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On the #amwriting podcast's Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, about how writers handle mishaps and self-talk when juggling book-related obligations. Hill describes accidentally booking two plane tickets to a Washington, DC conference, prompting a discussion about shifting the story from “I'm disorganized” to one of abundance and opportunity. Hill introduces Buddhism's “wise speech” filters—helpful, kind, timely, and true—and distinguishes guilt (which motivates clean-up and repair) from shame (which labels the self as bad and can paralyze writers). They share examples of painful feedback and feelings of insignificance, discuss the “worldly winds” (fame/insignificance, pleasure/pain, blame/disrepute, gain/loss), and conclude that choosing to “pay the price” of a busy, opportunity-seizing life can be healthier than spiraling into blame or defensiveness.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is Margin Notes, the place in the podcast where we talk about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.Jennie: And I'm here again with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, and we're gonna talk about a really interesting reality that you and I have both noticed, Diana, which is that when you're out there in the world with your book as a writer and you're juggling all the things, you're ... You have interviews, you're putting, you know, inquiries out, you're showing up for conferences or workshops or events or things, and sometimes things don't always go the way that you planned.Jennie: So today you have a little experience [00:01:00] with that, which is why we're even talking today.Diana: Well, it's, it's more like things don't go the way that I plan. It's more like I had no idea about my own plans because I'm juggling so much. Bec- I, I'm on my way to this pretty, uh, big conference in Washington, DC, and I'm going to present on a book that I wrote, uh, called I Know I Should Exercise, But: 44 Reasons Why We Don't Move and How to Get Over Them.Diana: And I'm going to present to a bunch of researchers and therapists about this sort of model of what gets in the way of us exercising. And I open up my American Airlines app and realize I have booked myself a ticket today and a ticket tomorrow. I bought two plane tickets to this conference without any awareness that I had already bought one.Diana: And so I had to decide, am I gonna go tomorrow or gonna go today? And, uh, I canceled and said, “Hey, I'd rather...” And I called you, I texted you right away, “Hey, I have an open af- afternoon. Do you wanna meet up, Jennie?” But this is the case, right? [00:02:00] W- when you have so much on your plate because you're, you are moving pieces around to make things happen, little bits of sand drop through the cracks.Diana: I think, yes, that's, that is a problem. But what's the bigger problem is how we treat ourselves after that or during that, or the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and our capabilities. I think I said, “I'm so disorganized,” and you said, “Oh, I'm so disorganized.” And then we said, “Wait a minute, maybe we need to change our script.”Diana: Right? Which is hilarious because that's what your entire book is about, is telling yourself a different story, not believing the first story that y- comes into your head, which is, oh, well, what happened was you told me that you did this and I laughed and I said, “Oh, I, I do things like that all the time. I c- I think of myself as a terribly disorganized person.”Diana: And that's when we both stopped and said, “Well, wait a minute. What would the other story here be?” So that's what- Yeah ... we thought we would talk about. Yeah. I often [00:03:00] think of the Lucille Ball episode when the chocolates are coming down the conveyor belt, and they start speeding up, and she's stuffing them in her bra, and she's stuffing it in her face, and they're, and they're flying off.Diana: And then you realize, well, wait a minute here, there's an abundance of chocolate coming your way. Like, this is, this may be a good thing, you know? Like, you have a conference that you're going to, or you have all these different opportunities that you're juggling. And we could start there with, uh, shifting to that type of a story, which is a story of there's so much ‘cause it's an experience of abundance.Diana: It's an experience of opportunities, of possibilities, which already shifts our mind into a different place. And you could notice that even in your body when you shift from, “I'm a disorganized mess,” to, “Oh, I have so many opportunities and possibilities right now.” Well, and what's interesting in your case is that you, it, it wasn't like you didn't have a plane ticket.Diana: You had two plane tickets. So in some ways there's a story of [00:04:00] you're quite organized. You were gonna get yourself to this conference no matter what. Or a story of I didn't trust myself, that I bought the plane ticket. So I had, I had to do it twice. But yes, I mean, the, the nature of the human mind is that it's a story-making machine, and actually everything that we experience comes through the, our, our mental filters, and we get to be the chooser of which stories are most helpful.Diana: In Buddhism, there's something called wise speech, and wise speech has these four qualities to it. The first quality is, is it helpful? The next one is, is it kind? The next one, which I think is a very useful one, is, is it timely? Like, is it a good time for m- for me to tell myself this story? Sometimes you might wanna tell yourself the story that you're disorganized and you need to go get organized.Diana: You need to, you know, clean stuff up, do a little , spring cleaning. But telling yourself that when you're in the middle of a ton of other things and now you have to deal with your low mood and feeling bad about yourself isn't helpful. And then the fourth [00:05:00] quality of wise speech is, is it true? Sometimes we do need to question, is it true?Diana: Is it not true? But most of the time, if we're getting all wrapped up with the, is it true? Is it not true? Am I disorganized or not? We're just doing black and white thinking, and it's m- usually more a little bit of both. That type of questioning our thoughts or questioning our stories and asking ourselves what would be the most helpful, what would be the most kind, what would be the most timely, and maybe what would be the most true, is a better angle to take with it, I think.Diana: I love that. I love that so much. I know another thing that happens when writers are juggling all the things is sometimes we, we drop one of the balls and w- we disappoint someone. So let's say in a different iteration of this that you actually were supposed to fly yesterday, and so you missed the conference.Diana: You know, that, that happens when you have a whole bunch of things going on, or you wrote the time wrong down for the podcast interview, or you missed [00:06:00] some critical deadline, and now you have on top of that like, “Oh, I, I let these people down. I said I was gonna show up, and I'm not.” Or, you know, what, what do we do when the disorganization leads to those kinds of thoughts?Diana: Mm-hmm. Well, if, if there is something you need to clean up, sometimes we do need to clean up. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of getting radically honest with ourself, and there's, there's t- two layers to that. Guilt is a, actually an emotion that we evolved as humans for a good reason, to clean stuff up. I made a mistake, I feel a little guilty, I go apologize.Diana: Um, I've, I had a, I gave, I did a white lie about something, I got caught, so I admit it. You know, whatever it is. That happened this morning. My son took my AirPod and he, he wouldn't fess up. And finally he fessed up. I'm like, “See, doesn't it feel better just to be honest?” Like, it's just be honest about it.Diana: But there's a, there's a distinction between guilt, [00:07:00] which motivates us to just, just to clean stuff up, and shame. Shame is I am bad. There's something wrong with me. I'm a bad person because I scheduled two flights or because I, you know, had, said a white lie to my mom for taking her AirPod. Shame is pretty detrimental, and it's the type of emotion that makes us climb back into a hole and not put ourselves out there.Diana: And as writers, we need to be putting ourselves out there a lot. We need to be making lots of mistakes. Maybe every once in a while feeling a little bit guilty for something that we need a course correction on, but we course correct and we move on, as opposed to shame of I am bad, and then we're paralyzed, frozen, and we go nowhere.Diana: Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, you're making me think of something that happened to me one time when I was out there promoting a book, and I had been invited to do the keynote speech at a big conference. And- There was a process in place where [00:08:00] my presentation was vetted. Like, I had to submit it and, um, and it was vetted and, and we were really clear on what I was talking about and what I was doing there vis-a-vis what some other of the speakers were doing.Diana: So there was this nice work on the whole presentation, and I felt really confident about what I was doing. And I, I did the, um, presentation and, and it was sort of s- short and, um, I thought it was awesome. And then I got feedback from the conference presenters that I had completely misunderstood my role, that I should have spoken three times longer than I had, that I had delivered something sort of thin and not what they were expecting and what they had hired me for.Diana: I, I just remember I... Actually, what I did was I gave the money back that they had paid me. [00:09:00] I felt so bad. I felt so shameful that I, that I said, “I, I can't take the money if, if it didn't go well. You know, I'm giving it back.” I was so freaked out about it. But as... This is years and years ago. As the years have gone by, I've thought about it a lot, and I've thought, it wasn't actually my fault.Diana: Like, I did i- all the steps that I did to make sure I was doing what I thought I was doing, and somehow I told the story that it was my... I did something bad. So- Yeah. Yeah ... that's kinda, that's what's coming up for me when you said that. Isn't that amazing? I think that that can be, um, our experience in so many different ways where we can fall into feeling bad, we can, um, we have experiences of feeling insignificant.Diana: I mean, especially when you're putting yourself out there, and we take one little thread of feedback, and it can destroy us, especially where that feedback is coming from. Because you're getting that feedback from the presenter, you know, whatever committee. The person who hired me, yeah. Who hired you.Diana: Imagine if w- if we went around and [00:10:00] we passed a microphone to the people in the audience. You would have been gotten a l- very different, you know, perspectives. And the, the question becomes, like, who, who am I doing this for? And, um, there was in- unclear communication. The last time I was at a big, uh, conference, uh, just a few months ago- I gave what I thought...Diana: It was on, on the book Wise Effort, and I gave what I thought was, like, the best talk I'd ever given, ever, on this. I was, I was flying high. I got great feedback. I thought it was, I thought it was pretty amazing. And it was- You're like, “I'm so good at this.” Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, “I, I finally nailed it.” Yeah. Like, so many times.Diana: I finally said it the way I wanna say it. And, and when I give these talks, I- there- I- a la Jennie Nash, I bring in a giant notepad and a Sharpie, and I sometimes I do these little one-on-one exercises with people in the audience demonstrating Wise Effort. Like, draw what it feels like in your body and, and then I hold up the notepad for everyone to see.Diana: And so it was the day after, I'm leaving the conference, and I had the notepad under my arm, and [00:11:00] I'm getting a coffee, and this guy comes up to me looking like a very stately psychologist. He comes up to me, um, in line and he's like, “Oh, did you go to the conference?” And I said, “Yes.” I said, “I...” And he said, “Oh, big notepad.”Diana: I said, “Yeah, actually, I presented yesterday.” And he said, “Oh, yeah, great. What did you present on?” And I said, “Well, I- uh, my name's Anna Hill. I presented on Wise Effort.” And he said- ... “Oh, I think I went to that workshop.”Diana: It sounds like it made a mark. Insignificance. Insignificance. And i- in Buddhism, there's something called the, um, the four worldly winds, which are the, the, the things that push... Or sometimes they say the eight worldly winds, but they're things that push us off our game, right? And they are fame and insignificance.Diana: Ah. When you're on either one of those, right, you're- you got, you got, you got a chance that you're gonna get knocked off. Another one is pleasure and pain. Another one is, um, blame and disrepute. Ooh. Ooh. Which is what you're talking about there, blame. I feel like I was blamed. It knocked me off. [00:12:00] And then the last one is gain and loss.Diana: Hmm. And so as writers, we're constantly, like, facing those winds, right? I get pr- I get, I feel famous, I feel insignificant. Oh, this is so great, so much pleasure. This sucks. This is the most painful thing I've ever been through in my life, right? Oh, I got the book deal. Ooh, it's with this, you know, kinda crappy publisher.Diana: So f- you know, all up and down, up and down, up and down. And the question becomes, I mean, back to the story of juggling all the things. If you're juggling all those things, where are your feet planted? Are you stable? Even, even if you're dropping stuff right and left. And that doesn't really matter if you're dropping stuff, if you feel planted in who you are, what you have to offer, you know?Diana: And yeah, you're gonna ... It's gonna go high and it's gonna go low, and you'll double book. Well, that's what I thought was remarkable about what you did today. You pivoted so fast. I think you texted me, might have been before 8:00 AM. You were just, just like, “I have a whole day.” You know, do, like you just started making meaning of your new [00:13:00] reality, which was you're not on an airplane today.Diana: You're on an airplane tomorrow, and it seemed like it took you no time at all to, like you said, your feet were so planted that you sort of just shook it off and moved on. Is, is that what it felt like? Yeah, it felt like carpe diem. You know? It was one of those, I was mad, I was disappointed, I was ... I, I hate those airline apps, and then I'm calling the airline.Diana: I was in the struggle for a little bit, and then, and then I just dropped it and said, “Okay, then what do I wanna do today?” So already today I, I've been to yoga, I went to I went to Savoy to get my favorite salad, I'm talking to Jennie Nash. I'm like, “This is a great day. I'm so glad I'm not in Washington DC.”Diana: Wait, is your favorite salad the kale blueberry? At Savoy? It's ... No. Yeah I go s- I go to the salad bar because they, I think they're the only salad bar that has like the, the most amazing salmon, like in the salad bar. Like, you can just like, you know, put wild salmon- Pile it on. Okay, okay ... yeah, pile it on. So that's what I do.Diana: Yeah. All right. We're talking about [00:14:00] a little deli in our town. Um- Down in Santa Barbara. You gotta go ... I mean, it does sound like a great day. And then- Yeah ... we're recording a podcast, ‘cause why not? So that, um, that's really instructive. You, you sort of let the struggle be, and, and then you said being solid on your feet and not spiraling into the blame, um, of it.Diana: Yeah. Choosing ... You know, you get to be the chooser of the story that you tell. And, um, and so, you know, choose, choose ones that are kind and ones that are, you know, for the most part true, but also ones that are helpful and timely. Yeah. And then when you do that, you can kind of n- weather stuff a little bit better I think.Diana: And I'm curious what happens if this kind of thing happens to you and other people say, “You're so disorganized. You need to slow down. You need to stop saying yes to so many things.” What do you say about that? ‘Cause that happened to you. Jennie, are you... I was gonna say, are you, are you only asking that because this happens to you?[00:15:00]Diana: Yes. Does this happen to you sometimes, Jennie? It happens to me all the time. What do you do when people ask you that? Oh, dang. You're putting it on me. Um, I usually totally take it in and think, “Oh yeah, there's something wrong with me. I should say, say no more often. I should go slower. I should, uh, should, should, should.”Diana: Mm-hmm. I do. That's what I tend to do. Yeah. And then what are the, the costs and consequences of that for you? I lose faith in my own knowing, my own intuition. I like to be busy, I like to be challenged, I like to have all the balls in the air. Um, and so I lose faith in that, and it doesn't feel good. Uh, then I, I also feel like I have to get defensive, um, why I do that.Diana: And, uh, so then I'll bring that defensiveness into my relationships. So it, it impacts me both inside and it impacts my [00:16:00] relationships. And then I think I second-guess the next time I say yes to something that feels like too much. So there's like- Mm ... a lot of repercussions. Mm-hmm. There's like dominoes falling from, from that.Diana: Mm-hmm. And then if I were to say, that happens to me, you know, what you just described in terms of people are telling me, “Diana, Diana, you're doing too much. You're taking on too much. You're, um, juggling too much. That's why you messed up the plane ticket. You need to be more organized”- Yeah ... what advice would you tell me?Diana: Gosh. Um I don't think that I would've gotten to where we got together. Um, I think, I think I might be a person who would say that, who would say, “Yeah, you're moving too fast. What are you, what are you doing?” Hmm. “Slow down. Take a minute.” I think I- Mm-hmm ... I think I might say that [00:17:00] to you. Mm-hmm. That was in fact the first thought that came through my head when you told me what happened to you.Diana: I was like, “She's doing too much. She's ta- she's got too many irons in the fire.” Mm-hmm. I put that... I did have that blame thought. Mm-hmm. Um- So it's a, it's a really interesting thing, this, you know, sort of the blame, or even if you're s- what you're saying has a, has a kernel of truth to it. When you tell it to somebody, you don't necessarily get back, “Oh, you're right, Jennie.”Diana: What you get back is what, what you just described, which I said, what are the costs and consequences to you? Well, I go into either self-blame, blame, or defensiveness, right? So the question becomes, if, if there's a kernel of truth or maybe there is a shift in, in, you know, I'm juggling too much, that's why I booked two plane tickets, yeah, you know.Diana: Um, or you're juggling too much and your friends are noticing it. There's also another kernel of truth in there, which is there's a reason why you're juggling all those things. Yeah. And, [00:18:00] and, and I would be... I'd actually go for that first. Hmm. So I would go for, in, in asking of you, uh, if I were your friend and I was noticing this, or if a friend were noticing it of you, to ask yourself, why am I juggling so much?Diana: Hmm. What is important to me? Like, what, what... You know, why are you so busy, Jennie? What's important to you? Oh, gosh. Um, I feel like I could answer that very easily. I hate missing opportunities, and the opposite of that is I love seizing opportunities. Things, really good things have come to me from... I'm gonna use the word impulsive, and there's a reason I'm using that word, but impulsive decisions.Diana: A lot of what I've built has, has come from that. I'm really good at that. Um, I think I'm good at juggling a lot of things. Uh, I like the feeling of, [00:19:00] uh, fast decision-making. I think I do better making decisions under pressure than I do when I have a lot of time. Yeah. So there's a lot of reasons why I like having a lot of irons in the fire.Diana: Mm-hmm. It doesn't scare me. It usually energizes me if I were, uh, able to do them all without the blame or the defensiveness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a quality I actually like about myself. Yeah. I, I, I've, I've gotten a sense of that from you, and there's also a bit of... And I'm willing to have the, I'm okay maybe more than some other people may be okay with having a little bit of that, you know- a, a tousled hair experience of things are kinda moving at me quickly, fast, you know?Diana: And, and there's a little bit of feeling like I'm kinda juggling too much. Like I- Yeah ... I'm willing to tolerate [00:20:00] that feeling because of these other things that you, that you care about. And the, it's the, it's the second arrow. It's the layer on top of the blame and defensiveness that is the problem, not necessarily the layer of, I juggle a lot, it's kind of a mess sometimes, and then it's also exhilarating and I, I, I, it's impulsive and, and I found that that's actually a secret to my success.Diana: Yeah. And there's, um, it's, there's a, there's a thing in psychology where they talk about, um, are you willing to pay the price? And what that means is like, you know, for example in, in a relationship, you're never gonna get everything that you want. Are you willing to- You're not ... you're, are you willing to pay the price of like, you know, he has all of these qualities, but then there's this aspect of him that wouldn't, you know, he has that too.Diana: Am I, am I willing for, because I love all of this, to also have that? Yeah. And if you love the intensity and the, um, uh, um, you know, the, [00:21:00] the level of feeling and impulsivity, then you have to be willing to pay the price of sometimes things being in that tousled hair state. And I'm, and I'm, I'm the same. You know?Diana: I don't, I'm not meticulous with things like plane tickets. Yeah. I don't spend my... Like, my husband, he would spend like, you know, double check, triple check, put in the code for everything kinda guy. Yeah. Make sure we don't have any credits. I'm like, I'm just... I'm just booking my flight ... No, what, what's the harm?Diana: What, what harm was done? Yeah. No one died.Diana: And I can pivot quickly, so it's fine. You know? And, and that's, so I'm willing to pay the price. I love that so much. So that's the story. The story is not, look at Diana, she's so chaotic. Look at Jennie, she's got too many irons in the fire. It's we've chosen to pay that price- Mm-hmm ... for being this way, for working this way, for moving through the world this way.Diana: I love that. Yeah. [00:22:00] Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Well, I feel like that is a great place to end, and you get to continue on with your great day, ‘cause it's still the afternoon, so who knows what will come out of this day for you. Maybe something good. Yeah, surprise. Thanks for joining us, and have a good, uh, conference.Diana: And for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.Diana: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:23:00] work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Stephanie Rupp (Hoffmann Eitle) and Ryan Phelan (Marshall Gerstein) explore how AI is reshaping medtech innovation and the IP strategies founders need to know. They break down key trends, from traditional model training to today's generative AI workflows, plus common pitfalls like novelty-destroying disclosures in pitch decks, websites, and investor conversations. Ryan explains why “file early” matters in the U.S. (and how provisional applications can backfire if they're too thin), while Stephanie shares how Europe's strict novelty rules and EPO “technical effect” requirements change how AI patents must be drafted. The conversation also covers cross-border collaboration, the Unified Patent Court, and why strong IP can become a startup's moat for investors and future growth. Guest links: https://www.marshallip.com | https://www.hoffmanneitle.com/ | rphelan@marshallip.com | srupp@hoffmanneitle.com  Charity supported: Save the Children Interested in being a guest on the show or have feedback to share? Email us at theleadingdifference@velentium.com.  PRODUCTION CREDITS Host & Editor: Lindsey Dinneen Producer: Velentium Medical   EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Episode 089 - Stephanie Rupp & Ryan Phelan [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi, I'm Lindsey and I'm talking with MedTech industry leaders on how they change lives for a better world. [00:00:09] Diane Bouis: The inventions and technologies are fascinating and so are the people who work with them. [00:00:15] Frank Jaskulke: There was a period of time where I realized, fundamentally, my job was to go hang out with really smart people that are saving lives and then do work that would help them save more lives. [00:00:28] Diane Bouis: I got into the business to save lives and it is incredibly motivating to work with people who are in that same business, saving or improving lives. [00:00:38] Duane Mancini: What better industry than where I get to wake up every day and just save people's lives. [00:00:42] Lindsey Dinneen: These are extraordinary people doing extraordinary work, and this is The Leading Difference.  Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Leading Difference podcast. I'm your host, Lindsey, and today I'm delighted to welcome as my guests Stephanie Rupp and Ryan Phelan. Stephanie's technical expertise stems from working in various fields of electrical engineering and information technology. She is particularly interested and experienced in communication technology, telecommunications engineering, and artificial intelligence due to her time at the university and various projects in the industry. For example, Stephanie gained industry experience with a leading technology company of measurement and high-frequency technology in the field of measurement technology for LTE. Working with a variety of clients from all over the world, Stephanie specializes in prosecution and oppositions at the European Patent Office and German Patent Office, freedom to operate, and patent drafting, in particular in the fields of computer-implemented inventions. Stephanie studied electrical engineering at the Technical University of Munich. She wrote her master thesis at the Chair of Communication Networks in the field of artificial intelligence with a focus on reinforcement learning. Ryan is a registered patent attorney who counsels and works with clients in all areas of intellectual property with a focus on patents. Clients enjoy Ryan's business-focused approach to IP. With an MBA from Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management, Ryan works with clients to achieve their business objectives, including developing and protecting their innovations and businesses with IP. Ryan has been published in several well-known IP publications, including World Intellectual Property Review, Bloomberg Law, and IP Litigator, and has spoken as a panelist at various IP conferences, including for the International Intellectual Property Law Association and for the University of Illinois Chicago Annual IP Conference. Since 2024, Ryan has been selected for inclusion in The Best Lawyers in America list in the practice of patent law. All right, Ryan and Stephanie, welcome to the show. I'm so glad that you are here. Ryan, this is your second time. Delighted to have you return, and Stephanie, I can't wait to learn more about you and all the ways that you both contribute to the industry. So thank you both so much for being here. [00:02:54] Ryan Phelan: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Glad to be back. [00:02:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. [00:02:56] Stephanie Rupp: And thank you v- very much for having me. [00:02:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, of course. Well, I would love, if you don't mind, starting off by sharing just a little bit about yourself, your background, and what led you to medtech. [00:03:09] Ryan Phelan: Yeah. So I'll kick it off. My name's Ryan Phelan. I'm a partner at Marshall Gerstein, which is an IP boutique here in Chicago. I have a computer science background, so I see the world through, you know, everything computers and, of course, nowadays that means AI. On the, the medtech side you know, I, I have, experience in robotics and so, a lot of medtech devices are in the robotics field, so it's very natural for me to apply my skill set, to that, area of expertise, one of which is, prosthetics. So you have a robotic, prosthetic medical device, and that lends itself to, you know, some type of computational control. And there's certain, legal issues that usually come up in, the US practice. So I enjoy, applying that skill set, to the, to medtech space. also, you know, family members als- have, you know, ailments and things that, I have, grown up with, you know, as a, you know, young boy and, now I'm very happy to you know, give back in my own way. I'm not a doctor. I'm just a-- I'm a, I'm a humble patent attorney, but, helping the, IP world, and, doctors and physicians, with not only, you know, in the robotic space, but also, software medical inventions as well, and I, enjoy working in this space. [00:04:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Love it. Thank you so much. Stephanie? [00:04:26] Stephanie Rupp: Yes. So as you hear from my accent, I'm from Germany, specifically from Munich, so that's a city in the southern part of Germany, close to the Alps. people might probably know Munich from the Oktoberfest that we have each year. And, so I'm a German and European patent attorney at Hoffmann Etile. I also throw it in as well, I'm also UPC representative, so we have, for three years now, we have the Unified Patent Court, so a really new court in Europe for centralized litigation for infringement and revocation actions. So I can also represent clients there. yeah, Hoffmann Etile is a, also a p- a IP boutique firm. not only in Germany, we also have offices, in other places in, Europe. And, yeah, my technical background is electrical engineering and information technology. And, during my studies, I just didn't work a lot in the medtech space. I was, ... my work concentrated more on the telecommunications side, working in a, bigger f- company that, concentrated on measurement and high-frequency technology. But, my master thesis was already about AI, so it was at the Chair of Communication Networks, and it was about, like, reinforcement learning, virtual network embedding. I won't say too much about that. I think it will bore the listeners. But so I didn't know at that time, but it opened my way to the medtech space afterwards. because when I joined Hoffmann Etile nine years ago with my training, the partners were really happy to hear that I have experience in the AI field and the technical background on that. And, around nine years ago, we saw a lot of patent applications being filed in the AI space, like using AI technology in different technical fields, and especially also in the medtech, field. And, so I had the opportunity to jump in there, like, right away when I started and was really happy to do that and also, like, still very glad to have that opportunity to work with the medtech, companies and to get the best patents for them in that, especially in that field. [00:06:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you both. So, all right. I have so many questions, but I will start here. I'll just, 'cause I'm curious. So how, how did you two meet? Do the firms come together and, and, collaborate? [00:06:38] Ryan Phelan: Yeah, absolutely. so Marshall, Gerstein and Hoffmann, Eitel had a relationship prior with, attorneys, that go back a generation or two, before Stephanie and I met. And so, their-- one firm would send attorneys to the other and vice versa. And then, after a while, given that Stephanie and I have similar backgrounds, it was very, simple just to connect us. And then we've worked together on matters, before and have similar backgrounds like Stephanie mentioned. She has electrical background, but has done a lot of stuff with AI. And so whenever you're doing, matters across the pond, as they say, you need expertise, in the EPO and the US and the laws are different, so you have to collaborate. And it's great to have, have people that you can collaborate and work with. [00:07:21] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah, and a lot of clients, they're not only interested in getting an EP patent, but they also want to get a US patent. And, I'm not a US patent attorney, so, usually tell them, "Oh, yeah, I know a really good patent attorney in the US." And, thank you ... so I will, like, hand over the work to him and then the other way around if they have, like, clients that they want to get a EP patent, and that's how we work together and, also dis-discuss these cases together. And, so yeah, I'm currently in Chicago for a week, also to meet Ryan in person again. I do that, usually once a year. And, yeah, just have time to discuss some cases more regularly. [00:07:55] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That's cool. [00:07:56] Ryan Phelan: Yeah, I was in, And I was in beautiful Munich last year, so it was, it was great. [00:08:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. That's wonderful. Okay. So again, so many things to talk about, but I, I, I'm curious in your interpretation of how AI has affected, especially the legal components of, say, filing a patent or IP protection or all of those things. When it comes to medtech founders, what are you seeing the trends to be, and also, what are some of the pitfalls to avoid? [00:08:29] Ryan Phelan: Yeah. So I've seen AI affect everything from filing strategy or information, gathering, like on the pre-stage of a patent, and then also, the invention itself, has also included AI. I think about it as like AI 1.0 and 2.0. before, 1.0 AI is, a lot of software inventions would train their own models with their own data. Maybe you have a, a cardio, application or something like that, that would use existing, information from patients and, that information, would be used to train a model, and that model would be able to output some type of response for a future patient. Maybe that model was inside of a device that was, implanted or, put on top of, a patient where that sensor data would be collected.  Nowadays, in, in tho-those inventions, usually incorporated some type of trained model. Nowadays, you have a lot of generative AI, where newer inventions are using out-of-the-box models from OpenAI, ChatGPT models, or Anthropic's Claude models. And, a lot of the same issues are still being addressed, where data will, will come from various sources, whether it's a patient's data or clinician's, or maybe it's, a diagnostics or maybe it is more in the robotic space for, prosthetics. But that data is now, instead of being pushed into more traditional models that would be trained, is now being used by these generative, LLMs. And then you can have combinations of the two. So it's, become an explosive field in AI at least from what I have seen. People are getting excited that you have these large treasure troves of data that you can synthesize, the information inside of it and then get some type of, useful output, and then you also have inventors that are seeking solutions, asking, LLMs to help find a particular solution, and they'll add to it. And our invention disclosures that we get, I, I typically joke and say, "Used to, it was hard to get an invention disclosure from an inventor." They would send you, like, a paragraph or two of the invention, and you'd be, "Well, is there anything else?" And now it's, they'll send you 100 pages of stuff. And like, "Well, let's, well, let's talk about what's relevant. Let's find the needle in the haystack here." So AI is, is influencing all sides of the invention from when it's coming in the door and then how, how, what the invention makeup is itself and how that's gonna be protected in the future. I, I see a lot-- In, in the future, I, I can predict or hopefully predict, there's gonna be, a lot of litigation or a lot of, like, questions about who owned what in the future for patents. So that's, that'll be interesting to see, too. [00:11:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Absolutely. [00:11:07] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah- I think what I just want to add is, that it also changes how we work. I think in the past it was, so we had, like, these different departments. We had mechanics, e-tech, biotech, chemistry, and it was, like, very clear when you get a new patent, like an invention disclosure in which department you will push it and, like, who will work on that. But now we have, like, more these interdisciplinary inventions especially, like, in medtech, pharmaceutical companies that are using AI and, and that also changes how we work, that we are trying to then find a interdisciplinary team as well, having, like, patent attorneys from different technical backgrounds, because I'm looking at a invention disclosure differently than a patent attorney with a chemistry background. And, so that makes very interesting for us as well, 'cause we have to work together and, that's why sometime I get a call from the biotech department saying, "Oh, we have a invention disclosure with a lot of AI in there. Could you maybe help us out?" And, so that, yeah, it, like, changes our way of working in there as well. That makes it very interesting. [00:12:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's very interesting, and I actually love that. It seems like a lot of, ability to learn from each other in that way, and so yeah, I love that exposure. So, okay, when it comes to filing patents, and protecting your IP in general, I'm, I'm curious what your advice is for, for founders that maybe have, like, basically timeline, when should they be thinking about engaging with you all, and h- how do they go about that? Just what is, especially for these younger startup founders, what's some advice that you just, you go, "Okay, now's the time. Here's what we need," and, and whatnot? [00:12:51] Ryan Phelan: Yeah, I always advise as early as possible. Okay. usually it's-- usually most founders or startups are not thinking about patents in the beginning. But, you know, I always like to, to tell them when, when I'm speaking to a founder of a startup, think about it as insurance or similar to insurance, because at the end of the day, if you become very successful with your, medtech product, whatever it may be, people are gonna wanna copy you. [00:13:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:13:13] Ryan Phelan: And, that, that's probably not only important to you, but also to your investors, if you have them. If, like, you're seeking money from others, whether it be seed money, angel money, or series A, series B the, these people are probably gonna ask you what's your moat, what's your, what's your barrier to entry for others, so if your product, takes off, because they're thinking in terms of, "How much money will I get back if I invest?" It's gonna be s- 20x. And so, it-- they know, and the startup founders should also be aware that if somebody else comes into the market, especially a big player, and they, replicate your product or your software, then that could take market share from you. And so having a patent or building that patent portfolio at the same time, it protects you, from that. It also, of course, there's times, timing, that you have to be mindful of. As soon as you disclose something in the US, it kicks off a, a one-year clock... [00:14:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Hmm ... [00:14:04] Ryan Phelan: ...for you to file something. Just to get an invention in the US, and Stephanie, can let you know about, you know, elsewhere- Mm-hmm ... and in the EU, I understand that there's an absolute bar. Yeah. But for that reasons, for that timing purpose of when someone discloses your invention, and that can be a part of a pitch deck to a set of in- investors, if you don't have a non-disclosure a- agreement, an NDA, then that could also start that clock ticking. So you wanna be mindful. Do this in parallel at the same time, seeking to get your, patent, at least a provisional patent, on file before you go forward. [00:14:37] Stephanie Rupp: Okay. Yeah, as Ryan said, at the, in Europe, we don't have this kind of this year to file a application. Once you publish something, then it's out on, out there in the world and, endangers your own patent application. Because if you want to get a patent the claimed subject matter needs to be novel and inventive. And if you have, like, published this before, then that's prior art with respect to your own patent application. So you always have to keep that in mind and, that's why it's so important to file the patent application first before you use that information for advertisement, for example. And I, we see that often, with startups, and I complete- completely understand. They're super excited with regard to their, like, great idea, and they want to shout it out to the world. But once it's out there that hinders you to get a patent. so- As Ryan said, it's good to think about patents from the beginning and also, the market you're interested in, maybe about competitors and where they're in, which countries they're involved, and then you could also think about, okay, maybe, that is a market of your interest, and then also get advice from patent attorneys in that country because it's different from which d- like, from jurisdiction to jurisdiction how to get a patent, and you want to get the broadest patent as possible. And, especially with AI inventions, where they're the requirements are so different in the different countries, it's, good to have the advice from the beginning on so the patent application is written in the right way. Because once the patent application is filed, we cannot add anything anymore, or we cannot change it. That's why it's, like, good to have really a, like, a well-written patent application also for the jurisdiction you want to go in. [00:16:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Yeah. Thank you both. That was really insightful. I'm, I'm curious about the patent application itself. Is there-- Well, two questions, I suppose. Is there also a kind of provisional patent opportunity outside of the US, just out of curiosity, as, as well as in the US? And then also, you know, you mentioned being very careful and cognizant about the way that it is written, which of course now you two being experts in this, you know, back, you know, like the back of your hand. But I wonder, if people try to do it themselves. I would love just to hear some advice about that as well. [00:17:06] Ryan Phelan: Yes. Stephanie, do you wanna talk about the provisional outside the US and- [00:17:09] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah. So in Europe, we don't have that provisional applications or non-provisional applications. what you have though is the priority year. So you can, like file an application, for example, first in Europe, and then you have a year to decide which other countries you want to go to, and then claim priority from that European patent application. So, I file a EP application, then after a year I think, okay, I want to go in other countries, I want to maybe file it, one in the US, then you can claim the priority from there. And the previous patent application that you filed will not endanger the other patent application. So that's one way of doing it, to buying yourself a little bit of time. Also, sometimes clients when they're like very cost sensitive, especially for startups, would first think, okay, we file a patent application first to Europe, and you get a, a search report within the priority year from the EPO. And then you already know the prior art that is out there, and you can assess how strong your patent application is, and then you can still decide, how to proceed from there. So there are like some ways of how you could do that. [00:18:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Thank you. [00:18:22] Ryan Phelan: Yeah. In the US, of course, we have provisional applications. It, it causes a great, amount of confusion, though, the provisional applications. A lot of startup companies will think that they can file a provisional application and it'll be, you know, a page or two in length, and then they can wait a year and inflate that to 20 pages or, or something like this. And of course, the, the trap for the unwary is, of course, if the claims, when you draft those for the non-provisional or the conversion application, if they are not grounded in that first provisional application, if one element of one of the independent claims, for example, is, s- solely supported by the new material added in the, the new, you know, 20 pages or whatever it may be, then the support gets you the date of your non-provisional conversion filing and not of the provisional. So, usually for startup clients, I have to-- we ta- we have this conversation called the delta. What's the delta between your provisional and your non-provisional? If there's a lot of it, then, that could be a problem because if your claims aren't supported by the text of that provisional application, you're not gonna get that original date. And so, usually that kicks off a conversation of how much of a provisional that you want, or do you just wanna go all non-provisional. Now, I do litigation as well, and I can tell you, the, the, the pitfall is if you file that provisional and you file a non-provisional later and you end up getting that later date, if there is intervening prior art in between, the provisional date and the non-provisional date, that comes before your non-provisional date, that could invalidate your patent despite your provisional. And there's, parties debate this. They, excuse me, fight about this in court all the time. Now, did you have sufficient written description and enablement in your provisional application in order to substantiate your claims later? And if they can find intervening prior art between that year or whatever the time may be, that can be a real problem. So, I, I always c- I always tell clients, like, the, the more you can file up front, the better, because you're gonna get more support or more, possibility to have that support earlier in time. Of course, it takes more work. Most startups don't like to hear that, but it is, but it is the truth, and it does, it does protect them against that insurance policy. You, you add it up front. Like Stephanie said, you wanna, put that information, on file before you go out and do your advertising and marketing. That's also true in the US. Just filing a provisional application, does not in and of itself somehow protect you if, if you don't, if you don't say what it is that you're trying to protect. [00:20:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense, and thank you so much for that insight. So you mentioned a couple of times that sort of disclosure component, and so just to d- just be very specific about that whole thing you mentioned that could be-- that could look like even just a, a pitch deck where you think it's potentially within a, a private setting thing. Of course, I would imagine that also extends to talking about it on social media or a website or something like that. So I'm just curious what are some of the things that you see besides maybe perhaps the broader, more obvious, like a website, what are some of those things that you see that people don't think to, be aware of, I guess? [00:21:34] Ryan Phelan: Yeah. I've seen websites. It's super easy to create a website nowadays. You can ask ChatGPT or Claude to generate a website, and if you're putting your invention out in a website form before you file a patent, that could be a novelty-destroying disclosure. if you have a detailed pitch deck that you give to, potential investors without some type of control, like an NDA, that could also be a novelty form of disclosure. Like in the US, for litigation, I, I can tell you one of the questions that always gets asked in discovery is, "Did you disclose this prior to the, the filing date?" And, if that person, that person will be required to answer under oath, and if they're, "Yes, I had a website," or, "I, I gave this pitch deck to 50 people for investing," usually that's a problem because that--the opposing side that's defending against that patent will do a, a deep analysis and, and look-- and try to find when that was disclosed, and does it map up to the claims, and that could, create a problem with, validity in the US. [00:22:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Oof. That's no fun. That's why they should talk- Yeah ... to you early and often. [00:22:37] Ryan Phelan: Yeah. Yes. Again, another example of filing early, you know, eliminates some of those issues. i-in fact, I tell a lot of the startup companies or any, any client, like, before you go out there and, you know, have your conference or your, your pitch, then file. Most sophisticated clients know this, but a lot of times startups do not. [00:22:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, and if you're a first-time founder or something like that, you wouldn't-- you don't know what you don't know for many different categories, so I can see why that is so critical. Yeah. Okay. So, I was wondering if both of you could talk a little bit about maybe, maybe a moment that has stood out to you as, as you've worked, especially with-within medtech and, and working with some of these founders. Are there any moments that really stand out as just affirming that, "Wow, I, I am doing the right thing in the right industry at the right time"? [00:23:28] Stephanie Rupp: Shall I start? Yeah. yes, I, I've-- So for me it was, like, never the plan to become a patent attorney and, and, like, never had that in mind. And, so it was more of a coincidence that I stumbled upon that and did the training and became a patent attorney and... But I still remember my first day in the office and having the feeling of, "Yes, I think that's what I want to do for the rest of my life." Like, continue learning, like, having, like, this incredible opportunity to speak with so many great inventors. Having, like, I don't know, it's always amazing, to see how their mind works and that they're, like, finding solutions for s- like, very complex problems. And, so that, like, from the day, first day on, I had, like, the feeling, okay, I think I can really help here and, protect their asset the best way possible. And then especially within the medtech field, I think what Ryan also said in the beginning, there's like, it's also for me, sometimes it's a kind of s- scary part thinking about, okay, what if you get sick at one point, or like from closer family that got really sick, and, having like this helpless feeling like that you maybe can't change anything here. And then when you work with the medtech industry and you see that they are working on that problem and have these great idea- to help people to like, that there's also k- some kind of involvem- like involvement in this technology. And, so for example, I, there's like one of my clients, they are, working on histological images and analyzing them also with respect to cancer types, and how AI can be such a great help there. And of course, there are like a lot of these discussions about, how we should be careful with the new technology and how we could re- regulate that and stuff like that, but there's also like so much good in there that can really help people's lives. And I think that's like for me, always very nice that yes, Ryan said we're no doctors. So like, we're just like patent attorneys, but still we could contribute a little bit to that too. Yeah. [00:25:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Love it. [00:25:35] Ryan Phelan: Yeah. I would just, I would just echo everything that Stephanie said. That certainly is why I enjoy working in this space too, is, you, you feel like you have a, a little bit of contribution that you make. [00:25:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Absolutely. I, I couldn't agree more. I think, to your point, Stephanie, it's, it's so inspiring to see the innovation that's coming out, and it makes you feel like, especially when there's difficult world news, it makes you think, "Okay, but at least there are still these change makers who are really trying to make the world a better place and, and improve patient lives." And I think that's just a, a wonderful thing to get to witness and be a, a part of. It helps the soul. So, I'm always curious about the personal side of things as well. So just what are, what are some of the things that you all en- enjoy doing, say, outside of work? maybe some hobbies or volunteering or interests and things like that. What are... Let's, let's talk about the people as well behind these amazing patent attorneys. [00:26:36] Ryan Phelan: Yeah. everybody has a hobby, so I, I was, I like to run. I was running since high school, so I like to do that. And then, in the winter I like to ski. and then I'm, recently getting my scuba cert, with my daughter. So we're having a good time doing that this summer. So just trying to stay busy and active. I like to learn always, and so I, I, I love learning, I guess. and one of the reason why medtech is interesting to me 'cause I like to apply that, computer science skill to, the medtech field and continuously learn, in that space and also give back, like we talked about before. So, yeah, I guess I would lump in learning as one of my hobbies as well. I like... I, I'll say, and I, I'm not sure if we'll get into this later I think you had a question about, poss- if we, if we could teach one class or- No, we'll get into that ... [00:27:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Something like that. Yeah. [00:27:22] Ryan Phelan: Yeah, okay. I'll, I'll save that for a later time. So. [00:27:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Yes. Excellent. Stephanie? [00:27:28] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah, I think that's, one common thing that we have, Ryan and I. It's, skiing. That's also what I enjoy a lot. so as I said, I'm from Munich, and it's very close to the Alps, so it takes us only, like, about, like, two hours to go to Austria. and so, but I really enjoy going there for the weekend, clearing my mind. Yeah, especially when the week was very busy with work. so it's like, thinking about something else. And, besides that, yeah, spending time outside, going hiking at the weekend, like when it's... there's no snow. Also, I picked up some hobbies that I had when I was younger. So for example, I had, piano classes for, like, when I was five years old, and then once I had, like, the training and everything else going on, paused that because, like, so much else going on. But then last few years I, taught myself, "Oh yeah, it would be such a waste not to do that anymore." And, so I'm, like, started playing piano again. I'm not good in it. It's more really as a hobby. And, but yeah doing something else in the evening and clearing my mind. So that's what I usually like to do as well. [00:28:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That's wonderful. I, yes, I, I understand that sometimes picking up a hobby that you sort of set aside for a while is really fun as an adult, 'cause you have a different way of interpreting that learning, back to your point, Ryan, of how it, it it changes. And I, I actually really enjoy that, of, of revisiting something where I might have thought g- especially growing up. Like for instance, I remember thinking I just could not paint for the life of me, like it was never gonna happen. And then as an adult, with a, an instructor who was... maybe s- spoke a slightly different, in a different way, and then getting to like go, "Oh, maybe I can" is always a nice thing to learn too. But anyway. [00:29:17] Stephanie Rupp: And also taking, taking the pressure out of it. Yes. So it's like, as I said, like piano class is just a hobby. I don't have to be good in it. It's just should give me some joy in it. And so yeah. [00:29:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Love that. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So now you've both been in positions of leadership, and I'm curious, and, and I know it's hard to boil it down to maybe one thing, but what is one or two, three things that you would say is your top leadership advice, especially for those who maybe are more in, middle management trying to continue to build their leadership skills? And what, what makes a good leader, in your mind, and then maybe what's one or two pieces of advice? [00:30:02] Ryan Phelan: Yeah. What makes a good leader in my mind is something that somebody that can lead by example, I guess. On like a first project or a new client or a new matter, I like to do it, do it myself once so I can go through it and, get the feeling for the new technology, that may be at play or the new matter, maybe the client's preferences whether it's a startup or a large company. And then once I have that kind of lead from the front, then I like to do, I guess, a military word, dis- decentralized command, which is get people that I trust and who I have a great assistant. I have attorneys that I work with European attorneys such as Stephanie, and then give them work with them and give them free reign and control, whether it's a colleague like Stephanie or a associate here at Marshall Gerstein to, work with the client or have agency over, what they do, 'cause I think it can also teach in that capacity, like things that I learned from the lead from the front can flow, down or through or out and then, that person can also learn on the job doing it themselves. I believe that, people doing, instead of just listening is the, a best way to learn for them and then also get better. And so I, I tend to approach, leadership, from that perspective. [00:31:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Love that. Yeah. Stephanie? [00:31:15] Stephanie Rupp: Yes. I see myself like still more at the beginning of my career, so I can, talk a little bit more of how I, see or like, yeah, see leadership or like, how I experience it. Yeah. it's more also I... like everything what Ryan said, I completely agree. And also like seeing the person behind that. It's like everyone is like very busy, especially when you're in leadership positions and, very busy schedules and, But also seeing the person as a whole- Mm ... and how could you like support them to be better, to grow and, how to also, yeah- lead them or like, yeah, lead them in the way they w- where they want to be at some point. And, I think that's, yeah, what you should not forget e- especially when you have a really busy schedule. That's it. [00:32:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. The, the person behind... Yeah. That, that's an interesting theme that continues to come up, time and time again, is, you know, if one of the tricks to being a good leader is to care. It seems so straightforward, but it's if you care about the person and you, you want the best for them, you are going to naturally be a better leader because you're investing in them and, and in their success and goals, and, it's, it's just cool to see. Okay, and then, all right, I'm just going to pivot the conversation a little bit for fun, and this is where exactly what you were referring to earlier, Ryan. So if you were to be offered a million dollars to teach a master class on anything you want, could be in your industry, but doesn't have to be, what would you choose to teach? [00:32:58] Ryan Phelan: I would teach a class called Patenting Software Inventions and, I'm actually currently teaching that class. Oh. they're not-- I'm not getting paid a million dollars to do it, unfortunately. [00:33:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Dang. [00:33:07] Ryan Phelan: But, but it is a, a, a passion and a love. I teach it at, Northwestern Law, where I went to law school. I-- it's, it's my pleasure and joy every year to go back. I teach a power course there every year, I think for the past eight years on, teaching students how to patent software inventions in the US, and I think, elsewhere there's a, you know, there has become, by at least some people, the belief that you can't patent software, you know, which of course is, not true. And so, you know, I teach methodologies in my class about how to, patent software inventions in the US using you know, guidance from the courts, from the Supreme Court, from the Federal Circuit, from the district courts here, in the US. A lot of it covers, things such as Section 101 you know, that changed, in 2014, from the Supreme Court's decision in Alice v. CLS, and how to address, issues, about what the, the court said there. And then also what later courts, the Federal Circuit, said that they wanted to see in order to overcome, Section 101 issues, in the US. A lot of times, too, it's interesting, we have, like, a small slide like that, that deals with EPO-- which Stephanie's much more adept than, than I am-- but what we tell our students is, and maybe Stephanie can address this, is that, you know, there seems to be a convergence, between Section 101 law and, something called a technical effect, an EPO, where it seems like both jurisdictions are wanting to see more of a technical disclosure incorporated into the application rather than just kind of claiming functionally or a high level language. So you need to be very careful in crafting these applications so there's-- they're successful when you're in front of the the patent office in the US. And if you, you do it right, you can, create, you know, not only a US-centric application, but one that might, withstand, the strictures of the EPO. In my opinion, I think that the EPO can sometimes-- and maybe this is just me being a US practitioner-- but the EPO can be somewhat more difficult, to get a patent, application. Maybe Stephanie would disagree and say it's the other way around, but but it's always good, and clients usually, even if they're not thinking about it, to have an application that could survive both places 'cause they tend to be, I think, the, the two more, more difficult, if not most difficult jurisdictions in the world to get a patent application. And if you go into it knowing and how to craft a patent application and you're ready, and you put into that application the right, material, then you can be successful. [00:35:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Stephanie, what would you teach? [00:35:44] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah, maybe we, Ryan and I, could do a master class together then because he said, like, then we could explain the similarities or the differences between, US patent law and European patent law, and can also maybe, also add something about the UPC that we have now, the U- Unified Patent Court, and have a, maybe a lively discussion about all of that and, how to get the strongest and broadest, patent in the different jurisdictions. And as Ryan said, there are, like, some similarities, and I also have the feeling when I discuss with Ryan that, when we have a patent application where we struggle to get a patent on, then we usually also struggle with that in the US- Mm-hmm ... or the other way around. And, but of course, there are, like, differences in how the EPO and how the USPTO, like examine these AI inventions and, in the US you have these 101 objections that you usually get. In, Europe it's, they apply the so-called two hurdle approach where they, especially the second hurdle is usually harder to overcome. Mm. And that's also what, Ryan mentioned, is that you have to show the EPO that your AI invention or your AI steps contribute to the technical character of the invention. And that's, often, and I totally understand that, hard to grasp for an inventor because they think we have all these technical means here. We have a server, we have a processor, we have a memory, we have sensors getting data. Do you tell me now that that's not technical? [00:37:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Mm. [00:37:19] Stephanie Rupp: And, but that's not how the EPO thinks. It's, for them, they say, "What is your motivation for that invention?" Or, or in other, more their words, "What kind of technical problem you try to solve?" [00:37:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Mm. [00:37:34] Stephanie Rupp: And that is, what we also usually ask the inventors in our f- like, first meetings with them, "What is the technical problem you're trying to solve with that, and how does the, your AI steps, your method steps contribute to that?" Because that's, if you cannot show that to the EPO, then it's very hard to get a patent on. so maybe my combined master class- yeah ... where we show that and- It, [00:37:59] Ryan Phelan: It would- ... [00:38:00] Stephanie Rupp: Explain that, yeah. So ... [00:38:01] Ryan Phelan: Definitely it would, it would help out my meager EPO slide, any additional information on this, especially the, the UPC, which I'm glad you mentioned. But, maybe, we could take a minute to talk about the UPC and in, in the European area since that's like a new, newer, from what I understand, a newer avenue, the era approach in Europe. [00:38:20] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah. Yeah. It's, so as I said, we have, like, for now three years now, the, Unified Patent Court. And, before that we also had European patents, but once it was granted, was divided into national patents. So if you wanted to, file an infringement action or a nullity action, you had to do that in each specific country. And that made it very complicated because I, I'm a German patent attorney. I don't know anything about Italian law, so you would then need an Italian patent attorney or French and so on. So it was, like, very complicated. And, so what we now have, and that is, like, very exciting to live at that time now, is, the Unified Patent Court, where it's, like, now centralized and you can attack patents at the, like, Unified Patent Court, like, for the whole patent, and you don't have to go to these before the national courts anymore. And, so that's, like, very exciting for us as well because case law is evolving now and, there's, yeah, you can see how, like, how it changes and how the judges are handling these cases and it's, like, also very, like, for us, a lot of new things to learn. [00:39:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:39:32] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah. [00:39:33] Ryan Phelan: Yeah, I was gonna say, I, I also heard, and, Stephanie can certainly chime on this, that certain cities in Europe, like Paris, or Munich, may have different judges that specialize in different arts or disciplines. I think, was it, w- what Munich was, I can't remember, is that the mechanical or- Yeah. [00:39:49] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah. So that's, like, for the central division, but we also have then local divisions- Mm-hmm ... as well. So we have, four local divisions in Germany, but also in other countries. And that also, changes, of course, a little bit of how they handle the cases because the judges, they often came from the, like, the national courts. So they, like, when you're in Germany, of course, they still have little bit, little bit more of the German thinking in them. When you're going to a Dutch, local division, then they have a little bit of, like, another, like, view on that. And I think over time it will, like, unify a little bit. but these are, like, also differences that, makes it very interesting, to see. [00:40:27] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. Okay, so next question is, how do you wish to be remembered after you leave this world? [00:40:35] Ryan Phelan: I hope that people remember me as, somebody that was fun, like to, you know, either work or hang out with that regardless of whether we're working hard or, you know, playing hard, that, that it was just fun. So that, that's my only wish. So or, or main wish. [00:40:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Love it. Steph? [00:40:52] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah, I think for me that I was maybe, like, a fair and trustworthy person. I think it sounds a little bit boring, but, more when people work with me and they, like, say, "Oh, when she gave me advice, I knew that she had, like, my best interest in mind as well, and not only, like, filling her own pockets or, like, trying to, like, improve it for herself, but having like..." Yeah, when they remember me of a person that you could trust with the advice, I think that would be, like nice to know for me. Yeah. [00:41:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, for sure. All right. Excellent. And then final question. What is one thing that makes you smile every time you see or think about it? [00:41:37] Ryan Phelan: I guess just sticking with our current theme, if in a work capacity, when a client gets a victory of some type certainly makes me smile. A lot of clients are happy when they get their patents allowed, or if you win that litigation case or you, you do things, a lot of times in the US we'll, we'll have these decisions or these patents, and it it, it, it makes me smile to think that, you know, I helped their business in that way to protect their, their IP and just going forward. I, I imagine it's a pretty standard answer, but, you know, certainly in the context of this podcast, that's absolutely one thing that makes me happy. [00:42:10] Stephanie Rupp: Mm. Yeah. I'm a person, I get excited very quickly or, like, really small things make me smile already. So I arrived on Saturday in Chicago, and I, for example, didn't expect to have a gym in the hotel, and then suddenly I discovered that and was really happy about that. So these are these small things that other people say, "Oh, yeah, whatever." but I think what makes me smile the most is, like, knowing that I have a weekend ahead of me with, like, my family and my partner, and we go ski. And I say that now we have, like, summer outs and, like, very warm temperature here in Chicago. I think it's about 80 degrees, and I'm already thinking about skiing and snow, but it's, more of... [00:42:52] Ryan Phelan: It's never too early. [00:42:53] Stephanie Rupp: Yeah. But more of, like, not the skiing per se, but just having time with family and- yeah ... clearing my mind and stuff like that. So, yeah. [00:43:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Excellent. Well, thank you both so much for being here. I've so enjoyed the conversation, and you gave so much amazing advice and guidance, so thank you so very, very much for all of that. If folks who should be looking out for services such as yourselves, how do they get in touch with you? [00:43:25] Stephanie Rupp: I think like through the website, that, I think will be- mm-hmm published, with the, podcast. And, also my email address as well. You can find me on the website, or we can also add it to the, to the podcast info. yeah. [00:43:38] Ryan Phelan: What is your... [00:43:38] Stephanie Rupp: It's the easiest ... [00:43:38] Ryan Phelan: What is your email address, Stephanie? [00:43:41] Stephanie Rupp: It... Hopefully I say it correct now. It's, S for Stephanie, S Rupp, my, last name, @hoffmanneitle.com, so very easy. Yeah. [00:43:53] Ryan Phelan: Perfect. Excellent. Yeah, same thing for me. I believe the contact information will be at the with the podcast, but I can be reached at RPhelan R-P-H-E-L-A-N @marshallip.com, and welcome any questions or comments. [00:44:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, thank you both so much again for your time today. We really appreciate it. We are so honored to be making a donation on your behalf as a thank you for your time today to Save the Children, which works to end the cycle of poverty by ensuring communities have the resources to provide children with a healthy, educational, and safe environment. So thank you so much for choosing that charity to support, and also thank you for continuing to work to change lives for a better world. Love learning about you, about your areas of expertise, and just really appreciate you, being willing to share with us. So thanks again, and, I suppose until next time. [00:44:51] Ryan Phelan: Thank you. Love to come back. [00:44:53] Stephanie Rupp: Thank you. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much. [00:44:55] Dan Purvis: The Leading Difference is brought to you by Velentium Medical. Velentium Medical is a full service CDMO, serving medtech clients worldwide to securely design, manufacture, and test class two and class three medical devices. Velentium Medical's four units include research and development-- pairing electronic and mechanical design, embedded firmware, mobile app development, and cloud systems with the human factor studies and systems engineering necessary to streamline medical device regulatory approval; contract manufacturing-- building medical products at the prototype, clinical, and commercial levels in the US, as well as in low cost regions in 1345 certified and FDA registered Class VII clean rooms; cybersecurity-- generating the 12 cybersecurity design artifacts required for FDA submission; and automated test systems, assuring that every device produced is exactly the same as the device that was approved. Visit VelentiumMedical.com to explore how we can work together to change lives for a better world.

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast is made in the USA. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.About CaberfaeOwned by: The Meyer FamilyYear founded: 1937Pass affiliations:* Ikon Pass: 2 days, blackouts* Freedom Pass: 3 days, no blackouts Base elevation: 1,076 feetSummit elevation: 1,561 feetVertical drop: 485 feetSkiable Acres: 200Average annual snowfall: 120 inchesLift count: 5 (1 fixed-grip quad, 3 triples, 1 carpet – view Lift Blog's inventory of Caberfae's lift fleet)The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO; also since Tim and Pete were on one screen, the transcript does not differentiate between them).Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the storm. I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Thursday, September 17th, 2026, and we are going to mix things up a little bit today. Instead of starting with the takes, we are starting with the guests, and I have some great guests today.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:40.000Stuart Winchester: They are the general managers of Cabrifay Peaks, Michigan, with over 200 acres of terrain served by 4 chairlifts across 3 peaks, with a 485-foot vertical drop.00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.000Stuart Winchester: Cabar Fay is one of the largest ski areas in Michigan's Lower Penins.00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:49.000Stuart Winchester: The ski area averaged 120 inches of lake effect snowfall per winter.00:22:49.000 --> 00:23:06.000Stuart Winchester: Their family has operated Cabaret since 1980. They are co-general managers, with Tim Meyer on the right, handling everything on the mountain, and Pete Meyer on the left, taking care of everything off. Tim and Pete, welcome to the storm. I'm always hyped to talk Cabaret. How are you guys doing today?00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.000Pete Meyer: Good. We're doing awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah.00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and trigger warning for any Sparties or Buckeyes out there who want to go to the video version on stormskiing.com or YouTube. Me and Tim are both proudly rocking our Wolverines gear. This is a shirt I wore to the maze out when Michigan blasted Oklahoma in the big house this past weekend. So we're feeling.00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:31.000Stuart Winchester: Although I understand Tim's also got a little Sparty, side loyalty.00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.000Pete Meyer: Yes, my children, both my sons are Spartans, so that's…00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:44.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as soon as my daughter got into college, I bought all the gear for her place. So, you know, there's tons going on at Cabaret, and I want to start…00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000Pete Meyer: It.00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:54.000Stuart Winchester: with this coming expansion, and you, you announced this a while ago, and I'm gonna share my screen here so that everyone can see, uh, see this as we talk through it.00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:13.000Stuart Winchester: And this is where I am never quite as fast as I want to be. Uh, but… okay. So, here is the Cabra Fay trail map. This is the one I took off your website this morning, so it's the most current that I have. Uh, and last time I talked to Tim in, I think, 2021, when you came on the podcast.00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it…00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000Stuart Winchester: This East Peak triple chair was still still in a theory phase and you hadn't built yet. Now that's in place and we'll talk about that in a minute and how that's gone. But talk to us about the Green Mountain triple chair, what we're getting and why you're building it.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, so, um…00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000Pete Meyer: I'm going to start with why, because it's kind of an interesting story, you know.00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:51.000Pete Meyer: we… when we put in the East Peak lift, we took out the shelter chairlift, the double. They started in almost the same place, but the shelter… the shelter lift.00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.000Pete Meyer: let off about halfway up the hill.00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:04.000Pete Meyer: And because we we have our dads before us and then and then we also have continued to develop the terrain.00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:13.000Pete Meyer: the terrain changes and the flow changes. And what happened over time, like, especially over the last.00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.000Pete Meyer: 25 years or so.00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.000Pete Meyer: we kept adding on to Smiling Irishman and making it wider and wider and wider, and it got busier and busier and busier, so…00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000Pete Meyer: The shelter chairlift was essentially letting off these new skiers.00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000Pete Meyer: in the middle of flowing traffic. And…00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.000Pete Meyer: We thought when we put in the East Peak lift.00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000Pete Meyer: Now we're gonna take these lower end skiers to the top.00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:55.000Pete Meyer: we're going to give them a longer run, and the new part we're giving them is actually the easier half. They're already negotiating the tougher half, the steeper half, and the narrower half. If we add the upper half, it's easier, it's wider, it should be fine.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:06.000Pete Meyer: And that's what we thought. And so we put it in and then but then what we found and this is the this is the piece that you learn as you go.00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000Pete Meyer: is…00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:15.000Pete Meyer: The new skiers accepted being let off at the lower level, and having to merge into traffic, because.00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:32.000Pete Meyer: They didn't really know any different and that it was the psychological factor. Well, I'm only halfway up the mountain. I can, I can do this. When we took them up to the top, you know, that East Peak lift actually feels like a out, it almost feels like an out West lift. It has.00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:43.000Pete Meyer: like, three rises, you know? So you ride… you go up over a break, and then you… and then you go again for a while, and then up over another break, and then you're coming into the top, and you… you know, you're above…00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.000Pete Meyer: Tree line, basically, and you can see the horizon, and it just…00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000Pete Meyer: would kind of psych out that new skier, you know, they would just, they would.00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000Pete Meyer: They'd get up there and kind of freeze and panic, and…00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:06.000Pete Meyer: say, there's no way I'm gonna go down, you know, I'm not gonna go down that hill. And, uh, so we found our ski patrol having to give a lot of lessons just to get people down the hill, and…00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:13.000Pete Meyer: And, um, and so we, we just, we kind of knew that we had a, you know, a little bit of an issue that we had to work through.00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.000Pete Meyer: And so Pete and I would be talking, you know, and I would say, I think I have it all figured out, you know, I'm saying, um…00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:34.000Pete Meyer: we just need to give them… make sure that all the… every single new skier gets a lesson, and we get them ready to… you know, we get them ready to go. And a lot of the… a lot of this is the school groups, you know, the different groups, and we do offer lessons.00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.000Pete Meyer: to everybody, but sometimes they don't take them, and, you know, they slide, they slide through, and…00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000Pete Meyer: And so.00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.000Pete Meyer: Pete and I were having a meeting on Green Mountain with our ski patrol director, Katie, and Dennis, one of our top instructors.00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:59.000Pete Meyer: And we think we have it all figured out. You know, we're just we just need to put them through a lesson and then and then problem solved.00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000Pete Meyer: And…00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:12.000Pete Meyer: And Dennis, our ski instructor, was like, almost grabbed right onto my jacket. He's like, you don't understand. I can't get them ready for East Peak on this.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:23.000Pete Meyer: we need something in between, and I… and… and so it's like, oh, oh, well, what do you need, Dennis? And he pointed up at the Green Mountain, and he said, we need that.00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:41.000Pete Meyer: And I… I said, well, I think we have a plan for that on a cocktail napkin somewhere. We could go look at that again. So basically, what… what hap… what it was is we… we had always had this. We… we actually had lift lines staked out, and we hadn't been looking at doing this. We just thought it would be…00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:51.000Pete Meyer: the last thing that we do. We thought we would… we would continue to develop into the… into the backcountry area, and then do the Green Mountain expansion later.00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:06.000Pete Meyer: But what the… what the customer told us was, no, you need the Green Mountain expansion now. So that's the why and the how, that all of a sudden that thing kind of appeared out of nowhere, and why it was a two…00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000Pete Meyer: why it's a two-year construction, because there's nothing over there. No services. Um, so we've had… we had to…00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.000Pete Meyer: You know, we had to do the final planning kind of fast.00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:30.000Pete Meyer: so we wanted to take 2 years to do it. Um, and so what are you getting? You're getting about 135 vertical feet, a brand new Doppelmayr triple.00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:38.000Pete Meyer: uh, that's just like East Peak and just like Vista, so it's gonna show this, you know, it's gonna take the new skier, um.00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:43.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and get them going on a lift that's similar to what we have throughout the area.00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:55.000Pete Meyer: it runs a little bit slower, has a bigger chair spacing, so it's going to be a little bit easier to load and unload. And when it's all built out, we should have 4 or 5.00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.000Pete Meyer: really, uh, easy trails, but with character. I mean, these aren't just…00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:14.000Pete Meyer: you know, a football field at 10 degrees that doesn't have any character. These are, you know, tree-lined, um, interesting slopes. Uh, the lift itself actually goes through the woods.00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.000Pete Meyer: and part of the way, and it's just a really neat development. So we think that.00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000Pete Meyer: You know, even though it's not big vertical, it lifts about a thousand feet long. The terrain has really good character and we think it's going to be really popular.00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:47.000Stuart Winchester: I've always loved that about Cabaret. My favorite section of Cabaret for the folks who are watching is this sort of lower section where all the trails split off. And I've always found it a little confusing and fun. And I like confusing. I like it. I feel like it makes ski areas feel bigger than they are.00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000Stuart Winchester: I want to zoom out a little bit and connect this expansion to some larger ski industry narratives, because the narrative that won't die is that the big corporate consolidation and big passes are killing the independents.00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:15.000Stuart Winchester: here I'm looking at Cabra Fay, family-owned for the last 46 years, and in 2016, you put in a brand new triple chair right here on North Peak. In 2022, you put in the brand new East Peak triple chair, and then you're putting in this brand new Green Mountain triple chair next year, at least that's the plan. I mean…00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:31.000Stuart Winchester: So you're affording three new chairlifts. Uh, you know, Monarch was willing to tell me out in Colorado. Yeah, we, and we paid cash for them. I don't know if you, if you have, you know, theories on debt. I know a lot of scare operators like Platykill in New York, like to stay out of debt, but, but how did Cab.00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:40.000Stuart Winchester: How is Calgary managing all these capital upgrades, and what does it say, do you think, about independents competing in 2026?00:31:41.000 --> 00:32:05.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, I don't have access to the checkbook, so you have to let me answer that one. No, that's a great question, Stu. And Tim kind of hit on this on his first podcast with you, but when Tim and I got moved back here in 2001, we had what I call like soul crushing debt. You know, it was just crippling, like every dollar we made had to go and service the debt.00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we didn't have…00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:18.000Pete Meyer: really any money to even make capital improvements or to do much of anything. So our our main mission early on was try to try to get out of debt and get out of that hole.00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:35.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, our dad's done a nice job developing and building, and they got it out of bankruptcy. So when you get something out of bankruptcy, they've already cut every corner and done all kinds of deferred maintenance, pushed it all off. So we had quite a bit to deal with, and it was a long…00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:46.000Pete Meyer: the long slugfest. Tim and I call those the dark days, you know, about 10 years of just really grinding. And then, finally, right, you know.00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:58.000Pete Meyer: about 2015, we were able to, uh, to get out of debt, and then… and then we started to, um, really put capital back into it, and that's why we decided on… on…00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.000Pete Meyer: Uh, putting in some new chairlifts, and yes, we have not gone back into debt since.00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000Stuart Winchester: That's fantastic, and as you think to the future, okay, you have this North Peak quad chair, built in, I think, 92, and then you have the South Peak triple, which I think early 80s lift, it's a riblet, which…00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:29.000Stuart Winchester: As you know, is out of business now. I think this one's a SeaTac. So, I don't know if when, you know, you give a really good summary, Tim, of how East Peak changed traffic around the mountain. Uh, I, I've seen a, there's a ton of comments. I was just scrolling through, through Lyft blog for the folks watching.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:41.000Stuart Winchester: to show Peter's excellent pictures of that lift. And the Cabaret page on there has a ton of comments, and I'm sure you've seen them. So, there's a lot of wondering, it seems, among skiers.00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.000Stuart Winchester: Why the quad is still here, because it…00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:57.000Stuart Winchester: they don't seem to think it runs a lot, and they think the triple does the job. Is there any thought of moving the quad, or do you really need 7 seats here? Or, just thinking long-term, what does the lift distribution look like across Cabaret Fay as you look at this map?00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:13.000Pete Meyer: Well, I think that we do need the quad on the busiest days, right? Otherwise, the reason we put the Vista Triple in there is the lines on the quad used to get so long. And it was like, that's the artery. I mean, you know, more people.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.000Pete Meyer: go through the North Peak complex.00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:34.000Pete Meyer: every day than than the others, you know, because it's the middle. And so it's you go through there on your way to and from South Peak, and a lot of people just ski there because it's really really good inter advanced, intermediate and intermediate type terrain, and even some advanced beginner terrain. So it.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:43.000Pete Meyer: It services a wide range of abilities. So I think you want to have the two lifts.00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000Pete Meyer: Um…00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:58.000Pete Meyer: I think ultimately, though, we want to have more places for people to go, more pods of skiing, so that actually you do run the quad less and less, but you have it there so that on the really busy days.00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:14.000Pete Meyer: you can turn it on and have, you know, a lift that doesn't have a line that somebody can sit on and ride up. But, um, I don't know if that answers the question. Yeah, right now, Stu, we run it 3 days a week, Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, the busier days, and so…00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:24.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we don't run it, uh, Monday through Thursday, just because it's a redundant lift, and we don't need the uphill capacity, um, is… is why people say it's not running some of the time.00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is, is there a world where you move the quad over here to serve some of this backcountry terrain and in the top of Green Mountain? As it's, as there's kind of open space on the trail map and, and knowing Gary Milken, how he designs maps, he sometimes leaves that space.00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: for expansion. So, so what's the thought around, you know, and you alluded to it earlier when you were thinking about a lift for backcountry, and Tim, you had mentioned even maybe reviving those halls. I don't know if that's still a possibility. I don't know if they're still sitting at the bottom of the mountain here, but what's the thought on.00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.000Stuart Winchester: potential expansion over in this area or lifts in this area long term.00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:17.000Pete Meyer: I think that would be the next frontier. So, somewhere in the bottom… because you've skied here, Stu, you know if you go through the backcountry, you run out of gas, and then you have… and then you have to walk, and that's why we call it backcountry, because it's a…00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:27.000Pete Meyer: Because it's a tearful experience for many people coming out of there in the flats. And so somewhere down in that basin.00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:40.000Pete Meyer: there could, there could be a lift someday that goes up to east of the top of East Peak. And Stu, what Tim had alluded to earlier in his first answer is that that was our original plan, so that would have been.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:58.000Pete Meyer: Uh, that was the plan to be our next chairlift, was to service that area. But due to the reaction and the response of our skiers, you know, we deviated and focused on… and moved to Green Mountain. Um, and, you know, one thing we found is that transition from the magic carpet, right there on the trail map, you can see, to the East Peak chair.00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:15.000Pete Meyer: was just too much for most of our skiers. And not only were we not doing Cabaret any favors, but we're not doing the industry any favors. You know, it's just, it was asking them to do too much, too big of a, make too much of a jump. So by putting in this East Peak.00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:30.000Pete Meyer: chair, and then we'll have all green runs that'll all be, um, varying degrees of difficulty of a green run, but all of them will be in between the Magic Carpet slope and the Smiling Irishman slope, so it'll be a really nice.00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:43.000Pete Meyer: transition, and quite frankly, we think a lot of school groups and a lot of skiers are going to come out, um, and never get off that chair, and stay on Green Mountain all day, and have a wildly successful day, and want to return, um, to not only Cabaret Fay, but to other ski.00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000Stuart Winchester: I love it, and I can confidently say, because I ski all over, uh, that Cabaret is now…00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:04.000Stuart Winchester: And, and especially once you put in this new lift, it's one of the most modern up to date ski areas in the entire region. And, and that wasn't always true. When I first skied at Cabaret in the nineties, it was a lot of haul double chairs. I mean, these, these guys were over here, the, the quad and the, and the triple, but.00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000Stuart Winchester: that, that throwback feel to it. And I know, Tim, when you were on last time, uh, you, you talked, you lamented a little bit.00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:23.000Stuart Winchester: getting rid of the last rope toe for the carpet, and just sort of the emotion of it, even though you knew it was logically the right thing. What if you could bring back a little throwback by putting a little rope toe right here to bring people out of the backcountry?00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.000Pete Meyer: Well, you know, it's funny, I…00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.000Pete Meyer: I was kind of slow to warm up to getting rid of that rope toe. I guess, you know, I always had that old school…00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:52.000Pete Meyer: you know, I learned on a rope toe, my kids learned on a rope toe, your kids are going to learn on a rope toe, which is just backwards thinking, right, for a for a ski area manager to have that kind of thought process. I'm not sure. I know where you're going. I mean, no one knows what the future holds.00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:09.000Pete Meyer: I do see ski areas having a lot of success with train parks with fast tows that service them. Again, another cocktail napkin plan that we have that we're not going to get into in this interview is something like that on our property down the road.00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:16.000Pete Meyer: Um, so there, you know, I could see that kind of a thing, but, um…00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:26.000Pete Meyer: And… but I think… I don't know if we would ever want to put a surface tow out of the backcountry area unless, for some reason, we weren't going to lift serve it.00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.000Stuart Winchester: Got it.00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.000Pete Meyer: But, you know, I guess, you know, no one knows for sure.00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I wanna… I wanna back up on the Green Mountain expansion a little bit, if… if you'll let me.00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000Stuart Winchester: Sure.00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, do it. Let's do it.00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:44.000Pete Meyer: When we were at the Midwest, uh, show this year, there was a, there was a fireside chat, and we were talking about.00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000Pete Meyer: We're talking about, you know, turning first-time skiers into second-time skiers, and making the experience the best it can be.00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000Pete Meyer: And so that we have… we have success in that arena. And the Green Mountain… the Green Mountain is… is really a missing piece, because you're looking at our trail map, and you see how the parking lot is laid out.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, so if you're, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible for somebody who's never skied before.00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.000Pete Meyer: You can park on pavement right in front of our ticket office.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:24.000Pete Meyer: Get out of your car, walk a short distance on heated sidewalks to the ticket office.00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:36.000Pete Meyer: Get… pay for everything you need. Pay for your skis, pay for your ticket, pay for your rentals, pay for your lesson, and then walk up to the… walk up to the, um…00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000Pete Meyer: Rental.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000Pete Meyer: In your, in your regular boots, so it's easy walking, go inside, take your stuff off, take your boots off, get your boots, get your skis and come and then, and then secure your lesson at the end and then walk out the door.00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:09.000Pete Meyer: And you're 30, you know, you're 30 feet from where the ski school meets and you're right at the bottom of the conveyor. So it's really easy to start out and we can get you going on the conveyor. We can virtually get anybody that can stand up on skis or snowboard up to the top.00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000Pete Meyer: And then put, you know, all their energy into getting them down the hill.00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:28.000Pete Meyer: And then once you outgrow that, you just get off the conveyor and you ski down a little slope right onto the East Peak lift. Or, I'm sorry, onto the Green Mountain lift. So now you're right there, and you have this real easy area.00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000Pete Meyer: to learn to ski, and then when you, when you're ready, you just ski down, just ski down the hill to the east peak lift. So the, the flow.00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000Pete Meyer: for that never ever in the in the ah, the the.00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:51.000Pete Meyer: possibility of getting them to come a second and third and fourth time is really real, and I think… I think we're in, like, a new stratosphere for getting…00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:59.000Pete Meyer: you know, getting people, uh, skiing. And then as it flows, you know, the next step, the next place to ski is East Peak.00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000Pete Meyer: And then as you get a little more daring, you work your way into the North Peak complex, and then eventually over to South Peak. So the flow is really natural, and I think it's going to work out extremely well.00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's like a mini, uh, Copper Mountain. I know you're a Winter Park guy, but it, you know, the, the, the viability… You know what, the exciting thing, I think, for skiers who are not novices, who know Cabaret Faye well.00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000Pete Meyer: Yeah.00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:38.000Stuart Winchester: starts to creep back into old Caber Fay. And, and when we've talked a while ago, Tim, I, I didn't have a good perspective, but some new maps have popped up on ski map.org, which is my go to for old trail maps. And this one I think shows the old terrain really well. So here's the road looping around, here's the parking lot.00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000Stuart Winchester: And then here's all the terrain. And so I… Google Earth also makes it really easy. So as I go here…00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000Stuart Winchester: I am, for those who are watching, I am zooming in on… so this is what you were talking about, you kind of just park on pavement, you get out here, for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, the carpet's right around here, and then this will be green, is that right?00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.000Pete Meyer: No, if you go, if you, if you go back to that old, old trail map, like you can see right to there, there's a.00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000Pete Meyer: A rope toe — there's two rope toes right there, right up that line, top of that peak. There was two rope toes.00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.000Stuart Winchester: Right there? Okay.00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000Pete Meyer: Uh, heading up that way, and another rope tow coming out at 90 degrees from… from the top.00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:37.000Pete Meyer: And that shack still is up there to this day. It's a two-story tow shack where we had three different rope tows coming in. So it's going to come right up to the top of that. And that area was always called practice area. That was the old name of it. So if you look at old trail maps, you'll see that word practice area.00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000Stuart Winchester: That's cool.00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000Pete Meyer: It's a great name for a learn to ski area.00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here's another map, the 1971 map has it as practice area. Okay, so I was assuming that you were digging that up, but I guess you're taking earth from there for the other… is that where you took it for East Peak? Is that what this big sandpit is?00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:07.000Pete Meyer: Oh, that's more of the West Ridge area out into that area. So we're actually off to the left. It's all still green. Up into there, yeah, so it'll be a nice natural hilltop with big mature trees, tree line runs. It's gonna be really, it's gonna be really nice.00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Stuart Winchester: So as you… so you can see, for those watching, this is old cab buffet. These are… this is all abandoned, right? I… do you still own this? I mean, it… because once you put the lift up here.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:37.000Stuart Winchester: It seems like it could potentially open some of this backside terrain. I know people would love that. It also makes you very big. I don't know if that's on your radar as Cabaret continues to grow and succeed, but what are the thoughts on this really cool abandoned terrain that you have back here? And Tim, I know we talked about this a few years ago, but I also know that thoughts evolve over time.00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000Pete Meyer: So we do still own all of that. So that area you're looking at, we do own it.00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000Pete Meyer: I think that we don't have any plans to go back into that area at this time, but you never know.00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000Pete Meyer: Going back, though, a little bit, we don't want to get too far into the weeds. Unless you want to get into the weeds, we can go. Um, I brought my machete, so we can…00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000Stuart Winchester: I live in the weeds, man, that's, uh, my…00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:22.000Pete Meyer: we can do what we need to do. But when… way back, going way back to 1982, 83, when South Peak opened, you know, South Peak was redeveloped, all that… a lot of that terrain was still running back then. We were riding T-bars and rope tows on the North Ridge, and West Ridge was alive, and.00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yes.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:31.000Pete Meyer: The practice area tow was still running. So I remember that stuff, you know, as a kid, all happening. And when South Peak was built.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:43.000Pete Meyer: it was so much bigger than all that, you know, vertical-wise. It was, like, twice, you know, twice the vertical, um, real snowmaking, real grooming.00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:56.000Pete Meyer: people just abandoned the back… the back hills. They just went… they left that. They left that area, and they went to Salt Peak. And that's really why it all closed, is people just stopped going back there. It just wasn't as good. So…00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000Stuart Winchester: Or did they?00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000Pete Meyer: I often think maybe it just is better to be a memory.00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000Pete Meyer: But but who knows? You know, down the road it could be what it could be.00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think between opening the backcountry and that, uh, the Green Mountain expansion, I think you excited some folks. Alright, that, that's, uh, that's, that's all really cool. I appreciate you taking me inside that. Let's talk passes now, and I'm.00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000Stuart Winchester: the screen share here. So, uh…00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:36.000Stuart Winchester: Cabrefe joined IndyPass as an inaugural member in 2019, and has been on that pass every season since, for the 2026-27 season. Cabrefe has, and I'm just laying this out for the listeners, uh, Cabrefe has departed the IndyPass and has joined.00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:51.000Stuart Winchester: The full icon pass, uh, on their two day tier, which is only on the full icon pass, not on the icon base, there's no access, and there's also holiday blackout, so the only mountains that are holiday blacked out on the full icon are the, the two day mountains, of which.00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.000Stuart Winchester: Cabaret is now one. So, so talk us through.00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000Stuart Winchester: your experience with IndiePass and the decision, ultimately, to leave that partnership and to join up with ICON.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, sure, Stu, we have a feeling this might be a topic of conversation today, so…00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.000Pete Meyer: So we.00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000Pete Meyer: There's a lot of layers to this answer, and this decision was not made quickly or lightly, and a lot of analysis and discussion went into it.00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000Pete Meyer: To be quite honest, we were… we've been frustrated with the IndyPass a little bit for a couple years, and we kind of… we kind of laid out a bunch of, um, the pros and cons list, and the cons list was a lot longer than the pros, and so we… we ultimately kind of came to this decision to exit, and um…00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000Pete Meyer: We're going to talk about — I'll talk about a couple of those reasons now. But before I do, I think it's important to provide some history and some context with Cadbury and IndyPass. So as you mentioned, Indy launched in 2019. We were an early adopter. We had some great conversations with Doug Fish that summer.00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:10.000Pete Meyer: Doug worked really hard to get this pass going. We really enjoyed our conversations. He kind of could answer the questions that nobody could answer. He knew things that nobody else knew. And I still remember to this day, I'm like, Doug, how do you know all this? And he's like in his raspy voice.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Pete Meyer: I just know, you know, so it's like, it was kind of cool. So we had confidence that, uh, that he could implement this pass and make it successful, um, because he knew what it took. So we…00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:26.000Stuart Winchester: I'm sorry to interrupt. I may have been the first ever Cabaret Redemption on the Indie Pass since November 2019.00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000Pete Meyer: You know what? That's this.00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.000Pete Meyer: It wasn't, it was December 5th, 2019.00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000Stuart Winchester: Okay. It…00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000Pete Meyer: So, I was gonna get into that in a little bit, but now I'll hit on that. So then, um, in digging through all these redemptions, which I was gonna get into.00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Sorry, I spoiled it.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:56.000Pete Meyer: And pouring this data, I was like, Stuart Winchester, you were redemption number one for us. I don't know if you knew that. And I remember it to this day because I never heard your name. I never heard of your podcast. I don't even know if you had it going then.00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.000Stuart Winchester: Wow, that's cool.00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000Stuart Winchester: Yah.00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: It launched, uh, that October, so it was brand new. Mm-hmm.00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000Pete Meyer: That October? Okay.00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:14.000Pete Meyer: So the… our… my office is right behind the ticket window, and the ticket teller… our office… the ticket manager wasn't in there, so the ticket teller came and got me when he came to the window. I have this, uh, IndiePass, I don't know what to do with it. So I was showing her how to…00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.000Pete Meyer: redeem it in in Brooklyn.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:43.000Pete Meyer: New York pops up. Oh, I got to talk to this guy. I go, you mean that you drove all the way here just to ski at Cabra Faith in Brooklyn, New York? And you're like, yeah, I did. And I thought, I'm like, this pass is awesome, right? It's great, guys. But then we talked a little bit more and you said you had family in the area and we're in the area for a while. So I was really high for a long time on the UniPass because of that. But I didn't know it was you until I was digging through the data. I'm like, oh, that's.00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:40.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, that's cool.00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:58.000Pete Meyer: That's that's so. So anyways, anyways, we'll where was I? So okay, so then we were the first as part of that. Then we were the 1st ski resort in the Lower Peninsula to to commit to the to Indy Pass, and I'm not sure about.00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000Stuart Winchester: Love that.00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000Pete Meyer: Um, the UP, uh.00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:16.000Pete Meyer: But the only one in the Lower Peninsula. And so we knew at that time, well, this isn't going to do anything unless we get a couple more ski resorts to join. So we had reached out to a few. And Pete Bigford was interested. And he was the CEO and president of Shanty Creek at the time.00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:30.000Pete Meyer: And Pete had said, yeah, we'll do it, but we need a couple of downstate resorts to join as well. So then we reached out to Jamie at Swiss Valley, she said yes, and Doug at Cannonsburg, and he said yes. So that first year, we had four.00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000Pete Meyer: Um, resorts on the Indy Pass. And…00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:45.000Pete Meyer: During that time he that 1st year he charged resorts a thousand dollars to get in. So we we had conversations. We're like, well, let's let's try it. The worst we can do is be out a thousand dollars right? So we had these.00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:00.000Pete Meyer: 4 ski areas in, and we did… I think we did 44 redemptions that first year. It was… it was virtually nothing. I don't even think it covered the… the $1,000. It might have come… but… but we liked the concept, it was neat, and the word got out, and then… and then Crystal Mountain joined, um, the next year.00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Okay.00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000Pete Meyer: Uh, and then, so we kind of hit a critical mass there, and then it was a really good pass, um.00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000Pete Meyer: for a long time, for a while, for several years. And one thing that Doug had said, and during that first year, I think in 2019, they had about 50.00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:32.000Pete Meyer: ski resorts on the pass, if I remember. And he said, I really hope to get it to 80 to maybe 100 passes. Um, and you as an early adopter, um, Cabaret will have say who gets in, in, in your particular region, because I really want to keep it, do just a couple ski resorts per region.00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.000Pete Meyer: not to not to oversaturate the market. Like, yeah, great. This sounds sounds really good.00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000Pete Meyer: So then as we go on, um…00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:50.000Pete Meyer: he sells the pass to, uh, Entebani and Eric. Um, and great for Doug, we're happy for Doug, he worked really hard to make that pass, good for him for selling it. Um, can't fault him.00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:05.000Pete Meyer: Um, and then we like to say, like, Eric, Eric took the pass and put it on steroids. You know, it's just, he, he's, he's done a wonderful job with it. You know, he's obviously very, very intelligent, very successful, running three different businesses, um, um, and doing well at all of them.00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000Pete Meyer: But he's blown it up. He just had a different mission.00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.000Pete Meyer: than than Doug had. Right? So what did that evolve into?00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000Stuart Winchester: Blowing it up, you mean making bigger, right?00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:22.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, making it bigger. Like, Doug was gonna keep it small and couple to each region, and we were gonna have an input on, you know.00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000Pete Meyer: to try to prevent it from being oversaturated. So, I know the Midwest has a lot of ski areas on the pass, but, like, our world is Michigan and our, more specifically, northern Michigan.00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yep.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000Pete Meyer: So it got down to where we had 6.00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Pete Meyer: um, ski resorts within a 60-mile radius in northern Michigan, right? So if you drop a pin, you can drive within, within 60 miles, you can get to six resorts on it. Um, that density just became too much for us, because that's 12 visits, right? If a skier buys an Andy Pass, they can ski 12 times, two at each place. It's great for them, they get a lot of.00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:12.000Pete Meyer: Um, the problem is, is what we're seeing, and we're watching the numbers every year, um, and it was easy to do because there's not a ton of redemptions, but how many of those people were former Passovers, right? And that percentage kept rising every year.00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000Stuart Winchester: Mmm.00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000Pete Meyer: So what it became and evolved into is just a direct competitor of our own season pass product. And that's ultimately reason number one why we — it just oversaturated.00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000Pete Meyer: And.00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.000Stuart Winchester: So, go ahead.00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.000Pete Meyer: And, you know, so…00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000Pete Meyer: I and I think the the Indy Pass really for a lot of ski resorts.00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:51.000Pete Meyer: doesn't move the needle a ton, um, financially. Uh, for… for us, it really didn't, and I felt like we were… did a reasonable number of redemptions, so we could… we could take it… take it or leave it. It doesn't have a big impact. It affects the customer more. Like, that decision was hard, the person who bought it in the past.00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.000Pete Meyer: Um, but I think Eric's a stand-up guy. He'll let anybody who…00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:07.000Pete Meyer: who bought an E-Pass, and their favorite resort is not on that, they'll give a refund to anybody who wants one. So the Cabaret listeners know that, and I think that's nice of him to do. Also, for those.00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:19.000Pete Meyer: um, Cabaret, uh, listeners who bought an Indy add-on. He'll honor that for this year, from what I understand. So, it's a couple of really good things that he's doing there, so we're thankful, thankful for that. But, um.00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000Pete Meyer: through conversations, and we just decided it was time to get out. So that's reason number one. I got a couple more reasons if you've got time.00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:41.000Stuart Winchester: Well, let's linger on that for a second. I mean, for me, it just comes down to good old-fashioned free market competition, right? Where there's another pass available that is looking for smaller mountains like Caber Fay. It also signed mountains like Buck Hill and.00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:58.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, and uh… Wild Mountain over in Minnesota, just small areas near populations that are popular. I saw you catching some heat in comments to me, you know, on my platforms and social media, because you go from the Indy Pass, which maxed out at $419.00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:16.000Stuart Winchester: to the full Icon, which is $1,449 right now, and I know you can upgrade and buy a discounted Icon session pass, but I don't want to overstate it. What's the reaction been like from your pass holders, and how have you handled that?00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:24.000Stuart Winchester: The fact that you're no longer available on the cheap discounted pass, multi-mountain pass, but you are available on the very expensive one.00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000Pete Meyer: Great question, great question, because we've been getting…00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:42.000Pete Meyer: Uh, we've been getting both, uh, good and, and bad feedback from it. So, what, what it comes down to is the, is the decision to, to, uh, leave Indy and, and join OCCON. Those, those decisions were, were mutually exclusive. Like, like, we had made the decision to.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:52.000Pete Meyer: to leave Indy, um, before we even started to Icon. And we had a lot of conversations of, hey, let's just… let's just be… let's just be independent and not on any… any, uh…00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000Pete Meyer: Multi resort pass, you know, there's a lot of really successful and really nice ski resorts that have that model, like Perfect North Slopes, Cascade in Wisconsin. We always go out and ski somewhere every spring and I went out to the Tahoe area this year and skied at Mount Rose, you know, that place is.00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:18.000Pete Meyer: that place is phenomenal. They're not on any, any, um, any pants. And, um, it was neat to ski there, and just see they had a similar vibe and feel that, um, Cabaret had, right?00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.000Stuart Winchester: Right. That's right.00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000Pete Meyer: So quite a bit more, quite a bit more. Yeah, yeah.00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: Just a little more elevation.00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000Stuart Winchester: They're at, like, 9,000 feet.00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000Pete Meyer: Absolutely, but it was great terrain. So.00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.000Pete Meyer: After we left the Indy Pass.00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.000Pete Meyer: Then we, um…00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:46.000Pete Meyer: Started talking to the folks at ICON, and I want to give a shout out to Aaron Keene and Caitlin Windauer, those girls are really sharp and would answer all the questions. It kind of reminded me of the early DuckFish days where they were all knowing and knew a lot of answers to everything.00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000Pete Meyer: We talked to them for a long time. We weren't in any rush to make a decision to go down this road.00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.000Pete Meyer: And you know what ultimately decided for us is.00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:10.000Pete Meyer: We want to do what's best for our core customer, and our core customer is our season pass holder, okay? And this IndyPass or this IconPass brought on this reciprocal benefit of a three-day.00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:27.000Pete Meyer: 3 day session pass you can get for 50% off. Right? And that adds a lot of value. To our pass holders. And so we've been hit as much as the negativity that you've seen online for leaving any pass, we've been getting messages from our pass holders saying, hey, thank you for this benefit. This is great.00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000Stuart Winchester: It's.00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000Stuart Winchester: Oh, three day. Yeah. Okay.00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:43.000Pete Meyer: I'm gonna use it. I'm gonna take a trip. And then we've known we've gone out west together and 3 days of skiing is plenty. Like we like to ski bell to bell and it's you're by that 3rd day you're waking up and you're like you can't even move your legs for you know we're so so we think it's a nice.00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah.00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:41.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:55.000Pete Meyer: Uh, you can ski locally here, you can head up in, um, hit up, hit up both Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, or drive over to, uh, Blue Mountain, Ontario, so you don't have to get in a plane. So it's.00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:11.000Pete Meyer: Uh, of our pass holders. Cause we know, we know, Stuart, that nobody's going to buy a full icon pass for two days at Cabaret. We, we know that that wasn't even the, like Pete said, we're, we do like our independence and, and.00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:25.000Pete Meyer: And we like to create these partnerships that are good for our core customers. The people that commit to us, we're going to give you the best we can. And so, you know, that that three day session pass is just it's it's.00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000Pete Meyer: It's a it's a great benefit for our core customers.00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:47.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's like you take a trip to Steamboat, or Palisades Tahoe, or a lot of the mountains that are on that. So, you know, it all makes sense, and I like the, you know, Boyne, Cabaret, sort of on one team, and then you have Nubs, and Crystal, and Treetops, and Shani on the other. I think that's good for skiers, it's good for.00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, two more, two more things I wanna talk about and then we'll get out of here. Uh, I, I really wanna talk about your season pass. $299 unlimited. I think it was even a little cheaper for early birds, but that's what it is right now. Uh, 219 for weekday, 129 for Sunday. That, that's an awesome, awesome deal.00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:18.000Stuart Winchester: by any measure. I noticed you no longer have the Saturday-Sunday pass, and I think it's been a couple years, and it also… Saturday lift tickets are more than Sunday, so it seems as though, from my point of view, you're really trying to manage the experience on Saturday. So, talk about your season pass suite.00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:27.000Stuart Winchester: And how that relates to your mountain management as far as making sure when people show up, they have a good experience.00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:42.000Pete Meyer: No, you're exactly right. You hit the nail on the head right there. We're trying to preserve the Saturday experience. That's the day everybody wants to ski. So if you're going to be on a pass and ski at Calgary on a pass, you got to have the seven-day week pass.00:59:42.000 --> 01:00:00.000Pete Meyer: And we wanted to protect that experience and not get overcrowded, not get overrun, and that's one of the main reasons that we got rid of the weekend pass. The weekend pass, we roll out, it was a $99 weekend pass in 2007 when we launched that, and that thing went all the way till.01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:14.000Pete Meyer: I think 2000 or 2001, we had that, so we had that for a long time, and that brought a lot of skiers here and exposed us as we continued to get better, and they saw the resort that we had, and all the work that Tim was doing on the hill.01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:21.000Pete Meyer: And then that just evolved into trying to manage the volume levels on Saturdays.01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a great deal. And, uh, you know, even, even as it's risen past 99, I mean, you know, 299, there's, there's a lot of resorts in the West that are charging more than that for a day this year. Beaver Creek's topping out at 392. So I love it. Okay. The last thing I want to.01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000Stuart Winchester: This one's a little personal, and I know I talked to you about this, uh, it was about 4 years ago, Tim or Pete, I forget, it was maybe both of you I was talking to. So I want to talk about this Trail Starkey.01:00:48.000 --> 01:01:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, I knew Dick Starkey. I'm friends with his daughter Crystal from way back. We went to school together. Uh, and, and I met him and I, I was always just remember being very impressed by him. He had a really good presence. Uh, he was, he was very fit and active and, and did a lot of things.01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000Stuart Winchester: Um, I didn't know him super well, but I met him a few times, and… and I… I just want to talk about, you know, he passed.01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:25.000Stuart Winchester: Four or five years ago now, and I noticed this trail and, and I said, oh, is that, is that named after Dick? And, and you said it was. So, uh, can, can you talk about the Starkey trail? Talk about Dick Starkey and, and, uh, his legacy at Cabre Fay and, and, and why it was fitting to name a.01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:34.000Pete Meyer: Yeah, Dick was a volunteer patroller at SP, patroller at Caber Fay for…01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.000Pete Meyer: I think… I… I think as long as… as my dad was around, you know, uh, Dick was there, and so, you know.01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000Pete Meyer: 40… however many years, 40… 40-some years, he was a patroller at Cabaret, and uh… you know, just had a big presence, you know, you knew him.01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000Pete Meyer: Played football at Ferris. Great stories about that. He was a captain and so he's tough.01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:55.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000Pete Meyer: And.01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000Pete Meyer: just a… just a great guy, great patroller, great mentor, um, a ton… lots and lots of stories about Dick Starkey for another day, but, uh, just somebody that we wanted to honor, and, um, so, you know, we made that change.01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:21.000Stuart Winchester: And why this trail? Why this, uh, why did you choose this one?01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:35.000Pete Meyer: you know, that… I don't… I don't know why we picked that one. We just… we… we… I think we… the, um… the previous name was an old, you know, an older name that… that… that honored a…01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:47.000Pete Meyer: an older ski instructor, but I think we thought, you know, maybe… maybe it was time for a change there. Some… maybe just something a little more relevant to… someone more relevant to…01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.000Pete Meyer: You know, this this last, you know, 40 years of caprophage tradition.01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:57.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, and I believe, I believe Crystal still, uh, volunteer patrols there as well, right? Yeah.01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.000Pete Meyer: Yes. Yes, she is.01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:03.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that's great. I haven't talked to her in a minute, but hi, Crystal. Hope you're doing great. Pete.01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000Pete Meyer: No, no, not about the trail.01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:22.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay, all right. Well, hey, listen, guys, I really appreciate catching up with you. There's so much always going on at Cabaret, and we were long overdue, so let's do it again soon, and I gotta get up there and ski that East Peak lift, because I haven't been in a minute, so I really appreciate that, and I'll talk to you guys soon, and thanks so much.01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000Pete Meyer: Thanks, Stuart. Thanks a lot, Stu. Appreciate it.01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000Stuart Winchester: All right, talk soon.01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let me just…01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:43.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Tim and Pete Meyer of Cabaret. I love Cabaret. It was my pseudo home mountain when I lived in Michigan. It was just 90 minutes down the road, so I never had a season pass there.01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:51.000Stuart Winchester: but I would go there a lot. I mean, and this was, you know, lift tickets were $20 or something back then, so it didn't really matter, and they had a lot of specials. So, I want to…01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up today, I want to talk about lift tickets a little bit, because there's some lift ticket deals going on.01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.000Stuart Winchester: And…01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:14.000Stuart Winchester: I'll tell you about the deals first, and then I'll, I'll tell you what I make of them as a, as a theme. So we're gonna focus on Colorado for a moment. So Arapahoe Basin, to celebrate its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets every Wednesday.01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:29.000Stuart Winchester: from late December through April, except for December 30th, which is holiday week, of course. Uh, they are $50 on Wednesdays outside of those windows, so early season at A-Basin, and then late season, and of course, uh, the mountain typically goes until June.01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:35.000Stuart Winchester: $80 lift ticket today, based in on their anniversary weekend, Saturday and Sunday, December 5th and 6th.01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:45.000Stuart Winchester: Also, anyone born in 1946, making you 80 years old, skis free all winter. Uh, A-Basin has a lot of ways to get in cheap. They have 3-day packs.01:04:45.000 --> 01:05:00.000Stuart Winchester: With no blackouts, any day, use any 3 days for $249. They have midweek packs, 5 days for $319. Midweek season pass is $539, and a full is $699, and of course, A-Basin is unlimited on both the Icon and the Icon.01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, base pass, and I wanna see…01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, they did get rid of the fall pass. I had…01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:21.000Stuart Winchester: I had emailed, because… because A-Basin used to have this great pass for, like, 250 bucks. It was from opening day until Christmas, but they did get rid of it. Uh, and… and they… Shayna from A-Basin emailed, and she told me.01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:37.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, for background, that was a very small audience for, for us who were interested in the Fall Pass pack. So, uh, so thank you, Shayna, for getting back to me so quickly, and I'd sent that right before the podcast started. So, so A-Basin deals on Wednesdays, you know, put that down in your.01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000Stuart Winchester: List if you, if you wanna actually day ski and maybe you have an epic pass, but you wanna, you miss a basin. Uh, and then Thursdays Copper Mountain is again doing $99 Thursdays. They're play for every Thursdays and a portion of that goes to a good cause. They're doing that every Thursday from January 7th to April 8th.01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:04.000Stuart Winchester: Including the holiday week in February, I don't know if that's a mistake, but grab it while you can, because I don't think they can take it back once you buy it. Uh, and then.01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:05.000Stuart Winchester: $99 a copper.01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:19.000Stuart Winchester: starting Monday, April 12th, which is pretty awesome. So, if you wanted to do a little day ski, and, you know, right now you can still buy tickets and everything, or still buy passes, because we're recording this on September 17th.01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: But if you're listening in the future, you could do a Wednesday $80 a day basin, a Thursday $99 at Copper Mountain. It's not a bad couple days in Summit County for a pretty reasonable price, given.01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:44.000Stuart Winchester: prices in 2026 for lift tickets at most mountains. Uh, down the road, Aspen, for its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets Saturday and Sunday, December 12th and 13th. They also offered…01:06:44.000 --> 01:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, tickets for $3 and 75 cents for Monday, December 14th. But those are sold out and they, I'm pretty much sure they sold out instantly. And it's funny ‘cause they didn't even market it at first. And, and Aspen folks tell me they just blew off the shelves. So that is for Aspen's 80th anniversary.01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:17.000Stuart Winchester: Same year as, uh, a basin is celebrating right now. And of course, some of the little guys around there, you know, ski Cooper hasn't announced their lift ticket prices yet. And I know it's small, but it's still, it's, it's a place you can go. It's high. There's no snow making. It's all natural snow.01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.000Stuart Winchester: $49 midweek tickets at Ski Cooper last year, maxed out at $99 on weekends.01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:30.000Stuart Winchester: Down the road, if you're on your way to Aspen, Sunlight, which has 1,750 feet of vertical drop.01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:46.000Stuart Winchester: And two brand new lifts. Well, one was from a base and used, but it was only 20 years old. So they put in two brand new lifts last year. Big vertical. Uh, their lift tickets max out at $109. Midweek, they're $74 to $94. It's a fun little area. It gives you Colorado.01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: with a little bit more of a… a throwback Colorado, old Colorado feel. So, so the question here is.01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see a rationalization?01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:58.000Stuart Winchester: In the lift ticket market.01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see ski areas value the skier that.01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:19.000Stuart Winchester: maybe has an Icon Pass, but wants to ski another mountain for a day? Or I guess more in this case, since Copper and A-Basin are both Epic Pass mountains, are we seeing them take advantage of the fact that right now, if you look at prices for.01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Breckenridge, it's $153 to ski on Friday, November 6th. Who knows what they'll have open? Probably not a lot.01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's 180 that day. Breckenridge goes over 300 for peak days. Uh, and on Monday, April 19th, as, as copper has dropped to 99, Breck right now is set to have a $179 walkup price for Monday, April 19th. So.01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:49.000Stuart Winchester: I think you're seeing some smart reactions from some of the…01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000Stuart Winchester: larger players and showing there's still a competitive market in Colorado. The question is…01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:07.000Stuart Winchester: will Vail follow? In their earnings call, one of their earnings calls recently, uh, Rob Katz, or their end-of-year earnings, their CEO, Rob Katz, said that Lyft ticket sales had softened considerably.01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:14.000Stuart Winchester: To absolutely no one's surprise, uh, because of the price of lift tickets. So, Ken Vale…01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:27.000Stuart Winchester: find a way in the softer seasons to start to compete, because it's clear that their direct compe

In this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Neil Nathan about the intersection between brain symptoms and complex illness. Dr. Nathan has practiced medicine for over 50 years. He is one of the leading experts in complex chronic illness and mold toxicity — author of the bestselling Toxic: Heal Your Body from Mold Toxicity, Lyme Disease, Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, and Chronic Environmental Illness and The Sensitive Patient's Healing Guide. I am grateful to call Dr. Nathan a mentor and colleague. His pioneering work has been responsible for my healing from chronic illness, as well as that of many patients I've treated. Together, we co-lead a small peer group (within the larger mentoring group he provides with Marie Matheson, ND), supporting practitioners who treat those with complex chronic illness.In this episode we discuss:03:43 – Dr. Nathan's path to understanding complex illness11:20 – Why complex illness is rising and underrecognized19:30 – Why new medical ideas take decades to reach patients23:15 – Mold, Lyme, and long-COVID: the “big three” root causes25:58 – The limbic-vagal-mast cell “trifecta”30:31 – Are some people born more vulnerable?44:39 – The risk in “just do limbic retraining” advice47:35 - Biochemical contributors49:26 – Structural root: jaw and cervical instability53:58 – Differentiating Between Mold, Lyme & Long-COVID58:49 – A message of hope, and where to learn moreFull Transcript belowYou can find Dr. Nathan's books, consultations and mentoring program through his website at neilnathanmd.com. If you'd like to help get this information out into the world, please consider liking, sharing, or commenting.Until next time,CourtneyCourtney Snyder MDDr. Courtney Snyder MD is a holistic and functional child and adult psychiatrist and host of the Holistic Psychiatry Podcast and can be found at courtneysnydermd.comMedical DisclaimerThis podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended or implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Consult your own physician for any medical issues you may be having.Full TranscriptDr. Nathan's Path to Understanding Complex Illness03:43Courtney: I'm so glad we're doing this, and I feel like it's long overdue. As you know, in the mental health space in psychiatry, there's a lot of recognition of a dysregulated nervous system, threat response in the body, but oftentimes that's attributed to external forces or trauma, and not necessarily internal threats that we see, obviously, in complex chronic illness, which we'll be talking about. There's also not the recognition of the relationship between physical symptoms and brain-related symptoms. So I know you're going to help us connect a lot of these dots. As we sort of just lay the groundwork for what complex chronic illness is — when in your path did you start to recognize the distinction, when was the beginning of your work and appreciation of complex health issues?Neil: Okay, there are two answers to that question. First, when I went to medical school, my hope was to become a healer. And I was very disappointed that when I got there, I realized they weren't going to teach me to be a healer. And back then I used to question my professors at medical school — why do you do it this way, and how is that? And I kept feeling in all of our interactions that we were missing something. And my professors would go, “Okay, Mr. Wise Guy, smart guy, what are we missing?” And I'd go, “I don't know, I just know we're missing something.” Later I would come to recognize that we were missing the emotional and spiritual component to whatever was affecting people in their illnesses. And I have language for it now — I didn't then. The person in medical school who influenced me the most was Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, who I view as my main mentor in medical school. She, unlike anyone else, had a one-and-a-half-hour seminar once a week. Back then there weren't video cameras — you were in a small confined room with a two-way mirror, and you're sitting there watching someone do this. And she would simply interview one of her patients. She was a psychiatrist, but she was the only one in medical school who demonstrated how to really listen to people, how to really communicate with them, and not have this standard review of systems — here's my questions, here's your answers, and that's what I do, and this is what I write up. She was really listening. She was trying to really take in, okay, what happened to you, and what's going on with you? So I would want to give her credit as a role model to change how I learn to listen. Okay, that was step one.I'm going to fast forward to the early 1980s. And I am, at that point, the medical director of a regional pain clinic. And we are starting to see a whole bunch of patients who had this complicated process of fatigue, unrefreshed sleep, irritable bowel syndrome, and pain migrating all over their body. And back then we called it fibrositis. Now we call this fibromyalgia. And so whenever medicine encounters a thing that they don't know what they're looking at, it's psychological until proven otherwise. And people would get therapy, and they would take antidepressants and anti-anxiety agents. Didn't help much. And so it became clear to me that we didn't understand what this was at all. It was not psychological. Something was going on in their bodies — now I recognize it as an inflammatory process. Back then there was no concept of that at all. And then, slowly, in the early nineties, we began to find pieces of the puzzle to understand what was triggering fibromyalgia. I was working back then with Jacob Teitelbaum, who did a lot of work with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, and we both independently came up with an understanding that a deficiency of magnesium, DHEA, adrenal issues, thyroid issues, sex hormone deficiencies, GI dysbiosis, and food allergy — if we looked at those and treated those, the majority of people with fibromyalgia got cured. It was different for different patients. It was not like there was one thing that caused it. And as time evolved, we began to realize that there was lots of other biochemical imbalances in the body that would contribute to this kind of a process that represented chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia.We discovered that Lyme disease and coinfections was a huge piece of that. And later still we discovered that mold toxicity was a huge piece of that. And so my understanding of the complexity — and it's not really confined to chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia at this point, we're really talking about almost all chronic illness — with a huge psychological component to that. So we've begun to understand this as essentially some version of inflammation. And if we start to really dig into what are the potential causes of that inflammation, we can make a huge impact for them. So this is a multi-year evolving understanding of how a person's genetics, biochemistry, physiology impacts their whole being in every way. And that inflammation extends to the nervous system, contributing greatly, if not causing directly, a large number of what are now called psychiatric diagnoses.Courtney: Right. So even among those patients that you were seeing — you were seeing, I'm assuming, depression, anxiety, brain fog?Neil: Yeah, the vast majority of our patients with mold toxicity have brain fog and anxiety, depression, OCD behaviors, mood swings, depersonalization, derealization. I mean, all of that is super common in our patients.Complex Illness Is Rising — and Underrecognized11:20Courtney: Do you feel like this is more recognized now — or do you feel like the number of people being hit with these complex health issues is increasing — or both?Neil: Both. I would love to say that the medical profession is increasingly recognizing all of this as important, but that recognition is coming very, very slowly. The majority of folks out there, if they were to list the symptoms that they had, their doctors would basically look at them like, “I have no idea what's causing it, so this must be in your head.” And that is the message they're getting from their physicians at this point. So many patients are being gaslighted, so many patients are being told it's in your head. And the repercussions of that are the family is hearing that same message, and the families become less supportive of those people, because they're saying, “This is not real, so why would I support you? This is still in your head, go get your head fixed.” And they're wrong, and it's really a travesty. But so yes, very slowly, this awareness is growing. There are now more medical meetings that I'm aware of where psychiatrists can learn more about this than there were ten, fifteen years ago, for sure. But not enough — it's still not enough.The other part of that is some of the main triggers for this inflammatory process are increasing. So we're seeing more and more mold toxicity, we're seeing more and more Lyme and coinfections, partly because the environment that we are all exposed to has gotten extremely increasingly toxic. So it's now known, for example, that there are 350,000 new chemicals in our environment than existed 70 years ago. The vast majority of those have never been tested for safety in human beings. So human beings have a tremendous amount of chemical exposure that they never had before. Human beings have a tremendous amount of EMF, electromagnetic exposures that they never had before in the history of the human race. So these exposures are cumulative. Our major organs, like our liver and our kidney, that have to deal with toxicity, are overloaded. And so, yes, we are seeing an epidemic of a whole bunch of these conditions. In children, we are aware that autism has skyrocketed — it went from one in several thousand kids to one in thirty kids in many states now have autism. And forgive me, but the pediatric profession is not taking this seriously. It's like, “Yeah, that's sad, it's unfortunate.” It's like — really, you don't want to look at this? This means one in every three kids born are getting autism — does that not concern you? But, forgive me, the medical profession is very slow to embrace new information, and that is really to the detriment.We're seeing an epidemic of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, ALS, all of which involve neuroinflammation. We've seen already an epidemic of chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. And all of these things are interrelated, because — yes, I'm supposed to be an expert on mold toxicity, and I probably am — but mold toxicity doesn't exist in a vacuum. You have mold toxicity as one of multiple environmental toxins we're being exposed to. It is simply one of the most common, the easiest one to diagnose, because we have tests for it. We don't have tests for the hundreds of thousands of chemicals out there. We're just beginning to be able to have some tests that will tell us what's in someone's body that might be making them sick.Courtney: Right, right. And I would imagine that this typical medical model of looking for one cause to autism, one cause to dementia — it's a completely different way of thinking. When you get away from that and you look at complexity of the human body, that way of thinking holds back the research, it holds back any progress.Neil: What I think is helpful for people to look at is: we are all uniquely, biochemically, genetically different. And so the same inflammation in one person could trigger cardiovascular disease, and another person could trigger Alzheimer's, and another person could trigger chronic fatigue. So we need to take a step back and go, okay — and this is not a brand new idea. For the last ten years, there are many papers in the medical journals that are saying chronic illness is almost certainly an inflammatory process. Now, it hasn't really integrated into what people are being taught in medical school or in their residency program. But this is not a brand new idea, and there's tons of medical research documenting that.What behooves us as physicians is to look at every human being and go, “Okay, this is your named chronic condition — what are the triggers for you?” We have to kind of be like a medical detective and dig in and go, okay, what's triggering your inflammation, so I can treat the cause — not put a band-aid on it, which is, forgive me, in the psychiatric field, taking antidepressants and benzodiazepines. That's a band-aid. It's a helpful band-aid, it could be a very important band-aid, help someone to function. But you really need to be looking at, okay, I have this great band-aid, but wouldn't it be nice to actually cure this? And I think that would be, for me, to your audience, Courtney, my take-home message — which is always look for the root cause, because it is possible that we will find that root cause, and you won't have whatever name you've been given, depression, anxiety, OCD, for the rest of your earthly life. Maybe.And I've treated thousands of people successfully here. So this is not — I've had one or two successes here — we're talking thousands of people that have responded to this way of practicing medicine, with fabulous results. People who've been literally bedridden, incapacitated by their illness, are now out there working again and being with their family and living full lives. So that's the take-home message.Courtney: Right. Which makes it so satisfying to treat. And I mean, I can speak to that, having experienced it personally. But at the same time, you do get pushback from other areas of medicine that don't give it necessarily credibility, even though people, on the other side, are thriving and healing, and it's really amazing.New Medical Ideas & Research Take Decades to Reach Patients19:30Neil: You know, the history of all science, including medicine, is: new technology, new drugs are fast-tracked to get into our lives. Ideas, not so much. Typically it takes a generation — twenty, twenty-five years — for a new idea to come into acceptance. And the first reaction of any science, medicine included, is to get into denial, which is, “There isn't enough data to support this concept, and I can't be perceived as practicing bad medicine by embracing a concept that isn't proven yet.” But that means that all of their patients are going to have to wait twenty years — until suffering — until that person goes, “Now there's enough evidence, now I can learn how to do this, and now I'll begin to help you.” I'm not wired that way. I'm wired that if I have a suffering person, and I have something that I can offer them that might help, I'm going to try it. I'm going to do it in the safest way I know how, but I can't leave someone dangling for twenty years and say, “I'm sorry, I have to wait until my profession figures out what to do.” That's not me.I worked at the medical school at the University of Minnesota Duluth for eleven years. And I was not only on the faculty, but I was on the committee that determined what new information was put into the curriculum. For example, AIDS was just coming into vogue at that particular point, and it was obvious that we needed to have courses on AIDS for the medical students, because this was big. What a lot of people wouldn't understand is that each department in a medical school fiercely guards its time allotment. Everyone gets a certain number of hours, and they're not open to adding new things or giving up any of their time slots for anything new. And so what I would watch is, as new information came into the medical school, each department fiercely refused to add any new lectures in their department, or give up any of the time that they had to anybody else to add that information. So we're talking about university politics now — this is not even medicine, this is people guarding their turf. And I don't even think that would occur to any consumers, that that would happen like that — well, certainly, why would that happen in a medical school? Well, it's because human beings are responsible for each department, and they guard their own turf. So it's a kind of an insidious process about how new information isn't embraced by the profession, to go into the medical school curriculum.Mold, Lyme, and Long-COVID: The “Big Three”23:15Courtney: I want to come back to what you were saying about inflammation being at the core of chronic illness and complex chronic illness. And when it comes to complex chronic illness, whether it's SIRS or mast cell activation from mold or Lyme, we talk about multiple systems being affected — the central nervous system, gastrointestinal tract, endocrine, skin, just you name it. If the inflammation then is from a source of oxidative stress or a major insult — would you say that mold toxicity is the most common, or would you put Lyme or now even COVID on a par with that, as far as the deepest roots causing the inflammation? Not that the chemicals, metals, and everything else we're being exposed to aren't at play.Neil: In my experience, those three are the biggies — mold toxicity, Lyme with its co-infections, and long-haul COVID. Those are the three most common. Of those, in my experience, mold is the most common, and the one that has to be treated first if you have some or all of them. So, for example, in people who have long-haul COVID or Lyme, often their body will not respond to that treatment optimally until you first get the mold out. So there's a little hierarchy of what we do, in what order. And then within that hierarchy, there's also an order in which we do things for people to respond optimally. So, for example, mold toxicity will trigger — and Lyme and Bartonella will do the same thing — limbic dysfunction, vagal nerve dysfunction, and mast cell activation in most of our patients. Not all, but in most. And the longer they have it, the more likely those things are going to get triggered. Once somebody does not feel safe — and the systems that we have in our body to monitor that safety and to keep us safe are the limbic system, the vagal system, and mast cell activation — we have to get the body safer, or it will not be able to take what you need to take to treat mold or Lyme or long-haul COVID. People will literally shut down — their limbic system will essentially go, “Mm, I see what you're trying to do there, and I can't let you do it, because I'm not sure that's safe.” And it will literally not allow people to do it.The Limbic-Vagal-Mast Cell “Trifecta”25:58Courtney: So with one of those, or a combination of those, on board, these threat mechanisms would be kicked up — mast cell activation, limbic system dysfunction, autonomic nervous system dysfunction. If they look similar, or a timeline isn't easily helping parse out what might be primary, how able do you feel to make the distinction — versus if mold is present, starting there?Neil: If we look at our patient's symptoms, they will point us clearly to whether there's a limbic or vagal or mast cell piece, to be specific. The limbic system's job involves primarily monitoring and regulating and keeping emotion and sensitivity in check. So any symptoms that involve those two things are limbic almost by definition. So on the sensitivity side, if someone describes an increased sensitivity to light, sound, touch, smell, chemicals, EMFs, food — they're already telling me my limbic system is dysfunctional. In some ways it doesn't matter what the cause is; if someone has this increased sensitivity, regardless of the cause, I know we have to treat their limbic system first.On the vagal side, the symptoms would primarily run into symptoms that involve the autonomic nervous system, which would involve things like temperature dysregulation, palpitations, insomnia, POTS, blood pressure dysregulation, or symptoms that involve the gastrointestinal tract, because the vagus nerve controls almost the entire intestinal tract. So any GI symptoms — gas, bloating, distension, reflux, diarrhea, constipation, abdominal pain — again, that would lead me to go, the vagus is involved here. So by listening to my patient's symptoms, I can immediately know what's dysregulated here, and what my first treatment arm will be — to get the limbic and vagal systems back up and running again at a safer level, because otherwise our patients aren't going anywhere. They can do binders and antifungals and antibiotics for Lyme, and they will get worse. Their body will basically go, “I know I might need that, but why are you doing that? I can't even get to a place of safety to respond. I'm on self-preservation mode here.”And in the mast cell category — again, all of the same symptoms that could be mold or Lyme or long-haul COVID could also be mast cell. Again, it's a multi-systemic process. A tip-off, which I find very helpful, is if someone describes a symptom that comes on immediately after eating, sometimes while eating. Nothing causes that kind of reaction that fast except mast cell activation. Allergy — and most people, if they do have some symptom that comes after eating, they're going to be thinking, “It must be what I ate, what did I just eat?” But it's not food allergy, it's mast cell activation. In that context, many of our patients have already observed that they can eat a particular food one day and have a very strong reaction, and the next day, same food, nothing. And they'll go, “That doesn't make sense — if this was allergy, I ought to react the same way every time.” And so that is classical mast cell activation, which fluctuates. So — for the first part of your question — that's what I'm looking for. When I take a history, when I talk with patients, I'm going to really dig into: are they already manifesting symptoms that clearly tell me what we need to do first, to get them safer, so that now they can respond properly to the treatment that will really get at their root cause.Are Some People Born More Vulnerable?30:31Courtney: I know you take deep timelines when you meet with someone, so you're really accounting for a lot. But one of the things that I think about a lot is: who is most vulnerable? Do some of us come into the world already with a vulnerability similar to Elaine Aron's highly sensitive person model? And then maybe there's trauma, early attachment disruption — and already vulnerabilities — but then the toxic load that we're all experiencing. But then something like mold or Lyme then hits. And then, all the years and all the patients you've seen — I'm curious how many you feel already had sort of a vulnerability. Not that they ever had to really become sick necessarily, but already had a vulnerability.Neil: Honestly, I would say most. Our limbic system evolves from the time we were in our mother's uterus, so that almost no one has had a perfect childhood. And so whatever someone has had to deal with in childhood — it could be recurrent ear infections or throat infections, or it could be a surgical procedure, or it could be parents, both of whom worked and they didn't get enough time, or they could be abusive parents, sexually, physically, verbally abusive — whatever someone has been exposed to, that forces their limbic system to have to deal with it. Because that's the job of the limbic system, is to keep you safe. So your limbic system is basically going, “Okay, I'm just a little thing here, what do I need to do to cope with this?” And so their limbic system slowly, inexorably, becomes more and more hypervigilant to protect them. Let's say someone had an alcoholic parent, and they would come home, and you were never sure what their status would be — and so you'd kind of hold yourself back from that, which is, “I've got to see what this person is showing me, is it safe for me to come up and give them a hug, or do I want to hang out in my room for a bit until whatever this is settles down?” That's the beginning of this limbic hypervigilance process. And then it just goes on through life. So that if you've had difficult relationships, or surgeries, or severe infections, or anything in the physical or emotional or spiritual plane, a betrayal of some type — the limbic system becomes slowly more and more and more hypervigilant, when the straw hits the camel's back. And that straw could be COVID, or Lyme, or mold toxicity, or another infection of some type — that's the straw that breaks the camel's back. At that point the limbic system goes into shutdown, which — we know the vagal system goes into shutdown, literally, that's something the vagal system is trained to do. It's “okay, we are so unsafe that I'm shutting down my systems here.” And so that predisposes to illness. But I want to tie that back to inflammation, which — a lot of people don't understand that the vagus nerve, for example, controls inflammation in the body also. There are branches of the vagus that go to the spleen, to the gut-associated lymphoid tissue, and to the thymus, all of which are major immune organs. And if the vagus is dysfunctional, inflammation can rage out of control. So again, this comes back to understanding this complexity of inflammation, and how we need to both understand it and know where it is we want to look to get at that inflammation. So there is a profound interconnected limbic-vagal-mast cell piece. Each totally connects to the other. There's an interaction between the thousand biochemical mediators that mast cells make and the nervous system itself. So I call this interconnection the trifecta, which is: you can't just treat the limbic system in a vacuum, because if you're not also looking at the vagal and mast cell system, your treatment may be a little bit helpful, or it might not even work at all, until you combine all three — so that you really understand this is a package deal here, in terms of how we work with it.There was one more piece I wanted to add, Courtney, to understanding the inflammation piece: whether or not someone gets mold toxicity or Lyme or COVID depends on how robust their immune system is. So you could have a family living in a moldy environment — one person is really sick, several are a little bit sick, and one is not sick at all. And the one who's not sick at all can easily go, “I'm not sure what's wrong with you all, but I'm fine in this environment, it can't be my environment because I'm fine.” And what they're not understanding is: yes, they are fine, as long as their immune system stays robust. For the others, they were at risk for all of these conditions because their immune system took a hit. And for many people who were living in a moldy environment, during COVID, for example, when we isolated and people were spending twenty-four hours in their home rather than the eight hours out, they were many now being exposed to more mold at home than they were before. I don't think people began to think about that or look at that. So in that environment, whether or not they were affected depends on the hit they took. Now, the things that will hit an immune system to weaken it, and allow whatever's there to manifest, are: COVID was a biggie, any severe infection, a surgical procedure, childbirth, menopause, or any emotional upheaval will weaken that immune system, and then the immune system loses containment, and now we are off to the races. So what I try to convince people who are living in a moldy environment who are well is that they're living with a ticking time bomb. Should they take an immune hit, they will be just as sick as their family member who they're kind of lording it over, which is, “I'm not sick, what's wrong with you?” You'll be right there yourself if you take that hit — to try to help them understand, yeah, you're okay for now, but once your immune system weakens. So I'm trying to tie together the immune system, its ability to regulate inflammation, and this whole process here.Courtney: Right, right. Which I guess is why we call it complex, complex illness.Neil: It is the way human beings are. We're not making up a new word of complex illness — illness was always complex. We're just beginning to understand how complex it always has been.The Limits of Treating Symptoms Alone44:39Courtney: Right, so there's communities out there addressing mast cell activation. There's communities out there addressing POTS and dysautonomia. Communities out there addressing OCD and more obvious limbic-type issues. And then there's the whole mental health field. And the dots aren't getting connected. I mean, I've yet to see someone with OCD — I think it's like eighty to ninety-five percent have mold toxicity as part of the picture.Neil: You know, an example — and I won't name names — is there's an eminent pediatric physician who is very well known for his work in autism, who thought he was ADD his whole life until he recognized that he had mold toxicity and started taking antifungals, and all of a sudden his brain went online and he doesn't have it anymore. So that's just a very clear example of what you're talking about. And what we are talking about is: it's absolutely essential that all people who work in the medical field, all healthcare providers, embrace this complexity, because if you're only working on a piece of it, you will help some people to a certain extent, but you will not help people optimally. I mean, that is the absolute bottom line.The understanding that mast cell activation was huge came in 2016, when Larry Afrin wrote his book, Never Bet Against Occam. It was a huge game changer. When I read his book, it was like, “My goodness, I've been missing this in my patients.” And the whole world embraced this information, so that every medical center in the country now has a mast cell activation clinic. However, they're looking at it as a single thing with a label to it, and they're treating it just that way. They have not recognized that if they don't add limbic and vagal work to it, their treatment is not going to be adequate. And so, yes, they're helping people, but absolutely not optimally. And to make it worse, very few of those clinics have recognized that what's causing mast cell activation, which absolutely needs to be treated, is mold toxicity and Lyme. So people go to these clinics and get a certain amount of help, but they're not being treated comprehensively, which is a pet peeve of mine — which is, come on, if you're going to have a clinic, understand the whole interactions of whatever name it is you're working with. If you're going to be an ENT specialist, understand everything that impacts that area. If you're going to be a cardiologist, understand everything that impacts it. And we just don't see that. We see people kind of in their little box — “No, no, I've learned this, this is what I do, this is how I work” — and it's just unfortunate that they're not looking at the bigger picture.Courtney: Right, I think add to that PANS and PANDAS, because in psychiatry, people feel like they're deep diving because they're getting to PANS and PANDAS. It's like, okay, you've got to go deeper than that, because even those conferences, they talk about the need for treating relapse, and it's just going to keep reoccurring.Neil: I mean, they're using IVIG to help. That's nice, but they're not getting to cause. And we know when PANS and PANDAS first emerged on the scene, it was all about strep, and that was the focus for a long time. But as time emerged, it was very clear that this was a neurological inflammation triggered — here we go, broken record — Lyme, mold, other infectious agents had to be looked for. And if we treated those, you could cure PANS. It wasn't something that needed IVIG for the rest of your earthly life.Courtney: Even among those, would you say very often mold is underlying the mycoplasma, the candida?Neil: I think mold is one of the most missed components to illness that I can think of. If I have a goal in life, it would be to raise the consciousness of our profession as to the importance of mold toxicity, how common it is. We're talking millions and millions of people who are not diagnosed, because their doctors don't know about it, and therefore are not making the diagnosis. I'd love to see the consciousness get to the point that someone would present with these complicated stories and a doctor would say, “Why don't we think about mold toxicity?” That would be the most important thing I would have done in my career.Courtney: Yeah, well, you're certainly raising awareness.Neil: I'm working — it is slow. As we said, I'm working on a twenty-year generational issue here.Courtney: You've mentioned that the underlying source needs to be addressed, but the nervous system and immune systems need to be addressed. So one of the things that comes up with limbic system retraining is: I've had people hear the message that if they just address their limbic and autonomic nervous system, then they wouldn't need to address what I see as an ongoing threat, such as a mold toxin. So I'm hoping you can speak to that, and the importance of these programs, despite that.Neil: Sure. A couple of the better-known limbic retraining programs, the coaches get a little bit zealous about — “limbic retraining is so important, this is all you need to do alone, don't even do anything else, just do limbic retraining.” And I suspect that there are a handful, very few, but a handful of people who've gotten well just doing limbic retraining. If, for example, if you had mold toxicity, if it was relatively new, if you had not colonized, and you moved out of your mold exposure soon, it is possible that the limbic retraining would help reboot it to the point that your immune system rebooted itself and you'd be fine. I believe there are a few people like that. The vast majority of people who have limbic dysfunction — you need to do limbic retraining and vagal retraining. You may also need to do mast cell retraining, and please look for the cause of that. Those are downstream effects, those are not named diagnoses that you treat alone and it fixes it. Please look for at least mold and Lyme, which are the two most common things that are triggering this at this point. And people are getting the wrong message if they think they need to do it in a vacuum. To make it worse, they're being told, “No, no, just do limbic retraining, that's all you need.” And the truth is, no, you need to combine limbic retraining and vagal rebooting and mast cell activation most of the time. And of course you've got to get back to cause.Courtney: Right, I mean I try to liken it to — if they were in an abusive relationship or toxic relationship, they wouldn't just limbic-system their way out of that, if there was an external threat.Biochemical Contributors47:35Neil: No, you've got to fix what's primary here. I want to add to this discussion — we're focusing on inflammation from toxins and infections, but there are also other biochemical issues, some of them downstream, that need to be looked for and addressed in order for people to recover completely. So, for example, Lyme and mold will trigger kryptopyrrole issues, or imbalances in the ratio between zinc and copper, or they'll trigger methylation issues super commonly. And I just wanted to expand this discussion — I know it's complicated enough, but I don't want to oversimplify it either — that there are other biochemical things that we want to be looking for, because they're treatable, and they will help people to heal faster, if we're also addressing methylation, the need for zinc, the need for magnesium or B6 — those are common components of this whole process here. And so I just want to kind of tie that all together for a moment.Courtney: No, I'm glad you did, because those are topics that I talk about here, so it's important to connect those. The other thing I see, because I integrate the Walsh approaches with treating people that have complex health issues, is zinc seems so amazing when it comes to mast cell activation — making sure that's optimized. As well as connective tissue — and that was something else I wanted to ask you about — is structural issues that can be impacting the autonomic nervous system. I just see a lot of people — I inquire about it because I had it myself — but who have upper cervical instability as part of this whole picture.Structural Contributors49:26Neil: Again, all of these things are interrelated, and the physical structure can prevent people from moving forward in several different ways. One is the structure of the jaw and the face — the body puts a priority on teeth occluding properly. And if the teeth don't meet just quite right, and the jaw is a little bit out of structure, people often talk about TMJ — the body basically freaks out, it goes into sympathetic overdrive. And for some patients — it's not common, but I've seen several dozen — where the jaw had to be realigned by a combination of dentists specially trained in this work, working with osteopathic physicians, to realign the jaw. Often in those patients, they couldn't respond to the limbic and vagal treatment until their jaw got realigned.Same thing is true with what you're talking about, as cervical cranial instability, which is basically a weakening of the ligaments at the base of the skull, where it attaches to the first cervical vertebra. Now, these are all again intertwined — for example, it begs the question of what weakens those ligaments. And the answer is: if you have mast cell activation, some of the materials that the mast cell makes weakens the ligaments. So the ligaments get weak, and where the skull attaches to the first cervical vertebra, instead of being pulled apart, like ligaments do, it collapses. And that influences the blood flow to the brain, the nerve flow to the brain. And again, the body recognizes that as a priority, and often you can't get that better — you can't get limbic and vagal response until that gets fixed.So there are a bunch of structural issues that also need to be looked at, when people become overly sensitive and are not responding properly. And there's more in that area. So, for example, there's a chapter by Tasha Turzo, who's an expert on the jaw structure. There's a chapter in there by Andy Maxwell on cervical cranial instability. So that book would give people a really good overview of how complicated things are, and they might, chapter by chapter, get a clue of, “I haven't looked at this piece yet.” I mean, we haven't talked about oxalate or salicylate imbalances, which can add to that. So I just think that is a resource for folks that could really help them understand how they've gotten where they are, and understand the path out.Courtney: Right, right, because not everyone has all of these areas, but certainly could be held back or have a unique something that they could be getting relief from early on in the process. So I think it's both, to the degree that people are able to learn, and your book Toxic, too — it's like an encyclopedia, even if someone doesn't read straight through it, they can go to the mast cell section, or they can go to the Bartonella section.Neil: It was intended to be a readable way to understand this complexity, because it basically will talk about almost everything we've talked about today, and help people to get better understanding. I mean, we've talked about the bigger picture today. We didn't talk about, okay, how do you diagnose Lyme, how do you diagnose mold toxicity, how do you diagnose long-haul COVID, and most important, because this is very complicated, how do you decide which of those is the biggest player that you want to address first?Distinguishing Between Mold, Lyme & Long-COVID53:58Courtney: Right, I have shared resources on diagnosing mold toxicity. Would you comment on your last point — how do you recognize, are you using specific testing that you want to reference, the RealTime?Neil: I do. But I would emphasize, we're taught in medical school that if you really listen to patients, ninety-five percent of the time you will make the diagnosis by history alone. And I don't want to get too focused on testing, because listening to the patient and having them describe in detail what they're going through will really give you the little pieces you need to tease it apart to a certain degree. That's only possible to a certain degree, because there's a huge overlap between the symptoms of Lyme and Bartonella and mold and long-haul COVID and mast cell activation. Huge overlap. So there's little teeny pieces that will tend to lean more in one way than another. And honestly, that's what's required from all of us, literally years of study, to really get a handle on — someone will say something, okay, that's much more of a mold symptom than it is a Lyme symptom, something else. So I do encourage people, if they think they might have mold, to get a urine mycotoxin test. That has revolutionized our ability to make these diagnoses.Courtney: Would you still set RealTime as the preferred? That's what I've communicated to this audience.Neil: I would. Any test can help make the diagnosis, but for follow-up testing, the only one that's been really consistent is RealTime. And you want a follow-up test, so you want to know what your baseline starting is, and then you want to know, okay, am I getting these toxins out of my body? From my perspective, you know that you're done treating it when that RealTime comes back reading not present in every category. We have better tests now for Lyme than we've had in the past. Years ago, our tests were inadequate to say the least. And the CDC recognized years ago that the tests were so inadequate that it was basically a diagnosis made by a physician by examining all of the history and information that you had. That was enough — you didn't need a lab report to make the diagnosis of Lyme disease. A new test that I'm particularly fond of is Bruce Patterson's fourteen-panel cytokine test. This is a test that measures cytokines, which are the molecules of inflammation — cytokines are made by your immune system to deal with, or fight, different inflammational causes. And so what Dr. Patterson has discovered is there's a pattern of cytokines that we see with long-haul COVID, which is different than the pattern we see for Lyme. And I'm working with him now on the pattern for mold. So we can literally look at that test and look at, okay, what is inflaming this person primarily now, because I'm looking at that inflammational pattern, and I can literally read that. Some of my patients will have all of those on a particular test, or only one, but it really helps tease apart what is — I call it public enemy number one for my patient, what do I need to address as root cause right now. So our science is improving as we go here.A Message of Hope — and Where to Learn More58:49Courtney: And that's huge. Before we go — I think all of your books, but I'm thinking specifically about Toxic and The Sensitive Patient — all the information you generously share gives people a lot of hope who've been struggling out there. And I think your mentoring and teaching so many of us helps extend some of that reach. Is there anything you'd want to convey to people out there in the throes of chronic illness who are feeling hopeless and not getting the feedback from their doctors that this is something they can get beyond?Neil: Sure. My take-home message is always: everything we talked about today is treatable. Is there hope in there? You bet there is. But if you are not getting the help you need from whoever you are seeing, find someone who understands these things. For example, I do have on my website a list of physicians that I've trained over the years that I'm comfortable that they really know what they're doing — it's a growing list. There's someone like Courtney, who's been trained for years to do this, she's good at it. Find someone who knows what they're talking about, so that you can get someone who does embrace this complexity, and will look at it in its entirety, and then get you moving in the right direction, doing the right things in the right order. To me, this can be done. I mean, I have personally helped to cure four or five thousand people with mold toxicity, and an equal number of people with Lyme disease. So we can help the vast majority of people that we're seeing. So, regardless of how long you've been sick, if you haven't been properly diagnosed and you haven't gotten the right treatment, you can be helped.Courtney: Right, right, that's great. And for physicians out there who are interested in learning more about complex chronic illness — are there resources you would point to? I'll be sharing your books, because I think those are great references — but also how people can find what you're doing currently.Neil: Sure, my books — particularly with this discussion, Toxic and The Sensitive Patient's Healing Guide would be the two most appropriate. I would add that I have just finished writing a book on this whole subject of inflammation. It's currently being edited, I hope it'll be out by early next year. So if you stay tuned to my website, I'll let people know when that's going to be available. And I think, Courtney, what you're referring to is: I do have a mentorship program for healthcare providers. We now have three hundred and fifty-plus people in the mentorship program, it keeps growing. You were in one of the first groups — we started with eight, and then people kept wanting to get in on it. So we welcome people to join. If you go to my website, which is simply neilnathanmd.com, there's a whole thing which talks about the mentorship and how to sign up for it. So I certainly welcome people who want to learn more.Courtney: And then you offer consultations and professional consultations also?Neil: I do. My consultations — I am, at this point, since I'm semi-retired, not seeing people directly. But I do offer consultations with a patient and their primary treating physician — so we all get on a Zoom together, and we will go over the details of that person's history and their lab work, and I will help outline a treatment program that looks to me like it will get people well. And actually, Courtney, I actually do a lot of that — I'm not really retired, my wife will tell you. I stay pretty busy. I love helping people. I love being able to take this complicated information and tease it apart, so that I can help people to understand what they need to do, in what order, in order to get better.Courtney: And we're all grateful — grateful that you've followed your path, because so many people have benefited personally and professionally. So thank you for bringing your wisdom and expertise, really appreciate it.Neil: You're very welcome, happy to do that.You can find Dr. Nathan's information, consultations, and mentoring program through his website at neilnathanmd.com. If you'd like to help get this information out into the world, please consider liking, sharing, or commenting.Until next time,CourtneyCourtney Snyder MDDr. Courtney Snyder MD is a holistic, functional, and environmental psychiatrist for children and adults. Find her at courtneysnydermd.com and on the Holistic Psychiatry Podcast on all major platforms.Medical DisclaimerThis podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended or implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Consult your own physician for any medical issues you may be having. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit courtneysnydermd.substack.com

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Tiff and Kristy break down monthly financial controls that protect your practice's profit. These include identifying lag and lead measures, getting your supplies in check, creating a budget around the team's fun money, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Welcome back to the Dental A Team podcast. I am your host today, Tiffanie, and I am so excited to have Miss Kristy here with me. Kristy, you have been with us for quite some time. We have done a lot of podcasts together. and I truly love and appreciate your willingness to jump on. You just came from a coaching call, so thank you for hopping over here to me. I know your brain's a little busy with   Notes and getting everything wrapped up. We do a lot for our clients. So I know Kristy, you just spent an hour with a team or or doctor, and next steps are making sure your notes are wrapped up and you get a nice little email over to them and that's what our clients come to expect. So Kristy, how are you today? Thank you for serving our clients in coaching calls and serving our clients and our audience here on the podcast today. How are you?   DAT- Kristy (00:55) I'm doing good. Happy to be here with you.   Tiffanie (00:58) Awesome, thank you. And this guys is why I normally schedule them on Mondays and I am just feverishly working to get ahead. And Kristy graciously accepted my Tuesday invite to come podcast with me. So thank you, Kristy. Kristy, I know I always say this, I kind of handpick different podcast topics to make it the most fun for you ladies while you're here with me. So I get to talk about all of the pieces and I   Pick things that I think you guys are gonna enjoy the most. I think all of you, all of us consultants could speak to all of the topics that we have, but we all kind of gear towards favorites and things we love, things we do a lot of. And something that you do a lot of is you look for the money and finding it seems to be something that you enjoy, but also something you're just really, really good at. I know Kira speaks to that often as well. And today I wanted to talk a little bit more in-depth.   on profit because I know we talk we've spoken a lot on a lot of different podcasts about AR, bringing AR down, kind of how to find those controls within the practice, but making sure we're looking at monthly financial controls that protect the practice profit was something I wanted to chat with you about today. So how's that sound Kristy? Sound awesome. Awesome. Good. Let's   DAT- Kristy (02:16) Sounds like a plan. Let's find the money.   Tiffanie (02:20) find the money. So one thing I love that we like to do with our clients   And   something we do, I think, in our personal lives too is control what we can and then, you know, leave the rest for later. We we fix the rest later, we work on the rest later. And something that we can control is how much of our profit is being spent to a certain extent. So there's different spaces within the PL, within the practice spending that we do have control over that I think we don't spend enough time projecting and looking at to be able to know.   that we are profitable or that we can create that profit. And to me, when I see a topic that says monthly financial controls that protect practice profit, I think of budgeting. I think making sure we're working with it as a means of what we already have so that we're not overextending ourselves just like we do in our personal lives. So Kristy, you work with practices within their finances and their profit a lot. What are some areas that you work specifically on   helping them to protect their profit within those numbers.   DAT- Kristy (03:28) Yeah. Well, I think it's important, Tiff, that we look at it routinely, number one, and understand what our fixed expenses are and then what are ones that we can actually maybe pull levers and see where we can budget and plan for. so many things. Again, just like we look at numbers inside of the practice, there's lag and lead measures, right?   I kind of look at the PL the same way. There's lag and lead measures. And so sometimes it's just being more proactive and really looking and planning ahead versus reactive and looking at the bank account to go, is there money?   Tiffanie (04:11) Yeah, which I think we all do that at some point, right? Personally   DAT- Kristy (04:14) Yeah.   Tiffanie (04:15) and professionally. When you're looking at a PL, I love that lead measure, lag measure. PLs are full of lag measures and doctors will look back and gosh, I have a practice that only gets them quarterly, and I'm like, I don't know how we do this. Like it's so hard. We've got to be looking at these every month, like you said. So we're looking at those like lag measures. How do you pulse within that?   those lead measures. What are you using and what are you seeing as lead measures when you're looking at those numbers monthly?   DAT- Kristy (04:42) Yeah, well, number one, we might be planning ahead for hiring a new teammate. What is that gonna cost us? And so wrapping that into our budgeting for the month, or maybe there's a new piece of equipment that we're looking to buy or a CE course we're going to, like looking ahead and planning for those expenses on a monthly basis so they're not a surprise to us when when they do hit.   Tiffanie (05:09) That's brilliant. I love that. So making sure even if we know, hey, we're gonna try to bring on an associate this year. So that associate cost, a lot of dentists know look at the associate costs and start, you know, planning for thirty percent goes over here or twenty percent or whatever you're gonna do, goes over here, start putting that aside. But to your point, Kristy, for   Hiring, something that I think we fail to think about often when we bring on an associate is the rest of the team that may need to be brought on as well. So do we need more dental assistance for the associate? Do we need another treatment coordinator to work that schedule? Sometimes, even Kristy, there's hygiene, right? There's a hygiene hire that needs to come along with that associate. So it sounds like for you, you're looking at with that practice, okay, this is our current lag measure. This is our current what we can say is.   our usual and customary employee cost. And then as we add these other additional team members, we can expect that employee cost to become X dollars. And then turning that into being able to see what the what the production and collections costs need to be in order to cover that volume.   DAT- Kristy (06:19) Yeah, you got it, tips spot on. And we can almost do that for anything that we're future pacing and planning, right? To see if it makes   Tiffanie (06:27) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (06:28) sense even.   Tiffanie (06:29) Yeah. And I as you're seeing as you're saying that too, you said planning for a a large equipment purchase. So with that, then you can look and say, okay, well, this is what our profit is or what we project our profit to be in the next coming months. Can we set aside or how much can we set aside out of that profit each month to be able to afford that large purchase rather than vice versa? I think a lot of practices   And people we say, I want or I need this, and they offer low percentage rates or no percentage rates. So instead of saving towards that thing this day and age, we just say, cool, let's get it, and I'll pay monthly to pay it off. So you're you're even thinking potentially flipping that mindset and saying, let's let's project and see when do we need to make this purchase? How much will it be? And how can we get the money for it?   DAT- Kristy (07:24) Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes we do need to finance it, but also knowing what that's gonna look like too. I mean, maybe that makes more sense. Yeah,   Tiffanie (07:33) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (07:34) agree with you, Tip. We need to kind of look at where our expenses have been, especially like with team, it's easy to look p back at the last 12 months or six months and say, this is where we've been running. You know, what's kind of funny about that is we just came off of a month where many of our clients had three payrolls.   And being able to budget for those ahead of time, right? So   Tiffanie (07:56) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (07:57) planning ahead and knowing what we're looking at, but you have to be looking at it routinely.   Tiffanie (08:03) Absolutely.   I totally agree with that. Quarterly, yearly does not, it just doesn't work. It does not, you're left in the dark so much. monthly financial control. So we can project, we can look and see, okay, where's our growth taking us? Do we need to prep and plan for any expenses? And I love your like even adding if we're adding debt, what does that added debt look like against the current PL? And then two.   I was thinking earlier about this, like what pieces do we use a lag measure for to like pull into this month for, like you said, a lead and a lag. So I know a lot of practices I have them working off of budgets, like to the max. And so I have obviously I think a lot of practices work off of an ordering budget, so a supply budget for the back office.   But I know a lot of them are like a little skewy too. They're kind of all over the place. Or they're like, it's fine. We're $3,000 over. And I'm like, $3,000 is like another percent or two sometimes. So making sure we stay in line with that, but projecting that and putting it on spreadsheets, right? So I have practices that have budgeting spreadsheets for that reason. So they know exactly how much money they have to spend. And I have dental assistants that find   that to be like a game. Like that inspires them to go find the best deals because they know they only have X amount of dollars because the spreadsheet told them and then they're entering all that data. What are you seeing outside of supply costs that you've got offices? I know I've got, you know, if you're doing some obscure things, like what are you having practices look at or have you in the past trying to gain that control maybe of their profit within the budgeting world outside of just the normal dental supplies?   DAT- Kristy (09:52) Yeah, I love that you mentioned the dental supplies and doctors, if you're not letting your team do this, like do it. And and really I liken that Tiff to going to the grocery store without a list or with a list, right? Be   Tiffanie (10:05) Mm. Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (10:06) very intentional. And I really like to have my offices ordering twice a month and you   Tiffanie (10:12) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (10:12) set the time aside, you know, Wednesday the first week of the month and Wednesday the third week of the month or something similar.   So to your point there, but also the other things that I would look at, and it's coming up big right now, especially with insurances. How much are you spending? Are you taking the credit card payments and letting another 4% go out the door? You know, so many docs are complaining about their reimbursements, but yet you're allowing them to pay you with credit card. You know, that's   Tiffanie (10:41) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (10:42) a big one that could save you.   Look at look at those. Hopefully you're entering the payments in your software and you're designating it to a payment type. Run that report and see what what how much did you take in on credit card insurance payments? And pretty much you might as well times it by four percent, you know, and see what you could   Tiffanie (11:02) Yeah, yeah.   DAT- Kristy (11:03) be saving. That's a huge one right now.   Tiffanie (11:06) Yeah, I completely agree with you. That's massive. And a lot of practices are doing credit card payments for supplies in order to get points. And then they pay off the credit card. But I do see often practices that end up and we all do that, we do this in our personal life too. We're like, I'll get the points. But then when the payment rolls on, we're like, shoot, I didn't plan for that. So now we're paying it over time and we are adding that extra whatever percentage that APR might be per month to that pay to that balance.   DAT- Kristy (11:35) Yeah. The other thing when you're talking supplies tip back in our day, we had to wait for things to come in, right? Now, truly, yeah. Now,   Tiffanie (11:42) Yeah, weeks.   DAT- Kristy (11:44) truly, most practices, they're getting it within a day or two. I I just I challenge you to reframe your mindset. Sometimes the salesperson comes in and they're like, buy three, get two free, or whatever, you know. It's like that's money sitting on your shelf. And many times, even if you   think you're gonna use it over time, that money could be worth more to you in the bank than sitting on the shelf.   Tiffanie (12:10) Yeah,   that's a really good point. And I was thinking too as you were speaking, there's so many different areas of that like quick return. I have an office that we've dug into their finances many times and their supplies are just like out of this world. And I'm like, what the heck? They were up to like 15% one month. And I was like, guys, what are you ordering? Like what is are we remodeling? Are we restocking the entire office? Like, what did we order?   And when they went back, they're like, I don't know. So they go back through and we have them on budget spreadsheets, right? Well, they go back through, and what was happening is the office manager and the front office gal were every day like, we need toilet paper. we need, and they have prime. So prime is a phenomenal tool, very dangerous tool, right? It's dangerous in my own home.   DAT- Kristy (13:04) Yeah.   Tiffanie (13:06) So being able to at the click of a button get something tomorrow or sometimes even the same day because you need it, it's very easy to just keep that open and be like, order this, order this, order this. And the next thing you know, you've spent two, three, four times your budget because you're not paying attention to it being all lumped together. So I love your ordering two times a month on the budget because it avoids that, even if you have an Amazon cart full, right? I tell them that's fine.   Put it in the Amazon cart. If that's how you want to roll, put it in the Amazon cart and you press order on the order day and you see your total. Because how many times have we gone? I used to do this and I probably should do it again. I would throw stuff in the Amazon cart and then I'd wait a couple days. And if I remembered that I needed the thing, I'd go back and I'd order it.   DAT- Kristy (13:55) Yeah.   Tiffanie (13:56) Or I'd sometimes go back in and be like, I don't know why I thought I needed that. There are so many things that I did not end up ordering.   Because I just sat on it for a couple of days. So if we do that instead of the quick instant gratification, because to your point, no matter when you order, it's gonna be there in a couple days. It used to take weeks. It used to take like a month to get implant supplies. We had to schedule implants six to eight weeks out just to ensure we had the parts and the rep would still have to bring stuff. But it's not like   DAT- Kristy (14:25) Yeah.   Tiffanie (14:26) that anymore. Like there's zero competition when it comes to shipping rates, remember, or shipping   shipping days. Remember Henry Schein was like, we'll get it to you within the within the week, free shipping. And it   DAT- Kristy (14:36) Yeah.   Tiffanie (14:37) was like, yes, I'm using you because you have that, but now everybody has it. So I love that you mentioned that.   DAT- Kristy (14:42) Yeah. I love that you said the   implant thing, Tiff, because I know even back in my day it was like, gosh, it's not here, and Doctor would spend seventy-five dollars to overnight it and I'm just looking at it like, man.   Tiffanie (14:54) Yep.   DAT- Kristy (14:55) So I hope that you guys are separating out your invoices and you're really scrutinizing those truly. Tiff, you know, when   Tiffanie (15:00) Yeah. I agree.   DAT- Kristy (15:02) you were talking, one of the other ones that's really hit me hard lately is ink and and heaven forbid, guys, if you still have the Pitney Bows.   postage machine. I challenge you to get rid of it yesterday because truly in this day and age with text to pay and I hope you're not sending postcards anymore and I hope you're not sending paper statements like the ink and the postage is just outrageous and what you're paying for those machines. Get get on, use your technology. We all have it.   Tiffanie (15:37) I   agree. I loved my Pitney Bows machine when I was in office. That was a long time ago. But I was obsessed with that machine because it was so handy. But I think to your point now, even s paper statements I think are done online and a company prints it and ship and sends it. So we don't even like print at the office and touch them anymore. It's literally all done online. So yes, get rid of the Pitney Bows. I know they're really cute.   And they're super helpful. I was attached to mine, but we all gotta say goodbye at some point. I love that.   DAT- Kristy (16:10) Yeah.   Tiffanie (16:12) another area that I've seen practices like forget that they spent on is like team fun budgeting. So I just you know got my team Starbucks three, four, five times. Like I've walked into an office, I have a couple offices that do this. And if I come to your office, yes, I do enjoy this, so by all means create a budget around it.   I'll walk in and they're like, hey, we're putting a Starbucks order in, Tiff. What do you want? And I'm like, heck yeah, right? So I get on there and it's DoorDash or Uber Eats or whatever app that's gonna deliver to the office. And I'm like, bro, this is like $125 worth of Starbucks. Like that's I know I refill my app way too often and I need a budget for that, but those types of things go unnoticed. Again, because everything's just it's not cash, we're not seeing it, it's auto online.   And it's like right now. So I have a lot of practices. My practice actually with the Amazon situation, they have an Amazon bucket, but then they also have a team fund bucket. And so they   DAT- Kristy (17:15) Yeah.   Tiffanie (17:15) have a budget every month of you know profit and amount of profit that goes over to their team fund bucket and they use it or they bank it. And so they can get future items. But that was something that we had to create for that practice because their profit   was just getting eaten up because the office manager's like, well, she needed new shoes, you know? Like it's it's uniform, I'll yeah, it's not part of your uniform allowance though. So it was just like this weird spending habits. Are you seeing things like that too, where it's just these like one off yes team appreciation, but we're when we're not budgeting for it, that's where we get confused on the P and L.   DAT- Kristy (17:55) Yeah. I th I think it's funny in listening to you talk. It's so funny how it mirrors our personal life. And again, you think about going to the grocery store. If I don't have a budget, all of a sudden, I mean, think of Costco. We walk out and it's like, man, that hurt. But if we have our   Tiffanie (18:11) Yes today.   DAT- Kristy (18:12) list and our budget that we're sticking in, we leave and and we know about what it's gonna be. So to your point, we love team fun, right? We love celebrating and doing that stuff, but   Yeah, have your budget and and even more so than that, like have your budget and let your team plan it. You know, let them   Tiffanie (18:31) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (18:31) have fun with it. But but definitely know where you're spending and know what the budget is for it.   Tiffanie (18:40) Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I actually have an office that just started a new kind of like a a kudos board, if you will, right? It's a big board and they write these kudos up there. They put the the post it sticky notes up there with so and so's name. And what they do now, instead of it being like this person got five, she gets a gift card or whatever, or we pulled her name, she gets a gift card, or he gets this. What the office manager decided to do was count up   all of the praise that's on the board at the end of the month and the number of sticky notes that she has for each one it's a dollar and then one but she has a rotating schedule so then someone is responsible for taking that pool of money and going and getting something fun for the team. And so   DAT- Kristy (19:28) Yeah.   Tiffanie (19:29) it could be a hundred dollars because they put a hundred sticky notes up there. She has she has no idea she just put the sticky notes up there and then they get that budget amount and they go   get lip glosses for the team or lunch or something with that money. And I just I thought that was really cool. But what she did was she budgeted that, right? She's like, okay, well we know what our profit is. And if I have a team allowance of X amount of dollars every month, it might roll over some months, may need more, et cetera. But she's created that budget around it as well.   DAT- Kristy (20:01) Yeah, I love that. It it's it serves so many purposes, right? Keeping the culture alive, celebrating. They could even make it around core values, but also having that budget and it gives teams something to look forward to celebrating too. So   Tiffanie (20:17) Yeah,   I agree. And give them a reason to put sticky notes up there. I'm like, heck, I'd   DAT- Kristy (20:20) Yeah.   Tiffanie (20:20) be up there all day putting sticky notes up there. You'd have to create a whole new budget.   But go ahead.   DAT- Kristy (20:25) Yeah. Tiff, you mentioned   something else. You know, a lot of us have subscriptions or apps that we're using. I think   Tiffanie (20:32) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (20:32) those at least quarterly, it's worth taking a look at and just seeing, are we using this anymore or not? I mean, yeah, dues and subscriptions is a big area for looking for some leaks there.   Tiffanie (20:48) I totally agree. I totally agree. I know I I tell myself if it's an app or if it's a subscription that you don't want to look at, you probably need to look at it. So my Starbucks app that's very easy to be like, add 25 real quick, or I I usually add 15 or 20, but the other day it was like the 25 said get an extra star, right? And I was like, cool. What's I'm gonna add it anyways, start adding 25, start adding 30. And when you look back to see how many times you just   added whatever to that app to be able to buy from that store. And when I look and I'm like, would I have bought $125 worth of Starbucks if I were using cash? Probably not. Probably not. But it's so simple to add it to the app and spend. And that's their business, that's the whole business model. And it works and it's phenomenal. But when we're looking at monthly financial controls, I think that's a huge space, Kristy.   that we forget about, like how much are we paying for these subscriptions? And realistically, Prime, if you're not using the TV, you know, the movies, the TV shows, the whatever music, all of these other pieces, the Audible that comes with it. Like if you're not using those pieces, we're only using it for shipping, to your point earlier.   I don't know if you guys have checked this or not. I love Amazon. I'm not here to say don't use them or don't subscribe. I'm not here to say that. So Amazon don't come after us, but the shipping's like two or three days more than what it was going to be. And it really just makes you stop and think. So for your practices where you're off your your team members are just like click, click, click, it's really easy way. Those are really easy ways to your point, Kristy, to take a look at what are we actually spending.   And like you said, those are our monthly financial controls, controlling when we're ordering, how we're ordering, and how much our budget is in any perspective of the practice applies or not, really are those financial controls.   DAT- Kristy (22:52) Yeah, I agree with you so much, Tiff. So take a look inside. It's not just the health of the practice inside. It's also looking at the health of the practice from the outward perspective too. And planning, right? Plan for   Tiffanie (23:04) Yes.   DAT- Kristy (23:04) it.   Tiffanie (23:05) Yes. The planning is huge. If you're not planning, you're not budgeting, please by all means do it. And if you're here saying, I feel like it's sometimes like the blocked scheduling conversation, Kristy, where they're like, Well, I can't budget because I'm overspending and I know that. Like, no, still budget and look at how much you're overspending. You should still be saying five percent of last month's collections would be this amount to order supplies. And if you're ordering   Eight, nine, or ten percent of supplies because you're building, cool. Still be in the habit of budgeting, just like block scheduling. Well, Kristy, I can't do block scheduling because I just need patience on the schedule, and we've just started. Okay, but what if what if you put it on there and you got used to it while you're building? Same thing with the budget. Like just because you're spending more than what you should be.   Because maybe you need to right now doesn't mean you can't build the habit of at least looking at it and knowing what it should be.   DAT- Kristy (24:09) I agree with you a thousand percent because even if we say five percent, if you're at eight right now and you come in at six or seven, it's still over five, but we're gonna it adds up, right? And you're gonna be pleasantly   Tiffanie (24:20) A massive savings.   DAT- Kristy (24:21) surprised at the end. So yeah.   Tiffanie (24:24) Agreed.   Yeah, agreed. I love it. All right, action items. I love your perspective, Kristy, what you said looking at the PL's monthly and looking for the lag measures, which is everything a PL is, and the lead measures that are within that because they're there no matter what, your lead measures are in there as well. So take a look where are you budgeting, where are you not budgeting, and where are you off budget when you are budgeting? I think those are the three key pieces and look at the PL monthly.   Kristy, I knew this would be a really good one for us to ping and pong off of. Thank you so much for your words of wisdom and for being willing to jump in with me in the middle of your coaching call day.   DAT- Kristy (25:04) Absolutely, it's a pleasure.   Tiffanie (25:06) Awesome. All right, guys, go take a look at your PNLs. If you need help deciphering any of it, if you need help like putting it together, I know a lot of practices come to us and say, hey, I can't read this because it's confusing and my CPA now does it differently than my CPA before. Well, guess what? You have all the tools at your disposal to ask your CPA for what you want. So reach out to Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and we are happy to help you get all of that in order, learn how to read the PNL, do all of the pieces and budget.   We are happy, happy, happy to help and leave us a five-star review. Let us know what you thought of this podcast and any tips or tricks you may have for others and any nuggets you took away from us. And just like always, we will catch you next time.  

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Professional Organizer Helps Declutter Organize and Beautify Your Home and Your Life an Interview with Nikki Boyd (Episode 299)   Ecclesiastes 5:13 AMP “There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches being kept and hoarded by their owner to his own misery.”   *Transcription Below*   Nikki Boyd is a professional organizer, author of the Beautifully Organized series, and founder of the At Home With Nikki brand. Known for her elegant yet practical approach to organization, she inspires women to create homes that feel calm, beautiful, and intentionally lived in. Through her books, courses, and social media presence, Nikki shares simple, thoughtful systems that help people simplify their spaces and live more intentionally each day. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, Real Simple, and House Beautiful.   LOOKING FOR HELP WITH YOUR LIFE? VISIT OUR WEBSITE | SUBSCRIBE OUR CHANNEL | JOIN OUR MASTER COURSE Ready to get organized? SCHEDULE A VIRTUAL SESSION Grab the books: The Beautifully Organized Series  Connect with Nikki on social: Instagram | Facebook | TikTok   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Questions and Topics We Cover: Where do your clients typically feel most overwhelmed and what is your process for eventually leading them to experience more peace?  Can you give us the best place to begin decluttering today? What is the best way to begin both decluttering and organizing kid spaces in our homes?    Related Savvy Sauce Episodes: Relationships and Opportunities that Arise from Using Your Gifts with Founder of Neighbor's Table, Sarah Harmeyer, Episode 47 Best Cleaning Tips from Clean Mama, Becky Rapinchuk, Episode 128 Experiencing Joy, Nourishment, and Connection at the Table with Abby Turner, Episode 168 Making Your Home a Place of Love and Peace: Special Patreon Re-Release with Devi Titus   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:49) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   I am so excited to get to host my guest for today, Nikki Boyd. Nikki is a professional organizer and also a prolific author. If you can see all of these resources, this is part of the Beautifully Organized series. Nikki is also the founder of At Home with Nikki brand. She is known for her elegant yet practical approach to organization, and she inspires women especially to create homes where they feel calm, beautiful, and intentionally lived in. She's going to share more of that with us today. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Nikki.   Nikki Boyd: Hi, I'm so glad to be here. Excited to be here.   Laura Dugger: Well, I'm delighted to get a chat with you, and I have to say your career absolutely fascinates me. So, will you share your path to getting to do the work that you get to do today?   Nikki Boyd: (1:49 - 7:21) Absolutely. It was very unexpected because a little secret, well, it's not a secret because I've been talking about ever since I've written my books, but I was a very messy child. So, as a child, you would have thought I would be doing what I do now. And so, it really was unexpected in the fact that I was a military spouse, just traveling around the world, supporting my husband in his dreams of being in the military and doing what he does. And depending on where we were, I would work different jobs. So, I have a very colorful work history and oftentimes frustrated by the fact of not being able to have a career and feeling like I want a career.   But it's funny how God works, and that's why we have to be patient, and we have to have faith because every last job that he provided added to my career today. And it was a necessity, and I didn't see that back then. And so, when he retired, he was like you supported me all these years. Now, it's time for me to do that in whatever your dream is of what you wanted to do. I had no idea what it was. I didn't know. I was like, what? I mean, I think I was right at 40 at the time, and I was like, okay, what is it I'm supposed to do? I'm trying to find myself at 40.   And so, I remember when we lived in England, I had went over a lady's house, and I had met for the first time, and she was having like this crafting party. And we went into a room in her home, and I had the best day. And she had, I believe it was 10 kids. They were a family of 10, yes. But it was the most peaceful environment. We sat there all day and crafted, heard no kids, had a beautiful time. When she was there, she was telling me back, this was years ago when YouTube wasn't a thing. And she was telling me about how, yeah, I like to film my crafts, and I put them on YouTube. And I was like, what is YouTube? Never thought anymore about it.   When we moved back to the States, I remembered just that experience. And I remember her saying the YouTube thing. And so, when I was trying to figure out what I was going to do, I said, you know what? Let me look into this. And just, I started filming myself, just doing whatever I was doing around my house. And then, the only person watching was my mom. Then over time, she said, put that there, put it out there. And I did. No one watched for the longest time, but I just enjoyed the process of feeling like I had that friend girl by my side in my home, as I went and organized and did the different things. And by this point, my home was my everything as far as providing for my family, a beautiful environment when they came home, and just being able to have a home that served others. And so, it just started trickling from then. People started watching. I started building a brand. And then, 2017 opened the doors to my professional organizing business, then started writing the books, five books in now on a Beautifully Organized series.   And even during that journey, I questioned God about it, because I would say I was about three years in where I wasn't really doing anything but filming. And I was like, Lord, this is not what I'm supposed to be doing. This is not a career. This is not... And I was battling with that. And I remember one night, I was in my bed and I couldn't sleep. And so, I got up and I got on my computer, and I had an email from a lady overseas. And she said, I just want to let you know that I got out of my bed for the first time in two years, because I lost my husband. I have three little ones. And I was just laying in my bed for two years, just numb. And I started watching your videos. And today, I got... You can imagine, I was tears. She said, “I got out of my bed for the first time. I organized my fridge. I set spaces for my kids' lunch. And I went out and bought me a teacup just for myself. And that to me was the first sign that God gave me that, Nikki, this does have purpose.   And so, I went on from that, and I just kept trucking along. And then as human as I am, a few years later, I questioned God again. I wasn't satisfied. And I was like, okay, God, yeah, I know, but I don't feel... I'm not feeling it. And he sent me another sign. I used to love covering. I used to love covering my Bible, making Bible covers. And so, I made a Bible cover on my YouTube channel. I was like, okay, I'm going to give away a Bible. We're doing a giveaway for a Bible. And so, I did the giveaway, just randomly picking someone, doing the thing. And then I mailed off the Bible. And I got a message from a lady, and she said, my goal when I got off work was to come home and to commit suicide. When I came home, your Bible was... I cry every time I tell the story. When I came home, the Bible that was on my doorstep, and I knew that was a sign from God that, hold on, hold on, keep going. And then I told the Lord from there, okay, I'm not questioning you anymore. This is the journey that I'm supposed to be on. And from that point, I just settled into it and grew from there. And that's what I do now.   Laura Dugger: (7:22 - 7:44) Wow. We got tears in my eyes from that story as well. Praise the Lord that you waited on Him, and you were still faithful in that journey, even when He wasn't showing you the whole path. But as a Jesus follower, Nikki, why do you think it is a worthy goal to pursue having a beautifully organized home?   Nikki Boyd: (7:45 - 9:48) Because that's how we serve others. That's how we do His work. That's how, not only when I say serve others, it's serving our family, along with our church, our community. When we establish an environment where we can welcome people in, or even if they're not coming into our home, where we're able to be in a spirit to where we can serve others outside the home. My kitchen is not chaotic, so I can make those cupcakes that I can take to church on Sunday, or I feel motivated and rejuvenated. I always say our home is our rejuvenation space. It's a space we come to to rejuvenate, and so that we can do the work we need to do when we walk outside those doors. And so, it just feeds so many things, along with it saves us time, it saves us money, it saves us from stress. And our God's an orderly God, and so we look to Him for that inspiration.   I always share too, is the first time when we open the Bible, we look at creation, and we see how He's the ultimate designer, and how He's so meticulous, and He's so thoughtful. And so, when I'm organizing my home, or decorating my home, I'm thinking like God did when He was creating the earth. He really took time and thought, and He rested Him. It was very intentional. And so that's a lot of how I like to approach our home, and how we set up systems, and how we work through the space. Because when you have a home that is in chaos, and when you have a home that just is overwhelmed with stuff, you're really just taken away from your family, taken away for yourself. I know I bought a wooden spoon. I know I got a wooden spoon here. Where's that wooden spoon? But then you have to go out and buy another wooden spoon when it's already been provided. Mm-hmm.   Laura Dugger: (9:48 - 10:05) So well said. And so, from your years of experience, where do your clients typically feel most overwhelmed? And then what is your process for eventually leading them into a place where they're getting to experience more peace?   Nikki Boyd: (10:06 - 11:38) So, a lot of spaces that clients are overwhelmed by, garages are big. The shoes at the entryway door, I hear that a lot, especially with families. You come in and the first thing, I always say your entryway is your first impression space. That's the first experience someone has when they walk into your home. And so, a pile of shoes is not the most engaging. And so that's a lot in the kitchen. The kitchen is a big... I guess there's a lot of places. Closets are big. Closets for my ladies, they're big. And so how I usually advise people is we have to start small. If you look at everything, the whole thing, you can get overwhelmed and your motivation can just diminish. So, I say, get those small wins in. Okay. So, we're at the entryway. Maybe just start with one thing. I always say, I like to use my senses to put things together. And so, I say, okay, how can I incorporate my five senses into the entryway? What I see, what I feel, what I smell. And just start with one thing. It may be the entryway table, the top of it. Okay. I'm going to take everything off of that. And I'm going to reset that today. I have that small win and then build on it. Tomorrow, it may be the shoes. Okay. The shoes. I'm going to create a system for the shoes. And the small wins is what equals the big... You know the story of the tortoise and the hare where you run that... You don't run that fast race with organization. You run the small race. Take your time. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (11:39 - 11:57) Okay. That's helpful. So, when we're taking our time, do you even have a specific time limit? If somebody is just an average person with the average amount of stuff, if they want it top to bottom, their ideal home, is there a regular amount of time that that takes?   Nikki Boyd: (11:57 - 13:50) So, what I like to do, and I do this in my home still to this day, is I assign every room has a month. And so that way I'm very intentional. I'm focused on the whole house. I'm able to be very intentional. So, say the... I always start with the home office in January because that's when we need to go through our home files. That's when it's getting tax season. And so that's a great home office month. And that way you have all month to focus only on the office. So, I usually say, let me take the first three days and just sit in the office and think, okay, what works in here? What doesn't work in here? What do I desire for the space? And just kind of give yourself a couple days for that. And then the next day it'll be, the next few days will be about decluttering. Let me get everything out of this room that does not serve me in my current lifestyle, current life, because we want our homes to represent our life today, not our life 10 years ago. And so, then it's about taking a week and just decluttering the space. And then the next week it's about cleaning. Okay, now that we got all this stuff out, let's spend a couple of days cleaning. So having a whole month for a room, it really allows you to really be intentional, take your time, not stress yourself out, incorporate the family. And it's a great way of maintenance plan ongoing. So even though my home feels organized all the way through, it's great for maintenance because organization is not something that you do and you never have to do it again. It's just like cleaning. I wish I could clean one time and it's clean for the rest of my life, but that's not the reality, especially not with family. And so, the same with organization. So, I would recommend that, just kind of assigning every room in your house a month. Laura Dugger: (13:52 - 18:01) I like that pace. And I guess it's initially surprising, but Jesus always seems to have a certain pace that is wise and sustainable, and it does often surprise us.   We'll come back shortly after a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831.   And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home.   And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team.   The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything, and Sue's continued generosity was astonishing.   I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Ms. Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time or looking to upgrade or downsize or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made.   So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Nikki, I love choosing a theme for every episode with a scripture verse, and we always include it at the top of our show notes for each episode on our website. So, the one that I selected for today is found in Ecclesiastes 5:13, and it says, "There is a grievous evil, which I have seen under the sun, riches being kept and hoarded by their owner to his own misery." And that just stood out at me when we were planning this conversation. And it reminds me of something that I noticed about the book written, I think I'm saying her name right, by Shira Gill. And it's the one where you were featured. So, it, for anybody who hasn't read it, it highlights various organizers. But you all seem to share this similar conclusion that in America, the most common problem that leads to disorganization and chaos in all of our homes is simply holding onto too much stuff. So, will you share more of your experience with this, whether that's for yourself or with clients that you've worked with?   Nikki Boyd: (18:02 - 20:46) And it's hard because we live in a society where consumption is encouraged. We can't look, right? And so, it's a hard battle to fight. And then it's multiple people in the home a lot of times. So, you got multiple people bringing in stuff. And so, it's important to really have decluttering as a focus always in our home and having a system to just kind of move things out in a timely way, because it's a struggle because we build this attachment to stuff, you know, and we build it up for different ways. Either we paid a lot of money for it, so we can't, it doesn't fit, but I paid good money for this, so I got to keep it, even though it doesn't fit, you know, or someone gave it to us. I really don't like it, but so-and-so gave it to me. So, I have obligation, you know, that sentimental obligation.   But one tool that I have used over the years that has been really successful in helping me rid myself of clutter is to think about it in a way of, I'm being selfish. And so there, you know, I don't ever use this cup. I do, but I'm just saying, I don't ever use this cup. There's somebody out there that needs a cup that could be blessed by it, but it's sitting right here in my home. And I have the opportunity to move it on to be a blessing to someone else. So, when I look at things in my home that I'm not using, I would say, Nikki, stop. That can be right now blessing. And I pray, but I pray, God, please help this to get where it needs to get. Please help it to go where it needs to get. And so that has really, for me, been a way to really, and not only for myself, but for my family, to encourage my family to say, hey, there's somebody out here that could use this toy. There's a kid out there that really, they don't have any toys, but if we donate it, their parents can afford this toy, you know? So just, you know, really thinking outside of ourselves with the stuff and thinking on how we can really serve others with it. There might be even people in our community, young couples that are just starting out, you know, we have silver pieces that we never used. We might've got it 20 years ago and never used it, move it on to someone else, you know? So that's really helped me with decluttering.   And then having a system for it, you know, having a system in your home where you really, really are actively moving things away from your home, you know? And so, one system that I love to use is having a place where I can just drop things that, like a basket that every time I see something that, oh, yeah, that could bless someone, boom. And then that way you can just kind of put it, keep it in, take it to your trunk of your car. And the next time you pass in through a donation center, you can donate it. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (20:47 - 21:00) That's good. And that gives us purpose in this process. I really like that. So, can you give us, do you even have a recommendation just for the very best place if we want to start decluttering today?   Nikki Boyd: (21:01 - 23:14) In your home, you mean like where to start? Yes. Okay. Remember I said, start small. So, one thing that I recommend is going in your kitchen because I have not met a person who has not had what they call a junk drawer. And I don't like calling anything in our homes junk because we don't have junk in our homes. We have beautiful homes, right? And so, I like to call it the utility drawer. So go in your kitchen. If all the listeners go in your kitchen today and open that utility drawer, and that is the starting point. And what you want to do is the first step you want to do is you want to give yourself an immediate boost by just taking everything out of that drawer and sitting it on the counter and looking at your beautiful empty drawer. That's that instant motivation that you get from seeing it clean and empty. And then the next step is just to give it a nice wipe down and clean so that you know that this is your new, not junk drawer, utility drawer. Rename it. It's important what we say, you know, how we speak, you know, what we come out of our tongue. So, utility drawer. And then from that point, you have all the stuff there. And the first way to start tackling it is because if you're looking at a big pile of stuff, you don't know what you have a lot of times. So, we have to get like items together so that we can realistically see what we have. And so just take a couple minutes and just at the counter sort like items together, pins, sticky notes, just get all those like items together. And then you have a clear visual of, okay, why do I have 20 lighters? I don't burn candles like that, you know. So, then you say, okay, so I'm going to keep two lighters and then everything else goes to donate and just work your way through each category. But what you've done is you've broken it down, something that's a big blob of clutter into something that's reasonable to assess and then deal with. And then from that point, what's left, you then start with the fun part of putting it in your drawer, creating your sections, and then saying, okay, you know what? How about I donate all these lighters and just keep the pretty green one that I love? So that's how I recommend. So, start with that one junk drawer. And once you have that success, you've built the motivation to then move to another part of your kitchen.   Laura Dugger: (23:15 - 23:31) Okay. That's so interesting too, just even how you say pausing to appreciate that beauty of an empty drawer. And it is true that I think even clearing things out, that is an automatic win that makes the space more beautiful.   Nikki Boyd: (23:32 - 24:42) Yes. It feels good. Because you're feeling lighter, right? You got all the junk and stuff, let's not call it stuff, over to the side and you feel lighter. And even as hard as it is to declutter for a lot of folks, they feel so good after it's done. It feels so good once you get that stuff away from you. So, it's the same, you're feeling lighter. It gives you just a kind of room to breathe a little bit, and you don't realize it because we go through our day just working and living around all this stuff that really is just kind of heavy.   Laura Dugger: (24:43 - 24:47) Absolutely. Yeah. Kind of open up the windows and air it out.   Nikki Boyd: (24:47 - 24:49) Open up the windows. Yes, yes.   Laura Dugger: (24:50 - 25:07) Well, maintaining home order and organization becomes a lot more complex when we add more people into our home. So, what's the best way to begin both decluttering and organizing the kids' spaces in our homes?   Nikki Boyd: (25:08 - 30:07) So, when I work with families, a lot of times they want to jump right in and say, okay, they want to talk about the stuff and all that. And I always kind of say, let's back up a little bit because we don't want to go in and create all these systems and then try to introduce it to the family because a lot of times that doesn't work. We have to get everybody kind of together. And one thing that's huge for me, my parents instilled it in us as family meetings, like weekly family meetings, because just like if you think about a company, a company, if they did not have their team meetings and everybody just came to work and did their own thing, they couldn't be successful. No one's on the same page. No one's communicating. No one understands the mission and the goals, and you can't be successful that way. So, it's the same with our family. If we don't talk about our goals, if we don't have a mission statement for our family, how do we know as a family that we're on the same accord and how do we move? We live in the same space. So, it's important to kind of establish a family meeting, whether you even do it every two weeks, even if it's once a month, but just having that time where you come together as a family so that you can all be on the same page.   And I talk about this in my home planner, Beautifully Organized Home Planner, is establishing that mission statement. And that's so important because, especially for our kids, so that they know kind of how we move within our family. And so, as a child, I actually didn't know this, but as a child, I got my mission statement for my family as a child. The very first scripture, Joshua 24:15, my mom, do you remember the little bread box that had all the scripture? You pick a scripture a day. And the very first scripture I ever learned was, "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." The very first, and it's always stuck with me. And so that was when I became an adult, that became our mission statement for our family. And so, it makes it easy to kind of set the tone. And when you have the family meetings, you always want to set the tone with your mission statement to kind of keep reiterating that.   But then you want to also move into having those check-ins. A family is always coming and going all the time, right? And so family meetings give you the time to say, everybody go around, kind of, how are you doing? What's your highlight of the week? And what did you struggle with this week? And that gives you that moment to really make sure everybody is okay. One, the family meetings, you're teaching your kids how to communicate, how to work out problems, how to manage things. Have you ever had that situation where your kid comes to you at nine o'clock at night and said, hey, I got a school project due the next. We need to go to Walmart. I got a school project due. I need a poster board. Family meetings solve that problem because in that meeting, you're talking about, okay, what are our needs for this week? You know, what's the schedule this week? A lot of times as women, we take on a lot of the home responsibilities that really we should be teaching our kids so that when they leave the home, they have it. How to load a dishwasher, how to fold a towel. You can incorporate these small teaching lessons in the family meetings, you know? So, there's so many just benefits from that one, implementing that one system in your home, family meetings. So that's, for your listeners, that's the first thing that I would do. Set a time for family meetings. You may get resistance in the beginning. Push through. Because I tell you, when they get older, they will remember that and they will appreciate the time that you took to really bring the family together and have those meetings, even if they're kind of not appreciating it as young teenagers or kids. But that sets the tone. And even if you're single and you live alone, have your family meeting. You're still a family. You know, have that meeting where you sit down and you look at your budget, you look at your schedule, you look at kind of check-ins with yourself. You know, what was the tough for me this week? What was, you know, so whether you're a family of one or a family of 10, you know, that's the first start in that.   The next start is to not create systems on your own. You want the family to be a part of the process. So, one of the issues, I'll share a real-life issue that I really had in my home was I had, we're empty nesters. And so, it's just my husband and I and our two Yorkies. And my husband, he is who he is. I'm not trying to change him. When he comes in, he's going to put the work shoes here and he's going to drop this. You can follow the trail. And so, I was like, okay, by the front door, we don't need these shoes, you know? And so, I was like, okay, what can I do about the shoes to make him comfortable and me comfortable? So, I came up with, we got family shoes. So, I got these family shoes. They're the same shoe. They look kind of like, what's the shoe? Like clogs, but they're waterproof. What's the ones everyone has?   Laura Dugger: (30:08 - 30:09) I'm blanking on the name.   Nikki Boyd: (30:09 - 31:39) I can't remember. But anyway, they're shoes that, you know, I said, okay, these are home shoes and they're color coded. I have yellow, he has blue, but the simplicity of it being the same shoe takes away the visual color when you, visual clutter when you walk in the house. And it's great because we put them on to go walk the dogs. We go in and out all the time. We put them on and that's the only shoes that stay by the door, but it works. So how I had the buy-in, because if I just bought those shoes and put them there, he would probably walk past the shoes, and you know. So, what I did was I was like, honey, can we make a beautiful tray? I got this idea for us having home shoes. Can we make a tray? So, we Saturday, him and I together, we built this tray. He got out there doing this and he was invested because he built the tray. I ordered beautiful gold labels with his name on it, metal labels and very intentional. And it's gorgeous sitting by the door. It's so cute. He's sitting by the door and he has buy-in now because he made that tray. He's proud of that tray and he uses those shoes. He loves those shoes. And so, when we create systems, we want to make, find ways to incorporate the family so that they have a connection to the system. You don't want to just go put a bin or a basket and they expect the family to all kind of have buy-in with it. So that's how I would kind of move forward with incorporating the family with that kind of thing.   Laura Dugger: (31:40 - 32:30) I love all of that. And really, I just absolutely adored your recommendation for the family home meetings. I loved reading about that in your books. And one of them, it was from the Beautifully Organized Home Planner. You laid out even these titles. I'll just read a few of them. Going over the family schedule, meal planning, home issues, successes and struggles, home needs, like you said, maybe a family need for a field trip or home products to purchase, and teaching time, such as how to budget or how to fold a towel. And I love those practical tips. So, are there any other success stories from your family or others or final tips that you want to share about that home meeting, that family meeting specifically?   Nikki Boyd: (32:31 - 33:40) One tip that I think could be very helpful is when it comes to the meal planning, because that's always a stressor for a lot of families, coming home, what are we going to have for dinner? I didn't meal plan. So, one thing you can do is create a list, a running list of all your ideal meals for your family. It may be spaghetti and meatballs or steak and potatoes, just different meal combinations. And that is your master list of meal combinations. Then in your family meetings, it's not necessarily about trying to figure out meal planning. You just have every family member, okay, pick your meal that you want for the week. So, everybody is kind of contributing. If you're cooking five days out of the week, everybody picks a meal from the list. So, it's like you don't have to kind of think up a combination. You just kind of pick and plug and play. You know what I'm saying? So, I would recommend that creating a master list of combination meals, and then everybody just kind of choose a meal or you can use it solo. You can say, okay, I'm just going to shop my list and put it on the calendar. So that solves a big problem. That's been very useful for a lot of families when it comes to meal planning.   Laura Dugger: (33:41 - 33:55) Okay. I literally am going to start that today. Usually, my husband and I will come together and sync up our calendars and everything for the week, but this is good motivation. I think it'll be so much more beneficial to include the whole family.   Nikki Boyd: (33:55 - 34:27) And also, what's great about that is all of these things have multiple benefits. The other benefit for that is you're teaching the kiddos how to kind of coordinate, how to come together and coordinate together our meal for the family. Also, if you have that picky eater, you can kind of get buy-in because they've had the opportunity to really choose what we're eating. And so, they'll have a little more buy-in because that was their selection. So, there's several benefits from having the family put the meal plan together.   Laura Dugger: (34:28 - 34:40) I love that so much. And Nikki, do you also have suggestions for the simplest ways to stay on top of all the paper that comes into our home?   Nikki Boyd: (34:41 - 39:27) When you asked me in the beginning, what's a big problem? I didn't mention that, but paper clutter is huge. In fact, before the podcast, I had a client session and that's what we dealt with was paper. And so, one thing is just figuring out how can I stop the paper from coming in? Let's stop the problem, try to kind of halt the problem, and then we'll deal with the backlog. So, one is with mail. So, I like to say treat mail like it has a disease, like it has COVID or something. You don't want COVID in your house. So okay, when I go to mail, as I'm walking from the mailbox, I'm kind of like pulling. And then another thing is to have a sorting station. So, if you have family members that multiple people that have mail, or even if you're single and you have mail that's like maybe bills, and then you have maybe magazines, you can have a sorting system right in your kitchen or wherever you tend to drop that mail. But instead of having a basket where it just kind of piles up, have more of a sorting system.   And so, I like recommending... In fact, can I grab it real quick? Because in my session, I was sharing this with my client. Because so say you have, I love something like a box like this. It's an acrylic box and it's multifunctional in the fact that you can put your family calendar down in the front. And because it's acrylic, you can use a dry erase to kind of put your calendar items on. So, it's double duty. So, on the counter in the kitchen, you have your family calendar, or you can use it for the meals or whatever you want. But then you have your hanging files, and you can have one for each family member. Because sometimes you have kids in college that live at home and they get mail or your husband or whatever, or however you want to set it up. Everybody has your phone. That way when you come in, it's easy to drop in there. And I would even have one for magazines. What I would not allow in here is junk mail. I would take junk mail directly to the trash. I would also try to kind of eliminate as much junk mail coming into my mailbox. So, if you can stop getting the advertisements and getting the things with your bills, doing more electronic statements versus having to mail the statements, that can always be a game changer too. But this could be a great system for the mail and it's neat and clean and it kind of minimizes the paper clutter when it comes to that.   Another way is paper clutter that outside of mail that a lot of folks have is just like their home files. So, they don't really have a system for keeping home files. And so, it just tends to create piles around the house. And so, I've always, and again, when I told you that, you know, I had all those jobs in the past. And so I was in England, I was a registrar at a school, and I learned about a binder system there. They kept all their files in binders. And that's what I use for my home files ever since, because it was just like a light bulb. It was my aha moment. And it's basically having a binder for kind of the different categories of things that you need to keep on file. So, your home mortgage paperwork. So, I have one file where all the homes that you bought, you keep all of that paperwork in there. You have one for vital records, you know, just different things that you keep, you have in a binder. And it just is a really efficient way to create that home management, you know, that home file system and not have the papers all over.   With that, one thing that, so with that, like even with the system that I showed with the mail coming in, you have to tack on that component of, okay, I have to address things. So even if you come in and you put the mail in there, you have magazines in one, you have your mail, you can't just leave it, or it starts to pile up and that will get crazy. So, what I do is I always say Fridays at 2 PM is my cutoff. So, every Friday at 2 PM, I have to, before I go into my weekend, I have to clear out. So, setting a, just a intentional time that you do a clear out. So that is the component that a lot of people miss. Some people are good about putting things in a system, but that follow-up. And so, with any mail system or any filing system, you have to have that, that component. And I like to tie it to my weekend, just like if you were working a job, you know, you have to, if you don't clock out, you might not get paid. Right. They need to see that timecard, you know, back in the day now. But the same with, with this, before I start my weekend, I gotta clean up the mail bin.   Laura Dugger: (39:29 - 40:49) By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living. When you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes, as you read through the transcriptions, because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that, and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.   You also teach that another crucial factor of maintaining a beautifully organized home is keeping it clean and tidy. So, what's a realistic cleaning schedule that we could try out?   Nikki Boyd: (40:52 - 43:11) So, the thing that is just a game changer is the 10-minute sweep before you go to bed. Taking 10 minutes and just walking around your house and in 10 minutes, everybody in the house stops and just do whatever you can do. Put the remote control back, clean up the dinner dishes. Because if you think about it, if you're a family of four, 10 minutes is 40 minutes. That's 10 minutes of work per person. So that's a 40 minutes of cleaning. So that's one thing is incorporate a 10-to-15-minute sweep every night before you go to bed. And that's just walking around doing whatever you can do to pick up. Not structured, just everybody just pick up for 10 minutes, play music, play a song and do it for five minutes.   The other thing that works for a lot of folks that I've shared is when you end your workday or end your day, add on an hour. So, what I used to do is when I worked outside the home, when I got home, I used to love watching Law and Order all the time. And so, I would get on and I would put Law and Order on and that was a one-hour episode. And I would not sit down, and I would do everything for that one hour. I would clean up, I would get my clothes ready for the next day, I would prep dinner. So, I always told myself, I don't get off work at four o'clock, I get off work at five o'clock. And so, I had Law and Order in the background, it made me feel like I wasn't just not miss cleaning. I've grown since then. Now I love my inspirational music more. That was back in my day. We grow. But that one doing it that way, adding, tacking on an extra hour, it was great because the rest of the evening I had for myself. I mean, clothes were picked out, dinner was done, house was clean, no pressure. And so sometimes what we do is we come in and then we get distracted by the kids asking for this or doing this. And then we sit down, let me sit down a minute from work. And it just is, it takes our time. It just, it takes our time. But if we're very intentional about, okay, no, I'm not off work yet. Let me do this. And then I have the rest of the evening.   Laura Dugger: (43:12 - 43:26) So that's good. And I feel like that's kind of low hanging fruit that we can apply right away. Are there also any tips you have for what we should be doing weekly or monthly or quarterly or even annually?   Nikki Boyd: (43:27 - 45:37) Yeah, there's different routine. I think there's there in my book, I have it broken down. I think when you think of cleaning, you want to think of it, you have daily cleaning, you have weekly cleaning, you have monthly cleaning, and then you have quarterly cleaning, seasonal cleaning. Because there's seasonal things that you want to do to, again, go back to saving that time, saving that stress. And it's things like cleaning out the vents and even having the air conditioner service so that when the summer hits, you're not dealing with an issue. So, if we have these systems in place to tackle our cleaning at certain points, then it really solves a problem from having issues.   And so, what I would do is I would sit down and I would say, okay, the sweep that I talked about 10 minutes, that's a daily. So that would be my daily thing. And then I would not create a system at this point for me, I don't like to have to think about outside of my 10-minute sweep cleaning every day. I just don't. And so, I would just say, create a routine where you could maybe have one day a week where that's where you're tackling kind of the bulk of your cleaning, such as if you're mopping floors and handling your floors, handling the deeper items, dusting, those are weekly. So, I would do those weekly. But daily, the sweep, that helps maintain all of the other stuff in dishes daily, you have to do that. I like doing a dishwasher system of my family know, don't put anything in the sink. When you wake up, my job is the dishwasher stays empty for them. And then that way they always know dishes don't touch a sink, dishes touch the dishwasher. And then I make sure to have it unloaded by the morning at the start of their day so that they can then always unload. So, there's little systems like that to help keep things maintained as far as cleaning up, but I just don't encourage having a routine where you feel like every day I have to just spend a lot of time cleaning. But that 10-minute sweep is the secret weapon guys, the 10-minute sweep.   Laura Dugger: (45:38 - 45:57) I love it. And even the dishes example, it really doesn't take more effort to put it into the dishwasher. So, I love time-saving tricks like that. Are there a few more helpful ways that you can share how we can maximize function throughout our home?   Nikki Boyd: (45:58 - 50:39) Yeah, sure. So, God has given us a beautiful thing in our senses and what we see, what we taste, what we smell. And so, I'm always, you hear me say that all the time, use that tool he gave us to implement the systems in your home. So, when you go in a space, say, okay, when I walk in this space, how can I engage what I hear? How can I engage what I see, what I taste? And use that to start implementing the system of organization. And then the first step that I always tell everyone outside of that is, if you have a home right now that you feel it's just overwhelming, you don't know where to start, the family's just all over, it's just, we got a lot going on and I don't have time even at night because I got to go somewhere tonight. So, what I'll say is one, give yourself grace, start there, breathe, it's going to be okay. And remember, you can do this. The next thing is give yourself a small win, just immediately go to the utility drawer and say, that's the first, for everybody, that's the first thing, give yourself, because it's a proof to you, you know you can do it.   And then next, when everybody goes to bed tonight, get you a cup of tea or your preferred drink and go sit in the first space that's frustrating you, the main space. And don't put pressure on yourself to try to figure it out. Don't run out to the store trying to buy things and say, I'm going to get this place in order, the worst thing you can do. Just go have a cup of tea and sit in that space and breathe. And I promise you, and I think it's the point of just letting God, let you relax and give you the information you need to do what you need to do. And I find that when I sit in the space, it saves me money, it saves me time because I'm not going on my own accord, going out, running the target. I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, okay, this is a lot, this is a lot, help me figure this out. And when, after I just sit there and be, I start the process of just trying to figure it out and say, okay, the first step I'm going to do is I'm going to go get a box and everything that's trash, I'm going to put in here and get rid of all the trash and just steps, incremental steps, trash, then things. Okay. I'm going to shop. And I like using that word shop. I'm going to shop my room, this room, this is the room of the month. I'm going to shop this room for help. Who can I bless? Who can I, what can I take and bless? You know what? I really don't, I don't use this. Let me send that off. And then you'll start lightening your load. So that's kind of the steps I would take. It's not the traditional step of walking in and it's just, let's declutter. Sometimes you got to sit back, and you got to be a little bit before you, you jump in so that you make smart decisions.   One thing, please don't ever, I never encourage anyone to just kind of get motivated and say, okay, run a target and buy a bunch of bins and baskets. And I'm going to come back and organize the pantry. It's a temporary fix because you haven't given yourself the opportunity to just really think out what you really need. And a lot of times you have what you need right in your home. It's about thinking outside of the box. For example, yeah, I could go out and buy an expensive jewelry box, but this is my jewelry box. I had this beautiful bowl in my kitchen. I was like, oh, this is the perfect jewelry. I love it. It's easy. It functions. I don't have to open anything when I want my bracelet. It has just my jewelry that I'm wearing in this life. It's gorgeous. No one knows what it is. It works. So, a lot of times in our home, things are multifunctional and we don't even think about it. For example, I like sitting out little games and cards in my office to remind me to do something fun before I start work. This is a soap dish I had. This is where I keep my little cards in my soap dish. It used to be a soap dish, but now it's a beautiful card rest and it looks so cute. So, I challenge you not to go out into the store and consume more, but think about how can the things that I do love, how can I bring new life to them and use them to incorporate in my home to help function? So, there's so many things, even that tray that I talked about for the shoes, you might have a tray that's sitting on your dining room table that you could use for a shoe tray. So that's another thing to think about when you're implementing systems in your home.   Laura Dugger: (50:40 - 50:50) I love that. Okay. So that answers some of the function, but you're also starting to tie in beauty. How can we level up our style in our home as well?   Nikki Boyd: (50:50 - 54:24) Yeah. So, the thing with style is everybody's style is different. And so, what I find a lot of times when I'm working with folks is they Pinterest and they'll see all of these things and that's what they feel they want, but they seem to never can achieve it. And it's actually because I find a lot is because they have their own style and they need to tap into that instead of tapping into everyone else's. I think it's good to use inspiration. I love inspiration but use it as that to bring you back to what you truly love, because you don't want to go paint your wall green and think, oh, I really don't like green. I forgot about that. So that's one thing is to really know that we all have our own, God's given us all our own. We're all different. We're all special. We all have a beautiful style about ourselves.   And I'm going to say it again, because it's such a powerful tool. Those senses, that is the secret weapon to incorporating style in your home. So, when you come in and you say, okay, let's take the entry way, for example, again, we go to the entry way, because that's such an important part. That's the first space that welcomes people. Okay. When someone comes into my home, how can I engage their sense of taste? Ah, I'm going to create a little drawer. I have these little bowls here. I'm going to put little bowls in the drawer and I'm going to put mints in different candies so that when guests come over, I can say, hey, before you leave, make your little candy bag or grab some candy taste. What can I do with the sense of touch? Now, so I always like to have a bench in my entryway because I love to sit and look out the door when I have my coffee in the morning. So, I put a nice cozy blanket there so that I can have that sense of touch. So just walk your way through and challenge yourself. Okay. What I see. Okay. Oh, flowers. We need something that... So, use those senses and then say, okay, I'm going to incorporate one for each one. And that's a great tool to use to help if you're... Because some folks are like, I don't have, I don't know how to incorporate beauty. That's a way, a tool you can use to help you kind of try to implement it.   And then challenge yourself to only shop your home. Don't go outside the home for it. I did that with my recently with my entryway. I was like getting bored with how it was looking and I was like, ah, okay, Nikki, challenge yourself. How can you totally redecorate your entryway and beautify your entryway without buying the thing? And so, I had in my attic, my old kitchen table and its white kitchen table from my previous home. I said, oh, let me use that. Instead of having a bench in my entryway, I have a center round table now. And it's just a whole different look. I went to my guest and then I was like, okay. And this is the other thing. I was like, oh, I want a different color in here. Well, I was like, hmm, I got yellow in my guest bedroom. So let me shop my guest bedroom and pull a few of those and I can add it into the entryway. I took some books. I took some things and I had a new entryway in no time. So that's a wonderful way to do it. And a lot of times too, if you have a lot of books in your home, take those covers off of your books. You would be surprised how they have beautiful linen and embossed gold and different colors. And that's just such a beautiful way to display, create beauty in your home. It's just kind of looking behind those covers and then displaying your books that way. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (54:24 - 55:03) I'm a book lover. So that speaks to me for sure.   Nikki Boyd: (54:28 - 54:28) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: And so, speaking of books, then I loved your quote on page 15, where you talk about this process of decluttering and organizing that leads to a place where, here's your quote, where life becomes more meaningful and enjoyable and it all starts at home. So, Nikki, we've talked about how to start with our home, but if we consider our whole lifestyle as well, are there any other additional ways to elevate both our function and our delight?   Nikki Boyd: (55:04 - 57:46) Yes. So, when you are living within your home, you want to think about it being your vacation spot. You know, when we go on vacation, we have expectations, right? We want to feel good. We want to relax. We want the nice hotel room. But ideally the thought process should be, we want that at home because that's where we're at most of the time. That's, you know, where we, you know, our family nurturing, we nurture our family, all the things. So, step one is to think about how do you start your day. If you, for me, I can't do the alarm clock. You, you wake up to this banging. That's a stressful way to wake up. So, think about how can I wake myself up and make it on time without it being so stressful? And what I've come up with is I have a clock that is, it's a sunrise clock where it wakes you up slowly with the light. It kind of just eases you into your day like sunlight. And it has been a game changer for that. Even if you don't do that, does your spouse get up before you? Talk with your spouse and say, “Hey, I want to get away from the alarm clock. I know you get up before me. Can you just wake me up by kissing me on my cheek?” Just wake me up with a kiss. That's, you're going to be my alarm clock. Okay. You'll find those creative ways to have a better start to your day.   You know, even that night, my husband and I, we started a while ago where we sleep to inspirational Christian music. And it is a game changer for how you wake up. And it's just listening to that all night, not too loud, just softly on. It just, when you wake up, you are just in a whole different mood, you know? And so that's one simple thing to implement to have a great start to your day. And even playing instrumental worship music all day throughout your house, it changes the atmosphere. It changes the environment, you know? So again, going back to those senses, what do we see? What do we hear? So just your routine is so important. You know, we talk organization but incorporating that routine in our home is so important. You know, even when our kids come home from school, do they run into chaos? We're fussing. No, get that, get that. No, no, no, no. Say it's, no, don't get me wrong. It can be hard as a mom. It can be hard, but we have to, before we walk in the door, talk to ourselves and say, okay, I'm going to set the tone for my children when we come in. We're going to set the tone. And it may be sitting down and laughing before we get into homework and doing the things. And so, but being intentional about creating those routines. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (57:47 - 58:04) So much wisdom packed in. And one other thing that I appreciate about you is the high value that you place on the hospitality. So, will you share all of your best practices and motivations as it relates to hospitality?   Nikki Boyd: (58:05 - 1:01:36) Yes. In fact, I just did this weekend at my, I'm the hospitality coordinator at church. And so, I just did a training with my hospitality team. So, I'm fresh off of this. So it was, we had a blast, but you know, it's hospitality. And I want to say this to anybody, anybody, we all have that ability to do it. And you don't have to have a big, beautiful home. You can live in a cardboard box and have a beautiful time. I've had my most beautiful experiences have been in small apartments where we're all sitting there and we're just having a great time. And that's the best memories. So, it's about, how can I create a beautiful experience for anyone who walks through this door? And so that's what you want to think about when you're trying to create a home that has a beautiful element of hospitality embedded in it.   And so, for me, again, simplicity. One thing I said in the training this weekend is I had a white serving bowl and I said, take two minutes and give me 20 uses for this bowl that does not pertain to food. And so, they thought about all kinds of things. A simple bowl with a little intention can do great things. So, something you have in your home, as simple as it is, it can have the opportunity to serve so many people, can be so hospitable to so many people. So, it's just about using that creativity with the things that we have and also about being present. When people come in our home, you want to be present. It's not about, you know, because I, whenever I'm asked, who do you, what woman in the Bible do you most connect with? And a lot of times I say Martha, because I can tend to be that person. I'm so busy trying to get everything right and doing, I'm missing the point. The point is to be with that person. The point is to sit down and be hospitable and to just create that memory. And so, I always tell people, I'm trying to get away from my Marthism and just really, really, when someone comes over, it's about really sitting down and being with them and creating that memory. And so just have fun with it, you know, and don't feel like, I always tell people, don't feel like you have to have the best or have to have the biggest menu. That's not, that's not what you need.   Now, one thing, a tip that a friend did share with me that is a good tip to share is always have something out small, like a bowl of nuts or a little charcuterie cheese, something on your table, because it's a good tool. If you see people grabbing for it, that means they're hungry. So, then that cues you, let me offer them something to eat. Or let me, you know, so if people are snacking, that means they're hungry. You know, if they're grabbing content, so it's a good little tool to see if you need to kind of just put something else out or offer something else. You know, also having water, just simple things, having water right in your entryway, having on a tray as they walk in. I always like to have a welcome beverage. So, when you come in, if it's winter, having hot chocolate, a craft with some hot chocolate, when people come in, giving them a, you know, a nice welcome gift that tells people that, you know, I'm happy you're here, you know, so just, you know, and be creative. There's so many things that you can do with what you have that can just really make people feel so special.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:37 - 1:01:42) I'm not surprised that you're the hospitality coordinator at your church. That's amazing.   Nikki Boyd: (1:01:43 - 1:01:44) I love it. I love it.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:44 - 1:01:57) And if we want to continue learning from you, can you share the places where we can go to follow you for more inspiration and more about the work that you offer that we could reach out or inquire about?   Nikki Boyd: (1:01:58 - 1:02:28) Yes, yes. I'm At Home with Nikki all online and it's, I spell my name N-I-K-K-I and my website is athomewithnikki.com and then social media and all the places At Home with Nikki is the brand. And I do virtual organizing sessions. So, I work with women all over the world in their homes every week. And so, on my website, you can learn more about that. And yes, I do YouTube over 900 videos of talking about all the stuff. So, you definitely check that out too.   Laura Dugger: (1:02:29 - 1:02:49) That is incredible. We will add links to all of those places in the show notes for today's episode. But Nikki, you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Nikki Boyd: (1:02:50 - 1:03:23) I would say my savvy sauce, and you probably, Nikki, you've been talking about it the whole time, but it's just so, it just so is, is the senses. Like everything I do, I'm always like, how can I engage that? And I'm so thankful to God for that, because it's like, it helps me solve problems all of the time. So, whether I'm planning a meeting, okay, how do I engage their senses? If I'm entertaining, how do I engage their senses? If I'm organizing, okay. So that is my savvy sauce is those senses that God gave me. So, it's the tool that I use all the time.   Laura Dugger: (1:03:24 - 1:03:59) I love it. Even with you using the visual aids today that came alive, but Nikki, you are just an absolute joy. And I wish I lived closer and could come be a guest in your home and learn firsthand from you. And have a cup of coffee around the table. But this has just been a treasured conversation. And so, I just want to say thank you for boldly stepping into this calling that the Lord gave you. You're clearly blessing so many of us through exercising your gifts. So, I just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Nikki Boyd: (1:04:00 - 1:04:02) Oh, thank you for having me. I'm blessed to be here. Thank you.   Laura Dugger: (1:04:02 - 1:07:18) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his o

„Divine Intervention“ klingt wie ein Gebet mitten im Lärm unserer Gegenwart. Der Song ist gut und aktuell, weil er die Spannungen hörbar macht, die viele Menschen kennen: die Sehnsucht nach Heilung und Sinn, die Erfahrung von Angst und Unsicherheit, aber auch den Wunsch, nicht einfach zu resignieren.Theologisch kann „göttliches Eingreifen“ bedeuten: Gott lässt die Welt nicht sich selbst und ihren Krisen. Dieses Eingreifen ist nicht unbedingt ein spektakuläres Wunder, das alle Probleme sofort beseitigt. Es kann auch darin bestehen, dass Menschen sich berühren lassen, dass sie hinschauen, sich einmischen und füreinander Verantwortung übernehmen. Gott greift in die Welt ein, wenn Menschen den Mut finden, Frieden statt Feindbilder zu suchen, Gerechtigkeit statt Gleichgültigkeit einzufordern und Liebe gegen die kalte Logik des Eigennutzes zu setzen. Als negatives Bild dienen hier die Milliardäre, die sich in ihre Bunker im Himmel absetzen.Aber es gibt auch etwas anderes:Mm, when the walls cave inAnd the lights go dimAnd I drag you out again Zwischen „Divine Intervention“ und Street Fighting Man lässt sich eine Haltung des Nicht-Aufgebens hören. Besonders die Zeile „When they try to arrest you, I come to your rescue“ ist ein starkes Bild für Solidarität: Wenn jemand unter Druck gerät, wenn jemand zum Schweigen gebracht oder ausgegrenzt werden soll, dann gehe ich nicht weg. Ich stehe zu dir.Im Song erhält Mick Jagger eine so schreckliche Prognose für seine Zukunft, dass die Wahrsagerin zusammenbricht – und da erinnert sich Mick dann an Street Fighting Man - „What can a poor boy do, except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band?“. 2026 ist die Antwort im Angesicht des Untergangs dieselbe: Er kapituliert nicht vor den Mächtigen, er besorgt sich eine Gitarre und geht lieber „in einem flammenden Inferno unter“ I go to dance in the Flames, yeah – wenn die mir das Leben zur Hölle machen wollen – dann tanze ich in den Flammen – und ich helfe dir - And I drag you out againFoto © Kevin MazurHomepage: https://7tage1song.dePlaylist Podcast und Song: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/20KHRuuW0YqS7ZyHUdlKO4?si=b6ea0b237af041ecInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/7tage1song/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pg/7tage1song/Kontakt: post@7tage1song.deLink zum Song: https://open.spotify.com/intl-de/track/1BqDpIOzTzfJCZZc89lpAe?si=4db6725db78a4199Spotify Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0M5tOXTC0lM8RVycUBQnjy?si=idKC-CFaRp2ZD992gvWvsQ

TODAY'S DAILY SPONSOR: Today’s episode is sponsored by Scott, who is sponsoring today and the next 4 episodes, with gratitude for his 5 year anniversary of being introduced to the MM by his friend Regina.

The boys welcome on Big E, Jared in Wisconsin! We open the show chopping it up about prison life, because obviously we'd know. Then Adam has Jared recap the legendary Wisconsin fishing season, golf season, and talk about opening weekend duck season! The guys get hyped for pheasant season before this week's perfect song. In this week's Meat, Mm!, Big E brings us a school lunch themed game of Smash or Pass before we all list our Mt Rushmore of high school lunches back in the day. Millennials had epic meals! Hut Hut! Love y'all.

In this Margin Notes episode of the #amwriting podcast, host Jennie Nash talks with book coach and author Stuart Wakefield about approaching marketing as a creative project by making joyful “artifacts” that expand a story world rather than simply asking readers to buy a book. Wakefield shares his creative background, a past period when his creative practice stopped, and how he now immerses himself in projects tied to his latest novel, All Hands on Dick, set in 1956 aboard the cruise ship SS Celestial. Stuart describes the book's comedic, queer, mid-century influences and its characters, explains creating items like a 3D-printed ocean liner and a hand-cut 10-inch vinyl record featuring AI-assisted big band songs, and discusses building an animated music video. Nash also previews upcoming episodes with Wakefield on using the Blueprint method to develop a series, as he launches his trilogy A Gay Odysea.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Connect with Stuart* Visit his book coaching site* Read his books* Watch his music videoTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hi, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we're talking about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.I'm here today to talk with Stuart Wakefield about making marketing a creative project. And you've heard from Stuart before. He has coached on the podcast, and we'll link to that episode in the show notes. He also will be in episodes to come, which we'll talk about in a moment, and Stuart is a fascinating individual who's had a long career in all kinds of things, including TV writing, playwriting, a long stint in IT.What? [00:01:00] And, and now Stuart works with me at Author Accelerator, and he runs his own book coaching business at thebookcoach.co. Welcome, Stuart.Stuart: Thank you for having me, Jennie. I'm really excited to talk to you today.Jennie: I'm excited too. This is such a, such a interesting topic. So the reason this came up is that Stuart launched a new book, which he'll tell you about in a moment, which is part of a series, which he'll tell you about in a moment, and I started seeing out on social media just all this really fun content that he was producing.And obviously then I would get to talk to him at work, and I- he just would have so much joy, and then he would say, “Oh, let me show you this other thing.” And when I talk about fun content, I'm talking about, like, music videos, cartoons, animated [00:02:00] little shorts. He wrote a song. He, he's writing a music video. He 3D printed a ship.He printed a vinyl record. I mean, it's bonkers. And so I just wanted to dig into this about what are you doing, and why is it creating so much joy, and what can we learn from it? So that's what we're here to talk about.Stuart: Oh, oh, oh. Right. Okay. So, so in, in my creative practice, I have always enjoyed... You know, I started acting when I was five, um, so I've always been in kind of around the theater, even when my kind of IT career and project management career was all kind of going on.So I've always enjoyed that. I, um, started a, a- A degree in fashion design. Um, after a year at art college, I, you know, carried on acting and then had a break in 2003. Uh, if I'm really honest with you, I had a breakdown and- Yeah ... m- [00:03:00] my creative practice just stopped. And about six years later in 2009, I started writing.And you know, I've always been a creative person, and I've always been a storyteller, and I tend, but I tend to do it in a very short, concise way. So the shortest piece of fiction I've sold was 50 words.Jennie: That's short.Stuart: Right. Okay. So I, um- Have had like a, a side art project. It's called The Queer Historian of Emotional Truths.Um, and there is a website that sits with that, and the idea is that the queer historian has found artifacts, um, and he is curating those and sharing those on the website, and they might be voicemails, they might be found photos, found objects. And when I got my... So I really love that kind of very small to- storytelling, those, those really poignant moments, [00:04:00] as opposed to great big, long stories.Um, I recently s- sold a story to Divine Femins- Feminine Publishing as well, um, which is again, it's cozy sci-fi, but it's very much the small kind of human moments.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And I found that after writing this book, I became so invested in the world that I wanted to do small art projects that kind of lived within that world.So that's where this has come from. I, I don't see it as marketing. I see it as telling those smaller stories within that wider world that really convey the joy that not only have I got from writing that, that work, but I think lives on after the reader closes and reads that last, that last page and then closes the book.Jennie: Well, this is why it's so exciting and inspiring to me, because so often when writers talk about marketing or think about marketing, they're thinking [00:05:00] about, “Buy my book. Buy my book. Buy my book,” and that's not at all where you're coming from. I suspect... Well, with this current project, it's, it's brand new, but I suspect that that's where it's gonna go, right?That it's impossible to imagine sh- that you're gonna share all these creative acts and artifacts and not get people... I was gonna say on board, but that's gonna be like- The, it's a- ItStuart: is set follow... It's set on board a, a ocean liner. Right. So on, on board is great.Jennie: Right? Like the, how could those two things not happen?That, I guess what I'm getting at is I, I often think that the results people want don't usually come from the path that they think is gonna get them there. Right. The results come from doing the work you love, writing the story you want, and in your case, making this a creative project. Do you- Yes ... do you think that's [00:06:00] true?Stuart: Yeah. You know, very much so, and I was discussing this with a marketing book coach, uh, Rebecca Grogan.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: Highly recommend her to any romance writer. So that's beckythebookcoach.com, and, you know, we got talking about creative projects and how much I don't really like marketing. I always thought it was a very British thing not to like marketing, but the more and more US writers I, I meet and fellow coaches, again, you know, marketing can feel like something unsavory.Jennie: RightStuart: And what I really want to do is show people these cool things I've made and invite them very much into the world. Because what I do in any of my creative writing projects, I have objects that represent what I'm writing on my desk. So, um, I have a book that's set in 1907, so I got [00:07:00] artifacts from, from that time.I have a book that's set, well hopefully coming out in a few months, which is, uh, set in Madrid in 1958, and one of the characters works in a print shop. So I have wooden blocks, wooden printing blocks that spell out this character's names. So-Jennie: Oh,Stuart: that'sJennie: so cool.Stuart: So as I switch from project to project, I bring those things and put those onto my desk, and I just find it helps me get into that head space-Jennie: YeahStuart: and that emotional connection.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So because I still have a, a very strong emotional connection to what it is that I've just published, and I know there are two more books coming, I really wanted to sit and kind of immerse myself in that world. And the first object I created was this 3D printed ocean liner, because that has what has been sitting on my desk while I've been writing this first book.Jennie: So when you say you 3D printed it, how did you go about [00:08:00] that?Stuart: Okay, so I-Jennie: Oh, and, and let's just describe, since people can't see it. It's, it's about like eight inches, 10 inches? Uh, yeah, yeah. So- And it's... Is it made of plastic?Stuart: Yeah. So it's 3D printed, uh, so it's kind of a, a resinous kind of plastic that's- Yeahjust melted as it comes through the head. And yeah, so I found, uh, a model online, and then I... My comput- my computer modeling is not great. It's one of the few things that I'd see that I don't really, you know, have a skill at. So I contacted a friend and said, you know, “Can you modify this for me? Um, can you change the name on the side of the ship?”‘Cause the model that was already there, um, had a different name. And yeah, you know, we, we worked on the look and the feel, and then when we were ready, we found someone else to, to actually print it up. So for me, it's just a lovely object, and I know I'm going to be able to take it to book fairs. There's one coming up at the end of September- So I have little [00:09:00] wooden life rings, we have ship's rope, I have a reception bell.Um, so all of these artifacts, again, when s- if somebody comes to my stand at the book fair, they will be walking into the world of the SS Celestial.Jennie: That's so fun. Okay, so let's, let's talk about the, this, the ship and what happens on the ship and the story and the whole thing, ‘cause it's just too much fun.So it's, um, set in 1956 on a cruise ship. The name of the book is called All Hands on Dick, and it is currently out. So why don't you tell us about first All Hands on Dick, and then the series that it, um, begins?Stuart: Okay. So All Hands on Dick follows cruise director Dick Dockery, and Dick is one of those people that puts the passengers' needs before his own.So, and he is very good at his job But on the voyage from New York to Bermuda, [00:10:00] a slightly seedy kind of underground guy with a reputation called Van Valentine boards the ship. And Van very quickly identifies that what Dick is doing, that he's fulfilling everybody's needs but his own. So throughout a...It's very much a comedy of manners. So throughout that and some farcical moments and lots of beautiful sub-stories, um, Dick eventually learns that being needed is not the same as being loved.Jennie: Very, very, uh, profound message in a very fun setting. So some of the other characters, tell us about some of these other characters.Stuart: Okay. So we have, uh, newlyweds, uh, Buck and Kitty Devereaux. And Buck seems very nervous in his marriage, so one of the kind of mysteries is what is Buck hiding? And then eventually we start to learn that actually Kitty might be hiding some- something as well. We have [00:11:00] Aurelia Cashmere, who is a sort of a, a grande dame, I guess.She, she's first class. Um, she has come on board with a secret that she's going to reveal something when they get to Bermuda. We have, uh, Tony's sidekick, uh, Bunny Marlowe. We have a steward who seems to know everything called Tony Two Towels. We have a light-fingered magician called Pip Larkin. Um, and- ThisJennie: is just so great.And you s-Stuart: And then lounge singer... Sorry, then we have a l- a lounge singer called Rex Devereaux. Uh, and he has a on-off affair with his piano player, Joey Lamplight.Jennie: Okay. So you shared with me that, um, you loved The Love Boat, the, the TV show, right? Oh,Stuart: it's one of my... It, it's just fantastic. And I, I tell you what happened, I love the movie An Affair to Remember-Jennie: Mm-hmmStuart: with Deborah Kerr and Cary Grant. [00:12:00] And you know, I was... My mom loved kind of ‘40s, ‘50s movies. So she kind of introduced me to those when I was growing up, ‘cause I was born in the early ‘70s. So you know, sh- I was kind of weaned on, on movies by watching those. And I loved watching The Love Boat, and more recently...I say recently, it's a few years old now, but the movie Down with Love, uh, with Renee Zellweger.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I watched that and it reminded me of the Doris Day, Rock Hudson kind of sex comedies.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So the vision for All Hands on Dick and the series that it fits into, um, very much came from those, those influences, and the love of, of the, all of those things.Jennie: Well, and it has that, and has that feel. So we'll talk about the whole series in a minute, but some of the other things that you made artifacts that you made, uh, well, there was a song and then there was a record, [00:13:00] and then there was a music video. So how much time have you spent making all these things?Stuart: I, I, I think, I think that wh- what, what happened was, I, I, I'd finished the book and I w- I was, I, something had happened.I think, I think an old Drifters song came up on my, um, Irene's, uh, list, and I'd been listening to... We have a, a TV, um, advert that's on in the UK that, uh, has the song, um, Beyond the Sea.Jennie: Oh, sure, sure.Stuart: It's Bobby... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I was, “Oh, okay.” So I knew that Rex, the lounge singer, one of his storylines is that there's a song that he can't sing.Jennie: Oh.Stuart: It is too emotional for him, and he's desperately trying to get his career back on track and, but there's this one song that he just cannot sing, but it's one of the most powerful songs that could potentially bring his [00:14:00] career back. And I'd been thinking about songs and, you know, again, my mom was just a very, very funny wom- woman and, you know, we would make songs up together.And I wrote some jokey lyrics, uh, called, for a big band number sung by Bunny, called Everybody Needs Dick. And, and, you know, uh, you, the lyrics are, are, you know, a bit silly here and there, but, uh, I just had fun with it.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: You know? So none of this was planned. Um, now I know some people are gonna be really anti-AI, and I, I totally get that, but this was for my personal consumption.So I put those lyrics into an, a, an AI and said like, “Can you write a big band, you know, backing track to go with this?” Just as an experiment, and what came out just really took me by surprise. So-Jennie: It's amazing. I mean, it sounds like a fully produced Andrews Sister song.Stuart: Yes, yes. Love The [00:15:00] Andrews Sisters.Yeah. And then I got thinking about Rex's song, and I thought, “What kind of avoidant thing would Rex sing?” So I wrote some lyrics for that and, um, again, put it into the same AI, AI, and it came out with a couple of versions, and one of them immediately made me start to cry. Oh, no. And I thought, “Okay, if I have an emotional connection to this song, then I need to do something with these tracks.”So I'd been kind of living in the world of the SS Celestial, which is the, the ship that the story is set on, and got to thinking about kind of souvenirs and, and would the ship sell souvenirs, and what kind of things might they sell? And I thought, “Okay, if I'm gonna have an object that's all my own, then as my kind of reward for finishing the book,” I thought, “wouldn't it be great to have a vinyl record?”So then I get into researching how much music can you get on, you know, a seven-inch, a 10-inch, [00:16:00] 12-inch record. Settled on a 10-inch record because, um, Rex's song is six minutes. It won't sit on the seven-inch. Then I had to do my research. You know, were 10-inch singles available in the US in the 1950s? Turns out they still were.Um, then I got to designing the record covers and the labels. I found a company in, uh, the, in London who handcraft. So rather than press a record, they hand-cut it.Jennie: Oh,Stuart: wow. Um, found a company to do that. And yeah, you know, a week later I had in my hands a, a, a 10-inch record, and that is just for my personal consumption, but, you know, I will share that on,um, you know,uh, social media. I will play parts of the record on social media. And yeah, that's where I kind of got to in there, and I just wanted to share with people like, “Oh, look, I made this cool thing.”Jennie: Yeah, yeah.Stuart: And-Jennie: I mean, it's so cool, and [00:17:00] when... We'll share, hopefully, uh, uh, cover a picture of the, um, m- the, uh, record so, in the show notes so people can see.But when, when you share it and talk about it, again, you're just filled with so much joy, like a kid. Yeah. Like, “Look at this.” Yeah. “Look at what I made.” And that has to feel really good, right?Stuart: It, it really, really does. And, and, you know, my family, immediate and wider, are going through some really difficult times at the moment.We started kind of March last year, and, um, I won a, a, a grant from the Arts Council here in the UK to, to really help me kind of zone in on my playwriting.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And a full-length play that I've written is, it's very dark, and it deals with some very dark kind of, uh, themes and issues. And a friend of mine had said to me, she said, “There's something wrong with you.There's, [00:18:00] there's, like, this little light that has gone out.”Jennie: Oh.Stuart: And she said, “I think you should get back to writing comedy.” Um, when I wrote for TV, that was comedy. Um, my last full-length novel, you know, had lots of comedic stuff going on. Um, and she's like, “Why don't you, you consider going back to comedy?”She'd read a lot of my writing when I was doing my master's degree, and she said, “I, I really think you need that, that kind of lift.” So when I was thinking about what to write, I was like, “Okay, I need to do something that, that just really sits with me.” I'm not... You know, writing a novel is a big commitment, and you need to be around people that you kind of really love.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I wanted these people to- So many queer stories I think are written from a place of trauma.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: And I really wanted a group of people who had relatively low stakes threat, but [00:19:00] could really live and breathe in their environment and find joy. And that's exactly as passengers are disembarking at the end of this, this book, that's, you know, there is hope and there is joyJennie: And I imagine that's what you want your reader to feel.Stuart: Um, uh, a- absolutely. I've absolutely written it for people who, you know, to take on a take on a cruise- Right ... or read on the beach. And, you know, I think it's fair to say that, you know, politically and, um, literally the world is on fire, right?Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: Yeah. You know, we're seeing huge fires all over, you know, we're seeing political, just appalling political stuff.And I, and I just thought I, I need this story and I need these people, and I think other people out there need just some fun and some joy and some lightness.Jennie: So tell me about, um, right before we r- started [00:20:00] recording, you said you were almost finished with the music video. Tell me about that.Stuart: Right. Okay. So, uh, Everybody Needs Dick is a huge, joyous, big band number, and I was creating a little short animation to go on, um, social media, and also I wanted the challenge of learning something new from an IT point of view.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: And it kind of grew, ‘cause I was putting some music to the, the reel on Inst- on Instagram, and I just thought, “Hmm, this could... Like, I really like the results of what I've been able to animate here. Like, maybe this could be something bigger.” And I used to work for Turner Broadcasting Systems, which is now, like, part of Warner Brothers Discovery.Was there for about three years working mainly on the Cartoon network side, and I did some work with the animators of The Amazing World of Gumball, which is a very [00:21:00] popular show, um, in the US, and I kind of thought, like, maybe there's something in this. Maybe I could put all of the Everybody Needs Dick story into, like, an MGM musical number.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And like, so again, it, it captures the look and the feel and the tone of the joy of the book as well. So I'm 40 seconds away from finishing. It takes about an hour to get 14 kind of decent seconds. And I... But I'm, I'm exhausted, but what's keeping me going is watching it over and over again and feeling emotional, feeling that emotional connection to the relationships that are developing, even just through the video i- itself.Jennie: Right. AndStuart: what- So again, for me, it's just immersive.Jennie: What, um... When you approach Something like that, and you, you know, obviously we're all, uh, learning, if any of us listening use AI for [00:22:00] various things, we're all learning as we go d- because it's so new. How do you approach the technology side of it? Like, in addition to the creative part, you have to figure things out, right?Figure out how to do it.Stuart: Yeah. I mean, you know, I spend a lot of time engineering prompts for all different sorts of things. So for my own writing, um, I have a prompt that runs through my chapters and looks at all of the nasty habits that I have.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I was talking to another coach the other day, and I was like, “Let me, let me just do a quick word count.”And that search, that, um, AI prompt, is 9,510 words.Jennie: Wow.Stuart: So I might have spent a long time working on that, that prompt, but it really helps me sit back, look at my chapters, really understand what's working and what's not working, and then from my past mistakes and patterns of writing, it helps me see those and that I've fallen back into to some of those [00:23:00] habits.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So, you know, I, I like to think I'm relatively good. Um, but again, some of the graphics that I was using on Instagram were... They were by real people.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I thought, “Well, that's not really the kind of look I'm after. I'm kind of after that... For the, for the video, I'm after that mid-century American illustrated look that is somewhere between J.C.Leyendecker's illustrations of the sort of ‘20s, and the illustrations that you would expect to see in an American magazine in the mid-'50s.”Outro: Right.Stuart: So I worked and worked and worked, you know, with an AI tool on getting the look right, and then locking that look in. Then I was able to take the images from Instagram and say, “Okay, what would those character models look like if they were in dr- had been drawn in this style?”So again, we worked through those looks, um, you know, how smooth their skin was, what the kind of folds in their clothes should look like. [00:24:00] You know, we did a lot of work on that, and then it was really down to the things that I kind of learned at Warner Brothers and watching the extras on DVDs about storyboarding, um, the animations, and then really teaching myself the best way to use, um, the AI that I was using to get the best kind of effects out of it.And I- So it sound- You know... Hmm.Jennie: It, it sort of sounds like play.Stuart: It is. It really is. And I, you know, I, I love learning. I loved learning to be a book coach. I'm always doing some kind of course, whether it be creative or, you know, to do with writing. And, you know, I like a challenge, and teaching- Yeah ... me this new technology, I mean, I'm 54, and, you know, there's always that risk that the kids are gonna com- going to kind of overtake you.Jennie: Sure. Uh,Stuart: but I'm very curious about the world. You know, I l- I like my K-pop. I'm very excited today ‘cause Hatsize, you know, new EP is out. Um, I've had many a conversation with a 13-year-old who's just shocked that I know anything about K-pop- ... [00:25:00] let alone I'm kind of into different bands. So, you know, I'm interested in, in pop culture and learning new technologies and, you know, it has been a huge, huge challenge for me to do this.But again, it's playing in this world, and I've also noticed as I'm doing these other creative projects, because I'm still mentally in the world, some of the stories for the later books are, are coming to me.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about the series. At what point did you decide that All Hands on Dick was going to be a series?Stuart: Pretty much from the beginning. I-Jennie: Okay ...Stuart: I, I... So the series is called A Gay Odyssey, and that's- AndJennie: it's, I have to spell it. It's- Yeah ... O-D-Y-S-E-A.Stuart: Yes. So it- it's A Gay Odyssey, and I call it, like, a naughty cal adventure. So- So, you know, I, I very much saw this as the ship as a [00:26:00] container.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: Okay? Quite literally.Right. But also like a story engine.Jennie: Right.Stuart: So I thought this is, this is a world in miniature, and I wanted to have one overarching love story that covers all three books. But like The Love Boat, I wanted that episodic nature to it as well, because I knew I wanted to bring in different characters and different crew.So A Gay Odyssey is, it's a trilogy of mid-century American queer romantic novels that also examine, uh, the life we live as performance as well as the life we live in private.Jennie: Mm-hmm. So that's where the, the lounge singer and the piano player, the literal- Yeah ... performers and the magician, as well as the just regular people who are performing different roles and things.Ab-Stuart: a- absolutely. You know, Buck is, is performing kind of the dutiful husband, and that's clearly not what's going [00:27:00] under, on under the surface. And, you know, Kitty is very much wanting to go out, you know, understand what's w- I want to say in quotes, “wrong with him.”Jennie: Right.Stuart: And yet Kitty starts to believe that actually she might not entirely be the person she thinks she is.So again, it's, some of it's around self-discovery, um, and some of it is just how you move in the world when the world is telling you you shouldn't be who you are. I mean, it's coming off the back of the Lavender Scare- Mm-hmm ... in the US, um, that Eisenhower signed in 1953 where queerJennie: people-Stuart: I'm not familiar withJennie: that.Stuart: Oh, okay. So I think it was Order 105410or s- or, or something. But Eisenhower signed it, signed it in 1953, and it basically meant that nobody, no gay man or lesbian could work in a federal job.Jennie: Oh, I, I was not aware of that.Stuart: So, you know, thousands and thousands of people were put [00:28:00] out of employment in the US. Wow. So it's coming off the back of that Lavender Scare, um, and it was very much treated like they were a security risk.Jennie: Wow. Um, I'm not gonna get really deep into the series because you and I are gonna do a deep dive on, uh, series development. Um, and for our listeners, Stuart is obviously, um, I would say one of the world's foremost experts on my blueprint method. H- how's that for a title?Stuart: That's very kind of you.Jennie: Um, he teaches it, he coaches it, he holds the high bar for certification that we have at Author Accelerator around the blueprint and other things.But one of the things that he has really done is, is to do a very deep dive on understanding how to use the blueprint [00:29:00] to develop a series, and how you think about one book, how you think about the whole series, the, the order of things, the, the way this tool can be used in this way, and his work on this is, uh, blew me away truly.So I've asked Stuart to come back onto the podcast, and we're going to do a series of two, uh, podcasts, where in one we're gonna talk about the overview of how to use the blueprint to develop a series, and it can be any genre, uh, any- Mm-hmm ... fictional genre, and then we're gonna do a second podcast on ... Now I can't remember what it was, but I think it wasOh, the story engine, and you, and you referenced that with, for your series, the, the ship and, and this container and how to develop a story engine. [00:30:00] And this will also all lead to a special offer to work directly with Stuart on a series, so, um, using the blueprint. So all of that, I'm making all these big promises.I hope they all come true.Stuart: They will. They will.Jennie: Um, all of this is just, uh, laying the groundwork for, for folks who are interested in designing, developing, building a series, and, um, doing it with somebody who has this incredible creative and playful mind, and you can get a sense of the way Stuart thinks and, and works and, um, of the things that he makes.Uh, can you tell us, Stuart, w- if people wanna read All Hands on Deck right now, where can they go? If people wanna find you, and how on earth can they see and hear all this cool stuff you've made? Tell us all the things.Stuart: Okay. [00:31:00] So, uh, in terms of, obviously you can find me at thebookcoach.co. On Instagram, I'm Mr.S Wakefield. Um, so that's where you'll be able to see where I share the cool things that I've made. Um, and then in terms of buying, I mean, all good bookstores. I've already had some, some podcast listeners of mine send me pictures of them holding their, uh, books in, you know, American bookstores, which is fantastic to see.Uh, so yeah, you know, everywhere that you can buy a book. It's not just Amazon, boo, hiss. Um, you know, you should be able to get it in all, all, you know, good, good bookstores.Jennie: Excellent. So, uh, say your, say that Instagram again, just so people can hear.Stuart: Uh, it's Mr. S Wakefield.Jennie: Okay, great. Well, um, we have much more to talk about, and we, and we will be talking about, but this was just so fun to hear your process and this, um, this sense of marketing as a [00:32:00] creative project.And it'll be really fun to follow along and check in with you in our next episodes about where all of this stands as well.Stuart: Great. Thank you.Jennie: Thanks for joining us, Stuart.Stuart: Okay. Take care, Jennie. Bye.Jennie: And for our listeners, thanks for listening. Now let's get back to work and finish what matters mostOutro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:33:00] work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

What does it actually mean to persist in prayer? In episode 505 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their study of Luke 11's "Parable of the Night Friend" — and the answer is far richer than most Christians expect. Rather than teaching a technique for wearing down a reluctant God, Jesus presents a contrasting image: a grudging friend who finally relents out of pure annoyance, set against a Father who overflows with delight to give His people the very best gift imaginable. Through careful exegetical attention to the parable's logic, covenantal structure, and Trinitarian movement, Tony and Jesse show that the ultimate object of persevering prayer is nothing less than the Holy Spirit Himself — the supreme covenant gift of the new covenant age, promised by the Father to the Son, and freely given to all who ask. Key Takeaways The parable operates by contrast, not direct comparison. The annoyed friend is not a picture of God — he is a foil. Everything about God's character is the opposite of this reluctant neighbor, and reading the parable correctly depends on recognizing this reversal. Persistence in prayer is appropriate, not impudent. The word translated "persistence" in verse 8 carries a sense of shameless, boundary-crossing boldness. But unlike the midnight knocker whose asking had become socially inappropriate, our asking of God never crosses a line. There is no point at which we have asked too much. The shift from "friend" to "father" is a deliberate relational and moral intensification. Jesus moves the argument from voluntary friendship (revocable, lateral) to fatherhood (covenantally obligated, vertical), and then from sinful human fathers to the holy divine Father — two axes that together magnify the certainty and character of God's giving. Total depravity and common grace are both present in verse 13. Jesus calls even his disciples "evil," grounding the argument in the doctrine of total depravity, while simultaneously appealing to the nearly universal parental instinct to give good things to children as evidence of common grace operative even in fallen humanity. The ultimate gift is the Holy Spirit, not general blessings. Luke's version of this teaching specifies what Matthew's leaves general: the supreme "good thing" the Father gives is the Holy Spirit Himself. This is not a second-blessing theology, but a call to pray explicitly and persistently for the subjective experience and fresh working of the Spirit already indwelling believers. God's giving is grounded in the Covenant of Redemption. The Father's obligation to give the Spirit to believers is not merely an expression of His general goodness — it flows first from His pretemporal covenant commitment to the Son, to grant Him a people marked, redeemed, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is on full display in Christ's earthly ministry. The Father sending the Holy Spirit is unavoidably Trinitarian language — and Jesus' disciples received it without confusion. The Old Testament had already furnished them with this framework, and the New Testament simply brings it into full light. Key Concepts The Parable Operates by Contrast, Not Direct Comparison One of the most common misreadings of Luke 11 is to identify the sleeping friend with God — as though Jesus is saying, "If you pester God long enough, He will eventually give in." Tony points out that this reading produces a deeply distorted picture of God: an annoyed deity who only answers prayer when sufficiently harassed. The actual logic of the parable is a contrast. The friend is reluctant where God is eager. The friend gives grudgingly where God gives joyfully. The friend is moved by annoyance where God is moved by covenant love. Jesus is not saying, "God is like this friend." He is saying, "Even this friend eventually gave what was needed — how infinitely more will your Father, who is nothing like this friend, give you everything you need?" The parable's force depends entirely on the distance between its human character and the divine reality it points toward. The Ultimate Gift Is the Holy Spirit Himself A comparison of Matthew 7 and Luke 11 reveals something significant. Where Matthew records Jesus promising "good things" to those who ask, Luke specifies: the Holy Spirit. This is not a contradiction — it is Luke's Spirit-guided theological clarification, shaped by his characteristic pneumatological emphasis and his post-Pentecost vantage point. The teaching closes where it must: not with general providential blessings, but with God's own personal presence and power. Tony is careful to distinguish this from two-stage salvation theology. The call to ask for the Holy Spirit is a call for what might be described as the subjective experience of the Spirit — fresh assurance, sanctifying power, gifts for ministry — not a second indwelling. The Christian who already possesses the Spirit objectively is nonetheless invited, even commanded, to ask persistently for His living and active presence. That invitation is itself grounded in covenant promise. God's Giving Is Grounded in the Covenant of Redemption Perhaps the most theologically profound moment in the episode comes when Tony traces God's obligation to give the Spirit beyond the Covenant of Grace and back to the Covenant of Redemption — the pretemporal, intra-Trinitarian covenant in which the Father promised the Son a redeemed people whose redemption would be applied by the Holy Spirit. This means that when believers ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, they are not merely appealing to His general benevolence. They are appealing to a promise the Father made to the Son before the foundation of the world — a promise sealed in the Son's obedient life, atoning death, and glorious resurrection. God's faithfulness in answering prayer for the Spirit is, at its deepest level, an expression of His covenant faithfulness to Christ. That is the ground of Christian boldness in prayer, and it is the ground that never shifts. Memorable Quote God has covenantally bound himself to grant us the Holy Spirit when we ask him... That covenantal obligation first and foremost is not primarily his covenant with us. It is his prior commitment and covenantal obligation to his Son to grant him a people who would be marked by and redeemed and have redemption applied by the Holy Spirit. - Tony Arsenal We could not petition him enough to be annoying to him. There is no boundary for when it is inappropriate to stop asking or seeking or knocking. - Tony Arsenal It doesn't teach a doctrine of prayer as a technique, somehow like wearing down a reluctant God, but a doctrine of prayer as a filial confidence grounded in the Father's revealed character, exercised through this persevering, believing, asking. - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 505 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse  [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast With Ears to Hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:16] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. So I'm excited for this little conversation because I tried to tee all, all of this up for the culmination of this amazing parable, which I, I don't know if you coined it or if it comes from somewhere else or if it's what the Patristics called it- [00:01:32] the parable of the night friends, but I really loved that. Yeah. It sounds like an amazing movie as well, so maybe there's a drama that can unfold. I mean, this is, this is cinematic. And if you're wondering what we're even talking about, you know it. It's the parable in Luke 11, the one where Jesus tells a story about a guy pounding on his neighbor's door at midnight begging for bread because apparently first-century hospitality customs did not include 24/7 7-Eleven. [00:01:58] And so a lot of [00:02:00] us get this one wrong. We hear in this parable words like ask, seek, and knock, and we turn it into some kind of prayer vending machine where if we do the right things or we ask long or hard enough that God will give us exactly what we want. And it turns out the whole parable is about God giving us what we need, the best blessing, the best gift, the thing that is the best in all the world, which is His spirit, and that's what we're gonna talk about on this episode. [00:02:25] So it's all- Yeah ... been set up, loved ones. Now it's time for the good stuff. Tony's here. We're going after it hard. How about that?  [00:02:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it should be good.  [00:02:34] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be, it's gonna be better than good, Tony. It's gonna be, like, amazing. I- I was hoping, like, the, the energy. I, I was just anticipating you were just gonna come in hard with me on that. [00:02:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, I, I wish I had the energy. I mean, we'll, we'll talk about this maybe a little bit in denials. It's just been a, it's been a long day.  [00:02:53] Jesse Schwamb: Well, speaking of-  [00:02:54] Tony Arsenal: But it's good. It's good ... speaking- I'm excited.  [00:02:57] Jesse Schwamb: I, I felt like you were just like that was, [00:03:00] like, your pretty excitement for me and you were like, "All right. [00:03:02] Move us along." Yeah. "Enough of this stuff." I get it. No, no. I, I'm totally down with that.  [00:03:06] Tony Arsenal: It's good.  [00:03:06] Jesse Schwamb: Honestly, that's as good a set of a segue as any. It is time before we get to the, the full excitement, we'll war- we'll both warm up a bit.  [00:03:14] Affirmations And Denials Segment [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: Let's take us to that segment where we take a page from the Reformed tradition of writing confessions, except these are ones that nobody asked for. [00:03:21] It's that time where we affirm with something that we really like or we deny against something that we don't like so much. So I can only wonder now, given that little preamble, that just short little nugget that you dropped there, I am really curious, more than ever, are you denying against something or are you actually affirming with something else? [00:03:40] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna cheat a little bit and go back, go old school and do an affirmation and a denial.  [00:03:44] Tony Denies Sleep And Twitter Bait [00:03:44] Tony Arsenal: So- Oh, okay ... I guess my denial is just sleep deprivation. It's, it's just been, for whatever reason, it's been a couple nights in a row of, of sort of disruptive sleep with the kids and the dog. And this time of year in New Hampshire, the, the nights start to get a little bit chilly, which is, is great. [00:04:01] Um, but you start to get rodents and other animals moving around and- When you live in the, the kind of house that I do, there's a large crawl space underneath, so even if, even if the animals aren't making their way into the house itself, they move around under the, the house. And so when you have a terrier that has been bred over many generations to hunt those kinds of animals, uh, when they start hearing them moving around under the floors, they don't, they don't stay quiet about it. [00:04:27] So denying sleep deprivation. We've talked a lot about how important sleep is, and how it's a blessing from God, and it's a way to show that we're not in charge, and we're not necessary, that God's, you know, God's plan and God's world keeps spinning even when our brains are shut off for the night. So I'm denying sleep deprivation. [00:04:45] My affirmation, uh, actually it's a denial too. It's two denials. It's a double denial. Uh, my denial, I guess what I'm gonna call it is I'm, I'm denying taking the bait. So there's, there's been a, a rather high-profile, uh, [00:05:00]Christian figure that I honestly was not super familiar with. I don't need to get into the specifics, but I was not super familiar with, and when I was silly enough to ask the question online as to like why is everybody even paying attention to this person who has no theology training and is clearly not articulating things in a reasonable way? [00:05:17] The answer was like, "Well, he has 4.5 million followers." I was like, "Oh. O- okay." Uh, where I'm denying taking the bait is that this is a person who's been railing against Reformed theology, Calvinism, uh, for a, like a week now probably, week and a half. Uh, total straw man arguments, just totally misrepresenting things, not a good faith engagement effort, not really trying to understand the position they're critiquing. [00:05:41] Just sort of like painting really broad, inaccurate strokes and then s- sort of congratulating himself when he knocks down that straw man. And where I'm denying taking the bait is that in the same breath as me saying like, "Why are we bothering to engage this person?" Uh, I engaged the person. And, uh, you know, like it [00:06:00] just turns into what you, what it turns into. [00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:06:02] Tony Arsenal: It turns into both parties kind of screaming into the void and just feeling like the other person's not listening, and I don't have time for that. So, uh, I've, I've come up with a new policy for myself on Twitter. If someone is clearly not a good faith actor, uh, then I'm just gonna block them, and then I don't have to worry about it anymore. [00:06:18] Good  [00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: for you.  [00:06:18] Tony Arsenal: Um, so there's plenty of people who wanna have good conversations, who are interested in dialogue, critical or otherwise, uh- [00:06:41] -fashion. Um, first of all, we should always be asking like, "Am I even the person that should be responding?" But i- if you, in God's providence and in wisdom and Christian prudence decide that you are, uh, then, you know, like is this a person worth responding to? Is Twitter the place to respond or, or is it a longer [00:07:00] format or something like that the best, um, best option? [00:07:03] So I'm denying taking the bait. It's like that, uh, like that GIF, like that's bait, and then I total- I totally took it. I totally took it, wasted a bunch of my time. Uh, and I used to think like, "Well, there's people watching, and they're reading what I'm..." But like nobody's reading what I'm saying. Nope, nobody  [00:07:17] Jesse Schwamb: cares. [00:07:17] Tony Arsenal: Nobody cares. Yeah. It's just a bunch of voices online. So there's ways to have influence and, and there are certainly people that have influence through Twitter, and I've had some really good conversations, and I think there is some value at times to engaging in that, uh, that media. But, uh, this was not one of them, so I'm denying taking the bait. [00:07:35] Jesse Schwamb: Would you look at us? I mean, would you look at us? How, how far God has brought us. Yes. I, I just wanna commend you for bringing that up and just kinda laying that all out in transparency. I, bully for you. I think that's right on. There's a... Everybody listen to that again, 'cause there was a lot of good stuff in that short little denial. [00:07:52] Very good.  [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Jesse? What do you got for us tonight?  [00:07:57] Jesse Schwamb: I'm in that place now where, remember you and I [00:08:00] said we should create a list of our affirmations, Niles? I think you have been more faithful in that, uh, honestly, than I have. I, I have- ... coveted your, your faithfulness in doing that. So then I did it, and now I can't remember. [00:08:10] I'm not crossing them off, so now I can't remember if I've actually- ... given this. So everybody please have mercy on me if I've already said this before. I don't think I have, because, you know, I'm just burying a lead that doesn't need to be buried.  [00:08:23] Jesse Affirms Invictus EP [00:08:23] Jesse Schwamb: But I've got a affirmation, and it's more music, and it'll hur- hit a certain group I'm sure. [00:08:29] But I'm affirming with a band called Invictus. They have a new EP that's out this year. It's called Sealed and Sent, and I'll just give you... I, I don't, I'm not trying to make light of this, but, like, I'm not gonna tell you what the music... I mean, I have a pedigree I'm sure in history here. But let me just give you, there's six tracks. [00:08:46] I'm just gonna give you the names of the tracks. Maybe you might guess the style of music from these tracks. Um, it starts with Crush the Snake, then goes on to Heaven's Weapon, Hymn for the Fallen, which is acoustic, Retribution, Drive Them Out, and I Won't [00:09:00] Break. This is a great album. It is, I'm gonna go with their definition of their own sound. [00:09:04] They're a cinematic Christian metal project blending crushing riffs, melodic metalcore, and scripture-inspired themes of spiritual warfare, redemption, perseverance, and victory through Christ. Here's the thing. All of that's true, and you might say, as I did when I first came across them, "Uh, sounds a little cheesy. [00:09:22] Sounds a little kitsch." Turns out it's just awesome. And sometimes, like, you need this kind of music that's so spiritually rich in victory with Christ, that is so expressive of... 'Cause there is, as you heard, like a tint there toward the supernatural realm, toward the battles that are in that realm. But I, sometimes you need that. [00:09:43] This is fantastic. The only word of warning I have is that, so if you're not into that style, and there is, like, beautiful, it's very melodic. There's a lot of beautiful melodies in this. A lot of, like, the voices are really truly fantastic. So it's worth listening to for just for that But my warning is, um, [00:10:00] kind of strange. [00:10:01] This track three, it's acoustic, it's Hymn for the Fallen, is, uh, exactly what it is. It's almost like an anthem for those, uh, condemned to hell, and it is troublingly haunting. Uh, I think it's, like, exactly theologically precise, and it's beautiful in its own right. It's a strange song to listen to because it is beautiful in its expression. [00:10:22] The music is phenomenal, and again, the voice work from this, this single artist is incredible. His range is fantastic. I think it'll leave you at parts just almost breathless. And yet what they're singing about is not quite a celebration, but it is like a song of mourning. And every, uh, time I listen to it, and I wanna listen to it, and yet when you're done with it, you do feel this different sense and urgency for those around you. [00:10:46] So that's my only warning is it's a really complex little EP, but it's strong, and it's beautiful, and it's glorious, and it's a little bit haunting, and it's certainly convicting and challenging. So it turns out, I guess I do like... I [00:11:00]just love the word cinematic. Like, I'm not sure entirely all that it entails, but I think it's probably an, an accurate description. [00:11:07] So if you're looking for some new music or some different music, I highly recommend Invictus because I think you'll be blessed by them  [00:11:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. My, um, my musical, uh, I don't know, repertoire consists mostly of, like, kids worship bop music. Uh, so, uh, maybe I'll, maybe I'll put that on the next time I'm in the car by myself just to listen to some sort of, like- [00:11:34] I don't know, like grown-up music. 'Cause, 'cause I don't listen to a lot of grown-up music as it is now. I, if, if I'm lucky, I get a couple, uh, couple minutes on the bus or something like that to listen to some real, real adult music. But yeah, I'll, I'll have to check it out, and there's always a chance that this will be the screaming music or the heavy music that I like. [00:11:55] There's always a chance.  [00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's more, it's more heavy than maybe screaming. There is a [00:12:00] little bit of that good rasp, but it brings me back to, you and I are of a certain age. I'm, I'm older than you, but I think back to, like, maybe that late '90s, early 2000s, kinda like Creed style. Mm. Like, almost like that, but a little bit deeper and richer and, and a little bit harder. [00:12:16] But it's, it's not, I think, so dissonant that the average ear wouldn't find great value in it. And again, that- Yeah ... third track, which is acoustic, is very beautiful in its own right. It's just a very strange song. Usually you don't hear a song like that, and it really caught me by surprise. And the more I listen to it, the more it does create some kind of mourning within you, and I've thought about it quite a bit, even as I interact with people around me, thinking about the essential emergency of what it means that souls are, are in play here, so to speak. [00:12:44] That, of course, they're all under the providence of God, but He used us as a means in which to preach that gospel message, and we ought to be about that gospel message. And I suppose- Yeah ... in point, that started the podcast as we talked about the gospel and became excited every time we spoke about the [00:13:00] gospel, and then it's, it flowed into this whole series we're doing on the parables. [00:13:04] Back To Luke 11 Reading [00:13:04] Jesse Schwamb: And now, of course, we find it again in Luke chapter 11 here And I was excited to speak with you because I tried to set up for everybody, ourselves included, just like all of the little prolegomena, all the, all the kinda like little fine, fun details of like the circumstance and the interaction that's happening in this parable. [00:13:23] But really the punchline comes in this, I would say, unexpected twist that one, we have this friend going to another, and the friend is reluctant when he really shouldn't be, and there's this incredible juxtaposition of, well, how much more so is God going to be less reluctant because He's our Father, and He delights to give us that which is good, the best of gifts. [00:13:43] And this sometimes gets turned around in that we ought to just really continually annoy God to the extent that He just gives us the very thing, and that somehow this is explained to us that we have to have enough perseverance, hope against hope, to continue to pray against all odds. And instead what we find [00:14:00] buried in this parable is something far better than that. [00:14:02] Actually, the gift that God gives us is something that we really could not conceive of apart from the gospel itself. So I'm gonna take us back- Yeah ... into Luke chapter 11. I'm gonna read the whole passage or the parable that we were just talking about, started it last week. But we're really gonna pick it up in this, so everybody can be listening, at this turning point where Jesus begins to speak about the role of the Father and what He desires to give us. [00:14:27] So this is Luke chapter 11, beginning verse one. "And it happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of the disciples said to Him, 'Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.' And He said to them, 'When you pray, say, "Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. [00:14:45] Give us each our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation."' Then He said to them, 'Which of you has a friend and will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me [00:15:00] three loaves for a friend has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.' [00:15:05] And from the inside he answers, 'Do not bother me. The door has already been shut, and my children and I are in bed. I cannot rise up and give you anything.' I tell you, even though he will not rise up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence, he will get up and give him as much as we needs. [00:15:23] So I say to you, ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. For everyone who receives asks, and he who, he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks will be opened. But what father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead of a fish? Or if his son asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? [00:15:45] If then you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give you the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?'"  [00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:15:59] Tony Unpacks The Parable Logic [00:15:59] Tony Arsenal: This is, um, one of those passages that I think... I think you're exactly right. We, we sort of fall into a very specific way of thinking because for some good reasons, right? [00:16:13] Like, this is a parable about prayer. It's couched, y- you know, it's, it's sort of sandwiched in different parts tea- teaching about prayer. And so I think we, we instinctively, kinda like we saw with the Parable of the Good Samaritan, we kind of instinctively assume who certain characters in the, in the analogy here are, right? [00:16:34] Sure. Just like in the, the Parable of the Good Samaritan, we kind of assume that, like, the neighbor that is being talked about is the guy who got beat up and left for dead, but in, in the s- the punchline, we find out it's actually the Samaritan. In this case, I think we assume the person who is being, um, who is being e- entreated upon must represent God, and the person who is doing the entreating, uh, is, you know, is us.[00:17:00] [00:17:00] And I'm not sure that the parable, a- and again, like, what even is a parable? Some people would say, "Well, this isn't a parable," but w- we're really just talking about kind of like the figures of speech ministry of Christ, the figures of the sayings of Jesus that sort of circulate around these analogies. Um, w- what even is a parable? [00:17:19] And in this case, like- We need to be careful not to just make those assumptions without-  [00:17:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right ...  [00:17:26] Tony Arsenal: justifying them in the text because it'll lead us to the wrong conclusion. Like, like you've said, like if we assume that the person in the text, in the, the, the parable here who is being entreated upon represents God the Father, well, what we've done now is we've made God sort of like this annoying or this annoyed figure who doesn't really wanna answer our prayers, but because we harass him so much, because we're so persistent. [00:17:51] Another translation of that word is impudence, right? It's a word that has to do with, like, almost like a shameless begging. Like, [00:18:00] it's, it's someone who is asking something that goes beyond the boundaries of appropriate.  [00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: Right? It's, it's impudence, it's persistence, but it's not just persistence in that, like, it's not just stick-to-it-iveness. [00:18:12] It's like persistence to the point of being, uh, inappropriate is really what this word is getting at. Well, now what we've done is we've made it so we have to inappropriately pursue God for prayer. Right. So I'm, I'm glad you set it up this way to sort of say, like, we need to think about this parable. Yes, there's something here about prayer, for sure. [00:18:29] There's more here about the fact that God desires to give us good gifts, but we really need to understand how it is that this teaching is functioning in almost like a, a, almost like a contrasting example kind of way compared to, like, a direct example. It, it's, it's not, it's not exactly an argument to the lesser, from the lesser to the greater. [00:18:51] I mean, it kind of is.  [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:18:52] Tony Arsenal: But it's, it's almost like a reverse argument from the lesser to the greater. Like, there's this lesser that's so much lesser that he's actually [00:19:00] sort of- Yes ... like an annoying, like not a super admirable, noble figure. Then how much more noble is God? It's kind of the, the sort of the force of this parable, the force of this teaching. [00:19:09] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. I like how you said that. It was... You crystallized something I've been thinking about, which was, it's almost like in this text, think of, like, these two different shores. On one shore is this function, the action, and the worship of, uh, through prayer. On the other shore is this g- great supreme gift of the Holy Spirit, and there's something about a bridge that's being built between these two things, and it starts with this really interesting analogy. [00:19:34] But then there's, like, this turning point from friend to father, and for me, what, like I mentioned last week, I'm seeing, I'm picking up, maybe too much so, all of this interesting covenantal shadows and language here. And so, like, in this shifting, specifically from this analogy to friend to fa- from friend to father, there's almost in my mind, like, an intensifying of the relational bond. [00:19:56] I mean, friendship being voluntary and revocable, fatherhood, [00:20:00] especially in ancient thought, bound by nature, and then that again, covenant obligation. It does strengthen this interesting logic that's unfolding for us. But it's as if the bridge that's being built here by Jesus is taking and uniting or bringing together this idea of good gifts of the Father, and the greatest gift being the Holy Spirit, and prayer and how that accomplishes or receives or invokes those gifts, and the bridge being the right way in which to think about prayer and the right mode in which to consider prayer so as to ask for the things in the name of Jesus according to God's will, that is the greatest of all gifts, which is the Holy Spirit. [00:20:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:36] Hospitality Context And Midnight Bread [00:20:36] Tony Arsenal: And I, I think it's interesting too because this teaching, this parable opens with y- you know, kind of a s- sort of standard format that Christ use, uses in some of these circumstances, where He's talking to an audience who may or may not be hostile. In some instances it's hostile. In this instance it was a friendly, a friendly audience. [00:20:57] It was His disciples. Um, He says, "Which of [00:21:00] you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say, 'Friend, lend me three loaves. For a friend of mine- Right ... has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.'" This is parallel similar language to, like, which of you having a sheep who falls into a- [00:21:22] not like everybody has experienced it, right? I think I, I've never had, like, livestock, but, like, I know my dog has gotten into stuff. Like, everybody who's had a pet is like, "Yeah, my animal has done something stupid at some point." Like, ate something stupid, got stuck in something, hurt itself. So, like, the, the, the way that this is set up is [00:21:53] Tony Arsenal: In a way where it's like the scenario is sort of insane and nobody would [00:22:00] be in that situation. Um, and then there are times where he says, "Which of you having a friend, which of you having a sheep who falls into a ditch?" [00:22:09] Um, and, and the assumption is on some level either the, it, it's such a common scenario that of course everyone would have understood it, right? Which of you... It's like, it's like a woman losing a coin who sweeps the house to look for the coin. Everybody who has a, a, a valuable piece of money that they lose is gonna spend time looking for it. [00:22:29] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:22:29] Tony Arsenal: This one I think is more like that second one, which feels weird to us. Again, like we're, like you kind of alluded to and kind of joking, but I think is, is a, is a per- serious point, we can just go to the store. Like I could go to a 24-hour supermarket and buy resources if a guest shows up unexpectedly. [00:22:46] It's not like that in the ancient world. So this statement of like, which of you Basically like which of you who has unexpected company show up would not go to your friend or neighbor and ask for something to serve them? And especially in the sort of [00:23:00] hospitality-driven culture that the 1st century was, it would've been deeply, deeply troubling for a guest, especially a, a guest who's coming on a l- from a long journey who's showing up at midnight. [00:23:10] That feels like in our culture we'd be like, "Yeah, it's understandable that I don't have anything on hand." It would be deeply troubling for someone in that scenario to not be able to provide hospitality. So I think that's the first hurdle we have to get over with this one is the scenario feels, at least to me, feels a little bit insane, but I actually think the assumption baked into the teaching is that this is an understandable, relatable situation with an obvious answer. [00:23:36] Of course, all of us would go beg a friend for a few loaves of bread to serve our guest who shows up unexpectedly.  [00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. There is like a foil in all of this. Again, it's not like Jesus is not commending like wear God down with nagging as a technique, but there is a lot at stake here in this scenario that's been set forward because there's, there's honor, there's covenantal honor like I think I [00:24:00] mentioned p- last time. [00:24:00] Again, this is where I'm seeing that there is something to be said for like the petitioner is a little bit shameless here. That is, like he's bold. It's, it's socially inappropriate maybe, the persistence in the knocking, but that's what secures the loaves. And so on this view, verse 8 does teach like persevering bold prayer. [00:24:18] I think then what we're being lead to, try, led to try to understand is well, what kind of bold prayer here? Is it just like any kind of prayer, or is there something specific that Christ himself is directing these people to ask for in prayer? And to me, it, to like, you know, maybe preempt a little bit, it seems like, of course, like he's saying, "Ask for God, of God the only thing that God can give you. [00:24:39] Ask boldly for that thing. Ask shamelessly, unapologetically for that thing," because we're gonna be led again to this kind of reprisal of roles here and see that he's gonna speak about himself again as, as Father, as being this really good father over and against this really reluctant friend who only gets up really because he has been annoyed, and that's certainly the opposite of [00:25:00] God's stance towards us. [00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:25:02] Persistence Without Impudence [00:25:02] Tony Arsenal: And you know, there is, um, you know, like we mentioned, there's this element of- The an- sort of annoyed friend, right? And, and we don't wanna be too quick to compare God directly to the annoyed friend, right? It is this foil. It's kind of like, it's almost like God is not, is like this in some ways, but not like this- Yes [00:25:23] in the most important ways. I actually think the asking itself falls into that category, right? In, in the context of the parable, the asking, m- maybe not the asking, but the persistence, the continuing to pound on the door when the answer no has already been delivered. That is, in the context of this teaching, is, is seen as inappropriate, right? [00:25:45] It's, it's impudent. It's disrespectful. It's, it's an- Right ... unrelenting persistence beyond the bounds of propriety. Not only is God not like the annoying friend, or the annoyed friend, or the annoying friend, I guess, not only is God [00:26:00] not annoyed, uh, so there's this sort of like argument to the, from the lesser to the greater opposite or the greater contrary But our asking itself and our persistence is not impudent. [00:26:13] And I think that's a really key thing here, and that's why it goes directly into the next verse. "Ask and you will g- give it given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock, it will be opened to you." He's not saying because you're so persistent, because you continue to wear God down, it's gonna be given to you. [00:26:29] It's almost like he's saying, like, look, in this context of this parable, not only is the friend, not only did the friend say no, and the, the seeker is seeking inappropriately, and the friend finally, not out of the goodness of his heart, not out of his loyalty to his friend, not out of his desire to serve a stranger, not out of any of those noble things, just because he's annoyed, he finally gives in. [00:26:51] Well, not only is that not what God is like, but your prayers are not like the persistent, annoying friend who won't give up when the answer is no. Right. [00:27:00] Your, your prayers are appropriate insofar as you persist. As you continue to persist, they are appropriate. And, you know, we could get into all of the Greek details about the, the participles and all of this stuff about it's, it's not just ask at one point. [00:27:15] It's, it's continue asking, it'll be given to you. Yes. Continue knocking, it'll be given to you. Like, we can, we can go into all that, and I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit. But the reality is the sort of like durable nature of prayer, the like ongoing, persistent nature of prayer here is not established by those participles. [00:27:32] It's established by the comparison to this inappropriate asking, this inappropriate persistence in the parable, but it's not inappropriate. And I think that's, again, like that's another sort of argument from the lesser to the greater contrary. I don't know if that's actually a term or if I invented that, but that seems like what's going on here. [00:27:49] There's this sort of like minimum situation, and then you flip it over a little bit and, and make it bigger, and that's what we're getting at here. It's, it's sort of a strange technique that, [00:28:00] um, again, like is it present in oth- a lot of other teaching? There's obviously like the parable of the widow and the unjust judge that's basically the same situation. [00:28:08] Right. And we're- I'm sure we'll get to that, but like it's the same basic situation. It's, it's this idea that like Christ is presenting this scenario that has this one touch point, and everything else is like flipped over. It's like everything else is sort of opposite day.  [00:28:24] Jesse Schwamb: And that is a little bit different than the stuff that we've covered so far, which is what makes this a little bit exceptional. [00:28:29] There are ones that mirror it, but this technique-  [00:28:31] Tony Arsenal: Right ...  [00:28:31] Jesse Schwamb: is something that we haven't really come across yet, of course, in our conversations.  [00:28:35] Covenantal Frame For Ask Seek Knock [00:28:35] Jesse Schwamb: And I would say, like, good Biblical hermeneutics, like you said, resolves all of that, what you just said, not by, like, weakening the promise, but by locating it within its covenantal frame again. [00:28:46] Yeah. This promise is spoken to disciples who have just been taught to pray, "Your kingdom come, give us, forgive us, lead us not." That is, all of this prayer needs to be conformed to God's revealed will and kingdom priorities. And so what's hard is I [00:29:00] hear this spoken about a lot, this parable, but it always gets cut, like, from the teaching that just preceded it. [00:29:06] Right.  [00:29:06] Why This Contrast [00:29:06] Jesse Schwamb: Like, a- as if, again, they're coming to Jesus saying, "John was really good at providing instruction to his disciples on how to pray, and you being the Son of God, like the ultimate teacher, teach us then. How do we see you pray? We know that you're a man of prayer. We know that you're Son of God. Teach us, instruct us in this way." [00:29:22] W- w- let's get it, as it were, the... These guys are like, "Boys, let's get it from the horse's mouth." And so it's interesting that Jesus gives the instruction, he gives the prayer, he gives some language and a framework, and then he's like, follows it immediately with this teaching. And this teaching, though, like you said, doesn't draw, like, often, like it's orthogonal. [00:29:39] There's no, like, parallel or linear lines here- Right ... so to speak. It's, it's all about creating this weird contrast. And you might ask, "Well, why do it this way?" And so it does beg the question of does that distinction, that almost like cognitive dissonance between these characters, and then again, like the comparison to God, does that draw out in different ways this character of God so that we might actually [00:30:00] see it more clearly in that juxtaposition? [00:30:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:30:03] Midnight Friend Parable [00:30:03] Tony Arsenal: And I think, y- you know, one of the other comparisons that I think's going on here, and, and again, I think this is basically the same teaching as the, the pa- the widow and the unjust judge. Like, she wears him down with her petitioning, and he finally gives her justice. Like, I think a big part of this, the idea here is when we look at this parable, everything in the parable is- uh, understandable and relatable, right? [00:30:28] To some extent. Um, again, we i- in our 21st century modern context, at least in the West here, we don't have a situation where we can't basically just drive to the store and get something, even, even in the middle of the night. I, I don't know m- many people personally who don't have access to some sort of 24-hour supermarket or convenience store, something where they could go and get something to present to a guest who shows up unexpected in the middle of the night. [00:30:57] Um, and even the idea of, like, someone showing up [00:31:00] unexpected in the middle of the night is kind of like, even then, like, what we think of as unexpected is, like, the person calls us and they're like, "Hey, I'm 35 minutes away. I'm gonna be there. Do you have a bed I can use?" What we're talking about here in the 1st century is literally like, I'm asleep, all of a sudden there's a pounding on my door, and my friend has come from a long journey. [00:31:18] There's no advance notice, there's no messenger that came. This is literally just someone who appears out of nowhere in the middle of the night, and so he has to go get something. That is actually a somewhat relatable situation, even to us What I think is interesting, what I, what I really love about these, this parable and the other one I referenced, is when you think about the way that the, the friend, the annoyed friend, the friend who's sleeping and gets woken up, the way he responds is still to provide the need. [00:31:49] But then look at how we are... Look at the language around how God gives us good gifts, right? Right.  [00:31:56] Ask Seek Knock [00:31:56] Tony Arsenal: He's not giving us... It, it's almost like the teaching is God gives us good gifts. We should ask, we should persevere in prayer. If you continue asking, it will be given to you. If you continue knocking, it, it will be opened to you. [00:32:07] If you continue seeking, you will find. Like, that's the, that's the positive teaching of this. But the contrast is not just, yeah, if you continue to be persistent enough, you're gonna get what you ask for. It's, look, God is going to give you what you need and what you ask for. He's going to give that to you joyfully and out of his own abundance and out of his own desire to bless you with good gifts. [00:32:30] Not like this worldly dude who just does it 'cause he's annoyed.  [00:32:34] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:32:34] Tony Arsenal: So it's not just the argument of like, here's a picture of somebody who's persisting in prayer and gets what they want, and like, yeah, we have some language about the guy being annoyed and about inappropriate asking. God's not quite like that. [00:32:47] God Not Annoyed [00:32:47] Tony Arsenal: It's really designed to paint this picture of marveling at the goodness and, and graciousness of, of God in that not only does he grant us what we need, but he does so [00:33:00] joyfully. We could not petition him enough to be annoying to him. There is no boundary for when it is inappropriate to stop asking or seeking or knocking. [00:33:12] That's the real point of this, is not to just compare God to this annoyed friend who finally gives in, but to show us, like, this is what the world looks like. When you ask enough, you might get what you want, but you're going to annoy someone. That's what worldly pr- like, persistence in lateral prayer, if we wanna call it that, just to sort of keep the analogy going, right? [00:33:33] Lateral prayer, lateral petitioning, or lateral whatever. Like, lateral interceding, all of those things, however we wanna phrase it. That is real, and yes, if you do it long enough, you're probably gonna get what you want. You might burn a bridge in the process. You can never burn the bridge to God by being so annoying, because he's saying continue to ask, continue to seek- Right [00:33:55] continue to knock, and it will be given to you. And not only will it be given to you, but it will [00:34:00] be given to you out of the joy and goodness of my heart. That is really the big comparison that's going on here  [00:34:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's something that we just get to see about God's character here. It's grounds this perseverance not in doubt about God's willingness, but in confidence about it. [00:34:15] And that's what's so interesting here is it comes about by seeing this distinction. It is like a great mockery of saying like you're saying this friend who w- should've been a good friend and had all the reason to be reluctant, even though you pers- persevered with him, he relented and gave you that very thing. [00:34:32] Guess who will be the exact opposite of that? Yeah. Is God himself who lavishes love upon you. And so therefore because of that, you come before him and see he's nothing like this friend. And even a friend will do this in the worst of all circumstances. How much more so will God, where he's given you every spiritual blessing in Christ? [00:34:50] From Friend To Father [00:34:50] Jesse Schwamb: And that's, that's where he leads us, and that's why I think then it transitions to this different set of characters or comparisons by speaking about fathers. So in verse [00:35:00] 11, where we find written, "What father among you, if he has sons, asks for a fish will instead of a fish give him a serpent? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?" [00:35:09] And, and I've read that there's some commentators who will draw from these pairs being chosen for maybe, like, their potential visual tactile resemblance. Like, a, an eel-like fish might have resembled a snake, and generally there were, like, these whitish scorpions I, I guess that were common in Galilee that might have resembled an egg. [00:35:26] And perhaps even here there's a little bit of humor in the illustration just to show, like, just the extreme nonsensical nature of this thing. It's, it's- Yeah ... a really cruel bait and switch. It's deliberate. You know, Jesus is appealing certainly to this universally recognized parental instinct as evidence, again, like you're saying, Tony, for a still greater divine instinct which is present, and that's this love of God for us that we can't even imagine. [00:35:49] But we can comprehend by him saying, "Come, ask, seek, knock." And so, so to me, I think we've got these two axes kind of going on here which are really interesting and beautiful. We've got the reluctant friend [00:36:00] to the willing father. That's a kind of, like, I would say again, like, relational intensification. Like, we're firing it up. [00:36:05] Here, we're taking it to the next level. And then because we got... I gotta slip this in because we got a little, a little TD coming in here hot. From the second axis is from, like, the sinful human father to the holy divine Father, which I would say is, like, a moral intensification, and that's made explicit in verse 13. [00:36:24] Total Depravity Common Grace [00:36:24] Jesse Schwamb: And here's the TD. Like, lest anybody doubt this, to me, and I don't want to over-read, but that second axis is of course where Reformed theology's doctrine of total depravity becomes, like, exegetically significant here. Yeah. Because Jesus himself just calls it out in this verse, and that's part of the, the setup that he's gonna bring forward to explain just how loving God is. [00:36:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and it's even, um... It's not only is it total depravity, it's also common grace, right? Yes. Even evil, even evil, wicked people. And again, like, evil is a, is in this instance is sort of a relative term, right? It's, it's, um- [00:37:00] The audience is the disciples, at least primarily the disciples. So it's not like he's talking to, he's talking to unregenerate people, right? [00:37:09] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:37:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, the, the disciples by all realistic assessment, I think, uh, were regenerate w- with the exception of Judas at this point. Um, you know, you could make some arguments that maybe some of them came to faith during the course of his ministry, but, uh, for the most part we should think of the disciples not as like coming to faith and becoming regenerate after Christ is raised. [00:37:31] Like, they're, they're believers, they're followers with the exception of Judas at this point in his ministry, and he's still calling them evil. But even Even an unregenerate father, for the most part. There are exceptions. There are, are, there are those who are so wicked that even their base parental instincts are messed up, right? [00:37:51] And that's reality. It's terribly sad, but that's, that's the vast exception. Even the worst parents in the world still love their [00:38:00] kids and wanna give them good, good gifts. Like, it's just baked into the genetics of wanting to do that. Even that still is, uh, is an act of common grace. But I, I think you're right, too, and actually, as I think about it, too, like, this isn't even just one parable. [00:38:14] Right. This is actually, if we're talking about the first one as a parable, this is actually, like, its own second parable, right? That's which of you, having a friend that shows up in the middle of the night, would not go- Yep ... and then there's, "Now what father among you?" And it's, again, it's that eminently understandable, relatable scenario where either it, it's so common that everyone has dealt with it, or it's so, like, obviously practical that even if you haven't dealt with it, you, you couldn't come to any other conclusion. [00:38:42] Right. What father among you, if your son asks for a fish, would give him a serpent, right? It's one of those, like, who does that? The answer is no- nobody. Right.  [00:38:53] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. Right?  [00:38:53] Tony Arsenal: Who, who asks for an egg and gives a scorpion? Nobody. So we've got these two [00:39:00]scenarios where the assumption is there's a question that has an obvious outcome, and it drives us to this understanding of the, this image of God as the supremely good giver of gifts, father, faithful, gracious provider, who provides not just a good gift, but the ultimate perfect necessary gift. [00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:39:22] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:39:22] How Much More Spirit [00:39:22] Tony Arsenal: And that's where we come to, uh, at the end of verse 13 is how much more, right, there's that argument from... This is truly an argument from the lesser to the greater, like in the purest sense. How much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him? And I think there's all sorts of implications that we can come out of this, right? [00:39:42] Um, there are those, uh, in the Christian world who never ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit. And, and I'm not, um, I wanna be careful here because I'm not a two-stage salvation person. I'm not a second blessing person, right? We get the Holy Spirit as part of our [00:40:00] regeneration. Like, the Holy Spirit indwells us in regeneration and in, in, not in necessarily in regeneration, but when we are united to Christ, we're united to Christ by the, by the Spirit. [00:40:10] Right. And so there's never a point where we can be considered truly saved Christians- Those who are united to Christ, we cannot be united to Christ and not have His Spirit dwelling within us. But there is this element of the subjective experience of the Holy Spirit where we don't ask for the Holy Spirit, right? [00:40:31] Think of, like, Psalm 51, right? "Take not your Holy Spirit from me." David was not saying, uh, "I've lost the Holy Spirit." He was talking about the enjoyment of the presence of the Holy Spirit, the awareness of the gracious, loving presence of the Holy Spirit. That's what he was asking not to have taken away from him, and, and probably also there was elements of, like, anointing and office that were in there. [00:40:52] But there are lots of Christians who have the Holy Spirit in an objective sense- Right ... who don't take time [00:41:00] to ask the Father for the Holy Spirit in the subjective sense. I think that's the final sort of payout of this teaching, is that we need to continue to ask, continue to knock, and continue to seek, not for general gifts. [00:41:16] Yes, there's a general teaching about persevering in prayer for temporal blessings or spiritual protection, all of those things, all of those petitions that we have. Those are good things. It's good to be persistent in those. But the real point of this whole series of teachings here is that we need to persist in prayer to ask the Father for the Holy Spirit. [00:41:36] Like- Right ... full stop. That's the point  [00:41:40] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Wow, you just did a full stop right there. I thought there was gonna be more, but I, I was getting pumped as you were going on No, no.  [00:41:46] Tony Arsenal: It's all you. Full stop.  [00:41:49] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, yeah.  [00:41:50] Luke Versus Matthew [00:41:50] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, the comparison, of course, is not one of degree alongside, like, a single continuum where it's as though God is a better version of a human father, but it's a kind. [00:41:59] I mean, [00:42:00] God's fatherhood is the archetype of which human fatherhood is just this faint, fallen kind of analog. And so by the time you get to this payload, I like that. It's kinda like a nuclear bomb in a way. I mean, it's so theologically loaded here. Because I was just looking up Matthew's parallel passage here, and it reads, th- this is his punchline, "How much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him?" [00:42:26] So it strikes me that Luke, as we've been saying, writing to a largely Gentile audience after Pentecost, and with his kinda characteristic pneumatological emphasis, he emphasizes or specifies that the good things here are the Holy Spirit himself. And so we're gonna read this not as a contradiction between the Gospels, but as Luke's inspired Spirit-guided clarification/specification of what the good gifts ultimately are. [00:42:54] And while they're always pointing toward that even this temporal good gift from the Father is subordinate to and [00:43:00] finds, I guess it's like its telos in the supreme covenantal gift of God's own indwelling presence. That is a bomb. Like, that's incredible. Yeah. And so I like what you're saying here. I think it is a challenge for Christians to think about not just that we shouldn't, of course, go to God with the big and the small things, the concerns of all our lives, the anxieties and the cares which we cast before him. [00:43:20] This is all part and parcel of what real prayer means, what real communion with God is, and speaking with him and listening to his Word, uh, i- in our ear. At the same time, we shouldn't forsake the greater things that we ought to ask God with strong perseverance, knowing that he will give all those things to us. [00:43:38] I think, and you correct me if I'm wrong, I, I'm reading this as- All of this kind of momentum in Christ teaching about the Spirit coming and about where this passage had been placed in the whole kind of grand arc, and I, I think there's, like, all kinds of Ordo Salutis implications in here. But I love a good Ordo Salutis implication, so it's possible [00:44:00] I'm just coming in a little bit too hot. [00:44:01] But I think first it, it anchors this teaching within this broader Lucan narrative, narrative arc toward Pentecost, where the ascended, glorified Christ pours out the Spirit as the chief blessing of the new covenant. And so again, I'm reading this, I'm like, "Covenant, covenant, covenant." Like, only if you're watching this on YouTube can you actually see me do the, the point, like the g- the finger guns- [00:44:24] where really strongly emphasize that point. And so I just see so much covenant in this. I mean, how mu- how much covenant, how much covenant do you see in this, Tony?  [00:44:36] Covenant Obligations [00:44:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I, there, there is also this element, and this goes back to sort of the first parable or the first teaching in this little segment here, um- The friend is obligated in a certain sense. [00:44:48] Like- Yes ... there is, there is a, there's a sense, a real sense I think, and again, this is something I don't think we understand. If, if, um, if I show up at my neighbor's house, my n- I live in a [00:45:00] small community. My neighbor's house is like 25 feet away from me, and if I knocked on his door in the middle of the night and said, "Gus, I need a cup of sugar," he would give it to me with a smile. [00:45:11] But he's not obligated to do that. Right. He has every right, and no one would look sideways at him if he told me to pound sand and go back to bed, right? I think, um, in the 1st century, the answer from this other friend, "No, I'm already in bed," like that actually is sort of a scandalous answer in and of itself. [00:45:29] And so even within that little dynamic, there's covenant implications, right? The a- the continued asking is inappropriate, but it, the continued asking is almost only reasonably necessary because the annoyed friend already broke a social contract. Not quite a covenant- Right ... but we might call it a social contract, where there's an a- there's an assumed position in the 1st century that if someone comes to you asking for hospitality, you give it. [00:45:57] Like there's no exclu- And that's what's [00:46:00] driving this other friend to go talk to him in mid- at midnight in the first place, is I have to provide hospitality. I'm obligated to do so. So I think, yeah, there's all sorts of covenant implications here. And when we're talking about the, the earthly fathers, right? [00:46:14] There's a covenant, um, I'm, I'm careful to use the term covenant. So I'm gonna use it, but I'm not talking, maybe we'll say lowercase C covenant rather than like formal covenants. Right, right. There's a, there's a covenantal, lowercase C [00:46:28] covenantal obligation that fathers have to their children, right? I didn't make a covenant with August and Addie, but I have obligations to them in light of my station and my role related to them, right? And there's an obligation that if they ask me for something that is reasonable and is good for them, that I should give it to them, right? [00:46:46] I'm obligated to provide food, shelter, um, I would say things like education, love, um, you know, attention. Like the things that are necessary for the health and wellbeing of my children, as a father I'm obligated to give that to them. [00:47:00] [00:47:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:47:00] Tony Arsenal: Whether they ask me or not. When they ask me to, right, there are times it's funny. [00:47:05] I, I'll be the first to say, um, I maybe am a little bit on my phone more than I should be, just in general, right? There are times now Addie is old enough where she sees me on her ph- on my phone, and, and sometimes, like, it's fine. They're playing and I'm, I'm doing something on my phone. There are times where she'll come up to me and she'll say, "Daddy phone," and she'll tell me to put my phone down. [00:47:23] I'm obligated to do that. Like, there's a covenantal, lowercase C, covenantal obligation. When she asks me to play with her, if there's not a pressing reason I can't, I should play with her.  [00:47:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:47:33] Tony Arsenal: That is really what we have at play here, and this is, this is what I think is amazing. God has covenantally bound himself to grant us the Holy Spirit when we ask him, right? [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: what I'm  [00:47:43] Jesse Schwamb: saying.  [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: That, and that's, that's, um, that covenantal obligation first and foremost... Man, I didn't even think we were gonna get here. Who would've thought we would've gotten to pretemporal covenant of redemption here just- Would you  [00:47:53] Jesse Schwamb: look at us ...  [00:47:54] Tony Arsenal: uh, look at us.  [00:47:55] Covenant Of Redemption [00:47:55] Tony Arsenal: Um, that covenantal obligation that the Father has to give us the Holy Spirit when we ask is not primarily his covenant with us. [00:48:03] It is, right? It's the covenant of grace, but that only is, is necessary because of his prior commitment and covenantal obligation to his Son to grant him a people who would be marked by and redeemed and have redemption applied by the Holy Spirit. The Father has promised the Son to give the people of the Son the Holy Spirit when they ask. [00:48:26] That's, that's profound in a way that I think, um, really only Reformed theology can fully get at-  [00:48:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right  [00:48:34] Tony Arsenal: on ... is that there is a promise that God the Father made to God the Son to, to send the Holy Spirit to apply the redemption that the Son purchased to his people. That's really what we're getting at here. [00:48:46] I think that's really the, sort of the final outcome of this, is there's this covenantal obligation- That the Father is not just out of His own goodness, of course out of His own goodness- Right,  [00:48:57] Jesse Schwamb: right ...  [00:48:57] Tony Arsenal: but even maybe if it, maybe it's, [00:49:00] hopefully it's not blasphemous to say this, but like even more than just His own goodness is His covenant faithfulness to the promise He's made- Amen [00:49:07] first and foremost to His Son, and then to steal some language from the Westminster Larger Catechism, first and foremost to His Son, but then also to all the elect in Him who are His spiritual seed.  [00:49:17] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. That's right. That's, see that's the good stuff.  [00:49:20] Wrap Up Holy Spirit [00:49:20] Jesse Schwamb: And so what's crazy is then this beautiful wrap-up, which is brings us back to exactly where we started, but we find that we're on another level because the passage closes exactly as it began with this imperative of asking, but now the object of asking has been specified as God's own personal presence and power, not merely material provision. [00:49:41] And so it's everything you just said all wrapped up, and we can ground then like the practice of specifically and explicitly praying for the Spirit's fresh working, which is sanctification, assurance, gifts for ministry, as entirely a biblical form of prayer distinct from, though not opposed to, a prayer for providential [00:50:00] needs. [00:50:00] In other words, I think the disciples started in a place where they were saying, "Teach us to pray so that we might receive that what which we need." And it's almost as if God says, "I will do that and one better for you. Because not only will I just open your eyes to the thing that you need most, but I'm going to instruct you on how to ask for and then receive by way of these covenantal promises, by way of my own character, my faithful precis- provision, both in establishing the promise and then seeing it to fulfillment that you might have the Holy Spirit reside within you." [00:50:33] And that is mind-boggling. We've, we've talked before just what it is to even conceive that God's presence be with us, but then that God's presence it, uh, the Holy Spirit, one of the Trinity, would be residing within us is just inconceivable. Yeah. Even now with the words coming out of my mouth it just sounds wild. [00:50:51] And yet that is what we have to give credit to here is we have to take God at His word. This is the thing that He's, He said to us. His son, His Son Himself has given us this proper [00:51:00] instruction. And I think all, all the other things we talked about, what it means again to seek after gifts for ministry, to serve in our churches and congregations, to have grand assurance, which is the right and the purview and the blessing, the propriety of the Christian to, uh, want to go after sanctification, that all of this strikes me now is part of praying for, to receive the Holy Spirit, a fresh working of the Holy Spirit in that it's not just, it's both like a command and a gift and the greatest priv

Kiera is joined by Dr. Rania Saleh, founder of Oryx Dental Software, a dental practice management platform that will streamline your practice's inner workings. The two talk about the journey of AI from when it first launched in dentistry to now, how AI can work in your practice as an accompaniment (not a replacement), the honest pros and cons of this intelligence, and a ton more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera, and today is an exciting innovative day. I am so excited for our guests that we have on here. Her and I met about three years ago in person, maybe even four. Gosh, I can't even remember. But I remember being in this event in Napa, and we were all hanging out in this lunch area, and there was this amazing woman who was talking about her AI innovative dental platform. And I was so fascinated by it. I went up to her, started asking her questions, and here we are four years later. So I've got Dr. Rania, she is the founder of Oryx Dental Software. And some of you may have heard it. It's a new I remember when we were talking, she's like, it's an AI platform that's gonna like take over and help schedule and a lot of the tasks that offices struggle with. And she's a dentist. And so I loved her for those reasons because not only is she a dentist, so she gets your pain point, but she's also created a software that helps a ton. And she's here to talk about all things innovative AI. And I know so many dentists are just chomping at the bit because. Dr. Rania, you know dentists are about like four, five, six years behind where you were. And so I'm super excited to have you here to talk about AI, talk about how AI is impacting dentistry, talk about how your platform's been able to help and serve. So Dr. Rania, welcome to the show today. How are you? Dr. Rania Saleh (01:10) Very good. Thank you for having me. Kiera (01:13) Course. So I gave a little bit of an intro to you. I don't know if you remember the lunch. I know we had a pre-show of how it was like that was so long ago and things have just upgraded and elevated since then. But give the listeners a little background to how you went from dentist, which I know you are still dentisting, to building this software to being like this AI innovative KOL in the industry. Kind of give us a little background of who you are and how we got to this point today. Dr. Rania Saleh (01:38) Yeah, so I started out as a dentist. and I I was an associate like most of us start. Then I went to the COI Center and I learned like a whole new way of doing dentistry. And at that point, I'm like, I'm gonna open my practice, fee for service, startup. and that happened in the middle of the global financial crisis. everyone thought I was crazy for doing it, but I went ahead with it and my practice started growing. I was doing great. it grew to multiple specialty, multi-location. and I got pregnant with twins and I had to be put on bedrust. Kiera (02:23) Mm-hmm. Dr. Rania Saleh (02:24) And it was a big, big shock for me because I had a lot of systems in my practice and I thought we were doing amazing. And at that point I wasn't practicing that many days. I had multiple associates. my practice started declining when I wasn't there. and this is when I realized that a lot of the systems were just in my head and not everyone was implementing those. and I started thinking, like, how do we get back on track? How do we stop losing? Losing money, losing patients' confidence, getting bad reviews for the first time ever, all of that really hurt me. And this is how Oreg started. Kiera (03:06) I love it. Because I think, Dr. Rania, you can really speak to how a dentist feels, right? How many dentists, I think, as you were saying it. I'm sure they're saying, yes, me too. Like I can empathize. I know I've seen it with all the clients that we work with. Systems aren't systems, right? Standards are not standards. They're what we tolerate. It's what we have as processes. And I remember you saying, like, orgs basically is going to become these offices, office manager for them. And don't worry, office managers, we're not replacing you. We're just enhancing this for you. But I remember I was so fascinated by your innovative way. And so I wanted to talk about what things can AI do from, you know, when your software first started to today, I feel like AI has just taken off, right? I was always curious what would take down like Google, right? Like coming with the internet was something in my lifetime that changed. And I was like, what's gonna be the next piece that is that innovative in our world? And I believe AI is here for that. So I'm just curious, like from what you've seen, those systems you said like they were living in your head. What things have you seen that practices can do from like AI is not a replacement, I think, for clinical decision making. It can be a tool for it. But how are you recommending that we use AI and dental practices that you've seen from software to clinical to front office? What are some of the I wanted to like really just rift with you? This is my selfish side because I'm like, Dr. Rania Saleh (04:18) Yeah. Kiera (04:19) let's chat all things AI. And what are you seeing that are like the pros and the cons? Where can dentists start leaning into this? What are some of the best on the market right now? You're one of the I love you were you're a you're a founding female in the industry and you're very innovative in it. So let's have a good rift on on AI and what you're seeing in that realm. Dr. Rania Saleh (04:38) Yeah, I mean, like AI touches every aspect, and I was so excited when something like this was created. And what was really good is with Oryx, we started with systems. What I said, like a lot of the systems were in my head, and we started like, how do we create a check-in checklist, a checkout checklist? How do we make everyone's life easy? So we made a lot of automations in the system very early on, but these automations still needed a human to intervene to be able to make it work. And with the emergence of AI, we're like, my God, this whole workflow that works perfectly for us can now be automated. So although it was easy to manage, now it's a click of a button and the whole workflow of scheduling patients, having AI receptionists call and and get patients that were not scheduled, like this is a great innovation. getting getting your clinical workflow, having to spend time with the patient. If you have your AI summarizing for you, we talk to our AI, and I always say that way, I want my AI receptionist to be the same as my best assistant. So I want I I don't want to learn a new language to speak to my AI. I want to speak as if I have Jessica or Jennifer or one of my best assistants and I'm just telling them I'm gonna do a crown on this tooth, let's extract this tooth. I see a recession here and it's capturing all of this and charting it. So AI charting is like a game changer because now my assistants could be doing other stuff while I'm doing my charting Perio AI is great. The same for imaging. It's a great tool to help us locate conditions, share our findings with the patients, and patients are just fascinating by that. So I don't see an aspect of the software where it doesn't touch it. Also like on the insurance collection, auto-attaching the narrative, anything that the insurance needs, all of that. is built into the AI system and there's a lot of tools to do that. So I I really think people should try it to see what it's capable of. Some people are a bit scared to dip in there, but I it's a game changer for us. Kiera (07:09) Yeah, so let's talk about let's play devil's advocate. because I think so many people listening are sitting on that side of the fence of like, but we're in clinical. And so how do I know that this is HIPAA compliant? How do I know that this is safe? I think that that's a big, a big concern. And then the other concern is like, well, yes, it can help me attend. How many mistakes does it tend to make? How much more double checking? Because I know there's offices and like insurance verifications. Let's go back a few years. Insurance verification, I feel like insurance verification companies have popped. Left and right. Like I feel like they're daisies in springtime. Like we just have a lot of them. And offices will say, I love it, but it's not accurate. So I don't trust it. And I'm just going to do it myself. So I think it's a twofold one. What are you finding for like AI with HIPAA and us being compliant in that realm? And then part B of that question would be: can I actually trust this and how much error? Like, are we talking 70% error, 80% error? And is it really helping my team or is it something where my team is kind of like, turning a blind eye to it, thinking it's taking care of it, and then we're just getting a lot of mistakes we have to fix first. So first question is like let's talk about hip end compliance and making sure in the medical space that we are we're protected and safe on AI. Dr. Rania Saleh (08:19) Yeah, I I would say like there's a lot of new AI companies every day. It's like a new name and people would tell me, Do you integrate with this? Have you heard of this? And if you don't have a BAA agreement with the company you're working with, then it's not HIPAA compliant. So that's the very, very basic. Before you go with any AI or any company in healthcare, just make sure that it's HIPAA compliant, that it has all the certifications needed to administer AI. And I would say that's the bare minimum to to protect yourself, to protect your practice and to protect your patients. W with the errors, it's like Anything that you do, the AI is not a hundred percent accurate, so you still have to check. But for me, I think if if I'm charting, could my assistant make a mistake and put the crown on number twelve instead of number thirteen? It happens in real life. So there's always that human in the loop where I'm gonna stop, double check, make sure. If it's taking ninety percent of my work, if it creates that summary but there's these two sentences that I don't like, I'm gonna read it. I'm not just signing. blindly progress note. But it's a lot of help. Like for example, when we do our claims, we're doing an automatic attachment. I would say that's a 99% success rate. The systems are great at detecting which radiographs they need to attach. But if you take your radiographs the wrong way, if you're putting a lower molar in the upper molar slot, then that might go wrong to the insurance. But even if you had Mary at the front sending that x-ray and it's in the slot of number three, she will probably send that x-ray. So it's not you you still need. The human to verify, but it's removing a lot of the redundant work. Kiera (10:17) Mm-hmm. Which I think that that's a good call out, right? I think that that's a a smart path to go down. I think it's a yes, but you're not wrong. Like mistakes happen in your day-to-day anyway with humans. Like, let's cut out half of the time. I I was reading up on some AI how it can like go through all your emails and respond to 60 emails in 20 minutes and have it about 80% success rate compared to what a normal human would do. And I thought about this and I was like, wow. 60 emails, 20 minutes, 80% success rate. I think that that's like a risk I'm willing to try because it frees up so much manpower for things that can't be done by AI, like blocking calendars or running interference and other things or talking to patients like right now. Who knows? There will probably be a robot someday that's gonna be. I know I had one office that was doing a robot a few years ago, but I think Dr. Aenia, what do you feel? a lot of practices like Orix is awesome, right? ORX has so many great things. There's a lot of AI in it. But a lot of offices don't want to switch softwares. I feel like switching CPAs and software is probably dentists like two biggest headaches that they just don't want to do. So, what are some tips like that a dentist? Like, what are some of the things you've seen in dentistry of AI that you might bring to the practice if they're not quite ready to do a full conversion of software? And then I do want to talk more of like what ORX can do. And like you've mentioned a few things. But if I am a if I'm a dentist, I do not want to switch my software. I love my dendrics, I love my eagle soft, I love my Open Dental. And I'm like, I'm not changing. It's too much change. We already have all of our systems processes, but I do want to start dipping my toes into AI. What have you found? What are some of the successful things that you've found that you feel like every office should be doing this? And maybe some of the ones you've heard on the market that are some of the top notch. And this is as of today, right? We're gonna timestamp it because things are shifting and changing constantly. So just realize like as of today, this is the best. What would you recommend for that practice? Dr. Rania Saleh (12:08) So I I would say like imaging, period charting, all of that could have a direct impact on the clinical workflow. AI receptionists, some people are not comfortable with that, but like maybe after hours when no one is answering the phone anyway. Don't give your best leads to the AI receptionist. But if you're not gonna answer these calls on the weekend, this would be a great way to start dipping your toe. I think People are shifting more to a comprehensive software like Oryx, and we see it more and more because you need all this data to be interconnected. If you're on EagleSoft or one of the on-prem older software, you have so many point solution and you cannot create that amazing workflow with that. And I feel AI is that tipping point for us as a software company. So maybe five years ago, I used to hear about like, why would I shift to Oryx? Why would I shift to a cloud software? It's not worth all the hassle. I have I have Dentrix and I have like six add-ons that are working so well, and my life is good. Why this disruption? So cloud is not enough of an incentive for people to shift. But now with on the Kiera (13:24) I agree. Dr. Rania Saleh (13:24) cloud features and on the interconnectivity, we're seeing a lot more people moving even from paper charts straight to AI. And it's just Kiera (13:32) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rania Saleh (13:35) amazing. Kiera (13:37) So let's talk about, I know some of the critics of a one software are like when they're I won't say the name of some of the software. People know I don't need to to bring them up. But some of the complaints I've heard from a one-stop shop is, well, I like some of those add-ons that I'm able to put in other softwares because not every software is gonna nail everything 100%, right? So like just because we're really good at maybe we're great at the receptionist and we're great at the clinical, but we're not so good at our rub. Revenue cycle management. So every software is going to have, right? It's like a Toyota car out there. Like I can have really great la longevity and liability. Maybe you don't love the aesthetics of it. And so do you guys have any plug-ons and add-ons? Are there ways that things can integrate in? Because I know a lot of people are scared to switch to these all-in-one platforms. Because if I don't like something about it, there's nothing I can do to incorporate or change or modify, unlike some of the other softwares that are out there on the market. I don't like this, there's a bunch of add-ons that can integrate. And I found like with integrations, integrating into certain cloud-based all-in-one software, there's no integrations that they can have. So I think people are concerned about that. What are your thoughts around that when it comes to the softwares and the platforms and being able to make sure it's again, it's not gonna hit every single thing perfectly. It will do a lot of great things. How do we, how do we circumvent that and feel confident moving forward? Dr. Rania Saleh (14:58) Yeah, look the way we think about it is is it something we want to create? Is it easy to create? Is it gonna give a lot of value to our user? And does it make sense to have it only in Oryx or do we have the add-on? For example, like image annotation. We integrate with Pearl and Overjet. They're the best in the market at annotating x-rays. Kiera (15:18) They are. Dr. Rania Saleh (15:19) We're not gonna redo this work, we're not gonna get into all the certifications. They had to go through. So we have this integration and we always believe in choice. So if someone really loves overjet, they could stay with that. If someone wants Pearl, they could go with Pearl. And that's our approach to think. If it's something very minimal in the early days, people would say, Can you please integrate with this? And we have it for free in our system. We do the integration, then they don't use it. And it's not good for us and it's not good for the vendor. So like membership plans are so easy in Oryx. We never integrate it with anyone because it integrates into directly into the patient's ledger, into the credit card processor. It's a whole system built together that makes a lot more sense being inside of Oryx and a third-party integration does not make sense. So in the areas where it makes sense to integrate with other companies, we do it. In some areas we don't because users are happy with what they have. Kiera (16:21) Got it. No, that's helpful. What would you say are some of the like top things that people would consider in oryx that would make it as a switch for them to move over? Dr. Rania Saleh (16:32) the clinical was always our strongest suit and it's What makes people want to switch because you're able to give the patient a great exam and you're able to have the best relationship with the patient. Our patient report is very detailed. It has the patient's photos, it has a summary of their findings. It's the biggest source of referral for most offices. So a lot of users consider us for our clinical and the patient experience. Kiera (17:03) Got it. And can you break down specifically what are in that clinical? Like I'm looking for like the nitty-gritty. So it's like it helps us with the exam annotation. It helps with charting it, make sure that it sends the follow-ups, that it does the period. Like, what exactly is that? Because I think for a lot of buyers out there and a lot of people looking at AI, I think that they're just like trying to figure out it's like, why? Why should I switch? Like, that sounds great, but like you said, my life is good, my life is easy right now. So, what are some of those things? I feel like AI is the Life that we don't even understand that we're missing, right? Like I can have this great life, but if I don't see that Bora Bora and the four seasons exist, I don't even know that that's something that should be on my radar of a bucket list item. So what are some of those items that might just expand doctor's horizons of like, hey, I never realized that a software could do this, or I never realized that AI could do this. Like, let's do a little teaser sampler for doctors listening today of like. What are the possibilities that maybe they're not even imagining are real that are happening today for other offices? Dr. Rania Saleh (18:04) So like the whole experience starts with the patient booking online or talking to the AI receptionist, getting the scheduler and getting scheduled. And then they get the forms. The forms are extremely engaging, but we also ask Kiera (18:18) Okay, sorry, Dr. Rania. I'm gonna like just interrupt and I'm gonna back it up. So when I'm scheduling online, just clarifying, can they schedule all appointments or is it like new patients and profis? Cause I know in some of the other scheduling online platforms, they could only schedule certain types of procedures. So I'm just curious, like when they're scheduling, can it be all types of appointments or what are kind of the the logistics with that scheduling? And then we're gonna go into paperwork. Cause I'm like, hold on, break it down for me. I need a few more specifics over here. Dr. Rania Saleh (18:42) Yeah. No, it could be anything that the office wants. so if you want to expose all your scheduler, all your days with the online receptionist or with the AI receptionist, you can choose to do that. If you want treatment or not, you can decide what days, what times of the day, what providers are gonna take these online appointments or get appointments with the receptionist. so that part makes it super easy for patients to schedule and then they get an invitation to complete very engaging forms. and with these forms, we're asking a lot of questions, but patients love to complete them because they're like, that's really thorough. Like my doc I want to give my doctor that information. Very rarely someone would complain that the forms are long, but for the most part, people really like saying, Yes, I have I get food packed in here. No one ever asked me this. So we're gathering as much information as we can, and we give a summary to the dentist and also an explanation of what that would mean. So we have the latest evidence embedded into Oryx. someone comes with a rare genetic disease. It already tells them what that means, what you should be careful. Careful of how it could affect their teeth. And patients used to think, my god, my dentist is so smart. I just read it before they get in. And I'm like, you know, that puts you at a higher risk of this or that. And they're like, my doctor never told me this. so it makes the first engagement with the patient amazing because you know so much about them. If someone is Telling you that I have a click in my jaw joint and you're doing the TMJ exam, it's going to remind you. So now you have that extra engagement with the patient saying, You mentioned that you have this click on the right hand side. I cannot feel it right now. Tell me more about it. And that's what's creating that report. So the exam is extremely structured. It takes about seven minutes to complete. At the end of the exam, the patient gets a report showing their findings, their own photos, their own radiographs. So before they commit to a treatment, it's explaining to them like your periostage three. And that's why we want to have this periodontal treatment. We're going to have the scaling, we're going to have the maintenance. And patients understand, and they're not going to Google and saying, asking, like, is SRP a scan? They understand why they need that extra treatment. Kiera (21:20) I see. Okay, so it sounds like we go from being able to schedule online. I do love comprehensive forms that are saying specific things because that's also going to help us TF treatment. And also, like you said, I love making our doctors look incredible. Then when they come back, we're able to explain it, talk to them. And then on the clinical side, from things I've heard and like just repeating back, make sure I didn't miss any of the like features that are smart to be thinking about. I think the periocharding is a big complaint for a lot of hygienists. I have heard that a lot of them don't work super well. So I've heard like a lot of hygienists complain. How does your software or what are some of the softwares you've seen? Like, how do we actually fix that for them? And then also the same thing with doctor side, because I feel like a lot of it is that being able to hear it and being able to translate it into the software correctly. I've heard from a lot of clinicians that that is, it sounds so great, but actually in practicality, it's really hard. Can you speak to that of how you guys have been able to overcome that or softwares you've seen? to make that to where it's like not the annoyance. Like it's I feel like so many people think it's gonna solve their day and they're like, it's just so annoying. It's always broken and it's not working and it did the wrong numbers for me. How does that work for you? Dr. Rania Saleh (22:28) So w we had to train the models and retrain them and train them specifically to dental terminology, to specific numbers, to listen to thousands of hours of recording, and hygienists don't all talk the same way, don't say the teeth numbers the same way. So every few weeks we we come up with a new model that makes it more accurate. and it's not an easy task, it's not easy for us, it's not easy for anyone. We have office. That says, like, you have the best period charting on the market. We love it. It's amazing. It never makes a mistake. And another office that has some issues. And it's like, you have to go figure Kiera (23:08) Darn it. Dr. Rania Saleh (23:09) out is it the microphone? Is it the model? And then we start enhancing, and we realize, some people talk about it this way, and they jump into different directions. And Kiera (23:19) Mm. Dr. Rania Saleh (23:20) that's why it's not catching it. So I think from the very early days of Oryx, we've had a very strong commitment to making the software. The best, and that never changed. From creating the exams with the COIS Center, from putting the latest clinical evidence and committing to updating that evidence yearly. I don't think anyone does this much work. The same thing with any feature that you have, especially on the clinical side, where you commit a lot of dev hours to keep enhancing our features. Kiera (23:57) That's incredible. All right, Dr. Rania, I have like peppered you on so many questions. Thank you. What have I missed? What are things that you feel like, hey, Kiera, the listeners need to know about this, whether it's AI, whether it's platform specific, whether it's just like innovations in dentistry, what's something that I should have asked you that I didn't ask you that you're like, I feel like all dentists, like if I could go and help the the world of dentistry in the best way possible, what would you, what would you tell our listeners or what things do you feel like we need to explore a bit more today as we wrap up? Dr. Rania Saleh (24:26) I think the future is really, really exciting if if some dentists have not explored any of the AI tools that are available on the market, like start with the easiest one. start with having AI write your emails. I I don't think I can write an email anymore. Kiera (24:45) Which one do you use? I'm gonna interject because everyone's like, Great, but what one are you using? Who are you using for emails to write them? Dr. Rania Saleh (24:50) So I use Claude a lot and I also use Gemini. Like if I'm quickly writing an email, I just answer it and just polish and it looks amazing. and Kiera (25:00) Yep. Dr. Rania Saleh (25:01) like for for more deeper conversations, I typically use Claude. So start with like the general models and try it out and then th think how this can impact your life and then how it can impact your practice and then consider a software that is very AI forward. Kiera (25:22) Amazing. And then just break it down for us. I love that because it's like start easy, start with the emails. Gemini or Claude, you guys have it. I think she mentioned two for X-rays. I agree. Pearl and Overjet, two fantastic ones to just help with that clinical diagnosis to kind of just dip your toes into it. I know within our Dental A Team community and in-person masterminds and virtual masterminds, we are always talking about what are the AI innovation tools, what are dentists using right now, who's got the best. And I think like that peer group of being able to ask consistently. Walk us through specifics of like orcs. If I'm curious and I want to like find out more, I'm like, hey, maybe this could be a better software for me. Maybe like it is time for me to like broach it. what can people do to get more information on this Dr. Rania? Dr. Rania Saleh (26:04) Yeah, they can go at OryxDental.com and book a demo. We have an amazing team that would do a consultation with them, see what's right for their practice as a the pro tier, as a the AI tier, the automate tier, and and walk them through all the capabilities of Oryx. Kiera (26:24) I love that. And something I love about you is that you are a dentist. And so I can feel the passion bleed through you of just wanting to to serve dentists to make their life easier, to make the to make the practice and the patient experience. I think all of us could feel that today of like it is that patient experience. We want these patients to have a great and then I love that you're like, and we help the dentist look great and they don't have to do any of the extra work for it. I think that that just speaks volumes to the passion and the the pieces that you bring to the table. So I'm so grateful we were able to hang out, guys. Go. try something. I feel like kind of like offices that didn't want to get into the internet. They didn't want they were like, we'll just stick in the yellow pages. People will find me in the yellow pages. It's been tried and true. I feel like that's kind of like the internet now. And if you're not getting into AI, you're sitting a little bit in those yellow pages. And so let's make sure that we're able to be easier. We're taking advantage of these tools. You don't have to go a hundred percent all in, but I do encourage, I mean how long has Oreg's been in business, Dr. Mania? Let's just like for reference for everybody, how long have you guys been around? Dr. Rania Saleh (27:23) Since twenty sixteen. Kiera (27:25) 2016, so 10 years she's had an AI software working out there. And we're like, AI is brand new, because chat just came out two years ago. no, she's been doing this much, much longer than that. Ten years in the making, 10 years in refinement, 10 years in being able to be there. It's time if you have it. So like book the call with orcs, even if it's just to learn more. get on Claude and Gemini and write emails. I love it. You're like, I don't even write any more emails. But really, Dr. Rania, it was so great to have you. And I just truly appreciate what you're doing for dentistry, your knowledge on AI, the passion you bring to our profession and knowing that we have people like you that jumped into realms to make to make dentistry better and are really spearheading that from a space of true commitment to the dentists that are at hand. So thank you for being here today. Dr. Rania Saleh (28:07) Thank you for having me. Kiera (28:09) Of course. All right, for all of you listening, take the AI challenge, do something. And then I always love a good pen pal, I love a good accountability partner. So email me Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. I'd love to hear what's the AI challenge you took on. What's something? And hey, depending upon how many results we get, we might even be sharing these on social. So be sure to watch there of the best of the best that we're hearing from you as listeners. Reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, thanks for listening. And we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.

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Welcome back to the very special and milestone 300th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. To celebrate this big moment in our company we are reviewing the 2025 pro-shot of Merrily We Roll Along, preserving the 2023 Broadway revival, directed by Maria Friedman, starring Jonathan Groff, Daniel Radcliffe, and Lindsay Mendez. Join CoHT's golden trio (Mackenzie Horner, Jillian Robinson, and Ryan Borochovitz) as these old friends get up close and personal about camera techniques, toxic relationships, and their official rankings of Sondheim's musicals. On behalf of the whole team, we would sincerely like to thank everyone who has helped us get this far, from guests to listeners, and everyone in between. Looking forward (and backwards) to the next hundred!Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAuJillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96 Ryan Borochovitz – Instagram: @ryanborochovitz // NEXT Mag: https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitzFollow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatre If you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 299th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 299th episode we bring you a a new instalment of our subseries 'Screened Plays'. This time we are covering Titus (1999), directed by Julie Taymor, starring Sir Anthony Hopkins as the titular Titus and two-time Academy Award winner Jessica Lange as Tamora, based on William Shakespeare's tragic play Titus Andronicus. Join Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie Horner and his amazing co-panelist the returning Graeme McClelland, as they discuss whether Taymor's unique directorial stylistic choices worked, if the film's violence went too far or if it didn't go far enough, and they dive into the memorable 2011 Stratford Festival production they both saw in their youth.Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAuGraeme McClelland – Instagram: instagraeme999 // Facebook: Graeme McClelland Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatre If you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 298th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 298th episode we bring you a Duet Review of The Pavilion, directed by Chloë Rose Flowers and presented by King Theatre Company and Pine Farms Orchard at Pine Farms Orchard. Join Jillian Robinson and Victoria Wilson as they reminisce about the beauty of the universe, the importance of time, and the realization that sometimes moments just need to officially burn down. The Pavilion is playing at Pine Farms Orchard (2700 16th Sideroad, King City, ON.) from August 11 - August 22, 2026. This review contains SPOILERS. The episode will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [00:15:09] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk.Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiriesto coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com.

Stroke With No Warning Signs: What Tom Ballo Wants Every Survivor to Know Tom Ballo was 65 years old, nine years into a retirement he’d earned across three decades as a telecoms litigator, when a massive hemorrhagic stroke put him on the floor of his own home. There was no dizziness the week before, no slurred word he brushed off, no doctor’s visit he postponed. “It just hit me out of the blue,” he says. “There were no warning signs or anything. No. Very sudden.” His five-year-old granddaughter was the one who found him, ran to get her father, and called 911. That single fact- a stroke with no warning signs is the hardest one for a survivor’s family to sit with, and it’s the reason Tom’s story matters. We’re trained to look for a prodrome: the TIA that precedes the “real” event, the slurred speech, the drooping face, the classic FAST checklist. Those signs save lives when they’re present. But a meaningful share of hemorrhagic strokes, including Tom’s, give no such courtesy. Understanding this isn’t about inducing fear; it’s about removing the false comfort of “I’d definitely see it coming,” which quietly stops people from taking risk factors seriously simply because they feel fine right now. Eighteen Months Later: “I Had Like One Bad Day” What makes Tom an unusual guest isn’t just the suddenness of his stroke — it’s what he says about the recovery. Eighteen months out, he offers a claim that stops most interviewers in their tracks: “Ever since I had the stroke, as far as bad days, I had like one. One bad day, I guess.” For a show built around the long, uneven work of recovery, that’s either the most useful sentence a newly diagnosed survivor will hear all year, or the most worth interrogating. We chose not to resolve that tension neatly, because Tom doesn’t either — and that honesty is more useful to you than a tidy takeaway would be. “Ever since I had the stroke, as far as bad days, I had like one. One bad day, I guess.” — Tom Ballo Part of what underwrites his outlook is a framework he leaned on well before the stroke: self-actualisation, drawn from Abraham Maslow’s 1943 hierarchy of needs. Tom describes himself as someone who had already done the internal work of knowing who he was — a foundation he credits with much of his composure now. It’s worth a caveat here for accuracy: Maslow’s hierarchy is a theory of motivation, not a diagnostic instrument, and there’s no validated test that certifies someone “self-actualised.” What Tom is really describing is a stable sense of identity going into the hardest thing that ever happened to him — and that’s a legitimate, replicable idea, whether or not you use Maslow’s language for it. The Part That Doesn’t Get Easier “One bad day” is not the same as “no hard days,” and the interview doesn’t pretend otherwise. Tom is candid that spasticity the stiffness and involuntary muscle tightness that often follows a hemorrhagic stroke is getting worse, not better, as he moves further from the event. This is a pattern a lot of survivors will recognise, and few outsiders expect: the assumption is that time only heals, when in practice some deficits plateau, some improve, and some, like spasticity, can progress. If you’re eighteen months, three years, five years out and still watching a symptom evolve, Tom’s experience is a useful, unglamorous data point that you are not doing recovery wrong. There’s a quieter data point too, and it cuts the other way: Tom says he hasn’t had a bad night’s sleep since the day of the stroke. For an audience where post-stroke fatigue and insomnia are close to universal, that’s a genuine outlier worth naming precisely because it complicates any single story about what stroke recovery “typically” looks like. What Changed at Home The practical texture of Tom’s recovery runs through his family: the granddaughter who acted fast, the wife who stepped in to run the household during the hardest stretch, the shift from being the one who handled everything to being the one who’s learned, in his words, that “it’s kind of a blessing” to do less. He’s candid that he hasn’t driven since the stroke and says he doesn’t feel a pull to change that. There’s no performance of getting back to “normal” here — just an honest account of a life that reorganised itself around new limits, some of which he’s made peace with and some of which, like the spasticity, he’s still working out how to hold. Why This Story Is Worth Sitting With If you came to this looking for a checklist of warning signs, Tom’s story won’t give you one, and that’s the point. Some strokes, including major hemorrhagic ones, arrive without a warning a person could reasonably have caught. What you can control is what happens after: how quickly the people around you act (his granddaughter didn’t hesitate), how you rebuild a working identity in the aftermath, and how honestly you track what’s actually getting better versus what’s quietly getting harder. Tom’s “one bad day” isn’t a promise you’ll get the same outcome. It’s permission to notice what’s still working, even while something else spasticity, driving, the parts of independence you used to take for granted hasn’t resolved yet. If Tom’s story raises questions about your own recovery, or a loved one’s, that’s exactly the conversation this show exists to have. You can go deeper into the ideas behind post-traumatic growth after stroke in Bill’s book, The Unexpected Way That A Stroke Became The Best Thing That Happened (recoveryafterstroke.com/book), and if this kind of interview is valuable to you, the show runs in part on listener support at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. This blog is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your doctor before making any changes to your health or recovery plan. Stroke With No Warning Signs – Tom Ballo’s One Bad Day in Eighteen Months He had zero warning signs before his stroke at 65. Eighteen months later, Tom Ballo says he’s had exactly one bad day. Highlights: 00:00 Stroke with no warning signs03:25 What kind of stroke was it08:18 Learning to talk and walk again11:42 Does he have aphasia?17:46 One bad day in eighteen months27:15 The symptom that’s getting worse33:20 The one thing that hasn’t changed Transcript: Stroke with no warning signs Tom Ballo (00:00)it just hit me out of the blue. It hit me out of the blue. There were no warning signs or anything. No. very sudden. luckily, my youngest granddaughter was there. My young granddaughter, she was five years old. She was there and I guess she saw me and she went and got her dad, who’s my son-in-law. They were living with us. At the time we had a big house and he told him, she told him and he came down and called 911 right away. Bill Gasiamis (00:39)Welcome back to Recovery After Stroke. I’m Bill Garciamas, and today’s guest is a genuinely different kind of conversation for the show. Tom Ballo spent 32 years as a telecoms litigator, retired at 56 to actually enjoy it, and nine years later, at 65, a massive hemorrhagic stroke hit him with absolutely no warning. His five-year-old granddaughter is the one who found him and got help. What you’re about to hear is a conversation that moves differently than most on this show. Tom takes his time, getting to his words, and there’s a real compassion and openness in the way he talks about what happened to him. No performance, no polish. Just the man being honest about where he’s landed 18 months on. Stay with the pace of it. That pace is part of what he’s telling you. We’re going to get into what he calls one bad day in 18 months, what’s actually gotten harder rather than easier, and what he’s learnt about who he already was before any of this happened. Remember to grab a copy of my book, The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best. thing that happened at recoveryafterstroke.com/book It’s the 10 tools I used to build my own recovery. And a lot of what Tom describes today connects straight back to it. And guys, if this show has helped you, remember you can support the show directly at Patreon by going to patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke and making a small monthly contribution. It helps cover costs of recording, editing and hosting the podcast. Bill Gasiamis (02:16)Tom Ballo, welcome to the podcast. Tom Ballo (02:18)Thank you. Glad to be here. Bill Gasiamis (02:19)Tell me a little bit about what occupied your time before stroke. Tom Ballo (02:24)Well, I retired, retired 10 years ago. So I was well acclimated to that. And I mostly doing, I had a YouTube channel. It it’s called GTA5 and Squirrels. And I said, make recordings of Grand Theft Auto V video game, really interesting videos. And then I got some squirrels that were living next to the house and one of them started was really… friendly. He kept walking up to me and finally started climbing up me and I started feeding him and I was making videos of videos of that. What kind of stroke was it Tom Ballo (03:19)I had over 1500 subscribers and 1 million views. And the whole channel just hit 1 million. Bill Gasiamis (03:30)And y you used to play GTA, Grand Theft Auto. Was it your favourite game? So you’re doing that in your retirement before you retire retired, what were you doing for a living? Tom Ballo (03:40)I was a lawyer for a real, real large telephone company for 32 years. I was a litigator and regulatory law, so it was administrative law, I was, it was just, it was cases, and they were the biggest cases that affected the company. About nine years. Bill Gasiamis (04:06)Yeah. Tom Ballo (04:07)That was one reason I retired early. I retired at age 56 and I just wanted to make sure I had time to enjoy retirement. I didn’t want to work until I died or would have had the stroke when I was working. That’d be different. I had enough time to do a lot of things. for the stroke happen. Bill Gasiamis (04:35)What what was that day like? What what did you notice? Tom Ballo (04:39)nothing, you know, it came out of nowhere. I was playing a video game and about seven o’clock at night and I got up and was getting ready to walk in, go into the other room. I was done and it just hit me out of the blue. It hit me out of the blue. There were no warning signs or anything. No. very sudden. Bill Gasiamis (05:07)What kind of stroke was it? What what was the Tom Ballo (05:09)Is it hemorrhagic? And it was, they say massive, it was a massive one. You know, I pretty much started trying to tip over to my right side. That was the side that started effecting. And I think I made it into the bathroom and over towards the sink. I mean, mean the tub. And that’s the last I remember. luckily, my youngest granddaughter was there. My young granddaughter, she was five years old. She was there and I guess she saw me and she went and got her dad, who’s my son-in-law. They were living with us. At the time we had a big house and he told him, she told him and he came down and called 911 right away. It just hit like a ton of bricks. Bill Gasiamis (06:19)How did you experience it? Was it painful? Was it were you dizzy? What happened? Tom Ballo (06:27)I had about 60 seconds that I was aware of it. It just hit me and I don’t have any pain recollections from it, but… Apparently I hit my head pretty hard, had bruises and all kinds of things. Bill Gasiamis (06:47)Do you have the details about how you ended up in hospital? You they called nine one one. You’re you’re in hospital. Do you have Tom Ballo (06:54)right, heat called. Bill Gasiamis (06:55)any recollection of that? Tom Ballo (06:57)Well, I don’t have any recollection of the ambulance coming or anything about the hospital for about, I don’t know, 10 days. And even then, even my memory then is very, very generic. Like, you know, I knew I was in a hospital. That kind of thing. And then Bill Gasiamis (07:20)Yeah. Tom Ballo (07:21)I don’t have much of a memory of it. The interesting thing, my wife was in Germany. One time she’s gone to Germany or somewhere abroad. marriage and just happened to be there. Luckily, granddaughter, know, had seen me in the bathroom. Bill Gasiamis (07:47)You woke up in hospital and you had some awareness of your deficits. Did you kind of notice that s certain parts of your body weren’t working the way they were prior? Learning to talk and walk again Tom Ballo (07:56)Well, yeah, I mean, it, you know, I don’t know, it’d just be like a car wreck or something. I knew all kinds of things were wrong. my, Half my body was numb, exactly right down the middle from the top of my head to the bottom of my toes, straight down the middle. You know, like over here, could feel everything, right at the halfway point, now it’s, this is all numb. The right side of me. So I knew that I couldn’t, you know, I had… Obviously I had not paralysis, numbness on the whole right side of my body. So I wasn’t able to do much, know, although they kept me in the hospital for six weeks. And, you know, therapy. was inpatient. Bill Gasiamis (09:04)Yeah, because your body was dumb, did that mean you couldn’t walk or use your arm? Tom Ballo (09:08)I couldn’t walk. They put me in wheelchair and it would take me down to a… call it therapy. And there they would get me out of the chair at least and I did speech therapy, occupational therapy and physical therapy. Worked on my head, my arm. That was the occupational therapy and then physical therapy with the right leg. So I couldn’t really talk that well in the very beginning. eventually got it, pretty much. Bill Gasiamis (09:46)Is that cause your speech was slurred? Tom Ballo (09:48)Yeah, it was, it was slurred. was real soft and, which just wasn’t my normal voice. It still isn’t, still is not really my normal voice. Bill Gasiamis (10:01)And has it impacted your memory and the way that you recall things? Tom Ballo (10:05)has not affected me in that regard, in that manner. I was always, I was very, I still am, but very intelligent person. I don’t mean to sound odd with that, but I just have always been, you know. I’ve always had a good, really good, you know, brain, so to speak. Bill Gasiamis (10:34)Yeah. So it hasn’t affected your capacity cognitively, but it’s affected other things. And your voice is not your original kind of sounding voice. You sound a little different. And your right arm is a out of action. Tom Ballo (10:47)No, I mean, this is my right hand here. You know, I can, I can live, but I don’t, I don’t use it for stuff like, you know, it’s kind of a hassle cause I’m right-handed, but to have a right hand apparently affected, you know, affected by the strokes. Bad luck essentially. You know what I mean? Bill Gasiamis (11:15)Yep. Tom Ballo (11:16)now I do a lot of things with my left hand Bill Gasiamis (11:19)Yeah. And what about your right leg? How are you up and about? Can you get around? Does he have aphasia? Tom Ballo (11:27)I can walk for sure. Yeah, I don’t have any kind of walking assistant and I can pretty much. I take care of everything. my wife once was gone for I think four days. And so I was able to take care of myself for four or five days straight by myself. So I’m able to get around. But walking, you know, I’ve fallen a couple of times. I know you’ve talked about that. I have been following, I’d say now it’s been like three or four months. Probably the longest stretch ever. But I was always really good at tripping and catching myself. And people would say, man, I thought for sure you were going down. I was always able to… catch my own balance, I still have that ability so but you know I have to be careful walking around close and there’s a lot of obstacles on the ground they’re close to me to be kind of careful if I’m walking around that. Bill Gasiamis (12:48)And what about driving, Tom? Are you driving? Tom Ballo (12:52)I haven’t driven yet. You know, I want to. I’ve talked about it. Just haven’t had to, haven’t done it. You know, my wife is, she’s great. She does so many things that I haven’t, I haven’t, you know, I don’t really need to drive. Don’t have any need to. Bill Gasiamis (13:12)Yeah. So you have access Tom Ballo (13:13)Yeah, it’s just. Bill Gasiamis (13:14)to transportation even even though you’re not driving, you can still get around. with regards to the speech challenges after the stroke, was there any aphasia or anything like that that also surfaced? Tom Ballo (13:27)I’ll finish ya. I’m gonna go to the set. Bill Gasiamis (13:30)that’s when you’re unable to get words out. You know what the words are, but then you can’t generate the the sound in your mouth. Tom Ballo (13:37) don’t know. Not really. I think I can get everything out. don’t… There’s no… systematic problem that I’m aware of. know, finding… A lot of times won’t talk that much. I don’t have to. But if I do, I don’t have a problem saying things. Bill Gasiamis (14:06)Yeah. How long ago was a stroke now? Tom Ballo (14:08)That’s happened March 1st of last year. about a year and half. happen. Bill Gasiamis (14:18)About a year and a half ago. Tom Ballo (14:20)Yeah, you know, it was interesting when I was in, I was in therapy in-house for six weeks. And so I was about the middle of April, had the stroke on March 1st of last year. I was on with the hospital in middle of April, they sent me home. But, and then I, for the rest of the year, I came in two or three days a week for out, I guess, outpatient therapy. People used to see me and I wouldn’t, it was pretty odd. A lot of people, I don’t know, I’d say at least 10 people over the time. you know, seeing me and I didn’t know them, but they knew me somehow. And they all said, I’m doing a great job, you know, being able to, in their recovery. I guess they had seen me in the very beginning and thought there’s, you know, this guy is going to be messed up bad for life, you know? And I, overcame all that and people would just say all the time I’d get stopped, you’re doing great, you’re just doing wonderful, you It always surprised me that they didn’t even knew. Bill Gasiamis (15:46)So were they family members or? Tom Ballo (15:48)Now they were just total strangers. They were just people who also go to the hospital. Yeah, there was a lot of therapy in that building. It wasn’t really, yeah, it’s… had really good people thought I made a lot of progress. Surprise everybody. Now if you talk about family, my daughters and my wife and pretty much everyone’s that’s seen me. Just this beginning, you know, just can’t believe I’m doing as well as I’m doing. Bill Gasiamis (16:24)What would you say were some of the toughest challenges at the beginning of your recovery? Tom Ballo (16:30)I would say going to the bathroom by myself, was always hard to do in the beginning. And then… I would say walking, you know, I had to use a wheelchair for a while, then a hemi, they called it a hemi walker. Used that for long time and then eventually, you know, learning how to walk again. That was the hardest thing. Bill Gasiamis (17:05)How did your idea of of who you were begin to shift during those early months? Tom Ballo (17:10)That is not a problem that never has been for me. Bill Gasiamis (17:14)Uh-huh. Tom Ballo (17:15)I’ve been me before and during and after stroke. It’s not affected anything about how I feel about myself. It’s Bill Gasiamis (17:25)Mm-hmm. One bad day in eighteen months Tom Ballo (17:29)one thing I had been working on throughout my whole life was working on the mental side. of things and I had, you know, eventually, you know, according to every test I’ve ever seen, I passed them all that said I was what they call self-actualized, which is very rarely accomplished. Bill Gasiamis (17:57)What is self actualized? Tom Ballo (17:59)Well, it’s a theory of psychological development by Abraham Haslow or somebody. the highest, say people are on this pyramid or a triangle and the very top, chip top, the top one or two percent. They say are self-actualized. They become really just means you know yourself. Whereas most people are down near the bottom of the pyramid, focused primarily on survival and belonging and material things. I’ve been very blessed that I was self-actualized long before this stroke happened. it was, it did not affect who I, who I who I am, really. Bill Gasiamis (19:01)So you didn’t change in any way, y even though you have less mobility or you have challenges with your arm, you don’t see yourself as different in any way or not you. Tom Ballo (19:13)Yeah, correct. I’d say out of all, ever since I had the stroke, as far as bad days, I had like one… One bad day, I guess, where I just felt like, man, it’s too hard on this, not try or something. And just felt kind of down. But I felt better the next day and I’ve been the same. So I’ve had one bad day. Yeah, Bill Gasiamis (19:47)One bad day in a year and a half. Not bad. Tom Ballo (19:50)you know, was talking and I’ve talked to a therapist. And was talking to her at the time and I just kind of unloaded. I felt bad and all this. was, I thought I’d kind of given up, I got out of it. Bill Gasiamis (20:09)Just a quick pause. You’re listening to my conversation with Tom Bellow, sixty-five, when a massive stroke hit him with no warning signs at all. And who says that in eighteen months of recovery he’s had exactly one bad day? Before we get back into it, a couple of things. If you’re already a Patreon member, a YouTube member, or you’ve left a super chat or a super thanks on this channel, you’re the reason this show exists. And the reason I can keep covering what it costs to make it. Genuinely thank you. And remember, if what Tom’s describing, rebuilding a sense of who you are after everything’s changed, is something you’re sitting with yourself. That’s exactly what I work through one on one with people at recoveryafterstroke.com/momentum. It’s lived experience coaching, not therapy or medical treatment, and it’s built around getting you moving again when you’re not sure how to start. Let’s get back to Tom. Bill Gasiamis (21:07)Do you miss doing any of the things that you’re not doing at the moment? Your Tom Ballo (21:13)Well. Bill Gasiamis (21:13)for example, your GTA Tom Ballo (21:15)GTA 5? Yeah, I do, although I had a way of playing it now, I still play the game in other video games as well as best I can, but it’s really hard even just to try to keep my finger on the gas pedal in the cars. It’s tough. And it even started hurting after a while, you know. And I stopped. I still play with them. you know, I miss that I’m trying to think. I don’t do the squirrels anymore. We moved. And we don’t have squirrels here. So. It’s been kind of good in a lot of ways. Bill Gasiamis (22:15)How? How has it been good in a lot of ways? Tell me. Tom Ballo (22:20)watch TV, I guess, is I’m trying to get around. I don’t watch normal TV at all, you know, but it has commercials, Bill Gasiamis (22:29)Yeah. Tom Ballo (22:29)anything like that. It’s primarily YouTube and movies, but… Content has to be very truthful and non-deceptive. And I’ve been able to watch and learn a lot of things. I’ve been able to watch these YouTube videos and find, been very active with that. And then in a lot of ways, I used to do everything and now I don’t. And that’s kind of a blessing, I guess. I don’t know. I used to do my own laundry and… I did dishes for everyone and mowed the lawn and all these things that I used to do. Now I don’t have to. Bill Gasiamis (23:34)So now you have somebody else doing those tasks and you have more free time on your hand? Tom Ballo (23:39)Yeah, nobody expects me to do them. You know, really, my wife has been real good. She has picked up the slack, so to speak. It’s not her favorite stuff. I used to do it all. A lot of things. And I don’t have to really do much of anything. We recently moved and moved… couple hours away from Austin to Houston. And I didn’t have to do anything with the move. It doesn’t move a thing. Whereas, I don’t know, just, it’s kind of nice. I try to do dishes whenever I can, but it’s not like, used to be. People would expect me to do everything and I didn’t mind doing it. It’s kind of nice not having to. Bill Gasiamis (24:38)Yeah. Are you living at home with your wife and is it just you and her? So it’s ju just you and your wife at home now. Tom Ballo (24:46)Yeah, as far as living here now, it’s pretty, it’s real quiet because for about two and a half years, we had a really, really full house with my daughter and her husband and three daughters, granddaughters. Bill Gasiamis (25:05)Yeah. A and has your wife ever perhaps mentioned how things have changed for her, how she experiences her the new way that she interacts with you or the differences in the interaction with you? Tom Ballo (25:18)Hmm, not really. Pretty much she… very, pretty much the same. Even when I, even beforehand, I would, pretty much do my own thing and so would she. I’d be playing video games or out with the squirrels. I was on my own anyway. Bill Gasiamis (25:42)Yeah. Tom Ballo (25:43)So really, it’s not really been a big problem. Bill Gasiamis (25:47)Yeah. When you got back from home, were you totally kind of independent? Were you able to toilet yourself and do all those things or did you need support for that? Tom Ballo (25:55)No, I’d say when I first came home, I was still in a wheelchair and still using a flask to go to the bathroom for the first, I don’t know, I’d say about two months at home. until I learned how to walk and then with the hamming walker and then eventually put that thing away and walked by myself. So I’ve had to kind of learn slow. I’ve had to, I’ve made improvements in that regard. Bill Gasiamis (26:45)Yeah. Your wife sounds like she definitely stood by you. Who else was around? How did your kids get involved in those early days? Tom Ballo (26:53)Well, the first week my daughter and her husband were taking care of me or coming to see me in intensive care and stuff like that at the hospital. And then, my wife was in Europe for the first week of my, first week of the stroke. But then, The symptom that’s getting worse And you know, my daughter lived with us. She would occasionally, well, I don’t know, she had to think back on it. Pretty much once my wife, Linda, you know, had come back, she took care of me. yeah, she took care that care me. Bill Gasiamis (27:45)Yeah. took care of all of your needs, I would say. I Tom Ballo (27:50)Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (27:51)would imagine. Is that right? Like everything you needed to sort of be able to get in and out of bed and to get food and to get showered. Did you guys have any help come from any services like nursing or anything like that? Tom Ballo (28:04)I never had that, did not need that. We fixed, well, we completely redid one of the bathrooms at my last house and made it so I could do a walk. It ended up being a really nice bath area with a bench and a. Handheld nozzle not a tub, but walk in kind of a thing. So we fixed a shower because at first… Bill Gasiamis (28:41)like that. Tom Ballo (28:42)No, I don’t think I have. It was primarily me just each day trying to get a little bit better. But I’ll tell you, one of the problems that I’ve had is that I’m getting more more spasticity, spasticity and Bill Gasiamis (29:05)Yeah. Tom Ballo (29:08)muscle tightness. I mean, it’s gotten, I’d say. Every day it gets like one thousandth worse every day. It doesn’t automatically get better even if you work out or anything. Bill Gasiamis (29:24)Yeah. Do you have s massage or anything like that to help relieve it? Tom Ballo (29:33)Well, I didn’t know for that. I haven’t had anything yet. I’m thinking of. don’t know. I don’t know if it’ll work. Find a hospital and start and see what they say. There’s something that they can can do. It’s. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (29:54)Challenging. Tom Ballo (29:55)I thought that it would, you know, just you. It would just get better each day, but it’s not quite that way. I used to be able to close my hand, I can still do that. But now it feels like it’s just a lot tighter. It’s not really painful, but it’s borderline painful. I don’t know, it’s not really pain, but also my feeling is much more sensitive. Like when I yawn, I can feel a tremendous amount of tingling. throughout my entire, my whole right leg from my hip down to my foot. Bill Gasiamis (30:49)When you yawn. Tom Ballo (30:50)when I yawn, for some reason it just energizes my leg. I don’t know, or like, if I don’t, okay, like if I just don’t move my right arm at all, but they put it at rest, I don’t feel anything. There’s no tingling, there’s no sensation. As soon as I start moving it, and if I touch anything, I can really, really feel it a lot more now than I did at the beginning. It’s very sensitive to touch. Bill Gasiamis (31:27)Yeah. I know what you mean. did you ever feel like your like your autonomy or your dignity were being challenged when you went through this? How did you navigate that part of it? Tom Ballo (31:38)Well, see, gets back into my being self-actualized. Bill Gasiamis (31:47)Yeah. Tom Ballo (31:49)My dignity was never affected by any of this. Now it’s been, I don’t know, like if people see me in a store or in a market, they’re always more than willing to want to talk or they make me feel special in a way. So that doesn’t, it doesn’t bother me. And people like to hear, they have a lot of questions. It doesn’t affect my dignity at all. I haven’t fallen down in public, Bill Gasiamis (32:28)Okay. Tom Ballo (32:29)so it hasn’t happened. I’ve heard people say that bothers them. That’s Bill Gasiamis (32:32)W what it doesn’t sound like there’s much that would affect your dignity that you seem pretty mild mannered and calm about many things. Tom Ballo (32:41)Yeah, I’m very… I don’t know how to put it. I’ve just been, people have commented and have noticed by themselves that I’m not like normal. There’s something about me, I really know myself more than most people do. Bill Gasiamis (33:02)Yeah. Your what about your message for people who are just starting their stroke recovery? If they were listening, you know, w what would you say to them? You’re a a year and a half in, so you have some insights and some awareness. What would you share with the people who are just starting their recovery? The one thing that hasn’t changed Tom Ballo (33:18)Well, you know, one thing I do is I watch a lot of videos about strokes surviving. So and every stroke is different. That’s one thing. It’s kind of stroke recovery is different and the severity of the strokes are different for everybody. it’s kind of hard to say for everybody how to how they can get along. But I would say, of course, would try to tell people to try to become, have as much confidence in yourself as you possibly can and stay positive. And, you know, it’s hard to do if you want that way to begin with. I’ve been lucky that I was been positive before I started this, before I had the stroke. some benefit to me after the stroke. It didn’t affect it. So I would say keep on trying. It’s going to be something to work on all the time, every day from here on out. Bill Gasiamis (34:40)Yeah. What are you hoping to work on in the next say twelve months? What’s on your on your list of things to get done or to continue to do? Tom Ballo (34:48)Well, the main thing for me is hopefully spasticity, it’s hard to say for me now, spasticity, doesn’t get any, just hopefully that’s. I can get that out of control. That’s all I worry about in the future, so to speak. All I think about is hoping that that doesn’t get a lot worse. You know, if you… Bill Gasiamis (35:32)Just want such a some improvement in the deficits. Tom Ballo (35:35)Yeah, improvement in… You know, I was always, I had stretched every day or every night for 30 minutes. For my whole life, I’ve been into stretching. And… Now, you know, it’s the opposite. I got stiffness like you’ve never seen. But luckily it has not affected my sleeping at all. Matter of I haven’t had a bad night’s sleep since day of the stroke. Every evening or every night, sleeping is perfect. Bill Gasiamis (36:17)Yeah, that’s excellent. Tell me, Thomas, do they know what caused their brain hemorrhage? Tom Ballo (36:23)No, they really don’t. And no one ever came to me and ever once wanted to or wanted to tell me or wanted to find out about what caused it. They were always seem like they were always more like in the moment trying to get just trying to get everything better, doing the best thing. to recover. as far as what might have happened, no real idea. I would just say it overall. got, I mean, the stroke I had was probably about as severe as anybody had. It’s really not, you know, it’s not completely debilitating. It’s not too bad, really. Bill Gasiamis (37:26)Yeah. Hey Thomas, I really appreciate you reaching out. Thank you so much for connecting with me and sharing your story. Tom Ballo (37:34)Thank you for having me on. Bill Gasiamis (37:37)Well, that was Tom Bellow, thirty-two years a litigator, eighteen months a survivor, and someone who will tell you straight that some things, like the spasticity he’s living with, have gotten harder rather than easier. Even while he’s had by his own account just one bad day. That kind of honesty is rare. And it’s exactly why this conversation moves the way it does. Tom’s not performing recovery for you. He’s describing it at his own pace. And that’s worth sitting with rather than rushing past. That’s really the reason these episodes get made at all. Not to hand you a formula, but to let you hear what recovery actually sounds like from someone living it. Because the version you carry in your head before you’ve heard someone like Tom is almost never the real thing. If this conversation gave you something, a moment of recognition, a reason to keep going, a way to explain your own recovery to someone who doesn’t get it yet, the most useful thing you can do is share it with one person who needs to hear it today. Remember to check out my book, The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing That Happened. It’s available at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. And on that note, my new book is out now. And this one’s a bit different. It’s not about stroke specifically, it’s about what happens after any kind of trauma reshapes your life and how you rebuild even when you don’t feel ready to. It’s called Your World Doesn’t Have to Stay This Small. And if your world has gotten smaller since your stroke, fewer places you go, fewer things you say yes to, fewer people you see. That’s the book I wrote for you. Remember to grab your copy on Amazon, search the title, or use the link in the show notes. If this show has helped you, remember you can support it at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. Thanks for listening. I’m Bill Gasiamis and this is Recovery After Stroke.     The post Stroke With No Warning Signs – Tom Ballo’s One Bad Day in Eighteen Months appeared first on Recovery After Stroke.

Don’t miss this massive ecosystem shift! Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ Host Vince Menzione sits down with industry leaders Nicole Dziedzic, Erwin Visser, and Mira Ayad to uncover the critical transformations happening across the technology ecosystem and marketplace. The panel explores the impact of Reseller Enabled Offers (REO), the changing role of distribution into aggregation, and the immense opportunities surrounding agentic AI. They also dive into why MSPs need to ruthlessly simplify their technology stacks to make room for business value selling, and how data tools like ASPX are changing the game for proactive channel strategies. https://youtu.be/4Ox507-0l_8 Key Takeaways The marketplace has completely transformed software procurement and is now rapidly expanding into the SMB sector. Reseller Enabled Offers (REO) allow partners to own private offers on behalf of ISVs while maintaining their trusted advisor status. Ingram has introduced the MCP server to help partners automate and pull necessary distribution data seamlessly. The next few years represent a “golden age” for MSPs if they can successfully adopt, build, and operationalize AI agents. Microsoft’s ASPX platform gives partners critical usage and marketing signals to proactively target customer opportunities. MSPs must simplify their bloated technology stacks to create space for selling true business value with agentic AI. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags agentic AI, Reseller Enabled Offers, MCP server, marketplace syndication, ASPX data, Agent 365, precision velocity, managed service providers, hyperscaler enablement, technology stack simplification, Ultimate Partner Experience, cloud solutions strategy, customer zero, ISV go-to-market. Transcript Nicole – Erwin – Mira Podcast [00:00:00] Mira Ayad: I think it’s a very simple formula. Start where your customer is at, like meet the customer. Where they act is not just a generic cliche state statement. [00:00:10] Vince Menzione: You can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us, the way hyperscalers are partnering, how AI is remaking the channel. And what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:21] Vince Menzione: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. I’m Vince Menzi, own your host. And each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology, partnerships and outcomes, the voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the strategy. [00:00:43] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because being in the room changes everything. Let’s start. [00:00:53] Vince Menzione: We’ve got some word friends of ultimate partner coming up now, and then I’m gonna have them come up and introduce themselves. Uh, most of these people I’ve had the opportunity to meet Nicole, come on up. Come on. Good to meet you. I’m gonna have everyone introduce themselves. This guy, I never know. I’ve never met this guy before. [00:01:12] Vince Menzione: Mira, great to see you again. We gotta be on stage about a month ago. Yes. And we get to do this again while a different panel conversation. So, terrific. [00:01:22] Vince Menzione: Nicole, we’re gonna start with you on from the far end and come this way. So I’ll have you introduce yourself to, to our audience. [00:01:27] Nicole Dziedzic: Yeah. So, uh, so I lead our, uh, US business for Ingram, uh, really focused on our customer success and renewals across our vendor stack. [00:01:36] Vince Menzione: Thank you for being here. [00:01:37] Nicole Dziedzic: Okay, [00:01:37] Nicole Dziedzic: thank you. I’m excited. Awesome. [00:01:39] Erwin Visser: Yeah. Uh, great to be here again. Thanks, uh, fin for, for having us and a lot of familiar faces. So, uh, Erman, Viser, uh, I recently changed roles, so four weeks ago, uh, in Microsoft. I’m, uh, I just, uh, started to, uh, to lead the, uh, the Cloud Solutions Strategy team, uh, still in GCPS, so our global channel organization. [00:02:01] Vince Menzione: And Mira, great to see you again. [00:02:03] Mira Ayad: Same here. Yes. I’m looking forward for this conversation. We had so much fun last time. [00:02:07] Vince Menzione: Yes, [00:02:08] Vince Menzione: so [00:02:08] Vince Menzione: good. [00:02:09] Mira Ayad: My name is Mira Ayad . I’m the GM for a global Microsoft marketplace. My team leads the strategy and operations. I’ve been with Microsoft for seven months, I think, but this is not my first rodeo. [00:02:21] Mira Ayad: This is my fourth time boomeranging to Microsoft. Yeah. [00:02:26] Vince Menzione: And for context for people, we have talked about marketplace quite a bit, but the conversation has expanded at Microsoft in, in bigger ways. Uh, before, was it November that. REO was announced. [00:02:39] Nicole Dziedzic: Yes. [00:02:40] Vince Menzione: Yes. We’ll talk about that. But maybe you, you talk a little bit about the reseller enabled, uh, offers and, uh, and maybe we’ll take, we’ll take us through that and then how Ingram has been a great partner, and of course, Erwin’s organization has been really front and center with some of this. [00:02:55] Vince Menzione: So let’s go there for, let’s go first tell us, tell us about, about REO. Sure. For those and, and your, your role is, um, we had Cy on stage yesterday. But your role is front and center with the channel, with the with the reseller community. Right. Taking marketplace into the resellers. [00:03:12] Mira Ayad: Sure. So, uh, Cyril is my partner in crime. [00:03:16] Mira Ayad: He leads the marketing for marketplace. Um, my team focus across all personas that hits marketplace from an ISV to channel partners, buyers, and even the Microsoft sellers themselves. Like how can we bring that vibe and that energy? To bring marketplace, to be front and center. Um, REO is, um, a feature that we’ve launched back in November and it’s, it was a very strong statement from Microsoft of how we’re bringing the channel partners into that marketplace journey. [00:03:45] Mira Ayad: With RE Reseller enabled offers, we allow partners to own the private offer that they can extend to their customers on behalf of the SDCs. So kind of bring that scale mechanism for SDCs to access that channel community and for the channel partner to remain the trusted advisor and provide not only marketplace, um, products, but Microsoft services their own professional services. [00:04:12] Mira Ayad: And wrap that and provide a one-stop shop for customers. [00:04:17] Vince Menzione: And it’s really lit up organizations like Ingram. Nicole, I like, it’s been a maybe a minute here, like talking about the evolution of Ingram. ’cause I think back at the old role of the DTI credit, availability of product and delivery, right? Yeah. The kind of the three things. [00:04:34] Nicole Dziedzic: Yeah, and those are still really, really important to the core of how we go to market. ’cause I think we heard yesterday, every dollar of software, uh, requires a dollar of hardware. So it’s not anything that we’re getting away from. But I think, you know, the marketplaces and the automation, and really where we’ve been transforming our business over the last six to 10 years is how do we take some of that transactional work away from our partners? [00:04:57] Nicole Dziedzic: Make it simpler so that you can really focus on more strategic areas. Marketplace has been a, a heavy part of our go-to-market and something that we’ve been embracing for many years now, um, and seen a lot of success in helping the partners on that journey and helping the vendors really accelerate that with the partner community and the end customers. [00:05:15] Nicole Dziedzic: But it’s also really enabled us to look at how do we wanna show up into our partners differently, right? So as we automate our business. Help our partners automate their business. We have the opportunity to upskill our own resources. And so some of the key areas that we’ve really been focused on is our post-sales motions, and how do we really ensure that the partners customers are leveraging the technology, optimizing it, and adopting it in a much faster pace. [00:05:45] Nicole Dziedzic: So that the investments that they’re making are netting an ROIA lot quicker. Those, uh, those have been things that we have accelerated across our vendor stack. Um, and I think it’s gonna become much more important as we continue to see technology evolve, especially around AI and co-pilot’s. A huge part of what we’ve been really focused on for the last year. [00:06:05] Nicole Dziedzic: Um, the biggest thing that we’re really seeing in the market today. Not just within the MSPs, but within our end customers is that they struggle in terms of how they really get the ROI out of it quickly. Um, and so our team is very human first. Uh, we do have digital motions, but really human first to really dive into the different personas. [00:06:25] Nicole Dziedzic: How do we help them attack that from an end customer perspective? How do we really help them drive value out of those solutions? [00:06:32] Vince Menzione: So what does enablement look like for them? [00:06:34] Nicole Dziedzic: Yeah, so, um, I loved the quote, uh, from some of the folks in the last session because it’s really about meeting our customers where they are. [00:06:42] Nicole Dziedzic: And so it is a, I always call it we play in the gray and we love to play in the gray all day. Um, because our partners and our our partners customers wanna interact differently. And so we wanna make sure that we have, um, ways to interact with them across. Stack both from a digital standpoint where you can really drive efficiency through digital messaging and marketing, um, all the way up to high touch. [00:07:03] Nicole Dziedzic: So those larger customers can get, uh, hands-on training and enablement. We can do it on behalf of our partners or with our partners to really drive that into the end customer, and then that enables us to really customize it. So what personas are we going to engage with? What are the key features we’re looking to get out of it? [00:07:20] Nicole Dziedzic: Um, and largely what are the outcomes that that company is driving towards over the next 1, 2, 3 years, so we can always stay ahead of what their needs are. [00:07:29] Vince Menzione: Nice. So Erwin, what is Microsoft doing to enable this distribution channel to be more effective with partners? [00:07:36] Erwin Visser: Yeah. Uh, it’s a great question. And, and Nicole, I I love how you, uh, and, and Ingram is, is kind of really leaning in mm-hmm. [00:07:43] Erwin Visser: In driving these customer outcomes and, and helping your partners that even if needed, kind of working with your partners or stepping in front of your partners to help drive these outcomes. ’cause I, I think that’s, uh, we’re. Uh, it clearly ev you, you need to meet the customer where they is. But, uh, having helping customers adopt ai, adopt these new AI solutions agents, I think that is going to be super important for partners to drive, uh, incremental value and also the ROI for themselves as well as for the, for the customers. [00:08:14] Erwin Visser: But Microsoft is, have we, um, one of the things that we are heavily investing in at this moment is our skills platform, our scaling platform. So we, we, if, if people have followed us, we kind of revamped it in the last three, four months. Uh, and we are really not just investing now heavily in technical skills, but also project readiness skills for partners as well as sales skills. [00:08:37] Erwin Visser: Uh, like how do you sell in this new world of, uh, of ai. So where you can see, uh, uh, incremental, uh, ongoing investment in our scaling platform. Um, the other thing that we’re, we’re really working on at this moment, uh, with our. Tech team is, is building more helping partners to build like standardized service offerings and also understand this what’s, what is the capability they need to be successful in and, and become ed themself. [00:09:05] Erwin Visser: And, and we’re doing that also in partnership with the, with income. So income can use kind of some of these, these frameworks than to, to leverage them for their partners and then help with, uh, with that enablement. [00:09:18] Vince Menzione: So Mira when we think, so we think about it from a couple different lenses here, right? [00:09:22] Vince Menzione: Because we’ve got the Microsoft first party products that are, that are being offered through distribution channel to customers, and then we have what I call third party, right? Mm-hmm. Which is a lot of what the marketplace does. It does both. But I think about the marketplace, I think about ISVs, I think about agentic ai. [00:09:40] Vince Menzione: How do we, how do you bring it all together? [00:09:43] Mira Ayad: Um, the way I think of marketplace, and you and I talked about this before, yes, it’s that intersection where SDCs ISVs services and solutions meet. First party solutions meet professional services provided by system integrator and all wrapped up to provide that complete solution for customers. [00:10:04] Mira Ayad: So marketplace, kind of that perfect intersection for all of those parties to meet, um, from a customer perspective depends on the segment. We all know that marketplace is born and raised to be an enterprise tool. Now we’re seeing more and more s and b customers coming trying to leverage marketplace. [00:10:20] Mira Ayad: Yeah, [00:10:20] Vince Menzione: very much so. [00:10:21] Mira Ayad: So the role of enablement and how we activate the channel to really be front and center, more proactive as they go and talk to their SMB customers. Find the ways to monetize their solutions and their services for the SMB customers so they can adopt that marketplace. Because with everything that’s happening in the industry, one thing we know for sure that marketplace transformed how procurement of software happens. [00:10:46] Mira Ayad: Yes. And it’s here to stay. [00:10:48] Vince Menzione: Very much so. Very much so. And Nicole, I’m interested too on, on this side because we, we have, this is the first year that we’ve invited quite a few MSPs into the room as well. Right. We were very much ISV and reseller and, and SI focused. Uh, this time has changed like no other. [00:11:05] Vince Menzione: Right. We’ve been talking all morning about all this agentic ai. As an as an MSPI, my my sense is like I need to have my hands on the steering wheel for my customer at all times. And how are you thinking through it? How are you working with those organizations on driving some of that? [00:11:22] Nicole Dziedzic: Yeah, so again, it’s about meeting even our partners where they are. [00:11:26] Nicole Dziedzic: And so one of the things that we’ve recently released at Ingram is our MCP server. And so how do we enable our partners to then connect their agent capabilities that they’ve built internally to grab the data from Ingram so that they can interact with us how they want to, you know, we have our platform and, and. [00:11:43] Nicole Dziedzic: We don’t wanna force everybody to go into a platform. And so that server is gonna enable you to build capabilities internally in the tools that you’ve already invested in so that you can, again, refocus your energies and your teams, um, on selling on these new go-to markets that enables you to grab the data that you need and. [00:12:03] Nicole Dziedzic: Essentially a snapshot of your account when you’re buying through distribution, all with a really simple click of a button. I know I, I oversimplify it, but I’m not that technical. Um, but it is really a click of a button. And so as we continue to release capabilities, API feeds, if you’re connected via that server and you have those agent capabilities already internally, then it’s as simple as us just continuing to release and you’ll continue to be able to grab that information. [00:12:28] Vince Menzione: Mira’s gram’s approach, what you’re starting to see across most of the distribution channel. Yeah, [00:12:34] Mira Ayad: more or less, yes. Like we, we’ve seen, we’ve partnering with Ingram on, on multiple fronts. Uh, there’s another feature that we bring and Ingram has been our, uh, partner in crime, which is syndication, which we push the marketplace listings into the Ingram portal to support what Nicole just said. [00:12:52] Mira Ayad: So partners get to use the tools that they are using today. We’re meeting them where they are. We’re not forcing them into one platform over the other. Um, I think enablement. The role of enablement and the distributor as an enabler is going to grow even more. Uh, switching that message of how can you sell a task oriented agent versus a solution [00:13:17] Mira Ayad: Yes. [00:13:17] Mira Ayad: Um, is a, is a game changer. And we also see, I I like to say this, like distribution are now becoming an aggregation and a distributor. Yes. So they get to aggregate all that solution between all hyperscalers marketplaces. And find that core enablement so partners can be a plug and play and use their core competency to sell and be that trusted advisor for their customer instead of wasting time trying to figure out where to get enabled or how to get enabled. [00:13:44] Mira Ayad: Mm-hmm. So absolutely a hundred percent the aligned. [00:13:46] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Enablement seems to be a big theme here, right, Nicole? And, and, and you’ve got some new products is MCP server and. Some of the things you’re doing there as well. [00:13:55] Nicole Dziedzic: Yeah, I would say even above and beyond the, the MCP server for the automation, you know, enablement enable is kind of our core function of our enablement strategy and enable ai, enable MSP are two of the most recent ones that we’ve released to market. [00:14:10] Nicole Dziedzic: Um, one of the things that we’ve really identified. Especially within the M-S-P-S-M-B and mid-market partner community is that there’s still a struggle in what does AI actually mean for my strategy and out to my end customers. And so we’ve created paths to enable our partners, MSPs, their end customers on how do you build that strategy for AI that’s both going to create outcomes for your end customers, um, but also be safe and secure as you kind of bring it to market. [00:14:39] Vince Menzione: Erwin on your side, on the marketing side, and you just shifted roles. You were [00:14:43] Erwin Visser: Yeah. Know. Yeah. Piece. Well, I didn’t forget everything that I did. Okay, good. No, I, it was only last week. Right. I’m, I’m getting older, but I still have a little bit of memory. Last year, uh, the, the, um, yeah, I wanted, uh, react quickly on the, on MSPs, especially think it’s incredible time. [00:14:59] Erwin Visser: And, and, uh, and, and so you, I think most people probably know that Microsoft, this, uh, our fiscal year start on July 1st. So May, uh, uh, April, may up to June is like really our crunch time for planning. So we’re in the middle of it. But, and, and without seeing, like giving you too much like insights or details, but. [00:15:18] Erwin Visser: We, we believe there, uh, is an in significant opportunity, almost like the golden age for MSPs in the next years. [00:15:25] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:15:26] Erwin Visser: Uh, if they are able, the, the partners that are able to embrace ai, and we, we kind of think about it in, in maybe in three different like steps or, or framework of clearly, uh, being a customer, zero. [00:15:41] Erwin Visser: And I assume a lot of people, or a lot of people talked about it in the last day and a half, so I don’t have to go in deep here, but hey, you have to adopt the technology itself to be able to deliver and sell it to customers. But then the, the other two steps that we believe one is, uh, uh, built an an agents or an agent accelerator and, uh, that can mean that. [00:16:02] Erwin Visser: Uh, leverage, uh, marketplaces for finding and customizing agents or having competency in-house to build agents for your customers. And then the third step is, is operationalize agents. And I think pe the partners that have experience at this moment with managed services probably have a step ahead. ’cause we had the in. [00:16:24] Erwin Visser: For more and more customers in the future, we’ll rely on a partner to manage and to help support their, their, uh, agent infrastructure. And so, uh, MSPs that can really, uh, jump into that and can help customers to manage, protect, secure, uh, uh, uh, their, uh, their agent in, uh, infrastructure, uh, that will be an an significant opportunity. [00:16:49] Erwin Visser: Um, one of the products that, you know, I’m, I’m not gonna do a product pitch yet, but still, I’m gonna mention you can, [00:16:55] Vince Menzione: and you can also share things that are gonna be announced with us as well. [00:16:58] Erwin Visser: Well, this is, uh, this is, this is announced already, but hey, we, uh, one of the technologies we are very excited about that’s, uh, hopefully can also support MSPs is, uh, agent 365. [00:17:10] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:17:10] Erwin Visser: Which, uh, which really can help partners to, to kind of like secure and manage and, and drive governance around [00:17:17] Vince Menzione: agents. Still, still very new product by the way. [00:17:19] Erwin Visser: Yeah, it’s, uh, uh, [00:17:20] Vince Menzione: makes a big difference. [00:17:21] Erwin Visser: Awesome. [00:17:23] Vince Menzione: So, Mira, this is very, you know, it’s funny because initially when you would think about what you, what you’re doing with REO as being like big ISVs, selling big solutions through marketplaces, we, we now brought the channel in. [00:17:38] Vince Menzione: But now the ag agentic has really changed the things dramatically. Right, right. Let’s talk about that. How does it, how does it fit into your strategy as you go into the SMB market as well? Right. [00:17:48] Mira Ayad: Great question. And um, I’d like to tell a story in a little [00:17:52] Vince Menzione: bit. Please, please. [00:17:53] Mira Ayad: So, one of my greatest mentors, um, I was just having a chat with him a couple of days ago, and I’m just like, the market is changing faster than anyone can catch up. [00:18:02] Mira Ayad: And he told me, Mira. It’s not a chess game anymore, it’s a squash game. So it’s all about being agile, beating the ball with it, what it is, uh, and moving fast. And I think the strategy for marketplace and for the channel, Microsoft has always been a channel first company, so this is not a news for anyone. [00:18:20] Mira Ayad: Next year we’re focusing more into bringing the channel into marketplace. We are having, and I’m sure Sarah talked about it, uh, yesterday a little bit. We’re having very targeted approach to bring. Agents that customer actually wants into marketplace. So not just a, a traffic jam of agents. Uh, we’re being very precise about it from a channel perspective. [00:18:44] Mira Ayad: Alex? Agree. My colleague, she has a, an a a session later. She [00:18:48] Vince Menzione: does for having Alex on stage here. [00:18:50] Mira Ayad: Yes. And she’s gonna talk more about this channel strategy overall, but being customer zero. Is big for us and precision velocity is something else. Like how can we help the partners [00:19:00] Vince Menzione: precision velocity. I like That’s [00:19:02] Mira Ayad: right. [00:19:02] Mira Ayad: And she’s gonna talk a lot about it. I’m [00:19:04] Vince Menzione: not gonna say [00:19:04] Mira Ayad: her thunder. [00:19:05] Vince Menzione: I wanted to hear, I wanna hear more about it. So it’s, it’s compelling. [00:19:08] Mira Ayad: I know. Just, uh, a under session today, [00:19:11] Vince Menzione: well, I think I’m gonna be leading it, but come in this afternoon. Absolutely. [00:19:16] Mira Ayad: Absolutely. Yes. So moving from being a scale player to actually know what you’re really good at and have that precision. [00:19:23] Mira Ayad: To sell and get your customer where they want to be. I think it’s, it’s all how the strategy is aligned, yet shifting a little bit to reflect what’s happening in the industry. [00:19:33] Vince Menzione: And you’re no stranger to marketplace. Right. Um, we talked about your career journey, but you start off in Microsoft. We sort of knew each other back in the day, right? [00:19:43] Vince Menzione: Yes. Public sector. [00:19:44] Mira Ayad: Yes. [00:19:44] Vince Menzione: And then you left and you went across the river or across, across the lake. It was a lake or river? The lake. Lake. Yeah. You can tell I don’t live here, but [00:19:53] Mira Ayad: it’s a pond. [00:19:53] Vince Menzione: It’s a pond, yeah. [00:19:55] Mira Ayad: Um, so yes, I did start in, uh, Microsoft as a PDM for public sector focusing on education partners. [00:20:00] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:20:01] Mira Ayad: Um, [00:20:01] Vince Menzione: Anthony Salcito. [00:20:02] Mira Ayad: Anthony STO was the GM back then. And then I spent some time in an ISV. Um, it was a startup. I think I’ve, I had like my MBA on how to start businesses there. Which I boomerang to Microsoft to be part of the architecture team of a tiny program. I’m not sure if you guys are familiar with it. [00:20:23] Mira Ayad: It’s called CSP. So I launched CSP for the channel partners hosting telco’s, distribution. And then, um, our neighbors across the pond called the pond, me to come and help them build a channel program. Um, and then for, for three years, and then I spend the next seven. On AWS marketplace, uh, helping with, uh, channel adoption and strategy and enablement. [00:20:50] Vince Menzione: Nice. Very nice. Okay. And, um, the perspective on that as well. Bringing you, you talking about being precise. I think I heard what I, what I gleaned from your last set of comments is it can be so overwhelming to have all these agents, thousands and thousands of agents out there, how do, how do I decide, what do I go do and do the agents conflict with one another in terms of how they, how they react, and how they maybe start procuring on my behalf. [00:21:18] Mira Ayad: Um, I think it’s a very simple formula. Start where your customer is at, like meet the customer where they at is not just a generic cliche state statement. Customers are gonna lead our MSPs, our channel, our distribution, and our hyperscalers with their marketplaces or what needs to be built and how fast they want it. [00:21:37] Mira Ayad: And we should not lose sight of that. Um, just. Customer win is a win for everyone. That’s the, that’s, I think that’s the simple formula. And across all, uh, hyperscaler marketplaces, I think everyone is trying to win the heart and the mind of the customer first. [00:21:52] Nicole Dziedzic: Yes. [00:21:53] Mira Ayad: And then we, as the platforms and the channel community, we need to work very closely, um, with precision, with high level of, um, depth of knowledge to bring customers faster and make that customer zero. [00:22:10] Mira Ayad: From our perspective as an internal customer first and our first customer that we’re gonna build the case studies around to build that flywheel so we can accelerate that. So the first five offer becomes, the second, becomes the hundreds. Um, and this is how we bring it on. But always start from the customer. [00:22:26] Vince Menzione: I’m thinking about Jay’s slide yesterday, Jim McBain slide about the 28 moments [00:22:31] Mira Ayad: Yes. [00:22:32] Vince Menzione: And all the, all the partner types that are involved in that process. Right. The ISVs. Uh, CSPs, I mean actually lay out more partner types, ISPs, CSPs, distributor, uh, reseller, all all aligned in that customer journey and all. [00:22:49] Vince Menzione: And so just that coordination and that effort. I just wanna get everybody’s point of view on that maybe. [00:22:53] Erwin Visser: Yeah. [00:22:54] Vince Menzione: Or [00:22:54] Erwin Visser: you want start, Nicole? [00:22:55] Nicole Dziedzic: Yeah. I mean, I think it takes an army, right? And I think it’s about how does each. Each kind of persona simplify the process for the next person. And I think that’s probably the key piece of it. [00:23:06] Nicole Dziedzic: And I’ll, I’ll talk from a distribution lens, is that our goal is that we wanna make sure it’s simpler for our vendors, for our partners to be able to transact in the marketplaces. Um, and also be that conduit, right? To provide that feedback back to vendors around what’s working, what’s not working, so we can go faster, right? [00:23:23] Nicole Dziedzic: And so the partners can go faster, um, but also be super sound in how they bring it to market. [00:23:30] Vince Menzione: And I, and I think what I also got outta that conversation, I want to get your point of view on this, is because again, I go back to ISV thinking, direct selling model. [00:23:39] Mira Ayad: Yeah. [00:23:40] Vince Menzione: And oh, there’s this thing called the channel and oh, we have to go do this. [00:23:42] Vince Menzione: But I think what that illustrated, that slide illustrated to me yesterday. Was how important to have all the multiple touch points involved because the deal is happening before you were entering the room. Right. So how, how are you, how and again, why, why do ISVs? I think, I think the answer is right there. [00:24:00] Nicole Dziedzic: Yeah. I, it’s about how do we scale you and how do we simplify. For the partners. Um, I think the biggest challenge that young ISVs really run into is that they do forget about the channel. And the channel is massive. Um, and the channel gives you reach and it gives you scale by leveraging MSPs and better communities. [00:24:24] Nicole Dziedzic: Distribution comes into the fold because we are that scale for the partners themselves. We are that scale for the MSPs, right? And so there has to be a connection between the two to really enable the ISVs that are direct today, um, to scale to probably the levels that they wanna scale, and a trusted partnership where we can bring in. [00:24:46] Nicole Dziedzic: What works, what doesn’t work? Best practices. ’cause we have worked with a lot of vendors and we continue to work with a lot of vendors, um, on how to continue to scale their business. [00:24:55] Vince Menzione: What’s it, what do they get wrong? You mentioned the younger ISVs. Mm-hmm. The newer is more startup ISVs and the startup doesn’t take long. [00:25:02] Vince Menzione: You can get to a billion dollars. Yeah. Pretty quickly these days. What do they get wrong? And then how do you solve for that for them? [00:25:08] Nicole Dziedzic: I, I think what they get wrong at times, um, is building out a true partner program that makes sense for the MSPs, for traditional VARs, um, for sis to actually wanna participate, right? [00:25:24] Nicole Dziedzic: Because there’s a lot of competition out there, and you have to differentiate yourself. And part of that is making sure you’re not forgetting about what you’re. Partner program is gonna be to bring to market. I think that’s probably the biggest thing. The, the other piece is that, you know, there is a lot of solutions out there and so what’s your compelling event, compelling reason, right, for a partner to wanna bring you into their stock, into their end customers. [00:25:47] Nicole Dziedzic: And that is something that we, at times are missing as well, is, is what’s differentiating you from the person next to you. [00:25:55] Vince Menzione: Mira, anything to add to that? [00:25:57] Mira Ayad: Um, I think working with ISBs for the past, I don’t know how many years in my career, um, I always get asked the same question, how can I utilize marketplace? [00:26:06] Mira Ayad: How can I do the pricing? And I listed on marketplace, how come the deals are not falling from the sky? Yes, exactly. And um, my answer has always been. Listing a marketplace is the first step, not the last, right? What is your go-to-market strategy? How are you going to go to market? What’s the role of the channel that they want them to play? [00:26:28] Mira Ayad: Do you want them to become just a reseller and an extended Salesforce arm? Do you want them to take that to implementation and take your support? I think Microsoft kind of between all of the partner types that we have and the great distributors that we partner with, we kind of unlock that for guys because we can have that conversation and help them with their go-to market strategy. [00:26:49] Mira Ayad: But I think first is marketplace need to be in the beginning of the deals, not at the end. So they can always be like, okay, I’m going to be listed to the marketplace when they pitch that to the customer. Bring the marketplace philosophy and the channel into the deal making. Not on the 11th hour. Yeah. [00:27:06] Vince Menzione: Yeah. I liked what an ISV said earlier about actually unlocking their sales organization by putting incentives out there. Yes. To be marketplace first. Erwin, you, you’re the accelerant. Yeah. Go to markets. You’re the marketing guy in the, in this conversation. [00:27:21] Erwin Visser: Yeah. So I, I’m, I’m maybe, uh, I was thinking on the other side, it’s like, and there’s a clearly a role for the ISV. [00:27:26] Erwin Visser: Yeah. And opportunity through marketplace. I also think there’s an opportunity on the MSP side to really, uh, be proactive around, uh, the ISV solutions that you can deliver to your customers. And, and one of the things that, uh, I, I still see is that, uh, some of our partners are not using just the data that is available and that we also have, uh, as Microsoft and with Ingram give to our partners to really see what the opportunities are out there. [00:27:52] Erwin Visser: And, uh, a new, uh, platform that we released, uh, a few months ago. A SPX. Uh, I would kind of be curious to see, uh, hands up like, uh, of the MSPs in the room. Have you heard of a SPX? A few. Okay. So we still have a little bit more eventually to do here, but, uh, yeah. So we we’re, uh, bringing, uh, data sources to our partners, uh, that combine like usage data and marketing signals, other information that we have, licensing data that that really helps our partners also because. [00:28:24] Erwin Visser: To be, to understand where your customer is. Yeah. You first have to understand also the data of your customer and, and the signals that they are giving in the marketplace so you can help understand where the, the next opportunity is. And so we’re, uh, we have another great partnership with, uh, with Ingram around this data sources and in income enriches them and brings them to their resellers. [00:28:45] Erwin Visser: But I think that’s still, uh, uh, clearly if I saw the hands, an opportunity for us to, uh, to bring that more to the market. Yeah. [00:28:53] Vince Menzione: And let’s not forget the MSPs in this conversation, right? Because they are like at, at all, at all levels, whether it be first party, third party, cross marketplace. They are the instrumentation in front of the customer. [00:29:05] Vince Menzione: And I think there’s a great opportunity and know you talk about how you and enabling them. Um, maybe some last comments about how MSPs in this room could be more successful in the coming year, working with your organizations. Yeah. [00:29:18] Nicole Dziedzic: Yeah. I mean, I think for us it’s challenge us, um, bring forward things that you want and need, even if they seem outlandish from a distribution standpoint, right? [00:29:28] Nicole Dziedzic: We wanna continue to make sure we’re meeting you guys where you are with what you need and how you wanna be interacted with. Um, so I think that would probably be my biggest thing. I do. Before we, I just wanna go back to the as PX data real quick. I do wanna give a plug on the as PX data, because I do work with all of our vendors within Ingram and, and I will say the data. [00:29:46] Nicole Dziedzic: Availability that you guys have released has been above and beyond what we’ve seen from most of our vendors. We hear a lot of can’t share that it’s legal, can’t share that it’s legal. Um, this really enables us and the MSPs to, to see not just where their customer needs to go, but where they’ve been. [00:30:04] Nicole Dziedzic: Right. And so how do you really frame a conversation that’s really strategic by leveraging data and data that will intake and be made available for everybody that, um, purchases through distribution so that you can have that ready at your hand. So I just wanna reverse back to that ’cause it is a really great data set, um, and something we don’t see a lot of vendors actually released to the masses within the partner community within distribution to leverage. [00:30:29] Erwin Visser: Yeah. I, I love that quote, by the way, but it’s, thank you, Nicole. Uh, so the, but, uh, uh, your question is around how we are enabling MSPs, correct? Yes. Yeah. Right. So I had the, um, there, there’s a, there’s a few things here. Uh, I think that, am I, if I’m being honest, there’s still some points that we need to improve on our technology and our roadmap Yeah. [00:30:53] Erwin Visser: Of our technology. So this is clearly well understood within Microsoft and there’s areas that we are, uh, that we’re working on and, uh, we’re taking very serious, uh, at this moment. Good. Uh, to help you like, manage, uh, uh, our technology across, uh, uh, significant numbers of, uh, of, of tenants. Um, the, the second thing I would say is that clearly we talked about scaling. [00:31:16] Erwin Visser: We talked about enabling, uh, added technology to help you build out your managed services from, I would say from the, the, or the, the infrastructure to security to also agents. Now with some of the new technology that we, uh, that we have released. The, the third thing, and this is maybe more of an ask to the MSPs, is that, uh, when I talk to MSPs, when I see the research, uh, I believe that still at this stage, uh, you mo uh, the average Ms. [00:31:44] Erwin Visser: P has like 30 different products in the technology stack. That’s crazy. And, uh, and so I, I simplify. Simplify. Yes, I understand how you got here. Uh, it’s a lot of like, uh, best of breed, maybe selection through, through history. But I think, uh, my advice to MSPs is like, if, if, if you wanna create space for selling business value and for building out like an an AI accelerator for your customers, you need to find a also space to simplify your technology stack. [00:32:15] Erwin Visser: ’cause that’s what we believe. That’s not where the, the opportunity sits in the future. Uh, and that’s also not where I think the, uh, the, the margin sits for, for our partners in the future. So simplify your technology stack. We have ideas about that simplification clearly, but, uh, happy to talk to you about it. [00:32:33] Erwin Visser: But, uh, yeah, simplify and then create space for, uh, for really selling business value with, uh, with agenda ai. I think that’s a, a huge opportunity. [00:32:42] Vince Menzione: There any last comments before we start? [00:32:44] Mira Ayad: Um, a very short comment. So from an enablement perspective, we have a very intentional, proactive focus on enabling the MSP and FY 27 and the remaining of FY 26. [00:32:55] Mira Ayad: Um, yes, last year was the year of the channel. I think next year is going to be the year of, uh, marketplace Channel and MSPs. Um, but I do have an ask. We build marketplace. For you and with you, and you are the closest to the customer. So please be the voice of the customer. Bring us that feedback. Let us know how we can build a marketplace that meets your customer needs so it makes your life easier instead of having to spend time figuring out how to incorporate marketplace in your strategy. [00:33:24] Vince Menzione: I love that we had Jose Gomez. K. Uh, with us yesterday and he spent a lot of time with the partners to getting that feedback, so it was wonderful. [00:33:32] Mira Ayad: Another big guy. [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: Thank you so much. [00:33:34] Vince Menzione: Thanks for listening to The Ultimate Partner Podcast. If today’s [00:33:38] Vince Menzione: conversation resonated, share it with a partner leader in your network. [00:33:42] Vince Menzione: Subscribe where you listen, and head over to the ultimate partner.com. For show notes related content and the resources for this episode. And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live Event in Reston, Virginia, October 26th through October 28th. Until next time, keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything.

The Macho Boys, Ped & Burk are fired up for this episode! Adam can't believe the omission he made from the Red Things draft. Sportscenter top 10 plays are still legit and the boys reminisce on peak Sportscenter days. The fellas discuss their back-to-school fashion and the riskiest fashion choices they ever made in school. In the meat, Mm!, of the episode, we draft rosters of all-time movie couples! Unreal draft. We close the show with the next big ASMR trend thanks to an iconic 90s fad. Hut Hut! Love y'all.

美債長端殖利率再度攀升，30 年期突破 5.2%。財政赤字、長債需求疑慮，加上 Jackson Hole 後偏鷹的政策預期，持續加重債市壓力。 本集邀請美國研究員 Ralice，從「債務占 GDP」公式拆解美國如何避免債務螺旋，包括發債結構改變、貨幣市場基金與穩定幣如何承接需求，以及中央清算、SRF 等制度改革。最後回到核心問題：美國能否靠經濟成長消化債務？

Host Jennie Nash talks with novelist and journalist Caroline Madden about why writers crave traditional publishing deals and how that desire can become an unhealthy obsession tied to external validation and “pick me” energy. Madden recounts a 20-year path to publication, including losing two agents and dying on submission, then changing her writing through Lisa Cron's Story Genius, Nash's Blueprint for a Book, and Donald Maass's Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook; her later two novels earned deals, including her debut The Marriage Vendetta (HarperCollins) and a forthcoming book. They discuss how redefining “why,” setting a bigger North Star (for Madden, contributing to feminist issues), releasing desperation, and defining success concretely can stabilize writers through rejection and shifting goalposts. Madden advises seeking blunt, market-informed feedback from industry professionals and emphasizes control through craft and writing rather than chasing validation.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned in this Episode* Story Genius by Lisa Cron* Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass* The Marriage Vendetta by Caroline MaddenBlueprint Courses

If you want to catch your BIG break then you have venture out into the deep. It's the only way. Click here for the MM donation link: https://checkout.square.site/merchant/D135FAXVEN2D7/checkout/Y67QJUO2WKX5JDCDGENK7UPU?src=sheet

This Friday's replay is my conversation with Eden Flora, an artist and registered art therapist in Oxford, Mississippi, whose collection-based approach to art has grown into a business built on teaching, licensing, and a lot of hard-won reinvestment. Eden walks through how her fabric design degree and her master's in art therapy from Pratt both shaped how she works today, how she builds a collection around an idea she's personally sitting with, and how art licensing, something she says almost nobody talks about, has quietly become a steady source of income. We also cover why she's shifted energy away from Instagram and into her email newsletter, Studio Scoop, why she hired a marketing consultant this year, and the M&M story from a high school science class that still guides how she reinvests in her business. Find Eden at edenwflora.com and on Instagram @edenwflora.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Kiera and Kristy share tips on having financial conversations with patients, including the type of mindset to adopt so it's not so intimidating, key language to use to get everyone on the same page, the power of a litmus test, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review       Kiera (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team   listeners. This is Kiera, and today's a lucky day. I'm so excited. I get one of my faves podcasting with me today. I get the one and only Kristy Treasure. If you don't know Kristy, she's one of our dynamite consultants and she just drives offices to success faster than most people I've ever met. She's absolutely dynamite. And today we're gonna be talking about how to have financial conversations with patients. This is right up her alley. Things she's obsessed about talking about. Kristy, welcome to the show. How are you today?   DAT- Kristy (00:26) Good, thank you. Pleasure pleasure to be here.   Kiera (00:29) I love it. Kristy, it's so fun to talk. You love talking all things money, numbers, metrics. Like that's your jam. How did you even get into numbers and metrics, Kristy? Like, walk us through for those of you who don't know Kristy, she was an office manager. She's been like every position in the practice. She grew this exponentially large practice. But for some reason, her niche is numbers. So, Kristy, how did you get into numbers? Like, why are you this like obsessive woman about numbers? How did that like passion and obsession come to be for you?   DAT- Kristy (00:56) It's so funny. I think at one time I actually thought about getting into accounting, but I never did. Yeah. But in the dental world, you know, really   Kiera (01:02) I could see it, I could see it.   DAT- Kristy (01:07) the numbers are really only a measure of how well we're taking care of our patients and getting them healthy. And so from the dental realm, you know, oral wellness is a passion of mine. Maybe I should have been a hygienist too in a different life. But with that being said, the numbers don't lie. And so   Kiera (01:25) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (01:26) the you know, being in OM and practice administration, it it was the guide to let me know if we were winning or not. And so it it's not so much about the number, but where is it trending, you know? And so being able sorry, Kiera, being able   Kiera (01:38) Mm-hmm. How do you no, no   DAT- Kristy (01:42) to give that back and have teams know where they stand too, I think is hugely important.   Kiera (01:49) So, how do you get teams on board with this? Like that was gonna be my follow-up when I was about to cut you off. Sorry on that. Like, I agree with you. It's ch it's shell, but how do you get your teams on board? Cause I think this is a common piece and a common like fear of offices is they don't want to tell their teams. They don't want their teams to talk about numbers. Doctors are afraid if teams look at numbers and they're gonna think they want to buy a new boat, which I'm like, go for it, buy the boat, like live your life. But how do you get teams on board to look at these numbers and doctors not to be afraid to share numbers with their with their teams?   DAT- Kristy (02:18) Yeah. I think first and foremost we start out by talking about why did we all get into dentistry? Because usually it's about caring for our patients. And Kiera, I think there's also a misunderstanding that just because a practice may be collecting six million dollars doesn't mean the practice is financially healthy. And so when teams understand there's numbers inside the practice and numbers outside of the practice, I think it helps them   understand and just like they have to manage their finances, you know, what's in the bank? How am I gonna pay my mortgage? Like getting them on board to understand that helps them also drive for the success. And I don't know, you've been in dentistry a long time too. And I truly haven't met a doctor that isn't willing to give back when the practice   Kiera (03:05) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (03:05) is profitable. So typically, you know, when teams are on board and we're rowing in the same direction for a goal, it's a win win.   Kiera (03:14) Yeah. I hope the doctors heard that. I hope the teams heard that of it is a win-win. It's a good way for us all to get aligned and be on the same page with each other. And like doctors, it is a business at the end of the day. And having a practice and having the numbers tell you, I love numbers because I feel like they're the non-emotional facts of the business. They're able to tell us, are we winning? Are we losing? It's just like a scoreboard in sports. Like it's up on the board. We know if that team is winning or if they're not winning.   and for us not to have like visibility into our business to know are we on track, are we off track? To me feels like what do we do when we're flying blind? Like I can't imagine a sports team like playing against each other and there's no score up on the board. It's just like hoops versus hoops. Like that's fun for a while, but the drive and the like, how do I protect my craft and how do I become a better player? And how do I know if we're actually playing as a team or we're just out here all open? Like those are the ways that you can actually see if you're winning or not. So   Kristy,   I'm gonna pivot us now to financial conversations with patients because it's all things money. We just gave you guys some tips on how you can talk to your teams about this, teams why you need to look at the numbers, how it is a scoreboard of the success of your practice. They don't lie. Every number tells a story, every number t ties to a system of what is broken, what can we improve, how can we improve it? It actually makes like your job easier as a team member because then we're not trying to solve the whole practice. We're just refining based on what the numbers are telling us.   So now pivoting that to patients, I think so many treatment coordinators, doctors, hygienists, like everyone in the practice is so scared to talk money with patients. So Kristy, like let's dig into that. How can people like what is that? Why are people afraid of this? Any tips on how we can have these financial conversations with patients?   DAT- Kristy (04:56) Yeah. I think first and foremost is understanding that, you know, we're in it to get patients healthy. And we   Kiera (05:04) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (05:04) all understand that if there's active infection going on, it's not gonna get any better than it is today. And so   Kiera (05:12) Right.   DAT- Kristy (05:13) coming from the you know, reframing our brains and coming from the space of taking us back to why we got into dentistry and caring for people, their oral health   equates to their overall health. And if we can get them healthy as quickly as possible, all the better. But I also like to tell my teams, we play the healthcare advocate, but it's always in the patient's hands. So when we can put it back to the patients and say, you know, I'm here for you. And truly this is your journey. You get to be in the driver's seat. And we're going to do this in your timeframe.   And within your budget. It takes that pressure off and it really makes it a relational thing. And we can be the guide to getting them healthy.   Kiera (06:03) That's amazing. And I think Kristy, as you said that, like it's just a reframe, right? Like I think we have the reframe right now. Like you you're telling yourself a story. You're telling yourself a story of, like people have to pay money and it's uncomfortable and they w but there's also another story of we're doing this amazing service and they're paying for a great service, just like Kristy. You used to cut hair. Like people, you give a good haircut, people want to pay you for a great and they even tip you.   Like no one has tipped me in my career for not sucking up their uvula. I would love to have a tip jar. Like you're welcome patients. I didn't suction that up. but like they want to, they want to pay for a service. And I think in dentistry we get kind of weird because like we are in healthcare and when we go to the doctor, but like never once have I ever gone to the doctor and been like, I'm just not gonna pay for it. Like, I know I have a copay, I know I have this.   And so I think for us to reframe it of we've done great dentistry, we've done a great service. People naturally know, like when I go to the grocery store, I buy groceries. When I get my haircut, I pay for my haircut. When I go to the dentist, I pay for my cleaning. I pay for my my care. Like that's what I pay for. And so I I love that you talk about Kristy of like this is just why we're even in dentistry. We did this to get patients back to health. We're here to serve.   I think that there's this space of having confidence in who you are and not being afraid of asking for money. Like it's okay. You did great work. You brought them back to health. Like you did something amazing for them. They are more than happy. It's the gift of reciprocity. And that worked so hard for me. But when we've done something good, people naturally, as a byproduct, want to pay for it. and so helping us, like you said, let's just do a reframe. Like, what if for the next week everybody in our practice just thought like every patient wants to pay us?   Like I promise you, it will be that you've just like activated that and you'll start to see more patients want to pay you. More patients are not having financial conversations of issues with you. It's not a conversation, like they're not rejecting you. They just want like they're just asking questions. And I think we often take those questions as rejection rather like it's confrontation rather than just conversations.   DAT- Kristy (08:11) Yeah, I love that you say that, Kiera. And I tell teams every day, number one, when you take a step back and figure out why are they here, because we all know every single patient walks in and what do they say? I hate coming to the dentist. And I'm thinking to myself, there is nobody standing outside this door with, you know, holding a gun to you saying, You have to go to the dentist. So they're   Kiera (08:32) Mm.   DAT- Kristy (08:33) here for a reason and we just need to figure out what that reason is. People's motivation can be different, you know.   We talk about wellness, longevity, cosmetic, right? And the last one on that list that we tend to shy away from is the cost. But every   Kiera (08:47) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (08:50) day I tell my teams, it truly doesn't matter if it's 6,000 or 60,000. I know I maybe exaggerated that a little bit, but it's about fitting it in their budget and finding them away. So when you take that pressure off yourself and realize we're tying it back to what they really walked in the door for.   and help them again as that guide to getting what they want. Truly the money is just about finding a way to fit it in their budget. And if we have the tools in our tool belt to do that, it makes it so easy.   Kiera (09:23) Mm-hmm. Well, and like you said, Kristy, it's it's just finding the solution, right? Everything we want in life, we figure it out. We find a way. Like people want to buy a car, so what do they do? They figure out how to pay for it. It's just tying it back to something that they want, need, and deserve. I will throw that like and deserve. I think so many patients don't feel like they deserve, they deserve to have a healthy mouth. They deserve to get this beautiful smile back. And I think actually like   Our   mouths are slightly hidden and they can be hidden. Like you can keep your mouth more closed. You don't have to smile in photos. but the confidence that you have to be able to be unapologetically smiley and to have confidence in your teeth and your smile and your breath and your health and all of that is a gift that I don't think that we realize because in dentistry we just do this day in, day out. but I was the girl who had my smile completely obliterated by someone in my life, and I didn't have that confidence anymore.   And I know what it feels like to be able to speak with confidence and to have my smile perfect and to speak where you don't feel as confident. And I will say that people might give you the push of finance at the top. And I just want to say, like, whenever, like to me, I don't know how you feel, Kristy. To me, objections are just a way for me, like, I haven't educated them enough. And there's just a question. That's all an objection is, is it's just a a a question packaged in a different way. So someone's like, it's cost. I'm like, fantastic. Let's talk about that.   Like, why am I taking this as you don't like me? Like we can make this up all day long, but instead it's just them giving me information. My job is to find the solution with them. There's always a solution. Let's talk about it. And I will promise you, every single one of you listening, and Kristy, you know this just as well as I do, it will never be cheaper or more predictable than it is today. So if it is cost, high five is the best day of your life because we get to make it like the most cost effective we possibly can.   We wait longer in dentistry, it just gets more expensive. That's how it works, that's how it operates. And also, like we lose our options and our our choice the longer we wait. And so let's take care of it now. Let's get it taken care of. And really, like you said, Kristy, they're here at the dentist. Like they chose to come. There's a reason they're here. So I think for us, like, I feel like thinking about cost as an objection is just a pair of sunglasses of a filter you choose to put on. And I'm like, what if I put on the filter of   Every patient wants to say yes to me today. What if I put on the filter of everyone's here and they want to get something done today? What if I put on the filter of everybody has like finances? I'm gonna help them find the way to make this like fit within their budget. I feel we get to choose these pairs of sunglasses, aka filters every day when we walk into the office. And for a lot of you, you might be picking up this like, people don't like insurance, people have this. Like, you're choosing to put on the black sunglasses, the dark gray sunglasses, the brown sunglasses.   Well, there's a whole other pair of sunglasses of yellow and green and pink and purple that are brighter, that are lighter, that are also available for you. And I don't think that that's just like Mary Poppins over here skipping through life. I know it's an actual fact because treatment planning and presenting and talking about finances is 80% the what you think about, 20% skill. It's not   DAT- Kristy (12:31) Yeah.   Kiera (12:31) the reverse. And I think so many people think it's 80% skill, 20% like how you think.   Kristy, break that down. Do you agree with that? 'Cause I do, but that could be Kiera's like la la land over here that I live in.   DAT- Kristy (12:41) Yeah, no, I 1000% agree with you. I'm I'm gonna age myself a little bit here, Kiera, because I remember when I first got into dentistry, crowns were three hundred and eighty-five dollars at the office hours. And yeah, I mean yeah, a hundred percent, right? But   Kiera (12:51) my gosh. It's okay. How much were haircuts, Kristy?   DAT- Kristy (12:59) with that, you know, the same patients that today when you say fifteen hundred dollars for a crown, they said the same thing back then. It's so expensive.   Kiera (13:08) Yep.   DAT- Kristy (13:09) And you said something earlier.   My favorite comeback is you are worth it. You are   Kiera (13:14) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (13:15) worth it. I I literally maybe only had one person ever tell me, No, I'm not. I'm gonna die tomorrow. But I said, But you're gonna die with a healthy smile, right? And you know, truly people will go spend three thousand dollars on a couch and not bad an eye. So   Kiera (13:29) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (13:30) when you turn it about them and what they really came in for, what they want, and find that solution to get them.   It it's just a win win and it's so rewarding as a treatment coordinator to have that relationship with the patient because once you do it one time, they come back to you, they look for you, they know your name, they know you're gonna help them get what what they want in the end.   Kiera (13:54) Mm-hmm. You're exactly right. And I think Kristy, like so many people don't realize that they're worth it. And like you said, like people are willing to shell out money left and right. Like it's wild. I don't know if people have seen the memes, they or the reels. They make me giggle when it's like the patient who's asking for the discount and they're driving like all these amazing, like beautiful cars, huge house. And I like to me that just like that cracks the code of our limiting beliefs.   Their beliefs   DAT- Kristy (14:19) Yeah.   Kiera (14:20) that we've chosen to pick up. Like I feel like they're pebbles in my pocket, their beliefs in my pocket. What beliefs am I putting in? Because it's a lot of times like I'm I'm projecting, I'm putting my own assumptions on other people when that's not real. I have a friend going through a pretty severe medical situation and we were talking about it. And one of our other friends was just like a hot mess express. And my friend was like who's going through the actual medical issue, she's like, That friend's projecting on me. Like   I actually don't feel any of that. But that friend saying, like, I'm sure you're so scared, or I'm sure you're so this or that. And she's like, I'm none of those, but she's projecting on me. And I think going into our financial pieces, how many times are we projecting our own limiting beliefs? Like you might think that Starbucks is expensive, but for someone, Starbucks is just part of their daily budget. Like that's that's that's just it's like brushing our teeth. They don't even bat an eye at it. Like you said, they're willing to drop money on a couch, they're willing to do this. It's the value of what people value. And so   For me, it'd be another question of how can you create more value of dentistry? I will tell you as a girl who's had her smile be available and not available, it is one of the greatest gifts you can ever give a patient. And maybe that's why I'm so like passionate about this topic, is because I'm like, I know what that feels like to not feel confident, to not feel like your smile is your own, to not feel comfortable talking to people, to not like I'm modeled for half of my life. Like, you want to believe like.   I I very uncomfortable in my own skin. And so to have that taken away and stripped away is something that I feel we don't if you've never had that taken away from you, you don't even know the gift you're able to give somebody, but I do. And so it's like, let's give that value of the health, like whatever it is. For some people, it's health. For some people, it's guys, I want to look really good in my coffin. Like I'm not gonna lie to you. I am such a vain human. Like I want my teeth to be pretty. I want to look gorgeous. I'd be your 90-year-old, like getting like veneers, braces.   Please don't limit that because you wouldn't pay for it. Like, if that's not your job, but your job is to present it to me. Your job is to find solutions with me. And your job is to help me see the value and what this is. And like Kristy said, to show me that I'm worth it, that I'm deserving of that. And that I agree, Kristy, is the best comeback. Like, no person is going to deny that. And that's probably one of the few places that they've heard that they're worth this treatment. And I also just want to break down like such a limiting belief.   Dentistry, we think is so expensive. Like when you said $1,500, I'm do you want to know how much it is to get Scorpion anti-venom serum? Like that stuff is like, I think it's $10,000 a teeny tiny vial. And you have to have three of those minimum. That's $30,000. That's expensive. Like, let's please put into like the scale of expense. Like medical   DAT- Kristy (17:01) Mm-hmm.   Kiera (17:01) bills are very expensive. $1,500 for a crown that's gonna last you for the next, I don't know, five, 10, 15 years.   That is a very low cost to be able to eat great subsidence for our body. Like, so again, please just please just also put that out there. There's financing options. You can do care credit. You can have other things. Please don't give them a smorgasborg. Like less is more. Let's make decisions very easy for them. Like, are we doing personal savings or do we want to talk financing options? Like, don't project and dump on them. Like let them choose from what it is. Perfect. Let's talk through this. Let's see where we're at. Let's come up with solutions that way you can afford this.   But I'm not going to project that onto them. I'm going to make them ask the questions. And I'm going to assume that they freaking just want dentistry done. Like, why not assume that? Like, I know this sounds so silly and Kristy and I are having a good giggle over here. But Kristy, I really think it's that black and white. Like you said, no one forces person to come to the dentist. They're at the dentist. They clearly want something done. Let's just find the solution to help them get it done. And to be confident and to assume they want to do that, finding the solutions, building the value, teaching them that they are worth it.   And   then putting on those sunglasses of those filters of that you're able you're able to get the dentistry done and let's just find the solution together. Those are my thoughts, Kristy. What are yours? I know this is my rant.   DAT- Kristy (18:17) Yeah, I agree with you, Kiera.   Yeah. I 100% agree with you. And I also challenge people to start at the comprehensive level. Cause many times we tap our patients out. We we say, we're gonna scare them with the number. We don't wanna like show everything up front. And we'll just find a financial solution for this first phase. Sometimes you tap them out and they never come back for the rest. So again, if we put our advocate hat on and we go with the intent, like   purely in our heart. Our intent is to get you healthy and well. If you start at the hole, you can always go backward, but it's really hard to start with one tooth or one procedure and then go up comprehensively. I'll never forget, Kiera, the day I had a elderly lady come up and tell me about her fixed budget. I'm sure we've all heard those, right? And she had to have four   Kiera (19:07) Yes.   DAT- Kristy (19:09) crowns, one in every quadrant. And I was like, boy, how am I gonna fit this in $200 a month?   And you know, in the long run, I would have been better to find a solution to fix all four than to just start with the broken one. Because literally one month later, after we found the solution for the one, all I was doing was eating bread. Kristy and I was like, gosh, what am I gonna do? It's gonna be another payment,   Kiera (19:31) Mm.   DAT- Kristy (19:34) you know? So I also challenge people start at the hole and work backward. Cause again   As a advocate, our job is to help them get healthy. And if we can do it quicker, why would we not? You know, then   Kiera (19:49) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (19:49) then we've achieved and I always like to use a litmus test. What's best for the practice, best for the patient? If you can answer   Kiera (19:55) Mm-hmm. I agree.   DAT- Kristy (19:56) yes to that, we've done well.   Kiera (19:58) Mm-hmm. And I think people often get a little funny on that. And they think, like, if it's best for the practice, then it's not best for the patient. And I'm like, no, there is a world where it's both. It's an and, not an or. It's best for both of us. It's best for each other. And I just I agree with you, Kristy. I throw this out of I do believe it's our moral obligation to tell patients really what's going on, not what we think   DAT- Kristy (20:20) Mm-hmm.   Kiera (20:20) they want to hear. Like I would be so angry, and I am still angry. Do you know how many hygienists never offered me fluoride?   Like I'm still angry about it to this day because I'm like, that's the most proactive preventative thing that I can ever do for my mouth. And you chose because you didn't think I'd want it or you was afraid to talk money to me, that you never offered it to me. Like, how many other times do we just not offer to people that we don't tell them what's really going on? Like you said, give them the comprehensive plan. Now, with that said, dentists, when you're doing a comprehensive plan, please don't   Don't talk so many words that they get lost. And there's there's an art of being comprehensive and using it in patient jargon that they can understand. So being very clear of perfect, here's everything going on. Your next visit's going to be this. This is when I want to see you back. Like this is the whole plan for treatment coordinators. Here's the whole plan. We're going to start with phase one. We're going to schedule out phase one, phase two, phase three, phase four. Like, let's make it very simple for them. Please don't get into the like.   All right, we're gonna do like seven crowns and it's gonna take 17 hours. Like they they don't need to know all that. They just need to know like where do we start? What's what does what does complete look like? also when they know about what the total is going to be, but also that we're able to break it down if they need to. Like, let's break it down. We're we're gonna do this in chunks. I do the same thing with implants, like our implants are 25, 70 grand. Like we have an office that does 150,000 per like full mouth, so it's 75,000 per arch.   some of you might be listening, like, my gosh, like, yes, guys, this is real. Like they really can do this. And they really do. And they have several patients that say yes to them. Again, I think it's your value. I think it's your confidence. I want people to realize they're buying your confidence. So you being confident in your treatment planning where you're doing it out of moral obligation and what's ultimately best for the patient. Patients trust, they believe, and they know you're genuine. That's how this doctor's able to charge 75 grand per arch for doing it.   He's a phenomenal dentist. Like I would trust him too. I'd pay for him over several others that are much cheaper than him. People, there are some that want to go for the cheapest. but I think that most people, when they look at their mouths, they recognize that it is an investment. They recognize that it is a and I think if you can present it that way and you can show them that this is long term preventative for you and it's long term care for you. I think people are able to see that. It's much better than even like your couch analogy. Couches like wear out.   And you have to replace them. Your teeth do   DAT- Kristy (22:42) Sure.   Kiera (22:43) wear out, but they have a lot longer lifespan on them than others. So, Kristy, I think it's a brilliant way to talk about comprehensive as well.   DAT- Kristy (22:50) thank you. And you know, true truly, Kiera, it it is an investment in their health. And I hope that and I challenge people to even speak that way, you know, use use power words instead of out of pocket. And I always share with my teams, like I literally see a guy with his pocket hanging out. Like   Kiera (23:07) Right.   DAT- Kristy (23:08) you're sending a negative connotation. Say, you know, and and the total is this.   Kiera (23:14) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (23:15) It's an investment into your health, you know.   Kiera (23:17) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (23:18) And   I'm here to find a solution with you. So I I love it. It it definitely is a passion. And like I said, when you can meet the patient where they are, find what they want and tie it back, it's always a win. I was gonna share with you when you were talking earlier, you and people don't forget about the cosmetic things, just like the fluoride. I'm with you, Kiera. I don't have a problem with decay, but if they don't offer me, I'm not coming back because I feel like you haven't really treated me, you know. But I was   Kiera (23:46) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (23:47) gonna share.   My mother-in-law, she was playing cards and she had always come to the office that I worked at. And and one day she left and came back for the hygienist because she loved the hygienist. And doctor comes in my office like, and I'm like, What? You never offered, you never asked her. She had this bright, sparkly front bridge, and nobody ever stopped, even when they got her healthy, to say, Hey, what you're doing at home's great. Now's the time to ask.   Is there anything you'd like to change about the shape, size, and color for your teeth? So going back to what you said, it's our job to share the possibilities. And again, it takes the pressure off of us because the patient's always in the driver's seat. They get to say   Kiera (24:30) Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (24:30) yes or no. And it's okay.   Kiera (24:32) Mm-hmm. Kristy, I love that. I love that it's why are we not sharing more? I think people are so afraid that you're going to overwhelm. And I'm like, whatever you think is what people will feel. So if you think you're   DAT- Kristy (24:43) Mm-hmm.   Kiera (24:44) going to overwhelm them, you're going to overwhelm them. If you think you're pushing on them, you're going to. There is another pair of sunglasses, aka filter, if you want to. Like Kristy said, like, give them the options. Do you know how many people I wish would just fix my lateral for me? Like now, all of you are going to look at it. Don't worry. I'm taking contributions. You want to like.   Fix my ortho for me. I will happily be your patient. No one talks to me about it. Cause they assume Kiera's teeth are beautiful. She works in dentistry. I do love my teeth, but I would love to just do a slight correction on that, but no one asks. And so again, like talking to them about possibilities, just letting them know like patients in the driver's seat, they don't have to, but if they never know what it is, right? To me, it's almost like dreams and goals and and big ideas.   The reason we achieve things is because we've seen them from someone else. We've seen that someone has the house or the car or the life or the kids or the nanny or the healthy fitness or the whatever it is. We've all seen somebody that has it and therefore we want to achieve it. If we don't even know it exists and we don't know it's a possibility, guess what? They'll be talking to their friends and then they come back and they're like, Dr. Johns did my like whole mouth. And you're like, Well, we do that too. You didn't choose to share. So when it comes to finances, when it comes to talking these things, I think my whole overarching thing is like,   Let's put on the filters and assume the best. Let's share with people. Kristy, it was absolutely a fantastic podcast. There were so many nuggets in here. Kristy, you're so easy for me to podcast with because you and I just have so much passion for it. So we just rally. But Kristy, I just want to say thank you for sharing your perspectives. And I hope everybody picks up one or two nuggets, one or two perspectives, one or two beliefs, and you implement today. You can sit here all day long. You might have heard this before, but you can pick up one of these tools, try it out today, try it on for size, like get a little uncomfortable in the in the new realm.   And try it out because I promise you, those patients need you, they're coming to you, they trust you, and you have a moral obligation to help and serve them. Kristy, any last thoughts as we wrap up today?   DAT- Kristy (26:35) No, the only thing I say is please share your wins. We want to hear your stories.   Kiera (26:39) Absolutely.   Reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com if you need help getting your team on board. Kristy's a freaking dynamite, amazing at doing this. Our consulting team is absolutely incredible. So reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. As always, thank you, Kristy. Thank you all. Thanks for listening. And I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

The restoration and rerelease of Unzipped—the ur-fashion documentary— with Janus this September has had the Vogue office abuzz for months. Ahead of its run in theaters The Run-Through co-host Nicole Phelps—who says the film was her “gateway drug to fashion,” met with inimitably charming Isaac Mizrahi, designer, performer, the film's star and since June 2026, Target's first Creative Director at Large, to talk supermodels, and not mixing work with love—or Ambien.   “It was a very good moment in fashion,” conjectures Mizrahi about the continuing draw of the film. “I bet if you had substituted some other fabulous, funny people in that movie, it would've been good. Mm. You know? It was just a good moment. But specifically in my oeuvre, it was almost inevitable to tell a story of that kind, because I don't know if their fittings were as hilarious as my fittings, you know? …  I think that's another thing, the interaction of [those women, those supermodels, and these designers. You know, it really was, it was photogenic. You know, the camera really loved this subject.”  Nonetheless, Mizrahi has more of a bird's-eye perspective on the impact of Unzipped than most of the rest of the world. “So as to Unzipped and it changing my life, you know, I don't really feel it changed my life,” he said. Mizrahi identifies his transition from yeshiva to the Performing Arts High School as one of the tipping points  in his life. Another was landing a job at Perry Ellis. “I have to tell you, my dear, that was an incredibly inspiring place and it would've changed anybody.”  Unzipped had a similar effect on fashion documentaries, setting a bar that has rarely been reached since.  The Run-Through with Vogue is your go-to podcast where fashion meets culture. Hosted by Chloe Malle, Head of Editorial Content, Vogue U.S.; Chioma Nnadi, Head of British Vogue; and Nicole Phelps, Director of Vogue Runway, each episode features the latest fashion news and exclusive designer and celebrity interviews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Beth and Kelly are hoping the title alone will launch Strange Country into a culture war or at least get you to listen. In today's episode, Beth and Kelly are joined by in-house artist expert Terry to talk about an early culture war focused on government funding of the arts. In 1989, Andres Serrano's photograph of a crucifix immersed in a tank of his own urine ignited a culture war. And culture wars continue to rage to this day, leading some to ponder such enduring issues like whether woke made the girl M&M less sexy. Theme music: Big White Lie by A Cast of Thousands. Cite your sources: Ansar, Hibah. "Revisiting the NEA Four: Free Speech Battles in the Arts." ACLU, 8 September 2025, https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/revisiting-the-nea-four-free-speech-battles-in-the-arts. Accessed 18 August 2026.   Butler, Isaac. The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, and the Birth of America's Culture Wars. Bloomsbury USA, 2026.   Cantor, Matthew. "'A proxy for America's culture war': why Cracker Barrel's new logo sparked ire on the right." The Guardian, 28 August 2025, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/28/cracker-barrel-logo-trump. Accessed 23 August 2026.   Hagan, Lisa, and Jeff Brady. "Gas stoves became part of the culture war in less than a week. Here's why." NPR, 21 January 2023, https://www.npr.org/2023/01/21/1150397853/gas-stoves-became-part-of-the-culture-war-in-less-than-a-week-heres-why. Accessed 23 August 2026.   Hogan, Joseph, director. When Art Fuels Anger, Who Should Prevail? 2023. Retro Report, https://retroreport.org/video/when-art-fuels-anger-who-should-prevail/. Accessed 17 August 2026. Serrano, Andres. "2022 GIA Conference: Andres Serrano" Grantmakers in the Arts, Keynote address, YouTube, uploaded by Grantmakers in the Arts, 10 October 2022, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P9rGvqa03M&t=30s Smith, David. "'People are picking the dumbest fights': the tortured history of America's culture wars." The Guardian, 15 July 2026, https://www.theguardian.com/books/2026/jul/15/culture-wars-isaac-butler-interview. Accessed 23 August 2026.   Walker, Michael Wingfield. "Artistic F tistic Freedom v eedom v. Censorship: The Aftermath of the NEA . Censorship: The Aftermath of the NEA's New Funding Restrictions." Washington University Law Review, vol. 71, no. 3, 1993, p. 21. Washington University Law Review, https://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1800&context=law_lawreview. Accessed 18 August 2026.    

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee is going Beneath the Surface — with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. Both artists have been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho — stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing. Masaki Fujihata — a pioneer in new media art.And here's what they have in common: they've both shifted with the times… but never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them changed. Listen in to APEX Express   Check out: BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18, 2026—Sunday, December 27, 2026 Masaki Fujihata website Choligarchy at Berkeley Rep, September 15-19th, 2026  Margaret Cho website Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges at Oakland Asian Cultural Center, September 11, 2026 7pm Artists featured: arjun-verma.com www.pezhham.com  MazdakAlipour.com emanhashimi.com   Show Transcripts [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:34] Miko Lee: Tonight on Apex Express, I'm going beneath the surface with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. I'm your host, Miko Lee.   [00:00:57] These are two artists who've been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho, stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing, and Masaki Fujihata, a pioneer in new media art. And here's what they have in common. They've both shifted with the times, but they never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them have changed. So stick with me. First up, my conversation with Margaret Cho   [00:01:29] Welcome Margaret Cho to Apex Express.    [00:01:32] Margaret Cho: Thank you.    [00:01:34] Miko Lee: I wanna start with my question I ask most of my guests, which is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:01:41] Margaret Cho: I think my people are Asian American, my people are queer, my people are all ages, my people are progressive, my people have hope for the future. That's what I'm hoping. I think that's it, and that's who I am too.    [00:01:56] Miko Lee: Thank you. You started stand-up so young in this very Bay Area, and I think you started at age 14. I'm wondering what's your earliest childhood memory of being a performer?    [00:02:08] Margaret Cho: My earliest childhood memory of being a performer was I was actually a singer. I was a singer in a band of children, and I was probably maybe five years old. We were on a show on KTVU. I believe it was called Asia Now, and it was filming in the studio and I wouldn't stop waving at my mother, who was just off camera. And after the performance the band leaders asked me not to come back. Aw. I remember that because I could not stop waving at my mother and so I kept breaking that fourth wall. That was my first memories of performance.   [00:02:47] Miko Lee: And what did that feel like to you?    [00:02:50] Margaret Cho: I didn't really get the idea. I didn't really understand television exactly quite. I didn't understand why we were performing. I didn't understand why I couldn't say hi to my mother while I was performing. I didn't have a real comprehension of like even like rejection of what that meant or even performance or what that meant or television. So all these things that I come to learn about very well, rejection, performance, and television is my whole life. But back then I didn't understand the importance of all those things.    [00:03:22] Miko Lee: But there must've been some kind of zhuzh for you that you said, “Ooh, I wanna keep doing this,” right?    [00:03:28] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I think so. Much later though, you know, I did perform as a pianist. I was a classical pianist. I was also a ballet dancer. So those things required performance, which actually would make me really, really nervous, I think because in piano you're playing a classical piece. You're playing Beethoven, you're playing Mozart. So if you make a mistake, everybody's gonna know. Also with ballet you're choreographed and you're in as a troupe. If you're doing choreography with a bunch of other people- If you make a mistake, everybody's gonna know. But with comedy, mistakes are a little bit more of, something you can gloss over a bit. There's a little more control there, a little more room for chaos, which I absolutely need, I think, as a performer.   [00:04:22] Miko Lee: Mm, this is interesting. You've already described some of the different types of performance that you do, and you've also done so many things in your life. But I'm wondering if there is a type of art form that still makes you nervous.    [00:04:34] Margaret Cho: Music. I think playing an instrument in front of people, I think because when I was a child and would perform these recitals, I would be so nervous. There were a couple of times in recitals where I had to start over, you know? When you're, like, eight or nine years old and you make a mistake and have to start over, and this audience is, like, hundreds of people, it's, like, really mortifying. I still carry that. I play m- numerous instruments, and I really dread playing them in public. What helped me a little bit is busking, which I did quite a lot of over, over the years because when you're playing out on the street, there's a… I don't know. It's like people are not really paying attention to you, and therefore you're kind of in this divide of I'm in performance, but I'm also kind of not. So that helped. In general, I refrain nowadays from when I do music, I don't usually play my instrument along with the band. I usually just focus on singing. Even that is quite nerve-wracking. Singing and doing music still, even though I've been doing it really my whole life, there is something about it that, that quite, um… because when you're singing, you're actually also the instrument. So there's a bit of more required. That's why I always prefer comedy. Your quality of voice doesn't matter because the music you're making doesn't have to sound pleasing.    [00:05:59] Miko Lee: And when you were busking, what instrument were you playing?   [00:06:02] Margaret Cho: Guitar. Ah. So I would play guitar, sometimes a six-string banjo, sometime, I'd play all manner of sort of guitar-necked instruments, which can go from, guitar to mandolin to a cello that's, it has a guitar neck, so I can play- Ah that as well. So all those things, I cheat at everything 'cause I have a guitar neck.    [00:06:21] Miko Lee: I love that. The improv just comes out of you in all different ways, I guess.    [00:06:27] Margaret Cho: Yeah.   [00:06:27] Miko Lee: So you have been a path maker, rule breaker in so many aspects of your life, from comedy obviously, and producing and starring in the first Asian American TV show, actor, fashion maven, author, rapper, podcast host, and out and proud queer role model. I'm wondering, what's a career dream that you aspire to?    [00:06:46] Margaret Cho: Ooh, well, I wanna be an old lady crime show, like Murder She Wrote. I wanna just solve crimes. I love, like, a British crime show, like an old lady solving crime. Like a Prime Suspect, like a Helen Mirren. I love that kind of genre of television, and so I would love to mature in that 'cause, like, it's so interesting and also so rich and, I feel really drawn to it. So that's something that I haven't… I'm a participant in a lot of those types of shows. I'm on a show called Bull Trent, which is very much that, which is really cool. And then I've been on Law & Order, which is the ultimate, SVU is the ultimate sort of crime show. So I would love to engage in that genre more.   [00:07:31] Miko Lee: Ooh, are you developing that on your own?    [00:07:34] Margaret Cho: I'm not, but I am participating in lots of other people's versions of it. They're not out yet, so they will be coming, forthcoming.    [00:07:44] Miko Lee: Coming soon, and then your own version starring you. Yes. The- Yeah … modern Murder She Wrote. I would love it. In what town would this be? In San Francisco or in-    [00:07:53] Margaret Cho: Oh, San Francisco would be great. Yeah. San Francisco or, like, Marin.    [00:07:56] Miko Lee: Oh, God. That would be really funny.    [00:07:58] Margaret Cho: Sausalito. Sausalito would be so fun. You know, Napa Valley. You know, something, like, very, like, th- this community that looks very, like Saint Helena, like Calistoga, s- community that's very quaint and peaceful and, like, kind of like foodie oriented and, like, very, you, you know, you think very upscale, but actually there's a lot of dirty dealings going on underneath the surface.   [00:08:20] Miko Lee: The wine country Murder She Wrote.    [00:08:23] Margaret Cho: Yes, I love it.    [00:08:24] Miko Lee: I would watch that. That's fun. So you also have expressed your art in so many ways. Your body is filled with so many tattoos. I think you have over 70. Which of your tattoos evokes the strongest emotion for you?    [00:08:38] Margaret Cho: Well, right now I'm in this, like, trend only getting art from Korean artists, and these are guys. People from Korea who are tattooing now are really the best in the world. They are the state of the art. Like, their eye and their talent is just so innovative. There it's semi-illegal, so they do it under duress, you know, and they have to sort of do all these different things to do it. But their ability to just visualize things that are just, that seemed impossible, you know, these miracles on skin that they can do. The art now I'm really resonating with. There's an artist now that works exclusively in Dancheong, which is a kind of the color scheme of Korean temple art. And so all of his tattooing reflects that. And so I'm working on a very, very large piece on my leg that is, all Dancheong, which you know, for me, like having had lots of different kinds of tattoo, like I had sort of Japanese traditional and a lot of American traditional, and a lot of just kind of different kinds of art. Now to just really delve into the art of my ancestors is quite powerful, and by being done by very young, very skilled tattoo artists from Korea. You know, so I get to speak in Korean to them. We communicate in a language that is shared, that's ours, which is very different from the way that I've communicated with all of the other artists that I've had over my time as a tattooed person. So, um, yeah, tattooing for me, it's, it's all about Korea right now.    [00:10:21] Miko Lee: And what inspired your first tattoo?    [00:10:25] Margaret Cho: My first tattoo was done by Don Ed Hardy, who is a legendary Bay Area tattooer, also, an amazing guy and he was a friend of the employees of my father, who, my father owned Paperback Traffic, which is his gay bookstore just going in the 1970s. And so a lot of people were getting tattooed by Don Ed Hardy. They were getting full body suits in the '70s and '80s, and the, the, um, images, like, so on our refrigerator as a… When I was a child, my father would put up, um, the full body tattoos of these guys that worked for him. So that's what I would see every day. Instead of, like, our graded papers or, like, stuff that you usually have on a refrigerator, it was photographs of completely tattooed people. Um, and that really stayed with me. And so when I was ready to be tattooed, and this is, like, 2002, um, my father's employees and all of our, like, old friends took me down to see Don Ed Hardy, who was doing these body suits, and, he gave me my very, very first very large Japanese-inspired piece on my stomach and back. And that kind of started it off. I got the most painful, most difficult place in your body tattooed first, which is, like, basically your stomach, and your sternum, your chest. All those areas are really, like, those are the worst, and I got that over with. And so I realized, oh, I could actually keep on doing this. And I always knew that I would be heavily tattooed because of that.   [00:11:59] Miko Lee: So your first one you chose really big, not just like a small something. You got a really big one.    [00:12:03] Margaret Cho: Yeah.    [00:12:04] Miko Lee: Wow. Yeah. Just jump in, girl. Just jump in.    [00:12:07] Margaret Cho: Well, I just knew that was right, and I knew also this was probably, like, the only time that I would be able to get a very large piece from Don Ed Hardy, you know? Yeah. People know him, of course, from the clothing line- That's right … and the sort of Y2K influence. But he is so much more than that. His influence on tattooing is really significant. That was towards the end of his tattooing career. He didn't have many years where he kept doing it after, 'cause he explained to me that he absorbs the pain of people. Wow. And so he realized, like, that probably wasn't so good for him physically as he aged, I was really lucky to get what I got from him, which is a very, very large piece and a very important piece.   [00:12:51] Miko Lee: Amazing. And as you're talking about your childhood and growing up in the bookstore, it just makes me reflect on how your childhood was so unique and so interesting. Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering if today you were to make a television show about your childhood, how very different… With, with more artistic freedom. It would be so fun. It would be so fascinating. There's so many more streaming options than just the three networks that we grew up with. Yeah. So, what would that be like for you to do a TV show on your childhood now?    [00:13:23] Margaret Cho: I would love it. I mean, I would love to create that world, recreate that world, because, you know, we had the influence of, like, people who were doing a lot of very early body modification, meaning these full, full body tattoos, and, like, body piercing, which was such a different thing. I mean, in the 1970s we had the rise of Harvey Milk you know, and his assassination.    [00:13:44] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:13:44] Margaret Cho: We also had the devastation of the People's Temple, which was all San Francisco people.    [00:13:50] Miko Lee: Yep, yep.    [00:13:51] Margaret Cho: It happened in Guyana, people don't realize this originated in San Francisco and came from there. All the people who died were San Franciscans, and Oakland, Bay Area people. This is our people. My parents actually rented the recently vacated People's Temple for my grandparents' 50th wedding anniversary. Wow. Like, crossing the police tape. To go in and have a Korean party, and then my mother's, “Lot of ghosts.” She saw all the ghosts.   [00:14:19] Miko Lee: Yeah, I'm sure.   [00:14:21] Margaret Cho: “Ghosts, ghosts, lot of ghosts. Well, ghosts don't really do anything. They just make food get cold very fast.” You know, like that kind of a thing. So it would be a great TV show, I think.    [00:14:32] Miko Lee: Ugh, I would watch that too. We're talking about your new show, Choligarchy, which is gonna be at Berkeley Rep, and I read that you said it brings you back to your roots as a political comedian. Can you share more about this?    [00:14:44] Margaret Cho: Well, I had the luxury of the Obama administration where I didn't feel like I had to fight so hard to be heard and seen as a queer Asian American woman, 'cause I worked on the Obama campaign, I worked on, getting people registered to vote in 2008 in Philadelphia. I worked on all these different things with Cal Penn in 2008 to assure a kind of future where we are gonna have something different, and then we did. And then so I got to spend about eight years where I could do dance, I could do music, I could kinda like drift into these other arenas of work that I hadn't been able to do because, before, had been, like, so much about fighting the Bush administration, so much about fighting what was going on. So now to be able to return to a thing that I'm very used to, like political commentary, where I'm really focused on using my voice to affect change and to create change, and it's really profound, you know? I love doing this show. It's got me thousands and thousands of death threats, which is also really terrifying and bizarre. I've always had a kind of very confrontational relationship with conservatives, but now it's escalated to the point of, like, oh, I actually do fear for my safety. But I think that it's worth it. The message is worth it, and I'm proud to do this show, and I'm very, very excited to bring it to very progressive Berkeley, which they're gonna hear it better than anyone. I do think Berkeley is even more progressive than San Francisco. So it's exciting.    [00:16:27] Miko Lee: Well, San Francisco is filled with tech bros now, so it's a very- Yeah … different vibe than when we were-   [00:16:32] Margaret Cho: That's right.   [00:16:32] Miko Lee: growing up. I'm wondering, I heard you say about how different it was during the Bush regime, which is actually relatively tame in retrospect compared to the fascistic times we're living in now. I'm wondering how different, now that you're going back to the kind of political roots, how different is it from that Bush time in your approach to your comedy?    [00:16:51] Margaret Cho: Well, Bush never descended into a cult. Bush never had the sort of magnetism as a person, to demand the cult-like sort of atmosphere that sort of exists now, where we have a leader who will gladly let all of his followers be on a decoy plane while he rushes away in a catering van. We think the decoy plane, that's really America. Like, the decoy– we are all, as a nation, on the decoy plane. He's happily content to let us all die to ensure his safety. It's like they're, and they're still gonna follow him after that. So that's a cult, you know? This is a different beast than we're dealing with just sort of patriotism or the idea of like xenophobia or the idea of wanting this kind of America that Bush wanted. Bush couldn't create that because he was not a cult leader, whereas now we have a bona fide cult and cult leader on a path to destruction.    [00:17:57] Miko Lee: So given this time that we're living in and how complicated it is, I'm wondering, especially as you're going on tour with this show, what brings you comfort and makes you feel connected to home when you're on tour or when you're away?   [00:18:10] Margaret Cho: Well, my dog is with me all the time, so that's really special. She'll be there at Berkeley. She's really, really amazing. I'm a big fan of social media. It's connecting with people on there, and people are encouraging me through there. There's a lot of points where I carry home with me. I'm also, at home on the road, because I've been traveling and performing for over 40 years, so it's a place that I feel a great deal of comfort in.    [00:18:35] Miko Lee: Because you mentioned social media, I'm just wondering, isn't that where the death threats are coming from, though, is social media? Or are you getting them in—   [00:18:42] Margaret Cho: Yes. But I'm also get, I get them on my phone. I get them, like they—   [00:18:45] Miko Lee: Oh, you, they- Yeah … find your cellphone and contact you—   [00:18:47] Margaret Cho: Yeah.   [00:18:48] Miko Lee: directly? Wow.    [00:18:49] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I get them, like, you know… I'm also concerned about, I've been doxxed, you know, they threatened to kill my dog, and I'm like, “She's white. She's one of you. Why would you kill her?” It's kind of funny.   [00:19:01] Miko Lee: But you don't respond to any of these folks, right?    [00:19:04] Margaret Cho: No, you can't, because you just don't know what… I always think about, like, Melissa Hortman. They killed her dog. I don't wanna be another example of, like, MAGA lunacy. When you speak out and you are a symbol of what they don't want. They don't want women, they don't want people of color talking. When you are that you're really in the line of fire. That's why traveling works for me, I get to be very, very stealth and hidden. Um, and that's kinda also why I travel so much, is to be stealth. Mm. I get so much encouragement from social media. I don't wanna cut myself off from it. But yeah, you have to be careful.    [00:19:42] Miko Lee: So you feel like that balance outweighs it?    [00:19:45] Margaret Cho: Yeah, for sure.   [00:19:45] Miko Lee: And I'm wondering if you think there's something that's misunderstood about you?    [00:19:49] Margaret Cho: When I'm talking and people don't like what I'm saying, they will say, “Oh, look at this has-been talking again.” And I'm like, “I'm not talking because I think I'm a celebrity. I'm talking because I am alive, and everybody who is alive has the right to speak.” I think this is really important. I don't talk because I feel like I have a responsibility to talk because I represent anything. No, I talk because we should all be talking. We should all have a voice. I don't have a sense of importance about myself or who I am or what I do. I think that everybody should be talking, and now we should all be talking because now we are all on that decoy plane, and he will leave us to die. So I'm going to say something about it. People have a myth about celebrity that somehow it involves our ego, and that's why we feel compelled to have a voice. But I think we should all have a voice no matter who we are.    [00:20:41] Miko Lee: I've heard you call yourself the patron saint of outsiders. Can you talk about what that means to you?    [00:20:47] Margaret Cho: I think for me it means to be able to have, my queerness front loaded, my Asianness front loaded, my gender front loaded, all these things that I want to be able to talk to those who feel like they don't feel represented by mainstream culture, by white supremacy. If you have felt rejected or even just not included by society at large, I wanna hear your voice. I wanna hear your opinion, and I wanna know you.    [00:21:15] Miko Lee: And last question, why should folks go and see Oligarchy at Berkeley Rep?    [00:21:20] Margaret Cho: Oh, it's Choligarchy.   [00:21:20] Miko Lee: Choligarchy.   [00:21:22] Margaret Cho: It's my nation. It's my dictatorship. In my dictatorship, we have universal healthcare. In my dictatorship, we have a universal living wage. If we actually made the billionaires pay their share, if we actually stopped supporting Israel and Argentina, other countries which I don't know why we give them so much money, but we do, if we stop doing that, we stop supporting the billionaires, if we stop giving corporations handouts, we could actually have a universal living wage where everybody in this nation would just be able to just live. We could just live because we are American. We could just live. And then your work could be what you really wanna do. That would be such an important change to the way that we exist as Americans. And we could do that if we actually stopped giving b- bailouts to corporations, actually made billionaires pay their share, and stopped giving money to countries that are not ours. That's what my platform is. That's what I run on, and that's what I plan to do.    [00:22:35] Miko Lee: And folk can find out more by going to see the show at Berkeley Rep, and we'll put a link in our show notes. Thank you so much, Margaret Cho, for joining us on Apex Express.    [00:22:45] Margaret Cho: Thank you.    [00:22:46] Miko Lee: Next up, get a preview of an upcoming unique performance at Oakland Asian Culture Center. Listen to Sawaal Jawaab    MUSIC   [00:24:01] Miko Lee: That was Sawal Jawab with Arjun Verma, Eman Hashimi, and Pezhham Akhavass in Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges, a one-night-only performance on Friday, September 11th at the Oakland Asian Culture Center. The concert's a rare opportunity for Bay Area audiences to experience the interplay of some of Asia's richest classical music traditions from India, Iran, and Afghanistan. Next up, we hear from two voices, multimedia artist Masaki Fujihata and Carin Adams, senior curator at the Oakland Museum. Masaki Fujihata is a world-renowned sound, installation, interactive, and new media artist. He's also a professor at Keio University. His work has been shown all around the world, and now it's coming to the Oakland Museum, opening September 18th and running through the end of December. The piece is called BeHere / 1942, A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration, and it's a new augmented reality work. So tune in to my interview with Masaki and Carin Welcome to Apex Express, multimedia artist Masaki Fujihata and Carin Adams, senior curator at Oakland Museum.    [00:25:13] I'm so happy to have you both with me, and we're talking about the new exhibit BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration, which opens at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18th to Sunday, December 27th. So thank you so much for joining me. I wanna start with a question I ask all of my guests. I'm gonna start first with you, Carin, and then I'll go to Masaki, and the question is, who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:25:53] Carin Adams: Oh, wow. I think there are lots of different facets of my family and who I think of as my people. Um, I think in, in this work in particular, I'm really, um, thinking a lot about my grandparents, my, my mother's parents, and, um, my mom, who's turning 91 in, um, October, and, um, her and her siblings' experience, um, being incarcerated in Tule Lake. So- Mm … that, I think has, has a lot to do with wh- why I'm here, and thank you so much for having me.    [00:26:36] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. And Masaki, what about you? Who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:26:43] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, in my case, my, career started with the computer graphics long time ago in the '80s, so I came in, uh, Bay Area and, uh, West Coast quite frequently to join a big, uh, conference and so on. But then in '90s, I was very many times to be invited to be in Europe, so-called media art, i- is so dominant. So my curiosity is about the visual arts plus computer technology. Then nearly 10 years ago, I started to play with augmented reality. I recognized AR is a very good technology to put the history in actual moment. So the title Be Here 1942 means, I try to call the people in the past in the present. After one of my friend, the professor at UCLA invite me to be in Los Angeles, then we started to focus onto the Japanese Americans' history. That was the first, a kind of coincidence, but it was, very interesting to me because, I was born in Tokyo and grew up here in Tokyo, so usually I didn't think about who is a Japanese. [00:28:10] Along with this production, I studied a lot, not only the racial problems, but also the identity, , not only the personal identity, but also identity of Japanese and also American. It's really difficult to understand what's is the identity in the America because so many different people are living together and of course there are several conflicts. This is very good study for me, through the new media technology and, through the meeting with the people. Some of them really had, severe experience inside the camp. I never had a chance to think about these opportunities. Then I really want to recreate what had happened in the 1942. That was my point of view for this project.    [00:29:08] Miko Lee: I'm wondering when you were growing up in Japan, did you learn about the Japanese American incarceration?    [00:29:15] Masaki Fujihata: Maybe, maybe, but a tiny. Most of the young students just thought, oh, this is the history, not mine    [00:29:27] Miko Lee: And did you… Were there kibei that were there? Cause I know there were a lot of Japanese Americans that had been pushed out and repatriated to Japan. Did you grow up knowing any of those people?    [00:29:39] Masaki Fujihata: Mm, not, not really. Not really. Um, how can I say? Mm, maybe this is the education, the Japanese education. They didn't talk much about the history. The first part is an ancient moment, is very, very, you know, impressive. But, at the end of the term, so the modern age usually passing very, very fast.    [00:30:10] Miko Lee: Oh, interesting.    [00:30:11] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, so n- not only about, history between America and Japan, but also China and Japan.   [00:30:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:30:19] Masaki Fujihata: We have very few knowledge in, on the context of, uh, history education. I mean—   [00:30:24] Miko Lee: So sort of World War II- I mean- and forward? From World War II—   [00:30:27] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, yeah …   [00:30:28] Miko Lee: You didn't really learn about it?   [00:30:28] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, modern age. Modern age. I believe this is very big problem in the education.    [00:30:35] Miko Lee: That's so interesting. So the first that you really learned about the Japanese American incarceration was during, when you started this project at UCLA? Is that right?    [00:30:44] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, yeah. I know something about the history in the US, but when I started to do research, there are many details, and every people's history is very, very different. So the textbook of the history is just the surface- So that's why I wanted to show more the detail through a new media technology.    [00:31:16] Miko Lee: I read a quote from you that said, “My aim was to peer deeply into photographs to derive from them more than was visible on the surface.” Can you talk a little bit more about what that means to you?   [00:31:29] Masaki Fujihata: Yes, because, I started to think about to focus on the moment when they ride the bus. So then, of course, I did some research to read some oral history, but, most of them didn't tell about the moment because I think this was just one hour or two hours for waiting. I suppose they usually don't want to remember, and also they thought that this is not important day, then they forgot.   [00:32:04] Miko Lee: What was it about the bus that you were curious about?    [00:32:08] Masaki Fujihata: We planned to realize our project, to think about the beginning. What is the beginning? There, there are quite many novels and writings about the life in the camp because of, of course, this is so heavy. Four years in the camp is unbelievable. According to my research, some people said they thought the war will ends in three months. But in there they spend in the camp, over four years. So of course, this is a heavy story and also while in the inside the camp. There are some conflict between the first generation, second generation or American side or Japanese side. The beginning is, of course, the Pearl Harbor raid, but, the bus, suddenly one day the bus came into your town and you were asked to ride the bus, and before riding they didn't tell them where they are going. So so if it happened now, how can we behave? So this is my question. This is the beginning, and they didn't know what will happen in the future. And then in parallel, I did some research to see the photographs because, there are many documentary photographs were in the archive, in National Archive, and also Library Congress. I tried to, see the photography, but as I said, when see the picture, you know, the detail is telling a different story, against the comment. The comment is just they are lining up for riding a bus or something, or Japanese American families get together and waiting. Of course they have some name card. At last I found through one of small girl's eye, there is a reflection of the photographer. But, not only the photographer, there are two, three, or four more people standing with the cameraman. Then, of course I understand they are all Caucasians. They are not Japanese American people. So for the little lady, for the little girl, when she was surrounded by, white officer, perhaps military police, she has nothing to do. But on the surface of the photography, she's smiling. So this contrast is the beginning. So this is a problem about media, visual media. So then I really want to share this experience with the other audiences through the exhibition. That was my intention.   [00:35:18] Miko Lee: And had you seen the photographs from Dorothea Lange and Russell Lee prior to working on this project?   [00:35:25] Masaki Fujihata: Of course, I know these names because they are very famous,, documentary photographer, the magazine Life started to publish from the year 1933, it was hit, so popular. I was really surprised because they did the job to make a document for Japanese Americans, and there is over 4,000 pictures left in the archive. I saw all of these so many times, so I can tell each picture. I can tell what is the difference, between the Dorothea and Russell Lee. So each photographer has, different characteristics. But I really surprised because, Dorothea Lange's photography is very different from others. And—   [00:36:18] Miko Lee: And the government didn't like them. They locked them away for years because they were too real.    [00:36:25] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, and because, Dorothea's photography is always associated with the object inside the photography. She tried to understand who is she, who, who is—-    [00:36:38] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm …    [00:36:39] Masaki Fujihata: and try to have a good relationship with the object. Most of the photographer, like a press cameraman, it's just go there, “Hey, smile,” and shot is their, you know, way of business. But Dorothea's way is very different, so sometimes, I can tell she is always calculating the distance from her to the object. I enjoyed very much to have a chance to see all of these details. Of course, another luckiness because all of these photograph were shot by the government, then all of these are now public domain. Even me from Tokyo, I can see so many photographs with high resolution. I think those are made after year 2000 because of the technology came in. Then now they are supplying 3,000 by 4,000 pixels. That's why I could enlarge and to see the reflection on the girl's eye. It's a coincidence, but also it's the evolution of computer technology from analog photography. So this is also interesting part to share with the audience.   [00:38:01] Miko Lee: Thank you. Carin, I wonder if you could talk about what an audience will see when they come in to see the exhibit.    [00:38:08] Carin Adams: The exhibition is going to happen inside and outside the gallery. So if people are visiting the museum coming up through our entrance on Oak Street, they will have an opportunity to enter the augmented reality application that Masaki has designed where they're, standing there grounded in, the architecture of the Oakland Museum. But they're also seeing people, dressed as if they were in 1942, waiting with their belongings and their family members. They'll be able to see the buses that lined up on Oak Street in '42. There was a civil control station that was across the street, and Dorothea Lange took some very famous photographs of people waiting with their belongings in front of their houses that, on the museum side of the street. Masaki has adapted the augmented reality that he first developed for Los Angeles for Oakland. So people on entrance onto our campus will have that experience, and then if they come into the gallery, then they'll really be entering into the gaze of these eyes. They'll be surrounded by very high resolution images that Masaki has blown up, to mural size. You're forced to encounter the people that were reflected in the eyes of the subjects that Lange photographed.    [00:39:45] Miko Lee: Thank you, and I know that in the collection, you've had these Dorothea photos for a long time, right, in the Oakland Museum's—   [00:39:53] Carin Adams: Yeah. The Oakland Museum is the holder of the Dorothea Lange archive, including some of her images of the incarceration. The Bancroft Library also has extensive holdings of her work and material , related to this history. And of course, Masaki did lots of research in the National Archive and Library of Congress.   [00:40:16] Miko Lee: Masaki, I know this is the second version of the show since you have opened it first at JAMM and at UC, with UCLA. Yeah. What was it like for you to recreate it for the Oakland Museum? How has that experience been?   [00:40:30] Masaki Fujihata: I'm very, very lucky to find OMCA. Mm-hmm. We started to think about the production in OMCA. I made a research through, of course Dorothy Lang's photography. Then there is a number of the street, 1117 Oak Street is the place where people apply their address and family name. The Civil Control Station is that address. I was very surprised because this is a street in front of the museum, and actually the other side of the street was the Civil Control Station where the bus came in. So this is exact place I really wanted to put my augmented reality models. So I was very shocked because I never think about the museum is a real place.   [00:41:24] Miko Lee: So it's truly a place-based piece of art because that is the history coming alive in that very spot.    [00:41:31] Masaki Fujihata: Yes. Yeah. So, all the projects start from the realization of augmented reality.    [00:41:39] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:41:40] Masaki Fujihata: So augmented reality is a kind of tech term, but augmentation is adding some information rather than the first wa- surface or rather than the display. In this case, we are putting the happenings in the 1942 in present, and then try to make a contrast between now and the past. The exhibition inside the gallery is showing a kind of process of the research to make this augmented reality piece because for making the 3D model data, we invite many volunteers into a special studio. I have to direct them. I have to prepare some scenario for them. In some cases, you are the university students. Coincidentally, you met the professor, while waiting for the bus. This is a fiction I made. When I need to make a scenario, I really need a research what is possible, what is not possible. So then the photography help me a lot to make a small scenario.    [00:43:01] Miko Lee: How many volunteers worked with you on this?    [00:43:04] Masaki Fujihata: I think totally 64 volunteers.    [00:43:08] Miko Lee: Wow. That is amazing.    [00:43:10] Masaki Fujihata: Each one was asked to walking towards the point where the bus would come, and then the second part is waiting, and then the third part is just lining up for the bus. So there is three different scenario. Then each person appears three times. Then totally you will see nearly 200 people.    [00:43:37] Miko Lee: Wow. And I understand that you use, in order to utilize the AR, you use cameras that kind of replicate those used during the incarceration, and I'm wondering what made you decide to choose that?   [00:43:53] Masaki Fujihata: So I try to know the core idea of each technology, because the technology is usually used for capitalism. My manifest is liberate technology from capitalism. So technology has another dimension, not only for serving for the capitalism to make money for your life more rational, but the technology also can give you a chance, who are you? What is life? What is the world? So I really want to use the technology another dimension of the technology usually used by the companies, and capitalism. In this case, this project is really good because very nice photography was left in the archive. But imagine in the 1942, photography was a high technology. Very few technicians or rich people could have the camera. Now so popular everybody has a camera inside their mobile phone, but it was high tech. And now augmented reality is somehow popular technology, but no one didn't use the AR technology to think about what we are doing as an art. So I wanted to use augmented reality to, to think about what is our life    [00:45:32] Miko Lee: Ooh, that is so interesting. I really appreciate that. And I'm wondering because you've seen audiences go through the first exhibit, I'm wondering if anything surprised you by audiences that have seen it and what, what you'd like people to walk away with after going to your installation.    [00:45:51] Masaki Fujihata: I was really surprised because this was my first case the audience had a tear. So after they saw the augmented reality, some of the person said, “Masaki,” I suppose, she suppose that, “Perhaps my grandfather was here.” Could feel the same impression or imagine, she could imagine what had happened on her grandfather So it's a bit like a cinema, but there is no written story, so each person can explore the images through a tablet. But, uh, maybe five minutes later, uh, the user will feel inside the scene. So In another words, I can say you are going to feel you are inside a cinema studio. You will be captured by the camera. And also another, okay, another interesting aspect because, I could develop this project because the photographs were left made by Dorothy and other people, uh, professional documentary photographer made these photography. So photography was left. And then, um, while you are using iPad in the entrance plaza of, Oakland Museum, you will see many Japanese people wearing the costume and, waiting for the bus. But now you are the cameraman. You believe you are seeing what had happened through the display, but, imagine for them inside the image were looked by you. So this is the viewer you are going to see, but also from them, from the object, you are the cameraman.   [00:48:04] Miko Lee: So you want people to feel both sides, both being the watcher but also in it—   [00:48:09] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah.   [00:48:10] Miko Lee: Immersed in the experience.    [00:48:11] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, hunter.    [00:48:13] Miko Lee: Mm.    [00:48:13] Masaki Fujihata: Image hunter, yeah.    [00:48:15] Miko Lee: Image hunter, mm. I, I feel like you're saying utilizing technology as a tool for your emotions as opposed to a capitalistic gain. I'm wondering if you're working with AI at all, and your thoughts about it. Because you've really been on the forefront of so much multimedia since the '80s and I'm just wondering now people are just talking about AI and the impact of artists  and I wonder what your thoughts are about that.   [00:48:39] Masaki Fujihata: I, I think, uh, it's too early to, uh, work with AI as an artist because, uh, e- even the developer of, uh, AI didn't know what happened inside, so it's a black- totally black box. So that's interesting part of AI. Uh, maybe you know some, some story about this. Very recently, uh, the AI ju- just hack the connection, then they escape from the inside the laboratory to go outside the internet. So this could happen. Uh, that's why, because a human couldn't imagine. So the AI doing something different, and it's really a black box. Then, uh, that's interesting point. If I can be inside the development company as an artist, I can make something interesting hacking software, but it's a huge business, and, uh, I think this is not the moment for the artist. And also, as you know, all the data inside the AI is, uh, happenings in the past.    [00:50:02] Miko Lee: Right.    [00:50:04] Masaki Fujihata: And then, right, the present is important for the humans. What is the role of the artist? There is some, uh, sentence, artist is the person who is creating something new which has not exist before. so, uh, we are not AI, so w-we have to know who, what we should do in contrast to AI is the important moment    [00:50:37] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I wonder if you would want to just reflect briefly on how this, this piece that you're presenting at Oakland Museum is very resonant right now in America because of the current politics of incarceration of peoples and you know, we're at the same, at the exact same concentration camps where Japanese Americans were held. Immigrants are being detained and put there right now. I'm wondering how this piece speaks to the moment that we're living in in the United States right now.   [00:51:13] Masaki Fujihata: Um, please do not make more mistakes that American government did before in 1942. So Our project can be a kind of reference what the American government did after the Pearl Harbor.    [00:51:39] Carin Adams: Masaki, would you wanna talk a little bit about the new piece that you're making?    [00:51:45] Masaki Fujihata: Oh, I see, I see. I think- That's a good idea. I, I totally forgot. Yeah. Thank you, Carin. Because I proposed to Carin and museum about to make a new piece. The idea is about, uh, the poster. The, that they… So the, in Okura case, maybe, uh, to l- late April in 1942, the poster paste on anywhere, everywhere inside the town, and talking about the, at the certain day, you cannot be stay here. You will be criminal. So, so this is the s- starting point. Then they need to come to the civil control station to sign up, and then one week later, the bus came in, then they need to go to the camp. Then the poster is now very famous, but, uh, usually, people didn't read it Then I, I asked to, collect volunteers to ask read this text on the poster, uh, several different locations inside the Oakland. So when you see the final result, the view of the people reading the text aloud is very peaceful, very bright, California sunshine and there is a lake behind and sometimes, you know, the buses came and stop and go there. So this is very peaceful, but the content is very strong- strongly contrast- co- contrasted. So it's a command from the government. I really wanted to, to make this contrast through this new production. So you, you will see three vertical monitors, and, 25 different group of people. I think there was nearly 45 people helped me to realize this   [00:54:02] Miko Lee: What is it you hope to evoke by adding this new piece of the relocation poster?   [00:54:08] Masaki Fujihata: I really wanted to involve some of the young generation and family and also, known Japanese American people. So all of these people, of course, have some fear against the, this moment, and then try to, uh, send messages. So they helped me to realize this.   [00:54:39] Carin Adams: The video is really going to provide the soundtrack for the exhibition. There is no sound in any of the other film elements or in the AR other than what visitors bring in conversation into the space. But they'll be able to hear the local volunteers that Masaki assembled reading the exclusion order text and we're expecting that to be very profound- impactful. And yes, some of the people who volunteered for this new video element were incarcerated themselves, others are descendants, and then there are just people who are representing different immigrant experiences who wanted to participate. So it's a very local production, and it really cites us in the present moment with this really chilling text from the past.    [00:55:33] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining me and chatting with me about the exhibit BeHere / 1942. I'm really excited to check it out, and I hope our audience gets a chance to go and see it all the way through the end of December at Oakland Museum.   [00:55:48] Carin Adams: Thank you so much for having us.    [00:55:50] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight's show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 9.3.26 – Beneath the Surface with Margaret Cho & Masaki Fujihata appeared first on KPFA.

Howard Penrose of MotorDoc joins to discuss the circulating currents killing main bearings and drivetrain checks without a climb. Reach out at info@motordoc.com or on LinkedIn. The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast is brought to you by Weather Guard Lightning Tech, creators of the StrikeTape Ultra LPS retrofit. Subscribe to Uptime’s Substack newsletter. And check out Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” Youtube channel. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow. Allen Hall: Howard, welcome back to the program.  Howard Penrose: Hey, thanks for having me.  Allen Hall: It’s about time everybody realizes what motorDoc can do. There’s so much technology, and I’ve been watching- Yeah … your Chaos and Caffeine podcast on Saturday morning, which are full of really, really good information about the motorDoc as a company, all the things you’re doing out in the field, and how you’re solving real-world problems, not imaginary ones- Yeah real-world problems. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and  Howard Penrose: whatever annoys me that week. Exactly. And, and whatever great coffee I’m trying out. Yes. Except for a few. We’ve had the ReliaSquatch down our- Yes … um, a couple of times. Uh, yeah, no, I, I enjoy it, and we gotta get you on there sometime. I don’t do- I, it- … a lot of interviews other than an AI character we put in. Allen Hall: It’s a very interesting show because you’re [00:01:00] getting a little bit of comedy and humor and s- Yeah … and a, and a coffee review, which is very helpful because I’ve tried some of the coffees that you have reviewed, that you’ve given the thumbs up to. But if you’re operating wind turbines and you’re trying to understand what’s happening on the drivetrain side, on the generator, everything out to the blades even, main bearings, gearboxes- Yeah all those rotating heavy, expensive parts, there’s a lot of ways to diagnose them-  Howard Penrose: Yes …  Allen Hall: that are sort of like we can look at a gear, we can look at a joint, we can look at roller bearings, whatever, but motorDoc has a way to quickly diagnose all of that chain in about- Yeah … 15 seconds.  Howard Penrose: Well, a little longer than 15 sec- more like a minute. A minute, okay. It feels like paint drying. But- Uh, in any case, yeah. Uh, uh, and, and what’s kind of funny is, um, back in the ’90s, uh, EPRI actually accidentally steered the technology away from its [00:02:00] core purpose, which was in 1985, um, NAVSEA, the US Navy, had done research on using current signature analysis for looking at pumps, fans, and compressors, the bearings, the belts, the components, all the rotating components using the motor as the sensor. Not too much different than we are now. I mean, mind you, we got better resolution now, we’ve got, uh, more powerful– I mean, I look at my data from the ’90s, and now it’s completely different. Um, and then Oak Ridge National Lab, same thing, bearings and gears in motor-operated valves. So in 2003, we were the first ones to apply electrical and current signature analysis to some wind turbines in the Mojave Desert. Wow. Yeah. So, um, nobody had tried it before. Everybody said it couldn’t be done. And, uh, that was a bad thing to say to me because- … it meant I was gonna get it [00:03:00] done. Right. At that time, um, we were looking at bearing issues and some blatant conditions with the, um, with the, uh, generator using a technology called Altest, ’cause I was with Altest at the time. And, uh, I had taken an EMPath software and blended it with a, a power analyzer, and they still have that tool to this day. I was using that technology all the way through 2015. 2016, I should say. And then- And then switched over to the pure EMPath, which was more of an engineering tool. And then more recently, in 2022, uh, made the decision to ha- to take all the work we’d done on over 6,000 turbines, uh, looking at how we were looking at the data and what we were doing on the industrial side, and took a, uh, created a current signature analyzer that would do one phase of current to analyze the entire powertrain. Allen Hall: So when you tell [00:04:00] operators you can do this magic, I think a lotta times they gotta go, “ Howard Penrose: What?” Oh, yeah, yeah. They don’t understand it because they’re used to vibration- Right … which is a point analysis system. Right.  Allen Hall: Vibration at this- Yeah … particular location. Yeah. One spot- Even if it’s- … or a couple  Howard Penrose: spots triax, they’re reading through material, up through a transducer. Hopefully, they put it above the bearing and not in the middle of the machine like everybody is now, because everybody’s trying to sell a sensor. Right. True. They’re not selling a- they’re not selling accuracy. They’re just selling sensors. Right. So, um- Yeah … you know, uh, I, I’ll, I’ll even talk about one of the companies here. We’ve got Onyx here, and they do it right. I mean, they’ve been doing it right pretty well because we’ve been doing some of the same towers they’re on, and we can match the data they’re getting. Oh, good. Right? Yeah. Uh, so but they get it in multiple spots, and there’s areas they can’t quite reach, so we’ll detect those areas as well. So it’s a good melding of two technologies.  Allen Hall: Oh, sure. Sure,  Howard Penrose: sure. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you have electrical signature and you have vibration, but in [00:05:00] cases if you don’t have vibration, we’re a direct replacement.  Allen Hall: Because the generator- I  Howard Penrose: dare say that.  Allen Hall: Yeah. Whichever–  Howard Penrose: I dare say that, um, with- Well, the  Allen Hall: generator is acting as the sensor. Howard Penrose: The air gap. The air gap in the generator s- specifically, yes. Yeah. Generator, motor, transformer. Right.  Allen Hall: Yeah. So any of those- Mm-hmm … you can clamp onto, look at the current that’s on there. Everything that’s happening on the drivetrain, in the gearbox, out on the rotor- Yep … main bearings, all of that creates vibration. Creates a torque. T- a, a torque. Yeah. Yes, more exactly a torque. Yeah. And that’s seen in the generator, in the current coming out of the generator. Yes. So those signals, although minute, are still there. Yes. So if you clamp onto that current coming out of the generator, you’ll see the typical AC sine wave sitting there. But on top of that- Is all the information about how that drivetrain is doing  Howard Penrose: Absolutely, and everything else. Anything electrical comes through [00:06:00] that. So what you do is just like vibration, you do a spectral analysis. So every component has a frequency associated with it, just like vibration. It’s, as a matter of fact, I, I keep having to try to explain to people electrical and current signature analysis is no different than vibration analysis. It’s the same concept. We use the same tools. The signature looks just a little different. It’s a little noisier, um, but you need that noise in order to see everything. But we have a time waveform, and instead of, um, inches per second or millimeters per second, whatever, you know, uh, velocity, acceleration, and displacement, uh, what we end up with is decibels is the optimal method. You can look at straight voltage signatures at those points or, or current signatures, but the values are so small that you have to look at it from a logarithmic standpoint. Right. There are some benefits to it versus vibration, and there’s some things that aren’t as good as vibration. [00:07:00] So, you know, we, we do… You have to… Any technology is gonna have their strengths and weaknesses. Sure. So we will see everything all at once. Load doesn’t matter. Right. Speed doesn’t matter. It’s… Only reason speed matters is the location of the frequencies. Uh, so the higher the resolution, meaning the longer you take data, the less chance you have on a lightly lo- loaded machine of blending the peaks together. Right. Um, on the flip side, if I have two bearings turning at the exact same speed, I couldn’t tell you which one it is. Because they’re the same. Right.  Allen Hall: And the mechanical features of that bearing is w- what creates the signal that you’re measuring. Exactly. So if a bearing has five rollers versus 10, just imaginary thing. Yeah, yeah. Five rollers versus 10 has a different electrical signature, so you can determine, like, that bearing, that 10 roller bearing- Yes … has the problem, the five is fine. Yes. Yeah. That’s the magic, and I think people don’t translate the mechanical world into the electrical world. That that’s what’s [00:08:00]happening. They,  Howard Penrose: they don’t because, because what’s happening is they named it wrong.  Allen Hall: Yes.  Howard Penrose: A majority of our users are mechanical folks. Sure. Our vibration analysts and stuff like, ’cause they know how to look at the signatures. Right. Everybody tries to force it on their electrical people, and electrical people go, “We don’t know what this is.” Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s a matter of that training and, and, you know, in the electrical world, you’re not taught to look at that. Right. Yeah. It doesn’t matter. Mechanical world, you’re taught to look at that. So our intern, we were trying to bring in electrical engineering interns and found out that just wasn’t working. So last year, I brought in my first, uh, intern that’s, you know, he’s been with us now since I brought him in. Okay. Uh, and, uh, Amar, and, uh, you know, he’s helped us develop our vi- uh, vibration software to go along with it. Guess what? It’s the same thing. It’s the exact same sy- system Um, but we just take in a vibration signal instead. But he picked up on it immediately as a [00:09:00] third-year college student. I can take somebody with a decade as an electrical engineer with a PhD and they can’t figure it out.  Allen Hall: Well, because you’re, you’re taking real- Because it’s different. Yeah. It’s r- well, it’s real-world components-  Howard Penrose: Yeah …  Allen Hall: creating electrical signals. That’s hard- Well, you have- … to process for a lot of people. Yeah,  Howard Penrose: yeah. It’s  Allen Hall: just not  Howard Penrose: something that we do every day. But that’s… If they, i- if we sa- i- i- if you’re looking at vibration and you start looking at the sensor, it gets complicated too, ’cause guess what? It’s an electrical signal. Right. It’s, it is technically electrical signature now. It’s converting a  Allen Hall: mechanical signal- Right … into an electrical signal, which is what’s happening in the generator anyway. Yeah.  Howard Penrose: Whether it’s a piezoelectric cell that’s generating a small signal- Yeah … on top of a small waveform that you then take out, you demodulate, uh, or it’s, uh… So you take that carrier frequency out, or it’s a MEMS sensor, which is the same thing. You know, the, it just sees some slower s- It, it does more of a digital output. So you, you, you know, you have those, or you [00:10:00] have this, which just basically uses a component of the machine to, to, as its own sensor. There is one other difference between them, too, and, uh, I find this very useful when I’m going out troubleshooting something that other people can’t figure out, uh, ’cause we use all the technologies. So in this case, it would be, uh, the structural movement. Okay? So, so say I have a generator and there’s something wrong with the structure, and the whole machine is vibrating. So y- well, if I put a transducer on it, they might think that’s vibration or something else. We don’t see it. Right. We only see directly exactly what’s happening with the machine. Sure. So a lot of times when we go in to troubleshoot something that people have done vibration on and everything else, it’s been pro- a, a problem for them for years. We walk in, and all of a sudden we’re identifying whether it’s the machine or it’s something else right off the bat. Then we can take a look at the vibration data and [00:11:00] say, “Okay, it wasn’t the bearing or the bearing, um, structure. It was, you know, the mounting.” Right. It wasn’t  Allen Hall: fastened  Howard Penrose: down properly. Yeah,  Allen Hall: yeah. Right.  Howard Penrose: Go tighten that bolt. Right, exactly.  Allen Hall: Well, I mean, that’s the cheap answer. Yeah. I’d rather tighten a bolt than rip apart a motor or a generator- And, and- … every day …  Howard Penrose: and that’s the whole point. Now, there are other strengths that go with it. So for instance, on the powertrain of a wind turbine, I can tell you if you’ve lubricated the bearings correctly. Wow. Because part of what we do is we do take those electrical signatures, and we convert those over to watts. Watts is an energy conversion. Sure. So you see that as heat or some type of loss. So whatever, whatever’s being lost there is not being sent to the customer. To the outside. Right. Making money. So, um, if I’m taking a look at, say, a main bearing, I might see watts or kilowatts of losses. So you’re gonna have some ’cause you have friction, right? But when we see it increase on, say, a roller, [00:12:00] or the rollers, or, or the cage, that’s usually an indicator that I have a lubrication issue. Or if we only see it on the outer race, that means that they didn’t clear out all the old grease when they were lubricating it, ’cause the rollers then have to ride across it- Right … ’cause it dries up.  Allen Hall: Sure.  Howard Penrose: Uh, and will carry contaminants. So if you see that, you go up, clean it up, you’ll extend the life of the bearing. Absolutely you will. Without having to do a lot of work. So, uh, we, we look at our technology as more so early in the, in the stage of a condition. I don’t wanna call it failure, ’cause it’s not a failure. It’s something that’s mitigable. And I made that word up. You can mitigate it. Meaning you can go up and correct it and extend the life of that component. Sure. Uh, in gearboxes we’ll see problems with, um… Well, the, the one we’re talking about here a fair amount is all the circulating currents going on uptower. We did that research. The current signature analyzer we have is a direct result of doing wind turbine [00:13:00] research just on circulating currents uptower, ’cause we conferred everything over to, to sound at 48 kilohertz. And so that gives me a 24-kilohertz signal. That high-frequency stuff, which we’re researching in CGRE, and IEEE, and IEC, is called supra harmonics, which I– we talked about that before. Yes, we have. Yeah. And, uh, so when you start seeing that in the, in, in the current that’s circulating uptower because the ground that goes from the top of the tower down is for- DC lightning protection. And lightning protection, yeah. It’s not meant for, um- Not for  Allen Hall: high frequency- Yeah …  Howard Penrose: currents. Yeah. Uh, we, when we measured it, when we mapped out dozens of towers of all different manufacturers, we found that the impedance about halfway down the tower is where it ends. Sure. The, the resistance. And then the increased, uh, the high-frequency noise turns any of your shaft brushes into resistors. And at about 15 kilohertz, no current is [00:14:00]passing through them. It’s all passing the bearing, which becomes more conductive the higher the frequency. So with 60% of main bearings failing due to electrical currents, it’s actually currents that are circulating uptower. It’s not static. There is some static up there, but it’s not static. It’s coming from the controls, the, the generator, and everything else. Inverters,  Allen Hall: converters.  Howard Penrose: And we’ve seen up to 150 amps passing through a, through a bearing.  Allen Hall: So I– We run across a lot of operators who have been replacing main bearings, and they don’t know the reason why. Yeah. And I always say, “Well, call Howard at MotorDoc because I would almost bet you you have the f- high frequency running around uptower in the nacelle- And the next main bearing you put in there is gonna go the same way as the- Yeah … first one you put in there. Until you cut off that circulating current and then the cell, you’re just gonna continue with the problem. Then you haven’t eliminated the problem, you’re just fixing the result of that problem. Yes. But it takes- Yeah, you’re, you’re- How, [00:15:00] how, well, how long- You’re replacing  Howard Penrose: a fuse.  Allen Hall: Right, you’re replacing a fuse. Yeah. How long does it take you to s- to determine- An expensive fuse. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, ’cause you’re taking the rotor down. Yeah. Well, how, how fast can you determine if you have harmonics uptower that are gonna be causing you problems? 120 seconds.  Howard Penrose: Okay.  Allen Hall: So that’s the thing. I think a lot of- I mean,  Howard Penrose: that’s of the actual data collection time. So you clamp on uptower, uh, and then you can… Well, the way we have it set up now, you just tell it you wanna collect data every five s- uh, five minutes, and then you go downtower, let it collect its data, go back up, grab it. Um, it’s like… It’s huge. It’s this size. So, um, and then you connect- It plugs into a laptop. Yeah. Plug it into a laptop or any type of tablet. Um, it, it’s Windows now. I’m trying to get away from Windows. We’re gonna have Linux systems, uh, as well. Uh, and then you use that to, um, just collect that data, and then you press another button. Now it pops up, and it tells you if you’re in danger or not, [00:16:00] the amount of current passing through the bearing, and the frequencies all the way out.  Allen Hall: So the ideal is you’re gonna have this kit with you in the truck. Yeah. And as you see these problems pop up, you’re gonna clamp on uptower. Yep. You’re gonna measure these circulating currents, and you’re gonna know immediately if you have another mechanical issue, a, a lubrication issue- Oh, yeah. It’ll look at- … some kind of alignment issue, or- You’ll get all  Howard Penrose: of this information at once. So you- Right … if you go on the power side. So certain turbines, like anything that has the transformer downtower, you don’t have to climb. Right. GE. I mean, I don’t climb. So, uh, uh, you know, th- and that was part of the, the concept behind when we started down this path because I’ve been in the wind industry since 1997. So one of the things I always saw was, and, and we talked about even, you know, here when it was called AWEA, and we were talking always on the health and safety side about wearing out the technicians. Um, so we discovered that, you know, what was it? Almost 60% of the [00:17:00] turbines you didn’t have to climb. Right. Oh, yeah. And even the ones you do, you go up, you set it up, and it’ll tell you where you need to focus. The other thing in the powertrain, let alone the generator, when we do a sweep of a site– Now, if we do a straight electrical signature analysis, I’d term that one as a technician’s tool. Sure. That’s more of an engineer’s tool. Uh, a lot more data, a lot harder to set up. But even though I’m saying harder to set up, it’s still pretty easy. It’s still minutes. Right. Yeah. Most technicians will collect data with, like, a couple hours worth of training. Yeah. You g- You basically gather that data, and if you’re getting a site, so we’ll go out– I love going out in the field. So we’ll go out in the field, especially if it’s a tower we don’t have to climb I’ll knock out, uh, well, let’s just say I’ll, I’ll, I’ll name one. Say a GE 1.6. I’ll knock out one of those every eight to 11 minutes, depending on how you get to the tower.  Allen Hall: So that’s a full diagnosis of drivetrain- Yeah … plus anything odd happening- Yep with circulating currents and all that [00:18:00] can- Oh, no, no. Circulating- Or just- … current, that’s a- That’s a separate thing at tower … separate study that- Okay … you have to do that uptower. But anything, anything drivetrain-wise, you can be in and out- Yeah … in a couple of minutes. Yep. Okay. So there’s a lot of operators that have end-of-warranties coming up, right? Yes. There’s been a lot of developments, so they’re kind of running into the end-of-warranty, and they don’t know the health status of their drivetrain. Same thing for a lot of operators that are in- Yep … full service agreements, and they’re questioning whether they’re getting their money’s worth or not. Yes. I always say, “Call Howard at Motordoc. You guys can have a whole site survey done maybe in a couple of days, and you will know all the problems that are on site for the lowest price ever”. Yeah. It’s crazy how fast you can do it and how accurate it is. I talk to operators that use your system, so I hear you. Yeah. Your podcast, listen to your podcast, I’m calling your customers to find out what they say, and they love it. Oh, yeah. They can’t believe how accurate it is. Yeah. Well, the thing about that is we as an industry need to make sure that our turbines are operating at [00:19:00] maximum efficiency. Yep. And if a simple tool like the Motordoc EMPath system exists, we need to get customers, operators in line to start doing it worldwide. Australia- Oh … Europe-  Howard Penrose: Yeah. We- … Canada. Australia, we’re trying to get into, but right now we even have OEMs using it through North- That’s good … and South America, Asia. Good. Uh, Middle East, um, and, uh, and some of Europe. Good. So it’s, it’s, it’s really taking off. Uh, I’d say probably our biggest market right now is Brazil. Sure. They’re going crazy. Well, the, the turbines are- They’re having a lot of problems. Yeah.  Allen Hall: Right. And the, well, those turbines have a h- high usage, right? So because- Oh, yeah … the winds are so good, they’re operating at, like, capacity factor is above 50%. Yes. It’s insane. Yeah. So there’s a lot of wear and tear. There’s no downtime for those turbines.  Howard Penrose: Yeah. Well, and, and people think it’s all the starting and stopping. It’s not. No. It’s a grid-related issue. So we have- Sure … we have a low frequency. And you know some of the stuff I volun- I, I’m, I’ve been volunteered for- [00:20:00] Yeah … uh, including the CIGRE thing. Um, so I get to sit in the grid code committees for IEEE and put my, and our input into that, uh, and kind of watch the back of the IBR industry, right? Mm-hmm. ‘Cause there’s a definitely bias against our industry. Um, and I also, uh, get to hear what’s going on in the grid side of things from CIGRE worldwide, and it’s all very similar, and it has to do with low-frequency oscillating currents- Yes … called subsynchronous currents- Yes … which are low enough not to damage large synchronous machines. And they thought, and there’s books written on this, by the way, multiple books written on wind turbine impact- Uh, and they’re seeing now, um… Well, we detected it first, along with Timken. Hank, uh, and, and I went out to a site, and we detected for the first time, because of how they wanna do the testing and where the site was located, we saw the oscillating torque [00:21:00] in the air gap, ’cause that’s one of the things the technology does. It actually measures the torque, air gap torque. Sure. So we were watching the oscillating torque as a tower started up. And so we did, we went through the rest of that site looking at the same stuff in the same way. It increased our time and data collection, and time on site. But then we started looking for it at other sites, and going to pass data because I don’t have to go back and retake data. Right. And we’re like, “Oh my God. It’s everywhere.” 16 hertz, 21 hertz, and 50 hertz. And we found a paper that specifically identified that as the sub synchronous frequencies for 60 hertz. So we know what they are also for 50 hertz. Once we identified that and we saw how much the torsi- torque was oscillating, we worked with Shermco, who got us some information on Y-rings that were failing. Yeah. And they were all failing… When the metallurgy was done, they were all failing from fatigue. And you’re like, fatigue how? What’s fatiguing these connections? [00:22:00] Well, the fatigue is that air gap torque- Exactly … because you’re basically causing the, the, everything to oscillate a little bit, and that causes the windings to move slightly. It’s a living,  Allen Hall: breathing machine-  Howard Penrose: Exactly … this generator  Allen Hall: is.  Howard Penrose: Yeah.  Allen Hall: It’s not  Howard Penrose: static. It’s definitely not sta- no electric machine is static. No. Even a transformer’s not static. Right.  Allen Hall: So- There’s a little  Howard Penrose: bit of wiggle going on there all the time All the time. And it’s minute, so it takes a long time. Right. And what, uh, uh, everybody… Well, first people thought it was a particular manufacturer, which it wasn’t. Turned out every defig’s failing the same way. Sure. You’re fatiguing it. Yeah. Every bearing is failing the same way, even in the gearbox, main bearings, and everything else. Right. All of these conditions are happening across all the OEMs, but they’re not allowed to talk. Well, this is, this is the thing that  Allen Hall: I like watching your podcast.  Howard Penrose: Yeah.  Allen Hall: The Chaos and Caffeine. It comes out Saturday mornings. It’s on YouTube. If you haven’t- Yeah … clicked into it, you should click into it  Howard Penrose: because a lot of these issues are discussed there. It’s definitely, um… [00:23:00] Let’s just say I’ll speak Navy quite a bit. Allen Hall: It’s a great podcast, and I think what you’re doing with the EMPath system- Yes … at motor dock is really a game changer. Yeah. I’m talking to everybody, all the operators I know. I keep telling them to call you and to try the system out because it’s so inexpensive and it does the work quickly and efficiently, and it’s been proven. There’s no messing- Oh, yeah … around when you’re talking to MotorDoc. I…  Howard Penrose: Somebody dared tell me that there’s no standard for it. There’s ISO standards for it. Yes. There’s IEEE 1415- Yes … which I chair. Uh, and there’s other standards coming out- This is- … associated with it. And there’s a document that I also chair for Sea Gray- Called A178, which is the practical application of the technology. So it’s well-documented. There are traceable standards for it. I need more  Allen Hall: operators to call you- Yeah … and to talk to you and get systems in the back of the trucks that they can use to check out the health of their gear boxes and their drive trains and their generators. How [00:24:00] do they do that? Where do they go? Where, where’s, what’s- Well- … the first place they should look for?  Howard Penrose: Uh, info@motordoc.com. Okay. I get all, I get all of those as well, so do my people. Um, or, uh, LinkedIn. LinkedIn’s really good.  Allen Hall: Look up anything. Yeah.  Howard Penrose: Yeah, yeah. So, so either the company at Motordoc, or, uh, I’m, I sh- I’ll show up either searching for my name or, uh, linkedin.com/in/motordoc. Come straight to me ’cause I’ve been in, on LinkedIn forever, so- Right, just- … I got to do that … look up  Allen Hall: Howard Penrose, P-E-N-R-O-S-E. Yep. Or go to motordoc.com is- Yep, motordoc.com … the website address.  Howard Penrose: Yep. There’s a lot of great information there. And we have partners, and we have people. We’re growing the company. You know, talk to me. I, I’ll- Yes … I like answering the phone and talking. It’s, it’s a thing. My people go, “Can we answer the phone one?” No. Um, but, but yeah, we, we, y- when you call us, you’re not just dealing with a single person. Right. The Motordoc is far more expansive. Right now, we [00:25:00] just got our partnership with, uh, Hitachi and, and Juliet- Yeah, that’s great and stuff like that. Uh, we’re helping them with certain things. Uh, we’re partnered with some of the big OEMs, almost all of them, um, you know, helping identify the issues, you know. And, and when users contact us, often they’ll tell us what’s going on, and we’ll, we can, uh, sometimes say, “Yeah, it’s this, and here’s how we prove it.” Allen Hall: Yeah. That’s the, that’s the beauty- Yeah … of calling Motordoc. So I need my operators that, that watch the show- Yeah … worldwide, go online, go on LinkedIn, get ahold of Howard, get ahold of Motordoc, and get started. Yep. Howard, thank you- And- … so much for being on the podcast. Yeah. This is fantastic. I love talking to you because- it’s, it’s like talking to, you know… Uh, no, really, it’s talking like someone who’s a real good industry expert, who’s been there a long time, and understands- Yeah … how this  [00:26:00] works.

Tiff and Pam talk about the current intersection of technology in the practice, and how using and understanding AI as a tool for busywork means you can focus on the tasks that really need that human touch. They talk about why training AI could be just as critical as training humans, where to look first when incorporating the software into your practice, how a staff member can serve as quality check for automated tasks, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Tiff back with you here on the podcast. And we are in the studio today. I have myself and I have Miss Pam with me. And Pam is one of our prize possession consultants here at the Dental A Team. We have had Pam on our team for a little while now. And if you are special enough and blessed enough to work with her, you know exactly who she is and you have some solid foundational systems. Pam is a systems guru. She busts them out.   And she holds accountability like I've never seen before. And when she learns something, she learns it forever. And I love getting to watch you, Pam, progress in your Dental A Team journey. I watch you like taking notes all the time on the systems that we, you know, hold tried and true. Yesterday Dana was talking about a couple of systems during our collaboration and I was like, gosh.   She's just over there feverishly writing and I love it because I know exactly what's gonna happen. You're gonna like go back, you're gonna relearn   Pamela (00:54) I was. Yes, I was.   Tiffanie (00:58) it, and you're gonna teach it. And it was just really cool. So I love that, Pam. Thank you. And I love that you have these skill sets that you're able to then take and you help so many practices implement the same skill sets, like not just our systems, but how to retain it. You know how you retain it.   But then you're also looking for how are other people retaining the things that they're learning so that you can help them grow in their learning as well. So it's just really cool to watch, Pam. Thank you for everything you do and thank   Pamela (01:27) Thank you.   Tiffanie (01:28) you for being here today. How are you?   Pamela (01:31) you know, I'm doing fabulous and thank you. I appreciate all those kind words, Tiff. That was very nice. I think it's a unique and great time to be in dentistry. So v we've seen a lot of changes over the years and now we're to a stage that is changing very, very quickly.   Tiffanie (01:50) I agree. I I love that you said that, Pam, because something that I think we've said in dentistry for a long time is that dentistry is really progressive in a lot of ways. I think there's a lot of things in dentistry that haven't changed and haven't progressed, like Rick canals, things like that are still being done similarly to how they were thirty years ago. But so much in dentistry is so progressive and it's changing all the time. But I I think we've always said that. But I think in the last five, six years that has   Like us saying that before doesn't even make sense anymore. Like the progression we're seeing now is wild.   Pamela (02:26) It's it's crazy. you know, I was thinking about this, and there are so many systems that we have done for years that we're not perfecting, right? That we still could perfect and are in addition to any AI stuff we have. But the interesting thing is is that now something that has been in scarcity our entire human existence or now or soon will become like an abundant commodity, which is intelligence, right?   Tiffanie (02:53) Yeah. Yeah.   Pamela (02:55) So   I think that it's really wild to be thinking about that intelligence is a commodity and we can buy it.   Tiffanie (03:03) Yeah, I think that's amazing. That was a great perspective. And you are not wrong. I listen to a lot of   Pamela (03:07) Yeah.   Tiffanie (03:09) podcasts and I know you do too that speak to that same thing. And I think both of our households house many conversations around that same thing. I think we we share that.   Pamela (03:18) That is so true. It's so true.   Tiffanie (03:22) Yeah. So with that, Pam, I think that's a great start. What are you seeing? expand on that for me. Like what are you seeing as far as I love that like intelligence is is a   purchasable at this point. What are you seeing with your practices or just the research you're doing and the things you're hearing and and listening to within the dental world, narrow that down for us. What are you seeing from your perspective how that's changing dentistry?   Pamela (03:48) Yeah,   well I I think the the question is is how do we react to that reality, right? And a lot of practices are have not gotten into the AI and are now saying, okay, I want my insurance verification done, I want, you know, RCM done, the revenue cycle management done by AI, but it is a little daunting. Right? It is like I had one practice say   yo well we have this company that's doing our RCM and and I said do you are you like what are you doing with it and they said nothing they do it and I'm like dear goodness gracious like there are you have to manage it unfortunately I think we're at a real a space where we're not the Ironman like Jarvis runs everything   Tiffanie (04:43) Yeah.   Pamela (04:43) you know stage we're at the   Alexis and we have a lot of really smart AI tools. Most of them, I'm well, they're all sitting on top of separate systems and what we are contributing. I don't think we're pardon me quite to the point where it's an operating system as opposed to, you know, pieces. So I'm seeing practices now take those pieces, try to learn them, and then develop their skills even more in the stuff that they were doing.   So what I mean by that is how are we, how are they actually doing at clean claims, right? Are they   Tiffanie (05:23) Yeah.   Pamela (05:24) getting the clean the claims clean before they send them in? how are they doing on you know managing the online scheduling? Are they reacting to that? And is all the patient's insurance information accurate before it goes to the AI?   So that's that's what I'm seeing. That's a s a little bit of a struggle.   Tiffanie (05:47) Yeah. I think something you pointed out there was that a lot of people a lot of people seem to be jumping headfirst and just like handing the keys over rather than allowing it to be a tool that they use still with oversight. And I noticed recently, even just on my chat GPT that I use down at the bottom, it's like, Hey FYI, these may be inaccurate. Like this is not to be taken as truth. Yeah. And I'm like, well   Pamela (06:11) Yes, I j I saw that, yeah. So true.   Tiffanie (06:16) We need that reminder though, kind of like the McDonald's coffee cup that now has, you know, since nineteen ninety or whatever it was, says that the contents are hot. Like humanity needs those reminders 'cause I think we're so it's like a it's a catch to me too, 'cause I do think we're so quick to jump onto things and try them. But   Pamela (06:34) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (06:34) at the same time we're like second guessing and   thinking we can't and thinking they don't work, but we do latch on to certain things where we're just like, wait, that was expected. I expected to be able to drink my coffee as soon as you handed it to me. You know, that it wasn't gonna be scalding hot, that I could just just go. And same with the AI. I think there's so many aspects of it that we just expected all of the truth to be on the internet somewhere. We've been primed that the truth is on the internet and   we just expected it to be true that now chat is like, hey, wait a second, like, hey, I'm just like your buddy who did the research online, the same as your friend next door. Like this   Pamela (07:09) Right.   Tiffanie (07:13) could be wrong. And I think it's an interesting thought because to your point of view, handing over your cycle management, your your revenue and all of that data, handing that over to AI and expecting it to just be perfect from here on out with no mistakes is wild.   Right, but we're doing it. So many of us are doing it. Similarly to the online scheduling. I know we have a lot of practices and we have some doctors that have spoken for us at our events. we had one last September that our doctor focused on AI, and she pointed out the facts of needing to train their AI the same as they're training a human. Like you get a   Pamela (07:51) Yeah, yes. Yes.   Tiffanie (07:54) result and you're like, you got that result, you're fired, you're done, we give up.   You say, actually,   Let's tweak it to be what we want it to be. So we're saying yes and okay, cool. And let's do it this way. Let's move it this direction. with that statement, you also said insurance verifications, making sure they're accurate. And it made me think too, we've always said, you know, good information in is good information out, bad information in is bad information out. And I think   That's the same with any of it, with any of the AI tools or any of it, right? The it can only scour the internet for so much information and find so much truth. With the good information in, that goes as far as everything. So whatever it is that we're asking and training these systems and these tools to produce is what we're going to get. So we're not spending the time with the AI and we're not spending the time saying, This is the result that I want, this is how I want you to get there.   we're doing a disservice to ourselves just the same as so many people we were just talking about this. So many people are still misusing or underutilizing tools that we've had for gosh, at this point I always say 30 years, but at this point I think it's going on like 40 years, right? Like we've had these tools for   Pamela (09:12) Exactly, yeah.   Tiffanie (09:14) a long time. We're still   Pamela (09:16) Yeah.   Tiffanie (09:16) misusing them because I know both of us have walked into offices where they're like changing the prices in the treatment plan.   And they're doing all this math and there's a calculator. I still have offices that have the calculators that have the tape, and I'm like, where are you even where do you buy the tape anymore? Right. But they do, they have this running tab. And I'm like, what are you doing? And they say, Well, it's never right. We always have a balance. And I'm like, Okay, this is like a band-aid fix, right? So no matter what technology you have, there's so much tech that saves us so much time. And that's the point of this conversation is what kind of tech is out there that can   save our team   Pamela (09:52) Mm.   Tiffanie (09:53) time. And a lot of that time is for the administrative team, gives them the the chance to do other things, right? So automating things gets rid of busy work, allows them to do other things. But if we're not utilizing the tool correctly from the get-go, it's not saving the time because we're going back and fixing it anyway. So maybe we're saving time on we have an online scheduling app and it works. So our team maybe doesn't have to answer as many new patient calls.   But then that same person is over here calculating by hand a treatment plan estimate. It's like, cool, well, we just like took nonsensical   Pamela (10:28) Yeah.   Tiffanie (10:29) time and put it into a nonsensical time suck again. So, Pam, how   Pamela (10:33) Yeah. Yeah.   Tiffanie (10:35) are you helping the chain offices to really utilize the tools to actually save the time? And when they're not, so like that situation, how do we how do we get to the bottom of it? Because for me,   When I see somebody calculating treatment plan estimates because they always have a bill at the end, I'm like, cool, that's like a band-aid over this massive gash on your arm and it stopped the bleeding   Pamela (10:59) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (11:00) in that one spot, but it's not fixed. Like you still need stitches. How do we get to the bottom of it? And how do you help practices really figure out what truly is going to save them time and how they can get there?   Pamela (11:14) Yeah,   I think it goes back to basics. Before we layer on that AI piece of it, we have to have those basics in place. And you're right, there are a lot of practices and you know that are struggling with that. They're still doing things by hand. So, you know, have going back to the basics and having that correct verbiage, I think, is super important. to with the patient of knowing that.   There may be, it is an estimation, and there may be a difference when once your insurance pays. And you can offer to the patient, you know, if you would like to call, I don't like doing predeterminations, pre-D, I'm kind of against them. A lot of people still do them for larger treatment. I understand that. but for if you are to, you know, tell a patient, look, if if it's a credit.   we will get that credit right back to you within the month, right? have   Tiffanie (12:12) Mm-hmm.   Pamela (12:13) some sort of verbiage that gives you a little bit of out, but also be confident when you're prevent presenting those numbers if you've done the homework. So I think that's where it goes is back to the basics, making sure the basics are correct before you, you know, are giving that treatment plan to the patient. And then your verbiage is super important. And trusting it.   Tiffanie (12:36) Yeah, I totally agree.   And trusting it exactly. Being able to trust the system is huge. So making sure I think you're you're like spot on back to the basics, right? So making sure your verbiage is in line and making sure that the information that we're putting into the computer system is as accurate as possible. And you can use AI tools for that too, right? So we have   Pamela (12:55) Right. Right.   Tiffanie (12:56) AI tools this day and age that do insurance verifications and they upload it into the system.   They do all of the pieces. But then again, back to what we said earlier and how you said like this practice is like, we don't even look at it, right? Same thing. Like if you're if you're paying for an AI bot to go scour, get the information, put it into your system, and then you're turning around and you're like, well, it's always wrong, right? I I always have a balance or a credit. And so I calculate it just to double check, like, okay, maybe we need to look to see.   Further back, where is that miscalculation coming from? Because the insurance data in the system, the patient's data in the system, the right fee schedules, all of those pieces are feeding the tech and the intelligence, the information that it's spouting out to you. So it can only do so much. So if you've   Pamela (13:47) Right.   Tiffanie (13:48) got, you know, you didn't mark the you didn't you didn't tell the bot that you needed to mark that there was a downgrade. So you're you're having   crowns come back and there's two hundred dollar balance because it was downgraded, right? Well, stop hand calculating that and tell the bot to do it differently. Tell the system to do it differently. Whatever your system   Pamela (14:06) That's right. That's right.   Tiffanie (14:08) is, there's a little button somewhere that you you click it and it says downgrades, right? Account for downgrades, etc. So utilizing those tools from the ground zero, I think is just massive and it's something that's been severely underutilized for a really long time.   that needs to be right first. Because then if we go in and we layer these AI bots on top of that, that data is what they're working with. Just like Dentrix can only give you a treatment plan based on the information that you put in there. You put the fee schedule, you put the percentages, you put the treatment plan. You did all the buttons, you clicked and you put the treatment plan. It spouts out these numbers based on the information you put in it. The bot's going to do the same thing. So I think that's our soapbox bot.   Pamela (14:55) yeah.   Tiffanie (14:55) situation there,   like we go on forever. Go for it.   Pamela (14:59) Yeah, no, I I agree and a lot. a lot of practices are struggling with this and they're because they're getting this AI and saying, Hey, it's not worth it. Like I'm still having to call the insurance company, I'm still having to, you know, calculate by hand, right? And I think it it does go back, like we said, to the basics and really digging down on that. And I mean continue to use AI, but like you said.   it's so interesting. You have to teach it, right? And you may not be able to look to say, this is the exact to the penny downgrade amount, but once you have taught it, you do need to trust it. Yeah. Yeah.   Tiffanie (15:40) Yeah, I agree. I love   it. Okay, what kind of tools? I've I've got a few, you know, that I'm I've been seeing the online scheduling, I think, is finally making it headway. It's been a tool that we've had for a really long time, but we've   Pamela (15:55) Yes.   Tiffanie (15:55) all been very afraid of it for good reasons. That's fine. But what are some other tools that you're seeing them implement? So AI bots, like what are what are your practices using them for that people could start looking at?   Make sure their foundations are correct. Start looking into how could we automate some busy work to give my team back time? What are you seeing out there in in dentistry right now, Pam?   Pamela (16:17) Yeah.   definitely the RCM, the revenue cycle management. I think that AI does a really great job with that. But the thing I I spoke about earlier is I the and getting to the root of the problem, if you don't want to have to manage it more, then you have to make sure your claims are clean. And what does that mean? And that's going back to basics, truly, as well. Like, are we taking all the photos? Are we taking   you know, all the blood points when probing. Are we doing are we doing everything we can do to make sure that they have as much information as they have. So I think RCM is kind of the number one I'm seeing. insurance verification, where a lot of practices are moving there. I think there's still a little struggle with that because we don't get the patient information a as quickly. And you know, I think most of the most of them say put it in two days before.   Tiffanie (17:15) Yeah.   Pamela (17:16) Patient communication, so even filling the schedule, right? texting people to say on an ASAP list, you know, those kind of things are being utilized very well. schedule optimum schedule optimization as well. So I think there are programs out there that help you say fill that schedule and say, here's the patients that would work in this hole, right? So I think it's   We have to accept that AI is here, right? so I think very, very to your point is yes, training it, but also yes, we do have to learn it. And it it will be it's one of those things. We're kind of lifelong learners, people in dentistry, because we always have new things coming. And so we have to look at it like this. This is just a a piece to learn, and the more we can learn about it, the better.   that we are gonna get. We can't just be afraid of it. I say dig right in, figure that, you know, whatever you're using, figure it out. Call the company, ask questions, ask the right questions, you know, what what how do I get my insurance verification better? You know, and let them help you and tell you because they know everyone doesn't know. And if you just like one and done, I'm leaving it alone, you're probably not gonna have   as good of experience as you could have with it. Yeah. And so I think doctors   Tiffanie (18:43) Yeah. Yeah, I love those.   Pamela (18:45) need to be a little bit aware aware. It takes time to learn. It's not just plug   Tiffanie (18:50) Yeah.   Pamela (18:50) and play.   Tiffanie (18:51) Yeah. And to piggyback off that, it sounds like making sure we still have KPIs in place, there's still somebody overseeing results, that somebody's still verifying that that employee, right, is doing the job right is key because if we're if we do have an AI bot that's helping with revenue cycle management, and then we're not looking at AR numbers, we're not seeing, you know, our over ninety.   decrease or or is it increasing like we're not watching those KPI points. That's how it gets lost. Just the same as somebody with a great resume comes in and says, hey, I'm gonna clean up your AR for you. Pay me X amount of dollars and we stick them in a corner and never look at it. Right? It's the same thing. So making sure those KPIs are in place. I think there's a ton of AI style tools that have come out for front office administrative work, which makes sense. You know, that's that's where AI   is in the administrative world right now as the recording of this podcast at least but something that I see a lot of practices using too and I think you have a few that are using them the like Pearl and Overjet AI systems for that second opinion at least I know a lot of doctors are liking that second opinion which has helped it's not I I think of it as busy work now but that like co-diagnosing space and really just that confidence   in what I'm diagnosing seems to come across a lot more from the doctors and those tools have been super beneficial as well. So I think there's starting to be this massive shift in the AI tech kind of industry where there is going to be more coming out for the the back office as well. And I think Pam, a lot of insurances are actually using systems like Pearl and Overjet, those AI tools to read x-rays and process claims a lot faster too.   Which to your point then they gotta be super clean. You're okay.   Pamela (20:45) Well, yeah, and and sorry, I totally did not mean to interrupt you,   but that that brings up something that I've thought about and I've heard from practices, a lot of claims are being denied, right?   Tiffanie (20:58) Yeah.   Pamela (20:58) More. I think it's up like by twenty percent over the last few   Tiffanie (21:01) I agree.   Pamela (21:01) years. And that's probably because they are using AI to read the x rays, and   Tiffanie (21:09) Yeah.   Pamela (21:09) there is no way the human eye can be as good as   an the AI assistance, you know, the tech   Tiffanie (21:19) Yeah. Yeah.   Pamela (21:20) the the radiology it it it that is going to become an AI job. So just in general.   Tiffanie (21:25) For sure.   Pamela (21:26) And so reading reading X rays, they're they're proficient. They're they're extremely intelligent at it. And so we need to jump on that bandwagon to make sure that we are seeing everything too. But   yeah, that's   Tiffanie (21:40) Yeah, agreed.   Pamela (21:41) very, very true.   Tiffanie (21:42) Yeah. And the same as the other AI tools, they have their variances as well. And you train those   Pamela (21:47) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (21:47) tools too. And you train yourself to see like, okay, well, this variance of that is like that's that's pretty extreme. I'm not like my practice doesn't diagnose that way. Cool, that's a watch for you, right? But at least it's being pointed out and you can compare. You can look at okay, what did last time look like versus this time? Which is super cool because that's not something you can do.   with just our eyes of that kind of comparison.   Pamela (22:11) Yeah.   Tiffanie (22:12) So whether you're diagnosing off of it or using it as a tool to see progress and change, train it, train it and train yourself just the same as you're training your scheduling bots.   Pamela (22:22) I I agree a hundred percent. And it it does have to be managed, right? It it does have to we have to learn it and we have to manage and it i it's just not a one and done. Just yeah. So very sh very   Tiffanie (22:33) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love it.   There's so much tech to be found. I think some key ones that we can kind of action item here to go explore at least. I love the online scheduling tools if you're not using them yet. I think they're worth it. they weren't always. They have turned a corner. They are worth it. and Pam, I think even the scheduling   bots that answer, you know, new patient calls, things like that are taking over and they're doing really phenomenally. And then I think I would push to make sure your insurance information is accurate. obviously, you know, Pearl or Overjet kind of tools, those are phenomenal too. But I think starting with those scheduling and those insurances, if you're not using those tools yet, I think it's worth looking into because I really do think that revenue cycle management, all of those pieces are   hugely beneficial at this point. So do your homework. Go ahead.   Pamela (23:30) I agree and I think I think   it yeah, do your homework and I think it's exciting what's happening in with the voice activation. I don't think it's quite   Tiffanie (23:38) Mm-hmm.   Pamela (23:39) there yet, but that is something I know dental offices are very hungry for. I know it's a little intimidating, but when it gets better, and I I think it's developed huge amount from when I was in the office because it d had   Tiffanie (23:53) Yeah.   Pamela (23:54) just started. and you know, I think   Offices are really looking forward to that and doctors are looking for their notes to help with their notes, right?   Tiffanie (24:05) Yeah.   Pamela (24:05) So I think those are the two big areas that we want to watch   Tiffanie (24:08) Yeah.   Pamela (24:09) and really keep abreast of what's going on and you know, keep automating and you can do it slow and it shouldn't be intimidating.   Tiffanie (24:18) Yeah, I completely agree. I think slow is fast these days. Everything's changing so much. It's worth it to do   Pamela (24:24) Yeah.   Tiffanie (24:25) your due diligence and make sure that you're using it correctly and to its full extent. So I love it. Thank you so much, Pam. This was a lot of fun. I know that the AI tech world is your jam. you do a lot of introspective work on it and just it's a big conversation topic for you. So thank you for   Being on here with me today and being willing to share your knowledge.   Pamela (24:49) Thank you, thank you. I love AI and I can't wait to buy a robot.   Tiffanie (24:54) Yeah, no right. That's what a our   we have an almost 13-year-old in the house and he's ready to buy one, ready to build them, ready to go. I love it. I love it. Of course.   Pamela (25:02) I know, it's it's very cool. Well thank you for the time, Tiffanie. It was great to talk about this.   Tiffanie (25:09) Thanks, fam. Awesome. Okay, listeners, share this with a buddy. share some information you might have. You might be trying something in your practice now. Drop us a five-star review below and call that out. People do read through those comments.   or if you're on our socials, put it in the comments section. You guys have some conversations about this. There's a lot to be learned here and there's so much to be shared. I know we had a doctor speaking on how she's using AI, but then we also just had a massive conversation in our doctor's only mastermind last Tuesday about AI tools, AI bots, kind of how different practices are using them. So it's a huge conversation. Get it rolling in there, get on board with some other doctors and share these tools with each other.   Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If you need anything from us at all, we are always happy to share all of the knowledge that we have and we're always happy to help you in your practice on your journey towards an amazing rest of the year. Thanks so much guys and we'll catch you next time.  

DR'We Know We Got This Wrong': Target Apologises and Pulls 'Offensive' Halloween Costume After Racist Backlash; Target Executive Chair Brian Cornell Sells 50,000 Shares for $8.2 Million; WHO DO YOU BLAME?Executive Chair/former CEO (since 2014) Brian Cornell: still 21% influence!CEO Michael Fiddelke: 16% influence; started at Target in 2003; formerly COO and CFOWhy does the corporate page not list his years of service in two separate bios??Dmitri Stockton: 8 years tenure; the double-DEI hater (Deere & Company) Mr. Stockton provides the Board with senior leadership, marketing / design / brands, human capital management, capital deployment, information security / data privacy, financial management, risk management, reputation management, and sustainability and governance skills developed over his more than 30 years of service with General Electric Company in senior leadership positions with escalating levels of responsibilityMarketing / Design / Brands: Target's brand and focus on style and design are the cornerstones of our strategy to offer a preferred shopping experience for our guests that differentiates us in the marketplace.Reputation management: To be successful, we must preserve, grow, and leverage the value of our reputation with our guests, Team Members, vendors, and our shareholders and appropriately respond to crisis events affecting them.A random executive?Chief Merchandising Officer Cara Sylvester: joined Target in 2007Chief Community and Stakeholder Engagement Officer Kiera Fernandez: joined Target in 2001Chief Stores Officer Adrienne Costanzo: joined Target in 2004Black CFO representation falls 25% from 2021 peak as diversity levels off: The number of Black finance chiefs in Fortune 500 and S&P 500 companies ticked down to 15 this year, according to the report from Crist Kolder Associates. WHO DO YOU BLAME?Tractor Supply Co.: Fully eliminated its DEI goals, retired carbon emission targets, and withdrew sponsorships from social and cultural events.Deere & Company: Ended participation in social awareness parades and pledged to eliminate diversity quotas and identity-based affinity group funding.Target: Scaled back its "Racial Equity Action and Change" roadmap, modified its strategy for Pride Month merchandise, and adjusted internal diversity goals.Walmart: Ended key equity training programs, modified its third-party seller guidelines, and scaled back specific minority supplier programs.Lowe's: Ended participation in external LGBTQ+ advocacy surveys and consolidated its employee resource groups under a centralized oversight structure.Ford Motor Company: Scaled back internal diversity targets, stopped participating in third-party workplace index surveys, and unlinked executive pay from DEI metrics.Harley-Davidson: Discontinued its dedicated DEI function, eliminated diversity quotas for supplier contracts, and ended HRC index reporting.Molson Coors: Removed DEI quotas from executive incentive plans and stepped back from external diversity rankings.Meta: Reorganized its human resources departments, eliminating specialized DEI teams and specific supplier diversity programs in favor of broader recruitment practices.Amazon: Phased out several internal affinity programs and explicit representation targets for hiring.McDonald's: Retired numerical demographic goals for senior management roles and paused external workplace diversity surveys.Goldman Sachs: Ended its policy requiring companies it takes public to have at least one diverse board member.The double (and triple?) dippers:Dmitri Stockton: director at Target & DeereJohn May CEO/Chair Deere & Ford Motor directorMarvin Ellison: CEO/Chair at Lowe's after 15 years at TargetJim Farley: CEO Ford Motor & McDonald's director & former Harley-Davison director MMTrump 2.0/ElonShareholder opposition to executive pay eases globallyEurope: NO VOTES for past year fell nearly 6 percentage points year-over-year to 25.2%, the lowest average level since at least 2018.United States: Say on Pay Average Support (S&P 500): Rose to 90.4% (up from 89.7%). Failed Votes (12 years tenure, only 4 of the 11 directors got tagged as having meritThe number of committees - SIX different committees with SIX members in each (except audit which is 5) for 10 directors at the time - they needed to add ANYONE because they were exhausted from so many committee meetingsRich Stoddart DRMember of Nom/CG (also Audit, “Innovation”, and “Social Responsibility”)Was CEO of Leo Burnett - advertising agency that handled massive portion of Nestle USA advertising. Presley was CEO of Nestle USA.Callaway Golf CEO met with backlash over apology for Good Good video depicting abuseThe ad: In the footage, Good Good personality Garrett Clark charges at Alexis Miestowski, knocks her onto the grass, then stands over her and says, "Do not touch my new driver."The company issued a statement on Friday, but CEO Chip Brewer did a social media post this morning stating: "That approval should never have happened. Mistakes were made, and we are taking the matter very seriously. I want to make it clear that we sincerely apologize for the video." He did not apologize to women.WHO DO YOU BLAME?EVP and President of Callaway Golf Glenn Hickey who leads sales and marketing, whose prior work includes being a bond trader and getting a business degree from San Diego State, but was absent for the “don't shove a woman in an ad” lesson (possibly)Good Good and its CEO Matt Kendrick who made the ad for Callaway and posted, “Interesting that @CallawayGolf asks us to make an ad then approves it then asks us to take the fall then drops us in a coordinated media blitz and covers it up by giving a million dollars away thinking everyone will be ok with it. 30 for 39 will be legendary.” He also apologized. But clearly more annoyed at Callaway than, you know, sorry for women?The women on the board and the management team - they should have caught this before it got out! Oh, what? There's TWO women on the board (one auditor who is ex-Boeing, a company with no challenges, and the other a Chief People Officer at a food company) and ONE woman in management (Chief People Officer)? None of whom would have seen the ad??? Oops.Tom Dundon - who, according to the Callaway 2026 Proxy Statement, has been a director since “not applicable” - but does own more than 10% of the stock and has 56% influence over the company according to Free Float data MM

 Welcome to the emDOCs.net podcast! Join us as we review our high-yield posts from our website emDOCs.net.Today on the emDOCs cast Brit Long covers part 1 of multiple myeloma: initial presentation and hematologic, renal, and calcium issues. To continue to make this a worthwhile podcast for you to listen to, we appreciate any feedback and comments you may have for us. Please let us know!Subscribe to the podcast on one of the many platforms below:Apple iTunesSpotifyGoogle PlaySend us Fan Mail

Adam kicks off the episode with a “Where Are They Now” segment of an iconic 90s character! With school back in session and kids bringing their lunch, the boys bring their Mount Rushmore of sandwiches. Burk has some half baked ideas to get off his chest and we end the intro with a CLASSIC perfect song! In the meat, Mm!, of the episode, is a draft of things that are red. We draft VERY different lists. Who ya got?! We close the show by getting together with friends to look through all of our kodak camera pics. Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

Don’t get left behind in the AI shift! Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this critical conversation, Vince Menzione sits down with Shannon Sigmon, Marc Harpster, and Jeff Mesnik to uncover how the rapid pace of change in the Google Cloud Marketplace and AI agent integration is forcing organizations to completely rethink their go-to-market strategies. They break down why traditional three-year business plans are dead, replacing them with agile 100-day sprints to keep up with the shifting ecosystem. The panel reveals that leveraging your Adaptability Quotient (AQ) and turning data patterns into actionable co-sell motions are the only ways to survive the upcoming “agent age” and maintain a competitive edge. https://youtu.be/xIaABKU1jmM Key Takeaways Consistent messaging is required to gather actionable data and build trust with channel partners. Three-to-five-year business plans are obsolete, and leaders must now operate in 100-day sprints to keep pace with hyperscaler changes. Google Cloud Marketplace uniquely supports channel partners by allowing them to own the customer relationship and recognize top-line revenue. The rise of AI agents is shifting discovery away from traditional SEO, requiring ISVs to adapt how they provide access to their tools. Creating interactive content variations from a single asset helps train AI agents to discover and prioritize your solutions. Despite rapid digital transformation, human connection remains the ultimate deciding factor in enterprise software purchases. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags Adaptability Quotient, Google Cloud Marketplace, agentic age, co-sell motion, digital sales hub, private offers, propensity to buy, AI pattern analysis, hyperscaler CRM, interactive trivia content, product-led discovery. Transcript Shannon – Marc – Jeff AUDIO Podcast [00:00:00] Vince Menzione: That becomes the core of your data analysis because if you’re not submitting consistent content and submit, you know, consistent information, then you’re not gonna get information back. [00:00:13] Vince Menzione: You can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us. The way Hyperscalers are partnering, how AI is remaking the channel and what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:25] Vince Menzione: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner [00:00:26] Vince Menzione: Podcast. I’m Vince Menzione your host. And each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology, partnerships and outcomes. The voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the [00:00:46] Vince Menzione: strategy. [00:00:47] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because being in the room changes everything. Let’s start. [00:00:57] ——-: We have another incredible group of leaders coming up here and, uh, and friends of ultimate partner and, uh, Susan, do you need me for, okay, good. Come on up. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna invite you up and then have you each. Introduce yourself, uh, to this conversation. Shannon, it has been a great to see you. Yeah, great friend. [00:01:18] ——-: Been in, it was in Boca. Mark. Great to have you. Good to see you, sir. Jeff, great to have you. Uh, this is incredible. I’m, I’m excited for this conversation. So, uh, yeah, we talked about aq. We talked a little bit about AQ in this last session. Don’t, didn’t we? Yeah. [00:01:34] Shannon Sigmon: A little. [00:01:34] Vince Menzione: Why don’t we go, why don’t we have you, I wanna have you each introduce yourself, your role, your company mission, and, and, and everything here. [00:01:40] Vince Menzione: So why don’t we start with Shannon. [00:01:41] Shannon Sigmon: Um, hey, thank you Vince for having us again, um, here in Bellevue. It’s been great to meet with everybody and see some old friends. Uh, I’m at Software One, so Shannon Sigman, um, based on the East Coast, but I work at Software One I’m responsible for. Um, in my sales role, I’m responsible for our channel and digital sales organization in North America. [00:02:00] Shannon Sigmon: And then I also have, um, responsibility supporting Regina Ma and Freddie and our leadership team as the chief of staff. Um, and we’re focused software one, if you haven’t worked with us before, we’re focused on helping, um, helping our customers and partners deliver real financial impact in their business so they can afford some of the, the cool to do some of the cool stuff you were talking about in the earlier session. [00:02:20] Shannon Sigmon: And it’s, for us, it’s really about coming in on the front end and helping, um, our customers and our partners understand what they’re doing in their software stack, their cloud stack, and then how to, um, optimize that, rationalize the strategy and, and the implementation of of solutions. [00:02:36] Vince Menzione: And a global leader in the marketplace in [00:02:38] Shannon Sigmon: That’s right. [00:02:39] Shannon Sigmon: The, the number one Microsofts, um, we [00:02:41] Vince Menzione: used to say re reseller or ls. We used to all these different, [00:02:44] Shannon Sigmon: yeah. We, um, it’s funny, I was speaking last night. We fall into the scale solution provider. We’re d with Google and AWS. But, um, we operate very differently on the, on the North America market as a more of a boutique, uh, personalized experience than what a traditional dity is. [00:02:59] Shannon Sigmon: I’m less about the transaction and more about the impact and the, the outcomes and, and helping partners with their go-to-market strategy. [00:03:07] ——-: Awesome. Yeah. And sitting next to you, Marc I’ll let you introduce yourself ’cause this kind of ties in very nicely in [00:03:13] Marc Harpster: Yeah. [00:03:13] ——-: In terms of the work you do. [00:03:14] Marc Harpster: Uh, thanks Vince. [00:03:15] Marc Harpster: Uh, hi everyone. I’m Mark Harpster. I am part of the Google Cloud Marketplace organization. So, uh, guy who you just heard from on the last panel is my boss. Uh, I run strategic initiatives within the marketplace team. So this includes our channel program. Uh, so everyone who is. Uh, the partners who like to resell, uh, ISV software out our marketplace. [00:03:38] Marc Harpster: Uh, I have a team who works with, uh, all of you, and that includes distribution. Uh, and uh, then I also, we run, um, the, some of our, like the go to market strategic initiatives. So we have a. Uh, customer credit program that ISVs can take advantage of to help incentivize deals going through marketplace, uh, propensity to buy, uh, data that we can share. [00:04:02] Marc Harpster: Mm-hmm. Uh, a number of different programs along those lines. Uh, basically, uh, we’re we’re helping. You know, customers find the solutions that they want to buy and helping them buy from the who they wanna buy from. [00:04:14] ——-: Yeah. And you were out early. I mean, you’ve been in the, the, I I feel like Google was leaned in very early on the channel. [00:04:20] Marc Harpster: Yeah. [00:04:20] ——-: And it was a couple years now, right? [00:04:22] Marc Harpster: Yeah. I joined Google about two and a half years ago. Uh, I was, you know, at, at another, worked for another cloud marketplace before that. So I’ve, I’ve been in the marketplace space for, uh, over a decade now. Uh, I’m really passionate about it. And with the, to touch on your point, Vince, I think the one key advantage of Google is, you know, within the, our channel partners, uh, we have a huge, uh, partner network, uh, of, of, you know, channel resellers and, uh, system integrators. [00:04:52] Marc Harpster: Uh, and we actively want those channel partners to, you know, own the customer relationship, including all of the billing. Uh, channel partners tend to love this because we’re the only cloud marketplace that really supports sort of the ability to recognize top line revenue for the channel partners. Uh, and so that’s been a real, uh, you know, distinguishing factor. [00:05:11] Marc Harpster: And one thing I’m really excited about within our marketplace. [00:05:14] Vince Menzione: You got it right. Awesome, Jeff. Good to see you, sir. [00:05:17] Vince Menzione: Good to see you. Thank you. Thank you for having [00:05:19] Jeff Mesnik: me. Good to have you. [00:05:20] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:05:21] Vince Menzione: Tell us a little bit about your organization, about content amx. [00:05:24] Jeff Mesnik: Well, I’m honored to be here with, uh, these two. Yeah. [00:05:27] Jeff Mesnik: You know, and, and Vince obviously [00:05:29] Vince Menzione: Thank you. [00:05:29] Jeff Mesnik: But you know, our organization is really about coming back, and I’m not trying to plug tackle by you saying this, but we’re doing the blocking and tackling for organizations another. [00:05:40] Vince Menzione: That’s why I named the tackle. [00:05:41] Jeff Mesnik: Yeah, I know. It’s, it’s, it’s part of my every conversation now and I have to think about it, but we basically believe in the idea that trust is starting by consistency and expectation. [00:05:55] Jeff Mesnik: So a few years ago I was listening to, um, an event where Tim Couch and, um, Michelle Ragusa, McBain were talking and they said, partners respond to. You meeting and greet, you know, exceeding expectations. So one of those expectations should be consistent messaging to them and consistent messaging for them to send out to their customers. [00:06:15] Jeff Mesnik: And then the next step is that becomes the core of your data analysis, because if you’re not submitting consistent content and submit, you know, consistent information, then you’re not gonna get information back. So that information back then turns into sales opportunities because you’re not looking at. [00:06:34] Jeff Mesnik: Clicks or having a marketing person say, Hey, you know, this person just stopped by my booth. Or Hey, they downloaded a white paper. It’s patterns using AI to analyze and address and look at patterns and turn those patterns into actions. So, you know, we’ve been talking Shannon and Mark and I about those patterns and how to. [00:06:55] Jeff Mesnik: Respond to them to maybe do a co-sell motion if that’s what’s necessary, or to make sure that the partner is ready for the next step. We’re doing a program for Microsoft. Whoops. So we’re doing a program for Microsoft. Do I still have it? [00:07:11] Marc Harpster: Yeah, you’re [00:07:11] Marc Harpster: good. Um, that en enables the partners to learn about AI and then we can understand where they are in their AI path. [00:07:22] Vince Menzione: Awesome. So Shannon, uh, Regina, man. Freddy. Yeah. Also a great friend of, ultimate Partner. Been on stage, was on stage here a couple years ago. We talked about adaptability quotient. Uh, we, we took that, we took that back. Now we use it all the time. And I, you know, I want, I wanna cover with you what that means to your organization. [00:07:40] Vince Menzione: A lot has changed. [00:07:41] Shannon Sigmon: Yes. Still. Yeah. [00:07:42] Vince Menzione: Still changed. Yeah. And you work with multiple hyperscalers, so take us through like, how, how, how does. What is now Software One used to be crayon, now it’s software one Crayon, or it’s just software one. Now let’s talk about all the change and how you’re absorbing it, and then how are you taking it to market and being successful. [00:08:00] Shannon Sigmon: Yeah, it’s interesting. We spent time, gosh, two, three years ago now, um, talking about adaptability being the next superpower [00:08:07] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:08:07] Shannon Sigmon: Uh, of workforce, right? That it wasn’t just about having the experience, but with the rate at which. The pace at which change was happening, having, uh, uh, employees foundationally focused on curiosity and learning and con constant development. [00:08:23] Shannon Sigmon: Um, and my goodness, uh, this year alone, right? We we’re. We, it’s hard to keep up. Right? So this idea of creating a full three to five year plan, we’re, we’re creating sprints plans. Yes. Right. And sprint strategies. And so I do think when we look at our integration of the two companies as Crayon and Software one come together globally, um, that has been a critical mass. [00:08:47] Shannon Sigmon: Uh, issue for us to overcome, but also to get our employee base one feeling comfortable with the pace of change because it can, for those people who are, are not change agents, it can be really uncomfortable and, and stress inducing. Um, but also giving them space to, to try things, fail fast and learn from it. [00:09:07] Shannon Sigmon: And. Um, it, it, it infuses that adaptability quotient, infuses entrepreneurial spirit within the organization a bit. Um, but it has become, it is the superpower of the next generation is how, how quickly can you adapt to change, but not just adapt to it as it’s coming, but stay ahead of it, um, and stay ahead of what’s happening in the industry through communities like this so that you’re skating towards the puck, not waiting for the puck to hit you in between the eyeballs. [00:09:34] Vince Menzione: Yeah. How long are these sprint. I can’t even imagine doing a three-year plan any, any longer. Right. [00:09:39] Shannon Sigmon: I mean, we, there’s some intentionality behind it for us. So my, um, partner in crime, Sean, uh, er, who leads our rev ops, uh, function in North America, we, we sprint pretty fast. So we do leadership offsite every three months. [00:09:52] Shannon Sigmon: Um, and it’s not like it does, we don’t sit in a meeting conference room like this quite often. There’s. We’re running an Airbnb and we’re living and breathing and talking and tumbling rocks together in a real productive way. Um, and it forces our leadership team to not just work at an operational level, but like really down in the trenches at a personal level together to solve problems for our people. [00:10:15] Shannon Sigmon: For our culture, for our business future. And I think that has helped us stay ahead of what’s coming at us from both the hyperscaler community, from the economy, uh, and global, some of the global trends that we’re seeing. It helps us stay ahead of that. And I mean, as leaders, we can, we can conflict and, and, uh, debate in a closed, safe space to get to work through some of that. [00:10:38] Vince Menzione: Mark, what are you seeing? I mean, we were just talking to D about all the significant advances Yeah. In your organization and you work with all these amazing top resellers in the industry. Mm-hmm. Uh, Tony Voya is an old friend of mine’s. Been on the podcast a hundred times. Yeah. Ran another organization’s one of [00:10:54] Marc Harpster: Yeah. [00:10:54] Vince Menzione: Also one of the large, yeah. [00:10:57] Marc Harpster: Yeah. Tony’s great. Um, it’s interesting you mentioned working in sprints. We, we ourselves are even adapting into sort of the notion of like. What are you doing in the next a hundred days? [00:11:07] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. [00:11:07] Marc Harpster: Right? You can’t, that six months, a year is too long. It’s too long. So, you know, that’s just internally, uh, within Google Cloud. [00:11:14] Marc Harpster: But, uh, our, you know, I see this across, if, if we go back a decade ago, uh, you know, ISVs had to learn how to change to, to just to, to list a PayGo product in a marketplace. [00:11:28] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:28] Marc Harpster: Right. A whole new business model. Uh, and then, then we. Introduced the notion of like, Hey, it doesn’t have to just be pay, right? [00:11:36] Marc Harpster: It’s, yeah. Now we’re going to introduce the concept of a private offer, right? And how does that work? Right? And so you heard a lot of, uh, insights in the last panel about some of the changes you need to make to your sales organization and how do you adapt to that, right? And then there’s the change of like, well, what about the channel partners? [00:11:52] Marc Harpster: Right? Yeah. So every channel partner. Uh, in that I’ve been working with for the last eight, nine years, make the pivot to like, oh, we still have a place here. We have all these customer relationships and connections and hey, we can sell these things too. Right? But they have to figure out how the channel private offers feature works, right? [00:12:10] Marc Harpster: Um, distribution. Right. Then suddenly we’re, we’re, we’re bringing distributors back into the cloud marketplace world, you know, and they’re actually pushing us for like brand new things, like, Hey, we wanna, we want more APIs, right? And so I, I’ve seen. The entire community of partners. Be, be able to adapt to meet the customer where they are. [00:12:30] Marc Harpster: Right. And, and take advantage of the customer benefits of buying through marketplaces. And so now we’ve got another, another moment of great change, right? As we head kind of into the agent age. And every one of us is gonna have to, to be adaptable again. Yeah. And I think the notion of like. Whatcha gonna do in the next a hundred days? [00:12:47] Marc Harpster: Or like, what, what, what is the first thing that we, what are our priorities? How do we focus on, this is going to be key, right? ISVs need to, to understand, hey, how do, how do agents change the way we, uh, allow customers to access our tools and our software? Right? Uh, the channel needs to then understand like, well, what are we reselling agents? [00:13:07] Marc Harpster: Are we creating our own agents? Yes. Like, how does this change us? Right? And so it’s across the board, uh, and it’s gonna be a really. Fun, you know, rest next few months. [00:13:16] Vince Menzione: What are you seeing with regards to that? I was thinking about that as well. Like does the ISV create the agent or does the, the, the, the channel partner, the reseller, the Gs, I mean the GSIs [00:13:25] Marc Harpster: are involved here as well. [00:13:26] Marc Harpster: Certainly are, are, are, you know, I think DI mentioned this in the last panel. They, they’re, they’re creating agents, uh, you know, all over the place right now. But a lot of ISVs are as well. They recognize that they need to adapt. Right. And so I think we’re getting. Um, we’re getting really good participation, uh, from. [00:13:46] Marc Harpster: All sorts of partners and even, you know, the, the kind of traditional, uh, like what I call a reseller, they’re starting to figure it out as well. Right? Like, do I need to list my own agent? How do I do that? Right. And they’re coming to us seeking some guidance right now. Yeah. Are [00:14:01] Vince Menzione: you? [00:14:01] Shannon Sigmon: Yeah, I mean, I think we look at ourselves as customers. [00:14:03] Shannon Sigmon: You already heard that yesterday. Yeah. A lot on, from some of the Microsoft community. Um, we we’re starting to see pockets and um, we’re, we’re actually running our own company-wide hackathon in June. Um, specifically to intersect with copilot, Gemini, Claude, how do we get our teams on the ground level? Um, I loved what was said earlier, but it’s gotta be a, a bottoms up, tops down approach. [00:14:28] Shannon Sigmon: And the good thing for us is we have leadership support at the top down on, on the tinkering, on the learning, on the implementation. And now we’re working to build the skillset from the bottom up so that we can take some of those use cases to our customers and our partners and, and start to learn and adopt along the way. [00:14:45] Vince Menzione: So Jeff, you’ve been working with channel partners on the marketing side for many years on their go to market strategies. What are you seeing on your side of this aq? Or how are, how is AQ being absorbed and how are you thinking about this new world that we’re living in today? [00:14:58] Jeff Mesnik: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we work with 10,000 different types of channel partners and whether it’s through education or passing through and driving demand for them, and what we’re finding is there’s a little bit sometimes also a whiplash. [00:15:12] Jeff Mesnik: I mean, it’s like first it’s like, okay, we gotta go to the marketplace. Now we have ai, and now, oh wait, there’s these ISVs that can add value on top, and how do I do it together? So. Well, we’re, when we’re talking to these partners, we are trying to learn from the customers also who are bringing, because they’re adjusting their, you know, notions like, right? [00:15:34] Jeff Mesnik: You know, Shannon, you’re doing it every three months, [00:15:36] Shannon Sigmon: right? [00:15:36] Jeff Mesnik: So these poor partners, right? They’re trying to communicate and engage and work with the customer, and then all of a sudden it changes on a dime. So you need to have that instantaneous access to the. Information about what a customer is researching, what they’re doing, what they’re most interested in, and that’s really the important part to help with the, you know, adaptability quotient for these partners. [00:16:00] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:16:00] Jeff Mesnik: And for them to learn, they have to be pushed into it through a customer. Not just pushed into it from the vendor’s perspective. Also on the distributors are saying, Hey, let’s you know, go to my marketplace. Don’t go to Google’s marketplace. We are, we are Google’s marketplace. And it’s very, it can be very confusing. [00:16:18] Jeff Mesnik: So using AI you can understand what the customer’s needs are. You can enrich it by pulling in data from the different sources of information, whether it’s a CRM system or third party piece, and then use AI to actually define the next step that each partner can take so that they’re adapting faster and their sales team understands what to do next, and then go through some micro learnings or whatever it might be. [00:16:44] Jeff Mesnik: Mm-hmm. I love that. [00:16:45] Shannon Sigmon: Yeah. Yeah, and I was gonna say, Jeff and I are actually working together on a pilot. One of the things, and Vince, we talked about it, um, our teams internally are so consumed with the integration. [00:16:56] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:16:56] Shannon Sigmon: I was scared. There’s a lot of work going on behind the scenes. We pulled the plug really early on, at least getting our frontline sales force integrated last year. [00:17:04] Shannon Sigmon: So, at least to the market and to our customer and partner community, we were one company, but there’s a lot of system integration that’s still to come. And so, um, we, we’ve been partnered with Jeff and, and the content MX team because, um, a part of our cycles of getting our message out to market to our partners and helping them with their customer messaging is just the nurturing, the insights and leading the customer, leading the sellers through that sales Next. [00:17:27] Shannon Sigmon: Best step conversation. And so we’re, um, we’ll leverage some of the, the tools and the resources that that Jeff’s team is bringing to bear for us, because our marketing team has got integration work to go do. We’ve got rebranding and new websites to build and new processes to implement. And so for us that adaptability means realizing we can’t do it all ourselves. [00:17:48] Shannon Sigmon: And so we leveraged this community to connect with partners in the ecosystem who can help us. With our own solutioning of, of how we go to market and making sure we’re not missing the beat in those a hundred day sprints. [00:18:00] Vince Menzione: And you’re truly global. That’s right. As an organization. Right. So Switzerland is now the new headquarters that is right. [00:18:05] Vince Menzione: Nor was it Norway before and [00:18:06] Shannon Sigmon: yeah. [00:18:07] Vince Menzione: And then of course you’ve got the Americas [00:18:09] Vince Menzione: and [00:18:09] Shannon Sigmon: Yeah, we have our headquarter office here in Milwaukee and they’ve got a digital sales hub in Nashville, Tennessee. [00:18:13] Vince Menzione: Yeah. So. Bringing all those resources and then having all these people that have to adapt to change and then drive and go to market. [00:18:20] Shannon Sigmon: Yeah. [00:18:20] Vince Menzione: On top of that, [00:18:21] Shannon Sigmon: look, it just allows us to focus on what matters most, which is our customers, our partners, and our people. Um, and so leveraging our partner community, leveraging this network of folks that you’ve built helps us. We’ll continue to focus our team on the things that matter most for driving the business our results. [00:18:38] Shannon Sigmon: Um, we just announced earlier this week we had a bang up, um, Q1 and looking forward to that momentum carrying through the rest of the year. And, and it’s because of the partnerships and, and helping us to, to manage that adapt adaption of our business, um, going forward. [00:18:54] Vince Menzione: Mark, anything else from your side? [00:18:56] Marc Harpster: Uh, I just, I, I think, you know, platforms like yours are, are super exciting to me, and there’s a number of them that we’ve heard from over the last couple days. [00:19:06] Marc Harpster: You, you help all of us, every partner in the room, including the hyperscalers, you know, meet the customer where they are. And I think that’s increasingly important because as complicated as it’s for all of us to figure this out, it still has to be the customers at the center of it all. Right? And so we need to meet ’em where they are. [00:19:22] Vince Menzione: So what does real AI credibility look like for those partners? [00:19:27] Marc Harpster: Yeah, it’s, it’s a great question. Um, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, I’m fortunate to, to get to be at Google right now and we have, uh, uh, you know, we’re obviously working on a lot of things. Um, you know, we’ve been talking a lot about agents and, and, uh, you know. [00:19:45] Marc Harpster: What does it mean to, to listen agent and what’s that gonna do for the customer? Um, you know, I think it, it’s, it’s gonna have a big impact on how we co-sell. Right. I think we touched a little bit on this in the last panel. Uh, I think that, um, you know, customers, uh, are going to find their way to agents and it’s a different type of customer who’s gonna find it. [00:20:08] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:20:08] Marc Harpster: Uh, and I think that, you know, this opens up a real opportunity. Uh, for us to, you know, us as hyperscalers in the marketplace, to, um, kind of flip how things have been. Where traditionally it’s like, oh, you know, the ISV or, or the channel reseller sources the deal, and then we’re gonna register a deal in the, in the CRM, it’s gonna go over to, uh, you know, the, the, the hyperscaler CRM and then the sales rep’s gonna get involved. [00:20:34] Marc Harpster: I mean, that stuff is still gonna happen, still gonna be important, but now customers are gonna find their way to agents and now it’s, oh. The marketplace. [00:20:43] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:20:43] Marc Harpster: To get that information back out. Right. Or maybe they’re finding the content through a platform like Jeff’s, uh, and they go try something out and suddenly that’s the signal. [00:20:53] Marc Harpster: Right? And so we need to find a way to communicate that, I think a little more nimbly than we have in the past. Um, you know, so that’s a really big one. Um, and I think that like, uh, you know. The next, the next decade is really gonna be like, a little bit like the last decade was, uh, just as you know, in the last decade, really all these, all of the businesses that, you know, all of you guys in this room found a way to grow these astounding businesses, you know, in cloud. [00:21:21] Marc Harpster: And now I get to do the whole thing again in, you know, in the age of AI and agents. So I’m super excited for it. [00:21:27] Vince Menzione: Well, it, I think about SEO and product-led growth, almost like, oh, the agent’s gonna discover mm-hmm. Yeah. The solution in the marketplace, right? [00:21:35] Marc Harpster: Yeah. [00:21:35] Vince Menzione: So how do you think about go-to market strategies around that, right? [00:21:39] Vince Menzione: Yeah. ’cause, ’cause marketing changes dramatically, [00:21:41] Marc Harpster: right? [00:21:42] Vince Menzione: We were talking about that yesterday. [00:21:43] Marc Harpster: Yeah. Like when the agent is the one, finding [00:21:45] Vince Menzione: the agent is the one finding it, and it, it better be able to find it. ’cause then it’s gonna go search other places if it doesn’t. Yep. As if it’s not discoverable. [00:21:52] Vince Menzione: I think we all get to figure that out together. [00:21:54] Vince Menzione: Right. [00:21:54] Vince Menzione: Jeff, you’re, you’re the go-to-market expert, [00:21:57] Jeff Mesnik: I mean, [00:21:57] Vince Menzione: in the panel here. So how do you think about that? [00:22:00] Jeff Mesnik: We think about it the same way, kind of in your video, right? Yeah. Where it’s basically there’s a few ways that you need to be, um, reaching out so that you’re discovered by the AI agent. [00:22:10] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:22:10] Jeff Mesnik: So exactly the, you know, for example, you, you know, people here we are all writing white papers and case studies and, you know, doing all that work. [00:22:18] Jeff Mesnik: But what really triggers it is when you create more content from that one piece. So that’s more interactive. So for example, like, you know, you guys were talking about the short, the video shorts. [00:22:29] Shannon Sigmon: Yeah. [00:22:29] Jeff Mesnik: You can instantaneously, like we have a system that’s connected that instantaneously creates these video shorts from the PDF. [00:22:36] Jeff Mesnik: Or some of you may have seen I created a trivia night, which is an interactive element, so it enables people to then share and engage, and that starts to have, you know, some effect with the SEO, which is now. AI agents who are looking out to see, okay, what are the responses? What are the other people saying? [00:22:57] Jeff Mesnik: You’re spearheading that motion. [00:23:00] Jeff Mesnik: Yeah. [00:23:00] Jeff Mesnik: And then as you said, kind of the, kind of the triggers or the, you know, the, for the data insights that come back mm-hmm. From that are the ones that can trigger a co-sell motion where you’re working together with. Other partners you can be, you know, if you’re a vendor and you use us and you see that information, then maybe partner tap comes in and you can basically find which partner is the right one, and the systems can then target and have a co-sell motion together. [00:23:27] Jeff Mesnik: Yeah. [00:23:27] Jeff Mesnik: Right. So that’s the power that’s available now. [00:23:30] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Shannon, you mentioned about skating where the puck is going. Yeah. Famous. What, by the way, Wayne Gretzky lives in Jupiter, Florida. For those who dunno, uh, all the famous athletes, but of course that’s his, his quote. [00:23:42] Vince Menzione: And Joe Namath. Right. [00:23:43] Vince Menzione: And Joe NamUs. [00:23:44] Vince Menzione: Yeah, he’s in the, he’s in that one picture though slide. I have. Let’s talk about that a little bit. ’cause you, you’re navigating quite a bit of change. One of the most trusted resellers in the market working with the hyperscalers. Tell us how you’re adapting to that puck, where that puck is going. [00:24:01] Shannon Sigmon: Yeah, I, I think one of the things that we encourage and we talk about it, we, um, have a regular standing, uh, meeting where we talk about going out in the wild. [00:24:09] Shannon Sigmon: And so I think the, the most important thing that I would leave you all with and something that we are, um, fostering and learning along the way too, is your people in this whole A-E-O-G-E-O world. Your people have to have an opinion. It’s not just enough for them to share the content, click on the content, read the content, but they have to show up with a perspective or an opinion. [00:24:30] Shannon Sigmon: I don’t, I don’t need to be Jay McBain, but my goodness, I’m gonna follow him. I’m gonna learn from him, and I’m gonna share some of the learnings that I read from him because. He’s doing the work and, and getting the research together for us. But it is important that they do that and the, and the learning and adapting to where the puck is going, doesn’t happen behind a pane of glass. [00:24:47] Shannon Sigmon: They have to be out in front of it, in front of their customers, in front of partners, having a cup of coffee down the street with the neighbors. Because everybody is now consuming information in a much more personal way. It’s not, uh, just a corporate feed, uh, trough of AI slop that, um, somebody I was at an event last week they talked about, but to, to really understand it, to know it to be customer zero. [00:25:13] Shannon Sigmon: You have to be in it. And that doesn’t happen behind the pane of glass. So I would say that was probably the first one. And I think, um, one of the things that, uh, sparked, you know, a fire yesterday for me, Vince, was just really this conversation around the marketplace. Um, and especially in our, our, our community and what we do is how do we, this convergence of SaaS. [00:25:34] Shannon Sigmon: This convergence of consumption in the marketplace. Um, how do we as resellers help our customers optimize how they procure, um, their software in a much more modern way, um, and manage that along, along this journey so that they can take advantage of things coming up in ai. But I think those are like the two. [00:25:53] Shannon Sigmon: The one thing is just being curious, getting out in front of it and building your perspective. And you don’t have to be the smartest person in the room, but you do need an opinion. Um. And then showing up at events like this so that you can learn. [00:26:06] Vince Menzione: So Mark, uh, largest go to market shifts happening. I mean, the, the, the, the growth is astounding. [00:26:12] Vince Menzione: What about from your perspective? [00:26:14] Marc Harpster: Yeah, I think, um, you know, how you go to market, uh, in, in this new age is gonna change based on the type of partner that you are, right? Uh, if you’re an AI native startup, then you know that is your go to market. Like, like the AI is who you are, right? It’s part of your identity. [00:26:35] Marc Harpster: Versus if you’re a a, you know, a, a, an incumbent, a, a large ISV, you need to figure out how to wrap AI around your existing solutions, right? Mm-hmm. But if you may have a SaaS solution, and now do you have agents that are talking to that SaaS solution? You know, and are you building that? Where are you building that? [00:26:50] Marc Harpster: How are you running it? And how are you partnering with, you know, the hyperscalers? Uh, how are you partnering? You know, it could be, uh, philanthropic or open ai, right? Mm-hmm. Like we all have to, you know, you have to think about. How each of these different types of partners can help you go to market, right? [00:27:08] Marc Harpster: And really come up with that strategy. [00:27:13] Vince Menzione: Former. Any comments on that? [00:27:14] Jeff Mesnik: Yeah, well, I mean, I’ll just add, I, I just was thinking about this, uh, I’m gonna butcher this Bueller quote, but things are changing really fast, and you gotta take a moment to listen and understand what’s going on out there. So the data coming in is always going to drive everything else that you do. [00:27:30] Jeff Mesnik: So I butchered that quote, but imagine I said it right? [00:27:33] Vince Menzione: Yeah. I, I love Shannon, what you said it, and I’ll. Paraphrase it. The analog is the new digital. [00:27:42] Shannon Sigmon: It is, yeah. [00:27:43] Vince Menzione: Because we need rooms like this. We need to be in the room with other listen experts like [00:27:48] Shannon Sigmon: yourselves. Yeah. I mean, I say quite often human connection still matters, and at the end of the day, people are gonna use AI tools to do the research, to find the information, to surface the video training, but they’re not gonna make the decision until they know the person they’re buying from. [00:28:03] Shannon Sigmon: Yeah. And so that whole adage of people buy from people they like and trust. Is even more important in this, in this day and age. Yeah. [00:28:12] Vince Menzione: Any last comments or go tos for the, for this community? In front of us today. [00:28:17] Jeff Mesnik: I’ll just say that because of this community, you know, Shannon and I met, so we have yeah. [00:28:21] Jeff Mesnik: Great business that we’re gonna be doing together and I met the team at ISSI and we’ve got a great partnership that’s brewing. And, you know, I’m looking forward to other, you know, people that I’ve met here, um, Andrew who’s out there. Um, we’re gonna do some work together. So thank you, Vince. Thank you. I mean, this community has really been fabulous for me personally and for my business. [00:28:39] Jeff Mesnik: It’s been great meeting [00:28:40] Vince Menzione: and I didn’t pay you to say that, by the way. [00:28:42] Jeff Mesnik: No, I paid you. [00:28:44] Vince Menzione: That’s right. You did. You. Okay. Well, alright, mark, anything, any last comments from [00:28:52] Marc Harpster: Yeah. You know, um, don’t be afraid of the change, right? Like, if you have that hour a week, just go play around with play, play with all of the different, uh, AI. [00:29:02] Marc Harpster: Technologies that are out there, right. And just, uh, get to know them, right? The more comfortable you are with them, the easier this whole thing’s gonna be. So dedicate an hour a week, just go, you know, and that’s your time to, to learn how these things work, right? So [00:29:15] Vince Menzione: yeah, [00:29:15] Marc Harpster: I say don’t be afraid of it. [00:29:16] Vince Menzione: Awesome. [00:29:17] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Thank you so much. What a great panel. Great conversation. What do you think? Everyone? Thank you. Thank you so much. [00:29:25] Vince Menzione: Thanks for listening to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. If today’s conversation resonated. Share it with a [00:29:31] Vince Menzione: partner leader in your network. Subscribe where you listen, and head over to the Ultimate partner.com for show notes related content and the resources for this episode. [00:29:42] Vince Menzione: And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live event in Reston, Virginia, October 26th through October 28th. Until next time, keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything.

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In episode 503 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their deep dive into Luke 10:25–37 — the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Far from a simple morality tale about helping strangers, this episode unpacks the parable's confrontational legal context, its reversal of expectation, and its profound Christological undertones. Tony and Jesse examine why the lawyer's question about self-justification was always destined to be unanswerable on his own terms, how the priest and Levite serve as a damning mirror for religious professionals, and why the Samaritan's lavish, costly mercy points beyond mere ethics to the gospel itself. The episode also explores the Mary and Martha account that immediately follows, arguing it cannot be read in isolation. Closing with Matthew Henry, the hosts land the discussion squarely on gratitude for Christ, the supreme Good Neighbor. Key Takeaways The parable is fundamentally about self-justification, not mercy ministry. The lawyer's question — "Who is my neighbor?" — is a legal maneuver, and Jesus' answer exposes the impossibility of fulfilling the law through self-effort rather than merely defining the scope of neighborly obligation. Jesus reverses the expected identification of "the neighbor." The listener naturally assumes the beaten man is the neighbor to be loved, but the punchline identifies the Samaritan — the one who showed mercy — as the neighbor, redirecting the question from who must I love to what does love actually look like. The Samaritan's mercy is deliberately, impossibly lavish. His actions — binding wounds, providing transport, paying an open-ended debt for a stranger and likely an enemy — exceed anything a reasonable person would do, pointing to a mercy that transcends mere human virtue. The priest and Levite indict religious professionalism. Their failure is not incidental; it demonstrates that meticulous law observance and ceremonial religiosity can actually obstruct the very love the law commands, hollowing out its spirit while preserving its form. The parable functions under all three uses of the law. For the unregenerate, it terrifies and condemns. For the regenerate, it is a third-use call to Spirit-empowered, grateful obedience. As civil law, it commends a society of compassion over indifference. Christ is the typological Good Neighbor. The Samaritan's actions — pouring oil and wine, bearing the cost, promising to return and settle all debts — carry genuine Christological resonance without requiring a full allegorical reading of every detail. The immediately following Mary and Martha account is thematically inseparable. Luke's editorial placement of that narrative directly after the parable creates a deliberate counterpoint: the one thing necessary is not anxious service but sitting at the feet of Jesus. Key Concepts The Lawyer's Question Was Never Going to Work The lawyer who approaches Jesus in Luke 10 is not a neutral inquirer — he is, as Luke tells us, seeking to justify himself. Tony and Jesse explore what this means with precision: the desire to be justified is not inherently wrong, but the mechanism the lawyer employs — the law — is catastrophically insufficient for the task. When Jesus responds with the parable, he does not sidestep the legal framework; he weaponizes it. The Samaritan's mercy is so extravagant, so far beyond ordinary moral expectation, that it functions not as an achievable standard but as a devastating exposure of how far short every human attempt at law-keeping falls. The command "go and do likewise" is not an encouraging send-off — it is, for the self-justifying lawyer, a door slamming shut. The Samaritan's Mercy Is Intentionally Beyond Reach One of the most important contributions this episode makes is resisting the domestication of the Samaritan's actions into a feel-good story about helping those in need. Tony reframes the scenario in contemporary terms: finding a gravely injured stranger from a hostile ethnic group, providing emergency first aid, transporting them to care, and writing a blank check for all future medical expenses — with no personal obligation to do so. No reasonable person would do this, and that is exactly the point. The mercy described is not aspirationally difficult; it is humanly inconceivable at scale. This is what Christ-like love looks like, and it is precisely what the law demands. The gap between the demand and human capacity is the gospel's entry point. The Mary and Martha Account Cannot Be Separated from the Parable Tony raises a hermeneutical observation that deserves more attention than it typically receives: Luke chose to place the Mary and Martha account immediately after the Good Samaritan parable, and that editorial decision is not accidental. Martha — busy with hospitality and service — looks, on the surface, like the practical application of everything the Samaritan modeled. Yet she is gently rebuked, and Mary, who sits at Jesus' feet, is commended for choosing "the one thing necessary." This creates a stunning theological counterweight: the parable exposes the impossibility of self-justifying law-keeping, and the very next story shows that even well-intentioned merciful activity, when it crowds out receiving from Christ, misses the point. The one thing necessary is always Christ himself. Memorable Quotes If you think you're the good Samaritan, if you think you're the one that's gonna come and rescue people — you're much more likely to see this as a sort of law beat-down. Where those of us who are regenerated and in Christ, this is third-use law. This is us seeing what it means to be holy, and going and doing likewise, trying in our power, recognizing that we can't, and trusting the Lord to accept our feeble attempts. - Tony Arsenal This text is not really to be preached or applied as some kind of bare moral exhortation. It's not 'try harder to be like the Samaritan.' That's totally disconnected from the gospel. It should be preached in a manner that exposes the impossibility of self-justification... and then of course it does point us to Christ as the one whose perfect, costly, self-giving mercy alone satisfies the law's demand on our behalf. - Jesse Schwamb If this parable and our conversation about it does nothing except stirring you to gratitude for the fact that our supreme good neighbor threw us on his donkey and carried us to the public house, and bound up our wounds, and paid for our debt — if it does nothing but drive you to gratitude and thankfulness and wonder, then we've succeeded in our task and we've left you with the Gospel. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 503 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, at this point, there's one thing that we know for certain, and that is if you're gonna come at the law giver, the one who's composed and written the law, with a legal question to try to entrap the one who has given you the law, you better not miss. And it turns out, in Luke 10 where we've been hanging out, the lawyer who poses Jesus with the question of, "Who is my neighbor?" is a big swing and a miss. Yeah. And we're finally gonna get to all the characters that are part of this amazing parable in this conversation. But of course, there's something we gotta do first. Affirmations And Denials Jesse Schwamb: It, it's everybody's, what I'm led to believe everybody's favorite segment of this entire show. I mean, the crowds out there say, "Why even have a full podcast? Just do affirmations and denials for the entire time." And we, we hear you, because we're borrowing from that beautiful confessional format of the dead reformers to settle all the much not confessional [00:02:00] disputes. So in the great tradition of the Westminster Divines, who of course cannot just simply say, "We like grace," without also clarifying 17 things that grace is not- ... we're now again going to bring you our own binding, authoritative, and entirely unneeded but very official statement of affirmations and denials. It's affirming the things we love and denying things we don't. So Tony, as is our own custom, are you affirming with something or are you denying against something on this episode?  Tony Arsenal: Um, I'm denying something. Uh, it's a sort of a weird situation that has cropped up, uh, online. And I, I try not to use this segment too often to sort of wade into, um, I don't know, the, like, latest social controversy in the Reformed world. But every once in a while I come across something that I feel like you just need to sort of talk about. And, um, many of our listeners are probably already [00:03:00] aware of the situation that I'm gonna talk about, and it's very well-publicized and, and very public. Um, but I'm denying the sort of weirdness that has happened with the G3 Conference. Um, I'm not sure how familiar with G3 you are, Jesse, but for the, the listener who may not be, G3 is a conference, um, primarily run by Baptists, and is, in my understanding, is primarily attended by sort of Reformed-ish Baptists. And I don't, I don't say Reformed-ish to be pejorative necessarily. Um, but it, it's sort of like predominantly, um Non-confessional but not anti-confessional Calvinistic Baptists, sort of think more like covenant framework MacArthur-style Baptists maybe is, is a way to look at it. Um, and a few years ago, one of their main figures, I don't remember exactly what position he held, but it was a relatively high position in, in [00:04:00] the conference. Uh, his name was Josh Boyce. He, uh, w- was caught/confessed to maintaining, like, multiple anonymous or pseudonymous, uh, Twitter accounts and publishing several s- like pseudonym-based Substacks, um, that he used to basically attack the character of not only anyone online that seemed to cross him, but, like, people that he shared an office with. Like, anyone and everyone was targeted by him. And at the time it was a big hullabaloo. He, uh, he resigned. As far as I can tell, he's faded into obscurity and has not sought to come back, although that's always, you know, yet to be seen. But at the time there was very firm statements by the r- remaining sort of board members, leadership of G3, at how inappropriate this was, and how acting anonymously requi- you know, sort of evacuates accountability and, [00:05:00]and all these different things. And it's come out recently, um, just over the last week, that four of the members of the G3 board, um, who are all elders at the same church, had assembled a sort of anonymous dossier of accusations against, um, a- another pastor, uh, that he had been sort of serially plagiarizing sermons. Um, and when nothing really happened when they sent their anonymous dossier, they started distributing this to other, other, like, platforms and other church and m- parachurch ministries, kind of encouraging people to do their own investigation. Um, one such, uh, outlet was ... It's a, it's a, I don't know, sort of a news discernment blogger kind of a thing, um, has done some pretty decent reporting work I think in, in the recent past, although it has sort of a s- storied beginning, um, called Protestia They did just [00:06:00] that. They did an investigation, and in the course of their investigation, they identified who these anonymous, uh, the anonymous reporters were, and it was the same, the very same people who a few years ago, uh, pontificated, uh, at, at length about the importance of accountability and how anonymity has, uh, taken that away. Uh, people that accepted Josh Boyce's resi- resignation for acting anonymously have now done the same thing. They have since, uh, resigned from their church eldership, um, which is gonna be awkward because they haven't resigned from the board of G3, which, uh, the offices of G3 are in the same building as the church that they've now resigned at. Uh, and I guess where, where my denial comes in and the reason that I feel like it, it might be worthwhile for us just to Even reflect on it a little bit is there is an element in the Reformed world that seeks a platform and seeks an audience and seeks notoriety, and I, I was musing [00:07:00] today a little bit on my own Twitter that th- there was a time in my life where that was very much what I wanted. I wanted to be a, a very public, well-known theological voice, and, um, a- and I just have sort of like drifted away from that. And the, the reason I think it's worth mentioning on our show is that we do have an audience. We have a, a modest audience. It's not huge. It's not nothing. Um, but th- there is a real temptation to seek fame and notoriety that is absolutely destructive and really antithetical to, uh, to Christian principles of what it means to serve those around you, to serve with humility, to r- you know, redound any glory that might come to you for your actions to, to the fact that it is Christ who empowers all things and brings all good blessings. So I don't know that I have much more commentary on it. It's just a weird... It's a very weird situation, but it, it seems like it very much has come from a [00:08:00] place of feeling as though minor slights by people you associate with warrant sort of a, a nuclear option like this because, uh... and I don't wanna read too much into motives, but, but it seems like because your reputation and your notoriety is so great that any offense to it needs to be responded to in kind, and that's just not, that's just not the Christian way. So again, I don't know that I have any more commentary or thoughts on it. It just was a weird situation that I'm, I'm like, "Why do we gotta do this to each other, folks?" Like, why are we, why are we biting at each other all the time? Why are we doing these things except from a place of sinful pride? So I'm denying that. I'm denying sinful pride. I'm denying my own tendencies to seek glory in a spotlight. Um, I'm very thankful that God did not, uh, see fit to grant me that desire 'cause it probably would've been even more destructive for me than it has been for these guys. So I'm very happy to live in obscurity, [00:09:00] to serve the local church, to share our voices in this very modest, tiny platform that we have, and perhaps the Lord will see fit to change that one direction or the other, and I'll, I'll be happy to serve at His, uh, at His will. But I'm glad for now that, uh, the, the temptation of international fame has not been something that I even have the opportunity to lay hold of. Um, I'm very thankful for that, that, uh, grace from the Lord.  Jesse Schwamb: I had that light, sarcastic, some might say somewhat humorous opening and affirmations and denials, and you, you just brought the heaviness, which is okay. Sometimes that's, sometimes that's what happens.  Lament Devotional Spotlight Jesse Schwamb: And- Yeah ... I- fortunately, I have an affirmation, but it's, uh, of, like, a weird, heavy kind now that I think about it. So, um, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get everybody on the cusp of good books that I think are coming out. And so here's another one where it's not even gonna be released until September 30th, and so you have plenty of time to go out and find this thing. So P&R Publishing, many may be [00:10:00] familiar, does this whole series, topical series, which are called 31-Day Devotionals for Life, and there's a new one being released by Christine Chappell. It's called Lament: Crying Out in Faith. So I'm affirming with this piece because I've had the joy of been working through some of this stuff, and I think this is some of the best treatment I've ever read, been able to practice, been coached into for lamenting. We've talked before at length about how Christians, especially in the West, often because we just have great lives, we aren't familiar with lament. We don't practice it well. We hardly sing any songs of lament. We're unfamiliar with it. It's like a foreign land to us. And then sometimes when we're, we get convicted we should lament, we kind of interpret that as, "Well, yeah, I, I know I can blow up at God. I can get angry with him and, and that's okay." David does it too, and it's okay to express all your feelings with God. What I like about this work is it cultivates more of a prayer language. It gives voice to pain and grief so that there can be a real healing. It's not just a complaining. It's not just [00:11:00] throwing your voice out into the ether to, you know, wildly pontificate or self-aggrandize about how hurt or upset you are. It enables us to cry out to God in such a way that it promotes emotional authenticity, but at the same time maintains reverence. I think that is, uh, at least what I need. The beauty of this book is somebody you know or yourself need to lament something. Actually, I think we all have something to lament, even as it's getting older or things changing in our lives. So I highly, highly, highly affirm with this book. It's Lament: Crying Out in Faith. P&R does a lot of great publishing in this way. It's just the year of the devotionals, Tony. I don't know why. Yeah. I mean, I even hate to use devotional. It's the year of good resources for daily praise and worship- Yeah ... and lament should be part of our praise and worship. Yeah. So, but doing it in the right way is something I'm learning. I had mixed understanding of it. So this will clarify, encourage, edify in all the ways that I think we need.  Tony Arsenal: That sounds great. I, I do agree with you. I think, um- [00:12:00] Although I think it may be a little bit less so in, in the sort of confessional Reformed tradition just because the Psalms in general play such a prominent role in Reformed worship. Um, I do agree with you that broadly, like, we, we in the Western evangelical w- world don't, we don't know how to do laments. Um, I'm not one of those people that would say im- imprecatory prayers are inappropriate. I know there are some even within the Reformed world that would say im- imprecatory prayers are not appropriate for God's people in, in the new covenant. Um, I don't know that I agree with that, but, but that's another example of, like, that's in the prayer and hymnbook of our people- Right ... and we don't really know how to do it. Yes. So, and, and imprecation and lament are very closely related to each other. They're, they're very similar, um, ways of thinking and they're, they're both kind of modes of prayer that, uh, we don't, we don't really engage in. And so when we do have- when the occasion arises, we're, like, out of practice. So that's a great, uh, a great [00:13:00]affirmation and yeah, a little, a little weirdly heavy. Maybe this is gonna be a, a weirdly heavy episode. Who knows?  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it very well could be.  Good Samaritan Deep Dive Jesse Schwamb: I mean, listen, it was no doubt heavy for the lawyer who stood up- True who was  Tony Arsenal: like- Nicely done ...  Jesse Schwamb: I'd like to justify myself, so Jesus, let me ask you, we took our question, "Who is my neighbor?" I do all these things. I'm down with the law. Yeah. I know all this stuff. And I think we had some really great conversation last time. I'm biased, but I think we had some really fantastic unpacking of the first part of this, and if you haven't heard that yet, you should go back and listen to episode 502. But in this episode, we're really getting into all of these wonderful and somewhat colorful characters. So I'm gonna pick us back up in Luke chapter 10, starting in verse 25. So I'm going back a little bit just to set that proper context for this amazing parable that Jesus tells us. So he says, "And behold, a scholar of the law stood up and was putting him," that is Jesus, "to the test, saying, 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' And he said to him, 'What is written in the law? How do you [00:14:00] read it?' And he answered and said, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.' And he said to him, 'You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live.' But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?' And Jesus replied and said, 'A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. And a priest happened to be going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise, a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him, and when he saw him, he felt compassion.'" And he came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them, and he put them on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And on the [00:15:00] next day, he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, "Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, when I return, I will repay you." Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands? And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, this is one of those parables we, we mentioned, uh, I guess we've invented a new classification of parables called the Big Daddy parables. That's right. Um, uh, this is one of those parables that is so ubiquitous and well-known, uh, that word there, choice there was a little hat tip to my Lutheran friends. Um, so ubiquitous and well-known that I think we actually can, can rush into a common understanding and not, not be right at all about it. And I think the, the way this, uh, uh, the way I've seen this commonly done in, in circles I've run in in the past is this [00:16:00] becomes a parable about mercy ministry. Um, and, and the primary point is about how we serve our neighbors. And I think there certainly is, um, there certainly is an element of that that we can glean from this, that Christ is making a commentary on the fact that, um, the, the, the right way to not only serve your neighbor but to even identify your neighbor, uh, and it's funny because I think this is, this is where I think people go wrong. The, the Samar- or the, um, the, the lawyer is asking, "Who is my neighbor?" Right. And I think we commonly read this, and we read it to say, well, the Samaritan, uh, or the, the guy who got beat up is the neighbor. Right. And so we have to serve our neighbor like the Samaritan did. But the, the, the punchline, whatever, of the story is that the Samaritan is the g- is the neighbor, right? We, we call this the Parable of the Good Samaritan, but we might wanna call it the [00:17:00] Parable of the Good Neighbor. And so it says more about what it means to be a good neighbor than it does to, um, to say about who, who our neighbor necessarily is, right? The, the s- uh, the lawyer was asking, "Who's my neighbor?" And the answer was the one who shows mercy. And there's kind of a weird, there's kind of a weird paradox there, and this is something Jesus commonly does, where, like, He doesn't really answer the question. Um, the, the lawyer is like, "Well, who is it that I have to love," right? "The, I have to love my neighbor as myself, and who is it that I have to love?" And Jesus' answer basically is like, "Well, the good neighbor is the one who showed mercy." Well, that doesn't answer- Right ... His question. So I think we have to be careful when we, uh, we work through this not to just sort of default and jump to what might be called, like, the lowest common denominator interpretation, right? These are things that, yes, um, there is something to say about, uh, mercy ministry and how important it is to serve the, [00:18:00] serve those around us who are in need, right? That's, that's the command that comes out of this or the outcome that comes out of this is Christ is commanding this, um, this lawyer to go and be merciful to others. Um- But if we, if we move too quickly to that, we miss a lot of what this has to say about the nature of justification- Right ... the nature of Christ as, as the capital T good neighbor, right? The, the good neighbor who, who takes care of our sin and pays the debt for us to be restored, right? I don't, like I said last week, I don't think that that is too on the nose. Um, I think we miss the fact that the question, uh, the question is coming from a place, and we talked about this a little bit last week, but and maybe we'll get into it a little more. The question is coming from a place, um, whether you view this negatively, like I think most do, and there's warrant for that, or whether you view it a, a little bit more neutrally or maybe even positively, which is where I land, the desire to justify or to be [00:19:00] justified is not a bad desire. And the, the text doesn't seem to offer a lot of commentary on the fact that the, the, um, lawyer is desiring to justify himself, other than the implied commentary o- of what the parable says about salvation in that someone else needs to save you, so you can't do it yourself in the first place. So I'm excited to get through this. Um, I, I think we're probably gonna be here, we're gonna camp out here for at least another week after this, 'cause there's just so much to this parable. Who knows? Maybe we'll fly through it and it'll be a quick conversation, but I, I don't... That's not really our jam. Um- That's not really what we do But yeah, it, it's, it's a big daddy parable. There's a lot here to unpack.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You're right about that. Interestingly, as always, Jesus flips the law, but here the law flipping, like, ends up smacking you in the face because it does start with this inquiry about just identify for me who my neighbors are. If you give me these discrete instructions like the law has given me to do all these things, which by the way, I mean, even that when we have this lawyer saying, [00:20:00] "I've done all these things. I've identified just for instance that the law includes loving the Lord God with everything, every part of who I am." He says like, "Yeah, I've done all these things." This is, I've already accomplished that. So now let me get, become self-justified in confirming I've done all these things. If you just tell me who the neighbors are, I'll be able to say to you, "Yep, I've already done that." Instead, what happens is Christ says, "Here's what neighborly love looks like. And what it's gonna look like is so dramatic and so shocking that you ought to take pity and have concern and show compassion for those not just who are unlike you, but are, like, abhorrent, those who you would even never identify with in the parable of the story I'm about to tell you." So I think there's all of that, like you said, to move away from just kind of categorizing this as a nice homily about how we ought to behave. However, there might be, like, some kind of moralistic theme in this that directs us toward actions of love and generosity, which by the way, could just be common grace. Those exist outside of strict belief and adherence to the gospel, and certainly can be far afield from actually loving Christ. [00:21:00] The other thing that I think sometimes happens with this, and I'm gonna be unpopular on this one, I'm afraid, but is that I think there is often a lot of allegorical excess. And certainly there are people more intelligent than I who really embrace that. So I'm looking at you, Patristic Fathers. Like, you know, if you wanna read some interesting stuff, everybody can go look up Origen or Augustine on this. Yeah. And they allegorize this parable in New England what we would call wicked fine detail. I mean, down, down to everything. So the oil and the- Yeah ... wine, the soil, each of the persons here representing something that in itself, like, everything. And I think that that is okay. What I struggle with on that is, and this is where I'm unpopular, I think, is that- There are a lot of other exegetes, I don't think I'm alone, that would look at this and say, "Yes, there is something about this that draws us into, like, just general typological resonance. I'm not gonna reject that." There are these, like, broader canonical themes of, like, helpless [00:22:00] humanity, like you said, and undeserved mercy. Those all legitimately, I think, echo the gospel truths. But I'm kind of resisting, or I'm prone to resist, treating every narrative detail in this as some kind of, like, independent cipher. Yeah. And so I think I want to come a little bit in criticizing, like, the allegorical method here, that instead what happens when we do that is we're, we're... I think we're obscuring a little bit Christ's actual didactic purpose, which is fundamentally ethical and legal, 'cause that's the question he's answering. He's trying to answer this question, "Who's my neighbor?" And he's gonna do it- Right ... with this definition-shattering example. And so I think, like, the most responsible hermeneutic here affirms that, like we said before, a parable should have a single main point, and it's determined in this context by that punchline, like you said. Um, at the same time, I think we can legitimately, like, permit some restrained theological reflection on, like, that broader resonance with the gospel. I'm not denying that. But without multiplying, like, allegorical [00:23:00] correspondences like the text itself doesn't even make. Even, even coming down to, like, who we see as Christ in the story, while that can be useful and helpful, it's not the same identification that we've seen in other parables. Yeah. So that's what makes this, like you're right, Tony, like, really unique and very interesting because we can draw lots and lots of parallels, and perhaps we should. But at the same time, it's always good to remember what is it that Jesus is on about here? What is it that the hearers were really being prone to understand and mull over and meditate on? And that's, like, this first principle of neighborly love, like you already called out.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I agree with you, too, is I, I think, um- We can sort of fall into a trap or a pit of assuming that all of the parables are meant to explain the same thing. Sure. And I think, like, within Matthew maybe that's a little bit more, uh, accurate because m- I think all, if not [00:24:00] most of, of the Matthean parables, you know, the Kingdom of God is like, the Kingdom of God is like. So th- like, that repeated f- refrain of, like, the Kingdom of God is... In, in Matthew, Christ is using parables to teach about the mysterious hidden reality of the kingdom in a way that people can understand. Um, this is different, right? This is not a Kingdom of God is like. There is no, um, clear this is like that, uh, introduction to this parable. Right. I, I've actually even read some commentaries that would question the assignment of the title parable to this, because they want to restrict what a parable is to those sort of kingdom, like, explicit simile- Good point ... things. Yeah. So- Right ... but I, I do think, um, w- we, we have to be careful not to run down that road, because this parable is not really... Again, like, it's not explaining what the Kingdom of God is like. This is trying to, um, not trying to, Christ is [00:25:00]articulating a reality that is baked into the law, um, and he's flipping the question on its head, and this is what I think is so, um, so wrong about the allegorical approach, right? Is that the allegorical approach seeks to find symbolism in every discrete character or element of the, of the parable, or of the, the allegory if you wanna, we wanna distinguish it. This really is, is trying to just get at that one point. And what- Mm-hmm ... I think is so, what must have been really just infuriating for this lawyer, um, regardless of what happened after this, right? We don't, we don't get commentary like we do with the rich, young ruler, and the stories are in many ways are very much the same. Like, it's the same basic setup. But we don't get commentary that, like, he went away sad, like we do with the rich, young ruler. We don't know what happened with this guy. We don't know what his reaction... But I, I'm sitting there putting myself in his place, and I'm, I'm thinking through this, and this is one of those things that it's actually hard even to mentally get yourself there. The, [00:26:00] the, each character that is introduced here, um, is a candidate for the neighbor. Right. But the most obvious candidate based on, um, the way we commonly interpret this, is that the dude who gets beat up and left stripped naked is, is the neighbor that we're supposed to love Right? So the lawyer, as he's hearing this parable, as it's being told, and the, the people who are there listening, right, the, the other people that are around, there's this character introduced, "Who is my neighbor? Well, a man was going down to Jerusalem. He fell among roggers, Roger, robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead." Like, the obvious answer is that Christ is introducing this poor, destitute, beat-up, naked dude, uh, as the neighbor that needs to be loved. And so he goes through the whole parable, and you're like, oh, well, like, the, you know, the, the priest and the Levite, they didn't love this guy. Uh, the Samaritan, you know, I think an audience of Jews probably would've been thinking like, "Well, the Samaritan can't be..." You know, the Samaritan [00:27:00] is just a dude. Like, none of these people are loving the, the, the beat-up dude like a neighbor should. Right. And then all of a sudden, Christ flips the script, and the neighbor is not the dude who's laying there naked, half dead, who's been rescued and, and, you know, restored and is being healed. It's actually the Samaritan. And so there's this... We have to... Part of the reason, I think, I mean, I, I, I guess I don't know for sure, but part of the reason I think s- that parables have this, like, reversal of expectation baked into many of them is that it is there to challenge our assumptions, and th- that sort of whiplash effect when you get to the end of it, you're like, "Whoa, that was like he was talking about totally, something totally different than what it seemed like he was talking about." I think that's actually a teaching tool here as well. Right. That the, the whole time you're thinking like, "Oh, this dude is the neighbor, and I've gotta figure out how to love him best," and that's what plays into these mercy ministry interpretations, is thinking that the, the point of the parable is to show us how to take [00:28:00] care of the, the people who need help, when really the point of the parable is the good neighbor. And, uh, we might butt heads a little bit on this, 'cause I think I take probably more of a Christological, uh, topological, typological interpretation than you do. I, I think that the point of the parable is that you can't justify yourself, and the only one who can justify you is the one who's kept the law perfectly. And what does it mean to keep the law perfectly? Well, love the Lord your God, but also love your neighbor as yourself. Well, who's the only person in the story who's loved the neighbor as himself? The one who s- rescues and heals and pays for this poor man who's been, you know, waylaid by robbers. He's the good neighbor who fulfills the law. He's the one who's justified himself. Now, yes, "Go do likewise," there's some echoes there of, of the go and sin no more language that we see in other places, too. So I, I think this parable is more, is more about- A, and this is where it shares some affinity with the rich young ruler, [00:29:00] right? The rich young ruler is told to go and to, to sell everything he has and donate it to the poor and to come and follow Christ. And he says, you know, he, he can't do that. He walks away sad. In this instance, it's the same kind of situation. It's an, a question about how do I fulfill the law? What do I need to do to be saved, to inherit eternal life, to obtain eternal life, whatever the phrasing is. And the answer is, "Obey the law perfectly." And the guy goes, "Well, hey, I did that." And he said, "Well, let me show you how much you didn't do that." And the reality is the only one who did that is Christ, the good teacher, right? I mean, there, there's so many parallels between these two accounts. It, it's almost the same, it's almost the same story. This one just in sort of parable answer form versus a more direct form, which we see with the rich young ruler. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, what I find really fascinating about these is that whereas, like you said, the, some of the other parables, they come under the volitional teaching of Christ. That is, He is presenting forward the topic at hand. So usually it's in the context of conversation, but He essentially makes [00:30:00] the segue. He presents and opens up this new kind of vista to explore. In this case, or in both those cases you talked about, the confrontation really comes from the outside. Of course, God, through Christ, predestined all of these things to pass, so I'm not saying that Christ was caught off guard, of course, by this line of questioning. And presumably He understands that when the lawyer asks this question, He knows that it's from a position of self-justification. So I don't disagree that that might be there, some of that at play, and that really the ultimate end of this would bring, to bring one's self to the realization that you can't do this. At the same time, though, I think almost, especially in this one, I think, uh, it's not that Jesus withholds that, but I read that do, go and do likewise is this is what you said you wanted. You asked me for an answer, and I gave you the answer. You asked for the law- Yeah ... I will give you the law. So I actually don't know how this ended. It doesn't strike me that it ended well, and I think, I don't know if there was some kind of massive realization there, but it's almost as if there is some [00:31:00] obscuring of this. This is like typical parable, parable language where I think if you're there and you're listening, and you're trying to just track with the question and track how that compounds and corresponds with the law, that you would leave more destitute, more confused, and perhaps more angry than before, and certainly not in a position of understanding, "Well, th- this one before me is the Christ." But that's exactly what parables do. So again, I, I think to me- Right ... I see this more as certainly, again, there are these wonderful themes These kind of overtures of the gospel within, but they are dark and very obscured because the man asks a question about the law, and Jesus comes with a message about the law. And like you said, that law is- Yeah ... like, there's almost no grace in his tone as I read it because, not that he is not graceful or full of grace and gracious, but this guy asks for justification under the law. And so it ends with saying, it ends with this really phenomenal phrase, of course, of the lawyer realizing he's got himself [00:32:00] caught in having to respond truthfully in answering the question of who is the neighbor, but of course doesn't identify the neighbor except to say, "Oh, the one who has compassion," as if like he himself couldn't bring himself- Right to say these words. And then for Jesus to say, "Yeah, go do it," is, is kind of like the ultimate nail in the coffin.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and to tell a first century Jew to go and do, to be- Yes ... like a Samaritan is- Yes ... you know, e- even, even though that's not, like, highlighted in the text, you're right. Like, the, the lawyer probably couldn't bring himself to say the Samaritan was, right? And I, I think, um, you know, whether you take, uh, and maybe I'm novel on this. I guess I haven't really read, read a lot of people that take a, a more optimistic approach of this. But whether you take a more optimistic outcome approach or a more pessimistic or neutral, whatever, the, the actual outcome is the same, right? The, the lawyer is asking about self-justification under the law, like you said. Right. And Christ gives him [00:33:00] that. He tells him exactly what that means and what that looks like. And I think the, the impossibility of being the good neighbor as is described in the parable is exactly the sort of beat down of the law that, that, you know, we've talked about in the past is it's not as though, um, the, the, the actions of the Samaritan are not, uh, outwardly impossible, right? We- Right ... it's not unreasonable to think that someone could rescue someone from the side of the road and bring them to ... And like, the scenario itself is not that crazy. But the, the overall complex of the scenario, right? The fact that this man, um, was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, right? The, the ... All of this points to sort of like an impossible circumstance, an impossible situation. And, and the idea that even [00:34:00] within that impossible situation you're still expected to take care of the person who is your enemy, right? The Samaritan seeing a Jewish man beaten by the side of the road- That's right ... and although the parable doesn't specifically call out that he's Jewish, if he's going from Jerusalem to Jericho, there's an implication that he may actually also have been a priest. Um, we, we don't need to get into all the details on that, but there's, there's some good, uh, some good research out there that would point to the fact that the road from Jerusalem to Jericho is, uh, was actually a very common pathway traveled by either priests or Levites. And further evidence is that a priest and a Levite are also on this same road. And so the idea that the Samaritan would, um, would- Sacrifice of himself to take care of someone who very likely considers him to be an enemy, and sacrifices in a pretty significant way. Um, I, I'll, I'll pause and now as you're [00:35:00]talking I'll do all the, the background scrambling to make it look like I know exactly how much- a denari is supposed to, to be, and I know we've talked about it before, it's just not there.  Lavish Impossible Mercy Tony Arsenal: But, but it's not a- Yeah ... it's not a trivial amount of money. That's right. We're not talking about checking this guy into, like, a Motel 6 and, and dropping a couple hundred dollars. We're, we're talking about a substantial amount of money and, and we're talking about a commitment to pay whatever is required. Okay. An unknown amount of money for this man who has been left for dead. We're not talking about a minor injury. The, the robbers beat him up, they took his clothes, and they expected him to die in the desert. He needed to be carried on a donkey. He needed to have immediate first aid attention. We're talking about a, a relatively long-term recovery. So the scenario would be more like, we think of it like, "Oh yeah, I dropped him off at the local hotel for him to sleep it off." The scenario would be more like, "I found a guy on the side of the road. I didn't know who he was. He's, he's of a group of people that would consider me to be their enemy, and he's been shot 100 times, and I'm gonna patch up his [00:36:00] wounds. I'm gonna take him to the hospital. I'm gonna not only pay and say, 'Here, I, I've already used some supplies. Let me pay for that,' but I'm gonna pay for all of his medical bills until he's healed." Like, that's the scenario we're talking about. So it's not, it's not just, like, a good deed that has been done that is maybe, like, a really, really good deed, like it's a really nice thing to do. It's a, it's an outlandishly almost impossible to conceive of doing good deed. N- I don't know anyone, um, who would... And, and I know a lot of really great people. This is not a slam. I don't know anyone who would find a stranger on the road and who is, who's gravely injured and commit to pay for all of their medical care until they're healed. I just don't know anybody who would do that. Right. Um, some might say there's actually some wisdom in that, and, uh, we've talked about how sometimes the parables present a situation where maybe, like, this isn't actually the best practical knowledge. It's there to prove a point. Right. But I don't know anybody who, I don't know anybody who would do that, who, who would even think about doing that. Um, so the, the scenario here is one [00:37:00] of impossible lavish goodness being extended to those who you have no reason to be good to, and probably have reason to not be good to. That's what we're talking about. And so the, when the, the lawyer is told to go and do likewise, he's being told to do something that is impossible to fulfill, or even to conceive of fulfilling. And so there is this element of, like, "You think you can obey the law? Well, let me tell you how much you can't  Jesse Schwamb: obey  Tony Arsenal: the law."  Jesse Schwamb: Right. By the way, this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Like a good Samaritan, State Farm is there. Every time we've been saying good neighbor, I've been just been trying to avoid thinking about- Yeah Jake from State Farm. That's what I've been doing most of this time.  Tony Arsenal: Jake from State Farm?  Jesse Schwamb: Um, I totally agree, of course.  Priest Levite And The Law Jesse Schwamb: Like, what strikes me here is that it's, like you said, there is all this emphasis on what it means to show neighborly love, but the setup is also in those who basically should be showing it but aren't, and that's where we get, can get into this lovely... It's, [00:38:00] it's okay to kinda think through some of these characters. You know, for this priest and the Levite here, and what we know about them is that they, at first it sounds like there, there's almost this sense in the language like the priest falls ab- upon this, this, you know, bloodied man by chance, and that kinda heightens the drama, I think. The priest's confrontation is a little bit unplanned, but it's immediate and unavoidable, and he chooses to cross on the other side of the road, which is of course a deliberate act of avoidance. It's not mere obliviousness. And then the Levi almost goes further, or he came to the place, he saw him closer inspection, you know, greater culpability, and yet he still passes by. I really do wish I could hear this, like, in real time, like be among, because I have to- Yeah ... wonder that there'd be this kind of sense of building in the story. And the people might be kind of getting the sense that the characters that they know and love or should love as the heroes are not gonna be performing that way. And so I think even they're curious. They might be hoping against hope that it's gonna turn out well, but knowing the question and maybe something about Jesus, [00:39:00] they might anticipate that he's gonna go in a different direction. And so again, I think we have to stick with the text here. Like, Jesus doesn't explicitly state the motives of these gentlemen, but it's truthful. What's true- Right ... is that, like, these boys should have known better. You know, a lot of people have speculated that it was for ritual purity concerns or the, another ambush or social distance or just callousness. And I think that ambiguity might be deliberate because, again, what cuts against the lawyer here is whatever the specific excuse, the point is that these, like this kind of professional religiosity and even, like, meticulous law observance are of course not identical with, and probably can even distract or obstruct the love of neighbor that the law itself commands, which is wild, right? Because we talked about how, again, this just shows the law doesn't empower you to do the thing, and in fact, here- Right ... you could essentially abuse the law so that you suck the spirit right out of it and therefore do not do the very thing that it was intended to accomplish. So even this by itself, you just stop the parable here, it's kind of condemning because it's really this [00:40:00] potent warning against some kind of merely external ceremonial, professionalized religiosity that fails to produce, I guess, what Matthew calls, like, the weightier matters of law, like justice and mercy and faithfulness. And, you know, we should understand this because I think those that are from tradition have a certain affinity for the third use of the law as a guide for the grateful Christian living, and that's, you know, kind of what we're talking about here. But it insists that true law keeping is never merely ritual or notional, but it must issue in love, like costly love. Love outside of being inconvenienced is not genuine. I, I guess we'll get there. But, you know, I don't wanna harp on the characters as some are prone to do, but that is, I think, why the characters are here. It's both to set up and show, like, you're about to see that you really do not wanna identify by your own persuasion, by your own presuppositions with the one who's gonna be the hero, that is the, the one that shows neighborly love. At the same time, I'm gonna show you by way of condemnation that those who should exercise the greater love, [00:41:00] that do know better, that should know better, that should emblem- be emblematic of the spirit of the law, have done the exact same thing. Which I can only, uh, hope but believe is what this lawyer heard as well was that he was hearing that he was being stuck into this place before he was even given the question, well, who was the neighbor here? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think, um- There is a real sense in some of the parables that are sort of spoken against people. Um, this one doesn't specifically use that language, but it, it is a targeted, kind of a targeted response. There is a sense that throughout the course of the parable being told, they start to recognize midway through that they're like- Right you are the man. Like, this is one- Right, right ... of those Nathan and David kind of parables where, like, at some point the realization must have dawned on this guy that, like, "I've gotta be somebody in this parable." And I think that's where, where the, the challenging part is, is it's not clear, um, [00:42:00] it's not really clear even at the end of the parable who Christ is intending this guy to be, right? Right. Is he the lawyer or is he the, uh, is he the, the dead man on the side of the road, right? Is he... Or the dying man. Is, is he the l- the priest and Levite who pass by? Is he supposed to be the Samaritan, which would just be wildly offensive. Um, he's not necessarily, like, supposed to be anyone except for the fact that now at th- the punchline of the, the encounter here, Christ says, "Go and be like the Samaritan." And it's kind of like y- you know, if you were really following God's law, you would be the Samaritan in this one- Yeah, that's right ... but you're not. That's right. You're not and you can't be. Um, and so go, go ahead and do likewise.  Christ As True Neighbor Tony Arsenal: Um, I, I do think, too, there is some elements here where, um, I- Again, I, I think I take a little bit more of a typological, Christological-centered approach on this, but I, I don't think they're incompatible. But I do think there's an element here where Christ is also [00:43:00] unveiling, uh, sort of what he would do, like what, what his own plan of salvation is as the good, as the capital G, capital N good neighbor. Um, he is the one who does pour oil and wine on our wounds, right? A- and I don't wanna ... I don't think we need to fly off the allegorical deep end of reading oil and wine to be a reference to the Holy Spirit and t- Right but sometimes those things are evocative, indirect things that should, we should call our mind to those things. Like, I think, um, you know, when Melchizedek comes to bless Abraham and he, he presents him with bread and wine, right? I, I think, like, it's okay for us to go, "Wow, the Holy Spirit really made a point there that's subtle." And I think those little things within this parable drive me to look at this a little bit more along the lines of not only is there this sort of, like, law beat down, you [00:44:00] know, John Bunyan or not, um, Bunyan style, like the, "Moses just beat the crap out of me," kind of a- Right ... kind of a thing from Pilgrim's Progress. There's that, and I think it's really there. But it's also, uh, it's also sort of like this, uh, you know, "Blessed is the one who has ears to hear" side of it of, like, for those who are regenerated and can see the parable, can see the figures in the parable, it is now this beautiful picture of what it is that Christ does for those who cannot do it for themselves, right? And it's almost like the parable becomes a litmus test. If you look at the parable, and as you're reading through it, you sit there and you go, "Yeah, man, I'm like that guy who got beat up and left for dead. That, that really describes me," um, you're gonna get to the end of this and you're gonna be sort of, like, sitting in awe of, like, "Man, I have such a great savior who threw me on his donkey and, and promised to take care of all of my, all of my wounds, and promised to pay whatever it, whatever it cost." Um, y- you know, and all of these elements of, [00:45:00] like, oil and wine and, and all of these things be- kind of become alive to you in a way that someone who sees themselves as the, the good Samaritan, who thinks they're the one who's gonna come and rescue people, or I think increasingly in our day, and it's, it's weird to even say this, I think there are people who would look at this and resonate with the priest and lawyer and actually say, like, "Yeah, they shoulda, they shoulda crossed to the other side of the room." Mm-hmm. I've heard defenses of that in trying to argue that- The priest and the Levite, if they had, if this person was dead, they had touched the dead body, then, you know, they would've been ceremonially unclean. Uh, all of that is, I think, worth speculating about. But the reality is, um, who you see yourself in the parable actually says a lot, I think, about how you see Christ in light of either our ability to fulfill the law or our inability to fulfill the law, and therefore have our need for Christ. If you think you're the good Samaritan, if you think you're the one that's gonna come and [00:46:00] rescue people, that you're gonna be, you're gonna be the good neighbor, you're much more likely to see, uh, to, to be needing this as a sort of a law beat-down. Where those of us who, maybe this is the way you wanna parse it out, right? There's those of us who are, uh, regenerated and in Christ, and this is third-use law, right? This is, this is us- Right ... seeing what it means to be holy, and going and doing likewise, trying in our power, in our, our best to go and do likewise, empowered by the Holy Spirit, recognizing that we can't, and trusting the Lord to accept our feeble attempts- Right and be pleased by them. Right. Um, or maybe if you're not regenerated, this is f- this is first use, right? Right. And, and, and this is actually there to terrify you and to show you your condemnation and to serve as your condemnation. And, and there's even, and I didn't really intend to go all the way with this, but there's, there is also an element in here, and this is where, like, the mercy ministry interpretation comes in, where this is civil, this is civil law, where this is the, the, the, um, you know, the civil use of the law [00:47:00] to restrain evil, to show society what it is to be good, to, to restrain sin. Right. Yes, we want to be, uh, we, I would rather live in a society where people stop and help someone who's stranded or injured on the side of the road than, than a society where people pass by. Um, so I, I think all of those elements are in play here, and we do have to be careful not to take the full-on, like, never go full allegory approach to this, 'cause y- you can really... That's just a good general wisdom for all of, all of the Bible, but especially the parables and other figurative stuff. You can really just go totally far afield of what actually the point of the parable is- Right ... if you're not grounding it in the purpose that Christ is teaching it for, and, and the stated outcome of the parable, right? No one in the Bible makes c- I don't know that anyone in the Bible makes specific commentary on this within scripture, but the, the idea that, like, there's all these hidden meanings, well, if those are the hidden meanings, then why doesn't Christ talk about it? Why doesn't he come back- Right ... and [00:48:00] interpret those symbols later on like he does, like the Parable of the Sower or the Parable of the Seeds or Soils. Um, that one is much more directly allegorical in that the different seeds, the different soils represent specific people with specific s- scenarios. Christ comes and, and does that allegorical interpretation later on in the passage. There's nothing like that here. So I think we have to be really careful not to slip down that road. Jesse Schwamb: I think that it could be all those things. I, I totally agree with you on that. I think it could be all the use cases of the law. I think what makes this so wonderfully complex and a little bit tricky is that when I read this, I actually don't necessarily find myself gravitating toward putting myself in one place or the other. It almost depends on where I am or what's going on in my life. So for example, I think any time that any one of us, and we've all done this as Christians, have quenched the spirit, especially with respect to helping, serving, or loving others as my, our neighbor, then we're firmly in this parable in the place [00:49:00] of the priest and the Levite. Sometimes I think we are the one on the side of the road. We look to the church, to our brothers and sisters to help us, and what do they help us with? Like you were saying, Tony, they help us with that blood and oil. They help us with this, the power of the Holy Spirit, which is given to each one to help and to serve, to identify, to comfort with the comfort we ourselves have been received. And then I do think, and this might be unpopular, that, that sometimes by the grace of God, He empowers us to be the Samaritan, but only through His empowerment. Not, of course, because we're trying to just self-justify or because we're overtly generous in our own merit, but in fact, this is the way we ought to live, and that we ought to commend that kind of behavior to, again, acknowledge it as God-given and to promulgate it, especially among the body of believers. So I do think all three forms of the law are present there, but I do think I tend to, for whatever reason, right or wrong, I tend to tilt a little bit toward that third use here, just to see this as it's not wrong to, of course, to, I think, uh, lay over all of this, all these delightful variables and [00:50:00] details. Again, this idea of blood and oil, n- normative things, normal things, standard things that are being used to address- Yeah ... wounds. They're, they're... Of course, that would've been the practical way which you would've provided some kind of medicinal care to somebody in both that extreme circumstance, but also generally, because nobody's, like, keeping gauze or popping Advil to help this, this poor guy. And so it is- Right ... like this beautiful complexion of, I think, everything that we just talked about, that there is the law present, and depending on where you are, both in terms of your ingrafting into eternity, into the Kingdom of God, and then where you are in life, you- we should read ourselves probably, or l- let me say it this way, not so it's like eisegesis, but, like, that we should see ourselves often at different pli- times maybe playing or being tempted to play the parts of these different characters. And in that we find, I think, ultimately, of course, as you're saying, that Christ is over all, and that He is the one that, of course, perfectly emphasizes all of what it means to be the Savior, the [00:51:00] true loving neighbor who cares and binds and heals completely full stop. And yet there is something instructive here, I think, as well about going and bringing that compassion. I was just thinking, like, as we were talking, that there's such a difference, isn't there, like, in our world between these days, like, pity and compassion? Like, pity often is like, "Yeah, I feel sorry for you," but it strikes me as kind of like the James, is it James 1 or James 2, where it's kind of like, "Oh, you're... I, I'm so sorry that, like, you're, you're hungry and cold. You know what? Go, be warm, and be well-fed." You know, that's like pity. Like, "Yeah, I just- Yeah ... I feel a little bad. I identified with your emotions." Sending  Tony Arsenal: good vibes.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I've got- Yeah. Yeah. That's right, right? Sending good thoughts and good vibes your way. I wanna say, like, keep those to yourself 'cause they're probably not all that- Yeah ... good. Um- I  Tony Arsenal: don't want your vibes.  Jesse Schwamb: I don't want your vibes. Get your vibes out of here. What I need is that power of God himself, uh, to bring compassion, and compassion is always wrapped in action. It identifies- Right ... and then goes. It, it's, it [00:52:00] is not self-promoting, it's self-sacrificing. And so that rule of law, which is like the good rule of law, the good teaching, the kind that brings life because it's the Decalogue wrapped in skin perfectly performed by the power of the Holy Spirit through the one who is perfect again in his passive obedience and active obedience. Yes, yes, we need, we need all of that. It's modeled here, I think, to a certain extent, but I think the go and do likewise is actually for all of us, but it's not the kind like we would say, "Well, like, good luck." It's more the- Yeah ... you know the one from whose side the blood flowed. You know the one who is pressed in the garden as if olives under the press leaking oil. You know who that one was, and that one is His spirit resides in you. So now go and do these acts- Yeah ... of mercy. Again, not s- for some kind of meritorious reward, but because you were made for good works, which were set apart for you to do, and part of those good works are [00:53:00] just always being a good neighbor. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and, and maybe to, to close out, I, I, I think maybe we actually did it. I don't know that we're gonna have to do another episode on this. I guess we'll see after we do- Who would've guessed? ... our postmortem here.  Mary Martha And Final Charge Tony Arsenal: But I, I think part, part of, um, part of what we need to at least acknowledge is that what, what follows this parable, right? This, this goes from a parable of a lawyer seeking to justify himself to now the account of Mary and Martha, and the fact that, uh, that, um, M- Martha, you know, is busy with much work, and Mary is sitting and listening to, to Jesus and is said to have chosen the better part. And I think, like- Mm ... this is something that I think because of the way, like, Bibles are formatted, the way that certain things are sort of, like, extracted out as discrete teaching units, this parable is pulled out and separated from this next part. And I, I think we can [00:54:00] really run into problems when we do that because- You know, even if we, even if we were to sort of treat the scripture as, like, a purely human book, right? Luke chose to put this account of Mary and Martha after this, right? And, and- Right ... probably not just because, like, it happened chronologically. There's no real, um, there's no real necessity that this account of Mary and Martha in this particular story had to happen immediately afterwards. Like, there's no organic link in, in the chronology of the story to drive that, right? And the two aren't related in terms of, like, historical cause and effect or, uh, proximity. There's none of those things. So the only answer as to why this was selected to follow the parable of the Good Samaritan is that there's some thematic connection that drove Luke as an author to put this, put this right following that. And so I think even that should drive us to thinking about, all [00:55:00] right, we've got this statement of go and do likewise, show mercy. Now there's almost this foil that the, the, the person in, in the account in the, the narrative here, and a, a true narrative, right? We're not in parable land anymore, but the person in the narrative that seems to be showing mercy, seems to be taking care of people the most, is actually the one who's chastised a little bit for, for being- Right overly zealous about m- mercy ministry, hospitality ministry- Right ... is what you might call it. She's the one who's like, "Tell my sister to help me with this." And she said, like, "You know, you're always gonna have time to do this, but, like, I'

Some advisers are telling agency owners they don't need to know AI all that well themselves. They suggest owners go deep on AI for a month or three, then pass the day-to-day to the team and move on with life. In this episode, Chip and Gini explain why that’s backwards, and how owners who step back from AI are making a mistake. Chip’s argument is that AI doesn’t fit the usual delegation model because it’s moving too fast and touching too much of the business to hand off after just a few months of study. Gini agrees, noting that advice which made sense six months ago is often stale today. Both connect this to credibility with the team: Chip compares the situation to a non-technical manager overseeing developers, who then gets disrespected because they don’t speak the language. Gini says her own coaching works because she’s in the tools constantly enough to give specific workable advice. They also describe pushing AI into something closer to a personal operating system than a work tool, from Chip wanting an assistant that catches him contradicting his own past positions, to Gini’s agent that calls her out when she takes on work she said she’d delegate, telling her flatly it’s not the best use of her time. The episode closes with the advice that staying curious personally is what keeps owners sharp enough to lead a team through a tool that keeps rewriting its own rules. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You need to be in the trenches on AI, at least for the foreseeable future.” Gini Dietrich: “I honestly and truly do not know how I did my job five years ago.” Chip Griffin: “You just don’t come across as confident if you haven’t tried it yourself.” Gini Dietrich: “If you simply get a general knowledge and then leave off in delegation, you’re not getting anywhere near the value that you ought to be.” Related AI should be your agency's friend, not foe Stop chasing AI tools: Start with what actually hurts Using AI the right way for agency biz dev View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I have no creative introduction whatsoever. Gini Dietrich: That’s fine- So maybe- … because I’m gonna phew. Chip Griffin: So maybe, maybe we should just take a, a deep dive for w- you know- … couple of minutes here and try to figure out what it is that we’re gonna talk about today. Gini Dietrich: We’re gonna talk about the bro culture who told agency owners to use AI for three months and then not again. Chip Griffin: Yes. apparently, agency owners need to, to really get up to speed on AI, but then just to hand it all off to the team and move on with their lives. Gini Dietrich: This is the most ridiculous, ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard, and I understand that I don’t have context ’cause I didn’t watch the bro video, but that’s ludicrous. Chip Griffin: And in fairness, I watched it a while back, so my context is a little bit off too. But it- look, this is, this is not, this is not one-off advice. I mean, frequently I hear people advise, you know, agency owners to, to have some general knowledge of something but then to let go. And, I think in some cases that may be worthwhile. But I think AI is moving so fast- … and has such an impact on our businesses that, that we need to … as leaders, we need to remain curious, we need to be hands-on. We cannot simply rely on our teams to do this because it is transformational to our businesses and to our industry, and that’s not something that you leave in the hands of somebody else. Gini Dietrich: Yes, and I know I’ve said this before, but I honestly and truly do not know how I did my job five years ago. Chip Griffin: Yep. Gini Dietrich: Because, it’s such a huge thinking partner for me to help me figure out what I’m missing, what holes I need to fill, what’s overly complicated, what’s too jargony. Like, I don’t know how I did my job without it. So the idea that you would do a deep dive for three months and then be like, “Okay, everybody else take over,” like that doesn’t, that doesn’t make any sense at all. Chip Griffin: No, it does not. Now, in fairness, I think, I think what they were saying was sort of hand over the day-to-day of it, and you can certainly still use it to help you with your own writing and the basic stuff. But I, think you still need to be beyond that. I think you need to be pushing- Yes … the envelope yourself- Yes … experimenting, innovating- Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes … Chip Griffin: inspiring your team. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And, if you’re not doing that, you’re not getting the most out of it that you can. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Like, yes, because this is one of those things that if you’re not using it, you don’t know what has changed, and it’s changing so fast, right? I mean, a couple of weeks ago, Claude came out and said that they’re watermarking everything, and you can’t just retype it into a new document because the watermark is in the tokens and how it thinks, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And everybody freaked out. Like, everybody’s using AI. So, okay, so it’s watermarked. Like, we all know we’re using it. Everybody’s using it. I use it, you use it. Everybody uses it. Like, okay, so it’s being watermarked, but like, if you’re not using it and understanding it and evolving with it, then you might freak out about that. But it’s not that big of a deal. Chip Griffin: It is absolutely not that big of a deal. It’s stupid, in fact, but, you know, if it, if it amuses somebody to, do that, fine. I’m sure that somebody will figure out how to, to reveal those watermarks and post gotchas, kinda like in the old days when people were like, “Gotcha, that CEO didn’t write their own blog post.” No, duh. Gini Dietrich: Really? Yeah. Chip Griffin: And, and, and, their shareholders don’t want them to do that either. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Right. Yes. Chip Griffin: Not, at their hourly rates. And- No … and that, and that was 20 years ago before their hourly rates got to where many CEOs- Right … have their hourly rates today. But in any case, so you Chip Griffin: need to be learning and experimenting and understanding how it’s evolving, because, I mean, even some of the advice that, you know, someone might have given you or I might have given six months ago is not the same advice I would give today. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And, in fact, you know, some of the things about, you know, the importance of providing instructions and guardrails and all that kind of stuff, that may be shifting. You know, we’re now seeing Anthropic saying, “Well, that’s, that’s not really the best way to get things out of the, the more recent versions of Opus and Fable and that kind of stuff. You actually wanna give it more freedom than you did before, otherwise you may not like the results.” And- Yeah … and those things are changing. You know, a, a couple years ago, everybody was like, “You need to tell it what kind of mindset to have. Act as a social media strategist.” Nobody will tell you that today, because that’s not the best way to get stuff out of it. But if you’re not continuing to experiment and roll up your sleeves and be in there day to day and figure out not only how it can help your business, but how it can help you personally, and that’s beyond just the thought part of it. That’s figuring out how do I make it my own personal operating system, my second brain, which I am extremely passionate about, and I think that, most agency owners should really be thinking about this whole, you know, whether, you wanna call it that operating system or second brain concept, having something that really knows you and as much about you as possible so that it’s really there, not even just as a thinking partner or a sparring partner. I mean, it’s, there as a mini you- Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: That can help you to think things through and not forget stuff, which- Yep … as I get older, is more and more important. Gini Dietrich: Well, and one of the things that I’ve done is I do– I’ve done exactly like that. I’ve done exactly that, and I think I’ve talked about this before, that I have a co-CEO agent that I’ve built, and it will s- it kinda, it kinda makes me mad sometimes. But one of the goals that we have inside my organization is to have everything less dependent on me, because right now the, the business is very founder-led. It’s, you know, I’m the thought leader, I’m the brand, all of those things, and it’s a big, big goal over the next three to five years to extract me from some of that and start to build other leaders inside the organization that, you know, can help us scale and do all of those things. So my AI knows that, and I will do something, and it will say Is this the best use of your time? I thought you were trying to extract yourself, and I’m like, “Ugh. Fine!” Chip Griffin: See, yours is more polite than mine because mine will just straight up tell me that it’s not a good use of my time. Yeah, yeah, sometimes it will do that, yeah. and, that I shouldn’t do it. Yeah. Or, my other favorite is it will say, “Well, this does not, you know, match what you said in, you know- 2022.” Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, “Why are you saying this now?” Or something like that. Gini Dietrich: What has changed, or yeah. Yeah, yeah … Chip Griffin: yeah, what has changed, or just it’s, it’s not consistent. Yeah … and, so having it call me out, the, I mean, it … Sometimes it’s caught me on things where I’m just not thinking it through, right? In, the moment I give a quick answer and say, “Yeah, let’s go in this direction,” it’s like, “Wait a minute, hold on.” Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: That c- that conflicts- Yep … with advice you’ve given in the past. Yep. You know, square this up. Gini Dietrich: Yep. And I will say that, you know, you made the point about using it in your personal life, too. I have an agent that is helping me parent a teenage girl, and sometimes I get very frustrated and I’m like, “Meh,” and I type something out, and it literally said to me the other day, “So let me get this straight, Gini. You are raising a strong, independent young woman who can think for herself and do things the way that she thinks are best, and you’re mad that she’s doing this?” And I’m like- Well, when you put it that way, like… Chip Griffin: to, to which I would be tempted to respond, “You know I can delete you at any time, right?” Gini Dietrich: But it holds up a mirror sometimes and you’re like- Chip Griffin: It, does … Gini Dietrich: “Oh, okay.” Yeah. “You’re right. All right, you’re right. You’re right.” Chip Griffin: But it, you know, part of it is just is, is playing the what if game too. And I think that’s something that’s really hard to delegate to your team, or maybe not comfortable for them because- Right … some of those what ifs may result in them not having the jobs that they currently have. Exactly. Not necessarily that they are out of a job, but- Right … but their job would necessarily change. And, you know, one of the things that, that I will often do is I will say to my AI engine of choice, “So, you know, here’s my challenge. How might I go about that differently?” Or, you know, “How could you help me with this?” Or, when it gives me an answer, well, why do I still… ‘Cause sometimes it’ll say, “You need to do this next.” And I’ll say, “Well, why?” Gini Dietrich: Why? You’re right. Why? Chip Griffin: What is it about it that you can’t do- Gini Dietrich: Yeah … Chip Griffin: so I can, you know, make a legitimate decision about really whether it is something I need to take on. And I’d say probably 50% of the time it’s like, no, actually you’re right. I could create a process that would allow me to, you know, maybe not get it all the way there, but close enough. And I think that, you know, having those kinds of conversations and engagement help you to figure out things that are important not just to you, but to the business itself. And if you simply get a general knowledge and then leave off in delegation, you’re not getting anywhere near the value that you ought to be. Gini Dietrich: 100%. I totally agree with that. And I think this, this idea that you should just deep dive for three months or one to three months or whatever it happens to be, and then leave it off to your… Like, that’s just, it’s ludicrous. It’s ludicrous. Like it’s, bah. Bah. Chip Griffin: Yep. And, and I mean, and the, the other thing that I think is helpful is, you know, there’s all sorts of things being said and written about AI, including this podcast, this episode, and previous episodes. And one of the things that I love to do is I love just taking a link to, you know, one of these podcast episodes or videos and, throwing it to Claude and saying, “Hey, anything I should take away from this?” And what it then does is it reads the transcript and takes a look at, all of the behaviors that I currently have with it and say, “Okay, well, you, you’re already doing 90% of this, but here are the two new ideas that you might consider.” Hmm. And it, And, so I find it really helpful, so I will… Sometimes I don’t even watch the video. I’ll just, you know, I’ll see the headline on a, a, video on YouTube, you know, “Get 10X the results of Claude Design by doing this.” And so I’ll just grab the link, and I’ll shoot it over to Claude and say, “Anything? Should I watch this? Is there anything to take away from it?” Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chip Griffin: And, it will come back, and it, because I, do all of the work that I do and because I have systems set up so that it records all of the activity that I do with it and all of the rules and context and all that, it’s able to say, you know, “You’re better than it in these places, you’re worse than it in these places, and this stuff is just, you know, rock stupid- Yeah and you shouldn’t do it no matter whether you can or can’t.” Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that’s exactly right, and, using it in those kinds of ways are the big things I think most people are missing. And you know, you- before we started recording, you and I were talking about how 99% of humans just in general are not using it in those kinds of ways. We’re not building skills, we’re not building agents, we’re not curious about what it can do. We’re not using it in ways that can help us. I mean, I use it, to your point, for everything. I use it for parenting, I use it for home design, I use it for all work-related things. I, I honestly and truly, I don’t know how I lived five years ago without it. I don’t. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, it, can help you find just little things that are just, you know, mind-numbingly annoying and I sometimes will kick myself for not using it as my first port of call. So- Gini Dietrich: Yep, yep … Chip Griffin: for example, a couple of weeks ago, I was having, a, a really technical networking issue in my house, as far as how my laptop was talking to my, my NAS. And it wasn’t doing it exactly correctly, and so it was l- leading to very, very slow transfer speed. So it wasn’t just invisible, it was just really slow- Mm-hmm … in a way that it, shouldn’t have been. And I’m pretty smart about home networking and LANs and all that kind of stuff, and so I, I couldn’t figure it out, and so I did some quick Googling and I couldn’t find it there. And I’m like, “You know what? Let me just give the, exact situation to Claude and see what happens.” Not 10 seconds later, it has come back with a really bizarre solution. I tested it, immediately worked, solved the problem. Gini Dietrich: And it worked. Isn’t that crazy? Chip Griffin: Right. That’s crazy. So I, mean, it, could, it… And, normally you would expect that, the same thing would pop up in Google results, and it didn’t. Gini Dietrich: It didn’t, right. Chip Griffin: Because it was, it was such an edge case that I had. But it was able to, parse through all of the detail and figure out what the real problem was and how to resolve it. And so- Gini Dietrich: And then it worked. That’s crazy … Chip Griffin: and, then it worked. And, otherwise, I would’ve just given up and just had to live with the fact that my laptop was talking incredibly slowly to the NAS. Which it, it wouldn’t have been the end of the world- Right. But, yeah … but there were certain tasks that it just made difficult, and I didn’t want to do that. I wanted it to work the way it, it should. And so it, helped. So, but if I wasn’t spending the time with, with the tool myself and I, went to a team member, could they possibly solve it? Sure. But, that, A, that’s wasteful- Gini Dietrich: Right … Chip Griffin: and, B, I’m not learning from it. And, I think the, the other thing that we need to keep in mind is that when we lack knowledge about something, it’s harder to manage our people on those tasks. And so, you know, if you are a PR agency owner, the fact that you’ve done PR before helps you to manage your team because you can figure out what actually makes sense. Does it really take this long to do that? And, and, not only do you understand what they’re doing and, how it impacts, but also they respect you more, right? If you are– I’ve seen PR people managed by non-PR people- And it tends not to go all that well because they’re not talking the same language. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And if we want our whole teams to be energetically using AI, and we’re not using it, we can’t speak that same language. Again, I, used to have occasions where I would see a non-technical person managing a dev team. Gini Dietrich: Oh, no.  That’s a terrible idea. Chip Griffin: And that’s the worst. Right? Yeah. Because th- because developers know they can pull one over on you if you don’t- Then, yeah … if you don’t know what they’re actually talking about, right? And, I always had a much better time managing devs ’cause I, I can code myself and those… So when they kind of give me a, a baloney answer, I’m like, “Really? Really?” And they’re like, “Oh, yeah. No, okay. All right. I guess we can’t do that.” So, you need to understand the AI in order to be able to prod your team, manage your team, encourage your team, inspire your team. So- this is, this is really not one of those things where you can say, “Look, I just, I need to be an executive level person on this, and that’s it.” You need to be in the trenches on AI, at least for the foreseeable future. At some point, it may begin to stabilize, and you can treat it more like a lot of the other activities. But as long as it is developing and evolving as quickly as it is now, you need to be in there, and you need to understand it every single day. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And one of the things I will tell you with my team that I have learned over the last few months is that- They don’t have the same level of, shall we say, excitement that I have around it. And because of that, I’m able to train them and coach them on how to use it. And so I will say, “Well, have you prompted it with this,” or, “Have you tried that?” And they’ll go, “Oh, no.” And then they’ll do that and go, “Oh, well that worked.” And so if I wasn’t using it, you know, constantly like I am, I wouldn’t know to be able to train or coach those things. So I think you’re exactly right. It’s kind of like I say to my market- our VP of marketing all the time, I’m like, “You have the hardest job in this building because this is my core expertise.” And I’m sorry, but like I’m gonna have ideas, and we’re gonna have debates over things that you’re doing because it’s my core expertise. And this is the same thing, like you should know enough to be able to say to your team, “Have you tried this?” or, “Have you thought about that?” or, “Maybe try prompting it with this,” or, “Have it play devil’s advocate,” or, “Have it poke holes in it for you.” So like you can’t do that, to your point, if you’re not using it every single day. Chip Griffin: Well, and I, think you’ve touched on the key thing here, which is that it’s not doing the work for them. It’s coaching. Yeah. It’s mentoring. Yep. It’s advising. Yep. It’s inspiring. And those are all the, the things that you need to do. I’m not sitting here saying that you need to build all the processes out and hand over preset skills- Right, right … or bodies of context or whatever to the team, but, you need to know enough that you can have that, those conversations and say, “Have you tried this? Have you seen this?” You know, you, you– I, experimented with this the other day. You know, I think this is the kinda thing that would really help you doing X, Y, or Z. And you just can’t do that as effectively- Yeah … if you’re just like, “You know, I heard someone say, I heard Chip and Gini talking about this, and I think maybe you ought to do this.” But I mean, you, Chip Griffin: just don’t come across as confident if you haven’t tried it yourself. Gini Dietrich: Yep, 100%. And look, I know I’ve said this before too, but it’s fun. Like, it’s fun. So even if you don’t wanna use it from a business perspective or you haven’t figured out the best use of it, like try it personally, test it out personally. I found this app called Cookshelf where you scan all of the cookbooks that you have, and then it indexes all of your recipes, which is great, and it helps you meal plan and it builds grocery lists and all that. However, you still have to come up with the meal plans ideas. So I have to say, “Okay, I wanna make tacos,” and then I put tacos into the app, and it gives me like 75 recipes from the cookbooks that I own. Overwhelming. Great, but overwhelming. So now I use my AI to say, “Okay, last week we had this, this, this and this. Here’s my app. Here’s all the cookbooks. Give me an idea. I wanna have one night pork, one night steak, one night chicken, one night vegetarian,” and then it does that work for me, and then I go into the app and find the recipe, right? So– And it tells me which cookbook it’s in and which page. So then I just go to my shelf, I pull it off and I cook. Makes things significantly easier. The app made it easier, AI made it even easier. So there are lots of things. I have my books in my library downstairs color-coded, which drives my father-in-law crazy because he thinks I should be using the Dewey Decimal System, but they’re color-coded. They’re like red, orange, yellow, right? So I took a picture of all of my books on all the shelves, there’s more than a thousand of them, and I put them into Claude and I said, “Create me an index of all of the books by author, by title, and then tell me what, which shelf they’re on and which– and how far in.” Now I have my own Dewey Decimal System. So there are lots of ways that you can use AI in interesting ways personally to get excited about it and then transfer that over to the business Yes, they’re color-coded. I know you haven’t gotten past that yet. Chip Griffin: I, I, I just, you’ve left me speechless. Gini Dietrich: It looks so nice. It’s so pretty. Chip Griffin: It, I, I, I, I feel like maybe you should be experimenting to see how AI can act as a therapist for some of the issues you clearly must have- Gini Dietrich: I do have, yes … Chip Griffin: if, if you, if you’re- Gini Dietrich: But it looks really nice. It looks very nice. Chip Griffin: It looks re- it d- that is fantastic. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll be honest, I’ve gotten rid of all of my cookbooks and most of my regular books because I- Gini Dietrich: Oh, wow … Chip Griffin: stopped cracking them open, and I decided that the fact that they looked good on my shelf didn’t really matter to me anymore. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, see, it matters to me, so. Chip Griffin: And, when it comes to cooking, I prefer the, the, the Top Chef challenge style. You just go and you grab a couple of ingredients, and you say- … “What can I make with this?” Gini Dietrich: That’s weekend cooking, which I agree with. Oh, no. Weeknight cooking, I can’t do that. Chip Griffin: Oh, that’s week, that, that week, that’s- Gini Dietrich: I just have to, like, have a plan. Chip Griffin: No, I do that lunchtime, whatever. I mean, just- Yeah, I don’t have- It, just, it’s the shortens the time, right? So if you’re doing it for lunch- Sure, yep … you know, you got maybe 10 or 15 minutes, so what can I, what can I do with- Yeah … what’s available here? What’s going bad in the… Usually start with what’s going bad in the fridge. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And, grab one or two of those and say- Hmm … “Okay, how can I put this to work?” And it, to me, that’s a lot more fun than using some recipe well, first of all, I’ve always hated recipes, but secondly- Yeah … it’s, not as mentally challenging, and I like my cooking to be mentally challenging. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I don’t have the time during the week. Weekends- Hmm … I totally agree with you, but during the week I don’t have the time. Chip Griffin: Hmm. Well, anyway, on that note, since I feel like we’re starting to veer off topic and off track a bit. Gini Dietrich: I will send photos of my color-coded shelves that we can include with this. Chip Griffin: I, I, that is, that is fantastic or disturbing or perhaps both. So- … on that note, we are gonna wrap up this episode. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with Andy Mort. I think you will appreciate his wisdom, poetic way with words and sense of humor. Andy is a UK-based songwriter and musician whose work as a creativity coach explores the intersection of high sensitivity, creativity, and the influence of culture.Aside from sharing some of our own experiences with high sensitivity and gentle rebellion, we discuss various ways those of us with high sensitivity (as described by Elaine Aaron) might better align with our nature. We also discuss:* 00:00 — High Sensitivity and Its Misconceptions* 01:54 — The Concept of Differential Susceptibility and Environmental Impact* 03:47 — Andy Mort's Journey Into Understanding Temperament and Sensitivity* 07:05 — The Discovery of the Highly Sensitive Person Trait and Its Biological Roots* 09:58 — The Idea of Being a Gentle Rebel and Leading With Authenticity* 14:51 — The Importance of Creating Supportive Environments for Sensitive People* 19:47 — Creativity as a Form of Self-Expression and Nervous System Regulation* 25:07 — The Role of Sensitivity in Leadership and Group Dynamics* 29:58 — The Challenges and Opportunities of Sharing Creative Work* 34:46 — The Societal Narratives Around Sensitivity and Self-Acceptance* 39:57 — The Importance of Community and Support for Sensitive Individuals* 45:06 — The Concept of Gentle Rebellion and Aligning With One's Nature* 49:45 — Closing Thoughts on Sensitivity, Creativity, and LeadershipFull transcript included belowWhere to find Andy Mort:*

The Suite Spot attended the 2026 Hotel Data Conference and had the opportunity to interview some of the best and brightest hospitality leaders in the industry to gain their insights and perspectives on prevailing data trends, AI & technology, how to optimize the guest experience and much more.  Be sure to watch the full episode if you missed any of the action from the 2026 Hotel Data Conference.  Special thanks to: Amanda Hite, Jan Freitag, Erica Lipscomb, Max Spangler, & Sam Trotter. Ryan Embree: Welcome to Suite Spot, where hoteliers check in and we check out what’s trending in hotel marketing. I’m your host, Ryan Embree. Hello, everyone. Ryan Embree here at the 2026 Hotel Data Conference here with STR President Amanda Hite. Amanda, great to see you again. Congratulations here. This is our first time at the Hotel Data Conference. Amanda Hite: Oh, wonderful. Thank you. Ryan Embree: Record attendance was just announced. Welcome to The Suite Spot. We’re excited to be here. It was a ton of excitement that we just saw. Tell us a little bit about this event, and we were talking off camera about, do you ever expect it to be what it is right now? Amanda Hite: Yes, we started it 18 years ago with a couple hundred people, maybe. The very first year we’ve always had it in Nashville. This is our home base for the STR part of our business. Most of our employees are here that are in the US. So we started it with a way to connect with customers and more importantly, like, we all have this curiosity about the data. You know, we’re constantly in analyzing, looking at trends in the industry, and we wanted to get people together to hear what are you seeing and let’s talk about it. And that’s really how this started. So it’s, I think it’s for me, my most proud part of this conference is the feeling that everyone has when they come in of being really open and curious and wanting to learn from each other. So you get some really good dynamic conversations happening in the networking breaks and in the hallway. Ryan Embree: Well, it’s such an important time right now too, right? ‘Cause people are already starting, if you can believe it. Well, actually, probably you can look in 2027. Amanda Hite: That’s why we do hotel data conference when we do it. Exactly. It’s budget season. Ryan Embree: Brilliant. Brilliant. Right? And, you know, you just got off stage, like I said. One of the fascinating pieces, like I said, we weren’t here last year, but this is our first time. You said when you first stepped on stage, there were, and you showed some of those original numbers. There was a little bit of a gap in the audience last year. Amanda Hite: Yes. Ryan Embree: But this year, a little bit different story. Amanda Hite: Yes. We had a much better forecast to reveal this year. Last year at this time was when we took the forecast down to reflect what was happening in the industry. And this year, we raised the forecast, not just for the rest of this year, but also for 2027. Ryan Embree: So great to see. And a really cool inflection point, I made a note here, revenue for the first time outpacing expenses, right? What does that mean for hoteliers? Amanda Hite: Yeah. So we finally see the pace of growth on the revenue side outpacing the expense growth. I mean, we’re in a high inflationary environment. Expense growth is something that will continue and hoteliers are having to deal with. But to see that we’re actually going to get some GOP gains, it’s, it’s super helpful. I mean, the point I made this morning though is our margins are not growing. Yeah. So we’ve got some room to grow efficiencies and productivity within the hotels to try to get margins to grow at the same rate of GOP growth. Ryan Embree: Yeah, yeah. It’s challenging right now. And one of the things we’re doing to combat, or CoStar’s doing combat that, bottom line data being added to the product. What’s that mean for the hotel industry? Ryan Embree: Yeah, so within STR Benchmark and the CoStar platform, we introduced at the end of the first quarter our profitability benchmarking. P&L is something that STR has done for 30 years. We did it on an annual basis. And we introduced our monthly benchmarking back in 2020, literally as the world shut down. So maybe not the best timing. But of course, now we’re prepared in an environment like we are today, a very complex operating environment for our hoteliers. It’s, yes, we need to grow revenues, but we must make sure that that is flowing through to the bottom line and that our operators and owners are actually making money. And that’s not been the case in many types of hotels and many markets around the country. So we’re trying to make sure that we bring that visibility of not just the top line growth that we want to see for the industry, but the flow through all the way to the bottom line. Ryan Embree: Yeah, I’d love to see that. And, you know, another thing that we’re gonna hear constantly about at, and at this conference is AI, right? So I guess the overarching question would be more of like, how are you incorporating AI into your products right now? Amanda Hite: This is when I’m so thankful that we are a part of the CoStar Group entity. If you follow our other brands, homes and apartments launched AI in their products earlier this year. So we’re continuing to build off of that. We will have AI search in the CoStar product in the same way that you see in apartments and homes. But for STR benchmarks specifically, what we’re thinking about is making sure that we’re integrating AI into the product, not just sitting on top of the product, but like we interact with the clients all the time on the analysis in the industry. So we want to bring that through AI into the product for our customers to use. So we love when they pick up the phone and call us and wanna talk about data. Right. But we also wanna make it easier for them to surface it within their portfolios in product. And so that’s the path that we’re going down to bring that intelligence in the product and analyzing and spotting the trends, knowing what to look at or sometimes not look at, right? Sometimes it’s a great point. It’s just as important to say like, “Hey, I only have a limited amount of time. Where do I not need to spend time right now?” And that can be tricky, especially when you’re looking at a larger portfolio of trying to discern where, what makes the most sense to drive profitability for my business, for me to spend time on right now. Ryan Embree: 100%. Those complexities and driving efficiency so important right now. And turning those data, that data into actual insights. That what one of the promises of AI. So reason we’re here at the Hotel Data Conference, thank you for taking the time. We’ll, we’ll let you get back. I know you’re hosting almost 900 hoteliers here. So we’ll let, let you get back to Amanda. Thanks for stopping by. Amanda Hite: Thank you, Ryan. Appreciate it. Ryan Embree: Hello, everyone. Ryan Embree here with The Suite Spot live on location Nashville at the 2026 Hotel Data Conference here with Jan Freitag, National Director at CoStar. Jan, thank you so much for taking some time and very busy. You’re hosting almost a thousand hoteliers here. Jan Freitag: Yes, 18th year. Sold out again. So heads up, next year we’ll sell out again. But thanks for being here and sort of taking the pulse on the industry. We appreciate it. Ryan Embree: 100%. Congratulations. Amanda Hite opened us this morning saying last year when she unveiled the forecast, there were audible gaps in the crowd. I feel like behind us, people have been skipping, jumping down, up and down this escalators. Share with us, we got a revised forecast. Jan Freitag: So we’re proposing that RevPar this year is up 4.4%. So that is the second upward revision we had to make, quote unquote. And the data’s just so strong. But then that means that next year, we’re gonna see growth, but it’s much slower global. So next year we’re thinking that RevPargrowth is gonna be like, you know, 2-2.1% or so. So the negative way to say this is, “Oh, our growth rate is cut in half.” The positive way to say this is like, “Oh, we have growth on growth, right? 4% this year, ne – 2% next year.” Ryan Embree: 100%. I mean, a lot of people are going into, you know, we’ve talked to hoteliers here on the Suite Spot, going into their budgets. These are very, very important numbers for them as they go into their budgets because they wanna forecast. When we met last, we were at NYU. There had been zero soccer games played in the US. Now, 104 games later, we got a crown champion. Obviously had a big impact. We’re gonna talk about that in a minute. But that strong performance, one of your big takeaways from this morning was strong performance is gonna equal some tougher comps in 2027, right? Jan Freitag: Yeah, absolutely. So we had arguably easy comps this year, right? The Q2, three, and four RevPAR performance last year was negative. So yeah, we would outperform it this year. That was not a question. But because, RevPAR in the second quarter was up 5.7%, that is a, a very stout result, obviously driven in June, partially by the World Cup remember we’re gonna talk about. You know what that means for next year is, oh wow, we’re not gonna see that performance again. And so my conversation this morning with hoteliers is all about, okay, so how do you massage your owner? How do you have this conversation with your owner, with your team to say, look, there’s still gonna be growth, but we really have to think about this. And I heard this this morning from an asset manager at next year as a year of 10 months and two months, you know? So really take June and July out of your annual number and say, okay, so what’s the growth for that? And then, yeah, June, July is just gonna be tough cost. Ryan Embree: Yeah. Probably something that a lot of markets who hosted Taylor Swift a couple years ago had to deal with. And then maybe what LA’s gonna have to deal with in 2029 after the Olympics in 28. Jan Freitag: Yeah, exactly. So we’re already talking now about the Olympics. We’re gonna talk about, obviously the World Cup in four years over in Europe and what is the performance there. So these sporting events are just the gifts that keep on giving. Ryan Embree: Yeah. Yeah. And, and travelers continue what we heard this morning. Consumers continue to prioritize travel, which is really, really great for obviously our industry. But not without its cautionary tales, you also had a watch your margins kind of take away from that. Maybe expand on that a little bit. Jan Freitag: Yeah. So we’ve had for the last year and for the last couple of years, really this interplay between room rate growth and the rate of inflation being higher than room rate growth. And we’re taking the rate of inflation sort of as a proxy for how much more things are expensive. And the costs for hotels are obviously going up. Higher labor costs, higher insurance costs, higher food costs, higher costs, inner energy, everything. So if your costs are going up in order for your margins to expand, you need to drive room rate or revenue faster than the cost increase. And that just is not happening. So my colleague Isaac Collazo spent 55 slides and an hour explaining how margins are decelerating, unfortunately. Now, the total dollar amount, we’re everything gets more expensive, but it also means we’re having more money available as profit. But the margins are coming down. And that’s really the, maybe to me, the main takeaway from HCC this year for the budget conversation for 2027 is watch your margin. Ryan Embree: Efficiency is always looking for that, especially in these tight margin areas. And then lastly, you know, your whole presentation this morning was themed around the World Cup. And, and I do wanna bring it up because, obviously there was the quote was 104 Super Bowls. Yeah. Right? And you kind of explored that case a little bit. Found out maybe that might not be the case. Jan Freitag: Yeah, exactly. So the FIFA president had said at the time, just to explain to American audiences, “Hey, we have 104 soccer games and they look like 104 Super Bowls.” That is of course not the case. And that was never meant to be the case. Super Bowl is the largest cultural sport event in America. It happens once a year, right? And to sort of translate that was, I thought always a little silly. So it turns out that the 104 Super Bowls did not come to pass, and it was more like 30 Super Bowls, maybe if that. So yeah, it was still a very healthy impact. If you look at the markets that Hosta gave Kansas City, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, very, very strong room rate growth. Interestingly, in some markets, actually, occupancy declines. We saw that specifically in Vancouver, but we saw it in Atlanta, we saw it in Boston. Why is that? Well, because corporate America, meeting travelers, meeting planners said, “You know what? I don’t need to compete with the Tartan Army in Boston for our meeting. You know, let me just stay away. Let me have that meeting in August, or let me move that meeting to Chicago,” for example. Sure. Chicago had a very, very strong June, July meeting calendar. So it’s, um, the, the room rate increase was absolutely expected and is exactly what came to pass. It just wasn’t Autumn for a Super Bowl. Ryan Embree: Yeah. I mean, that just proves we are, uh, a collective of markets. Things are gonna be obviously different in each one. Yeah. Uh, with different factors there. You know, a- and there’s also an interesting stat, fascinating stat, I wanna bring it up, about booking windows, um, that, that you brought up there. Yeah. If you wanna expand on that. Jan Freitag: So I got this totally wrong in the run up to the World Cup because I thought, look, if somebody books that FIFA ticket a year out, and the airplane ticket’s six months out, surely they would book their hotel three months out. Yeah. That did not happen. Right. And so we saw specifically the chart that I had this morning for, uh, arrival dates, June 11, 12, 13, 20 basis points of, uh, 20 points of occupancy was booked after June 8th. Wow. So that’s a booking windows of, like, three or four days. Wow. For an event that you knew what happened, I mean, six years ago. Yeah. You know? And you had a ticket from one year ago. So I just completely though that the, uh, the, the leisure traveler, the, the soccer traveler would also book their room way ahead. That did not come with us. Ryan Embree: Very interesting. I wonder if that’s a macro trend happening right now, those booking windows starting to shorten a little bit. Jan Freitag: Yeah, and maybe that’s a takeaway for our friends, you know, in LA who are hosting the Olympics. Hey, you know, be very mindful how you match that booking window. Ryan Embree: Lessons from history learned there. Yes. Um, final as we wrap up, I always li- like, like to get any, you know, you look at a lot of data. So any interesting, uh, like, data points that really stood out or surprising? Jan Freitag: I mean, the July data came out yesterday and the luxury class RevPar growth was 16%. Ryan Embree: Wow. Jan Freitag: Talk about A, amazing, but B, A, tough comps. Yeah. In July of next year. But it was an amazing, amazing performance. July was very, very strong. Um, and June as well. So we clearly saw, you know, July was helped a little bit by 4th of July, World Cup, uh, 4th of July calendar year, but also the World Cup, obviously the final and the bronze medal games. They all, they all helped. So July was strong, June was strong. So now I think things are getting a little bit more normal – Yeah. Early on end. Ryan Embree: Awesome. Well, we’ll continue to look ahead as you will, but thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule, Jan. Jan Freitag: Thanks for being here. Thank you. Ryan Embree: Hello everyone, Ryan Embree here with The Suite Spot. We are live on location of the 2026 Hotel Data Conference. I am here with Erica Lipscomb, EVP of Commercial Strategy at PM Hotel Group. Erica, thank you so much for joining me on The Suite Spot. Erica Lipscomb: Well, thank you for having me. Very excited to be here. Ryan Embree: Yeah, first time here on the Suite Spot. Yes. But not your first time here at Hotel Data Conference. Erica Lipscomb: Not my first time at Hotel Data Conference. This is conference number eight. Ryan Embree: Okay. Yes. All right. Hotel data conference. You obviously are no stranger, you’re a pro. What do you call a hotel data conference a success kind of reflecting back? What do you come here to accomplish and to learn? Erica Lipscomb: You know, I, again, this is our start of budget season. Sure. Right? Yeah. So I actually, uh, had dinner with Amanda last night and said, “You do realize what you’ve done here, right? We cannot even start our budget calendars until there’s an HTC.” Yeah. So really what I look forward to is not coming here just to hear that the amazing news of an increase year over year, or that we’re gonna increase in the year for the year. Sure. But what are those things that I can take away that can make it tactical for our teams? Mm-hmm. So learning from industry leaders that are here. We have amazingly smart people that are here at this conference. And we’re really drafting and shaping what the industry will look like. So what are those learnings? And then how do I make sure that we trickle that down within the organization and get them to our teams? Ryan Embree: Which can change so rapidly, right? As we know – Absolutely. It’s gone from, uh, a yearly change to almost, it feels like a weekly, especially with the AI and technology conversation. Yes. You were on a panel last year here at this same conference. I’m curious, what were some of the conversations then versus now? Erica Lipscomb: Yeah. And very different. I think it’s been extreme polar opposites. Okay. I feel like last year, there was a lot of conversation about AI. Mm-hmm. But more on the what is AI. Mm. And how are we gonna use AI? Yep. And it’s already started in conversations this morning. You know, we started networking last night, and most people are now really talking about what is AI doing for us to make sure that we’re efficient, making sure that our teams are effective, um, ensuring there’s profitability back to our owners. So it’s gone from a concept – Yeah. To now actually, how are we utilizing AI to be better in the industry, but keeping the forefront our customers? Ryan Embree: It feels like we’re in the sandbox now, right? And there’s a lot of companies out there trying different things. It’s the exploration process and, you know, maybe some success, but even, uh, lessons in the failure. Uh, I, I’ve been hearing a lot about that as well. So hotel data, obviously data is the name of the game. Yes. Still one of the most important tools I feel like right now on our quest of guest personalization. And so much it can do to kind of like what you said, prepare us for the rest of 2026 and even into 2027. Right. How is PM Hotel Group kind of leveraging data for growth and, uh, experiences? Erica Lipscomb: So actually you started with, with growth and experiences. Yeah. So really starting with growth. Yeah. We really are starting with AI in our business development side of our, our, of our home. Sure. And really how are we looking for the right clients that fit PM? Yeah. How, again, when you look at, uh, BD, it’s a relationship. Mm. So who are those owners? Who are the asset managers? What do their teams look like? Is that a right fit? And how can we help them grow? So that’s really the act – acquisition of the client and the customer. And then when we get to the property level – Right. Then as an enterprise, as a support center, what we’re looking to do is how do we use data, which is the, the heart – Yeah. Of revenue optimization. Sure. How are you using that data to make sure that we’re pulling through every step of the guest journey? So from the time again, acquisition of a customer. Right. So now not an owner, but that actual guest that’s gonna be staying at our properties, what does that customer journey look like? How do we find the right customer? We have a very diversified portfolio – Oh, yeah. For each one of our assets in the portfolio, ensuring that they convert. And then once they’re there in their stay, are we pulling through on all the experiences they expect? Whether it’s an independent hotel and the experiences that come along or for the brands and the brand standards. And then once our guests leave, how do we make sure that we are still speaking to them – uh-huh. And making sure that they return? Ryan Embree: I love how you walk through the entire guest experience. I think sometimes we get caught up just thinking about one or two elements of it. Right. But it really does start. I mean, the hot topic right now is that AI visibility, right? Absolutely. And being bound, uh, because our travelers are changing the way that they’re searching for hotels and doing their research. So, uh, it’s super, super important there. We’re in Nashville, Erica, uh, no stranger for PM Hotel Group. Yes. Uh, you guys just, uh – Very excited. Assumed management, 12 properties. Yes. Uh, what do you lo – like, um, from a Nashville market standpoint? I mean, this has just been such a hot market right now in hospitality. Uh, but also, you know, a big threshold of, uh, exciting 80 plus hotels for PM Hotel Group? Erica Lipscomb: Yes. We’re very excited to have the 12 hotels that, from Pinnacle that joined our portfolio. And that’s really our sweet spot, right? Finding those type of assets that fit our growth in our platform, and that we can make sure that we’re optimizing on their revenue, as well as excellent customer experience and guest operations experience. So what I really like about Nashville, and it’s not a new growth. Right. You know, Nashville never stopped growing, right? Where the, where the rest of the world really has struggled even, you know, six years ago. Through COVID. Nashville didn’t, right? Ryan Embree: It was red hot. Erica Lipscomb: But what most people think about when you hear Nashville, they’re really just thinking it’s an entertainment city. That’s not just all Nashville is. So when we peel it back and take a look at the segmentation and what’s driving Nashville, you do still have that customer that is true corporate business. And you still have conventions and groups. I was just in a group maximization winning group seminar just not too long ago. And in that breakout session, we really talk about group continues to still grow. Oh, yeah. And when you take a look at the first half of this year, that growth is really happening not only just in convention centers, but those hotels that have group meetings. Even when you take a look at those assets, what’s interesting is the growth is not just in the hotel that has most of the group, but if you are affiliated. You’re feeling that demand. Leveraging the demand and continuing to drive occupancy and ADR. Yeah, absolutely. So that’s why we’re still excited about Nashville. It’s one of those markets that continues to do well, not just in entertainment, but on the corporate business transient side, as well as group side. Ryan Embree: It’s a perfect destination. That’s why we got almost a thousand hoteliers here at the hotel data conference. Erica Lipscomb: That’s sold out again this year. Ryan Embree: Absolutely. Well, any. I mean, I can tell just by the conversation we’re having, very passionate about your work. Any projects you’re particularly fired up about right now? Erica Lipscomb: The project I’m probably most interested in is what I was hired for is to really continue to evolve commercial strategy. So commercial strategy is not just looking at every discipline in a silo. They’re all very important to revenue optimization. But how do we now continue to go from just having the commercial conversations, but also leverage the experience in each discipline? So our customers, when they look at our hotels, And they look at that curse customer journey that we just walked through – Right. They’re not looking at sales, revenue, marketing, distribution, operations. They’re looking at their holistic experience. Yeah. And so why not make sure that we internally stop looking at how well each d- division does and, and, and our, each siloed discipline, but let’s look through the lens of a gu – of a customer. Yeah. What’s that experience look like? And then how do we all play a part of it? Yeah. Exactly. So that’s what I’m excited about. And using, continuing to use AI. Yeah. How do we make sure that we’re leveraging commercial? Yeah. And then making sure that our use of AI is making our teams much more efficient – Mm. And effective in h – in how we run our businesses. Ryan Embree: That’s what I was gonna say. It’s, it’s such an inflection point, and I’m sure very exciting for, for your job with the technology in hand. Now you’ve got the power to, uh, break down those silos, right? Absolutely. Create efficiencies there. Yes. Uh, well, as we wrap up, you know, we always. One of the things here that we love to do at the Hotel Data Conference is try to predict the future, right? Forecasting, everybody. It’s a, it’s an impossible job, but we do it every single year. Right. Uh, you know, so from a commercial strategy standpoint, I know you, you, you just mentioned the projects you’re working on, but what’s your vision for PM Hotel Group as we kind of go into the latter part of the 2020s? Erica Lipscomb: So latter part of the 2020s, I think that the company’s vision is to really leverage the portfolio and the diversity of the portfolio. We saw that growth that we had just here in Nashville. I’m sure you saw the news that Reset our first brand to enter Marriott’s or outdoor collection. Yeah. We’ve noticed that when you continue to diversify and not really just say, okay, we are just this type of company, making sure that we’re leveraging the expertise of our team. Mm-hmm. We can be many things – Yeah. To many customers. Yeah. And so lev – continue that leverage, that growth, but we do see that growth continue to be in experiences. Yeah. Right? So every brand is rolling out how they’re working with experiences. But what we do see, that lifestyle, outdoor – Oh, yeah. Experiences. We’ve had our first entree into it, and we’re gonna continue to grow. Ryan Embree: Awesome. We’re excited to watch that growth, and yeah, that experiential travel continues to be something, conversations we’re having here, prioritizing, that’s what the guests are prioritizing travelers are. Congratulations on all this. We continue to watch it with PM Hotel Group. Thanks, Erica. Erica Lipscomb: Thank you. Ryan Embree: Hello, everyone. Ryan Embree here with The Suite Spot. We are live on location at the 2026 Hotel Data Conference. I am here with Max Spangler, VP of Technology at Charlestown Hotel. Max, we know you’re on a panel tomorrow. We’ll talk about that in a second, but thanks for taking the time to join us. Max Spangler: Absolutely. thanks for hosting me, Ryan. Ryan Embree: Yeah, Gotel Data Conference. Name of the game, data. We’re gonna talk about, obviously, your role and, and where data plays into that. But first, you come to a conference like this, what’s the expectation? What do you hope to get out of it? And maybe when you’re a couple weeks down the line, looking back on the conference, that was a success. Max Spangler: Yeah, you know, for me, I spend a lot of time at conferences that are very narrow in scope, right? Sure. Whether it’s high tech or the hospitality show, or even technology conferences that are outside of hospitality. Sure. So coming to HDC is always great. It’s always refreshing. The keynote panel in the beginning always gives me, hopefully, optimism. And this morning, it was very optimistic – Yes. About the way things are going. So I’m thankful for that. But it’s great to hear from commercial peers how they’re using data, how they’re surfacing insights, what tools they’re using, and how they’re turning it actionable. I mean, I think for me, as someone who spends a lot of time staring at screens, developing tools, looking at dashboards, hearing from people that actually depend on this information – Yeah. So crucially is really refreshing. So I get to, like, cut through the noise a little bit and hear what’s working, and hopefully hear what’s not. Ryan Embree: Yeah, and that’s what leads to your panel tomorrow, connecting AI to commercial strategy. Yeah. Uh, maybe give our sweet spot listeners a little bit of sneak peek and maybe your thoughts on the subject. Max Spangler: We’ve got a great panel tomorrow. Super stoked for it. You know, so we, we had a pre-cause you tend to do with those panels. Right. And as a result of that, we decided to zoom out a little bit, which I though was important. So commercial still is the through line, as you would expect at HTC, but given the man – the, the members that are on the panel, we’ve got some people that, you know, are on the, the, the revenue management side. We’ve got some people from HFTP. Um, you’ve got me as an independent operator. It w- we felt, we felt it really important to say, “Let’s, let’s zoom out. Let’s take a pause and, like, let’s look at where the industry is holistically.” Sure. And so the questions are really driving off that. So you’ll find that, um, there’s insights about a year from now, what would we like to be doing differently, right? How are we driving ac- actionable insights? What KPIs are important? What KPIs are important? Yeah. Things like what’s the difference between automation versus th- this new agentic era? Mm. So I think it, um, I’m actually really excited for it. The panel’s great, and I think you’re gonna get some, some really interesting insights from a variety of different opinions. Ryan Embree: Yeah. And what we talked about is so much can change. Yeah. And you could talk about what could happen in a year. I mean, that could be a couple cycles with technology right now. And that’s why I, I was really looking forward this conversation, Max. Yeah. Because, you know, I get industry leaders, sometimes brand leaders, but you’re, you’re in it every single day, right? Yeah. Uh, VP of technology. Yep. Where do you think we are in the AI adoption – Yeah. Uh, uh, cycle? And then maybe zoom in a little bit on Charlestown Hotels. Max Spangler: Yeah. So if we, if we look at sort of where things are globally for the state of AI, I think obviously in the technology space, it’s an existential crisis, right? Right. I mean, I think you see that in, in jobs reports. I think you obviously see it in the way that they’re measuring AI as an accelerant. Yeah. You know, so, uh, friends of mine that work for tech companies, they’re seeing their time to release production code going from five weeks, four weeks down to one week. Wow. It’s easy for them to measure. It’s easy for them to see the outcomes for us. Yeah. I think it, it is ultimately a little bit more difficult. For Charlestown, you know, we think it’s really important to keep hospitality at the center of what we’re doing, right? And so we’re not parading around trying to be an AI company or a SaaS company. We firmly believe people and hospitality at the center of, is gonna be at the center of what we do.m. How do we use AI to power that? Whether it’s through efficiencies, you know, through maybe more sophisticated RMS, through, you know, generative guest insights. How do we make sure that we’re being discovered when people are asking what’s the best hotel in downtown Charleston, South Carolina? Those are really hard questions to answer. No one’s got it figured out. But the conversations that are happening here are super encouraging because I think there is a lot of people admitting that and coming together to try to find, um, the best path forward. Ryan Embree: And you were, this is not your first per – podcast that you’ve been on recently. I saw you, uh, on CoStar News Hotel podcast where you talked about escaping hospitality’s AI hype echo chamber. Yeah, yeah. What’s your thoughts on that? And maybe how do we avoid doing that here in, in spaces like this? Max Spangler: I mean, it’s, if you go on LinkedIn, you can feel like, you know, FOMO is like a- absolutely crushing you, right? Right. Everyone is, like, piloting something new. Right. Everyone is, is advancing seemingly at the speed of light. It’s really important to come to a conference like HTC, uh, to get a real life temperature check with what people are doing and how they’re doing it. There is a tremendous amount of hype. There’s a tremendous amount of potential, but I think for a lot of us, and especially from someone sitting in the seat of an operator, you have to be very disciplined. Yes. You know, you have to have a step-by-step sequence of how you’re actually gonna accomplish this. It’s okay to introduce a little bit of chaos. We’ve done that in the early days. I mean, if you go back, you know, to 2023, 2024, we’re experimenting with all the frontier models. But eventually, we wanted to collapse that into a unified choice, pick one model so that we can move forward and start measuring, you know, are our team members crawling? Who’s walking? Who’s running? How do we devise resources to help kind of get everyone on the same page, march in the same direction, and get better at this? Yeah. And so that, that’s, that’s been our strategy. And fortunately, like, that’s what I’m hearing here at the conference. Ryan Embree: And the motivation for implementing AI can’t come out of fear of we’re not doing enough. Yeah. Or, you know, we’re just, that FOMO feeling that you’re talking about, it has to have, what you said, discipline and direction. Yeah. And Max Spangler: Ryan, like, fear is a huge part. I mean, that’s one of the things that we’re constantly up against. There’s. I, I think the, the negative attitude and apprehension towards AI is only gonna continue to grow over time, right? Just like the excitement over it is gonna continue to grow. Yeah. Same thing’s true for the negative. I mean, you have people that absolutely have their head in the sand, which is okay. Right. Um, for, for certain reasons, you have people that obviously have negative feelings about it because of the socio – uh, economic impact. Sure. Companies potentially might be laying off job just Placement or replacement as a result of LLMs and the technologies that they introduce. There’s the environmental factors. So, like, all those things are absolutely true. We don’t think it’s, as Charlestown, our responsibility to sort of correct that. Right. But we do wanna make sure our associates, team members, and corporate, and corporate leadership team know this isn’t going anywhere. Yeah. It’s fundamental core to the business, and we’re gonna make an investment into our teams to make sure that they’re prepared for this new wave, whatever it looks like. Ryan Embree: It’s exciting times. And it’s okay to experiment fail sometimes, because that, that’ll show you some lessons too. Sure. Max Spangler: Yeah, we. Yeah, we’ve run so many pilots. We’ve had so many things fail. We’ve incinerated millions of tokens and subsequently thousands of dollars as a result of – Yeah. Um, so many pilots, but we’ve learned a lot. Yeah. Uh, and we’re in a much better spot as a result of it. You have to be willing to take risks, especially now. I do believe, like, no one’s gonna be left behind yet, but there is absolutely an advantage to being a first mover. And I think the companies that are at least experimenting and building AI fluency for their teams are gonna be much better, uh, much farther along than everybody else. Ryan Embree: 100%. And, you know, one of those spaces is, is the data, right? That’s, I mean, that’s the name of the game of this conference here. Yeah. How are some ways are you leveraging data to kind of – Yeah. Grow Charlestown hotels or even just create efficiencies? Max Spangler: Yeah. So for us, it, it, it is a challenge to think about the kind of company that we are. We focus mostly on the independent space. Mm-hmm. So we don’t have sort of the technology through line like the brands have where – Sure. You know, they can force a certain PMS, POS, CRS, like, it’s very clean and organized and scalable that way. Yeah. For us, you know, when we come into a new hotel operating environment, in most cases, technology hasn’t been a major form of investment, right? I mean, most people don’t come to Charlestown hotels with a great performing asset. They’re like, “We’re in trouble. We need your help.” Right. So then I come in, you know, from the technology perspective and it’s like, okay, this is difficult. How are we gonna extract information, put it into a centralized place, be able to sort of layer a, a, a, a BI tool or reporting package on top of it to actually surface the insights so these one-off owner operators can get the insights that, like, a company like Charlestown Hotels can deliver at scale with all the independent properties and things we’ve learned across the secondary and tertiary markets that we work in. Max Spangler: So, I mean, to put it simply for us, it is about having, like, a central data repository or warehouse. Sure. I mean, there’s plenty out there. Databricks, Snowflake. We’re a BigQuery customer. We do a lot with Google. Um, but it is, you know, if, if you think about where things are going to bring it back to AI, so much of the conversation surrounds having a good data foundation, because AI is an accelerant. If you have bad data, it’s gonna accelerate you to bad outcomes more quickly. Yeah, that’s a great point. If you have a bad business strategy, it’s gonna optimize for the wrong KPIs. So for us, it is very much about having solid fundamentals. Yeah. That’s not a reason for you to stop, right? It’s just more a reason for you to proceed cautiously. Ryan Embree: Absolutely. And, you know, you do it right. All of a sudden, you get that personalization, which, you know, hospitality’s been really the last decade – Yeah. Has been striving so much for to get that personalization within the guest experience. So as we wrap up, you know, we always like to. I know this is gonna be difficult because, like we said, things change so quickly in the tech space. Yeah. But what’s your vision for Charleston Hotels from a technology perspective? Max Spangler: Yeah, great question. I thought you were gonna ask me a hard one, like, what’s my favorite color? But, uh, no, for, for. Vision for technology, you know, for us, as long as we keep, like, hospitality at the center – Yeah. As our north star, that really does simplify things for us. It is gonna be difficult. There’s, you know, obviously a whole host of different frontier models you have to choose from. Tokenomics is gonna continue to be a big part. People talk about ROI with LLMs, but no one’s really talking about the expense – Yeah. And expenses continue to grow. Great point. Right? So we’re, we’re focused really on, you know, not only the, the ROI from some of the LLM tools, but, but obviously the tremendous cost that’s associated with running them at scale. But as long as we keep people and human beings at the center, reducing mundane work, admin tasks, friction so that our people can spend less time in front of screens and just be more hospitable, I think that really is the vision. Technology’s gonna support that. It’s gonna hopefully be more invisible to the people that come to hospitality. They didn’t come to, like, move information around – Right. Push paper or spend time in front of a computer. They spent it to, like, be empathetic, to be excited – Yeah. To surprise and delight. And so our goal, that’s our north star, and technology’s gonna be there to support it. Ryan Embree: Yeah, I mean, some industries, you’re, you’re right, are gonna be completely flipped upside down – Yeah. With this technology. But hospitality, we have that advantage of being a people first industry, so. Max Spangler: I, I think it’s, like, the, the key differentiator, and it honestly, it’s like, hospitality has an opportunity to have a really strong opinion. As so many industries are completely rolled over by this AI wave – Yeah. Hospitality can actually say, “No, you know what? People are…” And people in hospitality are at the center, and so as there is potentially more AI backlash and people are seeking more authentic experiences – Right. With people and connections – Yeah. I think it’s, it’s gonna be a great benefit to our industry. Max Spangler: Yeah, and we’ve seen from the data, experiences still seem t be – Yeah. I think that’s gonna grow. Yeah. Ryan Embree: Yeah. Agreed. Uh, Max, appreciate the time. Thank you. Uh, we’ll keep an eye on Charleston Hotels and everything you’re doing over there. Great. Congratulations. Max Spangler: Thank you. Ryan Embree: Hello, Everyone. Ryan Embree here with The Suite Spot. We’re live on location at the Hotel Data Conference 2026 here with Sam Trotter, Head of Digital Marketing for Indigo Road Hospitality Group. Sam, thanks for taking some time. Sam Trotter: Thanks for having me here. Yeah. I’m excited to be here at the Hotel Data Conference. Ryan Embree: It’s our first time here, but you said you’re, you’re a pro. You’ve been here for many years. Yeah. What does a successful hotel data conference look like for you and some of the takeaways that you look for? Sam Trotter: I really love having a good sense of what’s gonna happen next year. So you get some really great data here where you actually can take to your business planning sessions and use and say, “Hey, you know, I have this from the data conference, and they’re forecasting this growth in this market.” And you have something tangible. Yeah. So you’re about to head into budget season. Yeah. So having that in hand is really, really nice. Ryan Embree: That’s a big part of it. I mean, budget season, you gotta make those operation efficiency. We talked about the margins, how tight those are right now, especially in hospitality. One of the ways that hospitality’s changing right now is through AI search. You were on a panel here. For those that weren’t able to join us here in Nashville, maybe unpack that topic a little bit, because it’d certainly be top of mind for a lot of hoteliers right now. Sam Trotter: Well, it was really fun. It was a packed house, so a lot of interest in it. There’s a lot to talk about. I think we did a little bit of an intro to the topic, just so that everybody was sort of on the same page. But this is a new thing that we’re all having to adapt to. And we’re gonna have to focus on this. And in the panel, I said, “This feels a lot like 2006 when SEO was becoming a big thing.” And I remember I hired this French couple to do our SEO for this hotel that we were opening. It was like $10,000. In 2006. And it felt kinda like magic. Yeah. You know, like, what are they, what are they actually gonna do, right? And so it’s really tough. Who do you listen to? What actually works? And it was a great panel. And there’s no main takeaway other than we’re doing a lot of AB tests. We’re trying to figure out what works. I’m looking at the dashboards from our different properties. Who’s doing well? Who’s not? Yeah. And trying to pivot. And so we’re at this really interesting phase where it’s not really clear, right? Everybody’s telling us different things. Who do you listen to? So I honestly think it’s really exciting. Ryan Embree: The good news is it’s a challenge that a lot of people are attacking at once, right? And that’s where you’re gonna kind of find maybe lessons learned, even in those failures. So I think it is interesting because ultimately what happened with SEO is, like, there became a little bit of of a game plan that you could attack it with, right? That people are still trying to kind of balance. And then there were switches, right? That’s the other thing, is you could attack it one way and then all of a sudden, next week, algorithms change and it’s back to square one. So it was very, very interesting. But I think it’s events like this and panels that you’re on, Sam, that help kind of. Where everyone’s going through this right now. And to try to get through the weeds on it and try to figure out what is a good course of action here. And it changes so quickly. I think AI gets a spotlight, obviously, for good reason because it’s just this up and coming technology. But digital marketing also feels like it’s fast changing and evolving. And it’s been doing that for the past decade. You think about social media updates and everything like that. Yeah. I guess, how do you view digital marketing right now from a strategic standpoint and, and how hoteliers should be embracing and, you know, maybe investing in It? Sam Trotter: So that was a big question, right? Ryan Embree: Yes, sorry. Sam Trotter: When I have new marketers join, junior marketers, I always tell them there’s really no such thing as an expert anymore. Because it’s gonna change next year. Right? Ryan Embree: Great point. Sam Trotter: There are certain fundamentals that will help you no matter what, from 10 years from now, they’ll always be in play. I think what’s really interesting now with AI is I feel like there’s more emphasis on brand and category ownership. So if the AI is the most educated person in the entire world about hotels in Nashville. I mean, that’s what it is. Sure. It’s the most educated person in Nashville. What do you wanna teach it? And so if you’re teaching it, I have a pool and a fitness center, that doesn’t really help, right? ‘Cause now you’re just the same. And so what category can you own? Can you be the wellness hotel of Nashville? And if you’re the wellness hotel of Nashville, what that looks like is everything we say and we do reflects that. So I have spa packages, we have spa activations, we have a spa month. We have an amazing spa. We have spa content. We have spa creators that come in. And so when you’re doing that, all of a sudden the AI’s like, “Okay, no, this is the spa hotel of Nashville.” Because it’s, there’s evidence. Yeah. Right? And so I think there’s gonna be more emphasis on this category ownership, right? More than ever. And that boils back down to your brand. Ryan Embree: No, I love that. I think that’s a great explanation to someone who might feel overwhelmed in this right now. But those searches also could get very specific, right? I’m looking for a place that’s pet friendly, that is dedicated to wellness, where I’ve got my family coming to. So that’s where it gets a little bit tricky of the categories could turn into subcategories and then very, very niche. But it’s also the beauty of it, I think on the other side, is that your travelers are gonna be able to hopefully find the right hotel for them and what they’re looking for. Sam Trotter: So going back to your question, you asked me about social media. Because things are changing so fast, the, what we don’t really realize, and we don’t talk about, is the number one AI that we talk to is Google’s AI overview. That’s the one that when you have a long search, it defaults to, right? And it is weighing YouTube more than any other social platform – Great point. Because they’re not giving access. Right? So TikTok’s not giving them access. So now all of a sudden, YouTube is like this big player. And so we’ve got 76 locations. How do you scale YouTube? Yeah. And so, you know, we’re trying to figure this out in real time, and it’s a lot. There’s a lot of change happening. Ryan Embree: No, that’s a great point, what you said about Google, because a lot of people might be listening to this being like, “Well, I’m not, I’m not really looking, or I’m not using AI in my everyday life.” Well, Google’s really, you know, that AI overview, you are using, right? And it’s just, it’s gonna become more and more, whether we know it or not, a part of our life, you know? So that’s a different conversation. You know, Sam, Indigo Road Hospitality Group, you just mentioned tons of locations. What are some of the projects you’re most excited about that you’re working on right now? Sam Trotter: So, we have amazing locations, and there’s so many that are really interesting that we have coming up. We’re dabbling in more and more to membership clubs. Which is something that, we have one right now in Bentonville, and then by the end of the year, we’ll have two more. So we’re going from zero to three in a pretty short amount of time. It’ll be like a year and two months, we’ll go from zero to three. So it’s something that has been really fun to learn about, and there’s new platforms to learn about. So that’s really exciting. And then, I’m working on some fun data projects too, fun to me. I’m trying to set us up to have our own loyalty program. And so I’ve got some cool things in the works. So I’m really excited about that because we have a diverse portfolio. We have coffee shops and restaurants and hotels. And venues and how do you get them all to talk? Right? How do we put them all in one place, but have them separate? How can we share notes? How can we improve the guest experience? So there’s a lot of really cool things that are happening now. And one of the benefits of AI is partners are, are improving their platforms faster than ever. Oh, yeah. Which is fun if you have the right partners. And they are doing it. Ryan Embree: Yeah. I mean, and loyalty programs, you also learn more about your guests and hopefully create personalization, which is, you know, a topic that has been in hospitality. But we’re getting closer and closer, I feel like, to what we may have talked about five years ago at a conference like this. Be like, “There might be a time where we could do this, and now with the power of AI, it, it’s possible.” Yeah. Well, as we wrap up, kind of what’s your. I know we just talked about the future, but, and it’s hard to predict, but what would be kind of your vision for the future, in your role at Indigo Hospitality Group? Sam Trotter: I would say that, I guess thinking more optimistically, ultimately, it’s gonna be about the guest experience. It’s gonna be about the surprise and delight. It’s gonna be about having great employees who are happy to be where they’re at and that wanna be there. And the best marketing is a great experience, right? So what’s my role in that? You know, how can I help operations do their thing? And that’s the foundation of everything. At the end of the day, I think that’s it. Ryan Embree: There is a, there is a comfort, Sam, to being in an industry that we knew can only be disrupted so much by AI, but at the end of the day, it is gonna still come down to people serving people and creating those memorable experiences, and hopefully AI gives the opportunity to do. Sam Trotter: I have a anti-trend for you, right? Okay. So we’re here at, at the Grand Hyatt. There’s no kiosks, right? Check in. There’s still front desk people. 10 years ago at the hotel data conference, I think we would’ve though it was all kiosks. So hospitality has reigned supreme, and I think that’s the future. Ryan Embree: Yeah for, they say hospitality is the first ever industry and it’ll be here for a long time. So Sam, we appreciate it. We’re gonna watch you and, and everything you’re doing over there. We appreciate you taking some time with us. Sam Trotter: Thank you you so much. This was a lot of fun. All right. Ryan Embree: To join our loyalty program, be sure to subscribe and give us a five-star rating on iTunes. Suite Spot is produced by Travel Media Group. Our editor is Brandon Bell with cover art by Bary Gordon. I’m your host, Ryan Embree, and we hope you enjoyed your stay.

In this episode, Tiff and Nikki talk about a critical piece under the marketing umbrella: networking with people in your community across different "genres" of expertise. They discuss knowing your demographic, building a two-way street of referrals, leaning on your hobbies, and a ton more ways to get your business out there and being talked about. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are excited to be here. I say it every single time and we truly, truly mean it. I think you guys believe me and know that by now Nikki is here with me today. Nikki, thank you so much for being here. this is our podcasting morning and we block out the a morning, we do a couple hours and make sure that we get the best content we possibly can out to everyone. I'm actually really excited about this one. We just talked through it. for those of you who don't know, our marketing company, they   comb the internet and they comb our calls, they look through all of the data and information they possibly can and look for the best topics they can help us think of, and then they deliver those topics over to us. So for all of you out there, if there's a topic, subject that you've loved you want more of, please let us know. If there's a topic that you're like, gosh, I wish these ladies would just talk about this or dive into this more, let us know. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com   you can tag any one of us in there. Doug is our podcast guru in the background today. and of course we're the ones recording them. So if you've got ideas, we love ideas. We love nothing more than to bring you the stuff that you guys actually need. So Nikki, how are you this morning? Thank you for being here. We were talking earlier about our random Arizona summer storm, which I think it's gone and it's like just hot and humid now, and here we are. So anyways, how are you today?   Nikki Mack (01:23) so good. I know recovering all the damage, you know, the flipped over chairs, the lawn furniture. Nothing flew out of the yard this storm. So always a win, but I'll take it. The hot is worth it because the storms are beautiful. And   Tiffanie (01:37) They are.   Nikki Mack (01:37) in a couple months it's gonna be amazing. We're gonna be really, really happy. Maybe we podcast outside. Just kidding. That's crazy. But   Tiffanie (01:44) you would be so happy.   Nikki Mack (01:45) happy to be here this morning inside in my AC in the aftermath of the storm for sure.   Tiffanie (01:52) Same. Kiera and I did podcast because I think we've done it twice. We've done we've podcasted from South Mountain here in Arizona. Yeah. And   Nikki Mack (01:59) Amazing.   Tiffanie (02:00) that was when that was I mean that was gosh, we were just starting. That was a long time ago. And then we've podcasted from a mountain across the street from her house in Nevada. So and that was our I think that was our birthday podcast last year or the year before. So you never know. We might end up outside. I do love being outside as an Arizona native.   as I'm sure you do as well when it's not 115 or humid. Yeah. Arizona   Nikki Mack (02:25) When it's one hundred and fifteen.   Tiffanie (02:28) doesn't do well with humidity. Like it's been a little humid this summer, and I'm like by a little I mean like there's been like five to ten percent humidity out there, and you feel every ounce of it. So I'm ready for just good weather. so with that, thinking about outside, thinking about outside of ourselves, I love   marketing. It's one of my favorite things in the whole wide world. Like to me, I think communication is marketing. Like I'm constantly marketing myself, right? Who I am, how I show up, and like how I speak to people is marketing. I I just think marketing is showing up in a certain way to get the result that you want. And people overextend it, they overcomplicate it and they think that they have to do it a very certain way. And the reason marketing is   It's a an amazing tool, but the reason it sucks is because it's really hard to like guarantee results, right? So there isn't a certain way. There are multiple stabs in the dark that we take to get different results. And luckily, our blessing is that we get to see a lot of those different ways. We have a lot of practices. We've worked in a lot of practices. We've taken shots in the dark and   really figured out and narrowed in some things that work. And today I really wanted to talk about like strategic community networking and becoming partners with different people in the in the community, different networks in the community and just different genres outside of dentistry. And I think it's really important for dental practices and dental practice owners, business owners in general to do this. I know Toastmasters used to be like this massive thing. It's still here. Like I know someone who does Toastmasters and   She's like the shyest, like most internal person. She's like, I will learn how to talk to people. And so like Toastmasters is still a thing, but the best thing about Toastmasters is wasn't hasn't always been that you learn how to speak in public. It's the community that you build and those referrals, right? And you know, my fiance is a business professional and   Within his profession, he goes to networking events a lot. He's not a good, like he he's a very internal person as well. But he goes and he does these networking events because then he can refer his own clients or his friends. We've used people to, you know, by referral. And building that network totally changes the game because it's a bit like it's a forward and backwards. Like I refer to you, you refer to me, we know each other.   We help each other, all of those different pieces. So I wanted to talk a ton today about how to strategically build that community as a small business owner and a dental practice owner, you know, in any town. And Nikki to your point earlier and maybe speak to this a little bit, you were saying the reason that we and the reason marketing isn't super cookie cutter.   is because we all live in different demographics. But I do think we have some great ideas that could work anywhere. But Nikki, take us through some of what you were talking about there. Like why does it make a difference that where we live?   Nikki Mack (05:42) Absolutely.   Also, quick nerd alert. Five years in Toastmasters back in the day. So a hundred percent.   Tiffanie (05:47) There you go, I knew it. I should have known that.   Nikki Mack (05:52) yeah, I think when we talk about, you know, things not being cookie cutter and knowing your demographic marketing, especially, especially if we're talking community outreach, is a huge place to be in. you know your demographic. This isn't even where I'm like, okay, doctor, sit down and like think about your patients. You know your patience, your team knows your patients.   What is important in your area? What are the things that people post about, go to, talk about? And then being able to lean into that opportunity. Do you have if you're a pediatric office, right? We were just talking about this one. are you right in the middle of a bunch of school districts or a lot of school areas? Do the school nurses have your office information, right? do you participate in teacher appreciation week?   Like what does your outreach look like in those areas? Because not just for the teachers who deserve the world, of course, but also that's when they talk to parents, right? Or the parents that come and see who's taking care of their teachers as well, you're building that not just relationship, but that reputation. And that's what really drives those referrals, that culture, that everything we talk about. Now, maybe if you're a very specialized, I don't know, periodist.   sponsoring teacher appreciation day might not yield the same results, right? So this is where I say, like, know your area, know your demographic. every city has a chamber of commerce, right? the action level and what you kind of get for that membership varies everywhere. But if you look into it and it responds well with your culture and what you're driven, especially if you're very community focused and they do have a lot of those opportunities.   Reach out, right? You know, sign up, try it out for a year. Usually it's an annual membership or so, because the relationships you're gonna build to Tiff's point with those other business owners in the community too are going to be very impactful and possibly spread that reach even further than you would have thought of. And a network who's also trying to actively market and grow their business, what a resource. Because we may not all   Tiffanie (08:02) I see.   Nikki Mack (08:02) be dental, but we can share best practices.   share opportunities and even partner on certain things sometimes. So knowing your demographic, knowing what's really key and crucial, so important. If you're a downtown people commute in, you're right by all the businesses, well, the community pieces might look a little different for you. And so maybe you find out that who did what who did we use Wells Fargo, right?   Tiffanie (08:29) Mm-hmm.   Nikki Mack (08:30) Wells Fargo corporate building is a block from your office.   Does that HR lady know your name, right? Are you guys in network or do you file out of network for them? Knowing your audience is a great way to start before we just cause marketing when it doesn't work is exhausting. So let's be strategic to start and and get some really good results.   Tiffanie (08:54) Yeah, I love all of that. All of that. There are a few pieces there I wanna point out. You said referrals, right? Well, you said periodonist that might not yield the same results and it made me think, Okay, well, how much work are we doing to build the relationship back with those referring practices? I know when I was in that or in office I used to ha have a gosh, get my words together, an orthodontist.   that was really had a really close relationship with our doctor because of a community networking group that they were a part of outside of the dental practice and they routinely sent us families because families found them without a GP dentist because they knew their kid, their teenager needed braces, right? So they'd go to the orthodontist but need a GP dentist so they'd refer him over. Same with periodonists, you know, people look up implant, they end up at an oral surgeon or or a periodontist and they don't have a GP. You guys need them.   To have a GP, so you send them over. So making sure we're building that two-way street of referrals is huge. The Chamber of Commerce, I love this Chamber of Commerce situation and I've seen it really spike up recently with a few practices that we're working with. And I I have one that comes to mind and he'll know exactly who he is. he joined the Chamber of Commerce a few years ago. He's one of the business owners, but he's also the the like practice manager. He manages the business manager, right?   He joined the Chamber of Commerce for their practice when they relocated into a bigger building and he did it in order to really get to know the community. They lived outside of their community, about an hour outside the community that they worked in for a long time. Then they decided to move to that area, and now they're about five minutes down the road from the practice, which is super convenient. But they didn't feel like they knew the community. They felt like they were outsiders and they wanted to be more invested and involved. So they joined the Chamber of Commerce.   And they really started showing up at different events. They started doing, he did a leadership course through the Chamber of Commerce and through the the City Community College there. He knows everyone in that town. Like they have so many connections and so many amazing businesses that support them and vice versa, they support. And something that I don't think people really understand about the Chamber of Commerce is that it's like just that networking piece, the emails that say, hey,   We've got a ribbon cutting event coming up. Like, cool, there's a ribbon cutting event for a small business. Let me go show face and shake hands and say hello to the new owner and welcome them to business ownership. If there's anything that you come across, by all means, I've been through a lot. I might not know it all, but I might have something to offer and just be a neighbor, like be a friendly neighbor. Those community networking pieces could go so far.   And something else you made me think of. I don't remember why I thought of it, but I thought I think you said knowing your demographics, and you said like what what plays to them, right? And then I thought, Nikki, I've never thought of this before, and I think it might be gold mine. I'm not sure. What   Nikki Mack (11:55) Yeah.   Tiffanie (11:56) are your hobbies? Right? What do you love to do? So I'm thinking we're in Phoenix, so we have a lot of foodies, right? We've got a million restaurants here. So what if a dentist who is a foodie who loves food or a team member   Who is a foodie and loves food, and they go and they try all these restaurants, and you're out there, right? I have we have a restaurant in downtown Buckeye, Arizona. It's phenomenal, best Mexican food I've ever had in my life. And I have grown up in Arizona. Best food. Okay. I tell everyone about this place. What what if your dental practice that's like, hey, these are our monthly newsletters, and also let me highlight our restaurant this month.   what restaurant did we go to and we love in our community or in thirty minutes from here? Because now it's become something that's not just brush your teeth, floss. Like people don't I'm not gonna lie, most people are not reading those. Like they're not they're not. They're just not, right? But if you catch their attention with something like the best hike I've taken since I've lived in Arizona, best hike of the month, best restaurant, best ice cream. I have a doctor who loves popcorn. Like where are you getting your best popcorn? What's your   popcorn flavor this month. Like spice it up a little bit with something that's different. Because as I was as you were speaking earlier and I thought of that, I thought, how cool would it be to be like, you're going to that restaurant? I've actually heard of that. And I'm like, where did you hear about it? It's so obscure. And they're like, actually my dentist. Who's your dentist? Because now you've just created a new conversation topic that you can insert yourself into in a network of people across your whole city.   Nikki Mack (13:37) Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of do you know how sometimes coffee shops or like little bakeries or cafes will have like the question of the day and you   Tiffanie (13:46) Mm-hmm.   Nikki Mack (13:47) answer when you come in? I've seen some dental practices do that, right? Like they have   Tiffanie (13:51) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (13:52) their question of the week or you know, question of the month. and it's just that fun little connection, like you said, and especially if it's something community driven, like what's your favorite Mexican place around here? What's your favorite restaurant? Who's your favorite coffee shop?   to drive kind of that conversation and connection because yeah, then if someone goes and tries it, it's like, how did you hear about us? And you're like, my dentist, actually.   Tiffanie (14:13) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (14:14) it's such a like full circle moment, especially if it's someone that you have partnered with in the past, whether it's meeting each other at a ribbon cutting or you know being at some other event, or they just maybe they're a patient too, right? Like there's always those small world connections and finding ways to close those little links there.   it's always such a neat and unique opportunity because this is why we talk about referrals are the best source for patients because you're it's patients you love referring people they love, right? To come into your practice and they know who you are and like what your culture is. And so when you build those relationships with our networking sources or referral sources and opportunities, it's that same type of environment where they're gonna be referring people   that   fit like what you're looking for and kind of fit that mold. so you just you put so many opportunities out there by by making those connections. I I love that. Also after the cast, I'll need that restaurant. we'll check it out. Okay. Yeah.   Tiffanie (15:14) Totally. Yeah, I will. I will. I'll send it to you. It's so good. It's so   good. and also I was thinking you said, if you've partnered with that person or if they're patients, like why not host we do Invisalign days all the time, right? Or ortho days, Clearliner days, Candid Pro days, whatever you're calling them. and you also do study clubs. Like study clubs are   Nikki Mack (15:38) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (15:39) cool because you need the CE. But study clubs are not like you're not   generating a lot of referrals because it's a bunch of other dentists, right? Why not host a networking like day, right? Or or a couple hours and a networking group in your dental practice on a Friday morning from like eight to ten AM. You can have muffins and donuts and coffee and orange juice and water and invite your patients that have businesses, real estate agents, insurance brokers, financial advisors, they're all in your patient base, I promise you.   Doesn't mean you have to use them. It means, hey, I know that there's a community of people here who need a networking group. I would love to do a once a month networking group or once a quarter network networking group for two hours. Invite your patients and invite your patients to invite their friends.   Nikki Mack (16:29) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (16:29) Everyone knows somebody. So bring a buddy, maybe every third one. I mean, I would do everyone, but I would do bring a buddy. Like bring a buddy and get a free ticket.   you know, to enter to win the blackstone. I don't know. Do something, but if you were to host something like that for your patients and for local businesses nearby, bam, more. And you're just the whole point in this is marketing is is hard. Marketing is difficult. And we rely on outside sources to do a lot. And I love nothing more Nikki than to look at what can I do? What can I control?   And building a strategic community network, all all it does is start self-promoting your business. Be a good person, know good people. People talk about you. So this whole thing is not only fun, I think, and some doctors might say, like, yeah, you're crazy, you like people. Cool, have your office manager   Nikki Mack (17:26) Yeah.   Tiffanie (17:27) do it. Like, I don't know, ask somebody in your practice is gonna want to do something like this. But what it's doing is it's building your patient base with   out paying for new patients. It's it's a outside the box, out of the normal way of expanding your reach into your community to bring in new patients to your practice to grow your dental practice that's just completely outside the box. And I think in 2026 and whatever year moving forward, you're listening to this, outside the box is what we have to do. The norm just isn't cutting it anymore. You can't just place Google ads   And expect the floodgates to open. You can't just send postcards to your neighbors and expect the floodgates to open. You've got to do something different that gets attention. And building that community and that networking group not only helps you, but it helps all of those other people. And that's when those floodgates open, in my opinion.   Nikki Mack (18:28) I   agree. And I think to your point with when you think outside the box and you come up with an idea, right? Or your team comes up with an idea because it's maybe something they saw or heard or read about, or maybe an idea shared on the Discord that another doctor in a different state   Tiffanie (18:42) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (18:43) used, right? And you're like, I want to do that. Here's what I feel like happens a lot. I want to do that, but I know I don't have time. And so I shelve   Tiffanie (18:50) Mm.   Nikki Mack (18:50) it. Right. Or like, I don't have the bandwidth. Like I absolutely love the network hosting idea.   I don't have the bandwidth to organize that. Well, guess what? There's probably a local group already out there that is doing these things or looking for places to meet. I know in my neighborhood area in Phoenix, we have this huge Facebook group that they do a lot for networking. There's a couple people who run it. They host networking events. They host like open table nights for the neighborhood for people to come and meet each other. And one of the things that they're always looking for is places.   to host. So   Tiffanie (19:27) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (19:28) maybe you don't have the bandwidth currently to create a networking group, right? And host them and do all of the the kind of legwork. Absolutely. But if you like that idea and you have the space, if you have a beautiful break room, right? Or a beautiful lobby, reach out. I bet you or someone on the team knows a local group. Do a quick little local search, right? Reach out.   make sure that they fit, you know, it's the right type of group, their their kind of vision or what they're searching out to do is what you align with. But I'll tell you what, I've been that person trying to find locations and organize groups and where to meet. And when somebody comes out like, hey, you can use my space, here's what it would look like, right? Here's how we could make it work. my gosh, like game changing. And then now you have just solidified your piece like in this network.   And now that's going to create so much opportunity because we all know once they come in the office and experience you and your team, game changer, right? And they have that   Tiffanie (20:28) Yeah, I agree.   Nikki Mack (20:29) opportunity to do it. So any idea, it doesn't just have to be the network hosting. But if you hear something or see something or think of something and your first thought is, I don't have the bandwidth, don't drop it. How do we pivot? What can we do? How do we adjust it? How do we tweak it so that it is something we could fit in, at least in some companies.   Capacity. And that's where your consultants come in, right? I love those messages, Nikki. I had a great idea. I'm like, yes, lay it on me. Let's talk about it. So you're not alone. You don't have to figure out how to make it work. If it's a great idea, let's work it out. Let's talk it through and see how we can make it work for your practice. You have a network. you have consultants, you have the other doctors with the Dental A Team. There's being out of the box means all hands on deck sometimes. So   Tiffanie (21:18) I agree. one last idea, you were talking bandwidth and I I agree. And I thought, like, okay, you can you said earlier, teacher appreciation, right? Make sponsoring that could also sponsor the mommies and muffins and muffins and mom, like whatever it is, like those types of things as well. But also you could go to the donut shop or the kofi coffee shop or whatever like local small business is near you and say, Hey, here's two hundred dollars.   the next two hundred dollars worth of purchases is on me. So when somebody comes and they order their coffee, all I ask is that you let them know that we purchased it for them and we want them to have a great day. Write a little like motivational like have a great day. You are loved, you are seen, you are whatever on a little card. Give that to the desk and let the let $200 worth of money be your marketing for the morning for that coffee shop. Something   that's just different and people are like, wow, that was so unheard of. Okay, that was my last idea. Listen to this. There's a ton of ideas in here, you guys. And the biggest piece is strategically build your community. Your network, what does Kiera say? There's a there's Kiera doesn't it's not her saying, but it's someone's right. But your net worth is directly correlated to your network. And so the people that you know, the people who are help building you up, the people who are   referring back and forth, the the people that you call when business sucks and even though they're not indental, they can relate to you because they own a business. That's your network, right? So build your net worth by reaching out and building your community network. See what you can do to help other people. Nikki, this was really fun. Thank you for taking the journey with me. I know I made a lot of stops and pivots and turns, but that's what marketing is. So thank you and thank you for your time this morning that you blocked out for me.   Nikki Mack (23:13) Always, thanks for having me. Love talking marketing. Always happy to work through stuff. So I'm really excited to see what some of our listeners come up with.   Tiffanie (23:23) I agree. I agree. And with that, go brainstorm. Drop us a five-star review below and let us know what you did, whether it was something we suggested or something you thought of on your own. Let us know what you thought of. We want to share all of these with the community. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are here to help you to work through it, to brainstorm, to do all of the fun pieces. So let us know how we can best support you. And with that, we will catch you next time.  

How to Improve EVERY Aspect of Your Life: An Interview with J.R. Briggs (Episode 297)   Proverbs 11:24 (MSG) The world of the generous gets larger and larger; the world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller.   *Transcription Below*   J.R. Briggs (DMin) possesses four passions: following Jesus, equipping and investing in hungry kingdom leaders, growing fruit on other people's trees, and creating good kingdom mischief. In short, his calling is to partner with people who are called to follow Jesus while they lead others.   In 2011 he started Kairos Partnerships, an organization committed to help leaders overcome their unique leadership challenges through leadership coaching, consulting, speaking, and writing.   For more than 15 years, J.R. served in pastoral roles in mega-churches, church plants and house church networks. Since starting Kairos Partnerships, he has served and invested in ministry leaders in over 40 denominations throughout North America. In addition to ministry leaders, he has invested in a wide variety of leaders, including business owners, college presidents, military leaders, Division 1 basketball coaches, and non-profit directors.   He serves as a guest instructor in the Master of Arts in Spiritual Formation program at Friends University and the Master of Arts in Leadership program at Taylor University. He has lectured, taught and spoken at over a dozen colleges, universities, and seminaries around the U.S.   He also serves as the Director of Leadership & Congregational Formation for The Ecclesia Network and as a National Trainer & Strategist for Fresh Expressions U.S.   In addition to writing several books on a wide variety of topics, he has also published articles in Christianity Today, Huffington Post, Preaching Today, American Bible Society, N.T. Wright Online, Missio Alliance, and Relevant Magazine.   He hosts the Resilient Leaders podcast.   J.R. and his wife Megan have two sons and live in the greater Philadelphia area. J.R.'s Website J.R.'s Book   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management   Questions and Topics We Cover: Can you contrast Jesus' teaching with field trips to the way we structure a typical Sunday morning in America?  Will you also share how you arrived at asking yourself two questions that have opened numerous doors for you? Once we put this into practice for ourselves, how can we begin to cultivate it in our children as well?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 219. Training Our Children in Biblical Financial Stewardship with Matt Bell   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:44) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   J.R. Briggs is one of the most intriguing humans I've encountered, and it's hard to sum up his bio, as he's had so many experiences in his past through various pastoral roles, and then he became the founder of Kairos Partnerships, where he invests in leaders. He's also a podcast host, in addition to his work as an author. His most recent book is The Art of Asking Better Questions, and it's summed up in the intro, where he writes, "I have a bone-deep conviction that all of us need to ask more questions and better questions. Doing so can change your life and the lives of those around you." So now we get to actually learn how to make this happen with my guest, Reverend Dr. J.R. Briggs.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, J.R.   J.R. Briggs: (1:44 - 1:45) Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to this, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (1:46 - 2:00) Well, I'd love to go back and first hear a little bit more of your origin story. So, do you attribute your love of questions and your skill for asking great questions more to nature or nurture?   J.R. Briggs: (2:01 - 5:04) That's a fantastic question. No one has ever asked me that, Laura. So, right off the bat, well done. I love good questions like this. I think it's a little bit of both, and I'm not just wimping out on that answer. Here's what I mean.   I grew up in a wonderful home, still great friends with both my parents, and my parents, especially my dad, they were great question askers, and I saw them model this really well in the home. And I think in previous generations, it was, you know, kids are to be seen but not heard. That was not how my parents operated. They very much said, "You know what, we want to know what you think." And so, dinner times were great. Even hearing the way, especially my father would ask questions of people in the lobby at church or our neighbors, or we'd be at some party, and the way he would ask questions, I would just listen and say, "Wow, this is fascinating, the kind of conversations that are happening because of this."   So, modeled really well, but also observed a lot, and more is caught than taught. And I observed my parents doing this really well. And I thought, these are really fun conversations to just eavesdrop in on as a kid. And then also, I began to notice that there were people that were really fun and lived inspiring lives, and they asked great questions. And I noticed the people that had, that lived really small, uninspiring lives, I realized they weren't asking very many questions. And I began to say, "Well, which kind of person do I want to be? I kind of want to be in the first group. Well, what's the difference? These people are asking questions, regular questions, quality questions." And I thought, "Ooh, I need to pay attention to this and actually lean in to do this more."   So, I often learned how to do it too. So, there was the nature piece, the nurture piece, or the nurture, the nature piece there, the nurture piece, I did study. I'm kind of a nerd. And so, I would watch people who ask great questions and say, "Why was that a good question? What did they do? Why did they ask it that way? How did they know to ask that question as opposed to something else?" And so that was really helpful.   But then I began to notice as I read my Bible, I got a red-letter edition of my Bible and began to notice how many red question marks there were. And I began to take a pen and circle all of the red questions, question marks that Jesus asked. And I thought, "Wow, the way the truth and the life, who had all the answers, yet he asked a ton of questions." So that sent me on a deep dive that eventually I studied. And my doctorate, my dissertation for my doctorate was on learning to equip leaders to ask better questions in the way of Jesus. And so, using him as that model. So, there's a very long answer, Laura, to a very short question, is it nature or nurture? I really believe it's both. And I hope I can continue to learn in my own life until my last breath to how to be a better question asker, because it's that powerful.   Laura Dugger: (5:04 - 5:57) Mm-hmm. I agree with that. And I love the humility in that response. Also, as you share it, it reminds me of a scripture from Proverbs 11:24, the Message version, which I believe previous guest Matt Bell had shared this as it relates to finances. But J.R., I hear it through your lifestyle of generosity with questions. And the verse says, "The world of the generous gets larger and larger. The world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller." So, I love how you illustrated that. But you're also the first person that I heard articulate this beauty of asking questions for connection rather than just for information. So, can you explain more of why questions are such a generous gift and an offering of hospitality?   J.R. Briggs: (5:58 - 8:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, one of the things that really hit me, I touched on this earlier, that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, the second member of the Trinity, who knows everything. Why would he ask so many questions? Well, he also said, "I only do what I see my Father doing." What did he see his Father doing? If you look in the Old Testament, God asks a ton of questions too. So, I said, "Wait a second. Okay. The all-knowing, all-powerful God of the universe, why does God ask so many questions when he already knows the answer?" And that drove me to say, maybe it wasn't just for information.   And I began to think about Adam and Eve in the garden and say, when he says, "Where are you?" It wasn't because God didn't know. And it wasn't a geographical question as much as I think it's a relational and theological question that he wants Adam and Eve to answer. And so, as a result of that, I said, "Why then would God do that?" Well, God already knows, but he desires connection with us. And then I thought, "Ooh, yeah, that isn't just God to us. There are times where I ask questions of my kids when they were younger, or of other little kids at church, where I know the answer already, but I'm asking it as a way of building trust and shared story and connection with them."   And I thought, yeah, there's real connection when it comes to questions. And when we do that, when we offer our full selves, the French philosopher, Simone Weil, she said, "Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity." And as a result of that, that's the hospitality piece. And I think, let's not forget that the word hospital is in the word hospitality, that our questions and our attention can actually be a form of healing that we offer to other people. When we think of hospitality, we often think of, I don't know, making a fresh pie or laying out doilies and sweeping the house before someone comes over. That can be part of it. But the real definition of hospitality is making new people feel comfortable in new situations. And so, what do good questions do? They help people who might feel new or an outsider feel like they're an insider. And I believe that's one of the beautiful benefits of questions where people say, "Man, thank you. No one has ever asked me that." Or "I feel seen. Wow, you really want to care. You care enough to know what I'm thinking." That is an unbelievable gift that we can give to others as a form of hospitality.   Laura Dugger: (8:36 - 8:55) And I think that illuminates what you even say up front in your book, that you do believe that these questions can change our life and the lives of those around us, and especially through this powerful book that you've written. So, can you elaborate on that claim?   J.R. Briggs: (8:56 - 10:33) Yeah, the dimensions of your life expand or contract depending upon the questions that you ask. So, when we refrain from asking good questions, our world gets smaller. And when we start to ask better questions, and more frequently, our worlds begin to expand. And so, what I tell people is we don't have a shortage of information. We have a shortage of wisdom and curiosity and wonder. And so, what we need to kindle in that is that desire for and that ability to ask the right questions at the right time for the right reason to the right people.   And if we want more information, we should just Google it. But if what we're after is wisdom and connection and engagement, we need questions. And questions are, I think we all would admit, Laura, questions are important. I don't think that we would realize just how powerful they actually are. And so, the goal of the book was to unleash and wake up the sleeping giants that exist and say, this can be used for good. There's so many, again, we don't have a shortage of information. But asking good questions is a lost art. And the goal is to try to help people realize its power, that it's more accessible. They're free. They can be used at any time. They don't have a shelf life. But we just need to cultivate the desire for it and then have some skills to lean in, because it really can be such an unbelievable gift. The questions that we ask often reveal the values that we hold. And so that's another way that we can press into that as well.   Laura Dugger: (10:34 - 10:49) Okay, so let's say that the desire is there. Maybe for all of us, probably the skill is a little lacking. How can we begin to get a little bit better at this or just get started with asking better questions today?   J.R. Briggs: (10:49 - 14:18) Yeah, well, we got to start, Laura, by admitting that there are a lot of obstacles that exist that our culture puts in front of us to make it hard to do that. One is we're in an attention-seeking age, right? I mean, the joke says enough about me, what do you think about me? And so, because we live in the social media, look at me, look at me reality that we're in, it's really hard because questions are the opposite. I'm putting the spotlight on you rather than on my own life. But we also are in a culture of great efficiency, and so questions feel inefficient. They feel really inefficient, like it slows things down. How many of us have been in a meeting and we're about to get up and someone says, "Any questions?" And someone, "Oh," and we just say, "No, no, no, we were just about to leave, you're slowing us down." And so that in the business world and in sales, that's the number one thing is questions. We got stuff to do and things to sell. But if we can just slow down, it's better.   But those are some of the obstacles that exist. So, if we're assuming we have curiosity, we have wisdom, we have humility, and we have courage, which are the four components. If those are there, then there are some things that we can engage in that can help us and several practices, like the simplest practice we can do when we hear a good question, write it down. A lot of people feel like two things. They have to come up with all the questions themselves. You don't. I love questions. I'm pretty good at questions, but I don't generate all my questions. I've read them on billboards or heard them on a podcast or overheard somebody in line at Starbucks behind me. And you go, "Man, that's a really good question. Write it down." We think we're going to remember later, Laura, and that's the second thing. We won't. We have to write it down. And I just encourage people, open up the notes section of your phone and just have something on there that says great questions. When you hear of one, think of one, read of one in a good novel, write it on the list. You can always return to it later. So, just awareness, number one, that my radar is up, listening for good questions, can be a great start.   And then also just to reflect later to say, "What was the best question I asked today or in that conversation or in that meeting or over dinner with my family? What was the best question I asked?" So, that's a little bit of reflection, but also preparation. Anytime we go into a meeting, anytime we go into any sort of connection, even if it's coffee with a friend, to always see if I can come with two questions ahead of time. Now, sometimes I write them down, sometimes I don't. I may not even get a chance to ask them, but just coming prepared where I say, "Oh, I'm meeting with my friend, Sam. Oh, Sam's dad just had significant surgery. So, here's an important question. Sam, how's your dad doing? And how are you doing as you care for your dad?" It's a little bit of preparation. It's not an hour. I'm just spending five minutes on my drive to the coffee shop to say, "My first question is going to be, Sam, how's your dad? And how are you doing caring for your dad?" So, just a little bit more thought. It doesn't require three times the amount of effort. Sometimes it's just five or 10% more effort and intentionality that can improve our question asking.   Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 16:29) So much thoughtfulness there. Appreciate that.   And now a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, and Washington, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering; the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection. Featuring nine-foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes such as quartz countertops and garages, you won't want to miss this outstanding new property.   In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.   Clearly J.R., Jesus has been a role model for asking questions. So, can you contrast what you describe as Jesus's field trips that he takes his disciples on versus the way that you view Sunday mornings in a lot of churches in America? Can you kind of contrast those two?   J.R. Briggs: (16:29 - 18:42) Yeah, oftentimes when I'm talking to pastors or leaders, faith leaders, I remind them of this. But yeah, Jesus loved to take his listeners on three field trips, three kinds. First one, he took them on physical field trips. We see that where Jesus says, "You know, look at the birds of the air, look at the lilies of the field," or "Look at the woman putting in two mites in the temple treasury." Life is a classroom. And so, he loved taking people on literal field trips.   Number two, he took them on emotional field trips by telling them stories, not in abstract ways of thinking, but the kingdom of God is like a woman kneading dough. It's like a fisherman who caught fish. It's like a father with two sons. And I think we're wrapped up in that when we watch a good movie, and we cry and laugh and we're scared. Those are all because a beautiful story did something to us. It took us on some sort of emotional field trip.   And then third is a mental field trip, which we're talking about here by asking questions. Jesus asked a ton of questions. And as a result of that, got people thinking in new ways. Now, if the way, the truth and the life, if anyone had the right to just give answers, it would be Jesus. But instead, he chose to ask a lot of questions. And so those three field trips, literal by going on walks, getting outside of a classroom, the mental field trip of asking questions and the emotional field trips of telling stories. Jesus did that all the time. Once you know that and you read the gospels, you'll see it everywhere.   The problem is, as you were referring to, Laura, on Sunday mornings, what do we do? We sit people in a church in pews. Almost all of the teaching or formation happens in the same room. Instead of telling stories, we give abstract information. And instead of asking questions, we just give answers. And then we sit around and wonder, "Why is no one changing?" And my gentle encouragement is, what would it look like if we actually learned to teach others the way Jesus actually taught? Imagine that. So, it's a bit of a stretch because culturally we're kind of drawn in to the way we've always done it in church. And yet oftentimes Jesus did almost the opposite of the way in which we teach today.   Laura Dugger: (18:44 - 18:55) And so, if you see that as an opposite, do you have any practical ideas of just a small tweak that we could make on Sunday mornings to be more like Jesus?   J.R. Briggs: (18:56 - 20:32) Sure. I always try to say, is there any way I can get people's bodies or their hearts up out of the seat? So, "Hey, I want you to stand up and turn to the person next to you." Or, "Hey, we're going to move around the room." Some of you say, "What? We would never do that at our church." And I would say, take a risk. Jesus did all sorts of things that surprise people. So, how can I get their hearts and their bodies up out of their seat? Number one.   Number two, can I tell a few more stories than I have in the past in my teaching or preaching or Sunday morning? And then also, can I engage with questions by asking them questions at the beginning? Can I leave them with some reflection questions in the bulletin or on the website the next week? Or can I actually have them asking questions of each other or of the text itself? And so oftentimes, why do I feel like I'm the one that has to speak the whole time when I'm preaching? What if instead I allow them to ask questions of each other, of God, and even of myself? And sometimes when I preach, I allow the last five or 10 minutes for people to ask questions about the text to myself and everyone else. Now, is that a change? Yeah. Would that freak out some churches? Maybe. But it can be a way that people walk away and say, "Wow, I learned, I was engaged, I was formed, and I encountered God in a new way that I haven't in the past." Which is the whole goal, that we don't just learn more about the Bible, is that we know the God of the Bible. That's the whole point of why we gather together as a church.   Laura Dugger: (20:33 - 20:46) And that would be so memorable. But also, as you're speaking about stories, are you willing to share the story of one of the times that you asked a question, and it turned out better than you could have ever asked or hoped for?   J.R. Briggs: (20:47 - 22:27) Yeah. I could think of several, but sometimes just asking people, "Why is that?" Just as a follow-up. It's amazing what can spill out. And I go, "Oh, that confronted my biases. That confronted my assumptions and what I thought about them." And so sometimes just asking some of that has been incredibly helpful to just ask that follow-up question.   I won't tell the whole story that I recounted in the book, but oftentimes when there are tears, it was Charles Spurgeon that said that tears are like liquid prayers. And so, when people are showing some emotion, I sometimes will say to them, even if they're not a follower of Jesus, even if they're not religious, "I'm curious. It's been said that tears are liquid prayers. Can you put words to the prayers that your face is praying right now?" And I've had some of the most unbelievable conversations where people can identify the prayers that their face is praying. And even in my own life, where I just step back and go, "Why am I, why was I so moved by that novel? Why was I so moved by that movie? Or what just happened in front of me? Or why, where are these tears coming from?" As Frederick Buechner said, we'd be best to pay attention to our tears. And so that question of what are the liquid prayers, can I put words to the prayer that my face is praying has been an unbelievably meaningful and eye-opening thing for me and also with people that I've been with.   Laura Dugger: (22:29 - 22:37) Will you also share about how you arrived at asking two questions that have opened numerous doors for you?   J.R. Briggs: (22:38 - 25:21) Yeah. Yeah. When I was in college, I had the privilege of studying in Israel for the semester. This is fall of my junior year. Absolutely loved it. And our class was on a four-day field trip up around the Sea of Galilee. One night I was down by the lake and happened to notice as the sun was about to set that there was a big fishing vessel that had just come in. And I had always wanted to go fishing on the Sea of Galilee, not just take a boat, not just see fishermen, but like be on the boat and fish with fishermen. I don't even love fishing myself, but I just wanted to experience what Jesus and his disciples experienced on the lake.   And there was a big industrial ship that came in. They brought in their day's catch. And I thought, "Oh, I should ask them if I can go fishing with them." And Laura, and then, you know, the realistic brain in me said, "Why would they ever allow a college, American college student and a study abroad program to go fishing with them tomorrow?" And I had these two questions that hit me, Laura. "Well, what's the worst they could say? No, or heck no, or get out of here. You're crazy." And number two, "Can I handle that? If they were to say that." Those two questions, I thought, "You know, I can handle it now. Let me ask what's the worst he could say. Let me ask."   So, I went up and I said, "Excuse me, can I talk to your captain?" And they said, "Menachem is over here." So, I introduced myself to him and I said, "Menachem, I've always wanted to go fishing on the Sea of Galilee. I'll pay you $50. If I can go fishing for the day, use me as, as I mean, any work me to death. If you want, like I'm here, I just want to." And he looked at me, he said, "I don't want your money." He said, "Join me tomorrow morning at 6 a.m. And you can come fishing with us." And I walked away and went, "Unbelievable. My dream is coming true." And I had an unbelievable day, but I realized I can't say no for someone else. What's the worst they could say? No. Can I just ask and handle it if they said no? Yep, I can handle it. Those two questions, Laura, have shaped me immensely throughout my lifetime. I've really, I've done that in a lot of different ways. And a lot of times people say no, and I can handle that. But a lot of times people said yes. And some doors have opened simply because I asked. And I actually think of that verse often, Laura, where it says you do not have because you do not ask. It's not name it and claim it prosperity gospel. But we just have to realize that sometimes we just need to ask to put ourselves out there and see what people say.   Laura Dugger: (25:23 - 25:55) That is so good. And I have applied those questions since reading that in your book, even as I reach out to ask you if you would do two recordings. So, I'm so grateful that that you said yes, I'm delighted that today's not our only conversation. But I'm curious also, J.R., when you had that experience, a lot of us may not ever get to go fish on the Sea of Galilee. So, did you learn anything that brought the Bible to life or anything about Jesus or anything that you can share with us from that incredible experience?   J.R. Briggs: (25:55 - 27:37) Oh, there's so many, but I'll limit it to one. When we started out that morning, the sea was so calm. I mean, it was like glass. It was beautiful. The sun was rising, not a cloud in the sky. And it was great. But I've always wondered these like storms. You know, the Sea of Galilee is not a sea. It's a lake. It's 10 miles by six miles. It looks like a harp. And that's why it's called Lake Kinneret. In Hebrew, that means harp. So, it's harp lake is the way that we could call it. But I thought it's still a lake. How can there be storms that would have professional fishermen that would be screaming, thinking they were going to die? How is that possible?   Well, wouldn't you know it, Laura? As beautiful as it was, the clouds rolled in. And then later that afternoon, there was a squall of a storm. I have never been in more intense in my life. And it happened right there. Now we're in a maybe two-ton, three-ton fishing vessel. But even that, we had to go below deck because it was so brutal. The waves, the wind, we couldn't see more than 10 feet in front of us. And I thought, "Ah, now I get it. If I'm just in a wooden boat with my fellow, you know, disciples here, I can see why this could get a little panicky." And that was, I think, a little God wink for me to be able to experience both the peace and calm, but also this treacherous storm and go, "Ah, now I won't read my Bible the same again when I hear about the, you know, the disciples freaking out with the storm or seeing Jesus walk on the water approaching them." So, that's one of many, but that sticks out to me a great deal that I got to experience a very intense storm.   Laura Dugger: (27:38 - 28:27) That is so incredible. Even just going back, so those two questions that you were willing to ask led to this incredible experience. And now people from around the world get to benefit from the lessons that you learned at that time. So, I think you're giving us so much encouragement for asking questions.   Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   What happens to our brain or within our brain when we're asking or being asked a question?   J.R. Briggs: (28:28 - 30:19) Yeah, this was an incredibly fun part of the research for me was what does this do neurobiologically to us? And so, what neurologists have found is when they put nodes all over your brain to kind of see how the brain activity happens, when you're given information, your brain lights up. But what they found is when someone is asked a question, your brain explodes like fireworks, the synapses that are firing, and it just lights up like crazy, like fireworks in the night. And one of the things they said, as much as we think we can multitask, we can't. We do a lot of switching, task switching, but not multitasking. But they said what happens is they use the word hijack. You can hijack someone's brain when you actually are asking a question of someone, even if it's for two seconds.   And so, if I were to ask your listeners, Laura, "What are the color of the shoes you're wearing right now?" Whether your listeners liked it or not, I just hijacked their brain for a split second there, and they went, "What are the color of my shoes?" And so that's immense amount of power to, quote unquote, hijack someone's brain. So, we need to use that power wisely. But it's an immense amount of power that we can have when we ask someone a question, not just give them an answer, which I love when current neurobiological research matches up with scripture and with the way Jesus taught. How did Jesus teach? A ton of questions. What happened? He engaged with people. They participated with him. They were forced to learn and be participants, not just talking theoretically about faith. And I thought, isn't that just like Jesus? He knew how our brains are wired. And so, he uses questions as a way of maximum connection, challenge, engagement, and formation.   Laura Dugger: (30:20 - 30:43) Wow. And you've cultivated, like you say, this holy curiosity. So, I am curious for you, J.R., when you're in a conversation and you find yourself asking question after question, have you been in a situation like this where they don't reciprocate, they don't ask any questions back? And how do you handle that internally and externally?   J.R. Briggs: (30:44 - 32:41) Yeah, it's hard because we live in a culture that hasn't modeled that well to ask good questions. And sometimes it's been hard. And I admit that sometimes there's a sense of loneliness. When I have a lunch meeting and my wife will say, "How was your lunch meeting today?" We have a code word where I say either waiter or waitress. And it means the waiter or waitress came and took my plate away because I was done with my meal before they had taken one or two bites of their food. And oftentimes that happens where we leave a meal and we realize, "I don't think I was asked a single question this whole lunch." Or we go to a dinner party, no one asked me a single question. And that can be really hard.   And I love asking people questions. And it's not like I'm just ramming it down their throats to ask question after question like Elf with his brother walking through Central Park where he's just rattling off question after question. I was giving pause, I was taking a bite of my food, allowing them to ask a question or two, and they never did. And sometimes people say, "Well, I don't really know, I'm not good at questions." And I say, one of the simplest things you can do is what I call the way question, W-A-Y. It's just to say, "What about you?" I've been talking. What about you? To just hit the ball back over the net and to allow us to engage in some conversational pickleball. It's been on my side, let me hit it. Now it's on your side and you hit it back. That's how all healthy relationships exist. And so, it's been a little disappointing at times to realize you can go, and I'm sure you and others have experienced that. That's really hard. And to have people that can just say, "What about you? What do you think? Have you ever experienced that?" Or "I have another question for you." That's how healthy relationships are cultivated when there's that back and forth in conversation.   Laura Dugger: (32:42 - 32:51) Okay. And so, if we want to cultivate that back-and-forth conversation, can you just share a few more tips for ways that we can level up our questions?   J.R. Briggs: (32:52 - 34:24) Sure. Yeah. There's a unique, almost universal principle when it comes to question asking. If you ask a generic unthoughtful question, you will almost always get a generic unthoughtful answer. "How are you?" "Fine." "How's your weekend?" "Good." But if you ask a thoughtful, specific, engaging question, you almost always get a thoughtful, specific, engaging answer. It's as predictable as a communist election. It's amazing how that works, where we can just, if we can just level up.   So, if a lazy question would be, "How was your weekend?" I encourage people to say, what would 10 or 15 percent of a more thoughtful, specific, or focused question be? So, you could say, "Of your whole weekend, how would you describe your weekend in two or three adjectives?" That's a little bit different than just, "How was your weekend?" Or, "Hey, how are you doing?" That's good. You might say, "What has been the most interesting thing about your day so far?" It just takes a little bit more intentionality. When you ask it that way, you won't get the fine, good. You'll get the, you know, "I had a really interesting sales meeting today at 10 a.m. You know, I bumped into my neighbor, and we had the best conversation at the mailbox." Those are the kinds of answers you get because we ask the more specific, thoughtful question. We'll get more specific and thoughtful answers. So, that's what I encourage people to do. Just level up to be just a little bit more pointed by 10 or 15 percent and see what happens.   Laura Dugger: (34:26 - 34:40) Okay. So, hopefully we're all going to put this into practice. But then also, if we have children in our home, what can we do to be teaching them this same goal of reciprocity and asking great questions?   J.R. Briggs: (34:40 - 37:02) Yes. I'm so glad you brought this up, Laura. There's so much that we can do. I try to do this. We try to do this with our kids when they were younger. Our kids are 19 and 16 now and we still engage in good questions with them. But when they were little, we would do things. I would crawl into bed with each of them at bedtime and we would do question of the night. And so, I would say, "You get to ask dad any question you want and then I get to ask you any question that you want." And so, age appropriate, you know, what's your favorite ice cream color or ice cream flavor or your favorite color? But sometimes they would pull out some really fascinating ones. Like one time, my youngest son said, "Dad, what does God smell like?" And it just made me laugh. I just thought, what a great question from a five- or six-year-old about that. And so just being intentional there at bedtime has been really good.   Car time is really important. And I really try to see if I can ask some questions that I can't ask in other places because now I've got their full attention. We're in the car together. And even as my sons are now older, when they're in the car together, something about staring out the windshield together to be able to talk through some things has been really good. It could be about school, could be about life, could be something trivial, but to know that this is a place where we can talk. And so, car time, bedtime, and the last one I'll give is dinner time. We have a big chalk wall next to our dining room table. And we'll just randomly put up questions, thoughtful questions. And then we'll sometimes say after prayer, "Okay, boys, when they were little, you know, you each get to pick one question off the wall that we talk about tonight." And it just became a real easy way. And you can make up one if you want, or there are questions here. We also found a deck of cards that actually had questions on each one. It was like a questions deck. And so, we'll say, "Great, like you can pick off the wall, you can make up your own, or just pick a question that's in the deck." And just doing that where everybody got a chance to share around the table became such a way, such a rich conversation but a way to remind them questions are okay, encouraged, and a wonderful part of being a part of a family.   Laura Dugger: (37:03 - 37:32) Those are such great ideas. I love that and that we can implement some of that right away. But as we're starting to wind our time down together, I would love to hear one more story about a time that a question dramatically changed the outcome of a friendly gathering that you write about on the back patio of a Capitol Hill home in Washington, D.C. Yeah, I remember reading this story, Laura, and I was so moved.   J.R. Briggs: (37:32 - 39:52) I was moved to tears that I ran over to my wife and I said, "Listen to this story." And we both just sat there crying. Yeah, these families were on the back porch on a wonderful summer evening enjoying some stuff on the grill. And all of a sudden a gunman came up behind one of the teenage girls and held a gun to her head and said, "Nobody move, give me your money or I'm going to shoot." Everyone froze, rightfully so, the terror that they experienced. And one woman just blurted out the first thing that came to her mind. She said, "Why don't you sit down and have some wine with us?" Which is not something that has ever come to my mind if someone were to walk in and rob me. And sure enough, he put his gun in his belt and sat down and had some wine. And he said, "Boy, this is really good wine." And I said, "Why don't you enjoy some more to eat?" And then afterwards, she said, "Can I give you a hug?" And the guy was totally startled. Yeah. And then afterwards, everyone else decided to give him a hug. And as they enjoyed food, you know, they're all tense and not sure what to do or what's going on. At the end, he said, "Can I have a group hug together?" And then he slipped out the back and even the glass, the wine glass that he had, it wasn't even broken. He just set it up right behind the back gate.   And I just was so moved by that. Like, "Do you want a glass of wine? Do you want a hug?" Not things that would come to my mind, but it was so jolting and surprising. I think it humanized him. And before he left, the robber said, "I think I've come to rob the wrong house tonight." It's amazing what a question can do. That was a question of immense hospitality. You're welcome here. That's the last thing that this robber ever expected. So, I just love that story. I love that story because it reminds us once again how powerful questions actually are.   Laura Dugger: (39:53 - 40:09) And I think it illustrates at the heart of questions is love. And that motivates so much of the work that you get to do, J.R. So, can you just share a little bit more about the work you do get to do and share how we can be connected after this conversation?   J.R. Briggs: (40:10 - 41:07) Sure. Yeah. I've been a pastor for 15 years, but in 2011, I started what's called Kairos Partnerships. And it was passionate about leaders because leadership can be lonely, overwhelming, and sometimes leaders feel ill-equipped. And so actually our organization was started based on three questions. Who pastors the pastor? Who leads the leader? Who shepherds the shepherd? So, we work with some pastors, but we work with all sorts of entrepreneurs and businesspeople and Chick-fil-A operators and college presidents and division one men's basketball coaches, anyone who's following Jesus, but leading others. And so, we do that through coaching, through consulting, through writing, speaking, spiritual direction. And so, our team, I have a wonderful team, and the team really walks alongside of leaders who are wanting to be equipped so they can lead with clarity and confidence moving forward.   Laura Dugger: (41:08 - 41:27) I love that. Well, we will put a link to your website and the show notes for today's episode, but J.R., you may be familiar. We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   J.R. Briggs: (41:28 - 42:03) One of the prayers that I pray regularly is, "Lord, would you grant me wisdom, courage, and compassion?" And all three of those are important because if I have wisdom and courage, but no compassion, I'm careless. If I have wisdom and compassion, but no courage, I'm riskless. And if I have compassion and courage, but no wisdom, that can be reckless. But if I have wisdom, courage, and compassion together, that's priceless. And so, I just try to pray that regularly because I say, "Lord, I want to be a wise, compassionate, courageous person for you." And I would encourage your listeners to pray that prayer for wisdom, courage, and compassion as well.   Laura Dugger: (42:05 - 42:20) Those are great words that I would use to describe you, J.R. And you are humble and warm and engaging. And I have greatly appreciated your book. I've already told people it's my favorite book that I've read in recent history.   J.R. Briggs: (42:20 - 42:22) So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (42:22 - 42:31) Well, thank you. That's very kind of you. Yes, very easy to compliment it. But thank you for being my guest, and I look forward to hosting you again next time.   J.R. Briggs: (42:31 - 42:33) Sounds great. Looking forward to that as well.   Laura Dugger: (42:35 - 45:49) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

In a bonus #amwriting podcast episode, host Jennie Nash talks with academic writing coach Kathy Mazak of Scholar's Voice (and host of Academic Writing Amplified) about how writers keep going after completing a blueprint and finish what they start. Mazak explains her mission-based work helping academics—especially women and non-binary scholars—publish their research by aligning time management and writing with an academic mission statement. She argues that big blocks of time are unrealistic and that one to two hours once or twice a week can be enough if protected and supported by project management systems. They discuss common obstacles like not honoring writing time, fear of disappointing oneself, and harsh peer review, and emphasize mindset work as at least half the solution. Mazak describes managing multiple projects by focusing on a top three, letting others “sleep,” and “killing” stalled “zombie projects,” plus recognizing stage transitions and solving the right problem at the right level. She shares details on her 12-week Navigate program (scholarsvoice.org/navigate) and why members stay for years.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Learn more at http://scholarsvoice.org/.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey everyone, it's Jennie, and I'm here with a bonus episode of the podcast because a lot of our community has been working on their blueprints this summer to begin a new project, find momentum for one that's gotten derailed, or to work on a revision.And obviously stopping to think before you write is critical, but then the question is, what next? And how, how do we keep going? How do we finish what we started? And I invited my friend Kathy Mazak to join me today to have a conversation about this and to get her insights on this topic. Kathy, we're in a business mastermind together.That's how we met, [00:01:00] and we, um, immediately connected because Kathy runs a company called Scholar's Voice, which you can find at scholarsvoice.com. She has an incredible strategic mind, and her work focuses on helping tenured professors get their research and writing out of the endless backlog and actually submitted and published.So it's a different kind of writing than we normally talk about on the podcast, but I know we have a lot of a- academics in our audience, um, who are trying to write nonfiction or fiction or memoir, but also probably trying to publish the papers that are sitting on their desk. And Kathy helps so many people do that work and do it well, and she has really Amazing systems for doing that.And so she's gonna talk a little bit about her program and what she offers at the end, um, or maybe at the beginning too. But, [00:02:00] um, welcome Cathy.Cathy: Yay. Thank you so much for having me. So I know that we met in the business mastermind, but I've been following you for many years before that, and been listening to this podcast, and been subscribed to this podcast for, like, at least since 2019 when I started to, like, look at other writing podcasts.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: And so it is ... It actually has been, like, a dream of mine to be on this podcast, so it's, like, so- Look at us ... great that we're doing this here today. Yes.Jennie: I completely forgot to say that you have a podcast as well. What is, what is the name of that?Cathy: Yeah. The podcast is called Academic Writing Amplified.It has, like, we're headed towards 350 episodes all about, like, getting your, uh, academic papers out there in the world when you're a busy professor. So yeah.Jennie: One of the things that I most like about your business is the way you describe it as it's really mission based. Yeah. It's, it's [00:03:00] really about helping academics take control of the narrative.Yeah. Right? Do you- Yeah ... do, will you tell us about that, ‘cause I love that.Cathy: Yeah. So for me, right, like, as a writing coach, so I was a full professor, like I went through, I have a PhD. I, I, I got my tenure track job. I went all the way through all the ranks, um, before I left and started this, uh, academic adjacent business.But I do it because, like, my big, like, mission is that the more, especially women and non-binary academics who get their papers out in the world, like, the more those voices are changing fields, and influencing research, and influencing thinking. And I just think, like, that is just so important. That's why the business is called Scholar's Voice, ‘cause it's about getting more diverse, typically marginalized voices out in these research spaces.Um, so [00:04:00] to me that's my mission, and when I have ... You know, when, when scholars come and do my program they write an academic mission statement, and really their whole time management, um, and writing project management, and sustainable writing practice is designed to, like, support that academic mission. So it's a very mission based, uh, business for me.But it's also, like, a, like my clients, like w- who take my programs are also, like, putting their academic missions, like, right at the center of their work. Which also puts writing at the center. Because to me, like, the writing is absolutely, is, is, like, the path to creating this better career, this focus on writing.Jennie: Well, and an academic has courses to teach and committees to go to, meetings to go to, and, you know, so many other demands on their time. And somebody trying to write a book has- Yep ... not [00:05:00] exactly those things, but probably a day job, and kids, and, you know, aging parents they have to care for, and the dog, and the car, and, you know, it's, it's writing in, in the real world.Mm-hmm. And the way you set your program up is you've honed this over so many years, i- and it's designed to, to help people actually get the work done. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit about how you structure that program? ‘Cause I think it'll be instructive to helping folks. Like, okay, here, you've finished your blueprint, now what?So- Yeah ... how do you, how do you get people to do it?Cathy: Yeah, yeah. So the first part is that I think that many people, when they think about writers, right, like if they just imagine themselves as a writer, they think that the ideal is, oh, I have like eight hours a day to dedicate to writing, or all my life, or whatever, you know, dreamy scenario we have in our minds.And I [00:06:00] think, like, for academics, i- the, the... it's like, oh, I need to be on a sabbatical, or I need to not be teaching. I need to... I cannot be doing any other thing. Um, or I can be doing other things, but I need like these big blocks of time to write. And the problem is, like you're saying, like writing in real life, like that just doesn't happen.And then when it might happen for academics is over the holiday breaks, like the semester breaks or the summer, but that also isn't true because you're also like, you know, being a mom and, and th- you know, doing things with your family, and managing your house, and maybe your aging parents, and whatever else.Like there's never a time where there's like nothing going on. So we have to stop thinking that that's the ideal and rather think, like what I tell my people, and they- Fight me on this, but at the beginning. But I tell them, actually one to two hours once or twice a [00:07:00] week is enough.Jennie: Ah. AndOutro: they'll be like, “No,Cathy: no,Outro: no,Cathy: IOutro: need-” Say that again.Cathy: Yeah, no. Say that again. One to two hours once or twice a week is enough, ‘cause remember, like, the low end of that means one hour a week, and the high end of that is four hours a week. And so a lot of times people come in and, and I'm, you know, for your, for the audience here, like, think about are you doing one hour a week consistently?Are you doing two hours a week consistently? If you're not, then let's just, like, back up and go there instead of thinking like, “Oh no, I need these big blocks of time that I can never actually get and hold.” ‘Cause that's the other thing, it's so hard to hold a big block. Um, like a four-hour block is hard to o- to hold.Uh, and alsoOutro: hard- Oh my gosh, four hours? ... to maintain your energy through.Cathy: No, no, people- What? No ... people haveOutro: all kinds of ideas.Cathy: And I'm like, and, and the other thing too I think is related to this idea, like for my people, right, that the work day is, like, this eight-hour day. [00:08:00] Like, but you can't ... I'm thinking you're not knowledge work for eight hours a day.Like, your brain can't do that, you know? So we really have to start, just, like, dial it back and start with, like, can I get consistency? Consistency doesn't have to mean every day. Could I get consistent with one or two hours once or twice, or twice a week, and actually do writing during that time so I have project management skills that mean when I sit down I know what to work on, and see how that works?Because guess what? If you did that, you would be ... Like, everything would be moving towards publication, and there would be many more words on the page.Jennie: Well, I love that so much because one of the things that I find is- Well, with writing or business or anything is I'll say, “Oh, I'm working so hard, and I'm so busy on it, and I'm spending all this time on it,” but really what I'm doing is sitting down at my desk and- Yeahrearranging, you know, [00:09:00] the folders on my desktop again. Or- Yeah ... um, you know, oh, I'll just go take a little peek over on Instagram, uh, to transition from... You know, like, it's just- Yeah ... I waste so much time. And-Cathy: Yeah ...Jennie: the- it's- if the, if the idea is, “Well, I got one to two hours, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that time.”Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's why you have a blueprint, right? Like, this is why you do the blueprint because every time you sit down, you are faced with either the blinking cursor, right, the blank page, or you're faced even before that with maybe, like, what do I wanna work on? And so for academics, we're always working on more than one project at once.We always have, like, most academ- some academics are book writers. Many academics are... Almost all academics are article writers, and so you always have... Like, you never just, like, start the research for an article and [00:10:00] then just only do that until it's submitted and out in the world. You always have things at these different stages, like I call it your publication pipeline, but, like, you have things that are in the idea stage, in the data collection stage, in the analysis stage, the writing up stage, things that are submitted, you're waiting to get editorial feedback on them.All of that is happening all the time. So you, when you sit down, you're making a choice between all of these possible projects, unless you have a great project management system, you know? Or unless you have a roadmap that says like, “Okay, well, here's my roadmap. Let me... You're my blueprint. Like, let me sit down and start here.”You know? You ha- you need to have that place to start, or you'll just wheel spin with those, uh, one or two hours once or t- once or twice a week.Jennie: So I'm curious about what other objections people bring to your method. You said the first- Mm-hmm ... objection was, “Well, I, I need these giant blocks of time.” Yeah.What are some of the other objections that you hear to it?Cathy: Yeah. I think a lot of them, and [00:11:00] I think this is so common in, in writers of all kinds, is like, “I'm, I'm gonna let myself down.” Like, the, the, the biggest kind of mental thing is like, “Oh, I've tried it. I've tried to hold that time before, but I've never been successful at it, so if I keep trying, I'll just keep disappointing myself.”Um, whereas, like, the more structures and systems you put into place, the better those things can hold up those one to two hours once or twice a week, and then potentially grow them even. But you have to have, like, it, it can't be just I put it on my calendar- Because there has to be, the mindset has to be in the right place.You have to be honoring that time. Like, you- finding the time on your calendar is problem one for sure, like, because people are booked up. But the second part of that problem is I found it, I [00:12:00] put it there, and then when a student tried to make an appointment with me and they just couldn't possibly find any other time, I put them right on top of my writing.Or what many of the other possible scenarios where you would just schedule over what you had held for writing, and I think that's a That's a situation that's common among everybody with a life, right? Like, “Oh, the plumber said they could come during that time, and here I am just writing.” Just writing. You know, like, that's the first thing that has to change.Like, you have to f- to honor that writing time just like you would honor that really hard to get dermatologist appointment.Outro: That's what it needs to be. That's the level of honoring that we're, that we're talking about.Jennie: I'm laughing- Am I- ... ‘cause I'm looking, I, like, literally have been thinking whilst on this, we're looking at video while we're recording this at how beautiful your skin is, so it's hilarious that you mention that.I'm like, “Oh, wait. Maybe I need to be centering the dermatologist more.” [00:13:00]Cathy: Listen, I don't have a dermatologist appointment. If I did, I would, I would hold that. The one that really resonates for me, and maybe with some other moms of, like, kids, like, school-aged kids, is the freaking dentist. Like, I can't get a freaking kid's dentist appointment.Like, I call and they're like, “Yeah, we're just all booked up.” I'm like, “How is this possible?” You know, and so if there's a dentist appointment, I hold on to that. That's the kind of tenacity we want around the honoring the writing appointments.Jennie: So I wanna stick with this concept a little bit more, because I, I actually was writing about this for the Write Big, uh- Mmbook that I'm working on. Mm. And this idea that the reward of writing is way down the road. It- Mm. We don't really have any evidence that it's gonna actually pay off. Yeah. And I think that that tends to be the reason why it's so easy to say, “Well, this doesn't really matter,” or, [00:14:00] “I c- shouldn't really commit to this,” or, “I shouldn't go all in on this.”And some of that pressure comes from our own selves, as you mentioned. Yeah. But a lot of it comes from the people who love us, who are in our homes even, or, you know- Yeah ... the pressure, like, if you're trying to protect that hour or that four hours in your week and it's, you know, “Well, can you do this errand?”Or, “This kid got sick,” or this. To be, to say, “Well, no, that's my writing time”-Cathy: Yeah ...Jennie: it, it's like, well, what evidence do you have that that's worth anything? Yeah. Right? Is ... Do you find that with academics too?Cathy: Uh, I think that, yes, 100%, um, because the payoff is really far away. Um, but even, like, I would argue that another thing happening in people's heads is that the payoff might be somebody read it and hated it.[00:15:00]Like, so you're also avoiding it because- You know, like the end result might be that you, like turn it into your book coach, and the book coach says you have to redo it all. Right. You know? Or like- You missedJennie: the mark. Right ...Cathy: you missed the mark. Exactly. And so, but like we just don't think of that, or so that fear of that we're gonna do this work, we're gonna hold our writing time, which feels very selfish and feels like who do you think you are that you're gonna hold time for your writing, you know?Like, who are you, Ernest Hemingway? Like, like, you know what I mean? Like we, we have these thoughts in our head, and then we, and then, um, the, the great payoff of all of that hard work of holding the time and actually doing the writing might be, in the case of my people, like that some real A-hole reviewer tears you apart.And-Jennie: Because your- Yeah ... people have to have peer reviews- That's right ... for everything, right?Cathy: For [00:16:00] everything. Even books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everything is peer reviewed, and I mean, I was just coaching somebody yesterday on like why are, why we have, I call it like submission friction. Like I talk about all these different points in the writing process, and how- Every point, there's like, there's friction to move the work from one kind of thing to another kind of thing.So there, like when you go from draft to like submitted article, y- it's becoming something different, and your job and your relationship to the, that piece of writing is different between when you've drafted it and when you've submitted it to a journal. Um, there's lots of other transition points, but I was coaching somebody yesterday who was like, “Yeah, I got all this really bad feedback,” like really badly worded feedback, right?Like, it wasn't just critical, it was also delivered poorly because peer review in academia is blind, so you don't know who read it, and so people say all kinds of things [00:17:00] without you, you know, without fear that you're g- they're gonna see you at a conference. So you know, supposedly they don't know who you are, you don't know who they are.And it can be like really horrible, and this, this client, she was like, “I just can't... I have trouble, I'm having trouble submitting anything from that study because that person's words are in my head.” Oh. So like, so we also have like for the great effort of holding the writing time and doing, we might get these terrible things that like stop us in our tracks, and then we have to like coach our own minds through like, okay, why is it true that submitting again won't necessarily have those same results, you know, and whatever else you need to, you know...Like I work with my clients on different things they can think to get over that friction of submitting and that fear. But, but yeah, like sometimes there's a payoff, and sometimes the payoff is like, “Congratulations, we're g- people are really mean.”Jennie: [00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah,Cathy: yeah. Yeah,Jennie: so how much time do you spend in your program, would you say, on You know, so there's the tactics and the- Mm-hmmsetting up the systems- Yeah ... versus mindset. Yeah. Like, what's the balance?Cathy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my program is set up so that you do the program in 12 weeks, and guess how long it takes to do the program every week? One to two hours. And you do it once or twice a week. So, like, if you take the program, it forces you to hold, like, an hour to do the material and an hour for a live call.So the live call is where we're really getting into the coaching stuff. Like, I, you know, there's only so much coaching you can do on, like, a prerecorded lesson, right? But we do talk about mindset, um, throughout the whole thing. But on the coaching calls is really when we talk about mindset and, and get to figure out, like, [00:19:00] is the problem that you're having actually a strategy problem, or are you having a mindset problem?Is it, like, something that's happening, or is it the way you're thinking about what's happening? So I would say it's, like, a half and half, um, kind of breakdown between strategies and, um, techniques and, like, here's processes, and let's get your mind right.Jennie: Well, I mean, that's, to me, a, a giant revelation. I, I believe that mindset is at least 50% as well.Yeah, yeah. And I think most writers don't have any idea that, how important mindset is. And the program you and I are in together, the business mastermind that we're in together, is hugely mindset focused, and it- Yeah ... it's hard to show up with your mindset stuff. It's embarrassing. Mm. Mm. And, you know, it's hard to get coaching on it, at least for me anyway, because it's, oftentimes it's like, “You're saying the same thing in a different way.[00:20:00] Like, that's just the same story, different words,” you know? You really have to confront the narratives that you have in your head, and where they came from, and what they're serving, and that's work too, right? Yeah,Cathy: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,Jennie: absolutely. And I mean, that's, to me, the thing that I've, I've really learned, and your program honors that idea by half the time that people are spending is the, the mindset.Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and then we also... Like, the program is designed so that you take it once, and then you can keep taking additional rounds of the program. The content of the program doesn't change, but you continue to have these mi- these, these coaching calls, right? Where we talk about, there's kind of two part- like, two themes of the coaching calls.Like, one theme is like, oh, now I- my whole calendar is really mission aligned, and I'm holding my writing time and whatever. And then what is the series of problems that happens after that, [00:21:00] right? Like, what's the next level? Like, now that we've solved these things, ‘cause there's never no, there's never no problems.Like, like, the next set of problems, uh, presents itself. Um, so we coach on those things. But also, like, I've just been, especially this, in this next group, I've told people, like, I'm like, “We're gonna do more mindset than ever.” Like, we're just gonna really coach your brains on, um, you know, on perfectionism, on procrastination, on transition friction, on zombie projects, on like, um-Jennie: What's a zombie project?Cathy: Ooh, those are those things that are like, they're not going anywhere. They're dead, but you're holding onto them in your mind, like someday I'm gonna get back to that. And it is not healthy to do that. So we, I, when I talk about, like, um, how to manage multiple projects at once, like so think multiple articles that you're writing at once, people [00:22:00] have...Like, academics have, I don't know, like 10, 20 articles that they have, like that they're holding in their mind as like these are possible articles that I could work on or these are projects that... I call them projects in play, right? Well, a lot of times like five of those are like, “Oh, this is a project I started.There might be words on the page, but it stalled out.” We needed to do a reanalysis, and we didn't n- and, and it was gonna be a lot of work to go back and do that, so it's just kind of like alive but dead, right? Like a zombie. Yeah. So I tell people, and again, they fight me on this, like I'm like, “You need to kill them.”Like you need... Zombie projects aren't for resuscitating. They are for blessing and releasing. They are for like this is done. This is not going to... Because they're in the way of all of the other living projects. So I talk about the projects as like we have a top three that are kind of, that we're maybe rotating between or [00:23:00] that like once we, we, we submit something from the top three we can like promote something else, and then everybody else is sleeping.You know? Just tell them they need to take a nap. And then the zombie projects we're just, we kill them. You can, if you must, have a folder on your computer and put them there, but you need to get them out of like your working mind. They shouldn't be in your pipeline. They should be like they... Because we can only hold so many things, and we can only manage so many projects at once, so we have to create systems and processes to make it feel like we're only working on one thing at a timeJennie: Well, I think this idea, which I adore now that I know what it is-um, applies to book writers as well. Everybody has more than one book idea, and they have the book idea that they wanna write after the book that they're working on, or they started three at a time or s- you know, oftentimes there's a thing that happens, I think it happens about two-thirds of the way through a [00:24:00] book- Hmmwhere suddenly you have a great idea for another book that is shinier and prettier and brighter and better- Yes ... than the one you're working on.Outro: Yep.Jennie: And so this idea, I think, really applies to book writers, and most of us who are writing and sharing anything are also writing other content like- Yes. YesSubstack and, um, or a newsletter or a podcast or whatever th- whatever the content that we're working on is. So do you think that this idea of the zombie project- Mm-hmm ... or folder can apply there as well?Cathy: For sure, because here's the thing, right? The shiny object syndrome is really real be- and it, and it relates actually to the submission friction that I was talking about.Like, I did a call about that just yesterday. Like, it relates because- Before your project is done, right, before it's submitted, before it's turned in, whatever, [00:25:00] it has the potential to be the very most amazing, best book that has ever been written by anyone. And as long as I don't submit it, it is holding that potential.Jennie: Yes. Okay.Cathy: And so once the, so the more, but the more done the book gets, the less po- Like, almost like the less that po- the, the more that potential is kind of decreasing because it, it's not that it's not great, maybe it is that book, but like the potential of what it could become when it actually has become something is less, right, than the new shiny idea because the new shiny idea then has like all of this potential.So, so I think that's the, the newness of something like is, i- is very attractive, and it has so much to do with like our brains trying to avoid the hard work of the finishing and trying to... Like, [00:26:00] w- when something is new, you don't know what the writing problems are yet. Yeah. But what, what's existing, you have a lot of problems to solve.There's a ton of decisions to make.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: And, um, and, and that, that feels hard and heavy.Jennie: So for our listeners who are finishing up their blueprints, they're coming across one of those friction points you talked about, where you're going from planning your book, thinking about it, solving some problems, to you're going back to writing ‘cause the- Yeahblueprint is a kind of a pause. Not kind of, it's a pause, and now you're going back to the writing, and that s- transition is something a lot of writers don't acknowledge- that it's a different thing. So that idea- Right ... you were talking about of, um, when your academic writers are shifting from, you know, one thing to another.They have a lot more shifts in a lot [00:27:00] more compressed period of time. But writers absolutely go through this, and then when they, when they call it done and get it to beta readers, and then they get it back and get it to, you know, going to pitch, those are all transition points. So a lot of our listeners are at one of those right now.Yeah. What is, what is the mindset work to, that you guide people for shifting from one, um, process to another?Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So your job changes. Like, that's the, that, that's the, you know ... Like, the job of, like, when you're doing the blueprint, right? It's a planning, it's a pausing, it's a thinking, it's aRight? The same thing we do, like, I teach a writing planning process, and that process is one kind of job, right? The job of, like, making decisions- And executing on those decisions. So the making decisions is another job, and the [00:28:00] executing on the decisions is another job. So just realizing, like, what is my job in this moment, that is a really powerful thing to think about and think like, “No, in the scope of this whole project, my job right now is to make decisions that then I can execute on.”Jennie: Yes.Cathy: And also... Yes. And not, and remember then, like, you execute on the decisions, and you might have to go back and make new decisions and execute differently. Like, that's what composition, that's what composing is, right? But you, you know, keep the job that you're, for the stage that you're at, and stop trying to solve the problems of another stage in the process.Jennie: So bleeding into other jobs sounds like it's a energy suck. So for, uh, a, somebody finishing the blueprint, it might be, “Well, now I'm gonna start researching agents and conferences I can go to to pitch at.” And it's like, “No, you gotta write the book,” right? Yes. Is that-Outro: Exactly, [00:29:00] exactly ...Jennie: is that the kind of thing- Yesyeah.Cathy: Yeah, and so, like, a- and it's also, I talk a- I talk in the program about, like, you're solving the wrong problem at the wrong level, right? Like, that's an in- perfect example of I'm solving the wrong problem. Like, I don't, I don't need to be, like, thinking about pitching agents. I need to be figuring out what my book idea is.Like, you know what I mean? And so for, like, in, in, in our, in my program, there's, you know, let's say I think that what I have is a writing time problem, but if I don't have writing project management, like if I don't know how to plan a paper and I don't know what the stages it needs to go through are, and I don't know how to manage it in relation to other papers that I have, I can have two hours of writing, and I will sit there and not know what to do with it.Jennie: Yes.Cathy: So, like, there has to be, you know, you ha- so solving, you have to solve the right problem. You know? Like I, okay, I have a backlog of papers. I think it's ‘cause I don't have enough time. Like, you probably don't have enough time, but that's not the [00:30:00] only problem, you know? And that might not be the most pertinent problem to solve first.Jennie: Right. I love this. I love this for our people finishing Blueprint. Um, and w- I'm curious just to sort of wrap up our conversation, why do you think... ‘Cause something that's remarkable about the program that you run, which is again at scholarsvoice.com-Cathy: It's actually .org, but yeahJennie: Oh, dang.Outro: Dot org.Jennie: I said it wrong. Don't worry about it. It's fine. Scholarsvoice.org. We'll put it down in the show notes. It'll go in the show notes. Yeah. Um, well, the remarkable thing is that people love your program. Like, once they find it, they don't leave. Yeah. They, they stay for a long time. Years. Yeah. Years and years and years.Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you think that is?Cathy: Because we're never done. We're never done as writers.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: Right? Like, we're always developing, and we're always [00:31:00] changing, and we're always responding to new situations. And I just think, like, I think it would be terrible to think, like, “I've learned how to write a novel or a book or an article, and now I'm done.Like, and now I just, like, rinse and repeat for 30 years.” Like, no, that's not how it works. First of all, it's just not how it works, and also, would you really want it to work like that? Don't you want it to get more interesting, different, better? Like, and so that's why people stay, ‘cause the, the, the curriculum is...I- it's called, like, a spiral curriculum, where you could just, like, keep doing it again and again. And as you are going through your career, you are changing, and your situation is changing, and actually the demands of your career are changing. And so you can just continue to do this work over and over again, and, and many people do it and then come back after they've had, like, a little career change, and they realize, “Ooh, now all of these things have [00:32:00] shifted, and I need to, like, go back and figure all of this out again.”And that's normal and natural and fine and actually amazing.Jennie: Um, so how can... If people are listening to this, and they're like, “Wait, I wanna get in on this academic writing-” Yeah ... thing, I... So it's only for tenured professors. It's not- So- ... for people who want to be that, right? No.Cathy: Yeah, so we... It is really for academics.It's really geared towards people who are in academic careers, tenured or hoping, you know, tenure-track professors or whatever they call it in the country that you live in, ‘cause it's called different things. Um, it- we have a lot of people who are mid-career. Like, so it's not just for early career. Um, but we, we have people at all different career stages, including post-docs, including full-time researchers, and so...And even sometimes people from industry, like, or nonprofit who are doing research work and need to put out publications [00:33:00] into academic journals. So yeah, and you can go to scholarsvoice.org, and at the top navigation it says, “Publish your backlog,” and that is my Navigate program, which is really focused on helping you publish that backlog of papers and keep papers, like, flowing out into the world.Um, scholarsvoice.org/navigate is where you'll find all the information, and you can apply, and it's open until, open for applications until August 28th.Jennie: That is awesome. Well, if you're, if you're listening, um, now and that speaks to you, you can jump on that. If you're listening in the future, uh, there will be another opportunity, uh, to get into- YeahCathy's program. And if you're listening to the hashtag amwriting, uh, podcast and you're not an academic, and- You're finishing a blueprint or you're realizing after this conversation, “Gosh, I'm doing the wrong job at the wrong [00:34:00] time,” or, “I don't have a time problem, I have a mindset problem,” or any of these, these ideas that Cathy has shared with us.Put them into practice and, and I think that for writers listening to podcasts like this is part of the mindset work because- Yes ... you're listening to bigger conversations and bigger ideas, and you're getting something in your ear that counteracts that story you're telling your own self. So, um, I'm just grateful for you, Cathy, for sharing those stories and thoughts with us today, and for doing this amazing work that you're doing out in the world.So thank you for joining us.Cathy: Thank you for having me on the podcast.Jennie: And for our listeners, thanks for being here. Now let's get back to work and finish what matters most.Outro: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, [00:35:00] aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Artificial harmony is what happens when teams work alongside each other day in and day out, but never actually talk about what needs to be said. Kiera and Dana walk listeners through why getting to the root of problems in a practice is so critical — from not just a teamwork point of view, but for the business itself — as well as where to start to turn your practice into a place where honesty and trust happens regularly. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today's a lucky day. I have the one and only Dana on the podcast with me. I love this. Dana, you happen to fit right in my podcasting schedule at the perfect time. So I'm getting more Dana time. You guys are getting more Dana time. Dana, how are you? Welcome to the podcast.   Dana (00:16) excited to be here. I know it's rare. Like it's rare anymore that I get a ton of podcasting time, but especially podcasting time   Kiera (00:22) Okay.   Dana (00:23) with you. So I was super excited when Marisa confirmed it on my schedule. So   Kiera (00:27) I was   too. I was because Marisa has them in like I like to start early and I like to just run. And so Dana tends to have a break between coaching calls that I'm able to like slip a podcast in. So always excited and I agree. Like Dana, we've had a we've had some good ones. And I wanted to get you on the podcast today because I feel like you've been doing some awesome things with teams. I feel like there's been this new wave of Dana going into offices because I think as a consultant, our job is to reinvent ourselves over and over and over.   Like who Dana was when she first started versus who Dana is today. Like that is a complete evolution. Who Kiera was, who offices are, like there's an evolution of that. And I think that this is the even the new evolution of team. I think the teams are shifting. I think that there's a new emergence from like even when I started the company to when you started to when we are here today. and I think you've just been doing some awesome things. So let's dive into like what are some of the fun things that we're doing for teams? What are some of the ways that you've been able to turn teams around and get to maybe like, cause I feel like a lot of people struggle with   artificial harmony is probably the best way to say it where teams are working day in and day out where they're not saying what needs to be said. And then I feel like Dana, when you and I get on calls or we show up in offices, instantly like the floodgates are open and we just get a dumping. And it's like, okay, well, clearly there's a lot you want to say, but how do we get that to be the norm in the practice rather than the abnormal? So Dana, take it away. Like, let's talk about some of the offices you've been working with, how you've been able to like   Crack that nut and get more to the root cause of problems and get teams to really gel and jive with each other better than I think we ever have.   Dana (01:55) Yeah, this is a really exciting topic because I think it comes up in like a variable of different ways in like, okay, people want to have stronger leadership, right? They want more accountability for their team. They want a cohesive team or a culture that people love and are super excited to show up to every day. And it's funny because we might not think that this kind of all ties in together, but I've been talking so much to teams about just.   Saying the things that need to be said, communicating with each other, solving like root problems versus just   like you said, that artificial harmony.   Kiera (02:34) Yeah.   Dana (02:35) and I was just talking to an office actually this morning and and they're kind of creating their quarterly meeting agenda. And they're like, well, what do we do? And you know, we feel like the same people participate and the same issues kind of get brought up. And like we never kind of get beyond like that surface level. And so we kind of talked about how just having open, honest conversation about that and really building an and   Increasing team, I feel like it all kind of very like boils down to like team trust and like communicating and saying all the things that need to be said. And I said, could you have a great like if you don't address this, could you have a decent meeting, right? Where you come up with good goals, you come up with good action items, you walk away feeling pretty good. Yeah. But when you don't have that trust and vulnerability, and when you don't open and have that communication, are your meetings great?   Probably not. Do we solve the things that need to be solved? Probably not. Do we solve them forever, right? And we're all on the same page and we're super committed and then we're able to hold each other accountable? Probably not. And so I've been working a lot with a ton of teams, with leadership teams, even with owners on. We have to be able to say the things that need to be said to be able to truly.   Be committed together and truly set goals that are going to move your practice, move your team in the right direction the most.   Kiera (04:04) Mm-hmm. And Dana, I love that you brought that up because I think, gosh, I'm like gonna like date myself and go back to like when Tiff and I first met. And I grew up in a family where artificial harmony was like status quo. Like I feel like there's a a pendulum and you either are like artificial harmony or you're like kind of like mean spirited and like a little cutthroat. Like kind of is the that pendulum swing.   And I grew up very much artificial harmony, right? Like we had like my siblings, we'd all run to my mom rather than like having a knockout drag out with each other. And as we've evolved when I met Tiff, she was very much an anti like no cure. We're just like gonna go to the root cause of this, we're gonna hash it out. And I it was very foreign and uncomfortable for me. But getting a taste of it, I was like, wow, that was so much more efficient. And that was so much easier. And I feel like I can know what's going on with Tiffanie now.   I feel like I'm not sitting here, and especially with us being in a virtual team, it was my first time running a virtual team. And I was like, whoa, like I really need to know what's going on rather than what I think. Like, there's no vibe check. Like, Dana, you and I don't get a vibe check with each other often. It's like, hello, maybe there's a little like snide slack comment that goes through, and you're like, okay, like let's check it. But that's all you get. You don't really get that vibe check. And once I feel like you you cross the bridge into trust and vulnerability, saying what needs to be said.   You can't go back. Like you are so, I don't think annoy's the right word, but you're just like, wow, there's like such a more efficient way to do this. Even my sisters, I remember a couple summers ago, my little sister, she was like still sitting in artificial harmony. And like went for it. I was like, all right, let's talk about it. I understand I can have a little bit more direct approach. I think I can maybe soften. And my little sister was like, no, like this is good. Like us having a hash, like, what's your perspective? What's my perspective? Like, let's come to that root cause.   You   and I are gonna be so much more bonded together. We'll have so much more trust with each other. I'm gonna know that what you tell me is really truth, rather than sitting here guessing, wondering, wishing, hoping like my mom doesn't need to come in and intervene between us. Like neither of us want that. And I think you can relate that to offices where no one wants the office manager or the doctor to come and intervene. Like Dana and I should be able to talk it out. We don't need Tiffanie to come in and mediate. Sometimes you do, but if you can get that as the status quo of a practice, it is fascinating to see meetings start actually become very enjoyable. People aren't bored in these meetings anymore.   actually say what needs to be said. We like you said, Dana, I feel like it's like it's the good to great. It's the like mediocre to excellent. And I think we've even watched it evolve in our consulting team. Like I was like, all right, we had a moment where I watched our consultants not give feedback that I I thought that they would have given. And it was such an amazing eye opening for me of like, all right, consultant team, like let's talk like how do we get more trust and vulnerability? How do I as a leader make it to where this feels like a safe space for you to say what needs to be said and   We worked on it this quarter and it's actually really fun to see it in our company evolve and in teams have it evolve. So, Dana, how do you like virtually and in person get teams to feel safe to start to change? Because to say what needs to be said, to healthy debate it out, to trust one another that you're not gonna go talk about me to my neighbor. And if I say something that's very off topic, like I always pull the example in an office, I'm like, all right, everybody, we're working Saturdays, and it's like crickets. And I'm like, okay, well, clearly we don't have trust.   'Cause I know none of you want to be working Saturdays. Like, let's have this and this is a good example. But I'm just curious, like, how do you even like broach this? How do you even one, I guess, like let's back it up. How do you know if your team has true trust and vulnerability? And then two, how do you start to bring more of that into the table?   Dana (07:32) Yeah, I think it is just I usually take a gauge of okay.   I'll notice in teams, right? That we'll come up with action plans or that we'll come up and it's like we we lack sort of follow-through, right? And then there's after conversations, or there's like, well, I didn't really do this because I had all these questions, or I didn't. So like that is kind of a sign to me in my team meetings and in my meetings with teams that, like, okay, we're not really saying the things that need to be said, or we're not because we aren't moving forward, right? We aren't implementing, we aren't getting to the point where, yeah, like we had this really great meeting, we came up with these actions.   Items, we're super excited. We went and tackled them, right? So   Kiera (08:12) Mm-hmm.   Dana (08:13) when I have a team that kind of struggles to do those things, or they're constantly like, well, we started and it fell off, or we did like to me, that is a sign of we aren't getting to the bottom of things, we aren't getting people committed, we aren't getting people bought in, so things aren't being said. So just like you said, that crickets where like that work on Saturday.   kind of conversation, then I just start to ask questions. And I think where it gets to kind of be an eye-opening point is so many times people   feel like I had in an in a virtual team meeting, a team member's like, well, you know, I don't say the ideas I have or I don't say the issues because I don't feel like as a team member I have like the authority to, right? So then it's just looking. So then I looked at the doctor and I said, okay, do you want to know the things that are frustrating your team? Do you want to know the things that are stressing them out? Do you want to know where they feel like things are?   in inefficient. And of course the answer was absolutely yes. Like I don't   Kiera (09:10) Uh-huh.   Dana (09:10) want my team members beating their heads against the wall on the same things if we can come to a team meeting and we can solve it together.   And then on the flip side, I've had the conversations of when it comes to like leadership holding back or owners holding back on the things that they want to say. It's truly asking the team like, do you want to know what the expectations of you are? Do you want to know if you're doing something that frustrates an owner or stresses them out? Or do you want to know that you are aligned? And every time, right, everybody is like, yes, yes, I do.   Kiera (09:41) Yeah.   Dana (09:42) Then it is giving them the tools, right, to   Kiera (09:44) Mm-hmm.   Dana (09:45) be able to create that with themselves.   And for them to really realize that it comes from there is a lack of trust or a lack of vulnerability on one side, both sides. And like, is it between leaders and teams? Is it between team members and team members? Is   Kiera (10:02) And you   Dana (10:02) it and it can always be strengthened and it can always be improved? But I think just getting to like, hey, this is an issue and let's talk about it.   Kiera (10:12) Absolutely. And I think Dana, you you brought up a lot of highlights of like they're not following through on their accountability. People are like, I want an accountable team. And if you go to like Patrick Lenciani's Five Dysfunctions of a Team, which is where a lot of this is pulled from, like bottom layer of that triangle is trust and vulnerability. Then it's healthy debate, then it's commitment, then it is peer-to-peer accountability, and then it's winning and hitting results. So when I think about that, it's like if people are not being committed, it's because they didn't hash it. So they're like,   I don't want to do that. And what happens is you get the side hallway conversations of like, Dana, I'm not doing that. Are you doing that? Like, there's absolutely no way. We're trying to cut those side hallway conversations. And that's where we tell teams. I tell all teams, I'm like, here's a safe space. Like, you guys get to say whatever you want to say. I don't care what it is. It's always with respect, it's with professionalism, and it's in the best interest of the practice. Not Dana's best interest, not Kiera's best interest. We have different perspectives. Let's bring them to the table. But all of us are here to make Dental A Team or   Whatever your practice's name is, it we're here to make it better. So as long as like those are ground rules. But I tell everyone like you have an open voice, you have an open space. And if you choose not to say it today, well, bummer, you committed to this. So you're gonna commit, you're gonna follow through because that's who we all are and that's how this team operates. But next meeting, when you're like, Dana, I don't wanna do this, we talk about it. And also as coworkers, if we hear someone saying I don't want to do that, you say like, hey, dang it, like I hear you. Next time bring it up because like we all committed.   That's how you're going to fix. And like people have to get on the same page and it gets awkward. But I'm like, if you can get 1% better every meeting, team members get very bought in. Team members then start to realize like, like I tell people, if you're not having a little bit of spicy fireworks in your meetings, you don't have enough trust and vulnerability. There should be some spice. There should be some fireworks. It's not like yelling, it's not like Dana and I are going at it. It's a Dana, like, let's talk Saturdays, right?   Dana's   like, all right, cool. So we want to work Saturdays. I don't want to work Mondays and Tuesdays. Like, let's talk about why we want to work Saturdays, why we don't want to work Saturdays, what's really like ultimately in the best interest of the business. I'm like, cool. Could Dana and I get to a point where if Saturdays really are a great practice, like practice plan, we don't necessarily have to work it. Like, that doesn't mean Dana and I have to go work it. Like, could we go find hygienists that want to work Saturdays? Like, yes. So instead of having teams shut it down, it's a let's.   Let's innovate, let's create, let's figure out what's in the best interest of the business. But all of us need to have a voice and then all of us commit. And then that's where I love the peer-to-peer accountability. Instead of it's leadership accountability, it's peer-to-peer. So if Dana's like hearing me talk, smacking those sterilization, she's supposed to call me out. And I think teams building up to this, teams realizing that this is normal. What's fascinating, I will say this for myself, it actually improved my marriage, it improved my family relationships, it improved so many things because I realize.   that that's healthy. Like that's actually a healthy culture. That's that is a harmonious whole culture, even though you're like, whoa, that doesn't feel like it, versus the ones that are sitting there silently. And when Jason and I started getting more into this, I'm like, tell me. Like I remember sitting there and I was like, I love having a good spice even with Jason. I love to be like, tell me what you think. What do I think? Like let's get to that. And I recognize some people like myself can be a bit more bold. and so I think the bold personalities need to recognize that some of the quieter personalities   give them a space to also speak up and quieter personalities, we need your voice. We need your perspective. Like it it's not you, it's just your perspective. So we can all get on the same page. But it's it's fascinating to watch the churn. And what I see is team members are going to rise up and some are going to rise out. They're going to be like, this isn't for me. I want to go back to the place of artificial harmony. But leaders when they start to see this is how this is how teams solve their own problems. This is how meetings become effective. This is how your business starts to actually like move, make traction.   evolve. Like you start to actually have functioning and and teams that don't turn over because they actually say what needs to be said and they're not sitting in that artificial harmony. Dana, what are your thoughts on that?   Dana (14:05) Yeah, I I agree with you and I love there are gonna be team members that can come in and they can really take this on and they can embrace it. And then there's gonna be team members who use it like they put their just their big toe in it. And I just did this recently in in person with an office and it was an office where they like really wanted it. They were like, Yes, we know that we need it, we need to say the things. but it was really scary for them because they   cared about each other and so they never wanted to, you know, that fear of like, well, are they gonna hear my intention? Are they going to understand that like I'm saying it because it's for the good, right?   Kiera (14:39) Mm-hmm.   Dana (14:40) So what we did, and this was really cool and really helpful, and they've had so many of these conversations since I was in there, and I can't tell you how proud of them I am. We basically came up with a code word, and the code word is I'm saying something that is uncomfortable for me to say because I anticipate that maybe it's going to feel negative, maybe it's going to   feel abrasive, right? But my intention is if I say this thing, then we can solve it together and we can move on, right? Those so like that is the   framing behind this code   Kiera (15:16) Yeah, uh-huh.   Dana (15:16) word, right? And for them, they picked something that makes them laugh. So they just it's a flat tire conversation, right?   Kiera (15:21) Yeah.   Dana (15:22) And so they always say like, hey, flat tire, and then say the thing, right? And that's just their way   Kiera (15:27) Mm.   Dana (15:28) of really just making them comfortable with this whole philosophy of we're going to say the things that need to be said. We're going to do it kindly and professionally. But it was kind of like their little lean in tool that   Kiera (15:38) I love it.   Dana (15:39) they use. Now I said we can't ever use flat tire of a like, hey, I was supposed to do   This, but flat tire, I didn't, right? We can't use it to get out of accountability for things, but it really is just to set the tone of I'm gonna say a thing that I'm scared to say that's hard to say, but I hope if I say it, we can grow together, right?   Kiera (15:57) I love that.   Dana (15:58) And so I love that as a tool, and I find myself kind of using it in a few offices since then, and they can pick their own word, it doesn't have to be flat tire, but you're right, this is hard for some team members to really get on board with because I do think that.   When they genuinely like each other as humans, this can be uncomfortable at first. So even using a tool like that, hey, we're not gonna not have the conversations or not say   Kiera (16:22) Uh-huh.   Dana (16:22) the thing, but maybe I need a crutch to get there.   Kiera (16:25) Yes.   Well, and Dana, I love that because I think I think most teams actually love each other and most teams want to work together. Most teams respect each other. And I think if we can even reframe that to me having the conversation with you, like let's go to the book Raving Fans. They said the worst thing that can happen to a business is for people to leave and not tell you. And you might feel like someone telling you and giving you feedback, like that's actually the best thing that can happen to a business because that means they believe in you that you're willing to change.   And so I think if we even reframe of the way I really love my team, the way I really support my coworkers, the way I really show them that I trust them is by having these types of conversations. Me not saying anything actually like is a disservice. None of us, like I ask every team, I'm like, how many of you enjoy like walking on eggshells around team members? Like we all know what that feels like. We all know when someone's like upset with us, but we don't know how to have that conversation. We're like, what did I do to this person? Versus someone where it's like,   Dana, like I feel like things are a little off. Like flat tire. Like, can we have a conversation about this so we can solve it together? That shows so much more camaraderie. That shows so much more professionalism. That shows so much more, like to me, that's a maturity of a team. There's like, I feel like it's like layers, right? Baby teams,   Dana (17:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Kiera (17:37) toddler teams, middle school teams, high school teams, college teams. Then you get into professional services like teams. Like you just think about like,   Even   think about the type of communication all those different layers are going to have with each other. And maybe that's also a way for us to graduate into those different layers of communication with each other. But I will tell you, as someone, and I think that that's something I'm very proud of, is I am a very like people pleaser. I love people like me. I'm very much sit on that artificial harmony. And sometimes, like even with Britt, like my hair, I'll like push it up and I'm like, all right, Britt, this is a moment where I'm really stressed. Like I need to say something to you. And I'm like,   Every ounce of me wants to say it, but I don't want it to ever land wrong. So just know, like right now, like this is me like pep talking myself to go into this combo. And I appreciate that Britt will giggle because she knows like it's so hard for me, but I just need to say what needs to be said. And I think for teams, like this is a muscle and a skill that's really going to take you from where you are to where you ultimately want to go. Like this is that bridge. And you can either sit on one side of the river or you can dip your toe in, you can step on the bridge, you can start having the conversations.   And what's wild is your team culture will start to shift and evolve in ways you've never imagined and you'll never look back. Like it's not like you might have some knockout, drag outs, but you're like, you what, I'd rather know than like not know. And you start to get into this where it's like, cool, let's have a conversation. Like you said, tell us about the flat tire office. How long has it been? What's kind of been their experience, highs and lows, and where are they today?   Dana (19:07) Yeah, yeah. So this it we did this more recently in an in-person. It was probably like three months ago. And   Kiera (19:14) Mm-hmm.   Dana (19:15) they've had, I think, teammate to teammate conversations. They've had leadership to team member conversations, and they've had team member two leadership conversations since then. And I can tell you, like they are more committed, they are tracking things, they are, you know, they've got a board where things are like red and green. We did it for just like a visual for them. There is more green.   On the board since then than I've ever seen, because they truly, truly are using morning huddles to like work through things and just communicating at a level that I'm so proud because I they really, really struggled with this. And I wasn't they were committed, right? But I had seen them fall off in commitment before because they did struggle with this. And so watching them really be able to   Take it on, use that. And two, the last call that I had with them, just feedback in like, hey, I had a flat tire conversation and I didn't even have to take say flat tire, right? Like I didn't   Kiera (20:15) Yeah.   Dana (20:15) even have to use that crutch. I'm getting so comfortable with having conversations that I didn't even have to use our funny word. And you know, they did laugh because it was like after the fact we were like, flat tire, right? but   Kiera (20:27) Ha ha ha   Dana (20:28) the fact that like they could just go in and say it in a meeting, right? Say it   Kiera (20:32) Mm-hmm.   Dana (20:32) in a not even in a one-on-one space, like this happened in a team.   meeting where they were talking about things, it honestly and truly has made such a difference in their ability to work together and honestly and truly commit and then hit their goals, right? And   Kiera (20:49) Yeah, uh-huh.   Dana (20:50) actually hit their action items. And it's been really fun to see how proud of themselves they are too.   Kiera (20:56) That's incredible. And I hope I don't know if you guys heard. I heard. I was watching Dana's face and hearing you're like, they were committed. Like you even like the little like trying to like, they were committed. And to me, that's not committed. Versus on this latter half when you're like, they commit and they hit, there is like a stalwartness. There's a solid, there's a grounded of are we like committed? Like, like we're there, but we're not, versus like, we know we're gonna have the conversations, whatever we say we're going to actually achieve as a team. Do you know how much teams love to win and actually like   Be confident they're going to win, be confident that the goals we set are realistic, to challenge each other and to see a team like Dana, that was three months of a change in an evolution. And I think that's fun. And it now just becomes a standard, it becomes a baseline. You gave them the tools to get there. And I think having a consultant, see that, give your team the tools. I mean, Dana, kudos. I'm definitely gonna take that because I think having the like word of how do I go into this conversation and making it funny that they all agree to my husband, I have the word Arkansas, and that's like if I want him to tell me the truth.   And I feel like he's like kind of like, hmm, not I'm like Arkansas. And he's no, no, Arkansas. Like, this is really what I'm trying to say. And I'm like, okay, great. Like sometimes we all need to just have that where we can we can check in with each other. And I think kudos to you, Dana, for doing that. And to get a team to just rally and to hit great goals and to be committed. And what's wild is this team, like I guarantee you, they've got the base foundation, just like Patrick, Patrick Lanzioni says, it's the trust and vulnerability, the healthy debate, and you lock in and commit.   And if you will do the trust and vulnerability where you healthy debate, your team will actually commit and then they hold each other accountable. It's like, no, we committed to this. Like we're all in it to win it. And then you hit your results. And people want to do it the reverse order. They want to hit the results, but they don't want to talk about the trust. And like Dana said, like we can like, we can kind of hit results, but we're not like so grounded and solid that we know we're gonna do it. So Dana, huge kudos to you. I think mad kudos of you giving that space and giving them the space to trust. And I think for other offices, if you're struggling with that or your team's not quite there.   This is what we're really good at is peeling back those onion layers, helping to open up the conversations. Because yes, you come to us for wanting systems and you want case acceptance, you want morning huddle and you want to drive your production. But a lot of times the secret to that bridge is getting your team to actually communicate with each other, getting your team to trust each other, getting your team to be solely locked in and committed to what we actually say rather than like half-heartedly trying to do it because they want to please you. Let's get people who are actually like very committed and this is their practice that they stamp off on.   And they own. So reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Dana, I'm so freaking proud of you. Any last thoughts you've got before we wrap today?   Dana (23:28) No, I think just when you want this for your team, be willing to do it yourself. owners, dentists, right? And and just it is hard, right? It can be hard to say the things, but know that when we can say the things, the traction that we can have and the movement that we can have is unimaginable.   Kiera (23:47) Dana, that is like a solid mic drop. You're right. Like it starts with leaders first. You've got to be willing to do it. You can't be backbiting. You can't be gossiping behind the scenes. You can't be walking out of a meeting saying, I'm not doing that. You set that example. Dana, love podcasting with you. I adore you. I'm so proud of you. For all of you listening, commit. Like, let's let's get our teams to be functional. Let's get them to be rocking. Let's get them to be totally committed. And this is the first step. So try it or reach Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. As always, thanks for listening. And I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

All Home Care Matters and our host, Lance A. Slatton were honored to welcome Alder Allensworth as guest to the show to share the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Community.   About Alder Allensworth, Co-Founder of Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's:   Alder Allensworth, MM, RN, is a registered nurse and retired hospice counselor who supported families caring for loved ones with dementia at the end of life. Her professional background spans working with both children and older adults, including those living with Alzheimer's disease.   The inspiration for this project grew from Alder's personal experience witnessing her mother, who had Alzheimer's, connect meaningfully with her grandchildren—Alder's nieces and nephews. This powerful family experience, combined with her clinical work, deepened her commitment to helping families navigate dementia with compassion, creativity, and connection.   Alder is also an accomplished writer, having published several articles in professional journals and books. As a speaker and presenter in the field of disabilities, she has shared her insights on local, national, and international stages. Her advocacy and dedication to promoting quality of life for people with disabilities have been featured on CNN, as well as in international media and local news outlets.   About Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's:   The Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Program (MMAP) is a family-centered multimedia educational program created to help children, parents, caregivers, educators, and healthcare professionals better understand and navigate Alzheimer's disease together.   Designed especially for families in the "sandwich generation," MMAP provides practical guidance, age-appropriate education, and meaningful activities that help children stay connected with a loved one living with Alzheimer's—from diagnosis through the severe stage of the disease.   At the heart of MMAP is the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Awareness Program (MMAAP), a 5-video educational series that explains the different stages of Alzheimer's while also providing guidance for adults who are simultaneously raising children and caring for an aging loved one.   The program includes:   • A 5-video educational series covering the stages of Alzheimer's • Guidance for parents and caregivers helping children understand the disease • Simple, meaningful activities children can do with their loved one • A quick-reference guide and video transcripts • Accessible audio and visual resources for different learning needs • An online community component offering additional connection and support   One of the most important goals of MMAAP is helping children understand Alzheimer's in ways that are appropriate for their age—while showing them that even as the disease progresses, there are still opportunities to connect, interact, and create meaningful moments with the person they love.   The program is complemented by the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Disease Picture Book, a gentle, child-friendly introduction to Alzheimer's that follows a young girl as she learns to understand and remain connected with her grandmother throughout the progression of the disease.   The book also includes a QR code providing access to a free Story Song download. The lyrics of the song are the text of the book, creating an engaging and memorable learning experience for young children, early readers, and families.   MMAP can also serve as a valuable educational resource for Adult Day Centers and Memory Care Communities. The ready-to-use program gives organizations a structured way to educate and support families, proactively answer common questions, and provide families with resources they can return to throughout their caregiving journey—allowing staff to devote more time to care, engagement, and meaningful connection.   Ultimately, the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Program goes beyond explaining the disease.   It helps families understand what is happening, gives children a meaningful role in the caregiving journey, and provides families with tools to preserve relationships, create positive memories, and remain connected throughout Alzheimer's and other dementias.