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Ryan Isaac of Dentist Advisors returns to continue his discussion with Kiera about the future of dentistry, including options aside from DSOs. The question a practice owner should ask themself, Kiera and Ryan say, is what that individual wants out of their life — then consider the best platform to get you there. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera, and this is going to be part two of mine and Ryan Isaac's conversation where we're digging into DSOs to sell to not to sell, all of that. And I truly am so excited for you guys here, part two. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.   Kiera Dent (00:17) why don't we take a pause and just think of like, what's the future of dentistry as now the future pioneers of dentistry? And what are we going to do to our profession? Yes, there's top dollar. Yes, there's things about it, but is there a way to influence?   and make sure that the integrity of dentistry can maintain long-term. I have no answer to that, but again, this is Kiera Dent sitting on my podcast where I think that there is a voice and an influence and like on Dentist Advisors podcast, is there a way that we can influence our industry in ways that will protect and still pay out? Because I'm like, even if you don't get the 10X EBITDA, you still can get a freaking great payout if you do your life right to where you can be financially set up.   Ryan Isaac (00:33) Mm-hmm. ⁓   Kiera Dent (00:58) still be able to sell your practice, not have to sell it in ways that could potentially hurt the industry. I'm not saying one's the right answer or the wrong answer. There's no judgment on my side. It's just, let's maybe think and consider how it could influence. Can we get people that could be private equity higher up that could help protect it? Those are things that, and again, I'm just Kiera Dent here in Reno, Nevada.   Ryan Isaac (01:03) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Same, okay.   Okay. Yes. No, these are the questions.   You're totally influential. I think it's just in the opposite direction. ⁓ I don't think we can influence private equity. Private equity is ruthless in every industry. They don't. It feels dirty. It feels dirty. And I have a question for you, but I just want to say really fast. ⁓ I do feel like, yes.   Kiera Dent (01:30) It's dirty. It's dirty.   Is there a way though, Brian, you   don't finance better than me. Is there a way that there could become dentists that could become in private equity where they own it? Because once you, there's no way to insulate, you don't think. Because once you get to that level, you just, I mean, I've had.   Ryan Isaac (01:44) Yeah, but they'll do the same thing. I mean, they'll want the same thing.   Now, money's money. It's why capitalism runs   the world. mean, that's why, you know, it's like why it influences politics and money and business runs the world, you know? ⁓ Okay, hold on. There's so many good things here. Number one would be not every group will be a DSO, private equity backed DSO. And you know, many, many ⁓ clients and just dentists around the country who will end up being owners of   Kiera Dent (02:05) Okay.   Ryan Isaac (02:19) 20, 50, 100 group practices that will stay privately held and ran by owner doctors. That will be a chunk of this ⁓ group practice ⁓ takeover. So in that space, the influence can still be huge. ⁓ I think the chance to influence the integrity of private practice is in those who don't sell to DSOs.   I think it's in the industry, educated in influencing the industry for people who aren't going to sell and who are going to maintain control. Now, I do think that in the future, more and more dentists will be in a group. ⁓ are probably, yeah, be fewer and I can see why it would make sense to do that. There would probably be fewer and fewer people with just solo doc, solo location practices. know, some towns and rural places, that would be hard to do.   Kiera Dent (02:47) Mm-hmm.   I do too.   Ryan Isaac (03:15) So I think you're Dorothy, is that what you said? I'm Dorothy. I think that is possible, not with private equity, but with still the owner doctors that still exist and the group practices that are ran by dentists, not private equity back. I think the influence is still gonna be, I mean, if you took the projections of what will stay private,   Kiera Dent (03:20) Yeah, hi.   I agree.   Ryan Isaac (03:40) and then the chunk of the group stuff that'll be non DSO non-corporate, that's still got to be 40, 50 % of the industry eventually.   Kiera Dent (03:49) I would think so.   I mean, look at it right now. There's corporate dentistry within. And again, there's nothing wrong with any, because I have clients that are in corporate dentistry that run their practices like private. They take care of their teams. So it's one of those things I still think, like even if you are, and that's another way that we can influence this, if you are part of a private equity-backed DSO, you can still influence your practice. You're still the dentist working in the practice. You can still run culture. You can still run change.   Ryan Isaac (03:59) Totally. Absolutely.   Yes.   and hit it.   Kiera Dent (04:16) ⁓ I know the doctors I have, they're part of a very large group corporate and things that we have done together, like I work with them, they're my only corporate practice that I work with, but we have literally influenced the top tier CEO. They've asked what these offices are doing differently. They're taking things that I've helped bring into the practice and they've asked like, what's changed in your practice? Like we hired this girl who teaches us to run it like private practice. Their culture's incredible. We're even right now petitioning up to the top people because they're writing off things that you can actually   bill out to insurance that they're making them write off when it's like, actually, no, we can bill it as a non covered service and actually have the patients cover. So I'm like, I do still think whether you're in private equity, but I think you've got to be a strong enough doctor where you advocate for the rights of your patients and the rights of your practice. And I'm super proud of my client who does this because her and her husband, they go to bat and they're like, they write some pretty direct emails to the CEO of this and say like, hey, and they're a big enough force. Cause I mean,   Ryan Isaac (04:55) Mm. Yes.   huh.   Kiera Dent (05:15) They're the top tier practice in their area. have them making like, we are adding multiple millions to their offices every single year. But I'm like, I think that's also how dentists, even if you're in private equity, even if you're in group practices, I think at the end of the day, are clinicians and clinic, like you are, you are the product. And I think that they have, I think dentists have more say than they might realize that they do to influence the industry and keep it more positive and more ethical than it could be otherwise.   Ryan Isaac (05:38) Yeah.   Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree with that. We all know people who are in those group models that are still running like amazing, almost privately held practices. The other thing that's interesting that's different than medical, because it always gets compared to the medical field consolidation that happened, is medicine has a distinct difference and advantage in that they have hospital systems where gigantic campuses where they can house hundreds of doctors in one place, right?   It's just not that's not a thing in dentistry, which I think will will force it to stay a little unique, different than medical, because you can never have a giant campus building with, you know, 400 dentists. Yeah, like 500. I mean, I don't know. I guess never say never some some group might invent that and you know, like the dental campus of the city. I don't know. Yes, it's possible. But it seems a lot less likely. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (06:18) Mm-hmm.   500 off, you imagine?   Say hi.   I mean, dental schools have a lot, but   I'm like, okay, I think the piece that would be really hard is to justify 500 beds, like 500 ops. You've got your hygiene that's cranking. So you gotta have, in a 500 bed, would need, like, we can only see 500 patients a day. so you can only see if it's 500 a day, that's how many patients you could actually see. I don't think that would be a full city, and we're basically taking over whole city.   Ryan Isaac (06:55) Yeah.   No. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (07:03) And then you might   not be pulling out that much dentistry outside of all of that to be able to fill that many doctors in their schedules. Cause so much of it's hygiene run, it's like a two to one ratio that I think that would be the zone. ⁓   Ryan Isaac (07:07) No.   I love this analysis. Yeah, I   couldn't go that far, but there you go. That's exactly right. So I do think it'll stay different enough in nature because of that. ⁓ And yeah, I, to go back to the, love your question. We've been kicking this around a lot in dentists advisors and I want to reiterate the same thing. There's no judgment here. There's no right or wrong. For some people, it's absolutely the best decision to exit with the DSO and just find the right one. Take your time. ⁓   Kiera Dent (07:19) There you go.   I agree.   Ryan Isaac (07:43) to go through the deals with someone who really knows what deals look like, not just a friend or a CPA unless that CPA is looking at hundreds of deals. Call Brandon, right?   Kiera Dent (07:51) Seriously, I'm like, why? He's got like every flavor of ice cream available of DSOs for you. And like, what are your goals with your financial advisor? What do you need to retire? And then you make sure that the deal is going to actually get you that because like you said, Ryan, it's your greatest asset. And that's where to me, it breaks my heart when people do this. And I was actually, when we were talking about assets, ⁓ there was a stress test portfolio that I heard at a conference that I thought was really awesome that I think about often. so thinking about when you said like, we're investing into this stock.   Ryan Isaac (07:59) Yeah.   That's it.   Kiera Dent (08:20) portfolio, like we're basically putting so much of our biggest asset and so many of our dollars into one single stock. And they said, just stress test your portfolio. If my two biggest portions of my portfolio. Okay. So the two biggest portions right now. And I think about this often, even you and me, Ryan, if those two asset classes dropped yesterday, cause I always do like, if they dropped tomorrow and you're like, well, I'd freaking move things. No, if it dropped yesterday, so there's nothing you could do. Do you have the staying power for things to recover? So like, I don't need to liquidate my assets.   Ryan Isaac (08:24) in one single, yeah.   Mm.   Kiera Dent (08:50) can still have income from our other assets and buying assets that are down. So looking at that, and I think about that often, like, so if your biggest ones are in the stock market and in your DSO and both of those dropped yesterday, like that's all that's gone. Could you still be okay? And if not, maybe look at other ways to diversify that portfolio. I'm not an advisor, Ryan. So you speak to like, if you agree or disagree on that, because that's my thoughts on it.   Ryan Isaac (09:11) Yeah.   Although yeah, no,   that's a really ⁓ logical way to look at stress testing something. If the stock market disappeared as a whole yesterday, all, yeah, well, we just, every publicly traded company in the entire world would be gone simultaneously. We would all be in so much trouble. Like we just wouldn't have cell phone service or gasoline or, you know, like a million things. Yeah, for a minute.   Kiera Dent (09:26) You say that we're all gonna go to the apocalypse, like.   Good thing you're by the ocean. You at least have a good time there, Ryan. I need   to get out of Reno, Nevada for that one year fact alone.   Ryan Isaac (09:44) Yeah, yeah. For me, yeah,   it would work for a minute, but then we would have no grocery chains, there would be no shipping distribution, there'd be no trucking, there would be no like, you know, we'd be done within like a week. You know what I mean? So, but you're the logic of it is true. It's almost like what if we just looked at stress testing a deal, you know, and you said there's usually three parts in a DSO deal, there's the cash up front, there's usually some kind of earned back, or bonus system, that's usually a smaller piece. And then there's the equity piece.   And if one of those didn't exist, if one of those dropped off, what would this deal look like? And I think the question we have to ask is if the equity didn't hit, you know, if they don't get returns on multiples on their equity, like they're projecting and always, of course, the projections are huge, you know, always, always. If this does not come in like you expect, let's just say it's half of what they expected that which would be probably fair to say, or it's all you do is get your money back one day.   Kiera Dent (10:32) always.   Ryan Isaac (10:43) What does this now look like to you? Is this a survivable thing? And is this even something you would be interested in doing? But again, you said this before, I've been saying this, go talk to someone who knows what these deals look like, like Brandon. I'll give you an example. with a client a few weeks ago who had an offer. They were getting a lot of pressure from the group where this came from. They were kind of involved in like, well, I won't even say it. It was just a group of people of other dentists that were kind of pooling practices together. And this buyer,   Kiera Dent (10:50) you   Ryan Isaac (11:14) just a lot of pressure, a lot of hype, right? A lot of hype. And the deal as the details started coming through started smelling really weird. And even he was just like, I don't know. He talked to Brandon for 30 minutes and it became so obvious so quickly how bad this deal was. And now he's pushing the brakes a little bit. He's going to ramp up his profitability, work on the practices some more. He still wants to consider a sale, which is great with that's fine if that's still what you want to do.   Kiera Dent (11:38) Yep.   Ryan Isaac (11:43) But I think that conversation probably just saved him millions of dollars, literally in 30 minutes of conversation. So just talk to somebody, please, about these deals. There's every flavor out there. There's so many ways that they can twist and bend these things. And yeah, there's just a lot of moving pieces in there. So just be careful. Yeah, just talk to someone. Be careful.   Kiera Dent (12:02) I would like, and what   you said, also think like, make sure that you're also selling it for top dollar. This is something I really love about working with you guys, working with clients is if we know that there's a sell on the horizon, think one of the best things you can do is truly like pulling a consultant, pulling somebody. And like I was talking to a doctor the other day and they're like, KK, we want you to come in and help us like with our systems, but they're selling in a year. And I was like, well, respectfully as your consultant, I'm not going to sit here and deal with systems.   Ryan Isaac (12:13) Yes.   Please.   Kiera Dent (12:31) If you're selling to a DSO, odds are a lot of those systems they're gonna bring into you anyway. Our best thing we can do is make your life easy right now, boost your production, reduce your overhead, increase your EBITDA so you get top dollar on the sale while making it like amazing. Like we'll still put systems into place. We'll still take care of your hot fires with your team right now. But like, why not go, it's like, if I know I'm selling my house in a year and if I did a few things to make it exponentially higher.   Ryan Isaac (12:32) .   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (12:56) in the next year of my sell, why would I not do that now? And for us, it's not even like a house where I'm just painting the walls. We're literally boosting your production. We're pushing your overhead down. We're helping your whole team get on board for that. So that way your asset really is the best asset you can get. And we're not doing it in a hard way. So I know it feels like a push, but just know Dental A Team's way is ease. So it's like, it's going to be an exponential growth for you, but with like ridiculous ease. And most of our clients, we just did a huge study across the board of hundreds of our clients.   Ryan Isaac (13:13) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (13:24) And on average, they're seeing a 30 % increase in their production and a reduction in their overhead within their first three to six months of working with us. So like even if you have a year or two year timeline, that right there, so getting the right deal, making sure you're selling it at top, like squeezing the juice out of every single thing we possibly can get out of your practice. ⁓ But then also I feel like what happens in that scenario, Ryan, I see it all the time, is when we come in and we like powerhouse it up with them.   Ryan Isaac (13:34) Thank   Kiera Dent (13:51) They're like, wow, I'm working two days a week and I would make what this DSO was going to offer me and I don't even have to work. Why would I get rid of this practice right now to the DSO? That happens more than I can tell you because it's like they didn't realize it could happen this way. And I'm like, just tell me what you want. Like you want the DSO, you want to work two days. Why don't we build you that right now and like keep the asset that you've got and sell it when you want, which is going to make you the same amount of money as the DSO, but it's on your terms.   Ryan Isaac (13:59) Yes. Yep.   all the time.   Kiera Dent (14:20) So I think that like people don't realize that you can have the benefits of the DSO today. I think the only piece you can't have like, but I give air quotes on can't is like, you still are an owner, but I'm like, there's literally ways for you to sell to partners, have it pay out to you. And you can actually get rid of that ownership piece if you don't want it ⁓ and still have it be the same type of a deal. I think like, don't forget that there's also deals outside of DSOs that you can do internally. ⁓   Ryan Isaac (14:26) Yep.   Kiera Dent (14:48) but it is shocking Ryan how many practice, like I had a doctor and he's like, Kara, I'm going to get 5 million for my practice on this. And I was like, rock on in two years, we literally will make you 5 million net post-tax in two years. was like, literally, and that's net that's post-tax like in two years. I was like, this is not a good deal for you financially if you're going after the financial dollar. So I think just be smart with how you look at this because I don't know, right. And you do it to me all the time. You're like, Kara, yeah, go sell.   Ryan Isaac (14:58) That's what you're make in two years of income. Yeah. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (15:17) but you can also just get the life you want and have your practice and your business run differently, why not consider that scenario too? So I think.   Ryan Isaac (15:19) Yeah.   Yeah, I'm,   yeah, okay. Sorry, finish your thought. I just like what you just said. I just love that. I was gonna ask you this exact thing. I was gonna ask you this exact thing. I was gonna say, Kiera, aren't there ways someone could step back and pause and say, why am I interested in selling to a DSO and then just try to create it through the work you guys do easily?   Kiera Dent (15:27) Okay, so yeah, take it.   100 % and right you do   it to me all the time. You're like Kiera. Well, what would you want your life to look like if you were to sell it? I'm like, I would care if you stopped if you sold what would your life look like? And I'm like, I do this. I do this. I do this. You're like, all right, then why don't we just make your business do that today? I don't think people realize how like you can manipulate your business to truly support the life, the finances, everything you want. Like it's shocking. I'm like just basically give me the North Star and we will manipulate the entire thing for you.   Ryan Isaac (15:59) Just do it.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (16:14) in ways you didn't even know. like, I need Ryan to know our North Star where we need to get. Then we break it down to your, like what lifestyle you want to have. And then we just crank, like, it's like shake and bake. It's such an easy thing for us to do. And we're still doing it with like amazing ethics. It's under your control. It's your culture. It's your business. It's your life. But I mean, I have a doctor who's producing over 5 million a year, working two days a week, taking home DreamPaycheck and they were going to sell it to a DSO. And I'm like, it took us two years to get them to the offer.   and they're like, they're so happy and they're able to now, like you said, I think one of the best pieces on this is they got everything that they would have gotten from the cell. But in addition to that, they didn't lose everything that they've built to where now they can go build and create, like you said, the two day a week practice where they're having it, but they've kept their huge asset over here. And so I just think like, I don't know. I feel like there's so many more options on the table than people necessarily think there are. And so.   Ryan Isaac (17:03) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (17:12) Maybe don't listen to all the noise, be the smarter. It's like when everybody's doing X, maybe there's a Y that would actually benefit your life.   Ryan Isaac (17:16) Yeah. A million percent.   Yeah. I mean, Warren Buffett has a quote around that. It's a little bit different with stock market buys and sells and greed and fear. But yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. I love that you said that. I assume. What are we like 45 minutes already? I assume that you probably want to wrap this thing up, but I wanted to end it with that exact question you went there, which is like, can't we do this? Can't you? No. I mean, that's not the job we do. The Dental A team can help design.   that what you're trying to accomplish that you think some private equity firms gonna come in and give you. And again, let's all just remember, private equity firms, ⁓ they don't love you.   Kiera Dent (17:57) It's true.   Ryan Isaac (17:58) They love your money   and they are not stupid. There's a reason why they gobble up every industry in the economy is because they make us believe they're just giving us sweetheart deals. Like, they're gonna give us so much money. Isn't it so crazy? Like, no, they're really smart. They're gonna get so much more money from you than you're gonna get from them. So if they want your thing so bad that they're gonna chase you down and send you offers and every time you decline, they're gonna be like, okay, wait, what about this one?   Kiera Dent (18:15) They are.   Ryan Isaac (18:26) They want it so bad. You must really be holding something really special. So how can you make that thing become your dream scenario without having to give it up? First, just consider that again, no judgment. There is no right or wrong. Maybe that is your path and that is best for you. Great. If you do the work and the, you know, the research and you're just sitting and you're asking smart people like here in the Dental A Team, you know, about all the details and you're asking yourself why through all this process, that's just, that's the whole thing. So I'm glad you   Kiera Dent (18:31) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Ryan Isaac (18:56) Assuming we're ending it soon. I'm glad you ended it with that because that's what I was thinking about   Kiera Dent (19:01) Well, and I'm glad I'm going around the same beach because I feel like DSOs can be such a buzz. I think it's, I don't know. I just thought about, I remember when Jason and I were graduating from pharmacy school and we had a lot of debt on us and it was so tempting to go the 10 year loan forgiveness plan. So tempting. And Jason and I decided like, Hey, we don't want to like hope and bank that in 10 years, we're actually going to get all this paid off.   Ryan Isaac (19:07) yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (19:29) And if it doesn't happen, what's it going to cost us at that point? And so we elected to just go for it to pay for it and to basically have it like, it's within our control rather than someone else holding my future. And I think that's how I often live my life of like, is there a way that I can get my dream life or I'm not banking on someone else holding up their end of the deal, hoping and praying that their equity makes it and it's something that we can actually do with ease? Why not do that?   Ryan Isaac (19:33) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (19:55) Ryan knows it was a huge issue with me and Jason for about a year to pay off his student loans, but the growth and the life that we were able to achieve that we wouldn't even be done. We still would not even be done with our debt right now. And it would have ballooned and not all of the debt's being eliminated. Like there's so many things around these loan forgiveness programs that I think about that with DSOs too. You have so much banked in, the hope, the promises, like everything has to go right for this huge multiple to have it there.   Ryan Isaac (20:07) yeah. Yeah.   Uh-huh.   Kiera Dent (20:24) Is there maybe a few other paths that you could look at that might get you what you ultimately want, give it to you with more control on your side, and also be able to allow you just more flexibility and freedom. Again, no judgment. think what Ryan and I are trying to bring to the table is maybe just consider looking at things differently to see what's the best path for you. And I say like, right back at you, Ryan, use your financial advisors, know what your magic number is, know what you need, and then figure out which option is going to be that.   Ryan Isaac (20:48) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (20:52) while also providing you the dream life that you want. So Ryan, thanks for the riff today. It was a solid time.   Ryan Isaac (20:54) Yep. Thank you.   It almost felt like planned. was so smooth.   Kiera Dent (21:01) So, mean, it does help when we're good like peanut butter jelly. Like we're very aligned on how we see, that's why I think our clients work so well together because like Denali team clients going to Dentist advisors, it's amazing. We think on similar investment strategies and like just the planning and the protecting clients. And on the other side, it's, Hey, here's our financial number. Denali team literally can like give the gas and give the pieces to it of tactical. So thanks Ryan. was a good time.   Ryan Isaac (21:04) Yep.   Hmm.   We all want to do. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah. We want to grow and protect that business and make it, you know, it's your whole life. Make it as good as you possibly can. You guys are so good at that.   Kiera Dent (21:34) Great.   Well, Ryan, if people are interested in connecting with you, how do they get connected? Because again, I think for me, before I even talked to DSOs, I always tell them like talk to your financial advisor, figure out your project number. That way you actually can then have even one filter on what deals you're looking for, what plan you need your business to be. So Ryan, how do they connect with you?   Ryan Isaac (21:41) Yeah, totally.   Million   percent. So I'll always say friends of the Dental A Team always can email me directly. I'll always have a conversation with anyone no matter what you're looking for. You don't have to be trying to hire a financial advisor. You might just have a few questions and I will always get on the phone and talk to someone. Just email me directly if you ever want to. Ryan at Dentist Advisors dot com. It's with an O.R.S. You can all just also just go to our website dentist advisor dot com. have   probably thousands of hours of free content on there, podcasts, articles, webinars, everything. You can book a consultation with our whole team there at any time. go learn as much as you want, listen to anything, tons of free stuff on there, but that's the best thing. I'm always happy to have a conversation.   Kiera Dent (22:29) It's amazing. And just so you know, Ryan does not take very many clients. So that's why I love him being on here. He's one of the founders. I think Ryan's one of the smartest people I've ever met. So definitely take him up on it. I know tons of our clients love meeting with Ryan because Ryan will tell you like, Hey, you don't need me or Hey, here's someone better for you. So I think it's just like, you're just an incredible human who ultimately cares and loves about these dentists, which is why I just appreciate you. So check him out. Yeah, of course. And for everyone listening, thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time.   Ryan Isaac (22:31) Yeah.   I do. Yep, I do. Thank you. Thank you.   Kiera Dent (22:59) the Dental A Team Podcast.  

All the new tech out there available to practices can be exciting to get your hands on. But if you're not integrating things in a productive way, it'll likely end up in the digital broom closet, collecting dust. Tiff and Kristy talk about the best methods to use when bringing a new program, software, service, etc. to the team. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners. We are so excited to be here today. I have a really exciting, I don't know, subject today on our content and I'm actually really, really excited to talk to you doctors about this and team members, office managers alike, everyone who's here, this is great information for you. I have some offices I'm gonna chat about and just some things that they're doing really, really well I think with their dental assistants that's really setting them apart from.   other practices that I've seen or worked with or other practices in their area specifically. So I'm really excited to talk with you guys about that today. And I have brought on with me, of course, one of my favorites. I love all of our consultants, you guys, but Kristy, I know I just love your heart, like your heart and your soul and the love you have for other people. I love having you on our team. And I think that   No matter what content we're talking about, you relate to it in some way or you find a way to love on our clients regarding it. But I think today, like, I think it's gonna be a really cool one to do with you. So, Kristy, thank you so much for being here with me today. How are you? You're in a new home. hope, gosh, everybody, if you are a client of Kristy's, I'm gonna brag on Kristy right now. And Kristy does not brag on herself often, unlike any of us do. But Kristy moved states. She moved...   She moved states, you guys, without anyone even knowing. I told Kristy, and I will say it again, if I didn't know you were moving, I would never have known you were moving. And I know your clients felt that same way. So you guys, if you are clients with Kristy's, if you see Kristy on social media, you want to write in, like, please give her some kudos because you literally never would have known that you moved entire states. And now you are in comparison in my backyard. It feels like I know you're still like.   Kristy (01:49) Yes.   The Dental A Team (01:50) hot minute from me, but ⁓ you're here in Phoenix with me. So welcome to Phoenix, Kristy. How are you guys doing? How was the move? How is your family? Tell me.   Kristy (01:58) Yep.   my gosh, we're doing wonderful. We're enjoying this weather. I know it's going to heat up pretty good this weekend, but we're enjoying it and just making the most of it. ⁓ Getting rid of boxes. How about that? We'll leave it at that.   The Dental A Team (02:11) Yeah, yeah, good.   I know you went through a garage over the weekend, you said, and it is hot, you guys. Like, I was freaking dying this weekend. I'm like, gosh dang it, why does Phoenix do this to me? But I love it. I'd rather, I have to remind myself all summer, I would rather be hot and like dipping in my pool, you know, or my community pool or my friend's pool or whatever. Somebody has a pool somewhere. I would rather do that than shovel snow.   any time of the day, any time of the year. So I will not complain too much about our weather.   Kristy (02:46) That's right, amen. I agree.   The Dental A Team (02:48) Awesome.   I love it. Well, I know a lot of people, you know, follow our journeys and I just think it's really special. So thank you again, Kristy, for the dedication you have to our clients, to our company, and to the results for clients and non-clients alike. You really worked your tail off to, like, you know, you integrated just family and work so well. I think while I speak on behalf of your family as well, I think you really do it seamlessly and every one of us really truly appreciate you. So.   That's my spiel on Kristy today, you guys. And I'm so excited to jump into this and you'll see it in your newsletters. If you're not subscribed, go subscribe because there's a slew of information in there. And just so you guys know, if you're not subscribed to the newsletters, you should be. Those newsletters, we actually write them. So the consulting team and our marketing team, we put a lot of work into those newsletters. actually, we write a lot of the content that goes along with those. know marketing takes like one a month, I think, but gosh, there's   anywhere between four and six newsletters a month, and they are written by us consultants. So you're always getting the most up to date, accurate consulting information as possible from there. And then we do utilize those similar subjects in our podcast here. So today we are going to speak to one of the newsletter subjects, but we're actually going to spin it just a little bit. So if you're not getting the newsletter again, go check that out because it's going to have different information than we talked about today.   Our newsletter focus, our subject here is really, really focusing on dental assistants and new tech and how dental assistants should integrate it or could integrate it and what that looks like and just what we've seen and what we recommend as a company and as consultants on that standpoint. But something I really wanted Kristy and I to focus on today and to really take a look at and kind of spitball between us some ideas is really integrating the tech because I know dentists.   I know most dentists, I know the dentists we attract as well, dentists I've worked with are just like so excited about new tech and new everything and we want the latest and the greatest and I love that. I think it's because I think dentists are artists and I think there's just a huge massive creative space within dentistry and for those.   individuals who want to be in like healthcare, medicine, but really have that artistic creative side, dentistry fits really, really well for you guys. And the new tech allows us that creativity and to be up to date. But then on the flip side of that too, for the healthcare space, you guys really want the most up to date technology to serve your patients and to serve your community. So I think those both of those reasonings are super massive. But what I see, and Kristy told me, you know, if you see this as well,   What I see most often is that doctors are gung-ho. They're like, they're on all the forums, first of all, all the forums. And I know my office managers are like, get him off the forum. But they're on there, they're on all the forums, they're getting all the information, and they're researching the heck out of everything. And then they're jumping, and they're saying, all right, I'm going to get it, and then I'm going to get trained on it, and then I'm going to come back, and we're going to use it. And...   They go, they get trained on it, and then they come back and, Kristy, what have you seen in your history? I you've been working with a lot of dentists. You've worked in office. You've worked consulting. What have you seen most commonly? Doctors getting new tech coming back. What do you typically see?   Kristy (06:16) you   It's multifaceted, think. I think that I see them getting very, very excited to implement it and show the patients the new technology and also for them to use it, like you said. Yet, I think they fail to remember that they sometimes forget to include the team on the training and then their team gets very frustrated. so quickly, ⁓ the doctor ends up getting frustrated because I've invested in this technology and ⁓ my god.   my team's not using it and all of a sudden it goes in the cupboard or you know they're not using it like they want to so ⁓ typically out of the gate that's what I've seen happen.   The Dental A Team (06:55) Yeah.   sure   I totally agree and I have to say I've been that person right I've been the dental assistant that's like I don't have space for this like what are you talking about I know how to take an impression I'm gonna keep taking an impression and then I'm gonna take my backup impression because I don't trust the scanner right and I'm like   double dipping and wasting time and just really afraid to like jump right in because I didn't, I wasn't there. I didn't get the excitement that the doctor did. I'm not on the forums and truth be told, like I'm just trying to survive. Like I'm just trying to get to the next patient, trying to take care of this patient the best that I can. And I'm trying to get to the next patient and keep a schedule on track and you like flooding this in and you being like, Hey, it's Monday morning. Like I learned this cool thing. We're going to implement this really is like, it's like,   It reminds me of like a clock spinning and you've got all these cogs and all these wheels and then you put like this little toothpick in there and it just like stops and it's like trying and trying and trying until the toothpick breaks, right? And then it can go again. But like that's what it feels like when you're in like go, go, go, and we're going to keep the flow of the schedule and we're going to do all of these things. And then you stick this little toothpick in the cogs and we're like, no, and we're like fighting against it. ⁓   until it breaks and we're like, okay, cool, this actually does help. But it takes a minute for us to get there, I think. And I do think that it's just so sad on the doctor's side in most cases, because you guys are so excited for this thing and you're like, this is going to change our lives and I just need you on board. And it can be so deflating. so number one, I love new technology. Number two, human nature is to say no and to slow down and to be like, nope.   things are great the way they are, even if they're not working perfectly or super well, they're working enough to get us to the next step. And so we're not always gonna be super on board to just change something. Change is scary and we're like, nope, I'd rather stay where I'm at, because this is comfortable, whether it's right or wrong, than jump on board with change. So in thinking about this, as we're writing the newsletters, I'm like, gosh, there's so many.   There's so many things we can talk about with the tech. Like you guys know what that is and we'll throw it in the newsletter. Like, yes, it's there, but what do do with it after the fact? And something I have seen, Kristy, that I've seen a few doctors this year, then one in particular, he's a go-freaking-getter, and he is like go, go, go all the time, and he pushes for the change and he does it really well. But something that I saw him do recently,   in the last like year to two years is as he's growing his tech. So he's layering on rather than whole new. So he's doing a really great layering effect, especially with like the in-office crowns instead of being like, we're going to do an office crowns and dentures. He was like, we're going to do in-office crowns. Then we're going to learn to design a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And now we're going to do dentures and we're going to learn to design. So one thing he's done well is he's been able to see the technology and then scale it back.   So like a reasonable learning capacity. Whereas I think dentists, your brains work that way. Your brains are techie by nature to a point. Like that's just, that's how your brains work. That's how you got through school. Not everybody is that way and that quick to understand things. Like my kid, he's gonna be an engineer. He looks at something since the day he could start talking. Like, I don't know, I remember him being like three years old and he's in the car asking me like, how does that?   work? And I'm like, I don't know. Right? Like, and so I'm like, how do you think it works? So then he's like, I think, you know, and he's constantly he's always done that, like he, or thought he had figured out how like traffic lights are put together, right? This was a funny story. Actually, he said, they take two giant bendy straws, and they stick them together. And that's how the traffic lights are built. And I was like, Yep, that's how they're built. But that's how his brain works. He's got that like, engineer.   thoughtfulness behind it, where I look at a traffic light and I'm like, thank God that's there. Like, thank God we're all stopping when we need to stop. I don't care how it was built or how it was put there, just that it works. So you bring new technology in, right? You've got Brody's mindset that's like, how does this work and why does it work and what's it going to do? Then you've got my mindset that's like, how do we get to the end? Like, what's, what are you trying to do with this? I don't care the mechanics of it, just like, what are we trying to do? And we get stuck. Now, if we had a   bunch of people on your team that thought the same way you do, right? So we've got a bunch of engineer Brody's running around, nothing would get done. Literally nothing would get done. You would just be talking about the process the whole time about how it could get done. It'd be theories running around and like, what if we changed this? And what if we took this tech that works and we'd like tweaked it? You would get nothing done. So then we try to, we try to take that mold and that learning style and smash it on top of people.   who don't necessarily think in that capacity. So what this doctor has been able to do is really take a step back and layer the technology and layer the training, Kristy. And then what he's been doing, I've noticed, is taking his team with him. And maybe not all of the dental assistants, right? Maybe the lead dental assistant and like one more so that two people know it. we're not.   We're not saying break the bank and send everybody to a course, but he has been able to take like two dental assistants to a course where he's learning how to design something or he's learning how to use a new scanner, how to use a new mill or a new 3D printer. Gosh dang it. Like I don't even know how to use those things, right? Because I'm not in office learning, but he's taking them and they are coming back with the knowledge. So then what he's done, and I've seen a couple of practices do this really recently with them, implant courses and   all kinds of new things. What they've been able to do is now it's not just the doctor, right? That one has all the knowledge. When are you going to trade them? Like, do you have time to do that? No, you actually don't, right? Now it's not just the doctor who knows everything, but it's also not just the doctor who is excited. And when you have people behind you in that excitement, one,   I think, Kristy, you don't lose the, like, you don't lose it as quickly, you don't get as deflated because you've got people there rallying with you. And two, Kristy, I think we can speak to this because we train teams. When you have more people behind the idea, it's easier for a group to follow. One person compared to three people on the same team is going to get everybody else following. So he's done a really great job at that. And Kristy, like,   from your perspective as a consultant, me just like if I was that doctor, how do you see that working for practices that you know? Like if we were to be able to implement this with more practices where they take them to these courses, how do you think that would change implementation in a practice?   Kristy (14:01) my gosh, huge. And I think you spoke volumes to also doctor explaining their why, why they're wanting that technology. So number one, when they can take them to the course, number one, I don't have to spend all the time rallying them and exciting them, right? That excitement's already there. All I have to do as the owner or, you know, doctor that wants the technology is explain why and what's the end result they want.   The Dental A Team (14:08) Yeah.   Kristy (14:29) Here's the thing, many times when you start to incorporate the team behind it, they have better ideas for implementation than we do. And when they come up with the implementation ideas, holy cow, it's half the battle, right? And they're brought into the process. All the doctor has to do is keep reinforcing why we're doing this, why we want to change, right?   The Dental A Team (14:36) Yeah.   Yeah, that's a good point.   Yeah, that's a huge point, Kristy, because it's like that brain thing again, right? Brody doesn't always have the quickest A to Z, that process, because he's thinking about every single little thing, whereas somebody else coming in can be like, okay, I can get on board with this, and I think we can get there this way. And between the two ideas, like you said, implementing different ways could really, really be beneficial. And probably, Kristy,   I would imagine get more people on board too, because if they're like, those are gonna be too hard, it's too complicated. Somebody else simplifying it, that would get me on board. You throw something complicated at me, I'm like, sure, I'll get to that. That's my procrastination. I'm gonna get to that someday. I'm gonna do everything else first because it's easier.   Kristy (15:41) Yep, I agree with you Tiff and here's the thing, doctor might short change. He might think, well, let's start scanning on every new patient and they're like, what the heck, we can scan every patient. So you may also limit what they're able to do if it's just your idea. So in you be the cheerleader, explain the end result and the why, but then incorporate them on how, how.   The Dental A Team (15:47) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Yeah, yeah,   that's totally, that's a good point. Cause I've actually seen that too, where they're like, let's practice on each other. And then they're like, well, why don't we just practice on the patients coming in? Like we'll practice on each other for sure, but we've got 16 patients coming in. That's two scans, each of us today. And I've seen doctors be like, ⁓ okay. Do you just have to remember, think, and Kristy, you spoke to this, like you don't have to have all the answers and you don't have to have all of the ways. You have a group of people here.   ready to rally behind you if you let them. I do think, Kristy, I think we both have probably seen this or actually experienced it ourselves as well. When you give people that space to also be creative and to have some creative control over whatever it is, you get better buy-in, but you actually get better, like stronger people. I know I'm stronger when I have the availability to create what I need. You give me, you tell me what you want it to be.   I can create what that needs to look like to get there. I'm just a better employee. Like, Kira loves me more when I'm bought in, and I get bought in by being able to say, okay, I see what you want. This is how I think it might fit in. And then coming to you ladies consultants and being like, okay, what do you see? And I think to speak to that from the dental assistant space, if you're taking, if you have the availability, you have the...   the capability to take your assistant with you, at least your lead, he or she then can say, fabulous, this is how I think we could train on it. This is how I think we could implement it. This is how I think we could get buy-in. And you've got that different perspective from someone who's living, breathing, and working in that space. And I have actually a doctor, I just thought about this this weekend. I think it's this weekend they're going.   He's doing a sedation course and I know there's a ton of doctors doing sedation courses right now or they've already done it. I've seen both spectrums. So I've seen the sedation courses. I lived the sedation course that they brought no one and had and I've seen it. I've the same doctor that does really well bringing assistance did the sedation course on his own and that's why he started bringing his assistants is because he did the sedation course on his own and saw zero traction. It was so hard.   because there was so much information that he had to bring home to them that then he was like, we've got to have this, this, this. And they're like, I don't know what those things are. Like, I don't know what this means. I don't know when you expect us to do this. So this weekend, I've got a dentist who's going to a sedation course and he's bringing, I think he's bringing all three of his assistants actually, which is going to be massive because then they're going to be able to say like, I'll take this on.   I'll take this on and really like divvy out those pieces and implement it so much faster. The biggest thing I think doctors struggle with is the implementation process and it's because they take it all on themselves instead of sharing that love. And Kristy, I know you work with a lot of practices and I know this is like not new information. It's just needing to be heard. What do you suggest for those doctors who are listening that are like, cool, but like, I don't know who I would take.   And then, so I don't know who I would take and then how do I pay for that? how do I budget that? What do you suggest for those doctors?   Kristy (19:27) Yeah, there's two parts to that tip. think number one, hopefully we're all doing performance reviews with our team and asking their goals, their professional goals. What are their growth opportunities for the year? If we're doing that, we kind of know the path that they're looking for, right? And hopefully through that, we identify areas where they want to learn. If we haven't done it, let's get it on the agenda to do it. But also,   The Dental A Team (19:53) That's a good idea.   Kristy (19:54) maybe reach out to the team and ask questions. Hey, I'm looking to learn more about this. Who else would be interested? You know, and before you tell them you're going, but I'm looking into this and just see who would be interested for one and ⁓ invest in them. And that's kind of what I heard you saying. When the doctors invest in their team, team members take great pride in that. Like I know   The Dental A Team (20:04) Yeah.   Kristy (20:19) I was privileged to have a lot of CE in the offices that I worked in and I always felt so honored, you know? And it just makes me a better me and I can come back and implement that in the office and help be a part of something bigger than myself. So investing in them is huge, but yeah. ⁓   The Dental A Team (20:29) Okay.   Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. I totally agree. think I was honored to be able to take a lot of CE as well. And it really did make me feel ⁓ invested in and special. And like I reinvested back in the practice. it's not to say that everyone's going to feel that way or going to utilize it that way. But I do think sometimes you just got to like go for it. You've just got to say, you know what, if it works out that way, fantastic. And if it doesn't, that's OK, too.   because I'm willing to see this through. I'm willing to go for it. And Kristy, suggestion of really chatting with the team and figuring out like, what is your future? What do you want this to look like? Where do you want to go? Kind of helps weed out to the people who are going to reinvest back into the practice or the people who are going to be like, that was cool, but whatever. You you'll be able to tell that. And budget wise with this practice that I just worked with, that's sending everyone to the sedation course, I make him do a CE.   a CE bucket. And so when he said to me, he texted me, he said, and when he listens to this, he's going to know exactly what I'm talking about. He texted and he said, Tiff, I want to send this assistant, like I've already got these two covered. And I said, sure, price it out. What's the flight? What's the hotel room? Do you have to pay extra for her to go to the course? What's your total cost? And what do you have in your bucket?   can you take that from there considering also any CE you're going to have in the future. You've already got two going. I don't care if you take that third. That's totally up to you if the availability is there. If the funds are there or you're willing to make that investment out of whatever funds you have, go for it. Just make sure you're always looking for that. So I do always, always, always say make sure you're dumping into some sort of a CE bucket for those pieces. And a lot of times doctors will think like, well, the CE course only costs this much.   You got to think of your travel as well. Just like when we come in office to you guys, when we talk to you about your platinum model subscription here with Dental A Team, where you're getting a one-on-one consultant, we consider all of those pieces too when we know we're going to be traveling to you. That's always considered in the cost of your Dental A Team membership. So same theory, same thought process, just make sure it's all bundled together and you know all of the pieces.   Kristy, I think I love the way we spun this one. If you're not getting the newsletters, please make sure to let us know and we'll make sure we get you subscribed because I do think this one is off the cusp of the newsletter and the newsletter is going to have a ton of really great information as far as actual technology. Our biggest piece today, Kristy, I think we nailed it, was really, really honing in on how beneficial it can be to one layer.   your CE, so layer your courses, layer your technology, make sure that it makes sense and that it goes in a trajectory that truly benefits the practice, team and the patients. And then really making sure if you can get your team members there to do it. Just gets people on your side, get people that can help you implement it when they know the knowledge. It happens so much quicker. I can quickly say we did sleep together as a team, we said.   and we took two people out of 17. When I was in office, and this was a long time ago, know, so sleep has come a long way, but two people out of 17 coming back was still really hard. So just make sure whatever it is that you're doing, whatever technology you're about to implement, whomever you can bring that will continue the progress and get people on your side, we can do it, invest in it, it's worth it. Kristy, any last words or anything you want to summarize that I didn't hit on there?   Kristy (24:23) No, I think we did a good job there. I guess the only pearl that I would say is then when you bring it back into the office, rally together, gamify it. Maybe put a quantity of we're going to do this many and just celebrate when you reach your goals.   The Dental A Team (24:41) Yeah,   that's a great idea. I love game of buying things. That was brilliant. Awesome. Thank you, Kristy. And thank you, listeners. As always, we are here for you guys. If you have any ideas or any hopes, dreams, wishes, desires on podcasts that you would love to hear more about, more ideas or anything like that, please don't hesitate to read to write in. We get those a lot at Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. So send us what you want. And as always, leave us a five star review below, letting us know that you did enjoy this and also   I would love to hear your stories. If you guys are sending team members, taking team members, or you're hesitant to, please, please, please, please write in. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Just like the newsletters, we do answer a lot of those emails that come through on the consultant side. So just let us know how we can help you and we'll catch you next time.  

À travers des propos du Or Ha'haïm Hakadoch et de Rav Bergman, ce cours explique en quoi a consisté la faute de Mé Mériva (lors de laquelle Moché Rabbénou a frappé un rocher au lieu de lui parler).

Kiera is joined by Ryan Isaac of Dentist Advisors to dive into DSOs. They discuss such questions as: Are they the best financial choice for your practice? The best life choice? Are the horror stories true? And so many more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and I am freaking jazzed for today's podcast. It has been way too long. Me and this guest talk quite often on like life and personal and business, but podcasting it's been a hot minute. I've got Ryan Isaac from Dentist Advisors, my personal advisor, one of my dearest friends. I think we're siblings in another life. Ryan, welcome to the show today. How are you?   Ryan Isaac (00:07) Mm-hmm.   Thank   Thank you.   I'm really good. just realized I was trying to hit mute and cough, but I hit like a chapter marker instead. So there you go. To your listeners or your ⁓ editing team, then there's a chapter marker while I'm coughing. So in your intro. Yeah. Tis the season.   Kiera Dent (00:35) You're welcome. Yeah, that's fine. I'm   okay with it. This is real life. We're sitting on, I mean, Ryan, you're sitting on the couch. I should get like my posh chair. I've been considering changing up my podcasting zone. Yeah, of course. All of us can see it. We're excited for that.   Ryan Isaac (00:40) Hahaha   Can I show you? Can I just give you a little vibe check here? I mean, it's actually, that's   the ocean. I'm on a little summer getaway for a second. So yeah. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (00:54) my gosh.   That's amazing. So that's Ryan's   life. Ryan's living his rich life over there. He's like truly. So, okay. If you're new to the podcast, Ryan is my personal advisor. Like truly he actually works on. We talk about my life. He's helped me make some really good decisions and not make some bad decisions. So I feel like financial advisors. My best advice is you gotta just find someone you trust. And I know Ryan is way more conservative than me, but cares about me as an individual so strongly. And Ryan, huge kudos to you.   And so we talk about it a lot, but something we talk often is like, what's our rich life? And I remember Ryan for years, you were like living in your van, truly driving to California all the time to be by the beach, because you love surfing so much. So it just makes me so happy to see that you are living your best life by the ocean. You're doing what you teach all of your clients to do of living their version of a best life. Something that we try to do in dentistry and dental team too, like, hey, let's help your business provide you the best dream life you want. So that's Ryan.   Ryan Isaac (01:36) Yeah.   Thank you.   Yeah, yeah.   Yeah, thank you. And there's no there's no right way to do that. I mean, everyone has their own thing that's worth the money or worth spending on. We're just kind of joking around about this, too. There are people who will sit in ⁓ small rentals or apartments on millions of dollars because to them having lots of security and liquidity is more valuable than houses or everyone's got something different. But, you know, we're all we're all chasing it, hopefully.   Kiera Dent (01:57) Catch y'all.   I think it's called the like emotional ROI and what helps you sleep at night in your financial world. So Ryan and I usually get on the podcast and we'll talk about finances. I mean, obviously dentist advisors, Ryan do a spiel. What is dentist advisors? Just so people know. I think you guys are financial advisors for dentists specifically. I'm not a dentist, but I can speak honestly, but a spiel. And then we're going to actually go like a hard left turn of what we're going to talk about today. Like really.   Ryan Isaac (02:26) Ooh. Uh-huh.   Yeah. Thank you. ⁓   Yeah, yeah, our   on ramps coming up here really soon. We got to get over it. We got to get into the right lane. Dentist advisor started ⁓ almost A Team years ago now with me and Reese Harper. Shout out to Reese Harper. And yeah, we were dedicated to being ⁓ an independent fiduciary fee only ⁓ advisor for dentists to manage investments and give financial advice. Ultimately,   Kiera Dent (02:51) Yep.   Shout out to Reese.   Ryan Isaac (03:17) you know, a dentist path through school and debt and taxes and all the stuff they go through, ⁓ you know, buying a practice, building businesses. There's no reason why all of that should not pay off every it should pay off for every dentist. There is enough money to be made in dentistry. And so our job really and you kind of said this with the you know, in the intro, ⁓ I really do feel like just protecting my clients, you know, and that's a philosophy that we've.   built into our business. There's no reason why dentists shouldn't make it to the life they want and to the finish line financially. so, you know, ⁓ it's more about consistent, small, good decisions for long periods of time and avoiding like a few big mistakes that could derail you forever. So yeah, we have a custom financial planning process, ⁓ a lot of like reporting and data, and we just manage and track ⁓ dentist finances and make sure they end up in a good spot, safe and healthy and   Happy, hopefully.   Kiera Dent (04:15) which I love about you guys, Ryan, and I really think you guys do a great job. And this is something you've taught me. And we have a friend who said a great quote that I feel should be your quote. I can't give it like, so you can take it and like make your version. But they said like regular investing is like vanilla ice cream. It won't make anyone jealous, but it always tastes good. And I felt like that's such a great way to look at how you've taught me how to invest. ⁓ At the end of the day, it's just a small, consistent thing. So I think Dentist advisors does really well. And Ryan, something you've done for me. ⁓   Ryan Isaac (04:24) well. Okay, okay.   Mm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   .   Kiera Dent (04:44) Like it's so dumb, but I know you're watching me and I know like when I, like you're really not watching me, but I feel like you're watching me.   Ryan Isaac (04:49) Yeah, well, let's   hold that disclaimer here for a second. I see your numbers. I see your accounts. I see your emails. Every time you save money, I'm like, Kiera, good job in the email thread. Gold stars. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (04:53) Like, I know he's not, like, he watches my account for sure.   That's   all it is. And I just know having Ryan there where I need to send it in every single month of what we're going to invest. We've talked about the plan has been such a game changer for me. So that's why I love Dentist Advisors. And like we said, we're now like taking our off ramp because Ryan and I want to talk about DSO sales. I think this definitely implies to a financial advisor. We have a lot of clients that we send to Dentist Advisors. We work such hand in hand with both sides. Like we love what you guys do. You love what we do. It's   Ryan Isaac (05:19) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (05:30) Truly like the best peanut butter and jelly sandwich or whatever your favorite. If you want this to be meat and cheese, peanut butter and honey, whatever it is, I think it's the best duo. Yeah, exactly. That is the best. Captain Crunch, but would you rather Captain Crunch or Reese's? Or.   Ryan Isaac (05:37) Captain Crunch in 2 % milk, you know.   No. I would actually say   fruity or cocoa pebbles, to be honest with you. Or cinnamon toast crunch. Can we arrive there? Okay.   Kiera Dent (05:52) We both disagree on that. So cool. Okay, can handle Golden   Grahams or are we like back to the s'mores run? Remember the s'mores Golden Graham?   Ryan Isaac (06:00) Yeah, I do remember   the scores. How are we like not landing on the same one at all? What about honey butches of oats? Wow. Okay. ⁓   Kiera Dent (06:05) It's okay. That's fine. I'm not like the biggest serial fan and I go through phases. I love Lucky Charms, but I'm not joking.   Those marshmallows give me the chills. Like I can't crunch into it without it being like full body chills. So I don't know. weird. But back on this. So we've actually had a lot of clients that are debating of do I sell? I sell to a DSO? And I'm like, talk to freaking Ryan.   Ryan Isaac (06:18) Yeah, it's like biting Styrofoam. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah.   you   Kiera Dent (06:32) I don't know what you want to do for your retirement. I have no clue how this is gonna impact you with your taxes. I don't know all the stuff, but what I do know is I'm a freaking miracle girl, so we're gonna get you top dollar for your cell, but like let's talk DSO. Cause also like DSO to not DSO, like I don't know Ryan, there's a million things. So let's Rift. You wanted to talk about this. I love this. Let's do it.   Ryan Isaac (06:41) Yes.   Yeah, yeah. Yeah,   well, and so you said something a few minutes ago about ⁓ dentist investments. And yeah, like our job is to help manage investment money for people ⁓ in a really long term kind of boring way, if we're being honest. But yeah, it's very yeah, it's just like it'll be there forever. Just let it do its thing. But the biggest investment any owner is going to have is their practice. And that is the thing   Kiera Dent (07:08) vanilla ice cream ish.   Ryan Isaac (07:18) is why you and a team is so important because the thing they should protect above everything is their practice investment, their business investment. There's nothing more impactful to a dentist's entire life and not just their money, but their entire lifestyle, probably their mental health, their wellbeing, where and who they spend their time with. So it is by far the most important factor in all of this. And so the world that we're in now is that   DSOs are an option to sell to, to work with, to become a part of. They are in some shape or form, you know, supposed to become the majority of the industry in the future. I think that's a broad category. think the category is more like group practice will become the majority of the industry. I'd love to hear what stats you've heard and what you actually see. think people talk about, you know, 60 to 70 % consolidation in the industry.   becoming some kind of DSO or group practice. ⁓ yeah.   Kiera Dent (08:19) Yeah, I was actually at an AI conference with   that just literally this last week. And they said that they're estimating 65 % of the market will become in the DSL world in the next like five to 10 years. So I think a lot of people are expecting, which is so funny to me because I remember, gosh, I think I was Mark, this is a long time ago, we were at the dental college. And so we're probably talking like,   Ryan Isaac (08:32) Uh-huh.   Yeah, okay.   Kiera Dent (08:46) 2018, 2019, I remember talking to the students, like, what do you think is gonna happen? And I'm like, I know I'm unpopular, because even Mark wasn't on board with this. And I'm like, I think I'm unpopular, but I'm pretty confident DSOs will be the future. And they're like, you're full of it. They're like, there's no way. And I'm like, I mean, I'm not emotionally invested in this, but if I look at what's going on, my husband's in healthcare. This is what happened to pharmacies. This is what happened to mom and pop shops, like for medical.   Ryan Isaac (08:57) Mmm.   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (09:14) I cannot think for one second the dentistry and with the EBITDA like offers that you're getting, it doesn't matter. And Jason, were talking about this the other night. I'm like, even if doctors want to have a legacy practice, that's great. You sell to this person, but this person now is younger. They have more debt and DSOs is like one bad day and this DSOs right on their doorstep. They're going to sell. Like it's just, I mean, you've got to some really strong guts around you to not think about a DSO. And I think DSOs,   Ryan Isaac (09:42) Hmm.   Kiera Dent (09:44) can often hit you at emotional times. Like Brian, you know me. There have been times that I told you like someone offered me a buck for Dental A Team, they could have it like one bad day. It's just like shirt. Like everybody has it in business ownership. So I think that that's where the DSOs are super attractive to people. But like I was talking to an office yesterday who's considering working with us and they're like have a one year buyout. And they're like, we're thinking about doing this DSO. And I was like, all right, but like what's your ultimate end game? What are you trying to achieve?   Ryan Isaac (09:46) Mm-hmm.   yeah. Yeah. yeah. We all have those days. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (10:12) you met with other people to talk about DSOs, there are other options and he's like, well, it's too big for these partners to buy. I'm like, well, it's actually not like there's ways for partners to buy you out if you want. think it's just, DSOs feel like the easy button, but I don't know if they're really easy. And I think that that's where I'm a little bit on the fence and I'm super jazzed for us to rift on. Is it really the best financial choice? Is it the best life choice? I don't know, Ryan, you know, the finances more than I do. just.   Ryan Isaac (10:14) It's on.   Mm-hmm.   Same. Yeah.   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (10:40) I do good job of helping people get their assets where they want them to be. So they have choices and options of what they want to do.   Ryan Isaac (10:42) You do.   Yeah, so I think, you know, it makes a lot of logical sense, especially the way it started with DSOs, that it would have gobbled up a lot of the industry. Hearing 70 % made a lot of sense to me. Maybe we're just in a dip in a lull, which we totally have become, we've entered into that because of the, you know, the debt and rate situation that happened over last few years in inflation and, you know, just interest rates. Money got really expensive. It was hard for a lot of companies to grow across a lot of industries.   And, uh, but, and I, I'm, uh, I want to say these statistics correctly, uh, from smarter people than me in the DSO space. I think there's something like maybe, you know, 350 to 400 technical DSOs in the country right now. And I've heard in multiple sources that up to a third of them are in some kind of financial receivership right now. Meaning, and I know you've seen this with clients too. DSOs have grown and they purchase and they borrowed money and then   rates hit them and they grew too fast. They went ahead of themselves and they defaulted. And ⁓ there are some major DSOs, huge ones that I did not ever think would happen that went into default that are going bankrupt that are changing ownership. ⁓ People are losing their equity money, they're not going to get their payouts. ⁓ And they're they don't own their practices anymore. I mean, there, we have some clients in that situation. So   Yes to the consolidation in the future of that because of just that's the nature of economy sometimes in industries. And I don't know if it's going to hit 70. I don't know. It makes me wonder. ⁓ Those multiples are down a lot than they than they used to be. And they'll probably you know, they'll probably fluctuate, come back up a little bit more when money gets easier. ⁓   Kiera Dent (12:22) I don't know anything.   Ryan Isaac (12:36) Also, I think people are getting a little bit wiser to it. Do you see this? I mean, let's say three to five years ago, it was the most exciting thing to get an offer sheet across your desk and be like, know, some multiple of you, but this is insane, I'm done. I do find people way more hesitant and not as excited about that number anymore. What have you seen with that when people see those initial numbers?   Kiera Dent (12:47) Made it.   think people are way smarter. think the grads coming out of school have been trained on business a lot more than say dentists 20, 34 years ago are trained and not to say dentists 20, 30 years ago weren't. I just think it wasn't like we weren't talking EBITDAs. You weren't selling like this. So you didn't there was no need for it. ⁓ And I think in the past, I think the reason people are more skeptical right now, Ryan, is because they're hearing the like horror stories coming through. So people are like, hold on. Maybe it's not as like   Ryan Isaac (13:12) It's different. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (13:28) rosy as it was. I honestly like DSOs might be a little bit of dentistry's dirty secret. Like there's a small piece of me feeling that way and not all DSOs I'm not here to blanket statement it, but I do think there's like, think the dentist is the one getting ripped off in the whole scenario. like, because Ryan helped me, this is where I, guys welcome. This is what Ryan and I used to talk about off camera, but I'm just going to like have the conversation here because I'm curious. So your clients, okay, so hold on.   Ryan Isaac (13:43) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, huh?   Kiera Dent (13:58) answer your question, no, they're not as excited about it. And also I think that they're being flooded with a bajillion offers. And so almost like overwhelm of who the heck do I have? Who do I trust? Who do I know? 400 DSOs out there. They're being bombarded every single day. I have heard dentists tell me they get four to five offers every single day of a DSO, which is why I'm like one bad day, you click open an email and like bottom, bottom, there you go. So I do think Bron and Man.   Ryan Isaac (14:02) Yes.   Yep. Yeah.   Yeah, you're done. Like, yeah, that's the buyer. Yeah, take it. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (14:22) Brandon Moncrief with Dental Transitions is probably the smartest DSO man I've met and I think you and I have circled. He's really brilliant on like who he knows offers that you can get like he kind of knows how to navigate the DSO world of what you want, which I think is awesome. But what I'm curious on Ryan. Okay, so you said you have clients. So when you sell to a DSO, there's lots of different makeups of how they can do these deals for you. But let's say there's I think the most standard one I usually hear is they pay you about 50 % of your practice is worth like you're giving it to them.   Ryan Isaac (14:24) Yes.   Yeah, I still send people there. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (14:52) You also have them 50 % in equity in their business, hoping like with stock shares, hoping that it builds and that's like basically your payout. So it helps with tax. It helps with like future investments of the EBITDA. Those are the things that they're going to be dealing with. But my question is, so like your clients, they sold, they don't own their practices anymore. They're an associate there now ⁓ and they're getting paid. They don't have to do the management, billing's taken off of them, hiring, all that. But let's say these, so let's say I sold to Ryan Isaac DSO.   Ryan doesn't have a DSO just for clarity, but let's pretend I'm dentist. We got to make sure I don't want him getting in trouble. He's a financial advisor. So Ryan doesn't have it. okay, we're selling, okay, lies. We're selling it to Captain Crunch DSO. All right, let's just go safe. Captain Crunch DSO. Captain Crunch buys me. I'm now, I got my 50 % payout. have 50 % equity in Captain Crunch DSO and I'm now working as a dentist there, but I don't own my practice anymore.   Ryan Isaac (15:23) Yeah, just so we're clear here. Yeah, yeah. I've highly regulated. Yeah, might be in trouble for that.   Kiera Dent (15:49) Captain Crunch DSO is growing, growing, growing. Everything's looking good. I've got my stock in it. Captain Crunch loses its funding. They go bankrupt. What happens to me? Because odds are they go bankrupt. Another like lucky charms DSO is going to come buy Captain Crunch. Like they get a penny, dollar. What happens to me as the dentist when Captain Crunch goes under, but then lucky charms comes to buy me. How does that work for me as a dentist?   Ryan Isaac (16:02) Yeah.   Yeah,   I'm watching that happen right now with a gigantic national specialty DSO with some clients. And what has happened is that their equity money is likely gone. So they got their payout money.   Kiera Dent (16:19) Mm-hmm.   Even   with Lucky Charms coming in to buy it. My equity money's gone because it was with Captain Crunch. Do you love that I did cereal for you?   Ryan Isaac (16:28) Thank   I love it. It's so good. And I'm trying   to like, like who's more evil in this hierarchy, you know?   Kiera Dent (16:35) I think Lucky Charms isn't more evil. Lucky Charms is one who capitalized. They saw a dill. They don't care about the dentist. I'm not saying that they don't, but it's like hungry, hungry hippos. One goes out, someone's going to come buy it all. That's what they're going to do.   Ryan Isaac (16:37) Who's more well capitalized? Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah, this   would be such a good question for Brandon again, and I'll just second that every time someone has questions about deals, or they want to compare things, ⁓ or get to know the space a lot more, I send them to Brandon. So just find Brandon Monacree, if he's on all over the internet and all of our content. Yeah, there you go. So it depends on the structure of the deal. It depends on the fine print and the paperwork. ⁓ In the ones I'm seeing right now, these dentists   Kiera Dent (17:04) dentaltransitions.com. Yeah, he's everywhere.   Ryan Isaac (17:17) lot, their practices are not there. So their practices are still gone. And they likely are not going to they're definitely not going to get any return on their equity. Some of them depending on how early they got in might get their equity back or, or parts of their equity back. But a lot of it's just, you know, when another company when a big financial company comes in to save a bankrupt company, it's ruthless, you know, I mean, they're they're cutting and they're scrapping   as much as they possibly legally can. they'll do that, of course, because that's good business for them. So what I'm seeing, and again, I'll just say that it's probably different in every single scenario of this. But what I'm seeing is one that happens. ⁓ These dentists are losing their practices, they're not getting any return on their equity money, and many of them probably won't even get their full equity back. Luckily, some of my clients that I'm thinking of were in early enough and the fine print of their deals was good enough that they're going to get some of their equity money back.   Kiera Dent (17:48) course.   Ryan Isaac (18:15) ⁓ that's it. They're done. So what really happened in that transaction was they got front loaded a certain amount of years of income, paid some taxes, paid off their debts and lost their practices and worked a job for three or four years at a very low salary compared to what they produce. ⁓ many of them got really burned out, bombed out, kind of lost their fire and spark for the work. ⁓   And they're back to square one. Some of them have enough money to be finished. What is interesting though is even the ones who have enough money to be finished are still contemplating starting or buying another practice where they can legally and doing like a really chill lifestyle two day a week thing. Really common. Other people will fully lose their equity. And in a situation, again, back to your point, a lot of people are   Kiera Dent (18:54) and   Ryan Isaac (19:05) Maybe it's not as excited about this. The multiples aren't what they were. Then they could come back. I don't know. A lot of people just say the longer this goes, the smaller the multiples will become, which is, yeah. No, we're definitely not. And so now we're talking about an offer where someone's coming to you to take away like your main, main asset, your cash cow, the biggest thing in your whole life. They're going to front load five or six years of income. You have to pay taxes and pay off your debt with that money first.   Kiera Dent (19:13) which I would agree on that completely. I don't think we're half as high.   Ryan Isaac (19:33) The deals that you mentioned, some are 50-50. I've seen them in thirds where it's like third buyout, third earn out where you have to keep producing and then a third equity. I've seen them 70-30, 60-40. They can really be any shape or size. ⁓ Yeah, but they're smaller. And so now we're talking about, you know, five or six years of front loaded income. You pay taxes, pay off your debt, and then you just hope that this company that bought you and essentially what's happening if you think about it.   Kiera Dent (19:48) They really are.   Ryan Isaac (20:02) You're taking like seven figures of money and you're putting it into a single stock. You're investing into a single stock and it's a very small privately held company. I know it feels safe and secure because it's your field, it's dentistry, know, all these things are, but you're taking seven figures of your money and you're putting into one single company where right now maybe up to a third of these companies are failing.   Kiera Dent (20:08) Thank   Ryan Isaac (20:30) It's not not a gamble, you know, and the whole kicker in all these deals, as you know, and your audience knows, Kiera is all in that equity piece. Everything else is just front loading your income for the next five or six years and taking away your ownership. And then, you know, really changing the nature of your career and your work. And it really does change people. It changes. And I'm not saying it's always for the worse, but it is change changes, teams changes, the patient experience changes, the culture and the vibe.   Kiera Dent (20:34) huh. ⁓ huh.   Mm-hmm.   Ryan Isaac (21:00) And so if that one little equity piece does not pan out the way that they say it's going to, ⁓ you know, that's the part that everyone's kind of wising up to. And if you're under, let's say, your late 50s, if you're younger than your late 50s, I think it's becoming a tougher decision for people to make. in late 50s or above, it's kind of like, I'm done anyway in three or four or five years. Might as well get top dollar.   even if the equity doesn't fully pan out all the way, it might be more than a private buyer. But even then, I've seen the math on a lot of things and like, it's close. And yeah, you've seen it all too. So yeah, it's tough. It's tough to watch the ones that fail. ⁓ Some of these, some of these, and you've probably seen, we're not going to name anybody, but you've probably seen them too. Huge practices, multi-location, huge DSOs that now...   Kiera Dent (21:25) Mm-hmm.   Agreed.   Mm-hmm.   Ryan Isaac (21:52) own these practices. And okay, here's a question for you. What do you think is going to happen, let's say 10 years down the road or longer, when all these DSOs have been bought by the next company and been bought by the next company? And then in the end, some like third and fourth party removed private equity firm, international private equity firms holding 10s of 1000s of dental practices around the country?   What is that like in the industry? mean, you're in the practice as you know that you're like in the heartbeat of that. What does that mean for the industry? What does that feel like? Does it feel weird?   Kiera Dent (22:27) It does feel weird. And I think this is where I've been, I don't know, Ryan, you know me. just sit over here and think of ideas all day long. I've been like, how can we like, hi, I'm Kiera. I live in Reno, Nevada right now. It's like, how can some, I feel like I'm like Dorothy in Kansas right now. It's fine. It wasn't the destination, but it ended up being, it's fine. It's got really great. No state income tax. All right. That's really one of the main reasons we're here. It's not.   Ryan Isaac (22:42) I like to write now by the way. Just a little shout out. like to write now. Yeah. Loud and clear. Yeah.   Yeah, fine. It's pretty in some seasons. There you   Kiera Dent (22:55) But it's okay. We have Lake Tahoe. ⁓   Ryan Isaac (22:55) go. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay.   Kiera Dent (22:59) But only half of Lake Tahoe because California owns the other half. So it's okay. But I've thought about it. like, how can, like, it's like I'm Dorothy in Wizard of Oz right now. It's like, how can we somehow influence these private equity firms? And there might be no way. But these are the questions I think of often, because I do think if we're not careful, it will radically shift the way dentistry is done. And it will turn into a business rather than into our   Ryan Isaac (23:02) Yeah, you're half.   Okay.   Kiera Dent (23:24) our healthcare profession. I mean, I look at modern medicine, my husband's in it and it is a freaking drill machine. Like his number one thing was patient productivity and they had to have so many patients, otherwise they were going to fire providers. And their providers worked hard. They weren't getting paid what they like want to get paid. And so I'm actually watching in healthcare, lots of my friends in healthcare, nurse practitioners, doctors branch off and go open up their own practices because they're sick of working in modern medicine. So I'm like,   Ryan Isaac (23:24) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (23:51) if we can look at modern medicine and see how the healthcare system has been working and how can we do something now as like you said, third, fourth remove private equity, owning all these dental practices, like is there a path? And I don't know, right? Like this is I feel like I'm like Dorothy sitting in Kansas of like how on earth can we influence it? But I'm like, if enough brilliant people start thinking this way, what can we do now to show that you can be profitable and ethical and still give great dentistry where we're not having to like,   Ryan Isaac (24:08) Hmm.   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (24:21) not running it like a private equity business, but still showing. so Britt was like, we need to become the Wegmans. Like, have you been like up north, like Wegmans is an amazing grocery store. They're not the biggest, but they still are ethical. And I'm like, if we even had a few private equity that's third and fourth removed that would still run practices that way, I think dentistry would still feel the same. Something else though, that I think of like new dentists coming in that I think is really paramount is you've got to look at the future of the industry. I think the current doctors,   Ryan Isaac (24:39) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (24:50) that have been in dentistry have like safeguarded and kept dentistry like we're healthcare when we want to be and we're not healthcare when it doesn't benefit us. Like we literally have straddled the spine line. It's still a little bit of the wild wild west dentistry is not as regulated as far as like our fees and like what we're able to charge in every single practice and like insurance is schmuck. get it. But I'm like, you also only have $2,000 of max most of the time that we're dealing with rather than it being like a hundred percent of what your patient base is and like what the patients are paying out. So I'm like,   Ryan Isaac (25:11) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (25:19) I feel the pioneers of dentistry have actually done a really good job of setting it up to where dentistry is still very profitable. It's still able to be its own thing that I'm like, let's, again, I feel like I'm like Dorothy sitting on my soap box in the middle of prairie fields and saying like, hey, why don't we take a pause and just think of like, what's the future of dentistry as now the future pioneers of dentistry? And what are we going to do to our profession? Yes, there's top dollar. Yes, there's things about it, but is there a way to influence?   and make sure that the integrity of dentistry can maintain long-term. I have no answer to that, but again, this is Kiera Dent sitting on my podcast where I think that there is a voice and an influence and like on Dentist Advisors podcast, is there a way that we can influence our industry in ways that will protect and still pay out? Because I'm like, even if you don't get the 10X EBITDA, you still can get a freaking great payout if you do your life right to where you can be financially set up.   Ryan Isaac (25:51) Mm-hmm. ⁓   Kiera Dent (26:17) still be able to sell your practice, not have to sell it in ways that could potentially hurt the industry. I'm not saying one's the right answer or the wrong answer. There's no judgment on my side. It's just, let's maybe think and consider how it could influence. Can we get people that could be private equity higher up that could help protect it? Those are things that, and again, I'm just Kiera Dent here in Reno,   Ryan Isaac (26:22) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Same, okay.   Okay. Yes.   Kiera Dent (26:38) Yeah, of course. And for everyone listening, thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time.   Ryan Isaac (26:37) Thank you.   Kiera Dent (26:42) the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Dans cet échange passionnant, je retrouve le Dr Cloé Brami, médecin cancérologue, docteure en psychologie et en sciences de la pensée, et fondatrice de Mû Médecine, une école pionnière dans la formation à la médecine intégrative.

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Shocking New Witness Revealed In Court! #doordashwitness #idaho 4 case #anntaylor Shocking new witness may be able to identify Bryan Kohbeeger in a white Hyunda in front of 1122 King Road prior to the murders. This eyewitness testimony from a door dash driver could blow this case wide open. This witness known as MM is the second eyeball witness.

Shootings continue in Meridain Overnight- Two people were shot in separate incidents overnight. A string of accidents sent several people to the hospital Thursday afternoon. A three-car pile up slowed traffic near Rodney's Muffler, I-20 at MM 124 slowed traffic, a minivan crashed on Walker Bottom Road in the Clarkdale Community, totaling the vehicle. Newton PD is investigating a Death; no details have been released. Quitman welcomed the Groundbreaking Ceremony at Howard Industries, bringing jobs to Clarke County. #scottyrayreport #morning #weather #headlines

On EP310 we talked about the expiring contracts of MM and JT. We also poked around the league at other free agent targets. 

How did you end up in the property management industry? Becoming an entrepreneur is often a difficult and lonely path with many ups and downs along the way. Many property management business owners are miserable in their own businesses. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with property manager and DoorGrow client Derek Morton to discuss how he was able to build his property management business and team around himself. You'll Learn [01:53] The Entrepreneurial Struggle [09:03] Building a Business Based on Humanity and Care [26:48] The Impact of The Right Company Culture and Team [38:57] Masterminding with Savvy Property Managers Quotables “Property management really is a business of relationships.” “If people fail me, sometimes I don't have a proportional response. So why would I expect anyone else to act differently?”  ”Your internal beliefs really, I think, shape the environment that we allow or create around ourselves.” “If you're relying on team members, it's really dumb to think you've got all of the best ideas and nobody else is as smart as you.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Derek: Sarah was like, "Hey, you did all this stuff, how did you do it?" And I'm like, I don't know. And so we went back and we ran the numbers. 88% of my growth has come from my network and just those relationships.  [00:00:13] Jason: They say your network is your net worth, right? [00:00:15] Jason: Okay. I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management business owners. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. [00:00:32] Jason: At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profit, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like bar Rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses, done websites for hundreds more than that, and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world, and that property management is the ultimate, high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:01:16] Jason: That's our mission statement. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:27] Jason: So I'm hanging out today with one of our clients, Derek Morton, over at Net Gain Property Management. [00:01:32] Jason: Derek, welcome to the show.  [00:01:33] Derek: Thanks for having me. I'm excited.  [00:01:35] Jason: So, Derek, you're doing a lot of unique things there and you've had a lot of success and things have been going really well. I'm excited to to, you know, get into you know, some of this unique stuff that you're doing and chat about this topic of 'from crisis to connection.' [00:01:53] Jason: And so to kick things off, tell everybody how did you get into— when did you first figure out you were an entrepreneur? Like how'd you get into business? And then maybe that'll segue into starting a property management business and so on. Give us some back background on you.  [00:02:10] Derek: I still struggle viewing myself as an entrepreneur to be honest with you in that way. [00:02:16] Derek: Like I've done sales stuff growing up and my parents are like, you suck at this. Like, you're not going to be able to make a living.  [00:02:23] Jason: They didn't believe in you.  [00:02:23] Derek: No, they're very self-aware. Like, I mean, trust me, I understood like they were right. But like, what was funny is like on the sales, like I couldn't close but I could present and I could put on a show and make it entertaining. [00:02:37] Derek: And so, like, one of the things that I did is I sold Cutco knives. Okay. But I couldn't close. But I would have more people like, and I'd have a longer list of referrals of people's friends after the end of each one of the presentations than anyone else. But I couldn't close, so I was getting, I made a decent amount of money, because you got paid per presentation. [00:02:57] Derek: And they couldn't figure it out. And they sat in on one of my things and they're like, "you need to close the deal." And I'm like, "I don't know how to close the deal." I just, you know, and then I ran a snow cone shack, and that was probably one of the funnest things I ever did. And we went crazy with stuff. [00:03:10] Derek: Couldn't make any money, me and my partner, but we had a good time and made an impact. We had came up with all sorts of crazy combinations and all this time I was in the title industry when I was running that and marketing and just built relationships and that was all my sales, was just relationships. [00:03:26] Derek: I can't do hard sales like it makes me sick. Yeah. But the relationships and all that stuff comes naturally. And so, I mean that's—  [00:03:35] Jason: and property management really is a business of relationships.  [00:03:38] Derek: It is.  [00:03:38] Jason: And people that lose sight of that think it's some sort of tech game or like a lot of these businesses have felt failed. [00:03:45] Jason: They just, they don't get it.  [00:03:47] Derek: As you say, the deals close at the speed of trust. Yeah. I do say, and so see, I listen sometimes and sometimes, enough to gather a few things. But being able to work on those relationships and just see people has like, been that secret elixir. [00:04:03] Derek: And so when I was looking to start a property management company my parents were like, "you're an idiot. You failed at everything else." Even my wife was nervous. The only thing that convinced her was we were in the process of building a house and we were going to rent out our town home. And she's like, "there's too many property management companies where we're at. I'm not going to pay, you know, who's going to pay 10% or whatever for this, like, when you can do it yourself." And I said, "okay, you're going to do this on your own." And so I just let her do it. And she had asked questions and I said, "Google it." And as someone who's married yourself, you can understand how well that went over. [00:04:39] Derek: And so, and then hearing everyone's stories and different things like that, my wife, by the time we had it rented out was like, "okay, you have my support." And then the, you know, the rest is history. Rough first year, and then we've just been on a rocket ride since.  [00:04:53] Jason: So you, how important do you feel like it was to get your wife's support? [00:04:59] Jason: I've been the entrepreneur that didn't have support in a previous marriage, like that was a rough thing.  [00:05:05] Derek: Oh it's a hundred percent. Like, I mean, it's the only way I could do like, I mean, so about six months in, so I didn't take, really take a paycheck the first year. We were living off savings. Yeah. It was kind of a struggle. My partner was looking at me like, "you're going to make this work." And once again, like, I struggled one, you know, with hard sales and the hard part that I didn't realize that, you know, I was marketing for title companies, so I had all these real estate agent contacts. But it's a town. It's notorious. When you try something new, they're like, "we know you as the title guy. We don't know you as the property management guy. That's a different thing." And so I was like, "oh they know me, trust, and they sent me all these deals to close for them, you know, for the client. [00:05:42] Derek: So they're going to try. And they're like, it's different. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. So I didn't anticipate that, but I remember one time, my partner had set up with the real estate brokerage he was in the management company or the broker of the business. Were going to start a statewide management company. [00:05:59] Derek: And they were going to have me run Cedar and we had a conversation and my partner was laughing because I was, I had no leverage. But I was kind of belligerent because I'm like, your software sucks. Like, I know I don't have a whole lot of clients, but like why would I ask them to take a step down on the level of service? And with that being said, I'm like, I have a family to provide for, and I'm like, the dream's dead. Everyone's right, right? I can't do sales. I'm not an entrepreneur. I can't work for anyone else either, so I'm like, I'm kind of screwed.  [00:06:26] Jason: I'm unemployable. That kind of means you're an entrepreneur if you're unemployable. [00:06:30] Derek: I mean, that's the funny thing is my family's like, "why don't you find a job?" I'm like, "I tried." All these companies, like, "dude, you've done so many cool, amazing things. We love you and everything. We can't hire you." "Why not?" "You just don't fit our culture." And I'm like, "**** you!" Oh yeah that's probably why I don't fit your culture. [00:06:45] Derek: Right. And so like I had at that point decided I was going to sell out and I'm like, okay, I'll work for something else and if not something else, I'll just kind of, this will be the next step. I'll just balance and then figure out where I go to next.  [00:06:56] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:06:57] Derek: But I woke up at like three o'clock in the morning and I'm just like, I can't do it. [00:07:00] Derek: I can't do it. And told my wife, I said, "I can't sell." And she's like, "okay, but when are you going to make money?" "I don't know. You know, I just know I can't sell." And I went to my business partner and I'm like, "I can't sell." And he looks at me and he is like, "I've seen you do dumber stuff. So, okay. What's your plan?" [00:07:21] Derek: "I don't have a plan." And then I remember. So I'm just like, all right. Like I have to figure this out. Two weeks later, an agent buddy of mine like calls me and he is like, "I am tired of my wife doing property management. Come in, let's talk." And at this point I think I was like at 40, 40 units. And you know, accounting's not my strong point. [00:07:41] Derek: because everyone's like, "oh, 40 units, you should been making money." I'm like, I was just trying to figure out the flow of money. Like that's not my strong point.  [00:07:47] Jason: And so this is the crisis. And the crisis to connection is like, you were just like trying to figure out mm-hmm we need money. Mm-hmm. [00:07:55] Derek: And and so he goes, "here's the deal you pay me, you know, one month's management fee and they're all yours. Here's 25 units." We did the math, it was like five grand. And what's funny is my business partner's like "you do not make a deal without talking to me." We were 50: 50 partners and we'd always joke around about like, Hey, I'm going to use my 50% majority and make this decision. [00:08:17] Derek: And we just, you know, this is kind of, we were interacted. So I came out of that meeting and I said, "I'm buying them." And he was pissed. He is, like "I told you—" and I said, "dude, it's $5,000." And he's like, oh yep, nope, we're good. We're good. We didn't tell anyone. Didn't make a big announcement. Yeah. But there was something about that moment like that led to credibility. [00:08:37] Derek: For whatever reason there was just a threshold of units. All of a sudden, now I'm at 65 and I was like, oh, like you're kind of legit. And then it's just kind of has been spiraling since then. And within six months I'd hired my first employee. because we were at a hundred units and I was adding 20 that month. [00:08:51] Derek: But but yeah, so that's just kind of the story and I still laugh because I don't view myself as an entrepreneur. It's just kind of, I view myself as a guy who's really good at relationships and magic happens with that.  [00:09:03] Jason: So, and you know, you mentioned at the beginning that you really, that's kind of your area of genius is you're really good at connecting with people and building relationships. [00:09:13] Jason: One of the things that I, you know, that one of the gifts I see in you that I've noticed, you know, as a coach is you genuinely care about people. You genuinely care about your team. You genuinely care about your clients, you care about the tenants. And I think it's that care that's really allowed you to have the success that you've been seeing. [00:09:35] Derek: Oh, a hundred percent. Like we, we laugh all the time. I said people as a whole are awesome and so good. There's so many incredible things. Individuals can be idiots, some, you know, me included. I'm an individual. But by and large, I mean that's,  [00:09:48] Jason: That's a very different belief though. And there's a lot of people that are like, "I don't like people, but I like you." [00:09:53] Jason: You know, or stuff like this. My wife's Sarah, she's like, "I don't generally like people, but I like you." You know, she likes Derek, you know, but Yeah. But you have this belief that people are awesome and I think that belief is, you know, that's a unique belief.  [00:10:07] Derek: Yeah. And I, you know, and especially in property management, like I, I mean, "oh, you're going to get yelled at all the time." [00:10:12] Derek: And I'm like, yeah. I mean, yeah. You know, sometimes it's deserved, sometimes it's not. And as long as you can separate those, like that's what's amazing. Like sometimes you're like, we failed and I can't control how people are going to respond. because if people fail me sometimes I don't have a proportional response. [00:10:27] Derek: So why would I expect anyone else to act differently? And so we just own it and try to fix it and apologize and, you know.  [00:10:36] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that another attribute, you know, there's generally, you know, the idea of not having to be perfect or look perfect all the time, there's a certain level of humility. [00:10:48] Jason: You joke about yourself like a lot, and you know, you, even from the outset of this, you know this podcast you recognize you're not this perfect unflawed person. And I think there's, that level of humanity, it's disarming, it allows people to feel even safer. And I think a lot of property managers listening could take note is they're always trying to maintain this perfect perception that there is this thing that never has a problem. [00:11:15] Derek: Oh, like, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's life's messy. I'm messy. Like, I mean, like everyone's messy. Yeah. We try to put on this show, you know? And I mean, that's one of the things, like part of the, my background coming into property management has given me the different perspective. I mean, so I served on the board for the local homeless shelter. [00:11:37] Jason: Okay.  [00:11:37] Derek: And so, like I saw on a day-to-day basis, like people going through crisises and seeing them and realizing, I'm like I was one or two decisions, or one or two friends from being there.  [00:11:50] Jason: Yeah.  [00:11:50] Derek: And so being able to recognize like that going, you know, if I would've gone to this, or if I would've done this, or, I mean, I can count on one hand, like times in my life that I'm like, you know, that was divine intervention. [00:12:05] Derek: I had a friend gimme a call at the right time and invite me to go do that before I did something stupid. You know, and it's like, I tell my kids all the time, I said, you're going to make mistakes. You know, the deci the hard part is making sure that those mistakes aren't life changing. And unfortunately, outside of a few, like big obvious ones, you never know when those life changing ones are until you know they're past. [00:12:27] Jason: You know, I really believe we are the creators of our own reality, and I believe that your belief that in divine intervention, belief in God being able to take care of you and that you trusting in that has allowed you to avoid some of those. Because I'm sure when you were talking to people at that local homeless shelter, you're getting this perspective, oh man, they just made one bad decision that led to this. Or they were just like, I'm one step away from this. But they probably, a lot of them you probably picked up, they have a different belief system than you do.  [00:13:01] Derek: Yeah. And I mean, what's fascinating though, when you work with those, they're generally trying to change. [00:13:06] Jason: Yeah.  [00:13:07] Derek: And this is a perspective of it, and it was eyeopening. So like when we set up our first transitional house for men and women coming out of homelessness and domestic violence, my kids still call it the stinky house. Like it was the stink, it was stinky house, it was a dump. [00:13:18] Derek: And like we fixed it up. Like, I mean, I've told the story like Home Depot, like called and walked off the job. because they were pulling up carpet. There was like dog crap, like somehow shoved underneath the— like, like, it was horrible. They had like 20 people and 15 dogs and 13 cats living here before this owner bought it. [00:13:37] Jason: Yeah.  [00:13:38] Derek: And he wanted to do student housing. And we're like, and I was like, all right, let's do it.  [00:13:42] Jason: Because all their parents paying the bill want them to be in that property.  [00:13:45] Derek: This was not like student housing at the time, but he is like. You know, as far I'm like, and it was still, to this day, it's like one of the best property pitches I've ever done. [00:13:53] Derek: And I'm still kind of a little bitter and I still manage this owner. I'm like, "we've done a lot of good with this house. But remember that pitch?" And it is like, "I know," and that pitch would've cost me a lot of money that I wouldn't have been able to make. It was awesome. It's what sold me on you and trust me. [00:14:09] Derek: because you put a lot of work into that. And so we pivoted because it's, you know, it was funny. It's like going back to divine intervention. Yeah, he spoke numerous times. He's like, "this house was speaking to me." Like, he's just like, "I have to have this house. I don't know why. I don't know what, despite everything," and so, you know, we kind of pitched and we made it up and worked with the homeless shelter going, here's what we think, there's, here's some funding. [00:14:33] Derek: Like, let's just figure it out. And he was on board and you know, so when we moved the first three in, they were so, so ecstatic. Hearing their stories, one of them grew up not far from where I grew up, and I laughed because, you know, he left where he grew up because he didn't want to get into drugs. [00:14:52] Derek: Lo and behold, he came to Cedar City and he got into drugs. So he left where I'm like, "dude, yeah, no wonder like you, you didn't do drugs in that area where you grew up? Like that's impress— but you got into it in Cedar?" he goes, "I know it doesn't track. I left to get away and then it was just. It just, you know," and it goes back to the connections that he made and the friends that he made and  [00:15:12] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:13] Derek: And all of that, their ability,  [00:15:14] Jason: ... really that's who you are and how you're showing up and your beliefs and what you feel you deserve and what you you feel you're worth. And so really boils down to your internal belief. [00:15:24] Jason: And your internal beliefs really, I think, shape the environment that we allow or create around ourselves.  [00:15:30] Derek: Yeah. And these people like with, as their belief group, like their ability to celebrate like small victories.  [00:15:37] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:38] Derek: That were just like, you wouldn't think we're that big. I remember they threw a party—  [00:15:42] Jason: Things they didn't have that most people would take for granted. [00:15:44] Derek: Yeah. I mean, the one got a job and he was able to hold it for a week, and so they threw a party. They bought a big old huge cake. I don't know how they got the money held. And they're like—  [00:15:53] Jason: yeah.  [00:15:53] Derek: They're like, "he kept his job for a week. He hasn't done that for years. Like, we're going to throw a party. You should come." [00:15:59] Jason: Right. Celebrate the wins.  [00:16:01] Derek: I mean, they had a cake and they were celebrating and like the music was loud, and I'm just like, " you kept a job for a week and you're celebrating?" Like, it was just I'm like, is this real life? Like this is, we're celebrating? I'm like, this is like common sense. Like, you know what I mean? [00:16:18] Derek: But it was a big deal for them. And then, you know, same thing with—  [00:16:21] Jason: it's common for you and it's maybe common for others, but for some that's not common. And so, yeah. We got to celebrate progress.  [00:16:29] Derek: Like, it was amazing. And just, you know, when you look at their sobriety coins and stuff they get at, those are always huge things. [00:16:35] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:36] Derek: To do and being able to, you know, and they have to fight. Like, holy crap. Yeah. I mean, I wish people fully understood how hard they have to fight.  [00:16:45] Jason: Well, I think it was Alex Hormozi one of my former mentors and coaches, and he was also in a mastermind with me. He mentioned that you don't get self-esteem or self-worth by saying a bunch of affirmations in the mirror. [00:16:59] Jason: You get it by getting evidence. And these little wins that they're getting is giving them some evidence that maybe is in conflict with the current identity they've been holding.  [00:17:09] Derek: Yeah, I mean. When you look at these people, I mean, they, you know, and I love them. I love that population.  [00:17:15] Derek: Like it, it's amazing. [00:17:17] Derek: The insights that I've gotten into life and everything is unbelievable. And it's changed the way I operate my business and understanding to make sure that we can try to find support because you really are, there's these moments as we hinted at that you know, like, I think sometimes we have an inkling that these are moments, right? [00:17:37] Derek: But not always. And there's these moments that if you can get the support or the right person, like they're life changing and they go it makes a huge impact. Way more than it would on my life.  [00:17:49] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:49] Derek: But it's huge on theirs.  [00:17:51] Jason: Yeah. So I mean, and this goes to your kind of core values that you've kind of built your business and your life around is, you know, related to contribution and making a difference. [00:18:02] Derek: Yeah, I mean, it's something, I mean, my, my parents raised me that way and I laugh like they, they always think that they failed me. because I just I'm different and quirky as you can attest. Yeah. And they just are like, you are not our child. Like we don't know where you came from. [00:18:17] Derek: And I just said, "I am both of your guys' best and worst qualities on steroids. So you struggle because you're looking in a mirror going, that could have been me. And instead we made it and now we can't control it." But I know my dad and mom were always heavily involved in different things and I watched that. [00:18:35] Derek: My poor kids have experienced too. I don't think they're going to be as heavily involved because they've seen more of the bad as opposed to the good.  [00:18:41] Jason: Okay.  [00:18:41] Derek: Sometimes with being willing to put yourself out there and be involved. And we're in a small town, so my kids can't escape dad. They go over, "oh you're Derek's boy, or you're Derek's daughter," and they just go, "yes." [00:18:54] Jason: right.  [00:18:54] Derek: But those values and being involved and realizing, you know, that was something that was instilled. Like, I can make a difference. And just, you know, my parents didn't put it this way. It's what I tell my kids all the time. I'm like, "you can go far in life. Just don't suck as a human being." Like you really just don't suck as a human being. [00:19:12] Derek: Like I said, my kids, my parents didn't put it that way. But they, I mean, it's through their actions and  [00:19:18] Jason: stuff.  [00:19:18] Jason: Are your parents, I mean, you strike me as pretty extroverted and connect and comfortable with people. Are your parents pretty introverted?  [00:19:26] Derek: Actually, my mom after the divorce, like she came out like pretty extroverted. [00:19:32] Derek: My dad was pretty extroverted. Okay. I grew up pretty introverted and it's still like my social battery, like it winds down and it's like, yeah I'm on a battery. When that battery's done, I just like but I've trained myself and I've just had to do so many different things that I'm like, I put myself out there and here's what it is, and that's how I have to get stuff done. [00:19:52] Derek: It's the only way to accomplish it. And then I can decompress and not have to worry about people until the next time.  [00:19:58] Jason: So, yeah, I'm very much the same way. I would categorize myself as an ambivert. So give people some context of kind of your journey here. How long ago did you start this property management business? [00:20:11] Derek: I started nine years ago in July.  [00:20:13] Jason: Okay. Nine years ago. And how many units are you at right now?  [00:20:18] Derek: We're at 650 units. Nice.  [00:20:20] Jason: Okay. Yeah, and I generally don't see people break four or 500 units unless they've got really good culture and a really good team. It just generally doesn't happen. And so you've built kind of a, it sounds like a unique culture. [00:20:33] Jason: You had mentioned earlier you didn't fit other people's culture. I. Like it was hard for you to get a job or stay in a job because you just didn't fit. In what way did you not fit that culture and how has that changed the type of business you've created around you? Because you have a very different culture in your business. [00:20:49] Jason: Obviously you fit in it because you're at the helm.  [00:20:52] Derek: It's my culture.  [00:20:53] Jason: It's yours. Yeah. It's your culture. So you built the business that didn't exist that you could work at. You know?  [00:21:00] Derek: So I'm pretty outspoken. And that doesn't always fit with the typical corporate job or working for other people. [00:21:07] Derek: because I'm not afraid to be like, "this is dumb and here's why I think it's dumb." And then with that, I think the other thing is I'm not as risk averse. I was really risk averse at one point in time, and then I got fired. And at that point I was like. Yeah, screw it. Like, like I survived once and so like, let's try this. [00:21:27] Derek: Um, Why not? You know, I like, but I also do a lot of research, so like, what seems risky the most like, is just the next step and it's logical. And I'm like, okay, yeah, we're going to do that. And you know why? Everyone's like, I, you know, I can't believe you're doing that. And I'm like, why? Like, this is the next step. [00:21:46] Derek: Why are you doing what you do? Like. You're selling yourself short. Like this is not risky to me. Yeah.  [00:21:51] Derek: And so because I just, you know, you get all the things in place and then you make the leap and you know there's going to be mistakes going back to, you know, the messiness. You're like, okay, I make that leap at 60, 70% certain and, you know, and realize that 30% may kill me off. [00:22:06] Derek: But because there's always stuff I miss, but, you know, life's more enjoyable that way and so those cultures just don't fit. You know, a lot of corporate and working for someone else. And then with us, like, you know, we try to let the girls in my office, I have three full-time employees. [00:22:20] Derek: And then and then a virtual assistant that, you know, they can speak openly and sometimes that is pretty open and honest with both of us with all of us. Yeah. And can be pretty gruff, but that's what we need. And like I tell them all, I said, "if you think I'm being an idiot, you can tell me I'm an idiot. Just, you know, make sure you have the evidence."  [00:22:37] Jason: How would you describe the culture then in your business? Like everybody has a voice. You mentioned outspoken, you mentioned basically, it sounds like you're willing to take feedback and you know, and I would imagine that allows the business to innovate and move forward much faster than most companies that don't foster environment of feedback or honesty. [00:22:58] Derek: I mean, there's a lot of times the girls in my office are right. They see stuff that I don't see. Yeah.  [00:23:03] Jason: If you're relying on team members, it's really dumb to think you've got all of the best ideas and nobody else is as smart as you.  [00:23:10] Derek: Well, and they, and we all balance each other out. [00:23:12] Derek: Like, you know, as you in your coaching terms I'm the visionary, right? The craziest thing you ever told me when we did the jumpstart.  [00:23:19] Jason: Yeah. [00:23:19] Derek: And I still laugh. For this past year and I wanted to, I brought it up at DoorGrow Live as part of the breakout session. When we did that, you're like, dude, you thrive in chaos. And I'm like, nah, yeah, maybe like, they're like, no, that's your life. And then as I was going through and putting together that breakout session, I'm just like. Jason was right, like is the girls are all stressed and everything. And my wife's like, what is going on? I'm like, this is amazing. [00:23:45] Derek: Like every said, you know, I got to figure out the student housing thing. And then we got this and we got this. And I'm like, this is fantastic. My mind's on overload. I'm going a million miles an hour, and I'm just like, this is great. All well, the girls are like ready to be balled, you know, baller than me pulling their hair out and, you know, and all of this stuff. [00:24:02] Derek: But that's where the balance comes in.  [00:24:04] Derek: And so, because with a visionary, there's certain tendencies that are pretty horrible and self-destructive that I've learned.  [00:24:12] Jason: Yeah.  [00:24:12] Derek: That have, it's been painful lessons over the years. [00:24:16] Derek: Which is why like, we spent the last three years really just cleaning up. Most of the stuff is still cleaning up our database from like eight years ago. That's like, why is not all this information in the property? I was just running, you know, who has time for that? [00:24:29] Derek: And so having that balance has been huge to kind of tone down those different aspects of my personality. So that we can move forward in a way that works and fit that's much better for us, much better for our owners that we work for, and much better for our tenants.  [00:24:50] Jason: Yeah. Well, you know, yeah I definitely can thrive in chaos and I think those that a lot of visionaries that might be like that, that are listening, that, you know, there's a certain amount of chaos that we feel really effective in while the everybody else are like freaking out. Sometimes I call it the Amon principle because like you've got, I was raised Mormon, and in that, there's this story where like, they're running around, freaking out. "We're going to get killed by the king, because the, these bad guys scatter our flocks." And Amon was the one that was like, "Hey. There's chaos. Here's an opportunity. I can create something out of chaos." And that he was able to show up as a leader. And everybody's like, "yeah, we'll do whatever you say because we're all going to die probably." So anything's better than dying. So they're like, let's do what this guy says and instantly is leading a group, even though he is the new guy. [00:25:40] Jason: Those are those in Myers-Briggs that have a P at the end that are listening. Like the raw material of chaos and new ideas and different things allows you to formulate some new thinking and to innovate and to create stuff. [00:25:52] Jason: Whereas those js, they're like, they're the ones that kind of keep us stable and they think inside the box and the box is a nice container and we need those team members that like can keep us a little bit, you know, protected and away from the, a little bit too crazy. And sometimes I jokingly call them the crusher of all hopes and dreams, but they keep us grounded and they keep us connected to reality and they protect the business, and they help us know when we're getting a little too wild, but we're the ones that stretch them outside the box. [00:26:22] Jason: We're the ones that help them lean into new ideas. And so I think depending on what you are as a business owner, we need that alternative. We need somebody that kind of can stretch us into growth or stretch us into maybe constraint and into some guardrails and some protective measures. And having a good planning system eventually and having team members that have a voice, I think is really important. [00:26:48] Jason: So. You built the business and built this culture and in nine years getting to 650 units that's, you know, that's no small feat. That's pretty decent growth. How have you gotten most of the doors up to this point?  [00:27:02] Derek: This is what's crazy. So when I was asked to do that breakout session and Sarah was like, "Hey, you did all this stuff, how did you do it?" And I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. And so we went back and we ran the numbers and so 88% of my growth has come from like my network and just those relationships.  [00:27:22] Jason: They say your network is your net worth, right? Yeah. So,  [00:27:25] Derek: so I mean, current owners expanding their portfolio, which is like awesome, right? [00:27:29] Derek: Because that means you're doing a really good job. They're like, "Hey, I'm comfortable, I want to buy more." [00:27:33] Jason: Yeah.  [00:27:34] Derek: Then they refer their friends. And then just kind of my group of friends that I have and then agents relationships that I've had over the years. Yeah. And so really only like 12% of my business has come from Google over the years, which was eyeopening. [00:27:48] Derek: Yeah. You know, because you hate when I say this phrase, but I don't know any other way like.  [00:27:53] Derek: You know, the really the ethoses of our companies, we just try not to suck. And I'm like, that was like the most—  [00:27:58] Jason: yeah,  [00:27:58] Derek: the best validation of that philosophy. I haven't figured out a better way to say it, to make it more Jason approved. [00:28:06] Derek: But it was awesome. Like, I mean, and so, and it was just validation for all the crazy stuff we've done. Like the owner's conference we do, the owner's gifts.  [00:28:16] Jason: Yeah, you do some unique things.  [00:28:18] Derek: Like just all those different things that it was like, alright, like the craziness worked. Like it was, you know, I have my own way of doing things. [00:28:25] Derek: I have my own way that I view the world. And that was like the best validation ever. Like it was awesome. And it was empowering because it just. You know, it played into my strengths as opposed to making, you know, cold calls and trying to do that way where I'm not as good at. It was a slower growth. [00:28:41] Derek: It was a slower burn. But now it's just— [00:28:44] Jason: now you can build systems for growth and we're working on some stuff with you, which is, which  [00:28:48] Derek: is the step that we're, that I'm on now, so.  [00:28:51] Jason: So, you know, there's a lot of property managers listening that maybe they have maybe more similar personality to you and they're good with people and they can make friends. [00:29:01] Jason: But one of the challenges I've seen with some of these individuals. They get stuck in this thinking as a business owner, that they have to be a business owner and what that looks like, and maybe it's more that corporate environment and they're like, I got to step out of being the guy that's connecting and networking and creating relationships and friends, and I've got to run this business and do all this stuff that's like not even aligned with their personality. [00:29:22] Jason: And so they really, it prevents them from being able to grow and creates a business that makes a miserable job for them. And then there's those listening that are like, "man, I suck at friends. I don't believe that people are awesome, as Derek says. And I just, I'm not into connecting with people," and they need to maybe. [00:29:40] Jason: You know, get a business development manager or salespeople or that like people, that can connect with people to bring in business and that's not their strength, you know? And so I think it's really awesome that you've been able to focus on building a business that you actually enjoy being in where most business owners think they need to build a business to please everybody else. [00:30:01] Derek: Well, and this is really a credit to you, Jason. So, I mean, I've been with you just over a year now.  [00:30:06] Derek: Like I stumbled across you. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's  [00:30:09] Jason: been a while. Little while. I didn't realize it's been that long.  [00:30:11] Derek: Yeah. Like, just kind of stumbled across you. because we'd, I had owners tell me like, "Hey, you need to expand up north and manage our properties. It's no longer a question of of if, you can no longer tell me no, it's a matter of when." I'm like, I can't do that, that my mind doesn't work that way. There's a reason I've been telling you no for years.  [00:30:27] Jason: Yeah.  [00:30:28] Derek: And so like we just stumbled across you and you know, I signed on pretty quick. [00:30:33] Derek: Yeah, because, you know, you spoke to me like you understood kind of at a level that I'm like, yeah, you know where I'm at. I understand,  [00:30:39] Jason: I understand your level of crazy for sure.  [00:30:41] Derek: I'm still that, like I'm in parts of the business that I'm not good at. I've pulled back so much and I'm in the process of pulling back more. [00:30:51] Jason: Well, what do you feel like over this year, what are some of the changes that you feel like you've made or that have been beneficial? How did. DoorGrow, me, Sarah, team help. Like what's changed?  [00:31:03] Derek: So one, trusting those that I hire, like I've had amazing staff, you know? [00:31:08] Derek: Yeah. But I'm also like, I need to do this. I'm the owner. And so being able to offload some of that. And so when you look the biggest thing is, you know, we all have certain ways that we think our business needs to look right, certain positions, we need to do this, we need to do that. And you gave me the freedom, and this is going to be kind of counterintuitive, but the time studies. [00:31:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:31:32] Derek: You know, like was eye opening. because it's like, oh yeah, let's just take that off the girls' plate. Like, they don't like doing that. Why am I having them do that? Like, okay, so where does this need to go? And so being able to shift some stuff and now like now it doesn't matter, like what it looks like. It's based on my current staff. [00:31:51] Derek: And you know what I need and what the business needs. And so now like as I scale, I don't know what it's going to look like and nor do I care.  [00:32:00] Jason: Because you feel like you have a system for figuring out  [00:32:04] Derek: Yeah. Like, I mean, you, I remember you telling me that you know, each progressive time study, you're going to get more mad at yourself. [00:32:13] Derek: And I didn't believe it. because at first I'm like, oh yeah, like I love doing the showing. It's like, no problem. You know, I'll keep the girls in the office. Like, like I said, I love people. So me interacting with people you know, a lease and everything's like, dude, I love this property. [00:32:25] Derek: Like, cool, what do you do? Like, and just be able to like, I want to rent from this guy. And all of that. And then just certain other things. And so then the second time study I did, I was like a little more aggravated. And then the one I did in January with the girls in my office, because I said, we're going to do one and, you know, and kind of get some stuff into place for as we continue to grow and what that needs to look like. My whole thing was like, why am I doing this? He was all like, I was angry. Yeah. And Shaunna, as we're going through this, she goes, "your whole thing's angry." I'm like, "yeah, I'm shocked." [00:32:53] Derek: Like this was the worst thing ever. Like I was pissed. I'm like, why am I still doing showings? This needs to get off my plate.  [00:32:58] Derek: And she's like, you love doing showings? And I'm like, I do, but it's stupid for me to be doing showings. Like it just makes no sense. And so like over time having that and looking at the girls time studies and seeing certain trends, I'm like, okay, like yeah, I've got this. [00:33:13] Derek: I'm like, I have data and we're going to do another one here at the end of June to kind of make our next step because we're looking at another hire that we're trying to figure out exactly. This one will be, honest and frank conversations between me and my staff because I'm like, this is what I think we need and we can have them do. [00:33:28] Derek: And I think this is what they think going to be and well, so it may come to rock paper scissors, we'll see how that how that's decided. But having that time study and realizing. Like systems and people, you know, peoples and processes, right? You can, as long as you have those in place, you can scale.  [00:33:42] Jason: So for those listening, they're like, "time study. Like what? Like tracking your time?" Like could you explain to them the time study process and why it's beneficial?  [00:33:50] Derek: So it's basically every 15 minutes, here's what I did. And was it, you know, was I interrupted? Is this something I enjoy doing? Is this something I don't enjoy doing? Yeah. And so you can learn, you know, how to minimize the interruptions, you know, if there's certain things. [00:34:04] Derek: And then, you know, how do you get some stuff that you don't enjoy doing as much? You know, there's always the nature of it. There's always going to be things you don't enjoy doing, right? Yeah. But if you can kind of farm those off and then let those focus on. You know, those that are, be good at that be able to take that on because they actually enjoy doing that. [00:34:24] Derek: I think you described it to me like, because it was like, this doesn't make any sense. You're like, how many plumbers are there in the world and they love it.  [00:34:32] Jason: Yeah,  [00:34:33] Derek: they love swimming in the muck and here's what it is and they make good money with it. And I'm like, that makes sense to me. Like it just, it's, I'm like, oh yeah, there are a lot of plumbers. [00:34:40] Derek: Yeah, there,  [00:34:41] Jason: there's people that love doing everything that you don't enjoy doing. There's somebody out there that loves doing that and I think the time study, the purpose of it, isn't just to see where your time goes, there is that advantage, but it's really to figure out, not just time, but it's to figure out energy, like which things are giving you life, which things are taking it away? [00:34:59] Jason: What are the plus signs? What are the minus signs? And I love that you're already having team members do it because if you want to keep team members, and keep them happy and have really good culture and really good team, you want to move them towards their areas of genius, the things that they're naturally inclined to be great at in their personality. [00:35:15] Derek: Well, and it also like the way we did it, I had, I promised the girls, I said, I'm not looking at what you're doing. I know you're doing your job.  [00:35:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:35:22] Derek: And they had all come from a corporate environment, so when they're hearing time studies, they like, there was huge fear. [00:35:27] Derek: There's a reason it was took nine months after I hired you, before I was finally like, you need to do this, right? Like, I'm going to die on this sword and you're going to have to trust me that I'm not looking at going, "Hey, like why are you doing this instead of you doing this?" and so when I went to with Shaunna, like I looked at it and we went through, I was like, man, we're taking a lot of phone calls. [00:35:48] Derek: Is there ways we can do that? And not that we had to make out actions on any of that right now, but it's like it started the conversation that now even six months later are starting to come to fruition that, that look, hey, like we are still dealing with a lot of this. We're dealing with a lot of this. Is there ways we can do this? [00:36:04] Derek: Things that I've put on the back burner for years, I'm like, I really need to look into this. That, like, looking at it, I'm like, oh yeah, this is like crisis. Like I've failed my staff, right?  [00:36:14] Jason: Yeah.  [00:36:15] Derek: And so kind of put some of those solutions in place and get answers for them and make things like that work. [00:36:19] Derek: So it was eyeopening, but it doesn't really. You don't matter how it looks. I mean, so like, I joke all the time, you know, at one point in time my office staff, because you're used to, when you hear property management, like, oh, you have a leasing agent, you have a maintenance coordinator, you have, you know, your office manager and the grocery, oh, you have a regional manager. [00:36:39] Derek: My staff at one point in time was a student life coordinator, a housing advocate, and an office queen. That was her technical term. Right. We even gave her a crown. When I went to London, I found a shirt that had a queen. And so like, we got her that, right. It was, it was on her business cards and everything. [00:36:54] Derek: Okay. But it doesn't matter. Like, and titles don't matter. Like, it's just a matter of putting them in the position to where they and the business can succeed.  [00:37:04] Jason: I mean, really a lot of business owners are trying to optimize their team through micromanagement and through KPIs and through metrics and trying to force them to perform better. [00:37:14] Jason: And our philosophy at DoorGrow is quite different. Like we're basically by doing time studies and by setting really good culture and establishing that we're optimizing based on personalities. Which is fundamentally way more effective. And so your business from the ground up is becoming more and more optimized based on your talent and they're able to perform at a much higher level. [00:37:37] Jason: Also, by doing the time studies you had mentioned getting clear on interruptions. Interruptions of that hidden thief in a property management business I talk about. And so by getting your team conscious of these interruptions and taking a fresh look at them. Do they need to happen? Most property management companies give their tenants and their owners a completely blank check to steal their money, steal profitability, and to increase operational costs. [00:38:01] Jason: They're like, call us anytime. And they just think, "we just got to add more staff and more phones and more everything." And so by your team doing time studies, they're becoming aware of interruptions, interrupting each other, interrupting you, like all that. They're starting to become conscious that this—  [00:38:16] Derek: or me interrupting them. [00:38:18] Jason: Yes.  [00:38:18] Derek: Like that came out. I'm like,  [00:38:20] Jason: Derek interrupted me five times on my time study. What the hell, Derek, why? Like, why can't, that came up quite a bit. Let's find another system, right? because there's Derek's sneaker net in the office walking in, interrupting, and you know. Yeah. So taking away Derek's blank check to disrupt his own team maybe. [00:38:39] Derek: Yeah. That's when we build a new office it's mandatory that I have my own space. Right now we have an open concept.  [00:38:45] Jason: Right? I've had clients after doing time studies that start working from home and their office performance goes up because they're not screwing everything up all the time. [00:38:53] Derek: That's now that my son's moved out, that's in the works myself too, so.  [00:38:57] Jason: Okay. Yeah. So, so it sounds like a big thing that you've gotten so far in DoorGrow is just more and more clarity. And so you can make better decisions as a team.  [00:39:07] Derek: Well, and confidence. I didn't know what I was going to be doing like when we were looking to make that leap, I'm like, Hey, I pretty much told I have to, so I have to figure this out, you know, to manage Northern Utah. And now like, we kind of laugh because it's like, okay, we did that and now it's just here's what we require for other parts of the state. [00:39:27] Derek: And having done it once we're kind of like, why the hell not? Like, what's next? That's been eyeopening. And then the other thing that's awesome. I mean, so I mean you got a network of the other property managers that you can use their brain and they can use yours and brainstorm and I mean that was the magic of DoorGrow Live a couple weeks ago. [00:39:46] Jason: Yeah.  [00:39:46] Derek: Being able to network and visit with 40 other property managers and be able to just kind of hear their pains and brainstorm and  [00:39:53] Jason: Yeah.  [00:39:53] Derek: You know, I learned just as much from those that had 25 units as those that were larger. I mean, and everyone had an attitude of learning. I mean, one of the best meetings ever is like, so we had a breakfast that Sunday morning, Ed and Sylvie and I, and all three of us were just like. [00:40:09] Derek: And Sylvie's like, I mean, she's a small, Ed's over 300 and has done it all and seen it all. And I'm at 600 and we're just like sitting there taking notes with what Sylvie was saying, like, we're like, that's genius. You know? Yeah. And and so just learning kind of where everyone else is at and understanding you can learn things from other people like, and it,  [00:40:26] Jason: yeah. [00:40:26] Jason: Sylvie's super sharp and I mean, she's just starting her property management business. But she's worked with coaches and mentors that I've been around that like were in high ticket masterminds and different things. Like her mindset is different and so everybody's bringing different things to the table. [00:40:42] Jason: Like you said, you can't just judge them based off door count. Some people are bringing some amazing things to the table. I think also, you know, we at DoorGrow, we attract a different breed of property managers. Like these are growth-minded people. It's very different. They're kind of the cream of the crop of the industry. [00:40:58] Jason: They're unique people that would invest money into their personal growth and personal development and into improving the business and be willing to take feedback and ideas from outside themselves, from a coach.  [00:41:10] Derek: And it's crazy at the time they're doing it. I'm like, man, I wish, I mean, that's ballsy. You're like, I'm at 50 units and I'm going to spend this much in a coach. Now it's money well spent. I'm like, I would've saved myself a whole lot of time and hassle had I done that. You know, so it's like it's a genius. We help them get an ROI,  [00:41:25] Jason: they can afford us, that's for sure.  [00:41:27] Derek: Yeah. I'm like, that's, that's gutsy. [00:41:29] Jason: Yeah. Some people are, they're really gutsy. But I think on the surface it may seem gutsy, but what I've noticed is I also get a lot of people coming to me that have bought into franchises that have really struggled. They've spent tons of money and they've really struggled, and sometimes for years, and I'm like, we could have solved this stuff like in a quarter, like we could have solved so many of these problems or helped them figure out how to grow so much quicker and they've just struggled with bad ideas and bad advice and not growing and, you know, or just so much stress and all of this stuff is so solvable and, you know, and I was that hardheaded guy in the past where I was like I can do everything myself and I'm a smart guy and I can watch YouTube videos and do courses and read books and but once I started investing in myself and realizing I sucked and I couldn't. I was hitting limits because of, you know, just who I was at the time. [00:42:24] Jason: I needed mentors and coaches to help me collapse time. Like it just reduced the amount of time wasting and experimentation because I mean, all of our clients are smart. I think they're all smart. All of them could figure out everything eventually, but, you know, it could take a decade longer. Like you can collapse a decade into a year if somebody just said, "Hey, I've tried that stuff. That doesn't work. Do this." And that's my shameless plug or competitive advantage is I've been able to see inside probably thousands of property management companies and see what doesn't work and what does work. And I'm not in the fire, like I'm objective. I'm not attached to any particular ideas. And so, you know, and I think that's the thing is I'm like, well, I've seen this and this. You could try that, but here's what will probably happen. [00:43:12] Jason: And I'm usually right because I've just seen, I've got so much data to work with. You mentioned confidence and I've, this is something I've noticed in you, Derek. I feel like you've shifted a lot over this last year in terms of confidence, just going from where you were when we first had our first conversation to you presenting to a group at DoorGrowLive and talking. [00:43:32] Jason: What have you noticed in the stuff that you've been working on in yourself and with your team in your own shift in confidence? Or have you seen this?  [00:43:42] Derek: I think clarity is what it is. Like. because I mean, I'm a control freak in so many ways, right? [00:43:48] Derek: It's my business and— Yeah. And I laugh because I'm not, unless it comes to my branding, I'm not OCD enough to be a control freak.  [00:43:58] Jason: Yeah.  [00:43:59] Derek: My branding, it's a completely different thing. Like I am like the crazy stuff I do. I'm like, it speaks, it has to be me. And I'm pretty anal retentive, and it's just a completely different beast. [00:44:09] Derek: Like, but as far as my business, I was such a control freak. And to be able to let that go so that I can be like, oh yeah this is what I enjoy. This is what I need to focus on. I care about that stuff. But that's a Shaunna and I can like, and then like recognizing certain things like now in the employees because— I recognize where we're at, like how do we jump in, you know, to kind of, to help. But the more I've gotten out of the day to day actually, the better the business has gotten because I can focus on the more higher level vision stuff. [00:44:43] Derek: And here's what it looks like. I, like I tell as I explain to people, I say I hate puzzles, but I'm really good at putting together the border and finding the like pieces and going, okay, these are all the pieces that go to the car. This goes to the bush. There may be some tree pieces in there like in the bush. [00:45:05] Derek: because you know you're just going. But I'm really good at that and kind of getting it close and seeing where things need to be. And that's my talent. I'm not good at spending the time to finish the puzzle. I enjoy the puzzle when it's done. Like, because, oh, that's beautiful, right? But getting in there, like, but I love gathering the like stuff. [00:45:28] Derek: I'm going, okay, here's this. Like, here's what you need. You know?  [00:45:32] Derek: There's this tech that I think can solve this problem. Holy crap. Like this is next level stuff. I can see that future and I can make those pivots. Yeah. And I can see those more clearly now as I've gotten out of the day to day. And that's where that additional confidence from. [00:45:45] Derek: because I'm like, you know, before I'm like, can I do this now? I'm like, why the hell not? Like it's just, and I've done enough crazy things that I've had some basic confidence, but. I mean, when I came to you, I've had the crap beat out of me for like three straight years. because of the growth and trying to clean up the book, like so much cleanup because I was an like, I was just an idiot and didn't have the systems and processes in place. [00:46:06] Derek: And so now that those are still, and we're still building them and still, you know, tweaking them and figuring them out, but that's where I'm like, cool. I can do a lot cooler stuff for us that I love, you know, that are important to me as opposed to being in the day to day. And I never really, like, I laugh because I told you, I said I do enough research that when I do the crazy stuff, it doesn't feel crazy. For me, when we made that leap up north, it's like there's now just kind of these moments that I'm like, that was crazy. Like I, we went to the Utah Apartment Association or Utah, sorry, rental Housing Association conference.  [00:46:41] Derek: And I'm talking to people like, oh, you're in Cedar City. Like, what are you doing up here? [00:46:45] Derek: Oh, like, I had to come, I came up here for a week for this and. You know, I had to work on my properties up here and they're like looking at me like, wait, hold on, you're managing stuff up here and you're based out of there. Yeah. I mean, we have two listings, 300 miles apart and that's all sudden. I'm like, that's kind of crazy. [00:47:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:47:00] Derek: That's kind of insane, but it's just like, it just feels natural to me to where I'm like, unless you break it down like that, it just doesn't feel that crazy for me. Like, here's what it is. We got lucky on a few things and now like putting systems in place that I can continue to expand, know, where I want to expand. [00:47:15] Derek: And it's just like, yeah, we can make this happen. And that's more what we've, where I've gotten out of it. I always kind of had the crazy confidence to do crazy stuff. Now it's just like, oh, my business is no longer beating the crap out of me at the same level. And I can focus on what I enjoy. [00:47:29] Derek: Yeah.  [00:47:30] Jason: Well, I think that's maybe a good point to wrap up on is I think really it's been about helping you understand just yourself and helping you understand you so that you can build that business of your dreams. You can build the team around you that supports you. I mean, even from the very beginning and in the onboarding training, this is why I make sure that everybody's clear on the idea of the four reasons. Some of you maybe have heard me talk about on the podcast, I have a video on visionary versus operators, so they can kind of identify themselves and the more clarity we can give you on yourself and then doing time studies and figuring out your personality, then we can start to build the team and the business around you and get you out of those things. [00:48:08] Jason: And I find entrepreneurs make good decisions once they have better information. And the best information you can have is to really have clarity on yourself.  [00:48:15] Derek: I a hundred percent agree.  [00:48:17] Jason: So I'm really excited to see what you do over the next year or two. Like, I think you're going to have some big changes and some big shifts, and your business is just getting started. [00:48:26] Jason: I think you guys could easily be over a thousand units in the next year or two if you guys really put the pedal to that.  [00:48:31] Derek: That's open conversation in our office, which in the past, any of those conversations would've led to any of us being pelted with whatever was on their desk at the time. [00:48:41] Derek: And now it's just this is happening. What does it look like? I mean, and that's what's funny is like it's just really, we're just like, okay,  [00:48:46] Jason: there's kind of a new reality floating around in the office for  [00:48:48] Derek: the future. Well, it's a reality we already dealt with. Now we've just owned it and we're no longer fighting it at the same level that we used to. [00:48:55] Derek: Yeah. because we're getting stuff in place and you know, trying to minimize the chaos that is always there in property management. Anyways.  [00:49:03] Jason: Cool. Well, to wrap up, any parting words you would say to property managers that maybe were dealing with similar challenges of chaos or where you were at when you first came to us? Or, you know, something you want to say those listening that have property management businesses that might be struggling.  [00:49:21] Derek: You know, relationships matter. Like, they really do. I mean, like I said, that's how I built my business. That's how a lot of the stuff we've been able to do with the tenants and some of that focus that we've done, like those relationships matter. [00:49:31] Derek: People are people and they deserve to be treated as such, so, and it makes a huge difference.  [00:49:36] Jason: I, yeah, I think that would help every property management company's growth is just start to view people through a more positive lens and focus on relationships. Love it. Cool. Great. Parting words. [00:49:48] Jason: Derek, appreciate you coming out and hanging out with us on the DoorGrow Show. Do you want anyone to connect with you in any way or like any social media or anything?  [00:49:58] Derek: Best thing? Go to our website, netgainpm.com, N-E-T-G-A-I-N pm for property management.com. Yeah.  [00:50:05] Jason: And Derek, you're doing really cool stuff. [00:50:07] Jason: I love that you're kind of out of the box thinking and the stuff that you're doing to make things fun in your business. And like you mentioned, you do an owner conference where you have your owners and you do this virtually and you do some cool stuff. So it's exciting to watch you and I'm excited to see what you do over the next couple of years. [00:50:22] Jason: So it'd be awesome. So, sounds great. All right, thank you.  [00:50:26] Jason: So for those that are listening, if you are stuck. Or feel stagnant and you want to take your property management business to the next level, we would be honored to help. Reach out to us at doorgrow.com. Also, join our free Facebook community. We've got cool people in there like Derek, that are helpful just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. [00:50:49] Jason: And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a positive or review wherever you found this. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone, so let's grow together. Bye everyone. 

On today's special episode, we're diving deep into the world of cinema once again and picking the best movies across seven MORE iconic genres. From the most epic sequels to heart-melting romances, gripping crime dramas, unforgettable sports stories, edge-of-your-seat thrillers, jaw-dropping superhero films, and powerful biopics—we're covering it all.Whether you're a film buff or just looking for your next watch, this is the ultimate movie breakdown you don't want to miss. Let's debate, reminisce, and celebrate the stories that defined each genre.

Estimados oyentes, esta entrevista requirió que Aldo y Gloria se conectaran desde zonas rurales. Por lo tanto, la conexión a internet fue intermitente. Hay algunos momentos del episodio en los que puede resultar difícil comprender lo que se dice. Para mayor claridad, consulten la transcripción abajo. Gracias por su comprensión.Mis entrevistados en este episodio son Aldo Gonzalez y Gloria Romero López. Aldo es zapoteco de la comunidad de Guelatao de Juárez, Oaxaca, México. Ingeniero de formación, promueve el pleno reconocimiento y la implementación de los derechos de los pueblos indígenas. Trabaja en defensa de la biodiversidad local del maíz, especialmente de una variedad de maíz autofertilizante llamada olotón.Gloria es una mujer Mixteca que nacio en Lázaro Cardenas, Coicoyan de las Flores, Juxtlahuaca, Oaxaca. Curse sus estudios de ingeniería en Tecnologías de la información y comunicaciones en el Instituto Tecnológico Superior - San Miguel el Grande. Actualmente Realizó registros de Nacimientos en el Municipio de Coicoyan de las Flores. Ella gusta mucho platicar en Mixteco.Notas del Episodio* Las consecuencias al pueblo* El derecho a no migrar* Cambios atraves del NAFTA y el derecho a no migrar* “Yo tengo maiz, no necessito dinero”* La complejidad de las remesas* Las contradicciones y discriminaciones entre migrantes* La posibilidad del retorno masivo de migrantes* La violencia como causa de migracionTareaEl Derecho a No Migrar (Libro) - AmazonEl DERECHO A PERMANECER EN CASATranscripcion en espanol (English Below)Chris: [00:00:00] Bienvenido Aldo y bienvenida Gloria al podcast al fin de turismo. Gracias a ambos por estar dispuestos a hablar conmigo hoy sobre estos temas. Tengo curiosidad por saber si ustedes dos se están bien dispuestos a ofrecer una pequeña introducción o resumen sobre ustedes mismos.Ah, ado, no te escuchamos. Aldo: Bueno sobre mis viajes, bueno, no me dedico a viajar. Casi no tengo vacaciones. Pero por las cuestiones del trabajo me he tocado ir a diferentes lugares del mundo. Podríamos decir. Este básicamente por el trabajo que realizo? Más que ir a conocer los lugares a donde a donde me han invitado, lo que he hecho es ir a platicar con la gente que está en esos lugares sobre los problemas que tenemos aquí en la región.Los problemas que tenemos en México y [00:01:00] quien lo que me ha posibilitado, poder viajar a distintas partes ha sido el problema de la contaminación del maize transgénicos. Entonces eso ha hecho que, con esa bronca que peso en el año 2001, este yo haya tenido la posibilidad de ir a otros lugares a platicar un poco sobre ese problema en particular y muchos otros que se relacionan con él no o el tema de los transgénicos o el tema de los agroquímicos o el tema de el control de las corporaciones hacia la alimentación, hacia las semillas también.Entonces, digamos que en general, la mayoría de los viajes que yo he realizado están relacionados con estos acentos o con los derechos de los pueblos indígenas también. Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Y nos podrías decir donde te encuentres hoy? Aldo: Eh? Bueno, hoy estoy en Guelatao y es mi comunidad y estoy en las oficinas de la organización de mi organización, que es la unión de organizaciones de la Sierra Juarez Chris: Muchas gracias, [00:02:00] audo Aldo y gloria.Gloria: Sí, igual. Yo casi no he salido así del estado, pero sí conozco mucha gente que si emigra por lo regular a los estados unidos, es que es donde la mayoría de acá, pero casi no emigran mucho así hacia otros estados. Pero si la mayoría emigra para estados unidos, ya si tengo muchos vecinos, familia y mucho de acá de Coycoyan, si emigran más para allá que son para los estados unidos. Chris: Muy bien. Muchas gracias por eh, a tiempo con nosotros hoy. Entonces, aunque es temprano en la conversación, mi pregunta es sobre cómo han visto que el regreso de los migrantes a sus pueblos ha afectado a la comunidad en sus propios lugares o pueblos?Gloria: Sí en en cuando han cómo ha afectado la comunidad? Que muchos cuando regresan, pues ya tienen otras ideas, otras cultura, otra forma de ver la vida y a veces mucho ya no [00:03:00] quieren este participar así en las asambleas de la comunidad o ya vienen con otras técnicas, digamos, de cultivo y las técnicas que anteriormente habían acá, pues ya se van perdiendo y yo más cada veo como también esto afecta también en sus vidas personales, porque muchos cuando regresan ya regresan ya enfermos, cansados. En en el mejor de los casos, muchos ya regresan con dinero, no? Y eso hace que la gente que está en el pueblo, ve que como ellos les fue bien, pues también quieren emigrar y ya después ya son más personas que quieren migrar y ya se se hacen más y de idea de que, pues allá en estados unidos existe la oportunidad de que puedan mejorar sus vidas.Pero yo digo que así en ,general el impacto es un tanto positivo como [00:04:00] también negativo, porque igual, como digo, muchos regresan ya cansados, enfermos. Muchos igual dejan aquí sus familiares y cuanto regresan, pues sus familia ya no los encuentran, o algunos que dejan sus papás, cuando regresan sus papás ya, ya murieron o ha o esas situaciones que impacta así su vida personal.Chris: Gracias, Gloria. Aldo, querrías responder? Aldo: Aunque aquí en la comunidad de Guelatao, no hay muchos, no hay una migración tan alta como en otras comunidades cercanas. Digamos que una de las cosas que nosotros vemos que ha afectado, es que se elevan los precios, porque traen dinero, ya no trabajan en el campo. Entonces, para sus familias reciben recursos.Y pues eso hace que ellos tengan mayor capacidad para poder pagar a los mozos, por ejemplo, para que vayan a ser la [00:05:00] misma. Entonces, eso hace que el resto de la población pues se sienta afectada, porque no tiene los recursos para poder pagar lo que está pagando un migrante. Bueno, eso en alguna medida, está afectando la producción también de maíz, de por sí, ya la había afectado, porque muchos salen y dejan de trabajar la tierra. Los que quieren que se siga trabajando la tierra por parte de su familia mandan recursos, pero digamos que allí los costos se elevan para el resto de la población porque ellos pagan salarios más altos. Entonces, si alguien viene a la comunidad a trabajar, te va a cobrar más de lo que te cobraba anteriormente y muchos no lo pueden pagar.Entonces nos dice, "ya no voy a sembrar, porque el mozo está muy caro." No? Y eso es una afectación, pues directa, digamos a la economía de quien no migra. Y como hay pocos migrantes también, o digo [00:06:00] como hay poca gente que se que que se queda trabajar el campo en la comunidad, ya no hay suficientes personas para que se pueda hacer lo que nosotros llamamos gozona.O sea que vayamos entre todos a trabajar la parcela de cada uno de los que entran a ese tipo de trabajo. Bueno, también, eso es una afectación por la migración. No? Chris: Y Gloria, tú piensas que esa misma dinámica existe o ha pasaron en tu pueblo?Gloria: No, yo digo que igual, sí, estoy de acuerdo con lo que dicen algo y si sí, ha influenciado mucho de las personas que emigran si pagan más que los que no migran. Sí, si se ve mucho ese cambio.Chris: Gracias. Este pues parte de mi mi interés o cómo empecé, eh, acercándome a la cuestión de inmigración fue en parte por mi familia. [00:07:00] También eran migrantes de Macedonia y Grecia, y el otro lado de Inglaterra hacia Canadá hace como 50 años. Entonces este lo que he sentido, es que las dinámicas, las consecuencias de la migración en los pueblos y la gente que no migren, que hay patrones en el nivel mundial, y son casi bueno, muy parecidos. . Encontré un un libro en inglés, pero también existía en español. Eh? Que se llama El Derecho A No M igrar o The Right To Stay Home por David Bacon. Y ese libro, es titulado por una declaración que la gente de FIOB o La Frente Indígena de Organizaciones Binacionales hicieron en ahí en Santiago Juxtlahuaca en La Mixteca, Después de días de días de discutir sobre las [00:08:00] consecuencias de migraciones en los lugares de los migrantes, o sea, los pueblos originarios de los migrantes, resultó una declaración: "el derecho a no migrar conjunto con el derecho a migrar." Entonces tengo curiosidad por saber si ustedes podrían hablar sobre esos tiempos y la declaración, si saben cómo se formó o cómo se fue recibida en la mixteca o en la sierra norte de Oaxaca.Aldo: Bueno, nosotros aquí en la organización. Sí, hemos hablado del derecho a no migrar, porque estamos interesados en fortalecer la identidad de las personas que vivimos en nuestras comunidades. Pues, al final, somos parte de un pueblo más grande. No solamente es nuestra comunidad, sino que hay varias otras comunidades que pertenecemos al mismo pueblo, al pueblo zapoteca y en ese sentido, pues lo que estamos tratando [00:09:00] de hacer es que se fortalezcan nuestras comunidades, que se fortalezcan nuestra comunalidad, que es nuestra forma de organización comunitaria, y por esa razón es que preferiríamos que la gente no migra.Pero el problema es que ha habido un empobrecimiento muy brutal del campo en general, no solamente en México. Lo vemos también en otros países, que los que emigran principalmente son gente que sale del campo y van hacia los estados unidos a trabajar al campo en estados unidos, pero en condiciones que son completamente distintas a como se trabajaba en la comunidad. Incluso aquí en México, algunos van a trabajar en los campos del norte del país, también este en condiciones, pues terribles, con muchos agroquímicos.La gente regresa en algunos casos regresan enfermos, no? O regresan con las patas por delante, dijeron en el pueblo, porque [00:10:00] ya pues están muertos. Regresan nada más para que los entierren en la comunidad. Pero pues, prácticamente toda su vida la hicieron fuera, no? Entonces, quienes se van sufre porque añoran estar en la comunidad. Quieren comer lo que en la comunidad. Quieren escuchar la música de la comunidad. Quieren hacer la vida como si estuvieran en la comunidad, pero ya no está. Quienes se quedan a vivir fuera de la comunidad, digamos en estados unidos, sobre todo, pues sus hijos ya no los van a entender, porque ellos son educados de una manera distinta en escuelas que no tienen nada que ver con su cultura.Digamos que son colonizados mentalmente en las escuelas en estados unidos. Hay muy pocas escuelas que podríamos decir tienen la la eh capacidad de poder ser interculturales y enseñar en español y inglés y [00:11:00] enseñar la cultura de la comunidad y la cultura pues que se viven en los estados unidos, el individualismo.Entonces es muy complejo que un niño de inmigrantes, nacido en estados unidos pueda regresar a la comunidad, porque pues ya se adaptó a otra forma, a otra civilización, a otra forma de vida completamente distinta a la comunitaria. Y bueno, eso a nosotros nos preocupa. Estamos interesados en que la gente se quede.Sabemos que es difícil porque hay pocos recursos económicos en las comunidades, pero aun así pues, estamos haciendo el esfuerzo para que la gente se sienta orgullosa de ser de sus orígenes y no tengan la necesidad de migrar o en último de los casos, si tiene la necesidad de emigrar, por lo menos que tenga una referencia de lo que es su comunidad y la lleve a donde esté, [00:12:00] no?Porque pues, a veces, pues la gente lo hace por necesidad. Y esa necesidad, te lleva a a otros lugares, pero si tú te sientes orgulloso de tu identidad cultural, vas a llevar ese identidad donde tú estés. En el caso de la sierra, hay gente de varias comunidades que hace comunidad en donde está. Pero bueno, obviamente no lo va a poder hacer de la misma manera como si viviera en la comunidad, pero al menos algo se llevan. Otra forma de de ver el mundo se puede llevar también, aunque no la vas a poder practicar como como lo vas a hacer en tu comunidad, no? Y en general, digamos el trabajo que nosotros hacemos en la organización está enfocado a que se fortalezcan, pues distintos mecanismos para que la gente se quede.Por ejemplo, ahorita estamos trabajando en la en el establecimiento de la escuela de agroecología, para que los jóvenes tengan herramientas para [00:13:00] poder sembrar la tierra sin depender de los herbicidas de todos los agroquímicos que vienen con la revolución verde y que son los que utilizan normalmente en los estados unidos para la producción agrícola de la mayoría de las cosas que se hacen allá. Y dentro de este esquema de agroecología, pues obviamente que para nosotros el elemento cultural es es fundamental porque no podemos hacer solamente la agricultura fuera de nuestro contexto territorial-cultural. Entonces, todo esto tiene que estar englobado en esas, iniciativas que estamos tratando de impulsar eso.Chris: Mm ya. Gracias. Gracias, Aldo. Y Gloria, esa declaración surgió en la región en la Mixteca donde estás y pues me gustaría, saber si recuerdes la declaración, si era parte de la política o la gente de tu pueblo?Gloria: Bueno, me enteré que esta declaración surgió debido a las grandes [00:14:00] injusticias que sufre los migrantes. Como dice algo desde el memento en que salen de sus hogares hasta llegar allá en, digamos en estados unidos, donde tienen que trabajar igual y siguen sufriendo lo que son abusos físicos, psicológicos.Y qué más quisiéramos que la gente? Pues no, no emigrara no, pero sabemos que debido a sus necesidades emigran, pero ojalá y cuanto emigraran tuvieran esas so oportunidades de tan si quiere emigrar lo mejor posible que puedan y no pasar tu portando sufrimiento. Mm-hmm. La declaración surgió en esta zona de Juxtlahuaca, según lo que yo he encontrado igual, no sabía mucho sobre esta declaración, pero debido a esto ya cheque. Y sí, la declaración surgió especificamente por las injusticias que sufre la gente desde salir de su hogar, hasta llegar en estados unidos.Todos los abusos que llegan a [00:15:00] sufrir en el camino y hasta igual muchos hasta allá, aunque estén en el trabajo allá, también siguen sufriendo. Y por eso, pues, qué más quisiera la gente que no inmigrara no? Qué más quisiéramos que toda la gente tuviera la dicha de tener una vida digna en su país, en su tierra, para que no tuviera que emigrar, pero sucede, sucede que si emigran, sucede por muchas razones que a veces no están en nuestro alcance poderlos ayudar, pero digamos tan siquiera ofrecerles las oportunidades para que emigren de la mejor manera posible y no tengan tantas desventajas al memento de emigrar.Chris: Gracias. No, pues sí, el pueblo de mi papá, por ejemplo, era un pueblo campesino en Grecia y ya no esta abandonado, pero cuando si salieran hubiera 800 personas. Y el día de hoy hay como 50. Y hay como unos dos, tres campesinos todavía, entonces [00:16:00] este entiendo bien el de lo que dicen y que tan importante es de crear las condiciones para que la gente no necesitan migrarse si no necesitan.Pero me gustaría también preguntarles sobre el éxito quizás que ha existido. Entonces, si hubo una declaración en que salió de la verdad no es muy conocido, a pesar del éxito del libro y y esas cosas. No es muy conocido, por lo que he visto en México y por hablar con algunas personas de FIOB en estados unidos, pero vamos a eso en un memento. Quería preguntarles si hay programas o han visto ciertos éxitos dentro o a través de esas programas que, por ejemplo, que mencionaste Aldo y Glorias si en los pueblos hay como un cambio. Si algo ha cambiado en esos 15 años.Gloria: [00:17:00] Ajá de mi parte. Yo digo que sí. Sí, ha habido un cambio. Tal vez no un cambio directo. No ha habido la declaración. Sí, sí ha ayudado, nada más que nosotros, no lo hemos visto porque casi no se menciona. Pero si ha habido. Gracias a eso, pues se han formado programas, proyectos que se han apoyado a los migrantes, pero que muchas veces nuestros desconocemos.Pero sí, sí existe, digamos el impacto positivo que ha generado esa declaración.Aldo: Bueno, en el caso de la sierra Juárez, la sierra norte de Oaxaca, digamos, hay algunas comunidades que tienen un alto índice de migración y bueno, ahí en algunos casos, han llegado algunos programas, por ejemplo, como " dos por uno," donde los migrantes, digamos, ponen una parte de recursos, el estado pone otra parte o pone dos partes, digamos el gobierno federal, el gobierno del estado para hacer alguna obra en la comunidad.Pero realmente eso no está [00:18:00] solucionando ningún problema, no porque básicamente lo que está haciendo es obligar a los migrantes a que contribuyan a realizar alguna mejor alguna obra en su en su comunidad y cuando esos recursos los podían destinar para sus familias o para otra cosa o para cumplir con sus obligaciones comunitarias, pero no necesariamente realizando las acciones que el gobierno está obligado a rerealizar obras sociales o cosas por el estilo.Entonces, pues yo podría decir que de los programas que que han aparecido en los últimos años, pues tampoco nos han ayudado mucho a a frenar la migración. Por ejemplo, el programa del sexenio pasado más anunciado fue el de Sembrando Vida, no? Y si bien ese apoyo a algunos campesinos en algunas comunidades, no en todas, pues, podríamos [00:19:00] decir que si los capturó para que no migraran hacia los estados unidos, pero dejaron de sembrar maíz cuando inicialmente el programa este era para que sembraran más maíz. Nos pusieron a sembrada arbolitos, no árboles que muchos casos ni siquiera son de la región que no iban a pegar o si iban a pegar, no iban a ser útiles aquí, porque venían de otras regiones o si crecían, ya no iba se ya no iba a poder cultivarse maíz en esos lugares porque les iban a hacer sombra al maíz.Nosotros vivimos en laderas. Aquí no hay lugares planos como en estados unidos, no? Entonces, digamos que programas gubernamentales que hayan beneficiado en alguna medida. El flujo migratorio que hayan hecho que haya menos migratorio, pues tampoco se ven. No se ven con mucha claridad. Nosotros vemos que se siguen estableciendo políticas para destruir el tejido comunitario, para expulsar a la población [00:20:00] del campo hacia las ciudades o hacia los estados unidos.Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Y has mencionado? Que tu trabajo tiene mucho que ver con la regeneración de maíz y obviamente maíz criollo o sea local también. Porque es tan importante para el pueblo frente de las consecuencias de la migración? Aldo: El Maiz para nosotros es un elemento muy importante. Nosotros podríamos decir que es el corazón de la comunidad porque lo vamos a comer todos los días. Nosotros decimos "nativo". Les dicen c"criollo" desde las instituciones de muchos lugares por costumbre, pero la palabra está mal empleada. Nosotros decimos que son nuestros maíces nativos. Y no es lo mismo comer una tortilla de maíz nativo, un elote de nuestros maices, a que comprar un elote que ahora venden en la ciudad que fue hecho con [00:21:00] maíces híbridos o que tengamos que comer tortillas hechas con maíces transgen. Desgraciadamente, en los últimos años, yo creo que no solamente pasa en la sierra, sino en muchos otros lugares del país, se ha incrementado el uso de las tortillerías y entonces ya no sabemos con qué maíz están produciendo esas tortillas, pero no se pueden comparar con las tortillas de nuestros maíces hechas con nuestras propias tecnologías. No? Entonces, yo creo que el maíz para nosotros, además de ser nuestro alimento principal o el que más consumimos, también nos da identidad. El maíz nos convoca, por ejemplo, a trabajar juntos, cosa que en estados unidos, no lo hacen. Todos ellos contratan migrantes para que hagan su trabajo, no? Y ellos van a producir lo que vayan a producir para vender aquí.El maíz que se siembra [00:22:00] normalmente es para consumir. Casi no se vende el maíz. Y por ejemplo, ahora que están poniendo precios de garantía, no? Precio garantía las de MXN $6. En nuestras comunidades, el maíz, no lo puedes vender a MXN $6, o sea, por lo menos, lo vendes a MXN $20, si es que lo vendes, porque es el esfuerzo de tu trabajo y también por la misma gente que la comunidad o incluso por los migrantes o por las familias inmigrantes, es valorado como una, un un alimento que es completamente distinto a el maíz que se compra en la tienda, en la CONASUPO o en Diconsa o en cualquier tienda comercial o qué viene de la tortilla? Entonces hay un aprecio especial por nuestros maíces. Eso es importante, pero cada vez se está produciéndo menos. Ahora anteriormente quien tenía maíz era considerado rico. [00:23:00] Desde una perspectiva comparado de hoy, quien tiene maíz es considerado tonto o pobre porque no tiene dinero. Sin embargo, pues sobre todo los campesinos viejos que dicen bueno, pues "si yo tengo maíz, no necesito dinero" para vivir porque tengo el alimento suficiente. Incluso anteriormente, por ejemplo, cuando la gente tenía que realizar sus cargos comunitarios que no eran pagados ahora en muchas comunidades, han empezado a pagar el cargo. Quien podía ocupar el cargo era un agente mayor, que sus hijos ya habían crecido, pero que además, él tenía maíz para no pedirle favor a nadie de cómo iba a solventar la alimentación de su familia por el año o el tiempo que tuviera que estar al frente del cargo comunitario.Entonces, digamos que el maíz también hace comunidad? Y con estas políticas, falta de apoyos o de [00:24:00] eliminación de apoyo, el campo mexicano están lastimando también nuestras formas de organización communitaria. Eso.Chris: Qué fuerte. Sí, me acordé en lo que dijiste Aldo, unas palabras que que escribió el filósofo Ivan Illich y no sé si es exactamente lo que escribió, pero básicamente dijo que durante casi toda la historia de la humanidad, la mayor medida de la pobreza era si uno tenía o no que comprar su alimento, su comida. Es decir, si tenías comprar tu comida en el pasado, era un señal, una medida de de pobreza, de decir que buenas eres pobre si tienes que comprar. Gloria, tienes algo para agregar a ese punto. Gloria: Ese punto no, no,Chris: [00:25:00] está bien, está bien. Pues me gustaría también seguir con ese lo que mencionaste Aldo, de los recursos y lo que se llaman remisas y por lo que he visto las estadísticas, no dicen que es más o menos seis porciento de la economía mexicana está compuesta por remesas enviadas por familiares o amigos en estados unidos. En algunos de los pueblos a los que me han invitado, me han dicho que el pueblo no sobreviviría sin remesas. En otros. Me han dicho que el pueblo sobreviviría mucho mejor si la gente no se fuera. Este es un tema muy complejo y mi pregunto. Si ustedes dos podrían hablar sobre esa complejidad que han visto en sus pueblos y en otros lugares como resultado de las remesas.Y pues siento que se sale [00:26:00] como ese tema a una pregunta vital o central que es como si una persona puede o no ser responsable de un lugar estando al otro lugar?Gloria: Yo digo que sí. Las remesas si han influido positivamente porque gracias a ellos ha habido muchos negocios, comercio y siento que si le quitáramos esas remesas, esos negocios se caería, porque el dinero que mucha gente que va a gastar en esos negocios es dinero que sus familiares envían de estados unidos. Gracias a ello, pues compran sus alimentos, los materiales que ocupan desde útiles escolares hasta cosas personales que ocupe. Y si en las remesas, yo siento que sí, estaría complicado porque como hasta ahorita, no hay suficientes oportunidades dentro del país para que pueda satisfacer esa demanda, yo siento que si las [00:27:00] quitáramos, sí, sería un impacto muy fuerte negativamente.Aldo: Decía yo que el lunes es el día de mercado en Ixtlan. Es la comunidad más grande de esta región. Y este cuando va uno llegando a isl, lo primero que ve uno es la fila en el banco. Es una fila mayor que cualquier otro día. La mayoría de la gente que está formada ahí va a recibir remesas y luego la va a gastar en en el mercado. En el mejor de los casos, pues sería bueno que comprara cosas de la región, pero muchas de las cosas que compran también son procesadas. Vienen de fuera, no? Incluso una cosa que da hasta miedo a veces es ver cómo la la señora se llevan sus paquetes de maruchan, no? Entonces dice eso es lo [00:28:00] que van a comer los niños. Y sí están cambiándole la alimentación a los niños porque es más fácil poner hervir la sopa que ya viene en esa caja, le echa en agua, se hierve y hasta la comida.Entonces, si se reciben recursos que sostienen a la familia, pero nos están cambiando la forma de vida, porque pues no puedes sobrevivir como estaban haciendo anteriormente nuestros antepasados, nuestros papás, nuestros abuelos, pero nos están cambiando la vida y nos están haciendo dependientes del dinero. Nos están haciendo individualistas también porque ahora tener dinero, pues puede ser una cosa de prestigio, no?Pero realmente las remesas no están resolviendo un problema de fondo en la comunidad. Están resolviendo un problema de una sobrevivencia impuesta, no? [00:29:00] Porque te quitan tu forma de ser, te quitan tu forma de vivir comunitaria y te imponen una forma de vida individual que se basa en el dinero y no en las relaciones familiares o las relaciones comunitarias que existían anteriormente. Entonces, digamos que las remesas te van a ayudar a vivir. Te van a ayudar a comprar cosas, no? Muchas de esas cosas no van a ser locales. O sea, llega el dinero a la comunidad y se va de la comunidad para el que compró cosas fuera de la comunidad y que vino a vender a este lugar, no? Pero, entonces está ayudando podríamos decir que la economía capitalista no está ayudando a la economía comunitaria. Aun cuando sean gentes de la comunidad las que vendan las cosas, no? Digamos que puede ser que una parte se quede en la comunidad porque el comerciante de la comunidad fue a la ciudad, compró las cosas y las trajo aquí.El se va a quedar con su ganancia, pero finalmente le está haciendo el trabajo al [00:30:00] capitalista que produjo esas cosas y las llevó a la comunidad a través de ese comerciante. Entonces las remesas se están ayudando a fortalecer el sistema capitalista y a destruir el sistema comunitario.Chris: Anoche, un amigo me ha contado que hay algunos pueblos aquí en Oaxaca que apenas se juntaron en sus asambleas para platicar sobre la posibilidad que la amenaza del memento de Trump en estados unidos para deportar todos los migrantes.Bueno, no todos los migrantes, pero los migrantes que no conformen con el mundo de Trump ahi en estados unidos. Y qué pasaría? O sea, la gente en las asambleas están hablando de qué pasaría si eso pasaría? Si, de repente hay cientos, si no miles, de compañeros y [00:31:00] familiares que de repente lleguen de nuevo al pueblo y obviamente sin ese esos fondos? Quizás es un poco de lo que pasó en la pandemia. También hubo muchas historias de gente de del norte allá, volviendo a sus pueblos. Y se empezaron a trabajar en las milpas, pero luego se fueron de nuevo a al norte pues a trabajar. Gloria: Sí, bueno, si eso digamos si esa amenaza se llegara a cumplir y todos los migrantes regresaran, yo siento que sería muy complicado para el país sostener a todos esos migrantes, porque hasta ahorita no hay tantas oportunidades. Digamos si hay un programa del más conocido sembrando vida, pero está cumpliendo muy poquito el trabajo que debe de cumplir.Y si te regresaran todos los migrantes nos quedaríamos como que atascados como sería un impacto, yo siento que, negativo, porque no tenemos la posibilidad de de [00:32:00] recibirlos. No tenemos las oportunidades, no tenemos programas, no tenemos, hay muchas cosas que no nos van a favorecer, porque ellos, si ellos regresan, van a ver muchos migrantes, pero sin un sustento, sin algo que los pueda sostener para que tengan una vida más o menos como la que ya tenían cuando estaban allá.Y porque no solo va a afectar a ellos, sino también sus familias que tienen acá al ver que sus familiares que estaban allá ya van a estar acá.Chris: Gracias. Gloria. Sí, Aldo.Aldo: Bueno, algunos empiezan a preguntar a mí. Nosotros vemos que, incluso en estados unidos, hay algunos migrantes que votaron por Trump. Muchos que votaron por Trump. Platicando con algunas personas digamos que los que pagan impuestos y ya tienen su residencia en estados unidos, ven a los migrantes documentados como estorbo, como una competencia [00:33:00] desleal, porque ellos no están obligados a pagar impuestos. Y entonces no.Porque es parte del modelo, el model modelo capitalista diseñado. Digamos que entre los mismos mexicanos inmigrantes, hay contradicciones, hay discriminación. Digamos un migrante que ya es residente, a veces no va a apoyar a un migrante illegal porque puede quitar el empleo.Y bueno, esto nos meten en situaciones complejas al final de cuentas, porque, incluso estos migrantes votaron por Donald Trump. Estarían de acuerdo en que deportaran a los migrantes similares.Es un extremo. Ahora, los migrantes en general, si son deportados, los migrantes indocumentados y son deportados, van afectar la economía también de los estados unidos? No? Porque hay muchas cosas que en estados unidos dejarían de funcionar, si no hay inmigrantes. [00:34:00] O sea, quién va a cuidar a los viejitos, por ejemplo? Muchos migrantes, sobre todo mujeres se dedican al cuidado de personas enfermas o personas mayores de edad que no tienen familia o que si tienen familia de todas formas, los mantienen prácticamente en el abandono o viven de su pensión y ya no pueden hacer su vida normal porque tienen algún padecimiento, etcétera.Y necesitan una gente que las corre Normalmente son mexicanos o son migrantes indocumentados los que hacen ese tipo de trabajo. Este sector de la población de estados unidos se debería afectar. Los granjeros que siembran, digamos, para vender los productos en el mercado de estados unidos, la mayoría contratan migrantes no documentados.Entonces ellos también van a tener un problema de que su producción agrícola va a bajar porque no va a ver migrantes. Y hay otros sectores de la economía en estados unidos que también resultarían afectados. No sé [00:35:00] si Trump no lo está viendo o se hace el que no lo ve o es solamente un amague, como quien dice.Y esta es como una amenaza que no va a cumplir porque finalmente eso afectaría la economía de los estados unidos. Si llegara a hacerse, aunque fuera de manera parcial, que es lo más probable, pues los migrantes que fueran deportados hacia México, no sabemos si traigan remesas o no. No sabemos si hayan tenido ahorros o no.Puede ser que algunos sí, puede ser que algunos no. Muchos de los que regresan ya no están acostumbrados a vivir en comunidad o en su comunidad. No están acostumbrados a vivir a realizar las actividades en el campo y preferirían vivir en la ciudad, pero en la ciudad no va a haber empleo. No va a haber suficientes empleos para que ellos puedan hacer una vida menos [00:36:00] rural, digamos en su regreso a México.Algunos otros dicen bueno, pues si a mí me deporten, pues yo me regreso a sembrar maiz y no pasa nada, pero no creo que sea la mayoría o no creo que sea la totalidad, al menos no los que vayan a regresar a su comunidad. Quienes han trabajado desde niños en la comunidad y saben realizarlas el trabajo de campo, no van a tener problema, pero quienes ya se acostumbraron a realizar actividades que no son agrícolas y han sido obligados a migrar, pues iban a tener ese problema de que no van a saber que hacer cuando retornen a este país o cuando los obliguen a retornar a este país.Chris: Si yo recuerdo leyendo un libro hace unos años, y era un poco raro porque el libro era publicado en 1940. Y fue una historia social de la migración llegando en estados unidos en el [00:37:00] siglo anterior y básicamente dijo que si llegaron como los alemanes o una ola de migrantes alemanes. Los que ya estuvieran allá odiaban los alemanes porque los alemanes estaban listos a pagar más renta y aceptar menos ingresos de trabajo. Y luego otro 10 años, pasa no? Y quizás ya hay más alemanes ahora, pero ya vienen los ucráneos y los alemanes están enojados porque los u cráneos están listos para pagar más renta y trabajar por menos. Y luego los los alemanes se van a la periferia o se encuentran nuevos pueblos o ciudades. Se migran, básicamente. Y es un ciclo que hasta la fecha vemos en lo que dijiste Aldo respeto de la gente que ya tiene residencia en estados unidos, por ejemplo, los mexicanos diciendo que, "pues ya no, ya tengo el mío, [00:38:00] entonces nadie más," no? Ese tiene una historia muy, muy largo.Y además, la cosa que yo crecía en en Toronto en Canadá. Canadá está conocido y también se promueven el país como un país de multiculturalismo. O sea, la gran mayoría de nuestros papás son de otros países. O sea, es un país de migrantes. Pero, crecimos con este idea nacional que la población del país siempre estuvo disminuyendo, o sea menos y menos gente cada generación. Entonces, por eso teníamos que invitar y aceptar un montón de inmigrantes cada año, o sea, un montón de montón. Pero leyendo las historias sociales, me di cuenta que, pues esas invitaciones y sentido de estar abierto al otro, no era parte de la compasión del país canadiense.Era porque [00:39:00] necesitaban cada vez más, entrecomillas "labor barato", o sea, gente que estaban dispuestos a trabajar los trabajos que nadie más querían hacer y por dinero que nadie más querían trabajar. Y entonces el estado tenían que seguir invitando, trayendo gente de afuera para hacer ese trabajo.Y la pregunta sería, entonces quizás, qué haríamos? Como dijo gloria, para asegurar que hay un trabajo digno, hay una vida digna para la gente. Y lo digo porque cuando hablé con un representante de FIOB que era representante de FIOB en 2009 durante la declaración a no migrar. Y le pregunté entonces, por qué esa declaración no ha salido viral o popular en estados unidos y otros países? Y me dijo "ah, bueno, no, es que en estados unidos, la cosa es que si eres de la parte izquierda de la [00:40:00] política, no podrías criticar nada de la migración." O sea, toda la migración es bonito, no? No hay un espejo a las realidades y pero si te criticas la migración en cualquiera manera, eres automáticamente parte de la derecha o ultra derecha. Eres un hijo de Trump, etcétera. Aldo: De hecho, por ejemplo, Trump, no podríamos decir que sea un nativo americano, verdad? Los nativos americanos no tienen el pelo anaranjado. Entonces el vino de otro país, vino de Europa. Y bueno a la mejor ahora ya se siente estadounidense y no quiere que otros vayan a ese país de manera ilegal, como a lo mejor sus papás llegaron a los estados unidos a pagar rentas caras y a recibir salarios bajos. Pero pues él ya se hizo al modo capitalista de estados unidos. Tiene la [00:41:00] nacionalidad de los estados unidos y ahora no quiere que otros migren. Pero tampoco creo que quiera reconocer derechos de los nativos americanos que son quienes han vivido ahí por muchas más generaciones que las de la familia de tronco de muchos otros que se sienten estadounidenses ahora. Estaba viendo hace unos días un video de como viven, algunas familias en Mongolia. Mongolia es un país en donde todavía hay pastores nómadas que no viven en una ciudad o en una comunidad agraria. Viven en un territorio amplio y van siguiendo a su ganado. Que va cambiando de lugar, defendiendo de la estación del año.Ellos no tienen necesidad de emigrar. O sea, ellos han hecho su vida así desde hace mucho tiempo por muchas generaciones. E incluso no tienen la necesidad de tener los recursos económicos para [00:42:00] comprar cosas porque no necesitan tantas cosas. Está en una tienda de campaña para poder irse para otro lado que a lo mejor los muebles más básicos para poder vivir adentro de su tienda de campaña y se acabo.Y eso no quiere decir que sean pobres. El capitalismo mide la pobreza en función de los ingresos económicos. Si ganas menos de al día, pues eres una persona muy pobre. Pero. Pues el dinero no te va a solucionar todos los problemas del mundo. Entonces, creo que tenemos que empezar a mirarnos de otra manera y ver que los recursos económicos no son la única solución para la vida.Nos han hecho creer eso en los últimos años. Entonces, hoy, quien no tiene dinero es pobre, no? Pero creo que hay otras formas en que hemos vivido la mayor parte de la humanidad en este planeta que no eran como esta forma de vida capitalista que hoy nos están imponiendo, no? Y nos la están imponiendo porque [00:43:00] pues cada vez son menos gente las que quieren controlar la economía mundial.O sea, nosotros lo vemos. Cada vez son menos compañías tras nacionales las que tienen, por ejemplo, el negocio de las semillas y las semilleros que había en México hasta hace 30 años, ya desaparecieron en estos últimos años. Y ahora los tienen cuatro grandes empresas a nivel mundial. Pues obviamente que ellos quieren tener el negocio de las semillas y si no quieren que nadie más tenga negocio de las semillas o que los campesinos no tengan sus propias semillas para poder sobrevivir, entonces están expropiando la posibilidad de generar una vida de una manera distinta, no? Entonces ellos nos van a obligar o nos quieren obligar a que hagamos la vida como dependiendo de lo que ellos nos puedan vender, y desaparecer esas otras formas de sobrevivir en el planeta.Yo creo que esas otras formas, aunque muy deterioradas, [00:44:00] muy golpeadas, siguen vigentes en muchos lugares y habrá gente que las quiera reivindicar, nosotros las queremos reivindicar y creemos que hay otra forma de hacer la vida en esta planeta. Hay muchas otras formas de hacer la vida en tu planeta que son.Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Este Gloria, te gustaría agregar algo? Gloria: Sí, bueno, igual por parte de lo como lo que afecta también a que la declaración no sea tan famosa, es porque, como dice Aldo, es que estamos tan enfocados en el capitalismo que si por un memento, no nos enfocáramos en ese ámbito del capitalismo, yo siento que, pues todos dirían que tienen una vida digna en sus tierras y se quedarían más, pero como todos estamos enfocados en lo material, en el dinero y todo eso, pues decimos que para qué vamos a dar tanto mención a la declaración, si no es útil, [00:45:00] supuestamente? Pero es porque hemos tenido tanto esa idea del capitalismo de que siempre queremos ver dinero, todo lo que implica el capitalismo, y nos olvidamos un poco de lo que realmente significa tener la vida digna, porque pues somos esos ricos en muchas cosas, no? Tenemos agua, tenemos tierra. Y podríamos ser felices con eso. Pero igual no nos conformamos con eso. Siempre queremos más porque esas son las ideas que el capitalismo nos ha metido. Mm-hmm.Chris: Gracias, gloria. Igual, para mí, como aunque he pasado mucho tiempo, visitando y trabajando unos pueblos de Oaxaca, creciendo en un metrópolis urbano, occidental moderno, etcétera, yo tengo que imaginar una vida digna. Yo no crecí en una sociedad donde podían apuntar a un ejemplar de una vida digna. [00:46:00] En ese libro que escribió de David be David bacon sobre la ola o caravana más reciente de inmigrantes que se dirigen a los estados unidos, esta vez de este Venezuela, se mencionó en 2023 creo, se estima que 200,000 migrantes ingresaron a los estados unidos caras. Teniendo en cuenta esas cifras y las diversas crisis que obligan a las personas a mudarse en nuestros tiempos, qué consejos o comentarios les daría a las personas, ya sean campesinos indígenas o modernos que ven la migración como la única respuesta?Gloria: Sí. Sí. Bueno, el consejo que yo daría así sería que si tienen las posibilidades, como digo, si tienen.Aunque no [00:47:00] tengan mucho, no, pero si me nací en una zona donde no hay violencia donde más o menos, si pueden vivir más o menos, si pueden tener una vida digna o a lo que se puede asemejar a una vida digna, pues que se queden ahí. No hay necesidad. Bueno, sí. Sabes que si hay necesidad, pero que no se vean tan forzados a migrar?Porque pues hay es complicado, es difícil todo lo que van a sufrir toda lo que implica, como digo, también un principio, muchos emigran para mejorar sus vidas, pero igual o mejorar la vida de sus familias. Pero muchos cuando regresan esas familias por las que se fueron, cuando regresan, esa familia ya no la encuentran. Ya está muerta. Muchos que igual tengo motivos que igual emigraron. Y se fueron para dar mejor vida a sus papás, pero sus papás ya murieron y ellos todavía siguen sin regresar. Y la vida a y se supuestamente le [00:48:00] iban a dar mejor vida, pero nunca sucedió. Simplemente están sobreviviendo, pero nunca, nunca cumplieron ese sueño.Y yo digo, el consejo que yo les daría es que si tiene la posibilidad de tener una vida digna en sus tierras, pues que se queden ahí y que no vean la migración como el gran sueño, como como todos este lo imaginamos, no?Aldo: Bueno, yo creo que la migración no es una decisión de las personas que se ven obligadas a migrar. Hay muchos factores. Estados unidos necesita mano de obra barata, como tú decías. Entonces, pues aunque Trump diga que no quiere emigrantes, si quiere migrantes. Y lo que sucede en Venezuela, pues al final de cuentas es parte de las políticas que se hicieron en estados unidos, no? Ahí metieron a ese país en crisis.Y luego llegó un ticket de los estados unidos [00:49:00] y les dijo a sus paisanos que se inmigraban hacia los estados unidos. Iban a ser bien recibidos. Nunca se imaginaron el calvario que tenían que sufrir en el tránsito para poder llegar a estados unidos. Y cuando llegan a estados unidos, pues tampoco son bien recibidos como les habían ofrecido que sería su bienvenida, no?Y en México, nosotros vemos ahora en nuestro país, por ejemplo, como se ha incrementado de manera exponencial la violencia en las zonas rurales. Esa violencia no solamente está obligando a la gente a migrar, sino que, pues los está desalojando de sus tierras, no? Y normalmente esto se hace porque, hay otros intereses en esas tierras y las quieren, quieren las tierras, pero las quieren sin gente.Y entonces se va a implementar el mecanismo de la violencia para que esa [00:50:00] gente se vea obligada a salir y por lo tanto, se vea obligada a migrar a donde sea, porque ya no puede vivir en paz en la comunidad donde nació, donde se acostumbra a vivir, no? Entonces la migración no es un fenómeno natural. Es un fenómeno que ha sido creado por el mismo capital, que lo necesita para sobrevivir como sistema capitalista, y que está quitándole la posibilidad de vivir bien a la gente que vive en lugares muy remotos donde no necesitaban incluso de su existencia como sistema.Eso.Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Sí, seguramente las causas de la migración muchas veces vienen del motor de capitalismo de [00:51:00] guerra, plagas y hambre.Y podemos pensar más en que hay ciertas personas que que tienen que emigrar, que tienen que emigrar. No tienen opción. Y además, cuando se emigran y las noticias del dinero, del prestigio, privilegio, vuelve a los pueblos, a las familias que también el tema puede quedar en asuntos de ambición, envidia, deseo, que la gente que tiene opción puede entender las consecuencias a su propio pueblo, a su propia gente, a los que se quedan o dejan atrás, no? Y bueno, me gustaría en el nombre de nuestros oyentes, agradecerles muchísimo por sus tiempo y [00:52:00] presencia hoy por sus reflexiones y consideraciones por sus trabajos y compromisos en el mundo.Lo agredezco mucho. Les agradezco mucho. Y hasta la próxima, gracias, Aldo. Gracias, Gloria. Gloria: Igual, gracias! Aldo: Pues mucho gusto. Mucho gusto. Gloria. Nos vemos. Chris, si. English TranscriptionChris: [00:00:00] Welcome Aldo and welcome Gloria to the podcast the end of tourism. Thank you both for being willing to talk with me today about these topics. I'm curious if you two would be willing to give a little introduction or summary about yourselves.Ah, ado, we didn't hear you.Aldo: Well, about my trips, well, I don't travel. I hardly have any vacations. But because of work, I have had to go to different places in the world. We could say, basically because of the work I do?Rather than going to see the places where I have been invited, what I have done is go and talk to the people who are in those places about the problems we have here in the region.The problems we have in Mexico and [00:01:00] who has allowed me to travel to different places has been the problem of contamination by transgenic corn. So that has made it so that, with that anger that weighed on me in 2001, I have had the opportunity to go to other places to talk a little about that particular problem and many others that are related to it, not the issue of transgenics or the issue of agrochemicals or the issue of corporate control over food, over seeds as well.So, let's say that in general, most of the trips I have made are related to these accents or to the rights of indigenous peoples as well.Chris: Thanks, Aldo. And could you tell us where you are today?Aldo: Eh? Well, today I am in Guelatao and it is my community and I am in the offices of my organization, which is the union of organizations of the Sierra Juarez.Chris: Thank you very much, [00:02:00] Hello Aldo and Gloria.Gloria: Yes, the same. I have rarely left the state, but I do know a lot of people who usually emigrate to the United States, which is where most of them live, but they don't emigrate much to other states. But most of them do emigrate to the United States. I have a lot of neighbors, family, and a lot of people from here in Coycoyan. They do emigrate more to the United States.Chris: Okay. Thank you so much for uh, being on time with us today. So, although it's early in the conversation, my question is about how have you seen the return of migrants to their villages affect the community in your own places or towns?Gloria: Yes, in how long has it affected the community? That many when they return, well, they already have other ideas, other culture, another way of seeing life and sometimes many no longer [00:03:00] want to participate in the community assemblies or they come with other techniques, let's say, of cultivation and the techniques that they had here before, well, they are already lost and I see more and more how this also affects their personal lives, because many when they return they already return sick, tired.In the best of cases, many of them return with money, right? And that makes the people who are in the town see that since they did well, they also want to emigrate and then there are more people who want to migrate and they become more and they have the idea that, well, there is an opportunity for them to improve their lives in the United States.But I say that in general the impact is both positive and [00:04:00] negative, because as I say, many return tired, sick. Many also leave their families here and when they return, their families can no longer find them, or some who leave their parents, when they return their parents have already died or there are situations like that that impact their personal life.Chris: Thanks, Gloria. Aldo, would you like to respond?Aldo: Although there aren't many of them here in the community of Guelatao, there isn't as much migration as in other nearby communities. Let's say that one of the things that we see that has affected us is that prices are rising, because they bring money and no longer work in the fields. So, they receive resources for their families.And that makes them have a greater capacity to pay the waiters, for example, so that they can be the same . So, that makes the rest of the population feel affected, because they do not have the resources to be able to pay what a migrant is paying. Well, that to some extent is affecting corn production as well, in itself, it had already affected it, because many leave and stop working the land. Those who want their family to continue working the land send resources, but let's say that there the costs rise for the rest of the population because they pay higher salaries. So, if someone comes to the community to work, they will charge you more than they charged you before and many cannot pay it.Then he tells us, "I'm not going to plant anymore, because the boy is too expensive." Right?And that has a direct impact on the economy of those who do not migrate.And since there are few migrants too, or I say [00:06:00] since there are few people who stay to work the fields in the community, there are no longer enough people to be able to do what we call gozona.So let's all work together on the part of each of those who enter this type of work. Well, that is also an impact of migration, right?Chris: And Gloria, do you think that the same dynamic exists or has happened in your town?Gloria: No, I say that it is the same, yes, I agree with what they say and yes, it has greatly influenced the people who emigrate if they pay more than those who do not migrate. Yes, that change is very noticeable.Chris: Thank you. Well, part of my interest or how I started, uh, approaching the immigration issue was partly because of my family. [00:07:00] They were also migrants from Macedonia and Greece, and the other side from England to Canada about 50 years ago. So what I've felt is that the dynamics, the consequences of migration on the people and the people who don't migrate, that there are patterns at the global level, and they are almost, well, very similar.I found a book in English, but it also existed in Spanish. Eh? It's called The Right Not to Migrate or The Right To Stay Home by David Bacon. And that book, it's titled after a declaration that the people of FIOB or the Indigenous Front of Binational Organizations made there in Santiago Juxtlahuaca in La Mixteca,After days and days of discussing the consequences of migration in the places of the migrants, that is, the native peoples of the migrants, a declaration was made: "the right not to migrate together with the right to migrate." So I'm curious to know if you could talk about those times and the declaration, if you know how it was formed or how it was received in the Mixteca or in the northern mountains of Oaxaca.Aldo: Well, here in the organization, yes, we have talked about the right not to migrate, because we are interested in strengthening the identity of the people who live in our communities. Well, in the end, we are part of a larger community. It is not only our community, but there are several other communities that belong to the same people, to the Zapotec people, and in that sense, what we are trying to do is [00:09:00] What we have to do is strengthen our communities, strengthen our communality, which is our form of community organization, and for that reason we would prefer that people do not migrate.But the problem is that there has been a brutal impoverishment of the countryside in general, not only in Mexico. We also see it in other countries, that those who emigrate are mainly people who leave the countryside and go to the United States to work in the fields in the United States, but in conditions that are completely different from how they worked in the community. Even here in Mexico, some go to work in the fields in the north of the country , too . It is in terrible conditions , with many agrochemicals.People come back, in some cases they come back sick, right? Or they come back with their feet up, they said in the village, because [00:10:00] they are already dead. They come back just to be buried in the community. But well, they practically lived their whole life outside, right?So, those who leave suffer because they long to be in the community. They want to eat what they eat in the community. They want to listen to the music of the community. They want to live as if they were in the community, but it is no longer there. Those who stay to live outside the community, let's say in the United States, especially, because their children will no longer understand them, because they are educated in a different way in schools that have nothing to do with their culture.Let's say that they are mentally colonized in schools in the United States. There are very few schools that we could say have the capacity to be intercultural and teach in Spanish and English and [00:11:00] teach the culture of the community and the culture that is experienced in the United States, individualism.So it is very difficult for a child of immigrants, born in the United States, to return to the community, because he or she has already adapted to another way, to another civilization, to another way of life completely different from the community. And well, that worries us. We are interested in people staying.We know that it is difficult because there are few economic resources in the communities, but even so, we are making the effort so that people feel proud of their origins and do not have the need to migrate or, in the last case, if they have the need to emigrate, at least they have a reference of what their community is like and take it to wherever they are, [00:12:00] right?Because sometimes people do it out of necessity. And that necessity takes you to other places, but if you feel proud of your cultural identity, you will take that identity wherever you are. In the case of the mountains, there are people from various communities who make a community where they are. But obviously they won't be able to do it in the same way as if they lived in the community, but at least they take something with them.You can also take another way of seeing the world, although you won't be able to practice it like you would in your community, right? And in general, let's say the work we do in the organization is focused on strengthening different mechanisms so that people stay.For example, right now we are working on establishing an agroecology school, so that young people have the tools to [00:13:00] be able to plant the land without depending on herbicides and all the agrochemicals that come with the green revolution and that are the ones normally used in the United States for agricultural production of most of the things that are done there.And within this agroecology framework, obviously for us the cultural element is fundamental because we cannot do only agriculture outside of our territorial-cultural context. So, all of this has to be included in these initiatives that we are trying to promote.Chris: Mm, yes. Thank you. Thank you, Aldo. And Gloria, that statement arose in the Mixteca region where you are and I would like to know if you remember the statement, if it was part of the politics or the people of your town?Gloria: Well, I learned that this statement came about because of the great [00:14:00] injustices that migrants suffer. As it says something from the moment they leave their homes until they get there, let's say in the United States, where they have to work the same and continue to suffer physical and psychological abuse.And what else would we want from people? Well, no, they wouldn't emigrate, no, but we know that they emigrate due to their needs, but I hope that those who emigrate have those opportunities so that if they want to emigrate as best they can and not go through suffering. Mm-hmm.The declaration arose in this area of Juxtlahuaca, according to what I have found, I did not know much about this declaration, but because of this I have already checked. And yes, the declaration arose specifically because of the injustices that people suffer from leaving their homes until arriving in the United States.All the abuses that they [00:15:00] end up suffering along the way and even many of them there, even if they are working there, they also continue to suffer. And for that reason, well, what more would people want than for them not to immigrate, right? What more would we want for all people to have the good fortune of having a dignified life in their country, in their land, so that they do not have to emigrate, but it happens, it happens that if they emigrate, it happens for many reasons that sometimes it is not within our reach to be able to help them, but let's say at least to offer them the opportunities so that they emigrate in the best way possible and do not have so many disadvantages at the time of emigrating.Chris: Thank you. No, yes, my father's village, for example, was a peasant village in Greece and it is no longer abandoned, but when they left there were 800 people. And today there are about 50. And there are still about two, three peasants, so [00:16:00] I understand well what they are saying and how important it is to create the conditions so that people do not need to migrate if they do not need to.But I would also like to ask you about the success that has perhaps existed. So, if there was a statement that came out of the truth, it is not very well known, despite the success of the book and those things. It is not very well known, from what I have seen in Mexico and from speaking with some people from FIOB in the United States, but we will get to that in a moment. I wanted to ask you if there are programs or have you seen certain successes within or through those programs, for example, that you mentioned Aldo and Glorias, if there is a change in the towns. If something has changed in those 15 years.Glory: [00:17:00] Aha, from my side. I say yes. Yes, there has been a change. Maybe not a direct change. There has not been a declaration. Yes, it has helped, but we have not seen it because it is hardly mentioned. But there has been. Thanks to that, programs and projects have been created that have supported migrants, but which many times we are unaware of.But yes, there is, let's say, the positive impact that this statement has generated.Aldo: Well, in the case of the Sierra Juárez, the northern mountains of Oaxaca, let's say, there are some communities that have a high rate of migration and well, in some cases, some programs have arrived, for example, like "two for one," where the migrants, let's say, put up part of the resources, the state puts up another part or puts up two parts, let's say the federal government, the state government to do some work in the community.But that really isn't [00:18:00] solving any problem, not because basically what it's doing is forcing migrants to contribute to doing some better work in their community and when those resources could be used for their families or for something else or to fulfill their community obligations, but not necessarily carrying out the actions that the government is obliged to do, such as social works or things of that sort.So, I could say that the programs that have appeared in recent years have not helped us much to stop migration. For example, the most advertised program of the last six-year period was Sembrando Vida, right? And although that support was given to some farmers in some communities, not in all of them, we could [00:19:00] say that they were captured so that they would not migrate to the United States, but they stopped planting corn when initially the program was for them to plant more corn.They made us plant little trees, not trees that in many cases were not even from the region, that were not going to grow well or if they were going to grow well, they were not going to be useful here, because they came from other regions or if they grew, it was no longer going to be possible to grow corn in those places because they would shade the corn.We live on hillsides. There are no flat places here like in the United States, right? So, let's say that government programs that have benefited to some extent. The migratory flow that has made there less migration, well, they are not seen either. They are not seen very clearly. We see that policies continue to be established to destroy the community fabric , to expel the population . [00:20:00] from the countryside to the cities or to the United States. Chris: Thanks, Aldo. And you mentioned that your work has a lot to do with the regeneration of corn, and obviously local corn as well. Why is it so important for the people in the face of the consequences of migration?Aldo: Corn is a very important element for us. We could say that it is the heart of the community because we eat it every day. We say "native." Institutions in many places call it "criollo" out of habit, but the word is misused. We say that it is our native corn.And it is not the same to eat a tortilla made from native corn, an ear of corn from our corn, than to buy an ear of corn that they now sell in the city that was made with [00:21:00] hybrid corn or that we have to eat tortillas made with transgenic corn. Unfortunately, in recent years, I think it happens not only in the mountains, but in many other places in the country, the use of tortilla factories has increased and so we no longer know what corn they are producing those tortillas with, but they cannot be compared to the tortillas made from our corn with our own technologies. Right?So, I think that corn, for us, besides being our main food or the one we consume the most, also gives us identity. Corn, for example, calls us to work together, which is something that is not done in the United States. They all hire migrants to do their work, right? And they are going to produce what they are going to produce to sell here.The corn that is planted [00:22:00] is normally for consumption. Corn is hardly sold. And for example, now that they are setting guaranteed prices, right? Guaranteed price is MXN $6. In our communities, corn, you cannot sell it for MXN $6, or at least, you sell it for MXN $20, if you sell it, because it is the effort of your work and also by the same people in the community or even by migrants or immigrant families, it is valued as a, a food that is completely different from the corn that is bought in the store, at CONASUPO or at Diconsa or in any commercial store or what comes from tortillas? So there is a special appreciation for our corn. That is important, but it is being produced less and less. Now previously, whoever had corn was considered rich. [00:23:00] From a comparative perspective of today, anyone who has corn is considered stupid or poor because he has no money. However, especially the older peasants who say, well, "if I have corn, I don't need money" to live because I have enough food.Even before, for example, when people had to carry out their community duties, which were not paid in many communities, they started to pay for the position. The person who could occupy the position was an older agent, whose children had already grown up, but who also had corn so that he did not ask anyone for a favor about how he was going to pay for the food of his family for the year or the time that he had to be in charge of the community office.So, let's say that corn also creates community? And with these policies, lack of support or [00:24:00] elimination of support, the Mexican countryside is also hurting our forms of community organization. That's it.Chris: That's powerful. Yes, I remembered what you said, Aldo, some words that the philosopher Ivan Illich wrote, and I don't know if it's exactly what he wrote, but he basically said that for almost all of human history, the greatest measure of poverty was whether or not one had to buy one's food. That is, if you had to buy your food in the past, it was a sign, a measure of poverty, to say that you are poor if you have to buy. Gloria, do you have anything to add to that point?Gloria: Not that point, no,Chris: [00:25:00] Okay, okay. Well, I would also like to continue with what you mentioned, Aldo, about the resources and what are called remittances, and from what I have seen in the statistics, they do not say that more or less six percent of the Mexican economy is made up of remittances sent by family or friends in the United States.In some of the villages I have been invited to, I have been told that the village would not survive without remittances. In others, I have been told that the village would survive much better if people did not leave. This is a very complex issue and I wonder if the two of you could talk about that complexity that you have seen in your villages and elsewhere as a result of remittances.[00:26:00] goes beyond that topic to a vital or central question, which is whether a person can or cannot be responsible for one place while being in another place?Gloria: I say yes. Remittances have had a positive influence because thanks to them there have been many businesses, commerce and I feel that if we took away those remittances, those businesses would fall, because the money that many people spend in those businesses is money that their relatives send from the United States. Thanks to that, they buy their food, the materials they need from school supplies to personal things they need. And if in remittances, I feel that yes, it would be complicated because as until now, there are no

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight Producer Swati Rayasam showcases a community panel of how discriminatory exclusion policies during times of heightened fears of national security and safety have threatened our communities in the past, and how the activities of the current administration threaten our core constitutional rights, raising the specter of politicization and polarization of citizenship, immigration visas, naturalization rights, and the right to free speech.   Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison – “Wong Kim Ark is for All of Us” SHOW TRANSCRIPT Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to APEX Express on KPFA. My name is Swati Rayasam and I'm back as your special producer for this episode. Tonight we have an incredible community panel titled Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison. This panel explores the history of how discriminatory exclusion policies during times of heightened fears of national security and [00:01:00] safety have threatened our communities in the past, and how the activities of the current administration threaten our core constitutional rights, raising the specter of politicization and polarization of citizenship, immigration visas, naturalization rights, and the right to free speech. I'll pass it on to UC Berkeley Ethnic Studies Professor Mike Chang to kick us off. Mike and Harvey: We're starting on Berkeley time, right on time at three 10, and I want to introduce Harvey Dong. Harvey Dong: Okay. The sponsors for today's event include, AADS- Asian American and Diaspora studies program, uc, Berkeley, Asian American Research Center, the Center for Race and Gender Department of Ethnic Studies- all part of uc, Berkeley. Off campus, we have the following community groups. Chinese for Affirmative Action, Asian Law Caucus, [00:02:00] Asian Prisoners Support Committee, and East Wind Books. Okay, so that's, quite a few in terms of coalition people coming together. My name is Harvey Dong and I'm also a lecturer in the AADS program and part of the ethnic studies department. I can say that I exist here as the result of birthright citizenship won by Ancestor Wong Kim Ark in 1898. Otherwise, I would not be here. We want to welcome everyone here today, for this important panel discussion titled: Deport, Exclude, Revoke, Imprison – Immigration and citizenship rights during crisis. Yes, we are in a deep crisis today. The Chinese characters for crisis is way G in Mandarin or way gay in [00:03:00] Cantonese, which means danger and opportunity. We are in a moment of danger and at the same time in a moment of opportunity. Our communities are under attack from undocumented, documented, and those with citizenship. We see urgency in coming together. In 1898, the US Supreme Court case, US versus Wong Kim Ark held that under the 14th Amendment birthright, citizenship applies to all people born in the United States. Regardless of their race or their parents' national origin or immigration status. On May 15th this year, the Supreme Court will hear a President Donald Trump's request to implement an executive order that will end birthright citizenship already before May 15th, [00:04:00] deportations of US citizen children are taking place. Recently, three US citizen children, one 2-year-old with cancer have been deported with their undocumented parents. The numbers of US citizen children are much higher being deported because it's less covered in the press. Unconstitutional. Yes, definitely. And it's taking place now. Also today, more than 2.7 million southeast Asian Americans live in the US but at least 16,000 community members have received final orders of deportation, placing their lives and families in limbo. This presents a mental health challenge and extreme economic hardship for individuals and families who do not know whether their next day in the US will be their last. Wong Kim Ark's [00:05:00] struggle and the lessons of Wong Kim Ark, continue today. His resistance provides us with a grounding for our resistance. So they say deport, exclude, revoke, imprison. We say cease and desist. You can say that every day it just seems like the system's gone amuk. There's constant attacks on people of color, on immigrants and so forth. And our only solution, or the most important solution is to resist, legally resist, but also to protest, to demand cease and desist. Today brings together campus and community people. We want you all to be informed because if you're uninformed , you can't do anything. Okay? You have to know where things are at. It's nothing new. What they're trying to do, in 1882, [00:06:00] during times of economic crisis, they scapegoated Asian Americans. Today there's economic, political crisis. And the scapegoating continues. They're not doing anything new. You know, it's old stuff, but we have to realize that, and we have to look at the past in terms of what was done to fight it and also build new solidarities today. Wong Kim Ark did not take his situation sitting down. He went through, lots of obstacles. He spent three months in Angel Island he was arrested after he won his case because he was constantly being harassed wherever he went. His kids when they came over were also, spotted as being Wong Kim Ark's, children, and they too had to spend months at Angel Island. So Wong Kim Ark did not take his situation sitting down. We need to learn from him today. Our [00:07:00] next, special guest is Mr. Norman Wong, a good friend of mine. He was active here in the third world Liberation Front strike that led to ethnic studies. He did a lots of work for the development of Asian American studies and we've been out in touch for about, what, 40 years? So I'm really happy that he's able to come back to Berkeley and to talk about yourself, if you wish, maybe during the Q and a, but to talk about , the significance of your great-grandfather's case. Okay, so Norman Wong, let's give him a hand. Norman Wong: Hello, my name's Norman Wong. I'm the great grandson, Wong Kim Ark. Wong Kim Ark was [00:08:00] born in the USA, like my great-grandfather. I, too was born American in the same city, San Francisco, more than 75 years after him. We are both Americans, but unlike him, my citizenship has never been challenged. His willingness to stand up and fight made the difference for his struggles, my humble thanks. Wong Kim Ark however, was challenged more than once. In late 1889 as an American, he traveled to China in July, 1890. He returned to his birth city. He had his papers and had no problems with reentry. In 1895, after a similar trip, he was stopped from disembarking and was placed into custody for five months aboard ship in port. [00:09:00] Citizenship denied, the reason the Chinese exclusion Act 1882. He had to win this case in district court, provide $250 bail and then win again in the United States Supreme Court, March 28th, 1898. Only from these efforts, he was able to claim his citizenship granted by birthright from the 14th Amendment and gain his freedom. That would not be the last challenge to his being American. My mother suffered similar treatment. She like my great-grandfather, was born in America. In 1942, she was forced with her family and thousands of other Japanese Americans to relocation camps an experience unspoken by her family. [00:10:00] I first learned about Japanese American internment from history books. Executive order 9066 was the command. No due process, citizenship's rights stripped. She was not American enough. Now we have executive order 14160. It is an attack on birthright citizenship. We cannot let this happen. We must stand together. We are a nation of immigrants. What kind of nation are we to be with stateless children? Born to no country. To this, I say no. We as Americans need to embrace each other and [00:11:00] cherish each new life. Born in the USA. Thank you. Harvey Dong: Thank you, Norman. And Annie Lee, will moderate, the following panel, involving campus and community representatives who will be sharing their knowledge and experience. Annie Lee, Esquire is an attorney. She's also the, managing director of policy for Chinese Affirmative Action, and she's also, heavily involved in the birthright citizenship issue. Annie Lee: Thank you so much Harvey for that very warm welcome and thank you again to Norman for your remarks. I think it's incredible that you're speaking up at this moment, to preserve your ancestors' legacy because it impacts not just you and him, but all of us [00:12:00] here. So thank you. As Harvey said, my name is Annie Lee and I have this honor of working with this amazing panel of esteemed guest we have today. So I will ask each of them to introduce themselves. And I will start, because I would love to hear your name, pronouns. Title and organization as well as your personal or professional relationship with the US Immigration System. So my name's Annie. I use she her pronouns. I'm the managing Director of policy at Chinese for Affirmative Action, which is a non-profit based in San Francisco Chinatown. We provide direct services to the monolingual working class Chinese community, and also advocate for policies to benefit all Asian Americans. My relationship with the immigration system is I am the child of two Chinese immigrants who did not speak English. And so I just remember lots of time spent on the phone when I was a kid with INS, and then it became U-S-C-I-S just trying to ask them what happened to [00:13:00] a family member's application for naturalization, for visas so I was the interpreter for them growing up and even today. I will pass it to Letty. Leti Volpp: Hi everybody. Thank you so much, Annie. Thank you Harvey. Thank you, Norman. That was profoundly moving to hear your remarks and I love the way that you framed our conversation, Harvey. I'm Leti Volpp. I am the Robert d and Leslie k Raven, professor of Law and Access to Justice at the Berkeley Law, school. I'm also the director of the campus wide , center for Race and Gender, which is a legacy of the Third World Liberation Front, and the 1999, student movement, that led to the creation of the center. I work on immigration law and citizenship theory, and I am the daughter, second of four, children of my mother who was an immigrant from China, and my father who was an immigrant [00:14:00] from Germany. So I'll pass it. Thank you. Ke Lam: Thank you. Thank you all for being here. Thank you, Norman. So my name's Key. I go by he, him pronouns or Nghiep “Ke” Lam, is my full name. I work for an organization called Asian Prison Support Committee. It's been around for like over two decades now, and it started behind three guys advocating for ethics study, Asian and Pacific Islander history. And then it was starting in San Quent State Prison. All three of them pushed for ethics study, hard and the result is they all was put into solitary confinement. And many years later, after all three got out, was Eddie Zang, Mike Romero and Mike no. And when they got out, Eddie came back and we pushed for ethics study again, and we actually got it started in 2013. And it's been going on to today. Then the programs is called Roots, restoring our Original True Self. So reconnecting with who we are. And one of Eddie's main, mottos that really stuck with me. He said, we need to all connect to our chi, right? And I'm like, okay, I understand what chi is, and he said no. He [00:15:00] said, you need to connect to your culture, your history, which result to equal your identity, who you are as a person. So, the more we study about our history and our culture, like, birthright citizen, it empower us to know, who we are today. Right? And also part of that is to how do we take down the veil of shame in our community, the veil of trauma that's impacting our community as well. We don't talk about issue that impact us like immigration. So I'm a 1.5 generation. So I was born in Vietnam from Chinese family that migrant from China to Vietnam started business after the fall of Vietnam War. We all got kicked out but more than that, I am directly impacted because I am a stranded deportee, somebody that got their, legal status taken away because of criminal conviction. And as of any moment now, I could actually be taken away. So I live in that, right at that threshold of like uncertainty right now. And the people I work with, which are hundreds of people, are fixing that same uncertainty.[00:16:00] Annie Lee: Thank you, Ke. I'm gonna pass it to our panelists who are joining us virtually, including Bun. Can you start and then we'll pass it to Chris after. Bun: Hey everybody, thank you for having me. My name is Bun. I'm the co-director of Asian Prison Support Committee. I'm also, 1.5 generation former incarcerated and under, direct impact of immigration. Christopher Lapinig: Hi everyone. My name is Christopher Lapinig, my pronouns are he, him and Sha. I am a senior staff attorney on the Democracy and National Initiatives Team at Asian Law Caucus, which you may know is the country's first and oldest legal aid in civil rights organization, dedicated to serving, low income immigrant and underserved AAPI communities. In terms of my connection to the immigration system, I am, I also am a beneficiary of a birthright citizenship, and my parents are both immigrants from the Philippines. I was born in New York City. My [00:17:00] extended family spans both in the US and the Philippines. After graduating law school and clerking, my fellowship project was focused on providing litigation and immigration services to, survivors of labor trafficking in the Filipino community. While working at Asian Americans Advancing Justice Los Angeles, I also was engaged in, class action litigation, challenging the first Trump administration's practices, detaining immigrants in the Vietnamese and Cambodian communities. Annie Lee: Thank you, Chris. Thank you Bun. Let's start off by talking about birthright citizenship since it's a big topic these days. On the very, very first day of Trump's administration, he issued a flurry of executive orders, including one that would alter birthright citizenship. But I wanna take us back to the beginning because why do we have this right? It is a very broad right? If you were born in the United States, you are an American citizen. Where does that come from? So I wanna pose the first question to Letty to talk about the [00:18:00] origins of birthright citizenship., Leti Volpp: Very happy to. So what's being fought about is a particular clause in the Constitution and the 14th Amendment, which says, all persons born are naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. Okay, so that's the text. There's been a very long understanding of what this text means, which says that regardless of the immigration status of one's parents, all children born here are entitled to birthright citizenship with three narrow exceptions, which I will explain. So the Trump administration executive order, wants to exclude from birthright citizenship, the children of undocumented immigrants, and the children of people who are here on lawful temporary visas. So for example, somebody here on an [00:19:00] F1 student visa, somebody on a H one B worker visa, somebody here is a tourist, right? And basically they're saying we've been getting this clause wrong for over a hundred years. And I will explain to you why I think they're making this very dubious argument. Essentially when you think about where the 14th amendment came from, in the United States, in the Antebellum era, about 20% of people were enslaved and there were lots of debates about citizenship. Who should be a citizen? Who could be a citizen? And in 1857, the Supreme Court issued a decision in a case called Dread Scott, where they said that no person who was black, whether free or enslaved, could ever be a citizen. The Civil War gets fought, they end slavery. And then the question arose, well, what does this mean for citizenship? Who's a citizen of the United States? And in 1866, Congress [00:20:00] enacts a law called the Civil Rights Act, which basically gave rights to people that were previously denied and said that everybody born in the United States is a birthright citizen. This gets repeated in the 14th Amendment with the very important interpretation of this clause in Norman's great-grandfather's case, the case of Wong Kim Ark. So this came before the Supreme Court in 1898. If you think about the timing of this, the federal government had basically abandoned the reconstruction project, which was the project of trying to newly enfranchised, African Americans in the United States. The Supreme Court had just issued the decision, Plessy versus Ferguson, which basically legitimated the idea that, we can have separate, but equal, as a doctrine of rights. So it was a nation that was newly hostile to the goals of the Reconstruction Congress, and so they had this case come before them, whereas we heard [00:21:00] from Norman, we have his great-grandfather born in San Francisco, Chinatown, traveling back and forth to China. His parents having actually left the United States. And this was basically presented as a test case to the Supreme Court. Where the government tried to argue, similar to what the Trump administration is arguing today, that birthright citizenship, that clause does not guarantee universal birthright citizenship saying that children of immigrants are not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States because their parents are also not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. The Supreme Court took over a year to decide the case. They knew that it would be controversial, and the majority of the court said, this provision is clear. It uses universal language. It's intended to apply to children of all immigrants. One of the things that's interesting about [00:22:00] what the, well I'll let Chris actually talk about what the Trump administration, is trying to do, but let me just say that in the Wong Kim Ark decision, the Supreme Court makes very clear there only three narrow exceptions to who is covered by the 14th Amendment. They're children of diplomats. So for example, if the Ambassador of Germany is in the United States, and, she has a daughter, like her daughter should not become a birthright citizen, right? This is why there's diplomatic immunity. Why, for example, in New York City, there are millions of dollars apparently owed to the city, in parking tickets by ambassadors who don't bother to pay them because they're not actually subject to the jurisdiction in the United States. Okay? Second category, children of Native Americans who are seen as having a sovereign relationship of their own, where it's like a nation within a nation, kind of dynamic, a country within a country. And there were detailed conversations in the congressional debate about the [00:23:00] 14th Amendment, about both of these categories of people. The third category, were children born to a hostile invading army. Okay? So one argument you may have heard people talk about is oh, I think of undocumented immigrants as an invading army. Okay? If you look at the Wong Kim Ark decision, it is very clear that what was intended, by this category of people were a context where the hostile invading army is actually in control of that jurisdiction, right? So that the United States government is not actually governing that space so that the people living in it don't have to be obedient, to the United States. They're obedient to this foreign power. Okay? So the thread between all three of these exceptions is about are you having to be obedient to the laws of the United States? So for example, if you're an undocumented immigrant, you are subject to being criminally prosecuted if you commit a crime, right? Or [00:24:00] you are potentially subjected to deportation, right? You have to obey the law of the United States, right? You are still subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Okay? But the Trump administration, as we're about to hear, is making different arguments. Annie Lee: Thank you so much, Leti for that historical context, which I think is so important because, so many different communities of color have contributed to the rights that we have today. And so what Leti is saying here is that birthright citizenship is a direct result of black liberation and fighting for freedom in the Civil War and making sure that they were then recognized as full citizens. And then reinforced, expanded, by Wong Kim Ark. And now we are all beneficiaries and the vast majority of Americans get our citizenship through birth. Okay? That is true for white people, black people. If you're born here, you get your ci. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to go to court. You don't have to say anything. You are a US citizen. And now as Leti referenced, there's this fringe legal theory that, thankfully we've got lawyers like [00:25:00] Chris who are fighting this. So Chris, you're on the ALC team, one of many lawsuits against the Trump administration regarding this unlawful executive order. Can you tell us a little bit about the litigation and the arguments, but I actually really want you to focus on what are the harms of this executive order? Sometimes I think particularly if you are a citizen, and I am one, sometimes we take what we have for granted and you don't even realize what citizenship means or confers. So Chris, can you talk about the harms if this executive order were to go through? Christopher Lapinig: Yeah. As Professor Volpp sort of explained this executive order really is an assault on a fundamental constitutional right that has existed for more than a hundred years at this point, or, well, about 125 years. And if it is allowed to be implemented, the harms would really be devastating and far reach. So first, you know, children born in the us, the [00:26:00] parents without permanent status, as permissible said, would be rendered effectively stateless, in many cases. And these are of course, children, babies who have never known any other home, yet they would be denied the basic rights of citizen. And so the order targets a vast range of families, and not just undocument immigrants, but also those with work visas, student visas, humanitarian productions like TPS, asylum seekers, fleeing persecution, DACA recipients as well. And a lot of these communities have deep ties to Asian American community. To our history, and of course are, essential part, of our social fabric. In practical terms, children born without birthright citizenship would be denied access to healthcare through Medicaid, through denied access to snap nutritional assistance, even basic IDs like social security numbers, passports. And then as they grow older, they'd be barred from voting, serving on juries and even [00:27:00] working. And then later on in life, they might be, if they, are convicted of a crime and make them deportable, they could face deportation to countries that they never stepped, foot off basically. And so this basically is this executive order threatened at risk, creating exactly what the drafters of the 14th Amendment wanted to prevent the creation of a permanent underclass of people in the United States. It'll just get amplified over time. If you can imagine if there's one generation of people born without citizenship, there will be a second generation born and a third and fourth, and it'll just get amplified over time. And so it truly is just, hard to get your mind around exactly what the impact of this EO would be. Annie Lee: Thanks, Chris. And where are we in the litigation right now? Harvey referenced, a hearing at the Supreme Court on May 15th, but, tell us a little bit about the injunction and the arguments on the merits and when that can, when we can expect [00:28:00] that. Christopher Lapinig: Yeah, so there were a number of lawsuits filed immediately after, the administration issued its exec order on January 20th. Asian Law Caucus we filed with the ACLU Immigrant Rights Project. Literally we were the first lawsuit, literally hours after the executive order was issued. By early February, federal judges across the country had issued nationwide preliminary injunctions blocking implementation of the order. Our case is actually not a nationwide injunction. And so there're basically, I believe three cases that are going up to the Supreme Court. And, the Trump administration appealed to various circuit courts to try to undo these injunctions. But all circuit courts upheld the injunctive relief and and so now the Supreme Court is going to be hearing arguments on May 15th. And so it has not actually ruled on whether or not the executive order is constitutional, but it's going to. I mean, it remains to be seen exactly what they're going to decide but may [00:29:00] 15th is the next date is the big date on our calendar. Annie Lee: Yeah. So the Trump administration is arguing that these judges in a particular district, it's not fair if they get to say that the entire country, is barred from receiving this executive order. Is that procedurally correct. Judges, in order to consider whether to grants an injunction, they have a whole battery of factors that they look at, including one, which is like likelihood of winning on the merits. Because if something is unconstitutional, it's not really great to say, yeah, you can let this executive order go through. And then like later when the court cases finally worked their way, like a year later, pull back from that. And so that's, it's very frustrating to see this argument. And it's also unfair and would be very messy if the states that had republican Attorneys General who did not litigate, why would you allow the executive order to go forward in those red states and not in these blue state? It really, I would say federalism run terribly amuck. Swati Rayasam: [00:30:00] You are tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley,. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. Annie Lee: But anyway, let's see back off from the actual case because I think what we're really talking about and what Chris has alluded to is, these cases about birthright citizenship, all the immigration policy is essentially determining who belongs here. Who belongs here. That's what immigration policy is at its heart. And we see that the right wing is weaponizing that question, who belongs here? And they are going after very vulnerable populations, undocumented people, people who are formerly incarcerated. So Bun if you can talk about how, is the formerly incarcerated community, like targeted immigrants, targeted for deportation? What is going on with this community that I feel like most people might not know about? Thank [00:31:00] you. Bun: Yes. For our folks that are incarcerated and former incarcerated, we are the easiest target for deportation because we are in custody and in California, CDCR colludes with ICE and on the day that we are to be paroled they're at the door, cuffing us up and taking us to detention. I'm glad to hear Harvey say, this is a time of fear for us and also opportunity. Right now, our whole community, the Southeast Asian community, mainly are very effective with immigration. In the past 25 years, mostly it was the Cambodian community that was being targeted and deported. At this moment, they are targeting, all of the Southeast Asian community, which historically was never deported because of the politics and agreements, of the Vietnamese community. And now the Laos community thats more concerning, that are being targeted for deportation. Trump have opened a new opportunity for us as a community to join [00:32:00] together and understand each other's story, and understand each other's fear. Understand where we're going about immigration. From birthright to crimmagration. A lot of times folks that are under crimmigration are often not spoken about because of our cultural shame, within our own family and also some of our community member felt safe because the political agreements. Now that everybody's in danger, we could stand together and understand each other's issue and support each other because now we could see that history has repeated itself. Again, we are the scapegoat. We are here together fighting the same issue in different circumstances, but the same issue. Annie Lee: But let me follow up. What are these, historical agreements that you're talking about that used to feel like used to at least shield the community that now aren't in place anymore? Bun: Yeah. After the Clinton administration, uh, passed the IRA [immigration reform act] a lot of Southeast Asian nations were asked to [00:33:00] take their nationals back. Even though we as 1.5 generation, which are the one that's mostly impacted by this, had never even stepped into the country. Most of us were born in a refugee camp or we're too young to even remember where they came from. Countries like Cambodian folded right away because they needed the financial aid and whatever, was offering them and immediately a three with a MOU that they will take their citizens since the early two thousands. Vietnam had a stronger agreement, which, they would agree to only take folks that immigrated here after 1995 and anybody before 1995, they would not take, and Laos have just said no until just a few months ago. Laos has said no from when the, uh, the act was passed in 1995, the IRRIRA. Mm-hmm. So the big change we have now is Vietnam had signed a new MOU saying that they will take folks after 1995 [00:34:00] in the first administration and more recently, something that we never thought, happened so fast, was Laos agreeing to take their citizen back. And then the bigger issue about our Laos community is, it's not just Laos folks. It's the Hmong folks, the Myan folks, folks, folks that are still in danger of being returned back 'cause in the Vietnam War, they colluded and supported the Americans in the Vietnam War and were exiled out and kicked out, and were hunted down because of that. So, at this moment, our folks are very in fear, especially our loud folks, not knowing what's gonna happen to 'em. Ke Lam: So for folks that don't know what IRR means it means, illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act. It actually happened after the Oklahoma bombing, which was caused by a US citizen, a white US citizen. Yeah. But immigration law came out of it. That's what's crazy about it. Annie Lee: Can you tell us, how is APSC advocating to protect the community right now because you [00:35:00] are vulnerable? Ke Lam: So we had to censor a lot of our strategies. At first we used to use social media as a platform to show our work and then to support our community. But the government use that as a target to capture our people. So we stopped using social media. So we've been doing a lot of on the ground movement, such as trying to get local officials to do resolutions to push Governor Newsom to party more of our community members. The other thing is we hold pardon workshops, so try and get folks to get, either get a pardon or vacate their sentence. So commute their sentence to where it become misdemeanor is not deportable anymore. Support letters for our folks writing support letters to send to the governor and also to city official, to say, Hey, please help pardon our community. I think the other thing we are actually doing is solidarity work with other organizations, African American community as well as Latin communities because we've been siloed for so long and we've been banned against each other, where people kept saying like, they've taken all our job when I grew up. That's what they told us, right? [00:36:00] But we, reality that's not even true. It was just a wedge against our community. And then so it became the good versus bad narrative. So our advocacy is trying to change it it's called re-storying you know, so retelling our story from people that are impacted, not from people, not from the one percenters in our own community. Let's say like we're all good, do you, are there's parts of our community that like that's the bad people, right? But in reality, it affects us all. And so advocacy work is a lot of different, it comes in a lot of different shapes and forms, but definitely it comes from the community. Annie Lee: Thanks, Ke. You teed me up perfectly because there is such a good versus bad immigrant narrative that takes root and is really hard to fight against. And that's why this administration is targeting incarcerated and formerly incarcerated folks and another group that, are being targeted as people who are accused of crimes, including Venezuelan immigrants who are allegedly part of a gang. So, Leti how is the government deporting [00:37:00] people by simply accusing them of being a part of a gang? Like how is that even possible? Leti Volpp: Yeah, so one thing to think about is there is this thing called due process, right? It's guaranteed under the constitution to all persons. It's not just guaranteed to citizens. What does it mean? Procedural due process means there should be notice, there should be a hearing, there should be an impartial judge. You should have the opportunity to present evidence. You should have the opportunity to cross examinee. You should have the opportunity to provide witnesses. Right? And basically Trump and his advisors are in real time actively trying to completely eviscerate due process for everybody, right? So Trump recently said, I'm doing what I was elected to do, remove criminals from our country. But the courts don't seem to want me to do that. We cannot give everyone a trial because to do so would take without exaggeration, 200 years. And then Stephen Miller said the judicial process is for Americans. [00:38:00] Immediate deportation is for illegal aliens. Okay. Quote unquote. Right. So I think one thing to notice is, as we're hearing from all of our speakers are like the boxes, the categories into which people are put. And what's really disturbing is to witness how once somebody's put in the box of being quote unquote criminal gang banger terrorists, like the American public seems to be like, oh, okay you can do what you want to this person. There's a whole history of due process, which exists in the laws which was created. And all of these early cases actually involved Asian immigrants, right? And so first they were saying there's no due process. And then in a case called Yata versus Fisher, they said actually there is due process in deportation cases, there's regular immigration court proceedings, which accord with all of these measures of due process. There's also a procedure called expedited removal, [00:39:00] which Congress invented in the nineties where they wanted to come up with some kind of very quick way to summarily exclude people. It was motivated by a 60 Minutes episode where they showed people coming to Kennedy Airport, who didn't have any ID or visa or they had what seemed to be fake visas and they were let into the United States. And then they disappeared, right? According to the 60 Minutes episode. So basically Congress invented this procedure of, if you appear in the United States and you have no documents, or you have what an immigration inspector thinks are false documents, they can basically tell you, you can leave without this court hearing. And the only fail safe is what's called a credible fear screening. Where if you say, I want asylum, I fear persecution, I'm worried I might be tortured, then they're supposed to have the screening. And if you pass that screening, you get put in regular removal [00:40:00] proceedings. So before the Trump administration took office, these expedited removal proceedings were happening within a hundred miles of the border against people who could not show that they had been in the United States for more than two weeks. In one of his first executive orders. Trump extended this anywhere in the United States against people who cannot show they've been in the United States for more than two years. So people are recommending that people who potentially are in this situation to carry documentation, showing they've been physically in the United States for over two years. Trump is also using this Alien Enemies Act, which was basically a law Congress passed in 1798. It's only been used three times in US history it's a wartime law, right? So it was used in 1812, World War I, and World War II, and there's supposed to be a declared war between the United States and a foreign nation or government, or [00:41:00] there's an incursion threatened by a foreign nation or government, and the president makes public proclamation that all natives of this hostile nation, 14 and up shall be liable to be restrained and removed as alien enemies. Okay? So we're obviously not at war with the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua, right? They have not engaged in some kind of invasion or predatory incursion into the United States, but the Trump administration is claiming that they have and saying things like, oh, they're secretly a paramilitary wing of the Venezuelan government, even as the Venezuelan government is like cracking down on them. It's not a quasi sovereign, entity. There's no diplomatic relationships between Tren de Aragua and any other government. So these are legally and factually baseless arguments. Nonetheless, the administration has been basically taking people from Venezuela on the basis of tattoos. A tattoo of a crown of a [00:42:00] rose, right? Even when experts have said there's no relationship between what Tren de Aragua does and tattoos, right? And basically just kidnapping people and shipping them to the torture prison in El Salvador. As I'm sure you know of the case of Kimber Abrego Garcia, I'm sure we'll hear more about this from Christopher. There's a very small fraction of the persons that have been sent to this prison in El Salvador who actually have any criminal history. And I will say, even if they had a criminal history, nobody should be treated in this manner and sent to this prison, right? I mean, it's unbelievable that they've been sent to this prison allegedly indefinitely. They're paying $6 million a year to hold people there. And then the United States government is saying, oh, we don't have any power to facilitate or effectuate their return. And I think there's a struggle as to what to call this. It's not just deportation. This is like kidnapping. It's rendition. And there are people, there's like a particular person like who's completely [00:43:00] disappeared. Nobody knows if they're alive or dead. There are many people in that prison. People don't know if they're alive or dead. And I'm sure you've heard the stories of people who are gay asylum seekers, right? Who are now in this situation. There are also people that have been sent to Guantanamo, people were sent to Panama, right? And so I think there questions for us to think about like, what is this administration doing? How are they trying to do this in a spectacular fashion to instill fear? As we know as well, Trump had said oh, like I think it would be great when he met with Bukele if you build four more or five more facilities. I wanna house homegrown people in El Salvador, right? So this is all the more importance that we stick together, fight together, don't, as key was saying, don't let ourselves be split apart. Like we need a big mass coalition right? Of people working together on this. Annie Lee: So thank you leti and I think you're absolutely right. These Venezuelans were kidnapped [00:44:00] in the middle of the night. I mean, 2:00 AM 3:00 AM pulled out of bed, forced to sign documents they did not understand because these documents were only available in English and they speak Spanish, put on planes sent to El Salvador, a country they've never been to. The government didn't even have to prove anything. They did not have to prove anything, and they just snatch these people and now they're disappeared. We do have, for now the rule of law. And so Chris, there are judges saying that, Kimber Abrego Garcia has to be returned. And despite these court orders, the administration is not complying. So where does that leave us, Chris, in terms of rule of law and law in general? Christopher Lapinig: Yeah. So, I'm gonna make a little personal. So I graduated from Yale Law School in 2013, and you might know some of my classmates. One of my classmates is actually now the Vice President of the United States. Oh man. [00:45:00] Bless you. As well as the second lady, Usha Vance. And a classmate of mine, a good friend Sophia Nelson, who's a trans and queer, was recently on, I believe CNN answering a question about, I believe JD Vice President Vance, was asked about the administration's sort of refusal to comply with usual orders. Yeah. As we're talking about here and JD had said something like, well, courts, judges can't tell the president what he can't do, and sophia, to their credit, said, you know, I took constitutional law with JD, and, we definitely read Marbury Versus Madison together, and that is the semial sort of Supreme Court case that established that the US Supreme Court is the ultimate decider, arbiter, interpreter, of the US Constitution. And so is basically saying, I know JD knows better. He's lying essentially, in all of his [00:46:00] communications about, judicial orders and whether or not a presidential administration has to comply , with these orders. So, to get to your question though, it is of course unprecedented. Really. It is essentially, you know, it's not, if we not already reached. The point of a constitutional crisis. It is a constitutional crisis. I think it's become clear to many of us that, democracy in the US has operated in large part, and has relied on, on, on the good faith in norms, that people are operating good faith and that presidents will comply when, a federal judge issues an injunction or a decision. It kind of leaves us in an interesting, unprecedented situation. And it means that, lawyers, we will continue to litigate and, go to court, but we can't, lawyers will not save the country or, immigrants or communities. We need to think extensively and creatively. [00:47:00] About how to ensure, that the rule of law is preserved because, this administration is not, abiding by the longstanding norms of compliance and so we have to think about, protests, advocacy, legislatively. I don't have the answers necessarily, but we can't rely on the courts to fix these problems really. Annie Lee: Oof. That was very real, Chris. Thank you. But I will say that when there is resistance, and we've seen it from students who are speaking up and advocating for what they believe is right and just including Palestinian Liberation, that there is swift retaliation. And I think that's partly because they are scared of student speech and movement and organizing. But this is a question to all of you. So if not the courts and if the administration is being incredibly retaliatory, and discriminatory in terms of viewpoint discrimination, in people and what people are saying and they're scouring our social [00:48:00] media like, Ke warns, like what can everyday people do to fight back? That's for all of you. So I don't know who, which of you wants to take it first? Ke Lam: Oh man. I say look at history, right? Even while this new president, I wanna say like, this dude is a convicted felon, right? Don't be surprised at why we country is in the way it is, because this dude's a convicted felon, a bad business person, right? And only care about the billionaires, you know? So I'm not surprised how this country's ending up the way it is 'cause it is all about money. One way that we can stand up is definitely band together, marched on the streets. It's been effective. You look at the civil right movement, that's the greatest example. Now you don't have to look too far. We can actually, when we come together, they can't fight us all. Right? It is, and this, it's like you look at even nature in the cell. When things band together, the predators cannot attack everyone. Right? They probably could hit a few of us, but in the [00:49:00] long run, we could change the law. I think another thing is we, we, as the people can march to the courts and push the courts to do the job right, despite what's going on., We had judges that been arrested for doing the right thing, right? And so, no matter what, we have to stand strong just despite the pressure and just push back. Annie Lee: Thanks, Ke. Chris? Christopher Lapinig: What this administration is doing is you know, straight out of the fascist playbook. They're working to, as we all know, shock and awe everyone, and make Americans feel powerless. Make them feel like they have no control, make them feel overwhelmed. And so I think first and foremost, take care of yourself , in terms of your health, in terms of your physical health, your mental health. Do what you can to keep yourself safe and healthy and happy. And do the same for your community, for your loved ones, your friends and family. And then once you've done that do what you can in terms of your time, treasure, [00:50:00] talent to, to fight back. Everyone has different talents, different levels of time that they can afford. But recognize that this is a marathon and not necessarily a sprint because we need everyone, in this resistance that we can get. Annie Lee: Thank you, Chris. Leti Volpp: There was a New Yorker article called, I think it was How to Be a Dissident which said, before recently many Americans, when you ask them about dissidents, they would think of far off countries. But they interviewed a lot of people who'd been dissidents in authoritarian regimes. And there were two, two things in that article that I'm taking with me among others. One of them said that in surveying like how authoritarian regimes are broken apart, like only 3.5% of the population has to oppose what's going on. The other thing was that you should find yourself a political home where you can return to frequently. It's almost like a religious or [00:51:00] spiritual practice where you go and you get refreshed and you're with like-minded people. And so I see this event, for example as doing that, and that we all need to find and nurture and foster spaces like this. Thank you. Annie Lee: Bun, do you have any parting words? Bun: Yeah. Like Ke said, to fight back, getting together, understanding issues and really uplifting, supporting, urging our own communities, to speak Up. You know, there's folks that can't speak out right now because of fear and danger, but there are folks here that can speak out and coming here learning all our situation really give the knowledge and the power to speak out for folks that can't speak down [unclear] right now. So I appreciate y'all Annie Lee: love that bun. I was gonna say the same thing. I feel like there is a special obligation for those of us who are citizens, citizens cannot be deported. Okay? Citizens have special rights based [00:52:00] on that status. And so there's a special responsibility on those of us who can speak, and not be afraid of retaliation from this government. I would also urge you all even though it's bleak at the federal level, we have state governments, we have local governments. You have a university here who is very powerful. And you have seen, we've seen that the uni that the administration backs down, sometimes when Harvard hit back, they back down and that means that there is a way to push the administration, but it does require you all putting pressure on your schools, on your local leaders, on your state leaders to fight back. My boss actually, Vin taught me this. You know, you think that politicians, lead, politicians do not lead politicians follow. Politicians follow and you all lead when you go out further, you give them cover to do the right thing. And so the farther you push and the more you speak out against this administration, the more you give them courage to do the right thing. And so you absolutely have to do that. A pardon [00:53:00] is critical. It is critical for people who are formerly incarcerated to avoid the immigration system and deportation. And so do that. Talk to your family, talk to your friends. My parents, despite being immigrants, they're kinda old school. Okay guys, they're like, you know, birthright citizenship does seem kind of like a loophole. Why should people like get like citizenship? I'm like, mom, we, I am a birthright citizen. Like, um, And I think for Asian Americans in particular, there is such a rich history of Asian American civil rights activism that we don't talk about enough, and maybe you do at Berkeley with ethnic studies and professors like Mike Chang. But, this is totally an interracial solidarity movement. We helped bring about Wong Kim Ark and there are beneficiaries of every shade of person. There's Yik wo, and I think about this all the time, which is another part of the 14th Amendment equal protection. Which black Americans fought for that in San Francisco. [00:54:00] Chinatown made real what? What does equal protection of the laws even mean? And that case was Seminole. You've got Lao versus Nichols. Another case coming out of San Francisco. Chinatown about English learner rights, the greatest beneficiary of Lao v Nichols, our Spanish speakers, they're Spanish speaking children in schools who get access to their education regardless of the language they speak. And so there are so many moments in Asian American history that we should be talking about, that we should educate our parents and our families about, because this is our moment. Now, this is another one of those times I wanna pass it to Mike and Harvey for questions, and I'm so excited to hear about them. Mike and Harvey: Wow, thank you so much. That's a amazing, panel and thank you for facilitating annie's wanna give it of a great value in terms of that spiritual home aspect. Norm how does your great grandfather's , experience in resistance, provide help for us [00:55:00] today? Norman Wong: Well, I think he was willing to do it. It only took one, if no one did it, this, we wouldn't be having the discussion because most of us would've never been here. And we need to come together on our common interests and put aside our differences because we all have differences. And if we tried, to have it our way for everything, we'll have it no way for us. We really need to, to bond and bind together and become strong as a people. And I don't mean as a racial or a national group. Mm-hmm. I mean, we're Americans now. We're Americans here think of us as joining with all Americans to make this country the way it's supposed to be. The way [00:56:00] we grew up, the one that we remember, this is not the America I grew up believing in. I'm glad he stood up. I'm proud that he did that. He did that. Him doing that gave me something that I've never had before. A validation of my own life. And so yes, I'm proud of him. Wong Kim Ark is for all of us. It's not for me to own. Yeah. Wow. Really not. Thank you so much. Wong Kim Ark is for all of us. And, and , talking about the good , that we have here and, the optimism that Harvey spoke about, the opportunity, even in a moment of substantial danger. Thank you so much everybody. Mike and Harvey: This was amazing and really appreciate sharing this space with you and, building community and solidarity. Ke Lam: But is there any, can I leave with a chant before we close off? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. So this is a chant that we use on the ground all the time. You guys probably heard it. When I said when we fight, you guys said we [00:57:00] win when we fight. We win when we fight, we win. When we fight, we win up. Swati Rayasam: Thanks so much for tuning into APEX Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, along with Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Ravi Grover, and me Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support, and have a good [00:58:00] night.   The post APEX Express – 6.26.25-Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison – Wong Kim Ark is for All of Us appeared first on KPFA.

Antoine Larvol, CTO of Windar Photonics, discusses how their continuous wave LiDAR technology enhances wind turbine performance through optimization and monitoring, increasing AEP and reducing loads, particularly for legacy turbines. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard's StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes' YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind. Energy's brightest innovators. This is the Progress Powering Tomorrow. Alright, we're here in Phoenix, a CP, clean power, uh, 2025. So I'm, uh. Sitting with Antoine Larvol from, he's a CTO from Windar. Yep. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Uh, we've been, uh, happy enough to get actually to sit inside your booth where it's nice and qui. Quiet and isn't it nice? Yeah. We got glass behind the camera here and people are walking by, walking by, walking by. Um, so this morning, uh, we, we talked yesterday a little bit about what wind photonics does. Yep. Of course, from our, uh, some of our other friends around the world. We've heard about some, some campaigns you've done in the United States, which have been. Really successful. So yeah, congrat good. Congratulations there. Yeah, thank you. Um, and, and as, as a lot of things in the wind industry, Windar, photonics based in Denmark.  Antoine Larvol: Yeah.  Joel Saxum: So you guys, uh, bring it, bring in that Danish [00:01:00]technology. We're here, of course, bringing it to the US market at a CP, the American Clean Power Show. So welcome to the States. Thank you. Um, it's a short one, but a  Antoine Larvol: good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah,  Joel Saxum: exactly. So, so I want to talk a little bit about what Windar photonics and, and it is a LIDAR based sensor, correct?  Antoine Larvol: Yes. Right. So. We do continuous wave base, uh, lidar. Yep. Uh, main product is a two beam version mm-hmm. Where you shoot, uh, at 80 meters in front of the turbine. Mm-hmm. And you basically alternate from one beam to the other. And measure wind speed and direction upfront, the, the turbine among others.  Joel Saxum: Right. So we're talking about, uh, if you, if you're in the wind industry, you've ever seen these lidar units that are put actually, you're the cell mounted, correct? Yes. Okay. Yeah. So, and, and, uh, we're looking more on the optimization, retrofit monitoring side of things. Yeah,  Antoine Larvol: exactly. So we've never been a resource assessment company. Yeah. Or we don't look at power curve verification and stuff like that. We really [00:02:00] focus on. Retrofitting those, existing turbines. And then add value to In terms of information to, the customer, Yeah. With the mon monitoring side of things. Yeah. And, from day one, that's been the goal of Windar Making something cheap, robust. That can just stay there and measure with good availability, wind speed, and direction coming to your turbine.  Joel Saxum: I love it. so we wanna squeeze as much as we can outta these turbines. And you guys are increasing AEP that's, the name of the game. Yeah. Right.  Increasing AEP below rated. and then above rated you decrease loads. Increase uptime. and we basically do that by going on the line of the wind direction. that you then feed to the turbine controller and then we can actually adjust the, yaw position of the turbine according to our information. So I want to talk a little bit, we, we chatted a little bit offline about the, technology behind it, right? Yep. And people in the wind industry, if you're around the wind industry around resourcing or you're around optimization, you've heard [00:03:00] lidar. Yep. You know what I mean? And,

Welcome back to the 237th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 237th episode we bring you a Duet Review of of Sweet Sorrow, the latest immersive theatrical experience to open in Toronto that's presented by À Toi & Coffee Oysters Champagne. Join Mackenzie Horner and special guest Alicia Plummer, as they discuss the perfect atmosphere this production has set up, how this piece compares to other immersive pieces we've previously covered, and they break down the very intense ending sequence of the show. Sweet Sorrow is playing at Coffee Oysters Champagne (214 King St W Basement Level 1, Toronto, ON M5H 3S6) every Sunday at 6:30pm and 8:30pm until early September 2025. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/sweet-sorrow-tickets-1269670491619 This review contains many SPOILERS for Sweet Sorrow. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [10:07] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeN Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Alicia Plummer – Instagram: @itsaliciaplummer // TikTok: hialiciabyealicia Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

On continue notre mini série sur le parcours client ! Aujourd'hui, je m'arrête sur deux étapes cruciales : la prise de contact et la démonstration. Tu sais, ce moment où tu entames la discussion avec ton prospect… puis celui où tu lui montres que tu peux vraiment l'aider. Dans cette MM, je t'aide à clarifier ton approche et à choisir les bons leviers pour donner envie d'aller plus loin. Et toi : – Tu t'y prends comment pour démarrer la discussion ? – Tu montres quoi à tes prospects pour qu'ils aient des paillettes dans les yeux ? (Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

Tiff and Dana are in the mood to talk about moods — specifically when it comes to setting the tone for patients and case acceptance. The two discuss overcoming objections from a foundational level, including your mindset, effective language, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners we are so excited to be here with you today. I have back on the podcast with me Miss Dana. I am so excited to see your beautiful smiling face today and gosh Britt did Rim to Rim, Grand Canyon Rim to Rim recently and Dana   I've lived here my whole life. I am an Arizona girl. I love the mountains and I'm like, gosh, people just go out there and it's like, why didn't you bring water? Right? Like you guys are crazy. You've been here for a long time. You hike avidly. Your husband hikes more avidly than anyone I know and knows the Arizona mountains like the back of his hand as if he grew up here. And I'm like, yeah, I could do rim to rim. And then Britt got back and I was like,   Dana (00:47) you   The Dental A Team (00:48) Okay, Dana, like we should do Rim to Rim, but holy cow. If you guys don't know what Grand Canyon Rim to Rim is, please go look it up. It's like an event that people literally, my boyfriend says to have like, you take it for granted. People literally come here from other countries to see the Grand Canyon. I do take it for granted, that's fair. But hearing Britt's story, Dana, I'm like, holy cow. If we are going to ever do that in our lifetime, I think we need to start today.   What do how do you prepare for that?   Dana (01:18) Yeah, my biggest   takeaway is like the planning of it because I like because I avidly had because my husband like you're right hikes more than any human on earth like I'm just like we can just go do room term and honestly, I'll be like I was like, no, I'm doing rim to rim to rim. Like I'm not loving at the first. I'm not starting at just rim. And then hearing her I'm like, Okay, well, I definitely need to plan.   The Dental A Team (01:22) Yes!   Literally.   Yes!   Yes!   literally the same.   Dana (01:45) more   because I'm like I hike in Arizona all the time. I know what the heat is. I know how to hydrate. I know how to do all those pieces. I'm like but maybe I should plan it out a little bit more.   The Dental A Team (01:54) Literally what I said, my takeaway was I did not do planning for it and I didn't, I just, I don't know, I'm take it for granted. I didn't think it was necessary. I'm like, I hike, I work out, I run, I do the stair climber, I do cycle, I do spin classes. Like I am pretty okay to just like sign up for a race and do it and whatever and I thought the same thing minus the rim to rim trip. I was not going an extra rim.   I thought I could just pop over and do rim to rim like no big deal people do it all the time constantly can't be that hard just kidding just kidding so I think we need it on our bucket list here within the next I would say three years based on the fact that I'm over 40 at this point I'm not gonna lie to myself I'm not I need to get myself three years to get this sucker done ⁓ and probably shorter than that so Dina we just need to prep and plan for this sucker   Dana (02:53) Yep. Yeah,   we just need to pick a date, right? Because if I don't pick a date, can think I'm going to plan all I want. ⁓ So I just need to pick a date and then I will force myself to plan. Now that I know how much prep I should probably put into it.   The Dental A Team (02:55) We need to a Yep.   same. Same z's.   I agree.   I agree. I tell people that constantly. I'm like, gosh, the most fit you'll ever be is when you know vacation is coming. You will have bikini body ready when you know that vacation is coming. But when there's not something planned, you're like, I'll do it. I'll eat this for now and I'll make it up later. I do it constantly. So you're right. Okay.   Everybody just congratulate Britt for surviving rim to rim. And that's a real statement for surviving. Um, it's a huge feat. It's massive. So if you are on our Instagram, which I'm sure you are just give her a shout out. If you see her face in there, if you're one of her clients and didn't know she did it, congratulations. Here you go. Text her. Um, but it was super cool. So Dana, we're going to put it on our list. That's our next to do. We'll add it to, uh, our fitness challenge thing over there.   channel. Today guys, I wanted to talk about more than the Grand Canyon, but seriously if you don't know what it is, you should look it up. And if you are planning on coming and you don't live in Arizona, like seriously you think we need to plan like prep and freaking plan you guys? There was another hiker this weekend and it's not even our true ⁓ hot season yet and there was another hiker this weekend in Phoenix that did not make it through her hike and she was an avid avid hiker. So it's no joke you guys.   ⁓ Please be safe. So on that note, overcoming objections is actually what I wanted to talk about today. So rim to rim is my objection today. I'm not ready for it. I get that. But overcoming objections in the practice, you guys, we really want to talk about case acceptance and what that might look like. And doctors, office managers, I know sometimes we get in the space of like, this is for my treatment coordinator. Doctors, this is for you too, especially when you're chair-side treatment planning. Because sometimes I feel like   Dana, feel like doctors get that look of glazed over, like, okay, either this is too much information or I've checked out because I have an objection, but we just talk through it, right? And how many times have we even done that in a personal relationship? That makes me laugh because I'm thinking, even my kid, I'll just keep talking at him and wait for him to catch up. And then he's like, yeah, sure. And then turns around and I'm like, I don't think that's gonna happen. Whatever that was. He checked out. He's obviously no, right? Yeah.   Dana (05:24) I'm thinking that, no.   The Dental A Team (05:27) Like he checked out and I didn't catch it. So the moment when there's a checkout, like that's your objection. There's an objection in there somewhere. Either it was overload of information or they're just not, they're not on board yet because of a reason. I like to go into everything assuming, yes, I live my life that way. My boyfriend's constantly like telling me that I'm like a golden retriever. Right, I'm just like, yep, life is great, what's next, let's go. Because it's just a detour. Whatever it is, it's just a detour.   And it's an opportunity to gain more information, in my opinion. So if there's a no, if there's a roadblock, I'm like, cool. What can I learn from this? What information do I need in order to get around this roadblock? Or should I be taking a different route? So it's a detour. So when I go into a treatment case, when I'm presenting treatment or when I'm training team members to present treatment and doctors, I'm constantly in the yes mindset.   Tony Robbins talks a lot about mindset, about mind frame, on where you're supposed to be, and that yes zone is massive. If I assume the yes, I'm leaving opportunity for that. And Dana, isn't it true, like when you go into a conversation with the like, yeah, everything's gonna be fine, you're more optimistic, right? You're not set on an end result necessarily, and if it's not fine or a yes,   it gives you that opportunity to create something new. And do you feel like Dana, I have a question, an actual real question, because I live my life this way, but like, I don't always check in with other people. People coming to you with that open mindset, right? That like, yep, this is gonna be fantastic. Does that then set the tone for you on that conversation? Like you as a person, whether it's personal, professional, whatever it is, does that set the tone for the conversation for you being like, okay, well, this is an opportunity?   rather than it being like, this is a conversation. Like, how does that feel on the other side,   Dana (07:24) Yeah, and I think it's funny that you asked that question. I agree, it does set the tone and I think though it's harder to see when it's from that mindset.   right? Like I think we very easily see when someone negative sets our tone negative, right? But I don't think we always understand that like the initiative and the consciousness that the person that is setting the positive tone is doing. And so I think it's harder to relate to or harder to think that it works because it's very easy to spot it when it's the other way, not necessarily when it is the positive outlook and the positivity that breeds the positive. So I love that you specifically asked that question because I firmly do believe it. I think it's just a   The Dental A Team (07:33) Yeah.   Dana (08:03) little bit harder to see.   The Dental A Team (08:05) Yeah, that was a   huge massive point because it's like anything we're always going to remember the negative more than the positive, right? So I always tell teams, well, number one, this rolls into case acceptance as well because if you get a no and you carry it, you're always going to remember that no, you could have 10 yeses today and that one person said no to two fillings. And it's like, oh, I suck, right? But I just sold 10 freaking implants, right? But it's like getting your hair done. And I say, you're walking down the street.   walking down the street and you're like, gosh, my hair, it's so good. I got bangs today. And you've got like nine people walk by you. And they're like, dang, I really like your hair today. I really like your hair, right? Nine people tell you, you look amazing. And one person stops you on the street and they say, gosh, I like your hair, but I'm just not sure I would have gone with bangs. When you get home or when you get into your car, what are you doing? You're looking in the mirror and you're second guessing your choice on bangs. You're not saying,   Nine people and myself love my hair right now. You're saying one person's second guest bangs. Why did I do this? Should I have done this? And I think that's exactly what you just said too, Dana. It's really easy to be like, gosh, they just like came in so aggressive and just totally changed my mood. This person put me in a bad mood. One of my least favorite statements of all time. I get to choose the mood I'm gonna be in. That's my power and my control.   ain't nobody taking that away from me. But we say that, right? Like this person just totally changed the mood, but it's not always noticeable when someone comes in with a positive, right, or an open mind and they change that or they keep the mood that you've been in. You're totally right. It's not always noticeable, but it makes a huge impact. So your patients may not notice that you're like, hey, let's go. They may not notice that they're like, yeah, like let's figure this out instead of being in like a gosh,   Dana (09:49) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (09:59) treatment mood. So huge point there, Dana. I love that you pointed that out because going into it with that mindset, you're not going to reap 100 % of the accolades and the rewards. They're not going to be like, thanks so much for being so positive all the time. You might get that every now and again, but we're looking for that feedback and we're not always getting it. So then we get worn down and we're like, why even try? When you're tracking your results, you're going to know why you try.   when you're tracking those yeses, when you're just tracking the conversations even, like you're not always gonna get a yes, that's okay. And that's what we're here about today is those objections. When you go in with that yes mindset of like, I can do anything. It's not always this person's gonna say yes to this treatment. It's this person is gonna say yes to their health and we're gonna get them there. So I go in thinking, this is a huge opportunity to learn more about this patient and to get them healthier.   I don't always go into it, which I think is a mindset shift, Dana, for the healthcare field in general. We think like, I'm selling treatment. You are selling treatment, but you're selling someone their health back, right? So I'm selling you back your health. You are unhealthy. You came to me with a deficit, and I'm selling you back your health, right? And so when we put it in that perspective, we put in the perspective of learning and opportunity, it shifts the mindset quite a bit. So.   That was a fun tangent. Thank you everyone for following along with us. I hope you gleaned some opportunities there and some mindset shifts. I think it's huge. Now, Dana, when they do come in, they're like, okay, we've got this, we've got this. And then they're like, I'm just not ready. Like, what do you, you train a lot of systems, you train a lot of communication and a lot of ⁓ verbiage, that people like to call it scripts, right? What do you tell your teams is the best path to take?   when you do get an objection.   Dana (11:54) Yeah, I think that I think first of all, Mr. Preface that right. I always try to teach teams that anything outside of a yes is a no. Right. So but there are no's that are true no's and then there are solvable no's. And so it's it really helps teams to kind of know the difference. Like a true no would be I'm leaving tomorrow to go out of town for three months and like I truly cannot do the treatment. Right. Or ⁓   I just bought a new house and haven't paid my first mortgage payment. Like I want to wait until I make that that's a true no, right? Or there's then they're solvable knows which are, you know, gosh, I don't know if I'm ready or I need to talk to a spouse or ⁓ that's a lot, you know, that's a lot financially or all of those are solvable knows and usually the easiest way to solve them is to ask better questions to find out what is the actual   barrier, right? Because driven coordinators, we teach them a lot, you've got a lot of tools, you've got a lot of things that you can offer patients. ⁓ But what I want you to do is hone in on what to offer instead of throwing the book at them, right? Like, well, here are all of my solutions and now you choose. Well, they don't actually know what those choices mean, or they don't actually know what to pick in those choices. So I think it's asking questions to get down to the bottom of   The Dental A Team (12:56) Yes.   Dana (13:09) what is holding the patient back so that you can provide the right solution for that patient.   The Dental A Team (13:15) Yes, I totally agree. You made me think of ⁓ the game Guess Who? Do you remember that game? When we were little? I think it's back around again and they have way cooler pictures, by the way. Ours were like, ours were bad when it was like trending back when we were kids. Anyways, Guess Who is the game where you flip your board up and you've got all the pictures of the different characters and you're one of the characters on the other person's board. You've got your little card down here.   and that other person is supposed to try to guess which character you are by asking questions. So you say, do you have dark hair? No, okay, great, we'd mark down all the dark hairs. Then we say, do you wear glasses? Yes, okay, so anyone who doesn't have glasses, we mark down those guys, and it leaves you with a couple of options, and you narrow it down until you're so sure you have the answer, and that's what I feel like treatment coordinating is like. You have this massive board.   of options, of opportunities, and you're like, okay, great, what do we need to overcome today? And we're narrowing it down until we get to the actual root cause or the root issue that the person's suffering because...   I mean, I'm not gonna lie to you. I've seen so many memes recently and I'm like, that is so me, where they're like, if she says she has to check with her husband, I mean, she doesn't wanna go because she ain't gotta check with her husband. Like, that's me. If I'm like, let me check our calendar. I know what our calendar is. And if I'm saying that, I just don't feel comfortable telling you no in the space that we're in. I'm gonna text you because it's less invasive and it's less confrontational. So I'm just gonna text you later.   Right? So when they're like, I need to talk to my husband, right? I have had instances, I do have to, I do have to caveat this. I have had instances where that is a hundred percent true, but I've said to them, totally, I completely agree with you and I would never want you to make a decision without consulting your spouse financially. I never support that. Right? I want you guys to be on the same page. What I would suggest is let's set up a consultation where both of you can be here with us or can he come, is he here? Can he come in?   because what I'd hate to do is for you to get home and have to try to reiterate everything that I just said today and everything that you learned from the dentist. That's a lot of information for you to carry. It's a heavy weight for you to carry, and I'd love to help support you in that. So is he here? Is she here? Can we get you guys scheduled? Now, I've got a soft no, a soft no because we're not scheduling the treatment yet, which you   Dana (15:44) Thank   The Dental A Team (15:49) You still can, you can say, let's schedule this for two weeks out, let's get him in before then, right? Let's hold the space, let's get you and your spouse back before that, so let's try for Thursday, whatever. It's a soft no, but I'm still scheduling them for something, and I'm still providing support for my patient, because I want my patient to be healthy.   That's all I want. I want my patients to be healthy. And if it means that I have to have an additional conversation with a spouse in order to get that patient healthy, I'm going to do that. I'm 100 % going to do that. So whatever that objection is, it's finding that space around the objection that's providing the ultimate benefit to the patient. So I've even had it, Dana, you said even like vacation. I've had patients, we have snowbirds in Arizona. Super cool.   Phoenix gets a ton of snowbirds. We love you all. Sometimes the roads get crazy, you guys. It's fast driving here. You got to keep up. Anyways, we get snowbirds and these snowbirds come. They're like, gosh, well, I'm heading back in two weeks. I'm like, shoot, like I don't have anything in the schedule for two weeks in the next two weeks. Right. So I'm like, hey, let me see what I can do. Let me see what I can move around. Let me see whatever. If I can get them in, I will. Or we've had snowbirds that are like, hey, I'm only gone for three months in the summer. I'll be back.   1st of September, great. Let's schedule you for the second week in September because I want to make sure this is taken care of. And if for some reason something gets worse while you're gone and you've got to see your dentist back home, tell us. We'll take it off the schedule because I just want you to get taken care of. So if you get it done there, let us know. If not, we're going to put you down for the second week in September because I just want to make sure that they're investing in their health.   to the best of their own capabilities. And I have the tools for them to do that. Something I talked with a client about last week, was not everybody knows. Patients don't know to ask the questions they don't know. And I was in office with a practice last week, and we were talking about ⁓ educational overload and confusion. And we often over talk because we're trying to educate past objections we think people might have.   And in response to that, we can create decision paralysis and just educational confusion. And something that I said was, if you're giving them this much information, like there's so much information, sometimes they don't know what questions to ask to gain clarity. And so Dana, to your point, us asking them questions will bring that out.   Dana with that said, what kind of questions do you train teams to be able to ask either chair side or at treatment coordinating upfront?   Dana (18:49) Yeah, so I think that it comes down to just like, ⁓   Asking questions to understand is it is it a like do you understand the actual treatment right? Like do you understand what a crown is? Do you understand? ⁓ Do you remember what the doctor said as far as why you need the treatment? Do you know what will happen if we do nothing right because I think some of the times it is like they may understand the treatment They may know what a crown is they may remember why but they they struggle with   How do I put they struggle with like, where do I prioritize this? Right? And so if I've got an AC repair, right? Well, it's 110 degrees out in Arizona. And if I don't have AC, right, like, so where do they put it in their priority list of things to get done? So sometimes it's okay to say, Hey, what other big things do you have coming up? Right? Because you may be able to help them with that priority.   The Dental A Team (19:29) Yeah.   Dana (19:50) Like, the doctor review with you, if we do nothing, what's going to happen, right? Do you understand the risk of like not doing this treatment, where that puts you? So I think it's just figuring out what part of it they don't understand. Is it the actual treatment? Is it the reason for the treatment? Or is it that they don't know how to prioritize it in all the things because life is busy, right? And things are happening and there's other expenses elsewhere. And so how can you help them prioritize where to put that?   The Dental A Team (20:11) Yeah.   Dana (20:19) in all of the other noise that they have going on in their lives.   The Dental A Team (20:22) Yeah, and to that point of prioritization, Dana, in addition to that, I think a lot of treatment plans are delivered with this is everything you need, okay, goodbye. And there's no prioritization put on the treatment that is next, the next visit. And I had a doctor recently tell me, well, like, it's their mouth. And I said, you are the only person that can make this decision with and for them. You have to tell them what the most important next step is, even if it's like,   All of this is about the same. Where I would start is upper right. I don't know, what's the easiest, what's the hardest? What do you want to start with when you don't know the priority? The issue is that patients don't know a lot about dentistry. Most patients don't know a lot about dentistry. So when you leave it up to them, they're making a decision based on not a lot of knowledge. You have all the tools under your belt.   prioritize the treatment that needs to be done and then help and assist your patient in prioritizing getting that treatment done. I love it. So I would say in an effort to overcome objections, first and foremost, be open-minded. Go into it as a conversation, go into it as an opportunity, and make sure that your mindset is set. If you just got off of a really hard call, if you just had a patient berate you, if you just walked down the street and someone yelled at you,   I want you to be like, okay, how can I shift my mindset right now? And then ask all of the questions. What questions can you ask that help prioritize your patient's treatment? So you place the priority, go in with an open mindset, you tell them what's next, what do they need to do next, and then help ask all of those questions. You guys just get them over the hurdle. Do not assume what their hurdle is.   because you can implant an idea and make yourself some big problems there, ask the questions. I love it. I usually say, Dana, be in the why, or be in the what. Be in the question. You guys, if you go into any conversation open-minded, meaning leaving room to ask for more information, whatever that conversation is just became tenfold easier. go do the things, you guys. Dana, we got to put rim to rim.   You can do the extra rim if you want. I'm doing two. We gotta put it on our calendar, rim to rim. You can all wait for you at the other side and pick you back up if you're doing that extra rim. But we gotta put that on our calendars. And Dana, thank you for podcasting with me today. I love our time together. Listeners, thank you so much for being here. As always, write in at Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and let us know what you think. Thanks so much, everyone.  

Al and Kevin talk about Tiny Garden Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:01:25: Anti Relationship Drama Rant 00:05:34: Actual Intro 00:06:56: What Has Kevin Been Up To 00:16:46: Anti Capitalist Rant 00:30:31: What Has Al Been Up To 00:42:44: Game News 01:03:41: Tiny Garden 01:18:27: Outro Links Len’s Island 1.0 Update Sun Haven 2.5 Update Moonstone Island “Evolutions” Update Disney Dreamlight Valley “Mysteries of Skull Rock” Update Snacko 1.0.1 Update Fantasy Life i: The Girl Who Steals Time “Roguelike” Update Harvest Moon: Home Sweet Home coming to Steam/Consoles Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al. (0:00:35) Kev: My name is Kevin last I’ve been told (0:00:37) Al: And we’re here, and we’re here today to talk about Cottagecore Games. (0:00:42) Kev: Cottage core games whoo (0:00:45) Al: Oh, (0:00:48) Al: oh, we are here. (0:00:51) Al: We’re going to talk about when we are here, I’m alive. (0:00:54) Kev: No (0:00:54) Al: So if I sound tired, this episode is because I’ve had a very busy Saturday. (0:00:58) Al: We were meant to record on Sunday, (0:01:00) Al: to schedule a meeting with me on a Sunday instead. (0:01:04) Al: So I’m doing that. It’s not a work thing. (0:01:06) Al: Don’t worry, I’m not doing work at the weekend. (0:01:08) Al: But it wasn’t really a meeting I could get out of. (0:01:11) Al: So we rescheduled to Saturday, the day that I have all of the family stuff. (0:01:15) Al: So much stuff, way too much stuff. (0:01:15) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:01:17) Al: So I am here and I’m alive. (0:01:18) Kev: Now he’s getting his performance review from his family tomorrow, that’s the me (0:01:26) Al: I saw I saw a TikTok of a couple who do like weekly. (0:01:30) Al: Weekly Relationship Review and people like people got so annoyed about it and I’m like, I don’t understand why you’re annoyed about this. (0:01:38) Al: It’s not they’re not like judging each other and giving each other a right, a raise. (0:01:44) Al: They’re they’re discussing the things that they’re they’ve done and they’re discussing what they’ve got coming up this week and they’re seeing if there’s anything they need to plan and talk about. (0:01:44) Kev: - Yeah. (0:01:52) Al: This is a very good thing to do. (0:01:54) Al: And I think a lot I think the world will be a lot a better place if a lot more people who were in relationships did. (0:02:00) Al: This but I know most people who are in relationships don’t even want to be in those relationships. (0:02:02) Kev: - Yeah. (0:02:05) Al: Miserable people, measurable people who just want to mock somebody and I think the world would be a better place without those relationships. (0:02:15) Al: So but but hey, I actually love my wife. (0:02:16) Kev: Ohhh, goodness. (0:02:18) Al: So sue me. (0:02:22) Kev: I’ll come out guns blazing this episode, um… (0:02:25) Al: I just I get so annoyed with the boomer joke of like all my ball and chain. (0:02:30) Al: My wife is like, OK, like leave them then. (0:02:32) Kev: Yeah, it (0:02:37) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:02:37) Al: I just I show and why are you staying there? (0:02:40) Al: I mean, this is why your kids are terrible people, because you they don’t know what a family looks like, because you’re just going to hate your your partner and resent them for it and then take it out on your children. (0:02:53) Kev: Yeah, it’s it’s fascinating. Well, I mean obviously one the you know that attitude mentality has somewhat shifted to a degree (0:03:04) Kev: but it’s fascinating just (0:03:06) Kev: To you know, there’s been studies done and whatever I’ve read some stuff like because you know back in the day (0:03:12) Kev: You your dating pool was limited to pretty much whoever was in the neighborhood, right? (0:03:14) Al: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Least objection will prepare us on my street. (0:03:19) Kev: Right (0:03:21) Kev: Yep, right, so you know (0:03:23) Kev: That kind of environment leads to the ball and chain mentality, right? (0:03:29) Kev: But you know current day and age with the online and the you know, generally easier ish travel (0:03:39) Kev: Obviously that’s no longer the case (0:03:42) Al: Also, you can be single, right? Like, I’m not saying it’s easy, right? Like, as someone who has (0:03:45) Kev: You can’t sure (0:03:48) Kev: Yeah (0:03:49) Al: basically never been single, right? Like, I got married when I was 22, like, I, you know, (0:03:51) Kev: Uh-huh (0:03:56) Al: been with, well, first got together with my wife when I was 16, right? So, like, I am not a single (0:04:02) Al: person. I have very rarely been a single person, but you can do that. That’s the thing you can do. (0:04:08) Kev: You, you can. Yeah. (0:04:09) Al: Like, if you hate someone, you don’t have to- (0:04:11) Kev: You can. (0:04:12) Al: you don’t have to spend your time with them! You can just not, and you can have friends instead. (0:04:14) Kev: Yeah. Yeah. (0:04:16) Al: And I suspect, if there were more people who didn’t stay in loveless marriages, (0:04:21) Al: then maybe being single would be less terrible as well, because there would be more single people. (0:04:24) Kev: Yeah, yeah, well again, you know the culture back then very different right like marriage was (0:04:25) Al: Crazy idea. (0:04:32) Al: Yeah, but it’s not a solved problem. There are still a lot of miserable people, (0:04:35) Kev: It is not you’re right you’re (0:04:36) Al: and there’s a lot of people who think that marriage is just one of the things you have to do. (0:04:40) Kev: Yeah, you know you’re right that pressure is absolutely still there um yeah (0:04:46) Al: Quite often external to the person who’s being pressured into it, I suspect. (0:04:49) Kev: Absolutely absolutely (0:04:55) Al: Friendships are important, and we need to have friendships and not assume that the only (0:04:59) Al: relationship that matters is a romantic one. There we go, I’m done. (0:05:02) Al: One name. (0:05:02) Kev: Okay, well, you know, yes, these are true. You’re saying things that are true and not particularly objectionable, but you know, you’re, you’re arguing against the hundreds of years of weird cultural nonsense so yeah, yeah, so. (0:05:17) Al: Well, there is that. (0:05:20) Al: Listeners, listeners object to it. (0:05:22) Al: I want to see your arguments for why everyone should get married. (0:05:26) Al: I will vehemently disagree with them because they’re stupid, (0:05:27) Al: and you probably don’t believe them. (0:05:29) Al: But give me them anyway. (0:05:30) Al: It’ll be fun to have an argument. (0:05:32) Kev: That’s what we do on this show. We argue against. (0:05:35) Al: We’re going to talk about Tiny Garden this episode. (0:05:37) Al: So this is the… (0:05:37) Kev: I thought we were here to delve into culturally in a relationship mechanics. (0:05:43) Al: It’s a relationship episode. (0:05:45) Al: Kevin, tell me about like. (0:05:47) Al: Tell me about your relationships, and no don’t I don’t I don’t think I don’t think the pod needs to hear them (0:05:49) Kev: Oh, yeah, I mean, that’s it. Well, romantic ones, that’s easy. They don’t exist. Otherwise, well, that’s, that’s, yeah, okay. (0:06:03) Kev: Okay, moving on, um. (0:06:04) Al: I don’t think I don’t think the podcast needs to hear your therapy. (0:06:08) Kev: Yeah, no, that that is little of my therapist is for him. Okay, I love my family but good heavens I can’t live with them can’t live without them sort of deal. (0:06:19) Kev: Yeah. (0:06:19) Al: Can’t live with them, have to live with them. (0:06:21) Kev: Yeah. (0:06:22) Al: We are going to talk about Tiny Garden. (0:06:24) Al: It is the Polly Pocket farming game. (0:06:26) Kev: Yep. (0:06:28) Al: Kevin has not played it, he thought about playing it and never did. (0:06:31) Al: I have played it a little bit. (0:06:34) Al: And so it’s going to be a reasonably… (0:06:36) Al: Kevin watched some videos. (0:06:37) Al: You watched some videos, right? (0:06:38) Kev: Yeah, yeah, I mean it’s not like it’s a particularly in-depth game, right like yeah, so even (0:06:43) Al: No, no, let’s start. (0:06:44) Al: Well, let’s save that. (0:06:45) Al: Save that for the, save that for the, save it for the pod. (0:06:46) Kev: Okay. All right. Well, okay (0:06:48) Al: We’re already in the pod. (0:06:49) Al: Save it for the appropriate section, Kevin. (0:06:52) Al: Before that, we have a bunch of news. (0:06:54) Al: This has been a reasonably busy Newsweek. (0:06:56) Al: But first of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:06:59) Kev: Okay, not a lot of work as I tend to do because I’m I don’t know work (0:07:07) Kev: but (0:07:08) Kev: aside from that, let’s see here um okay you know i’m gonna take a brief second to (0:07:14) Kev: talk about zone the zone zero my segment for nobody but me um so the 2.0 update came out (0:07:16) Al: Go for it. (0:07:20) Kev: I didn’t have internet when it did but I have internet again i’ve caught up i’ve done the 2.0 (0:07:25) Kev: stuff and you know it’s added a lot of stuff that anyone who plays the game might be interested but (0:07:31) Kev: for people who don’t it did i’d be talking nonsense the the big thing I think is interesting (0:07:36) Kev: is kind of the tonal shift. (0:07:38) Kev: So Zenless Zone Zero, the 1.0, the chapter 1, whatever, the first year of the game, (0:07:46) Kev: it was the aesthetic, the tone of it was very, it’s going to sound very like 2000, like (0:07:55) Kev: OTS, you know, that decade specifically. (0:07:59) Kev: People have flip phones and they’re still like CRTs and stuff like that. (0:08:04) Kev: And it’s very sci-fi heavy. (0:08:08) Kev: The main characters are hackers. (0:08:11) Kev: And there’s these like monsters that spawn out of fake matter called the ether or whatever. (0:08:19) Kev: Anyways, the point is it’s very sci-fi heavy. (0:08:21) Kev: That’s the tone and not like super futurama or Jetsons futuristic sci-fi, just like current, (0:08:30) Kev: you know, more current day looking tech. (0:08:34) Kev: But that’s the tone. (0:08:35) Kev: I’m just comparing it to like Genshin is much more fantasy based. (0:08:38) Kev: I’m just painting the picture because they shifted the tone in 2.0, the protagonists join a temple of monks like you know like, sort of a, gosh I wish I had the proper names, (0:09:05) Kev: But you know the stereotypical like (0:09:08) Kev: Temple out in the mountains where monks are trading wonder martial arts and mysticism and that sort of thing (0:09:15) Kev: And so that’s that’s kind of the direction they’re going with (0:09:20) Kev: There’s a new like city area that you’re spending your time in. It’s very much based off (0:09:26) Kev: that kind of (0:09:28) Kev: Not so rural Japan China, but like out in the mountains sort of area (0:09:34) Kev: So it’s a very different feeling from the (0:09:38) Kev: Bay City, which is very like (0:09:42) Kev: Metropolitan lots of big buildings and skyscrapers and whatever that that one feels more like I don’t know Beijing (0:09:49) Kev: I guess you know very modern type China and this one is a more this new area. This new tone is much more traditional (0:09:57) Kev: Chinese (0:09:59) Kev: And you know, it’s it’s it’s fun. I’ll nothing’s nearly wrong (0:10:03) Kev: It’s just I don’t feel so different because the whole first year of the game (0:10:07) Kev: your your tacker person. (0:10:08) Kev: and you you you do hacker things and now you’re training to be a mystic very very odd to me at least but but but anyways regardless the game is still fun I’m still playing it yada yada so that’s that let’s see what else Pokemon unite all Kremie came out all Kremie is great it’s a supporter it does all the things you’d want it to do it it decorates and heals your team it’s unite it creates (0:10:28) Al: - Ah, nice. (0:10:30) Al: - Ow, creamy. (0:10:38) Kev: it’s a giant cake and stands on top of it and it just spreads globs of healing whipped cream to all your teammates I like all Kremie it’s very fun I mean I like all Kremie the Pokemon period and it’s great and unite so yay all Kremie um let’s see other than that uh oh you know I’m gonna take a second here to talk about card games okay so (0:11:08) Kev: you probably don’t keep up with magic the gathering years have you heard anything about magic the gathering recently mm-hmm okay okay okay yeah yeah yeah (0:11:12) Al: I used to play a lot of magic when I worked in an office because there was a magic (0:11:19) Al: league there, but I’ve not kept up basically since 2019. I’m aware that there’s been a lot of (0:11:28) Al: crossover sets recently. There was a Doctor Who one, I believe, A Lord of the Rings one, (0:11:32) Al: a Final Fantasy one, so I’m aware that they’re doing a lot of crossovers just now and there are (0:11:38) Al: many opinions about that shall we see. (0:11:38) Kev: y’all (0:11:40) Kev: there are many opinions. So the Final Fantasy one came out a week ago, I think, the Final (0:11:42) Al: Right, yeah. (0:11:46) Kev: Fantasy crossover set. And this one is a particularly contentious set for two reasons. One, it is (0:11:55) Kev: what they call a standard set, meaning that it is in the card pool. In previous crossovers (0:12:03) Kev: sets, they would kind of, you know, they wouldn’t be standard legal or tournament legal or whatever, (0:12:08) Kev: You know, they’d be kind of more for funs easy. (0:12:08) Al: Oh, interesting. Okay. (0:12:10) Kev: Or, you know, just for between friends or whatever, right? (0:12:12) Kev: This one is in, in your face, like in the card pool. (0:12:17) Kev: And a lot of people aren’t happy about it because there’s the (0:12:19) Kev: crossovers have been so prevalent lately. (0:12:22) Kev: Um, but you know, that that’s, that’s one discussion. (0:12:26) Kev: The other issue that isn’t less of opinions and more just like out cry (0:12:32) Kev: outrage, um, is the insane pricing. (0:12:37) Kev: uh… because magic the gathering has gone through the roof (0:12:40) Kev: in terms of cost (0:12:41) Kev: uh… (0:12:43) Kev: so okay you know here out for comparison (0:12:46) Kev: uh… any other game pokemon yugioh (0:12:49) Kev: work on a whatever (0:12:51) Kev: a pre-constructed deck they go out to the store and buy off the shelf (0:12:55) Kev: can be let’s say fifteen dollars on average us_d (0:12:57) Al: Mm-hmm, yep, yep. (0:12:58) Kev: okay (0:12:59) Kev: uh… it is what it is just maybe (0:13:00) Al: Science, science fair, science fair. (0:13:02) Kev: yeah right it’s it’s it’s fine (0:13:04) Kev: you know dig to get you started to a product that you can actually start (0:13:08) Kev: start playing the game, right? (0:13:10) Kev: In Magic the Gathering, so they come out with commander decks, you know, there’s different formats and command is the popular one (0:13:18) Kev: That’s that’s their primary like pre-constructed deck thing that comes out (0:13:25) Kev: Right now they came out or it was just last year they had updated the MSRP to be about you believe (0:13:32) Kev: $45 (0:13:34) Al: Oh, for a… because a commander’s 40 cards, is that right? Oh, a hundred, right? Okay, sorry. (0:13:35) Kev: USD (0:13:40) Kev: To be fair it is it is a bigger deck right, but it’s in my opinions (0:13:42) Al: My bad. A hundred cards for for $45, that’s wild. (0:13:46) Kev: You know (0:13:47) Kev: It’s pricey. It’s it’s very pricey, right? (0:13:51) Kev: I’m just you know, I think that illustrates the scale of like how much magic costs now, right? Okay (0:13:57) Kev: Final fantasy set because they know final fantasy is popular people (0:14:02) Kev: They know a Hasbro Hasbro is the the current owner of the magic franchise and makes these pricing decisions (0:14:10) Kev: They know people are gonna be excited. They marked up the MSRP for the Final Fantasy set (0:14:19) Kev: The a (0:14:21) Kev: Commander pre-con for Final Fantasy is I believe 70 USD MSRP (0:14:28) Kev: I’d say that because a lot of (0:14:30) Kev: You know, it’s a lot of local card games and shops that will run carry these products (0:14:36) Kev: they will mark up their products anyways even if there is an MSR (0:14:40) Kev: so you know these things are going through the roof like over $100 and (0:14:45) Kev: whatnot and so it’s insanity and that’s not even the premium they came out with (0:14:51) Kev: these premium versions of these decks where like the everything’s foil or (0:14:54) Kev: whatever those are 125 MSRP I think something ridiculous so so obviously you (0:15:04) Al: Hmm. Yeah. (0:15:08) Kev: You know, they are just… (0:15:10) Kev: They are just robbing the customers blind, and obviously people aren’t happy, but they are still selling like hotcakes because I don’t know, that’s the magic of players I guess. (0:15:20) Kev: As I’ve been on record, I have dabbled in magic, but I’m not very keen on those prices, so I don’t pick up a lot. (0:15:28) Kev: But, I do like Final Fantasy, and here’s the kicker, right, if the cards suck, that’d be easier just to not play, but a lot of the cards are good looking, or they look fun to play or whatever. (0:15:40) Kev: So, the temptation is there. (0:15:42) Kev: So, what I did is instead of buying any Final Fantasy stuff for magic, I went back to the actual Final Fantasy trading card game, which I need to remind people actually exists. (0:15:54) Kev: It’s still going, it’s still coming out with stuff. (0:15:56) Kev: So yeah, I did a game night with some friends, and we played out of not wanting to spend money, we dusted off some Final Fantasy decks, and that’s it. (0:16:10) Kev: That was fun. And man, the Final Fantasy TCG, it’s pretty good. (0:16:14) Kev: I like the rhythm of the game, it’s not insane or busted right now. (0:16:18) Kev: And the cards, it’s a very weird thing, but the card stock, they’re very thick and durable, it’s not a flimsy paper cardboard thing. (0:16:26) Kev: It’s very nice, it feels almost plastic-y. (0:16:30) Kev: But anyways, yeah, I picked up and played some Final Fantasy TCG, that’s fun stuff, just because magic’s insane. (0:16:40) Kev: I’m not gonna do that again right now. (0:16:42) Kev: But that that’s that’s all I’ve been going on not not too terribly much. What about you l what you’ve been up to? (0:16:46) Al: Well I want to go on an anti-capitalist rant first. So your comments about them, you know, (0:16:49) Kev: I mean as we do (0:16:56) Al: marking up the stuff, it reminds me of a thing I’ve been annoyed about recently, where people (0:17:04) Al: will go “oh everything’s expensive” and then other people go “oh that’s just supply and demand” (0:17:09) Al: as if supply and demand is like some inherent law of physics that means that (0:17:16) Al: the price is out of our hands. The demand is high therefore the price must be high. (0:17:23) Al: Yeah that’s not how that works. It’s not like the price is determined by, you know, (0:17:29) Al: what a seller wants to sell for it and what a buyer wants to buy for it and meeting somewhere (0:17:32) Kev: Mm-hmm. (0:17:34) Kev: Right. (0:17:36) Al: where, you know, if they try and put it too high then people won’t buy it blah blah blah etc etc. (0:17:40) Kev: Mm-hmm. (0:17:41) Al: And supply and demand just says that as demand, as supply increases… (0:17:47) Al: and demand decreases, no, is that what I said? There’s a point in the middle where they meet (0:17:53) Al: and you’ve got like a ideal price, if you will, based on the amount of supply and the amount of (0:17:53) Kev: Yes (0:17:57) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:17:59) Al: demand. And all really supply and demand means is that if there’s a high demand and a low supply, (0:18:05) Al: they can charge basically whatever they want, right? Like that is how it’s not like the price (0:18:12) Al: has to be sold for a certain point, right? Like they just go, we know people are (0:18:16) Al: going to buy it, therefore supply and demand says we can charge more, and we’ll get more money. (0:18:22) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:18:23) Al: Right? Like that is just how it works. And I just, it gets really frustrating when people are like, (0:18:27) Al: “Oh, it’s just supply and demand.” As if, “Oh, don’t look at me. I’m not the one deciding the (0:18:32) Al: price. Supply and demand is deciding the price.” What are you talking about? That’s not how this (0:18:38) Al: works, right? Like we decide prices, and if people think it’s too high, and they don’t buy it like (0:18:45) Al: you have done. (0:18:46) Al: enough people did what you were doing, they would have to decrease the price to sell (0:18:48) Kev: Yeah. Well. (0:18:50) Al: it. (0:18:51) Al: But of course, we are willing to spend the money. (0:18:54) Al: Enough people are willing to spend the money that they can just sell it for whatever they (0:18:58) Al: want and people will keep going up. (0:19:01) Al: You know, it’s like how, it’s the reason the Mario Kart world is $80. (0:19:07) Al: It’s because they know people will buy it and supply and demand for the record makes (0:19:11) Al: no sense in our digital economy, right? (0:19:15) Al: like there is no there is no (0:19:15) Kev: Yeah, and it is. (0:19:16) Al: it’s infinite supply so theoretically supply and demand should say that if (0:19:21) Al: there’s infinite supply there should be a very very low price it just like that (0:19:26) Kev: Yeah well, well, yeah (0:19:28) Al: is but no that’s not how it actually works because that’s the price is based (0:19:33) Al: on what people are actually willing to pay but that’s if you if you took purely (0:19:35) Kev: Yes, yeah (0:19:38) Al: supply and demand and nothing else and said this is what this means digital (0:19:42) Al: games should be free. (0:19:43) Kev: Well, that’s it. Well, here’s the thing, right? Okay, as I’m sure you can, I’ve only took like two economics class. I do a little economics though, but here’s the thing, right? Supply into it. That is, what is supply? You want to dive into that? That’s what determines supply. Now we’re getting into something, right? (0:19:58) Al: All right, yeah, okay, fair enough. Fair enough. I guess like the supply for a digital game (0:20:06) Al: is the number of consoles that are, right? Like you’re not going to… (0:20:08) Kev: Yeah, or, or, right, it’s, yeah, and, and in terms of the price. (0:20:13) Kev: Right, like the, you know, that, what did you see in economics? (0:20:16) Kev: You see the, you see like a graph, right? (0:20:19) Kev: Which is like, I guess number of units and number of, uh, and the price or whatever. (0:20:23) Kev: And so you’re right. (0:20:24) Kev: Um, it, uh, it gets weird digitally, but what determines that graph? (0:20:30) Al: That’s my point. That’s my point is there’s so, there’s so many things that break down. (0:20:31) Kev: Where does, yeah. (0:20:33) Al: It’s not in an, in a, in a, I love the, have you ever had the physics joke, um, which is, uh, Oh, two seconds. (0:20:43) Al: Let me double check so I don’t end up saying it. (0:20:46) Kev: Is it, I mean, I know a couple physics joke as an engineer, nerd, major, degree holder. (0:20:53) Al: So, there was the physics joke, right, where there’s a farmer whose chicken wouldn’t lay (0:20:59) Kev: Uh-huh, yep. (0:20:59) Al: any eggs. And to solve the problem, he hires a physicist. And the physicist says, “Oh, (0:21:06) Al: I’ve come up with a solution, but my solution requires a spherical chicken in a vacuum.” (0:21:08) Kev: Uh-huh. (0:21:12) Al: And the point of that joke is that so many things in physics are theoretical and only (0:21:17) Kev: Yeah, yeah. (0:21:19) Al: work in a very specific set of scenarios. (0:21:23) Al: And you can’t then necessarily say, “This happens here, therefore that happens in (0:21:28) Al: the real world as well.” (0:21:29) Al: And I feel like a lot of economics of that is that as well. (0:21:32) Al: It’s like in this perfect ideal economic world where these 10 things all exist, then this (0:21:36) Kev: Yeah (0:21:39) Kev: No (0:21:39) Al: will happen. (0:21:40) Al: And it’s like, but that’s not how the world works. (0:21:42) Al: And digital games is a perfect example of how that just completely falls on us. (0:21:46) Al: It falls over, right? (0:21:47) Al: Like, because it just, it doesn’t make any sense. (0:21:49) Al: What is supply when you’re talking about a digital thing? (0:21:52) Al: It’s not a thing. (0:21:53) Al: Right? (0:21:54) Al: It doesn’t make any sense. (0:21:54) Kev: Yeah, and and I’m really we yeah, you know we can get down to it really if (0:22:02) Kev: This would be a more interesting conversation if you know, we were looking at just supply factors like okay (0:22:09) Kev: How do you distribute, you know, what are the competition yada yada, whatever, right? (0:22:13) Kev: But we all know the truth in the current day and age late-stage capitalism, whatever you want to call it (0:22:19) Kev: there is a significant portion of that price being determined by (0:22:24) Kev: The shareholders the see the executives. They just want a whole lot of money (0:22:30) Kev: the day (0:22:32) Kev: That’s that’s what it all boils down to oh (0:22:34) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:22:36) Kev: Man, man. Okay, you know, all right since we’re on this (0:22:40) Kev: The absurdity of economics and and prices I’ll go back. I’ll go right back to magic (0:22:46) Kev: Are you familiar with magic 30? (0:22:48) Al: I am not. Is it a version of Magic where you have 30 cards? (0:22:52) Kev: No (0:22:52) Al: Ah, good guess though, right? (0:22:55) Kev: Yeah, oh that mmm, you know, I actually I think standards 40 so you’re not far off that that would be fun, but um, okay (0:23:05) Kev: Okay, here it is so this was a couple years ago (0:23:11) Kev: Magic the Gathering (0:23:14) Kev: Whatever Hasbro was to the coast whatever they released a project called magic 30 or it’s the med the 30th anniversary edition set (0:23:23) Al: - Ah, okay, yep. (0:23:25) Kev: Okay, this was this was a 2022 that the year was okay (0:23:30) Kev: and so (0:23:32) Kev: it’s it’s probably the most absurd like magic product ever released because (0:23:40) Kev: each box (0:23:41) Kev: This product contained 15 booster packs and these booster packs the cards inside them were like, oh, you know (0:23:48) Kev: Very classic original magic cards or whatever with original art (0:23:53) Kev: So much so that (0:23:55) Kev: It was so faithful to the original stuff that because magic rotates and has you know form different formats (0:24:01) Kev: They actually said okay. None of these cards are actually going to be playable (0:24:06) Kev: They’re just not gonna be legal in anything. It is basically just fake real fake cards that we’re printing. We’re collecting I guess (0:24:16) Kev: Okay (0:24:18) Kev: How how much would you pay for a box of (0:24:23) Kev: 15 packs of fake cards. (0:24:24) Kev: Real fake cards, Al. (0:24:26) Al: I mean it depends what it is, right? Like, so let’s create a scenario where this is Pokémon, (0:24:32) Al: right? It’s essentially just like a collector’s deck that you can never use in tournaments. (0:24:36) Al: I’m not going to use it in tournaments, it doesn’t really affect how much I would pay for it, right? (0:24:40) Al: Like I’m a sucker who will pay stupid amounts of money for collector’s things, (0:24:45) Al: so probably way too much money. I think if we’re… So if we’re just talking a deck, (0:24:48) Kev: Okay, give me (0:24:51) Al: so we’re talking… How many… Was that a 40 pack, a standard set? (0:24:52) Kev: Yeah (0:24:54) Kev: It was 15 packs is what it was here. Yep. No, no (0:24:57) Al: Oh, 15 packs. Oh, it’s not even a deck, right? OK. So let’s go with… (0:25:06) Al: I feel like in the world where this is Pokémon, maybe I’m paying like £5 a pack, (0:25:08) Kev: You know what hope (0:25:14) Al: because that’s more… I think it’s like £3 a pack just now in the UK, (0:25:18) Al: so we’re maybe talking like £75. And that would feel like… That would maybe feel like a lot, (0:25:22) Kev: Okay. (0:25:24) Al: and I’d be like oh I don’t know how (0:25:27) Kev: Okay. (0:25:28) Kev: So let’s see, five pounds, I’ll just forget. (0:25:30) Kev: Okay, that’s about six, seven USD. (0:25:32) Kev: Okay, sure. (0:25:34) Kev: So times 15, that’s, what is that? (0:25:36) Kev: 50 plus 25, that’s 75. (0:25:38) Kev: Okay, so that’s 75 pounds, (0:25:40) Kev: which yeah, about 100 USD maybe. (0:25:42) Kev: Okay, okay, I see what you’re saying, right? (0:25:45) Al: But like, that’s not “I’m definitely going to buy that.” (0:25:47) Al: That’s “Ooh, that feels like a lot. (0:25:50) Kev: Yeah, sure, sure, sure. (0:25:50) Al: Maybe I would buy it if it was something I really wanted.” (0:25:52) Kev: Right. (0:25:53) Kev: Yeah, okay, that’s the crazy price. (0:25:55) Kev: And then that’s good, okay. (0:25:57) Kev: Yeah, okay, I understand. (0:25:58) Kev: You know what, I can see that. (0:26:01) Kev: Yeah, you know what? (0:26:02) Kev: I could agree with that price, right? (0:26:04) Kev: For the hardcore collector who really wants the thing. (0:26:07) Kev: Yeah, you know what, I could say that. (0:26:09) Kev: All right, now, what if I told you the price (0:26:12) Kev: of this magic product was 10 times what you just told me? (0:26:16) Al: What? Ten times. So what? A thousand? A thousand dollars. That is… (0:26:20) Kev: 10 times. (0:26:22) Kev: USD. Yup, 999 technically. laughs (0:26:28) Al: I mean, OK, right. So we laugh at that, but Pokemon basically did that, right? With their… (0:26:33) Al: They had a collector’s box, limited edition, and it was several hundred dollars. I can’t even remember (0:26:40) Kev: - Sure, wasn’t four digits. (0:26:41) Al: it was. But like, I mean, that was more than that was, I wasn’t four digits, it was. (0:26:46) Al: Three digits, but I feel like it was not far off it, and it did include, it did include, (0:26:50) Al: like, you know, very nice dice and card sleeves and stuff like that. I can’t remember how (0:26:54) Kev: oh yes you know if you get a nice uh is it like the charizard premium collection is that the one (0:26:55) Al: much it was. Do you know the box I’m talking about? No, no, no, I’m talking about there (0:27:00) Kev: you’re talking or is it a different one oh oh the the one yes the really nice one that they (0:27:02) Al: was like an. Yes, the like all black one, I can’t remember what it was called. (0:27:06) Kev: did in a direct yes yes I remember that yes yeah yeah to be fair like didn’t that have like a full (0:27:13) Kev: set of cards or whatever like it wasn’t just packs even right like it was like designed as a game (0:27:19) Kev: almost right that you could play with someone um oh gosh the (0:27:21) Al: Yes. Yes. Oh, there we go. It’s the class. I think it’s the classic box set. Yes, it (0:27:25) Kev: classic yeah black something like that I can’t remember um (0:27:30) Al: was a full set. You could play a full game and it looks like it’s brand new here. It’s (0:27:32) Kev: yeah yeah yeah pokum (0:27:35) Al: £400. So quite a lot. So that’s maybe what? $500. And we’re talking and presumably the (0:27:37) Kev: yep yeah yeah yeah okay (0:27:45) Al: packs were just the packs. There wasn’t anything else with them. (0:27:50) Kev: Yeah, okay. I’m looking on Pokemon Center. It says 400 USD, I think (0:27:52) Al: Yeah. Okay. And it was like recreations of the original cards and it was like full on (0:27:55) Kev: But regardless at least it was a full dang set. They could play with you know people, right? (0:28:02) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:28:03) Al: nostalgia, but it was a full set. You could sit down with just this box and play an entire (0:28:09) Kev: Yeah, you could play different games and stuff right at least it’s that right this was literally (0:28:15) Kev: MT the MTG 3 was literally 15 packs. That’s all it was (0:28:19) Al: That’s wild, so we’re talking more than twice the price of this, (0:28:24) Al: and it doesn’t include any of the extra stuff. It’s just 50. (0:28:24) Kev: Yep (0:28:26) Kev: Nope not even I mean, I mean maybe you could make a deck it wouldn’t work probably but you know like (0:28:33) Kev: You can’t you can’t play you can’t open this and play again with friends. I don’t think unless you’re just making up (0:28:34) Al: And this box is insanely expensive, this Pokémon one. (0:28:41) Kev: Yeah, yeah it is (0:28:42) Al: You know, for what it is, of course it’s sold out, because everything Pokémon sells out. (0:28:46) Al: But yeah, wow, that’s mad. (0:28:48) Kev: Yeah, I know yeah, that’s yep, that’s wild um oh wow actually I’m looking online you can buy (0:28:56) Kev: There’s one here on TZG player for like 250 is that right huh anyways, but still yeah (0:29:02) Al: Still, still too much money. (0:29:04) Kev: Yeah, no, that’s a lot. Don’t get me wrong, but I just (0:29:07) Al: And that’s a quarter of the price of 15 packs of this magic one. Mad. That’s, that is wild. (0:29:09) Kev: Yeah (0:29:12) Kev: Magic 30th (0:29:14) Kev: Good times (0:29:15) Al: All right. Are we done with the anti-capitalist rants? Capitalism is bad. We hate it. (0:29:16) Kev: so yeah (0:29:17) Kev: So (0:29:20) Kev: We’re done (0:29:22) Al: Don’t, don’t abuse supplying to man to rip people off just because you can. (0:29:24) Kev: Hasbro is bad (0:29:28) Kev: I will say this (0:29:30) Kev: So about Magic 30th (0:29:34) Kev: They were going to have a limited run or whatever (0:29:38) Kev: Oh, there’s going to be X number of boxes produced or whatever (0:29:42) Kev: And so, you know, it was a big deal (0:29:44) Kev: Okay, we’re launching the sale on this time on the website, yada yada (0:29:48) Kev: We got down the sale, I think, after like an hour (0:29:52) Kev: There was no explicit reason given (0:29:54) Kev: But most people assume they didn’t sell a thing (0:29:58) Kev: That’s what I’m thinking (0:30:00) Kev: Or what most people think (0:30:02) Al: That’s crazy. (0:30:02) Kev: Anyways, there you go (0:30:03) Al: It’s a thousand it’s a thousand pounds as well. (0:30:04) Kev: Your fun anecdote in Magic history (0:30:06) Al: I’m looking at it on on the UK site, it’s a thousand pounds. (0:30:06) Kev: Yup, yup (0:30:10) Kev: Oh, goodness (0:30:11) Al: Each display worthy box includes 15 card for 15 card booster packs. (0:30:16) Al: Oh, wait, it’s not 15 packs, it’s four packs. (0:30:18) Kev: Oh, I misread that, it’s four p- (0:30:22) Kev: Oh, yeah (0:30:23) Al: It’s 60, it’s 60 cards. (0:30:24) Kev: 60 cards, oh my gosh (0:30:26) Kev: Oh, that’s incredible (0:30:29) Al: That is so stupid. (0:30:30) Kev: Tell me about your week out (0:30:32) Al: Uh, but I’ve been playing Mario Kart, that’s that’s all I’ve been playing. (0:30:38) Kev: Man (0:30:40) Kev: So you talked about it, I talked about it (0:30:44) Kev: I don’t know if we stressed how good Knockout Tour is (0:30:46) Kev: That’s a good mode. (0:30:47) Al: Yeah, so I’ve been, when we last talked about it, I had not played the knockout tour by that point. (0:30:54) Al: I was going through the Grumprees, three-starring them. I finished the Grumprees, they’re all (0:30:59) Al: three-starred, and I am halfway through the knockout tours, three-starring them. Yeah, (0:31:04) Al: I really like them. I will say, it is a bit frustrating when you go through, because it’s (0:31:10) Al: eight gates, you have to go through with the last one being, that’s your final position unless you (0:31:15) Al: you get an octave before. (0:31:17) Al: And so to get three star in a knockout tour, you have to come first in every single gate, (0:31:24) Al: which is a lot of work. (0:31:27) Al: And I’ve been a couple of times where I’ve gone, yeah, there’s a couple of times where (0:31:31) Al: I have gone, like, it takes a while to get through the first gate, but after you got (0:31:35) Al: the first gate, you can quite often get a lot of gates, right? (0:31:38) Kev: Yeah (0:31:38) Al: There’s one knockout tour that I’m struggling on just now where I sometimes get knocked (0:31:42) Al: out of the third gate, which is very frustrating, but most of them, it’s like, if you get past (0:31:47) Al: that first gate, unless you mock up, you probably can do it reasonably easy, but getting past (0:31:52) Al: that first gate can be difficult. (0:31:55) Al: There’s been multiple times where I’ve gotten first on the first seven gates, and then coming (0:32:00) Al: forth. (0:32:01) Al: And it is so frustrating because like in a grand prix, if you could, I know, but in like (0:32:02) Kev: I mean that’s Mario Kart. Winning is losing. (0:32:06) Al: a grand prix, if you come, if you come first, first, first, fourth, you would get one star, (0:32:12) Al: go you’d win and get a one star. (0:32:14) Al: is if you come first, first, first, first, first, first, (0:32:17) Al: you come fourth. So it’s like, like, I understand that. That’s the point of the race. It just (0:32:24) Kev: - Yep. (0:32:24) Al: makes it really, and it like, it doesn’t really matter because I’m going to play it until I get (0:32:27) Al: three stars, right? But it’s just a little bit frustrating to be like, I was first every time (0:32:32) Al: and then I got knocked. I got hit by just too many shells and now I’m done. What I do really like is, (0:32:38) Kev: Yep (0:32:39) Al: I don’t know if there’s no rubber banding, but there definitely seems to be less rubber banding (0:32:43) Kev: Well that I mean, I think that’s kind of the (0:32:43) Al: in the knockout tour. (0:32:48) Kev: Why it works so well because you’re gonna have less people that you can’t rubber band if there’s only you know (0:32:53) Kev: Now half the contestants or whatever. All right, like instead of rubber band (0:32:55) Al: Well, it’s not, it’s not, yeah, I mean, right from the start though, like if you get out (0:32:59) Al: ahead of the pack really early, you can make a really big lead, which is important to be (0:33:06) Al: able to actually, you know, because you’re going to get hit, right? You can’t keep getting (0:33:09) Kev: Mm hmm. We’re right, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. (0:33:10) Al: in horns to not get hit by blue, blue shells, and you can’t get enough stuff. As soon as (0:33:16) Al: someone has like three red shells, you’re dead, right? You can’t protect from that unless (0:33:21) Al: you like get hit by the second one just before you go through another. (0:33:25) Al: So you’re going to get hit, and so you need that good distance to make sure that you (0:33:29) Kev: Yep. Yep. (0:33:35) Kev: Yeah. Mm hmm. (0:33:36) Al: have enough time. But on the other hand, it means that if someone gets ahead quickly, (0:33:40) Kev: Yep. (0:33:41) Al: it’s really hard to catch up with them. (0:33:43) Kev: It is. Um. (0:33:45) Al: Whereas in our Grand Prix, you can like hang back for like two laps and then just smoke everyone. (0:33:50) Kev: I think Bullet Bill or Golden Shroom. (0:33:51) Al: You can’t do that. You cannot do that in a knockout tour. (0:33:54) Kev: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. (0:33:56) Al: But it’s fun. I’m enjoying it. I’m definitely enjoying it. (0:33:58) Kev: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. (0:34:00) Al: It definitely feels like what they wanted to do with the Grand Prix, but they didn’t. (0:34:03) Kev: Mm hmm. Yeah. (0:34:03) Al: And so I’m more frustrated now that the Grand Prix have these weird in-between bits. (0:34:09) Kev: That’s the thing. They’re not even in between bits. They’re just part of the race. (0:34:13) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:34:13) Kev: Like, that’s the weird part, right? Like, they told us they’re in between, but it’s not. (0:34:17) Kev: Um, that’s the weird part. (0:34:18) Al: It just means that the first lap on your next one is on the previous course. (0:34:25) Al: And then the second lap is like half the previous course and half the new course. (0:34:29) Al: And then you get one lap on the course. It’s just such a weird setup. (0:34:32) Kev: Yeah, and it’s it’s not there’s nothing inherently wrong with it especially since they designed this whole island it makes sense right but it’s still boggles my mind that they didn’t include the classic grand prive you know three laps around a track. (0:34:46) Al: Yeah, that’s the thing. That’s the thing. Anyway, but whatever. I’m still really loving the game. (0:34:48) Kev: Um, yeah. (0:34:50) Kev: Yeah. (0:34:53) Al: It is good fun. I like a lot of the changes they made. It feels, well, that’s the thing. (0:34:54) Kev: Yeah, it’s good it’s it’s Mario Kart shocker. (0:34:58) Al: It feels good because I don’t, there’s not a huge number of kart racers that feel good to race for (0:35:02) Al: me. And that’s a really important thing about Mario Kart. And they’ve, they’ve, they’ve, they (0:35:03) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:35:06) Kev: Yep, that is true (0:35:09) Al: hit it out of the park with that. Like all the changes they made make it feel smoother and feel (0:35:14) Al: nicer, like, you know, what I was talking to you about, like, when (0:35:16) Kev: Yeah (0:35:16) Al: you get hit by cars and stuff like that, it just all feels more fun. (0:35:18) Kev: Yeah (0:35:19) Kev: You’re right (0:35:21) Kev: You’re right. Yeah, I agree. It is it like just (0:35:25) Kev: Mechanically does feel more fluid because you’re right like in the old days when you got hit that was just like a hard stop (0:35:30) Al: Yeah, spin around three times and come to a halt. (0:35:31) Kev: Here you kind of tumble forward a little (0:35:34) Kev: Yeah (0:35:36) Kev: Yeah, I agree. Um, I mean, yeah overall like I agree. It’s it’s it’s good (0:35:42) Kev: I wish we I think it just needs more (0:35:46) Kev: We don’t actually it has a battle mime in try that but we need the three lap (0:35:52) Kev: Classy Grand Prix and we need more to actually do with free range. The free range is kind of nothing right now (0:36:00) Al: Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see if they add more in the future. (0:36:00) Kev: Like you (0:36:02) Kev: Yeah (0:36:03) Al: I don’t know. (0:36:04) Al: We’ll see. (0:36:04) Al: I’m not, I’m not, I’m not like, Oh, they must do it. (0:36:05) Kev: And I (0:36:07) Al: Or it would be a bad game. (0:36:08) Al: Like if it never changes again, I don’t think it’s not worth the money, (0:36:09) Kev: Yeah, oh yeah for sure oh (0:36:12) Al: but I would also like more please. (0:36:13) Kev: Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s (0:36:16) Kev: not a bad game. I need to stress that just, there’s, there’s just potential, you can feel it, (0:36:21) Kev: but you can feel what you can do, right? Like, can you imagine a, you know, I feel like there should (0:36:27) Kev: be modes that use the free range, like, sort of like tag, basically, right? Or, or, you know, (0:36:32) Al: Mmm, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:36:34) Kev: something like that, something to chase, chase a rabbit or whatever, stuff like that, to give you (0:36:39) Kev: an excuse to run around the island, not just on the tracks. And, you know, that’s kind of what they (0:36:42) Al: Do you know what I hope they do? I really hope that they charged as much as they charged for (0:36:43) Kev: want. You tell. (0:36:48) Al: this game because they intend on not doing paid DLC but what they would do in paid DLC they’re (0:36:56) Al: adding industry updates. That would be really nice and it’s like yeah because then they get (0:36:59) Kev: that would be nice (0:37:01) Kev: I can see it going either way (0:37:03) Al: more money overall if they do that than if they charge less money and then charge the DLC because (0:37:07) Al: not everyone’s going to buy the DLC. But it (0:37:12) Al: would I think it would lead a lot of people to be less frustrated because I think if they add (0:37:17) Al: if they do a DLC and they charge for it people are gonna be like even more money you want even (0:37:18) Kev: Mm-hmm. (0:37:21) Kev: Yeah. (0:37:22) Al: more of my money and I think that would be not great and if they added more as free updates I (0:37:27) Kev: Yeah. (0:37:28) Al: think people would go oh okay uh there’ll be people who like this should have been in the beginning (0:37:30) Kev: What? (0:37:33) Al: but I think those people are stupid and that’s not how games work anymore deal with it it’s like (0:37:35) Kev: Yeah. (0:37:38) Kev: Yeah! (0:37:39) Al: it’s like the people who, it’s like the people who talk about (0:37:42) Al: er, so it’s one thing talking about Pokemon Scarlet and Violet and saying this is how the (0:37:46) Kev: Yeah, the game should have worked (0:37:46) Al: games always should have been, right? Like I’m putting that to the side. I’m not, I’m not talking (0:37:50) Al: about those, but I’ve seen people, I have heard people say this is what Breath of the Wild should (0:37:55) Al: have been with the Switch 2 update. And I’m like, no, it’s not. That is, that is an eight year old (0:37:58) Kev: what those people aren’t saying (0:38:02) Al: game. You cannot possibly believe that you think this game should have looked like this eight years (0:38:08) Al: ago. When this game came out, people adored how it (0:38:12) Al: looked amazing. The Switch, it still does. Even if you don’t have the update, it still (0:38:14) Kev: It still does shock her. (0:38:18) Al: looks amazing. It just looks even better if you have the update. It’s absolutely bizarre (0:38:22) Kev: Yeah, eggs (0:38:24) Al: that people are like, “This sort of shows.” But shut up. That is not how this works. That (0:38:28) Kev: Sheets oh (0:38:30) Al: is not how this works. (0:38:30) Kev: That’s insanity (0:38:33) Kev: Well, you know, okay on the topic on the topic of the DLC is it’s interesting because I think if they and I do think they’re (0:38:42) Kev: Gonna support the game because as you said, that’s just how (0:38:45) Kev: Games are now. Um, I think there there has to be free (0:38:52) Kev: because you know (0:38:53) Kev: He they’ve they’ve kind of put them corner themselves because in previous Mario Kart’s DLC is very or you know (0:39:00) Kev: It’s obvious what you do. You add more tricks, right? Here’s your next cup. Here’s you know, daddy out of here’s (0:39:05) Kev: Four cups buy them for ten bucks or whatever here. You can’t do that at least not had a (0:39:10) Kev: that easily right because you (0:39:13) Kev: They’re not gonna jam a new section of the island and gate it off with the DLC (0:39:14) Al: Oh, yeah, good point. (0:39:17) Al: That’s a good point. (0:39:19) Al: We’re going to need another island or the island get expanded or something like that. (0:39:19) Kev: right, so (0:39:22) Kev: Yeah, so (0:39:25) Kev: There’s I think there’s a couple I think there’s a couple things one (0:39:25) Al: Hmm. (0:39:28) Kev: I think we’re gonna see free modes like we’re talking about right like I don’t know what but they’re gonna I think they’re (0:39:31) Al: Yeah. (0:39:32) Kev: Gonna use more of the island because they have the island that would that’s obvious use more use it more, right? (0:39:37) Kev: There might be you know, maybe they will introduce three lap mode and then they can sell DLC tracks (0:39:43) Kev: Just you know your classic. Okay, here’s four tracks (0:39:44) Al: Yeah, so you know what, you’ve made me come to the conclusion. (0:39:49) Al: I think what’s going to happen is there will be those feature updates will be free (0:39:52) Kev: You (0:39:55) Al: and then new tracks will probably be paid. (0:39:55) Kev: Yeah (0:39:58) Al: I suspect that’s what’s going to happen. (0:39:58) Kev: That’s that is what I also suspect I do think yeah, yep, that’s (0:40:01) Al: That is a good point. (0:40:03) Al: Because then they can charge for like a whole other island, right? (0:40:07) Kev: Yep or just tracks if they want to do you know if they go back to three laps, but yeah or just another island yeah (0:40:09) Al: I can’t see. I can’t. I can’t see. (0:40:14) Al: I’m doing that going like the whole point is this America world also here are some (0:40:18) Al: tracks you can only do in if you if you choose them in the menu. (0:40:20) Kev: Yeah, that’s a good point. I guess (0:40:23) Al: Like that feels weird and you go into free room in free room free room and you (0:40:27) Al: choose which island you want to free room on or there’s a bridge between the two (0:40:29) Kev: Yeah (0:40:31) Al: islands or something like that. (0:40:33) Kev: Okay, the bridge might work yeah, but you raise a good point it could be a whole new island I I can see that (0:40:38) Kev: But but overall like yeah, I think we’re in agreement. There’s gonna be some sort of features modes (0:40:43) Kev: Whatever they’re gonna end those are gonna be free. Absolutely (0:40:46) Al: Also, let us free Rome on Rainbow Road, please, and thank you. (0:40:49) Kev: That it (0:40:51) Kev: I (0:40:52) Al: Maybe Rainbow Road is the bridge. (0:40:55) Kev: Hear people talk about that because of course, but there’s a part where you’re literally crashing there (0:40:58) Al: Yeah, I know. (0:41:03) Kev: How you gonna free-rope that (0:41:05) Al: But, I mean, if you fall off, you go back. (0:41:09) Kev: You just okay, all right (0:41:09) Al: You have to go back to the start of it. (0:41:10) Al: There you go. (0:41:12) Al: I can see why it would be annoying, and I know why they haven’t done it, but that doesn’t (0:41:15) Kev: Yeah, okay (0:41:15) Al: mean I don’t want to do it. (0:41:18) Kev: You know (0:41:20) Kev: On the rainbow road like on this in this one (0:41:23) Kev: I there’s points where I think it’s the absolute best rainbow road they’ve ever done and there’s points where it’s the worst one (0:41:32) Kev: Like I think the lot of it is great. It’s fantastic. It’s it’s a it’s a real spectacle this one (0:41:38) Kev: But then there’s points where you’re not actually on the rainbow road. There’s bits where you dip on water and other weird stuff (0:41:45) Kev: I don’t like that, but but that just me (0:41:48) Al: I haven’t done it enough to have a full opinion because I actually got (0:41:53) Al: that Grand Prix I got in on my second try. I got three stars. So I was like, “Oh, oh well.” (0:41:58) Kev: No dang, look at you hotshot. (0:42:01) Al: So it’s the only one. Other ones took me many, many, many more tries. But yeah, (0:42:05) Al: that one I was like, “Oh my word, I just got it in the second try. That’s wild.” (0:42:09) Kev: Nice. (0:42:10) Al: Because I actually, the first time I did it, I got 1-1-4-1. And so I was like, “Oh no, (0:42:15) Kev: Oh, dang. (0:42:17) Al: If I get– I think I can– (0:42:18) Al: do this, and then I managed to get it the second time. (0:42:20) Al: It was very satisfying, but– (0:42:21) Al: So I need to go back and do it some more. (0:42:23) Al: I don’t think I’ll be getting a second time in the– (0:42:26) Al: is there a knockout tour with Rainbow Road? (0:42:28) Kev: I don’t remember off the I don’t think there is now I’m guessing there isn’t (0:42:32) Al: Yeah, OK. (0:42:34) Al: So I’ll need to go back and try it, just– (0:42:37) Al: either with the Grand Prix or just on its own. (0:42:38) Kev: Yeah, I guess nothing else from your week you want to talk about (0:42:39) Al: All right, should we talk about some “Cottagecore” games? (0:42:43) Al: 40 minutes in. (0:42:45) Al: We’ve got some news. (0:42:47) Al: So first of all, Lens Island. (0:42:48) Al: 1.0 is now out, I believe, I think you talked about it with Cody in the last episode, so we (0:42:52) Kev: We did (0:42:53) Al: don’t need to go over much, but it’s now out! Huzzah! They also di

This week Diana's guest Tim Thomas shares a compelling personal story about surviving a shark attack while spearfishing, and how trust, faith, and human connection played crucial roles in his survival. Thomas discusses the importance of breath work in managing trauma, enhancing sleep quality, and promoting overall well-being. He offers practical exercises and insights into activating the parasympathetic nervous system to foster calm and healing. Thomas also introduces his 'Breathwork in Bed' app designed to help users achieve better sleep and improve their daily lives. The episode concludes with Diana and Tim emphasizing the significance of addressing and healing generational trauma for oneself and future generations. 02:23 Shark Attack Story 03:05 The Power of Trust and Faith 05:46 Breath Work and Healing from Trauma 15:20 Practical Breath Work Exercise 21:41 The Importance of Quality Sleep 27:24 Conclusion and Contact Information  https://breathworkinbed.com.au/   Free for the first 20 clicks! This is my Breathwork in Bed audio book, narrated by myself; https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V98IW0DdoH_-k4xZGRpokolXMLXhwEP4/view?usp=drivesdk   This is the links to the Breathwork in Bed app. The app will guide you to sleep with peace and out of bed with power. Links are for Apple/Smart phones & Google/Androids Apple link: https://apps.apple.com/app/breathwork-in-bed-app/id6575362285   Google Link: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.breathworkinbed.bibsleepapp20&hl=en   www.breathworkinbed.com.au https://www.instagram.com/breathworkinbed/   https://www.facebook.com/breathworkinbed   This is the tutorial for the breath of PEACE and POSSIBILITY https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QsuCHJ7UcHrwBIVQp9FTrVvgJGbMjRSw/view?usp=sharing   Website: https://dswministries.org Email: diana@dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Tim Thomas Part 2 [00:00:00] Last time on the wounds of the Faithful podcast. Tim Thomas 2: I know there's a shark story somewhere. How does the shark come into play with, is that, just something you survived or is that. Oh, look, that was a fun NBE near death experience where, um, okay. Yeah. Very relevant. It was the classic one where you have your life flashing before your eyes. Right. Um, and the important part about isn't so much the shark attack in the, in the context of a, a, let's say Christian faith afterwards, because I, I love the ocean, I love spearfishing. And there's always sharks where there's fish when we're chasing fish. There's, it's always a good sign when there's sharks around because that tells you you're in the right area. And it's a fun story. Like this thing had my leg, and I don't believe it when people say, oh, I punched it and then it went away. I'm stabbing this thing in the eye and it's not letting go. And I'm about to drown, right? As a fighter, I've taken a lot of hits, but never, ever, ever has my body [00:01:00] felt like a ragdoll being shaken by a dog. Mm-hmm. Um, so I literally felt that my body going, oh yeah, yeah. Like just so rapidly shook. I'm like, whoa. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, Diana. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Tim Thomas 2: Hey folks, thanks for coming back to the podcast. We're back listening to part two of my conversation with Tim Thomas. So far it's been really exciting, hasn't it? He is definitely a [00:02:00] storyteller. We got more of that for you today. So I'm not going to review, his bio. You can read that in the show notes. And of course, as always, I tell you to go back and listen to part one if you have not done so already. But, so hold onto your seats and here's part two of my conversation with Tim Thomas. Enjoy. I had my mate Jimmy. Now Jimmy was a fellow commando, and where we train is a place called the Kill House, where we get very used to shooting close to each other. And he was coming down and he had this look in his eye saying, I got this and I got you. And it was so strange, even though I'm about to drown, like it wasn't a big shark, it was maybe two meters. But you, like I said, the power it had was surprising. And, and I'm getting tangled up in my float line and Jimmy's coming down and I look in his eyes. And like I said, as much as I was about to die, the [00:03:00] trust that went through my system had me completely relax and be at peace. And it was at that moment I realized, you know, when times get tough, as humans, we think, oh, I need more stuff to feel secure. We don't need more stuff, we need more trust. Mm-hmm. And it's in that trust that we can find our rest. My mother always says, we don't find, rest until we rest in the Lord. You know, it's pretty hard to find trust in another human being, but you can find it, you know, in the above. And on this occasion, I got a taste of that through another human. So I was able to turn my body, give him a shot, and his spear from his spear gun went straight through the shark that was hanging onto my leg. And look, long story short. I survived and, lived to tell the story. But afterwards, and the point I need to sort of make here is, afterwards someone said, when you saw your life flashing before your eyes, do you think that was a [00:04:00] spiritual experience? And I'm like, no. And here's why. Really? Yeah. No, it wasn't. It was cool. It was new. I'd never seen it before, but it was just my life through my eyes. Okay. I didn't get any other perspective. It was just my life seen through my own eyes. If that was a spiritual experience, I would be seeing, the sequence of events of my life and how that one action impacted others. I've got the faith to know that, when this body of mine goes back into the earth. God will say, here's your life as you saw it. Now here's your life as I saw it. But faith to me is not so much whether God exists 'cause he simply does or doesn't. Faith to me is knowing that my everyday life is creating powerful and positive impacts outside of my awareness. Well, I'm glad that you had a friend that was there for you to spearhead that, that shark. Now, for me, [00:05:00] that would've been a, you know, see a Jesus moment. If, if I hadn't already been a Christian, I would've definitely gotten on board with that shark hanging onto my leg and shaking me like a ragdoll, as you eloquently, uh, displayed. So I'm like, well, I'm about to drown anyway. I'm as well, you know, forego a finger. So I put my finger inside the corner of this shark's mouth, and I'm feeling around inside its mouth of the on switch. I flick it on and then boom, that's when it, lets go. And before that I'd stabbed this thing in the eye. Jimmy had speared this thing, let's go when I turn this shark shoot on, and then I swim to the surface and take the sweetest breath of air I've ever had. Right? Oh, that was probably a million dollar breath right there. I wanted to give you, enough time to talk about your breath work that, you're so passionate about. How does it work and how can it help, those of us that have gone through some really severe trauma, [00:06:00] like you've talked about shark attacks, PTSD, war, illness, losing your loved ones. How does that work behind the scenes? Sure. So think about all the events that create stress like an accelerator on your car. Okay, people hit the gas, all right? And often, you burn out or you crash into something. Doing that breath allows you to activate what's called your parasympathetic nervous system or your break. And that's quite a strange concept for people who are so used to, accelerating to hit the brake and to slow down. Um, allows your system. Once the revs drop down to a certain point, that's when the healing can take place. So when I was getting guys outta fatigue and I improved their sleep quality, everything in their life improved. So think of everything you've got in your life, everything like work, [00:07:00] play, relationships, the quality of all those things is relative to the quality of your sleep. If your sleep is disturbed, that disturbs everything in the special forces. We used to actively target our enemy's sleep. 'cause we knew if we took it out for three nights, it would mess 'em up better than a bullet. So I just noticed that improving sleep allowed the body to heal. And the best way I know how to do it, pharmaceutical free is the deep activation of the parasympathetic nervous system and done right, it goes beyond words. It goes beyond thought. Because depending on your view of human evolution, before we were thinking, before we putting paintings on rock walls, we were breathing before he was speaking, we were breathing. And one thing the psychologists haven't figured out yet is when people go through trauma, the trauma goes down deeper than the words can reach. And so breath is one of those things that can get into the [00:08:00] deepest parts of us. Slow down and give us peace. And it's funny that for me, poor sleep is the perfect environment for any negative stuff in your head to grow more of. So I tend to lean into the idea that poor quality sleep is the thing that creates a lot of mental problems. And they both feed each other. The more problems you've got in your head, the worse sleep you get. The worse sleep you get, the more problems in your head grow. So to arrest the physical side of things, breath work is a great way, and I'm not just gonna talk about this. I'm gonna show you an activity, to actually have that experience. And I've got a whole company based around that. Breath is something that we do consciously as well as unconsciously. I need to say this because. Think of your mind like a garden, whatever your water grows, okay? And those, uh, for years I was watering the weeds of stress. Let's say you want [00:09:00] to, do some exercise. There's a part of you going, not right now. I don't wanna do this. There's that part of you trying to talk you out of exercise. That's the disempowered parts of your head, knowing that if you exercise and you become powerful, they're gone. They're no longer in there. So they scream the loudest when they're about to die. So if you amplify that by about a thousand and someone's got some trauma in their head that they've been feeding for years, that's what you're up against. When, you often do anything new that's positive. 'cause this stuff in your head goes, no, I don't wanna be kicked out. So the thing I need to tell people is that even though I was a breath work coach. And I knew breath work would make me feel better when I'd gotten divorced. I'd lost my house, my home, my money, regular access to kids, and I'm sleeping in the lounge room of my parents' place at 3:00 AM These stress weeds, were loving it. They're like, this is awesome. We're getting all the resources. And I knew that breathing would bring me peace, but it's like I could [00:10:00] not do it. I was all locked up with the stress weeds running the show. And I got to the point early in the morning that I was either gonna do self-harm, alcohol, pills, whatever it was. and yet I, part of me knew that breathing would help. So what I did in that completely desperate state, was I looked at my left thumb and I said, Tim, you can take one breath. Just take one breath. And I drove into my chest and went, oh my gosh. And it was like taking that first breath after coming up from the shark attack. And then I'm like, okay, that works. And I stuck two fingers into my chest, take two breaths, Tim, take two breaths. And I took two breaths. Okay, 3, 3, 3, get to three and then five, get to five, get to 10. You know, and I'm just driving these fingers in one at a time, one at a time. And then somewhere between breath 15 and breath 25, these stress weeds got kicked out. And the rest of my brain was, thank goodness you kicked those guys out. Keep doing this. This is working. But up until the point they got kicked out, there was so much resistance because these guys were running the [00:11:00] show. So yes, breath work works, but just understand that when you need it most, there will be opposition. And right now I'm just blah blah blahing, right? But when this actually happens, you'll be like, oh, this is what the guy was talking about. And that's why, with the Breathwork in Bed app, it's guided. So you can go, well look, I don't believe this will work, but I'm just gonna do that, and then this, and then all of a sudden, oh my gosh, this actually works. You know what I mean? It does work. We were talking before the show that, I have a good psychiatrist that I've been seeing and, I had some triggers to my trauma and was there to see her and, she introduced me to breath work. And you probably know the beginner exercise. You're breathing in for four and you're holding it for four and Yep. Get all box breathing four, and then you, you start all over again. And I was kind of skeptical. I'm like, just gimme some Xanax, and be done with it. And she said, no, this is faster. And, we started doing that in the appointment and she [00:12:00] had me hooked up to the her little monitor system and she showed me how my nervous system calmed down in just a few minutes of me doing those. Those breath sessions. And so she gave me, homework to do. And, yeah, the demons come out at three o'clock in the morning, brother. And that's when I have to remember, okay, you gotta remember your breath work here. And then I can go back to sleep. So I'm already, excited about what you're doing. Well, you've experienced yourself, it's pretty lonely at 3:00 AM. Yeah. And so, you know, not many people like yourself have that discipline to go into their breath, but to have a button you can press, I wanted to be there for those people at 2:00 AM when I needed it. I think God put me in that situation so I could have empathy and then create a tool for people in those places. Um, 'cause I can't do what you do, Diana, and I can't do what all the listeners do, but if I can improve the quality of your sleep, then you're gonna do what you do even better. And I think if you are a [00:13:00] responsible person, it's one thing to generate yourself and create an abundance in yourself. But if you believe that, you know, at some point God's gonna ask you, what did you do for those others around you? and what nobody knew back when I was doing all these incredible things in the veteran space, 40 saving 40 veteran lives from suicide is every six or seven weeks. I really find that the daily practice of connecting to yourself, your God, first, creating that abundance and out of your overflow, you can be generous with others. Yes. You have to, put on your oxygen mask first before you help others next to you. That whole airplane scenario we always hear about. But it's true. You can't fill somebody else's cup of your cup isn't full. You know, you're running on empty. That's not gonna help anybody. And the thing that really gave me quite a, an uppercut Diana, was the [00:14:00] realization that my trauma, my unhealed wounds, I don't have the privilege of taking them to the grave with me. They don't stop when I die. I pay them forward to my kids. I pay them forward to everyone who meets me. For me it was anger. Now, I've never met my great, great grandfather, but I'm pretty sure he was an angry dude. I had to say, look, anger ran in my family until it ran into me. You know, I had to be the one to create healing for the generations before and the generations afterwards. So having that external focus where if I don't deal with it myself, my kids are gonna have to deal with it. Everyone else has to deal with it. It gets paid forward. Great. And I thank you for saying that because you know, it ends here with me. The generational trauma, it ends now. And so many people miss that. You can't sit here and wallow in your trauma, in your, past abuse because your kids and the people around you are gonna suffer too if you don't deal with it. Oh, I like that. Instead of deal with it, heal with it! So I'm really excited to, get an [00:15:00] example Yes. Of this breath work. I'm, let's get a lived experience, almost like, almost like taste, touch, feel. So the only caveat I have to this, Diana, is people listening to this, I'd love you to participate as fully as possible, but you do need to be seated, supported, or lying down. You can't be driving, you can't be cutting up carrots. Because this is gonna be you connecting fully to your breath, and breathing is easy, but You've been breathing a certain way your whole life, right? And so to do it differently takes a a bit of focus and concentration. So I'm gonna do everything within my power to, have you take these full breaths, and all allow yourself to experience the fullness of it, okay? All allow yourself to go somewhere you haven't possibly gone before. Allow yourself to have a bit of courage right now,​because Most people, they shallow breathe. If you saw someone in public and they're going, sh, sh, sh, sh, you know, they're about to [00:16:00] freak out, right? And without knowing it, most of us are shallow breathing is, or albeit slower, but we're still sending a signal to our brains that we're in fight or flight. We can't rest and digest. So, to breathe fully is to live fully, to feel fully. All right, so this is really simple. I show this to high school students, to corporates, and, and like I said, I'm gonna do everything I can for people to get this, but they do need to be seated, not driving, not cutting up carrots, listening to my voice. So to start with Diana, it's gonna be really easy. Just breathe in and breathe out. All right. That was easy, right? So now we're gonna build on that. We're gonna breathe in, and then we're gonna breathe in again and again, and again and again. All right, let's give that a try. Breathe in again and again, and again and again, and just let that go. Now, did you notice, Diana, a little bit of extra space opening up in your, in your upper chest? [00:17:00] Absolutely. Okay. I didn't think that was there. So what, and it's amazing. We all own bodies, but we don't know what it can do for us. Like our bodies are amazing. I'm gonna show you another amazing fact about your body that you never knew. So in your thumb and two fingers, you've got a turbo button, okay? Thumb and two fingers. And we're gonna pinch our fingers together as hard as possible in just a minute. All right, so that inhale you did where you breathed in, and then you breathed in again and again and again. We'll call that your secondary inhale. All right? We're gonna call that your secondary inhale. So what's gonna happen in a second is you're gonna breathe in through your primary inhale. When it gets to your secondary inhale, I want you to pinch your thumb into your two fingers as hard as you can, and notice how that boosts your secondary inhale. So everybody listening, just blow all [00:18:00] your air out, out, out, out, out, out. Now breathe in. And then when you're ready, hit the turbo buttons really hard and suck it into that upper chest. And then just let that out. Now, Diana, did you notice when you hit those buttons, you can breathe a little bit more in? Yes. That's, that's crazy. Who knew, right? Our bodies are amazing. We are wonderfully made. Do that a couple of times. so can you feel the connection between your fingers and your upper third? Who knew? Right now, we're gonna juice that up even more. All right. So think of your, your chin and your power buttons, and there's a triangle there, right? And we are gonna, we are gonna open that triangle. We're gonna hit our power buttons as we raise our [00:19:00] chin to the sur, to the roof. So our, our chin is gonna go up, our chest is gonna go up. It's like we are leaning back. So I'll give you a little demonstration. We're gonna breathe out, then breathe in. And when it comes to the secondary inhale, we're gonna raise our chin, push our power buttons, and hold it there. And then just feel what it is to get it all up in that space. Are you ready? Yep. So breathing, breathing out, breathe it out, out, out, out, out. Breathing in, hit your power buttons, raise your chin, raise your chest. Look at the ceiling. Look at the ceiling. Raise your chin higher. Up, up, up. Open, open, open. And then just let it out. Almost like an upward dog. Pretty much. It was like a, seated upward dog. Yep. That was great. And, and we're about halfway through. So the thing about [00:20:00] this secondary inhale. I call this the breath of possibility. Okay? When I've got crap in my head, I don't want there, I notice my structure hunches over, okay? And things become impossible because I'm all hunched over, I'm pinching off my own air supply. So what this does, when we breathe forcefully into this upper third, I make the impossible possible. So this is your breath of possibility. So what I want you to do is try and double the speed of inhalation, but just do it through your nose. Really try and snort it. Flare your nostrils, snort it through your nose. One thing my fighting coach taught me was that doing a nice snort through your nose, it goes through your sinuses straight into your brain. So the quickest way to oxygenate your brain is snorting through the sinuses. I dunno the science behind it, but it seemed to work in a fight. All right, so, so what we're gonna do is like double the speed of our inhale by really, raising that chin fast, pinching those [00:21:00] ones and, and, and opening up this space with a, with a bit of aggression. Are you ready? Ready, everyone. Let's exhale. Exhale, exhale, exhale. Breathe in. Hit your turbo buttons and snort, snort snotor. Look at the roof. Look at the roof. Open the chest. Open the chest. Open your chest like a flower. Now hold it there. Wriggle your shoulders. Open up that space by wriggle your shoulders. Wriggle your shoulders. Opening up. Feels really good to open it up and let it out with a loud sigh. Ah, great. All right. How you feeling? I'm feeling good. Okay, so we're halfway through. Breath of possibility is up here. Breath of peace is down low in your belly. So what we're going to do right now. We're gonna do that big inhale. Okay. Filling that breath of possibility, that [00:22:00] top third, we're gonna hold our breath. We're gonna let that air go from our upper chest, middle chest, lower, and we're gonna push it down low. Our hands are gonna be on our stomach, and we're gonna push it down as low as it can go. We're gonna squeeze it down there and we're gonna let it out With a hissing noise. A, it's like the air wants to come out, but your mouth is stopping it a bit like you've got that pressure cooker on the stove and there's that, that, that steam coming out. That's what it's gonna be like and I'll coach you through it, but the longer you can make that sound for the better it's gonna be. Now this is something new. So we're gonna do this three times. And the third time you do this, you'll probably be able to relax and move a whole lot more freely. There's no wrong way to do this, but just this is doing something new, and I wanna acknowledge you. You're doing really well. Normally, when I'm running a workshop, it takes about an hour to get people to this stage. So, you're doing really well. So listening to my voice, we're gonna blow all our [00:23:00] air out, out, out, out, out, out. Breathing in power buttons, raise your chin, raise your chest, open your chest like a flower in, in, in, in, in. Then hold it. And wriggle. Wriggle your shoulders. Wriggle your shoulders. Now let your head relax forward. Let your head relax forward. Let your shoulders relax forward. Put your hands on your belly. And squeeze your belly. Let your head sort of hang forward like it's down towards your knees. And then let out a as long as possible. And as you let it out, let all the tension fall outta your body. Tension out of your shoulders, out of your arms, out of your face. Feel like you're a deflating toy. Air's just falling out of you. And so is the tension. Let it all just fall out with your breath [00:24:00] out now. Very good. And this last one is gonna be the best one ever with your turbo buttons ready? Blow it all the way out. Breathing in. Open up that chest, raise that chin. Feel that flower in your chest opening up. Let the sunshine in. Let the sunshine in. Hold it, wriggle it around. R it around. And holding your breath, just collapse your head forward. Collapse your head forward. Let your head just hang loose. Hands on your belly. Hands on your belly. Feel that balloon of air down below. Squeeze it and let it out with a for as long as possible. And as that air leaves your body, let all the tension just deflate out of your body. Your whole body is deflating and resting and coming to peace. All the tensions from your neck, your shoulders, [00:25:00] your spine, your face, it's all just leaving with your exhale. And all I'm gonna invite you to do is just keep your eyes closed for a second, and sit back in your chair. Sit back in your chair, and let that chair support your weight. Feel how your muscles are feeling supported by that chair. Feel how your relaxation is allowing you to feel held and supported. That chair was built to support you. It will support you. So often in our tension, we don't allow ourselves to feel supported and held. It's like our own tension is, is a backwards way of having us feel held and supported. But it doesn't work like that. It's only when we give up our tension and give up our stress that we can feel supported, feel held, [00:26:00] and I invite you just to breathe deeply into that sensation of feeling supported, feeling held. If there's any muscles in your body that need extra relaxation, I invite you to put your breath directly into them like you are breathing into those shoulders or neck or face. Notice how you can use your breath to target muscle groups and target different parts of your body. It's moments like this. We realize that everything we need, everything we have been looking for is right here underneath our own skin. I. Access through our breath. What a divine gift. Shake your body out and well done. You've just accessed [00:27:00] your breath. A deep connection with your body. And how do you feel? Yeah, I feel like going for a run. Uh, that's the first time I've ever done that on a podcast, so this was great. That was more than I was, uh, expecting you to give us tonight. That was excellent. So tell us how the folks can get in touch with you. I know you have your app. Mm-hmm. Yep. So anyone with a phone can, can put in three words to their app store, breath work in bed. I'm not a tech person, so I made it tech easy. It'll ask you when you wanna sleep, when you wanna wake up, and then notifications will fall out at that time. You just hit the button and away you go. You'll be guided to sleep with peace out of bed with power. There's a bunch of bonus features on there that I'll let you discover for yourself. If you wanna reach out for me personally, you can go through the website, [00:28:00] breathworkinbed.com au. Um, and you know, I, I just want my desire is that people see how wondrously they're made and not just see it, but taste, touch, feel it. So if you did that activity, you'd be feeling what it is to go, wow, this is awesome. I thought I'd have to take a pill or some external substance right? To access that kind of power. The resources is there and there's an accumulation effect. The better you sleep, the better you get outta bed. the better old day you have then, there's a lot in there. And, the app is specifically made to give people, you know, the good stuff when they need it. Yes, I've got socials, and you can subscribe obviously, but there's enough social media in the world, in my opinion, what people need more than anything else is quality sleep. Um, because if you go off the idea that sleep is the soil from which everything grows. I believe everyone's [00:29:00] got seeds of greatness, seeds of uniqueness inside of them, and they're just laying dormant for the right conditions. So when you improve your sleep, that's good. But what makes me excited is the flourishing of people's uniqueness, greatness, the gifts that they have that are just sitting dormant, that'll never grow while you're in fatigue. Right, exactly. Well, this will, be in the show notes. How much is the app? Is there a cost for, uh, the first 28 days is free. It, it costs less than a cup of coffee for a month, to subscribe. But yeah, you do get the first 28 d free. Yeah. Cheaper than pharmaceutical drugs too. Well, I thank you so much for what you do for saving lives and. Even though you're not in our military, thank you for your service. You're keeping people safe and doing the job that some people are not willing to do to go running into fire or bullets or danger. And so thank you so much for being on the show and sharing with us those [00:30:00] exercises at the end. That was priceless. Two things I'll do for your viewers. I'll put in a link, the first p first 20 people that click it will get a free copy of my audio book. Uh, but I'll also put a link in there for that breath of peace and possibility should they want to tap into that again at any point. Excellent. I'll put that in the, show notes as well. God bless you, Tim. Thanks so much for having me on Diana. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

Prior to his acquisition of a Commercial Landscaping Company in 2022, Chris had a successful career in Finance, spending the past twelve years in consulting, mergers & acquisitions (buy and sell side transactions in the petrochemical space). He co-founded Salem Oak Vineyards in 2013, produced several award-winning wines, and helped grow the business to $750,000 in sales. He continues to serve as a strategic partner to the winery. Chris has also built a successful real estate portfolio over the past ten years transacting on $2.5 MM in single family real estate and raw land development. After overcoming initial challenges post-acquisition, Chris continues to focus on growth both organically and through bolt-on acquisitions in commercial landscaping and tree removal. When he's not chasing deals, he's spending quality time with his growing family.  

Hey HBs! We're back with part 2 of Muriel's Wedding! Content Warnings: Cancer diagnosis and treatment, suicide of a parent. Check out Jaime's spicy contemporary books! https://jaimepbradley.com/the-books/ and follow her on Tiktok and Instagram! Want more of us? Check out our PATREON! This Friday Patrons and Apple Podcast subscribers are getting a squeepisode on the last book in The Games We Play in Granville series, SEVEN MINUTES IN KEVIN by DJ Jamison! Thank you for keeping Mel sane, fluffy MM romance authors! Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast (at) gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms Tiktok @heaving_bosoms  Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more.

iera returns with the Green Park Dentistry team, Chief Operations Manager Jeff and Dr. Andrew Sugg, to discuss tips for those who want to evolve their leadership. Jeff and Dr. Sugg share their own journey, which included immersing themselves in a new community. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera, and this is part two of Dr. Andrew and Jeff talking about, they already went through their expansion, what they did, and now I really wanted to get into the nitty gritty of what makes Andrew so incredible as a doctor and what makes Jeff an incredible leader in his practice to get the growth and the success that they've been able to have. And I'm so excited for you to experience it. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team podcast.   Kiera Dent (00:24) Andrew, can you walk us through, what do you feel are some of the things you do so superior? Like, I want you to brag a little bit. This is a moment where Kiera Dent is so freaking proud of you. Tiff is proud of you. Our company is proud of you. ⁓   because I think other people want to know how to do this. So I almost want to peel back the curtain just a little bit on what are some of the things you do really well in assembly? Like I said, Jeff, chime in too. Then we're going to reverse. We're going to talk about Jeff and Andrew, you can chime in on him. So like both of you can just schmooze each other tonight as well. You guys are going to have an amazing night post podcast. You're welcome. All right. But truly, Andrew, what are some of the things you feel set in part?   Jeff & Andrew (00:52) Yeah, thank you.   Well,   that leads into a great, was going to say, like, I feel really lucky to have Jeff, obviously. And I know not everybody has a Jeff or can trust someone as much as I trust Jeff. But I think obviously it can be very hard on our marriage. So that's one side note. And I know like a lot of couples that that happens. But I think I have to always. Right? know. Two years ago, I was worried. And in gay years, that's like 40 years.   Kiera Dent (01:19) I'm so proud of you. 10 years in and you still, I think, love each other, which is amazing. I think   everybody is. You're like, okay. But it's one of those things also though, I will say, like throwing it out to couples, when couples go through what you have gone through and you're able to like be through the thick and the thin of it, I will also give advice. Like when I watched people go through dental school, and Andrew, I'm sure you saw this, I was so angry at so many of our like friends that went through.   Jeff & Andrew (01:33) you   Kiera Dent (01:46) Like they went through the residencies, they got to the end and I'm like, you freaking made it. And that's when they get divorced. And I'm like, Oh, if you're to get divorced, get divorced during the hard times, but like you have made it. You've made it. And now it's like, it's a matter of like, we bonded together, we grew together. And I think like making sure that stays a priority in your marriage. You guys remember I was a marriage and finally therapist prior to this. Like that was my thing. I like, Oh, don't give up on what you like. You went through the freaking hardest years together. Now it's like, enjoy this amazing life we built together.   Jeff & Andrew (01:50) Yeah.   Right, yeah. All right.   Yeah.   Yeah   Kiera Dent (02:16) and don't lose sight of how grateful we are for one another. anyway, like off my tangent, keep going.   Jeff & Andrew (02:20) No, that's   that one. So I guess that's that's part like that's kind of part of my after always remind myself I need to be very appreciative for everyone around me. So that's probably number one. And I guess that goes into like, you need to kind of check your ego, right? Like as much as everybody wants it to be all about the dentist and all about me. I'm really just the guy that does the dentistry and I enjoy kind of being like that side note, like I'd rather people come talk to him. Right. So I think like the more you can step back and see yourself as that clinician is very beneficial. And then   kind of let, again, the people around you lead and be those positive lights that they can be, that's like how you're gonna grow, right? And then I think that goes along with an associate where, ⁓ again, kind of being humble, like, yes, I know a lot, but I don't know everything. And I learned stuff as much from the associates or how they do things differently as much as they may learn from me. And I think when you come to a situation more with ⁓ curiosity and...   really trying to find how you can learn and be better every day, then they only want to do the same. So you really have to lead by example, lead with curiosity, really come to work every day, just trying to do better for people around you. And I want to chime in. think you lead from your heart too. You have a passion for people and you have a passion for what you do, dentistry. Like you live, breathe, speak it all the time.   Even outside the office. You're always- Too hard, right? Shut it down. You're always seeking new things. You're always at speaking with Dr. Parks about, what do you think about this? Or how would you approach this rather than this point of, hey, I do it this way, you have to do it. You do approach curiosity. And I think the frequency that he's able to, the amount of time they spend together in this office, they share an actual office. ⁓ So they're able to compare.   Kiera Dent (03:45) ⁓ And now you look beautiful!   Jeff & Andrew (04:14) Everything all the time. So if at any time that they're both in the office together I could walk by they're always talking about a case or how they could improve something or how could we approach this or This is funny. What like what should we do? You know, it becomes this collaboration and less of a like we're having a calibration meeting this day for this time We're going to talk about X. It's kind of a constant Yeah, like I listen in on his new patient exams. He listens in on mine. And yeah, it's just a   constant thing. I think, honestly, again, that was a necessity that that started that way. And I think in our old office, it was actually me, Jeff and Dr. Parks all in a room that was really meant to be for me. And we all were crammed in there. And eventually Jeff moved because he got tired of listening to us talk about dentistry.   Kiera Dent (05:01) I was gonna say that's why   Jeff's not in the office. He's like, I don't wanna hear about this dentistry. hear about it way too much. You two have fun.   Jeff & Andrew (05:04) He's like, I gotta get away from Yeah. need some space. Yeah.   So that wouldn't have been a decision I probably would have made if we had all this space, right? So I think it is funny, like again, that necessity and just kind of trust in the process and learning what you can. But I'm like, I'm so grateful for those early years and like he and I have such a bond now that we're excited for our next associate and bringing him or her into our office and making them a part of our little dorky dental group.   Kiera Dent (05:32) love it. And   I mean, Jeff, you're right. But I if I'm to have a dentist, I want the dentist who talks nonstop about dentistry. I know that's not probably so nice at home. Jason has an alarm on our phone for us. So, Jeff, if you want to take like marriage tip from me and Jay, because I will talk about business forever. And he's like, shut down, girl. The alarm goes off at five every night. And that's when I have to stop talking work. And it goes off like it's every single day. Six o five. I know what time and I'm like, OK.   Jeff & Andrew (05:40) I'm   Hahaha   Kiera Dent (05:59) That's my time limit. So you want to talk about like a show? I'm like, I don't even know what I'm about. So it's a really handy thing for me to have to shut it down. But Andrew, I am curious on that. I think a lot of doctors struggle and I love how you talked about like, this isn't how I do it. Like, what do you think and how can we do this? I'm curious. So let's say you saw of a future associate, we'll use Dr. Parks right now, cause that's one you know, you won't know the future one's personality, but   Jeff & Andrew (06:01) Yeah.   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (06:27) Let's say you see dentistry that's not up to your standard with Dr. Parks. How do you go and have that conversation with him to where he feels supported, but at the same time, you don't allow your culture, your brand, the type of dentistry to go out the door without having, like, people don't know how to have this conversation because you're both dentists. So how do you handle that with Dr. Parks?   Jeff & Andrew (06:46) Yeah. So I think, ⁓ kind of bring it back to like what he's doing it for, right? So it's not about me seeing a problem, but it's like, hey, here's how this could maybe be a better outcome for your patient, right? Or I would like argue, I would like to kind of always spin and make myself an example. Like, hey, I used to do it this way, right? Like, or I used to do something different, but my old mentor who I love and admire, like she helped show me the way, right? And I've really learned a lot from her. So I think that's also where   like for our future associate, need to make sure that that is a key component of their culture is to be open and constantly learning and be curious. And ⁓ I think that is definitely a big goal of ours is to find that in the next person. And that's where we also feel very lucky with our associate. We know that that's not ⁓ very easy to find an associate and kind of have that success with it. So again, as much as I'm appreciative for Jeff.   I'm very appreciative for Dr. Parks too, and I think it shows in our relationship as well.   Kiera Dent (07:46) Yeah. Well, I think like also though, when you've built a practice to your size, you normally now get to be choosy and picky. I feel like when you're like a little bit smaller, it's kind of like, I got to like help someone wants to come work in this like amazing brown, purple, green popcorn ceiling and share an office with me, my husband, and you get to be in here too, like Harry Potter corners all the way around. But now you get to be even more choosy on who comes forward because you've got this amazing space. You've got the place where someone wants to come.   Jeff & Andrew (07:56) Yeah. Right.   Yeah. Seriously. Right.   Kiera Dent (08:14) And I think that's gonna be really awesome to watch you grow on that next one. So thank you for that. Jeff, I wanna pivot to you. I've watched your leadership. I've watched you grow. I've watched you run a team. I've watched you go from Gilbert to Jeff. I've watched you sit in meetings. It was so fun to see you in person. It has been far too long for me. It was pre-COVID since the last time I saw you. And we met in person and I watched you. You sit there with this inquisitive mind. You sit there with this, you've got a...   Jeff & Andrew (08:31) I know.   Kiera Dent (08:41) depth of knowledge that's just impressive to me. And also I've watched you grow in your leadership. I've seen you, I talked to Tiffany and you're in your community in leadership courses, you're doing pieces. I just wanna know, and Andrew, this is now where you're gonna like love on Jeff on this, of how have you gone from where you were to where you are today? Like I know that's a whole process and I know that's very broad, but just even thinking of some of the strokes that you've taken, I know you and Tiff have worked super hard. I'm gonna give like mad kudos to Tiffany and I'm sure you will too.   Jeff & Andrew (09:08) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (09:08) But   I'm just curious because I think leadership is so elusive for so many people. And yet I've watched you like take this on this, but you're also a baller. Like you don't get run over. You have hard conversations. You speak up. You're very brilliant in what you do. Andrew, I agree. Jeff's a machine. I watch him. He's like, all right, got my list. I got all these things. I'm going home. Andrew, this is what we're going to do. You think, Jeff, you think Andrew's running the show, but.   I know that who's really running it is you. Like you're like, all right, this is getting done. We're getting all this done. This is where the lights are going. Everybody move in on this day. But you do it with poise and grace. so I'm just curious at like tips for people who maybe are trying to evolve in their leadership, things that you've done to be the, like truly, I think you're a huge example of a successful leader. And so it's okay. This is your brag moment. I know it can be awkward, but I really am just so proud of you and excited to hear what you think has been part of that evolution of you.   Jeff & Andrew (09:37) Yeah.   Well, the first, thank you. That's like, I want to cry right now. Thank you. You don't often hear that. ⁓ So thanks for that. ⁓ Honestly, know, I had a little experience ⁓ in my past career about, ⁓ you know, it was an industry that's off offshore. So it's a difficult industry.   Kiera Dent (10:06) You're welcome.   I feel tear-eyed, Luke, because I'm just really proud of you. Like truly.   Jeff & Andrew (10:27) for me personally to enter into, know, with these rough, greasy, you know, I'm not scared of dirt, obviously it was geology, but, you know, a lot of people aren't socially aware who might be working with them, you know, so, you know, being gay in an industry like that, that's nobody's like, ⁓ did I offend somebody by what I said? That's, you know what I mean? So that's, you kind of get a little bit of a tough skin there, right? So I've had experience.   With that, I've had experience managing projects ⁓ offshore. I've had experience managing projects onshore. I grew up in a family that my dad, my parents are business owners and I was put to work for not a legal pay at a very young age. So I just learned like, I've got to work to do this stuff. then, you know, fast forward to meeting you guys when I was unhappy, I was like, what am I going to do? Right? So you guys, you, Tiffany,   the collaboration, the tools, the building blocks, the confidence, the empowerment that you were like, you can do it and you're the only one that is, right? ⁓ So that led me on it. And then we went into the catalyst of showing up to that office that day with a different vibe and then seeing that it works. ⁓ So then I think naturally we moved to this county from a very different county in Florida that a lot...   Kiera Dent (11:46) Thank   Jeff & Andrew (11:55) population was very different and we're in a very different population here. So we did have some fear coming in. So we were cautious about, you know, how we represented ourselves, if we made a big splash. And then as we realized the momentum of the practice and the service of what we were doing, it was gaining momentum and people came to us for our service and our dentistry. So then that gave us confidence to be like, okay,   this is what people want. And I think part of my mindset ⁓ in creating the vision and how the business that we want is thinking about past jobs and what did Andrew not like about ⁓ how he was treated by a mentor, previous employers, or how he had to follow a protocol to do this to the patient. And we realized, I kind of just have a challenging mentality, like why?   You know, like, can we do it different? Should we do it different? Yeah, we probably should, because that's what everybody wants, right? So then we started to see those little pieces gain success and the community be like, we're going to them because they do that different. Differently. Differently. Thank you. We call them by name, something as simple as that, you know. It's like, wow, that's a big difference. So then.   Kiera Dent (12:51) .   Mm-hmm.   Right.   Jeff & Andrew (13:14) I think I'd encourage people to start looking in their area. I didn't realize the opportunities that our county and like had around us, right? So I started to take advantage of that. I to the chamber, we joined the chamber. ⁓ And then that led me to an opportunity for leadership Catawba. We live in Catawba County. I was like, let me try this. was, you know, a small time investment in the big picture. And that introduced me to people in our area that I was like, you're   I can lean on you now and I can use you as a resource. How can we work together? Then I was just learned so much about our county and the riches of it, like what sets this county apart. And I was like, I love that. That's what we try to do in our business. So then, you know, as you learn about your surroundings and how like the local government works, you can start to make those contacts and start to go to those people and then you become a source to them as well. ⁓   So in that, I learned about other opportunities. took an HR class at our local, our community college. I was like, I should probably know some like legit HR stuff, right? Right? Like before we build this giant dental practice. So that led me to the community college, which the HR class was in the furniture academy. So that led me to a relationship where in a big furniture area where they were custom building as they were teaching students creating furniture for a dental practice. So.   That opened up a community door. Then we started with the building. The whole purpose of buying a building bigger than we need it is so we can put that vision forward and ⁓ create a big collaborative space. But in doing so within our own space, we did create a large conference room, a little kind of event space that we've welcomed Hickory Football Club in. are soccer teams, we've had Girl Scouts in, we've had other nonprofits in.   It's kind of become a space that we can host and collaborate with the community and welcome them into our space. I kind of love that. I think it's been the curiosity and kind of just little incremental like, cool, this sounds cool. I'm going to do this. And then that leads to so much. And we were even just saying like the whole like our building is so big. Like we have an area that we actually offer like a nonprofit in the area to come. were they were losing their space and they came here and it's led to so now I feel so fulfilled that I'm   helping someone in a way that's not dentistry, which I never thought I would do. And so it just feels good to like given that way that we never imagined and it's led to so much more. So I think that curiosity is led to that. That's where with Jeff, like he really is like so amazing at being good, being, he's living by that example, right? Like he's gonna be here every day. He's gonna be put in the work. He's gonna do all these things and he's inspired now that he did the leadership we've sent.   one of our other staff member or team members. And then we've got a third one that's about to go to leadership Katawba. So it's just kind of led to a lot of inspiration for the people around us. And yeah, I think that the more you can kind of be there for others and let others kind of lean on you, it's just really, like that sense of community is there. And I think that's where too, you kind of start realizing you're not there for everyone and everyone's not going to love me as a dentist, but I get, there'll be enough, right? There's enough people. yeah. And we feel good about what we're doing.   And we know we're raising people up and it's raising us up too. So, and I think it's really important to ⁓ provide opportunities, like learning opportunities outside the practice, because that's where connections really get made.   Kiera Dent (16:41) Yeah.   I Jeff, was just I agree with you, Andrew. What I was hearing, I'm like, I always am listening for like, what's the pattern? What's the silver lining? Like what really sets you apart? And I think Jeff, it was truly hearing the curiosity and also the drive to be the best. Like I should go learn HR. Like this is a zone I'm gapped in. And instead of it being like, well, let's just like find some for you. Like, no, I'm going to go learn. I'm going to hunker in. Then I'm going to figure out how I need to delegate this out. And I have a sign over here from Gandhi that we've given our leaders this year and it's   Jeff & Andrew (17:15) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (17:20) A sign of a good leader is not how many followers you have, but how many leaders you create. And I think, Jeff, that's something you're doing really incredibly well of creating more leaders around you and rising more people up around you. And Andrew, the same thing for you. You're rising these doctors up around you. You're bringing your team up with you. And I think it's so beautiful to see. So I'm just really proud of both of you. And it's like, it's just such a fun thing to be able to give back to both of you and to just highlight how many amazing things you have.   My last question for us tonight is where you're wrapping up is what's next? Like what's next on the radar? Like business-wise, personal-wise, like we built this, we had this vision, but I believe like if we stop dreaming and we stop evolving, then we stop growing as well. It does not have to be large, Andrew. You don't have to have like a huge next, like we're building ⁓ a city. I could see you coming up to that big, all right, Jeff, we're like build our own city now. But like what's next? Like what's in the next like one, two, five years?   What's it looking like for your practice, for each other, where you guys at? And I'll let anybody take this on. What's next for you guys?   Jeff & Andrew (18:21) Yeah, well, think for, well, I did want to say one more thing about ⁓ inspiring leaders, because I we were talking about associates. But another thing that I have to always bring up is my mom was a single mom, four kids, because you were talking about ⁓ our parents earlier. And so single mom, four kids. She was also a dental assistant. So I think I grew up around dentistry. I grew up with a mom that wasn't making a lot of money for what she did. So I appreciate so much our team and my assistants.   I don't leave a room without thanking them for what they did in front of the patient. So that's probably the most important thing I've taught ⁓ our associate is to always be thankful for the people that are helping you do what you do. So I think living every day and coming into work with that mentality is super helpful. So I wanna keep that.   Kiera Dent (19:08) that and I'm also gonna say Jeff you had no hope when you met Andrew there was no hope for you to get out of dentistry like mom, family, his life, if you were destined for dentistry when you and Andrew met so I love that I'm like wow now hearing your mom I was like ⁓ he he saw you from a mile away not only did he like fall in love with you but he's like ⁓ this his life to be changed forever   Jeff & Andrew (19:12) Yeah, I know. Yeah.   I should have saw that coming. Yeah, he was. He's going right in.   Yeah. Yeah. I was like, need that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah. So yeah, I think my, my next goal will be to help us find a new associate. So our daughter parks and I both are super busy now or both feeling like, gosh, it would be really nice to be able to take some time off and not feel like we're putting the other one in our tough pickle. You know? So we also have a lot of great things to teach our next associate and, ⁓   I think what used to scare our team is to think about that growth. And now our team feels empowered to be like, we're not so sure about that person. They speak up and they're our guardians. So I think what's really cool is like, I've kind of let some of this go and now I get to really focus on my dentistry and learning more and what can I improve? What do we wanna bring into the office to offer more patients or how can we be better every day? So, yeah.   Kiera Dent (20:18) Amazing. I   love that. Okay, that's what it's on for Andrew. Jeff, what about for you? What's next for Jeff's world?   Jeff & Andrew (20:24) a vacation in two weeks. We got one planned. got do. We do. Yes. It's our first two week vacation ever in my life. I'm really nervous. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (20:26) Yeah, where you wanna go?   Like be so excited. You should listen to all the other podcasts. I'm always like, owners, we need leave because if you don't leave, can't find the gaps in your practice. So like, this is the best thing to do. So don't freak out, Andrew. Just realize you're doing your business the best service. You're leaving. You can see the gaps. You can fix them when you come home. Yeah. That's how I justify it. like, no, the business needs me to leave, obviously.   Jeff & Andrew (20:39) Yeah. I know.   Yeah. Yeah. Okay.   I like it. Yes, that's great. Yeah. Yeah.   And I will say, I feel excited now because I can see people knowing that we're leaving. Everybody's making sure everybody they're looking ahead at the schedule. They're making sure I get people in that I want to see Megan. Sure, everything's going to be OK. And it's just awesome. I used to stress so much about taking a day off and then now to know like we're about to take two weeks off. It's really amazing.   Kiera Dent (21:19) Amazing. Okay. Well, I think that's good. Just like we need this. I need this. You need to shut it off and we're not talking about history.   Jeff & Andrew (21:25) I wouldn't do it without.   I wouldn't have done it without him. That's another big thing, right? So he's pushed me. I'm like, Jeff, are we okay to do this? Like, that's another thing I probably would not have said to I know I need to write. So you kind of need those people to help kind of make you see the other side and say, okay, we're okay. And we do need it. And everyone has told me that like, I know you're thinking you don't need it or that you are going to stress out, but you're going to come back so invigorated and so excited.   Kiera Dent (21:49) always tell everybody the best things I do for my business are when I do what I call white noise time. And I check out what I do, Andrew and Jeff, you guys might take my tip. I literally don't turn my phone on at all. So like no one can connect me. If I go out of the country, I do not connect to wifi. It's a smidge creepy for my family. So like Jason usually turns it on. And then I get angry for about two days. So I'm like detoxing of having like everything. And I'm like mad at Jason. I feel like I'm putting time out. I feel so angry that I've just got to sit here and read a stupid book.   Jeff & Andrew (22:06) Hahaha! ⁓   Yeah.   You   Kiera Dent (22:20) once the adrenaline's   gone, I'm like, ⁓ and then my best ideas actually show up. So, better or for worse, get ready, Jeff. He'll probably come home with like million ideas, but, and you should probably have alarms that like you're only allowed to talk down the street for like one hour a day. Like that's it, because of course it'll like come up, but it's also shocking when I did that last summer, Jason and I, took a whole month off and I'm like,   Jeff & Andrew (22:25) Weird. Yeah, that's awesome.   Probably.   Kiera Dent (22:44) I don't actually know what to talk to you about if we don't talk dentistry. So I had to like, refine myself, refine our relationship of like, what do we do beyond dentistry? This is helpful. So anyway, okay, going on a week trip, where are going?   Jeff & Andrew (22:47) I   We're going to Sweden for two weeks. Yeah, we're excited.   Kiera Dent (22:58) I'm so ⁓   Jeff & Andrew (23:04) I that. I'll be too. For like a minute.   Be prepared.   Yeah.   So I think we there's a there's something we want to do internally that we've been kind of mulling over and kind of taking a couple steps to we brought somebody on that I think we can actually elevate and help create this. So it's a it's a younger team member and he's got really good skills ⁓ with the lane that we want.   him to go down. So we kind of want to empower him to build this, ⁓ not for us, but with us, ⁓ and kind of create this position for himself. And kind of, it would be job sustainability, know, and have him, elevate him to build a team under him as well. ⁓ At the same time, you know, we want to   Kiera Dent (23:57) Yeah.   Totally.   Jeff & Andrew (24:14) We need to fill the rest of our building. We've, ⁓ we're working with some nonprofits. brought one in, we have two more suites to go. And, ⁓ so I want to continue that and make sure, ⁓ one thing that we're not like putting for lease signs out there. want to make sure that, you know, serves our vision and serves the community, the people that come in. and we were also, you know, we have our own building to create something. So I don't know, there's a lot.   Kiera Dent (24:45) amazing. I do too. I need to... I was gonna say this is where you need the vacation Andrew and Jeff so you like shut it down all the great but I my best idea the podcast literally came when I was hiking Half Dome Yosemite like I'm not even talking about work and I was like this is a great idea I should do that so here we are like five years later but   Jeff & Andrew (24:45) I see a lot in the future. All good things. Lots of dreamings needed.   Yeah. That's it.   Yeah, yeah They're kind of like just   waiting and I think you're right I think this little white noise period could just be like, there they all are. I totally agree   Kiera Dent (25:14) It really   happens. It's weird. And I feel like as owners, we are in such a grind, like we don't know how to shut it off. But when we do, I'm like, that's when the best ideas show up. Like best ideas hit us in like when we wake up in the morning or when we're in the shower or when we're on a run or when we're on a hike or, I'm like, okay, so clearly I need to schedule more of that in consistently. So that way my best ideas can show up and we can keep evolving. But guys, you should be so proud of yourself. Like go enjoy that vacation. I'm so excited for you to go to Sweden.   the chocolate, please. mean, you hear it. But, ⁓ but no, just as as someone who's watched you evolve, I hope you guys just take in like, the kudos. I hope everybody listening, you're hearing like how they went through this, how they built their vision. And the thing I think I really glean from today's podcast are one, you two really lean on each other as a very safe duo of you two trust each other. You're in your lanes, you allow each other to be experts, you allow the like, nerdiness of either side to come out and you love that about the other person.   Also like really being true to yourselves, to your vision and building an entire team around you. I think so many people are scared to be themselves. And Jeff, thank you for sharing like agreed being gay, being different, having a different maybe, especially with the town you're in. I think that that was probably a big step and leap for you, but to stay true to who you are and you'll find that you will attract your tribe. You'll attract in the people that want to be a part of it ⁓ and not being afraid to share that. So I'm just so proud of you guys.   I am so grateful you came on. It was so fun to highlight you, to share about you. Are there any last things you guys wanna leave as we wrap up today? I'll start with Jeff first. Last thoughts, anything you wanna add to today?   Jeff & Andrew (26:48) Yeah, I just want to make sure that ⁓ you, Dental A team and Tiffany are really recognize, like understand your value because at every step of the way, you guys were always there for us. I could pick up the phone, Tiffany will pick it, she'll answer. It could be about plumbing. It could be about team. It could be about operations. You guys are always there for us consistently every step of the way. If you don't have an answer.   You know, we brainstorm and we are like, okay, or you'll find it. You know, it's, I couldn't thank you guys enough. You did. I tell you every time, but it's true. You guys changed my life, both of our lives, honestly, ⁓ for the better. And we wouldn't be here today if we didn't have your encouragement, your support, and your backing behind us this whole time. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you, Kiara. Thank you, Tiffany. Thank you, Den-L-A team.   Yes, thank you, Tiffany. Thank you. Thank you both for everything. Tell a team we were like so it like a pretty shit for you guys here. Like I remember we were talking about earlier meeting senior on the plane, giving you the brownie brittle. And I think I go back to like our first couple meetings and I I think you guys were like the first. No, you were the first that helped us not just see like when we were doing like team meetings about dentistry. It also was how does this relate to your personal?   Kiera Dent (27:46) Thank you.   Jeff & Andrew (28:15) And I think that's where the that could have been the switch you were asking about earlier. Sorry, it took me this long to realize that's what I love. That was the switch because it went from like, what can I teach you about dentistry to like, how can we all just live better lives? How can we come to work and be happy? How can you go home and use what you're learning here with your your house? And I think every time Tiffany comes in, we talk sometimes more about personal things going on at home and how this relates to work. And it's really just made that our culture. And I think   whether it's me and my weight loss, that's something too. lost 90 pounds three years or four years ago now. that's, thank you. And that's kind of led to like we did a whole weight loss program with our whole staff. Like we learned nutrition and like we made things not about just dentistry, but like how we all can just live better lives. And I think that's really what's kind of just blown us up. So thank you so much for all of that.   Kiera Dent (28:48) look amazing, Andrew, like, amazing.   proud mama over here and just huge like thank you because to hear clients, to hear people that we didn't know prior to dentistry, like dentistry is our platform, life is our passion and to hear that you're thriving, that you are these amazing humans that are fulfilled, that is what we want. We don't want just dentistry. Like I said dentistry is our platform, life is our passion and so   And like, Andrew, I saw you I was like, my gosh, you look like so great. And Jeff, you just look vibrant and you've gone through so many pieces and yet you're still smiling. You're still happy. You still, like you said, it's life. This is what it is. And we just get lucky enough to find each other through dentistry. So thank you for being a part of our family. Tiff's been incredible. And I'm just excited for like the next level and to continue to watch you guys flourish. Like I said, my biggest passion is making the best people have the best lives and truly win. So thanks for being on the podcast. I appreciate it.   Jeff & Andrew (29:56) Thank you.   Kiera Dent (29:57) you. ⁓   Jeff & Andrew (29:58) Thank you for having us.   Kiera Dent (30:00) of course. And for all of you listening, I hope you were inspired today by Jeff and Andrew. They're people that have inspired me and I hope you saw yourself through the writing in the fabric of their story to see the things that are possible from Jeff not feeling like he even knew how to be into dentistry to running this huge practice and inspiring people to Andrew growing and evolving and bringing on things that he never thought were possible.   I hope all of you see the potential within yourselves and ⁓ I'd love to be a part of your story and your journey. So reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on The Dental Team A Podcast.   Jeff & Andrew (30:32) Thank you.  

A new development has emerged in the case against Bryan Kohberger, the suspect in the 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students. A woman, identified only as "MM" in court documents, claims she was the DoorDash driver who delivered food to victim Xana Kernodle shortly before the killings occurred. In bodycam footage from a September 2024 DUI stop in Pullman, Washington, she states, "I'm the DoorDash driver. I saw Bryan there. I parked right next to him." This statement suggests she may have witnessed Kohberger near the crime scene on the night of the murders. The authenticity of this claim is supported by DoorDash delivery records and surveillance footage placing Kohberger's vehicle in the vicinity around the time of the crime.However, the woman's credibility could be challenged due to her arrest for driving under the influence of prescription medication during the same incident. Despite this, her statement has garnered attention as a potentially significant piece of evidence in the case. Prosecutors may seek to introduce her testimony to establish a timeline of events leading up to the murders, while the defense may attempt to discredit her account. The trial is scheduled to begin in August 2025, with jury selection starting in late July. As the proceedings unfold, this new witness could play a pivotal role in the case against Kohberger.to contact me:bobbycapucci@protonmail.comsource:Bryan Kohberger murder case: Potential witness appears to say she saw him at the scene, police video shows | CNNBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-epstein-chronicles--5003294/support.

J'ai tapé “revers en retard badminton” dans Google. Et c'est là que tout a commencé. Par curiosité, j'ai cliqué sur une vidéo… et me suis retrouvée embarquée dans un parcours client super bien ficelé. Dans cette MM – la 2e d'une mini série consacrée au parcours client – je reviens sur les deux premières étapes : la qualification et l'approche. Tu verras : même un petit mot-clé bien choisi peut faire toute la différence. Et toi : – Est-ce que tu qualifies tes prospects ? – Comment tu fais pour “rentrer dans leur radar” ? (Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

Hey HBs! The wonderful Jaime P. Bradley is here to help Mel recap the movie Muriel's Wedding! It may not be a romance, but it's got a stupidly-talented Toni Collette, wild coming-of-age antics, and lots of LADY LOVE!!!! Content Warnings: Cancer diagnosis and treatment, suicide of a parent. Check out Jaime's books! https://jaimepbradley.com/the-books/ and follow her on Tiktok and Instagram! Want more of us? Check out our PATREON! This Friday Patrons and Apple Podcast subscribers are getting a squeepisode on the last book in The Games We Play in Granville series, SEVEN MINUTES IN KEVIN by DJ Jamison! Thank you for keeping Mel sane, fluffy MM romance authors! Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast (at) gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms Tiktok @heaving_bosoms  Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more.

A new development has emerged in the case against Bryan Kohberger, the suspect in the 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students. A woman, identified only as "MM" in court documents, claims she was the DoorDash driver who delivered food to victim Xana Kernodle shortly before the killings occurred. In bodycam footage from a September 2024 DUI stop in Pullman, Washington, she states, "I'm the DoorDash driver. I saw Bryan there. I parked right next to him." This statement suggests she may have witnessed Kohberger near the crime scene on the night of the murders. The authenticity of this claim is supported by DoorDash delivery records and surveillance footage placing Kohberger's vehicle in the vicinity around the time of the crime.However, the woman's credibility could be challenged due to her arrest for driving under the influence of prescription medication during the same incident. Despite this, her statement has garnered attention as a potentially significant piece of evidence in the case. Prosecutors may seek to introduce her testimony to establish a timeline of events leading up to the murders, while the defense may attempt to discredit her account. The trial is scheduled to begin in August 2025, with jury selection starting in late July. As the proceedings unfold, this new witness could play a pivotal role in the case against Kohberger.to contact me:bobbycapucci@protonmail.comsource:Bryan Kohberger murder case: Potential witness appears to say she saw him at the scene, police video shows | CNN

A new development has emerged in the case against Bryan Kohberger, the suspect in the 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students. A woman, identified only as "MM" in court documents, claims she was the DoorDash driver who delivered food to victim Xana Kernodle shortly before the killings occurred. In bodycam footage from a September 2024 DUI stop in Pullman, Washington, she states, "I'm the DoorDash driver. I saw Bryan there. I parked right next to him." This statement suggests she may have witnessed Kohberger near the crime scene on the night of the murders. The authenticity of this claim is supported by DoorDash delivery records and surveillance footage placing Kohberger's vehicle in the vicinity around the time of the crime.However, the woman's credibility could be challenged due to her arrest for driving under the influence of prescription medication during the same incident. Despite this, her statement has garnered attention as a potentially significant piece of evidence in the case. Prosecutors may seek to introduce her testimony to establish a timeline of events leading up to the murders, while the defense may attempt to discredit her account. The trial is scheduled to begin in August 2025, with jury selection starting in late July. As the proceedings unfold, this new witness could play a pivotal role in the case against Kohberger.to contact me:bobbycapucci@protonmail.comsource:Bryan Kohberger murder case: Potential witness appears to say she saw him at the scene, police video shows | CNNBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-moscow-murders-and-more--5852883/support.

Could This Witness Change The Whole Case? #kohberger #Doordash #Idaho 4 case Could the door dash driver put the most powerful eyewitness in this prosecution against Bryan Kohberger? MM as the door dash driver is called saw Bryan kohberger in front of 1122 King Road on 11/13/22 in the early morning hours.

True grit? Not the movie or book, but a real live individual. I met Laura Bratton about a month ago and realized that she was a very unique individual. Laura was referred to me by a gentleman who is helping both Laura and me find speaking venue leads through his company. Laura is just ramping up her public speaking career and our mutual colleague, Sam Richter, thought I could be of help. Little did I know at the outset that not only would I gain an excellent podcast guest, but that I would find someone whose life parallelled mine in many ways.   Laura Bratton began losing her eyesight at the age of nine years. Like me, she was one of the lucky ones who had parents who made the choice to encourage their daughter and help her live her life to the fullest. And live it she does. Laura attended public school in South Carolina and then went to Arizona State University to secure her bachelor's degree in Psychology. Why ASU? Wait until you hear Laura tell that story.   After securing her degree in Psychology she moved to the Princeton School of Divinity where she secured a Master's degree in Divinity. She followed up her Master's work by serving in a chaplaincy program in Ohio for a year.   Then, if all that wasn't enough, she became a pastor in the United Methodist Church and took a position in South Carolina. She still works part time as a pastor, but she also has taken some other exciting and positive life turns. As I mentioned earlier, she is now working to build a public speaking career. She also does one-on-one coaching. In 2016 she wrote her first book.   Laura shares many poignant and relevant life lessons she has learned over the years. We talk about courage, gratitude and grit. I asked her to define grit which she does. A very interesting and good definition indeed.   I often get the opportunity to have guests on this podcast who share life and other lessons with all of us. To me, Laura's insights are as relevant as any I have encountered. I hope you will feel the same after listening to our conversation. Please let me know what you think. You can email me at michaelhi@accessibe.com.       About the Guest:   At the age of nine, Laura was diagnosed with an eye disease and faced the difficult reality that she would become blind. Over the next ten years she experienced the traumatic transition of adjusting to life without sight.  Laura adjusted to her new normal and was able to move forward in life as she graduated from Arizona State University with a BA in psychology. She then was the first blind student to receive her Masters of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary.  She is the author of the book, Harnessing Courage. Laura founded Ubi Global, which is an organization that provides speaking and coaching to empower all people to overcome challenges and obstacles with grit and gratitude. Ways to connect with Dr. Laura:   Link for LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/laura-bratton-speaking   Website https://www.laurabratton.com/   Link for coaching page on website https://www.laurabratton.com/coaching  Link for book on website https://www.laurabratton.com/book   Link for speaking page on website https://www.laurabratton.com/speaking   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well and a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be on our planet today, I am your host, Michael Hinkson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and we sort of get to tie several of those together today, because my guest, Laura Bratton happens to be blind, so that brings inclusion into it, and we could talk about diversity all day. The experts really tend to make that a challenge, but we can talk about it ourselves, but Laura is blind, and she's going to tell us about that, and I don't know what else, because that's the unexpected part of this, but we're going to have ourselves a lot of fun for the next hour. She knows that the only rule of the podcast is you got to have fun, and you can't do better than that. So Laura, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Laura Bratton ** 02:12 Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity. I'm excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:15 Well, this will be some fun, I'm sure, which is, of course, what it's all about. Well, why don't we start by you telling us kind of about the early Laura, growing up and all that, and anything about that that you think we ought to know that'll help us as we go forward.   Laura Bratton ** 02:31 So the early Laura was,   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 you know, that was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. But yeah,   Laura Bratton ** 02:38 was was fearless. Was involved in so many different activities, and I didn't have any health concerns or vision problems. And then around the age of nine, after the summer, after my second grade school year, my parents started noticing she's just holding books a little bit closer. She's just sitting a little bit closer to the TV than normal, than usually. So my they decided we'll just make a regular pediatric ophthalmology appointment, take her to the doctor, get the doctor to check her out. You know, if you need glasses, that's fine, and we'll just move on with our our summer and prepare for a new school year. So that June, when I had that doctor's appointment, my eyes were dilated. I'd read the the letters on the chart in the room. The doctors had looked in my eyes, and then the doctor just rolled back in his chair and looked at my mom and said, there's a major problem going on, and we need to address this, and I'm going to send you to a retina specialist. There's something major going on with her retinas. So from that appointment that started the rest of the summer and into the fall of just having doctors, different doctors appointments, meeting with specialists, trying to figure out why this 910, year old was all of a sudden having vision problems.   Michael Hingson ** 04:20 So yeah, go ahead that,   Laura Bratton ** 04:22 yeah. So that started the whole vision loss journey,   Michael Hingson ** 04:27 and what was the diagnosis that they finally came up with?   Laura Bratton ** 04:31 So they finally came up with a diagnosis of rare retinal onset disease. So it's not genetic. It wasn't like another accident, physical accident that calls the blindness. It's most similar to macular. So what I was losing first was my central vision. I still had all my peripheral vision, so it's very similar to macular, but not. Not quite macular or star guards. What's happens in children? So that's the diagnosis, just rare retinal disease.   Michael Hingson ** 05:11 Interesting, and they they didn't have any idea that what caused it. Do they have any better idea today? Or is it just so rare that they don't tend to pay a whole lot of attention. Great   Laura Bratton ** 05:23 question, yes and yes. So I've done a lot of genetic testing over the years, and the gene has not been discovered. That is obviously what they are predicting, is that there had to be some kind of gene mutation. But that gene hasn't been discovered. So far, the genes that are identified with vision problems, those have not been the problem for me so far. So the gene, Gene hasn't been discovered. So testing continues, but not exactly sure yet.   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 Yeah. So do you have any eyesight left, or is it all gone?   Laura Bratton ** 06:04 I don't, so to continue kind of that process of of the the early childhood. So I was diagnosed around nine, but I didn't lose any major vision until I was in middle school. So the end of middle school is when I started to lose a significant part of sight. So I went from very quickly from roller print, large print, to braille, and that was a very quick transition. So basically it was normal print to learning Braille and using Braille and textbooks and Braille and audio books and all that. Then through high school, I will throw more a significant amount of vision. So what I have currently is just very limited light perception, no, what I consider no usable vision, just light perception,   Michael Hingson ** 06:55 so you learn braille. So you learn braille in middle school. Then, yes, okay, absolutely. What did you think about that? Because that was certainly a life change for you. How did you deal with all of that?   Laura Bratton ** 07:10 How did I do with the process of learning braille or the emotional process?   07:14 Both,   Laura Bratton ** 07:16 they're kind of related, so both, they're very much related. So learning Braille was incredibly difficult because I was trying to learn it at the same time. Use it with textbooks in middle school level material rather than normal development. Of you learn braille and start out, you know, with with simple books, and slowly move up. I try, you know, I had to make that adjustment from learning Braille and then algebra in Braille or Spanish and Braille. So using the Braille was very difficult, but I was because I was forced to to learn it, because I had to, just to stay in school. You didn't really have a choice. As far as the emotional perspective. My first thoughts was just the denial, oh, it's not that bad, oh, it won't be forever. Oh, it's not going to get much worse than this. Just that denial of the reality. And then I can say more, if it just kind of that whole how that whole process unfolded, that's kind of the whole emotional process. It   Michael Hingson ** 08:34 certainly was a major change for you, yes, but it sounds like by the time all was said and done, and you did have to immerse yourself, like in learning Braille and so on. So it was an immersive kind of thing. You, You did come through it, and you, you seem to be functioning pretty well today, I would gather   Laura Bratton ** 08:55 Yes, because of focusing on the emotional mindset piece. So once that I've sort of began to move out of denial. It was that, okay, well, I can't this is just too hard. And then what I eventually realized and accepted was, yes, it's hard and I can move forward. So just a practical example, is what you were saying about having to be fully immersed in the Braille. Yes, is really hard to jump from learning braille to knowing Braille and algebra. But also choose to move forward. As you said, I choose to immerse myself in this so that I can continue life, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:42 and you you have done it. Well, how? How do you view blindness today?   Laura Bratton ** 09:49 That is a great question. So today is the balance of acknowledging. Yes, they're difficult moments. Yes, their stressful moments. Moments, and I have the resources to process that. So now, rather than just being a denial or being stuck in that I can't do this, I can say, okay, yes, this is hard. Yes, I am frustrated. Yes, I am overwhelmed in this moment, but also I can move forward with the gifts and purposes that I have in this world and using that as a strength. So for me, it's that acknowledging the rap the reality, but also moving forward with that belief in myself, trust in myself.   Michael Hingson ** 10:39 So how long did you at the beginning really grieve and view all this in a negative way? Because it sounds like you've evolved from that today.   Laura Bratton ** 10:53 Absolutely. So in my experience, the so I'm going to break the grief and the negative apart, because for me, it was two different experiences. So for me in those middle school, high school days, it was more than negative, and the grief just came along with that. Now even, you know, through college and even now, yes, there are moments that I grieve, but that negativity has turned into the mindset of strength, the mindset of trust, the mindset of okay, I can continue forward Again, living out those purposes, my purpose with those gifts as a source of strength, the source of courage. It's a source of just belief in myself. So my experience now is the mindset of holding both intention, holding space for both when I have those moments that I need to grieve, absolutely, giving myself those space and then at the same time, choosing to move forward with that courage, rather than being stuck in what I was in middle school of that negativity. Does that difference? Does that make us make sense of what I'm trying to separate the two?   Michael Hingson ** 12:19 Well, yeah, they overlap, but I understand what you're saying, Where, where and how were your parents in all of this?   Laura Bratton ** 12:28 So that was the incredible gift, that that was a deep source of strength, that as that middle school child who was in that negative place of denial and I can't, I can't. That was the source of strength. So immediately, when I was diagnosed, even though I didn't have major vision loss, I was diagnosed in elementary school, they wanted to send me to school for the deaf and blind, and so my parents had to fight to keep me in regular school. Again, I wasn't experiencing major vision loss, but just having minor vision loss, the school said, Okay, you're at a public school and going to a different school. So my parents were a source of strength, because they knowledge what was happening, what was going to happen, but also held me to the same standards.   Michael Hingson ** 13:25 And there are some schools, I don't know how much today, but in the past, there were some schools for the blind, and I'm not sure about schools for the deaf and blind, but we'll put them in the same category. But there were some schools that really did have very high standards, and and did do a great job. The Perkins School was one. Tom Sullivan, the actor, went through Perkins and and I know other people who did, but in general, the standards weren't the same, and I had the same issue. I remember my parents. We were in the office of the school principal of Yucca school where I went kindergarten through third grade here in California, okay, and I remember a shouting match between my father and my mother on one side, and Mr. Thompson, the principal on the other. And by the time all was said and done, he decided that it was he was going to acquiesce, because they were not going to let me go to the school for the blind, which would have been like, 400 miles away.   Laura Bratton ** 14:38 Okay, okay, so, so you can relate to that experience.   Michael Hingson ** 14:42 I can absolutely relate to that experience, and I think that it's for kids one of the most important things to hope comes along that parents deal with blindness in a in a positive way. Yes, and don't view it as something that's going to hold you back. I. 100% Yeah, because if they do, then that creates a much more difficult situation. Yes. So it's it's great that you had some parents who really stood up for you and helped as you went   Laura Bratton ** 15:15 Yes, and I was also deeply grateful that they all they held those standards at school, and they also held those standards at home. So they didn't just say, oh, you know, our expectations are lower for you at home, you don't have any more chores. You just kind of do whatever you want, get away with whatever you want. They kept those things standards. I still had chores we just made, you know, the accommodations are adapted if we needed to adapt anything. Yeah, a story that I always, always remember, just like you talking about you vividly remember being in that principal's office. I remember one day my the specific tour was unloading the dishwasher, and I remember thinking, well, oh, I'm not really, I don't really want to unload the dishwasher today. So I just kind of thought, Oh, the blindness will get me out of the situation. So I was like, Mom, I can't unload the dishwasher. I can't see exactly where to put all the silverware in the silverware of her door. And I still, I can still see this in my mind's eye. She was standing in the doorway the kitchen and the hallway, and she just turned around and just said, Laura, unload the dishwasher, put the silverware in the drawer, and just walked away. And that told me she was still holding me to the exact standards. She wasn't saying, Oh, honey, that's okay because of your blindness. Yeah, you don't have to do it. That was such a huge teaching moment for me, because it pulled me I can't use my blindness as an excuse. That was incredible experience and I always think back on and remember,   Michael Hingson ** 17:04 yeah, and I remember growing up, there were chores I did, there were chores My brother did, and there were things that we had to do, but we had, and my brother was cited two years older than I, but okay, but we had very supportive parents for both of us. And one of the things that the doctors told my parents when they discovered that I was blind, was that I was going to take all the love that the family had, even for my older sibling. Oh, my parent and my parents said that is just not so, and they worked really hard to make sure that my brother got all the things that that he needed and all the support that he needed as well. Wow. When he was still in high school, I remember they got him a car, and I don't remember when he got it. Maybe, I don't know whether he was already a senior in high school, but he got a car. And, you know, I didn't want a car. I right. I didn't want that, but, you know, that was okay. I would have driven it around if I got one, but, you know, that's okay, but, but parents are such an important part of the process, yes, and they have to be ready to take the leap, yes, that blindness isn't the problem. It's attitudes. That's really, that tend to really be the problem, right? 100%   Laura Bratton ** 18:24 and thankfully, thankfully, I had that. I had that experience another, another example that I always think of all the time, still such a vivid memory, is as as a family. We were a big sports family, and loved to go to different sporting events, and so we would always go to high school and college football games. And as I was in those middle school, high school years, those first, early days of experiencing difficult vision loss, where obviously I'm sitting in the sands and can't see the field clearly, rather than my parents saying, Oh, you're just going to stay home. Oh, you're not going with us. To be part of this, my dad are really, literally. Remember my dad saying, Here's a radio. I just put new batteries in. Let's go. So I would just sit there and, you know, with with my family, listening to the game on the radio. And that was such a gift, because, again, they didn't say, is what you're saying about the leap. They didn't say, okay, you can do this anymore. They just figured out a way to adapt so that I was still part.   Michael Hingson ** 19:34 Yeah, I've been to a number of baseball games, and the same thing, I've never been I've been to a high school football game, but I've never been to a pro football game, and I've never been to a basketball game, and while I think it would have been fun, I'm a little bit spoiled, and I think that the announcers today aren't as good as the announcers that we used to have, like Dick Enberg doing sports out here, who did. Football chick, Hearn, who did basketball, who could talk as fast as, I mean, he was, he was he taught me how to listen fast. That's great. He he talked as fast as many times books I read talk. He was just incredible. But that's okay. But still, I've been to games, and it is a lot of fun to be able to go and listen. It's even if you're listening on the radio, the point of being at the game is just the sounds and the experience of being at the game and hearing and interacting with all the sounds, because you're not hearing that as much through the radio as you are listening to the fans as they yell, or as the Yes, as the foul balls coming at you. You know, yes 100%   Laura Bratton ** 20:50 and just to feel the energy, you know, and your team's doing well, your team's not doing well, just to feel that energy, and there's to also to be there and have that, that fun experience with your family or friends, or you know, whoever you're with, that is such a fun experience. So yes,   Michael Hingson ** 21:08 so when you went into high school, did, what did you study? Or what did you do there?   Laura Bratton ** 21:15 What were your interests? So in college, when I   Michael Hingson ** 21:18 was thinking high school, but you can do college. So   Laura Bratton ** 21:21 High School, honestly, I didn't have specific professional interests, because it was just so much focused on the blind surviving and all the surviving, just the New Black, because the blindness was literally happening during high school, right? So my only focus was just survival passing because it was all of my energy was focused on the the learning Braille and just completing the assignments. Fast forward to college. My focus was definitely. My major was psychology. My focus was on psychology. A lot because of my personal experience, because of that experience in high school, and just that that not only that desire from my personal experience, but just using that experience to then help and support others from the mindset of of again, moving through that, that negativity to that, that foundation of grit. So it was definitely focused on psychology to be able to support others from a mindset perspective.   Michael Hingson ** 22:36 So how did you bring that into play in college?   Laura Bratton ** 22:40 So that was my focus. My My major was psychology, and then I I spent that, those years in college, figuring out specifically what area of psychology I wanted to focus on, which what, what facet of psychology I wanted my focus to be so that was, that was the purpose of the like psychology and taking different classes within psychology to try to figure out where my strengths within that Major   Michael Hingson ** 23:16 and what did you discover?   Laura Bratton ** 23:20 So what I discovered was I wanted the psychology to the mindset, to support people with to be that holistic perspective of, yes, the psychology, but also the spiritual connection and just our physical well being all connected together, so supporting our healthy mindsets and emotional health was not just psychology. It was the psychology, physical taking care of ourselves and the spiritual taking care of ourselves, all connected, combined together. So that's that's what led me to doing a master of divinity to be able to focus on and learn the spiritual part   Michael Hingson ** 24:15 of the mindset. So what part of psychology Did you eventually settle on   Laura Bratton ** 24:22 the holistic approach. So rather than just focus on specifically the mindset, focusing on us as a whole, being, supporting us through that mental, physical, spiritual connection that the healing, the empowerment came through, through all of that. So in that masters, what I focus on specifically was chaplaincy, so supporting people specifically I was a hospital chaplain, so focusing on helping people within the hospital setting, when they're there for different physical reasons and. Being able to be that spiritual presence focusing on both the spiritual and the emotional.   Michael Hingson ** 25:07 And where did you do your undergraduate study?   Laura Bratton ** 25:11 So I did my undergrad at Arizona State, and I was going to say a large reason, but not just a large reason, pretty much the whole reason I chose ASU was for their disability resources. So a major focus that that they emphasize is their disability resources is not a separate part of the university, but it's completely integrated into the university. So what I mean by that example of that is being a psychology major. I still had all the same classes. I was still in all the same classes as all the other psychology students on campus. I just had the accommodations that I needed. So that would be double time all testing or note takers, if I needed note takers in a class. So they did an incredible job, like they had a whole Braille lab that would print Braille books and provide books in PDF format. So the accommodations that I needed as a person who was blind were integrated in to the whole college experience. So that was incredibly powerful for me as a person who had just become blind and didn't know what resources were available.   Michael Hingson ** 26:37 Did you have any major challenges and major issues in terms of dealing with blindness and so on, while you're at ASU,   Laura Bratton ** 26:44 not at all. I am so grateful for that, because I wasn't the only person on campus who was blind. I wasn't the first blind person. I certainly wasn't the last so because they had so much experience, it was, it was an incredible, again, empowerment for me, because on the emotional perspective, it taught me, and literally practically showed me, yes, I give me a person with a disability and be integrated into the world, because They they showed me the resources that were available. So I was deeply, deeply grateful for what they taught me. Now, where did you grow up? So I grew up in South Carolina,   Michael Hingson ** 27:31 so that is and that's why I wanted to ask that, because we hadn't mentioned that you were from South Carolina before, but that was a major undertaking. Then to go all the way across country to go to ASU, yes. On the other hand, they do have a pretty good football team.   Laura Bratton ** 27:49 Just say Right, right, right   Michael Hingson ** 27:52 now, my I went to University California, Irvine. I don't even know. I'm sure they must have some sort of a football team today, but they do have a pretty good basketball team, and I haven't heard whether they won the Big West, but I haven't Yeah, but I haven't heard that they did. So I'm afraid that that they may not have until going to march madness. Yeah, but whatever,   Laura Bratton ** 28:21 team for March Madness spell your bracket in a different way.   Michael Hingson ** 28:25 Well, they've been in the big dance before they got to the Sweet 16 once, which was pretty cool. Wow, that's impressive. Yeah, that was pretty cool. That's so cool. What did your parents think of you going across country   Laura Bratton ** 28:42 again? Just like you talked about your parents being that taking that leap, they were incredibly supportive, because they knew ASU would provide the resources that I needed. Because again, in those years as I'm losing a major part of my sight, we didn't know other people who are blind. We didn't know what resources were available. Obviously, my parents reach out to people around us, you know, to connect with people who are blind, to learn about that, but we didn't have a lot of experience with that. So what we knew, and what my parents were excited about was ASU would be a place that I can not only have that college experience, but be taught the resources. And one of the major resources was my disability coordinator, so my disability coordinator, who was in charge of of creating all my accommodations, she was also blind, and that was such a healing experience for me, because she became a mentor. She was blind since birth. She. And so obviously we had different experiences, where I was just newly blind. She had been blind, but still, she was an incredibly powerful resource and mentor of just telling me, teaching me, not just telling me through her words, but living through her actions, you still have a full life like you're you're still a few a full human like you. This life still goes on. So she just modeled that in the way that she lived. So she she was, I'm so grateful for her mentorship, because she was very real. She had minimized blindness. But also she told me and taught me and showed me there's still a full, great life ahead,   Michael Hingson ** 30:53 which is really what all of us are trying to get the world to understand. Blindness isn't the end of the world. It's not the problem   Laura Bratton ** 31:02 exactly, exactly, she literally modeled that,   Michael Hingson ** 31:06 yeah, which was pretty cool. Well, then where did you go to get your Masters of divinity?   Laura Bratton ** 31:11 So then I went to get my masters at Princeton Theological Seminary, and that was a completely different experience, because, where as you, was completely set up for people with disabilities in the master's program, they had not had someone come through their program who was blind. So in that experience, I had to advocate and be very, very clear on what my needs were, meaning what the accommodations were that I needed, and then advocate that to the administration, which that wasn't a gift, because ASU had given me the foundation of knowing what I needed, what the accommodations Were then available. And then Princeton gave me the opportunity to become my own advocate, to force me to speak up and say, These are my needs, and these are accommodations I have. With these accommodations, I can be an equal student, so I'm not asking, Hey, give me good grades because I'm blind, but make the accommodation so that I have my books and PDF so I have double time on the test. So that was just as healing and just as powerful, because it gave me the opportunity to advocate and become clear on my needs so that I could communicate those needs. So   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 this is part of Princeton in New Jersey. Yes, so you were were in Jersey for a while, huh? Yes,   Laura Bratton ** 32:45 I went from sunny weather to   Michael Hingson ** 32:50 snowy weather. Well, you had some of that in South Carolina too, though,   Laura Bratton ** 32:53 yes, true, but from undergrad, it was quite the change.   Michael Hingson ** 32:58 Ah. But the real question is, when you were in New Jersey. Did you get to meet any members of the family? You know what I'm saying, the mob, Oh yes, absolutely being bada. Boom. Come on now,   Laura Bratton ** 33:11 definitely, definitely, definitely, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, lot of local restaurants and Oh yes,   Michael Hingson ** 33:21 oh yes. When we were building our home in New Jersey, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and we decided that when we went to New Jersey, because I was going to be working in the city New York, we wanted to build a house, because it's cheaper to build an accessible home for somebody in a wheelchair. My wife then it is to buy a house and modify it so we wanted to build. And it turns out that the person who financed the building, we got a mortgage and all that without any difficulty, but we had to get somebody to build the house. And the realtors had people they worked with, the financier. Part of that was from a guy, well, let's just say his main business was, he was in the garbage business, and his last name was, was Pinto. So, you know, let's just say we know where he got his money. You know,   Laura Bratton ** 34:18 yes, yes. I had several those experiences too. Yeah, the garbage business seems to be big in Jersey. It   Michael Hingson ** 34:25 is big in Jersey, but, but, you know, but they were all, they were all very nice to us good. And so it really worked out well. It did. It all worked out. We had a wonderful home. The only difference between our house and the others around us is we had to include an elevator in the house, okay? Because we couldn't have a ranch style home. There wasn't room, and so we had to have and all the other homes in the development were two story homes, okay, but we had to have an elevator. So that was essentially about a $15,000 An uplift over what the House would have cost otherwise. But right again, you build it in so it's not that huge of a deal,   Laura Bratton ** 35:06 right? That's perfect. So all your neighbors are jealous.   Michael Hingson ** 35:10 Well, they didn't have the elevator. They didn't come and ride it much. So they didn't ask for their their their bigger challenges were, who's giving the biggest party at Christmas or Halloween? So we didn't participate in that, so we weren't we weren't a problem.   35:28 That's great,   Michael Hingson ** 35:30 yeah, so you've talked about grit a couple times, so tell me about grit, because clearly that's important to you,   Laura Bratton ** 35:39 yeah? So it's so important to me, because that was a main source of empowerment. So just as I talked about that negativity in the middle school high school, what grit helped me to do is take the overwhelming future that I was so fearful, I was extremely anxious as I looked at the whole picture everything ahead of me. So the grit came in and taught me. Grit is taking it day by day, moment by moment, step by step. So rather than looking at the whole picture and getting overwhelmed, the power of grit taught me all I need to do is trust myself for this next hour. All I need to do is trust in the support that my parents are giving me this next day. So breaking it down into manageable goals was the strength of the grit. So to break it down, rather than the whole future,   Michael Hingson ** 36:49 I didn't ask, do you did you have any siblings? Do you have any siblings?   Laura Bratton ** 36:53 Yeah, so I have one older brother. Okay, so   Michael Hingson ** 36:57 how was he with you being that you were blind. Was he a good older protective brother who never let anybody near his sister?   Laura Bratton ** 37:06 He was a good older protective brother in that he did exactly what my parents did in not having different expectations. Yeah, he so he's five years older. So when I'm 14, losing a significant amount of vision, or 15, losing a certain amount of division. He, you know, was 1920 doing great in college. So a perfect example of this connects with the grit he, he taught me, and again, not in word, not so much in words, but again, in those actions of we will figure this out. We don't know the resources that are available. We don't know exactly what the future looks like, but we as a family will figure this out. Me, as your older brother, our parents being our parents, we will figure it out day by day, step by step. And I remember a lot of people would ask my parents, what's her future, and then even ask my brother, what's her future? What's she gonna do? And they would honestly answer, we don't know, but as a family, we'll figure it out, and we'll provide the strength that she needs, and that's what I mean by the grit. So it wasn't, this is her future, and they just, you know, named it for being home with us, right? But it was, I don't know, but day by day, we'll have the grit to figure it out. So I'm glad you asked about my siblings, because that's a perfect example of how that grit came into play and was such a powerful source of strength.   Michael Hingson ** 38:54 So what did you do after you got your master's degree?   Laura Bratton ** 38:58 So after I got my master's degree, I then did a residency, just like I was talking about the chaplaincy. I did a residency specifically in chaplaincy to to complete that process of being a chaplain. So in that that was a year long process, and in that process, that was an incredible experience, because, again, it taught me, you are a complete human with gifts and talents. You just happen to be blind and need specific accommodations because of the blindness. So what I mean by that is, just as ASU gave me the resources regarding blindness, and just as Princeton gave me the gift to advocate for those resources, the experience in the chaplaincy taught me when I walked into a high. Hospital room and introduced myself as the chaplain on the unit. The patient didn't know, or didn't care how long I had been blind, or how did I make it on the unit? Or how did I know they wanted chaplain? They didn't care. They were just thankful and glad that I was there to serve them and be in that Chaplain role. So it was that's why it was empowering of healing to me, because it taught me not to focus so much on the blindness, but to view myself as that whole person, especially in that professional experience, so I can give endless examples of specifically how that, how, just the patient reaction taught me so much.   Michael Hingson ** 40:49 Where did you do your chaplaincy?   Laura Bratton ** 40:52 I did it at the Clinton clinic in Ohio. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 40:56 my goodness, you did move around. Now. What got you there? Speaking of snow in the winter, yeah,   Laura Bratton ** 41:02 literally, I Yes, I can talk about that. And a lot of experiences there with snow, like effect snow is real. So they were very strong in their chaplaincy program and developing Kaplan's and also their Kaplan Z training was a focus that I wanted that holistic mind, body, spirit. It wasn't just spiritual or wasn't just psychological, it was the holistic experience of a whole person. So how wanting that to be my focus moving forward, that's where I chose to go to be able to focus on that. So again, it was such an incredible source of of healing through just through those patient interactions.   Michael Hingson ** 41:58 Well, one of the things that is clear about you is you're not bitter about any of the things that have happened, and that, in reality, you are a person who appreciates and understands the concept of gratitude.   Laura Bratton ** 42:11 Yes, yes. And specifically, let me go back to those high school days, and then I'll come back to the chaplain days, the way of the gratitude my focus started was not because I wanted gratitude, not because I chose to woke up, wake up one day and say, Oh, I'm so grateful for this blindness. But it all came through a mentor who said to me in those high school days, Laura, I want you to start writing down three things that you are grateful for each day and every day, I want you to write down three things that you're grateful for. So in my mind, my immediate reaction as a teenager, high schooler, was that's not good advice. I'm not sure you're a good mentor. I'm experiencing a major change in life, permanent life event. I don't know that there's a lot to be grateful for. So in my stubbornness, I said, Okay, I'm going to prove her wrong. So I started to think of the three things each day I was grateful for. And over the weeks that I did this, I then realized what she was teaching me, she was showing me. She wasn't asking me to be grateful for the blindness. She was asking me to recognize the gifts that the support that I had within the blindness. So, for example, the supportive parents, the older brother, who didn't make accommodations, or I mean, did make accommodations. Didn't lower expectations because of the blindness. So fast forward to the chaplaincy. I was incredibly grateful for all those patient experiences, because, again, it taught me to view myself as the whole person, not so hyper focused on the blindness. So one specific example that sticks out and was so clear to me is one day I had a patient request that one to see a chaplain, and I went in to this specific unit, and the so I walked in, my walked into the room, the patient took a look at my guide dog and me, and said, You're blind, like completely with this question or voice. And my thought was, well, I think so. I mean, that was this morning when I woke up, and so I said, Yes. And she said, Okay, then I'll, I'll share honestly with you how I'm doing and what I had learned, what I learned after my visit with her is she would not open up to the doctors, the nurses, the social workers, anyone who walked in the room. When I walked in the room and she didn't feel like she was being judged on her physical appearance, she was willing to open up and honestly share how she was feeling emotionally with her physical diagnosis. So that led that one conversation led to multiple visits where she could move forward in her healing emotionally because she was willing to open up and share and be honest with me as the chaplain. So that was an incredible situation of gratitude, because it taught me, yes, this is hard, yes, this is stressful. Yes, there are moments of being overwhelmed, and also their deep, deep moments that I am incredibly grateful for, that other people who are side sighted don't have that opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 46:36 One of the things that I talk about and think about as life goes on, is we've talked about all the accommodations and the things that you needed to get in order to be able to function. What we and most everyone, takes for granted is it's the same for sighted people. You know, we invented the electric light bulb for sighted people. We invented windows so they can look out. Yes, we invent so many things, and we provide them so that sighted people can function right. And that's why I say, in large part, blindness isn't the problem, because the reality is, we can make accommodations. We can create and do create alternatives to what people who can see right choose, and that's important for, I think, everyone to learn. So what did you do after your year of chaplaincy?   Laura Bratton ** 47:39 So after my year of chaplaincy, after that incredible experience of just offering the patient care, I completed the part of the well after assorted in the master's program. But then after that, also completed my ordination in the Methodist Church. So I was appointed. I went to the process the ordination process, and then I was appointed to a local church back here in South Carolina. And again, with my focus on chaplaincy, my focus on patient care, I was appointed to that church for because what they needed most in the pastor the leader, was that emphasis on the pastoral care the mind, body, spirit connection. So as I became pastor, I was able to continue that role of what I was doing in the Kaplan see, of using both my professional experience as well as my personal experience of providing spiritual care to the members. So that was an incredible way. And again, that gratitude, it just I was so grateful that I could use those gifts of pastoral care, of chaplaincy to benefit others, to be a strength to others. Again, is that that whole person that that we   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 are now? Are you still doing that today? Or what are you doing   Laura Bratton ** 49:16 now? So I'm still I'm still there part time, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 49:21 and when you're not there, what are you doing?   Laura Bratton ** 49:23 I'm doing professional speaking, and it's all centered around my passion for that again, came when I was at Princeton, when I was doing the focus on chaplaincy, I became so passionate about the speaking to share my personal experience of the change I experienced, and also to empower others as they experience change, so not to be stuck in that. Negativity like we talked about in those middle school, high school days, but rather that everybody, regardless of the situation, could experience change, acknowledge it, and move forward with that balance of grit and gratitude. So that's my deep passion for and the reason for the speaking is to share that grit gratitude, as we all experience change.   Michael Hingson ** 50:26 So what made you decide to begin to do public speaking that what? What was the sort of the moment or the the inspiration that brought that about,   Laura Bratton ** 50:40 just that deep desire to share the resource that I'd experienced. So as I received so much support from family and community, is I had received that support of learning how to use the grit in the change, and then as I received the sport support of how to use the gratitude in the change, the reason for this, speaking and what made me so passionate, was to be able to empower others to also use this resource. So I didn't just want to say, okay, it worked for me, and so I'll just keep this to myself, but rather to use that as a source and empowerment and say, Hey, this has been really, really difficult, and here's how I can use the difficulty to empower others to support others.   Michael Hingson ** 51:31 So how's that working for you?   Laura Bratton ** 51:34 Great. I love, love, love supporting others as they go through that change. Because again, it comes back to the blindness. Is not not all we focus on, it's not all we think about, it's not all we talk about, it's not all we do, but being able to use that as a shrink to empower others. So just speaking to different organizations as they're going through change, and working with them speaking on that. How can they specifically apply the grit, the gratitude? How does that? What does that look like, practically, in their organization, in their situation? So I love it, because it takes the most difficult thing that I've been through, and turns it around to empower others.   Michael Hingson ** 52:24 What do you think about the concept that so many people talk about regarding public speaking, that, Oh, I couldn't be a public speaker. I don't want to be up in front of people. I'm afraid of it, and it's one of the top fears that we constantly hear people in society have that is being a public speaker. What do you think about that?   Laura Bratton ** 52:47 So two, two perspectives have helped me to process that fault, because you're right. People literally say that to me every day. How do you do that? I could never do that. I hear that every single day, all day, and what I've learned is when I focus on, yes, maybe it is the large audience, but focusing on I'm speaking to each person individually, and I'm speaking. I'm not just speaking to them, but I was speaking to serve them, to help again, that empowerment, to provide empowerment. So what I think about that is I don't focus on, oh my gosh. What are they going to think of me? I'm scared up here. Rather to have that mindset of, I'm here to share my life experiences so that they can be served and empowered to continue forward. So just shifting the mindset from fear to support fear to strength, that's that's how I view that concept of I could never do that, or that's my worst fear.   Michael Hingson ** 54:01 So a lot of people would say it takes a lot of courage to do what you do, what? How do you define courageous or being courageous?   Laura Bratton ** 54:08 Great question. That's a working, work in progress. So far, what I've learned over the years and again, this is a process. Not there wasn't just one moment where I said, Okay, now I'm courageous, and I'm courageous forever, or this is the moment that made me courageous, but how I understand it and how I process it now is for me and my experience courage is accepting and acknowledging the reality and then choosing to move forward with the grit, choosing to move forward with the gratitude. So holding both intention, both can be true, both I can acknowledge. Okay, this is difficult. Cult, and also I can also believe and know. I can have the grit moment by moment by moment. I can have the gratitude moment by moment by moment. So for me, courage is holding both intention the reality and what I mean by both is the reality of the blindness and reality of the frustration of people's faults, judgments. You know all that you can't do this. How can you do that without sight holding all of that at the same time as I have the support I need to move forward? So for me, Courage looks like acknowledging why I'm overwhelmed and then choosing at that same time to move forward with the support that I have. Mm, hmm. So again, that's what I mean by it's not just like one moment that, oh yeah, I'm gonna be courageous now forever, there's certainly a moment so I don't feel courageous, and that's okay. That's part of garbage. Just acknowledging that frustration and also choosing to move forward. So it's doing both it at the same time.   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 We live in a world today where there is a lot of change going on, yes, and some for the good, some not for the good, and and all sorts of things. Actually, I was reading an article this morning about Michael Connolly, the mystery writer who, for four decades, has written mystery books. He's lived in Los Angeles. He had a wonderful house, and everything changed when the fires hit and he lost his home and all that. But he continues to to move forward. But what advice would you give? What kinds of things do you say to people who are undergoing change or experiencing change?   Laura Bratton ** 56:52 I'm so glad you asked that, because I I didn't mention this in the grit so much of the grit that I experienced. So the advice I would give, or practically, what I do with someone that just what I did right before our we connected, was being being that grit for someone going through change. So in that, for example, in that speaking when I'm speaking to a group about the change they're experiencing, acknowledging, for them to acknowledge, let me be your grit. You might be overwhelmed. You might be incredibly fearful and overwhelmed by the future, by the task in front of you. So let me be the example of grit to to show you that there is support, there is courage, there is that foundation to be able to move forward. So that's my first advice, is just allowing others to be your grit when you don't feel like you had it, because, again, in those high school days and and even now days when I don't feel like I have any grit, any courage, and yet, I'll lean on the courage, the strength, the grit, of those around me so once they acknowledge and allow me to be their grit, and they their support through that change, then allowing them to slowly have that grit for themselves, and again reminding them, it's not an instant process. It's not an instant do these three steps and you'll have grit forever. But it's a continual process of grit and gratitude that leads us through the change, through the difficulty.   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 Have you used the technique that that person that you talked about earlier in high school used when she asked you to write down every day three things that you were grateful for?   Laura Bratton ** 58:56 Yes, absolutely, and the the funny part of that, what that makes me laugh is a lot of people have the exact same reaction I had when I present it to them. They immediately say, I'm not going to do that. That's no Why would I do that? They immediately think that is a horrible piece of advice. And how can I recommend? And I just, I don't say, Oh, well, just try it anyway. I just say, Well, okay, just try it and see. Just, just prove me wrong. And just like my experience, they try it and then a week or two days like, oh, that actually worked. I didn't think that would so, yeah, I'm so glad you said that, because that happens a lot. People said that is that doesn't make sense. Why are you telling me to be grateful in the midst of this overwhelming situation? So yes, great, great perspective that happens all the time.   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 Well, we've been doing this now for about an hour, but before we wrap up, do you. Have any other advice that you want to pass on for people who are dealing with change or fearing change in their lives right now,   Laura Bratton ** 1:00:08 the advice would be, take it step by step, moment by moment, rather than trying to navigate through the whole change at one time that's overwhelming, and that that's not the process that is most healing. So to trust in yourself, to trust that grit around you, and then just like, like you were saying, and ask me, and it doesn't seem like it'll work, but try the gratitude, try that three things every day you're grateful for, and just see what happens as you navigate through the change. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:52 And it really does work, which is the point?   Laura Bratton ** 1:00:54 Which is the point? Right? Right? We don't think it's going to but it, it totally does   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:59 well. Laura, I want to thank you for being with us. This has been absolutely wonderful and fun, and I hope that people who listen got and who watch it got a lot out of it. And you, you provided a lot of good expectation setting for people. And you, you've certainly lived a full life. We didn't mention we got us before you we we sign off. You're also an author,   Laura Bratton ** 1:01:24 yes. So I wrote harnessing courage again, just like the reason I speak, I was so passionate about taking the grit and the gratitude that I use that was such a source of Empower for me, I wanted to tell my story and tell it through the perspective of grit and gratitude so that other people could also use it as a resource. So the book tells my story of becoming blind and adapting and moving forward, but through the complete expected perspective of the gratitude, how I didn't believe the gratitude would work, how I struggled with thinking, Oh, the gratitude is ridiculous. That's never going to be source of empowerment. Yet it was so. The purpose of the book, my hope, my goal for the book, is that people can read it and take away those resources as they face their own change their own challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:30 And when did you write it? So I wrote   Laura Bratton ** 1:02:33 it in it was published in 2016 Okay, so it that that definitely was, was my goal and passion, and that just writing the book was incredibly healing. Was like a great source of strength. Cool,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:50 well, I hope people will get it. Do you do any coaching today or   Laura Bratton ** 1:02:54 Yes, so I do coaching as well as the speaking so the the one on one coaching, as people are experiencing difficult, difficult or just navigating through change, I do the one on one coaching as well as the speaking,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:11 which is certainly a good thing that chaplaincy taught you. Yes, 100% Well, thank you again for being here, and I want to thank all of you for being with us today, wherever you are. We would appreciate it. I would definitely appreciate it. If when you can, you go to wherever you're listening to or watching the podcast and give us a five star review. We absolutely value your reviews. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, and I'm sure Laura would. So you're welcome to email me at Michael, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear your thoughts. And also, of course, as I said, we'd love your your five star reviews, wherever you're listening. Also, if any of you, Laura, including you, have any thoughts of others who we ought to have on this podcast, we're always looking for more guests, and we really would appreciate it if you'd let anyone know who might be a good guest in your mind, that they can reach out or email me, and I'll reach out, but we really would appreciate that. But again, Laura, I just want to thank you one more time for being here and for taking all this time with us today.   Laura Bratton ** 1:04:27 Thank you for the opportunity, and thank you for hosting this podcast. Incredibly powerful and we all need to be reminded   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:37 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

We've got a special guest on the pod today! Louis from Sparkloop joins to share how they evolved from referrals to recommendations and sold to Kit!

Kiera talks with Chief Operations Manager Jeff and Dr. Andrew Sugg of Green Park Dentistry about identifying your dreams as dental leaders, and finding the path to get there. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today is such a special magical day on the podcast. I have two of my absolute favorite human beings. We have known each other for so many years. They are incredible, incredible dentists, practice owners, managers, like you name it. These two men are some of the most brilliant people I've watched in dentistry and I've watched them grow from beginning, very basics.   to this masterpiece of their life, of their community, of this practice that I truly think is such an example in this world. So Jeff and Andrew, welcome to the show. How are you today?   Jeff & Andrew (00:33) Great, thank you for having us. Doing well, thank you for having us.   Kiera Dent (00:37) You're so welcome. And I know it'll get a little weird, because when there's three of us here, it's always like, who's supposed to talk? So I'll try really hard to just call someone out. But honestly, guys, how does it feel to be, and I'll ask Jeff first. So again, I'll just riff through this. How does it feel from when we first met to where you are today? How does it feel? What would you even say? What's a word? Or what's the expression of where you started to where you are today? How was that experience for you, Jeff?   Jeff & Andrew (00:42) Yeah.   ⁓ if I had to sum it up in a word, looking back at myself in this experience, I think my younger self would look at today and be astonished that one, this is the career path I'm in that I didn't set out to. ⁓ you know, two, I started in this dental industry with zero experience other than knowing Andrew and listening to what he talks about when he comes home, to today.   that we have gone from a team of seven in this tiny building with five ops we started with to now a team of 20, 17 ops in a 16,000 square foot building. I literally cannot, I have to pinch myself being like, we did this, take a minute, let's reflect. I'm still kind of coming down from all of the renovation and the moving and calibration. ⁓   So every now and then I have to remind myself like, wait, this is our place, we did this. So take a minute and reflect. And I'm still kind of battling with that because I'm used to going full force. So I'm astonished.   Kiera Dent (02:16) It's amazing.   And Jeff, I'm so glad you said that. we've known each other. Jeff and Andrew have been clients of ours for years. This is like a client spotlight where we bring on people to just, I think, share their journey, share their experience. And for me to have like a proud mama moment of just being so freaking proud of where you are. And I agree, I'm astonished. It's not something when I met you too that I thought, would it be capable? But I do think it's all for all of us, like a pinch me moment. And for me,   What I love is seeing my favorite humans just flourish. And I feel like you guys give back to your team, you give back to your community. You're the good guys that I always want to win. And so I'm your biggest raving fan over here. Yes, have the life, have the experiences, do the things because you're just amazing humans that are contributing so much to this world. So I love that. Andrew, want to hear, and also Jeff, always you should just love Andrew so much and the fact that he brought you into dentistry. Welcome to the best profession ever. So kudos on that, Andrew.   Jeff & Andrew (03:07) ⁓ huh. Yes.   Thank you.   Kiera Dent (03:12) What about for you? How's this journey been from where you started? You and Jeff, think it's like adorable. Jeff literally had no clue. I remember Jeff, you're like, I don't even know what these things.   Jeff & Andrew (03:20) That's exactly what I was going to say. Like Andrew brought me and I was like, Hi, Kiera, I'm Jeff. And I don't know what I'm doing and I think I need your help. So I do have to throw in a kudos, a super thank you for guiding me and helping me get to this place. So yeah, you guys really helped kind of us.   Kiera Dent (03:32) my gosh, I   can't take the huge credit. Tiffany has been like the mass superstar for you guys. I've been able to be the proud mom on the side that's just freaking rooting for you all day long. But yes, I do remember definitely like, hi, your adorable glasses. Like you guys were just like dressed in white I think the night I met you and hi guys, super nice to meet you. So, Andrew, didn't mean to cut you off, go ahead.   Jeff & Andrew (03:47) No, it's okay.   I think that's it though, is you guys have really helped bridge that like my clinical side and love of dentistry and what I've always really enjoyed and still geek out over all the time. And you helped pull Jeff in and help him understand how he can kind of make this what he wanted to be. And I think that was something that kind of stuck with us ever since we first met y'all was that was on that weekend that we heard was   Like if you're not happy in your office, there's one person to blame and it's you, right? So it's like, you have the power, you have the energy, the time to put into that and kind of make it what you want. And I guess that's where like, my word would be excited. Cause I do feel like the more that we lean in and kind of just trust our gut and do the things that we kind of really want to do, it becomes more fun. We kind of are instilling in our team what you've instilled in us to kind of take that leadership and   work towards their goals and find their secret secrets that kind of stand out and really make them shine. And I think it's just, it's been really fulfilling and really exciting for us.   Kiera Dent (04:57) That's amazing. And I think for both of you, I remember, I feel like there was a pivotal moment. I don't know what year it was, but I feel like there was a moment where you both just hunkered down of what do want our life to look like? What do we want our practice to be? What do we this to look like? And I feel like that was your, I call them lightning bolt moments. And I feel like it was just like, from there, I feel like that's where momentum just skyrocketed for you. And I don't know if you guys remember that from persons on the outside looking in.   That's something that I really watched, but I'm just curious, like, did you feel that way? I'll start with Andrew first on this one. Did you feel that way? And if you did, like, okay, give me the thumbs up or like, yes, did you feel that way? That's question one. Let me be a better host here. Andrew, did you feel that that was something that changed for you guys in your practice?   Jeff & Andrew (05:37) Yes, no, I definitely did. it is hard though for me to put pinpoint. I think I had to lean into trusting having Jeff here and having you guys help him. It just allowed me to really focus and be that dreamer that I am. I'm definitely the dreamer. He's the implementer. So I think you helped us to find roles and understand kind of where we really can help each other, you know, kind of reach those goals together. So.   Yeah, I don't know the day or time, but I definitely felt like it was soon after meeting you guys and we just really felt like, okay, we can do this. it just, yeah, it's just magical. ⁓   Kiera Dent (06:14) It's truly magical. Thank you. Jeff, what about for you?   Jeff & Andrew (06:18) Yeah, ⁓ I remember several moments and I think a lot of ⁓ it was like a light bulb. I remember it was, you know, the career change and all that. It was hard for me, you know, going from the scientific, you know, yeah, marine geology, marine geophysics, so like offshore to now dealing with people.   Kiera Dent (06:22) you   Is it geology? Am I like making that up?   Jeff & Andrew (06:43) you patients, the public, it was crazy. I don't know what world I was in. But then I realized, you know, I was coming into the office. I am not enjoying coming into the office. I'm not enjoying this. And I started to see, you know, you know, at the time we called it staff or employees. And it was like that. Why are we doing what we're doing? Right. So you guys helped me realize that I'm the catalyst to change. We are. ⁓ And   Kiera Dent (06:43) Yeah.   It's real!   Jeff & Andrew (07:11) We had past experience of being treated poorly or maybe unfairly or just feeling unfulfilled. And I started to realize we're in this industry that I'm not enjoying going to work, so nobody else is enjoying going to work. Who can change it? That's me. And then I started to notice that it felt like people in their roles and their careers within the office felt unfulfilled or underappreciated. And it's like a dental assistant isn't just a dental assistant.   do the work that the dentist to allow the dentist to do his job. So without that, it's essential. So why don't we treat them like essential? So there was that moment that I walked into that door and I had you and Tiffany in my ear like, come in with a different energy, present differently. And I did, and I remember that moment. And I remember seeing people be like, whoa, this is a little different. Like, this could be a fun day. And I'm like, this is going to be a fun.   career. And then that started, okay, how can I make people's roles more fulfilling? How can we create growth opportunity? How can we show them that there's opportunity in our practice and they have the power to grasp that, to have a fulfilling life? We go to work every day for eight hours or longer, you know, so if they're not fulfilled there, how are we serving the people that are serving us?   Kiera Dent (08:38) That's incredible. And I think Jeff, this just highlights a lot of your leadership and like the growth I've seen in you. I remember Cranky Jeff, who did not enjoy going to the wards. Like, what is it? Yeah.   Jeff & Andrew (08:45) They call him Gilbert, that's my middle name. So that's   the ⁓ alias for Cranky Jeff.   Kiera Dent (08:53) like it. Yeah, I do remember those days and you were not happy in this and I don't think Andrew was super happy. Andrew, you've always been like one of the most passionate dentists I've ever met, which is so fun to see you like light up when you talk about dentistry and do all the pieces. Jeff, on the other hand, I think you kind of like drug him into this like, Hey, I need you in here. Gilbert, it sounds like was the one that and then Jeff came to the scene realizing like the the space for you and Jeff, that's something I really love to highlight is I think so many leaders don't realize it's within them.   Jeff & Andrew (09:01) you   Yeah.   Kiera Dent (09:21) because it doesn't look the way that they thought it was going to be. I just I'm excited to get into that. And I'm just curious. So you briefly mentioned you guys had this small practice in my mind. It's like purple or pink walls. Is that really true? Like inside?   Jeff & Andrew (09:33) It started   that way. It was like very dark green, brown, had purple. Yes, there was some magenta. Yeah. Yes. Very dark brown. Popcorn ceiling too. ⁓   Kiera Dent (09:39) knew it. It was like a dollhouse in my mind. Like it was like this like little like very short like ceilings. ⁓   Yes, not that great.   I remember being like, Tiff, this is where they work. Like, okay, looks like this. Like, I mean, how could you not have fun, Jeff? There's like colors of every rainbow on all the walls for you. Like, okay. ⁓ but you guys went from this small building to now this massive practice. You've got all these team members. but something I, I'm probably going to like butcher your vision just a little bit. but I remember hearing it when you said it and it stuck with me again. I think I'll get like the gist of it, but I remember you saying like, we are going to be like,   Jeff & Andrew (09:51) Yeah.   Yeah, yeah.   Kiera Dent (10:17) the dentist that the community chooses. Something like that. don't know how, I feel like I'm close to it, but I really loved that it was like, okay, we're gonna impact our community really largely. We want to be the place that our community chooses. And you did this whole expansion and I'm just curious, like, okay, what worked well? What didn't work well? What were like, let's just kind of go on like a fun road. I'm not gonna pick who like you guys can tag team over there, but I'm just curious of.   You went from Gilbert Jeff, who's angry to this like weird house that you're in to now this like amazing business building community. Like the impact you guys have in your community is amazing. You have all these team members. Like what were the highlights? were the like walk me through? I need to know what did you do right? What did you wish you would have done? What advice do you have for other people looking to go down this journey? That's something I think you've done so well.   but I think like it didn't come without a lot of learning and a lot of growth that I'd love you guys to just highlight. But also you did some things really freaking well too, so highlight that too. So ⁓ it's over to both of you, whomever wants to pick up the ball and run with it, it's yours. And tag team, because I'm sure both of you have very different perspectives on how that took place.   Jeff & Andrew (11:23) Well,   I can start because I think one thing for me that's been really amazing is like, really, you guys helped be our cheerleaders to say like, hey, if you stick with these things, you stick with these systems, it's really allowed us to kind of be ourselves. And in a way, that's what feels unreal. Like it feels really magical that like we get to be ourselves every day. We get to stick to like what our core values are. And it feels lucky that people appreciate that. And that shouldn't be like.   rare in the world today, but it really does feel that way. So I feel really lucky to come to work. I feel lucky. get to be honest and authentic with the people around me. And I think ⁓ that's been like the biggest, coolest thing to me, like through all of this is I think having you all as cheerleaders, I was really like the biggest thing because you move into this building and increase in our team size is kind of like, that happening? And then I'm like, I'm going to go do the dentistry. You, you guys figure it out and you're like, yeah, we're to hire some people.   Kiera Dent (12:17) Andrew's always pushing it off like, Jeff, I'm gonna   go do this, like good luck on all the fires. No wonder you a good one. I'll put it.   Jeff & Andrew (12:19) Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, can you stop being   the dreamer for like a year? need a break. Stop dreaming. Come down for second. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. would say so, you know, kind of piggybacking off what we touched on earlier with elevating the team and that sort of thing. So when we did that, was kind of like positivity just keeps.   Kiera Dent (12:26) He just can't stop. That's amazing.   Jeff & Andrew (12:46) building, right? It's contagious. People want to be around it. People like it. They want to feel that way. So we did some work internally with the team and then we realized the team likes it. You know, this is real, you know? So then that immediately transfers to the patients and then to the community. So there's kind of like the little trickle effect there. So when patients start to come in and they're like, this is kind of fun. Everybody enjoys their job. I enjoy coming here. ⁓   or when I walk in, I feel happy, you know? It's like, that's the vibe we wanted and that Andrew and Dr. Parks, their dental work is exceptional. So pair it with that. And then the word gets out and it just continues to snowball. So as that's happening, we're like, maybe we should expand. Okay, so I think we can take on somebody else. Then we were, the plans kind of evolved and there was the first plan was to ⁓ double the size of the building that we were in.   Um, but then COVID hit. pre COVID we're like, we're going to do this. Let's plan it. We've got enough land to double the building. Let's get all this done. We actually used our waiting room as an extra spare room because we are kind of outgrowing our space. So business was getting bigger, but the project was not moving along at all. So we cut into the waiting room and we made six rooms and we're like, can we sustain this? Yes. We sustained it immediately. So, um,   Kiera Dent (14:04) Yeah.   Clever.   Jeff & Andrew (14:14) After COVID hit, said, shoot, what are we going to do? Like, we can't afford this expansion anymore. And then what does the timeline look like that just went out the window? we're like, let's pivot. If we were going to spend X amount of dollars here for this, it ended up being ⁓ about 2000 workable square feet that we would add to the practice. ⁓ So we started looking at, there buildings for sale around? And we kind of had a vision a long time ago.   Kiera Dent (14:37) Mm-hmm.   Jeff & Andrew (14:45) even before considering moving the practice itself, like there's some cool buildings in our community that could look beautiful. ⁓ So maybe we look into some of those ugly ones and that's what we end up doing. So we identified a building that was way bigger than what we needed. ⁓ However, the thing that we identified was the plumbing was around the exterior between the levels. So we thought that's super expensive.   Kiera Dent (14:58) Hahaha   art.   Jeff & Andrew (15:13) you know, ground up. So let's utilize some of this plumbing. We interviewed ⁓ several contractors. We chose one to do the original project expanding that building, but we chose another for this project because of our interview. So it took ⁓ a lot of back and forth to figure out who's going to work best with us and who's really going to build in some cost savings. Like with the building that we did buy,   We made sure that the contractor that we hired was going to retain as much material as they could. We had solid doors. like, save the doors. We'll paint them or reuse them. I don't want to buy a ton of new doors. we were able, the relationship started well. It ended well also, but that was the building blocks. Like, are you going to work with me or are you going to be like, let's tear it down and start fresh to make a buck? ⁓   Kiera Dent (15:53) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Jeff & Andrew (16:07) So that was a huge win. So we made a really good relationship with the contractor there. And then ⁓ he guided us through. And I think, you know, in the planning stage, architecture and engineering took a lot. And those were, ⁓ those were really the holdup, pretty much the engineer. So I would say stress on the engineering part first, because it's hard to make changes later, just because they don't typically work as fast, I guess.   Kiera Dent (16:33) for sure.   That's true. ⁓   Jeff & Andrew (16:36) takes longer, or in our case it was.   But ⁓ I mean, it might seem like you're being redundant about layout and switches and these sort of things. ⁓ It's not. Visit the practice as many times as you can while it's in construction. Talk to everybody on a day-to-day basis. I popped in here so many times and was like, I don't like where that light is, or people don't always listen. it...   stinks to be like, hey, I prepared all this stuff and this is what I want done. This is where I want everything and nobody looks at it. So it's like, you got to be there in person and kind of guide them. ⁓   Yeah, well, I also kind of I think you kind of point out like to make is ⁓ we really stuck to like our our goals and just ambition and just knowing that like, hey, we're just doing good things. And we're just trying to do good for the community. And like, how can we expand? And it was scary at times expansion. It was always very scary till we got here. Like we say, jokingly, when we were at the old building and we come over here, even bringing the staff, you could tell everybody's like, what the heck, this place is really big. We're going to lose each other like   Kiera Dent (17:36) As always.   Jeff & Andrew (17:46) We're not going to hear in our old office, I could hear our front desk and I could actually like tell them like, actually don't do that. You know, like I can correct people from like the room, you know, down the hallway and here it is a lot more space, but it's like, once we got here, we're like, how the heck did we all fit there? And then you just quickly fill the space and it's really, it's exciting. Cause yeah, I don't know. ⁓ you just gotta really like trust in, ⁓ your, process and your values and what you're working towards. And I do feel like it has been.   Kiera Dent (17:46) Hmm?   Jeff & Andrew (18:15) building up, like we're going to celebrate our 10th year in practice next year. And I think that's what feels unreal. Oh my God, it's this year. next year. Yeah. Next year. Sorry. Oh, year. Yeah. Oh, see? Don't even know. We need a break. But it just flies by, right? Like it's just... Yeah, we celebrate every year. For sure. And I think that is like, it is just kind of in a way, you just kind of stick to like little goals, kind of just keep it moving those like, hey, how can we make this better? What can we do? Oh, we need space. How do we solve that problem?   Kiera Dent (18:26) I don't know, it's just not dirty. Pop this celebration all the years. ⁓   Jeff & Andrew (18:43) and necessity just helped kind of push us along. And yeah, I think if we would have done the building before COVID, we probably would still be in our old office and kind of wishing we had more space. But in a weird way, I'm really happy that things worked out the way they did. ⁓ yeah, we've ended up here. So it's been amazing. I'd say on a team perspective too, like the team was really scared to be honest, like moving over here. There were concerns. ⁓ But... ⁓   Kiera Dent (18:58) always.   Jeff & Andrew (19:10) You know, when we said it first, were like, we're do, we're, we're going to do this instead. And they were like, Oh, so I think keeping them regularly informed and kind of showing them the things that we're doing. like, we made them a part of the process so they could be excited about it. We took them to visit when milestones were done. We'd like, Hey, meet over there. We'll, we'll talk about it. Um, we kept them involved in the process. And I mean, we we weren't like financially open about all of the things, but it was nice to be able to like, listen, we've got to buy.   cabinets and cabinets cost this much money. You know what I mean? So ⁓ we could do it, but we have to do this. So we want to take care of it too. So it instilled value and it's still excitement. And then helping, you know, getting votes on like color choices or that sort of thing involved them. And then before the move, they were really nervous about what it was going to be like in a space as large bringing on new team members. So with the help from y'all Tiffany, we   Kiera Dent (19:42) Yeah, yeah. huh.   Jeff & Andrew (20:08) We were like, okay, everybody write down what the specific concerns are. And then we're going to talk about how we're going to combat that. ⁓ So we're going to prep you with like the solution before a problem even occurs. And that was, that was helpful. And then we did move in one weekend, long weekend ourselves with some movers. It was crazy. And everybody pitched in and everybody just had fun doing it. And it was Labor Day weekend, so we had an extra day. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (20:20) So smart.   Amazing.   You're like, okay, we'll do it. I mean, Labor Day seems very fitting. It's labor, it's very intensive.   Jeff & Andrew (20:41) I know, right?   Yeah. But we didn't require anybody. like, hey, we're doing this. Like nobody's required to, but if you want to, we would love it and we'll make it fun. And it was good. then like, what, less than a month after we got slammed at the hurricane in North Carolina, the mountain. So that was a hurdle. We had a generator that was took the longest to get in the last thing installed. One the expensive things we bought and they didn't hook it up. Because the gas inspection.   Kiera Dent (20:49) and   Shoot. Uh-huh.   Thank   Jeff & Andrew (21:11) So double check your inspections, make sure the gas inspection is ⁓ like.   Kiera Dent (21:14) Yes.   Yeah, make sure   it's actually all prepped for in case of hurricane. But like, kudos to you guys. Like, I'm so proud of you and to hear, I love the two different perspectives. And I think something I hear is you are true to yourselves. want like, knowing that you want to be, like I said, I probably like butchered your vision just a little bit. Sorry on that. Like being the dentist that the community chooses and being the place that we can serve them. Well, you can only serve so many patients in six ops, which is like a makeshift six op. We were like five, realistically five and a half. So,   Jeff & Andrew (21:21) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (21:48) It's like, it's not like, if you build them, they will come. You guys already knew you had made this footprint. You knew what you wanted to do. I feel like you guys really hunkered in. You're like, we're going to be a part of this community. This is where we want to be. We want to change the lives of our employees. And I feel like in doing so, I think that almost gave you the, the steam. It's not like something I really love about both of you is on paper, you guys have really sexy numbers that I'm always like, love having them as clients. Like great job over there.   Jeff & Andrew (22:14) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (22:15) But as   human beings, mean, right? As a consultant, you're like, all right, like, look at my perfect, like, model students over here. Well, you guys are one of them. And I'm really proud of the numbers you put up, and I'm proud of the dentistry you do. But the piece is you grew because you wanted to for the impact. You didn't grow for the ego associated with it. And I think that that's so paramount because I think that that's why you guys still are happy. I think that's why you love coming to work.   going through that mayhem, if it's not your passion project, if it's not something you really want to do to serve and to give back and to have a bigger vision beyond the dollar signs, I think the dollar signs for you were secondary and the community and the impact was number one. And I think that's why, like, of course you got to pay for it. I mean, there's no doubt about that. I mean, maybe you guys are truly children of like the billionaires and who knows what world and I didn't know that about you. I'm pretty confident you're not yourself made of where you are over there, but like.   Jeff & Andrew (23:01) No. ⁓   Kiera Dent (23:06) Looking at that, feel like that's a huge probably differentiator of your success because it was built from passion, love, and a desire to give back while also being incredibly good. Like Andrew, you're an amazing clinician. And I think that having, like you said, Jeff, top-notch dentistry, Jeff, you're amazing at building this culture and this community of people that love and serve. I think combine that together, then want to give it back to your community. I feel like your success was inevitable and I'm just really proud of you. And Jeff, to hear about going to the inspections, I'm like, yeah, good for you because   How annoying is it when you walk in, like my husband and when we were building our house, they were gonna put our huge AC unit on the one side of our house that I could actually put like planter boxes and have stairs. And I was like, why don't we just move this over here? My husband tells me all the time, like, Kiera, that was one of your best moves. And I'm like, yes, because the function and the flow, like it would have been all of our neighbors. Where do you think their AC unit is? Right in the middle of the only usable space on the side of the house and they all put it. And I'm like, you're welcome. Or like little things like, like all of it.   Jeff & Andrew (23:56) Yeah, everything. Yeah. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (24:03) And so   just like making it a space that you wanna be in that you're proud of, I just really love and like hearing, I mean, you had an obstacle right after you started and I think some people could have gotten really down, but it's like, no, we built something bigger. It's not like a burn and churn. You guys wanna be there for the long haul. You want this to be a place you're proud of and I think that that just bleeds through. So I'm really proud of you and thanks for sharing that journey. And I wanna pivot to highlight both of you just a smidge because Andrew, I think you do something really special.   and you're able to mentor doctors really well. And I think that this is something that not all dentists are able to do. And Jeff, you're more than welcome to chime in on anything. Like at this point, guys, you should compliment one another. mean, hello, let me just make your life even better for you. But Andrew, can you walk us through, what do you feel are some of the things you do so superior? Like, I want you to brag a little bit. This is a moment where Kiera Dent is so freaking proud of you. Tiff is proud of you. Our company is proud of you. ⁓   because I think other people want to know how to do this. So I almost want to peel back the curtain just a little bit on what are some of the things you do really well in assembly? Like I said, Jeff, chime in too. Then we're going to reverse. We're going to talk about Jeff and Andrew, you can chime in on him. So like both of you can just schmooze each other tonight as well. You guys are going to have an amazing night post podcast. You're welcome. All right. But truly, Andrew, what are some of the things you feel set in part?   Jeff & Andrew (25:11) Yeah, thank you.   Well,   that leads into a great, was going to say, like, I feel really lucky to have Jeff, obviously. And I know not everybody has a Jeff or can trust someone as much as I trust Jeff. But I think obviously it can be very hard on our marriage. So that's one side note. And I know like a lot of couples that that happens. But I think I have to always. Right? know. Two years ago, I was worried. And in gay years, that's like 40 years.   Kiera Dent (25:38) I'm so proud of you. 10 years in and you still, I think, love each other, which is amazing. I think   everybody is. You're like, okay. But it's one of those things also though, I will say, like throwing it out to couples, when couples go through what you have gone through and you're able to like be through the thick and the thin of it, I will also give advice. Like when I watched people go through dental school, and Andrew, I'm sure you saw this, I was so angry at so many of our like friends that went through.   Jeff & Andrew (25:52) you   Kiera Dent (26:05) Like they went through the residencies, they got to the end and I'm like, you freaking made it. And that's when they get divorced. And I'm like, Oh, if you're to get divorced, get divorced during the hard times, but like you have made it. You've made it. And now it's like, it's a matter of like, we bonded together, we grew together. And I think like making sure that stays a priority in your marriage. You guys remember I was a marriage and finally therapist prior to this. Like that was my thing. I like, Oh, don't give up on what you like. You went through the freaking hardest years together. Now it's like, enjoy this amazing life we built together.   Jeff & Andrew (26:10) Yeah.   Right, yeah. All right.   Yeah.   Yeah   Kiera Dent (26:35) and don't lose sight of how grateful we are for one another. anyway, like off my   I hope all of you see the potential within yourselves and ⁓ I'd love to be a part of your story and your journey. So reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on The Dental Team A Podcast.  

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight's show is June 19th. We are all connected. We are talking with Asian and Asian American Children's book authors. PowerLeeGirls host Miko Lee talks with Chi Thai and Livia Blackburne about the power of storytelling, maternal heritage, generational trauma, and much more. Title:  We Are All Connected Show Transcripts Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:01:17] Welcome to Apex Express. Tonight's show is June 19th. We are all connected. We are talking with Asian and Asian American Children's book authors. PowerLeeGirls host Miko Lee talks with Chi Thai and Livia Blackburne about the power of storytelling, maternal heritage, generational trauma, and much more. First, we want to start by wishing everyone a happy Juneteenth, Juneteenth commemorates, an end to slavery and the emancipation of Black Americans after the Civil War. In 1865, 2 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, enslaved people in Galveston, Texas finally learned of their freedom. Juneteenth marks the day the last enslaved people learned of their freedom. Though outright slavery became illegal, the systematic oppression of African Americans continues to this day. We see that show up in almost every aspect of American culture, from the high rate of infant mortality to the over punishing of Black children in schools, to police brutality, to incarceration. We must continue to recognize the importance of championing Black lives and lifting up Black voices. We are all connected. June 19th is also an important day in Asian American history. In 1982 in Detroit, Vincent Chin was at a bar celebrating his bachelor party prior to his wedding the next day. Ronald Ebens, a white auto worker, and his stepson Michael Nitz taunted Vincent with racial epithets. They thought he was Japanese and were angry about the Japanese rise in the auto industry. When Vincent left the bar later, the two men attacked and killed Vincent with a baseball bat. He was 27 years old. Ronald Ebens never did time for this murder. Ronald Ebens is 85 years old now. Ebens not only skirted prosecution, he has used bankruptcy and homesteading laws in Nevada to avoid a wrongful death civil suit settlement. Ordered by the court in 1987 to pay $1.5 million to Chin's family, the Chin estate has received nothing. Lily Chin, Vincent's mom could have stayed silent about the racist attack on her son. Instead she spoke out. She took a courageous stance to highlight this most painful moment in her life. In doing so, she helped ignite a new generation of Asian American activists working for civil rights and social justice. We find ourselves in a new wave of activism as our communities band together to work against the injustices of the current regime. And what does this have to do with children's books? It is all connected. We highlight children's books by Asian and Asian American authors because we want our next generation of children to know and appreciate their own heritage. We want them to proudly represent who they are so that they can work in solidarity with other peoples. Our struggle is interwoven. As Grace Lee Boggs said, “History is a story not only of the past, but of the future.” Thank you for joining us on apex express. Enjoy the show.   Miko Lee: [00:04:24] First off. Let's take a listen to one of Byron Au Young's compositions called “Know Your Rights” This is part of the trilogy of the Activist Songbook. This multi-lingual rap, give steps to know what to do when ICE officers come to your door.    MUSIC   That was “Know Your Rights” performed by Jason Chu with lyrics by Aaron Jeffries and composed by Byron Au Yong Welcome, Chi Thai to Apex Express.    Chi Thai: [00:07:13] Hello. I'm really happy to be joining you, Miko.  Miko Lee: [00:07:16] I'm really happy to meet you and learn about you as an artist, as a filmmaker, as a children's book author. And I wanna first start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Chi Thai: [00:07:30] Ooh, what a great question. You know what? I love being asked stuff that hasn't been asked kind of before. I mean, there's a kinda really kinda natural answer to that, which is, you know, family are my people. Of course. 100%. And certainly, you know, the reason why I'm talking to you today, you know, in regard to the, to the book, you know, it's about my family's journey. But I found, and I don't know if this is. Somewhat to do with, you know, being a child of two cultures and you know, being a child of the diaspora that you really have to kind of find your own family too. 'cause I suppose I grew up feeling, I didn't quite relate to maybe my parents in a way that, you know, you normally would if you weren't part of the diaspora. And I felt estranged from my birth country and I didn't really feel like British either a lot of the time. So in terms of like, who are my people? I've gathered those people as I've kind of grown up and it's, it's a kind of strange feeling too. I feel like it's taken me a really long to grow up and to figure out who I am. And I suppose that's why, you know, the people that I have a really, a lot of people that have come, kinda later in my life, I actually have no friends in my childhood as an example of that. I've had to kind of find these people as I've grown up, but it's taken me a long time to grow up because growing up in the UK there wasn't any literature to read about what it was like to be Asian. And British, to be a refugee and things like that. So it just took me longer and I then, as a result, it just took me longer to find my tribe. but I have it now, but it's still work in progress. That was a very convoluted answer. I'm very sorry Miko.    Miko Lee: [00:09:15] No, it wasn't. No worries. It's fine. And what legacy do you carry with you?   Chi Thai: [00:09:19] Kind of an extension to that answer, I think when you're an artist, practicing your voice, figuring out your voice, can take a while. And I think I've only really started maybe the last like five to 10 years at the most really figured out what I want my legacy to be. The things I wanna talk about are really about s tories from the diaspora, certainly, and about community and healing. These are the things I think that are really important to me, especially when we talk about maybe coming from struggle. I don't feel it's enough to be an artist today and just talk about struggle. I want to talk about justice as well. And justice really is about healing, you know?    Miko Lee: [00:10:00] Oh, that's beautiful. Can you talk a little bit more about that healing and what that means to you and how that shows up in your work?    Chi Thai: [00:10:07] A couple years ago, no, not even that long ago, I produced a, a feature film. This is probably the best example for it, but I produced a feature film called Raging Grace, which we called it Horror with a small H and it. Basically took the story of what it was like to be, undocumented Filipina in the uk who was also a mother. And I think if that film had been made 10 years ago, it would just shown how hard her life was, and unrelentingly. So, and I think the reason why Raising Grace is so special is it goes beyond the trauma, it takes us to a place of justice, of being able to speak out for someone who has felt invisible, to be visible for someone who's not. Had a voice, to have a voice and to begin that kind of healing process of sticking up for herself, making a change transforming herself from maybe the good immigrant to the bad immigrant and things like that. I think that's a really great example and I think I read a really wonderful thing. It might have been in a Guardian article where we, so a lot of my work is around, inclusion representation of like diasporic stories. And I think when you have, when you exist in the poverty of like representation, I. the solution to that is plentitude. I think that Viet Thanh Nguyen probably said that, so I don't wanna take credit for it. He comes up with so many wonderful things, and that's a wonderful thing to be able to move from poverty, like to plentitude and that be the solution, is kinda really wonderful. So I enjoy being really prolific. I enjoy supporting artists to be able to do their work. So as a community, we can also be prolific and I wanna support, narratives that. Take us beyond a place of struggle and trauma to a place of like healing and justice and so forth.    Miko Lee: [00:11:57] Your work crosses so many genres. You were just mentioning how that film was kind of a horror film and, and then you've done these kind of dreamy animation pieces and then now this children's book. Do you select the genre and the format and the medium, or does it select you?   Chi Thai: [00:12:16] Oh, I think the story chooses it. I like 100% believe that. I just actually was thinking about this 'cause I was doing an interview on something else, people, often ask about the creative process and I, can only speak for my own. But usually when I get an idea for a story, the general shape of it comes almost like really well formed. There's a sense of a lready kinda what genre it'll be. There's a sense of the character, there's a sense of the journey and all these things. I felt the same about, writing The Endless Sea I knew it would be from the voice of a child. This probably sounds like my creative process is terrible, but it was just. This is how it was going to be. That kind of part was writing itself, or at least I feel that it'd been writing itself like that in my subconscious for many, many years before it kind of surfacing and writing. Like the writing bit is just the tip of the iceberg at the end of the day. there wasn't like a kind of decision about that. the story in that sense was quite intact. So I often feel like the story is demanding something about kind genre and for, for Raging Grace 'cause I've talked about this a lot, not just in listen to me, but other things. But we always said like if you are an an undocumented person, every breath you take is taken in a hostile environment. It's so natural for it to be a horror. So there's not a sense that you kinda decide that it's like that is the very reality of someone who's going, you know, that's their lived experience. And if you're going to represent that truthfully, it will be through the prism of horror. And I suppose that's how I think about genre. the story is kind of telling you what it needs to tell its emotional truth. and I felt that way, with The Endless Sea same thing with the Raging Grace, with Lullaby. And I think you talked about The Promise, I suppose I, with The Promise, which is an adaptation I had less choice about that because that was a book and it was a adapted into an animation. I've heard Nicola, who's the author of the book, talk about that and she talks about like the story coming to her in a dream and tiptoeing down her arm coming onto the page, she like describes it really beautifully. so maybe our processes are the same. It feels that way. there's not long deliberations. I mean, that's not to say the writing process isn't difficult. It is. But that, I've never found the, [genre] the difficulty or the bit that's required a lot of, I don't know soul searching with it.    Miko Lee: [00:14:28] So with that being said, how did Endless Sea your latest children's book? How did that tiptoe into your imagination?    Chi Thai: [00:14:36] This is a strange one because this is probably the closest thing to like, almost autobiographical work. What I can say is like, it's the true story o f how I and my family, which would've been at the time my mom and dad, my older sister, me, how we fled Vietnam after the fall of an Saigon. we actually left quite late we left in 1979 w hen things were tr were getting truly, truly, truly, quite terrible. And, this was very much a last resort. I think my parents would try to make things work, but realized that they couldn't. This journey that we took on these, boats that were made badly, made poorly, that many of which sank has become almost like the genesis story of our family. It's like it's a big, it has a long shadow, right? Ever since you know I, it is like the first story that I can remember. It's one of the few stories my mom would tell me again and again when we, when they see their old friends, it's something they talk about. So it's something that has happened to it to us, but it's such a big thing that it's just, echoed In my life growing up, as I've you know, got older and older, and the wonderful thing about having a story kinda live with you eventually it's in your blood and in your bones, but also if it's a thing that's kinda shared with you again and again, you actually build up this, there's something about the repetition of it, and then every time you hear it told from an uncle or a family friend or from your mom, a new little detail is embroidered that someone adds. So I've kinda lived with this story for 40 plus years and I've been collecting all these little things about it all this time and all that time it was, I think, kind of just writing itself, you know? You know, it was doing all that work before I actually put like pen to paper. Um, yeah.    Miko Lee: [00:16:31] Was there a catalyst or something that made you actually put the pen to paper?   Chi Thai: [00:16:36] That's really interesting. You know, I probably don't mind it is probably something really banal like. I think I probably wrote it during Covid and I had more time. Um, I think there are probably be some bigger forces in place. And you know what, I can tell you what it is actually if I'm, I'm forcing myself to think and examine a bit closer so when this is totally true. So I remember hearing the news about Viet Thanh Nguyen win winning the Pulitzer for The Sympathizer. And it made such a mark on me and I kind of felt, wow, someone from our community has achieved this incredible thing. And I thought, why? Why now? Like, and I was like, well, you know what? It's probably taken our community certain amount of time to come of age, to develop not just the abilities to write, to create, to make art, but also to have possibly the relationships or networks in place to be able to then make the art and get it out into the world. And I kind of felt when he was able to do that and came of age, I kind of felt there was going to be like other people from the kind of diasporic Vietnamese community that would also start to flourish. And that made me feel really good. About probably being a bit older than the average kind of artist, like making their, kinda like their pieces and everything and saying, you know what? My time can be now. It's okay. And I just find it just really inspiring that, you know our community was kind of growing, growing up, coming of age and being able to do these, these things And I kind of felt like it had given me the permission, I suppose the, the confidence to go, “Oh this story that I've been carrying my whole life, which I don't really see a version of out there I can write that and now I can write it and I'm the right person to write it.” And I had just done The Promise so I had a relationship with Walker. I was like, I have a, you know, a relationship with the publisher. I feel my writing is matured. Like I can do this. And so it was like a culmination and, you know, convergence of those things. And, but I do remember having that thought thinking, “This is a good time to be alive in our community 'cause we're actually able to make our art and get it out there now.” I, I felt it was like a real watershed moment really.   Miko Lee: [00:19:11] What made you decide to do it in this format as a Little Kid's Children's Illustrated book? We were talking earlier about how to, to me, this is the first more realistic version of a boat people experience in a very little kid's voice. What made you decide to do it in this style?    Chi Thai: [00:19:33] So interesting. At the same time, I was writing The Endless Sea. I was writing also the script for a short film, which is called Lullaby, which is takes an incident that happened on my boat but expresses it as a film, as a little kinda horror kinda drama, but a kid cannot watch that. It's like too terrifying. Um, and I wrote, you know, The Endless Sea at the same time. And again, I can't, it's really hard for me to articulate. I just knew it was gonna be a kid's book, like, and I knew it'd be written from the voice of a kid, and I didn't actually, can I say I didn't even ascribe a particular kind of value to that. It wasn't until I had started conversations with the publisher they're like, you know, we see like there's a really high, like this is really great that it's written in the voice of the kid. It somehow gives it something else. Something more is something kind of special. I didn't set out to like, overthink, like what was the most effective way to tell this story? I, I think I just told the story as honestly as I could, you know, with the words that I felt that, you know, I had in me to de, you know, to describe it. In the most authentic way to, to me. And like I say, at the same time, I knew, like I knew that was a kid's book. There was another part of that I wanted to express that was really important to me and that was survivor's guilt. But that I felt was like, that was a horror, so that was really not gonna be suitable for kids. So I was definitely thinking about lots of things to do with the same subject of the same time, but they were definitely being expressed in different ways. And again, Lullaby came to me very kind of quickly, almost fully formed. And I knew, you know, it would be a ghost story. I knew it would be the story of a mother and things like that. And I often maybe, you know, I should, I, I should interrogate more, but I kinda, I take these kinda. These ideas, which are quite well shaped and, and then I just like lean into them more and more and more. But they, the way they arrive it, I've kinda, I, I can see a lot of what is already about to unfold.   Miko Lee: [00:21:43] And do you still dream about that experience of being on the boat as a kid?    Chi Thai: [00:21:52] It's, it's a really difficult thing to explain because you know that that happened now so long ago, and I've probably heard the story thousands of times. I've watched all the terrible Hollywood movies, I've seen all the news clippings, I've watched all the archive. I've listened to, you know, people talk, and I have my own memories and I look at photographs and I have memories of looking at photographs. I feel like, you know, my memory is really unreliable, but what it is instead is it's this, this kind of, kind of tapestry of, you know, of the story of memories, of, you know, images as I grow up of hearing the story, like all coming together. One of the things I did when I wrote, I wrote The Endless Sea, is I then went back to my mom and I did a recorded interview with her 'cause I was really worried about how unreliable my memory might be. And I interviewed her and I asked a lot of questions and I said, and I, it was like, you know, in the way I would've just like listened to the story quite passively before this time I interviewed her and I asked a lot of questions about details and all sorts of things. 'cause I really wanted to be able to represent things, you know, as factually as I could. And that was kinda one of my kinda kind of fact checking kinda exercises I did 'cause I was, I was much quite worried about how unreliable my memory was about it all. And you know, what is, what is a memory of a memory of memory, like, you know, especially when it comes to thinking about that time on the boat and the feelings I had. Yeah. So, you know,    Miko Lee: [00:23:34] and you were so young also to    Chi Thai: [00:23:37] Totally 100%. And sometimes, I don't know, you know, is it a memory of a memory? Is it a dream of a dream?   Miko Lee: [00:23:44] Mm-hmm.    Chi Thai: [00:23:44] Or just some, yeah.   Miko Lee: [00:23:46] Was there anything that your mom said that surprised you?    Chi Thai: [00:23:50] Yeah. Um, she didn't realize how bad it was gonna be and she was like, “God, if it, I'd known how terrifying it was I dunno if I, we could have done it.” I think there's a certain amount of naivety involved and I suppose that surprised me. You know? 'cause we know already now how bad it was. Um, so things like that surprised me.    Miko Lee: [00:24:15] and your mom, the dedication of the book is to your mom. What does she think when she first read it?    Chi Thai: [00:24:22] I've got a funny story. My parents, you know, they, we left, they were in their early twenties and I think it was, you know, the escape was hard for them, but settling in new country was really hard for them. That's. That's been kind of their struggle. They had to work so hard, so many hours to kind of, you know, give us a great life. And, I think a lot of that meant they weren't people that could go out, enjoy, enjoy movies, look at art, read lots of literature and things like that. They're very, very simple, very working class. Simple life or working class kinda life. Very much all about, uh, the work. Um, and I remember when I had a, the publisher had made like a mockup of the book and I gave it to my mum to read 'cause I wanted her to be happy about it too, and she's probably been my toughest critic. I think everything I've done, she hasn't really liked, to be honest. Um, and when I gave her the mockup to read. She went, “Yeah,” but she said it in such a way I knew what she meant was Yeah, that's right. You know, that's the truth. That's the, you know, the book isn't the testimony, but it felt like she was saying yeah. It was like the simple kind of approval. It wasn't like a lot    Miko Lee: [00:25:50] That is the most Asian mom's approval ever.    Chi Thai: [00:25:54] It's so funny, like people say to me, oh Chi, it's such a beautiful book. Oh, the writing so lit, like lyrical. It's stripped back, it's elegant. Like, you know, Viet Thanh Nguyen , like God bless his like consults, gave me a comment to put in the book, said these wonderful things, and my mom goes, “yeah.”. You know, it made me laugh at the time, but I knew what it meant. And I also was old enough, I was mature enough, you know, God, if she'd given me that, if I'd been 20 written that I might have cried and my heart might have broken. Right. But I, I knew I had, I've so much compassion, you know, for my parents. Mm-hmm. And people like my parents, what they've been through and, you know, but    Miko Lee: [00:26:38] That was incredibly high praise for her.    Chi Thai: [00:26:40] It was, I couldn't have asked more.   Miko Lee: [00:26:47] Oh, I totally get that. I think that's such an Asian thing. That is so funny.    Chi Thai: [00:26:53] It is, it is. I didn't feel bad. I, I remember showing her Lullaby, um, and she didn't like it at all.    Miko Lee: [00:27:02] What did she say? What is her not like voice? What did she say to that?    Chi Thai: [00:27:05] Oh, she. Well, firstly, she, well, the, the film is almost silent because basically it tells a story. It's inspired by a mother that was on our boat who lost her baby on the border crossing, and I was very much ever, for as long as I knew about this woman's story, I was like, I was very much haunted by it, and I was haunted by, you know, the fact that that's how she felt and her guilt. Over losing her baby on this journey. And I knew, I knew I wanted to tell her story. 'cause one of the things I feel very strongly about is when you are on the losing side. So I'm from South Vietnam, like that's not the, you know, that's not the story that's told, the story is told of who triumphs at the end of the day. And I was just like all those people that we lost at sea, this mother, her baby. The stories kind of aren't told. So I kind of felt really strongly that this was somehow a very creative way to put down like a, an historical record like this happened. And actually I found out after making the film that five babies were lost in our boat, not just one.   Miko Lee: [00:28:24] Wow. So what did she say, your mom say?   Chi Thai: [00:28:28] Yes. So I made this film, which was for the most part, a silent film. This is a woman that's shut down. She barely speaks anymore. She is living with the guilt ever. You know, when she was on the boat before her baby died, she sang a lullaby, and ever since then, she hasn't been able to speak again. And then we find out that she has been haunted by the ghost of her child that she lost. And then a bit too, you know, to kind of free herself from that. She, she actually sings, you know, the, the film culminates in her singing the Luby one last time. S saying Goodbye finally being able to move beyond her Gild and I Griffin, saying goodbye and hoping she's able to, you know, progress. So I made a film about that was largely silence except for this lullaby, and my mum watched it. She went, next time you make a film, you know you need more words. I was just like, oh, I think my heart probably did crumple off a bit a bit at that point.    Miko Lee: [00:29:30] Aw.    Chi Thai: [00:29:31] You know? Um, but yeah. But yeah, it's okay. It's okay because you know what? My mom doesn't get to see stuff like that very often. So sometimes she doesn't have the wider, and this is why, I mean, like, the life that she's had, you know, hasn't been one where she's been able to surround herself with, oh, I'm so lucky. You know, my life has been so different, but it's been different. Different because of, you know what she's, what she's done for us, so it's okay. I can take it on the chin when she says my film doesn't have enough dialogue in it.    Miko Lee: [00:30:04] I love that. For you, have you had conversations with your mom about your life as an artist, and what are her thoughts on that?   Chi Thai: [00:30:16] Well say. So I, so my mom, I don't really like, you know, she's probably not that into it. I'll be honest about being an artist. I can understand why she wants you to have a good life. And I would say for the most part, being an artist is, is a, is a tough life because it's hard to make, you know, the, the pennies work, right?   Miko Lee: [00:30:44] She wants stability for you, right?    Chi Thai: [00:30:45] Yeah, exactly. But she's made a peace with it. And basically what happened, I think all the best story is gonna be about my mom, right? Is that she basically, I, I, um, I have a partner, we've been together for 15 years. Um, he's a really nice guy and he has a reliable job and we have two kids together and i,    Miko Lee: [00:31:08] So that makes it okay.   Chi Thai: [00:31:10] So yeah, this is what I was saying. So she said to me like. It doesn't really matter what you do now. 'cause she, you are already peaked. You're somebody's wife. We're not married. But she told everyone in Vietnam we were married 'cause she couldn't cope with this not being like having kids out of wedlock. In her head. She's rewritten that we are married. Right. She's like, you are married, you're somebody's wife and you mother, it doesn't get better than that. So if you are an artist or if you're a filmmaker, whatever, it doesn't matter. 'cause nothing can be better than that. Right. So she's accepted on the basis that I've already fulfilled, kind of my promise.   Miko Lee: [00:31:46] Wow. Interesting.    Chi Thai: [00:31:50] And she means that in the nicest possible way.    Miko Lee: [00:31:52] Yeah.    Chi Thai: [00:31:52] That she feels like you have a home, you have stability, you have someone who loves you, you know, you have a, a purpose in life, but really her value, you know, the way, I think, the way she measures my value is like, that's how she looks at it. The, the art is something else.    Miko Lee: [00:32:10] Well, I really appreciate you sharing your art with us in the world and your various, um, genres and styles. And I'm wondering how our audience can find out more about your work. Clearly we'll put links to where people can buy the book and let's see, but how do they find out more about your films?   Chi Thai: [00:32:28] Um, so that like, because it is the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War in 2025. Actually the very anniversary of that is the tomorrow, the 30th, April, right? Um, you can watch Lullaby on Altar, which is a YouTube channel. Um, and I can give you the link for it. Rating Grace is on Paramount Plus if you want to, if you've got Paramount Plus, but you can also buy it from all the usual kind of places too. Um, and you know, and we'll see us from all great book stockists, I imagine in, in the us.   Miko Lee: [00:33:07] Thank you so much. Um, I'd love to get, I'd love for you to send me the link so I could put 'em in the show notes. I really appreciate chatting with you today. Um, is there anything else you'd like to share?    Chi Thai: [00:33:19] Um, no, I think, I think that's good. Your, your questions are so good. Mika, I'm already like, kinda like processing them all. Uh, yes.    Miko Lee: [00:33:30] Well, it was a delight to chat with you and to learn more about your artistic vision, and my wishes are that you continue to grow and feel blessed no matter what your mama says, because deep down, she's still proud of you. Even if she doesn't say it out loud.    Chi Thai: [00:33:47] I believe it. I totally believe it.    Miko Lee: [00:33:50] Yay. Thank you so much for spending time with us on Apex Express.Next up, listen to stay, go from dark heart, a concert narrative by singer and songwriter Golda Sargento.   MUSIC   That was the voice of Golda Sargento from the new Filipino futurism punk rock sci-fi dark heart. Welcome, Livia Blackburne Children's book, author of Nainai's Mountain. Welcome to Apex Express.    Livia Blackburne: [00:38:56] Thank you so much for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:38:58] I wanna start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Livia Blackburne: [00:39:05] I am Chinese American, and so I carry the stories of my grandparents who fled China to Taiwan, fled that war. And I also carry the stories of my parents and myself who immigrated. To America, and I am, I grew up in New Mexico, so I have fond memories of green chili and new Mexican food. I went to college, Harvard and MIT on the east coast. So I've got a bit of that kind of ivory tower. And now I'm in LA and, you know, my people are, my family and my community, the writing community here. So I, I'm a big mix. Yes.    Miko Lee: [00:39:44] What legacy do you carry with you?    Livia Blackburne: [00:39:47] I mentioned a bit of my grandparents and my parents. What they went through in the war in China, and then my parents and me coming here. the experience of being here in two worlds, coming from Taiwan having that cultural background and also, growing up in the United States. The culture I've been surrounded with here as well.    Miko Lee: [00:40:06] Thank you so much for sharing. Can you tell us about your new illustrated children's book? Nainai's Mountain. What inspired this work?    Livia Blackburne: [00:40:14] The story of this book actually started with another book that is coming out in a couple years that actually I can't share too much about. My grandparents fled the war in China and then my. Parents grew up in Taiwan and I wanted to preserve that family story. My parents are getting older. So I started doing oral interviews with my parents about their childhood, what it was like, growing up. I wouldn't say they weren't refugees in Taiwan. It's a very complicated political situation, but they were transplants to Taiwan, and what it was like growing up there, their daily life. What kind of things they did when they were a child, their pastimes, I wanted to preserve their stories and I got a lot of great material., A lot of that is going into a novel that I'm currently working on. But also as I worked on it, there were so many great details that I thought would be really good in a picture book as well. Also, I'm a mother now. I have an 8-year-old daughter, and she is half Caucasian, half Asian. She has never gone to Taiwan before and I. As I'm writing this, I'm thinking, it would be really great to, I do want to share Taiwan and, my own childhood, home with her at some point. And so I start imagining what would it be like to bring her back to Taiwan and show her everything. And that became the seed for Nainai's Mountain, which is a. Story of a girl visiting Taiwan for the first time with her grandmother. And her grandmother shows her around and tells her stories about her childhood, and the girl through her grandmother's eyes, sees Taiwan, you know, for the beautiful place that it is.    Miko Lee: [00:41:56] You also wrote the book I Dream of Popo. How are these companions to each other and also for audiences that might not speak Chinese. One is a grandmother on the mother's side, and the other is the grandmother on the father's side. Can you talk about how I dream of Popo is linked to Nainai's Mountain?   Livia Blackburne: [00:42:15] Thank you for pointing that out. Yes. So Popo is maternal grandmother, and Nainai is a paternal grandmother. And that is a fantastic question. So I dream of popo is kind of my story. So it's about a little girl who moves from Taiwan , to the United States and it's about her relationship with her grandmother who stays in Taiwan. And it talks about, how a close relationship, navigating long geographical distances about the language barrier that comes up. And that was very much me, Nainai's Mountain. It's kind of like Popo in reverse, you know, it's now it's someone going back to Taiwan and kind of getting in touch with those roots. That, as I mentioned, that's inspired by my daughter. And you'll see in Nainai's Mountain, I specified that the child should be, half Asian, half Caucasian. Because, I wanted more of that representation in the children's literature.    Miko Lee: [00:43:07] Thank you. I, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the artistic style. So you are the author, but you had different illustrators for both of the books and the style is really different. The in, when I look at Nainai's Mountain, which I'm holding here, it's sort of collage and really vibrant colors. Where I Dream of Popo has a different, more. I'm almost realistic, kind of look to it. And I'm wondering what your process was like in collaborating with illustrators.    Livia Blackburne: [00:43:37] That's one of the best things about being a picture book author, is that you get to collaborate with so many illustrators and they all have such different styles, such different visions. Most of the time it's the publisher who chooses the illustrator, although they. Consult me usually. My editor for I Dream of Popo picked Julia Kuo. And she sent me samples and I loved it. And, it was great. I'm friends with Julia now and that book did really well. It was very well known, especially in kind of Taiwanese American, Asian American circles. And so when I did, Nainai's mountain, that was with a different publishing house and my editor. He very consciously said, you know, because it's also a book about Taiwan and a grandmother. We don't want to get it confused with I dream of Popo. So, we made a conscious decision to pick an artist with a very different style and Joey Chou is fantastic. He's very well known for his Disney art. You can see his art in a lot of the hotels and cruise ships. And, he, very bright, vibrant, and I, he's also from Taiwan. I think he did a fantastic job.   Miko Lee: [00:44:41] And have the artistic work ever surprised you as being really different from your imagination while you were writing?    Livia Blackburne: [00:44:48] That's a great question. I don't think they've ever surprised me. By being different. They surprised me in the specifics that they've chosen. For example, I dream of Popo. Julia, spent a lot of time in Taiwan and she put in these great, Taiwan details that, you know, if you're from Taiwan, you would know for sure. There's like a specific brand of rice cooker called the rice cooker, and she has one there and like the giant bag of rice in the corner, and the calendar on the wall.   Miko Lee: [00:45:16] Even the specificities of the food and the trays and everything is quite lovely.    Livia Blackburne: [00:45:20] Yeah, yeah. You know, every time I read that, I look at that spread, I get hungry. So surprise there. And, with Joey, I, I love how he does the different, there's kind of flashback pictures and there's, pictures now and. The thing about him, his color, I just love the color that he put in from the greens, of Taiwan to kind of the bright fluorescent lights, neon lights of Taipei, and then there's kind of the slight sepia tones of the past and he just, you know, brings it so to life so well.   Miko Lee: [00:45:49] I didn't know he was a Disney animator, but it totally makes sense because it feels very layered. It does feel animated in a way and kind of alive. So I appreciate that.   Livia Blackburne: [00:45:59] I'm not sure. If he's an animator. He does a lot of art for the theme parks and like products and the cruise ships and stuff. I'm not sure.    Miko Lee: [00:46:07] Oh, interesting.   Livia Blackburne: [00:46:07] He does like movies and  stuff.    Miko Lee: [00:46:08] Interesting. It looks like animation though. Your book.    Livia Blackburne: [00:46:13] It does look very, yeah. Lively. Mm-hmm.    Miko Lee: [00:46:16] That I'm looking forward to that series. That would be so cute. The grandmother series as a whole little mini series traveling to different places. can you tell us about your new book, Dreams to Ashes? Has that been released yet?   Livia Blackburne: [00:46:29] Dreams to Ashes? That has been released that, released about a month before Nainai's Mountain. Yeah, that one's quite a bit different. So that one is a nonfiction book and it's a picture book, and it's about the Los Angeles massacre of 1871. Whenever people, I tell people about that, they're like, wait, you wrote a picture book about a massacre? Which is slightly counterintuitive. So I never knew about the Los Angeles massacre growing up. And, and, given that I am a Chinese person in Los Angeles, that is kind of weird. Basically, it was a race massacre that occurred. One of the biggest mass lynchings in history, uh, where there was a between two rival Chinese organizations and a white bystander was killed. And because of that, , a mob formed and they rounded the Chinese population up basically. And. Blame them for that death. In the end, 18 Chinese men were killed and only one of them were involved in the original gunfight. It was a horrible tragedy. And unfortunately, as often happened with these kind of historical tragedies in our country, nobody was really punished for it. A few men were indicted and convicted, but their convictions were overturned and it just kind of disappeared into history. And it really struck me that, you know, nobody knew about this. I wanted to kind of bring this to light and unfortunately when I was writing it, it was also, during the Covid pandemic and, I was seeing a lot of anti-Asian rhetoric, anti-Asian hate crimes were going up. And I saw so many parallels between what happened. Back then, because, you know, Chinese people specifically were being vilified , they were being called immoral, stealing people's jobs. And you can see in the years before the massacre the newspapers were saying horrible things and, you know, the hate was just becoming very strong and all that exploded one night into an unspeakable tragedy. Unfortunately as an author, you want your work to be relevant, but sometimes you don't want your work to be relevant in this way. Right. Nowadays I'm seeing so much rhetoric again against immigrants and not of many ethnicities. And in some ways I'm sad. That, this is happening now. And I also hope that this book will contribute to the conversation and show how the danger of racism and xenophobia and hate and what, what can happen because of that.   Miko Lee: [00:48:55] So this occurred in the late 1800s, right? Was it before the Chinese Exclusion Act?    Livia Blackburne: [00:49:03] Yes, it was before the Chinese Exclusion Act. So you'd hope that people kinda learn from these things. And it was just kind of one of the, one of the horrible things that happened on the way to the Chinese Exclusion Act and Chinese immigrants being excluded basically Chinese laborers at least.   Miko Lee: [00:49:23] Oh wow. Okay. I'm looking this up now. And 1882 we know was the Chinese Exclusion Act and this incident actually happened in 1871. Yes. A decade beforehand, Helen Zia always talks about these moments that are missing. MIH missing in history and this is clearly another one of, another time of just wiping out a population.I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit more about how Children's Books can make a difference in the world that we're currently living in, where our government is banning books and you know that there's a narratives that they want to align with a certain kind of conservative ideology. Can you talk about the power of being a Children's Book author in this time that we're living in right now? . I'm really thinking about dreams to Ashes and even I dream of Popo and even Nainai's Mountain, which you would think, oh, they're, you, they're visiting their grandparent, their grandmothers, that would not be controversial. But now when even words like inclusion and diversity are threatened and books are being banned, I'm just wondering if you could. Share a little bit more about your superpower as a children's book author?    Livia Blackburne: [00:50:31] Yeah, that's a fantastic question. We live in a time right now, there's, a lot of hate, a lot of intolerance, a lot of fear of different people groups. And a lot of that I think is because people are unfamiliar with people unlike themselves. They see. People who are different, look differently, act differently, speak differently, and it scares them. And I think the best way to get around that is to actually get to know people of other backgrounds, to see them as human. And I think that's where children's books come in. ‘Cause we don't, children are not born. With this hate of the other. They learn it. But, if they grow up being familiar with people of different backgrounds seeing their stories seeing them as, normal human beings, which, should be obvious, but sometimes it's hard, for adults to realize. Then, I'm hoping, as a children's book author that it will lead to a more empathetic world. And perhaps that's why the government sometimes in certain groups are wanting to, censor this and control the flow of children's books because, children are the most their minds are still open. They're still able to learn.    Miko Lee: [00:51:48] And Livia, tell us what you're working on next.   Livia Blackburne: [00:51:53] So right now I am. Working on a historical middle grade. We haven't quite announced it yet, so I can't say the title or too many details, but it is based on my family history of my parents and grandparents who moved from China to Taiwan after the civil War.   Miko Lee: [00:52:12] Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.   The post APEX Express – 6.19.25 We Are All Connected appeared first on KPFA.

Welcome back to the 237th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 237th episode we have a new artist interview. This particular conversation is between our Co-Artistic Producer Ryan Borochovitz and Beatriz Lôbo Campos the Program Manager for the Canada Ireland Foundation. They discuss the recently wrapped the inaugural Bealtaine Theatre Festival, which ran from April 25 to May 25, 2025, the contemporary Irish theatre, the intricacies of programming, and the carnivalesque spirit of seeing weird stuff a theatre festival. Follow the Canada Ireland Foundation – Instagram: @canadairelandfoundation // Website: https://www.canadairelandfoundation.com/ Follow Beatriz – Instagram: @b_looboo Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

As we enter the latter half of Pride Month, we set our sights on a slightly different type of gay relationship, an M/M pairing! I hope you're all ready to continue this tragi-queer adventure with us. You can read Dish Duty by Bandy right here: https://www.fimfiction.net/story/127511/dish-duty

Are you on social media? Of course you are. So follow us!  Twitter: @MemberTheGame Instagram: @MemberTheGame Twitch.tv/MemberTheGame ⁠Youtube.com/RememberTheGame⁠ ⁠Facebook.com/RememberTheGamePodcast⁠ ⁠TikTok.com/@MemberTheGame⁠ And if you want access to hundreds of bonus (ad-free) podcasts, along with multiple new shows EVERY WEEK, consider showing us some love over at Patreon. Subscriptions start at just $3/month, and 5% of our patreon income every month will be donated to our 24 hour Extra-Life charity stream at the end of the year! ⁠Patreon.com/RememberTheGame⁠ And you can find Dan here: Dissect That Film: https://t.co/0ezBBtfu4c ManaWurm: https://t.co/CYEAbxBZP8 It's well known 'round these parts that I adore Mega Man X. But for some reason, I never really gave the first sequel the time of day. And after almost 7 years of podcasts, it's time to right that wrong. I finally played through it and damned if it isn't almost as good as it's older brother. It's the tried and true Mega formula: take down 8 evil robots, steal their weapons, save the world, and die a lot in the process. Like X, it's got those sexy 16-bit graphics, 'Mavericks' instead of robot masters (which are all very fucking cool), and you can still find those Dr. Light chambers to power up with. I think the only thing missing from X2, in my eyes at least, is the nostalgia I have for the first game. And even then, this one holds up just fine. This a great game. My boy Dan from Dissect That Film returns to this week to talk about his favourite MM game in X2. We work through the robot masters, Zero subplot, soundtrack, weapons, and basically just spend an hour fluffing the Blue Bomber. And before we save the world, I put together another edition of the Infamous Intro! This week, someone asks if I think a video game crash is coming? When will I review some more NES movie games? And if I could be one weapon tool, or accessory from a video game, what would I be? (The answer speaks to my character). Plus we play another round of 'Play One, Remake One, Erase One', too! This one features 3 of the finest Mans to ever Mega: Mega Man 2, 3, and 4. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are you on social media? Of course you are. So follow us!  Twitter: @MemberTheGame Instagram: @MemberTheGame Twitch.tv/MemberTheGame ⁠Youtube.com/RememberTheGame⁠ ⁠Facebook.com/RememberTheGamePodcast⁠ ⁠TikTok.com/@MemberTheGame⁠ And if you want access to hundreds of bonus (ad-free) podcasts, along with multiple new shows EVERY WEEK, consider showing us some love over at Patreon. Subscriptions start at just $3/month, and 5% of our patreon income every month will be donated to our 24 hour Extra-Life charity stream at the end of the year! ⁠Patreon.com/RememberTheGame⁠ And you can find Dan here: Dissect That Film: https://t.co/0ezBBtfu4c ManaWurm: https://t.co/CYEAbxBZP8 It's well known 'round these parts that I adore Mega Man X. But for some reason, I never really gave the first sequel the time of day. And after almost 7 years of podcasts, it's time to right that wrong. I finally played through it and damned if it isn't almost as good as it's older brother. It's the tried and true Mega formula: take down 8 evil robots, steal their weapons, save the world, and die a lot in the process. Like X, it's got those sexy 16-bit graphics, 'Mavericks' instead of robot masters (which are all very fucking cool), and you can still find those Dr. Light chambers to power up with. I think the only thing missing from X2, in my eyes at least, is the nostalgia I have for the first game. And even then, this one holds up just fine. This a great game. My boy Dan from Dissect That Film returns to this week to talk about his favourite MM game in X2. We work through the robot masters, Zero subplot, soundtrack, weapons, and basically just spend an hour fluffing the Blue Bomber. And before we save the world, I put together another edition of the Infamous Intro! This week, someone asks if I think a video game crash is coming? When will I review some more NES movie games? And if I could be one weapon tool, or accessory from a video game, what would I be? (The answer speaks to my character). Plus we play another round of 'Play One, Remake One, Erase One', too! This one features 3 of the finest Mans to ever Mega: Mega Man 2, 3, and 4. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A bit of a themed Q&A this week, with some great questions from folks in their 30's. We cover share save schemes at work, large inheritances and retirement planning - yes, even in your 30's! Shownotes: https://meaningfulmoney.tv/QA17  01:29  Question 1 Hi Pete and Roger, First of all I wanted to say I'm a new but avid listener to the MM Podcast, I'm so glad I found it while I'm still (relatively) young,  I'm 39 and after years of making bad financial decisions the MM podcast has turned my attitude to money/investing and pensions on its head. I now relish the challenge of taking care of my finances rather than what felt like years of fighting against it. I wanted to ask a question regarding selling Investments vs taking a short term loan. I work for a large pharmaceutical company and as a perk of being an employee I pay into 2 share schemes through work. The one I'm thinking of selling is a plan whereby I'm limited to a certain amount a month I can pay in and whatever I pay in is matched by my employer, so half the shares in this scheme are free. Needles to say I pay the maximum into this to benefit from the BOGOF offer. I've recently had a large unexpected bill that even my emergency fund can't cover! And I wanted to know if selling the shares would be advisable over getting a 12 month loan? If I sell the shares the money will be paid to me through my next pay so it will be subject to tax and NI contributions, after a bit of number crunching I've worked out that what I'll pay back on the loan is a lot less than the tax and NI I'll pay on the shares, however it does mean being in debt for 12 months, but I'm reluctant to sell the shares as I'd earmarked it as a supplement to my pension. If this was cash sitting in an account then it'd be a no brainer but I'm sure that I've heard people advise against selling investments. Please could you help and offer some advice as I'm really not sure what's best as I do what to avoid debt too. Thanks in advance, Anthony 05:30  Question 2 Hi Pete and Roger Thank you so much for the podcast and content you put out - for free! - it's incredibly generous and has helped thousands of people including myself. I appreciate this is not a typical situation, but I am 30 years old and am due to inherit £500,000 (yes, really, though due to unhappy circumstances). Up until now (in no small part due to your content!) I've been confident managing my finances. I am single, and am just approaching becoming a higher-rate tax-payer as an NHS doctor. It is a stable job with a great pension and guaranteed pay progression. I have a £200,000 mortgage on my house which I am comfortably paying out of my salary. I also have a £10,000 cash emergency fund in place, and no other debt apart from my student loan. Due to the NHS pension (and the complexity of avoiding annual allowance breaches with a SIPP alongside a DB pension), I have favoured directing all my personal savings into my stocks and shares ISA rather than a SIPP, all in a 100% equities passive global tracker (currently about £60,000). I don't know what to do with this inheritance. I will put the first £50,000 in Premium Bonds. After that, I like the simplicity of £20,000 per year into the stocks and shares ISA in a passive global tracker. But in the short-term this still leaves a vast sum in cash. Even if I paid off the mortgage (which I'm unsure about, as I've had plans to spend on house renovations fairly soon), there is still a vast amount of cash left unsheltered. (First-world problems, granted.) I could pay for advice, but I would rather self-manage as I feel I don't want to do anything too complicated if someone could explain a simple strategy using a GIA. Option 1: GIA Is it easy to calculate the dividends on an accumulation global tracker fund? Should I ditch the simplicity of global trackers to find dividend-paying funds/investment trusts to try and pay less tax?  Option 2: Cash Option 3: Holding gilts to maturity Have I missed anything? Does it really matter whether I do Option 1 or 2 in the grand scheme of things? Any thoughts would be much appreciated! Kind regards, James 14:30  Question 3 Hi Pete (and Roge) Thanks for all you have done and continue to do on the podcast. I've now read both your books which I would warmly recommend to anyone. I've tried to keep this brief but tricky not missing out key details! My wife and I are in our mid 30s and have SIPPs invested in passive, 100% global equity, accumulation funds. With a reasonable time horizon, and stomach for volatility, we're very happy with this approach. We would like the option to retire as soon as we reach the Normal Pension Age minus 10years which we assume will be 60 by then if we assume the state pension age will rise to 70. Given this background, how do I pivot away from 100% equities to a cash flow ladder? My current thinking is to do the following: - 10 year prior to retirement buy a Gilt with a 10 year maturity - do this for following years working my way up the cashflow ladder - I would need to plan for what I would do if the market was down at any point during this period - perhaps something like - if down by >10% in a given year only sell enough equities to cover minimum expenses for the applicable year and hope for a recovery. This would seem like a reasonable hedge between being prepared and missing out on a recovery. Does this sound like a reasonable approach? What other approaches could I consider? I appreciate I wouldn't be acting upon this question til about 2039, ahead of retiring in 2049, but I guess that is a testament to how you have helped me with my financial planning. If you think this is too far out for planning when do you think I should revisit it? Thanks, Dave 21:02  Question 4 Dear Pete and Roger, I've been a faithful listener for some time and yours is one of the best financial podcasts in the UK. Thank you for all your hard work. I've recently read Pete's new book. Gosh, it was not a light read but it was extremely valuable to me. My question is whether it is worth stopping contributions to the NHS pension if the money is needed more now rather than in retirement. Me (34yo) and my husband (43yo) are in an incredibly privileged position where we have 800k pounds in our ISAs (majority) and SIPPs  and no debt. I love my NHS job and have no plans to leave it any time soon.  My husband couldn't care less for his work. We figured we would like him to retire soon so we can enjoy benefits of having a stay at home dad at home for our child. The problem is, we cannot live off my salary alone and will have to supplement it. I calculated that if he retired in 3 years we would have 3 years worth of cash to cover the shortfall, 5-6 if I have more take home pay due to not contributing to pension. Basically leaving the NHS pension would give us 2 extra years of not having to draw from our investments but would cost circa 1k of guaranteed annual income in retirement for every year of missed contributions, plus benefits - death in service etc. I just wonder if it is worth it for potential returns which are obviously not guaranteed.  Based on historical returns, allowing our investments to grow for 8 years will bring us to our FI number (25x annual expense). I feel this would be more valuable then having guaranteed income later in life. To me, being able to take out NHS pension in 34 years is completely abstract. I know you cannot give specific financial advise but I would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you in advance, Jane. 29:04  Question 5 Hi Roger and Pete, Love the podcast and have learnt so much! Thank you! I am 34 and have paid into the teacher's pension (TPS) for the last 8 years. For 5 years, I worked abroad and did not contribute to it. Living back in the UK, I am not sure how much longer I will be a teacher or eventually my school might even withdraw from it and offer a private pension instead. Missing 5 years of my pension whilst away, I did a few years whereby I increased my contributions using faster accrual from 1/57th to 1/45th of my salary, however I wasn't convinced this was actually going to make up for my lost contributions. This tax year, I decided to stop this and have now got back £300 a month into my salary. My question is whether I would be best to pay this £300 into a LISA (already have £1500 in there for my pension) or ditch this and pay it into a SIPP. I want to have access to some money if I retire early before I can access my TPS which I can imagine will be 70 by the time I am older. Thanks in advance. Rachel 32:07  Question 6 Hi Pete (and the fabulous Rodge) Me and my husband both listen to your podcast and absolutely love your content. We've gone from not really having a clue to having more than £50k between investments and savings for the first time this month, and we put it all down to you and your excellent advice. The question I have is about raising our children with good money attitudes. You like to say "your attitudes towards money are set by the time you're 7", and that makes me think about my kids, who are currently 1 and 3. Me and my husband are both second children, and couldn't be more different from our older siblings in terms of money attitudes. Both our older siblings are spenders, and both in significant amounts of bad debt, making what we would consider poor financial choices. On the flip side, we are both savers, sometimes to the point of unhelpfulness, and we've had to do a lot of learning about spending money to enjoy ourselves more in the here and now. Obviously, we've had functionally identical upbringings to our siblings, so I'm not sure what's made us so different, but certainly I never remember having any direct advice from my parents of money management, investing, budgeting ETC. What is your advice on imparting finical wisdom to our offspring? How is it different at 3 to aged 7, for example? What about their early/late teenage years and young adulthood? I haven't told my husband I'm submitting a question, but if he hears this he'll definitely know it was from me so I'll look forward to our conversation later based on your answers! All our best Hannah

Codey and Kev go through all the news we missed on our time off. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:53: What Have We Been Up To 00:23:04: I Know What You Released Last Month 00:29:01: Codey’s Wholesome Direct Thoughts 00:34:33: Game Updates 00:48:28: Teased Updates 00:58:06: New Games 01:03:45: Other News 01:08:43: Tangent About Fruit 01:10:00: Outro Links Critter Crops “The Witch Reborn” Update Travellers Rest “Pet Party” Update To Pixelia “Controller Support” Update To Pixelia “Keybinding” Update Lightyear Frontier “Shifting Gears” Update Moonstone Island “Evolutions” Update Sun Haven “2.5” Update Research Story “1.0” Update Seeds of Calamity ConcernedApe Interview Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Codey: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Cody (0:00:36) Kev: And my name is Kevin (0:00:38) Codey: And we’re here today to talk about cottage core games (0:00:42) Kev: Whoo (0:00:44) Codey: Which it just seems like such a (0:00:47) Codey: Time to be talking about cottage core games. It’s nice. It’s nice. It’s cozy (0:00:53) Codey: It’s something that gets your mind off of (0:00:56) Codey: the general (0:00:58) Codey: gestures that world (0:01:01) Codey: And after a bit of a break last week we talked you talked about the wholesome direct correct (0:01:08) Kev: Yeah, I did and we did Al and I was present too. Yes (0:01:14) Codey: And so we have a decent amount of news to get caught up on (0:01:18) Kev: Yeah, non wholesome direct news other news that happened well (0:01:21) Codey: Yeah (0:01:23) Kev: Val was vacationing or no I’m working whatever Isle of Manning. That’s that’s what he does (0:01:29) Codey: isle of manning. Yes. (0:01:32) Kev: Yeah, so they got news (0:01:36) Kev: But yeah, this is a news up so that’s all it’s gonna be (0:01:38) Kev: Really, we don’t we don’t have any game or anything (0:01:40) Kev: But before that (0:01:42) Kev: Cody what has been going on in the world of Cody? Oh wait, you know what? Hold on. Hold on (0:01:47) Kev: Asterisk, let me put a special shout out to our dear friend (0:01:53) Kev: I’m gonna feel like a fool if I’m understood that misunderstood this but (0:01:56) Kev: shout out to our dear friend Aislinn and toast (0:02:00) Kev: she’s (0:02:00) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:02:01) Kev: She’s getting hitched like actually is today if I understood correctly these ceremony (0:02:05) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:02:08) Codey: Correct. (0:02:08) Kev: Recording so congrats to you Aislinn. Whoo. I thought it was next week. I had thought the date but I saw it wrong. Apparently. Oh (0:02:11) Codey: Yeah. (0:02:14) Codey: Well, so it’s tomorrow. (0:02:17) Codey: Her actual hit date is tomorrow. (0:02:19) Kev: Oh, it’s like practice (0:02:21) Codey: The number 16 is very important to her and her partner. (0:02:25) Codey: So they, it will be tomorrow as of, (0:02:29) Codey: but if you are hearing this, she’s a whole ass wife, y’all. (0:02:34) Kev: Yeah, she officially (0:02:37) Kev: Married wife marriage to whatever good for her. So congrats to Aisling. That’s so exciting (0:02:41) Codey: Married human. (0:02:43) Codey: Yeah. (0:02:44) Kev: I can’t wait to see the pictures and the news and all that stuff. Um (0:02:48) Kev: Good stuff (0:02:51) Kev: Okay, so with that that said Cody Cody, what have you been have you gotten married in the last week? (0:02:57) Codey: I unfortunately have not. My ring finger remains empty. But that is something that might happen (0:03:08) Codey: this year. But we’re not like we’re just gonna go do it. Like, so it’s not. Yeah, well, yeah. (0:03:15) Kev: Ah, shotgun wedding? (0:03:19) Codey: So it’s, I don’t know, it’s one of those like, we feel like it, but we just haven’t done (0:03:27) Codey: the place yet. And I don’t know if he’s I think he might be waiting to like, do a special proposal (0:03:28) Kev: Yeah, there you go. (0:03:32) Codey: or whatever, which is a little silly, because we kind of already know it’s gonna happen. But at the (0:03:37) Kev: Mm-hmm. (0:03:38) Codey: same time, like, I’m not gonna say no to being hampered for a moment or something. So, but no, (0:03:45) Codey: so not getting hitched, not getting engaged, none of that I have just been dissertationing and (0:03:50) Codey: dog sitting. So and chickens, chickens are the dog sitting. Yeah. (0:03:52) Kev: And chickens, apparently, you use these. (0:03:57) Codey: So dissertation, I am trying to defend this upcoming fall. So within the next like, (0:04:06) Codey: within the next six months, it’s horrifying. And so I have a lot to get done. And I finally (0:04:13) Codey: got money to hire people. So I have people that are helping me now. And so they I’m like, in the (0:04:22) Codey: lab a lot because I’m getting them to help me. I have people only through (0:04:27) Codey: July so with the in August I’m back to being by myself so these next few (0:04:30) Kev: Oh, oh you gotta squeeze out what you can. Yeah, oh you gotta move on. (0:04:33) Codey: months yeah these next few months are like as much as possible um so I (0:04:40) Codey: haven’t been dog sitting actually that much because I’ve been kind of switching (0:04:43) Codey: into like being on campus but I am dog sitting at this present moment my (0:04:47) Codey: advisor goes on a couple different summer vacations and I always like watch (0:04:53) Codey: his dogs and stay at his house and he also has chickens. (0:04:54) Kev: Mm-hmm. (0:04:57) Codey: the chickens come in he has I think four hens and then he bought seven baby chicks (0:05:06) Kev: okay (0:05:08) Codey: like right before he left one of them did not make it so far but I mean that’s they kind of just do (0:05:09) Kev: Yeah (0:05:12) Kev: No (0:05:15) Codey: that it’s not uncommon for that to happen so about all the other ones are doing great so I had to (0:05:16) Kev: Yeah (0:05:19) Kev: Yeah (0:05:23) Codey: Just kind of check on them and refill their water. (0:05:24) Kev: Can’t great good stuff (0:05:26) Kev: It’s it’s always surprises me how like affordable and easy it is to get into chickens if you have the space for it (0:05:32) Codey: He was like, it was so funny because we were texting about it. And he was like, he was (0:05:39) Codey: doing the whole like, back in my day, they used to be like a dollar each. And now they’re (0:05:44) Codey: $4, I guess. When you buy them, and he was like, it’s just so like, why is it selling? (0:05:45) Kev: Haha, yeah. (0:05:50) Codey: They used to be so much less expensive. And I was like, yeah, 100%. Um, but it’s fun. (0:05:52) Kev: Well, general gestures at the world, I guess. (0:06:00) Codey: So that I’ve also been doing (0:06:02) Codey: actual gardening at my house. (0:06:04) Kev: No, what’s growing? (0:06:04) Codey: So I have a bunch of peppers coming up, (0:06:08) Codey: some romaine, some kale, some tomatoes, and then I planted. (0:06:13) Codey: So all of those that I just mentioned (0:06:15) Codey: were like starts already. (0:06:17) Codey: So they were already like a little seedling. (0:06:20) Codey: They already have stuff going on. (0:06:20) Kev: Mm-hmm. (0:06:23) Codey: But I had these zucchini seeds that weren’t ready, (0:06:28) Codey: like weren’t started. (0:06:30) Kev: I know. (0:06:30) Codey: And so I put those, and they were, (0:06:32) Codey: actually, a little old. So I was like, I don’t know if this is gonna work. So I put the seeds in the ground, and low and behold, they are a bump in. So I actually need to thin those. Yeah, they actually, I actually need to thin those. And then in game news, I beat Breath of the Wild. And I started Tears in the Kingdom, and I did not get very far. I fell to the, to the ground, and then (0:06:42) Kev: life sprung forth. (0:06:52) Kev: Yo, congrats, okay. (0:07:03) Codey: immediately tried to make a wagon out of, because it’s like, there’s like parts all over the world. And there’s like, clearly, what are wagon parts. And I got almost all the way, and then I messed something up. And I like tried to shake it off. And it just broke the whole thing. (0:07:09) Kev: Yeah, yeah. (0:07:18) Kev: Oh, ha ha ha ha! Yeah! Yeah! (0:07:21) Codey: I haven’t really gotten back into that. (0:07:25) Kev: Oh, too disheartening. (0:07:26) Kev: Uh, um, okay, well, alright, there’s a lot here, so let’s back up one sec. (0:07:32) Kev: Okay, birth of the wild, what are your overall thoughts? (0:07:36) Codey: I really liked it. I think the story was don’t don’t look too hard at it, you know, like (0:07:41) Kev: Yeah, that’s correct (0:07:43) Codey: It’s pretty see-through, but it was a solid game. I had a lot of fun (0:07:46) Codey: I still have so much that I could do if I wanted to 100% it but I (0:07:51) Codey: Do not want to do that. So I’m not gonna do (0:07:53) Kev: Yeah, understandable. (0:07:56) Kev: Yeah. (0:07:57) Codey: Maybe it’s something I’d go back to later, but I just have I’m in this like (0:08:02) Codey: Purge mode where I’m like, I need to get through things. So I’m like purging my book (0:08:06) Codey: shelf. Like, I’ve been going through books that are on my bookshelf instead of buying (0:08:06) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:08:11) Codey: books this year and getting rid of a lot of that. I’ve been just going through like boxes (0:08:11) Kev: Mm-hmm. That’s good (0:08:18) Codey: that I’ve had for forever and I just need to get rid of them. So yeah. (0:08:20) Kev: Yeah (0:08:22) Kev: Yeah, okay (0:08:25) Kev: Understandable, okay, uh tears of the king. All right, you know what? (0:08:28) Kev: I think it’s probably for the best you take a breather because tears the I mean (0:08:32) Codey: Yeah. (0:08:33) Kev: There’s a lot new and like it’s sequel worthy (0:08:37) Kev: But it’s still you know, the the breath of the wild skeleton is there, right? So (0:08:38) Codey: Yeah. (0:08:40) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:08:42) Kev: That’s a lot of breath of the wild at once and here’s the kingdom just like the predecessor is beefy (0:08:47) Kev: So, you know what, it’s probably for the best you take. (0:08:48) Codey: I think that’s the thing is like I started playing Tears of the Kingdom and I was like (0:08:56) Codey: I can see how this is going to be the same but also I’m not emotionally ready for these (0:09:01) Codey: changes like there was so much that like powers are different and I’m just struggling and (0:09:02) Kev: Yep. Oh, yeah. Yep. (0:09:09) Codey: so I yeah I needed to take a step back but yeah we. (0:09:11) Kev: Understandable, but it’ll be there when you’re ready. It’s good. It’s a thumbs up as well. (0:09:18) Codey: Yeah we’ve been doing a lot of stuff around the house and I’ve been trying to get rid (0:09:19) Kev: But yeah, I’d take a breather because it. (0:09:27) Codey: of a bunch of my specimens. I have like bugs that are that I caught like on my own that (0:09:32) Codey: I don’t actually they’re not part of anything that I just wanted to go through and I’m so (0:09:38) Codey: I’m finally starting to go through some of those so that my partner and we can have my (0:09:45) Codey: My partner and my roommate can have a freezer again. (0:09:48) Kev: Hmm (0:09:48) Codey: Everyone wants to be with the weird bugs early until they realize it means no freezer space because your freezer is all bugs. (0:09:56) Kev: that’s good good stuff (0:09:58) Codey: So yeah. What have you been up to though? How’s the pup? (0:10:04) Kev: oh the pup the pup is is he’s got healthy six seven months old he’s I mean he’s full size (0:10:11) Kev: he’s gonna be a little guy forever he’s toy variety of poodle but he still is energetic (0:10:12) Codey: Yeah. (0:10:16) Kev: and chaotic as always um still very much puppy um yeah um but uh but he’s yeah he’s a lot of fun (0:10:25) Kev: and still a lot of work, a lot of energy. (0:10:26) Kev: but it’s good. (0:10:29) Kev: Let’s see, other thing, non-puppy things. (0:10:32) Kev: So, I got Kyle and his late birthday gift to Switch 2 on just Friday. (0:10:40) Kev: That was a wild ride because, so the week, Switch 2 is a week out now, basically. (0:10:48) Kev: And I heard people, you know, I didn’t hear any horror stories of PS5, like, oh, it’s not available anywhere. (0:10:54) Kev: I heard everyone was getting it fine and so on. (0:10:56) Kev: And then later in the week I heard, “Oh, this is now the fastest selling console of all time ever.” (0:11:06) Kev: And then when Friday came and I got my paycheck, I was like, “Okay, so where do I get my Switch 2 for Calvin?” (0:11:12) Kev: And, “Oh, oh, it is now sold out everywhere. Oh, and so I’m sweating here.” (0:11:18) Kev: And then I reached out to someone who’s never done me wrong. (0:11:24) Kev: me wrong, someone all reliable. (0:11:26) Kev: you know I heard it was going in and out at stock in some places so I called (0:11:29) Codey: - Ah, yeah. (0:11:35) Kev: my local Costco and sure enough they got him so I was like well you going to (0:11:40) Kev: Costco and so I picked up you know my like switch to and four dozen eggs and (0:11:46) Kev: lemonade you know as one does at the Costco (0:11:48) Codey: Yeah, Costco. Costco also one of the only corporations that did not back off of their queer and diversity stuff when the new administration came in so great, great business to support. (0:12:00) Kev: Yup, yup, yup, Costco generally one of the better ones, not as horribly monstrous as (0:12:11) Kev: other corporations, um, you know, there’s still corporation or whatever, but generally (0:12:17) Kev: I hear good things, um, but anyway, so yeah, so Costco’s great, their food court’s still (0:12:22) Kev: great, um, that I got to switch to at Costco, it came in a bundle, I, I, I drew to Costco, (0:12:28) Kev: There was a discount. (0:12:29) Kev: You get a… (0:12:30) Kev: You get the Switch 2. (0:12:31) Kev: You get the Mario Kart World and a year of the Nintendo Online, the expansion, the better (0:12:37) Codey: live or whatever oh (0:12:40) Kev: one. (0:12:41) Kev: I forget the final price, but it is at a discount, all the stuff all together. (0:12:46) Kev: So that was nice. (0:12:51) Kev: And yeah, so we fired it up, Calvin played a lot of Mario Kart World with Calvin, I see (0:12:56) Kev: for myself, um, it, Mario Kart world is, you know, (0:13:00) Kev: interesting. Like now, now I can understand the process on the stuff Al said. (0:13:05) Kev: So like the Grand Prix is the biggest change because, um, you know, (0:13:09) Kev: in, in all the other Mario karts, it’s okay. Here’s your four courses. (0:13:12) Kev: You run three laps in them or whatever, right? That, that’s just how it is. (0:13:16) Kev: Okay. Now here, it’s not so much like you’re driving to, (0:13:21) Kev: I mean, you are kind of driving to the next track technically, (0:13:23) Kev: but really that’s just part of the Grand Prix. Like instead of three laps, (0:13:28) Kev: There’s three sections and the first section is… (0:13:30) Kev: Okay, drive to, you know, the next track or first or part of it or whatever, so (0:13:36) Kev: It’s less lab continuous laps around a single track and more just going across this entire island in bits and chunks (0:13:45) Kev: So yeah, that is different (0:13:49) Kev: Overall it’s solid. It’s Mario Kart. What can I say? (0:13:52) Kev: But but yeah, it did (0:13:55) Kev: One thing I will say that the huge cast and roster is actually it’s pretty awesome (0:14:01) Kev: just (0:14:02) Kev: Yeah, like cow cow is great actually (0:14:06) Kev: Yeah, and just other random weirdos and losers like the fishbone or pianza (0:14:11) Kev: And even the the main roster that you know the named characters they they have their costumes and a lot of those costumes (0:14:18) Kev: They’re pretty good. I won’t lie (0:14:22) Kev: You get Luigi dressing up like a like a was they called the gondolas in Venice and like one of those guys the gondola (0:14:28) Codey: Oh yeah, yeah, Donna Lear, yeah. (0:14:30) Kev: Yeah, there you go. That’s the word (0:14:33) Kev: Yeah, you get biker characters and just oh, it’s fun (0:14:37) Kev: There’s it’s it’s a lot to see and do (0:14:42) Kev: So yeah, oh, that’s good and the switch to in general (0:14:47) Kev: Holy moly that the technical upgrade is very not just palpable like it’s it’s it’s clear like night and day (0:14:56) Codey: I would hope so. It’s been like 5 years, right? (0:14:57) Kev: And not (0:15:00) Kev: Yeah, no, it’s been almost ten (0:15:04) Codey: Oh my god. (0:15:08) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:15:08) Codey: That’s… I blinked. (0:15:12) Kev: 2016 or 27th, I can’t write the double check but one of those two that’s almost 10 years (0:15:14) Codey: Holy heckaroo. (0:15:18) Codey: Oh my gosh. Yeah, so it sure as heck better be an improvement. (0:15:21) Kev: Yeah, it is (0:15:23) Kev: But what’s nice is you don’t like cuz you know, there’s the whole switch to upgrades for all these games or whatever (0:15:28) Kev: You don’t even have to get it (0:15:30) Kev: I mean it’s like my brother Calvin, he played Splatoon (0:15:32) Kev: And so one of the first things he did was like (0:15:34) Kev: Okay, I’m gonna play Splatoon 2 or 3 or whatever on the new Switch (0:15:38) Kev: And oh yeah, you can see right away (0:15:40) Kev: Dang, look at those frame rates (0:15:42) Kev: They’re real now (0:15:44) Codey: as with the like switch copy, the old copy, it’s backwards compatible. Yeah. (0:15:47) Kev: Yeah, with his Switch copy (0:15:49) Kev: Yeah (0:15:50) Kev: Yeah, it’s backwards compatible (0:15:52) Kev: And he didn’t get an upgrade pack or whatever (0:15:54) Kev: Just running on the better hardware (0:15:57) Kev: like you can do the games just there (0:16:00) Kev: they just run better so very very cool but but yeah so switch to it’s it’s it’s (0:16:07) Codey: Yeah, good that good that you got one. So I was last week (0:16:12) Codey: Last weekend was go fest. I believe question mark (0:16:16) Codey: Yeah, last weekend was yeah last weekend was go fest and so a bunch of us were running around, New York City (0:16:17) Kev: this weekend I i heard (0:16:23) Kev: oh oh new york city go fest yes okay (0:16:23) Codey: and (0:16:25) Codey: friend of friend of the pod Chris Rivate (0:16:29) Kev: - Yeah. (0:16:29) Codey: Was trying to find one man (0:16:34) Codey: And he could not find one (0:16:35) Kev: Yeah. (0:16:37) Codey: He went to some targets. He went to the Nintendo store. He went he couldn’t I don’t know if he’s found one that by now but (0:16:40) Kev: Yeah. (0:16:41) Kev: Yeah. (0:16:42) Kev: Ooh. (0:16:44) Kev: Yeah, ooh, they didn’t have the Nintendo Store. (0:16:46) Kev: That’s rough, ‘cause the Nintendo Store (0:16:48) Kev: generally is pretty stocked with these things. (0:16:48) Codey: Yeah (0:16:50) Codey: Well and my partner’s uh (0:16:52) Codey: The building he works in is right is like the Nintendo building. Basically. It’s like right there (0:16:58) Codey: And he said the week before like all leading up to it (0:17:01) Codey: They had like 30 stations where you could play switch to out like just on the sidewalk (0:17:05) Kev: » Yeah. Oh, that’s cool. (0:17:07) Codey: Um, and yeah, and and those were all gone because i’m assuming they probably still (0:17:15) Codey: Uh, but yeah, it was it was crazy. Um, so many people would switch to stuff and and Pokemon people and (0:17:25) Kev: that’s that’s cool that’s cool but hey um I like I hope chris finds it soon um I i know they’re (0:17:32) Kev: actively trying to you know they’re trying to feed the machine and get restocks everywhere (0:17:36) Kev: I don’t think this is a ps5 situation where it’ll be gone for a year but you know fast to selling (0:17:43) Kev: cons of all time like holy mackerel I don’t think anyone expected that it’s it’s there’s demand for (0:17:48) Kev: it I guess um 10 years yep um (0:17:55) Kev: yeah that’s that’s good I mean overall thumbs up what can I say you know um prices it is what it (0:18:01) Kev: is but you know it’s it’s still good like in a vacuum um oh oh you know what i’m going back (0:18:07) Kev: to mario kart world first because I just remember two other thoughts I want to add first of all um (0:18:10) Codey: Okay. (0:18:11) Kev: so the race is now 24 people in a race right which is kind of insane um but this actually (0:18:18) Kev: had some upsides because the tracks are now really wide generally speaking (0:18:24) Codey: - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, okay. (0:18:26) Kev: which you know there’s still turns that are unforgiving and you’ll fall off or whatever (0:18:30) Kev: but like the golden like the golden mushroom you know the one you can just spam and go go go go (0:18:36) Codey: Mm-hmm (0:18:36) Kev: like that one’s really good now because you can actually just stay on the track instead of just (0:18:40) Kev: flying off in his space yeah so I i actually like that part of it um and then one of the new modes (0:18:40) Codey: You’re not gonna bump off of things yeah (0:18:48) Kev: it’s called knockout rally um I think I like it better than the standard grand prix it it feels (0:18:56) Kev: so how it works is you have your 24 racers and they give you like an eight section chunk of the map (0:19:03) Kev: like okay here’s point a here’s point b c yada yada yada and so every checkpoint the bottom (0:19:10) Kev: four people are eliminated from the race so you start at 24 and at the end of it you’re it’s the (0:19:16) Kev: top four racing for first place of the overall thing um and that’s a fun mode I guess because (0:19:21) Kev: Because as you get towards the end, it feels a little less chaotic and more like the… (0:19:25) Kev: Classic Mario Kart, which is nice because you get a taste of both ends of the spectrum. (0:19:33) Kev: Because yeah, let me tell you, the 24 racers, it’s insane because if you’re in first place or dead last, it’s caught anywhere else. (0:19:42) Codey: Yeah. (0:19:42) Kev: It’s it is blink and you’re 10 places back. It’s insanity. But um… (0:19:46) Codey: Yeah, I used to play track media and it had a thing like that. (0:19:51) Kev: Oh! (0:19:52) Codey: Yeah. (0:19:53) Kev: Yeah, it’s good. I like it a lot. (0:19:55) Kev: Good stuff. Um, I don’t know. Yeah, switch to like I said overall thumbs up Mario Kart. Good stuff (0:20:02) Kev: Alright, let’s see other than that like so that was Calvin’s thing my own things (0:20:06) Kev: I’ve continued to play unicorn overlord the strategy game with a million layers of strategy (0:20:11) Kev: I don’t think I mentioned it so that you can adjust the logic of your your actions, which is insane to me (0:20:19) Kev: So like you’ll have an let’s say an archer, right? They fire an arrow (0:20:22) Kev: oh well, you can set conditions on (0:20:25) Kev: the attack like okay use an arrow on people in the back row or people only flying units or people that have health so on and so forth. It’s just more and more layers on complexity like good complexity of stuff you can do. It’s insane. It’s for crazy weirdos like me. I love it so much. It’s called Unicorn Overlord. It’s on Switch, PS5, Xbox. It’s on all sorts of things. I found it for cheap on Switch like 30 bucks. It’s on the (0:20:55) Kev: It was a $60 full price game when it came out, but it’s it’s cheap now. It’s it’s so good. And I reached the what I forget the name of the place. I reached the country of the beast people. It’s a whole country of like can have human anthropomorphic beast people. You got werewolf people, the bear people, owls, what else? Foxes and cats. I don’t remember. It’s a whole zoo of (0:21:25) Kev: beast people, which is really fun. I don’t know like and they’re you know, they’re kind of their own variation of classes. Like the bears are huge. They have a huge shield and a huge hammer. Oh, I love it. I like it’s it’s fun. It’s a lot of fun. It’s it’s flavorful. But yeah, Unicorn Overlord is good. It’s great for a freak like me. Another than that, the big one in line with the Switch 2. We got back the interwebs. I have internet running in my (0:21:55) Codey: Yay! (0:21:55) Kev: house and recording. I’m catching up on stuff. Zen la zone zero had its big 2.0 update while I was gone. And I floated that it’s a lot of stuff. It’s Zen la zone zero. I’m into it. And you know, it’s for me. But but oh my gosh, so much stuff to catch up on. And then that’s true for like all the other stuff that you know, my usual online haunts and whatnot. But um, but yeah, it’s nice to have that. At least I can watch videos at home now. But yeah, that’s (0:22:25) Kev: That’s what’s going on with me a lot of stuff. I guess works busy. Oh, oh, you know what minor little golf clap for myself here (0:22:34) Kev: so I (0:22:36) Kev: The company I started a couple months ago in February (0:22:40) Kev: My role is now sales engineer (0:22:43) Kev: So I am technically part of sales team a salesperson making sales or should be I made my first sale (0:22:49) Kev: It’s a little one, but it is a first sale. So yeah a golf clap for me. I did a thing (0:22:55) Kev: So yeah, there’s that. Okay. All right, Kevin’s done. All right (0:23:00) Kev: Let’s let’s get into it. All right next stuff. All right, what do we what do we got here? (0:23:04) Codey: Yeah, next is, “I Know What You Released Last Month,” so this is the every month we have a segment at the beginning of the first episode of the month or something which we’re doing it now. (0:23:20) Codey: We just talked about things that came out last month. So this is stuff that might have slipped under our radar, might have been on your radar, but you also have not noticed that it came out. (0:23:30) Kev: Yeah, I see one at least one (0:23:32) Codey: Um, so these are these (0:23:34) Codey: are the things so we oh I do see one too. So we have ratopia to pixellia franamon ea (0:23:40) Kev: That’s okay, okay (0:23:44) Codey: pixelshire or ea being early access pixelshire dole octown early access of life and land 1.0 (0:23:53) Codey: fantasy life I the girl who steals time and battle country do any of these jump out to you (0:23:58) Kev: Okay (0:24:00) Kev: Well, I got one ratopia. It’s a good game. We did the Kelly and all the nepsilon it you go listen to it (0:24:07) Kev: So that’s a thumbs up from me. Um (0:24:09) Kev: The fantasy life I’ve talked about that. I played the DS once good game gonna get the sequel eventually. I’m (0:24:17) Kev: Not yet, but I will get it. But the big one that I missed I didn’t realize it was out cattle (0:24:24) Kev: cattle country (0:24:26) Kev: Good mood, you know (0:24:29) Kev: I want to do that (0:24:31) Kev: So yeah, I’ll be looking at that. I didn’t realize it was out (0:24:35) Codey: - Mm-hmm. (0:24:36) Kev: What about you anything catch your eye (0:24:39) Codey: Of Life and Land caught my eye. (0:24:41) Codey: So that’s a game that I’ve been wanting to play, (0:24:43) Codey: but it’s a terrible time, terrible time to come out. (0:24:47) Codey: So anything could come out for the rest of the year (0:24:51) Codey: and it would be a terrible time. (0:24:51) Kev: No, it’s gonna be so we’re gonna need I know what you released last year (0:24:53) Codey: It’s just gonna be a bad time for me. (0:24:58) Codey: Yeah, and then I can go, it’ll be at the end of the year (0:25:01) Codey: and that’s when I will just have it. (0:25:03) Codey: I will have all the money (0:25:05) Codey: and a big fat job with all those jobs that still exist. (0:25:07) Kev: You go (0:25:09) Codey: Ha, ha, cry. (0:25:14) Kev: Man (0:25:14) Codey: And I’ll have so much money (0:25:15) Codey: and I’ll be like, oh, what can I spend money on? (0:25:18) Codey: No, so, okay. (0:25:19) Kev: Well, I (0:25:20) Codey: Yeah, that, but what? (0:25:21) Kev: Just I just want to add on on that note (0:25:24) Kev: so the company I work for their headquarters is actually in China and (0:25:30) Kev: Our products are manufactured in China with steel from China (0:25:35) Kev: And again, I started this and (0:25:37) Kev: February right like right early February. So like too much jobs into my or two weeks into my job (0:25:44) Kev: You know things happened and then I was like, well, I might be screwed (0:25:49) Codey: Yeah, it’s just up in the air. (0:25:52) Kev: Yup, no, I say that so much jokingly so far it’s okay (0:25:56) Kev: I did not felt shaky security or anything but still the the timing of that was oh (0:26:02) Kev: That was that was wild. Huh? Anyways, but like I said general (0:26:05) Codey: Yeah, it’s a great time to work in conservation, tell you what. (0:26:08) Kev: Oh (0:26:13) Kev: It’s it’s general gestures at the world, right? (0:26:18) Codey: We are here for escapism. (0:26:22) Kev: Yeah, oh, yeah, I want to escape there’s a bandit (0:26:29) Codey: You want to be a bandit? Is it bandit like Bluey’s dad? (0:26:34) Kev: no not that bandit you know we had um momo con in atlanta one of our big cons that one’s very (0:26:41) Kev: like anime focused for whatever reason they brought uh the voices of bandit and chili (0:26:45) Kev: I didn’t go see them but they were here and like dang that was a good get they were they’re like (0:26:52) Kev: the the headlines they’re like top of billing of the the guest list yeah yeah they would be um (0:26:54) Codey: they would be. We have right now, we have a convention near us that has a giant reunion (0:27:04) Codey: of people from Twilight. There’s also Dante Basco, who plays Zuko in Avatar. He has some (0:27:06) Kev: Oh! (0:27:13) Kev: Yo. Yo, we… (0:27:15) Codey: other roles, but my favorite role of his was Rufio and Hook. But yeah, that’s there’s some (0:27:23) Codey: good names in it. (0:27:25) Kev: Yeah, MobileCon was strong this year. They had some good names. I think they also had some Avatar people, um… (0:27:32) Kev: I know, but yeah, but Band and Chili were another like, “Oh, here’s the ones we were highlighting on. Here’s the, like I said, top building and a little guest list or whatever.” (0:27:41) Kev: Um… (0:27:42) Kev: Ah, Louie’s so good. (0:27:45) Kev: We, we gotta, we still have to do a greenhouse episode of How We Talked About It, and I’d love to do it. (0:27:46) Codey: I just need it back. (0:27:49) Codey: Oh my gosh, I’m not ready to cry. (0:27:51) Kev: Just… (0:27:53) Kev: Well, now we… (0:27:56) Kev: Yeah, there’s a lot of episodes that get emotional reactions, more than you’d think. (0:28:04) Codey: - Yeah, there was one that just like out of nowhere, (0:28:06) Codey: hit me and I was just sobbing. (0:28:07) Kev: Alright, which one? (0:28:10) Codey: No, I’m not, wait, it’s a great way for the greenhouse. (0:28:12) Codey: I’ll tell you not on the, yeah. (0:28:13) Kev: Alright, we’ll stay on the greenhouse, okay? (0:28:15) Kev: You know, look, it’s not my number one, but any time they show an older, bluey, I just scream. (0:28:16) Codey: We’ll do a greenhouse sometime soon without that. (0:28:24) Codey: - Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:28:28) Codey: With the tree and the camping and the, (0:28:29) Kev: Alright. (0:28:30) Kev: Oh, that was a good one. (0:28:32) Codey: that was a good one. (0:28:34) Codey: So that is what released last month. (0:28:35) Kev: Alright, you know what else was good? (0:28:39) Codey: Are you gonna talk about the wholesome directs? (0:28:40) Kev: I was, because that was… (0:28:42) Kev: Yeah, oh yeah, okay, well yeah. (0:28:43) Kev: But that was the stuff that came out. (0:28:45) Kev: Was there any, you know, I’m going too fast here. (0:28:47) Kev: Is there anything else you wanted to talk about on the stuff that came out? (0:28:49) Codey: - No, no. (0:28:50) Kev: Okay, now, I mean, I’d have to… (0:28:53) Kev: I don’t remember all these names off the top of my head (0:28:55) Kev: So maybe a missing one, but I mean either anyways, but yes wholesome direct that was also good Cody (0:29:00) Kev: Do you have any thoughts on the wholesome? (0:29:02) Codey: So, uh, the question that I’ll pose specifically was did I have anything that you guys didn’t say I didn’t listen to last week’s episode yet (0:29:10) Codey: I’m sorry, so (0:29:10) Kev: That’s fine. No, that’s fine. I’m usually a couple weeks behind myself. (0:29:13) Codey: But (0:29:14) Codey: but also I just um, I just like (0:29:20) Codey: Watch the first like I watched the whole host and direct but a lot of it was I was just like I (0:29:26) Codey: Expected that yep. Okay. Yeah, I’ve heard this is coming out. Okay, this this is to be expected (0:29:30) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:29:32) Codey: The only thing that I was super stoked about and I wrote a note down and I put underlined an exclamation point (0:29:38) Codey: Was leaf-blowing games (0:29:40) Kev: Yeah (0:29:42) Kev: So I’m like (0:29:42) Codey: Um, yeah (0:29:44) Kev: Powerwash simulator has established a genre like it’s wild but here we are (0:29:51) Kev: It’s it’s just that satisfaction of I don’t know clean like sing something becoming clean. I guess like I (0:29:59) Kev: Guess that’s I mean I so one of my little habits quarks. I am infamous for (0:30:08) Kev: adjusting like (0:30:10) Kev: If I’m just standing by some are just like waiting for something or whatever and I see like a dusty area I will start (0:30:17) Kev: dusting that thing cuz I (0:30:18) Codey: Yeah, I do stuff like that too. And then it’s really awkward when I’m doing it. And I’m waiting for my friend to get like ready to go do something and then I’m like cleaning up their house and they’re like, Oh, I’m sorry. Am I dirty? And I’m like, No, I just need to do this. (0:30:20) Kev: That’s that’s (0:30:29) Kev: Yeah (0:30:38) Kev: Yeah (0:30:40) Kev: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, so it’s no I’m not trying to shame or do anything just I can make like there’s an opportunity to make a dust (0:30:47) Kev: Bunny here, and that’s that’s that that’s a good one (0:30:48) Codey: Or like, I’m sorry, I looked and this plant, uh, like I checked it and it desperately needs water. So I don’t say that. Oh, that was a big. (0:30:56) Kev: Yeah, oh (0:30:59) Kev: Okay, you know that that one might be a little harder like I could see it cuz you know that that one’s like (0:31:06) Kev: Active care of a living thing right like the dust thing that that just happens passively (0:31:11) Kev: But like I get it and I’m like I’m this. Oh, that’s that’s rough. But um (0:31:17) Kev: But yeah, but it’s the same thing. Yeah, just just chicken something offer, you know (0:31:22) Kev: Hi, yeah, you know what hydrating a plant that is a good one right like seeing the water (0:31:26) Codey: Yeah and like you can, especially like I know how to, I’ve had a lot of these plants like I (0:31:26) Kev: Go in and the soil absorbs it (0:31:32) Codey: go to a friend’s house I see their pothos is looking kind of sad and then I can also first of (0:31:37) Codey: all pop those you can just water the crap out of those they’re fine but like or a monstera or (0:31:42) Codey: something and I you can check the soil you can just dip a finger into the soil and if it is bone (0:31:46) Codey: bone dry just pour a little water and just give her a little love. Especially as grad students like (0:31:50) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:31:53) Codey: we usually have so much going on like (0:31:55) Kev: Yeah (0:31:56) Codey: it’s good to just like take care of something for someone so yeah that (0:31:58) Kev: Yeah, yeah for sure yeah, absolutely I get that and like us (0:32:03) Codey: leaf-blowing game though so it was funny because like I was listening to this (0:32:04) Kev: Yeah. Oh, yeah (0:32:09) Codey: while I was the wholesome direct in the um in the museum that I worked in and (0:32:14) Kev: Uh-huh (0:32:14) Codey: people that were working in the museum were like what are you freaking out (0:32:17) Codey: about I’m like this is a leaf-blowing game and like someone was like what do (0:32:21) Codey: you mean and then someone else started explaining they’re like yeah it’s like (0:32:24) Codey: Like, it’s like– (0:32:26) Codey: like, leafblowing, or, like, there’s a power wash one. (0:32:29) Codey: But, like, why don’t you just, like, get one in real life? (0:32:33) Codey: Why don’t you just go get a leafblower? (0:32:35) Codey: And I’m like, first of all, that’s money. (0:32:36) Kev: It’s money. (0:32:37) Codey: Second of all, I can’t– (0:32:38) Kev: Yeah! (0:32:42) Codey: like, it wouldn’t take me that long to leafblow my yard. (0:32:45) Codey: And then it would be done. (0:32:46) Kev: Yeah (0:32:46) Codey: And then I would have nothing left to leafblow. (0:32:49) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:32:50) Codey: So I also actually have a leafblower already. (0:32:53) Codey: But we– (0:32:55) Kev: Yeah (0:32:56) Codey: Yeah, this is different. (0:32:57) Codey: Like, I can power wash a children’s playground (0:33:01) Codey: as a Stegosaurus, and I can try and get the soccer ball (0:33:03) Codey: to go up the slide and get extra points. (0:33:05) Kev: Yeah, that’s true man, so you know, I live in an apartment so I get even less leaf blower powerwash opportunities or whatever, but (0:33:07) Codey: Like, that’s just– that’s just fun. (0:33:10) Codey: That’s just pure fun. (0:33:21) Kev: The one thing I’ll do on I don’t even do it out of like generous and most times I do out of spite or impatience (0:33:29) Kev: There’ll be shrubs or trees that are just they’re just growing way too long (0:33:33) Kev: Like actually interferes (0:33:35) Kev: Like I need extra clearance for walking or I have more of a hassle for me to go under so I’ll go out and trim him up and oh there we go (0:33:36) Codey: Mmm, mmm, mmm, mmm. (0:34:02) Kev: I can now walk without having to bend. (0:34:05) Kev: That’s why leaf blower simulator exists for these exact reasons. (0:34:09) Codey: It’s intruding on public space. (0:34:11) Codey: They needed to take care of it and they didn’t. (0:34:35) Kev: Let’s start with updates to games that exist going from old to new. (0:34:40) Kev: We are going to start with Critter crops. (0:34:44) Kev: The witchery born. What a name for an update. (0:34:48) Kev: The witchery born. (0:34:48) Codey: Yeah, that’s a pretty, pretty, like, metal name, yeah, exactly. (0:34:51) Kev: Metal. (0:34:56) Kev: It’s a very cute, cozy art style on critter crops. (0:34:59) Kev: It’s very adorable. I love it. (0:35:01) Kev: called the witch reborn you know it’s the fear street (0:35:03) Codey: Yeah. (0:35:05) Kev: three three four um it. Mm hmm. (0:35:09) Codey: Yeah, so this one adds a new vendor, (0:35:12) Codey: which I’m assuming is the witch, a new grimoire, new UI. (0:35:16) Codey: It adds new turn by turn combat and different customization (0:35:21) Codey: options. (0:35:22) Codey: But I think the biggest thing for y’all, for you and Al, (0:35:25) Codey: and probably for our audience, is complete controller support. (0:35:30) Codey: And they say, quote, this one was a doozy to. (0:35:33) Codey: Implement. Unfortunately, it’s not perfect. (0:35:35) Codey: So we recommend not swapping back and forth between joystick and mouse and keyboard. (0:35:42) Kev: Are there people who do that? (0:35:44) Codey: I thought that’s a choice. (0:35:49) Kev: You know what, that’s fine. Let those people- I think those people deserve it, if that’s what they want to do. (0:35:54) Kev: Let them- we’re introducing updates to make their lives more miserable. (0:36:00) Kev: Freaks! (0:36:04) Kev: I’m kidding. Obviously there’s- I’m sure- I look- I don’t mouse and keyboard at all in general, so… (0:36:10) Codey: Or maybe your controller’s dead. (0:36:11) Codey: Maybe you have ADHD and you forgot to charge it. (0:36:12) Kev: Yeah. (0:36:15) Codey: Can’t relate, but– (0:36:15) Kev: Yeah, look, the obvious use case is you need to type something, you know, a thing pops up, well… (0:36:20) Codey: Oh, true, true. (0:36:22) Kev: Just keyboard away, like, yeah. No, I’m sure it exists, but… (0:36:24) Codey: Multitasking. (0:36:28) Kev: Yeah, alright, but that- that- like, I’m just looking at this big list, um… (0:36:33) Kev: That- that’s a lot of stuff, um, like, holy mackerel, that is- they just had a truckload of updates on their little steam blurb, (0:36:42) Kev: like, revamp combat, that’s huge, holy mackerel. (0:36:46) Codey: » Mm-hmm. (0:36:47) Kev: Um, good for them, um, and controller support, yeah, that’s a big one. (0:36:48) Codey: » Yeah. Go for them. (0:36:51) Codey: So this is technically their 2.0 update. (0:36:53) Codey: So it’s already out, it’s 1999, (0:36:55) Codey: it’s only on Windows. (0:36:57) Codey: So this just adds some new content and updates some things. (0:37:03) Codey: No, sir. I’m not sure if you heard the dog. (0:37:06) Kev: I might want to play this. This game is so cute. I’m just looking at this art style. It’s it’s (0:37:11) Codey: I think when we initially looked at this, (0:37:11) Kev: adorable (0:37:14) Codey: of the art style was not my favorite. (0:37:16) Codey: But it’s growing on me. It’s growing. (0:37:17) Kev: I (0:37:18) Kev: like it and these these (0:37:21) Kev: Everything’s kind of bouncing cute. I look just look at it people to go click on the link in the show notes. It’s good one (0:37:28) Kev: That’s critter. Yeah, it’s 2.0. You’re right (0:37:30) Kev: Um, I buy will likely especially now has controller support. Yeah, this one’s on my list now (0:37:36) Kev: officially oh (0:37:39) Kev: All right, um, what do we have next? (0:37:44) Codey: Next up is Travelers Rest, so they have a new thing called Pet Party, (0:37:54) Codey: which is an expansion, not an expansion, a DLC question. (0:37:58) Kev: I have pet parties at home. It’s called lucky wants to just jump on me and lick my face a lot and man (0:38:04) Codey: So this is the 0.7, 0.1 update, so this is still in early access, still earlier on, and they basically (0:38:11) Codey: we just added a pet. I think he had a cat before, but I’m (0:38:14) Codey: going to have a dog, dog will follow you around and it’ll (0:38:17) Codey: dig things up. And when you see like the little they dig and (0:38:22) Codey: there’s a little symbol, you can also dig and you can get stuff (0:38:25) Codey: out of the ground. It also adds the artifacts table. So you (0:38:31) Codey: might uncover some archaeological things. And then (0:38:35) Codey: you can use the artifacts table to make them into things to (0:38:39) Codey: decorate your home. So I think the dogs are cute. (0:38:44) Codey: They have a lot of options for it. Also, yeah, also in the (0:38:48) Kev: Yeah, this is Saint Bernard, that’s wild. (0:38:53) Codey: building. So you get these in the from a new building with (0:38:57) Codey: new NPCs, they’re called the buildings called the burrow is (0:39:01) Codey: basically an animal shelter. They have like a red panda in (0:39:05) Codey: there. They have some other stuff that currently you cannot (0:39:10) Codey: get, but it it there it would be nice. It would be (0:39:14) Codey: nice to get some of this stuff. Yeah. (0:39:16) Kev: Yeah, I can’t have a breadband in real life, so you know I’d like one virtually (0:39:22) Kev: That they have a dog with a cone on it (0:39:24) Kev: I don’t think I’ve seen that before in a game or you know one of these cottagecore games so props to them for that (0:39:30) Codey: I don’t think I’ve ever seen it in a game. (0:39:33) Kev: You might be right I don’t think I have either (0:39:36) Codey: I can’t believe Sims hasn’t done that yet. (0:39:38) Kev: Yeah, I’m surprised Sims hasn’t done that for people (0:39:45) Codey: I wonder if that’s a choice you can have. (0:39:46) Kev: You (0:39:49) Codey: And then, you know, I wouldn’t be surprised. (0:39:49) Kev: Know (0:39:51) Kev: Yeah, yeah, I don’t I’m never surprised by anything in Sims. I was just like yeah sure I believe they’d do it (0:39:58) Kev: You know I’ve always been a little hard on travelers rest because it’s you know so (0:40:04) Kev: Star Dewey, but man they’ve really made this game robust. They’re supporting it law is strong like good for them (0:40:13) Kev: Yeah, it’s impressive. I you know to the tip of my head (0:40:16) Kev: Cuz that’s a that’s good work (0:40:20) Kev: Is it is it changing my mind? Maybe a little I’m impressed (0:40:23) Codey: Well, it’s not at 1.0 yet, so you’ve got some time. (0:40:27) Kev: It is not one but you know what yeah, that’s right that that is my general bar (0:40:32) Kev: So what you know, but you’ve caught my interest, you know 1.1 drops. Maybe I’ll pick it up. Remember (0:40:40) Kev: All right, you know what is past 1.0 pixel. Yeah is we talked we actually mint (0:40:46) Kev: Didn’t we mention it? Yeah (0:40:47) Codey: Yeah, so it came out last month, and they have now brought out Steam Deck and controller support and key rebinding support. (0:40:59) Codey: And here, Al has a comment. (0:41:05) Codey: Al, not on the pod, but he commented, “Both of these should have been there at launch.” (0:41:10) Codey: Quote. (0:41:10) Kev: You know what, yes, and you know what, I’m going to say that as a blanket statement for any game on a PC. (0:41:11) Codey: Yeah. (0:41:18) Kev: Like, okay, maybe not every, there’s like, I’m sure there’s a 1% like, this game does not need a controller, but if your game could use a controller at launch with controller support, please, please. (0:41:30) Codey: Yeah, so this is what Al said, and I am going to retweet, share, like, subscribe to this comment. (0:41:37) Codey: Quote, “I am not going to stop complaining when games launch without even the most (0:41:41) Codey: basic controller or remapping support. It should be built into games from the very first time (0:41:47) Codey: you do any key mapping in the first place. It is not just for Steam Deck users, it is an (0:41:52) Codey: accessibility feature. Granted, they did add both within two months, but they should have been there (0:42:00) Codey: version.” Yeah. (0:42:00) Kev: yep yep and you know what like I for those early access or betas like I you know I can get it you (0:42:07) Kev: know how to control support but if you do 1.0 you’re crossing that line you you gotta do it just (0:42:08) Codey: Yeah. (0:42:13) Kev: come on you gotta look a little professional right like and I get it can be hard I get it that can (0:42:19) Kev: be worked the what was it the the other critter crops they said that was hard and you know what (0:42:24) Kev: they’re probably right but you just (0:42:27) Codey: - Oh yeah, you’re basically like releasing your game (0:42:31) Codey: or just some people, but like for some of your base. (0:42:38) Codey: But if there are people who are reliant on controller (0:42:42) Codey: support or keyboard remapping to be able to play a game, (0:42:46) Codey: period, then you’re basically limiting, (0:42:51) Codey: those people can’t play your game at launch. (0:42:53) Codey: And so everyone else is gonna be off playing it (0:42:55) Codey: and enjoying it. (0:42:57) Codey: They’re going to be Squidward in his house, looking at SpongeBob and Patrick running around, having fun. (0:42:58) Kev: Mm-hmm (0:43:07) Kev: That meme is so good (0:43:08) Codey: I love that meme. I post that meme all the time. (0:43:11) Kev: So, I mean really, you know like I mean you and me are roughly in the same age (0:43:17) Kev: Group, right? So, you know those first two seasons spongebob that we know when they kind of defined a large part of our brain and life (0:43:25) Kev: and vocabulary on but (0:43:28) Kev: But the memes are very strong from spongebob. That’s such a good one (0:43:28) Codey: - Yeah, they are, they’re endearing. (0:43:34) Kev: Yep, oh (0:43:36) Kev: But okay. Well that all said it is out on pixalia. Um, so good for them for finally getting it out (0:43:44) Kev: You know just a few warning to you know using our (0:43:49) Kev: Influencer power here on all these games that clearly listen to us (0:43:53) Kev: Game devs listening to us put your put your controls report at once (0:43:57) Codey: - I mean, I will, I’ll jump on a high horse. (0:43:59) Codey: I think that like these games are geared (0:44:02) Codey: for neurodivergent folks towards like, (0:44:05) Codey: they are for people who are different. (0:44:06) Kev: Yeah. That’s a good point. (0:44:10) Codey: And so it’s something that like, yeah, (0:44:13) Codey: like not having that out at the jump is like kind of weird (0:44:19) Codey: to exclude basically your biggest fan base. (0:44:22) Codey: It’s like, if they were like, oh, (0:44:24) Kev: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. (0:44:24) Codey: we’re going to make a new harvest moon. (0:44:27) Codey: game but you can only be a boy and then a month in suddenly you can be a girl and you can be (0:44:33) Codey: a different race and you like so I it’s it’s 2025 y’all we are past this I thought (0:44:42) Kev: Yeah. (0:44:44) Codey: but yeah good on them for getting it out ASAP but uh just to be warned else um please have this out (0:44:52) Codey: like after Trump (0:44:56) Kev: All right, what do we got next? (0:45:00) Codey: Next up, sorry, next up is Lightyear Frontier. (0:45:03) Codey: They have their new ELC slash what it called, (0:45:08) Codey: just content update. (0:45:09) Codey: Yeah, it’s just content update. (0:45:11) Codey: It’s the shipping gear update. (0:45:13) Codey: It just adds a lot ton of new content. (0:45:18) Kev: settings and things. (0:45:18) Codey: So yeah, settings, there’s modular building, (0:45:21) Codey: there’s new tools, there’s new types to cross and mounds. (0:45:26) Codey: There’s mech, there’s health. (0:45:28) Kev: health? What do you mean adding mech health? There’s an inn already? (0:45:30) Codey: And your mech, yeah, it’s true. (0:45:36) Codey: New minerals to the game world, a day length setting, (0:45:40) Codey: a setting where you can auto hide the heads up display, (0:45:43) Codey: which is super dope, adding a quick deposit accelerator (0:45:46) Codey: in storage contract menus, (0:45:48) Codey: 100% love whenever you add quick deposit things. (0:45:52) Codey: You don’t have to click a button a million times. (0:45:55) Codey: Um, I mean, it seems like, uh, it’s, it’s, uh, yeah. (0:46:00) Codey: It’s an update that kind of fixes a lot of the small little, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, they (0:46:04) Kev: they’re literally changing physics in the game that’s there’s several bullets on physics (0:46:12) Codey: also have, uh, some changes to physics and some bug fixes and they have a new roadmap (0:46:17) Codey: and the new roadmap, um, includes, so in development, so we’re still in early access for this game. (0:46:24) Codey: The things that are in development, so they are happening, um, are (0:46:30) Codey: more mech customization, more ruins and lore, biome, building pieces, um, in exploration (0:46:37) Codey: stuff they’re thinking about doing, but, uh, is not quite on the horizon, is mech powered (0:46:44) Codey: resource hauling, so I guess your mech’s carrying resources for you, new hazards and terrain, (0:46:51) Codey: and then some other things for consideration, if I see controller support in here, I’m gonna (0:46:56) Codey: can lose it. Um, multiplayer. (0:46:58) Kev: Hahahaha at least (0:47:00) Codey: Or expanded automation, uh, creative mode, fast travel, mod support. Okay, cool. (0:47:07) Kev: Mm-hmm. Well, I’d say yeah (0:47:11) Kev: Yeah, do you think road map should have at least target tentative dates? (0:47:16) Kev: I feel like they should because I don’t know that that feels like the map part to me, but (0:47:23) Kev: That’s just like a general statement like a month (0:47:26) Kev: You know, because they list all this, but there’s no dates or anything. (0:47:28) Kev: You know, again, I know that work is hard. They’d probably be wrong anyways, but… (0:47:35) Codey: It’s nice to give people some idea because

Is AI underdelivering? Or are we asking the wrong questions? This episode breaks down what actually leads to business ROI with AI (and no, it’s not more automation). Overview What if AI isn’t the silver bullet—yet—but the bottleneck is human, not technical? In this episode, Brian Milner chats with Evan Leybourn and Christopher Morales of the Business Agility Institute about their latest research on how organizations are really using AI, what’s working (and what’s wildly overhyped), and why your success might hinge more on your culture than your code. References and resources mentioned in the show: Evan Leybourn Christopher Morales Business Agility Institute From Constraints to Capabilities Report Delphi Method #93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn #82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton #117: How AI and Automation Are Redefining Success for Developers with Lance Dacy AI Practice Prompts For Scrum Masters Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of Directing the Agile Organization and #noprojects; a culture of continuous value. Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy. Christopher Morales is a seasoned digital strategist and agile leader with over 20 years of experience guiding organizations like ESPN, IBM, and the Business Agility Institute. As founder of Electrick Media, he helps U.S. and European businesses harness AI to make smarter, more sustainable decisions in a rapidly changing world. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. We've kind been a little bit off and on recently, but I'm back, I'm here, I'm ready to go, and we've got a really good episode for you today. I've got two, two guests with me. I know that's not a normal thing that we do here, but we got two guests. First, we have Mr. Evan Layborn with us, who's back. Welcome back, Evan. Evan Leybourn (00:23) Good morning from Melbourne, Australia. Brian Milner (00:26) And Christopher Morales is joining us for the first time. Christopher worked with Evan on a project and we're going to talk about that in just a second, but Christopher, welcome in. Christopher Morales (00:35) Yeah, good evening. Nice to be here. It's very late here in Germany. So this is an international attendance. Brian Milner (00:42) Yeah, we were talking about this just as we started. I think we have pretty much all times of day represented here on this call because we've got morning here from Evan. We've got late evening here for Christopher and I'm kind of late afternoon. So we're covered. All our bases are covered here. But we wanted to have these two on. They both work for a company called the Business Agility Institute. And if you have been with us for a while, you probably remember Evan's episode that we had on last year when we kind of talked about one of the studies that they had done. Well, they put out a new one that I kind of saw Evan posting about. And I thought, wow, that sounds really, really interesting. I really want to have them on to talk about this. It's called From Constraints to Capabilities, AI as a Force Multiplier. The great thing about the Business Agility Institute is they get into the data. They do the research, they put in the hard work, and it's not just speculation. It's not just, that's one guy's bloated opinion, and do they know what they're talking about or not? So that's what I really, really appreciate about the things that come out of the Business Agility Institute is they're factual, they're data-based. So that's what I wanna start with, I guess, is... What was the genesis of this? What did you guys, how did you land on this as a topic and how did you narrow it down to this as a topic? Where did this start? Evan Leybourn (02:07) Well, quite simply, it started from almost a hypothesis around so much of the conversation around AI. And let's face it, there is a lot of conversation around artificial intelligence and specifically generative, predictive and agentic AI. Focuses on the technology. And yet when we talk to organizations, a lot of them don't seem to be seeing a positive return on investment, a positive ROI. And we needed to understand why, why these benefits of like three times products or operational efficiency product throughput, three times value creation, Why weren't companies seeing this? That's really what we were trying to understand. Why? Brian Milner (03:01) Yeah, that's a great basis for this because I think you're right. There's sort of this, I would imagine there's lots of people out there who are kind of going through their business lives and hearing all these incredible claims that people are making in the media about how this is gonna replace everyone. And now it's, yeah, we can, I mean, you said 3X, I've heard like, 10 or anywhere from 10 to 100X, the capabilities of teams and that they can now do all these amazing things. And if I'm just going through my business career, I'm looking at that from the outside going, is this fact or is this fantasy? this just a bluster or is this really, really happening? So I really appreciate this as a topic. A little bit of insider baseball here for everybody. You guys talk about in this report that you use a specific method here, the Delphi method. for data geeks here, or if you're just kind of curious, would you mind describing a little bit about what that means? Evan Leybourn (04:00) Chris, do you want to take that one? Christopher Morales (04:01) Yeah, well, so the idea behind using the Delphi method was actually inspired by my sister. She had done a periodic review that utilized this method. And essentially what it is is we utilize rounds of inquiry with an expert panel to refine the research, the feedback that we're getting. And so we collected an initial set of data. reviewed that data, tried to analyze it to come up with a consensus, and then repositioned our findings back to the experts to find out where they stood based on what they gave us. And really trying to get all of the experts to come to an agreement in specific areas. In the areas that we found gray space, for instance, or let's say, data was spread out, right? Those were really the areas where we're really trying to force these experts to get off of the fence and really make an assessment. And it was proved extremely helpful, I think, in this research because what I find in the AI space is that there is plenty of gray. And we really wanted to get to some stronger degree of black and white. I'm not going to say these findings are black and white, but I will say that in order to guide people, you need to give them degrees of confidence. And I feel like that's what we wanted to do with this. Brian Milner (05:31) Well, that's the great thing about research though, Is it can give you information, but there's always the story. And it's really kind of finding that story that really is the crux of it. So we open this saying, fact or fiction. So just hit us up with a couple of the, maybe some of the surprising findings or some of the key things. For the people you talk to. Christopher Morales (05:38) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (05:53) Were they seeing these amazing kind of, you know, 100 X of their capabilities or what was the reality of what people reported to you? Evan Leybourn (06:01) In a few cases, yes. Maybe not 100x, but 8x, 10x was definitely being shown. But the big aha, and I won't say it was a surprise, was really in a lot of organizations, the teams that were using AI were seeing Brian Milner (06:03) Okay. Evan Leybourn (06:23) absolutely massive improvements. People talk about going from months to minutes in terms of trying to create things. And so there's your 100X. But when we look at it at a business level and the business ROI, when we look at the idea to customer from concept to cash, when we look at the overall business flow, very few of those organizations saw those benefits escape from the little AI inner circle. And so that 10x or the 100x improvement fizzles into nothingness in some cases. negligible improvement in the whole organization. Some organizations absolutely saw those benefits throughout the entire system. And those were organizations who had created a flow, who created organizational systems that could work at the speed of AI, especially some of the younger AI native organizations, if you want to think of them that way. But no, most organizations those 10x, 100x kind of goals were unachievable for the business. And so when I was saying 3x, by the way, what we sort of tended to find is those organizations, mature organizations with mature AI programs and systems. we're generally seeing between a 1.2 to 1.4x improvement to about a 2.8 to about a 3.2x improvement. So that's like a 20 % to a 300 % improvement if you want to think of it this way. Brian Milner (08:15) Wow. Well, that's nothing to sneeze at. That's still really, really impressive. Christopher Morales (08:19) yeah, it'll make a significant difference. I think for me the interesting thing about the findings is that there's two areas that I think will pose a really interesting question for people who read the report, and that is this idea of being very intentional about identifying your goal, right? I don't know how many organizations are really meaningfully identifying what their expected outcome is. And I think the other thing, which we didn't really talk about much in the report, but I think plays a role in the conversation that's kind of bubbling to the surface here today, has to do with the human element inside of the organization. And while all of the organizations that we spoke to said that the human was a very important element and prioritized, There was a challenge in identifying specific initiatives that were being put in place to account for the disruption that the technology might have on the staff or the employees. And that wasn't surprising. That was kind of expected. But I think it's interesting that, you know, eight months after we released this report, I would argue that that's still the case. Brian Milner (09:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating because you're right. It's, it's, that's not the story you always hear, because you, you are hearing kind of more of taking the human out of the loop and making it more of just this straight automation kind of project. I want to ask really a question here though, Evan, said you made the distinction about it being more mature, groups, more mature organizations. I'm just curious, is that translate to, is there anything that translates there into the size of the organization as well? Did you find that more larger organizations had a different outcome than smaller, more nimble startup kind of organizations? Evan Leybourn (10:14) So age more than size. Younger organizations tended to be more, well, mean, they tended to be more agile. There's more business agility and through that greater benefits out of AI. These things are very tightly tied together. If you can't do... Brian Milner (10:18) Hmm, okay. Evan Leybourn (10:38) Agile or if you don't have agility as an organization, you're not going to do AI particularly well. And a piece of that goes to what you were just talking about in terms and you use the word automation, which is a beautiful, beautiful trigger word for me here because the reality is that the organizations that utilized AI, specifically generative or agentic AI, to automate their workforce rarely saw a high, like a strong return on investment. It basically comes down to generative predictive AI, generative and agentic AI tends not to be a good automation tool. It's non-deterministic. You pull a lever, you get one result. You pull the same lever tomorrow, you will get a different result. There are better tools for automation, cheaper tools for automation. And so we're not saying automation is bad. We're just saying that it's not the technology for it. The organizations that used it to augment their workforce were the ones that were seeing significant benefits. And now there are caveats and consequences to this because it does change the role of the human, the human in the loop, the human in the organization. But fundamentally, organizations that were automating or using AI for automation were applying an industrial era mindset and mentality to an information era opportunity. And they weren't seeing the benefits, not at a business level, not long term. And in some cases, did more harm than good. Brian Milner (12:28) That's really deep insight. That's really amazing to hear that. I'm interested as well. You found some places that were seeing bigger gains than others that were seeing bigger payoffs. Did you find patterns in what some of the hurdles were or some of the kind of obstacles that were preventing some of these that weren't seeing the payoffs from really taking full advantage of this technology? Christopher Morales (12:52) Yeah, absolutely. mean, we identified some significant constraints that, interestingly enough, when we talk about this, we obviously do workshops. So we were just at the XP conference doing a workshop. And when we talk about this, we identify the fact that our position is that the challenges to AI are a human problem, not a technology problem. And the findings reflect that because of the constraints that we found. only one of the major constraints was associated with technology and that was data primarily. The constraints that we identified had to do with normal operations within a business. So long budgeting cycles or the ability to make a decision at a fast rate of speed, for instance. These are all human centric challenges that independent of AI, If you're trying to run an efficient organization, you're trying to run an agile organization, right? Able to take advantage of opportunities. These are all things that are going to come into play. and, you know, as we like to say, like AI is only going to amplify that, right? So if AI can show you 20 more times, like the opportunities available to you is your organization going to be able to pivot? Do you have a funding model that can provide the necessary support for a given initiative? Or is the way things that run within the organization essentially giving you AI that provides you information that you can't move? Brian Milner (14:31) That's a great, yeah, yeah. Evan Leybourn (14:31) And think of it this way, if you're expecting AI to give you a three times improvement to product delivery, can your leaders make decisions three times faster? Can you get market feedback three times faster? And for most organizations, the answer is no. Brian Milner (14:51) Yeah. Yeah, that's a great phrase in there that Chris was talking about, like the AI will just amplify things. I think that's a great observation. And I think you're right. this is kind of, you know, there's been a thing I've talked about some recently in class. there's a... I'll give you my theory. You tell me if your data supports this theory or not. I'm just curious. You know, we've been teaching for a long time in Scrum classes that, you know, there's been studies, there's been research that shows that when you look at the totality of the features that are being completed in software development, there's really a large percentage of them that are rarely or never used, right? They're not finding favor with the audience. The audience is not using those capabilities. And so my theory, and this is what I want you guys, I'm curious what your thought is. If AI is amplifying the capability of development to produce faster, then my theory is that's going to only expand the number of things that we produce that aren't used because the focus has been sort of historically on that it's a It's a developer productivity issue that if we could just expand developer productivity, the business would be more successful when those other former studies are saying, wait a minute, that may not be it. We need to focus more on what customers really want. And if we knew what they really wanted, well, then, yeah, then productivity comes into play. But That's the human element again, right? We have to understand the customer. have to know. So I'm just curious again, maybe I'm out on a limb here or maybe that doesn't line up, how does that line up with what you found? Evan Leybourn (16:41) So the report's called From Constraints to Capabilities. And Chris, we spoke about the constraints. So maybe let's talk about the capabilities for a second. for the listeners who are unfamiliar with the Business Agility Institute, the model that we use for the majority of our research is the domains of business agility, which is a behavioral and capability Brian Milner (16:45) Ha ha. Yes. Evan Leybourn (17:04) Now, in that model, there are 84 behaviors that we model against organizations. But in this context, more importantly, were the 18 business capabilities. And so what we found was that the organizations that were actually seeing an improvement weren't the ones with the capabilities around throughput. So one of the capabilities deliver value sooner. That wasn't strongly tied. So the ability to deliver value sooner wasn't strongly tied to seeing a benefit from AI. But the ability to prioritize or prioritize, prioritize, prioritize, something so important we said it three times, was one of the most strongly needed capabilities. It correlates where organizations that were better at prioritization, at being able to decide which feature or area, what thing to do was the next most important thing. If you're got AI building seven or eight prototypes in the same time you used to be able to create one, great, you now have seven or eight options. Not that seven or eight are going to go to market. but you're going to decide, you've got more optionality. So it's not that you're be delivering more faster, though in some cases that is obviously the case, but you've got more to choose from so that if you make the right decision, you will see those business benefits. But the capability that had the strongest, absolute strongest relationship to seeing a benefit from artificial intelligence was the ability to cultivate a learning organization. That's not education, that's around learning, experimentation, trying things, testing things, being willing as an organization to say, well, that didn't work, let's try something else. And those learning organizations were the ones that were almost universally more successful at seeing a business benefit from their AI initiatives than anybody else. So yeah, just because you can develop features faster, it means nothing if it's not the right features that the customers want. And that comes from learning and prioritization and there are other capabilities unleashing. workflow creatively and funding work dynamically, for example, that came out strongly. But I just really wanted to highlight those two because that's the connection that you're looking for. Christopher Morales (19:43) Yeah. And if you think about your question ties directly into something that we heard at the conference we were just at, likening to technical debt. So we're actually starting to see the increase in technical debt because of the influence that AI and software development is having in the creation of code and so on and so forth. And so... I think that what you're saying is spot on in terms of your theory. And I think that this speaks to what I believe we should really kind of amplify, right? AI is going to amplify certain things that aren't positive. I think leadership, think businesses need to start amplifying a conversation around... Are we approaching this the right way? What are the ultimate outcomes that we may see? And can we take that on? So if our developers are increasing the amount of technical debt that we have because we've integrated AI or adopted AI, what are we doing about that? What is the new workflow? What does the human in the loop do on account of this new factor? that we need to take into place because ultimately things like that make their way to the bottom line. And we know that's what CEOs care about. Brian Milner (21:02) Yeah, wow, this is awesome. I just want to clarify with sort of the learning organization ability, just want to make sure I'm clear. What we're saying here is that it's organizations that already have that kind of cultural mindset, right? That the background of a learning organization that see a bigger gain from this, or are we saying that AI can makes the biggest influence of impacting how learning an organization is. Evan Leybourn (21:34) The first, ⁓ the arrow of causation is that learning organizations amplify or improve or are more likely to see a benefit from AI. It's not a bad, and I should say we're not looking at how effectively you can Brian Milner (21:35) Okay. Evan Leybourn (21:57) deploy an AI initiative. It's about a we looked at AI as a black box. Let's assume or as in the cut through the Delphi method, the companies that we were speaking to had been doing these for years. These were mature established organizations. And the so it wasn't looking at how effectively you could deploy AI. But rather You've got AI, it's integrated. Are you seeing a business benefit from it? And those organizations that were learning organizations were more likely to be seeing a benefit, much, much more likely to be seeing a benefit. Brian Milner (22:40) Yeah. There's one phrase that kind of jumped out at me that I thought maybe one or both of you could kind of address here a little bit. I love the phrase, kind of the metaphor that you used in there about shifting from a creator to composer. And I'm just wondering if you can kind of flesh that out a little bit for us. Help us understand what that looks like to move from a creator to composer. Christopher Morales (23:01) Yeah, I'll start, but I think Evan will touch on it as well, because I do think it's a fascinating position, is how I'll phrase that. So when we think about creator to composer, we're talking about a fundamental shift on how a human is utilized within an organization. So if we eliminate AI from the equation, The human, your employees are acting as creators at some level, at some degree. Okay, so I have a media background, so I'm doing a lot of marketing. And I think that this is appropriate to use as an analogy, because I think a lot of marketers are utilizing AI right now. So independent of AI, that marketer is required to take into consideration all of these different factors about the business, create copy, let's say. create a campaign, do all of this real like hands on thoughts and levels. Now you bring AI into the equation and there are certain elements of these tasks that are being supported, offloaded in some cases. I'm not gonna get into my opinions about what is right and what is wrong here, but what I will say is there is a change in that workflow. And so what is... fundamentally at play here is that that marketer is now working in conjunction with something else. And so it is critically important that that marketer develops the skills to compose with the AI in a sense of, now know how to direct, I know how to steer a conversation, steer a direction. in order to get to a meaningful and hopefully valuable output utilizing the assist of the AI. And Evan, I'll toss over to you because this is the area, just so you know, Brian, this area of the report is the one that this podcast could turn into an hour and a half long podcast. Evan Leybourn (25:08) So I'll try not to make it an hour and a half, but just to build on what Chris said. Brian Milner (25:11) Ha Evan Leybourn (25:12) So this created to compose a shift, it changes the role of the human in the loop. It changes the responsibilities. And there's a quote in the report, AI is an unlimited number of junior staff or junior developers if you're a technologist. And that comes with some deep nuance because we all know that junior staff there is a level of oversight and validation required. So if you're creating through your AI colleague, let's call them that, if you're collaborating with AI, the AI is creating, then every human shifts into that composer mode and moves up the value chain. So your junior most employees, right? start to take on what would be traditionally management responsibilities. Now, this isn't in the report, but this is sort what we found after, right? Was that there were three sort of skill areas that needed to be taught to individuals in order to be effective and successful with AI or to collaborate in an AI augmented workforce. The first one was product literacy. So the ability to define and communicate use cases and user stories, design thinking techniques and concepts, the ability to communicate what good looks like in a way that somebody else understands, this somebody else, of course, being the AI counterpart. And product literacy, again, your senior employees have that, but that's got to Everyone now needs that. The second is the skill of judgment or critical thinking. The ability to, for anyone here who has a background in lean, pulling the and on court. The ability to and the confidence to, which are two separate skills, actually say, no, what AI is doing here is wrong. We're going to do something different. I'm going to say something different. I'm going to suggest. I'm going to override AI. I'm going to pull the hand on cord and stop the production line, even though it's going to cost the organization money. But because if I don't, it's going to be much, much worse. And so that ability to use your judgment and the confidence to use judgment, because let's face it, AI can be very compelling in its sounds accurate. So you've to be able to go, hang on, there's something not right here, and use that judgment. And then the third is around feedback loops, or specifically quality control feedback. Because as a creator, the first round of feedback, the first round of quality control is implicit. It exists inside the heads and the hands of the creator. Like you're writing a document or creating a... a marketing campaign, you go, oh, I'm not happy with this, I'll change that, or maybe not that word. You're a software developer and say, oh, I don't like that line, that's not doing what I wanted, I'm gonna change it. So the first round of feedback, the first round of quality is implicit. But once you become a composer, the first round of feedback is explicit, right? Because you're taking what has already been produced. And so the, what we, What we found post report is that a lot of people do not have the skill or haven't, sorry, have not learnt the skill, how to do that first implicit round of feedback explicitly. And so it gets skipped. so AI outputs get passed through into... later stages of quality control and so forth. And obviously they fail more often. So it's a real issue. So it's those three skilled areas that we would say organizations fundamentally need to invest in, in order to enable their workforce to be augmented, to work with AI effectively. And the organizations that have those skills, the organization with who have individuals with those skills at all levels from the junior most employee are more successful. Now, I'm going to add one thing to this. I'm going to slightly go off topic because it is the one of the most common questions that we get when we teach this topic or we talk about it at conferences. And that is Brian Milner (29:44) Yeah Yeah, please do. Evan Leybourn (29:56) If AI replaces your junior employees and your junior employees go up a level, what's the pathway for the next generation to become the senior employee? And this is where I have to give you the bad news that no one has an answer for that yet. These very mature, very advanced organizations Right? Many of them were trying to figure it out. None of them had an answer. and that's the, and I'll be honest, I personally, and this is just Evan's opinion, believe that this will become or must be a society level problem, or solution to that problem. it will require businesses alongside governments, alongside, education institutions to make some fairly substantive shifts and I don't think anyone knows what they are today. Christopher Morales (30:53) Yeah, and I would only say to that, and again, there's so much I would love to inject here, but I will say that this is an opportunity, and I always stress that, because that is a little sobering when you think about that idea. But I really, really strongly encourage organizations that are evaluating this to, I understand the considerations about efficiency and bottom line benefit. Brian Milner (30:53) Yeah. You Christopher Morales (31:20) towards AI, and I appreciate that wholeheartedly. But I think this is a real opportunity for organizations to take a step back and really think about the growth path for the talent that you have in your organization. Because augmenting your workforce with AI, are studies, Harvard Business Review put out a study that indicated that an augmented employee was more productive and enhanced as if it had been working with a senior staff member and collaborated at a level that was equivalent to working within a team. So there are studies that show real benefit to the employee having an augmented relationship with AI. If an organization can take two steps back, think about that pattern, think about that elevation strategy for your talent. you're going to be doing so much more to keep yourself sustainable in what is arguably the most like, you know, I don't know, I don't even know the word I'm looking for. It's, the most chaotic time I can think of for businesses when it comes to technology adoption. Brian Milner (32:23) You Yeah, I agree. But there's also sort of, I don't know if you guys feel this way as well, but to me, there's sort of like this crackling kind of sense of excitement there as well, sort of like living on the frontier that like there's this unexplored country out here that we don't really know where all these things are going to shift out. But gosh, it's fun thinking that we get to be the ones who kind of do that experimentation and find out and see what's the next step in this evolution? What's the next growth? The patterns that we've used previously may not apply anymore or apply in the same way because so much of the foundation underneath that system has changed. So we got to experiment and find new things. I love the call there, the learning organization, that that being the primary thing that If we have that cultural value, then that's really gonna drive this because we can then say, hey, this isn't working anymore, let's try something else. And that's how we end up at a place where we have new practices and new workflows and things that will support this and augment it rather than hampering it being a constraint, like you said, yeah. Christopher Morales (33:48) Well said. Well said. Brian Milner (33:50) Awesome. Well, this is a fascinating discussion. I really could go on for the next couple of hours with you guys on this. is just my kind of hobby or interest area at the moment as well. So I really appreciate you guys doing the work on this and appreciate you sharing it with us and sharing some of the insights. Hey, and the listeners here, hey, they got a bonus from the report, right? You listed extra things that didn't quite make it in the report. Just make sure you understand that listeners, right? You got extra information here listening to us today. ⁓ So just any last words from you guys? Christopher Morales (34:19) Thank Yeah. Evan Leybourn (34:24) Just for the folk listening, treat AI not as a technical problem, but as a human and a business opportunity, requiring human and business level changes. Don't just focus on how good the technology is, because that's not where the constraints nor where the opportunities truly lie. I would also just like to call out that if anyone listening wants to learn more about any of these topics, the capabilities, the domains of business agility, visit the Business Agility Institute website, check out the domains, download the report. But we've also launched an education portfolio and we'll be running a different education course on each of the capabilities over the next, I think it's every two weeks almost until the end of the year. So please come and join us and let's go deep into these topics together. Christopher Morales (35:21) Yeah, and I would just say, Brian, to all the listeners out there, don't fall into what I think is a common fallacy, which is where we're going is predetermined. It's already set in stone. I think as Agilists, we know the power of flexibility, the ability to pivot, and the ability to utilize data and information to inform what our next move is going to be. And I think this is a classic case of you control the narrative. You control what AI looks like in your organization, in your team, in your workflow, and you have the ability to carve out how it impacts your world. And so I encourage people to look at it that way. Empower your humanity, empower your decision making. The AI is here, it's not going anywhere. So embrace it in the best way possible. Brian Milner (36:22) Yeah, it seems oddly ironic or maybe appropriate to quote from the Terminator movie here, but it sounds like what you're saying is no fate, but what you make. Christopher Morales (36:32) Prophetic, Brian, that's prophetic. Evan Leybourn (36:37) I love it. Brian Milner (36:37) Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much. I really appreciate you guys being on and obviously we're gonna have you back. you know, when you guys come out with new stuff like this, it's just amazing to dive deep into it. So thanks for making the time at all kinds of times of the day and coming on and sharing this with us. Christopher Morales (36:55) You're welcome. Evan Leybourn (36:56) Thank you.

Hey HBs! We're back with Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books  to recap A SOUL TO KEEP by Opal Reyne! Our duskwalker and captive (?) are just homesteading while they get to know each other, complete with growing their own food, crafting protection charms, and dyeing their own clothes. Is this actually the dream, or what? Except for all the demons who want to eat her. That's not ideal. Since this is a crossover episode, you'll get parts 1 and 2 here like normal and then part 3 will be on Smart Podcast, Trashy Books this Friday! Subscribe to the show it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc. This week's sponsor: A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL by Alyxandra Harvey! This delicious historical is just as wicked as it sounds! It's an enemies-to-lovers in which a bookstore owning heroine blackmails the most dangerous man in London to help save her sister AND solve a murder... and that's only if they can get navigate through all that sizzling banter and electric sexual tension. GET IT NOW HURRY DON'T WAIT THE VOICE IS AMAZING. Want more of us? Check out our PATREON! This Friday Patrons and Apple Podcast subscribers are getting a squeepisode on the first three books in The Games We Play in Granville series by DJ Jamison! Thank you for keeping Mel sane, fluffy MM romance authors! Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast (at) gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms Tiktok @heaving_bosoms  Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more.

Mi entrevistado en este episodio es Carlos A. Scolari, Catedrático del Departamento de Comunicación de la Universitat Pompeu Fabra – Barcelona. Ha sido Investigador Principal de diversos proyectos de investigación internacionales y estatales, desde el proyecto H2020 TRANSLITERACY (entre 2015 y 2018) hasta el proyecto LITERAC_IA, que comenzó en 2024 y dirige junto a María del Mar Guerrero. Sus últimos libros son Cultura Snack (2020), La guerra de las plataformas (2022) y Sobre la evolución de los medios (2024). Ahora está trabajando en un libro sobre los fósiles mediáticos.Notas del Episodio* Historia de ecologia de los medios* Historia de Carlos* Diferencias entre el anglosfero y el hispanosfero* La coevolucion entre tecnologia y humanos* La democratizacion de los medios* Evolucion de los medios* Alienacion y addiccion* Como usar los medios conscientementeTareaCarlos A. Scolari - Pagina Personal - Facebook - Instagram - Twitter - Escolar GoogleSobre la evolución de los mediosHipermediaciones (Libros)Transcrito en espanol (English Below)Chris: [00:00:00] Bienvenido al podcast el fin de turismo Carlos. Gracias por poder hablar conmigo hoy. Es un gran gusto tener tu presencia aquí conmigo hoy. Carlos: No gracias a ti, Chris, por la invitación. Es un enorme placer honor charlar contigo, gran viajero y bueno, yo nunca investigué directamente el tema del turismo.Pero bueno, entiendo que vamos a hablar de ecología de los medios y temas colaterales que nos pueden servir para entender mejor, darle un sentido a todo esto que está pasando en el mundo del turismo. Bueno, yo trabajo en Barcelona. No vivo exactamente en la ciudad, pero trabajo, en la universidad en Barcelona, en la zona céntrica.Y bueno, cada vez que voy a la ciudad cada día se incrementa la cantidad de turistas y se incrementa el debate sobre el turismo, en todas sus dimensiones. Así que es un tema que está la orden del día, no? Chris: Sí, pues me imagino que aunque si no te gusta pensar o si no quieres pensar en el turismo allá, es inevitable tener como una enseñanza [00:01:00] personal de esa industria.Carlos: Sí, hasta que se está convirtiendo casi en un criterio taxonómico, no? ...de clasificación o ciudades con mucho turista ciudades o lugares sin turistas que son los más buscados hasta que se llenan de turistas. Entonces estamos en un círculo vicioso prácticamente. Chris: Ya pues, que en algún memento se que se cambia, se rompe el ciclo, al menos para dar cuenta de lo que estamos haciendo con el comportamiento.Y, yo entiendo que eso también tiene mucho que ver con la ecología de los medios, la falta de capacidad de entender nuestros comportamientos, actitudes, pensamientos, sentimientos, etcétera. Entonces, antes de seguir por tu trabajo y obras, este me gustaría preguntarte de tu camino y de tu vida.Primero me pregunto si podrías definir para nuestros oyentes qué es la ecología de los medios y cómo te [00:02:00] interesó en este campo? Cómo llegaste a dedicar a tu vida a este estudio?Carlos: Sí. A ver un poco. Hay una, esta la historia oficial. Diríamos de la ecología de los medios o en inglés "media ecology," es una campo de investigación, digamos, eh, que nace en los años 60. Hay que tener en cuenta sobre todos los trabajos de Marshall McLuhan, investigador canadiense muy famoso a nivel mundial. Era quizá el filósofo investigador de los medios más famosos en los años 60 y 70.Y un colega de el, Neil Postman, que estaba en la universidad de New York en New York University un poco, digamos entre la gente que rodeaba estos dos referentes, no, en los años 60, de ahí se fue cocinando, diríamos, lo que después se llamó la media ecology. Se dice que el primero que habló de media ecology que aplicó esta metáfora a los medios, fue el mismo Marshall McLuhan en algunas, conversaciones privadas, [00:03:00] cartas que se enviaban finales dos años 50, a principios de los 60, se enviaban los investigadores investigadora de estos temas?Digamos la primera aparición pública del concepto de media ecology fue una conferencia en el año 1968 de Neil Postman. Era una intervención pública que la hablaba de un poco como los medios nos transforman y transforman los medios formar un entorno de nosotros crecemos, nos desarrollamos, no. Y nosotros no somos muy conscientes a veces de ese medio que nos rodea y nos modela.El utilizó por primera vez el concepto de media ecology en una conferencia pública. Y ya, si vamos a principio de los años 70, el mismo Postman crea en NYU, en New York University crea el primer programa en media ecology. O sea que ya en el 73, 74 y 75, empieza a salir lo que yo llamo la segunda generación, de gente [00:04:00] formada algunos en estos cursos de New York.Por ejemplo Christine Nystrom fue la primera tesis doctoral sobre mi ecology; gente como, Paul Levinson que en el año 1979 defiende una tesis doctoral dirigida por Postman sobre evolución de los medios, no? Y lo mismo pasaba en Toronto en los años 70. El Marshall McLuhan falleció en el diciembre del 80.Digamos que los años 70 fueron su última década de producción intelectual. Y hay una serie de colaboradores en ese memento, gente muy joven como Robert Logan, Derrick De Kerchove, que después un poco siguieron trabajando un poco todo esta línea, este enfoque. Y ahí hablamos del frente canadiense, eh?Toda esta segunda generación fue desarrollando, fue ampliando aplicando. No nos olvidemos de Eric McLuhan, el hijo de Marshall, que también fue parte de toda esta movida. [00:05:00] Y si no recuerdo mal en el año 2000, se crea la asociación la Media Ecology Association, que es la Asociación de Ecología de los Medios, que es una organización académica, científica, que nuclea a la gente que se ocupa de media ecology. Si pensamos a nivel más científico epistemológico, podemos pensar esta metáfora de la ecología de los medios desde dos o tres perspectivas. Por un lado, esta idea de que los medios crean ambientes. Esta es una idea muy fuerte de Marsha McLuhan, de Postman y de todo este grupo, no? Los medios - "medio" entendido en sentido muy amplio, no, cualquier tecnología podría ser un medio para ellos.Para Marsha McLuhan, la rueda es un medio. Un un telescopio es un medio. Una radio es un medio y la televisión es un medio, no? O sea, cualquier tecnología puede considerarse un medio. Digamos que estos medios, estas tecnologías, generan un [00:06:00] ambiente que a nosotros nos transforma. Transforma nuestra forma, a veces de pensar nuestra forma de percibir el mundo, nuestra concepción del tiempo del espacio.Y nosotros no somos conscientes de ese cambio. Pensemos que, no sé, antes de 1800, si alguien tenía que hacer un viaje de mil kilómetros (y acá nos acercamos al turismo) kilómetros era un viaje que había que programarlo muchos meses antes. Con la llegada del tren, ya estamos en 1800, esos kilómetros se acortaron. Digamos no? Ahí vemos como si a nosotros hoy nos dicen 1000 kilómetros.Bueno, si, tomamos un avión. Es una hora, una hora y cuarto de viaje. Hoy 1000 kilómetro es mucho menos que hace 200 años y incluso a nivel temporal, se a checo el tiempo. No? Todo eso es consecuencia, digamos este cambio, nuestra percepción es consecuencia de una serie de medios y tecnologías.El ferrocarril. Obviamente, hoy tenemos los aviones. Las mismas redes digitales que, un poco nos han llevado esta idea de "tiempo [00:07:00] real," esta ansiedad de querer todo rápido, no? También esa es consecuencia de estos cambios ambientales generados por los medios y las tecnologías, eh? Esto es un idea muy fuerte, cuando McLuhan y Postman hablaban de esto en los años 60, eran fuertes intuiciones que ellos tenían a partir de una observación muy inteligente de la realidad. Hoy, las ciencias cognitivas, mejor las neurociencia han confirmado estas hipótesis. O sea, hoy existen una serie de eh metodología para estudiar el cerebro y ya se ve como las tecnologías.Los medios afectan incluso la estructura física del cerebro. No? Otro tema que esto es histórico, que los medios afectan nuestra memoria. Esto viene de Platón de hace 2500 años, que él decía que la escritura iba a matar la memoria de los hombres. Bueno, podemos pensar nosotros mismos, no, eh?O por lo menos esta generación, que [00:08:00] vivimos el mundo antes y después de las aplicaciones móviles. Yo hace 30 años, 25 años, tenía mi memoria 30-40 números telefónicos. Hoy no tengo ninguno. Y en esa pensemos también el GPS, no? En una época, los taxistas de Londres, que es una ciudad latica se conocían a memoria la ciudad. Y hoy eso, ya no hace falta porque tienen GPS.Y cuando han ido a estudiar el cerebro de los taxistas de Londres, han visto que ciertas áreas del cerebro se han reducido, digamos, así, que son las áreas que gestionaban la parte espacial. Esto ya McLuhan, lo hablaba en los años 60. Decía como que los cambios narcotizan ciertas áreas de la mente decía él.Pero bueno, vemos que mucha investigación empírica, bien de vanguardia científica de neurociencia está confirmando todas estos pensamientos, todas estas cosas que se decían a los años 60 en adelante, por la media ecology. Otra posibilidad es entender [00:09:00] esto como un ecosistema de medios, Marshall McLuhan siempre decía no le podemos dar significado,no podemos entender un medio aislado de los otros medios. Como que los medios adquieren sentido sólo en relación con otros medios. También Neil Postman y mucha otra gente de la escuela de la media ecology, defiende esta posición, de que, bueno, los medios no podemos entender la historia del cine si no la vinculamos a los videojuegos, si no lo vinculamos a la aparición de la televisión.Y así con todos los medios, no? Eh? Hay trabajos muy interesantes. Por ejemplo, de como en el siglo 19, diferentes medios, podríamos decir, que coevolucionaron entre sí. La prensa, el telégrafo. El tren, que transportaba los diarios también, aparecen las agencias de noticias. O sea, vemos cómo es muy difícil entender el desarrollo de la prensa en el siglo XIX y no lo vinculamos al teléfono, si no lo vinculamos a la fotografía, si no lo vinculamos a la radio fotografía, [00:10:00] también más adelante.O sea, esta idea es muy fuerte. No también es otro de los principios para mí fundamentales de esta visión, que sería que los medios no están solos, forman parte de un ecosistema y si nosotros queremos entender lo que está pasando y cómo funciona todo esto, no podemos, eh, analizar los medios aislados del resto.Hay una tercera interpretación. Ya no sé si es muy metafórica. No? Sobre todo, gente en Italia como el investigador Fausto Colombo de Milán o Michele Cometa, es un investigador de Sicilia, Michele Cometa que él habla de l giro, el giro ecomedial. Estos investigadores están moviéndose en toda una concepción según la cual, estamos en único ecosistema mediático que está contaminado.Está contaminado de "fake news" está contaminado de noticias falsas, está contaminado de discursos de odio, etcétera, etc. Entonces ellos, digamos, retoman esta metáfora ecológica para decir [00:11:00] precisamente tenemos que limpiar este ecosistema así como el ecosistema natural está contaminado, necesita una intervención de limpieza, digamos así de purificación, eh? También el ecosistema mediático corre el mismo peligro, no? Y esta gente también llama la atención, y yo estoy muy cerca de esta línea de trabajo sobre la dimensión material de la comunicación. Y esto también tiene que ver con el turismo, queriendo, no? El impacto ambiental que tiene la comunicación hoy.Entrenar una inteligencia artificial implica un consumo eléctrico brutal; mantener funcionando las redes sociales, eh, tiktok, youtube, lo que sea, implica millones de servidores funcionando que chupan energía eléctrica y hay que enfriarlos además, consumiendo aún más energía eléctrica. Y eso tiene un impacto climático no indiferente.Así que, bueno, digamos, vemos que está metáfora de lo ecológico, aplicado los medios da para dos o tres interpretaciones. Chris: Mmm. [00:12:00] Wow. Siento que cuando yo empecé tomando ese curso de de Andrew McLuhan, el nieto de Marshall, como te mencioné, cambio mi perspectiva totalmente - en el mundo, en la manera como entiendo y como no entiendo también las nuestras tecnologías, mis movimientos, etcétera, pero ya, por una persona que tiene décadas de estudiando eso, me gustaría saber de de como empezaste. O sea, Andrew, por ejemplo tiene la excusa de su linaje, no de su papá y su abuelo.Pero entonces, como un argentino joven empezó aprendiendo de ecología de medios. Carlos: Bueno, yo te comento. Yo estudié comunicación en argentina en Rosario. Terminé la facultad. El último examen el 24 de junio del 86, que fue el día que nacía el Lionel Messi en Rosario, en Argentina el mismo día. Y [00:13:00] yo trabajaba, colaboraba en una asignatura en una materia que era teorías de la comunicación.E incluso llegué a enseñar hasta el año 90, fueron tres años, porque ya después me fui vivir Italia. En esa época, nosotros leíamos a Marshall McLuhan, pero era una lectura muy sesgada ideológicamente. En América latina, tú lo habrás visto en México. Hay toda una historia, una tradición de críticas de los medios, sobre todo, a todo lo que viene de estados unidos y Canadá está muy cerca de Estados Unidos. Entonces, digamos que en los años 70 y 80 y y hasta hoy te diría muchas veces a Marshall McLuhan se lo criticó mucho porque no criticaba los medios. O sea el te tenía una visión. Él decía, Neil Postman, si tenía una visión muy crítica. Pero en ese caso, este era una de las grandes diferencias entre Postman y McLuhan, que Marshall McLuhan, al menos en [00:14:00] público, él no criticaba los medios. Decía bueno, yo soy un investigador, yo envío sondas. Estoy explorando lo que pasa. Y él nunca se sumó... Y yo creo que eso fue muy inteligente por parte de él... nunca se sumó a este coro mundial de crítica a los medios de comunicación. En esa época, la televisión para mucha gente era un monstruo.Los niños no tenían que ver televisión. Un poco lo que pasa hoy con los móviles y lo que pasa hoy con tiktok. En esa época en la televisión, el monstruo. Entonces, había mucha investigación en Estados Unidos, que ya partía de la base que la televisión y los medios son malos para la gente. Vemos que es una historia que se repite. Yo creo que en ese sentido, Marshall McLuhan, de manera muy inteligente, no se sumó ese coro crítico y él se dedico realmente a pensar los medios desde una perspectiva mucho más libre, no anclada por esta visión yo creo demasiado ideologizada, que en América Latina es muy fuerte. Es muy fuerte. Esto no implica [00:15:00] bajar la guardia, no ser crítico. Al contrario.Pero yo creo que el el verdadero pensamiento crítico parte de no decir tanto ideológica, decimos "esto ya es malo. Vamos a ver esto." Habrá cosas buenas. Habrá cosas mala. Habrá cosa, lo que es innegable, que los medios mas ya que digamos son buenos son va, nos transforman. Y yo creo que eso fue lo importante de la idea McLuhaniana. Entonces mi primer acercamiento a McLuhan fue una perspectiva de los autores críticos que, bueno, sí, viene de Estados Unidos, no critica los medios. Vamos a criticarlo a nosotros a él, no? Y ese fue mi primer acercamiento a Marshall McLuhan. Yo me fui a Italia en la decada de 90. Estuve casi ocho años fuera de la universidad, trabajando en medios digitales, desarrollo de páginas, webs, productos multimédia y pretexto. Y a finales de los 90, dije quiero volver a la universidad. Quiero ser un doctorado. Y dije, "quiero hacer un doctorado. Bueno. Estando en Italia, el doctorado iba a ser de semiótica." Entonces hizo un [00:16:00] doctorado. Mi tesis fue sobre semiótica de las interfaces.Ahi tuve una visión de las interfaces digitales que consideran que, por ejemplo, los instrumentos como el mouse o joystick son extensiones de nuestro cuerpo, no? El mouse prolonga la mano y la mete dentro de la pantalla, no? O el joystick o cualquier otro elemento de la interfaz digital? Claro. Si hablamos de que el mouse es una extensión de la mano, eso es una idea McLuhaniana.Los medios como extensiones del ser humano de sujeto. Entonces, claro ahi yo releo McLuhan en italiano a finales de los años 90, y me reconcilio con McLuhan porque encuentro muchas cosas interesantes para entender precisamente la interacción con las máquinas digitales. En el a 2002, me mudo con mi familia a España. Me reintegro la vida universitaria. [00:17:00] Y ahí me pongo a estudiar la relación entre los viejos y los nuevos medios. Entonces recupero la idea de ecosistema. Recupero toda la nueva, la idea de ecología de mi ecology. Y me pongo a investigar y releer a McLuhan por tercera vez. Y a leerlo en profundidad a él y a toda la escuela de mi ecology para poder entender las dinámicas del actual ecosistema mediático y entender la emergencia de lo nuevo y cómo lo viejo lucha por adaptarse. En el 2009, estuve tres meses trabajando con Bob Logan en the University of Toronto. El año pasado, estuve en el congreso ahí y tuvimos dos pre conferencias con gente con Paolo Granata y todo el grupo de Toronto.O sea que, tengo una relación muy fuerte con todo lo que se producía y se produce en Toronto. Y bueno, yo creo que, a mí hoy, la media ecology, me sirve muchísimo junto a otras disciplina como la semiótica para poder entender el ecosistema [00:18:00] mediático actual y el gran tema de investigación mío hoy, que es la evolución del la ecosistema mediático.Mm, digamos que dentro de la media ecology, empezando de esa tesis doctoral del 79 de Paul Levinson, hay toda una serie de contribuciones, que un poco son los que han ido derivando en mi último libro que salió el año pasado en inglés en Routledge, que se llama The Evolution of Media y acaba de salir en castellano.Qué se llama Sobre La Evolución De los Medios. En la teoría evolutiva de los medios, hay mucha ecología de los medios metidos. Chris: Claro, claro. Pues felicidad es Carlos. Y vamos a volver en un ratito de ese tema de la evolución de medios, porque yo creo que es muy importante y obviamente es muy importante a ti. Ha sido como algo muy importante en tu trabajo. Pero antes de de salir de esa esquina de pensamiento, hubo una pregunta que me mandó Andrew McLuhan para ti, que ya ella contestaste un poco, pero este tiene que ver entre las diferencias en los [00:19:00] mundos de ecología de medios anglofonos y hispánicos. Y ya mencionaste un poco de eso, pero desde los tiempos en los 80 y noventas, entonces me gustaría saber si esas diferencias siguen entre los mundos intelectuales, en el mundo anglofono o hispánico.Y pues, para extender su pregunta un poco, qué piensas sería como un punto o tema o aspecto más importante de lo que uno de esos mundos tiene que aprender el otro en el significa de lo que falta, quizás. Carlos: Si nos focalizamos en el trabajo de Marshall McLuhan, no es que se lo criticó sólo de América Latina.En Europa no caía simpático Marshall McLuhan en los 60, 70. Justamente por lo mismo, porque no criticaba el sistema capitalista de medios. La tradición europea, la tradición de la Escuela de Frankfurt, la escuela de una visión anti [00:20:00] capitalista que denuncia la ideología dominante en los medio de comunicación.Eso es lo que entra en América Latina y ahí rebota con mucha fuerza. Quizá la figura principal que habla desde América Latina, que habló mucho tiempo de América latina es Armand Mattelart. Matterlart es un teórico en la comunicación, investigador de Bélgica. Y él lo encontramos ya a mediados de los años 60 finales de los 60 en Chile en un memento muy particular de la historia de Chile donde había mucha politización y mucha investigación crítica, obviamente con el con con con con el capitalismo y con el imperialismo estadounidense. Quizá la la obra clásica de ese memento es el famoso libro de Mattelart y Dorfman, eh, eh? Para Leer El Pato Donald, que donde ellos desmontan toda la estructura ideológica capitalista, imperialista, que había en los cics en las historietas del pato Donald.Ellos dicen esto se publicó a [00:21:00] principio los 70. Es quizá el libro más vendido de la comic latinoamericana hasta el día de hoy, eh? Ellos dicen hay ideología en la literatura infantil. Con el pato Donald, le están llenando la cabeza a nuestros niños de toda una visión del mundo muy particular.Si uno le el pato Donald de esa época, por lo menos, la mayor parte de las historia del pato Donald, que era, había que a buscar un tesoro y adónde. Eran lugares africana, peruviana, incaica o sea, eran países del tercer mundo. Y ahí el pato Donald, con sus sobrinos, eran lo suficientemente inteligentes para volverse con el oro a Patolandia.Claro. Ideológicamente. Eso no se sostiene. Entonces, la investigación hegemónica en esa época en Europa, en Francia, la semiología pero sobre todo, en América latina, era ésa. Hay que estudiar el mensaje. Hay que estudiar el contenido, porque ahí está la ideología [00:22:00] dominante del capitalismo y del imperialismo.En ese contexto, entra McLuhan. Se traduce McLuhan y que dice McLuhan: el medio es el mensaje. No importa lo que uno lee, lo que nos transforma es ver televisión, leer comics, escuchar la radio. Claro, iba contramano del mainstream de la investigación en comunicación. O sea, digamos que en América latina, la gente que sigue en esa línea que todavía existe y es fuerte, no es una visión muy crítica de todo esto, todavía hoy, a Marshal McLuhan le cae mal, pero lo mismo pasa en Europa y otros países donde la gente que busca una lectura crítica anti-capitalista y anti-sistémica de la comunicación, no la va a encontrar nunca en Marshall McLuhan, por más que sea de América latina, de de de Europa o de Asia. Entonces yo no radicaría todo esto en un ámbito anglosajón y el latinoamericano. Después, bueno, la hora de McLuhan es bastante [00:23:00] polisemica. Admite como cualquier autor así, que tiene un estilo incluso de escritura tan creativo en forma de mosaico.No era un escritor Cartesiano ordenadito y formal. No, no. McLuhan era una explosión de ideas muy bien diseñada a propósito, pero era una explosión de ideas. Por eso siempre refrescan tener a McLuhan. Entonces normal que surjan interpretaciones diferentes, no? En estados unidos en Canadá, en Inglaterra, en Europa continental o en Latinoamérica o en Japón, obviamente, no? Siendo un autor que tiene estas características. Por eso yo no en no anclaría esto en cuestiones territoriales. Cuando uno busca un enfoque que no tenga esta carga ideológica para poder entender los medios, que no se limite sólo a denunciar el contenido.McLuhan y la escuela de la ecología de los medios es fundamental y es un aporte muy, muy importante en ese sentido, no? Entonces, bueno, yo creo que McLuhan tuvo [00:24:00] detractores en Europa, tuvo detractores en América latina y cada tanto aparece alguno, pero yo creo que esto se ido suavizando. Yo quiero que, como que cada vez más se lo reivindica McLuhan.La gente que estudia, por ejemplo, en Europa y en América latina, que quizá en su época criticaron a McLuhan, todas las teorías de la mediatización, por ejemplo, terminan coincidiendo en buena parte de los planteos de la media ecology. Hoy que se habla mucho de la materialidad de la comunicación, los nuevos materialismos, yo incluyo a Marshall McLuhan en uno de los pioneros des esta visión también de los nuevos materialismos. Al descentrar el análisis del contenido, al medio, a la cosa material, podemos considerar a macl también junto a Bruno Latour y otra gente como pionero, un poco de esta visión de no quedarse atrapados en el giro lingüístico, no, en el contenido, en el giro semiótico e incorporar también la dimensión material de la comunicación y el medio en sí.[00:25:00] Chris: Muy bien. Muy bien, ya. Wow, es tanto, pero lo aprecio mucho. Gracias, Carlos. Y me gustaría seguir preguntándote un poco ahora de tu propio trabajo. Tienes un capítulo en tu libro. Las Leyes de la Interfaz titulado "Las Interfaces Co-evolucionan Con Sus Usuarios" donde escribes "estas leyes de la interfaz no desprecian a los artefactos, sus inventores ó las fuerzas sociales. Solo se limitan á insertarlos á una red socio técnica de relaciones, intercambios y transformaciones para poder analizarlos desde una perspectiva eco-evolutiva."Ahora, hay un montón ahí en este paragrafito. Pero entonces, me gustaría preguntarte, cómo vea los humanos [00:26:00] co-evolucionando con sus tecnologías? Por ejemplo, nuestra forma de performatividad en la pantalla se convierte en un hábito más allá de la pantalla.Carlos: Ya desde antes del homo sapiens, los homínidos más avanzados, digamos en su momento, creaban instrumentos de piedra. Hemos descubierto todos los neandertales tenían una cultura muy sofisticada, incluso prácticas casi y religiosas, más allá de la cuestión material de la construcción de artefactos. O sea que nuestra especie es impensable sin la tecnología, ya sea un hacha de piedra o ya sea tiktok o un smartphone. Entonces, esto tenemos que tenerlo en cuenta cuando analizamos cualquier tipo de de interacción cotidiana, estamos rodeados de tecnología y acá, obviamente, la idea McLuhaniana es fundamental. Nosotros creamos estos medios. Nosotros creamos estas tecnologías.Estas tecnologías también nos reformatean. [00:27:00] McLuhan, no me suena que haya usado el concepto de coevolución, pero está ahí. Está hablando de eso. Ahora bien. Hay una coevolución si se quiere a larguísimo plazo, que, por ejemplo, sabemos que el desarrollo de instrumentos de piedra, el desarrollo del fuego, hizo que el homo sapiens no necesitara una mandíbula tan grande para poder masticar los alimentos. Y eso produce todo un cambio, que achicó la mandíbula le dejó más espacio en el cerebro, etcétera, etcétera. Eso es una coevolución en término genético, digamos a larguísimo plazo, okey. También la posición eréctil, etcétera, etcétera. Pero, digamos que ya ahí había tecnologías humanas coevolucionando con estos cambios genéticos muy, muy lentos.Pero ahora tenemos también podemos decir esta co evolución ya a nivel de la estructura neuronal, entonces lo ha verificado la neurociencia, como dije antes. Hay cambio físico en la estructura del cerebro a lo largo de la vida de una persona debido a la interacción con ciertas tecnologías. Y por qué pasa eso?Porque [00:28:00] la producción, creación de nuevos medios, nuevas tecnologías se ido acelerando cada vez más. Ahi podemos hacer una curva exponencial hacia arriba, para algunos esto empezó hace 10,000 años. Para algunos esto se aceleró con la revolución industrial. Algunos hablan de la época el descubrimiento de América.Bueno, para alguno esto es un fenómeno de siglo xx. El hecho es que en términos casi geológicos, esto que hablamos del antropoceno es real y está vinculado al impacto del ser humano sobre nuestro ambiente y lo tecnológico es parte de ese proceso exponencial de co evolución. Nosotros hoy sentimos un agobio frente a esta aceleración de la tecnología y nuestra necesidad. Quizá de adaptarnos y coevolucionar con ella. Como esto de que todo va muy rápido. Cada semana hay un problema nuevo, una aplicación nueva. Ahora tenemos la inteligencia artificial, etc, etcétera. Pero esta sensación [00:29:00] no es nueva. Es una sensación de la modernidad. Si uno lee cosas escritas en 1,800 cuando llega el tren también la gente se quejaba que el mundo iba muy rápido. Dónde iremos a parar con este caballo de hierro que larga humo no? O sea que esta sensación de velocidad de cambio rápido ya generaciones anteriores la vivían. Pero evidentemente, el cambio hoy es mucho más rápido y denso que hace dos siglos. Y eso es real también. Así que, bueno, nuestra fe se va coevolucionando y nos vamos adaptando como podemos, yo esta pregunta se la hice hace 10 años a Kevin Kelly, el primer director de la revista Wire que lo trajimos a Barcelona y el que siempre es muy optimista. Kevin Kelly es determinista tecnológico y optimista al mismo tiempo. Él decía que "que bueno que el homo sapiens lo va llevando bastante bien. Esto de co evolucionar con la tecnología." Otra gente tiene una [00:30:00] visión radicalmente opuesta, que esto es el fin del mundo, que el homo sapiens estamos condenados a desaparecer por esta co evolución acelerada, que las nuevas generaciones son cada vez más estúpidas.Yo no creo eso. Creo, como McLuhan, que los medios nos reforman, nos cambian algunas cosas quizás para vivir otras quizá no tanto, pero no, no tengo una visión apocalíptica de esto para nada. Chris: Bien, bien. Entonces cuando mencionaste lo de la televisión, yo me acuerdo mucho de de mi niñez y no sé por qué. Quizás fue algo normal en ese tiempo para ver a tele como un monstruo, como dijiste o quizás porque mis mis papás eran migrantes pero fue mucho de su idea de esa tecnología y siempre me dijo como no, no, no quédate ahí tan cerca y eso.Entonces, aunque lo aceptaron, ellos comprendieron que el poder [00:31:00] de la tele que tenía sobre las personas. Entonces ahora todos, parece a mí, que todos tienen su propio canal, no su propio programación, o el derecho o privilegio de tener su propio canal o múltiples canales.Entonces, es una gran pregunta, pero cuáles crees que son las principales consecuencias de darle a cada uno su propio programa en el sentido de como es el efecto de hacer eso, de democratizar quizás la tecnología en ese sentido? Carlos: Cuando dices su propio canal, te refieres a la posibilidad de emitir o construir tu propia dieta mediática.Chris: Bueno primero, pero puede ser ambos, claro, no? O sea, mi capacidad de tener un perfil o cuenta mía personal. Y luego como el fin del turismo, no? Y luego otro. Carlos: Sí, a ver. Yo creo que, bueno, esto fue el gran cambio radical que empezó a darse a partir la década del 2000 o [00:32:00] sea, hace 25 años. Porque la web al principio sí era una red mundial en los años 90. Pero claro la posibilidad de compartir un contenido y que todo el mundo lo pudiera ver, estaba muy limitado a crear una página web, etcétera. Cuando aparecen las redes sociales o las Web 2.0 como se la llamaba en esa época y eso se suma los dispositivos móviles, ahí se empieza a generar esta cultura tan difundida de la creación de contenido. Hasta digamos que hasta ese momento quien generaba contenido era más o menos un profesional en la radio y en la televisión, pero incluso en la web o en la prensa o el cine. Y a partir de ahí se empieza, digamos, a abrir el juego. En su momento, esto fue muy bien saludado fue qué bueno! Esto va nos va a llevar a una sociedad más democrática. 25 años después, claro, estamos viendo el lado oscuro solamente. Yo creo que el error hace 25 años era pensar solo las posibilidades [00:33:00] buenas, optimistas, de esto. Y hoy me parece que estamos enredados en discursos solamente apocalípticos no?No vemos las cosas buenas, vemos solo las cosas malas. Yo creo que hay de las dos cosas hoy. Claro, hoy cualquier persona puede tener un canal, sí, pero no todo el mundo crea un canal. Los niveles de participación son muy extraños, o sea, la mayor parte de la población de los usuarios y usuarias entre en las redes. Mira. Mete un me gusta. Quizá un comentario. Cada tanto comparte una foto. Digamos que los "heavy users" o "heavy producers" de contenido son siempre una minoría, ya sea profesionales, ya sea influencers, streamers, no? Es siempre, yo no sé si acá estamos en un 20-80 o un 10-90 son estas curvas que siempre fue así? No? Si uno ve la Wikipedia, habrá un 5-10 por ciento de gente que genera contenido mucho menos incluso. Y un 90 por ciento que se [00:34:00] beneficia del trabajo de una minoría. Esto invierte la lógica capitalista? La mayoría vive de la minoría y esto pasaba antes también en otros, en otros sistemas. O sea que en ese sentido, es sólo una minoría de gente la que genera contenido de impacto, llamémoslo así, de alcance mayor.Pero bueno, yo creo que el hecho de que cualquier persona pueda dar ese salto para mí, está bien. Genera otra serie de problemas, no? Porque mientras que genera contenido, es un profesional o un periodista, digamos, todavía queda algo de normas éticas y que deben cumplir no? Yo veo que en el mundo de los streamers, el mundo de los Tik tokers etcétera, etcétera, lo primero que ellos dicen es, nosotros no somos periodistas. Y de esa forma, se inhiben de cualquier, control ético o de respeto a normas éticas profesionales. Por otro lado, las plataformas [00:35:00] Meta, Google, todas. Lo primero que te dicen es nosotros no somos medio de comunicación. Los contenidos los pone la gente.Nosotros no tenemos nada que ver con eso. Claro, ellos también ahí se alejan de toda la reglamentación. Por eso hubo que hacer. Europa y Estados Unidos tuvo que sacar leyes especiales porque ellos decían no, no, las leyes del periodismo a nosotros no nos alcanzan. Nosotros no somos editores de contenidos.Y es una mentira porque las plataformas sí editan contenido a través los algoritmos, porque nos están los algoritmos, nos están diciendo que podemos ver y que no está en primera página. No están filtrando información, o sea que están haciendo edición. Entonces, como que se generan estas equivocaciones.Y eso es uno de los elementos que lleva esta contaminación que mencioné antes en el en los ámbitos de la comunicación. Pero yo, si tuviera que elegir un ecosistema con pocos enunciadores pocos medios controlados por profesionales y este ecosistema [00:36:00] caótico en parte contaminado con muchos actores y muchas voces, yo prefiero el caos de hoy a la pobreza del sistema anterior.Prefiero lidiar, pelearme con y estar buscar de resolver el problema de tener mucha información, al problema de la censura y tener sólo dos, tres puntos donde se genera información. Yo he vivido en Argentina con dictadura militar con control férreo de medios, coroneles de interventores en la radio y la televisión que controlaban todo lo que se decía.Y yo prefiero el caos de hoy, aún con fake news y todo lo que quieras. Prefiero el caos de hoy a esa situación. Chris: Sí, sí, sí, sí. Es muy fuerte de pensar en eso para la gente que no han vivido en algo así, no? Osea algunos familiares extendidos han vivido en mundos comunistas, en el pasado en el este de Europa y no se hablan [00:37:00] exactamente así.Pero, se se hablan, no? Y se se dicen que lo que lo que no tenía ni lo que no tiene por control y por fuerza. Entonces, en ese como mismo sentido de lo que falta de la memoria vivida, me gustaría preguntarte sobre tu nuevo libro. Y sobre la evolución de medios. Entonces me gustaría preguntarte igual por nuestros oyentes que quizás no han estudiado mucho de la ecología de los medios Para ti qué es la evolución de los medios y por qué es importante para nuestro cambiante y comprensión del mundo. O sea, igual al lado y no solo pegado a la ecología de medios, pero la evolución de los medios,Carlos: Sí, te cuento ahí hay una disciplina, ya tradicional que es la historia y también está la historia de la comunicación y historia de los medios. [00:38:00] Hay libros muy interesantes que se titulan Historia de la Comunicación de Gutenberg a Internet o Historia de la Comunicación del Papiro a Tiktok. Entonces, qué pasa? Esos libros te dicen bueno, estaba el papiro, después vino el pergamino, el manuscrito, después en 1450 vino Gutenberg, llegó el libro. Pero eso el libro no te cuentan que pasó con el manuscrito, ni que pasó con el papiro. Y te dicen que llega la radio en 1920 y en 1950 llega la televisión y no te dicen que pasó con la radio, que pasó con el cine.Son historias lineales donde un medio parece que va sustituyendo al otro. Y después tenemos muchos libros muy buenos también. Historia de la radio, historia de la televisión, historia de internet, historia del periodismo. Como dije antes, retomando una idea, de McLuhan no podemos entender los medios aislados.Yo no puedo entender la evolución de la radio si no la vinculo a la prensa, a [00:39:00] la televisión y otro al podcast. Okey, entonces digo, necesitamos un campo de investigación, llamémoslo una disciplina en construcción, que es una teoría y también es metodología para poder entender el cambio mediático, todas estas transformaciones del ecosistema de medios a largo plazo y que no sea una sucesión de medios, sino, ver cómo esa red de medios fue evolucionando. Y eso yo lo llamo una teoría evolutiva o una "media evolution" Y es lo que estoy trabajando ahora. Claro, esta teoría, este enfoque, este campo de investigación toma muchas cosas de la ecología de los medios, empezando por Marshall McLuhan pero también gente de la tradición previa a la media ecology como Harold Innis, el gran historiador, economista de la comunicación y de la sociedad, que fue quizás el intelectual más famoso en Canadá en la primera mitad del siglo XX. Harold Innis que influenció mucho a Marshall McLuhan [00:40:00] Marshall McLuhann en la primera página de Gutenberg Galaxy, dice este libro no es otra cosa que una nota al pie de página de la obra de Harold Innis Entonces, Harold Innis que hizo una historia de los tiempos antiguos poniendo los medios al centro de esa historia. Para mí es fundamental. Incluso te diría a veces más que McLuhan, como referencia, a la hora de hacer una teoría evolutiva del cambio mediático. Y después, obviamente tomo muchas cosas de la historia de los medios.Tomo muchas cosas de la arqueología de los medios (media archeology). Tomo cosas también de la gente que investigó la historia de la tecnología, la construcción social de la tecnología. O sea, la media evolution es un campo intertextual, como cualquier disciplina que toma cosas de todos estos campos para poder construir una teoría, un enfoque, una mirada que sea más a largo plazo, que no sea una sucesión de medios, sino que vea la evolución de todo el ecosistema mediático, prestando mucha atención a las relaciones [00:41:00] entre medios, y con esta visión más compleja sistémica de cómo cambian las cosas.Yo creo que el cambio mediático es muy rápido y necesitamos una teoría para poder darle un sentido a todo este gran cambio, porque si nos quedamos analizando cosas muy micro, muy chiquititas, no vemos los grandes cambios. No nos podemos posicionar... esto un poco como el fútbol. Los mejores jugadores son los que tienen el partido en la cabeza y saben dónde está todo. No están mirando la pelota, pero saben dónde están los otros jugadores? Bueno, yo creo que la media evolution sirve para eso. Más allá de que hoy estemos todos hablando de la IA generativa. No? Tener esta visión de de conjunto de todo el ecosistema mediático y tecnológico, yo creo que es muy útil.Chris: Mm. Wow Increíble, increíble. Sí. Sí. Pienso mucho en como las nuevas generaciones o las generaciones más jóvenes en el día de hoy. O sea, [00:42:00] al menos más joven que yo, que la mayoría, como que tiene 20 años hoy, no tienen una memoria vívida de cómo fuera el mundo, sin redes sociales o sin el internet. Y así como me voy pensando en mi vida y como yo, no tengo una memoria de vida como fuera el mundo sin pantallas de cualquier tipo, o sea de tele de compus. No solo de internet o redes. Carlos: Sí, no, te decia que mi padre vivió, mi padre tiene 90 años y él se recuerda en el año 58, 59, su casa fue la primera en un barrio de Rosario que tuvo televisión y transmitían a partir de la tarde seis, siete de la tarde. Entonces venían todos los vecinos y vecinas a ver televisión a la casa de mi abuela. Entonces cada uno, cada generación tiene sus historias. No? Chris: Ajá. Ajá. Sí. Pues sí. Y también, como dijiste, para [00:43:00] entender los medios como sujetos o objetos individuales, o sea en su propio mundo, no? Este recuerdo un poco de la metáfora de Robin Wall Kimmerer que escribió un libro que se llama Braiding Sweetgrass o Trenzando Pasto Dulce supongo, en español. Y mencionó que para entender el entendimiento indígena, digamos entre comillas de tiempo, no necesitamos pensar en una línea, una flecha desde el pasado hacia el futuro. Pero, un lago, mientras el pasado, presente, y futuro existen, a la vez, en ese lago.Y también pienso como en el lugar, el pasado, presente, y el futuro, como todos esos medios existiendo a la vez, como en un lago y obviamente en una ecología de su evolución de sus cambios. Carlos: Es, muy interesante eso. Después te voy a pedir la referencia del libro porque, claro, [00:44:00] McLuhan siempre decía que el contenido de un medio es otro medio. Entonces, puede pasar que un medio del pasado deja su huella o influye en un medio del futuro. Y entonces ahí se rompe la línea temporal. Y esos son los fenómenos que a mí me interesa estudiar. Chris: Mmm, mmm, pues Carlos para terminar, tengo dos últimas preguntas para ti. Esta vez un poco alineado con el turismo, y aunque no estas enfocado tanto en en el estudio de turismo. Por mis estudios y investigaciones y por este podcast, he amplificado esa definición de turismo para ver cómo existiría más allá de una industria. Y para mí, el turismo incluye también el deseo de ver una persona, un lugar o una cultura como destino, como algo útil, temporal en su valor de uso y por tanto, desechable. Entonces, me gustaría [00:45:00] preguntarte, si para ti parece que nuestros medios populares, aunque esto es un tiempo, digamos con más libertad de otros lugares o tiempos en el pasado, más autoritarianos o totalitarianos? Si te ves la posibilidad o la evidencia de que nuestros medios digamos como mainstream más usados, están creando o promoviendo un , un sentido de alienación en la gente por efectivamente quedarles a distancia al otro o la otra.Carlos: Yo ya te dije no, no tengo una visión apocalíptica de los medios. Nunca, la tuve. Esto no quita de que los medios y como dijimos antes, tienen problemas. Generan también contaminación. Llamémoslo así si seguimos con la metáfora, ? El tema de alienación viene desde hace [00:46:00] muchísimos años. Ya cuando estudiaba en la universidad, nunca sintonicé con las teorías de la alienación.El concepto de alienación viene del siglo XIX. Toda una teoría de la conciencia, el sujeto, el proletario, llamémoslo, así que tenía que tomar conciencia de clase. Bueno, las raíces de esa visión del concepto alienación vienen de ahí. Yo, a mí nunca me convenció, justamente. Y acá si interesante.El aporte de América Latina en teorías de la comunicación siempre fue diferente. Fue reivindicar la resignificación, la resemantización el rol activo del receptor, cuando muchas veces las teorías que venían de Europa o Estados Unidos tenían esta visión del receptor de la comunicación como un ser pasivo. En ese sentido, la media ecology nunca entró en ese discurso porque se manejaba con otros parámetros, pero digamos que lo que era el mainstream de la investigación de estados unidos, pero también de Europa, siempre coincidían en esto en considerar el receptor pasivo, alienado, [00:47:00] estupidizado por los medios. Y yo realmente nunca, me convenció ese planteo, ni antes ni hoy, ni con la televisión de los 70 y 80, ni con el tiktok de hoy.Esto no quita que puede haber gente que tenga alguna adicción, etcétera, etcétera. Pero yo no creo que toda la sociedad sea adicta hoy a la pantallita. Deja de ser adicción. Okey. Esto no implica que haya que no tener una visión crítica. Esto no implica que haya que eventualmente regular los usos de ciertas tecnologías, obviamente.Pero de ahí a pensar que estamos en un escenario apocalíptico, de idiotización total del homo sapiens o de alienación. Yo no lo veo, ni creo que lo los estudios empíricos confirmen eso. Más allá que a veces hay elecciones y no nos gusten los resultados.Pero ahí es interesante, porque cuando tu propio partido político pierde, siempre se le echa la culpa a los medios porque ganó el otro. Pero cuando tu partido político gana, nadie dice nada de los medios. Ganamos porque somos mejores, [00:48:00] porque tenemos mejores ideas, porque somos más democráticos, porque somos más bonitos.Entonces, claro te das cuenta que se usan los medios como chivo expiatorio para no reconocer las propias debilidades políticas a la hora de denunciar una propuesta o de seducir al electorado.Chris: Claro, claro. Ya pues estos temas son vastos y complejos. Y por eso me gusta, y por eso estoy muy agradecido por pasar este tiempo contigo, Carlos.Pero los temas requieren un profundo disciplina para comprender, o al menos según yo, como alguien que está muy nuevo a estos temas. Entonces, a nuestra época, parece que somos, según yo, arrastrados a una velocidad sin precedentes. Nuestras tecnologías están avanzando y quizás socavando simultáneamente nuestra capacidad de comprender lo que está sucediendo en el mundo. Los usamos como protesta a veces como, como mencionaste, [00:49:00] pero sin una comprensión más profunda de cómo nos usan también. Entonces tengo la curiosidad por saber qué papel desempeña la ecología de los medios en la redención o curación de la cultura en nuestro tiempo. Cómo podría la ecología de los medios ser un aliado, quizás, en nuestros caminos? Carlos: Sí, yo creo que esta idea estaba presente, no? En los teóricos de la media ecology, digamos la primera generación.Ahora que lo pienso, estaba también en la semiótica de Umberto Eco, no? Cuando decía la semiótica más allá de analizar cómo se construye significado, también aporta a mejorar la vida significativa, o sea, la vida cultural, la vida comunicacional, nuestro funcionamiento como sujeto, digamos. Y yo creo que en ese sentido, la media ecology también.Digamos, si nosotros entendemos el ecosistema mediático, vamos a poder sacarlo mejor [00:50:00] coevolucionar mejor. Vamos a ser más responsables también a la hora de generar contenidos, a la hora de retwittear de manera a veces automática ciertas cosas. Yo creo que es todo un crecimiento de vivir una vida mediática sana, que yo creo que hoy existe esa posibilidad.Yo estoy en Twitter desde el 2008-2009 y sólo dos veces tuve así un encontronazo y bloqueé a una persona mal educada. Después el resto de mi vida en Twitter, es rica de información de contactos. Aprendo muchísimo me entero de cosas que se están investigando. O sea, también están uno elegir otras cosas.Y por ejemplo, donde veo que yo hay que hay redes que no me aportan nada, no directamente ni entro. También es eso de aprender a sacar lo mejor de este ecosistema mediático. Y lo mismo para el ecosistema natural. Así como estamos aprendiendo a preocuparnos de dónde viene la comida, [00:51:00] cuánto tiempo se va a tardar en disolver este teléfono móvil por los componentes que tiene. Bueno, también es tomar conciencia de eso. Ya sea en el mundo natural, como en el mundo de la comunicación. Y yo creo que todos estos conocimientos, en este caso, la media ecology nos sirve para captar eso, no? Y mejorar nosotros también como sujetos, que ya no somos más el centro del universo, que esta es la otra cuestión. Somos un átomo más perdido entre una complejidad muy grande. Chris: Mm. Mm, pues que estas obras y trabajos y estudios tuyos y de los demás nos da la capacidad de leer y comprender ese complejidad, no?O sea, parece más y más complejo cada vez y nos requiere como más y más discernimiento. Entonces, yo creo que pues igual, hemos metido mucho en tu voluntad y capacidad de [00:52:00] hacer eso y ponerlo en el mundo. Entonces, finalmente Carlos me gustaría a extender mi agradecimiento y la de nuestros oyentes por tu tiempo hoy, tu consideración y tu trabajo.Siento que pues, la alfabetización mediática y la ecología de los medios son extremadamente deficientes en nuestro tiempo y su voluntad de preguntar sobre estas cosas y escribir sobre ellas es una medicina para un mundo quebrantado y para mi turístico. Entonces, así que muchísimas gracias, Carlos, por venir hoy.Carlos: Gracias. Te agradezco por las preguntas. Y bueno, yo creo que el tema del turismo es un tema que está ocupa lugar central hoy. Si tú estuvieras en Barcelona, verías que todos los días se está debatiendo este tema. Así que yo creo que bueno, adelante con esa reflexión y esa investigación sobre el turismo, porque es muy pertinente y necesaria.Chris: Pues sí, gracias. [00:53:00] Igual yo siento que hay una conexión fuerte entre esas definiciones más amplias de turismo y la ecología de medios. O sea, ha abierto una apertura muy grande para mí para entender el turismo más profundamente. Igual antes de terminar Carlos, cómo podrían nuestros oyentes encontrar tus libros y tu trabajo?Sé que hemos hablado de dos libros que escribiste, pero hay mucho más. Muchísimo más. Entonces, cómo se pueden encontrarlos y encontrarte?Carlos: Lo más rápido es en en mi blog, que es hipermediaciones.com Ahí van a encontrar información sobre todos los libros que voy publicando, etcétera, etc. Y después, bueno, yo soy muy activo, como dije en Twitter X. Me encuentran la letra CEscolari y de Carlos es mi Twitter. Y bueno, también ahí trato de difundir información sobre estos [00:54:00] temas.Como dije antes, aprendo mucho de esa red y trato de también devolver lo que me dan poniendo siempre información pertinente. Buenos enlaces. Y no pelearme mucho.Chris: Muy bien, muy bien, pues voy a asegurar que esos enlaces y esas páginas estén ya en la sección de tarea el sitio web de El fin del turismo cuando sale el episodio. Igual otras entrevistas y de tus libros. No hay falta. Entonces, con mucho gusto, los voy compartiendo. Bueno, Carlos, muchísimas gracias y lo aprecio mucho.Carlos: Muchas gracias y nos vemos en México.English TranscriptionChris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast The End of Tourism, Carlos. Thank you for being able to speak with me today. It's a great pleasure to have you here with me today.Carlos: No, thank you, Chris, for the invitation. It is a great pleasure and honor to chat with you, a great traveler and, well, I have never directly investigated the subject of tourism.Well, I understand that we are going to talk about media ecology and collateral issues that can help us better understand, give meaning to all that is happening in the world of tourism. Well, I work in Barcelona. I don't live in the city exactly, but I work at the university in Barcelona, in the central area.Well, every time I go to the city, the number of tourists increases every day and the debate on tourism in all its dimensions increases. So it is a topic that is on the agenda, right?Chris: Yes, well I imagine that even if you don't like to think or if you don't want to think about tourism there, it is inevitable to have a personal lesson [00:01:00] from that industry.Carlos: Yes, to the point that it is almost becoming a taxonomic criterion, right? ...of classification or cities with a lot of tourists, cities or places without tourists that are the most sought after until they are filled with tourists. So we are practically in a vicious circle.Chris: Well, at some point I know that it changes, the cycle breaks, at least to account for what we are doing with the behavior.And I understand that this also has a lot to do with the ecology of the media, the lack of ability to understand our behaviors, attitudes, thoughts, feelings, etc. So, before continuing with your work and deeds, I would like to ask you about your path and your life.First, I wonder if you could define for our listeners what media ecology is and how you [00:02:00] became interested in this field? How did you come to dedicate your life to this study?Carlos: Yes. Let's see a little bit. There is one, this is the official history. We would say media ecology, it is a field of research, let's say, that was born in the 60s. We must take into account above all the work of Marshall McLuhan, a Canadian researcher who is very famous worldwide. He was perhaps the most famous media researcher philosopher in the 60s and 70s.And a colleague of his, Neil Postman, who was at New York University, was a bit, let's say, among the people who surrounded these two references, no, in the 60s, from there it was brewing, let's say, what was later called media ecology. It is said that the first person to talk about media ecology, who applied this metaphor to the media, was Marshall McLuhan himself in some private conversations, [00:03:00] letters that were sent to each other in the late 50s, early 60s, by researchers on these topics?Let's say the first public appearance of the concept of media ecology was a lecture in 1968 by Neil Postman. It was a public speech that talked about how the media transforms us and how the media transforms us, forming an environment in which we grow, develop, and so on. And we are sometimes not very aware of this environment that surrounds us and shapes us.He first used the concept of media ecology in a public lecture. And then, if we go back to the early 70s, Postman himself created the first program in media ecology at NYU, at New York University. So, in 73, 74 and 75, what I call the second generation began to emerge, of people [00:04:00] some of whom were trained in these courses in New York.For example, Christine Nystrom was the first PhD thesis on my ecology; people like Paul Levinson who in 1979 defended a PhD thesis directed by Postman on the evolution of the media, right? And the same thing happened in Toronto in the 70s. Marshall McLuhan died in December 80.Let's say that the 70s were his last decade of intellectual production. And there are a number of collaborators at that time, very young people like Robert Logan, Derrick De Kerchove, who later continued to work a bit along these lines, along these lines. And there we talk about the Canadian front, eh?This whole second generation was developing, expanding and applying. Let's not forget Eric McLuhan, Marshall's son, who was also part of this whole movement. [00:05:00] And if I remember correctly, in 2000, the Media Ecology Association was created, which is the Media Ecology Association, which is an academic, scientific organization that brings together people who deal with media ecology.If we think at a more scientific epistemological level, we can think of this metaphor of media ecology from two or three perspectives. On the one hand, this idea that media create environments. This is a very strong idea of Marsha McLuhan, of Postman and of this whole group, isn't it? The media - "medium" understood in a very broad sense, no, any technology could be a medium for them.For Marsha McLuhan, the wheel is a medium. A telescope is a medium. A radio is a medium and television is a medium, right? I mean, any technology can be considered a medium. Let's say that these media, these technologies, generate a [00:06:00] environment that transforms us. It transforms our way, sometimes our way of thinking, our way of perceiving the world, our conception of time and space.And we are not aware of that change. Let's think that, I don't know, before 1800, if someone had to make a trip of a thousand kilometers (and here we are approaching tourism) kilometers was a trip that had to be planned many months in advance. With the arrival of the train, we are already in 1800, those kilometers were shortened. Let's say no? There we see as if today they tell us 1000 kilometers.Well, yes, we take a plane. It's an hour, an hour and a quarter of a journey. Today, 1000 kilometres is much less than 200 years ago and even in terms of time, time has changed. Right? All of that is a consequence, let's say, of this change, our perception is a consequence of a series of media and technologies.The railroad. Obviously, today we have airplanes. The same digital networks that have somewhat brought us this idea of "time [00:07:00] real," this anxiety of wanting everything fast, right? That is also a consequence of these environmental changes generated by the media and technologies, eh? This is a very strong idea, when McLuhan and Postman talked about this in the 60s, they were strong intuitions that they had from a very intelligent observation of reality. Today, cognitive sciences, or rather neuroscience, have confirmed these hypotheses. In other words, today there are a series of methodologies to study the brain and we can already see how technologies...The media even affects the physical structure of the brain. Right? Another thing that is historical is that the media affects our memory. This comes from Plato 2,500 years ago, who said that writing would kill the memory of men. Well, we can think for ourselves, right?Or at least this generation, who [00:08:00] lived in a world before and after mobile apps. 30 years ago, 25 years ago, I had 30-40 phone numbers in my memory. Today I don't have any. And let's also think about GPS, right? At one time, taxi drivers in London, which is a Latin city, knew the city by heart. And today, that's no longer necessary because they have GPS.And when they went to study the brains of London taxi drivers, they saw that certain areas of the brain had shrunk, so to speak, which are the areas that manage the spatial part. McLuhan already talked about this in the 60s. He said that changes narcotize certain areas of the mind, he said.But well, we see that a lot of empirical research, very cutting-edge neuroscience research is confirming all these thoughts, all these things that were said in the 60s onwards, by media ecology. Another possibility is to understand [00:09:00] this as a media ecosystem, Marshall McLuhan always said we cannot give it meaning,We cannot understand a medium in isolation from other media. It is as if media only acquire meaning in relation to other media. Neil Postman and many other people from the school of media ecology also defend this position, that, well, we cannot understand the history of cinema if we do not link it to video games, if we do not link it to the appearance of television.And so with all the media, right? Eh? There are some very interesting works. For example, about how in the 19th century, different media, we could say, co-evolved with each other. The press, the telegraph. The train, which also transported newspapers, news agencies appeared. I mean, we see how it is very difficult to understand the development of the press in the 19th century and we don't link it to the telephone, if we don't link it to photography, if we don't link it to radio photography, [00:10:00] also later on.I mean, this idea is very strong. It is also one of the principles that I consider fundamental to this vision, which would be that the media are not alone, they are part of an ecosystem and if we want to understand what is happening and how all this works, we cannot, uh, analyze the media in isolation from the rest.There is a third interpretation. I don't know if it's too metaphorical, right? Above all, people in Italy like the researcher Fausto Colombo from Milan or Michele Cometa, he is a researcher from Sicily, Michele Cometa who talks about the turn, the ecomedia turn. These researchers are moving in a whole conception according to which, we are in a unique media ecosystem that is contaminated.It is contaminated by "fake news" it is contaminated by false news, it is contaminated by hate speech, etc., etc. So they, let's say, take up this ecological metaphor to say [00:11:00] We have to clean this ecosystem just as the natural ecosystem is contaminated, it needs a cleaning intervention, let's say a purification, eh?The media ecosystem is also in the same danger, isn't it? And these people are also calling attention, and I am very close to this line of work on the material dimension of communication. And this also has to do with tourism, right? The environmental impact that communication has today.Training an artificial intelligence involves a huge amount of electricity; keeping social networks running, eh, TikTok, YouTube, whatever, involves millions of servers running that suck up electricity and also have to be cooled, consuming even more electricity. And that has a significant impact on the climate.So, well, let's say, we see that this metaphor of the ecological, applied to the media, gives rise to two or three interpretations.Chris: Mmm. [00:12:00] Wow. I feel like when I started taking that course from Andrew McLuhan, Marshall's grandson, as I mentioned, it changed my perspective completely - on the world, on the way I understand and how I don't understand our technologies, my movements, etc. But now, from a person who has been studying this for decades, I would like to know how you started. I mean, Andrew, for example, has the excuse of his lineage, not his father and his grandfather.But then, as a young Argentine, he began learning about media ecology.Carlos: Well, I'll tell you. I studied communication in Argentina, in Rosario. I finished college. The last exam was on June 24, 1986, which was the day that Lionel Messi was born in Rosario, Argentina, on the same day. And [00:13:00] I worked, I collaborated in a class in a subject that was communication theories.And I even taught until 1990, three years, because after that I went to live in Italy. At that time, we read Marshall McLuhan, but it was a very ideologically biased reading. In Latin America, you must have seen it in Mexico. There is a whole history, a tradition of criticism from the media, especially of everything that comes from the United States, and Canada is very close to the United States.So, let's say that in the 70s and 80s and until today I would tell you that Marshall McLuhan was often criticized because he did not criticize the media. I mean, he had a vision. He said, Neil Postman, yes, he had a very critical vision. But in that case, this was one of the big differences between Postman and McLuhan, that Marshall McLuhan, at least in [00:14:00] public, he did not criticize the media. He said, well, I am a researcher, I send out probes. I am exploring what is happening.And he never joined in... And I think that was very clever of him... he never joined in this worldwide chorus of criticism of the media. At that time, television was a monster for many people.Children were not supposed to watch television. A bit like what happens today with cell phones and what happens today with TikTok. At that time, television was the monster. At that time, there was a lot of research in the United States, which was already based on the premise that television and the media are bad for people.We see that it is a story that repeats itself. I think that in that sense, Marshall McLuhan, very intelligently, did not join that critical chorus and he really dedicated himself to thinking about the media from a much freer perspective, not anchored by this vision that I believe is too ideologized, which is very strong in Latin America. It is very strong. This does not imply [00:15:00] letting down one's guard, not being critical. On the contrary.But I think that true critical thinking starts from not saying so much ideology, we say "this is already bad. Let's look at this." There will be good things. There will be bad things. There will be things, which is undeniable, that the media, even if we say they are good, will transform us. And I think that was the important thing about the McLuhanian idea.So my first approach to McLuhan was from the perspective of critical authors who, well, yes, come from the United States, they don't criticize the media. We're going to criticize him, right? And that was my first approach to Marshall McLuhan.I went to Italy in the 90s. I was out of college for almost eight years, working in digital media, web development, multimedia products, and pretext. And in the late 90s, I said, I want to go back to college. I want to be a PhD. And I said, "I want to do a PhD. Well. Being in Italy, the PhD was going to be in semiotics." So I did a [00:16:00] PhD. My thesis was on semiotics of interfaces.There I had a vision of digital interfaces that consider, for example, instruments like the mouse or joystick as extensions of our body, right? The mouse extends the hand and puts it inside the screen, right? Or the joystick or any other element of the digital interface? Of course. If we talk about the mouse being an extension of the hand, that is a McLuhanian idea.The media as extensions of the human being as a subject. So, of course, I reread McLuhan in Italian at the end of the 90s, and I reconciled with McLuhan because I found many interesting things to understand precisely the interaction with digital machines.In 2002, I moved with my family to Spain. I returned to university life. [00:17:00] And there I began to study the relationship between old and new media. Then I recovered the idea of ecosystem. I recovered the whole new idea, the id

En este episodio cubrimos los eventos más relevantes antes de la apertura del mercado: • Wall Street cae por tensión geopolítica y espera al FOMC: Futuros a la baja: $SPX -0.5%, $US100 -0.6%, $INDU -0.6%. Bonos mixtos: $US10Y en 4.45% (-1 pb), $US2Y en 3.96% (-2 pb). El conflicto Israel–Irán escala tras la eliminación del jefe militar iraní Ali Shadmani. Ayer el mercado rebotó por rumores de negociación, pero fueron desmentidos por Al Jazeera. Trump dejó el G7 antes de tiempo, elevando la incertidumbre. Hoy se publican ventas minoristas (-0.5% M/M esperado), núcleo (+0.2%), y el índice NAHB (36 pts). Mañana decide la Fed. • Archer Aviation se consolida como líder en eVTOL: $ACHR recaudó $850M adicionales tras una orden ejecutiva que impulsa taxis aéreos en EE.UU., elevando su liquidez a ~$2B. Presentará su modelo Midnight en el Paris Air Show y será proveedor oficial en los JJ.OO. de LA 2028. Colabora con el DOT, la FAA y la Casa Blanca. Inversores clave: $STLA, $BLK, $UAL, $BA y $PLTR. • Celsius sube por upgrade y momentum de Alani Nu: $CELH +3.9% tras mejora de TD Cowen a “Buy” con PT de $55. La firma destaca la recuperación de la marca principal y el éxito de Alani Nu, con ventas escaneadas creciendo >100%. Se espera que $CELH aproveche la red de distribución de $PEP y pueda integrar a Alani Nu al sistema. • OpenAI firma contrato de $200M con el Pentágono: OpenAI desarrollará prototipos de IA avanzada para seguridad nacional en el marco del nuevo programa “OpenAI for Government”, que incluye una versión gubernamental de ChatGPT. El acuerdo, respaldado por $MSFT, refuerza la expansión de OpenAI hacia el sector público. Colaboran también con Anduril en tecnología militar autónoma. Una jornada marcada por tensiones globales, avances tecnológicos clave y expectativa por la reunión del FOMC. ¡No te lo pierdas!

Hey HBs! It's high time for a monster romance! Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books is here to help Mel recap A SOUL TO KEEP by Opal Reyne! We've got a lonely duskwalker, an ostracized and sacrificed heroine, and daily sexy baths! This one is delicious. Since this is a crossover episode, you'll get parts 1 and 2 here like normal and then part 3 will be on Smart Podcast, Trashy Books this Friday! Subscribe to the show it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc. Episode Sponsor: A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL by Alyxandra Harvey! This delicious historical is just as wicked as it sounds! It's an enemies-to-lovers in which a bookstore owning heroine blackmails the most dangerous man in London to help save her sister AND solve a murder... and that's only if they can get navigate through all that sizzling banter and electric sexual tension. GET IT NOW HURRY DON'T WAIT THE VOICE IS AMAZING. Want more of us? Check out our PATREON! This Friday Patrons and Apple Podcast subscribers are getting a squeepisode onthe first three books in The Games We Play in Granville series by DJ Jamison! Thank you for keeping Mel sane, fluffy MM romance authors! Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast (at) gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms Tiktok @heaving_bosoms  Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more.

The Tragically Hip Top Forty Countdown: Song 18 — Claire from Ann ArborHey, it's jD. And welcome to the wide open middle of the countdown — that beautiful, feral terrain where deep cuts go to become legends and personal faves start to collide with consensus picks.This week on The Tragically Hip Top Forty Countdown, I'm joined by one of our most thoughtful and eloquent membersHIPers: Claire from Ann Arbor. We talk about discovering The Hip as a millennial from the U.S., falling hard thanks to Hockey Night in Canada, and how a steady diet of CBC and her dad's hockey tapes led her straight to 50 Mission Cap. (That's right — before she even knew the song, she knew the legend of Bill Barilko. That's parenting done right.)But what really makes this one hit different? Claire's lived experience as a disabled fan navigating concerts, fandom, and feeling safe in the crowd. Her reflections on inclusivity, identity, and finding community through The Hip are honest, funny, moving, and — in true TTHTop40 fashion — a little nerdy in the best possible way.We're not just counting down songs here. We're collecting stories. Claire's is one you'll be glad you heard.

Kiera is joined by Dr. Christy Moore of Moore Smiles to talk about how Dr. Moore has maintained her passion for dentistry over the decades, including providing solid leadership for your team, keeping an amazing culture, and branching out to services like Botox. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera. And today I have such a special guest. I love this woman so much. She has been a client of ours. She's been a dear friend of mine. This woman just makes you want to be a better human. And she's an incredible dentist, has some really fun ideas. I want her to come on and just share like a super unique way she runs her practice and just let you guys know this woman who I've just been so lucky to know for so long. Welcome to the show, Christy Moore. How are you today, Christy?   Dr.Christy Moore (00:27) I'm doing great, Kara. Thank you so much for that introduction. How about yourself?   Kiera Dent (00:30) Yeah,   I'm doing really, really well. It's been a podcast full day, but it's been fun. You're my last podcast of the day. So always an exciting thing. But Christy, you're such an incredible human. I feel like the world needs more Christy's. So I feel like you should tell them a little bit about who you are, where you're practicing, a little bit about your journey to practice ownership. And then like I said, she's doing something so special that so many offices are trying to do that can't do it successfully and Christy, you've done it. So.   Dr.Christy Moore (00:45) Thank you.   Kiera Dent (00:57) Just kind of tell everybody, like, how did you get into dentistry? What's kind of your path to where we are today?   Dr.Christy Moore (01:03) Yeah, so I actually started in dentistry all the way back in 1995, which was quite a few years ago. I started out as a dental assistant and then went to high-teen school, work, yeah.   Kiera Dent (01:13) That's why I like you. I had no clue you   were a dentalist. This is why we connect, Christy, all right? It says so much about you now. I get it, I understand.   Dr.Christy Moore (01:18) Yeah.   So I did, I did hygiene for about 10 years and then I went to dental school. I got out of dental school in 2012 and knew that I wanted to own my own practice and came out of the gate purchasing a practice from a previous Dr. Moore, no relation. We still kind of get people wanting to know like if that's my dad or my uncle, there's no relation whatsoever. But it came out in 2012, bought my own practice and started, started right out of the gate being an owner at that point.   Kiera Dent (01:52) That's incredible. And do you regret it? Because so many students straight out of school are like, ah, like, I don't think I'm ready. most of them are like, no, just buy. Are you so glad you bought right from the get go? Or do wish you would have like done an associate ship if you could do it all over again?   Dr.Christy Moore (02:06) I'm glad that I bought straight out of the gate. I kind of had an idea of like how I wanted to run the practice. I think being in dentistry for a few years before I even went to dental school, I knew what I liked, I knew what I didn't like. So being able to just start out and then own my own practice and then kind of build it from there was kind of nice.   You know, I didn't go in and change things immediately that the previous owner had been there for 40 years And so like I kind of slowly started implementing things and changing things like he didn't even have Computers so, you know you come out there's they were still scheduling on the little piece of you know The book we had to like erase it and all that stuff So ⁓ it we didn't have internet in the building, you know, and I come from like having internet. Yes. Yes 2012   Kiera Dent (02:50) 2012?   Dr.Christy Moore (02:53) So it was an event to get things up to par. But I'm so glad that I did it that way because the team that I lost team members, of course, but then the team members that stuck it out with me, like I still have one to this day. And she's one of my ride or dies and just levered her dead.   Kiera Dent (03:04) course.   That's amazing. I think that that's something like, I can't imagine. I mean, this is a true definition of a sleeping practice, Christy. Like I tell everybody, like, you want to buy a sleeping practice, like paper charts. I've never had anybody with no internet. And when I first started assisting, so let's think it would have been in 2003. So that's when I first heard we had a paper book and they like erased it, but that was 2003. I mean, you were multi-years post that and still   Dr.Christy Moore (03:35) Mm-hmm.   yeah.   Kiera Dent (03:41) Yeah, and I remember like erasing, like Terry was her name up front, it was my first office. They had the like suction, we're gonna spit in it. I thought it was disgusting, but I'm like, sweet, now don't have to worry about the UV light. I have no way to suction as an assistant, so that was kind of handy for me, but also disgusting. But I remember like, erase it out. I'm like, this seems so archaic, but YOLO. So here we go. Wow, okay. So then you bought the practice in 2012, no nothing.   Dr.Christy Moore (04:00) Yes. Yes.   Kiera Dent (04:09) kind of walk me through your practice journey. Like where did you go? Like how many team members? What was kind of the, I mean, you basically had like nothing but up from where you started. So that was a positive, like internet, paper charts. So kind of walk me through, you started there, where are you now today? What does your practice kind of look like? And then I'm gonna ask another question. I just wanna like get to that. Then I have.   Dr.Christy Moore (04:21) Yes, yes.   Yeah, so when I started out, I bought the practice and we had two hygienists, an assistant and a lady up front. And when I came in and told them that we were gonna go, yeah.   Kiera Dent (04:40) I wanted to die. You're like, I'm   gonna take away your paper and pencil and she's like, what? ⁓   Dr.Christy Moore (04:45) yeah, she quit immediately. Like I told her we were   going to get the computers and she turned in her notice. So yeah, that was immediate. So that was like the first change I had to overcome. So that was kind of interesting. ⁓ But yeah, so every, it was always funny because every time we had a change, things just got better. Things got better each time, you know, and like even like one of the hygienists that I had.   Kiera Dent (04:51) believe it.   Yeah.   Dr.Christy Moore (05:09) I told them we were gonna get digital x-rays, know, because we still had the old school x-rays for a while. When we went and got the digital x-rays, she prayed that Jesus would come back because she didn't want to have to do the training. I was like, seriously? Like you prayed that so that we didn't have to do the training? But yeah, there's people, people don't really like change, I found out. So.   Kiera Dent (05:19) What?   you   No, not at all.   Wow. I used to pray, I remember telling a dentist, I had a really strict dentist on our x-rays and I remember saying like, I hope I can make it into heaven if I can't pass x-rays off with you. Like I had a lot of sass as an assistant and that was what I was praying for Jesus for, but not to not have to learn it. Cause honestly, man, cause in dental school, like assisting school, I learned on film, like, which is so...   Dr.Christy Moore (05:42) haha   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (05:54) embarrassing because I don't feel like I'm really that old but like truly I did. I remember taking the x-rays on Dexter and then when I went to a practice and it had digital I'm like hallelujah you can actually see where your misplacement of your x-ray machine is. I'm like this is so much faster like rather than waiting for it to come through then you're like oh shoot we cone cut and I had no clue like I can't imagine why anybody would be stressed to learn that because I'm like it was so much easier than film. So much easier.   Dr.Christy Moore (06:01) yeah.   Yes.   Yeah.   Yes, yes,   absolutely. But that was the thing, like I think that you were a better, you know, x-ray taker before because you did not want to have to wait, you know, five minutes and then retake it and made another one. So you're like, okay, I want to make sure that I know how to do this and do this efficiently so that I don't have to take it again.   Kiera Dent (06:39) mean, maybe that is why, because I was the one who actually trained a lot of the Midwestern students on radiology. They were having the doctors teach it and I was like, listen, guys, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but I know you're not good at this and I'm actually really good at this. So why don't I teach these doctors how to like crush their FMX rather than you like, I'm like, you cone cut left and right guys. Like again, nothing personal. I'm just really good at this. So, but yeah, maybe that's why, cause I did learn on film originally and then went to.   Dr.Christy Moore (06:59) Yes.   Kiera Dent (07:06) by digital, but okay. So you go through this, you have an assistant praying for Jesus to come such an afternoon. Just go, okay. Now, now where are you at, Christy? Where's, where's life on the practice for you?   Dr.Christy Moore (07:12) Yes, yes.   So now   we ⁓ practice in Sweetwater, Tennessee. So it's a small rural town. I have no idea how many people are there, but it's not a whole lot. But it's funny because now we have three doctors. I think we have four assistants. We have four hygienists, a treatment coordinator, an office manager, and an insurance coordinator, and two girls up front.   Kiera Dent (07:43) So, and she has internet and likes computers. So we're good on that. That's incredible. You went from two to four and are you working on a second location? I feel like I've heard from Tiffany, like there's a mix with your friend, but like, is there a second location, just a solo location? What's kind of your plan with   Dr.Christy Moore (07:47) Yes. Yes.   It's a solo location, but I do have a friend that I went to dental school with and she actually is working in an office that's really just kind of down the street from me. And so we've been, I've been helping her quite a bit with that because she didn't really want to like, you know, run the practice or anything like that. And so I was like, well, I'll help you all that I can. So that's what we're kind of doing there, but it's an endo practice and I do not want to do endo at all.   Kiera Dent (08:26) You're like,   you will say good friends, you do your thing, I'll do my thing. And yeah. Exactly. And I know Tip just loves you. She loves coming to you. I know something that you have highlighted for me, like just in my time knowing you is one, you're always so positive and you're so fun. You make me laugh. But I think about your Christmas parties, like your holiday parties with your team. It's like sleepover at Christy's house, which.   Dr.Christy Moore (08:30) Yeah, I'll refer all my endopations to you.   Kiera Dent (08:48) Most doctors would never do that. And I just love you like, yeah, they love it. They come over, we do party, we have a slumber party, which I just think says a lot about you. So I'm curious, Christy, like something I think you do really well. Don't worry, there is a teaser. I want you guys to hear something she does really special, but I think you also do incredible for culture. What would you say to like owner doctors going from where you were to where you are today, having the culture that you built? What are some of the tips that you think you've done specifically as the owner and with your team?   to have this amazing culture that you run, Christy. Like you just have a fun culture that's amazing.   Dr.Christy Moore (09:20) ⁓ I think that my biggest thing is that I just try to treat people and treat my team the way I would want to be treated. You know, I was a team member for so long that that's all that I really knew. And sometimes I think it kind of came back and bit me a little bit just because I did allow things to go on a little bit longer in the beginning. But ⁓ I think treating people the way that I wanted to be treated has just been my motto for everything. The same way it was like dental stuff. Like I do for people in their mouth what I would want done.   in my mouth, you know? So I think if you kind of live by those rules, then how can you go wrong?   Kiera Dent (09:57) No, I agree with you. And Christy, this is just like your Southern hospitality. I'm always like, I want to go to Sweetwater and just have you be my dentist and work for you. Like just an amazing place that you do. I think kudos to you for doing that. I have a question. If you were to go back to 2012, you're buying this practice, what would be like the one, two or three, I'll allow it to three, things that you would tell yourself to get into place or things to know? Because I think so many owners are maybe where you were in 2012. Again, I have Wi-Fi.   probably have at least a computer in the practice. But you know, you never know. I'm always shocked at what I, I walked into this office, he's elite, you know him, he's in our group. And I walked into his practice, I've been coaching for a while, like this man is doing really, really well in his practice. And I walked in and I was like, you have paper charts? Like you didn't bother to tell me for a year that this was maybe an issue? And he was like, no, it's fine. And I'm like, it is not fine. Like, what are you doing?   Dr.Christy Moore (10:45) you   It is not fine.   Kiera Dent (10:51) like let's get you updated real quick. Kudos to him. I don't think usually doctors are that open to changing and he did so like mad kudos to him. I was like, Christy, I'll tell you off podcast air who this was and you will be shocked to like, wait, what? He's so like up to date on things. And I was like, okay, here we are. But if you could tell yourself back in 2012, what are like one, two or three things that you feel would just be good tips of advice for someone buying a practice or taking over a team or the growth you've had in the last 13 years?   to get to the level that you are, because you're still happy, you still love dentistry, you still enjoy it, like there's still sparkle in your eye, don't, like every time you come to our calls, I don't feel like Christy's like dead on the ground, like she hates her life. Like I know you have moments of that, but I still think you're very happy. So what would be some things you would tell yourself going back into that back in 2012?   Dr.Christy Moore (11:39) I think one of the biggest things, this is like no plug for the DLAA team or anything like that, but ⁓ I did not get a coach until about three years out of practice. ⁓ So I had practiced three years, I really wasn't growing, I really wasn't like going backwards, but I really wasn't growing or anything like that. And so at that point, that's when I actually brought on a coach. And I didn't bring on a coach because I was seeking one out. I had one just kind of show up at the office. And then it's like, he's...   He's here, you know, like I can't like say, she's busy because, you know, he's sitting out in the reception room, like waiting for me. And so like, but it was one of the best things that I did. It was hard just because, you know, they offer advice that works for, you know, like a generalized, you know, group of dentists. ⁓ And so being able to take some of that advice, but also being able to put my own spin on it.   ⁓ helped me out and I probably probably listening to the coaches a little bit more than what I did because they did allow grace for me to like drag my feet a little bit, you know, because there was things that had to be done that I didn't really want to do. ⁓ I'm you know, I've been on the disc profile for every, you know, so I'm definitely an IS. So I don't like to rock the boat and I like to have a good time. So like having tough conversations is one of the things that I do not like to do.   Kiera Dent (12:56) Yes you are.   Dr.Christy Moore (13:05) ⁓ So the other thing that I think that I would probably do is like make sure that I'm reading more books, learning how to be a leader and how to have those conversations, how to have it in a way that it's not like, I'm being the bad guy or I'm having to, you know, like be mean to somebody, but actually being able just to talk to them and just a conversation. And I've heard you say this a million times, it's a conversation, not a confrontation. And just knowing that because being clear is kind and I...   not always as clear as what I needed to be. I just wanted everybody to have fun and like me and so I let things go that probably shouldn't have been able to continue. So that's probably the two biggest things is just working on myself as a leader and you know bringing somebody in to help me a little bit earlier. I'm glad that I did bring somebody in at three years ⁓ just because like I knew I didn't know what I didn't know.   And I was like, well, I I think I need to be growing a little bit more than what I am, you being right out of dental school. So bringing somebody in, was definitely something I'm glad I did. I just wish I would have done it a little bit sooner.   Kiera Dent (14:17) Sure. And Christy, I'll take all the plugs. Like, of course, the Dental A Team, like, yeah, having a coach is always a good thing. We love you as a client. And Tip, I know I really just watched you grow. And I do think that having someone teach you what you don't know. And mean, Christy, you came in with a lot of experience. So even like dentists who weren't assistants, weren't hygienists, I mean, you already came with a pretty good dental pedigree chart to you ⁓ to have that. agree. And even for me, I'm like, I coach businesses and yet having a coach, having someone guide me that's been there, done that, done that successfully, I think.   Dr.Christy Moore (14:20) Ha   Kiera Dent (14:47) is so helpful and I agree the leadership piece it's like well you did four years of dental school to learn how to get that prep get that crown it's like well let's also do at least that amount of time to be leaders and leadership is not like something you you end up at you get your degree it's a forever journey so it's like all right here we are let's settle in like this is what we elected to do but Christy I do and Tiff will say that she's watched you grow a lot which is really fun for us to see you grow and evolve too ⁓ but   Dr.Christy Moore (15:01) No. Yeah.   Kiera Dent (15:15) I've teased this out a couple of times. Christy has the Botox practice. Like they, she actually has done it. She's cracked the code. So many offices are like, no, I only have Botox in here to do my own face. So Christy, I want to talk about this because I've been jonesing to talk about this. I secretly want to know too, but how on earth have you cracked the code to get Botox to be a profitable portion, a big piece of your practice? ⁓ Because I think like everybody wants to do this and no one knows how to do it. Like literally, I think you are my first office to ever.   actually have it be successful. So Christy, take us away on Botox. I know people, I'm I've been waiting to drop this because I'm like, it's going to be so great. No one knows how to do this other than Christy Moore. So let's let it rip.   Dr.Christy Moore (15:57) Well, the thing too is like anybody can do it. Like if I can do it in Sweetwater, Tennessee, like anybody can do this anywhere. Actually, I started with the first course that I ever took was probably, I think it was like 2016 or something like that. And the only reason I took the course was because I had the girls in the office wanted me to do it and a couple of patients. Yeah. And so I went and took the course and while I was at the course, I ended up signing up for the TMD course like the next day. Like that wasn't even on the plan.   Kiera Dent (16:15) Yep. ⁓   Dr.Christy Moore (16:26) but I went ahead and signed up for that. And that was like a true passion for me just because I was like, wow, like this does more than just, you know, helps with wrinkles. This can actually help patients. This is problems that they're having when they come in the office. And so like I did that part and then I come back to work and it's like, okay, now what? You know, so like one of the things that I started doing was I was like, okay, girls, you got to get in the chair. We're going to do some, we're going to do some Botox on you, you know? And so that was kind of how it started. We, did the team members.   Kiera Dent (16:51) Yeah.   Dr.Christy Moore (16:54) I had a few steady patients that would come in, but it really didn't go quick. It was a slow going thing at first. ⁓ And then I started talking to patients about TMD issues, clenching and grinding, they're coming in with headaches. Men typically don't have pain associated with it, but a lot of women do. And so I would say, well, you know what? What's really helped me is that I can go in here and treat your masseters.   and with some Botox there and then that can help you quit clenching and it helps with headaches. I'm going over that and then their next thing out of their mouth is, well, if you can do my massagers, can you help my face too? And I'm like, oh, well, actually, yes, we can. We can help you out there. And then it just kind of get a little bit more, a few more patients, word of mouth. And it really wasn't until probably about two or three years ago.   you know, we just doing more and more people. And then I brought in a marketing person who's actually my daughter and she's my treatment coordinator as well. And she's just really put it out there on social media. And she got these PowerPoints together and this is what we play. Like it's in the reception room, it's in all the treatment rooms. And it's just like what can be done, what all we offer. And so from 2016 to now,   Like we've moved from just doing like Botox, but we kind of do like all the stuff. You know, we do filler, we do threads, we do smooth threads, we do lifting threads, we do micro-needling. And then we recently just got a laser as well. So, you know, that's one of the things that just kind of getting the word out and letting people know is the biggest hurdle. And that was probably the biggest thing that helped us for sure about getting the word out. Now we have people...   that call in and like we just recently had a guy call in and he wanted to a coupon. I want to know if we had coupons for the wife because he wanted to give her a gift certificate for a Botox. He found us online. So just getting the word out there is probably the hardest thing, but it's the best thing to do. treating your team members because they're walking advertisements. And who better to practice on than your team members because   Kiera Dent (18:55) Thank   Dr.Christy Moore (19:11) You know, if you mess up, which you can, you know, they're more forgiving and then you get, you know, the next time around you get another little chance to do it a little bit better. And then you're like, okay, now you're learning. So not only are you getting advertisement out there, but you're learning as you go too. And I've done like all kinds of training. And I don't just go with one person. Like I've done like several different.   I've done faces, I've done metastatics, I've done the AAFE, I did a couple of different individual people because I feel like if you can learn from everybody and take a little bit from everybody and then you bring it in and make it your own and I think that's kind what we've done at our little office.   Kiera Dent (19:56) I love it, Christy. Okay, let's talk about it. A few things I've noticed is you guys have a big Botox sign in your practice. I think it's hot pink. Is this really true? I'm pretty sure. I thought about you, right? Okay, so.   Dr.Christy Moore (20:05) Mm-hmm Yeah, we have a slideshow   and it's got it's got all the talks it's got everything on there. Yeah The neon sign Yeah   Kiera Dent (20:13) Yeah, so one thing is, it's neon. That's what I'm saying.   It's like a tube neon, Botox across her wall sign that I'm like, okay, number one, yes. This is what I'm talking about. When you wanna market something and people are like, I can't get Botox. I'm like, well, nobody even knows that you even do it. So, Christy, you're like loud and bold about it. It's a hot pink sign that I remember. I saw people under it. I've seen it on your social. But one of the things, like how else?   Dr.Christy Moore (20:23) Says less talks about it. Yeah.   yeah.   Kiera Dent (20:42) I also love that you talked about you treatment plan it in. Like you as a dentist are treatment planning this Botox and looking at their masseter muscles, just like anything else. I feel like you've done a really good job of pulling that into just even do it clinically, not just aesthetically, which I think that's also really great. But what would you say if I'm a new dentist? And I also love these to have taken it from so many people because I did have someone give me Botox and I full blown got a halo.   Like it was so thick, it was so heavy. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I've never, like, I need my eyebrows off my eyes. Like get that up. It feels terrible. So I'm glad to hear that you're like just constantly going, but what would you say? Okay, new dentist, I just took the course. I'm super excited. I think one, it bold. Two, do the masseters. Cause that's a very easy way to start treatment planning and talking about it for word of mouth. But what else would you say to do? Like, I mean, you got the whole PowerPoint. So.   What would you say would be avenue one, two or three to really grow this to get it as a big portion of my practice?   Dr.Christy Moore (21:39) Working on friends and family, working on your team, that's the number one thing. And then just getting it out there on social media. Having your team, even if you're doing injections on them, videoing that, getting out there and doing stuff. like Laken, she makes me do things that is uncomfortable for me. And so she's like, oh, you'll be fine. You're gonna get out here and you're gonna do it. She did like a...   a Facebook live where I'm doing filler and she asked me a question and I don't answer her and she's like, what? was like, well, maybe I didn't know the answer. So if I don't know the answer, I'm just not gonna answer you. And she's like, well, it's okay. I'm just doing filler words here. We're just trying to make the conversation go. And I'm like, okay. But getting out there and just letting people know, that is the biggest thing. It's new to our practice. It's, let's.   do specials, like we've done Botox parties. ⁓ We did like a Sips and Scans and Botox. We've done kind of all types of little things where we've actually give people discounts just to get them in. We've actually gone out and gave ⁓ like little coupons out to like the different salons in the area, just trying to get the word out there any way that we can to let people know, hey, we're doing this. Who's gonna know your face better than anybody than a dentist? I mean, we have like a whole semester on just   head and neck anatomy. And so like that's, it's just the thing that they're like, I didn't know a dentist could do that. And you know, and it's like, well, yeah, like we're probably really good at doing it. You know, just because we do know the muscles, we do know everything as far as like this works this way, this works that way, you know, making sure that you're treating the patient, not just the face, like making sure that we're, cause I do have people come in and they're like, well I want some Botox up here.   Kiera Dent (23:15) Thank   Dr.Christy Moore (23:33) And it may be like older ladies and like they've already got the hooded eyelids. And I'm like, honey, I can't do a lot of Botox up there. Like I can take away your wrinkles, but if I do that, like you're not gonna be able to hold your eyelids up. So it's gonna make it harder for you to see. When they're like, oh, well, I don't want that. So just kind of knowing your anatomy, knowing what muscles do what, and then not being afraid to go in and just try it. Just get in there and do it. It's not.   Even if you think you've messed somebody up, I mean, it's what, three months? So it's not anything that you can't recover from. And then patients are very forgiving. They're very understanding. ⁓ In my time of doing it, I've had two people that I've actually give a little crooked smile to. And both of them are like, it's okay. Don't worry about it. And I feel horrible. And they're like, no, it's okay. It'll be better. It's not really that noticeable. And I'm like,   Kiera Dent (24:06) Exactly.   Dr.Christy Moore (24:31) I notice it, you know? So I'm just doing it because people, want it. They don't want to go anywhere else. They want you to be able to do it. And if you can do it, then why not? You know? So I think that just not being afraid just to try it and do it and just, even if you're scared, like do it scared. Like I heard, I seen that the other day and it was like, you I'm nervous every time I get up and speak in front of somebody and they're like, well, how do you do it? He said, I just get up and do it scared. I'm like, that's...   Kiera Dent (24:42) Mm-hmm.   Dr.Christy Moore (25:00) That's so interesting because a lot of people, they're like, well, I'm scared. I'm not going to do it. And so if you don't do it, you're never going to not get scared or not get you. You got to get comfortable. You got to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And that's the only way to do it is just to get in there and do it.   Kiera Dent (25:17) I agree. Christy, I love that. And I love that you just talked about, like, I think something that you did differently is you decided this would be a portion of your practice. It's not just for the ladies in the practice. You're like, no, we're going to have this as a portion. We're going to make this like it's a full procedure in our office. I'm not just doing it for like our team. And I think that that's something where you went in with that attitude. I think there's a huge passion that you have on it, but I agree. think there are girls like, Kiera, who does your Botox? I'm like, the dentist. And they're like, what?   Dr.Christy Moore (25:45) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (25:46) And I'm like, yeah.   Dr.Christy Moore (25:46) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (25:47) And I also love dentists because I went to a dentist versus an esthetician versus an MD. I've gone through three different people. The esthetician gave me the most amount of Botox. That's the one where I got the hood. Like, believe it or not, she's the one who gave it to me. And like, the amount of Botox she put in me was incredible. Then I went to an MD who was doing it. And he also like it was a lot like my face was frozen solid, frozen, frozen. And I'm like, all right, so we're like,   he did bro-tox, which that's a good phrase. I think that if you wanted to target the men, he called it bro-tox for the men, which I that was super clever. But my husband even like, he could not move his face at all. So it was a little, in my opinion, excessive. But dentists I feel are more conservative on the botox level. You don't tend to go quite as much as the estheticians or the MDs, which I appreciate. ⁓ Like you said, you know the muscles, you know the anatomy super well. And I think like, go for it, have it as a portion.   Dr.Christy Moore (26:21) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (26:43) So with your numbers, because Christy, I know you know your numbers, like what percentage of your practice does Botox bring in? Do you know that? I could be putting you on the spot. So maybe I'm like, you're taught her and I'm asking you questions you don't.   Dr.Christy Moore (26:53) Yeah,   I'm not really 100 % sure to be honest with you. I would say it's at least probably at least 10%. You know, I would like for it to be more. And that's one of my goals is to get that side of the business to be, you know, grow and be more because like for me, like as a dentist, we hear all the time, you know, I hate the dentist. Oh, no offense, but I hate the dentist. Are you going to stick that needle in my mouth? Are you going to stick that in my guns? You know, I've never had one person ever say,   Kiera Dent (27:01) I think so too.   Dr.Christy Moore (27:23) I hate my injector. You know, are you going to stick that needle in my face? Like, no, they love you. They want the, and they, they, they will pay money for it. You don't have to worry about insurance, you know, when you're doing that part. So I would definitely like for that to be more like, if I can have my whole day just doing like the aesthetic stuff, like that would be my ideal day, you know, because that's, it's, it's almost like, it's like a masterpiece. You know, you've got, you've got this canvas and you're not changing people. You're just enhancing what they already have.   Kiera Dent (27:43) was amazing.   Dr.Christy Moore (27:53) You know, like I don't want to go in, my goal is that when somebody leaves the practice that they don't actually look like they've had Botox or they don't look like they've had filler. I want them to look fresh, not frozen, like you said. And so like, you know, that goes back to like knowing the muscles, watching the patient, treating the actual patient instead of like the cookie cutter, you know, oh, well, to treat the glabella, you know, you need, you know, 20 to 24 units, you know, to treat the frontalis, you need 20 to 24 units, you know.   It's like, okay, well, they pull really hard here, but they don't really pull hard here. So let's treat it this way, you know? And so, like, so, cause each one of them are like FDA approved for a certain amount, you know? And that, and that's like the standard, but everybody's different. And so that's my, you know, I just want to make sure that I treat the patients, treat the patient the way the patient needs to be treated.   Kiera Dent (28:30) Yeah.   Amen. And I love that about Christy and I think like, okay, I just did some math. So let's say you have a million dollar practice 10 % that's 100 grand pulling in, which I know Christy, your practice is not the million dollar practice. You guys can do the math, you can figure it out. But like if it's 10 % think about that, that's an extra hundred thousand. The overhead on it's pretty minimal. It's a great piece. Like you said, you're able to do these extra pieces. And you're right, there's no insurance. People pay top dollar to stay looking young. It's incredible. Like   Dr.Christy Moore (29:11) the   Kiera Dent (29:12) ⁓ I also was thinking of there's people all around here and they're called like the injection queen or they're like, so it's like really on their social media. It's not just their dentistry piece, but it's this whole portion of aesthetics that people then are coming for it because they want to look good. I saw an office at dental practice and they literally have a Botox membership plan. And I was like, that is freaking clever. Yeah, tell us about it. Okay, tell more about this. How does it work and do people really sign up for it? Cause I think it's so smart.   Dr.Christy Moore (29:32) We have that. Yeah.   Absolutely,   absolutely they sign up for it. And so I, of course, I don't try to reinvent the wheel. I got it from somebody else, but it's basically a membership plan. They pay for 20 units for the year. So it's 20 units for four times throughout the year. If they don't use it, they lose it. But once they pay for that, so their initial upfront payment is probably a little bit more, but it ends up saving them about $300 throughout the year.   Kiera Dent (29:58) Mm-hmm.   Dr.Christy Moore (30:07) but it actually like they pre-play for 20 units each time. so, you know, so it's just, and then they get a discount on the actual dollar amount that they actually get. So, you know, like if you have somebody that typically gets 50 units, then they only have to pay for 30 units each time that they come in.   So it actually, and I tell them, they're like, ⁓ that's a whole lot better, because then my husband don't ask questions on, it's less, that's less about. And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And I've had people actually even put money in, pay throughout that just so that they have it. And that's when I was like, well, why don't we do a membership plan? That makes it a whole lot easier. And also I wanted to reward my patients that have been loyal, that have been coming in. Times are changing, and so prices go up.   Kiera Dent (30:46) yet.   Dr.Christy Moore (30:56) And so like I didn't really want to have to like increase my price just because, know, you know, I've been doing it for a while. I've really not changed my price and I didn't want to have to change my price. So my people that have been coming in and loyal to me, I wanted to be able to give them, give back to them and give, you know, give them the opportunity to keep it at the price that I was doing it for. And so that's kind that was one of the other, you know, benefits for me is so that I could actually give back to those people that trusted me with their face.   when I was still learning and stuff. ⁓ And so it's worked out really well. I don't know how many people we have on it now, but we get people like just about every day when they come in, we'll have at least like one or two a week that'll sign up on the membership plan.   Kiera Dent (31:41) which is so smart because Botox is like better than profies. Like they have to come in every three months rather than every six months. ⁓ It is something where I'm not gonna lie. Like my husband, it was random. He did tell me, I got it done. And a couple of days later, he didn't know. Cause I get it on the road, Christy. I'm one of those, I mean, I work with a lot of dentists. So when I'm traveling around, I get my face frozen and I came home and my husband's like, gosh, Kiera, you look a lot better. Like what, did you change your hair? And I was like,   Dr.Christy Moore (31:45) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (32:09) No, my face just looks younger and you can definitely tell and I appreciate that. And when you get that reinforcement, you're like, yes, I'm going to keep up with this and I want to. And it's the only like proactive preventative way right now. Like there's biohacking on all the levels, but just having that as a piece for it. And so I think it's just an awesome, awesome thing to do. I love the membership plan. I love that you're growing it. Like this is where I saying, like you have cracked the code on how to do it. And I was like, I've got to dig into this. And I want people to hear because   Dr.Christy Moore (32:16) Yes.   Kiera Dent (32:37) I think Christy, it also keeps your excitement for dentistry alive. I think you get passionate because it's a new passion project. It's fun for you. It's something different. I love that you said like, I want you looking fresh, not frozen. It made me giggle. like, you want me to still look alive rather than dead in my coffin? Like, God, I agree. That's how I want to feel too. So thank you. ⁓ But any other thoughts you have of practices wanting to put in Botox or anything else about your practice? Because this is like   Dr.Christy Moore (32:44) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Kiera Dent (33:02) the nuts and bolts of what I want to talk about tonight. So any last thoughts you have around it, because I truly appreciate you just coming on and sharing what you're doing in your practice.   Dr.Christy Moore (33:11) I think the biggest thing is just, you you just have to do it. You know, like I said before, if you're scared to do it, just do it scared. You know, after so many times, it's not as scary anymore. Like we actually have ⁓ in our schedule, like we have blocks for like our tox patients for them to come in. And so, you know, those may get filled, they may not get filled. But when they get filled, like it's always like, it's usually an extra anywhere between 500 to $1,000.   for just a little extra that doesn't really take me that long. Like I come in and I look and I'm like, okay, this is what we're gonna do. The girls draw it up, they have it already. I come back in, the face is clean, the photos are taken. We did injections and then the patient's out the door. And so it's basically like a hygiene check for me. So I'm in and out quick. But the patients have been in there with a team member, so they feel like they're getting heard.   Kiera Dent (34:00) Mm-hmm.   Dr.Christy Moore (34:09) They know all of their concerns are being addressed. so, you know, just having a team there that supports you and believes in you. And like once they believe in you, then, you know, then that's how the patients start believing in you.   Kiera Dent (34:22) Awesome, Christy. I love that so much. I'm like, gosh, doctors, when you're complaining to us about your Delta Dental ⁓ exam pricing, well, maybe throw a little bit of those botox ones. Like you said, I'm like, $500 exam versus my $30 exam feels a little bit more fun, a little more fun for you. But Christy, kudos to it. And all of you listening, I hope you just took notes. You realize like you can add these as portions of your practice and not just like a small sliver, but a true like 10 % of your practice bringing that in.   having it be a big portion of it. And like you said, giving back to people. I prefer a dentist to do my Botox over an esthetician or an MD. And that's me personally, who's gone to several different people, people who are the best, people who are over that. And I mean, Botox are paying $10 to $12 a unit with Botox or Disport. That's a pretty good gig all the way around. And I just think it's a fun thing. So Christy, thanks for being in our life. These are the things, the way I found out was in our doctor mastermind. We have our doctor only, and I was like.   Christy's doing Botox, I'm gonna put it on the podcast and talk about this more. So this is fun stuff to also have you as a client, to have you in our life, to have you in our world. You just bring a wealth of goodness, Christy. So thanks for being on the podcast. I know it's the end of your day, so thanks for coming. Yeah, of course, super happy to have you. Of course. And for all of you listening, go figure out how to put Botox in your schedule. Go figure out how to do this. Do it scared, whatever it is for you, do it scared. If we can help in any way, reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time.   Dr.Christy Moore (35:28) Well, thank you.   Thank you.   Kiera Dent (35:47) The Dental A Team podcast.  

Kiera and Dana perform a practice autopsy mashup. In this episode, they specifically take a look at multi-location practices, and how to make all of them profitable instead of just one or two. Topics discussed include overhead, associates, marketing, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today is such a special day. I have the one and only Dynamite Dana. I think that that's what we're sticking with. I think it's better than the other nickname that we came up with. But Dana, if you guys know her, you love her. She's been in a consultant with us for years. Dana, welcome to the show today. How are you?   Dana (00:17) Yeah, good morning. Thanks for having me. I'm excited. I don't get much like podcast time with you. It's usually with him. So it's a fun morning for me.   Kiera Dent (00:26) I   know Dana's a rock star. ⁓ I, yes, I can sell a little podcast and yes, that's fun to do, but it's more fun to have someone on here. So I sent Dana a message and I had it like in the afternoon. And then I was like, Ooh, my schedule changed and moved it to like first thing in the morning. So Dana, thanks for being easy to accommodate. but I think that that's you. You're just always there, always willing to help and offices love you for that. So   Dana (00:43) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (00:51) We have a fun topic, you guys. I love a good office autopsy. So Dana and are gonna kind of mash a couple practices together and dig into some practice profitability trends that we're seeing on an office autopsy. You ready for that today, Dana? Because I love these. Anything more than a good profitability story and how to get there, that's what it's about. And I think that that's what so many practices struggle with. They don't understand how to get profitable. They know that it's there. They know that it can be an illusion.   Dana (01:03) Yeah, this is exciting.   Kiera Dent (01:18) They know that it can be a reality for some. so Dana, I feel like some of the practices we've been dealing with lately, it's like actually making it turn into a reality rather than just as hope and a wish. So take it away. I know you've been working on this. I've been working on this. Let's have some fun today.   Dana (01:31) Yeah, it's been really fun the past couple weeks. I've been like able to just do a lot of numbers crunching a lot of future projections a lot of like hey what effort is it gonna take to like get things where we want them to be and it's really fun to give owners like the possibilities of What they currently have or where they want to be and so it's just been really really interesting the last couple weeks getting to do that and getting   Kiera Dent (01:43) you   Dana (02:02) offices to see like where they want to put their energy where they may need to put their energy and so it's just been numbers aren't you know I'm learning to love numbers more and more ⁓   Kiera Dent (02:14) Yes, did you hear that? Dana, did   you start out that way? Let's just let's just help listeners feel like is this a normal thing?   Dana (02:22) No, I mean, I am a systems girl through and through. And so, you know, I know how important the numbers are. And of course, like those are pieces I look at. But really, really being able to manipulate the numbers, to be able to project things, that is something that I've really had to dig into more and more. And it's been fun for sure.   Kiera Dent (02:45) Yeah, and I love the reason I highlight that is because for myself for Dana numbers were not something natural for some people it is just wired into you but I think for 90 % of human beings out there they would feel very similar to how you and I feel and so I just want to highlight that it's totally normal not to understand numbers but it is also normal to figure out how to use numbers and when you do it actually feels like like life becomes so much easier it's like   my gosh, there was an HOV lane this whole time. And I had no clue that there was like a fast pass, fast lane over there that if I would just learn my numbers and dig into it, I would honestly be able to do things a lot better. And so I think like, that's what makes me so excited Dana is this is where we also help practices. Like let's use the numbers to manipulate and actually do less work, more profitability and more ease. So kudos to you for digging in kudos for you, like admitting that systems are your gem, which I think it's easy, right? But to me, I'm like,   systems are only as valuable and only as important as the numbers are reflecting. Like, yes, we should put them in, but I'm like, if we're just putting systems in place, but we're not moving the dial, what does it matter? ⁓ You're going to be struggling. You're going to have financial stress. You're going to be like not happy. Use the numbers to figure out which system's broken and then go to work there. It becomes so much easier and less effort for sure.   Dana (04:02) Yeah, yeah, it's pretty magical to see. So yeah.   Kiera Dent (04:05) Right. All right.   So we have a couple of practices. We've got some that are multi locations. We've got some that are solo locations. And I think we should dig into some of these multi locations because multi locations I feel are like interesting families. And what I usually notice in multi locations, ⁓ oftentimes, depending upon the practice, these offices actually like one or two or three are super profitable. And then the other two are like sucking the practices dry.   And it's so interesting because we think like, let's get so many, which if your plan is like a DSO rollup or it's legacy, or you want to just expand your reach and you want to help more people, all those things are great and fine. but I think like figuring out how do I make my other locations profitable? Or if you're in a single location, I think a lot of these tactics will apply to you. So let's kind of dig into these multi-location places, Dana. ⁓ cause I think it's funny, like we've seen some offices where it's not funny. It's unfortunate that like two are doing so good. And so they expand and they open up more.   And then these other two are not doing so well. they're like two are profitable and two are not. So then we're not profitable all the way around and we're working our guts out. So let's talk about like, how do you fix that problem? And I think for solo practices, if you're in this boat, these things can apply to you too, if you're not as profitable, because I've also seen in solo practices where they've maybe added like a Medi Spa to it and maybe, and that's two technically different businesses under one roof.   If the spa is not doing well, like I just talked to someone the other day, their spa is sucking them dry, but the dental practice is doing well, but they think the practice needs help when it's like, no, no, no, the practice is fine. The Medi spa is the problem. Or if practices have multi locations, but it's all under one umbrella, they have no clue which practice is actually the problem practice. And I think that that's something we also see is they don't actually separate them out. So they're like, we don't even know which practice. So let's dive into it, Dana. You've been working with a couple like this. Let's kind of dig into some of your, your tips and tricks.   Dana (05:56) Yeah, and that's honestly exactly what we did in the beginning is, hey, let's separate and let's look at numbers individually for each practice so we can see.   Kiera Dent (05:57) you   Dana (06:06) as a whole, are we doing? Yes. But where are we profitable and where aren't we so that we know, like you said, how we can hone in and target our efforts on the ones that need a little bit more of a boost or show a little bit more of opportunity. And so once we figured that out, then it really is looking at fixed costs for individual practices. It's looking at overhead expenses and then it is really projecting out what does it take to get it to where we want to be.   So what do we actually need? And in this instance, it was really cool to be able to even dive a little bit deeper as far as, okay, well, if we take the doctor, if we take the provider away from the profit that's like...   Kiera Dent (06:51) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓   Dana (06:51) the practice is profitable and he's working in one of the other practices like what does that also cost the practice that is booming and so it's it was really fun to just map that out have them see that also too every time he's pulled to one of these other practices there is a cost to the   larger location. And so just getting them to see that it just helps him   make a better decision as far as   how much time that he is spending there versus associates and then getting the associates to help grow external practices. And it just, think gave him just a clearer picture. ⁓ And then we also looked at, okay, well, you know, considering investing in some marketing for these. So what does it take for how many new patients do we really need to get to that number? And then we kind of mapped it out and okay, well, what does the marketing spend look like for one year, for two years, for three years to get   there so then they had a timeline to ⁓ just be able to make decisions on.   Kiera Dent (07:57) Mm   hmm. Yeah. No, Dana, you brought up so many good points. And I think like, let's drill down into this a little bit, because you like, these are the things where numbers become so fun, because now it's just a plus b equals c. But if we do a plus b plus c, that's going to equal d. If we take a minus b, add c, what does that equal? ⁓ And so that's really where it's like looking at this. And so I think for a lot of providers, especially our powerhouse providers that started the practice made these profits.   practices and then open multiples, there can be this thought process of, well, I have to be in the practice all the time. Otherwise, the practice doesn't make money. And I think that is one way to live. But let's also like, choose our own adventure books. Like, let's go back in time, like we could have at the end of that chapter, it says, okay, option one is you're going to actually continue working like this, and you are going to be the provider in four locations. Or we can have you be where we powerhouse you.   in one or two or maybe all four, but it's a very sustainable schedule for you. And we work to build up the associates and the hygiene department and we make it to where all of them are flourishing with or without you. And to me, I like to choose option B, you can choose option A if you want, but that's like a sure shot to burnout. And I think so many multi-practice owners actually do this, like I'm gonna go to all the practices because I'm the strong producer, I'm the strong provider, I need to get these things going and you can.   but it's like for how long and is there another path? So drilling it down, Dana, I think let's talk about like, how can they do this other path with ease? Like what are some of the tactical things that we've seen with practices you're working with, with other practices that we've worked with in the past? Like what are some of these like tactical pieces? how can we, because I think that illusion is so strong that I have to be the producer, I have to be the one who hits the numbers. What else can we do and how long is that timeline realistically?   Dana (09:47) Yeah, I think the first and foremost is if you aren't going to be the provider in in the other practices It's really building strong associates really making sure that you're finding the right fit for Whether it's the main office whether it's one of the extension offices whatever it is that that associate really is the right fit and That you are calibrating really well and you are bringing in strong associates who want to grow these practices with you and alongside you because I get you can't be in every   practice you can but like you said it sure is a way to be exhausted and burnt out and start to just not love owning all of these practices.   Kiera Dent (10:28) Mm-hmm. And like, let's so as you said that it makes me think about like when you buy a practice I remember I was working with this this potential client We were looking at the metrics of this practice and they realized that like 70 % of the production of this practice was actually being done By procedures that this dentist didn't do so was like, well good luck buying that practice You only can do 30 % of this production. So yes, they may have produced like 1.5 or 1.9 like whatever it is   but slash 70 % of that because you won't be able to produce that unless you bring an associate in. And so I think when you talked about like, are the monthly costs of this practice? What does it actually take us to run? Let's do our second location. Well, you're so used to your practice right now because you're probably doing these expanded procedures. You're probably doing these higher ones. And most of the time, what I see is doctors are like, well, I'm just going to hire someone who can do bread and butter dentistry as my associate. So then I can just do these big surgeries. Well, if that's the case, we need to figure out.   Practice number two or practice number three, A, what are the actual full costs of that practice and what do we need to produce? B, can we produce that on bread and butter or do we need to bring in your specialty? If we need to bring your specialty in or if we're going to pull you out of current option A, like where you currently are with an associate, how much of the dentistry is actually being done by your specialty services? And do you need to hire an associate that can do some of those specialty services as well? This is where the numbers become so paramount because it's like, we produced   1.5 or we produce two or we produce three. Now we're going to open our next location. But like Dana said, like bringing on an associate, it's not just a good fit. It's also making sure that they have the procedure makeup mix that can offset your production loss when you're gone. Or you get very strategic of, okay, when I am in practice A, I'm only doing these high end ones. So I'm producing this amount. They're, they're funneling these exams to me. You also have to be careful because if your associate doesn't do these high end procedures,   they're not going to look for in exams. So that's when you calibrate your associates, you calibrate your hygiene team to look for it. And when you get to multi offices, this is where Zoom and virtual meetings become paramount because you get all associates together and we all start looking for it. So we actually become referring partners to one another within the practices. And we also get our hygiene team and or AI to make sure that all the, of us are diagnosing the same level. So these are the things where I'm like, this actually can make your   multi-practice ownership way easier if you get these good foundations in place. And like you said, Dana, you find an associate who's like just as good, if not better, if you need them to be, but looking at the numbers because just because your practice is producing 2 million, 2.5, 3 million, wherever you are before you open your second location, maybe it's 1.5, look to see how much of that is done by your higher end services because typically an associate coming out of school   or a newer associate who's bread and butter dentistry is usually producing like five to 6,000 a day. Well, look at what you're producing. And if we brought someone in, can they produce that? Or if straight out of school, they're producing like 2,500. So you might need to scale up or have multi associates. But I think also being strategic when you open these practices of what do my doctors on the low end need to produce? Because I know they're going to produce lower at the beginning. How can I calibrate them and work with them every single month, every single week?   How can we take x-rays and make sure from the get-go these associates are doing really well? And also how can my hygiene team make sure that they're all calibrated to be doing the exams that we want? I think like those things might feel hard, but choose your heart in the scenario of I'd rather do that and know what I actually have to produce rather than just thinking we're gonna like stamp and repeat when you might be the higher producer. Dana, that was a lot of thoughts. What are your thoughts on that?   Dana (14:08) No, I love that and you're exactly right. think looking at the service mix, knowing how much of your production comes from those things because then it's like how important is it to find that and what exactly am I looking for in an associate? you know, we talk about avatars a fair amount and it's just like that is what points you into building those pieces and honing in for exactly what you need to be successful.   Kiera Dent (14:34) Mm-hmm, and I'm really big also on like how can we scrap the cost down at the beginning? Because gosh like I don't have children Dana you have four and so I think Question mark you you probably speak to this better than I can obviously you can't because you've gone through it But my hunch is when you have a baby, it's really hard and then as they get older You're like shoot. Let's have another baby and maybe you've forgotten how hard baby is when they're a baby Is this true or false? I just tell me how it is like   baby grows up and then you have the next baby like did you maybe forget how hard it was to have a brand new newborn and you're like tell me about that like how is that parenting   Dana (15:08) yeah.   Well, yeah, for sure.   Your mind plays tricks on you and makes you think that it's going to be super simple. And yeah, it's just like each phase, right? You kind of forget how you look back, right? And you see the beautiful things, right? You see the things that were fun. You see how much they smelled so good and how little they were, you know, all those pieces. And yeah, you do remember or you do remember the highlights and you tend to forget like the long exhaust   you know, nights that can sometimes come with a little tiny human. So yeah.   Kiera Dent (15:43) Yeah.   And I think that's about practice ownership too. So when you look at it, you have forgotten when you go to buy your second location, the scrap and the hard and all the things you did to build that thing to be successful. Like literally we forget, I forget, I mean, I was talking to Shelby and I'm like, I remember paying Tiffany on straight Venmo. Why she continued to work with me. I don't know my Venmo account. there's a max that you can send every single week, month.   And I'm like, Tiff, I hit my limit. Like, I'll have to send it to you when it resets in like three days. How on earth the Tiffany keep working with me is question number one I have. And number two, like, that's not even something that I even like remotely think about in today's world. Like, things are so set up, but you forget all of that. And so I think when we buy practice number two or practice number three, and we're looking at these costs, let's not go for the bougie luxury of exactly what we have. Let's figure out what are the things that are going to make it consistent. Same software, same exams, same like   a operatory setup if possible, because those things actually make you move quicker and then your practices become standardized. So when you go from location to location, it's much easier. But those are gonna be some of the things that also keep the costs lower. So we don't have to produce as much with you in there and still have it be profitable because you can have a practice that's only producing say 70,000 or 80,000 without you there at a 50 % overhead.   and still shelling out to you 20 to 30 % profit, depending upon how you're paying your associates. And that's still a great practice. It does not have to be producing the numbers if you keep your costs within reason. And so I think also being careful that if you're not there and we don't need all these, like we don't need all the marketing for the second location. We don't need all the implant supplies. Like if that's not a part in our associates not going to do it, then make sure that we're not incurring that cost. Because what that does is I think that this is where we then get into the struggle.   of the profitability of the multi-practices that then fluctuates because we're standardizing, but we're also trying to make all of them the exact same when maybe that's unnecessary. So I think that's one, but then you also talked about marketing because every new location has a different makeup. They're going to have a different makeup of patients. And just because it worked in one area for your marketing does not mean it works in another area. So Dana, let's do a little dig. We have a hypothetical for, for practice location, two practices are profitable. The other two aren't.   What are some of the steps or things that we should look for to get these other two profitable? Because we kind of talked about like before you buy a practice or if you're already in it, like here's some things to do or looking for these different associates, but like, shoot, I'm already in it. I've got two that are great, two that are bleeding. What do I do on these bleeding ones to make them healthy?   Dana (18:22) Yeah. And I think it's multi-practice, single practice, whatever it is, it's knowing who you're trying to attract and where are they? And so it, you know,   If you're a pediatric practice, Well, who are the parents that we're targeting? Who are the moms that we're targeting? Where are they in the community? How can we get involved in the things that they're involved in? Whether it is even online Facebook groups or whatever it is. But I think it starts with knowing exactly who you want to walk through your door and where you find them around the location of the practice.   Kiera Dent (18:56) Mm-hmm. And that's going to help because also pay attention because certain areas will attract different parents. Like there's different demographics. There's different socioeconomics. Like, so just because you're trying to attract the Lululemon mom for one practice, you might be attracting the Walmart Target mom at another location. Both moms are amazing. Both children will be great, but you've got to do like the Lululemon mom.   has very different marketing tactics and what you're going to do and what your giveaways might be in that practice or whatever you strive to do, how you're going to involve in the community. I'm going to be at the Pilates. I'm going to be at the juicer places. I'm going to be at like Elixir. Like that's what I'm doing for my Lululemon mom. I'm going to be like, they're probably at charter schools more than they're at public schools. That's going to be a different mom. And then my moms who are the target Walmart moms, I'm going to be at like the community centers. I'm going to be at the rec centers. I'm going to be at the YMCA. I'm going to be at   The I don't know like the moose lot like whatever those ones are where lots of kids go you guys I don't have kids so clearly I'm not great at this but like that's why I'm not a pediatric dentist either ⁓ But you look at it those moms are gonna be different The moms who are about Walmart are going to want someone who is cost of like so you might throw membership plans in there because they're more for that the lululemon mom's probably going to want more of like the Nutrition and what can I do and what's the highest quality? They're not going for like your lowest like   like give me a deal, but your Walmart and your Target mom probably is. And so again, there's nothing wrong with either mom, but your marketing strategies will probably need to change. So when you're looking at that profit margin or the bleeding practices, is our marketing working and do we need to change it up? Agreed. Do we have enough new patients for that? I also think I'd be looking at my costs. Like do, our staffing right? Cause some of these bleeding practices don't have enough patients that we might need to scale back our team.   at those locations to where maybe we're working two or three days. Like that's a bummer, but we're going to hire more part-time employees rather than full-time employees until we can build up to that. And these are decisions that I just want to highlight. CEOs, this is why we get paid what we get paid because our job is to make these hard decisions. Our job is to say like, we don't have the space for this. So we tell the team, you don't just have to go like whack, like, all right, we're out. It's like, Hey, we've got two months that we can do this and I need to get this patient up to this amount. This is our BAM. This is what we have to produce.   And if we don't, we're going to need to cut back to three days. Like it's just a black and white conversation, but your job as a CEO is to make sure you're not bleeding money and you get those practices profitable. It's also, what can we do? Can I, can I go in and mentor that associate doctor? Can they come and watch me? Can we assist each other? So that way they see how I'm doing these procedures and I can help them get more confident in it. Like what needs to happen to get that production number up? What, what do I need to do for my assisting team there?   So again, it's not, and I think for these multi-practice owners, I think one of my biggest tips is you are not the solution. Pretend you are a puppeteer behind the screen. How do you get all these practices profitable without you being the one? Dana, what are your thoughts about that? Cause that's how I feel, but I'm curious how you feel.   Dana (22:03) Mm-hmm. No, I agree with you completely and I think that when they have the numbers when they look at those pieces when they can say, okay If I bring in an associate and they produce at this amount it will take me let's say While use pediatric as an example, they produce 300 an hour right or 300 per patient per new patient that comes in and then you can say okay Well, if we do it at that if we do it at the 450 level if we do it closer to the 700 per patient or per hour then   Kiera Dent (22:20) Mm-hmm.   Dana (22:31) it lets you see how quickly you can grow, how quickly you can get to the production that you need to cover your expenses, those pieces. And so I just think that you're 100 % right. And knowing the numbers to be able to make those decisions and make those critical cuts or those critical ⁓ avenues for success, it just truly, truly helps.   Kiera Dent (22:55) And it all comes back to the numbers. And I think when you know your BAM, like a true BAM, we're talking bare ace minimum, we're not going again. It's, it's like, think back to when you started the practice, that's bare ace minimum. Like, what do I need to do to scrap it down? We're talking top ramen versus filet mignon. We'll get to the filets, but we need to start here, grow up to it. Again, choose your heart. For me, it's way harder to be not profitable and cash flowing negatively rather than not hiring as much or cutting my supplies down or   limiting what we're doing or changing my hours up until I can get it there. Now, Dana, let's go into a weird one because a lot of times owners think like, especially like solo practice owners, that if my practice isn't profitable, I'm going to scale it down to like two or three days and then I'm going to go moonlight at another practice. This is like a very hot debate that I have within myself. like, what are your thoughts about that? I have very strong opinions about this, but I'm super curious because   That can seem like a plausible idea, right? Like, let's go work somewhere else. Let's bring in the money to cover this one while I build it up. Give me some thoughts on that if your one practice isn't doing as well.   Dana (24:01) Yeah. And you know, I can understand the notion of like wanting to do that, because it's like, I'm trying to stop the bleeding, or I'm trying to at least reduce the stress or reduce the feeling of this isn't growing fast enough, or it isn't as successful as they want. But then what you're doing is you're really limiting the potential, you're limiting the potential of the location that you already   have right to then go where you don't have unlimited potential. And so I just feel like to plug the energy and put the effort and put the focus on the practice versus I can understand the want to go find something that is steady and stable when this feels so uncertain or we don't know. But I do feel like you you put your energy and your focus on it and it will   be more profitable than if we went somewhere else where it's capped for sure.   Kiera Dent (24:57) Mm   hmm. It's fun debate that I really love and I love the perspectives and I think there's no right answer. You've got to figure out what's right for you. But I am very similar to Dana in the sense of I feel when you have an out of a second practice that you moonlight at, ⁓ it doesn't force you to innovate in your space. It's kind of like a bandaid where it's like, okay, yeah, yeah, this can bleed kind of like a second location or a third location that's not as profitable and your first and second ones are just covering up the pain of it.   ⁓ to where you're like all right we'll just go and we'll find money in another place versus like no if you have to sit in this place you will figure it out because there's no other option like the boats have been burned we have to figure out what we're going to do and we have to make this work and so that's kind of where i'm like sure i see it but i also think there has to be a date that's in stone of we will end by this time and i know i have to have it profitable   Same thing with your bleeding practices. I think when you put dates on it of like by this date, it has to be profitable and you have to have the self integrity within yourself that you will actually own that that you will work towards that because otherwise you said Dana like it's unlimited potential within your practice. It's also like you're limiting yourself by going to another location and I feel like if another location is easier for you, maybe being a practice owner is not right for you. And I say that with love and respect, like know thyself and be free.   ⁓ because I feel like, when you burn the boat to innovate, find it. Shelby and I were talking the other day and we like throughout this goal and Shelby's like, Kiera, I don't even know how we're going to do that. We've never done that before. And I said, I don't know either. We're going to figure it out. Like that's just how you have to operate. Like, I don't know. And so whether it's, need a coach or you need someone to guide you like Dana, like sometimes we're in the thick of it. I have coaches. I can't see. I call Liz all the time. I'm like, Liz.   I need your perspective because I don't know and I'm in it and I need you to be a bird's eye view for me of like, where do I need to navigate through this? Because the option is to go through it. It's not to like jump off board. ⁓ but maybe you need a coach. Maybe you need to like look at the numbers and figure it out. Maybe you need to realize I'm not the solution for it. And if I'm not the solution, then what are my solutions in the, in the coloring box or in my toolbox? Like I think when you remove yourself and you say, because it's not sustainable.   Four practices, one doctor and trying to be the profit producer for all of them. Like that's a hard ask even for a short amount of time. Sure, you can do it, but it's not sustainable. Like you will burn out. And I see these doctors coming in like crisp fried, like ready to give up everything. They have nothing left. They're becoming numb. They're becoming like detached from family members. They don't even get excited for things that used to make them excited because they're literally burnt to a crisp. So it's not a sustainable model. So why are we doing it?   cause we think it's easier. like we think moonlighting is easier versus like, no, let's fix the problem. Let's have a date in stone and let's move on. So Dana, I freaking love these conversations because it helps me see like one, you've got to know your numbers. The numbers will tell you what to do or not to do. Two, I think you've got to be really confident in making the decisions. Three, let's set some dates in stone and make sure that we're actually committed to figuring out the problems by this date. We're not pumping more money into it. ⁓ honestly, like   If I was looking and I had practices that weren't profitable, I think the only areas I would spend money are possibly marketing, possibly, but there's so much free marketing that you can do. So let's not throw money there if we're actually losing money. I would spend money on a great consultant, someone who's been there, done it and done it successfully to move you there because sometimes when we're in the thick of our problems, we can't get out of it. So that is another cost that, but again, I talked to a doctor there on cashflow row right now is what I call it. And I said, all right.   You have two choices. You're either going to rise up or you're going to rise out. Like you take your, like choose your heart. And to me, I'd rather like pay the money and commit and make the decisions and like follow through or turn it over. Like you're in cashflow row. There's no other option for you. So you've got to execute. ⁓ and really, truly like those are the main things that I would spend money on. And then I would look to see how can I cut my expenses and what do I actually have to do and produce to take the stress off to become profitable or at least not losing money.   That's like my only focus for that time and I don't let anything else distract me. It's very hard to put those blinders on, but I think that's also where an accountability coach, a consultant. Yes, I will toot our own horn. Dental A Team is really, really good at this. We do not let you steer away from it. I know you want to talk about marketing and I know you want to talk about like, but we need these supplies. No, that's a distraction from what's really going on. We need to get profitable and that's production, collections and overhead reduction. Like that's all you need to do during those moments.   So let's figure it out and let's find the way and put those blinders on and commit that we will always be profitable. Dana, I'm off my soapbox. Any last thoughts you've got? Because I clearly am passionate about this.   Dana (29:42) No, I love seeing the passion and you know, it just bleeds through in everything you do and and that's the passion that we have for our clients. And so when we see them in these situations and it's like, let's dig in together. Let's figure it out and put in the work.   Kiera Dent (29:55) Yeah, Dana, brilliant. love that you have clients like this. love that I have clients like these are the puzzles we love to help you with. So whether you're a solo practitioner or you're a multi owner practitioner or you're thinking multi ownership, whatever it is, like I really do think having a coach hopefully before you get to this spot, if you're already in the spot, rock on, we can still help you. So I think like whether you're in it now, like get the help, like throw up the life raft right now before it's too late. I really, it,   It stresses me out when clients come in and they're on cashflow row. It's like, it's okay. And it's okay. And it doesn't mean you're a failure. It doesn't mean you weren't a bad, like you're a bad business owner or I should have seen this coming. No, you're a business owner. Like this is real life, but like, let's get the help before it gets to be like, really like the water's already up to our neck. Like let's get it. Whereas maybe at like our chest and we're feeling the pressure mount a little bit, but there's still a little bit of breathing room rather than when it's like up to our chin. That becomes a lot harder, but still doable.   ⁓ Or like hey, let's be proactive kind of like I mean couples therapy I'm like, let's be proactive and do this before we need the divorce help like let's let's try and save the practices before so if we can help you I love to do practice growth calls with you like no pressure complementary to you We'll just look at the gaps in your practice give you a ton of value if it works for you and we're a great fit Awesome, we'd love to help you If not, you're gonna walk away from that of some awesome tips in value because I want you to see your blind spots And I want you to see the solutions ⁓   regardless. So reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com or book a call. Dana, love podcasting with you. Thanks for coming on early today. Thanks for being a great consultant. Thanks for loving our clients and just having that passion for their success. So fun to podcast with you today. Of course, and for all of you listening, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.   Dana (31:32) Thanks for having me.  

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Hannah Davis (@rooted.with.hannah), a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher who specialises in women's health, hormones, and autoimmune conditions. After being diagnosed with Hashimoto's while navigating early motherhood, Hannah shifted her clinical nutrition practice to focus on uncovering the deeper root causes of symptoms like fatigue, cycle irregularities, and PCOS. We dive into how nervous system dysregulation often underlies hormonal imbalances and why functional testing, mineral status, and emotional safety are crucial for true healing. From decoding PCOS types to understanding thyroid antibodies and the connection between trauma and calcium retention, Hannah offers a deeply integrative and compassionate lens for supporting women on their fertility and healing journeys. This conversation is packed with practical tools and fresh insights—don't miss it! Key Takeaways: PCOS is not just about ovarian cysts—it's a metabolic and inflammatory condition with many root causes. Nervous system regulation is foundational for hormone balance, digestion, and fertility. Functional lab testing (like Dutch and HTMA) reveals hidden patterns traditional labs may miss. Excess calcium in tissues may indicate trauma or over-supplementation with Vitamin D. Diet, stress, sleep, and gut health all influence autoimmune and hormonal symptoms. Guest Bio: Hannah Davis, RD (@rooted.with.hannah) is a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher with advanced training in functional nutrition, lab testing, and spiritual psychology. She specialises in supporting women with hormonal imbalances, autoimmune conditions like Hashimoto's, and chronic fatigue through an integrative approach that blends clinical science with deep nourishment and nervous system healing. After navigating her own health challenges postpartum, Hannah now helps women reclaim their energy, resilience, and sense of safety through 1:1 coaching and group programs at Pivot Nutrition Coaching. She's especially passionate about working with mothers, self-healers, and cycle-breakers who are ready to feel like themselves again. Links and Resources: Follow Hannah on Instagram Visit the Pivot Nutrition Coaching website Book Mentioned: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com  To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility  The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/  Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/  Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. ------------- Transcript: # Audio: TWF 340- Hannah [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey. **Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast, Hannah.  **Hannah:** thanks for having me. **Michelle:** So I'm very excited to have you on. We're gonna be talking about a lot of really cool topics, but before we get started, I always like to start out with kind of like an origin story and learn how you got into the work that you're doing.  **Hannah:** Yeah. I am a registered dietician. I've been mainly practicing medical nutrition therapy for the last 10 years in a more clinical setting. And you know, and then [00:02:00] I became a mom. I have two. One's almost eight, you gotta say almost eight. And the other one's, and the other one's nine. So they're really, they're really young and I, you know, working at the hospital part-time and I started noticing. **Hannah:** My own symptoms of, of things that just felt like off. And simultaneously I was also becoming more interested in learning about more integrative functional nutrition. And so that really led me down. It, it started off as, oh. A way for me to kind of figure out what was going on with me, because of course, like so many of my, the clients I work with now you know, you go to the doctors, you ask for some labs to be done and they just say, oh, you're absolutely fine. **Hannah:** You might just be stressed. You're stressed out, you're a young mom. Of course it's normal to feel exhausted all of the time and stuff like that. So, I just was like really interested [00:03:00] in doing more digging and so I, we got some training in advanced lab testing and more like integrative functional nutrition. **Hannah:** And so. From there I was able to figure out what's going on with me, and I, I actually have an autoimmune condition. It's called Hashimotos. And so that really affects, you know, your, your energy levels, your, your gut health, your immune system obviously is involved. So I, it was so incredibly validating and it really excited me. **Hannah:** I was like, I feel. If I can figure out a way to use advanced lab testing and combine that with my. More of my more clinical, you know, expertise and combine that together to really like, help women feel empowered about how to support their health and, and how they feel and their showing up in their lives every [00:04:00] day. **Hannah:** And so it just really, really excited me. So that's kind of what got me started with that. And then I, I pivoted towards, towards that about three years ago started my own virtual practice working more in like the women's health space. So like hormones, gut health, autoimmune conditions. **Hannah:** And then I, as I was doing more of that work, I was like, okay, there's. I'm seeing a common theme here. These women at their root, cause a lot of the time is nervous system dysregulation. And I got really. Tired of just saying over and over again. You know, you need to manage your stress a little bit better. **Hannah:** I wanted to be able to give them so much more than that. And obviously I knew that from my own journey. I really had to integrate that. And so, but I wanted to like, figure out how to help my, my clients integrate that. So then I became a certified meditation [00:05:00] teacher. And spent a year studying spiritual psychology, which is like a blend of Eastern ritual and practices with western psychology. **Hannah:** That, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now I really like to supplement my, programs with giving my clients tools on how to regulate their nervous systems as well. And so, we'll, you know, you know, it's more of like life coaching almost. And then maybe we'll integrate some, some things like, meditation or breath work together. **Hannah:** It really just depends on what the, how the client wants to be supported. So  **Michelle:** Awesome.  **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** You know it's interesting 'cause I  **Hannah:** Yeah. **Michelle:** an episode on. Nervous system. Really the vagal tone and  **Hannah:** Yes. **Michelle:** there's a link with a weaker vagal tone and things like endometriosis or  **Michelle:** PCOS, and I thought that was just fascinating. [00:06:00]  **Michelle:** So, yeah, I'd love to really kind of dig deep on all of these things. So just for people listening and they're kind of like hearing nervous system for the first time. 'cause well maybe they've listened to my podcast, maybe not when I talked about the nervous system. But what should people, like, explain the nervous system, explain how the nervous system ties into certain conditions. **Hannah:** I mean, that's a very, like, that's pretty broad because it's like, you know, it really depends on what. **Michelle:** the nervous system like tie into certain conditions?  **Hannah:** I don't know what condition it doesn't, honestly. Uh, the more, the more I get like deep in the weeds with this, so, you know, a lot of my clients we, you know, so I am typically working with people with autoimmune conditions and hormone. I balances gut health, that kind of stuff. And I, you know, I would say the nervous system impacts all of those areas [00:07:00] because ideally, especially when we're talking about women's health and like hormones, things like that we really just want to create safety in the body, right? **Hannah:** So that we can. Manufacture hormones and ovulate naturally and things like that. So, and then, you know, inflammation's another, another piece of that. It really just, it's a great way to, like, it just connects to everything right. **Michelle:** Yeah, well the vagus nerve is incredibly important when it comes to gut health. the stronger the vagal tone, the better the vagus nerve, the better. It's able to lower inflammation in the body.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** fascinating and interesting. And so what are some of the things that you do suggest for people. they wanna regulate their nervous system and support that aspect.  **Hannah:** So First of all, I think it's important to just figure out what are the systems for that client? What are [00:08:00] the systems that are working for them and what's not? And really get really honest about that. And then, you know, it could be something like starting a. **Hannah:** Very doable meditation practice or some breath work like before, before meals, right? Getting into rest and digest me activating that vagus nerve so that we can digest our food properly. So it really just depends on what is feels a lot most aligned for the client and, and is doable for them. But also I think another big piece of this, which is not really talked about often is eating for blood sugar balance. **Hannah:** Because even like blood sugar swings throughout the day can cause fluctuations in your mood and your anxiety and cravings and all, all of, and even inflammation as well. So  **Michelle:** that  **Hannah:** like a whole body [00:09:00] approach. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** It's such a good point. And I remember like looking into this and researching like just really the gut brain connection and. And it's interesting 'cause you can see it really go both ways. So if you have imbalanced gut microbiome that can ima impact your brain and your mood and your state and your emotions. **Michelle:** And it actually is linked with certain emotional um, imbalances or like mental disorders. It's really fascinating. And then they found. On the flip side that people who meditated for many years, like Tibetan monks, they had a really vast microbiome that was a lot more enriched and had a lot more diversity. **Michelle:** So it's really fascinating how you really can literally get it at both ends or either end.  **Hannah:** yeah. Like I tell my clients all the time, if you're breathing into your shoulders, the majority of the time it's gonna signal, [00:10:00] or that's gonna signal to the brain that you're in fight or flight. So it's gonna send all the blood to your extremities. It's not gonna be sending the blood to, you know, your, your GI track and your, you know, your organs there. **Hannah:** And so. it's gonna be a lot harder to digest your foods, whereas if you are really taking these deep breaths into your belly, it's sending all the blood there. And that's, that's a, and I mean, I often get skipped, you know, people are just like, no, just gimme a, just gimme a meal plan. I wanna feel better. **Hannah:** I wanna lose weight, or I wanna, you know, but it's like, you really gotta think about not just what you're eating, but how you're eating, like what your nervous system state is. You know, when you're, when you're eating food.  **Michelle:** That's so true. It's  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** true. And it was funny 'cause I was reading about that and it was one of the things to do is just stand. This is why they say like, don't drive and eat at the same time. Because when you're driving naturally, you're gonna be in a little bit more of a fight or flight or kind of ready for anything and. Also just to kind of throw it out [00:11:00] there, it's not bad to be in that state, in that sympathetic state. It's part of life. It's just that sometimes you need that and then sometimes you need the other. But what you're saying is so true, like it's actually like becoming mindful of getting yourself into that state and maybe  **Michelle:** doing those exercises to get yourself in more parasympathetic state, which is more of  **Michelle:** the rest and digest, so that you're priming your body when you do eat. To digest better. So I think  **Hannah:** Yeah. Of course, and, you know, if you're digesting better, you're absorbing nutrients better, which is gonna impact your energy levels, your mood, your hormones, everything. So yeah, there really, I feel like the more I get into it, the, more I see that there really isn't an aspect of our health, our med, our metabolic health, everything that is not touched by, your nervous system. **Michelle:** Yeah, it's really fascinating. I like, the more I dig into this, the more I'm just like so [00:12:00] amazed at how Willy, you know, it's the nervous system is kind of like this wiring of like. Information.  **Michelle:** It's almost like information that kind of signals to your body, all kinds of different states, but especially that safety. **Michelle:** I agree with you. You know, when you, when you feel safe, you can be more creative. And what does that mean really in the body fertility and it also regeneration growth.  **Michelle:** So yeah, it's pretty cool,  **Hannah:** Yeah. And I mean, hormones, that's how hormones work too. They're just chemical messengers in your body. **Michelle:** right? and so talk about PCOS, 'cause I know that you work with P-C-O-S-A lot just to cover. 'cause I think of people don't really understand it fully because it is you know, there's so many different types of PCOS and people get confused and sometimes people show PCOS symptoms, but then some doctors, and we don't know if they're just not like looking. Thoroughly into it. Dismiss it. Oh, that's not PCOS. So  **Hannah:** Right.  **Michelle:** that and just kind of, **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** [00:13:00] it is,  **Hannah:** Okay, well, we'll just start what, like, so what is PCOS? So PCOS stands for polycystic ovarian syndrome. So a lot of people get confused by that right off the bat. They think, oh, so that mean I have cysts on my ovaries. Does that mean that I have it? So it's actually not a physical ovarian condition, like of the presence of cyst, but it's rather a hormonal condition and it's a, what I like to call a spectrum condition. **Hannah:** You know, 'cause there's different varieties and there's different root causes. It's important to understand, first of all what kind of PCOS you have and what the root causes are which is why we, we use functional lab testing in practice. But but yeah, I think a lot of women often it's like a long confusing road full of mixed messages of like just lose weight advice,  **Michelle:** Yeah,  **Hannah:** [00:14:00] you know. **Michelle:** really thin. PCOS patients, so that's where it can get so confusing for  **Hannah:** Right, right, right. And so, A-P-C-O-S isn't in an ovarian condition, you know, what exactly is going on? I mean, in a nutshell, it's basically, blood sugar issues plus inflammation, plus genetic susceptibility, which is going to lead to the ovaries to begin to produce large amounts of androgens. **Hannah:** So, you know, and I say genetic susceptibility because, you know, just because you have like insulin sensi or insulin resistance or diabetes, that doesn't mean you automatically are gonna get PCOS. Some people just have really sensitive ovaries right. And so they're, they're going to develop the, the condition, so I like to talk to my clients about well first of all, we start by running some tests [00:15:00] to find out, you know, what what their root causes are. And then we're gonna really go deep with, you know, working on the blood sugar issues with the inflammation, real food strategies lifestyle interventions, things like that. **Michelle:** One of the things that I find is pretty common just in my own practice, is that. **Michelle:** there's a huge link of gut imbalance  **Michelle:** or, you know, gut microbiome  **Michelle:** imbalance and inflammation, you know, that is part of the contributor to the inflammation and can really impact PCOS conditions.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Because you know, if we, if that inflammation in the gut is going unchecked you know, that's also gonna drive that insulin resistance even more.  **Michelle:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** what are some of the tests that you do for PCOS? Functional  **Hannah:** Well, yeah. Well, first of all, I, I like to start with a Dutch test. It's a, have you heard of [00:16:00] Dutch? The Uhhuh? Yeah. Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah. So I would run a Dutch you know, so that we,  **Michelle:** out just for people  **Hannah:** yeah. Yes, **Michelle:** I've never heard of it before. So it's dried urine testing for comprehensive, or I forget  **Hannah:** it's a Dr. It's a. Yeah, yeah. Dried urine test for comprehensive hormones. I know I used to think, oh, it's of Dutch, like it's from the Dutch, like, you know, but it's just an abbreviation.  **Michelle:** right, right.  **Hannah:** But yes, it's a very unique way to look at hormones. 'cause traditionally before this test was available, you would have to rely on blood work for hormones. **Hannah:** And, you know, saliva for cortisol, which is okay, but it's just not great. So this test really helps us get a lot more specific, a lot more personalized, and helps us get some answers that would probably. Be left unanswered if we were just, you know, looking at, at blood work alone. So, you know, it's gonna tell us, you know, give us a snapshot [00:17:00] of all three sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone. **Hannah:** It's gonna show us how they're being metabolized in the liver. And then what I really like is it looks at your cortisol awakening response. So someone is struggling with sleep, mood, energy levels. Things like that that could also be driving your symptoms and, and your inflammation as well. So I, mm-hmm. **Michelle:** cortisol is your friend in the morning.  **Hannah:** Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then I like that it also has that organic acid test at the end there, which some of those other markers are gonna be important for looking at, for hormone production. So it's nice if they include that. So I, I like to do a Dutch, I also like to do HTMA testing, which stands for hair tissue mineral analysis. **Hannah:** Because, you know, you know, when we're looking at hormones it's, you know, we, we also wanna be, look thinking about minerals too because and not just like, our minerals through blood [00:18:00] work, but more on a cellular level. Like what is the body doing with those minerals? And how is your body utilizing them? **Hannah:** Are they even getting up into the cell? So, and we can, you know, you know, minerals, they impact hormones, which means they're gonna impact PCOS. So I like that one too. And it's like a little, it's a, it's a nice way to, I like it 'cause it's, it shows your body's like, it's like a blueprint. It shows you your stress pattern. **Hannah:** know how your body is using minerals after you've maybe gone through a season of. Really high stress and you know, the fertility journey too is so stressful on its own that I'm like, yeah, let's look at what your body does with all this stress and how we can really like, you know, deeply nourish your body and, you know, make it feel safe for ovulation. **Michelle:** Yeah, I know that there's a lot of minerals that you can't really test in blood and for example, magnesium. That's a **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** one to test for. So does this test for magnesium as well, like all [00:19:00] minerals or,  **Hannah:** yeah, yeah. It looks at all of the minerals. Specifically the ones that I'm gonna be focusing on. The minerals that impact PCS would be magnesium, zinc, calcium, iron selenium iodine. So, you know, and in a nutshell, you know, these, these minerals. they can exacerbate insulin resistance, hormonal imbalances, oxidative stress, which is important for like egg quality, sperm quality, things like that. **Hannah:** So women, get your men to your partner.  **Michelle:** Yes.  **Michelle:** So, so this is a hair test.  **Hannah:** yeah, it's a hair. They're using just like a teaspoon amount of your hair to analyze the mineral content in your tissues. **Michelle:** Fascinating. I know they've done those for like heavy metals and, and just testing the  **Hannah:** Yeah, yeah,  **Michelle:** I haven't heard of the mineral testing yet.  **Hannah:** yeah. And this, yeah. And this test does include heavy metals and we look at, mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** heavy metals. Oh, [00:20:00] okay.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** it's really high. Just like for people that don't have symptoms sometimes I almost feel like it's like high for everybody.  **Hannah:** The heavy metals. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and  **Michelle:** somebody who's not, who doesn't have like,  **Hannah:** yeah, and I mean, we we're exposed to heavy metals all of the time. It's, you know, it's, there's, it's kind of impossible to get around it, you know? It's in our food, our water, the soil, you know. And so my approach is, you know, we might see like an acute. **Hannah:** Exposure to the heavy metals. But what we wanna see is that you, you're able to detox and excrete those heavy metals safely. You know, that's why, you know, we have our detox organs, our liver, right? And so if I ever see those metals like pushing into the tissues, it's just a really good indication that, hey, your liver needs some. **Hannah:** Some attention, like we need to work on supporting that. And also working on not just our [00:21:00] detoxification organs, but our drainage pathways. So like our lymphatic system you know, making sure we're having daily bowel movements that we're sweating all of that. All of that stuff. Yeah.  **Michelle:** Yeah. **Michelle:** for sure. I think that that's key is really detoxifying, and I think that it, you had a good point. You mentioned the word safely because  **Michelle:** that can be an issue, like if you detoxify too harshly. I'm really big on that, especially when you're trying to conceive and you're actively trying, you definitely don't wanna do something that's so strong that it actually circulates more toxins in your bloodstream.  **Hannah:** That's right. Yeah. **Michelle:** So they have like binders, right? Or things  **Hannah:** Yeah, That is one approach for me. I rarely will do like a heavy metal detox with somebody. I will just wanna work with them on, you know, first the foundational things of, are we optimizing the gut health, the, you know, the liver function are we getting those drainage pathways [00:22:00] open? **Hannah:** Because your body should be able to do all that on its own if it's, you know, optimal. but I mean, if someone's already doing like a gut protocol or something with me, then yeah, they, they'll be taking like those types of supplements and then it'll, it'll still act on the heavy metals and things like that, as. **Michelle:** Interesting. So, what are some of the nutrient and lifestyle interventions specifically that you would do for PCOS? Or have you seen, because I, I do know that  **Hannah:** yeah.  **Michelle:** different types, so that could  **Hannah:** Yes.  **Michelle:** the type,  **Hannah:** Yes. Yeah. **Michelle:** the things that people should kind of like look out for, think about?  **Hannah:** Yeah. Yeah. So the first step is, is gonna be improving the quality of your food choices. So, you know, removing inflammatory oils, added sugars a lot of like processed, like ultra processed carbohydrates and, you know, with chemical and artificial additives. Things like that, you wanna replace them with whole real foods. **Hannah:** It's really that simple.  **Michelle:** Yeah. I [00:23:00] know,  **Hannah:** Yeah. Yeah. And then also, you know, the goal is to eat a sufficient amount of carbohydrates to promote ovulation, but while still focusing on those whole real. Food sources, like starchy veggies fruits and then unprocessed whole grains and legumes.  **Michelle:** So really from natural sources,  **Michelle:** complex car carbs. So it's not like simple carbs, not white, you know, avoid those like.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Right. So you, and you would want to make sure you're getting adequate amount of carbohydrates, but you know, if we're also dealing with insulin resistance, then we also need to be talking about you know, maintaining adequate calorie intake and just aiming for. Balance across all the macronutrients. **Hannah:** So, you know, we're pairing those carbohydrates with good quality sources of protein and healthy fats. And, if you're eating a more whole food carbs diet like. Your carbs are coming [00:24:00] from fruits like, and like root vegetables and things like that, then those foods are naturally gonna have more fiber in them, which is also gonna help with things like insulin resistance. **Hannah:** And then I would also be focusing on gut nourishing foods, like, bone broth probiotics from fermented foods, cultured. Products. And then lots of prebiotic fibers. So it also just making sure you're eating a wide range of, plant fibers. Like we're not just eating the same, spinach every day. **Hannah:** You know, let's really mix that up. Maybe like arugula, kale, you know. So that would be the where, where I would start with foods strategies. And then for lifestyle I would be really focusing on exercise. This is a really crucial tool in repairing insulin sensitivity and managing blood sugar levels. **Hannah:** So first I would just focus on increasing your daily movement. So, you know, maybe try tracking your steps. And then maybe you would wanna consider adding in some resistance [00:25:00] training and some short hit style workouts. Since those really show the most metabolic improvements. In general I would avoid, I would avoid like, really long duration cardio on a regular baseball basis, since that's like very stressful on the body. **Hannah:** So exercise is number one. Stress management is key. I know we've already kind of touched on that a little bit. You know, that's a big piece of hormonal. Balance balance since the, your adrenal health, you know, has the ability to impact the function of your sex hormones. I would just evaluate the sources of your stress. **Hannah:** You know, I like to think of it like a bucket, like a stress bucket, and we have all these different inputs pouring in. Some of those things we can't really remove, but some things we can, you can control your nutrition and your sleep quality. You know, you can maybe work on energetic boundaries, right? **Hannah:** Maybe you wanna include things like meditation or [00:26:00] journaling, acupuncture, right? Those are all really nice ways to support yourself. And then sleep. Sleep is also like so major. That's when you know when you're, you can get good quality sleep at night. That's when your, your body's repairing tissue. **Hannah:** And it, it has a lot to do with your hormones, like in like your like your hunger hormones, those ones and then also like cortisol, melatonin, things like that. Everything that just keeps all of the systems working together smoothly. So, yep. Do you. **Michelle:** of sleep. There's a, there like a lot of times we'll increase sugar cravings 'cause you want that quick energy. So  **Hannah:** Yes, **Michelle:** that's one example of how that can impact  **Hannah:** exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you have like one poor night of sleep, it increases your hunger hormone levels pretty significantly. So we'll see that that issue popping up time and time again. Yeah, so.[00:27:00]  **Michelle:** yeah. And I also have heard, in some  **Michelle:** of like go, literally pivot into autoimmune and how you can address that in the case of Hashimoto's? **Michelle:** 'cause it is so prevalent and a lot of people have it. The first thing that I say is, cut out gluten, corn, and dairy and soy if you can. Now, I always say if you can't do all of them, at least cut out the gluten entirely and talk to us about like what you've done and what you've found to be helpful. **Michelle:** 'cause it is something that if you catch early, you really can sh shift a lot just from diet alone.  **Hannah:** Oh, yes. Yeah, and I've helped. Hundreds of women with that. Exactly. Just you know, we [00:28:00] see, I've seen different stages of, Hashimoto's. You know, so if it's like, you know, stage one where we're seeing the presence of antibodies and maybe they have symptoms, maybe they don't. A lot of those women typically will present with like subclinical hypothyroidism. **Hannah:** So like their thyroid labs look fine. But they're like, I, feel tired all the time. I'm constipated. I can't lose weight, you know? So the first thing I would start with is kinda getting ahead of things with, 'cause the majority of your immune system is in your gut. So I would be doing a GI would run a stool sample, a GI map and see what's going on there. **Hannah:** Because there's different things that could be driving. That immune response. Yeah. It could be coming from things in the diet like gluten. And that test certainly will show us if you're having an immune response to gluten. So in those cases, I would have those clients cut, cut that out. And some people they, they don't, they don't run the test and they [00:29:00] cut out gluten, but they just feel better without it. **Michelle:** See that a lot.  **Hannah:** mm-hmm. I do too. Just kind of anecdotally. I was just gonna say that I think it is because of like, what, what they're spraying on our crops.  **Michelle:** Yeah, **Hannah:** Yep. know that it can impact hormones like big time, that's  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** one for sure.  **Hannah:** Yeah. So, and then, you know, obviously if there's a inflammation or like leaky gut.  **Hannah:** You know, we're gonna wanna address that anyway because that could be driving that immune response and making your symptoms worse, making the antibodies levels worse, right? So I really wanna just get ahead of it with the gut number one. **Hannah:** And then I like to do mineral testing as well, since so many minerals, not only impact PCOS, but they impact your thyroid.  **Michelle:** That's a huge  **Hannah:** Yes, selenium. This is a common thing that I see. I'll see really high amounts of calcium in the [00:30:00] tissues. And that's gonna block your thyroid hormone from getting up into the cell. **Hannah:** So like maybe their thyroid panel looks great, but that, or they're already taking a thyroid medication, but they're, they feel like it's not doing anything for them. I'm like, look, you have a lot of calcium in your tissues. And so like, that's your thyroid hormone's not even getting up into the cell. So of course you wouldn't feel an impact there. **Hannah:** And that also is. **Michelle:** actually? What causes that? Calcification?  **Hannah:** So, I typically see that from over supplementing with vitamin D. So, that will pull the calcium out of the bone and teeth. And put it into the tissues. Yeah. A lot of people get put on vitamin D by their doctor, like maybe they had low levels at one point, and then their doctor never talked to them about weaning off of the vitamin D. **Hannah:** They just kept taking it.  **Michelle:** too high. Yeah.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Or they'll start them off like a really high dose, like I've seen like 50,000 units of, of vitamin. Yeah. [00:31:00] And they, and they just keep taking it like, then they're never told like, Hey, you're actually supposed to tapered off of that after a couple months. I've also seen an influx of people on vitamin D, zinc you know, ever since the pandemic. **Hannah:** So they just kept taking it and they don't know how that's impacted their. Mine. So, so yeah, that's one culprit. I, I'll see. The other thing that I notice, and this is pretty prevalent in the autoimmune community is, and I don't think it's talked about a lot, is significant trauma and certain types of trauma. **Hannah:** It, it's like we call when we see this pattern on an htm. It, we call it a calcium shell where the calcium and the magnesium levels are really high in the tissues. And then we are like really depleted in things like potassium and sodium and other secondary minerals. And it's kind of like the body's way of shielding itself from feeling [00:32:00] big, like feeling really big emotions. **Hannah:** So like a lot of these clients, I, I'll talk to them about this and they have such a flat effect, like with the then we start moving the calcium out of the tissues and then they become, they're, it's like they really need more emotional support throughout that process. It's very interesting. I'm about to actually do an HTMA on myself. **Hannah:** It's been a couple of years, but I've just gone, I'm grieving my mom right now and I, yeah, and it's just been a really rough couple of months. I've just been just going through the motions and kind of in that, like taking care of her, taking care of my girls. Like just everything that we've gone through leading up to this point. **Hannah:** And I'm like, I am so curious to know what's going on with my minerals right now. I would not be surprised if I was having calcium going into my tissues. 'cause I believe that's what was my pattern last [00:33:00] time I ran the test a few years ago. So.  **Michelle:** Oh, that's interesting.  **Hannah:** It's like, yeah, this is my, my unique pattern, you know, so I see that a lot with Hashimoto's and yeah, and, and it's interesting because that pattern, like the high calcium in the tissues and the low potassium, that's really really common with like thyroid stuff in general because, you know, first of all, that calcium's blocking the thyroid. **Hannah:** Hormone from getting up into the cell. It's also gonna be blocking insulin signaling. So there is gonna be a lot of blood sugar swings, and that's gonna be driving the inflammation, making that worse. And then the low potassium, well, you know, potassium is needed for thyroid function as well. So, I see that pattern a lot with that population and it's so fascinating. **Hannah:** And I would just say like, I wouldn't say it's like. It's more like anecdotal, right? Like and you probably see that too in your practice. Yeah. Yeah.  **Michelle:** For different things, not this [00:34:00] specifically, but Yeah. **Michelle:** I mean, you see a lot of that and that's, that matters just because studies are very expensive to have and you can't  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** rely just on studies. You have to really rely on data in general, like your own experience  **Hannah:** Oh, absolutely. **Michelle:** there's so much information that you can get just from that. And then, couple of things. One of the things is, I know that Zyme has been shown to really help, it's an enzyme, it's a pro oleic enzymes that break apart, like fibrous tissue. So I'm curious to  **Hannah:** Oh **Michelle:** if it would help with excess calcium or, you know, deposits because it, it works to break down  **Hannah:** yeah,  **Michelle:** really needed in the body.  **Hannah:** yeah. Yeah.  **Michelle:** up.  **Hannah:** Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah, because when we see, usually the calcium in the tissues is also associated with things like restless leg syndrome, kidney stones, gallstones, all that stuff, you know, because it's just calcification of the tissues. [00:35:00] Right. What I do is I'll get, if that person is, has actually been on vitamin D what I'll do is I'll say, okay, let's just pause on the vitamin D and then I'll get them on, a form of vitamin K two that will target that calcium in the tissues and, and bring it, redirect it back to the bones. So we'll do that for several months. And if that person's still concerned about their, their vitamin D levels and say, let's just get that checked, you know, and depending on where you're at with that, you, you either, you know, probably need supplementation time from time to time, or maybe just during the winter, right? **Hannah:** But it's not a long term. You know, supplement for you because of this pattern, this pattern that you typically have. **Michelle:** Another thing that I was gonna mention is, we were talking about like, antibodies.  **Michelle:** I remember, One of my patients mentioning she had like a, 'cause I was talking to an REI and I was gonna have him, I had him on the podcast and so she had some questions and she had a very low amount of [00:36:00] antibodies that are considered normal. And he said no, because the presence of any antibody, and that's what's crazy to me.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** normal in labs  **Hannah:** Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. The reference ranges for conventional labs or like in more like conventional healthcare settings. They're not, they're designed to show like if you have a chronic disease or not. Not necessarily if you're optimal. Right. Like thriving, you know? **Michelle:** have any, even if it's like minute, it means that there's an autoimmune, like  **Hannah:** Right. And.  **Michelle:** your thyroid.  **Hannah:** Yeah, and I mean, my first thought is like, and just because I've worked in that arena for so long, is I think it's just because they need to have a diagnose, a diagnosis for a chronic disease, number one, so that they can build insurance and blah, blah, blah.  **Michelle:** Yeah, yeah, yeah.  **Hannah:** So they typically can't treat you. They can't, they [00:37:00] technically can't treat you. **Hannah:** Like they don't really run on a, it's more of like a sick care model. It's not really, they can't really treat you for like prevention. Right. That's not like that that's not how insurance companies work. So, I think that that's, that's my theory on that. But, you know, but to, to answer your question, yes, I, I see, low levels that aren't considered Hashimoto's,  **Michelle:** Right?  **Hannah:** but I would label that early stages or stage one, and I would say, let's work, let's, let's order GI Map. **Hannah:** Let's look at what your minerals are doing like that impact your thyroid. Let's just, just start helping you feel better right away so that we can go into remission. I would much rather my client like, just go ahead and work on those things instead of waiting until it's like, you know, now we're seeing tissue damage, you know, and there's a lot of practices. **Hannah:** I don't,  **Michelle:** it if it's early enough, like, but if it's  **Hannah:** yeah.  **Michelle:** really like far gone,  **Hannah:** Yeah. It can, and I don't know if you've run [00:38:00] across this a lot in your practice or with your clients, but I've been told a lot of times that they weren't even able to request or see a specialist or an endocrinologist, I guess, until they were able to see tissue damage. And it's like, wouldn't you wanna just prevent the tissue damage? **Michelle:** crazy to me. Yeah.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I'm, you know, I just like to get on it like right away, even if it's like, you know, your antibodies are like five, you know?  **Michelle:** yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really low, but still,  **Hannah:** Yeah. Really low. Yeah. It's worth working on. Yeah. **Michelle:** I had actually just recently, I had a case where her TSH was like five and she's young, she's in her twenties. And I'm  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** not normal.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** just a little abnormal. **Michelle:** But that's not a little abnormal for try somebody trying to conceive.  **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** and under. So if you  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** the thing. If you go to a general doctor or even an ob, they are a little more general in women's health.  **Hannah:** Yeah. **Michelle:** they're not going [00:39:00] to look at it the same way as an REI is gonna look at it, which is a reproductive endocrinologist and they're gonna  **Hannah:** Right.  **Michelle:** it a completely different perspective.  **Michelle:** Yeah, so it's, so those things I think a lot of people just don't realize and they're going in and they get the wrong information or they don't get like the full information and many years go by and it's kind of like, you know, that's why it's so important to really get ahead of it. **Hannah:** Yeah, absolutely. I think you're, you're worthy of feeling better, you know, if, does it have to be something that's chronic or.  **Michelle:** Right.  **Hannah:** Like full on disease state before just feeling better. **Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. So for people who, you know, are curious and wanna learn more about what you do,  **Michelle:** um, what are some of the things that you offer online? Where can people find you? I.  **Hannah:** So for people who are wanting to work one-on-one with me or maybe just start off with [00:40:00] a consultation or some have some labs done you can find me at through Pivot Nutrition Coaching. So the website is pivot nutrition coaching com. And then if, for my social media, I'm on Instagram with Hannah. **Michelle:** Awesome. I'll have all the notes anyway. If anybody like is curious or wants to know exactly how it's written out or find the link, you can find those on the episode notes. So Hannah, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a great conversation. I love really digging deep on just what goes on with these conditions that so many people hear about that are trying to conceive, but they don't really understand it. **Michelle:** And I think. There's so much power and knowledge and understanding and kind of like going beneath the surface. So I think this is one of the things that I like to do on the show is really to educate people on like really what's going on. So you've really shared some great, valuable information, so thank you so much, Hannah.[00:41:00]  **Hannah:** Thank you so much for having me and I, I think that this is such an important, important conversation to have and a valuable platform, so it's really an honor to be here. And hope we can chat again soon. **Michelle:** Thank you.         

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