Podcasts about MM

本週行情台、美科技股還是相對強勢，近期也傳出許多 AI 相關的投資、採購等等的協議，並且也有許多大型科技公司的財報助攻。 那除了財報季外，另一件重要的事就是聯準會又開會啦！本集邀請美國研究員 Ralice 來聊聊，聯準會 1 月 FOMC 說了什麼？鮑威爾有扛住川普的施壓嗎？美國資產現在怎麼看？

Story of the Week (DR):Trump's ICE tactics force CEOs to choose between staying silent and risking White House backlash MMCEOs of Target and Minnesota's Biggest Companies Call for ‘De-Escalation' After ShootingMinnesota workers pressure employers to take action against ICE operationsCEOs, long silent on Trump's immigration crackdown, seem to hit their breaking point over killing of Alex Pretti in MinnesotaTarget's incoming CEO tells staff violence in Minneapolis is 'incredibly painful' – without naming Trump or ICEJan 28: Target Unveils Largest Spring Beauty Assortment Ever — Making Trend-Driven, Expert-Backed Beauty More AccessibleTech's top CEOs mum after ICE killings, while leaders like Reid Hoffman, Yann LeCun speak outICE is going too far': Sam Altman, Jamie Dimon, and more CEOs on the unrest in MinnesotaReid Hoffman says business leaders are wrong to stay silent about the Trump administrationApple's Cook says he's 'heartbroken' by Minneapolis events and has spoken with TrumpCompanies reap $22bn from Trump's immigration crackdownMeta blocks links to ICE List across Facebook, Instagram, and ThreadsAs Big Tech CEOs speak up about violence in Minneapolis, 1 in 3 corporate leaders think ICE tensions are ‘not relevant to their business'How ICE Already Knows Who Minneapolis Protesters AreAgents use facial recognition, social media monitoring and other tech tools not only to identify undocumented immigrants but also to track protesters, current and former officials said.Freefloatanalytics data blast:Palantir Technologies: Continues to be a primary partner. In 2025, they were awarded a $30 million contract to build "ImmigrationOS," a platform designed to provide "near real-time visibility" on individuals for the purpose of streamlining apprehensions and tracking self-deportations. Gender Influence Gap -26%RELX: LexisNexis Risk Solutions: Provides ICE with investigative databases used to track, vet, and target individuals. Their current contract is valued at over $22 million. Gender Influence Gap -24%Thomson Reuters: Supplies ICE with access to massive databases, including over 20 billion license plate scans. This data allows agents to track vehicle movement history and identify where individuals may be living or working. Gender Influence Gap -28%Clearview AI: Recently signed a $3.75 million contract (September 2025) to provide facial recognition technology. While officially limited to certain types of investigations, procurement records suggest its use is expanding. Gender Influence Infinity% (no women on advisory board; Hal Lambert and Richard Schwartz as co-CEOs)King “Bumps”JPMorgan's Dimon sees 10.3% pay bump to $43MDisney CEO Bob Iger's Pay Increased 11.5% to $45.8 Million in 2025Goldman Sachs hikes CEO David Solomon's pay 21% to record $47 millionWells Fargo CEO Charlie Scharf Gets 28% Pay Boost to $40 MillionWhy Starbucks is letting Brian Niccol use the company plane for more personal travel“Following a security review of risks, the Starbucks board of directors made the decision to enhance security measures for Brian,” a company spokesperson said. “This included a decision by the board to require Brian to use private aircraft for all travel.”$96M in 2024; $31M in 2024, including temporary housing expenses in the amount of $371,536; and security expenses in the amount of $1,142,700; and $997,392 in expenses related to his use of Starbucks aircraft for commuting and personal usemedian employee: $17,279. CEO Pay ratio 1,794 to 1 (January 1st: 10:10am)Temporary housing expense ratio: 22:1The docu-bribe: At ‘Melania' Premiere, the President Sees ‘Glamour' and Others See GraftAmazon paid Melania Trump's production company $40 million for the movie and then paid another $35 million to promote it.Guests included:Jordan Belfort: The real-life "Wolf of Wall Street."Director Brett Ratner, accused of rape, sexual assault, sexual harrassment, and homophobic abuse by at least 9 women:Melania Trump documentary marks a post-#MeToo comeback for its directorBrett Ratner was all but exiled from Hollywood after facing sexual misconduct allegations. Trump's win gave him an opening to return.Tim Cook (Apple)Andy Jassy (Amazon)Lisa Su (AMD)Eric Yuan (Zoom)Lynn Martin (President of the NYSE)Larry Culp (GE)Sam Altman (OpenAISatya Nadella (Microsoft)Sundar Pichai (Google)Safra Catz (Oracle):David Brown (Victory Capital)David Ellison (Skydance/Paramount)Marc Benioff (Salesforce)Goodliest of the Week (MM/DR):DR: Diversity on Fortune 50 boards: white men haven't been a majority for 3 years in a rowWhereas about a decade ago, white men held two-thirds of the seats on the top 50 Fortune boards, in 2023, for the first time, they held fewer than 50%. In 2024, that number dropped to 48.4%, but this year it climbed back to 49.7%.Since white men make up about 31% of the U.S. population, they still have been very much overrepresented in all three years.DR: National Shutdown: General strike on January 30 aims to push ICE out of Minnesota. Stores closed, protests scheduled in all 50 statesMM: Delivery Robot Gets Stuck on Train Tracks, Gets Obliterated by LocomotiveMM: Judge greenlights Massachusetts offshore wind project halted by Trump administrationVineyard Wind, which joins Revolution Wind, Empire Wind, and Coastal Virginia Offshore Wind in restarted because lawsAssholiest of the Week (MM):WHICH ASSHOLE DO YOU BLAME: Trump's ICE tactics force CEOs to choose between staying silent and risking White House backlashTrump/ICEHis personal military got orders to be “ethical”, but to fuck up everyone - and recruited specifically targeting Call of Duty players and lonely, angry men who wish they could call their friends “retarded” again but it isn't politically correctPalantir and the ICE industrial complexAlex Karp went out of his way to insist to his disgusted employees that AI and Palantir “bolsters civil liberties”Meanwhile, Palantir employees signed a letter from tech employees pondering whether or not they are actively destroying our country and abetting oligarchsBut Palantir, while making some of the creepiest, most heinous software known to man (I mean, worse than CHINA! And we all HATE CHINA, RIGHT???), has $100m in contracts with ICEIn fact, there's a whole private infrastructure complex that's largely not politically agnostic that's made $22bn from ICE and immigration crackdowns - and it's only been a year! That's some awesome shareholder value illegally sending weeping mothers to countries they don't live in with no due process!CEOs (Target, looking at you) DRThey managed to find a pen and craft a strongly worded letter that asked, pretty please, for “de-escalation”, calling ICE out not by NAME of course, but as a “recent challenge” that created “widespread disruption” - and named the White House only as someone they are “communicating” with. Signed by 60 Minnesota CEOs, co-signed in spirit by the Business Roundtable (though not like, officially), they managed to write a whole 199 words about the execution of a VA nurse whose crime was filming the Gestapo in actionTarget's incoming CEO (obviously not the CURRENT CEO Brian Cornell, he's busy polishing his mahogany chair for board meetings where he will be Executive Chair, making as much as a CEO with none of the responsibilities) also addressed the unlawful and unwarranted arrests of Target employees in Minneapolis by thugs - oh, wait, no he didn't - he said, “The violence and loss of life in our community is incredibly painful.” - IT WAS YOUR EMPLOYEES IN THE CROSSHAIRS, SCHMUCK. Target employees are currently skipping work in Minnesota, but solid leadership.Boards of directorsOur analysis of the boards of the Minnesota 60 showed that nearly half of them sit on each other's boards. Basically, you have a massive groupcoward problem - about 25 of the CEOs sit on some other CEOs board or overlap in some way, and the lawyers that carefully crafted the letter absolutely had to have it run through every other board and company lawyer, a task made easier when half of you are on the board with each other. No need for authenticity when you have collective ass covering.Jeffrey EpsteinIf not for those files, there wouldn't NEED TO BE MURDERS so you look somewhere else!InvestorsIf not for “shareholder value”, we could pay attention to humanity and authentic real world values!WHICH ASSHOLE DO YOU BLAME: As You Sow leads criticism of SEC's updated restrictions on smaller shareholdersSmaller investors!For three decades, small investors have used precatory proposals either as a means to extract more data, a means to improve governance, or a means of advertising - many of the non profits use it as a fundraising tool as much as a means of changeMeanwhile, those proposals have almost entirely failed at the vote - though they HAVE succeeded in increasing our data over time (the long arc of disclosure)Then the zone gets flooded by the anti-woke shareholders looking to de-trans companies, and now we have a massive influx of performative proposalsNow that the insiders are in charge (vs. career bureaucrats), in a six month period, virtually all rights have been revoked with threats of paperwork for non complianceAs a final cherry, they are now trying to keep EXEMPT SOLICITATIONS off the filing docket unless you have $5m in stock, so you can't even file your intent to vote directionally unless you're super richJohn CheveddenThe gadflyfather - if not for being the winningest shareholder in history with a nearly obsessive focus on improving shareholder rights, the most boring of topics, the SEC would probably have ignored the whole thingBut the data shows the SEC is taking the time to blanket ignore everyone BUT Chevedden, responding to affirmatively say no to his proposalsJC, no one likes a repeat champion dynastyThe SECBrain Daly at the SEC is out there suggesting maybe NO ONE should vote proxies while SEC Chair Atkins tried to gaslight the entire investment community by claiming the “government shutdown” made it too hard for the poor ole SEC to do its job, so they just gave companies immunity from proposals in lieu of doing their jobsMeanwhile, Atkins has overseen a steep drop in enforcement of accounting irregularities and reporting while simultaneously green lighting crypto scams and Exxon's new “retail vote” capture plan (which gives management anywhere from 5-20% of the company vote depending on the company by auto voting retail that opts in)All with Trump family in the backdrop raking in 1.4bn in the first year of the presidency from crypto token bullshit, asset seizures and sales, and pure graft - none of which will obviously be investigated despite Trump's son actively on a public board of directorsBigger investors!THEY NEVER REALLY CARED ABOUT VOTING ANYWAY! 96% average support for directors, 0.2% of directors globally voted out annually, and of those that are voted out (~20 a year), MORE THAN HALF STAY ON THE BOARD either by bylaw (cumulative voting) or as zombies (Jay Hoag!)And still, NO ONE CARES!WHICH ASSHOLE DO YOU BLAME: Marc Andreessen says the real crisis isn't AI job losses — it's what would have happened without AIThe powerless AI makersSam Altman: Sam Altman Says AI Will Cause Massive Deflation, Making Money Worth Vastly More - that's pretty good if you're already a billionaire, yeah?Dario Amodei: Anthropic CEO Warns That the AI Tech He's Creating Could Ravage Human Civilization - uh, don't create itThe CEO of Microsoft Suddenly Sounds Extremely Nervous About AIAI anxiety is so widespread that veteran Microsoft researchers are having panic attacks because they're making themselves obsoleteThe VC Navel Gazing Manchild EconomyAndreessen's genius was investing in manchildren: Facebook, Roblox, AirBnBVCs actually are giving LESS MONEY to women than the INCREDIBLY LOW AMOUNT they already gave during the AI raceYOU - you should have been a plumber or a peasant or a construction workerHeadliniest of the WeekDR: Cracker Barrel Wants Its Staff to Eat One Thing on Work Trips: Cracker BarrelMM: The company Americans say is the best place to work in 2026 isn't who you thinkCrew Carwash - washing cars is better than tech bro manbaby festsMM: The Worst People Alive Are Obsessed With Meta's Video Recording GlassesWho Won the Week?DR: Resistance in Minnesota and Maine (I'm attempting to be optimistic here, give me a break)MM: 33% of corporate leaders: As Big Tech CEOs speak up about violence in Minneapolis, 1 in 3 corporate leaders think ICE tensions are ‘not relevant to their business'PredictionsDR: January 1st will officially be recognized by the Business Roundtable as "Equality Day"—celebrating the grueling minutes it takes a CEO to earn more than their average worker for the year. Engraved badges with the exact time (10:10 for SBUX) will be created to honor the achievement.Ok, maybe that's silly, my real one is that Target announces its "De-Escalation" Collection: a "Minneapolis-Inspired" line of high-fashion neutral-tone hoodies, specifically marketed as "non-threatening" to ICE agents and heartbroken CEOsMM: Alex Karp, social justice warrior out for the little guy, mass fires his staff at Palantir and replaces it with an AI robot named “The Job Displacer”, does a road show claiming he's “freed” his employees using AI and now they can really have authentic jobs like “bagger at grocery store” and “guy who mixes paint”

Send us a textJune LeBlanc walked into the studio like she had a sword in one hand and your orgasm in the other.Her debut romantasy, The Lioness in Winter, is filthy in the way that sneaks up on you, like, “Oh cute, fantasy politics” and then suddenly you're reading a sex scene that makes your soul leave your body and your Kindle file self-destruct. We're talking betrayal, power, pole dancing, and men who choke respectfully.She choreographs her smut with her husband (yes, tested). And her characters? Can't be left alone without someone getting railed against a pillar of ancient stone while the kingdom burns in the background. MM on side quests...we love to see it.This episode is not safe. Not for work. Not for your group chat. Not for the part of your brain that used to care about plot. (It has lots of plot too)Grab your copy of The Lioness in Winter NOW!Follow June! Instagram:@juneleblancauthor, TikTok:@june.leblancauthorAnd when you hit that scene, you'll know the one, leave us a 5-star review and hydrate, you nasty little legend.

Kiera is joined by Dr. Paul Etchison to talk about changing the mindset of turnover = failure. This transition is part of the evolution of leadership. Both Kiera and Dr. Etchison share their own experiences in remaining true to core values, and keeping their definitions of success separate from whether a team member stuck around or not. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today is an extra special day. I have one of my faves and every time we podcast, people say, you two just seem like you love each other so much. And I really do. I've been to this man's practice. We've been friends in the industry for I don't even know how many years pre-COVID. That's a long time. And we've been on each other's podcasts a lot. He has an incredible podcast. He's an incredible human, incredible friend, incredible mentor. I got the one and only Paul Etchison on the podcast today. Welcome. How are you today, Paul?   Paul Etchison (00:28) Hey, I'm good. And I was just thinking about how you mentioned like the pre-COVID thing. You texted me a picture of when you came into my practice for two days. And it was like before COVID. And what was funny about it, and I don't know if it's funny or not, but like I looked at it and half of my team has turned over. They're all new people. So I know. ⁓   Kiera Dent (00:36) cute.   Mm-hmm.   It's real life, Paul. That's real life. It is funny and isn't because I go back and I used to   be embarrassed about that. So let's just kind of highlight on that. I used to actually be very embarrassed of like, my gosh, I don't have senior team members. And like, I hate the question. There was a hot minute. The Dental A Team felt like I was Johnny Depp in the middle of the ocean and my boat was full blown on fire. And I was like, I just hope another one shows up soon. Like I hope something comes. ⁓   And then I realized that's business ownership. Like that's real life. And yes, we built these great cultures, but you outgrow team members and team members outgrow you in life circumstances. And I'd rather be honest and real rather than perfect. And so the fact that like teams shift in a lot, mean, shoot, I used to have this vision board, Paul, you want to hear how ridiculous this was? And I took the team and I put them in the one year, the three year, the 10, and I just had this like same team follow with me. That lasted me for like six months. And I was like, rip this thing up.   Paul Etchison (01:31) Yes.   You   Kiera Dent (01:40) It's   gotten better, it's stabilized, but I think that that's real life. So thanks for talking about it.   Paul Etchison (01:44) It's hard,   yeah, I mean, we look at it and I think like the beginning of my practice career, I had very little turnover, but it was, I had to put so much into keeping that. Like it was such a hard thing to keep going. there was a lot of team members that I kept and I was able to make them happy and I was able to have it be a productive relationship and they were good at the practice. But sometimes I look back on it I'm like, man, it was just, that was a lot of energy I put into one person. I should have just moved on.   So that's how I practice now. It's different. There's a little bit more turnover and I think that's normal and that's part of business ownership. So we're okay.   Kiera Dent (02:16) What changed in your mindset for that? I have so many questions for you today. You guys, Paul and I, when we get on the podcast, it really is just like a free for all. And Paul has no clue. I have a full plan of what I'm asking you today, ⁓ but it's going to be a free for all rift of business ownership of teams. How did you change that perspective? Because I think so many people chalk that up to, I'm a failure of a boss if I've got turnover. Like I had a doctor the other day on a coaching call and she's like, Kiera,   Paul Etchison (02:19) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (02:42) What am I going to do for PR? Like I've got people turning over and how do I PR this? So anything is twofold. One, how did you get like mentally change that mindset? Cause I think it's a big mental game.   Paul Etchison (02:54) Yeah, for me, was everything that I've done in my career as far as like leadership growth and stuff, I think has always stemmed from some period of just struggle and burnout to some extent. It was like, I got to the point where I was taking everything that happened at the practice personally, every upset person at upset employees, they're bothered about something. They're they always, I mean, they're telling you how you should be doing things that not realizing that there's very complicated solutions. And sometimes there's not perfect solutions. A lot of times there's   perfect solutions. So I think what changed for me is I started looking at it from a point of my mental sanity saying I can't attribute my feelings on the happiness of all these team members anymore.   And all I need to do is just be very clear on what I want, be very consistent with the way that I treat them and hold them to that standard. But ultimately, I'm putting the ball in their court. It's up to them. And if they want to play ball, cool. If they don't, that's cool too. We can still be friends and you can go to some other office where it's more to your liking. But the biggest change for me was just realizing I can't be everything to everybody. And I did it for a long time and it was really exhausting. And I worked through that and I feel a lot better   it.   I think my team   is better for it.   Kiera Dent (04:08) Yeah, no, I don't disagree. And I'm glad you talked about that. It's been fun. think Paul, you felt like, I don't know, a big brother to me when we met and I came out to your practice and the fun things we've been able to do together and just the differences. ⁓ I think as we've grown up in the industry together, but I, I admired that because I always thought you had this amazing team. And I think to hear your version and then my version at the same time was very similar. I just realized like,   We got a killer team. Like this is an amazing company. And I think when I evolved to you're so lucky to work here, you're so like not in an egotistical way, but I think in a confidence way of like, this is a great place and we're going to attract people. I started realizing like I had confidence to make offers of what we actually wanted to pay versus what I felt like I had to chase to get people to be here. ⁓ we pivoted and I used to like chase all the time and try to be everything for everybody. And then I'm like,   Why am I doing this? Kiera, like you have built a company and a culture and a space that people love. And yes, there are changes and I will continue on forever evolve. I don't think that we're a perfectly set company, but I think that we're a pretty great, awesome place to work. And I think when I became centered, confident in me and what I was providing in the culture without having to be everything, I noticed I actually attracted a way different type of employee. I attracted somebody who wanted that same style. They, it,   It was like no more like games. think in like compensation and all this, it was more just centered. It was like, this is what we do and this is who we are and I want great people. And I also think it was very much attributed to like, got dialed in on core values. And I was like, I'm sticking to these. These are like rock solid. do not deviate from that. And if you don't fit. Fantastic. There is another opportunity, like go find your dream place and we're going to find our dream team member. And I say that in a very like confident, hopefully not egotistical. And I think you, sounds like you did a similar thing, but I.   I will say, I think you go through a space of realizing you're not a failure. It's an evolution. I think of, of leadership. It's almost like going from, I don't want to say immature. It's more like children and how's they grow. Like, I don't think a little baby is a failure for having that knowledge and that mindset. And I think some of us, are toddler baby owners. Like we've never done this before. We don't know. So we're going to have a different mindset. And then you just start to morph and evolve just like   Children grow up and they morph and evolve into these teenagers, into these college students, into like the prime of their life. To me, that also feels like a maturity of leadership as well to being confident with that.   Paul Etchison (06:42) Yeah,   I love that you point that out too, because we do, we hear a lot of complaints from our team members and then we start to, it starts to add up and then we start to really doubt.   Did we really create a great work environment? I mean, we just had an all day meeting maybe about two months ago, maybe six weeks ago,   like that. And one of the questions I asked, we use this thing called Slido. It's just in real time, you put on a PowerPoint slide and everybody can vote on their phone. There's a million like programs that do this. But I asked the whole team anonymously on a scale of one to 10, how fun is it to work at Nelson Ridge Family Dental? And I was terrified to throw that   Kiera Dent (07:03) Thank   Paul Etchison (07:19) there. I had no idea what people were going to say.   Kiera Dent (07:20) I don't blame you.   Paul Etchison (07:22) It was everybody was like eight, nine. There was like three or four sixes. Now I have 30 something team members.   So the   Kiera Dent (07:29) Yeah.   Paul Etchison (07:30) of it was very good, but it was, it was scary.   if you would have asked me what I thought it was going to   Kiera Dent (07:35) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (07:37) I did not think it was going to be that good because the squeaky wheel gets the grease. This, you know, that's what we hear. That's what we focus on. And it reminds me of this one coaching client I had, cause I coached dentists as well. had a coach coaching client named Isaac and he did very similar to you.   choir practice, he really got deep into the foundational core values of this is what the practice is. And   turned over his entire team and he said, I feel like such a failure. I feel like everybody's leaving. I feel like I'm just turning everybody off. Patients are coming in and asking where everybody is. I just don't think my leadership's good. And I told him, just hang through,   Hang, you'll find your people. And then six months later, he was like, I cannot tell you how much I love my team. And so I think the message of what you and I are saying, Kiera, is that no matter   Kiera Dent (08:12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Right.   Paul Etchison (08:22) what you want to do with what kind of vision you have for your practice, your team's out there. They are there. They are waiting for someone to take charge and just make it a big deal that that's the type of people we have at this practice.   Kiera Dent (08:26) Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (08:33) So if anyone's listening thinking like, have this issue at my office, get those core values out, talk to the team about it. Don't just like leave it on a document, bring it up with ⁓ a meeting and say, guys, this is what I truly want.   And sometimes apologize. I'm   I haven't been holding everyone to the highest regard or the highest standard, but I'm ready to do it and I need your help. So I love that you brought up those two points. Those are amazing things and I think everybody struggles with that.   Kiera Dent (08:55) Yeah.   I think, and I think that that's something that I feel you and I both strive to do is tell people feel like they're not alone. I think so many doctors feel like I'm the only one out there. I'm the only one who can't keep my team there. I'm the only one who has team turnover. And like, this is not the path that we were even on my radar to head, but I think it's obviously the most important path for people to hear. ⁓ I think Paul, it's the no judgment. It's the hang through it. It's, ⁓ having a guide, a mentor who's been there, done that, done that successfully. I mean, you and I can both like,   Gosh, you like grit through that and it's painful. But I also believe that while yes, painful, I feel it's an evolution of soul that you actually internally are craving. I don't believe that we rise to the call until we're ready. Like Kieran 2020, when I'm sitting on Johnny Depp like boat in the ocean, it was on fire. I was not ready for the call and the evolution that came in 2024 for me.   Like I just, wasn't ready for it, but come 2024. And I think it's a, it's a shedding, it's a shifting. It's a, like, I call it like the skin sloughing. Like it's like a snake, like you're leaving it behind. It's, I watched penguins when I was in Antarctica, like small flex there, Paul. Like the Antarctica trip was pretty rad. And we watched it. Right? We went to Antarctica. Penguins are so cute and they smell terrible. Like they're like little ketchup bottles that just squirt poop all day long. And it's disgusting.   Paul Etchison (10:11) I was just going to follow up on that. Whoa.   Kiera Dent (10:25) but they were molting when we were there and they just looked absolutely miserable. Like they sat there and they told us like, please don't touch the penguins. like, these look just, they're like, it's very painful for them. They're having to completely molt off all of these feathers. And I think that that's how I feel a lot of business owners are like, are you going through that molting process? But again, just like those penguins, just like us, I really do believe that when we're ready to be called to that higher level, one, you're not alone, two, you don't have to go through it alone.   Three, it's normal and it's part of growth, but like, there's also, you don't have to grow until you actually want to. Like, it sounds like Isaac was just ready. Like, I'm ready, I'm done. Like, I've hit my limit. I was ready, I was done. I was like, we are having a complete culture shift. Like, we're done and like, it needs to evolve. Sounds like you had it. But I also feel, and I don't know how you feel, Kieran 2020, Kieran 2024, even into 2025, leadership culture company.   keeps evolving. don't feel like I have as many of those like huge molting in 2020, huge molting in 2024, 2025. It's more of a shift in a refinement rather than a full molt. But that's, think how, at least for me, that's how I think I view leadership is.   Paul Etchison (11:37) Yeah, totally agree. It's like we go through these stages of leadership growth. And I remember for me, like leadership all the way up to COVID was like system, system, systems, consistency with team. And my team grew to like 35, 40 people and it got really unmanageable. And then when we came back from COVID from being shut down, I really wanted to try to do something different. And I wanted to keep that. ⁓   I just loved when we were shut down for COVID. I loved how it felt. It felt easy. And I said, I want that, but I don't want that craziness when we open up again. And when I did, I started to feel that same craziness. And I was going to therapy at the time. And like the therapist will tell you, just change your expectations. Don't take everything personally. And what I learned through that is there's no amount of therapy that can   broken leadership   Is that I had systems, I had consistency, but my team   had outgrown those systems. We needed more systems of leadership. So the next stage in my leadership was learning how to lead leaders and truly delegate and truly give them the autonomy to do everything. And when we did that, everything got so much better. there was parts of me that was like, I'm not the right person for this level of organization. not the right person for this size of a dental office. I'm just too anxious. I take   Kiera Dent (12:41) Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (12:59) too personally. And ultimately, I think it was just I   Kiera Dent (12:59) you   Paul Etchison (13:02) set up, I didn't set up my organization the proper way. So that was the next level up for me. And I think that's me shedding my skin finally once and for all to learn how to lead leaders. And who knows what's   Kiera Dent (13:14) Paul, I think that you are actually a really good example of letting go of control. How do you do that? Like,   I remember talking to you one day, this is offline, hopefully I'm not oversharing. And you're like, a lot of people say, like, what are you going to do if you retire? And I know you sold your practice to a DSO and you're like, I've never looked back. Like it was great. Um, you're like, I'm actually the person who's okay to just like sleep in and do nothing. Like I really am okay with that. Like, how did you let go of that control with your team? Um, knowing that they weren't going to do it exactly like you, like, I think people have this in theory. They try to do it, but.   Paul Etchison (13:23) No, of course not.   Kiera Dent (13:49) Like that's another molting. That's another really hard gap to go from full control. You're in charge of everything to I'm stressed out. Now I'm going to let team members take over and maybe you're, maybe you're an anomaly, maybe you're a unicorn, but how did you do it?   Paul Etchison (13:59) Yeah.   I think it's like we talked about the growth, but I think where we screw up as practice owners when we do this is we get upset that the team members are not doing exactly the way that we would do it. And there needs to be some wiggle room. There needs to be a lot of forgiveness. But ultimately, there's got to be clarity. And not enough practice owners are having the conversations with their team members. Like I always say, like, I'm coaching dentists all the time, and they're telling me about these issues they're having at their practice. And I'm saying, well, why do you think that is? And the answer is like, well, it might be this.   kind of think it's this and it's like, well, get curious, ask, ask your team. So for me, it was about telling my team what's expected and when   Kiera Dent (14:36) Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (14:42) didn't meet expectations, instead of like dancing around it, just going right at the   getting curious, what is going on with this? What is, why is this not happening? And then always like, you know, if you ask the right questions, the next step for any leadership, any leader is to validate their perspective.   no matter what it is and that will go so far. If you take one thing out of this podcast, do that. When your team members share something with you or if you're getting curious, asking them why things are happening, how they're feeling about something, validate their experience and watch how much they open up and they're.   open to behavior change and other options. And then that allows you the opportunity to then ask and invite participation in the solutions. What do you think we should do?   I noticed our cancellations are getting up there. Like, what are we doing about this?   What do you see happening? Getting curious. And they're saying, well, I don't know. Like, I got to ask some more   OK. And then validate their experience. I totally see how maybe you got busy with your other things and you haven't been asking your team. But we've got to ask the team and find out just so many little things.   For me, was getting out of the way, being clear with expectations. But then instead of trying to go around my leads and my leaders, my practice and go around them and deal with the other other teams myself, I let them do it and I let them fail and I help them and I support them.   And I think I know there's a lot of like team members that listen to your podcast, Kiera. I would hope if you're listening to this and you're team member, I would hope you understand how valuable you are to an owner. If you can take things, find solutions and hold your, your team members, your fellow coworkers to a certain standard, like you would be so valuable. Everyone's like, well, how can I get a raise? How can I contribute more value? I would people on my team, my leaders that do this for me, they are so valuable to me and every owner.   is just waiting for somebody to step in and fill that role. I mean, every practice could use   Kiera Dent (16:38) team members, their number one objective is to make their doctor happy.   every day, all day. That's like what my job is. That's what I want to do. That's how I want to serve. That's how I want to help out. ⁓ And I think as owners, I think it can be easy to see all the problems in your team. But I think it's what pair of sunglasses do I want to put on? Do I want to put on the one where I see like, what's wrong is just as available as what's right. Both are always available in every single scenario, every single situation. And so what are we bringing to the table and how are we looking at these different things?   How are we guiding our teams? How are we guiding our leaders? How are we showing up as leaders? How are we like, what is the filter I'm putting on every single day? Like those, those two sunglasses are right there as you walk out the door and which pair are you choosing to put on? Cause you're going to influence impact and create a team. No matter what we see what we want to see. And I believe that we create our own realities. I believe that reality is what we believe it is. And so, ⁓ I think shifting that seeing that, and I think having just a bigger plan, a bigger vision. know when I got very crystal clear of where am I headed?   What is my role? Like, this is gonna sound funny, Paul. I literally Googled like, what does a CEO do? I think doctors come out of school, like you're a doctor, like you do the dentistry, like that's what I'm supposed to do. And I remember one day I was sitting there and I'm like, what is the CEO even supposed to do? Like, I don't even know, like, like really, like where is a CEO, like dictionary, like job description, I realized, got it. It's profit, vision, and culture. Like those are really my main things. Stay out of the weeds and like go for it. And...   Paul Etchison (17:43) you   Kiera Dent (18:04) That's what I'm bred to do. Bring the great ideas, bring those different pieces. That's my job. That's my responsibility. I think dentists also have the second tier of you do dentistry too. So you are a clinician in there and then you have those pieces. But driving culture, driving a culture of accountability of fail, fail forward. like, gosh, I just read this really awesome book and they said, we measure it by outcomes, not activity.   Like just stuff like that. Like you start to become this person who wants to evolve your culture, evolve who your team is, evolve who you are as a person. And I think Paul, even in just knowing you, I think there's been an evolution of who you are as well. ⁓ I think that is just, and hopefully I've evolved too, like fingers crossed there's been an evolution and I'm not as quite, I don't know. I think we keep the best of ourselves. And then I think just evolve into our 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 levels. I guess I just asked the questions of   Paul Etchison (18:42) Absolutely.   Kiera Dent (18:58) I think you've got a fascinating story. You were full, full practice owner. You were in there. You sold out to a DSO. You're still in your practice. You still train. You, you've evolved. If you were sitting back when I met you, what would you tell that Paul of what you know today that would have made that whole experience, whether you're selling, whether you're growing, evolving. I mean, you have a very large practice. It's been real fun to watch you and your practice and everything. What would you have told that Paul?   Paul Etchison (19:27) Yeah, and this comes up a lot with my coaching clients. A lot of people ask me that. And one of the things, if we're looking at our practice, and I'm going back to the beginning, is if we want to sell our practice, if we want to cut back our days, if we want to have the most profitable practice ever, a lot of the times the strategy is identical. We're just trying to go through and create more freedom for ourselves as practice owners by empowering our team, getting them to do a lot of the responsibility.   Kiera Dent (19:48) Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (19:57) to be accountable for a lot of the stuff. So I think if I could go back and tell myself again, man, first of all, just stop taking everything so personal. And you come in and you look at it with these different lens of leadership and maturity and all these leadership skills. It's not just at the practice. It shows up in your relationships with your spouse, with your friends, with your kids, like all these things. Like it's all intertwined. But I would have much earlier got the leaders going in my practice because one of the things   Kiera Dent (20:16) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (20:27) happen through my practice sale is I just like I mentioned I felt like it wasn't I'm not cut out for this I'm sick of being miserable I'm sick of being stressed I'm sick of taking it home and I'm sick of taking it out on people that I love and so when I sold it I said okay I'm on my three-year exit plan I'm getting out of here I'm moving on I don't know what I'm gonna do but I'm gonna move on so I said you know my associate partner Dr. Kathy she owns part of the practice too   I'm gonna pass it to her and maybe she won't be able to do it as well as me. But I need to set this up so she is just, I wanna bless her with this amazing practice that runs on its own. And in the process of setting that up with my leaders, I realized, dang, I don't know if I would have sold. And I'm still happy I sold, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I would have, but that's what I would have tried to do early in my career. I would have went, who are the leaders? ⁓ The whole thing with like the Dan Kennedy of the who, not how. Not how do we do it, but who's gonna do this?   Kiera Dent (21:11) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   Right.   Paul Etchison (21:25) And I would have leaned into that a lot more because I think I would have been a lot happier. I would have been able to enjoy the journey more. But at the same time, it's like we learn from our mistakes and you got to make the mistakes to learn from. So it's like, so that whole Catch-22, would I change anything? I don't think so because I wouldn't be, if I didn't have the same experience, I wouldn't be the person I am today. But man, I wish I had learned it earlier. That's for sure.   Kiera Dent (21:45) Sure.   It's fair. And I'm actually happy to hear that because I feel like this is like the DSO conundrum and like the cell. And I'm happy to hear you say that because it validates what we try to coach on to. So many doctors are like, I'm just going to sell. And I'm like, well, let's just look at this. If you sell, let's look at what your life will look like on the other side of it. Let's look to see where you are today. And really, let's get to the root of why do you want to sell? And I think, Paula, if we would have asked you that same question.   Why did you wanna sell? My hunch is it was all these problems, all these issues. It was just like, I'm sick of it. Like, let's just pass this on. Let's move on. When a great leader, a great office manager, a CEO, a CFO could have easily come in, taken over for you. You could have had the exact same scenario. You just would have owned it and had more options on the table. Like you said, it's not right, it's not wrong. But I think like for everybody listening, I think today is a good reflection of one, are you going through a molt? Like, are we molting anywhere?   ⁓ and do we, or do we need to molt? Like, is there something we need to shed, let go of identity wise? And then two, I like to do this reflection a lot. And I encourage a lot of people to do it. It sounds like Paul, you do it. Like when we're in these issues in these problems, are we stopping and pausing and asking like, what is the root? Not the symptom, the top line symptom is like, I'm so stressed. And I got this and this and this, but like, do we ever stop and pause to dig to that route and find out   what is really at the root. For me, I often have many journals that are like this, this, this, and I just like list it all out of all these things are frustrating me. But what I'm trying to do is find what is a thread? What is the piece in that that's causing the chaos because then we go fix that. And that's what I love in practices because 99 % of the time what people tell you on the top line, so coaching offices, coaching doctors, coaching teams, like Paul, you know this, I know this. What people tell you at the top is not really what's the problem.   It's the bottom layered, there's something rooted, there's something under there. These are just symptoms on the top. Same thing with patients and case acceptance, right? It's the up at the top, what they're telling you is not really what they're feeling. And all you gotta do is just dig under, find out what that root is and stress and that will go away. And so Paul, thank you for, I just am curious. I've always been curious, like, would you have done something differently? Of course we never can, like, no, we're not going to. But if I could go back and tell that younger self things, like,   Kyri, get rid of your ego, honey. Like trust your team, trust that team to do amazing, trust them to do better than you are, trust them to be better than you, trust them to make better decisions than you do, because I want to create that kind of a team and me believing that is going to ultimately turn my team into that. They have the whole study about teachers with kids and IQs and like if they believe that they have a stronger IQ without doing anything different, that child actually ends up with a higher IQ. Well, why don't we take that same principle and apply it to our teams and see what happens.   Paul Etchison (24:23) Yeah.   It's so true. And I love that you say like the reflection that you did, because I noticed this with my coaching   is that there's a lot of, there's a lot of how, how do we do this? How do we fix this? But I think anyone listening, if you just sat down in a dark room, maybe not dark room, but you're sitting down in a quiet room for 30 minutes and you reflect it, what do I really, you know, I do this with my coaching clients. We call it a practice clarity and frustration exercise. What do we, what really bothers you with the practice? What is it that really just, you know, grind your gears,   it down and it sounds simple but once you write it down you can like visually see it and start to brainstorm for solutions and you start to make this progress that not only affects the way your practice runs but the way that you're the way that you feel and I think ultimately as practice owners we need to realize that the CEO hat you mentioned what does a CEO do we need time for that and we don't have time for that when you're doing four or five days of dentistry that's why when I'm working with clients the first thing I'm gonna do with a practice owner is I'm gonna get them down to three days clinic   Kiera Dent (25:10) Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (25:27) And it always works. so inefficient. There's so many things we can do with scheduling and efficiency and production that we can get you down to three days clinical. But now you've got that extra day to put on that CEO hat, to reflect on the things, to write down and figure out what your plan of attack is. I mean, that's what I've got a workshop coming up in February that that's focused on that. How do we get you down to three days? And that's all I want to do in this three day workshop. We're, of course, doing these reflection activities. But I think this is over the course of my career and working   Kiera Dent (25:27) Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (25:57) with people, that's what I've seen moves the needle the most. We need time and we need to give the energy where it's due. And it's not, we   be 100 % clinician. It just doesn't work that way.   Kiera Dent (26:09) Yeah, no, Paul, I love that. And think that's such a fun thing. I think dentists need this. Dentists need to have their vision, have their clarity. But I think from today, the wrap is it started out with a photo, unexpectedly, of this is what we're ⁓ kicking the day off of, going from where we were to where we want to be, ⁓ looking at that, reflecting back, seeing. Because   Paul Etchison (26:23) Yeah. How do we get here?   Kiera Dent (26:34) There's a client that you and I both know. They're pretty well known ⁓ that we work with. whenever I work with, gosh, it's so many practices. I think there's like 300 employees and I'm like, gosh, I remember all their names every time. ⁓ But they talk about how sometimes the best learning is just remembering. Remembering where we've been, remembering where we're going to go, remembering things that we've learned looking there. So it's like remembering where I've been so that way I can kickstart and project into where I need to go.   using your team to get there. Your team wants to be your best asset for that. So Paul, those are kind of my wrap thoughts. I know today has just been a real fun day. Always enjoy a good podcast with you. Any last thoughts you have?   Paul Etchison (27:15) No, you know, I would just close it off with   having the listener just believe, just believe in the possibility of what's going, what is possible with your practice. ⁓ There was a point where we talked about reflection. I reflected and I said, I wrote down everything I do at the practice and I wrote down how many of these activities bring me joy and how many of them I hate. And I believe it was something like 80 % of them I hated. So that's no way to live your practice life. You spend a lot of time at work. So why not do the reflection and put the time and energy into   Kiera Dent (27:38) Mm-hmm.   Paul Etchison (27:45) Making your practice a better place to be at it's not just gonna affect you. It's gonna affect your family. It's gonna affect your team ⁓ There's big your ripples that come from this little thing So I would say sit down find a coach find a mentor read some books it is possible believe in yourself and It all starts with the planning so sit down and write down some things journal love it   Kiera Dent (28:09) Journal it up. Well, Paul, I appreciate you so much.   I ⁓ just love what you're doing for our community. I love the things that we're able to accomplish together. ⁓ And yeah, guys, check him out in Dental Practice Heroes podcast. He's got some great stuff over there as well. ⁓ Paul, so good to have you on the podcast. I think you mentioned the event in February. If people want to know more about that, how do they connect with you on that?   Paul Etchison (28:35) Yeah, go to DentalPracticeHeroes.com slash freedom. So that's where the information on the three day workshop, it's going to   awesome. And I'm doing a money back guarantee. If you don't think you liked it, if you don't like what you signed up for, I'll give you all your money back. I believe in it that much. And I know from me coaching for the past six years, I know this is what produces results. So go check that out,   more about the courses, check out the podcast. And I'm always happy to talk to any listeners if they want some help or they just want to find out what we're more about. Please just go to the website, DentalPracticeHeroes.com.   dot com.   Kiera Dent (29:06) Amazing. Paul, thank you so much for being on the podcast. For all of you listening, I hope you do take the time to reflect. I do hope you think about where you want to go and what you want with your life. And just appreciate you guys all being here. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

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“Drum circles were created to build inclusivity, equity, and diversity.” In this episode, Nick speaks with Andrew Ecker to explore the cultural significance of drumming, particularly within indigenous communities, and highlights the historical context of drum circles as a means of fostering inclusivity and diversity and healing from trauma and addiction. What to listen for: Drumming and sound healing, overall, can positively impact our mental well-being The historical context of drumming reflects a blend of various cultural influences Drumming fosters community and shared experiences Addiction is based in shame and can often be spurred on by our early experiences Embracing our calling heals ourselves and others “All of us are connected to the earth. All of us are indigenous. All of us have the air, the water, the fire, and the earth flowing through us.” Identity goes deeper than culture or job titles; it's rooted in our relationship to the earth and life itself Separation from nature often fuels disconnection, anxiety, and burnout The elements are a reminder that we're not isolated individuals; we're part of a living system Reclaiming earth-based identity can be deeply grounding and healing “Do something for people — and you'll discover the truest truth of who you are.” Service often reveals purpose more clearly than self-reflection alone Helping others pulls us out of isolation and into meaningful connection You don't need to be “healed” or perfect to make a difference Showing up for others strengthens self-trust and self-worth About Andrew Ecker Andrew is a speaker, author, and creator of the Drumming Sounds Protocol, an evidence-based wellness intervention that blends ancient rhythm traditions with modern neuroscience to improve mental health, recovery, and community connection. With over 25 years of experience facilitating more than 5,000 drumming and sound-based programs, Andrew has worked with hospitals, treatment centers, universities, and tribal nations across the country. His book, The Sacred 7, explores identity, ancestry, and the transformative power of ceremony—a topic that resonates deeply with audiences seeking meaning, resilience, and personal empowerment. As a former youth outreach leader and recovery coach with over two decades in sobriety, Andrew brings a powerful, real-world perspective to conversations about trauma, healing, and spirituality. His ability to blend science, story, and spirit makes him a compelling guest for podcasts focused on wellness, recovery, leadership, and conscious living. https://www.drummingsounds.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-ecker-sacred7/ https://www.facebook.com/andrew.ecker1/ For our audience, please enjoy a free copy of Andrew's book, “The Sacred 7” — it's available for download at http://thesacredseven.com/ Resources: Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:02.959)Hello and welcome to the Mindset Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show, we have Andrew Ecker. Andrew, what’s going on? Andrew Ecker (00:13.602)How’s it going, Nick? Nick McGowan (00:15.649)It’s good. I’m glad that you’re here. I’m excited for us to talk about music and drum circles and sound healing and all the things that relate to all of that. And we were gonna have a call maybe like a year and a half ago or so. And there’ve been some people that have like backed out of the show and I’ve been like, that’s fine. You can do whatever you want to do. But you were one of the people I was like, I hope he comes back. So I’m glad that you’re here. I’m glad that people are gonna be able to hear this conversation. And why don’t you get us started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre. Andrew Ecker (00:48.769)Awesome. So before we do that, I’d like to just take a moment and honor myself in the space by introducing myself formally in traditional language of my ancestors. This is a language called Nde Baza, which basically means the people’s tongue. So Dago Tse, Tse Nde, Andirector Yenise, Adon Dae Nshinigye, Nde Nshe, Irish Pashachin, Nde Dasha Tshe, German Dasha Nali, Kote Goe Itshliye, Portland, Oregon, Enishe. Shama’e, Kathy Lindsay Woye, Shaza’e Del Eccorale. So my name is Andrew Eccor, my mother Kathy Lindsay, my father Del Eccor, my mother’s mother Elva Gallegos, Apache woman from New Mexico. She grew up in a little town called Capitan right outside the Mescalero reservation. Although my ancestral lines go back to the Madera Valley of Texas and Chihuahua, Mexico. The Apaches from this area are called La Pond Band Apache. My father’s mother Evelyn Beatty, an Irish woman from Pennsylvania. She actually was very proud that our ancestor William Beatty fought in the Revolutionary War to establish this country. So I do consider myself a son of the revolution on that side of my family. My mother’s father Leroy Lindsay, a Korean and Vietnam War veteran, and my father’s father Wayne Ecker, a World War II veteran. I have a daughter Bailey, son Peyton, a beloved fiancee named Monica. I was born in the ancestral land of the Multnomah Clackamas of Malamit in Portland, Oregon. although I currently reside in the ancestral land of the Akmal, Atom, the Peaposh and the Hohokam in Phoenix, Arizona. And very grateful to be here with you. So the thing that I do primarily is I work in healthcare and I’m a drum circle facilitator and sound medicine practitioner and also a peer support specialist, recovery coach. Most of the work that I do is in variety of different healthcare settings. So everything from psychiatric lockdowns to memory care, skilled nursing, prisons, jails, drug and alcohol treatment facilities, I facilitated about 5,000 wellness-based events with a protocol I’ve developed called Drumming Sounds. So Drumming Sounds is a step-by-step process of creating outcomes that are wellness-based. So reducing stress, increasing immunity, lowering blood pressure, Andrew Ecker (03:13.865)helping people connect through music and really creating a safe, sacred space for people to come into group drumming. So group drumming is a really powerful wellness intervention and so it’s a small group of studies done on it and it’s pretty amazing what the science community has found. So yeah, so that’s what I do and also do some coaching stuff, of course, help people out. Something unique about me, that a lot of people don’t know. You know, I grew up in a home where both my parents were addicted to drugs and my mom died of a cocaine overdose and my father died of cirrhosis of liver caused by hepatitis C. So growing up in that environment, I was around a lot of really intense experiences. And I think something that a lot of people don’t know about me is that because of that, My relationship with PTSD as a child was something really intense and my first suicide attempt I was seven years old. I remember attempting to hang myself at seven and thankfully, you know, I didn’t succeed. But from the time of that first attempt till really probably my late 20s, I was dealing with suicidal ideation and a severe relationship to other mental health concerns, including situational schizophrenia, depression, anxiety. These are all things I live in relationship with today. Nick McGowan (05:01.261)So, where do I go from here? know, way to drop everything on us. I first off want to thank you and appreciate how you started this and being able to show back to your ancestors and being able to talk from your original language. I think we can sometimes forget about where we come from. Our genetics do not. our generational trauma does not. There’s so many things that, like you dealt with so much with your parents. I’m sure we could just tackle through all of that, but what your parents dealt with, that then they transferred along to you and what their parents dealt with, et cetera, et cetera, and how all of that was tossed to us. Most people I don’t think really think about that because they just think, well, my parents are assholes, so I’m trying to do better or whatever. It’s like, well, let’s actually take steps back generations before that. and before that, before that. And I think we can sometimes also forget about where you actually came from. Like you rattled off a lot of family members. And as I was thinking about it, I was like, I’m making me, I maybe go like two layers deep. People beyond that, I don’t really know. And I don’t really know if they’re still around or what the hell’s going on or whatever, because of the way that I was raised. And it’s interesting to think about how we should. actually get back to more community-based things, but there’s a lot of unlearning to do with all of that. And I’ve read through the stuff you’ve sent. I’ve seen the different things you’ve done. I’ve known about you for a little bit, but I wouldn’t have even been able to know about the things that you’ve just rattled off. And really, mean, shit, where do you want to start with this? and thinking about from a mental health and a mindset and overall transformation, self mastery. I’m not trying to just throw out buzzwords, but like there are categorical things we can talk about here, you know? Andrew Ecker (06:59.456)Yeah. Andrew Ecker (07:03.264)Yeah, for sure. And that’s really why I’d like to share that traditional introduction because it does give us an opportunity to understand what healthy communities have looked at as self-identity, really the foundation of creating a healthy person. We’re talking about tens of thousands of years of this idea that we are our parents, we are our grandparents, we are from someplace and we live someplace. You know, these principles of self-identity. And just like you were sharing, know, remembering that is very important because we live in a time where our earth-based identity has been systematically erased from our mindset. And this is done through systematic organization of space, you know, ideas like the patriarchy, manoralism and feudalism. You know, these really predominant institutions systematically created a separation from us being our family and being from the earth. Yet all of us are connected to the earth. All of us are indigenous. All of us have the air, the water, the fire, the earth flowing through us. And the more that we can remember that, the more that we can validate that we are valuable just as a person. The contemporary culture has created this idea that we’re a job. And that’s our identity, that’s our value. And that idea was really created around feudalism and manalism historically because these were the only… Well, everyone in those systems was a job-based identity other than the landlords. And the landlords were the ones who were able to have an earth-based identity. If you weren’t have land and land title, You were a smith, a parson, a knight, a sewer, all of these behavioral based ideas of identity. And as we begin to really look at these constructs, you can see that the devaluing of the human condition is a purposeful and an intentional plot to really create what we’re faced with today. And what we’re faced with today is a lot of people Andrew Ecker (09:26.423)wandering around feeling valueless, hopeless, and really in a condition that promotes the use of destructive behaviors such as substances. know, myself, growing up in an environment where I remember the D.A.R.E. program coming into my school, and you know, during D.A.R.E., a lot of people don’t remember, but the D.A.R.E. police were getting children to turn in their parents for using cannabis. and for using substances. And I remember my mom was really scared that this was going to happen. So she kind of cornered me one day and said to me, you know, if they come into your school, you can’t tell them that we use this. And it was really weird to me, because like those were the best times I remember. You know, my job as a little boy was to clean the stems and the seeds out of the cannabis. You know, back when cannabis had stems and seeds. You know, and people rolled a joint. It wasn’t a free roll. You know, but my family used to sit around and smoke and that was when they were social. You know, nobody was drunk fighting. Nobody was in the bathroom or in the bedroom with the door shut. You know, doing intravenous drugs, they were social. And I just couldn’t understand that as a kid. But yet I remember them coming into my school and they had flags and Nick McGowan (10:24.073)You Andrew Ecker (10:51.996)guns and these were great big intimidating police officers. And I remember my heart racing and my palms getting sweaty. And thankfully they didn’t interrogate me. But what they did was they said to this group of children, if you have one drug addict parent, you’re 50 % more likely to become a drug addict. Now I’m not saying that they did this intentionally to give children this idea that they’re genetically flawed. They were trying to impart to these kids. that, you know, don’t use drugs. That’s what, you know, is the big thing. You know, just say no, all this stuff. But what it did for me is it told me, well, 50 and 50, that’s 100. That must be who I am. And this was the first time in my life that anyone told me I was genetically flawed. You know, and the extension of eugenics isn’t something that is merely a part of, you know, the Nazi regime. Nick McGowan (11:35.326)Hmm. Andrew Ecker (11:47.256)You know, eugenics enters into childhood ideas in these sorts of systematic ways. You know, now, you know, fast forward, we’ve come to a place of understanding that it’s not just eugenics, but it’s epigenetics and really looking at how we can create environments that create successful human beings. And that’s what I’m able to do with the drum circle. You know, the drum circle is really an environment that creates a healthy human being. as to where the destructive forces of incarceration, imprisonment and devaluing people because they have a mental health concern created those behaviors that were a part of my parents’ lives and unfortunately a part of my life. know, it wasn’t that moment that I became a drug addict when the Derikoff said that to me. But later on, as I would grow older, that seed started to take root. And when I was a teenager, I ended up in the spoon with my dad, meaning I was using heroin with my father. You know, my mom used to use me to shoplift. I was in and out of drug houses. I mean, it was, I was exposed to things as a little boy that only makes sense today in my path of service. You know, as I’ve learned to manage these things and as I’ve learned to show up and help people reconnect to who they are, it’s all made perfect sense to me. But as a little boy, man, I didn’t know what was going on. I didn’t know how to deal with it. I just wanted the pain to end. know, and, you know, thankfully I found heroin because heroin helped me through my suicidal ideation. Because I don’t know if I would be alive today if it wasn’t for heroin. You know, things got real bad for me when I was, you know, 17, 18 years old. Nick McGowan (13:41.68)I gotta be honest, I never thought I would hear anybody else say that thankfully I had heroin because that changed things. I overdosed on heroin when I was 19. And the people that were there in the room, I’m thankful that they wanted to save their own lives and one person like beat the shit out of me so I threw everything up. But I remember walking home smoking a cigarette after that being like, what the fuck just happened? All right. And looking up being like, all right, I guess there’s some reason why I’m here. And I think back to that. But that wasn’t like that one moment, just like the moment that you were talking about or any of those other little moments were just a bag of moments in a sense. All these things, like even as a little kid, you don’t really know. Like, and I totally understand where you’re coming from with the parents hanging around, smoking joints, all of that. I was in parts of some of that. My mom and dad were never together and it was like totally separate ways of being and all of that. living in and out of bars, basically, like being the kid eating a maraschino cherries and all that shit, and everyone just smoking cigarettes like a pack at a time and out around your face. There are people that don’t understand those things. Even like the dare stuff. I’ve had conversations with people kind of recently, like within the past handful of months, where some people were like, dare scared the shit out of me. And I didn’t want to touch like caffeine or anything else. Other people were like, I learned there were drugs out there. So was like, great, can I have some? And then other people went through stuff like you where they’re like, well, you’re telling me this is how it is. I think it’s interesting how we can suspect that, let’s just say, dare wasn’t trying to brainwash. know, let’s just say that their thing was like, we want to help and we want to make sure that you have the statistics. But these are also adults that are like, well, 50 % of you become addicts. So why don’t we just tell the kids that you take it as one way. Some other kid takes it a different way. And there’s no repercussion to that at all to then like, that wasn’t a thing that you then brought up the next day in school. It like, know what? Yesterday, I learned this thing and now I feel like the rest of my life is gonna change. That just started to grow bit by bit by bit. And then you already had the genes of being addicted. Nick McGowan (16:02.023)I know I have to come back to some fucking question basically. And my question at all times with that sort of stuff is like, how do we stop that from happening? Because even with the DARE stuff, it’s like, yeah, cool, thanks. Now I know there are other drugs out there and also know what the end is and I’ll fall back to marijuana because like, why the fuck? It’s a fucking plan. But all things in moderation and like all those different aspects to it. But what do we do? You know, like you move to music. And as a musician and creative myself, I moved toward that too, but I often think of the times of smoking a joint and playing music and like those are happy moments. but to some people that might be destructive and all of that, but you moved closer into music. So I think music sometimes can be part of our addiction, you know, like I’m addicted to sound. but being able to turn that into a healing thing. So I don’t want to just jump past everything you went through. Andrew Ecker (16:57.041)Thank Nick McGowan (16:59.844)with your parents because that made you who you are. But being able to look back at some of those moments to go, now with the work that you do, the way that you were raised, what are some of those bridge points that you can look at and go, man, I was really looking for community. I was looking for ways to do this and do that. You know what I mean? Andrew Ecker (17:18.16)Yeah, exactly. I really believe that all addiction for me is based around relationship and filling the void of the absence of relationship with the substance. And I remember the first time that this really happened to me, me and my mom were out shoplifting all day. I was just a little guy. I was, you know, probably eight, nine, I don’t know, somewhere around there. I remember being all bundled up and maybe even younger. I was you know, elementary school age. And she takes me to the park and she left me there at the park with a bucket of chicken. And I remember her saying, I’ll be right back and her driving off and me eating that chicken to fill the void and the fear of my mom not coming back for me. Being left at the park and knowing in my childhood mind that she was going to a dope house and there could have been something that happened. It was just the anxiety of that entire situation I was feeling with the warmth of that chicken. And then later on, you know, as I started to grow in my own personal self mastery, I started to look back at the patterns of loneliness and grief and isolation and how every time that I found myself using, really, it was that idea. It was about creating camaraderie at first, community. finding a judgment free zone. You know, I grew up being bounced around family member to family member. So definitely had home insecurity and really wasn’t, you know, in a place where I felt like I had a home. So I didn’t feel that sense of security that maybe most people grow up with. So when I found the security of friends that would accept me, you know, just if I got high with them, that’s all I needed. It wasn’t like I needed to be smart, it wasn’t like I needed to be funny, it wasn’t like I needed to be athletic, you know, it wasn’t like I needed to be a great musician, any of those things. I just needed to show up and get high and you know and have money to get high or be able to hustle and that was really my first support system was the community of people that I was using with and what happens for most people that are in the struggle of substance use disorder Andrew Ecker (19:43.015)is that they focus on what not to do. And they never really understand what the drugs and alcohol gave to them. You know, asking myself, what was it that heroin gave to me? What was it that alcohol gave to me? And how can I effectively create a way of meeting that need? Because we all have human needs. Every single one of us is going through something. And you know, it’s a lot easier when we go through it together and building that foundation of community. is so important in me being able to have functional behaviors today. So I’m constantly evolving in the way that I’m able to show up in community. I have my drum circle community. I have the people that I serve in the institutions and healthcare and the schools. And then I also have other activities like doing poetry or playing pickleball, going to the gym. You know, these are ways that I definitely look at creating community where I’m at. There was a time when church was a really big part of my life. You know, now I go to sweat lodge and I have a spiritual community there. Uh, you know, I’m not opposed to going to meetings, but I, know, I don’t go to a lot now, but definitely going to 12 step meetings and all of these things are a great way that we can build a supportive community. And when you ask, you know, Like when we think about children that have been affected by the mental health crisis, you know, how do we help them navigate? How do we help the youth navigate? And I think it’s really about creating a fortified sense of community. And, you know, when we think about drumming, oftentimes we go to this idea that drumming is this exclusive experience for indigenous communities, that it’s something that really is ceremonial and ritualistic and yes there is definitely ritual and ceremony but drum circles began as creating a culture of inclusivity, equity and really diversity because the drum circle of North America originated in the 1700s in New Orleans and under French colonial occupation Native Americans, Africans, Europeans, people from all over the world Andrew Ecker (22:09.146)were able to gather with the common language of group drumming. And that group drumming created a foundation for jazz, blues, R &B, gospel, and eventually rock and roll. So when I go in and I facilitate a drum circle, it’s from the American experience of group drumming that has always been about creating a culture of diversity, has always been about creating a space of connection. through diverse groups. And when we have that sacred space, we can know that something good is gonna happen. And we as Americans, we don’t know that the only truly American instrument is the drum kit. The jazz drum kit is really the only truly American instrument. So we have this vast history of drumming together that is hundreds of years old, literally as old as the concept of of America, yet for some reason this sort of stuff isn’t taught in school. And it’s not taught to us about the richness of creating a culture of diversity, of inclusion, of equity, and what the brilliance of that looks like in an artistic sense. And I think today we’re threatened by a voice that is coming from a group of people that says that diversity, inclusion, and equity is something to fear. And I’m like people, that’s the very greatest gifts that we’ve given to the world has come from us coming together as a people. And it feels good. You know, it feels good to give yourself an opportunity to be around people in an activity that you normally wouldn’t be around. And I think that that’s the power of our journey and the wellness and the brilliance of our community. Nick McGowan (23:58.594)Hmm. Andrew Ecker (24:04.405)And when we can get back to teaching each other that, when we can get back to fortifying the space of that concept of what that America looks like, we’ll have the brilliance of being the shining city on the hillside that calls the weary, that calls the hurting, that calls the desperate. And you know, the struggle that my parents went through, the pain that they were going through, and the ostracization of being criminalized for having a mental health issue. You know, that’s what this country has done very effectively. You know, 90 % of people in our prison system have a mental health issue. And that is sad that we have done this to the most vulnerable people in our population. And we have more people in prison than any industrialized nation in the world. But if you counted the people that were in psychiatric lockdowns, memory care, skilled nursing, and other forms of institutionalization, that number would be astronomical. And these are the people that I have spent the past 20 years working with, helping, desperately giving to, because in that space, I feel fulfilled as a human being, but I also get to see some of the most brilliant experiences and miraculous experiences in my life, Nick. I mean, we’ll go into these memory care facilities where we have late stage Alzheimer’s patients that are nonverbal and we’ll set the drum down in front of them. The nurses sometimes will come over and say, they won’t play, don’t even bother. I mean, this is our healthcare workers and we’ll say, no, just keep it there. And next thing you know, you see them tapping their foot. And before you know it, they’re playing and they’re singing and You know, it’s just miraculous to know that the tens of thousands of years of evidence-based practice of utilizing group drumming has not been wasted and that it’s still relevant to the healthcare conversation and it still is meaningful and it still helps people. Nick McGowan (26:15.97)Why don’t see how it can’t not continue that way, you know? Like, I think everybody that will listen to this will have heard at least one time, music is the universal language. And for us to be able to actually feel music, there are people that don’t really understand music. They don’t feel it the same way musicians do, let’s say. Like there are sometimes I’ll share things with people and I’m like, listen to how this happens with this and my God. then it just does things to you. You feel that at different times. Other people don’t know that. That’s just not part of their being. Yet still, they can feel the frequencies. If we really break it down into quantum level, we are all waves and frequencies anyway. And all of this ties into everything. man, I’m sitting here like I got chills even as you’re talking about, because I’m visualizing that older person who the healthcare workers are basically like, we see them every day. They don’t do anything because we also don’t do anything different. Andrew Ecker (26:48.163)yes. Nick McGowan (27:15.083)And we’re kind of jaded and overworked and fuck, I could really use a vacation. Like they have their own problems. And then they’re just like, no, don’t worry about them. They’re not going to do it. But that frequency will still get in there. So I could imagine it’s got to be a, that’s probably one of those things like drum circles per se is one of those things that people probably won’t go to on the top list of 30 things that they’re going to do to work on themselves at first. You know, so even Like if somebody were to say, you’re having these problems, you have some addiction, you have anything and they go, well, go to a drum circle. I would imagine most people would look at somebody like a dog would like, what the fuck does that, what do you mean? so what would you say to those people that haven’t even thought of that? This is one of those things where like, wow, I’ve talked to somebody, I went to a doctor and I’m doing these and we’re doing blah, blah, blah. What advice do you give to those people that this has been one of those things that. was probably not even deep, deep in their mind, even as a musician, to think about how drum circles and drumming could help them. Andrew Ecker (28:19.943)Well, I definitely feel that a lot of that has been because of the cultural stereotypes about drumming and this idea of, you know, the witch doctor or voodoo or, you know, something along these lines. you know, it just is, it’s crazy to really unpack when you have communities that have thrived with a relationship to the earth, lived functionally for tens of thousands of years. And at the heart of those communities, is group drumming, dancing and singing. I mean, this is literally the oldest wellness based event that we have as human beings. And somehow, you know, through the lens of religion and not even really, I would say because I was a pastor for three and half years that I can tell you that there’s a lot of reference in the Bible even of sound medicine. I mean, David, you know, played the leader for Saul who had like mental health concerns. And it’s, mean, there’s references to the women of Israel coming out playing the drum. So it isn’t like an educated Judeo-Christian bias. It’s an uneducated Judeo-Christian bias that creates this narrative that, those brown and black people are the people, those savages, that drum. And it’s really unfortunate because even Nick McGowan (29:21.642)Mm-hmm. Andrew Ecker (29:48.061)in the very progressive world of integrative medicine, there still is a void around drumming. I am a presenter at some of the most prestigious healthcare conferences in the United States. And I remember confronting a doctor that was talking about mindfulness and he had, he was a keynote and he had this tree of mindfulness and all of these branches led to different aspects of mindfulness. One of them, of course, went to yoga, Tai Chi, but there wasn’t a branch that went to drumming and dance. And I confronted him in front of the entire group of doctors, 500 doctors. And I said, why isn’t there a branch to drumming? And he was very apologetic. And he said, there needs to be a branch on that tree to drumming. And I said, yes, we’re working on making that happen. But it is overlooked. Nick McGowan (30:37.513)Hmm. Andrew Ecker (30:46.148)And you know, I can tell you that I am a part of a community of people that have the more that they drum, they may have come to a drum circle and been drinking and smoking. But by the time, you know, a couple of years go by and they get around people like myself that are completely abstinent from substance use and I’m drumming and having a great time and dancing, the more that they start to question, well, do I really need this? And then it’s just Nick McGowan (31:13.566)Hmm. Andrew Ecker (31:13.911)a matter of them just being in that environment. And I have friends come up to me and say, Hey, you know what? I didn’t tell anybody about this, but I haven’t drank in, you know, six months. And I’m like, right on, you know, and friends come up and say, I haven’t smoked in a year and I just kind of went away because drumming as well as you know, Nick, music gives us that feeling of community connection. I mean, there is no deeper connection. that you can experience, then when you hit a note or when you play a rhythm and everybody ends together and nobody said stop, or the thing just fades away into the brilliance of the experience and you’re just like, holy crap. This, mean, as a musician, and if you talk to musicians, they can tell you precisely when that happened in their life, because it’s one of those memories. Nick McGowan (31:51.954)Mm-hmm. Andrew Ecker (32:09.966)that is embedded into you on a cellular level. It is literally like you’re touching God. I mean, it is so powerful. And every person, we have communities where that was literally the entire community experience. I was fortunate enough to go to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and meet with the Havasupai. And I did three suicide prevention programs down there. This is the most remote Native American tribe in the continental United States. Nick McGowan (32:13.95)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (32:26.279)you Andrew Ecker (32:39.159)There’s no roads to their nation. There’s no airstrips. It’s only horseback helicopter or foot. That’s the only way you can get down there. And I met with an elder named Tiny Haunan. And Tiny was playing the drum and singing. And he said, when I was a little boy, we used to drum, dance and sing for a week straight. He said the people would fall asleep on the ground, wake up, start singing and dancing again. And they would drum literally for an entire week. Now the frequency of that, the cellular alliance, the reconfiguration of the energetic meridians in the body, like there is no place for depression in that environment. There’s no place for anxiety in that environment. I mean, you’re literally rewiring your nervous system and coming into our harmonic connection with the earth. And this is really what it means to be an earthling. You know, the music that we play, Nick McGowan (33:21.758)you Andrew Ecker (33:38.14)is something that we practice to play at the level that we can play at. But everybody knows that there’s a point where the instrument is playing you. And when you’re in that mystery, man, when you are in that mystery, like every single person deserves to experience that in their lives. Every single person deserves to be in the brilliance of that experience because it solves the issues, man. It solves it. Nick McGowan (33:50.055)Mm-hmm. Andrew Ecker (34:06.196)And when you taste that, you’re hungry for it forever. And I’ll go to, you know, like I facilitate drum circles and that really doesn’t happen in a drum circle. But a taste of that does happen. Like a place of connection to the feeling of support and the intricacy of music and even the freedom that you can experience in that space, it will happen. And You know, it does take a level of mastery to experience the depths of that. And hopefully people will be able to go on their journey with music to that place. like that is, dude, I mean, there’s nothing better than that right there. I mean, if you could take and put that into a bottle, people would spend their lives wanting to… And that’s why musicians do what they do, They will… Nick McGowan (35:02.119)Mm-hmm. Andrew Ecker (35:02.624)They will literally sleep on the couch of their best friend to go experience that. They will literally not go to work to go experience that. They will do whatever they possibly can to experience that. you know, unfortunately, in a world that doesn’t value music like our ancestors did, you know, for tens of thousands of years, and even today, you know, you go to India, they have ceremonies that are a month. where it’s just people drumming, dancing and singing for a month straight. You you go to Hopi right here in the United States on the Hopi reservation. They’re doing that same idea because the practice of living in integration with the earth promotes the quality of the earthling condition. So where you’re not worried, you go sleep in a mud house rather than go try to make a billion dollars so that you have a big old fancy house. if you get that experience of community. You know, and that experience of community solves everything, man. And we got to get it in our schools. We got to get it in our our our health care facilities. We’re trying our best. We train 350 people now in the drumming sounds protocol. We’re out there doing it every day, you know, and just trying to live our best lives. So is it the solution? I think that we have, like I said, thousands, literally people, thousands of years. Nick McGowan (36:17.638)Hmm. Andrew Ecker (36:30.459)of evidence-based practice out there. Like, wake up, people, wake up. Like, yeah, we need drumming. You know? Nick McGowan (36:39.836)Yeah, I mean, even just the community level of that, but the music and the frequency level of all of it and everything that ties into it. I love the work that you’re doing. I really do. I think it’s crazy that the arts and music especially is being taken out of different schools and everything’s being really like commodified almost, even when you think of music. For the most part, pop music. It’s an ABA, CAB sort of situation. It’s the same thing. There was even a thing like 10, 15 years ago where somebody played a Nickelback song forward and layered over another Nickelback song backwards and it was the same. And it was like, that is crazy. But that’s what is being pushed to us instead of feeling through all of this and allowing yourself to actually get into it. I’m really glad that you got to the point where you were saying that the music is playing you. Because any musician that’s really been in, I don’t know, in any sort of jam session or in a live band or something, even if you’ve remotely tasted that little bit, you know that that’s a real thing. And that’s a whole different level. And you’re right, that is divine. Like you are literally in it. I’d played guitar in worship bands for the better part of a decade. And if it weren’t for music, I wouldn’t have been there. Andrew Ecker (37:54.712)Dude, it’s fast, yeah. Andrew Ecker (38:03.5)Yeah. Nick McGowan (38:03.961)I wouldn’t have ended up having a relationship with God. And I also now at this point, no, he’s not some bearded dude on a fucking chair somewhere. Like it’s much bigger than that. But being able to feel that, like there are things where you couldn’t manufacture this feeling. So I’m glad he pointed out, like if we could bottle it, that would be great. But at the same time, the rest of the world is trying to bottle fucking everything else. So I’m glad that we can’t because you need to experience that, you know? Andrew Ecker (38:12.974)Yeah Andrew Ecker (38:20.322)Yeah. Andrew Ecker (38:28.202)I know, I know. You do, Nick McGowan (38:33.743)What a cool thing, man. And I really love the work that you’re doing. I appreciate you being on with us today. For the people that are on their path towards self-mastery, what’s your advice to those people that are walking toward that? Andrew Ecker (38:45.772)You know, I think first just be gentle with yourself and just understand that, you know, loving yourself is the simplest thing. I was doing my best and you know, we man, life is rough, man. I mean, we, we lose people. go through all kinds of stuff and people used to tell me all the time, you know, Andrew, you need to love yourself, especially when I was little, you know, they would tell me this and I, I’d be like, you know, I felt like I was doing something wrong, you know, like What does that mean? And you know, it really is as simple as just saying, I was doing my best through everything, you know, through the alcoholism, through the drugs, but look at what’s going on in your life. And if it isn’t working for you, change, you know, like don’t be stuck in a pattern that is something destructive. You know, being in a place where you can manage your thoughts is a very important aspect to living your successful life. allowing for the thoughts that don’t serve you to simply fade away and sometimes to be confrontational with those thoughts. You know, I remember reading God is love and I thought if I just focus on love, maybe all these thoughts of suicide would would leave me. So every time any anxiety came into my life, I would just simply start screaming love in my mind and take control of my mind. You know, sometimes we just have to overpower those thoughts that aren’t serving us. And, you know, I think that for me, the greatest act of my own self mastery is the place of service. Being of service to others has brought me to a place where I feel the best, Andrew. And sometimes, you know, showing up isn’t easy. Sometimes it’s hard, but I think about the people that I drum with in the institutions and You know, just to give everybody a really brief story before we kind of close this up. For 10 years, I went to this skilled nursing hospital. And for 10 years, this man would come out and he was in a bed and his hands were atrophied. And I’d have to pry his fingers open and put a maraca in his hand. And he would shake the maraca and say, Hallelujah, Hallelujah. You know, and he had this great big smile on his face. Andrew Ecker (41:11.164)And this man’s name that I’m mentioning today is Vance Gribbins. And one day I came to the hospital and I said, Where’s my buddy Vance? And they told me he went home to heaven. I was like, good for him. You know, I said, How long did he live in this hospital? I’ve been coming here for 10 years. And they said he lived in that hospital for 28 years. And for 28 years, man, he lived in a body that that he couldn’t feed himself, you know, and 28 years he was in a hospital bed. But every single time he had an opportunity to show up for drum circle or sing along or balloon toss or bingo, he was there. And you know, today we have people that have everything in their lives. They have money, they have beautiful homes, cars, all this stuff. And to get them to go out to, you know, an art display or to go and show up at an open mic or a drum circle. You know, it’s like the end of the world. They would rather sit in front of their TV and watch Judge Judy need potato chips. And I’m just calling people on their bullshit. You know, if we want to have a good world, we got to get out of our house. We got to connect with our neighbors. We got to say hi to people. We can’t just look down at our phone every time we see a homeless person and try to escape eye contact. You know, we need to engage with people and be the brilliance that we are. You know, the medicine that you have inside of you is a medicine that we need as a community. And that’s what this world needs right now. We need love. We need togetherness. You know, I stopped giving money to people when they would ask me for money on the street. But I immediately will say to a person, hey, can I pray for you? You know, and sometimes people will say, you know, hell no, I don’t want that. And sometimes people will say, you know what? I appreciate that. Please pray for me. And I remember one time me and Monica were in my my fiancee. We were in Salt Lake. And this guy had chains, gold chains on and he just put out a joint. I could tell he smelled like cannabis and everything. He’s like, hey, man, you got any money? I was like, no, but I could say a prayer for you. And I’m saying a prayer for this guy. And he’s like, that’s the good shit. That’s what he was saying. And you just never know how you’re going to impact somebody’s life if you make yourself available. So Nick McGowan (43:34.615)Yeah. Andrew Ecker (43:35.493)You know, want to be in the place of self mastery, be available for community. You know, get out there and do something that is just to be available. Volunteer, you know, go show up at the homeless shelter. Develop a podcast that’s giving to the community. Do something for people. You know, do something for people. And you know, you’re to find the truest truth of the truth that you are. And you’re going to make a difference in the lives of people. Nick McGowan (44:02.656)It’s hard to not clap right now and like really fucking root, you know what I mean? So thank you, dude. I appreciate that. I’ve been refraining back from the like, fuck yeah, yeah. You know, so I really appreciate it. And how that was also one of those. and by the way, one more fucking thing. Here it is. Man, that’s awesome. I think there are small things that we can do. Andrew Ecker (44:13.013)Yeah! Andrew Ecker (44:23.581)Yeah. Nick McGowan (44:32.002)to really help us be able to start down that path? Because you’re talking about a lot of things and to some people, and I try to break stuff down to like, what could anybody be thinking about being super analytical or whatever of like, man, that’s a lot of shit. And there’s like a lot of things that are going on. I’m having really hard time with this one little thing in my life right now. So taking those smaller steps, like even saying get out and do community, do community in the way that feels right for you to do. Like there are people that will go to church on Sunday and that’s my community time. And as soon as they walk out, they’re yelling at their kids, they’re hating on everybody. it’s like, you’re not really doing community at that point. And community can look different to everybody. And sometimes it’s just showing up literally in the neighborhood. And like you’re saying, and dude, I think we all do it. There are people around, look down at your phone. I do that at times where I’m lost in my own head and I’m thinking about things. I’m just… going through my phone, because I’m like, don’t want to have an interaction with somebody else. And as soon as I’m aware of that, I’m like, fucking, I gotta put my phone away. Hi, you know, like, just taking that step to get out there a little bit. You obviously love what you’re doing. And this is part of your calling and a deep purpose of yours. And I think the big thing for all of us to be able to take away from that is whatever that looks like for us, just lean into it. Just get into it a little bit more and enjoy that. And I… I love that you were talking about the amount of music and the things that go into that, like the feelings that we can get from all of that and how that opens people that haven’t been open for years and years and sometimes decades. So, Andrew, I appreciate you being on here. It’s been a pleasure having you on, man. I really appreciate it. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? Andrew Ecker (46:16.065)so yeah, drumming sounds is pretty much the easiest way there. you know, if you Google drumming sounds, it’ll pull me up, but I’d like to give everybody a free copy of my book based on the traditional introduction of my ancestors, but applicable to any sort of person. it’s just a system of self identity and you can get that at the sacred seven.com. It’ll also put you into my email list and you can find out events we’re doing music festivals, trainings, drum circles, all that stuff. Nick McGowan (46:51.511)Again, man, it’s been pleasure having you on. Thank you for your time. Andrew Ecker (46:54.273)Thank you, Nick.

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Allen visits the Faskally Safety Leadership Centre with Mark Patterson, Director of Safety, Health, and Environment at SSE, and Dermot Kerrigan, Director and Co-Founder of Active Training Team. They discuss how SSE has put over 9,000 employees and 2,000 contract partners through ATT’s innovative training program, which uses actors and realistic scenarios to create lasting behavioral change across the entire workforce chain, from executives to technicians. Reach out to SSE and ATT to learn more! Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining Light on Wind. Energy’s brightest innovators. This is the Progress Powering tomorrow. Allen Hall: Mark and Turnt. Welcome to the show. Thank you.  Mark Patterson: Thank you.  Allen Hall: We’re in Scotland, present Scotland and per Scotland, which is a place most people probably haven’t ventured to in the United States, but it is quite lovely, although chilly and rainy. It’s Scotland. We’re in December. Uh, and we’re here to take a look at the SSE Training Center. And the remarkable things that active training team is doing here, because we had seen this in Boston in a smaller format, uh, about a year ago almost now.  Dermot Kerrigan: Just Yeah,  Allen Hall: yeah. Six months  Dermot Kerrigan: ago.  Allen Hall: Yeah. Yeah. It hasn’t been that long ago. Uh, but IC was on me to say, you gotta come over. You gotta come over. You gotta see the, the whole, uh, environment where we put you into the police room and some of the things we wanna talk about, uh, because it, [00:01:00] it does play different. And you’re right, it does play different. It is very impactful. And it, and maybe we should start off first of Mark, you’re the head of basically health and safety and environment for SSE here in Perth. This is a remarkable facility. It is unlike anything I have seen in the States by far. And SSE has made the commitment to do this sort of training for. Everybody in your employment and outside of your employment, even contractors.  Mark Patterson: We have been looking at some quite basic things in safety as everybody does. And there’s a fundamental thing we want to do is get everybody home safe. And uh, it’s easier said than done because you’ve gotta get it right for every single task, every single day. And that’s a massive challenge. And we have like 15,000. 15,000 people in SSE, we probably work with about 50,000 contract [00:02:00] partners and we’re heavily dependent, uh, on get our contract partners to get our activities done. And they’re crucial.  Speaker: Mm-hmm.  Mark Patterson: And in that it’s one community and we need to make sure everybody there gets home safe. And that’s what drove us to think about adding more rules isn’t gonna do it. Um, you need to give people that sense of a feeling, uh, when a really serious sense of cars and then equip them with tools to, to deal with it. So. We’ve all probably seen training that gives that sense of doom and dread when something goes badly wrong, but actually that needs to be. Coupled with something which is quite powerful, is what are the tools that help people have the conversations that gets everybody home safe. So kind of trying to do two things.  Allen Hall: Well, SSC is involved in a number of large projects. You have three offshore wind farms, about a more than a thousand turbines right now. Wind turbines onshore, offshore, and those offshore projects are not easy. There’s a lot of complexity to them.  Mark Patterson: Absolutely. So look, I I think [00:03:00] that’s, that’s something that. You’ve gotta partner with the right people. If you wanna be successful, you need to make it easy for people to do the right thing. Yeah, as best you possibly can. You need to partner with the right people, and you need to get people that you need to have a sense that you need to keep checking that as you’re growing your business. The chinks in your armor don’t grow too. But fundamentally there’s something else, which is a sense of community. When people come together to, to do a task, there is a sense of community and people work, put a lot of discretionary effort into to get, uh, big projects done. And in that, um, it’s a sense of community and you wanna make sure everybody there gets home safe to their friends and family. ’cause if we’re all being honest about it, you know, SSE is a brilliant company. What we do is absolutely worth doing. I love SC. But I love my family a fair amount more. And if you bought into that, you probably bought into the strategy that we’re trying to adopt in terms of safety. Uh, it’s really simple messaging. Um,  Allen Hall: yeah. That, that is very clear. Yeah. And it should be [00:04:00]well communicated outside of SSEI hope because it is a tremendous, uh, value to SSE to do that. And I’m sure the employees appreciate it because you have a culture of safety. What. Trigger that. How long ago was that trigger? Is this, this is not something you thought up yesterday for sure.  Mark Patterson: No, look, this, the, the, what we’ve done in the immersive training center, um, really reinforces a lot of things that we’ve had in place for a while, and it, it takes it to the, the next level. So we’ve been working probably more than 10 years, but, uh, certainly the. Seven years we’ve been talking very much about our safety family, that’s the community and SSE with our contract partners and what we need to do. And part of that is really clear language about getting people home safe. Uh, a sense that you’ve, everybody in it that works with us has a safety license. And that license is, if it’s not safe, we don’t do it. It’s not a rural based thing. It’s how we roll. It’s part of the culture. We’d, we, uh, have a culture where, and certainly trying to instill for everybody a culture. Where [00:05:00] they’ve got that license. If, if they think something’s not right, we’ll stop the job and get it right. And even if they’re wrong, we’ll still listen to them because ultimately we need to work our way through, right? So we’ve been, we’ve thought hard about the language we wanted to use to reinforce that. So the importance of plan, scan and adapt. So planning our work well, thinking through what we need to do. Not just stopping there though, keeping scanning for what could go wrong. That sense that you can’t remember everything. So you need to have immediate corrective actions and that immediate sort of see it, sort of report it. If you see something that isn’t right, do something about it. And that sense of community caring for the community that you work with. And those are the essence of our, our language on safety and the immersive training. Uh, is not trying to shove that language down everybody’s throats again, particularly our contract partners, but it’s, it’s helping people see some really clear things. One is if a [00:06:00] really serious incident occurs at what, what it feels like here. And I’ve spent a lot of time in various industries and people are different when they’ve been on a site or involved when there’s been a really serious incident and you need to do something to. Get that sense of a feeling of what it feels like and actually make people feel slightly uncomfortable in the process. ’cause that’s part of it,  Allen Hall: right? Yes.  Mark Patterson: Because you know,  Allen Hall: you remember that.  Mark Patterson: You remember that. Yeah. We’ve had, you know, we’ve had people say, well, I felt very uncomfortable in that bit of the training. It was okay. But was, I felt very uncomfortable. And you know, we’ve talked about that a lot.  Allen Hall: Yeah.  Mark Patterson: We know you kinda should because if there’s something wrong with you, if you don’t feel uncomfortable about that. But what’s super powerful on the guys in at TT do brilliantly. Is have facilitators that allow you to have that conversation and understand what do you need to do differently? How do you influence somebody who’s more senior? How do you, how do you bring people with you so that they’re gonna [00:07:00] do what you want ’em to do after you’ve left the building? And. Just pointing the finger at people and shouting at them. Never does that. Right? Uh, rarely does that. You’ve gotta get that sense of how do you get people to have a common belief? And,  Allen Hall: and I think that’s important in the way that SSE addresses that, is that you’re not just addressing technicians, it’s the whole chain. It’s everybody is involved in this action. And you can break the link anywhere in there. I wanna get through the description of why that. Process went through ATTs head to go. We need to broaden the scope a little bit. We need to think about the full chain from the lowest entry worker just getting started to the career senior executive. Why chain them all together? Why put them in the same room together? Yeah. Why do you do that?  Dermot Kerrigan: Well, behavioral safety or behavioral base safety kind of got a bad rep because it was all about. If we could just [00:08:00] make those guys at the front line behave themselves,  Allen Hall: then everything’s fine,  Dermot Kerrigan: then everything’s fine.  Allen Hall: Yes.  Dermot Kerrigan: But actually that’s kind of a, the wrong way of thinking. It didn’t work. I, I think,  Allen Hall: yeah, it didn’t work.  Dermot Kerrigan: What the mess, the central message we’re trying to get across is that actually operational safety is not just the business of operational people. It’s everybody’s business.  Allen Hall: Right.  Dermot Kerrigan: You know? Um, and. Yeah, everybody has a role to p play in that, you know? Right. So site based teams, back office support functions, everybody has a role to play. And, you know, there’s a strand in, in this scenario where, uh, an incident takes place because people haven’t been issued with the right piece of equipment. Which is a lifting cage.  Allen Hall: Yes.  Dermot Kerrigan: And there’s a whole story about that, which goes through a procurement decision made somewhere where somebody hit a computer and a computer said no because they’d asked for too many lifting cages when they, somebody could have said, you’ve asked for five lifting cages, it’s takes you over the procurement cap. Would four do it? [00:09:00] Yes, that would be fine. That would be fine. Yeah. As it is, they come to a crucial piece of operation. This incr this, you know, this crucial piece of kit simply isn’t there. So in order to hit the deadline and try and make people happy, two ordinary guys, two technicians, put two and two together, make five, and, and one of them gets killed, you know? Yeah. So it’s, we’re, we’re trying to show that, that this isn’t just operational people. It’s everybody’s business.  Mark Patterson: Well, that’s why we worked with you in this, because, um, we saw. Why you got it in terms of that chain? Um, so in, in the scenario, it’s very clear there’s a senior exec talking to the client and actually as SSE. We’re sometimes that client, we’ve got big principal contractors that are doing our big construction activities. We’ve got a lot in renewables and onshore and offshore wind obviously, but, and the transmission business and in thermal, so, uh, and distribution. So I’ll list all our businesses and including customer’s business, but we’ve got some big project activities where we’re the client sometime we’re the principal contractor [00:10:00] ourselves. And we need to recognize that in each chain, each link in that chain, there’s a risk that we say the wrong thing, put the wrong pressure on. And I think what’s really helpful is we have in the center that sort of philosophy here that we get everybody in together mixed up. Probably at least half of our board have done this. Our executive team have all done this. Um, people are committed to it at that level, and they’re here like everybody else sitting, waiting for this thing to start. Not being quite sure what they’re gonna go through in the day. Um, and it’s actually really important you’ve got a chief exec sitting with somebody who’s, um, a scaffolder. That’s really important. ’cause the scaffolder is probably the more likely person to get hurt rather than chief exec. So actually everybody seeing what it’s like and the pressures that are under at each level is really important.  Allen Hall: SSC is such a good example for the industry. I watched you from outside in America for a long time and you just watch the things that happened. [00:11:00] Here you go. Wow. Okay. SSC is organized. They know what they’re doing, they understand what the project is, they’re going about it. Mm-hmm. Nothing is perfect, but I, I think when we watch from the United States, we see, oh, there’s order to it. There’s a reason they’re doing these things. They’re, they’re measuring what is happening. And I think that’s one of the things about at t is the results. Have been remarkable, not just here, but in several different sites, because a TT touches a lot of massive infrastructure projects in the uk and the success rate has been tremendous. Remember? You wanna just briefly talk about that?  Dermot Kerrigan: Yeah. But we, we run a number of centers. We also run mobile programs, which you got from having seen us in the States. Um, but the first, uh, center that we, we, we opened was, was called. Epic, which stood for Employers Project Induction Center, and that was the Thames Tideway Tunnel Project, which is now more or less finished. It’s completed. And that was a 10 year project, 5 billion pounds. Allen Hall: Wow.  Dermot Kerrigan: Um, [00:12:00] and you know, unfortunately the fact is on, on that kind of project, you would normally expect to hurt a number of people, sometimes fatally. That would be the expectation.  Allen Hall: Right. It’s a complicated  Dermot Kerrigan: project, statistic underground. So, you know, we, and, and of course Tide, we are very, very. Very pleased that, uh, in that 10 year span, they didn’t even have one, uh, serious life-changing injury, uh, let alone a fatality. Um, so you know that that’s, and I’m I’m not saying that what ATTs work, uh, what we do is, is, is, is directly responsible for that, but certainly Epic, they would say Tideway was the cornerstone for the safety practices, very good safety practices that they, they put out. Uh, on that project, again, as a cultural piece to do with great facilities, great leadership on the part of the, of the, of the executive teams, et cetera, and stability. It was the same ex executive team throughout that whole project, which is quite unusual.  Allen Hall: No.  Dermot Kerrigan: Yeah. [00:13:00] Um, so yeah, it, it, it seems to work, you know, uh, always in safety that the, the, the, the tricky thing is trying to prove something works because it hasn’t happened. You know?  Allen Hall: Right, right. Uh, prove the negative. Dermot Kerrigan: Yeah. Um,  Allen Hall: but in safety, that’s what you want to have happen. You, you do know, not want an outcome.  Dermot Kerrigan: No, absolutely not.  Allen Hall: No reports, nothing.  Dermot Kerrigan: No. So, you know, you have to give credit to, to organizations. Organizations like SSE. Oh, absolutely. And projects like Tideway and Sted, uh, on their horn projects. Who, who have gone down this, frankly, very left field, uh, route. We we’re, you know, it is only in the last 10 years that we’ve been doing this kind of thing, and it hasn’t, I mean, you know, Tideway certainly is now showing some results. Sure. But, you know, it’s, it’s, it, it wasn’t by any means a proven way of, of, of dealing with safety. So  Mark Patterson: I don’t think you could ever prove it. Dermot Kerrigan: No.  Mark Patterson: And actually there’s, there’s something [00:14:00]fundamentally of. It, it kind of puts a stamp on the culture that you want, either you talked about the projects in SSE, we’ve, we’ve done it for all of our operational activities, so we’ve had about 9,000 people through it for SSE and so far about 2000 contract partners. Um, we’re absolutely shifting our focus now. We’ve got probably 80% of our operational teams have been through this in each one of our businesses, and, uh, we. We probably are kind of closing the gaps at the moment, so I was in Ireland with. I here guys last week, um, doing a, a mobile session because logistically it was kind of hard to come to Perth or to one of the other centers, but we’re, we’re gradually getting up to that 80%, uh, for SSE colleagues and our focus is shifting a bit more to contract partners and making sure they get through. And look, they are super positive about this. Some of them have done that themselves and worked with a TT in the past, so they’re. Really keen to, to use the center that we have [00:15:00] here in Perth, uh, for their activities. So when, when they’re working with us, we kind of work together to, to make that happen. Um, but they can book that separately with you guys. Yeah. Uh, in, in the, uh, Fastly Center too.  Allen Hall: I think we should describe the room that we’re in right now and why this was built. This is one of three different scenes that, that each of the. Students will go through to put some realism to the scenario and the scenario, uh, a worker gets killed. This is that worker’s home? Dermot Kerrigan: Yeah. So each of the spaces that we have here that, that they denote antecedents or consequences, and this is very much consequences. Um, so the, the, the participants will be shown in here, uh, as they go around the center, uh, and there’s a scene that takes place where they meet the grown up daughter of the young fella who’s been right, who’s been, who’s been tragically killed. Uh, and she basically asks him, uh, asks [00:16:00] them what happened. And kind of crucially this as a subtext, why didn’t you do something about it?  Allen Hall: Mm-hmm.  Dermot Kerrigan: Because you were there,  Allen Hall: you saw it, why it was played out in front of you. You saw, you  Dermot Kerrigan: saw what happened. You saw this guy who was obviously fast asleep in the canteen. He was exhausted. Probably not fit for work. Um, and yet being instructed to go back out there and finish the job, um, with all the tragic consequences that happen,  Allen Hall: right?  Dermot Kerrigan: But it’s important to say, as Mark says, that. It’s not all doom and gloom. The first part of the day is all about showing them consequences. Allen Hall: Sure. It’s  Dermot Kerrigan: saying it’s a,  Allen Hall: it’s a Greek tragedy  Dermot Kerrigan: in  Allen Hall: some  Dermot Kerrigan: ways, but then saying this doesn’t have to happen. If you just very subtly influence other people’s behavior, it’s  Allen Hall: slight  Dermot Kerrigan: by thinking about how you behave and sure adapting your behavior accordingly, you can completely change the outcome. Uh, so long as I can figure out where you are coming from and where that behavior is coming from, I might be able to influence it,  Allen Hall: right. Dermot Kerrigan: And if I can, then I can stop that [00:17:00] hap from happening. And sure enough, at the end of the day, um, the last scene is that the, the, the daughter that we see in here growing up and then going back into this tragic, uh, ending, uh. She’s with her dad, then it turned out he was the one behind the camera all along. So he’s 45 years old, she’s just passed the driving test and nobody got her 21 years ago. You know,  Mark Patterson: I think there, there is, there’s a journey that you’ve gotta take people through to get to believe that. And kind of part of that journey is as, as we look around this room, um, no matter who it is, and we’ve talked to a lot of people, they’ll be looking at things in this room and think, well, yeah, I’ve got a cup like that. And yes. Yeah. When my kids were, we, we had. That play toy for the kids. Yes. So there is something that immediately hooks people and children hook  Allen Hall: people.  Mark Patterson: Absolutely. And  Allen Hall: yes,  Mark Patterson: they get to see that and understand that this is, this is, this is, could be a real thing. And also in the work site, uh, view, there’s kind of a work site, there’s a kind of a boardroom type thing [00:18:00] and you can actually see, yeah, that’s what it kind of feels like. The work sites a little bit. You know, there’s scuffs in the, on the line, on the floor because that’s what happens in work sites and there’s a sense of realism for all of this, uh, is really important.  Allen Hall: The realism is all the way down to the outfits that everybody’s worn, so they’re not clean safety gear. It’s. Dirty, worn safety gear, which is what it should be. ’cause if you’re working, that’s what it should look like. And it feels immediately real that the, the whole stage is set in a, in the canteen, I’ll call it, I don’t know, what do you call the welfare area? Yeah. Okay.  Dermot Kerrigan: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Okay. Uh, wanna use the right language here. But, uh, in the states we call it a, a break room. Uh, so you’re sitting in the break room just minding your own business and boom. An actor walks in, in full safety gear, uh, speaking Scottish very quickly, foreign American. But it’s real.  Mark Patterson: I think  Allen Hall: it feels real because you, you, I’ve been in those situations, I’ve seen that that break the,  Mark Patterson: the language is real and, uh, [00:19:00] perhaps not all, uh, completely podcast suitable. Um, but when you look at it, the feedback we’ve got from, from people who are closer to the tools and at all levels, in fact is, yeah. This feels real. It’s a credible scenario and uh, you get people who. I do not want to be in a safety training for an entire day. Um, and they’re saying arms folded at the start of the day and within a very short period of time, they are absolutely watching what the heck’s going on here. Yes. To understand what’s happening, what’s going on. I don’t understand. And actually it’s exactly as you say, those subtle things that you, not just giving people that experience, but the subtle things you can nudge people on to. There’s some great examples of how do you nudge people, how do you give feedback? And we had some real examples where people have come back to us and said even things to do with their home life. We were down in London one day, um, and I was sitting in on the training and one of the guys said, God, you’ve just taught me something about how I can give feedback to people in a really impactful [00:20:00] way. So you, so you explain the behavior you see, which is just the truth of what the behavior is. This is what I saw you do, this is what happened, but actually the impact that that has. How that individual feels about it. And the example that they used was, it was something to do with their son and how their son was behaving and interacting. And he said, do you know what? I’ve struggled to get my son to toe the line to, to look after his mom in the right way. I’m gonna stop on the way home and I’m gonna have a conversation with him. And I think if I. Keep yourself cool and calm and go through those steps. I think I can have a completely different conversation. And that was a great example. Nothing to do with work, but it made a big difference to that guy. But all those work conversations where you could just subtly change your tone. Wind yourself back, stay cool and calm and do something slightly different. And I think that those, those things absolutely make a difference,  Allen Hall: which is hard to do in the moment. I think that’s what the a TT training does make you think of the re the first reaction, [00:21:00] which is the impulsive reaction. We gotta get this job done. This has gotta be done. Now I don’t have the right safety gear. We’ll, we’ll just do it anyway to, alright, slow. Just take a breather for a second. Think about what the consequences of this is. And is it worth it at the end of the day? Is it worth it? And I think that’s the, the reaction you want to draw out of people. But it’s hard to do that in a video presentation or  Dermot Kerrigan: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Those things just  Dermot Kerrigan: don’t need to practice.  Allen Hall: Yeah. It doesn’t stick in your brain.  Dermot Kerrigan: You need to give it a go And to see, right. To see how to see it happen. And, and the actors are very good. They’re good if they, you know. What, whatever you give them, they will react to.  Mark Patterson: They do. That’s one of the really powerful things. You’ve got the incident itself, then you’ve got the UNP of what happened, and then you’ve got specific, uh, tools and techniques and what’s really good is. Even people who are not wildly enthusiastic at the start of the day of getting, being interactive in, in, in a session, they do throw themselves into it ’cause they recognize they’ve been through [00:22:00] something. It’s a common sense of community in the room.  Dermot Kerrigan: Right.  Mark Patterson: And they have a bit of fun with it. And it is fun. Yeah. You know, people say they enjoy the day. Um, they, they, they recognize that it’s challenged them a little bit and they kinda like that, but they also get the opportunity to test themselves. And that testing is really important in terms of, sure. Well, how do you challenge somebody you don’t know and you just walking past and you see something? How do you have that conversation in a way that just gets to that adult To adult communication? Yeah. And actually gets the results that you need. And being high handed about it and saying, well, those are the rules, or, I’m really important, just do it. That doesn’t give us a sustained improvement.  Dermot Kerrigan: PE people are frightened of failure, you know? Sure. They’re frightened of getting things wrong, so give ’em a space where they, where actually just fall flat in your face. Come back up again and try again. You know, give it a go. And, because no one’s, this is a safe space, you know, unlike in the real world,  Allen Hall: right?  Dermot Kerrigan: This is as near to the real world as you want to get. It’s pretty real. It’s safe, you know, uh, it’s that Samuel Beckett thing, you know, fail again, [00:23:00] fail better,  Allen Hall: right?  Mark Patterson: But there’s, there’s a really good thing actually because people, when they practice that they realize. Yeah, it’s not straightforward going up and having a conversation with somebody about something they’re doing that could be done better. And actually that helps in a way because it probably makes people a little bit more generous when somebody challenges them on how they’re approaching something. Even if somebody challenges you in a bit of a cat handed way, um, then you can just probably take a breath and think this. This, this guy’s probably just trying to have a conversation with me,  Allen Hall: right. Mark Patterson: So that I get home to my family.  Allen Hall: Right.  Mark Patterson: It’s hard to get annoyed when you get that mindset. Mindset  Allen Hall: someone’s looking after you just a little bit. Yeah. It does feel nice.  Mark Patterson: And, and even if they’re not doing it in the best way, you need to be generous with it. So there’s, there’s good learnings actually from both sides of the, the, the interaction. Allen Hall: So what’s next for SSE and at t? You’ve put so many people through this project in, in the program and it has. Drawn great results.  Mark Patterson: Yeah.  Allen Hall: [00:24:00] How do you, what do you think of next?  Mark Patterson: So what’s next? Yeah, I guess, uh, probably the best is next to come. Next to come. We, I think there’s a lot more that we can do with this. So part of what we’ve done here is establish with a big community of people, a common sense of what we’re doing. And I think we’ve got an opportunity to continue with that. We’ve got, um, fortunate to be in a position where we’ve got a good level of growth in the business.  Allen Hall: Yes,  Mark Patterson: we do. Um, there’s a lot going on and so there’s always a flow of new people into an organization, and if people, you know, the theory of this stuff better than I do, would say that you need to maintain a, a sense of community that’s kind of more than 80%. If you want a certain group of people to act in a certain way, you need about 80% of the people plus to act in that way, and then it’ll sustain. But if it starts. To drift so that only 20% of people are acting a certain way, then that is gonna ex extinguish that elements of the culture. So we need to keep topping up our Sure, okay. Our, our [00:25:00] immersive training with people, and we’re also then thinking about the contract partners that we have and also leaving a bit of a legacy. For the communities in Scotland, because we’ve got a center that we’re gonna be using a little bit less because we’ve fortunate to get the bulk of our people in SSE through, uh, we’re working with contract partners. They probably want to use it for. For their own purposes and also other community groups. So we’ve had all kinds of people from all these different companies here. We’ve had the Scottish first Minister here, we’ve had loads of people who’ve been really quite interested to see what we’re doing. And as a result of that, they’ve started to, uh, to, to step their way through doing something different themselves. So,  Allen Hall: so that may change the, the future of at t also. And in terms of the slight approach, the scenarios they’re in. The culture changes, right? Yeah. Everybody changes. You don’t wanna be stuck in time.  Dermot Kerrigan: No, absolutely.  Allen Hall: That’s one thing at t is not,  Dermot Kerrigan: no, it’s not  Allen Hall: stuck in time.  Dermot Kerrigan: But, uh, I mean, you know, we first started out with the centers, uh, accommodating project. Yeah. So this would [00:26:00] be an induction space. You might have guys who were gonna work on a project for two weeks, other guys who were gonna work on it for six months. They wanted to put them through the same experience. Mm. So that when they weren’t on site. That they could say, refer back to the, the, the, the induction and say, well, why ask me to do that? You know, we, we, we both have that experience, so I’m gonna challenge you and you’re gonna accept challenge, et cetera. So it was always gonna be a short, sharp shock. But actually, if you’re working with an organization, you don’t necessarily have to take that approach. You could put people through a little bit of, of, of, of the training, give ’em a chance to practice, give ’em a chance to reflect, and then go on to the next stage. Um. So it, it becomes more of a, a journey rather than a single hard, a single event experience. Yeah. You don’t learn to drive in a day really, do you? You know, you have to, well, I do transfer it to your right brain and practice, you know?  Allen Hall: Right. The more times you see an experience that the more it’s memorable and especially with the, the training on how to work with others.[00:27:00] A refresh of that is always good.  Dermot Kerrigan: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Pressure changes people and I think it’s always time to reflect and go back to what the culture is of SSE That’s important. So this, this has been fantastic and I, I have to. Thank SSC and a TT for allowing us to be here today. It was quite the journey to get here, but it’s been really enlightening. Uh, and I, I think we’ve been an advocate of a TT and the training techniques that SSC uses. For well over a year. And everybody we run into, and in organizations, particularly in win, we say, you, you gotta call a TT, you gotta reach out because they’re doing things right. They’re gonna change your safety culture, they’re gonna change the way you work as an organization. That takes time. That message takes time. But I do think they need to be reaching out and dermo. How do they do that? How do, how do they reach att?  Dermot Kerrigan: Uh, they contact me or they contact att. So info at Active Trading Team, us.  Allen Hall: Us. [00:28:00] There you go.  Dermot Kerrigan: or.co uk. There you go. If you’re on the other side of the pond. Yeah. Allen Hall: Yes. And Mark, because you just established such a successful safety program, I’m sure people want to reach out and ask, and hopefully a lot of our US and Australian and Canadian to listen to this podcast. We’ll reach out and, and talk to you about how, what you have set up here, how do they get ahold of you? Mark Patterson: I’ll give you a link that you can access in the podcast, if that. Great. And uh, look. The, the risk of putting yourself out there and talking about this sort of thing is you sometimes give the impression you’ve got everything sorted and we certainly don’t in SSE. And if the second you think you’ve got everything nailed in terms of safety in your approach, then, then you don’t. Um, so we’ve got a lot left to do. Um, but I think this particular thing has made a difference to our colleagues and, and contract partners and just getting them home safe.  Allen Hall: Yes. Yes, so thank you. Just both of you. Mark Dermott, thank you so much for being on the podcast. We appreciate both [00:29:00] of you and yeah, I’d love to attend this again, this is. Excellent, excellent training. Thanks, Alan. Thanks.

Today we had the pleasure of hosting Dr. Mike Laufer, Co-Founder and CEO of Kairos Power, for a robust nuclear-focused discussion. Kairos recently marked its nine-year anniversary and has grown to 500+ employees across its headquarters in Alameda, CA, its manufacturing development campus in Albuquerque, NM, and its Hermes Demonstration Reactor Campus in Oak Ridge, TN. Kairos is developing its fluoride salt-cooled high-temperature reactor (KP-FHR), which pairs TRISO pebble fuel with a low-pressure molten-salt coolant (“Flibe”) and is designed for modular deployment, including a two-reactor/one-turbine configuration delivering up to ~150 MWe. The company's Oak Ridge program includes Hermes 1, the first non-water-cooled reactor to receive an NRC construction permit, and Hermes 2, a commercial-scale demonstration plant intended to supply electricity to the grid. Mike earned his Ph.D. in Nuclear Engineering from the University of California, Berkeley, and his undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering from Stanford University. His research included work in reactor safety, design, licensing, and code validation for advanced non-light water reactors. We were thrilled to visit with Mike. In our conversation, Mike shares the early vision behind Kairos, the company's focus on U.S. electricity markets and building a reactor that can compete on cost, and their strategy centered on iterative hardware demonstrations and vertical integration. We discuss system-level parallelization, developing upstream/downstream “balance-of-plant” elements alongside reactor work to compress timelines and de-risk full-system integration, NRC engagement dating back to 2018, safety case fundamentals, sizing and product configuration, and how the Google partnership supports a sequence of deployments toward ~500 MW by 2035 (Google announcement linked here). Mike offers a realistic view of the nuclear learning curve and what it takes to drive down cost and schedule uncertainty over successive projects, how Kairos structured the Google deployment pathway, and the importance of setting achievable targets. We touch on how SMR winners and losers will be determined by project execution and delivery, not announcements, and Mike highlights common pitfalls in the conventional U.S. nuclear project model, including fragmented roles and misaligned incentives. We discuss Kairos's centralized “hub” model with clear decision-making authority, its approach to validating partners and execution steps at smaller scale before taking on multi-billion-dollar FOAK risk, and how the organization maintains efficiency by balancing multiple deliverables and hiring “wildly competent” people comfortable with ambiguity. We also cover how commodity inflation and supply-chain depth affect planning, Kairos's focus on strategic supplier partnerships, particularly in steel, concrete, and precast concrete, the importance of public trust and earning long-term community support, how non-nuclear test systems build real operating capability and flexible operating models, how AI may eventually improve execution and reliability, and much more. We're very grateful to Mike for sharing his time and expertise with us. Mike Bradley kicked off the show by noting that the 10-year U.S. bond yield appears to have temporarily stabilized around 4.2% and is awaiting Wednesday's FOMC rate decision. Most expect the Fed to leave interest rates unchanged, though volatility could ensue if they don't! On the crude oil front, WTI price has inched up to $62/bbl amid continued bearishness in financial contract length and recent severe winter weather. There's speculation that this Polar Vortex (which we've dubbed the “Polar Pig”) has reduced U.S. oil production by ~1.5mmbpd. On the natural gas front, the Polar Pig has spiked prompt U.S. natural gas price to ~$6/MM

One of the biggest risks people face when trying to understand the economy, investing, or personal finance isn't a lack of information. It's the illusion of being informed—while quietly limiting the sources that shape your thinking. We live in a world where information is everywhere. Podcasts, X threads, YouTube clips, newsletters, reels. But abundance doesn't equal diversity. In fact, the algorithms behind social media are designed to do the opposite: they show you more of what you already agree with. Over time, your worldview narrows—not because you chose it to, but because it was curated for you. I noticed this years ago when I started listening to alternative asset podcasts. At first, it felt refreshing—new ideas, new language, new opportunities outside the mainstream. But after a while, something became obvious. Many of these shows were operating inside an echo chamber. Different hosts. Same conclusions. Same narratives. Same villains. Same heroes. It was as if they were all listening to one another and simply regurgitating the same ideas, reinforcing them in a closed loop until they felt like truth. And to be fair—knowing many of these hosts personally—that's often the business model. Audience reinforcement is rewarded. Dissent is not. Ever since then, I've made a conscious effort to study people I don't naturally agree with. Not because I want to adopt their views—but because I want to stress-test my own. This matters more now than ever because social media accelerates groupthink at scale. When an idea gains traction online, disagreement quickly becomes social friction. It's easier to conform, retweet, and nod along than to pause and ask, “What if this is wrong?” I once had a conversation with Robert Kiyosaki where he told me he actually gets worried when everyone in the room agrees about the economy. When viewpoints converge too neatly, it's usually a sign that critical thinking has been replaced by consensus comfort—and that's exactly where blindsides are born. If your goal is to get closer to the truth, you must seek out opinions that challenge your own. That includes people you disagree with—especially people you disagree with. Truth doesn't emerge from unanimity. It emerges from tension. And that applies to me as well. Daon't let me—or anyone else—be your sole source of information. No matter how much you trust someone, outsourcing your thinking is always a risk. I can tell you from personal experience that in economics and personal finance, narrow perspectives lead to surprises you only recognize in hindsight. Those are the moments people regret most—not because they lacked intelligence, but because they lacked perspective. Financial education is critical. But a real curriculum doesn't just confirm what you already believe. It exposes you to competing frameworks, conflicting data, and uncomfortable questions—and forces you to think for yourself. That's how you build conviction that actually holds up when the world changes. This week's episode of Wealth Formula Podcast examines this groupthink problem on a broader scale throughout society with an author who wrote a bestseller on our inherent appetite for misinformation. It's a fascinating conversation that will surely get you thinking about the way you view the world. Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript was generated by AI and may not be 100% accurate. If you notice any errors or corrections, please email us at phil@wealthformula.com.  You can imagine people who are conflict avoidant, probably not so likely to post online, as opposed to people who are conflict approaching who love a fight, right? If that’s, if those are the folks who are more likely to post, that’s gonna shape our information space in really, really important ways. Welcome everybody. This is Buck Joffrey with the Wealth Formula Podcast. Coming to you from Montecito, California today. Uh, wanna remind you before we begin, there is a website associated with this podcast called wealthformula.com. That’s where you go if you wanna get more involved with, uh, the show, with the community, uh, specifically, um, if you are interested. There is a sign up there for something called investor club, which if you aren’t a credit investor, you sign up basically, uh, you, uh, get onboarded and then you can see potential deal flow that’s not available to the public. And, uh, lots of things going on in there. Real estate, we’ve had stuff in the aircraft spaced, um, interesting stuff. You should check it out for sure. If you are, uh, enter credit investor. And again, that is wealthformula.com. Just click on investor Club. Now today, let’s talk a little bit of, you know, just let’s talk a little bit about one of the biggest risks that people face when trying to understand the economy of investing personal finance. It’s not lack of information, right? These days, there’s an enormous amount of information. It’s just the illusion of being informed while quietly limiting the sources that shape your thinking in the first place. So we live in this world. I live in this world too, where information is everywhere. You got podcasts, you got X, you got YouTube newsletters, reels, random emails. Abundance of information doesn’t really equal diversity. In fact, the algorithms behind social media are designed to do the opposite. They just show you more of what you already agree with, and that is a little bit of a problem because over time your worldview really starts to narrow. And not because you chose to narrow it necessarily, but because it was curated for you. You know, I noticed this myself, uh, several years ago when I started listening to podcasts like my own. Even before I started my podcast. And what happens is that you get, initially you get kind of interested ’cause the stuff resonates with you. You get some ideas, you get new language, new opportunities outside the mainstream. But after a while you start to realize, or I start to realize that, you know, these shows were sort of operating inside of an echo chamber. They’re saying the same thing, different house, same conclusions, same narratives, villain. Same heroes, you know, it was as, again, it was as if they were all listening to one another and, and simply regurgitating the same ideas and reinforcing them, uh, in a, in a closed loop. Um, and when you do that, it starts to feel like truth. And to be fair, knowing many of these hosts personally, that is kind of the business model. You know, audience reinforcement is rewarded, descent is not so ever since then. You know, I’ve actually made a conscious effort to study people. I don’t, uh, naturally agree with. I actually don’t listen to any other personal finance podcasts, uh, that are sort of in this alternative space because I already know kind of what our narratives are. I wanna know what others think. I wanna, uh, I, it’s not necessarily that I’m looking to adopt their views, but because I wanna kind of, you know, challenge my own and this matters more now than ever. Again, because of social media. How that accelerates group think at scale. You know, when an idea gains traction online, um, you know, disagreement quickly becomes social friction. Now I think the thing to do is, you know, always be questioning yourself and asking the question really, what if I’m wrong? What if this narrative is wrong? And it reminds me actually once, uh, you know, I’ve had a chance to spend a little time with Robert Kiyosaki. Period, uh, different, different times, and I still. Kind of consider him a mentor. And I remember being at a table with him, a bunch of people talking about, you know, where the, where the economy was, what’s going on. And he looked at me and he says, this is what gets me nervous. I said, what, what gets you nervous? And he says, everyone here, everyone here, even people who normally disagree with one another, are agreeing with each other. Uh, the point is that when some of these, you know, viewpoints converge too neatly. Uh, it’s usually a sign, uh, that, you know, that critical thinking has kind of been replaced, and that’s exactly where you start to get blindside and where, you know, there’s a danger there that there’s something that no one’s, no one else has really even mentioning anymore. So if your goal is to get closer to the truth, you actually have to seek out opinions that challenge your own, and that includes. People you disagree with, especially people you disagree with. Because you know, truth doesn’t really emerge from unanimous thought. It emerges from sort of that tension and challenging, and that applies to me as well. You know, if I’m the only personal finance podcast you listen to, you probably shouldn’t be because I have, you know, made my own conclusions based on what I’m thinking and what I’m listening to. I try to get people. Um, you know, from different spaces talking about stuff, but the reality is that, you know, everyone’s biased. I’m biased too. So, um, you know, I can tell you from personal experience, uh, that in economics and in personal finance, the problem is that when you have these narrow perspectives, um, they often lead to. To prizes. Uh, you can’t, you know, they only recognize in hindsight, and those, uh, those are the moments that most people, I think, regret more than anything. Not because they lacked intelligence necessarily, but they lacked perspective, right? Listen, financial education is critical and we, we know that that’s the point of doing the show in the first place, but, you know, any real curriculum is, isn’t there, just to confirm what you already believe. I, I, if you, it should expose some competing frameworks. And, you know, different questions or different takes on things and, and that’s how you know, if you listen to those and you listen to those arguments, that’s how you can really build conviction that you can stand behind. And even if you’re wrong, you say, yeah, you know, I heard the other argument too. I didn’t buy it, but I guess I was wrong. Believe me, I’ve been wrong, uh, more than once myself. So the reason I bring that all up is because this week’s, uh, episode of Wealth Formula podcast really examines. Greater than just the idea of, you know, personal finance and macro economics and that type of thinking, but a greater problem, which is group think in general on a broader scale throughout society. And my, uh, my guest is a, a woman who wrote a best seller on this topic. It’s fascinating stuff. I think it’ll get you think. Make sure to listen in and we’ll have that interview right after these messages. Wealth Formula banking is an ingenious concept powered by whole life insurance, but instead of acting just as a safety net, the strategy supercharges your investments. First, you create a personal financial reservoir that grows at a compounding interest rate much higher than any bank savings account. As your money accumulates, you borrow from your own. Bank to invest in other cash flowing investments. Here’s the key. Even though you’ve borrowed money at a simple interest rate, your insurance company keeps paying you compound interest on that money even though you’ve borrowed it. At result, you make money in two places at the same time. That’s why your investments get supercharged. This isn’t a new technique. It’s a refined strategy used by some of the wealthiest families in history, and it uses century old rock solid insurance companies as its backbone. Turbocharge your investments. Visit Wealth formula banking.com. Again, that’s wealthformulabanking.com. Welcome back to the show everyone. Uh, today my guest on Wealth Formula podcast is Professor Dana Young, who’s a professor of communication and political science at the University of Delaware, where her research explores how media psychology and identity shape belief systems she’s the author of Wrong, how media politics and Identity drive our appetite for misinformation and examines why people clinging to false narratives, and how understanding identity can improve persuasion. Our work helps decode the emotional and cognitive forces behind how we process risk, truth, and decision making. Welcome, professor Young. Great. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for that intro. Someone has done their homework. I like that. Well, I try to, uh, well, let’s start with this. You know, one of the central arguments, uh, that you have is that people often believe things, not because they’re true, but because those beliefs serve as an identity function. Interesting concept, which I can kind of see in, uh, when you watch TV these days, can you, can you talk a little bit about that? Sure. And, and realize this is not happening at a conscious level. This isn’t something that we are thinking about. We’re not thinking, I wanna believe things that are untrue, but make me feel like I’m a part of my team. It doesn’t work that way. It is the, the truth, value of the things that we perceive is contingent on how those beliefs serve our team. Mm-hmm. So if there are things that our team believes. Those are the things that sort of historically, based on evolutionary psychology, those are the belief systems that would’ve made us probably really good members of our, of our tribe. Mm-hmm. That would’ve, um, if we had embraced those beliefs that would have. Give an indication to the shared members of our team that we are a good team member and therefore they should protect us. They should protect me, I will protect them. There’s a reciprocity there. So that belief sharing with our teammates is something that historically has served us well. And when it comes to survival, we really prioritize our social motivations above all else, because that is such a huge predictor of what allows us to survive and thrive. Is being a part of a community. And so, yeah. So the empirical validity of those claims is a little bit beside the point. The obvious, uh, the, the things that I think about there, I guess the, the sort of analogy there is like, you know, being a a, like I’m a big football fan, right? So I’ve been a big fan of the Minnesota Vikings for my entire life, although I’ve not lived there in from, you know, three quarters of my life. I grew up as a kid and that was my team. People come in, right? People go out. They’re people who, you know, were never there at the beginning, but I still root for them. Yeah. Yeah. And I still believe in them. And so, yeah, it, it reminds me of the sort of a, uh, you know, this tribal thing you’re talking about. The other place you see it, uh, is, is in politics. Uh, you know, when I, when I think about like, the way the parties have changed without getting political at all here. The, the, there’s some very, very significant changes that have happened in the ideologies, uh, or maybe not in the ideologies, but in the actuality of these parties and what they believe. They’ve changed so much in the last 30 or 40 years, yet the same people believed, uh, or identify as those party members. Is that kind of what you’re getting at? Yes, and, and because I’m a political scientist and political communication scholar, a lot of my interest in this area was born out of my concerns about our political, the political moment that we’re in, and how we really lack. A shared reality that’s necessary for democratic governance. Um, we, and we are seeing that literally there are dozens of examples every single day of different perceptions of reality across the left and the right. And so, so that was sort of why I tried to understand this, um, in the first place. But the. What you can glean from these theoretical dynamics, um, extend far beyond politics, right? To, as you were saying, and everything from economics to health, to the environment. Um, but because the shift that I think has been most impactful in this area regarding political identity is that in the United States, the. How the parties, what the parties are made up of, who the parties are made up of has changed dramatically over the last half century. And so rather than being these sort of loose coalitions of interest groups that would kind of come together and perhaps share a platform on specific policies, the way that the parties have shifted, especially sort of after the Civil Rights Movement made it that. Individuals began to identify with political parties based on like fundamental characteristics of who they are. Things like race, religion, geography, and, and fundamental aspects of culture. And so you have two political parties that actually look very different from one another in their racial and ethnic and religious and geographic sort of composition that is not good for democracy. Because we actually do not want our political parties to map onto such primal aspects of identity. ’cause it creates sectarianism and opens the door for dehumanization and violence, all kinds of bad stuff. But it also really tends to fuel some of these identity-based processes that we’re talking about because when you look around and everyone on your, in your political party. Lives like you do. They look like you do they worship like you do? They have the same hobbies as you. They drive the same kind of car. You know, those kinds of things. Like there’s a lot of that overlap that really makes your political identity take on a life of its own, and that life is increasingly. Um, unrelated to policy and more about kind of culture and aesthetics. So all of these caricatures that we think about of the left and the right, the, there’s. Stereotypes for a reason. They exist for a reason and they are so exaggerated through as a result of this political party shift over time. And, um, uh, as I talk about in the book, these differences are also exploited by our media environment. It’s really good for targeting and target marketing to have these kinds of divisions, uh, not great for democracy. Um, but they, these identities become further exacerbated. The more media we consume that tends to play into these identities. Yeah. It, it’s interesting to me, I think sometimes when you, when you think about what people believe mm-hmm. And then, you know, and then. Identifying those beliefs with like a, a political party or something like that. It’s interesting to think of the actual identification of the party coming first. Yeah. And then the beliefs following. Based on the identification. So that’s almost like religion, right? Exactly. Exactly. Right. And that’s a lot of the, the metaphors that we’ve been drawing from in political science. A lot of political scientists have been writing about this, really drawing upon the sociology of religiosity and how it operates because it, it, you’ll notice there’s another similarity too, that people will. Have this large identity as like a Catholic, right? Like I was raised Catholic. It’s, it’s part of who I am. Now. Do I believe everything that they say at church? No, but my identity as a Catholic is still very big. I, I, I will let it drive certain things, but I’m gonna write off other things as like. Not as important as my overarching identity. In the same way that we will find people who have a Democrat or Republican identity, and they live like a Democrat. They live like a Republican. However, when it comes to their actual policy positions. They don’t necessarily agree with their party platform. And that actually is where I get a little more optimistic because even though these caricatures seem so distinct when you drill down to actual policy positions, Americans have a lot in common. Those divides are not as giant as we think they are. I’m curious in terms of understanding the United States versus other countries, um, we, we seem to have a certain polarity which. It’s relatively new. I would say that, you know, even compared to, um, being a kid in, in the eighties, um, feeling like, you know, there was these two parties, but they seemed to get along pretty well. Mm-hmm. And for the most part, they were both kind of near the center. Yeah. And, um, but there’s this, there’s a much bigger division now. Um. What, I guess what drives the, the changes and when you look at different countries, like if you can compare and contrast like Sure. Are there certain specific variables Yes. That about our culture that that makes us who we are. Yes. Yeah. So that first question, um, I, I think that what’s really important is that when you think about how our political parties used to operate, um, in the aftermath of the Civil War, the two parties. We’re kind of in agreement when it came to racial issues in a way that was not good for African Americans in this country. Once the great migration happened and you had blacks from, from former slave states moving north and west, there was real pressure on leaders in those cities to advance or civil rights. Platforms, civil rights legislation, and to advance the rights of African Americans. That really put pressure on the parties in such a way that then it was the Democratic Party who became the party of championing civil rights. Then there was a response from the Republican party that was framed in terms, right, in terms of. State’s rights. That really drove the sorting of different kinds of people into the parties. It’s also fascinating to look at how religiosity and religion. Play a role here because during this very moment under the Nixon administration, there were efforts to revoke the tax exempt status of certain Christian schools that were sort of defacto segregated schools that were in violation of the policy at the time, which was to integrate those, the school system well. Those Christian parents were very unhappy with this, you know, revoking their tax exempt status. And there was a man named Paul Wyrick who came in and said, you know what, this is a moment to really bring together these two issues regarding race and religion. And he mobilized and created a grassroots movement out of this effort to sort of like protect our schools. And that actually became the conservative group, the Heritage Foundation. So that, that bringing together sort of the, the project of evangelical Christianity with this sort of move in opposition to integration that has a long history in our country. To your second piece though, about why the United States is, is. Special. Um, one, we have our, our history of slavery is not fundamentally unique, right? There are many countries that also practice slavery. I think the role that slavery already p played in the founding of our nation was important to keep in mind in terms of how the, the issue of race played into these shifts across political parties. And two, probably the biggest thing of all is that we have a. Two party system in countries that are dealing with some of these same pressures related to race and ethnicity, immigration, right? Where you see some of this polarization happening on ideology and a lot of those places they have multi-party systems. Which play a real amazing role at buffering some of these dynamics. So it’s not black or white, yes or no left, left or right. Uh, so we are uniquely positioned to have a hell of a time with polarization. When I, um, uh, I, you already sort of referenced, um, media. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, like when you think about polarization or you think about like. Re um, sort of constantly, um, emphasizing the things that you already suggest that you believe, uh, social media in particular is, I mean, is just pounding away at that, right? Yeah. I mean, sure. I just think about like my own feed, the things that I Yeah. You know, respond to or the things that I, you know, show affirmative, uh, reactions to the next thing. You know, like on x, you know, on Twitter, which I’ve been in. You know, doing more of, that’s all I get. Right? Sure. And it’s interesting because the next thing you know, you feel like. Everybody agrees with you. Sure, sure. And you’re like, oh, this is, this is amazing. I’m so Right. Right. No one has, right. No one believes the opposite of me. Right. Yeah. And it feels amazing. What role is that playing? Uh, I guess in, in your view? Social media dynamics are, are really fascinating because let’s, let’s realize, talk for a second about why it is that a lot of the content that we’re exposed to on social media is so divisive and identity evoking. Um. The reason that that happens is because the algorithms really just want us to be more and more engaged, obviously, because the only way that they’re able to, to micro target us with ads, et cetera, is by making use of the data points, the breadcrumbs that we have left behind. The only time that we leave those data points that we leave those breadcrumbs is when we do things. So if we’re just lurkers, we are not serving them at all. If we’re just hanging out looking at stuff, if we are actively liking or doing an angry thing, or writing or sharing, that’s what they need. So the algorithm is going to prioritize the content that is sort of outrage inducing, especially because negative emotions are exceptionally sticky. And there’s been some amazing work by um, uh, Jay Van Beil and his team who studied the sort of virality of different kinds of content online. And they found that the kind of content that is especially suited to virality is content that is both moral. Emotional that makes claims about what ought to be and what ought not to be, but is also like really emotionally and effectively evocative. And the kinds of content that tends to check those boxes is the content that is identity activated. Us versus them. They are doing this awful thing to us. Our way of life is under threat. Um, they are the bad guys. We are the good guys. So that’s how that happens, right? So that’s the kind of content that tends to be privileged across these platforms. That’s a piece of the puzzle. Another piece of the puzzle is that the kinds of people who tend to produce the most content online. Are weird, uh, as someone who posts online, uh, I, I just offended myself, but that’s fine. Um, the people who post a lot online tend to be more ideologically extreme. They also tend to have certain kinds of personality traits that maybe aren’t great is some of my work is looking at the, the trait of conflict orientation. You can imagine people who are conflict avoidant. Probably not so likely to post online as opposed to people who are conflict approaching who love a fight, right? If that’s, if those are the folks who are more likely to post, that’s gonna shape our information space in really, really important ways. Well then you get responses that are much more aggressive too, right? Like sure. In either direction. Sure. Something that’s kind of lukewarm. No one really cares to respond to it. Right. That’s exactly right. And then, and then those, those particular posts are rewarded by the media companies themselves because they’re getting all sorts of attention rising the top and those influencers who getting paid for that. So yeah, I mean, that’s the thing that really, that’s where I, I, I get to the point sometimes with this work where I, I’ve, I do feel a bit demoralized because I don’t necessarily see. Where there are really empowered agents to who can work within the system, we have to try to dismantle the incentive structure. So you know, if there are entrepreneurs out there who can think about ways to incentivize different kinds of content, I applaud that kind of development there. There are some, of course, who, who do the sort of, um. Positivity posts, you know, posts for good and viral videos about people help helping other people, and there is some indication that those also, they’re people love those. Those do go viral, but they don’t have the immediacy of the outrage, I guess, that when you think about, you know. The implications of this is really just, you know, I guess polarization, maybe some misinformation. Even misinformation is difficult because Sure. You don’t even actually know what is real information anymore. You don’t have like, sure. You know, when I was a, again, going back to being a kid in the eighties, it’s like you had one set of. Set of facts, you know? That’s right. But now that’s, there’s lots of different sets of facts, and in reality it’s hard to know what’s real. You just, you know, you just, you, you believe something and the next thing you know, something comes out and it, boy, that wasn’t real at all. Um, yeah. And, and let’s just, I’ll pause you for a second because, you know, as someone who studies misinformation, I, I have been through quite a journey with how I’ve thought about digital technologies, right? Yeah. Whereas. When I first started in this field 20, 25 years ago, I really lamented the fact that there were these voices on high at the news organizations who got to gatekeeper. They were the ones who decided what was true and what was not. And because of the way that they produced the news, that tended to reinforce certain kinds of official narratives. You know, there were times when conspiracies were exposed later on, when we learned that Wow. They did not tell us the truth, right? So early on I thought, oh wow, digital technologies are gonna be revolutionary, citizen journalists and iPhones. Mm-hmm. And in 2011, we saw the Arab Spring and we watched all these, these, you know, dictatorships. Topple. And then we saw the real tide shift with misinformation, with and disinformation deliberate efforts to exploit those. The lack of gatekeepers to exploit the, the lack of professional, quote unquote truth tellers, and really just make hay of our information space. And now sometimes it’s amazing, right? Because sometimes. The official account is not true, and other times the official account not only is true, but belief in the official account is necessary for us to sort of make progress as a society, right? So. The trouble is we don’t know which time is which. Well, well that, that’s, that’s what I was gonna say. I mean, I, I used to actually kind of in my own rein, have this narrative that, you know, certain sources were true and certain not, but even, yeah. You know, even after, you know, things that happened during COVID, for example. Yeah. Um, um, you know, the Wuhan Laboratories and, and things like that, that, you know, everybody looked at as a. A conspiracy theory and all this stuff, right? A tinfoil hat theory, a tinfoil hat, and you brought it up and you were crazy and everybody, you know, and, and the next thing you know, that’s the truth. That’s what happened. Yeah. So it, I think you’d even take people, um, it, it makes people who, uh, believe in the system, not believe in the system anymore. And, and I think that’s kind of where a lot of people are headed. That’s where the huge danger is. Yeah. And, and I think one area of research that is so. That is empowering and is hopeful. I have a, a doctoral student who is doing her dissertation on this. It’s a, it’s a concept called intellectual humility, which is just the extent to which we acknowledge that our beliefs and our perceptions of the world could be wrong. And what happens is when you operate in an intellectually humble way when you have beliefs, but you also are open to the fact that new information could come in at any moment, that could tell you that the things that you thought were true are not true. When you live that way, you tend to. Be closer to empirical truth than the people who are intellectually arrogant because the people who are intellectually arrogant, they’re so sure they’re right and they’re never looking to update their views. Yeah. You know, curiously on that too, like what, what does a research show about like highly educated or quote unquote intelligent people? Are they just as vulnerable? Are they more vulnerable? Because of this. And you know, in some ways I would think they’re almost more vulnerable. Yeah. And, and I think that it depends. So when we look at individual level factors and how they interact with susceptibility to MIS and disinformation, all of these different, so there’ll be psychological traits that interact with education level, that interact with what kinds of things you then are exposed to. So it is complicated. It’s complicated. So it tends to be the case that people who are. Perhaps more educated are more likely to seek out information from more like legacy journalistic sources. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. So, and on average, those sources tend to have more things that are empirically true than if you’re just sort of like looking on the internet for whatever you can find. Um, in fact, there’s also some research that shows that the people who report, um, quote unquote doing their own research. They are statistically more likely to believe misinformation, which actually makes sense because when you think you’re doing your own research, you’re actually doing what we call selecting on the dependent variable, which is you are looking for the information that confirms what you think is true. That is just what we tend to do. Unless you’re doing a controlled experiment. Yeah. You’re not actually looking for information that contradicts your beliefs. So, you know, we do this, this is, uh, a lot of times, um, you know, we talk about, uh, personal finance and mm-hmm. And macroeconomics and stuff. How does this translate over to like, beliefs about. Economy, the, you know, ’cause these are, these are important things that, again, there is incredibly different, uh, views on. Sure. You know, um, an example now, uh, an example is that everyone, you know, whether, whatever you believe the pol policy or not, that, that, that, that tariffs were going to drive inflation, a hundred percent inflation was gonna skyrocket. The last CPI number comes under like under three right? 2.7%. Yeah. Like what, what, tell me how this all applies to that kind of news, that information. Yeah, so, so I, I’m going to make a, a couple points that I think will, will get to your question. Yeah. Because, you know, a, a lot of what I have landed on is this role of social identity, right? In shaping belief systems and. One thing that I’m sure you’re familiar with is that when the party in the White House switches overnight from Democrat to Republican, people’s perception of how the economy is doing as a function of political party flips over. So when the White House went from Biden to Trump in January, 2025, overnight, Republicans went from thinking the economy was in the trash to thinking the economy was doing excellent, and Democrats did the opposite. So is that an actual empirical observation of the world, or is that an expression of their. Perception that their team is in charge. Therefore, things must be better. Or now my team is no longer in charge, so now things must be worse. Right. That’s the big one. We see that. You know, I’m. Every election back to who, however long this has been tracked, we see this. Um, another thing that I think is interesting is in terms of people’s perceptions of whether or not the economy is good or bad, that is very much shaped by who we’re talking to and what information we’re exposed to. So this, this in invites a whole host of questions about how should elites talk about. Economic health, right? You had under Biden, Biden trying to tell people, the economy is doing really well, the economy is doing great. Look at all these metrics. The economy is doing great. And so you have Democrats saying, oh yeah, the economy is doing well, and Republicans saying, I am looking at how much things cost. I am looking at, you know, various things in my bank account. I’m gonna say the economy is not doing well. I also think that Biden is not a great president, so I tend to think that things aren’t going well when the other party’s in charge. And then you look now under Trump. Trump is in a bit of a pickle, right? Because he is saying the economy is doing well. He’s saying, look at these metrics, look at these numbers, and you have this sort of. Viral perception among people that we are in a stagnant economy. I even heard my 15-year-old, we were at Costco and we got, you know, their pizza slices are like $2. We got pizza slices and she said, well. You can get a whole dinner for $8 in this economy, Rick. I was like, what? Economy? But, but those perceptions are so, and it, it’s also very, very difficult to figure out where did that perception come from? Yeah, yeah. How do we isolate the source of that perception that this economy is, is not good. Yeah. Well then certainly like behaviors follow, right. And yeah. So I guess, yeah. I guess that’s like, I mean, I’m sure that’s a completely different thing. Like, I mean, how do, how do these, you know, different perceptions. Party based perceptions Sure. Ultimately influence the economy because of the way people think of the economy. Exactly. Right. And how, how do mm-hmm. When it comes to what have tariffs done, right? Mm-hmm. Like I’m not an economist. I do not know what tariffs have done. My understanding from my media exposure is that there are, on some certain kinds of items, prices have gone up a bit, but that some of the other. Like at the grocery store, for example, some of the price increases that we see there are not the result of tariffs. So then what are they the result of when it comes to how we attribute responsibility and blame, that is also very much shaped by our social identity. So if it helps me to think my grapes are expensive because of Donald Trump, then that’s what I’m going to think. Give us your sort of final thought here. Mm-hmm. Just in terms of, you know, what’s, what’s the learning. Here and how can we apply this to our own thinking? So, so I, I like to leave things on, on a kind of positive note because there is a lot to be concerned about in such a fractured information space. Um. One of the things that has been bringing me some, some hope that I think we could carry with us into how we think about what it is that people yearn for, what it is that people want. Even in this, this very splintered environment, I am convinced that even though all of our technology is creating atomized spaces for us to become our most exaggerated version of our self. I think what we really crave as human beings are shared experiences, opportunities for us to share experiences together, whether that be media content that we then want to talk about, whether those be events. There is a reason why football is still such a successful, um. Kind of entertainment. Right? And there’s also a reason why when there are cultural stories that allow us to all talk about them, like the couple at the cold play concert that was outed or whatever, there are reasons why those moments just catch fire. And I think it is because despite the fact that our technology platforms are trying to give us. Atomized, individualized, discreet spaces. At the end of the day, we really do want to share things with one another. Good stuff. Uh, professor Young, uh, uh, Dana Young, it, the book again is Wrong. How Media, politics and Identity Drive Our Appetite for Misinformation. Thank you so much for being on Wealth Formula Podcast. Great. Thanks so much. It was fun. We’ll be right back. You make a lot of money, but are still worried about retirement. Maybe you didn’t start earning until your thirties. Now you’re trying to catch up. Meanwhile, you’ve got a mortgage, a private school to pay for, and you feel like you’re getting further and further behind. Now, good news, if you need to catch up on retirement, check out a program put out by some of the oldest and most prestigious life insurance companies in the world. It’s called Wealth Accelerator, and it can help you amplify your returns quickly, protect your money from creditors, and provide financial protection to your family if something happens to you. The concepts here are used by some of the wealthiest families in the world, and there’s no reason why they can’t be used by you. Check it out for yourself by going to wealthformulabanking.com. Welcome back to the show everyone. Hope you enjoyed it. Again, just make sure that you are getting multiple sources of information. Whether that comes to, you know, this show really is about personal finance and macroeconomics and only politics and all that is not what I’m into, but the point is. That, uh, when it comes to, uh, when it comes to anything including personal finance and microeconomics, make sure you have multiple sources of information. Listen to the arguments and, uh, you know, make a decision that you can live with, whether you’re right or wrong. That’s it for me this week on Wealth Formula Podcast. This is Buck Joffrey signing up. 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Tiff and Monica provide exclusive, step-by-step insight into creating hiring ads that both grasp your specific practice's strengths and needs, and attract those rockstar team members you've been looking for. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back today. I think we used to call it Consultant Takeover and now it's just literally a podcast, but it's my consulting team. And gosh, I love these days. You guys get to hear me just brag about the consultant team and the Dental A Team in general. And I have one of my faves. All these women are some of my favorite human beings in life. we got to recently, we were able to spend some really good quality time together and really just.   Honestly, it was just fun. Like it wasn't even one-on-one, like getting to know each other. It was just really getting to know each other by proxy of having fun together. And if no one here listening knows, fun is one of our core values. And that is one of the core values. I don't even know. You may know this, but it was one of the core values that Kiera and I have had literally since day one. That was one that has never changed. Fun has always been there. We did have it really high. used to be our number one core value. And then we realized like,   it was setting a weird precedent. So it's not quite as high anymore, but fun is massive for us. And we really, truly believe if you're not having fun, what are you even doing? I think there's oftentimes in life that things are not necessarily quote unquote fun, but there should be some air of sprinkles on top that can make life a little bit more fun in the end. So Monica, you make podcasting fun, your way of thinking. I like following.   Monica (00:59) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (01:22) your thought process. really, it is really fun for me to follow the thought process, especially because I tend to think I'm pretty good at knowing where someone's going or what they're doing, what their intent is. Like I'm usually pretty good at keying into it, but sometimes you catch me and I'm like, dang, I love how your brain works. So I love it because you make me think a little bit harder, like a little...   more intentional, I like the word intentional. You make me think a little more intentional than I do on my day to day. So thank you for being here today, Monica, and shedding your brilliance on the Dental A Team, listeners and team. How are you this morning? It's a Monday morning for us and we're just at it bright and early. How are you?   Monica (02:09) I'm doing great, Tiff. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. You know, I think one of the things that attracted me and I was really curious about the Dental A Team was that core value of having fun because, you know, we just kind of get a little serious and boring as we become adults. And I'm like, gosh, I don't ever remember thinking like, my gosh, this work should be fun. Sometimes it is fun, but should it be fun?   And I was so curious about that. to be honest, I think I shared this. I struggled a little bit with adding the fun factor in, you know, when I think about work and in my day. And I'm so glad that I decided to join the Dental A Team because that is my core value. Every day that I wake up, I'm like, I'm going to make this so fun today. What's going to be fun about my day? And I think fun is just a mindset.   Right? Because you can do hard things. You can have hard conversations. You can have a hard day and still look for the fun and still make it fun. ⁓ So thank you. Thanks for inviting me today. This is one of my, I guess, new hobbies, newfound passions is podcasting, unscripted podcasting, ⁓ going with it. Right. And just seeing what our brains kind of like come up with. So.   The Dental A Team (03:31) Yep.   Monica (03:35) just so you all know, this is unscripted. This is ⁓ just real time and I love it. I love the authenticity of it, right? Because this is where great ideas are born with no agenda. it's, you you and I have like this really great kind of cadence and engagement. One thought leads to another. And sometimes I have to stop myself because I can see myself going down and, you know, a rabbit hole and just, you know, and so we'll...   We'll keep it short and sweet and impactful.   The Dental A Team (04:07) Awesome. I love that. Thank you. And I'm glad that you, I'm actually glad that you mentioned that I do. I do think it's important for listeners to know, like this is literally off the cuff. Uh, 99.9 % of it, have a topic and we like brainstorm for a quick minute, but really we have no idea what's going to come out of these podcasts until it's done. So it is a really magical experience. And I like it that way because I think that, like you said, there's, there's more ideas that are born in that kind of a mindset and it does, it keeps it fun.   Monica (04:12) Thank   Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (04:36) Monica, been actually, it's been really fun. From my seat, I get to see the evolution of consulting and the evolution of ⁓ your position at the, at the company. And it's, was, it was been really cool. And I think for the listeners to know the Monica that you see today has always been here, but she was more reserved. And I think that comes from, it's fair. It's fair. comes from just, like you said, the older we get, more.   we lose that like the Santa Claus effect. Like we lose that magic and the sparkles and reality sets in and we get, my boyfriend likes to call himself a realist. He's a pessimist a lot of times, but he calls himself a realist, which is fair. But we do become this like realist mindset when we're just like factual and we're like checking off the lists and we're so diligent and we tend not to laugh as much as we wanted to before. for us fun just means that   We enjoy what we're doing. We bring an element of fun to our consulting. So when we work with you guys, like we're having fun. We're enjoying what we're doing. We're laughing. We're making light of the situations that we can. And we're making massive changes with easy implementations that totally just change the game for you guys. And that to us is so much fun for us to sit back and see. We can make a millimeter tweak on something that feels so massive in your world.   and then it all falls into place. And it's just really cool. think of like the implants, know, they're tweaking, tweaking, tweaking and torquing. And you can go a millimeter too far or be a millimeter too short or be like spot on. And that's what I think of like that, that implant torque. We're not making massive adjustments, but we're making massive impacts and implant changes someone's life, but it's minimal adjustments.   Monica (06:25) Yeah.   Yeah, I think ⁓ just to add to what you said, it's really important to take some time to see through the childlike eyes, right? With awe and wonder. ⁓ think it's also important not to confuse fun with playtime, right? Because work is serious stuff, what we do, right? We can have fun and get the job done and have those really impactful days ⁓ because it is a serious   The Dental A Team (06:45) Yes.   Yes.   Monica (06:58) business, right? ⁓ And fun doesn't equal playtime. And I remember a client of mine saying, well, you know, it's all you guys sound to like fun. And I'm like, yeah, because work should be fun. What you're doing is amazing. You are helping people achieve their goals, their wellness goals, the smiles that they've wanted, maybe relieving someone out of pain and, you know, shame and everything that goes around, you know, dentistry.   The Dental A Team (07:23) Yeah.   Monica (07:28) And you're impacting, you know, your team's lives and your community's lives and your own life. And it should be fun. You should see the beauty of that, right? ⁓ So it's not all fun and games, guys. It is serious stuff. When we say fun, that means live life, you know, with joy and wonder and childlike lenses. So ⁓ if you, I think if you approach, you know, the day with that mindset,   everything is lighter, everything is ⁓ easier, right? There's a place to things and there's just, you you're operating from a heart space versus your mental space, you know?   The Dental A Team (08:08) I agree. Yeah,   I agree. I agree. And I understand that everybody's going to have a core value of fun and that's okay, too. You don't have to. You truly don't have to. And you don't have to come in in the same mindset as we do. Just know that's how we operate. And when you work with us, that's what you're getting. You're getting that fun mindset of how can we make small changes that make massive impacts. And one of those spaces, I've actually watched you, make some pretty massive impacts with a client of yours. So this is   Monica (08:17) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (08:36) This is a good topic that came up for us. We get our topics from our list and I thought this was a great one for Monica actually because you have been working with a client recently. This is on hiring and building hiring ads and I know you've got at least one and you've got multiple that are hiring, but you've got one that you've worked like literally hand in hand as though you're part of their, you are part of their team, but if your boots on the ground, part of their team because of their capacity and the type of hiring that they're doing.   We've done this with a lot of clients, especially when they're hiring like office managers, because the office manager would do the hiring, right? So when they don't, which is the situation you're in now where they don't technically have like a dedicated office manager ⁓ with enough space in their world to do the hiring, even down to writing the ads and let's face it, the dentist CEOs, it's not your forte, first of all, most of the time, and you don't have time for it either. So building that out and Monica, have...   the reason that it's applicable is you have had fun doing this with them. And there's been challenges too, but I think you've made some massive strides with them in this aspect. And the first space that you started was really learning the team, learning the practice, and writing ads that attracted the right type of people. And now you guys are in the interview process, but Monica.   From the lens of consultant working with this practice or other practices you've done as well, how do you advise them and how do you help craft those ads to speak to their needs? And everyone's so different, right? So how do you do that and what suggestions do you think people could take away from today to do that on their own as well?   Monica (10:18) Yeah, that's a great question, Tiff. And you're right, I've had a fun time ⁓ kind of wrapping my arms around this one client that does need it. I think one really important factor is like, remember who you are. Why are you great? When we are in a space of lack,   whether we're lacking appropriate team members or we're not, you know, doing what we want to do. We're not doing the dentistry that we want. We're not where we should be. ⁓ I think we go down this rabbit hole of like, and almost inertia kicks in, you know? So let's reframe that mindset. Why are you great? Why did you start this? You know, how do you measure success? So I always say great leaders at   ask great questions. ⁓ Ask yourself those questions. Why am I great? What's different about me? Do I want to be different? And if so, what makes me different? What do I do differently than my colleagues in the area? And identify who you are. What's your persona? What do patients say about you? Go to your reviews, pull up your Google reviews, do a little kind of investigative work, a self-discovery.   about your practice. What are your Google reviews? What are patients saying about you? What do you want to be known for?   The Dental A Team (11:52) Yeah, I love that. actually, Simon Sinek, I listen him a lot and he speaks about your why, right? Finding your why. And he says often, if you're trying to figure out what is your special gift, like what is your talent? What is it that you're here? What is your purpose? He says, ask your friends. Ask your friends why they are friends with you. What is it about you that your friends...   Monica (12:16) I love that.   The Dental A Team (12:19) stick around for or that they lean on you for. And I think Monica, that makes me think of the Google reviews. Like ask your patients, like why do your patients come back? Why does your team who you have currently, why are they your team? What are they speaking about you? And I think that can go twofold, right? Cause you're gonna find out some things that you may not have, that might not be super fun. It might not feel really good to hear some of the things, but those are areas that fantastic. Let's pull that into a KPI.   How can we improve that? But you're gonna hear so many things as to why people love you, why they love your practice, why you. so I love that self-discovery start. I think it's really, really massive.   Monica (12:55) Yes.   Yeah, you're absolutely right. You're gonna hear some things that you may not want to hear, but I would say approach this exercise with the mindset of gratitude. Be grateful for the feedback. Be grateful for the positive feedback and be grateful for the not so positive feedback. That's a little harder to swallow, you know? ⁓ Don't attach yourself to the outcome. Attach yourself to the process of, right? And so even when you don't have a good   The Dental A Team (13:03) Yeah.   Monica (13:29) ⁓ you know, less than favorable outcome or response or feedback. would say, thank you. Thank you for sharing that because this is how I'm going to get better. That's not how I want to be perceived. Right. Would you mind sharing more? Would you mind if I asked further questions? Right. Get curious and be grateful, grateful that people are willing to step out and be honest. Right. ⁓ it takes courage. It takes courage for that. so I always say don't.   attach yourself to the outcome, but the process of. You can learn a lot about yourself in that process and your practice. I think Google reviews are really important because it's your patient's perception of their experience, not of you per se. And it may not be your reality, but it's their reality, right? So it allows us an opportunity to dig deeper and learn more, right?   Opportunity, gratitude, what's your story? I would say start with those things, those three things, right? One of the other things that I like to do is I like to see what's out there. What are other ads that are posted in my area? What are the competitors looking for? What are they saying about their practice, right? And I put on my hat of I'm looking for a job and I am a rock star.   ⁓ whatever it is, office manager, treatment coordinator. I'm a Rockstar treatment coordinator and I am looking for my next home. What ad calls my attention? Which one am I going to click on? What ads am I scrolling through? Right? Because if you want Rockstar employees, you have to have a Rockstar ad. Right? And so if your ad is ⁓   The Dental A Team (15:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Monica (15:24) the same as the other ads, ⁓ it's gonna be about the money. So who are you? Why should a Rockstar treatment coordinator come work for you? Start with your story. What are the qualities that you're looking for? What are the qualities that you have as a practice ⁓ to offer this Rockstar candidate? So start there, who are you?   The Dental A Team (15:49) I love that.   Monica (15:54) Why should I come work for you versus come work for me, right? Flip the framework of how you're posting your ad and how you're crafting your ad.   The Dental A Team (16:02) Yeah,   yeah, I love that because it makes me think of, you know, back in the day when I was in office and writing ads, it was like, I'm putting up like, five, six, seven sentences that's like, this is what we're hiring for. I need a treatment coordinator. Like, this is what you're going to get paid and people apply and we'd get thousands of applications, you know, and it's just, it's different now because I think people are looking for a place they want to have fun. They want to enjoy their job. They want to really work for a place that they feel   Monica (16:13) Yes.   The Dental A Team (16:30) seen valued heard and they want to know what that place is before they walk in and so rather than the old model of This is what we're you know, these are all of the things we're looking for ⁓ As far as the job. I think the new model is this is who we are. This is our vision These are our core values We're looking for somebody who aligns with that and this is the job that they're gonna do and I think it's flipped so much in the last five years Realistically almost six years now, right?   that we just have to think differently and we have to speak differently.   Monica (17:01) Yeah, and social media has also changed the game, right? mean, people can get an insight of your culture and who you are just by following your page, your Instagram page or your Facebook page or going on your website. But I truly believe social media and like those quick clicks, Instagram, Facebook are the persona of your practice, right? And so you gotta make sure that that's aligned with   The Dental A Team (17:06) Absolutely.   Monica (17:29) with the ad that you're posting and the reality of a day-to-day in your practice, right? And so social media can be so impactful, like Google reviews, whatever social media you use, a lot of people have TikToks, they have other things that I don't participate in because it can get overwhelming, you know? But social media is powerful. mean, you use that as your platform, your patience.   The Dental A Team (17:51) I can.   Monica (17:57) You best believe that people are going and checking your reviews and your space, your social media space, because they want to know. They want to know, is this truly who they say they are? Because we have choices, right? And let's be honest, our phone is glued to our fingertips 24 seven, even if we don't want to, it is. And there's power in that, right? So those platforms give a visual.   The Dental A Team (18:19) Yeah.   Monica (18:27) ⁓ to anyone basically. I mean, it's a world of referral nowadays, right? So I think use that to your advantage.   The Dental A Team (18:35) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I do. I do too. I think earlier, I don't remember if it was this one or a different recording that we did, but you were speaking about, I think it was this one, being authentic. We're off the cuff here. And so being authentic in your ad and being authentic in your social presence. So what are people on the outside seeing of you is really, really huge because if you're saying you're someone and it   Monica (18:48) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (19:08) doesn't line up for you, first and foremost, the powers that you believe in are not gonna send you the people. They're not gonna come if it's not in alignment with who you are. But also, those who do come are gonna see that really easily, very quickly, and honestly, the ads usually, if we were to write an ad, if Monica wrote an ad, just blanket, wrote an ad, said, hey, five practices, you guys all use this ad. It might work for one of them because it may align closely   for one of them, but I think something you did, Monica, with this specific practice and the ones that you've worked with is you learned the practice. You actually, like you said, you put that hat on and you learned the demographics of the area and the demographics of other practices hiring, but you also learned that practice. You scoured their website, you talked to the team members, you asked them really hard questions, you scoured their reviews, you literally did your due diligence to learn who they are so that as you helped them   create the actual ad, it was speaking to them. And that authenticity really shines through. So if your social media is portraying someone that you're not, you're gonna hate it, you're gonna feel really icky, it's not gonna translate, and it's gonna make hiring really, really hard. So I think, these pieces, this introspection, this really knowing, this asking the questions, the hard questions, the easy questions, whatever you wanna call them, asking those questions and learning who you want to hire.   who you are and who you want to attract are gonna be massive pieces and really what highlights a good ad.   Monica (20:45) Yeah, I agree. And you're absolutely right. I I did a little bit of ⁓ of digging more than I than I normally would because I really want them to have the person that they deserve. And listen, sometimes we're not where we want to be. Right. So your reality right now may not be your desired space. And dream a big dream. OK, like create that that your ad can can be your future self.   The Dental A Team (20:53) Yeah.   Monica (21:14) But you need the right person to create that dream with you. So maybe you're not where you want to be or how you vision your office, but you want to get there and you're attracting, you want to attract the team members that will help you get there to that space. allow yourself to dream a big dream, be your biggest fan. I always say that, be your biggest fan, right? Fan your own flame.   The Dental A Team (21:20) Absolutely.   Monica (21:42) It takes, there's nobody else to motivate you but you. Motivation is from within, right? So yes, we have mentors and coaches and listening to them, they help us kind of reignite that flame that we all have, our internal flame, but you've got to be able to fan that flame. mean, if it's dim, you got to give it some air and some oxygen, right? And what gives us oxygen? It's all the feel good stuff.   What are my patients saying about me? Right. So one of the things that I did, cause it was, it was difficult for this client to kind of say like, gosh, what am I really great at? You know? And I'm like, well, let's go see what your patients are saying. And we pulled up some amazing reviews and here we thought like, nobody's asking for reviews. No one's giving us reviews. Well, guess what? There was some amazing reviews and I read them, you know, we, we went through the process of like, I went through the most recent ones.   The Dental A Team (22:14) Mm-hmm.   Monica (22:38) And I read this, not just one, but one that really sticks out. And I got to tell you, like, by the end of that, ⁓ reading that Google review, the doctor was sitting taller. eyes were like, there was sparkles in his eyes and, you know, his chest was out. I'm like, this is the kind of stuff that you need to be sharing on your social media stories. This is what people need to hear. He's like, wow, that's amazing. I said,   The Dental A Team (22:49) No.   Monica (23:06) print these every single day and read them to your team. Read them to yourself out loud. It feels good to know what others are seeing. We're our hardest critics sometimes. And we're not necessarily seeing the good stuff, because we're focused on all the other things that we haven't done and accomplished, but our patients see us through a different lens. And it feels great.   The Dental A Team (23:21) Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Monica (23:34) to be reminded of why you are who you are, why you have this amazing practice. you know, there's just so many things that we overlook because we're so focused on the things that we didn't do. Focus on the things that you did do great. What did I accomplish this year? If you change one life, guess what? That's amazing. You know, if you focus on changing one life at a time, at the end of the year, it's a trickling effect. I mean, you're...   The Dental A Team (23:57) Yeah, I agree.   Monica (24:05) your bowl is going to be or your cup is going to be overflowing. A thousand percent.   The Dental A Team (24:08) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. love the, ⁓ I focus on making, if I can make one person smile today, that, you know, I just want to make one person smile today. So I love this. Thank you, Monica. I knew it being so fresh, you're still in the process of helping them hire for this position, but I know it's been really, really close to your heart and you've been very intentional on getting them the results that they need and they need this hire to push for the results. I...   Monica (24:30) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (24:38) I've enjoyed watching you work with them and I know they've enjoyed working with you and will continue to enjoy working with you. You'll be hands on with them here this week. So I'm super excited for this. And Monica, think some of the pieces I've pulled out, we want those, know, actual pieces for you guys. And I think do the digging, do your research, figure out why people are referring you. Why do people want to come to you? What makes you special and different? And cultivate your ad around that plus   who it is that you want to hire and be super clear on what the position actually is. And front office reception is really hard to explain. So be super clear on what that position is, what will they actually be doing? What are your expectations so that somebody coming in can say, yes, I can do that. And Monica, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for everything you've poured into the clients that you have. But specifically today, we're talking about this one client and everything you poured into them.   Monica (25:18) Yes.   The Dental A Team (25:36) I know because I've chatted with them, I've talked with them, I know how much they appreciate it and how much they need your love and your support and your guidance. So thank you for everything you do for all of us every single day.   Monica (25:49) Thanks, Tiff. Likewise, thanks for your leadership, for your invitation, for this space where we can brainstorm and share our wisdom and ideas and impact the world of dentistry.   The Dental A Team (26:02) Yeah, in the greatest way as possible, right? I love it. That's our mission, everyone, just so you know. Thank you, Monica. And guys, I love podcasting. know that, Monica. She's a big podcast fan now. We're podcaster fan, which I appreciate and I love. So let us know what you think. Five star review below, but also Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If you have further questions, if you need help, if you need guidance, or you're really not sure how to dig in and figure this out, please just...   Monica (26:03) Hahaha   The Dental A Team (26:29) Reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We're here. A lot of those emails, most of those emails actually do get forwarded to the consultant team. So we are the ones that you're gonna be hearing from. Thanks so much and we'll catch you guys next time.   Monica (26:42) Thanks everyone.  

From snowstorms ❄️ and weekend prep

Halloween

If our storytelling allows us to build trust, build credibility, and build a bond in sales, then we’re telling the right stories. If it’s just designed to be manipulative, then save your breath. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the power of storytelling in sales. Jay, tell me a story. Jay: Listen, I am a storyteller. I love to tell stories and I like to build when I tell stories, right? This is something that I use on a regular basis when I’m talking to people. And it’s not just telling a story. I think it’s putting people in a story and what character are they in that story? And I think most people want to be the hero in their own story, right? David: They do. Which gets to the whole idea of the hero’s journey, for anyone who follows that sort of story arc. The Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell. But it’s a book and it describes essentially the plot of most of the most popular movies of all time. Jay: Yeah, David: Right. Star Wars, Rocky, anything where you’ve got this person who is initially kind of beaten down and not winning. Then they come into contact with a mentor. They learn new things and have a confrontation and it might not go well. Then they learn some more things and then eventually they come out triumphant. There’s a whole arc. And you’re right, a lot of people want to be the hero, and the challenge as a salesperson is, in our storytelling, we can’t be the hero. Mm. Right. We need to make sure that the person we’re talking to is the hero and that we are the mentor or guide. We’re not Luke Skywalker. We have to be Yoda. We have to be the one who’s helping Luke to destroy the Death Star. Jay: Yeah. This is a really hard thing, I think for a lot of people. Because we want to go in and think we’re the hero, right? I’m coming into your business. I’m going to provide something that is going to save the day, and then I’m going to walk away and you’re going to praise me and you’re going to pay me. But that’s not what really is supposed to be happening, right? It’s that I have the tools and the resources that you need to be the hero. David: Yes, and it’s easy to forget that, particularly when we’re trying to read ourselves in as the hero to each story. But one of the things that I’ve noticed in sales is that many, if not most of the very best salespeople are also the best storytellers. You can say. “Hi, do you know what time it is?” And instead of getting the time, you will get a fantastic story that might weave the time into it. Jay: Mm. David: But you’re going off in all kinds of directions, and when they do it right, it’s captivating enough that you sit there and pay attention. Jay: Yeah. But you pointed out “when you do it right.” David: Yes. Jay: Right. so let’s talk about that a little bit. Let’s talk about your feedback on doing it right. David: Well, number one, as we already touched on, it can’t just be all about you. You can’t make the story about yourself. You need to make it about them, and a lot of that upfront comes from finding out about them, which means you’re asking more questions, then you’re answering, hopefully in the early stages. Jay: Yes David: Because customers always just want to know what it’s going to cost upfront, and you don’t generally want to lead off with that. So a lot of our storytelling will actually have to come from the conversations that ensue after we’ve gathered enough information. Jay: Yeah. David: To know what those stories need to be about. If we just go in and we meet somebody for the first time and we start telling them stories, that’s probably not ideal. We need to still initially do some sort of diagnostic upfront to find out what their interests are. Now, of course, a lot of salespeople, they do the whole thing about walking into the office, looking around, oh, I see a big buck hanging up there on the, Jay: mm-hmm. David: On the wall. The person’s a hunter. You start talking to them about hunting, that type of thing. And, it’s very obvious. It works in some situations to break the ice, so you can ask the person. Because the other thing about storytelling is it doesn’t just have to be you telling stories. If you can get the prospect to be telling stories to you, then they’ll be more likely to engage in a longer conversation because most people are more interested in hearing what they have to say versus what somebody else has to say. Jay: Yeah. David: So sometimes you can just let somebody talk for a long time and they feel like they had the best conversation, even though the salesman didn’t say anything at all. Jay: Yeah, I’ve had people like look at the pictures on the wall and stuff, and that can come off as so plastic and so fake. But I do think the most important thing is to get them talking. And the more talking they do and the less talking you do, the better off those things are. If you can get them to be the storyteller and then you can help them improve that story or tell them how that story’s going to get better, that’s the zone where you want to be. David: Yeah, exactly. And I think that a good sales process does that, in the sense that when you’re leading off with intelligent, probing questions that don’t come across as intrusive -it can’t be like you’re giving them the third degree. You got a light shining in their face. Jay: Yeah. David: And you’re trying to get information out of them. It can’t be anything like that. But if you’re asking intelligent, probing questions and you’re finding out about them, they’re going to open up more. And the more they talk, the better it is for you. Another thing that a lot of salespeople do is they mistakenly ask yes or no questions. They ask binary questions instead of open-ended questions. If you ask an open-ended question, they’re likely to talk more, which is going to allow the conversation to flow a lot more organically. They can tell stories. You can then potentially tell some sort of story about something that relates to something they said. Again, keeping it focused on them and what they need and what they’re looking to do. For salespeople, case studies, testimonials, things like that can be good stories as long as they’re not just being forced down people’s throats. If somebody’s talking about a promotion that they did or something that they did in the past that worked well, then you can acknowledge that. “Wow, that’s great. That sounds like that was really amazing. We had a similar situation with a client where this happened or that happened,” and then you can relate with that story. But that also brings up another thing. If somebody tells a story, then you don’t want to try to tell a story that’s designed to sound better than theirs. Mm-hmm. Right? So you don’t want to change gears. But if you can establish some sort of comradery among them by indicating that you’ve had similar experiences, then your stories will go a lot farther. Jay: Yeah. And I think a couple things from my own experience: don’t interrupt. Don’t cut them off. Right? Let them talk. But I think where people really miss out and you know that I interview people for part of my living, right? David: Mm-hmm. Jay: And I’ve been a professional interviewer for 20 years, and I find that the key is not the initial question. Yes, ask open-ended question. That’s very, very important. But the key is always the follow-up question, and that’s where people fall down. They ask the question, they got the person talking, and then they dive into their product spiel, right? If you ask a follow-up question, it shows that you’re listening. It shows that you’re interested. And it will take you places that you never ever thought you could go. Like I have interview s where people send a list of questions and I’m like, just so you know going to ask you follow up questions and we’ll bounce around, and those kind of things. And by the time they’re done, they’re energized and they just feel so appreciated. and it’s because of active listening and good follow up questions. David: Yes. And that is so completely critical in sales. Jay: Yeah. David: People who don’t get that are at a tremendous disadvantage. You know, one of the big advantages of storytelling is that it allows you to potentially infuse emotion into an emotionless conversation. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: A lot of sales conversations are very sort of clinical and product oriented and detail oriented and price oriented, and it’s hard to get somebody into the zone. It’s hard to get them emotionally positive about the idea of buying something without being able to trigger something inside. Otherwise, it’s just a list of details and facts and specifications where if we can get them engaged with how they feel about what the product or service is going to do for them, the end result that they’re getting. What’s the thing that they want to have happen as a result of engaging in this promotion or doing whatever it is that they’re going to do? If they can tell you that and get themselves into a state of enthusiasm over your product, they’re going to be a hundred times more likely to buy it. Jay: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that the natural fallback for salespeople is to focus on specifications. You know, I’ve been there on the car lot and the guy wants to show me all the specifics and horsepower and all those things. And then I’ve had people talk about, what are my goals and focusing more on my life than on this particular one item. It really shows, you know, more caring and that they’re more interested in me. David: It does, and you also have to be aware of the person you’re talking to. Because sometimes people will hear something like that and they’re like, I don’t want to get into that. Jay: Yeah. David: Just tell me how much it costs, or whatever. Jay: Yeah. David: And for some, that might be a disqualifier, right? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: And for others you say, okay, well I’ll provide the information. I’ll see if this goes anywhere. But a lot of times when people are unwilling to communicate at a deeper level, to me it indicates they’re not a good quality prospect to be interacting with. I was talking with someone earlier today. I had a situation where they booked a strategy session call with us and like had absolutely no idea why they were calling and Jay: mm, David: And so there was a video that they went to, to watch. He hadn’t watched the video and he is, he didn’t know why he was calling. And I said, well, listen, out of respect for your time, why don’t we do this? Take a look at the video, see if it makes sense for us to have a conversation. If it does, we can go back here and regroup. And he said, okay, fine. Right. So the call was over in three or four minutes. Jay: Yeah. David: But it was respectful for both of us. It was respectful of his time. It’s respectful of mine, and I think that all sales conversations need to do that. They need to be respectful of both the prospect and the salesperson. And too often, as salespeople, we feel so sort of humbled or so disadvantaged or whatever it is. we always put the needs of the prospect first. You’ve heard the customer’s always, right. Jay: Yeah. David: Which is not always true. Jay: Agreed. David: But you want to treat them as if it is. Particularly in the early stages, until you find out that it’s not the truth. But in those situations, if you recognize that your time is just as valuable as theirs, we all have a certain number of ticks on the clock. We don’t know what that number is. We want to make sure that we’re spending our time as well as possible, as productively as possible, with the people who are on the same wavelength and who are ready to interact with us. Jay: Yeah. And that goes back to the podcast we did recently about pre-qualifying people and really finding out ahead of time if they really, you know, fit within your business model and those kind of things. But, you know, a lot of times you’re not going to know unless you just start talking to somebody and you start asking them questions and I think if you’re doing this right, it’s not going to feel plastic, it’s not going to feel fake. I have a genuine desire to learn about people and to find out about them. David: Yeah. Jay: And you know, if that’s what you’re doing, they’re going to sense that. If you’re just doing it to, okay, now let’s cut to the chase and let’s get to the details and hopefully I can sell you. They’ll sense that too, David: Right. Yeah. I think that if our storytelling allows us to build trust, Build credibility, build a bond, then we’re telling the right stories. If it’s just designed to distract and be a shiny object to try to get them to tell something. If it’s designed to be manipulative, then save your breath. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. How do people find out more, David? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call, schedule a call with myself or my team. There’s actually a video right on that page. What I would encourage you to do, it says at the top right there, before you schedule a call, watch this video. So take a look at that, get an idea of how we’re helping other people, what it does for other people. If it makes sense for you, then you can just scroll down and you can schedule a call and we can work with you essentially to find out where you are now in your business versus where you want to be. We can look at your visibility in the marketplace. How are you doing in terms of visibility, in terms of sales, in terms of profit? And just walk you through a couple of things will allow you to maybe think more clearly in terms of how you can get from where you are now to where you want to be. So it’s TopSecrets.com/call. Love to have a conversation with you. Jay: And I’m sure you’ll tell ’em a great story. David: I just might! Jay: David. It’s always a pleasure. David: Thanks Jay. Are You Ready to Tell More Stories that Lead to Sales? If so, check out a few ways we can help: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

Listen to JCO's Art of Oncology article, "A Chance to Heal with Cold Hard Steel" by Dr. Taylor Goodstein, who is a fellow at Emory University. The article is followed by an interview with Goodstein and host Dr. Mikkael Sekeres. Dr. Goodstein shares a story about surgery, grief, and being courageous in the face of one's own fallibility. TRANSCRIPT Narrator: A Chance to Heal with Cold Hard Steel, Taylor Goodstein, MD Mikkael Sekeres: Welcome back to JCO's Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology. This ASCO podcast features intimate narratives and perspectives from authors exploring their experiences in oncology. I am your host, Mikkael Sekeres. I am Professor of Medicine and Chief of the Division of Hematology at the Sylvester Comprehensive Cancer Center, University of Miami. Joining us today is Dr. Taylor Goodstein, urologic oncology fellow at Emory University and our first Narrative Medicine Contest winner, to discuss her Journal of Clinical Oncology article, "A Chance to Heal with Cold Hard Steel." Dr. Goodstein and I have agreed to address each other by first names. Taylor, thank you for contributing to the Journal of Clinical Oncology, to our contest, and for joining us to discuss your winning article. Taylor Goodstein: Thank you so much for having me. This is a great honor. Mikkael Sekeres: The honor was ours, actually. We had, if you haven't heard, a very competitive contest. We had a total of 159 entries. We went through a couple of iterations of evaluating every entry to make it to our top five, and then you were the winner. So thank you so much for contributing this outstanding essay both to our Art of Oncology Narrative Medicine Contest and also ultimately to JCO. Taylor Goodstein: Oh, thank you so much. Mikkael Sekeres: So, I was wondering if we could start by asking you to tell us something about yourself. Where are you from, and walk us through your career and how you made it to this point? Taylor Goodstein: Well, I grew up in a small town in Colorado - Glenwood Springs, Colorado. It is on the Western Slope, about 45 minutes north of Aspen. I went all the way to the east coast for college, where I ended up minoring in creative writing. So writing has been a part of my medical journey kind of throughout. I went to medical school back in Colorado at University of Colorado in Aurora, and then I did my residency training at he Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio. And now I am at Emory University for fellowship. And I have been kind of writing all throughout, trying to make sense of the various journeys we go on throughout the experiences we have with going through our medical training. Mikkael Sekeres: That is amazing, and I noticed how you emphasized the "The" in Ohio State University. Taylor Goodstein: Yes, we fought hard for that "The." Mikkael Sekeres: Right, as do we at The University of Miami. Yes. What drew you to surgery, and specifically surgical oncology? Taylor Goodstein: My dad is a surgeon. My dad is an ear, nose, and throat doctor. And I am essentially him. We are the same person, and it made him very, very happy. So when I was looking at different medical specialties, I knew I was going to do a surgical subspecialty, and that is what I was drawn to. And then I was looking for the one that felt right, ended up finding urology, and then throughout my residency journey, I really gravitated towards cancer care. I really loved the patient population taking care of cancer patients, and surgically it felt like a way that I was going to be engaged and challenged throughout my career as there is so much that is always changing in oncology, almost too fast to keep up with all of it. But that is what really, ultimately, drew me to that career path. Mikkael Sekeres: It is great that you had a role model in your dad as well to bring you into this field. Taylor Goodstein: Well, he is very disappointed that I did urology rather than ENT, and he's in private and I am going into academics, so there is plenty of room for disappointment. Mikkael Sekeres: I am sure the last thing in the world he is is disappointed in you. And I will say, so I am able to see your background here, our listeners of course are listening to a podcast and they are not. You have a very impressive bookshelf with a lot of different types of books on it. Taylor Goodstein: This is your guys' background! This was the option of one of the backgrounds I could choose for coming onto this. I didn't want to do my real background because I have a cat who is wandering around and was going to be very distracting. Mikkael Sekeres: That's funny! Taylor Goodstein: But I did like the books. The books felt like a good option for me. I do have a big bookshelf; books are very important to me. I don't do anything on Kindle. I like the paper and stuff like that, so I do have a big bookshelf. Mikkael Sekeres: There is something rewarding in the tactile feel of actually turning a page of a book. You did writing from a very early stage as well. I was an English minor undergrad and then focused on creative writing as well and continued taking creative writing courses in medical school. Were you able to continue that during medical school and then in your training? Taylor Goodstein: Yeah, I thought that is what I was going to do when I first went to college. Like, I thought I was going to be a journalist or writer of some kind, and then I think maybe the crisis of job security hit me a little bit, and then also my desire to work with my hands and work with people. I wanted something to write about, something about my life that would be very interesting to write about, and that sort of led me initially to medicine. But then yes, to answer your question, I have been participating in a lot of writing competitions, like through the AUA, the American Urological Association, they do one every year that I have been doing in residency. And then in medical school we had some electives that involved writing and medical literature that we did. There was a collection of student writings, a book that got published during my last year of medical school that I had a couple of essays in. And the journey changes over time. When you are a medical student, you are on this grand journey and you are so excited to be there, but at the same time you feel so incredibly unprepared and useless in a lot of ways. You are just this medical student. The whole medical machinery is this well-oiled cog rotating together, and you are just this wild little- by yourself just trying to fit in. And that experience really resonated with me. And then residency has its own things that you are trying to make sense of. I think it all pales in comparison to what it is like to be a new surgeon for the first time, taking not necessarily your first big case but early in your career and having complications and making difficult decisions. I think is one of the hardest things that we probably have to deal with. Mikkael Sekeres: Well, you write about this in an absolutely riveting way. When you and your attending, you are a fellow on this case with your attending, realize that in the mess of this aggressive tumor that you are trying to resect, you have removed the patient's external iliac artery and vein, you write, and I am going to quote you now to you, which is always a little awkward, but I am going to do it anyway: "It is hard to explain what it feels like. Belly drops, hands shake, lungs slow down, and heart speeds up. It takes several seconds, marked out by the beeping metronome of the patient's own heartbeat, but eventually we return to our bodies, ready to face the error we cannot undo." As a reader, you are transported with you into that moment when, oh my God, you realize what did we do in this tremendous tumor resection you were undertaking? What was going through your mind at that moment? Taylor Goodstein: This is going to sound maybe a little bit funny, but I always think about this line from Frozen 2. I don't know if you have any kids or you have seen Frozen 2. Mikkael Sekeres: I have kids, and I have seen Frozen, but I have to admit I have not seen Frozen 2, and that is obviously lacking in my library of experiences. Taylor Goodstein: Frozen 2 is incredible, way better than Frozen 1. The adult themes in Frozen 2 go above and beyond anything in Frozen 1. But they are faced with some really big challenges and one of the themes that happens in that movie is all you can do is the next right thing. And it gets said several times. I remember connecting to that when I saw the movie, and I have said it to myself so many times in the OR since. You can't go backwards, you can't change what just happened. So all you can do is the next right thing. And so I think once the shock of what had happened kind of fades, all I am thinking in my head is like, "Okay, what is the next right thing to do here?" And obviously that was calling the vascular surgeon, and thankfully he was there and able to come in and do what needed to be done to restore flow to the patient's leg. Mikkael Sekeres: It is so interesting how we are able to compartmentalize in the moment our emotions. The way you write about this and the way you express yourself in this essay, you are horrified by what has happened. This is a terrible thing, yet you are able to separate yourself from that and move forward and just do the right thing for the patient at that time and get your patient out of this and yourself out of this situation. Taylor Goodstein: I think that is honestly, and maybe not for everybody, but for me that has been one of the challenges of becoming a surgeon is learning that level of emotional control, because all you want to do is cry and scream and pull your hair out and hit your fists against the table, but you can't do that. You have to remain in charge of that ship and keep things moving forward. And it is one of those hidden skills that you have to learn when you are going to be a surgeon that you don't get taught in medical school, and you kind of learn on the job in residency, but there is not as much explicit training that goes into that level of emotional control that you have to have. And I have kind of gone on my own self-journey to get there that has been very deliberate for me. Mikkael Sekeres: That is amazing. Do you think as we progress through our careers, and I don't want to use a term that is so dismissive, but maybe I will try it anyway, that we become more nonchalant about surgeries or writing for chemotherapy or radiation therapy to deal with cancer, or is that fear, that notion of "with great power comes great responsibility," to loosely quote Spider-Man, is that always there? Do we always pause before we start the surgery, write for the chemotherapy, or write for the radiation therapy and say, "Wait a second, what am I doing here?" Taylor Goodstein: I think it is always there, and I would argue that it even grows as you get farther along in your practice and you gain this collection of experiences that you have as a surgeon where you develop complications and from that you change your practice, you change the way you operate, the way you consider certain operative characteristics. I would argue that, as time goes on, you probably get more cautious approaching surgery for patients, more cautious considering the side effects of different treatment options that people have. Mikkael Sekeres: I think that is right. There is danger in reflecting on the anecdotes of your career experience to guide future treatments, but there is also some value to remembering those times when something went wrong or when it almost went wrong and why we have to check ourselves before doing what may become routine at one point in our careers, and that routineness may be doing a surgery or writing for chemotherapy, but always remembering that there is great danger in what we are about to embark on. Taylor Goodstein: Always, yeah. Mikkael Sekeres: Taylor, what makes this story really special and one of the reasons it won our Art of Oncology Narrative Medicine Contest is just how deep you plunged into reflecting on this surgery. And you write, I am going to quote you to you again, you reflect on how people may criticize you and your attending for embarking on this surgery, but you say: "They never met him, not like you did. They did not see him buckled over in pain, desperation in his eyes. They did not hand his wife tissues or look at photos of his pregnant daughter or hear about his dream of making it to Italy one day. They did not hug his family at the end of it all and cry together as he rattled out sharp breaths. And they certainly did not know how much it meant to get two months free of pain and just enough time to meet his granddaughter." There is a hard truth you write it just perfectly, there is a hard truth to why we don't always follow CMS guidelines for not offering treatment at the end of life, isn't there? Taylor Goodstein: Yeah, it is tough. And you know, I think a lot about this because I have heard a few times to be cautious of the armchair quarterbacks, specifically when you are talking about M&Ms. It is so easy to come in at the other side of a bad outcome and talk about how you shouldn't have done this, you shouldn't have done that. And to be fair, during the M&M in question, as I think back to it, the feedback for the most part was very constructive and ways to maybe be more prepared coming into a surgery like this. Like, there were questions about whether - here at Emory, we operate over various different hospitals - of whether the hospital, it should have been done at an even different hospital was like one of the questions, that maybe had more resources. So things like that, but it is hard I think when you get that question like, maybe you shouldn't have operated. And there is- I think one of the lessons I learned here is being unresectable doesn't mean you can't resect the tumor. We say the word 'unresectable', like we obviously we resected it, but what was the cost of that, obviously? Like we can resect a lot of things, but how much collateral gets damaged in the process of doing that? However, it is a very challenging question. I mean, this guy had one option really. I mean, chemo wasn't going to work, radiation wasn't going to work, and his goals were different than our goals are necessarily when we talk about cancer care. He wanted to be free of pain, he wanted to be able to go home. He was admitted to the hospital, he was on an IV, like Dilaudid, like he could not get off of a PCA because of how much pain he was in. And he just wanted to go home and be there for the birth of his granddaughter, and that is what we tried to do for him. In which case we were successful, but in everything else, we were not. Mikkael Sekeres: And you were successful. I could imagine that when people are in pain, their immediate goal of course is to get rid of the pain. Being in pain is an awful place to be. But with the impending birth of his granddaughter, I have to imagine you realign what your goals are, and that must have been primary for him, and you got him there. Taylor Goodstein: We did. I also talked a little bit about this later on, this idea of providing peace for families. I think that there is this sense of maybe peace and acceptance that comes from having tried to do the long shot surgery, that if you had never tried, if you come to them right away and you say, "Oh, this is- I can guarantee that this isn't ultimately going to end up well," there is still like that what's going to linger in the back of their mind if it never gets attempted versus, okay, we tried, it failed, and now we can come with this almost like satisfaction or comfort knowing that we did everything we could. So I guess I think a little bit about that as well. Mikkael Sekeres: Well, I think that is a beautiful place to end this as well. There are so many factors we have to consider when we embark on this cancer journey with our patients and when we make recommendations for treatment, and it sounds like, and it is so beautifully reflected in your essay that you thought extremely holistically about this patient and what his goals were and appreciated that those goals had to be severely modified once he had his cancer diagnosis. Taylor Goodstein: I think the most important sentence is, "I still don't know what the right answer is." And I think that is important for me to end on. Mikkael Sekeres: Well, and you are still in training. I think it is so important to acknowledge that. When you are training, it is important to acknowledge it when you are at my stage of my career as well. There are still encounters where I come out and I think to myself, I am just still not 100 percent sure what the right thing to do is. But often we let our patients guide us, and we let their goals guide us, and then we know that at least it is right for that person. Taylor Goodstein: Yeah, exactly. Mikkael Sekeres: Well, it has been such a pleasure to have Dr. Taylor Goodstein, who is a fellow at Emory University, to discuss her outstanding essay, "A Chance to Heal with Cold Hard Steel." Taylor, thank you so much for submitting your entry to our first Art of Oncology Narrative Medicine Contest, for winning it, and for joining us today. Taylor Goodstein: Thank you so much for having me. Mikkael Sekeres: If you have enjoyed this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or colleague, or leave us a review. Your feedback and support help us continue to have these important conversations. If you are looking for more episodes and context, follow our show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and explore more from ASCO at asco.org/podcasts. Until next time, this has been Mikkael Sekeres for JCO Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Show Notes:   Like, share and subscribe so you never miss an episode and leave a rating or review. Guest Bio: Dr Taylor Goodstein is a Fellow at Emory University.

Heard a Pop in My Head: The Stroke Warning Sign Most People Ignore When Phat heard a pop in his head, it didn't feel dramatic. There was no collapse. No sirens. No panic. Just a strange sensation. A few minutes of numbness. Then… everything went back to normal. So he did what most people would do. He ignored it. Five days later, he was being rushed to the hospital with a hemorrhagic cerebellar stroke that nearly cost him his life. This is not a rare story. It's a dangerously misunderstood stroke warning sign and one that often gets dismissed because the symptoms disappear. When You Hear a Pop in Your Head, Your Brain Might Be Warning You “Hearing a pop in my head” isn't something doctors list neatly on posters in emergency rooms. But among stroke survivors, especially those who experienced hemorrhagic strokes, this phrase comes up more often than you'd expect. For Phat, the pop happened while stretching on a Sunday. Immediately after: His left side went numb The numbness lasted about five minutes Everything returned to “normal” No pain. No weakness. No emergency, at least that's how it felt. This is where the danger lies. Stroke Symptoms That Go Away Are Often the Most Misleading One of the most common secondary keywords people search after an experience like this is: “Stroke symptoms that go away” And for good reason. In Phat's case, the initial bleed didn't cause full collapse. It caused a slow haemorrhage, a bleed that worsened gradually over days. By Friday, the real symptoms arrived: Severe vertigo Vomiting and nausea Inability to walk Double vision after stroke onset By Sunday, his girlfriend called an ambulance despite Phat insisting he'd “sleep it off.” That delay nearly killed him. Cerebellar Stroke: Why the Symptoms Are Easy to Miss A cerebellar stroke affects balance, coordination, and vision more than speech or facial droop. That makes it harder to recognise. Common cerebellar stroke warning signs include: Sudden dizziness or vertigo Trouble walking or standing Nausea and vomiting Double vision Head pressure without sharp pain Unlike classic FAST symptoms, these can be brushed off as: Inner ear issues Migraine Muscle strain Fatigue or stress That's why “pop in head then stroke” is such a common post-diagnosis search. The Complication That Changed Everything Phat's stroke was classified as cryptogenic, meaning doctors couldn't determine the exact cause. But the consequences were severe. After repairing the bleeding vessel, his brain began to swell. Surgeons were forced to remove part of his cerebellum to relieve pressure and save his life. He woke up with: Partial paralysis Severe balance impairment Double vision Tremors Aphasia A completely altered sense of identity Recovery wasn't just physical. It was existential. The Invisible Disability No One Warns You About Today, if you met Phat, you might not realise he's a stroke survivor. That's one of the hardest parts. He still lives with: Fatigue Visual processing challenges Limited multitasking ability Balance limitations Cognitive overload This is the reality of invisible disability after stroke when you look fine, but your nervous system is working overtime just to keep up. Recovery Wasn't Linear — It Was Personal Phat describes himself as a problem solver. That mindset became his survival tool. Some of what helped: Self-directed rehabilitation (sometimes against advice) Meditation and breath-counting to calm the nervous system Vision therapy exercises to retrain eye coordination Strength and coordination training on his affected side He walked again after about a year. Returned to work after two. And continues to adapt more than four years later. Recovery didn't mean returning to the old version of himself. It meant integrating who he was with who he became. Why This Story Matters If You've Heard a Pop in Your Head This blog isn't here to scare you. It's here to clarify something crucial: If you hear a pop in your head followed by any neurological change, even if it goes away, get checked immediately. Especially if it's followed by: Numbness Vision changes Balance issues Confusion Head pressure or vertigo Stroke doesn't always announce itself loudly. Sometimes it whispers first. You're Not Alone — And Recovery Is Possible Phat now runs a platform called Hope for Stroke Survivors, sharing stories, tools, and reminders that recovery doesn't end when hospital rehab stops. If you're early in recovery, or terrified after a strange symptom, remember this: Stroke recovery is complex Timelines vary Healing continues for years You don't have to do it alone Learn more about recovery journeys and tools in Bill Gasiamis' book: The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became The Best Thing That Happened Support the podcast and community on Patreon: Patreon.com/Recoveryafterstroke “I heard a pop in my head… and because everything felt normal again, I ignored it.” Final Thought If this article helped you name something you couldn't explain before, share it with someone you love. Because sometimes, recognising a stroke doesn't start with fear. It starts with understanding. Disclaimer: This blog is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your doctor before making any changes to your health or recovery plan. “I Heard a Pop in My Head” — Phat's Cerebellar Stroke Story A pop. Five minutes of numbness. Then everything felt “normal.” Days later, Phat collapsed with a cerebellar haemorrhage. Phat Cao’s Linktree Research shortcut I use (Turnto.ai) I used Turnto.ai to find relevant papers and sources in minutes instead of hours. If you want to try it, my affiliate LINK PDF Download The Present Moment Is All We Have: You survived the stroke. Now learn how to heal from it. Highlights: 00:00 Introduction and Life Before the Stroke 01:14 The Stroke Experience 09:05 Initial Diagnosis and Recovery 13:29 Rehabilitation Journey Begins 17:44 Mental Challenges of Recovery 22:40 Identity Transformation Post-Stroke 30:57 Mindset Shifts and Control 36:39 Breath Control Techniques for Stress Relief 42:04 Managing Tremors and Physical Recovery 48:09 Growing an Online Presence and Sharing Stories 01:01:01 Understanding Stroke Recovery Transcript: Phat (00:00) on a Sunday. And then it wasn’t until I felt like severe stroke symptoms on a Friday, which was about, what is it, four or five days. And then I didn’t think I was having a stroke because I didn’t realize the details of the stroke. And so I just went about my day on that Sunday and until Friday I started getting like some BEFAST symptoms and then, you know, I tried to sleep it off it was actually just me and my girlfriend at the house and then she didn’t feel, comfortable. So then she called the ambulance, even though I told her I’ll just sleep it off. It’s okay. Introduction and Life Before the Stroke Bill Gasiamis (00:37) today’s guest is Fat Kyle, a stroke survivor who experienced something most people would brush off. He heard a pop in his head. It went away, so he kept going. Days later, his brain was bleeding. Fat story isn’t traumatic for the sake of it. It’s honest, it’s thoughtful, and it speaks directly to anyone who’s ever ignored a symptom because it didn’t last. In this conversation, we talk about delayed stroke symptoms, cerebellar hemorrhage, identity loss, invisible disability, meditation, and what it really takes to rebuild a life when your old one disappears. And if you’ve ever had that moment where you thought, was that something or nothing? This conversation really matters. Now, before we get into it, I want to briefly mention something that fits naturally with this topic. When you’re dealing with stroke, whether you’re newly affected or years into recovery, finding clear relevant information can be exhausting. research opinions, patients, stories and updates constantly coming out. And most of it isn’t written. with stroke survivors in tool I personally use and find helpful is Turn2. I like it because it cuts down the time and energy it takes to stay informed. Instead of digging through endless articles, Turn2.ai pulls together all stroke-related research updates, expert insights, and patient discussions in one place based on what you actually care about. It’s not about replacing doctors, it’s about reducing noise. when your focus, energy and capacity are limited. You’ll find the link in the description. And just to be transparent, if you choose to use my link, it helps support the podcast at no extra cost to you. All right, let’s get into Fats story. Bill Gasiamis (02:23) Phat Cao Welcome to the Phat (02:26) Hey Bill, thank you. It’s an honor to meet you. Bill Gasiamis (02:29) pleasures all mine. I pronounce that correctly? Phat (02:32) Yeah, you know you did. It’s not that complicated. Fat Cal is right. I blame my parents. Bill Gasiamis (02:39) Fair enough. that a common name in Vietnam? Phat (02:42) You know, it’s not a common name. Actually, it’s not a common Vietnamese name. But a lot of people do have fat, the first name, and then the last name people do. Some people do have it. It just happens in America, it means something else, you know, in English. Bill Gasiamis (02:58) It totally does, it sounds like I’m being mean. Phat (03:01) Yeah, I get it all the time. I’ve had to grow up like this. It’s been kind of rough. Bill Gasiamis (03:08) I hear you. Have you ever considered making a change to one of the names just for the sake of ease? Phat (03:15) Phat’s so funny. You know what? Because I wasn’t born in the US, because I live in the US. And when I got my citizenship, that was something I thought about. But then after I thought about it, I’m like, well, this is the name that was given to me. Vietnamese, it means something else. And so then I decided to keep it. Bill Gasiamis (03:33) What does it mean in Vietnamese? Phat (03:34) Phat was kind of like, means prosperity and also like high prosperity. Bill Gasiamis (03:41) Dude, that’s a cool name. Phat (03:43) Thank you, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, when I tell people, they’re like, oh wow. Bill Gasiamis (03:47) I had, ⁓ my name is not Bill, it’s Vasili. Phat’s my Greek name. My parents gave me that name when I was born. And when I had, when I turned 18 and I got my driver’s license, they asked me, because my birth certificate says Vasili, what do you wanna have on your driver’s license? And I think I made the wrong decision then. I chose Bill for the sake of ease of use. And once it’s on your driver’s license, then it goes on pretty much every other document after that. And it’s really difficult to go back and change everything. I kind of, I don’t regret it, but I love the connection to your roots, you know, with the original name that you were given. Phat (04:23) Yeah. ⁓ yeah. I get, you know what, I had that decision too, because everyone pretty much in my family, they changed their names. So, you know, when I was at that point, I decided not to. And so, hey, it is what it is. You know, I had to go through some stuff, but I think it kind of set, it created me to, you know, to kind of not care so much and just embrace my roots. Bill Gasiamis (04:59) Yeah. And with a name like prosperity, it’s probably helpful in taking, that attitude to the rest of your life, especially after a stroke, man. Phat (05:11) Yeah, yeah, definitely I had to live it, you know, but yeah. I don’t know how prosperous or how much that is since I had a stroke, but I had to live it. Bill Gasiamis (05:25) You have to adapt it somehow. So what was life like before stroke? Anyway, how did you go about your day? Phat (05:32) You know, before the stroke, was active. You know, I like to do a lot of community service. I was involved with a lot of nonprofits. You know, I felt like I did various things. You know, I went through a lot of different stages in my life, but I’ll start off coming to America here. You know, I grew up in a trailer home. My parents escaped Vietnam, took us over here. And, you know, we grew up pretty poor and so you know he’s just growing up in the US my parents didn’t know a lot of English and so that was kind of my childhood. But just growing up and slowly you know learning how to adjust you know that was kind of my thing and I was trying to learn as much as I could so that way I can help my family and stuff and you know be the one to provide and stuff too and help them out for all their sacrifices. But yeah that was my life before the stroke in a nutshell. Bill Gasiamis (06:31) What kind of conditions did they escape? Phat (06:33) You know what, was towards, it was at the end of the war and so the communists had taken over. So they were fighting for the South, you know, which is allies with the U.S. and they wanted to bring us over here for freedom. Bill Gasiamis (06:48) Wow, pretty intense. old were you? Phat (06:49) Yeah. You know, I was one year, not even one years old when I got over here, but during when they escaped, they went to a refugee camp in the Philippines and that was where I was born. I also have two older sisters that were born in Vietnam, but I was the only one born in the Philippines at the refugee camp until they got, they got accepted to the U.S. and then they took our whole family over here. Bill Gasiamis (07:16) And what year was that? Phat (07:18) Phat was 1983. Bill Gasiamis (07:20) Dude, you don’t look like you were born like in 1983. You look like you were born only like in the 2000s. Phat (07:24) Hey, I appreciate it. No, I was born in 1983. So I’m 42 right now. Bill Gasiamis (07:34) Now you don’t look like you’re 42, but that’s great. Phat (07:38) I it. Yeah, you know, I had the stroke when I was 36. So it’s been about four years and seven months. I did a calculation. Bill Gasiamis (07:48) How did that come about? happened? How did you end up having a stroke? Phat (07:54) You know, as far as the stroke, I had a hemorrhagic stroke. It was actually a cerebellar stroke and the doctors could not determine exactly how it happened. And so, you know, they did some tests and stuff, but they couldn’t figure it out. So mine is considered cryptogenic. Bill Gasiamis (08:13) Defend the means. They found the bleeding blood vessel though, right? Phat (08:19) Yeah, they found a bleeding. ⁓ One of the arteries in the cerebellum was bleeding. And so it was like, I felt like a on a Sunday. And then it wasn’t until I felt like severe stroke symptoms on a Friday, which was about, what is it, four or five days. And then I didn’t think I was having a stroke because I didn’t realize the details of the stroke. Heard a Pop in My Head And so I just went about my day on that Sunday and until Friday I started getting like some BEFAST symptoms and then, you know, I tried to sleep it off and until, you know, it was actually just me and my girlfriend at the house and then she didn’t feel, you know, like comfortable. So then she called the ambulance, even though I told her I’ll just sleep it off. It’s okay. Bill Gasiamis (09:14) Did you actually hear a pop? Felt a pop? I’ve heard similar stories before. like, what was that like? Phat (09:22) Okay, you know, I did feel a pop. And then actually, when I was stretching at that time, which I don’t tell a lot of people because it sounds really funny, but I was stretching at that time and then I felt a pop. And so that’s when like part of my left side went numb. And then I was wondering if it was a stroke and I didn’t know much about strokes, right? You have your assumptions. what a stroke is and so I was like, well maybe it’s a stroke and at that time I waited about five, 10 minutes and I felt normal again. So then I just went about my day and at that time I was doing a lot of stuff so I kind of forgot about it. Which, you know, it doesn’t make sense but yeah, I forgot about it. Bill Gasiamis (10:13) Did the numbness hang around the entire five days before you got to the hospital? Phat (10:19) It did not. It only stayed for about five minutes and then it went back to normal. Bill Gasiamis (10:25) Wow. Phat would kind of distract you from thinking that there was something wrong, right? Because the numbness goes away. hear a pop, so what? Like everything’s fine. Phat (10:26) So then… Yeah. Yeah, then I should have went to the hospital and got it sort of looked into, but at that time I didn’t. And then I just continued with what I had to do and I went back to work and not realizing it was a slow bleed. You know, I think your body, now that I’m looking back, I think your body kind of fixes itself a little bit as much as it can. And then it was like, it turned into like a slow bleed until it got to a point where. Bill Gasiamis (10:50) realizing it ⁓ Phat (11:04) I was nauseous, I couldn’t walk my vertigo, I was throwing up. My eyes, I had double vision, and that’s when it really hit me. Bill Gasiamis (11:05) just being vicious. I could be little bit of wimp, I could be the longest three in the I know why. Friday would have been the worst day, was that kind of progressively getting worse as the days were passing or did it just sort of suddenly come on on Friday? Phat (11:15) Friday. It just suddenly came on on Friday. I had a lingering like small headache, but then it suddenly came on on Friday. Bill Gasiamis (11:27) Thank Hmm. And then from there, were you, let’s go to the hospital or were you trying to play it down again? Phat (11:40) I was trying to play it down until Sunday. So I was trying to sleep it off. And then, you know, by the time Sunday hit, you know, finally my girlfriend just called the ambulance and that’s when they came and then they checked me out and they found out I was having a stroke. Bill Gasiamis (11:58) I had a similar experience. I noticed, I didn’t hear anything, but I noticed numbness in my big toe, my left toe. And that was on a Friday. And then it was slowly, the numbness was spreading from my toe to my foot, to my ankle. And then by the Friday later, so seven days later, nearly eight days later, the numbness had gone down my entire left side. Phat (12:07) Mmm. Bill Gasiamis (12:27) So I was progressively getting worse every day. It was slowly creeping up as the blood vessel kept leaking. The blood clot got bigger and bigger. And my wife was telling me, you need to go to the hospital. You need to get a checked out, all that kind of stuff. I went to the chiropractor because I thought I’d done something to my back. And that’s why I had a pinched a nerve. I thought something like that. Chiropractor couldn’t find anything. I went back to the chiropractor the Friday. The chiropractor said, you need to go to the hospital because whatever’s happening to your left side is not happening because of your ⁓ back or your spine or any of that stuff. And instead of going to the hospital when he said so, I went home. My wife said, you what did he say? I told her, I told her that he said I should go to the hospital. She said, why are you at home? ⁓ I was reluctant the whole time. Like I didn’t wanna go because I had work to do, I was busy. Phat (13:13) Really? Rehabilitation Journey Begins Bill Gasiamis (13:26) It was really busy work week. We were helping out a whole bunch of clients. So yeah, it was insane, but what you’re describing that delay, the delay is very familiar. Phat (13:35) Phat’s insane. You know, that’s the first time I’ve heard someone that has a similar experience to mine and I can relate with you. You know, I was like, it’s okay. And there was a lot going on. didn’t want to, you know, delay certain things that was going on. I was in the process of closing on a house and stuff. So I’m like, okay, let’s just finish this up. You know, I didn’t want it to put me behind or nothing. Bill Gasiamis (14:01) Yeah. What kind of work were you doing? Phat (14:03) You know, I was doing engineering, so I’m an engineer for Boeing. Bill Gasiamis (14:08) Yeah, pretty intense job. Phat (14:11) Yeah, you know, I do see that, but it wasn’t because of stress. I don’t believe it was. Because I really did have a good, I feel like I did have a good balance of with my stress and also a balance of, you know, play and stuff like that too. And I felt like I was handling it okay. Bill Gasiamis (14:31) smoking, drinking, any of that kind of stuff. Phat (14:34) You know, before then I was smoking and drinking more, but I wasn’t smoking that much. Before the stroke, I probably had quit about a year before that, but I was smoking before that for about like 10 years, 15 years. Bill Gasiamis (14:41) Yeah. Yeah, again, familiar. I was 37 when I had my bleed the first time and I was also, yeah, yeah, that’s crazy. Like it happens around the same age for so many people I’ve interviewed between the age of 35 and 40 when they’ve had bleeds specifically. I don’t know why. And my, and I was smoking for, Phat (14:58) ⁓ we’re like the same age. joke, yeah. Bill Gasiamis (15:19) I was 37, so I was smoking from the age of 13 or 14 on and off. Um, I wasn’t drinking heavily, but it was drinking. But again, my thing was, um, something I was born with. was potentially going to bleed at some point. And, um, it’s just one of those things. Uh, but I think that my, uh, my lifestyle didn’t. Phat (15:36) all yours. Bill Gasiamis (15:44) It didn’t make things better. It sort of created the perfect storm for it to bleed. And that’s why since then I don’t drink and I don’t smoke 100%. You know, like I’ve just completely stopped. I have a drink maybe once a year. Phat (15:56) yeah, I’m the same way too, I just… Yeah, I get you. I was never like a heavy drinker maybe once a weekend, you know, but now I completely stop smoking or drinking. It just doesn’t interest me. Bill Gasiamis (16:09) Yeah, what were the early days like? Were you scared? Was it confusing? How do you deal with the initial diagnosis and your brain’s bleeding? Phat (16:21) Yeah, you know, in the beginning, it was a big shock. know, I think looking at me now, you know, you couldn’t tell. But, you know, I’ve built up to this point. But the biggest thing was I had complications when I had the stroke and, know, I had ⁓ my brain was swelling and so they had to do a second surgery on me to remove part of my brain. And so then that’s what left me with the, you know, disabilities and stuff, which, you know, I had most of the symptoms that most stroke survivors experience, spasticity, aphasia. I had tremors, know, partial paralysis, my balance, vision, things like that. But yeah, it was tough for sure, just coming home and at first you’re just so busy in the hospital working to regain, you know, yourself again, to rebuild yourself. But coming home, yeah, it’s just a… It hits you because you can’t do anything that you used to do. And everything changes, know, even your relationships change. Bill Gasiamis (17:22) Yeah. Which part of the brain did they take out man? And why did they need to take it out? Was it just a blood vessel that burst or? Mental Challenges of Recovery Phat (17:33) They took part of my cerebellum out and it was because after they repaired, since I had a hemorrhagic stroke, they repaired that vessel. It was, my brain started swelling and there was blood just filling up so then they had to remove part of my brain so they can allow space for it to swell up. Bill Gasiamis (17:59) Wow. Phat (18:00) Yeah, so I don’t know, you know, they decided to remove part of my brain, but it ended up working out. Actually before that, before they removed the second surgery, I was completely partially paralyzed. But in a way, since that happened, I had some movement. Bill Gasiamis (18:18) It’s just crazy, isn’t it? I had a recent brain scan where, because I’ve been having a lot of headaches and to throw caution into the wind, like they went and got me another brain scan literally about six months ago. And it was the first time I saw what my brain looks like after brain surgery. And there’s like a canal. Phat (18:37) they do. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (18:47) like a canal from my ear, that’s all, there’s like an entry wound and then there’s a line that goes in to the spot where they went and removed the blood vessel, like where the damage has caused my deficits, the ones that are still with me. And it’s just intense that you can have a little bit of your brain missing or gone or whatever removed and you’re still functioning. It is just amazing how far technology and how far Phat (19:04) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (19:17) Medicine has come. Phat (19:18) Yeah, that’s so incredible. The human body too, it makes you think about it. You know, I hear different things about, and just knowing like parts of our brain is dead, you know, and it’s able to, you know, regain different things. Neuroplasticity, right? Bill Gasiamis (19:36) Yeah. How long did it take you to get back on your feet after you realized you can’t walk? Phat (19:42) It took me about a year, but at that time I was still using a walker. Yeah, so about a year. Bill Gasiamis (19:47) And then from a walker, it become, how do you take the first steps away from a walker? What happened to allow that progression? Phat (19:57) you You know, I was told to use a cane and it would have helped me big time. But what I did was I skipped the cane and and then I use I just did it without the walker and I slowly built up built up the confidence. You kind of adjust. think each each time you transition like from one one from wheelchair to walker, you know, and then without the walker, you have to. Re-adapt the whole time and so that’s what I kind of did and it was ugly, know I fell a lot and stuff, but that’s what I did. I just kind of went for it Bill Gasiamis (20:33) So for those of you watching on YouTube, you might’ve noticed the change in scenery. That’s because the first part of the interview was recorded more than a week ago. And we had some technical difficulties because fat was in the car and we couldn’t get a decent connection. So we’re reconvening with that fat at home. Phat (20:55) Yeah, this is is better better connection Bill Gasiamis (20:58) Way better. And we finished the discussion off by me asking you a question about what you had said about how you continued your rehabilitation alone, where you were meant to be walking with the the Walker and you ditched it. And I was wondering, did your team find out that you weren’t walking with a Walker? Did they kind of like suss out that you We’re being, what’s the word, maybe a little bit risky or unsafe in the way that you were going about your rehab. Phat (21:34) Yeah, you know, I didn’t, I kind of, didn’t mention it to them really, but there was one of them that I did mention it to and she recommended I use a cane to be safe. And, you know, I did, I did say, tell her that I was trying it without it because I noticed that when I like switch like from the wheelchair in the beginning to the walker, it just like every time you switch, I noticed that you would have to adjust. so That’s the reason why I just went from the walker just to walking without a cane. Bill Gasiamis (22:08) Is it so that there’s less of an adjustment period between one thing to the next thing to the next thing was a kind of like just bypass everything in between and go straight to walking. Phat (22:18) Yeah, it was me being risky too, because I know if you fall or something, it could cause a lot of damage. But yeah, it was kind of my risk and my therapist, she wasn’t too happy about it. But I didn’t talk about it that much either. So I kind of kept it a little private too. Identity Transformation Post-Stroke Bill Gasiamis (22:40) what would you say some of the toughest challenges that you faced early on? Phat (22:44) I would say the toughest for sure is the mental and getting used to my new identity. You you come home and everything’s completely different. It kind of hits you at once. And I think, you know, living a normal life and then all of a you’re, you have a disability and you know, you can’t do the same things, you know, you could do the independence. So I think it’s all that. Bill Gasiamis (23:14) Yeah, you know, the mental, what does that mean for you? Like what is the mental challenge? Like, can you describe it? Phat (23:24) Yeah, I would say sadness. think anxiousness, fear. You don’t know what’s going to happen in your future. I think the unknown. Low energy. think those are the things that pop up in my head. Bill Gasiamis (23:45) Does it make you kind of overthink in a negative way or are you just comparing your old self to your new self? Phat (23:51) I think comparing my old self to my new self. Bill Gasiamis (23:55) Hmm. Do you reckon, do you reckon you brought some of that old self with you or is there a pause on the old self and why you’re kind of trying to work out what’s happening moving forward? Because a lot of people will talk about how, you know, their identity gets impacted, especially early on. And then sometimes down the track, when I speak to stroke survivors who are many years down the track, they might talk about how They brought some of their identity with them and then, and they’ve integrated that old identity into the new way they go about their lives. Early on is the old identity kind of far away over there and then there’s something completely different here. How did you experience it? Phat (24:44) Yeah, I think initially there were a lot of things and I wasn’t sure how to handle it. But I think throughout this time, you know, part of me has learned how to process it and resolve it and also rebuild myself. And so I think now, if anything, I take that experience to my present day to learn from and grow from. I feel like I’ve invested in myself enough to ⁓ not feel the same way, the negative things that, you know, were coming in the beginning. But now I think I’ve processed it correctly. And so I think I’m a lot better now. Bill Gasiamis (25:27) A lot of stroke survivors always often ask me for a timeline, you how long before this happened? How long before that happened? And we’re all so different, so it doesn’t really apply. But do you have a sense of the time that it took for you to integrate old self with new self? ⁓ I know you ⁓ got a substantial amount of your movement and your function back. How did you integrate? Phat (25:52) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (25:53) the two and how long did it take before you kind of felt okay with who you were. Phat (25:57) Yeah, that’s a that is a hard question to say it wasn’t like Suddenly everything was okay. It was kind of a process I think as you I mean I’m for over four and a half years now and so it was gradual but I would say initially about Two years, you know is when it took me two years to build myself up to when I could finally work again and Maybe about the two-year mark I felt like things were starting to come more together. But it was an evolution. feel like, you know, every year, every month or whatever, you learn different things. And so it’s kind of a process. Even today, you know, I’m still learning different things and, you know, it’s changing too in different ways, right? But that’s how was for me. Bill Gasiamis (26:48) Yeah. What kind of person are you? Are you like curious? Are you a problem solver? I’m very interested about kind of understanding how people come to be on my podcast. I know that there’s a portion of people who come on because they want to share their story and help connect to other people. Also share their story to help people through the early days of their own challenge. People also connect to meet me so that we can create a conversation and meet each other. Phat (26:55) You know. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (27:19) How do you go about your, what is your approach to stroke recovery about? What’s the fundamental thing that it’s about? Phat (27:29) Yeah, you know, that’s what I love about your podcast because it’s people from all walks of life. And I really like how you set it up. I mean, you say you don’t have to even prepare for it, but I think I’m the type of person. Yeah, I think I am ⁓ naturally a problem solver. think, know, in initially someone asked me if I cried and normally I, I don’t cry. And I remember when I had the stroke, once I got home, You know, I suddenly broke out in tears and you know, it was with my mom right there. And so it just hit me. know, initially I think, you know, we all get hit with that and our emotions and, you know, everything bottles up and has to come out or should come out. But, um, you know, I am a problem solver. I felt like after time, it gave me some time to process it. And I started thinking a bit like, okay, so how am I going to tackle this? So I tried to think of it like a problem that I had to solve and I slowly broke it down into pieces and started building myself up. know, I mean, when you look at me now, you you wouldn’t look at me and think like, okay, his stroke probably wasn’t that bad. But you know, it’s a lot different now than it was in the beginning. And so, you know, and that’s why with me, I figured it out. I started figuring out things and slowly improved until where I’m at now. Bill Gasiamis (28:53) That whole thing is that if you look at me now, you wouldn’t know that I had a stroke and I don’t come across as somebody who had a stroke, et cetera. And that’s a real challenge for me because I have had the worst week leading up to this interview again. Today’s probably the first day I felt really good, maybe for about four or five days. And I was struggling with fatigue and I was struggling with brain fog and I was struggling with sleep. And I was just a mess. Phat (29:04) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (29:23) half the person that I was a week earlier. And it’s. I’m always conscious about the fact that I put off of this vibe on my podcast interviews, because I try and be the best version of myself, because you need to be the best version of yourself when you’re interviewing another person, even if you don’t feel the best. ⁓ But at the same time, you want to be, what’s the word like? Phat (29:38) That’s so good, yeah. Bill Gasiamis (29:45) you wanna be authentic. I mean, that’s the only word I can come up with. And that means that I need to tell people about how I’m feeling during a podcast. Like I might be tired, half asleep. I might even come across a little bit off, but then still, this is sometimes what stroke looks like and the part of stroke. After the interviews, you may not see, you may not see what it’s like. And I don’t want people comparing themselves to me just because I mostly look okay on a podcast interview. Phat (30:21) Yeah, I think that’s the frustrating thing. no matter whether you look like it or don’t, I think we still both experience different types of things in After Effects. And I understand your situation because it is frustrating because a lot of times we might not show it, but we’re still dealing with things that survivors still experience. Mindset Shifts and Control And, you know, we in front of the camera, we had to put on a face, right. And even sometimes like at work or in front of my family, they don’t realize I’m still dealing with things. And, you know, even my significant others, there’s things she doesn’t fully understand, and I’m still dealing with it. You know, or I might do something and she’s like, why are you doing that? But she doesn’t realize what I’m going through inside. And the external is one thing and the internal is another. Bill Gasiamis (31:12) Yeah, extremely difficult for me to even wrap my head around it still. And, you know, I’m nearly 14 years post first stroke, you know, and I’m 12 years post surgery and there’s so many things that have improved and so many things that are better. But you know, when I’m, my kids were over the other day and they don’t often hang around with me for a long amount of time. So they don’t often see what it’s like for me. Phat (31:23) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (31:41) But everyone assumes that I am what’s wrong. Like everyone assumes there’s something wrong. And it’s like, I’m not cranky. There’s nothing wrong. I’m just having a stroke day. Like I can’t be better than what I am right now. And it’s not you, you know, it’s me. Phat (31:58) Yeah, big time. Yeah, I really feel like sometimes it’s hard for people to understand too if they haven’t had a stroke, but even for survivors to know that even people with, there are invisible disabilities out there, know, and each stroke is so complex and different. So we’re all, you know, having to deal with different things. And so that’s something to be aware of. And it’s good to be aware of that. Bill Gasiamis (32:25) What are some of the things that you still miss out on that you haven’t gone back to or you can’t do anymore or you choose not to do? Phat (32:36) Yeah, you know, I used to be a lot more active. I like, I love to snowboard before I can’t do that anymore because my balance is not at that point. And, plus I don’t want to take that risk in case something happens. Like, you know, I get some kind of traumatic brain injury or something or fall. ⁓ You know, my coordination, my fine manipulation isn’t good. My memory isn’t the best. I still have double vision, so I can’t do any type of like, like people are trying to invite me to play pickleball and I definitely can’t do that. You know, I can’t fall and track the ball, you know, plus my balance is horrible. Yeah. You know, I think my processing, I can only retain so much information or like Multitasking even though I think I believe multitasking isn’t the best but it’s like I can’t multitask, know, so you have to really focus in on one thing You know, I mean I built myself up to this point But it’s hard to do multiple things like if I’m really focused on something it’s hard for me to pay attention to something else Yeah, those are just some things Bill Gasiamis (33:52) You know with double vision, I don’t know anything about it. I’ve met so many stroke survivors who have double vision as a result of the stroke. Phat (34:00) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (34:01) This might sound like a silly question. If you close one of your eyes, does the double vision go away? Phat (34:08) It does go away. So just to explain, it’s just your eyes aren’t… normally your eyes work together, but then one is kind of offset a little bit. So you’re seeing two pictures, but if you close one eye, then the double vision goes away. But in order for you to improve the double vision, you got to train it to work together. Bill Gasiamis (34:23) Okay. Is that some kind of training that you’ve done that you’re continuing to do? Phat (34:30) So there’s. ⁓ Yeah, know what I did initially, I saw a vision therapist that I was seeing them for about a year, but it got really expensive. So I stopped. But now I’m just taking what I learned and I’m practicing it on my own. There is an option for people to get surgery, but I am focused on just doing everything naturally. And so it’s still healing as long as I continue to practice it and exercises stay consistent. But just recently, since I’m doing a lot of things, I haven’t been as good at being consistent with my vision therapy exercises, so it’s actually getting worse. Bill Gasiamis (35:14) huh. So what does the surgery do? Does it change the position of the eye? Phat (35:16) Yeah. Yeah, the surgery does change the position and then it corrects it right away. Which there’s a lot of survivors that have done that. My double vision actually was really extreme, but it’s at the point now where it’s almost corrected. Bill Gasiamis (35:40) And is that a muscle issue? that like, you know how some strike survivors talk about weakness on their left side? It’s that the muscle activates or becomes deactivated in a particular way. And therefore it doesn’t respond in the same way that it used to. It doesn’t contract and release from the contraction in the same way that it used to. Is that a similar thing that’s happening to the eye? Breath Control Techniques for Stress Relief Phat (36:09) Yeah, it is kind of similar to that. And so what I’ve learned from talking to different therapists, it helps when you like isolate one side and you build that side and strengthen it. And so that’s the part where I’m missing because I’m working them together, but still the affected side is weaker. And so it’s just not strong enough to keep up. It’s kind of like our bodies, like, you know how one side is more affected. So we is good for us to isolate it and build it and that’s what I try to do with my effective side normally but with the eye it’s more difficult with the eye because you really have to like wear a patch or something you know Bill Gasiamis (36:50) Yeah, I hear you. Okay, so you wear a patch, you isolate the other eye, but then at the same time, you’re decreasing the strength of the other eye, or you might be interfering with that one by isolating it. Phat (37:02) Yeah, you’re right. Yeah, that’s exactly it. So you don’t want to patch it too much because you also want the eyes to work together. Bill Gasiamis (37:09) Yeah, that sounds like a task. I know going to the gym when I’m ⁓ pushing weights with the barbell, my left side might be pushing the same amount of weight, but it’s never going to become as big or as strong as my right side. It always seems to be just, you know, the few steps behind it, no matter what I do. it’s improving in strength, but it’s always the weakest link. It’s always the link that kind of makes the last few exercises not possible because it fatigues quicker than the right side. Phat (37:43) Yeah. Yeah, that’s what I deal with too. And a lot of times your dominant side does help it out a lot. Bill Gasiamis (37:58) kind of dominant side, my dominant side kind of over helps. And then it puts that side at risk. Phat (37:58) So yeah, sometimes. Yeah, it will help. Yeah, big time. You know, I’ve learned that there’s different ways to do it. You can build that affected side like with reps and then also sometimes doing a little bit heavier just a few times. I don’t know. I feel like it gets really in depth like how you want to do it. You know, sometimes even like holding a lightweight like up for a long time, it kind of gets heavy and it wants to like fatigue out real fast. So there’s different variations that I’ve learned throughout this process. Bill Gasiamis (38:40) Yeah. Was there a moment, would you say that you had a moment where your mindset shifted and you realized that you were kind of growing through this, even though you had all this challenge and difficulty that you had to overcome? Phat (38:58) Yeah, you know, I have to really think about it. It’s kind of just been a process and I’ve kind of accepted so much to happen, but I would say for the longest time over a year, you know, I would go down on myself and think about, ⁓ I miss the old ways. But I think as I’ve continued on this path and Maybe I don’t think about it as much because I keep myself busy and just trying to recover. so, yeah, but I think I’m trying to think of when it was like kind of like a light bulb moment, but I kind of knew that I couldn’t stay stuck in that because I couldn’t change anything about it. So I had to focus on what I could do or what I had control over. Bill Gasiamis (39:52) Yeah, that control part is really important. It seems like people who lose control of things ⁓ tend to, depends if you’re a control freak kind of person, right? Some people really like the illusion of control. They tend to feel good when things are predictable. I’m kind of that way, I lose, if I lose predictability, take control. I like to take a few steps back and see what I can control. can control the way I think about things, the way I respond to things, the way I act, the way I behave. It becomes about what then I can control on a micro scale. Whereas some people will do control on a macro scale. And some people will control like, Phat (40:16) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bill Gasiamis (40:44) their environment and if their environment is okay, then they’re okay within their environment. But I don’t try and control external things. I try to influence them in a positive way, but I won’t expect an outcome from something that I don’t have any influence over. ⁓ And then I kind of try and work on what do I need to do to feel better about that thing that I am out of control of that I cannot change. but I can change how I respond to it. That’s kind of where all the work has been. Like where’s the work for you been? Phat (41:21) Yeah, you know, I do know that I do practice meditation and even before I had a stroke, I did practice meditation and that is one of the big things from meditation that you just naturally have that mindset to do that and to understand. And so I feel like that practice has actually helped me to be more flexible and accept certain things and focus on what I can control more. But just to say with the benefits of meditation, a lot of the benefits are specifically for stroke survivors. So I feel like it has helped me tremendously. Managing Tremors and Physical Recovery Bill Gasiamis (42:04) Did it begin, was that kind of one of the tools that helped you to begin to feel hopeful again? Phat (42:10) Yeah, to feel hopeful, to be able to focus better, have better memory, I guess reduce the pain that I was feeling, the depression. Yeah, there’s a list of things, yeah, think that’s, those are the ones off the top of my head. Yeah, I know it’s like. Bill Gasiamis (42:32) Are you a guided meditation? Phat (42:35) You know, I don’t, I just do ⁓ the most simple breath counting meditation. Yeah. It’s kind of, I can explain it, but you just focus on your breathing and counting. So it helps you with your focus too. don’t know. A lot of survivors have a problem with their focus. I did. So, and I still do actually now it’s not like to where I was before the stroke, but it’s getting almost there. Bill Gasiamis (42:45) What’s your kid? Counting how many counts in, how many counts out do you do? Phat (43:10) So you do inhale and exhale is one, inhale, exhale two, all the way till ten, and then you start over again. If that makes sense, yeah. Bill Gasiamis (43:23) So you just basically trying to get even inhale and exhalations. Are they even? they one is longer than the other or shorter than the other? Like how does it go? Phat (43:36) You can do even. I tend to do a longer exhale. Maybe like a, well, cause now I’ve built up the endurance. do about five second in inhale and then like a eight second exhale. But I also put together a PDF. I can send it to anybody for free if they want to just reach out to me. Yeah. And I can, you can put my information on the show notes. Yeah. It’s a really basic thing I put together if anyone’s interested. And Navy SEALs, use this type of, I mean, it’s also called box breathing. It’s kind of box breathing or meditation. And, you know, I know they use it for like extreme stress and things like that too. Bill Gasiamis (43:59) Okay, cool. helps people calm their autonomic nervous system to go into a parasympathetic state, which is the relaxed state. That’s what the, yeah, the longer exhalation helps people go there. You can basically intervene in a ⁓ heightened anxious state or a stressed state or a upset state. And you can intervene within a few minutes and bring yourself into a calm state just by changing the way that you breathe. You know what’s really cool fat? Phat (44:29) That’s exactly it, yeah. Bill Gasiamis (44:53) my gosh, I learned this the other day on TikTok. think I saw it. I can’t remember who it was that showed it to me. So unfortunately I can’t credit them, but also people who do yoga or that kind of stuff probably already know this, but to me it was like the most brand new amazing thing that I’ve ever learned. And what it was, if you can see my fingers, right? They said that if you try this, if you press ⁓ your thumb onto the finger after Phat (44:54) Yeah. and Bill Gasiamis (45:22) your little finger, I don’t know what it’s called, finger. So these two, so not your thumb, your thumb and not the little finger, the next one over. When you breathe, what do you notice? And what I noticed, tell me if you noticed this, is I noticed that my breathing shifts from my belly to my chest. somehow my chest takes over the breathing. Somehow my breath moves to my chest and it feels like a labored more anxious breath, right? And then if you shift it from that to your thumb and your first finger, Phat (45:43) But, sorry, just need to focus. Thank Bill Gasiamis (46:06) your breath automatically shifts to the belly and your diaphragm expands and contracts. And I tried that and I had the most profound experience. The first finger, your first finger and your thumb, two fingers next to them. Phat (46:16) really? on. Bill Gasiamis (46:26) Yeah, those two, yeah, yeah. ⁓ I felt like my breath shifted automatically on its own when I did that. And I don’t know if everyone gets that experience. So then for fun, I tried it with my wife and I said to her, can you please do this with your fingers? The first one was the little finger. I wish I knew what they were called, but the finger next to the little finger and the thumb. Phat (46:26) this. really? Bill Gasiamis (46:54) I asked her to do that and I asked her to tell me how does that feel when you’re breathing and she said that feels really terrible, I feel anxious. And I said, okay, cool. Now just please change it to the other two fingers, the first finger and your thumb and then see what that feels like. And she said that feels far better and the anxiousness has gone away. Phat (47:17) Really? Wow. Bill Gasiamis (47:18) Yeah. So I reckon if you have a play with that and you pay attention, I think I’ve seen a lot of yogis or people who practice yoga or who meditate, think I’ve seen people hold their fingers like that. And as a result of that, perhaps they automatically instinctively activate the diaphragm and the belly breath instead of the chest breath, which is the more anxious breath. It was such an interesting little hack to experience literally by changing which two fingers you’re pressing together. And it kind of connects to that meditation side of it. And I think it would add for me, it would add something extra to meditation that I previously didn’t know about. So isn’t that fascinating? Growing an Online Presence and Sharing Stories Phat (48:09) Yeah, that is so fascinating. I actually don’t even normally sit like that. I just put my hands in my lap. But I did. If you notice, I still have tremors on this side, and that’s how I actually got my tremors to reduce is I would hold it like this sometimes and just meditate. And then it’s just like heels or something. But yeah, before it used to shake a lot. Now it’s a lot better. Bill Gasiamis (48:17) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So do the meditation from now on. Phat (48:39) but sometimes just doing these finger taps. Bill Gasiamis (48:42) Yeah, right. That’s for coordination and that, right. Phat (48:44) Okay, you might try that. Yeah, yeah. Also you do use the pointer finger and the thumb. Bill Gasiamis (48:47) Yeah, try those first two fingers. Make a circle with it. That’s it, is that what it’s called, the pointer finger? Phat (48:55) Okay Bill Gasiamis (48:57) just connects to your belly. Phat (48:59) I’m off to the end. Bill Gasiamis (49:01) I have no idea how, but I love it. love that it does. It’s such a cool thing. Phat (49:05) Yeah, especially you feel that I’m gonna try it. Yeah Bill Gasiamis (49:10) So you know that tremor that you said about your hand, is that also in your leg? Phat (49:15) No, it’s only the hand. Bill Gasiamis (49:17) and it it gets worse when you are tired, I imagine. Phat (49:19) Yeah. Yeah, it does get worse under like pressure or if I’m tired. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (49:32) but you’ve found that it’s settled down a lot since the early days. Phat (49:37) Yeah, it has. So as I continue to build it, it has. Yeah, in the beginning it was really bad, but I continued to do different things. A lot of resistance training, like with rubber bands and stuff like that, yeah. I do different things. Bill Gasiamis (49:58) Do you remember what it was like in the early days? Is that the dominant hand that you use or? Phat (50:05) No, it’s not my dominant hand. Bill Gasiamis (50:08) Did they make you try and use it too? Okay. Phat (50:09) because I’m bright, dumb, and… Yeah, they said they want me to use it. Sometimes I do get lazy too. I try different things, like even for a time frame I’ll brush my teeth with my effective side, my non-dominant. But a lot of times I get lazy because it is a lot slower. So I just go to my dominant hand. I’m still guilty of it. Bill Gasiamis (50:39) just to get the job done quicker. Phat (50:41) Yeah, yeah. Bill Gasiamis (50:42) Tell me a little bit about your, ⁓ your Instagram page. Phat (50:49) Okay. Well, I started an Instagram page. It’s called Hope for Stroke Survivors. And initially, I just made it for myself to collect information on recovery. Because I felt like I was limited on the information out there. And I would find some stuff on social media. And so I started collecting it for myself and know, eventually I made it public and I started, people started following it and gravitating towards it. And so I decided to start sharing different like tips. And then I continued to do that and more people started following it until I think that was around a year after my stroke. And now I just continue to do that and it’s grown to this point now. And so I felt like a part of it was kind of my outlet. You know, you know, I’m passionate about strokes and I want to share and provide awareness. so, yeah, I started for myself, but now it’s grown to where it’s at now. And I feel like, you know, it’s, I want to provide hope and also share different people’s stories because I really enjoy, and I still enjoy seeing comeback stories. And so, you know, that’s what happened with that. And so now it’s been about, what is it? for four years or something. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (52:19) Hope for stroke survivors like 11.6K followers. Phat (52:23) Yes, call them. I’m sorry, what was that? Bill Gasiamis (52:26) It’s got 11.6K followers, 929 posts, and in the description it says, don’t fear change, trust the process. My goal is to spread hope while recovering from a severe stroke. Check out the stories from fellow stroke survivors too. Phat (52:45) Yeah, you know, after a while, I felt like, ⁓ I want to share survivor stories. feel like bring our community together. There’s a lot of survivors out there that are doing great things like yourself. You know, I found your stuff. And so, you know, I feel like it really gives a lot of us, you know, motivation, hope to believe what’s possible out there, because a lot of us have. you know, we get the wrong information, you know, I want to be able to show people what’s possible because a lot of times, you know, there’s like myths or whatever, and I just want to give people that hope. So I’ve expanded it to YouTube and also TikTok. And so, yeah, it’s grown tremendously on YouTube also. So it’s pretty cool. Bill Gasiamis (53:33) now. What kind of content you put out on YouTube? Phat (53:37) I, the same stuff, I pretty much just blast the same thing on. Well, now I’m starting to do more, I want to do more interviews, but recently I have kind of cut back on it because of time, but I want to do more interviews for like survivors and therapists and doctors on YouTube. I think that’s where I want to take it. Bill Gasiamis (54:00) Yeah. Yeah. To kind of share more information about the kind of ways that they help other people. Phat (54:08) Yeah, it’s exactly like, you know, what you’re doing. I think that’s amazing. I mean, you helped me out so much. remember yours is actually my top podcast and I would listen to it all the time. Bill Gasiamis (54:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate that. mean, you know what I love is that you’ve been doing this for four years. I’ve been doing this for 10. Somehow you’ve cracked the code. You’ve got 36.8k subscribers. I’ve barely got 8,000. So that’s very interesting to me. Like how that some channels that share pretty much the same type of content grow. And then mine has been going for 10 years and I can’t seem to get above 10,000 subscribers. What’s your trick? know, like how did you manage to get that many subscribers? Is there something that you do consistently? I’m also asking for me, but at the same time, there’ll be other stroke survivors who are thinking about starting a YouTube channel perhaps, or thinking about sharing some way or growing this type of a community. And they’re reluctant because they don’t know what they need to do and they don’t know what could happen. Now I’m not completely dissatisfied with 8,000 followers. I’m perfectly satisfied with that. But of course I wanna make sure I reach way more stroke survivors because that’s the whole point of this is to get out. Do you have any tips as to what it was that kind of helped the channel grow so fast? Phat (55:25) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, I think a big one is consistency. You know that. But, you know, I have learned a lot of things. read a lot and a part of it is also. Initially, I would share other survivors stories and also it was ⁓ like even survivors in who have had like cancer or different types of sicknesses. And so initially I was just doing that for fun. so then I think it attracted more people because it was a variety of things. But then, you know, I know that I didn’t plan to do it. if it’s. If I was going to do that, I don’t want to share other people’s things, you know, like if I want to be more serious, I have to niche down or I got to share my own stuff because I don’t want to take stuff from people. But initially. I was sharing a bunch of stuff and not wanting, I wasn’t expecting it to grow like that and I was just doing it for my own reason, for my own purpose and I think that’s how it attracted so many people too. Bill Gasiamis (56:46) Yeah. Look, it’s, it’s very cool that, um, the people have subscribed. Absolutely. And what’s good about it, even though it’s not all your content, it doesn’t really matter because if you’re putting content out there that people, uh, I mean, you’re not stealing the content, you’re not changing the names or anything like that or repurposing it. All you’re doing is, um, uh, all you’re doing is kind of pointing people to the direction of somebody else’s content channel or whatever. you know what I mean? Phat (56:58) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (57:17) ⁓ but I know what you’re saying. Phat (57:18) Yeah, yeah. mean, I would always put their contact or their credit. But that wasn’t my intent of doing it. And I’m not making any money off of it. But then I’m learning about, OK, what can I do to make this bigger and help more people? And now I’m trying to focus down or just come up with my own content so that way people can see that too. Bill Gasiamis (57:31) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I think there’s not enough voices in stroke recovery and awareness and support and why, you know, we need more. need every version of person, how they’re affected and different cultural backgrounds and that we need way more people kind of putting content out and sharing their version of the story. My story resonates with you, but it might not resonate with someone else, you know? So if, if we can have more people out there listening, who are curious about it. Phat (57:53) Yeah. You’re right, you’re right. Bill Gasiamis (58:17) ⁓ biting the bullet and doing it. It would be fantastic if that happened and then more people to collaborate with. Phat (58:21) You know, I think it’s Yeah, I think it’s easy to pay attention to the subscribers or the followers, but a lot of times too, the way how I did it is if it can just help one person, you know, that makes me happy and then it just grew like that. But that’s what I continue to do. You know, I mean, maybe there’s more subscribers. but maybe your content is connecting really deeply with more people, you know? So I feel like it can’t always be compared exactly to the followers. And if you’re a survivor, you know, I wouldn’t want to let you feel like demotivated because of that. you know, I think if you’re passionate about it, just do it. you know, I think there’s plenty of room for a bunch of people, right? Like you were saying. Bill Gasiamis (59:15) I what you said, like if you’re just passionate, just do it. That’s why I started, I didn’t start out to get a certain number of subscribers or anything like that. I just started out to share. What’s cool is that the subscribers have happened. What’s fascinating is to view like how other people have grown their channel. what, it’s a completely different version of what you’ve done and yours has grown and I’m just keen to learn about it. And I think it will encourage or help other people, you know, do the same thing. Phat (59:24) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (59:45) ⁓ And that’s kind of why I raised it. What I love about what you said is if it helps one person, like I said the same thing, dude, it helps so many more than one person. You just don’t know it because very few people reach out. Not that you’re expecting them to, but people just get the help and then they move on and they go and do good stuff. And it’s like, even better. ⁓ But every so often I get people like you sending me messages going Thanks for that episode. That was a great interview. I really got a lot out of that Can you point me in this direction or can you connect me with that person? One of the things that I do best I think then better than anything is I can connect people from all around the world with people who Are ⁓ listening and they want to get information about the thing that you tried or that service that you ⁓ purchased or whatever, you that’s what I love about it the most is I can connect people and they could be on different continents. And I love that I can do that from Australia, you know, like it’s crazy. Understanding Stroke Recovery Phat (1:00:58) Yeah Yeah. And especially, yeah, it has affected me too. You know, like I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be standing here like this if I didn’t hear your podcast. You know, I could literally say that, you know, so that’s pretty cool. Yeah. And you’re in Australia. I’m in Arizona. Bill Gasiamis (1:01:17) It’s fabulous, man. It’s so fascinating. That’s one of the things I love about technology is that with time, technology will improve and make things better for people. And hopefully it’ll help way more people than it’s helping at the moment. It’s definitely helped me with my mental health, having this podcast, this platform,

Foreign Options for US Citizens Summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Jnr3Go2Gg In this conversation, Frazer Rice of Next Vantage and Judi Galst of Henley and Partners discuss the increasing interest among U.S. citizens in exploring global mobility options amidst geopolitical chaos. We delve into the distinctions between residency and citizenship, the implications of U.S. taxation, and the motivations driving individuals to seek alternative living arrangements. The discussion also covers the potential for citizenship through ancestry, popular destinations for relocation, and investment opportunities in countries like New Zealand and Australia. Judi emphasizes the importance of understanding the legal and practical aspects of relocating, as well as the need for personal exploration before making significant decisions. Takeaways Interest in global mobility has surged among U.S. citizens. Many seek residency as an insurance policy rather than leaving the U.S. Understanding residency vs. citizenship is crucial for potential expatriates. Residency can lead to citizenship but often requires time and investment. Tax implications are complex; relocating should not be primarily for tax benefits. Ancestry can provide a pathway to citizenship in several countries. Popular destinations for U.S. citizens include Europe, the Caribbean, and New Zealand. Investment opportunities exist in countries like New Zealand and Australia. Emerging markets in South America and Asia are gaining attention. Practical steps include consulting experts and visiting potential countries. Chapters 00:00 Navigating Geopolitical Chaos: The Rise of Global Mobility 02:55 Understanding Residency vs. Citizenship: Key Differences 06:06 Tax Implications and Motivations for Seeking Alternatives 08:48 Exploring Ancestry-Based Citizenship: Opportunities and Challenges 11:54 Popular Destinations for U.S. Citizens: Europe, Caribbean, and Beyond 15:10 Investment Opportunities: New Zealand and Australia 17:59 Emerging Trends in South America and Asia 20:50 Practical Steps for U.S. Citizens Considering Relocation Transcript I’m Frazer Rice. We’re certainly living in crazy political times right now, and a lot of US citizens are worried about what’s happening here and abroad. And they’re starting to think about other residencies and citizenship options. I talked to Judy Gost at Henley and Partners about what is and isn’t possible on that front. By the end of this, you’re going to understand the locations that are interesting, the difference between residency and citizenship, and why that may matter as you make choices for your retirement and your location long-term, both for yourself and for your kids. Frazer Rice (00:00.874)Welcome aboard, Judy. Judi Galst (00:03.022)Thanks for having me. Frazer Rice (00:04.244)Well, we’re in the midst of a lot of geopolitical chaos, and I think you have seen and I’ve seen a lot of interest in United States citizens looking abroad for either places to live or other situations to either get away from the chaos or try to address some other needs in their lives. What is the state of the union? assume interest has ticked up. Judi Galst (00:27.874)Yes, I’ve seen more business than I could have ever predicted, but it’s not necessarily people that are leaving the United States. For the most part, most of the clients that I’m working with are doing it as an insurance policy. A lot of the conversations I have with a client start out with them saying, I don’t want to leave the United States, but I’m feeling unsettled and the way to mitigate the way that I’m feeling is to have options. So they want to understand what if I did want to have a guaranteed right to go live in another part of the world? What is available to me? How do I pursue this? How long will it take? Frazer Rice (01:08.434)And we’ll get into some of the technical aspects here, but one of the concepts is understanding the difference between being able to reside somewhere else and being a citizen of another country, and then how that interacts with being a citizen of the United States. Maybe take us through the comparison of residents versus citizenship. Judi Galst (01:28.748)Yeah, that’s actually a really important distinction. And it doesn’t mean that one is better than the other, but they do have different benefits. And so it’s important to understand the difference. So let’s start with residents. Residents doesn’t mean the ability to have a house in another country. It means the ability to reside legally in another country. So the US passport is very strong. You can go into a lot of different countries even without having a visa. But we can’t stay there forever. We have limits, for example, in Europe. We can go in for 90 days, but then we have to leave for 90 days before we can go back in for another 90 days. So if you become a legal resident of another country, you have the ability to live there unlimited for a certain period of time. Residency is not permanent unless there’s a path to permanent residency. So usually you’re going to have to renew it and there may be some conditions in order to maintain it. Now, how frequently you have to renew it is going to vary by the country. For example, in Greece, you can become a Greek resident via a golden visa and that is good for five years and you’ll renew for another five years. In Italy, it’s good for two years. Then you renew for another three years. In Portugal, it’s good for two years. Then you renew for another three years. And as I said, there could be conditions. So in Greece, you qualify via purchasing real estate. If you sell the real estate, you’re going to lose your golden visa, not be able to renew it. In Italy, you qualify via purchasing stock. Frazer Rice (02:51.925)Right. Judi Galst (02:55.945)If you sell the stock, you’re not going to be able to renew it. You can get some travel rights by being a resident. Usually this benefit is not as important to a U.S. person because we already have really good travel benefits with our U.S. passport. But it can often be a strategy for someone from a country with a weaker passport, say even someone living in the United States that has only a Chinese passport. If they want to go into Europe, they have to get a Schenken visa. So a strategy for them might be let me become a resident of say Greece and then I gain Schengen access. Not unlimited, but I get that 90 days out of 180 days. Finally, I would say that residency can have a path to citizenship. Usually it’s a pretty arduous path. For example, in Italy, you can become a resident. You have to live in the country of Italy for six months a year for 10 years before you’d be eligible to apply. In Greece, six months a year for seven years. But there is ultimately a path in most residency programs. Frazer Rice (03:56.755)So let’s dive into citizenship, which my predilection on that is that it’s a much more permanent component, but it’s also a much more difficult process in general. Judi Galst (04:05.646)It doesn’t necessarily have to be difficult. It really depends on what program you’re doing. But you’re right. It’s a guaranteed right. It’s very difficult for a country to take away someone’s citizenship. The other big difference is that you get a passport. So in addition to gaining the ability to live in the country that you’re a citizen of, you also get another travel document. So depending upon what treaties have been done between your country of citizenship and other countries, it may really improve your mobility. Again, U.S. passport is pretty strong. you’re U.S. passport holder, unless there’s something unexpected like a pandemic when borders close to Americans, you already have a good travel document. But it can be another mobility option. Perhaps you’re going into a country you don’t want to identify as a U.S. passport holder, or perhaps you have a weaker passport and you want to travel on a secondary citizenship passport that might improve your mobility. Where citizenship is particularly powerful is in Europe. Because if you become a citizen of one country in the European Union, you gain the right to reside and work in any country in Europe. Frazer Rice (05:11.104)And just to distinguish, how does that impact UK people after they Brexited? Judi Galst (05:16.942)Sadly, with Brexit, the UK is no longer part of the EU. So many people in the UK are quite upset about this because no, you’re not going to gain the ability as a citizen of an EU country to live in the UK, nor are citizens of the UK now able to live anywhere in the European Union as they were previously. Frazer Rice (05:36.992)So let’s apply this directly to US citizens. So US citizen taxed on worldwide wealth. Let’s start with that. sure because I just got a Twitter fight with somebody who said, well, if you’re crypto, you can move away and you’re not out of the system. I’m like, that’s just no. We’ll start with that. But taxed on worldwide wealth, good passport can travel, but there are limitations as far as how long you can stay in various countries, probably around Judi Galst (05:52.622)Mm-hmm. Frazer Rice (06:06.578)Investment options, land ownership, things like that, depending on it. Where are the benefits of that U.S. person looking for another place to either reside or gain citizenship? Judi Galst (06:20.312)Well, it’s not a tax benefit. You started out with taxes and I know when someone, a client calls and says, you know, can you tell me what my options are? I’m really sick of paying us taxes. I’m like, well, this isn’t the right call for you. Yeah. So, but it’s important to understand. It doesn’t mean you’re going to be double taxed because that is a misconception that many people have about whether they should pursue a strategy of alternative residents or citizenship, because unlike the U S and Eritrea, Frazer Rice (06:22.079)Right. Frazer Rice (06:30.08)Puerto Rico that that’s it. That’s your best bet if you’re gonna try if you’re gonna try to play games Judi Galst (06:49.774)Every other country in the world, you don’t automatically become a tax resident by being a legal resident or even by being a citizen. Usually, you’re not going to trigger tax residency unless you reside 183 days in another country, but there are some exceptions. Switzerland is 90 days. Some, like New Zealand, will say it’s 183 days, but in a 12-month period, not necessarily in a year. I’m not licensed to give tax advice, so I’m giving high-level answer to this question. But in general, just by pursuing an alternative residence or citizenship, there’s no tax consequences. And if you were to become a tax resident, many of the countries that we support programs in have treaties. So it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to pay double tax, but it does mean it has to be looked at. If I am talking to a client and they really have full intention of relocating to another country, immediately I want them to have a local tax consultation, which I set up for them to understand what, if any, consequences they have to be aware of. Frazer Rice (07:50.322)And those consequences can change. did an episode probably about six months ago on the change in law in the UK. And it’s a different environment than it was even six months ago for people either going in or coming out of that country as it relates to their US intersection. So I think that the summary on all of that is, look, if you’re going there, A, don’t do it for tax purposes, B, If you’re going to do it, make sure you get local tax counsel because those relationships can be complicated and will affect your planning. Judi Galst (08:25.198)Let’s talk about why people are doing it because taxes is not the strategy. And I would say, and my clients are almost exclusively Americans. So why are people calling me about this? There’s really four key motivators that tend to come up in the conversation. The first is because they do want another mobility option. They kind of have some PTSD still from the pandemic. They remember that feeling. Frazer Rice (08:27.935)Mm. Judi Galst (08:48.226)We could all work remotely. You had the vacation house in Italy or you had the private plane and all of a sudden you couldn’t take advantage of it because all the borders are closed to you and we could only stay in the United States. So some people are just realizing there is some risk to having one mobility option and they want to have an alternative. But I would say 90 % of the conversations I have there’s some reference to a plan B. People are feeling unsettled for so many different reasons. You know, I talked to people whose family fled the Holocaust. It is literally in their DNA where their family thought it could never happen here. And that comes up in every conversation with them. But I have same sex, you know, couples, have transgender clients, I have people whose family lived in other countries where they saw the fall of democracy. And then I just have a lot of wealthy clients, and they’re diversifying their assets right now. And they want to diversify their mobility. They pay a lot of money in insurance and they say, Judy, this is just another line item. Frazer Rice (09:45.896)You Judi Galst (09:46.703)I’d say some are thinking not just about themselves, but they’re thinking about protecting generational opportunity and legacy. Some say, you know, I’m a student of history and yeah, maybe it’s going to take 10, 15, 20 years, but I’ve seen this happen before. And I want to know that my kids and my grandkids are going to have options to either live a life in another part of the world for cultural or educational opportunities or in a worst case scenario, because the U.S. isn’t where they actually want to be. And finally, I’d say it fits nicely in a diversification of asset strategy, which many, many people are thinking about right now. Maybe they don’t want to hold all their money in the United States. Maybe they don’t want to all their real estate in the United States. And there can be strategies that are separate from what I do in terms of opening bank accounts in Switzerland or Singapore or other parts of the world. But really, all the programs that I do require you to move some assets. You’re either investing in stock or venture capital or private equity or real estate. So it does complement a diversification of asset strategy. Frazer Rice (10:42.911)Cool, so let’s think about, we sort of beat the tax horse to death a little bit here, but relocating versus renouncing. And different things, know, people probably come up to you with questions, do I have to fully leave? Do I have to renounce my US citizenship? How does all of that Judi Galst (10:51.608)Mm-hmm. Judi Galst (10:58.222)Great questions. So I’ve never had a client renounce. The US right now does not limit the number of passports one can have or citizenships one can have or how many residences they can have. Now, there is a congressperson who has just decided he wants to introduce some sort of bill that’s going to eliminate dual citizenship for Americans, although most constitutional scholars feel that’s like dead on arrival. But I have to acknowledge that. So no, you don’t need to renounce. And frankly, if you have a lot of money, renouncing is quite complicated and expensive, and you need really good counsel to make that very, very significant decision. In terms of relocation, almost all of the programs that we support require little to no physical presence. You’re always going to probably have to go for biometrics and give fingerprints. But a lot of these programs, you don’t actually have to come back to that country again, except to renew it. So for people that really want it as a Plan B and have no intention of really going to live in another part of the world at this stage in their lives, there’s not an obligation for you to spend time in order to maintain the ability to live in another country if you so choose. Frazer Rice (12:08.017)One thing that comes up that people ask me about and I only vaguely understand it is the concept of being able to get citizenship via ancestry. Comes up with a lot of people of Irish descent, Germany and Austrian especially. What’s the state of that and how realistic is it across different countries? Judi Galst (12:15.993)Mm. Mm-hmm. Judi Galst (12:26.767)It’s very realistic. And in fact, I’m doing German citizenship for myself. So for anyone whose family fled due to Nazi persecution from Germany and Austria, you and all future generations are entitled to citizenship. And my friends are like, why do you want German passport? But first of all, my kids got it. So my kids can go now live and work in Europe if they want, which is great, tremendous optionality. If you remember, I said before, it’s not just Germany. It’s any country in the European Union. Frazer Rice (12:30.473)Okay. Frazer Rice (12:47.956)Right. Judi Galst (12:56.899)And it’s very affordable if you actually are entitled to it. At Henley and Partners, we have established relationships with experts, lawyers in several countries that specialize in citizenship by ancestry. It’s very complex. And every country has different rules about like, it was passed down on the mother’s side, or if there was a break in the bloodline, or if it was passed a certain generation, or if there was a name change, there’s a lot of complexity to it. But clients who think they may be eligible can contact us and we will have an assessment done. And if there is a case, we’ll refer them to someone that can help them through the process. And, you know, it can cost around 5,000, 7,500 euros versus I have clients getting EU citizenship through, you know, Malta and they’re 1.5 million out of pocket. So if you can qualify via Ancestry, I’d say certainly it’s worth considering. Frazer Rice (13:50.879)Terrific. Judi Galst (13:51.311)But don’t call me and say, like, I did 23andMe and I’m Irish. Because you do actually have to produce documents. Not a humongous list of documents, but you’re going to need naturalization certificates for the descendant. You’re going to need marriage certificates, birth certificates, and other documents. Frazer Rice (13:55.187)Ha ha ha! Frazer Rice (14:10.844)So there’s definitely an exercise involved with it, but if you can legitimately trace lineage, you may have a shot. So let’s talk about what jurisdictions are popular with United States citizens. We talked a little bit about Europe, and I’m sure there’s some, let’s call it, some that are easier than others. But then Caribbean, South America, Australia, New Zealand, maybe even Asia, what comes across your desk as being Judi Galst (14:14.094)Mm-mm. Exactly. Frazer Rice (14:40.488)more reasonable than others maybe. Judi Galst (14:43.246)So I’d say clients that I’m talking to are basically going in one of four different directions. One is Europe. For residency, we’re looking at Portugal, Greece, Italy, and Malta. Those are all great programs because they require little to no time in the country to maintain the residency rights. So for people that really have no intention of spending significant time in another country, they’re really good solutions. And for citizenship in Europe, there very limited options. There’s ancestry, which we just talked about. But the concept of citizenship by investment in Europe essentially was killed by the European Court of Justice in the spring of 2025. To give a little bit of explanation, Malta used to have a citizenship by investment program. And it basically said, do these three things, make a large gift to the Maltese economy, rent a property for six years and spend somewhere around 21 days in the country. And you will have a path. to citizenship in Malta, which is an EU country. And the EU hated it. They felt it was transactional, that the passport was being sold, and they felt that people were being granted citizenship that didn’t show a tie to the country. And when this court ruling came out and deemed Malta’s program illegal, it essentially killed citizenship by investment programs in Europe. So I don’t think you’re going to see any European Union country have a citizenship by investment program, nor any country that wants to join the EU have one. But many countries in Europe have provisions in their constitution that say, if you are an exceptional person that make an exceptional contribution to our country or to humanity, we have discretionary ability to grant you citizenship. And so there are some paths to citizenship via merit, specifically through Malta and Austria right now, as well as some other places. So that’s Europe, snapshot of Europe. Let’s talk a little bit about Caribbean, which you specifically brought up. Frazer Rice (16:35.581)Right. Judi Galst (16:40.862)So Caribbean is a path to citizenship. If you remember, said citizenship, lifelong, right? Not many countries have a path to citizenship. It’s very fast. It’s very affordable. What does it give you? So there are five countries in the Caribbean that have programs St. Kitts, Antigua, Grenada, Dominica, St. Lucia. It gives you citizenship in one of those countries. A passport, another passport that you can travel on. Right now, it’s pretty strong. You can go into Europe with it, the UK, Ireland, not unlimited, same as the US, limited amount of time. Although I’m not sure the strength of the Caribbean passports is always going to be. as strong as it is today. Europe doesn’t love these programs. And I wouldn’t be surprised if the Caribbean passports tend to get weaker. However, for a client that says to me, this is purely an insurance policy. I want to cover my kids and my kids are in their 20s because a lot of times these program kids are going to need their own investment if they’re over the age of 18 or 21. Caribbean wouldn’t be a bad place for us if we felt we wanted to get out of town for a little while. Frazer Rice (17:23.23)Sure. Judi Galst (17:50.031)The Caribbean’s a great solution for a very affordable amount, maybe 400,000 for family. You can get and make an investment in real estate that you can sell in five or seven years and your entire family can gain citizenship. So that’s Caribbean. I can pivot to something else that you want to ask a question. OK, so I actually love the program that New Zealand has out right now, especially for a high net worth person. Frazer Rice (18:05.342)Okay, no, let’s try Australia and New Zealand. Judi Galst (18:18.414)I think every high net worth person should do New Zealand. And for a couple of reasons. First of all, it’s purely investment driven. You have to move a lot of money. So it has to be for a high net worth person because they’re going to move three million US dollars to be invested in private equity, venture capital and private credit in New Zealand for around a three year period. And children up to the age of 25, provided that they’re single and not working full time can be included in that investment. There’s very little time that the family needs to spend in New Zealand. As soon as you move the money there, you gain the right to live unlimited in New Zealand. But the main applicant only has to do 21 days, and the other family members only have to enter and exit for one day in the first year. At the end of three years, provided you didn’t invest in things that have a longer holding period, but from an immigration perspective, you can liquidate your investment. And then you can become a permanent resident. So you have a lifelong right at any time to relocate to New Zealand, or you never have to go back again. English speaking, good healthcare, good education. You could have a life there, unlike I don’t think people really want to envision spending 10 years in the Caribbean. But 10 years in New Zealand, you know, there’s many industries and many things that you could be doing. And you could have a quality of life, maybe not akin to the United States, but good. So I love the New Zealand program. Australia used to have a citizenship by investment program. They do not have one any longer. There is a route that they extend to people, which they call sort of like a talent visa. So there are certain sectors that are important to Australia and they would very much like to attract talent in those sectors. Usually it’s younger talent. So when I’m talking to a client that’s over 55, it can be difficult to get you approved for it. But I’ve had people over 55 that have gotten approved. And if you have the background that Australia deems valuable, they’ll grant you a five-year visa for you and your family at no cost. Children have to be under the age of 18 or financially dependent up to age 23 to be included. But this is a visa that’s only good for five years. And if you don’t contribute to Australian society, it’s not getting renewed. Judi Galst (20:38.082)But I’ve had people from Hollywood, I’ve had songwriters, I’ve had producers, directors, people in private equity that specialize in sectors that are important to Australia. People in finance have been approved. So it’s worth considering if the idea of being able to live in Australia means something to you. Interestingly with that visa, you can also live in New Zealand. Frazer Rice (20:58.095)Okay, it’s one of those things too. If people aren’t forcing you to say, don’t hate me because I’m beautiful, that might not be a good route, but if you are talented or bring something to bear, it may be worth taking a stab at. Is it reciprocal? If you’re in New Zealand, can you go to Australia? Got it. So let’s pivot to Asia and or South America, which you hear about Singapore, you hear about… Judi Galst (21:16.194)No. Good question. Frazer Rice (21:27.131)Other different sort of haveny types of places where people place their wealth or establish family offices and South America I think is, know, think about like Uruguay and places like that which, you know, have the reputation of being the Switzerland of South America. What’s the state of play there? Judi Galst (21:44.527)So I have actually had a few clients that have done residency in Uruguay. They don’t have a formalized program, although I think a more formalized program is going to come out of there. Henley and Partners actually has a government advisory line of business, so we design a lot of these programs and we’re very active in South America. There’s a lot of interest in South America to have citizenship and residence by investment programs, so I think you’re going to see a lot coming from that region in the near term. But Uruguay does have a path to residency. You have to spend time there. Frazer Rice (21:58.611)Mm-hmm. Frazer Rice (22:12.893)Judi Galst (22:13.251)And they don’t tell you exactly how much. Yeah. But most of my clients went with the expectation that maybe they’d have to stay for 30 days and they ended up getting the visa approved faster. You have to go back every year for a period of time or not renew renewing it. But yes, there is a path in Uruguay and more in Central America. People are doing Panama. Frazer Rice (22:36.637)Costa Rica. Judi Galst (22:37.773)Costa Rica is really interesting, very affordable. know we wanted to talk a little bit about the range, but in Costa Rica, you can gain temporary residence by demonstrating you have $2,500 a month in passive income. Many people will have that with interest and dividend income. Or you could invest $150,000 in real estate. It’s a temporary residence for two years, and then you renew for another two years. But at three years, you can transition to permanent residence. As a temporary resident, cannot work for a company in Costa Rica, so you’d have to be able to work remotely. And then once you become a permanent resident, that requirement disappears. Once you are approved, you do have to pay into Social Security in Costa Rica that gives you access to health care. So it’s about $300 per application per month. But Costa Rica is very interesting, I think. Frazer Rice (23:26.67)As we go back, pivot back to Asia, are there any countries with Singapore or others that are possibilities for people in the US? Judi Galst (23:33.722)So Singapore is a possibility. However, you have to move a family office with over 200 million there, or investment levels are around 30 million, and you have to relocate, and the ability to renew it is contingent upon how much time you spend in Singapore. So I would say a very niche client could do Singapore. A more affordable option might be Thailand, which you can get a residence permit very… Frazer Rice (23:44.125)Mm-hmm. Frazer Rice (23:52.605)To be sure. Okay. Judi Galst (24:00.782)Inexpensively. mean, a five-year permit for $25,000. Frazer Rice (24:05.159)Wow. And to round out our tour of the world here, Middle East countries, maybe the UAE, you hear about that as a place where a lot of Europeans go to move their wealth. Is that becoming popular with United States citizens? Judi Galst (24:16.463)Mm-hmm. Judi Galst (24:22.381)Golden Visa in Dubai is very popular. Honestly, not so much among Americans. It’s usually people from other parts of the world. mean, my firm has 70 offices around the world and we do a lot of UAE Golden Visas. I don’t have a huge amount of interest from Americans. I’ve done a couple of them. It’s not hard. You do have to spend time, like 30 days as part of the process there. Frazer Rice (24:26.525)Mm-hmm. Judi Galst (24:46.703)You can invest in real estate at 550,000, but there’s like 19 different visa types. You can set up a company. If you’re a member of YPO, Young Presidents Organization, they’re deemed talented and they don’t even make an investment. So, you know, it’s an option and we could certainly help it. But to be honest, I don’t see huge demand among Americans. Frazer Rice (25:03.259)Interesting. So let’s round this out a little bit here. For a U.S. citizen who is feeling unsettled or is just curious what’s out there. They want the ability to go live in Madeira, buy a place there. And to be able to go unfettered or something like that. What’s a good thought process or sequence of events for them to go through in order to make that happen? Judi Galst (25:31.344)I mean, we don’t charge for consultations. So I don’t know if you’re going to share my email at the end of this, but just hit me up. To me, any client conversation is about educating. This is generally a new topic for someone. It’s very rare that someone calls me and they really understand what is available to them and also what would be a good fit for them. They may not understand if they want to include their children. There are going to be some that are going to be better fits for them than other based on the ages of the kids. They may not understand how much time they have to spend in a country to make it happen. How much it’s going to cost, and just learn about it. Learn what your options are. I can usually pretty quickly. Once I understand a client’s objectives, tell them. This is a strategy that I think makes sense for you and exactly how it would Frazer Rice (26:14.206)And it strikes me too, that for people who are exploring different places, it’s probably a good idea to have visited them first before just jumping in, jumping in feet first and sort of solving a problem without understanding what actually implementing the solution looks like. Judi Galst (26:21.111)Yeah. Yeah. Judi Galst (26:29.177)For sure. I because many of the clients that I work with are of higher wealth, they usually have done a fair amount of traveling. So the idea of envisioning, know, residency in Italy, they’ve been to Italy. But when I talk to clients, especially about the Caribbean, where they might be investing in real estate and they have to decide between which country makes the most sense, I always tell them they should try and go because it can be a lifestyle decision. And they want to see where they could actually envision themselves if, in fact, they triggered this insurance policy. Frazer Rice (26:58.59)Judy, great stuff. Here it is. Put your email out there in case people want to reach out and find out more. Judi Galst (27:05.099)Okay, amazing. So my email is my first name, Judy, J-U-D-I dot my last name, GALST, G-A-L-S as in Sam T, at henleyglobal.com, H-E-N-L-E-Y, global.com, or you can give me a call at 646-856-3712. Frazer Rice (27:29.406)Great stuff. We’re going to have that in the show notes too so people can look on webpage, etc. to get that information. Thank you so much. It’s something, you know, when you’re at the desk and dreaming wistfully about what life looks like, what you’re done working, if you’re done working, my calculation is I’ll be able to retire when I’m 127. But it’s great just to sort of envision what that looks like. the expertise is out there. Thanks for being on. Judi Galst (27:56.047)My pleasure. HENLEY & PARTNERS DAVID LESPERANCE ON CITIZENSHIP DIVERSIFICATION DAVID LESPERANCE ON US EXPATRIATION https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/ #familyoffices #citizenship #residency #residencybyinvestment #citizenshipbyinvestment #austriancitizenship #newzealand #portugalproperty #portugalresidency #uscitizens #stkitts #malta #eucitizenship #wealthcitizenship #Californiawealthtax #puertorico #puertoricotax

Adam kicks off this episode of Backroads & Bonfires talking about his adventures at the Downtown Sioux Falls Burger Battle! The boys discuss the absurdity of The Dodgers and MLB contracts. Adam begins a segment of Where Are They Now that derails into discussing today's movie & podcast climate. Burk's perfect song. In the meat, Mm!, the boys reminisce on the era that was MTV. Adam starts with some MTV fun facts and moments before the guys rank their top 5 favorite MTV music videos from the glory days. The 90s quick hitter takes us back to Woodstock 99 and the most iconic music entrance to ever exist. 

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Gissele: Today we’ll be chatting with Deidre Harris, who is a national leadership in highly effective teams development trainer and coach. She supports educational programs looking to enhance their administrative staff’s leadership skills and their teaching teams levels of effectiveness. Gissele: Please join me in welcoming Deidre. Deidre: Hi. Gissele: Hi. Hello. Welcome to the show. Oh, Deidre: thank you for inviting me. Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for being here. This is definitely a topic of interest for me. I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you got into this work. Deidre: Oh my gosh. To make a long story, very short that I’ve just been working in the education field for over 35 years [00:01:00] and through all of my very. Deidre: Various different positions. You know, leadership has just been coming up over and over and over again. And, and what does that look like? As a teacher working with children or as an assistant supporting that teacher or as a director or principal supporting staff. And so no matter what position I was in or what I was doing, leadership was just always, at the foundation of everything we did. So as I stepped out to do my own work, it just kept coming up more and more, and so I said, okay, there’s a need. Let me get out there and help to address it. Gissele: Wonderful. Wonderful. And what were some of the biggest leadership challenges you saw in the education system? Deidre: Well, gosh, I have to start with myself, Gissele right? So how did leadership show up in me? And a lot of times we kind of think about it and put it under the category of professionalism, but leadership. Actually goes [00:02:00] beyond professionalism to to be professional, to to show up with that hat, to do the work that you are hired to do in a manner that you know, that gives great outcomes for everybody. Deidre: That’s just one piece of it. When I go in and I talk about leadership, it’s really about mindset. And so I actually had to work on my own set. Who am I as a leader? And how do I get to show up in that leadership to, you know, to actually, again, get those outcomes that I’m looking for. And so, as I was, you know, as I started doing this work among myself, like I mentioned earlier, I started seeing it. Deidre: Elsewhere. And what I notice is that again, well, the biggest challenge, or the thing that I notice the most is everybody attributes leadership to a title. Gissele: Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, you’re Deidre: either your administrator or like I said before. You’re a director or a principal or, you know, sit [00:03:00] somewhere where leadership is part of your, your title in the sense of authority. Deidre: And so that’s, I would say one of my, my biggest challenges and, and what I noticed and again, what’s, you know, motivated me to do this work because leadership, we’re all leaders. You know, regardless of our title, regardless of what we do, and because I have that belief, then going out there and helping people to see their leadership and then to start standing in their leadership, that’s, that’s been my ongoing challenge in work. Gissele: Hmm. Deidre: Yeah. Gissele: Thank you for that. Thank you. and I really appreciate that you said that you know, everyone or anyone is a leader, right? Including the children. And so as teachers who, step up into their own leadership can then model that for the kids themselves. But the school system isn’t always sort of designed that way. Gissele: Where leadership [00:04:00] can come from anywhere. It is at times designed in a very hierarchical, as many other systems that we have. How has the structure been sort of a little bit of a hindrance or help, around leadership? Deidre: Well, you know, I would say it’s definitely a hindrance or, a challenge, a barrier, and again, you nailed it. Deidre: The education field is very hierarchy driven. It’s very top down. We see that in our struggles with, being a teacher or wanting to be a teacher and having things. Put upon you that you have little to no control over and and hence some of the impact in terms of the severe teacher shortage that we’re in right now. Deidre: I mean, who wants to work under those demands. So absolutely. Going in and again, helping people to understand that when you take on and think about personal leadership, it takes you out of this space of feel, what I call victimhood [00:05:00] of feeling like, oh. I have no control, I have no influence. Deidre: I have no power. And really showing people just how much power they actually have, even when things are being put upon them. So how they address the situation, how do they stand up and use their voice? How do they actually go through and develop their skillsets? Those are things we all have Personal power. Deidre: Over and agency. And so therefore, we can stand in our leadership regardless of what’s going on around us. And in fact, when we’re truly grounded in our leadership, the outside world tends to impact us less. Meaning it’s not like things don’t happen, but our response, we tend to be more responsive and less reactive. Deidre: Yeah. Right. And, and ultimately that’s the goal. Gissele: And what you said is so, so important because I think you’re right. There’s times when we feel [00:06:00] helpless and so if you, if we really can reflect on where’s my power in this moment, even if it’s just in how I react to this particular experience, then we’ll feel more powerful then we feel like we’ll have more leadership Gissele: I just wanted to go back to your point about this this sort of shortage for teachers. Do you think that sort of the lack of funding or the lack of like, the amount of money that teachers are getting paid, it might be contributing? Because right now the cost of living seems to be not necessarily reflecting what people’s salaries are. Deidre: Absolutely Deidre: So wages and salaries are certainly part of that. And also, I mean, there’s a disparity even within the education field. So if you’re if you are part of a school district, then your salary tends to be higher. You have access to more resources. Including additional education that, you know, can be subsidized as well as benefits.[00:07:00] Deidre: But if you’re in early childhood, which is where I spend a lot of my time, where we’re working with teachers who are with infants, toddlers, and preschoolers, many of them are in community schools and don’t have the same system set up. So their wages, their benefits, their resources are even less. And yet the expectations for their education are the same and we know how ex. Deidre: Expensive it is for college, right. To get that degree. And so even in early education, you need to have a degree. So now we’re asking people to take on a lot of debt, right? Yeah. Because most of us, how many of us can afford paying for it outright? So we’re taking on a lot of debt and coming out with very low wages. Deidre: Which means that, I mean, just the cost of living, but those dreams like owning a house, right? Or you know, things like that, providing for your family get whittled way down because of the amount of debt that you’re already coming out with. [00:08:00] And so, absolutely, that has a lot to do with the field. And as I mentioned earlier, again, because a lot of things are so top down driven, they’re, a lot of things, again, I use the word put upon because it is directed by people sometimes outside of the field who Have little understanding or have an expectation of an outcome and say, this is what you know we want you to do and this is how you, we want you to do it. All of that decreases the, motivation for becoming a teacher because they actually have taken the art away from it, and I don’t think people see, you know, realize that teaching is both the science. Deidre: And in art. Mm-hmm. And so we can go in and deliver a curriculum and the curriculum is the science part, but how we do it when we do it to, you know, to what degree we do it, what strategies are we doing when that’s the art piece. And many times things are so [00:09:00] structured that the art goes away. It, it’s no longer fun. Gissele: Yeah. I completely agree Absolutely. Yeah. sometimes I think to myself, we kind of live in a topsy-turvy world, right? Like, think about the people that make millions of dollars. Not that we should take anything away from people to play, football and movie stars Gissele: Wonderful. You know, you’re allowed your abundance, but important roles such as teaching and nursing they’re paid such, such a base level and it just doesn’t work. And we’re kind of in an interesting time. Gissele: I see it because we kind of have this gap. there was the baby boomers and people of my generation and even younger that kind of got sold a bag of goods, right? and it sort of worked for us during our time you could go to a good school, graduate, get a good job, get all the things that you thought you were going to get, but the new generation. Gissele: Even if they graduate, they come out with huge debt. They don’t have jobs that are going to pay them because some of these companies now are just wanting to not pay [00:10:00] benefits, not just give what people deserve. Mm-hmm. And so then you see this new generation that is like, I’m out. Gissele: Yes. I’m gonna live off grid. I’m gonna make money on social media. I’m just not gonna do those things. Yes. And so something’s gonna have to change, right? Like, I think we’re gonna have to prioritize. These sorts of positions and go back to the art and go back to the acknowledging the value that is being offered by these positions it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Gissele: I mean, these people can still say in their abundance, but the abundance of teachers and nurses should be elevated from my perspective. Deidre: Yes. I totally agree. I mean, and you know, we could spend weeks here on this topic alone. Right. just thinking about, you know, what are our priorities? Deidre: And when I go back and, and we know this because, [00:11:00] I mean, the research has come out over and over and over again, the return on investment, so. So I’m gonna bring it back to education because the return on investment, when we invest in our children, it’s something like 16 to 18% or times what the initial investment was. Deidre: So if we were to say to someone, Hey, if you invest, you know so much, you know, a hundred dollars and you’re gonna get a eight, 16 to 18% return, everyone would flock to that. Right? Yeah. Everyone would be buying shares in that company. So it’s really interesting how we look at it, the investment in that way. Deidre: Yet we don’t see the same type of investment in our children. And yet, look at our role today. Right. I mean, yeah. Yes. There’s great things happening and yes, there are, things happening. that we’ve never seen before in our lifetime. Yeah. And to go back to what you were saying, Gissele [00:12:00] this generation is the first generation that has done not as well as their parents’ generation. Deidre: So when you’re talking about they’re coming out with debt, that we have so many students coming out and having to live with their families because the jobs just aren’t out there paying what they would need to survive with inflation, or they have this huge mountain of debt that, you know, that they have to get up underneath of, and all of these other things. Deidre: So we get to. To look at that because what are we setting up for the generations who are, coming after us? what are we leaving them? Gissele: Yeah. and I totally agree with that, but, I have to reflect and I do believe that we’ve accepted certain things over time. Like one of the things I would hear often again and again is that, people. Gissele: Believe that like doing good, you don’t have to accept that much pay. Right? It should be free or it should be low. So I feel like there’s an element well, we’ve done this to ourselves, [00:13:00] and I feel like now is the time that we’re like no more. Because Gissele: that really allows you to then do more of that important work. there doesn’t have to be a trade off between you doing good and allowing your abundance to come into you. But I feel like we have, ’cause that was the one thing that I always heard, like people that are doing good and helping people, oh, it can’t cost that much. Gissele: It has to be free. And it’s like, okay, so this is why we’re in the situation we’re in. But like you said, we have power. We just have to say, well, we are not willing to take this low pay anymore. It’s done. So either pay us what we’re worth, or you’re gonna have systems shut down. Mm-hmm. Gissele: Because they’re not gonna have anyone to do the job. What are your thoughts? Deidre: so Gissele you take us right into the leadership mindset, and that’s why I’ve started doing that work. For just that reason is because you even said it. Deidre: It not that I wanna move into blaming or shaming, and yet we do get to [00:14:00] own that. When whoever we are in the helping field, whether it’s coaching in whatever area, or education or health, whatever that field is, it’s this idea of our money mindset. Right. Like, you know, money is the, the root of all evil or whatever. Deidre: We grew up with that somehow, and you said it, that somehow that when we attach money to helping others, now we’re wrong or we’re greedy, or we should do it from the love of our heart. And basically what we’re being asked to do is to subsidize. Other people’s wellbeing. And I think we have to really understand that, that really we’re being asked to subsidize, you know? Deidre: Somebody else’s health or somebody’s else is fitness or somebody else’s, you know, whatever that is. And so, like you said, when when we step into that leadership mindset and say, this is who [00:15:00] I am and this is how I wanna show up in the world, as soon as we fully own that, then the money doesn’t quite become an issue. Deidre: Or we start moving out of that and we start charging what we’re worth. Mm-hmm. And so that right there is, is just really huge. And again, as I bring it back to the education field, it not that you’re gonna go out and and demand a salary increase, but as you show up and, and we start advocating for ourselves and say. Deidre: Look, the, this is what we’re talking about. here’s your return on the investment. It FARs outweigh what, what you’re paying me. We get to start equalizing or leveling things up. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna disagree, Deidre. I do think that people should go out and ask for an increase the cost of living is so far above, and somebody did the numbers, I think it was on TikTok. Gissele: People are now spending almost like. 75% on their salary on living, [00:16:00] which doesn’t leave a lot to save. Whereas, you know, like many moons ago, it’s only about half. And so people were able to save for a house. We’re able to do all of these things. But let’s talk about worth. And I think that’s the thing. Gissele: Historically, we have not really valued our worth. I heard these two people talking about, how, they expect people to work nine to five, but they said come in for an eight o’clock meeting. Yes. and the person said, no, sorry, I’ve got this going on. Gissele: I can’t make it. And it was a huge deal. and they were, criticizing them and ostracizing them for doing stuff outside of work hours. And I think for many, many years we accepted that we thought it made us valuable and that somehow there’ll be a return on investment and it has not. Gissele: All it’s done is, oh look, we get a praise. And just praise is just not gonna cut it anymore. Which is why I think this younger generation is keep your praise. Yep. I’m gonna keep my money or I’m gonna keep my time. Right. And so I do [00:17:00] think it’s the time now to truly say, okay, what am I worth? And this is what I desire in terms of income. Gissele: What are your thoughts? Deidre: and I agree with that. So let me just go back and clarify. Deidre: ’cause I’m not saying don’t go out and advocate for yourself and financially, it’s just one way to do it. Mm-hmm. When you’re talking about stepping into your self worth. And again, the key is to own it. Yeah. So when you’re in your leadership, right and you’re owning your worth, that’s when the advocacy really happens. Deidre: And here’s what often happens is, is people will say I want you to do for me what I won’t even do for myself. Deidre: Fair Gissele: enough. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Deidre: So, when we’re grounded, when we’re in our leadership and we’re presenting ourselves as leaders, then that’s what I mean by that. The advocacy comes and absolutely, we still get to have those discussions and fight for [00:18:00] equal pay by all means, and not just as a group, but in. Deidre: Individuals, because not every person is equal. Right? Yeah. And what value we have is going to be different based on the work that we’re doing and who we’re doing that work with. So we get to be really clear about our value, and many of us aren’t. Yeah. So it’s really hard to go out and say, you know, I think I should have more money and not be able to answer the question of, well, what are you bringing to the table? Deidre: Hmm. And that’s where many of us are, as opposed to, you know, coming in and say, wow, when I come in, I’m able to do this, this, this, this, and this, and the benefits of this is this, this, this, this, and this. Now we have something to talk about and negotiate and discuss with. That’s us being in our leadership. Gissele: Mm, I understand. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Deidre: yeah. Gissele: [00:19:00] Thank you for that. And speaking of different values, Let’s talk about compassion in the education system and the challenges that may present themselves in terms of managing behavior problems and then where leadership would fit in those circumstances. Deidre: Yeah, this is me sighing Gissele becauseyou know, I’m a little speechless and the reason for that is because you would think of all fields. All fields, or at least like you said, one of the helping fields that compassion would be embedded. And I have to say it’s not now there’s gonna be, you know, listeners out there that are gonna disagree with me, you’re probably gonna get a flood. Deidre: What is she talking about? That’s okay. You know, where I work, there’s, you know, compassion, but I just mean generally speaking that. Again, if we’re talking about, say, teachers with children, it’s not that teachers don’t have compassion for children, but they’re fried. Yeah. They’re [00:20:00] burnt out because of the, the workload and what they’re asked to do. Deidre: Now you take workload and then you bring in children who have lots of challenges on a lot of different areas, whether it’s just, you know learning. Disabilities that they have. And so it, you know, it puts additional workload on the teacher to figure out how to support them, especially if they’re not able to receive services around that. Deidre: You have children coming in who definitely are coming from circumstances that are traumatic or neglectful. So now you have a lot of mental health that teachers are having to deal with and trying to support children in order for them to learn. And then in addition to that, now you have teachers being attacked both verbally and physically. Deidre: Yeah. By very young children all the way through you know, into our high schools and our colleges. So much to the point where, where we’re talking about, you know, teachers carrying [00:21:00] guns in school in order to protect themselves Wow. Or be in a position to. To protect children if somebody comes in. Deidre: Wow. So, so when you’re thinking about all of these pressures mm-hmm. That are there, it’s really hard to be compassionate. So it’s not that our teachers, our directors, our principals don’t want to be compassionate. It’s really hard when we have all of these external pressures. It, it just truly is now. Deidre: And then on top of that, think about again, just having compassion for ourselves, and that’s where that leadership comes in. So I always talk a lot about practicing grace. Gissele: Yeah. Deidre: So the practicing grace is for ourselves. And, and that gets to be embedded as part of our leadership. So, I mean, there’s great websites out there like I think it was one called self-compassion dot org. Deidre: So if anybody, you [00:22:00] know, wants to check that. That out. A wonderful woman who’s been in the field for a very long time provides lots of free resources on there. I tell everybody about it all the time because it’s something that we do get to practice. It’s a muscle. Having grace for oneself is a muscle that we get to build and we get to pour into to keep that muscle strong because we are typically our own worst enemies. Deidre: Right. You’ve heard that, right? that inner critic or that self critic, that voice in your head that comes up when you do something and they might say, you know, or You made a mistake. Well, that was stupid. Well, how dumb was that? Or that voice that comes up and says you know, who do you think you are? Deidre: You can’t do this. Keep your mouth shut. You don’t have anything to offer. That’s the voice that we’re talking about that we get to actually look at and say thank you. But no thank you. [00:23:00] I don’t need that advice today. I am practicing grace. Practicing grace means that we are owning, that we are fully human. Deidre: And so I say that as a as a recovering perfectionist. Mm-hmm. So I own that. I have to practice every single day to not get things to such a high degree. And then, you know, where I’m not getting things done or driving myself crazy. Instead, I get to practice grace and say, I’m human. It’s okay if I make a mistake. Deidre: Now, if I’m making that same mistake repeatedly, that’s. great feedback that I wanna go in and, and look at that. So I’m not saying, you know, go out and just be a hot mess all of the time, but just owning, you know, it’s not gonna be an if, it’s gonna be a when we’re gonna, we’re gonna make mistakes and if we’re going to learn and grow and practice that self-compassion, we need to practice grace. Deidre: Giving ourselves grace. [00:24:00] Yeah. And as soon as we’re able to really be compassionate. Then we become really genuine in stepping into compassion for others. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Absolutely, absolutely. I don’t think people realize that that critical voice, like internally is how they talk to other people as well. Some of the most critical people that I have met, that’s how they talk to themselves as well. Gissele: And so, here we talk about, when you. Fill up your bucket, right, and you give to love and compassion towards yourself, then you can give to others from your overflow, right? Yes. Then you have more than enough and when you give yourself love and compassion. You give yourself what you’re looking for externally. Gissele: You don’t need people to be different. You don’t need them to be a specific way. And so you can have that grace for yourself and other people. Mm-hmm. One of the things that I found, I was thinking about what you were saying around, you know, teachers carrying gun and so on is the role of fear [00:25:00] and the lack of. Gissele: Emotional regulation that has been taught, and I think that’s what compassion helps us do is regulate those difficult feelings. Mm-hmm. how has fear really impacted teachers’ abilities to really be in their leadership in those moments? Deidre: Well, fear shows up in a lot of different ways, and we know that, you know, fear is actually a secondary emotion, meaning something else is Happening and the result or the symptom is fear. So one of the things we get to look at is, what am I afraid of? So if I think about myself and me, as a perfectionist am I afraid of, of failing? Am I afraid of what people might think of me? I mean, it’s gonna look a little different for everyone, and that’s part of the self-discovery process is it’s what am I afraid of? Deidre: Because that’s really what I wanted. To look at. If I’m just saying, you know, I’m afraid, then [00:26:00] that’s, an outcome, that’s a symptom that’s telling us. Right? Yeah. And that kind of goes back to what you were saying about our emotions is that our emotions is our body’s feedback to us that something is going on. Deidre: And so listening to that feedback is critical to help us figure out What is it that’s going on? And you also said that earlier when you said that this isn’t something that’s taught. And so while we’re starting to do that, you know, we call it, you know, social emotional learning or development. We do that, you know, in our schools. Deidre: And that’s becoming prevalent again, especially after COVID. What people don’t realize is that our corporations are actually spending billions of dollars on training their people in emotional intelligence, which basically is social emotional development for grownups, right? So how do we manage those big emotions? Deidre: Right. [00:27:00] Anger, frustration, fear, resentment, jealousy. I mean, we can go on and on and on. How do we manage them? How do we regulate and how do we look at it in relationship to those people around me? So when I’m having. These emotions. Who else is it impacting? Because I, I get to look at that. And so one of the quotes that I absolutely love out there is live in the impact, not the intention. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Deidre: Yeah. And that’s huge, right? Because often we say, oh, well I didn’t mean to, or I intended to. and my question is, well, how did that turn out? And if we’re talking about something that, you know, didn’t turn out the way we expected to, that’s great feedback for us. That we get to go back and change or shift something and try it again to get closer to the outcome that we were wanting. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah, and I love how you frame that, and even this in what you had [00:28:00] said before, because there’s such an element of acceptance and not judgment. Even when you said, you know, I keep making the same mistake. If you keep doing the same behavior, you might not be aware that it’s serving you somehow. Gissele: Sometimes we may not like our behavior but it’s serving us ’cause otherwise we wouldn’t keep doing it. So maybe there’s a subconscious thing that we need to look at. So I love how you frame that in terms of, you know what, so these are just messages that we need to understand then, that are reflecting or mirroring back to us. Gissele: What we may need to heal, what we might need to address, which I think is so, so pivotal because we get stuck behind the shame, the criticism, the guilt, all of those difficult emotions and can’t get past them in order to be able to then to really understand the lesson. And I think that’s one of the reasons why we’re kind of in a little bit of a cancel culture because we can’t deal with just a little, those difficult feelings. Gissele: That was my nice way of saying like, what’s going [00:29:00] on? Because we can’t deal with those feelings of being triggered, of being in conversation when we disagree. Yes. And so how do we lean into those difficult feelings so that then we could lean into each other and not away from one another? What are your thoughts? Deidre: Yes. So I call that I have a problem and I want you to fix it. That’s, that’s exactly what it is. Right? Right. Because when I’m triggered, that’s my problem. But we’re so used to saying things like you make me so mad. Yeah. Right. And attributing our emotions to somebody else. and as soon as we do that, then we place right blame and shame and guilt and all of that judgment on somebody else as opposed to, and this is, it’s a radical thought, but yet it’s also a very freeing thought as opposed to owning it. Deidre: Our totally ourselves. Again, taking this back into our leadership when [00:30:00] I fully own my emotions. I am mad now that you know Gissele, you said something or you did something. And first thought is it made me mad, as opposed to, and I got mad. Yeah. So that’s feedback for me that there’s work that I get to do. Deidre: ’cause I am the one that’s mad. It’s crazy for me to say, Gissele you gotta change what you said or change what you did. So I don’t get mad anymore. Right. And what people don’t. Absolutely. Yeah. But, but we’ve been trained to do that. Yeah. And what people don’t realize is that as soon as you do that, you actually give all your power away to somebody. Deidre: Correct. ’cause now they have the power to, do this and make you do this, or do this and make you do this. And, and as soon as you see that and realize that’s where the freeing part comes in, because now, okay, if I’m fully owning my emotions, my feelings, my my [00:31:00] triggers, then. I now have the ability to change and shift it. Deidre: Yeah. And it’s doesn’t rely on anyone else. Gissele: Absolutely. And as soon Deidre: as that happens, like you said, that, you know, the, the cancel culture will start going away. It’s like, oh my gosh. Nobody can make mistakes anymore. Yeah. Nobody can make human or your whole life will be wiped out. Gissele: Yeah,I completely agree with what you said because I truly. Gissele: I truly believe that if something triggers me, I immediately think, okay, what’s what’s going on for me? Like what’s, because if somebody says something that is hurtful, I’m like, oh, that’s where they’re, but if I get triggered by it, that’s an immediate sign that there’s something going on within me because why am I giving that thought? Gissele: The power. Deidre: Yes. Gissele: but. We don’t wanna accept responsibility because then we are responsible for what we have created and therefore, and it expands that we’re responsible for everything we’ve created. [00:32:00] Yes. And then sometimes that’s hard to admit but like you said, it’s the first step towards making a change and stepping up into our leadership. Gissele: Right. Deidre: Yes. and you’re absolutely right about that. And that is part of that, that is really scary. ’cause like you said, as soon as I realize, okay, I’m being triggered, there’s something going on, I get to do some some work around that. So I always advocate for network. Right. Develop your network, develop your inner circle so that there are people around to help support you so that, you know, you can see and kind of process through this in whatever way, shape, or form that looks like. Deidre: But going in and, and understanding that you’re triggered and owning it is kind of like okay, I have work to do here and as soon as. You recognize It. It’s like, oh, okay, okay, I can do something around it. And then you look around and you’re [00:33:00] like, oh crap, I got a whole bunch of stuff I gotta clean up. Deidre: That’s where the work begins. It’s like now I gotta go in and and clean up. Right? So if I haven’t set boundaries right, really good boundaries. ’cause you talked about that a little bit earlier. And now I have all of these appointments and I’m overwhelmed. Okay. To stay in integrity, I’m gonna follow through, and that’s me cleaning up. Deidre: And how can I make sure that I don’t continue to do that for myself? But meanwhile, I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta clean that up, right? Yeah. Gissele: That we got in the shed that we don’t wanna see, or in the basement that we’re like, I’m gonna check that out later. In order for you to change your life, you have to look at that. Gissele: and I do think that what’s happening in the world is kind of like all of those boxes coming out and being like, hello, remember me? Deidre: Oh Gissele: yeah. But they’re coming up to be healed. Right? They’re coming up to be seen and then reone. Deidre: [00:34:00] Yes. Gissele: So, it’s a good thing. But like you said, it’s a scary thing. Gissele: because then nobody else is at fault, right? Then we can’t say, hey, it’s their fault. Right? And that causes us shame and guilt and all these difficult emotions, which we of course are, you know, managing with compassion. Let’s talk about the importance of boundaries in terms of having more compassion for oneself. Gissele: How does, how does having boundaries really reinforce that love for ourselves? Deidre: Yes, and you know, Brene Brown, who, many of us know and love, does a lot of work in this area, so you can check out some of her resources around it. But when we’re talking about, true self-compassion. It goes hand in hand with boundaries. Deidre: You can’t be self-compassionate and have no boundaries. Yeah, because basically what you’re doing is you’re literally giving all of yourself away, right? Yeah. Well, if you’re giving all yourself away, where’s the self in that? And [00:35:00] this is hard for many, many of us. And you know, myself included, and it’s going to always be ongoing work. Deidre: So when we talk about, you know, boundaries, and again, in having that self-compassion, you said it earlier, we wanna give from our overflow, right? So whether you think of it as a bucket or whether you think of it as a well, or however you think about it, you wanna. But pour into yourself so much that, like you said, you were giving from your overflow. Deidre: Not the bucket itself. The bucket is you. Yeah. And so it goes back to what they always keep telling us on the plane. And there’s a really, really important reason they tell. Yeah. Was on the plane. Yeah. Is you right? If you’re sitting with somebody, you know that you need to help you give the oxygen mask first because if you don’t, you’re gonna end up passing out and both of you or all of you are dead. Deidre: Yeah. Andwe don’t think about that in our day-to-day lives, [00:36:00] and we keep. Pulling from our internal wells, right? Or our internal bucket. And we wonder why we’re overwhelmed or burnt down and fried. So when we’re self-compassionate, self-compassion is really about saying no, right? and it’s not no to everybody and no to everything, but it’s being discerning. Deidre: So let’s set up some criteria And if you’re not comfortable with saying no, then I suggest setting up criteria for what you’re gonna say yes to. ’cause some of us aren’t quite in that place where we can, oh, I don’t like to say no, we don’t feel good. just. Means we get to do work there. And in the meantime, let’s work on criteria for saying yes. Deidre: What does yes feel like for you? And let’s be really clear so that when things come in, you take it through this framework of your yes. Yes. Gissele: Yes. I love that. I actually have a reframe what I say sometimes when I say it, I say, mentally says, [00:37:00] A no to you is a yes to myself. Yes. Because I’m like, okay, so I’m saying no to you because I can’t, it’s either not aligning with my values or I’m trying to scrape things for me. Gissele: Nevermind giving it. You. And so a no to you is a yes for me. but for those of you who might not be comfortable with that, I like. The thinking about, what are the things that I can say yes to? What are the things that really align with my highest joy and my values and everything else that I want to do? Deidre: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And, and again, just thinking about that, right? It’s kind of like this idea of you know, who do I wanna be? And let’s face it when you’re showing up because you said yes when you really wanted to say no. That’s where the resentment comes in. Yeah. In fact, that’s one of the characteristics that there’s a boundary crossing. Deidre: Whether somebody crossed it or you, you gave that boundary away or you weren’t consistent in it, is when [00:38:00] you’re feeling resentful. That’s typically means, oh, boundary issue here. So, you know, just a thought out there for your listeners, but you know, you’re going to show up all cranked or, resentful Deidre: So is that who you want to be when you show up and you’re around people and, you’re precious again, it goes back to, Deidre: Self-worth. you’re just so absolutely precious. And because you are so precious, you get to again, be really discerning who you get to share yourself with. Gissele: Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for saying that, that was so good. I I was thinking about, I’m in my general life, I’m very good at saying no when I don’t mean no, except for my kids. Gissele: but you’re right. when I say yes, and I mean, no, I do it in a resentful manner. Like I’ll say yes, but I’m like, I’ll cough and puff, and I’m like, okay, this is not how I wanted to do this. So that’s one of the areas that I’m working on is really saying no with my [00:39:00] kids. Gissele: Right? Yeah. Because I just have this. Desire to give them everything. And, I just love them so much but at the same time, I’m not teaching them to honor their boundaries when I don’t honor my boundaries. Deidre: Yes. Gissele: And so, and I Deidre: say that all the time, Yeah. No, I, I’m just agreeing with you. Right. Just raising my, own kids. Deidre: It’s like, you know, what do we want from them? And just remember we’re modeling 24 7. Yeah. So if we’re not, you know, honoring our boundaries and sharing with them And saying, no, I can’t do this, and this is why. Right. to help our children understand the why. Deidre: Because, you know, because I just have a really, hard week this week and I just don’t have, the energy. And if I go, I’m just gonna be really cranky and nasty and that’s not how I wanna be with you. I wanna go and just. Really enjoy myself. Can we make a rain check? [00:40:00] Yeah, I’m just making stuff up about No, no, this is, people need to write Gissele: this down, but Deidre: great. Deidre: What’s a great thing about a podcast, right? It’s recorded. You can go back and And listen to it. Exactly. You can go back Gissele: and listen to it. Yeah. Deidre: Yes, Gissele: absolutely. Absolutely. Deidre: But add the, the why there so that we’re helping our children to understand why we do what we’re doing, so that as they. Grow up and learn, they can start using again that same level of discernment and decision making and thought process for themselves. Gissele: Agreed. Agreed. And for me, I think it goes back to being socialized to think what makes a good mother. Being a good mother is an important thing for me, like making sure that my kids are, happy, healthy, provided for you know, it’s one of my dreams I guess, that my kids are, well, that they’re supported, that they feel loved, that they feel accepted, that they feel like they belong, that they have a safe space and that they have [00:41:00] what they need. Gissele: but I’ve had some misconceptions as to what that means. It doesn’t mean I deplete myself to give to them. It means that I, again, give from their overflow and show them how to fill their own cups, right? Mm-hmm. But I’ve had to unlearn that. I’ve had to unlearn that and. Gissele: Realize that they weren’t the problem. It was me like in the words of Taylor Swift, I’m the problem. It’s me. But in a compassionate way, obviously. Deidre: Yes. Gissele: Well, Deidre: well, and you’re talking about feedback, right? When you’re talking about that compassionate, it’s not blame or shame. Yeah. It’s, oh, this is feedback for me. Deidre: Yeah. So it gives me the opportunity to shift and change how I show up in the future. That’s self-compassion. Gissele: Yeah. Agree. Agree. So we’re coming up to the end. I have two more questions for you. The first one is, what is your definition of unconditional love? Deidre: I’m just gonna pick up right on self-compassion. Deidre: When we’re [00:42:00] truly grounded in it, then our love for ourselves and then for others becomes unconditional beautiful. So Im gonna pair those two together. Gissele: Beautiful. Where can people find you? Where can they come work with you? Where can they just reach out to you? So just let people know where they can. Gissele: Sure, find yourself. Deidre: So they can find me up on my website, which is www.teamagreements.com. Literally you spell it how it says team agreements.com or if you wanna reach out to me by email, it would be Deidre, D-E-I-D-R-E dot Harris, H-A-R-R-I-S at. Team agreements.com. Nice. Beautiful. And I’d love to hear from your listeners. Gissele: Oh yeah, definitely. Thank you so much, for this amazing conversation, I mean we could speak for weeks. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and I hope people do reach out to you. And join us once again for another episode of The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Deidre: Thank you. [00:43:00] Bye.

E hoje é dia de MacMagazine no Ar!

Heated Rivalry is only the tip of a very sexy ice(hockey)berg. Straight women make up at least 60% of the audience of the booming MM (male to male) queer romance book market. Why? Holly Wainwright, Jessie Stephens and Emily Vernem unpack the theories behind the biggest TV hit of the Summer. Also, no, you're not imagining it. Every streaming show you watch is talking to you like you're a little bit... dumb. Matt Damon knows why. And, everyone has a venting friend. Sometimes, everyone is a venting friend. But now, 'venting' has been labelled toxic friendship behaviour. We want to know who we can vent to about that. Plus, our recommendations. Find them below. SUBSCRIBE here: Support independent women's media Recommendations Em recommends Chicago Fire the bingeable TV show that she's currently obsessed with. Jessie recommends underpants. Yes, treat yourself to an underwear refresh. Holly recommends the move Hamnet that was released in cinemas on January 15. What To Listen To Next: Listen to our latest episode: Jessie's Twins Update & What We Really Did Over The Holidays Listen: Blake Lively, Taylor Swift, Revealing Texts & A Masterclass In Awkward Conversations Listen: Brooklyn Beckham, That ‘Inappropriate’ Dance & The Downfall Of A Family Brand Listen: Brooklyn Beckham Goes Nuclear: An Emergency Meeting Listen: The Superstar Podcaster Who’s Been ‘Red-Pilled’ & Was JLo Really That Rude? Listen: We’ve Entered The Year Of Friction-maxxing Listen: Our Best Heated Rivalry Theory & Taylor Swift's Mum Listen: A Spectacular Writers' Festival Collapse & The Jennifer Lawrence Dog Drama Listen: Why Mia Really Left... And Why She's Back Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts Discover more Mamamia Podcasts here including the very latest episode of Parenting Out Loud, the parenting podcast for people who don't listen to... parenting podcasts. We’re giving away a Your Reformer Pilates bed (worth $3,400) Subscribe to enter MOVE by Mamamia is the app that helps you fit movement into your every day. Whether you have 10 minutes, or 45, we've got the workout that fits your time, space and body. Get $20 off an annual subscription until the end of January when you use code OUTLOUD at checkout. Start your free trial today. SUBSCRIBE here: Support independent women's media Watch Mamamia Out Loud: Mamamia Out Loud on YouTube What to read: Heated Rivalry forced me to ask myself a fundamental question. You're thinking it, too.' Matt Damon and Ben Affleck's new Netflix thriller will keep you guessing until the very last second. The insane true story that inspired Ben Affleck and Matt Damon's new crime drama. 'Hamnet is the buzziest film of the year you're probably too scared to see. Allow me to change your mind.' Holly Out Loud on Substack THE END BITS: Check out our merch at MamamiaOutLoud.com GET IN TOUCH: Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at outloud@mamamia.com.au Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message. Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show. Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud CREDITS: Hosts: Emily Vernem, Jessie Stephens & Holly Wainwright Group Executive Producer: Ruth Devine Executive Producer: Sasha Tannock Audio Producer: Leah Porges Video Producer: Josh Green Junior Content Producer: Tessa KotowiczBecome a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You built an agency you’re proud of. So why does your website still feature that glowing tribute to someone you wouldn’t recommend today, or explain services you stopped offering three years ago? In this episode, Chip and Gini tackle the unsexy but critical task of auditing your agency’s website content. They share practical approaches for identifying what needs updating, what deserves deletion, and how to prioritize your efforts when you’re staring down hundreds (or thousands) of outdated pages. The conversation covers everything from quick wins—like updating your homepage and key pages—to strategic decisions about high-traffic content that no longer serves your business. Gini shares her process for using tools like Screaming Frog to audit content systematically, while Chip emphasizes the importance of focusing on human users rather than chasing every algorithm change. They also dive into the balance between refreshing old content and creating new material, with specific guidance on when each approach makes sense. The episode wraps with a reminder that consistency matters more than perfection—especially when AI is increasingly using your bio and content to determine whether to recommend you. If your website is starting to feel like a liability rather than an asset, this episode offers a manageable roadmap to get it back on track without turning it into a year-long project. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “First and foremost, focus on the end user’s experience. And only after that, think about, okay, are there tweaks or additions I could make in order to help the search engines or the AI spiders or that kind of thing?” Gini Dietrich: “I would rather have accurate numbers so I know exactly what my pipeline looks like, my lead generation looks like, what my lead nurturing looks like, and be able to work it backwards.” Chip Griffin: “If you’re getting a lot of traffic to a page that either is not as relevant as it should be or not as accurate as it should be given the way the world has changed, you know, those are ones that you want to address.” Gini Dietrich: “AI notices inconsistencies. So if you are inconsistent across different websites, social media, all the places that you are online, you are not going to show up in AI answers no matter how good your content is.” Turn ideas into action Audit your homepage today. Open your website and read your homepage copy with fresh eyes—does it accurately reflect who you serve, what you do, and where your agency stands today? If not, block two hours this week to rewrite it. This is your most important page and the fastest way to stop misrepresenting your business. Check Google Analytics for your top 20 pages. Identify which pages drive the most traffic, then ask yourself if each one still serves your business or if you’re just attracting irrelevant visitors. Kill off pages that generate traffic but don’t support your current positioning—inflated vanity metrics aren’t worth the confusion. Ensure bio consistency across platforms. Compare your bio on your website, LinkedIn, and other platforms where you appear. Make them consistent (accounting for character limits) so AI can confidently present you as an option when people search for expertise in your area. Related Real talk about agency websites How to think about your agency's website View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m old. Gini Dietrich: Yes, you are. Chip Griffin: But you know what else is old? Gini Dietrich: What else? Chip Griffin: Some of the content on my website. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, sure. Mine too. Yeah. Chip Griffin: It’s, it’s one of the perils of having been around for a while. Gini Dietrich: Yes, indeed. Chip Griffin: Both as a human, as a business. And so we have a lot of content out there on the website that maybe isn’t as current as we’d like it to be. Some of it I haven’t looked at in many years, so I don’t even know if it’s up to date or not. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: I’m sure that many of our listeners have content on their website or maybe entire websites that are old and out of date. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So my question to you is, how should we be thinking about this kind of, how do we deal with this problem? Or we, we can’t just spend, I mean, I, I don’t know about you, but my website’s got over a thousand different pieces of content on it. Oh yeah. Now I think most of our listeners probably don’t have websites with quite that much content on it, but some do, and even if you’ve only got a couple hundred, you know, that’s still a substantial body of content that you need to audit in some fashion. So what, what do you do about that? Gini Dietrich: You know, it’s funny, this conversation is happening right now because about a week ago, right after the holidays, I got an email from a friend that said, Hey, uh, I don’t know if you know this or not, but you have a blog post from, from 13 years ago, literally 13 years ago, praising Elon Musk. And I was like, well, let’s delete that! But like, I don’t know how she found that. She must have been searching on the site for something and found it. Right. So I think it’s important to do an audit and I did delete it. I moved it to the trash. But, I think it is important to do an audit. We have a client that said to us, we don’t think we need new content. We have plenty. And we went in and we’re like, okay, great. Let’s do an audit and see. And we audited it and they do have plenty of content, but the most recent is two and a half years old. So one of the things that we’re working on with them right now, well, twofold. One is going through the audit that we did to see what needs to stay with an update, a refresh, and what should be deleted. There are lots of, there’s lot, there’s lots of content on their site. And actually this will appeal to many of you listeners too. There’s content on their website that has some great SEO value. You know, showing up first in Google results and things like that. So you don’t wanna get rid of that content, but it probably needs a good update. It probably needs to be refreshed. It probably needs new quotes, new experts, new expertise, new statistics, whatever it happens to be. So that’s what I would do. It’s pretty easy. We use, Screaming Frog to do the audit, so it’ll, it will look at your entire website and then give you an Excel list of all of your links, and then you can go and you can tell it I want dates and topic and all that kind of stuff. And you can go through that fairly easily to say, this is old, we don’t need that. Move that to a different tab. This is good stuff. We don’t wanna lose it. And then I would compare that to what you’re keep, I would compare what you’re keeping to do a Google search. Are you show, are those links showing up in Google? And I would also ask AI. Are you showing, is AI showing that content in its answers. So you probably, I would venture to guess, like you and me, we, it would be a really big undertaking ’cause we have years and years of content. But for most agency owners, I would guess it’s probably a, I dunno… And you can use AI to help you, but it’s probably a two or three hour thing that you can split up over several weeks, right? To get it done. But 100% you should be, you should have an up update up to date website overall, and you should be updating content so that it’s refreshed, not necessarily the URL, but updating the content inside the article or the blog post or the page or whatever it happens to be. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I, I think the advice to sort of just kind of, you know, go through a list of it is a really good starting point. Whether you use some third party tool, or frankly, if your website isn’t too huge, if you just go into WordPress and start scrolling back through the pages and posts. Mm-hmm. And just looking at the headlines, it at least, you know, things that are obviously in need of help will jump out at you. Yeah. Or you know, that you praise somebody that doesn’t make sense or whatever. And, and we have to keep in mind that, that sometimes that old content might be a year old, it might be 10 years old, right? It might still need some sort of an updating. The other thing that’s, that’s often helpful is just to go into, you know, something simple like your Google Analytics and just look at, you know, the top 20, 30, 40 pages in terms of traffic and just ask, are all of these pages the way I still want to present myself in whatever the current year is that you’re listening to us? Because, you know, that can be a really helpful way of prioritizing what you wanna address, what you wanna update. And particularly if you’re getting a lot of traffic to a page that either is not as relevant as it should be or not as accurate as it should be given the, the way the world has changed. You know, those are ones that you want to address. I, to me, one of the interesting cases is, you know what, and I’ve seen this a lot, and I, some of the organizations I’ve worked with have had this issue where you’ve got a page that gets a ton of traffic, but it’s frankly totally irrelevant to what they do today. Right. It’s still, it’s still an accurate bit of content, which is why it keeps getting traffic, you know, because it’s answering whatever question the searcher may have had, but it doesn’t really benefit the organization other than it does produce a fair amount of inbound traffic. So, to me, those are interesting cases. Trying to figure out what you do with those. And, if you talk to different SEO experts, you sometimes hear different bits of advice on this, right? Because some are like, well, you know, you, you’re still getting people clicking over to your site, and that’s a good signal for the search engines, so that’s good. The problem is if the signal is that you’re relevant for something that you really aren’t relevant for. Right. So, doesn’t really help you. My general inclination is if it’s completely irrelevant to what you do today, I would kill it off and sacrifice the traffic. But that’s, that’s my perspective on that. No, I totally agree with that. Either way you should make a conscious decision about it. Gini Dietrich: I totally agree with that because I think you’re right. If it’s not some, if it’s irrelevant, if you’re bringing irrelevant traffic to your website, your numbers are inflated. So I would rather have accurate numbers so I know exactly what my pipeline looks like, my lead generation looks like, what my lead nurturing looks like, and be able to work it backwards. Right. So I completely agree with you and like I said, I killed that article from 13 years ago. Because that’s not how I feel about that man anymore. So, yeah. At all. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Well, for, for many years on my personal blog, the highest trafficked post was one, was sort of a throwaway post I did on a camera backpack, that I got like 20 years ago. And it just, it scored, it turned out it was a popular model of the backpack, and so it got a ton of traffic from people who were considering buying it. Obviously that didn’t help me at all. Gini Dietrich: Not at all. Right. Chip Griffin: Because that, I mean, you know, I didn’t pitch camera backpacks or anything like that, you know, I didn’t sell ’em, I didn’t even have an affiliate link in or anything like that. So what, you know, what was the value of it? Pretty much nothing. You know, it felt nice to see all the spikes in traffic that it generated. Sure. Of course. But yeah. But it wasn’t particularly useful, so, and those are the kinds of things that, that many of us may, you know, maybe we just had a comment on our blog about some story of the day. And it just took off and for whatever reason still sticks around. But it’s not really what our agency is about, so doesn’t really help. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I would really look at, I mean, some of your ideas, especially if you don’t have a ton of content like we do going, just going through WordPress and looking to see. I would start with the content on your website specifically, what’s on your homepage? Does it represent who you are and what you stand for today? Does it accurately reflect where you are today? I would venture to guess the answer for most of us is no. I would start there at least with the homepage and your top three or four pages, so probably your services page, probably your about us page. Maybe a resources page, depending on, again, look at your Google Analytics. Then once you’ve done that, then I would definitely go through WordPress and go through any content that you have, podcasts, recordings, videos, blog posts, whatever it happens to be. Go through all of those and then divide and conquer and say, yeah, we’re gonna have to update these. It may take me all year, but I’m gonna do one a week and I’m gonna update one a week. And it suddenly, you’re taking small bites of the elephant and you can get it done by year’s end. Chip Griffin: I love your advice to look at the homepage and other key pages before worrying about, you know, old blog posts and that kind of thing, because many, many agencies neglect their websites. Until they decide all of a sudden, this is how I’m gonna get new business. And so then they over invest in time and money Yes. In their websites. Yes. So it, it, it does seem to be a story of extremes most of the time, but, but looking at that homepage of your website and making sure that it accurately reflects the business that you are: who you serve, what you do, and that it is very crystal clear about those things on your homepage. Very first step. Do not pass go. Do not do anything else. Just get that done first. Then I would say, look at the about page and make sure that it accurately reflects who you and your team are. Make sure that the right people are there. Make sure that your bio is accurate and up to date. Make sure that your photo is up to date and have a photo, by the way, because people like to deal with other people. Yep. And as someone who does professional headshots for people on the side, I gotta tell you, you gotta have something that’s within the last five years at least. I mean, if I put up a photo on the website of me with hair, that’s just, that’s not, that doesn’t make any sense. And yet I see plenty of people, Gini Dietrich: no, Chip Griffin: who have photos on their websites. And then I meet them and I’m like, this is not even in the ballpark. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, you’re right. The other thing I will say to that, and this is incredibly important, is that AI notices inconsistencies. So if you are inconsistent across different, the websites, social media, all the places that you are online, you are not going to show up in AI answers no matter how good your content is. So when you’re doing that audit, I would also audit your bio. Your bio that’s on the website compared to what it’s on LinkedIn compared to what it is on all the other social media platforms. If you have YouTube or a podcast platform, compare it to there. If you have a newsletter, compare it to there. Like ensure that it is the exact same bio, not, not, little changes based on the platform. I mean, you’ll have to make it smaller for Twitter than you would for LinkedIn, right? But it has to be consistent because if it’s not, AI gets confused and doesn’t know what to do, and so it just doesn’t present you as an option. So as you’re doing that audit, I would ensure that the bio, your own bio and then the bios of your key leadership or key team members are consistent across every platform on the internet, because that’s incredibly important with AI today. Chip Griffin: Yes. At the same time, what I would say to you is AI and SEO are very important. More important are the humans who actually visit your website. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And so there’s lots of advice out there, including what we’re talking about here that will help you from an AI and SEO standpoint. However, it should never, ever, ever be at the expense of the actual user’s experience. Gini Dietrich: No, never. Right. Chip Griffin: And increasingly, I’m seeing websites that are being tailored for how they think that AI will be reading and indexing their sites. And so, for example, they shift almost entirely to a Q&A format because AI, generally speaking, loves the Q&A format in order to stock the answers that it gives to people. However, that’s not always the best user experience. Sometimes you need to present things in more of a compelling story like way. And trust me, the AI will figure it out. It may not be as great at it today. It may prefer the Q, but it’s going to improve over time. And it’s the same thing as for years, people would chase the latest algorithm change at Google. And that’s fantastic until they change it in three months or six months. Right. And so what are you gonna do? Just keep updating your website? Well, if you’re an SEO agency, you love that, right? Because. You know, you can just tell the clients, well, you know the latest version, now you gotta do this. So you remember all that work we did in January? It’s June now. I’ll do it again. We’re gonna redo all of that for you, right? I mean, it’s a great full employment act for SEO experts. However, it is not generally a good user experience, nor frankly, a particularly good use of resources. So first and foremost, focus on the end user’s experience. And only after that, think about, okay. Are there tweaks or additions I could make in order to help the search engines or the AI spiders or that kind of thing? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think the point you make about how Google updated updates it algorithm like real often and that you are trying to keep up is, is ludicrous, but it’s something that we’ve always been aware of and I think the strategy has not changed. If you always write, produce, not just write, but create content that’s compelling to a human. The algorithms and the AI are going to love it so that doesn’t matter. Are there things you can do to help it and AI find you? Sure you can do Q&A’s, you can do the, but that we do that stuff and this is gonna get techy, but we do that stuff on no follow sites, so it doesn’t show up in Google. It doesn’t show up in our navigation. It’s only there for the AI bots, right? So there are things that you could do for sure. But if you always put the human beings first, it’s going to work no matter what happens with AI, and no matter what happens with the algorithms. Google came out, gosh, several years ago now, and said, if you’re focused on expertise, experience, authority, and trust, those are the, those are how we’re using, that’s how we’re floating stuff to the top. So I think that’s really good advice because that is always going to A, make your content different, and B, make it valuable to humans. So if you’re always demonstrating your expertise that nobody else has and your experience that nobody else has, that will build authority and trust in both places. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, the irony is that all of the experts will help you to chase the algorithms and the technology, but the reality is that all of the search engines and all of the AI engines, they’re all chasing the user. All they’re trying to do is try to deliver what a real person wants. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so it’s ironic that, that we set them aside, the humans aside to chase the technology when the technology is chasing the people. So it’s kind of a weird circle and I’ve consistently maintained for 20 plus years. If you focus on the user, you’ll get to the right place. You may not be there today. And, and it, it’s gonna ebb and flow over time as algorithms and technology changes. But chase the user because that’s how you sell your business. That’s how you find new clients and that’s how you keep people happy. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s, yes. Focus on the humans first. That’s always been the advice. That strategy has not changed. The tools change, the tactics change, the execution changes, but the strategy remains the same. Chip Griffin: So let’s say, you know, you’re, you’ve gone through this audit on your website. You’ve chucked out the things like the praise of Elon Musk that you don’t want on there anymore. You’ve gotten rid of the content that’s no longer relevant to the business that you are today. So now you’re left with some things that you could update, you know, maybe you could strengthen them. They’re not obviously wrong. They’re still pretty good. How do you decide where you want to invest your energy as far as which of these do you update? Which of those do you flesh out and make bigger deals? Because I think that’s where the real challenge comes in. You know, do you, are you better off updating old content or are you better off creating new content? Gini Dietrich: I think it depends, which is the tagline to this podcast, of course, but, it depends on a few things. One, if you, if there’s older content that you can refresh and update with minimal resources, like it’s just a five or 10 minute, gosh, this needs to change, this needs to change, and then I republish it and it’s showing up in Google results. I think it’s probably worth doing it. Obviously if it doesn’t support or reflect where you are right now, I would not worry about it. But if there are things where you have some SEO value or AI is using it to bring real humans to your website based on the questions they’re ans they’re asking and it’s accurate, then I would take a few minutes to update it. And like I said, maybe you, you create a list of things that you need to do and you just check one off a week. Right? And then I would focus my efforts on new stuff. So where are we now? What are we thinking? How are we? How have we evolved? What kinds of things are we offering to the industry? That kind of stuff. So I would first focus on the stuff that you can repurpose because it’s easier and it’s a smaller lift, and you still have the value of SEO from that perspective, and then focus on the new. But like I said, if your website in general, your homepage, your about us page are not updated, I would start there. Chip Griffin: And I think it’s important that you, as you’re looking at the old content, that you’re thinking about refreshing that, that you don’t look at it through the lens of I could make this perfect if I spent some more time on it. It really, you have to see that there’s some, that the outcome for the user, again, going back to the person on the other end, is meaningfully different because of the additional work that you’ve put in. I mean, if it’s just simply that it’s phrased better, it’s organized, neater. It’s, you know, a little bit clearer that that’s probably not enough for me. Right. But if you’re able to, you know, things have changed between then and now as far as either what’s going on in the world, what’s out there, what your knowledge is, and you can, you can make it 50% better. Okay. Now you’re talking about something that, that may be worth the investment of time and energy, but if it’s, you know, if you’re just, you know, kind of polishing. That generally isn’t gonna pay off. Gini Dietrich: Totally agree with it. Yep. Totally agree. Yeah. If it’s new, like if it’s your thinking has evolved and it supports that and you just need to polish that piece or you know, like… We are constantly evolving the PESO model. And so I’m always looking at that content to say, oh gosh, that doesn’t represent where it is anymore. Right? Do I wanna put a date on this or a year in the content so that anybody who visits it understands that this is three years old. Do I wanna delete it? Like, so I, you know, I’m constantly. Our marketing team and I are constantly looking at those kinds of things, so I totally agree. If it’s just a polish, I wouldn’t spend the time. But if it’s evolved thinking, if it’s new services, if it’s new products, if it’s new IP, if it’s, you know, those kinds of things, then I would definitely include it. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. Well, hopefully we’ve given people some good ideas so that they can take a fresh look at their website as we start the year. And figure out, you know, what they might wanna tweak, improve, get rid of, hide from, any of those things. And it, it doesn’t have to be a giant project as you suggested. No. It can be the kind of thing where you chip away at one piece of content a week or something like that and you’ll see a meaningful difference over the course of time. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yep. Get it done. Get that homepage updated. Chip Griffin: So with that, we will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it does depend.

When no one wants your Meat Slingshot, what do you do? Make a better flying disc and name it after a pie plate, naturally. Dave Young: Welcome to the Empire Builders Podcast, teaching business owners the not so secret techniques that took famous businesses from mom and pop to major brands. Stephen Semple is a marketing consultant, story collector and storyteller. I’m Stephen’s sidekick and business partner, Dave Young. Before we get into today’s episode, a word from our sponsor, which is… Well, it’s us, but we’re highlighting ads we’ve written and produced for our clients. So here’s one of those. [ECO Office Ad] Dave Young: Welcome back to the Empire Builders Podcast. Dave Young here with Stephen Semple and today’s topic, Wham-O. It’s from Wham-O. In all the toy stores, I’m trying to think. Slinky wasn’t Wham-O, was it? Stephen Semple: No, Slinky was not Wham-O. Dave Young: Yeah. I’m trying to think of what Wham-O was. Stephen Semple: Frisbee’s. Dave Young: Frisbee’s. Stephen Semple: Hula Hoops. Dave Young: Okay. Stephen Semple: All sorts of crap, right? Dave Young: I didn’t realize the Frisbee was a Wham-O product. I mean, I remember the name. I remember the ads and it’s a cool name. Stephen Semple: Yeah. Well, it’s so funny. Wham-O was Frisbee, Hula Hoops, Slip ‘N’ Slide, Super Ball, all of those- Dave Young: Probably lawn darts. Stephen Semple: All of those sorts of things were Wham-O. But what I find funny is before getting on, we were talking about this whole thing of sounds and things like that and communication. And then all of a sudden it’s like, “Oh, we’re going to talk about a company whose name actually has that real kinetic feel of Wham-O.” Dave Young: Mm-hmm. I love a name that is also a sound. And if we have time, I’ll tell you about a client I’m working with that we changed the name of the company to make it a sound. Stephen Semple: Oh, that’s cool. Dave Young: Yeah. Stephen Semple: That’s awesome. Oh, the other ones that they did, Hacky Sack and Silly Strings was a couple of the other ones. Dave Young: Were they responsible for lawn darts? That’s my question. Stephen Semple: I’m not sure if they’re responsible for lawn darts. So since it didn’t come up- Dave Young: Maybe not. Yeah. Stephen Semple: … I guess probably not. The company started in 1949 out of, basically a lot of these things out, of the garage in South Pasadena. And it was Richard Knerr and Arthur Melin, who are basically two university graduates, started this company. And their first product was a slingshot, was a wooden slingshot made from ash wood. And the name Wham-O was actually inspired by the sound of the slingshot hitting a target. Dave Young: You release it… Yeah. Stephen Semple: Yeah. Yeah. Dave Young: Very satisfying. Stephen Semple: But here’s the funny thing is, it wasn’t originally… The idea behind making it was not actually a toy. They loved training falcons, and it was to train falcons for hunting. Dave Young: A slingshot? Okay. Stephen Semple: They would shoot the meat into the air. They got frustrated that the regular slingshot wouldn’t fire it the way they wanted to do it, so they made their own. Dave Young: So they made a meat slingshot. Stephen Semple: Made a meat slingshot. Dave Young: It turns out there wasn’t a huge market for meat slingshots. So you pivot and put it in the hands of children eventually. Stephen Semple: It’s the 1950s, dude. Dave Young: Uh-huh, that’s right. “You’re going to put an eye out.” Well, somebody already did. Stephen Semple: Be careful with that hamburger you’re firing out. Dave Young: But that was their fault, not ours. Yeah. Those were the days, right? Stephen Semple: Right. Dave Young: When the manufacturer could say, “Well, that’s your fault. You shouldn’t have been an idiot.” Stephen Semple: “What’d you expect a rock to do?” But again, so many businesses, it started with them just solving their own problem. And their own problem was they wanted this thing. But what they found out, they created one that was so good that all of a sudden was like, “Wow,” people became interested in this. Dave Young: It the wrist rocket? Stephen Semple: You know what? I was able to find- Dave Young: I don’t know if that’s the same kind of- Stephen Semple: I wasn’t able to find pictures of the original thing around, because it didn’t do particularly well, but it kind of put them onto a path. Because very quickly they added blow guns and boomerangs. Dave Young: Nice. Stephen Semple: Right? But the whole idea was these types of things. And they get to the stage with these various products. So they’ve got the slingshot, they got the blow gun, they got the boomerang, they got these little niches going on and they’re selling basically $100,000 a year of this stuff. But they’re thinking to themselves, “If we’re going to really make this a business, we need a bigger idea.” And I’m going to say, if you’re going to really make this a business, you need an idea which is not going to put somebody’s eye out. Dave Young: Probably. This is, again, like you said, the 1950s. Stephen Semple: 1950s. Really, no seat belts, like, “Come on now.” Dave Young: The BB gun’s already invented. Stephen Semple: You know, it’s funny, when you think back to how we were with safety and things like that, one of my really fond memories… Now this wouldn’t have been the ’50s, this would be the ’70s, but one of my really fond memories of being a kid was we’d be hauling stuff somewhere and we had this old green wood trailer with oversized tires on it that bounced like crazy when you’re driving down the road. And one of the funnest thing is we would go somewhere and coming home, all the kids would pile into the trailer in the back as we’re driving down the road. Dave Young: You’d be the ballast to hold down the sheets of plywood. Yeah. Well, who needs tie downs when you’ve got 200 pounds of children? Stephen Semple: And the weird thing is, it’s not like anybody thought that was weird. Dave Young: No. Stephen Semple: That was what you do. Dave Young: Yeah. And if you weren’t on the trailer, you were sitting on the edge of a pickup with your back to the road. Stephen Semple: Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, back to Wham-O. They’re needing a bigger idea. And while they’re on the beach, they come across this flying disc called Whirlaway. Dave Young: Okay. Stephen Semple: Right? And they decide… They also found another one called Pluto Platter. So it didn’t work. It wasn’t really selling. And so Wham-O, they buy the rights to this. They go, “Look, we’ll buy the rights to this.” They make a few couple of design changes. And Morrison saw this people also tossing these metal pythons, right? Dave Young: Oh, okay. Stephen Semple: And so that was actually where he came up with a little bit of the design change. He kind of looked at that and went, “Oh, this is much better than this Pluto Platter thing.” Dave Young: You drop the edge down and balances itself a little bit better. Stephen Semple: Yeah, yeah. And one of the pie plates they came across, guess what the name of the pie plate was? Dave Young: Frisbee maybe? Stephen Semple: Bingo. Dave Young: Yeah? Okay. Stephen Semple: Frisbee. Dave Young: Okay. So they buy that too or just- Stephen Semple: They just trademarked that because it wasn’t trademarked. So they went and trademarked the Frisbee name. And in the first two years, they sell a million Frisbees. Dave Young: Wow. Stephen Semple: Right? And what they did to promote it, so here’s the really cool idea, they go to university campuses and they also gave it to people and people, guess what, immediately found on university cool ways to do tricks and stuff with the Frisbee. So that then got it going. And look, this was pre social media days. Imagine what you’d be able to do today in terms of demonstrating all this crazy stuff on social media. Dave Young: Well, you’d have to get people off their phone. Stephen Semple: Yeah. But what they have now is they have a way of creating ideas. And what they realized was they had to look for things and just make them better. So they created this open door policy. They would listen to anybody, “Come pitch an idea, we’ll listen.” So the next one was a neighbor had come back from Australia with this bamboo exercise hoop, and you had to use it doing a movement like a hula dancer. Dave Young: Yeah. Okay. Stephen Semple: And so they do a handshake deal. And if it’s a hit, we’re going to give you royalties. And instead they make it out of this lightweight, colorful plastic, and they put little beans inside so that it makes a sound. Dave Young: Absolutely. Stephen Semple: It also has a little bit different feel to it. They took this idea to parks and they demonstrated it. And what am I talking about, Dave? What’s the name of the toy? What’s the name of the toy? Dave Young: Oh, it’s the Hulu Hoop. Yeah. Stephen Semple: Bingo. Yeah, it’s the Hulu Hoop. And in 1958, they launched the Hula Hoop, and it’s the biggest toy fad in history. And I think it still is. Dave Young: Oh yeah, I think. Stephen Semple: I think it still is. Dave Young: Yeah. Stephen Semple: And they were farming out the product they couldn’t keep up with production. Now, here’s where a little problem happens for them. Remember that handshake deal? If this is a deal, we’re going to pay your royalties? Dave Young: Yeah, yeah. Stephen Semple: They didn’t pay any royalties and they got sued. Dave Young: Shoot. They should have paid the royalties. Stephen Semple: On top of that, knockoffs happened, right? Dave Young: Yeah. Stephen Semple: Because it was pretty easy to copy and people were making it cheaper. And then by the end of 1958, they actually reported a loss because of so much of this competition going on. Dave Young: Really? Okay. Stephen Semple: Yeah. So they stopped production. They’ve got growing debt. They’ve got a warehouse full of unsold product. So they need to find another hit. Because what they’ve noticed is in their business model is the toy gets hot and then it drops off. So what they suddenly realize is they need to constantly be looking for these new ideas. So Robert Carrier is a guy from the upholstery industry and he came home one day to see his son sliding on the concrete driveway because it was wet. Again, remember, ’50s, right? Dave Young: Sure. Anything to entertain yourself as a kid. Stephen Semple: He takes some Naugahyde, incorporates a hose and holes, and now you’ve got… Dave Young: The Slip ‘N’ Slide. Stephen Semple: Right. Dave Young: Yeah. Stephen Semple: Right. So basically the guys at Wham-O come across this idea and they replace it with vinyl plastic and you’ve got Slip ‘N’ Slide. Dave Young: Yeah, yeah. Stephen Semple: And when they launched Slip ‘N’ Slide, it sold like 3000 units in the first few months. Dave Young: Mm-hmm. Stephen Semple: Right? Another inventor comes and sees them, Norman Stringley, who’s a petrochemical engineer who specializes in rubber, and he makes this really dense, high bouncing ball that could also spin in reverse. Dave Young: Okay. Yeah, the Super Ball. Yeah. Stephen Semple: Bingo, the Super Bowl. Dave Young: Mm-hmm. Stephen Semple: Smash hit, six million sold in 1965 alone. Dave Young: Well, and I think it was just a couple of years before that with the Absent-minded Professor and Flubber. Do you remember Flubber? Stephen Semple: Yeah, right. Dave Young: So that was like Super Ball was having a ball made out of Flubber. Stephen Semple: Yeah. And I don’t know whether this is true or not, but seemingly the whole Super Ball thing was also part of the inspiration for creating the name of the Super Bowl. Dave Young: Really? Stephen Semple: Yeah. And again, this is one of those ones I could not find confirmation of it. It may just be one of those things that’s a great story that now is part of the world out there. Dave Young: Yeah, the zeitgeist. The zeitgeist. Stephen Semple: The zeitgeist, yeah, that’s it. And then in 1959, the Wham-O Bird Ornithopter, which was this aluminum spars and all this other… and brightly painted look like a hawker or an owl. And it was rubber bands. Remember those things, they were rubber band powered? They were about like three bucks and they made 600,000 of those. And then- Dave Young: It was brightly painted so you could see it up in the tree when it got stuck. Stephen Semple: Yeah. Dave Young: And now you’re like, “Oh shoot.” Stephen Semple: And then they created the Wheelie Bar, which was something that was great for attaching to a swing bicycle. And the air blaster and the bubble thing. One of the things that they just did was they realized they needed to just continually be making new ideas because the cycle for their types of toys, they would go really popular and drop off, really popular, drop off, really popular. In 1969, they did Silly String. Remember Silly String? Dave Young: Sure. Yeah. Stephen Semple: Right? The Hacky Sack in ’83. So just on and on and on and on, they would do these things. And in 1982, I was never able to find the price that Wham-O was sold for, but Wham-O was sold to Kransco Group Companies in ’82. And then in ’94, Mattel bought them. Dave Young: Wow. Stephen Semple: Then in ’97, Wham-O became independent again. Dave Young: Oh, really? Stephen Semple: And then in 2006, they were sold to Cornerstone Overseas Investment Limited for $80 million. Dave Young: Stay tuned. We’re going to wrap up this story and tell you how to apply this lesson to your business right after this. [Using Stories To Sell Ad] Dave Young: Let’s pick up our story where we left off, and trust me you haven’t missed a thing. Stephen Semple: Then in ’97, Wham-O became independent again. Dave Young: Oh, really? Stephen Semple: And then in 2006, they were sold to Cornerstone Overseas Investment Limited for $80 million. So the one thing I can find to put a value to Wham-O was they were bought, they went independent, and then they were sold again for $80 million. So I always like to try to go, “What was this company worth?” Dave Young: Those guys probably left when it got sold the first time, would be my guess. Stephen Semple: Yes. Dave Young: Yeah. Stephen Semple: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Dave Young: But here’s my observation of this. These guys weren’t making games. Stephen Semple: Oh, interesting. Dave Young: Hacky Sacks sort of became a game, right? Stephen Semple: Mm-hmm. Dave Young: Because you could play it with several people. You’d have people in a circle all smacking the Hacky Sack. In fact, I have one. I thought it was laying back here. It’s sitting on my desk or around here somewhere in this stuff. Stephen Semple: Cool. Dave Young: But it’s one of the little original leather ones. Stephen Semple: Nice, yeah. Dave Young: But my observation is this is a stretch. Okay? Stephen Semple: Okay. Dave Young: This is just me following a trend. Stephen Semple: Do I need to sit down? Do I need to sit down? Dave Young: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think, in fact, knowing you as well as I do, I think you’ll jump right on board with this. Stephen Semple: Okay. Dave Young: These guys were making fidget toys. These guys were making things that you could do yourself just by yourself, right? Stephen Semple: With the one exception being- Dave Young: And it’s not necessarily Hula. Stephen Semple: Frisbee would be the one exception, but Hula you could do yourself. All these other things you could do yourself. Dave Young: And people figured out how to make Frisbee golf courses and then you could play that by yourself. Stephen Semple: Oh, that’s true. Oh, that’s true. That’s true. Dave Young: You’re just throwing towards a goal. Stephen Semple: Yeah. Dave Young: But they didn’t make Frisbee as a game. They made it as an activity. Stephen Semple: Yes. Dave Young: So you could say they’re activities, but they were also things that you could just go do this activity and just be outside playing with something and be out on the driveway bouncing your Super Ball or- Stephen Semple: I remember having a Super Ball. They were fun. Dave Young: … holding your Hula Hoop, or shooting at things with the original slingshot. Stephen Semple: With the meat? Dave Young: The meat slinger. They had to quickly have pivoted from that, because I don’t think falconry ever got huge, right? They were looking at things that were just kind of cool. And I say fidget toys because even as we record these things, I have four or five things on my desk that I always have in my hand and I’m always just doing something, right? Stephen Semple: Yeah. Dave Young: It keeps my brain focused on this conversation instead of wandering all over the place. Stephen Semple: We just didn’t have the terminology fidget toy, right? Dave Young: Well, here’s the other thing. If you want to take it a step further, ADHD wasn’t known about then. Stephen Semple: Correct. It was around, but we’d had- Dave Young: Sure. Lots of kids with ADHD that needed… Just take your Super Ball outside. You could kill a lot of time goofing off with a Wham-O toy. Stephen Semple: Well, and a great example of that is I was only diagnosed a few years ago as having ADHD. Dave Young: Yeah, same. Mm-hmm. Stephen Semple: So gone through my entire life with it, not knowing… Mind you, if I look close enough, the science were there. Dave Young: Well, sure. Yeah. When I told people, I think mine was almost 10 years ago, but anytime I’d tell somebody like, “Wait, you didn’t know? You didn’t know.” Stephen Semple: No, I was distracted. I didn’t notice. Dave Young: The rest of us knew. “How long have you been having these memory problems?” “For as long as I can remember.” Stephen Semple: So not long. Dave Young: I don’t know. Stephen Semple: But the one thing I want to tie back to on Wham-O, and it’s a great observation that that’s what they were basically creating, is the thing that they noticed very quickly was this was their natural business. Their natural business was you create something, it’s a hit, and it falls off. And they just bought into it. They said, “That’s the nature of this business.” So what you need to do is continually be looking for these new ideas. Dave Young: A new thing. Stephen Semple: So this is reason why we didn’t talk very much about… They literally had this open door policy. If you were an inventor of a toy, you could come see them. And look, they looked at a lot of crap, but at the same time that they knew that they had to constantly be out there, it’s not about, “Oh my God, we’re making all this money from the Hula.” What they learned from the Hula, because it almost killed their business, is they need to be constantly looking for that next idea, that next idea. And it’s not about, “Oh, it’s dropped off. We’ve got to revive this with marketing.” Toy, especially in those days, had this natural cycle that it went through. They bought into, “This is the way it is, so we got to constantly looking for new ideas, fill in that pipeline and creating it. And then also recognizing when this thing drops off, we’ve got to manage that drop off.” I really like the fact that they just really saw their business for what it was and said, “Okay, given that’s what it is, this is how we have to manage things.” Dave Young: Yeah. And honestly, this fits it so well because the inventors are probably… They’re just figuring out something that they enjoyed. Right? Stephen Semple: Bingo. Dave Young: I made this little thing. I made this little thing out of paperclips and look what it does and it’s kind of fun and I think you could take it to the next level. And I think there’s lots of things like that. And so they were filling that need of these inventors who were probably just solving their own little attention problem. Stephen Semple: Well, great. Oh, I discovered my kid was doing this and I did this and they’re now having fun with it and all the neighborhood kids are coming over and doing it. Dave Young: Frisbee was a way to play a game of catch without needing a glove and a ball or pretending you’re playing baseball, right? And so if you weren’t a baseball player, you probably didn’t run around with a glove and baseball anyway. So it was a way to… And most of these toys, you didn’t need anybody else. Stephen Semple: You didn’t need anybody else. Dave Young: Frisbee you did, but it was just a game of catch. Stephen Semple: Right. And also what they recognized was people would very quickly, like with Hula and Frisbee and all these things, people would very quickly figure out their own ways to make it fun and do strange things. Dave Young: Gamify. Stephen Semple: Which then also made it more… People gamified it on their own and will gamify it on their own. Give kids a bunch of stuff, they’ll gamify it. Dave Young: I’m sure it wasn’t too long before there was somebody, the first person in the Guinness Book of World Records for Hula Hoop. Stephen Semple: Oh, for sure. Dave Young: Right? Stephen Semple: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Dave Young: Because you just see how long you can do it, you see how many spins you can do it. Stephen Semple: Yeah. And again, the interesting part to me was it didn’t start as, “Hey, we’re making this toy.” It was, “we made this thing,” and then they started to discover that it was fun. It was just fun on their own firing without the falcons and now it’s a toy. Dave Young: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Stephen Semple: Yeah. Dave Young: The story of Wham-O. Stephen Semple: Wham-O. Dave Young: Wham-O, it’s a sound. Right? I know this is an audio podcast, but just do a Google search for the Wham-O logo, right? It’s a sound. You can hear it when you read it and you can see that it’s in motion, right? Stephen Semple: Yes. Dave Young: All of these things had that in common too. Everything was about motion and something moving, some kind of action. Stephen Semple: Well, the other thing that’s really smart about the Wham-O logo is it’s that it’s colorful. But the other thing is the way they’ve done the Wham-O, if you really look at it carefully, it’s the letters at the beginning are big and it gets smaller, which is kind of how you would say Wham-O, right? Dave Young: Yeah. Stephen Semple: If you actually listen to it, the sound drops off. And even the way they drew it, they were drawing upon the common way in which comics convey this. And if you think about it at the time, you would have had also things like Batman with the, “Pow!” Dave Young: Absolutely. Yeah. Stephen Semple: So they were also tying into a popular zeitgeist of communication, which is really brilliant. Dave Young: That probably was also attractive to the same kids. Stephen Semple: Correct. Dave Young: Right? Stephen Semple: Oh yeah, correct. Dave Young: And they would recognize it. They would see the language of the comic book and the logo of Wham-O. Stephen Semple: Bingo. Immediately, mm-hmm. Dave Young: The way it recedes, it’s not that it gets smaller in your brain, it’s that it’s getting farther away. Stephen Semple: No, but that’s what I meant by just trying to explain since we’re on a podcast that the lettering gets smaller. Dave Young: But it gives you that feeling of motion. Stephen Semple: But in our brain… Bingo. Dave Young: Mm-hmm. Stephen Semple: Yes. Yes. Dave Young: So they managed to put sound, color and motion into a static logo. Stephen Semple: Correct. Correct. Dave Young: And that’s a super cool thing to do. Stephen Semple: Yeah. Yeah. Really, really amazing thing to do. Yeah. Dave Young: Yeah. Stephen Semple: Yeah, it was very cool. Very cool. Dave Young: This is a long episode. Do you want to hear about this client I mentioned at the beginning? Stephen Semple: Go ahead, Dave. Dave Young: Short story. And this is a air conditioning client in Tucson, and his company was named Tailored Mechanical. Stephen Semple: Okay. Dave Young: I think he listens to the podcast, so he’s probably going to hear this and go, “Oh my God.” But we’re in the middle of rebranding. And we asked him when he became a client, like, “Are you okay with us recommending a change in the name of the company?” Because Tailored Mechanical doesn’t exactly tell you that they’re an air conditioning repair company, right? I’m not sure what they do if you tell me mechanical, right? They’re not auto mechanics and they don’t fix elevators and things like that. I don’t know. But anyway, his name’s Chris Plunkett and his wife’s name is Scarlett. And so we gave him a couple of new name suggestions, knowing the one that we really wanted him to pick. We gave him one that had air conditioning in the title, just the typical thing. And then we’re like, “I mean, your wife’s name is pretty cool. You could call this company Scarlett. There’s no other air conditioner company named Scarlett. That would be a cool name.But, dude, everybody already just calls you Plunkett because it’s a sound and it’s fun to say. And so that’s the name of your company, Plunkett.” Stephen Semple: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Dave Young: And the logo is like Wham-O, it’s got motion in it. Stephen Semple: Nice. Dave Young: It’s bigger at both ends because there’s a pa-pa. There’s two syllables and they’re both kind of consonants, Plunkett. And so that’s going to be fun and we’re going to have fun with it. Stephen Semple: That will be fun. Dave Young: It’s almost going to feel like a Wham-O kind of a brand, but the whole goal… Remember the whole goal with companies like this is, we just need to make him memorable, right? Stephen Semple: Yes, yes. Dave Young: And anyway, I love the Wham-O story. I love that this is the kind of smart decisions that people can make that closely make their brand memorable. Rememberable is even a better word. It’s not a word. Stephen Semple: Yes. Yes. That’s awesome. That’ll be a fun campaign. Dave Young: Mm-hmm. Stephen Semple: You should send me some of the ads and we should put them in on the podcast. Dave Young: Yeah. I mean, we haven’t even got to that stage yet. We’ve just got the trucks wrapped and people are looking… Stephen Semple: When you’ve got that, send it along. We’ll put them in the podcast. Dave Young: You don’t know what we’re doing to make the trucks also have motion even when they’re sitting still? Stephen Semple: What are you doing? Dave Young: They’ve got the big logo on them and they’re brightly colored. They’re different colors on both sides. And we’ve put NASCAR style numbers on the doors. Stephen Semple: Oh, nice. That’s fun. Dave Young: Big, big numbers. Stephen Semple: That’s fun. Dave Young: And people scratch their heads. It’s like, “Well, it’s just science. Trucks go faster if they have numbers on them. Have you never watched a race?” Stephen Semple: That’s just science. All right, David, that’s fun. That’s fun, man. Dave Young: It’s fun to have a client that lets you do fun things in the aim of creating entertainment, and that’s the currency of attention. Stephen Semple: Yeah, that’s awesome. Dave Young: Thank you, Stephen. Great. Stephen Semple: So much fun. Thanks, David. Dave Young: Thanks for listening to the podcast. Please share us, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and leave us a big, fat, juicy five star rating and review at Apple Podcasts. And if you’d like to schedule your own 90-minute empire building session, you can do it at empirebuildingprogram.com.

In Episode 5 of Allegedly Sports, M|M and Tom Schneider react to a packed weekend across college football, the NFL playoffs, the NBA, and beyond. The conversation blends real time reactions, sharp disagreement, and context driven analysis on what actually matters when the games get tight and expectations rise. The episode opens with a breakdown of the College Football National Championship, where Indiana's dominance sparks a debate about coaching, preparation, fourth down decision making, and why well coached teams consistently separate themselves in high leverage moments. M|M and Tom discuss Fernando Mendoza, quarterback leadership, iconic fourth down plays, and why Indiana's run may signal a longer power shift in college football rather than a one year peak. The focus then shifts to the NFL playoffs, starting with Patriots versus Texans and the evolving perception of Drake Maye. The two break down quarterback expectations, turnover context, and why winning in the NFL often comes down to execution, experience, and avoiding catastrophic mistakes rather than chasing perfection. The conversation continues through the AFC and NFC playoff matchups, including Bills versus Broncos, Bears versus Rams, and Seahawks versus 49ers. M|M and Tom debate fourth down philosophy, coaching tendencies, and why some quarterbacks rise in chaos while others stall when structure breaks down. On the NBA side, the discussion turns to Jimmy Butler's season ending injury and how it reshapes the Warriors' ceiling. The two explore on off switch teams, playoff intensity, and why assuming success can be turned on at will often leads to disappointment. The episode closes with a discussion on Major League Baseball spending, legacy franchises, and whether teams like the Dodgers are buying championships. Drawing comparisons to past Yankees dynasties, M|M and Tom debate whether financial dominance guarantees success or simply raises expectations. Allegedly Sports delivers unfiltered conversation, thoughtful disagreement, and analysis rooted in how sports are actually played and won.

In this episode of the Marathon Mentality Podcast, M|M sits down with DJ for a raw and honest conversation about discipline, personal growth, identity, and what it really takes to build momentum in life. The episode explores DJ's personal journey, from mindset shifts and accountability to learning how to show up consistently when motivation fades. Together, M|M and DJ break down the difference between wanting results and earning them, emphasizing why structure, routines, and self awareness matter more than hype or short term inspiration. The conversation moves into the realities of modern pressure, including social media comparison, unrealistic timelines, and the temptation to cut corners. DJ shares insights on staying grounded, trusting the process, and how embracing discomfort became a turning point in his growth. M|M adds perspective on why most people fail not because of a lack of talent, but because they quit when the process becomes boring or uncomfortable. They also discuss identity, including how people cling to old versions of themselves, why growth can feel isolating, and how redefining who you are is often required before external success shows up. The episode reinforces the Marathon Mentality philosophy that progress is built through daily execution, not dramatic breakthroughs. The episode closes with reflections on consistency, long term vision, and why staying patient while remaining relentless is the real competitive advantage. Topics Covered Discipline vs motivation Building momentum through daily habits Accountability and self awareness Navigating pressure and comparison Identity shifts and personal reinvention Trusting the process when results lag Embracing discomfort as a growth tool Long term thinking vs short term gratification Why consistency beats intensity Key Takeaways Motivation fades and discipline sustains progress Growth often requires letting go of old identities The process works even when it feels slow Most people quit right before momentum compounds

In this powerful and wide-ranging episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins sits down with Ken Behr, author of One Step Over the Line: Confessions of a Marijuana Mercenary. Behr tells his astonishing life story—from teenage marijuana dealer in South Florida, to high-level drug runner and smuggler, to DEA cooperating source working major international cases. Along the way, he offers rare, first-hand insight into how large-scale drug operations actually worked during the height of the War on Drugs—and why that war, in his view, has largely failed. From Smuggler to Source Behr describes growing up during the explosion of the drug trade in South Florida during the 1970s and 1980s, where smuggling marijuana and cocaine became almost commonplace. He explains how he moved from street-level dealing into large-scale logistics—off-loading planes, running covert runways in the Everglades, moving thousands of pounds of marijuana, and participating in international smuggling operations involving Canada, Jamaica, Colombia, and the Bahamas. After multiple arrests—including a serious RICO case that threatened him with decades in prison—Behr made the life-altering decision to cooperate with the DEA. What followed was a tense and dangerous double life as an undercover operative, helping law enforcement dismantle major trafficking networks while living under constant pressure and fear of exposure. Inside the Mechanics of the Drug Trade This episode goes deep into the nuts and bolts of organized drug trafficking, including: How clandestine runways were built and dismantled in minutes How aircraft were guided into unlit landing zones How smuggling crews were paid and organized Why most drug operations ultimately collapse from inside The role of asset seizures in federal drug enforcement Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [00:00:00] well, hey, all your wire taps. It’s good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. I have a special guest today. He has a book called, uh, title is One Step Over the Line and, and he went several steps over the line, I think in his life. Ken Bearer, welcome Ken. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Now, Ken, Ken is a, was a marijuana smuggler at one time and, and ended up working with the DEA, so he went from one side over to my side and, and I always like to talk to you guys that that helped us in law enforcement and I, there’s a lot of guys that don’t like that out there, but I like you guys you were a huge help to us in law enforcement and ended up doing the right thing after you made a lot of money. So tell us about the money. We were just starting to talk about the money. Tell us about the money, all those millions and millions of dollars that you drug smuggler makes. What happens? Well, I, you know, like I said, um, Jimmy Buffett’s song a pirate looks at 40, basically, he says, I made enough money to to buy Miami and pissed it away all so fast, never meant to last. And, and that’s what happens. I do know a few people that have [00:01:00] put away money. One of my friends that we did a lot of money together, a lot of drug dealing and a lot of moving some product, and he’s put the money away. Got in bed with some other guy that was, you know, legal, bought a bunch of warehouses, and now he lives a great life, living off the money he put away. Yeah. If the rents and stuff, he, he got into real estate. Other guys have got into real estate and they got out and they ended up doing okay. ’cause now they’re drawing all those rents. That’s a good way to money. Exactly what he did. Uh, my favorite, I was telling you a favorite story of mine was the guy that was a small time dealer used to hang out at the beach. And, uh, we en he ended up saving $80,000, which was a lot of money back then. Yeah. And then put it all, went to school to be a culinary chef and then got a job at the Marriott as a culinary chef and a chef. So he, you know, he really took the money, made a little bit of money, didn’t make a lot Yeah. But made enough to go to school and do something with his life. That’s so, um, that’s a great one. That’s a good one [00:02:00] there. That’s real. Yeah. But he wasn’t a big time guy. Yeah. You know what, what happens is you might make a big lick. You know, I, I never made million dollar moves. I have lots of friends that did. I always said I didn’t want to be a smuggler. ’cause I was making a steady living, being a drug runner. If you brought in 40, 50,000 pounds of weed, you would come to me and then I would move it across the country and sell it in different, along with other guys like me. Having said that, so I say I’m a guy that never wanted to do a smuggling trip. I’ve done 12 of them. Yeah. Even though, you know, and you know, if you’ve been in the DEA side twelve’s a lot for somebody usually. Yeah. That’s a lot. They don’t make, there’s no longevity. Two or three trips. No. You know, I did it for 20 years. Yeah. And then finally I got busted one time in Massachusetts in 1988. We had 40,000 pounds stuck up in Canada. So a friend of mine comes to me, another friend had the 40,000 pounds up there. He couldn’t sell it. He goes, Hey, you wanna help me smuggle [00:03:00] this back into America? Which, you know, is going the wrong direction. The farther north it goes, the more money it’s worth. I would’ve taken it to Greenland for Christ’s sakes. Yeah. But, we smuggled it back in. What we did this time was obviously they, they brought a freighter or a big ship to bring the 40,000 pounds into Canada. Mm-hmm. He added, stuffed in a fish a fish packing plant in a freezer somewhere up there. And so we used the sea plane and we flew from a lake in Canada to a lake in Maine where the plane would pull up, I’d unload. Then stash it. And we really did like to get 1400 pounds. We had to go through like six or seven trips. ’cause the plane would only hold 200 and something pounds. Yeah. And a sea plane can’t land at night. It has to land during the day. Yeah. You can’t land a plane in the middle of a lake in the night, I guess yourself. Yeah. I see. Uh, and so we got, I got busted moving that load to another market and that cost, uh, [00:04:00] cost me about $80,000 in two years of fighting in court to get out of that. Yeah. Uh, but I did beat the case for illegal search and seizure. So one for the good guys. It wasn’t for the good guys. Well the constitution, he pulled me over looking for fireworks and, ’cause it was 4th of July and, yeah. The name of that chapter in the book is why I never work on a holiday. So you don’t wanna spend your holiday in jail ’cause there’s no, you can’t on your birthday. So another, the second time I got busted was in 92. So just a couple years later after, basically I was in the system for two years with the loss, you know, fighting it and that, that was for Rico. I was looking at 25 years. But, uh, but like a normal smuggling trip. I’ll tell you one, we did, I brought, I actually did my first smuggling trip. I was on the run in Jamaica from a, a case that I got named in and I was like 19 living down in Jamaica to cool out. And then my buddies came down. So we ended up bringing out 600 pounds. So that was my first tr I was about 19 or [00:05:00] 20 years old when I did my first trip. I brought out 600 pounds outta Jamaica. A friend of mine had a little Navajo and we flew it out with that, but. I’ll give you an example of a smuggling trip. So a friend of mine came to me and he wanted to load 300 kilos of Coke in Columbia and bring it into America. And he wanted to know if I knew anybody that could load him 300 kilos. So I did. I introduced him to a friend of mine that Ronnie Vest. He’s the only person you’ll appreciate this. Remember how he kept wanting to extradite all the, the guys from Columbia when we got busted, indict him? Yes. And of course, Escobar’s living in his own jail with his own exit. Yeah. You know, and yeah. So the Columbian government says, well, we want somebody, why don’t you extradite somebody to America, to Columbia? So Ronnie Vest had gotten caught bringing a load of weed outta Columbia. You know, they sent ’em back to America. So that colo, the Americans go, I’ll tell you what you want. Somebody. And Ronnie Vests got the first good friend of mine, first American to be [00:06:00] extradited to Columbia to serve time. So he did a couple years in the Columbian prison. And so he’s the one that had the cocaine connection now. ’cause he spent time in Columbia. Yeah. And you know, so we brought in 300 kilos of Coke. He actually, I didn’t load it. He got another load from somebody else. But, so in the middle of the night, you set up on a road to nowhere in the Everglades, there’s so many Floridas flat, you’ve got all these desolate areas. We go out there with four or five guys. We take, I have some of ’em here somewhere. Callum glow sticks. You know the, the, the glow sticks you break, uh, yeah. And some flashing lights throw ’em out there. Yeah. And we set up a, yeah, the pilot came in and we all laid in the woods waiting for the plane to come in. And as soon as the pilot clicks. The mic four times. It’s, we all click our mics four times and then we run out. He said to his copilot, he says, look, I mean, we lit up this road from the sky. He goes, it looks like MIA [00:07:00] behind the international airport. But it happens like that within a couple, like a minute, we’ll light that whole thing up. Me and one other guy run down the runway. It’s a lot, it’s a long run, believe me. We put out the lights, we gotta put out the center lights and then the marker lights, because you gotta have the center of the runway where the plane’s gonna land and the edge is where it can’t, right? Yeah. He pulls up, bring up a couple cars, I’m driving one of them, load the kilos in. And then we have to refuel the plane because you don’t, you know, you want to have enough fuel to get back to an FBO to your landing airport or real airport. Yeah. Not the one we made in the Everglades. Yeah. And then the trick is the car’s gotta get out of there. Yeah, before the plane takes off. ’cause when that plane takes off, you know you got a twin engine plane landing is quiet, taking off at full throttle’s gonna wake up the whole neighborhood. So once we got out of there, then they went ahead and got the plane off. And then the remaining guys, they gotta clean up the mess. We want to use this again. So we [00:08:00] wanna clean up all the wires, the radios. Mm-hmm. Pick up the fuel tanks, pick up the runway lights, and their job is to clean that off and all that’s gonna take place before the police even get down the main road. Right? Mm-hmm. That’s gonna all take place in less than 10 minutes. Wow. I mean, the offload takes, the offload takes, you can offload about a thousand pounds, which I’ve done in three minutes. Wow. But, and then refueling the plane, getting everything else cleaned up. Takes longer. Yeah. Interesting. So how many guys would, would be on that operation and how do you pay that? How do you decide who gets paid what? How much? Okay. So get it up front or, I always curious about the details, how that stuff, I don’t think I got paid enough. And I’ll be honest, it was a hell of a chance. I got 20 grand looking at 15 years if you get caught. Yeah. But I did it for the excitement. 20 grand wasn’t that much. I had my own gig making more money than that Uhhuh, you know, but I was also racing cars. I was, there’s a [00:09:00] picture of one of my race cars. Oh cool. So that costs about six, 7,000 a weekend. Yeah. And remember I’m talking about 1980s dollars. Yeah. That’s 20,000 a weekend. A weekend, yes. Yeah. And that 20,000 for a night’s work in today’s world would be 60. Yeah. Three. And I’m talking about 1985 versus, that was 40 years ago. Yeah. Um. But it’s a lot of fun and, uh, and, but it, you kind of say to yourself, what was that one step over the line? That’s why I wrote the book. I remember as a kid thinking in my twenties, man, I’ve taken one step over the line. So the full name of the book is One Step Over the Line Con Confessions of a Marijuana Mercenary. That’s me actually working for the DEA. That picture was at the time when I was working for the DEA, so the second time I got busted in 1992 was actually for the smallest amount of weed that I ever got, ever really had. It was like 80, a hundred pounds. But unfortunately it was for Rico. I didn’t know at the [00:10:00] time, but when they arrested me, I thought, oh, they only caught me with a hundred pounds. But I got charged with Rico. So I was looking at 25 years. What, how, what? Did they have some other, it must have had some other offenses that they could tie to and maybe guns and stuff or something that get that gun. No, we never used guns ever. Just other, other smuggling operations. Yeah, yeah. Me, me and my high school friend, he had moved to Ohio in 77 or 78, so he had called me one time, he was working at the Ford plant and he goes, Hey, I think I could sell some weed up here. All right. I said, come on down, I’ll give you a couple pounds. So he drives down from Ohio on his weekend off, all the way from Ohio. I gave him two pounds. He drove home, calls me back. He goes, I sold it. So I go, all right. He goes, I’m gonna get some more. So at that time, I was working for one of the largest marijuana smugglers in US History. His name was Donny Steinberg. I was just a kid, you know, like my job, part of my [00:11:00] job was to, they would gimme a Learjet. About a million or two and I jump on a Learjet and fly to the Cayman Islands. I was like 19 years old. Same time, you know, kid. Yeah, just a kid. 19 or 20 and yeah. 18, I think. And so I ended up doing that a few times. That was a lot of fun. And that’s nice to be a kid in the Learjet and they give me a million or two and they gimme a thousand dollars for the day’s work. I thought I was rich, I was, but people gotta understand that’s in that 78 money, not that’s, yeah. That was more like $10,000 for day, I guess. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It was a lot of money for an 18, 19-year-old kid. Yeah. Donnie gives me a bail. So Terry comes back from Ohio, we shoved the bale into his car. Barely would fit ’cause he had no big trunk on this Firebird. He had, he had a Firebird trans Am with the thunder black with a thunder, thunder chicken on the hood. It was on the hood. Oh cool. That was, that was a catch meow back then. Yeah. Yeah. It got it with that [00:12:00] Ford plant money. And uh, by the way, that was after that 50 pounds got up. ’cause every bail’s about 50 pounds. That’s the last he quit forward the next day. I bet. And me and him had built a 12 year, we were moving. Probably 50 tons up there over the 12 year period. You know, probably, I don’t know, anywhere from 50 to a hundred thousand pounds we would have, he must have been setting up other dealers. So among his friends, he must have been running around. He had the distribution, I was setting up the distribution network and you had the supply. I see. Yeah. I was the Florida connection. It’s every time you get busted, the cops always wanna grab that Florida connection. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You gotta go down there. I there, lemme tell you, you know, I got into this. We were living in, I was born on a farm in New Jersey, like in know Norman Rockwell, 1950s, cow pies and hay bales. And then we moved to New Orleans in 1969 and then where my dad had business and right after, not sure after that, he died when I was 13. As I say in the book, I [00:13:00] probably wouldn’t have been writing the book if my father was alive. Yeah. ’cause I probably wouldn’t have went down that road, you know? But so my mother decides in 1973 to move us to, uh, south Florida, to get away from the drugs in the CD underside of New Orleans. Yeah. I guess she didn’t read the papers. No. So I moved from New Orleans to the star, the war on where the war on drugs would start. I always say if she’d have moved me to Palo Alto, I’d be Bill Gates, but No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was so, uh, and everybody I knew was running drugs, smuggling drugs, trying to be a drug deal. I mean, I was, I had my own operation. I was upper middle level, but there were guys like me everywhere. Mm-hmm. There were guys like me everywhere, moving a thou, I mean, moving a thousand, 2000 pounds at the time was a big thing, you know? That’s, yeah. So, so about what year was that? I started in 19. 70. Okay. Three. I was [00:14:00] 16. Started selling drugs outta my mom’s house, me and my brother. We had a very good business going. And by the time I was got busted, it was 19 92. So, so you watched, especially in South Florida, you watched like where that plane could go down and go back up that at eventually the feds will come up with radar and they have blimps and they have big Bertha stuff down there to then catch those kinds of things. Yeah. Right, right. Big Bertha was the blimp. Uhhuh, uh, they put up, yeah. In the beginning you could just fly right in. We did one trip one time. This is this, my, my buddy picked up, I don’t know, 40 or 50 kilos in The Bahamas. So you fly into Fort Lauderdale and you call in like you’re gonna do a normal landing. Mm-hmm. And the BLI there. This is all 1980s, five. You know, they already know. They’re doing this, but you just call in, like you’re coming to land in Fort Lauderdale, and what you do is right before you land, you hit the tower up and you tell ’em you wanna do a [00:15:00] go around, meaning you’re not comfortable with the landing. Mm-hmm. Well, they’ll always leave you a go around because they don’t want you to crash. Yeah. And right west of the airport was a golf course, and right next to the golf course, oh, about a mile down the road was my townhouse. So we’re in the townhouse. My buddies all put on, two of the guys, put on black, get big knives, gear, and I drive to one road on the golf course and my other friend grows Dr. We drop the guys off in the golf course as the plane’s gonna do the touchdown at the airport. He says, I gotta go around. As he’s pulling up now, he’s 200 feet below the radar, just opens up the side of the plane. Mm-hmm. The kickers, we call ’em, they’re called kickers. He kicks the baskets, the ba and the guys on, on the golf court. They’re hugging trees. Yeah. You don’t wanna be under that thing. Right. You got a 200, you got maybe a 40 pound package coming in at 120 miles an hour from 200 feet up. It’ll break the bra. It’ll yeah. The [00:16:00] branches will kill you. Yeah. So they pull up, they get out, I pull back up in the pickup truck, he runs out, jumps in the back of the truck, yells, hit it. We drive the mile through the back roads to my townhouse. Get the coke in the house. My buddy rips it open with a knife. It’s and pulls out some blow. And he looks at me, he goes, Hey, let’s get outta here. And I go, where are we going? Cops come and he goes, ah, I got two tickets. No, four tickets to the Eddie Murphy concert. So we left the blow in this trunk of his car. Oh. Oh, oh man. I know. We went to Eddie Murphy about a million dollars worth of product in the trunk. Oh. And, uh, saw a great show and came back and off they went. That’s what I’m trying to point out is that’s how fast it goes down, man. It’s to do. Yeah. Right in, in 30 minutes. We got it out. Now the thing about drug deals is we always call ’em dds delayed dope deals because the smuggling [00:17:00] trip could take six months to plan. Yeah. You know, they never go, there’s no organized crime in organized crime. Yeah. No organization did it. Yeah. And then, then of course, in 1992 when I got busted and was looking at Rico, a friend of mine came up to me. He was a yacht broker. He had gotten in trouble selling a boat, and he said, Hey, I’d you like to work for the DEA. I’d done three months in jail. I knew I was looking at time, I knew I had nothing. My lawyers told me, Kenny, you either figure something out or you’re going to jail for a mm-hmm. And I just had a newborn baby. I just got married three weeks earlier and we had a newborn baby. I said, what are you crazy? I mean, I’m waiting for my wife to hear me. You know, he’s calling me on the phone. He goes, meet me for lunch. I go meet him for lunch. And he explains to me that he’s gonna, he’s got a guy in the, uh, central district in Jacksonville, and he’s a DEA agent, and I should go talk to him. And so the DEA made a deal with the Ohio police that anything that I [00:18:00] confiscated, anything that I did, any assets I got, they would get a share in as long as they released me. Yeah. To them. And, you know, it’s all about the, I hate to say this, I’m not saying that you don’t want to take drugs off the street, but if you’re the police department and you’re an agent, it’s about asset seizures. Yeah. Yeah. That’s how you fund the dr. The war on drugs. Yeah. The war begets war. You know, I mean, oh, I know, been Florida was, I understand here’s a deal. You’re like suing shit against the tide, right? Fighting that drug thing. Okay? It just keeps coming in. It keeps getting cheaper. It keeps getting more and more. You make a little lick now and then make a little lick now and then, but then you start seeing these fancy cars and all this money out there that you can get to. If you make the right score, you, you, you hit the right people, you can get a bunch of money, maybe two or three really cool cars for your unit. So then you’ll start focusing on, go after the money. I know it’s not right, but you’re already losing your shoveling shit against the tide anyhow, so just go after the goal. [00:19:00] One time I set up this hash deal for the DEA from Amsterdam. The guy brought the hash in, and I had my agent, you know, I, I didn’t set up the deal. The guy came to me and said, we have 200 kilos of hash. Can you help us sell it? He didn’t know that I was working for the DEA, he was from Europe. And I said, sure. The, the thing was, I, so in the boat ready to close the deal, now my guy is from Central. I’m in I’m in Fort Lauderdale, which is Southern District. So he goes, Hey, can you get that man to bring that sailboat up to Jacksonville? I go, buddy, he just sailed across the Atlantic. He ain’t going to Jacksonville. So the central district has to come down, or is a northern district? I can’t remember if it’s northern or central. Has to come down to the Southern district. So, you know, they gotta make phone calls. Everybody’s gotta be in Yep. Bump heads. So I’m on the boat and he calls me, he goes, Hey, we gotta act now. Yeah. And I’m looking at the mark, I go, why? He [00:20:00] goes, customs is on the dock. We don’t want them involved. So you got the two? Yeah. So I bring him up, I go, where’s the hash? He goes, it’s in the car. So we go up to the car and he opens the trunk, and I, I pull back one of the duffle bags I see. I can tell immediately it’s product. So I go like this, and all hell breaks loose, right? Yeah. I could see the two customs agents and they’re all dressed like hillbillies. They, you know. So I said to my, my handler, the next day I called them up to debrief. You know, I have to debrief after every year, everything. I goes, so what happened when customs I go, what’d they want to do? He goes, yep. They wanted to chop the boat in threes. So they’re gonna sell the boat and the 2D EA offices are gonna trade it. Yeah. Are gonna shop the money. Yeah. I remember when I registered with the DEA in, in, in the Southern district, I had to tell ’em who I was. They go, why are you working for him? Why aren’t you working for us? I’m like, buddy, I’m not in charge here. This is, you know? Yeah. I heard that many [00:21:00] times through different cases we did, where the, the local cop would say to me, why don’t you come work for us? Oh yeah. Try to steal your informant. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So how about that? So, can you get a piece of the action if they had a big case seizure? Yeah. Did they have some deal where you’d get a piece of that action there? Yep. That’s a pretty good deal. Yeah. So I would get, I, I’d get, like, if we brought down, he would always tell everybody that he needed money to buy electronics and then he would come to me and go, here’s 2000. And to the other cis, he had three guys. I saw a friend of mine, the guy that got me into the deal. Them a million dollar house or a couple million dollar house. And I saw the DEA hand him a suitcase with a million dollars cash in it. Wow. I mean, I’m sorry, with a hundred thousand cash. A hundred thousand. Okay. I was gonna say, I was thinking a million. Well, a hundred thousand. Yeah, a hundred thousand. I’ve heard that. I just didn’t have any experience with it myself. But I heard that. I saw, saw Open it up, saw money. I saw the money. It was one of those aluminum halla, Halliburton reef cases and Yeah, yeah. A [00:22:00] hundred thousand cash. But, uh, but you know, um, it’s funny, somebody once asked me out of, as a kid I wanted to be a cowboy, a race car driver, and a secret agent. Me too. Yes. Yeah. I didn’t want, I wanted to be a, I grew up on a farm, so I kind of rode a horse. I had that watched Rowdy, you got saved background as me, man. Yeah. You know, we watched, we watched, we grew up on westerns. We watched Gun Smoke, rowdy. Oh yeah. You know, uh, bananas, uh, you know, so, um. So anyway, uh, I got to raise cars with my drug money, and I guess I’m not sure if I was more of a secret agent working as a drug dealer or as the DEA, but it’s a lot of I, you know, I make jokes about it now, but it’s a lot of stress working undercover. Oh, yeah. Oh, I can’t even imagine that. I never worked undercover. I, that was not my thing. I like surveillance and putting pieces together and running sources, but man, that actual working undercover that’s gotta be nerve wracking. It’s, you know, and, and my handler was good at it, but [00:23:00] he would step out and let, here’s, I’ll tell you this. One day he calls me up and he goes, Hey, I’m down here in Fort Lauderdale. You need to come down here right now. And I’m having dinner at my house about 15 minutes away. Now he lives in Jacksonville. I go, what’s he doing in Fort Lauderdale? So I drive down to the hotel and he’s got a legal pad and a pen. He goes, my, uh, my, my seniors want to, uh, want you to proffer. You need to tell me everything you ever did. And they want me to do a proffer. And I go, I looked at him. I go, John, I can’t do that. He start, we start writing. I start telling him stuff. I stop. I go, I grew up in this town. Everybody I know I did a drug deal with from high school, I go, I would be giving you every single kid, every family, man, I grew up here. My, I’m gonna be in jail, and my wife and my one and a half year old daughter are gonna be the only people left in this town, and they’re not gonna have any support. And I just can’t do this to all my friends. Yeah. So he says, all right, puts the pen down. I knew [00:24:00] he hated paperwork, so I had a good shot. He wasn’t gonna, he goes, yeah, you hungry? I go, yeah. He goes, let’s go get a steak. And right across the street was a place called Chuck Steakhouse, which great little steak restaurant. All right. So we go over there, he goes, and he is a big guy. He goes, sit right here. I go, all right. So I sit down. I, I’m getting a free steak. I’m gonna sit about through the steak dinner, it goes. Look over my shoulder. So I do this. He goes, see the guy at the bar in the black leather jacket. I go, yeah. He goes, when I get up and walk outta here, when I clear the door, I want you to go up to him and find a talk drug deal. See what you can get out of him. I go, you want me to walk up to a complete stranger and say, he goes, I’m gonna walk out the door. When I get out the door. You’re gonna go up and say, cap Captain Bobby. That was his, he was a ca a boat captain and his nickname, his handle was Captain Bobby. And he was theoretically the next Vietnam vet that now is a smuggler, you know?[00:25:00] Yeah. And so he walks out the door and I walked out and sat with the guy at the bar and we started, I said, hi, captain Bobby sent me, I’m his right hand man, you know, to talk about. And we talked and I looked around the bar trying to see if anybody was with him. And I’m figuring, now I’m looking at the guy going, why is he so open with me? And I’m thinking, you know what? He’s wearing a leather jacket. He’s in Florida. I bet you he’s got a wire on and he’s working for customs and I’m working for the DEA, so nothing ever came of it. But you know, that was, you know, you’re sitting there eating dinner and all of a sudden, you know, look over my shoulder. Yeah. And, you know, and I’m trying to balance all that with having a newborn that’s about a year old and my wife and Yeah. Looking at 25 years. So a little bit of pressure. But, you know, hey and I understand these federal agencies, everybody’s got, everybody is, uh, uh, aggressive. Everybody is ambitious. And you just are this guy in the middle and right. And they’ll throw you to the [00:26:00] wolves in a second. Second, what have you done for a second? Right? It’s what have you done for me lately? He’s calling me up and said, Hey, I don’t got any product from you in a minute. I go, well, I’m working on it. He goes, well, you know, they’ll kick you outta the program. Yeah. But one of the things he did he was one of, he was the GS 13. So he had some, you know, he had level, you know, level 15 or whatever, you know, he was, yeah. Almost at the head of near retirement too. And he said, look, he had me, he had another guy that was a superstar, another guy. And we would work as a team and he would feed us all the leads. In other words, if David had a case, I’d be on that case. So when I went to go to go to trial or go to my final, he had 14 or 15 different things that he had penciled me in to be involved with. The biggest deal we did at the end of my two years with the DEA was we brought down the Canadian mob. They got him for 10,000 kilos of cocaine, import 10,000 kilos. It was the Hell’s Angels, the Rock something, motorcycle [00:27:00] gang, the Italian Mafia and the, and the Irish mob. Mm-hmm. And the guy, I mean, this is some badass guys. I was just a player, but. The state of Ohio, they got to fly up there and you know, I mean, no words, the dog and pony show was always on to give everybody, you know. Yes. A bite at the apple. Oh yeah. But I’ll tell you this, it’s been 33 years and the two people that I’m close to is my arresting officer in Ohio and my DEA handler in Jacksonville. The arresting officer, when he retired, he called to gimme his new cell phone. And every year or so I call him up around Christmas and say, Dennis, thank you for the opportunity to turn my life around, because I’ve got four great kids. I’ve started businesses, you know, he knows what I’ve done with my life. And the DEA handler, that’s, he’s a friend of mine. I mean, you know, we talk all the time and check on each other. And, you know, I mean, he’s, [00:28:00] they’re my friends. A lot of, not too many of the guys are left from those days that will talk to me. Yeah, probably not. And most of them are dead or in jail anyhow. For, well, a lot of ’em are, maybe not even because of you, I mean, because that’s their life. No, but a lot of them, a number of ’em turned their lives around, went into legal businesses and have done well. Yeah. So, you know, there really have, so not all of ’em, but a good share of ’em have turned, because we weren’t middle class kids. We were, my one friend was, dad was the lieutenant of the police department. The other one was the post guy. We weren’t inner city kids. Yeah. We weren’t meeting we, the drug war landed on us and we just, we were recruited into it. As young as I talk about in my book. But I mean, let’s talk about what’s going on now. Now. Yeah. And listen, I’m gonna put some statistics out there. Last year, 250,000 people were charged with cannabis. 92% for simple possession. There’s [00:29:00] people still in jail for marijuana doing life sentences. I’ve had friends do 27 years only for marijuana. No nonviolent crimes, first time offender. 22 years, 10 years. And the government is, I’ve been involved with things where the government was smuggling the drugs. I mean, go with the Iran Contra scandal that happened. We were trading guns for cocaine with the Nicaraguans in the Sandon Easterns. Yeah. Those same pilots. Gene Hassen Fus flew for Air America and Vietnam moving drugs and gun and, and guns out of Cambodia. Same guy. Air America. Yeah. The American government gave their soldiers opium in Civil War to keep ’em marching. You know, I mean, we did a deal with Lucky Luciano, where we let ’em out of prison for doing heroin exchange for Intel from, from Europe on during World War II and his, and the mob watching the docks for the, uh, cargo ships. So the government’s been intertwined in the war on drugs on two [00:30:00] sides of it. Yeah. You know, and not that it makes it right. Look, I’ve lost several friends to fentanyl that thought they were doing coke and did fentanyl or didn’t even know there was any. They just accidentally did fentanyl and it’s a horrible drug. But those boats coming out of Venezuela don’t have fentanyl on ’em. No. Get cocaine maybe. If that, and they might be, they’re probably going to Europe. Europe and they’re going to Europe. Yeah, they’re going, yeah. They’re doubt they’re going to Europe. Yeah. Yeah. And so let’s put it this way. I got busted for running a 12 year ongoing criminal enterprise. We moved probably 50 tons of marijuana. You know what? Cut me down? One guy got busted with one pound and he turned in one other guy that went all the way up to us. So if you blew up those boats, you know, you’re, you need the leads. You, you can’t kill your clients. Yeah. You know, how are you gonna get, not gonna get any leads outta that. Well, that’s, uh, well, I’m just saying [00:31:00] you right. The, if they followed the boat to the mothership Yeah. They’d have the whole crew and all the cargo. Yeah. You know, it’s, those boats maybe have 200 kilos on ’em. A piece. Yeah. The mothership has six tons. Yeah. That’s it. It’s all about the, uh, the, um, uh, optics. Optics, yeah. That’s the word. It’s all about the optics and, and the politic, you know, in, in some way it may deter some people, but I don’t, I I, I’ve never seen anything, any consequence. In that drug business, there’s too much money. There is no consequence that is really ever gonna deter people from smuggling drugs. Let me put it this way, except for a few people like yourself, there’s a few like yourself that get to a certain age and the consequence of going to prison for a long time may, you know, may bring you around or the, all the risk you’re taking just, you know, you can’t take it anymore, but you gotta do something. But no, well, I got busted twice. Consequence just don’t matter. There is no consequence that’s gonna do anything. Here’s why. And you’re right. [00:32:00] One is how do you get in a race car and not think you’re gonna die? Because you always think it’s gonna happen to somebody else. Exactly. And the drug business is the same. It’s, I’m not, it’s not gonna happen to me tonight. And those guys in Venezuela, they have no electricity. They have no water. Yeah. They got nothing. They have a chance to go out and make a couple thousand dollars and change their family’s lives. Yeah. Or they’re being, they’re got family members in the gar, in the gangs that are forcing them to do it. Yeah. It’s the war on drugs has kind of been a political war and an optics war from the seventies. I mean, it’s nobody, listen, I always say, I say in my book, nobody loved it more than the cops, the lawyers and the politicians. No shit. In Fort Lauderdale, they had nothing, and all of a sudden the drug wars brought night scopes and cigarette boats and fancy cars and new offices. Yes. And new courthouses, and new jails and Yep. I don’t have an answer. Yeah. The problem is, [00:33:00] you know what I’m gonna say, America, Mexico doesn’t have a drug problem. Columbia doesn’t have a drug problem. No. America has a drug problem. Those are just way stations to get the product in. In the cover of my book, it says, you don’t sell drugs, you supply them like ammunition in a war. It’s a, people, we, how do we fix this? How do we get the American people? Oh, by the way, here’s a perfect example. Marijuana is legal in a majority of states. You don’t see anybody smuggling marijuana in, I actually heard two stories of people that are smuggling marijuana out of the country. I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that. Yeah. They’re growing so much marijuana in America that it’s worth shipping to other places, either legally or illegally. Yeah. And, and, and you know, the biggest problem is like, what they’ll do is they’ll set up dispensaries, with the green marijuana leaf on it, like it’s some health [00:34:00] dispensary. But they, they just won’t it’ll be off the books. It just won’t have the licensing and all that. And, you know, you run that for a while and then maybe you get caught, maybe you don’t. And so it’s, you know, it’s, well, the other thing is with that dispensary license. It’s highly regulated, but you can get a lot of stuff in the gray. So there’s three markets now. There’s the white market, which is the legal Yeah. Business that, you know, you can buy stocks in the companies and whatnot. Yeah. There’s the black market, which is the guy on the street that Kenny Bear used to be. And then there’s the gray market where people are taking black market product and funneling it through the white markets without intact, you know, the taxes and the licensing and the, the, uh, testing for, you know, you have to test marijuana for pesticides. Metals, yeah. And, and the oils and the derivatives. You know, there’s oil and there’s all these derivatives. They have to be tested. Well, you could slide it through the gray market into the white market. So I know it’s a addiction, you know, whether it’s gambling or sex or Right. Or [00:35:00] there’s always gonna be people who are gonna take advantage and make money off of addiction. The mafia, you know, they refined it during the prohibition. All these people that drink, you know, and a lot, admittedly, a lot of ’em are social drinkers, but awful lot of ’em work. They had to have it. And so, you know, then gambling addiction. And that’s, uh, well here’s what I say. If it wasn’t for Prohibition Vegas, the mob never would’ve had the power and the money to build Vegas. No, they wouldn’t have anything. So when you outlaw something that people want, you’re creating a, a business. If, if somebody, somebody said the other day, if you made all the drugs legal in America, would that put out, put the drug cartels in Mexico and Columbia and out of business? Yeah, maybe. How about this statistic? About 20 to 30,000 people a year die from cocaine overdose. Most have a medical condition. Unknown unbe, besides, they’re not ODing on cocaine. Yeah. Alright. 300,000 people a year die from obesity. Yeah. And [00:36:00] another, almost four, I think 700, I don’t know, I might be about to say a half a million die from alcohol and tobacco. Mm-hmm. I could be low on that figure. So you’re, you probably are low. Yeah. I could be way more than that. But on my point is we’re regulating alcohol, tobacco, and certainly don’t care how much food you eat, and why don’t we have a medical system that takes care of these people. I don’t know that the answer if I did, but I’m just saying it, making this stuff more valuable and making bigger crime syndicates doesn’t make sense. Yeah. See a addiction is such a psychological, spiritual. Physical maldy that people can’t really separate the three and they don’t, people that, that aren’t involved and then getting some kind of recovery, they can’t understand why somebody would go back and do it again after they maybe were clean for a while. You know, that’s a big common problem with putting money into the treatment center [00:37:00] business. Yep. Because people do go to treatment two and three times and, and maybe they never get, some people never, they’ll chase it to death. No, and I can’t explain it. And you know, I, I’ll tell you what, I have my own little podcast. It’s called One Step Over the Line. Mm-hmm. And I released a show last night about a friend of mine, his name is Ron Black. You can watch it or any of your listeners can watch it, and Ron was, went down to the depths of addiction, but he did it a long time ago when they really spent a lot of time and energy to get, you know, they really put him through his system. 18 months, Ron got out clean and he came from a good family. He was raised right. He didn’t, you know, he had some trauma in his life. He had some severe trauma as a child, but he built one of the largest addiction. He has a company that he’s, he ran drug counseling services. He’s been in the space 20 or 30 years, giving back. He has a company that trains counselors to be addiction specialists. He has classes for addiction counseling. He become certified [00:38:00] members. He’s run drug rehabs. He donates to the, you know, you gotta wa if you get a chance to go to my podcast, one step over the line and, and watch this episode we did last night. Probably not the most exciting, you know, like my stories. Yeah. But Ronnie really did go through the entire addiction process from losing everything. Yeah. And pulling himself out. But he was also had a lot of family. You know, he had the right steps. A lot of these kids I was in jail with. Black and brown, inter or inner city youth, whatever, you know, their national, you know, race or nationality, they don’t have a chance. Yeah. They’re in jail with their fathers, their cousins, their brothers. Mm-hmm. The law, the war on drugs, and the laws on drugs specifically affect them. And are they, I remember thinking, is this kid safer in this jail with a cement roof over his head? A, a hot three hot meals and a bed than being back on the [00:39:00] streets? Yeah. He was, I mean. Need to, I used to do a program working with, uh, relatives of addicts. And so this mother was really worried about her son gonna go to jail next time he went to court. And he, she had told me enough about him by then. I said, you know, ma’am, I just wanna tell you something he’s safer doing about a year or so in jail than he is doing a year or so on the streets. Yeah. And she said, she just looked at me and she said, you know, you’re right. You’re right. So she quit worried about and trying to get money and trying to help him out because she was just, she was killing him, getting him out and putting him back on the streets. This kid was gonna die one way or the other, either shot or overdosed or whatever. But I’ll tell you another story. My best friend growing up in New Orleans was Frankie Monteleone. They owned the Monte Hotel. They own the family was worth, the ho half a billion dollars at the time, maybe. And Frankie was a, a diabetic. And he was a, a junk. He was a a because of the diabetic needles. [00:40:00] He kind of became a cocaine junkie, you know, shooting up coke. You know, I guess the needle that kept him alive was, you know, I, you know, again the addict mentality. Right, right. You can’t explain it. So he got, so he got busted trying to sell a couple grams. They made it into a bigger case by mentioning more product conspiracy. His father said, got a, the, the father made a deal to give him a year and a half in club Fed. Yeah. He could, you know, get a tan, practice his tennis, learn chess come out and be the heir to one of the richest families in the world, all right. He got a year and a half. Frankie did 10 years in prison. ’cause every time he got out, he got violated. Oh yeah. I remember going to his federal probation officer to get my bicycle. He was riding when he got violated. Mm-hmm. And I said, I said, sir, he was in a big building in Fort Lauderdale or you know, courthouse office building above the courthouse. I go, there’s so many cops, lawyers, [00:41:00] judges, that are doing blow on a Saturday night that are smoking pot, that are drinking more than they should all around us. You’ve got a kid that comes from one of the wealthiest families in America that’s never gonna hurt another citizen. He’s just, he’s an addict, not a criminal. He needs a doctor, not a jail. And you know what the guy said to me? He goes but those people aren’t on probation. I, I know. He did. 10 years in and out of prison. Finally got out, finally got off of paper, didn’t stop doing drugs. Ended up dying in a dentist chair of an overdose. Yeah. So you, you never fixed them, you just imprisoned somebody that would’ve never heard another American. Yeah, but we spent, it cost us a lot of money. You know, I, I, I dunno what the answer is. The war on drugs is, we spent over, we spent 80, let’s say since 1973. The, the DEA got started in 73, let’s say. Since that time we’ve, what’s that? 70 something years? Yeah. We’ve done [00:42:00] no, uh, 50, 60. Yeah. 50 something. Yeah. Been 50. We spent a trillion dollars. We spent a trillion dollars. The longest and most expensive war in American history is against its own people. Yeah. Trying to save ’em. I know it’s cra it’s crazy. Yeah, I know. And it, over the years, it just took on this life of its own. Yeah. And believe me, there was a, there’s a whole lot of young guys like you only, didn’t go down the drug path, but you like that action and you like getting those cool cars and doing that cool stuff and, and there’s TV shows about it as part of the culture. And so you’re like, you got this part of this big action thing that’s going on that I, you know, it ain’t right. I, I bigger than all of us. I don’t know. I know. All I like to say I had long hair and some New Orleans old man said to me when I was a kid, he goes, you know why you got that long hair boy? And this is 1969. Yeah, 70. I go, why is that [00:43:00] sir? He goes, ’cause the girls like it. The girls didn’t like it. You wouldn’t have it. I thought about it. I’m trying to be a hippie. I was all this, you know, rebel. I thought about it. I go, boy, he’s probably right. Comes down to sex. Especially a young boy. Well, I mean, I’m 15 years old. I may not even how you look. Yeah. I’m not, listen, at 15, I probably was only getting a second base on a whim, you know? Yeah. But, but they paid attention to you. Yeah. Back in those days you, you know, second base was a lot. Yeah. Really. I remember. Sure. Not as, not as advanced as they are today. I don’t think so. But anyway, that’s my story. Um, all right, Ken b this has been fun. It’s been great. I I really had a lot of fun talking to you. And the book is 1, 1, 1 took over the line. No one, no, no. That’s a Friday slip. One step over that. But that was what I came up with the name. I, I believe you, I heard that song. Yeah. I go, I know, I’m, I’ve just taken one step over the line. So that’s where the book actually one step over the line confessions of a marijuana mercenary. [00:44:00] And I’ll tell you, if your listeners go to my website, one step over the line.com, go to the tile that says MP three or the tile that says digital on that website. Put in the code one, the number one step, and then the number 100. So one step 100, they can get a free, they can download a free copy. Yeah, I got you. Okay. Okay. I appreciate it. That’d be good. Yeah, they’ll enjoy it. Yeah. And on the website there’s pictures of the boats, the planes. Yeah. The runways the weed the, all the pictures are there, family pictures, whatever. Well, you had a, uh, a magical, quite a life, the kinda life that they, people make movies about and everybody watches them and says, oh, wow, that’s really cool. But they didn’t have to do it. They didn’t have to pay that price. No. Most of the people think, the funny thing is a lot of people think I’m, I’m, I’m lying or I’m exaggerating. Yeah. I’m 68 years old. Yeah. There’s no reason for me to lie. And you know, the DEA is, I’m telling that. I’m just telling it the way it [00:45:00] happened. I have no reason to tell Phish stories at this point in my life. No, I believe it. No, no, no. It’s all true. All I’ve been, I’ve been around to a little bit. I, I could just talk to you and know that you’re telling the truth here I am. So, it’s, it’s a great story and Ken, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It’s been a very much a, it is been a real pleasure. It’s, it’s nice to talk to someone that knows both sides of the coin. Okay. Take care. Uh, thanks again. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Content warning: This episode contains discussion of rape (40:37–42:20). In this episode we ask Bob Stanley about his career as a writer and member of the beloved Saint Etienne, whose swansong year this is. We start with Caff, the '80s fanzine which set out the eclectic pop aesthetic that underpinned Saint Etienne, proceeding from there to Bob's memories of life on Melody Maker in the late '80s and early '90s. A clip of our guest's erstwhile MM colleague Simon Reynolds talking about Saint Etienne in 2021 is the cue for a general discussion of the trio's evolution over the last 35 years – and for an explanation of their (very amicable) decision to call it a day after a tour this September. Revisiting the epic "story of pop" that was Bob's 2013 tome Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! leads to clips from Hank Bordowitz's 1997 audio interview with the late Connie Francis, the Jersey girl who in the late '50s and early '60s was arguably the biggest female pop artist in America. After Mark pays a lifelong Deadhead's tribute to the late Bob Weir, he quotes from newly-added library pieces about the Nice (1967), Tom Wolfe (1969) and Paul McCartney (1979). Finally, Jasper sees us out with his thoughts on interviews with Ini Kamoze (1995) and D'Angelo (1998). Many thanks to special guest Bob Stanley. Visit his website at bobstanley.co.uk and find Yeah Yeah Yeah in all good bookshops. Pieces discussed: Saint Etienne, St. Etienne: Holier Than Thou, Saint Etienne: Cats Eyes and Legless, Bill Haley, Bob Stanley: Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! – The Story of Pop Music from Bill Haley to Beyoncé, Connie Francis was a trailblazing pop star haunted by tragedy, Connie Francis audio, The World According to Cliff, Alone again gratefully: Bob Weir proves he's more than Dead, The Nice, Tom Wolfe, Paul McCartney, Ini Kamoze, Voodoo Chile: D'Angelo and Yungblud.

Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this high-impact podcast episode to kick off 2026, Vince Menzione sits down with Jay McBain (Canalys/Informa) to decode the tectonic shifts reshaping the technology ecosystem. Jay reveals why the tech economy is forecasting double-digit growth while the broader economy lags, introducing a “Tale of Two Cities” where direct infrastructure sales are booming but partner influence is more critical than ever. He explains the drop in channel transact share to 66.7% and why the “96% Partner Assist” is the new metric for success. Jay also details the shift away from traditional “Gold/Silver/Bronze” programs toward point systems that recognize partners at every one of the “28 moments” in the customer journey, from influence to long-term retention. Key Takeaways The tech industry is forecast to grow 10.2% in 2026, outpacing the global economy’s 2.7% growth. Channel transact share has dropped from 75% to a forecast of 66.7% as infrastructure deals go direct. Nvidia and the “Magnificent Seven” are driving a massive direct infrastructure build-out for the next era. Microsoft measures a 96% “Partner Assist” rate, with up to seven partners involved in every deal. 80% of customers now prioritize partner certifications and competencies over relationships when choosing partners. The number one request from partners is to be recognized for value across all 28 moments, not just the point of sale. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags: Jay McBain, Canalys, Informa Tech, Partner Assist, 28 Moments, Tech Growth 2026, Channel Strategy, Nvidia, Infrastructure Buildout, Partner Economics, Microsoft Ecosystem, AWS, Direct Sales, Indirect Sales, Partner Influence, Multiplier Effect, Customer Journey, Partner Programs, Tech Economy, Ecosystem Orchestration. https://youtu.be/ntogEr6mjKg?si=_AaBPBfv9KcMRA9D Transcript: [00:00:00] Jay McBain: By the way, marketplaces, the massive growth in marketplaces for everyone that doesn’t own the marketplace is also an indirect sale. It should be helping these numbers. Yeah, so, but there’s one company that’s driving and happens to be the most valuable company in the world right now. [00:00:15] Vince Menzione: Let’s start off with the first, my burning question I have first, let’s cover it first. [00:00:21] Vince Menzione: If you had a sum up 2026 for partners in one sentence. What is it and what are people still underestimating? [00:00:29] Jay McBain: Yeah, it’s one, one word is probably opportunity. Opportunity. Um, so we look around the world, uh, the world economy without technology in it is gonna grow at 2.7%. That’s about $120 trillion with technology in it, technology industry, we’re forecasting to grow by double digits. [00:00:47] Jay McBain: Amazing. You know, in a world that’s growing at two, uh, we’re expecting 10.2%. Growth. And this industry, as you know, is surrounded by partners. Yes. And there are opportunities in hardware, in software, in services, in telco, all the different parts of the customer’s budget. And to look through the double digits though, I mean the, the extension of the sentence is, it’s a tale of two cities. [00:01:11] Jay McBain: Yeah. I was gonna ask you about this. Police do. There isn’t an opportunity in every slice. You know, some of the slices are shrinking by single digits. Some of them are growing by low single digits, but some of them are in the 20, 30, 40% growth range. And this is what partners are starting to think, these tectonic shifts that are happening, the ultimate partnerships that are happening are in very specific places that you kicked off this session talking about. [00:01:35] Vince Menzione: Yeah. So I would love to di dive in here because we have your, we have your slide up behind us. In fact, in talking about this $6.1 trillion economy around te uh, tech and telco and this opportunity. So, you know, we’re, there are gonna be winners and losers right in, in terms of these, uh, these segments or slices of the economy. [00:01:55] Vince Menzione: We can talk about that now. I, I think maybe it would be a good idea to talk about both the channel and, and why the par the channel plays such a big role in this growth. And then talk about what the winners and losers are gonna be. [00:02:07] Jay McBain: Yeah, I mean, broader. Um, actually if we go to the next, uh, slide, there is, um, a declining number and in the world economy that 120 trillion, 75% of it. [00:02:20] Jay McBain: Uh, moves indirectly. You bought your last car from a dealer. Yeah. You bought your last, uh, TV from a retailer, you know, peanut butter from a grocer, that type of thing. But the agencies, the brokers, the resellers, the retailers, the franchisees, the gas stations, pharmacies, grocery, all the different parts of the 27 industries, you know, play an incredible role. [00:02:40] Jay McBain: Our industry was at 75, not just three years ago. Wow. It dropped to 73.2. Two years ago, down to 70.1 last year, and this year’s forecast to be 66.7, so it’s dropping by about 3% each year and it’s this how money changes hands. Yeah. By the way, marketplaces, the massive growth in marketplaces for everyone that doesn’t own the marketplace is also an indirect sale. [00:03:05] Jay McBain: It should be helping these numbers. Yeah, so, but there’s one company that’s driving and happens to be the most valuable company in the world right now, Nvidia. Yeah. And the broader data center buildup mostly on consumer side, but this infrastructure data center build out globally happening right now is mostly happening direct. [00:03:22] Jay McBain: Yeah. There are the magnificent seven who are spending hundreds of billions of dollars each. On these chips and on this, uh, capability and capacity for this next 20 year era. And this is not a resell gain. They’re not buying through distribution and not buying through a reseller. And that’s where you talk about haves and have nots. [00:03:40] Jay McBain: You talk about this economy that, you know, Nvidia for example, was growing at triple digits, quarter in, quarter out, you know, becoming the most valuable company. And it’s not. A traditional technology opportunity, right? There isn’t managed service providers inside these data centers. There isn’t technology folks like VARs and system integrators in plugging in the equipment. [00:04:02] Jay McBain: Yeah. So we gotta watch and, and look at where this next shift takes us and where this multiplier opportunity wraps around it. So that’s the second number here. 96%. Which hasn’t changed. This is a number by the way, that Microsoft measures Yes. Understand. And, and Microsoft looks at it and, you know, second most valuable company in the world measures every deal they’re in and then have been for decades. [00:04:26] Jay McBain: And they measure this 96% of partner assist upwards of seven partners in every one of their deals. And looking at this partner assist number is what drives them. And in Microsoft’s case. You know, perhaps without a better product price or uh, promotion than their lead competitor. AWS, they’ve outgrown them for 26 straight quarters. [00:04:45] Jay McBain: Yes. And they point to place as the reason why that two, three, maybe even four of those seven partners may be leading with Microsoft in critical moments. And so every company, large, medium, and small, look at this partner assist number. And this is where we take that ecosystem conversation. [00:05:02] Vince Menzione: So with 96% partner assist, why do partners touch, touching, everything still feel invisible in many cases. [00:05:11] Vince Menzione: And what’s the one move that they, they make? Or need to make to make them undeniable to [00:05:15] Jay McBain: vendors in 2026? Yeah, I mean, this is a long legacy. There’s 44 years of legacy of being measured at the point of sale where programs were built and paid at the point of sale. Yeah. Assuming you did a bunch of stuff like consulting and design and advisory before the point of sale, assuming you’re gonna stay after the sale and get the renewal and get the upsell, cross sell, and enrichment, there was this assumption, but you were really recognized only at one moment. [00:05:41] Jay McBain: And when we did the survey last year across, you know, 20,000 partners around the world, the number one thing they’re asking vendors for now. Is to recognize, measure monitor me at every moment. Mm-hmm. 28 of them before the sale every 30 days. Forever after the sale. Yep. At the point of sale, the provisioning, the procurement, all the pieces of where we add value. [00:06:02] Jay McBain: And now Microsoft was one of the leaders that came out with a point system over three years ago to say, we’re gonna start measuring and, you know, spreading the program dollars around a little bit like peanut butter. There’s over 400 companies now who have followed suit. You know, Cisco goes live in two weeks, so we’re in this mode now where the world is changing of economics, of partnering. [00:06:23] Jay McBain: It’s changing how recognition happens and it’s the number one thing partners want. [00:06:27] Vince Menzione: Yeah, we’re moving away from the gold, silver, bronze, uh, days of the past and, and tying ’em to these moments. In particular, the Ultimate Partner Winter retreat is gonna be here in the Boca Studio. This is the third year. [00:06:41] Vince Menzione: That we’re gonna be here in Boca. This is always a favorite of our community members, our executive members, our sponsors and speakers. We’ll all be here in the studio, which is a really intimate setting. We can see it upwards of 40, 50 people. We’ll be hosting an incredible dinner at the Boca Resort overlooking the golf course. [00:07:01] Vince Menzione: That’s an incredible property and uh, we’d love to have you join us. Thank you for being part of the ultimate Partner community, and I hope to see you this year at one of our events. Thank you.

Ped & Burk welcome back Brad Elder to the podcast. The boys let Brad know about their chance getting to be a WWE heel. Adam marveled at chef Jet Tila mastering his craft, which leads the boys to ponder on what they are experts at. We remember the first ever comedy specials we fell in love with. Another edition of Number Ones, and then Burk lists this week's perfect song. In the Meat, Mm!, of the episode the boys pivot from a draft to a list of their all-time top 5 Italian dishes. In the 90's quick hitter we close the show discussing our decked out cars from high school. Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

In Episode 4 of Allegedly Sports, M|M and Tom Schneider recap an action packed NFL Wild Card weekend and dive into the bigger conversations shaping both football and basketball right now, from quarterback expectations and playoff pressure to player safety, coaching stability, and the changing identity of the NBA. The episode opens with a breakdown of the NFL playoff slate, including close games across the board and why public criticism of quarterbacks like Justin Herbert often ignores context. M|M and Tom discuss offensive line injuries, unrealistic fan expectations, and why playoff losses are not always quarterback indictments. The conversation touches on Drake Maye's first playoff appearance, Caleb Williams' growth, Brock Purdy's efficiency, Jalen Hurts criticism in Philadelphia, and why fans often overreact despite recent success. From there, the focus shifts to injury trends and player safety, sparked by George Kittle's Achilles injury and broader concerns around ligament and tendon injuries across the league. M|M and Tom debate field conditions, turf versus grass, stadium standards, and whether the NFL should implement stricter field regulations to reduce catastrophic injuries. They also discuss the physical toll of longer seasons and why availability remains the most important ability. The episode then moves into the NFL coaching carousel, quarterback durability, and the fine line mobile quarterbacks must walk between making plays and preserving their careers. Comparisons range from Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen to Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, and Derrick Rose, highlighting how adaptability often separates long term success from unrealized potential. On the NBA side, M|M and Tom break down a Celtics versus Pacers matchup, Jaylen Brown's ongoing tension with officiating, Nike, and league respect, and the reality of illegal screens across the league. They also zoom out to discuss Victor Wembanyama's trajectory, international stars, and whether the NBA's current generation resonates the same way past eras did. The conversation explores star power, changing viewing habits, and why the NBA playoffs still deliver a more compelling product than the regular season. The episode closes with full NFL Divisional Round predictions, including Patriots versus Texans, Bills versus Broncos, Bears versus Rams, and Seahawks versus 49ers, with honest uncertainty, bold picks, and a reminder that playoff football always exposes weaknesses. As always, Allegedly Sports delivers real conversation, thoughtful disagreement, and context driven analysis without manufactured takes. Topics Covered NFL Wild Card recap and playoff competitiveness Justin Herbert criticism and quarterback context Drake Maye, Caleb Williams, Brock Purdy, and Jalen Hurts evaluations Injury trends, Achilles tears, and field conditions Turf versus grass and NFL stadium standards Player availability and career longevity Mobile quarterbacks and self preservation Coaching stability and the NFL carousel Celtics versus Pacers game breakdown Jaylen Brown, officiating, and league respect Victor Wembanyama and the NBA's changing guard International stars and NBA star power Regular season versus playoff basketball NFL Divisional Round predictions

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Featuring perspectives from Dr Sagar Lonial and Dr María-Victoria Mateos, including the following topics:  Introduction (0:00) Best of ASH Multiple Myeloma (1:56) Case: A man in his late 50s with t(11;14) IgA kappa myeloma discovered during workup for new Stage IV kidney disease who has a chest wall plasmacytoma receives daratumumab with CyBorD and radiation therapy to the plasmacytoma with minimal response — Jeremy Lorber, MD (8:35) Antibody-Drug Conjugates and Other Emerging Novel Therapies for Relapsed/Refractory (R/R) Multiple Myeloma (MM) — Dr Lonial (16:58) Case: A man in his mid 80s with severe obesity and coronary artery disease, chronic heart failure and sleep apnea receives belantamab mafodotin with low-dose pomalidomide for multiregimen-relapsed myeloma — Neil Morganstein, MD (27:57) Case: A man in his mid 60s with a history of stroke with aphasia receives teclistamab for multiregimen-relapsed MM after daratumumab, proteasome inhibitors, immunomodulatory drugs and selinexor — Justin Favaro, MD, PhD (34:42) Integrating Chimeric Antigen Receptor (CAR) T-Cell Therapy and Bispecific Antibodies into the Management of R/R MM — Dr Mateos (39:09) Case: A man in his early 70s with kappa light chain myeloma experiences complete response on cilta-cel CAR T-cell therapy with hypogammaglobulinemia requiring IVIG and develops melanoma of the abdominal wall — Bhavana (Tina) Bhatnagar, DO (52:07) Case: A man in his mid 50s with heavily relapsed MM who received multiple prior lines of therapy, including CAR T-cell therapy, receives talquetamab — Priya Rudolph, MD, PhD (55:44) CME information and select publications

There's a lot of martial arts content online that looks impressive—but taken out of context, it can confuse people fast.In this episode of The John Hallett Podcast, we break down one of the biggest misconceptions in self-defense training: the belief that any system—Krav Maga included—can magically neutralize a highly trained fighter.That's not reality.If someone has years of boxing, wrestling, or BJJ experience, and you've been training for six months, you're already behind. Anyone telling you otherwise is selling fantasy.What Krav Maga is designed to do is far more honest—and far more useful.It focuses on teaching the 20% of skills that solve about 80% of real-world problems:Awareness De-escalationGross-motor, high-percentage movementsDecision-making under stressThat matters because most real-world attacks aren't clean, technical, or fair. They're chaotic. Emotional. Close. And often involve people with little to no formal training—not elite competitors.We also talk about how social media creates false comparisons:Competition techniques shown as “self-defense”Advanced movements taught to beginnersVideos designed to “debunk” other systems by changing the contextThat's not education. That's confusion.Self-defense isn't about winning exchanges or proving superiority. It's about using the right tool for the right moment—or better yet, avoiding the fight entirely when possible.One example we discuss: a training scenario where de-escalation was the correct answer—but a student defaulted to striking simply because they were “in range.” That choice escalated a situation that didn't need to become violent.That's a training failure—not a technique failure.The takeaway is simple:Context mattersProbability mattersPrinciples matter more than flashy techniquesAnd most of all, how you train is how you default under stress.If your training ignores awareness, escalation control, and decision-making, no amount of technique will save you.

Gissele: [00:00:00] With Martin Luther King, Jr Wright, does love have the power to turn an enemy into a friend? Gissele: Does it have the power to heal? we’re creating an inspiring documentary, courage to love the Power of Compassion, which explores their extraordinary stories of those who have chosen to do the unthinkable, love and forgive even those who are most hurtful. Through their journeys, we will uncover the profound impact of forgiveness and love. Gissele: Have not only of those offering it, but also on those receiving it.  In addition, we’ll hear from experts who will explore whether love and compassion are part of our human nature. And how we can bridge divides with those with disagree with. If you’d like to support our film, please donate a www M-A-I-T-R-I-C-E-N-T-R e.com/documentary. Gissele: That’s maitricentre.com/documentary. Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion [00:01:00] Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking about how love binds us with others, including those of crossed over. Gissele: We’ll be talking with Rebecca Schaper about communicating with animals on the other side after the sudden and unexpected passing of Rebecca Schaper dog’s. Gus. She consulted animal communicator Sonny Mann, beginning a lengthy and revealing correspondence. Gissele: Sonny reported her dialogue with Gus in the afterlife at various times throughout the next year. This moving story includes the transcripts of those psychic sessions, along with Rebecca’s notes from her daily journal as she responds to both the earthly and spiritual guidance from Gus. His spirit describes his life in both worlds. Gissele: He urges her to embrace fully her life contract as a Shamaic practitioner and healer. Please join me in [00:02:00] welcoming Rebecca. Gissele: Hi, Rebecca. Hi. Rebecca: Thank you so much for having me. I’m looking forward to this wonderful conversation. Gissele: Thank you so much for being on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you started this journey of, communicating with Gus on the other side. Rebecca: Sure. 2023. My dog Gus died unexpectedly on December 7th. Mm-hmm. he was six years old. He was my co-pilot. He was definitely my soul dog. It was as though we knew each other in the past life and we communicated to each other telepathically, and of course it broke my heart wide open. To the point where I was worse than losing my parents by suicide and. Rebecca: I’ve never felt grief like that in my life. So in January of [00:03:00] 2024, which was a month after he had passed away, I decided to reach out to a pet communicator because I knew I needed help. and I knew I could not do this on my own. Normally, I can work through situations. I’ve had some real trauma in my life, which I’m grateful for. Rebecca: because it’s definitely led me to a lot of love and compassion like your show. But I knew at this point I definitely needed help. So I communicated with Sonny, asked her if she’d be willing to communicate with my dog, Guss. And what she would do is she would, go into some type of trance is the correct. Rebecca: Word to use, but she was just able to have that strong telepathic connection and she would ask him questions. And then after she was done, I mean it wore her out. She told me, she said, it’s [00:04:00] very taxing on the body. And so after she was done with that first session. I was blown away with what, with what the information she had told me. Rebecca: And so fast forward, we had 10 sessions, so she would transcribe ’em to me because she lived in Australia and the time zone was difficult. And a couple of times we chatted with each other and then I would journal my comments to the comments between Gus and Sonny this book is a three way conversation and so there you go. Rebecca: And it, she was really able to provide a lot of healing for me. And Gissele: what were some of the messages thatwere unique to you in Gus’s experience that most people wouldn’t have known? Rebecca: Yes, I will definitely share a few. One of ’em was she saw the word beck [00:05:00] and Gus said, that’s my mom, Beck, her brother David calls her Beck and. Rebecca: There’s no way that Sonny would’ve known that. I mean, there’s just no way. Because he was communicating to her. He said, yes, that’s my mom. Beck, her brother David calls her back. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rebecca: And then another one, which I felt was really profound. We hiked to Machu Picchu and the day one of the days was on my husband’s and i’s anniversary and I had to look down and there was, I wish I had it with me, but I think it’s on the altar table, Rebecca: it had a heart shaped stone. And I thought, oh my God, on that anniversary, how beautiful. So I kept it with me. Fast forward after Gus had passed away, I was sitting outside [00:06:00] and I was doing some meditation and just kind of working through, Rebecca: really tapping into the stone and some other stones I collected accidentally dropped the heart stone and it broken three pieces. Hmm. And I thought to myself, oh my gosh, is this a sign saying that my heart is broken? Of Gus. So I was devastated. Rebecca: The next day, I walked down, I go to this fire pit’s made outta stone and Guss and my daughter’s dog, Stella would always get on top of that fire pit and they would walk around it and try to find chipmunks. So this was like, you know, a constant thing. So anyway, I would go and put my bird seed on top of the rim of the fire pit so I could feed the birds. And I just happened to look down and there was a heart stone, almost the same shape and size. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rebecca: And, to me I [00:07:00] was like, that. So profound and so stunning and it just warmed my heart completely. And, another one, I’m at my beach house now. Rebecca: We have this area where you can look out over the marsh, and he would always be with me in a red chair is a cushion. And he talked about the red chair and the fire pit looking out over the marsh to her. Mm-hmm. So there’s many more, but that’s what comes to the forefront to me as of now. Gissele: Were there any messages from Sonny and Gus around the relationship between human beings and animals and even the connection and nature that we might have lost? Rebecca: Oh, most definitely. Rebecca: I felt like Gus was trying to communicate, saying they always want to be with you. Gissele: Hmm. Always. Rebecca: they’re always there, They definitely can talk to [00:08:00] you. even the most subtle ways. They speak to you, they can speak to you through songs, which Gus used to speak to me through songs. Rebecca: There’s one of my favorite songs over the Rainbow. And they were unbelievable synchronicities when that song would come on when I was grieving. Mm-hmm. And I knew that was him. They communicate through numbers, they communicate, they can communicate in so many ways. One of the key factors is, is being aware of it Rebecca: It’s to me. It has opened my eyes wide open to whole different realms of communication and not just dogs, cats, any type of animal in nature. Rebecca: ’cause I am very much in tune with nature and they are here to help us. We just have to open up our hearts. [00:09:00] Open up our hearts and listen. trust is a big issue. And one other thing every time I would get a message that I knew intuitively, I knew that was something from Gus. Rebecca: I felt it in my body. I would always say thank you. I would. Be very heartfelt in saying thank you because it’s a gift. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing how we’ve been taught that we are separate from animals and that there’s this hierarchy. Gissele: And so it probably is challenging for people to. To understand or believe that they can communicate with animals. there’s not this hierarchy that somehow human beings know better. Do you believe that people sort of have a contract or agreement even with their animals before they incarnate? Rebecca: Absolutely. Absolutely. I know I did with Gus and now we have a new dog, [00:10:00] Zeke. Gissele: Hmm. Rebecca: And he is from the same breed and from the same breeder, and how synchronicity led up to that. And he’s into my life for a reason as well. Mm. There is no doubt in my mind. I mean, I think about animals. You think about your family. Rebecca: I believe is a contract. Rebecca: if people will look for the lessons and the connection, or even if you’re out and about and you see somewhere and you’re like, God, that energy feels very similar. I feel like I know that person. Rebecca: That could be. A contract soul connection, but you just may not know at that time. Gissele: Yeah. is there some specific practices that you use to help you get in tune? Because sometimes our own emotions can get in the way. Gissele: I lost my dog last November and. I’m very, very grateful for the lessons and the being that he was. Gissele: But I also miss him a lot. [00:11:00] And I know my kids are eager to get another dog, but I’m just like, Gissele: It’s not the right time and I don’t want another dog. I want my dog back. Which is, can we pause Yeah. Rebecca: if you put that intention out Gissele: mm-hmm. Rebecca: Ask your dog. You can have your dog reincarnate and soul dog a new dog, but you’ll know. Gissele: True. Rebecca: you’ll know if you’re supposed to, and that dog, I promise, if you’re open and expanded to it and ask, it will happen. Gissele: my challenge Rebecca is, I also don’t wanna be the type of person that would hold back another soul for my own ego needs, right? Like my dog’s time with me was very, very special and he taught me so much. Gissele: But maybe his journey is to go on and do something else. Like I would never want to hold another soul hostage for my own needs. [00:12:00] And I think that’s what’s been preventing me from. Making that desire request. I’ve heard of from people, lots of different people like yourself included, talking about like, my dog has been reincarnated into this new dog. Gissele: I can feel it. And there signs and all of that stuff. That is wonderful. But I think one of the things my dog taught me was that, that loving without attachment and needing to hold onto the soul. the ability to be able to be grateful for the experiences we had and be open to different experiences. Gissele: I Rebecca: hear you and I validate exactly what you’re saying because I found myself the pain was so excruciating that I found myself forcing Gus to come back. Yeah. And I came to a point where I can’t do this. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: I can’t force it. If he’s supposed to come back, [00:13:00] then so be it. And I had to let go. Mm-hmm. So maybe in your situation, just say if, if it’s meant to be. It will be. If not, then you’re grateful for the time together. And that’s kind of how I’m at. Yeah. And I understand. Yeah. But I’ve heard people where their dogs have reincarnated. Rebecca: It’s pretty astounding some of the stories. Gissele: Mm-hmm. definitely. And I like what you said in terms of our willingness to let go because. Maybe my dog’s journey is to reincarnate and come back in a different way and have a different experience. Or maybe it’s not, I think it’s that willingness which I in the past have not had. Gissele: I think I it’s like you said, totally normal grieve those experiences. It was my first dog ever. and he was just so special And I didn’t wanna replace that dog and expect another dog to take that place, so, [00:14:00] Rebecca: exactly. Yeah. A lot of people feel guilty about Rebecca: that. Rebecca: And I felt guilty about that too. And I thought, okay, it’s amazing how Zeke, how everything aligned and am I going to love this dog as much as I did? Gus, am I gonna be fair Rebecca: to this? Rebecca: But it’s pretty incredible the gifts and the lessons that Zeke is showing us. And I do, I honestly say, and my husband feels this too, we do see Gus kind of soul dogging Zeke at times. Rebecca: I was told they’re brothers Gissele: Yeah, for sure. Rebecca: You’ll figure Speaker 9: it out. Gissele: How did compassion and love help you through the grieving process? Because every, all of us experience loss, Rebecca: My situation with Gus losing a dog or losing parents by suicide, that really opened up. My [00:15:00] heart opened up my compassion and to see other people suffering who have may have gone through that same trauma, Rebecca: it opens my heart up because I can hold space with that person. sometimes we wanna fix it for the individual, but it’s not our place to fix it. Gissele: did the fact that you don’t believe in death. I mean if you, if you went right away after your loss to find someone to communicate them, you must not believe in death. Gissele: Did that actually help you overcome ’cause to lose parents, to lose a dog that was your soul dog? Those, those are fairly significant losses. Did that awareness help you not feel grief in the same way? And what helped you gain that understanding that maybe there’s a little bit more to life than just this bag of bones in this particular experience and [00:16:00] time? Rebecca: Very good question. Rebecca: Mm-hmm. both of my parents dying by suicide and my brother passing away, I saw my mother at the doorway after she, passed away, I was able to connect with my father and my brother. There were ways that I could connect with him, so that helped me a lot because it gave me a sense that it’s not final. Rebecca: they’re still there. they’re the ones that still wanna help your path, your journey, your life here. And I believe that even though it was a difficult childhood, but I was same time, I was very blessed because it wouldn’t have been able to, do the documentary to help others, all of that. Rebecca: It, it was a curse, but a blessing in the same way. And I’m forever grateful for it. And I, to this day, and until I die, I will always believe [00:17:00] that. My life steps have been interesting situations, but it has just opened up so much more. And different ways to look at death. Rebecca: I do not think death is final Gissele: though. Yeah. And I think that’s one of like the biggest hurdles that humanity has to overcome. I think that our fear of death is so huge that I think if we could realize that there isn’t death, not death in the way that we perceive it to be, that we stop existing and we’re just nothing we think that’ll open up people to be more courageous and to truly live their dreams. Gissele: But I think people’s fear of death can feel really challenging and It’s hard for us to understand that there is much more beyond even if you’ve had spiritual experiences to truly believe that, this life is just one chapter in a larger book of this being that encompasses this [00:18:00] particular body. Rebecca: I’m one of those that I know I’ll reincarnate again. Think about our ancestors. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: they’re here to help. Even on the land of wherever you walk, everywhere you go, the ancestors are there to help. Rebecca: It’s just opening, opening and expanding yourself Gissele: to tune Rebecca: in. Gissele: Yeah, so were you aware before your communication with Gus that you had a life contract as a Shamanic practitioner and healer? Or was it something that you discovered in your communication with Gus, through Sonny or Personally? Rebecca: I’ve always wanted. To do that. you know, it’s interesting you say that ’cause I go back and look in my journals and I have written years and years that that’s what I wanted to [00:19:00] do. And so prior to Gus’s death, it was, 23 in October is when I started working with the shamans Rebecca: And when Gus passed away, he was pushing me on the other side I don’t know how he knew that. You know, here’s the thing. I think dogs, even though we’re, if I was standing in right here, and say, Zeke or Gus was here, they’re so in tune to what we do energetically Rebecca: I’m sure Gus was in tune to what I was doing Gissele: so what are some of the things you’ve learned from your shamanic teachers about sort of this consciousness evolution that human beings seem to be going through? Rebecca: it’s a balance between here and the upper world. Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. We Rebecca: try to walk that balance, and the best way I can explain for myself is just Exude as much light as I can and be the true [00:20:00] person that I am. Of course, there are days where I can be crunchy you know, I’m human, but I can get myself back into balance and I just, Rebecca: I don’t like focusing on all the chaos and bringing a negative energy to that because I think that exacerbates it. I just try to be a positive light and maybe just saying hello to some person you don’t know, a smile on their face, who’s to say you may have made their day. Rebecca: Simple things like that. Gissele: Yeah, and I think you said two key things. Number one is the balance. I think that if we, each of us individually on our journeys found a balance, then I think that then we could create systems that were more balanced than they currently are now, and have leaders that, you know, reflect that balance. Gissele: And you [00:21:00] mentioned the importance of. Little tiny things. People think, well, you know, we gotta fix the war in Gaza. Or, you know, there’s all these other wars that are happening that are not being reported. Just living a life of love and compassion and light and kindness towards others. Like you said has a ripple effect. Gissele: ’cause many people, they’re war within their own homes. Yes. They’re in war, within their own relationships and they, they’re not willing to fix war, fix it Rebecca: themselves. Gissele: Yeah. And they’re not willing to fix that. But then they wanna fix the world, which really doesn’t make a lot of sense because the world really is a mirror of all of us. Gissele: And so fixing ourselves I think would go a long way and, and really. Helping us heal as, as a humanity, right? Rebecca: Yes. And, I also believe we’re having to, go through all this Hmm. To get to the light. [00:22:00] Truly, this is a very phenomenal time right now in history. It certainly feels phenomenal. Rebecca: but, it’s like clearing all the stuff to get to where we really wanna be. I know it’s tough, but Yeah. We just have to stay strong and stay in joy. Try to stay in joy. I go in nature all the time. Mm-hmm. that’s my balanced place. Nature. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: Yeah. And no doubt. Gissele: Yeah, definitely. And what helps you stay in Joy when it feels like sometimes the world is so chaotic, or When our minds are so chaotic. What helps you stay in joy? You mentioned nature. Are there any other things that you do to keep Rebecca: your joy? my dog, my husband, my family. Rebecca: Of course, when I wake up and I look at the sunrise, it’s just an experience that I have and that brings me such joy and [00:23:00] I’m make it a point to do that every day and close the evening. Same way watching the sunset. Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Because it’s very important to me. Gissele: Yeah. appreciating all the beauty, yes. That already exists that’s one of the issues with electronics, right? Like people really focus on their social media or electronics, but we’re missing all the beauty and the wonder that is outside, that is present right now. Rebecca: Yes. It’s, even the subtle things in life. Mm-hmm. Yes. It’s like stepping out and seeing an incredible cardinal. The coloring. Gissele: Yeah. So going back to the conversation with animals. So did the relationship with Sonny and in conversation with Gus help you then become more attuned with communicating with other animals? Rebecca: Yes. Gissele: What about insects? I Rebecca: I struggle with the insects. I have to be honest here and I, ’cause I’m very honest. [00:24:00] Speaker 7: Yeah. I often Rebecca: since insects except for fleas, mosquitoes and roaches and ticks. I’ll just try to scoop it up and put it outside. Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Somewhere I got a tick on the back of me two weeks ago, I know they’re all part of creation, but there’s just something about that. Gissele: nice. There’s a real struggle there’s an aspect of me that is like everything is of God and source universe, right? Gissele: And I’m not separate from anything. And at the same time, there’s a small part of me that still sees herself as a victim, which is like, that could bite me and has bit me. that could hurt me So I don’t wanna experience that. And so that memory, it’s hard for me to be in that kind of harmony with nature in that sense and see myself as not separate from it. Rebecca: I really try to get in that mindset, but when that insect does something Rebecca: to my [00:25:00] animal, to my dog, I, Rebecca: Do what I gotta do. Gissele: I wonder why they cause so much chaos. My husband and I were talking about this like where did this mosquitoes come from? Gissele: There’s this country that doesn’t have mosquitoes. I can’t remember which country it is. Apparently they’ve Rebecca: really weird. Yeah, Gissele: that’s what I was trying to remember. I don’t know. I saw it on social media. Gissele: I don’t know is it possible for us to live in harmony with all beings? Rebecca: That’s a really good question, and I think it’s a really. Tough one for a lot of people because you know, if you’re being infested by mosquitoes or stinging flies. Rebecca: That’s, yeah. Well, Gissele: my daughter was saying, because we go for walks, If you wear a dragonfly hat, the bugs will not bug you because Dragonflies are a natural predator. Oh yeah, because, so I order some from Amazon. Rebecca: Oh my God. Gissele: What is it called? Share [00:26:00] Dragon. Fly clips. So this was all over TikTok just a fake dragonfly that you can clip on your hat or you can clip it somewhere in your body and they will not come near you because they’ll think that it’s a real dragonfly and dragonflies are natural predators and so they won’t come near you. Gissele: Yeah. I haven’t tried it yet, but I’ve ordered it Rebecca: I do use, use all natural repellents like garlic. Yeah. Or apple cider vinegar. I’ve heard that works. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, Gissele: There’s hope. There is absolutely hope so that we don’t have to harm them and they can leave us alone. Gissele: So, yeah, it’s like, hopefully that works because I don’t wanna kill them and I don’t wanna put bug off stuff on my person. they have a right to exist. I just have a right to not be bitten. So if the dragonflies can help me, that would be good. Rebecca: I’m going to get that. Rebecca: I love it. Gissele: So tell us a little bit about your book. When does it come out? Rebecca: Okay. It, it was published April 9th. Oh, nice. Gissele: Okay. Rebecca: And it’s on Amazon. People can order it on [00:27:00] Amazon, and if people wanna reach out to me, it’s rebeccaschaper.com. Gissele: Sounds good. and you have a previous book you said. Rebecca: Yes, it’s the backbone of the Sister’s Call documentary that I had a calling to. Rebecca: That’s a whole different story. And then the light in his soul lessons from my brother’s schizophrenia. here’s one thing I would love for your audience to take away, is you think you’re going down one way with your career. I had no idea. I’m not a filmmaker. Rebecca: I’m not a writer. I had never written a book, any of that, but I had people walk into my life. So you have people. That help you for your purpose, and the universe will course correct you. You’re like, okay, I got this calling, so I need to listen and I need to make it happen. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. I totally agree with that. Gissele: That has been [00:28:00] my experience as well, in terms of being called to do something. I never thought like this podcast is one of ’em, right. I thought I was gonna be working within the child welfare system until the day that I died. And so, yeah, like doing some of the things I’ve done were sort of like a higher calling, but not anything that my ego self had thought or desired. Gissele: Right. Right. none of these things were in my plan. Rebecca: Yeah. It comes totally unexpected. You’re like, what? It’s like a download and Gissele: Yeah, and, The interesting part is that sometimes it doesn’t mean what you think it means either, right? so like you was guided to write a book and then I thought, well, maybe the book is it. Gissele: This is what I’m gonna do, and it did well. But then that wasn’t supposed to be the thing. Because then because of the book, I did a TEDx talk and because of the TEDx talk, I’m now doing this documentary, so it’s steps I couldn’t have put [00:29:00] together. and what you had said earlier, it takes an enormous amount of trust. Gissele: Yes. even with communicating with animals on the other side. It takes trust because it goes against the grain of what we’ve been taught. We’ve been taught that, you know, seeing is believing, right? it’s only what I can physically touch or feel with my senses that is real or truth. what helped you gain trust in your life in that inner guidance or voice? Rebecca: Doing the documentary, it took 14 years. Gissele: Oh, wow. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about it? Rebecca: Sure. It’s a documentary about my families when I was growing up. There’s sexual abuse in there. there’s alcoholism talked about in there. There’s suicide talked about in there. And mental health. Both my mother and brother were quote. Rebecca: Diagnosed with [00:30:00] paranoid schizophrenia, and to this day, I’ll never believe that. I think they were hearing other dimensions, but anyway. Mm-hmm. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rebecca: My brother left and was missing for 20 years, but I always knew he was alive, always, and through a miracle. It was time for us to find each other and he was the catalyst of the film. Rebecca: And that’s when I got this calling. And I wanted to, express to people that he’s not this diagnosis. He is a person’s he is an incredible loving individual very. Observant and he passed away 2012. his contract was up and but the thing is, I learned so much through doing all of this and I hope that people were, able to relate [00:31:00] that. Rebecca: having, medication isn’t always the cure and I fought for that for a long time. So it’s a very vulnerable, very transparent, it speaks the truth and it’s a tough film to watch but it’s a also a very happy film.And it gives people hope and it’s through forgiveness and compassion. Gissele: Which I feel are very important messages. It’s interesting. I used to work at somewhere called cmh, which was a center for mental health and addictions. And I used to help as a student run a social program for people who were diagnosed with schizophrenia. And I remember having a conversation with individuals and they would talk about how. Gissele: The awareness that they had when they would have episodes some of the reasons why they didn’t take their medication, especially young women, they would gain weight. And so they didn’t feel that the doctors always understood the [00:32:00] other impacts of the medication and the stigma that they felt that was out there like every person who is diagnosed with schizophrenia is violent. Gissele: And somehow it’s gonna lead to them killing someone, which was not true at all. These people were very kind and generous, and, compassionate. and vulnerable. They were more vulnerable to harm themselves than to harm someone else. But there’s always this misconception because there’s always so much fear you know, fear causes us to kind of dehumanize others, right? Gissele: Because we’re so stuck in survival. Documentaries like yours and conversations really help us have more compassion for others when we have greater understanding that just because somebody’s going through something does not mean that they’re gonna harm someone else. Gissele: And so I think that’s a very important message. Rebecca: Absolutely. And I felt like that with the voices that he was hearing, because he was extremely empathic. [00:33:00] Gissele: Mm-hmm. And Rebecca: he was just tuning in. And my mother, same thing. They were tuning in and they didn’t know how to channel all these voices that they were hearing from dimensions. Gissele: of course. Yeah, So last question. What is your definition of unconditional love? Rebecca: Oh, that’s such a good question. Hmm. Seeing the person for who they really are Gissele: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca: Let them be seen for who they really are without any judgment. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. You could remove the lens of judgment. We could see each other as as authentically as we truly are. Exactly the beautiful way to end. Rebecca: Thank you, and I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Yeah. I’m so glad we could connect. Gissele: Yes, me too. Thank you so, so much for being [00:34:00] on the show, and thank you for those who tune into the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Rebecca: Bye bye. Thank you.

E hoje é dia de MacMagazine no Ar!

Kiera and Tiff are on the pod together to ask, What are you working toward? Your professional purpose can often get lost when you're too buried in work, and the two invite listeners to take a step back and ask themselves key questions in order to recenter. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and it is Spiffy Tiffy and Kiera back on the podcast. I messaged Tiff and just said, Hey, are you free? Because the topic today, I actually think Tiff and I can really rift on of such a solid conversation. I'm really excited about. So Tiff, welcome to the podcast. How are doing today?   The Dental A Team (00:19) I'm good. I'm excited because we haven't even, I don't even know what this, what you're thinking. So we're all learning this together, you guys.   The Dental A Team (00:25) you   It's true. This is the magic of Kiera and Tiff. We can truly pull each other in at any moment of any presentation and we pretty much can just pick up. And I think that's a beautiful thing when you have somebody that, I don't know, Tiff, it's just like, I was gonna say a funny joke, but I'm not gonna say that joke. We want someone who is so connected to you that just knows what you're going to do. It's truly pure magic. And we've literally had that since we met. So for those of you new to the podcast, welcome. Tiff and I are.   just two girls who love dentistry and wanted to change the world. And here we are. We really are passionate about life and business. We're passionate about dentists having their best lives, team members having their best lives. And that's really the core of what Dental A Team is about. So to get both of us, mean, literally I met Tiff when I was a rookie business owner. So the fact that we're still here together, we still love working together, I think is a pretty magical, incredible thing. And we would just always have said, we wanted to build a business that we are proud of, that we enjoy working in.   There have been times we have not enjoyed working here. I remember last year about this time I called you and we're both like, why is it so hard? Like I just remember it. And so there are ups and downs of a business, but in that vein, okay, Tiff, here's the preface. You ready? I'm going to tell you. So I was at the gym the other day and I absolutely hate with a passion sled pushes. Like I hate them. They are freaking hard. And Laura, my trainer, she like, I hate it. Like I don't have strong.   shoulders, my knees like hurt like that's why I go to the gym like I've got these like dumb problems and I was pushing the sled and like I'm shaking every ounce me wants to just give up it is so hard it's not that far but I really absolutely like loathe sled sled pushes and sled poles and Laura yelled at me she's like Kiera what are you working towards think about that while you push this and I was like I'm doing a podcast on this and Tiff I feel like you are the perfect person to podcast with me on   because that has set with me. And as I was pushing, I literally had the thought of I'm pushing to my 90, 100, 110 year old self that Tiff knows the vision. Cotton candy pink hair here, cotton candy blue hair on Tiff. We're going to be these like fit ripped grannies that are just living our best life, having so much fun. But I thought about that physically for my body. But I thought we do sled pushes and sled pulls in our business every single day. And to really start to think and dig deep of like   What are we working for? What is that purpose? And Tiff, know that this is right up your alley, which is why I didn't even have to prep you on it. Cause I'm like, let me just give a little preface and you're going to be all in. Cause one it's working out, which is your huge passion to its life. And three, we get to be on the podcast together. It's a triple win. You're welcome. So triple whammy. Here we go. So just thinking about that, I don't know. I want to just, have no agenda of where I want to take this podcast other than   The Dental A Team (03:01) I do love it.   Triple whammy.   The Dental A Team (03:15) It just made me really, I've been thinking about this. We're probably like four weeks since she said it to me, like literally it was a yell. So just imagine me and Tiff are your gym trainers here yelling at you, like, what are you working towards? What are you pushing this for? Why are you doing it? And I think sometimes that can get lost in people. And I think until we get that like yell wake up when it's like truly just like hard, I think sometimes we are asleep and hopefully today's podcast might wake you up and bring you to being present, being focused and being intentional. So Tiff.   It's okay, take it away.   The Dental A Team (03:45) Totally, I love working out, so thank you. Thank you for thinking of me and that reference. I don't do sled pulls because I don't like them, and I don't have a trainer telling me to do them, so I'm very proud of you for doing them. This is wild, I hate mountain climbers and knee ups. Those are my two worst enemies. So I'm with you on hating some sort of exercise at least. I'll do, I don't know, I'll do a burpee all day long for you, but ask me to do a knee up or a mountain climber, I'm out. But actually,   The Dental A Team (03:54) you   me too.   Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (04:14) This is, we're always like synchronistic. So it is fitting that this comes up. I actually like on a, think there's different scales that you could take this conversation. And I think there's the grand scale of like, why are we doing this? You and I come back to this constantly. And at about this time last year, we had really lost that vision and that drive. And so we did have to come back. I was actually thinking about that just the other day. was like, gosh, it was almost a year ago at this point, like by a couple of weeks, I think. Yeah. So yeah.   The Dental A Team (04:37) too. Crazy. Like literally.   The Dental A Team (04:42) Yeah, so I was thinking about it too, but this morning actually, I had a conversation with a client and it kind of, it's very pertinent to this subject and it kind of is interesting to me because we're thinking on a grand scale here and you're like, you're 80, 90, 100, 110 year old self is what you're envisioning and we go big a lot on like goals and visions and dreams and wishes for the, the.   clients for their practices, but something that I chatted about this morning was like as simple as something you're implementing. And the conversation was set around bonuses and bonus structures. And I was like, okay, you can do anything you want with a bonus. I don't care. I truly don't care what you decide. You need to be profitable at the bottom line, the end of the day. That's all I care about. My job is to make sure you're profitable. I don't care what your decision is. I have input on everything.   But the real question is, why are you doing a bonus? Because that will help answer the question of which style of bonus you want to do. And I think, Kiera, why are you exercising? Because that's going to help you decide what style of exercises are the best for that need. If you just woke up one day, people do this all the time.   They're like, I'm gonna exercise today. I'm gonna start today. And they're like, okay, there's, this is like, I think one of the main reasons people don't exercise, because you wake up and you're like, today's the day I'm gonna do it. And you're like, okay, there's 15,000 gyms to choose from, all ranging prices. I could get a trainer, but that's X amount of money. And I don't know that I need one or want one. I could do a CrossFit gym. I could do power lifting. I could do,   spin classes, I could do there's a million things. And so it's like, if you don't know the reason why you're doing the thing you're going to do, it's very difficult to pick what that looks like or to finalize or decide or clarify what that looks like down to the smallest decisions. And when people sit in indecision or I always say if something is really, really hard and I say this,   I always preface this with that doesn't mean life isn't hard. Life is hard, but when something is so hard that you're like, why isn't this working? I think of the toddler with that little game, right? And it's got the circle and the triangle and the square and the X. And this toddler has the square and the circle and they just sit there banging and banging and banging and banging and screaming in frustration because they know it's supposed to go inside the box. It's supposed to get inside the box, but they can't figure out.   The Dental A Team (07:10) Mm-hmm.   Thank you.   The Dental A Team (07:36) how it gets inside the box. And when we're sitting there like banging our heads against the wall, if you were doing all of these things in the gym, Kiera, felt this way about the sled and weren't seeing results, that's that space of like, I am doing everything I can possibly think of, why isn't this working? When you feel that way, I think my suspicion is that we've lost sight of why we're doing that thing.   The Dental A Team (07:38) Right.   Okay.   The Dental A Team (08:05) Right? Or that   thing isn't actually fitting the reason that we're here and we're doing the wrong thing. So we need to find that new path and that new thing circumventing what we're trying to do. We're trying to break through this wall, but sometimes it's like, no, actually that wall was supposed to be there. I was supposed to drive around. This is someone's yard. I can't just drive through their yard. Like this wall is supposed to be here. I'm actually supposed to drive around this wall, but my shortest path in my brain is through the wall. I hope that makes sense.   The Dental A Team (08:23) Right.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   It does make sense and it actually made me think about Simon Sinek's why   starts with the why, which is the purpose. And then you go into the how, which is the process. And then you go into the what, which is the result. And I think so many people, you said Tiff, they're starting with the result. It's like, I want to have a six pack. ⁓ Great. But like why? When you can go bigger and I can think of, like when I was pushing that said pole, I'm like, I'm so angry pushing this thing. And I'm like, yeah, but 90 year old, 110 year old Kiera, if I can be running, I can be walking, I can be lifting things and my bones aren't frail.   That's the purpose. Like that's the big purpose. This is why we're even doing. What is the cause? What do you believe? Like I believe that I'm going to be 110 year old fit woman who can do all these things. Then the how is the process. I go to the gym three times a week and the result is I have strong muscles and I have the six pack. That's, that's the after effect. That's not the starting. And with your practice, like when Tiff and I, talked about it, we lost the why.   That's why I think things were so hard. Like I feel like we were the toddler trying to shove the X into the circle and saying like, get in there. Like this needs to fit. Like it has to be this way. Like you said, we were running into someone's yard. Like there was a wall there and we couldn't see it. And when we scaled it back and it was like, this is the purpose of why we're doing what we do. Then the how is the process we do consulting this way. And then the result is your business grows. The profitability is there. You look at your numbers. And I think when I just, it really was just a highlight of   I think people today listening, I would just implore you and encourage you to ask the question of why am I doing this? And not like you can have it to make money. That's a result, but there's got to be something deeper and bigger and more than that. That's going to sustain you through that. Like true sled pull push, because I don't know, like businesses are not, you are not profitable forever. Like that's not something that's just like you get to profit and you stay at profit. Just like you don't get to fit and you stay at fit. You don't get to.   a certain result and you stay there. You have to maintain, have to be vigilant. You have to be on top of it. Just because like, I remember there was an epiphany one day, Tiff, Tiffanie epiphany. There you go. It's not quite efficiency, but I'm going to get there. ⁓ it was an epiphany where I literally was like, I get not half to work out. get to work out now, not to look good, but to be able to walk and not have pain. Like it was this moment. Cause I used to just work out. Like I need to like, look a little bit better in my swimsuit. So like, we'll just go to the gym for that.   Then I was like, no, this is just a way of life. This is a process. And I think when you realize that that's business, like being profitable, looking at the numbers, being the CEO, getting the team on board, doing great dentistry, that's all part of this. It's not the, do this just because it's like, that's part of all that you're doing. But when you have a greater why, I mean, even just the last couple of nights, me and Gwendolyn, which is my chat GPT have been hanging out tip. And it was crazy because even though I'm exhausted,   I'm lit up and fired up and excited because of what we're building and the purpose and all that. And that's what you want to get to. And to think Tiffanie, a year ago, you and I, remember I was on a walk. I remember exactly where I was. And I just remember hearing you and like, it was so like painful. You're like, why is this so hard? And I remember stopping, sitting on the ground, literally crying. And I was like, I don't know, Tiff, like, this is not what we built this for. This is not the life we want to be living. Like something radically has to change. And it was because I think our why was   just grow a bigger business. wasn't, let's change people's lives. Let's impact people. Let's look at what we're doing and how we can shift it. So I know that was a bit of a rant on my side. I just hope people are waking up and remembering like, what are you working towards? All this pain, all this hardship is part of it. But when that why is so vigilant and so pressing and so driving it, you're able to get through the sled pole as much as you don't enjoy it and get to the other side because you know there's a bigger purpose you're working towards.   The Dental A Team (12:21) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. And I think that we also have to remember that things shift and they change. The reasons that we do things change. So I have a couple of thoughts as you're speaking. First of all, you're having a difficult time ⁓ committing to a task or doing it all the time, or sometimes I forget, I'm like, shoot, I forgot. was gonna start going to the gym three times a week, like six weeks ago, and I haven't gone once, right? So if you forgot, it wasn't important, right? So my theory on that is either it's not the right thing.   So you chose the wrong thing to get you to the result you're after or your result you're after, your why, isn't strong enough. It doesn't hit fully yet, if that makes sense. So like Kiera, you said your reason for working out, right? When Brody was four, I think three, four years old, I was exhausted and I was tired and being a parent of a freaking three, four year old, like it was rough. was a single mom and it was...   The Dental A Team (13:04) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (13:20) I was just tired and I was like, you know what? Like, this is ridiculous. I do not want my kid to remember that mom couldn't hang. Like I couldn't play with him at the playground because I was tired easily or I couldn't, whatever it was, color with him because I'm like, no, like I just gotta rest, right? If I couldn't do the things with him because I wasn't taking care of myself, because I was pouring into him and tired, like that crazy cycle, that wasn't enough for me and that's when...   realistically when ⁓ workouts and training and stuff took precedence in my life. So my, my Y was easy. It's Brody. My Y for everything is Brody, but that shifts and it changes. Brody is Brody is my entire life, but he's going to college soon. And so now like I'm in that stage of that we all get to personally and professionally of, what is my Y now? So I think something that we get stuck on is   what we think, what we put into the universe, what we say has to be forever. And that it's like, no, this is why I started this business. Okay, but like, it's not the 90s anymore, right? Like I can't keep, I can't wear my clothes from high school, even though they're coming back around. If I wear those clothes from high school, which I don't have anymore, I would look ridiculous, right? So like stop trying to be the past version of yourself and understand   and give value to the fact that you have grown and your business has grown. So who you are and who your company is today is outgrowing, kind of like the crabs, you know? Like they outgrow their shells and they get to gift that shell to a new crab. A new crab walks along who's at that stage and they're like, this is my space. Let me take this giant home. This bigger crab that left that shell behind,   The Dental A Team (14:57) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (15:12) is now in a bigger shell. And if you're not willing to shed that shell, you're one, keeping other people from growing. You're still, that crab can't find that home if you haven't left it behind. And you're keeping yourself from growing. So to Kiera's point of like, you're not always gonna be profitable. There's gonna be, it's all cyclical. And if we're not open to the idea that our why has to change and it has to evolve to continue to be important to us, then   I don't know why you created one in the beginning.   The Dental A Team (15:44) I don't disagree with you. And on the profit thing, our goal at Dental A Team is to make sure our offices are always profitable. So we're just going to put that asterisk there. I think it can be. It's just not something where it's like a set it, forget it. You can just walk away from it. ⁓ And Div, I love that you said that because I think the permission right now to change, because me working out used to be to just look good. Like that was honestly what it was. It was like, I want to have this ripped body, like.   but not like so ripped, like just toned. I didn't like truly didn't have to work super hard at it. So was like, I go to the gym like as a social thing. That was it. That was, that was my why at that point. Now it's a like, no, like 90 year old Kiera needs this 40 year old Kiera needs this today. Like just who I am today. And also my mental sanity needs it today. And so allowing yourself to morph, to evolve, to grow. And I think when you look at your business and it was wild. ⁓   We had outgrown our why a little bit and our why needed to change and we needed to come back home. I think there's still always threads of what it was, but like you said, Tiff, life changes, circumstances changes. I think I got to a spot where I realized all the goals I had set for myself and for our company, we had pretty much hit. Like, so was kind of just this like rogue, like, all right, we've done this. And as a grower and a creator and a builder, I don't want to just do the same thing day in day out. That's not who I am. That's not what I was built to do. That's not what our company was built to do.   And so we had to, but like, couldn't keep doing that myself. I needed to get the team button. I needed the team to help build a bigger vision. We needed to collectively all decide where do want this to grow? And I needed to have something bigger than myself. ⁓ I think is where that shifted. And so really for you, no matter where you are in the phase of the journey, no matter if it's personal, professional, if you're a team member listening, if you're a doctor listening, whomever it is, if this is a team meeting, I think also for every team player to find out what our why is, what are we working towards?   Like pretend we're your gym trainers and we're yelling at you right now. Like, what are you working for? What are you doing all this for? Is it the same as what it has been? For Tiff, it's always been Brody. And I'm actually really excited, Tiff, to watch you morph into another version of yourself where Brody goes to college. And Tiff, like for me, it was like, cool. We were trying to have children. We were trying to do all these different things. Like that didn't happen. And so I remember sitting there and I'm like, what the heck?   I'm not doing any this anymore. Like I want to work this hard. I want to be this tired. I want to be this exhausted. There's nothing bigger that I'm working towards. And when we lose that, you lose the momentum. ⁓ or if it gets foggy or fuzzy or life changes or things don't happen the way you planned really just, think reassessing today, what are you working for? What is, and working personally, professionally team wise. And I also like for me, I get lit up now when I find out what team members are working. I love tip. love our one-on-ones. love hearing.   what Tiffanie's personal goals are. love hearing Britt. And I used to say that now it's like even more fun because we can take the business and manipulate it to create people's dream lives for them and also change Dennis lives too at the same time. And to me, that's even like more of a fun why that's bigger and more engaging and more exciting. But like you said, Tiff, it's crabs, it's shells, it's evolving, it's evolution of soul. And I think allow yourself to evolve, allow your team to evolve, allow your business to evolve, but whatever you're doing, just make sure   If you've lost that spunk and like inspire, find it again. Have it to be more like, again, a year ago I did not have this and then two nights, the last two nights, I'm so excited to run spreadsheets at numbers and figure it out. Like the puzzle, it's like scheming over here with me and I can't wait to come talk to Tip and I can't wait to do the projects that we're building. And I know Tip feels the same way. Like it's just fun and there's energy because we're, I think we're centered and focused on what we really want to do and committed to that and willing to allow ourselves to rewrite it.   consistently to make sure that we're always being inspired, always being challenged, always growing and progressing. So that's like my, that's my, are you working for? Spielstift. Any last thoughts you've got to add to this and thank you for popping in unannounced. I knew you'd be the perfect person. I knew there'd be nuggets that we could both pull to this. And I didn't want to do this alone because I also think not intentionally, but as I just said it, I actually think building a why and a vision of what you're working towards is so much more fun when you have people and a community and a team of people that are bought in.   that is so much more fulfilling. And I think for a long time, Tiff, you probably could have tested this. I think I tried to be a lone wolf trying to pull the team along and I had to shift and realize it's so much more fun to collectively have a group focus, a group process. Yes, I need to be, I need to have like at least some starting point to it, but it's so much more enjoyable when there's more people bought into it rather than just myself. So maybe that's also why I felt the want and need to have you on this today too. So any last thoughts, things you think of?   as we wrap up today.   The Dental A Team (20:22) Yeah, I think a couple things. One thing, what you just said is to like make that actionable for people is that you provide a template. Like we can create what we want this company to look like, right? But it's not our company. And so you provide a template for us so that we can work off of that. And then together we create the vision and the mission and all of those pieces. But they align with who you are because that's what this company is here for. It would be ridiculous for anyone else to be the one that   creates that because it's not our company. ⁓ So I think you provide the template, which is, know, every time you ask me for something, I'm like, well, you're going tell me what you want it to look like. we all need that, the clarity. You provide the template and the clarity.   The Dental A Team (20:57) Thank   Can we,   can we ask Rick on that real quick because you, so let's go back to when we met a year ago. I remember you saying, Kiera, we joined this company because of who you are and the vision you had. inspired us to join you. And that was something like, it's still like, gives me like tingles hits me to my core. I thought I was being selfish building a vision and a template. And when you said that you're like, you've lost yourself basically like in more polite words than that.   But you were like, you need to get yourself centered and get us excited because you driving this dream, this vision is why we collectively have come together. And if you're this floating bubble off on no man's land, waiting for us to co-create it because you want us to take ownership, that's what's going to lose our team. And Tiff, I don't know if you remember saying that directly to me. I remember exactly where we were. We were looking across the room at each other when you said it. And I'm just grateful that you have the, I think, courage to say that to your boss, to your friend.   I think a lot of team members don't realize that you can really help your leaders ⁓ get enlightened when there may be a little fuzzy. But Tiff, as soon as you said that to me, like, I'm not being selfish. This is what you guys need from me. This is why we're all here together. And if I can give that template, that guidance, everybody can rally around that. But that's got to be something that's core in me because I can't fake fire and the team will not come if there's not a spark. I like excitement that's got to be built within me.   The Dental A Team (22:28) Absolutely, and that goes hand in hand with what I was going to say. And so it was like literally perfect timing. you provide the template and something, there's a lot in there, but something that I wanted to pull out that goes exactly with what   just said. one, number one, before I even say that, I think there are words in our dictionary that have an imposed ⁓ emotion attached to them that's completely wrong.   The Dental A Team (22:54) you   The Dental A Team (22:54) Anything   can be good, anything can be bad. And I think that everyone, every person, every human, every animal has to have some sort of selfishness within their personality   order for us to survive. Like for you to not be selfish and be like, no, like you're just going to give away everything. Like that doesn't work. You had to be selfish and be like, no, why did I create my company? Like, yes, this is our company and we all share it with you.   But at the end of the day, it's your company. Why did you do it? And without that, we can't share it. And so something I was going to say is, and what you said, Kiera, was that the words that I said made you realize that you, or it sounded like I was saying, which I was, that you had lost yourself, right? And I don't shy away from those statements because it's incredibly important to me. If you lose yourself, like what are we even here for? And the whole concept of this   The Dental A Team (23:40) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (23:53) podcast today that why, right? If the why doesn't tie back to your personal life, why are you here? Like, what are you doing? It is not 1950s anymore where we are just like working to work and that's our lives. Like something shifted in the last, especially five years, but the last 10 years and we've really come to understand that work is to satisfy and project our personal lives so that we can be   The Dental A Team (24:00) I agree. I agree.   Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (24:20) the best we possibly can with the time that we have here on earth. So if your why cannot tie back to your business making your personal life incredible, or for me, I work so that I can have a fantastic personal life. I love you, Kiera, but I don't work. If you didn't pay me, I wouldn't be here. Right? Yes.   The Dental A Team (24:39) don't blame you. I don't blame you.   You're here for life.   The Dental A Team (24:41) I would still be friends with   you. I'll still podcast with you. But if I'm not able to support my family in the best ways that I know how by being a fantastic human by the time I get done with my work, by supporting us financially, and by providing my kid the vision of what work can be that I want him to have, what am I even doing? So if you can't, if your why isn't so important to you that it would break something inside of you personally, if you didn't hit that why,   then you haven't nailed your way.   The Dental A Team (25:12) I agree. And Tiff, I'm so glad you said that because I think there was a shift of working for the sake of working. And I, I like, this is a good, mean, I feel like I'm like unraveling like all of my layers right now. Like I'm all right. Okay. Let's like get really to the core of it. So thank you, Tiff, for pulling that out. Again, I knew I needed someone else on this, especially you. I knew I had to have the right person on this podcast to pull out what I really wanted to invoke in this podcast. I needed to one get   more beyond myself. Like you said, it has to be something where this is fulfillment for your life. And I had this aha moment where I'm like, hold on, this business was built to serve my life, not my life serving the business. And I think that that was a clutch moment for me to realize one coming back home to why we're doing this to building a template, three, figuring out like the business is serving our life, not the other way around. And then doing that for the team. ⁓ I think that there was not, think I know.   We're not going to sugarcoat. I was really tricky for a minute. If like it was, I remember you being like, I'm not working all the time. I was like, work already. And we realized we were going from this hourly checkmark to a results focus. And that was such a mindset shift. was a culture shift as a company. It did feel like we were taking off like an old costume and putting on the new current. Um, but that's, think what human beings were here. We are human beings. We're not human doers.   The Dental A Team (26:19) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (26:37) And I think, like you said, it's got to be serving that. And I think for me as a business owner, as a CEO, as a friend, as a human, to realize that the business can do both, it doesn't have to be one or the other, I think is like probably the magic space right now. So when I'm like, what am I working for? I'm working to like change Dennis lives, of course, to make this huge positive impact. I'm also working to make sure that team that works for me has these incredible lives as well. Tiff, also said to me, like, Kiera, we want your life. And I was like, wow.   That's such like a comment that I'm so grateful for. And I was like, great, how can we create that? Like, how can we build? Like, what are the things that I have that you want that we can then build? Like those now are just conversations and creative playgrounds. And that's, think the magic of business is business is able to fulfill wise, fulfill magic, fulfill dreams and make them realities. And to me, that is the magic of being a business owner. So I think again, what is that? Why? And like you said, Tiff, like   I hope people can even hear like I get giddy and excited. I'm like, all right, let's go make some dreams come true. Like for dentists, for team members, for myself, like for all of us, how can we do that? That's what lights me up. And your why will be your own. But like you said, Tiff, if you don't have that solid, that sled pole is going to hurt. That sled push is going to kill. And you're going to just give up because you don't have that fire inside that truly is meant to drive you forward.   The Dental A Team (27:56) Yeah, I agree. I have to give kudos and a statement to a doctor that I, he is so near and dear to my heart. I worked for him for a really long time and I watched him, one, I watched him work himself to death. Like I watched him work himself to where I'm like, are you even here today? Like you are so, you're not here. You are so dead.   right now, but I also watched him reinvent himself. I watched him reinvent us, reinvent our company. I watched him lose himself. I lost myself, but at the core of everything, I know, Kiera, you ask me often how I'm so forward in my communication or that I make you have these conversations and...   I learned so much from him. He was willing to be vulnerable with me ⁓ and have those conversations with me. He treated me as if I was a human on his team that he wanted there for a really long time. And he would pull me in for those hard conversations when he had to have them with me. I'm gonna get emotional. And it changed my perspective of people, communication, and business.   The Dental A Team (29:01) you   The Dental A Team (29:11) And he's still going, he's still got his business and I'm sure he's still turbulent as ever. We'll use that word. But kudos to him for taking, I was 19 when I started working for him and he just, took this girl and he just poured into her so that I could get to where I am. And so I think my point of that is doctors, owners, business owners,   Be open to that. Don't be so shut down and scared to be seen as vulnerable or small or weak that your team can't reach you. He was always reachable. Even when he was angry, he'd be like, give me a second. I'm gonna shut my door. I'd hear him yell sometimes and I'm like, bro, get it together. But he was that.   The Dental A Team (29:56) you   You   The Dental A Team (30:05) vulnerable with us, that it allowed us to have the clarity and it allowed me then, Kiera, to be able to have those conversations with you, to not be afraid just because you're my boss and the company owner. Like if I see something that could potentially damage the company, damage you as a human or damage us or damage my goals, I'm going to speak up and say something because it's for the good of everyone and he taught me that. So massive kudos to him and   The Dental A Team (30:26) Right.   you   The Dental A Team (30:33) It was a wild ride. will never,   never not admit that, but I, there's a lot of good that came out of it. And I truly believe that my communication with business owners comes from him being vulnerable. So doctors just don't forget that. Like you're not weak. You're actually stronger by allowing your team to help support you.   The Dental A Team (30:54) And I am grateful for your doctor too. ⁓ I'm grateful for the person that he helped you develop into. And I definitely believe that people are here on both sides. I think as business owners, we have to feel like we're here to provide all these things. But I think the flip is also true that if we allow ourselves to see that our team is also here to provide for us too.   I think it's like parents with children and they say they learn so much from their children when it's feels oftentimes the reverse that you're here to support them, but they're here truly building and supporting you. So tip, I love that. And I really hope doctors heard that. And I also hope team members heard that of speak up. like you said, Tiff, our team helps me clear the fog. Like when they call me out, they tell me all the time, like, Hey, when you like shift your hair like that, we know you're stressed out when care, Tiff, even say, you're like, here's got those eyes up. She's got to move and she does not have time for this.   Those are good pieces. They're like silly, but they helped me clear the fog. They helped me see more clearly. ⁓ and I think that there's very few people that are willing to have those conversations. So when you're willing to have, and you have team members like that, cherish them, love them, pour into them. And if you don't have people that are quite there yet, pour into them too, because you never know. Like, again, it's a, it's a give take relationship. And I think when we see it, when you stop being the hero of your business as a business owner and you allow the entire team to be the hero, you're a guide.   it's a give take. It's a, it's we're equal ground. We're here to serve. We're here to be that I think is where magic is. And that to me, like just saying that that's a big part of the why of like what I'm freaking working for. ⁓ for myself and for our other people, it's free. It's here for life. So I hope, don't know, Tiff, that was just a beautiful podcast and this is going to be one I hope people listen to over and over again. And just remember like, you can get lost. You need team members. ⁓ but   Like you said, Tiffanie kept pointing to our hearts. Like I think let's go back to our little like summit, like drawing our human beings over here. Like I think the why comes from your soul. I think it comes from your heart. I think it's there. It's innate within you. And sometimes you just need to come back home to you to find it again and to have people around you and to support you on that journey. I mean, my team saw me go through some hard times and it feels so like, I don't know. It's like.   The Dental A Team (32:49) you   The Dental A Team (33:09) I'm not even a mask and it feels like de-masculating and I'm not even a man. Like I feel like I just lost like everything that was like, like the almost like the armor, the, the false like safety net. I think it's also like failing and admitting that you don't know everything. You feel like a failure. I think those are all the things. ⁓ but like you said, Tiff, I think that there is actually so much strength because we don't make it worse than it is and we don't make it better than it is. We make it what it actually is. So we can actually build from there and create what's meant to be.   The Dental A Team (33:37) Yep, I totally agree.   The Dental A Team (33:39) Okay, with that, I hope you guys just take something from here. I don't think I've got a strong action item. think we usually hear for tactical. think it's more than anything. Like I guess the tactical is check your why, check to see why you're doing all this. What are you working for? What is that? Be open with your team, be vulnerable, set the vision, have the template, ⁓ do it with your team, get people around you that are bought into your vision that are with you, that are rowing with you. Team members don't forget the power that you play in this. And if we can help you, this is what I think.   This to me is the core of Dental A Team. This conversation is what Tiff and I wanted this company to be. It's helping humans be humans. It's helping you realize that you don't have to be a robot. It's helping you have freedom to live life. ⁓ We say it's like life is our passion. Dentistry is our platform. And so I think it's pretty special to be able to share that with you in a space of dentistry that brings us all together. So Tiff, thanks for being in my life. Thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks for the thoughts today. This one really was just ⁓ a super special podcast that I'm grateful we were able to do together.   The Dental A Team (34:37) Me too, thanks for messaging and it was perfect timing.   The Dental A Team (34:40) Of course and for all of you listening reach out if we can help you in any way Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and remember you're worth it your why is worth it your your purpose in this life has meaning and we need you you're super special exactly how you are and Do not lose that because people depend on you people need you to have that vision So reach out if we can help you and as always thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team podcast  

Nick brings you the third day of Magic Millions from Australia's Gold Coast. First today, a fascinating insight into valuing a yearling with MM owner Gerry Harvey and his two key lieutenants Paul Thompson and Luke McDonald. Also on the grounds today, agents Jamie Piggott and Mark McStay,. veteran trainer Clarry Conners, and AgriBusiness exec Caitlin Smith. Meanwhile John Warren explains why he spends January in Australia as he celebrates a strong result in the ring with a son of Anamoe. Lee Mottershead joins with all the rest of the day's news.

As agency owners settle into 2026, it’s easy to operate on autopilot—chasing the next tactic without reconnecting with what made the business work in the first place. In this episode, Chip and Gini make the case for looking backward before charging forward. Chip admits his first agency started because “consultant” sounded better than “unemployed.” But the real question isn’t just why you started—it’s why you decided to keep building. That motivation should be informing your strategy today. Gini shares how she once believed she wanted a large agency with hundreds of employees and global clients. When she hit 30+ people, she realized she’d built something she didn’t enjoy leading. She was buried in HR issues instead of doing the work that energized her. The Great Recession forced a reset, and she restructured the business around her strengths. Her advice: figure out what brings you joy in the business, and protect time to do more of it. Otherwise, you risk drifting into micromanagement or burnout. The episode also digs into practical growth tactics from the early days that still work. Gini recalls how she built her pipeline by developing relationships with business development leads at large agencies. When prospects came in below their fee threshold, they’d refer the work her way—a principle that remains just as relevant today. Both hosts encourage owners to revisit their “things I’d never do” list from when they started. It’s worth checking whether you’ve quietly drifted into those same patterns over time. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Agency owners often ask me, what should I do next? And the answer is very different depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with the business.” Gini Dietrich: “We say this to clients all the time, go back to the basics. It works. And it works for your agency, too.” Chip Griffin: “You need to do what’s right for you. And so, I think that the key to that is really going back to your roots, understanding what motivated you to get started, what drove that success in the early days.” Gini Dietrich: “You want to focus on the things that you are great at, and the things that make you the happiest, and the things that are most motivating to you, because that’s how your business will grow.” Turn Ideas Into Action Write down why you started your agency and what drove your early success. Block 30 minutes to identify patterns from those early days that you could leverage again for growth or business development today. Identify one thing that energizes you most about the work—then carve out time to do more of it. Even if it’s behind the scenes (like strategic brainstorming or quarterly client reviews), injecting that spark back into your role helps prevent burnout. Make a quick list of “things I swore I’d never do” when you started. Check whether you’ve drifted into any of those patterns on inertia—and decide if it’s a learned lesson or a habit worth breaking. Related Do you remember why you started your agency? Why one-size-fits-all advice doesn't work for agencies View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I am Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m thinking way, way back, way back decades now to why I started my agency. Gini Dietrich: Oooh. Decades, huh? Chip Griffin: And I can’t remember ’cause I’m too old now, so. No, Gini Dietrich: you can too remember. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, the honest answer is that I started my first agency was because I was unemployed. And it was better to describe myself as a consultant than unemployed. Yeah. Sure. And then than accidentally started accumulating business. Yeah. But I, but I do think it, it is a helpful exercise for us to go back and, and think about why we started the businesses or, or maybe not, in some cases, like mine, because I was unemployed, is not the greatest explanation. So you know more why did I decide to, to, to build it into an actual business. Gini Dietrich: Why? To keep going. Yeah. I think that’s good, especially as we’re, we’re thinking about starting out the new year and remind ourselves, you know, of the reasons that we started this. Some of us do it because we’re, we’re unemployed. Some of us did it because we found a better, we, we think we had a better way of doing things. Some of us did it because we have a problem with authority. Some of us did it ’cause we’d make terrible employees. I mean, there are lots of different reasons, but I think reaching back into our archives in our brains and thinking about why we did it or why we, I think that you’re right, why we continue to do it is a, is a really good exercise. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I, and, and I’ve said over and over again over the years that, that I think too many agencies operate on inertia, as opposed to any kind of a, a fundamental strategy. And so, you know, it’s very easy to say as, as I’m sure many people ask you as they do me, well, what’s the, what’s my next step? Here’s where my agency is now, what, what should I do next? And the answer is very different depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with the business. So trying to think back to those early days and what motivated you to start the business. Evaluate it because it, that may have changed, right? You, you may have started it because it served a particular need in the moment, and maybe it’s different today, but thinking about that and thinking about what you really want from the business is usually a better way to come up with strategic decisions than it is to say, well, what do other agencies like mine do when they get to this stage of growth or to this challenge? It’s, you really need to to match it up because otherwise, what’s the point of taking on all of that risk and stress of being a business owner? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, a really good example of that is I really thought I wanted to build a great big agency with hundreds of employees and, and clients around the globe and all of the, all of the things. And as I started to grow and we got to about 30 ish, 33, 32 people, I realized that’s not what I wanna do. Right. It was not enjoyable. I had built a company that I was not thriving in, that I didn’t enjoy leading. You know, I was dealing mostly with HR issues and not doing the work. And so the, the Great Recession did afford me the opportunity, unfortunately and fortunately to kind of take a step back and, and think about what kind of business do I want to have? And what kind of business do I want to lead? And while we’re back up to that same size, it’s a different structured business that allows me to focus in on the things that I do best and do the things that I enjoy versus HR ’cause that is not something I enjoy at all. Chip Griffin: I, I think I’ve yet to meet an owner who likes, enjoys doing HR or accounting or those sorts of things. Not fun. There are some who do it well. But don’t enjoy it. But I, I don’t think I’ve found any that actually enjoy doing it. So, but, but I think that, you know, as you think back to those early days and you think about what motivated you, it can often help you to figure out, you know, what is, what is that spark that you need in the business for you to either continue enjoying it for a longer period of time or bring back some of that, that joy that you had in those early days. Because I know a lot of agency owners these days are, are frustrated and, you know, trying to figure out how to change things for the better. And I think part of the way you inform yourself of that is by thinking back to those early motivations and figuring out how you can inject more of that into your business today. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s really important to do that. And I think there, you know, for me personally, I get really passionate and enjoy my job when I’m learning and doing new things. So artificial intelligence, of course, has been a great big thing for me because I’ve really enjoyed learning it and understanding it and implementing it into my business and then taking it to clients. You know, last month we launched the PESO operating system, AI edition, where the AI prompts you instead of you prompting it. So it will say, what are your business objectives? What are you trying to achieve? What are your audiences? What are your messaging? And then it builds a PESO program for you that’s fully integrated versus you saying I need you to act like a marketing director who can, who understands PESO and can build this and this. It’s that. So I like, those are the kinds of things that really get me excited. And building those kinds of things gets me excited and motivated. So it’s, it’s easy because I understand that about myself. It drives my team crazy ’cause they’re like, oh, she’s got something new. Or my, their favorite thing is, I had an idea. And they’re like, oh no, no, not again. But that’s what keeps me, yeah, that’s what keeps me motivated. So finding a way to understand what brings you joy in the business, I think is incredibly important. So that without exhausting your team, of course, but doing it in a way that keeps you motivated and, and not burned out. Chip Griffin: Yeah. One of the things that always used to, to drive my teams nuts was I would say, you know, over the weekend I was playing with this new thing. And, and you could just see the looks on their faces and they’re like, oh, this is a lot more work for me now. Gini Dietrich: This is gonna be fun. Yep. Chip Griffin: This is, yep. Yep. They, they never seemed to appreciate it the way that I had hoped they would when I came to them. Correct. With these, these brilliant brainstorms of mine. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: I, and I think as, as you know, founders of agencies, most of us come in with some sort of that. Idea that, that we want to be creative or strategic or those kinds of things. And as we end up in more of a management role, we have less and less opportunities to do it. So I, I think that, that rather than giving up on that dream, we need to figure out how we can sprinkle enough of that in there to keep ourselves motivated. We can’t give up the, the management piece. We can’t give up the business development piece. Many of us would like to. But the, the reality is that, unless you’ve built a fairly large agency, you just don’t have the ability to pull yourself out of that, as a solo owner. But it doesn’t mean that you have to give up on those things entirely. You can carve out a piece of time to work on that, and if you are structuring your role in such a way that you’re enjoying what you’re doing, it also means that you’re frankly less likely to be doing the, the, the bad things that founders of businesses can do, which is micromanagement and tinkering with things that you don’t really belong in because you, because you’re not occupying yourself with the things that really motivate you. And instead, you’re continuing to try to do every aspect of the business. And that’s where you start to, to run into team morale problems quite often. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I think one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned over the years is that, yes, I can do the work, and yes, I can probably do it pretty well, but is it really something that I should be focused on? And if not, is it something that I can pay an expert to do because in the long run, it’ll cost me less money, less time, less resources, all of the things. And I know as small agency owners, it’s really hard to say, gosh, I’m gonna have to spend $2000 or $3,000 a month on an expert. When in fact it might save you, you know, 15 or 20 grand on the backend. So I think you have to think about these things as investments in your business and investments in your time so that you can focus on the things that, that you are great at and the things that make you the happiest and the things that are most motivating to you, because that’s how your business will grow. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And if, if that happens to be being creative and strategic, then, then you can, you shouldn’t be doing it day to day in all likelihood for clients. Sure. But you should find ways to do it either as part of, you know, quarterly or annual client reviews. Or internal brainstorming sessions that you’re engaging in. There’s a lot of things you can do behind the scenes to be useful and, and to, to exercise those muscles in a way that that gives you satisfaction. But doesn’t put you on the front lines so that you’re, you know, now the, the one that the, the client decides they’re gonna call every time they’ve got an issue. Because that, that ends up eating up a lot of your time in a way that probably you’re not going to enjoy. So sometimes it’s doing things behind the scenes that gets you the, the most value, or doing annual in person with the client. But they understand it’s special that you’re here, this is not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is not something they can or should expect every week. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I, I know I’ve talked about this before on the podcast, but we do quarterly planning with our clients. We do a quarterly look back, and then we, you know, say, okay, based on metrics and data and all that and your priorities, here’s what we’re suggesting for quarter two or in the next quarter. And that has afforded many opportunities. A, for me to, to work in my where I’m, where I’m strong, but it also almost always gets us more money. So when you’re, when agency owners are like, oh, should I do a cost of living raise every year? Should I increase by 10 or 15% every year? That kind of goes away because you are getting new projects every quarter based on the the plan and the strategic strategy and creativity that you’re providing to the clients every quarter, because they’re like, oh gosh, yeah, we should actually do that. And some, and sometimes they’ll say, we don’t have extra budget. Can we move some things around? Which is okay, but most of the time they’ll say, you know, we, we have a little extra budget. Let’s focus on doing that. We have to launch a new website. Here’s some extra budget for that. We have to do a series of webinars to maintain our CEUs. Let’s here’s a little extra budget for that. So there are things and opportunities for you to, for lack of a better term, term upsell when you’re doing these quarterly meetings versus waiting for the annual. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and so, you know, finding a way to, to inject yourself in those things is a valuable exercise. Absolutely. From that, look back to the early days. But the other thing that that can be helpful in looking back to your early days of your agency is, you know, what helps drive your early success? Because a lot of times when we’re trying to find solutions to our current growth issues, we can find clues in some of those early days and mm-hmm. A lot of that, you know, in the early days of, of most agencies, it may be that low hanging fruit from personal networks and things like that. But there are usually other patterns that you might be able to see there that might help you to understand what are, what are the basics that you need to go back to? How do you, how do you employ some of those rather than, than focusing on, you know, all of the fancy new things that you see, you know, some, you know, genius podcast hosts talking about as far as how to grow an agency and instead say, Hey, this is what worked for me. Yep. Because you may find something that works again today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we say this to clients all the time, but going back to the basics. It works. And it works for you too, so absolutely you should think about those kinds of things. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, you didn’t get here by accident. Well, maybe you got, maybe it’s a little bit of an accident sometimes that happens. Maybe, yeah. Some of it. But, if you’ve had any longevity at all, even a few years of longevity as an agency owner, there are patterns that you can find usually that started in those early days. That you can lean into for understanding and rather than trying to do something wild and different, focus on the things that you know, you’ve proved can work for your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. One of the things, if I were to dig back into the archives, one of the things that worked extremely well for us is I had developed relationships with people who did business development at the large agencies, and what I found is that if they had an RFP or a current client or a prospect come in and say, we only have a quarter of a million dollars to spend. They’re not even gonna look at that. And so they started just referring that business to us, which is how I grew the business. Mm-hmm. So if I think about that now, how could we replicate that kind of, you know, pipeline development? It was extremely effective. And I, I gift that to all the listeners too. Like there are larger agencies in all of your cities that they have a certain threshold, and if any something comes in below that, they are happy to refer business. So there is, there is one way for you to start thinking about how am I going to, you know, keep myself motivated? How am I gonna keep my pipeline full? How am I gonna keep cash coming in? That’s one of the things that you can think about. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and thinking those things through. I mean, sometimes it’s not a one for one where you did exactly the same way you did it originally, but you take that nugget of an idea. And you know, things like, finding other people who can refer you business that’s not quite a fit for, for them, but might be for you. It’s a good reminder to be out there and having conversations with your peers. With people even that you might perceive sometimes as competitors, because there are often opportunities. In the work that I do with agencies, it’s not uncommon for some of the other consultants in the space to refer clients to me that are a better fit for my background and the kinds of agencies that I work with and vice versa. Because you know, we all have our specialties. And as an agency you have your specialties, so it is very common for many agencies to have grown this way. So certainly something to be looking at today, particularly if you’re struggling to find that new business in 2026. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think I really love the advice of thinking back to how you got to where you are and some of the things that you did, and going back to basics a little bit, because those are the things that are going to continue to work. And to your point, maybe tweak a little bit to make a more, be more effective in ’26. Chip Griffin: I mean, it also puts you in the right mindset, I think, because if you’re thinking back to those early stages, that tends to be when many agencies have the most growth, when things are most exciting. And so if you can try to bring back even a sprinkling of that, that can be really helpful. Particularly when times are tougher, or you’re looking for the inspiration to take things to the next level or whatever challenge you may be facing today, those lessons can be extremely valuable and also motivating at the same time. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. I used to, I used to get mad at companies that would hire big PR firms for like brand awareness and, you know, sending news releases and they didn’t get any coverage. They didn’t get any results. And I would get, I would get angry and I would call the company and be like, you’re so stupid. I would never do that today. But I had such a, I was just so naive and passionate about what we were doing, that it didn’t bother me to call and be like, we can do this significantly better for you. And in some cases they laughed and hung up on me. And in some cases, like we became agency of record. Like we took AOR away from Fleischman Hillard one year from a big, big company with a big, big company. And it was because I made a phone call where I was like, I can’t believe that you’re spending this kind of money and getting these kinds, these lackluster results. They were like, all right, let’s listen. I don’t think I would do that today, but it worked. Chip Griffin: Right. But, thinking back to those things can help you do two things. One is to think some of the positive things that you can do or the affirmative steps, right. That you can take. But the, but sometimes looking back to, to how you got started can also be reminders not to do certain things. Gini Dietrich: Sure, sure. Chip Griffin: So, particularly if you’ve started an agency and maybe you worked at an agency previously when you started, you probably had this laundry list of things. I would never do these things as an agency. And I, I think back to my first agency and some of the agencies that I had worked with previously, you know, did a lot of what I felt was nickel and diming of you in terms of back in the day charging you for faxes and photocopies. Sure. Yes. And all sorts of little expenses. And so, you know, I was committed back then to making sure that my invoices were always clean and simple and fixed, and I just worked in the cost of all of these things. Into my total cost of doing business so that I never had to aggravate a client. Fast forward to today. If I found myself doing that, I, by looking back, I would say, wait a minute. Let me think about that. Am I, am I being true to what my vision was of the business? And if not, is that because I’ve actually learned something and it does make sense to do what I thought was wrong back then. Because I mean, you can learn and grow. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sure. Or have you just fallen into the trap because you walked around and you saw other people doing it. So you said, well, I’m gonna start charging for faxes too. And if you’re charging for faxes in 2026, by the way, Gini Dietrich: we have a problem, but Chip Griffin: we have a huge problem because, what the heck are you using that fax machine for? Let alone that you’re charging for it. And by the way, where did you find a fax machine? Because I haven’t seen a fax machine in person in a really long time, except maybe like at the back of a doctor’s office. The, you know, Gini Dietrich: the bank and the doctor’s office. Yeah, I think that’s it. Chip Griffin: Well, I haven’t, I don’t, I kind, I haven’t been inside a bank in a long time, but Gini Dietrich: yeah, Chip Griffin: everything’s, everything’s electronic now. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. There’s no need for that. Chip Griffin: But yeah, think, think back to those, those motivations that you may have had that rather than I want to do this, it was, I never want to be the kind of agency that does this. Because it, it is really so easy to fall down those rabbit holes over time without even realizing that you’re just, you’re doing the same things that, that you didn’t ever want to see when you started your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think it’s so easy to sit on social media, and you’ll get served ads from experts who say this is the way that you should do things. And in some cases it might work. And in some cases you might be like, there’s no way. And I think it’s really easy to listen to somebody and say, yeah, but we went from $3 million in debt to making $3 million a day, like, you know, these wild claims. And then you kind of get sucked into that. I think if you’re really true to who you are and what kind of agency you want to build, that’s going to enable you to say, this just doesn’t feel right to me. I’m not, I’m just gonna… great if he’s really making $3 million a day, I need to just bypass this one. Chip Griffin: Because you need to do what’s right for you. And so, I think that the key to that is, is really going back to your roots, understanding what motivated you to get started, what drove that success in the early days. And by understanding the, the early months or years of your agency, the more that you can inform some of the decisions that you’re making going forward one way or the other. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Think about it. It’s a good way to start ’26. Chip Griffin: Nice positive way. We, we managed to get through an episode here without beating up on our listeners. We didn’t start the year on a negative note, did we? We started positive. We did. Think about, we think about what has worked for you previously. Yes. And do more of that. Do more. So we will do more of this on a future episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. But in the meantime, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

“Stop and think, why am I having this reaction? And observe instead of being in it.” In this episode, Nick speaks with Lybi Ma about the importance of embracing all emotions, including those that are often deemed negative. They emphasize the need to sit with and process feelings rather than suppressing them, highlighting that experiencing emotions is a natural part of life. What to listen for: It’s important to feel all emotions, not just the positive ones. Emotional acceptance is crucial for mental well-being. Processing emotions can be a daily practice. You don’t have to dwell on feelings forever; it’s about acknowledgment. Sharing feelings with others can foster a deeper connection and greater understanding. “We spend a lot of time negating half of our emotions. We want to feel happy and not depressed or not anxious, or we don’t want to feel anger. Feel these things.” Avoiding “negative” emotions actually gives them more power over us Emotions like anger, sadness, and anxiety are signals, not flaws Trying to feel only happy creates emotional suppression, not healing Feeling emotions fully helps them move through instead of getting stuck Emotional wholeness comes from allowing all feelings, not just the pleasant ones “People stop breathing when they’re tense and in the moment of being reactive to an unhappy situation. And when you stop breathing, cortisol goes up, and you become alert, and you’re looking for the predator. Just breathe and let your body work it out.” Tension often causes shallow or stopped breathing without us realizing it Holding the breath signals danger, triggering a cortisol stress response The body goes into survival mode, scanning for threats that may not exist Slow, intentional breathing helps calm the nervous system naturally Sometimes regulation isn't mental—it's physical: breathe and let the body reset About Lybi Ma Lybi is the executive editor of Psychology Today. In addition to producing the print magazine, she also edits its website and blog platform, which hosts more than nine hundred authors, academic researchers, and journalists. She edited a Psychology Today book series covering topics such as anger, food addiction, and bipolar disorder. She has a blended family of five adult children and lives with her husband in Westchester, New York. Her newest book, HOW TO BE LESS MISERABLE, is available now from Blackstone Publishing. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/contributors/lybi-ma https://www.linkedin.com/in/lybi-ma-b982941/ https://www.blackstonepublishing.com/products/book-hb9q?variant=46150345883786 Resources: Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:00.971)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Libby, how you doing today? Lybi Ma (00:10.338)Good. Thank you for having me. Nick McGowan (00:13.233)Absolutely, I’m excited that you’re here. I told you, I thought you were gonna be really academic and I think you’re gonna be able to tie that in with being an actual human. And I’m excited with all this. So why don’t you get us started? Yes, thank you. Thank you for breathing air with the rest of us. Why don’t you get this started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre? Lybi Ma (00:25.121)breathing. Lybi Ma (00:38.39)I am the executive editor at Psychology Today, and I’ve been there for quite a few decades. Not gonna tell you completely because I don’t want you to know my age. And something that, well, the thing about me is that we take my ex-husband on vacation with us. There you go. Nick McGowan (01:06.644)So I appreciate that you basically just hold the mic there, like about to drop it and like, what do you want to do with this? I feel like there are people that would be like, and here’s some context to it. So I’ve got to ask what, what do you mean? How does that work? Does he physically go with you or is he like in a box? Okay. Lybi Ma (01:22.222)Yeah, he’s, he comes with us. He shows up. We had three weddings in 13 months between my second husband and me. And they’re grown kids. And he came to my stepkids’ weddings and they call him Uncle Carl. Nick McGowan (01:44.628)Cool. That’s really awesome. That is an odd thing that I, unfortunately that I think most people don’t experience. Yeah. Well, this is, this is a good thing to start on too. Cause I’ve actually had this conversation with somebody recently where they’re like, yeah, I’ve got a young kid and the mom and I don’t really, we don’t work, but we work really well together for the kid. Lybi Ma (01:54.211)I gave you one, didn’t I? I gave you one. Nick McGowan (02:10.919)And that was really important. Like I could see him almost like put his foot in the ground. Like this is what we’re doing specifically for a child. That’s not how I grew up. Like my mom and dad, they’re still basically like a town or two apart from each other. They’ll see each other at a bar somewhere and like snarl at each other. Like I am 41 years old, calm down. It’s been a long ass time. However, my dad and his ex-wife are great friends because of the relationship that they had and all that. My dad actually… Lybi Ma (02:29.613)Okay. Nick McGowan (02:40.827)met her husband, shook his hand with a hundred dollar bill and said, thank you. It’s your turn. I’m like, the kahones on that man for that. But that’s an interesting thing that you can actually have that. Now I would imagine, look, you work for psychology today. You’ve probably done a lot of work on yourself and through your relationships and healed through things. But can you give us a little bit of context of like how the heck that works? Lybi Ma (02:48.59)I like that. That’s funny. Lybi Ma (03:07.8)So in the beginning when I first got divorced, I thought, I’m never speaking to this person again. And that lasted for a little while. And I actually worked through his second wife. I needed her to pick up the kids. So as you know, we had a very friendly situation. And I thought, well, this is not really good for the kids. So I think I better. start being more amenable to the whole thing. And I got this job and it helped me. This job, I read a lot of information. Constance Ahrens did research. She did a good book on divorced kids. And basically divorced kids can do well if The parents get along and there’s no conflict in their household. And as long as each parent has a good relationship with the child, they’re probably going to do well. And I will have to say that my children did very well. So yeah, it worked out. And yeah, and it also helps when you have a person like my ex-husband who is very amiable. He wants to be friendly and he has a crazy romance with my husband, a bromance, sorry, not romance, a bromance. They have a thing going on. So there you go. Nick McGowan (04:28.454)awesome. Nick McGowan (04:48.86)Ha Nick McGowan (04:54.473)Which you probably didn’t think like we’re getting a divorce at some point I’ll be married again and he’ll be great friends with my then husband. Like could you have written that you know? Lybi Ma (05:01.13)No, no, I had no idea. No idea. No. Getting along is better. Yeah. Nick McGowan (05:06.097)Yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah. But I, I find it interesting how sometimes we, people can say, there was this period of time and then a period of lapse. And then I realized this thing and then another period and here we are. There was a lot of time in between then and this conversation right now. And even the times where I’m sure you were super frustrated, upset, pissed the whole nine and then maybe I could do things different. And I think sometimes we blow past that because Lybi Ma (05:33.25)Yeah. Nick McGowan (05:39.312)Maybe context isn’t always important in all the situations. However, I want to say it’s pretty much always super important. And that’s really what the purpose of the show is to be able to kind of talk about those tough times. Like you went through a divorce, but you saw it as I’m going to help with the kids. And this is more important for my kids. And now you’re seeing your kids in action from the result of what you guys have done. It’s really hard for people to see the stuff that they need to work on and be open to that, especially when they’re in a really, really difficult time going through it. or post divorce or something like that. Now, how does that tie into the work that you’ve done and worked with for maybe just a couple decades? Don’t need to know your age. But being able to actually go through that stuff on your own and then literally work with psychology today and the psychologists and other people doing important work and you being a researcher yourself. Lybi Ma (06:33.026)Well, I’ll be honest with you. First of all, I’m not a researcher. take the researcher’s information and try to put it in accessible language so that people can relate. So you see all this information coming through and everything makes a whole lot of sense. Nick McGowan (06:53.02)sense. Lybi Ma (07:02.38)And I started to apply it to my own life. And it was very helpful. I became a wiser person because I work at this magazine. Yeah. Nick McGowan (07:15.751)Sure. Were there things that you can kind of look back to? Like kind of hovering around the same topic here, because I know it’s important, divorce kids and families and all that, but for you to be able to look back to and say, you know, if I wasn’t in the job that I am in, I probably would have been in different spot because you learn certain things because of the information you were seeing coming to you. And then just putting it into action. Like, is there anything that really stands out to you? Like, if I didn’t learn this. Lybi Ma (07:23.95)huh. Nick McGowan (07:45.233)I didn’t learn it this way, it would have all been different. Lybi Ma (07:48.259)Well, I think that when I was younger and the kids were little, I was newly divorced. I fought with life quite a bit. And I think that is a main message in my book is fighting with life, it just doesn’t work. We have to plug on and not fight with it. I turn to, also turn to, you know, spiritual thought a little bit like Buddhism. Buddhists accept things. This is how it is. So let’s just take this. You can’t change it. So let’s just try to make it work. Work with what you have. So that’s what I did. I worked with what I had. So I take a little bit of psychology and I mix it. My family. Nick McGowan (08:56.134)Little bit of this, little bit of that. Lybi Ma (08:57.198)Yeah, right. My family comes from the Tibetan, Ching Hai Plateau. And it is, Ching Hai is next door to Tibet. And actually, my grandfather was a trader, he had a donkey, and he put all his tea and shoelaces and whatever, know, spices on his Nick McGowan (09:26.704)Yeah. Lybi Ma (09:27.032)donkey and then he would go back and forth from Tibet to Qinghai. And they are, and these people in that area, there’s Tibetan Buddhists and they’re also Hui. The Hui are Chinese Muslims, which my family are Chinese Muslims. They come from that area and they’re very similar. They have a very similar sort of way of thinking. and acceptance is a big part of it. And that didn’t work out. So we better turn over here and see if this is gonna work out. That’s the way it is. Nick McGowan (10:09.637)You yeah. So let’s, let’s talk about that for a bit. Cause that does tie into even just being miserable or not miserable, let alone less miserable. So if we think of like, it’s funny cause I struggle with that at times. I, I curse like a fucking cartoon at different times. Like this thing doesn’t work. I’m like, just making noises and shit. And my partner on the other hand will go completely calm, silent almost and just methodical. Lybi Ma (10:22.67)Yeah, right. Nick McGowan (10:42.717)And it’s a thing that’s, I believe is actually part of her design, how she is. And I can get up at E and Nancy and all that. But then there are also layers to this where there’s trauma involved. There are different experiences, even things back to how our parents related to things. Like my parents would throw their arms up in the air about things. And I learned, I guess I do that. Like I get upset and pissed and like throw my arms up and flail. And my body still reacts at times that way where it’s like, yo, calm down. It’s totally fine. Being able to accept a thing. Lybi Ma (10:57.44)Nick McGowan (11:13.172)in the split second and then start to move in a different direction can be harder for people because of the things that they’ve gone through and even the way that they are. But how have you found to be able to work within the way that you best operate to say, all right, well, I can find acceptance and I can move on from here. Because I think that’s really where, that’s where the change happens is those macro moments where we actually do something. Cause it’s easy for you and I to shoot the shit and talk about this stuff. Lybi Ma (11:22.881)yeah, certainly. Nick McGowan (11:42.073)But it’s in that moment where you’re like, and how you don’t do that. You know what I mean? Lybi Ma (11:42.126)Yeah. Lybi Ma (11:48.493)You know, I never had a moment of epiphany. It just sort of moved along in the right direction. So I’m not going to say, wow, I had this aha that I had to accept things in life. No, was in my mind, I was hanging this guy up by his toes for a long time. So, and I don’t think there’s wrong, there’s anything wrong with doing that. if you have to feel it, then feel it. We spend a lot of time negating half our emotions. And that is something quite important and well studied. We want to feel happy and not depressed or not anxious or Nick McGowan (12:19.897)Yeah. Nick McGowan (12:36.866)Yeah. Lybi Ma (12:46.362)We don’t want to feel anger or I don’t know. Well, you feel these things and okay, feel them. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to lash out and burn a car. No, you’re just going to feel them. Sit there and feel it and watch it. Watch it. Nick McGowan (12:57.507)Yeah. Lybi Ma (13:05.102)with you and then okay well I gotta get up and cook dinner for the family so I gotta get moving here so I’m not gonna sit here and dwell about it. Maybe I’ll make an appointment and that’s another therapy tool. Make an appointment. If you need to feel crummy then okay I felt crummy at 4 30 to 5. I’m gonna do the same thing tomorrow 4 30 to 5 and I’m gonna Nick McGowan (13:13.365)Yeah. Yeah. Lybi Ma (13:33.772)sit with my feelings and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. Nick McGowan (13:36.109)Yeah. Nick McGowan (13:40.544)I’m right there with you. I think it’s important for us to feel that stuff where if you think about where we’re at right now, almost 2026 with technology and the amount of information, like we see all these things like social media, for example, you hop on, you see somebody doing this big thing, but you don’t have the context of all the other things that have happened before that or even 20 minutes before that when they’re screaming at somebody to get out of their way in the grocery store or whatever. And it’s like, This is what I said to you, I appreciate you being human because that moment where you’re like, this really hurts. I still got to make dinner for these people. We all got to eat tonight. Let me do that. And let me not also then just drag that out. And I find having the amount of conversations I have with people on the podcast and outside of that with clients, just random people that I come into contact with, it’s always interesting to me how somebody will, we want to always put up a better face than what’s really going on. Lybi Ma (14:17.102)Yeah Nick McGowan (14:38.499)And you also don’t want to just be completely shitty and just the world is on fire and totally. people have seemed to have a hard time finding equanimity within themselves to then be able to have a conversation outside of that. And it sounds to me like what you’ve experienced that a lot of us have, where it’s like over the course of time, the rock just gets smoother because the water was going over it. You finally go, okay, it’s been six months. I’ve been upset about this for so long, but some people still. Lybi Ma (15:05.486)Exactly. Nick McGowan (15:07.296)they still just keep going with that hatred for it, which I guess is kind of a different topic. But your book with being less miserable. Lybi Ma (15:15.404)No, think hatred is, no, hatred is important. I mean, if you’re gonna wallow in it, that’s probably not good, but sometimes anger, good anger used constructively will make you do things that are important in life. But hating people outright, I don’t know. I’m not too sure about that. Nick McGowan (15:25.954)Yeah. Nick McGowan (15:35.394)Yeah. Nick McGowan (15:43.811)Yeah, there are enough of those people that are sitting in an office. The rest of the government shut down right now. yeah, it’s interesting because I think that’s where I was headed with the wallowing in it. Like any of this, you don’t want to wallow in it, but you do need to sit in it. Like I’ve had conversations with people that they have a really hard time. It’s like the stove is too hot to even get close to touch it. And then there are other people that like they can put their entire body on it. Lybi Ma (15:50.894)my goodness. Nick McGowan (16:13.142)They can roll around on it like a bed of needles almost, you know, and just sit there. I find that that’s an interesting thing because that’s part of maybe their design, but also they’ve gotten to a point, some of them, where they go, look, I can’t do anything outside of the stuff that’s happening. So I can only do something with what I have here. So why waste my time anymore? Like they’ve wallowed enough or they’ve gone through enough of it. Lybi Ma (16:36.031)Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Nick McGowan (16:40.054)But how does this tie back into the stuff that you talk about specifically with miserable? Like that was part of the reason why I wanted to have you on here. was like, the word miserable is one of those things where there’s not really anything pleasant to it. It’s just fucking miserable. Like here we are. Lybi Ma (16:54.638)It’s the truth. Because we put the Western society puts a lot of weight on happiness. Happiness has to be a goal. And everybody runs around with their bucket lists and they have to do this and that to be happy. Well, no. Sure, you’re gonna go and see the Northern Lights. That’s nice. And you’re gonna be happy. But then you come down to your set level of mood that is well studied. We go up, we come down. grumpy people are in a certain spot. More upbeat people are up here and they move higher, but they always move down to their set level. And that is a hedonic adaptation. We just come back down to where. where we are in life. So the word happiness is not on my book cover because, you know, it’s, we should feel okay about not being happy all the time. That’s all there is to it. We’re not going to reach that crazy happiness all the time. It’s just not, I don’t think that’s realistic. I would rather be. Nick McGowan (18:22.177)Great. Lybi Ma (18:23.02)I want to be practical. And the other part is when we judge how we feel, I’m not happy, I must be a loser. any time you judge this feeling that you’re having, well, guess what? People have studied that and you kind of feel worse. You feel worse because you’re judging it. Nick McGowan (18:25.141)Yeah. Lybi Ma (18:50.766)It’s a funny thing. Yeah, I think it was came from UC Berkeley, researchers there. Yeah, you’re gonna sit there and say things about yourself that are not true. You’re making them up really. You’re gonna feel worse. So I don’t think we should try to be happy all the time. We can just. Nick McGowan (18:51.403)Yeah. Lybi Ma (19:18.604)be practical and just own up to all these things that we feel and not judge them. Nick McGowan (19:26.305)Obviously easier said than done for a good chunk of people. But that is, it’s such a critical piece where it’s like, if we, if we spend that time, like I know I’ve done this personally, where being angry or upset about something, you feel like you’re being active in it, but you’re just being animated in it. And you just keep going deeper and deeper down. I would spiral in that many, many years ago. And then learning from it, you go, Yeah, you can reach a point where you go, I’m just kind of bored with this. And this doesn’t make any sense to do this anymore. So why would I do that? But we do see stuff where people are talking about all the success that they had and the 15 year overnight success sort of situations where it’s like, if this person’s happy constantly, cause that’s all they post or whatever. And stepping outside of that, actually being within ourselves. I’d love that you’d said that you’re more in the country than you are with everybody else and being by yourself and being away from people, I would imagine you then have more time to actually be able to say, how do I feel right now? And do what you want with it instead of saying, well, I’m told I need to do something different, you know? Lybi Ma (20:39.95)Right, right. Well, who’s telling you to do it, first of all? Which one? I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. Nick McGowan (20:44.794)Yeah, well, sometimes it’s, Yeah. One of the voices, one of the many up there. So what actually led you to start the process to write the book? Did you just get so frustrated within yourself of like, have to put this out there? Did this kind of come up organically? Lybi Ma (20:55.69)Yeah, I don’t know. Lybi Ma (21:07.944)No, well, you know, I got over my… Lybi Ma (21:17.366)negative feelings about divorce and all that. And I moved on and plugged on. So that was good. I just, every time I read a new piece of research, I would squirrel it away. And I thought, yeah, that goes with the feelings that I had back then of being miserable. So I would squirrel it away. And then when COVID happened, I watched people. and they were interesting to watch. Some people did very well. Some people did very poorly. And I don’t want to get into a conversation about the introvert and the extrovert, whatever. I’m just talking about emotions and sitting with them generally, because even introverts need people. We’re all social. So that’s not really part of what I’m talking about. I just watched all of it and I thought, you know what, I think I have enough information here to write a book. So COVID sort of pushed me a little bit. Nick McGowan (22:31.231)Thanks, COVID. Yeah. Lybi Ma (22:32.398)I guess so. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know about that. Yeah, people were, I watched people and they had a lot of, you know, negative reaction to a negative thing that was happening. They were told to stay at home and then, and then get into a loop of bad feelings. It just went on and on and on. And I found that the thoughts that they had were quite irrational. And that is something also well studied. The brain is not very logical. It also has a very negative bias. are evolved into thinking negatively. Yeah, ancient man needed to be worried about predators and being eaten. They needed to be alert. is that a bad thing around the corner that’s going to eat me? Well, we the human brain has not changed that much. And we still do it. did that person insult me? And we got Nick McGowan (23:56.958)Yeah. Lybi Ma (23:57.535)And then you start doing this thing and it’s very, very not rational. It’s not positive. It’s pretty negative. And you just keep going in this distorted fashion. these negative things have a lasting impression and positive things are less important. And there was an interesting study where researchers Nick McGowan (24:03.496)Yeah. Lybi Ma (24:27.102)showed study subjects photographs. people on a roller coaster maybe or something neutral like a hairdryer and a gun pointed at you and people remember the gun. So negative things have a lasting impression. And this bias that we have, it makes sure that we hold on to our insults and grievances. We do a lot of things in our head that are irrational. Jump to conclusions, my date hated me, a fortune teller. Why would they even call me back anyway? Mind read. Nick McGowan (25:09.854)Yeah. Lybi Ma (25:22.39)I know that you’re thinking about me and it’s bad, all or nothing. I will not be happy until the end of time. Those sort of things. We do these things over and over and over to ourselves. really it doesn’t seem to be helping. Nick McGowan (25:44.625)No, but we all, I think, are somewhat addicted to it. And we don’t think that other people go through it. It’s almost like when we say, well, this person’s looking at me or what are they thinking about me? They’re probably not. And if they did, they noticed something and then they’re thinking about themselves. Like, I had that same jacket. Do I look like an asshole in that jacket? Is that me? And they’re off thinking about themselves. Meanwhile, both of them are like, my God, what are they thinking? Lybi Ma (25:49.761)Yeah, yeah. Lybi Ma (25:59.139)That you’re right. Lybi Ma (26:09.368)They’re so right. You are so right. They’re too busy thinking about themselves like we are too busy thinking about ourselves. It’s just we’re worried about how we look, how we appear. Did I say that? was it stupid? Did I sound stupid? whatever. Nick McGowan (26:19.911)Yeah. Nick McGowan (26:27.71)I think there’s a bit of a caveat though, because there are also times where we can grow from that stuff, because we can say, the situation in this whatever office or this call or whatever didn’t go the way that I wanted to, what could I have done differently? Like sort of watching game tape in a sense on yourself, but not beating yourself up with it and not in every single situation. Lybi Ma (26:51.278)Yeah, that part. Nick McGowan (26:54.235)Yeah, and being like, all right, well, what can I learn from this? What can I do a little differently? There’s a power within that, but then also removing the nonsensical shit. I’ve gotten to the point where I probably talk to myself more so than I did before and be like, easy there, asshole, calm down. Because like, random noises will come from other rooms, it seems, in the back of my head. Like, you can’t do that. You look like an asshole, that jacket. I’m like, shut up. Like, let me just kind of go. But being able to understand that there’s a balance to learning and growing and being able to review things and say, could I do a little differently? And beating yourself up can be a razor’s edge. But what kind of advice do you give for people that are trying to figure that stuff out? And they obviously don’t want to be miserable, but they’re also sort of addicted to that feeling of it because they’re so used to it, you know? Lybi Ma (27:50.062)One of the main things that I’ve read We have to be more aware that we’re doing it. and speak to ourselves. maybe in the third person. Libby’s doing that again. She’s disappointed and it’s turning into this thing. And now that distorted thinking is taken off. Okay, Libby, stop that. We have to be aware and point it out. So great research from University of Michigan. Nick McGowan (28:12.177)Yep. Lybi Ma (28:35.15)you observe. And that’s Buddhist to me. You observe this thought and meditation is a little like that. there’s a thought, watch it go by. That’s nice. Whatever. It’s a thought. It’s not real. And a lot of times our thoughts lie to us. So don’t do it. at least if you if you keep doing it, know that you’re doing and then in addition to that, you label it. So if it’s a feeling, well, Libby is angry at not right now because XYZ happened and she’s going to hold on to this grievance and nurse that grievance until whenever. Okay, that’s nice. You know, you’re doing that again. So We label how we feel. I’m feeling sad right now. That’s good. I’m feeling angry right now. And talk to yourself a little bit, but not in a, you say, beat yourself up mode. And then you turn to self-sabotage. So you want to numb yourself. It goes into this cycle of… Nick McGowan (30:02.747)Yeah, vicious cycle. Lybi Ma (30:04.502)Yeah, yeah, turns into a cycle. You beat yourself up and it leads leads to this negativity and you’re not very nice to yourself. So that’s another thing. Self-compassion is very important. Water research on that. You want to count right. You want to be compassionate to your to ourselves and breathe while you’re being compassionate. Nick McGowan (30:21.915)Yeah, grace with ourselves even. Lybi Ma (30:34.626)People stop breathing and when they’re tense and in the moment of being reactive to an unhappy situation and when you stop breathing, well, cortisol goes up and you become alert and you’re looking for the predator. No, you know what? Just breathe and let your body work it out. It’s not bad. Nick McGowan (30:36.815)Yeah. Nick McGowan (30:52.165)Yeah. Nick McGowan (31:03.226)I love this sort of stuff. I love that we’re able to get into this because I know there are other, I don’t want to talk bad about any podcasts or other people’s interviews or anything like that. But there are conversations out there that are very surfacey where it can talk about, yeah, you want to be aware and you want to look at these things and then do some with it. You want to show grace to yourself. And we also need to talk about when it’s really difficult to do that because even in like the moment you just said where you stopped breathing. scientifically, that takes oxygen away from your blood. Your blood is no longer moving oxygen through the rest of your fucking body. And your brain is a part of that. So it’s like science-wise, that makes sense. I think there’s also a balance of not just saying, I’m aware of this thing and if I’m shitty again, then so be it. I’m aware of it. It’s doing something with it, not beating yourself up and still being able to understand that I can’t bypass this. Lybi Ma (31:37.538)Right. Nick McGowan (32:02.521)Because I think that’s where the happiness stuff comes in. If you’re feeling bad, just go be happy. cool, great. Fuck the trauma and all the other nonsense that I absolutely need to process out of my body. Let me just go be happy. And then you go be happy and you do a thing and you go, like you said earlier, right back to your own little status quo and you go, shit, I am still a miserable bastard. What do I do from here? Let me look for another happy thing. And you’re like, off to do it again. Just bypassing the bullshit, you know? Lybi Ma (32:10.574)I Lybi Ma (32:28.846)Right. doesn’t really, you always go back to where you were. Nick McGowan (32:37.294)Yeah, awareness is such a big thing that my logical and smart-ass mind thinks, well, that makes total sense to me. Because if you’re not aware, how the fuck are you aware? Like if you don’t know a thing’s there, you can’t do anything about it. But that’s really when the work begins. Like you’re aware and you go, I’m aware of this feeling. And I’m glad that you brought up the next part of that being naming it. That is really difficult for a lot of people to name. Lybi Ma (32:41.046)Yeah. Nick McGowan (33:05.24)what their emotion is. They go, I’m just angry. Really, maybe you’re grieving or maybe you’re really upset that’s not just anger, but it’s a betrayal that happened or something like that. And actually being able to call what it is instead of just going, just a sticker almost. You’re like, and I’m shitty right now and push it off to the next thing and just move along instead of actually doing that work. But that, I don’t know. I feel like I can go. Lybi Ma (33:29.944)Right. Nick McGowan (33:32.557)deep with it because that’s where systems come into play that tell us, don’t do this, just keep working, just keep hustling, keep grinding, keep blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It makes me almost just wanna fucking throw up in my mouth every time I even think about it. Cause it’s like, we are hurting ourselves, we’re hurting each other and we’re perpetuating it because none of us are just going, time out. Give me a fucking second. What is this? What am I feeling? So talk to us about how the book relates to that. Lybi Ma (34:02.349)Lybi Ma (34:06.018)Sitting with our emotions, you mean? Nick McGowan (34:08.677)And understanding like if you’re feeling miserable and being less miserable is still taking away that but it’s not bypassing it. It’s not letting you bypass it. Lybi Ma (34:17.386)No, no, you have to feel what you feel. Otherwise, it’s not true. You have this feeling and it’s a true feeling and you should feel it. once you do that, you let yourself do that, you will probably break through a bit more to get beyond and be less miserable. You know, you will probably thank yourself. I do. I do. You know, it’s an interesting thing. My husband and I don’t fight very often, but we’ve been through tense, you know, when you move and all that stuff. And yeah, it’s not easy. And I can catch myself. Oh, wait, I’m being reactive at this moment. And I’ll just stop and think, wow, that’s interesting. I’m doing it. I’m doing it at this very moment. And I start talking out loud. all right, hang with me for a minute here while I think about why I’m having this reaction. Why am I having this reaction? What is bringing this up? Nick McGowan (35:39.383)Yeah. Lybi Ma (35:46.219)I think we need to stop because you start spinning in that in a certain direction of negativity and you might as well just stop it and just ask yourself, what’s what is this and observe and instead of being in it, just step outside and and look at it. Yeah. Nick McGowan (35:54.274)Yeah. Nick McGowan (36:07.256)and look at it. Yeah. Huh. And that’s, that’s a simple, like incredible thing though, to say live in the moment, like, hold on, give me a second. I’m feeling something. Let me work through this and come back to you. it’s almost like having a conversation, a heated conversation and saying, I need a second and stepping away. That could be really, really difficult for a lot of people in that moment because you’re so in it, but If you think about any time you’ve ever said that, even to yourself or to your husband or anybody else. Lybi Ma (36:40.942)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (36:45.816)Probably most every single time they’ve respected it. Lybi Ma (36:49.686)Yes. Yes, you’re not, you’re not trying to run from the situation. You’re just trying to understand what’s going on inside yourself. And a lot of times when you’re in a fight with a partner or someone, usually it’s person closest to you, because they’re the ones who are gonna forgive you. But usually it’s just sort of, you know, not, it isn’t about that moment. It’s about something else. Something else is going on. Yeah, it brings up some, yeah, go ahead. Nick McGowan (37:33.815)And it’s not… Yeah. It’s not just those people. We often will take it out on the people we love because they’re the closest and they know us the most. And yes, you said they will forgive us, but that doesn’t give us a license to abuse the shit out of them because you’re angry that somebody took the last fucking piece of bread at whatever grocery store or whatever happened earlier. And you’re like, God damn the person closest to me. It’s like, but what do they do? what? Yeah. Lybi Ma (37:51.246)to do that. Lybi Ma (38:00.303)Yeah. Lybi Ma (38:04.682)nothing. They’re just standing there. They’re standing there. I don’t know. They’re just standing there. Yeah. I think one another way to, since you’re looking for ways to counter it, I mean, you know, there’s many things to do, you start being more mindful. So I try to call out my reactivity with being mindful, breathe, I write things down. Nick McGowan (38:10.327)Yeah. Lybi Ma (38:34.67)And I try to be grateful in the moment. You’re having a fight and I try to be grateful to the person I’m fighting with. If you show them grace and your self grace and you’ll get through the dumb fight, whatever it was that you’re, and just go with the flow of things. I don’t mean lay down and just die. What I mean is, Nick McGowan (38:44.47)Sure. Yeah. Nick McGowan (38:54.548)Yeah. Lybi Ma (39:04.301)You. get into the flow of life. And there’s been quite a lot of work on the topic of flow for decades. we move with what is happening. Flow is more complicated than that. mean, it has to do with… Nick McGowan (39:13.056)Yeah. Nick McGowan (39:26.208)Yeah. Lybi Ma (39:33.132)being very, very engaged in what you’re doing. So a writer would feel flow when they’re writing or the piano player is really into the music or even listening to music, you running, you get in the flow, but you can apply the flow theory into life, everyday life. Just go with it. I think that’s important. Nick McGowan (39:58.038)That’s really important. And I appreciate that you point out these things that in some ways, and as I said earlier, there are other conversations that get real surfacey and they go, yeah, go with the flow. Cool. Let’s stop there. Just go with the flow. Being able to be mindful, to talk about these things, even with the gratitude. Like I’ve heard for years and years, people are like, just be grateful and gratitude this and gratitude that and have a gratitude journal, blah, blah, blah. It’s like all those things can be good and helpful if they are good and helpful. If you’re just being Lybi Ma (40:24.192)Right. Nick McGowan (40:25.065)grateful and you’re like, I fucking had this and God, I’m grateful for it. But even in that moment of being grateful that you have a partner to be able to argue with and, and yeah. And then that’ll automatically just disarm you a little bit. Like even as you’re saying that I’m picturing it and picturing, you know, me with my partner arguing about whatever. And to think of that, I just want to hug her because I love her. I love that I have the partner to be able to Lybi Ma (40:29.518)All right. Lybi Ma (40:35.778)Right? A lot of people don’t. Lybi Ma (40:42.755)Yeah. Nick McGowan (40:53.737)bitch can complain about things with or whatever. And it’s like, if we can be aware of that and actually show the grace and do the thing in the moment, instead of just saying, just be grateful and gratitude this and gratitude that. It’s like, fuck your gratitude unless you’re actually gonna do something with it. Because then it’s the moment, that moment right there where you do something with it instead of just saying, well, I’m just gonna go back to my old ways and just be kind of shitty about it. So for the people that are trying to be less miserable. Lybi Ma (41:09.23)Ha Nick McGowan (41:23.375)or trying to just wrap their head around how they can give themselves grace and kind of work through life at their pace instead of just what the rest of the world tells us we should do. What’s your advice for somebody that’s on their path towards self mastery? Lybi Ma (41:40.275)Give yourself a break, please. Good Lord. I don’t know why we have to be so hard on ourselves. And we run around looking for solutions to everything. Well, sometimes, you know, life does work out. It does work out. And I think we don’t have to make it harder. Nick McGowan (41:42.793)Nice. Lybi Ma (42:09.774)We make it harder, we fight with life, and I think we can watch it a little. Doesn’t mean that we should not be proactive and move forward and reach our goals, but we can calm down a bit about how we treat ourselves, and you will be less miserable. Nick McGowan (42:35.093)I love that, especially like the come down. Like that’s the vibe I got like right off the bat. Chill out, give yourself a break. Just relax. It’s not the end of the world. And yeah, just chill out. Lybi Ma (42:39.95)Yeah. It isn’t. It is not the end of the world. Bad things do happen and it feels like it’s going to be the end of the world, but actually things do work out. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Nick McGowan (42:55.379)Yeah, divorces. You know, the people that have gone through it, you understand that. I had different people when I got a divorce, they were like, man, I was in bad shape for years. And I was like, well, that sucks. I don’t want to go through that. And I’m like, well, I didn’t get a, I didn’t get married to get a divorce, but I didn’t get a divorce to die. So, and I’m thankful it happened. I mean, I wish her the best, but I wouldn’t have my partner now. I wouldn’t have my business and all the other things that have come from it. Lybi Ma (43:06.296)Right, right. Lybi Ma (43:14.927)Right. Nick McGowan (43:24.777)But I want to touch on something you pointed out where it’s like, give yourself a break, the things will work out and things happen. I was actually sort of joking, but sort of like, this is just a mind fuck of a thing with my coach recently, where I understand that the right things happen at the right times. Always. It’s actually an affirmation of mine. It’s the anxiety before and the anxiety after that exact one moment. Because that one moment is where like, these things happen at the right time. Like, look. Lybi Ma (43:50.828)Okay. Nick McGowan (43:54.45)And I’ve seen it happen. Like it lines up where it’s like, I couldn’t have scripted this. God was like, this is how this thing’s going to work. And it’s like, that’s incredible. But there’s anxiety for the 98 % before and all the other stuff after it, where it’s like that one moment. But that one moment happens and happens more often than not, know? So it’s just a weird little situation that we can get lost in all the other minutia of it. Lybi Ma (44:17.825)Right, right. Nick McGowan (44:23.912)So I appreciate you being as real as you are. I’m like, just calm down, chill out. It’ll be okay. Lybi Ma (44:24.152)Right. It’s gonna be okay. I wish I told my, knew that when I was younger. It’s gonna be okay. It will be. Nick McGowan (44:36.616)Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. And just like, if you could go back and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you say? And I think most people probably say it with a fist and then shake them a little bit with whatever, like whatever you’re going to do, don’t. but that’s what this podcast is for. Like, let’s talk about these things because we’re all going through it. Like, let’s not shy away from that. We all go through this stuff. So, Libby, I really appreciate you being on today. I appreciate the work that you’re doing. Lybi Ma (44:51.224)Hahaha Lybi Ma (45:03.894)All right. Nick McGowan (45:05.208)and you’re putting out the books that you are and just that you’re able to work with that information that’s coming to you and help spread that out and being as real as you are. So thank you for being here. Of course, and before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? And of course, where can they get the book? Lybi Ma (45:14.882)Thank you. Lybi Ma (45:22.478)Well, of course, I’m on Psychology Today. You’ll find me there on the website. And you’ll find my book on the, you know, any major source like Amazon or Barnes & Noble, that sort of thing. Nick McGowan (45:44.541)Perfect. And I’ll have some of those links in the show notes too. So again, thank you so much for being with us today. Appreciate it. Lybi Ma (45:50.933)Thank you.

In this episode I sit down and share the entire inspiration for this D-Now, Winter Retreat & Summer Camp on-going games with my friend, Andrew Jansen. Andrew is a 10+ year youth worker, and his assassin game sparked this entire podcast mini-series. He expains his creative (and super CHEAP) adaptation to this game. Plus! Andrew shared his lock-in survival guide for FREE! Andrew's Lock-in Guide: https://www.patreon.com/posts/10-year-veterans-146449370?utmmedium=clipboardcopy&utmsource=copyLink&utmcampaign=postsharecreator&utmcontent=join_link SHOW NOTES Shownotes & Transcripts https://www.hybridministry.xyz/184 BECOME A HYBRID HERO https://www.patreon.com/hybridministry ❄️ WINTER SOCIAL MEDIA PACK https://www.patreon.com/posts/winter-seasonal-144943791?utmmedium=clipboardcopy&utmsource=copyLink&utmcampaign=postsharecreator&utmcontent=join_link

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight's Host Miko Lee speaks with authors who have used their personal lives to tell their stories. They both talk and write about trauma, joy and resilience but in two very different ways. First up she chats with Chanel Miller. Many folx might know of Chanel's best selling first book Know My Name which expands on the powerful victim impact letter she wrote to Brock Turner who brutally sexually assaulted her on the Stanford Campus. We talk about her latest work – two delightful books for young people. Then Miko talks with Kazu Haga who weaves his spiritual practice and trauma healing with a deep lineage of nonviolent social change.  In his books, Fierce Vulnerability and Healing Resistance he shares with us his personal journey and offers some insightful visions for our current tumultuous world.  Links to the Author's work: Kazu Haga  Fierce Vulnerability Kinship Lab,  Chanel Miller Chanel Miller The Moon Without Stars Purchase Chanel's books at East Wind Books and Kazu's books at Parallax Press  SHOW TRANSCRIPT APEX Opening: Apex Express. Asian Pacific Expression. Community and cultural coverage. Music and calendar. New visions and voices. Coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express. Miko Lee: Good evening. Welcome to apex express. This is your host, Miko Lee. Join us as you hop along the apex express. Tonight I speak with authors who have used their personal lives to tell their stories. They both talk and write about trauma, joy, and resilience, but in two very different and distinct ways. First up, I chat with Chanel Miller. Many folks might know of Chanel's bestselling first book Know My Name, which expands on the powerful victim impact letter she wrote to Brock Turner, who brutally sexually assaulted her on the Stanford campus. But tonight we talk about her latest work, two delightful books for young people. And then I talk with Kazu Haga, who weaves his spiritual practice and trauma healing with a deep lineage of nonviolent social change. In his books Fierce vulnerability and Healing Resistance, he shares with us his personal journey and offers some insightful visions for our current tumultuous world. First off, listen to my conversation with Chanel Miller. Welcome, author Chanel Miller to Apex Express. Chanel Miller: Thank you so much for having me. It's a delight to be here with you. Miko Lee: I'm really excited to talk to you, and I wanna start with my first question, which I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Chanel Miller: Oh, I have so many people. Today, you're my people who continue to help guide me forward. I grew up in the Bay Area and I feel like honestly all of my books are attempts at saying thank you to the people who raised me, the English teachers in my public schools. For helping me stay aligned with myself and never letting me drift too far. And so even though I tell very different stories for different demographics, I think if you look at the root of everything that I write, it's gratitude because they are the people who protected my voice in the first place. Miko Lee: Thank you so much. So we're talking about your third book. Your first book was amazing. Know my name, which is really powerful memoir about surviving sexual assault at Stanford, and this incredible public reclamation of your voice. And then you move from that very personal, internal, very adult work to your second book, which was so lovely and sweet. Magnolia Woo unfolds it all, which was an illustrated book set New York about a little girl and her friend who reunite people with their lost socks. From this all the way to this young person's book and your latest book, the Moon Without Stars, your second, YA novel is based in middle school. So talk to me a little bit about this journey from personal memoir to elementary school to middle school books. Chanel Miller: Yeah, so like you said, the first book was so internal and gutting to write. I knew I needed. Something that would help me breathe a little easier and get in touch with playfulness again. I wrote Magnolia Woo Unfolds it all. It's perfect for kids ages seven to 12. My goal was just to enjoy the process of writing and story making. And it was confusing because I thought if I'm not, you know, during the memoir, I would be like crying while I was writing and it was just taking everything out of me. And I was like, if I'm not actively upset. Is the writing even good? Like, like, you know, does it count? And it turns out, yes, you can still create successful stories and have a good time. So I did that book for myself really. And the kid in me who always wanted to, who was always, writing stories unprompted. Like you said, it was a book about a sock detective and pursuing socks makes no sense. It's almost impossible to return a missing sock in New York City. But I loved the idea of these. This little girl in pursuit of something, even if she doesn't know what the outcome will be. Right. It's just trying even if you're not promised a reward, I love this. And for me it's like I keep attempting to love my reality, right? Attempting to go out into the world with an exploratory lens rather than a fearful one. And so that was very healing for me. After I finished that book, I spent the next year writing this new book, the Moon Without Stars. It's for slightly older kids, like you said in middle school. So my protagonist Luna, is 12 years old and she's biracial like me, goes to middle school in Northern California like I did in Palo Alto. I was just reflecting on my. Upbringing, I would say, and really sitting back and letting memories come to the surface. Trying to see how much, was just unexplored. And then sitting down to, to figure out what it all meant that I remembered all of these things. Miko Lee: So how much of Luna is inspired by Chanel? Chanel Miller: A fair amount, I'd say. And it's not always an intentional, I think fiction deals a lot with the subconscious and you end up writing about yourself on accent luna in the book. She is the campus book doctor, is what I call it. Because when kids are going through something, they'll come to her and she'll prescribe them a book that'll help them for whatever phase of life they're going through. And I know for me from a very young age, I loved reading, writing, and drawing. It's all that I ever wanted to do and I was so mad in school that we had six different subjects and you know, the Bay Area was very tech. Centered, STEM centered. And so I felt all this pressure even through high school to take AP Science classes. In retrospect, I thought, why was I trying so hard to be good at it? Everything. This is impossible. And so for Luna, I own her gifts early. And understand that they were gifts at all. The fact that she loves to read and then she shares her gifts and she takes pride in the things that she's passionate about. She's not ashamed that she's not so hot about math. Miko Lee: So the hating math part is a little Chanel inspired also. Chanel Miller: The hating math part is fully me. I'm sorry to say. Miko Lee: No worries. I think that stereotype about Asians and math is so highly overrated. I'm wondering if there was a Scott for you, a bestie that was also an outcast, if there was someone like that for you when you were growing up. Chanel Miller: Yeah, so in the book, Luna is best friends with Scott. They've been friends since childhood, and as Luna starts to get more attention, their relationship is threatened and it begins to dissolve. I was really interested in how, Luna obviously loves Scott as a friend and she would never. Mean to hurt him, right? It's not inflicting intentional emotional pain, but Scott gets very hurt. I think about how sometimes when we're growing up, we get drawn to certain crowds or paid a kind of attention and we have this longing to be desired to fit in. we sometimes make choices that we're not very proud of, but this is a part of it, right? And so I wanted Luna to reckon with maybe some of the emotional harm she's causing and not run away from it. But also think about like, why am I making these choices and what is important to me? We're all kind of constantly reevaluating our value systems, trying to keep our relationships alive, like this is, starts at a very young age and I wanted her to learn some of the self gifts that maybe I didn't give myself when I was that age. Miko Lee: So in a way, she's a little bit of a remedy for your young self or a gift to your young self. Do you think? Chanel Miller: Oh, that's a nice way of putting it. Yeah, I would definitely say so. I think all writing is, is remedy in some form, at least for me, but I like the, it being a gift to little Chanel. Miko Lee: It's been compared to the classic. Are you there god, it's me, Margaret? What is it like for you to hear that? Chanel Miller: It's an honor, obviously. I think what's most stunning is a lot of the themes that were contested in that book. You know, talking about bodily changes, menstruation like. A lot of that is still kind of hush hush, and I'm surprised by the things that haven't changed , or how our society hasn't completely evolved. I really wanted middle school so hard physically, emotionally, and. It can feel so humiliating that you're trying to solve a lot of your issues in private, and I wanted to take the shame out of it as quickly as possible and just say, this is a universal experience. Everyone goes through these things. It's totally okay to talk about it, even if books get banned. Find a way, find your people. Find a way to have these conversations. Miko Lee: For me, it's so much better than, are you there? God, it's me, Margaret, because it's set in a contemporary. There's a young biracial Asian American girl who's a outcast and really it's about belonging and getting your first period and all the things you have to go through in middle school. That seems really. Relatable for a young woman in our society. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. I read it really quick one night, easily read 'cause it's so lovely. I'm wondering about your process because you illustrated, your last book and then also the cover of this book. And on the cover it's sweet because it has all these cute little zines that she writes about are encapsulated on the cover of the book, which you only realize after you read it. I'm wondering for you as an artist, what comes first in the story, the image or the words? Chanel Miller: That's a great question. Yeah. I like to illustrate my books. Sometimes I'll think of a, something I do wanna draw and then think, how can I build a story around that, or like a visually rich scene. Then I come up with writing to allow myself to draw the thing. Other times I will just write, but I, I will say that when I'm writing, I never have a plot. I'm not an outliner. I am very much an explorer. I'm okay with not knowing for long periods of time where the book is gonna go, what it's about , and how it's gonna end. I don't know any of these things. And luckily I have a very gracious, agent and editor and my editor. I had two editors, Jill and Juan, and they let me just submit chunks of writing for six months. Scenes that didn't go together, that were completely out of order , to show them I'm attempting to build this world and this school full of kids, but I don't know how it's all gonna play out yet. And then after six months, we had enough material to, to begin to identify like who the primary characters were gonna be, what the essential conflict was gonna be. I'm saying this because I want people to know that you don't have to know much before you sit down to write. And the knowing comes with the practice of doing every day, and then slowly things start to reveal themselves. Miko Lee: Oh, I appreciate that. So you don't have a linear timeframe. You kind of just let things come to you. Sometimes they're in images, sometimes they're in words. Chanel Miller: Yes. And then your job is to capture them and be curious about them and then make more until you have enough. Then you can edit, but you edit too early, you're gonna , kill the spirit of the thing. Miko Lee: When do you know you have enough? Chanel Miller: When you fulfill the word count in your contract? No, no, I think it's, it's like you can. Sort of start to feel things click into place or a voice is emerging that's very strong. Even Scott know, Luna's best friend, I didn't have him at the very beginning, I don't think originally. Originally, I think Luna had a sister. It was gonna be a sister book, and then it became a friend. You're just open to it evolving, and then suddenly you're like, oh, I can, I can see this relationship. Can see them existing within the structure. It feels more real to you and at that point you can just go in and start revising Miko Lee: Did you create images for know my name? Chanel Miller: I actually tried to, at the very end, I made a bunch of drawings and I said, can we put these at the start of each chapter? And my editor, who's incredible, she said, you know, when I look at your drawings, they have a different voice than your writing voice. And I was like, that is true. Like, that's a great critique. So instead I went to New York, they were like about to send the book to print and I was like, okay, but I need like one drawing. They said, okay, if you can do it at lunch, like have it done by the end of lunch, we'll put it in the acknowledgement. So I dedicated the book to my family and. I sat at the desk and just did this little, these four little creatures that represented my immediate family and cut it outta my notebook. They scanned it in and sent it off to print with a book. So I did get, I did get it. Miko Lee: And how is the illustrator's voice different from the author's voice? Chanel Miller: The illustrator's voice can be very loose, whimsical, playful, whereas the writing, you know, was so measured and heavy and intentional, and so. I liked that edit, and I also, my editor was confident that I would have more opportunities in the future to write and draw, whereas I felt so vulnerable. It's my first book, it's my only chance to say or do anything, but that's not true. Now I understand like I have time to make all kinds of things. You don't have to shove it all into one project. Miko Lee: And are these, more youth-focused books? Do you feel like that's more a combination of your illustrator and your author voice? Chanel Miller: Totally. The medium like allows you to do both. It kind of asks for images also. Who knows, maybe, I still wanna write, contemporary fiction for adults and maybe I'll adults like visuals too. Absolutely. Miko Lee: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm wondering what you want young readers to walk away with after reading the, your latest book. Chanel Miller: Things smooth out in really unexpected ways. And that you can never truly mess up. Like I messed up so many times growing up or would get a really bad grade. I really would think like, this is the end. Like my future just disappeared. I just can't recover from this, and I always would, and I'm here now, like there, there are so many times I guess, that I thought my life was totally and completely over and, it was never the case. Sure, life could be sour for a bit, or you could be really stressed out, but it's not the end. Different things will change. People will be introduced to help you. Like you just keep showing up in whatever way you can. You won't be stuck in that place. It's been a nice thing to learn, as you get older. I just remember when I felt young, it felt so impossible sometimes, and I promise it's not, Miko Lee: I imagine that with Know my name. Many people came up with you, survivors came up and shared their stories with you, and I'm wondering if that was the same with your second book, if people came up and just told stories about, being a kid detective or what their, if it brought things up for them in a totally different realm. Chanel Miller: Oh yeah, absolutely. In the book, Magnolia's parents are Chinese and, , they're working at a laundromat and a customer comes in and there's, microaggressions happen and, I think with microaggressions you can always. Justify them in your head and say, it's not as bad as explicit violence or something, where it's not a truly a crime. And so you kind of push them to the side, push them to the side, but over time, like they do really stick with you and they're so hurtful and they accumulate and they're not okay to begin with. And I wanted my little character, Magnolia to. Just feel that anger that I often suppress and be like, it's not okay for people to talk to you like that. Like we are allowed to say something about it. It's dehumanizing and it's unacceptable. I wanted to give her the opportunity to confront that emotion and really express what, how it made her feel. Miko Lee: You're just starting your book tour right now. Is that right? For the Moon Without Stars. Chanel Miller: My book comes out January 13th. I'll go on a two week book tour. I'll have two stops in the Bay area. One at, book passage in Cord Madera. One in Los Altos at a church. It's sponsored by Linden Tree Books. We're just doing the event offsite, so if you're in the bay and wanna come say hello, please do that. Miko Lee: Yay. Excited to hear about that. I'm curious, I'm really curious what kind of stories people will tell you about their kind of middle school bully experience or their standing up to bullies and wanting to be in the popular crowd and what's that like? It's such a common middle school experience. Chanel Miller: I'm just really happy that people like have the opportunity to remember, 'cause it's not what we talk about every day. I just love that things are coming up for people and you're like, wow, I never would've thought about that or. I, I, that's why writing is so fun. You get to remember. Miko Lee: It's definitely not what we talk about every day, but definitely that middle school time really, helps shape who we are as adults. That's a really tough time because there's so many hormones going crazy in your body. So many changes that I think a lot of people have big feelings about middle school. Tell us what's next for you. Chanel Miller: I still love writing middle grade like this age is so sweet. It's so rich, emotionally rich. I would like to do something that's, you know, this one was more contemporary realism and I would love to do something that, not pure fantasy, but like breaks the rules of reality a little bit. Just really see where my imagination can go. A little magical realism perhaps. Yeah, absolutely. Miko Lee: I would just encourage you, I really love the Scott and Luna characters and seeing them patch their relationship up in high school as friends and how they can grow. Oh, I think would be a really sweet story also, and how they could explore maybe through magical realism. Some of the, book Doctors Zine World would be fun. Yeah. Yeah. I like those characters, is what I'm saying. I think there's more to come outta those characters and their friendship. Chanel Miller: Oh, that's really sweet. You don't wanna say goodbye to them yet. Miko Lee: Yeah, that's right. Well, it has been a delight chatting with you. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and your work and it's very powerful. Appreciate chatting with you. Chanel Miller: I really appreciate the platform you provide and how you're making room for these genuine conversations. So thank you so much. Jalena Keane-Lee: Next up, listen to blues scholars ode to Yuri Kochiyama. That was Blue Scholars, Ode to Yuri Kochiyama. Miko Lee: Yuri Koyama said, we are all part of one another, and that relates so well to my conversation with author, organizer and teacher Kazu Haga. Welcome, Kazu Haga to Apex Express. I'm so glad to have you with us. Kazu Haga: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Miko Lee: I'm gonna start with a question that I ask all of my guests because I'm a curious person, and my question is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Kazu Haga: Oh, wow. Well, when you ask the second question, the immediate response is that I am Japanese. There's a lot of important legacies that come with that. Of course there's so much of my Japanese ancestry that I'm proud of and want to continue to deepen in and understand better. But I'm also aware that, you know, being Japanese, I come from colonizer people, right? And I'm so aware of the. Harm that my ancestors caused to so many people, whether dating back all the way to indigenous. I knew people in Japan, or a lot of the violence that my ancestors committed during the war to Zan Korean communities and Chinese communities and Filipino communities. I feel like in addition to all the beauty and the amazing things that I love about Japanese culture, that's a legacy that I carry with me and a lot of my work has to do with trying to understand what it means to carry that legacy and what it means to try to heal from that legacy and how I take that approach into my own personal life as well as into my activist work. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for recognizing that history and sharing a little bit about your path. I can see so much of how that turns up in your work. So I've had the pleasure of reading your two latest two books. I'm sure there'll be many more to come, I hope. Can you speak a little bit about what inspired you to create healing resistance? Kazu Haga: Yeah, so healing resistance is my interpretation of a set of teachings called kingian non-violence, and it's a philosophy that was based on the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King. And I have the great privilege to have been mentored by a lot of elders who work very closely with Dr. King and were some of the most instrumental leaders in the civil Rights movement. I started my kind of activist career back in 1999 or something like that when I was 18, 19 years old. And for the longest time, the word non-violence didn't have a lot of meaning to me. But when I was 28 years old, I think I took this two-day workshop on this philosophy called King Non-Violence, and that two-day workshop just completely changed my life forever. I thought after 10 years of doing nothing but social justice movement building work, that I had some idea of what the word non-violence meant and some idea of who Dr. King was. But that two day workshop taught me that I knew nothing about what the word non-violence meant. Since I took that workshop, I feel like I've been on this never ending journey to better understand what it means to practice non-violence and incorporate that as a value into my life. And so healing resistance is, yeah, just my spin on the teachings of Dr. King told through the stories of my life experiences. Miko Lee: I really appreciated how you wove together your personal journey with your, understanding of movement building and how you incorporated that in. I'm wondering, I think it was in this book, but I read both of your books close to back to back, so I might be mixing them up, but I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the salt protestors that happened in India and the two years of training that it took them to be able to stand up and for our listeners, just like really back up and explain what that protest was about, and then the kind of training that it took to get there. Kazu Haga: It was actually more than two years. So, you know, everyone, or a lot of people know about the Salt March. It's the thing that I think a lot of people look to as the thing that really sparked the Indian Independence Movement, similar to the Montgomery Bus boycott in the US Civil Rights Movement. It's when a group of people marched across India all the way to the ocean. Engaged in an act of civil disobedience was, which was to go into the water and make their own salt. Salt is something that had been heavily controlled and taxed by the British Empire, and so the people who lived even on the coast of the ocean were not allowed to make their own salt. And so it was an act of civil disobedience to break a British colonial law saying that we are reclaiming this ancestral cottage industry for ourselves. And one of the reasons why it was so powerful and drew so many millions of people out into the street was because when Gandhi envisioned it. He didn't just put out an open call and said, anyone who wants to join the March can join. Ultimately, that's where they landed. But when the March started, he selected, I think it was about 76 of his followers, and he chose these 76 people and said, you all are gonna start the Salt March. And he chose those 76 people because they had lived in Astrom. And did spiritual practice and engaged in creative nonviolent direct action together for 16 years before they embarked on the salt march. So it was 16 years of kinda like dedicated residential spiritual training , and nonviolent direct action training that allowed these people to become the type of leaders that could draw out millions and millions of people into the street. And so it's one of the things that I really learned about the legacy of nonviolence is the importance of training and understanding that preparing ourselves spiritually to lead a movement that can transform nations is a lifetime of work. And to not underestimate the importance of that training and that rigor. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for correcting me. Not two but 16 years and a really a lifetime to, that's right. To develop the skills. I wonder if you've been following the Buddhist monks that are walking across the US right now. Kazu Haga: Yeah. And the dog, right? Miko Lee: Yeah. Whose dog and that dog. And I wonder what your thoughts are on that. Kazu Haga: I've really come to this place where I understand injustice and state violence, not as a political issue, but as a manifestation of our collective trauma. Like all the forms of state violence and injustice that we see, they happen because collectively as nation states and as communities and as a species, we have unresolved trauma that we haven't been able to heal from. And I think if we can see injustice less as a political issue and more as a manifestation of collective trauma, then perhaps we can build movements that have the sensitivity to understand that we can't just shut down injustice that when you're responding to a trauma response, what you need to do is to try to open things up. Things like spiritual practice and spiritual worldviews, like what, however that word spiritual lands on people. I think that there's a broad understanding of spirituality that doesn't have to include any sort of religious stigma. But when we ground ourselves in spiritual practice, when we ground ourselves in this larger reality that we belong to something so much larger than ourselves as individuals, then a lot more is possible and we're able to open things up and we're able to slow things down in response to the urgency of this moment, which I think is so necessary. When I look at these Buddhist monks spending however months it's gonna take for them to reach Washington dc the patience. The rigor and the slowness. How every step is a prayer for them. And so all of those steps, all of that effort is I think adding to something that has the possibility to open something up in a way that a one day protest cannot. So I'm really inspired by that work. Miko Lee: And it's amazing to see how many people are turning out to walk with them or to watch them. And then on the same hand, or the other hand, is seeing some folks that are protesting against them saying, that this is not the right religion, which is just. Kind of shocking to me. Grew up in a seminary environment. My dad was a professor of social ethics and we were really taught that Jesus is a son of God and Kuan is a daughter of God. And Muhammad, all these different people are sons and daughters of God and we're all under the same sky. So it seems strange that to me, that so many folks are using religion as a tool for. Pain and suffering and injustice and using it as a justification. Kazu Haga: Yeah. It's sad to hear people say that this is the wrong religion to try to create change in the world because I think it's that worldview that is at the heart of what is destroying this planet. Right. It's, it's not this way. It has to be that way and this binary right. Wrong way of thinking. Miko Lee: Yeah. Kazu Haga: But yeah. The first spiritual book I ever read when I was 16 years old was a book by Thích Nhất Hanh called Living Buddha, living Christ. Yes. And in that book he was saying that the teachings of the Buddha and the teachings of Jesus Christ, if you really look at the essence of it, is the same thing. Miko Lee: That's right. Yeah. This brings us to your book, fierce Vulnerability, healing from Trauma Emerging Through Collapse. And we are living in that time right now. We're living in a time of utter collapse where every day it seems like there's a new calamity. We are seeing our government try to take over Venezuela right now and put police forces into Minnesota. It's just crazy what's going on. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about this book. Clearly it's the Times that has influenced your title and [00:34:00] in influenced you to write this book can be, share a little bit more about what you're aiming to do. Kazu Haga: Yeah, and you know, it's also Greenland and Cuba and Colombia and Panama, and it's also the climate crisis and it's also all of these other authoritarian regimes that are rising to power around the co, around the world. And it's also pandemics and the next pandemics. And we are living in a time of the poly crisis. A time that our recent ancestor, Joanna Macy calls the great turning or the great unraveling so we can get to the great turning where all of these systems are in a state of collapse and the things that we have come to, to be able to rely on are all unraveling. And I think if we are not grounded in. Again, I use this word spirituality very broadly speaking, but if we are not grounded in a sense that we are connected to something so much larger than ourselves as individuals, I think it's so easy to just collapse and get into this trauma response state in response to all of the crises that we are facing, and so fierce vulnerability. It's at the intersection of spiritual practice, trauma healing, and nonviolent action, and understanding that in response to all of these crises that we are facing, we need powerful forms of action. To harness the power necessary to create the transformations that we need to see. And at the same time, can we see even forms of nonviolent resistance as a form of, as a modality of collective trauma healing? And what are the practices that we need to be doing internally within our own movements to stay grounded enough to remember that we are interdependent with all people and with all life. What does it take for us to be so deeply grounded that even as we face a possible mass extinction event that we can remember to breathe and that we can remember that we are trying to create beauty, not just to destroy what we don't like, but we are trying to affirm life. What does that look like? And so if fierce vulnerability is an experiment, like we don't have all the answers, but if I could just put in a plug, we're about to launch this three month. Experiment called the Fierce Vulnerability Kinship Lab, where we'll be gathering across the world. Participants will be placed in small teams, that are regionally based, so you can meet with people in person, hopefully, and to really try to run a bunch of experiments of what is it gonna take to respond to state violence, to respond to these crises in a way that continues to affirm life and reminds us that we belong to each other. Miko Lee: That sounds amazingly powerful. Can you share how people can get involved in these labs? Kazu Haga: People can check it out on my website, kazu haga.com, and it'll link to the actual website, which is convene.community. It's K-I-N-V-E-N-E. It's a combination of the idea of kinship and community. It's gonna be a really cool program. We just announced it publicly and France Weller and Ma Muse and Kairo Jewel Lingo, and it's gonna be a lot of great teach. And we're trying to just give people, I know so many people are yearning for a way to respond to state violence in a way that feels deeply aligned with their most sacred beliefs and their value systems around interdependence, and peacemaking and reconciliation, but also recognizes that we need to harness power that we need to. Step out of the comfort of our meditation cushions and yoga centers and actually hit the streets. But to do so in a way that brings about healing. It's our way of creating some communities where we can experiment with that in supportive ways. Miko Lee: What is giving you hope these days? Kazu Haga: My daughter and the community that I live in. Like when I look up at the world, things are in a state of collapse. Like when I watch the news, there's a lot of things that are happening that can take away my hope. But I think if we stop looking up all the time and just start looking around, if I start looking around in, not at the vertical plane, but at the horizontal plane, what I see are so many. Amazing communities that are being birthed, land-based communities, mutual aid networks, communities, where people are living together in relationship and trying to recreate village like structures. There are so many incredible, like healing collaboratives. And even the ways that we have brought song culture and spirit back into social movement spaces more and more in the last 10, 15 years, there are so many things that are happening that are giving birth to new life sustaining systems. We're so used to thinking that because the crisis is so big, the response that we need is equally big. When we're looking for like big things, we're not seeing movements with millions of millions of people into the in, in the streets. We're not seeing a new nonprofit organizations with billions of dollars that have the capacity to transform the world because I think we keep looking for big in response to big. But I think if we look at a lot of wisdom traditions, particularly Eastern Traditions, Daoism and things like that, they'll tell us that. Perhaps the best way to respond to the bigness of the crises of our times is to stay small. And so if we look for small signs of new life, new systems, new ways of being in relationship to each other and to the earth, I think we see signs of that all over the place. You know, small spiritual communities that are starting up. And so I see so much of that in my life, and I'm really blessed to be surrounded by a lot of that. Miko Lee: I really appreciate how you walk the walk and talk, the talk in terms of teaching and living in a collective space and even how you live your life in terms of speaking engagements and things. Can you share a little bit about the gift economy that you practice and what's that about? Share with our audience what that even means. Kazu Haga: Yeah. I love this question. Thank you. So the gift economy to me is our attempts at building economic structures that learn from how natural ecosystems share and distribute its resources, right? It's an alternative model to the market system of economics where everything is transac. If you look out into nature, nothing is transactional. Right? All of the gifts that a mycelial network gives to the forest, that it's a part of the ecology that it's a part of. It's given freely, but it's also given freely because it knows that it is part of a deeply interdependent ecosystem where it will also receive everything it needs to be nourished. And so there's a lot that I can say about that. I actually working on, my next book will be on the Gift Economy. But one of the main manifestations of that is all of the work that I do, I try to offer as a gift. So I don't charge anything for the work that I do. The workshops that I organize, you know, the Convene three month program that I told you about, it's a three month long program with world renowned leaders and we are asking people to pay a $25 registration fee that'll support the platform that, that we're building, the program on. And. There's no kind of set fee for the teachers, myself, Francis Weller, mam, all these people. And people have an opportunity to give back to the ecosystem if they feel called and if they're able to try to sustain, to help sustain our work. But we really want to be able to offer this as a gift. And I think in the market economy, a three month virtual training with well-known teachers for $25 is unheard of. Of course $25 doesn't sustain me. It doesn't sustain all of the teachers that are gonna be part of this, but I have so much faith that if we give our work freely and have faith that we are doing the work that we're meant to be doing, that the universe will come together to sustain us. And so I am sustained with the generosity of a lot of [00:42:00] people, a lot of donors, a lot of people who come to my workshop and feel called to give, not out of a sense of obligation, but because they want to support me in my work. Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing and I was so impressed on your website where you break down your family's whole annual budget and everything that you spent funds on. Everybody talks about transparency, but nobody really does it. But you're actually doing it. And for reals, just showing something that's an antidote to the capitalist system to be able to say, okay, this is us. This is our family, this is how we travel, this is what we do, and. I found it really charming and impressive in our, it's hard to rebel against a system where everything has been built up so that we're supposed to act a certain way. So appreciate you. Absolutely. Yeah. Showing some alternatives and I didn't know that's gonna be your next book. So exciting. Kazu Haga: Yeah, I just started it. I'm really grateful that I have a partner that is okay with sharing all of our family's finances transparently. That helps because it is a big thing, you know? Yeah. But one of the things that I really learned. But the gift economy is that if there isn't information, if there isn't transparency about what the system's needs are, then it becomes dependent on every individual to figure out. How much they want to give to that system. And I think the gift economy is trying to break outta that the model of individualism and understand that we are interdependent and we live in this rich ecosystem of interdependence. And so if people's needs aren't transparent, then it's hard for people to figure out how they want to engage in that relationship. Miko Lee: Can you share a little bit more the example of Buddhist monks and how they have the basket and. Share that story a bit for our audience. Kazu Haga: Yeah. So historically, in a lot of, particularly south and southeastern, Asian countries, Buddhist monks, they go around, they walk their community every morning, begging, quote unquote for alms. They ask for donations, and the people in that village in that town will offer them bread or rice or whatever it is. That's kind of the food that, that monks and monastics eat. And so if a Buddhist monk is walking around with a bowl and you see that their bowl is already full, you have a sense, oh, this monastic might not need any more food, but the next monastic that comes along might. And so it's this transparent way of saying, oh, this person's needs are met, so let me hold on to the one piece of bread that I have that I can donate today and see if the next person will need it. And so in that way. If I share my finance transparently, you know, if my financial needs for the month or for the quarter are met, then maybe people who attend my workshops will feel like, oh, I don't have a lot of money to give. Maybe I don't need to give to support Kazu Haga, but maybe I can support, the facilitator for the next workshop that I attend. And so, in that way, I'm hoping that me being transparent about where my finances are will help people gauge how they want to be in relationship with me. Miko Lee: Thank you. I appreciate it. You talk a lot about in your work about ancestral technology or the wisdom, our ancestral wisdoms and how powerful that is. It made me think about the day after the election when Trump was elected. I happened to be in this gathering of progressive artists in the Bay Area and everybody was. Incredibly depressed. There was even, should we cancel that day or not? But we pulled together, it was at the Parkway Theater in Oakland and there was an aone leader and she talked about the eighth fire and how we are in the time of the eighth fire and you write about the fires in your book, and I'm wondering if you can talk about the seven fires and the prophecy belt. Kazu Haga: Yeah. So through a strange course of events, I had the incredible privilege early on in my life when I was in my early teens, 11, 12, 13, 14 years old, to spend every summer going to the Algonquin Reservation, Anishnabe Nation, way up in Northern Quebec, and spend my evenings sleeping in the basement of Chief William Commander, who was the holder of the seven Fire Prophecies Wampum Belt. This is a prophecy that told the story of the seventh fire that we are in the time of the seventh fire. And this is a moment in the history of our species where we can remember what it means to be human and to go backwards and to reclaim our spiritual path. If we are able to do that, then we can rebuild a new world, the eighth fire and build a world of lasting peace. But if we are unable to do that and continue down this material journey, that will lead to a world of destruction. And this is, prophecies like this one and similar indigenous prophecies that speak the same exact things are the things that were. Just surrounded, that I was surrounded by when I was younger, and I'm so grateful that even though I didn't really believe this kind of stuff when I was younger, it was like the, you know, crazy hippie newey stuff that my mom was into. I'm so grateful to have been surrounded by these teachings and hearing these teachings directly from the elders whose lives purpose. It was to share these teachings with us because when I look out at the world now, it really feels like we are in a choice point as a species. Like we can continue to walk down one journey, one path, and I could very easily see how it would lead to a world of destruction. But we have an opportunity to remember who we are and how we're meant to live in relationship with each other and to the earth. And I have a lot of faith that if we're able to do that, we can build such a beautiful future for our children. And so I think this is the moment that we're in. Miko Lee: Yeah. Thank you so much. Can you share a little bit about your mom? It seems like she was a rule breaker and she introduced you to so many things and you're appreciating it later as an adult, but at the time you're like, what is this? Kazu Haga: Yeah. You know, she was. She grew up in Japan. We were all born in Japan, but she spent a year overseas in the United States as ex as an exchange student in high school. And she always tells me when she went back to Japan, she was listening to the Beatles, and she shaved her legs and she was this like rebellious person in Japan. But yeah, my mom is never been a political activist in the same way that, that I've become. But she's always been deeply, deeply grounded in spiritual practice. Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. Kazu Haga: And for various reasons have always had deep relationships with indigenous elders in North America and Turtle Island. And so I'm always grateful. I feel like she sowed a lot of seeds that when I was young, I made fun of meditation and I was not into spiritual practice at all. 45 years into my life, I find myself doing all the same things that, that she was doing when I was young, and really seeing that as the foundation of the work that I do in the world today. Miko Lee: And have you, have you talked with her about this? Kazu Haga: Oh yeah. I live with her, so we regularly Oh, I Miko Lee: didn't realize Kazu Haga: that.Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's read the book and Yeah. We have a lot of opportunities to, to yeah, just talk and, and reminisce and, and wonder at. How life has a tendency to always come back full circle. Miko Lee: Mm. The paths we lead and how they intertwine in some ways. Definitely. Mm, I love that. I let you know before we went on air is that I'm also interviewing the author Chanel Miller in this episode. You shared with me that you are familiar with her work. Can you talk about that? Kazu Haga: Yeah, so, you know, I talk quite a bit in both of my books about how one of the great privileges that I have is to do restorative justice and trauma healing work with incarcerated people, mostly through the prisons in California. And one of the programs that I've had the privilege to be a part of is with the Ahimsa Collective, where we work with a lot of men who have an experience with sexual violence specifically, both as survivors of sexual harm and as perpetrators oftentimes. And in that program we actually used the letter that she wrote and published as an example of the power of what it could mean to be a survivor speaking their truth. And we used to read this letter in the groups with incarcerated people. And I remember the first time I ever read it, I was the one that was reading it out loud. I broke down into tears reading that, that letter, and it was so powerful. And it's one of those written statements that I think has helped a lot of people, incarcerated people, and survivors, oftentimes, they're both the same people, really heal from the scars that they've experienced in life. So yeah, I have a really deep connection to specifically that statement and her work. Miko Lee: Yeah, it's really powerful. I'm wondering, given that how you use art as a tool to heal for yourself. Kazu Haga: You know, I always wished I was a better poet or a better painter or something like that, but I do really feel like there are certain deep truths that cannot be expressed in just regular linear language. It can only be spoken in song or in dance or in poetry. There's something mystical. There's something that, that is beyond the intellect capacity to understand that I think can be powerfully and beautifully expressed through art. I think art and spiritual practice and prayer and things like that are very like closely aligned. And so in that way I, I try to touch the sacred, I try to touch spirit. I try to touch mystery in the things that I can't quite articulate. Just through conversation and giving in a lecture or a PowerPoint presentation, to, yeah, to touch into something more, more important. Miko Lee: And is your spiritual practice built into your every day? Kazu Haga: To the extent possible. One of the traditions that I have really learned a lot from and love is the Plum Village tradition founded by Thich Nhat Hanh. And they're so good at really reminding us that when we wash our dishes, that can be a spiritual practice, right? I'm the father of a young child. And so it's hard to actually sit down and meditate and to find time for that. And so, how can I use. My moments with my daughter when I'm reading her a book as a spiritual practice, how can I, use the time that I'm picking up the toys that's thrown all around the house as spiritual practice. So in that way, I really try to incorporate that sort of awareness and that reminder that I belong to something larger and everything that we do. Miko Lee: After hearing Ty speak one time, I tried to practice the chewing your food 45 times. I could not do it. Like, how does he do Kazu Haga: that? Some food is easier than others. If you eat oatmeal, it's a little harder, but Miko Lee: like that is some kind of practice I cannot do. Kazu Haga: But, you know, I have, a meditation teacher that years ago taught me every time you get inside your car. The moment that you turn the keys and turn on the ignition in your car, just take that moment and see if you can notice the texture of the keys and see if you can really feel your muscles turning to turn the key. And it's in these little moments that if we bring that intention to it, we can really turn what is like a, you know, a mindless moment into something with deep, deep awareness. Hmm. Miko Lee: Thank you for that. That's an interesting one. I have not heard that one before. Kazu Haga: Nowadays I just like push a button so it's even more mind less. Miko Lee: That's right. There's just a button Now. Keys, there's not even the time anymore to do that. That's right. What is it that you'd love folks to walk away with from being familiar with your work? You, there's so many aspects. You have different books that are out, you lead workshops, you're speaking, you are everyday walking through the world, sharing different things. What is one thing you'd love people to understand? Kazu Haga: Between both of my books and all the work that I do, so much of the essence is to try to help us remember. We belong to each other. I think the fear of isolation, the fear that we do not belong, is one of the most common fears that every human being has. Right? At some point in our lives, we felt like we don't belong. And while that is such a real fear, it's also a delusion. Like in an interdependent world, there is nothing outside of belonging, right? And so we already belong. We are already whole, we are already part of the vastness of the cosmos. There is so much power in remembering that we are part of the infinite universe, and I think the delusion that we do not belong to each other is like is the seed that creates the us versus them worldview, and it's that us versus them worldview that is at the heart of what is destroying our planet. In our efforts to create social change, how can we do so in a way that reminds us that even the people that are causing harm is a deeply critical interwoven web of relationships. That we are all in this web of relationship, that there's nobody outside of that, and how can we go about trying to create change in a way that reminds us of that? Miko Lee: Thank you. And my last question is, I'm wondering if there's something that you're learning from your child these days. Kazu Haga: Yeah, the, just the, the pure presence, right? That each moment is so deeply, deeply real, and each moment is to be honored. Like I am amazed at, we were eating asparagus the other day, and she was eating a whole bowl of asparagus, and she desperately needed me to get her the one piece of asparagus that she wanted. She was so frustrated that I couldn't find the one asparagus that she wanted, and so she was crying and screaming and throwing asparagus across the room, and then the moment I was able to find the one asparagus that she wanted, everything is fine. Everything is beautiful. She's smiling, she's laughing, and so just to. Not that we should be like throwing things around if we're not getting exactly what we want, but how can we honor our emotions every moment in a way that in that moment there is nothing outside of that moment. That sort of presence, is something that I really try to embody and try to learn from her. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing with me. I really appreciate reading your books and being in community with you and, we'll put links to your website so that people Awesome. Thank you. Can find out more. And also, I really appreciate that you're having your books published by a small Buddhist press as and encouraging people to buy from that. Kazu Haga: Yeah. Shout out to ax. Miko Lee: Yes, we will absolutely put those links in our show notes. And thank you so much for joining us on Apex Today. Kazu Haga: Thank you so much for having me. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining me on this evening conversation with two different authors, Chanel Miller and Kazu Haga, and my little pitch is just to keep reading. Reading is such a critical and important way we learn about the world. I was just reading this thing that said the average Americans read 12 to 13 books a year. And when I checked in with friends and family, they said that could not be true. That they think they know many people who don't read any books. And I am just encouraging you all to pick up a book, especially by an Asian American Pacific Islander author, hear our perspectives, hear our stories. This is how we expand and understand our knowledge around the world. Grow closer to the people in both our lives and people around the world. So yea to reading, yea to Chanel Miller and Kazu Haga. And check out a local bookstore near you. If you wanna find out more information, please check out our website, kpfa.org, black slash programs, apex Express, where I will link both of these authors and how you can purchase their books at your local independent bookstore. Thank you very much. Goodnight. Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Nina Phillips, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam Tonight's show was produced by me, your host, Miko Lee. Thank you so much for joining us. The post APEX Express – 1.15.26 – Chat with Authors appeared first on KPFA.

Nick is bringing you the podcast this week from the Gold Coast for Magic Millions, the racing, sales and entertainment extravaganza that is the envy of the racing world. On today's show, Nick talks to MM ambassadors Mike Tindall and Ally Mosley, Widden Stud owner and leading consignor Anthony Thompson, Coolmore's Tom Magnier, and agents Sam Haggas and James Harron. Plus, Jane Mangan joins the show to have her say about the McManus/Cobden tie up, the creation of a 40k Flat race for Constitution Hill, and goings on at HRI. This week's Weatherbys Guest is Capital Stud Proprietor Ger O'Neill.

In this episode, Diana's special guest Jake Doberenz, founder of Theophany Media and host of the Creatively Christian podcast, shares his expertise on effective Bible study. The discussion covers essential principles of biblical interpretation, the importance of studying scripture in community, and approaches to understanding difficult passages. Listeners are also guided on selecting appropriate Bible translations and utilizing various online resources, ensuring a comprehensive and balanced approach to scripture study. The episode concludes with a prayer for listeners' spiritual journey and their engagement with the scriptures. Bio: Jake Doberenz isn't one thing. He identifies as a polymath, a Renaissance man, or a multipotentialite–one interest or specialty can't contain him. But enough of the third-person. I am a writer, speaker, minister, and creative thinker living in Oklahoma City, OK with my wife Samantha. My most significant role is the founder and president of Theophany Media, a Christian education company dedicated to helping Christians engage with culture through new media. I have earned my Master of Theological Studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my Bachelor's degree in Bible with a minor in Communication Studies. I also worked at my alma mater as a Resident Director and Bible TA. I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums, like podcasts and video. My favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about (though always changing) include: creating Christian art, helping people understand the Bible better, Christian identity, theology of social media, use of humor in faith messages, superheroes and theology, and a Christian response to culture. If you want to see his progress, achievements, and appearances sign up for the newsletter so you'll never miss an update! website: Home – Jake Doberenz 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:44 Introducing the Guest: Jake Doberenz 02:43 Jake's Background and Interests 05:56 Jake's Teaching Journey 10:46 Bible Study for Abuse Survivors 13:25 Choosing the Right Bible Translation 18:42 Understanding the Bible Without Knowing Greek or Hebrew 21:34 Basic Rules of Bible Interpretation 25:43 Embracing Uncomfortable Bible Stories 26:47 Using Jesus as a Lens for Interpretation 30:54 The Importance of Community in Bible Study 34:14 Red Flags in Spiritual Leadership 37:02 Recommended Bible Study Resources 41:33 Exploring Different Perspectives 44:58 Connecting with the Speaker 46:29 Closing Prayer and Final Thoughts   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/ Jake Doberenz [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hey there, everybody. Come on in, set for a spell. How are you guys doing? I appreciate your support in listening to the podcast, and I hope that you are enjoying some really encouraging words and practical things for you to do your own Bible study and read the word of God for yourself. We have a new guest on the show now I'm very familiar with his podcast, creatively Christian. I've been on his podcast. His show has a few different interviewers. And so [00:02:00] Andrea Sandifer, who you guys know that was on the show, she interviewed me on her show. And our guest today, Jake Doberenz, the man behind that podcast, he is a funny guy. He likes to bring humor from the Bible. And I've been reading his blog and following his newsletters. And his Facebook group. So I thought he would be a great addition to the podcast , and I think you're gonna love him. I'm gonna tell you a little bit about him. He has a lot of interest here, so here we go. Jake, Doberenz isn't one thing. He identifies as a polymath, a renaissance man or a multipotentialite. One interest or specialty, can't contain him. So he [00:03:00] says of himself, but enough of the third person. I'm a writer, speaker, minister, and creative thinker, living in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. My most significant role is the founder and president of Theophany Media. A Christian education company dedicated to helping Christians engage with culture through new media. I have earned my Master of Theological studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my bachelor's degree in Bible with a minor in communication studies. I also worked at my alma matter as a resident director and bible ta. I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and [00:04:00] devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums like podcasts and video, my favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about. Although always changing, include creating Christian art, helping people understand the Bible better. Christian identity, theology of social media, use of humor in faith messages, super heroes and theology, any Christian response to culture. So this is gonna be awesome. So I hope that you enjoy my conversation with Jake Doberenz. Please welcome to the show, Jake Doberenz. Thanks for coming on today. Sure thing, anytime. I'm glad to be here. I really enjoyed being on your [00:05:00] podcast, A creatively Christian, and Andrea interviewed me and then she was on my podcast and I follow your Facebook group and get your. Very humorous email newsletter. And so I thought you were the perfect fit to come on to the podcast. And you're a bible geek like me, and you have a different perspective on life. In the Bible, you find humor in the Bible, which a lot of people don't find the Bible very funny. So welcome to the show. Yeah, I'm glad to be here providing some humor and quite possibly even some wisdom and intelligent comments. We'll see if we get to that part. So you haven't been on the podcast before, so. Tell the folks a little bit about yourself and your family. Okay? Yeah. Always a fun question because where do you [00:06:00] start? Where do you end? But yeah. I am in Oklahoma City right now. I'm an Oregon native and got stuck in Oklahoma. Stuck sounds too negative, but I got planted here. That sounds better. I got my bachelor's degree in biblical studies with a minor in communication studies. I have a Master's of Theological studies and for a while I was kind of going down the Bible professor route. That was gonna be my thing. And it's not like completely off the table right now, but it is not my chief kind of path anymore because there are not a lot of jobs in that area and there's a lot of different things there that make it quite challenging. A lot of schooling, a lot of debt for maybe not so much reward, but we'll see what the future brings. I am still flexing my desires to write and teach. That has always been what I wanted to do, even when the subject changed, even when it [00:07:00] was cat psychology or whatever, I always wanted to write and teach and so I'm still doing that in in different ways. I'm certainly still using my degrees, even though I'll be going into teaching middle school geography this year. Ooh, kind of a new adventure. Add some more skills and weird things on my resume. That's kind of how I do it. So geography. Cool. I think that's me. Yeah. Yeah. That's very brave. Middle school, that particular age, did you pick the age group you were teaching or did they just kind of throw you in there? I applied to high school and middle school. I wasn't going to do anybody under middle school and the high school jobs never called me back. And the, I got some different offerings on the middle school side of thing, so I said, okay, that's what you want me to do. God, I will walk into this wilderness. And then they gave me some kind of choices between, and I chose sixth grade specifically, so I'll be with, with sixth graders. [00:08:00] They, uh, we still have some childlike heart and wonder. They're not so jaded like they get when they're a little older, but they're just mature enough where you can start to get a little more serious. So good age. Hmm. I liked sixth grade. It was a good year. We'll be praying for you either way, because that's a lot of work and mm-hmm. But geography's cool. I like Bible geography. Ever since I went to Israel in 2019. How different reading the Bible is when you've been to those places. Have you been to Israel? I haven't. No, I haven't. Yeah. If you're into geography, you would really love going to Israel for obvious reasons, of course, but geography, it just makes the Bible come alive when you've been to the place where Jesus put legion into the herd of pigs and over the cliff. Sure. And I've been to that cliff, and so you can see it now in your head. It's awesome. Or you've been on the Sea of [00:09:00] Galilee and you can actually imagine Jesus walking on the water and because been in the boat. So, yeah, I'm just getting into being interested in geography right now. There you go. Yeah. Cool. What would you say is your particular specialty as far as Bible goes? Yeah. I did my master's thesis on Paul's view of spiritual formation, specifically from one Corinthians chapter three, verse three. Four, just around there. So that's a very specific kind of thing. Most of my training has actually been more on the New Testament side. Specifically Paul, I've done a lot of more academic work with the use of children as a metaphor in the Bible. I've done work with that in both Paul and the Gospels. Sexuality in the New Testament has been something I've kind of explored. [00:10:00] Nowadays though, I have more of theological interests and I'm asking some different kinds of questions. You don't divorce theology from the Bible, but they're just different kinds of questions and different kinds of, and ways and sources for that. But in terms of Bible, yeah, a lot of studying Paul and a lot of thinking about sort of how he makes arguments and specifically like in that thesis, it was all about how he used this metaphor about. Being an infant in Christ, what does all that mean? And how does that reflect how we grow as people? And so I've gone down those kind of rabbit trails a lot my my day. That's really interesting. A Paul's usually a favorite Bible character. Most people, though you can, you never go wrong with the Apostle Paul now. So today we're talking about Bible study for abuse survivors. And reason why we're doing this is because when we've gone through abuse, usually there's some spiritual [00:11:00] abuse involved and we want to distance ourself from God because we've experienced that spiritual abuse and that affects our relationship with God. And a lot of people once they leave or get out of the abuse. Then they're like, okay, I don't wanna read the Bible, I don't wanna pray, and I don't wanna go to church anymore. I don't trust anybody. But I'm trying to encourage on this podcast to come and if you have questions, let's talk about the questions. So, so I've kind of answered my own question, why should we study the Bible for ourselves? But what would you say to that or add to that? Yeah, I think what I would add to that is that, um, one thing that our teachers or pastors or scholars don't have is that they're not you. You are yourself and you come with your experiences and you come [00:12:00] with your own personality and identity, and you are gonna often pick up things that other people might miss, or you're gonna just sort of focus on things more realize as a thread of a theme or something like that. We, we shouldn't come to the Bible biased necessarily, or with too many preconceived notions. 'cause then the text starts to say what we want it to say. That's not what I'm saying. But we do bring ourselves to the text and we have to admit that like, I'm not reading this in a vacuum. I'm reading this because of who I am and what I've experienced and all these things like that. And I think that's really powerful. And I think the Bible is, it's strong enough to take it. Like it's not about pulling whatever meaning you want from it, like I said, but it is about seeing things that are hidden in this multi-layered onion like text here that has so much stuff in it that we can't expect. Even a really smart [00:13:00] guy to just know everything. So yeah, we gotta study the Bible for ourselves. We gotta do our own digging and our own reading. See what we can find. Yeah, I like that answer. Bringing yourself to the table that's. Different than what somebody else would bring to the table. So let's start with something everybody asks about. When it comes to Bible study, you go to the bookstore and you're trying to pick out a Bible, and there's a gazillion different Bible versions out there, and too many versions, in my opinion. Which one do I pick? Does it matter? At the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter. There are those that are better than others, and I'm the term better here. You can use that in different ways. I'm using the term better as in. More accurate to the text, although, hey, we are translating language here. [00:14:00] Translation is an art, not a science, which makes us a little uncomfortable. We can still get that meaning across. You're a, you're an artist and you're a creative. You can still communicate accurately and faithfully even through a song or something like that. And so in the same way, translation is a little bit of an art form and there are people that have to choose certain words, and I think this means that. So yeah, there are some that are more quote unquote scholarly and others that are more paraphrased, like the message, or it's something like the amplified Bible that is just trying to sort of squeeze some more possible meaning out there by becoming like glorified the Sorut. So you got some different options. Most readings are probably not gonna hurt you, at least. As long as you understand like kind of what's going on here. I know in the past the King James has had the word unicorns in it and that that threw some people off and then later we're like, actually we should have translated that. Like Gazelle was not supposed to be translated unicorn. So [00:15:00] okay, we can get some things here that might throw some people off, but as long as we kind of give some grace to the translators, something like the King James is older and we have some different data. We have some older manuscripts that we're pulling from now. So yeah, it's gonna be a little bit more closer to what the originals were saying kind of thing. So yeah, there are those considerations, but I don't think you're gonna make or break your faith if you read the ESV over the NRSV or something like that. Yeah, well I came from a camp that, uh, they were very definitive in what Bible you should read and which ones you should not read and Sure. And they were very dogmatic in that I've changed my stance since then. Because I've actually dug into that sort of thing that okay, you, so you're saying that most of the mainline translations out there, we will still get the main [00:16:00] point of what Bio was trying to say. Right. Yeah, I don't know any that are too left field and crazy or something like that. There are versions, like, I could be wrong about this, but I think the Jehovah's Witness has versions of the Bible that seem to play a little fast and loose with some things and have cut out some different stuff. So obviously I wouldn't necessarily recommend that for Christians. The only other thing I would say is make sure a bunch of different people were involved. Most translations are. Large groups of people. And then you have things like I mentioned the message that Eugene Peterson did, it was just him, but he wasn't necessarily trying to make a definitive thing. That's more of a paraphrase translation, which is like a devotional rather than something to study. So there are just different uses for all these different things. There are, I could go into the weeds. My dad used to own a Christian bookstore. Oh. And so you have your thought for thought translations and then you have your word for word. And [00:17:00] some people think word for word is better because it's more accurate. But the thing, the problem is the Bible might literally say X, but when we translate that word to today, it makes no sense because language is weird like that. And then so the thought for thought is going to be more of an interpretation, but they're trying to say, okay, but what this is trying to say is this and, and here's a thought that you can digest and that makes sense to you. So it's just kind of what you want, but thanks to the internet. In fact, on another screen here, I have pulled up Bible gateway.com. That's what I use a lot. You can look through all sorts of different translations and compare and contrast. If I really wanted to study with more than one, it's legal in most states, so go for it. It's funny you mentioned the message because that was my first Bible when I got saved. My okay friend that I met in high school, I told her I had gotten saved and I didn't have a Bible, and she gave me the message, which [00:18:00] was her Bible, and I loved it. Oh yeah. I highlighted that thing and Oh yeah. And I just tore it up with underlining and I couldn't wait to read it. And then of course you get to Bible college and they tear it out of your hands, so yeah. But yeah, I like the ESV today. I have. A really nice archeology study Bible I bought and I've, I've read the King James most of my Christian life. And switching to another translation was really eye-opening. All this different stuff that I hadn't seen before just popped out, like I didn't know the Bible said that. Wow. It's pretty neat. So along the same lines, do we have to be a Greek and Hebrew scholar to understand the Bible? I hope not because I struggled through Greek and barely made that alive, and so languages are not my strong [00:19:00] suit. Uh, but I think the answer is of course, no. You don't have to be. It depends on what kind of study you're doing, and I probably should have mentioned that earlier, but there's a way to look at the Bible in an academic, scholarly way, and there are some Christians that. Think that's wrong or bad? I don't think it's bad. It's just one way to look at it. When I am in scholarship, when I'm writing this college paper, I am, I have to kind of slice and dice it and I'm doing a work that an atheist could do. It's that kind of work. But then there's another way to look at the Bible that is much more pastorally or for spiritual formation, the kind of thing that treats the text as sacred that an atheist can't do. So if you're doing the academic work, it really helps to know the words because you're trying to get as precise as possible and getting into there. But luckily for us, other people have done the work for us and we have these English translations, so woo. You don't need to know Hebrew and Coin a Greek and [00:20:00] a little bit of Aramic and like Daniel or whatever. Like we don't have to know that because somebody else has done the work for us. And I mentioned already like. There's a lot of people involved in a Bible translation, not just one guy. It's, a lot of people have done this work and they've argued and yelled at each other and come to some conclusions to say, this is the best we can do right now. This is what we got. So, yeah, we don't have to, we don't have to be language PS so, woo. Lucky. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm a language geek. I love languages. Personally, I speak two languages besides English, but I haven't taken any Greek or, or Hebrew, maybe someday, but they didn't cover that in my Bible college. But it's good that we already have the tools online that, hey, this is a translation for that word in. There's really no, no real argument about it is there along mainline denominations. Yeah. Most people probably aren't gonna tell you. You have to know all those languages unless somebody there. There are groups of people that would say [00:21:00] the only inspired text of the Bible is the actual original Greek and Hebrew. And so our English translations are not inspired. But that's a minority view. That's not super common. Yeah. Yeah. The most people can understand. The inspiration still comes through, even when it's translating different languages. The word of gods for the whole world, not just those that can speak actually dead languages that nobody speaks today like Latin. Yeah. So now we're gonna get into the nitty gritty here. Okay. When we are sitting down with our Bible and we're deciding to. Study a passage of scripture or maybe a book. What are some basic rules of interpretation? Now we use the fancy big word hermeneutics, but like the basic ones that you really shouldn't ignore in order to. Do a proper Bible study. This is one that gets definitely drilled [00:22:00] into in Bible school and in other contexts, but it's that actual, it's a word context like context is key. Context is king, and one of the best things we can do is zoom out. So if we're looking at a particular scripture. Like one verse, we zoom out to the chapter. Those headings or whatever aren't like God inspired or whatever, but they're helpful to kind of see what the flow of things are. Then we can zoom out to the book level and sometimes zoom out to the biblical level and things like that. But that is always key. Sometimes we get into trouble thinking that the Bible is just like, the whole thing is like Proverbs, where everything's just disconnected and you got these good one-liners and they're fun and they're good zingers, but most of it is some kind of story or, and Paul, I mentioned that being some of my background, Paul's letters are arguments they build on top of each other, and so you can see if we're trying to look at something wild like. One [00:23:00] Corinthians 14 or something, we can understand it because by just kind of going a little backwards and Oh, okay. So that's always really important. And a lot of times authors in the Bible will also tell us kind of their themes and tell us what they really want us to get across. The gospel of John, for instance, is written so that we may believe Luke talks about writing in a, an orderly account of things. So we have some of these statements that if we zoom out a little bit, oh, okay, we can make sense of this in light of that. And so different things like that. But we could go all day into the hermeneutics and then the other fancy word, X of Jesus and that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, a tool anybody can use is something I learned in elementary school when there was a hard word. It was called rat read around the text. Read around the text. Ooh, that's the acronym there. And that just helps us understand, wait, what is going on? What does Paul mean when he says this? Why is [00:24:00] this guy saying this in judges? Let's take a look. What else is going on here? So it's just a great tool that anybody can use be if they can just zoom out a little bit and read the rest of the Bible and the rest of the passage. Everybody gives a different answer to that question. Now, obviously when we read the Bible, we come upon these passages or some of the stories that are either difficult to understand or it's a topic that we don't wanna deal with. It's really hard to swallow. Like a lot of times it's the genocide passages, of course. Mm-hmm. And or similar things like that. What do we do when we encounter those passages? Yeah. There are also passages that are sometimes called, and the genocide fits into this, but passages called texts of terror. A lot of passages about different abuse situation, and [00:25:00] I won't go into all of those, but I'm sure a lot of us can come up with some things that mm-hmm. Can be triggering in the Bible that seem just really messed up and stuff like that. So I think what's important, first of all is we recognize the, the gut feeling, the awkwardness talk to the beginning about how I see humor in the Bible and I do, I think there are some things in the Bible that we should laugh at. It's actually hilarious. Tell us about what Jonah gets swallowed by a big fish. That's funny. You should be laughing. And it's hilarious that he wants this city destroyed and he's supposed to be a prophet of God and he's not doing his job description and stuff like that. So like. When it's funny, we should laugh and when it's not funny, when it's uncomfortable, we should be okay being uncomfortable. I, I remember when I did college ministry for a time, we talked about the story of, oh man, I can't remember if it's Eli, I think it's Elijah. [00:26:00] And when they make fun of him for being bald and he calls these, she bears to attack these 40 youths, and he, this kid would kid could not get over it. He's like, why is this in the Bible? This is ridiculous. And I just tried to help him. Yeah, let's feel that first. Let's feel that, oh boy, we got some emotions here. So step one, I think it's totally okay to feel those things and then we can do some digging. Again, it's that zooming out. Let's look at the context here. Let's look what's going on there. A lot of times I think some of these texts of terror or uncomfortable texts, um. Sometimes they're not as bad when we look at it through maybe a historical lens or something, but sometimes we can't just justify them really nice and neatly, like some of the stuff about genocide. So ultimately, I have to go back to Jesus because. Jesus is the ultimate expression of God. It is the best [00:27:00] lens into the divine that we've ever seen. It's through this person of Jesus. And so sometimes we got to use our Jesus magnifying glass and look over the scripture and say, that's awkward. I don't like that very much. This makes me, this triggers me. This is, uh, but we put Jesus over and say, but through Christ, we don't have to live like that. We can recognize that there. There are plenty of examples of what not to do in the Bible. Jesus calls us to a different way and Jesus shows us that some things that maybe people thought were really godly and divine at certain points were not. So at the end of the day when things make us uncomfortable, I say feel it. But then ultimately, let's just go back. What does Jesus say? And if Jesus words are kind of. Don't seem to jive with this other crazy stuff going on here. Let's just, let's follow Jesus over some of this, [00:28:00] this other uncomfortable things. Hmm. So it's probably not a satisfying answer, but that's kind of like the point, like we try too hard sometimes to wrap everything in a pretty bow, but sometimes we just can't. With the Bible, the Bible is complicated and that's what makes it powerful. It's not always so neat and tidy and doesn't always make you feel good. It is a like Christ. It is both human, fully human and fully divine. And in that there's some awkward tension. There are some, there are human emotions and human things that that bleed through the divine pages of scripture. I appreciate the honest answer and yeah, I think that was a great answer. It was just reading through the patriarchs and wow, you just wrap your head around how much they messed up. And that's not how God wanted us to live. That's just an example of God just lets [00:29:00] everybody see how these people messed up. But still, God used them in a mighty way. God still gave them grace and forgiveness and love and mercy. I was just on Twitter and that's a dangerous place is Christian Twitter. Oh my goodness. And there was a big thread about some people, they didn't believe that Jesus was the same God as the God of the Old Testament. They cut the line because they thought Jesus over here in the New Testament, his attribute seems so different than. The God of the Old Testament. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that was an interesting concept. That's how they dealt with those horrible stories. I'm just gonna just trust in Jesus and just believe in Jesus and throw everything else away. Yeah. That's a heresy in the second century that, um, yeah. You know, unfortunately haven't quite gotten rid of completely, but is that's what that's called still alive and, [00:30:00] yeah. Oh, that's what you call it. Okay. There's your little fun little historical theology trivia, but yeah, there's probably a word for it. But that goes into my next question is how do you study the Bible and read it and make sure that you're not slipping into some heretical teaching, because I personally know some people that they believe some stuff that's way off base that nobody else. And mainline Christianity believes in, but they're like quoting Bible verses and taking them outta context. How do we avoid going down that path? Yeah, yeah. I had a youth minister who used to joke that if you wanted to, he could justify kicking babies across the room from scripture. Like that was just his wild example because yeah, people can kind of justify the whole gambit of things. So I think now we talked about why it's important to study the Bible for yourself. [00:31:00] At the same time though, I think this living, breathing scripture. Is something that we must read through community. You can do your own work, do your own prep, but ultimately the Bible belongs to all of us. And so we need to read in community. And that can mean your pastors and teachers and your scholars. It can also mean your neighbor and your friend and your kids and your mom and your cousin from a couple states away. But it can also mean dead people, not like seance or whatever, but like, um-ing, you know, read these old preachers and read the church fathers and the church mothers and like, we got 2000 years of Christian history here. There's some wild stuff, but there's some good stuff too. So I say we read scripture in community and you come to your own conclusions. Don't just copy paste whatever Mr. X, Y, Z says, but. What do they [00:32:00] think? And when we start looking at, oh, Christians have kind of seemed to think this for a long time, probably a direction we should lean in. I don't know. I guess people could be wrong, but the way the spirit works I think is a lot of times through community. And it's a way to check, it's a checks and balance for ourselves. So I think that sometimes we can get a little, a little wild with our own interpretations, but we bring in other people. What do you think? Did you see this too? Is this accurate? Is this, does this fit in with historical context of first century Palestine? Or whatever kind of questions you want to ask community. So that's flesh and blood people, but that's also books and podcasts and all sorts of things. I just think we're made to be together. And honestly, when I studied Paul's view of spiritual formation for my thesis, I didn't get to dive into it too much, but what I kept coming across is spiritual formation is not a. You on your own [00:33:00] kind of thing. It is something that happens with people who are this great cloud of witnesses that is cheering you on and it's helping you out. So I think that's a great way to kind of check, check ourselves, and then of course, use your brain. Let's be logical here that scripture probably not actually talking about America because it was written 3000 years ago. I don't know. Thank you. Um, so, so stuff like that, we gotta use our brains. Yeah. I like when you talk about community, because I think, and I've seen this before people go off the rails, is that they're isolating themselves. Mm-hmm. They don't wanna go to church because they don't trust, they don't trust people that they've been hurt. But even if we can't drag ourselves to church just yet in our healing process, yeah. There are other ways to create community and checks and balances. So that's a really good point. We really don't want [00:34:00] to be that guy that started his own denomination on a couple bible verses. Yeah, we got plenty of denominations. I think we're set for a little bit, so let's just chill out for now. Yeah, that's crazy. So like if we're in a community, we're under our Bible teacher or a pastor or Sunday school class, what would be like a red flag that would put your antennas up? Hey, you may wanna check this out for this preacher teacher saying is not a good thing. Are there any like red flags that you would look for? I think arrogance is definitely a big red flag. Ooh, good one. And that is how you get into spiritual, spiritually abusive situations. Definitely. And what I mean by arrogance is people that are not willing to be corrected, not willing to admit the wrong, not willing to learn. I was privileged to have professors where I was getting my Bible degrees. People with [00:35:00] PhDs from the prestigious British universities who would listen to student comments and be like, that's really interesting. Or, heard it like that. Tell me more about that. And one of my Hebrew Bible professors spoke like nine languages. Most of those are dead ones. And still he's curious to know what these 20-year-old college students are thinking. Which is wild because he is way smarter than us. But he is. These guys were adopting this posture of, I can learn from anybody here. I want your perspective. And I could be wrong. We gotta have some things where we have a firm foundation and where we don't sway. We absolutely have to have those. There are some people these days that I think sort of lean too heavily into the wishy-washy. It depends on the day, what I'm feeling, cafeteria style Christianity. We can't do that. But we also can't go over here where it's, I figured it out when I was 30 years old, when I was 40 years old, and now I'm like, [00:36:00] done. I'm done learning. Got it right. I to be the only one to get it right. And that's how denominations start, right? Ooh, everybody else got it wrong all the time. Now I'm right. So that's dangerous. So let's learn from people who are themselves. Learners who are willing to be challenged and to ask questions and wanna know your take on things. I know from being in ministry settings that oftentimes I am the guy with the more Bible degrees than most people in the room. But then there'll be these 70-year-old church ladies who have lived this and they've been in the Bible their whole life. I can learn from them. Mm-hmm. They have something to say, even though they've never read the text in Greek. They have something to add to the conversation. Mm-hmm. So we need to be learners. I love that. That is so awesome and so very true. The Holy Spirit speaks to each of us individually and gives us different [00:37:00] lessons and we can share those lessons. Now, you as a scholarly person, you must have some favorite resources that you use to study the bible. Can you recommend some specific resources that are maybe easy to use? Yeah, there's a couple websites, Bible gateway, I mentioned that already. They have. Some free commentaries and bible encyclopedias and things kind of on the sidebar there. So as you're looking to scripture, you could glorify and study Bible or have access to chunks from different commentaries. And for a while, while I was doing some more preaching, I actually did the paid, there's a kind of a paid version that it was like five bucks a month or something really cheap like that. It just got access to more things so I can have the scripture here and then all my resources next to it. And that was handy. Bible hub.com is also another one. [00:38:00] Um, that one's especially good if you do wanna look at the language stuff, knowing that you're not a scholar, you can say, but what is that Greek word? And you can click on it and it will show you the definitions, show you other places in scripture it's used. You can kind of get a feel for that. So that's a really good one for people who are not, who don't know the languages or. Like me who always needed help with my Greek homework or something like that. So yeah, those come to mind. But man, like we are, we at our fingertips. There's a lot of good stuff out there. A lot of bad stuff, no doubt. But there are podcasts and all sorts of books and there's just, there's a lot of good stuff there. Wouldn't even know where to begin, just sort of thinking broadly. But I think Bible gateway, Bible hub, easy. Anybody can access those for free. And you don't necessarily need a giant library or really expensive commentary sets 'cause they're really expensive. Yeah. That's why my parents get me one commentary for my birthday and [00:39:00] for Christmas each year. And so in 50 years I'll have the full set or whatever. That's not true. That's, it'll actually probably be. I can't do the math however it takes to get 66 books. But anyway. Wow. All I had in bible college that we were allowed to have is Matthew Henry commentary, which is kind of on the dry side. Yeah. Most Bible professors would pass out hearing you say that. It's not bad stuff, but bad, but it's not, it's not easy to read it's thing, let's just say. Yeah. And we were allowed to read Weirs, BE'S books. It's a pretty good series about where I came from. John MacArthur's commentaries were like hearsay. Oh, okay. The Baptist didn't like the, at least the churches that I was in, they didn't like MacArthur's stuff, but, and I had the actual strong concordance. I still own that's, yeah, sure. So sort of a free way to get that, besides if you don't want to get a giant [00:40:00] volume. Yeah. I like to read the physical books too. Sure. Nothing, not knocking the physical. But yeah, if people are on a budget, yeah, people are on a budget and you can't go and buy those big, huge coffee table books. Or if you're near a Christian university, see if you can get a library card that's, they have tons of stuff. I can walk in there and there are a whole shelf of like Genesis commentaries or whatever. It could be information overload. But also I can, I'll pick up a couple different volumes of different perspectives and I'll read what they each have to say about the verse or chapter I'm dealing with and I can kind of synthesize a conclusion. And that's how you do it. Yeah. I'll also mention, I, we were allowed to. Listen on the radio, Jay Vernon McGee and yeah, he was definitely expository. He [00:41:00] would go verse by verse and go through the entire Bible verse by verse, which I thought was really good. And I don't agree with everything he said, but that's the way I learned a lot of stuff was through verse by verse radio program back in the day. Mm. I'm dating myself, aren't I? It's all good here. All good. No, we talked a lot about a bunch of different stuff. Is there anything about Bible study that we didn't talk about that you would like to mention? I know there's so much, uh, yeah, I just touched on it a little bit, but I kind of wanna bring it back. Look at different views than yours. If you are really charismatic, then look at something that's not quite charismatic, or if you are. I won't go. I'll skip all those differences. You know what? You are read some of the stuff that's a little different. Stuff that challenges you. That's how we grow. That's how we grow, [00:42:00] is to hear something a little different. And the thing is, you're not required to believe it. Right. You can just read it and at least know what they're saying. I know in my Christian upbringing, and not necessarily I was intentional, but I only knew my side of the argument. Or if I knew somebody else's argument, it was this straw man version that was just not accurate. And then I, you go to the big wide world and be like, oh wait, there are lots of different views. And those people are actually smart and they have things to say about this, but somebody else is the opposite and they're also a smart person. What's going on? It's just good to expose ourselves to different things. In most cases we could, we, you can choose your own boundaries and things like that. Mm-hmm. It doesn't mean if you're studying something in the Old Testament, you have to read the Jewish and the Muslim and the Mormon view of what. It doesn't mean you have to go there, but just check out some different things. Have your favorite commentaries. Do it, but every once in a while [00:43:00] peek into your, your local heretic and see what they have to say. I dunno, maybe not a heretic, somebody who's a little different. You, you, your istic. Yeah. Our last guest was talking about Calvinism and stuff, but yeah, doesn, excellent suggestion because I definitely was in my own camp for many years until I got out of my abusive situation and started looking into other views and I have since changed nothing major. I didn't change any major views, but I realized that okay, there are other Godly people. Now I see they can use scripture to defend their position too. And there's a little bit of wiggle room in there for sure. Sure. For different viewpoints. I went and did a study and looked at somebody else's view on a tertiary argument. Sure. Tertiary doctrine. It's not a doctrine of the faith, but [00:44:00] something that's very important and it's like, okay, I'm not gonna be judgmental. And that was hard for me to change my viewpoint. Yeah, yeah. But they gave me really great scriptural evidence. So yeah, that's kind of a sideline, but you made excellent point. But anyway, I appreciate you sharing all this valuable information and your view, viewpoint, and it's fascinating. Everybody has different answers for these questions. I've asked everybody the same questions. Right. And they're all giving me different answers, which I think that's very helpful. Oh yeah. Yeah. Very helpful. Yeah, getting people exposed to different things and again, like I am me and you are you, and we're different. And that's the point. Like we all come together with our different focuses and our different backgrounds and knowledge, and together we are the body of Christ. Amen. And that's beautiful. So tell the folks [00:45:00] how people can connect with you and you have resources and maybe if they wanna play stump the Bible teacher, they can email you. Yeah, you can find that all about me@jakedobern.com. D-O-B-E-R-E-N-Z as in zebra. And that's kind of my home base on the interwebs. If you do jake dovers.com/email, you can get on my email list that was mentioned earlier where I talk about. Funny stories from my life that have spiritual points, and I bring out spiritual points from that. And yeah, you can definitely contact me through social media or email, and that's all on my website there. So I'll let you track me down and tell me how wrong I am and all of that kind of stuff. That's fun. It comes with the territory, so totally okay with that. And then lastly, I do a bunch of work with Christian creatives, with Fiani [00:46:00] Media, and as was mentioned, I produce the Creatively Christian podcast. So I would love for you to check that out if that's kind of your thing, if that's your area. Yeah. You guys have a real great variety of guests on that show. It's not just one particular kind of art. You guys represent a lot of different ones, which is fun. Oh yeah. And we're trying to get more variety all the time. Awesome. Now. I don't usually have guests pray on the show, but would you pray for our listeners in their journey in the scriptures? Of course. Let's go ahead and pray. Heavenly God, we come to you in prayer on this podcast episode and we ask that whoever's listening now in the future, in a couple years, where wherever we are, that, that we can be receptive to how you speak to us through scripture and through our [00:47:00] communities that help us see scripture. Let the spirit guide us as we dive into this sacred but sometimes confusing and complicated documents. Lord, I ask that you give us the wisdom to be able to rightly divide your word and to remain faithful even when our own preferences might wanna lean in a different direction. Lord, thank you so much for the ministry of this podcast. We pray that people continue to have healing and continue to find themselves in a better place, both in the world and with you spiritually. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. God bless you. Sure thing. God bless you. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful [00:48:00] to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

In Episode 2 of Allegedly Sports, M|M and Coach Tom Schneider return for another wide-ranging conversation on football, media narratives, athlete accountability, and how sports culture continues to evolve. The episode opens with a deep dive into the NFL MVP race, where M|M makes the case for Drake Maye as the clear frontrunner over Josh Allen and Matthew Stafford. The two break down schedule strength, advanced quarterback metrics, deep-ball efficiency, and why MVP voting often becomes a battle between statistics, narrative, and the eye test. From there, the conversation shifts to the expanded College Football Playoff. M|M and Tom debate whether the 12-team format has improved or diluted the sport, using games like Indiana's shocking win over Alabama and Miami's upset of Ohio State as examples of how parity and coaching have reshaped college football. They also dive into Lane Kiffin's controversial departure from Ole Miss and whether a head coach should be allowed to leave during a playoff run — especially when recruiting and program identity are on the line. Later in the episode, the focus moves to combat sports, with a breakdown of the Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua fight. M|M and Tom discuss whether the bout proved the legitimacy of Jake Paul's boxing career or simply exposed the limits of a celebrity fighter when facing a true heavyweight. The conversation then turns serious with a look at Stefon Diggs and the growing tension between off-field controversies and on-field value. M|M and Tom explore how leagues decide when to step in, why stars often receive more leeway, and how public perception, evidence, and PR all shape league responses. The episode closes with a heated but thoughtful discussion about DK Metcalf's suspension after an altercation with a fan. M|M lays out why leaving the bench and engaging with a fan crosses a line, while Tom adds perspective on player conduct, emotional maturity, and why the league has to protect the integrity of the game — even when fans behave poorly. As always, the episode blends real analysis, strong opinions, and honest disagreement — staying true to what Allegedly Sports is all about. Topics Covered NFL MVP race: Drake Maye vs. Josh Allen vs. Matthew Stafford Why MVP is not a lifetime achievement award College Football Playoff expansion and early upsets Indiana's rise and Alabama's collapse Lane Kiffin, Ole Miss, and coaching power in college football Recruiting, program identity, and playoff chaos Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua and celebrity boxing Stefon Diggs and how off-field issues affect teams DK Metcalf's suspension and player-fan confrontations Accountability, league discipline, and emotional control

In Episode 3 of Allegedly Sports, M|M and Tom Schneider return to break down one of the most chaotic weeks across both college football and the NFL. From the College Football Playoff semifinals to NFL Wild Card weekend, the conversation blends sharp analysis, strong opinions, and real football perspective. The episode opens with Indiana's continued dominance in the College Football Playoff, including their convincing win over Oregon and what makes them the most complete and well-coached team in the country. M|M and Tom debate quarterback Fernando Mendoza's NFL future, his personality, and whether leadership style actually matters at the next level. The conversation expands into coaching pedigree, with the surprising statistic that nearly every remaining head coach in the playoff tree traces back to Nick Saban's coaching tree. They also dive into one of the most controversial moments of the playoff — the missed pass interference call that helped send Miami to the national championship. M|M and Tom debate officiating, game-deciding calls, and whether refs shy away from making big calls in big moments. From there, the focus shifts to the NFL Wild Card slate, including Carolina's upset potential, Bryce Young's strange career arc, and why momentum late in the season often matters more than regular-season records. They also break down Caleb Williams' evolution in Chicago, Ben Johnson's impact on his development, and why Justin Fields was never the long-term answer for the Bears. The episode closes with a broader look at NFL disappointments and expectations — including the Lions' post-Super Bowl collapse, coaching turnover, Jared Goff's ceiling, and why defense and experience still rule in the playoffs. M|M and Tom finish by making full Wild Card and playoff predictions, including bold picks for Jaguars, Steelers, Eagles, Patriots, and Rams as potential deep-run teams. As always, the conversation stays unfiltered, opinionated, and grounded in how the game is actually played. Topics Covered Indiana vs. Oregon and the College Football Playoff semifinals Fernando Mendoza, QB leadership, and NFL projection Nick Saban's coaching tree dominating the Final Four Miami's controversial win and missed pass interference Refereeing and high-leverage calls NFL Wild Card matchups and betting lines Bryce Young's resurgence and Carolina's momentum Caleb Williams, Ben Johnson, and scheme vs. improvisation Justin Fields vs. elite QB ceilings The Lions' collapse and coordinator departures Jared Goff and Detroit's Super Bowl window Playoff defense, experience, and team identity Full NFL Wild Card and playoff predictions

Key performance indicators (KPIs) are a powerful tool. They provide concrete numbers for your practice, showing what's working well, but also clear-cut areas for improvement. Tiff and Kristy break down how and where to use KPIs, plus interpretation, growth factors, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am back here with one of your favorites I know she's one of your favorites because we get some massive kudos and massive reviews and feedback on Miss Kristy and I've got her here today to pick her brain on a couple of different Topics and this one we are diving right in you guys I'm super excited for this topic and for what's to come Kristy you work really really really hard with your clients on   finding the metrics that are actually going to push their needle. And something that I think you key in very easily on is that missing, I said earlier, like a puzzle piece. And you're able to see the picture, the big picture, and then narrow it down into pieces that are going to move ⁓ incrementally, right? We always look for the things that are gonna, a small change that can make a massive difference. And you're really good at keying into those pieces. Now,   Earlier we were recording a podcast and we talking about this massive growth that a platinum client of yours had experienced this year. We're recording this in 2025. It'll release in 2026. So this year they had experienced this incredible growth. And we talked about some of the systems that they had used, handoffs and block scheduling and financial menus, all of the different things that you guys were able to implement lasers, kind of all the things.   DAT Kristy (01:02) Thank   The Dental A Team (01:16) But when it comes to, we can implement things and this I think is what happens when practices come to us. The practices come to us, Kristy, and they say, teach me systems, right? I need systems. We're like, gosh, you have systems. You just don't know if the systems are working or not, right? You wouldn't have gotten this far. You wouldn't be calling down on a team if there were no systems. So we just have to key in on the systems that you have and figure out why, if they are working or not and if they're not, why they're not working. Now, Kristy.   DAT Kristy (01:30) Thank   The Dental A Team (01:45) The word KPI or the acronym KPI, key performance indicators, I think can be daunting and confusing, very confusing. So help us to simplify today. How do you go about choosing the right KPIs? And what are some of your favorite overarching KPIs for practices to use?   DAT Kristy (02:06) Yeah. I love that you say that Tiff, because KPIs, you know me, I do love the numbers because the numbers don't lie, right? And they start to tell a story. They don't tell this whole story, but it lets us see what's working well and be able to celebrate with our teams, you know, what is going good. And it also lets us ⁓ dive into maybe areas where there's opportunity for sure.   And I always like to say there's lead and lag measures. And so I like to look at both, you know, to your point, probably my top ones, obviously everybody knows production, collection. ⁓ And I also like to say, don't get hung up just on percentages. Also look at the numbers too, right? It's both. And then also case acceptance.   dollars diagnosed, dollars accepted, and your percentage accepted. ⁓ And to that point, your re-care and even new patient numbers too.   The Dental A Team (03:14) I totally agree with you. I'd   love that you said don't pay attention just to the percentage. I think both are equally as important. And I think what you mean by that, I can surmise, is we'll take diagnosis for an example, something we talked about in the other podcast we recorded for your Platinum client was that they were able to increase their case acceptance, but you started tracking and looking at what their diagnosis amount was. So if we strictly look at, and I love this one because   I love when practices come in and they make it really easy for us and they're like, gosh, I have a really high case acceptance. have 87 % case acceptance, but my schedule isn't full. I'm not hitting production goals. And we're like, heck yeah, slam dunk, this one's easy. We're not diagnosing enough. So I think that's the differentiating space that you're talking about, the percentage versus the dollar amount, because we can have really high case acceptance of a small dollar amount. So if we're not looking at both of those simultaneously and seeing   are we diagnosing enough dollars to get to the production and collections that we want and then also getting the case acceptance? Is that what you're meaning there by that KPI? And how would you separate those KPIs for someone tracking them that's trying to maybe get to that next level of production?   DAT Kristy (04:29) Yeah, absolutely. That is exactly what I'm talking about because again, that percentage we can celebrate all day long. But if my goal is $100,000 a month and I'm getting 80 % case acceptance of $50,000 a month, obviously that's not enough to reach our goal. definitely looking at dollars diagnosed being at least three times what we want our goal to be. ⁓   we know we're more likely gonna hit our goal. Then we can start working on the percentage and capturing more of the percentage. But it's funny that you say that Tiff, because just the other day I was pointing out to a doctor, I'm like, look at this month, you had 46 % case acceptance, but this month you had 21%. But look at the dollar amount. I'd rather take that dollar amount all day long in the 21 % month than the 46 % month. So again,   The Dental A Team (05:24) Yeah.   DAT Kristy (05:25) then we can start focusing in on how do we capture more of it as long as we're diagnosing enough to get there.   The Dental A Team (05:33) Totally. And what do you use as your marker for the amount of ⁓ diagnosis that they need? So how much production should a practice be diagnosing per doctor in order to hit their goals?   DAT Kristy (05:44) Yeah, depending on what their goal is per month based on their overhead of the practice and you know other factors for growth, we want them to be diagnosing three times at least what that monthly dollar amount is that we want to hit.   The Dental A Team (06:01) Yeah, I totally agree. And that gives you the flexibility of case acceptance, right? So if we're diagnosing three times, because when we look at case acceptance also, there's two different, there's multiple KPIs within KPIs. And you guys, this is why it gets so daunting. And it can be overwhelming to try to find quote unquote, the right KPIs. Like just find KPIs, just start tracking KPIs, just start tracking key performance indicators, and then get more granular as you see, okay, great, this leads to the next one, because you're gonna try to capture too much.   and you're gonna get overwhelmed with the choices. I say that because case acceptance, just case acceptance alone has two variations of KPI. There's a one-to-one, did they schedule or not, right? So if they scheduled a filling but they had a crown diagnosed as well and they only scheduled the filling, that's 100 % because they scheduled something. Or our preferred method, a dollar for dollar.   If they were treatment planned $1,000 and they only scheduled $500, that's a 50 % case acceptance. So thank goodness I picked easy numbers this time. I'm usually really hard on myself there. But that's how the KPIs within that KPI work. So if you're at a 35 % case acceptance, but you're diagnosing three times the amount of your goal or four times and maybe you're a cosmetically driven practice, so your case acceptance is lower than a general.   DAT Kristy (07:02) You   The Dental A Team (07:22) bread and butter, then your case acceptance against your diagnosed is going to work to help fill that schedule. So I think that's a beautiful place to start, that diagnosis plus case acceptance, those go hand in hand. And then Kristy, I always go down, I kind of see it going, so you see the diagnosis, like how much are we diagnosing? Are we diagnosing enough? What percentage of that diagnosis are we getting accepted?   and do we have enough new patients to continue to support that diagnosis? You might see one month you have great stellar diagnosis because you had a massive amount of new patients, but that new patient number isn't consistent. So then next month your new patients drop, well so does your diagnosis, and your case acceptance probably does, because you're not feeling so hot either. You're like, what the heck is going on? You're spiraling, so is your case acceptance. So they all follow each other. So I kind of see that like.   diagnosis, case acceptance, then new patients. And on average, Kristy, what would you say a good KPI number for new patients is per full-time doctor?   DAT Kristy (08:28) Yeah, I say anywhere between 25 and 35 per full-time doctor for sure is a healthy metric.   The Dental A Team (08:35) Yeah, I totally agree, totally agree. And what other KPIs would you say, so think diagnosis, case acceptance, new patients, those are really, really easy to track numbers and those are definitely indicators of everything else. What are some other key performance indicators that you typically have offices start out with?   DAT Kristy (08:38) Thank   Yeah. The other one is your reappointment rate and even taking a look at how many patients are going inactive because surprise, surprise docs, a lot of times we're really happy about that new patient number, but then we see, there's equally that amount going out the back door because we haven't worked re-care. And so again, we can be very strategic and focus on the re-care. We can look at the patients that have outstanding treatment because like you said, Tiff,   it definitely directly affects the doctor's schedule when we're not getting those patients back in that have outstanding treatment. So that is one that I definitely would recommend looking at.   The Dental A Team (09:32) Absolutely.   Yeah, and that one, Kristy, I love your appointment, right? Because it gets the team involved too. It's very easy for the doctor, the owner, the office manager to think that all of these KPIs need to land on you and that you need to be the one tracking them. But those kind of smaller variable KPIs really get the team involved. And to that point as well, do think, I think doctors knowing their diagnosis is massive, but I treatment coordinators should be the ones that are tracking and reporting on that metric. And this is where   DAT Kristy (09:41) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (10:06) know, practices come in and they're like, I need to track these KPIs. And they're like, Kristy, can't fill out the scorecard. We're like, cool, you shouldn't be, that's okay. So taking that, you know, to back up, we use a scorecard with all of our clients that tracks a ton of metrics that are indicators of making your goal or not. And so what we like to do, Kristy, I know you do this really well too. ⁓ Also, I like to split it between what makes sense. So I like the person who is being held accountable to the result.   to be the one that's tracking that measurable and filling it in. And then we're all coming together and talking about the results, but we're really looking at, if I'm a treatment coordinator, I'm tracking the treatment case acceptance, which simultaneously tracks our diagnosed amount. So I'm tracking the diagnosis and the case acceptance. If I'm a scheduling coordinator, I'm tracking open hours and new patients, right? And probably attrition.   which is the patients going out. And Kristy, to your point, I actually had a practice the other day that was like, Tiff, we're doing really great on new patients, but my active patient count isn't changing enough to show those new patients. And I was like, that's your attrition. That's where they're going out the other side. And Kristy, that's where that reappointment rate comes in to play, right? And that reappointment rate then can go to a scheduling coordinator as well, but also can go to hygiene. And I know a lot of people,   DAT Kristy (11:29) Thank you.   The Dental A Team (11:31) struggle getting KPIs that are for the team. I think those are those areas. So I love that. What else do you dive into kind of on like a more granular space that can get that team involved that can help doctors and office managers see that it's not all on them?   DAT Kristy (11:42) Yeah.   ⁓ 100%. ⁓ Another area of metric. Well, let me go back to the reappointment rate. I think sometimes again, just like I was telling you on numbers and percentage, again, even in that, sometimes talking, hey, we saw 100 patients last week and eight didn't get reappointed. That's eight hours of hygiene in six months from now. And I don't know about you, but if I'm working full time, I don't want to cut a day out of my schedule. So sometimes   The Dental A Team (12:07) Yeah.   DAT Kristy (12:16) putting it in that perspective can make a huge difference. And ⁓ Tiff, another area that I love looking at is the AR. AR for patient AR and also insurance metrics and formulating ⁓ goals around that, know, what's healthy. And ideally we don't have more than one, one and a half times our monthly production sitting out there in AR.   The Dental A Team (12:25) Yeah.   Yeah, I love that point. That is a massive, massive space. so, Kristy, to take all of these things together, really, we're looking at are your KPIs actually driving your growth? So how would you kind of decipher within some of these KPIs we've talked about how the practices could see, are they actually driving my growth?   DAT Kristy (13:04) Yeah, looking over the year to year ⁓ metrics and tracking it for where they want to be. And one of the things that I think we're really good at, Tif, is doing the projections for the year and reverse engineering it. So then we have a guideline, if you will, to work toward not just the big year goal, but quarterly and monthly. And so same thing with my teams. I'm always looking at   You know, the month view, the week view and the day view. Chunk it down, make it easier. And again, if there's a gap, usually when you're looking at it in a week view, there's not much of ⁓ a change. It's usually doing one more thing, right? Adding one more thing to our schedule can make a huge difference.   The Dental A Team (13:53) Yeah, I totally agree. And Kristy, if a practice is going from, let's talk about the practice we spoke of already today. They're going from 2.8 ish to over 3 million. What were some good KPIs that you chose for that practice specifically to increase that production goal that year?   DAT Kristy (14:11) Yeah, capturing more case acceptance, for sure. Dollars. How can we capture more at one time? And again, I think the biggest thing TIFF to recognize is behind every one of those metrics is a system. And really, I look at it twofold. If the metric isn't where we want it, let's pull out the systems that we know can directly contribute to it. And I look at it like a recipe.   Probably a lot of people this time of year are baking, but I'll use the analogy and I do it with my clients. If we have a chocolate chip recipe, let's pull out the recipe. Are we still following it to a T? ⁓ And if not, why not? Maybe it's we substituted a cup of sugar for a cup of salt and we just need to get back to the real recipe. Or if we followed it to a T, maybe we need to find a new recipe and we'll develop it together to get the results we want.   The Dental A Team (15:11) Yeah, I love that. love that. in essence, we're tracking the question, are your KPIs actually driving your growth? We don't know until we start tracking them and then looking at this isn't changing or this isn't exactly where I wanted it to be. So let's look at what got us there. And I think we do fail to do that. Sometimes we just say, you know, this is how we've always done it. Well, my AR is out of control.   This is how I've always done it. Eventually it will find its way back down is not the case. So we've got to look at what we're doing. What's that recipe and do we need to add a little brown sugar, you know, sprinkles onto our chocolate chip cookies? Like what does that need to look like in order to make the change to get the result that we want to get the better cookies? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Well,   DAT Kristy (15:44) you   You got it. You nailed it.   The Dental A Team (15:57) Honestly, you guys, we can talk about KPIs for 16 hours because there's so many different KPIs that can be brought up within a dental practice and really truly you've got to look at what's going to work best for you and for your team. What is the result that you're looking for? Like Kristy said, what's that end goal? And then reverse engineer it. So if you're looking for production, looking for collections, like what is it that gets you the production and the collection? What are those systems underneath it? That's how you're gonna figure out the right KPIs.   I'm a firm believer that there's really not a wrong KPI. There's just more KPIs. so if you're halfway through the year, a quarter through the year, and you're like, gosh, actually, I need to add this. Cool, add it, change it. It doesn't matter just because whatever you choose here in January does not mean that that's for the whole year. It just means this is what's getting us there right now, and it's going to turn into more. ⁓ Kristy, you are phenomenal. Thank you so much for today.   Thank you for the work that you put in with your clients on these types of things and everything else that you do. And I love these nuggets. Thank you. Just thank you so much, Kristy. I know that the listeners are really appreciating this today.   DAT Kristy (17:05) Absolutely, my pleasure.   The Dental A Team (17:08) Amazing. And guys, go listen again. Reach out. If you are a client of ours, ask your consultant if you guys aren't talking about KPIs, if we're not using that word specifically, and you're like, hey, what are we tracking here? We're tracking and we're probably just not using that word specifically. So ask your consultant. Ask where you're at. Ask if you need to shift anything. And if you're not a client yet, then reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are happy to give you some ideas to take a look at what you've got going on and really   let you know what we could do for you or what you can do even without us to increase from where you're at now to where you want to go. So reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and we will catch you guys next time. Thank you.

Nick is bringing you the podcast this week from the Gold Coast for Magic Millions, the racing, sales and entertainment extravaganza that is the envy of the racing world. On today's show, Nick talks to MM ambassadors Mike Tindall and Ally Mosley, Widden Stud owner and leading consignor Anthony Thompson, Coolmore's Tom Magnier, and agents Sam Haggas and James Harron. Plus, Jane Mangan joins the show to have her say about the McManus/Cobden tie up, the creation of a 40k Flat race for Constitution Hill, and goings on at HRI. This week's Weatherbys Guest is Capital Stud Proprietor Ger O'Neill.

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Tiff and Monica break down what it takes to operate your practice like a CEO in 2026, including mindset (especially if you don't exactly feel like a CEO), leadership team delegation, dialing in goals, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team I am so excited to be here. You guys know I love podcasting. It's one of my favorite things that we do throughout the month. I usually get at least two podcasting sessions in with my ladies. And today I have Monica back here with us again. Monica, how are you? I'm so excited you're here. How was this? This is a Monday. So like, how was your weekend? Did you get to rest, relax your grandbaby? What did you do? What was your, what was your weekend like?   Monica (00:25) Yeah, hi Tiff, happy Monday. Happy Monday, everyone. I'm so excited to start off my week with podcasting. ⁓ I think I just have like this new found joy and like interest and passion around podcasting and just showing up authentically and having this conversation. So thank you for inviting me. ⁓ My weekend, I had such a magical weekend. First of all, guys, December is such a magical time for me.   The Dental A Team (00:28) Thank you.   Of course.   Monica (00:56) You know, it's just tapping into all the unseen, right? The hope, the faith, the love that is never ending is all expansive. And December goes by really fast. So I made it a point to be super present in all the little things that I do and the mundane things. And I had such a magical weekend with my grandson. ⁓   The Dental A Team (01:09) It does.   Monica (01:21) I've got two grandkids, ⁓ Elijah who's 12 years old and my granddaughter Sophia who is three months old and I'm just enamored obviously with both of them but Sophia takes the stage right now. ⁓ But my grandson, know, he came over and he, you know, he's earning money to buy an electrical bike and I said, hey, you gotta earn it buddy so.   You know, ⁓ Mimi, I'm Mimi for him. I gave him a little weekend project to come and redo, re-sand, refinish my patio furniture. And we did that. We did that over the weekend and he did an amazing job. And then it turned into like this, Mimi, can I sleep over? Let's have a sleepover. You know, let's sleep right in front of the fireplace. When's the last time you did something fun like that? So.   The Dental A Team (02:03) Yeah.   my   gosh.   Monica (02:11) ⁓   it was, it was amazing. The Christmas tree lights were on, the fireplace was on and Charlie and I and Elijah were having sleepover on the couch. So that was fun. And, ⁓ we got to make breakfast the next morning and we had, you know, the magical dance in the kitchen. Yeah, that happened too. So it was just so special. And, ⁓ those are just memories that I want to hold on to forever. Those are those forever memories, you know? Yeah.   The Dental A Team (02:29) Mm-hmm.   They are, they   are. Those are the memories, those are the things that make life, life and make life enjoyable. So I'm really glad you got that time and ⁓ thank you for sharing. Thank you. You always, share your family with us. You share Charlie, who is her adorable dog. You share just all of them with us. So thank you. Thank you. On that note though, I think Monica, that's like the perfect lead in, into what we're talking about today because   Monica (02:44) Yes. Yes. Thank you.   Monica (02:57) Yeah, yeah, thank you.   The Dental A Team (03:06) what I really wanted to chat about and just get some information out for our listeners and for those of you who are here with us today, make sure that you either go back and listen to some of these pieces. We're gonna have some really good nuggets for you or you're taking notes now if you're in a place that can take notes. I always caveat that if you are driving, I drive and listen to podcasts a lot and I have to go back and listen to them. So please don't take notes while you're driving. But on that note of December and ⁓ we're recording this in December, it'll...   populate in January, which is kind of perfect because this time of year is great because we're winding down and we are enjoying the magic, like you said, and enjoying all of the love and the faith and all of those pieces. But then it turns into January, which is like a fresh new beginning and a magic of its own. And moving into January and being in January, something that I really want CEOs to start thinking about is how to think like a CEO.   Dental practice owners, doctors, don't often think of themselves, I think, as a CEO. Monica, often just, they're a practice owner, they're a business owner. But I think that CEO mindset is something that's very different. And really just looking at 2026, how can 2026 be your CEO year? And how can you start thinking like a CEO? What does it take to move and operate like a CEO? And this is something that we work on with our dental practice owners a lot. So our clients,   We're constantly bringing them back into that CEO mindset. We're really, really lucky in the fact that we have Kiera here on our team that we get to watch ⁓ move through the CEO mindset. And I've had the privilege of side by side walking with her and watching her build the business and building it with her and seeing those trials and tribulations. So being able to impact the world of dentistry with those pieces is something that's huge for us.   We're in January, it's beautiful. I feel like when I think of January, I think of like white and it's just clean and it's this beautiful, sparkly, clean slate that we can just create anything with. So as we're creating this, question that I have is really as we're building like a scalable vision, right? So we're looking forward, what's something that you like to encourage your CEO mindset doctors to really start with? Like where do you, how do we say this is where   Monica (05:24) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (05:24) This   is where I want to go. know, we've got especially a visionary mindset who just is in the clouds a lot. But how do you help them narrow that down into really thinking like a CEO and kind of time-lining that out, measurable? Like, what are all the pieces that you're looking for?   Monica (05:38) Yeah, that's a great question, Tiff. Thanks for asking. Well, first, before we dive into that, I want to say, doctors, it's you. You are the leader, right? You are the CEO and you've got to think like one. And I think ⁓ most of the time we're looking outward for the answers, but the answers are already in you. You've got to take some time to have some introspection time and say, okay,   What does the CEO do? Like, let me put my CEO hat on and bring that mindset in. what is my philosophy as a CEO? You've got to start with your philosophy, right? What does that mean to you? How am I going to achieve that, that one vision? And you got to make sure that your vision and your philosophy is inspiring enough to fire you up, to want to create a change.   right, because ⁓ it starts with you. We've got to be, we've got to be and show up as a person that we expect our leaders, our leadership team to show up as, right? So if you want your leadership team to come in and prepared and be on topic and be on the KPIs and know your numbers, guess what? You got to know the numbers. You've got to show up with that strong leadership, that inspiring, that motivating.   you know, knowing which KPIs you're going to look at, which in my mind, I think there's like the really high value KPIs and then the lower value KPIs, right? Everything is important, but we can't focus on all things at once. So what are the top KPIs that you as a CEO are going to focus on that drive, that philosophy that gave you that drive and that passion to wake up every single day fired up to, you know, tackle the day.   So if you don't have a philosophy, get one, right? Just start writing it down. I think we all have it here in our mind. You gotta put it on paper. Because if it's not on paper, you can't create it. Part of the creation process is thinking it, materializing it, and then sharing it. sharing it with your team, your leadership team. ⁓ And then seeing it, right? Like what is the process of creating that philosophy and executing that philosophy?   Doctors, it starts with you. Be the leader that you expect your leadership team to show up as. That's what a CEO does, right? Like what, who's, who's carrying the torch? The difficult part about being a CEO is that you've got the visionary and then you also have an operational piece, right? And we often say there's, there's two great leaders in any successful business, the visionary and the operational one, right? The one that carries a torch every single day. But you have to be both.   before you can delegate it. You've got to know what that feels like. You've got to know how to drive that. You've got to know how to become it before we expect our team to become it. So it starts with you doctors. Start with your philosophy. I would love to know for, you know, anyone that wants to just comment or just share, what is your philosophy? What do you wake up, you know, every single morning, what do you wake up with? What are you going to take to the office?   I think that's where we start, right? And then there's three things that I think are crucial for any CEO. You've got to be obsessed with this. Your clinical excellence, your patient experience, your culture, your team, and growth and profitability. Those are three things you've got to be obsessed about. Those are three things that you've got to be curious about every single day. Every time that you meet with your team,   We recommend that you have a weekly meeting with your leadership team. Make sure that you're touching on those three things. Those, I think, are the driver to everything. Your clinical experience and your patient experience is everything that builds trust, that builds efficiency, ⁓ that builds retention, patient retention, team retention. Yeah. What are your thoughts, Tiff?   The Dental A Team (10:00) Yeah, I love that. Thank you, thank you. And I know you have some really fantastic nuggets. So I hope you guys, if you are driving, you go back and listen and write them down. And I agree. think the philosophy, right, or translated, you can call it your mission, your vision. Like, why are you here? What is it that you believe in? We talk a lot about your, ⁓ like your patient philosophy or your clinical philosophy. So it's really just, what do you believe in? What are you trying to accomplish with what you're doing? And I love that because   If you can see what you're trying to accomplish, if you can, like she said, get it out on paper and Monica, I think that's brilliant. I do so much better when I'm like handwriting. I even got one of those journals, you know, the little, the notepads that are erasable because I think you just, you can take a picture and it uploads because I just do better with handwriting it. And when you can get it out and you can say, this is where I'm trying to get to, you can start to like build that house. It's like when you're, when you're going to, you're looking at model homes, the model home is already done.   And so it gives you a vision of what you could create if you were to build a home within that development. And so you need that model home. need something that models. you might not be, you might build your home and you might not do the same kitchen. You might have a different tile. You might have different countertops than what was shown in the model, but you're able to at least get a vision for something to start. And then you work backwards from that. And Monica, think that's...   the key there and what you said with the KPIs and the metrics and knowing your numbers and knowing your stats, watching those KPIs and really seeing if this is where I'm going, what are the top three goals that I can get to? And then scaling those backwards. And that's how a CEO works, right? We've got big goals that we scale backwards and say, okay, what are the steps? What is the plan? What's it actually going to take to get to this goal? And how can I recruit then my team to help support   Monica (11:36) Yep.   The Dental A Team (11:55) that and I think Monica, that's a huge word for me and my coaching is the support team. Like how can the team support these goals and I don't know Monica. This might be a side tangent, but something that I've experienced for sure is doctors or leaders or practice owners getting in the mindset of like worker bees like I've got worker bees under me and they are they are the ones that are going to get this instead of that mindset of really   like they're here to support me to get to these goals. How can I support them to get there? And I have to then think a clear vision. If I'm not clear on where we're going, how are they gonna support me to get there? And Monica, do you think in that transition? Because I do think that's a big switch from practice owner to CEO mindset is that really that supportive reaching the goals together, that support rather than.   I gave them tasks and they're gonna get me there. We're really kind of building this house together.   Monica (12:58) Yeah, no, that's a great point. think there's two parts to a successful practice. You've got to be able to work on the business and in the business. And you've got to really protect that time. When you're working on the business, be about that. Show up and be present. ⁓ I think, you   We're so used to multitasking and that that's our culture, right? That's the culture of dentistry is like, you've got to be able to like do a million things at once and your brain is going a million miles an hour. ⁓ you're seeing multiple patients, you're, know, you're constantly shifting and wearing various hats during the day. But to work on your business, you've got to, you've got to be present. No interruptions. Like don't.   get to the office before you get to the office, right? When you're in the office, don't get home, don't work on your personal stuff when you're in the office, work on the things that really matter. And it's difficult to kind of change gears and focus, but I think it's crucial. Working on the business really means, what's my philosophy, right? And reverse engineering that.   Here's where I want to be. Where am I now? What are the steps that I need to do next before I get there? I think having presence of mind is super important because we can't focus on all things, right? If we do, nothing gets done. And so write them down, write all the steps that you need to get there, then prioritize them. What do I need to do first before I move on to the next? And so I like to think about it as layered.   The Dental A Team (14:34) Yeah. Yeah.   Monica (14:48) Right? When you layer it, when it's written down, like create a visual for yourself. And then when it's written down, you can, it's easier to digest and you can journey that, that map per se in a much easier way. you're visual and you can go in and, and, know, add steps to it along the way. But if it's all up here, this is, this is where chaos happens. Right? This is where you get stressed out. This is where, ⁓ unease.   comes in, right, because it's all here and you can't see it. And I think most of us are visual when it comes to, you know, our practice and success and our teams. I mean, we've got to be able to see it, right, to believe it. ⁓ So I think working on the business and then working in the business, guys, that's really important. We can't expect our team to give, you know, above and beyond.   The Dental A Team (15:32) Mm-hmm.   Monica (15:44) and expect them to stay and work after hours on their own time when we're working two days a week in in tearside, right? And leading the team. No one's going to care more than you, right? Your team is there to support you, right? And your vision. So they're not the they may be the drivers, but they're not the principal. You are right. And I think we we tend to forget.   We tend to forget that we are the ultimate authority and we are the leaders. We're the go-to people, right? And ⁓ becoming a dentist and opening your practice, you automatically become a CEO whether you like it or not, right? And we're business owners, we're leaders. The team is looking to us to establish our philosophy, our vision, ⁓ the map. Where are we going, right? You've got to be the captain of your ship.   The Dental A Team (16:12) Okay.   Mm-hmm.   Monica (16:40) And if you don't take on that role, people are just waiting. They're doing the best that they can, but it's, you know, they're in uncharted waters.   I think that's when we lose, you know, the, ⁓ the passion and that fire, because we don't know where we're headed. Right. And everyone's just trying to work in their own little Island and they're, they're working in silos. And then, you know, instead of locking arms and saying, Hey, here's our vision. We're all rowing in this direction and let's go after it. Right. And we've got to be able to row in the same direction.   The Dental A Team (17:21) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, and I think that's where, to your point, the KPIs come into play, right? So you had mentioned earlier, like those measurables and those KPIs, because those are our oars. That's how we're getting there. So it's very easy, I think, for a visionary to have the vision. They know it. They're like, I can see the house. But then you've got to put that, you said, put that implementer hat on for a second, that worker hat on for a second, and say, cool, that's the vision. Now what goes in first?   Monica (17:29) Totally.   The Dental A Team (17:53) Like do we put the countertops in before we put the cupboards in? No, like how do we get there? So those are, I think Monica, to your point, those are the KPIs that are there so that the team can support that vision. So if you want increased new patients, what is the team gonna do to help support that? We've got a marketing company probably, but what can the team do asking for reviews, asking for referrals, like counting those pieces? And Monica, do you feel like that's where, I think personally,   That's where the CEO mindset really takes hold from that visionary kind of practice owner, I just wanna have a business mindset. That's that CEO tactical piece. And I think for practices I've worked with, structures I've worked with, that's the space that's like, we've gotta get over that hurdle and is sometimes the more difficult space for them to be able to see the applicable KPIs that will get us to those goals.   Monica (18:32) Yeah.   Yeah, I agree with you. think inaction equals no action, right? And so most of the time we know what needs to be done, but again, it's up here, right? And we choose for whatever the reason is, we're choosing not to get behind it. ⁓ And so, you know,   Also, sometimes we have to unpack what our limiting beliefs are. What is the story I'm telling myself about myself? That self-talk. Self-talk is super impactful, whether it's positive or negative. So what is your self-talk? What is your little voice saying? Right? Can I do this? Let's do this. Or, ⁓ nobody cares. Nobody cares as much as I do. You know, ⁓   I think self-talk is powerful.   The Dental A Team (19:50) I think   a lot of times it comes down to as well if I can see the vision but I'm not willing to share the vision, ⁓ what is keeping me from sharing that vision? Like why am I afraid to vocalize or put it on paper? What about this scares me? And that's what we're running away from, And we just replace it with the tactical do-do-dos, the checklist of like easy do's throughout the day and it holds us back from really reaching those.   personal and professional goals.   Monica (20:22) Yeah, and also, you know, to add to that, that's really valuable what you just spoke. ⁓ To add to that, think self-accountability and owning your part of it, right? ⁓ It's difficult, like the responsibility of knowing you've got this amazing practice that you've built, a place where patients can   come and seek wellness and that you are contributing to the livelihoods of your team. I mean, that's a big, and your own livelihood, right? Like this is it. That's a big responsibility. And it's a beautiful one. It's one that impacts many, many lives. ⁓ And that can be scary sometimes. What if I make a mistake? What if this is not the right choice? But what if it is?   Take the chance. You can always pivot. If you don't like the result, change it. That's the beauty of being a CEO in your own practices. You can change it. So what's stopping you from creating the change to propel you to the next level?   The Dental A Team (21:21) would have bit worked.   Yeah, I love that. Thank you, Monica. I think some takeaways I have, I always try to think of, you know, three tactical pieces, are the three action items? And I think from listening to everything that you've got today, thank you, Monica, it was beautiful. I really pulled out three, I feel tactical, I wrote down philosophy, make sure you know your philosophy, your CEO, your practice philosophy. And then like three,   Audacious goals for your one year your three year your tenure and really work backwards again ten years Where do I want to be? What will it take to get to that ten-year mark in three years from now? And then this year what do I have to accomplish? So those really those big three goals and then really breaking those down into applicable key performance indicators KPIs applicable pieces that we can work on this year to get us towards those goals and really enlisting the team to help with those things so if you're trying to switch to that CEO mindset   Like Monica said, you gotta get it on paper. Write that philosophy down first. Where is it that you're trying to get to? What are three things that you could work on right now that will help get you there? And what are the small things we can do every single day, those KPIs, that we can do every single day that will help us get to those three goals? Monica, those are my three action items I pulled from everything that you had beautifully stated. think there's also action items they can pull out on the personal side, like journal, you guys. I love your idea.   you know, what's holding me back from doing this? What are my limiting beliefs right now? And if that's scary to get it out on paper, probably back up a little bit and start there. And re-listen to everything Monica said, because she's spot on you guys. you're having trouble localizing it, you're having trouble getting it on paper, or you're scared to share it with your team, there's something internal there. And if you're scared that your team's gonna react a certain way, is that you? Or is that them and you need to go back to the right person, right seat?   that we recorded a few weeks ago. That's a good question there. So Monica, is there anything else that you would leave as a parting statement, something that can really wrap up the CEO mindset for them?   Monica (23:41) Yeah.   Yeah, thank you. actually do. And I was thinking about ⁓ what's the first thing I would do after listening to a podcast like this. And I would go back and ask great questions. Great leaders ask great questions and start with you. Go ask yourself three great questions that are going to start to unpack the CEO that's already within you.   The Dental A Team (24:11) I love that. I love that. Thank you, Monica. I love podcasting with you. You have just, your brain, I love picking pieces out of your brain, because you and I think similarly in a lot of ways in that introspective kind of world, and I think you and I could live there for hours and be so happy. So thank you. Thank you for always sharing everything with us, and...   Monica (24:20) Thank you.   I know.   The Dental A Team (24:35) bringing such amazing tools. The CEO mindset is really important and I know you work on this really, really hard with a lot of your practices. So handpicked for you. Thank you Monica for your time today and everyone here shares that sentiment I'm sure. Of course. Of course. All right listeners, you heard her earlier. She said, pop it in, pop it in your review, pop it in an email to us. Let us know what's your philosophy. Let us know what you love today.   Monica (24:49) Yeah, thanks, Tiff. This was great. Thank you. Thanks so much.   The Dental A Team (25:03) what you want more of, you can drop us a five star review below or Hello@TheDentalATeam.com or both you guys, we love hearing from you. We do get a lot of you that email in different ideas and things that you'd like to hear about. We love that. So please reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and you guys, can't wait to catch you next time. Thank you.