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After ten years of the #amwriting podcast, KJ, Jess, and Sarina are marking a milestone—and a transition. In this episode, the longtime hosts reflect on what the writing world looked like when the show began and share their best advice for writers trying to do meaningful work. They also pass the microphone to Jennie, who will carry the podcast into its next chapter.Moving forward, Jennie will keep the show focused on helping writers do their best work and make smart decisions about their writing lives. Expect familiar features and new conversations, including Write Big solo episodes, Book Lab breakdowns of listener submissions, coaching sessions with writers across genres, and Margin Notes exploring the thinking behind creative choices. The mission remains the same: helping writers play big in their writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash and you're listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.KJ: Hey everyone. I'm kj and you are listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.So today is a big day. We're we'reJess: big day.KJ: Yeah. We're celebrating the 10th year of the hashtag am writing podcast, which I have to say is officially the longest I've been able to sustain any job-like thing. Um, and we're announcing that we're going in a new direction. So this is really cool. After a decade of talking to y'all, um, Jess and I and then [00:01:00] Sarina, who is at minus a decade. I don't wanna, um, have decided to step back and hand over the reins to Jennie.Jess: YeahJennie: It is, it is such a big milestone and such a big deal. And before we. Actually say goodbye to the three of you. I mean, it's not forever. You're coming back as guests, all of you, all the time, hopefully.KJ: Oh, heck yes. Absolutely. You, you, you and I have already planned all the things, so don't get too excited and, and weepy here folks, but things are just, things are gonna be. New and fresh and more interesting and, uh, more craft filled and more inspirational. When I need inspiration to write, I look for one of our episodes.That's Jennie. So I think this is gonna be, this is gonna be great.Jennie: I think it's gonna be great too. But before we actually say goodbye, I mean, 10. Is a long time and I thought it would be fun to ask you all what it was like 10 [00:02:00] years ago when you started, and Sarina 10 minus whatever the time is, but what was the writing landscape like as a whole maybe for you, and then all this wisdom, all these years that you've shared.What's, what's the thing that sticks in your head the most is what you would want to leave with, with the listeners, what is the your best piece of writing advice from all of this time? So. Jess, why don't you start? You're the og.Jess: Well, I, I definitely wanted to start. For those people who have not been around since the very beginning, you have to understand that it's really horrifying when people say they go back and like start from the beginning because, um, and we'll be posting pictures in the show notes.I have a ton of pictures throughout the years, but we originally, um, we, we would go into this little, I had a tiny, tiny house and we would go into the eve space off of my daughter's room. And it was raw insulation with a light bulb, and we sat on the floor and it was [00:03:00] like. Maybe at the tallest point, maybe four feet high, so you had to kind of crawl in.And I have a picture of us, um, podcasting from inside there. And it was, and it was very hot in the summer. It would get very, very hot. My house did not have air conditioning and um. But it was delightful and it was this thing that we had talked about doing for such a long time, and I was so proud of us.And mainly it was kj. KJ was the one who said, we're not gonna talk about this anymore, we're just gonna do it. So she got us into gear and just brought her stuff over to my house in her basket and said, let's go. Let's do it. And we bought microphones and everything and it was. It was a big new adventure.And if you had said, then, how long do you think this is gonna last? I don't know that I would've said 10 years. But there's, you know, then Sarina came in and, and Sarina has, has been a part of this as a guest since the very beginning too. And a couple of things that I wanted to share were that one time Sarina and KJ and I, uh, were doing a [00:04:00] double, a double header episode and I forgot to hit record for both of them.And so. We did this incredibly fun, very long episode, broken into two pieces that, um, it went off into the ether and. I did learn from that. And then at the same time, by the time we were sort of on our game enough to be able to really interview people, we went up to Maine to interview Richard Russo and we went to record at his daughter's wonderful bookstore in Portland, Maine.And um, I had three modes of recording. I had, um. Two microphones and I had a handheld digital thing that I had on the table between us and, um, mode one failed and mode two failed. And so the only thing we had was, you know, our little digital handheld on the table in between us. So. There's a lot of stuff like that.There was the moment I got to text KJ and tell her that we were getting David [00:05:00] Sedaris, there was the day she emailed me to tell me that we were getting Anna Quinlan. You know, and I just so many cool things that, um. It makes me so happy that we've produced something good out of all of that. And one last thing.The, the, the thing that I think I've learned the most is there is no one right way to do this. That every single time I hear about, like whether it's the, you have to write, writer write every day, you have to write every day, or you have to write in a certain way, or you have to write in a certain place, or you have to write with the door closed, or you have to write with the door open, all of those things.Um, none of those are rules. None of them are rules. They're things that people do and I'm really glad that I've had the opportunity to talk to a lot of people about all the different ways they do it.Jennie: That's amazing. Um, kj, do you remember this, uh, light bulb and no insulation time? KJ: Oh yeah. I don't remember the time you didn't record particularly just ‘cause it happened more than once. And [00:06:00] the other thing I would throw in is that the more famous, the guest, the. Less interesting. They were, it was almostKJ: always true. Jess: It wasn them. It was, yeah. I think we got all jacked up about like, I don't know. It just,Jess: I don't know.Wasn David Sari's advice to young writers was the worst.KJ: Yeah. It advice really wasJess: anyone has ever given, itKJ: was,Jess: yeah, a writer. He said, don't submit your work. Don't ask. Don't try to get you, wait for people to read it. Wait for people to ask you if they can read it.KJ: Yeah,Jess: that's which this, this is, KJ: this worked for him. He is an NF one and it will not work for you.Jess: Right. Yeah, I think thatKJ: my favorite, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna lay it out there. I'm not even gonna put any caveats on that. That won't work.Jess It won't work.KJ: No. I think it's always been the most fun when we get in deep into the craft and anytime someone is too practiced with their answers or it's the same answer they've given a million times.You're [00:07:00] right. It was cold and it was, um, it just wasn't good.Sarina: Yeah. So the more fun people were always the people who were really in it with us.KJ: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: So, Sarina, do you know when you came in, do you know what the, the n minus number is?Sarina: No, because I was a guest star even before we got out of the, the, um, kgs closet.It's true. It's true.KJ: One of those not recorded episodes was recorded in the eve space. That's true. We had, we roped during fairly early.Jennie: Yeah. In that 10 years, you've probably written more. More than, well, how many books have you written in that time? Sarina, I mean,Sarina: um, 50. At 50 50 ish.Jennie: That's crazy. That's crazy. So what do you know now that you didn't know then?Sarina: Oh, so much, so much that, like giving advice, you know, I, I [00:08:00] now feel like less qualified to give advice than I did then, you know how that goes. Like, the job gets harder, not easier. I have a, a good working vocabulary for why, but it doesn't make me feel like anybody's, you know, special savior.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. What do you remember about starting in and the, the, um, all these episodes? What sticks in your mind asSarina: you know? Um, I loved the opportunity to talk to people who I think are fantastic. I also learned that I am not a fantastic interviewer and that, and that, um. That isn't a skill of mine that I, it's, there's so many things, like I'm so busy, I write so many books.I can't learn to be the interviewer that you deserve. So I only. Did interviews selectively and sometimes they were just so fun. Like, [00:09:00] um, the, the person who broke broke the mold about the interview being interesting, the more famous they are was Emily Henry. ‘cause she was Oh yeah. She was fun to talk to.She was just right there with us and, and ready to have a good time and, and so wise and also so, so nice. And that, that's really great when you can talk to somebody who's killing it in your own genre and you know, they're just so wonderful about it. Um, and then, you know, then we had the odd, very sweaty interview where nothing seems to go according to plan.And I won't name the author because I do admire this person very much, but they were not. Willing to take any expertise onto themselves. So KJ and I just sweated all the way through this interview trying to get this person to, to tell us KJ: Say something. Say anything.Sarina: Yeah. Tell us how you feel, you know?KJ: Yeah.Sarina: And it could not be done.KJ: Nope.Sarina: So, you know, that one, I, [00:10:00] I will never re-listened to that one, but, um, but I really, what I got out of it, honestly, was spending time with all of you guys, and you teach me things every single day. And another thing about this job is that I find that I have to relearn the best lessons over and over again.And when you are compelled to speak lucidly about your job, you know, a couple of times a month, um, it forces a certain reckoning with your own skill and expertise. Like I might say that I, you know, don't want to be anybody's, um, masterclass, but I really do know a lot at this point and, um, every time I talk to you guys and we'd, and we gathered together like this, I always learn something.Jess: I love, I think Sarina is the most amazing explainer and teacher. And so getting to learn, um, especially, you know, in these [00:11:00] recent, uh, nerd Corner Publishing Nerd Corner episodes, it's been so cool to just learn from her. It's really, really fun. And, you know, if, if we take it all the way back, like the first, your first romance novels, you know.We're just coming out when we just, when we started this thing. It's just been such an incredible journey from there to where we are now. The other thing that's been really cool is that this podcast has made me really accountable to my goals and to, you know, not that. You guys also do that for me. But saying things out loud in front of other people has always been my, the thing that has saved me, whether that's about my recovery or, um, you know, whatever it is.Um, people talk to me all the time and say, you know, was it hard to come out publicly about, you know, being an alcoholic? I'm like, absolutely not. It's what's kept me sober. And I feel the same way about the writing, that when I talk to, um, the listeners that I, I feel like. Someone may [00:12:00] come along someday and ask how that, uh, that goal of mine is going. And, and I like that.Jennie: Yeah. That's so good. Kj, what, what are your best memories and, um, best, best advice that you've gotten or, or given?KJ Well, you know, spend 10 years, so it is a long time ago, but I do remember the time Jess was riding her dinosaur to my house to record and got hit by a snowplow. Mm-hmm. Um, that was, that was good times.Jess: Yep.KJ: We have Snow Fred Dinosaurs up here. Yep. In New Hampshire. Um, the Sedaris thing that was, that was just funny and also really cool ‘cause I have such deep admiration for, for him, and I'm quite certain that if somehow he ever heard. I, he would not care. We think that was terrible advice.Jess: What's also really was really funny about that one is this is an only David Sedera sort of situation where, oh Lord, he, he has said very specifically that he, during COVID, he refused.To get Zoom, any [00:13:00] kind of zoom sort of situation. So we had to, we went all the way to Concord to,KJ: this wasn't Coco COVID, this was before that. No, no, no. I, I know, but I'm saying like, he has, this is not new information. He has said very publicly that he doesn't do likeJess: Oh, yeah. So he wouldn't even, even let us have somebody bring him a laptop to his apartment.Right. And set it up for us, which we were like, happy to do, butKJ: Yeah. Yeah. We had to go there.Jess: So he called and yeah, we went to NHPR in Concord and, uh, our, and our wonderful producer Andrew was. Able to get everything connected for us. Um, but it was one of those moments where, you know, we are constantly talking about how to like bend over backwards to get marketing and get people to listen to what we have to say.And yet, even though he puts obstacles in the path of people who want to hear what he has to say, they will gladly jump through those hoops, uh, for him.Jess: Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. I mean, you know, so kind of him to do it.KJ: Yes. Anyway, I mean, that was super funnyJess: and, and I am looking at my wall that [00:14:00] has the postcard, the thank you postcard that he sent us.So when he says he sends thank you notes to everyone, he sends thank you notes to everyone because we got one. And from what I understand, he sends them to every bookseller, every person who drives them everywhere. He sends thank you notes to everyone.Jennie: Wow. That's what I think of when I think of you, Jess.mThat's a thing you do too. You're so good at that. Well, I, I have to say that I have been a listener for this whole time, and the thing that you all brought was. This authenticity, this sense of what it's really like to do this work. And you all are writing such different things and so accomplished at those things, and your willingness to kind of just open, open it up and share what that looks like with no, you know, varnish over it or, or you know, polished.Just like, this is what it's really like and this is who we are and this is how it happens, and [00:15:00] that the work gets done in such. Messy circumstances and, um, that lesson and, and that generosity of showing people that that's true. Which kind of goes to what you were saying, Jess, like there is no way, but, but also just doing the work is the way and.That's what you have all modeled and continue to model, and obviously,KJ well, that's what I want people to take away from this. Mm-hmm. Is listen. Okay. We're joking that 10 years is a long time and 10 years is a long time. It's a long time to do anything. But also 10 years ago I had one book to my name. And you've never heard of it.It was called Reading with Babies, toddlers, and Twos, and it got me all my other jobs. Jess had no books to her name. Mm-hmm. 10 years ago, Sarina Couple not, you know, just, just, just barely getting started. Jennie actually had a ton of books to her name, but that's, you know, that's a different story. So here we were.10 years ago sat down and said, [00:16:00] we are gonna do these things. And we did not all, I mean, it wasn't, nobody came and asked us for it. All of David Saris. Um, nobody had, none of us had instant success. You know, no one called up and said, Hey, can I do this? And like immediately got articles in the New Yorker or whatever.Uh, publishers were not banging down our doors. We. We were banging down theirs and we were all very determined to, um, to make this a professional endeavor. The, the podcast and the writing and the books and all of it. And so I guess what I'm saying is I don't know where you are listener, but wherever you wanna be in 10 years.Uh, you know, maybe you won't get exactly there. I wouldn't say any of us has gotten exactly there ‘cause we're not done. But still, we came a long way in 10 years and I would like to see other people, [00:17:00] um, sit down and actually do the thing so you can go to the place.Jess: That's been one of the big joys, I think, also of this podcast is seeing other people's work happen.Like hearing from listeners that, oh my gosh, I hadn't started my book. I was trying to get motivated to start my book, and then I created this proposal and now the book is coming out, and that's, I, I, I just, I can't, I can hardly wrap my brain around that. Um, it's been a really amazing progression and the, the group of people that have sort of coalesced around listening to this podcast and getting in, in touch, some of them have become friends and that's been really amazing too.Sarina: I hope what some people will take away from this, um, is that very few people who do what we do are truly trained for it. You know, I don't have an MFAI don't KJ and just don't have journalism degrees. They have law degrees instead. But, um, you can, you can [00:18:00] do this on the job training. That's what we did.That's what you listened to us do. And I'm reminded of that, um, quote by El Doctoral. You know, writing a book is like driving at night with the headlights on. You can. You can't see the whole distance, um, but you can still get to your destination. And there was this Time when KJ and I were debating this quote on this podcast and KJ said, yeah, but the last time we went driving at night, we almost hit a bunny.And it was true. And I think that what might be the, one of the times I laughed the hardest on this podcast.Jess: You know, it's also interesting, I was thinking that, um, you know how I said that there isn't one way to do things, and even the way that we do things has evolved over time and like Sarina has learned how to, has become a coffee shop writer and has learned how to write in other places.And I've learned how to write in other places and I never used to be able to do that. Um, [00:19:00] so how we get the work done really has. Uh, evolved with the needs of what's going on around us and what our career needs from us, and, and that's been really pleasant. Pleasant to watch too.Jennie: Well, it's been an honor to listen to you all and to be, uh, working alongside you.And I am, I'm thrilled to be carrying the show forward. I have lots of big ideas to bring to these episodes To continue to center the writer and the writing and getting the work done in authentic conversations about what it takes, both from a craft perspective and a mindset perspective. So I'll be reaching out soon for submissions to book Lab because that's gonna continue with a twist and I will be letting you know about what's coming. Um, for sure. New episodes with our producer Andrew, who's stepped out from behind the mic, um, as you heard last week. And I'll be continuing to coach him forward, which will be really [00:20:00] fun. So lots of good stuff coming and I appreciate your ongoing support and I appreciate.Getting you to stand on the shoulders of these three incredible writers and entrepreneurs and thinkers and friends, and, um, thank you all.KJ Thank you. I'm just so glad. Thank you guys to see this, uh, keep going and to become a little bit more of a passenger. I have very much been the driver for the past few years.Um, Jess had her turn in the, in the driving seat and Sarina said from day one, no, no, I am buddy, humble guest. So, um, I'm so thrilled that you're taking over and I am excited to listen when I am not part of it, and to also continue to be part of it. Yay. Thank you guys.Jennie: Thank you all so, so much.Hey, why don't you, uh, why don't you take us out?KJ No, no. Jess has to take us out. It's cool. That's the tradition.Jess: Alright. And actually coming up with our, this little bit of the show happened in the eve space, so [00:21:00] it's a very. Yeah, that's a sentimental phrase for me too. So until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.Jess: The hashtag am writing podcast. Is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Adam Cole tags in for Dan to talk (at length) with Justin about Auburn spring football, NIT basketball and some red-hot baseball. Topics for this episode include:* why the first day of spring practice under Alex Golesh felt different* the importance of culture-building in the early days* Byrum Brown making the most early of his elevated platform* Tree Newsom, Da'Shawn Womack and other gigantic Auburn football players* Adam makes a point about Shamar Arnoux* Justin buys more Jeremiah Koger stock* how Auburn basketball shook off a slow start to beat South Alabama* Ke'Shawn Murphy's surprising opt-out* Keyshawn Hall's surprising performance* why Auburn kept shooting all those 3s — and why they started falling* Kaden Magwood staying right and staying ready, against the odds* Kevin Overton's “diplomatic honesty” and some better defense in the second half* a brief look ahead to the Seattle game in the second round* Adam's breakdown of why Auburn baseball has gotten off to a crazy start* the Tigers' elite pitching staff and top-to-bottom offense* Hot Dog Math* Justin's review of the new limited edition M&M flavors* Adam's story involving a five-pound Reese's CupIf you're receiving this free podcast episode and would like to upgrade to a paid subscription that gives you access to all stories and premium podcast episodes — for a special discounted price of just $40 for your first year — subscribe using the button below or clicking this link.Follow Adam (@colereporter) and Justin (@JFergusonAU) on Twitter. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.auburnobserver.com/subscribe

Looking for the hottest MM, enemies-to-lovers book about hockey that inspired a hit Netflix show? Well we've got you covered! This week we read "Heated Rivalry" by Rachel Reid and it everything we had hoped and so much more. Like, way more. Maybe more than we needed?Mean Book Club is four ladies (UCB, BuzzFeed, College Humor, Impractical Jokers) who read, discuss and whine about NYT bestselling books that have questionable literary merit. It's fun. It's cathartic. It's perfect for your commute. New podcast (almost) every Tuesday! Here's the Season 21 reading list:Rose in Chains by Julie SotoHeated Rivalry by Rachel ReidNinth House by Leigh BardugoPowerless by Lauren RobertsThe Secret of Secrets by Dan BwonRemarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van PeltSometimes I Lie by Alice FeeneyQuicksilver by Callie HartSend any future book suggestions to meanbookclub@gmail.com! Follow us on the socials @meanbookclub!Rate, like, subscribe, and check out our Patreon page at patreon.com/meanbookclub to become a true patron of the mean arts.CREDITS: Hosted by Sarah Burton, Clara Morris, Johnna Scrabis, & Sabrina B. Jordan. This episode was produced and edited by Sarah Burton and Blake Opper. Special thanks to FSM Team for our theme song, "Parkour Introvert." You can get it here: https://www.free-stock-music.comBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/mean-book-club--3199521/support.

Mastering Ecosystem Growth and AI Transformation Subscribe to our Newsletter:https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this episode, Vince Menzione sits down with Rebecca Jones, Chief Growth Officer of Bridge Partners, to deconstruct the “Power of Three” co-selling model and the shift from AI experimentation to scalable business outcomes. They explore the critical importance of customer-centricity, the role of agentic workflows in solving complex B2B problems, and why the most successful leaders prioritize progress over perfection to show momentum within weeks rather than years. From her background in the financial sector to her experience scaling with industry titans like Microsoft, Rebecca provides a masterclass on navigating the current “tectonic shifts” in technology through strategic alignment and executive commitment. Key Takeaways Bridge Partners focuses on connecting strategy to execution, boasting a 90% referral rate driven by deep expertise in product marketing and partner ecosystems. The market is shifting from mere AI “dabbling” to purposeful applications in MVP and scale, specifically through agentic AI that tackles real business problems. Success in today's landscape requires knowing your underlying value and maintaining an unwavering focus on customer-centricity. The “Power of Three” (Hyperscaler, GSI, and ISV) remains the ultimate design for go-to-market scaling, provided there is a clear joint value proposition. To show immediate momentum, new executives should focus on “quick wins” achievable within six to eight weeks rather than long-term three-year plans. Effective co-selling requires removing blockers like compensation misalignment and securing top-down executive sponsorship across all leadership silos. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. https://youtu.be/nClWjCm6S6A At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags Rebecca Jones, Bridge Partners, Chief Growth Officer, co-selling, Power of Three, Hyperscaler, GSI, ISV, SAP, Microsoft, agentic AI, AI experimentation, pipeline velocity, pre-sales workshops, account-based marketing, ABM on steroids, GTM strategy, executive sponsorship, partnership ecosystems, B2B growth, tech industry trends 2026, Ultimate Partner, Vince Menzione, orchestration, value proposition. Transcript Rebecca Jones Audio Episode [00:00:00] Rebecca Jones: Because most of the agents I’ve seen drop into um, a lot of the areas where you and I can download are features. [00:00:07] Vince Menzione: Yes, [00:00:08] Rebecca Jones: they’re really feature agents. I love where we are ’cause we’re starting to tackle real business problems. [00:00:17] Vince Menzione: We just finished Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat here in beautiful Boca to a sold out crowd. Today I’m joined by Rebecca Jones, the Chief Growth Officer of Bridge Partners for this compelling discussion. Rebecca, welcome to the podcast. [00:00:33] Rebecca Jones: Thank you, Vince. [00:00:34] Vince Menzione: I am so thrilled to have you in Boca in the studio. [00:00:37] Vince Menzione: We’ve been working together now for a couple of years. We [00:00:39] Rebecca Jones: have, [00:00:40] Vince Menzione: and yesterday we were at the Ultimate Partner live executive winter retreat here in Boca. Uh, we’re recording in late February, early March timeframe. And, uh, just it was so thrilling to have everyone in the room yesterday. [00:00:55] Rebecca Jones: Was it? I mean, the energy. [00:00:56] Rebecca Jones: It was amazing. [00:00:57] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:00:58] Rebecca Jones: it was amazing. And thank you so much for having me. I mean, Florida’s gorgeous this time of year. It’s nice to get outta Seattle. [00:01:04] Vince Menzione: Well, it’s, it’s always, I, I, we, we love Seattle. Yes, we love, we do love to be in Seattle and especially in the spring, which we’ll be there together. We’ll talk about that in a little bit, but, um. [00:01:14] Vince Menzione: This is our first time actually having an interview. I mean, we’ve had you on stage. Yes. We’ve had Bridge as a part. Bridge Partners has been a partner. It’s ultimate partner. How’s that? And, uh, you’ve led some workshops. You help organizations to be successful and I thought just like to start out like, tell us more about you. [00:01:32] Vince Menzione: Yeah, bridge Partner and your role at Bridge Partners. And, uh, just to frame, to frame the conversation today. [00:01:40] Rebecca Jones: Okay. Of course. So let me tell you a little bit about my background. Um, I’ve been in the technology industry for a few decades now, and I started within the product and go to market, side of the house. [00:01:54] Nice. [00:01:54] Rebecca Jones: And I’ve navigated across a number of functional areas. From product to partner and sales. [00:02:02] Vince Menzione: So product development, [00:02:04] Rebecca Jones: engineering, [00:02:04] Vince Menzione: product marketing. Product marketing. [00:02:05] Rebecca Jones: Product marketing. [00:02:06] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:02:07] Rebecca Jones: Yes. And so when you look back on the areas of where I focus my time, it’s really how do you help customers grow and how do you help companies grow? [00:02:17] Rebecca Jones: Um, and a lot of my background is in B2B. [00:02:20] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:02:21] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:02:21] Vince Menzione: And where’d you get your start? [00:02:23] Rebecca Jones: I started actually in the financial sector. [00:02:26] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:02:27] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, [00:02:27] Vince Menzione: very cool. That’s, well, that’s a good grounding and [00:02:30] Rebecca Jones: it’s an excellent grounding. And when you look back, and when I look back at what that provided as a foundation, it’s really the economics of a business and how do you help a business and what are the trend lines behind that by industry and and whatnot. [00:02:45] Rebecca Jones: And so I moved from that over to. More agency view, and so the real market facing view and then back inside to really look at how companies develop their products and bring ’em to market. [00:02:56] Vince Menzione: That’s an exciting, well, I think it’s exciting. I hope our listeners and viewers think it’s exciting and I know Bridge Partners because when I was at Microsoft, we worked with Bridge Partners. [00:03:06] Vince Menzione: But for the listeners and viewers that are with us today, maybe a little bit of background about the company and its, and its structure and go to market. [00:03:13] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, of course. So Bridge Partners is almost 20 years old. [00:03:18] Vince Menzione: Wow. [00:03:19] Rebecca Jones: Wow. [00:03:19] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:03:19] Rebecca Jones: Can you believe it? [00:03:20] Vince Menzione: We were newbies when I was working with you. [00:03:22] Rebecca Jones: We, we were newbies and uh, the company was really founded on the principle of how do you connect strategy to execution. [00:03:32] Rebecca Jones: And within that, our first customer was Microsoft. [00:03:36] Vince Menzione: Interesting. [00:03:37] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and that was an incredible spot to be and an incredible time to be in a company that started to evolve and grow with one of the titans in the industry. And obviously a incredible market leader in the tech industry. [00:03:56] Vince Menzione: Well, and that time 20 years ago, ’cause I was, I was along for that journey. [00:03:59] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:04:00] Vince Menzione: Uh, it was a time of tumultuous change at Microsoft. [00:04:03] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:04:04] Vince Menzione: Uh, in fact, we were talking about the, uh, entrepreneur’s dilemma earlier, uh, today, and Microsoft was going through that period where, you know, we, everyone loves Steve Bomber, but there was a time within the organization that it was stuck. [00:04:18] Rebecca Jones: Mm-hmm. [00:04:19] Vince Menzione: And it had to transform as an organization. [00:04:22] Rebecca Jones: A hundred percent. And so when you think about companies like Microsoft, it’s not only what they do, but how they bring that to market. Yep. And uh, so when you think about where Bridge Partners started and having the privilege to be in Microsoft of all places to, um, cut your teeth on you look at where we started and where we’ve grown from there. [00:04:44] Rebecca Jones: Uh, within the tech industry, we’ve worked across, um, multiple hyperscalers. We’ve worked across, uh. Really the top tier tech and telco, those top 100. Yep. And all the household names. And then throughout that, across the partner ecosystem, because you and I both know these companies grow and scale their businesses through the partner ecosystem, and so we’ve been privileged to work across. [00:05:08] Rebecca Jones: Multiple depth and breadth partners in that play. [00:05:12] Vince Menzione: And as an agency, are you more known for project management go to market? Uh, what, what are the areas and focus where the outcomes that you achieve? [00:05:21] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, so we’re known for. Being on the growth side of the house. And how I define that is you find us in marketing, but that center of gravity is in product marketing. [00:05:32] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:05:32] Rebecca Jones: And then how you scale that through partner ecosystems and then supporting that field or that sales organization. So when you think about those three pillars within the organization, that’s where you’ll find us. [00:05:43] Vince Menzione: And why would I choose Bridge Partners? [00:05:46] Rebecca Jones: Oh, well, um, based on experience. Um, and then when you think about Bridge Partners, it’s not, um, just what we do, but when you take a look at our engagements and background, we’re over 90% referral. [00:06:01] Vince Menzione: Wow. [00:06:02] Rebecca Jones: And so people take us with them and um, what I look at is have we actually moved the needle or driven the customer outcomes? And when you think about the customers that we’ve worked with and the companies in this industry. It’s quite a roster and I don’t take that lightly because if you’re going to help support these companies and help them grow, it’s a testament to how we were able to accomplish that. [00:06:27] Rebecca Jones: Because all these companies have complex enterprise organizations. Their go to market is nuanced and how they want to, and then, um, get and grow. And so these are just a couple of the different ways that we’ve been able to be successful. [00:06:42] Vince Menzione: Fantastic. You know, you’ve done workshops at our events and talked to our community about how to help them achieve their greatest results. [00:06:50] Vince Menzione: What would you say to them? Now we’re living in this time? I, I I, I said this earlier, I don’t want to use the term tectonic shifts, but I’m running out of words to describe how tumultuous this time feels right now to me. [00:07:03] Rebecca Jones: It’s interesting you say that. I was thinking about that. ’cause both you and I have been in the industry for a bit. [00:07:08] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. And, um, there’s some pattern recognition happening right now for me and how I look at the go to market and these, these points in time and the evolution and. This point in time, it is a tectonic shift. But a lot of companies have other, have had to go through these challenges before. If you think about, um, the migration to the cloud and [00:07:33] Vince Menzione: yes, [00:07:33] Rebecca Jones: all of the unlocks that it has, and at the end of the day it’s, it’s shifting and thinking about new business models and it’s shifting and thinking about go to market, but there is. [00:07:43] Rebecca Jones: There are things that ring true no matter where you are. And one of the things I’ve always taken a look at is, do you know your underlying value and relevance in market? And are you being customer centric? That never goes outta style, right? Do [00:07:58] Vince Menzione: you know your value and are you customer centric? That makes a lot of sense, right? [00:08:02] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And do they, what do you do? And, and do they, how do what, how do they answer to that question? [00:08:07] Rebecca Jones: Well, that’s a, that’s a thinking question. Yes. Right? Yes. It takes a minute to think about that. Um, where is your moment of relevance with a customer? [00:08:16] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:08:17] Rebecca Jones: Where is your moment of relevance with a customer? [00:08:19] Rebecca Jones: And when you think about your reason to exist as a business, you have a really defined ICP, an ideal customer profile, and where’s your moment of relevance and. Yes. There’s a lot happening right now, and I think also because of where we sit in the industry and being in the midst of all of these giants with incredible technology to bring to market. [00:08:44] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. We’re, we’re in the front end of this wave or the, the, the tectonic shift that you’re talking about. It’s just, you know, it’s unsettling to a certain degree, but it’s really energetic and it’s. Dynamic and, and there’s so much opportunity out there. So [00:08:59] Vince Menzione: much so, you know, you had me thinking about the $600 billion that’ll be invested this year and just in cloud infrastructure and chips, right? [00:09:08] Vince Menzione: Yeah. So data centers and chips, and talk about that being like kind of creating this wave, this huge tsunami that’s coming for the beaches and, and everything seems to be. Every week there’s a new announcement, and recently it’s been philanthropic and clawed. And yes, uh, the markets are reacting. They’re, um. [00:09:30] Vince Menzione: They’re almost, uh, imploding in some ca in some cases because they’re trying to react the financial analysts, they’re trying to react to what’s happening right now. [00:09:38] Rebecca Jones: It, the investment is massive and it’s, it’s incredible and it’s massive. And over the last year, you saw a lot of experimentation. Yeah. And you saw a lot of dabbling, a lot of, you know, quite. [00:09:52] Rebecca Jones: Frankly, a little bit of concern about is this gonna pay off? [00:09:56] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:09:57] Rebecca Jones: And when you look at where we are in this chain cycle and this adoption cycle, we’re right at the front end, the early adopters. And so a lot of the work that we’re doing, and where I’m focused on is how do you move from experimentation? To truly having some movement over into MVP and scale. [00:10:18] Rebecca Jones: And so I’ll just harken back to Yeah, [00:10:19] Vince Menzione: please. [00:10:20] Rebecca Jones: That product mindset of when you’re looking at opportunity within the business, there was a lot of, um, there was a lot of pockets of experimentation just for fun. Just for fun. And so when you look across the business, um, and what, what we observed was, um, businesses of all different sizes, experimenting and, and some were just, they’re fun, they’re dabbling, right? [00:10:45] Rebecca Jones: But it, it changed in the second half of last year, people became much more thoughtful, much more purposeful, um, thinking forward about how would this be applied to my business? Yeah, because the question now isn’t. Could we do this? It’s really, should we do this [00:11:03] Vince Menzione: right? And and there was a period of time, I don’t mean to interrupt you, but there was a period of time when we were talking about earlier in in last year, we were talking about halluc hallucinations still. [00:11:13] Vince Menzione: Yes. So there was a lack of confidence on the platform side. Yes. Microsoft had brought out. Uh, it’s copilot solutions early to market. And there was some, uh, pushback from the community saying, we’re not seeing the results of that. Yeah. From the financial community specifically. And then I think what you said is then the second half of the year things started to change. [00:11:35] Vince Menzione: There was greater confidence. The [00:11:36] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, [00:11:37] Vince Menzione: I’d say the models got better. [00:11:38] Rebecca Jones: The models got better. But when you think about innovation, that’s inherent risk, [00:11:43] Vince Menzione: right? [00:11:43] Rebecca Jones: Right. Yes. When, when you’re on an innovation curve, yes, that’s risk. And so you have to look at as any great CFO will tell you diversification innovation. [00:11:56] Rebecca Jones: When you start to look at that market landscape, you’re creating risks. Yes. So they’re investing a lot and they wanna know when the payoff is coming back into the business. Right? Or back into the market. [00:12:08] Vince Menzione: So Rebecca, where is the AI market right now? [00:12:13] Rebecca Jones: Oh, that is a tough and great question, Vince. [00:12:18] Vince Menzione: I mean, we’ve gone through it and I’ll, I’ll kind of frame this for, yes, for, for everyone, at least from my perspective of what’s happened, right? [00:12:24] Vince Menzione: So, uh, September, 2022. Chat, GBT. Yeah. So we get into chat bots or chat bot, chat bot, chat bot, chat bot the first year or so, beginning of last year, 2025. A agentic AI really starts to take hold. It’s, it becomes a new term. In fact, I don’t think we were even using the term agentic AI before the end of 24, beginning of 25. [00:12:47] Vince Menzione: And then agents have really proliferated, um, all of the marketplaces now have agents and people are developing their own agents and so on. And all the tools, like all, all the cloud tools have agent capabilities. And now, um. We’re in 2026 and we’re still in the first quarter. It feels like the agents are starting to rule the world and maybe taking over the world [00:13:10] Rebecca Jones: they might be. [00:13:11] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:13:11] Rebecca Jones: right. There is definitely a proliferation of agents and I’m anticipating a lot of consolidation of that. ’cause most of the agents I’ve seen drop into, um. A lot of the areas where you and I can download are features. [00:13:26] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:13:26] Rebecca Jones: They’re really feature agents and those will get consolidated ’cause the where we are and you ask where we are in the market. [00:13:33] Rebecca Jones: What I love. I love where we are ’cause we’re starting to tackle real business problems. And what I’m observing and what we’re working on is really helping connect back into the business to really start that transformational work. [00:13:48] Vince Menzione: So take us through that. I’d love that. I’d love, give us a scenario or [00:13:51] Rebecca Jones: give us a use case. [00:13:52] Rebecca Jones: Do this. Yeah. I think’s really great scenarios here that I can walk you through. And first and foremost it is, and I’m gonna go back and I talked about specialization in specialty areas. Yes. That’s really important. Um, we talked yesterday during the conference around, um, industry. What industry are you in? [00:14:11] Rebecca Jones: You know, I’m in tech and that’s, that’s, we know that industry, we know those business models really well. That’s extremely important. And then you move within that. And what functions do you know and functions in this, you know, order are the product marketing function, how does that work? [00:14:30] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:14:30] Rebecca Jones: How does that work in an enterprise organization or a sales function or a. [00:14:36] Rebecca Jones: Partner function. And within that, what are all the workflows? How do these teams operate together? And so that’s where that curiosity comes in of not just how you did the work. How is the work orchestrated? [00:14:49] Vince Menzione: Inter orchestration is a huge topic area. [00:14:51] Rebecca Jones: Orchestration is a huge topic. Let’s, let’s go [00:14:53] Vince Menzione: there. [00:14:54] Rebecca Jones: E Exactly. [00:14:55] Rebecca Jones: And that’s where that curiosity, you know, I was talking about pattern recognition comes in how is the work designed? And that becomes. The blueprint for how you start to think about agentic workflows. And if you don’t have a great workflow, you don’t wanna replicate that in an agent, but Exactly. You definitely need to understand that. [00:15:18] Rebecca Jones: And so why don’t I take something that, um, I think will resonate for anyone listening to this podcast, because everyone is probably looking for growth this year and wanting to accelerate [00:15:28] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:15:29] Rebecca Jones: Sales. Their pre-sales funnel. So if we just take that pre-sales motion and specifically now with where partners might play in that or where, um, technology companies might want to enable their partners better. [00:15:47] Rebecca Jones: When I start to break down a pre-sales function, you have areas within that. Whole workflow that your marketing department might be driving. They might be driving top of the funnel or or demand programs. And then as you move down the funnel, let’s call it mid funnel, that really has opportunities for partner and field sellers to come in and. [00:16:07] Rebecca Jones: You might be seen or observing that your, um, pipeline velocity is not where you want that, right? Mm-hmm. You might be, you know, as they say, stuck. Stuck. [00:16:18] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:16:19] Rebecca Jones: And so when you start to look at what agents could do within that, I’ll use a real use case, um, around pre-sales workshops. You and I are both familiar with that. [00:16:28] Vince Menzione: We, we are, we were just talking about this last night, in fact, at dinner, about pre pre-sales workshops and how this is still such a vital component, how organizations work together. [00:16:37] Rebecca Jones: Such a vital component, um, for multiple reasons, right? You get to engage directly with the customer. You get to spend time with that customer. [00:16:46] Rebecca Jones: You get to ensure you understand what are their most pressing use cases and really help them design and buy into a solution far before you get to a proposal. And quite frankly, if you do this right. You also have an adoption plan, and then think about it from other functional areas in the organization. [00:17:02] Rebecca Jones: You start to pattern match across those presale workshops. You can start to see the use cases that are most valuable in market and start to put that into your messaging. So you think about presale workshop, it’s just not the activity of having a workshop, but if you could build an agent. To really help design around partners, enabling partners to deliver better presale workshops. [00:17:27] Rebecca Jones: Interesting. And how are you ingesting information that goes into the workshop? How are you helping, um, develop materials and first drafts faster for proposals post? How are you. Data is informing this. What are you collecting and what are you providing, and then what are you delivering? If you take that one simple component in a pre-sales process, you can see where I’m going. [00:17:53] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. All of a sudden, an ecosystem starts to show up around how could you connect better back with product marketing? What are they doing? What could you inform them with, with the data that you’re bringing in? [00:18:03] Vince Menzione: Interesting. [00:18:03] Rebecca Jones: And then what are the. Deterministic pathways outside of that, that you could be informing downstream down to first, first stress faster on proposals. [00:18:13] Rebecca Jones: Are you helping those partners with an adoption plan? The service partners in there. And so that is the designer and the architect of understanding how that workflow comes to life. And then you can really start to think about the outcomes that you wanna drive. And that’s where I love to start the conversations. [00:18:31] Rebecca Jones: That shouldn’t be an afterthought. That should be where you start. [00:18:35] Vince Menzione: So how do you, how do you, how do you start with this? You gave me a great example, but how do you apply this in the business? Like what do you take when you meet with a client to talk about pre-sales workshops as an example? [00:18:47] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:18:47] Vince Menzione: You take a proforma of what a pre-sales workshop would look like. [00:18:51] Vince Menzione: I’m, I’m, I. I might be wrong on this, but you have, like, you, you now have, uh, AI or AI that they go out and pull the data that you would normally ask maybe in some, some, uh, process, uh, information flow process that we grab and, and pull this into the, to the, to the form. The [00:19:10] Rebecca Jones: first question I always ask is, why. [00:19:12] Rebecca Jones: Why is this so important and valuable? I might have an assumption why, based on my experience, but I want the facts, right? I wanna know how they’re measuring it today, so we have a baseline and I wanna understand what their goals are. [00:19:28] Vince Menzione: Okay? [00:19:29] Rebecca Jones: Are they looking to increase revenue? X percentage. Uh, how many deals are they anticipating? [00:19:38] Rebecca Jones: How many presale workshops do they typically deliver through partner a year? Are they looking to scale that? Probably, yes. Are they looking to increase the value that they’re getting into contract post presale workshop? Probably yes. But I want that empirical data. And then I also wanna know where are they storing that? [00:19:57] Rebecca Jones: Where are they sourcing that? And so it, it really. The question and the question set really is understanding the business outcomes and the why. I, I ask a lot of why, and it really helps you frame in what would be the best outcome or the best solution, and then where do you start? Because there’s a lot of appetite for a. [00:20:21] Rebecca Jones: A transformational workflow from A to Z. And that’s a hard place to, [00:20:26] Vince Menzione: it’s hard show momentum. It’s hard. It’s hard, [00:20:27] Rebecca Jones: right? [00:20:27] Vince Menzione: It’s, it’s hard to document your current workflow flows. [00:20:30] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:20:30] Vince Menzione: Let alone come back and do this ally. [00:20:33] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:20:34] Vince Menzione: And create the best outcomes. [00:20:36] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:20:36] Vince Menzione: So I go back to this and I go, well, what, what creates the best outcomes? [00:20:39] Vince Menzione: Where the customer signs at the dotted line, and then how do you work back from that to the pre-sales workshop? Is that how [00:20:46] Rebecca Jones: you do it? A hundred percent. It’s a hundred percent. And then where do you start? How do you show, um, progress, not perfection. And so in this world, there’s a lot of, um, pressure. To show progress, outcomes, momentum. [00:21:00] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. And these very significant investments that are being made. And so how do you get them to quick wins? And so you know this, for any new executive coming into role, what are your quick wins? Yes. Right? Yes. You need to transform an organization, you need to transform a function. How do you set them up for success? [00:21:19] Rebecca Jones: And that’s always in my mind, that’s always in the mind of. The bridge partners, leaders of how do you set this leader up for success? And it’s that point between strategy and execution. How do you help them show quick wins? And so I broke you down that process. Yep. Of how would you think about in that use case, how to bring that back and help them show quick wins? [00:21:42] Rebecca Jones: Not in six months or a year, but in six weeks to eight weeks. How do you, how do you get them on that journey and then help them build to that next slide. And [00:21:51] Vince Menzione: in fact, that’s how you, you, you’ve made your, your name or your fame in the industry is really coming in and helping some of these executives, especially when they’re newer in role. [00:22:00] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:22:00] Vince Menzione: And those of us who’ve been around the Microsoft ecosystem know this well. Like you get asked day one, what’s your plan? The, while the fire, while the fire hose is blowing in your face at a hundred, a hundred miles an hour? Uh, what’s your plan? [00:22:14] Rebecca Jones: What’s your plan? What’s your [00:22:14] Vince Menzione: plan? [00:22:15] Rebecca Jones: What is your plan? [00:22:16] Vince Menzione: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:16] Vince Menzione: And then you have to show some measurable results fairly quickly. [00:22:19] Rebecca Jones: You have to [00:22:20] Vince Menzione: because you’re asked to get up in front of everyone. Yeah. Very soon. [00:22:23] Rebecca Jones: And that’s a blueprint that we have. We have, it’s a quick win. And when you think about all of these organizations that we’ve worked with, um, speed to market is a value signal. [00:22:36] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:22:36] Rebecca Jones: Right? And that speed and quality. Where are you willing to take the risk? Where are you willing to fail fast? And what outcomes are non-negotiable and what are, and so when you look at that, there’s, there’s conversations that need to be had on. And being able to filter out the noise to get down to what’s really gonna move the needle, um, for our clients and for the executives that we work with. [00:23:06] Rebecca Jones: So they can show momentum and progress quickly. And then we talked a lot about it. We don’t do three year plans, right? We’re gonna help you show progress in months, [00:23:16] Vince Menzione: nice. [00:23:17] Rebecca Jones: And in quarters, right? It’s not, um, 10 years. [00:23:19] Vince Menzione: Can anybody even have a three year plan anymore? [00:23:22] Rebecca Jones: Who’s got one? [00:23:23] Vince Menzione: I’d love to spend some time on co-selling with you. [00:23:25] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Just because I know this was a topic that came up one of our workshops in the Yeah. We hosted, yes. Last year we hosted a session. With another partner. Bridge Partners. [00:23:34] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:23:35] Vince Menzione: And you talked about the power of three and I know you’ve published some information about the power of three. I thought maybe we’d talk about that. [00:23:41] Vince Menzione: ’cause I think that is fascinating and it seems very relevant even in yesterday’s conversation. Uh, there was a conversation about another partner, uh, that is looking to build an ecosystem that hasn’t really thought about building out an ecosystem before, as an example. And this, this, I think is some of the work that you do really applies against this. [00:24:01] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. This, I mean, it, it’s a hot topic, right? Yeah. Power of three, which fits under the umbrella of co-sell Yes. And co-selling. And everyone has a slightly different definition, so I’ll define where we play. Good in there. Um, and then I’ll talk to you about the power of three, um, because that’s one of. Um, I’ll call it the scenarios under co-selling. [00:24:23] Rebecca Jones: Yes. And it’s a very popular one. It [00:24:24] Vince Menzione: is pop Well, it is for v various reasons too because, and I’ll just set the context for this. We were used to co-selling being a technology organization and a and a hyperscaler, like a Microsoft. [00:24:37] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:24:37] Vince Menzione: Going to do something together and driving direct output or sales. Now we have finally seen where marketplaces, which has become the co-sell engine, have now enabled the channel. [00:24:49] Vince Menzione: Um, the reseller enabled, uh, offers now to now, uh, operate on behalf of, and so at least in that case, that’s three right there. Now, there might be more than just three. We talk about the seven seats of the table, but the power of three is palpable right now. [00:25:04] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. Let me tell you about that concept of the power of three. [00:25:07] Rebecca Jones: ’cause when you think about the classic one [00:25:10] Vince Menzione: yeah, [00:25:10] Rebecca Jones: it’s a hyperscaler. [00:25:11] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:25:12] Rebecca Jones: A GSI. And then an ISB. [00:25:15] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:25:15] Rebecca Jones: Right? [00:25:16] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:25:16] Rebecca Jones: I mean that’s the, that’s the power, the powerful power, the three three, [00:25:19] Vince Menzione: the three giants in the [00:25:20] Rebecca Jones: room. The three giants. Yeah. And that’s rarefied air. [00:25:24] Vince Menzione: It is [00:25:25] Rebecca Jones: very [00:25:26] Vince Menzione: verified air. It’s, [00:25:26] Rebecca Jones: yeah. Right. And, uh, we do, we have a published article on that, um, and running a power three with SAP, uh, and it is, um, it changes the dynamics. [00:25:41] Rebecca Jones: Of how companies are gonna scale and grow in this market, right? [00:25:46] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:25:46] Rebecca Jones: Because we know, um, that what got you to this point? Is likely not gonna get you to that next stage of growth. And all the conversations around the platform play is the partner ecosystem, right? And I look at the opportunity, not just with the power through, I’m gonna talk to you a little bit more about that story and what we’re doing there and how we’re looking at that. [00:26:12] Rebecca Jones: Um, but it is the ultimate. Design for your go to market. Yeah. When you think about how partners and the various types of partners can help you scale, but you need to know what you need. You absolutely need to know, [00:26:29] Vince Menzione: yeah. [00:26:30] Rebecca Jones: What are you trying to achieve in your go to market and what’s missing? [00:26:34] Vince Menzione: What are the gaps? [00:26:34] Vince Menzione: Gaps? [00:26:35] Rebecca Jones: What are the gaps? Are the gaps before you apply? Yes. The power of three, or I’ll talk to you about a couple other use cases within that. So the power of three. Has long been on everybody’s, you know, can, can we get this done right? Can you pattern match the customer set? I’ll often refer to it as a BM on steroids, account-based marketing and on steroids. [00:26:59] Rebecca Jones: Can you pattern match, um, the, the hyperscaler, let’s just use Microsoft in this scenario, the, the. High potential customers of Microsoft Joint with SAP joint, with A GSI. And the more specialized and specific you get in there, it’s not just any, because think about the size of these, you know, companies. Yeah, right. [00:27:24] Rebecca Jones: Then you start to look at, well, let’s get a little bit more specific on these product sets, these industries, these use cases. And then you start to refine that where you can start to identify your greatest opportunity for growth. So that’s the first stage of that. And it is, you know, we, we think about where is that overlap and where is that opportunity, but how do you activate that? [00:27:51] Vince Menzione: And it’s complex because, uh, as you, as you mentioned those three. Organizations, each of them have different go to markets. [00:27:59] Rebecca Jones: They do, [00:27:59] Vince Menzione: they have different, a different mapping of their geographies and their ideal customer profiles. [00:28:05] Rebecca Jones: Mm-hmm. [00:28:06] Vince Menzione: Um, and they, yeah, and they apply different tactics and selling tactics and channel tactics and so on that you have to layer in or you have to take into account when you build this. [00:28:15] Vince Menzione: And SAP’s a very different go-to market motion than a Microsoft, than a, than a, an EY or any name the GSI percent. Yeah. [00:28:23] Rebecca Jones: And so that is why not only is it, um, complex from a. Sharing and figuring out what data you’re going to share. Yeah. But how do you activate it? How [00:28:35] Vince Menzione: do you activate it? [00:28:36] Rebecca Jones: And uh, and that is what all companies are striving to do. [00:28:41] Rebecca Jones: Who are you gonna go to market with? Yeah. What is your best play in the industry? And so I, you know, while this one. There’s very few companies that are gonna be able to activate directly with the hyperscaler, right? Yes. Uh, Microsoft AWS or Google. Um, but there are ways in which you can apply this strategy no matter the size of your organization. [00:29:05] Rebecca Jones: And so when you think about. The power of three. It could be any combination. You are the designer, you are the decider of who is in your power of three. And when you start to kind of unpack that a little bit, it could be Microsoft, SAPN one ISV, or it could be a combination of complementary I ISVs that unlock a play. [00:29:28] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. [00:29:29] Rebecca Jones: Like migration to the cloud. [00:29:31] Vince Menzione: Right. [00:29:31] Rebecca Jones: Like it, it could be [00:29:33] Vince Menzione: backup and recovery. I could rattle off the different types of solutions. Yeah. [00:29:37] Rebecca Jones: What is, where are you seeing the greatest opportunity to scale and what ISVs could come in to help you do that? So when you extract that from the power of three, the classic power of three of Costone, you brought that down to, you know, how do you think about that in the masses of marketplace? [00:29:56] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. Or partners of any size. I like to bring this back to. Where do you believe your greatest opportunity is? Do you have, um, opportunity or weakness in your portfolio, your product set? Could a partner come in and help augment that? Do you have a tech platform and you need a services arm to help extend that? [00:30:19] Rebecca Jones: I I mean the, it it, the world’s your oyster. Yeah. You get to kit this together any way you need and then. The power of bringing these companies together. And you and I both know, and that was much of the conversation yesterday, is, um, the greater goodness of companies coming together Yes. To compliment one another to solve a customer problem. [00:30:39] Vince Menzione: How do you take it from concept to execution? Because to me, that’s. Especially when you’re talking about not just one organization like a micro, you’re working with a Microsoft or an SAP, but you’re layering in three types of organizations and you’re going across different sales motions. How do you get them all? [00:30:58] Vince Menzione: How do you get them all aligned in working together the right way? [00:31:02] Rebecca Jones: Magic. Magic. [00:31:03] Vince Menzione: Okay. [00:31:04] Rebecca Jones: I’m kidding. [00:31:04] Vince Menzione: Call bridge, call Rebecca [00:31:07] Rebecca Jones: Magic. [00:31:07] Vince Menzione: Nine nine nine five five five five. [00:31:09] Rebecca Jones: Let, let, let me, uh, let me talk about that because [00:31:13] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:31:13] Rebecca Jones: it’s one, there’s the good work, there’s the good thought work and the strategy of how to ensure you’re, you’re pointing and you’ve got the team lined up, right? [00:31:22] Rebecca Jones: Right. And the players lined up. But activation of that. Oh, [00:31:28] Vince Menzione: massive work. [00:31:29] Rebecca Jones: It’s massive work. Yeah. And it’s not a set it and forget it. [00:31:33] Vince Menzione: Right, [00:31:34] Rebecca Jones: right, [00:31:34] Vince Menzione: right. [00:31:35] Rebecca Jones: And when you think about the alignment, and you talked about we, we’ve got different fiscal year ends and we’ve got different sales and center plans. I will talk about a few things. [00:31:45] Rebecca Jones: One, executive sponsorship, top down. [00:31:48] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:31:48] Rebecca Jones: Right. Um, ensuring, you know, compensation. You gotta get rid of the blockers and the barriers. [00:31:55] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:31:56] Rebecca Jones: And you have to make it easy and you have to create that space because it’s really, and I’ll talk to you about some of the platforms and technology behind it, but it’s humans working together. [00:32:07] Rebecca Jones: There’s a lot of power in what we’re able to do now with, um, part tech platforms and with agentic solutions. And how do you automate this and how do you bring more power and visibility? Better than ever and, and more than ever. But at the end of the day, we’re activating teams. Across companies. Yep. To work together to bring this together. [00:32:34] Rebecca Jones: And there are playbooks, um, and any, there’s great playbooks out there, but you need to activate that. [00:32:41] Vince Menzione: You need to activate it. And you, you said you gotta get the executive commitment at the top? [00:32:45] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:32:46] Vince Menzione: Not just at the CEO level, but across the leadership team. That’s right. In every silo. Uh, you’ve gotta get, uh, the organization, you have to get compensation taken care of because those, those can be blockers, those could be real blockers from getting the results you want to get. [00:33:00] Vince Menzione: And then you gotta get activation. [00:33:03] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:33:03] Vince Menzione: Right? [00:33:04] Rebecca Jones: You gotta get activation and you have to be really clear on how you’re gonna activate what’s gonna move the needle. And you have to be ready to test, learn, optimize, and you need to put those into sprints. So I’ll give some examples around that. [00:33:20] Vince Menzione: Please do take us through the sprints. [00:33:21] Vince Menzione: ’cause this is, this is getting beyond the theory now. This is what I really wanted to capture with you. Take us through it. [00:33:28] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:33:28] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:33:29] Rebecca Jones: So let’s just say we’ve got, we’ve got a power of three. [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:33:32] Rebecca Jones: You know, um, ready to roll and, and we’ve picked our industry and we have our use case. Um, between the three of us, the three players, you’re gonna start by allowing someone, and in this case it’s been Bridge Partners to really ensure we have a joint value prop, um, proposition for that end customer. [00:33:54] Rebecca Jones: Mm-hmm. And, you know, you gotta take a little ego out of the room. Typically on the power of three, you’ve got the leading companies coming in. But at the end of the day, if you’ve done this right, it’s, it’s customer first. It’s what’s gonna help solve this customer pain point in that language. And then when you think about activation, it’s who’s, who’s in role first? [00:34:20] Rebecca Jones: Right. And who’s taking point in these customer conversations. Right. Okay. And that is really, really, that’s important. Important. That is important. Who has the relationship? Yeah. Who is going to take lead and who’s gonna follow? And it gets all the way down to whose paper. Is this on? And that’s, that’s sometimes hard. [00:34:41] Rebecca Jones: You’ve got three players in the room, but it’s incredibly important to have those conversations and ensure that this is really end state for the customer. Yeah. So really going through roles and responsibilities and how are we gonna architect this for the customer’s success. Yeah. So that is a critical component of the playbook and then understanding. [00:35:02] Rebecca Jones: Where and what programs are we gonna drive, and then who’s taking what actions. And so I, I mentioned a BM on steroids a little before. Yes. There’s amazing things that you can be doing in market, [00:35:14] Vince Menzione: account-based marketing, [00:35:15] Rebecca Jones: m account-based based marketing, you dunno. Um, account-based marketing and there are some amazing things. [00:35:20] Rebecca Jones: Really truly connected sales and marketing, in this case. Connected sales, marketing and partner. Yeah. And how do you activate these partners together? [00:35:27] Vince Menzione: You used the term part tech, which. Not everyone understands partner technologies. Yes. Organizations like Partner Tap, work Span. Yeah. Tackle. [00:35:37] Rebecca Jones: Structured. Yeah. [00:35:38] Vince Menzione: Structured. If you, these are companies that help with co-selling methodologies, marketplace methodologies. [00:35:44] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:35:45] Vince Menzione: Or combining all of those, [00:35:46] Rebecca Jones: if you know, uh, J McBain, uh. Beautiful visual flat map of, um, it looks a little, the 28 moments. Yes. I was just, well, the 28 moments and he’s got the part tech landscape. [00:35:59] Vince Menzione: Oh, [00:35:59] Rebecca Jones: the islands. The islands. [00:36:00] Vince Menzione: Yes. The islands. [00:36:00] Rebecca Jones: Yes, we got it. But there are part tech solutions that support [00:36:03] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:36:03] Rebecca Jones: Partner programs, co-sell programs, partner marketing, you know. Yes. And really help to automate a lot of those processes. [00:36:11] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:36:12] Rebecca Jones: Um, and a lot of those programs. [00:36:13] Vince Menzione: So Rebecca is such a great conversation today. [00:36:16] Vince Menzione: I mean, we can go. Thank you so deep on this. [00:36:18] Rebecca Jones: I know. [00:36:18] Vince Menzione: Which means that we’re all gonna have to be back together in Redmond. You live in the Seattle area? I do. And you’ll be with us. Um, we’ll be hosting the Ultimate Partner, live in, uh, may, May 11th to the 13th. If you’re marking your calendar as listeners and friends, uh, and you’ll be there and. [00:36:36] Vince Menzione: Probably driving some more of this conversation in a workshop format, I hope. [00:36:41] Rebecca Jones: I hope so too. Yeah, it was really rewarding last year. I mean, there’s nothing more powerful to be in the room with partners because the partners are frontline to customers. [00:36:51] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:36:51] Rebecca Jones: And understanding what they’re seeing and hearing. [00:36:53] Rebecca Jones: And I always think voice of the customer is your ultimate signal. Yeah. So I can’t wait to be there. [00:36:58] Vince Menzione: Very cool. And I have a favorite question I ask all of my guests now. Uh, it is a favorite of mine. You are hosting a dinner party and you can choose where in the world you wanna host this dinner party, and you can invite only three guests, though from the present or the past to this amazing dinner party. [00:37:18] Vince Menzione: Whom would you invite Rebecca and why? And why? [00:37:22] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. Yeah. I’d, um, this is such a great question. I think on every single day I’d have a different collection of folks that I’d want at my home. Uh, I’ve had dinner at some amazing places for me. I would love to host this at my home. [00:37:38] Vince Menzione: Very cool, very [00:37:39] Rebecca Jones: cool. Uh, and the people that I would want there for this particular dinner party, I’m gonna pick, um, three iconic women. [00:37:51] Rebecca Jones: Coco Chanel, [00:37:52] Vince Menzione: Coco Chanel very cool [00:37:54] Rebecca Jones: designer. [00:37:55] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:37:56] Rebecca Jones: Um, really changed how women thought about an identity and wardrobe. Um, I would invite Georgia O’Keefe. Wow. She’s my favorite artist. [00:38:07] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:38:08] Rebecca Jones: Um, she is one of my favorite artists. Uh, I’m, uh, art and history background. And, uh, [00:38:16] Vince Menzione: that explains, [00:38:17] Rebecca Jones: that, explains that, um, a really interesting perspective. [00:38:22] Rebecca Jones: I love her view on landscapes and. She, [00:38:26] Vince Menzione: that’s why I know her as, you know, landscapes [00:38:28] Rebecca Jones: a landscape artist, um, and much more behind that. And then I would bring one of my favorite authors in, who’s Tony Morrison? [00:38:36] Vince Menzione: Tony [00:38:37] Rebecca Jones: Morrison. [00:38:38] Vince Menzione: I don’t know Tony Morrison. [00:38:39] Rebecca Jones: Oh, um, I would, beloved is her book and Oh, yes. When you think about. [00:38:45] Rebecca Jones: Um, and this is really my passion, my background in art and literature and design, and to have three, three women there, that voice of Tony Morrison, you’ve put that book on your list. Okay. It, it, it changed my life. Uh, and, um, Coco Chanel and, um, Giorgio O’Keefe, I think it would be a really interesting conversation. [00:39:07] Rebecca Jones: I love very cool trailblazers, women who really helped. I don’t know how much they recognize how much they really changed the narrative for other women, um, in their fields and together. But I think it’d be a really fun evening. [00:39:23] Vince Menzione: Very different. Very different. Uh, I was, I know a little bit about Cocoa Chanel ’cause my mom was always in the beauty and fashion industry. [00:39:31] Vince Menzione: So as a kid growing up, I mean her shoe was iconic. [00:39:34] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:39:34] Vince Menzione: Iconic. Chanels an iconic brand was iconic. And, and she was a, wasn’t she a survivor of the. Of, uh, Nazi Germany maybe or something. There’s some, there’s some background or there’s [00:39:44] Rebecca Jones: some background. Flee. Flee [00:39:45] Vince Menzione: Nazi Germany [00:39:46] Rebecca Jones: or something. And what she’s really known for is, um, well many things, but yes, as a designer, really changing the tone and temperature Yes. [00:39:56] Rebecca Jones: Of um. How, you know, fashion and female identity. I think she, um, created the, what everybody knows is the little black dress and really got all that more structured and more modern look and feel of how to, how to wear and just really created a powerful path. [00:40:14] Vince Menzione: Very cool. Yeah. Very cool. [00:40:15] Rebecca Jones: So that’s who I’d have it, this one. [00:40:16] Vince Menzione: That will be a funer. [00:40:17] Rebecca Jones: Next time I’m on your podcast, I’d have a whole new crew. [00:40:21] Vince Menzione: Okay. Well I might. Bring dessert. If you don’t mind, I might bring a little, maybe a little chocolates I think maybe might be very appropriate would for this group and just maybe pop in for a few minutes. [00:40:29] Rebecca Jones: That would be great. [00:40:30] Vince Menzione: Because I don’t wanna inter interrupt the flow my, because this is be a great conversation. Oh my, [00:40:33] no, [00:40:33] Rebecca Jones: you would, I think you’d have a ball. [00:40:34] Vince Menzione: Okay. I, [00:40:35] Rebecca Jones: I mean, I know how close you were to your mother. [00:40:37] Vince Menzione: I am. [00:40:37] Rebecca Jones: And so, yeah. [00:40:39] Vince Menzione: So, um, this isn’t, again, I use this tumultuous term, but we are living in interesting times right now. [00:40:47] Rebecca Jones: We are. [00:40:47] Vince Menzione: And for all of our viewers and listeners. What is your advice to them? What is the one thing you would say? We’re in the first quarter of 2026. Yeah. This ball is moving fast or this puck is moving fast. Yeah. If you were a hockey player, um, what would you say to us now? What, what, what is the one thing you would go do if you’re not doing it now that you should be doing? [00:41:11] Rebecca Jones: Take a moment. Take a moment. As leaders. Your company and your organizations are looking for clarity. They’re looking for a path forward, and there’s a lot of energy out there, which is very exciting, but it can be also very distracting. [00:41:30] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:41:31] Rebecca Jones: So hold some confidence and clarity for your organization and figure out where you need to be and where you’re going. [00:41:39] Rebecca Jones: That’ll help set your strategy, and this will all come into view. And so what I look to is how do we help enable the organization to grow? And by doing that, you ha you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself. Yeah. Take a moment. [00:41:53] Vince Menzione: Pause. [00:41:55] Rebecca Jones: Pause. Reflect, reflect. I told you I walked down to the beach this morning. [00:41:59] Rebecca Jones: It’s a great moment. Take a moment for yourself. It’s not passing you by. We’re just getting started. [00:42:06] Vince Menzione: Did you hear that? My friends and listeners? Take a moment. And so great to have you here in the room. Yeah. [00:42:13] Rebecca Jones: Thank you so [00:42:14] Vince Menzione: much. Thank you. And I want to thank our listeners, our viewers, for following along, ultimate Guide to Partnering and our YouTube channel Ultimate Partner. [00:42:23] Vince Menzione: And please, please, please come join us. We have an incredible year ahead. This was our event, number one of five. And Ultimate partner Live will be in Bellevue on the 11th through the 13th of May. [00:42:36] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, I’ll [00:42:36] Vince Menzione: see. You’ll see you there. Rebecca will be there. It’s [00:42:38] Rebecca Jones: in my backyard. [00:42:39] Vince Menzione: It’s in your backyard. And we are gonna have incredible leaders in the room. [00:42:42] Vince Menzione: So thank you for watching. Thank you for listening to The Ultimate Guide to Partnering. [00:42:47] Rebecca Jones: Don’t forget, ultimate Partner Live is coming [00:42:50] Vince Menzione: soon, May 11th through the 13th in beautiful Bellevue, Washington. I hope to see you there.s I, as I wrap up here, I just wanna make sure that what, where

Emotional Anger After Stroke: Trisha Winski’s Story of a Carotid Web, Aphasia, and Learning to Slow Down Trisha Winski was 46 years old, working as a corporate finance director, with no high blood pressure, no diabetes, and no smoking history. By every conventional measure, she was not a stroke candidate. Then one morning, she stood up from the bathroom, collapsed, and couldn’t speak. Her ex-husband, sleeping on her couch by chance the night before, found her and called 911. The cause was a carotid web, a rare congenital condition she never knew she had. Three years and three months later, she’s living with aphasia, rebuilding her sense of self, and navigating something that doesn’t get nearly enough airtime in stroke conversations: emotional anger after stroke. What Is a Carotid Web — and Why Does It Matter? A carotid web is a rare shelf-like membrane in the internal carotid artery that disrupts blood flow, causing stagnation and clot formation. It is a form of intimal fibromuscular dysplasia and affects approximately 1.2% of the population. Most people never know they have it. Unlike the more commonly cited stroke risk factors, such as hypertension, diabetes, smoking, and obesity, a carotid web is congenital. You are born with it. There is no lifestyle adjustment that would have prevented Trisha’s stroke. That distinction matters enormously when you are trying to make sense of what happened to you. “I have nothing that could cause it,” Trisha says. “No blood pressure, no diabetes. It’s hard.” The treating hospital, MGH in Boston, caught the carotid web, something Trisha was later told many hospitals would have missed. It is a reminder of how much diagnosis still depends on the right clinician, the right technology, and a degree of luck.   Why Am I So Angry After My Stroke? One of the most underexplored dimensions of stroke recovery is emotional anger, not just grief, not just fear, but a specific kind of rage that has no clean target. “Why me? Why did I have to have it? It’s frustrating. It’s so frustrating,” Trisha says. “I’m just mad. I don’t know who I’m mad at.” This is a clinically recognized phenomenon. Emotional dysregulation after stroke can have both neurological and psychological origins. The brain regions that govern emotional control may be directly affected by the injury. At the same time, the psychological weight of sudden, unearned loss of function, of identity, of a future you thought you understood is enough to generate profound anger in anyone. For people like Trisha, who had no risk factors and no warning, the anger is compounded. There is no behaviour to regret, no choice to unwind. The stroke simply happened. That can make the anger feel even more directionless and, paradoxically, even more consuming. “Why me? Why did I have to have it? It’s frustrating. It’s so frustrating.” Bill’s gentle reframe in the conversation is worth noting here: “Why not me? Who are you to go through life completely unscathed?” It’s not a dismissal, it’s an invitation to move from the question that has no answer to the one that might.   Aphasia: The Deficit That Hurts the Most Trisha’s stroke affected her left hemisphere, producing aphasia, a language processing difficulty that affects word retrieval, word substitution, and speaking speed. Her numbers remained largely intact, which helped her return to her finance role. But the aphasia has been, in her own words, the hardest part. “If I didn’t have that, I wouldn’t be normal, but I could be normal,” she says. “The aphasia kills me.” One of the quieter consequences of aphasia that Trisha describes is self-censoring, stopping herself from communicating in public because she fears taking too long, disrupting the flow of conversation, or being misunderstood. She has developed a workaround: telling people upfront she has had a stroke, so they give her the time she needs to get her words out. The frustration-aphasia loop is well documented: the more stressed or frustrated a person becomes, the worse the aphasia tends to get. The therapeutic implication is significant. Managing emotional anger after a stroke is not just a well-being issue for someone with aphasia; it is directly tied to their ability to communicate. “Whenever I’m not stressed, I can get it out. When I get nervous, I can’t,” Trisha explains.   The Trauma Ripple: It’s Not Just About You One of the most striking moments in this episode is when Trisha reflects on her son Zach and ex-husband Jason, both of whom were visibly distraught in the days after her stroke. “I had a stroke. Why are they traumatized?” she says and then catches herself. “I forgot to look at it from their perspective. They watched me have a stroke.” This is something stroke survivors frequently underestimate. The people around them, partners, children, friends, even ex-partners like Jason, carry their own version of the trauma. They watched helplessly. They made decisions under panic. They grieved a version of the person they knew, even as that person survived. Acknowledging this doesn’t diminish the stroke survivor’s experience. It widens the frame of recovery to include the whole system and opens the door to conversations about collective healing.   Neuroplasticity Is Real — Give It Time Three years and three months after her stroke, Trisha’s message to people in the early stages of recovery is grounded and honest. “Neuroplasticity really does exist. My brain finds places to find the words I never had before. It takes longer, but it gets there. Just give yourself time.” She also reflects candidly on going back to work too early, returning before she was medically cleared, crying every day, and unable to follow her own cognitive processes. “I should have waited,” she says. “But I did it. It taught me that if I ever had it again, I won’t do that.” Recovery after stroke is non-linear, unglamorous, and deeply personal. But the brain is adapting, always. Trisha’s story is evidence of that and a reminder that emotional anger after a stroke, however consuming it feels, is not the end of the story.   Read Bill’s book on stroke recovery: recoveryafterstroke.com/book | Support the show: patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke  DisclaimerThis blog is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your doctor before making any changes to your health or recovery plan. Why Me? Navigating Emotional Anger After Stroke When You Did Nothing Wrong No risk factors. No warning. Just a carotid web she never knew about — and three years of emotional anger, aphasia, and finding her way back. Tiktok Instagram Facebook Highlights: 00:00 Introduction – Emotional anger after stroke 01:36 The Day of the Stroke 07:05 Post-Stroke Challenges and Rehabilitation 13:06 Ongoing Health Concerns and Medical Appointments 22:40 Navigating Health Challenges and Medical Support 30:20 Acceptance and Coping with Mortality 38:36 Communication Challenges and Aphasia 42:09 The Journey of Recovery and Self-Discovery 51:51 Facing the Aftermath of Stroke 59:22 Emotional Impact on Loved Ones 01:04:57 Navigating Life Changes 01:13:25 Finding Joy in New Passions 01:25:12 Trisha’s Journey: Emotional Anger After Stroke Transcript: Introduction – Emotional anger after stroke Trisha Lyn Winski (00:00) I don’t have anything that could cause it. I have nothing that, no blood pressure, no diabetes, It’s hard. It’s hard. don’t… It makes me mad. Really mad. Really, really mad that I to stroke. And like, everyone that has it… Bill Gasiamis (00:07) Yeah. Trisha Lyn Winski (00:21) or every dozen. I’m like, why me? Why did I have to have it? It’s frustrating. It’s so frustrating. Bill Gasiamis (00:28) Yeah, mad at who? Trisha Lyn Winski (00:30) I don’t know. I’m just mad. Like, I don’t know who I’m mad at. Bill Gasiamis (00:35) Before we get into Trisha’s story, and this is a raw, honest, and really important one, I wanna share a tool I’ve been using that I think can genuinely help stroke survivors get better answers faster. It’s called Turn2.ai. It’s an AI health sidekick that helps you deep dive into any burning question you have about your recovery. It searches across over 500,000 sources related to stroke, new research, expert discussions, patient stories and resources, and then keeps you updated on what matters each week. I use it myself and it’s my favorite tool of 2026 for staying current with what’s happening in stroke recovery. It’s low cost and completely patient first. Try it free and when you’re ready to subscribe, use my code, Bill10 at slash sidekick slash stroke to get a discount. I earn a small commission if you use that link at no extra cost to you. And that helps keep this podcast going. Also my book, The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing That Happened is available at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. And if you’d like to support the show on Patreon and my goal of reaching a thousand episodes, you can do that by going to patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. Links are in the show notes. Right, Trisha Winsky was 46 years old, healthy, had no risk factors and then a carotid web. She never knew she had changed everything. Let’s get into it. Bill Gasiamis (02:06) Trisha Winski, welcome to the podcast. Trisha Lyn Winski (02:09) Thank you. Bill Gasiamis (02:10) Also thank you for joining me so late. I really appreciate people hanging around till the late hours of the evening to join me on the podcast. I know it’s difficult for us to make the hours that suit us both. I’m in the daytime here in Australia and you’re in the nighttime there. Trisha Lyn Winski (02:27) Yeah. Yeah. It’s okay. I can come to you later. Yeah, it’s late. Bill Gasiamis (02:34) As a stroke survivor, is it too late? Trisha Lyn Winski (02:36) No, no, not at all. Bill Gasiamis (02:38) Okay, cool. Tell me a little bit about what you used to get up to. What was life like before the stroke? Trisha Lyn Winski (02:45) I just get up and get to work. deal with it all day, come home, I’d go to the restaurant, the bars, my friends, and then like I had a stroke and everything changed. Everything changed in an instant. Bill Gasiamis (03:00) How old were you in the district? Trisha Lyn Winski (03:02) I was 46. Bill Gasiamis (03:04) And before that, were you in a family, married, do you have kids, any of that stuff? Trisha Lyn Winski (03:08) I have a kid. Now he’s 28. He was 25 when I had it. I was married before, but like a long time ago. Actually, my ex found me when I had a serve. So he’s the one who found me. But so yeah, that’s all I have here. My mom passed away in November. So it’s been challenging. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (03:30) Dramatic, ⁓ Sorry to hear that. how many years ago was a stroke? Trisha Lyn Winski (03:37) ⁓ It’s three years and three months. Bill Gasiamis (03:41) Yeah. What were you focused on back then? What were the main goals in your life? Was it just working hard? Was it getting to a certain time in your career? What was the main goal? Trisha Lyn Winski (03:50) I think I working hard, but I just wanted to get to a good place in my career. And I think I was in a good place. Now I second guess at all time because I’ve had strokes now, it doesn’t matter what happens. I’m always second guessing it. But I was in a good place. I just felt like I needed to make them better. And the stroke happened and I so didn’t. Bill Gasiamis (04:17) What kind of work did you do? Trisha Lyn Winski (04:18) I was the corporate finance director for an auto group. Bill Gasiamis (04:22) A lot of hours was it like crazy hours or was just regular hours. Trisha Lyn Winski (04:26) No, I worked a lot of hours, but in the end he wanted me work like 40, 50 hours a week. I couldn’t do that. 50 hours a week was killing me, but 40 was enough. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (04:37) Yeah. Were, did you consider yourself healthy? Was there any signs that you were unwell, that there was a stroke kind of on the horizon? Trisha Lyn Winski (04:46) No, nothing, The day before this, had, my eye was like, I want to say it’s twitching, but it wasn’t twitching. It was doing something like odd. And I didn’t realize that until I had a TIA recently, but I realized it then. It’s, how can I explain it? It’s like a clear, a blonde shape in my eye. it, when I move, it goes with me. And I try to see around it, I can’t see around it. And I said to Gary, I worked with him, was like, I’m gonna have to go to hospital. This continues. can’t see.” And then it went away. And that’s the only symptom I had. Only symptom. And he said, no, I should told you that you might be having a stroke. like, even if you told me that, I never believed him. Never. Bill Gasiamis (05:23) Hello? Yeah. When you’re, and it went away and you didn’t have a chance to go see anyone about it. Trisha Lyn Winski (05:37) Yeah, it went away in like, honestly, like five minutes. So I didn’t see anybody, but I thought it was okay. I mean, I guess now that I’m looking back at it, it’s kind of odd. It’s one eye, but I felt like it was gone. I don’t know. yeah. No, you don’t. Bill Gasiamis (05:55) Yeah. How could you know? mean, no one knows these things. And, and then on the day of the stroke, what happened? Was there any kind of lead up? Did you notice not feeling well during that day? And then the stroke, what was it like? Trisha Lyn Winski (06:09) No, so I get up like every other day to go to work. I went in the bathroom and the night before that Jason said Jason’s ex-ad he stayed at my house because he needed need a place to stay because he couldn’t go out Zach again. I was like okay we’ll sleep in my couch I’m gonna go to work tomorrow but you can sleep here. So he was there and I think if he wasn’t there I would have died. Post-Stroke Challenges and Rehabilitation Makes me sad. Um, anyway, so when I woke up I went to bathroom and I stood up from the toilet and I like I fell over and I I didn’t even realize it. So I fresh my face in like five places when I fell and I didn’t even I didn’t even know it my whole side was numb. So I didn’t feel it. And Jason, you know, helped me to bed. I thought he helped me to bed. He didn’t he like drug me to bed. He got in the bed and then I… He came back in like five minutes later, are you okay? Like he knew something was wrong. And I couldn’t articulate to him. So I said, I’m fine, I’m fine. I’m gonna go to work. So he put the phone in my hand to call my boss. And he came back in like five minutes later and I… He put it in my right hand so I didn’t call anybody. And he said, my God, I’ll never forget this. He said, my God, you’re having a stroke. And I couldn’t talk. I couldn’t talk. I just… Yeah, I could hear him say that, but I couldn’t talk to him. It’s… It’s really scary. Like, even talking right now, like… It upsets me. Bill Gasiamis (07:37) but you can hear him say that. This is really raw for you, isn’t it? Yeah, understand. went through very similar things like trying to speak about it and getting it out of my self and trying to, you know, bring it into the world and get it off my shoulders. Like often brought me to tears and made it really difficult for me to have a meaningful conversation with anyone about it. Trisha Lyn Winski (08:07) It does. Bill Gasiamis (08:09) There’s small blessings there with you, okay? All happened when for whatever reason your ex was in the house and was able to attend you. It’s an amazing thing that that is even possible ⁓ considering how some breakups go and how possible. Yeah. Yeah. And so he called 911 and got you to hospital. Is that how you ended up in hospital? Trisha Lyn Winski (08:15) I know. We’re good friends, it was a challenge. Yes. So they ended up taking me to MGH, it’s a hospital right down the street from me. ⁓ But he’s not from here, he’s from Pennsylvania. he didn’t know where to me, like, just has to go to the hospital. So they knew when they came up. So MGH is like known for their strokes, they’re like really good at strokes. ⁓ And so that’s where they plan on taking me. Bill Gasiamis (09:01) Yeah. And do you get a sense of what happened when you were in the hospital? Do you have any kind of recollection of what was going on? Trisha Lyn Winski (09:11) I honestly, in the first week, no. I remember seeing, in the first day, I saw Zach, my son, and Zach, his brother Connor was in there too, and Jason, they all were there with me when I woke up. But I saw them, and I saw my friend Matt, and then that’s all I remember seeing. I remember seeing my mom on the third day. I’m in jail on this third day, but that’s about it. Bill Gasiamis (09:41) Yeah. And then did you have deficits? couldn’t feel one of your sides? Did that come back, whole problem, that whole challenge? Trisha Lyn Winski (09:50) So the right side, it came back, but it came back like sporadically. So I just kind of want to come back. So the first day I saw Matt and I put up my arm to talk to him and I couldn’t like put my arm out. So I just like tap my arm. ⁓ Now I can move my arm fully, but I can’t, I don’t have the dexterity in my arm. So I can’t like. I can’t flip an egg with this hand. it’s like this and then this is like that. I can’t do this. ⁓ And my right foot has spasticity in it. then the three toes on the side, I could curl them up all the time. Bill Gasiamis (10:36) Okay, next. Trisha Lyn Winski (10:37) and I did botox for it, nothing helps. Bill Gasiamis (10:40) huh. Okay. Have you heard of cryo-neuralysis? Trisha Lyn Winski (10:42) yeah, yeah, I got that back. Bill Gasiamis (10:45) You got cryo-neuralysis? Trisha Lyn Winski (10:47) No, what are you saying? Bill Gasiamis (10:49) That’s spasticity treatment. Cryo-neurolosis, it’s a real weird long word. There’s a dude in Canada that ⁓ started a procedure to help freeze a nerve and it expands the ⁓ tendons or something around that and it decreases spasticity and it lasts longer than Botox. Trisha Lyn Winski (10:50) ⁓ no. Okay. ⁓ yeah, you need to give me his name. We’re gonna talk. That’s I went twice to have it done. ⁓ it didn’t help at all. And I met, I met the guy, ⁓ the diarist, diarist ⁓ at the hospital. And he said, I didn’t think it was, it was going to work. I’m like, it’s the first I saw you. And he was like, I saw you and you had the shirt. I’m like, okay. I saw a million people that we can’t, I don’t remember who they are. Bill Gasiamis (11:20) Okay. Yeah. All right. So I’m going to put a link to the details for cryo-neuralysis in the show notes. ⁓ you and I will communicate after the podcast episode is done. And I’ll send you the details because there’s this amazing new procedure that people are raving about that seems to provide more relief than Botox in a lot of cases, and it lasts longer. And it’s basically done by freezing the nerve or doing something like that to the nerve. in an injection kind of format and then it releases the spasticity makes it improve. ⁓ well worth you looking into it, especially if you’re in the United States and it’s in Canada. ⁓ I know that doctor is training people in the United States and around the world. So there might be some people closer to you than Canada that you can go and chat about. Yeah. And how long did you spend in hospital in the end? Trisha Lyn Winski (12:28) Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I love it. four weeks. Yeah. So the first, the first week I was at MGH, ⁓ they kept me for longer in the ICU because I had hemorrhagic conversion, transformation, whatever it’s called. I, you know what that is? Well, that went from the, I can’t think of what I was trying to say. Bill Gasiamis (12:40) for weeks. Ongoing Health Concerns and Medical Appointments Trisha Lyn Winski (13:05) It went from the aneurysm to the, not the aneurysm, the. Bill Gasiamis (13:09) The carotid artery. The clot, ⁓ Trisha Lyn Winski (13:11) ⁓ yes. Yeah, carotid artery and went to my brain. So I my brain bleed for a couple of days, but not like bleed, bleed, but it showed blood. So they kept me in it for longer. Bill Gasiamis (13:23) Okay. And then did you go straight home? Did you go to rehab? What was that like? Trisha Lyn Winski (13:29) I went to rehab for three weeks. And I sobbed my eyes out. So at that point I was like, I was good, but I wasn’t at all good, but I thought I was good. I said, I wanna go home, I wanna go home. My son can, he teach me all, do all this stuff, I gotta go home. Now that I’m past it, there’s no way he could tell me, no way. I couldn’t tie my shoes. Bill Gasiamis (13:34) three weeks. And when you came home, were people living with you? Trisha Lyn Winski (13:56) So he’s. No, nobody was living with but he had to come move in with me for three months. Bill Gasiamis (14:06) Yeah, your son, yeah. What was that like? Trisha Lyn Winski (14:07) Yeah. Here’s my proxid. I mean, honestly, at the time it was fine because I slept all the time. I slept like, God, I would go to bed like seven, 730 at night. And I was sleeping until like, at least, some sort of next day. I’d get up for a few hours, do what I had to do, and then fall back asleep. But just, I slept for a lot. So it was okay then. But come to the end of it, I’m like, okay, it’s time for you at your place. I need my space again, but yeah, he’s yeah, I need to have my own space. But at the time I know I need to rest. Yeah, I do. Yeah. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (14:36) Yeah. and you need somebody around anyway. It’s important to have something near you if you’re unwell. Do they know what caused the stroke? Trisha Lyn Winski (14:53) ⁓ So I had a karate web. means that… ⁓ It’s really, it’s really rare. Only like 1.2 % of the whole population has it and I had it. It’s co-indentinob… co-ind… it’s… so I got it I was born. Bill Gasiamis (15:11) Yep, congenital. Trisha Lyn Winski (15:13) congenital, but they don’t know. I said that that would make it so much sense that they did a scan of your whole body at some point. I would have known that I had that years ago, but I didn’t know it. Bill Gasiamis (15:26) I don’t know what to look like, what to look for. The thing about scans, the whole body, my good friend of mine, the guy who helped me out when I was in hospital, he’s a radiographer and he does MRIs and all that kind of stuff. And he used to do my MRIs happened to be my friend happened to be working at the hospital that I was at. And he used to come and see me all the time. And I said to him, can we do a scan, you know, a preventative scan and check out, you know, my whole body? And he said, well, we can, but Trisha Lyn Winski (15:28) I know. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (15:53) What are we looking for? I said, I don’t know anything. He said, well, we could, we could find a heap of things or we could find nothing. And if we don’t know what we’re looking for, we can’t set our scanners to the particular, settings to find the thing that you’re looking for. Because one scanner looks for hundreds of different things and the settings for to look for that thing has to be set into the scanner. And that’s only when people have a suspicion that you might have X thing. Trisha Lyn Winski (16:09) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (16:23) then they set the scanner to find X thing and then they’ll look for it then they find it. He said, well, if we go in and do whole body scan, but we don’t even know what resolution to set it, how long to do the scan for. We don’t know what we’re looking for. So we don’t know what to do. And you have to be able to guide me and say, I want you to look for, in my case, a congenital arteriovenous malformation. In your case, carotid web. And in anyone else’s case is an aneurysm or whatever, but a general scan. Trisha Lyn Winski (16:38) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (16:53) Like it’s such a hard thing to do for people. then, and then sometimes you said you find things that people do have unexpectedly because they go in for a different scan and then you discover something else. But now they’ve got more information about something that’s quite unquote wrong with them. And it’s like, what do you do with that information? Do I do a procedure to get rid of it? Do I, do I leave it there? Do I monitor it? Like, do I worry about it? Do I not worry about it? Trisha Lyn Winski (16:56) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (17:21) is that it throws a big kind of curve ball out there and then no one knows how to react to it, how to respond. So it’s a big deal for somebody to say, can we have a whole body scan so we can work out what are all the things wrong with me? Trisha Lyn Winski (17:38) I it’s true, but I think that for me, most people have a carotid web. It’s obvious. know how old you are, it’s obvious. So then in that regard, like a carotid web, it looks a little indentured in the bloodstream. looks a little indentured in your artery. So I think that they would have seen it, but… ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (18:02) I love her. Trisha Lyn Winski (18:06) But then again, I don’t know. The hospital I went to, he said, you’re lucky you came here because most hospitals would have missed us. and I’m like, Bill Gasiamis (18:15) because they probably didn’t have the technology to find it. Trisha Lyn Winski (18:17) I don’t know. when I came to, it wasn’t months later, but I saw it on the scan. like, ⁓ it’s right there. ⁓ He said, yeah, but I thought it would be obvious, but it’s not so obvious. Bill Gasiamis (18:33) I just did a Google search for it and it says a carotid web is a rare shelf like membrane type narrowing in the internal carotid artery, specifically arising from the posterior wall of the carotid bulb. It is a form of intimal fibromuscular dysplasia that causes blood to stagnate forming clots that can lead to recurrent often severe ischemic strokes. Okay. So it causes blood to stay stagnant in that particular location causing clots. And you in the time we’ve been communicating, which is only in the last three or four weeks, you even sent me a message saying you just had an S you just had a TIA. ⁓ how come you’re still having clots? they not treating you or Trisha Lyn Winski (19:20) Yeah. No, I think they so they gave me um a scent in my re to kind of write that I don’t know why I had it cuz um, but my eye was like acting crazy again Just one eye and I I didn’t want to go to the hospital. I I don’t want the hospital at all for anything if I have if I don’t have to go I’m not going to hospital I Text Jason and Zach and they’re like no you have to go like I’ll wait a little while so Meanwhile, I was waiting a little while because I didn’t want to go and then I listened to ⁓ a red chat chat GBT He said no you have to go right now. Here’s why I’m like Now it’s like five hours later. I’m Sorry, so I went but and they said that I have ⁓ It’s likely I had a clot They don’t know where it came from though. So that’s that’s the thing is it’s confusing and by the way I think there’s something to be said about ⁓ I think if you have a stroke You can have one again easier than somebody who didn’t. I didn’t know that, but I learned it quickly. ⁓ So they said I had it, maybe went up in my eye, but it broke apart before it became an actual stroke. But I don’t know. Bill Gasiamis (20:41) thing. I love that you didn’t want to go and you ignored the male influences in your life, but you listen to chat. Trisha Lyn Winski (20:50) Thank you. I did, I did. They’re so smart. they say, I find on Google anyway. So that I listened to ChatGVT, it was like, I don’t know. And I know that like… Bill Gasiamis (21:05) You know that that’s kind of mental. Trisha Lyn Winski (21:08) It is actually, but I know that like my son is actually really smart and I think that they, but I didn’t listen him. I just listened to Chad Judy. Bill Gasiamis (21:18) Yeah. Anyhow, I love that you went in the end because, ⁓ and why don’t you want to go like, you just hate doctors and hospitals and that kind of thing? They saved you, didn’t they? Didn’t they save you? Didn’t they help you? Trisha Lyn Winski (21:29) There was? Yeah, but I don’t know. I think I spent so much time in there. ⁓ I don’t know. It’s in my head. I don’t like to sit in hospitals because of that. So after having the stroke, I stayed in hospital for month. I got out. I went back in like two weeks. I fell over twice. They thought that’s why. So when I was in hospital, something like they go Vegas something is pretty common. And I was like, okay, I did want to go then. I did want to go and then Zach made me. And then two months later, I went in to get the stint. And at that time I got a period. So it’s a long story. But I said to the doctor, I’m like, well, I’ll be okay. Does it do anything else because of this? He’s like, no, you should be fine. But if it gets bad, you have to go the hospital. he got bad. I almost died. I almost died from that. And that made me traumatized because I was awake and alive for all of it. I saw it all and passed out like six times in like three, I don’t know how many days, like five days. Yeah, but. Navigating Health Challenges and Medical Support Bill Gasiamis (22:46) Yeah. The challenge with something going wrong in hospital is that it’s less likely to be as dramatic as something going wrong at home. And that’s the thing, right? If you haven’t got help, then the chances that your stroke cause you way more deficits. That’s like so much worse. The best place for you to be is somewhere other than at home because you don’t want to risk being at home alone when something goes wrong and then you’re home alone. Trisha Lyn Winski (23:04) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (23:15) when the blood flow has stopped to your head for a lot of hours. Like it could kill you, it make you more disabled and it could do all sorts of things. it’s like, but I get the whole, what is it like? It’s kind of like an anxiety about medical people and hospitals and stuff like that. Trisha Lyn Winski (23:20) Yeah. Yeah. I think that it’s mostly like I don’t like to stay there. I got a weird thing about this. I don’t like to stay there. I can stay anywhere I go, but the hospital really bothered me. I think that they were actually pretty good to me. So I’m not mad at them for that. ⁓ But I don’t want to see them now if I can possibly help it. Bill Gasiamis (23:54) Yeah, you’re done with them. Trisha Lyn Winski (23:56) I’m totally done. Bill Gasiamis (23:58) Yeah, I get it. I got, I got to that stage. My dramas were like three or four years worth of, you know, medical appointments, scans, surgery, rehab. Trisha Lyn Winski (24:07) Oh my god. Medical appointments. Medical appointments, forget it. They’re like, oh my god. I have so many of them, I can’t even say it. Bill Gasiamis (24:11) Yeah. I hear you. hear you. went through the same thing and then I got over it. now lately I’ve been going back to the hospital and seeing medical doctors for, um, not how I haven’t got heart issues, my, I’ve got high blood pressure and they don’t know what’s causing it. And, know, I’ve had my heart checked. I’ve had my arteries checked. I’ve had all these tests, blood tests, MRIs, the whole lot, and it’s getting a little bit old, you know, like I’m over it. But the truth is without them, I don’t. I don’t have a hope. Like if my blood pressure goes through the roof, you know, which had been, had been sitting at 170 over 120, 130. And I have a brain hemorrhage because of uh, high blood pressure. know what a brain hemorrhage is like, you know, I don’t want to have another one. So I’m like, I am going to, uh, I’m going to shut up, go through it and be grateful that I have medical support. Um, which, which Trisha Lyn Winski (24:55) Yeah. I know. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (25:14) You know, a lot of people don’t get to have, it’s like, whatever, you know, I’ll cop it. I’ll cop it. I’ll go. And hopefully they can get ahead of it. So now they’re just changing my medication. I want to get to the bottom of it. Why have I got high blood pressure? The challenge with the medical system that I have is, is they just tell you, you have it and here’s something to stop it from being high. But I, they never say to you, we’re going to investigate why, like we’re going to try to get to the bottom of it. Trisha Lyn Winski (25:16) Yeah. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (25:40) and I’ve been pushing them to investigate why do I have high blood pressure. Trisha Lyn Winski (25:44) sure. So I don’t have, I never had high blood pressure but speaking of I’ve, I don’t have a problem with my heart but they, so that when I had this for the first time they made me get out and have to, I had to wear a heart monitor for a month and I said like why am I wearing a heart monitor? There was something, they, I don’t know what it is. Bill Gasiamis (25:51) Yeah. Trisha Lyn Winski (26:13) Afib or something like that in there. And this time was the same thing. had heart bars over there right now. I had to send it back and they’re gonna send me new one. every time I’ve taken my heart test, and by the went for EKG just the other day. It was fine. But they found like something near my heart rate, it’s not like I need to be concerned about these. It’s nothing I need to be concerned about. So I was like, okay. They’re making you wear that for a month. Anyway. Bill Gasiamis (26:46) Yeah, just to go through things, just to check things, just to work some stuff out. Trisha Lyn Winski (26:47) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, this month I have ton, I have like seven appointments. Bill Gasiamis (26:56) Yeah, I used to forget my appointments all the time, even though I had him in my calendar, even though I had reminders, I just, even though I got reminded on the day, an hour before, two hours before, he meant nothing to me. I would just completely forget about him. Trisha Lyn Winski (26:59) me too. Me too. Same thing. I forgot all of it. And I had to share it with Zach and he could tell me, have an appointment. Like, okay. I forgot. He’s like, have an appointment. I’m like, fuck, I have to go. Bill Gasiamis (27:13) Yeah. How long did it take you to get back to work? Trisha Lyn Winski (27:28) I at least I went back to work. I went back to work before I was told I could go back to work. And I wrote them an email like, listen, I can’t sit at home and run one fucking freeze. I need to do something. So I went back to work. ⁓ And at first I went back to work part time. And honestly, like I cried. I left there crying every day. And not because I think that I. Not because of people. don’t think it was the people. I couldn’t understand. My head was like… I couldn’t focus and put all that work into my… I couldn’t put it into me. So I couldn’t understand what I was doing. And then you give them a month. Eventually I got it, but it was a struggle. I should have waited until October. And they said I should go back in October. Maybe I could go back in October. I should have waited until then. Bill Gasiamis (28:22) Yeah. Do you kind of like a nervous energy type of person? Do you can’t sit still or is it like, can’t spend a lot of time on your own with yourself? Like, is it? Trisha Lyn Winski (28:34) I can spend a lot of time by myself. don’t like to ⁓ here by myself. I can be by myself. I don’t like to be… I can’t think of… What did you say before? Bill Gasiamis (28:48) Is it just downtime? Is it the downtime? it too much? Did you have too much downtime? Trisha Lyn Winski (28:52) Yes, definitely too much downtime. But I couldn’t see I was sitting at home and Zach was there, whatever he was doing. was like, I can’t, I need to do something. So I went to work and in all reality, I should have walked around. should have, I didn’t do that. Bill Gasiamis (29:04) Yeah. Yeah. How did your colleagues find you when you went back? Did they kind of appreciate what you had been through? Was that easy to have those conversations? What was it like? Trisha Lyn Winski (29:21) Yeah, so I oversaw all the finances department. ⁓ They were actually like, honestly like rock stars. They were like really, really good to me. ⁓ That was helpful. because I love them anyway. it made me feel good to say that that’s what I’m doing. ⁓ But I still left there and cried. Not because like I think that I just couldn’t understand it. They were good to me. Everyone was good to me in theory, I couldn’t understand. Bill Gasiamis (29:56) you had trouble with the work, with doing your job because of your cognitive function. Trisha Lyn Winski (29:59) Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s a other little things with that, it’s more or less the cognitive function is a problem to do the work. Bill Gasiamis (30:12) Yeah. Tiring. Like I mentioned, it’s really mentally draining and tiring. remember sitting in front of a computer trying to work out what was going on on the screen and it being completely just blank. Acceptance and Coping with Mortality Trisha Lyn Winski (30:22) And so that’s actually what probably got me the most was that what you’re saying. I’d be sitting there and look at my screen. I couldn’t remember what I was doing, but I remember like weird things. I remember how to do like Excel. I don’t know how I remember Excel, but I did. I was really good with numbers. And they said that I was going to have a problem with numbers and everything. So I have aphasia too. I don’t have a choice with that, but Bill Gasiamis (30:31) Yeah. Trisha Lyn Winski (30:49) That’s why I talk so weird. Bill Gasiamis (30:52) Okay, I didn’t notice. Trisha Lyn Winski (30:54) Oh, oh, I feel good. But yeah, I have aphasia. But I can do certain things. And the numbers was going to be, they said it going to, I couldn’t, that’s going to be a problem. And the numbers, I can do all day. But I can’t do other little things. Bill Gasiamis (31:11) I understand. So you went back to work. It was kind of helpful, probably too early to go back, but good to be out of the house. Good to be connecting with people again. And has that improved? Did you find that you’ve been able to kind of get better in front of a screen, better with the things that you struggled with, or is it still still a bit of a challenge? Trisha Lyn Winski (31:19) Yeah. Yeah. So two things, ⁓ I got fired eventually, and that’s another whole issue. Yeah, yeah, we’ll talk about that another time. but ⁓ so, but now that I’m here, I could look my computer and it’s fine. I can do it all day. But I really, it’s a long story. think that Warren, my boss, ⁓ Deb, but they definitely like hinder me. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (31:39) Understand. another time. Yeah. Okay. I understand. Well, maybe we won’t talk about it, like, because of the complications with that, but that’s all good. I understand. So, ⁓ do you know, a lot of the times you hear about acceptance and you hear about, ⁓ like, Trisha Lyn Winski (32:07) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (32:23) When some, well, something goes through something serious, something difficult, you know, there has to be kind of this acceptance of where they’re at. And that’s kind of the first stage of healing recovery, overcoming. Where are you with all of this? you like, totally get that at 46. It’s a shock to have a stroke. You look perfectly fine, perfectly healthy. This thing that you didn’t know about that you’ve had for 46 years suddenly causes an issue. How do you deal with your mortality and knowing that things can go wrong, even though you’re not aware of, you you’re not doing anything to really make your situation worse. You look fit and healthy. Were you drinking, smoking, doing any of that kind of stuff? Trisha Lyn Winski (33:06) I drank occasionally, I wasn’t a drunk, I don’t smoke. Bill Gasiamis (33:11) yeah social smoke social drinker but not smoker Trisha Lyn Winski (33:15) Yeah, I don’t smoke. I don’t have anything that could cause it. I have nothing that, no blood pressure, no diabetes, It’s hard. Jason talks about it all the time. It’s hard. don’t… It makes me mad. Really mad. Really, really mad that I to stroke. And like, everyone that has it… Bill Gasiamis (33:24) Yeah. Trisha Lyn Winski (33:41) or every dozen. I’m like, why me? Why did I have to have it? It’s frustrating. It’s so frustrating. Bill Gasiamis (33:48) Yeah, mad at who? Trisha Lyn Winski (33:50) I don’t know. I’m just mad. Like, I don’t know who I’m mad at. Bill Gasiamis (33:56) Yeah. The thing about the why me question, it’s a fair question. asked it too. I even ask it now sometimes, especially when, um, I’ve got to go back for more tests, more, uh, now I’ve got high blood pressure. Like, like I needed another thing to have, you know, like, and it’s like, the only thing that I come back with after why me is why not me? Like, who are you to go through life completely unscathed and get to 99 and then die from natural Bill Gasiamis (34:25) wanted to stop there for a second because that question, why me, is something I wrote about in my book. It’s one of the most common and most painful places stroke survivors get stuck. If you want to read about it and how I worked through it and what I found on the other side, the book is called The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing That Happened and it’s available at You’ll find the link in the show notes. And now let’s get back to Tricia. Bill Gasiamis (34:54) like Trisha Lyn Winski (34:54) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (34:55) You’re normal. being normal, ⁓ normal things happen to people. Some of those things that are shit are strokes and heart attacks and stuff that you didn’t know that you were born with. ⁓ what’s really interesting though, is to live the life after stroke and to kind of wrap my head around what that looks like. My left side feels numb all the time. ⁓ tighter, ⁓ has spasticity, but nothing is curled. Like my fingers on my toes are not curled, but it’s tighter. ⁓ it hurts. ⁓ It’s colder, it’s ⁓ sensitive, I’ve got a, and I always have a comparison of the quote unquote normal side, the other side, it’s always. And the comparison I think is worse because it makes me notice my affected side and that noticing it. Trisha Lyn Winski (35:31) Yeah. or yeah. Bill Gasiamis (35:46) makes the reality happen again every day. Like it’s a new, I wake up in the morning, I get out of bed, my left side still sleepy. I have to be careful. If I’m not careful, I’ll lose my balance. I don’t want to fall over. And it’s like, I get to experience a different version of myself. And sometimes I want to be grateful for that. want to say, wow, what a cool, different thing to experience in a body. But then I’m trying to work out like, what’s the benefit of it? don’t know if there’s a benefit. ⁓ Trisha Lyn Winski (36:14) I don’t know either. Bill Gasiamis (36:15) to me, but, Trisha Lyn Winski (36:15) I don’t either. Bill Gasiamis (36:18) but here I am talking to you and, and, and 390 people before you, ⁓ about strike all over the world and we’re putting something out and it’s making a difference. And maybe that’s the benefit. I don’t know, but do know what I mean? Like, why not us? I hate asking that question too. Trisha Lyn Winski (36:34) I don’t know. You had ⁓ the podcast on YouTube and I stumbled upon it on the wise. I watched YouTube and then you came out there and I’m like, so before that I was looking at different, I watched every video, every video on strokes, every video I could possibly type but I watched. I did. ⁓ And then I stumbled upon your stuff and I watched that stuff too. And that’s why I wouldn’t have thought to call you or reach out to you. Bill Gasiamis (37:11) Was it helpful? Was it helpful? Trisha Lyn Winski (37:13) Yeah, it is helpful. But it doesn’t change the fact that I had a stroke. All the people that had it, I feel bad for them. Honestly, like, so when I was at the hospital, they had me join a bunch of groups on Facebook and Instagram that are like, they’re people who’ve gone through a stroke. most, I don’t comment on them. I don’t say, because most of the time it’s people bitching. Bill Gasiamis (37:19) Yeah. Yeah. Trisha Lyn Winski (37:43) But I really like, times I, trust me, I’m like ready to kill somebody. But I don’t like say it there. I only ask them questions that are really serious. But sometimes I read what they say. And there was a guy the other day, I don’t know what he wrote, but he had like all kinds of words that they were way jumbled. was like, his message just didn’t make sense. I thought to myself, God, if I was like that, I’d be so sad. Somebody, I do think that he’s worse than I could be, but you don’t know. Bill Gasiamis (38:19) Yeah. Communication Challenges and Aphasia Yeah. He, his words are more jumbled than yours. And you, if you, you, you’re thinking, if you were like that, you would be probably feeling more sad than you currently are. And you’re assuming that maybe that person is feeling sad, but maybe they’re not, maybe they just got the challenge and they’re taking on the challenge and they’re trying to heal and recover. don’t know. And maybe, maybe they’re getting help and support through that therapy and also maybe psychological help and all that kind of stuff. Have you ever had any counseling or anything like that to sort of try and wrap your head around what the hell’s going on in your life? Trisha Lyn Winski (38:54) So I did it once and actually like I think she was okay. I felt like I was always having to talk. I know that I’m so stocked but she wasn’t asking me a lot of questions and I felt like she needs to me more questions. I’ll have more answers but like but she didn’t. She just wanted me to talk so I just talked. But I stopped seeing her because I… So two reasons. I stopped seeing her because they when they fire me I… I didn’t know what I had to do. I knew I insured that I didn’t know how long it was going to be for me to have that. So I talked to her for a little bit and then I stopped talking to her because I just couldn’t deal with it. I think now I’m getting to the point where I’m going to do it. Bill Gasiamis (39:37) It was a bit early. I like that. I like what you said there. Cause sometimes it’s early. It’s too early to go through that and unwrap it. Right. And now a little bit of times past, you probably have more conscious awareness of, do need to talk about this and I need to go through and see a certain person. And now I’m going to take that action. It’s been three years and now I can take that action. like it. ⁓ and I like what you said about, you have to feel like you’re connected to that person or you have rapport or Trisha Lyn Winski (39:46) It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (40:11) they get you and you’re not just, it’s not a one way conversation. That’s really important in choosing a counselor. I know my counselor, we, I didn’t do all the talking. was like you and me chatting now about stuff. had a conversation about things regularly. And therefore, ⁓ one of the good things that she was able to do was just ease my mind when I would go off on real negative tangents, you know, she would try to bring me back down just to calm and. Trisha Lyn Winski (40:35) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (40:39) settle me down and offer me hope. Trisha Lyn Winski (40:42) I think my, honestly my biggest problem with this whole stroke and having it at all, I have aphasia and that 100 % kills me. Because I can’t like, I can talk like normal but I can’t talk like… I forget what I’m saying. So it’s in my brain, but I can’t spit it out. I get really frustrated at that point. people, I had a stroke, my left hemisphere and my right side went numb. My left hemisphere is all kinds of different, different things that I can’t do. The good news is my left means I can’t like, I can talk to people like this. But the other person and that guy I was talking about, he probably had the right side, his aphasia was. really bad, really bad. But I was a person who talked like really fast all the time, all the time. And now like, I think part of my brain goes so fast and I can’t spit it out. I get really, I get, it’s, yeah. Bill Gasiamis (41:38) Okay. as quickly as you can. Okay, so you know, I’ve spoken to a ton of people who have aphasia. And one of the things they say to me is when they have frustration, their aphasia is worse. So the skill is to learn to be less frustrated with oneself, which means that’s like a personal love thing. That’s self love, that’s supporting yourself, you know, and going. Trisha Lyn Winski (42:00) It is. The Journey of Recovery and Self-Discovery Yeah, that’s a point. That’s a good point. Bill Gasiamis (42:13) And it’s going like, well, you know, you’re trying your best. It’s all good. You know, don’t get frustrated with yourself. Don’t hate yourself. Don’t give yourself a hard time about it. ⁓ and try and decrease the frustration. Then the aphasia gets less impactful, but, ⁓ and then maybe, you know, this part of learning the new you is bring the old Trisha with you, but maybe the nutrition needs to be a little bit more slow, a little more measured, a little more calm. And it’s a skill because for 46 years, you were the regular. Trisha Lyn Winski (42:36) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (42:42) Tricia, the one that you always knew, but now you’ve got to adjust things a little bit. It’s like people going into midlife, right? Like us, you know, in our fifties and then, um, or, know, sort of approaching 50 on and beyond and then go, I’m going to keep eating, uh, fast food that I ate when I was 21 and 20, know, McDonald’s or sodas or whatever. You can’t do it anymore. You have to make adjustments, even though that’s been your habit for the longest time, your body’s going, I can’t deal with this stuff anymore. Trisha Lyn Winski (43:03) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (43:12) Take it out, you know, let’s simplify things. And it’s kind of like how to approach. I stroke recoveries things need to kind of get paid back and simplified. And it has to start with self love. And you have to acknowledge how much effort you’ve already put in for the last three years to get you to the position that you are now, which is far better than you were three years ago when the stroke happened. And you have to celebrate. how much your body is trying to support you heal your brain. Your body’s trying to get you over the line and your mindset is getting frustrated with itself, which is making things worse. Tweak that and things will get a bit better maybe. I don’t know. Trisha Lyn Winski (43:55) It does. You’re 100 % right. ⁓ So whenever I’m not stressed, so two things. I think when I talk to people I don’t know, I always get like nervous about that. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (44:10) You think they’re thinking about things that you’re not they’re not really Trisha Lyn Winski (44:13) Yeah, but then who knows what they’re thinking of. that’s just how I get, whenever I get like, I went to a concert like a couple of years ago and I was like, I believe I couldn’t, I could hear that the music is so loud in my brain. Like I gotta get out of here. So I left. I’ve gotten better since then, but there’s something about, I have to do things slower. I have to do things over. I’ve realized that like recently, like in the last like maybe month, I have to do things very slow. I have to. And maybe this is God’s way of like, tell me like slow the f down, you’re going too fast. But that’s how I live my whole life. And then all of a sudden, now you’re not going to get up. Yeah, it’s a huge testament. So I can do it right. Not always right. Bill Gasiamis (45:01) Yeah, there’s an adjustment. Yeah, adjustment. Yeah. Trisha Lyn Winski (45:09) because again, it’s isophagia, it’s gonna be hair mess, if I go slower, much slower, I can get it all out. But, ugh. Bill Gasiamis (45:22) It’s a lot of work, man. It doesn’t end here. You know, the work just as just beginning, you know, this getting to understand yourself, to know yourself, to support yourself, to be your biggest advocate. ⁓ and then to fail and then to try and be the person that, ⁓ picks themselves up and goes again and tries again without getting frustrated. I know exactly what you mean. Like so many people listening will know what you mean. Trisha Lyn Winski (45:22) It’s a pain. It’s a pain! Bill Gasiamis (45:51) And with time, you’ll get better and better because I know that three years seems like a long time, but it’s early in the recovery phase. The recovery is still going to continue. Year four, five, six, seven will be better and better and better. I’m, I’m 12 years post brain surgery and 14 years post first incident. So it’s like, things are still improving and getting better for me. Trisha Lyn Winski (46:17) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (46:18) And one of the things is the way that my body responds to physical exercise. went for a bike ride a little while ago, a couple of weeks ago. And when I used to go for a bike ride at the beginning, um, man, I would be wiped out for the entire day. Uh, and I used to do a morning bike ride about like 10, 30, 11 o’clock and I’d be wiped out for the rest of the day. Trisha Lyn Winski (46:32) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (46:39) Whereas now I can go for a bike ride and just be wiped out like a regular person, you know, about an hour or two, and then I’m back on board with doing other tasks. So it takes so much time for the brain to heal. Nobody can give you a timeline and you’ve got heaps more healing to go. Trisha Lyn Winski (46:57) So I looked at my stuff on YouTube, how long it takes to recover from a stroke. I’ve looked at that everywhere. Everywhere I can find. I’ve looked at that. It’s so funny. Like everybody says that it’s, everybody’s story is different. Everybody. It doesn’t matter how long you were in hospital for, doesn’t how long. But that like, it’s crazy. have no like timetable of when I’m going to get better. None. I have to deal with it. Bill Gasiamis (47:27) Yeah. It’s such a hard thing. It’s not a broken bone, know, like six weeks, stay off it, do a little bit of rehab and then you’re back to normal. Trisha Lyn Winski (47:28) It sucks, but. I had two years before this or maybe a year before that, had a rotator cuff surgery. I look back at that and I’m like, that was so bad. And that was like night and day. The stroke definitely like, the stroke killed me. Not the stroke. I don’t want to say the stroke. I think having aphasia killed me. I do, the stroke is, get me wrong. I don’t like it either, but ⁓ the aphasia kills me. If I didn’t have that, I wouldn’t be normal, but I can be normal. But the aphasia. Bill Gasiamis (48:00) Okay. Yeah. But, but what, but that word killed me is a real heavy word, right? maybe you should consider changing that word, but also like, didn’t pick that you had aphasia and I, and I speak to stroke survivors all the time. Like I didn’t pick it. I, I just assumed that was the way you process your words and that’s how you get things out. Like it didn’t, I didn’t notice it at all. Trisha Lyn Winski (48:26) I know, I know, it’s funny that said Yeah, that’s actually good. That’s really good. But I know it’s it. I definitely know it’s it. I could talk like a mile a minute and now like. Bill Gasiamis (48:47) Yeah. Trisha Lyn Winski (48:52) I mean… Bill Gasiamis (48:52) Maybe it was maybe maybe now it’s more about ⁓ quality rather than quantity, Trisha. Trisha Lyn Winski (49:00) Apparently it is. Bill Gasiamis (49:01) I’m not saying that you didn’t have quality in that I didn’t know you so I’m not kind of yeah but you know what I mean like Trisha Lyn Winski (49:03) Yeah. No, it’s okay. Trust me, it’s okay. But yeah, it just frustrates me. I can’t get out what I want to get out. And so at that time, just give me a little time, I’ll get it out. But I can’t say that to people when I’m out. I can’t say this to So I just, I don’t say it at all. Bill Gasiamis (49:22) Yeah. so you stop yourself from communicating because you think you’re taking too long and it’s interrupting the flow of the conversation. Yeah. I think you’re doing that to yourself. I don’t think that’s true. We’ve had a fantastic conversation here and I’ve never picked it. Trisha Lyn Winski (49:34) Yeah. all day. But so you’re somebody who’s had a stroke before. It’s kind of different for me because you had. But if you didn’t have a stroke, will be… Well, I don’t know. Maybe not. Maybe one-on-one I’m okay. No, think I… No, it’s because you had a stroke. I think of all the people I’ve talked to and they’re one-on-one. I don’t do well with them. But I think that you’ve had a stroke so I just… I know how to communicate with you. Bill Gasiamis (49:54) I understand. And maybe you’re more at ease about it. Less feeling, judged. I understand. Yeah. Trisha Lyn Winski (50:20) Yes, all day. Even that guy I told you about that that said that on Facebook God like I Really like my heart goes out to him But then that there’s the people that are fishing a plane I’m like I want to say my heart goes out to them, it really, it goes to certain people. I think that. He’s like going through it. Bill Gasiamis (50:45) Yeah. One of the problems with going to Facebook to bitch and moan about it, especially when you’re going through it is that you get an abundance of people who also are there to bitch and moan about it. And, and that makes it worse. think you should do bitching and moaning on your own. Like when there’s no one watching or listening. Cause then that way there’s not a loop of bitching and moaning that happens. That makes it dramatically worse for everybody. Trisha Lyn Winski (51:01) Yeah, I do it myself. Bill Gasiamis (51:09) ⁓ and that’s why I don’t hang around on Facebook, Instagram, social media, or anything like that for those types of conversations. If I’m not sharing a little bit of wisdom or somebody’s story or, ⁓ asking a question, like a genuine question, one of the questions might be, did you struggle driving and did you have to pull over and go to sleep in the middle of the road? If you had a big trip ahead of you in the car, I’ve done that. Like if, if I’m not asking a question like that, I don’t want to be, ⁓ on social media saying. life sucks, this sucks, that sucks. Like forget about it. What’s the point of that? That’s why I started the podcast so I can have my own conversations about it that were positive based on what we’re overcoming rather than all the shit we’re dealing with. And that way ⁓ we take off that spiral, the negative downward spiral. trying to make it an upward spiral. You know, where things are. Trisha Lyn Winski (51:41) Yeah. Facing the Aftermath of Stroke Bill Gasiamis (52:05) I don’t know, we’re seeing the glass half full perhaps, or we’re seeing the positive that came out of it. If something like, I know there’s some positive stuff that came out of stroke for you. Day one, you definitely didn’t think that maybe three years down the track. Maybe if it wasn’t for this, well, then that wouldn’t have happened for me. Like I’ve been on TV. I’ve been at the stroke foundation. I’ve been on radio. I’ve been, I’ve presented. I’ve got a podcast. wrote a book. Like it’s taken years and years for all those good things to come, but they never would have happened if I didn’t have a stroke. So I wanted to have those types of conversations, you know, what are the positive things we can turn this into? Because dude, then there’s just enough shit to deal with that. We don’t have to deal with every other version of it, you know? ⁓ and I think it’s better to have your me personally, my negative moments alone, cause I don’t want to get into a competition with somebody. Trisha Lyn Winski (52:42) That’s good. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (53:05) who I say, I didn’t sleep well, my left side hurts, it feels like pins and needles. And then they say to me, ⁓ you think that’s bad? Well, you know, forget about it. I don’t want to be that that guy on the other end of a conversation like that, you know. Trisha Lyn Winski (53:13) Yeah. ⁓ So you said your left side, ⁓ you see you have pin the needles, is always like that? So I’m sorry, had hemorrhagic stroke? Okay. I know the difference between two, ⁓ why did you have hemorrhagic stroke? Bill Gasiamis (53:27) Always, yeah, never goes away. Yeah, Brain blade. I was born with a blood vessel that was malformed. So it was like really weak one. I was really like, uh, was kind of like, uh, uh, it wasn’t created properly in my brain when I was born and it’s called an arteriovenous malformation. then they sit idle, they sit idle and they do nothing for a lot of people. And then sometimes they burst. Trisha Lyn Winski (53:58) Mm-hmm. ⁓ I heard it. Bill Gasiamis (54:08) And people sometimes have them all over their body. They don’t have to have them in their head. They can have them on the skin, ⁓ in, in an arm on a leg, wherever. And on an arm and a leg, they, they decrease the blood flow and they create real big lesions of skin damage on the surface in a brain. They leak into the brain and they cause a stroke. ⁓ so the challenge with it is like you, there was no signs and symptoms. for any of my life until it started bleeding. And when I took action, eventually, I was like, yo, I didn’t want to go to the doctor. I didn’t want to go to the hospital. I want to do any of that. It took seven days for me to go to the hospital. When I finally got there, they found the scan, found the blood in my head. And then they thought it would stop bleeding and it didn’t. And then it bled again and they wanted to monitor it to see if it stops bleeding. They wanted to try to avoid surgery. And then a bled a third time. And then after they bled the third time, they said, we have to have surgery. We’ve got to take it out because it’s too dangerous. And when it bled the second time, I didn’

Adam kicks off the episode beefin' with Gardettos and today's snack world. Adam then recaps his awesome weekend in DSM full of great food, arcade games and comedy! We list the best comedians we've ever seen then share this week's perfect song. The boys discuss the elite 8 of the kids show bracket and all of the upsets and chaos that has happened! In the meat, Mm!, we do a draft of Vegas Movies in honor of March Madness. Take a peak into a Viewmaster with us to close the show. Hut Hut! Love y'all

Jennie Nash launches a brand-new Hot Seat Coaching series on the podcast—real, on-air coaching sessions where listeners get to hear a story develop in real time.In the first episode, Jennie brings #amwriting podcast producer Andrew Parrella out from behind the microphone as he begins work on his first novel. Fresh off completing the Blueprint challenge, Andrew shares his gothic horror premise: a Dracula-inspired story set in 1920s London, where Abriana Harker—the daughter of Mina Harker—faces a string of mysterious deaths unfolding against the backdrop of the suffrage movement.Jennie and Andrew pressure-test the blueprint together, refining the novel's central point, exploring how Van Helsing's legacy shapes the world of the story, and identifying ways to strengthen Abriana's role so the plot is driven by her choices. Andrew leaves with clear next steps—and this is just the beginning: he'll return in future episodes as Jennie continues coaching him through the process of developing the novel.You can connect with Andrew via his website AndrewParrella.com#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash and you're listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life. Love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hi, I'm Jenny Nash and you're listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast.This is something new. It's a hot seat coaching episode where we're gonna work through a real challenge in real time with a real writer. And today. I'm joined by a really special guest. His name is Andrew Perella, and he has been the producer of this podcast for many, many years and is stepping out from behind the microphone to write his first novel.Andrew participated in the Winter Blueprint challenge that we recently completed. Which is to say he answered all 14 of the blueprint questions during our challenge and, and produced a [00:01:00] finished blueprint. And so I wanted to get on with him and talk about what do we do next? How do we go from there to the next thing?And he agreed to do that to help show our listeners how it goes. And I'm so excited about it because. He just did incredible work and also has so much work to go, so hopefully we're gonna get to, we're gonna get to follow Andrew as he does this for a few episodes and bring you along on the journey. So welcome Andrew from Behind the Microphone.Andrew: So much work to go. Thank you, Jenny. I'm really excited to be here.Jennie: So Andrew is, has a long career in public radio and is a producer of podcast for many people and is a storytelling guy, you know, as well as a sound guy. So this is, this is a big move. I feel like this is a right big move for you for sure, for deciding.This is the time to embrace the fact that you wanna do this thing. Does it [00:02:00] feel like that to you?Andrew: It, it feels like a right big move for me that I'm kind of prioritizing now this writing project for me. I'm prioritizing my project, um, over, over, uh, the projects of others whom, whom I help with projects.Yeah. So this is a big, big a right big moment for me.Jennie: It is totally a riping moment and. You're in the hot seat personal coaching, which I, I really appreciate you being willing to do So, um, where we stand today is, as I said, you, you finished the blueprint, you did all the work, you did the thing. So I'm just curious to sort of check in.How do you feel? Do you feel like that's an accomplishment? Do you feel some momentum? Like, what, where are you feeling, what are you feeling? Um,Andrew: I, I feel like it is a, a really big accomplishment because as we were working through the blueprint, I was getting feedback, uh, from you and KJ Dium about, uh, about, uh, how I was, how I was creating my [00:03:00] blueprint.It got me, it forced me to think about the book in some very real terms, in ways that I hadn't yet, and in ways that, you know, I had been kind of thinking about the book in more abstract notions. Um, and like this was putting pen to paper, uh, on so many things to think about, you know, beyond the, beyond the simple plot structure.Um, and I realized as I was going through this. How much I hadn't yet considered, and I think this helped to show me where the holes in my story were. Um. And he, even, even as I've finished, quote unquote, finished the blueprint, it's like I finished one inter iteration of it and like already the story has changed since I first started work on the blueprint.And so already I know I gotta go back and start reiterating on, on, on this, uh, uh, as we go along here.Jennie: Yeah. I mean, and that's the point, right? Yeah. Is the whole point is this is a tool that reveals. [00:04:00] What's working and what's not working? Is this what I want? Does this reflect my vision? And you get to, to play with that wet clay of the idea.So that's really what what we're doing. But the reason that I thought you'd be such a good candidate for coaching live in this way is your story. It really hangs together in so many ways. It's so great in so many ways and it, it would be easy to feel like, oh, I'm, I'm not that far. I got this. I could, I could start right?I can start writing. Yeah. But I hope, I hope what we're gonna show is, is really pushing yourself to answer core questions is gonna just make it so much stronger.Andrew: Absolutely.Jennie: So, um, all that being said, do you. What do you think the best way to share what you're writing with our listeners is? Do you think reading your book jacket copy feels good or do you wanna just say it out [00:05:00] loud?Andrew: Um, I feel like the book jacket copy, I. Um, that I, that I wrote doesn't quite, doesn't quite capture, I think in many ways what I think the book is going to be so Well,Jennie: and we're gonna actually getAndrew: to that. So I, and we're gonna get to that, I think. Yeah.Jennie: So why don't you just, just share what, what it is.Andrew: So, uh, the premise of the book is this happens, uh.Uh, the, the novel, it happens 20 years after the events of, uh, Bram Stoker's Dracula. Um, and so. It involves some of the same characters, and then it also involves the next generation of these characters. So these, those characters children. Um, the, uh, our protagonist is a Abriana Harker, who is the daughter of Mina Harker, who was, um, kind of the female, uh, lead in, in, in Dracula.And she was, she was bitten by Dracula in, in the original novel. [00:06:00] Um, and she is, uh, someone who is defended, um. Uh, by her, uh, by her friends and, and counterparts in, in that story, Abriana is her daughter. And Abriana is now facing a similar challenge. There are bodies that are turning up around her circle and uh, they appear to have similar injuries that Dracula's victims had 20 years ago, and some people recognize that and are.Going to begin trying to unravel the mystery. And this is all set against the backdrop of the universal suffrage movement, which is also happening in, uh, you know, 1920s London, where, where the novel is, novel is set. And so in broad strokes, that is, that is the, the, the primary premise of the book.Jennie: So the genre is horror.Gothic and I, I did some, some digging. I'm not a big reader of horror, so I did some digging into the genre to make sure that that was right. Because there [00:07:00] there's also thriller elements. There's mystery elements. Mm-hmm. There's, you know, there's other elements and it is, I always liked to, to test. Is this right?Is this right? Could it be tweaked? Could it be better? And it feels, it feels like there's really no question about the genre. Right. Do you feel thatAndrew: I, I feel that, I feel definitely, definitely feel that. And I think I, I, like gothic is, is, is a genre that I really enjoy and I want to develop some of those gothic themes in the story a little bit more than I have so far.But yes, I think gothic and, and horror is very much where, where this, where this book lives. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah. And that is something I wanna talk about for sure when we get to the inside outline. But I wanna start with, um, the second question of the blueprint is what's your point? And I know this is something you've struggled with a little bit.Yeah. Um, but so the current point that you have here is. I feel like maybe this came from me. So, [00:08:00] uh, I, it's, you can't change the world without upsetting people. The more you want to change, the more people you upset, and that's fine, but it, but it doesn't, it does, it doesn't feel like it captures. There's a real moral, philosophical debate at the center of your story.Right.Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, the, the characters are certainly, uh, in the midst of a paradigm shift, you know, there's the, there, the, the world order is changing as, uh, as suffrage is, is being opened to more and more people. Um, and times a world order like that changes. There are people who are for it and there are a lot of people who are against it.And so I think that's. That's an element in, in play here in the, in the novel. And that, and that's something that I wanted to explore. And obviously there are parallels in current times as well for, uh, for this, for this sort of change. So I think that's, I think that's, that's certainly, that's certainly part of, uh, of, of [00:09:00] the story.Yeah.Jennie: So I was, when I, when I review a blueprint, and for anybody who's, who's got one all on the page and, and you, you like it and it feels pretty good. The step is to, to really pressure test everything. So I, I read through the whole thing. I love looking at a blueprint. A blueprint as a whole rather than piece by piece.And in this particular case, it's like this. Yeah. This point feels bloodless, which is something we definitely don't want in this story. So I went back to your why and your why is really powerful and really personal and really political. Um, it's, it's fiery, it's articulate, like there's so much about your why that I.You can see my comments on the page. Mm-hmm. Not the listener, but Andrew can Right where I was going. Great. Yes. Very powerful. Awesome. You know, it's just, it's excellent. And you had some lines in there [00:10:00] about the, the monster in this story is not the vampire, but a man who is refusing to change with the times basically.And. That felt to me, given everything else you're saying about the parallels between this, the milieu of this story and the milieu we live in right now, the, the fraught. Climate, political climate. Cultural climate that felt more potent as a point. And I, I wondered what you thought about that.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I think that that is as mu that is as much a part of the, the premise as I've conceived it, as, as anything else that I've, I've said, um, you know, the, the, the.Spoiler alert, the the murders aren't being committed by, by the vampire, uh, or vampires. Uh, the murders are being committed by an old white dude who is not [00:11:00] happy with how the politics are shifting under his feet and how the world is changing around him, um, and is trying to, at all costs, prevent that from happening, even sacrificing a bit of his own humanity in, in the process.And so I think that is. Is is something that certainly resonates, but I think it yeah. Is, as you say, there's a passion, there's a blood there that in in, in the why that didn't quite make it to my point. Um,Jennie: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would suggest for the next iteration mm-hmm. To, to really push that point and.It's gonna keep changing, it's gonna keep, um, you know, getting refined as you go. But I think it's important to move it forward as you keep writing. So the, um, yeah, something that's, that's fiery and that's, um, about, ‘cause that's a, that's a, you're flipping an important trope in a. In a [00:12:00] classic novel, right?Mm-hmm. That it, it's not the vampire. So like, why that? Why, why are we flipping out? What is that showing us? What is the point of, of doing that in the story? That, so I would really play with that. Um, does that make sense? Mm-hmm.Andrew: Yes, it does. Okay. Yes, it does.Jennie: Okay, so the next thing I wanna talk about is your super, your super simple story.Mm-hmm. And. What's interesting about the super simple story is, I mean, I love everybody always. Here's me say this, who's listened to me for very long, but I love a constraint on in creativity. And this, trying to get this story in a really short space often reveals something. And what it, when it was revealing to me is, so you've got, you've got a abriana, she wants to, uh, become a doctor.Because of her mother's, [00:13:00] her mother died in childbirth with her. Um, so that's the, that's the storyline. You've got the murders that are happening and, and then you've got the universal suffragette movement, this political debate that's going on. So there's these three threads and. Even in the super simple story, it was feeling a little bit like they're disconnected.I don't think they're disconnected in your mind. I think they're disconnected on the page.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: So I wanted to just ask you to articulate that a little bit more. ‘cause you hint in the um, book jacket copy later, AA has things in common with Finn halting who's. Her uncle, the Vampire Hunter. Are you comfortable sharing what those are?Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: What those commonalities are?Andrew: Yeah, I think, I think, [00:14:00] um, uh, Abraham Von Helsing is, is a character from the original novel, um, and he helps guide the team to, uh, uh, find, track down and destroy Dracula. Um. In the world of my novel, his understanding of vampires changes as he's, as he continues to do research on them.And so he's discovered, he's discovered more about them. That will spell out a little bit more in the, uh, in the novel, but. First and foremost, and one of the, one of the primary roles he plays in the, in, in the original novel is a, as a doctor. And that's one thing that Abriana really admires about him. He becomes a bit of a, a, um, a surrogate.Parent to her with her mother dying and her, uh, her father's grief, turning into a little bit of emotional distance from, uh, from Abriana. And so von uh, van Helsing kind of fills that gap and so she associates her. I think her desire [00:15:00] to become a doctor stems from both her birth, you know, ultimately killing her mother, but also because, and, and, and wanting to prevent that from happening to other women, but also because she's seen, you know, van Helsing.Perform his, his service as a doctor. He, she's seen it in action and what it can do and wants to, and wants to, wants to emulate that. And so, and, and I think one of the, one of the things that, that I get excited about is incorporating a little bit of like historic realism into, into the novel as well. And there was in, uh, the 1920s a, a medi, the London School of Medicine for women.Um, it had it, it had been. Open for a, a decade or so. It was still a fairly new school at the time. And so that there was an, uh, a real place that she would've been able to go and get an education is something that, uh, is something that I'm, I'm excited to have part of, part of the novel and like that school wouldn't have been possible if it was not for the Women's Liberation [00:16:00] Movement, which resulted obviously in the universal.In the universal suffrage movement. And so all of that I feel, kind of ties, ties together in a way that I haven't explained very well in my super simple copy, super simple story explanation there.Jennie: So, so that's what I'm trying to get at is Adrianna is not just some random young woman. No, I mean she's, she's very clearly descended from.A, a particular, uh, family who's had a particular thing happen and you know, there several generations. So have you designed her as a protagonist using those elements of the family yet, or, or is it more kind of just convenient that she's there? Does that make sense?Andrew: I think so, [00:17:00] and I think it's probably somewhere in the middle.I think I like the idea of tying her into these characters that who have an existing history, and it then gives her a little bit of, a little bit of, uh, gravitas for the listener when they, when they start digging in that maybe they, maybe they, maybe they have read Dracula, are familiar with those characters and so, okay, this is the next, this is the next generation.But yeah, I mean, I think Abriana reflects. A lot of other things that, that aren't in, that aren't represented in the original novel. Um,Jennie: I guess what I, I guess what I'm saying is it feels, one of my concerns is it feels as if you could write this story about Adriana and not have her beat from this family.She could, she could be kind of. Anyone Gotcha. In this [00:18:00] situation? Gotcha. Does that, am I, am I missing, am I missing that? What would make, you know, let's just, um, I know there's, there's several women in the novel who have, have important roles. So I'm gonna pick a name that's not them. Let's say that, uh, there's a young woman, Catherine, you know, not connected to, um.Ben Helsing not connected to her mother, not connected to that whole thing. And same time period, same motivation. She wants to be a doctor. Maybe she had someone in her family die, and that's her motivation. You know, like suffrages, like that whole story could still play out with Catherine. Uh, am I wrong? I want you to prove me wrong.Andrew: So like, yes, it could, I feel like, I feel like one of the things I like about tying in Van Helsing is it, it presents a red herring, um, in the sense that it's like, oh, we all think. [00:19:00] That we're gonna find out vampires are responsible for all of these deaths. Um, like, I don't know, like, and I, and I can kind of slow burn the, you know, the reveal of vampires in general and, and, and how they end up not actually being the antagonists in this By, by which is So by borrowing, by borrowing his name and sharing his glory a little bit.Yeah.Jennie: Right. But back to Catherine, our, our mm-hmm. Mythical protagonist.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Same thing could happen there. Everybody thinks, oh, the vampires are back. Um, Catherine, you know, they, they keep happening around her. She's gotta figure it out. You know what I mean? So,Andrew: well, so, soJennie: isAndrew: Yeah,Jennie: no, go ahead.Andrew: The question, the question I, I think that I've been grappling a bit with too is do we exist in a world where.Is, does the novel, does the world of the novel, a place where people [00:20:00] have recognized the efforts of Van Helsing and that vampires exist? Is that, is that common knowledge in this world, or is all of that still unknown to folks?Jennie: Okay, this. Is the piece that I've been missing.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: That's exactly the piece that I've been missing.That's totally it. That, so here, this is world building. If anybody's writing anything with magic, fantasy, sci-fi, even just straight up history, and maybe it's a retelling or a re um, imagining, you often know those, those questions for sure. And especially for where for. My understanding, I, I'm, like I said, I'm not a horror reader, but I do know a little bit about Dracula, but the, it was a, a sort of science versus, um, like science played a big role in that.What [00:21:00] can we know? Mm-hmm. What can we prove? What is, what is unknowable?Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Those sorts of things. Absolutely. So that, you've gotta know that here. Mm-hmm. Has it been proved? Is it. Accepted knowledge. Is Van Helsing a hero who's locked away in his lab continuing to, you know, with funding and whatever to research his thing?Or is he some. You know, recluse who was shamed in the public eye and people think he's crazy, like that's gonna color everything. Mm-hmm. Okay. And that's gonna be, that's gonna then be the answer I'm looking for. Like, why Adriana as our protagonist and not Catherine. Right. So she's gonna have that, you imagine her going to medical school with.Those two different stories behind her, how different it's [00:22:00] gonna be when she shows up in the classroom and people know, you know, or when they know who she is.Andrew: Right? Yeah.Jennie: So there, there's a real, the reveal to the reveal to the reader about her connection and who she is and then her, her reveal to the society she lives in about.Who she is and you know, the meaning she makes from all that you know, and did, no matter what you decide about Van Helsing, she then you have to all just also decide about her. Does she agree with the prevailing wisdom? If everybody thinks he's a hero, does she think he, he is too? Or does she think he's kind of whacked and then, um, learns otherwise or, you know, like the or, or the other wayAndrew: around?Jennie: Yeah. Or the other way around. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So yeah, this is the piece that's missing is I feel like you have, and this is what I felt the second I heard you talk about your story. I'm like, oh, this could be so [00:23:00] good. Like, this is so potent, but you're like, you're missing it. You're just, it's like it's, it's like it's not landing as as solid as it should, and I think this is why.Right. I had not been able to figure it out, but. And you have, so I gotta make sure I understand the character. So a Adriana's dad is the brother of Van Helsing.Andrew: Uh, they're not related in the original, in the original novel. They're, they're, uh, they're just friends. Okay. Okay. But they're, but they're clo Okay.They're, they're close friends. And because Van Helsing ultimately saved both of their lives, uh, he is kind of a, a, a surrogate uncle. So, uncle, uncle in quotation marks. Yeah,Jennie: yeah, yeah. Uncle is Is an honorific.Andrew: An honorific, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yep.Jennie: That confused me. Okay. So I thought that there was a direct lineage there.Andrew: Right.Jennie: But there's not No,Andrew: no genetic link. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:24:00]Jennie: But a link through. Her mother a link to Van Healthing Through the mother.Andrew: Yes.Jennie: Um, and, and what happened to her. So, okay. Yeah. We have to understand his role, who he is, what he's doing in the world, what people think of him. Mm-hmm. Um, and also this is important for.Just the environment of your story, because we've got this division, political division around the suffragette movement. Is there, is there o, are there other, um, like, I wanna say mood, like what's the mood of the place where she's, this story's taking place? Is it, you know, a creeping sense of doom on many levels?Uh, is the do the vampire, like, is the fact, oh, maybe the vampires are [00:25:00] back. Does that make sense for the times? Um, like you and I are talking right now in 2026, um, during very extreme political upheaval and also during the time when there's this been this kidnapping of this prominent. Um, media personalities, family member that hasn't been solved.And there's this sense like, well of course this is happening now. Like this, you know, is there a weird, are we gonna have a, um, famous serial killer? Story unfolding in our time. Right. Like, that's what I keep thinking, right? Like there's a sense of, of course these things are going to start happening now ‘cause things are, feel so unstable and unsettled.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Is that what's going on there? [00:26:00]Andrew: I mean, I think potentially yes. I, I've, because yeah, I feel like this, it, it, it, it was an unsettled moment politically. And also a little bit medically as they as like the medical establishment is transitioning from miasma theory to germ theory. And that was kind of late, late, uh, 19th century, early 20th century.But like there's, there's kind of been a, a paradigm shift there. So I think, I feel like yeah, there does wanna be, as you were saying, kind of like this constant, creepy. Creepy feeling. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like to lean into the gothic, like I thought, like, I really want that to pervade every, every chapter, every page.I want that kind of like creeping sensation that that doom is around the corner. Um, that, thatJennie: Right. And doom for many sources. Right. Because I think that that's kind of one of your points.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Is well, what I'm going back to what [00:27:00] the point, point was. The point we're kind of, um. Leaning toward is people who review, refuse to evolve.When the world demands, it can become monsters. So the world is evolving in many different ways and probably getting the opportunity for a lot of different people to have to evolve in a lot of different ways. It's not just one way. It's not just like, oh, get on this bus, or you're missing. Get on, you know, what's the metaphor?Like you'll miss the boat if you don't get on the boat. But it feels like there's all kinds of boats one, one might miss here, right? Um, I think so. And so that's that. Yeah. Okay, so, so in terms of what to do next, I think your, your homework here is you've gotta get to know Van Haling. Yeah. And the, and the world a little bit better.So I would do some character [00:28:00] development work on, on him and what the world thinks of him and what a Brianna's stepping into the, the light by. Insisting on going to medical school does to Van Haling. Does it delight him? Does it challenge him? Does it, um, you know, what does he think of that? I think that's important.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um, to know too.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um,Andrew: a couple, a couple of things that are occurring to me. I think I had taken for granted the reader's knowledge of the events of Dracula, and I don't think I can do that. I think I need to. To develop these characters for my own, as you're saying, I, I gotta, I have to develop Van Van Hels, the Van Helsing character.I have to develop him for, for my own purposes for this novel. Um, which makes a lot of sense.Jennie: Well, that's actually a really good question. You defined your ideal reader in a way that I thought was. [00:29:00] Completely delightful. Like she was so fleshed out. She felt like a, a full on character and I was like, oh, I know that.I know that woman. I loved it. It was great. But an important piece you missed in that is you said that she enjoys books about. London, the city and maybe some horror and gothic, but what is her relationship to Dracula, your ideal reader? You need to know that.Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: My, you know, this is what's funny sometimes about being a book coach is I always say that the, the writers, the god of their own story, I can't possibly know everything that the writer knows about what they're writing about, what they've read, what they've thought, how they've lived, any of it.And, and in this particular case, I don't read. I don't read horror. I, I, I could barely tell you the, the bear outlines of Dracula if, if press, [00:30:00] um, I mean, I know the, you know, cartoon, the cartoon version. I, I, I could tell you a little more about Frankenstein only because I, against my will, watched the recent, um.Retelling.Andrew: Oh yeah. I haven't actually seen that yet.Jennie: So I say against my will because I was like, oh my gosh, this is too much for me. But um, you need to know if, so here's a perfect, let me finish my sentence. You need to know if your reader is a fan, is a reader, is a immersed in the gothic world, is gonna know all these things.Know all the tropes and know all the connections or not. And the, um, perfect example of that is, remember that book, um, pride and Prejudice and Zombies?Andrew: Yes.Jennie: So that appeal to people who love Jane Austen.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Like, you're probably not gonna read that book if you're not a Jane Austen [00:31:00] fan, but if you are a Jane Austen fan, you're, you cannot wait to get your hands on that.And. Also probably if you're a zombie horror fan, you know, you would delight in that even if you didn't understand the depths of the Jane Austen piece. But that book spoke to such a very particular audience that turned out to be a massive audience. Right, right. So, yeah,Andrew: yeah, yeah.Jennie: You know, I think you need to make a decision.Are you writing for someone like me who's, who's like, I don't know, like I think when I first read it, I was like. Who's Ben Sing? And you're like, he's the famous guy from the thing, right? So are you writing for someone like me or does your, a avatar, your ideal reader hear, you know, does she watch the movie?Does she, does she read the books? Does she gobble that stuff up?Andrew: Right? Yeah.Jennie: What, what is your instinct right now?Andrew: Singling out one or the other is going to, is going to change [00:32:00] how I write the book. Um. What is my instinct? Uh, I dunno. When I think about the character that I, that the character of the reader that I fleshed out in the blueprint, um,Jennie: yeah,Andrew: I don't think she necessarily would have read Dracula.She might be familiar with the story, but she might not have, um, uh, have read, uh, Dracula itself.Jennie: Okay. So yeah, let's get to, let's get really clear on that. Mm-hmm. Because it's gonna really change. And for those listening. The ideal reader. Oftentimes people think it's just a throwaway part of the blueprint because they kind of can just picture, you know, generally who their reader is.I mean, first of all, no part of the blueprint is the throwaway. Uh, something really important can come from any one of these. So really go back to your ideal reader. And think about them in relationship to their story. ‘cause this [00:33:00] conversation reveals how drastically you would change the writing of this book, depending on your ideal reader's relationship to the, to Dracula.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: And, and there's no right answer. Either answer's. Great. Right. So, um, so that's, I just put that on the list of, of things too, um, that you're gonna be thinking about. Um. So once you get that, so yeah, the understanding of of Van Healthy's re reputation in the universe right now is going to be the way that you bring your reader up to speed a little bit.Right? Like famous Vampire Hunter still doing his thing or, or. Famous vampire hunter, you know, shamed and, uh, not doing his thing. Um, that's, those are gonna tie [00:34:00] together,Andrew: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jennie: And cement down the world that we're coming into, um, more.Andrew: Absolutely. No, I can, I can see how that will change things.Yeah.Jennie: Okay. So, um. We're not gonna have time to dig, to dig into this yet, but I just wanna touch on it so that, um, when you're doing this work, you can be thinking about, um, thinking about this piece, but the, um, there's a cause and effect trajectory that's obviously what the inside outline is. And at some really key places in yours, you miss an opportunity to to tie in.So we always want our protagonist to have agency to be making the [00:35:00] decisions that cause things to get worse or cause them to be in a worse position or, um, and, and there's several places in your inside outline where. Things just sort of happen, which is the plot, and then she sort of happens to be there.But if you understand better these parts of her and her connection to this, uh, the not her uncle now, uh, her, this guy, uh, and her connection to what's happened with her mother and those things, then we wanna use that to push the story. To push the, so the plot has to serve the story. So the things that happen are gonna push your character in ways they don't wanna be pushed to make decisions that are gonna then push them further and, and they're gonna get deeper and deeper each time.And [00:36:00] you have a murder mystery. So each murder, we wanna feel more and more as if. She is boxing herself in by what she does. By what she thinks. By what she believes, by what she wants. And the, the CLO is gonna squeeze her to the point where she asks to make a, a big decision, you know, comes, that's the climax, comes to that like, will I, in this case, um, confront.Uh, both the murderer and her father is kind of where it all ends, so,Andrew: yeah. Yeah.Jennie: You know, it's not gonna be just like, and now we arrive at a place where she confronts the people. It's gotta be like. Gut wrenching along the way. Right,Andrew: right.Jennie: So, um, there's a lot to say there, and I made some comments on the outline, which, which you'll see [00:37:00] sort of my thoughts and thinking there, but I actually think that this conversation we've had is gonna be the solution because the, the big question I had was, is it coincidental that Adriana is.These murders are sort of following her around and people think that it, she might be responsible. Is that coincidental or is there something real there? Yeah. Do you know the answer or not?Andrew: I, I, I'm, I've been thinking about that and I think there are ways that it's not entirely coincidental. I mean, obviously she's not causing the murders, but I think, I think yes, I think there are things that she does that prompts these.That prompts these women to become targets of the murderer.Jennie: That's what I hoped you were gonna say. Yeah, because that's what's gonna, that's like, it's, I think this was on the page and maybe you didn't realize it, but. [00:38:00] Being friends with Adriana is a little dangerous,right?Andrew: Yes. Yes. I think that could be, that could definitely be part of the part, part of the, part of the theme there. Yeah.Jennie: So that, that shouldn't, that shouldn't be coincidental. Well, and this is what's so, so great about the blueprint and showing it to a critique partner or a writing group or an editor or a book coach, is.Somebody else can say, do you see that you're doing this thing that's actually really cool? Or do you, do you see that you're not doing this? Like it's things are just revealed. So,Andrew: yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.Jennie: So let's just wrap this up. Your next iteration, you're gonna work on sharpening your point. You're gonna work on sharpening the super simple story so that the Dracula connection is clear.Dracula connection to your [00:39:00] protagonist is, is more clear and you're gonna under in order to do that. You're gonna understand then Helsing, the world that we live in and what his relationship of that world is 20 years after Dracula. What, what is happening with him? What is happening with the world? And and that's gonna help inform the connection between your.Protagonist in these things. And then I think you already answered the ideal reader, but just make sure that you're comfortable with that, that she's not a super fan. This is not a insider. Um, folks who know and love and read Dracula, it's, it's more someone like me. He was a little clueless. And then if you have time to dig into.How that all plays out in the cause and effect of the inside outline. That's, that's where I would go. [00:40:00] So it's, um, I had an agent, my first agent, way back in the day, used to say, run it through the typewriter one more time because we were actually writing on typewriter. Yeah. Right. Back in the day. And, uh, that's kind of what I feel, you know, with these ideas in mind, like, run it all through one more time and let, let it all flow through One more time.Um, and we'll see where it goes.Andrew: Excellent. No, this sounds good. This is, this is some good homework. I'm looking forward to, to digging into this now.Jennie: I know. I can't wait to see too, and I hope our listeners have enjoyed, uh, going along on this conversation and gotten some inspiration for what, how to pressure test your own, uh, blueprint.And if you're not doing the blueprint. Uh, also fine, but pressure test what you're writing. Uh, this is just a tool for doing that, but there's this kind of questioning and making sure that things are not [00:41:00] assumed. That's, that's the key, right? It's that you, you sort of make these assumptions, but we have to articulate them and pin them down so that we can use them to make a much better story.Well, thank you Andrew. Really thank you for being willing to, uh, expose yourself in this way. Come out from behind the mic, uh, share your journey. It's not easy to do that, and I appreciate it.Andrew: Well, it's, it's fun. Thank you for pushing me outside my comfort zone. Uh, I've really enjoyed this.Jennie: I have too. So, uh, for our list.Thanks for joining in. Now let's get back to work.Outro: The hashtag am writing podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone [00:42:00] deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Story of the Week (DR):WarSaudi Aramco CEO issues stark warning: Iran war could bring ‘catastrophic' shock to global oilPrediction markets face questions on Iran war bets, from regime change to nuclear detonationThe Maduro Capture (Jan 2026): Just hours before the U.S. captured Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro, a new Polymarket account wagered $30,000 on his removalIsraeli Military Indictments (Feb 2026): At least two individuals in the Israeli defense forces were reportedly indicted for using classified intelligence to place winning bets on the specific dates of military strikes in IranNational Security Risk: A recent report by Responsible Statecraft warns that officials with the power to influence military timing could alter operations to maximize their payout The Atlantic Council recently warned that foreign adversaries can "weaponize the odds" by dumping money into a thinly traded market to create a false narrative that a country is about to collapse, potentially triggering a real-world panic or bank run.Kalshi (private)1/13/25: Kalshi names Donald Trump Jr. as strategic advisorPolymarket (college dropout Shayne Coplan)8/26/25: Kalshi Advisor Donald Trump Jr. Joins Rival Polymarket BoardTrump Jr.'s 1789 Capital is making an eight-figure investment in the controversial prediction-market company.AI JobsAnthropic just mapped out which jobs AI could potentially replace. A ‘Great Recession for white-collar workers' is absolutely possibleThe most AI-exposed group is 16 percentage points more likely to be female, earns 47% more on average, and is nearly four times as likely to hold a graduate degree compared to the least exposed group.Sam Altman admits AI is killing the labor-capital balance—and says nobody knows what to do about itOracle expected to slash thousands of jobs as massive AI spending creates financial cash crisisLayoffs are feeling awfully tempting for a lot of companies right nowCEOs are using one number in the AI age to decide how many people they still needRevenue per employeePatreon's CEO says AI will be a 'bloodbath for the world's creative people' unless tech companies pay upAtlassian slashes 10% of workforce to 'self-fund' investments in AI and enterprise salesThe unexpected 92,000 drop in payrolls is a clue we might be reading the AI jobs narrative all wrongWorker painAI Is Forcing Employees to Work Harder Than EverAI Job Loss Is Breaking the Psyche of Workers, Psychiatrist Warns‘AI brain fry' is real — and it's making workers more exhausted, not more productive, new study findsEconomist Dambisa Moyo says CEOs must play a role in sustaining the consumer class as AI eliminates jobsThis could only happen if we weren't controlled by the TechBro Dropout GangCII‘Not a goodbye…': What Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen told employees after announcing decision to step downShantanu Narayen, CEO of Adobe for 18 years, will step down once a successor is appointed, while continuing as board chairman.Google Hands Sundar Pichai $692M Package Tied to AI BetsPackage uniquely ties executive pay to Waymo autonomous vehicle and Wing drone delivery venture performanceCompensation structure sets precedent for linking CEO pay to specific AI business unit success rather than overall company metricsSo now CEOs can either game their bonus by obsessively focusing on one thing or doom the rest of the company by obsessively focusing on one thing or bothAs You Sow Files Lawsuit Challenging Chubb's Refusal to Put Shareholder Proposal Addressing Climate-Driven Insurance Crisis on Company ProxyThe proposal asks shareholders to vote on whether Chubb should commission a report assessing whether pursuing subrogation claims against parties responsible for climate change could reduce losses, benefit shareholders, and help preserve affordable homeowners insurance.This lawsuit follows the SEC's decision to abandon its longstanding role as a neutral arbiter in the shareholder proposal process. In November 2025, the SEC announced that it would no longer review corporate no-action requests under Rule 14a-8, effectively forcing these matters into court—an expensive and lengthy process.Sen. Elizabeth Warren Slams SEC As 'Lap Dog For Trump's Billionaire Buddies' After It Dismisses Another Crypto Case"The SEC should not be a lap dog for Trump's billionaire buddies"Live Nation, Ticketmaster's Owner, Settles Antitrust Case With Justice DeptThat was fastLive Nation Entertainment board includes Trump administration bro Richard Grenell 2 of 12 are womenGrenell is somehow the president of the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts despite no background in anything resembling “the Arts.”He replaced a woman, Deborah Rutter. The chair is President Trump. Of course. And the board now is down to only one woman: 2 years ago it was 60% female.Glass Lewis recommends voting against Starbucks director over ‘board-level E&S oversight'New York State Comptroller, New York City Comptroller, SOC Investment Group, Canadian responsible investment association SHARE, Merseyside Pension Fund, and Trillium oppose the re-election of lead independent director Jørgen Vig Knudstorp, as well as Beth Ford, chair of Starbucks' Nominating and Corporate Governance (NCG) committee.Ford was chair of the EPCI committee and now leads the NCG committee, which assumed some of the responsibilities of the EPCI when it was disbanded.In its benchmark policy proxy paper, Glass Lewis has recommended investors vote against Ford.Goodliest of the Week (MM/DR):DR:Uber rolls out women-only option in the USDR: CEOs of failed banks would have to surrender pay under bipartisan planSenate legislation would mandate “clawbacks” of executive pay, three years after the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank.MM: 24 states, Nintendo sue Trump over tariffs as refund fight growsCostco CEO Ron Vachris Pledges to Return Tariff Refunds to ShoppersMM: Andrew Yang says we should stop taxing workers — and start taxing AIAssholiest of the Week (MM):War on Women: part 1Alex KarpPalantir CEO Makes Shocking Confession on Disrupting Democratic PowerPalantir CEO Alex Karp thinks his AI technology will lessen the power of “highly educated, often female voters, who vote mostly Democrat” while increasing the power of working-class men.“This technology disrupts humanities-trained—largely Democratic—voters, and makes their economic power less. And increases the economic power of vocationally trained, working-class, often male, working-class voters,” Karp said in a CNBC interview Thursday. “And so these disruptions are gonna disrupt every aspect of our society. And to make this work, we have to come to an agreement of what it is we're going to do with the technology; how are we gonna explain to people who are likely gonna have less good, and less interesting jobs.”To Alexandra Schiff, ex WSJ reporter and daughter of Tom Wolfe, who wrote a semi adoring Silicon Valley book in 2017 holding Peter Thiel as a god (and now sits on this board with Thiel), and to Lauren Friedman Stat, who only seems to post Palantir sizzle reels and as best I can tell is married to a “David Stat” who is the name of a “Director” (not on the board?) of Palantir who is in a Form 4 for selling stock:What the fuck are you doing. Do you read what this dude says? Are you that cucked to the tech bro elite you can't stop and say, “Hey, Alex, maybe tone down the suggestion you're trying to stop female Democrats from voting?”War on Women: part 2Glass Lewis recommends voting against Starbucks director over ‘board-level E&S oversight'Because Starbucks disbanded the Environmental, Partner and Community Impact committee of the board - launched in 2023, dissolved in November 2025Committee launched after majority supported SHP to focus on labor issuesJorgen Knudstorp and Daniel Servitje, the OTHER committee members, somehow escape entirelyKnudstorp is the Lead independent director, Niccol is the CEO and chair of the board (yes, chair)But instead of targeting Niccol or even Knudstorp, Glass Lewis targeted the female chair of the committee… ONLYIf the CEO gets to be chair - doesn't the CEO have to take responsibility for board overall? If you have an LID, are they accountable?? Why would the chair of a committee be target without the chair of the board or LID? Can a committee chair dissolve their own committee??Cracker Barrel - the scapegoat was the person of color who had “diversity” in their job description, not the longest tenured director who was also chair of the board but was a white guy - and Glass Lewis suggested voting out the brown dudeWar on Women: part 3 speed roundDOGE, DEI, and climate changeBlack women were disproportionately impacted by DOGE cuts. A year later, they're rebuilding careers for themselves and each otherI Watched 6 Hours of DOGE Bro Testimony. Here's What They Had to Say For ThemselvesOver the course of a six hour long or so deposition, Justin Fox, a former investment banker turned DOGE bro, refused to define what he believes counts as DEI; admitted he used ChatGPT to scan government contracts for terms such as “Black” and “homosexual” but not “white” or “caucasian;” and said that one of the grants he helped slash was “not for the benefit of humankind” before walking that claim back.Why ‘bringing your whole self to work' is a trap, especially for womenFormer Goldman Sachs CEO says DEI programs are ‘counterproductive,' arguing ‘you're branding the people in that program'Climate change: Women face worst impacts as funding support falls shortIn 2025, a UN women report warned that under a worst-case climate scenario, up to 158.3 million more women and girls may live in extreme poverty globally as a result of climate change by 2050Headliniest of the WeekDR: Shell CEO's Pay Jumps 60% Despite Profit Drop and Fatal AccidentsDR: Jack Dorsey Defends Wearing “Love” Hat While Firing 4,000 Employees in Pivot to AI: "I wanted to approach the whole situation with love."MM: Ozempic mania has even Olive Garden and The Cheesecake Factory cutting back on portion sizesMM: Cracker Barrel sales, traffic continue to slump months after failed rebrandWho Won the Week?DR: National Museum of the American Indian and the coffee at CII, was actually pretty not grossMM: The Council for Institutional Investors Spring Conference, who got to witness Proxy Countdown livePredictionsDR: CII loses our phone numberMM: The women start the uprising now:

“Breaking the Glass Ceiling: Julia Carreon’s Fight Against Corporate Gaslighting” In this episode, Frazer Rice sits down with Julia Carreon to explore her recent high-profile litigation against a major financial institution and her powerful insights on women in leadership, corporate culture, and overcoming systemic barriers. YOUTUBE https://youtu.be/e05k7SVQ2xI We discuss: Julia's experience with workplace gaslighting and her litigation journey with Wells Fargo The importance of transparency, accountability, and protecting yourself in corporate environments How societal and corporate cultures disadvantage women, especially around motherhood and leadership The themes and motivations behind Julia's book, Walking on Broken Glass Practical strategies women can use to build political capital and safeguard their careers The significance of external networks and understanding your personal strengths The evolving landscape of equity, ownership, and governance in corporations How to proactively prepare for and respond to systemic workplace challenges SPOTIFY https://open.spotify.com/episode/5c546gs6Qctx4bGOvalgXj?si=1dDyJxnwSyu4tnhXxpzVxg Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction: Julia's litigation and book overview 02:03 – Gaslighting in corporate culture and early experiences 04:14 – Dealing with systemic backstage politics and fighting for justice 05:10 – Motivations for writing Walking on Broken Glass 08:08 – Diagnosing workplace culture and gender dynamics 09:33 – The weaponized HR department and accountability 11:38 – Protecting yourself: cultural awareness and bias 13:12 – Demographics, gender disparities, and moving forward 15:12 – Institutional misogyny and societal shifts 16:05 – Motherhood, work-life balance, and corporate support 18:28 – Questions of corporate culture change post-COVID 22:21 – The fear factor and change in workplace loyalty 27:12 – Tactical career strategies and building political capital 28:15 – Always Be Executing (ABE) and tracking success 30:53 – The ownership mentality and equity's role in career resilience 34:45 – Building internal and external networks for support 36:49 – Understanding personal aptitudes through testing and reflection 40:12 – Leveraging political capital and seizing opportunities 43:31 – How to follow Julia and stay updated on her journey Transcript Frazer Rice (00:01.004)Welcome aboard, Julia. Julia (00:03.32)Thanks for having me. Frazer Rice (00:04.652)Well, as I said in the opening, the concept of gaslighting in the boardroom is something that certainly isn’t new, but it doesn’t make it any more comfortable for the people who deal with it on a day-to-day basis or as part of their career. And you’re in the midst of litigation right now with a major financial services company. Maybe talk a little bit about what’s going on there. Julia (00:24.801)Yeah, so I am in a high profile lawsuit with my former employer. I would say this is not a path that anyone chooses on purpose. In my particular case, Frazer, I spent 20 years at Wells Fargo, 15 of which were pretty spectacular. I have come to realize almost maybe fairy tale like in terms of my experience. I want to talk about some of the things later on that made it a fairy tale. So yeah, I wouldn’t have chosen this. I did not see the culture at my former employer coming for me. I was blindsided by it and it got ugly quickly. One of the things that I think I am doing here. Or at least trying to do is not be shy about it. Not hide from it. Try to show women a different way for how to deal with these situations. Because I have very strong feelings about the fact. With the rollback of DEI and the current administration’s point of view on women, that we’re going backwards. If women don’t start fighting for ourselves in a more public way and without fear, then I don’t know where we’re going to be in the next five to 10 years. I am soldiering on and it’s not easy to your point. But it is what it is and it’s a fight that I believe is worthy. Frazer Rice (02:03.608)So it’s a daunting task taking on a big bank. Big financial services firm, whether it’s in this situation or frankly any. It’s just these well-resourced big behemoths. What has been the experience been like so far? As far as gathering information? Of getting the walls built that you need to in order to live your life while you go through this conflict with this bank? Julia (02:29.822)It’s hat that is the million dollar question. Right? I will say that in my case i got really fortunate and came across a quote. It’s going to sound really strange. But i came across a quote that said fear is fake and danger is real but fear is fake. I believe that the patriarchy wants women to be afraid. So it tells us these bad things are going to happen if you take on a big firm like this. It is grueling. The days are long sometimes. But once I internalize the reality that it is all fake in terms of all of the bad things that you think could happen really can’t happen. Worst case scenario, there’s nothing Like I’m not going to die. They’re not going to, you know, take away my family. Like all of these things, right? We tell ourselves that it could get really nasty. And in my case, I have to stay really grounded in the fact that what I’m doing is worthy. We tried my lawyer and I tried for 14 months to come to a different answer. And so in a way, not just telling myself fear is fake. But in another way, I kind of feel like it’s my destiny. Because, I just want to say this real quick, I had 20 years at a place that was not toxic. And so I know what good looks like, and this is not good. So in that way, I really feel like it’s my destiny. And so that’s what you do, and you have to have a good support network. I have a great husband, so that really helps. Frazer Rice (04:14.21)The, as I’ve told people, sometimes doing the right thing or going after something that upholds justice. It can be expensive and hard. I give you kudos for standing up. Not only for yourself, but others who are going through a difficult situation. Where you’ve had a significant wrong done to you. You’ve written a book about this experience as well. We can take some time to think, to talk about what the book tries to do. First of all, writing one in tandem with the process here, I think is a bit unusual. Some people do it after the fact. To go through a catharsis after going through a difficult process. Talk about first the why of the book.thhen we’ll talk a little bit about what you talk about in it. Julia (05:17.241)The book is called Walking on Broken Glass: Navigating the Aftermath of the Glass Ceiling.” It was co-written with a fabulous woman named Shannon Nutter. I hope people follow on LinkedIn. The book is not squarely about what happened to me the book came together. With Shannon and I meeting on LinkedIn. Then discovering that we had a lot of the same shared experiences as we are Gen X. in hindsight. Our generation has had the opportunity to have the most benefit of the Gloria Steinem Women’s Movement. Think about the fact that we got the advantage of the birth control and all of the DEI efforts that have been in the last 15, 20 years. And we really felt like there was still a long way to go. Then all of that is starting to go backwards. So last year when we met or the year before, we’re like, my God, the idea that we got the best of the best is shocking to us. And so what are we going to do about it? We really wanted the book to speak to women of all ages in their career. But it was written from a lens of two then 53 year old women who had seen a lot. We wanted to give the book as a love letter or a gift to our 35 year old self. To say, this is what we should have or wish we had known 20 years ago. Because we would have done things differently if we had really faced kind of what the challenges were that women are facing at work. In a real way right not in a way that sugarcoats it or pretends to throw it under the rug. And or always makes it the woman’s fault like the woman always has to be changing and evolving in order to adapt to the systems and i you know it’s exhausting right so the book was written for that reason and it does tap into a lot of the things that we both experienced. Julia (07:35.17)But it isn’t a kind of a personal journal of what happened to me with my former employer. Frazer Rice (07:39.82)Right, one of the things that I found useful about the book is you divided it into three sections. I think it brings us sort of clarity into what you’re trying to achieve here. The first one is just diagnosing the situation that you’re in. Maybe talk a little bit about that. Part one the understanding of your surroundings. What’s happening around you. The conditions that women are facing as they embark on these big situations in the workplace. Julia (08:08.982)Yeah. So the first part of the book does give a primer on kind of the history of feminism and how did we get here and what are some of the big open questions that are still left to answer. We also want to set the stage that makes it very clear that women are accountable for our actions in the workplace. Like this is not in any way a book that seeks to make someone who’s failing feel good about the fact that they’re failing, right? Shannon and I both reached really high levels of corporate success at major global firm. There is a lot of work to do. So we really try to dimension how, what are some effective ways for you to approach that work? What are some of the pitfalls and how are some of the ways that you can handle that? In a way that’s kind of clear-eyed, but never about putting the blame or the onus on the company. And if you don’t mind, I want to say something about that because it relates to my lawsuit. One of the things that I’ve heard criticisms about is that people on social media often I saw when I kind of scanned the landscape of it recently are, this woman is naive. She thinks. HR is her friend because one of the things that I have sued my former employer for is a weaponized HR department and I want to get very clear. mean, Frazer, you don’t manage hundreds of people in 13 states like I did for a very long time successfully innovating, having great client experience team scores and having great employee team scores, right? If you believe HR is your friend. So that’s not what i’m trying to say what i’m trying to say in my lawsuit is. HR shouldn’t be picking off people for political reasons either. We are saying all the way along there is shared accountability between the employer and the employee. That’s really important. I think that you know one of the backlash is going too far field here. Julia (10:27.401)We went so far politically correct on some things that some employees do show up to work and think that they just need things handed to them. And I do think that that was part of the backlash, right? So I just am always striving for balance. I think we should all be always striving for balance. Frazer Rice (10:45.13)One of the concepts too, I think in the book that I sort of grabbed onto and enjoyed was the idea of taking steps to protect yourself. You’re dealing with a lot of different asymmetries when you work for a big company. You’re dealing with information asymmetry, you’re dealing with political asymmetry, you’re dealing with resource asymmetry. Sometimes you’re even dealing with just… Accountability asymmetry in terms of, you some people get free passes at other times people are judged on things or unfairly judged on different criteria that just don’t make a lot of sense. If we step back for a second and for people who are trying to understand, I’ll put it in quotes, how the world works and how to how to be aware of one’s and to protect yourself, what would be the first couple of things that you would tell people to think about on that back? Julia (11:38.471)The number one thing is I would be very aware of the kind of culture that you’re operating in. And it’s very easy to take for granted what a culture really is, what your own personal bias and history is, and then how is it that you are fitting. into that culture with your own shared history. So I love to be candid, right? And provocative about my own situation. If I could do something different, I would be very aware of what my biases were going into Citi with 20 years of being at a place where It was a really fair game, but probably because I had a lot of political capital and I grew up there. So I understood it. But I went into that place thinking that I was a fancy managing director, that obviously I was hired to be a change maker. I can do a lot of great things. And I was, you know, doing my thing, not realizing that I was swimming in a different lake and that lake was filled. with a lot of different kinds of wildlife that I was unprepared for. So, I mean, that’s really important. Frazer Rice (13:12.398)As we talk a little bit about some sort of bullet questions as far as how your experience has gone, the demographics of the workplace are different and changing. On one hand, college graduates are now majority women or higher in just about every college situation. Yet institutions like the CFP, the women make up… Believe the number is somewhere in the 24 % range. So you have this weird dichotomy of more women entering the workplace, but not in the numbers necessarily that would indicate that they are in places to make as much change as they would like. They are still in the vast minority in terms of boards of directors and executive positions at almost every Fortune 500 company that I can think of. As we chart a path forward where, let’s call it merit. Julia (13:58.813)Mm-hmm. Frazer Rice (14:04.494)presides over sort of misogyny and I guess I would call it sort of political gamesmanship. How do you think about that in terms of advice for people entering the workforce? Julia (14:16.461)Yeah, look, so nobody gets to say that women aren’t in the pipeline, right? I mean, that just, doesn’t hold up, especially at the more junior levels, right, of entering the workforce after college. What starts to happen is that it starts to go downhill as you get higher and higher up into hierarchy. And I believe that there is a mismatch between women who want to work and do the right thing. And we’re going to talk about this. Then what does it mean to also then become a mother and give birth and have to manage all of that? And then coming up against institutional misogyny. Obviously my perspective in the last 18 months has changed about the degree to which institutional misogyny exists. Because I had a fairy tale experience before I was able to be willfully blind about the realities. so a really direct way of answering your question is that our book is seeking to hit women in the face with the realities of this because I don’t think we’re gonna change it overnight, right? And it is so entrenched, it’s getting worse and it will get worse. Before it gets better, but I do believe that it will get better eventually because the old system that’s, know, aging out, baby boomers are aging out. Like I think that there’s going to be cracks in that. And then there would be a tsunami of change. But right now the old guard is hanging on and, we are going backwards. And so we just have to be realistic about what it requires to go forward. And we talk about what that is. Frazer Rice (16:05.58)One of the things, right, and so let’s touch back on the motherhood issue, is, that is biology. And so women who go that route and have kids. Which is frankly one of the big precepts in society. Unfortunately. n some ways takes you out of the normal trajectory of a corporate path, just from a time perspective. Certainly, the balance of work that happens at the household level. Where that ends up alling usually, creates a stress that is not well understood or received at the corporate level. What are your thoughts on that front? As far as charting a path that recognizes that reality and at the same time doesn’t put upon going the other direction necessarily in terms of favoring one outcome or the other. Julia (17:02.019)I know a lot of women who did not have children because they felt like that it would, it would harm their career. And, um, certainly it’s a personal issue and there’s no judgment from me. I don’t think I would have had children if I hadn’t met my husband. He was willing to do 50 % of the workload and he has, and, always has probably does maybe more than 50. It is a very deeply personal issue. What I have strong feelings about the fact that companies who lean in to, don’t expect the woman to lean in, but the company leans in to supporting pregnant women, have higher loyalty scores. They have better team member satisfaction. They get a lot from those women that they have supported. This is a crazy story, Frazer. I was pregnant and or just coming back from maternity leave all three times I got major promotions at Wells. I mean, think about that. And I now, because I lived my life kind of in a vacuum for a long time, I didn’t realize that this wasn’t happening to other people, right? So look at me now. I am 25 years from when I got hired, still saying that Wells is a great company. because of my own personal experience. And they got a lot out of me, but I gave a lot back. So to me, supporting women who are pregnant doesn’t have to be a zero sum game. Yet somehow that is the narrative. And I would love to ask you why that is. Like, I mean, what has happened to corporate culture that this is such a pervasive issue when If you were to scan a lot of my Gen X friends, we did not have the same experience. Frazer Rice (19:04.147)I mean, from my perspective, I don’t know. I think that I blame some of this a little bit on the COVID blip in the sense that managers of all types just have no idea where to go as far as how to treat people fairly, either from a work from home experience or how that reconciles with… women in particular who are having careers and families in addition to what’s going on with other folks like the men in the world. My short answer is I don’t know. The longer answer is that I think between the shorter news cycle, social media, work from home, there are a lot of different change agents out there that have taken the focus off of. maybe the issues that worth talking about right now. And as a managerial class, especially as millennials are taking up the mantle on that front, they’re either forgetting about this particular issue and understanding the importance that it has, or they are just so overwhelmed by change at this point and self-preservation that it’s just an area where they’re triaging the different issues that they can deal with. Julia (20:22.492)Do you do you at all think that it is a problem of losing common sense and like letting rigid ideology take over from common sense. I certainly was benefited from working from home for most of my career, right? So it’s fascinating. Frazer Rice (20:46.061)Common sense isn’t common. And depending on the institution that you’re dealing with, work from home is either an excellent tool or a cover to hide under if you’re a mediocre performer. If you’re a manager out of sight, out of mind is a difficult place to be. I think that we’re I think everyone is reconciling to the relative absence of work and sort of acclimating to Zoom phone calls and things like that. And that gets you then away from taking care of the real issues, which is to make sure that the company’s doing right, the employees are doing right by the company, and at the same time that people are being treated fairly, because I think when people are so disparate, it just becomes a real management challenge. What we’re talking about as far as making sure that women are treated fairly in the workplace, Combine that with, I would say, message confusion that occurs in social media, where some loud voices may not be the right voices to be taking up this mantle, versus some of the quieter, stable people who are really the exemplars that we’d really like to point to. Sometimes that gets mixed. And I think the brew, if you stir it together, I think is created. Maybe if we think that there was progress since the 70s on through the 80s, 90s, 2000s for fairness and women progressing within the corporate ladder nicely, I think this the COVID blip has been a bit of a toe stub on that front. That’s an opinion, extremely uninformed, but more of an observation. Julia (22:35.713)No, no, but well, listen, I just I love it because I do want to unpack it just a little bit. It’s what’s fascinating to me is that I negotiated 15 years before covid to work remote and then my boss knowing that I had to be on the road three to four weeks a month regardless was like, I’d rather you be happy where you live because you’re to be on the road regardless. So I got to work from home and then during COVID when they tried to bring everybody back, they’re like, well, you can’t be the only exception. And I’m like, okay, I have been an exception for 15 years. So that’s where I go back to, know, where is this right balance? did, I mean, COVID is as good a reason as any that it’s things are upside down. I mean, really it’s a great theory. Frazer Rice (23:22.671)Well, it also bespeaks different corporations have different cultures and certainly some people are worried about other things than others. Muriel Siebert, who I think is an amazing example of someone who took a look at Wall Street and said, look, I refuse to be held back by anything here. She started her own company and to call it a company is to not give it the respect it’s due. She’s a major absolute force in Wall Street and one of the real legends. To me, entrepreneurism is one way through this. to create the company that you want to work in is, in some ways, to me, one of the solutions for people who are having difficulty in a corporate environment that they’re in right now. Whether they’re able to be the change agent within, which is often hard at a big, you know, bulky company that turns with the agility of a battleship as opposed to being nimble in doing things or going out and starting on their own, which involves its own risks. That to me is one of the solutions. But again, not without risk, not easy by any stretch. Where did that fit into your mindset as you were thinking about this? Julia (24:37.16)Well, so, so she is an icon, not just because of what she was able to accomplish, but she also did it, I think, without a college degree. And she did it. And this is important. She did it fearlessly. And what I would love to go back in time and have a conversation with her about where did she tap into that fearlessness? And you will start to see. Frazer Rice (24:48.665)Mm-hmm. Julia (25:06.77)On my own social media, am trying to tap into that whole mindset of women need to lose fear. I’ve already talked about it, but here’s what’s important to know, right? By 2030 in the US alone, women will control $34 trillion of investable assets. I believe that that is when you start seeing the game change. Look at how Mackenzie Scott is giving without glory. I posted that in a remark that’s gone semi-viral on LinkedIn. Like she is giving without glory. She wants to give, she wants to be anonymous almost about it, and she’s giving without handcuffs. And what is she giving to? She’s giving to communities, she’s giving to schools, she’s giving to healthcare. I mean, it gives me goosebumps every single time. And so I feel like women When we start to control more, we’ll start giving in, Alice Walton is the same way, giving in a different way to change society in a more meaningful way at scale. And Muriel was a pioneer in that regard. And she is someone I think we need the next generation to know about. because she was so fearless and it’s an inspiration. But you and i both know that all kinds of things that women have accomplished are never spoken about in the same way that they are about man and about men. I do think that that’s one of the great things about some of we can go into social media some of the social media change that we see happening with alpha female and all of these great accounts that are just starting to say, know what ladies, we don’t have to buy into the patriarchy. We can do it our own way. And so I think we will finally see change, but I wanna be very clear, Frazer, it’s going to get worse before it gets better. Frazer Rice (27:12.195)Got it. So for people who are in a corporate structure, corporate environment, aren’t ready to make the leap to starting their own business, which is obviously a difficult decision, but when you’re in there, what are the things tactically that one can do to prepare, not only prepare themselves, but protect themselves against these forces that are out there? One of the thoughts I had is making sure that in the job description that you’re able to point to numerical or formulaic successes so that if a narrative is being built against you, you can point to dollars created or jobs saved or metrics that in the boardroom. Not only just qualitative successes, but also quantitative ones that makes it difficult for people to ignore you from a pure dollar perspective. Things like that, what pops up in your mind? That you would tell people to think about in terms of art directing their career. Julia (28:15.023)Yeah, well, the number one thing that I always say, and I’m kind of, it’s kind of a legend for it. So it’s ABE and it stands for Always Be Executing. And when I look back and see how successful I was in a corporate setting, of course, in my case, it was that I had a great boss and a great mentor and sponsor in him. But actually, I was always focused on executing and doing it in a way that is collaborative so that you don’t have the knives coming for you from every direction. think a lot of people who the more successful that you get in your career, you think, I’m fabulous because I’m fabulous. No. You need a mindset of I’m fabulous because I am creating a team around me, no matter who I am, even if I’m not the boss, to protect each other and help each other and lift each other up. if you are always executing and you hit on it, right, as a woman, you should always be keeping track of your metrics in a way that is tangible and defensible. But you also should never take for granted the fact that no matter how senior you are, you need to be getting something done. And I do think that it is a big mistake for people to get high on their own supply and forget that. And then, and then the sharks will come for you. So always do something. And this is just a final thing, cause I have lots of people that I mentor. They’re like, just name one thing. I’m going to give you one thing. Send meeting notes. If you go to a meeting, and everybody’s on a call, 15 people are on a call. If you’re the one who sends meeting notes and this is a hot button, right? For women, they’re like, well, I’m not the secretary. I don’t wanna take me. You know what? Put your ego, park it in a parking lot and send meeting notes. You would be shocked how much goodwill and how effective you’re perceived when those notes, like say a project is going downhill and somebody goes, but. Julia (30:30.157)Such and so committed to this and you’re like, those meeting notes were written by Julia Carrion. Nobody has to do that. But corporations get unwieldy. lot of churn happens. A lot of stuff doesn’t get done in a day. If you can demonstrate that you are someone who is acting in good faith and doing small things to keep the needle moving, somebody in senior management is going to notice that, I promise. Frazer Rice (30:53.763)The other thing I sort of, and this doesn’t just go for women, this is for people generally, is the ownership mentality and the move toward equity, and by equity I mean stock equity, where the mindset to me shifts when you move from sort of salary and bonus to equity in the firm. And that subtle shift suddenly puts you in a different position in terms of sitting at the same table as someone who is, let’s call it quote unquote, making the decisions. When you’re there and your ownership of the firm, however small it is, is rendered unimportant. First of all, that tells you to go. Second of all, I just feel like the people who exist on that plane bring up different things and then are thought of differently. Does that track with your experience? Julia (31:48.819)It does, but I think that this goes to kind of how is the corporate world changing and then how does that impact employees? So, and where I’m going with this is when I was at Wells, my compensation was a third, a third, a third. So it was a third cash, a third cash bonus and a third in stock. Do you want to know what’s going on? And I don’t know if you know what’s happened on Wall Street. Every single major bank is moving to you only get a quarter in equity and the rest of it is cash. So I think that the onus to here is on corporations to be thinking about how they’re treating employees. And to your point, what, what does that mean when you show up and how vested are you in the option? Just real quick, I want to give a shout out to Maureen Clough. I don’t know if you follow her, she just yesterday did an amazing six minute post on why companies are losing loyalty from employees. so like, again, this goes back to is everybody backsliding right now because these corporations have to realize that in order to keep good talent, you want them to have a stake in the game, but that’s winnowing, I think. Frazer Rice (33:11.819)I know. I agree. Frankly you know to me at the larger institutions that aren’t willing to sort of play ball as far as involving people in the ownership that’s a signal and when it’s a signal then you know if you’re good at your job and you bring things to bear you know there are other there are other places out there. I think those places that value you want you around and they want you to be able to participate and how the broader governance of the company works. It’s a lot like how Goldman Sachs was back when it was in the partnership days. Everyone who was a partner there understood how everything else was working and ultimately that meant that, I don’t know, I feel like Goldman still does well now, but it’s a different climate, different firm where you’re completely involved in everything else and therefore the information is out there and… it’s something that you’re not blindsided as much by what’s happening in other divisions within your firm. Julia (34:15.472)Yeah, totally agree. Frazer Rice (34:16.911)One other thought that as we were sort of squiring through this was the idea that it’s important to have information sources or networks both within your company that are outside of your reporting line, but also information networks and support outside your company. I call it sort of the kitchen cabinet of people who are similarly situated or in different spots so that you have context into which to sort of find out what your what you’re up against both inside the company and outside of it. Is that something that makes sense to you or is it something that was lacking in your current situation? How did you think about that? Julia (34:57.906)Hmm. I love that because in 2017, I took stock of the fact that I had become too comfortable in my lane and I was seeing that my influence at Wells was waning for whatever reason. And so I started blogging on LinkedIn in 2017. Because of a conversation with a Harvard sociologist that I write a lot about. Fscinating guy who predicted the current turmoil 10 years, almost 10 years ago. And so I started networking outside and I could not agree with you more that you need to be building your networks, not just inside. That goes without saying, right? Like I had a great career partly because I was a boss at gaining political capital at Wells all the time, right? Giving goodwill and getting it back but outside is critical. during our book, what we found out is, that women are more likely to put that aside. Because we feel like we’ve got too many other things going on, work, know, kids, all of the pressures, trying not to, you know, have a nervous breakdown on any given day, trying to stay fit, dealing with menopause. Which of course is a whole other thing that is a whole other bag of tricks. And so we don’t do it as much and it hurts us. So I absolutely think being deliberate about an external network is essential. When women ask me how to do that, I say to commit to a certain number of hours, half an hour to two hour, whatever you can give a week to doing it deliberately. I wish I had done that earlier in my career for sure. So it’s great advice. Frazer Rice (36:49.865)Along that line, I’m a big believer in being aware of your surroundings. In a sense aware of yourself and what your skills. Things that you’re annoyed are at are and what you’re good at and what you’re not good at. Did you take any tests or anything to understand what your aptitudes were or what you were interested in or more importantly not interested in or how you interact with other people personality wise and Is that something that resonates with you? sort of am a big sports fan. Dan Quinn, who’s the Washington commander coach. He got fired from the Falcons. He did a real deep soul searching and went in and got tested on a whole bunch of different things and where he came up short, where he was really good. And that allowed him to get hired again and to have at least some initial success with the team and hopefully going forward from my rooting perspective. But where does that fit into your analysis for people? Julia (37:50.351)Did somebody set that question up? That’s what I want to know. I am a huge believer in strength finders. Some people take discs, some do Myers-Briggs. The reason I asked if it was a setup is because strength finders saved my life. I was deemed top talent when I was like 34 years old at Wells and they gave me a career coach who by the way was Sarah Grady is her name. and she was Dick Kvasevich’s legend on Wall Street. She was his leadership coach and she gave me strength finders and I very quickly was very clear my top five strengths and then my bottom five strengths are not a surprise. Like I am zero. I’m like negative zero at woo. I was like, it won’t even shock you for a minute. Yes i do think that those kinds of valuations are critical and in fact i’m gonna talk to my twenty year old son about taking one i think you’ll end up taking disk but. One thousand percent if you if you do not know what you’re good at and why then try to find out because it can save your life i mean the awareness and the learnings that i got about myself. From taking one test have stayed with me for 25 years. And I’m gonna be really blunt here. I forgot those lessons when I stepped into a new culture and it was painful. So I think you have to also be disciplined about… Take it again, remind yourself, reread whatever book helps you stay grounded in who you are and how you’re showing up. And get some friends to give you feedback. Frazer Rice (39:44.111)Well, mean, people get better or change or worse at certain things. And so you’re not the same person you were 20 years ago. And, you know, it merits revisiting every once in a while. As we wind down here, unfortunately, we probably could go on for about three hours, which I wish we could do. But one of the things that I think is interesting, too, you talked about political capital and building it up, is that I think one piece of advice that I tend to give to people who are starting out and might be useful in the situation that we’re describing here is that when you have political capital, you’ve got to be willing to spend it occasionally. Careers, in my experience, take quantum leaps in that you’ll be going around for a while and then something good will happen and then you’ve got to kind of take advantage of the advantage while you have the advantage of having the advantage and moving up and then reestablishing the plane. And it’s a little bit like a ratchet where when the wrench turns, it doesn’t turn backward. You can kind of continue to elevate on that point. Is that something that you saw where, you know, as you were making the moves up the ladder that didn’t happen at the last situation that maybe might’ve been something that could’ve turned out differently? Julia (41:01.791)Yes, and I think that being more aware of my surroundings would have helped. I don’t think it would have changed the outcome in the other example. But the political capital that I was able to gain is that I got promoted every single time Wells did a major merger when people were panicking about their jobs. Frazer Rice (41:08.623)Mm-hmm. Julia (41:31.061)And one of the things that I did that you and I could probably discuss for two days is I gave up control of trying to manage the outcome. In other words, I went to senior management with two major mergers and I said, you know what? I don’t care what I do for the time that the companies are trying to come together. You give me something hard to do and ugly and I will get it done the right way. And then you decide whether I get rewarded or not. And when I crushed both of those tasks, I got major promotions. So I think it, I think a lot of people think, I’m going, I had a, had an employee who told me I should just get promoted because I’m sitting here and I’ve been sitting here for two years. mean, it really, life just really doesn’t work that way. In my experience, you got to work your ass off for it. And, and you have to put your ego aside and you have to hope that the universe is gonna pay you back. And I believe that because the universe always has. I believe that even now with my current situation, like everything that has brought me here has made me a spokesperson for like a better way because of what happened to me, right? I had 20 years of goodness and then I had something really hard happen. And I’m trying to make lemonade out of a very difficult situation because it is the only way, the only way out is through. So I just have to keep going through and I love the idea of yes, you’ve got to spend your political capital. can’t, know, George Bush said that you can’t just collect it. What are you collecting it for? If you’re not going to spend it. Frazer Rice (43:17.817)Exactly. Okay, we have to disembark here, unfortunately. How should people keep track of your situation? How do they find the book? And how do people get in touch? Julia (43:31.846)Yep. I have, um, I’m on LinkedIn. I have a website, juliacarrion.com. If you are looking for, I’m doing some consulting on a digital transformation always and org design or whatever. So you can find me there. And then, um, you know, today’s a big day. We are filing today or tomorrow, a response to my lawsuit. So it would probably make the news. Thank you to you for being a great ally to women and having me on. The book is walking on broken glass.com. It’s such a great name. So you can order the book on the website from any of your favorite book resellers. Frazer Rice (44:14.639)Super, well good luck with the legal proceedings. All of your information will have that in the show notes so people can find it easily. I think you’re coming off of a difficult situation. I think you’re gonna turn it into something far more transformative. Even you’re envisioning it right now. So I’m hoping for the best here. Resources & Links: Walking on Broken Glass: Navigating the Aftermath of the Glass Ceiling StrengthsFinder Assessment Julia Carrion on LinkedIn Julia Carrion's Website Connect with Julia: LinkedIn Website Stay tuned for updates on her legal case and ongoing advocacy efforts. Don't miss her insights into transforming adversity into empowerment and systemic change. https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/ Keywords: Gaslighting, Corporate Culture, Women in Leadership, Workplace Equity, Julia Carreon, Wells Fargo, Citi, Legal Battle, Glass Ceiling, Political Capital, StrengthsFinder, Work-Life Balance, Systemic Change, Weaponized HR

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S4 Capital has announced a revolutionary new pricing model that will transform how agencies charge for their services: instead of billable hours, they’re moving to… subscriptions. Fixed monthly fees. Annual contracts that auto-renew. All costs absorbed into the price rather than passed through as variables. You know, retainers. The pricing model most independent agencies have used for decades. In this episode (somewhat abbreviated due to Gini’s technical difficulties), Chip and Gini dissect the holding company’s “brilliant innovation” with the appropriate level of sarcasm, then pivot to the more interesting question buried in the announcement: how should agencies price around AI? The conversation moves from eye-rolling at repackaged retainer models to wrestling with legitimate uncertainty about how AI costs will evolve and what that means for agency pricing strategies. Chip points out that we only know what AI costs today, and it’s likely those costs will rise as platforms realize they’re replacing expensive labor and can charge accordingly. This creates a pricing puzzle—do you transparently pass through AI costs, absorb them into your general cost of doing business, or find some middle ground? Gini shares how she’s handling questions from college students about whether jobs will exist when they graduate, explaining that the work itself is shifting from doing to orchestrating, from creating to editing and refining AI outputs. The discussion highlights the difference between cosmetic changes (calling retainers “subscriptions”) and substantive challenges (figuring out sustainable pricing as AI capabilities and costs both increase). They land on the principle that AI costs should be factored into your total cost of doing business rather than line-itemized separately, giving you flexibility to adapt as the landscape shifts without locking yourself into specific cost structures that may not hold. The subtext throughout is that holding companies remain out of touch with how most agencies actually operate, still discovering “innovations” that the rest of the industry implemented years ago. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “We only know what AI costs us today. As AI becomes more and more of a labor replacement, the vendors understand that the value that they’re creating for you is going up. Just as you want to charge your clients more because you’re providing more value, they want to charge you more because they’re providing you more value.” Gini Dietrich: “The job that I had when I graduated from college is not the job that you’ll have when you graduate from college. Those things are going to be done by AI. What you are going to be doing is sort of orchestrating your orchestra of AI bots.” Chip Griffin: “AI has come a long way in the last year. It doesn’t mean that everything that it does should be immediately blasted out to the universe. Sometimes the tone isn’t quite right, or maybe it misses the point slightly because you didn’t give it enough information to begin with.” Gini Dietrich: “Just like you would absorb an employee’s salary into your hourly rates or retainers or however you’re doing your pricing, that same thing. The AI needs to be absorbed into that.” Resources ‘The billable hour does not allow for any meaningful innovation': S4 Capital builds subscription model for the AI age (Digiday article) Related Structuring retainers for long-term profitability Understanding pricing models for your agency's services 9 ways to price your agency's services Choosing the right pricing model for your agency's services View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think I wanna subscribe to your wisdom. I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna, you know, pay you retainer or anything like that. I wanna subscribe. Gini Dietrich: Oh okay, sure. $1 million a week. Chip Griffin: $1 million a week? I don’t know. Yes. I mean, even, even for you, that might be, that might be a little bit much. Gini Dietrich: It’ll be worth it. I promise. I promise. I’ll give you some benchmarks. It’ll be, it’ll be worth it. Chip Griffin: Oh, some benchmarks. Oh, well, I mean, as long as there are some benchmarks. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: That’s really, you gimme some pretty charts to show that. Absolutely. That you’re achieving those benchmarks, I assume. Gini Dietrich: Yes, absolutely. I’ll, yes, 100%. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Okay. Well, that, that should solve it. That’s, that’s good for me. If it’s good for you and so, you know. Let’s do it. Gini Dietrich: Amazing. Yay. That was easy. Chip Griffin: Yay. Gini Dietrich: No, I don’t have to work anymore. Chip Griffin: We’re gonna talk about pricing today. We’re gonna talk about how you charge for your services and it seems like we’ve talked about this a lot, but, but now we have a brilliant new idea being foisted upon us from holding company land. Gini Dietrich: Brilliant is sarcastic, by the way. Chip Griffin: Where all of the ideas come from. I mean. Holding company mind. I think every, every good idea and innovation in the agency world has come from a holding company, hasn’t it? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think, I think you’re right. Yep. Yes. Chip Griffin: And it’s always, it’s always very original thinking that we can expect from the holding companies. Gini Dietrich: Uhhuh. Yes. Chip Griffin: So that’s what we have to discuss today. We have the proclamation from none other, none other than S4 Capital. S4 Capital, for those of you who don’t know, is I think, didn’t they originally describe themselves as like the non holding company holding company or something like that? Gini Dietrich: They did, yes. Chip Griffin: They tried to pretend Gini Dietrich: they did Chip Griffin: That they’re not really a holding company. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: They’re still a holding company folks. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And so what we are being told is that we should move away from the billable hour to a subscription model. Ugh. Now this wild innovation is something that has never been considered before, so I’m glad they’ve brought this to the table. Certainly we’ve never heard of retainers in the agency world. Gini Dietrich: No. Never. Mm-hmm. Nope. Chip Griffin: So this must be different than a retainer, correct? Gini Dietrich: Um, nope. Chip Griffin: No. Gini Dietrich: I mean, when I dug into it, it’s, it’s essentially a retainer. Essentially. Chip Griffin: So the brand new. Innovative idea from holding company land? Mm-hmm. Is that, that we should have retainers and not billable hours? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think the difference that they’re trying to expound, expel, expound upon, expand upon is that, it’s renewable every year, so you don’t have contracts. It’s the same amount every month. Retainer. Mm-hmm. And there was one other piece. Hang on. I, I wrote it down. One year terms, it renews every month. It’s, it’s not a fixed checklist. So eventually you get more output over time, especially if you’re allowed to use AI. And it allows you to absorb costs. So instead of you doing a pass through on expenses, it just absorbs it into that and you, you still pass it through, but it absorbs it instead of doing it one off because procurement doesn’t like variable pass through costs. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. Gini Dietrich: So those were the big things in the subscription model versus the hourly bill hourly model. Chip Griffin: Gosh, I, I mean, I, I really hate to break it to them, but that’s how I’ve run every one of my agency businesses for a quarter of a century. Gini Dietrich: For years. Yeah. Chip Griffin: I mean, I consider myself a relatively innovative guy, but I, I don’t, I don’t claim to have invented that, so I’m, I’m not gonna sue them for doing this. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Because I came up with it first. I certainly didn’t, but I think, I think if they did a little bit of research, they would find this is actually a pretty common way Yes. To do business if you are not a holding company. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Yes. Chip Griffin: I think this is one of those circumstances where the holding companies have got their blinders on Uhhuh. They’ve, they, they drink their own Kool-Aid. They focus only on the way that they do things. And yes, holding companies do a lot of dumb stuff, particularly on the advertising side. They, they like to use billable hours. They like to do pass through expenses with dramatic markups. They like to take kickbacks from publishers and websites in order to place advertising there. Mm-hmm. They do all sorts of stuff. Mm-hmm. That I think is a really bad idea. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: So I guess maybe we should be encouraged by the fact that they’re going to act in a way that’s a little bit more normal. I don’t think it’s gonna help them. I think all of the struggling that we’ve seen holding companies go through in recent years is only gonna continue because the holding company model is a bad model. Yeah. It is a broken model. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And you, you can only put so much makeup on it and try to make it look good. It’s just not gonna happen. Gini Dietrich: It’s, I mean, I read it and my first instinct was, I think I even said to you, oh, so it’s a retainer. And then I, I dug deeper and I read the comments and I read the article and like I dug deeper and I was like, yeah, this is not, it’s not anything that, to your point, that those of us who have run, been running agencies for years, granted not gigantic ones, but those of us who have been doing it, that’s, that’s how I do it. I have annual contracts that renew, unless you send me a letter saying we’re done. We have a monthly retainer, we have a, you know, we, there is work that compounds over time because we get smarter about your business and yeah, we’re using AI for certain things and there is some heavy lifting up front to get things started. So yeah, it compounds over time. Like all of those things are, are true. It’s called a retainer. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and look, I, I mean, I would have more respect if they said, you know, look, in order to, to meet. Where the clients are at in today’s environment, we’re simply going to rename retainers as subscriptions. I, I could respect that. And, there is a case to be made that for a swath of clients, at least, they are more receptive to the word subscription than the word retainer, especially if they’re in tech. So if that’s what this was, that would be fine. But to pretend that it is a brand new way of doing things Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Is just laughable. Yeah. Now I do think in reading the Digiday piece that there, there is an interesting tangent that is not fully encapsulated in this thinking, but it, it opens a door that I think is worth discussing and is worth thinking about for agency owners. Agency leaders at, at every level we’re talking, holding companies or a, you know, a solo shop, and that is how you price around AI. Mm-hmm. And I think that there is currently a strong mindset that if you can do it with AI, this is from the client side, that if you can do it with AI, it ought to be cheaper. There’s a strong feeling from the agency side that if we do it with AI, we should still charge the exact same amount because it’s the value that we’re creating. As usual, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: I think one of the real challenges, and it’s highlighted in the Digiday piece, is that we only know what AI costs us today. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Chip Griffin: So we need to be really careful as we’re thinking about pricing. We need to keep a close eye on it because as I’ve said before on, on this show and elsewhere, I think it is likely that the cost of AI will go up over time. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: That, that we’re, right now, we are in this adoption phase where typically things are underpriced to get people hooked essentially on it. Mm-hmm. So we’ve all seen what we can do with AI, but as AI becomes more and more of a labor replacement, the vendors understand that the value that they’re creating for you is going up. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so just as you want to charge your clients more, because you’re providing more value, they want to charge you more because they’re providing you more value. Gini Dietrich: Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: On top of that, the cost of actually doing all of this continues to go up. And yes, they’re becoming more efficient in some of the models and that sort of thing so that they can balance the quality and the cost. But, but nevertheless, it’s likely that over time the cost is gonna continue to rise. So if they’re gonna have a smaller margin, they’re gonna make up for it by fixing that margin, by charging you more. Yep. So regardless of how you get there, you are going to be charge, be paying more for AI in five years than you are today. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: So, so you do need to be thinking about how you are structuring AI and in particular the Digiday piece put out there, the, the thought of are you transparent about what the AI costs are or do you just consider that part of your cost of doing business? And I, I think this is, there is a lot of room for meaty conversations in the, the coming months and years trying to figure out how to tackle this most appropriately. Gini Dietrich: It’s funny you say that because I’ve been doing a lot of speaking virtually to juniors and seniors in colleges, in college classes. And one of the question that continues to come up is, and I think it’s really interesting that they’re talking about this at school, which is smart, but it continues to come up, is, is there a job for me when I graduate from college? And my answer has been the job that I had when I graduated from college is not the job that you’ll have when you graduate from college. Like, you’re not gonna stand at the copier and make clipbooks, you’re not going to open Bacon’s books and make media lists. You’re probably not gonna make media lists at all. You’re not gonna make clipbooks at all. You’re not going to, you probably, you may not even be pitching media. Like those things are, are going to be done by AI. What you are going to be doing is sort of orchestrating your, or conducting your orchestra of AI bots, so you have to understand how to prompt accurately, how to give it the right kinds of input so that you get the right output. How to edit its work, you know, those are the kinds of things that you have to understand. And so when you think about, to your point, what this is going to cost, it may not cost the same as a full-time employee. It may not cost the same as five full-time employees, but it’s going to cost you something, and that has to be… Just like you would absorb an employee’s salary into your, your however hourly rates or retainers or however you’re doing your pricing, that same thing. The AI needs to be absorbed into that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think, I think ultimately, I mean, first of all, I would agree with you on the, the first jobs thing. If I think back to my first job, in an agency as a junior account executive, I can’t think of more than 5% of my job that I did back then that, that today Yeah. Can still be done. And, and some of it’s because of AI’s not just, you know, technology has Sure. Has improved. I mean, nobody’s standing there at the photocopier. That’s nothing to do with AI. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: But, you know, good luck finding a photocopier most of the time, even if you need one. And so, you know, those are the, the kinds of things technology has, has completely replaced a lot of what we did. And AI is just accelerating that even further. So certainly those kinds of jobs are not there. And, and I think that it’s fair to say that, that a college graduate going to work for the first time in an agency is, is really going in from a functional level at a, at about a level above where, where you and I started back in the day. And so fundamentally that means the skill sets are different, right? Because when you, when you’re that level up, you are doing more editing than creating, you are doing more guiding than doing. It doesn’t mean that you’ve gone, you know, completely all the way to being just a manager. You know, not people aren’t just gonna jump right in and just be managers. Let’s be realistic here. You do. But the, the kinds of things that you’re doing require a different skillset than what we needed going in. Because we weren’t doing a lot of editing of other people’s work. We weren’t doing a lot of guiding and checking and, and all of that kind of stuff. We had someone else who was doing that to our work. Now, now you have to know how to do that effectively and to your point. And it’s, it’s not just about the prompting. It’s understanding what you’re getting back and then how to re-prompt, how to tweak, how to get the most out of it, how to make sure that it actually makes sense, whatever’s come back. Because I mean, AI has come a long way in the last year. It doesn’t mean that everything that it does should be immediately blasted out to the universe. And that’s not just because of factual stuff. It may be just sometimes the tone isn’t quite right, or, or maybe it misses the point slightly because you didn’t give it enough information to begin with, and so you need to be able to look at it and have that level of judgment to understand when you need to apply human editing or when you need to ask the, the AI to take another stab at it or to do whatever you need to do to get the quality that the client is expecting. And I think, but it, it needs to be priced into your, your total cost of doing business, single invoice, not separate line items for all of this. Because I think to you, as soon as you start getting into, to separate line items for it, you put yourself in a difficult position to adapt as needed. And the reality is that none of us really knows what the, the innards of an agency in 24 or 36 months is gonna look like. We all have pretty good guesses, right? I mean, but, but the reality is we just don’t know for sure. And so we can’t put ourselves in a box by specifying here’s what it costs or say, Hey, we’re just gonna pass through these costs for the markup or those kinds of things. It needs to be factored into your cost of doing business. And on that note, I think we’ve provided some good food for thought and hopefully you’ll be able to think about pricing in perhaps a way that is a little more. I don’t know, rational, thoughtful, and more usable than what the holding companies are currently thinking or maybe have ever thought. But any case, I’m Chip Griffin for myself and Gini Dietrich. This has been another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast, and it depends.

“Cancer didn't just change my life; in a lot of ways, it saved it.” In this episode, Nick speaks with writer and cancer survivor Edward Miskie about identity, resilience, and rebuilding life after cancer. Edward shares his journey through alcoholism, a rare and aggressive cancer diagnosis at 25, and the emotional fallout of survival. He opens up about losing who he was, shedding old identities, learning to create a new version of himself, and the power found in asking yourself what you truly want. What to listen for: Cancer stripped away his sense of identity and derailed every plan he had for his life. Coping took many unhealthy forms, such as alcohol, casual sex, and escapism, etc. All attempts to feel “normal.” Humor, community, and intentionally creating fun moments helped him survive emotionally. After treatment ends, survivors lose their daily medical support system and feel like they're free-falling. “The question that changed everything for me was simply: What do you want?” Asking what we want puts us back in charge of our lives Whether you're in tune with your intuition or not, asking what you want will most often bring up an answer, even if it's surface-level; it's a start Taking charge of your life doens't always mean taking action first; it often starts with a simple question “Humor and fun helped me survive the darkest moments, even when it felt impossible.” Escaping or bypassing is never the answer to healing; however, a subtle mental shift can be just what is needed to keep moving Finding “fun” and humor in life often leads to quicker resiliency Life sucks at times. Why not have fun as best we can in every situation, no matter how dark or dire? About Edward Miskie Edward is currently celebrating 13 years as a sole survivor of a rare Non_Hodgkin’s Lymphoma with the publishing of his book Cancer, Musical Theatre, & Other Chronic Illnesses, available at Barnes & Nobel, Apple Books, Walmart, Amazon, and others. For the last 20 years, Edward has spent his life in NYC writing, producing, and performing. https://www.edwardmiskie.com/ https://www.remissionfilmfest.com/ https://instagram.com/edwardmiskie https://www.tiktok.com/@edwardmiskie Resources: Check out other episodes about life change from cancer Cancer Doesn’t Define Your Life, You Do, Embrace The Suck Unpacking A Five-Time Cancer Survivor's Journey With Shariann Tom Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:01.23)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Edward Miske. Edward, how are doing today? Edward Miskie (he/him) (00:11.107)How are you? Nick McGowan (00:12.376)I’m good, I’m good. I know we’ve had just a little bit of technical issues getting things started, but here we are. I’m excited to talk to somebody who’s from the Northeast. I know when I was describing how the show would be, I was like, here’s kind of a Northeast can of how it’s gonna be. But we’re gonna talk about a pretty fucking heavy topic that sadly a lot of people either experience or know somebody that is going through it or has gone through it. And I fucking hate cancer and I know you do as well. So man, I’m glad that you’re here. Why don’t you get us started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre. Edward Miskie (he/him) (00:51.36)Sure, okay, so I pay my bills working in corporate America, but outside of that, I’m a writer and I consider myself to be a producer in either live or TV film world. It’s been a long journey. I used to do musical theater and some TV and film, and here we are. Here we have landed in this kind of iteration of that life. thing about me that is kind of weird, bizarre. actually like, and this might be a little bit mild for you, but like, I consider myself more recently than not to be an introvert. And I always thought that I was an extrovert, but that was actually just because I was drinking enough to become an extrovert to kind of like, settle the introverted, introverted want to go home. And I felt kind of obligated to fight that and stay out and be around people and do all the social things. there is a point to which I really did like that. But it just turned me into an alcoholic. And so I stopped drinking and embraced the fact that I’m more of an introvert than anything. Nick McGowan (02:08.718)I don’t think that’s mild and actually man, that’s spot on with my own life. I think there are a lot of us that think, we have to do this sort of thing. Like we have to go out. Like people work in a corporate office, let’s say every Thursday night, everybody goes out to this one specific bar for happy hour. And they all talk about the one person who’s an idiot in their job or whatever else. And they all just do those things. And there are people that are like, well, I want to be part of that crowd. So I’m going to do that. I think that should even ties back to when we were kids. Like there are certain people that didn’t experience drinking in high school, others that were like, everybody fucking come with me. I got it. We’re going to the woods, you know? Edward Miskie (he/him) (02:37.654)No, it- Edward Miskie (he/him) (02:43.992)yeah. Little column A, little column B. But yeah, is especially like having, like I said, in theater for so long. Being in New York City, it’s very hard to be introverted in New York City. I remember reading something recently that was like, I’m actually an extroverted introvert in the sense that like, I am pretty comfortable in a social setting. I am very comfortable doing stuff like this. Nick McGowan (02:47.957)Yeah. Edward Miskie (he/him) (03:10.102)But if you throw me in a social setting where I don’t know anyone, I immediately clam up and disappear. it, that’s what the alcohol was for. You know, and then, and then COVID hit and that just spiraled out of control and then, you know, here we are. So, you know, that I think that is probably the weird thing about me that people might not guess if they know me. Nick McGowan (03:19.022)Yeah, yeah, lube you up. Nick McGowan (03:32.504)Well, how long have you been sober now? Edward Miskie (he/him) (03:35.632)it’ll be two years end of March. So like year and a half. Nick McGowan (03:39.822)Cool, nice. That’s not a thing that most people kind of just bring up, you know, unless you’re like, I don’t know, being grossly boisterous about it. Like, hey, I stopped drinking a year and a half ago. The fuck, we’re not even talking about that. Yeah, like, well, okay. Or CrossFitters. Yeah, or Vegan CrossFitters, watch out. Edward Miskie (he/him) (03:47.99)Look at me! Right, it’s like vegans. I’m vegan. or vegan, God, the worst. Yeah, no, I mean, it’s, I think I said to you offline, like, I literally wrote a book about my life that is not does not put me in a good light. And so I just have a very low threshold for things that like, I’m sensitive about talking about. So like being a full raging alcoholic, that’s nothing. Nick McGowan (04:19.534)Sure, yeah. That was the fun times. Yeah, that’s funny. I’m sure there are more people than not that listen to this that have like, at some point thought maybe I have a little bit of a problem. And maybe that was the end of it. You know, like, I realized at one point, I’m drinking a lot. And this isn’t helping me. It’s actually stopping me from doing things. Like I remember one time telling myself, I’m gonna go to the gym today. It’s like, no, you’re not. Edward Miskie (he/him) (04:22.984)Right, miss those days. Nick McGowan (04:48.402)It’s 11 o’clock and you’ve already had two drinks. I was like, I’m not going to the gym today. And the next day being like, that sucks, man. That’s gross. And I hate it or whatever. And I was like, I don’t even want to go outside because I’m making these choices to do this. So, but if you get to that door, you can then make a choice through that. Like we’d even said, kind of offline, like you had to get to a door to be able to be where you’re at today with all this. But let’s break down the alcoholism in a sense, going out and being around with people. Edward Miskie (he/him) (04:52.277)Oof. Nick McGowan (05:18.094)Excuse me, being in the industry, being in the conversations, all that sort of stuff can be weird for people if they don’t have a drink. And going out after the fact when you’re no longer drinking, it’s like, you just don’t want to stand here with this thing? Edward Miskie (he/him) (05:34.027)Yeah, it’s like it that that part I’m fine with. And like up into a certain point, like when people start getting shitty, then I’m that’s my cue to leave. That’s usually the barometer I go by. I’m not like triggered being in a bar. I’m like, cool to be around it. It’s not a big deal. I just don’t like it just makes me feel gross. And I just don’t want to do it. It’s it’s when I’m around people who are getting a little unruly and on the drunk scale that I’m kind of like, okay, well, that’s my cue to go because we’re no longer on the same plane. Nick McGowan (05:36.686)Good. Nick McGowan (05:43.726)Sure. Nick McGowan (05:52.302)Yeah. Nick McGowan (06:02.442)Yeah, Irish exit your way on out. I’m glad that you say that there are certain people that are they’re hesitant to stop drinking or stop doing whatever that thing is that they do, because that’s kind of how they hang out with those friends. That’s how they hang out their family, you know. Edward Miskie (he/him) (06:05.246)Yeah, just like, good night guys, bye! Edward Miskie (he/him) (06:20.596)I mean, yeah, I mean, that’s that’s part of the reason why I drank a lot because that was my social social circle. And it was just kind of like, well, if I stopped drinking, like, they’re not going to ask me to come out with them anymore. And like, low key, that’s what happened in the long run. But like, you know, it was it was a huge buildup. You know, I started really kind of drinking pretty heavily in like, I don’t know, 2010. I drank my way through chemo, I drank my way through my 20s and my early 30s. And then I just hit a point where I was like, I don’t, I want to see if I can go a certain period of time without it. And like it was during COVID, I had actually built up my tolerance, like an actual fucking champion and blew through a bottle of Jameson within like four or five hours. And I wasn’t drunk and I wasn’t hung over the next day. And that was kind of like the whole, hmm. Nick McGowan (07:13.838)That’s a sign. Yeah. Edward Miskie (he/him) (07:14.71)Okay, maybe I should stop now. And then like my doctor was like, your liver numbers are out of control. What are you doing? So we had we had to do a quick course correct, but I wouldn’t I never actually went fully sober because of that because I was like afraid of the social component of it going away. So I would do like 100 days here 100 days there 200 days was I think 210 days was as long as I had ever gone. And then this spring or spring 2024. Nick McGowan (07:22.382)man. Edward Miskie (he/him) (07:43.127)I just was like, I’m gonna do a year. That’s the longest I would have gone ever. So let me try that and let me go for a year. And then a year hit and I was like, oh, like, I should like ceremoniously break this and then I’ll never be sober for more than a year. And like, I’ll just go out and have one drink and it’ll be totally fine. the day came and went and I was like, I don’t want to. I’m good. So here we are a year and a half later and I’m still. Still on the sober train. Nick McGowan (08:13.358)And that’s cool. mean, for everybody that’s listening that is having one or six you Damn. All right. So, yeah, well, I’m gonna start that over again, because at least now I know that there’s a problem. Because like I said, last episode, I was still like, yeah, sure, with like the laptop up. So I’m gonna clip this part out. All right, so three, two. So whether it’s one or six drinks, I mean, the people that are out there kind of thinking like, I know I have probably a little too many, but I don’t really think that there’s much of a problem. I think there’s stuff where we have to think about Edward Miskie (he/him) (08:25.91)It’s all good. heard one or six. Great. Nick McGowan (08:55.03)Like you said about your liver, like your liver enzymes are probably crazy that you don’t know that you potentially have fatty liver that you have to deal with now. And there are different things that could come up. Like, I don’t know, I don’t want to sound like somebody that’s like, you shouldn’t drink and finger wag and all that. But it’s like, in some ways, the older we get, the more that we can look at the shit that we did when our twenties and thirties and go, my God, what’s going on inside my body right now? Like you kind of just blew straight past it that you drank through chemo. Time out, back to the chemo. Give us context here. Edward Miskie (he/him) (09:29.534)I had cancer. It was a very rare non Hodgkin’s lymphoma. There were only about like 900 or so cases of it reported worldwide at the time. It’s called rare and large B-cell Burke. It’s like non Hodgkin’s lymphoma. It’s very aggressive. You could watch my tumor grow. It was the grossest thing in the world. And it was a very dire emergency situation. And I think maybe like two or three rounds of chemo in and I just asked, it was two, was round two. And I asked my oncologist if I could have a drink and she was like, yeah, just one or two, but don’t go crazy. And then I promptly left the hospital and went to my friend’s bar and went crazy and had like doubles the whole night. it was, and like she knew that I had was going through, like going through it and she was trying to help and be like, free alcohol, take it, whatever, whatever, whatever. And then just, you know. that’s that kind of like opened the floodgates of like, you can drink during chemo. That’s fine. And and I did. Nick McGowan (10:31.03)I mean, for anybody that drinks even slightly, they’re probably gonna listen and be like, of course you’re gonna drink. I would drink. Edward Miskie (he/him) (10:38.558)Well, right. What my justification of it was like, well, you know, liver wise, like it’s not chemo. This is like water at this point. So like we’re good. Nick McGowan (10:50.672)the things that will justify, know, like, you know, other poison or this poison I’ve been used to for a while. Why do I use one as a back, you know, like a piggyback? Thank you. It’s a dessert. man. Because you’re piling alcohols in. Edward Miskie (he/him) (10:53.598)Right Actual poison or we’re curated poison. Pick one, you Yeah, the liver is like, oh well, that’s not methotrexate. So cool. We’ll have a little a amuse-bouche Edward Miskie (he/him) (11:16.926)yeah yeah yeah like what a respite from chemo was was bourbon Nick McGowan (11:19.924)Yeah, jeez, jeez. I mean, it makes sense. Part of the reason why I have the show is to talk about those super dark times, like the times where you’re sitting there. Like, I’m sure I’m not, I’m not you, obviously. So I can’t think and remember this, but I can almost picture you sitting there with a glass in your hand, a couple fingers of scotch or whatever it is, thinking like, huh, this is where I’m at right now. And like, what a fucking time to think about all that stuff and still put that shit in your body. Cause you, in some ways I’m sure you’re like, I just want to feel a little happy, a little something. Edward Miskie (he/him) (11:54.433)Well, it wasn’t even so much a question of feeling happy because like I was 25 when I was diagnosed, right? So like I was still a young person, relatively speaking. I mean, I was a young person. I’m almost 40 now. So like, you know, whatever. But it wasn’t so much about like having that introspective moment of like, I guess this is my life now. It was more like, fuck this. I’m going out and having fun. This shit isn’t going to stop me and I’m going to drink my way through this. And it it very quickly became a coping mechanism along with a number of other things. And like, and it’s a big narrative that I carry through where it’s just like the coping mechanisms of having cancer and then again, the coping mechanisms of surviving it. You know, alcohol was certainly one of them. I had tried like pot for the first time during this period of time. And that was like pre like retail available. So like you were just hoping for whatever the dosage was, and I didn’t know shit about dosage. So like, the friends that I had at the time, like baked brownies. And like, back then, you just like threw a little nug in some butter and hope for hope for the best. And they were bombs. Like, and they were going off, especially if you were mixing. But you know, it was like those two things that like indiscriminate sexual strangers, because I just wanted to feel like hot and normal, even though I was like bloated and bald from chemo. So Nick McGowan (12:50.848)Yeah. Nick McGowan (13:00.886)Some of them are bombs. Yeah. Edward Miskie (he/him) (13:18.526)It was one of the many coping mechanisms that I developed during that period of time. Nick McGowan (13:24.096)So I don’t want people to ever go through anything like this ever. I mean, it sucks that we people go through really, really tough and difficult times, but I mean, it also shapes us. Like going through these really trying and like devastating times, you get through it, you are ultimately changed no matter what. Like I have not been through cancer personally, but I’ve had lots of family and different friends and people that I’ve known that have had it. And it almost seems like it’s like one in like every other person at this point. But then again, like all the stuff that we go through, be it cancer, be it some drastic change, be it some career you’ve had for 15, 20 years and you go, what the fuck am I doing? I didn’t want to be here 25 years ago. Whatever those changes are, that shit can stop us from making additional changes. You were kind of forced in a sense with cancer. Like you had to deal with it. You could not. Yeah. Edward Miskie (he/him) (14:19.604)Right, there was no option. I was told I wouldn’t live past 30 if I didn’t do anything. Nick McGowan (14:24.854)But as a 25 year old, you’re right. I mean you’re a kid at that point. I can’t remember being 25. Like I know every fucking thing in the planet. Now you look back and like, oh. Edward Miskie (he/him) (14:28.682)Yeah. Yeah. Edward Miskie (he/him) (14:32.992)my god, I was a, I was a dumbass. Like what and then you give me cancer, like, of course, I’m gonna the dumbassery is going to continue through it. And in a lot of ways, even though like, even though it was awful, cancer saved my life, and it changed it in a good way. And that took a long time to kind of come to terms with that wasn’t like, my god, you’re cancer free. And I’m like, thank god that happened. I didn’t want to talk about it for years. It just became like a thing I would drop into conversation and passing where they’d be like, where were you for the last year? Like, I had cancer moving on, you know, and it just didn’t want to, I didn’t want it to become my personality. And as I, as I’ve aged, I’ve kind of made a little mini career out of it and has become my personality. You know, I probably, I was probably fighting it to be so honest with you. Nick McGowan (15:24.874)Maybe you kind of knew it was coming, you know, like, yeah. Along with being an extrovert, which you’re not, and like fighting that as well. man. Yeah, that, I can’t imagine how something that drastic couldn’t change you, but I also think that there’s, the purpose that we have in our own lives was part of us being here and what we were brought into this planet with. Edward Miskie (he/him) (15:30.378)Ha ha ha! Right, right, yeah. Nick McGowan (15:53.12)but everything will shape us. The environment shapes us, technology shapes us, all this stuff. So what a cool thing for you to tie film along with your journey. Like you and I connected because you’re looking for people that can talk about their cancer story in basically a real YouTube short clip that’s going to be part of a documentary that will ultimately help people even if they go, I’m going through this now and I don’t know what to do. Here’s some sort of I’m not alone feeling from this. Like you unfortunately had to go through this shit to ultimately be able to do this and be able to help a lot of people. So talk to us a bit about getting up to the point of like, want to create a documentary, to create a film festival and then actually doing something with it. Edward Miskie (he/him) (16:41.558)Well, I’m always doing something. Friends and family know that I’m never sitting still. Grass can’t grow on a rolling stone or moss can’t grow on a rolling stone, whatever that phraseology is. That’s me. And it was right after I was told I was cancer free that I just, I think that, and I’ve learned this to be kind of the general consensus that you’d think that you’re just going to go back to the way that your life was before. And it’s like, oh great, this is done. know, okay, we’re finished here, Wrinkle in Time, we’re gonna meet me, this me is gonna meet me back here where I am currently, and we’ll just go from there. And that is effectively not what happens. I fought that for years, where I thought that I could just shove myself back into the life I had before, and it always felt off. And maybe to the outsider, who is not me, it looked like I successfully did that, you know, I was a working actor for a long time. And I was going through the motions of the life that I had before, but the entire time I felt so out of place and I felt off and I couldn’t figure out why. And as I started to speak to other people who had been through the cancer experience and come out on the other side, every single one of their stories was the same. I can’t stand the people I’m around. They’re irritating me. I don’t want to go to work. I mean, that’s a normal feeling, but like in a different way. where it’s like, what am I fucking doing? Like, I don’t want to do this. And it shifts your relationship, relationships not only with other people in your life, but with yourself. And there isn’t a whole lot of conversation about it. There’s not a whole lot of resources for it. And so what I wanted to do, the more and more I talk about this independently, whether it be on other podcasts or whether it be through something else I’m working on, it’s why I wrote my first book is that I want to have the conversation not only of like the hard parts of having cancer, because I think a lot of times people just look at you like a cancer patient, and you’re not really a person anymore. And so the conversations of relationships, dating sex really, then and, you know, body image and everything else kind of go away. Because, you’re a sick person, you shouldn’t be fussing about that. Okay, well, I was a 25 year old guy, like, and I’m very vain. So like, Nick McGowan (18:59.734)Hmm. Edward Miskie (he/him) (19:06.654)Of course, I was going to be thinking about this. and so those conversations paired with the after cancer conversations and how your life just is complete, a complete unrecognizable thing that like you’re existing in and it’s like it’s like dreams, you know, like when you have a dream and in the dream, you like understand that you’re in your house, but it doesn’t look like your house. That’s what it’s like you come out and you’re like, I recognize everything, but I feel so displaced. Nick McGowan (19:08.853)Hmm. Nick McGowan (19:28.778)Mm-hmm. Edward Miskie (he/him) (19:36.363)and I don’t recognize anything that’s happening. And so you spend a lot of time like I did trying to grasp to get back at that desperately and in so many different ways to try and feel the way that you used to feel before you had cancer. And that’s just not going to happen. And my, I think my impression that I would like to leave with people who are maybe newly cancer free or are presumably going to be soon is that like just fucking kill off the person that you were before early. Because the sooner you let go of that person, the sooner you can create a new one that is going to be better and have better context and better understanding of your life and your wants. And it’s very much a clean slate. It’s almost, medically speaking, I had a stem cell transplant. That’s not the case with everybody else, but medically speaking, like my immune system was a little baby. Nick McGowan (20:08.694)you Nick McGowan (20:33.45)Hmm. Edward Miskie (he/him) (20:33.576)And so like, in a very literal sense, like my body was infantile and like, didn’t look at but you know what I mean? Like on the inside, the actual clock running on the immune system was was a little baby. And so like, I should have really treated myself the same in the sense that there I have no history from that point on, there’s no history, there’s no context to start over. And I wish I would have done that sooner. Nick McGowan (20:41.366)you Nick McGowan (20:52.904)Yeah. Well, it sounds like it’s almost like shedding skin in a sense. Like, but that. Edward Miskie (he/him) (21:01.224)yeah, 100%. And especially in almost in a literal sense too, not that your skin is like falling off or unless you’ve had radiation in which case then yes it is. there are pictures, they’re not nice. But like you don’t look the way that you did before cancer really ever again. You know, and like, relatively speaking, I don’t think I look I’ve ever looked at the way that I did before cancer ever again. And maybe that partially had to do with my age and getting older and whatever. But, you know, you you go into it looking one way and then you get in there and you’re completely wrecked and you look very different during and then after it’s like a rebuilding stage and you bounce back and think your hair comes back curly or sometimes it comes back white or sometimes it doesn’t come back at all and There’s so many different versions of how you change through that whole process that like on the other side, it’s just like, what skin am I wearing? Who is this? Nick McGowan (22:07.846)And with that, it also changes you, you know, as the soul and the being inside. What a cool thing to think about from the perspective of, if you’re changing, you’re changing. So go with it. But that’s not a thing you could have really, I don’t know, I’ve only known you for a little bit, but like, I’m sure somebody at 25 and they’re like, you’re gonna love the person you’re gonna be, probably would have started off with fuck you and. anything after that would have just been how you felt about yourself in that moment right then and there. As a 25 year old kid too, you are still forming who you think you want to be. Even if you’re a little further ahead in where you are, like you’re still a couple of years ahead of maybe somebody who’s 22 or whatever. But you have this idea in your head of this is where I think I’m going. And then that all changes. So for you now to be able to look back and say like, all right, well, I could have flown or like enjoyed that a little bit more and gone with it. I think that’s crucial for people no matter what age. you also have different points. Like 30, you look a little different. 35, you feel a little different. 40, your knees just fucking hurt. Yeah, exactly. And you’re like, what happened? Like, why is my back hurting? I slept for eight hours. That was the problem. But like life just happens and. Edward Miskie (he/him) (23:20.958)And you start to look a little different too. Edward Miskie (he/him) (23:30.422)Yeah. Nick McGowan (23:32.81)I think we have to look at ourselves in the mirror differently at different times anyway. But for those people that are, I don’t know, about to go through something like that, not even just cancer, because I think this kind of ties across different major shifts and changes. What advice would you give to them to be able to say like, hey, keep on that track, but here’s how it go about it. Edward Miskie (he/him) (23:57.653)mean, I know several people who have written books that are like the blueprint to going through cancer. And I think that is helpful. And there’s certainly a place for that. I think I think that there is no blueprint and no guidebook because everyone is different. And every circumstance is different. And every prognosis is different. And the treatment I get is not going to be the same treatment that someone else gets. And so it’s very difficult to kind of articulate like, do this. And the only And I mean, as unfun as the realities of cancer are, and the need to like basically force feed yourself so that you have strength enough to get through it and and like all that crap, even though you don’t want to. I think, I mean, the during the during portion, like, try to have fun, like, really try to have fun. I would invite friends over to like my hospital room and we have like pizza parties. with hospital food. Like it was fun. Like it was a shitty circumstance. It was fucking terrible. But like we made the best of it. And being surrounded by friends and family really helped that. And it’s certainly a way to fight it. You know, like there’s only so much fighting you can do in a hospital bed and like with doctors and nurses around you and this, that and the other. like, try to have fun, make the best of it. Like that’s, and I feel shitty saying that, you know, because like facing that if you would have if you would have said if you would have told newly diagnosed 25 year old me to like have fun and be like fuck you you dumb cunt what are you talking about? So that that’s I feel like that’s a pretty hard bill to swallow and I apologize if that comes up. Oh my god you have cancer have fun. Nick McGowan (25:43.484)I mean. Well, I mean, there are things like, I think you can go through shit where you can tell somebody like, man, it’s going to be rough, but here’s what I learned from it or whatever. I’m glad that you went to them. You don’t have, I guess, the right or the authority or all the information even to be able to say, here’s the exact blueprint. Because that is never the thing. Like context and everybody’s situation is always different no matter what it is. But for you to be able to think back to yourself of like, hey, go have fun. Okay, you probably would have told yourself to go fuck off. In all reality, like you’re still right because you’ve been through all that. And there’s still stages just like grief, just like anything else, you go through all those stages. But then with the clarity, here you are doing these things. So with the people that are on their path towards self mastery, maybe you’ve had cancer or they’re in remission or they know somebody that’s had cancer, what sort of advice would you give to them as they’re on their path towards self mastery? Edward Miskie (he/him) (26:46.666)Who? I might have to just talk this one through. think my first reaction is when you have cancer actively, there is no path to self mastery because every single day is just a curve ball. And I feel like that sounds a little womp-womp and I don’t mean it to, but the last thing on my mind when I was in treatment was like, how can I self master? Self master bait, maybe, but that’s a different conversation. but I do think that there is, there is room to like, live in the active cancer space during treatment and like, make sure that you take moments to appreciate the people around you. And to recognize those who are helping you from a from a good place, because there are certainly people that are going to show up that are not there from a good place. And that’s much longer conversation, but I would say like be fine find a way to be present and acknowledge the people around you and Appreciate the fact that they’re there Nick McGowan (28:00.38)seems important kind of no matter what’s going on but probably really critical for you to look at in such a heavy time of like what the fuck I could imagine most times you can go in through cancer you just don’t want to even anything let alone have fun Edward Miskie (he/him) (28:11.734)you yeah. No, when I’m listening, I’m not trying to paint this picture that like everyday was rainbows and sparkles. Like it certainly was not. But like there, there were definitive points where I made a purposeful decision to have fun, or do something that was like really out of the ordinary from my day to day. And one thing like, maybe this is off topic, but one thing that I do want to add to the whole transitioning out of cancer thing is like, the again, the misconception of what that Nick McGowan (28:23.702)Sure. Edward Miskie (he/him) (28:46.64)looks like, right? You know, like you think you’re cancer free, you’re told that you’re cancer free, and everything is going to be amazing. And that you’re you get to go back to your life, right? But I think what people don’t understand, and they couldn’t understand, because they haven’t been in that situation, perhaps, is that like, when you’re being treated, all of the nurses and all the doctors and all the social workers and all the people running, you know, medical studies and whatnot that you inevitably get shoved into, are like a very concrete support system. And when you’re told that you’re cancer free, all of that goes away, essentially overnight. And so that’s like, it’s another contributing factor to looking around at your life and being like, I don’t know what to do, because you’re also free falling. You’re free falling from like this network of people that have been holding you up for however long and telling you where to go and what appointments to go to and what to eat and what not to eat and how to take your medication and when to take it and like every single moment of your life is dictated and then all of sudden it’s not. And that’s like, again, like a bomb going off, like where am I? What do I do? How do I get up in the morning? What do you mean I don’t have any appointments? And then in like a really kind of sick, twisted, fucked up way, you’re like wishing something would go wrong so you could go back to the hospital to see your doctor and be like, and feel normal because that has become normal. And they’re like, it’s it’s a minefield at my five year cancer free appointment, my oncologist, and I didn’t know this, told me that because I hit five years, I no longer need to see her. And like, you’d think like, my god, I hit five years. That’s great. I cried because I was going to miss her. And like, she was great. I loved her. But like, talk about like an unexpected reaction of like, what do mean, I’m not going to see you anymore? Nick McGowan (30:28.502)Mm. Edward Miskie (he/him) (30:39.24)It like very much was like a weird fucked up breakup. Nick McGowan (30:42.602)Hmm. And a very heavy time of your life. Like these relationships that, yeah, that’s, that’s crazy. I, people that don’t have situations like that don’t think about it. that way, I mean, it can almost be like, some jobs that you’re in, you can be familial and there’s some that like push too much of that, but like you work, you work a lot with people or groups or whatever. And then somebody’s just gone or the whole group ended or whatever. Like we all have those little situations at times, but Edward Miskie (he/him) (30:46.154)Yeah. Nick McGowan (31:12.874)the longer that stuff goes and the heavier it is, I feel like that just makes a ton of sense where it’s like all of that just compounds and like this piece of concrete of this is a giant chunk of your life. And these all mean a lot to you specifically now, but God going forward, you’ll have memories for the rest of your life because of all that stuff. Tevi, yeah, man, I’m glad that you bring that up. So thank you for that. And this has been. Edward Miskie (he/him) (31:33.782)for better or worse. Edward Miskie (he/him) (31:39.521)No, of course. And I do want to comment, sorry, I do want to comment to the self mastery thing. One thing I do remember doing, and I still do it now, and I actually end up yelling at people about this too, whenever you kind of like hit a place where you don’t know what to do, you you hit a fork in the road or some major thing changes in your life. And this was kind of a later on during that period of time thing, but I’ve carried it over to now and it’s like kind of the default thing that I do. is I asked myself what I want. And it’s like, it’s like, it has to be a rapid fire response. It cannot be like this existential, like I sat down and journaled about this for five hours, like it has to be like the look at yourself in the mirror and be like, what do you want? Or just like, write it down. I want blood and the first thing that comes to your mind. And I used to, I used to journal a lot more than I do now. But I would have I have pages and pages and pages of like, what do you want? I want I want I want I want I want and I would just make lists and it’d be stupid shit like I want a coffee. I want a car. I want money. I want better hair. I like you just write it down. And that’s like the very general version of that. But I think the more specific version of that is like if you’ve hit a crossroad, you have to ask yourself what do you want? Because so many of us end up acting Nick McGowan (32:42.079)Mm-hmm. Edward Miskie (he/him) (33:02.642)in the shadow of what other people want or what other people expect of us. And that just takes us farther and farther and farther away from who we actually are. This is something I can speak to specifically from cancer. But it’s, it’s something I can also specifically speak to because of being in the entertainment industry, where you are expected to be something you’re not necessarily or you get shoved into a box that like you have to exist in or you don’t work. And I wish I would have had this practice a lot earlier to just be like, what do you want? I want this. What do you want? I want this. if we’re getting a job offer, okay, look at it. What do I want out of this? What is this going to do to serve me? And I think the, the, what do I want situation has really shaped the last couple of years of my life. My life now looks Nick McGowan (33:53.718)Hmm. Edward Miskie (he/him) (33:56.745)exponentially different than it did three years ago, and it’s because I just really sat down with myself and just kept asking me what I wanted. Nick McGowan (34:05.098)Yeah, that’s a good point. think for anybody who, trust their intuition or the people that are real heady and think about things a lot. mean, there are certain people that they have to go off their gut instincts. Like, I’m a sacral lead person, so I even do it with dinners. Like, what are we having for dinner tonight? Sushi? Nah. Thai? Nah. Burgers? Yeah. Or whatever it is. It’s like to have that. But I think even if people can just sit down, and you have to think through things all the times or you have to feel through all of it, just asking yourself that of like, what do I want? There’s something that’s gonna come up, always. I’m glad you pointed out like the normal human shit of like, I want a coffee. Yeah, that makes sense. Cause like that’s what you fucking wanted, right? Edward Miskie (he/him) (34:46.068)Yeah, great. Right. And I think a lot of us, especially people who are over thinkers, I’m related to some of them. But like, there just is so much hesitation. And that takes up so much time when you think too hard about what the answer is. And I think that comes from being a people pleaser and wanting to come up with the right answer that everyone else will also be happy with. And like, Nick McGowan (35:02.784)Mm-hmm. Edward Miskie (he/him) (35:13.174)Again, I know if it’s age, I if it’s cancer, it’s probably a combination of both, but I don’t give a fuck what other people want. I don’t. This is the path that I’m going on that I’ve decided that is right for me, and I don’t give a flying fuck who has to say what about it. Like, you want to pay my rent? Great. Then you get to decide what choices I make. Nick McGowan (35:34.144)Hmm, man, I guess even on that note, the people that are kind of in a spot where they’re like, well, I work for somebody and I have to do what they want me to do because I also need to take a paycheck from them to pay for my mortgage and whatever else. I think we can still do that in a balancing way, but we have to ask ourselves at the basics. Like, what do I want right now? I don’t want to be at this job anymore. So start with that. Or I want to do something different or whatever. Yeah. Edward Miskie (he/him) (35:50.198)100%. Edward Miskie (he/him) (35:56.151)Great, right, then do something else. know, complaining will only get you so far until you actually have to like do something about it. Right, right, right. Well, and that actually ties into like the, I don’t remember what the prompt was in the, before when we were talking offline, but like I literally have a Post-It note on my desk. Nick McGowan (36:06.358)Or it’ll get you to Thursday’s and happy hour and then you can play with the group with him. Edward Miskie (he/him) (36:25.556)that says stop listening to other people telling you what you can and can’t do, what you should or should not be doing, what you are and are not capable of. They do not know you. Stop waiting. Start doing. Fuck them. That is literally on my desk. Nick McGowan (36:39.926)Period. Nice. I love how we all figure out the little things that work for us. Like, yeah, this is going to have this note right here. And yeah, like you get power from it. Edward Miskie (he/him) (36:54.807)yeah, I post- I post the notes all over my apartment. Nick McGowan (36:57.44)Good shit. Man, it’s been awesome having you on. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate you going through the stuff you’ve gone through and setting up the festival and all that stuff. It’s important work you’re doing, man. So before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? Edward Miskie (he/him) (37:13.362)you can find, sorry, I just like glitched out. was like, wait, what? You can find me on Instagram or TikTok at Edward Miskey. Also the film festival is called the remission film festival. It is the only festival of its kind that is operating now that is specific to cancer survivors and those impacted by cancer. Everyone who submits to it has a story that they have told through film. And you can find that at remission Film Fest on Instagram and the website as well, which is just a dot com. And that’s and we talked about a book for a hot second. That’s Cancer Musical Theater and other chronic illnesses. And the other book will be coming out later, but we’re not going to talk about that just yet. Nick McGowan (37:57.477)Awesome man, well again it’s been a pleasure having you on, I appreciate your time today. Edward Miskie (he/him) (38:01.025)Thanks anytime.

In this week's episode, Blood editor Dr. Laura Michaelis interviews authors Drs. Marion Falabrègue and Ajai Chari on their papers published in volume 146 issue 24 of Blood. The work of Dr. Falabrègue and colleagues in "Intestinal hepcidin overexpression promotes iron deficiency anemia and counteracts iron overload via DMT1 downregulation" indicates that iron absorption from the apical surface of enterocytes can be modulated through manipulation of the hepcidin-DMT1 interaction, opening new avenues for research and therapeutic manipulation. "Talquetamab plus daratumumab in multiple myeloma" features a phase 1b/2 trial of 65 heavily pretreated patients with MM, where Chari et al combined daratumumab and talquetamab, a GPRC5D-targeting bispecific antibody, reporting depletion of CD38-expressing regulatory T cells following daratumumab and impressive efficacy, with an 80% overall (57% complete) response rate and median progression-free survival of 23.3 months. This regimen is now being evaluated in a phase 3 trial. 

Andrew Billingsly, CEO at Plaswire, joins to discuss how the company recycles wind turbine blades into construction materials, timber replacements, and utility products. Plus carbon fiber recovery, zero-dust cutting technology, and plans to license blueprint factories worldwide. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Andrew Billingsly: Exactly.  Allen Hall: Are we good?  Andrew Billingsly: I’m truly impressed with this great operation you’ve got. You really moved this forward, isn’t it? That’s great. We try. Yeah.  Allen Hall: Yeah, we try. We’re not  Andrew Billingsly: trying. You do.  Allen Hall: So I, I will put an intro to this episode when we get back to the states. So I’m just gonna say, Andrew, welcome to the show. And then we will start talking.  Andrew Billingsly: Where do I look  Allen Hall: here?  Andrew Billingsly: Right? Just, just here.  Allen Hall: Yeah. Don’t worry about those. We’ll figure that out later. That’s,  Andrew Billingsly: yeah. A bit of AI in that. Yeah.  Allen Hall: Yeah.  Andrew Billingsly: And you’ll see as well. Andrew, welcome to the program. Thank you very much, Alan. Joe, really great pleasure to be here today.  Allen Hall: So we’re here to learn about PLA wire and all the great things you’re doing in Northern Ireland because you’re involved in a lot of recycling efforts in wind, outside of wind. You’re doing very novel things, which I think the world needs to hear about. Let’s just back up a minute, because not everybody. And particularly [00:01:00]in North America has heard of PLA wire, even though you, you’re all over LinkedIn. What does PLA wire do? What is this basic fundamental of PLA wire?  Andrew Billingsly: Basically, we’re a processor of polymers. Okay?  Andrew Billingsly: So that’s how we see ourselves, that’s how we frame ourselves. We’re a polymer processor with a waste management license. Uh,  Joel Saxum: I think the important thing here, and this is why I wanted to have this conversation, you and I have been talking in the background for a few years, is. The rhetoric around a lot of the world is we have this problem with recycling blades. We can’t figure it out. Nobody’s got any solutions. Um, and if they do, it’s very agricultural as we say, right? They’re just grinding them up, using ’em in this, that, and what I tell people is like, no, no, you’re incorrect here. There are people doing this. There is, there is solutions out there. It just needs to be, we need, we need to talk about it. We need to put it out there.  Andrew Billingsly: Absolutely. Uh, I fight very hard to tell the true story. Of course, there’s a [00:02:00] lot of greenwashing in every sector of every industry in the world, and those who do it right have to defend themselves. I mean, unfortunately, that’s what we have to do. Fortunately, mostly we’re able to do that if we work hard at it. For us, we do not have a problem in general, dealing with wind farm waste. Wind farm waste is for us blades. Because we’ve taken a pragmatic approach to it. We have to look at how we deal with any waste coming into our, uh, process to ensure it’s environmentally handled, that it’s handled correctly, environmentally, that it meets a price point so that whatever we do with it, we can sell that product, ensure that it’s sustainable in how we operate, and it’s fully circular. So that’s how we’ve addressed wind blades. We were invited into the industry and we worked out what was needed in the industry. But [00:03:00] before we went all full on with it, we had to make sure we could make products that was saleable, that was usable, and could be utilized within the industry wherever possible. But you thought outside of the box  Allen Hall: quite a bit because the way I think the wind turbine blade recycling efforts have gone is to say, well, we’ll, just like Joel was saying, we’ll just grind them up. You’re taking polymer outside of the wind blade world that you’ve been using in aerospace and other industries and saying the valuable part of the wind turbine blade is the fiber and the resin, whatever remains there. If I combine that with other polymers, I can create products with a lifetime that can replace other more expensive items, metal items, cement items. That is the, the, the wisdom that went into what you have done. How did you come up with that?  Andrew Billingsly: I think I was born outta the box. Frankly. I’ve been told that several times.[00:04:00] We’re a solution orientated company. Uh, I was talking recently to somebody about how we built our first factory in Northern Ireland that went up in 10 weeks. That’s 20,000 square feet. And because the pressure we were under, we had that factory erected and in operation in 10 weeks. And that’s just a fact. That’s a recorded fact. And I looked back only two years later and said, heck, what did we do there? Yeah, because we had to do it. So we did it. Yeah. We looked at the problem with the wind blade and we thought, we’ve gotta get a good solution for this. And we’d done that years before with aviation. We were presented with the challenge to deal with plastics arising from the manufacturer’s seating. Now the US produces all the plastics for that sector. It comes into Europe for manufacturing seats, a lot of it local to where our factory is, but nobody had a solution. I have to put my hands up now. I broke a few rules here. I filled two [00:05:00] barn up with this material chopped up and ready to sell, but I actually couldn’t sell it, but I knew there was a solution. So I worked on that for perhaps 18 months and then it worked. And today we are the main, uh, processor of this plastic that comes out of aircraft seating manufacturing, possibly. We still are the only one doing that.  Allen Hall: So you actually take the plastics from the manufacturer of seating and there’s a lot of scrap that’s involved in that. Andrew Billingsly: Yep.  Allen Hall: You take all that plastic waste, you bring it back into your facility, you recombine and pelletize it again so that it can be reused somewhere else.  Andrew Billingsly: Yes, that material goes into, uh, an extrusion process with another company now. Okay. Wow.  Joel Saxum: But, but that’s the same thing you’re doing in wind right now, right? The making it circular, but you’re adding or you’re, you’re adding other second use plastics to it.  Andrew Billingsly: Yeah. So our outta the box thinking was looking back in 2018, how do we grow our business [00:06:00] because recycling plastics within the extrusion world and the injection molding world. What’s getting more internal companies getting better at dealing with their own waste and putting it back into the circuit. So what’s the waste? Nobody wants. It’s the really mucky stuff. It’s this material that comes out of, for example, bio digesters that take the supermarket garbage, the yellow label food that people don’t buy because it’s really is in a bad state. And that goes for digestion and they pull outta those biodigester 10% plastic waste. Hmm. That is a really difficult product to deal with. And not only that, you also find a similar volume of waste coming maybe 24 tons a day, in some cases, sometimes more from the municipal waste processing centers as well. All this waste plastic goes for incineration. Nobody knows how to economically recycle that. So we took on that challenge and produced what we call [00:07:00] RX polymer, which is. Hm, going through pattern now. I got the number only yesterday incidentally for it. And, uh, this enables us then to combine plastics that would not normally combine. So think about polyethylene, polypropylene. Yeah, they mix, but then add in nylon, adding polyester. PET, add in styrene, adding up to 8%, uh, PVC materials. It’s an unknown for a polymer engineer, but we did that. And we cooperated with the university in Ireland to prove it. Uh, this is the technology Uni University in Shannon, and we still have an extremely good relationship with them. So we have this polymer. Along comes COVID, we worked with it. We did the deep dive. We went out to find out could we make product with it, could we make a product people wanted, and could we sell that product because what’s the point otherwise? And then after COVID. [00:08:00] We went out into the market, met with aviation, had a very substantial and transformative almost meeting with Paul Bella, director at Boeing. So by the end of the year we’d worked out along with some discussions with Air Airbus and with Tarmac Aero serve, how we could help them with their composite wastes as part of our RX polymer January, 2023. We got sucked into a, into the wind sector.  Allen Hall: Mm-hmm.  Andrew Billingsly: January, 2023. We got sucked into the wind sector with a significant phone call from Ted. We had a meeting and agreed to take their first blades. We went out bo more land and that was start of a journey.  Allen Hall: Okay. So it just calls you up and says, Andrew, I need you to start recycling our offshore, mostly offshore or all offshore blades.  Andrew Billingsly: These were initially on shore blades. On  Allen Hall: shore blades. Okay. Andrew Billingsly: And they said, did we know how to do it? Could [00:09:00]we do it?  Allen Hall: Okay?  Andrew Billingsly: And we said, yes.  Allen Hall: You said that? Yes. Without really knowing if the answer is yes.  Andrew Billingsly: Yes.  Allen Hall: Okay. I, I think that one of the things, I’m gonna back up just for a minute here. One of the things about Northern Ireland that people in the states don’t really realize is plastics and ejection molding are a focal point for Northern Ireland. Roy, which is the big plastic comb. Brush manufacturer is based in Northern Ireland, so there’s a tremendous amount of plastic knowledge, injection molding knowledge sitting right in the same area. So hearing your story just makes me think, yes, this all starts to make sense now that, that the whole region is a, uh, epicenter in it, so to speak, of how to think about plastics working with shorts and bombardier and all the now Airbus and Boeing. Those people are brilliant and you’re cut off the same limb of the tree. Right. [00:10:00] Where are these products now being used? So you now you’re getting blade from Wared and you, well, let’s talk first.  Andrew Billingsly: You have other customers besides Wared now you have some big names there. Oh, absolutely. So we do work with Airbus. We do work with Boeing on the aviation side, but we’re talking wind today. Uh, so we have Sted, we work with Eola, Scottish Power Renewables, work with GE Verona. RWE uh, a host of them actually just goes on and on, you know, and it’s very important to serve these companies as best we can. Uh, we’ve recently started working with EDF and taking first fleets from a lot of these first fleets of blades from these companies. We have a contract with BNM, which is in partnership with Ocean Wind for the future. BNM is B and Owner one of those great stories of a dirty company in the sense of producing. Fuel for, uh, households from Pete, which is extremely smoky and so forth, transforming to being the best [00:11:00] when it comes to, uh, renewables in Ireland. Wow. Wow. Yeah,  Joel Saxum: I didn’t even know you could do that. Make fuel out of Pete. I just knew you made whiskey out of it. My knowledge is not as good as your, your knowledge. Uh, but so questions for you. Then you have all these other customers coming in. You’re bringing in plastics from other areas and other sectors. How many right now as it sits, how many wind blades can you guys run through, you think? What does a yearly put throughput look like? So  Andrew Billingsly: when we get to capacity as we grow the business, we’ll be able to process up to 11,000 tons of blades on our site.  Joel Saxum: Okay.  Andrew Billingsly: Whoa. Which is a good size capacity. Yeah. Uh, far, far in excess of what we expected, but that was to do with development. We moved from putting 10% blade into our finished product to 30%. Joel Saxum: Yeah.  Andrew Billingsly: It was a big step. We achieved that in March this year, and it was just a. Happy days. And,  Joel Saxum: and when we talk product, right, we’re talking the RX polymer, but what is the end product? What can that be used for?  Andrew Billingsly: So the end product, uh, we can directly [00:12:00] replace virgin plastics in certain situations in the construction industry. Things like protection board, shuttering board and that type of thing. For, uh, precast concrete, there’s a lot of precast concrete products are manufactured because it’s easy to do with, uh, concrete and to use virgin plastics. It’s just not even thought of doing that. But with our RX polymer and the combination of a fiber base in it, we can produce precast concrete products, which outperform concrete versions. We’ve now got a polymer version, which won’t crack through temperature, variation through vibration, through wet and dry cycling, that type of thing. Wow. It’s kind of no brainer in a sense. And then on the timber replacement,  Joel Saxum: scour protection, offshore wind.  Allen Hall: There’s certain, well being in Northern Ireland, there’s a lot of wind and rain and sea and all the above. Oh yeah. It’s  Andrew Billingsly: plenty of all of those. There it is. Definitely. It’s just wet and a bit like Glasgow, plenty of rain, you [00:13:00] know, and or Seattle’s not so different actually. It’s sure. Very similar. It could be quite similar. Yeah. So, and timber replacement is a big thing because the supply of timber cannot meet demand. Yeah. To try and accelerate the supply of timber. They accelerate the growth of the trees using hydrocarbons in the form of fertilizers. And it’s not really gonna go anywhere in the right way. But to be able to put out product now, which outperforms timber for the utilities is a logical step for us. And that’s what we’ve done. Producing poles and posts, which are fiber reinforced, which outperformed timber for the utility companies. Just one design by one utility in the UK consumes 33,000 tons a year. It is madness. I know. But we can offer them a product which lasts a minimum of 30 years certified versus a timber version that because of the regulations regarding, uh, preservatives, it could only last between eight and 10 years. Allen Hall: Oh, [00:14:00] sure. Well that makes a lot of sense. So you’ve, you’ve broken through the barrier of blade recycling into now almost consumer products, industrial products, construction products. Uh. What’s next? Where are you going next? You gonna start making airplanes and cars out of this material or  Andrew Billingsly: no? That I fell outta the box actually bumping my head so I can’t go any further. Um, where do we go from this Look, we are always going to be looking to be better at what we do, so on the blade side, we have great cutting technology that everybody should look at and consider doing something at least similar. So no dust. Very important, and we are moving sometime next year. We haven’t got a date for this yet, where we’ll have a robotic cutting system with absolutely no ze, no dust at all. Zero dust. That’s amazing. Yeah.  Joel Saxum: That’s a, that is a, that’s a big problem in like the states for plane recycling. The, the [00:15:00] regulations around dust and um, and how close you can be to residential areas and siding and all those kind of things.  Andrew Billingsly: If you’re making dust and it’s landing on the ground, it’s gonna be there forever. So don’t make it.  Joel Saxum: There you go.  Andrew Billingsly: That’s the fact. Um, the idea of the robotics is also to be able to recover the carbon fiber, stay in the center of the blade.  Joel Saxum: Yeah. ‘ Andrew Billingsly: cause carbon fiber is heading towards being a shortage product. And we have the opportunity to preserve that and re reuse that product effectively. If you see the carbon fiber in a blade and the big blades, 70 meters and so forth, you go, wow, it’s pencil thickness. You don’t want to see that getting weight.  Allen Hall: Right.  Andrew Billingsly: So using expensive  Allen Hall: too. Yeah.  Andrew Billingsly: Using, yeah, it’s very expensive. Get more so, you know, we are using carbon fiber for novelty. Things like fass in cars and so forth, right. Or wrongs and other matter. But it’s utilizing a product that needs to be going into better applications. No doubt about it. So we’re going in that way to improve the cutting technology. And then [00:16:00] another area is a recyclable blade. So we are talking with the developers of the original recyclable Blade technology about should we be working with them to operate a facility to enable that future technology to become operable. It’s okay to sell the product, but are you recycling it afterwards?  Allen Hall: Right. Can you break it down and get the fiber out of it? Yeah.  Andrew Billingsly: So they’re early discussions and we’d like to progress those over time and achieve a success for everybody there.  Joel Saxum: So Audi, the, the, the facility in Ireland, you’re doing a lot of process improvement. You’re getting better and better and better, but you can, you can process a certain amount of tons there per year. Are you looking at mainland Europe, US South America? Are you, are you moving around yet or,  Andrew Billingsly: yeah. You are a mind reader, aren’t you? I think. Come on now. Look. So we are working with the crown estate. I don’t know, how do you know about the crown estate? Very, uh, influential party, uh, regarding offshore wind [00:17:00] and onshore wind. Okay. And we are working on a feasibility study with them to create a blueprint factory and put up a new facility in the United Kingdom in Scotland. Where we put, that is still under negotiation at the moment because it depends whether or not there’s gonna be a blade manufacturing facility there. Blade manufacturing waste has to be dealt with. Oh yes, it has to. And it’s been ignored and it has to be dealt with and we align to be doing that.  Allen Hall: So you would set up shop next door to the blade manufacturing facility.  Andrew Billingsly: That’s the optimal thing to do.  Allen Hall: Sure it  is.  Andrew Billingsly: Yep. And there’s various discussions taking place with more than one manufacturer about putting a facility into Scotland, but I’m not privy to discuss those things. And then in England, working with a consortium to put up a facility there which will support the offshore wind as it decommissions.  Allen Hall: Oh sure. Wow. See, we have a lot of plans. Yeah. For  Andrew Billingsly: the future. Yeah. And we real, we will realize them. Uh, the beauty of all of this [00:18:00] is the carbon saving because we are diverting products away from incineration. And if you take a blade and put into cement kilt, you’re still producing CO2.  Allen Hall: Sure. It  Andrew Billingsly: has to. And we know that’s not a long term solution because when you melt glass, glass sinks to the bottom of the furnace and one by one cement kiln say, we’ve had enough of this and it seems to affect the refractory bricks as well. Which causes deterioration and another cost for the cement companies. So we can prevent between 2.7 and 2.9 tons of CO2 production. For every ton of waste we divert from this generation.  Allen Hall: Wow. That’s tremendous.  Andrew Billingsly: That’s tremendous. Yeah. And then the products we replace in the market, the virgin plastics, the precast concrete replacements, the, the timber replacements all have high carbon numbers, but now that’s finished. Right. Yeah. So we can net up to 1.7 tons of CO2 offset saving, [00:19:00]whatever way you want to put it, for every time we process. That’s quite fantastic. Well, now we never knew these numbers. As I say, we were pulled into this industry and then we started to look at what are we doing here? And whoa, we didn’t realize. Joel Saxum: Fantastic.  Allen Hall: Well, for, for everybody who’s listening today that deals with blades and that, that’s a vast majority of our relationship has to do with blades somewhat during their life cycle. And I’m wondering what the next generation of recycling actually looks like. It’s PLA wire and they need to get a hold of you, Andrew. How would they do that? To learn more?  Andrew Billingsly: Yes. Well, we are talking with potential partners. Our way to grow is really through a licensing system.  Allen Hall: Okay.  Andrew Billingsly: A reasonable licensing system. So our intention is to put out this blueprint factory, which can be manipulated to suit the market. It can be smaller, it can be larger. The equipment for it is standard. It’s a lot of standard machines joined together in a particular way. The keys and the process and so forth. [00:20:00] So for example, we can offer a blueprint to a company and they equip it with US machinery or Mexican machinery or whatever, machinery. Sure. Yep. So they can control the cost of that. So we sell that design, sell them the engineering work to it. Work with ’em on their market surveys in advance to make sure they’re not going into a world that’s not gonna produce revenue for them. Everything has to be profitable. Assure them of the markets for the finished products, and then work on a license fee with them. Allen Hall: Okay. And they can do that by going to the website PLA wire. You can just Google PLAs Wire,  Andrew Billingsly: Google. Yeah. So you’ll find me at andrew@plaswire.com, which is easy enough for everybody, I believe. Yeah.  Allen Hall: P-L-A-S-W-I-R-E. Dot com.  Andrew Billingsly: That’s correct, Alan. Yeah. Thank you.  Allen Hall: Yeah, it’s a, it’s a really interesting website and Andrew, I’m really glad we had the time to sit down and to discuss your business because it is fascinating. It’s next generation on recycling, and it’s good to spread the word a little bit. So thank you for [00:21:00] joining us today,  Andrew Billingsly: Alan. Joel. It’s been really good for me too. It. I’m so pleased to be able to do this. Yes. And you know what you want the most fantastic podcast to listen to, I have to tell you that. Yeah. Allen Hall: Well we need to have Yon Moore. So  Andrew Billingsly: yeah, I’ll be very happy and love to be able to share our progress as we develop and just, we are always gonna be a changing organization, but always for the better. And you’re gonna understand, I guess we’re quite passionate about what we do.  Allen Hall: Yes.  Andrew Billingsly: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Yes. Congratulations and thank you for joining us.  Andrew Billingsly: Thank you very much. Yep. Perfect. Cool. Wonderful. Wow. So easy now.

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You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.I am so excited I was able to interview a parenting thought leader I greatly admire. Lenore did not disappoint! So much wisdom, and so much fun! I think you'll love this podcast episode.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Lenore Skenazy, author of “Free-Range Kids,” which grew into the Free-Range Kids movement. Now she is president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit that is making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back independence. We talk about screens, anxiety, free play, and why childhood independence matters more than ever.

In this conversation, Kiara Loucks shares her profound experiences during a health crisis that taught her the significance of community and support. She reflects on a moment of vulnerability when she had to rely on her husband for help and the intimate experience they shared before her surgery. Kiara emphasizes the importance of allowing others to be there for us in times of need and how such situations can strengthen relationships and foster personal growth. Outdoor retreats: heroutdorjourney.com Kiara on Instagram @kiara.loucks Takeaways Other people need to be in our lives sometimes. Facing health crises can reveal the strength of our relationships. Intimacy can be found in shared vulnerable moments. It’s okay to lean on others during tough times. Support from loved ones can be a source of strength. Crisis situations can deepen our connections with others. Prayer and faith can provide comfort in uncertainty. Allowing help can be a sign of strength, not weakness. People often want to step up and help when we need it. Vulnerability can lead to personal growth and understanding. Disclaimer: Links may contain affiliate links, which means we may get paid a commission at no additional cost to you if you purchase through this page. Read our full disclosure here. Watch on YouTube Show Transcript Cheryl McColgan (00:00)Hey everyone, I’m Cheryl McColgan, founder of Carol Nourish Grow, and today I’m joined by Kiara Lux. Kiara and I met this year when I competed in the fit model competition in Kentucky and she had the same coach that I did and ended up doing the same show. And I just immediately loved this woman. So what I learned. about her journey and her health stuff I had to have her on. anyway, Kiara, welcome. If you could ⁓ just tell everyone a little bit about who you are and then we’ll get into some of your health journey. Because I think it’s really interesting and I think there’s a lot of things there that will help a lot of people. Kiara Loucks (00:35)Absolutely. First off, thank you so much for having me. I’m so honored to be here. My take on our meeting is very similar. I just fell in love with you from the second you texted me asking if I wanted sourdough. We had never met. You brought me sourdough. I was like, I don’t know her, but I love her. So yeah, I’ve had quite a wild journey. Health and fitness have been at the center of my journey. Cheryl McColgan (00:43)you Kiara Loucks (00:57)Really since I was young, I’ve been an athlete my whole life in different sports that have taken me all over the world and brought wonderful people like yourself into my life. Outside of professional athletics, I work in tech on my, like my nine to five, I work on Wall Street in paid media. And then I actually am now running an organization on the other side of that. with all of the spare time called her outdoor journey, which is really focused on bridging the gap for women and families in the back country. So whether it’s survival, holistic wellness, it’s really this concept of community and education to get women and families outside, which is now actually evolving into co-ed opportunities. So in a very, very high level nutshell, that is me. My fitness journey was, I’m sure we’ll dive into it, but. I don’t think you knew this, but I’m actually over 100 pounds down from my heaviest, so that was 11 years ago. Just, think, like most people, kind of gave up and had always wanted to compete, but it was a pipe dream that never had any real legs to it until it did. So really excited to dive in with you, and I’m just excited to be able to chat with you. You’re one of my favorite people. Cheryl McColgan (02:04)I know it’s been I wanted to catch up for so long. And we just like you’ve been traveling so much and doing really exciting work with the project that you mentioned, and we’ll get into that. But before we go into all that, and we go into the weight loss thing, because that is definitely a subject that people are on this podcast are interested in. But I have to have you tell people, you to kind of just glossed over that whole professional athlete thing, tell people what you what your sport is, because I think it’s so wild. Kiara Loucks (02:07)I know. Yeah, so I’m kind of in this purgatory season right now, so not actually professionally competing in anything, but I’ve been a professional rower. I’ve been a professional bobsledder for the US and Canada. I’ve been a bodybuilder, Olympic weightlifter. We’ve been all over the map. Yeah, and I’m kind of getting back into the endurance side of things right now. I’m not done with bodybuilding or Cheryl McColgan (02:43)That’s the one. Kiara Loucks (02:54)Bodybuilding isn’t done with me yet, but we’re on a little hiatus. As you know, it kind of takes over your whole life. And I’ve lived a season for the last decade where sports is my whole life. So I’m kind of just turning my brain on for a little bit and creating and doing other things. Cheryl McColgan (03:08)Yeah, and I think that’s, it’s an interesting mindset being an athlete for most of your whole life. So you said though, at some point you kind of gave up, can you share a little bit more about that? Was there an injury? Was there something that happened in your life where things just shifted for you? And how did that go? And then how did you get back to where you are now? Kiara Loucks (03:19)Thank you. Yeah, great question. You seem like the type that’s okay to go kind of deep and heavy off the rip because that’s just life. So I had actually signed a scholarship agreement with UC Santa Barbara to play softball ⁓ once I graduated high school. And my senior year in high school, I both broke my back quite literally to vertebrae on my back in a terrible sledding accident. And then I also endured a sexual assault. So I was raped my senior year in high school. And those two, I think combined, just put me in a place I didn’t know how to cope. And so I learned growing up that food is comfort. And when we hurt, we self-soothe. And I didn’t have the tools in my toolkit to do that in a healthy way. So I started partying a lot, started eating a lot. And honestly, by the grace of God, I walked onto campus to try to rush for a sorority. I missed. I missed rush, but I had walked by the rowing recruiter tent. And some young gal shouted at me. She was like, Hey, you have really big legs. Would you want to row? And I was like, simultaneously so offended and so flattered. I was like, let’s try it. And that opened this new avenue we’ve been on for the last decade. But prior to that, I just like, like I said, I had given up and food was really my reprieve. from life. Cheryl McColgan (04:47)And I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that. And I’m so sorry that you had to go through that experience. Although often some of the great tragedies in our life really end up shaping who we are. And I think that that is definitely one of the reasons that’s contributed to you, you know, being so successful and being able to overcome all that. So, but anyway, definitely a heavy subject and thank you for being willing to share that with people. So after all that happened, you wrote in college and then let’s fast forward to like just Kiara Loucks (04:59)Delicious. Agreed. Mm-hmm. Cheryl McColgan (05:16)before we met because you had some pretty crazy health things and things happening in your life right before you decided to compete. So I’d love it if you’d kind of share that journey. Kiara Loucks (05:27)Yeah, so like I alluded to bodybuilding was a dream of mine for the last 12 years like I saw someone do it and thought it was the coolest thing and Never thought it was a realistic opportunity for me and then fast-forward lots of things changed and Decided actually a year ago that I was gonna get into bodybuilding and got into it locally it went swimmingly like I just Found a lot of success very quickly But in an extremely unhealthy way working with a coach which bodybuilding is wrought with coaches who went pro and then think that they have the license to dictate someone else’s health. So went down that rabbit hole came out of we did four shows back to back to back to back. We blitzed last fall and did really well coming into the offseason after my last show in November of last year. Cheryl McColgan (06:12)a lot. Kiara Loucks (06:20)I was following my reverse diet to a T and was putting on weight extremely rapidly and Not only was it a mental Battle it was also physically feeling out of control of my body and on top of that I started bleeding Like non-stop started presenting pregnancy symptoms had no idea what was happening in my body had just kind of taken on its own life And so it was controlling all that I could At first they thought I had cervical cancer and so we went kind of through some rounds of testing for that and then coming back in January This was like a three-month saga coming back in January found out I was pregnant and Then they thought I was having a miscarriage because I was bleeding the entire time. So I was extremely anemic I was just exhausted. I couldn’t really do much and I Would not give up training like that was the only thing I really had was just training and trying to be present for the holidays and so After they thought I had a miscarriage, my HCG levels, which are the hormones present when you are pregnant, were actually going back up. And so it was end of January, or this year, that they found out I had an egg-topic pregnancy growing in my left ovary. And we were early enough that they had attempted to treat it with chemotherapy. So methotrexate is a chemotherapy procedure that they typically will try. before they go to surgery as an intervention in order to try to get the cells to kind of reabsorb into the body. It stops everything from turning over, which my goober brain decided to still train, still try to move through all of it, even if that was just walking on the treadmill for most days. So was extremely humbling. But through that, I had one round of chemo, which was just hell for lack of a better term. and then it ended up rupturing anyway. So by rupture, I mean I was internally bleeding, had come up with a fever in the midst of all of the chemo symptoms. So for those out there who are not privy to what that looks like, your body feels like it’s on fire. I couldn’t smile, I couldn’t chew, I couldn’t laugh, I couldn’t cry. Everything from my head to my neck to my back would just seize. And so in the midst of that, I popped a fever. We went in and as we were walking into the ER, I was rupturing. And so they opened the OR middle of the night and had a surgical intervention for that. And then me being me, I needed something on the calendar. Maybe not the best way to cope, we’re learning, but I’ve always been someone that when I have something to shoot for, the in-between between here and there doesn’t really matter. We have a goal, we’re working towards something, we’re progressing, we’re… Controlling our environment for lack of better term as well. So put a show on the calendar and decided to find a new coach because like I mentioned, my previous coach was not health conscious at all. And so I found Adam who’s just a godsend and was able to actually reverse some of my endometriosis symptoms, certain things through protocol with supplementation and food. It was a miracle and we started prep while I still had chemo in my system. We were like hitting the ground running, let’s go. And that was beginning of February, March timeframe. And then we walked into the show that you and I met at, which was in Louisville. went well, not as well as I’d hoped, but it’s okay. It was still a blast and I met you. And then we did two shows right after that in Las Vegas and then in Chattanooga, Tennessee. So. Cheryl McColgan (09:57)and she’s leaving out that she won one of those shows, which I was not surprised because seeing you in person and now knowing everything that you went through leading up to that, mean, the amount of muscle that you have. Kiara Loucks (09:59)We did bring home Miss Nevada this year. I was very excited about that. Cheryl McColgan (10:17)is a testament to, I think something that people kind of lose sight of sometimes is that your muscle is a metabolic sink for a lot of things that it helps control your blood sugar. helps. It helps you survive times like what you went through. And I’m convinced that’s one reason my dad did so well with his cancer treatments over the years is because he was always really muscular. He was like Jack Lillane, basically my dad, he was like into that way before anyone else. So he’s never like huge, but he always was very concerned. He always lifted. And so I would say, you know, do you feel like both your mentality as someone that was into fitness helped you as well as the fact that you were already in such good shape to start with? Because I think you just, the outcomes are so much better if you have some muscle. Kiara Loucks (10:59)Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I think twofold. The physical side of it, there’s research to support that muscle mass is an indicator of longevity and it’s also the best way to push off atrophy in the body as we age. So knowing that no matter what sport you’re doing, having lean muscle mass is going to always be a benefit. That’s kind of the first part and it allows your body to bounce back really quickly. Like you’re a lot more resistant to… whatever life throws at you, whether it’s disease or acute injury. And so that’s kind of the first side. And then the second side is the mental side. So when I, know, as someone who’s been an athlete my whole life was told I can’t do anything, let alone like I can’t even walk on a treadmill. Mentally, I just crumbled. But then you realize and you’ll get this too, no matter what sport you do, or just lifting in general for people that just go to the gym to stay healthy. It’s not easy and it hurts. Like you are training your body to deal with things that hurt knowing full well that you’re going to be better for it. And I think that was the privilege walking into my health situation last year was that mentality that I’m going to make it through this. It sucks and it really hurts. It’s not going to last forever. I guarantee it. And I’m going to be better on the other side of it, whether that’s mentally, emotionally, spiritually, or all of the above. We’re going to be OK. Cheryl McColgan (12:26)And how so how did you get from the point? Where I mean, to me, like putting something like that on the books is just. unbelievable. And then to see the shape that you showed up in, I mean, it was just unbelievable. So can you talk about your mental state during that time a little bit? Because I think there’s, you know, whether people are an athlete or not, I think there’s always something to be learned with mindset. And I think the more that you can share about maybe that part of that and how you, you know, seemingly made it through to the other side. I mean, nobody’s saying everything’s perfect all the time, but you still move through Kiara Loucks (12:39)Thank you. Thank you. Cheryl McColgan (13:04)life, you created these amazing goals, you are still working all this time. Talk a little bit about your mindset and how you, how do you overcome that hurdle like once you were on the chemo and doing all this really crazy health stuff. Kiara Loucks (13:17)That is such a good question. Yeah, I think when life really kicks her teeth in, it’s usually there to teach us something. And I hate to be the person that’s like, it always happens for a reason, because it doesn’t always. But being able to take a really poopy situation and make meaning of it and find that meaning while you’re walking through it is really the best way to endure it. So for me, I’ve always been an incredibly independent woman. I don’t need anyone. I don’t need help. and I never ask for help. And so my husband had just gotten out of the army. So we’re actually one year free as of two days ago on Veterans Day. And when he came back, we actually had a really hard time because I had kind of established this life where he was more of an accessory than a need. And I didn’t have an issue with that. In fact, when he got home, I reminded him that I didn’t need him. I want him. And know, like all of these pieces that I think the intention was pure, but this chapter, the health chapter we’re talking about really taught me that other people need to be needed in our lives sometimes. And allowing space for that, I didn’t have an option. So there was literally a week where my husband had to help me go to the bathroom. And I still remember when we were in the OR. We didn’t know we were going to go into surgery when we went into the ER and they basically threw a pack of ammonia wipes at us as they’re opening the OR because it was like you can die relatively quickly from internal bleeding. And so they threw this bag of ammonia wipes at us and it was such an intimate moment where they were like, all right, wipe yourself down like we’re going to go open the OR. We’ll be back. And my husband and I both took a wipe and we just started cleaning things off. like prepping for surgery. And I’m standing there like, I know you’re not a believer, but I’m just gonna pray over us and the situation and where we’re going. And that whole evolution taught me it’s okay to need other people. And people in our lives are often eager for those situations where they can step up for us when we’re the ones typically stepping up for everyone else. So mentally, it allowed a lot of intimate. relationships to just flourish in my life, both my husband, my family, who all stepped in for me. And through that, it was like this mental battle to be okay not being okay on a daily basis. And then as we put the show on the calendar, things are kind of turning around, things are getting better. Then it became this super cool ethos of Everyone’s gonna hear the high school musical theme. We’re all in it together. Like it was cool that we were all in the trenches together like great We all watched movies together. Everyone helped me. It was fantastic But now we’re on the come-up together and realizing how rich that come-up was with everyone in tow And so my husband was there in Louisville. He was there in Chattanooga for Nationals Like he’s texting me constantly when I’m at shows and he’s not there Cheryl McColgan (15:58)you Kiara Loucks (16:22)It brought us so much closer together and it made me realize that win, lose or draw, I’m a better person for being in this with the people that I love building something that’s inspirational for other people. Like the number of messages I had of people who, from people who had watched the whole health journey into the prep, into the shows, into doing very well in the shows, who reached out and said like, holy shit, I’m going to get off the couch and I’m going to do this because if you can do this, like I can do that. And so it’s realizing mentally, we don’t live for ourselves. Like the fullest life we can possibly aim to live is that for others. And bodybuilding is an incredibly selfish sport, but this whole evolution turned it around into this is for my family, this is with my family, this is for other people. And I will be extremely transparent about all of the highs and the lows and everything in between. So I don’t know if that answered your question, but yeah, it was a really cool turning point for me that has. completely transcended bodybuilding into my career, into my hobbies, into my passion projects on the side. So it’s been really cool. Cheryl McColgan (17:28)Yeah, and it’s been it’s been so fun to watch as people on the outside, like you said, you had so many people rooting for you and just following along with your journey. And, you know, I guess part of our time together was like we were at the show doing this and we were in separate divisions. And so we kind of had to stick to, I guess, you know, I don’t want to say surface level conversations, but we didn’t get a chance to really dive deep into some of this stuff. So it wasn’t until later afterwards where I was watching, you know, some of your Instagram stories and Kiara Loucks (17:42)Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay. Cheryl McColgan (17:58)of the comments that people were making about your health journey and all this stuff that I really was able to see, you know, just how much you would come through. so hearing this today kind of like puts all the pieces together and just makes the whole thing even just more amazing. And I think it’s really exciting now what you’re kind of turning that into because I have a feeling that all of this And you know, just recovering after a show people that haven’t done it. It’s, know, bodybuilding is not a healthy thing. Let’s be real lifting weights is healthy, but bodybuilding is a very extreme sport. You’re getting to an extreme level of leanness, which especially for women is really hard, like on your hormones on your body, everything. And, you know, I’ve certainly experienced that. I don’t know, aftermath, for lack of a better word. ⁓ Kiara Loucks (18:27)No. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Cheryl McColgan (18:49)And it’s just a very interesting mental challenge afterwards as well as physical. And ⁓ so it wasn’t surprising to me that I saw after your show, you kind of turned to ⁓ this retreat that you ended up going on. so now I would love it if you’d share about that. Like what made you become aware of that? And is my sense right that you kind of just needed some like recharge alone time? I’d to hear just all about that, how that happened. Kiara Loucks (18:54)⁓ Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I love this. It’s like the most exciting thing in my life right now. So 100 % you’re correct. Once the show season was over, I just realized how much of my time had been spent in the gym, working, and then being a wife, being in the family. Like it’s just every day just trying to go. And one of my favorite things is spending time outside. Like I firmly believe that it is the closest place to the divine. It makes me happy. It gives me clarity. Like it is my favorite place to be. I live in Colorado. So I realized like a year went by that I hadn’t gone just to play outside with my dog. Like, okay, like I just need to get outside more. And I was feeling this void, which did you feel after the show too? It’s like this depression a little bit. Cheryl McColgan (19:45)Love it. a little bit. It’s kind of a, you know, I wish I would have done a better job documenting some of that stuff I kept meaning to, because it is just kind of a wild thing. But it never I guess, for part of it for me is because Kiara Loucks (20:11)Mm-hmm. Cheryl McColgan (20:16)I always knew that I would, you know, I’m still working, going to the gym five days a week and still just really trying to build my lean muscle for the purposes we were talking about, just making sure that I stay as healthy as possible for as long as possible and that I can lift myself off the toilet when I’m 80 years old and things like that, you know, if I’m lucky enough to make it to that age. ⁓ Kiara Loucks (20:30)Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Cheryl McColgan (20:39)So I guess in the back of my mind, it was like, well, this was an interesting process and stuff, but I was anxious to kind of get back to quote unquote normal life. Like what you’re talking about, like more time to spend time outdoors and more time to enjoy food and drinks with friends and not have to be so focused on every single bite you’re putting in your mouth. I don’t know, somehow I kind of, feel like I distracted myself from a little bit of that, but I… Kiara Loucks (20:48)normal yeah Exactly. Cheryl McColgan (21:06)I’ve read a lot of and heard a lot of other people’s stories that talk about that because this almost like well you you had these goals, the goal you got there basically. And then what you kind of go off the cliff, right? Yeah, I don’t know. I avoided that a little bit. I don’t know that sure how Kiara Loucks (21:15)Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so perfect. You know, I’m thrilled for you. did not. I just, I don’t know. Like I think if I had a body that could sustain it, which I don’t think anybody’s meant for it, I would compete all year long every year. Like I just love it so much. But when we finished nationals in Chattanooga, I just knew my body was asking for a break. Like there were just several signs that I needed to pump the, pump the breaks and chill. And so coming out of that, I realized I needed to be outside more and I just felt this void like. this one thing I’d been working for and felt meaning in, all these people invested in my story, it just was suddenly gone. And so I’m like, okay, I just need to go outside. And I had a dear girlfriend of mine actually come out and we went up to a cabin in the mountains and we were chatting and it like, I just don’t know what I’m chasing after. Like I always have something I’m chasing after and I feel like I’m missing it. And she was like, well, Kiara, you’ve been chasing outside. Like since you finished competing, all you’ve done is chase the mountains. And I’m like, well, no, no, no, like that’s just a medium. That’s a catalyst for me to find clarity. That’s not what I’m chasing. Yeah, that’s ridiculous. And sure enough, it is what I was chasing. And for the last several years, I’ve had on my vision board wanting to start a business to allow space and build a community for women to get out into the back country together. Because like all of the same things that you and I probably took away from bodybuilding, the confidence, the discipline, the community aspect, if you’re fortunate to have that, like Those are all things that I’ve found historically in the outdoors, but I think the value of the outdoors far outlasts and has much deeper lengths to it than bodybuilding. And so it’s been on my vision board for years to start a business that I can just take women outdoors and on these retreats and do cool things. And it was just another pipe dream, right? But God bless vision boards and always coming back to like ourselves and where we find meaning and purpose. And so just by happenstance, this opportunity dropped into my lap in August. So my last show of the year was middle of June, went outside a bunch, kind of just got my head screwed on a little bit for the rest of June and July. And then this opportunity dropped in my lap to go to Montana with a group called Her Outdoor Journey in August. And it was gonna be their summit, which means they were doing everything from Butchery to survival to fieldcraft to foraging to defensive shooting to Glassing which is basically understanding how to scope the side of a hill and look for animals They were doing all of this in one event. I was like alright cool I will help you guys out in trade just to go check this out because it seems kind of rad and I on a whim didn’t know anyone got in the car drove up to Montana like 12 hours And I show up and this week completely changed my life. mean, I’ve never been around a group of 20 plus women and there’s no drama, no clicks, people wanting to help, people wanting to serve, everyone having a blast. Like, and not only that, it was the skill sets that we were handed, like the education and the content. was like, I need more of this and I need to share this with as many people as I can. Like, how can I get more in the weeds on this? So I sat down with Courtney Pridi, who is the founder of her outdoor journey. And we just kind of started dreaming up how we could work together and she needed me. I needed her. Like it was this extremely serendipitous, miraculous meeting of two people who desperately needed each other. And her and I since then have walked hand in hand, just blowing the lid off of this thing. So we have like over 15 events next year, all across the continental US, Alaska and Hawaii. We’re also looking at Canada. But our mission really is to teach and empower women and get them outside. And it’s like this beautiful thing that happens when you’re learning and you’re vulnerable, when you’re outside, like all of these perfect elements that bring out the most beautiful side of people. And that’s the part that I love is nurturing these women, these people, these families, seeing how we can impact as many women and families as we can. So. Yeah, long story short, it has been the coolest thing I have found and I also fell in love with butchery out of that. So have kind of been on this whirlwind of working with feedlots and local ranchers and processing plants, understanding truly what is it that we’re eating. So going back to health and wellness, we just talked about bodybuilding is not a healthy sport. And so when you’re given a certain set macros for the day, you’ll eat trash as long as it fills those macros and you’re enjoying it. When Cheryl McColgan (26:02)Thank Kiara Loucks (26:04)Much like you, I got into this because I fell in love with taking care of myself. And so I had completely gone off path. And when I found this, it was like, ⁓ I can literally make an entire meal for me and my family off of literally just what exists out here in the back country. Understanding the seasonings, the foods that we are given naturally growing in the mountains or wherever. What Google reactions. ⁓ she is. But yeah, ⁓ so it’s just Cheryl McColgan (26:31)you Kiara Loucks (26:33)this really cool journey that’s now evolved into the butchery side of things and long tail like I would love one day to open my own high end butcher shop and do high end steak dinners for people that they get to pick right out of the case supporting local agriculture, which is a dying breed in our country right now. So bringing awareness to those things, bringing people along for the ride. I have no idea what we’re going to do with all of this, but I’m just so happy. Like I’m just right where I feel like I need to be. Cheryl McColgan (27:02)Yeah, watching some of your stories when you were on that retreat, I felt the same way. I was just so happy for you because I could just tell you were enjoying it so much and you’re in your element. And it did not surprise me afterwards that you’re like, I’m going to be a butcher. I mean, you’re crazy. I’ll get on to something. I’m just like, Oh, well, this is now this is my thing, you know, which is amazing. So so people are hearing this and they’re like, Okay, that sounds really cool. I would love to, you know, spend some time with other women out Kiara Loucks (27:10)Hmm. No! Yeah, exactly. Okay. Cheryl McColgan (27:31)doors, do all the things. And also though, I can see how maybe some people like there probably will be some people to be like, okay, I like a lot of that, but I’m not into the hunting or I like a lot of that, but I don’t know that I want to chop up a deer and skin a deer on this retreat. Tell us how that works. Kiara Loucks (27:40)What? yeah, very fair. Not expected, not expected at all. So we actually offer a whole host of opportunities for people to get on trips with us. One of the events I’m looking forward to the most is actually an adventure retreat up in Alaska. So we are literally gonna go jet ski in the glacier, ride horses, ATV, spa day. Like it is an adventure retreat. There is no hunting, there are no guns. There’s no butchery. There’s no nothing that should really kind of raise flags for some people. Knowing that, everyone has different thresholds. So if you come on any of our trips and you’re like, this part is not for me. So for example, the event that I was just talking about back in August, the defensive shooting, we had women that didn’t feel comfortable being on a range with other women who had never shot a gun. Great. They went out and had their own like they went for a hike. They read their books. They went and hung out. There’s so much freedom and liberty to do whatever you’re comfortable with. Our mission is to serve you and make sure you’re walking away with what you intended to get out of an event. So whether that’s rest and recovery, a little adventure, learning skills or trades, we do it all. And there’s never any judgment when you decide something isn’t for you. Cheryl McColgan (29:01)can you share the website and where they can find out information about the trips and do you know off the top of your head like when the next one is? Because this episode will come out fairly soon here. Kiara Loucks (29:09)Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so our next one coming up is actually our first winter retreat in Yellowstone. So you can find out more at heroutdorjourney.com or on Instagram at heroutdorjourney. And we’re actually just launching all of our events for next year. So take a look. We actually have everything from, like I said, the adventure retreats to archery, long range shooting, you name it. We got it. And we also have payment plans. So knowing that some of these are maybe a little bit more expensive, we do have payment plans and we also have gift cards. So knowing the holidays are coming up, if you want to gift some special lady in your life the time of her life and change her world forever, we are your people. So give us a shout. Cheryl McColgan (29:52)Awesome. And on top of that, where can people connect with you personally and kind of follow along with your journey? ⁓ You post somewhat frequently Instagram, but I don’t know if you have any other socials that you want to share. Kiara Loucks (30:03)Yeah, yeah, no, Instagram is the best. As I’m kind of defining this new chapter of my life, I’ve tried to be a little more conscientious about what I’m posting and how I’m presenting to the world. So we’re gonna get back in the saddle here pretty soon with more consistent posts and all sorts of exciting stuff going on in the world. But yeah, follow along at at Chiara.Lowx. Yeah, at Chiara.Lowx. My brain is halfway here. Yeah, there you go. Cheryl McColgan (30:25)One, I’ll have it in the show notes as well if for some reason you can’t find her. Well, Kiara, it’s been so wonderful catching up with you again today and ⁓ sharing more of your journey that I was not aware of. And I’m really excited for everything that’s going to happen next. And I will be following along to see what amazing things you do from here. Kiara Loucks (30:43)thank you. And thank you again for having me on. You’re just one of my favorite people, even though we haven’t spent a ton of time together, obviously. But sourdough, you won my heart forever. So thank you. Cheryl McColgan (30:53)It’s my love language. All right, take care and we’ll see you again next time. Kiara Loucks (30:55)I’m here for it. Sounds good. Thank you.

Welcome back to the 274th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 274th episode we bring you a Duet Review of Love You Forever And More Munsch, based on five beloved children's books by Robert Munsch, adapted for the stage by Stephen Colella and Sue Miner, co-directed by Colella and Karen Gilodo, presented at Young People's Theatre. Join Ryan Borochovitz and special guest (his mom) Diana Rosenthal, as they talk all about memorable melodies, noisy imaginations, and how parents can use ladders to let their children know they love them. Love You Forever And More Munsch is playing at Young People's Theatre (165 Front St E, Toronto, ON) until March 21, 2026. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.youngpeoplestheatre.org/shows-tickets/love-you-forever-and-more-munsch/ This review contains many SPOILERS for Love You Forever And More Munsch. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [25:56] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Diana Rosenthal – Instagram: @bkind2allkinds Ryan Borochovitz – [Just send all that love to CoH instead; he won't mind!]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.comCHAPTERS: 0:00 – Intro: You Agreed to This5:37 – Pre-Spoiler 25:50 – SPOILERS from here on out 26:38 – Mortimer's Framing Device 40:09 – Lights & Sounds 48:33 – You're Out of Order! 57:48 – On Ladders & Tennis Rackets 1:01:35 – Sign Off

Welcome back to the 275th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 275th episode we bring you a Duet Review of he Herald, written and directed by Jill Connel, presented in its world premiere by It Could Still Happen and Buddies in Bad Times Theatre. Join Mackenzie Horner and Ryan Borochovitz, as they discuss Herculean labours, manosphere argonauts, and the things they've barely retained from theatre school. The Herald is playing at Buddies in Bad Times Theatre (12 Alexander Street, Toronto, ON) until March 14th, 2026. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://buddiesinbadtimes.com/show/the-herald/ This review contains many SPOILERS for The Herald. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [19:35] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Ryan Borochovitz – [Just send all that love to CoH instead; he won't mind!]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Tiff and Trish break down what it means to have the right person in the right chair that's best for your practice. This means gauging comfort levels and the ability to stay calm, but it also means supporting each position so they feel like they can win at their job. Listeners are invited to review their positions based on what personality would thrive there — not only to increase treatment, but to make everyone's lives better, too. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are here today with, honestly, really fun one. These are some of my favorite subjects, the things that we talk about on here. I tell you guys that all the time, but I have Ms. Trish here with us today. Her internal nickname, Dental A Team name, for all of her clients, you guys can use this, is Tada. There's all kinds of reasons for it. We don't need to hash out today, but just know Tada is here. And I know I've said this on the podcast before, but if you're new here, you haven't heard it yet, I love.   podcasting with these women and I love also handpicking the topics. get topics given to us from our marketing company. We have a lot of input and say on them as the consultants, but really we just kind of look, I look ahead and I'm like, that's what we're doing in the month of March. So fantastic. And then I kind of handpick which consultants I want because I love when   I get to watch someone and partake with someone speaking on things that they're passionate about, that they truly thrive in and they love. And Trish, this topic specifically today, I know I tell you guys this, I don't know if you believe me or not, maybe you do, maybe you don't, but I know this is something that lights you up and I'm excited to be here with you. Thank you for blocking your calendar for me. Thank you for getting this set up. know it's like, both of us are like a little chaotic storms.   when it comes to things like this. So I know both of us were like frantically getting ready. So thank you. How are you today? And how excited are you to be here? Like just, you know.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (01:24) Thanks. ⁓   Thank you. Thank you.   I'm doing great. I always love it when I get to podcast with you.   The Dental A Team (01:34) Thank you, thank you. I ⁓ feel like all of you ladies bring your own sense of ease to podcasting for me, which is fantastic, because then I don't feel like totally exhausted by the end, so thank you. ⁓ Something you're really phenomenal at is people, Trish. I think you read people really well. I think you read people quickly, and I think that it's very easy for you to determine.   where people should sit or what they should be doing, what they're really great at. It's very easy for you to walk into a room and say, my gosh, this person is born to be a treatment coordinator. She is born to be a billing representative. you mentioned, gosh, what were we on? We were on some call this week. And you mentioned that you were a really great treatment coordinator. And I think we did it. It was on our coaching call we did together.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (02:24) Yes.   The Dental A Team (02:24) last week and you mentioned that you are a phenomenal treatment coordinator and is your passion and I think that reading people piece is part of that. It's part of who you are, it's part of your personality and it's part of what makes you a phenomenal consultant but also what fed into that piece of treatment coordinating for you and I think Trish if I had to read you correctly I think you love it and I think it lights you up to be able to read people and get people established in something they can be passionate about.   because you can read personalities. So very easy to see why this kind of topic we're doing, know, personality versus experience when it comes to team members. Very easy to see why that was such an easy fit for me to choose you to be here today. And before we dive in too much Trish, I want to ask what, ⁓ gosh, what about reading people and being able to peg that?   What do you love the most? What do you love when you walk into a room and you can say, my gosh, this, like what lights you up the most about it?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (03:28) I think what lights me up the most is like I can easily target somebody who is comfortable talking. So if somebody just kind of looks like their, you know, their shoulders are down, they look like they're at ease, that's going to be a pretty easy person to go and approach. Then you have your people that smile and they obviously they still look very friendly, but there is, it's, again, Tiff, it's like they don't have something written on their forehead. So it is really a read.   It's an internal emotional read that I have where it's like, you know what, that person actually probably doesn't want me just going up to them, just like starting a big conversation. And even if I do, you can read a person's body language and see how they're engaging back. And if the engagement back is kind of light, then like that's not a person that you push on. I'm not gonna make them have a conversation with me about a recent wedding they attended if they...   The Dental A Team (04:04) Yeah.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (04:24) clearly see if it's showing that they just kind of don't want to do that. So I don't know, like, I don't think there's a book that you can read on how to do this. Maybe there is. I, I personally think that this is something that you either kind of have or you don't. That's just my, that's just my thoughts on that. because again, I mean, some people really struggle, really struggle with knowing how to read a room. I'm sure they don't want to, but yeah, if there was a secret sauce, I would   love to share it, but I do think it's kind of an internal characteristic that you may or may not be born with.   The Dental A Team (05:01) For sure, I totally agree. actually, have my son, you he's 17 now, the recording of this and we've always, myself and just the people on my side that have been involved in his life and forming him into the kid that he is, we were always really big on being like socially aware and really just aware of his surroundings. One, because you know, as a parent, was a single mom scared to death that somebody's gonna steal my kid, you know.   So I made sure like he was always insanely, intentional about watching his surroundings, but then also being the one that's courteous to everyone else. Like you just don't be in the way and not so much that you make yourself small, but don't be in the way because it's very easy to just be like, ⁓ awesome. Yep, you go around, know, like don't make it a thing. Just be super aware. And I know that Brody's got that kind of intentionality and that intuitiveness that   he can read people as well. And I wonder, often I watch him do it, and I'm like, gosh, is that because you're so aware of your surroundings and you're watching for your next move, right? Because I know for me, it's like, where am I going to step next even of a crowded grocery store? What's the easiest path? When I'm driving down the street, well, which lane is going to be the easiest for me that I'm not an inconvenience to other people as well? So kind of like double dipping there.   So I watch him do these things and I think to myself, there are so many people that are not aware of their surroundings. Is that a piece of it, right? And like you said, it's kind of ingrained as personality. Anyway, it's high tangent there, but I think one thing to do is to really ramp up your awareness of present, I guess really, right? It's being present with where you are at and the people that you're with. Because when we're in our heads ahead or behind,   we're not here and we're not intentionally paying attention to the things going on in the people around us. How do you feel like then? I mean, where can we talk about hiring? We can talk about all the pieces, but realistically, we get the biggest question is like, gosh, do I hire for personality? Do I hire for ⁓ experience? Do they have to have dental experience? Do they have to have management experience? But really, I think this also applies to looking at the team that you have today and making sure that   Tricia Lee Ackerman (06:59) Anyway.   The Dental A Team (07:23) We say this all the time, right? Person, right? Seed. It's a massive piece. And I think these pieces you can take and apply to both. When it comes to personality, Trish, and it comes to not just like, that's one thing, to be able to read personalities and be able to be in a room and navigate the situation, but personality versus experience. How do you help practices differentiate the two, even in any situation at all?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (07:50) Well, obviously, ideally, personality and experience at a high level, both. That's perfect. That's awesome. But but more than more times than than than not, we do have that situation where the doctor will say like she was really not, you know, hiring for an office manager. She was really nice. She was really great. She was all these things. But that's awesome. However, that's a position where we do need to see the skill set.   What type of leadership ⁓ experience does she have? And maybe she doesn't have any, but can we set her up for some? And how quick, how sharp is this individual? Because if they're really, really, I use the word cool. We can train skills, but we really can't train cool. You kind of either cool or you're not. And if they really like this person and they're sharp, then maybe we should entertain giving them some leadership activity homework.   and see how that comes. If it's somebody that has all the experience in the world, say like as a treatment coordinator, they've been doing it for a very long time, but they're kind of cold, they're kind of direct, ⁓ they kind of really don't know how to like maybe laugh or break some ice. Is that really the best treatment coordinator? Because that is really a role where you have got to be able to do both.   The Dental A Team (09:12) Yeah.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (09:15) And that's where I shined and loved it so much because I was able to read the room and I was so passionate about what I was actually getting ready to sell to them. But I could also tell if, if, mean, if they started sweating and like, okay, slow down, back up, let's start to find like what's happening with this person. So the personality, you know, that's, that's great. Most offices are looking for somebody that knows how to smile and   and things like that. The skill set, it doesn't always have to be right on point as long as we can give them some tools slash tests, which we can and we could deploy those to monitor like almost like their sharp skill set. Like how sharp are they? How quick are they? Because if they're nice and quick and sharp, it might just be our person. Some of the best people that I have hired through the years had zero dental experience, but they were sharp.   They were quick. were in the restaurant industry. That's an amazing industry because people know how multi-task like crazy they can order drinks, they can order food, they can serve, and they have to do it all with a smile because their tips depend on it. those are perfect. That particular group of people are excellent examples because most of them do have the personality and they're sharp. Easy to.   The Dental A Team (10:16) Mm, I agree.   Yep.   Yeah, I agree.   I totally agree with that. have hired, I tell practices all the time, when you're at a restaurant and you have a hostess or a server or somebody that you love, give them your card, whether you're hiring now or not, give them your card. ⁓ I totally agree. I think too, as you're chatting through all of that, I agree 100 % with all of it. And I'm thinking too, as you're saying that, yes, you're front office lead, you've got to have the leadership skills, you got to have these pieces, and does the dental   Is the dental necessary? Not necessarily, right? My best treatment coordinator ever, she didn't have any dental experience, but she loved people and she believed in the product, like you said. So she didn't even, half the time she didn't even know what she was selling. She was just like, I know that they said this was going to make you healthier. So like, why would you not get this done? And I was like, this is wild. Like, it's an SRP. Yeah, yeah. And they would schedule and it was great. And they would prepay, right? And it was like, gosh, she blew my mind with it, but she believed so much in the people being healthier.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (11:26) And it works. Yep.   The Dental A Team (11:36) that she just did it. But I'm also thinking as you're saying this, yes, there are personality pieces for that that's necessary. And then it's like, yes, there's also personality pieces for our billing coordinator. So I think that's where the avatar comes into play, right? And knowing what are the goals of this position and what kind of a personality can do that? Because you're bubbly, like for sure this person can do billing.   Right, I can do billing, Trish, can do billing. If we sat down, we can do it. But I'm gonna be bored out my mind and it's gonna take me 10 times longer than the personality who was built for it. Because my personality, I need to be, I need to move. I need to move more, I need less details. I am not a detailed person. And I need to just, I need more interaction. So that billing personality might be someone who's a little bit more muted, a little bit, you know.   and more introverted, ⁓ detail oriented, loves the numbers, wants to dig in, and you probably are gonna want some experience if you can find it, but again, a skill set that can be taught. How do you help your practices kind of navigate those avatars?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (12:51) Just yesterday, literally just yesterday, this was a topic. And it's an office that does have, that like the skillsets is there for all of the team members. However, they weren't in the right seats. So when I started digging a little, because of course case acceptance is always something that I really want to target, because what does that do? It increases production and it's just a big win. Okay. But what we discovered was that,   The Dental A Team (13:02) Awesome.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (13:18) the team member that was actually more say like the checkout seat that was kind of finalizing and kind of closing up the treatment plan was, was like really shy when it came to money, ⁓ really shy when it came to like asking for any kind of deposit. And so what we found was that when that particular team member is in that seat, we had less people scheduling.   So meanwhile, I had gotten to know this front office team a little bit more over the last even just six weeks. And I thought to myself, hold on a second. I know exactly who needs to be in that seat all the time. So no more rotating of seats. We're going to lock down this chair is for that person, this chair. And I had ⁓ a touch base this morning with the O.M. They're already feeling like less anxious.   because the person that is now there is good at both. She has no problem, you know, wrapping up a financial piece of things, but she can also talk dentistry if any of those questions do come up. we, and that was a fun exercise. I do like doing that. Like, let's look at your team. Who are all these people and where did they shine? ⁓ okay. But they're sterile tech. Maybe just maybe.   The Dental A Team (14:19) Yep.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (14:42) We could just hire a sterile tech and this could be your main treatment coordinator. So evaluating those seats and I think consistently evaluating the seats, because we do evolve with change, that is a really successful and not time consuming project that I think a lot of OMS and doctors could and should do regularly.   The Dental A Team (15:03) I totally agree with you. I love that you just did that yesterday. ⁓ And I love that you keyed in on the rotation of seats because I feel like a lot of practices do and I hear a lot of managers and team members and doctors say, yes, but I want everyone to know how to do everything. Cool. I do too. I want you to be able to fill in if someone decides to take a vacation. Absolutely agree with you. I don't want things to go left undone. But being responsible for everything.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (15:21) Yes.   The Dental A Team (15:31) because no one's responsible for anything, and then that means no one's, everyone's responsible for nothing, is a whole lot of things not getting done effectively and a ton of underlying stress that people don't even realize they're feeling. The anxiety of not knowing how to win in your position or not feeling fully confident in the things that you're doing because you're doing so many things that require different brain sets.   You actually, you, you feel it, but you really don't know that it's happening until you get stabilized in that seat with clear goals and a clear way to win and in a space and a seat that you thrive in. You're like, I feel free. Like I feel so much less stressed and I didn't even realize I was stressed. It's, so much fun to watch. And if you've ever felt it, you know what that feels like and Trish.   you keying in on that right now might be to me at least the biggest piece of this whole podcast because so many practices and I think both of us experience this fight that like no we all do it right we all do it we all we help each other we don't want to be a team that can't help each other ⁓ golly if you become a team that can't help each other because you're in a treatment coordinator seat instead of this float seat where you're doing 15 000 things that's a different issue   Tricia Lee Ackerman (16:44) Yes.   The Dental A Team (16:57) That's completely separate and your culture needs to be fixed. But right now, you're not helping each other. You're actually holding each other back and you're, as the manager, I think I'm gonna just, hard truth, as the manager and the doctor, allowing a space like that to exist is a detriment to the people that you've hired. And it, to me, says, I don't think you can do one thing really well, so we're gonna do all of the things all together to make sure nothing gets missed.   And in reality, there's so much stuff that gets missed.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (17:31) Yeah, a lot of missed opportunity for growth there. And it can be so, and now like this, in this case, the gal that is now in this seat and she's not moving, she's going to be so empowered. And then the other two that we moved into the seats that are appropriate for them, same thing. They're going to feel so empowered. And that, and I'm looking forward to a check in with them in two weeks. That I really truly am, but.   The Dental A Team (17:34) for sure.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (17:56) That's the key. The right people, right seats, we say it all the time, almost every day to at least one client or more. That's the ticket. Who are your people? Where do they shine? Where are they currently sitting? And where could a better seat be for them?   The Dental A Team (18:15) Yeah, yeah, and I think what are the seats that you have and what's the goal of that seat? Because when we don't know, when we just say, well, I've got five front office team members or three front office team members, cool, but what are those seats? Well, we have two that sit at the front and then one that sits in the back. Okay, but like, what is the seat? So if we're saying we've got a check-in, a check-out, and an office manager who does billing and treatment planning, great.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (18:30) Right, I did.   The Dental A Team (18:44) We got five seats, label the seats. What is the seat? What is their main goal, the main duty of that seat? And how can they win in that seat? I did that exercise. I think it's very similar to what you just did, Trish. I did this with a big practice, three doctors, lots of hygienists, lots of, and I've done it with, we've both done it with so many practices. The big guys are the ones that are the most fun to untangle because those webs are deep.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (19:08) Yes.   The Dental A Team (19:11) But we started untangling them and the doctors were like, wait, I like, want to, I want to help with this. And they untangled the seats and the goals. And even as far as three metrics per position in the front office that they can say this position is winning so that now that front office gal can take this job description and say, great, these are the things that I'm going to do. This is my operations manual for my seat.   on how I'm going to get there. And just being able to have that clarity alone, even for the doctors, they think it opened up a ton for them and I can't wait till they deliver it to the team because it's just, it's empowering. And when you're hiring, that's how you know if you've interviewed the right person. Does this, this seat, the seat that I've created, the job description, the goal and the metrics, what kind of a person will thrive   reaching those. I'm not going to put a like introverted, great with numbers person. I want great with numbers for a treatment coordinator for sure, but they're not selling anything. They're just reviewing it, which is fine, but if you want a different result, you've got to do it differently.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (20:29) Something else that comes up Tiff quite often is, and this can be such a hard decision for a doctor, they might have like their best dental assistant that they've ever had. And those two work so well side by side. However, that particular say dental assistant could be an absolutely incredible treatment coordinator. But when we bring that to the doctor, that's when they're like,   because they just can't imagine not having that person side by side with them as their assistant. And the doctors that do recognize it and go, ⁓ my gosh, you were so on to something. Those are amazing transitions because number one, that dental assistant that we're even considering putting into like a full-time treatment coordinator role, she knows that doctor inside and out. She believes in him. I she knows everything about him, the dentist.   that is somebody that can really grow a business, then we just hire, we replace the dental assistant and sharpen those skills with the same ones, the one that stepped out. But like that is also something that doctors don't, sometimes they don't even entertain that idea. We have to entertain it for them. And then when they see that, it's like, and I can only imagine, it's very scary for them to lose their key person sitting next to them all day, every day, but it can also be a,   The Dental A Team (21:45) I agree.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (21:54) really great move.   The Dental A Team (21:56) I totally agree with you. Totally agree. Love it. Thank you. I knew this topic would be fun for both of us. We both kind of love moving people around. I love seeing, I love when we can move someone, like you just said, like giving someone the empowerment to try something they've maybe not really done before, but that growth opportunity to go from chair side dental assistant to treatment coordinator and just like learn a new skill set is, it's super cool. Super fun to watch. So.   Thank you Trish. I think if I had to pick out some action items for everyone, I think based on what Trish is saying here, evaluate the people you have. Look at their personalities and look at their skill sets. Trish, said, like, where do they thrive? So what do they love to do? Oftentimes, too, when I say that, I like to look at their personal lives. Like, what kind of sports are they playing? Like, what activities are they doing? Are they knitting? Are they pottery? Are they, you know, are they volleyball players? Like, look at their personalities.   And then also look at your positions and what personality would thrive in that position, not only to get us more treatment on the schedule, but to fulfill them, to make their lives better, to make them happy, to make them love where they work, and in turn, make you love where you work. So I'd say go evaluate your people, evaluate your positions, and get the personality straight. Build those avatars and take a look. Trish, anything you want to add before we wrap this up?   Tricia Lee Ackerman (23:23) don't think so. really don't. The disc test, maybe I'll toss that in. That's always kind of good one. Doctors do love to do that. ⁓ You know, evaluate those. Everybody can even do them together when you hire somebody else on or if you're considering. and you know, vibe checks. We always talk about that. Do your vibe check. Let your team do a vibe check. And again, how's their personality? Does that personality fit the actual practice? Some practices are full of spunk and fun and craziness. I see some of these teams on Instagram and they just   The Dental A Team (23:24) Awesome. Yeah.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (23:52) track me up, that would be a great one for fun. And you know, some doctors are not. So you might not want to bring in say like a clown into a really conservative practice. They might not mesh. So evaluating personalities slash the skill set. Yes, it's not always that easy, but we can certainly help. And ⁓ once you do get those right personalities in those right seats, like you said, Tim, everybody wins.   The Dental A Team (24:21) Yeah, I love it. Thank you. All right, guys, you heard it here. Go do the things. Trish, this was phenomenal. Thank you for taking this journey with me. Everyone, you know where to get ahold of us. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com or leave us five-star review below or both. We love both of those. So we can't wait to hear from you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Trish, thank you.   Tricia Lee Ackerman (24:29) Thank you.   Thanks, Tiff.

Join Kyle, Nader, Vibhu, and swyx live at NVIDIA GTC next week!Now that AIE Europe tix are ~sold out, our attention turns to Miami and World's Fair!The definitive AI Accelerator chip company has more than 10xed this AI Summer:And is now a $4.4 trillion megacorp… that is somehow still moving like a startup. We are blessed to have a unique relationship with our first ever NVIDIA guests: Kyle Kranen who gave a great inference keynote at the first World's Fair and is one of the leading architects of NVIDIA Dynamo (a Datacenter scale inference framework supporting SGLang, TRT-LLM, vLLM), and Nader Khalil, a friend of swyx from our days in Celo in The Arena, who has been drawing developers at GTC since before they were even a glimmer in the eye of NVIDIA:Nader discusses how NVIDIA Brev has drastically reduced the barriers to entry for developers to get a top of the line GPU up and running, and Kyle explains NVIDIA Dynamo as a data center scale inference engine that optimizes serving by scaling out, leveraging techniques like prefill/decode disaggregation, scheduling, and Kubernetes-based orchestration, framed around cost, latency, and quality tradeoffs. We also dive into Jensen's “SOL” (Speed of Light) first-principles urgency concept, long-context limits and model/hardware co-design, internal model APIs (https://build.nvidia.com), and upcoming Dynamo and agent sessions at GTC.Full Video pod on YouTubeTimestamps00:00 Agent Security Basics00:39 Podcast Welcome and Guests07:19 Acquisition and DevEx Shift13:48 SOL Culture and Dynamo Setup27:38 Why Scale Out Wins29:02 Scale Up Limits Explained30:24 From Laptop to Multi Node33:07 Cost Quality Latency Tradeoffs38:42 Disaggregation Prefill vs Decode41:05 Kubernetes Scaling with Grove43:20 Context Length and Co Design57:34 Security Meets Agents58:01 Agent Permissions Model59:10 Build Nvidia Inference Gateway01:01:52 Hackathons And Autonomy Dreams01:10:26 Local GPUs And Scaling Inference01:15:31 Long Running Agents And SF ReflectionsTranscriptAgent Security BasicsNader: Agents can do three things. They can access your files, they can access the internet, and then now they can write custom code and execute it. You literally only let an agent do two of those three things. If you can access your files and you can write custom code, you don't want internet access because that's one to see full vulnerability, right?If you have access to internet and your file system, you should know the full scope of what that agent's capable of doing. Otherwise, now we can get injected or something that can happen. And so that's a lot of what we've been thinking about is like, you know, how do we both enable this because it's clearly the future.But then also, you know, what, what are these enforcement points that we can start to like protect?swyx: All right.Podcast Welcome and Guestsswyx: Welcome to the Lean Space podcast in the Chromo studio. Welcome to all the guests here. Uh, we are back with our guest host Viu. Welcome. Good to have you back. And our friends, uh, Netter and Kyle from Nvidia. Welcome.Kyle: Yeah, thanks for having us.swyx: Yeah, thank you. Actually, I don't even know your titles.Uh, I know you're like architect something of Dynamo.Kyle: Yeah. I, I'm one of the engineering leaders [00:01:00] and a architects of Dynamo.swyx: And you're director of something and developers, developer tech.Nader: Yeah.swyx: You're the developers, developers, developers guy at nvidia,Nader: open source agent marketing, brev,swyx: and likeNader: Devrel tools and stuff.swyx: Yeah. BeenNader: the focus.swyx: And we're, we're kind of recording this ahead of Nvidia, GTC, which is coming to town, uh, again, uh, or taking over town, uh, which, uh, which we'll all be at. Um, and we'll talk a little bit about your sessions and stuff. Yeah.Nader: We're super excited for it.GTC Booth Stunt Storiesswyx: One of my favorite memories for Nader, like you always do like marketing stunts and like while you were at Rev, you like had this surfboard that you like, went down to GTC with and like, NA Nvidia apparently, like did so much that they bought you.Like what, what was that like? What was that?Nader: Yeah. Yeah, we, we, um. Our logo was a chaka. We, we, uh, we were always just kind of like trying to keep true to who we were. I think, you know, some stuff, startups, you're like trying to pretend that you're a bigger, more mature company than you are. And it was actually Evan Conrad from SF Compute who was just like, you guys are like previousswyx: guest.Yeah.Nader: Amazing. Oh, really? Amazing. Yeah. He was just like, guys, you're two dudes in the room. Why are you [00:02:00] pretending that you're not? Uh, and so then we were like, okay, let's make the logo a shaka. We brought surfboards to our booth to GTC and the energy was great. Yeah. Some palm trees too. They,Kyle: they actually poked out over like the, the walls so you could, you could see the bread booth.Oh, that's so funny. AndNader: no one else,Kyle: just from very far away.Nader: Oh, so you remember it backKyle: then? Yeah I remember it pre-acquisition. I was like, oh, those guys look cool,Nader: dude. That makes sense. ‘cause uh, we, so we signed up really last minute, and so we had the last booth. It was all the way in the corner. And so I was, I was worried that no one was gonna come.So that's why we had like the palm trees. We really came in with the surfboards. We even had one of our investors bring her dog and then she was just like walking the dog around to try to like, bring energy towards our booth. Yeah.swyx: Steph.Kyle: Yeah. Yeah, she's the best,swyx: you know, as a conference organizer, I love that.Right? Like, it's like everyone who sponsors a conference comes, does their booth. They're like, we are changing the future of ai or something, some generic b******t and like, no, like actually try to stand out, make it fun, right? And people still remember it after three years.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. You know what's so funny?I'll, I'll send, I'll give you this clip if you wanna, if you wanna add it [00:03:00] in, but, uh, my wife was at the time fiance, she was in medical school and she came to help us. ‘cause it was like a big moment for us. And so we, we bought this cricket, it's like a vinyl, like a vinyl, uh, printer. ‘cause like, how else are we gonna label the surfboard?So, we got a surfboard, luckily was able to purchase that on the company card. We got a cricket and it was just like fine tuning for enterprises or something like that, that we put on the. On the surfboard and it's 1:00 AM the day before we go to GTC. She's helping me put these like vinyl stickers on.And she goes, you son of, she's like, if you pull this off, you son of a b***h. And so, uh, right. Pretty much after the acquisition, I stitched that with the mag music acquisition. I sent it to our family group chat. Ohswyx: Yeah. No, well, she, she made a good choice there. Was that like basically the origin story for Launchable is that we, it was, and maybe we should explain what Brev is andNader: Yeah.Yeah. Uh, I mean, brev is just, it's a developer tool that makes it really easy to get a GPU. So we connect a bunch of different GPU sources. So the basics of it is like, how quickly can we SSH you into a G, into a GPU and whenever we would talk to users, they wanted A GPU. They wanted an A 100. And if you go to like any cloud [00:04:00] provisioning page, usually it's like three pages of forms or in the forms somewhere there's a dropdown.And in the dropdown there's some weird code that you know to translate to an A 100. And I remember just thinking like. Every time someone says they want an A 100, like the piece of text that they're telling me that they want is like, stuffed away in the corner. Yeah. And so we were like, what if the biggest piece of text was what the user's asking for?And so when you go to Brev, it's just big GPU chips with the type that you want withswyx: beautiful animations that you worked on pre, like pre you can, like, now you can just prompt it. But back in the day. Yeah. Yeah. Those were handcraft, handcrafted artisanal code.Nader: Yeah. I was actually really proud of that because, uh, it was an, i I made it in Figma.Yeah. And then I found, I was like really struggling to figure out how to turn it from like Figma to react. So what it actually is, is just an SVG and I, I have all the styles and so when you change the chip, whether it's like active or not it changes the SVG code and that somehow like renders like, looks like it's animating, but it, we just had the transition slow, but it's just like the, a JavaScript function to change the like underlying SVG.Yeah. And that was how I ended up like figuring out how to move it from from Figma. But yeah, that's Art Artisan. [00:05:00]Kyle: Speaking of marketing stunts though, he actually used those SVGs. Or kind of use those SVGs to make these cards.Nader: Oh yeah. LikeKyle: a GPU gift card Yes. That he handed out everywhere. That was actually my first impression of thatNader: one.Yeah,swyx: yeah, yeah.Nader: Yeah.swyx: I think I still have one of them.Nader: They look great.Kyle: Yeah.Nader: I have a ton of them still actually in our garage, which just, they don't have labels. We should honestly like bring, bring them back. But, um, I found this old printing press here, actually just around the corner on Ven ness. And it's a third generation San Francisco shop.And so I come in an excited startup founder trying to like, and they just have this crazy old machinery and I'm in awe. ‘cause the the whole building is so physical. Like you're seeing these machines, they have like pedals to like move these saws and whatever. I don't know what this machinery is, but I saw all three generations.Like there's like the grandpa, the father and the son, and the son was like, around my age. Well,swyx: it's like a holy, holy trinity.Nader: It's funny because we, so I just took the same SVG and we just like printed it and it's foil printing, so they make a a, a mold. That's like an inverse of like the A 100 and then they put the foil on it [00:06:00] and then they press it into the paper.And I remember once we got them, he was like, Hey, don't forget about us. You know, I guess like early Apple and Cisco's first business cards were all made there. And so he was like, yeah, we, we get like the startup businesses but then as they mature, they kind of go somewhere else. And so I actually, I think we were talking with marketing about like using them for some, we should go back and make some cards.swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I remember, you know, as a very, very small breadth investor, I was like, why are we spending time like, doing these like stunts for GPUs? Like, you know, I think like as a, you know, typical like cloud hard hardware person, you go into an AWS you pick like T five X xl, whatever, and it's just like from a list and you look at the specs like, why animate this GP?And, and I, I do think like it just shows the level of care that goes throughout birth and Yeah. And now, and also the, and,Nader: and Nvidia. I think that's what the, the thing that struck me most when we first came in was like the amount of passion that everyone has. Like, I think, um, you know, you talk to, you talk to Kyle, you talk to, like, every VP that I've met at Nvidia goes so close to the metal.Like, I remember it was almost a year ago, and like my VP asked me, he's like, Hey, [00:07:00] what's cursor? And like, are you using it? And if so, why? Surprised at this, and he downloaded Cursor and he was asking me to help him like, use it. And I thought that was, uh, or like, just show him what he, you know, why we were using it.And so, the amount of care that I think everyone has and the passion, appreciate, passion and appreciation for the moment. Right. This is a very unique time. So it's really cool to see everyone really like, uh, appreciate that.swyx: Yeah.Acquisition and DevEx Shiftswyx: One thing I wanted to do before we move over to sort of like research topics and, uh, the, the stuff that Kyle's working on is just tell the story of the acquisition, right?Like, not many people have been, been through an acquisition with Nvidia. What's it like? Uh, what, yeah, just anything you'd like to say.Nader: It's a crazy experience. I think, uh, you know, we were the thing that was the most exciting for us was. Our goal was just to make it easier for developers.We wanted to find access to GPUs, make it easier to do that. And then all, oh, actually your question about launchable. So launchable was just make one click exper, like one click deploys for any software on top of the GPU. Mm-hmm. And so what we really liked about Nvidia was that it felt like we just got a lot more resources to do all of that.I think, uh, you [00:08:00] know, NVIDIA's goal is to make things as easy for developers as possible. So there was a really nice like synergy there. I think that, you know, when it comes to like an acquisition, I think the amount that the soul of the products align, I think is gonna be. Is going speak to the success of the acquisition.Yeah. And so it in many ways feels like we're home. This is a really great outcome for us. Like we you know, I love brev.nvidia.com. Like you should, you should use it's, it's theKyle: front page for GPUs.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. If you want GP views,Kyle: you go there, getswyx: it there, and it's like internally is growing very quickly.I, I don't remember You said some stats there.Nader: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, I, I wish I had the exact numbers, but like internally, externally, it's been growing really quickly. We've been working with a bunch of partners with a bunch of different customers and ISVs, if you have a solution that you want someone that runs on the GPU and you want people to use it quickly, we can bundle it up, uh, in a launchable and make it a one click run.If you're doing things and you want just like a sandbox or something to run on, right. Like open claw. Huge moment. Super exciting. Our, uh, and we'll talk into it more, but. You know, internally, people wanna run this, and you, we know we have to be really careful from the security implications. Do we let this run on the corporate network?Security's guidance was, Hey, [00:09:00] run this on breath, it's in, you know, it's, it's, it's a vm, it's sitting in the cloud, it's off the corporate network. It's isolated. And so that's been our stance internally and externally about how to even run something like open call while we figure out how to run these things securely.But yeah,swyx: I think there's also like, you almost like we're the right team at the right time when Nvidia is starting to invest a lot more in developer experience or whatever you call it. Yeah. Uh, UX or I don't know what you call it, like software. Like obviously NVIDIA is always invested in software, but like, there's like, this is like a different audience.Yeah. It's aNader: widerKyle: developer base.swyx: Yeah. Right.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny, it's like, it's not, uh,swyx: so like, what, what is it called internally? What, what is this that people should be aware that is going on there?Nader: Uh, what, like developer experienceswyx: or, yeah, yeah. Is it's called just developer experience or is there like a broader strategy hereNader: in Nvidia?Um, Nvidia always wants to make a good developer experience. The thing is and a lot of the technology is just really complicated. Like, it's not, it's uh, you know, I think, um. The thing that's been really growing or the AI's growing is having a huge moment, not [00:10:00] because like, let's say data scientists in 2018, were quiet then and are much louder now.The pie is com, right? There's a whole bunch of new audiences. My mom's wondering what she's doing. My sister's learned, like taught herself how to code. Like the, um, you know, I, I actually think just generally AI's a big equalizer and you're seeing a more like technologically literate society, I guess.Like everyone's, everyone's learning how to code. Uh, there isn't really an excuse for that. And so building a good UX means that you really understand who your end user is. And when your end user becomes such a wide, uh, variety of people, then you have to almost like reinvent the practice, right? Yeah. You haveKyle: to, and actually build more developer ux, right?Because the, there are tiers of developer base that were added. You know, the, the hackers that are building on top of open claw, right? For example, have never used gpu. They don't know what kuda is. They, they, they just want to run something.Nader: Yeah.Kyle: You need new UX that is not just. Hey, you know, how do you program something in Cuda and run it?And then, and then we built, you know, like when Deep Learning was getting big, we built, we built Torch and, and, but so recently the amount of like [00:11:00] layers that are added to that developer stack has just exploded because AI has become ubiquitous. Everyone's using it in different ways. Yeah. It'sNader: moving fast in every direction.Vertical, horizontal.Vibhu: Yeah. You guys, you even take it down to hardware, like the DGX Spark, you know, it's, it's basically the same system as just throwing it up on big GPU cluster.Nader: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. Blackwell.swyx: Yeah. Uh, we saw the preview at the last year's GTC and that was one of the better performing, uh, videos so far, and video coverage so far.Awesome. This will beat it. Um,Nader: that wasswyx: actually, we have fingersNader: crossed. Yeah.DGX Spark and Remote AccessNader: Even when Grace Blackwell or when, um, uh, DGX Spark was first coming out getting to be involved in that from the beginning of the developer experience. And it just comes back to what youswyx: were involved.Nader: Yeah. St. St.swyx: Mars.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. I mean from, it was just like, I, I got an email, we just got thrown into the loop and suddenly yeah, I, it was actually really funny ‘cause I'm still pretty fresh from the acquisition and I'm, I'm getting an email from a bunch of the engineering VPs about like, the new hardware, GPU chip, like we're, or not chip, but just GPU system that we're putting out.And I'm like, okay, cool. Matters. Now involved with this for the ux, I'm like. What am I gonna do [00:12:00] here? So, I remember the first meeting, I was just like kind of quiet as I was hearing engineering VPs talk about what this box could be, what it could do, how we should use it. And I remember, uh, one of the first ideas that people were idea was like, oh, the first thing that it was like, I think a quote was like, the first thing someone's gonna wanna do with this is get two of them and run a Kubernetes cluster on top of them.And I was like, oh, I think I know why I'm here. I was like, the first thing we're doing is easy. SSH into the machine. And then, and you know, just kind of like scoping it down of like, once you can do that every, you, like the person who wants to run a Kubernetes cluster onto Sparks has a higher propensity for pain, then, then you know someone who buys it and wants to run open Claw right now, right?If you can make sure that that's as effortless as possible, then the rest becomes easy. So there's a tool called Nvidia Sync. It just makes the SSH connection really simple. So, you know, if you think about it like. If you have a Mac, uh, or a PC or whatever, if you have a laptop and you buy this GPU and you want to use it, you should be able to use it like it's A-A-G-P-U in the cloud, right?Um, but there's all this friction of like, how do you actually get into that? That's part of [00:13:00] Revs value proposition is just, you know, there's a CLI that wraps SSH and makes it simple. And so our goal is just get you into that machine really easily. And one thing we just launched at CES, it's in, it's still in like early access.We're ironing out some kinks, but it should be ready by GTC. You can register your spark on Brev. And so now if youswyx: like remote managed yeah, local hardware. Single pane of glass. Yeah. Yeah. Because Brev can already manage other clouds anyway, right?Vibhu: Yeah, yeah. And you use the spark on Brev as well, right?Nader: Yeah. But yeah, exactly. So, so you, you, so you, you set it up at home you can run the command on it, and then it gets it's essentially it'll appear in your Brev account, and then you can take your laptop to a Starbucks or to a cafe, and you'll continue to use your, you can continue use your spark just like any other cloud node on Brev.Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like a pre-provisioned centerswyx: in yourNader: home. Yeah, exactly.swyx: Yeah. Yeah.Vibhu: Tiny little data center.Nader: Tiny little, the size ofVibhu: your phone.SOL Culture and Dynamo Setupswyx: One more thing before we move on to Kyle. Just have so many Jensen stories and I just love, love mining Jensen stories. Uh, my favorite so far is SOL. Uh, what is, yeah, what is S-O-L-S-O-LNader: is actually, i, I think [00:14:00] of all the lessons I've learned, that one's definitely my favorite.Kyle: It'll always stick with you.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, in your startup, everything's existential, right? Like we've, we've run out of money. We were like, on the risk of, of losing payroll, we've had to contract our team because we l ran outta money. And so like, um, because of that you're really always forcing yourself to I to like understand the root cause of everything.If you get a date, if you get a timeline, you know exactly why that date or timeline is there. You're, you're pushing every boundary and like, you're not just say, you're not just accepting like a, a no. Just because. And so as you start to introduce more layers, as you start to become a much larger organization, SOL is is essentially like what is the physics, right?The speed of light moves at a certain speed. So if flight's moving some slower, then you know something's in the way. So before trying to like layer reality back in of like, why can't this be delivered at some date? Let's just understand the physics. What is the theoretical limit to like, uh, how fast this can go?And then start to tell me why. ‘cause otherwise people will start telling you why something can't be done. But actually I think any great leader's goal is just to create urgency. Yeah. [00:15:00] There's an infiniteKyle: create compelling events, right?Nader: Yeah.Kyle: Yeah. So l is a term video is used to instigate a compelling event.You say this is done. How do we get there? What is the minimum? As much as necessary, as little as possible thing that it takes for us to get exactly here and. It helps you just break through a bunch of noise.swyx: Yeah.Kyle: Instantly.swyx: One thing I'm unclear about is, can only Jensen use the SOL card? Like, oh, no, no, no.Not everyone get the b******t out because obviously it's Jensen, but like, can someone else be like, no, likeKyle: frontline engineers use it.Nader: Yeah. Every, I think it's not so much about like, get the b******t out. It's like, it's like, give me the root understanding, right? Like, if you tell me something takes three weeks, it like, well, what's the first principles?Yeah, the first principles. It's like, what's the, what? Like why is it three weeks? What is the actual yeah. What's the actual limit of why this is gonna take three weeks? If you're gonna, if you, if let's say you wanted to buy a new computer and someone told you it's gonna be here in five days, what's the SOL?Well, like the SOL is like, I could walk into a Best Buy and pick it up for you. Right? So then anything that's like beyond that is, and is that practical? Is that how we're gonna, you know, let's say give everyone in the [00:16:00] company a laptop, like obviously not. So then like that's the SOL and then it's like, okay, well if we have to get more than 10, suddenly there might be some, right?And so now we can kind of piece the reality back.swyx: So, so this is the. Paul Graham do things that don't scale. Yeah. And this is also the, what people would now call behi agency. Yeah.Kyle: It's actually really interesting because there's a, there's a second hardware angle to SOL that like doesn't come up for all the org sol is used like culturally at aswyx: media for everything.I'm also mining for like, I think that can be annoying sometimes. And like someone keeps going IOO you and you're like, guys, like we have to be stable. We have to, we to f*****g plan. Yeah.Kyle: It's an interesting balance.Nader: Yeah. I encounter that with like, actually just with, with Alec, right? ‘cause we, we have a new conference so we need to launch, we have, we have goals of what we wanna launch by, uh, by the conference and like, yeah.At the end of the day, where isswyx: this GTC?Nader: Um, well this is like, so we, I mean we did it for CES, we did for GT CDC before that we're doing it for GTC San Jose. So I mean, like every, you know, we have a new moment. Um, and we want to launch something. Yeah. And we want to do so at SOL and that does mean that some, there's some level of prioritization that needs [00:17:00] to happen.And so it, it is difficult, right? I think, um, you have to be careful with what you're pushing. You know, stability is important and that should be factored into S-O-L-S-O-L isn't just like, build everything and let it break, you know, that, that's part of the conversation. So as you're laying, layering in all the details, one of them might be, Hey, we could build this, but then it's not gonna be stable for X, y, z reasons.And so that was like, one of our conversations for CES was, you know, hey, like we, we can get this into early access registering your spark with brev. But there are a lot of things that we need to do in order to feel really comfortable from a security perspective, right? There's a lot of networking involved before we deliver that to users.So it's like, okay. Let's get this to a point where we can at least let people experiment with it. We had it in a booth, we had it in Jensen's keynote, and then let's go iron out all the networking kinks. And that's not easy. And so, uh, that can come later. And so that was the way that we layered that back in.Yeah. ButKyle: It's not really about saying like, you don't have to do the, the maintenance or operational work. It's more about saying, you know, it's kind of like [00:18:00] highlights how progress is incremental, right? Like, what is the minimum thing that we can get to. And then there's SOL for like every component after that.But there's the SOL to get you, get you to the, the starting line. And that, that's usually how it's asked. Yeah. On the other side, you know, like SOL came out of like hardware at Nvidia. Right. So SOL is like literally if we ran the accelerator or the GPU with like at basically full speed with like no other constraints, like how FAST would be able to make a program go.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Right.Kyle: Soswyx: in, in training that like, you know, then you work back to like some percentage of like MFU for example.Kyle: Yeah, that's a, that's a great example. So like, there's an, there's an S-O-L-M-F-U, and then there's like, you know, what's practically achievable.swyx: Cool. Should we move on to sort of, uh, Kyle's side?Uh, Kyle, you're coming more from the data science world. And, uh, I, I mean I always, whenever, whenever I meet someone who's done working in tabular stuff, graph neural networks, time series, these are basically when I go to new reps, I go to ICML, I walk the back halls. There's always like a small group of graph people.Yes. Absolute small group of tabular people. [00:19:00] And like, there's no one there. And like, it's very like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, no, like it's, it's important interesting work if you care about solving the problems that they solve.Kyle: Yeah.swyx: But everyone else is just LMS all the time.Kyle: Yeah. I mean it's like, it's like the black hole, right?Has the event horizon reached this yet in nerves? Um,swyx: but like, you know, those are, those are transformers too. Yeah. And, and those are also like interesting things. Anyway, uh, I just wanted to spend a little bit of time on, on those, that background before we go into Dynamo, uh, proper.Kyle: Yeah, sure. I took a different path to Nvidia than that, or I joined six years ago, seven, if you count, when I was an intern.So I joined Nvidia, like right outta college. And the first thing I jumped into was not what I'd done in, during internship, which was like, you know, like some stuff for autonomous vehicles, like heavyweight object detection. I jumped into like, you know, something, I'm like, recommenders, this is popular. Andswyx: yeah, he did RexiKyle: as well.Yeah, Rexi. Yeah. I mean that, that was the taboo data at the time, right? You have tables of like, audience qualities and item qualities, and you're trying to figure out like which member of [00:20:00] the audience matches which item or, or more practically which item matches which member of the audience. And at the time, really it was like we were trying to enable.Uh, recommender, which had historically been like a little bit of a CP based workflow into something that like, ran really well in GPUs. And it's since been done. Like there are a bunch of libraries for Axis that run on GPUs. Uh, the common models like Deeplearning recommendation model, which came outta meta and the wide and deep model, which was used or was released by Google were very accelerated by GPUs using, you know, the fast HBM on the chips, especially to do, you know, vector lookups.But it was very interesting at the time and super, super relevant because like we were starting to get like. This explosion of feeds and things that required rec recommenders to just actively be on all the time. And sort of transitioned that a little bit towards graph neural networks when I discovered them because I was like, okay, you can actually use graphical neural networks to represent like, relationships between people, items, concepts, and that, that interested me.So I jumped into that at [00:21:00] Nvidia and, and got really involved for like two-ish years.swyx: Yeah. Uh, and something I learned from Brian Zaro Yeah. Is that you can just kind of choose your own path in Nvidia.Kyle: Oh my God. Yeah.swyx: Which is not a normal big Corp thing. Yeah. Like you, you have a lane, you stay in your lane.Nader: I think probably the reason why I enjoy being in a, a big company, the mission is the boss probably from a startup guy. Yeah. The missionswyx: is the boss.Nader: Yeah. Uh, it feels like a big game of pickup basketball. Like, you know, if you play one, if you wanna play basketball, you just go up to the court and you're like, Hey look, we're gonna play this game and we need three.Yeah. And you just like find your three. That's honestly for every new initiative that's what it feels like. Yeah.Vibhu: It also like shows, right? Like Nvidia. Just releasing state-of-the-art stuff in every domain. Yeah. Like, okay, you expect foundation models with Nemo tron voice just randomly parakeet.Call parakeet just comes out another one, uh, voice. TheKyle: video voice team has always been producing.Vibhu: Yeah. There's always just every other domain of paper that comes out, dataset that comes out. It's like, I mean, it also stems back to what Nvidia has to do, right? You have to make chips years before they're actually produced.Right? So you need to know, you need to really [00:22:00] focus. TheKyle: design process starts likeVibhu: exactlyKyle: three to five years before the chip gets to the market.Vibhu: Yeah. I, I'm curious more about what that's like, right? So like, you have specialist teams. Is it just like, you know, people find an interest, you go in, you go deep on whatever, and that kind of feeds back into, you know, okay, we, we expect predictions.Like the internals at Nvidia must be crazy. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, you, you must. Not even without selling to people, you have your own predictions of where things are going. Yeah. And they're very based, very grounded. Right?Kyle: Yeah. It, it, it's really interesting. So there's like two things that I think that Amed does, which are quite interesting.Uh, one is like, we really index into passion. There's a big. Sort of organizational top sound push to like ensure that people are working on the things that they're passionate about. So if someone proposes something that's interesting, many times they can just email someone like way up the chain that they would find this relevant and say like, Hey, can I go work on this?Nader: It's actually like I worked at a, a big company for a couple years before, uh, starting on my startup journey and like, it felt very weird if you were to like email out of chain, if that makes [00:23:00] sense. Yeah. The emails at Nvidia are like mosh pitsswyx: shoot,Nader: and it's just like 60 people, just whatever. And like they're, there's this,swyx: they got messy like, reply all you,Nader: oh, it's in, it's insane.It's insane. They justKyle: help. You know, Maxim,Nader: the context. But, but that's actually like, I've actually, so this is a weird thing where I used to be like, why would we send emails? We have Slack. I am the entire, I'm the exact opposite. I feel so bad for anyone who's like messaging me on Slack ‘cause I'm so unresponsive.swyx: Your emailNader: Maxi, email Maxim. I'm email maxing Now email is a different, email is perfect because man, we can't work together. I'm email is great, right? Because important threads get bumped back up, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, and so Slack doesn't do that. So I just have like this casino going off on the right or on the left and like, I don't know which thread was from where or what, but like the threads get And then also just like the subject, so you can have like working threads.I think what's difficult is like when you're small, if you're just not 40,000 people I think Slack will work fine, but there's, I don't know what the inflection point is. There is gonna be a point where that becomes really messy and you'll actually prefer having email. ‘cause you can have working threads.You can cc more than nine people in a thread.Kyle: You can fork stuff.Nader: You can [00:24:00] fork stuff, which is super nice and just like y Yeah. And so, but that is part of where you can propose a plan. You can also just. Start, honestly, momentum's the only authority, right? So like, if you can just start, start to make a little bit of progress and show someone something, and then they can try it.That's, I think what's been, you know, I think the most effective way to push anything for forward. And that's both at Nvidia and I think just generally.Kyle: Yeah, there's, there's the other concept that like is explored a lot at Nvidia, which is this idea of a zero billion dollar business. Like market creation is a big thing at Nvidia.Like,swyx: oh, you want to go and start a zero billion dollar business?Kyle: Jensen says, we are completely happy investing in zero billion dollar markets. We don't care if this creates revenue. It's important for us to know about this market. We think it will be important in the future. It can be zero billion dollars for a while.I'm probably minging as words here for, but like, you know, like, I'll give an example. NVIDIA's been working on autonomous driving for a a long time,swyx: like an Nvidia car.Kyle: No, they, they'veVibhu: used the Mercedes, right? They're around the HQ and I think it finally just got licensed out. Now they're starting to be used quite a [00:25:00] bit.For 10 years you've been seeing Mercedes with Nvidia logos driving.Kyle: If you're in like the South San Santa Clara, it's, it's actually from South. Yeah. So, um. Zero billion dollar markets are, are a thing like, you know, Jensen,swyx: I mean, okay, look, cars are not a zero billion dollar market. But yeah, that's a bad example.Nader: I think, I think he's, he's messaging, uh, zero today, but, or even like internally, right? Like, like it's like, uh, an org doesn't have to ruthlessly find revenue very quickly to justify their existence. Right. Like a lot of the important research, a lot of the important technology being developed that, that's kind ofKyle: where research, research is very ide ideologically free at Nvidia.Yeah. Like they can pursue things that they wereswyx: Were you research officially?Kyle: I was never in research. Officially. I was always in engineering. Yeah. We in, I'm in an org called Deep Warning Algorithms, which is basically just how do we make things that are relevant to deep warning go fast.swyx: That sounds freaking cool.Vibhu: And I think a lot of that is underappreciated, right? Like time series. This week Google put out time. FF paper. Yeah. A new time series, paper res. Uh, Symantec, ID [00:26:00] started applying Transformers LMS to Yes. Rec system. Yes. And when you think the scale of companies deploying these right. Amazon recommendations, Google web search, it's like, it's huge scale andKyle: Yeah.Vibhu: You want fast?Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually it's, it, I, there's a fun moment that brought me like full circle. Like, uh, Amazon Ads recently gave a talk where they talked about using Dynamo for generative recommendation, which was like super, like weirdly cathartic for me. I'm like, oh my God. I've, I've supplanted what I was working on.Like, I, you're using LMS now to do what I was doing five years ago.swyx: Yeah. Amazing. And let's go right into Dynamo. Uh, maybe introduce Yeah, sure. To the top down and Yeah.Kyle: I think at this point a lot of people are familiar with the term of inference. Like funnily enough, like I went from, you know, inference being like a really niche topic to being something that's like discussed on like normal people's Twitter feeds.It's,Nader: it's on billboardsKyle: here now. Yeah. Very, very strange. Driving, driving, seeing just an inference ad on 1 0 1 inference at scale is becoming a lot more important. Uh, we have these moments like, you know, open claw where you have these [00:27:00] agents that take lots and lots of tokens, but produce, incredible results.There are many different aspects of test time scaling so that, you know, you can use more inference to generate a better result than if you were to use like a short amount of inference. There's reasoning, there's quiring, there's, adding agency to the model, allowing it to call tools and use skills.Dyno sort came about at Nvidia. Because myself and a couple others were, were sort of talking about the, these concepts that like, you know, you have inference engines like VLMS, shelan, tenor, TLM and they have like one single copy. They, they, they sort of think about like things as like one single copy, like one replica, right?Why Scale Out WinsKyle: Like one version of the model. But when you're actually serving things at scale, you can't just scale up that replica because you end up with like performance problems. There's a scaling limit to scaling up replicas. So you actually have to scale out to use a, maybe some Kubernetes type terminology.We kind of realized that there was like. A lot of potential optimization that we could do in scaling out and building systems for data [00:28:00] center scale inference. So Dynamo is this data center scale inference engine that sits on top of the frameworks like VLM Shilling and 10 T lm and just makes things go faster because you can leverage the economy of scale.The fact that you have KV cash, which we can define a little bit later, uh, in all these machines that is like unique and you wanna figure out like the ways to maximize your cash hits or you want to employ new techniques in inference like disaggregation, which Dynamo had introduced to the world in, in, in March, not introduced, it was a academic talk, but beforehand.But we are, you know, one of the first frameworks to start, supporting it. And we wanna like, sort of combine all these techniques into sort of a modular framework that allows you to. Accelerate your inference at scale.Nader: By the way, Kyle and I became friends on my first date, Nvidia, and I always loved, ‘cause like he always teaches meswyx: new things.Yeah. By the way, this is why I wanted to put two of you together. I was like, yeah, this is, this is gonna beKyle: good. It's very, it's very different, you know, like we've, we, we've, we've talked to each other a bunch [00:29:00] actually, you asked like, why, why can't we scale up?Nader: Yeah.Scale Up Limits ExplainedNader: model, you said model replicas.Kyle: Yeah. So you, so scale up means assigning moreswyx: heavier?Kyle: Yeah, heavier. Like making things heavier. Yeah, adding more GPUs. Adding more CPUs. Scale out is just like having a barrier saying, I'm gonna duplicate my representation of the model or a representation of this microservice or something, and I'm gonna like, replicate it Many times.Handle, load. And the reason that you can't scale, scale up, uh, past some points is like, you know, there, there, there are sort of hardware bounds and algorithmic bounds on, on that type of scaling. So I'll give you a good example that's like very trivial. Let's say you're on an H 100. The Maxim ENV link domain for H 100, for most Ds H one hundreds is heus, right?So if you scaled up past that, you're gonna have to figure out ways to handle the fact that now for the GPUs to communicate, you have to do it over Infin band, which is still very fast, but is not as fast as ENV link.swyx: Is it like one order of magnitude, like hundreds or,Kyle: it's about an order of magnitude?Yeah. Okay. Um, soswyx: not terrible.Kyle: [00:30:00] Yeah. I, I need to, I need to remember the, the data sheet here, like, I think it's like about 500 gigabytes. Uh, a second unidirectional for ENV link, and about 50 gigabytes a second unidirectional for Infin Band. I, it, it depends on the, the generation.swyx: I just wanna set this up for people who are not familiar with these kinds of like layers and the trash speedVibhu: and all that.Of course.From Laptop to Multi NodeVibhu: Also, maybe even just going like a few steps back before that, like most people are very familiar with. You see a, you know, you can use on your laptop, whatever these steel viol, lm you can just run inference there. All, there's all, you can, youcan run it on thatVibhu: laptop. You can run on laptop.Then you get to, okay, uh, models got pretty big, right? JLM five, they doubled the size, so mm-hmm. Uh, what do you do when you have to go from, okay, I can get 128 gigs of memory. I can run it on a spark. Then you have to go multi GPU. Yeah. Okay. Multi GPU, there's some support there. Now, if I'm a company and I don't have like.I'm not hiring the best researchers for this. Right. But I need to go [00:31:00] multi-node, right? I have a lot of servers. Okay, now there's efficiency problems, right? You can have multiple eight H 100 nodes, but, you know, is that as a, like, how do you do that efficiently?Kyle: Yeah. How do you like represent them? How do you choose how to represent the model?Yeah, exactly right. That's a, that's like a hard question. Everyone asks, how do you size oh, I wanna run GLM five, which just came out new model. There have been like four of them in the past week, by the way, like a bunch of new models.swyx: You know why? Right? Deep seek.Kyle: No comment. Oh. Yeah, but Ggl, LM five, right?We, we have this, new model. It's, it's like a large size, and you have to figure out how to both scale up and scale out, right? Because you have to find the right representation that you care about. Everyone does this differently. Let's be very clear. Everyone figures this out in their own path.Nader: I feel like a lot of AI or ML even is like, is like this. I think people think, you know, I, I was, there was some tweet a few months ago that was like, why hasn't fine tuning as a service taken off? You know, that might be me. It might have been you. Yeah. But people want it to be such an easy recipe to follow.But even like if you look at an ML model and specificKyle: to you Yeah,Nader: yeah.Kyle: And the [00:32:00] model,Nader: the situation, and there's just so much tinkering, right? Like when you see a model that has however many experts in the ME model, it's like, why that many experts? I don't, they, you know, they tried a bunch of things and that one seemed to do better.I think when it comes to how you're serving inference, you know, you have a bunch of decisions to make and there you can always argue that you can take something and make it more optimal. But I think it's this internal calibration and appetite for continued calibration.Vibhu: Yeah. And that doesn't mean like, you know, people aren't taking a shot at this, like tinker from thinking machines, you know?Yeah. RL as a service. Yeah, totally. It's, it also gets even harder when you try to do big model training, right? We're not the best at training Moes, uh, when they're pre-trained. Like we saw this with LAMA three, right? They're trained in such a sparse way that meta knows there's gonna be a bunch of inference done on these, right?They'll open source it, but it's very trained for what meta infrastructure wants, right? They wanna, they wanna inference it a lot. Now the question to basically think about is, okay, say you wanna serve a chat application, a coding copilot, right? You're doing a layer of rl, you're serving a model for X amount of people.Is it a chat model, a coding model? Dynamo, you know, back to that,Kyle: it's [00:33:00] like, yeah, sorry. So you we, we sort of like jumped off of, you know, jumped, uh, on that topic. Everyone has like, their own, own journey.Cost Quality Latency TradeoffsKyle: And I, I like to think of it as defined by like, what is the model you need? What is the accuracy you need?Actually I talked to NA about this earlier. There's three axes you care about. What is the quality that you're able to produce? So like, are you accurate enough or can you complete the task with enough, performance, high enough performance. Yeah, yeah. Uh, there's cost. Can you serve the model or serve your workflow?Because it's not just the model anymore, it's the workflow. It's the multi turn with an agent cheaply enough. And then can you serve it fast enough? And we're seeing all three of these, like, play out, like we saw, we saw new models from OpenAI that you know, are faster. You have like these new fast versions of models.You can change the amount of thinking to change the amount of quality, right? Produce more tokens, but at a higher cost in a, in a higher latency. And really like when you start this journey of like trying to figure out how you wanna host a model, you, you, you think about three things. What is the model I need to serve?How many times do I need to call it? What is the input sequence link was [00:34:00] the, what does the workflow look like on top of it? What is the SLA, what is the latency SLA that I need to achieve? Because there's usually some, this is usually like a constant, you, you know, the SLA that you need to hit and then like you try and find the lowest cost version that hits all of these constraints.Usually, you know, you, you start with those things and you say you, you kind of do like a bit of experimentation across some common configurations. You change the tensor parallel size, which is a form of parallelismVibhu: I take, it goes even deeper first. Gotta think what model.Kyle: Yes, course,ofKyle: course. It's like, it's like a multi-step design process because as you said, you can, you can choose a smaller model and then do more test time scaling and it'll equate the quality of a larger model because you're doing the test time scaling or you're adding a harness or something.So yes, it, it goes way deeper than that. But from the performance perspective, like once you get to the model you need, you need to host, you look at that and you say, Hey. I have this model, I need to serve it at the speed. What is the right configuration for that?Nader: You guys see the recent, uh, there was a paper I just saw like a few days ago that, uh, if you run [00:35:00] the same prompt twice, you're getting like double Just try itagain.Nader: Yeah, exactly.Vibhu: And you get a lot. Yeah. But the, the key thing there is you give the context of the failed try, right? Yeah. So it takes a shot. And this has been like, you know, basic guidance for quite a while. Just try again. ‘cause you know, trying, just try again. Did you try again? All adviceNader: in life.Vibhu: Just, it's a paper from Google, if I'm not mistaken, right?Yeah,Vibhu: yeah. I think it, it's like a seven bas little short paper. Yeah. Yeah. The title's very cute. And it's just like, yeah, just try again. Give it ask context,Kyle: multi-shot. You just like, say like, hey, like, you know, like take, take a little bit more, take a little bit more information, try and fail. Fail.Vibhu: And that basic concept has gone pretty deep.There's like, um, self distillation, rl where you, you do self distillation, you do rl and you have past failure and you know, that gives some signal so people take, try it again. Not strong enough.swyx: Uh, for, for listeners, uh, who listen to here, uh, vivo actually, and I, and we run a second YouTube channel for our paper club where, oh, that's awesome.Vivo just covered this. Yeah. Awesome. Self desolation and all that's, that's why he, to speed [00:36:00] on it.Nader: I'll to check it out.swyx: Yeah. It, it's just a good practice, like everyone needs, like a paper club where like you just read papers together and the social pressure just kind of forces you to just,Nader: we, we,there'sNader: like a big inference.Kyle: ReadingNader: group at a video. I feel so bad every time. I I, he put it on like, on our, he shared it.swyx: One, one ofNader: your guys,swyx: uh, is, is big in that, I forget es han Yeah, yeah,Kyle: es Han's on my team. Actually. Funny. There's a, there's a, there's a employee transfer between us. Han worked for Nater at Brev, and now he, he's on my team.He wasNader: our head of ai. And then, yeah, once we got in, andswyx: because I'm always looking for like, okay, can, can I start at another podcast that only does that thing? Yeah. And, uh, Esan was like, I was trying to like nudge Esan into like, is there something here? I mean, I don't think there's, there's new infant techniques every day.So it's like, it's likeKyle: you would, you would actually be surprised, um, the amount of blog posts you see. And ifswyx: there's a period where it was like, Medusa hydra, what Eagle, like, youKyle: know, now we have new forms of decode, uh, we have new forms of specula, of decoding or new,swyx: what,Kyle: what are youVibhu: excited? And it's exciting when you guys put out something like Tron.‘cause I remember the paper on this Tron three, [00:37:00] uh, the amount of like post train, the on tokens that the GPU rich can just train on. And it, it was a hybrid state space model, right? Yeah.Kyle: It's co-designed for the hardware.Vibhu: Yeah, go design for the hardware. And one of the things was always, you know, the state space models don't scale as well when you do a conversion or whatever the performance.And you guys are like, no, just keep draining. And Nitron shows a lot of that. Yeah.Nader: Also, something cool about Nitron it was released in layers, if you will, very similar to Dynamo. It's, it's, it's essentially it was released as you can, the pre-training, post-training data sets are released. Yeah. The recipes on how to do it are released.The model itself is released. It's full model. You just benefit from us turning on the GPUs. But there are companies like, uh, ServiceNow took the dataset and they trained their own model and we were super excited and like, you know, celebrated that work.ZoomVibhu: different. Zoom is, zoom is CGI, I think, uh, you know, also just to add like a lot of models don't put out based models and if there's that, why is fine tuning not taken off?You know, you can do your own training. Yeah,Kyle: sure.Vibhu: You guys put out based model, I think you put out everything.Nader: I believe I know [00:38:00]swyx: about base. BasicallyVibhu: without baseswyx: basic can be cancelable.Vibhu: Yeah. Base can be cancelable.swyx: Yeah.Vibhu: Safety training.swyx: Did we get a full picture of dymo? I, I don't know if we, what,Nader: what I'd love is you, you mentioned the three axes like break it down of like, you know, what's prefilled decode and like what are the optimizations that we can get with Dynamo?Kyle: Yeah. That, that's, that's, that's a great point. So to summarize on that three axis problem, right, there are three things that determine whether or not something can be done with inference, cost, quality, latency, right? Dynamo is supposed to be there to provide you like the runtime that allows you to pull levers to, you know, mix it up and move around the parade of frontier or the preto surface that determines is this actually possible with inference And AI todayNader: gives you the knobs.Kyle: Yeah, exactly. It gives you the knobs.Disaggregation Prefill vs DecodeKyle: Uh, and one thing that like we, we use a lot in contemporary inference and is, you know, starting to like pick up from, you know, in, in general knowledge is this co concept of disaggregation. So historically. Models would be hosted with a single inference engine. And that inference engine [00:39:00] would ping pong between two phases.There's prefill where you're reading the sequence generating KV cache, which is basically just a set of vectors that represent the sequence. And then using that KV cache to generate new tokens, which is called Decode. And some brilliant researchers across multiple different papers essentially made the realization that if you separate these two phases, you actually gain some benefits.Those benefits are basically a you don't have to worry about step synchronous scheduling. So the way that an inference engine works is you do one step and then you finish it, and then you schedule, you start scheduling the next step there. It's not like fully asynchronous. And the problem with that is you would have, uh, essentially pre-fill and decode are, are actually very different in terms of both their resource requirements and their sometimes their runtime.So you would have like prefill that would like block decode steps because you, you'd still be pre-filing and you couldn't schedule because you know the step has to end. So you remove that scheduling issue and then you also allow you, or you yourself, to like [00:40:00] split the work into two different ki types of pools.So pre-fill typically, and, and this changes as, as model architecture changes. Pre-fill is, right now, compute bound most of the time with the sequence is sufficiently long. It's compute bound. On the decode side because you're doing a full Passover, all the weights and the entire sequence, every time you do a decode step and you're, you don't have the quadratic computation of KV cache, it's usually memory bound because you're retrieving a linear amount of memory and you're doing a linear amount of compute as opposed to prefill where you retrieve a linear amount of memory and then use a quadratic.You know,Nader: it's funny, someone exo Labs did a really cool demo where for the DGX Spark, which has a lot more compute, you can do the pre the compute hungry prefill on a DG X spark and then do the decode on a, on a Mac. Yeah. And soVibhu: that's faster.Nader: Yeah. Yeah.Kyle: So you could, you can do that. You can do machine strat stratification.Nader: Yeah.Kyle: And like with our future generation generations of hardware, we actually announced, like with Reuben, this [00:41:00] new accelerator that is prefilled specific. It's called Reuben, CPX. SoKubernetes Scaling with GroveNader: I have a question when you do the scale out. Yeah. Is scaling out easier with Dynamo? Because when you need a new node, you can dedicate it to either the Prefill or, uh, decode.Kyle: Yeah. So Dynamo actually has like a, a Kubernetes component in it called Grove that allows you to, to do this like crazy scaling specialization. It has like this hot, it's a representation that, I don't wanna go too deep into Kubernetes here, but there was a previous way that you would like launch multi-node work.Uh, it's called Leader Worker Set. It's in the Kubernetes standard, and Leader worker set is great. It served a lot of people super well for a long period of time. But one of the things that it's struggles with is representing a set of cases where you have a multi-node replica that has a pair, right?You know, prefill and decode, or it's not paired, but it has like a second stage that has a ratio that changes over time. And prefill and decode are like two different things as your workload changes, right? The amount of prefill you'll need to do may change. [00:42:00] The amount of decode that you, you'll need to do might change, right?Like, let's say you start getting like insanely long queries, right? That probably means that your prefill scales like harder because you're hitting these, this quadratic scaling growth.swyx: Yeah.And then for listeners, like prefill will be long input. Decode would be long output, for example, right?Kyle: Yeah. So like decode, decode scale. I mean, decode is funny because the amount of tokens that you produce scales with the output length, but the amount of work that you do per step scales with the amount of tokens in the context.swyx: Yes.Kyle: So both scales with the input and the output.swyx: That's true.Kyle: But on the pre-fold view code side, like if.Suddenly, like the amount of work you're doing on the decode side stays about the same or like scales a little bit, and then the prefilled side like jumps up a lot. You actually don't want that ratio to be the same. You want it to change over time. So Dynamo has a set of components that A, tell you how to scale.It tells you how many prefilled workers and decoded workers you, it thinks you should have, and also provides a scheduling API for Kubernetes that allows you to actually represent and affect this scheduling on, on, on your actual [00:43:00] hardware, on your compute infrastructure.Nader: Not gonna lie. I feel a little embarrassed for being proud of my SVG function earlier.swyx: No, itNader: wasreallyKyle: cute. I, Iswyx: likeNader: it's all,swyx: it's all engineering. It's all engineering. Um, that's where I'mKyle: technical.swyx: One thing I'm, I'm kind of just curious about with all with you see at a systems level, everything going on here. Mm-hmm. And we, you know, we're scaling it up in, in multi, in distributed systems.Context Length and Co Designswyx: Um, I think one thing that's like kind of, of the moment right now is people are asking, is there any SOL sort of upper bounds. In terms of like, let's call, just call it context length for one for of a better word, but you can break it down however you like.Nader: Yeah.swyx: I just think like, well, yeah, I mean, like clearly you can engage in hybrid architectures and throw in some state space models in there.All, all you want, but it looks, still looks very attention heavy.Kyle: Yes. Uh, yeah. Long context is attention heavy. I mean, we have these hybrid models, um,swyx: to take and most, most models like cap out at a million contexts and that's it. Yeah. Like for the last two years has been it.Kyle: Yeah. The model hardware context co-design thing that we're seeing these days is actually super [00:44:00] interesting.It's like my, my passion, like my secret side passion. We see models like Kimmy or G-P-T-O-S-S. I'm use these because I, I know specific things about these models. So Kimmy two comes out, right? And it's an interesting model. It's like, like a deep seek style architecture is MLA. It's basically deep seek, scaled like a little bit differently, um, and obviously trained differently as well.But they, they talked about, why they made the design choices for context. Kimmy has more experts, but fewer attention heads, and I believe a slightly smaller attention, uh, like dimension. But I need to remember, I need to check that. Uh, it doesn't matter. But they discussed this actually at length in a blog post on ji, which is like our pu which is like credit puswyx: Yeah.Kyle: Um, in, in China. Chinese red.swyx: Yeah.Kyle: It's, yeah. So it, it's, it's actually an incredible blog post. Uh, like all the mls people in, in, in that, I've seen that on GPU are like very brilliant, but they, they talk about like the creators of Kimi K two [00:45:00] actually like, talked about it on, on, on there in the blog post.And they say, we, we actually did an experiment, right? Attention scales with the number of heads, obviously. Like if you have 64 heads versus 32 heads, you do half the work of attention. You still scale quadratic, but you do half the work. And they made a, a very specific like. Sort of barter in their system, in their architecture, they basically said, Hey, what if we gave it more experts, so we're gonna use more memory capacity.But we keep the amount of activated experts the same. We increase the expert sparsity, so we have fewer experts act. The ratio to of experts activated to number of experts is smaller, and we decrease the number of attention heads.Vibhu: And kind of for context, what the, what we had been seeing was you make models sparser instead.So no one was really touching heads. You're just having, uh,Kyle: well, they, they did, they implicitly made it sparser.Vibhu: Yeah, yeah. For, for Kimmy. They did,Kyle: yes.Vibhu: They also made it sparser. But basically what we were seeing was people were at the level of, okay, there's a sparsity ratio. You want more total parameters, less active, and that's sparsity.[00:46:00]But what you see from papers, like, the labs like moonshot deep seek, they go to the level of, okay, outside of just number of experts, you can also change how many attention heads and less attention layers. More attention. Layers. Layers, yeah. Yes, yes. So, and that's all basically coming back to, just tied together is like hardware model, co-design, which isKyle: hardware model, co model, context, co-design.Vibhu: Yeah.Kyle: Right. Like if you were training a, a model that was like. Really, really short context, uh, or like really is good at super short context tasks. You may like design it in a way such that like you don't care about attention scaling because it hasn't hit that, like the turning point where like the quadratic curve takes over.Nader: How do you consider attention or context as a separate part of the co-design? Like I would imagine hardware or just how I would've thought of it is like hardware model. Co-design would be hardware model context co-designKyle: because the harness and the context that is produced by the harness is a part of the model.Once it's trained in,Vibhu: like even though towards the end you'll do long context, you're not changing architecture through I see. Training. Yeah.Kyle: I mean you can try.swyx: You're saying [00:47:00] everyone's training the harness into the model.Kyle: I would say to some degree, orswyx: there's co-design for harness. I know there's a small amount, but I feel like not everyone has like gone full send on this.Kyle: I think, I think I think it's important to internalize the harness that you think the model will be running. Running into the model.swyx: Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Bash is like the universal harness,Kyle: right? Like I'll, I'll give. An example here, right? I mean, or just like a, like a, it's easy proof, right? If you can train against a harness and you're using that harness for everything, wouldn't you just train with the harness to ensure that you get the best possible quality out of,swyx: Well, the, uh, I, I can provide a counter argument.Yeah, sure. Which is what you wanna provide a generally useful model for other people to plug into their harnesses, right? So if youKyle: Yeah. Harnesses can be open, open source, right?swyx: Yeah. So I mean, that's, that's effectively what's happening with Codex.Kyle: Yeah.swyx: And, but like you may want like a different search tool and then you may have to name it differently or,Nader: I don't know how much people have pushed on this, but can you.Train a model, would it be, have you have people compared training a model for the for the harness versus [00:48:00] like post training forswyx: I think it's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's okay. Just extra post training. INader: see.swyx: And so, I mean, cognition does this course, it does this where you, you just have to like, if your tool is slightly different, um, either force your tool to be like the tool that they train for.Hmm. Or undo their training for their tool and then Oh, that's re retrain. Yeah. It's, it's really annoying and like,Kyle: I would hope that eventually we hit like a certain level of generality with respect to training newswyx: tools. This is not a GI like, it's, this is a really stupid like. Learn my tool b***h.Like, I don't know if, I don't know if I can say that, but like, you know, um, I think what my point kind of is, is that there's, like, I look at slopes of the scaling laws and like, this slope is not working, man. We, we are at a million token con

What happens when success, hustle, and constant work stop bringing fulfillment? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I talk with marketing strategist and entrepreneur Carlos Hidalgo about business growth, faith, burnout, and the hidden cost of hustle culture. Carlos shares his journey from corporate marketing leader to founder of Digital Exhaust, along with lessons from his book The UnAmerican Dream about work addiction, burnout, and redefining success. Their conversation explores why growth does not need to be complicated, why storytelling builds trust in business, and why boundaries matter more than work life balance. Carlos also opens up about faith, failure, relationships, and the power of honest conversations. You will hear practical insights on leadership, personal growth, community, and building a life that is both successful and meaningful. Highlights: ·  06:04 – Carlos explains how his faith became a personal relationship. ·  17:32 – Why he left corporate work to start his own business. ·  25:40 – His approach to making business growth simple. ·  30:17 – How hustle culture often leads to burnout. ·  42:29 – Why boundaries matter more than work life balance. ·  54:33 – Why real community helps solve loneliness. Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: Carlos Hidalgo is the co-founder and CEO of Digital Exhaust, a growth partner that helps clients make growth simple. Carlos serves his clients as an advisor, consultant, and teacher to ensure they have meaningful engagement with their customers at every stage of the journey and are able to mature and create sustainable growth. Carlos has 30 years of experience working with organizations of all sizes as an advisor, consultant, innovator, and growth expert. He is widely recognized for his expertise in demand generation, marketing, sales, and customer experience and for coaching executives in the areas of leadership and managing change. In addition to his work with his clients, Carlos has won numerous marketing awards and been named to several prestigious industry lists as a marketing leader. Carlos is also the author of Driving Demand, which is ranked as a top 5 marketing book of all time by Book Authority, and The UnAmerican Dream, which was released in 2019. In addition to books, Carlos is a well-known international keynote and TEDx speaker. You can follow Carlos on LinkedIn or on Twitter @cahidalgo Ways to connect with Scott**:** LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosahidalgo/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/CHidalgoJr Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cahidalgo_ Twitter/X: https://x.com/cahidalgo About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi and welcome once again to an episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, our guest is Carlos Hidalgo. Carlos has many facets about him. He's a speaker. He deals with growth and growth management and with his company. He tries to make growth simple for the people who are his clients. I'm interested in learning about that, but he does other things as well. He is also involved with his wife and marriage counseling, which is a little bit different than the one I think I find a lot of people to do. So I think we got lots to talk about. So, Carlos, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Carlos Hidalgo  01:59 Thank you for having me. Michael, it's an absolute pleasure. Well, let's Michael Hingson  02:03 start with the early Carlos, why don't you tell us about you growing up and all that sort of thing, and where you came from, where you're headed, or whatever. Carlos Hidalgo  02:14 Sure, I was born one of six children. I was the youngest for about four years, and then my my parents had two more. So I am smack dab in the middle of middle six siblings. Was born in New Jersey, but call where I'm at now home, which is a little town in the Adirondack Mountains. And the reason I call it home, I started coming to camp here when I was five years old. Fell in love with the area, and then my father, in 1983 moved us up here when I was 12, and fell more in love with it. And that lasted for four years. And then my junior of high school, or right after my sophomore year, was told, Hey, we're we're moving I was 16, I was pretty pissed off at the prospect of leaving a place I loved, so I had engineered a plan to stay through my junior and senior high school, which in my mind, made perfect sense in my parents' mind, and for reasons now I understand, because I'm a parent, did not make so much sense, but I came back as often as I could, and then my wife and I moved here back full time in 2021 we also lived here in the 90s for two years, had our first son here so but grew up really charmed childhood was my dad was in advertising, so we got tickets to Great sporting events. We had horses that I took care of, along with some of my siblings, developed a love of the outdoors, which I still hold, which is one of the many benefits of living up here again. And so, yeah, pretty, pretty much, early childhood was, you know, be outside as much as I can run around school work wasn't my strong suit, but I muddled through and I Michael Hingson  04:04 made it. Where in New Jersey were you born? Carlos Hidalgo  04:07 Was born in a little town called Randolph in northern jersey. Spent most of our time in a place called blairis town. Their claim to fame as a prep school called Blair Academy, which I believe is still there. And then, I believe it was the original Friday the 13th was filmed. Part of it was filmed in Blairstown. Yeah, yeah. So I'm dating myself just a little bit. Michael Hingson  04:32 Well, we lived in Westfield for six years, so kind of know, New Jersey, but yeah, while we were back there, my wife always wanted to move back to California. She's a native. I was born in Chicago. She wouldn't let me call myself a native, even though we moved to California when I was five. But yeah, it's okay. Carlos Hidalgo  04:50 Sure, yeah, people get a little touchy about the term native or local and how it's defined, right? Michael Hingson  04:55 Oh, yeah, it varies all around the country, but there's. Nothing. You can't say anything bad about Chicago. They have Garrett Popcorn there. If you've never had it, next time we go through O'Hare Airport, you should get some Garrett Popcorn. Carlos Hidalgo  05:09 Okay, I will do that absolutely. Michael Hingson  05:12 Take a memo. Get Garrett Popcorn. It's it's really good stuff. Well, so what did you do for college? Or did you? Carlos Hidalgo  05:21 Yeah, I went to my first year, I went to a school called Word of Life Bible Institute. So it's a one year intensive program, study of the Bible actually here, not far from, literally eight miles down the road here, from where I live now. And at that point, it was really just an excuse to get back to the Adirondacks for a year, but I learned a whole lot. Met some incredible people, some of who I'm still very, very close with today. And then from there, I transferred to Cedarville University in Ohio. At the time I went there, we were about 2500 students. I think today they're closer to 7500 but I met my wife there, which was that, in and of itself, the three years of tuition that I paid as I transferred in, but study Business Communication, again, I wasn't a great student. What I realized is, if it was the things that I really loved to participate in, it was awesome. I had a really great time studying communication and language and how we speak. I was two years on the debate team, which was such a great education in and of itself. But everything else I didn't really love. I just the general ed stuff. I kind of thought, well, if I can skate by and, you know, get that, get the passing the credits. So that's really how I want about it. And the reality is, the way things are taught today, I'm a very visual and hands on learner, and so to sit in a classroom and try to take notes and go through theory and things like that just makes my brain hurt a little bit. So I but I but I finished. I got the degree and made some great friendships in the process. Michael Hingson  07:04 Well and clearly, based on what you did for your first year, you have a Christian orientation, or definitely a god orientation as well. Carlos Hidalgo  07:15 Yeah, that's that's really my operating system. Michael, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. I base my life on it. I spend time in it each and every day. And so what's interesting in that regard is, yes, I went to the Bible Institute. So while I had a lot of head knowledge about the Bible and God and Jesus and all these things, it's really been in the last 10 years that I would say I had a deep, meaningful relationship with them, and that came as from a lot of experience in my life, a lot of dark, dark moments in my life that were self induced, unfortunately. But really, what it's done for me is it's just radicalized who I am, changed my heart. And so it's gone from a having a head knowledge of it to a real experience and an engagement with Christ through His Word and through prayer. Michael Hingson  08:11 Yeah, head knowledge is is a fine thing as far as it goes, but there's nothing like personally experience coming closer to whatever it is, including dealing with believing in God and really recognizing what what God brings. And my last book that I wrote that was published last year, called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith very much deals with with a lot of that, the whole concept of the value and the power of personal knowledge, as opposed to just head knowledge. I talk about the World Trade Center a lot in that book, specifically in terms of what I learned and how I developed a mindset to be able to control fear, rather than letting it be the thing that overwhelmed me or overwhelms anyone and and I've had a couple people on this podcast who talk about it, and they say the same sort of thing that you did. It's not about knowledge that you sort of intellectually know. It's what you really know. So people, for example, in evacuating the World Trade Center, would look at signs, and they would follow those and a lot of people were able to do that, but that's still not knowing that is really relying on something else that you may or may not really have access to. So True Knowledge is the only way to go Carlos Hidalgo  09:38 100% and I find that I gather that through experience, yeah. And so the example I use is, if you ask me about my wife, you know, do you know Suzanne? I would say, Oh, yeah. You know, blonde hair, blue eyes, about five, five. Funny, smart. I could tell you all the different facts, but there's a big difference when you sit and you get to experience being with her, seeing. Her, how she interacts with people, how she treats others, all of those things. Take that knowledge and actually make an experience an experience, yeah. And so that's been the difference for me, as it regard, in my relationship with Jesus Christ, yeah, well, Michael Hingson  10:14 and Suzanne, so that's good. Carlos Hidalgo  10:17 Well, so absolutely, 31 years and we're still going. There you go. Michael Hingson  10:21 Well, keep going. That's that's cool. That's great to have that kind of a relationship. It's all too often we don't see a lot of that in marriage, and just people get married without knowing and that leads to all sorts of potential challenges. So it's good to really get to know someone Carlos Hidalgo  10:41 absolutely, yeah, I'm still, still learning, still studying her and learning all I can, after 31 Michael Hingson  10:46 years, and she is too Yes, she is. Carlos Hidalgo  10:49 She does a phenomenal job. Michael Hingson  10:52 So what did you do after college? Carlos Hidalgo  10:56 After college, I actually moved back up here, where I'm at now. Worked for two years for Word of Life, the same group that ran the Bible Institute. So then, actually, unbeknownst to me, i My heart was really at that point, I wanted to go into law enforcement. My father in law was an FBI agent for 30 years. I'd always been intrigued by law enforcement, so I thought going into and getting a job for a few years, cutting my teeth while I filled out a resume. So started working in the office of donor development or advancement, and that was the first time I really started to get any exposure to anything formal, marketing wise. In the meantime, applied to the FBI, never went anywhere. Ended up applying again, never went anywhere at that point. Then we moved to we left here after two years of marriage and having one child. We moved to Michigan for a brief time, and then we went back to down to from Michigan. We went to Dallas, where we lived for 13 years, and I worked while I was still trying to get into law enforcement. I kept getting marketing jobs and companies. So eventually I gave up the dream of law enforcement and just followed what's unfolding and had a pretty good career in two software companies as a director of marketing to cut my teeth and learn what global business was all about do a lot of travel, which helped me career wise wasn't so great home wise or parent wise when you're away from your kids, but it's been my career for 30 plus years. I've had a heck of a career doing it and very grateful for it, but I still still get intrigued at the whole concept of law enforcement, but I'm afraid I'm a little too old at this point to start down that path. Michael Hingson  12:47 How come you kept not getting anywhere with it? Carlos Hidalgo  12:51 Well, I did get to a point where the FBI I took a test when we lived in Dallas, and just they called after said I had scored well, which made me chuckle, thinking back to my college days of test taking, but and then they said, Hey, do you speak Spanish, which I do not, despite my name, which is very Spanish, Carlo. And they said, Okay, well, we'll keep your we'll keep your application on file. Let you know if anything changes. And that was the last I heard. So at that point, I just thought, okay, I can keep pushing this and trying. But again, as things started to unfold in the software world, the jobs that I had took care of my family. They provided well for us. They gave me opportunities to learn new things, try new things, opportunity to, like I said, international business, which I never done before. So at that point, I just thought, you know, I'm kind of seven, eight years into this thing. What does this look like going forward? And then are we going to have to just hit reset in all facets of our lives, financially, where our kids are settled, for me to go into law enforcement. So I abandoned it, and I'm okay with that. I think it would have been a phenomenal career. I would have loved it, like I said. I'm still intrigued by it, I still have great respect for it, but it just wasn't in the cards for me, and I'm okay with that. I think sometimes the way we grow is through the death of a dream. Michael Hingson  14:21 Yeah, I know I've always been intrigued by law and law enforcement, and I know that they're never going to hire me, and now they won't, right, but, but they wouldn't hire me, but I took, actually, some courses in college dealing with police and other things like that, because I was, and still am fascinated by it, and I have a great respect for the law. And I I admire good lawyers who are knowledgeable, who really are in it to deal with the law. And you can tell those from the typical ambulance type chaser who manipulates, but, but. I really appreciate the law. I in my life have had the opportunity to be involved with some efforts of the National Federation of the Blind, where we've gone several times to Washington to meet with congressional types. And so I've met some interesting people, met Ted Kennedy, met Tip O'Neill when he was still speaker, Senator Saugus from Massachusetts and others, and found and through them, got to meet some people who were truly committed to what they were doing. They weren't in it for the power. They were in it to try to really help the country and help their individual constituencies in their states and so on. It's a lot of fun. Carlos Hidalgo  15:47 Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure it was, I that's quite a roster of people you've been able to engage with, and I'm sure, no doubt, influence well. Michael Hingson  15:57 And we were there to talk about legislation that we needed. But I'll never forget first time we went in and we met Paul Tsongas. We talked about what we wanted to talk about, and he said, Well, it's the end of the day. What are you guys doing now? And we said, well, we're just going to go back to the hotel. And he said, You got a few minutes talk to you about Massachusetts. Well, we ended up staying for two hours. It was a lot of fun. Carlos Hidalgo  16:19 Wow, yeah, that is a lot of fun. I had an opportunity a number of years ago to do a tour of the West Wing, which was just phenomenal. So when you get, when you get those opportunities, I don't care what side of the aisle you may sit on or are partial to, the answer is yes, take it, because you learn a whole lot, and it's it gives you a whole new appreciation for our country. Michael Hingson  16:40 Well, 20 years ago, I was invited to come back and meet George W Bush because a congressman I had met was fascinated by my story and the story of my guide dog, Roselle, and he arranged for us to meet George W and we went back. It was supposed to be a brief, like two minute just photo op. This ended up being like a 15 minute conversation, and then it was a lot of fun. And I hope that we inspired him some, and we made a difference. And, you know, that's always a good thing. Carlos Hidalgo  17:13 Yeah, at the end of the day, right there people just like us. They are, I think the and I've heard that a lot about George W is his investment in people where he knew his you know, everybody in the staff that he knew their names, he knew about their families. So it doesn't surprise me that a two minute Meet and Greet was extended a little bit. Michael Hingson  17:34 We kept the Italian Prime Minister waiting while we finished our conversation, as it turns out, that's fine, Carlos Hidalgo  17:42 but it was good. There you go. There's your there, there's your the two truth and the lie icebreaker that they have. You do sometimes. There's, you can work that in, Michael Hingson  17:49 I could work that in, yeah, that would be, yeah, I should do that. Well, it was, but it was, it was, it was very enjoyable to be able to do that. Well. So now, so when did you start your own company? That's been a little while, at least. Carlos Hidalgo  18:04 Yeah, I started my first company that I started, I co founded with my brother. In 2005 I was working at the software company, and I just, I started to just have an edge of, you know, I should start something. I don't know what that looks like. And I remember one time just talking to my wife, and I said, I don't want to be 7580 years old. And think, what if, yeah, and my wife is very practical. And she said, Okay, so go for it, and if it doesn't work, just go get another job. And when she broke it down like that, I just thought, wow. Okay, she, I think she believes in me more than I do. So in 2005 I left the software company and we started a agency. And really, at that point for me, the Yes, I wanted to start my own company and see if I could do it. But the the big driving factor was my at that point, I we had four children, so we have four, and they were all pretty small, and I was traveling all over the country, and I didn't want to miss their childhood. And I remember coming home from trips and hearing conversations or seeing things that that I wasn't a part of, and I thought this, this isn't right. I need to be here. I need to be home. So I went to the software company, asked them what they thought they became my first client, and I did that for from 2005 to just early 2017 when I resigned my position as CEO there just to get my life back and kind of hit the reset button again, but this time, I meant it, so I left, and they're still going. But that was my first foray into entrepreneurship, and I just kept doing it since I started another consultancy, and now this is my third one, and also been part of about two to three other companies that. We launched, but never made it. So I enjoy the whole process. I love it, but, yeah, it's, I don't know. I mean, I will never say never, but the idea of not working for myself seems rather foreign to me. Michael Hingson  20:16 So the first company you had for 12 years, what did that do? Carlos Hidalgo  20:21 We were a mark. Marketing Yeah, we were a marketing services company. So we worked with business to business companies to help them in their demand generation, acquiring new customers and also customer growth. So that's really where a lot of my career has been sent, centered right, helping companies design them strategies, everything from content to technology to developing personas and putting together strategies on how to reach them when they're looking for something to buy that that client offers. Michael Hingson  20:52 Okay, well, that makes sense and certainly a worthy thing to do. So, when did you form your current company, digital exhaust, which is a very clever name, you'll have to tell me about that. Carlos Hidalgo  21:04 Oh yeah, there's a little bit of a story behind that. So I was working in 2022 early 2022 I had an offer to go be the Chief Revenue Officer of another agency, which I my wife and I talked about it, we prayed about it, and I had a really, really close friend of mine who was their chief strategy officer at the time, so the ability to work with him, stay in the industry and work with some really good clients, I jumped at, so I took that role over that role lasted eight months. I won't get into all those details of why? Never, never, really did get a clear answer. The answer I was given, not exactly. The numbers didn't the number. I'll just say the numbers proved otherwise. All that said that came to an end in 2023 I believe. Yeah, yeah, 2023 and so February, 23 so at that point, I was like, Okay, well, what do I do? I can try to go get a job, which I did. Nobody was really interested in, you know, early 50s, guy coming in. So, you know, did the interview thing. And then I just thought, Well, why don't, why don't I just bet on myself again and go for it. So at that point, the my friend who was the chief strategy officer, he had also left, so he and I started talking and thought, why don't we just do this together? You know, services he loves to implement, I love to sell. Let's just see if we can make a run at this. So here we are now. It'll be four years in or three years, I guess, in February or April of 26 and we're still alive to talk about it. And so that's how it came to be. It was really just, I've done this before. There's no security, no more security. I believe in working for somebody else than working for yourself. So bet on yourself and put out your shingle and see what you can make happen. Michael Hingson  23:06 Where did the name digital exhaust come from? That's a clever name. Carlos Hidalgo  23:10 Oh, thank you. We were, we were batting around so many different names, and we just had a thing, I think we had a running Google Sheet, like, let's just throw names up there. And then I was listening to a recording of a vendor that we had done work with in our early days, and he was talking about how you can track the digital movements of someone. And he said, You know, so basically, you know, they're leaving behind their digital exhaust. And he used the term twice. So I called my then partner, Tracy, and I said, Hey, what do you think about the name digital exhaust as a company? And he was like, Oh, I love it. So I said, Well, before we that, we have to call Dan and see if he would be okay. So I did some looking, you know, the whole trademark search, and when I told our partner about it. He said, Oh my word, I love it. He said, Never, never even thought that that could be a name, but if you guys want it, go for it. So we took it and it is, it's, it's, we think it's pretty unique, and it also describes a lot of what we do with customer data to get an understanding of how do you engage with them, where are they, and how are they going to interact with you and your brand? How so well. Again, he was right. I can look at your digital footprint or your digital behavior. I can see what sites you've visited, what web pages you visited, how much time you spend on a product piece, how much content you engage so I can look at all of that behind the scenes. Start to score that if you're an account that I want to go after, or if I'm a lead based sale, that gives me a lot of intelligence on what you're interested in. And then there's ways to kind of, from a insight perspective, determine where you are in that journey, whether it's your four. First time as a purchase, you're a current customer and you're interested in purchasing something else. So it gives us a lot of insight into that, so that I can message you or I also know when should sales place a phone call to you and start that conversation. So that's why we use the term digital exhaust, because, again, it's a lot of what we do and how we use our customer data. Michael Hingson  25:20 Several years ago, I watched a 60 Minutes program, gosh, I don't know it's actually a number of years ago. And one of the segments there was a guy who was on he was a private detective, and what he said was, I can tell more about you than most anyone else can simply by looking at your trash. And in fact, I can't remember if it was Mike Wallace or not. Who was the interviewer, but they went on investigated some trash cans and and this guy could just tell you so much about your entire life just by looking at what was in the trash can. It was really pretty amazing and and I don't mean that in any way as a negative thing, but it's very clever that people have that insight. So I appreciate what you're saying about digital exhaust. It makes perfect sense. Carlos Hidalgo  26:17 Well, good. I'm glad it does. It means we've hit the mark. I'm not I will say this. I'm not going to go through my customers trash, but I am not surprised that if you did how much you could learn about somebody, 100% but Michael Hingson  26:30 you do look at their their digital footprint and so again, and it makes perfect sense that you can learn so much that can help you, help them grow. Yes, absolutely gives incredible insight. You talk about making growth simple, tell me more about what that means. Carlos Hidalgo  26:51 Yeah, you know, I've been in the space a long time, and that really came a couple years ago. We started seeing different models that would come up different frameworks that would come out from different vendors. Started talking, you know, I talked to a lot of chief marketing officers in my role, and over and over, what we saw was just complexity of taking terms that everybody would know and applying a new term or creating a new term to replace the old term, because you wanted to stay edgy. And I finally had a CMO who said to me, this is all so complex. Is there any any organization out there, or any way to just make this simple? And I thought, Gee, I kind of been thinking the same thing, because I see all these talking heads out there on LinkedIn and at these conferences showing these overly complex, overly engineered models, and I'm like, You got to be a PhD to implement that thing. And again, I'm also a pretty simple guy. I don't think growth needs to be all that hard if you know your customer, what they need, when they need it, and why it's important to them. I'm going to be able to sell you quite a bit. I'm also going to be able to be a better marketing, better partner to you, because I'll be the first one to be able to tell you you don't need that, or you need that, but you shouldn't get it from us, and here's why. And so we just started saying, You know what? Let's create with our models. And we have models and we have frameworks, but we want them to be kind of what Apple is, right, really innovative, where you can use it. You don't necessarily have to have someone to guide you through it. And so let's just make it as simple as possible for our clients to grow their companies without these over engineered models, which mostly a lot of them are created to sell stuff. And while we want to sell stuff more, so we want to help customers be better at what they do. And so that's why we say is we want to help you make growth simple, cut through the clutter, get to what matters and move forward. Michael Hingson  28:58 Yeah, which makes a lot of sense. By by any standard, how do you find storytelling comes into what you do and how you interact with customers? Carlos Hidalgo  29:11 Yeah, it's really important in the beginning, right in the beginning stages. Anytime I'm engaging with you, if I'm a consumer and you're a brand, I want to your brand should tell a story about who you are, the value that the customer gets when they're going to interact with you, they're going to use your product, what you stand for. Can they trust you? Trust is huge. Right now. We live in a trust economy. I want to know that if you say something, I can you're going to stand behind it. So all of those things are come through in terms of story. Now, what I've always said is I think that story is important. But when it comes to now, especially in the world I live in business to business, once I get into maybe I want to purchase something for you or purchase your product. Now I. Moves from a story to a dialog because I started, I start need, needing to know, what are you interested in? What are your challenges? What are your needs, what are your pain points? And as you're telling me that I can respond more in a conversation, I can still use parts of the story, but now it's a two way dialog, even in a digital world. So if I can create that, that's fantastic, then you become my customer. And now I still want to keep telling you stories. I want to tell you a story about why you can trust us. I tell you a story about how I interact with you. I tell you a story about how I deliver service and how I help you onboard. So all that bleeds into what we call, you know, what I call the big customer experience, from brand engagement to what I'm buying to now that I become a customer, all of those are experiential factors that we have to consider. Michael Hingson  30:49 Well, yeah, and I think that storytelling is a very significant part of selling and sales, because it's part of what really helps create the trust, because people can see through it, if you're just blowing smoke or playing games. Carlos Hidalgo  31:05 Yes, they can absolutely. And you only get one shot if that's what you're gonna do only, yeah, once I realized that forget it, I'm not coming back, that brand loyalty is away real quick. Michael Hingson  31:16 Yeah. So do you encounter in the interactions that you have with people with a lot of burnout or who are going that way. Carlos Hidalgo  31:25 Oh yeah. It's, it's something that I went through in 2016 it's, it's a, I mean, the World Health Organization, whatever you think about them, they definitely have listed it as a illness or as a condition. So it's something that I've seen. It's something that I've written against quite a bit. I don't think we need to get there, but I also think it is part of the consequence, or the outcome of when we make work center of our universe, and we make work our God, when that's going to happen then, yeah, you're going to experience burnout. And I think burnout comes in different flavors, but I see a lot of people who are going through it, trying to work through it, trudge through it. I heard the term the other day, manage burnout. I don't know why you would want to manage burnout. I think you need to take steps to avoid burnout, to avoid it. Michael Hingson  32:17 Yeah, why is it so many people face it, and are experiencing burnout is because they just deal with work, they don't relax, or what. Carlos Hidalgo  32:27 Well, I think there's a lot, lot in that. I've done a lot of study, and that was the topic of some of the topic of my book that I released in 2019 the UN American dream is, I think we, especially in our Western culture, we have adopted this idea that the busier I am, the more important, the more valuable I am, and so and the reality is, none of us are well wired to go, go, go, go, go. Rest is actually a gift from the Lord. And you know, I think very few of us. But you know, think about the last time you talked to anybody. How are you? Oh, I'm so busy. We love to be busy. We love to have jam packed calendars, because it makes us feel good. The other part of it is when you think about workaholism, you know, that is an addiction. And the only time in my experience, we engage with or become addicted to something, it's when we're trying to avoid something else. And so think our workaholism, which leads to burnout, is right up there with our rising rates of anxiety, of depression, of loneliness, because we have bought a false narrative that if we go, go go, we jam pack our calendars, we work like and work like crazy until we hit some imaginary number or we can call it quits. That's what life is all about. And I just sit there and you know, my number one question to people who are running that race is, how's it working for you? You don't seem really happy right now, you don't seem fulfilled, and you're living on the promise of some day and some days, not a day in the week, right? Michael Hingson  34:03 I People ask me, How are you all the time? And my response is something actually that I borrowed from somebody else. I just say, I'm lovely. Yeah, I get lots of reactions from that. It's kind of cute, but it's great. You know, I I agree with you, there is a there's a need and a time, and it's appropriate to not work all the time. Yes, we we don't ever take time even just to sit and think about what we did today. We don't take time at the end of the day to go in our own brains. How did this work out? How did that work out? Why didn't this work? Why did this work? What could I do to make it better and then listen for answers? It's like praying. So many people, when they pray to God, they pray to Jesus and so on. They spend all their time praying and saying what they want, never realizing God all. And he knows that, yeah, when are you going to start listening for answers and really listening? And that's, that's the challenge that I see so often people don't listen, and the answers are always there. They're in their inner the the inner voice that they can hear if they but practice well. Carlos Hidalgo  35:17 And I think to part of that is you need to be still, right? And we see that in scripture where we're told be still and know that I am God, if I mean there, there. We have so much noise and so much input with our phones and constant, you know, interaction and constant noise. We don't give ourselves the ability to sit and think and process, to just to be still. And that is something that I would say, really, for me, over the last decade, has come into focus of I enjoy my downtime. I enjoy the silence that I it's one of the reasons when I run, I don't run with headphones. In my own little world, in my head, praying, thinking about things. There are times I'll drive in the car without the radio on, just in silence, and I tell people, then they look at me like, I have three heads. Yeah, I'm like, oh, it's I am so much better for it, because I'm no longer living life reactively. I'm able to live life in a way that brings me a lot of peace, a lot of joy, a lot of happiness. And when I work, I work really, really hard, but it's definitely not the center of my universe. Michael Hingson  36:27 I know people think I'm crazy, but I can go days without looking well, not days. I'll go a day. I do it volitionally, but I can go quite a while without looking at text messages, and when I do, their message is there sometimes, but I know that I could actually go for a considerable length of time without needing to carry my phone around. Now, the only reason I do carry it around, I mean, clearly some phone calls can come in and so on, but I use other tools on it that you have access to in other ways. So I use it for those things. But the bottom line is, is that I don't need to have this phone with me to stay in touch with people all the time. So if I carry my phone more often than not, I will be in a hotel room listening to something on the phone and, sure, relaxing, rather than all the other things that one could do with it well. Carlos Hidalgo  37:25 And the number of people that I talked to and research shows this that, you know, the last I saw was over 60% it's the first thing people do when they wake up is they reach over and look at their phone and I say, sit there and say, What is so important that you can't even wait 15 minutes from the time your eyes open. But we've become addicted. We've come addicted to the noise, to the constant, go, go, go. And then, you know, we have a friend of ours last year was just, I'm so busy. I'm so busy. Told my wife, over the next three months, I only have this one day I can do lunch. And then you start realizing, like, Well, really, that's, that's how you want to live your life over the next 90 days, you only have one day. Now, I didn't believe it when I heard that. I don't think they were trying to make excuse, and I don't think lying. I think in their heads, they really had this belief of, oh, I can. I've only got one day out of the next 90, but we've weed ourselves into believing that this is how we should be living life. Yeah, and it's not how I want to live life. I'll work hard, I'll put everything I've got into my clients and my business and things like that, but I don't want to be that strapped. I was that strapped one time, time wise and work wise, and it made me absolutely miserable. Mm, hmm. Michael Hingson  38:45 I know when I wake up in the morning I do reach for my phone right at the beginning. One of the very first things that I do is reach for it to see what the temperature is outside, to see what the temperature is your house, to see whether I want to turn the heater on, you know, but I don't look at messages. I don't need to do that. I'll do it eventually, but, you know, I So, as I say, I use it for other tools, but I use the phone, because that's the tool that's available to me that gives me that information, and it'll help me decide, do I want to turn the heater on, or do I want to turn the air conditioner off? And that's what I do. And then I put the phone down, and I start visiting with the dog and the cat, and we have conversations which is, which is kind of fun, Carlos Hidalgo  39:29 but yeah, you get to enjoy life. Michael Hingson  39:32 I remember, remember the old technology town? Now it's old Blackberry. Oh yeah, the black and Research In Motion. There was one night when Research In Motion lost communications with all of the blackberries, and every BlackBerry went dead, I think, for about 12 hours. But I heard that even during the time when that occurred, people committed suicide because they had no way to look at their blackberries. And. Get information. And I always thought you're that dependent, that you can't cope for a while, especially at night without that information. Carlos Hidalgo  40:09 Come on. Yeah, it's staggering. The number of, again, over 50% of people said that they would be panicked if they want an app without their phones and so and again, I used to, I used to live that way. So I understand it to a degree, but, well, I understand it. Yeah, I also tell people you don't have to live that way, because people i The people I know who live that way, don't seem very content or fulfilled, right, right? Which is really the issue, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely, because we only go, we only get one shot at this life, and I want to make the most of it. Michael Hingson  40:43 Make growth simple. Carlos Hidalgo  40:46 That's right, personal, personal and business wise, right? Michael Hingson  40:49 Personal and business wise. So what is hustle culture? Carlos Hidalgo  40:54 Well, hustle culture has been promoted by a lot of folks, a whole lot more well known that I am, you know, where Kevin O'Leary for Shark Tank, Shark Tank talks about, you got to be willing to work eight days a week, you know, and give everything you've got, you know. Gary Vaynerchuk talks about, you know, go, go, go, go. And, you know, we just see it out there of this, you've got to be willing to go above and beyond. If you want to have success, if you want to make this money, you've got to just make sure you're willing to hustle at all costs, which to me, there's a place for that. As I said, when I'm working I hustle. I work hard. I get in a zone. I kind of block everything out and and there are some weeks where we require over and above it. You know, 16 or a week is is not something that has never been done. But the difference is, there's a couple of differences. Is I'm going to work hard because that's what I'm told to do. In Scripture, it says that with everything you do, do it with all your might and do it to the glory of glory of the Lord. So I'm going to do that. Plus work was one of the first things that God ever created. He told Adam in the garden, I want you to work now, what we also see is that it was cursed when man sinned, and it was part of the curse in the garden. But I do believe work is noble. I believe it's valuable, I believe it has so many things that can teach us. So I'm working. I'm hustling hard when I'm working, but this idea that I need to give everything I have to my business so that I'm successful. Well, what about our relationships? What about our own our last word, too, right? Our own physical health? What about my marriage? All of these things that require work yet, you know, you got a guy like Grant Cardone talking about 95 hour work weeks. That's insanity. Yeah, at what point, you know, so to me, I really believe, and I've had some people who've argued with me over this. If you want to know what the object of your affection is, show me where you're spending the most time and attention. And it's not time or attention, time and attention, right? I cannot. I cannot be, quote, unquote, working, but I can be with my wife, but my brain is working. My brain is thinking about my work, thinking about my business, thinking about my career. So what good is it to her if I'm there or not? Yeah, I'm not investing in that relationship, and that is just as much work as anything else. And I would I would say the rewards are better and the gratification that much deeper. So can work life balance actually be attained? I don't believe in work life balance. I believe in boundaries, and maybe I'm splitting hairs, but when I see that, over 70% of people say that work life balance is unachievable. It tells me it doesn't exist. It's also the only place in our lives where we talk we try to separate work from life. Nobody talks about finance life, business, kids life, business, marriage life, business. But we talk about work life balance. Now I understand we spend a lot of time at work in our modern day culture, but if I can decide that I'm going to put boundaries around the things that matter most to me, so like work, like my relationships, like my physical, mental and emotional health, my spiritual health, and that's how I've started to live life. Is instead of trying to balance everything, I'm going to set boundaries. So what does that look like? Well, the first thing I do in the morning is not check the phone. I get up, I pray. I have coffee with my wife. Sometimes we have really deep conversations. Sometimes we look just let the caffeine kick in and let it wake up, and then we set time in prayer. So every day, pretty much between 815 and 830 I'm at my desk ready to work, but I've put a boundary around that morning time, which allows me to start the time with with my Bible and with my wife from 830 To about 1230 I'm locked in. I am working. There's a boundary around there's a boundary. And then about 1230 to one, about two o'clock, that's my workout. Either go to the gym or I go for a run, come home, make my protein stuff, and then I'm back working again. And so and then when I'm done work, between 530 and six, I shut it down. Work is over, and now it's my personal life again, and whatever that looks like, and some of that is seasonal, because of where I live, in the summer, it'll get stay light till 930 and the winter, it gets dark by 430 there's quite a disparity. But because I have those boundaries, I know that I'm able to bring the best of myself to each of those areas of my life, and that is far easier than balance. And when one of those boundaries needs to move, I get to have a conversation. Hey, I've got a call tonight overseas. Or do we have anything? Are we good if I take this call at 730 at night? So I take the call at 730 at night, but I have that discussion, and it's it takes more effort to move a boundary, takes very little effort to get knocked off balance. Michael Hingson  46:05 Yeah, and I think that makes perfect sense. I know for me, when Karen was here, we we enjoyed breakfast and we enjoyed dinner, and I think there's a lot of value in that. Now, I was always the earlier riser, but partly because I worked for companies that kind of required that. That is to say I worked, for example, when I lived in the east for California companies. So I ended up being there later. But when I worked in the West, calling the east, I had to be in work by six, because that's what I needed to do. But we agreed on that, and I hear exactly what you're saying. The fact of the matter is that you've got to really make some decisions, but if you're in a relationship, then you both have to agree and make the decisions together, which is what really should happen 100% Carlos Hidalgo  46:58 and those boundaries will change. I mean my boundaries now that I'm an empty nester, you know, had I lived this way 15 years ago, would have looked far different because I still had children at home. And so the boundaries can shift and change. But to your point, you have to talk about that. And what I have come to believe is that if I'm making those decisions in regards to my business, my job, my career, and I'm not having the conversation with my significant other, then I'm not I'm not sacrificing anything. I'm just selfish. And yet, what we see is, Oh, you got to sacrifice for your business. I've said to couples before, if you and your wife believe and want to say, hey, we want to go build this thing and we want to go sell it so we know the next five years we're hardly going to see each other, and we're both on board with that, and this is what we want. Go in peace. I think you're nuts, but Go in peace, but still, you made the decision together. That's right, and that's the difference. And I find that a lot of people do not do that, and I also think it adds to the stress and the loneliness and the anxiety and the depression is because we're chasing something that is so fleeting, and no matter what Empire we may build professionally, we can't take it with us, right? Michael Hingson  48:13 And that's something that I wish more people would truly realize. It would make for a much happier world. Carlos Hidalgo  48:21 It would. But the unfortunate part is, until the pain and consequence of how you're living outweighs the fear of change, most likely you're never going to do anything different, right? 48:31 So tell me, Carlos Hidalgo  48:32 oh, go ahead. No. Oh, okay, tell me about the Michael Hingson  48:36 title of the book, the UN American Dream. Where did that come from? And why did you name the book that, why was that the title? And so on, Carlos Hidalgo  48:42 yeah, and so in 2016 is when I informed the company that I had started with my brother 11 years earlier that I was stepping down. Didn't really know what that looked like. I literally just one day, through the help of a friend and God's good grace, decided that it was time for me to go. And so the way they wanted to handle it in end of the year, and I think this was like end of October ish, when I made that decision, they said, You know what, let's not announce anything. We don't want our clients to get spooked in q4 so let's wait until the turn of the the new year. So that was into 2017 so I made a post, and I published it in February, 2017 about why I was leaving the company, some of the things that I was learning along the way. And what surprised me was the phone calls and emails I got from colleagues who said, Hey, I just read your post. Can we talk? I'm kind of thinking about the same thing. I'm miserable. And it was one email in particular that still stands out, where he said, I'm miserable. I started to think like, wow, okay, this, this is not just me. My circumstances were different. But this seems to be a problem, so I started to just do some research on our obsession with work, the number of hours we work, this idea of balance and hustle culture. Really immersed myself in it, and I thought this isn't what Truslow Adams meant when he coined the term the American dream. We're killing ourselves for what like, for What's the objective here to just add another zero to my bank account. So as I started to do that research, I saw myself and a lot of that same story, and the mistakes I made and how I was, you know, I had put my business first all the things that we've talked about. And I thought, Man, this is really quite un American, really, because we say we're the land of the free and the home of the brave, but we're not free if we're slaves to our company or our jobs or our careers. So I thought, You know what? I think what we're doing to ourselves is un American, and we're chasing the UN American dream, and that's how I came up with the title, Michael Hingson  51:05 who have been some of your greatest influencers? Carlos Hidalgo  51:09 Wow, I have had a lot. Obviously, my parents have been huge influences in my life. My mom is a fierce prayer warrior, and so I fervently believe I would not be where I'm at today if it wasn't for her and her faithfulness and that and my dad is it has been in marketing and sales and advertising. So learned a lot from him, just in life, and then also in business. There's a gentleman who lives up the street who is kind of like a second dad to me, it's an interesting relationship, because his son is also my best friend, but gentleman by the name of Keith Vander wheel who is salt of the earth, wise, just a wise, wise man has loved me, has when needed, given me a swift kick in the rear end, and just really helped keep keep me focused, and been one of these guys that I can go to, and it's a little about almost 20 years older than I am, so he's one that has seen more and done more. So I'm thankful for that. And then I am very fortunate to have about three or four very, very dear, dear friends, close friends, I mentioned one, Keith's son, who spur me on to greater things, encourage me when necessary, rebuke me and help me. And then I would say, more than anything, my wife, I learned stuff from her each and every day, her steadfastness, Her Grace, her strength of character, she is absolutely the strongest person I know, and has been the biggest influence in my life. Michael Hingson  52:45 I when I was in college, did radio, and I've always liked comedy. I've always liked trying to be a little bit flip and so on, yep. But I will tell you that my wife constantly amazed me. She was pretty much a lot more straight faced and straight laced than i But when she came out with a zinger, it came out of left field, and you never saw coming. She was amazing. Clearly, she observed me a whole lot more than I thought she did, right? Carlos Hidalgo  53:18 And what a gift that is to have. My wife and I were just, we went out for brunch today, with it being the holiday, and I just, I told her, I said, I just love how much we laugh. Yeah, what a gift that is to have in your marriage. We're just laughing together and laughing at each other in a way that's not demeaning, but appreciates our differences. And you know, we can tease each other and enjoy it and know it comes from a place of love, yeah. Michael Hingson  53:42 How do we deal with the epidemic of loneliness in our lives and in our world? Carlos Hidalgo  53:48 Wow, that's a great question. It's first of all, I think it's heartbreaking. I see this especially with men. And statistics would show that that men especially struggle with loneliness. I think number one is we have to come to the realization we were not meant to live in isolation. We are communal beings. God created us to live in community, and we need to step into that. And part of that is letting your guard down and being vulnerable and letting people know where you struggle. Now I'm not talking about wearing your heart on your sleeve and walking right every stranger and spilling, but those closest of relationships, and I can say, you know, for me, when I isolated, that's when I became the worst form of myself and went to places I never thought I would go. And so I think loneliness, first of all, get off social media and your phone, because that's not a connection. No, your friends, all of your 1000s of friends on Facebook, are not true friends. They're people, you know, but they're not people that are going to walk with you through some of the hardest times of your lives, and so find those. Group, find that community, whether it's your church, whether it's a small group that you take part in, whether it's people at your work, but really start to invest in those relationships and bring as much to it as you're expecting them to. And for me, it became just with those closest relationships. I'm an open book. I'm not going to BS. I'm going to talk about what's on my heart, what I'm struggling with, what my victories are, what my low points are. And for me, that starts with my spouse. As I mentioned, I've got three other men in my life that are around my age that I can confide in, be open with, and it's the most freeing, wonderful thing, and it's their relationships that I cherish, and I think that's how we end this cycle of loneliness. But I think a lot of people have been duped. Well, I'm on I've got a bunch of friends online, yeah, you know, put the phone down, get off your social media platform and go be human and interact with other people. Michael Hingson  56:01 It gets back to the same thing we talked about earlier. There's a whole big difference between head knowledge and really knowing. And the friends who are truly your friends are people who you know and who know you and that you can truly be honest with and who will be honest with you. And that is not something that you get from all those Facebook friends. Otherwise, you're being awfully silly, right? Carlos Hidalgo  56:23 And I also think we have to get out of this idea in our culture that if I don't affirm you, I somehow don't like you anymore, this idea that tolerance and love are the same thing. Some of my closest friends have been some of the ones that have come to me and said, Hey, here's what we've observed, and we're sure you don't like that about you, and you know this needs to change. And I love that. I love that I friends who will call my stuff and a wife who will say to me, this isn't the best you like what's going on here? I need that in my life, because if all I want to do is have people pat me on the back and affirm me. I'm going to get entitled pretty quick. Yeah, and that doesn't help at all. Right? How do we bring civil discourse to our society? We're in an environment and in a world where we just don't appreciate or have conversations anymore. How do we deal with that? Well, I think a couple of things. First of all, I think we have to get back to an appreciation for and a respect for human life and humanity in general. Michael, I'm sure if you and I spent a few hours together, we would eventually land on a topic that we don't just that we don't agree on. I can be okay with that, and because if I'm open to say, Hey, Michael is a human being. He's smart. He's overcome incredible odds in his life, and maybe if I listen, I can learn something. Doesn't mean I'm going to come to your side of the the position, but I can at least learn something. But I think systematically, over decades, we've been denigrating the the value of human life. I mean, how many millions of babies have we aborted in this country? You know, your your own story, your parents were told, hey, just put him in a home. He's not going to amount to anything because of his blindness. That's insanity, you know. So today, instead of civil discourse, if I don't like you, I berate you online, I make something up about you, or I kill you. And right so and to tell you how far we've gone, not only does that happen, but then we're gonna have people who celebrate in the murder of whether it's an insurance CEO or a Charlie Kirk, or anybody, and I just sit there and say, Okay, we've we've gotten so far right civil discourse. And so I think number one is just a respect and a value for human life, which we have a lot of work to do there. And then number two, again, back to what I said, this idea that if I disagree with you, I somehow don't love you anymore. And the example I use is this idea of, well, you need we need more tolerance and affirmation. There was a time Michael where my behavior within our marriage just was unacceptable. I mean, I was cheating on my wife, and once she found out she still loved me, but she couldn't tolerate the behavior for reasons that I think I need to explain. So at that point, you say, All right, well, how do those two things work together? If I had kept doing what I was doing, I know for 100% she would have loved me till the day she died, but she died, but she wouldn't have been able to stay with me, because you can't tolerate that behavior. She's supposed to affirm that. And so this idea that because I quote, unquote, love you, I affirm you, I actually make the case that if I love you, I'm going to help you be the best form of yourself, which sometimes means disagreeing with you and pointing things out in your life. That are unhealthy, that's fair. So I think we have to get back to that place of we can have disagreement, still have respect for each other. We can disagree vehemently and still do it respectfully, right? And then at the end of the day, I can respect your position because of who you are as a person, and that you know, giving you the benefit of the doubt. This is a well thought out position. And so, okay, great. We agree to disagree. We can still be friends, yeah? Michael Hingson  1:00:27 And we might learn something, or at least be put on a path where we think about it, and we may discover that, oh, that person's right, correct, yeah, which is Carlos Hidalgo  1:00:36 cool, yeah, and it's not that hard. And again, no, do your do your homework. Know what the real issues are, and stop reading headlines on social media. Michael Hingson  1:00:46 Yeah, really, get away from that. What else should we know about you? Carlos Hidalgo  1:00:50 Well, I'm the father of four amazing kids spread all over the country, ages 30 to 20. He'll be 24 in 10 days, and then an amazing daughter in law, soon to be daughter in law, my second son is engaged, gets married next year. I love the outdoors, anything outside. And I would say, if I want your audience to remember anything, it's that what Jesus Christ has done in my life has been nothing short of amazing. And like I said at the beginning, this is my operating system, and it's who I am and my reason for being in each and every day. And I sit here and I just am in awe of the life I get to live. So I'm very, very thankful and very, very humbled by it all. Michael Hingson  1:01:36 If people want to reach out to you and maybe explore working with your company, using your company to help them. How do they do that? Carlos Hidalgo  1:01:43 Yeah, you can email me at Carlos at Digital exhaust.co it's not.com so make sure it.co's or I won't get it. So you can shoot me an email visit our website, which is digital exhaust.co or looked me up on LinkedIn, just Carlos adalgo, H, I, D, A, L, G, O, right. That is correct. Yeah. I appreciate you getting the name right on the introduction. So thank you for that. I worked at it well. Michael Hingson  1:02:12 I want to thank you for being here. This has been wonderful. And as I tell people all the time, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else on this podcast, and I'm not doing my job well, which means I do need to listen and think about it. And I appreciate all the insights that you gave us today, and I appreciate all of you being here and being with Carlos and me. Love to get your thoughts. Please reach out to Carlos. Please email me at Michael H i, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but most of all, wherever you're listening or watching the pod podcast, please give us a five star review and a rating. We love that. We love your your input, please. Of course, I want it always to be positive, but I'll take whatever you send because we we value that. And for all of you and Carlos, you as well, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on the podcast. We'd love it if you'd let us know we're always looking to meet more people to help show that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And with that, I want to thank you again, Carlos, for being here. This has been absolutely fun. Carlos Hidalgo  1:03:13 Michael, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. Michael Hingson  1:03:20 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m

There is a storm coming with the challenges of navigating the TRUSTEE CRISIS. It is one of the biggest blind spots in the “GREAT WEALTH TRANSFER” and will be the source of mountains of litigation for the unwary, https://youtu.be/hwQev88A03M Summary In this conversation, Frazer Rice and Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey discuss the current crisis in trusteeship, highlighting the shortage of qualified trustees amidst a significant wealth transfer. They explore the importance of modern trust planning, the challenges faced by individual trustees, and the need for better education and training in the field. The discussion also covers the emotional and interpersonal aspects of trusteeship, the functions and responsibilities of trustees, and the necessity of managing risk effectively. They emphasize the importance of building a pipeline for future trustees and improving the perception of the profession, while also identifying opportunities within the trust industry. https://open.spotify.com/episode/4qpkrVdaUa2AfDxgl7j3yN?si=XVgG3jE_Qpqq2JTqi8XLXQ Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com⁠) Takeaways The coming crisis in trusteeship is already here. There is a significant shortage of qualified trustees. Trusteeship requires strong interpersonal skills and emotional intelligence. Managing risk is a fundamental aspect of trusteeship. Trustees critically need education and training. The role of a trustee is evolving with increasing complexity. Beneficiaries need to understand their rights and the trustee’s role. Custodial responsibilities are essential for asset protection. There are many opportunities for growth in the trust industry. Trust law and investment management are distinct fields. This Episode is for . . . Anyone that has an estate plan with a trust in it and doesn't know what a trustee does Any advisor who works w/ multi-generational situations (that’s everybody in wealth management) Any RIA looking to sell Financial types worried about compliance world Fiduciary litigators Chapters of “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” 00:00 The Coming Crisis in Trusteeship 02:06 Importance of Modern Trust Planning 04:11 Challenges with Individual Trustees 08:03 The Dwindling Pool of Qualified Trustees 10:06 Functions and Responsibilities of a Trustee 12:20 The Emotional and Interpersonal Aspects of Trusteeship 16:05 Managing Risk in Trusteeship 19:07 Building a Pipeline for Future Trustees 22:10 The Role of Education in Trusteeship 25:07 Improving the Perception of Trusteeship 28:19 The Need for Better Trust Education 30:39 Bifurcation of Trustee Functions 33:26 Distribution Functions and Beneficiary Relations 36:52 Custodial Responsibilities in Trusteeship 40:19 Consequences of Poor Asset Management 46:41 Curriculum for Trustee Education 52:13 Opportunities in the Trust Industry Transcript of “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” Frazer Rice (00:01.068)Welcome aboard, Jennifer. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (00:02.723)Thanks Frazer, how are you today? Frazer Rice (00:04.782)I am doing great. We’re going to dive into a topic that is near and dear to both of our hearts. And that is what I’m describing as the coming crisis in trusteeship, but I think it’s already here. Which is the concept of qualified trustees being in short supply, right in the face of a gigantic wealth transfer. And first of all, before we get into that, just describe what you do on a day to day basis first. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (00:33.445)Sure, I actually wear a bunch of hats. Day to day, right now, I’m a full-time practicing trust and estate attorney. I’m also an individual trustee for a variety of trusts that need either somebody here physically located in Delaware for a short period of time or even a successor trustee. But I’ve also spent many, many years building programs in trust management and trust administration. Because there is this crisis of human capital that just does not exist. I built multiple programs. They’re housed out of the University of Delaware. So I act as a trust and estate attorney, do planning, administration, I teach in the area, I build programs in the area, and I serve as a trustee. PEAK TRUST MANAGEMENT CERTIFICATE Frazer Rice (01:23.182)A full plate to be sure. To me, I came out of Wilmington Trust and another trust company served an individual trustee too. I’ve seen all these different flavors of trusteeship. My general sort of bon mot around that is that the individual trustees. I’d say 95 % or higher don’t really have an appreciation of the risk and responsibility that they’re taking on. And then the corporates have their own issues, which we’ll get into in a little bit. If we pull back even further, modern trust planning in wealth management, why is this so important? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (02:06.275)That’s massively important. It’s not just for the mass affluent or the ultra high net worth. It’s for everybody. We have all of these assets that we have this hyperfocus on building and increasing our wealth. Making sure that we have the ability to sustain ourselves throughout our entire lives. But if we don’t do this type of planning, if we don’t have structures and implementation for when we die, then our assets that we’ve planned so diligently for will fall off of a cliff. We lose the ability to control ultimately what happens to those assets. Layered on top of that, of course, is the tax component for ultra high net worth folks who are trying to really focus and direct their assets to make and create generational wealth transfers. Without this type of functionality and wealth planning and estate planning long-term, people lose control of what they’ve spent so much time building. Frazer Rice (03:13.338)One of the things I tell people as far as trusts are concerned is that, you know, we’re putting these structures together. They’re durable enough to withstand taxation or creditors or other asset protection features, create some guidelines around distributing the assets to the next generation or other constituencies. But also have some flexibility to be able to deal with the things we can’t look into the crystal ball and figure out over time. And that those three things just putting a document together that tries to do all that is hard enough, but then to put it in the hands of somebody or something to administer and to exercise discretion around it. That’s where the real art and science kind of stitched together and create this issue. You know, as we think about that too, the idea, the history of these types of scenarios kind of goes back to, you know, you’d put a structure in place and then you’d go hire a bank and they’d take care of everything. How do you look at that and say, all right, we’ve gone well past banks to individuals and then to dedicated institutions. What is the problem there? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (04:22.956)Now the problem, there’s two problems. In my opinion, what I see is that, you know, your individual trustee by and large is Uncle Joe, right? He’s the guy that everybody goes to in the family. The responsible one. He’s the smart one. The wealthy one who, great, doesn’t know what the fiduciary duties are. He doesn’t know that he has a duty of impartiality. He doesn’t know that… Frazer Rice (04:32.419)Right. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (04:48.475)He can’t self deal unless the instrument says so. Doesn’t understand how the instrument works. He doesn’t understand the nuance and the legalese written into the instrument. But he’s flying by the seat of his pants and everybody looks to him as the respected one in the family. No one knows that they have the ability to challenge him. So with your individual run of the mill trustee named in the instrument, they just don’t have the expertise, they don’t have the technical knowledge. Don’t know what they don’t know. They can get into trouble in that way. The other problem that you have with professional individual trustees oftentimes is that they are not formally trained. They may be an attorney who is working in that area, who’s doing plans for people who may or may not know what the full scope of being a trustee is. They may not realize, I have to get a special insurance policy because my malpractice insurance policy doesn’t actually cover this type of fiduciary engagement. There’s a lot of landmines that individuals can run into when they’re doing this type of work. On the corporate side, the problems that we run into is that there’s just a complete and utter lack. Frazer Rice (05:50.061)Hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (06:12.059)Of available educational programs to teach people the proper way to be able to understand trusteeship. It has always been, and it just has developed over time through, you know, oh, we’ll give it to the bank, the bank will do it. This apprenticeship model, and that just does not scale well because if you learn improperly at the edge of a desk from somebody that learned improperly at the edge of the desk. Then the person that you’re teaching now at the edge of the desk is learning what you learned improperly. So anecdotally, I did karate for a long, long time. And the man who taught me karate, I’m almost a secondary black belt to like, was serious in karate. And the man who taught me karate said, you practice, it makes permanent. Don’t practice wrong. Because when you’re practicing wrong, you’re making permanent wrong things. And that’s what the apprenticeship model has the risk of lending itself to. It’s not that every trustee that learns at the edge of the desk learns wrong, but the risk is too high because the fiduciary responsibilities and the duties are too high to run that risk. The other problem is that we have a dwindling pool of really qualified senior trust officers because of just the nature of the job. You’re a human being, you’re an individual, you age, you retire. And it’s not something that people go to school and say, when I grow up, I want to be a trustee. They fall into it sideways. And unless there are academic programs that are out there that people are aware of and that they can get some formal training, some formal education to enter into the field. Frazer Rice (07:49.742)Yeah Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (08:03.82)Separate and distinct from, I’m in the field and now I want to get a CTFA. I want to earn my certification to really show that I have the chops in this area. We have this shrinking pool of expertise. We have a lack of knowledge, a lack of formal education, and an apprenticeship model that doesn’t scale. On top of, with the individual side and the corporate side, this massive wealth transfer and an explosion of trust complexity that’s all taking place at the same time. Frazer Rice (08:31.918)One of the issues at the corporate level too is that as you say that the impregnance model is not necessarily the best way to do it. They’re cutting back on training programs. The business model around being a trustee or even a specific trustee does not make the big money. And so the ability for those types of institutions to develop the people.who ultimately are now in a very sort of pro-employee environment where there’s such a demand for trustees that they can kind of switch around and get a 10 or 20 % bump each time they go because people are desperate to have them. There’s a real cavern there to try to create the permanence that you’re looking for in a structure that really rewards consistency over time, especially as it relates to discretion and process of decision-making. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (09:23.15)Yeah, that’s exactly right. And that leads to this revolving door in the industry, because people are just trying to make more money and they’re going and bouncing to different trust companies. And there isn’t that backfill. Just because it’s a trust company and there’s policies and procedures, trusteeship is about relationships that you make with your beneficiaries, the relationships that you develop with multiple generations in a family. And when you have somebody that’s acting and serving in that and they move, they leave, they’re no longer acting and serving in that capacity, a new personality comes into the mix and it can really be disruptive. So having that consistency and minimizing the attrition is so valuable. Frazer Rice (10:06.766)The other thing I try to bring up, especially to individual trustees, is that the thing that you’re signing up for is probably going to look a lot different in five or 10 or 15 years when people are aged on, they remarry, they have kids, etc. That the conditions are a lot different than what they were before. And it’s going to be difficult to take on a structure that has eight people when before there were two. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (10:37.517)Yes, and that’s that complexity, that increased sophistication and complexity of trust structures that are available now to people. With the increase in the exemption, these trust structures, they’re not necessarily changed. For example, qualified personal residence trust, if people really need that anymore, but there’s a ton of them sitting around there. Are trustees properly administering it? Did you actually transfer the real estate into the trust at the time? So there’s all kinds of sophisticated structures that the trustees may or may not have the right skills. But they’re saddled with having to do it. Frazer Rice (11:19.47)Let’s take a step back and just talk about the functions of a trustee for a second. I break them down basically into three. Which is the first one. You have to administer the trust, meaning you have to dot the I’s, cross the T’s, make sure things get executed, tax returns are filed, statements get sent out to the extent that that happens, and that the administration of a structure like that occurs. Then I talk about the concept that the investments have to be made monitored moved around decided and that they’re appropriate for all classes of beneficiary that are in there and then the distribution function which is The assets have to be distributed according to the law. First the trust then maybe the intent or the law if everything is silent and that those three things are very different components and that it’s tough to find somebody who’s great at all three housed within one brain. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (12:20.217)Yeah, I agree with that 100%. It is a three legged stool. It’s the investments, the administration and the distributions. And in that administration umbrella in and of itself, there’s a tremendous amount of work that sort of goes unsung. know, it’s not the sexy stuff where you’re investing and making a bunch of money for your income beneficiaries and managing to preserve the corpus for your principal or your remainder beneficiaries. And it’s certainly not the personal interaction that you’re doing with your beneficiary day to day. Making distributions, helping them, seeing the product of that help. It’s the making sure you file ax returns are properly. Understanding how to read that tax return. Even if you’re not preparing it, making a proper selection on the accountant that you’re using to prepare those tax returns if you’re not preparing it. Make sure to set up statements properly, make sure that in this world of silent trust documents that you’re not sending a statement to somebody who’s not supposed to have it. Communicating with beneficiaries on an even keel. Making sure that you’re not inadvertently violating your duty of impartiality because it’s more than just a substantive duty, there’s a procedural duty as well. That’s really, really challenging to find within one human being, let alone add on top of it somebody who’s financially savvy enough to understand investments and all of the different complex investment tools that are out there, as well as having the personality and the interpersonal skills to keep beneficiaries engaged and happy. Frazer Rice (13:56.426)Just on top of that, the EQ, the bedside manner, and the ability to simplify the complex, et cetera. At the same time, that dedicated note taker that is able to document everything that happens within a decision. Whether distribution or investment or otherwise, that it’s just two different people most times. I find that something falls apart as time goes on. Ultimately if things aren’t laid out correctly, that’s when conflict starts to simmer. Then you know if there is something that’s wrong. That’s allowed to compound that’s where you get into a huge problem later on. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (14:36.922)It’s all that feeling. People are behaving in ways that they may or may not be able to articulate their emotional proximity to. When you’re talking with beneficiaries. There’s something simmering under the surface that you inherited because you’re a trustee. You may not even be aware of it because the beneficiaries may not even be able to articulate it. You have to have a certain sense. A gut check of feelings of rntuitively being able to read what’s going on under the surface. To pull it out of people in a very balanced and even keel way. It’s not an easy job by any stretch of the imagination. On top of financial literacy and personal liability and executive functioning skills, being detail oriented, making sure your documentation is not overly explicit. isn’t, you know, scarce. You’re now wondering how and why did you make those decisions? People don’t think about the decisions that they make on a day to day basis. We don’t think in a way to articulate why I made this decision. Why I exercised this type of judgment. And that’s what we’re being asked to do as trustees is to document what is my decision making process? Why am I making the decision? What are my factors involved in making that decision in a way that’s defensible. If we ever need to defend it. Frazer Rice (16:05.292)Well, in favoring one class of people over another is usually where the rubber hits the road on this. People who are used to seeing the income from a trust and don’t want that touched come hell or high water. Then future beneficiaries who’d like to see the trust go from X to 2X to 5X. So that they have something larger to enjoy. You have a natural tension that you have to manage. It’s just not easy. If you don’t document the hows and whys of what you’re doing, you set yourself up for a problem. From one class or another looking at you saying, you you should have done it differently. To go back to that liability component. You’re the only one who sits in the chair of having made that decision. You’re the one with the bullseye on your back when it’s called to account. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (16:53.093)That’s right, that is exactly right. And now add on top of it, you’re just named because you’re Uncle Joe and everybody goes to Uncle Joe. You have no technical background and you just don’t know the landmines that are there. You don’t know what you don’t know. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we were able to create a pipeline of really sophisticated entry level employees or folks that are, you know sophisticated in financial literacy that now want to take the job to become trustees, that we were able to give them this technical roadmap for what the job actually is and then have them get the ability to apprentice on all of those policies and procedures. What does this corporation do? How do we document things? When you’re trying to learn it all at one time, it’s like drinking from a fire hose. Let’s give people the ability to really have a chance at doing it successfully. Frazer Rice (17:53.048)So let’s dive into that pipeline issue for a second. We already diagnosed that the, let’s call it the trust companies or the banks are, they’re just not resourced enough. They can’t run people through an internal school to do it quote unquote correctly. The apprentice model really kicks in. Which means you’re at the sort of mercy of what people are good at, not good at, et cetera. People turn over quickly so that apprenticeship doesn’t even work anymore. The RIAs I think are the worst place to learn about this type of thing. They have a completely different modus operandi as far as keeping clients happy. The word fiduciary means something so different to them than it does to an actual trustee. I wouldn’t feel good about the training on that front to sort of create trustees And then so law schools. They’re they’re just trying to create people the trust in the states vertical as a general matter. Let alone trying to delineate into a trustee situation. You’re putting the pipeline together and you put these programs together. How do you stitch together the needs and what does that manifest itself into? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (19:07.642)So that’s a really, really good question. I think that the very first place that we start with answering that question is advising on a trust as an attorney. It’s different from the administration of a trust and the skills that you need for that. So when you create a program like this where you’re trying to teach about trust management. You have to start with the technical skill. The legal side of what is it that we’re even doing? What is a trust? What are the fiduciary duties? Where do they come from? Then we have to, after we teach or create a structure or foundation on what the legality is. Now we go into how does this translate into administration? So when I created the programs, I looked at what’s the law they need to know? What is the level of sophistication of the student? And what do I need to, from a foundational perspective, teach first? What are the building blocks? And then how do I translate that into administration? The one thing that I have found is trust law does not equal investment management. So if people are coming along… Frazer Rice (20:26.254)No question. I’m nodding audibly at that comment. I like that. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (20:31.226)Your fiduciary duties as a trustee are fundamentally different than those of an RIA, where some RIAs are not even fiduciaries by law. They’re not. So being able to delineate and explain where that line is, what makes you a fiduciary, what are those duties, after you know the legal basics. And taught to you at a level that you can understand. I don’t expect everybody to be a lawyer. And people have asked me time and time again, do I need to be a lawyer to know this? No, you don’t need to be a lawyer because you’re not advising on the law. You’re advising on the administration of a legal structure and how that administration affects the fiduciary duties that are inherent in the relationship. Then how those fiduciary duties are translated out to the beneficiary. That’s the way that I’ve always built these programs. Where do I start? Start with the law. Where do I go from there? Start with how the administration translates the law. And then how does that administration get heard by the beneficiary? Where does the RIA come into the mix? The RIA should not be dabbling in advising on trusts. They should know that they need to bring in somebody who has this particular skill. And if they’re not doing that, they’re doing the client a disservice by trying to give one-stop shop advice. Frazer Rice (22:06.85)Yep, no question about it. One of the things that…we delve into the world of trusts and their function, et cetera, is that you’re dealing with an ecosystem from client to outside advisor, whether RIA or even accountant, et cetera, that they’re looking for certainty and airtight. quality to these structures that you put them in place and then everything runs like a clock going forward. When in actuality, I think there is a bandwidth of risk around everything. And so it’s the poor trust officer or individual trustee who sometimes has to be the bearer of bad news to say, yeah, you know, I think this is going to work 98 % of the time, but there’s a 2 % problem here or we’ve got this to fix or something like that and everybody else sort of sighs with disappointment and gets mad at the administrative function when in actuality they’re really doing their job and trying to, you know, keep a lot of things that are spinning out of control kind of within view. How do you get a trust officer or that administrative function or even the full trustee function to be comfortable with that risk and everything that’s involved with that? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (23:20.504)You have to start with explaining that there is risk and we’re not our job is not as a trustee to eliminate risk. Our job is to manage and identify risk. It is inherent in the job. There is going to be risk. No matter what you do, you cannot divorce risk from trusteeship. It’s a matter of identifying perceived risk and actual risk. And if you can teach that, if you can teach These are the things that are going to trigger a likely outcome. They’re gonna trigger a likely risk. Then you can essentially, you can’t foresee everything. I mean, there are things that are just gonna happen. But in a trust instrument, you’ve got contingency plan upon contingency plan upon contingency plan. That’s what the flexibility of those structures are building. We need to, as trustees, be able to recognize What is the risk with contingency plan A? The risk with B? What is the risk with C? How can we minimize the risk? And how can we make sure that we’re managing perception of risk versus actual risk? Frazer Rice (24:29.31)as someone who’s been in trust companies, advised trust companies, advised trustees, and advised clients, the lack of appreciation for the management of that risk and that that as the intersection of the business model of trusteeship and risk management and use of discretion and making hard decisions and even kind of an insurance quality around these structures, how do you fix that, where people place a level of respect on the job that I think is completely lacking in the wealth management ecosystem? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (25:09.089)Absolutely. It’s a tough one to answer. How do you fix it? First and foremost, I think that it’s a top-down fix, especially at a corporate trust company, a bank, and even an independent trust company that’s not affiliated with a bank. The management has to… really understand the function of the trust company. For so long, it’s been just an extra service that we provide and and we’ll do this, the back office trust company. It’s really, really important that the management recognizes what the functionality of the trust company is and stops treating it as sort of a back office stepchild. From the corporate level, I think that’s the very first place we start. Frazer Rice (25:38.478)Mm-hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (25:57.818)The second place we start is investing in our trust officers, investing in the team, giving them the education that they need, continuing to give them education, providing training programs, whether they be in-house, external, bring in trainers. None of this is set it and forget it. At the individual level, I think it’s really, really important to have functions like the Individual Trustee Alliance, groups like that, where you have an ability to talk to other professionals that are doing what you’re doing. That’s another way to impress upon people that we have to manage the risk and we can’t do it all alone. Nobody knows everything. You really have to, you have to talk to other people. You have to engage. have to, what is it called when we were practicing law and we’re a little bit outside of our comfort zone, we have to consult with other people who know more than we do. It’s our obligation as lawyers. It’s the same thing with a trust company, with a trustee, whether you’re an individual or you’re not. Widen that circle. Frazer Rice (27:08.474)I think this is my idea for the day that there’s got to be a bit of a public relations campaign sort of describing what’s going on here because I think especially when we go into the family members that sort of occupy these roles, they have no earthly idea what they’re doing. They’re usually doing it for free. Everything’s hunky dory up until a point and everyone hopes that everyone is not going to sue each other if something goes wrong. But the level of wealth that’s being transferred now is now so significant that everyone sort of talks about, AI is going to get rid of lawyers. Nope, not in fiduciary litigation. I think that’s a medium term growth industry, especially around insurance, around ILITs, around revocable trusts, around elder care. But this is my advertisement for people who are in law school looking for a productive way to go. I think that one is going to be, I think that one’s recession proof, at least for a while until I retire anyway. So my thought is that awareness over these things, and it’s probably going to take a very difficult case or a class action suit, something like that, where somebody really gets hurt in order for that awareness to come up. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (28:24.922)Yeah, I would agree. think that some of the solutions would include better trust education, you know, whether it be for RIAs, lawyers. Trust in the states is a throwaway class in law school. And there are so many law schools that are essentially rolling it back because bar exams aren’t testing it anymore in a variety of states. And ACTEC is definitely working with the law schools to try and increase trust in the states being taught and certainly being tested. So education for lawyers coming out of law school, education for RIAs that are advising on trusts, education for trust officers, for trust administrators, trust professionals in general, clear role delineation. What is the role of the RIA? The role of the trust officer? What is the role of the trustee if they’re an individual trustee? And then creating a culture of collaboration on what we’re doing as a team for the beneficiary, not substitution, but collaboration with the advisors and the trustees. Frazer Rice (29:32.59)Let’s go into the role delineation for a second. About 20 or 30 years ago, the concept of bifurcating or sort of cordoning off the different functions I described before the investment, the administration and the distribution has come into vogue. I think that came out of frustration with bank trust companies where you got one set of advice for every trust that they had as far as investments and distributions and administration and a lot of modern larger families wanted something a little bit more specific to their needs. And that’s really turned, it’s exploded as an industry for increasing sophistication and size of wealth. Along those different functions, where maybe the administration goes to a professional trust company or a trust officer in the state that you want, Then there’s some intersection maybe in the distribution committee. And then the investment side of it is a bit of a free for all, think, depending on what you’re, dealing with. How do you educate the, that continued the delineation, but the coordination within those types of structures. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (30:41.275)Yeah, I think it’s really important. And I’m a Delaware lawyer. I’m licensed in multiple states, but Delaware is my home. It’s where I learned how to be a lawyer. It’s where I grew up as a lawyer. So this directed trust model that you’re describing, where you’re bifurcating, truly bifurcating these particular functionalities of a trustee, it originated in Delaware. sort of, we didn’t, I mean, we invented it, right? We codified it. It was being done, but we codified it. The idea of making sure that everybody understands what their function is and knowing that there’s a limit of liability that’s built into the instrument and communicating what that means to the RIA that is named in the document. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard companies, heard trust companies say, we’re advisor friendly. And I’m like, not unless you’re directed, you’re not. Frazer Rice (31:37.528) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”Yeah. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (31:40.439)If you are directed, you are 100 % advisor friendly because there’s no chance that that trustee is going to try and take the investment management. They’re not a portfolio manager. Not a clerical administrator. They’re not a passive rule follower. We need to identify what does that trustee actually do when they are an administrative or directed trustee. Clarify that role so that people who are engaged in this bifurcation, this structure where we’ve got a distribution committee, maybe it’s individuals who are close to the family, close to the beneficiaries, where you don’t have somebody who’s objectively uninvolved with the family members making decisions as to whether or not there’s a distribution that should be made. But also advising those rolls those advisors that your administrative trustee is not just a pencil put a paper pusher. Not just checking boxes. They really do add value to the role that they provide and making sure that everybody understands what each other are doing, having regular meetings amongst the team instead of operating in a vacuum or operating in a silo. And taking the approach of it’s not my job, misunderstanding trustee powers and the advisor’s authority. So when that’s delineated, when that’s really understood, not just by the advisors, but also by the beneficiaries, there are so many beneficiaries out there, Frazer, that have absolutely no idea that they actually hold all the cards. They don’t know. Frazer Rice (33:25.87)Along that line, so in the administrative, we just walked through pretty nicely. The distribution function is one that, let’s talk a little bit for a second about what it means to ask a trustee for a distribution and maybe the difference between income and principal and why having a steady hand at the wheel within that function, whether it’s a corporate trust company of qualified individual or family input in that function, why real good thought needs to go into how that’s staffed. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (34:04.73)Yeah, absolutely. 100%. In a corporate trustee ship or a corporate trust company structure, there’s always going to be distribution committees, right? So if you are the trustee, you’re going to have to go through a committee that’s looking at what your reasoning is for making that distribution. They’re asking questions about what have been the prior distributions? Have they come from principal? Have they come from income? What is the spend rate on that trust? How is this going to affect long-term spend rate? Is this an aberration? Is this something that’s gonna become a habit? Really understanding what the distribution, the guidelines are in the trust. What is the distribution standard? Making that decision? What are our factors? And how many people are at the table? Who’s communicating that to the beneficiary? Does the beneficiary know that the trust officer alone does not have the ability to say yes or no? That when they’re in this ecosystem of a corporate trust company, they have their checks and balances to make sure that that risk is being managed. So when you’re looking at corporate trust companies, are a lot of layers behind understanding what the distribution standard is, whether it’s hems or if it’s purely discretionary. The other thing that you need to look at when it’s not a corporate trustee and it’s an individual trustee is, how is that individual trustee making that decision? Are they doing it in a vacuum? Alone? Are they favoring one beneficiary over another because they like them more, you need to have some communication to the beneficiaries so that they understand what they are, what their interest is, what they are entitled to, if anything, and why the trustee stands in that position as the gatekeeper. And I really think in my heart of hearts, we need to make a shift from a gatekeeper trustee Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (36:16.708)to a beneficiary enhancement trustee, where the beneficiary is really taking on the understanding that the trustee is there to facilitate enhancing the beneficiary’s life. That even though the trust may have started at the outset as a tax strategy or something that the grantor decided they needed to do with the advice of counsel. At the end of the day, you wouldn’t have been named as the beneficiary if there wasn’t some sense of love or obligation even, that it’s for your benefit. It’s in the name. Beneficiary. Trustees need to understand that and beneficiaries need to be taught. Frazer Rice (36:54.958)Right. Frazer Rice (37:00.646)And it goes to the circle back to the notion of making sure that you write down the whys of the decision because ultimately if the concepts of favoritism or you didn’t communicate this or anything, the idea of having the beneficiary submit a budget but having them understand why they are submitting a budget and then if there is some discretion that’s happening around that decision that the data points that are informing that discretion, that’s gonna keep everybody safe a lot later on. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (37:32.666)Absolutely. I break it down into a couple of different factors. It’s fiduciary decision making. How is that fiduciary making the decisions they’re making? Why are they making those decisions? And who is being affected by the decisions? Document interpretation. Do you understand the document that you’re administering? If you don’t understand the document you’re administering, hopefully best case scenario, you know what you don’t know and you ask. But if you don’t understand the document and you don’t even have the wherewithal to say, hey, I need help to understand the document, it’s really problematic. The third part, balancing beneficiary interests. Really taking on board this idea of the principal income problem that all the assets in the trust are not the same. That some of it doesn’t at all in any way affect a certain class of beneficiaries. And at the same time, it’s inextricably intertwined in the way that it affects another class of beneficiaries. And then risk management and governance. How is this being governed? How are we managing perceived and actual risk as a trustee? Frazer Rice (38:40.13)The investment function, which I alluded to before, I see storm clouds on that horizon, not really at the RIA level, because I think there’s sort of a default mode that investment policy statements are in place. Diversification is a true commodity at this point. And I never really worry about an RIA sort of understanding how to invest to get to a certain expected return and deal with the risks and drawdown and all that stuff. The storm cloud I see is when individuals sit in that role and they are being tasked with, let’s call it quote unquote, overseeing concentration, meaning that trust is holding a building, farmland, a nuclear reactor, crypto, all of these different things that sometimes can be, A, they have their own different maintenance responsibilities that are not just looking at a fidelity statement, but that they also have their own volatility And, you know, in the case of a building, you got to make sure it’s managed correctly. are they going to get sued or the windows kept up, all of that stuff, and that there’s a whole different component there. And I’m waiting for the shoe to drop on some fact pattern there where somebody is sitting in the role of an investment advisor. It doesn’t say trustee in the document, so they don’t really think that they have trustee liability. But. they sit in that role and all of a sudden somebody finds 10 55 gallon drums of green fluid in the basement of a building and all of a sudden the trust has a big set of red brackets that say minus $100 million that you owe to the federal government and the EPA. How do you think about that? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:21.454)Hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:25.242)That’s a heavy question. so the Delaware stock answer, obviously, direct it, right? It’s just to get the trust, cut off the liability. At the first, at the inception of your hypothetical is bad drafting, right? So if there’s no statement as to whether or not your investment advisor is acting as a fiduciary or not, Frazer Rice (40:35.042)Right. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:52.836)What does your statute say? Does your statute impose that they are as a default a fiduciary or not? So that’s the very first step. That’s bad drafting. We need to know. But if it’s silent, let’s say it’s just a lousy document, there’s, God knows. Anybody who’s seen trust documents knows that, you’ve seen them all, right? And everything in between. Some are good, some are bad. If this is a bad one. Frazer Rice (41:13.08)Seen good and you’ve seen bad. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (41:20.079)Then we need to document the statute. If we can correct it, modify the document, let’s modify it. But if all of that can’t happen, then I would say the best way to handle it, make sure you have adequate insurance. mean, over-insure that, over-insure it. Make sure that there’s regular checks on the actual… Assets that are in the trust, if you have a concentration and that concentration is real estate, get the advice of counsel, put that bad boy into an LLC, get yourself some distance from the actual asset itself being held in the trust, hold an interest, hold a financial interest, push it down to the corporate level. But if you can’t do all of that and you’ve got those 500 gallon drums of green fluid and now you’re… Frazer Rice (42:14.286)You Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (42:15.371)You you’ve got a super fun site. What do you do? You don’t shy away from it. Have to address it head on. You got to take the accountability. You got to communicate and document, communicate and document some more. Talk to your beneficiaries. Make sure that they’re aware of where it went wrong, why it went wrong. Because I have found in my exposure in the industry over time and in reading case law, it’s when you’re trying to cover stuff up. Frazer Rice (42:43.913)Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (42:44.027)You’re just making more problems. Bad news doesn’t age well. It doesn’t get better over time. You have to approach it head on and make sure that there’s communication and documentation. Meet with your beneficiaries. If there’s a trusteeship where you are appointed as a trustee individually and you’re not having at least quarterly meetings with your beneficiaries, If you’re not going out and seeing the asset, if you’re not going out and making sure that the asset is properly custodyed, you’re not, you’re violating your fiduciary duty. You are not doing what you’re supposed to do. Frazer Rice (43:21.804)You brought up an interesting word there, custody, which is the administrative function, whether held corporately or individually, one of the major things you have to do is to safeguard the assets. And that’s a big two syllable word that carries a lot of weight with it. That custodial function, how do you teach the trust officers or the individual trustees where that starts and stops? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (43:48.579)Yeah, mean, custody is super, it’s a really touchy, touchy subject, especially with the dynamic way that trusts have developed in the current climate from tangibles. You know, I’ve got artwork and my beneficiary wants to hang the artwork in their house. Well, do you have custody? Has it been assigned to the trustee and how do you maintain that asset? Make sure nothing’s happening to it. Do make an appointment, go over to the, visit your artwork? What if it’s prize horses, you know? What if it’s, you know, a stud that, you know, we’re gonna need to breed and it’s gonna be the next Triple Crown winner? How do you make sure that the barn is properly safeguarded? It’s a really touchy subject, especially with things like tangibles and things like assets held away when you technically custody the asset, but you don’t have control over the asset. I think in the education part for custodying, what I do in my programs and when I teach this is I make sure that we talk about different types of asset classes. And what the risks, again, what are the risks that you run with these asset classes? How can we manage the actual and the perceived risk of holding that asset? Even if you have custody and name only, but you don’t have physical custody, how do you maintain your control over that asset? Because it’s really the C’s, right? The custody and control. Just because you don’t have custody doesn’t mean you don’t have control. So we have to make sure that there’s an education that’s provided about the different asset classes, whether it’s tangibles, intangibles, assets held away, if it’s a concentration of stock, if it’s crypto, and most trust companies are not taking crypto. I think that there’s like a circuitous way that they’re getting in right now, but it all boils down to education, isolating what the issue is and educating people on it. Frazer Rice (45:59.586)I’ll give you a third C, it’s consequences, which is what happens when you don’t understand these functions. on the crypto side of things, Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (46:01.786)Uhhh Frazer Rice (46:11.544)Holds the key to get to the crypto. What happens if that trust officer quits and walks away with the key and they’re like, well, multi-sigil figure this out. I’m like, okay, that’s not that. That doesn’t make me feel great at the moment. And now there have been some advances, which is good, but traps for the unwary to be sure. the good news too for crypto is for people who want exposure, the spot ETFs take away 90 % of the problems with that. But as we start to think about winding down here, because I have a feeling we could probably talk for four or five hours on this subject, when putting your programs together, what does a curriculum look like? And we don’t have to go through it bit by bit, but how does that work when someone comes to your program? How much time does it take? What’s the commitment? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (46:47.172)Yeah, I think so. Frazer Rice (46:54.851)Mm-hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (47:06.33)So the program that I created that’s really available anywhere across the country is called the Peak Trust Management Certificate Program. Peak Trust Company, may be familiar with it. They have name rights because they gave the donation to the University of Delaware for me to build the program. So it’s housed at the Lerner College at the University of Delaware, but bears the name of Peak Trust Company. I look at five different things. The first thing is trust law and administration. So like I said previously when we were talking, you lay that foundation of what is the legal component of this? What is the baseline that people have to know? And then what is the administration? The second component is, and it’s inextricably intertwined as taxation. What is the income tax? What are the deductions? And now let’s take all of that income tax knowledge, individual income tax knowledge, and build on it with fiduciary income tax. What is DNI? What is FAI? How does it go out to the beneficiary? What’s the character of the distribution? How do we manage that? What are we deducting in the trust? So teaching taxation and not because trustees necessarily are tax preparers, but because the trustees obligation is to be able to understand and read that tax return, they need to know how to spot problems. So from my perspective, teaching fiduciary income tax is a critical component. It also helps. Yeah. Frazer Rice (48:38.828)No, no, I was gonna say no question about that. And there are elections to make, just because it doesn’t just go on autopilot, there are choices to be made so that if you’re the trustee, you may not have to prepare the tax return, but you may have to make a choice on the tax return and you’ve got to be informed because that can be an issue. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (48:58.651)65 day elections, perfect example, right? You just, you need to understand what your role is and how it overlaps with that of the CPA. The third part, of course, investments. Investments are inextricably intertwined, whether you’re doing it yourself as the trustee or you’re directed or even delegated, which is like the hairy scaries of every trusteeship known to man, because you’re not actually in control, but you’re responsible. So it’s the gray. When I build a program, because of the, you know, the directed trusteeship being so popular in today’s day and age, we have to talk about not just investments of, you know, marketable securities, not just the custody of tangibles, but also subscription documents, because so many alternatives are held in trust right now. unique assets, need to know how the trustee is actually carrying out their fiduciary duty when it comes to engaging in an investment that is an alternative investment. The fourth component is of course compliance. We cannot ever get away from compliance and I think we could do a whole nother podcast on compliance in trusteeship but. You know, it’s a regulated entity. And even if you’re an individual trustee and you’re not using what those compliance frameworks are, what the guidelines are by OCC, Reg 9, FDIC, if you’re not looking at that and using that as a guideline, don’t do the job. understanding KYC, BSA, AML, all of those compliance components that have tentacles. That’s the fourth part. And then for the fifth part of this program, because it’s specifically geared toward trustee education in trust companies, although it can be applicable, very applicable to individuals, is operations. I was very fortunate that I was able to partner with SCI on building the operations component. So we license their platform called Plato. It’s essentially their training platform. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (51:12.888)so that trustees can see how fees are set up, fees, that’s a whole other podcast, fees, statements, distributions, how are we doing this? How are we documenting everything? What are the logistics of the day-to-day operations? So that’s how I built the program and it’s available anywhere in the country. It’s 10 weeks, how long does it take? I would say from three to five hours a week of an investment that you’re making at a bare minimum. Obviously there’s a whole lot more of depth that you can go into. The resources are built in. But I would say 10 weeks, about 50 hours of time where you’re actually engaging with the material. And then I bring in guest lecturers on each different area of expertise for lack of a better description. And they get a certificate at the end, they get a digital badge, and now they really have something where they can add value day one in a trust company or as a trustee. Frazer Rice (52:17.902)With Delaware being, you one of the real gold standards as far as trust jurisdiction, I assume that everything that comes out of this program is pretty transportable to the other useful jurisdictions, let’s call it, within the country. know, the Tennessee’s, the South Dakota’s, the Nevada’s, the Alaska’s, Wyoming’s, New Hampshire’s, et cetera. Obviously, there are hairs to split with different foibles in their law, but everything that you’re describing sounds like works everywhere else. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (52:47.928)And I’ve always taken the approach, you’re 100 % correct, I’ve always taken the approach of UTC. I base everything off of UTC and if there’s something different or unique based upon the jurisdiction that you’re in, I always encourage people you have to look at your statute, you have to look at the jurisdiction that you’re actually practicing this in and administering in. I use Delaware, South Dakota, Alaska as examples quite often when we’re talking about the directed stuff, but By and large, it’s UTC. Frazer Rice (53:20.966)It just a weird subset. So special needs trusts and islets, which are two types of trusts, very specific. One holds life insurance. The other is designed to really take care of people who can’t take care of themselves. And they are types of trusts that a lot of trust companies don’t like to take on because the liability is harder or the profit margin is less. For those individuals who get the opportunity to participate in those and I put that in air quotes. How would you advise people to get ready for those types of situations? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (53:58.308)People who are in need of those types of trusts. Frazer Rice (54:02.122)Well, maybe both. The people who need those trusts, you know, they’re going to, they, you know, it’s almost like they get set up and then the staffing gets kind of figured out later, barely. And then, you know, the, for the people who end up taking on that role, they really have no idea of what they’re in for in a sense. Is there sort of like a mini, I’m not going to say a full course like you’re describing, but a crash course in, in what’s going on here and what can I do to keep myself safe? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (54:30.271)Unfortunately, no, I don’t know of one. and there isn’t much built in. there’s, we talk about a little bit in the program that I built, but, those are specialized and eyelets we talk about a little bit more there, you eyelets had their day and sort of they has done ish. but special needs trust. It’s a whole other ball game because It really incorporates state law and social security and Medicaid, all of those government benefits that I think you would need something more specialized than my program that I developed. And I don’t have a great answer for that, I’m sorry. Frazer Rice (55:12.482)No, there’s not a great answer for it because it’s tough. it’s a, all of which is to say for someone who’s involved with those things and feels confused by what’s going on, that’s one where it’s worth it to spend the money to lean on a dedicated Medicaid elder care, special needs type of lawyer on that front because there are traps for the unwary. Okay, now we’re starting to butt up against an hour here of. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (55:29.764)Yes . . . Frazer Rice (55:38.827)Four hours. No, I’m kidding listeners. We’re not going to talk for four hours, but How do people find your program and and then I’ll ask a bonus question at the end Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (55:49.339)So the program is on the University of Delaware’s website. You just type in peak trust management certificate and it’ll pop up. My name will be there. I think my picture might be there. It’s all over my LinkedIn. So if you look me up, you’re going to see the peak trust management certificate program. You can always email me, jennifer at zeldenlaw.com. Happy to push people into it. start, I’m in the new cohort right now. We’re two weeks into a 10 week program. But we have a new cohort starting in May. I think it’s May 4th. So may the fourth be with you. Frazer Rice (56:24.622)Terrific. So the final question here is really more of a crystal ball question. In this trust industry, trustee industry, what are the real, I’m going to say opportunities out there, and we’ve sort of painted a picture of doom and gloom and its low profit margin and things like that. Where can someone who is thinking from a business perspective about this find something? Once they’re properly educated about it and being able to participate in it. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (56:57.582)There are so many opportunities. There is an absolute need for good trustees everywhere. Trust companies from coast to coast, individual trustee alliance. People really, really need trustees. There’s tremendous opportunity with Heritage Institute, not the Heritage Foundation, but the Heritage Institute. There’s opportunities with…various family offices and various trust companies for education, for beneficiary education. So many opportunities out there. Trust companies are just clamoring for people. So if people are interested in becoming a trustee, getting that education, you will not have a hard time finding a job. Like you said, it’s basically recession proof. This wealth is going to transfer. We need sophisticated, knowledgeable trustees. on the receiving end of that transfer so that it happens correctly. Frazer Rice (57:56.578)I’d go so far as to say financial advisors. I just gotta say, a CFP is useful, CFA is on your investment side, but something like this, you know so much more about how intergenerational wealth works than what’s happening in those particular situations that I think it helps people stand out when I see something like that on a resume. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (58:00.302) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”That’s all the podcast. I hear you. I hear you. Frazer Rice (58:24.386) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”All right, with that, Jennifer, it’s great to catch up and I will have all of your information on the show notes and I will either see you at the ITA conference in Dallas or what I’m down in Delaware next. More Around “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” BUILDING A TRUST COMPANY TENNESSEE AS A JURISDICTION DIRECTED TRUSTEES DELAWARE WELL BEING TRUST THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/ Keywords for THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges trusteeship, wealth transfer, trust management, fiduciary duties, trust education, estate planning, risk management, trust administration, individual trustees, trust companies, the trustee crisis, navigating the challenges, the great wealth transfer,

Return to Work After Stroke: How Marco Calabi Rebuilt His Career, His Purpose, and His Life At 47 years old, Marco Calabi was a DevOps engineer living in Italy – someone who spent his days automating systems, solving complex problems, and helping companies stop wasting time on repetitive tasks. He was healthy, working, paying bills, and spending time with friends. Life was normal. Then, without warning, everything changed. A small hole between the two chambers of Marco’s heart, a condition known as Patent Foramen Ovale, or PFO, had allowed blood flows to mix. A clot formed. It travelled to his brain. By the time his partner and sister realised something was terribly wrong, Marco was moving his arm involuntarily, unaware of what was happening to his own body. The emergency services were called twice. The second time, they came. Marco underwent eight hours of brain surgery. He was placed in a medically induced coma to allow his brain to rest. When he finally opened his eyes, he was on a hospital bed, and the road back had only just begun. The Reality of Stroke at 47 Marco woke from surgery to find the right side of his body had been affected. His arm, hand, and leg were weak. His speech was impaired. He left the hospital in a wheelchair. For many stroke survivors, this is the moment that defines everything that follows, not the stroke itself, but the first honest look at what recovery is actually going to require. “In the beginning, I was helped in everything,” Marco recalls. “They prepared my lunch. They helped me go to the bathroom. My family never left me alone.” His mother, his partner, his sister, and a close friend in the Netherlands all rallied around him. At home, physiotherapists and local health professionals visited him directly, a level of care he describes as incredible. Step by step, he began to reclaim his independence. First, the bathroom. Then the kitchen. Then the stairs. Each small act of autonomy arrived with a feeling he hadn’t expected: power. “You feel good because you think you have power again,” he says. “It is a very important moment.” Return to Work After Stroke: Why It Matters For working-age stroke survivors, the question of whether they can return to work after stroke is one of the most pressing they face. Identity, purpose, financial security, and routine work carry all of these things, and a stroke threatens all of them at once. For Marco, returning to work wasn’t just a financial necessity. It was evidence that his life still had forward momentum. He went back to his role as a DevOps and Site Reliability Engineer, initially working six hours a day instead of eight. The work itself, automating processes and improving systems, remained the same. Only the pace had changed. “I do the same things, but with different speeds,” he says simply. That shift in pace is something many stroke survivors recognise. Recovery doesn’t demand perfection. It demands persistence. “The right moment is now. Not after, not tomorrow, not next week. Now.” — Marco Calabi Recovery Happens in Steps One of the most grounded things Marco shares is this: recovery cannot be rushed. “The experience is made of steps,” he says. “You must live every step. The first steps are physical. And then your mind changes. But you must let yourself be.” This is the part that rarely gets talked about openly. The pressure to recover quickly — to prove to yourself, your family, and your employer that you are still capable — can work against the very process you are trying to complete. Marco’s advice is to resist the urge to skip ahead. Physical recovery comes first. Mental and emotional transformation follows naturally from there. Trying to rush past the physical phase doesn’t speed up recovery. It disrupts it. The Book, the Purpose, and the Shift Deep into his recovery, Marco did something unexpected. He wrote a book. Cambio di Vita, translated into English as Life Change: To Hell and Back, is his account of what happened, what he felt, and what he learned. Available on Amazon in digital and paperback. Writing started as a personal exercise. Somewhere in the process, its purpose shifted. “I said, my story is useless in this moment. I can make something,” Marco explains. “And so the book has another meaning to share.” For a man who had always found purpose through his career, the stroke opened an unexpected door. Helping others became a new calling. Speaking engagements, podcasts, and community conversations, Marco has built a new layer of meaning onto the life he already had. His best friend told him he had become wiser. His own reflection on what changed is striking: “Heartlessness is useless. You reach the hearts of people with softness.” What Stroke Taught Him About Life Perhaps the most powerful thing about Marco’s story is not what he lost, but what he found. He found that the right moment is always now, not when conditions are perfect, not when recovery is complete, but right now, with whatever capacity you currently have. He found that family and friends matter more than most of us acknowledge until we truly need them. He found that purpose doesn’t require a perfect body or a full working week. It requires a decision. If you are navigating life after stroke, wondering whether you can return to work, rebuild your identity, or find meaning in what remains, Marco’s story is proof that it is possible. Not easy. Not fast. But absolutely possible. If you are rebuilding your life after stroke and want a guide for the journey ahead, Bill’s book The Unexpected Way That a Brain Injury Can Change Your Life is waiting for you at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. If this podcast has supported you, consider supporting it back at Patreon. Your contribution keeps this community growing. FAQ: Return to Work After Stroke Can you return to work after a stroke? Yes, many stroke survivors do return to work, though the timeline and capacity vary depending on the severity of the stroke, the type of work, and individual recovery. Marco Calabi returned to his role as a DevOps engineer, initially working six hours a day instead of eight. The key is a gradual, supported transition. How long does it take to return to work after a stroke? Recovery timelines vary widely. Some survivors return within weeks; others need months or years. Factors include the type and severity of stroke, the physical and cognitive demands of the job, and the quality of rehabilitation support. There is no universal timeline. Patience and persistence matter more than speed. What can I expect when returning to work after a stroke? Many survivors return at reduced hours or modified duties. Adjustments to pace, task complexity, or physical demands are common. Open communication with employers and occupational therapists can help structure a gradual, sustainable return. Marco worked six-hour days and describes it simply: “I do the same things, but with different speeds.” Does returning to work help stroke recovery? For many survivors, returning to work contributes positively to recovery, providing routine, purpose, social connection, and a sense of forward momentum. Marco Calabi describes his return to work as evidence that life still had forward momentum. However, the timing must be right, and the transition should be gradual. What if I can’t return to my previous job after a stroke? Some survivors find that stroke opens doors to new kinds of purpose volunteering, writing, advocacy, or a different career direction. Marco Calabi used his recovery to write a book and speak to others about life after stroke. The key is finding what gives you meaning, even if it looks different from before. For more guidance on rebuilding life after stroke, visit recoveryafterstroke.com/book. This blog is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your doctor before making any changes to your health or recovery plan. Marco Calabi — From Induced Coma to Back at Work: A Stroke Survivor's Honest Recovery Story At 47, Marco Calabi had a stroke caused by a hole in his heart. Today he's back at work, has written a book, and is helping others go on. Marco’s Facebook Marco’s Instagram Marco’s Book: Life Change Highlights: 00:00 Introduction: Return to Work After Stroke 02:27 Life Before and After the Stroke 05:23 Health Awareness and Stroke Causes 09:22 The Day of the Stroke 15:02 Writing the book “Life Change: To Hell and Back” 27:51 The Importance of Support During Recovery 33:15 Gaining Autonomy and Finding Purpose 39:14 The Power of Mindset in Recovery 43:24 Life Lessons Learned Post-Stroke 47:24 Inspiring Others Through Personal Experience Transcript: Introduction: Return to Work After Stroke Bill Gasiamis (00:00) what kind of things is okay to complain about? Like in Italy, if the pasta is not cooked al dente, you must complain. Marco Calabi (00:07) Okay, yeah. Okay, yes, yes. Bill Gasiamis (00:08) you Marco Calabi (00:13) Okay, but you complain, you learn to complain about very important things. Bill Gasiamis (00:24) Hello everyone and welcome to the recovery after stroke podcast. Before we get into today’s episode, I want to tell you about a tool I’ve been using and genuinely love turn to.ai. If you’ve ever tried to keep up with the latest stroke research, you’ll know how overwhelming it can be. There are literally 800 new things published every single week about stroke research papers, patient discussions, expert comments, clinical trials, events. Nobody has time to read all of that. Turn2.ai is an AI health sidekick that does it for you. It searches everything published in the past week and sends you what’s most relevant to your situation personalized every week straight to you. It’s my favorite new tool for 2026. It’s just $2 a week, patient first, low cost. And here’s what I love about this. When you sign up through my link, you’re supporting this podcast at absolutely no extra cost to you. Use code Bill10 for 10 % off and try it free at the link below or scan the QR code on your screen. Speaking of resources, if you’re rebuilding your life after stroke and want a roadmap for what comes next, my book, The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing to Happen is available at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. It’s written from experience, my own and other stroke survivors. And I hope it helps you the way writing it helped me. And to everyone supporting the show Patreon, thank you genuinely. This is not possible without you. Now today’s guest is Marco Calabi, a DevOps engineer from Italy who had a stroke at 47 caused by a hole in his heart. He went through eight hours of brain surgery, wake up from a medically induced coma, left hospital in a wheelchair and went on to return to work, write a book, and find a new sense of purpose. This is a remarkable conversation. Let’s get into it. Bill Gasiamis (02:18) Marco Calabi welcome to the podcast Marco Calabi (02:21) Yes, I’m ready and thank you for your invitation. Life Before and After the Stroke Bill Gasiamis (02:27) Tell me a little bit about what your life was like before you had the stroke. Marco Calabi (02:33) Yes, before my stroke, my life was normal, I say. Working, paying bills, going outside with friends and so on. After the stroke, everything changed because… Bill Gasiamis (02:53) Yeah. Did you have a, what kind of work did you do before the stroke? Marco Calabi (02:58) Before the stroke, even after the stroke, I work ⁓ in computer science field. I’m a DevOps engineer. And after the stroke, I work a little less. Six hours, I can do eight hours before the stroke. But I do the same things. I do normal things. project something about I’m very, very, very vertical in this moment. I work in a site, the reliability engineer field. my aim is to help this system to service. to automate things. And I’m like a robot. I like a robot. Bill Gasiamis (04:05) to automate. To automate things. So, okay, to automate manual processes or something like that. Marco Calabi (04:10) ⁓ so pretty. Yes, yes, I try to automate everything because the people, the company now try to avoid to make the people to repeating things. because you want people… make more important things and the repeating things are not very important. in my opinion, diminishing view of the work. And I try to make the things better in some way. before the soak and even after the soak. I do the same things but with different speeds. Health Awareness and Stroke Causes Bill Gasiamis (05:23) Yeah. With you regards to your health, how did you view your health before the stroke? Did you think you were healthy? Did you think you were well, or was there some things that you were dealing with that were related to the stroke that occurred? Marco Calabi (05:38) Yes, before the stroke I was healthy, but I was very worried about my health because I found a lot of health problems in my body, but the problems were not there. because after the stroke, I did understand I was healthy in that moment. And the stroke teached me to understand my health better. yes, yes, yes. Bill Gasiamis (06:30) You were heavy? Marco Calabi (06:37) because I went out from the hospital with wheelchair. And now I’m able to walk. Bill Gasiamis (06:51) Aha. So were you overweight? Marco Calabi (06:56) No, no, I’m not. I had a stroke maybe because the doctors doesn’t know the motive. Perhaps, perhaps it was a genetic problem in my heart because of FOP, because a small all between the two chambers in my heart. And the mixing of the two flow bloods makes problems to the brain. And after the stroke, ⁓ the stroke happened. But I… Bill Gasiamis (07:51) Yeah, did they? Did they find a hole in your heart? Marco Calabi (07:55) Yes, yes, and I was operated in my heart. Closing, yes, closing the hole because people suffer this common problem. But sometimes the problem is huge. A lot of people… Bill Gasiamis (08:01) to fix the hull. ⁓ huh. Hmm. Marco Calabi (08:25) don’t suffer major problems. But sometimes it is very, very important. In my case, was very, very important because it created the mixing of the blood flows, created ⁓ a blood costrain. to the brain and the platypus brain ⁓ created a stroke. It is the opinion of the doctors. Bill Gasiamis (09:04) on the How old were you at the time? Marco Calabi (09:10) I softened the stroke at 47 and now I’m 51 years old. Yes. The Day of the Stroke Bill Gasiamis (09:22) 41, 47 when the stroke happened. On the day of the stroke, did you notice there was some, something wrong? Did you feel strange, feel different? Marco Calabi (09:31) Yes, during the stroke it was terrible because I did a lot. My mate called the emergency number and they thought it was a problem of annotation. the neck. And my sister, because my brother called my sister, and my sister came into my house and she understood something was wrong, because I moved my arm in the air. Bill Gasiamis (10:02) Mm-hmm. Marco Calabi (10:30) And I had, sorry, because remembering these things makes me a little uncomfortable. yes, but okay. And my sister, together with my mate, decided to call again the Belgics. and then they went to buy house and my story began. Bill Gasiamis (11:14) Hmm. So I’m going to go back for a moment and ask you about what just happened. You got uncomfortable. it emotional to talk about what happened to you sometimes? Marco Calabi (11:23) Yes, yes, yes, because I know I never accepted this thing I’m living together with it but yes, because yes, yes, because I think Bill Gasiamis (11:42) Uh-huh. You haven’t accepted it yet. Marco Calabi (11:52) I will never accept this thing. But I try to go on. I try. Bill Gasiamis (12:01) Why? Why do you think you won’t accept it? And is that helpful to not accept it? Marco Calabi (12:08) Because it is very hard to accept. Because it is not normal, in my opinion, to accept the bad things in life. ⁓ We must live together with them. Because… because we must live and stop. But living gains understanding is very different. Yes. Bill Gasiamis (12:48) If you’ve chosen to live with it and overcome the challenges that it gives, isn’t that a form of acceptance? Marco Calabi (12:58) Maybe. is, in my opinion, it is a form of acceptance. Because sooner or later I make something, I do something. And my father said it is useless to look through the ceiling. And it is a big truth. It is useless. Your life is in your hands. And you in that moment, your life is a lot in your hands. And you must decide your future because No people are able to help you. No other people, friends, family, relatives, and so on. You must do only with your strength and soul. Bill Gasiamis (14:18) Yeah. And to me, that sounds like acceptance. You have taken responsibility for the ⁓ recovery that you have to do. You’ve taken responsibility for your life. You’ve made steps to rehabilitate yourself, your emotions, your mental health. You wrote a book about what happened to you. And that sounds like you have accepted a lot of what happened to you, even though perhaps what it sounds like you’re saying maybe, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, it sounds like you’re saying, ⁓ I’m not going to give up. Writing the book “Life Change: To Hell and Back” Marco Calabi (15:02) Yes, yes, because I wrote a book because I followed a possible path because it was a path of recovering not only physical recovering but mainly mental recovery and writing the book was very helpful for me. And I hope it is helpful for others. Because in the beginning, I wrote the book because I tried to tell my story. And then I said, my story is useless. in this moment. I can make something. And so the book has another meaning. And because I want in this way to help, to share, to share. It is the right word. to share my experience. Not to… to share. To share. Bill Gasiamis (16:36) Yeah. Life change to hell and back is the English title, but you wrote the book in Italian and then had it translated to English. Correct. Marco Calabi (16:45) Yes, yes. In Italian, it is called Cambio di Vita. And in English, is ⁓ called Life Change. And to hell and back is the subtitle, because I went to tell. it was an help for me and perhaps I come back to tell to share to the others what I saw and what I did feel and I hope this experience will help in some way other people. Bill Gasiamis (17:17) Mm-hmm. Understand. Your journey started after the second time the emergency services were called to your house. What happened after that? Did they come to your house and then they took you to hospital? Did they treat you at your house? What happened? Marco Calabi (17:59) No, no, the physiotherapist and the therapist went to my house because I was not able to go to the hospital again. And then Italian hospitals decided to come directly. to my house and help me in my house. And so physiotherapists and local beauties, they were incredible. They were very, very professional and very, very helpful for me. Helped me to recover a little my body. in my speech. Bill Gasiamis (18:59) Before the recovery, I just wanted to understand what happened when you were having the stroke, the day of the stroke. your sister called the emergency services a second time. Did they take you to hospital to understand what was wrong? Marco Calabi (19:14) Yes. Yes, and I was operated immediately because my brain started to grow. And then I was operated because they didn’t want to… Bill Gasiamis (19:23) huh. Expand. Marco Calabi (19:47) to have to experience later problems. And they operated to me for eight hours. And then I was inducted with a comma. because my brain needed to rest. And then I woke up on a bed looking around and seeing people. And I remember I remembered a woman said, it is time to walk. And with a lot of difficulty, I started to walk. And then I was transferred to another hospital. to specialize ⁓ in stroke recovering. And there I was there for two months. Bill Gasiamis (21:10) Mm-hmm. And what were the deficits you needed to get rehabilitated from? Did you have problems with your body, with your limbs, with your, what was the problem? Marco Calabi (21:27) Problems with the walk, problems with the speaker. a problem to it because I was, I don’t know, it is visible. Yes, yes, because during the search they opened a hole. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (21:47) ⁓ trick you trick you asked me Marco Calabi (22:05) And then the wall remains open for all of that time. And then I was eliminated from this wall. And one month later, the wall was… All was closed. Bill Gasiamis (22:36) Okay, so you had the chocostomy in for a long time and ⁓ they removed the chocostomy, then the hole is there, takes a month to close. Marco Calabi (22:39) Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And my mate says it seems a cross. I don’t know, I don’t. Okay, Why not? Bill Gasiamis (22:56) It seems across. ⁓ Why not? Yeah. So, so you had to also learn to walk again, which side of your body was impacted by the stroke, which one was it your left side or your right side that didn’t work. Marco Calabi (23:14) my right side my right side my leg my arms my arms my hands and okay all the right side and ⁓ i am weaker to the right side and okay Bill Gasiamis (23:16) Mm-hmm. Waker. Marco Calabi (23:38) In the beginning, I was not able to write. And then after a long, very long training, I am able to write again. Very, very slowly, but I am able. Bill Gasiamis (24:00) Mm hmm. And when you were in hospital, what was the hardest part of the recovery for you? Did you, when you started walking again, what was that like? Marco Calabi (24:14) In the hospital, never stop, always on the wheelchair. And I stop when I come back home. But yes. No, no, no, no. Bill Gasiamis (24:38) You stood up when you came back home, but in rehabilitation, you didn’t stand up. Marco Calabi (24:44) very very sad. very very sad. ⁓ Above all in the transportation for example from the wheelchair to the bed or do an exercise bicycle maybe but stop stop stop. ⁓ I remembered sometimes they tried to make me walk on the stairs, very, very, very few stairs, and tried to make ⁓ me walk in corridors and stuff. Bill Gasiamis (25:48) Okay and your arm, your right arm, you couldn’t use it at the shoulder and the hand, is that what the problem was? Marco Calabi (25:58) Yeah, I can use it. I can use it. It is weaker. A little weaker. But I can use it in this moment. When I was in the hospital, my right arm had problems. Because ⁓ the mobility was limited. And after two months, I was able to move it freely. And now I’m able to move it again in every direction. Bill Gasiamis (26:49) Hmm. ⁓ Very good. When you came home from hospital, who was at home with you? Were you living alone or did you have some family with you? Marco Calabi (26:58) No, no, no, with my family, with my sister and with my mate because my sister and my mate never leave me alone. Leave me alone. they encouraged me. Thanks God because… ⁓ I think in this moment, family, friends, relatives, mates are very, very important. Above all, in this moment. Bill Gasiamis (27:44) Was there somebody that helped guide you through the recovery? Someone that stepped up and you had a lot of support from? The Importance of Support During Recovery Marco Calabi (27:51) My Yes, my friends. Above all, one of my friends who lives in the Netherlands because he was very worried about my health. And my bait talked to him to synchronize him about my condition and after and when I went back home he was very very very present and he was very very he was a very good friend. Bill Gasiamis (28:52) understand. So he came, supported you, was very present when you came back home. Yeah. Marco Calabi (29:00) Yes, yes, yes. Above all, my mom, my sister, my baby, obviously, my friends. Because in this moment, it is a moment you understand very well the friends. more close in the friends maybe, ⁓ maybe are fearful of your situation. Bill Gasiamis (29:44) Yes, yes, very much. Lots of people get fearful ⁓ when somebody they know how to stroke, they don’t know how to help and what to do. Marco Calabi (29:53) Yes, because I think it is natural. I understand it is natural because the first thing a friend, a person who knows you in things is what I can do. And she is very fearful because the situation is huge. And I understand in this moment, in that moment, you understand very well the people. And you understand very well the quality. Bill Gasiamis (30:39) Yes. Marco Calabi (30:46) Yes, you are the same. You are the same. Bill Gasiamis (30:47) your friends. Yeah, very common, very common. Doesn’t matter if you live in Italy, America, Australia, experience is very similar. People have very similar ⁓ reporting about friendships. Marco Calabi (30:59) Yes, I don’t think it is different from country to country because we are human being and stop and and stop. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (31:08) you People are people. What kind of things did you need help with at home? Could you go to the bathroom on your own? Could you eat on your own? What help was your family providing you? Marco Calabi (31:28) Yes, in the beginning I was helped in everything because they prepared my lunch, ⁓ they helped me to go to the bathroom, they face outside the door, checking the situation. Okay, okay, okay. I understand, okay. And then, with time, I conquered my autonomy. Because, for example, going to the bathroom, cooking something. Bill Gasiamis (31:58) Thank God. Thanks a lot. Marco Calabi (32:22) and doing my pet and so on. It is very important because in these moments you say to yourself, I’m able again. My life is not useless. It is silly to say. I know. It is very, very silly to say. But… Bill Gasiamis (32:54) in the moment, it’s probably okay in the moment, but now on reflection, it’s silly to say that, but at the moment it’s difficult and it’s a emotional experience and it’s a relief that you have and you have some autonomy now again, and you feel good about it. So yeah. Gaining Autonomy and Finding Purpose Marco Calabi (33:01) Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, you feel good because you think you have a power again. I don’t know. And it is a moment. It is a very important moment for you. I understand. I understand the luckiness. able to know because other people ⁓ has no luck ⁓ like me. Like me. And I understand. And this thing makes me run because, OK, I’m lucky and so I want Bill Gasiamis (33:55) Mm-hmm. Marco Calabi (34:11) I want to help others because I’m black. And so. Bill Gasiamis (34:16) Yes, have luck. You have a bit of luck on your side. You are improving. You’re getting better. You have autonomy. Again, you want to help other people because it’s important. Marco Calabi (34:25) Yes, very. In my opinion, it is very, very important because life otherwise is meaningless. you have to give some meaning to your life. And the stroke in some way helped me to discover my possible goal in my life. Bill Gasiamis (34:44) Yeah. calling in life, understand. So you didn’t get married, you didn’t have a family. Marco Calabi (35:09) No, I never married, but I have made a girlfriend for, I don’t know, 11, 12 years. We are like married. No, no, no, no. Bill Gasiamis (35:28) Okay, but you didn’t have children. Okay. So for you made a good point about purpose and meaning in life and helping other people. If you’re, if you don’t have family to, ⁓ fuss over to ⁓ to help out, to support, et cetera, when they’re young, like children, it could be a little bit of a gap in your life about purpose and meaning. And now that you had the stroke, you found that supporting other people provides you with some additional purpose and meaning above your relationship as well with your partner. Marco Calabi (35:50) Yes. Yes. Yes, because not ⁓ having keys makes me available, let me see, help others who have keys and maybe ⁓ they are busy, too busy. Bill Gasiamis (36:22) Yeah. Marco Calabi (36:35) for other things and I try to make ⁓ my life helpful for those ones. Bill Gasiamis (36:46) Yeah, you have more spare time and you can allocate that to helping other people. Yeah. So, you know, the Marco Calabi (36:50) Yes, yes, yes, yes. Bill Gasiamis (36:59) You talk very positively about your recovery. You’re focusing on all the positive things. You wrote a book. You want to help other people. But was there some times that you really struggled, that you had a really hard time and you needed more support emotionally or mentally? Marco Calabi (37:18) both of things. I had ⁓ moments with a lot of climate. Bill Gasiamis (37:21) Both. crying, yeah, very common. Marco Calabi (37:32) because ⁓ in those moments I was ⁓ I saw my life had problems. And for example, my mother’s teach me again ⁓ to wake on the shoes. And so in that moment, I… was I was ⁓ I… ⁓ I understood my situation very deeply. And why I wanted to prove it? Because every day I wanted to go on and every day I wanted to progress because I don’t want to live was moments again. I would like to make my life better. Bill Gasiamis (39:06) Uh-huh. Understand. Yeah. But it was difficult to make your life better because you’re just in the recovery phase. You’re very restricted. Things are difficult. The Power of Mindset in Recovery Marco Calabi (39:14) Yes. It is very, very, important the presence of your family, of your friends, because otherwise I would not be here. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (39:40) Yeah, that helped to bring you back. Marco Calabi (39:41) Yes, yes. And then after their help, you must help yourself. Because I understand, I understand you have everything to complain, but complaining is useless. It’s useless. Bill Gasiamis (39:54) as well. Marco Calabi (40:09) Complaining is natural, but it must be very short. A moment of self-reflection, a moment and stop. And then you must do something for yourself and stop. Stop to look to the ceiling. This useless. I wanted to say this useless. Bill Gasiamis (40:45) Yeah, I agree. But it’s something we all do. We all find ourselves complaining about our situation, but as long as you don’t stay there for a long amount of time, you can do the complaint and then move on and continue looking at things that you… Marco Calabi (40:57) Hmm. Hmm. Yes, Complaining is not a part, it’s a mainly part of my spirit. I complain ⁓ very, very few times. I understand people are different and the complaining is different, but… You must very, very, very aware of your situation and this stroke maybe makes you aware, more aware about yourself, about your problems, about your weakness and starting, starting, I interline, starting. from that you can go on. Bill Gasiamis (42:04) You can go on. Yeah, I agree. When you complain about things, like what kind of things is okay to complain about? Like in Italy, if the pasta is not cooked al dente, you must complain. Marco Calabi (42:23) Okay, yeah. Okay, yes, yes. Bill Gasiamis (42:24) you It’s important. You have to tell the chef, I’m sorry, the pasta is not al dente. You have to take it back. Marco Calabi (42:35) Okay, but you complain, you learn to complain about very important things. Yes. Bill Gasiamis (42:46) Yes, it’s feedback. It’s not complaining. It’s feedback. My food is not al dente and I need you to make it again so I can eat it because I can’t eat like this. It’s too cooked. Marco Calabi (42:51) What? I never was, I never liked a very, very precious food and I ate everything. I tasted everything, I ate everything. Even in the hospital, I ate everything. Life Lessons Learned Post-Stroke Bill Gasiamis (43:24) Is Italian hospital food good or is it terrible? Marco Calabi (43:31) It is a hospital book. And so it is very light. It is very, very, very simple. And it is very teachable. it is not a good book. Bill Gasiamis (43:43) Yeah. Yeah. You spoke a little bit earlier about how you have to go on with your life. So looking back now, how have you changed the way that you go about your life? How do you do things differently now? Marco Calabi (44:15) everything, everything, everything. I looked at the life in different way because I put the things in different priorities, working, having good time with friends and so on. Because before stroke you… to think about the things you do every day, but you don’t do that. Those ones. Then after the stroke, you start to do immediately the things. You don’t want to wait for things, the right moment and stop. Because the right moment, you understand, is now, not after, not tomorrow, not the next week. Now, it is a new way of singing life. You stop to wake because you understand time is very very precious. Bill Gasiamis (45:50) Yeah, and we may not have tomorrow. Understand. Marco Calabi (45:53) Yes, yes, you must do the things now and stop. As you can. You must not be a Superman. You must not do ⁓ things, a lot of things. You must do what you can and stop. But you must do. Bill Gasiamis (46:24) Yeah. Marco Calabi (46:25) and stop. Not tomorrow, not in one week, and not in one month. Now. You must do now. And stop. Never you understand, never stop you. Bill Gasiamis (46:47) Yeah, I agree. Once you have a stroke, you realize that you are mortal and that maybe you don’t have… Marco Calabi (46:53) It’s just… Bill Gasiamis (46:58) another 50 years or 40 years ahead of you. maybe you need to do, take more action, do more things, have the experiences you want to experience, whatever you can, I agree. ⁓ It’s something I think that is a good way to inspire people who have had a stroke, who have injuries, that you can find a way to do something that you want to do that you haven’t done. Inspiring Others Through Personal Experience Marco Calabi (47:24) Yes. Bill Gasiamis (47:24) that you love. very important to try and get it done, find a way to make it happen. Even if you’re in a wheelchair, even if it’s difficult, even if you need a lot of planning, you know, has to be something that you tick, you tick off your list of things to do. Marco Calabi (47:42) And it is not important what type of disease you suffer, cancer, stroke, leukemia, so on. It is, in my opinion, very important your mind, the way your mind, the way… Bill Gasiamis (48:10) your minds. Marco Calabi (48:10) want you, your mindset, the way you want to go on and stop. But I want, I want, I want to tell my story. Maybe, tell. If I am able to go on, everyone is able to go on. Bill Gasiamis (48:19) Yeah. Marco Calabi (48:41) It is not something special. Everyone can go to work and so Bill Gasiamis (48:51) Yeah, I agree. Everyone should go on with their life in some capacity as much as they can. ⁓ Yeah, that’s excellent. What about strengths? What have you discovered in yourself that you didn’t know was there? Did you uncover some new powers, some new strength, some better understanding of what you’re capable of? Has it been a learning experience for you to Marco Calabi (49:05) Okay. Yes. Yes, after the writing of my books was a moment of reflection because in that moment I asked to myself, I’m able to write a book, so what can block me? And in this moment, in that moment, I was able to do other things. Maybe here write another book, like choosing a social media manager for my Facebook and Instagram and asking. to hospitals and associations to tell my stories, creating podcasts and so on because writing the book created a moment, a precise moment of going forward. And in that moment, I aware. of my powers and my skills to go on. It was… Bill Gasiamis (51:02) Yeah. Yeah. You wrote a book, you did podcasts, you helped your community by speaking. You did all these things that you haven’t done before the stroke. Marco Calabi (51:10) Yes. Yes, and for example, now I’m discussing with a company for a possible speech of myself to inspire other people. And I’m telling the truth. I’m very, very happy because I hope this… Bill Gasiamis (51:30) Yeah. Marco Calabi (51:41) will ⁓ create something beautiful because I’m available to tell my story, to sell, perhaps something helpful. My best friend. Bill Gasiamis (52:01) Yeah, you know what I like about what I like about strokes and bio-codes? Sorry, go ahead. Marco Calabi (52:08) My best friend said, you are wiser. I don’t know. don’t know. I don’t know. Yes, yes. Before, was very hard. I was very, because my father was very hard. And I learned. Bill Gasiamis (52:19) Wiser. Wiser than before. Maybe. Marco Calabi (52:37) to be very hard. after the stroke, understood that heartless is useless because you reach the hearts of people with softness, not with heartlessness. Heartlessness makes ⁓ you more hateful. and not more lovable. Bill Gasiamis (53:10) Yeah, understand. Yes, I agree. Very wise. That’s very wise. Very wise. ⁓ You know what I like about your telling your story in for another organization or to inspire people is a lot of the people in the audience will not have had a stroke or another health issue or anything like that. Marco Calabi (53:11) Go on, go on, sorry. Yes. Bill Gasiamis (53:37) And what I like about it is that now there’s several years have passed since your stroke. So you’re standing on a stage telling your story. And one day, if those people happen to have a stroke or a negative medical experience, they have a picture in their mind of once upon a time, I was sitting in a room and there was this gentleman who… told his story and he was telling us about how he overcame his challenges, how he ⁓ improved, how he got better. And maybe those people who are unwell now because something happened to them, like everybody in life, things go wrong. Maybe they could say, I remember that man and the story that he told me, and maybe I can take some action and do similar things and get better. Marco Calabi (54:27) Mm-hmm. Bill Gasiamis (54:32) like he did. Marco Calabi (54:32) Yes. I tell the truth. It is not easy. It’s not easy. The experience is made of steps. In steps, steps. In the beginning, I… Bill Gasiamis (54:50) steps. Marco Calabi (54:58) You want to prove yourself, you are able to do things. And these are very important to you. And then you change. Steps, you change. Because the situation is changing. And you cannot, cannot, get things before you experience all the steps. It is, in my opinion, impossible. You must live every step. The first steps are physical. And then your mind changes. But the first steps are physical and soft. and you can you must you must us us us let that eat you must us let you be because you are not a superman you are not a special man and every every person experience these steps little by little and so you must aware of this situation. Otherwise, try to go forward faster. And in my opinion, it is a very wrong way to go on. Bill Gasiamis (56:55) Very wise, my friend. Marco Calabi (56:56) Thank you, thank you! Thank you, thank you! Bill Gasiamis (57:03) Your friend was correct when he said that you are much more wise now. I agree with him. Marco Calabi (57:07) Okay, okay, okay. I will report you. Bill Gasiamis (57:15) Report back to him, let him know that I agree with him. Now, your book is available online, correct? We can get it on Amazon, everywhere. Marco Calabi (57:21) Yes. Okay. Because in Italy, ⁓ I found a publisher. In the world, I decided to publish myself the book because I wanted to spread my story. as full as possible, I would say. And so I think what is the best platform, in my opinion, it is in this moment, Amazon. Because it can provide a digital version, paper version. ⁓ Bill Gasiamis (58:07) Yeah. Marco Calabi (58:18) is only for US countries and so on. Instead, digital fashion is worldwide. And so, it is very powerful because I can reach every person in the world. Bill Gasiamis (58:44) Yes, hopefully. Marco Calabi (58:45) It was my idea. And I started and I make my book translated. I published it in Amazon. I created a digital paperback version and so on because I wanted to make it available. Very, very much. Bill Gasiamis (59:19) Yes, indeed. you have well done. I’m going to have a link to the Amazon ⁓ book. And also you will send me some links to ⁓ any other areas you would like us to send people if they’re interested to find out more information about it. I thank you for reaching out and joining me on the podcast. I very much appreciate it. It’s nice to meet you and to hear your story and all the best with your ongoing recovery. Marco Calabi (59:24) Okay. Okay. Thanks. Yes. Okay, and I say thank you, thank you, Bayard for your time, people, and thank you very much to tell my story and to give me the possibility to tell my story. Bill Gasiamis (1:00:08) Well, what a lovely conversation and what a journey and what wisdom to our listeners. If today’s episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. Leave a comment and leave a review. Subscribe if you haven’t already. Marco’s book, Life Change to Hell and Back is available on Amazon. The link is in the description below. And remember, if you want to stay on top of the latest stroke research without the overwhelm, turnto.ai has you covered. just $2 a week use code bill for 10 % off. Link is in the description And until next time, keep going. The post Return to Work After Stroke – Marco Calabi’s Honest Recovery Story appeared first on Recovery After Stroke.

Description Stop experimenting with AI and start driving ROI. Subscribe to our Newsletter:https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this keynote from the Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat, Nina Harding breaks down the massive shift happening in the AI landscape as customers move away from experimental pilots and demand concrete ROI and business outcomes. She emphasizes that the era of selling products and time-and-materials approaches is over, replaced by outcome-based, verticalized selling where vendors and partners share accountability. Through real-world examples in healthcare and retail, Harding outlines how partners can leverage Copilot Studio, Agent 365, and Microsoft’s incentive programs to build specific superpowers, differentiate themselves, and ultimately lead the AI mission alongside Microsoft. Key Takeaways Customers are no longer interested in AI experimentation and now expect immediate, concrete return on investment. Selling products is dead; the modern approach requires a consultative, signal-based strategy focused entirely on business outcomes. The traditional time-and-materials billing model is disappearing as clients demand shared accountability for project success. Rapid proliferation of AI agents has made security and governance top priorities for enterprise customers. Success in the Microsoft ecosystem now requires partners to highly verticalize their value propositions by industry. Defining and clearly articulating your unique “superpower” or niche is essential to stand out to the Microsoft field sales organization. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJJ4Zcf4tZc&t=1920s If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags Nina Harding, Microsoft AI, artificial intelligence ROI, AI agents, Agent 365, Copilot Studio, outcome-based selling, verticalization, healthcare AI, retail AI, Cognizant, Davos 2026, AI governance, AI security, technology transformation, Ultimate Partner Live, enterprise AI adoption, digital transformation, system integrators, AI pilots Transcript [00:00:00] Nina Harding: More importantly, we want to serve more and more people faster, and AI is coming in and having a very practical approach in healthcare alone. [00:00:14] Vince Menzione: We just finished Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat here in beautiful Boca to a sold out [00:00:19] Vince Menzione: crowd. Come join me now for a compelling discussion on the impacts of the tectonic shifts we’re all seeing. [00:00:27] Vince Menzione: I feel incredibly fortunate, uh, to have this, this, this friend Nina who came into the studio here for the first time, actually earlier, well last year, geez, earlier this year. [00:00:38] Vince Menzione: It was last year, right after my accident I think. And, uh, we gotta spend some time together. And she was so good to, uh, make her time available and her team’s time available to come down here to be with us today. Ne I’m so thrilled to have you. I am going to turn over the stage to you. Uh, you’ve got some incredible learnings. [00:00:57] Vince Menzione: I know you’ve been on the AI tour with Microsoft. Yeah. And you’ve got some great learnings you’re gonna share about what’s happening. Absolutely. So it’s so great to have you. [00:01:05] Vince Menzione: It’s nice to see you. [00:01:06] Nina Harding: Nice to see you. [00:01:07] Nina Harding: Thank you. Well, thanks everyone. It’s great to see so many familiar faces and then some new faces as well. [00:01:15] Nina Harding: Um, because we’re in a little bit more of an intimate environment, I thought I would approach this a little bit differently. Give you some better insights into what we’re actually hearing at Microsoft with our customers, some of the things that are actually moving the needle that we’re seeing some of our partners do. [00:01:34] Nina Harding: So really to share some of the best practices out there, and hopefully you’ll leave with some more insight or tips and tricks, um, is really what I would love to do because our job. Collectively is really this transformation and to take a advantage of it out there in the market right now. [00:01:57] Nina Harding: Let’s see [00:01:57] Nina Harding: here. [00:01:59] Nina Harding: I can move slides. Well, this one isn’t moving. Any slides? [00:02:07] Nina Harding: No. Okay, great. So, um, some of you might. Uh, know that I’m a Floridian now, right? So I just live right up, up the way in Palm Beach. Um, so not too far, but I still wouldn’t miss this opportunity to be with all of you. Um, there is an energy that I think that we’re all feeling right now, and, uh, it’s, it’s palpable. [00:02:32] Nina Harding: We’re finding right now that our customers are really going from this landscape of experimenting with ai. Really to looking at the outcomes and having expectations around the momentum that they’re seeing. Right. That’s a big shift, right? We, and things are going pretty quickly, so I look at things almost quarterly now on what is that core message and what are, what is the difference in the tone from our customers of what they’re expecting? [00:03:06] Nina Harding: What we’re gonna talk a little bit about today is how all of you, our partners, are such a critical part of that journey. Actually, sometimes the most important part. You’re on the front lines with the customers. You’re the ones having those conversations. You’re the ones that are in there arm to arm with their teams, listening to what they’re experiencing, their challenges that they’re facing, and they’re really wanting now to go from this world of, Hey, we have lots of different pilots. [00:03:41] Nina Harding: Right? A lot of us know that right into, oh my gosh, it’s not about pilots anymore. They really want that ROI story. They want those outcomes and it’s looking very different for all of us. The way that we sell, the way that we go into our engagements, the way that we even price things, the way that we, meaning Microsoft partner and customer are locking arms is fundamentally very different. [00:04:15] Nina Harding: We have to go in collectively. We have to also be responsible for the outcomes and deliver on those. ROI is that headline that we’re all after. Right. It is the most important part of the puzzle right now because there isn’t a single boardroom that isn’t talking about AI and you guys are all experiencing it. [00:04:39] Nina Harding: It’s easier than ever to go in and have the conversation. The hardest part is how do we quickly get to an ROI study, so you or ROI case so that we can continue to build on that. And when you’re looking at this every. Customer is providing signals out there to help you grow that penetration into the account. [00:05:04] Nina Harding: And I’m gonna share some of the signals that I think that are really meaningful. But that’s the most important thing is we’re no longer, and I know you guys all know this, we’re no longer selling product at all anymore. We’re selling those outcomes. And I can tell you at Microsoft, we’re spending a tremendous amount of time retraining all of our sales reps. [00:05:25] Nina Harding: Really to be focused on how do you listen and do that consultative signal based sale. How do you actually go in and start selling, not selling, but I mean it is selling, but listening to the journey that they want to go through. What are the challenges that they’re facing and what’s the transformation that we’re able to kind of go and be a part of together with our partners? [00:05:54] Nina Harding: Notice it’s not about product. Product is just the tools in your tool chest to create those outcomes. So that’s gonna be really important as we go through this journey. [00:06:09] Nina Harding: Uh, so I saw the, the title of the session, uh, mentioned Davos and Davos was an interesting time. Uh, Microsoft has a very, actually, a very big presence at Davos and, uh, we had over 300 customer meetings there, uh, where we were meeting with some of the top companies around the globe. And it was very much affirmed that. [00:06:34] Nina Harding: Uh, the, the concept of AI we’re past, like curiosity stage, right? We’re way past that and we’re even past that. The art of the possible discussion, right? Uh, what the, the customers are almost at the point is, is come in and tell me, tell me what to do. Show me how to do it. It’s a very different position than, Hey, we’re presenting you with all these different possibilities. [00:07:08] Nina Harding: They’re They’re tired. They’re tired of all the possibilities. They wanna get to the brass tacks of how are you gonna change my customer service department? How are you gonna make it easier for my hr? How am I going to derive growth? What are some of the other things that you guys are experiencing out there? [00:07:23] Nina Harding: Like what are some of those other ROI drivers that people are asking, where am I gonna find the money? What for? For doing the project or out of the project? Other people? I Okay. To do the project. Okay. Resourcing. Okay. So what we’re seeing here is that, uh, the conversation is very much now focused on, okay, I need sec, I need security. [00:07:50] Nina Harding: That has been louder than ever before. So, Vince, the one thing I would say about that slide where you had those five different pillars, I’d put security on the bottom. Understanding your data, your data platform on the bottom, those are consistent across all those pillars. And then you can kind of hit at them. [00:08:10] Nina Harding: But, uh, there’s a lot of energy, there’s a lot of excitement, but it’s rooted in what are you materially going to do to change my business, and is your skin in the game to help me do it and I’ll pay you for that outcome? The concept of this time and materials approach gone. Gone. Even at Microsoft, we’re adjusting to the fact that the customers aren’t like, oh. [00:08:35] Nina Harding: Just hand it over to a system integrator and they’ll deliver on it. They’re like, oh no, we want you accountable too. You’re accountable for the outcomes as well, which is, oh gosh, okay. How do we do that in a partnery model that makes sense where we’re not tripping over each other, but we’re going in stronger together. [00:08:54] Nina Harding: We have one message together and we’re really focused on driving that. They’re also really concerned around the governance of all these agents, right? I see a lot of heads shaking on this. I mean, there’s a lot of proliferation right now. There’s a lot of excitement. I mean, I don’t know in your companies, but people are building agents faster and quicker, uh, than ever before, and some of them are really, really cool and they’re making huge point savings of times. [00:09:22] Nina Harding: Everything from. You know, some of you guys have probably heard me talk about everything from, uh, working on performance reviews to what are all of the incentives that we have for partners and making that easy to understand to, uh, to helping me understand patterns in our financials and what partners are really performing and growing. [00:09:45] Nina Harding: All of these agents are just popping up everywhere, but that creates a real governance issue and a real security issue for a lot of companies as well. So you take all of this and you hear this momentum and I think, uh, that together we’re really well poised. I think Microsoft is in a unique position together with you. [00:10:07] Nina Harding: On this frame, we have Agent 365, which helps you manage all these different agents, right? So that’s an exciting. How many of you’re familiar with agents? 365. Great. And I promise I’m not a product person. I’m not gonna do a lot of pitches, so don’t worry about that, um, at all. But, uh, we also have copilot studio and foundry, and so we have this whole, uh, set of capability, but that capability only comes to life if we’re able to connect with the customer, build the outcome, and making sure that the CEOs see all of us as their partners on that strategy and journey. [00:10:47] Nina Harding: So what does that look like? So I talked a little bit about signals, and signals, is that ability to listen to the, to the customers, what’s really, really me, uh, meaningful and frontier firms are doing this on a consistent basis all the time. Listening to the specific needs use cases, et cetera. So we at Microsoft have been trying to not only share all these different use cases that we have exposure to, but in addition. [00:11:17] Nina Harding: We turned on functionality, and I’ll talk about that in a little bit so that we can also share amongst each other as a community and understand those use cases. Uh, what’s really important is that, um, we’re moving from this world of all these like little one-off projects to a strategy and a platform that everyone wants to move to, but it’s all also getting powered by agents. [00:11:42] Nina Harding: That’s, that’s where we are today. So. [00:11:49] Nina Harding: Having a little trouble. I’m not gonna go through this too. Everyone’s familiar with this in, in here, the Frontier overview. If you’re not, let me know. Um, but basically one of the things that we find is really helpful is, is just sharing where we have seen proof behind having the conversation around the AI journey. [00:12:12] Nina Harding: Around the, the customer journey as you’re going out there. Um, there are really four different areas that we’ve talked about, and I’m not going to drain this ’cause there’s lots and you can, you can, uh, go onto the internet. You can see me talking about all these different areas. I don’t wanna spend too much time here, but these are four of the different. [00:12:33] Nina Harding: I would say categories where when you’re looking at different ways that you can make a material difference with the, the, the customer that we find the most momentum. So around enriching employee experiences, changing the way we, uh, engage with customers. Uh, changing processes as well. And then, uh, the outcomes, like really transforming the way we go about business. [00:12:59] Nina Harding: And we wanna do something about bringing it in to the flow of the work, everyday work. How many of you are finding that you’re actually using agents in your day-to-day workflow? Isn’t that cool? And then as you continue to use it, it becomes easier and easier and easier. And. I know from my team, I’m starting to look at what is the e everyday usage versus the monthly usage, right? [00:13:26] Nina Harding: It’s the every day. It’s become almost, uh, your second hand. And what’s important, uh, on this is that we’re giving, uh, listening to all these signals giving, um, the consistency, um, of the, the engagement with. With the clients, we’re able to all share the same stories and be able to scale at a much faster pace. [00:13:54] Nina Harding: So what does that look like? Here we go. Um, one of the things that we talk about at Microsoft, and the reason why I have this up here is that we’ve moved the conversation away from product into these customer outcomes, which really becomes about. Industry discussion. You have to speak their voice. You have to understand their business problems. [00:14:21] Nina Harding: You have to listen for what is materially different. So I’m actually sharing this, which you don’t normally see in a lot of presentations out to Microsoft about the structure of the organization, the takeaway. This is a sales organization in enterprise. The takeaway that I want you to have from that is look at the verticalization. [00:14:43] Nina Harding: We’ve done. It’s no longer by territory. The ball has moved, the conversation has moved entirely. So what does that say to all of you as well? Your value proposition as you’re working with our field has to be verticalized. The way you engage has to be verticalized. What you say, um, what the, the outcomes that you think differentiates yourself. [00:15:12] Nina Harding: Verticalized. So there isn’t the approach of like doing this like mask gorilla campaign across, for example, the Americas. And I’m just using this as an example on, um, the small and medium business side as well. Um, the, they’re a little bit more territory based still, but um, at least at the enterprise, everything has to be about customer value. [00:15:38] Nina Harding: Customer value. So, um, what this also suggests to me is the way we’re working and where we’ve seen a lot of success is when all of you are starting to tailor your messages and differentiate yourselves by customer success stories. Use cases where you’ve had premise, uh, penetration as a software partner, but you have to tie it back to the industry again. [00:16:05] Nina Harding: It’s just different. And so if I’m very transparent that that’s become, has gone from a nice to have to critical as the field is looking at, who are those go-to partners? It’s the go-to partners that speak retail. It’s the go-to partners that speak oil and gas and I don’t know, I, I, I see some nodding of heads. [00:16:27] Nina Harding: Some people know this, some people don’t. But I can see the shift tremendously over the last six months. So, um, hopefully that’s helpful in, in, in kind of sharing just how we’re walking the walk and talking the talk. So as I go back to industry, um, I thought what would be helpful is to take a few examples so you have a chance to see. [00:16:52] Nina Harding: In life, what are, what are we actually seeing at Microsoft? And if you guys are seeing something else, I would love to hear that too. But these, this is an example in healthcare and when we’re looking at, uh, a particular industry, we’re looking at what are some of the pain points? What are the top trends? [00:17:11] Nina Harding: What are some of the challenges folks are, are facing? And then what are the use cases that are really making traction here? This is a different way of taking that frontier vision and doing that click down by industry. And so what we’re also doing is we’re looking at who are partners that can help us in healthcare that can help answer some of these key challenges. [00:17:35] Nina Harding: Who are the ones that have the ability to have those material conversations in that trust? In healthcare, for example, there’s a ton of pressure. I mean. We all are consumers of healthcare. Hopefully we, all of us, have been lucky enough to have healthcare, um, in the, in this, uh, forum, but there’s a lot of clinician burnout, rising costs, right? [00:18:01] Nina Harding: The, the expense for, uh, medicines and so forth. But more importantly, we want to serve more and more people faster, and AI is coming in and having a very practical approach. Healthcare alone. So many of you, I talk about, um, the fact that at one point I was paralyzed, right? So I was paralyzed from T two down and, um, I go in every six months for an MRI, uh, to check, to check if everything’s still functioning. [00:18:32] Nina Harding: And the nervous system is going well. My doctor has had to manually look at that. Now he’s using AI to look at. History and the progression since 2008. That’s game changing. And on top of that, he is looking at me and having a conversation and looking in my eyes and observing me instead and using Dragon to have it feel epic to really think about how that’s changed my personal experience with the healthcare system and changed how a physician can show up. [00:19:09] Nina Harding: So there are many, many, um, many use cases around like patient access and, uh, innovation that we’re trying to do, surgeries, uh, being able to do clinical, clinical trials, but AI is everywhere and that’s what’s really important is that we’re figuring out for all of you what your software solution. Services offering, or even if you’re selling that, you have that value, value proposition down at that level. [00:19:43] Nina Harding: So let’s take a look at retail, for example. We have a short little video. Are we gonna be able to run that video? This is where we’re seeing a lot of shrinking. Margins, people wanting more, uh, intimacy with their customer. Here we go. [00:21:09] Nina Harding: Are we good? Well, that was a quite, uh, quite a nice, uh, uh, digital response to the end of the video. But what you’re seeing is people are using it in all different facets as we go into an example. I always love to do, use examples of partners that are hitting the mark ’cause we can all learn from ’em and myself included. [00:21:30] Nina Harding: We’re partners that are really successful. I chose to use Cognizant. Cognizant was actually our partner Si of the year, um, at the Americas level. And one of the things, and I won’t drain it on, um, the right hand side of this, uh, the slide, but they really are helping the customer’s move in a framework approach by industry, uh, to an AI landscape. [00:21:58] Nina Harding: Uh, they, they have secured an end-to-end solution and they’re focused on real business outcomes, and they have been growing at over 30% year over year. Huge. That’s great. Right? That’s what we all want for our businesses. And so what you’re seeing here is. They have a narrative around the frontier firms and they pull that through when they’re engaged in the clients and with our field. [00:22:27] Nina Harding: And then they’re using the incentives that we have. And don’t worry, I have a slide on some of the incentives we have, um, to actually make sure that they’re using those effectively in the pre-sales motion, but most importantly on the adoption and the change management after they’ve actually, uh, built out the solutions. [00:22:45] Nina Harding: And that’s really, really, really key here. So here’s an example of, um, of Cognizant at Coldwater Creek and Soft Surroundings. They had two different platforms and they brought it all together and then they brought Dynamics in as well. And what they have actually been able to do is improve a lot of the inventory management, the visualization, um, of all the inventory around. [00:23:14] Nina Harding: Around all of their stores and their warehouses, and they’ve been able to streamline the fulfillment and improved, uh, reduced back orders. What you’re seeing is those are all concrete examples of the outcomes that they were trying to drive for at the beginning, and those were all. Key pain points. And so they go in, cognizant will go in and understand with what are the material things that you are, that’s keeping you up at night, that is creating that drainage, uh, in your accounts or if you could transform, what does that look like? [00:23:52] Nina Harding: And so there, they spend the whole conversation together with Microsoft focused on doing that. And then we do the outcome based proposal. Very different, right? It creates for a much stronger vendor relationship, and the customer feels like they really have in the essence of the word partners, helping them to be successful. [00:24:15] Nina Harding: Right. [00:24:20] Nina Harding: Here we go. So I promised you some of the incentives, and I know you might just take a, a quick peek at some of these. These are, these are, um, some of the incentives that. Microsoft has put forward to help our partners on this journey. Uh, this is a slide that we’ve created from the America’s perspective to try and simplify it. [00:24:42] Nina Harding: Now there’s a lot behind it, right? But to try and help simplify, um, where are the incentives available? And I think this is one of the first times you’re actually saying what’s available for the sis. Versus for the software partners. And then we’re gonna hear more today about what’s also available for the channel partners as well. [00:25:03] Nina Harding: Um, it’s really thinking about what is your behavior as a partner? How are you showing up? How are, uh, you making a contribution to that customer? And then how can Microsoft best support you in that journey? So there’s all sorts of, uh, all sorts of incentives here, and it’s really, uh, designed to be flexible to what you need. [00:25:24] Nina Harding: But for the, I, I think it’s very focused on the value proposition as well that you bring to the table. So, um, I encourage you to take a look at this, make sure that you have this in your diary or your flipping of, of how are we maximizing, um, deals. And we can certainly go through a lot more of this. And we have webinars and so forth that will take you through all of that. [00:25:52] Nina Harding: Alright, so. I’ve talked a lot about this outcome-based selling, and that’s, it’s literally how Microsoft is starting to move forward on how do we go about engaging with the customers and with our partners. You’re gonna see, because our customers are asking more Microsoft involved and for us to go jointly into the opportunities. [00:26:16] Nina Harding: Not that we necessarily, we’re not building out a larger consulting force or anything like that, but. We want to make sure that the customer ask that Microsoft is engaged in working with our partners, is honored, um, and that we’re, we’re part of that, and that we’re also sharing our, our experiences and learning from all of you at the same time on who has the best, uh, approach, Beth best, best methodologies and best practices to light up our customers together. [00:26:51] Nina Harding: But the ROI doesn’t really show up just in dollars alone. We all know this, right? Um, it could be in, uh. Satisfaction it could be in care. So as you’re starting to look at this new evolution of how we’re really landing the value proposition of ai, we have to think outside of the box that it’s not just monetary and it’s not, I think you said savings or securing funds and so forth, but it’s really of how do I leapfrog into the modern world? [00:27:22] Nina Harding: How do I change that entire experience and think outside of the box? And, uh, make sure that the conversation is not just about how do we optimize certain practices, but how do we have this more executive level strategy conversation on the future of how we’re gonna engage with our clients, uh, their clients in a much more, um, I think transformative and personal [00:27:51] Nina Harding: way as we go forward. [00:27:54] Nina Harding: So we know that if the outcomes are the, what we’re looking to go drive, the next question is really how do we go do that? And that is gonna be through the agents on here. You’ll see just from from out in the market, what we see will light up the market. We think that, or I can’t even say we, IIDC says 81% of leaders are expecting agents. [00:28:24] Nina Harding: Full utilization in the next 12 to 18 months. And to be honest, I think this quote is probably even two months old. So we’re already, we’re probably down to like, you know, eight, eight to 12 months. And what I’m seeing that proliferation happening, it’s crazy. So understanding that value proposition, um, whether you’re from a software company or a services company or even some of our resellers, what’s that niche? [00:28:52] Nina Harding: What’s that industry or sub-industry? What is that? Horizontal. I go after customer service within, uh, the manufacturing vertical. Right. And then are you building out agents or do you have capability? And that’s what we’re doing internally at Microsoft as well, is to help make that really visible to the field so that you’re differentiated. [00:29:15] Nina Harding: Differentiation is gonna be really key right now because there’s so many people that say, oh, I do migration services, or I can help with data, or I can do security. But it’s the specificity around the industry and what you are truly known for within that space. So one of the things that we look to do is, is looking at all of the different areas where we see agents popping up. [00:29:44] Nina Harding: And this is a helpful slide. Sometimes I think, um, it starts to highlight, um, where we’re seeing some traction in financial services. Or in healthcare manufacturing. And then when I talk about the horizontals or the personas, you start to see some of the um, really repeatable, high return on investment type of things. [00:30:08] Nina Harding: Is this resonating with some of you guys? Yeah. I’m seeing a hit, a lot of head nods. This, if you’re on the services side, right? We’re in an intimate setting. This is where I encourage you to try and build an agent, right? Package that agent, put it on marketplace, make that available, and then make that known to our field sales organization. [00:30:27] Nina Harding: ’cause they are looking for quick wins along those lines. [00:30:31] Nina Harding: So on that, um, [00:30:36] Nina Harding: uh, one of the things that we’re along the journey for is the skilling. This is moving at such a fast pace, right? Um, so you’re looking at. Um, anthropic is really a big topic right now, right? Gemini, you’re looking at cloud, you’re, um, or Claude. [00:30:55] Nina Harding: Um, you’re looking at all of these different, uh, scenarios and one of the things at Microsoft is we really wanna be open to all of these different technologies because our customers are open. So we want to be part of taking you on that journey. And one of the things that we invest in white. [00:31:12] Nina Harding: Significantly is all of the training. Um, and I wanna encourage you guys to take advantage of it. Training is not a one-time thing. It is, it is a constant muscle that you must exercise. So as I come to my conclusion, I have a couple three key things, right? One is really understanding what your superpower is, right? [00:31:33] Nina Harding: The partners that I’m finding are really aligned well with the field are really winning. Those stories are the ones that have. Know and can articulate their superpowers. What am I known for? What are the use cases I can either build to or have agents against? And where have I done this consistently? And packaged really, really concretely, right? [00:31:55] Nina Harding: Um, this, this proliferate of like, I can do everything. Unfortunately, you get lost a little bit in the noise, right? So clear positioning, proof point’s, so critical right now, and reinforcing that credibility with the clients that have adopted. The second thing is that you’ve heard a little bit about this hopefully. [00:32:16] Nina Harding: How many of you have heard of the part partner success story? Okay, this is really, really key. We launched about maybe a month ago, and we already have over a hundred, uh, stories from partners, and the field is loving it. What it is is it brands the stories with your brand if you submit them. So what? Talk about credibility, um, with the field and with our marketers to have your name and that recognition picked up. [00:32:45] Nina Harding: It’s really, really fantastic. So I encourage you to do that. For those of you taking quick snaps, I did put a code on here, so if you wanna go straight to it, uh, you can take it. Um, and go explore with it. What’s nice about it is it’s AI based, so it will help you write these stories very, very quickly. [00:33:04] Nina Harding: There’s no reason why your sales reps can’t be writing these stories, and then yes, [00:33:11] Nina Harding: uh, yeah, you can do no meaning like from enterprise. No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You can do it on any, on any, there is a different level of fidelity of if you have the customer’s permission. Right. Um, to pu to publish it or not. And that’s some functionality we’re working on. If there’s enough traction of, of this is to help you guys. [00:33:32] Nina Harding: Secure that with Microsoft. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it can be any customer there. But I encourage you to take a look at that. And I know I’m two minutes over here, so I’m just gonna leave you with this. Um, at the end of the day, as I, as I wrap up here, I just wanna make sure that what, where we’re going and we’re going together, that it’s simple and actionable between us and it’s easy for our field to understand. [00:34:00] Nina Harding: Where you play the value proposition you play so that we’re going into deals even more effectively together. Right? So you heard industry, sub-industry, persona level or horizontal. Put that in if, um. Figuring out what your superpower is, making sure that you’re trained, that there’s evidence around the success, and capturing that in ways, uh, that are critical to not only your business, but giving us the visibility of that success. [00:34:31] Nina Harding: Like scream from the rack rafters. Use these tools to make sure that we know just how transformational you’ve been in some of the customers and where you’re uniquely winning. So, so important. So keep investing in the skilling. You can see my kind of like five power plays, right? And the last one always being that superpowers. [00:34:56] Nina Harding: So with that, um, if we do all of these things consistently, you won’t just be keeping up with ai. I think we will all be leading on that AI mission. So thank you very much. I appreciate it. [00:35:14] Vince Menzione: Don’t forget, ultimate Partner Live is coming soon, May 11th through the 13th in beautiful Bellevue, Washington. I hope to see you there.

Ped & Burk are back for more March Madness & hot takes! To start things off Adam rates Ryan's dance skills from the local dance night he participated in. Adam is still hungry from a cooking video he saw the other day and has to tell y'all about it. The boys give their takes on the Jim Carrey controversy. It's then time for Burk's perfect song and we are upset with Copyright Law. In the meat, Mm!, of the episode we discuss the first round of this year's Kid's Shows bracket before giving our thoughts on how round 2 might play out. We also draft a roster of all-time 90s sitcom characters! LOADED DRAFT CLASS ALERT. The boys remember a beautiful childhood Saturday morning to close the show.Hut Hut! Love y'all.

股市受到美以伊全面開戰的影響，本週稍早不論美、亞、歐股全部出現回調的現象，甚至連最被親睞的避險資產「黃金」都跌了。不過美股在錄音前一天反彈，那斯達克吞噬了本週的跌幅，而在錄音的當天，亞洲股市普遍大漲。 但在荷姆茲海峽的運輸狀況幾乎停擺的情況下，原油價格仍持續攀升。本集就邀請原物料研究員 Jason 來聊聊，美以伊全面開戰的細節、影響、還有後續的看法。

Hilary Berning - Gio's Garden On the Unrealistic Timelines of Insurance Companies: "It's a 6 to 9 month process just to get a wheelchair. I really need some way to get my son from point A to point B." Families with special needs children already have some challenges.  These families need help and some guidance on where they can get this help.  This is where Gio's Garden comes in. Gio's Garden is a one-of-a-kind therapeutic respite center based in Middleton, Wisconsin, and recently expanded to Sun Prairie, Wisconsin. Their essential mission: to provide safe, enriching respite care for children with special needs aged 0–7, giving parents the chance to take a break, run errands, or simply breathe. Hilary Berning shares the struggles many of these families face.  From finding a place to care for your child temporarily since you can't just leave your medically complex child with the teenager down the block. Gio's Garden fills that gap with one-on-one care, specially trained staff, and a joyful, home-like atmosphere. Their houses are filled with arts, crafts, sensory rooms, gym equipment, and caring people who “never like to say no” to a family in need. Listen as Hilary explains the needs and complexities of these children and their families and how Gio's Garden is a place that is doing all they can to help these children and their families. Enjoy! Visit at: https://giosgarden.org/ Sponsors: Live Video chat with our customers here with LiveSwitch: https://join.liveswitch.com/gfj3m6hnmguz Some videos have been recorded with Riverside: https://www.riverside.fm/?utm_campaign=campaign_5&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=rewardful&via=james-kademan   Podcast Overview: 00:00 "Local, Unique, Community Focused" 06:03 Supporting Families Through CLTS 08:49 Greek Life Fundraising Show 11:10 "Sanfilippo Syndrome Journey Shared" 13:51 "Growth, Funding, and Strategic Planning" 19:18 Franchise Expansion Plans 20:56 Inclusive Childcare and Respite Plan 25:14 Emergency Presidency Amid Crisis 27:07 "Sun Prairie Location Announcement" 30:07 "Navigating a Life-Changing Diagnosis" 35:42 Sun Prairie Studio Renovation Details 38:07 Wiseman Center Connection Insights 40:48 "Planning Ahead for Kids' Safety" 44:38 "New Podcast Venture Launch" 47:10 "Reinventing With Youthful Engagement" 51:00 Nonprofits: Vital, Challenging, Impactful 52:00 Supporting Local Nonprofits Podcast Transcription: Hilary Berning [00:00:00]: Um, because you have the big nationwide organizations, right? Make-A-Wish, Boys and Girls, like they're all over the nation. They've got nationwide people telling them what to do when providing all these things. And then you have organizations like mine, like there's no one else that does this. We are the only one that does it. We're doing it on our own. We are local. We're serving local people. All the money stays here and goes back to the kids. Hilary Berning [00:00:22]: People can really think that through a little bit where we don't have We are local, we're serving local, and we're doing good. Goal and focus on those nonprofits. James Kademan [00:00:35]: You have found Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumph and successes of business owners across the land. Downloadable audio episodes can be found on the podcast link from drawincustomers.com. We are locally underwritten by the Bank of Sun Prairie, and today we're welcoming slash preparing to learn from Hillary Berning of Gio's Garden. So Hillary, how is it going today? Hilary Berning [00:00:58]: I'm good. Thanks for having me. James Kademan [00:01:00]: So let's start with the foundation here. What is Gio's Garden? Hilary Berning [00:01:03]: So Gio's Garden, so we are a respite center. We are located in Middleton, which is our original location, and we recently just opened a new location in Sun Prairie. James Kademan [00:01:11]: Nice. Hilary Berning [00:01:11]: So what we do is we provide therapeutic respite for children with special needs from ages 0 to age 7. So respite means to take a break. So it's really hard for parents of special needs kids to get a break. James Kademan [00:01:23]: Mm-hmm. Hilary Berning [00:01:23]: Because you can't just leave your special needs child with the teenager down the street. So we provide that opportunity for them to come leave their child with us and they can go and have a break. James Kademan [00:01:33]: Nice. So when you say special needs, tell me the gamut there. Hilary Berning [00:01:36]: We will see, um, everyone with, from autism to cerebral palsy to diabetes, to babies who have had strokes in utero to rare genetic disorders. We have kids with seizure disorders, so we kind of really don't say no very often. There's a few higher-grade medical needs that we can't see, like if they would have a tracheostomy or something like that. But otherwise, we don't— our motto is we don't like to say no. James Kademan [00:02:04]: Fair. And what does the care look like? Because I imagine it's not just an empty room. Hilary Berning [00:02:09]: It isn't, no. So our original location in Middleton, it's a house. It's a 100-year-old house. But we have specific rooms set up for different activities. So we have a sensory room. A lot of our kids have sensory sensory issues. So it's a quiet, subdued room where they can go and have quiet time. We have a reading room. Hilary Berning [00:02:26]: We have an arts and craft room. We have a gym that has swings that hang from the ceiling and an indoor play structure that kids can play on. Wow. Um, in Middleton, we also have outdoor, um, fenced-in yards so kids can run around and we have a place, a play structure out there as well. James Kademan [00:02:42]: Okay. I imagine you need people to be there present, right? Hilary Berning [00:02:45]: Absolutely. Yes. James Kademan [00:02:46]: It sounds like you'd need a lot. Hilary Berning [00:02:47]: We need a lot of staff. Yeah. So we provide one-on-one care. Oh, you do? Oh, wow. For every child that's in our care, they have an adult with them. James Kademan [00:02:54]: Okay. Hilary Berning [00:02:55]: So we currently have, including our executive director, 6 full-time employees. And then we have around 24 part-time employees that kind of comes and goes depending on the semester. James Kademan [00:03:06]: Okay. Hilary Berning [00:03:06]: And then we have a ton of volunteers that work with us. We are blessed to be in the Madison area where we have 3 colleges essentially that we can pull from and a lot of students who are going into medical fields or educational fields or occupational therapy or recreational therapy who need experience working with children with special needs. So we're able to provide that opportunity for them. So we're lucky that we have a large pool of students to pull from. James Kademan [00:03:33]: That's amazing. Hilary Berning [00:03:34]: But also means we have a lot of turnover and their availability changes every semester. James Kademan [00:03:38]: So that's just the nature of students. Hilary Berning [00:03:40]: It's just the nature of the, the, our staff that we work with just because we working with students, but we're blessed to have them and we, we give to them just as much as they give to us. James Kademan [00:03:50]: So nice. Hilary Berning [00:03:50]: It's really great. James Kademan [00:03:52]: So I got a lot of questions for you. Hilary Berning [00:03:53]: Nice. James Kademan [00:03:53]: So I'm gonna try to keep on task somehow. How do you let the students know that you exist even as an opportunity for them? Hilary Berning [00:04:00]: So we are on like all the job boards, like through the university and we're well connected within the different disciplines in the universities at Edgewood and at UW and at, is it Madison College? MATC? I don't— sure. James Kademan [00:04:13]: Sounds good. Hilary Berning [00:04:13]: Yeah. Yeah. So we are heavily involved in word word just kind of has gotten out about us and the people. And there's a special program, especially at UW-Madison, where they can get— part of a class credit is to volunteer at organizations. So they know about us. So they send a lot of students our way as well. James Kademan [00:04:29]: Gotcha. I imagine there's an interview process. Hilary Berning [00:04:32]: There is. Yep. There is an interview process. It's not just like, hey, come on in. Yes. There's a background check that we put all of our employees through. And it all varies depending on if you're coming in as a volunteer basis or you're coming in as a paid employee. James Kademan [00:04:44]: Okay. Hilary Berning [00:04:44]: Because your level of Um, if you're coming in as a volunteer, you're kind of paired with a full-time or part-time paid staff member, um, versus we won't just have 6 volunteers and 6 kids in the house at once. We will have paid staff to kind of help balance with that. James Kademan [00:05:01]: All right, let's talk funding. Hilary Berning [00:05:03]: Funding is— with nonprofits, yes, it is. My life revolves around funding quite a bit. James Kademan [00:05:08]: With for-profits, it's a big deal. Hilary Berning [00:05:10]: It really is. Yes. James Kademan [00:05:11]: Tell me a story. The parents of the children, are they paying? Hilary Berning [00:05:15]: They, yes and no. So when we first, when they first started opening Gio's Garden back in 2012 is when they opened their doors. It was a small subset of parents that got together and be like, we need help, we need help. We have special needs kids and there's no one to help us. So they, the idea of Gio's Garden was born. It's named after Charlotte de Lassiter. She used to be on Channel 3 News and her husband, Ron, it's their son Gio. Okay.

Monongalia County Sheriff Todd Forbes on the MONSTER pothole on I-79 southbound at MM 148.5Josh Brady and John Helmick from the Department of Mining and Industrial Extension on theirlatest competition in Canada, training the U.S. Border Patrol, and the future of the program. The 72nd Mountaineer Reese Allen Marion County Schools superintendent Donna Heston on her contract situation. 

Kiera is joined by Derick Van Ness of Big Life Financial to talk about taxes, and how to handle them beyond simply thinking of them as a necessary evil. The pair discuss knowing your numbers, utilizing tax credits, the magic touch of a CPA, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team Listeners, this is Kiera. And today I am super excited. This is one of our top favorite guests that has been on the podcast. We're bringing him back on because there are some new updates and our clients love him. I love him. He is incredible. Derick Van Ness, he is with Big Life Financial. And you might have heard him on the podcast before talking about R &D credits, tax saving ideas, CPA.   This man does a lot of your wealth and how to build and keep your wealth. So I always love our conversations and just like his good information. Plus, if I remember right, he might know Garrett Gunderson. So obviously I've been a fangirl since day one. Derick, welcome back to the show. How are you today?   Derick Van Ness (00:42) Well, I'm doing great and really happy to be here with you, Kiera. I'm not Garrett Gunderson because he is taller and better looking, but I'm a good second place.   The Dental A Team (00:48) Ha ha ha!   I think that you're great. The fact that you know Garrett Gunderson, that already just has elevated you. I mean, I think it was one of our first conversations we ever had. And I was like, have you ever read like Killing Sacred Cows? And you're like, I actually know Garrett Gunderson. I was like, what? Fangirling. So ⁓ anyway, Derick, for those who have not met you, haven't heard your episode, because we do have new listeners to the podcast. Just kind of give them a little intro of who is Derick Bennis? What is Big Life Financial? And give the listeners a little intro to who you are.   Derick Van Ness (01:20) Okay, well outside of being ⁓ in love with my wife, in love with art and in love with racing sailboats, what I do professionally is I help ⁓ doctors and dentists to be smarter with their money. So what does that mean? That means how do you, not so much to make it, I mean we do help people scale, but once you make the money, which is something a lot of dentists are good at, how do you keep it through tax savings? How do you grow it and how do you protect it, right?   And today we're going to talk a little bit about how do you keep more what you make? Because honestly, for dentists, even though taxes seem boring when you don't have to write that $50,000 or $100,000 or $200,000 check, it gets a lot cooler. If you would have told me I'd be a tax and financial guy when I was a kid, I probably would have just taken an early exit somewhere and jumped off a bridge. But I really see money in what we do as a lifestyle business. It's not about money.   The Dental A Team (02:01) Yeah.   Derick Van Ness (02:17) If you have enough, then money is what it is. When you don't have enough, it's a problem. And I just find for a lot of people, it's the reason or excuse that they constrain themselves. They don't spend time with family. They don't think do things that they want to do. They don't have the experiences that are going to change their life. So when we can get money out of the way, then you can live your big life, which is why the company's big life financial, because it doesn't matter if you have more or less money. The question is, what's the life you're living? What's your quality of life?   And so taxes are a big piece of that. Obviously we can't talk about everything on a podcast like this, because you'd be buried under a ton of bricks. But that's what I do is I try to make this stuff easy. I try to make it fun. And I want you to realize that the whole point of all this money stuff is so that you can live a life you want to   The Dental A Team (02:55) You   Which Derick, that's why we have connected. You have met my husband. have had personal conversations outside of the podcast because I very much align and subscribe to this lifestyle and this mode of thinking. I believe that practices should work for us and us not work for our practices. I believe that we became business owners to have these big lives and these, audacious dreams. And yet I feel so many people live below their, their potential. They are trapped. They are.   Derick Van Ness (03:33) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (03:34) It's crazy. I ⁓ had a client and she actually made so much money last year, which was amazing because the year before she was like, Kiera, I want to make more. So I was like, great, we're going after profit and production like blinders on. Don't talk to me about anything else. And she had like a crazy year and she's like, great. Now I have this huge check. I've got to write in taxes. And I was like, not my problem. Like you need better CPA help on that, but glad we made you the money. But I bring that up because one, it was a huge win for a client, but two,   Derick Van Ness (03:52) I don't know.   Yep.   The Dental A Team (04:02) I think that people being able to keep the money that they make, hold on to more money that they make. Like I love that we live in America and it's a free country and that we get to pay taxes. Like I'm so freaking grateful for that. With that said, I do not want to pay one penny more than I need to. And I want to maintain and keep as much as I possibly can to live the life I want and to not feel the guilt of being a successful business owner and to do the fun things that I always imagined and dreamed of doing without the guilt of doing it. And I think so many people are so scared of.   Derick Van Ness (04:11) Yep.   The Dental A Team (04:32) being financially free, they're scared to spend money. They get hit with tax burdens left and right. I can't tell you how many dentists that I hear at the end of their career and they've had great careers, but they have no financial stability. like, Derick, this is the stuff that stresses me out and keeps me up at night and which is why you're on the podcast because I want people to be smarter. want them to be more educated and I want them to live happier lives. So let's walk through like R and D credits and CPA and like how people can live a more enriched   Derick Van Ness (04:33) Mm-hmm.   Yep.   The Dental A Team (05:02) big life today rather than waiting. I think it's just a fun topic to talk about. I'm intrigued, so let's talk about it.   Derick Van Ness (05:07) Yeah   Well, let's do. mean, we can start generally with taxes and then we can kind of move into the credits piece because it is like a it's just a small very segmented piece of what you do with your taxes. overall, the biggest thing I see is most people see taxes as like a necessary evil. This is the thing I have to deal with. When people see something as a necessary evil, what do they do? They do the minimum. Right. And what that really turns into is   You're not talking with your CPA. You're not coordinating with them. You're not being proactive. At the end of the year, you just want to do the least. So you just hand them all your stuff. I realize people don't come in boxes anymore. Now it's like, here's my QuickBooks password. Or I add you to my account. ⁓ And then they tell you how much you owe. But if you ran your business that way, if you just didn't look at anything all year, and at the end of the year, you're like, I wonder how we did. Wouldn't go so well if you didn't talk to your team about anything. What's that?   The Dental A Team (06:01) People do that though, Derick. They do it all the   time. This is not abnormal. They do it all the time. They're like, my gosh, I owe how much? my gosh, we didn't hit goal. And I'm like, ⁓ let's at least look at our numbers. Like that's step one. Step two, let's talk to our team. You're not wrong. I'm just shocked at how many people do this in real life. And I'm like, hey, there's a different way of living. like, maybe let's take that path. Just try it out. It's like t-shirt. Try that one on. It might feel better than your current oversized, like two baggy of clothes that don't fit. And then you're angry.   Derick Van Ness (06:11) I know.   The Dental A Team (06:30) the time. anyway go on didn't mean to interrupt the rant.   Derick Van Ness (06:32) What if I'm gonna be   a Gen Z VSCO girl? I I want the Oversight T-shirt and the angst.   The Dental A Team (06:36) Well, as I said it, as I   said it, I was like, well, that's like the current style. Like what's uncomfortable clothing? Maybe it's like the wool scratchy. I just came back from Iceland and I'll tell you what, I didn't buy a single shirt there. I was like, that is gonna scratch me. I know it's warm, but I'm not wearing that for the rest of time. Like there are softer clothes in this world that are equally as warm. Like I'll choose that. So that maybe you're wearing a wool scratchy sweater. Cause you never look at your numbers. You're always irritable. You're always angry.   Maybe you might get the oversized hoodie that's way more comfy. Maybe that's the better analogy for today.   Derick Van Ness (07:07) Well, and so you help them look at their numbers, right? What's your P &L? What are your KPIs? There are tax numbers too, right? Like I'm usually meeting with clients in September-ish to say, OK, how much have you made so far this year? What does that put us on track for December 31st? And then we have November, I'm sorry, September, October, November, December to do things to get that number at the end where you want it to be. I'm not talking about go out and spend $1.   to save $0.40, right? People do that. Oh, go buy a car. If you don't need a car, that's just a waste of money. I literally had someone who's like, should I just buy a G-Wagon? I'm like, only if you were going to buy a G-Wagon anyway. They want the tax break, but.   The Dental A Team (07:45) I mean, I asked that question too.   I mean, I do. I do ask it as well, but it's unnecessary. You're right. Like, so I can repel you you're not going to do it. Don't just because you get the tax benefit. You just have to pay the money. So, but I do ask because I want to know, just tell me I can buy the boat, Derick.   Derick Van Ness (07:58) Yeah.   Well, boats are totally different. They're way more fun, but they're also way more expensive to maintain. So I love boats. I absolutely do. But they are not cheap, right? As the saying goes, break out another 1,000. That's what boat stands for. Just go to the ocean and throw $1,000 in it every month. That's what owning a boat's like if you don't use it.   The Dental A Team (08:05) They are not. I know.   gosh, I've never heard that.   That's hilarious.   That's hilarious. I've heard like the best day and worst day of owning a boat is the day you buy it and the day you sell it. Like that's the only best days. I have a boat. I do love the boat. It is an older boat. things I'm not... Maybe mine's like break out a 10 because we've got a much older boat. But like, know, when we upgrade then we'll be in the thousand realm. ⁓   Derick Van Ness (08:28) So.   Yep.   Yeah.   Yes, yes. So boats are great. Not usually the best tax strategy. But the big thing here is when you sail a boat or when you drive a car, I heard this the other day and I thought it was perfect. It's like when you drive a car, what's bigger, the windshield or the rear view mirror? Most people are doing taxes in the rear view mirror. That is not about your expansive future. That's about recording your past, right? And so if you just did business planning one year at a time,   Like you wouldn't ever buy the building. You wouldn't ever invest in the equipment. You wouldn't ever invest in the education, right? It's the same thing for taxes. It is part of a cohesive and ongoing plan. ⁓ so when you want to plan that, we have to look into the future. And so looking into the future allows you to control your income, control your expenses. But you have to know your numbers to your point, right? Like if you don't understand a P &L,   It's really hard to do tax work because we don't know what your income is. And I have some clients who come in that way. And I have to really get them to understand that if you don't have good books, you don't have good data, it's like trying to do dentistry without a diagnostic. You just go in and start drilling teeth to see what's happening. No, you wouldn't do dentistry that way. Don't do that way with your taxes either. should I just buy this and I'll just buy that and randomly and I help those work out?   Your P &L is really like your diagnostic, right? Both on the income side, but also that's related to taxes. And so I think the big thing for people is think of taxes as an additional income stream. If you do this right, you can keep, like a lot of dentists pay 40 % or more in taxes, right? So if we can cut that from 40 down to 20 to 25 % on average, that's 15 % straight to your bottom line.   And it probably takes an average of two hours a month at most, which is pretty good, right? Like if you could add a new service into your business, no employees, no marketing, no overhead, two hours a month, but profits went up by 15%, would you take it? Most dentists would say, yeah, that six figures is pretty good.   The Dental A Team (10:53) As long as I'm not going to jail, Derick,   I don't want to go to jail. That's my only line. Like, how is this legal? Because so many people talk about tax strategy and my line is I'm willing to live in the gray, I'm just not willing to go to jail. So how do you go from 40 to 20 that's legal and ethical?   Derick Van Ness (11:01) you   Yeah, we don't want to go to jail.   Yeah, so there's two things. There are lots of little things. So research and development credits, which we'll get to in a minute, is one of those things. It's not little. I would call it a medium thing. For a lot of dentists, it's worth between $10, depending on the size of your clinic, $10,000 $50,000 a year. So it's sizable. And then there's all the pay your kids, cost segregation, salary and dividends, all that kind of stuff. And those things stack up. If you pay your kids right, then that can save you   The Dental A Team (11:21) I agree, I would too.   Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (11:40) 10, 15 grand if you're in a state where you can pay your state taxes and have a federal write-off that might save you 10, 15, 20 thousand dollars a year. Taking a salary, the proper salary versus dividends that might save you another 10 or 15 thousand. So these things start to stack up but when you're in that 500,000 plus tax bracket there are things like and I can't totally get into details because this is stuff for accredited investors and I don't know who the listeners are and all that but there are   Investments you can make that have big tax breaks, right? And that could be everything from energy types of things to short-term rentals, different types of real estate. There's a lot of different stuff, right? So that sort of depends on what's the life you want to build and aligning that. ⁓ There are lots of charitable and donation type strategies where you can create some really big tax breaks. There's entity structuring, ⁓ where you take your income and how you take your income matters.   So you can really layer all of this stuff and make huge chunks, take huge chunks out of your business. The bigger you are, the bigger you can do with these things. And honestly, once you get over a million plus in income, then there's another layer of stuff you can do. It's just a lot of times the setup costs, you have to have enough tax burden to make it worth it. But there's some really neat stuff out there. And some of the stuff with the big, beautiful bill. ⁓   bringing back bonus depreciation. There's some really neat things where, oh, if you do a solar thing, you can get some credits, but then you can also get all the depreciation in the first year. And so you put in $100,000 into this type of investment. You may not make a lot of money, but you might get $150,000, $175,000, $200,000 worth of write-offs on your taxes. And when I say write-offs, mean dollars you don't pay, like true credit dollar for dollar. That could be huge, right? Things like that.   The Dental A Team (13:10) Yes.   Right.   Derick Van Ness (13:38) that a lot of people are just unaware of. And don't take that as an investment advice. I'm just telling you about things that exist in the world that may or may not be for you. Check with your financial professional. But yeah, you start stacking all these things up and you go from, I wrote $150,000 check to, I wrote a $60,000 check. And then what I like to do is help people take that 90 grand you would have given to the government. And now let's add that to what you would already save. And for a lot of people, that's   The Dental A Team (13:47) That's amazing.   Derick Van Ness (14:07) a lot more than they were already saving. So we more than doubled their savings rate. And the fastest thing you can do to build wealth is just get more money into the equation. So that's really it is we're trying to create money that you can then put to work for you outside your business. Because what nobody ever tells you is, even if you're an amazing dentist and you make all this money and you sell your practice for top dollar, and you get all that money, you become a professional investor.   The Dental A Team (14:27) you   Derick Van Ness (14:36) And if you don't have any investment skills, if you don't know how to put that money to work, if you don't know how to protect it, you're just a lamb to the slaughter. You know, everybody shows up, they got an idea. Your brother-in-law wants to start a coffee shop or a brewery. Your neighbor has the next best tech app. And all of a sudden, all this money just starts disappearing because you're not seasoned. So one of the things we like to do is get people doing these types of investments, learning, getting a skill set around it so that when you do get that big   big shot when you sell your business or you have those huge tax or those huge years and you don't pay all the taxes, you know what to do with the money. Because that's a whole different skill set than running a dental clinic.   The Dental A Team (15:17) I don't disagree. And that's why Derick, I love having you on here. And I think your comment of the goal is to get more money to put into the equation. What are the things like, I have 90 grand or I have 150. What are some of those investments that, again, realize that we're being generic and there's a reason you have to be generic is because there are rules that financial planners, advisors, CPAs have to abide by. in general terms, Derick, what are some of the ways that   Derick Van Ness (15:25) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (15:45) you found to generate higher levels of wealth? We're putting more money into the equation, but what's the equation that's going to get it? And again, I know this is very, I would say like vanilla. We're just talking very much basic.   Derick Van Ness (15:56) Yeah, yeah, I'll just   give you the principles, right? The philosophy behind it. One of the things is we always, all of our lives we've heard diversify your assets. Diversify, diversify, diversify.   The Dental A Team (16:06) all weather portfolio, Ray Dalio, right? Like you got to get it everything, have it all. What is it like? think eight uncorrelated assets or something like that is what it should be. Anyway, there you go. Okay.   Derick Van Ness (16:09) Yep.   8 to 16 non-correlated asset   classes. Yep. And the idea here is this. It used to be that you could put your money in the stock market. And each individual stock did its thing based on what its performance was. Since the late 90s, early 2000s, everything's kind of gotten grouped together. Almost everybody just buys the S &P 500 or just buys index funds, which is basically the whole market.   And so if you look at the top five stocks, which are usually the Google, Apple, Tesla, Nvidia, depending on one or two others, ⁓ whatever they're doing is usually what the market's doing, right? It all has a tendency to ebb and flow together because it's all been chunked together. So I don't see those all as different asset classes anymore. How I personally invest, I'm not saying you need to buy into my ideas, but so you can have money there. But then I do think you want to have money in other things.   that maybe aren't tied to the stock market. Maybe you've got some oil and gas. Maybe you've got some farming communities in Central America. Maybe you've got someone who's doing senior living homes, someone who's developing all these empty office buildings. And they're all tied to different things. So that way, if the stock market takes a dump and goes down, that's not all your portfolio. Maybe it's 15 or 20%.   if real estate takes a hit. Yeah, your real estate takes a hit, but maybe something else does well. Having things in your portfolio that if some of them struggle during inflation, some of them do well during inflation, right? Things like gold that holds its value. And so the idea is to be able to put your money to work in a way where it's in a bunch of different buckets that aren't all tied to the same thing. And what that really creates is stability, right? And why that's so important is when you're growing your money,   The Dental A Team (17:46) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (18:09) You can have the ups and downs a little bit, but when you go to start pulling money out, the volatility, the ups and downs are what really kill your ability to pull money out, because you have to always protect against the downside. And it's why if you look at the market historically, it'll go up, depending on who you ask, 6 to 8%. But when you're pulling money out of the stock market in retirement, the numbers say sustainably over the long term, you can only pull 3 to 4%. Why is that? You would think, ⁓ I can pull.   The Dental A Team (18:21) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Derick Van Ness (18:38) six to eight, but it's three to four because of the volatility. If you are counting on that, it crashes that year and you sell. Then when the market recovers, you have less money to recover with. And over time that stacks up. So the idea there is to work with someone who has the ability to put you into different asset classes, help educate you. This also gives you a chance to try different things. So you can start to get that seasoning we were talking about and learn how money really works because   The Dental A Team (18:43) Right.   Derick Van Ness (19:09) You know, money, health and relationships are the three things that really dictate the quality of your life. And it's funny, we don't spend a lot of time in them in school, right? And so, ⁓ so it's something you have to learn, just like if you don't learn how to take care of your health, you suffer. If you don't learn how to have good relationships, you suffer. And money is another thing. All of those you can get help with, but at the end of the day, you have to be able to be competent enough.   to get the results you want. And money is just one of those things.   The Dental A Team (19:40) Yeah. No, Derick, that's a, think it's such a good way to look at it. And I will say, I was very much a baby investor and I think I still would qualify myself as pretty naive. But it is, they say like, I don't know, what is it? The eighth wonder of the world is compound interest. And it's crazy because when you start out and you just get started on your investments, it feels like this is stupid. At least I have, I've so told many financial advisors, feel like they like,   Derick Van Ness (20:04) Mm.   The Dental A Team (20:07) money monster. So it's like the cookie monster. Like I give my money to you. I never can get it back. I have no clue how to access this money. And then you start to see it and you're like, wow, that started to compound and this started to become different. And we had our first year with it. We didn't have to write such a large check to the IRS and done legally and ethically. And I was like, wow, this is a very different world that I'm living in than I have been. And it wasn't as hard as I thought. And so I, like you said, I do feel like you're   Derick Van Ness (20:11) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (20:33) comfort level and they do say that women tend to be better investors than men because women, we just put money in, we give it to you. We're like, here you go. We don't ever like go check it and watch the stocks. Stocks. Whereas men are like, cons I'm like looking at those stocks, like my husband checks it like 10 times a day. And I'm like, just don't even look at it. Like I don't even, it's the cookie monster, the money monster. You take the money. I know you haven't like taken it. People get angry with me. They're like, Kiera, we can't legally take your money. And I'm like, no, but I just have no clue how to access it. They're like you email. And I'm like, I know.   Derick Van Ness (20:44) Right.   Yep. In your brain, right?   The Dental A Team (21:02) but it like stocks and then I got to pay taxes and I don't understand any of it. But I will say, I think it's like PNLs, the language of money, the language of investing. It's a skill that you are learning. And I do agree, the younger you can learn this, the more time you have to recover if you make mistakes and versus having to be perfect later on in life. So I really very much subscribe to your model of thinking. And I love that. I love that you've talked about taxes, how to save, how to get it into   Derick Van Ness (21:11) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (21:31) Again, I remember I sat in a Tony Robbins wealth mastery thing. Ray Dalio was in the room. had no clue who half like Paul Tudor Jones. I think that's his name. Like so freaking smart. I had no clue who these people were. And like here you've got like five billionaires sitting in the room with us. And I was like, I had no clue. And they start talking about this stuff. And I feel like an idiot, but I will say it's an idiot that I love to be because the more I learn about the more I'm involved in it, the more you expose yourself, the more you learn how it works.   Derick Van Ness (21:38) John Paul Tudor, yeah.   Yeah, I remember.   The Dental A Team (22:00) And I think like what you're saying, Derick, I just hope people talk to your financial advisors, get your uncorrelated assets, start building that portfolio because time, like they say, you only have so much time and the best time to plant a tree was like a hundred years ago. The next best time is today. And I just, I don't want to be that person when it comes to my portfolio where I wish I would have started. All of us will wish we started sooner, but I am grateful that we started as young as we were and are building it the way we have versus   Derick Van Ness (22:23) Yes.   The Dental A Team (22:28) waiting until like, and I don't care if you haven't started then start today. If you've been doing it, figure out how you can do more. ⁓ But I think Derick, I have a question of, I always live in scarcity. So what do you tell a client like myself where I'm always afraid that I'm going to run out of money. I don't know where it comes from. It doesn't matter how much I have. I have acorns upon acorns upon acorns. I swear like you've probably can find money in my couch. I'm not that bad. I don't have it in the couch, but like,   Derick Van Ness (22:32) Yep.   The Dental A Team (22:54) How do you get to a level where you feel comfortable spending money rather than just always saving for retirement and not living today? What's the balance of that?   Derick Van Ness (23:03) Yeah, so what I've discovered working with over 2,500 people on all of this, Kiera, is like money problems don't like quote unquote go away. They just change. In the beginning, it's like, how do I make money? I don't have enough money. How do I manage the car payment or whatever? Then you make a little bit more and you're like, okay, now I'm past survival. Like, how do I start to grow? Right? So you invest in yourself, your business, your education, whatever. Then you start to grow some more.   Then you start saying, okay, now I'm growing and I'm making money and I'm living a decent life, but how do I build for the future? So it's not just the now, then it's the future, right? And then what happens is you definitely get to a point, at least I've seen this for myself and a lot of clients is you start to make a good amount of money and the problem becomes how do I make sure that this doesn't ever go away?   Right? Like now I'm living this really good life and I can travel and I can spend time with family and I can do the things that I want to do. And I can buy nice clothes or go to nice dinner or do nice things for my kids or whatever your thing is. And I don't have to think about money. But then there's this fear of like, what if I lose that? Right. And going back. And so the money problems just change. I believe it's an instinct that's built into us. Like the monkeys that ate bananas and then just stopped worrying and didn't hoard them.   ended up dying faster than the ones that hoarded them, right? And so, like, I think it's an instinct to be paranoid, to be fear-driven, and that's where we have to, as humans, understand our wiring and say, my wiring is for survival, not for happiness and fulfillment, right? Because survival is what reproduced. Happiness and fulfillment, especially in a scary world of survival, ⁓ doesn't do very well.   The Dental A Team (24:27) Sure.   Derick Van Ness (24:52) Right? So, so we have to try to rewire our brain as much as we can. ⁓ And I think the biggest thing is to focus on a big future, a big vision. When you're moving towards something, then you're not focused on moving away from something. When you're in fear, you're, moving away from something. I'm moving away from failure. I'm moving. I'm trying to avoid losing money. I'm trying to avoid running out, trying to avoid making a mistake. You know, this about business ownership, like you can't avoid the mistakes. You just try and minimize them.   and learn from them as fast as you can. Like making mistakes is part of success and nobody says it that way, but I think it's really, really important to get that. And when you're moving towards something, you're in abundance, you're in striving, you're in goal oriented, whatever your thing is. And that doesn't have to be about money. That could be, I wanna be a great parent. I wanna get in better health. I wanna have more free time and make the same money.   So this isn't like just a money conversation, but when you're moving toward those, you have a tendency to lose your fear. I think it's when we aren't sure where to go next that we get afraid of losing ground and we do that. And so I think sometimes it's just a matter of clarity and reminding yourself, where do I want to go? What am I building? Like once you get past a certain point, like, you know, once you get past a certain amount of income or a certain amount of wealth, it's not about money anymore.   Right. It's really about contribution. It's about impact. And I think when we, our mind can really only focus on one thing at a time, especially as men, ⁓ women are much better at seeing the big picture. ⁓ But, but really when you're focused on something that holds your attention and then it doesn't drift to some of the other stuff as much, it doesn't mean you won't. Cause I'll tell you, I'm at my most vulnerable when I wake up in the morning and my brain starts doing payroll and all these other things. And like you said,   The Dental A Team (26:26) you   Derick Van Ness (26:47) I have enough cash stored away that I could not make a dollar for a year and still pay for my whole business and do the whole thing and be fine. But that doesn't mean that that instinctual part of me doesn't freak out for a minute until I come in and say, hey, we're building massive things. We're changing people's lives. Let's just focus on that and let the rest take care of itself. That really is the best thing for me is to focus on where I'm going, not where I'm afraid I might end up.   The Dental A Team (27:15) Absolutely. I   think that was good. Good wisdom there. You are the person, if you guys have heard me talk about it on the podcast, this came from Derick. He's the one who's told me it's a return on emotion, not necessarily a return on investment and like what helps you sleep at night, what helps you stay there. And I love that you talked about like it is a survival instinct. It's not a bad instinct. so loving that side, but also tempering it so that way we can enjoy the fulfillment. And again, I also think that there becomes confidence in yourself. I think enough.   enough business crashes, enough mistakes, enough things where you come back from it also teach you that there's certainty within yourself that no matter what comes your way, ⁓ you know that you'll be able to survive it, you'll be able to come. Someone told me once, it's not unsafe, it's just uncomfortable. Unless someone's running at you with like a knife and it's truly life threatening, it's like if the stock market crashes, that's like we're still safe, it's just going to be pretty dang uncomfortable for a little bit. If we become bankrupt,   Derick Van Ness (27:47) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (28:13) We're not unsafe, we're just uncomfortable. And that has given me a lot of, I think, temperance on when you think about finances, like that'd be uncomfortable, but I am still safe and I would still be alive and we can come back and we can figure things out. So Derick, I know we wanted to pivot gears and talk R &D credits, because this is something that's new. yeah, let's kind of chat that because I think we've gone through tax strategy, building wealth mindset around ⁓ how to maintain and have that.   Derick Van Ness (28:30) Well, yeah, we'll keep it short here.   The Dental A Team (28:42) return on emotion and building those skills. And I really love that you just said money issues don't ever go away, they just change shape. And I think that that's the same as business, right? Business problems just become a different flavor and different color. ⁓ But now let's talk about like some R &D credits because we've talked about R &D. I've seen several clients do very well on R &D credits. So was excited to hear like, they're back and they're back again, and they look a little different. So I'm excited to hear if you guys don't know what they are, Derick will definitely explain them and how you can.   Derick Van Ness (29:02) Yep.   The Dental A Team (29:08) Dental practices are ripe for the picking of R &D, it's exciting to have a resource for dental practices.   Derick Van Ness (29:15) Yeah, dental practices really are because the R &D credits are designed when you do new things in your business that are based in technology. And that could be computer science, engineering, biological science, or physical science, like chemistry, ⁓ which dentists are doing all of that stuff. So when you do new stuff in your business, the government realizes you're taking a risk. You're trying a new implant system. You're trying a new ⁓   a new type of diagnostic, you're trying a new flow for your patients, whatever. Sometimes it blows up in your face. I everybody listening here has tried a new piece of software and after six weeks you wanted to throw the computer out the window and you're like, we're going back to the other one, we got to find something else, right? ⁓ Or we tried 3D printing and it was just really, really hard and like some people love it, some people hate it. But at the end of the day, every time you take that risk, the government knows that you could lose money.   The Dental A Team (29:57) Totally.   Derick Van Ness (30:11) So the R &D credits are really their effort to say, don't stop innovating. Don't stop trying to get better. We know you're going to take some skin, knees, and elbows along the way. And we're willing to give you some credits to help with that. so ⁓ dentists, like dentistry is moving so fast. I don't have to tell the listeners that. There's new stuff every single quarter, every single year. Five years ago, everybody was getting crowns to be milled. Now they're 3D printing teeth and doing all, you know.   digital scans and all the other stuff and pretty quick here, think we have robots doing surgery. I don't necessarily want to be the first person to try that, but.   The Dental A Team (30:45) Yeah, me neither. I'm like number   like 200,000. I'll try it at that point. I'm usually like number two jumping off a cliff if the first person's alive, then I'll jump. Unlike innovative robots, I only have 28 teeth left, so I'll just let them practice a bit more before they come to me. It's okay. Stick with the drill and fill. Yeah, the drill and fill, I'm okay with it. It's all right. It's better.   Derick Van Ness (30:51) Yeah.   Yeah.   Yep.   I'll just pay a little more for the people.   Yes. so effectively, most dentists just don't realize they're qualifying for these credits. And so what we try to help them do is we do a free estimate to help you understand, OK, let's go through the different things that you did in your practice. It takes maybe a half an hour to identify the different things you've done. And right now, there's a window. And this is why we wanted to talk about this today, that closes on the 4th of July of 2026. So we've got about three or four months left.   where you can go back and you can file for 2022, 2023, and 2024. I don't want to bore everybody, but effectively when they did the 2017 tax rewrite, the first Trump tax rewrite, it broke the R &D credits in 2022. You could file for them, but the downside was bigger than the upside, so it wasn't worth doing. Now, they kind of did that on purpose to balance the budget, and they thought, oh, we'll change it before 2022, and then COVID happened, so they never changed it.   So it got broken. So they came back and they fixed it and said, hey, you guys can go back and claim this, but you really only have until the 4th of July. So they gave us one year to do it. ⁓ And so it's a big opportunity, a big window right now where you can get three years worth of credit. So you can literally go back. The government will send you a check for taxes you've overpaid, and you can get that money back. I won't tell you the IRS is really fast at processing this stuff, but they do get to all of them.   The Dental A Team (32:23) Wow.   No.   Derick Van Ness (32:34) And the checks come in, and we've done over 1,000 of these for clients. So it's definitely a legit thing. And the credits have been around since the 80s. They became a permanent part of the tax code in 2015. So they were kind of new. They've been around about 10 years. But the first couple of years, nobody knew. then over the last couple of years, they've become more and more popular. But then they kind of screwed them up in 22 through 24. So the reason I wanted to talk about them is if somebody is a dentist, they're not claiming these credits. But they are doing.   The Dental A Team (32:38) Wow.   Derick Van Ness (33:04) Innovative things upgrading equipment trying new software trying new techniques new implant systems new Diagnostics, whatever you probably got all these credits sitting there. You don't know about and It's worth getting a free estimate to see what's on the table. Yes You do have to amend your taxes, which is a very small pain in the butt But your total time into this should be an hour or two, which is really a short conversation You send over tax returns ⁓ A team like ours would give you an estimate   And if it seems like it's worth doing it, then you do it. You just let them do their thing and you write the check for the fee, right? So it's pretty hard to beat bang for your buck hour for hour. And like I said, for a lot of practices, it's between 1 to 2 % of your gross revenue. This is not a quote. This is just like what I've generally seen. So if you have a million dollar practice, it's probably 10 to 20 grand a year if you're doing these types of things. I mean, I have some. We just did a doctor who's got   Six offices they're getting almost a half a million dollars back right it can be it can be major and Doesn't take him any longer than to take someone with one office so you know it's it's just a big window of opportunity that I wanted to try and squeeze in here and People who haven't done this or unaware. It's like hey, we got a big opportunity and you can do this for 2025 moving forward every year. It's it's back indefinitely and so my hope is   The Dental A Team (34:07) It's incredible.   Derick Van Ness (34:32) People can do the catch up. And then from here forward, you don't even have to amend. You just party your tax return. You just don't pay the taxes. Just like you depreciate equipment or anything else and just get the tax break, the difference is tax credits are dollar for dollar. So if you get $10,000 tax credit, it's just $10,000 you don't pay in taxes, not a $10,000 write off, which might be worth $3,000 or $4,000.   The Dental A Team (34:40) awesome.   Mm-hmm.   Totally. No, and I think Derick, I'm so glad you brought this up. And at first I was creeped out by you. I'm not going to lie. Like when you first started talking about it, was like, are these like, I don't know, what are they called? The opportunity zones. And like, I heard a lot of people got their shorts burned on those. And I was like, do I even put this on the podcast? But I will say, Derick just said he's done thousands of them. They have had great success. I have seen clients tell me, thank you. So that's why I wanted Derick to come on because any client that comes from Dental A Team does get preferred.   Derick Van Ness (35:03) you   huh.   The Dental A Team (35:26) I don't know treatment. don't know what you guys do, but I do know that there's, ⁓ you guys get, you just said you get pushed to the front of line. If you mentioned you heard on Dental A Team podcast, we also have a link with big life financial. I'm pretty sure Derick, if I remember right, I'm pretty sure we do. ⁓ but definitely wanted you guys to have that, especially with a closing in July. And it's something where I love that Derick will just like, he's met with me and my husband several times to talk about multiple things. Derick is non pushy. And I appreciate that about you, Derick. You ⁓ educate.   Derick Van Ness (35:27) Treatment, yep, yep, front of the line.   We do. Yep.   The Dental A Team (35:56) and then give people the information and then you're to make the decisions on your own. So I think like, why not? Why not reach out to Derick? Why not just like see what it looks like? And then you have their resources. They're not going to file unless you want them to. You don't have to break up with your CPA if they file for you. I'm pretty sure. Is that right? Like you don't have to switch.   Derick Van Ness (36:09) Correct.   No, no, yeah,   you don't have to. We can amend it for you. But in a lot of cases, it makes sense to just have your CPA do it. They've got all your information. So but we can handle it either way.   The Dental A Team (36:25) So I think like on that, I just feel it's very much worthwhile. And I know Big Life Financial does a lot. do. I'll let you like take it because I know you guys are added to more services. But I think like if nothing else, we want to have the call to action of like, just look into the R &D credits. Like I said, I have seen multiple checks go to practices. They have not been audited. ⁓ Things have gone very smoothly for them. I was skittish. But I mean, Derick, we've been talking about this, I don't know, almost five years now, if not longer, that we've been telling practices about it. So.   Derick Van Ness (36:52) Yep.   The Dental A Team (36:54) very excited, but Derick, kind of tell about the makeup of what Big Life Financial is and then how people can reach out to you, especially in particular to the R &D credits.   Derick Van Ness (37:04) Yeah, so for the R &D credits, just go to, it's just BigLifeFinancial.com So BigLifeFinancial.com/DAT D-A-T right? Dental A Team. And all you got to do is just set up a time there to talk with myself or someone on my team. It's like a 15 minute call. And we'll just screen it, see if it makes sense. Beyond that, we do offer full service taxes if for some reason you're looking for tax breaks or you feel like you're, for one reason or another, you need to make a change.   then we can do that. We do also work with an RIA. So if you're looking for some of these investments that might have tax breaks or other diversification or whatever, we have those capabilities as well. So we really try to be front to back like what we call like a family office or a fractional family office, which is what the super rich people have. They just have an attorney and a CPA and a   Uh, an insurance guy, an investment guy, or probably 10 investment guys who all just work for them. Obviously most people can't afford to have an entire team that just works for them. So we work with a limited number of people, but we have a coordinated team that way. And, and it's taken me like 10 years to find the right people to do that. That's, that's really it because the Uber wealthy have those people, the people who are making 50 or a hundred thousand bucks a year, they don't need it. We really work in this sweet spot where a lot of people make.   300,000 400,000 on the low end to 2 3 million on the high end. And they're kind of in between, not rich enough to have the team that's all working together all the time, but rich enough that you really need it. Like this segment of the population is the one that just gets crushed on taxes. ⁓ And so we're really doing our best to help minimize that. So that's why we work so much with dentists and doctors.   The Dental A Team (38:56) That's amazing. I love that Derick. And I think for everybody, it was BigLifeFinancial.com slash DAT. We'll be sure to like link that in the show notes and also add it for you guys. But, and Derick, love, I didn't know what a family office was at first. And then I found out hanging out with a lot of wealthy people, what it is. And so for you to provide that, think worth conversations ⁓ and definitely appreciate the insights today. It was a really fun episode. I'm glad we got back together. It's been too long. ⁓ And like truly guys, just reach out.   Again, I would do it as exploration. would do it as like, just find out anytime I hear things like this, I just go book meetings. It doesn't mean I need to actually execute on it. But I think again, learning the language of business, learning the education, seeing if it fills right for you. Now you can ask a million people, but like I said, Derick and I have been doing this for about five years and every client that has been referred to Big Life Financial has gone through, has told me how much they've been grateful for it. So Derick, I appreciate you. Any last wrap up thoughts today as we wrap up today? I appreciate our time so much today together.   Derick Van Ness (39:55) No, I think it's just understanding that part of building wealth is beyond just making income, right? Just making income won't build the life you want to live. Once you earn the money, you got to take care of it. And there's a lot of pieces to that. So whether it's with us or someone else, just take that on for your family's sake. It's not just about making it. It's keeping it and being smarter with it. And if you do that, you're going to be in good hands.   The Dental A Team (40:20) amazing. Well, Derick, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you all for listening. I love what Derick said, like it's not just enough to make the money, we need to figure out how to keep the money and set yourselves up for the great lives that you've been building and to truly have that big life as Derick has described it. So for all of you listening, I hope that today you don't just passively listen, but you actively take action and commit to having the wealth of your life, the wealth of your dreams to have that life that really ⁓   is the life of your dreams. there's a quote from my mirror from when I was little where I said, don't just dream, do. And I think that that's how I'll leave you today. So for all of you listening, thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.

The reception to our recent post on Code Reviews has been strong. Catch up!Amid a maelstrom of discussion on whether or not AI is killing SaaS, one of the top publicly listed SaaS companies in the world has just reported record revenues, clearing well over $1.1B in ARR for the first time with a 28% margin. As we comment on the pod, Aaron Levie is the rare public company CEO equally at home in both worlds of Silicon Valley and Wall Street/Main Street, by day helping 70% of the Fortune 500 with their Enterprise Advanced Suite, and yet by night is often found in the basements of early startups and tweeting viral insights about the future of agents.Now that both Cursor, Cloudflare, Perplexity, Anthropic and more have made Filesystems and Sandboxes and various forms of “Just Give the Agent a Box” cool (not just cool; it is now one of the single hottest areas in AI infrastructure growing 100% MoM), we find it a delightfully appropriate time to do the episode with the OG CEO who has been giving humans and computers Boxes since he was a college dropout pitching VCs at a Michael Arrington house party.Enjoy our special pod, with fan favorite returning guest/guest cohost Jeff Huber!Note: We didn't directly discuss the AI vs SaaS debate - Aaron has done many, many, many other podcasts on that, and you should read his definitive essay on it. Most commentators do not understand SaaS businesses because they have never scaled one themselves, and deeply reflected on what the true value proposition of SaaS is.We also discuss Your Company is a Filesystem:We also shoutout CTO Ben Kus' and the AI team, who talked about the technical architecture and will return for AIE WF 2026.Full Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00 Adapting Work for Agents* 01:29 Why Every Agent Needs a Box* 04:38 Agent Governance and Identity* 11:28 Why Coding Agents Took Off First* 21:42 Context Engineering and Search Limits* 31:29 Inside Agent Evals* 33:23 Industries and Datasets* 35:22 Building the Agent Team* 38:50 Read Write Agent Workflows* 41:54 Docs Graphs and Founder Mode* 55:38 Token FOMO Culture* 56:31 Production Function Secrets* 01:01:08 Film Roots to Box* 01:03:38 AI Future of Movies* 01:06:47 Media DevRel and EngineeringTranscriptAdapting Work for AgentsAaron Levie: Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent and it goes and does it for you, and you may be at best review it. That's even probably like, like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective. In that model, the agent didn't really adapt to how we work.We basically adapted to how the agent works. All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution. Right now, it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this ‘cause you'll see compounding returns. But that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.swyx: Welcome to the Lane Space Pod. We're back in the chroma studio with uh, chroma, CEO, Jeff Hoover. Welcome returning guest now guest host.Aaron Levie: It's a pleasure. Wow. How'd you get upgraded to, uh, to that?swyx: Because he's like the perfect guy to be guest those for you.Aaron Levie: That makes sense actually, for We love context. We, we both really love context le we really do.We really do.swyx: Uh, and we're here with, uh, Aaron Levy. Welcome.Aaron Levie: Thank you. Good to, uh, good to be [00:01:00] here.swyx: Uh, yeah. So we've all met offline and like chatted a little bit, but like, it's always nice to get these things in person and conversation. Yeah. You just started off with so much energy. You're, you're super excited about agents.I loveAaron Levie: agents.swyx: Yeah. Open claw. Just got by, got bought by OpenAI. No, not bought, but you know, you know what I mean?Aaron Levie: Some, some, you know, acquihire. Executiveswyx: hire.Aaron Levie: Executive hire. Okay. Executive hire. Say,swyx: hey, that's my term. Okay. Um, what are you pounding the table on on agents? You have so many insightful tweets.Why Every Agent Needs a BoxAaron Levie: Well, the thing that, that we get super excited by that I think is probably, you know, should be relatively obvious is we've, we've built a platform to help enterprises manage their files and their, their corporate files and the permissions of who has access to those files and the sharing collaboration of those files.All of those files contain really, really important information for the enterprise. It might have your contracts, it might have your research materials, it might have marketing information, it might have your memos. All that data obviously has, you know, predominantly been used by humans. [00:02:00] But there's been one really interesting problem, which is that, you know, humans only really work with their files during an active engagement with them, and they kind of go away and you don't really see them for a long time.And all of a sudden, uh, with the power of AI and AI agents, all of that data becomes extremely relevant as this ongoing source of, of answers to new questions of data that will transform into, into something else that, that produces value in your organization. It, it contains the answer to the new employee that's onboarding, that needs to ramp up on a project.Um, it contains the answer to the right thing to sell a customer when you're having a conversation to them, with them contains the roadmap information that's gonna produce the next feature. So all that data. That previously we've been just sort of storing and, and you know, occasionally forgetting about, ‘cause we're only working on the new active stuff.All of that information becomes valuable to the enterprise and it's gonna become extremely valuable to end users because now they can have agents go find what they're looking for and produce new, new [00:03:00] value and new data on that information. And it's gonna become incredibly valuable to agents because agents can roam around and do a bunch of work and they're gonna need access to that data as well.And um, and you know, sometimes that will be an agent that is sort of working on behalf of, of, of you and, and effectively as you as and, and they are kind of accessing all of the same information that you have access to and, and operating as you in the system. And then sometimes there's gonna be agents that are just.Effectively autonomous and kind of run on their own and, and you're gonna collaborate and work with them kind of like you did another person. Open Claw being the most recent and maybe first real sort of, you know, kind of, you know, up updating everybody's, you know, views of this landscape version of, of what that could look like, which is, okay, I have an agent.It's on its own system, it's on its own computer, it has access to its own tools. I probably don't give it access to my entire life. I probably communicate with it like I would an assistant or a colleague and then it, it sort of has this sandbox environment. So all of that has massive implications for a platform that manage that [00:04:00] enterprise data.We think it's gonna just transform how we work with all of the enterprise content that we work with, and we just have to make sure we're building the right platform to support that.swyx: The sort of shorthand I put it is as people build agents, everybody's just realizing that every agent needs a box. Yes.And it's nice to be called box and just give everyone a box.Aaron Levie: Hey, I if I, you know, if we can make that go viral, uh, like I, I think that that terminology, I, that's theswyx: tagline. Every agentAaron Levie: needs a box. Every agent needs a box. If we can make that the headline of this, I'm fine with this. And that's the billboard I wanna like Yeah, exactly.Every agent needs a box. Um, I like it. Can we ship this? Like,swyx: okay, let's do it. Yeah.Aaron Levie: Uh, my work here is done and I got the value I needed outta this podcast Drinks.swyx: Yeah.Agent Governance and IdentityAaron Levie: But, but, um, but, but, you know, so the thing that we, we kind of think about is, um, is, you know, whether you think the number 10 x or a hundred x or whatever the number is, we're gonna have some order of magnitude more agents than people.That's inevitable. It has to happen. So then the question is, what is the infrastructure that's needed to make all those agents effective in the enterprise? Make sure that they are well governed. Make sure they're only doing [00:05:00] safe things on your information. Make sure that they're not getting exposed. The data that they shouldn't have access to.There's gonna be just incredibly spectacularly crazy security incidents that will happen with agents because you'll prompt, inject an agent and sort of find your way through the CRM system and pull out data that you shouldn't have access to. Oh, weJeff Huber: have God,Aaron Levie: right? I mean, that's just gonna happen all over the place, right?So, so then the thing is, is how do you make sure you have the right security, the permissions, the access controls, the data governance. Um, we actually don't yet exactly know in many cases how we're gonna regulate some of these agents, right? If you think about an agent in financial services, does it have the exact same financial sort of, uh, requirements that a human did?Or is it, is the risk fully on the human that was interacting or created the agent? All open questions, but no matter what, there's gonna need to be a layer that manages the, the data they have access to, the workflows that they're involved in, pulling up data from multiple systems. This is the new infrastructure opportunity in the era of agents.swyx: You have a piece on agent identities, [00:06:00] which I think was today, um, which I think a lot of breaking news, the security, security people are talking about, right? Like you basically, I, I always think of this as like, well you need the human you and then there you need the agent. YouAaron Levie: Yes.swyx: And uh, well, I don't know if it's that simple, but is box going to have an opinion on that or you're just gonna be like, well we're just the sort of the, the source layer.Yeah. Let's Okta of zero handle that.Aaron Levie: I think we're gonna have an opinion and we will work with generally wherever the contours of the market end up. Um, and the reason that we're gonna have an opinion more than other topics probably is because one of the biggest use cases for why your agent might need it, an identity is for file system access.So thus we have to kind of think about this pretty deeply. And I think, uh, unless you're like in our world thinking about this particular problem all day long, it might be, you know, like, why is this such a big deal? And the reason why it's a really big deal is because sometimes sort of say, well just give the agent an, an account on the system and it just treats, treat it like every other type of user on the system.The [00:07:00] problem is, is that I as Aaron don't really have any responsibility over anybody else's box account in our organization. I can't see the box account of any other employee that I work with. I am not liable for anything that they do. And they have, I have, I have, you know, strict privacy requirements on everything that they're able to, you know, that, that, that they work on.Agents don't have that, you know, don't have those properties. The person who creates the agent probably is gonna, for the foreseeable future, take on a lot of the liability of what that agent does. That agent doesn't deserve any privacy because, because it's, you know, it can't fully be autonomously operated and it doesn't have any legal, you know, kind of, you know, responsibility.So thus you can't just be like, oh, well I'll just create a bunch of accounts and then I'll, I'll kind of work with that agent and I'll talk to it occasionally. Like you need oversight of that. And so then the question is, how do you have a world where the agent, sometimes you have oversight of, but what if that agent goes and works with other people?That person over there is collaborating with the agent on something you shouldn't have [00:08:00] access to what they're doing. So we have all of these new boundaries that we're gonna have to figure out of, of, you know, it's really, really easy. So far we've been in, in easy mode. We've hit the easy button with ai, which is the agent just is you.And when you're in quad code and you're in cursor, and you're in Codex, you're just, the agent is you. You're offing into your services. It can do everything you can do. That's the easy mode. The hard mode is agents are kind of running on their own. People check in with them occasionally, they're doing things autonomously.How do you give them access to resources in the enterprise and not dramatically increased the security risk and the risk that you might expose the wrong thing to somebody. These are all the new problems that we have to get solved. I like the identity layer and, and identity vendors as being a solution to that, but we'll, we'll need some opinions as well because so many of the use cases are these collaborative file system use cases, which is how do I give it an agent, a subset of my data?Give it its own workspace as well. ‘cause it's gonna need to store off its own information that would be relevant for it. And how do I have the right oversight into that? [00:09:00]Jeff Huber: One thing, which, um, I think is kind interesting, think about is that you know, how humans work, right? Like I may not also just like give you access to the whole file.I might like sit next to you and like scroll to this like one part of the file and just show you that like one part and like, you know,swyx: partial file access.Jeff Huber: I'm just saying I think like our, like RA does seem to be dead, right? Like you wanna say something is dead uhhuh probably RA is dead. And uh, like the auth story to me seems like incredibly unsolved and unaddressed by like the existing state of like AI vendors.ButAaron Levie: yeah, I think, um, we're, I mean you're taking obviously really to level limit that we probably need to solve for. Yeah. And we built an access control system that was, was kind of like, you know, its own little world for, for a long time. And um, and the idea was this, it's a many to many collaboration system where I can give you any part of the file system.And it's a waterfall model. So if I give you higher up in the, in the, in the system, you get everything below. And that, that kind of created immense flexibility because I can kind of point you to any layer in the, in the tree, but then you're gonna get access to everything kind of below it. And that [00:10:00] mostly is, is working in this, in this world.But you do have to manage this issue, which is how do I create an agent that has access to some of my stuff and somebody else's stuff as well. Mm-hmm. And which parts do I get to look at as the creator of the agent? And, and these are just brand new problems? Yeah. Crazy. And humans, when there was a human there that was really easy to do.Like, like if the three of us were all sharing, there'd be a Venn diagram where we'd have an overlapping set of things we've shared, but then we'd have our own ways that we shared with each other. In an agent world, somebody needs to take responsibility for what that agent has access to and what they're working on.These are like the, some of the most probably, you know, boring problems for 98% of people on, on the internet, but they will be the problems that are the difference between can you actually have autonomous agents in an enterprise contextswyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: That are not leaking your data constantly.swyx: No. Like, I mean, you know, I run a very, very small company for my conference and like we already have data sensitivity issues.Yes. And some of my team members cannot see Yes. Uh, the others and like, I can't imagine what it's like to run a Fortune 500 and like, you have to [00:11:00] worry about this. I'm just kinda curious, like you, you talked to a lot like, like 70, 80% of your cus uh, of the Fortune 500, your customers.Aaron Levie: Yep. 67%. Just so we're being verySEswyx: precise.So Yeah. I'm notAaron Levie: Okay. Okay.swyx: Something I'm rounding up. Yes. Round up. I'm projecting to, forAaron Levie: the government.swyx: I'm projecting to the end of the year.Aaron Levie: Okay.swyx: There you go.Aaron Levie: You do make it sound like, like we, we, well we've gotta be on this. Like we're, we're taking way too long to get to 80%. Well,swyx: no, I mean, so like. How are they approaching it?Right? Because you're, you don't have a, you don't have a final answer yet.Why Coding Agents Took Off FirstAaron Levie: Well, okay, so, so this is actually, this is the stark reality that like, unfortunately is the kinda like pouring the water on the party a little bit.swyx: Yes.Aaron Levie: We all in Silicon Valley are like, have the absolute best conditions possible for AI ever.And I think we all saw the dke, you know, kind of Dario podcast and this idea of AI coding. Why is that taken off? And, and we're not yet fully seeing it everywhere else. Well, look, if you just like enumerated the list of properties that AI coding has and then compared it to other [00:12:00] knowledge work, let's just, let's just go through a few of them.Generally speaking, you bring on a new engineer, they have access to a large swath of the code base. Like, there's like very, like you, just, like new engineer comes on, they can just go and find the, the, the stuff that they, they need to work with. It's a fully text in text out. Medium. It's only, it's just gonna be text at the end of the day.So it's like really great from a, from just a, uh, you know, kinda what the agent can work with. Obviously the models are super trained on that dataset. The labs themselves have a really strong, kind of self-reinforcing positive flywheel of why they need to do, you know, agent coding deeply. So then you get just better tooling, better services.The actual developers of the AI are daily users of the, of the thing that they're we're working on versus like the, you know, probably there's only like seven Claude Cowork legal plugin users at Anthropic any given day, but there's like a couple thousand Claude code and you know, users every single day.So just like, think about which one are they getting more feedback on. All day long. So you just go through this list. You have a, you know, everybody who's a [00:13:00] developer by definition is technical so they can go install the latest thing. We're all generally online, or at least, you know, kinda the weird ones are, and we're all talking to each other, sharing best practices, like that's like already eight differences.Versus the rest of the economy. Every other part of the economy has like, like six to seven headwinds relative to that list. You go into a company, you're a banker in financial services, you have access to like a, a tiny little subset of the total data that's gonna be relevant to do your job. And you're have to start to go and talk to a bunch of people to get the right data to do your job because Sally didn't add you to that deal room, you know, folder.And that that, you know, the information is actually in a completely different organization that you now have to go in and, and sort of run into. And it's like you have this endless list of access controls and security. As, as you talked about, you have a medium, which is not, it's not just text, right? You have, you have a zoom call that, that you're getting all of the requirements from the customer.You have a lot of in-person conversations and you're doing in-person sales and like how do you ever [00:14:00] digitize all of that information? Um, you know, I think a lot of people got upset with this idea that the code base has all the context, um, that I don't know if you follow, you know, did you follow some of that conversation that that went viral?Is like, you know, it's not that simple that, that the code base doesn't have all the knowledge, but like it's a lot, you're a lot better off than you are with other areas of knowledge work. Like you, we like, we like have documentation practices, you write specifications. Those things don't exist for like 80% of work that happens in the enterprise.That's the divide that we have, which is, which is AI coding has, has just fully, you know, where we've reached escape velocity of how powerful this stuff is, and then we're gonna have to find a way to bring that same energy and momentum, but to all these other areas of knowledge work. Where the tools aren't there, the data's not set up to be there.The access controls don't make it that easy. The context engineering is an incredibly hard problem because again, you have access control challenges, you have different data formats. You have end users that are gonna need to kind of be kind of trained through this as opposed to their adopting [00:15:00] these tools in their free time.That's where the Fortune 500 is. And so we, I think, you know, have to be prepared as an industry where we are gonna be on a multi-year march to, to be able to bring agents to the enterprise for these workflows. And I think probably the, the thing that we've learned most in coding that, that the rest of the world is not yet, I think ready for, I mean, we're, they'll, they'll have to be ready for it because it's just gonna inevitably happen is I think in coding.What, what's interesting is if you think about the practice of coding today versus two years ago. It's probably the most changed workflow in maybe the history of time from the amount of time it's changed, right? Yeah. Like, like has any, has any workflow in the entire economy changed that quickly in terms of the amount of change?I just, you know, at least in any knowledge worker workflow, there's like very rarely been an event where one piece of technology and work practice has so fundamentally, you know, changed, changed what you do. Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent and it goes and [00:16:00] does it for you, and you may be at best review it.And even that's even probably like, like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective. In that model, the agent didn't really adapt to how we work. We basically adapted to how the agent works. Mm-hmm. All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution.The rest of the economy is gonna have to update its workflows to make agents effective. And to give agents the context that they need and to actually figure out what kind of prompting works and to figure out how do you ensure that the agent has the right access to information to be able to execute on its work.I, you know, this is not the panacea that people were hoping for, of the agent drops in, just automates your life. Like you have to basically re-engineer your workflow to get the most out of agents and, uh, and that, that's just gonna take, you know, multiple years across the economy. Right now it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this.‘cause [00:17:00] you'll see compounding returns, but that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.swyx: I love, I love pushing back. I think that. That is what a lot of technology consultants love to hear this sort of thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. First to, to embrace the ai. Yes. To get to the promised land, you must pay me so much money to a hundred percent to adopt the prescribed way of, uh, conforming to the agents.Yes. And I worry that you will be eclipsed by someone else who says, no, come as you are.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And we'll meet you where you are.Aaron Levie: And, and, and and what was the thing that went viral a week ago? OpenAI probably, uh, is hiring F Dees. Yeah. Uh, to go into the enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. And then philanthropic is embedded at Goldman Sachs.Yeah. So if the labs are having to do this, if, if the labs have decided that they need to hire FDE and professional services, then I think that's a pretty clear indication that this, there's no easy mode of workflow transformation. Yeah. Yeah. So, so to your point, I think actually this is a market opportunity for, you know, new professional services and consulting [00:18:00] firms that are like Agent Build and they, and they kind of, you know, go into organizations and they figure out how to re-engineer your workflows to make them more agent ready and get your data into the right format and, you know, reconstruct your business process.So you're, you're not doing most of the work. You're telling agents how to do the work and then you're reviewing it. But I haven't seen the thing that can just drop in and, and kinda let you not go through those changes.swyx: I don't know how that kind of sales pitch goes over. Yeah. You know, you're, you're saying things like, well, in my sort of nice beautiful walled garden, here's, there's, uh, because here's this, here's this beautiful box account that has everything.Yes. And I'm like, well, most, most real life is extremely messy. Sure. And like, poorly named and there duplicate this outdated s**tAaron Levie: a hundred percent. And so No, no, a hundred percent. And so this is actually No. So, so this is, I mean, we agree that, that getting to the beautiful garden is gonna be tough.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: There's also the other end of the spectrum where I, I just like, it's a technical impossibility to solve. The agent is, is truly cannot get enough context to make the right decision in, in the, in the incredibly messy land. Like there's [00:19:00] no a GI that will solve that. So, so we're gonna have to kind of land in somewhere in between, which is like we all collectively get better at.Documentation practices and, and having authoritative relatively up-to-date information and putting it in the right place like agents will, will certainly cause us to be much better organized around how we work with our information, simply because the severity of the agent pulling the wrong data will be too high and the productivity gain of that you'll miss out on by not doing this will be too high as well, that you, that your competition will just do it and they'll just have higher velocity.So, uh, and, and we, we see this a lot firsthand. So we, we build a series of agents internally that they can kind of have access to your full box account and go off and you give it a task and it can go find whatever information you're looking for and work with. And, you know, thank God for the model progress, but like, if, if you gave that task to an agent.Nine months ago, you're just gonna get lots of bogus answers because it's gonna, it's gonna say, Hey, here's, here are fi [00:20:00] five, you know, documents that all kind of smell like the right thing. And I'm gonna, but I, but you're, you're putting me on the clock. ‘cause my assistant prompt says like, you know, be pretty smart, but also try and respond to the user and it's gonna respond.And it's like, ah, it got the wrong document. And then you do that once or twice as a knowledge worker and you're just neverswyx: again,Aaron Levie: never again. You're just like done with the system.swyx: Yeah. It doesn't work.Aaron Levie: It doesn't work. And so, you know, Opus four six and Gemini three one Pro and you know, whatever the latest five 3G BT will be, like, those things are getting better and better and it's using better judgment.And this sort of like the, all of these updates to the agentic tool and search systems are, are, we're seeing, we're seeing very real progress where the agent. Kind of can, can almost smell some things a little bit fishy when it's getting, you know, we, we have this process where we, we have it go fan out, do a bunch of searches, pull up a bunch of data, and then it has to sort of do its own ranking of, you know, what are the right documents that, that it should be working with.And again, like, you know, the intelligence level of a model six months ago, [00:21:00] it'd be just throwing a dart at like, I'm just, I'm gonna grab these seven files and I, I pray, I hope that that's the right answer. And something like an opus first four five, and now four six is like, oh, it's like, no, that one doesn't seem right relative to this question because I'm seeing some signal that is making that, you know, that's contradicting the document where it would normally be in the tree and who should have access.Like it's doing all of that kind of work for you. But like, it still doesn't work if you just have a total wasteland of data. Like, it's just not, it's just not possible. Partly ‘cause a human wouldn't even be able to do it. So basically if a, if a really, really smart human. Could not do that task in five or 10 minutes for a search retrieval type task.Look, you know, your agent's not gonna be able to do it any better. You see this all day long. SoContext Engineering and Search Limitsswyx: this touches on a thing that just passionate about it was just context engineering. I, I'm just gonna let you ramble or riff on, on context engineering. If, if, if there's anything like he, he did really good work on context fraud, which has really taken over as like the term that people use and the referenceAaron Levie: a hundred percent.We, we all we think about is, is the context rob problem. [00:22:00]Jeff Huber: Yeah, there's certainly a lot of like ranking considerations. Gentech surgery think is incredibly promising. Um, yeah, I was trying to generate a question though. I think I have a question right now. Swyx.Aaron Levie: Yeah, no, but like, like I think there was this moment, um, you know, like, I don't know, two years ago before, before we knew like where the, the gotchas were gonna be in ai and I think someone was like, was like, well, infinite context windows will just solve all of these problems and ‘cause you'll just, you'll just give the context window like all the data and.It's just like, okay, I mean, maybe in 2035, like this is a viable solution. First of all, it, it would just, it would just simply cost too much. Like we just can't give the model like the 5,000 documents that might be relevant and it's gonna read them all. And I've seen enough to, to start believing in crazy stuff.So like, I'm willing to just say, sure. Like in, in 10 years from now,swyx: never say, never, never.Aaron Levie: In, in 10 years from now, we'll have infinite context windows at, at a thousandth of the price of today. Like, let's just like believe that that's possible, but Right. We're in reality today. So today we have a context engineering [00:23:00] problem, which is, I got, I got, you know, 200,000 tokens that I can work with, or prob, I don't even know what the latest graph is before, like massive degradation.16. Okay. I have 60,000 tokens that I get to work with where I'm gonna get accurate information. That's not a lot of tokens for a corpus of 10 million documents that a knowledge worker might have across all of the teams and all the projects and all the people they work with. I have, I have 10 million documents.Which, you know, maybe is times five pages per document or something like that. I'm at 50 million pages of information and I have 60,000 tokens. Like, holy s**t. Yeah. This is like, how do I bridge the 50 million pages of information with, you know, the couple hundred that I get to work with in that, in that token window.Yeah. This is like, this is like such an interesting problem and that's why actually so much work is actually like, just like search systems and the databases and that layer has to just get so locked in, but models getting better and importantly [00:24:00] knowing when they've done a search, they found the wrong thing, they go back, they check their work, they, they find a way to balance sort of appeasing the user versus double checking.We have this one, we have this one test case where we ask the agent to go find. 10 pieces of information.swyx: Is this the complex work eval?Aaron Levie: Uh, this is actually not in the eval. This is, this is sort of just like we have a bunch of different, we have a bunch of internal benchmark kind of scenarios. Every time we, we update our agent, we have one, which is, I ask it to find all of our office addresses, and I give it the list of 10 offices that we have.And there's not one document that has this, maybe there should be, that would be a great example of the kind of thing that like maybe over time companies start to, you know, have these sort of like, what are the canonical, you know, kind of key areas of knowledge that we need to have. We don't seem to have this one document that says, here are all of our offices.We have a bunch of documents that have like, here's the New York office and whatever. So you task this agent and you, you get, you say, I need the addresses for these 10 offices. Okay. And by the way, if you do this on any, you know, [00:25:00] public chat model, the same outcome is gonna happen. But for a different kind of query, you give it, you say, I need these 10 addresses.How many times should the agent go and do its search before it decides whether or not, there's just no answer to this question. Often, and especially the, the, let's say lower tier models, it'll come back and it'll give you six of the 10 addresses. And it'll, and I'll just say I couldn't find the otherswyx: four.It, it doesn't know what It doesn't know. ItAaron Levie: doesn't know what It doesn't know. Yeah. So the model is just like, like when should it stop? When should it stop doing? Like should it, should it do that task for literally an hour and just keep cranking through? Maybe I actually made up an office location and it doesn't know that I made it up and I didn't even know that I made it up.Like, should it just keep, re should it read every single file in your entire box account until it, until it should exhaust every single piece of information.swyx: Expensive.Aaron Levie: These are the new problems that we have. So, you know, something like, let's say a new opus model is sort of like, okay, I'm gonna try these types of queries.I didn't get exactly what I wanted. I'm gonna try again. I'm gonna, at [00:26:00] some point I'm gonna stop searching. ‘cause I've determined that that no amount of searching is gonna solve this problem. I'm just not able to do it. And that judgment is like a really new thing that the model needs to be able to have.It's like, when should it give up on a task? ‘cause, ‘cause you just don't, it's a can't find the thing. That's the real world of knowledge, work problems. And this is the stuff that the coding agents don't have to deal with. Because they, it just doesn't like, like you're not usually asking it about, you're, you're always creating net new information coming right outta the model for the most part.Obviously it has to know about your code base and your specs and your documentation, but, but when you deploy an agent on all of your data that now you have all of these new problems that you're dealing withJeff Huber: our, uh, follow follow-up research to context ride is actually on a genetic search. Ah. Um, and we've like right, sort of stress tested like frontier models and their ability to search.Um, and they're not actually that good at searching. Right. Uh, so you're sort of highlighting this like explore, exploit.swyx: You're just say, Debbie, Donna say everything doesn't work. Like,Aaron Levie: well,Jeff Huber: somebody has to be,Aaron Levie: um, can I just throw out one more thing? Yeah. That is different from coding and, and the rest [00:27:00] of the knowledge work that I, I failed to mention.So one other kind of key point is, is that, you know, at the end of the day. Whether you believe we're in a slop apocalypse or, or whatever. At the end of the day, if you, if you build a working product at the end of, if you, if you've built a working solution that is ultimately what the customer is paying for, like whether I have a lot of slop, a little slop or whatever, I'm sure there's lots of code bases we could go into in enterprise software companies where it's like just crazy slop that humans did over a 20 year period, but the end customer just gets this little interface.They can, they can type into it, it does its thing. Knowledge work, uh, doesn't have that property. If I have an AI model, go generate a contract and I generate a contract 20 times and, you know, all 20 times it's just 3% different and like that I, that, that kind of lop introduces all new kinds of risk for my organization that the code version of that LOP didn't, didn't introduce.These are, and so like, so how do you constrain these models to just the part that you want [00:28:00] them to work on and just do the thing that you want them to do? And, and, you know, in engineering, we don't, you can't be disbarred as an engineer, but you could be disbarred as a lawyer. Like you can do the wrong medical thing In healthcare, you, there's no, there's no equivalent to that of engineering.Like, doswyx: you want there to be, because I've considered softwareJeff Huber: engineer. What's that? Civil engineering there is, right? NotAaron Levie: software civil engineer. Sure. Oh yeah, for sure. But like in any of our companies, you like, you know, you'll be forgiven if you took down the site and, and we, we will do a rollback and you'll, you'll be in a meeting, but you have not been disbarred as an engineer.We don't, we don't change your, you know, your computer science, uh, blameJeff Huber: degree, this postmortem.Aaron Levie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so, uh, now maybe we collectively as an industry need to figure out like, what are you liable for? Not legally, but like in a, in a management sense, uh, of these agents. All sorts of interesting problems that, that, that, uh, that have to come out.But in knowledge work, that's the real hostile environments that we're operating in. Hmm.swyx: I do think like, uh, a lot of the last year's, 2025 story was the rise of coding agents and I think [00:29:00] 2026 story is definitely knowledge work agents. Yes. A hundredAaron Levie: percent.swyx: Right. Like that would, and I think open claw core work are just the beginning.Yes. Like it's, the next one's gonna just gonna be absolute craziness.Aaron Levie: It it is. And, and, uh, and it's gonna be, I mean, again, like this is gonna be this, this wave where we, we are gonna try and bring as many of the practices from coding because that, that will clearly be the forefront, which is tell an agent to go do something and has an access to a set of resources.You need to be responsible for reviewing it at the end of the process. That to me is the, is the kind of template that I just think goes across knowledge, work and odd. Cowork is a great example. Open Closet's a great example. You can kind of, sort of see what Codex could become over time. These are some, some really interesting kind of platforms that are emerging.swyx: Okay. Um, I wanted to, we touched on evals a little bit. You had, you had the report that you're gonna go bring up and then I was gonna go into like, uh, boxes, evals, but uh, go ahead. Talk about your genetic search thing.Jeff Huber: Yeah. Mostly I think kinda a few of the insights. It's like number one frontier model is not good at search.Humans have this [00:30:00] natural explore, exploit trade off where we kinda understand like when to stop doing something. Also, humans are pretty good at like forgetting actually, and like pruning their own context, whereas agents are not, and actually an agent in their kind of context history, if they knew something was bad and they even, you could see in the trace the reason you trace, Hey, that probably wasn't a good idea.If it's still in the trace, still in the context, they'll still do it again. Uhhuh. Uh, and so like, I think pruning is also gonna be like, really, it's already becoming a thing, right? But like, letting self prune the con windowsswyx: be a big deal. Yeah. So, so don't leave the mistake. Don't leave the mistake in there.Cut out the mistake but tell it that you made a mistake in the past and so it doesn't repeat it.Jeff Huber: Yeah. But like cut it out so it doesn't get like distracted by it again. ‘cause really, you know, what is so, so it will repeat its mistake just because it's been, it's inswyx: theJeff Huber: context. It'sAaron Levie: in the context so much.That's a few shot example. Even if it, yeah.Jeff Huber: It's like oh thisAaron Levie: is a great thing to go try even ifJeff Huber: it didn't work.Aaron Levie: Yeah,Jeff Huber: exactly.Aaron Levie: SoJeff Huber: there's like a bunch of stuff there. JustAaron Levie: Groundhogs Day inside these models. Yeah. I'm gonna go keep doing the same wrongJeff Huber: thing. Covering sense. I feel like, you know, some creator analogy you're trying like fit a manifold in latent space, which kind is doing break program synthesis, which is kinda one we think about we're doing right.Like, you know, certain [00:31:00] facts might be like sort of overly pitting it. There are certain, you know, sec sectors of latent space and so like plug clean space. Yeah. And, uh, andswyx: so we have a bell, our editor as a bell every time you say that. SoJeff Huber: you have, you have to like remove those, likeswyx: you shoulda a gong like TPN or something.IfJeff Huber: we gong, you either remove those links to like kinda give it the freedom, kind of do what you need to do. So, but yeah. We'll, we'll release more soon. That'sAaron Levie: awesome.Jeff Huber: That'll, that'll be cool.swyx: We're a cerebral podcast that people listen to us and, and sort of think really deep. So yeah, we try to keep it subtle.Okay. We try to keep it.Aaron Levie: Okay, fine.Inside Agent Evalsswyx: Um, you, you guys do, you guys do have EVs, you talked about your, your office thing, but, uh, you've been also promoting APEX agents and complex work. Uh, yeah, whatever you, wherever you wanna take this just Yeah. How youAaron Levie: Apex is, is obviously me, core's, uh, uh, kind of, um, agent eval.We, we supported that by sort of. Opening up some data for them around how we kind of see these, um, data workspaces in, in the, you know, kind of regular economy. So how do lawyers have a workspace? How do investment bankers have a workspace? What kind of data goes into those? And so we, [00:32:00] we partner with them on their, their apex eval.Our own, um, eval is, it's actually relatively straightforward. We have a, a set of, of documents in a, in a range of industries. We give the agent previously did this as a one shot test of just purely the model. And then we just realized we, we need to, based on where everything's going, it's just gotta be more agentic.So now it's a bit more of a test of both our harness and the model. And we have a rubric of a set of things that has to get right and we score it. Um, and you're just seeing, you know, these incredible jumps in almost every single model in its own family of, you know, opus four, um, you know, sonnet four six versus sonnet four five.swyx: Yeah. We have this up on screen.Aaron Levie: Okay, cool. So some, you're seeing it somewhere like. I, I forget the to, it was like 15 point jump, I think on the main, on the overall,swyx: yes.Aaron Levie: And it's just like, you know, these incredible leaps that, that are starting to happen. Um,swyx: and OP doesn't know any, like any, it's completely held out from op.Aaron Levie: This is not in any, there's no public data which has, you know, Ben benefits and this is just a private eval that we [00:33:00] do, and then we just happen to show it to, to the world. Hmm. So you can't, you can't train against it. And I think it's just as representative of. It's obviously reasoning capabilities, what it's doing at, at, you know, kind of test time, compute capabilities, thinking levels, all like the context rot issues.So many interesting, you know, kind of, uh, uh, capabilities that are, that are now improvingswyx: one sector that you have. That's interesting.Industries and Datasetsswyx: Uh, people are roughly familiar with healthcare and legal, but you have public sector in there.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: Uh, what's that? Like, what, what, what is that?Aaron Levie: Yeah, and, and we actually test against, I dunno, maybe 10 industries.We, we end up usually just cutting a few that we think have interesting gains. All extras, won a lot of like government type documents. Um,swyx: what is that? What is it? Government type documents?Aaron Levie: Government filings. Like a taxswyx: return, likeAaron Levie: a probably not tax returns. It would be more of what would go the government be using, uh, as data.So, okay. Um, so think about research that, that type of, of, of data sets. And then we have financial services for things like data rooms and what would be in an investment prospectus. Uhhuh,swyx: that one you can dog food.Aaron Levie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. [00:34:00] So, uh, so we, we run the models, um, in now, you know, more of an agent mode, but, but still with, with kinda limited capacity and just try and see like on a, like, for like basis, what are the improvements?And, and again, we just continue to be blown away by. How, how good these models are getting.swyx: Yeah, I mean, I think every serious AI company needs something like that where like, well, this is the work we do. Here's our company eval. Yeah. And if you don't have it, well, you're not a serious AI company.Aaron Levie: There's two dimensions, right?So there's, there's like, how are the models improving? And so which models should you either recommend a customer use, which one should you adopt? But then every single day, we're making changes to our agents. And you need to knowswyx: if you regressed,Aaron Levie: if you know. Yeah. You know, I've been fully convinced that the whole agent observability and eval space is gonna be a massive space.Um, super excited for what Braintrust is doing, excited for, you know, Lang Smith, all the things. And I think what you're going to, I mean, this is like every enter like literally every enterprise right now. It's like the AI companies are the customers of these tools. Every enterprise will have this. Yeah, you'll just [00:35:00] have to have an eval.Of all of your work and like, we'll, you'll have an eval of your RFP generation, you'll have an eval of your sales material creation. You'll have an eval of your, uh, invoice processing. And, and as you, you know, buy or use new agentic systems, you are gonna need to know like, what's the quality of your, of your pipeline.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: Um, so huge, huge market with agent evals.swyx: Yeah.Building the Agent Teamswyx: And, and you know, I'm gonna shout out your, your team a bit, uh, your CTO, Ben, uh, did a great talk with us last year. Awesome. And he's gonna come back again. Oh, cool. For World's Fair.Aaron Levie: Yep.swyx: Just talk about your team, like brag a little bit. I think I, I think people take these eval numbers in pretty charts for granted, but No, there, I mean, there's, there's lots of really smart people at work during all this.Aaron Levie: Biggest shout out, uh, is we have a, we have a couple folks at Dya, uh, Sidarth, uh, that, that kind of run this. They're like a, you know, kind of tag tag team duo on our evals, Ben, our CTO, heavily involved Yasha, head of ai, uh, you know, a bunch of folks. And, um, evals is one part of the story. And then just like the full, you know, kind of AI.An agent team [00:36:00] is, uh, is a, is a pretty, you know, is core to this whole effort. So there's probably, I don't know, like maybe a few dozen people that are like the epicenter. And then you just have like layers and layers of, of kind of concentric circles of okay, then there's a search team that supports them and an infrastructure team that supports them.And it's starting to ripple through the entire company. But there's that kind of core agent team, um, that's a pretty, pretty close, uh, close knit group.swyx: The search team is separate from the infra team.Aaron Levie: I mean, we have like every, every layer of the stack we have to kind of do, except for just pure public cloud.Um, but um, you know, we, we store, I don't even know what our public numbers are in, you know, but like, you can just think about it as like a lot of data is, is stored in box. And so we have, and you have every layer of the, of the stack of, you know, how do you manage the data, the file system, the metadata system, the search system, just all of those components.And then they all are having to understand that now you've got this new customer. Which is the agent, and they've been building for two types of customers in the past. They've been building for users and they've been building for like applications. [00:37:00] And now you've got this new agent user, and it comes in with a difference of it, of property sometimes, like, hey, maybe sometimes we should do embeddings, an embedding based, you know, kind of search versus, you know, your, your typical semantic search.Like, it's just like you have to build the, the capabilities to support all of this. And we're testing stuff, throwing things away, something doesn't work and, and not relevant. It's like just, you know, total chaos. But all of those teams are supporting the agent team that is kind of coming up with its requirements of what, what do we need?swyx: Yeah. No, uh, we just came from, uh, fireside chat where you did, and you, you talked about how you're doing this. It's, it's kind of like an internal startup. Yeah. Within the broader company. The broader company's like 3000 people. Yeah. But you know, there's, there's a, this is a core team of like, well, here's the innovation center.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And like that every company kind of is run this way.Aaron Levie: Yeah. I wanna be sensitive. I don't call it the innovation center. Yeah. Only because I think everybody has to do innovation. Um, there, there's a part of the, the, the company that is, is sort of do or die for the agent wave.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: And it only happens to be more of my focus simply because it's existential that [00:38:00] we get it right.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: All of the supporting systems are necessary. All of the surrounding adjacent capabilities are necessary. Like the only reason we get to be a platform where you'd run an agent is because we have a security feature or a compliance feature, or a governance feature that, that some team is working on.But that's not gonna be the make or break of, of whether we get agents right. Like that already exists and we need to keep innovating there. I don't know what the right, exact precise number is, but it's not a thousand people and it's not 10 people. There's a number of people that are like the, the kind of like, you know, startup within the company that are the make or break on everything related to AI agents, you know, leveraging our platform and letting you work with your data.And that's where I spend a lot of my time, and Ben and Yosh and Diego and Teri, you know, these are just, you know, people that, that, you know, kind of across the team. Are working.swyx: Yeah. Amazing.Read Write Agent WorkflowsJeff Huber: How do you, how do you think about, I mean, you talked a lot about like kinda read workflows over your box data. Yep.Right. You know, gen search questions, queries, et cetera. But like, what about like, write or like authoring workflows?Aaron Levie: Yes. I've [00:39:00] already probably revealed too much actually now that I think about it. So, um, I've talked about whatever,Jeff Huber: whatever you can.Aaron Levie: Okay. It's just us. It's just us. Yeah. Okay. Of course, of course.So I, I guess I would just, uh, I'll make it a little bit conceptual, uh, because again, I've already, I've already said things that are not even ga but, but we've, we've kinda like danced around it publicly, so I, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just like, hopefully nobody watches this, um, episode. No.swyx: It's tidbits for the Heidi engaged to go figure out like what exactly, um, you know, is, is your sort of line of thinking.Sure. They can connect the dots.Aaron Levie: Yeah. So, so I would say that, that, uh, we, you know, as a, as a place where you have your enterprise content, there's a use case where I want to, you know, have an agent read that data and answer questions for me. And then there's a use case where I want the agent to create something.And use the file system to create something or store off data that it's working on, or be able to have, you know, various files that it's writing to about the work it's doing. So we do see it as a total read write. The harder problem has so far been the read only because, because again, you have that kind of like 10 [00:40:00] million to one ratio problem, whereas rights are a lot of, that's just gonna come from the model and, and we just like, we'll just put it in the file system and kinda use it.So it's a little bit of a technically easier problem, but the only part that's like, not necessarily technically hard, it is just like it's not yet perfected in the state of the ecosystem is, you know, building a beautiful PowerPoint presentation. It's still a hard problem for these models. Like, like we still, you know, like, like these formats are just, we're not built for.They'reswyx: working on it.Aaron Levie: They're, they're working on it. Everybody's working on it.swyx: Every launch is like, well, we do PowerPoint now.Aaron Levie: We're getting, yeah, getting a lot, getting a lot of better each time. But then you'll do this thing where you'll ask the update one slide and all of a sudden, like the fonts will be just like a little bit different, you know, on two of the slides, or it moved, you know, some shape over to the left a little bit.And again, these are the kind of things that, like in code, obviously you could really care about if you really care about, you know, how beautiful is the code, but at the end, user doesn't notice all those problems and file creation, the end user instantly sees it. You're [00:41:00] like, ah, like paragraph three, like, you literally just changed the font on me.Like it's a totally different font and like midway through the document. Mm-hmm. Those are the kind of things that you run into a lot of in the, in the content creation side. So, mm-hmm. We are gonna have native agents. That do all of those things, they'll be powered by the leading kind of models and labs.But the thing that I think is, is probably gonna be a much bigger idea over time is any agent on any system, again, using Box as a file system for its work, and in that kind of scenario, we don't necessarily care what it's putting in the file system. It could put its memory files, it could put its, you know, specification, you know, documents.It could put, you know, whatever its markdown files are, or it could, you know, generate PDFs. It's just like, it's a workspace that is, is sort of sandboxed off for its work. People can collaborate into it, it can share with other people. And, and so we, we were thinking a lot about what's the right, you know, kind of way to, to deliver that at scale.Docs Graphs and Founder Modeswyx: I wanted to come into sort of the sort of AI transformation or AI sort of, uh, operations things. [00:42:00] Um, one of the tweets that you, that you wanted to talk about, this is just me going through your tweets, by the way. Oh, okay. I mean, like, this is, you readAaron Levie: one by one,swyx: you're the, you're the easiest guest to prep for because you, you already have like, this is the, this is what I'm interested in.I'm like, okay, well, areAaron Levie: we gonna get to like, like February, January or something? Where are we in the, in the timelines? How far back are we going?swyx: Can you, can you describe boxes? A set of skills? Right? Like that, that's like, that's like one of the extremes of like, well if you, you just turn everything into a markdown file.Yeah. Then your agent can run your company. Uh, like you just have to write, find the right sequence of words toAaron Levie: Yes.swyx: To do it.Aaron Levie: Sorry, isthatswyx: the question? So I think the question is like, what if we documented everything? Yes. The way that you exactly said like,Aaron Levie: yes.swyx: Um, let's get all the Fortune five hundreds, uh, prepared for agents.Yes. And like, you know, everything's in golden and, and nicely filed away and everything. Yes. What's missing? Like, what's left, right? LikeAaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: You've, you've run your company for a decade. LikeAaron Levie: Yeah. I think the challenge is that, that that information changes a week later. And because something happened in the market for that [00:43:00] customer, or us as a company that now has to go get updated, and so these systems are living and breathing and they have to experience reality and updates to reality, which right now is probably gonna be humans, you know, kinda giving those, giving them the updates.And, you know, there is this piece about context graphs as as, uh, that kinda went very viral. Yeah. And I, I, I was like a, i, I, I thought it was super provocative. I agreed with many parts of it. I disagree with a few parts around. You know, it's not gonna be as easy as as just if we just had the agent traces, then we can finally do that work because there's just like, there's so much more other stuff that that's happening that, that we haven't been able to capture and digitize.And I think they actually represented that in the piece to be clear. But like there's just a lot of work, you know, that that has to, you just can't have only skills files, you know, for your company because it's just gonna be like, there's gonna be a lot of other stuff that happens. Yeah. Change over time.Yeah. Most companies are practically apprenticeships.swyx: Most companies are practically apprenticeships. LikeJeff Huber: every new employee who joins the team, [00:44:00] like you span one to three months. Like ramping them up.Aaron Levie: Yes. AllJeff Huber: that tat knowledgeAaron Levie: isJeff Huber: not written down.Aaron Levie: Yes.Jeff Huber: But like, it would have to be if you wanted to like give it to an Asian.Right. And so like that seems to me like to beAaron Levie: one is I think you're gonna see again a premium on companies that can document this. Mm-hmm. Much. There'll be a huge premium on that because, because you know, can you shorten that three month ramp cycle to a two week ramp cycle? That's an instant productivity gain.Can you re dramatically reduce rework in the organization because you've documented where all the stuff is and where the answers are. Can you make your average employee as good as your 90th percentile employee because you've captured the knowledge that's sort of in the heads of, of those top employees and make that available.So like you can see some very clear productivity benefits. Mm-hmm. If you had a company culture of making sure you know your information was captured, digitized, put in a format that was agent ready and then made available to agents to work with, and then you just, again, have this reality of like add a 10,000 person [00:45:00] company.Mapping that to the, you know, access structure of the company is just a hard problem. Is like, is like, yeah, well, you just, not every piece of information that's digitized can be shared to everybody. And so now you have to organize that in a way that actually works. There was a pretty good piece, um, this, this, uh, this piece called your company as a file is a file system.I, did you see that one?swyx: Nope.Aaron Levie: Uh, yes. You saw it. Yeah. And, and, uh, I actually be curious your thoughts on it. Um, like, like an interesting kind of like, we, we agree with it because, because that's how we see the world and, uh,swyx: okay. We, we have it up on screen. Oh,Aaron Levie: okay. Yeah. But, but it's all about basically like, you know, we've already, we, we, we already organized in this kind of like, you know, permission structure way.Uh, and, and these are the kind of, you know, natural ways that, that agents can now work with data. So it's kind of like this, this, you know, kind of interesting metaphor, but I do think companies will have to start to think about how they start to digitize more, more of that data. What was your take?Jeff Huber: Yeah, I mean, like the company's probably like an acid compliant file system.Aaron Levie: Uh,Jeff Huber: yeah. Which I'm guessing boxes, right? So, yeah. Yes.swyx: Yeah. [00:46:00]Jeff Huber: Which you have a great piece on, but,swyx: uh, yeah. Well, uh, I, I, my, my, my direction is a little bit like, I wanna rewind a little bit to the graph word you said that there, that's a magic trigger word for us. I always ask what's your take on knowledge graphs?Yeah. Uh, ‘cause every, especially at every data database person, I just wanna see what they think. There's been knowledge graphs, hype cycles, and you've seen it all. So.Aaron Levie: Hmm. I actually am not the expert in knowledge graphs, so, so that you might need toswyx: research, you don't need to be an expert. Yeah. I think it's just like, well, how, how seriously do people take it?Yeah. Like, is is, is there a lot of potential in the, in the HOVI?Aaron Levie: Uh, well, can I, can I, uh, understand first if it's, um, is this a loaded question in the sense of are you super pro, super con, super anti medium? Iswyx: see pro, I see pros and cons. Okay. Uh, but I, I think your opinion should be independent of mine.Aaron Levie: Yeah. No, no, totally. Yeah. I just want to see what I'm stepping into.swyx: No, I know. It's a, and it's a huge trigger word for a lot of people out Yeah. In our audience. And they're, they're trying to figure out why is that? Because whyAaron Levie: is this such aswyx: hot item for them? Because a lot of people get graph religion.And they're like, everything's a graph. Of course you have to represent it as a graph. Well, [00:47:00] how do you solve your knowledge? Um, changing over time? Well, it's a graph.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And, and I think there, there's that line of work and then there's, there's a lot of people who are like, well, you don't need it. And both are right.Aaron Levie: Yeah. And what do the people who say you don't need it, what are theyswyx: arguing for Mark down files. Oh, sure, sure. Simplicity.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: Versus it's, it's structure versus less structure. Right. That's, that's all what it is. I do.Aaron Levie: I think the tricky thing is, um, is, is again, when this gets met with real humans, they're just going to their computer.They're just working with some people on Slack or teams. They're just sharing some data through a collaborative file system and Google Docs or Box or whatever. I certainly like the vision of most, most knowledge graph, you know, kind of futuristic kind of ways of thinking about it. Uh, it's just like, you know, it's 2026.We haven't seen it yet. Kind of play out as as, I mean, I remember. Do you remember the, um, in like, actually I don't, I don't even know how old you guys are, but I'll for, for to show my age. I remember 17 years ago, everybody thought enterprises would just run on [00:48:00] Wikis. Yeah. And, uh, confluence and, and not even, I mean, confluence actually took off for engineering for sure.Like unquestionably. But like, this was like everything would be in the w. And I think based on our, uh, our, uh, general style of, of, of what we were building, like we were just like, I don't know, people just like wanna workspace. They're gonna collaborate with other people.swyx: Exactly. Yeah. So you were, you were anti-knowledge graph.Aaron Levie: Not anti, not anti. Soswyx: not nonAaron Levie: I'm not, I'm not anti. ‘cause I think, I think your search system, I just think these are two systems that probably, but like, I'm, I'm not in any religious war. I don't want to be in anybody's YouTube comments on this. There's not a fight for me.swyx: We, we love YouTube comments. We're, we're, we're get into comments.Aaron Levie: Okay. Uh, but like, but I, I, it's mostly just a virtue of what we built. Yeah. And we just continued down that path. Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: And, um, and that, that was what we pursued. But I'm not, this is not a, you know, kind of, this is not a, uh, it'sswyx: not existential for you. Great.Aaron Levie: We're happy to plug into somebody else's graph.We're happy to feed data into it. We're happy for [00:49:00] agents to, to talk to multiple systems. Not, not our fight.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: But I need your answer. Yeah. Graphs or nerd Snipes is very effective nerd.swyx: See this is, this is one, one opinion and then I've,Jeff Huber: and I think that the actual graph structure is emergent in the mind of the agent.Ah, in the same way it is in the mind of the human. And that's a more powerful graph ‘cause it actually involved over time.swyx: So don't tell me how to graph. I'll, I'll figure it out myself. Exactly. Okay. All right. AndJeff Huber: what's yours?swyx: I like the, the Wiki approach. Uh, my, I'm actually

In this episode of the Marathon Mentality Podcast, M|M sits down with entrepreneur Bryan Whatley for a wide-ranging conversation about building businesses, navigating risk, and developing the mindset required to succeed in high-stakes industries. Bryan shares the story behind his entrepreneurial journey, including how he built and scaled companies in complex and highly regulated markets. The conversation dives into the realities of starting and growing businesses, where success often depends on navigating uncertainty, learning quickly, and maintaining resilience when things inevitably go wrong. M|M and Bryan explore the psychology of entrepreneurship, including why many people underestimate the emotional and mental challenges of running a company. Bryan explains how discipline, long-term thinking, and the willingness to continuously adapt are essential traits for founders operating in competitive environments. The discussion also highlights the importance of surrounding yourself with the right people. Bryan reflects on building strong teams, identifying talent, and why trust and alignment inside an organization often determine whether a business succeeds or stalls. Throughout the episode, Bryan emphasizes that business success is rarely a straight path. Instead, it requires patience, calculated risk-taking, and the ability to learn from setbacks while continuing to move forward. The conversation reinforces a core principle of the Marathon Mentality philosophy: long-term success is built through consistent effort, strategic thinking, and the ability to keep moving even when the outcome is uncertain. Topics Covered Bryan Whatley's entrepreneurial journey Building businesses in complex industries Risk, resilience, and long-term thinking The psychological challenges of entrepreneurship Hiring, leadership, and building strong teams Adapting to uncertainty in business Learning from failure and setbacks Why discipline and consistency matter in business Key Takeaways Entrepreneurship requires emotional resilience as much as skill Strong teams are often the difference between success and failure The ability to adapt quickly is critical in competitive industries Long-term thinking consistently beats short-term decision-making

Tu bloques sur ce que tu pourrais bien raconter sur LinkedIn ?Tu ne te sens pas (encore) expert·e ? Je comprends.Dans cette Minute Marine, je reviens sur une discussion avec Emmanuelle, une consultante qui s'est longtemps tue pour cette raison… avant de se débloquer complètement.On y parle de comment développer sa boîte, même quand on ne se sent pas encore expert·e,et de quelle posture adopter pour communiquer de façon convaincante : explorateur·ice, chercheur·se, ou curateur·ice ?Et toi ?Tu te sens dans quelle posture aujourd'hui ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

If things feel excruciating in your life right that means you are very close to the finished line and that is precisely why you cannot stop, not now. Click here for the MM donation link: https://checkout.square.site/merchant/D135FAXVEN2D7/checkout/Y67QJUO2WKX5JDCDGENK7UPU?src=sheet

When I first came up for the idea for the Culture Study Romance Book Club back in January, I knew I wanted every edition to have two books: one contemporary, and one historical. Part of this desire was selfish (I personally gravitate towards historicals) but I also wanted to explore the contrast between what you can do with a romance set in the past (with its particular confines) and one set in the present (with seemingly none, but actually so many). I also knew that I wanted to start with M/M romances (hi, Heated Rivalry) and that Melody had sung the very loud praises of renowned historical queer romance author Cat Sebastian's mid-century queer romance — particularly You Should Be So Lucky, which managed to combine baseball (one of Melody's true loves) with romance (Melody's secondary love). And listeners, I hope this is clear: when it comes to so many things, but romance in particular, I listen to Melody! And when Melody asked if we should try and get Cat on the pod, I said "obvi please try." AND THEN SHE MADE IT HAPPEN. This remains a total marvel of hosting a podcast: sometimes the people you admire so deeply... can also come on your pod. This is a long preamble to the overarching point: Cat Sebastian isn't just an absurdly talented (and successful) author of queer historical romance. She's also whipsmart when it comes to the crafting of these romances, the idea of vibes vs. plot (and third act break-ups in particular), how she translates the historical record, and so much more. This pod is for you if you're at all interested in romance, obviously, but also if you're at all interested in how we think about the past as a narrative playground. Final note: We had such a good time recording this episode and laughed one billion times — I hope that joy translates when you listen! GREAT NEWS: WE HAVE VERY GOOD EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS NOW! They come out within 24 hours of the pod, so you just have to be a little patient and then come back and click here. We pay an actual human for help with these, so thank you for either being a paid subscriber or listening to the ads that make this model possible!If you're a paid subscriber and haven't yet set up your subscriber RSS feed in your podcast player, here's the EXTREMELY easy how-to .And if you're having any other issues with your Patreon subscription — please get in touch! Email me at annehelenpetersen @ gmail OR submit a request to Patreon Support. Thank you for making the switch with us — the podcast in particular is much more at home here!Thanks to the sponsors of today's episode!Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/CULTURE to find and instantly book a doctor you love today.If you're in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table, bed, or classy full-length mirror, head over to Article.com.Go to zbiotics.com/CULTURESTUDY to get 15% off your first order when you use CULTURESTUDY at checkout.Use code CULTURE at jonesroadbeauty.com to get a Free Shimmer Face Oil with your first purchase!Show Notes:As Cat suggested, the best way to keep up with her is by subscribing to her intermittent newsletter hereYou can find a breakdown of all of Cat's books and their time periods here (I found this very helpful) You can buy Cat's new book, Star Shipped, HERE!!!!A great AMA with Cat here Cat mentions the book Coming Out Under Fire: The History of Gay Men and Women in World War II, by Allan BérubéA listener mentions The Safekeep by Yael van der Wouden, and Cat and Anna enthusiastically co-sign the recommendationCat recommends: The Duke by Anna Cowan (out April 28); A Gentleman's Gentleman by T.J. Alexander; When the Tides Held the Moon by Venessa Vida Kelley; and An Island Princess Starts a Scandal by Adriana HerreraWe're currently looking for your questions for future episodes about:HISTORICAL GOSSIP! We're talking with Nichole Hill, host of Our Ancestors Were Messy, about hot, messy, ideologically fascinating world of Black gossip columns during the golden era of Black newspapers (1930 to 1960). What do you want to know about how the Black press worked during this era — and how gossip in particular worked (both about stars, local celebrities, and normal people?) There's so much here!!!HILARY DUFF!!! The comeback, the new album, let's talk about all of it — with Hilary Duff expert/forever-fan ALLIE JONES (also Melody loves Hilary Duff so much and will be very sad if we don't get enough questions for this episode) Conversion Therapy (how it affects people late into life, how it still exists, etc. etc — we're talking to Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez about his new book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, and there are so many connections to the ways the current administration is currently trying to "de-trans" people in custody) KID INFLUENCERS — what happens when your parent puts you on camera before you can really consent? We're talking with the author of a new book about the ramifications of growing up within these worlds — it's gonna be so good. Anything you need advice for/want musings about for the AAA segment. You can ask about anything, it's literally the name of the segment.As always, you can submit your questions (and ideas for future eps) hereFor this week's discussion: OH MY GOD WE COULD TALK FOREVER! If you could set a queer romance at any time, when would it be? What would your characters be doing, and how would they fill their days? Also who wants to be best friends with Cat (me)

Subscribe to our Newsletter:https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ The Shift from Attention to Trust In this compelling episode, Ashleigh Vogstad, CEO of Transcends, joins Vince Menzione to discuss the tectonic shifts occurring in the global partner ecosystem. Ashleigh shares her firsthand experiences studying AI at Oxford, the rise of the “Trust Economy,” and the controversial Amazon vs. Perplexity lawsuit. They dive deep into the practicalities of becoming a “Frontier Firm,” the importance of building proprietary AI agents, and the ways Gen Z and AI-driven marketplaces are revolutionizing the buyer journey. Whether you are looking to win Microsoft Partner of the Year or navigate the demise of traditional SaaS, this conversation provides a strategic roadmap for leading through the AI revolution. Key Takeaways The economy is shifting from a focus on human attention to a foundation of verified trust. Future commerce will involve “selling to machines” as AI agents begin making purchasing decisions on behalf of humans. Microsoft is prioritizing “Frontier Firms” that integrate AI into every customer interaction and internal process. Gen Z buyers are prioritizing product value and “dupes” over traditional brand names, with 75% of buyers expected to be Gen Z by 2030. To win Partner of the Year, organizations must publicly celebrate “better together” stories with validated customer wins. Modern leaders should transition from a “growth mindset” to a “frontier mindset” to keep pace with rapid technological change. https://youtu.be/xJmd43NvfnI If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags Trust Economy, Selling to Machines, Amazon vs Perplexity Lawsuit, Frontier Firm, AI Agents, Copilot Studio, Anthropic Claude, Microsoft Partner of the Year, B2B Marketplaces, Gen Z Buyer Behavior, Digital Freedom, AI Therapy, Ray Kurzweil Singularity, Substack Growth, Co-selling Partnerships, MCI Funding, Azure Accelerate, Agentic AI, Transcending Tech, Ashleigh Vogstad. Transcript Asleigh Vogstad Audio Podcast [00:00:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: The attention economy is about selling to human beings. Now, if you look at something like the Amazon versus Perplexity lawsuit, the whole underlying premise is around the shift of no longer selling to humans directly, but of selling to machines. [00:00:19] Vince Menzione: We just finished Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat here in beautiful Boca to a sold out crowd. Today I’m joined by Ashley Waad. The CEO of transcends for this compelling discussion. Ash, welcome back to the podcasts. [00:00:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s so good to be here, Vince. Thank you. Uh, [00:00:37] Vince Menzione: so well, we’re back in Boca again and we were just here yesterday for the Ultimate Partner Executive Winter Retreat in person. [00:00:44] Vince Menzione: What a great event we had together. [00:00:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: It was phenomenal. Thank you so much for having us there and on stage and, and genuinely the community is like a family, so seeing so many familiar faces and spending some quality time was just great. [00:00:57] Vince Menzione: It has really, truly become like family. It really, I’m, I’m, I’m having so much fun with this and getting to watch. [00:01:04] Vince Menzione: Not just our business grow and our community grow, but to see all of our friends and, uh, organizations like Transcends that have been with us since the beginning, since the very first ultimate partner acting even before the first ultimate partner. And, uh. We were just talking about. I’d love to catch up with what you’ve been doing. [00:01:22] Vince Menzione: Like you just came, you’ve been on a whirlwind. I mean, you’re always, every time like it’s, where’s Ash? She’s, uh, she’s on a plane again, or she’s on, she’s on the slopes. But tell us where you were just this week. [00:01:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. The week started in a snowstorm, actually transporting myself from Whistler. I didn’t know if I would make it to the airport, but then down to Silicon Valley and [00:01:45] Vince Menzione: Nice. [00:01:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: Wow, that place is just inspiring and eyeopening. I mean, seeing the Nvidia campus, a MD, it’s really just other worldly and it had me reflecting on, it’s [00:02:00] Vince Menzione: not Whistler. Yeah, it’s [00:02:02] Ashleigh Vogstad: definitely not Whistler. Definitely not Whistler [00:02:05] Vince Menzione: about, [00:02:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: um, yeah, it just had me reflecting on being down there. I used to spend a lot of time in the Valley around 2017 and. [00:02:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: In this theme of AI and kind of what’s really coming, I was, I was thinking about, I had met this woman, Julia Moss Bridge, who’s a neuroscientist studying ai. She had a project called Loving Ai, and I was down there when they had borrowed Sophia, this humanoid robot from S and Robotics. [00:02:32] Vince Menzione: Oh yes. Yes. [00:02:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: Really interesting. [00:02:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Sophia’s actually a citizen of Saudi. Mm-hmm. First, first robot to actually be made citizen of a country. So they had Sophia set up and the part that was just mind boggling at the time was that Sophia was hosting in real life therapy sessions with actual human beings sitting across the table. And what really struck me as. [00:02:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: Kind of just, you know, that was only eight, nine years ago. And that was esoteric. Wacky and [00:03:05] Vince Menzione: eerie. [00:03:05] Ashleigh Vogstad: Weird. [00:03:05] Vince Menzione: Eerie at the time. [00:03:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: Incredibly eerie. Yeah. I mean, a, a human getting, uh, you know, therapy sessions from a robot sitting across the table. Yeah. And it just had me thinking how far we’ve come today. In 2025, Harvard Business Review said that therapy is actually the number one use case for ai. [00:03:26] Vince Menzione: I’ve heard that. That is striking. I go back to COVID. We were having this conversation last night at at the dinner for the Ultimate Partner event, and I think that COVID allowed us to transcend, [00:03:42] Ashleigh Vogstad: mm-hmm. [00:03:42] Vince Menzione: No pun intended there, but actually accelerate where we are today, that the acceptance of AI and the acceleration, or the ability to accept change so quickly. [00:03:56] Vince Menzione: Started with COVID because we were so, so we were forced on whatever it was, March 10th I think, here in the United States to shut down everything and move to this remote life. [00:04:08] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm-hmm. [00:04:09] Vince Menzione: And I think we’ve been shocked by that. I think our systems have all been shocked by that. And then here comes chat GBT in November of 2022 and we’re like. [00:04:20] Vince Menzione: Shocked in some respects, but like really everyone has embraced it in such a strong way, and now we’re getting. It’s almost daily update. You know, we’re gonna talk, I know we’re gonna talk about Anthropic and some of the things that’s been happening just in this last month that are striking and changing that have a lot of organizations trying to navigate, which is what, you know, you, you help organizations do. [00:04:43] Vince Menzione: But it feels like this is happening so fast and will continue to happen so fast. And as I said yesterday, I don’t know what this world’s gonna look like by 2030. [00:04:53] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, and I think the thing is, is that nobody knows what the world is gonna look like in 2030. I’ve been reading Ray Kurz Well’s, the Singularity is nearer, so the original book, the Singularity is near and he’s known to be a very accurate predictionist on the future. [00:05:11] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. But even with someone like that, you know, there, there nobody really knows what the world is gonna look like. And when you talk about COVID. At transcends, we have a value of digital freedom. So I founded the business in 2018, which was pre COVID. I as a fully remote organization, and at the time that was, you know, more groundbreaking, but then very quickly with CI that, that became the so-called new normal. [00:05:37] Ashleigh Vogstad: But we’re always thinking about. You know, remote first doesn’t mean remote only, and I think in this tide of what you’ve talked about, technological change being more acceptable and the pace of change. One of the interesting things that we see as a go-to-market agency is that in-person events are increasing. [00:05:56] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:05:57] Ashleigh Vogstad: People want and crave the face-to-face. Just like with the ultimate partner series. [00:06:02] Vince Menzione: I felt it. So it was striking yesterday. It, it seems like it’s, again, this was event number nine for us, but to see the, um, uh, receptiveness isn’t the right term, but it was this, uh, people, the, the embracing. Of seeing each other and hugging each other and being in the same room with each other. [00:06:22] Vince Menzione: And even people that didn’t know each other, like by the, the, as the day evolved, this, uh, connection that they all seemed to have with one another during the sessions and participating, everyone actively participated in the sessions. And, um, I said this in the beginning, we’re not a Slack channel and we’re not like some post on LinkedIn. [00:06:43] Vince Menzione: Uh, we’re there, there’s no playbook that’s set today around partnerships or even go to markets and marketing that we could espouse and say, this is the playbook for the next year. Right. It’s, it’s changing so rapidly. [00:06:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: So rapidly, [00:06:57] Vince Menzione: and you’ve embraced it. And I, and what we’re gonna talk about right now, I mean, I, I, you know, you’ve embraced AI in such a strong way. [00:07:04] Vince Menzione: Um, personally and with your business, I want to, I wanna dive in here a little bit. First of all, a couple things For those of those who are listening who don’t know you, I think maybe just a moment about transcends and your role, and then I wanna dive in on how you’re thinking about ai because I know you’re doing some things personally. [00:07:22] Vince Menzione: I want you to share that with, with our listeners and viewers today. [00:07:25] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, great. And I just wanna comment that it was a cool moment yesterday being up on stage with yourself and Mark Monday from ServiceNow and having the audience so engaged and active and Nina Harding from Microsoft stepping up and entering the conversation. [00:07:40] Vince Menzione: So cool. [00:07:41] Ashleigh Vogstad: It just made for such a collaborative experience, which was a cool moment, but yeah. Um, so. I founded this business, transcends a go-to-market agency after being at Microsoft myself. And really our differentiation is deep strategic partnerships with hyperscalers, whether that’s AWS, Google, Microsoft, and you know, that. [00:08:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: It comes with a challenge to be on the leading edge of technology. [00:08:08] Vince Menzione: Yes, [00:08:09] Ashleigh Vogstad: it, it’s really an imperative for our business and we are an AI first firm. Microsoft talks a lot about Frontier Firm, and I’ll take a, a different kind of angle on it. You know, when I think about Frontier. I now think about it as instead of the growth mindset, I now think about a frontier mindset. [00:08:28] Vince Menzione: Frontier mindset. You have to change my principles. [00:08:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, maybe, like you said, the world is changing so rapidly. Yeah, it’s [00:08:36] Vince Menzione: changing rapidly. [00:08:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: And what a frontier mindset means is that as we’re approaching work for our clients, we are thinking about AI innovation in every single customer. Interaction, customer innovation. [00:08:49] Ashleigh Vogstad: So today we’re building AI agents into much of the work that we’re delivering for clients. And as a business owner and leader, I’ve been challenged to also think critically around how I’m choosing to run the company. And right now we’re going through a huge overhaul of where we have data sitting in silos and different applications. [00:09:09] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yep. And getting that into one place with one view so we can start layering on more insight. AI innovation. [00:09:17] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And data’s such an critical part, part of this, as we, we talked about yesterday. But you know, even the, what you said, which is, would, would’ve been striking a year ago to say, we’re an AI first, uh, agency isn’t as striking anymore. [00:09:32] Vince Menzione: Uh, we heard Nina when we were having this conversation on stage yesterday, say that it’s an imperative at Microsoft that the agencies that they choose to work with, the third party vendors that they work with have to be an AI first organization. I have to be a frontier firm, and so I’m a, I am sensitive to the word frontier firm. [00:09:53] Vince Menzione: I understand why Microsoft uses it and I understand the value of what we used to call, you know, customer zero or back in the day we used to say eating your own dog food, but essentially being an organization that has leaned in, in a way, and with ai. Even more so, so important to do it. So tell us, I know you’ve done some things personally as well, but tell, tell us what you’ve done with the organization. [00:10:18] Vince Menzione: Uh, you talked about data and making data available and having, having a true data state as opposed to silos of data, but then you also made some personal investments and sacrifices. I would say. [00:10:30] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. [00:10:30] Vince Menzione: Yeah. In terms of what you’re doing around ai, [00:10:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: so I mean, let’s start on the personal side. I’m the CEO of my organization, and you can read in books or news articles that it is critical for AI transformation to start at the C-suite and specifically in the CEO seat. [00:10:46] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:10:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: And that really. Landed for me and so I’m personally leading in About two weeks ago, I built an agent, just end-to-end on my own, got into copilot studio. Wow. Got comfortable with the interface. You know, I was clunky moving around in there at first, chose my model. You know, I went with one of the anthropic Claude models for this particular project and built up an agent that can deliver executive communications like. [00:11:14] Ashleigh Vogstad: Thought leadership blogs, uh, LinkedIn posts, but in a particular human being’s voice by ingesting things like their social profiles, their SharePoint sites, where they live and work. And it has been so surprising doing an ab test between just what a chat GBT or a copilot could produce. [00:11:32] Yeah. [00:11:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: In comparison with the authenticity of the voice coming from the agent. [00:11:37] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, it was just a really cool experience to roll up the sleeves and get in there. But also I think the, the investment that you’re referring to is, I made a big decision to return to school and uh, got accepted to go to Oxford. [00:11:52] Vince Menzione: Wow. [00:11:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: And I’m studying artificial intelligence there. [00:11:54] Vince Menzione: That is incredible. That is incredible. [00:11:57] Vince Menzione: Oxford, uh, we’ve heard of that school before here in the United States. [00:12:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, it’s been a really great experience. It’s in person, so I’m traveling there about every 60 to 90 days and living on campus. I mean, really, Oxford isn’t. Formally a campus, it’s sort of a, a city and a university all, all ruled into one and the experience has been really powerful. [00:12:21] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yes. One of the things I wanted to get outta the program was a more global perspective, and it’s been fascinating to me that about half the faculty so far, or or professors, guest lecturers that have been coming into the program have been from China or very direct experience working in the Chinese market. [00:12:38] Vince Menzione: That is fascinating. [00:12:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s been a completely different view. Or for example, you know, really digging into some of the legal cases that are driving precedence for how AI is interacting with corporations. [00:12:51] Vince Menzione: Mm. [00:12:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: One of the big ones for me has been looking at Amazon versus p perplexity. This is still a live case that’s happening right now. [00:12:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: And you know, I think it was Forbes magazine that the headline was the End of Commerce for this case because it’s really about. How human beings are being replaced with machines and hearing some of the world’s leading thinkers, leading AI researchers on these topics has just been really expansive. [00:13:19] Vince Menzione: It’s fascinating. [00:13:20] Vince Menzione: I mean, it’s, this started a couple years ago with, uh, Hollywood, in fact. Suing the industry or suing the technology companies with regards to, uh, employment, right? Mm-hmm. About the, the, uh, copyright infringement and what’s gonna happen in the entertainment industry. And I think that was just a one very small example. [00:13:40] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, voice people think about DeepFakes. Yeah. And they think about video, but actually voice is a big issue. And you look at the, um, you know, the what happened between Scarlett Johansson and her voice in her, and then open AI rolling out a voice that sounded identical. Sounds like her. [00:13:59] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:13:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: To Scarlett Johansen and, and where that went. [00:14:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s, it, this is a new ground for, for everybody that we’re going through right now. [00:14:07] Vince Menzione: It is. We can dive and go in so many different directions, but let’s talk about marketing and advertising since that’s kind of. Transcends core, and a lot of the people that watch and listen to us are in the partnership world. [00:14:22] Vince Menzione: They’re leading organizations, they own organizations, the the chief executives or CVPs of organizations. Let’s talk about advertising and where that’s going. [00:14:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, great. [00:14:33] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:14:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean, uh, I love Marshall McCluen. He’s a Canadian theor, uh, media theorist, and in 1964, he very famously said, the medium is the message. [00:14:43] Ashleigh Vogstad: And what that really means when you peel back the layers is that every type of communication medium has these inherent biases. And I think what we’re experiencing right now is this new medium of artificial intelligence, and I’m really interested in exploring what that means for the media world. So. If I gonna take you back to 1997, there’s this really famous, the Innovator’s Dilemma. [00:15:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yes. Kind of a classic business 1 0 1 type book by Clayton Christensen. Yes. And he talks about this theory of disruption where new technologies, emerging technologies start at the low end of the market. They gain this momentum and they eventually displace incumbents. And you know, sometimes seemingly out of nowhere. [00:15:28] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And Microsoft was a good example of this at that time. [00:15:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: Def, [00:15:32] Vince Menzione: yeah. [00:15:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: All the big players. All the big players. I mean, Google go for search as well, right? So that’s one of the classic examples. And so. If we look at storytelling technology, you have things like chat, GBT and Sora entering the scene. And in the beginning, you know, they’re producing a shitty first draft. [00:15:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, you know, it’s things like post-apocalyptic dogs with five finger human beings. Yeah. Things like this. But, you know, and they really lacked emotional resonance. But as we all know. That’s not the case anymore. No, it’s [00:16:05] Vince Menzione: not. [00:16:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: AI is increasingly producing content that is very powerful and is starting to resonate with people. [00:16:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, I’m definitely not a neuroscientist, but if we, we look into the neuroscience, it’s your cortical sal circuit that. Kind of is responsible for pattern recognition and it compares what you’re seeing in the real world with what you expect to see. So when you take this into a space of advertising, you know, if there’s an ad that is AI generated, that is just weird and kind of. [00:16:38] Ashleigh Vogstad: Tweaking for you. [00:16:39] Vince Menzione: Like that robot we were talking about earlier, [00:16:41] Ashleigh Vogstad: like the robot we were Exactly, yeah. Like Sophia, you enter what psychologists call the uncanny valley, so it’s like what you’re looking at isn’t exactly what you’re expecting to see and the Spidey sense is, is tweaking. You know, that’s a low place of emotional resonance. [00:16:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: This world is changing really, really quickly and we’re seeing AI generated media make huge impacts in the market Now, tools like Luma Dream Machine, I mean, it’s incredible what they can achieve today. [00:17:11] Vince Menzione: It’s fascinating. We see it in, you know, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. That’s sort of the world of our business community, and you can very easily detect when someone is doing a post. [00:17:22] Vince Menzione: Or they’re writing an art, whatever they’re doing. Right. Some type of draft of something. Uh, and you can tell when it’s ai, I mean, it’s so easy to tell, and even people are generating reports and claiming that their research papers or studies or whatever they call them, uh, and it’s AI generated and it’s just the authenticity isn’t there. [00:17:39] Vince Menzione: The, the sense that this is real. That it can be trusted is not there. And I think trust is what we’re talking about here too, as well. [00:17:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. I mean, let’s go to authenticity ’cause that’s super important. Yeah. And I know a lot of your listeners, you come from the hyperscaler world of partnerships. You need to have that differentiated, better together story. [00:17:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. It’s really important to have an authentic voice in market. And I think about that also in terms of platforms and channels. We’re seeing a decrease in certain major social media platforms, and yet Substack spiked 48% in monthly active users last month. [00:18:15] Vince Menzione: That’s [00:18:16] fascinating. [00:18:16] Ashleigh Vogstad: Um, you know, and I think that one of the reasons is it’s viewed as a more authentic channel where you’re getting thought leadership from people that you’re, you know, genuinely interested in hearing their, their points of view. [00:18:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: And I think that’s really an important piece in here. [00:18:31] Vince Menzione: Yeah, you mentioned this yesterday and you had me thinking about it as well because we have used LinkedIn for everything internally, our newsletter, which has been around for six or seven years now. But that Substack is really, and I go to Substack too, to, if I really wanna dig in on a topic. [00:18:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:18:47] Vince Menzione: And there’s a particular author that I like their point of view, I’ll follow, I’ll follow them on Substack. [00:18:53] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. I mean, and this comes, maybe brings us around to who is the buyer and who is the audience, and who do we need to be thinking about when we’re designing sales and marketing programs. And really we’re, we’re shifting into the place of the Gen Z buyer by 20 30, 70 5% of buyers are gonna be Gen Z. [00:19:12] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re gonna control 12 trillion in. Spend [00:19:16] Vince Menzione: by 2030. ’cause we, we’ve been, we’ve been saying that the millennial is the new buyer the last three years. I think Jay said it right here at this stage. [00:19:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:19:24] Vince Menzione: Um, so now it’s Gen Z. [00:19:27] Ashleigh Vogstad: And they’re buying online. Yeah, they’re buying in marketplaces. Yeah. So a stat recently was that roughly half of them made purchases on the social platforms of YouTube, Instagram, or TikTok in the last month. [00:19:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean, that buyer behavior of being inside. Social type application and directly making a purchase. And I think in the B2B world, we need to take lessons from here and start thinking more front and center than we even have been around marketplaces. I mean, part of my reason for being in Silicon Valley this week was to celebrate a $12 million transaction that happened via Marketplace and two years ago that would’ve been a huge deal. [00:20:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: Huge, [00:20:07] Vince Menzione: huge. [00:20:07] Ashleigh Vogstad: And, and it still is a really big deal, but these things are becoming. More and more common experiences. Very much so. We need to be there and in that conversation. [00:20:16] Vince Menzione: So how are you thinking about it? How are you directing your clients to behave or act around it? What are you, what are you doing exactly that we could take to this community perhaps and share with them. [00:20:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: I’ll bring it back to the authenticity piece because you need to have a product that delivers value first and foremost. There is, there is no substitution for that. Yeah, and what I would say is. One of my professors at Oxford, Eric Zow, he has this theory that I’m really digging into and finding very fascinating, which is that for the last several decades we’ve been in the attention economy, and that’s shifting to the trust economy. [00:20:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: Now the attention economy is about selling to human beings. Yeah. It’s about the, the business model is essentially that you need human being eyeballs on lists of recommendation links. Yeah. Whether that’s from Google or from, you know, searching, shopping on Amazon, you get this list of recommendation links and the economic engine that drives that business model is advertising. [00:21:19] Ashleigh Vogstad: Now, if you look at something like the Amazon versus Perplexity lawsuit, the whole underlying premise is around the shift of no longer selling to humans directly, but of selling to machines, or in other words, agents who are making purchases, s on behalf on your behalf. And an agent isn’t going to be razzle dazzled by some inauthentic story. [00:21:44] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:21:44] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re gonna be looking for third party validation on Exactly. You know, they need to be sure that they’re making the right decision. [00:21:51] Vince Menzione: They’re gonna look at surveys, they’re gonna look at customer comments. Like if I went through my Amazon site and I was looking to see what people said about the purchase or the product and specifically Exactly. [00:22:01] Vince Menzione: The agent’s gonna do this on my behalf, is what you’re saying. [00:22:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: This is what I’m saying. Yeah. And, and. I believe that to layer on top of, you know, Eric Z’s philosophy, I’ve been thinking about this in terms of the hyperscaler world, and I think that this is the time to lean into co-selling partnerships. [00:22:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, because being third party validated by somebody like AWS Microsoft and having all that co-sell data, what are your recent wins? Yes, that’s really high integrity, trusted data source for an agent to make a purchasing decision, and marketplaces are a key part of that. [00:22:35] Vince Menzione: So we’ll move from AI will take a, a more active role in the marketplace. [00:22:40] Ashleigh Vogstad: I definitely believe so. [00:22:42] Vince Menzione: Which makes total sense. I, you know, we’ve been doing this for nine or 10 years now, and when I was at Microsoft, we started co-selling. In fact, it was, uh, Aaron Feiger was up on stage yesterday talking about it. Right? January of 2016, co-selling began. [00:22:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:22:56] Vince Menzione: And there were only a few companies doing it. [00:22:59] Vince Menzione: Right. So she worked with one of the very first ones that were doing it. Uh, the challenge we have today is there are tens of thousands of partner organizations in the marketplace that are all trying to get the attention of the Microsoft sellers. Hmm. As, or the Google sellers or the AWS sellers and tell their story. [00:23:19] Vince Menzione: And a seller only has so many minutes in a day, they have a quota that they have to hit. These quotas are tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars of annual quota of cloud consumption. And I wanna sell my $50,000 widget, whatever it is. Yeah. Right. And I, I don’t understand why I’m not getting a callback. [00:23:38] Vince Menzione: And this, this is the dilemma we’ve faced because of, because of this, uh, scarcity of time and this over overwhelming of tech, you know. Tech, tech buyers trying to make this all happen, so now the AI can come in and help me solve for it as a seller, right? [00:23:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: The AI is definitely acting as an interface to make recommendations to field sellers in different organizations and. [00:24:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: To, to kind of take this on a, a tangent. Dupes. So a dupe. I know people of my generation, we’d think about this like a knockoff Right. You know, a knockoff handbag. [00:24:15] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:24:15] Ashleigh Vogstad: Dupes have exploded. [00:24:16] Vince Menzione: Fake. Fake Rolexes. [00:24:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: Exactly. The fake Rolex for sure. And I think it was in December, P WC rolled out a survey. 81% of Gen Z were planning to purchase a dupe this holiday season. [00:24:29] Vince Menzione: That’s wild. [00:24:30] Ashleigh Vogstad: Dupes can be, you know, we gave luxury, good examples, but Louis [00:24:34] Vince Menzione: Vuitton and yeah. So, [00:24:35] Ashleigh Vogstad: but furniture, these sorts of things. And the important takeaway here for tech is the same principle will land, is that people are looking for value out of a product, not necessarily a name brand. AI is accelerating this whole process, and agents are gonna be looking at the same thing. [00:24:56] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re looking for that authenticity in terms of the actual product value. So, you know, beware there’s lots of disruption happening in the market right now with this dupe mentality, which is actually a cultural shift talking about I appreciate value over a superficial. Brand name. In some cases, there’s also a, a small contrary trend where certain luxury goods are rising because yes, things are never that simple. [00:25:22] Vince Menzione: So you work with a lot of these tech companies, a lot of SaaS companies, is we, we call them ISVs, we also call them, uh, software development companies. Now we keep changing these acronyms around. Uh, there’s been a lot of, uh, consternation in that segment, I would say, around ai. Right, because a lot of them are getting told that they’ll be outta business in a few years. [00:25:43] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. I think Satya Nadella famously said this last year that SAS will go away. Right? He’s predicting the demise. How do you help some of these organizations to differentiate? And there’s some of these are huge value organizations. We have have them in the room with us, ServiceNow and Veeam and Adobe. [00:26:01] Vince Menzione: Um, how do you help them achieve their results? ’cause that’s what you, you know, your organization is really helping these organizations to achieve their pinnacle as a partner. What do you, what do you say to them now and how do you help them through this time? [00:26:16] Ashleigh Vogstad: I’m on the side of the fence that I really can’t see an organization ripping out something like Salesforce, Adobe, ServiceNow. [00:26:24] Vince Menzione: Agreed. [00:26:24] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean that the amount of change management and. The extent to which these, these platforms are embedded, actually running and operating organizations. I personally, if, if we’re calling those companies, SaaS companies, I don’t agree that that layer is gonna go away. I mean, we’re seeing these organizations lean into AI in a huge way to borrow Microsofts. [00:26:50] Ashleigh Vogstad: Term, you know, they’re all becoming frontier firms. [00:26:54] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:26:54] Ashleigh Vogstad: So where I would go to, to answer that question, we do work with many, you know, organizations on that caliber, on things like their marketplace strategy on how to light up the fields of different hyperscalers. It really does come down to things like having a strong drumbeat with the Microsoft field, celebrating your win stories. [00:27:15] Ashleigh Vogstad: Maybe that’s where I’ll land as Please do the marketer, because it sounds so simple, and I don’t know why we kind of continue to come back to this, but we’re talking about that third party validation and really, um, in order to have that, like what the hyperscalers want is you jointly celebrating success. [00:27:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: Here’s the kicker. Publicly. [00:27:38] Vince Menzione: Publicly, [00:27:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: you know, you need a customer story on your website, a press release that contains a quote from your customer. Ideally, also a quote from an executive at one of the hyperscalers. Like, actually lean in to live the value of your better together story. And when you do that, when you, when it comes around to partner of the year time, and we talk to you about, okay, what client stories are we gonna feature? [00:28:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: We’re even gonna know because when we Google you, we can see the public press of the joint wins that you’ve been celebrating. And I can tell you that that is a huge indicator on whether or not you’re well-placed to be in the 4% of partners who actually win Partner of the Year award’s. [00:28:20] Vince Menzione: Fascinating to me. [00:28:21] Vince Menzione: ’cause to me it would feel like table stakes maybe ’cause where we sit is ultimate partner and where this room sits with all the top partners that I just assume that everybody follows that. That, that guidance. [00:28:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:28:34] Vince Menzione: And so this is really impactful and I want to get here because I know you spent a lot of time here and we’ve talked about it before, but I think the partner of the year awards, when we first met many years ago, that was a you, you’ve expanded the business, but that’s still a core mission and and value that you bring to the community and to the partner ecosystem is helping them through this process. [00:28:55] Vince Menzione: So I know that that’s gonna be coming up soon, so I thought maybe we’d spend a couple moments on that. [00:29:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: Partner of the Year awards, regardless of which partner, I mean, Salesforce has their own awards there. There’s more and more award programs coming out, and they’re a great way to celebrate the incredible work that your organization has done. [00:29:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: Jay McBain is brilliant on this. He’ll talk a lot about the increase in valuation. Yeah. The, the increase in stock valuation or the likelihood that if you’re looking to be acquired, that you’re acquired within 12 months of a partner of the year win it. It’s really impressive. There is strong business value there. [00:29:33] Vince Menzione: He like, he likes, he likes to tell the story of that when the award is handed to them and they go back into the audience, that the private equity people are all over them right then and there and making offers. I mean, that’s the visual that you get [00:29:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: and it’s very powerful. Yeah. Very powerful. It’s very powerful and it, it can make it worthwhile to invest in the process, but don’t invest in the process if you haven’t been investing in the process for the 12 months. [00:29:57] Ashleigh Vogstad: Prior, [00:29:58] Vince Menzione: exactly. [00:29:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: The Microsoft field or you we’re talking about Microsoft Partner of the Year Awards. They need to know about your win that that needs to be top of mind for them. Yeah. How much Azure revenue is it driving? Was it a huge marketplace? Build sales and. You know, one of the questions I get asked a ton, everybody wants to know how do we get money out of the hyperscalers? [00:30:20] Ashleigh Vogstad: How do I get access to marketing development funds or all these different programs? Yeah. You know, at Microsoft, some of these programs are like EI and customer investment funds or Azure Accelerate, you know, and there’s millions and millions and millions of dollars in these, these buckets of funds, but. [00:30:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: An interesting point of view is that it’s actually a scorecard metric for many people at Microsoft who have partnership roles for you to be drawing down those funds. [00:30:45] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:30:45] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, your interests are actually aligned here, and so again, when it comes to Partner of the Year awards, how much money have you pulled down? [00:30:54] Ashleigh Vogstad: How much have you been an activating partner of key Microsoft programs that they’re pushing? What are you doing with marketplace rewards? How are you resing? Those into your business. These are the types of things that you really wanna be thinking about. Sitting it. You know, this time of year we probably will get the awards were likely be due in July. [00:31:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: They haven’t officially announced timelines, but you’ve got a few months to start moving these pieces into place. [00:31:18] Vince Menzione: And there are quite a few of them. And to your point, Nina, when she was up on stage here yesterday, there were at least 10 or 12 award. Uh. Funding categories that were on her, that were on her slide. [00:31:31] Vince Menzione: Her partner, her partner slide. So, [00:31:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: and what great looks like for a partner is that you understand your end-to-end funnel as it is mapped to Microsoft’s SEM model, the Microsoft customer Engagement model. Mm-hmm. The first stage there, inspire and design. That’s really the marketing space of lead generation. [00:31:50] Ashleigh Vogstad: So how are you generating leads with webinars, in-person, event activations, digital campaigns, and then at the very end, in the fifth column, you have the Microsoft outcomes that you’re driving. Yes. Whether that’s Azure consumed revenue, marketplace build sales, co-pilot, monthly active usage, these sorts of things. [00:32:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: And in each of those SEM swim lanes. There’s Microsoft funding associated to it. And that’s one of the things that Nina Harding was showing yesterday. When and where does it make sense to make requests for EA funds versus Azure accelerate the MCI funding? There’s different workshop proof of concept funding, and those all fall at specific stages in that EM model. [00:32:33] Vince Menzione: And what you’re also pointing out in this conversation is that the co the partners need to understand that mm, they need to understand MM. We talked about it years ago. I’ve had, haven’t had anybody on stage recently talk about m You could probably take us through that if we wanted to devote some time here, uh, and then understand all of those categories and how to access those funds. [00:32:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, it’s critical and. The number one place we point partners, if you want a quick overview of what that looks like is to Microsoft’s FY 26 solution playbooks. Nice. They’re available on the web for download. There’s, well, there used to be three, but they’ve added a few agen being, being one. So, so there’s a handful of, they had [00:33:11] Vince Menzione: simplified it, now they’re, now they’re expanding it back again. [00:33:14] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, exactly. I think there’s now a breakout for security as well. Yes. So take a look at those playbooks. It will map programs and incentives very specifically to each solution area and to each sales play that are gonna be available to you. And then we’re always happy to guide people through the details [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: as well. [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: I love that. I love that. And reach out to the. Ashley is just amazing at this process. I’ve, I’ve watched her for years now, work with some of the top, what have become the pinnacle partners of Microsoft and with the award season coming up. So we wanna make sure we have a plug there. But I also wanna talk about like, podcasts with you. [00:33:50] Vince Menzione: Um, you’ve been on this podcast multiple times, been in the studio before doing this, and I understand you have your own podcast now. So tell us about that. [00:33:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, Vince, I just wanna say. As a friend and a mentor. You’ve been so inspiring. Thank you. And I think from years ago when we met, there was this seed in my brain of, you know, I, I should really get out there. [00:34:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: And you talk a lot about growth mindset and fear setting is, is one of Tim Ferriss’s terms? Yes. And models. [00:34:21] Vince Menzione: I love Tim Ferris. I’ve been, been a fan of his for 10 years now. So that’s settled. We all got started with this. Sorry. Sorry, I [00:34:26] Ashleigh Vogstad: interrupt. No, no, not at all. [00:34:27] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:34:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: And. I think it’s just been, it’s been back there. [00:34:31] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. That I’m really passionate around having voice is how I think about it. And as a marketing agency, we’re really amplifying the voice, um, or helping companies to find their voice, particularly in hyperscaler partnerships. And what better way to assist, you know, authentically the amazing people in our network, in our community and our clients than with our own channel where we can celebrate their stories and success? [00:35:00] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:35:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: So the podcast is called Transcending Tech. It’s about [00:35:06] Vince Menzione: very cool transcending tech. Just so you don’t [00:35:08] Ashleigh Vogstad: transcending tech. [00:35:08] Vince Menzione: It’s out there now. [00:35:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: It, we just released our first episode. Okay. I think two days ago. [00:35:13] Vince Menzione: So by the time we’re live, yes. We’ll, we’ll be able to access it. Good. [00:35:17] Ashleigh Vogstad: You will be able to access it. [00:35:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: The first episode is with Alyssa Fit. Patrick from Elastic. [00:35:21] Vince Menzione: Oh my goodness. [00:35:22] Ashleigh Vogstad: And the concept of the podcast, it’s long form and it’s really about getting to the people behind the platforms. [00:35:29] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:35:29] Ashleigh Vogstad: And to the stories that transcend technology. So we’re here to get to know the human beings behind. Agents. [00:35:38] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:35:38] Ashleigh Vogstad: And taking the time to, to go in deep and really explore that. [00:35:43] Vince Menzione: So I am excited to see all the developments here with the, with the podcast. And you’re gonna be joining us again. You were just here, you in Boca. But you’ll be joining us again in Bellevue. Not too far a little bit. Closer ride or travel, uh, for you to come to Bellevue. [00:35:57] Vince Menzione: We’re gonna be hosting the first ultimate partner live, which is our larger events in this beautiful facility, this new Intercontinental hotel, which is fabulous. And, uh, you’re gonna be taking a more active role. Your leadership around AI is. Palpable and we’re gonna love to have you on stage and talking through some of the changes. [00:36:17] Vince Menzione: I, I suspect by the time we get to Bellevue we’ll have a lot more to talk about. That hasn’t even happened yet. [00:36:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, I’m really excited. I’ll have been through my next cohort at at Oxford, kind of coming out hot from there back to the Pacific Northwest, and really excited to just share the learnings and Awesome. [00:36:35] Ashleigh Vogstad: Genuinely. It’s also helping me in my own research, really formulate particularly around the role of ag agentic AI in hyperscaler partnerships. [00:36:43] Vince Menzione: That’s so cool. And then what I’ll say is this, and I don’t know, we on the space perspective, and I’ll, the team will probably hang me for this because we haven’t done it yet, but if you wanna bring the podcast along with you, there might be, we’ll see if we can find an extra room for you to set up. [00:36:58] Vince Menzione: If you wanna do some interviews while you’re. In, at the event. So [00:37:02] Ashleigh Vogstad: you’re so generous, Vince. [00:37:03] Vince Menzione: That’s [00:37:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: amazing. [00:37:04] Vince Menzione: Thank you. Again, I can’t say for certainty yet, but, uh, let’s see, let’s see what happens with that. So, uh, let, let’s, uh, you know, I always, we, we have known each other for years and I just assume everybody knows this amazing Ashley sda. [00:37:19] Vince Menzione: But, um, we always, I like to ask this question because it helps us kind of dig in a little bit about you personally. And it’s my favorite question. I ask all my guests this question now, and it’s, um, you’re hosting a dinner party, Ashley, you are, pick a pace, place, you wanna have this dinner. We could talk about parts of the world. [00:37:36] Vince Menzione: You’ve traveled all extensively. Uh, and you can invite any three people, guests from the present. Or the past to this amazing dinner party you’re throwing. Whom would you invite and why? [00:37:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s a beautiful question, Vince and. Instantly I go to a place in terms of the location, since you asked that part, which was surprising. [00:38:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: I, I like that is my home. I, I love where I live up in Whistler, Canada and [00:38:08] Vince Menzione: I hear it’s beautiful. I haven’t been yet, [00:38:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: it’s so gorgeous and it’s, it’s my own sanctuary. You know, I live on a plane 75% of the time and coming back to that place is really grounding for me. Yes. So, so I would love to have it at, at my home and to invite. [00:38:24] Ashleigh Vogstad: Pippa Malrin would be one. She, Pippa [00:38:26] Vince Menzione: Malrin. [00:38:27] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. She’s sure. I get an advisor to the White House for many administrations. Okay. She’s an economist and she just has really interesting perspective on geopolitics. Uh, I follow her on Substack ’cause she’s a big substack. Okay, now [00:38:41] Vince Menzione: I need to look. This is awesome. [00:38:42] Vince Menzione: The [00:38:43] Ashleigh Vogstad: mal, she’s fantastic. I would say Dr. Lisa Sue, the CEO, Dr. Lisa of a md. [00:38:49] Vince Menzione: Okay. Yes, yes. I know a little bit about her. [00:38:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: So she was one of Time Mag, I think she was the only woman in Time Magazine’s, group of people of the year, which was basically this AI cohort in including, you know, the Elon Musks of the world. [00:39:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, it’s just so impressive what she’s doing with leadership in a MD. I don’t think it’s as public as. Anybody else who is on the cover of that magazine, but it’s incredibly powerful. [00:39:14] Vince Menzione: Yeah, they’ve made a com uh, turnaround’s probably not the right word, but it seems like they’ve made a tremendous, uh, gains turnaround probably in the last few years. [00:39:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: I would say that many would say turnaround. And then lastly is Dr. Fefe Lee, who. For those in the AI space, particularly AI research space. I mean, she’s arguably number one. Um, she’s leading at Stanford currently. [00:39:37] Vince Menzione: Wow. This is gonna be a heady conversation, but you know, I love conversations. So if you don’t mind, maybe I’ll bring dessert and come, come in for a few moments, maybe do some podcast interviews there. [00:39:48] Vince Menzione: How’s that? [00:39:49] Ashleigh Vogstad: That sounds absolutely perfect, Vince, [00:39:50] Vince Menzione: so, so good. So good to have you here today. So great. Good to have you in the studio again, and, uh, excited for transcends and all the great work you’re doing. Um. This time with ai. I think you, uh, we talked about this a little bit last night. I think you’ve made some really wise, personal and professional decisions about how to lead and how to take this forward and not kind of rest on your laurels, which you see so many organizations do People fear change [00:40:17] Ashleigh Vogstad: Hmm. [00:40:18] Vince Menzione: And you embrace it, which is just, it’s astounding to me that you do that and, um. I look forward to working with you in the future and for years and years to come. So I will ask you one more question though, because we are still at the precipice of these tectonic shifts and we’re still early in 2026. And so for our listeners and our viewers today, what would be the one thing you would tell them that they need to go do now that possibly they haven’t done yet as they prepare for 2026 and beyond? [00:40:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: The generic phrase would be, be curious, but if we want an action, it would be go build an agent. [00:40:59] Vince Menzione: Go build an agent [00:41:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: if, if you haven’t already. Yeah. And, and I’m, yeah. Speaking hopefully to like a business audience, you know, to, to anyone. Yeah. Really, um, find something that is interesting that you’re passionate about. [00:41:12] Ashleigh Vogstad: A, a use case that it doesn’t have to be some big thing. It could be quite mundane, but just something that’s gonna help you in your role. It’s, you know, what is creativity is an interesting question, and I can tell you that sitting down and hands-on keys and actually creating something is, is a beautiful, powerful experience. [00:41:32] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Awesome. All right. We’re all gonna go create agents this weekend, so thank you for listening. Thank you for viewing the Ultimate Guide to partnering on our YouTube channel, ultimate Partner, and on each end of your platforms at the Ultimate Guide to partnering. Thank you for being with us and supporting us all these years. [00:41:50] Vince Menzione: Thank you. Don’t forget, ultimate Partner Live is coming soon, May 11th through the 13th in beautiful Bellevue, Washington. I hope to see you there.

Mm, smell that? We're cooking up a storm in the etymology kitchen, and PIE (Proto-Indo European!) is on the menu! We're also serving a Hiram roast and piping hot internet takes, so come hungry and bring a Tupperware— we made a LOT!Find us on instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/gettingdownandwordy/And email us at gettingdownandwordy@gmail.comHuge thanks to Patsy Walker for the use of our theme song “Who's Wordy Now”!This week's promoted podcast is Thick Thighs & Creepy Vibes. Find them anywhere you get podcasts or at this link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thick-thighs-and-creepy-vibes/id1736179086Find them, us, and lots of other great podcasts on our podcast network podmoth.network

Learner is the ability and commitment to continuously seek new knowledge, skills, and perspectives—and to apply them to improve oneself, one's team, and organizational outcomes.             "Once you stop learning, you start dying" Albert Einstein   Heather Bayer is a trainer, consultant, and long-time champion of helping businesses grow in ways that feel both sustainable and human. With more than three decades of experience across hospitality, customer service, leadership development, and short-term rental management, she's known for turning complex ideas into practical, approachable strategies teams can actually use. Today, Heather helps organizations thoughtfully integrate AI—not as a shiny add-on, but as a tool that supports people, strengthens systems, and creates breathing room for teams to do their best work. Working closely with leadership teams, she cuts through the noise around AI, designs realistic workflows, and builds the confidence needed for adoption to truly stick. Known for her warm, story-driven teaching style, Heather meets teams exactly where they are, helping organizations build smarter processes, stronger cultures, and environments where people and technology work beautifully together.   Favorite snack is trail mix with big M&M's   Heather Bayer Vacation Rental Success podcast LinkedIn Facebook Instagram Music-"Homesick" Copyright 2018. Written by Shireen Amini. Produced by Shireen Amini and Mike Davidson of Plaid Dog Recording (Boston, MA).

In Episode 8 of Allegedly Sports, M|M and Tom Schneider break down Super Bowl fallout, the early NFL offseason, and one of the most honest quarterback conversations you'll hear all year. The episode opens with a Super Bowl recap — why the game felt flat, what Seattle did better, and why one loss doesn't erase a strong Patriots season. The conversation dives into Drake Maye's late-season play, experience vs. expectations, and why defensive performances often get ignored when offenses struggle. From there, M|M and Tom shift to NFL offseason chaos: franchise tags, massive cap hits, and how teams actually recover from quarterback contract mistakes. The heart of the episode is a deep discussion on QB “retreads” — evaluating players like Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Mac Jones, Kyler Murray, Justin Fields, and more through the lens of opportunity, coaching, and pressure rather than media narratives. The episode closes with thoughts on the NBA All-Star Game, why competitiveness finally returned, and what the dunk contest is missing without real stars. Real debate. Real context. No hot takes.

農曆年假結束，M平方再次祝大家新年快樂，馬年開工大吉、馬尼多多！ 本週美股延續年假期間的行情，科技股反彈但是軟體股還是處於很辛苦的狀態，當然還有川普的關稅違法的雜音以及美伊僵持的局勢等等的事情仍然在進行中。而台股在經歷年假的休息後，本週開紅盤創下歷史新高，站上 35000點，台積電突破了 2000 元大關！ 本集就邀請台灣研究員 Jat 與美國研究員 Ralice 來聊聊，開紅盤後，台灣跟美國兩邊的情況！

Frazer Rice and Bram Weinstein, the “Voice of the Washington Commanders,” discuss the shift in sports media for entrepreneurs. The current state of sports journalism is in flux, especially with the decline of the Washington Post’s sports section and its implications for local coverage. We explore the opportunities that come from this void. (Including the potential for new media ventures and the challenges of monetizing content in a fractured media landscape). The discussion also touches on the future of the Washington Commanders, the importance of audience engagement, and the evolving nature of podcasting and digital media. https://youtu.be/O0syDGcSkvU https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Ut9QRj7X9QD1pGEA6y6qt?si=39nLO2reQ8SK_nj0zenzDA Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com⁠) Takeaways The Washington Post’s sports section closure is seen as a significant loss. There is a growing opportunity for new media companies to fill the coverage void. Monetizing media ventures requires innovative strategies and diverse revenue streams. Podcasters face challenges in gaining audience traction and monetization. The Commanders’ future depends on effective roster changes and health improvements. Engagement with the audience is crucial for media success. Digital platforms like YouTube provide exposure but limited revenue. The media landscape is rapidly changing, requiring adaptability. Local sports coverage is essential for community engagement. The importance of maintaining journalistic integrity in a changing media environment. SPORTS MEDIA FOR ENTREPRENEURS CHAPTERS 00:00 The State of Sports Journalism 02:59 Opportunities in Media 06:07 Monetizing Media Ventures 09:05 Navigating Podcasting Challenges 11:59 The Future of the Commanders 15:06 Engaging with the Audience DISCOVERING BRAM, THE COMMANDERS, AND AMPIRE MEDIA BRAM on SPOTIFY AMPIRE MEDIA ON YOUTUBE AMPIRE MEDIA WEBSITE Transcript of “SPORTS MEDIA FOR ENTREPRENEURS” Frazer Rice (00:00.686)Welcome aboard, Bram. Bram N Weinstein (00:02.551)Hey, Frazer, how are you? Frazer Rice (00:03.736)Doing great. The last time we spoke it was about three days before the Chicago Hail Mary, so I’m viewing that as good luck. That must have been something having to call that game. Bram N Weinstein (00:14.071)That was part of the most magical season I’ve ever been a part of. Not only first ever for the franchise, but 12 and five, NFC championship game, hadn’t done that in a generation. It was pretty incredible, yeah. Frazer Rice (00:28.652)No, as a skins fan, now commander’s fan, it’s been a long time, but it was a wild ride. One of the things that’s happened recently, which I know strikes near and dear to your heart, and frankly, for people who grew up sort of following it, has been, I guess, kind of the evisceration of the Washington Post sports section. And it’s got all sorts of impacts. But from your perspective, How do you make sense of that and what does it look like going forward for a city essentially that has all the major sports and the major paper not really covering it? Bram N Weinstein (01:09.719)I don’t make sense of it. I don’t understand it. I think at its core, The Washington Post is two things. It’s one of the most important publications in the world as the paper of record in the most powerful city in the world and the democratic center of the world. But it also is a local newspaper for one of the top 10 markets, top five markets in the country. And the idea that it would not cover its sports teams, or Metro desk, which, I know, you know, for our purposes, we focused a lot on the sports desk being shuttered. The Metro desk is too. So the Washington Post not covering the mayor’s office, city council meetings like in especially in these political times where, you know, the district budget is held by the federal government. To me, it doesn’t even it doesn’t compute that that wouldn’t exist. as far as like the sports section goes, which I think is like the lesser of the two real problems with this, but obviously is a real problem is, you I think for me, it feels like a death. I grew up reading the Washington Post. A lot of the reasons why I wanted to do what I wanted to do was through osmosis of reading Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon and Tom Boswell and all of the great writers that came through the Washington Post. And I just don’t really understand how it’s not within the business model to be part of this. At the same time, you know, it does open opportunities for entrepreneurs like myself who have media companies and are always looking for new talent and always looking for openings. And I can tell you that void is going to get filled. But I do think it is sad that the Washington Post could not figure out a way to modernize itself to allow its coverage to continue for its loyal readership. This is a local paper that isn’t covering local news. That is astoundingly terrible in terms of a business practice to me. Frazer Rice (03:14.317)It’s weird because from my perch here in New York, I work across the street from the New York Times building and there’s a little bit of sort of guffawing that the New York Times has turned into a gaming company and sort of a media company second, which has helped to subsidize its continued commitment to long form journalism. But even then, I mean, it’s really focusing on arts and leisure and cookbooks and wordel and all sorts of things like that. And it’s a shame that the Washington Post either couldn’t pivot in that direction or otherwise make sense of things. Bram N Weinstein (03:48.727)Is the business model of media the same that was no. so there are a few things that play here to be fair. I’m not asking Jeff Bezos to lose money. You know, like, or just be the beneficiary to subsidize something, but you do bring up a point, which is. And I read this quote recently from, the old ownership group, the Graham family, who basically said. “You know, the newspaper is a grocery store. Like you are supposed to go in there and pick all the different things that you want. And hopefully there’s something for everybody or hopefully a number of things for everybody. And in modern times, the New York Times has done a very good job of putting together a new modern grocery store for people. So there’s a variety of different things that does subsidize the important work that it does. And in the end, like to me, the New York Times and the Washington Post and maybe the Wall Street Journal. Are the three most important newspaper entities, if you can call them that, in the United States of America. And for one of them to not understand their role in protecting democracy, in covering our world, in informing the readership, whether it’s locally or nationally, to me is an absconding responsibility. So I don’t know what the answer is. Again, I’m not like demanding Jeff Bezos just…money to keep things subsidized. Like it is a business and I understand that, but there must have been better ways to go about it or maybe, you know, sell it to someone who does have ideas because it’s important for its foundations to remain intact. And so I just, you know, for me, it’s, been hard to digest, honestly. And like to your original question of like, like, how do you make sense of it? I really don’t. I don’t make any sense of it. Frazer Rice (05:39.692)Well, you also now have a fledgling media company and I’m a devourer of yours and Kim’s and Standix podcasts and I learned something from it each time. I see an opportunity there if major component of the media establishment in the area is abdicating its role, not only to the major sports that aren’t getting covered as much. There’s an opportunity there. But even like the local hotbed sports like lacrosse, they’re completely ignored, I would imagine. And that might be a way to sort of get some grassroots component going. Bram N Weinstein (06:17.195)Yeah, we also here with my company Empire see the opportunity, unfortunately, but we do. And there’s a lot of talent that is available. There is a void in coverage. We know, you know, the size of our community, the appetite for sports. And so, you know, I don’t want to say too much, but we are actively seeking partners to expand in a pretty large way if possible. So Frazer Rice (06:24.045)Right. Bram N Weinstein (06:46.067)We’re working towards that and I’ve been working towards that and moving very fast in the hopes that we’re not the only ones thinking this like you. There’s a lot of people thinking there’s an opportunity here. I wish it wasn’t the opportunity that it is, but it has presented itself and it’s an opportunity that we intend to see through. So we are actively speaking to a number of different interested parties about funding a major expansion of what we’re doing. Frazer Rice (07:11.379)Really cool. Well, I’ll be sure to keep an eye on that as it develops. When you’re thinking about sort of the money making aspect of it, we don’t do things for free and it’d be lovely if we all had time and disposable income to do that without giving away the playbook because you’re raising money and you don’t want to give that up necessarily. But how do you think about that in terms of delivering value for sponsors or advertisers or the general audience? Have you made any…sort of commitment strategy-wise there. Bram N Weinstein (07:42.197)Yes, digital audio video forward. You know, I also believe in enterprise journalism. I also very much believe in long form journalism, but the audience appetite for it is limited. And so you do have to subsidize it. And that comes in the form of a number of different properties repurposed for different platforms in various ways, podcasts, video shows, YouTube. All offer opportunities to monetize the same content. I have been studying very closely the things the New York Times has done and thought about what kind of engagement tools would be necessary to be an added perk for those who would end up probably subscribing to a situation like this. So there are a lot of different types of financial models. One is subscriptions. in a variety of different ways, whether it’s premium content, newsletters, one of them is obviously advertising, which would come with YouTube or different streaming channel, streaming network, podcasts, obviously, sponsorship, which could go across the board for all of the different categories. And, lastly, live events. And this is something that we are very capable of doing as well. So there are a tremendous amount of different models to make money. None of them are easy. And because the audiences are so fractured, I think you have to find ways to make financial streams in the same content in various different forms. But we’re willing to do that. And we’ve already kind of done that with what I’ve done with Empire on a very limited role, which is why we think we’re ready to make this expansion and move. But we need an investor to buy in and to the investors, I would say to them, we intend to make you money and we intend to be something that could be purchased in a three to five to 10 year plan. So we understand the importance of making sure that the investment is paid off in the end as well. Frazer Rice (09:52.205)Cool. Are you thinking about expanding into other subject matter areas? you’re in DC, so politics, guess, would be a natural fit. Right. Bram N Weinstein (09:59.965)Not really. And I wouldn’t personally, like, I just don’t feel like that’s my expertise. So no, but like, could we be something like the ringer where you’re looking into culture, you’re looking into arts, music, dining, those types of things? Yeah, I think like that’s something I’m not sure that I would move fast into a realm like that. Like we see the void in sports coverage for this marketplace. We would like to fill that void. And whatever we do after that would be dabbling in those spaces to try to, again, find new ways to find new audiences. But we want to go with our core products first. And certainly for me personally, the politics world is completely above my pay grade. So I’m out of that. Yeah. Frazer Rice (10:46.028)It’s above everybody’s I think if anybody could figure it out It’s it’s one of those Rubik’s cubes that it’s not worth solving oftentimes So, you know one of the things I don’t know if I’d struggle with or I’m Would like to expand on my front is just getting my podcast out to more people and the concept of discover ability and one of the strengths that I think you have Is you know your current position in traditional media with the commanders? Keim has it a little bit with ESPN, Ben Stendig has it with his Substack, which isn’t traditional media, but there’s different outflows on that front. How do you view that competitive advantage in terms of getting the message out and almost having a bit of a head start over some of the other possibilities out there? Bram N Weinstein (11:30.175)Yeah, well, I think there was always like, you know, for the podcast world. Yes, anybody can do a show and you know, they could be good. The reality is, though, you know, the people who already have stakes in the marketplace, at least from name value, are always going to have a head start. It’s going to come down to how you market yourself and how you go about getting your show out there as much as possible. The reality is you need some level of a robust social presence to get to as many eyeballs or ears as possible. And if you don’t, then you typically have to kind of go down a paid route of making sure that it gets into algorithms. And so it’s a hard climb, like for sure. You know, like when podcasts and kind of open the gates for everybody, same thing with YouTube, like Frazer Rice (12:14.54)Mm. Bram N Weinstein (12:23.444)You know, there’s going to be a lot of success stories. There’s going to be a lot more people who are either doing it for love of the game, but not for money. And that’s just the reality of how much time any person has to give up to content. And secondarily, who can get to enough of an audience to make it worthwhile? As you probably know, you need thousands of downloads to really make any kind of real money at all on a podcast episode. Getting to thousands of downloads. doesn’t sound like a big, like if I said, you have to get to a thousand, like a thousand doesn’t sound like a lot for one episode, but it’s way harder to do. wager a guess that 90 % of podcasts do not reach 1000 downloads per episode. So it’s a very hard number to reach. And if you really want to make money, money on it, we’re talking about getting 10,000 an episode. Sure, anybody like myself that has various different platforms I can use to promote my own shows has a head start in that manner. And that would always have been for anybody in traditional media who had a following to start with, if they were willing to jump into the digital side quickly, they were always going to have a head start because they already had an audience that was built in. It was just converting them. Frazer Rice (13:39.572)You know, and for me, the conversion isn’t so much, you know, buying pillows or mattresses from the advertising that comes on the show. I don’t have any advertisers. The ROI for me is, in a client, one client, maybe listening to it and then calling up. And all of a sudden that pays for everything, in sort of my day job. Bram N Weinstein (13:52.992)Yes. Bram N Weinstein (13:57.813)Yeah, well, I think you’re actually looking at it the right way. Like, could your show end up having a big audience? Yeah, of course it could. But like, the reality is for most people who are doing podcasts for the other purpose, which is either marketing, client curation, branding, like those have extraordinary value to like my company’s done a lot of B2B type podcasts. And I explained this, you know, to them, and most of the people I work with aren’t looking, they don’t think they’re going to be Pat McAfee. But like, they understand that like, The value in doing this well is going to get paid back exponentially in client curation, marketing, entering new market spaces, expanding business opportunity, because it done well, it can really have that kind of benefit for you. Frazer Rice (14:43.563)How do you make sense of all the different platforms that are out there? You know, I converted to video because ignoring YouTube meant basically ignoring Google and I was like, well, that’s dumb. I know, Spotify’s out there. iTunes has just converted to video. And then you’ve got all the different podcasts, platforms, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. How do you, it just seems like it changes weekly in many ways as to what’s in favor, what’s not. When you’re making a bet on your company, how do you deal with that? Bram N Weinstein (15:06.996)Yeah. Yeah, think. Yeah, it’s hard. Things have changed a lot. Like, for the most part, we double up our podcasts now and they’re taped on video. So they’re disseminated with not a tremendous amount of production value behind them. And of course, you know, used as audio podcasts as well. So it’s a two in one situation. And we find that YouTube. The advertising dollars there are very small, but the exposure, not unlike when we were talking about kind of marketing yourself, the exposure of being there, if you can get thousands of views, often offers up a lot of different opportunities. Sponsors prefer to be visually seen than just audibly heard. So like in both of those cases, they can be beneficial. like we don’t frankly make a lot of like we have on YouTube. We only have two primary shows with Empire Media that are on YouTube on our channel. We have about 18,000 subscribers now and we get on an average month like 127,000 views between just the two shows, which is a lot, know, especially for like a niche thing where we’re really just talking about one thing, the commander. So we’re like, we’re not expanding out much more than that. So it’s a very niche thing and yet we’re getting a really, really sizable number. Frazer Rice (16:11.787)That’s good. Bram N Weinstein (16:25.15)If I told you how much money we get paid for that, you’d laugh like it’s it’s pennies on the dollar. But the exposure of having it and the amount of views and impressions that it generates gets us sponsorship opportunities because people want to be part of that. And that’s where the real opportunity comes with YouTube. As far as like using Facebook Live, IG, like TikTok, I suppose. Like. I don’t know, like I don’t think you can be everywhere. I think the idea is to try to be, I think you’re talking to different audiences on each of these things. So I don’t think it’s one size fits all. And it has to be worth it. For me, it has to be worthwhile. Like, is there a reason why we’re there other than we’re just trying to get people but if there’s no benefit of a carryover beyond it and it just happens to hit their feed, but we’re not getting any sponsorship money out of it or any activation out of it? Well, then what was the point? So I’m always looking for right places to be. But there has to be an incentive structure that makes sense, either true carryover audience growth or obvious sponsorship opportunity. Frazer Rice (17:32.076)The cost of coordination of all of that too starts to overwhelm. I know you’ve got a schedule to keep here. I would be silly not to ask about my commanders a little bit. Two new assistant coaches, offensive and defensive coordinator, lots of changes coming in terms of personnel and hopefully sort of a rethink of Jaden and hopefully a lot better health going into next year. But… Bram N Weinstein (17:36.17)Yes. Yeah. Frazer Rice (17:59.84)Potentially better division in many ways, how do you see things going forward? Bram N Weinstein (18:04.71)I don’t know what their team looks like yet. So this is like a hard question to answer because I think they’re going to be very aggressive in free agency and then obviously they have the seventh overall pick. I kind of need to see what their roster looks like before knowing. I you know, David Blough been here the last couple of years. He is one of these very young, very impressive people. I’m glad they kept him in the building. It’s a big ask to jump from where he was to go to offensive He at least is talking a big game like he’s ready for this and I hope he is, you know, like we’ll have to see. I think a lot of it will have to do with the quarterback stays healthy and that just didn’t happen a year ago and the whole team didn’t stay healthy. So they fell apart and you know, like I don’t think health was the only reason they had the record they had, but I think the health made it worse than it could have been like their record probably would have been a little more respectable if the health wasn’t as bad as it was. Hopefully Jayden stays healthy. He’s fine now. So hopefully he stays healthy and on defense Deonte Jones. This is his first opportunity doing this but he’s actually been in the league for 20 years and he’s worked with every almost every major defensive coordinator up until this point So he feels like someone that’s been overdue for an opportunity. I like the system He’s coming out of does he have the personnel to win with I don’t think right now and that’s why I’m like Let me see what they do in free agency. How much money do they spend at what positions? How are they looking to upgrade that side of the ball? And if they bring in what I think will be two, three, four new starters, whether it’s via the draft and free agency combined, then I think we could have a different conversation about what I think it’s gonna look like, because I kinda need to see what the roster looks like first. Frazer Rice (19:44.691)No, there’s so many holes in the free agency component. Not to pin you down on a record going into next year, because we don’t even know what the components are going to be. To that end, as you said, the injuries were a real problem. Everything that possibly could go right in 2024 didn’t in 2025. How does that work over the course of time in terms of regression to the mean? Is just every season completely different or is there something that carries over? Bram N Weinstein (20:19.542)So 2023 was nothing like 2024, which was nothing like 2025. So we’ve had a roller coaster for sure. Um I last year was a surprise like. If you had told me the beginning of the season look like the schedules too hard. They had too many injuries. They went 9889 didn’t make the playoffs. I would have believed you. You know, like it’s just things were just harder to try to replicate. I didn’t expect what ended up. So can they flip that back around and be more competitive again? I do believe so. I also agree with something you said, which was. Right now and again don’t know what the teams look like exactly yet, but I do think the division on the whole will be better. The Giants will be better coached for sure. They have a lot of defensive talent and we’ll see if Jaxson Dart takes another step. And if that’s the case, the Giants may be more formidable than they’ve been in 10 years. The Eagles are still going to have a very, good roster. No matter Frazer Rice (21:04.938)Mm-hmm. Bram N Weinstein (21:16.106)Whatever they do this off season, even if it includes moving off of a couple of primary people, they still have an extremely strong high level roster. And I like how the Cowboys pivoted from Micah Parsons. I know it hurt them last year, but I do like what they did in the return that they got since. So they play their cards right. They could be in line to really make a jump back this year. Like they’re the ones that feel kind of ready to me. If they play their cards right and if they don’t end up, which is the second part, which is never they avoid, they never avoid this. They turn themselves into a circus. So if they could ever stop turning themselves into a circus, I think it would serve them. You know, I think it would be a very positive outcome for them, but their owner doesn’t live in that world. He likes to be a ringmaster. And, you know, I think that that’s probably more than anything been the hindrance to them winning a Super Bowl over the last. Frazer Rice (21:55.004)You Bram N Weinstein (22:14.422)30 years, they’ve had good enough teams to do it. They just don’t and I think they get in their own way. But you know, maybe this year’s a little different for them. Frazer Rice (22:21.364)No question. Alright, how do people find Ampire and sample all the different media that you’re putting out there? Bram N Weinstein (22:31.766)YouTube is Empire Media AMPIRE. We have our YouTube page. You can find that there. My show is under my name, Bram Weisside Show. John Keim Report covers the commanders and Last Man Standing is Ben Standing’s show. And who knows, maybe in four to six months, we’ve got some new offerings. I’m hoping that’s gonna be the case pretty soon. Frazer Rice (22:51.466)Terrific. Thanks for coming on, Bram, and rootin’ for your success. Bram N Weinstein (22:55.414)Thanks a lot. Take care BRAM on “WEALTH ACTUALLY” three days before the JAYDEN HAIL MARY Keywords: sports journalism, Washington Post, media opportunities, podcasting, Commanders, monetization, audience engagement, digital media, sports coverage, media landscape Titles The Decline of Sports Journalism Seizing Media Opportunities https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/

Why is it so difficult for doctors to delegate, even when it so obviously impacts the team? Kiera and Dana discuss the art of delegation, and where it overlaps with clear expectations and accountability. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and I love when I get the consultants to podcast with me. And today I got the one and only Dana,   I actually have a better nickname than Danie for you. I've like upgraded. I really do think you're Dynamite Dana. And so welcome to the show. Dynamite Dana. Like you just are dynamite in so many ways, so many areas. People love you. I know people are like donuts with Dana. That one was really catchy and clever, but I think like dynamite Dana is who I'm going to stick with. So how are you today there? Dynamite Dana.   The Dental A Team (00:27) Doing good. I'm glad you found one that felt right.   The Dental A Team (00:29) I mean, I still love Dainty   so much and that will probably always forever remain. ⁓ But Dana, truly you're a dynamite consultant and I've watched you evolve and it's like, ⁓ you were on the podcast with me last time where you took a practice from negative profitability to multi profitability in just a couple of months. And I think the dynamic and dynamite ability you have so like dynamic doesn't feel as cool as dynamite, but it's because you're this dynamic player and you're able to help teams, help doctors, help offices.   The Dental A Team (00:33) You   The Dental A Team (00:58) And really it's, think like role clarity, like really focusing on top priorities. And I think that that's like the clutch piece of consulting. If I like boil down what two consultants do differently is yes, we have this like Mary Poppins bag of tricks, but I think the piece is we know which Mary Poppins tool and prioritization and piece based on the numbers, based on the goals need to happen. And I think you're very, very dynamic and dynamite and being able to do that. So excited to have you on the show today.   The Dental A Team (01:26) Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. I haven't podcast in a while with you, so it's going to be fun.   The Dental A Team (01:31) great time girl.   think our last one was talking about your transformation practice. So today's gonna be fun because I think that this is a topic you and I see often is like   doctors struggle, teams struggle to delegate and they struggle to have like role clarity and I'm even guilty of this. Like I've watched myself like it's crazy when I have these podcast topics and I'm like hi it's me I know I'm the problem I know I'm hanging on to these issues I know I'm causing this chaos and so I kind of wanted to like talk about   why doctors struggle to delegate, why we get into this like bottleneck, and then what it can look like on the other side and how we've been able to help doctors. Like, I know you've got a couple in mind. I've got a couple in mind of what does it look like when we start to trust that process? So Dana, from your perspective, why do you feel like doctors don't delegate and we like bottleneck and we hold on or like owners and founders and office managers? Like, what is that? Like we know we're bottlenecking. Like it's annoying to me. I'm like, I know I'm having a temper tantrum and I don't know how to stop it. Like I know I'm not delegating. I know I'm holding on. know I'm freaking   like failing over here. What, like, why do think this is a rift? What are your thoughts?   The Dental A Team (02:32) I   I will say I feel like Dr. Personality is like a doer, right? They're so used to like to get to become a dentist, right? You have to have succeeded thus far in life. And I do feel like that in order to kind of get where they are, they've had to kind of always do right work really hard, hit the books really hard, hit the clinic really hard. And so I do feel like it's kind of ingrained in them just as humans is that they want to do all of the things. And I also think that there's a misconception of leadership. And being a good leader means doing all   things, making all the decisions, having everyone lean on you for everything.   The Dental A Team (03:07) Yeah, I love that you say that because ⁓ there's a book that, gosh, I should look up the name of it. mean, like, I really will actually, guys. Like, if you're watching, don't worry, I'm ⁓ looking this up right now. ⁓ But it's like the founder mindset. And I think so many of us, it's the founder's mentality, how to overcome the predictable crisis of growth. And I think about this book often because like you said, it's a...   what you have always done won't get you where you need to go. And like those habits and those patterns and the different pieces, it's this, like you said, like you had to work hard in dental school. You guys, watched you. Like I worked at a dental college. ⁓ We watched you be this person. And also there's a perfectionist piece of you literally are working in such small areas. Like the mouth is so small. You have to be perfect. You can't have that. Like, I mean,   shoot, you barely move that burr wrong and you're nicking the tooth next to it and you're like, dang, and now gotta like patch this thing up. Like you really do have such a small, finite controlling area. ⁓ But I think it's ⁓ a space of, we all know, Dana, it's like, logically, I know that if I delegate and I trust my team, my life gets better. So what do you feel like it is? Like, how do people actually let go of the vine? Maybe I'm asking for coaching for myself.   The Dental A Team (04:18) Yeah, and I think some of the hold back   is they might have tried to delegate something in the past and it didn't go very well, right? Because there's an art to actually delegating and delegating that is successful and setting real clear expectations. And so I find like, well, I've tried, right? But the person it fell through the cracks or there wasn't an accountability piece built in. And so I think it's like learning truly how to delegate correctly and delegate so that pieces come back to you and you're not chasing down the thing that you   thing that you gave because if you have to chase it down, if you have to check it, like it's still on your plate then, right? That, that it still hangs over your head if you, if those pieces aren't in place. And so sometimes I think too, it's like they have had a past history of trying to delegate and it's like not failing, but feeling like, I should have just done it anyway.   The Dental A Team (05:09) Totally. And I think as you said that like, I'm into now the how of like, okay, I hear that I agree. And I, it was funny, Jason, I, call it like tub talk, like think tank talk. Like we go out hot tubbing, we don't take our phones. It's like really beautiful and shoot, it just snowed. So I can't wait to get out there and like go hot tubbing in the snow. ⁓ it's a really magical world, but we were talking about it and I realized we're using a recruiter to help hire some team members for us that I'm really excited about that are like far out of my league that I don't even know how to hire. So   ⁓ brought in some executive recruiters for that. And I remember they were asking me, they're like, Kiera, what's going to break your trust the most? And I was like, I know actually, like for me, and so team members hearing this, the number one thing, and Dana, I'm saying this because you are not this person and I'm going to highlight you, I think there's also a space when doctors delegate to make sure the person we're delegating to is right person, right seat. ⁓ For me, I've learned that the way I lose trust the most is when people tell me they're going to follow through and they don't. Like I'm very, because I just feel like,   then don't do it. I get they have best intentions, but I'm more obsessed about outcomes and you delivering rather than you just taking a million things on to make me happy. ⁓ And so I thought about it, like, who are the people that I trust implicitly, like on our team and Jason, I'm not going to like do the role of X day. And I'm that's like unfair. You'll get to hear the like behind the scenes, Jason and Kiera talk. One doctor, he was like, Kiera, if I could just be a fly on the wall to hear the conversations you and Jason have. And I was like, I don't know if you want to know them all. ⁓   But I thought about it I was like, okay, my core crew that I really do trust, like what is it and how do I delegate to these people? Like Dana, I know, and this is why I called you Dynamite Dana and Dynamic Dana is Dana, I know with out of doubt, I can give you clients and you're gonna deliver and you're not gonna let me down and you're gonna follow up, you're gonna have scorecards, you're gonna show up to the coaching calls, you're going, like I never have to come and check in on you to make sure you're delivering to clients. Now, you may need help, that doesn't mean they're not gonna be like never asking, but I know you're gonna hit those deliverables. If I give you a project like, hey, you're gonna present,   Never in my mind have I been like, uh, Hope Dana is going to show up on that. Like I know I can count on Dana to be there. She's going to follow through. If she's got questions, you're going to proactively ask me. It like, I can give you tasks that they don't come back to me. Now there's other team members where I'm like, I feel like I'm playing whack-a-mole. I'm like, uh, did you check on that? Did you check on that? Did you check on that? Like, and I've noticed my anxiety is like lit to the next level. And I think as you were saying that and office managers and team members, I hope you hear this loud and clear.   This is the fastest way to break trust and not have a doctor trust you. And truth be told, like I'm going to just call out team members, not even just doctors. You're also being the bottleneck because your doctor doesn't trust you to give it to them. Now, doctors, there is a way for us to not take it back on. ⁓ But I was just, as you said that Dana, I think that there's a big space of doctors make sure that like, if you consistently have a person who's not following through and not delivering back to you, stop trying to make that person fit. Like just call it out of what it is and say, like, listen, this has to change. And if it doesn't, I recognize you're not right person.   Like Shelbi, ⁓ she's a kick-a personality for being that. She never lets anything slip through her. mean, Dana, she is on us like sticky. It's like, hey guys, where's this at? Where's that? But she's so nice about it. And there's just certain personalities that are that way. And then there's other personalities that are like more creative and you don't need them to be in. I don't need to delegate all that. Like they can have different projects. And so I think when you look at it, make sure that the person, and you can also look at people's personality profiles. There are some that are like detail centric.   They should be your operations. should be your office managers. They should be your billers. And then you're going to have people like myself. That's a little less on details, but I'm a dang good treatment coordinator. I don't need to have as many things. I just need to hit a goal. Like it's less confined versus an office manager. So I think also like picking people that are the right people for that. Dana, I talked a lot on that. What are your thoughts on that?   The Dental A Team (08:48) No, I completely agree. I do think it takes the right person in a seat and then once you have the right person clearly defining their role because sometimes too it's like who does it who has the capacity for me to delegate this to right and I think that sometimes things get lost because we ask the person that we always ask and yes they do but then we stretch them so thin things start to fall through the cracks because we haven't said hey is this something that you really feel like you can take on so it comes down to just like you said that trust that open communication and so I think   Role clarity helps delegation. It also helps like where does it make sense? Right? I'm probably not going to ask my biller to do treatment follow-up calls, right? I might probably ask the person that's working to my schedule or the treatment coordinator herself. So I think that all of these pieces, sometimes it's hard to like link when I'm like, okay, well, let's get clear job roles. Well, how does that help me delegate? Right? I think linking all these things together can really help a doctor see how   The Dental A Team (09:39) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (09:45) easy it can become and not just for doctors like yes this is for the doctor that holds on to everything but for leads that hold on to everything for oms that hold on to everything this is just a really clear path for you to see do i have the right person in that seat is their role really really clear and who has the capacity to take on anything that comes up or something that you want to take off your plate   The Dental A Team (10:08) Totally. And Dana, as you said that something, our Dental A Team is in like such a fun transition or like we are, think Dana's feeling, our whole team's feeling it like we have gone from what Dental A Team was to what Dental A Team is becoming. And I'm super excited. We're going to roll out like a state of the company. Dana doesn't know it yet. Like it's coming. Like I can't wait. I know she's feeling the buzz around it, but I recognize as a leader that sometimes you've got to call out what was and where we're going. And   our team went through a, what I've called like a snow globe freaking shake. Like we decided like, let's just throw all the confetti, shake every person into different spots. And it's like, Britt's in a different role. I'm in a different role. Shelbi's in a different role. Thinking as like consultants, like Dana, you pretty much stayed the same, but like everywhere else around us, we just like ripped change tour and we built an accountability chart and we had to really say like, okay, what are the seats that the organization needs without names on it? What are the tasks that realistically should go under here?   And then like, let's look to see what open roles we have, who fits in what spots. And I remember we had a leadership meeting in September of last year. And who I remember, Britt was sitting at the table, Tip was at the table, I was at the table and Britt looks me across the eyes and she's like, Kiera, I just want to highlight and recognize that what you're about to go through and what I'm about to go through, Shelbi, Tiff, this whole leadership, like it is going to be a shake and it's weird. And we all actually like Dana hasn't seen it yet. You're about to get your PDF version come next week. ⁓   of our accountability chart, because right now it is that like, who does this make sense? Like I have normally gone to Shelbi because it's easy and Shelbi and I were working on like fees and different things. And I realized like, well, yes, I used to do that. Shelbi actually needs to be an EA and needs to fully be in that role. And Britt's over finance now and I need to go to Britt. So it's just like, we are constantly like pull out the legend. call it like, let's look at our big legend over here. Like who should this task be under? But I actually think that helps with delegation. And then the team actually is empowered to say like, Hey,   is this my role and not in a combative way, but like, let's make sure that instead of us just going for easy paths, we're going to the correct people. And then those roles actually have KPIs and then you got job accountability below it. So I think like, if you don't have something like that, and this is where like org chart and accountability chart, they get harped on. I recognize like operations people, they come in, they're like, marketers love to give me a growth plan. Like, cool, I hear it. It's like top to the funnel, down to the funnel. Operations people love to give me an org chart.   And what I've noticed though is if you have that clarity of who does what delegation becomes much easier and accountability holding to becomes easier because we can pull out the paper and I'll be like, Britt, it says right here online, like squint your eyes. It's right there. Or we're like, okay, here's a process. It's not on anyone's plate. Let's look to see under which seat going to your capacity thing, Dana, which seat does this make sense? And can they take the capacity today or what needs to shift so that way they can.   But also I remember Tiffanie, ⁓ she was like, you guys have never told me what my full job is. So for me to say I have capacity during hot, I don't even know what it all encompasses. And so ⁓ as I worked with offices, as I worked through our own company, I will say accountability charts and org charts need like an update like every six to 12 months. And we relook to see are there additional tasks because businesses innovate, they evolve. mean, Dana, what you were starting to do versus what you're doing today, it has evolved. Everyone evolves and   I also think like we noticed when we were going through it, we have a VA who's amazing. Everybody loves Joash on our team. Shout out to Joash. ⁓ And we happened to notice that like we needed somebody over in marketing and marketing. were going to go hire somebody and we're like, Whoa, Joash has like 75 % of his time available right now. We could actually deploy him over in marketing and make that tour. That gap can be filled. And so I think like even in consultant world Dana, like you probably are like, Hey, I actually have space. I could take on more projects if you guys need. And this is how it's a   right seat, right role delegate, but then look at all the other players and like, Dana, you got really great strengths and some areas. What if we deploy you in this? So that way your leaders are not, especially as organizations grow bigger, let's deploy and use our team players to the highest level of clear job and also capacity. I think like then accountability is not as hard because we're not inundating just two or three people, but gosh, like as I say, all this, is an evolution of practice. ⁓ Tiff, Britt, Shelbi, and I were all talking like,   It's been the core four for a long time. Like we've just done everything and we're like, we now have 17 team members having four people try to do like a one. I mean, we're not even using half of our team. And yet the co like the top leaders are drowning. It's just an evolution. And I think that this is where bottlenecks revisions having an outside person come in and see it helping you guys elevate really just paramount. And so I'd say like quick steps are get that org chart. Like Dana was saying in the accountability chart.   figure out where the gaps are and who should it go under, not name, but position, and then put names in and see where gaps are and who could we pull in to help out. Like you said, and then you get the job descriptions that are super clear. And then we start holding accountable to that job description. It's very easy when we all see it, got it, and getting the whole team bought in. I'm not going to lie. It's taken us like four months to get here to where whole team's going to see it. There's been a lot of shifting and shaking and making sure we have it right. And then letting the team know it's going to evolve.   But just giving clarity, but even for me, I now know who do I go to, who do I pass this task to? It becomes so much easier to delegate and get rid of those bottlenecks. Dana, that was so much knowledge. Like welcome to behind the scenes. You get to learn firsthand on the podcast, you're welcome. like thoughts about that as a team, as a consultant, like what do you see in that?   The Dental A Team (15:23) Thank   you   I love that and just like kudos to you here in the leadership team for just always trying to map out those pieces and I do feel like as a team member I think it's important for doctors leaders to understand like team members most team members if you have right people right seat like we talked about in the beginning most team members want to grow they want to do a really great job they don't want to let you down when you give them a task and so this is just a pathway that   Create success for everybody. You can get those things off. You can hold accountability You can do all of those things with success and your team members get to elevate themselves grow within their position grow within their skill set And so it's just like a win-win overall for everyone when it's done this way   The Dental A Team (16:15) Yeah, no. And Dana, thank you for saying that. And thank you for the reminding. I think sometimes ⁓ when you have like one bad apple or one bad experience, I think as a leader, even myself, I don't know, my brother-in-law, was a, he's like this really big wig and build like these most incredible homes and all that. And I remember when I got married to Jason 15 years ago, I was like, gosh, Jay, your brother's always so grumpy. And I'm like, I get it. Businesses can pick at you and almost like take away that naive   innocence of how much people are great and you might see the dark side of humanity in spite of the goodness that you see. And I think for me, Dana, like you saying that it's like, no, that's a good, that's a good remembering and reminder for myself of team members really do want to make your life awesome. Team members really do love you and they want to rally around you and they want to be great and they want to grow and they want to evolve. They just sometimes need to know like, what is it you want? And also empowering team members like, can't wait, Dana, we're going to show this and   I'm excited for team members to look at this and be like, Hey, like raise a hand. Like I got space. I can help in these areas. Like this is where you use collective brains to help out, but team members like falling through. ⁓ but I also think like owners don't lose faith in like the goodness of your team. And, sometimes they'll drops. It could be a wrong person, wrong seat. It also can be. There's a lot on that person and we need to like deploy or clarify to make it easier. So Dana, let's talk real life. I know you have some offices. I got some offices.   The Dental A Team (17:42) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (17:44) Let's talk about   like how, what does it look like when it's doing it well? ⁓ How does it feel for offices? Like, let's just kind of go through that.   The Dental A Team (17:52) Yeah, I think the biggest word that comes to mind when offices do this really, really well is just freeing, right? To have that trust in team, to know that you're going to give them something and that like you also have something in place that's going to show you that they are continuously doing it without having to track them down every day, without having to add it to your calendar. It just creates so much balance in a team and it just creates this freeing   sort of like innate trust amongst each other that like, yeah, we're gonna be able to keep a pulse on it. We're gonna check it for sure, right? We're going to trust and verify, but we've built in all of these pieces and getting to this point, right? It's not without a lot of work, right? And a lot of digging in together as a team and saying like, hey, we want more accountability. We want more responsibility. We want these pieces. We want the office to be successful. And I think once an office has it, it truly, truly is.   balancing, its alignment, and it's like freedom.   The Dental A Team (18:54) Mm-hmm. And I think for me, I feel often like I'll speak to the leader side. I sometimes like I'm the monkey who's got my hand in the trap holding on to the nuts so hard and trying to like get free and I can't and all I need to do is let go. And I think that there's a surrendering, there's a grace there's, ⁓ but I do also believe that teams rise to the level you believe they're capable of. And so if I'm sitting here like, they're going to let me down. We, we find what we focus on. And so.   Why don't I look to see how are they winning and what are the gaps and do we have a clear KPI where everybody knows like this is my number. I can't freaking wait Dana. I worked on it last night. I'm super jazzed. It's going to be a good time. But like even helping our consultants know like we've evolved. So what is it that like we expect our clients to be getting in the first 90 days, 180 days, 365 days like Dana, when you first started with me, I was like, good luck, go out there, do something fun.   But as we've gotten bigger and as we've evolved and we've evolved and we've attracted different clients, that needs to evolve. So what do your dental hygienists need to do? And what do your dental assistants need to do to win? And what does your front office, what does winning look like and making it so simple? So we have our top level of this is our number of accountability. This is what winning looks like. Then below that we have tasks of all the different tasks that are there. And what are the core processes? Do we have those documented and dialed in?   This is an evolution of business, but this really is like how you're able to delegate through role clarity. And like you said, Dana, there's freedom, there's alignment. Going through it, keep saying, at first I said, I feel like I'm an orange being squozed, Jason. I feel like we're trying to make oranges. And I was like, actually, I lied. feel like I'm an olive being pressed right now. We're not getting a whole squeeze out of this. It's like a drop by drop by drop. But I think if you can see the end result.   and you have a coach or a guide or someone who's been through it with you, I think it makes it so much easier. And Dana, I know you've got a client right now that you've been pushing on this. This client, I love so much. But just walk us through like a little bit of a glimpse in like, and of course, change of details so people can't figure out exactly what client it is. We'll peel back, we'll give you a couple, we'll mash them together. But like peel back how this doctor went from where they were to where they are today and what that looks like for this doctor.   The Dental A Team (21:07) Yeah, I think this is a doctor that just went through a practice transition where they took over a practice and you know, I think a lot of times when that happens, it's like you do want to be involved, you want to feel like you know every piece, you've got your hand in every piece, you're making all of the decisions. And then there comes a point in time where I usually say it's like the like six month year mark, where you realize like, crud, I can't continue to do this and not feel burnt out. So it's just been really fun to see them find the right people we   The Dental A Team (21:25) Thank you.   Yeah.   100 %   The Dental A Team (21:37) worked this entire last year on stabilizing team, finding the right people, finding good people, not rushing those decisions. And then when we realized they weren't the best people, right, making those decisions quickly too, because that can be stressful for everyone. And so it has been really fun that now that there are right people in right seats, like   being able to trust people to make decisions, being able to say, no, that's somebody like my office manager can answer that pushing team members to go to leads and something as simple as I use this as an example, they locks had to be changed at the office, right? A lock broke. And so all the locks had to be changed. And this doctor was just going through a lot personally and was out and the OM just made the decision called the locksmith, chose the locks, had them all replaced, like covered, like paid the bill all   The Dental A Team (22:12) Thank   The Dental A Team (22:26) of things. And I cannot even tell you just like how grateful how amazing it felt. ⁓ And just how it like opened the window of you know what? Yeah, when I let people make decisions when I let them do the things that I know I can trust them to do what a weight it takes off even something like that small.   The Dental A Team (22:47) That's.   The Dental A Team (22:48) And ⁓ I just remember on our call about that, it was just like a light bulb went off and it was like, the more and more I can do this, the better things are going to be. And everything worked out. Everything was fine. Was it maybe the exact lock like that he would have chosen? Maybe not. But at the end of the day, the building's secure, everything was handled and he didn't have to do it. He didn't have to come in on his day off, didn't have to do it. And it was just a really cool epiphany to see after the   last year that he's been through.   The Dental A Team (23:19) That's amazing, Dana. And I think like, as you say that it's crazy because I can coach this and then living in it. It's such a funny zone. Like I feel annoyed. Like I said before, it's like, can see that I'm throwing a temper tantrum and I don't know how to stop it, but I see it. And I think being aware of it is number one. And number two, I think it's really, ⁓ for me, at least, and again, my team listening will know I'm not perfect at this. So like, this is an evolution of Cure. And I'm not here to say like, I'm great at this today. It's an evolution. ⁓   And I think again, it's from founder, right? A founder or a new owner, like you got to do it all. You really do. And then it's like, my gosh, this got too big for me. Like I can't do it all. I'm up at two in the morning. I'm going to bed at 10 PM. Like this is not sustainable. And also for teams it's not, but I think it's this crazy piece. Like you said, what things do I really need to have an opinion on and what things can I be like, awesome, you did it. And like empower that team member and be so proud of them. And I think as we evolve, a lot of times we feel like   No, no, no, I need to be in control of everything. Like I really do. Like I need to pick the locks. Like that's out of budget versus I think if we can scale ourselves back and say like, that was actually awesome and kudos to them and train yourself to see how they did the right thing and how they did the best thing. And even if it's not your exact way, when you get a team that's running, they will actually be better than you will be on your own because you are evolving the whole, like the whole piece.   You as a leader need to set the vision. You need to say, here's where we're going. Here's the budgets, here's the parameters, and then truly trust your team. And I say that to myself, I say that to you, I say that to everybody listening, because I think it's a constant reminder until it becomes a habit and a personality. Like we're asking you to be like, okay, ⁓ I really love strawberries. And now I'm trying to get you to really love tomatoes. Like, they're both red. It's a different way of operating. It's a different method.   So we're gonna choose that. She's like, you have two wolves. You can feed the scarcity or the abundance. And which one am I feeding today? I'm gonna feed the one where I delegate, I trust, I empower. We have the pieces. But I also think Dana, like at the beginning, I do think some thought process behind like, let's get an accountability chart. Let's get job descriptions. Let's make sure everybody knows their KPI. And I think that sometimes that prep work is tricky. And then let's make sure we're really hiring the best people to do the job. Like...   I think there comes a space in business where at the beginning you hire and you gotta like grind it out. Like people don't know, we're trying to like make them into like, Hey Dana, welcome to being a consultant. Let's train it up versus like, Hey, we can hire consultants that have been consultants. Like there is an evolution. And I think at the beginning, yeah, rock on, you're going to be a lot more involved, but as you evolve, you're going to start to hire people that are just as good, if not better than you are and trust and let them run, ⁓ while still verifying and checking in.   You either choose to do that or you choose to hold and both are both are available, but it depends on what's your ultimate goal. And I think if you can focus on that, focus on the team you want and expect them to rise to that occasion. I watched it in organizations and I'm watching it in myself. Like truly it's amazing, right? People write C and clarity teams evolve and doctors feel a lot better. So any other thoughts, Dana? I know that was kind of a very fun, how you delegate, how you delegate it properly. And also like   how happy that doctor was like, shoot, I didn't even have to do that. That's incredible. What other things are they capable of as well? And kudos to that office manager for just like, I think like just taking the bull by the horns and be like, I'm going to do this and you're going to see that I'm awesome. And I'm going to win you over. think kudos to that office manager too.   The Dental A Team (26:47) Yeah, it was really fun to see.   The Dental A Team (26:49) Yeah. All right, Dana, as we wrap today, I think it's doctors teams like don't get stuck in the trap of not delegating. And just because it wasn't right before, let's look to see why wasn't it. Was it wrong person? Was it wrong path? Get your accountability charts in place. Get the map, get the rollout, get the KPIs, get the meeting cadences, like checking in with your leads every single week can really help get this cadence moving forward. You're not perfect. We're not looking for perfect, but we are looking for that evolvement. Not as much like sitting around your neck, but really empowering your team.   and rolling it out and continue to evolve that what you had before is not what you need today. And if you need a coach, mean, Dana does this, I do this, our team does this. This is what we live for is to make you and your practice like truly flourishing and thriving. So Dana, Dynamite Dana, thanks for being on the podcast today. I always appreciate it, you.   The Dental A Team (27:34) always a good time. Thanks for having me.   The Dental A Team (27:36) Of course, and for all of you listening, reach out if we can help. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on The Dental A Team Podcast.  

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Key Performance Indicators (or KPIs)! By establishing KPIs in your practice, you find ways to remove the emotion that doesn't need to be there. Tiff and Kristy explain how KPIs drive a practice — and how to implement them if you haven't started yet. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back again today and I say we again because I've got Miss Kristy here with me. You guys know how much I love her and podcasting with her is just, I told her today, like I just, you bring a sense of calm and it's great and letting it be on a, like Thursday afternoon, this is kind of cool for me ⁓ and ending my week. I've got, you know, we've got things to do tomorrow, ending calls with this is really, really cool. So Kristy, thank you so much for being here today. How are you?   The Dental A Team (00:29) Good and you?   The Dental A Team (00:31) I'm good,   thank you. ⁓ I'm... I was gonna say that, like what the heck? I'm so glad you're here though because, you know, this time last year you were here in snow and ice and I'm so glad you're here but it is cold and I heard you guys, record these, this is January right now, it'll be released in February but it's like so cold. It's like 43 degrees in the morning here and us Arizona women are just not used to that so.   The Dental A Team (00:34) It's cold for Arizona.   The Dental A Team (01:01) I agree and there's supposed to be ice and snow coming, not for us, we get rain, thank goodness, but I'm like, that's why we live here, so we don't have to deal with ice and snow. yeah, puts a little damper on travel, so we'll see. We'll see how that goes, but I am glad that you're here. This is the time of year that everybody comes and visits. February is a massive, massive time to be in Arizona. In March, we've got spring training games going, we've got...   Waste Management Open, we've got, oh my gosh, every weekend there's a taco festival or something going on. So this is the prime time to be in Arizona. If you wanna come visit, tell us that you're coming and we'll be happy to give you some suggestions. Kristy, we talk about these a lot and I'm excited because I know you actually thrive in this world a ton. You make decisions based on these. are phenomenal at projections.   four practices and the world of KPIs, which you guys, for those of you who don't know, key performance indicators, those are the indicators within your practice that tell you how you're performing. I had years and years and years ago now, like way too long to even count, I had a manager one time and she said, Tiff, I want you to start joining the KPI meetings on Thursdays with the CPA doc and I. And I said, okay. And then I ran over to my computer and I was like, Google, what is KPI? What does KPI mean? I was like, I'll be there.   That sounds great. This is like growth for me. You're putting me in. I was like, yep, I'll be there. And then I was like, what does this mean? So if you don't know what it means, you're not using them, you are not alone. I had to Google that once upon a time. And that was before Chat GPT. I feel like I would have been so much better off if I had that to break it down for me. But alas, here we are. And Kristy, I love KPIs. I love black and white decision making. I love any opportunity we have that we can remove some emotion.   from a decision, especially in the dental industry. We have a lot of emotions in the dental industry and being able to remove those and say that yes or no something is or isn't working. And my favorite piece of that is when we do that, Kristy, I think it gives us the opportunity to tackle the system and not make it personal about the person. Like it might not be that you suck.   it's that the system's not working or we're not using it correctly. And if that's the case, I'm fine. We start using it correctly or we alter it. But I think, Kristy, it makes me feel a lot better about accountability and about KPIs and just about leading teams when it's less about a feeling and a person and more about the system. So I'm excited. Kristy, tell me, why do you love KPIs?   The Dental A Team (03:41) Yeah, for the same reason, Tip, because so many times we see people focused on the wrong thing. And when you really dial into the metrics, they start to tell a story, right? And sometimes even metrics can look a little bit deceiving, but that's why I like to say the numbers start to tell a story. And then we get to dig into it and figure out the story. So, you know, just in saying that, I think if I wasn't doing what I was doing, I would be some kind of detective. And I mean,   The Dental A Team (04:09) I think   you would too.   The Dental A Team (04:10) Maybe that's why it's so exciting for me, but like, and it's truth, right? The numbers don't lie. And so a lot of times we have misperceptions on things and that's the human aspect. So to give grace on us, and I also feel like what we measure expands, it grows, right? And so if we're focused on the wrong thing, what do we get more of? And so,   The Dental A Team (04:33) Mm, true.   The Dental A Team (04:40) I just think it's the fastest way to make improvements. And it's kind of funny Tiff, because in other things we do, if we want to lift weights or we want to lose weight, what do we do? Get on the scale or we're like, we lift 50 pounds. my gosh, I added another weight. We measure it really well, but in dentistry it's like taboo. ⁓ we can't do it. Like it's so bizarre, right? But I just, again, it's the true measure. We talked about this.   The Dental A Team (05:02) I agree.   The Dental A Team (05:07) on a different podcast of winning. It truly lets us know if we're winning or losing, and maybe we'll focus on the wrong thing, right? I know you've heard it a zillion times. Doctors come on, need more new patients. I need more new patients. I need more new patients. And we look at their outstanding treatment list and it's like $3 million. And I'm like, do you really know what you mean? Right? So again, sometimes it lets us win faster because we can breathe direct and focus on   The Dental A Team (05:26) You   for sure.   The Dental A Team (05:37) what's really gonna get us there.   The Dental A Team (05:40) Yeah, I love that you said that. I love the idea of focusing on the wrong thing because I think we do that a lot. focus on the negative, right? We're like, what was our attrition rate instead of what's our new patient and our active patient count? Are those growing? Because if our new patient count and our active patient count are growing, attrition's fine. But if we're looking at attrition rate, we're like, how many are we losing? We're grasping. It's a different kind of energy and that will grow. So if you're looking at it,   you want your attrition to grow, then keep watching it. If you want your active patient count to grow, keep watching it. And if it's not growing, then you tackle the systems and assume attrition is happening. So I love that you said that because it broke it down, I hope for everyone, a little bit differently there. And our podcast today is How KPIs Drive a Practice. And I think in that simple statement and those two minutes you were just talking, you just broke it down, like verbatim on how it drives a practice because   what you focus on will grow no matter what. you're right, it's so everything in our life, we count everything. Like it's just human nature to count and track everything we do. We track our money, we track our expenses, we track our weights, we track our weight, we track everything that we do, we track our gas mileage. know, my sister's always like, ah, I got 16 gallons or whatever. I need to go get the best gas price. And I'm like, girl, I don't.   I don't know what she's like, what is your car get? I'm like, I have no idea. But there's, know, she's tracking that. But like, then we go into a dental office, it's like, don't talk numbers. Don't talk numbers. Don't track it. Because that's going to make somebody feel bad. It's like, no, we're going to track it. We're going to see that we're winning. And we're going to feel really, really good. Like my sister, sometimes she comes home and she's like, ah, I guess mileage was down. Sometimes she comes home and she's like, guess what? Simple. But that's how simple it can be.   doesn't have to be astronomical, but those small wins add up to something astronomical. And I have had so many clients that, I've had clients that have purchased practices, they're like, all right, when are we starting marketing? I'm like, well, what do you mean? You've got, like, what's your patient count? What's your active patient count? And then what's the total patient count of that practice? Because you have, every patient right now is a new patient. Starting marketing,   is a wild use of your money. Let's internal market, let's get your exams better. There's so many different avenues that we think are just the norm, so we jump on board with them. But then when we pull and extract those actual KPIs, we can find the root of what we need and the root of any problems that there might be, any systems that need to be revamped. So I love that, because that's how you're driving success, by watching the KPIs.   Kristy, and you've got, I hope everyone knows, I don't say it every time, but Kristy's done so much in her dental career and held so many titles and she's consulted for far longer than she's even been a presence here at the Dental A Team. We're so grateful for her. Kristy, in all of your experience, what do you feel are the easiest KPIs to start tracking if we're not tracking any? And then what are the most valuable KPIs maybe that people don't think of?   The Dental A Team (08:53) Ooh, that's deep. Obviously, I think we have to look at it as like two different forks in the road, right? Because so many times we hear the practice of a million dollars and then we hear the practice of six million. And I think doctors, you guys get all ramped up and think if I'm the million dollar guy, why am I the six million dollar guy? And I'm thinking, wait, wait, you don't necessarily want to be that guy. You're actually more profitable than, you know.   The Dental A Team (08:55) I I like that one.   Correct.   The Dental A Team (09:22) So it's not just what's happening in the practice, but also how profitable you are, right? And truly us here at the Dental A Team, we're looking to make sure you're hitting that profitability because that's where the true freedom is. But with that being said, the biggest KPIs out of the gate is what do I need to hit every month to be profitable? And then I measure my production, net production.   and collections. And ⁓ I am going to throw new patients in there, but in a different way, because doctors do want new patients and a lot of times they're getting them. But don't just look at how many I'm getting. Look at how many are reappointing. ⁓ you know, it's one thing that you're getting them and you might be doing limited, limited and letting them go out the back door. So again, look at those, but also   put more weight on how many are getting reappointed. And then ⁓ I also like doctors to look at diagnostics, dollars and diagnostic or sorry, acceptance dollars and percentage. ⁓ They go hand in hand. It can't just be percentage of acceptance because maybe I'm not accepting enough to even get to that goal. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (10:31) case acceptance.   Yes,   yes, I love those. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (10:46) And lastly,   probably in that tip would be your reappointment rate. How many are we reappointing? Because keep those patients of yours. Don't have to spend so many external dollars to gain more because if we just keep what we have and too often we look at how many people are sitting in our inactive pile or we don't look at it and you have a whole nother practice sitting there that you could tap into.   The Dental A Team (11:13) Yeah, I love that. I love what you said about the case acceptance dollars, the diagnostics and the case acceptance dollars. I too have doctors, I love having them ⁓ track their diagnosis and then their dollars. Number one, I hated being a treatment coordinator that had no control over how much was being diagnosed and only initially when I was treatment coordinator, were really only looking at case acceptance, which is very popular.   So case acceptance, case acceptance, and then they're like on your neck and that call these three people, why didn't these, like call the people and like I have called all the people. I can't, and we have so many clients, right, that the TC's are like I've called all the people, Tiff, can't, Kristy, I can't call anymore. Cool, it might not be in the case acceptance. Sometimes it's in the diagnosis and then to loop back to your new patient statement, all of those go so hand in hand and this is why, ⁓ heaven help me, this is why.   things like our scorecards, clients of Dental A Team that talk about the scorecard. This is why the scorecard is so important because you can look at a dental analytics screen and it's choppy, all over the place. The scorecard brings it together so that you can see what's affecting something else because to your point of the new patients, I had a practice near and dear to my heart. He hit his massive goal this year and I'm so proud of him. We worked really hard on, it was, you know,   Timelined out for five years and he hit it literally two weeks before his deadline, his date. One of the things that was holding his practice back was the new patients. He needed more new patients, needed more new patients, so his marketing company is like, all right, we're gonna ramp up new patients. And then all of a sudden we've gotten new patients, but it's like, we're not growing. There's nothing on the schedule, what's happening? And so I said, okay, what kind of new patients? And we had so many emergency, limited, transient, going through town, looking for an emergency.   He was doing a lot of same day dentistry, but not getting things booked on the schedule and not really adding to his patient count, because there wasn't reappointments happening. When we dialed that in, we found that and I was like, here's the key, switched his marketing, his new patients went up,   Then we focused in on his case acceptance. And then like you said, with the dollars, we're seeing, are they accepting fillings?   Are they accepting crowns? Are we getting the near cases? Like what is the case acceptance percentage is cool, but what are we actually, what's the procedure that's being the dollar amount and is there a ceiling maybe in our treatment planning, either back office, front office, wherever it is, is there a ceiling that our system needs to be able to help us overcome in diagnosing a certain dollar amount or treatment planning a certain dollar amount?   The Dental A Team (14:03) Yeah, I love that you say that, And as the TC, that's the one that gets me because so many doctors go back up there or come to us and say, they're just not closing it. And I always tell my practices, case acceptance is a team sport. And literally, it starts from before they even call the office. Like everything you're doing is contributing to their trust. And so ⁓ truly, docs,   I know you don't want to hear this, but it's your job to get them to yes with treatment and ⁓ financial coordinators get them to yes financially. So some of them can work heroics and they do, but it is totally a team sport. So going back to the diagnostics too, you asked a tool that I use ⁓ that maybe isn't so looked at. And I would say print your procedure count report yearly and just take a look, you know?   Are you doing four surface fillings? And I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but is it aligning with your philosophy? And are you giving patients the choice for long-term care? Because sometime that probably four surface filling is going to turn into something, you know? And let your patients decide. Let them decide.   The Dental A Team (15:18) Yeah.   Yes, I love that I have worked with many practices that they do give the options, but they assume that their patient base wants something specifically or can only afford something specifically. So they may give the options, but they kind of talk them into starting with something and started just leaving it on the table and saying what, if this were your mouth and roles were reversed, that we often say,   this were your mom, if this were your sister, if this were your brother. But I like to think, what if we were in different seats and the patient or the dentist, you were sitting in that chair, what would you want someone to tell you? Because you might even still err on the side of like, mom, when it happens, we'll fix it, but like, let's just do this patch for now, right? Because I don't, we don't want to get you numb. Like you might still err on that side for a family member, the, know, quote unquote conservative, but if you were sitting in that chair,   what would you want the dentist to say to you? And I think that makes a massive difference. And that is like your detectiveness, right? That's your detectiveness, but it works and it's what practices need sometimes. And I think, Kristy, part of those pieces, and you showed me your AR thing yesterday and how you diagnose that. And sometimes we do have to go to those spaces.   The Dental A Team (16:17) Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (16:40) because you can't see it in the other areas. like, gosh, something is here, but that's why you look at those KPIs that are gonna drive success. And then when one of them isn't working, when one of them isn't hitting the metric that you want it to, you dive deeper. You're not just going to say, okay, every month let's pull the procedure code report. You're gonna say, if case acceptance, if we're not hitting production, case acceptance isn't working or diagnosis isn't working, now we're gonna dig a little bit deeper.   I think what tends to happen is we either go surface and we're like, everything's fine and we ignore issues or we go so deep that we're in the weeds and nobody has time to see the patients. We're just pulling reports all the time.   The Dental A Team (17:20) Yeah, it's so funny. So much psychology goes into it, right? Like our doctors get so upset in dentistry. I remember like doctors thinking, well, we're the only ones that do free consults. Medical doctors don't do free consults. Why do we do it in dentistry? You know what I mean? But yet we also complain, my schooling costs so much and they don't want to pay me what I'm worth, you know? And it's like,   Almost everything, it's funny when we get into it and I work with clients, I'm like, we kind of caused it. We taught them. How many times do we answer the phone and we go, do you have insurance before we even know their name? You know? So it's funny. It's like an oxymoron in a way, but I love that you brought that up because many times we do it to ourselves.   The Dental A Team (18:10) Yeah, yeah, we just spin our wheels on something, to find it and trying to get it right in an industry where nobody's taught how to do this stuff. guys, doctors learned how to be dentists and that's it. It's a rare occasion that you come across anybody who is taught how to run a dental practice. And dental is different than medical. So even healthcare professionals, right? People who have a degree in healthcare management, it's different.   This is why we're here. This is what we do. This is this is years and years. mean, across the whole Dental A Team team, like we should count that up. That'd be a lot of years. I don't even know anymore. We've grown to so many consultants. I don't even want to try to count that right now. We'll do that later. We'll ask Josh to do that for us. But regardless, there's so much wealth of knowledge here in.   The Dental A Team (18:57) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (19:04) ensuring that and we've done such a great job at finding the solutions and the systems to at least get templates and things started to customize for practices. I think that's just an immense value that consultants like the Dental A Team bring is that space of uniformity. these are things that we've seen work. Let's start here and then let's layer on top for you and let's adjust it for your practice and your team.   and those KPIs that drive success, pretty universal. And you said, you know, the common ones, production collections, new patients, diagnosis, case acceptance, and I loved your reappointment rate for new patients and just in general, those tell you the stories. And then from there, we dig and dive deeper. So I love it, Kristy. Thank you so much. think if I were to give an action item, it would be to revamp.   your KPIs if you're digging too deep and grab some new ones if you're not going deep enough, if that makes sense. So, Kristy, anything else you'd like to add?   The Dental A Team (20:09) No, I love it. The only thing I would say, Tip, I know you have the saying down better, but use, love the numbers, right? Don't use them as sticks, is that?   The Dental A Team (20:17) Yeah.   Yes,   yes, numbers are here to guide us. They're stars to guide us. They're not sticks to beat ourselves up with. Yeah, years and years of presenting with Kiera. Awesome, well you guys, go check your KPIs, go check your scorecards. If you're a Dental A Team client, you should have a scorecard. If you don't, get after your consultant. Everyone has scorecards this year, so we're good to go. But if you don't know how to use it or if you're confused by it,   The Dental A Team (20:26) There you go. Love it. Yeah. Love it. ⁓   The Dental A Team (20:48) or if you're not a Dental A Team client yet and you want information on it, please by all means reach out. We're here to help you. We wanna make sure that everyone is successful, whether you are a one-on-one client with us, a group client, or just here as a listener, we wanna make sure that you are all successful. So reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, and you guys, we'll catch you next time. Thanks so much, thanks, Kristy.   The Dental A Team (21:08) Thank you.  

Tracy Brower, PhD, MM, MCRW is a sociologist studying community, happiness, and the future of work and life. She is VP of Workplace Insights at Steelcase and a Senior Contributor for Forbes and Fast Company. Mike Petrusky asks Tracy about her brand new book, "Critical Connections: Build Relationships and Harness the Power of Community in Work and Life", in which she delivers inspiration and pragmatic new insights on community and connection. They discuss how organizations can help to foster connections among employees, which can lead to higher levels of well-being and performance. Research shows that 50% of people globally are lonely with record levels of depression and anxiety, so Tracy believes the workplace can provide a sense of stability and identity for the workforce. Proximity and presence can increase performance and knowledge sharing among employees, and leaders should be intentional about creating cultures that support connections and community, so Mike and Tracy share some inspiration that will encourage you to be a Workplace Innovator in your organization! Connect with Tracy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracybrowerphd/ Order Tracy's new book "Critical Connections": https://tracybrower.com/9218-2/ Learn more about Steelcase: https://www.steelcase.com/ Watch the podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSkmmkVFvM4H3pwnlU2AuqynuRDpvnh4J Discover free resources and explore past interviews at: https://eptura.com/discover-more/podcasts/workplace-innovator/ Learn more about Eptura™: https://eptura.com/ Connect with Mike on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikepetrusky/  

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When your corporate job feels "secure" until it suddenly isn't, real estate can become the Plan B that turns into your best move…  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, DoorGrow founder Jason Hull sits down with John Casmon (multifamily syndicator, host of Multifamily Insights, and co-creator of the Midwest Real Estate Networking Summit) to break down how corporate professionals can transition into multifamily investing without becoming a stressed-out landlord. They dive into how John went from corporate bankruptcies to building a multifamily portfolio, what passive investors actually need to know before putting money into a deal, and why trust + clear expectations matter just as much as the numbers.  Jason and John also unpack what this means for property managers: how to align with investor goals, why the best operators project calm control (even in chaos), where syndicators hang out, and how PMs can position themselves to win more multifamily doors.    You'll Learn (00:00) Transforming Property Management: An Introduction  (00:59) John Casmon's Entrepreneurial Journey  (02:56) Transitioning to Multifamily Investing  (04:33) Understanding Investor Types and Property Management  (05:48) The Role of Property Managers  (07:49) Investor Control vs. Trust in Management  (09:33) Challenges in Property Management  (11:17) Aligning Goals with Property Managers  (14:19) The Real Product of Property Management  (17:14) Managing Investor Expectations  (19:50) Syndication: A New Avenue for Property Managers  (23:44) Legal Considerations in Syndication  (26:41) Calmness in Chaos: The Key to Success  (31:40) Partnering with Syndications  (33:54 The Role of Property Management in Syndication  (38:29) Finding Syndicators and Building Relationships  (42:24) Understanding Passive Investment in Syndication  (47:45) Identifying Your Investment Goals  (51:54) Assessing Risk in Real Estate Investments  (55:15) Choosing the Right Market for Investment  (01:00:12) The Three C's of Raising Capital Quotables "The first C is confidence. Confidence comes from preparation." "The investment itself, we got to go out there and execute. But that investor psyche is a completely different game."  "It is not your job to hope. Your job is to analyze the information in front of you and make an informed decision." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:01) All right, five, four, three, two, one. All right, I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. And for over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses.   We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. So my guest today, I'm hanging out here with John Casman, a multifamily syndicator, host of the multifamily insights podcast and the co-creator of the Midwest real estate networking summit. And in today's episode, John's going to break down how corporate professionals can transition.   into multifamily investing, how to find the best markets, how to raise capital effectively, and what separates successful operators from everyone else. John, welcome to the DoorGrowth Show.   John Casmon (01:10) Yeah, Jason, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Love the intro, your intro, not my intro, ⁓ but excited to be here and share as much as we can on our journey to help all of your listeners reach their goals.   Jason Hull (01:22) Cool. So John, ⁓ it's great to have you. I would love for people to hear about your entrepreneurial journey. How did you get to where you are now? And then we can get into your business.   John Casmon (01:34) Well, the short answer is bankruptcy, right? I worked for a couple of different companies that went through bankruptcy and that really made me consider my other options. You know, I was at General Motors back in 2007, 2008, 2009 when we went through bankruptcy and I was there and I watched what that did to a lot of my peers. I one day in particular when we were going to have a lot of layoffs, I went to work as late as I could. But when I got there, I had a red message, a little red dial on your phone.   for anybody who's worked in corporate and remember voicemails. So I had a red dot on my phone, picked it up, pushed the play button and my heart skipped a beat because I thought maybe I was getting to the can, right? And it was actually a colleague of mine who sat kind of kitty corner in front of me and he had been let go. He, you know, was diabetic. He didn't know I was going to pay for his medication. He just was venting in his voicemail. And I just remember feeling empathy for him, but also   a sense of I just never wanted to be in that situation. So it made me really start to think about Plan B. Eventually I moved to Chicago, realized real estate was going to be that path and learned everything I could about investing. So it kind of took me down that pathway to say, you know what, I need a Plan B because no matter what you do, when you work in corporate America, you do not control your future. You know, there's politics, there's policy, there's a lot of different things involved that you do not control.   And sometimes it does just come down to someone not liking you for whatever reason, or they think you're a threat. And I didn't want to spend the rest of my career navigating those issues. So I figured I had to take more into my own hands.   Jason Hull (03:16) got it. And so you start taking things in your own hands and what was the result?   John Casmon (03:20) Yes. So we landed on multifamily investing, started with small multifamily. My first investment was a two unit building. We house hacked it, which is a common popular phrase now. But back then it wasn't quite as common. But we lived upstairs. We rented out the first floor unit and it worked great. You know, it worked so great that we went to refinance and we had created enough equity in that first investment to pull out a six figure line of credit and go out and buy another property. So.   Jason Hull (03:45) Nice.   John Casmon (03:47) That really got the ball rolling. bought a three unit building, we bought an eight unit building, and at this time I'm still working in advertising, still working in corporate America, and I enjoyed what I was doing, and I just had my second child, but the agency I was working for also went through bankruptcy right at this time. We had expanded, we were growing, and we had kind of combined with a few other agencies and kind of became this little conglomerate, and it just eroded just as quickly as it grew.   I remember again, just sitting there and I've got some real estate. I've got a little bit of cashflow, but not enough to pay all my bills. New baby. And I just realized this real estate thing is working, but the exact strategy I'm employing doesn't allow me to insulate myself from these economic changes and shifts. So I had to change my strategy and that led me to syndication. Since then, we've acquired over $150 million worth of apartments.   We've partnered with busy professionals to buy these properties and give them some passive income. And that's what we've been doing ever since.   Jason Hull (04:50) Got it. So your area of genius really is helping these people that were similar to you, they're in the corporate environment transition into being an investor in real estate.   John Casmon (05:01) Yeah, exactly. And I would say too, it doesn't have to be you're going to quit your job and do this full time. And in fact, most people don't, you know, but most people do want a little bit more control over their life. You want a little bit more flexibility. You want to earn and start building up, you know, your net worth. You want to have a little bit more liquidity. You have to look at your investments to say, what should you be doing? I think most people know that their 401k, their, you know, company issued life insurance.   probably not enough to really get you on the fast track to retirement. So what else could you do? Certainly you can invest in the stock market. Lots of folks do that. But real estate is a proven vehicle. The challenge is, I don't know anyone who really wants to be a landlord, right? ⁓ Certainly you want the benefits of real estate investing, but very few of us want to get those 2 a.m. phone calls. So the shortcut there is, ⁓ hire a property manager. Great solution. But now you have to be able to manage   property managers, right, which is this whole other business. And if you don't have enough scale, then it's hard to get that person really focused on your business. So we offer an alternative, right? You get all the benefits of real estate investing, all the ownership perks without any of the headaches of being the landlord yourself. So it really is a great marriage of being in real estate without having to do the heavy lifting yourself.   Jason Hull (06:15) Okay.   Okay, so ⁓ the target audience of this show are property managers. So if they're not gonna use property managers, then what's the alternative? How does this work?   John Casmon (06:29) Well,   first of all, what we do is not always for that individual. So I think that's the key, right? You've got to understand who you are from a psychological standpoint. So when it comes to investors, there's two types of investors. One wants control, right? They're not willing to be passive. And some people think they want to be passive until they're in a passive situation and then they're calling and they want to know why you did this and why you did that and how come you did do that. That's not a passive investor. And that's fun.   Jason Hull (06:45) Yeah.   Yeah, they're anxious. Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (06:58) And   if that's you, you should be active, right? And you should work with a property manager, but you also want to work with the property manager who is going to be right for you, right? Because sometimes that is not how they operate. So you want to understand that. And that's a process to understand who you are as an investor, what kind of investment strategy fits you and what's going to be right there. When it comes to property managers, though, I think there are a couple of things. And as a matter of fact, we just left out of meeting with   property management company yesterday. They have 2000 units. We talked about some other services that we offer. And one of things that stood out to me was just understanding some of the challenges that property managers face. And one of them is property managers are really in a position to think like everyone. They're supposed to think like an investor. They're supposed to understand maintenance and kind of the construction arm enough to understand what needs to happen at a property. But they are really little CEOs, right? Because for   Our stuff, the large apartment stuff, those are typically million dollar annual revenue businesses. And this person is in charge of that asset of that business. They are making the day to day decisions. They are the face for the residents, aka the customers of that business. They are the face and their experience with that individual is how they view that business. So it really is an important role. And if you're working with property managers, it's really important to understand how to find the right people.   to connect with them and have them represent your business, your brand, company in the right light.   Jason Hull (08:30) So now you left an open loop that I want to close. So you said there's two types of investors, those that want control and maybe should go find a property manager, you said. And then what's the other type?   John Casmon (08:34) Yeah.   The other type is those who don't want control and they trust someone else to handle that. And for them, there are a couple of different ways of investing. One is investing passively with a group like ours. The other is turnkey investing where again, you hire a property manager, but you really entrust them to manage the property. The only thing I would say for either one of those groups, myself included, is you want to trust but verify. Okay. You've got to do a lot of your due diligence upfront. You want to understand how they operate. You want to talk to   some of their other clients, some of their other investors, because you need to get a really good sense of what to expect. And a lot of people are great at selling themselves upfront, right? I can tell you everything you want to hear upfront. You want to know what is it like once you sign the paperwork? How often are we going to talk? How frequently am I going to get updates? And at what point am I able to weigh in and make decisions? Because if, if you are someone who wants to be more active or be heard, or you've got thoughts and opinions,   Jason Hull (09:18) yeah.   John Casmon (09:35) You want to make sure you have a voice in your investment. Otherwise you may get really disappointed or you may bring on someone who has a different perspective of what that relationship looks like and that never is going to work out.   Jason Hull (09:47) Yeah, there's a big challenge in the industry and that's that most property management companies suck. so most investors that have dealt with property management to some degree are they have some scar tissue, they've been burned a little bit. They've a lot of property managers that started their businesses that come to me for help to grow their business. They started because they were investor and they couldn't find anyone else to manage the property good enough. And that's why they started their business, but it can be a difficult business to run. so none of them start their business saying, I want to suck.   But that's kind of the default unless they get some really good support or figure some things out through a lot of trial and error. And so that's where DoorGrow comes in. We help them with that. But one of the things I coach my clients on a lot is that they need to shift into being daddy over these rental properties. They need to like tell the owner, hey, you need to trust me. And they need to be able to have a really effective business so that they can lean into that trust.   because a lot of people are anxious. They'll come to them with concerns, but generally if a property manager is good, they're much better at this investing stuff than most investors. And they're much better at coordinating maintenance. They're much better at handling leasing. And so when an owner tries to micromanage a property manager, it kind of doesn't make sense to hire somebody to manage your asset just so you can manage them to do the job. And so I think the secret is finding a really good property manager that you can   let go of control because you can trust them. And but yes, you need to verify that they can do the job that you need them to do. And so a good property manager will take ownership of it and they'll take control and they will, they'll display a lot of certainty and confidence in how they communicate and they won't allow you to micromanage them is what I've seen. So.   John Casmon (11:37) Yeah, Jason, and I'll add to it. There's a two way street there. And I think it's easy for people to say, ⁓ most property managers suck or they're not good or whatever. And listen, there's certainly a lot of challenges there. A lot of folks who are not living up to par to the standards. But I will go back to this. We ask property managers to do the work of generally like a CEO. Right. I mean, again, they're managing million dollar businesses in many cases, yet they don't have that training. They don't have that experience. They don't have the ability to navigate.   all of these various things. So part of what owners and investors need to also understand is that you play the role of asset manager. And that means giving clear direction of what success looks like so that that property manager has a framework to make decisions. It's not to micromanage those decisions, but to help them understand how their decisions impact the greater good. And part of that is like, again, just sitting down with annual goals. What are revenue goals? What are our goals on?   Occupancy, what are our goals on in a lot? And this may seem simple, but I promise you a lot of folks don't do this. And if you don't do that, then that property manager is going to default to, for instance, I'll give you a great example. I've got a property manager. She's awesome rock star. But she always gets nervous when occupancy is not at like 96 or 97 percent of this property. So she is, you she starts apologizing profusely and all I did this or done that and like.   Jason Hull (12:58) Yeah.   John Casmon (13:04) Occupancy is one of our KPIs for sure. It's important, but that is not the KPI. I am focused on my net operating income. And if we're going to push rents, the impact of that is you're going to have higher vacancy and she is not comfortable with that. And that's probably because she's used to working with owners who want that thing fully rented and they are comfortable having 100 % occupancy.   Jason Hull (13:13) Yeah.   Hmm.   Yeah.   John Casmon (13:33) if they're leaving 50 bucks, 75 bucks, whatever it is of rent on the table. And that's the part where you've got to really align with your vision versus their vision, because what they have in the back of their mind may not completely align with what you have. Or they have residents in their face who are coming into the office. They want something fixed. They want it done quickly. They want it done right. They want it done yesterday.   Jason Hull (13:49) Right.   .   John Casmon (13:59) So they've got that pressure of this person in their face. So they may go out there and spend the money or authorize the money to get spent. And maybe they're not picking the most cost effective measure. So you have that. And I'll give you one third one. A lot of times when you run into the flip side of that is maybe occupancy is low. They say, hey, we need to increase our marketing spend, right? We got to increase our marketing budget. know, ox is down to 88 or 90%. We got to spend more money. And we're not necessarily.   really zeroing in on what the specific issue or challenge is at that property. So for an owner, your job as an asset manager is to partner with them and to help them see what the options are, help them work through with some of those challenges and solutions are and partner with them to find success. It's not to micromanage them and tell them what to do, but it's really to understand the situation better and give them that perspective.   Jason Hull (14:49) Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. think, you know, one of the things I've seen is that I've noticed a lot of property managers, they make the mistake of thinking that the goal or the product that people want to buy from them is property management. But investors don't wake up in the morning and go, man, I'm so excited to get property management today. The thing that they want. And so the way I describe it to them as they say, property management is like the flight to Hawaii. It's not Hawaii.   and you're trying to sell the flight. That's not the exciting part. You need to figure out what the investor wants, what their goal is. Where do they want to go? What's Hawaii for them, right? What's paradise? And then how do we optimize for that? And how do we help them create a path for that? Because the actual product that a property manager is selling is not what they do. It's not property management. The actual product is them. It's them and their values and their belief system and how they create trust and the team they build and the system and mechanism they build around them.   That's the actual product the property manager is selling. so a lot of property managers make that mistake. They sit there and talk to you about maintenance coordination and leasing and inspections. And meanwhile, you're just wondering as an investor, can I even trust this person? Like do our values align? Yeah. So I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but.   John Casmon (16:11) I think you're spot on, right? Because, I mean, ultimately, as an investor, you are only as good as the team you can build. And that property manager is in charge of the day-to-day aspects of the business. especially when you, you know, I've heard horror stories of folks who have done like turnkey investing, right? Where the property manager, someone owns it, they buy it, they fix it up, and then they rent it back to...   an investor. And I've heard horror stories where that property was not being well managed. And that's the fear. If you're not in that marketing, you can't come and see it. So if you got an out of town investor, you really are trusting that property manager. So that is the most important thing, right? Everything else are tactical, daily situational things that can change. But it comes down to do I have the right people, people that I can trust, people who are going to make the right decision based on the information they have.   because they may not know what I know or maybe something shifted and changed where they would have made a different decision. We can't, you know, ache on that. It really comes down to are they doing their best? Are they making good decisions? If they're not making good decisions, is it because they didn't have the correct information, which again, could fall back on you as the investor to say, hey, are they aware of what your goals are? Are they aware of maybe this situation, these tools, these resources, whatever it is? And that's on you to sit and collaborate.   But trust is absolutely paramount because at end of the day, the thing that I think most of us are concerned with is who we partner with. And there's a great book I'm reading right now. And it gets into decision making and the fear of decision making for most of us and why deals stall. Why didn't you hire somebody? Why didn't you, you know, go with the vendor or go with the contractor or with the company? And the biggest thing is we are scared of making the wrong choice. All of us in decision and no action.   Jason Hull (17:43) Absolutely.   John Casmon (18:04) is better than the wrong action for many people because they once they take action. Well, now they're blaming themselves because you didn't pick the right person. Why did you hire that guy? You should have like now this starts to go on in their head versus doing nothing. Well, at least it's you know, it's not going to get worse, you know, it will in lot of cases get worse. So for a lot of people, that is the scariest thing. So if you can take that fear off the table as far as being the right person or being someone who is trustworthy.   Jason Hull (18:07) Right, yeah.   John Casmon (18:32) everything else gets easier. So if you can do that, that's, you know, the best thing you can do as an investor or as a property manager.   Jason Hull (18:38) Yeah, I agree. think one of things that I talk about a lot is that clarity has to come before action because if you don't have clarity and you start taking a bunch of action, doing stuff, every action you take is a little bit wrong. Sometimes it's a lot wrong. so, yeah, we need to get that clarity first before we start ⁓ making moves. And you talked about, I love the example of your property manager that is trying to   optimize maybe for the wrong thing. They're like, want to optimize to the, making sure their vacancy is super low. But that might not be the goal. That's not the primary goal. The goal is money, you know, and there's a really good book is by Elihu Goldratt. It's a good book for operations people, but it's called The Goal. And spoiler alert, the guy's trying to figure out the goal through this whole book, the story and it's money. That's the secret. The goal is the of the business, should be making making money.   And what happens in this book is that people are over optimizing individual pieces in this flow at this warehouse. And it's actually not helping to make money. It's causing more constraint. And so if we over optimize at one stage, it actually creates waste, bloat, inventory, additional work for the next stage. And so sometimes the best thing certain departments can do is slow down and do less in order to get the outcome to be maximized outcome.   And there's some really great examples in that that I think are really powerful. But I think the if you're optimizing for the wrong thing, then you're not making it effective. So you want to make sure you're optimizing for the right thing. Otherwise. ensues. You get mad at somebody, but nobody understood what the goal was. And so I think, yeah, getting a greed upon set of criteria of what what the outcome is and asking the property manager, can you help me achieve this?   And they know, they know if they know what the problem is, usually they can, they know how to help you get whatever goal that you have. And they know whether your goal is probably realistic or not, because they've helped probably a lot of people do this similarly. And so, but yeah, I think it's very important. Make sure you know, where's Hawaii and maybe property management is the vehicle. Now you had mentioned like, I'm really curious about this idea of, you know, maybe creating syndications.   Some property managers are now starting to think, maybe I should create a syndication. What's your criteria for, what's a good syndication and what are some of the, I'd be really curious to get into if some of the property managers listening were wanting to do kind of a little bit of what you do, how they might be able to get started in that. Like what are the beginning steps to make sure they don't make the mistakes you probably already figured out in the beginning?   John Casmon (21:27) Well, I think the first thing is, you really want to get into it? Right. Because for a lot of people, you got to understand it's a different business. Now you're not talking about real estate investing. You're not talking about property management. You're really talking more about, you know, investment management. You're talking about bringing on private investors who are looking for a return. That is communication skills. That's building up a network and a database of   Jason Hull (21:35) Mm-hmm.   Right, returns.   John Casmon (21:54) prospective investors, it's understanding the return projections that they're looking for. And it's really kind of managing the investor expectations, not necessarily the investment. And to give you a great example here, I had a deal where the investment went great, but it was slightly lower than what we initially projected. And I had an investor who was upset.   Jason Hull (22:07) Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (22:23) about that. And we had communicated all throughout the entire process where things sat and he wasn't too upset, but he still made it a point to let me know, hey, well, this is less than what you initially thought. And that's challenging because the market shifts, right? Anybody who's bought properties in 2022 and beyond knows the market has shifted drastically over the last three or four years. So those projections made in a 2021-22 environment   Have a hard time standing up in a 25 26 environment We still make good money on that deals double-digit returns for investors ⁓ But you know there was that that was that feedback I got from one of the investors conversely We just exited deal a couple months ago, and we completely exceeded our return projections You know we delivered on a almost a 2.7 equity multiple Hit all you know mid 20s on the IRR completely unheard of stuff in this environment   And I have one investor call me and say, hey, John, I just checked my account. Is this right? And I'm like, yeah, it's it's right, man. He's like, my gosh, you guys killed it, man. my. Like, this is amazing. And it's great to hear. But again, that is separate from the investment. Right. Happy to manage the investor expectations and concerns. But that was an up and down investment where we had, you know, a moment where we actually had to put some of our general partner capital into the deal to keep it going.   Jason Hull (23:27) Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (23:48) We have floating rate debt. had to refinance out of that. And we had to kind of rush to do that before rates started to go crazy. We had moments where our construction or renovation costs were much higher than we anticipated. So there are a lot of things that we had to navigate. And I think what happens for a lot of operators, a lot of people who get into syndication, they know the real estate and want to do the real estate, but they do not understand the perspective of the investor. And when you don't communicate to investors on a frequent basis and a clear, transparent nature,   Jason Hull (24:19) Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (24:19) They fill in the blanks and   the first concern every investor has and they won't say it. Most of time they don't say it, but I promise you they're thinking it after they make that investment. my gosh, did I make a mistake? Am I going to lose money? Is this person going to run off? Is this going to be some sort of fraudulent thing? Is this deal going to fail? These are all that we're wired like that. This is caveman stuff, right? We're wired to protect ourselves.   Jason Hull (24:36) Hmm.   Right.   John Casmon (24:45) And when you make an investment, and by the way, our investments are typically $50,000 and up, right? So these are not small investments. So when you make that investment, people start to second guess that decision. So my job when it comes to this side of the business is to keep them grounded that, hey, you've done your research, you've made an informed decision, you've picked a good partner, we've done this before. ⁓   Jason Hull (24:50) Yeah. Right.   John Casmon (25:13) And it's really to make sure that they feel comfortable with that decision. It has nothing to do with the investment, right? The investment itself, we got to go out there and execute. But that investor psyche is a completely different game. So first thing I would tell any of your property managers when they get into this business is understand, do you actually like people? Do you want to manage investors? Are you comfortable managing people's money? ⁓ And then beyond that, you have to do it the legal way. There are a lot of regulations around accepting capital from other people.   Jason Hull (25:31) you   John Casmon (25:42) So you can do it as a joint venture. The more common way of doing it, the more accepted way of doing this is by doing a formal syndication, which requires you to file SEC documentations. ⁓ know, there's regulation D and regulation A and there's some couple others, but typically it's going to be reg D 506 B or 506 C filing, which basically is the the structure that allows you to offer ⁓ passive investment opportunity or a security to investors. So again, for some people,   It's overwhelming. they're like, nope, never mind. But for some people, they love it. They want to get into it and they can learn more about that process.   Jason Hull (26:19) Got it. Yeah. I think I love your idea that it's more about managing expectations rather than the investments. And I think, I think that's good advice for all the property managers listing. This is something we spend a lot of time coaching clients on because they think their job is to manage properties. But really, if they're not strong in managing expectations and managing the relationship, it's 10 times to 100 times harder to manage the properties.   their operational costs go through the roof because owners are getting anxious. They're asking more questions. They're getting all these interruptions and calls, tenants, owners constantly. And if they had just managed the relationship and expectations and set strong boundaries at the outset, everybody would feel calmer. And I think really for business owners, I think the thing that really stood out to me that I've been focused on, and this is I've done some personal coaching and this is just nervous system regulation.   If you can, and John, seem like you're pretty chill and pretty calm and I'm sure the investor feel safe with you, which is why you've had success. If you are a person that is anxious and you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off, you're going to have, you're going to struggle in leading anybody, especially in relationships to your spouse and like everybody else. so having a calm, regulated nervous system allows your investors.   to entrain to your nervous system and to feel safer and to calm down. And that's not something you can pretend or you can just fake. You have to be that and they can sense and they can feel that it'll come across in your tone and in your body language and how you communicate. But if you can make sure that you're in that space and that you're able to regulate your own system, you're able to stay calm when other people are coming at you.   and other people are angry and other people are emotionally heightened. And you recognize this isn't really you. It's just that's them. And you can maintain that calm. You will be able to create a lot more safety. And that's really what people want to buy. Most people out there, their primary basic need is safety and security. Most people. That's why they aren't entrepreneurs. That's why they don't go start jobs. That's why they aren't like you and me. And if you're a property management business owner listening to this,   Most people are not like you. They want safety and security. That's why they get a property manager. They want peace of mind. And so, and I'm sure investors in a syndication, they also want some peace of mind because this is a big chunk of change.   John Casmon (28:55) They do. And I will say to most of the property managers I come across thrive in chaos. Right. They're used to stuff getting thrown at them. Right. And when you talk to them and get to know them, you learn very quickly. They like it. They do. They like the fact that they don't know what the day is going to bring. It could be a. Yeah, yeah. Could be a tenant coming with some crazy issue. It could be something from it's never boring and they thrive in it. However.   Jason Hull (29:00) Yeah.   Yeah.   They like the variety and unique challenges that property management brings, for sure.   It's never boring.   John Casmon (29:25) What happens then if you if they're going to look to work with investors and particularly raise capital and kind of do their own syndications, they have to understand that while they may thrive in chaos and uncertainty, most other people want organization. You want everything you said right. You want to have the calmness. You are looking for a captain to steer the ship. And for that part of the personality, they're going to have to tap into a different side of it to demonstrate how they handle chaos.   Jason Hull (29:37) Hmm.   Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (29:54) not that they are chaotic. And I think what happens a lot of times when you're working with property managers is that they don't project that level of control. It just feels like they're reacting. So part of it is that, and they're really, really good ones. The ones who make it to that next level who are the regional managers and get those promotions, well, that's what they do. They manage the chaos and they manage up. They do a great job of telling the owners,   Jason Hull (30:06) Yeah.   Mm.   John Casmon (30:23) the leadership, whoever they need to talk to, they're telling them, hey, here's how here's our process. Here's how we're managing the situation. Here's what's going on. Here's what we're into. Hey, we had a water main burst here. Here's we bought. call three companies. We've got three quotes, but it's calm, right? It can be the worst. I'll give you a real example, right? At a fire, one of my properties and I was going to meet a property manager and I just happened to have a meeting with her that day at the property. She called me.   I was literally about to get in the car. She called me and said, Hey, I just want to let you know we've got a fire going on at the property. I'm not sure if you still want to meet. You're happy to come. We already have, you know, the fire department's here. They're they're putting the fire out right now. We already have another company that's coming in. They're going to walk through the damages once this is kind of settled. And I've already talked to the residents. Residents are good. We've got them hotels for the evening. We've checked with insurance. This is covered in your policy. So they're good to go. So you're happy to come down and talk and all of that if you want to.   Or we can let things settle down and maybe we can meet next week. This is a fire, right? This is like a scary situation. She called me.   Jason Hull (31:26) Right. A literal fire. Yeah. And there's plenty of fires   in managing properties. The literal ones.   John Casmon (31:33) Her calmness, she was so calm. Not only was   she calm, she had handled 90 % of it, right? It was the stuff you could handle in the moment. She handled it. So was like, hey, I don't think it makes sense for me to because I'm probably just going to add more anxiety to the situation at this point, right? It seems like you've got it under control. Why don't we let things settle, literally let the dust settle? And then once it's there, I'll come down. We can assess the damages, figure out what else needs to happen, what other next steps need to take place, right?   Jason Hull (31:41) Yeah? huh.   question. Yeah.   John Casmon (32:03) but had it handled like a rock star. Now, a lot of other folks would have saw the flames, called immediately, my God, there's a fire. ⁓ my God, what are we gonna do? So now you freaking out, everyone's freaking out, no one's controlling the situation, right? So now everyone's mind is just spinning and going. it does really take, kind of go back to where we started the conversation, that mindset of someone who was the boss, who was leading.   Jason Hull (32:05) Yeah, I love that.   Yeah. Freaking out. Yeah.   Hmm. Yeah.   John Casmon (32:32) who is going to take charge, even though it's not their property, they're going to take charge. Here's what needs to happen next. Maybe you have an emergency response plan already put in place, but you have these things already scheduled and ready to go. So when they happen, you're not shocked. You're not surprised. You're not asking questions that maybe you should have figured out upfront. And that's what a great property manager does. And if you convey that to owners, you're going to stand out above and beyond your competition because most people cannot convey that level of control, the level of   planning and the level of expertise that it takes to truly and effectively manage properties from the front, being proactive as opposed to just reacting to whatever the issue of the day is.   Jason Hull (33:13) Got it, okay. So ⁓ I'm reading, I just read, well, I didn't just read. I read in the past a really great book called Extreme Ownership. Really good book. Yeah, phenomenal book. ⁓ I'm going through their newer book, which I think is even better, called The Dichotomy of Leadership. leadership is what we're talking about right now, is that that,   John Casmon (33:23) Yeah, I think I got it like right here. It is right there.   Absolutely.   Jason Hull (33:38) creates a huge impact and there's a lot of misunderstandings of what leadership is, like it's control or it's being aggressive or, but yeah, it's really that calm presence of letting people know I've got it. Like we can take care of this. We've got a plan and staying regulated and calm. So I love that. ⁓ have a, so another question I have is how can the property managers listen to this? How could they maybe target or partner   with, if possible, syndications like you, like people that are doing what you're doing. Is there a chance that they could be a resource or do most syndications just in-house and do, they are a property management business?   John Casmon (34:19) No, no, most ⁓ most that I know work with third party manager companies. So I would say first and foremost, if you and syndications, I mean, it sounds like a big, huge, fancy word. But I mean, honestly, anytime you work with passive investors is technically a syndication. So it really comes down to figuring out who is looking for third party management and whether or not it's technically a syndication or not is really irrelevant. You want someone who is going to be managing or owning the property.   Jason Hull (34:24) Okay.   Yeah.   John Casmon (34:49) They want third party, but you have to understand their plan, going back to understanding the goals, right? Most syndications are looking to sell in a three to seven year timeframe, typically five to seven years. Most buy and hold owners have not decided or have not identified their exit strategy. So that's probably the biggest difference is when you have, let's just call it an individual investor or maybe it's a   Jason Hull (35:01) Okay.   Right.   John Casmon (35:17) a family or whatever that's buying and they want a third party manager, they don't know the exit. They haven't predetermined that they're going to sell in five years. So they are buying and holding it. And that goes back to the the I think the separation of understanding the objective, because for that person, having a full property is great. It means they're maximizing the revenue potential today. When you are syndicating.   most syndicators already assume 5 % vacancy. That's that's in everyone's underwriting. So you being at 100, they won't even give you credit banks don't even give you credit for it. So all of these things are already assumed. So for us to be above that is actually a miss, because it means we're not being as aggressive on the rent. So just understanding the mindset of a syndicator, which is they are looking to sell typically they're looking to double their money over a five or six year period. So how can you create value?   And that's something most property managers don't fully understand. But I would sit and I would talk to that syndicator. And if you want to be a syndicator or partners, not just be a third party vendor, but you actually want a partner, which we have seen a lot of folks look to do. You want to figure out how you can bring value to the table, because now we are aligning your interest with that syndicators interest. And now you've got a great partnership.   because every syndicator is going to need property management and they're going to need construction management to drive value. So if they can bring those people in as partners, that's a great opportunity for you. And if you're a property manager, you may have phenomenal relationships. You may already have contractor or the vendor partners that you trust in that marketplace. And if you could then take that and get a slice of the equity, that makes you very valuable for both sides.   Jason Hull (37:08) Do syndications, do they also need investors in capital or do most of them have that, are they really good at that? Okay.   John Casmon (37:15) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   mean, I mean, syndication at its core really just comes down to the need of capital. If someone had the capital themselves, they would probably just buy it directly and not go through the process of syndication. Because the syndication is literally just raising the money from passive investors. And in that scenario, again, being able to manage that, manage the communication, ⁓ that's really what a syndication truly is.   Jason Hull (37:42) So a really good property management partner could bring property management, some of the construction elements and investors and capital to the table. So it could be a nice little.   John Casmon (37:51) That would be amazing.   I'll be honest, man. That's because I don't want your listeners sitting here like, oh, I don't have one of those. I don't know if I've ever met one that had all of those. If you do have all of them, yes, you should consider syndicating yourself because you got all the pieces to the puzzle. Typically, what happens is a property manager has the property managers. I'll give you a great example. I got a 54 unit down in North Carolina. OK, so I came in as a key principal. I've got a.   Jason Hull (38:03) Okay.   Okay.   John Casmon (38:20) to my coaching clients. It's his property that he found. He asked me to come help him with the loan, which I did. One of the members, one of the partners is the property manager. So that's kind of their role to the table is they're managing the property. That's what they kind of came on. They had a couple of relationships, but their main role is the asset and property management side of it. So that's a great way to come to the table. But. Just like anything else in business.   Jason Hull (38:33) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (38:49) It's very hard to find someone who checks every single box. I mean, that's like finding the marketer who's a CMO, who's also the CFO, who's also the COO, who's also the chief of human resource. very like no one, people don't really have like top notch excellent skills at every single one of those, right? Like you might be great at business, great at sales, great at marketing. You're probably terrible at finance, right? Like you just, you just forget to do your expense report type person, right? So it's hard to find someone who's   checks all those boxes. And I think typically when comes to property management, you want someone who's great with people, can resolve issues, but also has to be somewhat, you know, sufficient when it comes to the numbers, tracking all the data, tracking all the, you know, the rent roll, the leases, the income and expense statements, things like that. So usually they're not going to do every single box. But again, if you can find someone or that's where partnerships make sense.   Jason Hull (39:24) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (39:43) If you've got that awesome. And again, I'm not saying a company doesn't have that. I'm just saying a single individual doesn't, which is why it's great to partner. If you can find someone who maybe brings a set of skills that you don't have, whether they're joining you in your property management business or they're partnering up where you're bringing your property management skills to the table with their investing or their networking skills, that makes for a good partnership.   Jason Hull (39:43) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I got it. Well, we've got several clients, you know, all over the U S that are really good at property management. They're really good at handling the maintenance stuff and they obviously have a pool of investors as clients and, and, know, and they know that they can't do everything. So we coach them in making sure that they would do time studies. They figure out which, what their purpose is. We start to align them towards more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution and more support in their business.   John Casmon (40:32) Yeah.   Jason Hull (40:38) And they start to build the right team. So they're getting operators, they're getting BDMs, they're getting the things they're not like strong in. And so we just make healthier businesses. So for those of maybe my clients listening that have healthy property management companies. And, but they don't want to do syndication. They're just like, man, that's a whole nother business. If I stay in my lane, I can grow that faster. How do they find syndicates? Like, how do they find people like you? Cause you've got a lot of properties connected to you.   and they would probably love to chat with somebody like you. Where do you syndicate people hang out? What's the title? Who runs a syndicate? What are they called? Do they have a specific title?   John Casmon (41:15) You   Yeah.   Yeah, great. Great question. Multifamily syndicator is is kind of the name just syndicator. We're all over. So I've got a podcast called Multifamily Insights. I interview like minded individuals. I've been doing that for a long time. We've done our seven hundred and seventy plus episode. So lots of people, lots of syndicators there. Definitely conferences. So if you look up any multifamily conference in your city.   Jason Hull (41:25) Okay.   Nice.   Okay.   John Casmon (41:46) meetups, lot of meetups in different cities as well. Those are great places to find syndicators. I think the biggest thing though is this.   Figure out who your avatar is. Because while we're talking about syndicators, ultimately, if you want to scale your property management business, I presume you're trying to scale with folks who are looking for third party management and the best option for that. OK, and let me back up. had one of the guests out of a podcast some years back, ⁓ Ashley Wilson. Love Ashley. As you said, something really changed when I thought about the business.   And she said the best way to find any vendor, any vendor is to figure out who relies on that vendor next and ask them for referral. So if you think about it, if you want a great drywall person, ask a painter. A painter is going to know who's great at drywall because they're going to know who makes their job easy and they can come in and just start painting versus a drywall guy who maybe doesn't, you know, you know.   Jason Hull (42:38) I like it.   John Casmon (42:55) mud the drywall properly or doesn't sand it down. So they got to do all this extra work before they start their process. Right. So a painter is going to know a great drywall guy. And in this case, it's really hard on ⁓ the property manager because you guys are the ones who do the work. But if you are looking for syndicators, OK, well syndicators, person who buys the deal. Well, who sells the deal? A broker. Find brokers. Go to a broker, commercial multifamily broker and ask them, hey,   Jason Hull (43:01) I love this.   Yeah.   John Casmon (43:25) Do you know some groups or you have properties that you're going to list? Here are the kind of deals we want to do now on the flip side of that. You got to be good at your job, right? You got to sell yourself and share what you do. So if you've got a great track record, a great resume, showcase that, bring that broker through and let them know, hey, we're looking to scale our property management business here. Here are the kind of assets that we want to manage. If you come across any of these that you're going to list, would you mind keeping our main name out there or referring us or giving us introductions to any of those buyers?   Jason Hull (43:53) Yeah.   John Casmon (43:54) so that we can throw our hat in the running to manage these properties. That's a phenomenal way to do that. And it allows you to shine and expand your relationships in your core networks and in your core markets.   Jason Hull (44:06) Brilliant. think I love the, I love Ashley's idea that you shared, you know, the drywall. Yeah. The painters, like they don't want to be painting over a crappy drywall. They're like, this is a mess. Like this doesn't even look good in my job. Now I'm going to look bad. Yeah. So the brokers know who maybe those best syndicators are. And so they could just go to the brokers and say, Hey, who's, who's doing deals like this? Who who's got things going on? Like who could you connect me with?   And I avoid maybe.   John Casmon (44:36) And on top of that, keep in mind, too, like what   are the times when? Yeah, but think about to like when is a property hiring or bringing on a new property manager? Right. So it's either a current owners firing the existing property manager or the property is being sold. Right. So, I mean, if you can get in during that transition phase, that's going to help you tremendously. And if even if they're firing their existing property manager, you can think through, OK, how do I?   Jason Hull (44:51) Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (45:06) work myself and get my name out there. And a lot of times, again, you're going to ask, right? You're going to ask other investors. If I were going through that process, I'm going to call my buddies into space, right? And say, hey, man, having a hard time, my current PM is not working out or we're not hitting our objectives, looking at some other options. Do you have any experience with these guys? What do you know about these guys? Or do you have anybody you could recommend? It's word of mouth, right? So that's what's going to start happening as well. So you kind of have to get out there and network and let folks know who you are, what you do. But you want to be someone who   people can say, yeah, these guys are amazing. You know, they, they only had an eight unit, but they crushed my eight unit for me. I'm sure they kill your 25 unit or your 50 unit. And you've got to start building that rapport and building your reputation in your market.   Jason Hull (45:44) Yeah.   Nice. This is good advice, my friend. So, cool. For those that maybe are investors listening to this show, ⁓ I'd love to hear a little bit about what you do, how you do run your syndication, and how they can ⁓ make things more passive, if that's what they're looking   John Casmon (46:08) Yeah, man. So there are lots of different ways to get in. If you are looking to be more passive, ⁓ high level, here's how it works. OK, so first and foremost, me and my team would go out. We look for the deals. We focus on a really tight radius. So we're in Cincinnati. We like Cincinnati, Columbus, Louisville, Kentucky. Really a two hour radius of the Cincinnati market is where we focus. And right now we actually think there's more opportunities locally. So we're really honed in on Cincinnati right now. But we focus on that once we find a deal.   We reach out to folks in our network. So we have folks in our investor list. ⁓ Once they're on our list, we kind of have a quick vetting process and then we can share opportunities with them. Once they see that opportunity, they get a chance to review it. We like to have a webinar where we answer any questions about the deal. I think for new investors, it's a great way to learn because we have a lot of experienced investors who ask very intelligent, thoughtful questions that   Many first time investors probably would not even think of. And that's a great way to learn, right? And ultimately when it comes to this space, it's really about education. know, it's educating yourself, understanding how you think about risk, how you mitigate risk in your investment choices. And those webinars are a great chance for you to learn about that the first time. Once you've done that, you can go ahead and fill out our official paperwork with our SEC documents.   Jason Hull (47:30) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (47:30) And then   once you're through there, you can make the investment. But the first thing is just to get on our list, you can have access to the deals. And before you do that, we've actually put together a guide that can help people because I found that when I have these calls, people don't ask great questions. Sometimes they do. But I want to make sure that you are informed and well educated because this is a big investment. You know, this is not a 599 thing. And if it doesn't work out, OK, well, I just wasted six bucks. No.   Jason Hull (47:54) .   John Casmon (47:59) We're asking you to make a pretty large investment, whether it's with us or with others. If that's what you're looking to do, I want to make sure you're well informed. So we put together a guide. It's seven questions you must ask before investing in apartments. You can get that on our website. It's casmancapital.com slash seven questions, but it gets into questions around the market itself, the operating team, what you should be looking for, the deal. What is the story of this property? What's the business plan? And it helps you identify different levels of risk because the reality is   Anything can work, but you want to mitigate risk as much as possible, particularly when you're a passive investor, because you are basically saying, I'm trusting these people to find the right deal and execute. And you want to make sure that you are finding and identifying the right individuals who have a proven track record doing the thing that they are asking to do. When I hear about people losing money in real estate. At least 50, if not 70 % of the time.   Jason Hull (48:35) Hmm.   John Casmon (48:57) It is someone doing something for the first time. It is the first time in the market, first time doing this kind of deal, first time doing this kind of business plan. And. I can't tell you how frustrating it is because it's a big red flag, and it's not to say they can't do it and can't have success. But if it's your first time, I want to see how you're mitigating that right. You want to partner with someone who does have the experience you want. Like there are lot of things that you can do to put the odds in your favor. And when you're a passive investor.   Jason Hull (48:59) Mm, yeah.   John Casmon (49:26) It is not your job to hope. Your job is to analyze the information in front of you and make an informed decision. So this guide can help you do that.   Jason Hull (49:34) Yeah, love it. I'm going to run a quick word from our sponsor real quick. Our sponsor for this episode is Vendero. And many of you tell me that property management maintenance is probably the least enjoyable part of being a property manager and definitely the most time consuming. But what if you could cut that workload by up to 85 percent? That's exactly what Vendero has achieved. So they leverage cutting edge AI technology to handle nearly all your maintenance tasks from initiating work orders.   Troubleshooting, coordinating with vendors and reporting. This AI doesn't just automate, it becomes your ideal employee. Learning your preferences, executing tasks flawlessly and never needing a day off and never quitting. This frees you up to focus on the critical tasks that really move the needle for your business, whether that's refining operations, expanding your portfolio or even just taking a well-deserved break. Don't let maintenance drag you down. Step up your property management game with Vendero. Visit vendero.ai slash door grow today and make this the last maintenance hire you'll ever need.   All right, so John, this is super helpful. love you've got your list. ⁓ You got your webinar, you've got your guide. I would recommend property managers listening to this. If they're curious about the world of syndication, that they start getting into your stuff and seeing how an expert like you is doing this and maybe even get involved in some of the deals with you or something might be a good idea. And they can kind of get a feel for how this works. And then maybe they'll say, I don't want to do what John does.   And I'll just find people that do, but they'll at least understand how they could partner with people like that. then, or they may decide, you know what? John's clever, but I'm clever too. I might be able to figure out how to do this too. And maybe they'll do it too. And, but I think there's a solid opportunity for property managers that want to be in the multifamily space and do multifamily management to find third party people that are doing these syndication deals. They need good property managers and property managers want more doors and they want to grow.   And if you don't, because your business sucks and it's uncomfortable, then reach out to me. I'll help you out. We'll get you dialed in. But ⁓ John, what else would you say to the investors that are maybe they're familiar with this and they've done some real estate investing and they've worked with some syndications ⁓ and they get on your list to do the webinar. What would you say to them next?   John Casmon (51:56) Yeah, I think the biggest thing is understand what you're looking for. You know, I think one of the biggest challenges for investors is when you can't pull the trigger, it's typically because you haven't figured out what you're solving for. Are you looking for passive income? So you're just looking for a cash flow? Are you looking for long term wealth appreciation? Are you looking for tax benefits and to reduce kind of your tax liability? Do just want to diversify? Maybe you got feel like you have too much in a stock market, just like we put something somewhere else. So.   Figure out what you're actually solving for. Understand your risk tolerance, you know, because every deal is different. In our case, we do value add B class deals. That's a fancy way of just saying we like properties that already making money that are solid, solid tenant based. Think of when I say B class, I'm thinking of all stuff that was built maybe 30 years ago, maybe 40, maybe 20 years ago. Stuff that.   your teachers, your firefighters, your police officers, places where they might rent. So desirable locations, not luxury, not super high end, not, you know, super courts, everything. ⁓ But, you know, places that you would want your kid, your kid was in college, places you would be fine with your kid living, right? So you're thinking about that stuff. That's, you know, I don't say affordable stuff. That's not crazy price. So that's kind of what we focus on.   Jason Hull (53:15) So would   that be like, is that how you find the best markets then?   John Casmon (53:21) That's part of it. That's our strategy. There are different strategies that people utilize. I have found for us that is a sweet spot where we can take those kind of assets, modernize them and create value for potential renters. Some people like to focus only on they call it core plus right where they're buying newer stuff, stuff built five years ago or three years ago. And maybe it was, you know, leased up and they're just going to go in and hold it longer. You'll find other ways to add more money through amenities.   Jason Hull (53:35) Okay.   John Casmon (53:50) So some people do that strategy. Some people like older properties where they're buying more distressed or much older properties and are trying to fully renovate them and bring them up. There are strategies out there, something like new construction, stuff that doesn't exist. They want to build from the ground up. So it really comes down to you. Every investing strategy has a different level of risk. This has nothing to with real estate, right? This is investing in general. you're buying, you know, know, value stocks versus growth stocks versus Internet, it's the same stuff, right?   So you just have to figure out your level of risk. We like value at B-class multifamily deals. Once you understand your level of risk and balance that with your return expectations or projections, that's when you can figure out which investments actually make sense. You know, I have some folks who they like to invest in what we call trophy assets. And...   They may not know that right away, but when you send them a couple of deals and they look at the property like, ⁓ it's okay. They want something. They want something they can brag about. They want to drive you by like, see that building over there? That's me. And if that's fine, if that's what you want, understand what comes with that, right? That's going to be a lower term, right? Because these are, there's not much value to create, right? You've got a brand new property. It's A class, rents are $2,500. There's not a whole lot you can do there. And because of that,   Jason Hull (54:49) Yeah, they don't want to show that off. Look what I'm connecting.   OK, right.   Thank   Yeah.   John Casmon (55:13) There's not as much risk. So you're going to get less return because there's less risk. That's fun. Some people want to maximize their return, right? Hey, I don't need this money. I want to let it ride for 20 years. So they might want to do new construction or they might want to do a deep discount, highly distressed vacant property that needs, you know, $50,000 per unit to renovate it and turn around because the upside is there. So it just depends on that investor and your level of risk. Right. And most of us fall somewhere in the middle.   Jason Hull (55:27) Thank   John Casmon (55:43) which is kind of our strategy. figure out your level of risk tolerance, what you're looking for. And sometimes you don't know until you start looking at a Because you might think you're a cashflow person until I show you what cash flows. And you're like, oh, no, I don't want to be in that de

Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman join our podcast to discuss how psychedelic policy is actually moving in Washington, DC. Lavasani leads Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, a DC-based advocacy organization focused on educating federal officials and advancing legislation around psychedelic medicine. Kopelman is CEO of Mission Within Foundation, which provides scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy retreats, often outside the United States. The conversation centers on veterans, the VA, and why that system may be the first realistic federal pathway for psychedelic care. Early Themes Lavasani describes PMC's work on Capitol Hill, including hosting events that bring lawmakers, staffers, and advocates into the same room. Her focus is steady engagement. In DC, progress often happens through repeated conversations, not headlines. Kopelman shares his background as a Marine and how his own psychedelic-assisted therapy experience led him to Mission Within. The foundation has funded more than 250 scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking treatment for PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, depression, and addiction. They connect this work to pending veteran-focused legislation and explain why the VA matters. As a closed health system, the VA can pilot programs, gather data, and refine protocols without the pressures of private healthcare markets. Core Insights A recent Capitol Hill gathering, For Veteran Society, brought together members of Congress and leaders from the psychedelic caucus. Lavasani describes candid feedback from lawmakers. The message was clear: coordinate messaging, avoid fragmentation, and move while bipartisan interest remains. Veteran healthcare is not framed as the final goal. It is a starting point. If psychedelic therapies can demonstrate safety and effectiveness within the VA, broader adoption becomes more plausible. Kopelman raises operational realities that must be addressed: Standardized safety protocols across providers Integration support, not medication alone Clear training pathways for clinicians Real-world data beyond tightly screened clinical trials They also address recent negative headlines involving ibogaine treatment abroad. Kopelman emphasizes the need for shared learning across providers, especially when adverse events occur. Lavasani argues that inconsistency within the ecosystem can slow federal confidence. Later Discussion and Takeaways The discussion widens to federal momentum around addiction and mental health. Lavasani notes that new funding initiatives signal growing openness to innovative treatment models, even if psychedelics are not named explicitly in every announcement. Both guests stress that policy moves slowly by design. Meetings, follow-ups, and relationship building often matter more than public statements. For clinicians, researchers, operators, and advocates, the takeaways are direct: Veterans are likely the first federal pathway Public education remains essential Safety standards must be shared and transparent Integration and workforce development need attention now If psychedelic medicine enters federal systems, infrastructure will determine success. Frequently Asked Questions What do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman say about VA psychedelic policy? They argue that veteran-focused legislation offers a realistic first federal pathway for psychedelic-assisted care. Is ibogaine currently available through the VA? No. They discuss ibogaine in the context of private retreats and future possibilities, not an existing VA program. Why do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman emphasize coordination? Lawmakers respond more positively when advocates present aligned messaging and clear priorities. What safety issues are discussed by Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman? They highlight the need for standardized screening, monitoring, integration support, and transparent review of adverse events. Closing Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman provide a grounded look at how psychedelic policy develops inside federal systems. Their message is practical: veterans may be the first lane, but long-term success depends on coordination, safety standards, and sustained engagement. Closing This episode captures a real-time view of how federal policy could shape the next phase of the psychedelic resurgence, especially through veteran-facing legislation and VA infrastructure. Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman argue that coordination, public education, and shared safety standards will shape whether access expands with credibility and care. Transcript Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics Today. Today we have two guests, um, got Melissa Sani from Psychedelic Medicine Coalition. We got Jake Pelman from Mission Within Foundation. We're gonna talk about I bga I became policy on a recent, uh, set of meetings in Washington, DC and, uh, all sorts of other things I'm sure. Joe Moore: But thank you both for joining me. Melissa Lavasani: Thanks for having us. Jay Kopelman: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, Melissa, I wanna have you, uh, jump in. First. Can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your work and what you do at PMC? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, so Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is, um, the only DC based Washington DC based advocacy organization dedicated to the advancing the issue of psychedelics, um, and making sure the federal government has the education they need, um, and understands the issue inside out so that they can generate good policy around, around psychedelic medicines. Melissa Lavasani: [00:01:00] Uh, we. Host Hill events. We host other convenings. Our big event every year is the Federal Summit on psychedelic medicine. Um, that's going to be May 14th this year. Um, where we talk about kinda the pressing issues that need to be talked about, uh, with government officials in the room, um, so that we can incrementally move this forward. Melissa Lavasani: Um, our presence here in Washington DC is, is really critical for this issue's success because, um, when we're talking about psychedelic medicines, um, from the federal government pers perspective, you know, they are, they are the ones that are going to initiate the policies that create a healthcare system that can properly facilitate these medicines and make sure, um, patient safety is a priority. Melissa Lavasani: And there's guardrails on this. And, um, you know, there, it's, it's really important that we have. A home base for this issue in Washington DC just [00:02:00] because, uh, this is very complicated as a lot of your viewers probably understand, and, you know, this can get lost in the mix of all the other issues that, um, lawmakers in DC are focused on right now. Melissa Lavasani: And we need to keep that consistent presence here so that this continues to be a priority for members of Congress. Joe Moore: Mm. I love this. And Jay, can you tell us a bit about yourself and mission within Foundation? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, sure. Joe, thanks. Uh, I, I am the CEO of Mission within Foundation. Prior to this, most of my adult life was spent in the military as a Marine. Jay Kopelman: And I came to this. Role after having, uh, a psychedelic assisted therapy experience myself at the mission within down in Mexico, which is where pretty much we all go. Um, we are here to help [00:03:00] provide, uh, access for veterans and first responders to be able to attend psychedelic assisted therapy retreats to treat issues like mild TBI, post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, depression, sometimes addiction at, at a very low level. Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and so we've, we've been doing this for a little more than a year now and have provided 250 plus scholarships to veterans and first responders to be able to access. These retreats and these, these lifesaving medicines. Um, we're also partnered, uh, you may or may not know with Melissa at Psychedelic Medicine Coalition to help advance education and policy, specifically the innovative, uh, therapy Centers of Excellence Act [00:04:00] that Melissa has worked for a number of years on now to bring to both Houses of Congress. Joe Moore: Thank you for that. Um, so let's chat a little bit about what this event was that just, uh, went down, uh, what, what was it two weeks ago at this point? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Yeah. It's called For Veteran Society and it's all, um, there's a lot of dialogue on Capitol Hill about veterans healthcare and psychedelics, but where I've been frustrated is that, you know, it was just a lot of. Melissa Lavasani: Talk about what the problems are and not a lot of talk about like how we actually propel things forward. Um, so it, at that event, I thought it was really important and we had three members of Congress there, um, Morgan Latrell, who has been a champion from day one and his time in Congress, um, having gone through the experience himself, um, [00:05:00] at Mission within, um, and then the two chairs of the psychedelic caucus, uh, Lou Correa and Jack Bergman. Melissa Lavasani: And we really got down to the nitty gritty of like w like why this has taken so long and you know, what is actually happening right now? What are the possibilities and what the roadblocks are. And it was, I thought it was a great conversation. Um, we had an interesting kind of dynamic with Latres is like a very passionate about this issue in particular. Melissa Lavasani: Um, I think it was, I think it was really. A great event. And, you know, two days later, Jack Bergman introduced his new bill for the va. Um, so it was kind of like the precursor to that bill getting introduced. And we're just excited for more and more conversations about how the government can gently guide this issue to success. Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. [00:06:00] That's fantastic. Um, yeah, I was a little bummed I couldn't make it, but next time, I hope. But I've heard a lot of good things and, um, it's, it sounded like there was some really important messages in, in terms of like feedback from legislators. Yeah. Yeah. Could you speak to that? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, I think when, uh, representative Latrell was speaking, he really impressed on us a couple things. Melissa Lavasani: Um, first is that, you know, they really kind of need the advocates to. Coordinate, collaborate and come up with like a, a strategic plan, you know, without public education. Um, talking to members of Congress about this issue is, is really difficult. You know, like PMC is just one organization. We're very little mission within, very little, um, you know, we're all like, kind of new in navigating, um, this not so new issue, but new to Washington DC [00:07:00] issue. Melissa Lavasani: Um, without that public education as a baseline, uh, it's, it's, you have to spend a lot of time educating members of Congress. You know, that's like one of our things is, you know, we have to, we don't wanna tell Congress what direction to go to. We wanna provide them the information so they understand it very intimately and know how to navigate through things. Melissa Lavasani: Um, and secondly. Um, he got pretty frank with us and said, you know, we've got one cha one chance at this issue. And it's like, that's, that's kind of been like my talking point since I started. PMC is like, you have a very limited window, um, when these kind of issues pop up and they're new and they're fresh and you have a lot of the veteran community coming out and talking about it. Melissa Lavasani: And there's a lot of energy there. But now is the time to really move forward, um, with some real legislation that can be impactful. Um, but, you know, we've gotta [00:08:00] be careful. We, we forget, I think sometimes those of us who are in the ecosystem forget that our level of knowledge about these medicines and a lot of us have firsthand experience, um, with these drugs and, and our own healing journeys is, um, we forget that there is a public out there that doesn't have the level of knowledge that we all have. Melissa Lavasani: And, um. We gotta make sure that we're sticking to the right elements of, of, of what needs to happen. We need to be sure that our talking points are on track and we're not getting sideways about anything and going down roads that we don't need to talk about. It's why, um, you know, PMC is very focused on, um, moving forward veteran legislation right now. Melissa Lavasani: Not because we're a veteran organization, but because we're, we see this long-term policy track here. Um, we know where we want to get [00:09:00] to, um. Um, and watching other healthcare issues kind of come up and then go through the VA healthcare system, I think it's a really unique opportunity, um, to utilize the VA as this closed system, the biggest healthcare system in the country to evaluate, uh, how psychedelics operate within systems like that. Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, before they get into, um, other healthcare systems. What do we need to fix? What do we need to pay attention to? What's something that we're paying too much attention to that doesn't necessarily need that much attention? So it's, um, it's a real opportunity to look at psychedelic medicines within a healthcare system and obviously continue to gather the data. Melissa Lavasani: Um, Bergman's Bill emerging, uh, expanding veteran access to emerging treatments. Um, not only mandates the research, it gives the VA authority for this, uh, for running trials and, and creating programs around psychedelic medicines. But also, [00:10:00] one of the great things about it, I think, is it provides an on-ramp for veterans that don't necessarily qualify for clinical trials. Melissa Lavasani: You know, I think that's one of the biggest criticisms of clinical trials is like you're cre you're creating a vacuum for people and people don't live in a vacuum. So we don't necessarily know what psychedelics are gonna look like in real life. Um, but with this expanding veteran access bill that Bergman introduced, it provides the VA an opportunity to provide this access under. Melissa Lavasani: Um, in a, in a safe container with medical supervision while collecting data, um, while ensuring that the veteran that is going through this process has the support systems that it needs. So, um, you know, I think that there's a really unique opportunity here, and like Latrell said, like, we've got one shot at this. Melissa Lavasani: We have people's attention in Congress. Um, now's the time to start acting, and let's be really considerate and thoughtful about what we're doing with it. Joe Moore: Thanks for that, Melissa and Jay, how, [00:11:00] anything to add there on kind of your takeaways from the this, uh, last visit in dc? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I, I think that Melissa highlighted it really well and there, there were a couple other things that I, I think, you know, you could kind of tie it all together with some other issues that we face in this country, uh, and that. Jay Kopelman: Uh, representative Correa brought up as well, but one of the things I wanted to go back and say is that veterans have kind of led this movement already, right? So, so it's a, it's a good jumping off point, right? That it's something people from both sides of the aisle, from any community in America can get behind. Jay Kopelman: You know, if you think about it, uh, in World War ii, you know, we had a million people serving our population was like, not even 200 million, but now [00:12:00] we have a population of 330 million, and at any given time there might be a million people in uniform, including the Reserve and the National Guard. So it's, it, it's an easy thing to get behind this small part of the population that is willing to sign that contract. Jay Kopelman: Where you are saying, yeah, I'm going to defend my country, possibly at the risk of my l my own life. So that's the first thing. The other thing is that the VA being a closed health system, and they don't have shareholders to answer to, they can take some risks, they can be innovative and be forward thinking in the ways that some other healthcare systems can't. Jay Kopelman: And so they have a perfect opportunity to show that they truly care for their veterans, which don't, I'm not saying they don't, but this would be an [00:13:00] opportunity to show that carrot at a whole different level. Uh, it would allow them to innovate and be a leader in something as, uh, as our friend Jim Hancock will say, you know. Jay Kopelman: When he went to the Naval Academy, they had the world's best shipbuilding program. Why doesn't the VA have the world's best care program for things like TBI and PTSD, which affects, you know, 40 something percent of all veterans, right? So, so there's, there's an opportunity here for the VA to lead from the front. Jay Kopelman: Um, the, these medicines provide, you know, reasonably lasting care where it's kind of a one and done. Whereas with the current systems, the, you know, and, and [00:14:00] again, not to denigrate the VA in any way, they're doing the best job they can with the tools in their toolbox, right? But maybe it's time for a trip to Home Depot. Jay Kopelman: Let's get some new tools. And have some new ways of fixing what's broken, which is really the way of doing things. It's not, veterans aren't broken, we are who we are. Um, but it's a, it's a way to fix what isn't working. So I, I think that, you know, given there's tremendous veteran homelessness still, you know, addiction issues, all these things that do translate to the population at large are things that can be worked on in this one system, the va that can then be shown to have efficacy, have good data, have [00:15:00] good outcomes, and, and take it to the population at large. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Thanks for that. And so there was another thing I wanted to pivot to, which is some of the recent press. So we've, um, seen a little bit of press around some, um, in one instance, some bad behavior in Mexico that a FI put out Americans thrive again, put out. And then another case there was a, a recent fatality. Joe Moore: And I think, um, both are tragic. Like we shouldn't be having to deal with this at this point. Um, but there's a lot of things that got us here. Um, it's not necessarily the operator's fault entirely, um, or even at all, honestly, like some medical interventions just carry a lot of risk. Like think, think about like, uh, how risky bypass surgery was in the nineties, right? Joe Moore: Like people were dying a lot from medical interventions and um, you know, this is a major intervention, uh, ibogaine [00:16:00] and also a lot of promise. To help people quite a bit. Um, but as of right now, there's, there's risk. And part of that risk, in my opinion, comes from the inability of organizations to necessarily collaborate. Joe Moore: Like there's no kind of convening body, sitting in the middle, allowing, um, for, and facilitating really good data sharing and learnings. Um, and I don't, I don't necessarily see an organization stepping up and being the, um, the convener for that kind of work. I've heard rumors that something's gonna happen there, and I'm, I'm hopeful I'll always wanna share my opinion on that. Joe Moore: But yeah. I don't know. Jay, from your perspective, is there anything you want to kind of speak to about, uh, these two recent incidents that Americans for Iboga kind of publicized recently? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, so I, I'll echo your sentiment, of course, that these are tragic incidents. Um, and I, [00:17:00] I think that at least in the case of the death at Ambio, AMBIO has done a very good job of talking about it, right? Jay Kopelman: They've been very honest with the information that they have. And like you said, there are risks inherent to these medicines, and it's like anything else in medicine, there are going to be risks. You know, when I went through, uh, when I, when I went through chemo, you know, there were, there are risks. You know, you don't feel well, you get sick. Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and it. There are processes in place to counter that when it happens. And there are processes and, and procedures and safety protocols in place when caring for somebody going through an ibogaine [00:18:00] journey. Uh, when I did it, we had EKG echocardiogram. You're on a heart monitor the entire time they push magnesium via iv. Jay Kopelman: You have to provide a urinalysis sample to make sure that there is nothing in your system that is going to potentially harm you. During the ibogaine, they have, uh, a cardiologist who is monitoring the heart monitors throughout the ibogaine experience. So the, the safety protocols are there. I think it's, I think it's just a matter of. Jay Kopelman: Standardizing them across all, all providers, right? Like, that would be a good thing if people would talk to one another. Um, as, as in any system, right? You've gotta have [00:19:00] some collaboration. You've gotta have standardization, you know, so, you know, they're not called standard operating procedures for nothing. Jay Kopelman: That means that in a, you know, in a given environment, everybody does things the same way. It's true in Navy and Marine Corps, air Force, army Aviation, they have standard operating procedures for every single aircraft. So if you fly, let's say the F 35 now, right? Because it's flown by the Navy, the Marine Corps, and the Air Force. Jay Kopelman: The, the emergency procedures in that airplane are standardized across all three services, so you should have the same, or, you know, with within a couple of different words, the same procedures and processes [00:20:00] across all the providers, right? Like maybe in one document you're gonna change, happy to glad and small dog to puppy, but it's still pretty much the, the same thing. Jay Kopelman: And as a service that provides scholarships to people to go access these medicines and go to these retreats, you know, my criteria is that the, this provider has to be safe. Number one, safety's paramount. It's always gotta be very safe. It should, it has to be effective. And you know, once you have those two things in place, then I have a comfort level saying, okay, yeah, we'll work with this provider. Jay Kopelman: But until those standardized processes are in place, you'll probably see these one-off things. I mean, some providers have been doing this longer than others and have [00:21:00] really figured out, you know, they've, they've cracked the code and, you know, sharing that across the spectrum would be good. Um, but just when these things happen, having a clearing house, right, where everybody can come together and talk about it, you know, like once the facts are known because. Jay Kopelman: To my knowledge, we still don't know all the facts. Like as, you know, as horrible as this is, you still have to talk about like an, has an autopsy been performed? What was found in the patient's system? You know, there, there are things there that we don't know. So we need to, we need to know that before we can start saying, okay, well this is how we can fix that, because we just don't know. Jay Kopelman: And, you know, to their credit, you know, Amio has always been safe to, to the, to the best of my knowledge. You know, I, [00:22:00] I haven't been to Ambio myself, but people that I have worked with have been there. They have observed, they have seen the process. They believe it's safe, and I trust their opinion because they've seen it elsewhere as well. Jay Kopelman: So yeah, having, having that one place where we can all come together when this happens, it, it's almost like it should be mandatory. In the military when there's a training accident, we, you know, we would have to have what's called a safety standout. And you don't do that again for a little while until you figure out, okay, how are we going to mitigate that happening again? Jay Kopelman: Believe me, you can go overboard and we don't want to do that. Like, we don't wanna just stop all care, but maybe stop detox for a week and then come back to it. [00:23:00] Joe Moore: Yeah. A dream would be, let's get like the, I don't know, 10, 20 most popular, uh, or well-known operators together somewhere and just do like a three day debrief. Joe Moore: Hey, everybody, like, here's what we see. Let's work on this together. You know how normal medicine works. And this is, it's hard because this is not necessarily, um, something people feel safe about in America talking about 'cause it's illicit here. Um, I don't understand necessarily how the operations, uh, relate to each other in Mexico, but I think that's something to like the public should dig into. Joe Moore: Like, what, what is this? And I, I'll start digging into that. Um, I, I asked a question recently of somebody like, is there some sort of like back channel signal everybody's using and there's no clear Yes. You know? Um, I think it would be good. That's just a [00:24:00] start, you know, that's like, okay, we can actually kind of say hi and watch out for this to each other. Jay Kopelman: It's not like we don't all know one another, right? Joe Moore: Yes. Jay Kopelman: Like at least three operators we're represented. At the Aspen Ibogaine meeting. So like that could be, and I think there was a panel kind of loosely related to this during Aspen Ibogaine meeting, but Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: It, you know, have a breakout where the operators can go sit down and kind of compare notes. Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. Melissa, do you have any, uh, comments on this thread here? And I, I put you on mute if you didn't see that. Um, Melissa Lavasani: all right, I'm off mute. Um, yeah, I think that Jay's hits the nail on the head with the collaboration thing. Um, I think that it's just a [00:25:00] problem across the entire ecosystem, and I think that's just a product of us being relatively new and upcoming field. Melissa Lavasani: Um, uh, it's a product of, you know. Our fundraising community is really small, so organizations feel like they are competing for the same dollars, even though their, their goals are all the same, they have different functions. Um, I think with time, I mean, let's be honest, like if we don't start collaborating and, and the federal government's moving forward, the federal government's gonna coordinate for us. Melissa Lavasani: And not, that might not necessarily be a bad thing, but, you know, we understand this issue to a whole other level that the federal government doesn't, and they're not required to understand it deeply. They just need to know how to really move forward with it the proper way. Um, but I think that it. It's really essential [00:26:00] that we all have this come together moment here so we can avoid things. Melissa Lavasani: Uh, I mean, no one's gonna die from bad advocacy. So like I've, I have a bit of an easier job. Um, but it can a, a absolutely stall efforts, um, to move things forward in Washington DC when, um, one group is saying one thing, another group is saying another thing, like, we're not quite at a point yet where we can have multiple lines of conversation and multiple things moving forward. Melissa Lavasani: Um, you know, for PMC, it's like, just let's get the first thing across the finish line. And we think that is, um, veteran healthcare. And, um, I know there's plenty of other groups out there that, that want the same thing. So, you know, I always, the reason why I put on the Federal Summit last year was I kind of hit my breaking point with a lack of collaboration and I wanted to just bring everyone in the same room and say like, all right, here are the things that we need to talk about. Melissa Lavasani: And I think the goal for this year is, um. To bring people in the same room and say, we talked about [00:27:00] we scratched the surface last year and this is where we need to really put our efforts into. And this is where the opportunities are. Um, I think that is going to, that's going to show the federal government if we can organize ourselves, that they need to take this issue really seriously. Melissa Lavasani: Um, I don't think we've done a great job at that thus far, but I think there's still plenty of time for us to get it together. Um, and I'm hoping with these two, uh, VA bills that are in the house right now and Senate is, is putting together their version of these two bills, um, so that they can move in tandem with each other. Melissa Lavasani: I think that, you know, there's an opportunity here for. Us to show the federal government as an ecosystem, Hey, we, we are so much further ahead and you know, this is what we've organized and here's how we can help you, um, that would make them buy into this issue a bit more and potentially move things forward faster. Melissa Lavasani: Uh, at this point in time, it's, I think that, [00:28:00] you know, psychedelics aren't necessarily the taboo thing that they, they used to be, but there's certainly places that need attention. Um, there's certainly conversations that need to be had, and like I said, like PMC is just one organization that can do this. Um, we can certainly organize and drive forward collaboration, but I, like we alone, cannot cover all this ground and we need the subject matter experts to collaborate with us so we can, you know, once we get in the door, we wanna bring the experts in to talk to these officials about it. Melissa Lavasani: So I. I, I really want listeners to really think about us as a convener of sorts when it comes to federal policy. Um, and you know, I think when, like for example, in the early eighties, a lot of people have made comparisons to the issue of psychedelics to the issue of AIDS research and how you have in a subject matter that's like extremely taboo and a patient population that the government [00:29:00] quite honestly didn't really care about in the early eighties. Melissa Lavasani: But what they did as an ecosystem is really organized themselves, get very clear on what they wanted the federal government to do. And within a matter of a couple years, uh, AIDS research funding was a thing that was happening. And what that, what that did was that ripple effect turned that into basically finding new therapies for something that we thought was a death, death sentence before. Melissa Lavasani: So I think. We just need to look at things in the past that have been really successful, um, and, and try to take the lessons from all of these issues and, and move forward with psychedelics. Joe Moore: Love that. And yes, we always need to be figuring out efficient approaches and where it has been successful in the past is often, um, an opportunity to mimic and, and potentially improve on that. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Jay Kopelman: One, one thing I think it's important to add to this part of the conversation is that, [00:30:00] you know, Melissa pointed out there are a number of organizations that are essentially doing the same thing. Jay Kopelman: Um, you know, I like to think we do things a little bit differently at Mission within Foundation in that we don't target any one specific type of service member. We, we work with all veterans. We work with first responders, but. What that leads to is that there are, as far as I've seen, nothing but good intentioned people in this space. Jay Kopelman: You know, people who really care about their patient population, they care about healing, they are trying to do a good job, and more importantly, they're trying to do good. Right? It, it, I think they all see the benefit down the road that this has, [00:31:00] pardon me, not just for veterans, but for society as a whole. Jay Kopelman: And, and ultimately that's where I would like to see this go. You know, I, I would love to see the VA take this. Take up this mantle and, and run with it and provide great data, great outcomes. You know, we are doing some data collection ourselves at Mission within foundation, albeit anecdotal based on surveys given before and after retreats. Jay Kopelman: But we're also working with, uh, Greg Fonzo down at UT Austin on a brain study he's doing that will have 40 patients in it when it's all said and done. And I think we have two more guys to put through that. Uh, and then we'll hit the 40. So there, there's a lot of good here that's being done by some really, really good people who've been doing this for a long time [00:32:00] and want to want nothing more than to, to see this. Jay Kopelman: Come to, come full circle so that we can take care of many, many, many people. Um, you know, like I say, I, I wanna work myself out of a job here. I, I just, I would love to see this happen and then I, you know, I don't have to send guys to Mexico to do this. They can go to their local VA and get the care that they need. Jay Kopelman: Um, but one thing that I don't think we've touched on yet, or regarding that is that the VA isn't designed for that. So it's gonna be a pretty big lift to get the right types of providers into the va with the knowledge, right, with the institutional knowledge of how this should be done, what is safe, what is effective, um, and then it, it's not just providing these medicines to [00:33:00] people and sending them home. Jay Kopelman: You don't just do that, you've gotta have the right therapists on the backend who can provide the integration coaching to the folks who are receiving these medicines. And I'm not just talking, I bga, even with MDMA and psilocybin, you should have a proper period of integration. It helps you to understand how this is going to affect you, what it, what the experience really meant, you know, because it's very difficult sometimes to just interpret it on your own. Jay Kopelman: And so what the experience was and what it meant to you. And, and so it will take some time to spin all that up. But once it's, once it's in place, you know, the sky's the limit. I think. Joe Moore: Kinda curious Jay, about what's, what's going on with Ibogaine at the federal level. Is there anything at VA right now? [00:34:00] Jay Kopelman: At the va? No, not with ibogaine. And, you know, uh, we, we send people specifically for IBOGAINE and five MEO, right? And, and so that, that doesn't preclude my interest in seeing this legislation passed, right? Jay Kopelman: Because it, it will start with something like MDMA or psilocybin, but ultimately it could grow to iboga, right? It the think about the cost savings at, at the va, even with psilocybin, right? Where you could potentially treat somebody with a very inexpensive dose of psilocybin or, or iboga one time, and then you, you don't have to treat them again. Jay Kopelman: Now, if I were, uh, you know, a VA therapist who's not trained in psychedelic trauma therapy. I might be worried [00:35:00] about job security, but it's like with anything, right? Like ultimately it will open pathways for new people to get that training or the existing people to get that training and, and stay on and do that work. Jay Kopelman: Um, which only adds another arrow to their quiver as far as I'm concerned, because this is coming and we're gonna need the people. It's just like ai, right? Like ai, yeah. Some people are gonna lose some jobs initially, and that's unfortunate. But productivity ultimately across all industries will increase and new jobs will be created as a result of that. Jay Kopelman: I mean, I was watching Squawk Box one morning. They were talking about the AI revolution and how there's gonna be a need for 500,000 electricians to. Build these systems that are going to work with the AI [00:36:00] supercomputers and, and so, Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: Where, where an opportunity may be lost. I think several more can be gained going forward. Melissa Lavasani: And just to add on what Jay just said there, there's nothing specific going on with Ibogaine at, at the va, but I think this administration is, is taking a real look at addiction in particular. Uh, they just launched, uh, a new initiative, uh, that's really centered on addiction treatments called the Great American Recovery. Melissa Lavasani: And, um, they're dedicating a hundred million dollars towards treating addiction as like a chronic treatable disease and not necessarily a law enforcement issue. So, um, in that initiative there will be federal grant programs for prevention and treatment and recovery. And, um, while this isn't just for psychedelic medicines, uh, I think it's a really great opportunity for the discussion of psychedelics to get elevated to the White House. Melissa Lavasani: Um, [00:37:00] there's also, previous to this announcement last week from the White House, there's been a hundred million dollars that was dedicated at, um, at ARPA h, which is. The advanced research projects, uh, agency for healthcare, um, and that is kind of an agency that's really focused on forward looking, um, treatments and technologies, uh, for, um, a, a whole slew of. Melissa Lavasani: Of issues, but this a hundred million dollars is dedicated to mental health and addiction. So there's a lot of opportunity there as well. So we, while I think, you know, some people are talking about, oh, we need a executive order on Iboga, it's like, well, you know, the, the president is thinking, um, about, you know, what issues can land with his, uh, voting block. Melissa Lavasani: And I think it's, I don't think we necessarily need a specific executive order on Iboga to call this a success. It's like, let's look at what, [00:38:00] um, what's just been announced from the White House. They're, they're all in on. Thinking creatively and finding, uh, new solutions for this. And this is kind of, this aligns with, um, HHS secretaries, uh, Robert F. Melissa Lavasani: Kennedy Junior's goals when he took on this, this role of Health Secretary. Um, addiction has been a discussion that, you know, he has personal, um, a personal tie to from his own experience. And, um, I think when this administration started, there was so much like fervor around the, the dialogue of like, everyone's talking about psychedelics. Melissa Lavasani: It was Secretary Kennedy, it was, uh, secretary Collins at the va. It was FDA Commissioner Marty Macari. And I think that there's like a lot of undue frustration within folks 'cause um, you don't necessarily snap your fingers and change happens in Washington dc This is not the city for that. And it's intentionally designed to move slow so that we can avoid really big mistakes. Melissa Lavasani: Um. [00:39:00] I think we're a year into this administration and these two announcements are, are pretty huge considering, um, you know, the, we, there are known people within domestic policy council that don't, aren't necessarily supportive of psychedelic medicine. So there's a really amazing progress here, and frustrating as it might be to, um, just be waiting for this administration to make some major move. Melissa Lavasani: I think they are making major moves like for Washington, DC These, these are major moves and we just gotta figure out how we can, um, take these initiatives and apply them to the issue of psychedelic medicines. Joe Moore: Thanks, Melissa. Um, yeah, it is, it is interesting like the amount of fervor there was at the beginning. You know, we had, uh. Kind of one of my old lawyers, Matt Zorn, jumped in with the administration. Right. And, um, you know, it was, uh, really cool to [00:40:00] see and hopeful how much energy was going on. It's been a little quiet, kind of feels like a black box a little bit, but I, you know, there was, Melissa Lavasani: that's on me. Melissa Lavasani: Maybe I, we need to be more out in public about like, what's actually happening, because I feel like, like day in and day out, it's just been, you gotta just mm-hmm. Like have that constant beat with the government. Mm-hmm. And, um, it's, it's, it's not the photo ops on the hill, it's the conversations that you have. Melissa Lavasani: It's the dinner parties you go to, it's the fundraisers you attend, you know? Mm-hmm. That's why I, I kind of have to like toot my own horn with PCs. Like, we need to be present here at, at not only on the Hill, not only at the White House, but kind of in the ecosystem of Washington DC itself. There's, it's, there are like power players here. Melissa Lavasani: There are people that are connected that can get things done, like. I mean, the other last week we had a big snow storm. I walked over to my friend's house, um, to have like a little fire sesh with them and our kids, and his next door neighbor came over. He was a member of Congress. I talked about the VA bills, like [00:41:00] we're reaching out to his office now, um, to get them, um, up to speed and hopefully get their co-sponsorship for, uh, the two VA bills. Melissa Lavasani: So, I mean, it, the little conversations you have here are just as important as the big ones with the photo ops. So, um, it, it's, it's really like, you know, building up that momentum and, and finding that time where you can really strike and make something happen. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jay, anything to add there? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I was just gonna say that, you know, I, I, I think the fervor is still there, right? Jay Kopelman: But real life happens. Melissa Lavasani: Yes, Jay Kopelman: yes. And gets in the way, right? So, Melissa Lavasani: yeah, Jay Kopelman: I, I can't imagine how many issues. Secretary Kennedy has every day much less the president. Like there's so many things that they are dealing with on a daily basis, right? It, we, we just have to work to be the squeaky wheel in, in the right way, right. Jay Kopelman: [00:42:00] With the, with the right information at the right time. Like just inundating one of these organizations with noise, it's then it be with Informa, it just becomes noise, right? It it, it doesn't help. So when we have things to say that are meaningful and impactful, we do, and Melissa does an amazing job of that. Jay Kopelman: But, you know, it, it takes time. You know, it's, you know, we're not, this is, this is like turning an aircraft carrier, not a ski boat. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Um, and. It's, it's understandably frustrating, I think for the public and the psychedelic public in particular because we see all this hope, you know, we continue to get frustrated at politics. It's nothing new, right? Um, and we, we wanna see more people get well immediately. [00:43:00] And I, I kind of, Jay from the veteran perspective, I do love the kind of loud voices like, you're making me go to Mexico for this. Joe Moore: I did that and you're making me leave the country for the thing that's gonna fix me. Like, no way. And barely a recognition that this is a valid treatment. You know, like, you know, that is complicated given how medicine is structured here domestically. But it's also, let's face the facts, like the drug war kind of prevented us from being able to do this research in the first place. Joe Moore: You know? Thanks Nixon. And like, how do we actually kind of correct course and say like, we need to spend appropriately on science here so we can heal our own people, including veterans and everybody really. It's a, it's a dire situation out there. Jay Kopelman: Yeah. It, it really is. Um, you know, we were talking briefly about addicts, right? Jay Kopelman: And you know, it's not sexy. People think of addicts as people who are weak-minded, [00:44:00] right? They don't have any self-control. Um, but, but look at, look at the opioid crisis, right? That Brian Hubbard was fighting against in Kentucky for all those years. That that was something that was given to the patient by a doctor that they then became dependent on, and a lot of people died from that. Jay Kopelman: And, and so you, you know, it's, I I don't think it's fair to just put all addicts in a box. Just like it's not fair to put all veterans in a box. Just like it's not fair for doctors, put all their patients in a box. We're individuals. We, we have individual needs. Our, our health is very individual. Like, I, I don't think I should be put in the same box as every other 66-year-old that my doctor sees. Jay Kopelman: It's not fair. [00:45:00] You know, if you, if you took my high school classmates and put us all in a photo, we're all gonna have different needs, right? Like, some look like they're 76, not 66. Some look like they're 56. Not like they're, we, we do things differently. We live our lives differently. And the same is true of addicts. Jay Kopelman: They come to addiction from different places. Not everybody decides they want to just try heroin at a party, and all of a sudden they're addicted. It happens in, in different ways, you know, and the whole fentanyl thing has been so daggum nefarious, right? You know, pushing fentanyl into marijuana. Jay Kopelman: Somebody's smoking a joint and all of a sudden they're addicted to fentanyl or they die. Melissa Lavasani: I think we're having a, Jay Kopelman: it's, it's just not fair to, to say everybody in this pot is the same, or everybody in this one is the same. We have [00:46:00] to look at it differently. Joe Moore: Yeah. I like to zoom one level out and kind of talk about, um, just how hurt we are as a country, as a world really, but as a country specifically, and how many people are out of work for so many. Joe Moore: Difficult reasons and away from their families for so many kind of tragic reasons. And if we can get people back to their families and back to work, a lot of these things start to self-correct, but we have to like have those interventions where we can heal folks and, and get them back. Um, yeah. And you know, everything from trauma, uh, in childhood, you know, adulthood, combat, whatever it is. Joe Moore: Like these things can put people on the sidelines. And Jay, to your point, like you get knee surgery and all of a sudden you're, you know, two years later you're on the hunt for Fentanyl daily. You know, that's tough. It's really tough. Carl Hart does a good job talking about this kind of addiction pipeline and [00:47:00] a few others do as well. Joe Moore: But it's just, you know, kind of putting it in a moral failure bucket. It's not great. I was chatting with somebody about, um, veterans, it's like you come back and you're like, what's gonna make me feel okay right now? And it's not always alcohol. Um, like this is the first thing that made me feel okay, because there's not great treatments and there's, there's a lot of improvements in this kind of like bringing people back from the field that needs to happen. Joe Moore: In my opinion. I, it seems to be shared by a lot of people, but yeah, there's, it's, it's, IGA is gonna be great. It's gonna be really important. I really can't wait for it to be at scale appropriately, but there's a lot of other things we need to fix too, um, so that we can just, you know, not have so many people we need to, you know, spend so much money healing. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: Yeah. You ahead with that. We don't need the president to sign an executive order to automatically legalize Ibogaine. Right. But it would be nice if he would reschedule it so that [00:48:00] then then researchers could do this research on a larger scale. You know, we could, we could now get some real data that would show the efficacy. Jay Kopelman: And it could be done in a safe environment, you know? And, and so that would be, do Joe Moore: you have any kind of figures, like, like, I've been talking about this for a while, Jay. Like, does it drop the cost a lot of doing research when we deschedule things? Jay Kopelman: I, I would imagine so, because it'll drop the cost of accessing the medicines that are being researched. Jay Kopelman: Right? You, you would have buy-in from more organizations. You know, you might even have a pharma company that comes into this, you know, look at j and j with the ketamine, right? They have, they have a nasal spray version of ketamine that's doing very well. I mean, it's probably their, their biggest revenue [00:49:00] provider for them right now. Jay Kopelman: And, and so. You know, you, it would certainly help and I think, I think it would lower costs of research to have something rescheduled rather than being schedule one. You know it, people are afraid to take chances when you're talking about Schedule one Melissa Lavasani: labs or they just don't have the money to research things that are on Schedule one. Melissa Lavasani: 'cause there's so much in an incredible amount of red tape that you have to go through and, and your facility has to be a certain way and how you contain those, uh, medicines. Oh, researching has to be in a specific container and it's just very cumbersome to research schedule one drugs. So absolutely the cost would go down. Melissa Lavasani: Um, but Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Less safes. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Joe Moore: Yes. Less uh, Melissa Lavasani: right. Joe Moore: Locked. Yeah. Um, it'll be really interesting when that happens. I'm gonna hold out faith. That we can see some [00:50:00] movement here. Um, because yeah, like why make healing more expensive than it needs to be? I think like that's potentially a protectionist move. Joe Moore: Like, I'm not, I'm not here yet, but, um, look at AbbVie's, uh, acquisition of the Gilgamesh ip. Mm-hmm. Like that's a really interesting move. I think it was $1.2 billion. Mm-hmm. So they're gonna wanna protect that investment. Um, and it's likely going to be an approved medication. Like, I don't, I don't see a world in which it's not an approved medication. Joe Moore: Um, you know, I don't know a timeline, I would say Jay Kopelman: yeah. Joe Moore: Less than six years, just given how much cash they've got. But who knows, like, I haven't followed it too closely. So, and that's an I bga derivative to be clear, everybody, um mm-hmm. If you're not, um, in, in the loop on that, which is hopeful, you know? Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. But I don't know what the efficacy is gonna be with that compared to Ibogaine and then we have to talk about the kind of proprietary molecule stuff. Um, there's like a whole bunch of things that are gonna go on here, and this is one of the reasons why I'm excited about. Federal involvement [00:51:00] because we might actually be able to have some sort of centralized manufacturer, um, or at least the VA could license three or four generic manufacturers per for instance, and that way prices aren't gonna be, you know, eight grand a dose or whatever. Joe Moore: You know, it's, Jay Kopelman: well, I think it's a very exciting time in the space. You know, I, I think that there's the opportunity for innovation. There is the opportunity for collaboration. There's the opportunity for, you know, long-term healing at a very low cost. You know, that we, we have the highest healthcare cost per capita in the world right here in the us. Jay Kopelman: And, and yet we are not the number one health system in the world. So to me, that doesn't add up. So we need to figure out a way to start. Bringing costs down for a lot of people and [00:52:00] at the same time increasing, increasing outcomes. Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of possible outcome improvements here and, and you know, everything from relapse rates, like we hear often about people leaving a clinic and they go and overdose when they get home. Tragically, too common. I think there's everything from, you know, I'm Jay, I'm involved in an organization called the Psychedelics and Pain Association. Joe Moore: We look at chronic pain very seriously, and IGA is something we are really interested in. And if. We could have better, you know, research, there better outcome measures there. Um, you know, perhaps we can have less people on opioids to begin with from chronic pain conditions. Um, Jay Kopelman: yeah, I, I might be due for another Ibogaine journey then, because I deal with chronic pain from Jiujitsu, but, Joe Moore: oh gosh, let's Jay Kopelman: talk Joe Moore: later. Jay Kopelman: That's self inflicted. Some people would say take a month off, but Melissa Lavasani: yeah, Jay Kopelman: I'm [00:53:00] not, I'm not that smart. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, but you know, this, uh, yeah, this whole thing is gonna be really interesting to see how it plays out. I'm endlessly hopeful pull because I'm still here. Right. I, I've been at this for almost 10 years now, very publicly, and I think we are seeing a lot of movement. Joe Moore: It's not always what we actually wanna see, but it is movement nonetheless. You know, how many people are writing on this now than there were before? Right. You know, we, we have people in New York Times writing somewhat regularly about psychedelics and. Even international media is covering it. What do we have legalization in Australia somewhat recently for psilocybin and MDMA, Czech Republic. Joe Moore: I think Germany made some moves recently. Mm-hmm. Um, really interesting to see how this is gonna just keep shifting. Um Jay Kopelman: mm-hmm. Joe Moore: And I think there's no way that we're not gonna have prescription psychedelics in three years in the United States. It pro probably more like a [00:54:00] year and a half. I don't know. Do you, are you all taking odds? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. I mean, I think Jay Kopelman: I, I gotta check Cal sheet, see what they're saying. Melissa Lavasani: I think it's safe to say, I mean, this could even come potentially the end of this year, I think, but definitely by the end of 2027, there's gonna be at least one psychedelic that's FDA approved. Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Lavasani: If you're not counting Ketamine. Joe Moore: Right. Jay Kopelman: I, I mean, I mean it mm-hmm. It, it doesn't make sense that it. Shouldn't be or wouldn't be. Right. The, we've seen the benefits. Mm-hmm. We know what they are. It's at a very low cost, but you have to keep in mind that these things, they need to be done with the right set setting and container. Right. And, and gotta be able to provide that environment. Jay Kopelman: So, but I would, I would love, like I said, I'd love to work myself out of a job here and see this happen, not just for our veterans, [00:55:00] but for everybody. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, so Melissa, is there a way people can get involved or follow PMC or how can they support your work at PMC? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, follow us in social media. Melissa Lavasani: Um, our two biggest platforms are LinkedIn and Instagram. Um, I'm bringing my newsletter back because I'm realizing, um, you know, there is a big gap in, in kind of like the knowledge of Washington DC just in general. What's happening here, and I think, you know, part of PC's value is that we're, we are plugged into conversations that are being had, um, here in the city. Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, we do get a little insight. Um, and I think that that would really quiet a lot of, you know, the, a lot of noise that, um, exists in the, our ecosystem. If, if people just had some clarity on like, what's actually happening or happening here and what are the opportunities and, [00:56:00] um, where do we need more reinforcement? Melissa Lavasani: Um, and, and also, you know, as we're putting together public education campaign, you know. My, like, if I could get everything I wanted like that, that campaign would be this like multi-stakeholder collaborative effort, right? Where we're covering all the ground that we need to cover. We're talking to the patient groups, we're talking to traditional mental health organizations, we're talking to the medical community, we're talking to the general population. Melissa Lavasani: I think that's like another area that we, we just seem to be, um, lacking some effort in. And, you know, ultimately the veteran story's always super compelling. It pulls on your heartstrings. These are our heroes, um, of our country. Like that, that is, that is meaningful. But a lot of the veteran population is small and we need the, like a, the just.[00:57:00] Melissa Lavasani: Basic American living in middle America, um, understanding what psychedelics are so that in, in, in presenting to them the stories that they can relate to, um, because that's how you activate the public and you activate the public and you get them to see what's happening in these clinical trials, what the data's been saying, what the opportunities are with psychedelics, and then they start calling their members of Congress and saying, Hey, there is this. Melissa Lavasani: Bill sitting in Congress and why haven't you signed onto it? And that political pressure, uh, when used the right way can be really powerful. So, um, I think, you know, now we're at this really amazing moment where we have a good amount of congressional offices that are familiar enough with psychedelics that they're willing to move on it. Melissa Lavasani: Um, there's another larger group, uh, that is familiar with psychedelics and will assist and co-sponsor legislation, but there's still so many offices that we haven't been able to get to just 'cause like we don't have all the time in the world and all the manpower in the world to [00:58:00] do it. But, you know, that is one avenue is like the advocates can speak to the, the lawmakers, the experts speak to the lawmakers, and we not, we want the public engaged in this, you know, ultimately, like that's. Melissa Lavasani: Like the best form of harm reduction is having an informed public. So we are not, they're not seeing these media headlines of like, oh, this miracle cure that, um, saved my family. It's like, yes, that can happen psychedelics. I mean, person speaking personally, psychedelics did save my family. But what you miss out of that story is the incredible amount of work I put into myself and put into my mental health to this day to maintain, um, like myself, my, my own agency and like be the parent that I wanna be and be the spouse that I wanna be. Melissa Lavasani: So, um, we, we need to continue to share these stories and we need to continue to collaborate to get this message out because we're all, we're all in the same boat right now. We all want the same things. We want patients to have safe and [00:59:00] affordable access to psychedelic assisted care. Um, and, uh. We're just in the beginning here, so, um, sign up for our newsletter and we can sign up on our website and then follow us on social media. Melissa Lavasani: And, um, I anticipate more and more events, um, happening with PMC and hopefully we can scale up some of these events to be much more public facing, um, as this issue grows. So, um, I'm really excited about the future and I'm, I've been enjoying this partnership with Mission Within. Jay is such a professional and, and it really shows up when he needs to show up and, um, I look forward to more of that in the future. Joe Moore: Fantastic. And Jay, how can people follow along and support mission within Foundation? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, again, social media is gonna be a good way to do that. So we, we are also pretty heavily engaged on LinkedIn and on Instagram. Um, I do [01:00:00] share, uh, a bit of my own stuff as well. On social media. So we have social media pages for Mission within Foundation, and we have a LinkedIn page for mission within foundation. Jay Kopelman: I have my own profiles on both of those as well where people can follow along. Um, one of the other things you know that would probably help get more attention for this is if the general public was more aware of the numbers of professional athletes who are also now pursuing. I began specifically to help treat their traumatic brain injuries and the chronic traumatic encephalopathy that they've, uh, suffered as a result of their time in professional sports or even college sports. Jay Kopelman: And, you know. I people worship these athletes, and I [01:01:00] think that if more of them, like Robert Gall, were more outspoken about these treatments and the healing properties that they've provided them, that it would get even more attention. Um, I think though what Melissa said, you know, I don't wanna parrot anything she just said because she said it perfectly Right. Jay Kopelman: And I'd just be speaking to hear myself talk. Um, but being collaborative the way that we are with PMC and with Melissa is I think, the way to move the needle on this overall. And like she said, if she could get more groups involved in, in these discussions, it would, it would do wonders for us. Joe Moore: Well, thank you both so much for your hard work out there. I always appreciate it when people are showing up and doing this important, [01:02:00] sometimes boring and tedious, but nevertheless sometimes, sometimes exciting work. And um, so yeah, just thank you both and thank you both for showing up here to psychedelics today to join us and I hope we can continue to support you all in the future. Jay Kopelman: Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure being with you today and with Melissa, of course, always Melissa Lavasani: appreciate the time and space. Joe Moore: Thanks.