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Why is it so difficult for doctors to delegate, even when it so obviously impacts the team? Kiera and Dana discuss the art of delegation, and where it overlaps with clear expectations and accountability. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and I love when I get the consultants to podcast with me. And today I got the one and only Dana,   I actually have a better nickname than Danie for you. I've like upgraded. I really do think you're Dynamite Dana. And so welcome to the show. Dynamite Dana. Like you just are dynamite in so many ways, so many areas. People love you. I know people are like donuts with Dana. That one was really catchy and clever, but I think like dynamite Dana is who I'm going to stick with. So how are you today there? Dynamite Dana.   The Dental A Team (00:27) Doing good. I'm glad you found one that felt right.   The Dental A Team (00:29) I mean, I still love Dainty   so much and that will probably always forever remain. ⁓ But Dana, truly you're a dynamite consultant and I've watched you evolve and it's like, ⁓ you were on the podcast with me last time where you took a practice from negative profitability to multi profitability in just a couple of months. And I think the dynamic and dynamite ability you have so like dynamic doesn't feel as cool as dynamite, but it's because you're this dynamic player and you're able to help teams, help doctors, help offices.   The Dental A Team (00:33) You   The Dental A Team (00:58) And really it's, think like role clarity, like really focusing on top priorities. And I think that that's like the clutch piece of consulting. If I like boil down what two consultants do differently is yes, we have this like Mary Poppins bag of tricks, but I think the piece is we know which Mary Poppins tool and prioritization and piece based on the numbers, based on the goals need to happen. And I think you're very, very dynamic and dynamite and being able to do that. So excited to have you on the show today.   The Dental A Team (01:26) Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. I haven't podcast in a while with you, so it's going to be fun.   The Dental A Team (01:31) great time girl.   think our last one was talking about your transformation practice. So today's gonna be fun because I think that this is a topic you and I see often is like   doctors struggle, teams struggle to delegate and they struggle to have like role clarity and I'm even guilty of this. Like I've watched myself like it's crazy when I have these podcast topics and I'm like hi it's me I know I'm the problem I know I'm hanging on to these issues I know I'm causing this chaos and so I kind of wanted to like talk about   why doctors struggle to delegate, why we get into this like bottleneck, and then what it can look like on the other side and how we've been able to help doctors. Like, I know you've got a couple in mind. I've got a couple in mind of what does it look like when we start to trust that process? So Dana, from your perspective, why do you feel like doctors don't delegate and we like bottleneck and we hold on or like owners and founders and office managers? Like, what is that? Like we know we're bottlenecking. Like it's annoying to me. I'm like, I know I'm having a temper tantrum and I don't know how to stop it. Like I know I'm not delegating. I know I'm holding on. know I'm freaking   like failing over here. What, like, why do think this is a rift? What are your thoughts?   The Dental A Team (02:32) I   I will say I feel like Dr. Personality is like a doer, right? They're so used to like to get to become a dentist, right? You have to have succeeded thus far in life. And I do feel like that in order to kind of get where they are, they've had to kind of always do right work really hard, hit the books really hard, hit the clinic really hard. And so I do feel like it's kind of ingrained in them just as humans is that they want to do all of the things. And I also think that there's a misconception of leadership. And being a good leader means doing all   things, making all the decisions, having everyone lean on you for everything.   The Dental A Team (03:07) Yeah, I love that you say that because ⁓ there's a book that, gosh, I should look up the name of it. mean, like, I really will actually, guys. Like, if you're watching, don't worry, I'm ⁓ looking this up right now. ⁓ But it's like the founder mindset. And I think so many of us, it's the founder's mentality, how to overcome the predictable crisis of growth. And I think about this book often because like you said, it's a...   what you have always done won't get you where you need to go. And like those habits and those patterns and the different pieces, it's this, like you said, like you had to work hard in dental school. You guys, watched you. Like I worked at a dental college. ⁓ We watched you be this person. And also there's a perfectionist piece of you literally are working in such small areas. Like the mouth is so small. You have to be perfect. You can't have that. Like, I mean,   shoot, you barely move that burr wrong and you're nicking the tooth next to it and you're like, dang, and now gotta like patch this thing up. Like you really do have such a small, finite controlling area. ⁓ But I think it's ⁓ a space of, we all know, Dana, it's like, logically, I know that if I delegate and I trust my team, my life gets better. So what do you feel like it is? Like, how do people actually let go of the vine? Maybe I'm asking for coaching for myself.   The Dental A Team (04:18) Yeah, and I think some of the hold back   is they might have tried to delegate something in the past and it didn't go very well, right? Because there's an art to actually delegating and delegating that is successful and setting real clear expectations. And so I find like, well, I've tried, right? But the person it fell through the cracks or there wasn't an accountability piece built in. And so I think it's like learning truly how to delegate correctly and delegate so that pieces come back to you and you're not chasing down the thing that you   thing that you gave because if you have to chase it down, if you have to check it, like it's still on your plate then, right? That, that it still hangs over your head if you, if those pieces aren't in place. And so sometimes I think too, it's like they have had a past history of trying to delegate and it's like not failing, but feeling like, I should have just done it anyway.   The Dental A Team (05:09) Totally. And I think as you said that like, I'm into now the how of like, okay, I hear that I agree. And I, it was funny, Jason, I, call it like tub talk, like think tank talk. Like we go out hot tubbing, we don't take our phones. It's like really beautiful and shoot, it just snowed. So I can't wait to get out there and like go hot tubbing in the snow. ⁓ it's a really magical world, but we were talking about it and I realized we're using a recruiter to help hire some team members for us that I'm really excited about that are like far out of my league that I don't even know how to hire. So   ⁓ brought in some executive recruiters for that. And I remember they were asking me, they're like, Kiera, what's going to break your trust the most? And I was like, I know actually, like for me, and so team members hearing this, the number one thing, and Dana, I'm saying this because you are not this person and I'm going to highlight you, I think there's also a space when doctors delegate to make sure the person we're delegating to is right person, right seat. ⁓ For me, I've learned that the way I lose trust the most is when people tell me they're going to follow through and they don't. Like I'm very, because I just feel like,   then don't do it. I get they have best intentions, but I'm more obsessed about outcomes and you delivering rather than you just taking a million things on to make me happy. ⁓ And so I thought about it, like, who are the people that I trust implicitly, like on our team and Jason, I'm not going to like do the role of X day. And I'm that's like unfair. You'll get to hear the like behind the scenes, Jason and Kiera talk. One doctor, he was like, Kiera, if I could just be a fly on the wall to hear the conversations you and Jason have. And I was like, I don't know if you want to know them all. ⁓   But I thought about it I was like, okay, my core crew that I really do trust, like what is it and how do I delegate to these people? Like Dana, I know, and this is why I called you Dynamite Dana and Dynamic Dana is Dana, I know with out of doubt, I can give you clients and you're gonna deliver and you're not gonna let me down and you're gonna follow up, you're gonna have scorecards, you're gonna show up to the coaching calls, you're going, like I never have to come and check in on you to make sure you're delivering to clients. Now, you may need help, that doesn't mean they're not gonna be like never asking, but I know you're gonna hit those deliverables. If I give you a project like, hey, you're gonna present,   Never in my mind have I been like, uh, Hope Dana is going to show up on that. Like I know I can count on Dana to be there. She's going to follow through. If she's got questions, you're going to proactively ask me. It like, I can give you tasks that they don't come back to me. Now there's other team members where I'm like, I feel like I'm playing whack-a-mole. I'm like, uh, did you check on that? Did you check on that? Did you check on that? Like, and I've noticed my anxiety is like lit to the next level. And I think as you were saying that and office managers and team members, I hope you hear this loud and clear.   This is the fastest way to break trust and not have a doctor trust you. And truth be told, like I'm going to just call out team members, not even just doctors. You're also being the bottleneck because your doctor doesn't trust you to give it to them. Now, doctors, there is a way for us to not take it back on. ⁓ But I was just, as you said that Dana, I think that there's a big space of doctors make sure that like, if you consistently have a person who's not following through and not delivering back to you, stop trying to make that person fit. Like just call it out of what it is and say, like, listen, this has to change. And if it doesn't, I recognize you're not right person.   Like Shelbi, ⁓ she's a kick-a personality for being that. She never lets anything slip through her. mean, Dana, she is on us like sticky. It's like, hey guys, where's this at? Where's that? But she's so nice about it. And there's just certain personalities that are that way. And then there's other personalities that are like more creative and you don't need them to be in. I don't need to delegate all that. Like they can have different projects. And so I think when you look at it, make sure that the person, and you can also look at people's personality profiles. There are some that are like detail centric.   They should be your operations. should be your office managers. They should be your billers. And then you're going to have people like myself. That's a little less on details, but I'm a dang good treatment coordinator. I don't need to have as many things. I just need to hit a goal. Like it's less confined versus an office manager. So I think also like picking people that are the right people for that. Dana, I talked a lot on that. What are your thoughts on that?   The Dental A Team (08:48) No, I completely agree. I do think it takes the right person in a seat and then once you have the right person clearly defining their role because sometimes too it's like who does it who has the capacity for me to delegate this to right and I think that sometimes things get lost because we ask the person that we always ask and yes they do but then we stretch them so thin things start to fall through the cracks because we haven't said hey is this something that you really feel like you can take on so it comes down to just like you said that trust that open communication and so I think   Role clarity helps delegation. It also helps like where does it make sense? Right? I'm probably not going to ask my biller to do treatment follow-up calls, right? I might probably ask the person that's working to my schedule or the treatment coordinator herself. So I think that all of these pieces, sometimes it's hard to like link when I'm like, okay, well, let's get clear job roles. Well, how does that help me delegate? Right? I think linking all these things together can really help a doctor see how   The Dental A Team (09:39) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (09:45) easy it can become and not just for doctors like yes this is for the doctor that holds on to everything but for leads that hold on to everything for oms that hold on to everything this is just a really clear path for you to see do i have the right person in that seat is their role really really clear and who has the capacity to take on anything that comes up or something that you want to take off your plate   The Dental A Team (10:08) Totally. And Dana, as you said that something, our Dental A Team is in like such a fun transition or like we are, think Dana's feeling, our whole team's feeling it like we have gone from what Dental A Team was to what Dental A Team is becoming. And I'm super excited. We're going to roll out like a state of the company. Dana doesn't know it yet. Like it's coming. Like I can't wait. I know she's feeling the buzz around it, but I recognize as a leader that sometimes you've got to call out what was and where we're going. And   our team went through a, what I've called like a snow globe freaking shake. Like we decided like, let's just throw all the confetti, shake every person into different spots. And it's like, Britt's in a different role. I'm in a different role. Shelbi's in a different role. Thinking as like consultants, like Dana, you pretty much stayed the same, but like everywhere else around us, we just like ripped change tour and we built an accountability chart and we had to really say like, okay, what are the seats that the organization needs without names on it? What are the tasks that realistically should go under here?   And then like, let's look to see what open roles we have, who fits in what spots. And I remember we had a leadership meeting in September of last year. And who I remember, Britt was sitting at the table, Tip was at the table, I was at the table and Britt looks me across the eyes and she's like, Kiera, I just want to highlight and recognize that what you're about to go through and what I'm about to go through, Shelbi, Tiff, this whole leadership, like it is going to be a shake and it's weird. And we all actually like Dana hasn't seen it yet. You're about to get your PDF version come next week. ⁓   of our accountability chart, because right now it is that like, who does this make sense? Like I have normally gone to Shelbi because it's easy and Shelbi and I were working on like fees and different things. And I realized like, well, yes, I used to do that. Shelbi actually needs to be an EA and needs to fully be in that role. And Britt's over finance now and I need to go to Britt. So it's just like, we are constantly like pull out the legend. call it like, let's look at our big legend over here. Like who should this task be under? But I actually think that helps with delegation. And then the team actually is empowered to say like, Hey,   is this my role and not in a combative way, but like, let's make sure that instead of us just going for easy paths, we're going to the correct people. And then those roles actually have KPIs and then you got job accountability below it. So I think like, if you don't have something like that, and this is where like org chart and accountability chart, they get harped on. I recognize like operations people, they come in, they're like, marketers love to give me a growth plan. Like, cool, I hear it. It's like top to the funnel, down to the funnel. Operations people love to give me an org chart.   And what I've noticed though is if you have that clarity of who does what delegation becomes much easier and accountability holding to becomes easier because we can pull out the paper and I'll be like, Britt, it says right here online, like squint your eyes. It's right there. Or we're like, okay, here's a process. It's not on anyone's plate. Let's look to see under which seat going to your capacity thing, Dana, which seat does this make sense? And can they take the capacity today or what needs to shift so that way they can.   But also I remember Tiffanie, ⁓ she was like, you guys have never told me what my full job is. So for me to say I have capacity during hot, I don't even know what it all encompasses. And so ⁓ as I worked with offices, as I worked through our own company, I will say accountability charts and org charts need like an update like every six to 12 months. And we relook to see are there additional tasks because businesses innovate, they evolve. mean, Dana, what you were starting to do versus what you're doing today, it has evolved. Everyone evolves and   I also think like we noticed when we were going through it, we have a VA who's amazing. Everybody loves Joash on our team. Shout out to Joash. ⁓ And we happened to notice that like we needed somebody over in marketing and marketing. were going to go hire somebody and we're like, Whoa, Joash has like 75 % of his time available right now. We could actually deploy him over in marketing and make that tour. That gap can be filled. And so I think like even in consultant world Dana, like you probably are like, Hey, I actually have space. I could take on more projects if you guys need. And this is how it's a   right seat, right role delegate, but then look at all the other players and like, Dana, you got really great strengths and some areas. What if we deploy you in this? So that way your leaders are not, especially as organizations grow bigger, let's deploy and use our team players to the highest level of clear job and also capacity. I think like then accountability is not as hard because we're not inundating just two or three people, but gosh, like as I say, all this, is an evolution of practice. ⁓ Tiff, Britt, Shelbi, and I were all talking like,   It's been the core four for a long time. Like we've just done everything and we're like, we now have 17 team members having four people try to do like a one. I mean, we're not even using half of our team. And yet the co like the top leaders are drowning. It's just an evolution. And I think that this is where bottlenecks revisions having an outside person come in and see it helping you guys elevate really just paramount. And so I'd say like quick steps are get that org chart. Like Dana was saying in the accountability chart.   figure out where the gaps are and who should it go under, not name, but position, and then put names in and see where gaps are and who could we pull in to help out. Like you said, and then you get the job descriptions that are super clear. And then we start holding accountable to that job description. It's very easy when we all see it, got it, and getting the whole team bought in. I'm not going to lie. It's taken us like four months to get here to where whole team's going to see it. There's been a lot of shifting and shaking and making sure we have it right. And then letting the team know it's going to evolve.   But just giving clarity, but even for me, I now know who do I go to, who do I pass this task to? It becomes so much easier to delegate and get rid of those bottlenecks. Dana, that was so much knowledge. Like welcome to behind the scenes. You get to learn firsthand on the podcast, you're welcome. like thoughts about that as a team, as a consultant, like what do you see in that?   The Dental A Team (15:23) Thank   you   I love that and just like kudos to you here in the leadership team for just always trying to map out those pieces and I do feel like as a team member I think it's important for doctors leaders to understand like team members most team members if you have right people right seat like we talked about in the beginning most team members want to grow they want to do a really great job they don't want to let you down when you give them a task and so this is just a pathway that   Create success for everybody. You can get those things off. You can hold accountability You can do all of those things with success and your team members get to elevate themselves grow within their position grow within their skill set And so it's just like a win-win overall for everyone when it's done this way   The Dental A Team (16:15) Yeah, no. And Dana, thank you for saying that. And thank you for the reminding. I think sometimes ⁓ when you have like one bad apple or one bad experience, I think as a leader, even myself, I don't know, my brother-in-law, was a, he's like this really big wig and build like these most incredible homes and all that. And I remember when I got married to Jason 15 years ago, I was like, gosh, Jay, your brother's always so grumpy. And I'm like, I get it. Businesses can pick at you and almost like take away that naive   innocence of how much people are great and you might see the dark side of humanity in spite of the goodness that you see. And I think for me, Dana, like you saying that it's like, no, that's a good, that's a good remembering and reminder for myself of team members really do want to make your life awesome. Team members really do love you and they want to rally around you and they want to be great and they want to grow and they want to evolve. They just sometimes need to know like, what is it you want? And also empowering team members like, can't wait, Dana, we're going to show this and   I'm excited for team members to look at this and be like, Hey, like raise a hand. Like I got space. I can help in these areas. Like this is where you use collective brains to help out, but team members like falling through. ⁓ but I also think like owners don't lose faith in like the goodness of your team. And, sometimes they'll drops. It could be a wrong person, wrong seat. It also can be. There's a lot on that person and we need to like deploy or clarify to make it easier. So Dana, let's talk real life. I know you have some offices. I got some offices.   The Dental A Team (17:42) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (17:44) Let's talk about   like how, what does it look like when it's doing it well? ⁓ How does it feel for offices? Like, let's just kind of go through that.   The Dental A Team (17:52) Yeah, I think the biggest word that comes to mind when offices do this really, really well is just freeing, right? To have that trust in team, to know that you're going to give them something and that like you also have something in place that's going to show you that they are continuously doing it without having to track them down every day, without having to add it to your calendar. It just creates so much balance in a team and it just creates this freeing   sort of like innate trust amongst each other that like, yeah, we're gonna be able to keep a pulse on it. We're gonna check it for sure, right? We're going to trust and verify, but we've built in all of these pieces and getting to this point, right? It's not without a lot of work, right? And a lot of digging in together as a team and saying like, hey, we want more accountability. We want more responsibility. We want these pieces. We want the office to be successful. And I think once an office has it, it truly, truly is.   balancing, its alignment, and it's like freedom.   The Dental A Team (18:54) Mm-hmm. And I think for me, I feel often like I'll speak to the leader side. I sometimes like I'm the monkey who's got my hand in the trap holding on to the nuts so hard and trying to like get free and I can't and all I need to do is let go. And I think that there's a surrendering, there's a grace there's, ⁓ but I do also believe that teams rise to the level you believe they're capable of. And so if I'm sitting here like, they're going to let me down. We, we find what we focus on. And so.   Why don't I look to see how are they winning and what are the gaps and do we have a clear KPI where everybody knows like this is my number. I can't freaking wait Dana. I worked on it last night. I'm super jazzed. It's going to be a good time. But like even helping our consultants know like we've evolved. So what is it that like we expect our clients to be getting in the first 90 days, 180 days, 365 days like Dana, when you first started with me, I was like, good luck, go out there, do something fun.   But as we've gotten bigger and as we've evolved and we've evolved and we've attracted different clients, that needs to evolve. So what do your dental hygienists need to do? And what do your dental assistants need to do to win? And what does your front office, what does winning look like and making it so simple? So we have our top level of this is our number of accountability. This is what winning looks like. Then below that we have tasks of all the different tasks that are there. And what are the core processes? Do we have those documented and dialed in?   This is an evolution of business, but this really is like how you're able to delegate through role clarity. And like you said, Dana, there's freedom, there's alignment. Going through it, keep saying, at first I said, I feel like I'm an orange being squozed, Jason. I feel like we're trying to make oranges. And I was like, actually, I lied. feel like I'm an olive being pressed right now. We're not getting a whole squeeze out of this. It's like a drop by drop by drop. But I think if you can see the end result.   and you have a coach or a guide or someone who's been through it with you, I think it makes it so much easier. And Dana, I know you've got a client right now that you've been pushing on this. This client, I love so much. But just walk us through like a little bit of a glimpse in like, and of course, change of details so people can't figure out exactly what client it is. We'll peel back, we'll give you a couple, we'll mash them together. But like peel back how this doctor went from where they were to where they are today and what that looks like for this doctor.   The Dental A Team (21:07) Yeah, I think this is a doctor that just went through a practice transition where they took over a practice and you know, I think a lot of times when that happens, it's like you do want to be involved, you want to feel like you know every piece, you've got your hand in every piece, you're making all of the decisions. And then there comes a point in time where I usually say it's like the like six month year mark, where you realize like, crud, I can't continue to do this and not feel burnt out. So it's just been really fun to see them find the right people we   The Dental A Team (21:25) Thank you.   Yeah.   100 %   The Dental A Team (21:37) worked this entire last year on stabilizing team, finding the right people, finding good people, not rushing those decisions. And then when we realized they weren't the best people, right, making those decisions quickly too, because that can be stressful for everyone. And so it has been really fun that now that there are right people in right seats, like   being able to trust people to make decisions, being able to say, no, that's somebody like my office manager can answer that pushing team members to go to leads and something as simple as I use this as an example, they locks had to be changed at the office, right? A lock broke. And so all the locks had to be changed. And this doctor was just going through a lot personally and was out and the OM just made the decision called the locksmith, chose the locks, had them all replaced, like covered, like paid the bill all   The Dental A Team (22:12) Thank   The Dental A Team (22:26) of things. And I cannot even tell you just like how grateful how amazing it felt. ⁓ And just how it like opened the window of you know what? Yeah, when I let people make decisions when I let them do the things that I know I can trust them to do what a weight it takes off even something like that small.   The Dental A Team (22:47) That's.   The Dental A Team (22:48) And ⁓ I just remember on our call about that, it was just like a light bulb went off and it was like, the more and more I can do this, the better things are going to be. And everything worked out. Everything was fine. Was it maybe the exact lock like that he would have chosen? Maybe not. But at the end of the day, the building's secure, everything was handled and he didn't have to do it. He didn't have to come in on his day off, didn't have to do it. And it was just a really cool epiphany to see after the   last year that he's been through.   The Dental A Team (23:19) That's amazing, Dana. And I think like, as you say that it's crazy because I can coach this and then living in it. It's such a funny zone. Like I feel annoyed. Like I said before, it's like, can see that I'm throwing a temper tantrum and I don't know how to stop it, but I see it. And I think being aware of it is number one. And number two, I think it's really, ⁓ for me, at least, and again, my team listening will know I'm not perfect at this. So like, this is an evolution of Cure. And I'm not here to say like, I'm great at this today. It's an evolution. ⁓   And I think again, it's from founder, right? A founder or a new owner, like you got to do it all. You really do. And then it's like, my gosh, this got too big for me. Like I can't do it all. I'm up at two in the morning. I'm going to bed at 10 PM. Like this is not sustainable. And also for teams it's not, but I think it's this crazy piece. Like you said, what things do I really need to have an opinion on and what things can I be like, awesome, you did it. And like empower that team member and be so proud of them. And I think as we evolve, a lot of times we feel like   No, no, no, I need to be in control of everything. Like I really do. Like I need to pick the locks. Like that's out of budget versus I think if we can scale ourselves back and say like, that was actually awesome and kudos to them and train yourself to see how they did the right thing and how they did the best thing. And even if it's not your exact way, when you get a team that's running, they will actually be better than you will be on your own because you are evolving the whole, like the whole piece.   You as a leader need to set the vision. You need to say, here's where we're going. Here's the budgets, here's the parameters, and then truly trust your team. And I say that to myself, I say that to you, I say that to everybody listening, because I think it's a constant reminder until it becomes a habit and a personality. Like we're asking you to be like, okay, ⁓ I really love strawberries. And now I'm trying to get you to really love tomatoes. Like, they're both red. It's a different way of operating. It's a different method.   So we're gonna choose that. She's like, you have two wolves. You can feed the scarcity or the abundance. And which one am I feeding today? I'm gonna feed the one where I delegate, I trust, I empower. We have the pieces. But I also think Dana, like at the beginning, I do think some thought process behind like, let's get an accountability chart. Let's get job descriptions. Let's make sure everybody knows their KPI. And I think that sometimes that prep work is tricky. And then let's make sure we're really hiring the best people to do the job. Like...   I think there comes a space in business where at the beginning you hire and you gotta like grind it out. Like people don't know, we're trying to like make them into like, Hey Dana, welcome to being a consultant. Let's train it up versus like, Hey, we can hire consultants that have been consultants. Like there is an evolution. And I think at the beginning, yeah, rock on, you're going to be a lot more involved, but as you evolve, you're going to start to hire people that are just as good, if not better than you are and trust and let them run, ⁓ while still verifying and checking in.   You either choose to do that or you choose to hold and both are both are available, but it depends on what's your ultimate goal. And I think if you can focus on that, focus on the team you want and expect them to rise to that occasion. I watched it in organizations and I'm watching it in myself. Like truly it's amazing, right? People write C and clarity teams evolve and doctors feel a lot better. So any other thoughts, Dana? I know that was kind of a very fun, how you delegate, how you delegate it properly. And also like   how happy that doctor was like, shoot, I didn't even have to do that. That's incredible. What other things are they capable of as well? And kudos to that office manager for just like, I think like just taking the bull by the horns and be like, I'm going to do this and you're going to see that I'm awesome. And I'm going to win you over. think kudos to that office manager too.   The Dental A Team (26:47) Yeah, it was really fun to see.   The Dental A Team (26:49) Yeah. All right, Dana, as we wrap today, I think it's doctors teams like don't get stuck in the trap of not delegating. And just because it wasn't right before, let's look to see why wasn't it. Was it wrong person? Was it wrong path? Get your accountability charts in place. Get the map, get the rollout, get the KPIs, get the meeting cadences, like checking in with your leads every single week can really help get this cadence moving forward. You're not perfect. We're not looking for perfect, but we are looking for that evolvement. Not as much like sitting around your neck, but really empowering your team.   and rolling it out and continue to evolve that what you had before is not what you need today. And if you need a coach, mean, Dana does this, I do this, our team does this. This is what we live for is to make you and your practice like truly flourishing and thriving. So Dana, Dynamite Dana, thanks for being on the podcast today. I always appreciate it, you.   The Dental A Team (27:34) always a good time. Thanks for having me.   The Dental A Team (27:36) Of course, and for all of you listening, reach out if we can help. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on The Dental A Team Podcast.  

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Marco Bezzecchi (con la migliore simulazione) e Ai Ogura chiudono la due giorni con le RS-GP davanti alle Ducati di MM e di Bagnaia. Tutti molto vicini. Acosta miglior KTM, poi le Honda. Il punto dell'ing sui valori tecnici in campo a una settimana dal primo GP e l'analisi sulle difficoltà (inaspettate?) in casa Yamaha. Nella cronaca dei due giorni spiccano le tre cadute di Marc Marquez (senza conseguenze), le esternazioni di Quartararo e le difficoltà di Toprak. Il V4 e il talento non bastano? Infine, il mercato per il biennio 27-28 è già nel vivo: Bagnaia verso Aprilia sembra già una certezza, poi Acosta in Ducati, Martin, Alex Marquez… Faremo il punto quando mancano soltanto le conferme ufficiali.Diventa un supporter di questo podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/dopogp-motogp-moto-it--4070022/support.

Key Performance Indicators (or KPIs)! By establishing KPIs in your practice, you find ways to remove the emotion that doesn't need to be there. Tiff and Kristy explain how KPIs drive a practice — and how to implement them if you haven't started yet. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back again today and I say we again because I've got Miss Kristy here with me. You guys know how much I love her and podcasting with her is just, I told her today, like I just, you bring a sense of calm and it's great and letting it be on a, like Thursday afternoon, this is kind of cool for me ⁓ and ending my week. I've got, you know, we've got things to do tomorrow, ending calls with this is really, really cool. So Kristy, thank you so much for being here today. How are you?   The Dental A Team (00:29) Good and you?   The Dental A Team (00:31) I'm good,   thank you. ⁓ I'm... I was gonna say that, like what the heck? I'm so glad you're here though because, you know, this time last year you were here in snow and ice and I'm so glad you're here but it is cold and I heard you guys, record these, this is January right now, it'll be released in February but it's like so cold. It's like 43 degrees in the morning here and us Arizona women are just not used to that so.   The Dental A Team (00:34) It's cold for Arizona.   The Dental A Team (01:01) I agree and there's supposed to be ice and snow coming, not for us, we get rain, thank goodness, but I'm like, that's why we live here, so we don't have to deal with ice and snow. yeah, puts a little damper on travel, so we'll see. We'll see how that goes, but I am glad that you're here. This is the time of year that everybody comes and visits. February is a massive, massive time to be in Arizona. In March, we've got spring training games going, we've got...   Waste Management Open, we've got, oh my gosh, every weekend there's a taco festival or something going on. So this is the prime time to be in Arizona. If you wanna come visit, tell us that you're coming and we'll be happy to give you some suggestions. Kristy, we talk about these a lot and I'm excited because I know you actually thrive in this world a ton. You make decisions based on these. are phenomenal at projections.   four practices and the world of KPIs, which you guys, for those of you who don't know, key performance indicators, those are the indicators within your practice that tell you how you're performing. I had years and years and years ago now, like way too long to even count, I had a manager one time and she said, Tiff, I want you to start joining the KPI meetings on Thursdays with the CPA doc and I. And I said, okay. And then I ran over to my computer and I was like, Google, what is KPI? What does KPI mean? I was like, I'll be there.   That sounds great. This is like growth for me. You're putting me in. I was like, yep, I'll be there. And then I was like, what does this mean? So if you don't know what it means, you're not using them, you are not alone. I had to Google that once upon a time. And that was before Chat GPT. I feel like I would have been so much better off if I had that to break it down for me. But alas, here we are. And Kristy, I love KPIs. I love black and white decision making. I love any opportunity we have that we can remove some emotion.   from a decision, especially in the dental industry. We have a lot of emotions in the dental industry and being able to remove those and say that yes or no something is or isn't working. And my favorite piece of that is when we do that, Kristy, I think it gives us the opportunity to tackle the system and not make it personal about the person. Like it might not be that you suck.   it's that the system's not working or we're not using it correctly. And if that's the case, I'm fine. We start using it correctly or we alter it. But I think, Kristy, it makes me feel a lot better about accountability and about KPIs and just about leading teams when it's less about a feeling and a person and more about the system. So I'm excited. Kristy, tell me, why do you love KPIs?   The Dental A Team (03:41) Yeah, for the same reason, Tip, because so many times we see people focused on the wrong thing. And when you really dial into the metrics, they start to tell a story, right? And sometimes even metrics can look a little bit deceiving, but that's why I like to say the numbers start to tell a story. And then we get to dig into it and figure out the story. So, you know, just in saying that, I think if I wasn't doing what I was doing, I would be some kind of detective. And I mean,   The Dental A Team (04:09) I think   you would too.   The Dental A Team (04:10) Maybe that's why it's so exciting for me, but like, and it's truth, right? The numbers don't lie. And so a lot of times we have misperceptions on things and that's the human aspect. So to give grace on us, and I also feel like what we measure expands, it grows, right? And so if we're focused on the wrong thing, what do we get more of? And so,   The Dental A Team (04:33) Mm, true.   The Dental A Team (04:40) I just think it's the fastest way to make improvements. And it's kind of funny Tiff, because in other things we do, if we want to lift weights or we want to lose weight, what do we do? Get on the scale or we're like, we lift 50 pounds. my gosh, I added another weight. We measure it really well, but in dentistry it's like taboo. ⁓ we can't do it. Like it's so bizarre, right? But I just, again, it's the true measure. We talked about this.   The Dental A Team (05:02) I agree.   The Dental A Team (05:07) on a different podcast of winning. It truly lets us know if we're winning or losing, and maybe we'll focus on the wrong thing, right? I know you've heard it a zillion times. Doctors come on, need more new patients. I need more new patients. I need more new patients. And we look at their outstanding treatment list and it's like $3 million. And I'm like, do you really know what you mean? Right? So again, sometimes it lets us win faster because we can breathe direct and focus on   The Dental A Team (05:26) You   for sure.   The Dental A Team (05:37) what's really gonna get us there.   The Dental A Team (05:40) Yeah, I love that you said that. I love the idea of focusing on the wrong thing because I think we do that a lot. focus on the negative, right? We're like, what was our attrition rate instead of what's our new patient and our active patient count? Are those growing? Because if our new patient count and our active patient count are growing, attrition's fine. But if we're looking at attrition rate, we're like, how many are we losing? We're grasping. It's a different kind of energy and that will grow. So if you're looking at it,   you want your attrition to grow, then keep watching it. If you want your active patient count to grow, keep watching it. And if it's not growing, then you tackle the systems and assume attrition is happening. So I love that you said that because it broke it down, I hope for everyone, a little bit differently there. And our podcast today is How KPIs Drive a Practice. And I think in that simple statement and those two minutes you were just talking, you just broke it down, like verbatim on how it drives a practice because   what you focus on will grow no matter what. you're right, it's so everything in our life, we count everything. Like it's just human nature to count and track everything we do. We track our money, we track our expenses, we track our weights, we track our weight, we track everything that we do, we track our gas mileage. know, my sister's always like, ah, I got 16 gallons or whatever. I need to go get the best gas price. And I'm like, girl, I don't.   I don't know what she's like, what is your car get? I'm like, I have no idea. But there's, know, she's tracking that. But like, then we go into a dental office, it's like, don't talk numbers. Don't talk numbers. Don't track it. Because that's going to make somebody feel bad. It's like, no, we're going to track it. We're going to see that we're winning. And we're going to feel really, really good. Like my sister, sometimes she comes home and she's like, ah, I guess mileage was down. Sometimes she comes home and she's like, guess what? Simple. But that's how simple it can be.   doesn't have to be astronomical, but those small wins add up to something astronomical. And I have had so many clients that, I've had clients that have purchased practices, they're like, all right, when are we starting marketing? I'm like, well, what do you mean? You've got, like, what's your patient count? What's your active patient count? And then what's the total patient count of that practice? Because you have, every patient right now is a new patient. Starting marketing,   is a wild use of your money. Let's internal market, let's get your exams better. There's so many different avenues that we think are just the norm, so we jump on board with them. But then when we pull and extract those actual KPIs, we can find the root of what we need and the root of any problems that there might be, any systems that need to be revamped. So I love that, because that's how you're driving success, by watching the KPIs.   Kristy, and you've got, I hope everyone knows, I don't say it every time, but Kristy's done so much in her dental career and held so many titles and she's consulted for far longer than she's even been a presence here at the Dental A Team. We're so grateful for her. Kristy, in all of your experience, what do you feel are the easiest KPIs to start tracking if we're not tracking any? And then what are the most valuable KPIs maybe that people don't think of?   The Dental A Team (08:53) Ooh, that's deep. Obviously, I think we have to look at it as like two different forks in the road, right? Because so many times we hear the practice of a million dollars and then we hear the practice of six million. And I think doctors, you guys get all ramped up and think if I'm the million dollar guy, why am I the six million dollar guy? And I'm thinking, wait, wait, you don't necessarily want to be that guy. You're actually more profitable than, you know.   The Dental A Team (08:55) I I like that one.   Correct.   The Dental A Team (09:22) So it's not just what's happening in the practice, but also how profitable you are, right? And truly us here at the Dental A Team, we're looking to make sure you're hitting that profitability because that's where the true freedom is. But with that being said, the biggest KPIs out of the gate is what do I need to hit every month to be profitable? And then I measure my production, net production.   and collections. And ⁓ I am going to throw new patients in there, but in a different way, because doctors do want new patients and a lot of times they're getting them. But don't just look at how many I'm getting. Look at how many are reappointing. ⁓ you know, it's one thing that you're getting them and you might be doing limited, limited and letting them go out the back door. So again, look at those, but also   put more weight on how many are getting reappointed. And then ⁓ I also like doctors to look at diagnostics, dollars and diagnostic or sorry, acceptance dollars and percentage. ⁓ They go hand in hand. It can't just be percentage of acceptance because maybe I'm not accepting enough to even get to that goal. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (10:31) case acceptance.   Yes,   yes, I love those. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (10:46) And lastly,   probably in that tip would be your reappointment rate. How many are we reappointing? Because keep those patients of yours. Don't have to spend so many external dollars to gain more because if we just keep what we have and too often we look at how many people are sitting in our inactive pile or we don't look at it and you have a whole nother practice sitting there that you could tap into.   The Dental A Team (11:13) Yeah, I love that. I love what you said about the case acceptance dollars, the diagnostics and the case acceptance dollars. I too have doctors, I love having them ⁓ track their diagnosis and then their dollars. Number one, I hated being a treatment coordinator that had no control over how much was being diagnosed and only initially when I was treatment coordinator, were really only looking at case acceptance, which is very popular.   So case acceptance, case acceptance, and then they're like on your neck and that call these three people, why didn't these, like call the people and like I have called all the people. I can't, and we have so many clients, right, that the TC's are like I've called all the people, Tiff, can't, Kristy, I can't call anymore. Cool, it might not be in the case acceptance. Sometimes it's in the diagnosis and then to loop back to your new patient statement, all of those go so hand in hand and this is why, ⁓ heaven help me, this is why.   things like our scorecards, clients of Dental A Team that talk about the scorecard. This is why the scorecard is so important because you can look at a dental analytics screen and it's choppy, all over the place. The scorecard brings it together so that you can see what's affecting something else because to your point of the new patients, I had a practice near and dear to my heart. He hit his massive goal this year and I'm so proud of him. We worked really hard on, it was, you know,   Timelined out for five years and he hit it literally two weeks before his deadline, his date. One of the things that was holding his practice back was the new patients. He needed more new patients, needed more new patients, so his marketing company is like, all right, we're gonna ramp up new patients. And then all of a sudden we've gotten new patients, but it's like, we're not growing. There's nothing on the schedule, what's happening? And so I said, okay, what kind of new patients? And we had so many emergency, limited, transient, going through town, looking for an emergency.   He was doing a lot of same day dentistry, but not getting things booked on the schedule and not really adding to his patient count, because there wasn't reappointments happening. When we dialed that in, we found that and I was like, here's the key, switched his marketing, his new patients went up,   Then we focused in on his case acceptance. And then like you said, with the dollars, we're seeing, are they accepting fillings?   Are they accepting crowns? Are we getting the near cases? Like what is the case acceptance percentage is cool, but what are we actually, what's the procedure that's being the dollar amount and is there a ceiling maybe in our treatment planning, either back office, front office, wherever it is, is there a ceiling that our system needs to be able to help us overcome in diagnosing a certain dollar amount or treatment planning a certain dollar amount?   The Dental A Team (14:03) Yeah, I love that you say that, And as the TC, that's the one that gets me because so many doctors go back up there or come to us and say, they're just not closing it. And I always tell my practices, case acceptance is a team sport. And literally, it starts from before they even call the office. Like everything you're doing is contributing to their trust. And so ⁓ truly, docs,   I know you don't want to hear this, but it's your job to get them to yes with treatment and ⁓ financial coordinators get them to yes financially. So some of them can work heroics and they do, but it is totally a team sport. So going back to the diagnostics too, you asked a tool that I use ⁓ that maybe isn't so looked at. And I would say print your procedure count report yearly and just take a look, you know?   Are you doing four surface fillings? And I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but is it aligning with your philosophy? And are you giving patients the choice for long-term care? Because sometime that probably four surface filling is going to turn into something, you know? And let your patients decide. Let them decide.   The Dental A Team (15:18) Yeah.   Yes, I love that I have worked with many practices that they do give the options, but they assume that their patient base wants something specifically or can only afford something specifically. So they may give the options, but they kind of talk them into starting with something and started just leaving it on the table and saying what, if this were your mouth and roles were reversed, that we often say,   this were your mom, if this were your sister, if this were your brother. But I like to think, what if we were in different seats and the patient or the dentist, you were sitting in that chair, what would you want someone to tell you? Because you might even still err on the side of like, mom, when it happens, we'll fix it, but like, let's just do this patch for now, right? Because I don't, we don't want to get you numb. Like you might still err on that side for a family member, the, know, quote unquote conservative, but if you were sitting in that chair,   what would you want the dentist to say to you? And I think that makes a massive difference. And that is like your detectiveness, right? That's your detectiveness, but it works and it's what practices need sometimes. And I think, Kristy, part of those pieces, and you showed me your AR thing yesterday and how you diagnose that. And sometimes we do have to go to those spaces.   The Dental A Team (16:17) Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (16:40) because you can't see it in the other areas. like, gosh, something is here, but that's why you look at those KPIs that are gonna drive success. And then when one of them isn't working, when one of them isn't hitting the metric that you want it to, you dive deeper. You're not just going to say, okay, every month let's pull the procedure code report. You're gonna say, if case acceptance, if we're not hitting production, case acceptance isn't working or diagnosis isn't working, now we're gonna dig a little bit deeper.   I think what tends to happen is we either go surface and we're like, everything's fine and we ignore issues or we go so deep that we're in the weeds and nobody has time to see the patients. We're just pulling reports all the time.   The Dental A Team (17:20) Yeah, it's so funny. So much psychology goes into it, right? Like our doctors get so upset in dentistry. I remember like doctors thinking, well, we're the only ones that do free consults. Medical doctors don't do free consults. Why do we do it in dentistry? You know what I mean? But yet we also complain, my schooling costs so much and they don't want to pay me what I'm worth, you know? And it's like,   Almost everything, it's funny when we get into it and I work with clients, I'm like, we kind of caused it. We taught them. How many times do we answer the phone and we go, do you have insurance before we even know their name? You know? So it's funny. It's like an oxymoron in a way, but I love that you brought that up because many times we do it to ourselves.   The Dental A Team (18:10) Yeah, yeah, we just spin our wheels on something, to find it and trying to get it right in an industry where nobody's taught how to do this stuff. guys, doctors learned how to be dentists and that's it. It's a rare occasion that you come across anybody who is taught how to run a dental practice. And dental is different than medical. So even healthcare professionals, right? People who have a degree in healthcare management, it's different.   This is why we're here. This is what we do. This is this is years and years. mean, across the whole Dental A Team team, like we should count that up. That'd be a lot of years. I don't even know anymore. We've grown to so many consultants. I don't even want to try to count that right now. We'll do that later. We'll ask Josh to do that for us. But regardless, there's so much wealth of knowledge here in.   The Dental A Team (18:57) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (19:04) ensuring that and we've done such a great job at finding the solutions and the systems to at least get templates and things started to customize for practices. I think that's just an immense value that consultants like the Dental A Team bring is that space of uniformity. these are things that we've seen work. Let's start here and then let's layer on top for you and let's adjust it for your practice and your team.   and those KPIs that drive success, pretty universal. And you said, you know, the common ones, production collections, new patients, diagnosis, case acceptance, and I loved your reappointment rate for new patients and just in general, those tell you the stories. And then from there, we dig and dive deeper. So I love it, Kristy. Thank you so much. think if I were to give an action item, it would be to revamp.   your KPIs if you're digging too deep and grab some new ones if you're not going deep enough, if that makes sense. So, Kristy, anything else you'd like to add?   The Dental A Team (20:09) No, I love it. The only thing I would say, Tip, I know you have the saying down better, but use, love the numbers, right? Don't use them as sticks, is that?   The Dental A Team (20:17) Yeah.   Yes,   yes, numbers are here to guide us. They're stars to guide us. They're not sticks to beat ourselves up with. Yeah, years and years of presenting with Kiera. Awesome, well you guys, go check your KPIs, go check your scorecards. If you're a Dental A Team client, you should have a scorecard. If you don't, get after your consultant. Everyone has scorecards this year, so we're good to go. But if you don't know how to use it or if you're confused by it,   The Dental A Team (20:26) There you go. Love it. Yeah. Love it. ⁓   The Dental A Team (20:48) or if you're not a Dental A Team client yet and you want information on it, please by all means reach out. We're here to help you. We wanna make sure that everyone is successful, whether you are a one-on-one client with us, a group client, or just here as a listener, we wanna make sure that you are all successful. So reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, and you guys, we'll catch you next time. Thanks so much, thanks, Kristy.   The Dental A Team (21:08) Thank you.  

Tracy Brower, PhD, MM, MCRW is a sociologist studying community, happiness, and the future of work and life. She is VP of Workplace Insights at Steelcase and a Senior Contributor for Forbes and Fast Company. Mike Petrusky asks Tracy about her brand new book, "Critical Connections: Build Relationships and Harness the Power of Community in Work and Life", in which she delivers inspiration and pragmatic new insights on community and connection. They discuss how organizations can help to foster connections among employees, which can lead to higher levels of well-being and performance. Research shows that 50% of people globally are lonely with record levels of depression and anxiety, so Tracy believes the workplace can provide a sense of stability and identity for the workforce. Proximity and presence can increase performance and knowledge sharing among employees, and leaders should be intentional about creating cultures that support connections and community, so Mike and Tracy share some inspiration that will encourage you to be a Workplace Innovator in your organization! Connect with Tracy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracybrowerphd/ Order Tracy's new book "Critical Connections": https://tracybrower.com/9218-2/ Learn more about Steelcase: https://www.steelcase.com/ Watch the podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSkmmkVFvM4H3pwnlU2AuqynuRDpvnh4J Discover free resources and explore past interviews at: https://eptura.com/discover-more/podcasts/workplace-innovator/ Learn more about Eptura™: https://eptura.com/ Connect with Mike on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikepetrusky/  

Courage is not loud. Sometimes it is a 13-year-old girl standing in a courtroom, promising to defend dignity no matter the cost.  Noura Ghazi's life was shaped by detention, disappearance, and resistance long before she became a human rights lawyer. Growing up in Damascus with a father repeatedly imprisoned for political opposition, she chose early to confront injustice through law rather than violence. From defending political prisoners during the Syrian revolution to marrying her husband inside a prison and later founding No Photo Zone, Noura has built a life rooted in resilience, civil rights advocacy, and unwavering belief in human dignity.  Now living in France as a political refugee, she continues her work supporting families of detainees, survivors of torture, and the disappeared. Her story is not simply about survival. It is about choosing mindset over fear, purpose over despair, and love even in the shadow of loss. This conversation invites reflection on what it means to remain Unstoppable when freedom, justice, and even safety are uncertain.  Highlights:  00:07:06 – A defining childhood moment reveals how a confrontation in a Syrian courtroom shaped Noura's lifelong commitment to defending political prisoners.  00:12:51 – The unpredictable nature of Syria's exceptional courts exposes how justice without standards creates generational instability and fear.  00:17:32 – The emotional aftermath of her father's release illustrates how imprisonment reshapes entire families, not just the person detained.  00:23:47 – Noura's pursuit of human rights education demonstrates how intentional learning becomes an act of resistance in restrictive systems.  00:32:10 – The early days of the Syrian revolution clarify how violence escalates when peaceful protest is met with force.  00:37:27 – Her marriage inside a prison and the global advocacy campaign that followed reflect how personal love can fuel public courage.  00:50:59 – A candid reflection on PTSD reveals how trauma can coexist with purpose and even deepen empathy for others.  About the Guest:   Noura Ghazi's life has been shaped by a single, unwavering mission: to defend dignity, freedom, and justice in the face of dictatorship. Born in Damascus into a family deeply rooted in political resistance, she witnessed firsthand the cost of speaking out when her father was detained, tortured, and disappeared multiple times. That lived experience became her calling. Since 2004, she has defended political prisoners before Syria's Supreme Security State Court, and when the Syrian revolution began in 2011, she fully committed herself to supporting detainees and the families of the disappeared. Even after her husband, activist Bassel Khartabil Safadi, was detained, disappeared, and ultimately executed, she continued her advocacy with extraordinary resolve.  Forced into exile in 2018 after repeated threats and arrest warrants, Noura founded NoPhotoZone to provide legal aid, psychological support, and international advocacy for victims of detention, torture, enforced disappearance, and displacement across Syria, Lebanon, and Turkey. Her mission is not only to seek justice for the imprisoned and the missing, but to restore agency and hope to families living in uncertainty and trauma. Recognized globally for her courage and leadership, Noura remains committed to amplifying the voices of the silenced and ensuring that even in the darkest systems, human rights and human dignity are never forgotten.  https://nouraghazi.org/   https://nophotozone.org/   Book – Waiting by Noura Ghazi - https://www.lulu.com/shop/noura-ghazi-safadi/waiting/paperback/product-1jz2kz2j.html?page=1&pageSize=4   About the Host:  Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.  Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.  https://michaelhingson.com   https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/   https://twitter.com/mhingson   https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson   https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/  Thanks for listening!  Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page.  Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!  Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can follow the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.  Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you are enjoying the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Michael Hingson  00:09 Well, welcome everyone to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Nora Ghazi, who lives in, I believe, France right now. She was born in Syria. She'll tell us about that, and she has had an interesting life, and I would say, a life that has had lots of challenges and some treachery along the way. But we'll get to all of that, and I will leave it to her to describe most of that, but I just want to tell you all we really appreciate you being here and hope you enjoy the episode. So Nora, how are you? Noura Ghazi  00:49 Thank you, Michael, for having me in this great broadcast, doing well. Michael Hingson  00:57 Well, there you go. Well, why don't we start? I love to start this way. Why don't you tell us kind of about the early Nora, growing up and so on, where you grew up, what anything you want to talk about, regarding being a younger person and all of that and and however we want to proceed, we'll go from there. Noura Ghazi  01:17 Okay, so since I was a child, my childhood wasn't like normal, like all the kids at my age, because my father was like a leader in opposition party against the previous Syrian regime. Michael Hingson  01:34 So you were born in Syria? Noura Ghazi  01:37 Yes, I work in Damascus. I'm from Damascus, but I have some like multiple origin that I'm proud of. But yes, I'm from Damascus. So since I was five years old, my father was disappeared and because he was wanted with other, like fellows at his party and other, let's say aliens, parties of opposition against the previous regime. So he disappeared for six years, then he was detained and transferred to what was named the supreme security state court. So it was during my adultness, let's say so since I was a child like I had at that time, only one sister, which is one year younger than me, we were moving a lot. We had no place to live. So my mother used to take us each few days to stay at some, someone place, let's say so it caused to us like changing schools all, all the time, which means changing friends. So it was very weird. And at that age, okay, I I knew the words of like cause, the words of leader or dictatorship. I used to say these words, but without knowing what does it mean. Then, when my father detained, it was his ninth detention. Actually, my mother was pregnant with my brother, so my brother was born while my father was in prison. And while he was in prison, the last time he disappeared for one year, three months, he was in like a kind of isolation in security facility. Then he was referred to this court. So in one of the sessions of the trials, I had a fight with the officer who, like who was leading the patrol that bring my father and other prisoners of conscience. So at the end of this fight, I promised my father and the officer that, okay, I will grow up and become a human rights lawyer and defend political prisoners, which I did at the end. Michael Hingson  04:05 So what? What was the officer doing? He was taking people to the court. Noura Ghazi  04:12 Yes, because Okay, so there is many kind of prisons now. They became like, more familiar to like public opinion because of, like 15 years of violence in Syria. So there was, like the the central civil prison in Damascus, which we call ADRA prison, and we have said, NIA jail, military prison. So those two prisons, they were like, holding detainees in them. So they they used to bring detainees to the court in busses, like a kind of military busses, with patrol of like civil police and military police. So the officer was like. Heading the patrol that was bringing my fathers from other prison. Michael Hingson  05:05 So you, so you, what was the fight about with the officer and your father and so on? What? How? Well, yeah, what was the fight? Noura Ghazi  05:16 It's very good question, although at that time, it was a very like scary situation, but now I laughed a lot about it. Okay, so they used to to catch all the prisoners in one chain with the handcuffs. So we used to come to hug and kiss my father before entering the court. So I was doing what I used to do during the trials, or just upon the trials, and then one of the policemen, like pushed me away. So I got nervous, and my father got nervous. So the officer provoked me. He was like a kind of insulting that my father is a detainee, and he is like he's coming to this court. So I, like I replied that I'm proud of my father and his friends what they are doing. So he somehow, he threats me to detain me like my father, and at that time, I was very angry, and I curse the father Assad just in on the like in the door, at the door of the court, and there was people and and Like all the the policemen, like they were just pointing their weapon to me, and there was some moments of silence. Then they took all the detainees into the court. So at this moment, while I'm entering the court behind them, I said, I will grow up and become a human rights lawyer to defend political prisoners. Michael Hingson  07:02 What did the officers say to that? Noura Ghazi  07:06 Because they used to look to us as because we are. We were against father Assad and the dictatorship, so they used to see us, even if we are kids, as enemies. Michael Hingson  07:22 Yeah, so the officer but, but he didn't detain you. I was Noura Ghazi  07:27 only 13 years, yeah, okay, they used to to arrest the kids, but they didn't. Michael Hingson  07:37 So did the officer react to your comment? You're going to grow up to become a civil rights lawyer? Noura Ghazi  07:43 He was shocked, was he? But I don't know if he knew that I become a human yes, there at the end, yeah. Michael Hingson  07:54 And meanwhile, what did your father do or say? Noura Ghazi  07:58 He was shocked also, but he was very proud, and until now, he like every time, because I'm also like, very close to to his friends who I used to visit in prison. Then I become a human rights lawyer, and I was the youngest lawyer in Syria. I was only 22 years old when I started to practice law. So during the the revolution in Syria, which started in 2011 some of his friends were detained, and I was their lawyer also. So I'm very close to them. So until now, they remember this story and laugh about it, because no one could curse or say anything not good about father Assad or or the family, even in secret. So it's still, like, very funny, and I'm still like, stuck somehow in, like, in this career and the kind of activism I'm doing, because just I got angry of the officer 30 years ago. So at this, at that moment, I've decided what I will be in the future. I'm just doing it well. Michael Hingson  09:20 From everything I've read, it sounds like you do a good job. Noura Ghazi  09:25 I cannot say it's a job, because usually you you do a job, you get paid for your job, you go at a certain time and come back at a certain time. You do certain tasks. But for me, it's like a continuing fight, non violent fight, of course, for dignity, for freedom, for justice, right, for reveal the truth of those who were disappeared and got missing. So yes, until now, I'm doing this, so I don't have that. Are the luxury to to be paid all the time, or to be to have weekends or to work until like certain hour at night. I cannot say I'm enjoying it, but this is the reason why I'm still alive, because I have a motive to help and support other people who are victims to dictatorship and violence. Michael Hingson  10:25 So your father went into court and what happened? Noura Ghazi  10:31 He was sentenced. At the end, he was sentenced to three years in prison. And it's a funny story, another funny story, actually, because, like the other latines at that at that trial, like it was only my father and other two prisoners who sent who were sentenced to three years in prison, while other people, the minimum was seven years in Prison, until 15 years in prison. So my mother and us, we felt like we are embarrassed and shy because, okay, our father will will be released like in few months, but other prisoners will stay much longer. So it's something very embarrassing to our friends who whom their fathers got sentenced to like more. Michael Hingson  11:30 Did you ever find out why it was only three years? Noura Ghazi  11:33 We don't know because it's an exceptional court, so it's up to the judge and the judge at that time, like it's it's very similar to what is happening now and what happened after 2011 so it's a kind of continuing reality in in Syria since like 63 which was the first time my father was detained. It was in 63 just after the what they called the eighth March revolution. So my father was only 11 years old when he was detained the first time because he participated in a protest. So it's up to the judge. It's not like a real court with like the the fair trial standards. So it's it's only once you know, the judge said the sentences for each one. So two prisoners got confused. They couldn't differentiate like Which sentence to whom, so they asked like again, so he forgot, so he said them again in different way. So it's something like, very spontaneously, yeah, very just moody, not any standard. Michael Hingson  12:51 Well, so Did your father then serve the three years and was released. Or what happened? Noura Ghazi  12:58 He was released on the day that he should be released, he disappeared for few days. We didn't know what happened. Then he was released. Finally he came. We used to live with my my grandma, so I was the one who opened the door, and I saw just my father. So we we knew later that okay, he was moved again to a security facility because he refused to sign a paper that say that he will not practice any oppositional action against the authority. So he refused, yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  13:43 Well, I mean, I'm sure there's, there's a continuing story, what happened to him after that. So he came home, Noura Ghazi  13:53 he came out to my grandma. It was a big surprise, like full of joy, but full of tears as well. Michael Hingson  14:01 And you're you were 16 now, right? Noura Ghazi  14:04 I was when he was raised. I was 15, yeah, okay, yeah. And my sister was 14. My brother was two years and a half, so for him, okay, the father is this person that we visit behind bars every Monday, not this one who stay with us. So for him, it was weird. For my brother, he was very like little kid to understand. Then my father went to to see his parents as well. Then we came back to our apartment that we couldn't live more than few months because my father was detained. So at this night, everything was very, very, very new, like because before the three years he he was disappeared for six years, so there was. Nine years. We don't live with my father, so my brother used to sleep just next to my mom, actually my sister and me, but okay, we were like a teenager, so it's okay. So my brother couldn't sleep. Because why he keep, he kept asking why my father is sleeping with us while he's not with his friend at that place. And he was traumatized for many days. But usually when, like a political prisoner released, usually, like, we have a kind of two, three weeks of people visiting the family to say, Okay, it's it's good. We're happy for you that he was released. So the first two, three weeks were full of people and like, social events, etc. Then the, the real problem started. So my father studied law, but he was fired from university for security reasons at the the last year of his study, and as he was sentenced so he couldn't work, my mother used to work, and so like suddenly he started to feel that okay, He's not able to work. He's not able to fulfill the needs of his family. He's not able to spend on the family. The problems between him and my mother started. We couldn't as like my sister and me as teenagers. We couldn't really accept him. We couldn't see that. He's the same person that we used to visit in prison. He was very friendly. We used to talk about everything in life, including the very personal things that usually daughters don't speak with fathers about it. But then he became a father, which we we we weren't used to it, and he was shocked also. So I can say that this, this situation, at least on emotional and psychological level, for me, it lasted for 15 years. I couldn't accept him very well, even my my sister and and the brother and it happens to all like prisoners, political prisoners, especially who spent long time in prison. Michael Hingson  17:32 So now is your father and well, are your father and your mother still alive? Or are they around? Noura Ghazi  17:41 They are still alive. They are still in Damascus, Michael Hingson  17:44 and they're still in Damascus. Yes, how is I guess I'll just ask it now, how is Syria different today than it was in the Assad regime, Noura Ghazi  17:56 like most of Syrians, and now we should differentiate about what Syrians will talk. We're talking so like those Syrians, like the majority of Syrians, and I'm meaning here, I'm sorry, I shouldn't be very direct. Now, the Arab Sunni Syrians, most of them, they are very happy. They are calling what happened in in last eight December, that it's the deliberation of Syria, but for other minorities, like religious or ethnic minorities, of course, it's almost the same. For me, I feel that okay, we have the same dictatorship now, the same corruption, the same of like lack of freedom of expression. But the the added that we have now is that we have Islamist who control Syria. We have extremists who control Syria. They intervene even in personal freedoms. They they are like, like, they are committing crimes against minorities, like it started last March, against alawed. It started last July, against Druze. Now it is starting against Kurdish, and unfortunately, the international community turning like an attorney, like, okay. They are okay with with it, because they want, like their own interest, their own benefits. They have another crisis in the world to take care and to think about, not Syria. So the most important for the international community is to have a stable situation in Syria, to be like, like, no kind of like, no fight zone in the Middle East, and they don't care about Syrian people. And this is very frustrating for those who. Who have the same beliefs that I have. Michael Hingson  20:04 So in a lot of ways, you're saying it hasn't, hasn't really changed, and only the, only the faces and names have changed, but not the actions or the results Noura Ghazi  20:16 the faces and names, and most important, the sects, has changed. So it was very obvious for me that most of Syrians, they don't mind to be controlled by dictator. They only mind what is the sect of this dictator? Michael Hingson  20:35 Unfortunately. Well, yeah. Well, let's go back to you. So your father was released, and you had already made your decision about what you wanted to be, what how does school work over there? Did you go to a, what we would call a high school? Or how does all that work? Noura Ghazi  20:58 Yeah, high school, I was among the like the student who got the highest score in Damascus. I was the fourth one on Damascus when I finished. We call it back like Baccalaureate in Syria, which came from French. And I studied law, and I was also very, like, really hard, hard study person. So I was graduated in four years. Actually, nobody in Syria used to finish studying law in Damascus University only in four years. Like some people stayed more than 10 years because it it was very difficult, and it's different than like law college or law school or university of law, depending on the country, than other countries, because we only like study law. Theoretically, we don't have any practice because we were 1000s of students, it was the like the maximum university that include students. And I registered immediately in the Bar Association in Damascus, and I started because we have, like, a kind, it's, it's similar to stage for two years, like under the supervision of another lawyer who was my uncle at the first and then we we have to choose a topic in certain domain of flow, to write a kind of book which is like, it's similar to thesis, to apply it, to approve it, and then to have the kind of interactive examination, then we have the the final graduated. So all of them to be like a practice lawyer. It's around six years, a little bit more. So my specialist was in criminal law, and my thesis, what about what we call the the impossible crime. It was complicated topic. I have to say that in Syria at that time, I'm talking about end of of 90s, beginning of 2000 so we don't have any kind of study related to human rights. We weren't allowed even to spell this word like human rights. So then in 2005 and 2006 I started to study human rights under international laws related to human rights in Jordan. So I became like a kind of certified human rights defenders and the trainer also, Michael Hingson  23:47 okay, and so you said you started practice and you finished school when you started practice, when you were 22 Yes, okay, I'm curious what, what were things like after September 11, of course, you know, we had the terrorist attacks and so on. Did any of that affect anything over in Syria, where you lived, Noura Ghazi  24:15 of course, like, we stayed talking, watching the news for like four months, like until now we remember, like September 11. But you know, I now when I remember, it was a shock, usually for the Arab world, or Arab people like America is against the Arab world. So everything happened against it was like, this was like, let's say 2030, years ago. Everything that caused any harm to America, they celebrate it. So that. At that time, I was 19 years old, and okay, it's the first time we we hear that a person who was terrorist do like is doing this kind in in us, which is like a miracle for us. But then I started to to think, okay, they it's not an army. They are. There are civilians. Those civilians could be against the the policies of the US government. They could be like, This is not a kind of fight for freedom or for rights or for any like, really, like, fair cause. This is a terrorist action against civilians. And then we started, I'm very lucky because I'm from very educated family. So we started to think about, like, okay, bin Laden. And like, which we have a president from Qaeda now in Syria, like, you can imagine how I feel now. Like, I Okay, all the world is against al Qaeda, and they celebrated that the President in Syria is from al Qaeda. So it's, it's very it's, it's, really, it's not logical at all. But the funniest thing that happened, because, like, the name of Usama bin Laden, was keeping on every like, every one tongue. So I have my my oldest uncle. His name is Usama, and he lives in Germany for 40, more than 40 years, actually. So my brother was a child, and he started to cry, and he came to my mother and asked her, I'm afraid, is my uncle the same Usama? So we were laughing all, and we said, No, it's another Usama. This is the Usama. This is Osama bin Laden, who is like from is like a terrorist group, etc. But like this unfortunate incident started to bring to my mind some like the concept of non violence, the concept of that, okay, no civilian in any place in the world should be harmed for any reason, Because we never been told this in Syria and mostly in most of of countries like the word fight is very linked to armed fights, which I totally disagree with. Michael Hingson  27:56 Well, the when people ask me about September 11 and and so on. One of the things that I say is this wasn't a religious war. This wasn't a religious attack. This was terrorist. This was, I put it in terms of of Americans. These were thugs who decided they wanted to have their way with people. But this is not the way the Muslim the Islamic religion is there is peaceful and peace loving as as anyone, and we really need to understand that. And I realize that there are a lot of people in this country who don't really understand all about that, and they don't understand that. In reality, there's a lot of peace loving people in the Middle East, but hopefully we'll be able to educate people over time, and that's one of the reasons I tell the story that I do, because I do believe that what happened is 19 people attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and so on, and they don't represent the the typical viewpoint of most people, religious wise in the Middle East. And I can understand why a lot of people think that the United States doesn't like Arabs, and I'm not sure that that's totally true, but I can appreciate what you're saying. Noura Ghazi  29:28 Yeah, I'm talking about specific communities actually, who they are, like totally against Israel, and they believe that you us is supporting Israel. So that's that's why they have their like this like attitude towards us and or like that US is trying to invest all the resources in the in the Middle East, etc. But what you were mentioning. Is really very important, because those 19 persons, they like kind of they, they cause the very bad reputation for for Muslims, for Middle Eastern because for for for other people from other countries, other culture or other religion, they will not understand that, okay, that, as you said, they don't represent Muslims. And in all religions, we have the extremist and we have those peaceful persons who keep their their religion as a kind of direct connection with God. They respect everyone, and normally in in in Syria, most of of the population like this, but now having a terrorist as a President, I'm not able to believe how there is a lot of Syrians that support him. Mm, hmm. Because when Al Qaeda started in Syria at the beginning, under the name of japet Al Nusra, then, which with July, who is now Ahmad Al shara, was the leader, and he's the leader of the country now most of Syrians, especially the the the Sunni Syrians, were against this, like terrorist groups, because the most harm they cause is for for Sunnis in Syria, because all other minorities, they will think about every Sunni that they, He or she, like, believe and behave like those, which is totally not true. Michael Hingson  31:47 Yeah, I hear you. Well, so September 11 happened, and then eventually you started doing criminal law. And if we go forward to what 2011 with the Syrian revolution? Yeah, and so what was, what was that revolution about? Noura Ghazi  32:10 It was okay. It started as a reaction against detaining kids from school. Okay, of course, this like the Syrian people, including me, we were very affected and inspired about what was happening in Egypt and Tunisia. But okay, so the security arrested and tortured those kids in their south of Syria. So people came out in demonstration to ask for their freedom and the security attack those protesters with, like, with weapons, so couple of persons died. So then it was, it started to be like a kind of revolution, let's say, yeah, the the problem for me, for lot of people like me, that the the previous Syrian regime was very violent against protesters and the previous president, Bashar Assad, he refused to listen to to to those people, he started to, like dissipated from the reality. So this like, much violence that was against us, like, I remember during some protest, there was not like, small weapon toward us. There was a tank that bombing us as protesters, peaceful, non violent, non armed protesters. So this violence led to another violence, like a kind of reaction by those who defected from the army, etc. And here, my father used to say, when the opposition started to to carry weapon in a country that, like the majority of it, is from certain religion, this could lead to a kind of Jihadist methodology. And this is what happened. So for for people like us, which we are very little comparing of like, the other beliefs of other people like we were, we started to be against the Syrian regime, then against the jihadist groups, then against that, like a kind of international, certain International, or, let's say original intervention, like Iran and Russia. So we were fighting everywhere, and no one. No one wanted us because those like educated, secular, non violent people, they. Form a kind of danger for every one of those parties. But what happened with me is that I met my late husband during a revolution at the very early of 2011 and having the relationship with me was my own revolution. So I was living on parallel like two revolution, a personal one and the public one. And then, like he was detained just two weeks before our our wedding. He was disappeared, actually, for nine months, then he was moved to the same prison that my father was in, to the central prison in Damascus that we got married in prison by coincidence. I don't know if coincidence is the right word in this situation, but my late husband was a very well known programmer and activist. So we were he was kind of, let's say, famous, and I was a lawyer and lawyer that defend human rights defenders and political prisoners. And the husband was detained, so I used to visit him in prison and visit other prisoners that I was their lawyers. And because my like, we have this personal aspect that okay, the couple that got married in prison and that, okay, I'm activist as a lawyer, and my late husband was a well known programmer. So we created a very huge campaign, a global campaign. So we invested this campaign to like, to shed the light about detention, torture, disappearance, exceptional courts, then, like also summary execution in Syria. So then, after almost three years of visiting him regularly, he disappeared again in 2015 and in 2017 I knew that he was sentenced to death, and I knew the exact date of his execution, just in 2018 which was two days ago. It was October 5. So this is what happened then. I had to leave Syria in 2018 so I left to Lebanon. Michael Hingson  37:27 So you left Syria and went to Lebanon? Noura Ghazi  37:33 Yes, the The plan was to stay only six months in Lebanon because I was wanted and I was threatened like I lived a terrible life, really, like lot of Syrians who were activists also, but the plan was that I will stay in Lebanon for six months, then I will leave to to UK because I had A scholarship to get a master in international law. But only two months after I left to Lebanon, I decided to stay in Lebanon to establish the organization that I'm I'm leading until now, which was a project between my late husband and me. Its name is no photo zone, so it was a very big decision, but I'm not regrets. Michael Hingson  38:23 You, you practice criminal law, you practiced human rights, you visited your your fiance, as it were, and then, well, then your husband in prison and so on. Wasn't all of that pretty risky for you? Noura Ghazi  38:42 Yes, very risky. I, I lived in under like, different kind of risk. Like, okay, I have the risk that, okay, I'm, I'm doing my activism against the previous regime publicly because I also, I was co founder of the First Family or victim Association in Syria families for freedom. So we, we were, like, doing a kind of advocacy in Europe, and I used to come back to Syria, so I was under this risk, but also I was under the risk of the like, going to prison, because the way to prison and the prison itself were under bombing. It was in like a point that separate the opposition militias and the regime militias. So they were bombing each other and bombing the prison and bombing the way to prison. So for three years, and specifically for like, in, let's say, 2014 specifically, I was among, like, I was almost the only lawyer that visited the prison, and I, I didn't mind this. I faced death more than 100 time, only on the way to prison, two times the person next to me in the like transportation. It's a kind of small bus. He died and fell down on me, but I had a strong belief that I will not die, Michael Hingson  40:21 and then what? Why do you think that they never detained you or or put you in prison? Do you have any thoughts? Noura Ghazi  40:29 I had many arrests weren't against me, but each time there was something that solve it somehow. So the first couple of Earths weren't actually when, when my late husband was detained, he he made a kind of deal with them that, okay, he will give all the information, everything about his activism in return. They, they canceled the arrest warrant against me. Then literally, until now, I don't know how it was solved. Like I, I had to sleep in garden with my cats for many nights. I i spent couple of months that I cannot go to any like to family, be house or to friend house, because I will cause problem for them, my my parents, my brother and sister, and even, like my sister, ex, until like just three months before the fall of the Syrian regime, they were under like, investigation By the security, lot of harassment against them so, but I don't know, like, I'm, I'm survive for a reason that I don't really realize how, Michael Hingson  41:52 wow, it, it's, it certainly is pretty amazing. Did you ever write a book or anything about all of this, Noura Ghazi  42:02 I used to write, always the only book like, let's say, literature or emotional book. It was about love in prison. Its name is waiting. And I wrote this book in English and basil. My late husband translated it. Sorry. I wrote it in Arabic, and Basset translated it into English in prison. So it was a process of smuggling the poems in Arabic and smuggling the them in English, again out of the prison. And we published the book online just after basil disappearance in 2015 then we created the the hard copies, and I did the signature in in Beirut in, like, early 2018 but like, it's, it's online, and it's a very, like light book, let's say very romantic. It's about love in prison. I'm really keen to write again, like maybe a kind of self narrative or about the stories that I lived and i i I heard during my my journey. Unfortunately, like to write needs like this a little stable situation, but I did write many like legal or human rights book or like guides or studies, etc. Michael Hingson  43:34 Now is waiting still available online? Noura Ghazi  43:37 Yes, it's still available online. Michael Hingson  43:40 Okay? It would be great if you could, if you have a picture of the book cover, if you could send that to me, because I'd like to put that in the notes. I would appreciate it if you would, okay, for sure. But anyway, so the the company you founded, what is it called Noura Ghazi  44:02 it's a non government, a non profit organization. Its name is no photo zone. Michael Hingson  44:07 And how did you come up with that name? Noura Ghazi  44:12 It was Vasil who come up with this name, because our main focus is on prisoners of conscious and disappeared. So for him, it was that okay, those places that they put disappeared in them. They are they. There is no cameras to show the others what is happening. So we should be the the like in the place of cameras to tell the world what is happening. So that's why no photos on me, like, means that prisons or like unofficial detention centers, because they're it's an all photo zone, right? Michael Hingson  44:54 And no photo zone is is still operating today. Noura Ghazi  44:58 It's still operating. We are extending our work, although, like we have lots of financial challenges because of, like, funds issues, but for us, the main issue, we provide legal services to victims of torture, detention, disappearance and their families. So we operate in Syria, Lebanon and Turkey. We are a French woman led organization, but we have registration in Turkey and Syria, and like in seven years now, almost seven years, we could provide our services to more than 3000 families who most of them are women, and they are responsible about kids who they don't have fathers. So we defend political prisoners. We search the disappeared. We provide the legal services related to personal and civil status. We provided the services related to identification documents, because it's a very big issue in Syria. Beside we provide rehabilitation, like full rehabilitation programs for survivors of detention or torture, and also advocacy. Of course, it's a very important part of our our work, even with the lack of fund, we've decided in the team, because most of the team, or all the team, they they were themselves victims of detention, or family members of victims, even the non Syrian because we have many non Syrian member in the team. So for us, it's a cause. It's not like a work that we're doing and getting paid. So we're, we're suffering this this year with the fund issues, because there is a lot of change related to the world and Syrian issues, which affected the fund policies. So hopefully we'll be, we'll be fine next year, hopefully, and we're trying to survive with our beneficiaries this year, Michael Hingson  47:02 yeah, well, you, you started receiving, and I assume no photo zone started receiving awards, and eventually you moved out of Lebanon. Tell me more about all of that. Noura Ghazi  47:16 During my journey, I I got many international recognition or a word, including two by Amnesty International. But after almost two years, like just after covid, like the start of covid, I was thinking that I should have another residence permit in another country because, like, it became very difficult for Syrians to get a residence in Lebanon. So I I moved to Turkey, and I was between Lebanon and Turkey. Then I got a call from the French Embassy in Turkey telling me that there is a new kind of a word, which is Marianne award, or Marianne program, that initiated by the French president. And they it's for human rights defenders across the world, and they will give this award for 15 human rights defender from 15 country. And I was listening, I thought they want me to nominate someone. Then they told me that the French government are honored to choose you as a Syrian human rights defender. So it was a program for six months, so I moved to Paris with my cat and dog. Then they extended the program and to become nine months. And at the almost at the end of the program, the both of Lebanese and Turkish authorities refused to renew my residence permit, so I had to stay in France to apply for asylum and a political refugee currently. Michael Hingson  49:10 And so you're in France. Are you still in Paris? Noura Ghazi  49:13 I'm still yes in Paris. I learned French very fast, like in four months. Okay, I'm not perfect, but I learned French. Michael Hingson  49:25 So what did your dog and cat think about all that? Sorry, what did your dog and cat think about moving to France? Noura Ghazi  49:33 They are French, actually, originally, they are friends. Michael Hingson  49:36 Oh, there you go. Noura Ghazi  49:38 My, my poor dog had like he he was English educated, so we used to communicate in English. Then when I was still in Lebanon, I thought, okay, a lot of Syrians are coming to my place, and they don't speak English, so I have to teach him Arabic. Then we moved to Turkish. So I had to teach him Turkish. Then we came to. France. So now my dog understand more than four languages, Michael Hingson  50:06 good for him, and and, of course, your cat is really the boss of the whole thing, right? Noura Ghazi  50:12 Of course, she is like, the center of the universe, Michael Hingson  50:16 yeah, yeah, just ask her. She'll tell you. And she's Noura Ghazi  50:20 very white, so she is 14 years. Oh, it's old, yes. Michael Hingson  50:29 Well, I have a cat we rescued in 2015 we think she was five then. So we think that my cat is 15 going on 16. So, and she moves around and does very well. Noura Ghazi  50:46 Yeah, my cat as well. Michael Hingson  50:49 Yeah. Well, that's the way it should be. So with all the things that you've been dealing with and all the stress, have you had? Noura Ghazi  50:59 PTSD, yes, I started, of course, like it's the minimum, actually, I have PTSD and the TSD, and I started to feel, or let's say, I could know that the what is happening with me is PTSD two years ago. I before, like, couple of months before, I started to feel like something unusual in my body, in my mind. At the beginning, we thought there is a problem in the brain. Then the psychologist and psychiatrist said that it's a huge level of PTSD, which is like the minimum, and like, we should start the journey of of treatment, which is like the behavior treatment and medical treatment as well. Like, some people could stay 10 years. Some people need to go to hospital. It's not the best thing, but sometimes I feel I'm grateful that I'm having PTSD because I'm able to deal with people who are in the same situation. I could feel them, understand them, so I could help them more, because I understand and as a human rights defender and like victim of lot of kind of violations, so I'm very aware about the like, let's call it the first aid, the psychological first aid support. And this is helpful somehow. Okay, I'm suffering, but this suffering is useful for others Michael Hingson  52:47 well and clearly, you are at a point where you can talk about it, which says a lot, because you're able to deal with it well enough to be able to talk about it, which I think is probably pretty important, don't you think? Noura Ghazi  53:03 Yeah, actually, the last at the first time I talked about it very publicly in a conference in Stockholm, it was last October, and then I thought it's important to talk about it. And I'm also thinking to do something more about PTSD, especially the PTSD related to to prisons, torture, etc, this kind of violations, because sharing experience is very important. So I'm still thinking about a kind of certain way to to like, to spread my experience with PTSD, especially that I have lot of changes in in my life recently, because I got married again, and even the the good incident that people who have PTSD, even if they have, like good incident, but it cause a kind of escalation with PTSD, Michael Hingson  54:00 yeah, but you got married again, so you have somebody you can talk with. Noura Ghazi  54:06 Yes, I got married five months ago. The most important that I could fall in love again. So I met my husband in in Paris. He's a Lebanese artist who live in Paris. And yeah, I have, I have a family now, like we have now three cats and a dog and us as couple. But it's very new for me, like this kind of marriage, that a marriage which I live with a partner, because the marriage I used to is that visit the husband in prison. I'm getting used to it. Michael Hingson  54:43 And just as always, the cat runs everything, right? Yes, of course, of course. So tell me about the freedom prize in Normandy. Noura Ghazi  54:55 Oh, it was like one of the best thing I had in my life. I. Was nominated for the freedom prize, which is launched by usually they are like young people who who nominate the the nominees for this prize, but it's launched by the government of Normandy region in France and the International Institute for Human Rights and peace. So among hundreds of files and, like many kind of round of, like short listing, there was me, a Belarusian activist who is detained, and a Palestinian photographer. So like, just knowing that I was nominated among more than 700 person was a privilege for me. The winner was the Palestinian photographer, but it was the first time they invite the other nominee to the celebration, which was on the same date of like liberating Normandy region during the Second World War. So I chose, I thought for my for couple of days about what I will wear, because I need to deliver a message. So I, I I came up with an idea about a white dress with 101 names in blue. Those names are for disappeared and detainees in Syria. So like there was, there was seven persons who worked on this dress, and I had the chance to wear it and to deliver my message and to give a speech in a very important day that even like those fighters during the Second World War who are still alive, they they came from us. They came from lot of countries. I had the privilege to see them directly, to touch them, to tell them thank you, and to deliver my message in front of an audience of 4500 persons. And it's like I love this dress, and like this event was one of the best thing I had in my life. Michael Hingson  57:21 Do you have a picture of you in the dress? Yes, I would think you do. Well, if you want, we'd love to put that in the show notes as well, especially because you're honoring all those people with the names and so on. Kind of cool. Well, okay, so, so Syria, you're, you're saying, in a lot of ways, hasn't, hasn't really changed a whole lot. It's, it's still a lot of dictatorship oriented kinds of things, and they discriminate against certain sex and and so on. And that's extremely unfortunate, because I don't think that that's the impression that people have over here, Noura Ghazi  58:02 exactly I had a chance to visit Syria, a kind of exceptional visit by the French government, because, as political refugees were not allowed to visit our country of origin. And of course, like after eight years, like out of Syria after six years without seeing my family. Of course, I was very happy, but I was very traumatized, and I I came back to Paris in in July 21 and since that time, I feel I'm not the same person before going to Syria. I'm full of frustration. I feel that, okay, I just wasted 14 years of my life for nothing. But hopefully I'm I'm trying to get better because okay, I know, like much of human rights violations mean that my kind of work and activism is more needed, yeah, Michael Hingson  59:03 so you'll so you'll continue to speak out and and fight for freedom. Noura Ghazi  59:10 Yes, I continue, and I will continue fighting for freedom, for dignity, for justice, for civil rights, and also raising awareness about PTSD and how we could invest even our pain for the sake of helping others. Michael Hingson  59:29 Well, I want to tell you that it's been an honor to have you on the podcast, and I am so glad we we got a chance to talk and to do this because having met you previously, in our introductory conversation, it was very clear that there was a story that needed to be told, and I hope that a lot of people will take an interest, and that it will will allow what you do to continue to grow, if people would like to reach out to you. And and help or learn more. How do they do that? Noura Ghazi  1:00:05 We you have the the link of my website that people could connect me, because it includes my my email, my personal email, and I always reply. So I'm happy to to talk with the to contact with people, and it also include all the all my social media, Michael Hingson  1:00:23 right? What? What's the website for? No photo zone. Noura Ghazi  1:00:27 It's no photo zone.org. No photo zone.org. Michael Hingson  1:00:30 I thought it was, but I just wanted you to say it. I wanted you to say it. Noura Ghazi  1:00:35 It's included in my website. Michael Hingson  1:00:37 Yeah, I've got it all and and it will all be in the show notes, but I just thought I would get you to say no photo zone.org Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a wonderful time to have a chance to talk, and I appreciate you taking the time to, I hope, educate lots of people. So thank you very much for doing that, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching. We'd love you to give us a five star rating. Give us a review. We really appreciate ratings and reviews. So wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast, please give us a five star rating. Please review the podcast for us. We value that, and I know that Nora will will appreciate that as well. Also, if you if you know any guests, and Nora you as well, if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on the podcast, we would really appreciate it. If you would let us know you can reach me. At Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts about the podcast. So Nora, very much my I want to thank you again. This has been great. Thank you very much for being here. Noura Ghazi  1:01:56 Thank you Michael, and thank you for those who are listening, and we're still in touch.

Allen, Rosemary, and Yolanda, joined by Morten Handberg from Wind Power LAB, recap WOMA 2026 live from Melbourne. The crew discusses leading edge erosion challenges unique to Australia, the frustration operators face getting data from full service agreements, and the push for better documentation during project handovers. Plus the birds and bats management debate, why several operators said they’d choose smaller glass fiber blades over bigger carbon fiber ones, and what topics WOMA 2027 should tackle next year. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! [00:00:00] The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast brought to you by Strike Tape protecting thousands of wind turbines from lightning damage worldwide. Visit strike tape.com and now your hosts. Welcome to the Uptime Winner Energy podcast. I’m your host, Alan Hall. I’m here with Yolanda Pone, Rosemary Barnes, and the Blade Whisperer, Morton Hamburg. And we’re all in Melbourne at the Pullman on the park. We just finished up Woma 2026. Massive event. Over 200 people, two days, and a ton of knowledge. Rosemary, what did you think? Yeah, I mean it was a, a really good event. It was really nice ’cause we had event organization, um, taken care of by an external company this time. So that saved us some headaches, I think. Um. But yeah, it was, it was really good. It was different than last year, and I think next year will be different again because yeah, we don’t need to talk about the same topics every single year. But, um, yeah, I got really great [00:01:00] feedback. So that’s shows we’re doing something right? Yeah, a lot of the, the sessions were based upon feedback from Australian industry and, uh, so we did AI rotating bits, the, the drive train blades. Uh, we had a. Master class on lightning to start off. Uh, a number of discussions about BOP and electrical, BOP. All those were really good. Mm-hmm. Uh, the, the content was there, the expertise was there. We had worldwide representation. Morton, you, you talked about blades a good bit and what the Danish and Worldwide experience was. You know, talked about the American experience on Blades. That opened up a lot of discussions because I’m never really sure where Australia is in the, uh, operations side, because a lot of it is full service agreements still. But it does seem like from last year to this year. There’s more onboarding of the technical expertise internally at the operators. Martin, [00:02:00] you saw, uh, a good bit of it. This is your first time mm-hmm. At this conference. What were your impressions of the, the content and the approach, which is a little bit different than any other conference? I see an industry that really wants to learn, uh, Australia, they really want to learn how to do this. Uh, and they’re willing to listen to us, uh, whether you live in Australia, in the US or in Europe. You know, they want to lean on our experiences, but they wanna, you know, they want to take it out to their wind farms and they ga then gain their own knowledge with it, which I think is really amicable. You know, something that, you know, we should actually try and think about how we can copy that in Europe and the US. Because they, they are, they’re listening to us and they’re taking in our input, and then they try and go out. They go out and then they, they try and implement it. Um, so I think really that is something, uh, I’ve learned, you know, and, and really, um, yeah, really impressed by, from this conference. Yeah. Yolanda, you were on several panels over the, the two days. What were your impressions of the conference and what were your thoughts [00:03:00] on the Australia marketplace? I think the conference itself is very refreshing or I think we all feel that way being on the, on the circuit sometimes going on a lot of different conferences. It was really sweet to see everybody be very collaborative, as Morton was saying. Um, and it was, it was just really great about everybody. Yes, they were really willing to listen to us, but they were also really willing to share with each other, which is nice. Uh, I did hear about a few trials that we’re doing in other places. From other people, just kind of, everybody wants to learn from each other and everybody wants to, to make sure they’re in as best a spot as they can. Yeah, and the, the, probably the noisiest part of the conferences were at the coffees and the lunch. Uh, the, the collaboration was really good. A lot of noise in the hallways. Uh, just people getting together and then talking about problems, talking about solutions, trying to connect up with someone they may have seen [00:04:00]somewhere else in the part of the world that they were here. It’s a different kind of conference. And Rosemary, I know when, uh, you came up to with a suggestion like, Hey. If there’s not gonna be any sales talks, we’re not gonna sit and watch a 30 minute presentation about what you do. We’re gonna talk about solutions. That did play a a different dynamic because. It allowed people to ingest at their own rate and, and not just sit through another presentation. Yeah. It was made it more engaging, I think. Yeah, and I mean, anyway, the approach that I take for sales for my company that I think works best is not to do the hard sell. It’s to talk about smart things. Um, and if you are talking about describing a problem or a solution that somebody in the audience has that problem or solution, then they’re gonna seek you out afterwards. And so. There’s plenty of sales happening in an event like this, but you’re just not like, you know, subjecting people to sales. It’s more presenting them with the information that they need. And then I, I think also the size of the conference really [00:05:00] helps ’cause yeah, about 200 people. Any, everybody is here for the same technical kind. Content. So it’s like if you just randomly start talking to somebody while you’re waiting for a coffee or whatever, you have gonna have heaps to talk about with them, with ev every single other person there. And so I think that that’s why, yeah, there was so much talking happening and you know, we had social events, um, the first two evenings and so. Mo like I was surprised actually. So many people stayed. Most people, maybe everybody stayed for those events and so just so much talking and yeah, we did try to have quite long breaks, um, and quite a lot of them and, you know, good enough food and coffee to keep people here. And I think that that’s as important as, you know, just sitting and listening. Well, that was part of the trouble, some of the conference that you and I have been at, it’s just like six hours of sitting down listening to sort of a droning mm-hmm. Presenter trying to sell you something. Here we were. It was back and forth. A lot more panel talk with experts from around the world and then.[00:06:00] Break because you just can’t absorb all that without having a little bit of a brain rest, some coffee and just trying to get to the next session. I, I think that made it, uh, a, a, a more of a takeaway than I would say a lot of other conferences are, where there’s spender booze, and. Brochures and samples being handed out and all that. We didn’t have any of that. No vendor booze, no, uh, upfront sales going on and even into the workshop. So there was specific, uh, topics provided by people that. Provide services mostly, uh, speaking about what they do, but more on a case study, uh, side. And Rosie, you and I sat in on one that was about, uh, birds and bats, birds and bats in Australia. That one was really good. Yeah, that was great. I learned, I learned a lot. Your mind was blown, but Totally. Yeah. It is crazy how much, how much you have to manage, um, bird and wildlife deaths related to wind farms in Australia. Like compared to, I mean, ’cause you see. Dead birds all the time, right? Cars hit [00:07:00] birds, birds hit buildings, power lines kill birds, and no one cares about those birds. But if a bird is injured near a wind farm, then you know, everybody has to stop. We have to make sure that you can do a positive id. If you’re not sure, send it away for a DNA analysis. Keep the bird in a freezer for a year and make sure that it’s logged by the, you know, appropriate people. It’s, it’s really a lot. And I mean, on the one hand, like I’m a real bird lover, so I am, I’m glad that birds are being taken seriously, but on the other hand, I. I think that it is maybe a little bit over the top, like I don’t see extra birds being saved because of that level of, of watching throughout the entire life of the wind farm. It feels more like something for the pre-study and the first couple of years of operation, and then you can chill after that if everything’s under control. But I, I guess it’s quite a political issue because people do. Do worry about, about beds and bats? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I thought the output of that was more technology, a little or a little more technology. Not a lot of technology in today’s world [00:08:00] because we could definitely monitor for where birds are and where bats are and, uh, you know. Slow down the turbines or whatever we’re gonna do. Yeah. And they are doing that in, in sites where there is a problem. But, um, yeah, the sites we’re talking about with that monitoring, that’s not sites that have a big, big problem at sites that are just Yeah, a few, a few birds dying every year. Um, yeah. So it’s interesting. And some of the blade issues in Australia, or a little unique, I thought, uh, the leading edge erosion. Being a big one. Uh, I’ve seen a lot of leading edge erosion over the last couple of weeks from Australia. It is Texas Times two in some cases. And, uh, the discussion that was had about leading edge erosion, we had ETT junker from Stack Raft and, and video form all the way from Sweden, uh, talking to us live, which was really nice actually. Uh, the, the amount of knowledge that the Global Blade group. Brought to the discussion and just [00:09:00] opening up some eyes about what matters in leading edge erosion. It’s not so much the leading edge erosion in terms of a EP, although there is some a EP loss. It’s more about structural damage and if you let the structure go too far. And Martin, you’ve seen a lot of this, and I think we had a discussion about this on the podcast of, Hey, pay attention to the structural damage. Yeah, that’s where, that’s where your money is. I mean, if you go, if you get into structural damage, then your repair costs and your downtime will multiply. That is just a known fact. So it’s really about keeping it, uh, coding related because then you can, you can, you can move really fast. You can get it the blade up to speed and you won’t have the same problems. You won’t have to spend so much time rebuilding the blade. So that’s really what you need to get to. I do think that one of the things that might stand out in Australia that we’re going to learn about. Is the effect of hail, because we talked a lot about it in Europe, that, you know, what is the effect of, of hail on leading edge erosion? We’ve never really been able to nail it down, but down here I heard from an, [00:10:00] from an operator that they, they, uh, referenced mangoes this year in terms of hail size. It was, it was, it was incredible. So if you think about that hitting a leading edge, then, uh, well maybe we don’t really need to, we don’t really get to the point where, so coding related, maybe we will be structural from the beginning, but. Then at least it can be less a structural. Um, but that also means that we need to think differently in terms of leading edge, uh, protection and what kinds of solutions that are there. Maybe some of the traditional ones we have in Europe, maybe they just don’t work, want, they, they won’t work in some part of Australia. Australia is so big, so we can’t just say. Northern Territory is the same as as, uh, uh, um, yeah. Victoria or uh, or Queensland. Or Queensland or West Australia. I think that what we’re probably going to learn is that there will be different solutions fitting different parts of Australia, and that will be one of the key challenges. Um, yeah. And Blades in Australia sometimes do. Arrive without leading edge protection from the OEMs. [00:11:00] Yeah, I’m sure some of the sites that I’ve been reviewing recently that the, the asset manager swears it’s got leading edge protection and even I saw some blades on the ground and. I don’t, I don’t see any leading edge protection. I can’t feel any leading edge protection. Like maybe it’s a magical one that’s, you know, invisible and, um, yeah, it doesn’t even feel different, but I suspect that some people are getting blades that should have been protected that aren’t. Um, so why? Yeah, it’s interesting. I think before we, we rule it out. Then there are some coatings that really look like the original coating. Mm. So we, we, I know that for some of the European base that what they come out of a factory, you can’t really see the difference, but they’re multilayer coating, uh, on the blades. What you can do is that you can check your, uh, your rotor certificate sometimes will be there. You can check your, uh, your blade sheet, uh, that you get from manufacturer. If you get it. Um, if you get it, then it will, it will be there. But, um, yeah, I, I mean, it can be difficult to say, to see from the outset and there’s no [00:12:00]documentation then. Yeah, I mean. If I can’t see any leading edge erosion protection, and I don’t know if it’s there or not, I don’t think I will go so far and then start installing something on something that is essentially a new blade. I would probably still put it into operation because most LEP products that can be installed up tower. So I don’t think that that necessarily is, is something we should, shouldn’t still start doing just because we suspect there isn’t the LEP. But one thing that I think is gonna be really good is, um, you know, after the sessions and you know, I’ve been talking a lot. With my clients about, um, leading edge erosion. People are now aware that it’s coming. I think the most important thing is to plan for it. It’s not right to get to the point where you’ve got half a dozen blades with, you know, just the full leading edge, just fully missing holes through your laminate, and then your rest of your blades have all got laminate damage. That’s not the time to start thinking about it because one, it’s a lot more expensive for each repair than it would’ve been, but also. No one’s got the budget to, to get through all of that in one season. So I do really [00:13:00] like that, you know, some of the sites that have been operating for five years or so are starting to see pitting. They can start to plan that into their budget now and have a strategy for how they’re going to approach it. Um, yeah. And hopefully avoid getting over to the point where they’ve missing just the full leading edge of some of their blades. Yeah. But to Morton’s earlier point, I think it’s also important for people to stop the damage once it happens too. If, if it’s something that. You get a site or for what, whatever reason, half of your site does look like terrible and there’s holes in the blade and stuff. You need to, you need to patch it up in some sort of way and not just wait for the perfect product to come along to, to help you with that. Some of the hot topics this week were the handover. From, uh, development into production and the lack of documentation during the transfer. Uh, the discussion from Tilt was that you need to make sure it is all there, uh, because once you sign off. You probably can’t go back and get it. And [00:14:00] some of the frustration around that and the, the amount of data flow from the full service provider to the operator seemed to be a, a really hot topic. And, and, uh, we did a little, uh, surveyed a about that. Just the amount of, um, I don’t know how to describe it. I mean, it was bordering on anger maybe is a way. Describe it. Uh, that they feel that operators feel like they don’t have enough insight to run the turbines and the operations as well as they can, and that they should have more insight into what they have operating and why it is not operat. A certain way or where did the blades come from? Are there issues with those blades? Just the transparency WA was lacking. And we had Dan Meyer, who is from the States, he’s from Colorado, he was an xge person talking about contracts, uh, the turbine supply agreement and what should be in there, the full service [00:15:00] agreement, what should be in there. Those are very interesting. I thought a lot of, uh, operators are very attentive to that, just to give themselves an advantage of what you can. Put on paper to help yourself out and what you should think about. And if you have a existing wind farm from a certain OEM and you’re gonna buy another wind farm from ’em, you ought to be taking the lessons learned. And I, I thought that was a, a very important discussion. The second one was on repairs. And what you see from the field, and I know Yolanda’s been looking at a lot of repairs. Well, all of you have been looking at repairs in Australia. What’s your feeling on sort of the repairs and the quality of repairs and the amount of data that comes along with it? Are we at a place that we should be, or do we need a little more detail as to what’s happening out there? It’s one of the big challenges with the full service agreements is that, you know, if everything’s running smoothly, then repairs are getting done, but the information isn’t. Usually getting passed on. And so it’s seems fine and it seems like really good actually. Probably if you’re an [00:16:00] asset manager and everything’s just being repaired without you ever knowing about it, perfect. But then at some point when something does happen, you’ve got no history and especially like even before handover. You need to know all of the repairs that have happened for, you know, for or exchanges for any components because you know, you’re worried about, um, serial defects, for example. You need every single one. ’cause the threshold is quite high to, you know, ever reach a serial defect. So you wanna know if there were five before there was a handover. Include that in your population. Um, yeah, so that’s probably the biggest problem with repairs is that they’re just not being. Um, the reports aren’t being handed over. You know, one of the things that Jeremy Hanks from C-I-C-N-D-T, and he’s an NDT expert and has, has seen about everything was saying, is that you really need to understand what’s happening deep inside the blade, particularly for inserts or, uh, at the root, uh, even up in, with some, some Cory interactions happening or splicing that It’s hard to [00:17:00] see that hard to just take a drone inspection and go, okay, I know what’s happening. You need a little more technology in there at times, especially if you have a serial defect. Why do you have a serial defect? Do you need to be, uh, uh, scanning the, the blade a little more deeply, which hasn’t really happened too much in Australia, and I think there’s some issues I’ve seen where it may come into use. Yeah, I think it, it, it’ll be coming soon. I know some people are bringing stuff in. I’ve got emails sitting in my inbox I need to chase up, but I’m, I’m really going to, to get more into that. Yeah. And John Zalar brought up a very similar, uh, note during his presentation. Go visit your turbines. Yeah, several people said that. Um, actually Liz said that too. Love it. And, um, let’s this, yeah, you just gotta go have a look. Oh, Barend, I think said bar said it too. Go on site. Have a look at the lunchroom. If the lunch room’s tidy, then you know, win turbine’s gonna be tidy too. And I don’t know about that ’cause I’ve seen some tidy lunchroom that were associated with some, you know, uh, less well performing assets, but it’s, you know, it’s [00:18:00] a good start. What are we gonna hope for in 2027? What should we. Be talking about it. What do you think we’ll be talking about a year from now? Well, a few people, quite a few people mentioned to me that they were here, they’re new in the industry, and they heard this was the event to go to. Um, and so I, I was always asking them was it okay? ’cause we pitch it quite technical and I definitely don’t wanna reduce. How technical it is. One thing I thought of was maybe we start with a two to five minute introduction, maybe prerecorded about the, the topic, just to know, like for example, um, we had some sessions on rotating equipment. Um, I’m a Blades person. I don’t know that much about rotating equipment, so maybe, you know, we just explain this is where the pitch bearings are. They do this and you know, there’s the main bearing and it, you know, it does this and just a few minutes like that to orient people. Think that could be good. Last, uh, this year we did a, a masterclass on lightning, a half day masterclass. Maybe we change that topic every year. Maybe next year it’s blade design, [00:19:00] certification, manufacturing. Um, and then, you know, the next year, whatever, open to suggestions. I mean, in general, we’re open to suggestions, right? Like people write in and, and tell us what you’d wanna see. Um, absolutely. I think we could focus more on technologies might be an, an area like. It’s a bit, it’s a bit hard ’cause it gets salesy, but Yeah. I think one thing that could actually be interesting and that, uh, there was one guy came up with an older turbine on the LPS system. Mm. Where he wanted to look for a solution and some of the wind farms are getting older and it’s older technology. So maybe having some, uh, uh, some sessions on that. Because the older turbines, they are vastly different from what we, what we see in the majority with wind farms today. But the maintenance of those are just as important. And if you do that correctly, they’re much easier to lifetime extent than it will likely be for some of the nuance. But, you know, let. Knock on wood. Um, but, but I think that’s something that could be really interesting and really relevant for the industry and something [00:20:00] that we don’t talk enough about. Yeah. Yeah, that’s true because I, I’m working on a lot of old wind turbines now, and that has been, um, quite a challenge for me because they’re design and built in a way that’s quite different to when, you know, I was poking, designing and building, uh, wind turbine components. So that’s a good one. Other people mentioned end of life. Mm-hmm. Not just like end of life, like the life is over, but how do you decide when the life end of life is going to be? ’cause you know, like you have a planned life and then you might like to extend, but then you discover you’ve got a serial issue. Are you gonna fix it? Or you know, how are you gonna fix it? Those are all very interesting questions that, um, can occur. And then also, yeah, what to do with the. The stuff at the end of the Wind Farm lifetime, we could make a half day around those kinds of sessions. I think recycling could actually be good to, to also touch upon and, and I think, yeah, Australia is more on the front of that because of, of your high focus on, on nature and sustainability. So looking at, well, what do we do with these blades? Or what do we do with the towers of foundation once, uh, [00:21:00] once we do need to decommission them, you know, what is, what are we going to do in Australia about that? Or what is Australia going to do about that? But, you know, what can we bring to the, to the table that that can help drive that discussion? I think maybe too, helping people sort of templates for their formats on, on how to successfully shadow, monitor, maybe showing them a bit mute, more of, uh. Like cases and stuff, so to get them going a bit more. ’cause we heard a lot of people too say, oh, we’re, we’re teetering on whether we should self operate or whether we continue our FSA, but we, we we’re kind of, we don’t know what we’re doing. Yeah. In, in not those words. Right. But just providing a bit more of a guidance too. On that side, we say shadow monitoring and I think we all know what it means. If you’ve seen it done, if you haven’t seen it done before. It seems daunting. Mm-hmm. What do you mean shadow monitoring? You mean you got a crack into the SCADA system? Does that mean I’ve gotta, uh, put CMS out there? Do I do, do I have to be out [00:22:00] on site all the time? The answer that is no to all of those. But there are some fundamental things you do need to do to get to the shadow monitoring that feels good. And the easy one is if there’s drone inspections happening because your FSA, you find out who’s doing the drone inspections and you pay ’em for a second set of drone inspections, just so you have a validation of it, you can see it. Those are really inexpensive ways to shadow monitor. Uh, but I, I do think we say a lot of terms like that in Australia because we’ve seen it done elsewhere that. Doesn’t really translate. And I, if I, I’m always kind of looking at Rosemary, like, does it, this make sense? What I’m saying makes sense, Rosemary, because it’s hard to tell because so many operators are in sort of a building mode. I, I see it as. When I talked to them a few years ago, they’re completely FSA, they had really small staffs. Now the staffs are growing much larger, which makes me feel like they’re gonna transition out an FSA. Do we need to provide a little more, uh, insight into how that is done deeper. [00:23:00] Like, these are the tools you, you will need. This is the kind of people you need to have on staff. This is how you’re gonna organize it, and this is the re these are the resources that you should go after. Mm. Does that make a little si more sense? Yeah. That might be a good. Uh, idea for getting somebody who’s, you know, working for a company that is shadow monitoring overseas and bring them in and they can talk through what that, what that means exactly. And that goes back to the discussion we were having earlier today by having operators talk about how they’re running their operations. Mm. And I know the last year we tried to have everybody do that and, and they were standoffish. I get it. Because you don’t want to disclose things that your company doesn’t want out in public. And year two, it felt like there’s a little more. Openness about that. Yeah, there was a few people were quite open about, um, yeah, talking about challenges and some successes as well. I think we’ll have more successes next year ’cause we’ve got more, more things going on. But yeah, definitely would encourage any operators to think about what’s a you A case study that you could give about? Yeah, it could just be a problem that’s unsolved and I bet you’ll find people that wanna help you [00:24:00] solve that problem. Or it could be something that you struggled with and then you’re doing a better job and Yeah, I mean the. Some operators think that they’re in competition with each other and some think that they’re not really, and the answer is somewhere, somewhere in the middle. There are, you know, some at least small amounts of competition. But, you know, I just, I just really think that. We’re fighting against each other, trying to win within the wind industry. Then, you know, in 10, 20 years time, especially in Australia, there won’t be any new wind. It’ll just be wind and solar everywhere and, and the energy transition stalled because everyone knows that’s not gonna get us all the way to, you know, a hundred percent renewables. So, um, I do think that we need to, first of all, fight for wind energy to improve. The status quo is not good enough to take us through the next 20 years. So we do need to collaborate to get better. And then, yeah, I don’t know, once we’re, once we’re one, wind has won, then we can go back to fighting amongst ourselves, I guess. Is Australia that [00:25:00] laboratory? Yeah, I think I, I say it all the time. I think Australia is the perfect place because I, I do think we’re a little bit more naturally collaborative. For some reason, I don’t know why, it’s not really like a, a cultural thing, but seems to be the case in Australian wind. Um, and also our, our problems are harder than, uh, than what’s being faced elsewhere. I mean, America has some specific problems right now that are, you know, worse, but in general, operating environment is very harsh Here. We’re so spread out. Everything is so expensive. Cranes are so expensive. Repairs are so expensive. Spares spare. Yeah, spares are crazy expensive. You know, I look every now and then and do reports for people about, you know, what, what’s the average cost for and times for repairs and you know, you get an American values and it’s like, okay, well at a minimum times by five Australia and you know, so. It, there’s a lot more bang for buck. And the other thing is we just do not have enough, um, enough people, enough. Uh, we’ve got some really smart people. We need a lot more [00:26:00] people that are as smart as that. And you can’t just get that immediately. Like there has been a lot of good transfer over from related industries. A lot of people that spoke so that, you know, they used to work for thermal power plants and, um, railway, a guy that spoke to a guy had come in from railway. Um. That’s, that’s really good. But it will take some years to get them up to speed. And so in the meantime, we just need to use technology as much as we can to be able to, you know, make the people that good people that we do have, you know, make them go a lot further, um, increase what they can do. ’cause yeah, I don’t think there’s a single, um, asset owner where they couldn’t, you know, double the number of asset managers they had and, you know, ev everyone could use twice as many I think. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I think something that we really focused on this year is kind of removing the stones that are in people’s path or like helping at least like to, to say like, don’t trip over there. Don’t trip over here. And I think part of that, like, like you mentioned, is that. [00:27:00] The, the collaborative manner that everyone seemed to have and just, I think 50% of our time that we were in those rooms was just people asking questions to experts, to anybody they really wanted to. Um, and it, it just, everybody getting the same answers, which is really just a really different way to, to do things, I think. But more than, I mean, we, we we’re still. We’re still struggling with quality in Australia. That’s still a major issue on, on a lot of the components. So until we have that solved, we don’t really know how much of an influence the other factors they really have because it just overshadows everything. And yes, it will be accelerated by extreme weather conditions, but. What will, how will it work if, if the components are actually fit, uh, fit for purpose in the sense that we don’t have wrinkles in the laminates, that we don’t have, uh, bond lines that are detaching. Mm-hmm. Maybe some of it is because of, uh, mango size hails hitting the blades. Maybe it’s because of extreme temperatures. Maybe it’s [00:28:00] because of, uh, uh, yeah. At extreme topography, you know, creating, uh, wind conditions that the blades are not designed for. We don’t really know that. We don’t really know for sure. Uh, we just assume, um, Australia has some problems with, not problems, but some challenges with remoteness. We don’t, with, uh, with getting new, new spares that much is absolutely true. We can’t do anything about that. We just have to, uh, find a way to, to mitigate that. Mm-hmm. But I think we should really be focused on getting quality, uh, getting the quality in, in order. You know, one thing that’s interesting about that, um, so yeah, Australia should be focused more on quality than anybody else, but in, in, in the industry, yeah. Uh, entire world should be more focused on quality, but also Australia. Yeah. But Australia, probably more than anyone considering how hard it is to, you know, make up for poor quality here. Um. At the same time, Australia for some reason, loves to be the first one with a new technology, loves to have the biggest [00:29:00] turbine. Um, and the, the latest thing and the newest thing, and I thought it was interesting. I mean, this was operations and maintenance, um, conference, so not really talking about new designs and manufacturing too much, but at least three or four people said, uh. Uh, I would be using less carbon fiber in blades. I would not be, not be going bigger and bigger and bigger. If I was buying turbines for a new wind farm, I would have, you know, small glass blades and just more of them. So I think that that was really interesting to hear. So many people say it, and I wasn’t even one of them, even though, you know, I would definitely. Say that. I mean, you know, in terms of business, I guess it’s really good to get a lot of, a lot of big blades, but, um, because they just, people, I don’t think people understand that, that bigger blades just have dramatically more quality problems than the smaller ones. Um, were really kind of exceeded the sweet spot for the current manufacturing methods and materials. I don’t know if you would agree, but it’s, it’s. Possible, but [00:30:00] it’s, it, you know, it’s not like a blade that’s twice as long, doesn’t have twice as many defects. It probably has a hundred times as many defects. It’s just, uh, it’s really, really challenging to make those big blades, high quality, and no one is doing it all that well right now. I would, however, I got an interesting hypothetical and they’re. Congrats to her for, for putting out that out. But there was an operator that said to me at the conference, so what would you choose hypothetically? A 70 meter glass fiber blade or a 50 meter carbon fiber blade, so a blade with carbon fiber reinforcement. And I did have to think quite a while about it because there was, it was she say, longer blades, more problems, but carbon blade. Also a lot of new problems. So, so what is it? So I, I ended up saying, well, glass fiber, I would probably go for a longer glass fiber blade, even though it will have some, some different challenges. It’s easier to repair. Yeah, that’s true. So we can overcome some of the challenges that are, we can also repair carbon. We have done it in air, air, uh, aeronautics for many, many years. But wind is a different beast because we don’t have, uh, [00:31:00] perfect laboratory conditions to repair in. So that would just be a, a really extreme challenge. So that’s, that’s why I, I would have gone for carbon if, for glass fiber, if, if I, if I could in that hypothe hypothetical. Also makes more energy, the 70 meter compared to it’s a win-win situation. Well, it’s great to see all of you. Australia. I thought it was a really good conference. And thanks to all our sponsors, uh, til being the primary sponsor for this conference. Uh, we are starting to ramp up for 2027. Hopefully all of you can attend next year. And, uh, Rosie, it’s good to see you in person. Oh, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s exciting when we are actually on the same continent. Uh, it doesn’t happen very often. And Morton, it’s great to see you too, Yolanda. I see you every day pretty much. So she’s part of our team, so I, it’s great to see you out. This is actually the first time, me and Rosie, we have seen each other. We’ve, we’ve known each other for years. Yeah. Yeah. The first time we actually, uh, been, been, yeah. Within, uh, yeah. [00:32:00] Same room. Yep. And same continent. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s been awesome. And also it’s my first time meeting Yolanda in person too. So yeah, that’s our first time. And same. So thanks so much for everybody that attended, uh, woma 2026. We’ll see you at Woma 2027 and uh, check us out next week for the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast.

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When your corporate job feels "secure" until it suddenly isn't, real estate can become the Plan B that turns into your best move…  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, DoorGrow founder Jason Hull sits down with John Casmon (multifamily syndicator, host of Multifamily Insights, and co-creator of the Midwest Real Estate Networking Summit) to break down how corporate professionals can transition into multifamily investing without becoming a stressed-out landlord. They dive into how John went from corporate bankruptcies to building a multifamily portfolio, what passive investors actually need to know before putting money into a deal, and why trust + clear expectations matter just as much as the numbers.  Jason and John also unpack what this means for property managers: how to align with investor goals, why the best operators project calm control (even in chaos), where syndicators hang out, and how PMs can position themselves to win more multifamily doors.    You'll Learn (00:00) Transforming Property Management: An Introduction  (00:59) John Casmon's Entrepreneurial Journey  (02:56) Transitioning to Multifamily Investing  (04:33) Understanding Investor Types and Property Management  (05:48) The Role of Property Managers  (07:49) Investor Control vs. Trust in Management  (09:33) Challenges in Property Management  (11:17) Aligning Goals with Property Managers  (14:19) The Real Product of Property Management  (17:14) Managing Investor Expectations  (19:50) Syndication: A New Avenue for Property Managers  (23:44) Legal Considerations in Syndication  (26:41) Calmness in Chaos: The Key to Success  (31:40) Partnering with Syndications  (33:54 The Role of Property Management in Syndication  (38:29) Finding Syndicators and Building Relationships  (42:24) Understanding Passive Investment in Syndication  (47:45) Identifying Your Investment Goals  (51:54) Assessing Risk in Real Estate Investments  (55:15) Choosing the Right Market for Investment  (01:00:12) The Three C's of Raising Capital Quotables "The first C is confidence. Confidence comes from preparation." "The investment itself, we got to go out there and execute. But that investor psyche is a completely different game."  "It is not your job to hope. Your job is to analyze the information in front of you and make an informed decision." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:01) All right, five, four, three, two, one. All right, I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. And for over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses.   We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. So my guest today, I'm hanging out here with John Casman, a multifamily syndicator, host of the multifamily insights podcast and the co-creator of the Midwest real estate networking summit. And in today's episode, John's going to break down how corporate professionals can transition.   into multifamily investing, how to find the best markets, how to raise capital effectively, and what separates successful operators from everyone else. John, welcome to the DoorGrowth Show.   John Casmon (01:10) Yeah, Jason, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Love the intro, your intro, not my intro, ⁓ but excited to be here and share as much as we can on our journey to help all of your listeners reach their goals.   Jason Hull (01:22) Cool. So John, ⁓ it's great to have you. I would love for people to hear about your entrepreneurial journey. How did you get to where you are now? And then we can get into your business.   John Casmon (01:34) Well, the short answer is bankruptcy, right? I worked for a couple of different companies that went through bankruptcy and that really made me consider my other options. You know, I was at General Motors back in 2007, 2008, 2009 when we went through bankruptcy and I was there and I watched what that did to a lot of my peers. I one day in particular when we were going to have a lot of layoffs, I went to work as late as I could. But when I got there, I had a red message, a little red dial on your phone.   for anybody who's worked in corporate and remember voicemails. So I had a red dot on my phone, picked it up, pushed the play button and my heart skipped a beat because I thought maybe I was getting to the can, right? And it was actually a colleague of mine who sat kind of kitty corner in front of me and he had been let go. He, you know, was diabetic. He didn't know I was going to pay for his medication. He just was venting in his voicemail. And I just remember feeling empathy for him, but also   a sense of I just never wanted to be in that situation. So it made me really start to think about Plan B. Eventually I moved to Chicago, realized real estate was going to be that path and learned everything I could about investing. So it kind of took me down that pathway to say, you know what, I need a Plan B because no matter what you do, when you work in corporate America, you do not control your future. You know, there's politics, there's policy, there's a lot of different things involved that you do not control.   And sometimes it does just come down to someone not liking you for whatever reason, or they think you're a threat. And I didn't want to spend the rest of my career navigating those issues. So I figured I had to take more into my own hands.   Jason Hull (03:16) got it. And so you start taking things in your own hands and what was the result?   John Casmon (03:20) Yes. So we landed on multifamily investing, started with small multifamily. My first investment was a two unit building. We house hacked it, which is a common popular phrase now. But back then it wasn't quite as common. But we lived upstairs. We rented out the first floor unit and it worked great. You know, it worked so great that we went to refinance and we had created enough equity in that first investment to pull out a six figure line of credit and go out and buy another property. So.   Jason Hull (03:45) Nice.   John Casmon (03:47) That really got the ball rolling. bought a three unit building, we bought an eight unit building, and at this time I'm still working in advertising, still working in corporate America, and I enjoyed what I was doing, and I just had my second child, but the agency I was working for also went through bankruptcy right at this time. We had expanded, we were growing, and we had kind of combined with a few other agencies and kind of became this little conglomerate, and it just eroded just as quickly as it grew.   I remember again, just sitting there and I've got some real estate. I've got a little bit of cashflow, but not enough to pay all my bills. New baby. And I just realized this real estate thing is working, but the exact strategy I'm employing doesn't allow me to insulate myself from these economic changes and shifts. So I had to change my strategy and that led me to syndication. Since then, we've acquired over $150 million worth of apartments.   We've partnered with busy professionals to buy these properties and give them some passive income. And that's what we've been doing ever since.   Jason Hull (04:50) Got it. So your area of genius really is helping these people that were similar to you, they're in the corporate environment transition into being an investor in real estate.   John Casmon (05:01) Yeah, exactly. And I would say too, it doesn't have to be you're going to quit your job and do this full time. And in fact, most people don't, you know, but most people do want a little bit more control over their life. You want a little bit more flexibility. You want to earn and start building up, you know, your net worth. You want to have a little bit more liquidity. You have to look at your investments to say, what should you be doing? I think most people know that their 401k, their, you know, company issued life insurance.   probably not enough to really get you on the fast track to retirement. So what else could you do? Certainly you can invest in the stock market. Lots of folks do that. But real estate is a proven vehicle. The challenge is, I don't know anyone who really wants to be a landlord, right? ⁓ Certainly you want the benefits of real estate investing, but very few of us want to get those 2 a.m. phone calls. So the shortcut there is, ⁓ hire a property manager. Great solution. But now you have to be able to manage   property managers, right, which is this whole other business. And if you don't have enough scale, then it's hard to get that person really focused on your business. So we offer an alternative, right? You get all the benefits of real estate investing, all the ownership perks without any of the headaches of being the landlord yourself. So it really is a great marriage of being in real estate without having to do the heavy lifting yourself.   Jason Hull (06:15) Okay.   Okay, so ⁓ the target audience of this show are property managers. So if they're not gonna use property managers, then what's the alternative? How does this work?   John Casmon (06:29) Well,   first of all, what we do is not always for that individual. So I think that's the key, right? You've got to understand who you are from a psychological standpoint. So when it comes to investors, there's two types of investors. One wants control, right? They're not willing to be passive. And some people think they want to be passive until they're in a passive situation and then they're calling and they want to know why you did this and why you did that and how come you did do that. That's not a passive investor. And that's fun.   Jason Hull (06:45) Yeah.   Yeah, they're anxious. Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (06:58) And   if that's you, you should be active, right? And you should work with a property manager, but you also want to work with the property manager who is going to be right for you, right? Because sometimes that is not how they operate. So you want to understand that. And that's a process to understand who you are as an investor, what kind of investment strategy fits you and what's going to be right there. When it comes to property managers, though, I think there are a couple of things. And as a matter of fact, we just left out of meeting with   property management company yesterday. They have 2000 units. We talked about some other services that we offer. And one of things that stood out to me was just understanding some of the challenges that property managers face. And one of them is property managers are really in a position to think like everyone. They're supposed to think like an investor. They're supposed to understand maintenance and kind of the construction arm enough to understand what needs to happen at a property. But they are really little CEOs, right? Because for   Our stuff, the large apartment stuff, those are typically million dollar annual revenue businesses. And this person is in charge of that asset of that business. They are making the day to day decisions. They are the face for the residents, aka the customers of that business. They are the face and their experience with that individual is how they view that business. So it really is an important role. And if you're working with property managers, it's really important to understand how to find the right people.   to connect with them and have them represent your business, your brand, company in the right light.   Jason Hull (08:30) So now you left an open loop that I want to close. So you said there's two types of investors, those that want control and maybe should go find a property manager, you said. And then what's the other type?   John Casmon (08:34) Yeah.   The other type is those who don't want control and they trust someone else to handle that. And for them, there are a couple of different ways of investing. One is investing passively with a group like ours. The other is turnkey investing where again, you hire a property manager, but you really entrust them to manage the property. The only thing I would say for either one of those groups, myself included, is you want to trust but verify. Okay. You've got to do a lot of your due diligence upfront. You want to understand how they operate. You want to talk to   some of their other clients, some of their other investors, because you need to get a really good sense of what to expect. And a lot of people are great at selling themselves upfront, right? I can tell you everything you want to hear upfront. You want to know what is it like once you sign the paperwork? How often are we going to talk? How frequently am I going to get updates? And at what point am I able to weigh in and make decisions? Because if, if you are someone who wants to be more active or be heard, or you've got thoughts and opinions,   Jason Hull (09:18) yeah.   John Casmon (09:35) You want to make sure you have a voice in your investment. Otherwise you may get really disappointed or you may bring on someone who has a different perspective of what that relationship looks like and that never is going to work out.   Jason Hull (09:47) Yeah, there's a big challenge in the industry and that's that most property management companies suck. so most investors that have dealt with property management to some degree are they have some scar tissue, they've been burned a little bit. They've a lot of property managers that started their businesses that come to me for help to grow their business. They started because they were investor and they couldn't find anyone else to manage the property good enough. And that's why they started their business, but it can be a difficult business to run. so none of them start their business saying, I want to suck.   But that's kind of the default unless they get some really good support or figure some things out through a lot of trial and error. And so that's where DoorGrow comes in. We help them with that. But one of the things I coach my clients on a lot is that they need to shift into being daddy over these rental properties. They need to like tell the owner, hey, you need to trust me. And they need to be able to have a really effective business so that they can lean into that trust.   because a lot of people are anxious. They'll come to them with concerns, but generally if a property manager is good, they're much better at this investing stuff than most investors. And they're much better at coordinating maintenance. They're much better at handling leasing. And so when an owner tries to micromanage a property manager, it kind of doesn't make sense to hire somebody to manage your asset just so you can manage them to do the job. And so I think the secret is finding a really good property manager that you can   let go of control because you can trust them. And but yes, you need to verify that they can do the job that you need them to do. And so a good property manager will take ownership of it and they'll take control and they will, they'll display a lot of certainty and confidence in how they communicate and they won't allow you to micromanage them is what I've seen. So.   John Casmon (11:37) Yeah, Jason, and I'll add to it. There's a two way street there. And I think it's easy for people to say, ⁓ most property managers suck or they're not good or whatever. And listen, there's certainly a lot of challenges there. A lot of folks who are not living up to par to the standards. But I will go back to this. We ask property managers to do the work of generally like a CEO. Right. I mean, again, they're managing million dollar businesses in many cases, yet they don't have that training. They don't have that experience. They don't have the ability to navigate.   all of these various things. So part of what owners and investors need to also understand is that you play the role of asset manager. And that means giving clear direction of what success looks like so that that property manager has a framework to make decisions. It's not to micromanage those decisions, but to help them understand how their decisions impact the greater good. And part of that is like, again, just sitting down with annual goals. What are revenue goals? What are our goals on?   Occupancy, what are our goals on in a lot? And this may seem simple, but I promise you a lot of folks don't do this. And if you don't do that, then that property manager is going to default to, for instance, I'll give you a great example. I've got a property manager. She's awesome rock star. But she always gets nervous when occupancy is not at like 96 or 97 percent of this property. So she is, you she starts apologizing profusely and all I did this or done that and like.   Jason Hull (12:58) Yeah.   John Casmon (13:04) Occupancy is one of our KPIs for sure. It's important, but that is not the KPI. I am focused on my net operating income. And if we're going to push rents, the impact of that is you're going to have higher vacancy and she is not comfortable with that. And that's probably because she's used to working with owners who want that thing fully rented and they are comfortable having 100 % occupancy.   Jason Hull (13:13) Yeah.   Hmm.   Yeah.   John Casmon (13:33) if they're leaving 50 bucks, 75 bucks, whatever it is of rent on the table. And that's the part where you've got to really align with your vision versus their vision, because what they have in the back of their mind may not completely align with what you have. Or they have residents in their face who are coming into the office. They want something fixed. They want it done quickly. They want it done right. They want it done yesterday.   Jason Hull (13:49) Right.   .   John Casmon (13:59) So they've got that pressure of this person in their face. So they may go out there and spend the money or authorize the money to get spent. And maybe they're not picking the most cost effective measure. So you have that. And I'll give you one third one. A lot of times when you run into the flip side of that is maybe occupancy is low. They say, hey, we need to increase our marketing spend, right? We got to increase our marketing budget. know, ox is down to 88 or 90%. We got to spend more money. And we're not necessarily.   really zeroing in on what the specific issue or challenge is at that property. So for an owner, your job as an asset manager is to partner with them and to help them see what the options are, help them work through with some of those challenges and solutions are and partner with them to find success. It's not to micromanage them and tell them what to do, but it's really to understand the situation better and give them that perspective.   Jason Hull (14:49) Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. think, you know, one of the things I've seen is that I've noticed a lot of property managers, they make the mistake of thinking that the goal or the product that people want to buy from them is property management. But investors don't wake up in the morning and go, man, I'm so excited to get property management today. The thing that they want. And so the way I describe it to them as they say, property management is like the flight to Hawaii. It's not Hawaii.   and you're trying to sell the flight. That's not the exciting part. You need to figure out what the investor wants, what their goal is. Where do they want to go? What's Hawaii for them, right? What's paradise? And then how do we optimize for that? And how do we help them create a path for that? Because the actual product that a property manager is selling is not what they do. It's not property management. The actual product is them. It's them and their values and their belief system and how they create trust and the team they build and the system and mechanism they build around them.   That's the actual product the property manager is selling. so a lot of property managers make that mistake. They sit there and talk to you about maintenance coordination and leasing and inspections. And meanwhile, you're just wondering as an investor, can I even trust this person? Like do our values align? Yeah. So I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but.   John Casmon (16:11) I think you're spot on, right? Because, I mean, ultimately, as an investor, you are only as good as the team you can build. And that property manager is in charge of the day-to-day aspects of the business. especially when you, you know, I've heard horror stories of folks who have done like turnkey investing, right? Where the property manager, someone owns it, they buy it, they fix it up, and then they rent it back to...   an investor. And I've heard horror stories where that property was not being well managed. And that's the fear. If you're not in that marketing, you can't come and see it. So if you got an out of town investor, you really are trusting that property manager. So that is the most important thing, right? Everything else are tactical, daily situational things that can change. But it comes down to do I have the right people, people that I can trust, people who are going to make the right decision based on the information they have.   because they may not know what I know or maybe something shifted and changed where they would have made a different decision. We can't, you know, ache on that. It really comes down to are they doing their best? Are they making good decisions? If they're not making good decisions, is it because they didn't have the correct information, which again, could fall back on you as the investor to say, hey, are they aware of what your goals are? Are they aware of maybe this situation, these tools, these resources, whatever it is? And that's on you to sit and collaborate.   But trust is absolutely paramount because at end of the day, the thing that I think most of us are concerned with is who we partner with. And there's a great book I'm reading right now. And it gets into decision making and the fear of decision making for most of us and why deals stall. Why didn't you hire somebody? Why didn't you, you know, go with the vendor or go with the contractor or with the company? And the biggest thing is we are scared of making the wrong choice. All of us in decision and no action.   Jason Hull (17:43) Absolutely.   John Casmon (18:04) is better than the wrong action for many people because they once they take action. Well, now they're blaming themselves because you didn't pick the right person. Why did you hire that guy? You should have like now this starts to go on in their head versus doing nothing. Well, at least it's you know, it's not going to get worse, you know, it will in lot of cases get worse. So for a lot of people, that is the scariest thing. So if you can take that fear off the table as far as being the right person or being someone who is trustworthy.   Jason Hull (18:07) Right, yeah.   John Casmon (18:32) everything else gets easier. So if you can do that, that's, you know, the best thing you can do as an investor or as a property manager.   Jason Hull (18:38) Yeah, I agree. think one of things that I talk about a lot is that clarity has to come before action because if you don't have clarity and you start taking a bunch of action, doing stuff, every action you take is a little bit wrong. Sometimes it's a lot wrong. so, yeah, we need to get that clarity first before we start ⁓ making moves. And you talked about, I love the example of your property manager that is trying to   optimize maybe for the wrong thing. They're like, want to optimize to the, making sure their vacancy is super low. But that might not be the goal. That's not the primary goal. The goal is money, you know, and there's a really good book is by Elihu Goldratt. It's a good book for operations people, but it's called The Goal. And spoiler alert, the guy's trying to figure out the goal through this whole book, the story and it's money. That's the secret. The goal is the of the business, should be making making money.   And what happens in this book is that people are over optimizing individual pieces in this flow at this warehouse. And it's actually not helping to make money. It's causing more constraint. And so if we over optimize at one stage, it actually creates waste, bloat, inventory, additional work for the next stage. And so sometimes the best thing certain departments can do is slow down and do less in order to get the outcome to be maximized outcome.   And there's some really great examples in that that I think are really powerful. But I think the if you're optimizing for the wrong thing, then you're not making it effective. So you want to make sure you're optimizing for the right thing. Otherwise. ensues. You get mad at somebody, but nobody understood what the goal was. And so I think, yeah, getting a greed upon set of criteria of what what the outcome is and asking the property manager, can you help me achieve this?   And they know, they know if they know what the problem is, usually they can, they know how to help you get whatever goal that you have. And they know whether your goal is probably realistic or not, because they've helped probably a lot of people do this similarly. And so, but yeah, I think it's very important. Make sure you know, where's Hawaii and maybe property management is the vehicle. Now you had mentioned like, I'm really curious about this idea of, you know, maybe creating syndications.   Some property managers are now starting to think, maybe I should create a syndication. What's your criteria for, what's a good syndication and what are some of the, I'd be really curious to get into if some of the property managers listening were wanting to do kind of a little bit of what you do, how they might be able to get started in that. Like what are the beginning steps to make sure they don't make the mistakes you probably already figured out in the beginning?   John Casmon (21:27) Well, I think the first thing is, you really want to get into it? Right. Because for a lot of people, you got to understand it's a different business. Now you're not talking about real estate investing. You're not talking about property management. You're really talking more about, you know, investment management. You're talking about bringing on private investors who are looking for a return. That is communication skills. That's building up a network and a database of   Jason Hull (21:35) Mm-hmm.   Right, returns.   John Casmon (21:54) prospective investors, it's understanding the return projections that they're looking for. And it's really kind of managing the investor expectations, not necessarily the investment. And to give you a great example here, I had a deal where the investment went great, but it was slightly lower than what we initially projected. And I had an investor who was upset.   Jason Hull (22:07) Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (22:23) about that. And we had communicated all throughout the entire process where things sat and he wasn't too upset, but he still made it a point to let me know, hey, well, this is less than what you initially thought. And that's challenging because the market shifts, right? Anybody who's bought properties in 2022 and beyond knows the market has shifted drastically over the last three or four years. So those projections made in a 2021-22 environment   Have a hard time standing up in a 25 26 environment We still make good money on that deals double-digit returns for investors ⁓ But you know there was that that was that feedback I got from one of the investors conversely We just exited deal a couple months ago, and we completely exceeded our return projections You know we delivered on a almost a 2.7 equity multiple Hit all you know mid 20s on the IRR completely unheard of stuff in this environment   And I have one investor call me and say, hey, John, I just checked my account. Is this right? And I'm like, yeah, it's it's right, man. He's like, my gosh, you guys killed it, man. my. Like, this is amazing. And it's great to hear. But again, that is separate from the investment. Right. Happy to manage the investor expectations and concerns. But that was an up and down investment where we had, you know, a moment where we actually had to put some of our general partner capital into the deal to keep it going.   Jason Hull (23:27) Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (23:48) We have floating rate debt. had to refinance out of that. And we had to kind of rush to do that before rates started to go crazy. We had moments where our construction or renovation costs were much higher than we anticipated. So there are a lot of things that we had to navigate. And I think what happens for a lot of operators, a lot of people who get into syndication, they know the real estate and want to do the real estate, but they do not understand the perspective of the investor. And when you don't communicate to investors on a frequent basis and a clear, transparent nature,   Jason Hull (24:19) Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (24:19) They fill in the blanks and   the first concern every investor has and they won't say it. Most of time they don't say it, but I promise you they're thinking it after they make that investment. my gosh, did I make a mistake? Am I going to lose money? Is this person going to run off? Is this going to be some sort of fraudulent thing? Is this deal going to fail? These are all that we're wired like that. This is caveman stuff, right? We're wired to protect ourselves.   Jason Hull (24:36) Hmm.   Right.   John Casmon (24:45) And when you make an investment, and by the way, our investments are typically $50,000 and up, right? So these are not small investments. So when you make that investment, people start to second guess that decision. So my job when it comes to this side of the business is to keep them grounded that, hey, you've done your research, you've made an informed decision, you've picked a good partner, we've done this before. ⁓   Jason Hull (24:50) Yeah. Right.   John Casmon (25:13) And it's really to make sure that they feel comfortable with that decision. It has nothing to do with the investment, right? The investment itself, we got to go out there and execute. But that investor psyche is a completely different game. So first thing I would tell any of your property managers when they get into this business is understand, do you actually like people? Do you want to manage investors? Are you comfortable managing people's money? ⁓ And then beyond that, you have to do it the legal way. There are a lot of regulations around accepting capital from other people.   Jason Hull (25:31) you   John Casmon (25:42) So you can do it as a joint venture. The more common way of doing it, the more accepted way of doing this is by doing a formal syndication, which requires you to file SEC documentations. ⁓ know, there's regulation D and regulation A and there's some couple others, but typically it's going to be reg D 506 B or 506 C filing, which basically is the the structure that allows you to offer ⁓ passive investment opportunity or a security to investors. So again, for some people,   It's overwhelming. they're like, nope, never mind. But for some people, they love it. They want to get into it and they can learn more about that process.   Jason Hull (26:19) Got it. Yeah. I think I love your idea that it's more about managing expectations rather than the investments. And I think, I think that's good advice for all the property managers listing. This is something we spend a lot of time coaching clients on because they think their job is to manage properties. But really, if they're not strong in managing expectations and managing the relationship, it's 10 times to 100 times harder to manage the properties.   their operational costs go through the roof because owners are getting anxious. They're asking more questions. They're getting all these interruptions and calls, tenants, owners constantly. And if they had just managed the relationship and expectations and set strong boundaries at the outset, everybody would feel calmer. And I think really for business owners, I think the thing that really stood out to me that I've been focused on, and this is I've done some personal coaching and this is just nervous system regulation.   If you can, and John, seem like you're pretty chill and pretty calm and I'm sure the investor feel safe with you, which is why you've had success. If you are a person that is anxious and you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off, you're going to have, you're going to struggle in leading anybody, especially in relationships to your spouse and like everybody else. so having a calm, regulated nervous system allows your investors.   to entrain to your nervous system and to feel safer and to calm down. And that's not something you can pretend or you can just fake. You have to be that and they can sense and they can feel that it'll come across in your tone and in your body language and how you communicate. But if you can make sure that you're in that space and that you're able to regulate your own system, you're able to stay calm when other people are coming at you.   and other people are angry and other people are emotionally heightened. And you recognize this isn't really you. It's just that's them. And you can maintain that calm. You will be able to create a lot more safety. And that's really what people want to buy. Most people out there, their primary basic need is safety and security. Most people. That's why they aren't entrepreneurs. That's why they don't go start jobs. That's why they aren't like you and me. And if you're a property management business owner listening to this,   Most people are not like you. They want safety and security. That's why they get a property manager. They want peace of mind. And so, and I'm sure investors in a syndication, they also want some peace of mind because this is a big chunk of change.   John Casmon (28:55) They do. And I will say to most of the property managers I come across thrive in chaos. Right. They're used to stuff getting thrown at them. Right. And when you talk to them and get to know them, you learn very quickly. They like it. They do. They like the fact that they don't know what the day is going to bring. It could be a. Yeah, yeah. Could be a tenant coming with some crazy issue. It could be something from it's never boring and they thrive in it. However.   Jason Hull (29:00) Yeah.   Yeah.   They like the variety and unique challenges that property management brings, for sure.   It's never boring.   John Casmon (29:25) What happens then if you if they're going to look to work with investors and particularly raise capital and kind of do their own syndications, they have to understand that while they may thrive in chaos and uncertainty, most other people want organization. You want everything you said right. You want to have the calmness. You are looking for a captain to steer the ship. And for that part of the personality, they're going to have to tap into a different side of it to demonstrate how they handle chaos.   Jason Hull (29:37) Hmm.   Yeah.   Yeah.   John Casmon (29:54) not that they are chaotic. And I think what happens a lot of times when you're working with property managers is that they don't project that level of control. It just feels like they're reacting. So part of it is that, and they're really, really good ones. The ones who make it to that next level who are the regional managers and get those promotions, well, that's what they do. They manage the chaos and they manage up. They do a great job of telling the owners,   Jason Hull (30:06) Yeah.   Mm.   John Casmon (30:23) the leadership, whoever they need to talk to, they're telling them, hey, here's how here's our process. Here's how we're managing the situation. Here's what's going on. Here's what we're into. Hey, we had a water main burst here. Here's we bought. call three companies. We've got three quotes, but it's calm, right? It can be the worst. I'll give you a real example, right? At a fire, one of my properties and I was going to meet a property manager and I just happened to have a meeting with her that day at the property. She called me.   I was literally about to get in the car. She called me and said, Hey, I just want to let you know we've got a fire going on at the property. I'm not sure if you still want to meet. You're happy to come. We already have, you know, the fire department's here. They're they're putting the fire out right now. We already have another company that's coming in. They're going to walk through the damages once this is kind of settled. And I've already talked to the residents. Residents are good. We've got them hotels for the evening. We've checked with insurance. This is covered in your policy. So they're good to go. So you're happy to come down and talk and all of that if you want to.   Or we can let things settle down and maybe we can meet next week. This is a fire, right? This is like a scary situation. She called me.   Jason Hull (31:26) Right. A literal fire. Yeah. And there's plenty of fires   in managing properties. The literal ones.   John Casmon (31:33) Her calmness, she was so calm. Not only was   she calm, she had handled 90 % of it, right? It was the stuff you could handle in the moment. She handled it. So was like, hey, I don't think it makes sense for me to because I'm probably just going to add more anxiety to the situation at this point, right? It seems like you've got it under control. Why don't we let things settle, literally let the dust settle? And then once it's there, I'll come down. We can assess the damages, figure out what else needs to happen, what other next steps need to take place, right?   Jason Hull (31:41) Yeah? huh.   question. Yeah.   John Casmon (32:03) but had it handled like a rock star. Now, a lot of other folks would have saw the flames, called immediately, my God, there's a fire. ⁓ my God, what are we gonna do? So now you freaking out, everyone's freaking out, no one's controlling the situation, right? So now everyone's mind is just spinning and going. it does really take, kind of go back to where we started the conversation, that mindset of someone who was the boss, who was leading.   Jason Hull (32:05) Yeah, I love that.   Yeah. Freaking out. Yeah.   Hmm. Yeah.   John Casmon (32:32) who is going to take charge, even though it's not their property, they're going to take charge. Here's what needs to happen next. Maybe you have an emergency response plan already put in place, but you have these things already scheduled and ready to go. So when they happen, you're not shocked. You're not surprised. You're not asking questions that maybe you should have figured out upfront. And that's what a great property manager does. And if you convey that to owners, you're going to stand out above and beyond your competition because most people cannot convey that level of control, the level of   planning and the level of expertise that it takes to truly and effectively manage properties from the front, being proactive as opposed to just reacting to whatever the issue of the day is.   Jason Hull (33:13) Got it, okay. So ⁓ I'm reading, I just read, well, I didn't just read. I read in the past a really great book called Extreme Ownership. Really good book. Yeah, phenomenal book. ⁓ I'm going through their newer book, which I think is even better, called The Dichotomy of Leadership. leadership is what we're talking about right now, is that that,   John Casmon (33:23) Yeah, I think I got it like right here. It is right there.   Absolutely.   Jason Hull (33:38) creates a huge impact and there's a lot of misunderstandings of what leadership is, like it's control or it's being aggressive or, but yeah, it's really that calm presence of letting people know I've got it. Like we can take care of this. We've got a plan and staying regulated and calm. So I love that. ⁓ have a, so another question I have is how can the property managers listen to this? How could they maybe target or partner   with, if possible, syndications like you, like people that are doing what you're doing. Is there a chance that they could be a resource or do most syndications just in-house and do, they are a property management business?   John Casmon (34:19) No, no, most ⁓ most that I know work with third party manager companies. So I would say first and foremost, if you and syndications, I mean, it sounds like a big, huge, fancy word. But I mean, honestly, anytime you work with passive investors is technically a syndication. So it really comes down to figuring out who is looking for third party management and whether or not it's technically a syndication or not is really irrelevant. You want someone who is going to be managing or owning the property.   Jason Hull (34:24) Okay.   Yeah.   John Casmon (34:49) They want third party, but you have to understand their plan, going back to understanding the goals, right? Most syndications are looking to sell in a three to seven year timeframe, typically five to seven years. Most buy and hold owners have not decided or have not identified their exit strategy. So that's probably the biggest difference is when you have, let's just call it an individual investor or maybe it's a   Jason Hull (35:01) Okay.   Right.   John Casmon (35:17) a family or whatever that's buying and they want a third party manager, they don't know the exit. They haven't predetermined that they're going to sell in five years. So they are buying and holding it. And that goes back to the the I think the separation of understanding the objective, because for that person, having a full property is great. It means they're maximizing the revenue potential today. When you are syndicating.   most syndicators already assume 5 % vacancy. That's that's in everyone's underwriting. So you being at 100, they won't even give you credit banks don't even give you credit for it. So all of these things are already assumed. So for us to be above that is actually a miss, because it means we're not being as aggressive on the rent. So just understanding the mindset of a syndicator, which is they are looking to sell typically they're looking to double their money over a five or six year period. So how can you create value?   And that's something most property managers don't fully understand. But I would sit and I would talk to that syndicator. And if you want to be a syndicator or partners, not just be a third party vendor, but you actually want a partner, which we have seen a lot of folks look to do. You want to figure out how you can bring value to the table, because now we are aligning your interest with that syndicators interest. And now you've got a great partnership.   because every syndicator is going to need property management and they're going to need construction management to drive value. So if they can bring those people in as partners, that's a great opportunity for you. And if you're a property manager, you may have phenomenal relationships. You may already have contractor or the vendor partners that you trust in that marketplace. And if you could then take that and get a slice of the equity, that makes you very valuable for both sides.   Jason Hull (37:08) Do syndications, do they also need investors in capital or do most of them have that, are they really good at that? Okay.   John Casmon (37:15) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   mean, I mean, syndication at its core really just comes down to the need of capital. If someone had the capital themselves, they would probably just buy it directly and not go through the process of syndication. Because the syndication is literally just raising the money from passive investors. And in that scenario, again, being able to manage that, manage the communication, ⁓ that's really what a syndication truly is.   Jason Hull (37:42) So a really good property management partner could bring property management, some of the construction elements and investors and capital to the table. So it could be a nice little.   John Casmon (37:51) That would be amazing.   I'll be honest, man. That's because I don't want your listeners sitting here like, oh, I don't have one of those. I don't know if I've ever met one that had all of those. If you do have all of them, yes, you should consider syndicating yourself because you got all the pieces to the puzzle. Typically, what happens is a property manager has the property managers. I'll give you a great example. I got a 54 unit down in North Carolina. OK, so I came in as a key principal. I've got a.   Jason Hull (38:03) Okay.   Okay.   John Casmon (38:20) to my coaching clients. It's his property that he found. He asked me to come help him with the loan, which I did. One of the members, one of the partners is the property manager. So that's kind of their role to the table is they're managing the property. That's what they kind of came on. They had a couple of relationships, but their main role is the asset and property management side of it. So that's a great way to come to the table. But. Just like anything else in business.   Jason Hull (38:33) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (38:49) It's very hard to find someone who checks every single box. I mean, that's like finding the marketer who's a CMO, who's also the CFO, who's also the COO, who's also the chief of human resource. very like no one, people don't really have like top notch excellent skills at every single one of those, right? Like you might be great at business, great at sales, great at marketing. You're probably terrible at finance, right? Like you just, you just forget to do your expense report type person, right? So it's hard to find someone who's   checks all those boxes. And I think typically when comes to property management, you want someone who's great with people, can resolve issues, but also has to be somewhat, you know, sufficient when it comes to the numbers, tracking all the data, tracking all the, you know, the rent roll, the leases, the income and expense statements, things like that. So usually they're not going to do every single box. But again, if you can find someone or that's where partnerships make sense.   Jason Hull (39:24) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (39:43) If you've got that awesome. And again, I'm not saying a company doesn't have that. I'm just saying a single individual doesn't, which is why it's great to partner. If you can find someone who maybe brings a set of skills that you don't have, whether they're joining you in your property management business or they're partnering up where you're bringing your property management skills to the table with their investing or their networking skills, that makes for a good partnership.   Jason Hull (39:43) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I got it. Well, we've got several clients, you know, all over the U S that are really good at property management. They're really good at handling the maintenance stuff and they obviously have a pool of investors as clients and, and, know, and they know that they can't do everything. So we coach them in making sure that they would do time studies. They figure out which, what their purpose is. We start to align them towards more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution and more support in their business.   John Casmon (40:32) Yeah.   Jason Hull (40:38) And they start to build the right team. So they're getting operators, they're getting BDMs, they're getting the things they're not like strong in. And so we just make healthier businesses. So for those of maybe my clients listening that have healthy property management companies. And, but they don't want to do syndication. They're just like, man, that's a whole nother business. If I stay in my lane, I can grow that faster. How do they find syndicates? Like, how do they find people like you? Cause you've got a lot of properties connected to you.   and they would probably love to chat with somebody like you. Where do you syndicate people hang out? What's the title? Who runs a syndicate? What are they called? Do they have a specific title?   John Casmon (41:15) You   Yeah.   Yeah, great. Great question. Multifamily syndicator is is kind of the name just syndicator. We're all over. So I've got a podcast called Multifamily Insights. I interview like minded individuals. I've been doing that for a long time. We've done our seven hundred and seventy plus episode. So lots of people, lots of syndicators there. Definitely conferences. So if you look up any multifamily conference in your city.   Jason Hull (41:25) Okay.   Nice.   Okay.   John Casmon (41:46) meetups, lot of meetups in different cities as well. Those are great places to find syndicators. I think the biggest thing though is this.   Figure out who your avatar is. Because while we're talking about syndicators, ultimately, if you want to scale your property management business, I presume you're trying to scale with folks who are looking for third party management and the best option for that. OK, and let me back up. had one of the guests out of a podcast some years back, ⁓ Ashley Wilson. Love Ashley. As you said, something really changed when I thought about the business.   And she said the best way to find any vendor, any vendor is to figure out who relies on that vendor next and ask them for referral. So if you think about it, if you want a great drywall person, ask a painter. A painter is going to know who's great at drywall because they're going to know who makes their job easy and they can come in and just start painting versus a drywall guy who maybe doesn't, you know, you know.   Jason Hull (42:38) I like it.   John Casmon (42:55) mud the drywall properly or doesn't sand it down. So they got to do all this extra work before they start their process. Right. So a painter is going to know a great drywall guy. And in this case, it's really hard on ⁓ the property manager because you guys are the ones who do the work. But if you are looking for syndicators, OK, well syndicators, person who buys the deal. Well, who sells the deal? A broker. Find brokers. Go to a broker, commercial multifamily broker and ask them, hey,   Jason Hull (43:01) I love this.   Yeah.   John Casmon (43:25) Do you know some groups or you have properties that you're going to list? Here are the kind of deals we want to do now on the flip side of that. You got to be good at your job, right? You got to sell yourself and share what you do. So if you've got a great track record, a great resume, showcase that, bring that broker through and let them know, hey, we're looking to scale our property management business here. Here are the kind of assets that we want to manage. If you come across any of these that you're going to list, would you mind keeping our main name out there or referring us or giving us introductions to any of those buyers?   Jason Hull (43:53) Yeah.   John Casmon (43:54) so that we can throw our hat in the running to manage these properties. That's a phenomenal way to do that. And it allows you to shine and expand your relationships in your core networks and in your core markets.   Jason Hull (44:06) Brilliant. think I love the, I love Ashley's idea that you shared, you know, the drywall. Yeah. The painters, like they don't want to be painting over a crappy drywall. They're like, this is a mess. Like this doesn't even look good in my job. Now I'm going to look bad. Yeah. So the brokers know who maybe those best syndicators are. And so they could just go to the brokers and say, Hey, who's, who's doing deals like this? Who who's got things going on? Like who could you connect me with?   And I avoid maybe.   John Casmon (44:36) And on top of that, keep in mind, too, like what   are the times when? Yeah, but think about to like when is a property hiring or bringing on a new property manager? Right. So it's either a current owners firing the existing property manager or the property is being sold. Right. So, I mean, if you can get in during that transition phase, that's going to help you tremendously. And if even if they're firing their existing property manager, you can think through, OK, how do I?   Jason Hull (44:51) Yeah. Yeah.   John Casmon (45:06) work myself and get my name out there. And a lot of times, again, you're going to ask, right? You're going to ask other investors. If I were going through that process, I'm going to call my buddies into space, right? And say, hey, man, having a hard time, my current PM is not working out or we're not hitting our objectives, looking at some other options. Do you have any experience with these guys? What do you know about these guys? Or do you have anybody you could recommend? It's word of mouth, right? So that's what's going to start happening as well. So you kind of have to get out there and network and let folks know who you are, what you do. But you want to be someone who   people can say, yeah, these guys are amazing. You know, they, they only had an eight unit, but they crushed my eight unit for me. I'm sure they kill your 25 unit or your 50 unit. And you've got to start building that rapport and building your reputation in your market.   Jason Hull (45:44) Yeah.   Nice. This is good advice, my friend. So, cool. For those that maybe are investors listening to this show, ⁓ I'd love to hear a little bit about what you do, how you do run your syndication, and how they can ⁓ make things more passive, if that's what they're looking   John Casmon (46:08) Yeah, man. So there are lots of different ways to get in. If you are looking to be more passive, ⁓ high level, here's how it works. OK, so first and foremost, me and my team would go out. We look for the deals. We focus on a really tight radius. So we're in Cincinnati. We like Cincinnati, Columbus, Louisville, Kentucky. Really a two hour radius of the Cincinnati market is where we focus. And right now we actually think there's more opportunities locally. So we're really honed in on Cincinnati right now. But we focus on that once we find a deal.   We reach out to folks in our network. So we have folks in our investor list. ⁓ Once they're on our list, we kind of have a quick vetting process and then we can share opportunities with them. Once they see that opportunity, they get a chance to review it. We like to have a webinar where we answer any questions about the deal. I think for new investors, it's a great way to learn because we have a lot of experienced investors who ask very intelligent, thoughtful questions that   Many first time investors probably would not even think of. And that's a great way to learn, right? And ultimately when it comes to this space, it's really about education. know, it's educating yourself, understanding how you think about risk, how you mitigate risk in your investment choices. And those webinars are a great chance for you to learn about that the first time. Once you've done that, you can go ahead and fill out our official paperwork with our SEC documents.   Jason Hull (47:30) Mm-hmm.   John Casmon (47:30) And then   once you're through there, you can make the investment. But the first thing is just to get on our list, you can have access to the deals. And before you do that, we've actually put together a guide that can help people because I found that when I have these calls, people don't ask great questions. Sometimes they do. But I want to make sure that you are informed and well educated because this is a big investment. You know, this is not a 599 thing. And if it doesn't work out, OK, well, I just wasted six bucks. No.   Jason Hull (47:54) .   John Casmon (47:59) We're asking you to make a pretty large investment, whether it's with us or with others. If that's what you're looking to do, I want to make sure you're well informed. So we put together a guide. It's seven questions you must ask before investing in apartments. You can get that on our website. It's casmancapital.com slash seven questions, but it gets into questions around the market itself, the operating team, what you should be looking for, the deal. What is the story of this property? What's the business plan? And it helps you identify different levels of risk because the reality is   Anything can work, but you want to mitigate risk as much as possible, particularly when you're a passive investor, because you are basically saying, I'm trusting these people to find the right deal and execute. And you want to make sure that you are finding and identifying the right individuals who have a proven track record doing the thing that they are asking to do. When I hear about people losing money in real estate. At least 50, if not 70 % of the time.   Jason Hull (48:35) Hmm.   John Casmon (48:57) It is someone doing something for the first time. It is the first time in the market, first time doing this kind of deal, first time doing this kind of business plan. And. I can't tell you how frustrating it is because it's a big red flag, and it's not to say they can't do it and can't have success. But if it's your first time, I want to see how you're mitigating that right. You want to partner with someone who does have the experience you want. Like there are lot of things that you can do to put the odds in your favor. And when you're a passive investor.   Jason Hull (48:59) Mm, yeah.   John Casmon (49:26) It is not your job to hope. Your job is to analyze the information in front of you and make an informed decision. So this guide can help you do that.   Jason Hull (49:34) Yeah, love it. I'm going to run a quick word from our sponsor real quick. Our sponsor for this episode is Vendero. And many of you tell me that property management maintenance is probably the least enjoyable part of being a property manager and definitely the most time consuming. But what if you could cut that workload by up to 85 percent? That's exactly what Vendero has achieved. So they leverage cutting edge AI technology to handle nearly all your maintenance tasks from initiating work orders.   Troubleshooting, coordinating with vendors and reporting. This AI doesn't just automate, it becomes your ideal employee. Learning your preferences, executing tasks flawlessly and never needing a day off and never quitting. This frees you up to focus on the critical tasks that really move the needle for your business, whether that's refining operations, expanding your portfolio or even just taking a well-deserved break. Don't let maintenance drag you down. Step up your property management game with Vendero. Visit vendero.ai slash door grow today and make this the last maintenance hire you'll ever need.   All right, so John, this is super helpful. love you've got your list. ⁓ You got your webinar, you've got your guide. I would recommend property managers listening to this. If they're curious about the world of syndication, that they start getting into your stuff and seeing how an expert like you is doing this and maybe even get involved in some of the deals with you or something might be a good idea. And they can kind of get a feel for how this works. And then maybe they'll say, I don't want to do what John does.   And I'll just find people that do, but they'll at least understand how they could partner with people like that. then, or they may decide, you know what? John's clever, but I'm clever too. I might be able to figure out how to do this too. And maybe they'll do it too. And, but I think there's a solid opportunity for property managers that want to be in the multifamily space and do multifamily management to find third party people that are doing these syndication deals. They need good property managers and property managers want more doors and they want to grow.   And if you don't, because your business sucks and it's uncomfortable, then reach out to me. I'll help you out. We'll get you dialed in. But ⁓ John, what else would you say to the investors that are maybe they're familiar with this and they've done some real estate investing and they've worked with some syndications ⁓ and they get on your list to do the webinar. What would you say to them next?   John Casmon (51:56) Yeah, I think the biggest thing is understand what you're looking for. You know, I think one of the biggest challenges for investors is when you can't pull the trigger, it's typically because you haven't figured out what you're solving for. Are you looking for passive income? So you're just looking for a cash flow? Are you looking for long term wealth appreciation? Are you looking for tax benefits and to reduce kind of your tax liability? Do just want to diversify? Maybe you got feel like you have too much in a stock market, just like we put something somewhere else. So.   Figure out what you're actually solving for. Understand your risk tolerance, you know, because every deal is different. In our case, we do value add B class deals. That's a fancy way of just saying we like properties that already making money that are solid, solid tenant based. Think of when I say B class, I'm thinking of all stuff that was built maybe 30 years ago, maybe 40, maybe 20 years ago. Stuff that.   your teachers, your firefighters, your police officers, places where they might rent. So desirable locations, not luxury, not super high end, not, you know, super courts, everything. ⁓ But, you know, places that you would want your kid, your kid was in college, places you would be fine with your kid living, right? So you're thinking about that stuff. That's, you know, I don't say affordable stuff. That's not crazy price. So that's kind of what we focus on.   Jason Hull (53:15) So would   that be like, is that how you find the best markets then?   John Casmon (53:21) That's part of it. That's our strategy. There are different strategies that people utilize. I have found for us that is a sweet spot where we can take those kind of assets, modernize them and create value for potential renters. Some people like to focus only on they call it core plus right where they're buying newer stuff, stuff built five years ago or three years ago. And maybe it was, you know, leased up and they're just going to go in and hold it longer. You'll find other ways to add more money through amenities.   Jason Hull (53:35) Okay.   John Casmon (53:50) So some people do that strategy. Some people like older properties where they're buying more distressed or much older properties and are trying to fully renovate them and bring them up. There are strategies out there, something like new construction, stuff that doesn't exist. They want to build from the ground up. So it really comes down to you. Every investing strategy has a different level of risk. This has nothing to with real estate, right? This is investing in general. you're buying, you know, know, value stocks versus growth stocks versus Internet, it's the same stuff, right?   So you just have to figure out your level of risk. We like value at B-class multifamily deals. Once you understand your level of risk and balance that with your return expectations or projections, that's when you can figure out which investments actually make sense. You know, I have some folks who they like to invest in what we call trophy assets. And...   They may not know that right away, but when you send them a couple of deals and they look at the property like, ⁓ it's okay. They want something. They want something they can brag about. They want to drive you by like, see that building over there? That's me. And if that's fine, if that's what you want, understand what comes with that, right? That's going to be a lower term, right? Because these are, there's not much value to create, right? You've got a brand new property. It's A class, rents are $2,500. There's not a whole lot you can do there. And because of that,   Jason Hull (54:49) Yeah, they don't want to show that off. Look what I'm connecting.   OK, right.   Thank   Yeah.   John Casmon (55:13) There's not as much risk. So you're going to get less return because there's less risk. That's fun. Some people want to maximize their return, right? Hey, I don't need this money. I want to let it ride for 20 years. So they might want to do new construction or they might want to do a deep discount, highly distressed vacant property that needs, you know, $50,000 per unit to renovate it and turn around because the upside is there. So it just depends on that investor and your level of risk. Right. And most of us fall somewhere in the middle.   Jason Hull (55:27) Thank   John Casmon (55:43) which is kind of our strategy. figure out your level of risk tolerance, what you're looking for. And sometimes you don't know until you start looking at a Because you might think you're a cashflow person until I show you what cash flows. And you're like, oh, no, I don't want to be in that de

Welcome back to the 271st episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 271st episode we have a new artist interview. This particular conversation is between our Associate Artistic Producer Jillian Robinson and Julia Cratchley, the Choreographer & Artistic Director of the epic immersive dance company, Transcen|Dance Project. Together these two unveil the behind-the-scenes magic of immersive performance, discuss how paramount remounts are, and map out the benefit of indulging the good with the bad.Follow Transcen|Dance Project – Instagram/TikTok: @transcendanceprojectWebsite : https://www.transcendanceproject.com/Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com.

Welcome back to the 273rd episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 273rd episode we bring you a Duet Review of An Intervention by Mike Bartlet, directed by 郝邦宇 Steven Hao, and presented in its Toronto premiere as the inaugural production by Downstage Theatre Company. Join Mackenzie Horner and Ryan Borochovitz, as they discuss resourceful staging solutions, questionable wordplay, and the high costs of producing indie theatre. An Intervention ran at Native Earth Performing Arts' Giisiz Studio (585 Dundas St E, Toronto, ON) from February 11th to 15th, 2026. More information about the production can be found on the company's Instagram, @downstage.theatreco CONTENT WARNING: An Intervention contains themes, discussions, and depictions of substance abuse (particularly alcoholism) and suicide; this review, likewise, speaks directly to these topics. Viewer discretion is strongly advised. Less importantly, this review contains many SPOILERS for An Intervention. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [32:44] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. Though the run has already ended, you may still choose to proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Ryan Borochovitz – [Just send all that love to CoH instead; he won't mind!]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.comCHAPTERS: 0:00 – Introduction 3:26 – Pre-Spoiler: TTC Be Crazy Sometimes 4:17 – P-S: Synopsis, Pt.1 12:05 – P-S: What Did I Miss?17:26 – P-S: General Appraisal 24:17 – P-S: How Old? 28:07 – P-S: Production Elements 32:43 – SPOILERS from here on out 33:14 – Synopsis, Pt.2 43:08 – Not Thinking Clearly 45:15 – Wordplay (ft. Mike Bartlett's Cock) 53:23 – Vagueness vs. Obliqueness 57:33 – Red Rope & Neckties 1:01:39 – The Moment After 1:02:48 – Toward a More Affordable Future 1:08:09 – Sign Off

Welcome back to the 272nd episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 272nd episode we bring you a Duet Review of White Rabbit, Red Rabbit by Nassim Soleimanpour, presented by One Four One Collective, Nassim Soleimanpour Productions, and The Assembly Theatre. Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie Horner is joined by new guest panelist Sophie Loosley-Millman to unpack this no-rehearsal, no-director, no-set theatrical experiment—where a different performer each night opens a sealed envelope and reads the script for the first time live on stage. Featuring Anand Rajaram as the performer they saw, the duo explores his unique take, the symbolism woven through the text, and whether Sophie would teach the play in her classroom.White Rabbit, Red Rabbit is playing at The Assembly Theatre (1479 Queen St. W., Toronto, ON) until February 20th, 2026. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.theassemblytheatre.com/whiterabbitredrabbit This review contains many SPOILERS for White Rabbit, Red Rabbit. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [12:25] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Sophie Loosley-Millman – Instagram: @soph.lmFollow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.comCHAPTERS: 0:00 – Intro: Romeo's Butt 4:32 – Pre-Spoiler12:17 – SPOILERS from here on out 12:37 – Remember the Order 15:56 – Beast Fable 21:06 – Unreliable Narrators 22:34 – One of the classic blunders! 26:28 – Anand Rajaram 29:34 – Language Barrier 31:57 – Say Uncle 35:34 – Grade 1237:55 – Sign Off

Welcome back to the 269th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 269th episode we bring you a Round-up Review of Dead of Winter, produced by Eldritch Theatre and Spindle Collective. Join Jillian Robinson and Mackenzie Horner, as they discuss 6 new spooky and gory stories, supported by ominous musicality, each highlighting fear through fantasy and reality. Dead of Winter was the first Toronto horror theatre festival and played at Red Sandcastle Theatre (922 Queen St. E., Toronto, ON.) from January 21-25, 2026. More information about the show can be found at: https://deadofwinterprogram.my.canva.site/This review contains SPOILERS. The episode will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [07:47] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. This iteration of the production has ended but if the production gets remounted in the future, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk.TIMESTAMP NAVIGATOR: 0:00 – Intro 2:49 – Festival Overview (Pre-Spoiler) 7:25 – SPOILERS from here on out 8:13 – spilleHOLLE 12:05 – The Matchmaker 16:52 – Musical Interlude: Andra Zlatescu 18:41 – The Hag of Bell Island 24:15 – Perfect Pains 29:08 – Jimmy 34:24 – Musical Interlude: Morgara 36:16 – Mercy of the Vampire 41:31 – Sign Off Follow our panelists:Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96 Mackenzie Horner – Instagram: (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: @BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAuFollow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com.

Welcome back to the 270th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 270th episode we have an episode of “The Cup: Editorial” in which Co-Artistic Producers Ryan Borochovitz and Mackenzie Horner pull together various threads that have been on our mind around the topic of Shakespeare on film prompted in part by the Oscar buzz around Chloé Zhao's Hamnet. What does it mean for a movie to be (or not to be) Hamlet? Is Disney's The Lion King really as Hamlet-ish as your cool English teacher would have you believe? What are some pitches for new Shakespearean film adaptations we'd like to see? Join Ryan Borochovitz and Mackenzie Horner, as they discuss everything from Hamnet to Hamlet, Burton to Branagh, and Pride Rock to pumpkin pants. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner – Instagram: (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: @BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAuRyan Borochovitz – [Just send all that love to CoH instead; he won't mind!]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow us on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.comCHAPTERS: 0:00 – Intro: no hat upon his head (2.1.89)2:36 – The Topic at Hand9:14 – To be (or not to be) Definitive 19:59 – Hamnet (Non-Spoilers) 24:45 – Weird Hamlets & Classic Hamlets 31:19 – Hakuna Matata 50:17 – To be (or not to be) Hamlet 1:11:42 – The Northman 1:17:22 – End of Act 1 1:21:40 – Let's Do Some Fun Buzzfeed 1:22:30 – M1: Merry Wives of Windsor (dir. Paul Feig) 1:26:38 – R1: Bikebeth (dir. Robert Lepage) 1:32:52 – M2: Bike-us Andronicus 1:38:24 – R2: Denzel's Othello 1:41:05 – M3: Richard II 1:47:04 – R3: Comedy of Error (dir. NOT Joss Whedon) 1:51:30 – M4: A Claymation Night's Dream 1:53:40 – Conclusion: What Can You Do Differently? 1:57:36 – Sign Off

The tripods were out, legends were taking stats as Fantasy coaches dive into the unofficial practice matches to see which players they would like to select in their starting squads. Although we say every year that we need to be cautious with what data we extract from these games, it was good to just have footy back!In this episode, the panel does stocks up and stocks down with every match that was played last week. Which players have increased their value and which ones have dropped off? Find out what the boys think and more!The PODPOD is brought to you by Moreira's Magic in 2026. All Holmes Files episodes will be available exclusively as a part of the 2026 Season Guide. As well as the podcasts, the Season Guide will also include: Player profiles and comments for all players in the AFL Best 22's from the MM team Draft rankings DVP Strength of schedule Market Share Podcasts with Selby and Xavier Ellis Holmes Files episodes exclusive to the guide Much much more!The guide is now live! A must have for any serious Fantasy coach head over to moreirasmagic.com.au/ to order now! The guide will be updated right up until the start of round 1 and the in-season content beginsPODPOD ChallengeLeague code: JXR8EF6MAsk me on Qu Podpodafl has once again partnered with Qu platforms in 2026 to help answer your afl fantasy questions During the season - Selby and Holmesy will be recording a podcast late in the week to answer general questions and themes For a guaranteed answer and to help support the PODPOD, for a small fee you have the ability to have a personalised audio response to your afl fantasy questions There is the ability for full team reviews, questions on individual players and during the season there is the ability to ask trade questions, vc/c options and many more Head to https://askmeonqu.com/podpodafl now!Follow us on X:The PODPOD: @podpodAFLHolmesy: @HolmesysheroesLewy: @AFLewyHarmey: @jonharmeyDos: @HKdosSam: @grillis03Jordy: @jordandsenaDossy: @HKdos

Adam starts off this week's episode with a recent beef he has with Boy Meets World. The fellas recap the Valentine's Day trivia they hosted and Adam shares about his participation in the Okoboji Burger Battle! Ryan then shares a hilarious childhood skiing story and why he wasn't destined to be an olympic skier. In the Meat, Mm!, of the episode we remember the illustrious career of Robert Duvall and rank our top 5 Duvall movies. We end the show with a trip to the 90s VHS cabinet. Hut Hut! Love y'all.

In Episode 8 of newly named WE Don't Know ball, formerly Allegedly Sports, M|M and Tom Schneider recap Super Bowl weekend, break down the early NFL offseason, and dive deep into one of the most honest quarterback conversations of the year. The episode opens with a candid Super Bowl recap, including why the game fell flat, what Seattle did better, and why one loss doesn't erase a strong Patriots season. M|M and Tom discuss Drake Maye's late-season regression, the role of experience, injuries, and weather, and why defensive performances often get overlooked when the offense stalls. From there, the conversation shifts to franchise tags, salary cap decisions, and how teams recover from massive contract mistakes. Using recent examples, they explore why coaching stability and leadership matter more than public panic. Quarterback “retreads” become the central theme as M|M and Tom debate which former starters still have upside in the right system. Names like Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Mac Jones, Kyler Murray, Justin Fields, and others are evaluated through the lens of opportunity, coaching, and pressure — not just raw talent. The episode wraps with thoughts on the NBA All-Star Game, praising the renewed competitiveness while questioning the future of the dunk contest and the importance of star participation. Real debate, real context, no hot takes. Topics Covered Super Bowl recap and Patriots–Seahawks analysis Drake Maye's development and late-season play NFL franchise tags and cap management Quarterback contracts and team recovery NFL QB retreads and second chances How many QBs are truly franchise players NBA All-Star Game competitiveness Dunk contest decline and star power

12 of the greatest, by the greatest MM!!Machel Montano and Xtatik - Big TruckPatrice Roberts & Machel - Band Of D YearMachel Montano - JumbieMachel Montano - AdvantageMachel Montano - Pump yuh Flag (Drum Mix)Machel Montano - Ministry Of Road (M.o.r.)Machel Montano- LIKE AH BOSS RD MIX Machel Montano Ft. Badjohn Republic - Waiting On The StageMachel Montano & Superblue - Soca KingdomMachel Montano ft Skinny Fabulous & Bunji Garlin- FamalayMachel Montano - PardyMachel Montano - Encore

RNIB Connect Radio's Toby Davey is joined again by Vidar Hjardeng MBE, Inclusion and Diversity Consultant for ITV News across England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the channel Islands for another audio described theatre review.This time we have a contemporary dance piece where fearless dancers summon a whirlwind of myth and magic to traditional Irish music with Dance Consortium 'MÁM' at the Birmingham Hippodrome with description by Professional Audio Describer Caroline Burn.About ‘MÁM'MÁM is international dance-theatre at its finest. Described as ‘80 minutes of ritualised ecstasy' by The Irish Times, this visionary piece playfully and provocatively takes you on an otherworldly journey steeped in the landscape and culture of West Kerry in Ireland.MÁM sees 12 fearless dancers summon a whirlwind of myth and magic, moved by the collaborative music making of virtuoso Irish traditional concertina player Cormac Begley and European classical contemporary collective s t a r g a z e, performed live on stage.Nominated for an Olivier Award, MÁM has enjoyed sell-out performances at Sadler's Wells, London and across Festivals world-wide. This rapturous production is now on its debut UK tour for Dance Consortium.For more about the tour of Dance Consortium ‘MÁM' do visit - https://danceconsortium.com

Dans cette Minute Marine, je te parle du concept de “binôme de responsabilité” découvert (ou redécouvert) dans Feel Good Productivity d'Ali Abdaal.L'idée est simple : s'engager vis-à-vis de quelqu'un pour dépasser l'inertie, lutter contre la procrastination et prendre des décisions plus vite — sans pression inutile, mais avec un gentil coup de pied aux fesses.Je t'explique pourquoi ce principe est particulièrement puissant quand on est indépendant, seul face à ses décisions stratégiques… et je te partage une idée, encore très embryonnaire, autour de La Cohorte.Est-ce que tu as déjà un binôme de responsabilité ?Est-ce que ça t'aiderait pour ton business ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin 

Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman join our podcast to discuss how psychedelic policy is actually moving in Washington, DC. Lavasani leads Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, a DC-based advocacy organization focused on educating federal officials and advancing legislation around psychedelic medicine. Kopelman is CEO of Mission Within Foundation, which provides scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy retreats, often outside the United States. The conversation centers on veterans, the VA, and why that system may be the first realistic federal pathway for psychedelic care. Early Themes Lavasani describes PMC's work on Capitol Hill, including hosting events that bring lawmakers, staffers, and advocates into the same room. Her focus is steady engagement. In DC, progress often happens through repeated conversations, not headlines. Kopelman shares his background as a Marine and how his own psychedelic-assisted therapy experience led him to Mission Within. The foundation has funded more than 250 scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking treatment for PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, depression, and addiction. They connect this work to pending veteran-focused legislation and explain why the VA matters. As a closed health system, the VA can pilot programs, gather data, and refine protocols without the pressures of private healthcare markets. Core Insights A recent Capitol Hill gathering, For Veteran Society, brought together members of Congress and leaders from the psychedelic caucus. Lavasani describes candid feedback from lawmakers. The message was clear: coordinate messaging, avoid fragmentation, and move while bipartisan interest remains. Veteran healthcare is not framed as the final goal. It is a starting point. If psychedelic therapies can demonstrate safety and effectiveness within the VA, broader adoption becomes more plausible. Kopelman raises operational realities that must be addressed: Standardized safety protocols across providers Integration support, not medication alone Clear training pathways for clinicians Real-world data beyond tightly screened clinical trials They also address recent negative headlines involving ibogaine treatment abroad. Kopelman emphasizes the need for shared learning across providers, especially when adverse events occur. Lavasani argues that inconsistency within the ecosystem can slow federal confidence. Later Discussion and Takeaways The discussion widens to federal momentum around addiction and mental health. Lavasani notes that new funding initiatives signal growing openness to innovative treatment models, even if psychedelics are not named explicitly in every announcement. Both guests stress that policy moves slowly by design. Meetings, follow-ups, and relationship building often matter more than public statements. For clinicians, researchers, operators, and advocates, the takeaways are direct: Veterans are likely the first federal pathway Public education remains essential Safety standards must be shared and transparent Integration and workforce development need attention now If psychedelic medicine enters federal systems, infrastructure will determine success. Frequently Asked Questions What do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman say about VA psychedelic policy? They argue that veteran-focused legislation offers a realistic first federal pathway for psychedelic-assisted care. Is ibogaine currently available through the VA? No. They discuss ibogaine in the context of private retreats and future possibilities, not an existing VA program. Why do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman emphasize coordination? Lawmakers respond more positively when advocates present aligned messaging and clear priorities. What safety issues are discussed by Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman? They highlight the need for standardized screening, monitoring, integration support, and transparent review of adverse events. Closing Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman provide a grounded look at how psychedelic policy develops inside federal systems. Their message is practical: veterans may be the first lane, but long-term success depends on coordination, safety standards, and sustained engagement. Closing This episode captures a real-time view of how federal policy could shape the next phase of the psychedelic resurgence, especially through veteran-facing legislation and VA infrastructure. Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman argue that coordination, public education, and shared safety standards will shape whether access expands with credibility and care. Transcript Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics Today. Today we have two guests, um, got Melissa Sani from Psychedelic Medicine Coalition. We got Jake Pelman from Mission Within Foundation. We're gonna talk about I bga I became policy on a recent, uh, set of meetings in Washington, DC and, uh, all sorts of other things I'm sure. Joe Moore: But thank you both for joining me. Melissa Lavasani: Thanks for having us. Jay Kopelman: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, Melissa, I wanna have you, uh, jump in. First. Can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your work and what you do at PMC? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, so Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is, um, the only DC based Washington DC based advocacy organization dedicated to the advancing the issue of psychedelics, um, and making sure the federal government has the education they need, um, and understands the issue inside out so that they can generate good policy around, around psychedelic medicines. Melissa Lavasani: [00:01:00] Uh, we. Host Hill events. We host other convenings. Our big event every year is the Federal Summit on psychedelic medicine. Um, that's going to be May 14th this year. Um, where we talk about kinda the pressing issues that need to be talked about, uh, with government officials in the room, um, so that we can incrementally move this forward. Melissa Lavasani: Um, our presence here in Washington DC is, is really critical for this issue's success because, um, when we're talking about psychedelic medicines, um, from the federal government pers perspective, you know, they are, they are the ones that are going to initiate the policies that create a healthcare system that can properly facilitate these medicines and make sure, um, patient safety is a priority. Melissa Lavasani: And there's guardrails on this. And, um, you know, there, it's, it's really important that we have. A home base for this issue in Washington DC just [00:02:00] because, uh, this is very complicated as a lot of your viewers probably understand, and, you know, this can get lost in the mix of all the other issues that, um, lawmakers in DC are focused on right now. Melissa Lavasani: And we need to keep that consistent presence here so that this continues to be a priority for members of Congress. Joe Moore: Mm. I love this. And Jay, can you tell us a bit about yourself and mission within Foundation? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, sure. Joe, thanks. Uh, I, I am the CEO of Mission within Foundation. Prior to this, most of my adult life was spent in the military as a Marine. Jay Kopelman: And I came to this. Role after having, uh, a psychedelic assisted therapy experience myself at the mission within down in Mexico, which is where pretty much we all go. Um, we are here to help [00:03:00] provide, uh, access for veterans and first responders to be able to attend psychedelic assisted therapy retreats to treat issues like mild TBI, post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, depression, sometimes addiction at, at a very low level. Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and so we've, we've been doing this for a little more than a year now and have provided 250 plus scholarships to veterans and first responders to be able to access. These retreats and these, these lifesaving medicines. Um, we're also partnered, uh, you may or may not know with Melissa at Psychedelic Medicine Coalition to help advance education and policy, specifically the innovative, uh, therapy Centers of Excellence Act [00:04:00] that Melissa has worked for a number of years on now to bring to both Houses of Congress. Joe Moore: Thank you for that. Um, so let's chat a little bit about what this event was that just, uh, went down, uh, what, what was it two weeks ago at this point? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Yeah. It's called For Veteran Society and it's all, um, there's a lot of dialogue on Capitol Hill about veterans healthcare and psychedelics, but where I've been frustrated is that, you know, it was just a lot of. Melissa Lavasani: Talk about what the problems are and not a lot of talk about like how we actually propel things forward. Um, so it, at that event, I thought it was really important and we had three members of Congress there, um, Morgan Latrell, who has been a champion from day one and his time in Congress, um, having gone through the experience himself, um, [00:05:00] at Mission within, um, and then the two chairs of the psychedelic caucus, uh, Lou Correa and Jack Bergman. Melissa Lavasani: And we really got down to the nitty gritty of like w like why this has taken so long and you know, what is actually happening right now? What are the possibilities and what the roadblocks are. And it was, I thought it was a great conversation. Um, we had an interesting kind of dynamic with Latres is like a very passionate about this issue in particular. Melissa Lavasani: Um, I think it was, I think it was really. A great event. And, you know, two days later, Jack Bergman introduced his new bill for the va. Um, so it was kind of like the precursor to that bill getting introduced. And we're just excited for more and more conversations about how the government can gently guide this issue to success. Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. [00:06:00] That's fantastic. Um, yeah, I was a little bummed I couldn't make it, but next time, I hope. But I've heard a lot of good things and, um, it's, it sounded like there was some really important messages in, in terms of like feedback from legislators. Yeah. Yeah. Could you speak to that? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, I think when, uh, representative Latrell was speaking, he really impressed on us a couple things. Melissa Lavasani: Um, first is that, you know, they really kind of need the advocates to. Coordinate, collaborate and come up with like a, a strategic plan, you know, without public education. Um, talking to members of Congress about this issue is, is really difficult. You know, like PMC is just one organization. We're very little mission within, very little, um, you know, we're all like, kind of new in navigating, um, this not so new issue, but new to Washington DC [00:07:00] issue. Melissa Lavasani: Um, without that public education as a baseline, uh, it's, it's, you have to spend a lot of time educating members of Congress. You know, that's like one of our things is, you know, we have to, we don't wanna tell Congress what direction to go to. We wanna provide them the information so they understand it very intimately and know how to navigate through things. Melissa Lavasani: Um, and secondly. Um, he got pretty frank with us and said, you know, we've got one cha one chance at this issue. And it's like, that's, that's kind of been like my talking point since I started. PMC is like, you have a very limited window, um, when these kind of issues pop up and they're new and they're fresh and you have a lot of the veteran community coming out and talking about it. Melissa Lavasani: And there's a lot of energy there. But now is the time to really move forward, um, with some real legislation that can be impactful. Um, but, you know, we've gotta [00:08:00] be careful. We, we forget, I think sometimes those of us who are in the ecosystem forget that our level of knowledge about these medicines and a lot of us have firsthand experience, um, with these drugs and, and our own healing journeys is, um, we forget that there is a public out there that doesn't have the level of knowledge that we all have. Melissa Lavasani: And, um. We gotta make sure that we're sticking to the right elements of, of, of what needs to happen. We need to be sure that our talking points are on track and we're not getting sideways about anything and going down roads that we don't need to talk about. It's why, um, you know, PMC is very focused on, um, moving forward veteran legislation right now. Melissa Lavasani: Not because we're a veteran organization, but because we're, we see this long-term policy track here. Um, we know where we want to get [00:09:00] to, um. Um, and watching other healthcare issues kind of come up and then go through the VA healthcare system, I think it's a really unique opportunity, um, to utilize the VA as this closed system, the biggest healthcare system in the country to evaluate, uh, how psychedelics operate within systems like that. Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, before they get into, um, other healthcare systems. What do we need to fix? What do we need to pay attention to? What's something that we're paying too much attention to that doesn't necessarily need that much attention? So it's, um, it's a real opportunity to look at psychedelic medicines within a healthcare system and obviously continue to gather the data. Melissa Lavasani: Um, Bergman's Bill emerging, uh, expanding veteran access to emerging treatments. Um, not only mandates the research, it gives the VA authority for this, uh, for running trials and, and creating programs around psychedelic medicines. But also, [00:10:00] one of the great things about it, I think, is it provides an on-ramp for veterans that don't necessarily qualify for clinical trials. Melissa Lavasani: You know, I think that's one of the biggest criticisms of clinical trials is like you're cre you're creating a vacuum for people and people don't live in a vacuum. So we don't necessarily know what psychedelics are gonna look like in real life. Um, but with this expanding veteran access bill that Bergman introduced, it provides the VA an opportunity to provide this access under. Melissa Lavasani: Um, in a, in a safe container with medical supervision while collecting data, um, while ensuring that the veteran that is going through this process has the support systems that it needs. So, um, you know, I think that there's a really unique opportunity here, and like Latrell said, like, we've got one shot at this. Melissa Lavasani: We have people's attention in Congress. Um, now's the time to start acting, and let's be really considerate and thoughtful about what we're doing with it. Joe Moore: Thanks for that, Melissa and Jay, how, [00:11:00] anything to add there on kind of your takeaways from the this, uh, last visit in dc? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I, I think that Melissa highlighted it really well and there, there were a couple other things that I, I think, you know, you could kind of tie it all together with some other issues that we face in this country, uh, and that. Jay Kopelman: Uh, representative Correa brought up as well, but one of the things I wanted to go back and say is that veterans have kind of led this movement already, right? So, so it's a, it's a good jumping off point, right? That it's something people from both sides of the aisle, from any community in America can get behind. Jay Kopelman: You know, if you think about it, uh, in World War ii, you know, we had a million people serving our population was like, not even 200 million, but now [00:12:00] we have a population of 330 million, and at any given time there might be a million people in uniform, including the Reserve and the National Guard. So it's, it, it's an easy thing to get behind this small part of the population that is willing to sign that contract. Jay Kopelman: Where you are saying, yeah, I'm going to defend my country, possibly at the risk of my l my own life. So that's the first thing. The other thing is that the VA being a closed health system, and they don't have shareholders to answer to, they can take some risks, they can be innovative and be forward thinking in the ways that some other healthcare systems can't. Jay Kopelman: And so they have a perfect opportunity to show that they truly care for their veterans, which don't, I'm not saying they don't, but this would be an [00:13:00] opportunity to show that carrot at a whole different level. Uh, it would allow them to innovate and be a leader in something as, uh, as our friend Jim Hancock will say, you know. Jay Kopelman: When he went to the Naval Academy, they had the world's best shipbuilding program. Why doesn't the VA have the world's best care program for things like TBI and PTSD, which affects, you know, 40 something percent of all veterans, right? So, so there's, there's an opportunity here for the VA to lead from the front. Jay Kopelman: Um, the, these medicines provide, you know, reasonably lasting care where it's kind of a one and done. Whereas with the current systems, the, you know, and, and [00:14:00] again, not to denigrate the VA in any way, they're doing the best job they can with the tools in their toolbox, right? But maybe it's time for a trip to Home Depot. Jay Kopelman: Let's get some new tools. And have some new ways of fixing what's broken, which is really the way of doing things. It's not, veterans aren't broken, we are who we are. Um, but it's a, it's a way to fix what isn't working. So I, I think that, you know, given there's tremendous veteran homelessness still, you know, addiction issues, all these things that do translate to the population at large are things that can be worked on in this one system, the va that can then be shown to have efficacy, have good data, have [00:15:00] good outcomes, and, and take it to the population at large. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Thanks for that. And so there was another thing I wanted to pivot to, which is some of the recent press. So we've, um, seen a little bit of press around some, um, in one instance, some bad behavior in Mexico that a FI put out Americans thrive again, put out. And then another case there was a, a recent fatality. Joe Moore: And I think, um, both are tragic. Like we shouldn't be having to deal with this at this point. Um, but there's a lot of things that got us here. Um, it's not necessarily the operator's fault entirely, um, or even at all, honestly, like some medical interventions just carry a lot of risk. Like think, think about like, uh, how risky bypass surgery was in the nineties, right? Joe Moore: Like people were dying a lot from medical interventions and um, you know, this is a major intervention, uh, ibogaine [00:16:00] and also a lot of promise. To help people quite a bit. Um, but as of right now, there's, there's risk. And part of that risk, in my opinion, comes from the inability of organizations to necessarily collaborate. Joe Moore: Like there's no kind of convening body, sitting in the middle, allowing, um, for, and facilitating really good data sharing and learnings. Um, and I don't, I don't necessarily see an organization stepping up and being the, um, the convener for that kind of work. I've heard rumors that something's gonna happen there, and I'm, I'm hopeful I'll always wanna share my opinion on that. Joe Moore: But yeah. I don't know. Jay, from your perspective, is there anything you want to kind of speak to about, uh, these two recent incidents that Americans for Iboga kind of publicized recently? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, so I, I'll echo your sentiment, of course, that these are tragic incidents. Um, and I, [00:17:00] I think that at least in the case of the death at Ambio, AMBIO has done a very good job of talking about it, right? Jay Kopelman: They've been very honest with the information that they have. And like you said, there are risks inherent to these medicines, and it's like anything else in medicine, there are going to be risks. You know, when I went through, uh, when I, when I went through chemo, you know, there were, there are risks. You know, you don't feel well, you get sick. Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and it. There are processes in place to counter that when it happens. And there are processes and, and procedures and safety protocols in place when caring for somebody going through an ibogaine [00:18:00] journey. Uh, when I did it, we had EKG echocardiogram. You're on a heart monitor the entire time they push magnesium via iv. Jay Kopelman: You have to provide a urinalysis sample to make sure that there is nothing in your system that is going to potentially harm you. During the ibogaine, they have, uh, a cardiologist who is monitoring the heart monitors throughout the ibogaine experience. So the, the safety protocols are there. I think it's, I think it's just a matter of. Jay Kopelman: Standardizing them across all, all providers, right? Like, that would be a good thing if people would talk to one another. Um, as, as in any system, right? You've gotta have [00:19:00] some collaboration. You've gotta have standardization, you know, so, you know, they're not called standard operating procedures for nothing. Jay Kopelman: That means that in a, you know, in a given environment, everybody does things the same way. It's true in Navy and Marine Corps, air Force, army Aviation, they have standard operating procedures for every single aircraft. So if you fly, let's say the F 35 now, right? Because it's flown by the Navy, the Marine Corps, and the Air Force. Jay Kopelman: The, the emergency procedures in that airplane are standardized across all three services, so you should have the same, or, you know, with within a couple of different words, the same procedures and processes [00:20:00] across all the providers, right? Like maybe in one document you're gonna change, happy to glad and small dog to puppy, but it's still pretty much the, the same thing. Jay Kopelman: And as a service that provides scholarships to people to go access these medicines and go to these retreats, you know, my criteria is that the, this provider has to be safe. Number one, safety's paramount. It's always gotta be very safe. It should, it has to be effective. And you know, once you have those two things in place, then I have a comfort level saying, okay, yeah, we'll work with this provider. Jay Kopelman: But until those standardized processes are in place, you'll probably see these one-off things. I mean, some providers have been doing this longer than others and have [00:21:00] really figured out, you know, they've, they've cracked the code and, you know, sharing that across the spectrum would be good. Um, but just when these things happen, having a clearing house, right, where everybody can come together and talk about it, you know, like once the facts are known because. Jay Kopelman: To my knowledge, we still don't know all the facts. Like as, you know, as horrible as this is, you still have to talk about like an, has an autopsy been performed? What was found in the patient's system? You know, there, there are things there that we don't know. So we need to, we need to know that before we can start saying, okay, well this is how we can fix that, because we just don't know. Jay Kopelman: And, you know, to their credit, you know, Amio has always been safe to, to the, to the best of my knowledge. You know, I, [00:22:00] I haven't been to Ambio myself, but people that I have worked with have been there. They have observed, they have seen the process. They believe it's safe, and I trust their opinion because they've seen it elsewhere as well. Jay Kopelman: So yeah, having, having that one place where we can all come together when this happens, it, it's almost like it should be mandatory. In the military when there's a training accident, we, you know, we would have to have what's called a safety standout. And you don't do that again for a little while until you figure out, okay, how are we going to mitigate that happening again? Jay Kopelman: Believe me, you can go overboard and we don't want to do that. Like, we don't wanna just stop all care, but maybe stop detox for a week and then come back to it. [00:23:00] Joe Moore: Yeah. A dream would be, let's get like the, I don't know, 10, 20 most popular, uh, or well-known operators together somewhere and just do like a three day debrief. Joe Moore: Hey, everybody, like, here's what we see. Let's work on this together. You know how normal medicine works. And this is, it's hard because this is not necessarily, um, something people feel safe about in America talking about 'cause it's illicit here. Um, I don't understand necessarily how the operations, uh, relate to each other in Mexico, but I think that's something to like the public should dig into. Joe Moore: Like, what, what is this? And I, I'll start digging into that. Um, I, I asked a question recently of somebody like, is there some sort of like back channel signal everybody's using and there's no clear Yes. You know? Um, I think it would be good. That's just a [00:24:00] start, you know, that's like, okay, we can actually kind of say hi and watch out for this to each other. Jay Kopelman: It's not like we don't all know one another, right? Joe Moore: Yes. Jay Kopelman: Like at least three operators we're represented. At the Aspen Ibogaine meeting. So like that could be, and I think there was a panel kind of loosely related to this during Aspen Ibogaine meeting, but Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: It, you know, have a breakout where the operators can go sit down and kind of compare notes. Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. Melissa, do you have any, uh, comments on this thread here? And I, I put you on mute if you didn't see that. Um, Melissa Lavasani: all right, I'm off mute. Um, yeah, I think that Jay's hits the nail on the head with the collaboration thing. Um, I think that it's just a [00:25:00] problem across the entire ecosystem, and I think that's just a product of us being relatively new and upcoming field. Melissa Lavasani: Um, uh, it's a product of, you know. Our fundraising community is really small, so organizations feel like they are competing for the same dollars, even though their, their goals are all the same, they have different functions. Um, I think with time, I mean, let's be honest, like if we don't start collaborating and, and the federal government's moving forward, the federal government's gonna coordinate for us. Melissa Lavasani: And not, that might not necessarily be a bad thing, but, you know, we understand this issue to a whole other level that the federal government doesn't, and they're not required to understand it deeply. They just need to know how to really move forward with it the proper way. Um, but I think that it. It's really essential [00:26:00] that we all have this come together moment here so we can avoid things. Melissa Lavasani: Uh, I mean, no one's gonna die from bad advocacy. So like I've, I have a bit of an easier job. Um, but it can a, a absolutely stall efforts, um, to move things forward in Washington DC when, um, one group is saying one thing, another group is saying another thing, like, we're not quite at a point yet where we can have multiple lines of conversation and multiple things moving forward. Melissa Lavasani: Um, you know, for PMC, it's like, just let's get the first thing across the finish line. And we think that is, um, veteran healthcare. And, um, I know there's plenty of other groups out there that, that want the same thing. So, you know, I always, the reason why I put on the Federal Summit last year was I kind of hit my breaking point with a lack of collaboration and I wanted to just bring everyone in the same room and say like, all right, here are the things that we need to talk about. Melissa Lavasani: And I think the goal for this year is, um. To bring people in the same room and say, we talked about [00:27:00] we scratched the surface last year and this is where we need to really put our efforts into. And this is where the opportunities are. Um, I think that is going to, that's going to show the federal government if we can organize ourselves, that they need to take this issue really seriously. Melissa Lavasani: Um, I don't think we've done a great job at that thus far, but I think there's still plenty of time for us to get it together. Um, and I'm hoping with these two, uh, VA bills that are in the house right now and Senate is, is putting together their version of these two bills, um, so that they can move in tandem with each other. Melissa Lavasani: I think that, you know, there's an opportunity here for. Us to show the federal government as an ecosystem, Hey, we, we are so much further ahead and you know, this is what we've organized and here's how we can help you, um, that would make them buy into this issue a bit more and potentially move things forward faster. Melissa Lavasani: Uh, at this point in time, it's, I think that, [00:28:00] you know, psychedelics aren't necessarily the taboo thing that they, they used to be, but there's certainly places that need attention. Um, there's certainly conversations that need to be had, and like I said, like PMC is just one organization that can do this. Um, we can certainly organize and drive forward collaboration, but I, like we alone, cannot cover all this ground and we need the subject matter experts to collaborate with us so we can, you know, once we get in the door, we wanna bring the experts in to talk to these officials about it. Melissa Lavasani: So I. I, I really want listeners to really think about us as a convener of sorts when it comes to federal policy. Um, and you know, I think when, like for example, in the early eighties, a lot of people have made comparisons to the issue of psychedelics to the issue of AIDS research and how you have in a subject matter that's like extremely taboo and a patient population that the government [00:29:00] quite honestly didn't really care about in the early eighties. Melissa Lavasani: But what they did as an ecosystem is really organized themselves, get very clear on what they wanted the federal government to do. And within a matter of a couple years, uh, AIDS research funding was a thing that was happening. And what that, what that did was that ripple effect turned that into basically finding new therapies for something that we thought was a death, death sentence before. Melissa Lavasani: So I think. We just need to look at things in the past that have been really successful, um, and, and try to take the lessons from all of these issues and, and move forward with psychedelics. Joe Moore: Love that. And yes, we always need to be figuring out efficient approaches and where it has been successful in the past is often, um, an opportunity to mimic and, and potentially improve on that. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Jay Kopelman: One, one thing I think it's important to add to this part of the conversation is that, [00:30:00] you know, Melissa pointed out there are a number of organizations that are essentially doing the same thing. Jay Kopelman: Um, you know, I like to think we do things a little bit differently at Mission within Foundation in that we don't target any one specific type of service member. We, we work with all veterans. We work with first responders, but. What that leads to is that there are, as far as I've seen, nothing but good intentioned people in this space. Jay Kopelman: You know, people who really care about their patient population, they care about healing, they are trying to do a good job, and more importantly, they're trying to do good. Right? It, it, I think they all see the benefit down the road that this has, [00:31:00] pardon me, not just for veterans, but for society as a whole. Jay Kopelman: And, and ultimately that's where I would like to see this go. You know, I, I would love to see the VA take this. Take up this mantle and, and run with it and provide great data, great outcomes. You know, we are doing some data collection ourselves at Mission within foundation, albeit anecdotal based on surveys given before and after retreats. Jay Kopelman: But we're also working with, uh, Greg Fonzo down at UT Austin on a brain study he's doing that will have 40 patients in it when it's all said and done. And I think we have two more guys to put through that. Uh, and then we'll hit the 40. So there, there's a lot of good here that's being done by some really, really good people who've been doing this for a long time [00:32:00] and want to want nothing more than to, to see this. Jay Kopelman: Come to, come full circle so that we can take care of many, many, many people. Um, you know, like I say, I, I wanna work myself out of a job here. I, I just, I would love to see this happen and then I, you know, I don't have to send guys to Mexico to do this. They can go to their local VA and get the care that they need. Jay Kopelman: Um, but one thing that I don't think we've touched on yet, or regarding that is that the VA isn't designed for that. So it's gonna be a pretty big lift to get the right types of providers into the va with the knowledge, right, with the institutional knowledge of how this should be done, what is safe, what is effective, um, and then it, it's not just providing these medicines to [00:33:00] people and sending them home. Jay Kopelman: You don't just do that, you've gotta have the right therapists on the backend who can provide the integration coaching to the folks who are receiving these medicines. And I'm not just talking, I bga, even with MDMA and psilocybin, you should have a proper period of integration. It helps you to understand how this is going to affect you, what it, what the experience really meant, you know, because it's very difficult sometimes to just interpret it on your own. Jay Kopelman: And so what the experience was and what it meant to you. And, and so it will take some time to spin all that up. But once it's, once it's in place, you know, the sky's the limit. I think. Joe Moore: Kinda curious Jay, about what's, what's going on with Ibogaine at the federal level. Is there anything at VA right now? [00:34:00] Jay Kopelman: At the va? No, not with ibogaine. And, you know, uh, we, we send people specifically for IBOGAINE and five MEO, right? And, and so that, that doesn't preclude my interest in seeing this legislation passed, right? Jay Kopelman: Because it, it will start with something like MDMA or psilocybin, but ultimately it could grow to iboga, right? It the think about the cost savings at, at the va, even with psilocybin, right? Where you could potentially treat somebody with a very inexpensive dose of psilocybin or, or iboga one time, and then you, you don't have to treat them again. Jay Kopelman: Now, if I were, uh, you know, a VA therapist who's not trained in psychedelic trauma therapy. I might be worried [00:35:00] about job security, but it's like with anything, right? Like ultimately it will open pathways for new people to get that training or the existing people to get that training and, and stay on and do that work. Jay Kopelman: Um, which only adds another arrow to their quiver as far as I'm concerned, because this is coming and we're gonna need the people. It's just like ai, right? Like ai, yeah. Some people are gonna lose some jobs initially, and that's unfortunate. But productivity ultimately across all industries will increase and new jobs will be created as a result of that. Jay Kopelman: I mean, I was watching Squawk Box one morning. They were talking about the AI revolution and how there's gonna be a need for 500,000 electricians to. Build these systems that are going to work with the AI [00:36:00] supercomputers and, and so, Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: Where, where an opportunity may be lost. I think several more can be gained going forward. Melissa Lavasani: And just to add on what Jay just said there, there's nothing specific going on with Ibogaine at, at the va, but I think this administration is, is taking a real look at addiction in particular. Uh, they just launched, uh, a new initiative, uh, that's really centered on addiction treatments called the Great American Recovery. Melissa Lavasani: And, um, they're dedicating a hundred million dollars towards treating addiction as like a chronic treatable disease and not necessarily a law enforcement issue. So, um, in that initiative there will be federal grant programs for prevention and treatment and recovery. And, um, while this isn't just for psychedelic medicines, uh, I think it's a really great opportunity for the discussion of psychedelics to get elevated to the White House. Melissa Lavasani: Um, [00:37:00] there's also, previous to this announcement last week from the White House, there's been a hundred million dollars that was dedicated at, um, at ARPA h, which is. The advanced research projects, uh, agency for healthcare, um, and that is kind of an agency that's really focused on forward looking, um, treatments and technologies, uh, for, um, a, a whole slew of. Melissa Lavasani: Of issues, but this a hundred million dollars is dedicated to mental health and addiction. So there's a lot of opportunity there as well. So we, while I think, you know, some people are talking about, oh, we need a executive order on Iboga, it's like, well, you know, the, the president is thinking, um, about, you know, what issues can land with his, uh, voting block. Melissa Lavasani: And I think it's, I don't think we necessarily need a specific executive order on Iboga to call this a success. It's like, let's look at what, [00:38:00] um, what's just been announced from the White House. They're, they're all in on. Thinking creatively and finding, uh, new solutions for this. And this is kind of, this aligns with, um, HHS secretaries, uh, Robert F. Melissa Lavasani: Kennedy Junior's goals when he took on this, this role of Health Secretary. Um, addiction has been a discussion that, you know, he has personal, um, a personal tie to from his own experience. And, um, I think when this administration started, there was so much like fervor around the, the dialogue of like, everyone's talking about psychedelics. Melissa Lavasani: It was Secretary Kennedy, it was, uh, secretary Collins at the va. It was FDA Commissioner Marty Macari. And I think that there's like a lot of undue frustration within folks 'cause um, you don't necessarily snap your fingers and change happens in Washington dc This is not the city for that. And it's intentionally designed to move slow so that we can avoid really big mistakes. Melissa Lavasani: Um. [00:39:00] I think we're a year into this administration and these two announcements are, are pretty huge considering, um, you know, the, we, there are known people within domestic policy council that don't, aren't necessarily supportive of psychedelic medicine. So there's a really amazing progress here, and frustrating as it might be to, um, just be waiting for this administration to make some major move. Melissa Lavasani: I think they are making major moves like for Washington, DC These, these are major moves and we just gotta figure out how we can, um, take these initiatives and apply them to the issue of psychedelic medicines. Joe Moore: Thanks, Melissa. Um, yeah, it is, it is interesting like the amount of fervor there was at the beginning. You know, we had, uh. Kind of one of my old lawyers, Matt Zorn, jumped in with the administration. Right. And, um, you know, it was, uh, really cool to [00:40:00] see and hopeful how much energy was going on. It's been a little quiet, kind of feels like a black box a little bit, but I, you know, there was, Melissa Lavasani: that's on me. Melissa Lavasani: Maybe I, we need to be more out in public about like, what's actually happening, because I feel like, like day in and day out, it's just been, you gotta just mm-hmm. Like have that constant beat with the government. Mm-hmm. And, um, it's, it's, it's not the photo ops on the hill, it's the conversations that you have. Melissa Lavasani: It's the dinner parties you go to, it's the fundraisers you attend, you know? Mm-hmm. That's why I, I kind of have to like toot my own horn with PCs. Like, we need to be present here at, at not only on the Hill, not only at the White House, but kind of in the ecosystem of Washington DC itself. There's, it's, there are like power players here. Melissa Lavasani: There are people that are connected that can get things done, like. I mean, the other last week we had a big snow storm. I walked over to my friend's house, um, to have like a little fire sesh with them and our kids, and his next door neighbor came over. He was a member of Congress. I talked about the VA bills, like [00:41:00] we're reaching out to his office now, um, to get them, um, up to speed and hopefully get their co-sponsorship for, uh, the two VA bills. Melissa Lavasani: So, I mean, it, the little conversations you have here are just as important as the big ones with the photo ops. So, um, it, it's, it's really like, you know, building up that momentum and, and finding that time where you can really strike and make something happen. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jay, anything to add there? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I was just gonna say that, you know, I, I, I think the fervor is still there, right? Jay Kopelman: But real life happens. Melissa Lavasani: Yes, Jay Kopelman: yes. And gets in the way, right? So, Melissa Lavasani: yeah, Jay Kopelman: I, I can't imagine how many issues. Secretary Kennedy has every day much less the president. Like there's so many things that they are dealing with on a daily basis, right? It, we, we just have to work to be the squeaky wheel in, in the right way, right. Jay Kopelman: [00:42:00] With the, with the right information at the right time. Like just inundating one of these organizations with noise, it's then it be with Informa, it just becomes noise, right? It it, it doesn't help. So when we have things to say that are meaningful and impactful, we do, and Melissa does an amazing job of that. Jay Kopelman: But, you know, it, it takes time. You know, it's, you know, we're not, this is, this is like turning an aircraft carrier, not a ski boat. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Um, and. It's, it's understandably frustrating, I think for the public and the psychedelic public in particular because we see all this hope, you know, we continue to get frustrated at politics. It's nothing new, right? Um, and we, we wanna see more people get well immediately. [00:43:00] And I, I kind of, Jay from the veteran perspective, I do love the kind of loud voices like, you're making me go to Mexico for this. Joe Moore: I did that and you're making me leave the country for the thing that's gonna fix me. Like, no way. And barely a recognition that this is a valid treatment. You know, like, you know, that is complicated given how medicine is structured here domestically. But it's also, let's face the facts, like the drug war kind of prevented us from being able to do this research in the first place. Joe Moore: You know? Thanks Nixon. And like, how do we actually kind of correct course and say like, we need to spend appropriately on science here so we can heal our own people, including veterans and everybody really. It's a, it's a dire situation out there. Jay Kopelman: Yeah. It, it really is. Um, you know, we were talking briefly about addicts, right? Jay Kopelman: And you know, it's not sexy. People think of addicts as people who are weak-minded, [00:44:00] right? They don't have any self-control. Um, but, but look at, look at the opioid crisis, right? That Brian Hubbard was fighting against in Kentucky for all those years. That that was something that was given to the patient by a doctor that they then became dependent on, and a lot of people died from that. Jay Kopelman: And, and so you, you know, it's, I I don't think it's fair to just put all addicts in a box. Just like it's not fair to put all veterans in a box. Just like it's not fair for doctors, put all their patients in a box. We're individuals. We, we have individual needs. Our, our health is very individual. Like, I, I don't think I should be put in the same box as every other 66-year-old that my doctor sees. Jay Kopelman: It's not fair. [00:45:00] You know, if you, if you took my high school classmates and put us all in a photo, we're all gonna have different needs, right? Like, some look like they're 76, not 66. Some look like they're 56. Not like they're, we, we do things differently. We live our lives differently. And the same is true of addicts. Jay Kopelman: They come to addiction from different places. Not everybody decides they want to just try heroin at a party, and all of a sudden they're addicted. It happens in, in different ways, you know, and the whole fentanyl thing has been so daggum nefarious, right? You know, pushing fentanyl into marijuana. Jay Kopelman: Somebody's smoking a joint and all of a sudden they're addicted to fentanyl or they die. Melissa Lavasani: I think we're having a, Jay Kopelman: it's, it's just not fair to, to say everybody in this pot is the same, or everybody in this one is the same. We have [00:46:00] to look at it differently. Joe Moore: Yeah. I like to zoom one level out and kind of talk about, um, just how hurt we are as a country, as a world really, but as a country specifically, and how many people are out of work for so many. Joe Moore: Difficult reasons and away from their families for so many kind of tragic reasons. And if we can get people back to their families and back to work, a lot of these things start to self-correct, but we have to like have those interventions where we can heal folks and, and get them back. Um, yeah. And you know, everything from trauma, uh, in childhood, you know, adulthood, combat, whatever it is. Joe Moore: Like these things can put people on the sidelines. And Jay, to your point, like you get knee surgery and all of a sudden you're, you know, two years later you're on the hunt for Fentanyl daily. You know, that's tough. It's really tough. Carl Hart does a good job talking about this kind of addiction pipeline and [00:47:00] a few others do as well. Joe Moore: But it's just, you know, kind of putting it in a moral failure bucket. It's not great. I was chatting with somebody about, um, veterans, it's like you come back and you're like, what's gonna make me feel okay right now? And it's not always alcohol. Um, like this is the first thing that made me feel okay, because there's not great treatments and there's, there's a lot of improvements in this kind of like bringing people back from the field that needs to happen. Joe Moore: In my opinion. I, it seems to be shared by a lot of people, but yeah, there's, it's, it's, IGA is gonna be great. It's gonna be really important. I really can't wait for it to be at scale appropriately, but there's a lot of other things we need to fix too, um, so that we can just, you know, not have so many people we need to, you know, spend so much money healing. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: Yeah. You ahead with that. We don't need the president to sign an executive order to automatically legalize Ibogaine. Right. But it would be nice if he would reschedule it so that [00:48:00] then then researchers could do this research on a larger scale. You know, we could, we could now get some real data that would show the efficacy. Jay Kopelman: And it could be done in a safe environment, you know? And, and so that would be, do Joe Moore: you have any kind of figures, like, like, I've been talking about this for a while, Jay. Like, does it drop the cost a lot of doing research when we deschedule things? Jay Kopelman: I, I would imagine so, because it'll drop the cost of accessing the medicines that are being researched. Jay Kopelman: Right? You, you would have buy-in from more organizations. You know, you might even have a pharma company that comes into this, you know, look at j and j with the ketamine, right? They have, they have a nasal spray version of ketamine that's doing very well. I mean, it's probably their, their biggest revenue [00:49:00] provider for them right now. Jay Kopelman: And, and so. You know, you, it would certainly help and I think, I think it would lower costs of research to have something rescheduled rather than being schedule one. You know it, people are afraid to take chances when you're talking about Schedule one Melissa Lavasani: labs or they just don't have the money to research things that are on Schedule one. Melissa Lavasani: 'cause there's so much in an incredible amount of red tape that you have to go through and, and your facility has to be a certain way and how you contain those, uh, medicines. Oh, researching has to be in a specific container and it's just very cumbersome to research schedule one drugs. So absolutely the cost would go down. Melissa Lavasani: Um, but Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Less safes. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Joe Moore: Yes. Less uh, Melissa Lavasani: right. Joe Moore: Locked. Yeah. Um, it'll be really interesting when that happens. I'm gonna hold out faith. That we can see some [00:50:00] movement here. Um, because yeah, like why make healing more expensive than it needs to be? I think like that's potentially a protectionist move. Joe Moore: Like, I'm not, I'm not here yet, but, um, look at AbbVie's, uh, acquisition of the Gilgamesh ip. Mm-hmm. Like that's a really interesting move. I think it was $1.2 billion. Mm-hmm. So they're gonna wanna protect that investment. Um, and it's likely going to be an approved medication. Like, I don't, I don't see a world in which it's not an approved medication. Joe Moore: Um, you know, I don't know a timeline, I would say Jay Kopelman: yeah. Joe Moore: Less than six years, just given how much cash they've got. But who knows, like, I haven't followed it too closely. So, and that's an I bga derivative to be clear, everybody, um mm-hmm. If you're not, um, in, in the loop on that, which is hopeful, you know? Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. But I don't know what the efficacy is gonna be with that compared to Ibogaine and then we have to talk about the kind of proprietary molecule stuff. Um, there's like a whole bunch of things that are gonna go on here, and this is one of the reasons why I'm excited about. Federal involvement [00:51:00] because we might actually be able to have some sort of centralized manufacturer, um, or at least the VA could license three or four generic manufacturers per for instance, and that way prices aren't gonna be, you know, eight grand a dose or whatever. Joe Moore: You know, it's, Jay Kopelman: well, I think it's a very exciting time in the space. You know, I, I think that there's the opportunity for innovation. There is the opportunity for collaboration. There's the opportunity for, you know, long-term healing at a very low cost. You know, that we, we have the highest healthcare cost per capita in the world right here in the us. Jay Kopelman: And, and yet we are not the number one health system in the world. So to me, that doesn't add up. So we need to figure out a way to start. Bringing costs down for a lot of people and [00:52:00] at the same time increasing, increasing outcomes. Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of possible outcome improvements here and, and you know, everything from relapse rates, like we hear often about people leaving a clinic and they go and overdose when they get home. Tragically, too common. I think there's everything from, you know, I'm Jay, I'm involved in an organization called the Psychedelics and Pain Association. Joe Moore: We look at chronic pain very seriously, and IGA is something we are really interested in. And if. We could have better, you know, research, there better outcome measures there. Um, you know, perhaps we can have less people on opioids to begin with from chronic pain conditions. Um, Jay Kopelman: yeah, I, I might be due for another Ibogaine journey then, because I deal with chronic pain from Jiujitsu, but, Joe Moore: oh gosh, let's Jay Kopelman: talk Joe Moore: later. Jay Kopelman: That's self inflicted. Some people would say take a month off, but Melissa Lavasani: yeah, Jay Kopelman: I'm [00:53:00] not, I'm not that smart. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, but you know, this, uh, yeah, this whole thing is gonna be really interesting to see how it plays out. I'm endlessly hopeful pull because I'm still here. Right. I, I've been at this for almost 10 years now, very publicly, and I think we are seeing a lot of movement. Joe Moore: It's not always what we actually wanna see, but it is movement nonetheless. You know, how many people are writing on this now than there were before? Right. You know, we, we have people in New York Times writing somewhat regularly about psychedelics and. Even international media is covering it. What do we have legalization in Australia somewhat recently for psilocybin and MDMA, Czech Republic. Joe Moore: I think Germany made some moves recently. Mm-hmm. Um, really interesting to see how this is gonna just keep shifting. Um Jay Kopelman: mm-hmm. Joe Moore: And I think there's no way that we're not gonna have prescription psychedelics in three years in the United States. It pro probably more like a [00:54:00] year and a half. I don't know. Do you, are you all taking odds? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. I mean, I think Jay Kopelman: I, I gotta check Cal sheet, see what they're saying. Melissa Lavasani: I think it's safe to say, I mean, this could even come potentially the end of this year, I think, but definitely by the end of 2027, there's gonna be at least one psychedelic that's FDA approved. Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Lavasani: If you're not counting Ketamine. Joe Moore: Right. Jay Kopelman: I, I mean, I mean it mm-hmm. It, it doesn't make sense that it. Shouldn't be or wouldn't be. Right. The, we've seen the benefits. Mm-hmm. We know what they are. It's at a very low cost, but you have to keep in mind that these things, they need to be done with the right set setting and container. Right. And, and gotta be able to provide that environment. Jay Kopelman: So, but I would, I would love, like I said, I'd love to work myself out of a job here and see this happen, not just for our veterans, [00:55:00] but for everybody. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, so Melissa, is there a way people can get involved or follow PMC or how can they support your work at PMC? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, follow us in social media. Melissa Lavasani: Um, our two biggest platforms are LinkedIn and Instagram. Um, I'm bringing my newsletter back because I'm realizing, um, you know, there is a big gap in, in kind of like the knowledge of Washington DC just in general. What's happening here, and I think, you know, part of PC's value is that we're, we are plugged into conversations that are being had, um, here in the city. Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, we do get a little insight. Um, and I think that that would really quiet a lot of, you know, the, a lot of noise that, um, exists in the, our ecosystem. If, if people just had some clarity on like, what's actually happening or happening here and what are the opportunities and, [00:56:00] um, where do we need more reinforcement? Melissa Lavasani: Um, and, and also, you know, as we're putting together public education campaign, you know. My, like, if I could get everything I wanted like that, that campaign would be this like multi-stakeholder collaborative effort, right? Where we're covering all the ground that we need to cover. We're talking to the patient groups, we're talking to traditional mental health organizations, we're talking to the medical community, we're talking to the general population. Melissa Lavasani: I think that's like another area that we, we just seem to be, um, lacking some effort in. And, you know, ultimately the veteran story's always super compelling. It pulls on your heartstrings. These are our heroes, um, of our country. Like that, that is, that is meaningful. But a lot of the veteran population is small and we need the, like a, the just.[00:57:00] Melissa Lavasani: Basic American living in middle America, um, understanding what psychedelics are so that in, in, in presenting to them the stories that they can relate to, um, because that's how you activate the public and you activate the public and you get them to see what's happening in these clinical trials, what the data's been saying, what the opportunities are with psychedelics, and then they start calling their members of Congress and saying, Hey, there is this. Melissa Lavasani: Bill sitting in Congress and why haven't you signed onto it? And that political pressure, uh, when used the right way can be really powerful. So, um, I think, you know, now we're at this really amazing moment where we have a good amount of congressional offices that are familiar enough with psychedelics that they're willing to move on it. Melissa Lavasani: Um, there's another larger group, uh, that is familiar with psychedelics and will assist and co-sponsor legislation, but there's still so many offices that we haven't been able to get to just 'cause like we don't have all the time in the world and all the manpower in the world to [00:58:00] do it. But, you know, that is one avenue is like the advocates can speak to the, the lawmakers, the experts speak to the lawmakers, and we not, we want the public engaged in this, you know, ultimately, like that's. Melissa Lavasani: Like the best form of harm reduction is having an informed public. So we are not, they're not seeing these media headlines of like, oh, this miracle cure that, um, saved my family. It's like, yes, that can happen psychedelics. I mean, person speaking personally, psychedelics did save my family. But what you miss out of that story is the incredible amount of work I put into myself and put into my mental health to this day to maintain, um, like myself, my, my own agency and like be the parent that I wanna be and be the spouse that I wanna be. Melissa Lavasani: So, um, we, we need to continue to share these stories and we need to continue to collaborate to get this message out because we're all, we're all in the same boat right now. We all want the same things. We want patients to have safe and [00:59:00] affordable access to psychedelic assisted care. Um, and, uh. We're just in the beginning here, so, um, sign up for our newsletter and we can sign up on our website and then follow us on social media. Melissa Lavasani: And, um, I anticipate more and more events, um, happening with PMC and hopefully we can scale up some of these events to be much more public facing, um, as this issue grows. So, um, I'm really excited about the future and I'm, I've been enjoying this partnership with Mission Within. Jay is such a professional and, and it really shows up when he needs to show up and, um, I look forward to more of that in the future. Joe Moore: Fantastic. And Jay, how can people follow along and support mission within Foundation? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, again, social media is gonna be a good way to do that. So we, we are also pretty heavily engaged on LinkedIn and on Instagram. Um, I do [01:00:00] share, uh, a bit of my own stuff as well. On social media. So we have social media pages for Mission within Foundation, and we have a LinkedIn page for mission within foundation. Jay Kopelman: I have my own profiles on both of those as well where people can follow along. Um, one of the other things you know that would probably help get more attention for this is if the general public was more aware of the numbers of professional athletes who are also now pursuing. I began specifically to help treat their traumatic brain injuries and the chronic traumatic encephalopathy that they've, uh, suffered as a result of their time in professional sports or even college sports. Jay Kopelman: And, you know. I people worship these athletes, and I [01:01:00] think that if more of them, like Robert Gall, were more outspoken about these treatments and the healing properties that they've provided them, that it would get even more attention. Um, I think though what Melissa said, you know, I don't wanna parrot anything she just said because she said it perfectly Right. Jay Kopelman: And I'd just be speaking to hear myself talk. Um, but being collaborative the way that we are with PMC and with Melissa is I think, the way to move the needle on this overall. And like she said, if she could get more groups involved in, in these discussions, it would, it would do wonders for us. Joe Moore: Well, thank you both so much for your hard work out there. I always appreciate it when people are showing up and doing this important, [01:02:00] sometimes boring and tedious, but nevertheless sometimes, sometimes exciting work. And um, so yeah, just thank you both and thank you both for showing up here to psychedelics today to join us and I hope we can continue to support you all in the future. Jay Kopelman: Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure being with you today and with Melissa, of course, always Melissa Lavasani: appreciate the time and space. Joe Moore: Thanks.  

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The PESO Model has been guiding smart communications strategies for over a decade, but the tactical landscape underneath it keeps shifting. In the latest evolution, Gini and her team have completely revamped the PESO Model Certification to address how AI and large language models are fundamentally changing visibility in 2026. In this episode, Chip interviews Gini about the newly updated certification and what’s changed in how organizations should think about paid, earned, shared, and owned media. The conversation centers on “visibility engineering”—the intersection of owned and earned media where LLMs are scraping information and making decisions about who appears in AI-generated answers. Gini explains why owned media remains the foundation (without content on your own properties, there’s nothing to demonstrate to journalists, creators, or LLMs what you’re about), but the recommended path has shifted from owned-then-earned-or-shared to a more deliberate owned-then-earned-then-shared-then-paid sequence. This evolution reflects how AI systems verify information by comparing what’s on your website against what credible third parties say about you. They also tackle the persistent “X is dead” headlines that plague the industry—whether it’s websites, PR, or press releases. Chip and Gini push back hard on the notion that websites are becoming irrelevant, pointing out that your owned content hub becomes more valuable in an AI-driven world, not less. It’s your source of truth, the fuel for custom AI assistants, and the foundation that persists even as social platforms come and go. The conversation covers practical questions about implementing PESO in smaller agencies, whether you need to be full-service to deliver on all four pillars, and how the certification meets communicators at different experience levels—from college students to seasoned professionals. If you’ve been treating PESO as just four columns of tactics rather than an operating system for communications, this episode clarifies what you’re missing. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Owned is still the foundation because without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different.” Chip Griffin: “In a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing.” Gini Dietrich: “We are in a zero click world. And so how does that affect the work that we’re doing? It’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up no matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information.” Chip Griffin: “Having your content in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos because that is the fuel for that tool.” Turn ideas into action Audit where your owned content actually lives. Open a spreadsheet and list every place you’ve published content over the past two years—your website, Medium, Substack, LinkedIn articles, guest posts, anywhere. Mark which platforms you own versus rent. This awareness exercise reveals how vulnerable your content strategy is to platform changes and algorithm shifts. Map one content piece through all four PESO pillars. Take your next webinar, speaking engagement, or major thought leadership piece and plan the full PESO path before you execute: owned content on your site summarizing key insights, pitching earned media opportunities based on those insights, creating social distribution that doesn’t just promote but educates, and identifying where paid amplification makes strategic sense. This forces you to think about PESO as an integrated operating system rather than disconnected tactics. Dive deeper into the PESO Model. Visit spinsucks.com/peso-model-certification to learn more about the newly updated certification program. Whether you’re looking to formalize your team’s approach to integrated communications or simply understand how the model has evolved for the AI era, the certification provides a structured path from foundational concepts through practical implementation. Resources For more on the PESO model, visit the Spin Sucks website Related Agencies need the PESO model now more than ever Has the PESO Model become a necessity for modern agencies? How PR agencies can use the PESO Model to improve client retention How to allocate your client's PESO budget Wake up or get left behind: AI is forcing your hand View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, I’ve heard that you might be involved with this thing, I think it’s called the PESO Model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, maybe. Chip Griffin: You may you use that, right? That’s, yeah. Just you found it and you said this should, this is something we should use. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Something I just found and thought we should use it. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah, no, in all fairness, you are in fact the inventor of the PESO model, which is widely used throughout the PR and communications world, and it has been evolving with the times as we all should be. And so I, I think we have some, some new news that you’ve been sharing around the PESO model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, well, according to a couple of people on the internet, it has not evolved at all because they are not able to use Google or AI to say, has the PESO model evolved since 2014? Perhaps. It has. And you know, all of last year I spent a good amount of time, especially on the blog and the Spin Sucks podcast, talking about visibility engineering, which is where owned and earned media meet because that’s where the LLMs are getting their information, right. We’re finding more and more that they’re scrubbing websites and then they’re comparing that to earned media, to the things that media not, and not just traditional media, newsletters, podcasts, things like that, that they’re saying about the brand and looking to see if they match. And if they do, then they’re appearing. You’re, you start to appear in AI answers. So I spent a good amount of time last year exploring that and understanding that and, you know, using the blog and the podcast as my sandbox to learn more about it and teach the industry about it and understand what was happening. As part of that, I said, okay, it’s time to do a big refresh of the certification. Because we did the certification in 2020 and then we did a small update to it in 2024. And this one is a completely revamped certification that shows you how exactly AI is… how exactly you’re showing up in AI answers and doing that via the PESO model. So we start with owned, we go to earned, then we use shared and paid. There’s integration and measurement and it brings it all together. So I’m actually, I said to my team, not to brag, but this is really good. It’s a really, really good course. And we hired, last March I hired a chief learning officer who has helped me build it into something that’s more effective for an adult learner. So it’s really specific to, you know, you can get the work done while you’re also a working professional. So she has done a really nice job of bringing that element into it. It has AI prompts so that you can use the PESO AI that we built to help you do the work. And it’s, it’s pretty good. I’m, I’m really proud of it. I’m really proud of the work we did. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, it really is something that, that fuels most communication thinking in smart organizations today, whether that’s agency side, client side, that sort of thing. Now it’s not always as well understood it should be. Some people just throw the term around. A little bit willy-nilly. Yes. You know, without really thinking it through. Of course there are other people who claim that it’s also their invention, which is, you know, but we’re not gonna go down that path ’cause we’re staying positive today, Gini. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. We’re gonna stay positive. Positive, yes. Chip Griffin: But I think to, you know, to me, one of the things that, when I look at the PESO model, I think is, you know, it’s great because it is an overall set of principles and framework that is effectively timeless when it comes to communications. And then it’s the implementation side of it. The tactical side of it. That’s the piece that needs to evolve. The, I mean, the four letters are still the same. It’s not like you, right? Yes. The evolution has not been to change PESO to something else. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: It, it’s really just saying. Okay. All of these different components, the paid, earned, shared, and owned have evolved over the last 10 or 15 years. Yeah. And so how we implement it needs to adapt to that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It’s very much, I mean, when we did it in 2020, it was very much like how, how you’re using content marketing really to inform your contributed content through earned and then sharing that link through, through social and then putting some money behind it to boost it. And that was, you know, that was six years ago, and it worked back then, right? It’s still, social still worked from the perspective that you could post a link and people would follow that path back to your website. Well, people don’t do that anymore. You know, we are in a zero click world. And so how do, how does that affect the work that we’re doing? So, you’re right, the paid, earned, shared, and owned doesn’t change. That model stays the same. It’s the pieces on top that, that have evolved. And so now it’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up. No matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information, we show up no matter what. And it’s really, that’s what it’s really about is how do you engineer that visibility? How do you make sure that you’re showing up in the right places at the right time to the right people? Chip Griffin: And so if you’re, if you’re thinking about leaning into the PESO model for your communications needs. You know, where should you be starting today? Is it owned? Is it social? Is it, you know, how, has it changed? If at all from that standpoint over the last decade? Gini Dietrich: Owned is still the foundation because without anything, without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different. So that’s the foundation. There’s nothing do than to just create that distribution layer through shared, and there’s certainly nothing to amplify through paid. So that’s always been the foundation. There are of course exceptions if you’re selling widgets or your, you have an Amazon store or something like that, then I would probably start with paid, but that’s the exception to the rule. For the most part, most organizations need to start with owned. And we used to say that then you could go to earned or shared. Depending on your goals. Now we’re saying actually the best path for engineering that visibility is owned, then earned because you need that credibility, so the LLMs can cite that information. Then you build your distribution layer, and then you amplify your work. Chip Griffin: So I, think what I’m hearing you say is that websites are not dead despite all of these, you know, headlines that you like to see people’s, Gini Dietrich: No, they are not. Chip Griffin: The, the rise of LLM, websites are dead. You’re not even gonna need a website in five years. Gini Dietrich: No, we still need a website because otherwise the LLMs don’t have anywhere to get the information about you. Humans don’t have any, I mean, we still go to websites. We might not go, you know, a direct click like we used to, but we still go to websites to get information. So yeah, you still need a website. I hate the, such and such is dead. The PR, there’s one that PR is dead right now. Like PR is not dead. Come on. You can’t do, you’re not going to show up in AI answers if without PR. So PR is not dead. Chip Griffin: No, the X is dead has always been one of my pet peeves when it comes to, I mean, that, that really is something that, that took off during the start of the social media era. Yeah. Whether it was the press release is dead. This is dead, whatever. I mean, and, you know. Just, it’s not true. I mean, we, you know, I always used to say back 20 years ago, you know, people used to say that radio was dead. Radio is still very much around, and radio is still around in certain forms. I mean, when I’m driving around, I listen to radio. Yes. Is it terrestrial radio? No, it’s satellite radio. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: But guess what? It’s still radio. Gini Dietrich: It’s still radio. Yep. Chip Griffin: Right. Podcasts are effectively radio. Transmitted in a different fashion. Yep. And so, you know, I think that the people need to understand that the underlying technology may evolve, some of the tools will evolve, but Gini Dietrich: absolutely Chip Griffin: the, principles and concepts will largely remain the same. Doesn’t mean that everything stays. Yeah, certainly some things, you know, do go away, or become so small that they’re irrelevant, but you know, I think we need to be careful about those things. And, to me, with a website, to me, the other value is it still is a great place to be the central repository of all your information as all of these things change around you. I mean, if, for the last 10 or 15 years you’ve been using your website as your content hub and housing at least your most important, most valuable stuff there, it doesn’t matter whether medium or substack comes or goes. It doesn’t matter whether people move from X to LinkedIn to whatever. Yep. You still have a source of truth for your own information, which becomes even more valuable in the world of AI and LLMs. Gini Dietrich: That’s exactly right. I mean, we, have preached for years, we’ve all preached for years that you should not build an audience or content on rented land because to exactly your point, the rented land goes away. X has become something that nobody wants to hang out on. We’ve moved to LinkedIn. Lots of people have moved to Substack. So, those pieces will change. So don’t, I think that theory, philosophy stays the same. Because you have, you are building something that you own, that you control, and allows you to control that narrative and be, tell the story the way you want to, and then you rent that out to other places versus building on rented land where it will go away. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think that there are a lot of avenues that are opening up to organizations with, you know, particularly those that have more content already, but also by building it up. And I think in particular of the AI assistant I built on the SAGA website. Mm-hmm. Yep. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos and that kind of stuff because that is the fuel for that tool. Yep. And, and if I was trying to do it based off of, see what you can find that I’ve posted on LinkedIn or Twitter or things over the years, and it’s just not gonna work. And so having that in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. I was talking to a client last week and she said that one of the goals for 2026 is they have 17 different brands. So each brand has its own chief executive. And what she has, what she wants, the comms team for each of those brands to do is build an AI agent that helps them with that CEO’s voice. And they can’t do that without content. They can’t do it without the executives’ speeches, webinars, podcasts, appearances, media relations, like they have to have all of that content, blog posts that they’ve written or articles that they’ve written for the website. They have to have that to be able to feed that and train the AI. So without it, they don’t have any, to your point, fuel that will allow them to do that. So 100% that is accurate. Chip Griffin: So as, we’re thinking about implementing PESO properly, so not just, I heard the term, it sounds cool. I made a list of four columns of each, and I just started just chucking stuff in there. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: I mean, how do I go about learning it the right way? And I’m, you know, we’re not turning this into a QVC Gini Dietrich: Are you throwing me a softball? Chip Griffin: you know, show here. But at the same time, I, think it is valuable for people to understand what is out there in a more formal sense, to understand and, adopt the process for their own organization. Gini Dietrich: I mean, obviously the PESO model certification is the place to get the information because one of the, one of the things we see is exactly what you said, that people create their four columns and they say, okay, well we’ve got some content and we’re doing some media relations, and we’re throwing that on social. And all right, we’ll put some, budget behind some of our organic social, and we’ve got the PESO model. And that’s, not the PESO model, that’s a list of tactics. So what the certification does is it walks you through exactly. There’s this, a scientific layer to it. It walks you through that scientific layer that allows you to embed an operating system, that let that foundation of your work so that as things evolve and the industry changes and your business goals change, you’re able to change the tactics on top of it. We also hear, well, gosh, my, you know, my clients can’t afford to do a full PESO program, so what should I do? And in fact, they can afford it. You’re just thinking about it as this huge, overwhelming thing. And so the certification walks you through if you’re a solopreneur or a small agency, that walks you through if you’re a midsize, and it walks you through if you’re a large corporation or an enterprise organization. And I will say for small organizations, which are most of our listeners. It’s really about how do you take one piece of content and repurpose it. So let’s say that you do a webinar. How do you take that webinar and create some content around it that, from what the webinar was, not promoting it, not trying to get registrations, but saying, okay, here’s what we learned in the webinar. So we’re gonna create some how-to or thoughtful content for that. And then we’re gonna take pieces of the webinar and we’re gonna break it down for social posts. And then yeah, we’re gonna put some money behind some of it. And we’re also gonna go to some of our trade media and we’re gonna say, Hey, listen, our subject matter expert or our chief executive just did this webinar and here’s what they talked about. Are you interested in some contributed content? So it allows you to do that in a really interesting, effective way without you having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or have a large team. You can do it without a lot of resources. I mean I built the PESO model framework for my agency and we were not, at the time, a big agency. Mm-hmm. So that’s what it was built for, is to make it so that we could do more with less and do more with less resources and, less time and less people and less budget and all the things. So it is definitely, definitely feasible. So that’s what it teaches you how to do. Chip Griffin: So I, you know, I think one of the other concerns that, some particularly smaller agencies have when it comes to PESO is not just the, clients and their budget, but, their own capabilities and, you know, so is it realistic for a small agency to be able to, you know, deliver? We, we talk all the time about being careful about being a full service agency. Yep. But to, implement PESO, do you have to be a full service agency? Gini Dietrich: You do not. That’s the other thing that the certification walks you through is if you have the capability yourself in house. Or you yourself can do it. Then here’s how you do it. If you are building it for an external team or an external agency, here’s how you do it. If the client has a team that can do it, here’s what you’re going to do to build the strategy and the creative brief, and then you’ll hand it off. But here’s what is expected for. Here’s, what’s expected of you to deliver, and here’s what the expectation is for the output from the client team or the agency team, whatever happens to be. So it has those three paths depending on where you are. So yeah, that’s a really good point. It doesn’t the, certification expects you to, build the plan and the strategy, and then based on where you are, it meets you where you are. So if, you have a team that you can execute or that you can delegate it to, great. If your client has a team you can delegate it to great. But it meets you where you are so that you don’t have to be the expert, you don’t have to be the strategist, you don’t have to be the influencer, but you do have to build the plan and the strategic path to be able to help the team get there. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. Um, and I mean, let’s talk through some of the logistics around the certification. I mean, how long does it take to get certified? Is this, you know, I, do a weekend course and I’m done. Is it an ongoing process? Is it, you know, is it the equivalent of a master’s degree? I gonna spend two years with, you know, countless hours? What exactly does it look like? Gini Dietrich: It’s built to be done in eight weeks, but I will tell you that most working professionals do not do it that fast. I would say most working professionals do it between 10 and 12. Each module is, so you have the intro earned or owned, earned, shared, paid, integration, measurement, and then the operating system and how to embed that. So it’s eight modules and each module has between 6 and 12 lessons, and each lesson is like 8 to 10 minutes. So, you know, you’re looking at an hour to an hour and a half of learning of content and then you have the exercises for each lesson. So I would venture to guess it’s, you know, if you use the AI prompts effectively, that are in there, it’s between two to five hours a week probably. Chip Griffin: And, who is the certification best for? Is it someone who’s got, you know, prior experience, is this, Hey, I’m fresh outta college and I want to have this so I can use it to, you know, improve my, my job prospects. You know, what, kind of experience are they expected to have, or knowledge are they expected to have coming in? Gini Dietrich: It’s, we built it for any level of expertise. The interesting thing about it, of course, if you have more experience, it’s easier for you to grasp the concepts and implement it quickly. But we also use the certification in a hundred plus universities and the kids, the students go through it. So we find that they… It’s different for them because they have to use a fake business where you can use your own business or you can use your client’s business, right? They have to kind of create the business as they go. But it’s really fun to see what kinds of things come out of that. So it’s built for every level of expertise. It’s a different way of thinking about communications. So it’s not like you have to have 20 years of experience or only a year of experience. It’s because it’s teaching you something new. Chip Griffin: Gotcha. And is the, are the certifications only at the individual level? Are there agency certification programs? What exists in that frame? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, we’ve, that, that’s a great question that we evolved too. So it used to be, it was individual based and now we’ve built it so that you can put a team through it, you can put the whole agency through it. The certification itself goes with the individual because it comes through Syracuse University. So it is, so if you have a team member that you wanna put through it, if they leave the certification goes with them. So you cannot say that you do the PESO model anymore if they leave. So we always recommend, I mean, you know, I’m an agency owner, so I’d love to see the agency owner themselves go through it, but I also know that that’s not always doable. So, but if you want the certification to stay with your agency, that’s the way to do it. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. And it, you know, I guess as, we’re winding up here, you know, where do you see the, PESO model headed in, the years, you know, in front of us? I would assume it will continue to evolve. Does your crystal ball tell you anything about, you know, what that evolution will look like? Gini Dietrich: It will continue to evolve. I have not looked into my crystal ball yet because I’ve been so heads down deep into developing the content for this that I haven’t been able to forward think yet, but I’m very much looking forward to being able to go back to my regular job and, start to think about the future, but I’m not there yet. Chip Griffin: I, I, guess that’s fair. I guess asking you for the, next version before this version is even fully out in the wild may, Gini Dietrich: I’ve literally been like blinders on, heads down, creating all of this content. Chip Griffin: I had to try at least, you know, see if I could get the inside a scoop on where the industry is headed so that I can… Gini Dietrich: Ask me in a month. Chip Griffin: I can get there before everybody else, or at least before everybody else accept you. Alright. If someone, wants to learn more about the PESO model or the certification or any of that kind of stuff, where’s, the best place for them to go for that? Gini Dietrich: I feel like we just did an interview. Chip Griffin: Well, that, that was not the intent going, but it made the most sense to me. And I, you know, me, I, follow the thread wherever it feels like it goes. That’s fair. Some of these were questions I actually didn’t know the answer to, so I thought I would ask them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Alright. spinsucks.com. There’s a PESO model certification page. I think it’s actually PESO-model-certification. Chip Griffin: You love your hyphens on that website. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know why it’s that way. That’s just what they do. Chip Griffin: Oh, well. Gini Dietrich: Ask our web firm. Chip Griffin: I’m, sure people can end up finding it. Gini Dietrich: PESO model certification. Spin sucks.com. Chip Griffin: There you go. Excellent. Well, I, think this was good information and I think we, you know, we do talk a lot about the importance of, you know, agencies continuing to adapt. Particularly in, in this age of AI. And, if we are standing still, you know, we are gonna lose our jobs to AI and the other enhancements and improvements that are out there. I think this is one of many ways that you can, make sure that you are not getting left behind and, so, certainly something that most agencies should be at the very least learning more about, if not actually directly implementing within their businesses. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah, and, like I said, it has AI baked in, so if you’re still on the fence about AI, it’s a good way to dip your toes in the water. Chip Griffin: And if you’re still on the fence on AI, why? Gini Dietrich: It’s so much fun! Chip Griffin: It really is. It can be a time suck at times, but it’s, yeah. It’s also fun and, frankly useful. I mean, I think that’s the… But anyway, that when this is not an AI show, this is a PESO show. Gini Dietrich: Right. So, right, right. Chip Griffin: We, will come back and bash you on AI again in the future. Not, you, but you the listener. You the listener. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Alright. With that we’ll wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Tickets for AIEi Miami and AIE Europe are live, with first wave speakers announced!From pioneering software-defined networking to backing many of the most aggressive AI model companies of this cycle, Martin Casado and Sarah Wang sit at the center of the capital, compute, and talent arms race reshaping the tech industry. As partners at a16z investing across infrastructure and growth, they've watched venture and growth blur, model labs turn dollars into capability at unprecedented speed, and startups raise nine-figure rounds before monetization.Martin and Sarah join us to unpack the new financing playbook for AI: why today's rounds are really compute contracts in disguise, how the “raise → train → ship → raise bigger” flywheel works, and whether foundation model companies can outspend the entire app ecosystem built on top of them. They also share what's underhyped (boring enterprise software), what's overheated (talent wars and compensation spirals), and the two radically different futures they see for AI's market structure.We discuss:* Martin's “two futures” fork: infinite fragmentation and new software categories vs. a small oligopoly of general models that consume everything above them* The capital flywheel: how model labs translate funding directly into capability gains, then into revenue growth measured in weeks, not years* Why venture and growth have merged: $100M–$1B hybrid rounds, strategic investors, compute negotiations, and complex deal structures* The AGI vs. product tension: allocating scarce GPUs between long-term research and near-term revenue flywheels* Whether frontier labs can out-raise and outspend the entire app ecosystem built on top of their APIs* Why today's talent wars ($10M+ comp packages, $B acqui-hires) are breaking early-stage founder math* Cursor as a case study: building up from the app layer while training down into your own models* Why “boring” enterprise software may be the most underinvested opportunity in the AI mania* Hardware and robotics: why the ChatGPT moment hasn't yet arrived for robots and what would need to change* World Labs and generative 3D: bringing the marginal cost of 3D scene creation down by orders of magnitude* Why public AI discourse is often wildly disconnected from boardroom reality and how founders should navigate the noiseShow Notes:* “Where Value Will Accrue in AI: Martin Casado & Sarah Wang” - a16z show* “Jack Altman & Martin Casado on the Future of Venture Capital”* World Labs—Martin Casado• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martincasado/• X: https://x.com/martin_casadoSarah Wang• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-wang-59b96a7• X: https://x.com/sarahdingwanga16z• https://a16z.com/Timestamps00:00:00 – Intro: Live from a16z00:01:20 – The New AI Funding Model: Venture + Growth Collide00:03:19 – Circular Funding, Demand & “No Dark GPUs”00:05:24 – Infrastructure vs Apps: The Lines Blur00:06:24 – The Capital Flywheel: Raise → Train → Ship → Raise Bigger00:09:39 – Can Frontier Labs Outspend the Entire App Ecosystem?00:11:24 – Character AI & The AGI vs Product Dilemma00:14:39 – Talent Wars, $10M Engineers & Founder Anxiety00:17:33 – What's Underinvested? The Case for “Boring” Software00:19:29 – Robotics, Hardware & Why It's Hard to Win00:22:42 – Custom ASICs & The $1B Training Run Economics00:24:23 – American Dynamism, Geography & AI Power Centers00:26:48 – How AI Is Changing the Investor Workflow (Claude Cowork)00:29:12 – Two Futures of AI: Infinite Expansion or Oligopoly?00:32:48 – If You Can Raise More Than Your Ecosystem, You Win00:34:27 – Are All Tasks AGI-Complete? Coding as the Test Case00:38:55 – Cursor & The Power of the App Layer00:44:05 – World Labs, Spatial Intelligence & 3D Foundation Models00:47:20 – Thinking Machines, Founder Drama & Media Narratives00:52:30 – Where Long-Term Power Accrues in the AI StackTranscriptLatent.Space - Inside AI's $10B+ Capital Flywheel — Martin Casado & Sarah Wang of a16z[00:00:00] Welcome to Latent Space (Live from a16z) + Meet the Guests[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast, live from a 16 z. Uh, this is Alessio founder Kernel Lance, and I'm joined by Twix, editor of Latent Space.[00:00:08] swyx: Hey, hey, hey. Uh, and we're so glad to be on with you guys. Also a top AI podcast, uh, Martin Cado and Sarah Wang. Welcome, very[00:00:16] Martin Casado: happy to be here and welcome.[00:00:17] swyx: Yes, uh, we love this office. We love what you've done with the place. Uh, the new logo is everywhere now. It's, it's still getting, takes a while to get used to, but it reminds me of like sort of a callback to a more ambitious age, which I think is kind of[00:00:31] Martin Casado: definitely makes a statement.[00:00:33] swyx: Yeah.[00:00:34] Martin Casado: Not quite sure what that statement is, but it makes a statement.[00:00:37] swyx: Uh, Martin, I go back with you to Netlify.[00:00:40] Martin Casado: Yep.[00:00:40] swyx: Uh, and, uh, you know, you create a software defined networking and all, all that stuff people can read up on your background. Yep. Sarah, I'm newer to you. Uh, you, you sort of started working together on AI infrastructure stuff.[00:00:51] Sarah Wang: That's right. Yeah. Seven, seven years ago now.[00:00:53] Martin Casado: Best growth investor in the entire industry.[00:00:55] swyx: Oh, say[00:00:56] Martin Casado: more hands down there is, there is. [00:01:00] I mean, when it comes to AI companies, Sarah, I think has done the most kind of aggressive, um, investment thesis around AI models, right? So, worked for Nom Ja, Mira Ia, FEI Fey, and so just these frontier, kind of like large AI models.[00:01:15] I think, you know, Sarah's been the, the broadest investor. Is that fair?[00:01:20] Venture vs. Growth in the Frontier Model Era[00:01:20] Sarah Wang: No, I, well, I was gonna say, I think it's been a really interesting tag, tag team actually just ‘cause the, a lot of these big C deals, not only are they raising a lot of money, um, it's still a tech founder bet, which obviously is inherently early stage.[00:01:33] But the resources,[00:01:36] Martin Casado: so many, I[00:01:36] Sarah Wang: was gonna say the resources one, they just grow really quickly. But then two, the resources that they need day one are kind of growth scale. So I, the hybrid tag team that we have is. Quite effective, I think,[00:01:46] Martin Casado: what is growth these days? You know, you don't wake up if it's less than a billion or like, it's, it's actually, it's actually very like, like no, it's a very interesting time in investing because like, you know, take like the character around, right?[00:01:59] These tend to [00:02:00] be like pre monetization, but the dollars are large enough that you need to have a larger fund and the analysis. You know, because you've got lots of users. ‘cause this stuff has such high demand requires, you know, more of a number sophistication. And so most of these deals, whether it's US or other firms on these large model companies, are like this hybrid between venture growth.[00:02:18] Sarah Wang: Yeah. Total. And I think, you know, stuff like BD for example, you wouldn't usually need BD when you were seed stage trying to get market biz Devrel. Biz Devrel, exactly. Okay. But like now, sorry, I'm,[00:02:27] swyx: I'm not familiar. What, what, what does biz Devrel mean for a venture fund? Because I know what biz Devrel means for a company.[00:02:31] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:02:32] Compute Deals, Strategics, and the ‘Circular Funding' Question[00:02:32] Sarah Wang: You know, so a, a good example is, I mean, we talk about buying compute, but there's a huge negotiation involved there in terms of, okay, do you get equity for the compute? What, what sort of partner are you looking at? Is there a go-to market arm to that? Um, and these are just things on this scale, hundreds of millions, you know, maybe.[00:02:50] Six months into the inception of a company, you just wouldn't have to negotiate these deals before.[00:02:54] Martin Casado: Yeah. These large rounds are very complex now. Like in the past, if you did a series A [00:03:00] or a series B, like whatever, you're writing a 20 to a $60 million check and you call it a day. Now you normally have financial investors and strategic investors, and then the strategic portion always still goes with like these kind of large compute contracts, which can take months to do.[00:03:13] And so it's, it's very different ties. I've been doing this for 10 years. It's the, I've never seen anything like this.[00:03:19] swyx: Yeah. Do you have worries about the circular funding from so disease strategics?[00:03:24] Martin Casado: I mean, listen, as long as the demand is there, like the demand is there. Like the problem with the internet is the demand wasn't there.[00:03:29] swyx: Exactly. All right. This, this is like the, the whole pyramid scheme bubble thing, where like, as long as you mark to market on like the notional value of like, these deals, fine, but like once it starts to chip away, it really Well[00:03:41] Martin Casado: no, like as, as, as, as long as there's demand. I mean, you know, this, this is like a lot of these sound bites have already become kind of cliches, but they're worth saying it.[00:03:47] Right? Like during the internet days, like we were. Um, raising money to put fiber in the ground that wasn't used. And that's a problem, right? Because now you actually have a supply overhang.[00:03:58] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:03:59] Martin Casado: And even in the, [00:04:00] the time of the, the internet, like the supply and, and bandwidth overhang, even as massive as it was in, as massive as the crash was only lasted about four years.[00:04:09] But we don't have a supply overhang. Like there's no dark GPUs, right? I mean, and so, you know, circular or not, I mean, you know, if, if someone invests in a company that, um. You know, they'll actually use the GPUs. And on the other side of it is the, is the ask for customer. So I I, I think it's a different time.[00:04:25] Sarah Wang: I think the other piece, maybe just to add onto this, and I'm gonna quote Martine in front of him, but this is probably also a unique time in that. For the first time, you can actually trace dollars to outcomes. Yeah, right. Provided that scaling laws are, are holding, um, and capabilities are actually moving forward.[00:04:40] Because if you can put translate dollars into capabilities, uh, a capability improvement, there's demand there to martine's point. But if that somehow breaks, you know, obviously that's an important assumption in this whole thing to make it work. But you know, instead of investing dollars into sales and marketing, you're, you're investing into r and d to get to the capability, um, you know, increase.[00:04:59] And [00:05:00] that's sort of been the demand driver because. Once there's an unlock there, people are willing to pay for it.[00:05:05] Alessio: Yeah.[00:05:06] Blurring Lines: Models as Infra + Apps, and the New Fundraising Flywheel[00:05:06] Alessio: Is there any difference in how you built the portfolio now that some of your growth companies are, like the infrastructure of the early stage companies, like, you know, OpenAI is now the same size as some of the cloud providers were early on.[00:05:16] Like what does that look like? Like how much information can you feed off each other between the, the two?[00:05:24] Martin Casado: There's so many lines that are being crossed right now, or blurred. Right. So we already talked about venture and growth. Another one that's being blurred is between infrastructure and apps, right? So like what is a model company?[00:05:35] Mm-hmm. Like, it's clearly infrastructure, right? Because it's like, you know, it's doing kind of core r and d. It's a horizontal platform, but it's also an app because it's um, uh, touches the users directly. And then of course. You know, the, the, the growth of these is just so high. And so I actually think you're just starting to see a, a, a new financing strategy emerge and, you know, we've had to adapt as a result of that.[00:05:59] And [00:06:00] so there's been a lot of changes. Um, you're right that these companies become platform companies very quickly. You've got ecosystem build out. So none of this is necessarily new, but the timescales of which it's happened is pretty phenomenal. And the way we'd normally cut lines before is blurred a little bit, but.[00:06:16] But that, that, that said, I mean, a lot of it also just does feel like things that we've seen in the past, like cloud build out the internet build out as well.[00:06:24] Sarah Wang: Yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's interesting, uh, I don't know if you guys would agree with this, but it feels like the emerging strategy is, and this builds off of your other question, um.[00:06:33] You raise money for compute, you pour that or you, you pour the money into compute, you get some sort of breakthrough. You funnel the breakthrough into your vertically integrated application. That could be chat GBT, that could be cloud code, you know, whatever it is. You massively gain share and get users.[00:06:49] Maybe you're even subsidizing at that point. Um, depending on your strategy. You raise money at the peak momentum and then you repeat, rinse and repeat. Um, and so. And that wasn't [00:07:00] true even two years ago, I think. Mm-hmm. And so it's sort of to your, just tying it to fundraising strategy, right? There's a, and hiring strategy.[00:07:07] All of these are tied, I think the lines are blurring even more today where everyone is, and they, but of course these companies all have API businesses and so they're these, these frenemy lines that are getting blurred in that a lot of, I mean, they have billions of dollars of API revenue, right? And so there are customers there.[00:07:23] But they're competing on the app layer.[00:07:24] Martin Casado: Yeah. So this is a really, really important point. So I, I would say for sure, venture and growth, that line is blurry app and infrastructure. That line is blurry. Um, but I don't think that that changes our practice so much. But like where the very open questions are like, does this layer in the same way.[00:07:43] Compute traditionally has like during the cloud is like, you know, like whatever, somebody wins one layer, but then another whole set of companies wins another layer. But that might not, might not be the case here. It may be the case that you actually can't verticalize on the token string. Like you can't build an app like it, it necessarily goes down just because there are no [00:08:00] abstractions.[00:08:00] So those are kinda the bigger existential questions we ask. Another thing that is very different this time than in the history of computer sciences is. In the past, if you raised money, then you basically had to wait for engineering to catch up. Which famously doesn't scale like the mythical mammoth. It take a very long time.[00:08:18] But like that's not the case here. Like a model company can raise money and drop a model in a, in a year, and it's better, right? And, and it does it with a team of 20 people or 10 people. So this type of like money entering a company and then producing something that has demand and growth right away and using that to raise more money is a very different capital flywheel than we've ever seen before.[00:08:39] And I think everybody's trying to understand what the consequences are. So I think it's less about like. Big companies and growth and this, and more about these more systemic questions that we actually don't have answers to.[00:08:49] Alessio: Yeah, like at Kernel Labs, one of our ideas is like if you had unlimited money to spend productively to turn tokens into products, like the whole early stage [00:09:00] market is very different because today you're investing X amount of capital to win a deal because of price structure and whatnot, and you're kind of pot committing.[00:09:07] Yeah. To a certain strategy for a certain amount of time. Yeah. But if you could like iteratively spin out companies and products and just throw, I, I wanna spend a million dollar of inference today and get a product out tomorrow.[00:09:18] swyx: Yeah.[00:09:19] Alessio: Like, we should get to the point where like the friction of like token to product is so low that you can do this and then you can change the Right, the early stage venture model to be much more iterative.[00:09:30] And then every round is like either 100 k of inference or like a hundred million from a 16 Z. There's no, there's no like $8 million C round anymore. Right.[00:09:38] When Frontier Labs Outspend the Entire App Ecosystem[00:09:38] Martin Casado: But, but, but, but there's a, there's a, the, an industry structural question that we don't know the answer to, which involves the frontier models, which is, let's take.[00:09:48] Anthropic it. Let's say Anthropic has a state-of-the-art model that has some large percentage of market share. And let's say that, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, a company's building smaller models [00:10:00] that, you know, use the bigger model in the background, open 4.5, but they add value on top of that. Now, if Anthropic can raise three times more.[00:10:10] Every subsequent round, they probably can raise more money than the entire app ecosystem that's built on top of it. And if that's the case, they can expand beyond everything built on top of it. It's like imagine like a star that's just kind of expanding, so there could be a systemic. There could be a, a systemic situation where the soda models can raise so much money that they can out pay anybody that bills on top of ‘em, which would be something I don't think we've ever seen before just because we were so bottlenecked in engineering, and this is a very open question.[00:10:41] swyx: Yeah. It's, it is almost like bitter lesson applied to the startup industry.[00:10:45] Martin Casado: Yeah, a hundred percent. It literally becomes an issue of like raise capital, turn that directly into growth. Use that to raise three times more. Exactly. And if you can keep doing that, you literally can outspend any company that's built the, not any company.[00:10:57] You can outspend the aggregate of companies on top of [00:11:00] you and therefore you'll necessarily take their share, which is crazy.[00:11:02] swyx: Would you say that kind of happens in character? Is that the, the sort of postmortem on. What happened?[00:11:10] Sarah Wang: Um,[00:11:10] Martin Casado: no.[00:11:12] Sarah Wang: Yeah, because I think so,[00:11:13] swyx: I mean the actual postmortem is, he wanted to go back to Google.[00:11:15] Exactly. But like[00:11:18] Martin Casado: that's another difference that[00:11:19] Sarah Wang: you said[00:11:21] Martin Casado: it. We should talk, we should actually talk about that.[00:11:22] swyx: Yeah,[00:11:22] Sarah Wang: that's[00:11:23] swyx: Go for it. Take it. Take,[00:11:23] Sarah Wang: yeah.[00:11:24] Character.AI, Founder Goals (AGI vs Product), and GPU Allocation Tradeoffs[00:11:24] Sarah Wang: I was gonna say, I think, um. The, the, the character thing raises actually a different issue, which actually the Frontier Labs will face as well. So we'll see how they handle it.[00:11:34] But, um, so we invest in character in January, 2023, which feels like eons ago, I mean, three years ago. Feels like lifetimes ago. But, um, and then they, uh, did the IP licensing deal with Google in August, 2020. Uh, four. And so, um, you know, at the time, no, you know, he's talked publicly about this, right? He wanted to Google wouldn't let him put out products in the world.[00:11:56] That's obviously changed drastically. But, um, he went to go do [00:12:00] that. Um, but he had a product attached. The goal was, I mean, it's Nome Shair, he wanted to get to a GI. That was always his personal goal. But, you know, I think through collecting data, right, and this sort of very human use case, that the character product.[00:12:13] Originally was and still is, um, was one of the vehicles to do that. Um, I think the real reason that, you know. I if you think about the, the stress that any company feels before, um, you ultimately going one way or the other is sort of this a GI versus product. Um, and I think a lot of the big, I think, you know, opening eyes, feeling that, um, anthropic if they haven't started, you know, felt it, certainly given the success of their products, they may start to feel that soon.[00:12:39] And the real. I think there's real trade-offs, right? It's like how many, when you think about GPUs, that's a limited resource. Where do you allocate the GPUs? Is it toward the product? Is it toward new re research? Right? Is it, or long-term research, is it toward, um, n you know, near to midterm research? And so, um, in a case where you're resource constrained, um, [00:13:00] of course there's this fundraising game you can play, right?[00:13:01] But the fund, the market was very different back in 2023 too. Um. I think the best researchers in the world have this dilemma of, okay, I wanna go all in on a GI, but it's the product usage revenue flywheel that keeps the revenue in the house to power all the GPUs to get to a GI. And so it does make, um, you know, I think it sets up an interesting dilemma for any startup that has trouble raising up until that level, right?[00:13:27] And certainly if you don't have that progress, you can't continue this fly, you know, fundraising flywheel.[00:13:32] Martin Casado: I would say that because, ‘cause we're keeping track of all of the things that are different, right? Like, you know, venture growth and uh, app infra and one of the ones is definitely the personalities of the founders.[00:13:45] It's just very different this time I've been. Been doing this for a decade and I've been doing startups for 20 years. And so, um, I mean a lot of people start this to do a GI and we've never had like a unified North star that I recall in the same [00:14:00] way. Like people built companies to start companies in the past.[00:14:02] Like that was what it was. Like I would create an internet company, I would create infrastructure company, like it's kind of more engineering builders and this is kind of a different. You know, mentality. And some companies have harnessed that incredibly well because their direction is so obviously on the path to what somebody would consider a GI, but others have not.[00:14:20] And so like there is always this tension with personnel. And so I think we're seeing more kind of founder movement.[00:14:27] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:14:27] Martin Casado: You know, as a fraction of founders than we've ever seen. I mean, maybe since like, I don't know the time of like Shockly and the trade DUR aid or something like that. Way back in the beginning of the industry, I, it's a very, very.[00:14:38] Unusual time of personnel.[00:14:39] Sarah Wang: Totally.[00:14:40] Talent Wars, Mega-Comp, and the Rise of Acquihire M&A[00:14:40] Sarah Wang: And it, I think it's exacerbated by the fact that talent wars, I mean, every industry has talent wars, but not at this magnitude, right? No. Yeah. Very rarely can you see someone get poached for $5 billion. That's hard to compete with. And then secondly, if you're a founder in ai, you could fart and it would be on the front page of, you know, the information these days.[00:14:59] And so there's [00:15:00] sort of this fishbowl effect that I think adds to the deep anxiety that, that these AI founders are feeling.[00:15:06] Martin Casado: Hmm.[00:15:06] swyx: Uh, yes. I mean, just on, uh, briefly comment on the founder, uh, the sort of. Talent wars thing. I feel like 2025 was just like a blip. Like I, I don't know if we'll see that again.[00:15:17] ‘cause meta built the team. Like, I don't know if, I think, I think they're kind of done and like, who's gonna pay more than meta? I, I don't know.[00:15:23] Martin Casado: I, I agree. So it feels so, it feel, it feels this way to me too. It's like, it is like, basically Zuckerberg kind of came out swinging and then now he's kind of back to building.[00:15:30] Yeah,[00:15:31] swyx: yeah. You know, you gotta like pay up to like assemble team to rush the job, whatever. But then now, now you like you, you made your choices and now they got a ship.[00:15:38] Martin Casado: I mean, the, the o other side of that is like, you know, like we're, we're actually in the job hiring market. We've got 600 people here. I hire all the time.[00:15:44] I've got three open recs if anybody's interested, that's listening to this for investor. Yeah, on, on the team, like on the investing side of the team, like, and, um, a lot of the people we talk to have acting, you know, active, um, offers for 10 million a year or something like that. And like, you know, and we pay really, [00:16:00] really well.[00:16:00] And just to see what's out on the market is really, is really remarkable. And so I would just say it's actually, so you're right, like the really flashy one, like I will get someone for, you know, a billion dollars, but like the inflated, um, uh, trickles down. Yeah, it is still very active today. I mean,[00:16:18] Sarah Wang: yeah, you could be an L five and get an offer in the tens of millions.[00:16:22] Okay. Yeah. Easily. Yeah. It's so I think you're right that it felt like a blip. I hope you're right. Um, but I think it's been, the steady state is now, I think got pulled up. Yeah. Yeah. I'll pull up for[00:16:31] Martin Casado: sure. Yeah.[00:16:32] Alessio: Yeah. And I think that's breaking the early stage founder math too. I think before a lot of people would be like, well, maybe I should just go be a founder instead of like getting paid.[00:16:39] Yeah. 800 KA million at Google. But if I'm getting paid. Five, 6 million. That's different but[00:16:45] Martin Casado: on. But on the other hand, there's more strategic money than we've ever seen historically, right? Mm-hmm. And so, yep. The economics, the, the, the, the calculus on the economics is very different in a number of ways. And, uh, it's crazy.[00:16:58] It's cra it's causing like a, [00:17:00] a, a, a ton of change in confusion in the market. Some very positive, sub negative, like, so for example, the other side of the, um. The co-founder, like, um, acquisition, you know, mark Zuckerberg poaching someone for a lot of money is like, we were actually seeing historic amount of m and a for basically acquihires, right?[00:17:20] That you like, you know, really good outcomes from a venture perspective that are effective acquihires, right? So I would say it's probably net positive from the investment standpoint, even though it seems from the headlines to be very disruptive in a negative way.[00:17:33] Alessio: Yeah.[00:17:33] What's Underfunded: Boring Software, Robotics Skepticism, and Custom Silicon Economics[00:17:33] Alessio: Um, let's talk maybe about what's not being invested in, like maybe some interesting ideas that you would see more people build or it, it seems in a way, you know, as ycs getting more popular, it's like access getting more popular.[00:17:47] There's a startup school path that a lot of founders take and they know what's hot in the VC circles and they know what gets funded. Uh, and there's maybe not as much risk appetite for. Things outside of that. Um, I'm curious if you feel [00:18:00] like that's true and what are maybe, uh, some of the areas, uh, that you think are under discussed?[00:18:06] Martin Casado: I mean, I actually think that we've taken our eye off the ball in a lot of like, just traditional, you know, software companies. Um, so like, I mean. You know, I think right now there's almost a barbell, like you're like the hot thing on X, you're deep tech.[00:18:21] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:18:22] Martin Casado: Right. But I, you know, I feel like there's just kind of a long, you know, list of like good.[00:18:28] Good companies that will be around for a long time in very large markets. Say you're building a database, you know, say you're building, um, you know, kind of monitoring or logging or tooling or whatever. There's some good companies out there right now, but like, they have a really hard time getting, um, the attention of investors.[00:18:43] And it's almost become a meme, right? Which is like, if you're not basically growing from zero to a hundred in a year, you're not interesting, which is just, is the silliest thing to say. I mean, think of yourself as like an introvert person, like, like your personal money, right? Mm-hmm. So. Your personal money, will you put it in the stock market at 7% or you put it in this company growing five x in a very large [00:19:00] market?[00:19:00] Of course you can put it in the company five x. So it's just like we say these stupid things, like if you're not going from zero to a hundred, but like those, like who knows what the margins of those are mean. Clearly these are good investments. True for anybody, right? True. Like our LPs want whatever.[00:19:12] Three x net over, you know, the life cycle of a fund, right? So a, a company in a big market growing five X is a great investment. We'd, everybody would be happy with these returns, but we've got this kind of mania on these, these strong growths. And so I would say that that's probably the most underinvested sector.[00:19:28] Right now.[00:19:29] swyx: Boring software, boring enterprise software.[00:19:31] Martin Casado: Traditional. Really good company.[00:19:33] swyx: No, no AI here.[00:19:34] Martin Casado: No. Like boring. Well, well, the AI of course is pulling them into use cases. Yeah, but that's not what they're, they're not on the token path, right? Yeah. Let's just say that like they're software, but they're not on the token path.[00:19:41] Like these are like they're great investments from any definition except for like random VC on Twitter saying VC on x, saying like, it's not growing fast enough. What do you[00:19:52] Sarah Wang: think? Yeah, maybe I'll answer a slightly different. Question, but adjacent to what you asked, um, which is maybe an area that we're not, uh, investing [00:20:00] right now that I think is a question and we're spending a lot of time in regardless of whether we pull the trigger or not.[00:20:05] Um, and it would probably be on the hardware side, actually. Robotics, right? And the robotics side. Robotics. Right. Which is, it's, I don't wanna say that it's not getting funding ‘cause it's clearly, uh, it's, it's sort of non-consensus to almost not invest in robotics at this point. But, um, we spent a lot of time in that space and I think for us, we just haven't seen the chat GPT moment.[00:20:22] Happen on the hardware side. Um, and the funding going into it feels like it's already. Taking that for granted.[00:20:30] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. But we also went through the drone, you know, um, there's a zip line right, right out there. What's that? Oh yeah, there's a zip line. Yeah. What the drone, what the av And like one of the takeaways is when it comes to hardware, um, most companies will end up verticalizing.[00:20:46] Like if you're. If you're investing in a robot company for an A for agriculture, you're investing in an ag company. ‘cause that's the competition and that's surprising. And that's supply chain. And if you're doing it for mining, that's mining. And so the ad team does a lot of that type of stuff ‘cause they actually set up to [00:21:00] diligence that type of work.[00:21:01] But for like horizontal technology investing, there's very little when it comes to robots just because it's so fit for, for purpose. And so we kinda like to look at software. Solutions or horizontal solutions like applied intuition. Clearly from the AV wave deep map, clearly from the AV wave, I would say scale AI was actually a horizontal one for That's fair, you know, for robotics early on.[00:21:23] And so that sort of thing we're very, very interested. But the actual like robot interacting with the world is probably better for different team. Agree.[00:21:30] Alessio: Yeah, I'm curious who these teams are supposed to be that invest in them. I feel like everybody's like, yeah, robotics, it's important and like people should invest in it.[00:21:38] But then when you look at like the numbers, like the capital requirements early on versus like the moment of, okay, this is actually gonna work. Let's keep investing. That seems really hard to predict in a way that is not,[00:21:49] Martin Casado: I think co, CO two, kla, gc, I mean these are all invested in in Harvard companies. He just, you know, and [00:22:00] listen, I mean, it could work this time for sure.[00:22:01] Right? I mean if Elon's doing it, he's like, right. Just, just the fact that Elon's doing it means that there's gonna be a lot of capital and a lot of attempts for a long period of time. So that alone maybe suggests that we should just be investing in robotics just ‘cause you have this North star who's Elon with a humanoid and that's gonna like basically willing into being an industry.[00:22:17] Um, but we've just historically found like. We're a huge believer that this is gonna happen. We just don't feel like we're in a good position to diligence these things. ‘cause again, robotics companies tend to be vertical. You really have to understand the market they're being sold into. Like that's like that competitive equilibrium with a human being is what's important.[00:22:34] It's not like the core tech and like we're kind of more horizontal core tech type investors. And this is Sarah and I. Yeah, the ad team is different. They can actually do these types of things.[00:22:42] swyx: Uh, just to clarify, AD stands for[00:22:44] Martin Casado: American Dynamism.[00:22:45] swyx: Alright. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I actually, I do have a related question that, first of all, I wanna acknowledge also just on the, on the chip side.[00:22:51] Yeah. I, I recall a podcast that where you were on, i, I, I think it was the a CC podcast, uh, about two or three years ago where you, where you suddenly said [00:23:00] something, which really stuck in my head about how at some point, at some point kind of scale it makes sense to. Build a custom aic Yes. For per run.[00:23:07] Martin Casado: Yes.[00:23:07] It's crazy. Yeah.[00:23:09] swyx: We're here and I think you, you estimated 500 billion, uh, something.[00:23:12] Martin Casado: No, no, no. A billion, a billion dollar training run of $1 billion training run. It makes sense to actually do a custom meic if you can do it in time. The question now is timelines. Yeah, but not money because just, just, just rough math.[00:23:22] If it's a billion dollar training. Then the inference for that model has to be over a billion, otherwise it won't be solvent. So let's assume it's, if you could save 20%, which you could save much more than that with an ASIC 20%, that's $200 million. You can tape out a chip for $200 million. Right? So now you can literally like justify economically, not timeline wise.[00:23:41] That's a different issue. An ASIC per model, which[00:23:44] swyx: is because that, that's how much we leave on the table every single time. We, we, we do like generic Nvidia.[00:23:48] Martin Casado: Exactly. Exactly. No, it, it is actually much more than that. You could probably get, you know, a factor of two, which would be 500 million.[00:23:54] swyx: Typical MFU would be like 50.[00:23:55] Yeah, yeah. And that's good.[00:23:57] Martin Casado: Exactly. Yeah. Hundred[00:23:57] swyx: percent. Um, so, so, yeah, and I mean, and I [00:24:00] just wanna acknowledge like, here we are in, in, in 2025 and opening eyes confirming like Broadcom and all the other like custom silicon deals, which is incredible. I, I think that, uh, you know, speaking about ad there's, there's a really like interesting tie in that obviously you guys are hit on, which is like these sort, this sort of like America first movement or like sort of re industrialized here.[00:24:17] Yeah. Uh, move TSMC here, if that's possible. Um, how much overlap is there from ad[00:24:23] Martin Casado: Yeah.[00:24:23] swyx: To, I guess, growth and, uh, investing in particularly like, you know, US AI companies that are strongly bounded by their compute.[00:24:32] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I, I would view, I would view AD as more as a market segmentation than like a mission, right?[00:24:37] So the market segmentation is, it has kind of regulatory compliance issues or government, you know, sale or it deals with like hardware. I mean, they're just set up to, to, to, to, to. To diligence those types of companies. So it's a more of a market segmentation thing. I would say the entire firm. You know, which has been since it is been intercepted, you know, has geographical biases, right?[00:24:58] I mean, for the longest time we're like, you [00:25:00] know, bay Area is gonna be like, great, where the majority of the dollars go. Yeah. And, and listen, there, there's actually a lot of compounding effects for having a geographic bias. Right. You know, everybody's in the same place. You've got an ecosystem, you're there, you've got presence, you've got a network.[00:25:12] Um, and, uh, I mean, I would say the Bay area's very much back. You know, like I, I remember during pre COVID, like it was like almost Crypto had kind of. Pulled startups away. Miami from the Bay Area. Miami, yeah. Yeah. New York was, you know, because it's so close to finance, came up like Los Angeles had a moment ‘cause it was so close to consumer, but now it's kind of come back here.[00:25:29] And so I would say, you know, we tend to be very Bay area focused historically, even though of course we've asked all over the world. And then I would say like, if you take the ring out, you know, one more, it's gonna be the US of course, because we know it very well. And then one more is gonna be getting us and its allies and Yeah.[00:25:44] And it goes from there.[00:25:45] Sarah Wang: Yeah,[00:25:45] Martin Casado: sorry.[00:25:46] Sarah Wang: No, no. I agree. I think from a, but I think from the intern that that's sort of like where the companies are headquartered. Maybe your questions on supply chain and customer base. Uh, I, I would say our customers are, are, our companies are fairly international from that perspective.[00:25:59] Like they're selling [00:26:00] globally, right? They have global supply chains in some cases.[00:26:03] Martin Casado: I would say also the stickiness is very different.[00:26:05] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:26:05] Martin Casado: Historically between venture and growth, like there's so much company building in venture, so much so like hiring the next PM. Introducing the customer, like all of that stuff.[00:26:15] Like of course we're just gonna be stronger where we have our network and we've been doing business for 20 years. I've been in the Bay Area for 25 years, so clearly I'm just more effective here than I would be somewhere else. Um, where I think, I think for some of the later stage rounds, the companies don't need that much help.[00:26:30] They're already kind of pretty mature historically, so like they can kind of be everywhere. So there's kind of less of that stickiness. This is different in the AI time. I mean, Sarah is now the, uh, chief of staff of like half the AI companies in, uh, in the Bay Area right now. She's like, ops Ninja Biz, Devrel, BizOps.[00:26:48] swyx: Are, are you, are you finding much AI automation in your work? Like what, what is your stack.[00:26:53] Sarah Wang: Oh my, in my personal stack.[00:26:54] swyx: I mean, because like, uh, by the way, it's the, the, the reason for this is it is triggering, uh, yeah. We, like, I'm hiring [00:27:00] ops, ops people. Um, a lot of ponders I know are also hiring ops people and I'm just, you know, it's opportunity Since you're, you're also like basically helping out with ops with a lot of companies.[00:27:09] What are people doing these days? Because it's still very manual as far as I can tell.[00:27:13] Sarah Wang: Hmm. Yeah. I think the things that we help with are pretty network based, um, in that. It's sort of like, Hey, how do do I shortcut this process? Well, let's connect you to the right person. So there's not quite an AI workflow for that.[00:27:26] I will say as a growth investor, Claude Cowork is pretty interesting. Yeah. Like for the first time, you can actually get one shot data analysis. Right. Which, you know, if you're gonna do a customer database, analyze a cohort retention, right? That's just stuff that you had to do by hand before. And our team, the other, it was like midnight and the three of us were playing with Claude Cowork.[00:27:47] We gave it a raw file. Boom. Perfectly accurate. We checked the numbers. It was amazing. That was my like, aha moment. That sounds so boring. But you know, that's, that's the kind of thing that a growth investor is like, [00:28:00] you know, slaving away on late at night. Um, done in a few seconds.[00:28:03] swyx: Yeah. You gotta wonder what the whole, like, philanthropic labs, which is like their new sort of products studio.[00:28:10] Yeah. What would that be worth as an independent, uh, startup? You know, like a[00:28:14] Martin Casado: lot.[00:28:14] Sarah Wang: Yeah, true.[00:28:16] swyx: Yeah. You[00:28:16] Martin Casado: gotta hand it to them. They've been executing incredibly well.[00:28:19] swyx: Yeah. I, I mean, to me, like, you know, philanthropic, like building on cloud code, I think, uh, it makes sense to me the, the real. Um, pedal to the metal, whatever the, the, the phrase is, is when they start coming after consumer with, uh, against OpenAI and like that is like red alert at Open ai.[00:28:35] Oh, I[00:28:35] Martin Casado: think they've been pretty clear. They're enterprise focused.[00:28:37] swyx: They have been, but like they've been free. Here's[00:28:40] Martin Casado: care publicly,[00:28:40] swyx: it's enterprise focused. It's coding. Right. Yeah.[00:28:43] AI Labs vs Startups: Disruption, Undercutting & the Innovator's Dilemma[00:28:43] swyx: And then, and, but here's cloud, cloud, cowork, and, and here's like, well, we, uh, they, apparently they're running Instagram ads for Claudia.[00:28:50] I, on, you know, for, for people on, I get them all the time. Right. And so, like,[00:28:54] Martin Casado: uh,[00:28:54] swyx: it, it's kind of like this, the disruption thing of, uh, you know. Mo Open has been doing, [00:29:00] consumer been doing the, just pursuing general intelligence in every mo modality, and here's a topic that only focus on this thing, but now they're sort of undercutting and doing the whole innovator's dilemma thing on like everything else.[00:29:11] Martin Casado: It's very[00:29:11] swyx: interesting.[00:29:12] Martin Casado: Yeah, I mean there's, there's a very open que so for me there's like, do you know that meme where there's like the guy in the path and there's like a path this way? There's a path this way. Like one which way Western man. Yeah. Yeah.[00:29:23] Two Futures for AI: Infinite Market vs AGI Oligopoly[00:29:23] Martin Casado: And for me, like, like all the entire industry kind of like hinges on like two potential futures.[00:29:29] So in, in one potential future, um, the market is infinitely large. There's perverse economies of scale. ‘cause as soon as you put a model out there, like it kind of sublimates and all the other models catch up and like, it's just like software's being rewritten and fractured all over the place and there's tons of upside and it just grows.[00:29:48] And then there's another path which is like, well. Maybe these models actually generalize really well, and all you have to do is train them with three times more money. That's all you have to [00:30:00] do, and it'll just consume everything beyond it. And if that's the case, like you end up with basically an oligopoly for everything, like, you know mm-hmm.[00:30:06] Because they're perfectly general and like, so this would be like the, the a GI path would be like, these are perfectly general. They can do everything. And this one is like, this is actually normal software. The universe is complicated. You've got, and nobody knows the answer.[00:30:18] The Economics Reality Check: Gross Margins, Training Costs & Borrowing Against the Future[00:30:18] Martin Casado: My belief is if you actually look at the numbers of these companies, so generally if you look at the numbers of these companies, if you look at like the amount they're making and how much they, they spent training the last model, they're gross margin positive.[00:30:30] You're like, oh, that's really working. But if you look at like. The current training that they're doing for the next model, their gross margin negative. So part of me thinks that a lot of ‘em are kind of borrowing against the future and that's gonna have to slow down. It's gonna catch up to them at some point in time, but we don't really know.[00:30:47] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:30:47] Martin Casado: Does that make sense? Like, I mean, it could be, it could be the case that the only reason this is working is ‘cause they can raise that next round and they can train that next model. ‘cause these models have such a short. Life. And so at some point in time, like, you know, they won't be able to [00:31:00] raise that next round for the next model and then things will kind of converge and fragment again.[00:31:03] But right now it's not.[00:31:04] Sarah Wang: Totally. I think the other, by the way, just, um, a meta point. I think the other lesson from the last three years is, and we talk about this all the time ‘cause we're on this. Twitter X bubble. Um, cool. But, you know, if you go back to, let's say March, 2024, that period, it felt like a, I think an open source model with an, like a, you know, benchmark leading capability was sort of launching on a daily basis at that point.[00:31:27] And, um, and so that, you know, that's one period. Suddenly it's sort of like open source takes over the world. There's gonna be a plethora. It's not an oligopoly, you know, if you fast, you know, if you, if you rewind time even before that GPT-4 was number one for. Nine months, 10 months. It's a long time. Right.[00:31:44] Um, and of course now we're in this era where it feels like an oligopoly, um, maybe some very steady state shifts and, and you know, it could look like this in the future too, but it just, it's so hard to call. And I think the thing that keeps, you know, us up at [00:32:00] night in, in a good way and bad way, is that the capability progress is actually not slowing down.[00:32:06] And so until that happens, right, like you don't know what's gonna look like.[00:32:09] Martin Casado: But I, I would, I would say for sure it's not converged, like for sure, like the systemic capital flows have not converged, meaning right now it's still borrowing against the future to subsidize growth currently, which you can do that for a period of time.[00:32:23] But, but you know, at the end, at some point the market will rationalize that and just nobody knows what that will look like.[00:32:29] Alessio: Yeah.[00:32:29] Martin Casado: Or, or like the drop in price of compute will, will, will save them. Who knows?[00:32:34] Alessio: Yeah. Yeah. I think the models need to ask them to, to specific tasks. You know? It's like, okay, now Opus 4.5 might be a GI at some specific task, and now you can like depreciate the model over a longer time.[00:32:45] I think now, now, right now there's like no old model.[00:32:47] Martin Casado: No, but let, but lemme just change that mental, that's, that used to be my mental model. Lemme just change it a little bit.[00:32:53] Capital as a Weapon vs Task Saturation: Where Real Enterprise Value Gets Built[00:32:53] Martin Casado: If you can raise three times, if you can raise more than the aggregate of anybody that uses your models, that doesn't even matter.[00:32:59] It doesn't [00:33:00] even matter. See what I'm saying? Like, yeah. Yeah. So, so I have an API Business. My API business is 60% margin, or 70% margin, or 80% margin is a high margin business. So I know what everybody is using. If I can raise more money than the aggregate of everybody that's using it, I will consume them whether I'm a GI or not.[00:33:14] And I will know if they're using it ‘cause they're using it. And like, unlike in the past where engineering stops me from doing that.[00:33:21] Alessio: Mm-hmm.[00:33:21] Martin Casado: It is very straightforward. You just train. So I also thought it was kind of like, you must ask the code a GI, general, general, general. But I think there's also just a possibility that the, that the capital markets will just give them the, the, the ammunition to just go after everybody on top of ‘em.[00:33:36] Sarah Wang: I, I do wonder though, to your point, um, if there's a certain task that. Getting marginally better isn't actually that much better. Like we've asked them to it, to, you know, we can call it a GI or whatever, you know, actually, Ali Goi talks about this, like we're already at a GI for a lot of functions in the enterprise.[00:33:50] Um. That's probably those for those tasks, you probably could build very specific companies that focus on just getting as much value out of that task that isn't [00:34:00] coming from the model itself. There's probably a rich enterprise business to be built there. I mean, could be wrong on that, but there's a lot of interesting examples.[00:34:08] So, right, if you're looking the legal profession or, or whatnot, and maybe that's not a great one ‘cause the models are getting better on that front too, but just something where it's a bit saturated, then the value comes from. Services. It comes from implementation, right? It comes from all these things that actually make it useful to the end customer.[00:34:24] Martin Casado: Sorry, what am I, one more thing I think is, is underused in all of this is like, to what extent every task is a GI complete.[00:34:31] Sarah Wang: Mm-hmm.[00:34:32] Martin Casado: Yeah. I code every day. It's so fun.[00:34:35] Sarah Wang: That's a core question. Yeah.[00:34:36] Martin Casado: And like. When I'm talking to these models, it's not just code. I mean, it's everything, right? Like I, you know, like it's,[00:34:43] swyx: it's healthcare.[00:34:44] It's,[00:34:44] Martin Casado: I mean, it's[00:34:44] swyx: Mele,[00:34:45] Martin Casado: but it's every, it is exactly that. Like, yeah, that's[00:34:47] Sarah Wang: great support. Yeah.[00:34:48] Martin Casado: It's everything. Like I'm asking these models to, yeah, to understand compliance. I'm asking these models to go search the web. I'm asking these models to talk about things I know in the history, like it's having a full conversation with me while I, I engineer, and so it could be [00:35:00] the case that like, mm-hmm.[00:35:01] The most a, you know, a GI complete, like I'm not an a GI guy. Like I think that's, you know, but like the most a GI complete model will is win independent of the task. And we don't know the answer to that one either.[00:35:11] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:12] Martin Casado: But it seems to me that like, listen, codex in my experience is for sure better than Opus 4.5 for coding.[00:35:18] Like it finds the hardest bugs that I work in with. Like, it is, you know. The smartest developers. I don't work on it. It's great. Um, but I think Opus 4.5 is actually very, it's got a great bedside manner and it really, and it, it really matters if you're building something very complex because like, it really, you know, like you're, you're, you're a partner and a brainstorming partner for somebody.[00:35:38] And I think we don't discuss enough how every task kind of has that quality.[00:35:42] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:35:43] Martin Casado: And what does that mean to like capital investment and like frontier models and Submodels? Yeah.[00:35:47] Why “Coding Models” Keep Collapsing into Generalists (Reasoning vs Taste)[00:35:47] Martin Casado: Like what happened to all the special coding models? Like, none of ‘em worked right. So[00:35:51] Alessio: some of them, they didn't even get released.[00:35:53] Magical[00:35:54] Martin Casado: Devrel. There's a whole, there's a whole host. We saw a bunch of them and like there's this whole theory that like, there could be, and [00:36:00] I think one of the conclusions is, is like there's no such thing as a coding model,[00:36:04] Alessio: you know?[00:36:04] Martin Casado: Like, that's not a thing. Like you're talking to another human being and it's, it's good at coding, but like it's gotta be good at everything.[00:36:10] swyx: Uh, minor disagree only because I, I'm pretty like, have pretty high confidence that basically open eye will always release a GPT five and a GT five codex. Like that's the code's. Yeah. The way I call it is one for raisin, one for Tiz. Um, and, and then like someone internal open, it was like, yeah, that's a good way to frame it.[00:36:32] Martin Casado: That's so funny.[00:36:33] swyx: Uh, but maybe it, maybe it collapses down to reason and that's it. It's not like a hundred dimensions doesn't life. Yeah. It's two dimensions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like and exactly. Beside manner versus coding. Yeah.[00:36:43] Martin Casado: Yeah.[00:36:44] swyx: It's, yeah.[00:36:46] Martin Casado: I, I think for, for any, it's hilarious. For any, for anybody listening to this for, for, for, I mean, for you, like when, when you're like coding or using these models for something like that.[00:36:52] Like actually just like be aware of how much of the interaction has nothing to do with coding and it just turns out to be a large portion of it. And so like, you're, I [00:37:00] think like, like the best Soto ish model. You know, it is going to remain very important no matter what the task is.[00:37:06] swyx: Yeah.[00:37:07] What He's Actually Coding: Gaussian Splats, Spark.js & 3D Scene Rendering Demos[00:37:07] swyx: Uh, speaking of coding, uh, I, I'm gonna be cheeky and ask like, what actually are you coding?[00:37:11] Because obviously you, you could code anything and you are obviously a busy investor and a manager of the good. Giant team. Um, what are you calling?[00:37:18] Martin Casado: I help, um, uh, FEFA at World Labs. Uh, it's one of the investments and um, and they're building a foundation model that creates 3D scenes.[00:37:27] swyx: Yeah, we had it on the pod.[00:37:28] Yeah. Yeah,[00:37:28] Martin Casado: yeah. And so these 3D scenes are Gaussian splats, just by the way that kind of AI works. And so like, you can reconstruct a scene better with, with, with radiance feels than with meshes. ‘cause like they don't really have topology. So, so they, they, they produce each. Beautiful, you know, 3D rendered scenes that are Gaussian splats, but the actual industry support for Gaussian splats isn't great.[00:37:50] It's just never, you know, it's always been meshes and like, things like unreal use meshes. And so I work on a open source library called Spark js, which is a. Uh, [00:38:00] a JavaScript rendering layer ready for Gaussian splats. And it's just because, you know, um, you, you, you need that support and, and right now there's kind of a three js moment that's all meshes and so like, it's become kind of the default in three Js ecosystem.[00:38:13] As part of that to kind of exercise the library, I just build a whole bunch of cool demos. So if you see me on X, you see like all my demos and all the world building, but all of that is just to exercise this, this library that I work on. ‘cause it's actually a very tough algorithmics problem to actually scale a library that much.[00:38:29] And just so you know, this is ancient history now, but 30 years ago I paid for undergrad, you know, working on game engines in college in the late nineties. So I've got actually a back and it's very old background, but I actually have a background in this and so a lot of it's fun. You know, but, but the, the, the, the whole goal is just for this rendering library to, to,[00:38:47] Sarah Wang: are you one of the most active contributors?[00:38:49] The, their GitHub[00:38:50] Martin Casado: spark? Yes.[00:38:51] Sarah Wang: Yeah, yeah.[00:38:51] Martin Casado: There's only two of us there, so, yes. No, so by the way, so the, the pri The pri, yeah. Yeah. So the primary developer is a [00:39:00] guy named Andres Quist, who's an absolute genius. He and I did our, our PhDs together. And so like, um, we studied for constant Quas together. It was almost like hanging out with an old friend, you know?[00:39:09] And so like. So he, he's the core, core guy. I did mostly kind of, you know, the side I run venture fund.[00:39:14] swyx: It's amazing. Like five years ago you would not have done any of this. And it brought you back[00:39:19] Martin Casado: the act, the Activ energy, you're still back. Energy was so high because you had to learn all the framework b******t.[00:39:23] Man, I f*****g used to hate that. And so like, now I don't have to deal with that. I can like focus on the algorithmics so I can focus on the scaling and I,[00:39:29] swyx: yeah. Yeah.[00:39:29] LLMs vs Spatial Intelligence + How to Value World Labs' 3D Foundation Model[00:39:29] swyx: And then, uh, I'll observe one irony and then I'll ask a serious investor question, uh, which is like, the irony is FFE actually doesn't believe that LMS can lead us to spatial intelligence.[00:39:37] And here you are using LMS to like help like achieve spatial intelligence. I just see, I see some like disconnect in there.[00:39:45] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think, you know, I think, I think what she would say is LLMs are great to help with coding.[00:39:51] swyx: Yes.[00:39:51] Martin Casado: But like, that's very different than a model that actually like provides, they, they'll never have the[00:39:56] swyx: spatial inte[00:39:56] Martin Casado: issues.[00:39:56] And listen, our brains clearly listen, our brains, brains clearly have [00:40:00] both our, our brains clearly have a language reasoning section and they clearly have a spatial reasoning section. I mean, it's just, you know, these are two pretty independent problems.[00:40:07] swyx: Okay. And you, you, like, I, I would say that the, the one data point I recently had, uh, against it is the DeepMind, uh, IMO Gold, where, so, uh, typically the, the typical answer is that this is where you start going down the neuros symbolic path, right?[00:40:21] Like one, uh, sort of very sort of abstract reasoning thing and one form, formal thing. Um, and that's what. DeepMind had in 2024 with alpha proof, alpha geometry, and now they just use deep think and just extended thinking tokens. And it's one model and it's, and it's in LM.[00:40:36] Martin Casado: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:40:37] swyx: And so that, that was my indication of like, maybe you don't need a separate system.[00:40:42] Martin Casado: Yeah. So, so let me step back. I mean, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, these things are like nodes in a graph with weights on them. Right. You know, like it can be modeled like if you, if you distill it down. But let me just talk about the two different substrates. Let's, let me put you in a dark room.[00:40:56] Like totally black room. And then let me just [00:41:00] describe how you exit it. Like to your left, there's a table like duck below this thing, right? I mean like the chances that you're gonna like not run into something are very low. Now let me like turn on the light and you actually see, and you can do distance and you know how far something away is and like where it is or whatever.[00:41:17] Then you can do it, right? Like language is not the right primitives to describe. The universe because it's not exact enough. So that's all Faye, Faye is talking about. When it comes to like spatial reasoning, it's like you actually have to know that this is three feet far, like that far away. It is curved.[00:41:37] You have to understand, you know, the, like the actual movement through space.[00:41:40] swyx: Yeah.[00:41:40] Martin Casado: So I do, I listen, I do think at the end of these models are definitely converging as far as models, but there's, there's, there's different representations of problems you're solving. One is language. Which, you know, that would be like describing to somebody like what to do.[00:41:51] And the other one is actually just showing them and the space reasoning is just showing them.[00:41:55] swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Got it, got it. Uh, the, in the investor question was on, on, well labs [00:42:00] is, well, like, how do I value something like this? What, what, what work does the, do you do? I'm just like, Fefe is awesome.[00:42:07] Justin's awesome. And you know, the other two co-founder, co-founders, but like the, the, the tech, everyone's building cool tech. But like, what's the value of the tech? And this is the fundamental question[00:42:16] Martin Casado: of, well, let, let, just like these, let me just maybe give you a rough sketch on the diffusion models. I actually love to hear Sarah because I'm a venture for, you know, so like, ventures always, always like kind of wild west type[00:42:24] swyx: stuff.[00:42:24] You, you, you, you paid a dream and she has to like, actually[00:42:28] Martin Casado: I'm gonna say I'm gonna mar to reality, so I'm gonna say the venture for you. And she can be like, okay, you a little kid. Yeah. So like, so, so these diffusion models literally. Create something for, for almost nothing. And something that the, the world has found to be very valuable in the past, in our real markets, right?[00:42:45] Like, like a 2D image. I mean, that's been an entire market. People value them. It takes a human being a long time to create it, right? I mean, to create a, you know, a, to turn me into a whatever, like an image would cost a hundred bucks in an hour. The inference cost [00:43:00] us a hundredth of a penny, right? So we've seen this with speech in very successful companies.[00:43:03] We've seen this with 2D image. We've seen this with movies. Right? Now, think about 3D scene. I mean, I mean, when's Grand Theft Auto coming out? It's been six, what? It's been 10 years. I mean, how, how like, but hasn't been 10 years.[00:43:14] Alessio: Yeah.[00:43:15] Martin Casado: How much would it cost to like, to reproduce this room in 3D? Right. If you, if you, if you hired somebody on fiber, like in, in any sort of quality, probably 4,000 to $10,000.[00:43:24] And then if you had a professional, probably $30,000. So if you could generate the exact same thing from a 2D image, and we know that these are used and they're using Unreal and they're using Blend, or they're using movies and they're using video games and they're using all. So if you could do that for.[00:43:36] You know, less than a dollar, that's four or five orders of magnitude cheaper. So you're bringing the marginal cost of something that's useful down by three orders of magnitude, which historically have created very large companies. So that would be like the venture kind of strategic dreaming map.[00:43:49] swyx: Yeah.[00:43:50] And, and for listeners, uh, you can do this yourself on your, on your own phone with like. Uh, the marble.[00:43:55] Martin Casado: Yeah. Marble.[00:43:55] swyx: Uh, or but also there's many Nerf apps where you just go on your iPhone and, and do this.[00:43:59] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:00] Yeah. And, and in the case of marble though, it would, what you do is you literally give it in.[00:44:03] So most Nerf apps you like kind of run around and take a whole bunch of pictures and then you kind of reconstruct it.[00:44:08] swyx: Yeah.[00:44:08] Martin Casado: Um, things like marble, just that the whole generative 3D space will just take a 2D image and it'll reconstruct all the like, like[00:44:16] swyx: meaning it has to fill in. Uh,[00:44:18] Martin Casado: stuff at the back of the table, under the table, the back, like, like the images, it doesn't see.[00:44:22] So the generator stuff is very different than reconstruction that it fills in the things that you can't see.[00:44:26] swyx: Yeah. Okay.[00:44:26] Sarah Wang: So,[00:44:27] Martin Casado: all right. So now the,[00:44:28] Sarah Wang: no, no. I mean I love that[00:44:29] Martin Casado: the adult[00:44:29] Sarah Wang: perspective. Um, well, no, I was gonna say these are very much a tag team. So we, we started this pod with that, um, premise. And I think this is a perfect question to even build on that further.[00:44:36] ‘cause it truly is, I mean, we're tag teaming all of these together.[00:44:39] Investing in Model Labs, Media Rumors, and the Cursor Playbook (Margins & Going Down-Stack)[00:44:39] Sarah Wang: Um, but I think every investment fundamentally starts with the same. Maybe the same two premises. One is, at this point in time, we actually believe that there are. And of one founders for their particular craft, and they have to be demonstrated in their prior careers, right?[00:44:56] So, uh, we're not investing in every, you know, now the term is NEO [00:45:00] lab, but every foundation model, uh, any, any company, any founder trying to build a foundation model, we're not, um, contrary to popular opinion, we're

In this new episode, host Diana welcomes back guest Jake Doberenz, who shares updates on his life since his last appearance in Season 2. They discuss Jake's new podcast 'Christianity Without Compromise,' his new Substack, and his middle-grade book series 'Super Jake.' The conversation delves into Jake's personal challenges, including a difficult divorce and the loss of his father, and how his faith journey and mental health were affected. They also cover topics such as Christian nationalism, tribalism, and the importance of returning to a Jesus-centered Christianity. Jake emphasizes the value of listening and learning from diverse perspectives as a path to spiritual and personal growth. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:28 Introducing Jake Dorin 01:50 Jake's New Ventures 02:51 Technical Difficulties and Housekeeping 03:33 Jake's Return to the Show 04:13 Jake's Journey and Challenges 13:45 Support Systems and Church Reactions 20:16 Jake's Writing Journey 26:21 Introduction to the Podcast's Mission 26:41 Focusing on Jesus-Centered Christianity 27:50 Challenges and Pushback 28:45 The Call to Smash Idols 29:38 Diverse Conversations and Controversial Topics 31:34 Personal Growth and Education 39:01 Christian Nationalism and Its Dangers 45:04 Reflecting on History and Moving Forward 48:07 Final Thoughts and Advice 50:36 Conclusion and Farewell   Jakedoberenz.com for all things Jake! I am a writer, speaker, minister, coach, and creative thinker living in Oklahoma City, OK. I have earned my Master of Theological Studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my Bachelor's degree in Bible with a minor in Communication Studies. I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums, like podcasts and video. My favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about (though always changing) include: Christian writing, helping people understand the Bible better, Christian identity, theology of technology and social media, use of humor in faith messages, how to get young people back in church, and a Christian response to culture.   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Jake Doberenz [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello everyone. How are you guys today? This is one of our new episodes. We have Jake Dorin back on the show. He was on season two and I did rebroadcast, the first interview that I had with him. So please go back and listen to that. It is fantastic and there's a lot of new things going on with Jake. He has a new podcast, which is called Christianity Without Compromise. He also has a new substack, [00:02:00] that is fabulous. He is written a book, super Jake and a second book. Super Jake and Cool Kenny. So that's a fictional book. Got remarried recently and there's a lot of here to talk about that is very timely for today. I just love his podcast. It is really great. He talks about, current topics that affect the church. And so I'm not gonna do too much intro because, like I said, you can listen to the original podcast interview from, last time. I've got lots of questions for him. I don't really have a script today. I'm just gonna go with the flow as to, what he wants to talk about. Um, a couple housekeeping things. I had some computer problems, some internet problems, and so I [00:03:00] was this afternoon switching out my computer in my studio with my laptop, so I didn't have to do the podcast on my cell phone. Um, this camera isn't as wonderful as my other one, and the sound isn't as wonderful, but I'm gonna try and fix the sound part post-production. But this is gonna be a fantastic show, perfect for the new year. So I hope that you will enjoy my second conversation with Jake Doberenz. Alright, welcome back to the show from season two. Jake, do thanks for coming on the show again. Of course, of course. I'm glad you'll have me all these seasons later. That's, that's really fun. It's cool. Yeah. There's a lot of things that have happened since, you were on the show, so I was glad that you were looking to be a [00:04:00] guest again, and, definitely wanted you to come back and share what you've been up to since then, some exciting things, and then some contemplative things that you've experienced. So remind the folks , what you're all about. Oh, what I'm all about. I mean, the formats change, but I've always just been trying to communicate Christian truth to people, you know, through podcasts, through books, through plays, like whatever the, the medium changes all the time. I just think Jesus is pretty cool and I want people to know him better and, um, I want people to know the real Jesus and not, there's a bunch of posers running around. Don't know if you knew that, but I want people to encounter the real thing. So, I mean, that's who, that's what I'm all about. Since the last time we've talked, I've probably started and also abandoned like a hundred projects, you know, that's just my nature. Fortunately, and [00:05:00] unfortunately, well, I was a big fan of your creatively Christian mm-hmm. Podcast. I was a guest on there with Andrea. Yeah. And I really enjoyed that being a musician and everything, and a creative myself. I understand that you're not doing that anymore, right? Yeah. That one's not, active anymore. I handed that off to Brandon. Brandon was one of our anchor hosts there on the show. He still posts about the show sometimes, and, uh, he has all the rights and access to the material. And so episodes still get shared and still get listens to. I think stopped, early, like 23, or 24, man, I don't know. The years have blurred together. But I still get notifications of people wanting to be guests on that show or, you know, some, something like good pods will say, Hey, this is ranked in the top for Christian, you know, arts and stuff. I'm like, whoa, it's crazy. So it [00:06:00] still gets traction even though we're not actively publishing, which is definitely fun. Wow. And you. Have this new podcast, Christianity Without Compromise, which I am like fan number two. Jake, I just absolutely love this podcast, I know you had it branded as Smashing Idols, which actually liked that title. Oh. Or did you decide to change it? Well, I decided to change it because it's a cool title, but I would tell that to people and they'd be like, I, what is that? Huh? What's going on here? Um, and so I wanted a fit of a couple keywords in there. I wanted to be very clear. It was about Christianity and Christian stuff. So a little bit to get found better. I mean, that was a lot of it. Mm-hmm. It get understood a little bit better. Um, but we're still this pretty much the same mission. We're smashing the idols. We're trying to bring the church back to kind of a faithful Christian witness. Right. And that means, hey, there are some idols in the [00:07:00] way. We're just gonna, move them and sometimes get a hammer out and start smashing 'em. 'cause we gotta get those out of the way to get back to the real deal. I totally agree. Yeah. When you are on here in season two. You went through some really difficult times of your life and I wanted to have you share with our audience, what you've learned in, those tough times and what was your relationship with the Lord and how he helped you through that. Whatever you're comfortable sharing with us. Yeah, I mean, since then I've had my job more than a year, uh, my job, period of life, right? But before we catch everybody up, I want people to understand, like, I had a relatively more or less comfortable life. I grew up in the church. My, my parents stayed together. It wasn't perfect, but they stayed together and didn't really have anybody like die or leave in my [00:08:00] world. Like it wasn't bad. And then I grow up and become an adult human person. I graduate college and then it was a little bit downhill from there. I think we're on the Upward Hill part, but it went downhill from there. So, after college, I got married to somebody who I loved and thought loved me, and things were pretty good. Um, until a time where she just decided, I don't want to invest in this relationship anymore. I don't wanna do this thing anymore. And there were a variety of reasons for that, that I won't get into. That's something that she decided, but. Did the whole marriage counseling thing. And ultimately it comes to a point in counseling like that where there's a decision. We've spent six weeks or whatever picking apart all the problems. Now are you gonna change? Are we gonna do something about [00:09:00] it? Are we gonna fix it? And her answer was, I'm good. I don't think so. See you later. Um, and so that was a difficult year. It ended up being about a year from there, so the actual divorce papers were signed. And that was not a fun time in my life. For sure, obviously for people that have gone through any kind of broken relationships like that. Just not good. I struggled a lot, you know, you mentioned the faith journey kind of thing. Like I believed. God wanted to save my marriage. I did pretty much everything I could as a human being to save that. I did. I read all the books. I, I literally read maybe 30 marriage books. I, did counseling, you know, individual therapy, virtual therapy I talked to experts in saving marriages and marriages and crisis. I spent a good chunk of money, as kind of this [00:10:00] last ditch effort going to this conference that we both attended virtually that was supposed to kind of help get us talking and heal some things. None of that worked. And that was really challenging because I said, well, doesn't God want marriages to stay together? Isn't that what God's all about? Like, that would be God's preference, surely. Right? Um. God doesn't override free will, very often. And so that's what happened. Like people made choices and it was a eye-opening time of, like other people in the world can just make whatever choices they want and sometimes you cannot control them, right? You, you, you can't, you don't have a say. And we have to just deal with that. We have to accept that to some extent. You know, I am proud of the progress that I made and the things I did to better myself. And so I can sleep easy, so to speak, knowing that like I did my part. But. [00:11:00] There was no happy ending to that necessarily. And then pretty much shortly after that, my dad died unexpectedly. And so again, it was this, this job thing, right? It just like one after another. And, things kind of fell apart. Uh, and losing a marriage, losing a father, they for better or for worse put, put things in perspective. And so while those weren't, um, good things, like I can't call them objectively good, there was good that came out of that, I became a better. A better person. I'm just full stop. I like to think I'm a better person than I was last time I was on the show here. I am absolutely healthier spiritually, mentally, and all the ways, like I did the work in myself. It doesn't mean I'm a perfect human being, you know, still a process, but I am at a better [00:12:00] point. And, I'm remarried now. I found somebody who really likes me and she's not going anywhere. And, we put in the work together and doesn't mean things are perfect, but, we both recognize that, that we are imperfect and we're just gonna do our best each day. And if there's a problem, we're gonna address it and not hide it for, you know, three years kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's good. So that's been the journey, right? Literally the darkest times. I mean there was a brief moment in that darkness that the holiday after my dad died and I had gotten divorced and my dad died in the same year, I felt for the first time, like thoughts of ending it all. And those were fleeting. I didn't think that very often, but it was just like too much. But I crawled, my way out of the darkness, [00:13:00] and things. Better on the other side. Uh, so that's my story and I'm, uh, I'm sticking to it. Oh, well thank you for being so transparent. And it's not easy to say those hard times. And, I think that a lot of people listening can relate to what you just said and have been through divorce and no matter who's ended the relationship, it was mm-hmm. Ending for a reason and they question God's will. Yeah. And whether God's mad at them or the church is not supportive of them. Yeah, that was one of my questions. How did your church, respond to the divorce? Did you felt like you were cared for, or did you feel judged in any way? Or what was that like? Well, I'm gonna make a generalization [00:14:00] here, that I've noted before. my more conservative Christian Church friends didn't ever want to talk about it. They weren't gonna bring it up. They we're gonna say anything. I'm like, surely, you know, you've heard through the grapevine, you saw something, you realized who's missing in the picture. Like, you know, but they wouldn't bring it up. Uncomfortable, wouldn't talk about it. Now my more, what I'll call progressive Christian friends. They were talking about, oh, come on. You know, Jake, it's fine. Like second marriages are better. Who cares about her? Move on, man. Life can be so much great on the other side, which I mean, I get what they were trying to do, but that's not what I want to hear either. And then weirdly, um, some of my atheist friends, like coworkers and things of that nature, they were just like, man, that sucks. Like, that's tough. That's [00:15:00] terrible. And so I got a lot of my actual support from the atheists. And again, generalizations here. Like there were Christians that were g like, yeah. But um, a lot of people in the church just didn't wanna have that conversation or if they were gonna have that conversation. They wanted to go too much into the, rainbows and sunshine on the other side. But that's not what I wanted to hear. Mm-hmm. A lot of people thought I was crazy for trying to save my marriage for hoping, for wanting, everybody can make their own different choices there in relationships that are in crisis. In that point. For me, I stuck it out, basically until my dad died, where that was like in a weird way, kind of just a, a way for me to move on and say, I'm gonna focus. Like when, [00:16:00] when your life can literally just be cut short, I need to move on. I'm going to go. A new direction kind of thing. But yeah, people were strange. People acted, strangely. So I don't think I was judged or condemned. Not to my face. Nothing that I ever heard. The only thing that was judged weirdly was me, sticking it out. Mm-hmm. Trying to save that marriage. Some people did not like that, including some close friends got mad at me because they're like, well, how dare you? She doesn't want it. How dare you try to pursue, try to make this better? And that's a tough one. I mean, I think it's a little harsh and crazy to be mad at me for wanting to fix it. Yeah. And again, it comes down to yeah, you need two people. So if the two people aren't on board here. Well that can't be saved. And that's how it ended up happening. Well, I went through my own divorce, as you know, and Uhhuh I [00:17:00] on my second marriage and they church crucified me. Wow. I mean it was, very negative and very judgmental. And I did try to save the marriage. I dragged him to three different marriage counselors and Yeah, of course. Suffered a lot of abuse for 13 years and he didn't wanna save the marriage when we were together. And, I'm not gonna force somebody. For somebody to change or to repent, you can't, it's like, well you, yeah. And I'm sorry that the church didn't support me and the church decided, they were going to make me either go back to my husband or, I couldn't be part of the church anymore. It's like, no, not going. Yeah, that's insane. I'm not going back, I'm not going back to an unrepentant, husband. Mm-hmm. I'm glad that you had a good experience. Although a little strange, but you didn't seem to be ostracized or [00:18:00] gossiped about? Not to my face. I mean, yeah. Not to your face, you know, they can, I guess see what they want, but. Well, I was doing some preaching at some churches and like doing stuff like that and, I was afraid that I was gonna lose those positions. I didn't, and maybe this is a gender thing that comes into play here, but it was like, well, she decided to leave, so you're fine, you're off the hook or something like that. Some people wanted to know whose fault was it? And I'm like, well, I wasn't perfect here. There was reasons she wanted out, but at the end of the day, she was the one wanting out. So I, and this doesn't make it better or more comfortable, but I feel like there were some people in the church that were like, well, as long as it's her fault, as long as it's something. But, I don't know. I still struggled with all the. Biblical stuff myself, I gave myself enough guilt. They were quote [00:19:00] bible verses at me, right and left. Ugh. And you know, I couldn't, that's tough. Quote, goodness, couldn't get married again, blah, blah, blah. Right. You know, all the verses and, a lot of my listeners have gone through that, the same kind of negative, judgmental stuff. But glad you came out on the other side with the, um, would you call it depression when your dad died, when you momentarily wanted to Yeah. End it all. Yeah. I was briefly on antidepressants. I needed medical intervention to get out of that, as well as other coping skills and things of that nature. So, yeah. And there's no shame in that, which. A lot of people in my mending the soul groups and those that are listening here, they were shamed for going and getting some mental health, help, stating that you only need the Bible and you just need to pray more, and you don't need any of that other stuff to, get over depression. And that [00:20:00] is really so wrong, you know? Yeah. Yeah. We do need medication sometimes. Maybe not forever, but there is no sin in getting medical help. Amen. Absolutely. Well, we'll probably get onto a lighter topic here. You, uh, wrote. Were they young adult books? The Super Jake series? They're middle grade. So your 9, 10, 11, 12 year olds. That's who it's for. That's a fun age. I remember being that in that group and I did a lot of reading. Oh, me too. At Wish they had Super Jake and Cool Kenny. Yeah. When I was that age. Now just to be honest, I haven't read those books, but could you, tell the folks about your book? You're a natural writer. Is that one of your strengths or did you develop that? Fifth grade, I'm writing stories and things like that. I fell in love with the craft of storytelling, of writing. And so I'm better than I was at writing than I was in fifth [00:21:00] grade. So like, I have improved for sure. Well, when it comes to things I gotta do before I die, like this is, was one of those projects, because I had created this alter ego character, super Jake. Created him in third grade originally and started telling stories in fifth grade. It was my first creative work, right? The reason, you know, leads to creatively Christian, all the other creative endeavors that I would go to. This was my first like, love of storytelling all came from Super Jake, who was a alter ego version of myself, who was a superhero who could shoot ice cream out of his hands, because of course, that's the power when you're. You know, a 10-year-old. Shoots ice cream outta his hands. Um, and so over the years, like I, I struggled with how to tell the story or if to tell the story. I had this weird period of life where I was like, everything I have to do is Christian. So I can't tell that story because it's not [00:22:00] quote unquote Christian. There's no come to Jesus moment at the end, or he's not converting the atheist. And I said, well, you know, what I'm actually doing with these stories. What actually happened was the bad guys are elements of culture, of toxic culture. In the first book, you know, it's the bad guy at the fashion police. And, he's trying to tell everybody to be cool. You gotta dress this way, that's what you gotta do. And then, super Jake combats that with ice cream, with quips and jokes and words and, you know, and so there is no, come to Jesus moment, but. I am still trying to train specifically young boys, but any young reader who might take a look, I'm trying to train them into a better way of viewing things. The second one deals with toxic masculinity. Like the bad guy is all about, you know, men gotta lift weights and we gotta be all tough and, disrespect women and stuff like that. And so, I tackled [00:23:00] those cultural items. Oh, I wish I had super Jake when I was in grade school. 'cause Yeah. Um, I wasn't very popular because I didn't wear the designer clothes. I had the no name brands and I got picked on and bullied. And I wish I had super Jake to come to the rescue for me. Exactly. I know we all do. What could cool Kenny do? That was, his brother? Yeah. Right? The brother. Yeah. My brother, weirdly, coincidentally, happens to be named Kenny as well. Just real crazy coincidence. But, he has the, what's called prehensile hair so his hair can like grow and grab stuff and move around and things like that. So just wild, crazy powers. And, the book series makes fun of that. Like they're very self-aware that these are kind of weird powers. Maybe not the best crime fighting powers that you could ever think of, but that's the humor of it. And then you gotta be very creative. It's hard for me to be creative enough to be like, [00:24:00] okay, shooting scoops of ice cream in his hands. How could that actually save the day? So it's a good challenge for me. And you'll have to read the books to find out what happens. You'll have to read the books. Yep. I gotta get to, to finishing that series. I've been slacking, but there's a couple books out already. Yeah. And so you guys can definitely find those on, right? Amazon? Yeah. All the places Amazon, well, the listeners get good books for kids to read that are clean and have some messages and some fun at the same time. Yeah. We do have your substack that you, said is not new. I have very few people that I subscribe to on Substack because I love to read, but I have only, you know, that's right. I, not enough hours in the day to read everything. You should see my stack of books on my nightstand. Yeah. But you have a fantastic substack that I subscribe to and it goes great with your podcast and your [00:25:00] writing. In college, I minored in communication studies. 'cause I was very interested not just in the knowledge, but how do we communicate this, how do I get this across effectively? So I try to use that in my writing and my podcast. You, whatever I'm doing, I'm, I want you to understand the message the best. So I'm very picky about what words I use and when I do line breaks in spaces anyway, that's just stuff I nerd out about. I like to write, but I'm not that good at it, but I have to really, really work at it. I'm sure in your MDiv you're gonna be writing some stuff, so I've already been warned about that. You're gonna be writing a lot. Oh, you're gonna write some stuff? Yeah, it'll be great. Yeah. Spell check. I'm a good speller, and good at grammar and stuff. I have it in my head what I wanna say, but it never comes out the way I want it to come out. I gotcha. Do you have that struggle? Probably not. I do sometimes. That's why I just throw it out there and I rearrange later. Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely recommend, if you're not on substack, there's some really [00:26:00] great writers on there and people like Jake that, care about Jesus. So we did, mention your podcast. I really wanna talk about your amazing, amazing guests. You really knock it out of the park like every time. I think there's only one guest that I didn't agree with . Okay. I just turned it off 'cause I did not agree with what they were saying. But you have some amazing topics and I love that it's, a podcast for Christians weary of shallow faith in culture, war, religion. Oh my goodness. That is so perfectly worded. And bring us back to Jesus centered Christianity. I absolutely love that. Because it is about Jesus. It's not all this other junk around it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That we call Christianity, it's churchianity. [00:27:00] And just going back to Jesus is what I tell the survivors listening, my people, in my groups, when you're trying to reconstruct, right? Like, well, what do I do? What do I believe? Well, this is what I tell 'em is go back to Jesus. What was Jesus doing? And you talk about that quite a bit on your show. We're going to get rid of all the fluff and the legalism. You list the prosperity gospel, the purity culture, toxic church leadership, obsession with sin and hell, politics mixed in with the gospel. Mm-hmm. And so we need to get away from those things and come back to Christ alone. Yeah. Besides our current culture right now, why did you decide to do this podcast? Because, you're really, [00:28:00] right in the middle of the war zone when you come out and say these things. Hmm. Yeah. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment or something. Right? Like, just love for people to be mad at me online. It's my favorite thing. Um, I get some pushback. Uh, when I started investing more, putting more stuff on YouTube. Obviously on YouTube you can get comments and then I see some comments of people that are like, oh, this guest is a Marxist, blah, blah, blah. You know, terrible sinner person. I'm like, did you listen to, what are you talking about, man? Jake, a Marxist? I'm like, whatever. No. Um, so sometimes I'm like reading comprehension. We need to work on that 'cause or listening comprehension. 'cause what are you guys saying? I mean it started as just a general kind of theology project. I wanted to podcast about fun topics that I cared about and then, the closest I have ever felt to hearing the audible voice of God [00:29:00] was this concept of smashing idols. This idea of be a Gideon, who, who smashes idols in the night, and has his dad defend him. Whole fun little story. And that was like a calling of God. Like this was like, this is what you're supposed to be doing, Jake. And so I followed that. I listened to that. I started focusing a little bit more on, cleaning up the church. Like you said, we're cluttered, so let's clean this extra stuff up. Let's get back to the essentials here, the basic stuff. And so yeah, it puts me into a fun spot. Where I get to have all those conversations that you mentioned. Many of those conversations I don't agree with either. We have people on all different sides of the spectrum. Well, not all sides of the spectrum. There are some sides. We're not gonna touch those sides. But we have a lot of different perspectives and things of that nature. And so I try to select guests that are gonna be more charitable and more, given us something to think about in trying to strip away stuff [00:30:00] to point us to Jesus. So, listen to some of these titles, religious Certainty and being the only one saved. Ooh. That was Scott Lloyd. Crotch Christianity misses the Gospel and yes, I did laugh at that. I thought that was a funny episode. Yeah. People hate when I say the word crotch, but you know, it's fine. Oh yes. I got a good giggle. Six in the morning when I'm on my way to work. Um, no king, but Christ rethinking State, Craig Hargus. Mm-hmm. Why I'm not a creationist anymore. That was very interesting, Jake. I listened to that very intently. The Bible is not an informational book book, which, um, I've learned that the hard way, uh, in my reconstruction. Can the Bible be an idol? Ooh, look, look at you, Jake. You're really stirring the pot now. Oh yeah. The [00:31:00] dangers of Christian nationalism and tribalism. You had Scott McKnight on Deconstruction. That was mm-hmm. Probably the first podcast I listened to and it was absolutely fantastic. Scott is amazing. Oh, and I agreed with everything that he said. I'm gonna get some of his books, Oh yeah. Yeah. Comment on some of these topics here. About the Bible's not an informational book. You've got an Miv, right? Uh, MTS Master of Theology. MM okay. So I real, what I really like about you, Jake, is that you are very transparent with, okay. I've made a lot of mistakes as a Christian in that I thought I knew everything. I thought that, I had all my beliefs set in this little box, and if anybody, challenges my box, then they were, a heretic. And, I'm super [00:32:00] Christian. Let me tell you, I was that person too. Mm-hmm. I was like that when I was in my old. Mm-hmm. I thought, wow, this guy gets it. And you're like, oh, until I went to seminary and then, uh, some of the professors took me down a peg or two. Oh, yeah. And, showed you some things. Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned it, like for me, I went to college thinking I already knew the answers, but I was like, yeah, but I still have to have the degrees just to get the next job, blah, blah, blah. And really just was opened up to a world that I didn't really know that well, apparently. And just encountering diversity of thought was really important. And at its best, that's what higher education, education of any kind is supposed to do. Tell you there are some other way. Yeah. Okay. You know, two plus two equals four. But a lot of things in the world, there's like some [00:33:00] different perspectives, different angles here and things of that nature. And so kind of kicking and screaming like, uh, God brought me through education and said, Jake, yo, you don't know everything. You actually know very little things. And, um, I was humbled through that process Now. Education absolutely can lead many people to be more prideful, to be more puffed up, to be like, oh, I know everything now because I have a degree. I was a lucky case. Or it did the opposite. I still like to think I know a couple things. You know, the Bible study at church. I'm like, yeah, but have you guys considered the Greek word means? But, you know, occasionally there's still that. But I was privileged that I had professors that were, that, you know, they were Christians, they were teaching Bible and theology and they were gracious to young 20 something Jake, and we're willing to walk through [00:34:00] with him and to take his questions and. I was introduced, ultimately while I was studying the Bible. Interesting. Like as an information book, like I have my degree in the academic study of the Bible. The professors made sure I was still having encounter with Jesus, and that was the key there. It's as much as I love digging into the deep stuff about scripture, and there's so much depth, there's so many different little things you go into, you know, I like the weird parts. Give, gimme the Leviticus or whatever. Let's get weird here, you know? But, I didn't lose sight of, the real star of the story, Jesus. Mm-hmm. And, and ultimately it is Jesus. That is the truest revelation of God and not the Bible. The Bible witnesses to Jesus. But the Bible is not the main star. It is Jesus. Um, and I. Was able to realize that, and that opened up everything [00:35:00] that made me a more charitable person. It made me nicer, right? Mm-hmm. Because I didn't think I knew all the answers. So suddenly fruits of the spirit, I had the spirit because the fruits were coming out in a way they were not before. Because I had a spirit of hatred and division and rightness. Uh, not a super helpful one. So I was privileged, I was lucky. It still took me a couple years, and I am always, aware of that. I don't think anybody should change their mind overnight, like the creationist one, for instance. Um, mm-hmm. I don't expect anybody to listen to that one episode and have their whole world change maybe. But I just wanna start a conversation. Because change takes time. I took years and my homework was literally reading the Bible. Like when you're a Bible major, that's your homework. So for other people, if it takes some years, that's okay. I get it. Let's wrestle through this stuff. But as [00:36:00] we wrestle, just like when Jacob wrestled with God, you're gonna probably get a limp. You're gonna, there's something that's gonna happen here. You're gonna be changed. You're gonna get a new name. You're gonna, in his case, at least in Jacob's case, so I say let's wrestle, but be prepared to be changed here. You're not gonna be the same. Yes, I definitely, when I came out of my first marriage and had a change denominations. Yeah, I was the same mindset. 'cause I did my undergraduate and I was a missionary for 15 years and, you know, I did know a lot about the Bible, but , as you say, there's a lot that I didn't know and I had to go to another church and then I find out that, okay, this is, a church that my previous denomination said was, liberal or Sure. They were not real Christians. Their backslidden or whatever because they used a guitar in the [00:37:00] worship service. Or they, have differing beliefs in what Bible they use and mm-hmm. Or the girls wear pants. Oh goodness. The, but the first time I go into these other churches looking for a new place to serve and heal. God just hit me upside the head with a two by four and just like, look, this person here loves Jesus and serves me. So I had gone through a lot of, oh, there's other legitimate beliefs. I'm married to somebody that does not believe in the rapture. So that was, very different for me. I always thought all Christians believed in the rapture. Uh, the creationist part, I can't really ignore science. But I think what's important is that we believe, yes, God created the earth. Yes, God created man, whether it was a million years or if it was [00:38:00] 10,000 years. The important part is that I believe that God is the center of, that. It's all the details in between i'm kind of undecided. I'm still, working through all of that. We're still figuring it out. So I was glad that you brought those topics up in your podcast. You gotta be open to, okay, God, you're gonna show me what the truth is and what is non-negotiable and what is okay, we can differ on some things. Right? And I am starting in a week, going back to seminary for my M div. I didn't get to learn Greek or Hebrew the first go around, so I'm excited about that part. Good luck. Yeah. I like languages. I've already been through the humility part and God put me down a peg or two, so I think I'm on the right path to, receive some things from the professors. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, God bless your professors, who were so patient with you. Oh, they're the best. Yeah. That's all I can ask [00:39:00] for. And now like I said, we don't really talk about politics on the show, but, the dangers of Christian nationalism and tribalism. it's like we're all in these different camps and they're all our enemies 'cause we're in our tribe and we don't go outside our tribe and Yeah, don't talk to anybody else, you know? Unpack that a little for us 'cause you explained that so well. Oh man. Yeah. There is, there's a movement. I mean, we're talking in America specifically, but not only in America. Not only in America of any stretch of the imaginations of Christians who are feeling, the loss of power and privilege, right? Because undeniably Christians don't have the same place in, uh, many governments that they used to. That's an undeniable fact. Oh, mm-hmm. Totally agree. It's not the same. I'm in the Bible belt, there's still a church in every corner, but still it's not the same thing. It was 50 years ago. I wasn't alive 50 years ago, but [00:40:00] from what I understand, a hundred years ago, nobody was alive that long ago. Probably that listened to the show could be wrong. Um, things are different. Sure. Right. And so there is a movement of people that say, we need to, we need to get back to what was, a place when Christianity was more normalized, had that power and privilege when it made sense to pray at a football game or something, when that was just a kind of a part of the culture. And some of that is not necessarily bad. I'm always careful when I talk about Christian nationalism. Christian nationalism isn't Christians, spreading their faith or Christians having political opinions, but there comes a point when you have this nationalism, this tribalism, when it's just kind of this ugly mix of Christian values with American values, sometimes with some kind of, uh, white [00:41:00] supremacy kind of things mixed in. And the kind of cake that comes out of this recipe is just not what Jesus wants from us. It's not close to the gospel, which talks about, peacemaking and is very pro humility and not taking power. And the Jesus we encounter in scripture is very much about the least of these, not so much about let me protect my rights or my privileges and things like that. That's something Christians need to wrestle with. What are we engaging for? Are we. Engaging for what's best for me or what's best for, the person on the street or the person who just doesn't have anything or doesn't have the same, opportunities as us. Who are we fighting for when it comes to things in the political realm? And so then, yeah, that's kind of Christian nationalism. In a nutshell, it's a, it's this project to, to take [00:42:00] over and to make things much more friendly to Christianity. And to be clear, like I do actually think the world would be better if everybody was Christian, but I don't want everybody to be Christian by the point of a sword . Or because it's politically advantageous or better for business. That's not why I want somebody to encounter Jesus, because that's not how we encounter Jesus. And this isn't new. I mean, the church. The church, capital C Church has had some, a real trouble over history If, uh, you ever, looked into history, not some good moment. There was some really bad moments in church history. Yeah. And those bad moments happened because, a church got in bed with Empire and they said, well, the king will serve God. When a lot of times it was God, quote unquote, serving the king, serving the emperor and getting whatever agenda he wanted. I don't like these people. Well, God told me to do this, or [00:43:00] whatever. And it got ugly and bad and a lot of people died, which should have been red flag number one when a lot of people die. Probably not at all the way of Jesus. So we talk about that a lot on the show, in different fashions. We, talk about politics a lot. Um, unfortunately. I don't love all the politics talk, but it's something we have to have. It's something that's important, because it affects real people. Yes. And, my brothers and sisters in Christ are going after some of these movements that are making more people, I think, fall away from Jesus because they say, hold on. I read in the Bible this Jesus guy love him. But those Christians are not talking like Jesus. They're not acting like Jesus. They want to create laws that aren't like Jesus. What's going on here? Um. So, you know, I had a stint in college ministry. I've talked to a lot of young people and you know what, [00:44:00] why the young people are leaving. It's the Christians. I hear the same story every time. It's not, well, Richard Dawkins had this great argument for evolution. That's not why they're leaving. Mm-hmm. I've heard like it's the, Christians supporting this genocide in this country, or, the Christians taking away the rights of this particular group or the racist or sexist language over here. That's why, and that's really sad. And I want people to encounter that Christianity without compromise. Right. Really that's Jesus centered. And I think if we discover that, I think people will like that. And I think Jesus is pretty cool. We all gotta recognize that there's a lot of cool things about faith, but we have just cluttered it with idols and with, stuff that maybe is true but is not the most important thing to, to press somebody on. And that makes me a little disappointed to use [00:45:00] that term. And sometimes it makes me quite angry. So, yeah. Do you know who David Barton is? David Barton. I, that name is not ringing a bell. Well, he is like a pseudo historian. He made all of these, videos about how the nation was founded and it was pretty much a whitewashing of, colonial history and how wonderful the pilgrims were and had dinner with the, Native Americans and Right. It was founded on Christian principles, and this is a Christian nation. Maybe some of that is true, but a lot of his books and, reels that he made were not substantiated by actual historians. So he goes to all these churches and talks about our, founder's history. They were all Bible believing Christians, and we have to get back to our Bible roots. I've been reading a lot of history. Because my mother's [00:46:00] Cherokee, and I'm reading about my heritage. And no, we were not founded on Christianity or biblical principles. There were a lot of, genocide. The Native Americans were almost exterminated. Of course we know about the slave trade. The slaves, they went through horrible, horrible things. we had, imperialism, stealing people's land, taking whatever they want and murdering whoever gets in their way. So Christian nationalism is very, dangerous because it takes away the truth. And marginalized people get seriously hurt. Maybe that was their intent to build it on Christian principles, but that's not what happened. And we don't wanna whitewash history. We don't want to pretend that stuff didn't happen. That we have to take ownership of that as a country. And I don't see that happening right now. It's like, okay, you're gonna try [00:47:00] and take change history. You can't change it and pretend it wasn't there. Or learn from it, you know? Well, I definitely know work like his for sure. Yeah. And one of the things I try to, I don't just wanna put people down, poke holes into things, when it comes to something like this, whether you believed any of that or not. We always can discover the truth and we can change and we can make things better. Wherever the nation has been or is going. Maybe not the best direction that we're going in, but I believe we can always turn as a people, as individuals, we can always change and go back to Jesus. I never wanna leave it on the downers, what I'm trying to say. Right, right. Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to throw that in there. Uh, we can change, we can get back on track. I believe it. Yeah. I, there's definitely, things we can learn from our past and try and make mm-hmm. The world [00:48:00] a better place. Whatever part of the world we're in, we're we can influence our corner. Amen. Absolutely. For Jesus. Well, we've talked about a lot of stuff. We're all over the map today, but yeah. I love, loved what you said, what you shared with us, and, just going back and forth on things. And, I know you have your one question you always ask at the end of your show. I'm not gonna steal your idea, but, do you have any advice for my audience that's listening, some closing thoughts, that you can give them? Yeah. Um, that's very funny. I briefly thought about it. I wonder if she's gonna throw this back at me. A lot of my guests at the end of the show have a version of this. Um, but even if it wasn't popular, I would say something similar. I think we just need to listen more. We need to learn to listen. I think that's gonna help us spiritually. I think it's gonna help us. You know, as human beings in the world, I wanna challenge people to practice that discipline of [00:49:00] listening. I'm a talker, right? I have a podcast. I do have other people talk a lot on my podcast though. So that's a great time for me to practice listening. But I want to, oh, jump in and, Nope, nope. I just think, yeah, we can all practice listening a little bit more. Strike up a conversation with somebody different than you and just listen and not try to refute them, right? That's the old, that should be the old you. That was certainly the old me who is like, thinking of the argument in my head, how I'm gonna refute them, and not caring about them as a human being, not actually listening to the words they say. So, honestly, the most practical thing I can do is listen more. It's just gonna help us be better human beings. And I think as we learn to listen to people more, I think we're also going to hear god much more clearly. Right. We are going to be, if we're not transformed by the patterns of this world, as Romans twelves tells us, the rest of that verse is so that you'll know the will of God do not be transformed by the patterns of this world. But be but by the renewing of your mind. I'm butchering it out, but [00:50:00] all the parts are there. They, the point there is, we will know the will of God when we're not engaging in the patterns of the world. And one of these patterns of the world is talking more and not listening. So listen up everybody. Well I appreciate that. I appreciate you coming back onto the show. Yeah. You are invited any time to come back and talk about whatever you want. I'll come back in season, I don't know, 10, 12, whatever you to yeah. Whatever I make it to. There we go. Well, God bless you and hope you New Year. Yeah, thank you I sure hope that you enjoyed Jake Doberenz. He is a wonderful speaker, wonderful human being. We talked about doing what we call a podcast swap. So. I will be on Jake's show, uh, sometime in the future, within the next month or two, and I'll be telling my story and maybe talking about some of the [00:51:00] idols that I had to deal with and the idols that I need to smash. But you can reach out to Jake on his website that has all things. Jake, that will be jakedoberenz.com. This will all be in the show notes, but you can see all of the different Ministries that he has. The things that we talked about. So you can learn about his podcast, his substack writing, his books the Super Jake series. And he does preaching, and teaching in, other churches or conferences. Listen to his podcast on all of the major, platforms that you're familiar with. His email is contact@jakedober.com. Reach out to him if he can be of any help to you. Thanks for being here with us. [00:52:00] We will see you next time God bless and bye for now. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

In this week's episode, Blood editor Dr. Laurie Sehn interviews authors Drs. Julie Jaffray and Ulrike Philippar on their latest articles published in Blood. Dr. Jaffray discusses her CME article, "Multisite validation of a venous thrombosis risk model in critically ill children through the CHAT Consortium", identifying patients with risks as high as 17% and taking research one step closer to the goal of personalized thromboprophylaxis for safe and effective care of high-risk children. Dr. Philippar discusses her article "Ramantamig (JNJ-79635322), a novel T-cell-engaging trispecific antibody targeting BCMA, GPRC5D, and CD3, in multiple myeloma models", where the extensive in vitro and in vivo preclinical studies with cell lines and patient samples indicate strong potential for this agent to have efficacy against MM expressing either or both of these antigens.

Recorded live at the Wind Operation and Maintenance Australia 2026 conference, Allen, Rosemary, Matthew, and Yolanda are joined by Thomas Schlegl for a panel discussion on where the Australian wind industry is headed over the next five years. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Alright, let’s get started. This is the, the final event of this three day marathon. Uh, where will we be in five years? And I have, uh, pretty much everybody from the Uptime podcast and Thomas Schlagel from eLog Ping. Uh. Uh, Rosie and I had a big argument before we all came about what we were going to be in five years, and Rosie’s and my opinion differed quite a bit just on, that’s, uh, that’s what led to me suggesting the personality test because yes, and that was, that’s actually a really good suggestion. So I know something about myself now, but, uh, I, I think talking to people here, watching the presentations. And having an American slash European perspective on it. I think every, everybody can chime in here. Australia’s probably on a better pathway than a lot of places. Yeah. Well, I know I’ve been back in Australia for about [00:01:00] five years, five years. Before that I was in Denmark. I left Australia. Because I was so like in despair about the state of renewables and also manufacturing and just doing smart engineering in Australia. Um, so yeah, when I came back five years ago, I was a bit shocked at how different things were in Australia. And I was also, you know, like I will say that it, we were, we were behind like way less mature than other, um, markets in terms of how we operated our wind energy assets. Um, and it’s changed so much in five years, so like a half day, if I’m making predictions for where we’ll be in five years time, I have to, you know, like use that as a, it, it’s probably gonna be more than you would think in five years, just based on how far we’ve already come in, in five years. Um, so yeah, I think that five years ago people were trusting a lot more in the full service agreements. Um, definitely there’s very few people who are still naive that that’s just, you know, um, a set and forget kind of thing that you [00:02:00] can do and not worry about it. Everybody’s now aware that you need to know, um, about your assets and we’re already to the point where there are like a lot of asset managers know so much, um, and, you know, have become real experts and really wasn’t, wasn’t the case five years ago. So. I’m hopeful for that. Um, you know, that it, it will continue and yeah, probably at a faster pace than, um, what we see elsewhere. I think Australia is a really attractive market, not just for developing new wind projects, but also for developing all of the kinds of supporting technologies, which is, you know, like a lot of the people here either using or developing those kind of technologies. And some of our challenges here make it the perfect place to, yeah, develop new text because. Things are, it’s really expensive to do repairs here. Um, the operating conditions are harsh and so things wear out and it just means that it’s, you can put together a positive business case for a new tech here much sooner than you could overseas. So I’m really [00:03:00] hopeful that we see, you know, like a whole lot of innovation, um, in, in those kinds of technologies that are gonna help wind energy get a lot more mature. And even hearing some of the answers from last year to this year, you see that shift. Uh, I was really shocked last year how much reliance there was on. The FSA and now I hearing a lot more discussion about, all right, we need to be shadow monitoring. We need to be looking at the, the, the data coming off, trying to hack, break into the passwords to get to the SCADA system, which was new, but I feel like very Australian thing to do. Matthew, you’ve been in the small business in Australia for, for several years in the wind business. What do you see? I mean, you’ve been in it like for five years now. Plus actually more than that, uh, I actually did my first wind farm around 20 oh 2001. Okay. Or 2002. Um, that was from a noise perspective. So I, I’ve seen things, you know, the full cycle. Um, you know, there were many years of [00:04:00]despair, the whole, um, stop these, stop these things. I’m actually featured, I was featured on Stop these things. So, um, don’t, don’t Google it. It was pretty horrible. So, um, we did a lot of work around infrasound and noise impacts and so there was many years which were, were pretty horrible. Um. Over that time, I sort of relate to my daughter. My daughter’s turning 21 soon. She is a beautiful girl, turning into an adult, a wonderful adult, and it’s, I think the wind industry is really growing, maturing, growing up, and you know, is wonderful to see. And I think we are, we’re only gonna get better, stronger. And I think one may, one note I made here is that now they’ve got wind, solar batteries. I just think it’s unstoppable, so I’m super optimistic that we’re only gonna keep, you know, raising that bar. Well, if you look at where Australia is compared to a lot of the places on the [00:05:00] planet, way ahead, in terms of renewable energy. I mean, you’ve got basically $0 in electricity for, because of how much solar there is, plus the batteries are coming in and, and the transmission’s coming online. And I’m talking to some people about, uh, what these new developments look like. If you’re trying to develop some of these projects in the United States, you’re not gonna be able to do them. There’s, there’s too many regulatory hurdles, and it seems like Australia has at least opened some of the doors to explore. Uh, people in America, the companies in Europe are gonna be watching Australia, I think in, in terms of where we go next. Because if Australia can pull off pretty much a renewable grid, which is where you’re headed, others will follow because it’s just a lower cost way of running a, running an electricity grid system. Yeah. Now I need to perform my, um, regular role of being a Debbie Downer. Um, I, I think that there’s, there’s big challenges and it’s definitely not, um, a case of [00:06:00] the status quo now is good enough to carry us through to a hundred percent renewables. Um, there are some big, big problems that need to be solved. Like, uh, solar plus batteries in Australia is, is going amazing and it’s gonna do a lot. It’s not gonna, it will be incredibly hard to get to, you know, a fully renewable grid that way. The problem with wind is at the moment, I mean, it’s getting more expensive to install wind now and we don’t only need to install new wind farms, we’ve also got existing wind farms that are retiring. So we need to either extend those or we need to, um, you know, build new wind farms in their place. So we do need to get better there. And then I think that the new technologies, like, you know, I’m the blades person and the bigger blades are bigger problems like, like dramatically. I don’t think that your average, um, wind farm owner or wannabe wind farm owner is aware, like actually how many more problems there are with big blades compared to smaller ones and. I think that, like I said earlier, I [00:07:00] think Australia’s a great place to get those technologies, um, you know, developed. But we, we need to do that. That’s not like a nice to have and oh, everything will be a little bit better, but if we can’t maintain our assets better and get more out of them, um, we also need improvements with manufacturing. But it’s not really an o and m thing. I won’t talk too much about it. But yeah, I think that like we can’t be remotely complacent. Well, I think in, in Europe, uh, Thomas, you actually spent several months in Australia, and you’re obviously from Austria, so it’s an Austria Australian connection. Do you see the differences between the Austrian market, the German market, and what’s happening here in Australia? What, what do you think of the comparison between the two? So, what I, what really was fascinating from was the speed of, um, improvements we see here in Australia. It. Um, just for me, wind industry in my young industry, sorry, was always rather slow in Europe and [00:08:00] like not really adopting. Um, and here, sorry. For example, last year you asked the question how many. Of the audience to use sensors for shadow monitoring and no hand was raised right. It was zero silence. And uh, this year we even had a few percentage on, on sensors on the, on the cido. So you see only within a year like this gradually graduated, improvements are happening and I think that makes such a, um, speed in, in improvements and that will. Close to the rescue again. Thank you. And that, um, that will bring Australia to a big advantage. Um, especially I think overtaking, uh, at a certain point, and it would be great to see in five years from now, um, maybe Europeans, Austrians, uh, coming to Australia to. [00:09:00] To learn and not the other way around. Yeah, and, and especially with Yolanda working for the biggest energy company in Denmark, uh, in America, you see how Americans react to change and, and the reluctance to move forward on some of the things we talked about this week, which are, do seem to be moving a little bit quicker. There is more an acceptance of CMS systems here. And on in the States, it seems like you have to really fight. A lot of times to get anybody to listen, to do something because it’s all, it’s financially driven in some aspects, but it’s sort of like, we don’t do that here, so we’re not gonna listen to it. What’s been your experience being on a, this is your first time in Australia, what, what has been your experience this week and what have you learned? I was very pleasantly surprised by just the amount of collaboration that everybody really wants to have here and the openness to, to do so, and to learn from each [00:10:00] other, um, and to accept just, you know, if you’ve seen an issue and or someone else has seen an issue, then you can really learn from each other. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to silo yourself as much as, as you typically do in the United States. I mean, it is a different culture, right? And so it’s just. Honestly, hats off to, to Australians for, for being able to, to work with each other, so, so well, yeah. The discussions out at the lunchtime and the coffee area were uniquely different than what we generally will see in the United States. And Matthew, you’ve been around a lot of that too, where it kinda gets a little clique. But here, I mean, obviously, I mean, not just human nature, but on some level I felt like, oh, there’s a lot of interaction happening and it’s really loud. So people are engaging with one another and trying to learn from one another, or at least connect. And I, I think in a lot of times in Europe, there’s not a lot of the connection until the, the drinking starts, you know, at about 10. Uh, but. Uh, Matthew, did you see that too? [00:11:00] Like I was really pleasantly surprised. That was a good thing to see here. Yeah. And in my former life as a consultant, I dealt with, you know, construction, uh, road rail, you know, I mining a whole range of industries. And, um, one of the reasons why I’ve stayed in wind is ’cause I, you know, I love the people, you know, I love you all. So, or, um, but no, I think, um, the. The collaboration, the willingness to talk, um, the willingness to share ideas. And I think, I think I’ve been super, super, super happy about the way the panels have run, you know, everyone’s willing to share. Um, yeah, I’m, I’m just stoked. Yeah, Rosie, this is all your fault, honestly, because Rosie was always the, the contrary opinion. So I would say something and Rosie would feel obligated to say something as the opposite. But when, when we all started this discussion about, uh, a, a wind turbine conference, you had been to a bad wind turbine conference in Australia and I had been to a really bad one in the States and we were just, okay, that’s enough. And the movement [00:12:00] toward, let’s get some information, let’s everybody interact with one another. Let’s, we will give all the presentations to people at the end of this so you can access data. You’re not spending a ton of money to come. That was a, a big part of the discussion, like, I’m spending $5,000 to listen to sales presentations for three days. I don’t want to do that anymore. We try to avoid that in this conference. Hopefully, if you notice that and, and, and. I guess the conference board is up here right now. Are we gonna do Woma 2027? Are we gonna decide that today? Or. Yes, yes, the website is live. Um, I also wanna take this opportunity to, um, thank the, the sponsors of the event. And I hope that you’ve noticed that it’s not like these aren’t the sponsors of normal events where they’re like, okay, we’ll give you a bunch of money and then we’re gonna stand up and talk at you for half an hour about our new product launch or whatever. Like these sponsors haven’t, they haven’t got back [00:13:00] in the traditional way that you, you would with a kind of, um, event. So I’m really grateful for the very high quality sponsors that we’ve got. And, um, yeah, I just, I, I dunno if I’m allowed to share a little bit about the, the economics of this event. Um, if we didn’t have the sponsors tickets would cost twice as much. So, um, that’s one thing. But then the other key thing that we. Really couldn’t do it without sponsors is that we didn’t, our event didn’t break even until about a week ago because everyone buys their tickets late. Um, so yeah, the, the, we would’ve been having heart attacks, um, months ago about our potential, you know, bankruptcy from running the event if it wasn’t for, um, yeah, the, the great sponsors. So thanks to everybody that did that. Um, and everybody that attended consider buying a ticket earlier next time. Um, I, I’m the worst. I often buy my ticket the day of, of, of an event. So it’s, you know, like it’s a pot calling the kettle black. But, um, yeah, that’s just a bit of the, [00:14:00] the reality. And we have a number of poll questions. Uh, let’s get producer Claire back there to throw ’em up on the screen. So while we’re doing that, we should really thank Claire. Claire has been amazing. Yeah. Thank you, Claire. So the emojis are from Claire. Claire, clearly here. Uh, how do you feel about the, the current state of the wind industry? Hopefully there’s more smiley faces after this week. Well, alright, we’re a hundred percent rosemary. We had to put the one with the, yeah. And for me personally, um, I used to feel a lot more optimistic when I worked in design and manufacturing. And then when I come into operations, that like automatically makes you feel a bit more pessimistic. And then me specifically, like I only get involved when really bad things are happening. And so sometimes for me, like it’s easy to think. [00:15:00] When technology is just not good enough and, you know, I need to find a new industry to move into. So, uh, it is good to talk, talk to other people and, you know, like bring my reality back to a kind of a midpoint. And I, I just like to say, I, I think, I mean maybe there’s been a bit of OE em bashing here maybe. Um. Um, however, we need really strong OEMs, so I just wanna put a shout out to the OEMs and say, yeah, we absolutely need you. So just keep doing it. You will keep doing better, so thank you. Yeah, it’s a difficult industry to be in and we put a lot of demands on them and they, they’re pushing limits, so yeah, they’re gonna run into problems. That’s fine. Let’s just find solutions for them. Alright, uh, next question, producer Claire. What is the best thing you learned at Woma? This is not multiple choice. You can write whatever you want. Stealing passwords. [00:16:00] Did any of us learn anything? Unexpected contracting? Oh yeah. Get the contract right? Oh yeah. Yeah. Dan was really good. Yeah, Dan was great about contracting, looking on the other side of that fence. Cybersecurity is not that big of an issue in Australia. That’s some big thing in Europe, so yeah, it is. I was surprised by the environmental factor in Australia. I was surprised about the birds. Yeah. Everyone who wasn’t in the birds workshop yesterday, Alan was freaking out about, about how Australian wind farms have to manage birds and um, you have to freeze a bird for 12 months. I don’t, where do you have to freeze it for a bird? I don’t know. But that, it just is a little odd, I would say. Yeah. All right, Rosemary, you gotta take away Rosemary’s phone. Alan’s personality test. Yeah, there we go. That was not me. Wind farm toilets was a good one. Thank you, Liz, for, for raising that. [00:17:00] Yeah, I know when I worked in, um, Europe and Canadian wind farms, I would have to strategize my liquid intake for the day. Balancing out tea will help keep me warm, but on the other hand. Did everybody meet up with someone who had a solution? That was part of the goal here is to put people with solutions in the room with people with problems and let you all sort it out. So hopefully that was one of the things that happened this week. Or if you haven’t connected here, be able to connect with over LinkedIn or over coffee later. And the networking on the app and networking page on the website. Right. So you can actually use that now that’s all live. Yeah. So you can, you can connect through there if you’ve selected to. To keep your contact information open. Yep. You can connect through there so it’s easy to, if you need somebody to find my or Matthew’s email, you can just find it right there and we’ll upload the presentations, as you said. Right. The presentations we uploaded. But you have to select into that, Matthew, is that right? Also, the speakers [00:18:00] have to approve them as well. Right. And the, and all the speakers, you know who you are. Can let us know if we can use your slide decks to public size them. I didn’t see anything there that looked highly classified, so I think that would be fine. Alright. This is really interesting. Convince OEMs to install better pitch bearings. That’s very true. Okay, thanks you for that. Claire, what’s the next one? What do you wish you learned more about? So Matthew did a tour before the conference several months ago. And, and went to a lot of the operators and said, what would you like to hear about? So the things that were, uh, the seminar or the different workshops and all that were the result of talking to each of the operators about what you would like to see. So hopefully we covered most of them. Uh, obvious There. There’s some new things. Gear boxes. Yeah. I figured that one was coming. Tower retrofits. Okay. Good, good, [00:19:00] good. ISPs? Yeah. Life extension. Yeah. A lot of life extension. I agree. Well, we’re gonna run into that to the United States also. Asbestos. I’ve read some things about that in Australia. Okay. Which leading protection work by name. I do, I do have, well, lemme see. I do know that answer, but you’re gonna have to talk to Rosemary to get the, the key to the vault there. I I also think that you can’t assume that it’s gonna work in Australia. I think that, that like really seriously, I, I wouldn’t, um. I wouldn’t replace my entire wind farms leading edge protection based on what worked well in Europe and America. So, um, I would highly suggest, um, getting in touch with me and or bigger to get involved in a trial if you, that’s a problem for you. Yeah, definitely get involved in the trial. Uh, more data is better and if you do join that trial, you will have the keys to the castle. They will tell you how all the other pro uh, blades went. Uh, trainings and [00:20:00] skills, obviously that’s a, that’s a international one. When does ROI really happen? Yeah. Yep. We hear that quite a bit. Needs have proven good products for leading edge erosion. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So the que I guess one of the questions is, is that we did not on purpose, did not have any vendor things. I haven’t mentioned my product once this week. I, because I don’t want to, you know, that’s not the point of this conference, but should we. I don’t know. I mean, that’s a, should we have people standing up and I don’t know if it’s standing out there, but able to, to trial things. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree with what. I, I don’t, I don’t want that. Oh, yeah. No, I don’t want that. But it’s not my conference. Right. It’s, it’s everybody who c comes and wants to participate. What do you wanna see? Do you wanna see 10 leading edge products out in the hallway or, I didn’t mind that people were putting like stickers and like little knickknacks out on [00:21:00] tables. That was fun. Rosemary’s got a, a satchel full of them. Alright, Claire, is that the last one? There’s one more. All right. Hang on for one more. What’s your biggest takeaway from Woma? That you’re gonna buy your tickets early for WMA 2027, hopefully, and you’re gonna sponsor. I had a lot of people come up to me and say they would like to sponsor next year. And that’s wonderful. That will really keep the, the cost down because we’re not making anything off of this. I’m losing money to be here, which is totally fine ’cause I think this is a noble effort. Uh, but we will keep the cost as low as we can. We have an upgraded venue from last year. If you attend last year we were at the library, which was also a very nice facility, but this is just another level. Mm. Um, and the website has the ability to register interest in sponsorship. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve already got, uh, Jeremy’s already shook my hand. He’s already committed. Yeah. [00:22:00] Uh, I think we’ll have a lot of three pizzas on, on sponsorship for next year, and that’s good. Uh, that tells you there’s some value to be here and, and, uh, connect stickers, Rosemary stickers. There you go. I like whoever put calories up there. That’s funny. Yeah. You know the thing about, uh, this city is you can eat and it’s so dang good. You can’t do that in the states. You can’t just walk around in a random. Downtown like Detroit, Chicago. There are places you can eat there, but every place you walk into in this city is really good food. It’s crazy. Yeah. It’s, it’s uh, sort of addictive. I’m gonna have to go home on Saturday or not gonna fit in my seat. Um, alright. This is great. Yeah. We really love, um, constructive feedback. I think we’re all, or at least. Vast majority of us are engineers. We like to know about problems and fix them. So, um, most of us can’t have our feelings hurt easily. So, you [00:23:00] know, be very, very direct with your feedback. And, um, yeah, I mean the event should be different every year, right? Like, we don’t wanna do the exact same thing every year, so, um, it will change. Yeah. Yeah. And there is a survey going out as well, so Georgina will send out a survey. All right. So those surveys go to who? Matthew, are they going to you or are they going to all attendees and go? I think it goes back to Georgina, but we’ll, okay. Yeah. Great. So if you do get a, a form to fill out, please fill it out. That helps us for next year. Are we gonna be back in the same city? I say Yes. Yes. Yeah, this place is great. Sydney is also lovely. I spent an hour there at the airport. It was quite nice, but it was long enough. As I learned from people from Melbourne that Sydney is not their favorite place to go. So I guess we’re, we’re here next year. Is there anything else we need to talk about? Um, no. I mean, I’ve just been, uh, my favorite thing about this event is like the, the size of it and that people, uh, like very closely related in what we’re interested in that. It’s not like a, [00:24:00] you can put any two random people together and then we’ll have an interesting conversation. So I’ve really enjoyed all of the, you know, dozens of conversations that I’ve had this week. And, um, yeah. So thank you everybody for showing up with a open and collaborative, um, yeah. Frame of mind. It’s, yeah, couldn’t be done without everybody here. We do have a little bit of an award ceremony here for Rosemary, so we actually put together. A collage of videos over the last, um, five years. Uh, this is news to me. What? Yeah. Surprise. All right. Let it roll. Claire. Champion Rosie Barnes is here. Everybody. Climate change is a problem that our politicians don’t seem to be trying. Particularly hard to solve. This used to frustrate me until I realized that as an engineer, I have the power to [00:25:00] change the world, and unlike some politicians, I choose to use my powers for good. So I made a gingerbread wind turbine, I mean, a functional gingerbread, wind turbine, functional and edible. Everything except for the generator is edible. Alan, what were some of your takeaways from our talk with, uh, with Rosie? Well, I just like the way she thinks she thinks in terms of systems, not in terms of components. And I, I think that’s a, for an engineer is a good way to think about bigger problems. On today’s episode, we’ve got, well, some exciting news. Number one. Rosemary, uh, Barnes will be joining us here today as our co our new co-host. Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having me. So, you know, one wind turbine with, um, wooden 80 meter long wooden blades. Yeah. Like, that’s so cool. What a great engineering challenge or, you know, craftsmanship challenge, um, there, but, you know, I’d like to see one [00:26:00]wooden wind turbine blade, but not, not more than that. It’s a, it’s a cool, it’s a cool novelty. And then burn it, right? If you burn it, then you’ll catch the carbon. We need someone within the Australian wind industry to start up a, a better conference. Um, you know, it should be allowing you to kind of put your finger on the pulse and figure out, you know, what, what’s the vibe of wind energy in Australia at the moment? Um, what are the big problems people are having and then, you know, some potential solutions, some people talking about things that are coming up that you might not have heard about yet. I just think that it’s much easier to get a good value conference from a, like a, a small organization that is really dedicated to the, um, topic of the, of the conference. So as part of the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast, Rosemary, the YouTube ci, these little gold plaques. So this is actually, this is your first gold plaque, but you have two [00:27:00] silver plaques also. ’cause engineering with Rosie reached a 100,000 subscribers. Uh, the uptime also reached a hundred thousand subscribers a while ago, but we reached 1 million. This is the first time I, we’ve been in person, but I could actually hand you this award. So congratulations Zi. Very, very well done. Thank you. This is treasured and, um. Yeah, added in. Nothing like that has ever happened to me before, so I’m bit overwhelmed. I, I’m interested to know, we got that Wheel of Fortune footage from, ’cause I thought that was lost. Lost forever. It’s over. It’s on YouTube. Sadly. It is. It’s 24. All the episodes Rosemary competed in the Wheel of Fortune. She was on four times. Six times. Six times. Sorry. There’s only four available on the internet. You may have white scrub tube. I wanna massaging Lazy Boy. Is that your husband? He made me get rid of it. He is like, that thing is hideous. And [00:28:00] it was, yeah. Thank, thank you so much. And I mean, yeah, this is the, the uptime wind energy. Um. Yeah, podcast achievement. It’s, um, it’s crazy how, how popular that, um, it’s in insanely popular since we crossed the 1 million mark that was a while ago. We’re up to 1.6 million right now. We’ll cross 2 million this year. I know it’s, it’s clear Claire’s reason. It mostly clear and it honestly is. Uh, but wind energy is a big part of the energy future, and as I’m realizing now, uh, when you start to reach out to people, you realize how important it is for the planet and for individual countries that wind energy is part of their electricity grid. So the, the information we exchange here this week is very valuable and reach out to others. I think that’s part of this wind industry and Matthew’s pointed out many times, is that we share. So unlike other places, uh. Wind energy likes to work together. And that’s great to hear and it’s great to participate in. So I wanna thank everybody here for attending, uh, this conference. Thank you to all the sponsors. Uh, you [00:29:00] made this thing possible. Uh, as Matthew has pointed out, we’ll be at WMA 2027. The website is live. So, uh, listen to Rosie. Please register now. Uh, and uh, yeah. Thank you so much for, for being with us. And we’ll see you in February right here. Thank you.

Featuring perspectives from Dr Natalie S Callander and Dr Paul G Richardson, including the following topics: Introduction: Clinical Trials We LOVE to Discuss (0:00) Mechanism of Action of Cereblon E3 Ligase Modulators (CELMoDs) (8:42) Available Efficacy Data with CELMoDs in the Management of Relapsed/Refractory Multiple Myeloma (MM) (15:59) Extramedullary Disease (19:23) Spectrum and Management of CELMoD-Associated Adverse Events (30:12) Ongoing Phase II and III Trials Evaluating CELMoDs for MM (34:53) CME information and select publications

C'est peut-être un détail pour vous… mais pour moi, ça veut dire beaucoup.Un nouveau rendez-vous de La Cohorte où l'on revient sur des phrases entendues dans les interviews du podcast. Des phrases qu'on aurait tort de laisser filer car elles révèlent beaucoup sur la manière de construire son business freelance!Aujourd'hui, on se replonge dans l'interview de Philippe, ingénieur et data scientist hyper spécialisé en maintenance prédictive pour les PME industrielles.Je reviens sur deux passages clés :– quand Philippe explique pourquoi l'hyper spécialisation ne ferme pas des portes… mais permet au contraire d'être trouvé au bon moment par les bons prospects,– et quand il montre comment il utilise des cas clients concrets pour prouver qu'il est la solution à un problème précis, plutôt qu'un profil “compétent parmi d'autres”.Deux détails qui invitent à un exercice salutaire : arrêter de réfléchir uniquement à ce que tu sais faire… et te demander quelles sont les alternatives réelles de tes prospects s'ils ne passent pas par toi.CDI, autre freelance, internalisation, IA… Plus les options sont nombreuses, plus il devient stratégique de mieux définir ton terrain de jeu.Et toi: pense au dernier prospect avec la/lequel-le tu as échangé, si elle ou il ne bosse pas avec toi demain, quelles sont ses alternatives?Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

A practice won't truly thrive until its team members are aligned and attached to your company's purpose. Tiff and Kristy go into what it takes to gain collective buy-in from those who keep your practice humming, including being reminded of fundamental desires, embracing vulnerability, understanding motivators, and a ton more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. I'm so excited for you to be here today. You know, I'm   always excited. I love podcasting. I have loved doing this over the course of all of the years that Kiera and I have been putting these out. They are so much fun. It is so cool to reach you guys and it is amazing to get the time in with our consultants. And I'm bringing her live to you, well not live, I guess. It's live for me. It's recorded for you. But I'm bringing her all this month for you because...   We just busted them out in one day, if I'm honest with you, Kristy. Thank you for being here. Thank you for blocking your afternoon for podcasting with me. And I'm excited for this topic. How are you and how excited are you for this topic?   The Dental A Team (00:41) Excited and I'm doing well. It's not 49 degrees in the morning. It's actually 71 here Oh 72 now, so know that's a little chilly to us, but I'm excited the sun's shining and We get our time together. So I'm excited   The Dental A Team (00:49) ⁓   That's fair. I love walks and I was doing morning walks until like mid December and I was like, I can't, I don't know if it's because I'm an Arizona girl or if it's because I have, you know, thyroid stuff and Hashimoto's, but that chill, as soon as it hits my body, I'm done for. You don't want to be around me. You don't want to know me. And so I have not been going outside in the morning nor later in the evening because that Arizona desert does something   different when that sun goes down. So very happy to hear 71. Those are my, I really, think my sweet spot is like 73 to 76. That's my ideal. So if we can find a place that's always 73 to 76, I say we jet. That's where we're going. We just stay there.   So I love this topic today because, I mean, I love every topic we go through, because you tend to really spin it for me and make everything fun. ⁓ But I love the emotional side of life and the buy-in side, and today really talking about how to get teams bought into your big why. And I like that because I love purpose. I like everyone to have a purpose. And I think when a practice owner   knows what they're after, they have their purpose, it allows the team to then see their purpose within that that why within the owner's purpose. And we actually talked about this a little bit. Now that I say that, it's like I've repeated that we talked about this at the Mastermind in September. And it was actually fun. Anyone who was there will hopefully remember maybe recap will remind you. But Kira was talking we were talking about   writing their why's like what are they doing? What's their purpose? And Kiera spoke about hers and it was really really emotional because Kiera and I get emotional   it was fun to see for her how her   purpose and her why came to life when she spoke about it because I think it morphed a little bit as she was saying it but then it was really fun because she was able to see how my purpose   is fulfilled within her purpose in that I think for owners, it's scary to think that your team has a drive or a why or a want, and it can feel like everyone wants to be an entrepreneur. And if they have their own thing, they're gonna leave. And some of them will, that will happen. I've seen, I had a practice.   The Dental A Team (03:34) Hmm.   The Dental A Team (03:39) She was there in September. She'll remember, she'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I had a practice, I went, we did a stellar meeting. ⁓ it was so much fun. So much fun. She has the best practice, she has the best why. She's just an incredible human. Two days later, ⁓ she had a team member quit because she wanted to open up her own business and she wanted to do hair. And the inspiration from talking about why's and talking about what are we doing with our lives.   prompted her to quit and start a hair salon. She just, I was like, I am sorry and not sorry at the same time. So it can happen. And I think that's the fear for a lot of people. But watching Kira open up and then watching Kira get so emotional over how my why and my purpose is fulfilled within what I do, within my position.   The Dental A Team (04:15) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (04:33) it was like something morphed and changed for her and we all got to see it as like this butterfly effect. But I say that because I can't, I can have my own purpose and my own why, we all do. But when you can see how it aligns with the company that you're working with and how you can serve your purpose and your why within the job that you're in, that's really cool. And I think Kristy, for me at least,   personally as a team member, that helps keep me tethered to the job. Because if I don't know what the why is, where we're going, what are we growing for, why are we tracking these numbers, like what's the big deal, and I just wanna help people, I'm gonna move on until I find my place. And the find your place is being in alignment and being attached to the purpose that your company is serving and driving.   And that was a really long-winded way of introducing the topic. But I thought as soon as I said those things, I was like, oh my gosh, the September event. And so I hope all the doctors listening who were at the September event remember, because it was a really magical time for Dental A Team. And for those of you coming to future events, just buckle up, because there's always something really cool attached. But Kristy, passing the mic over to you, what are your thoughts? And really gaining team member buy-in, what do you?   What did I prompt for you in all of those words I just spewed?   The Dental A Team (06:02) Yeah. Yeah, and   all those words.   Tiff,   I know we were talking numbers earlier, so hopefully they were listening to that too, but the numbers are our gauge, but the buy-in has to be emotional. It's gotta be vulnerable and it's gotta go back to why you do what you do. Like, why'd you get into dentistry? And doctors why maybe, I mean, you said it, doctors why may be different than team members, but.   I venture to say almost every one of us that got into dentistry have some sort of passion for caring, you know? And we gotta get back to the root of that. And we even talked about ⁓ finances and getting to the emotional why. It's no different. If you want our teams to be bought in, you've gotta get to your emotional why. And you doctors have to be the North Star in that.   You can have leadership teams, right? But they've got to be very clear on the why. And it doesn't mean that our direction won't change, because it could change. But that intentional, why do you do what you do? Why do you wake up and get out of bed? We have to identify that.   The Dental A Team (07:17) I love that. You're spot on. And something shifts and changes, I think, for a person when they key in on that. And it's not just going with the motions. We can go through the motions in life very easily. And I think you finish high school and you go to undergrad and you go to school and you go to whatever. You go through dental school. You become a dentist. You do the thing and then you buy the practice. And it's like you get there and you're like, why did I do all that?   Right? They forget. They forget why they did the thing. And I listened to a Simon Sinek thing not too long ago. Well, you know, I love listening to him, his speeches. But one thing that he's been able to key in on for purpose is going back to your high school self. Because in high school really is when we decided what we wanted to do and we tagged it to a work.   like to a physical thing, like what is the job we're going to hold? But somewhere in there, our high school self wanted to serve a purpose and we attached the job to that purpose. So if we can kind of think back to our high school self and really think what did we love? What inspired us? What did we like doing? Where did we feel the most fulfilled and satisfied at that age?   that helps figure out what it was that you're intending to do in life. What is that purpose? Because the purpose isn't, this might rock a few of you, the purpose isn't to do the best dentistry in Kentucky and have smiles that last forever. That's not why you're here. You were not put on this earth to.   Do fillings you might be doing fillings, but that's the actionable piece. That's the what? but what's the why and We actually Kristy shared this recently with a client and Really like I feel like this kind of work on your purpose your your emotionally driven purpose is What can? re-inspire dentists   who might feel like they don't know what they're doing anymore. Why am I even here? Why did I become a dentist? Or teams that are like, what are we doing? Why are we pushing? What are we even after? But that emotionally driven why you can see where in your purpose, the what that you're doing, the job that you're doing, might be satisfying and fulfilling that space.   The Dental A Team (10:05) Wow, that was big. And yeah, you're absolutely right. We just went through this exercise and when you start feeling burnt out, it's great time to go back and revisit that why to reignite that fire and remember why you're doing it because you are going to go through the ebb and flow and the hard times to get there. But when you can let that be your burning desire in your gut, the rest of it's going to fall back into place. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (10:33) Yeah, yeah.   Thank you. I love all of this work. It's part of like who I am as a human is to help people figure out the inspiration that makes them love what they do every day. That is what I said in September. is my purpose is to inspire people to love what they do in life. So this stuff lights me up. Like I know I'm in my purpose when I get to talk about this stuff. So that's very easy. But how do you   Once we key in on that, Kristy, how do you suggest or coach doctors in sharing that with the team? Because it is incredibly vulnerable, especially when you figure out that your purpose has nothing to do with dentistry. Dentistry is the engine behind the purpose, a lot of, we talked about this earlier too, a lot of people are afraid to share those kinds of things. They're afraid to share the numbers, they're afraid to...   The Dental A Team (11:13) it is.   The Dental A Team (11:27) It's scary to be vulnerable and it's scary, it can be scary to inspire a team to want their own purposes too, again, because you don't, you're like scared they're gonna leave or go start a hair salon. But what do you, how do you coach them on that and how to be vulnerable?   The Dental A Team (11:46) Yeah. Well, I think it's funny that you said the hair salon, first of all, because that person can be a great referral source back to the practice. So it might not be all bad. That too. Yeah. And with that being said, it is vulnerable. And what's coming to my mind is how many times do   The Dental A Team (11:50) I do too.   That's fair. I was thinking that was the opposite of you. ⁓   The Dental A Team (12:11) And again, doctors, I'm not trying to pick on you, but how many times do they come to us and say, they're just here for a paycheck?   The Dental A Team (12:18) Mm. All the time.   The Dental A Team (12:21) And maybe we shouldn't make that wrong.   The Dental A Team (12:24) Yeah, I say   that. ⁓ my gosh, yes, drop the mic. I say that all the time. We are here for a paycheck. We have to pay our bills.   The Dental A Team (12:28) Yeah.   Yeah, and doctors paying something too, which means I think my soft spot goes back to sometimes doctors are afraid to say they're doing this for a quality of life or a legacy of life that they're going to leave and it is tied to money. And I don't think we need to be shameful of that anymore. I truly don't. And I think we need to give permission because even if I am here for a paycheck, that doesn't mean I'm going to serve differently. Right.   ⁓ It's okay and let that be the motivator because if they're getting that, they may serve even better.   The Dental A Team (13:13) Yeah, yeah, and you made me think of to speak to all the team members who are listening. For me, when I hear that somebody wants to a legacy or a legacy dental practice where their kids, if they decide to be dentists, can come be dentists, like this lifestyle, I want this lifestyle for my family. Well, I'm helping serve that I'm helping provide that. And in turn,   I'm also growing. I'm also reaping benefits of them succeeding. So I would much rather work for a doctor who's driven to keep going and keep growing than someone who's like, we're just here to do the fillings. Like cash your check, because I'm like, are we though? Are we going to be here in a year? Like is this stable? The doctor who's like, yeah, I want to build a legacy and I want to impact this community and my family in   XYZ ways. I'm like, cool, you're bought in. That means this is stable. I can get bought in on that because my family is going to grow as your family grows. And I can see myself here for a long time. And I think that's that team buying and that vulnerability of this is why I'm here because I'm here to serve my family. I'm here to pay my bills. I'm here to make sure Brody goes to college. I'm here to make sure that he has everything that he wants and desires. Ask my   The Dental A Team (14:16) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (14:42) checking account. That is my goal. Brody is happy and it's served by doing things like this. And if I want my goal, if my goal is to leave a legacy and be the entrepreneur who leaves a legacy for my family, that people can pick up that business and they don't have to work for anyone, then that's going to look different. I'm going go open a hair salon. I'm going to go do that thing. But I'm going to do that regardless of you telling me.   The Dental A Team (14:44) you   The Dental A Team (15:10) your purpose and your why, it's gonna happen no matter what. So don't be afraid to share it, just know you're serving, you're providing a space where people can grow. Whether they grow with you forever or they grow to a place where they're like, cool, I can go do that thing that I've always wanted to do, that's incredible. You got somebody to a point where they could go fulfill their life dreams, holy cow.   That's really freaking cool. And hopefully in the meantime, in the middle of that, you guys built some awesome systems that somebody can come in and learn. Because not everything's a guarantee, but the way you said that, Kristy, is just spot on. That vulnerability piece and allowing the team to decide if that's what they're here for or not, instead of leaving in the shadows, never speaking of it, and hoping that they stay anyway.   The Dental A Team (16:05) Yeah. How many times have you, I mean, I haven't worked at a lot of jobs, so I'm pretty loyal to my jobs, but for people that have gone, and I've interviewed people and hired people, so I'm speaking to myself in this too, but how many times have we shared our why in that process?   You know, and it all starts there. And you said something before, the what. The what may be getting to three million this year. And that's all we ever hear instead of the why. If we hear the why, then we can get behind the what. And then I like to say the core values just serve as how we behave to get to the why.   The Dental A Team (16:48) Yes.   Yes, yes, I love that because oftentimes core values are how we like how they want the community to view us. And so, you know, where we have integrity and we do great dental care and we have your dental, ⁓ your dentistry in mind and your dental health and is our is our heart. I'm like, I don't know how to show up to that. I don't know how to I don't know how to exude your dental health is my heart because it's not I don't.   I'm not here, I think dentistry is really cool, but I didn't go to dental school because I don't want to be a dentist. So that's spot on. It's hard to know what we're aiming for and what we're going for if we don't know the why or the what. A lot of times we're not trying the what either. So if we don't know what our goals are, if we don't know what our inspiration is, I tell people all the time, motivation is short lived. I can motivate you for a short amount of time, but if I can inspire you, inspiration lives inside of you.   Motivation comes and goes, it dies. It dies. That's why gym, you know, people who aren't inspired to go to the gym, they're not inspired by the change that the gym can make in their lives, like the steak, right? We talked about the steak and having ⁓ an all-on-four so we can eat a steak. If there's not inspiration tied to the health, the motivation to get up and go to the gym will die. It will fade. Every January, you're gonna be re-motivated to start the gym again. But if there's not inspiration living inside of you,   to be healthier, it will die off. So if I'm not inspired by the work that I'm doing, which if I'm doing new patient intake forms, like give me something to be inspired about. that's, you know, this can get really boring. Insurance verifications, why am I doing this? What difference does it make? Give me some inspiration so that I can attach to that and then give me the path of how I show up and live it every day. Those are your core values. So you need your   your mission vision, your why, what are we, why am I here, your inspiration, and then how do I show up to that?   The Dental A Team (18:55) I agree with you 100%. And I think you said something that we failed to realize. I wish I could remember the name of the book now, but there was one and he treats people that have heart attacks. And he's like, if you think I could motivate people, I should be able to motivate people because they're at best door, right? And I'm gonna try to get them to change eating or this.   The Dental A Team (19:06) Okay.   Yes.   The Dental A Team (19:20) they do for two weeks or two months because they remember what it was like to have a heart attack, but then they go back to the behavior. So even when we're faced with our own mortality, you just, I mean, it proves like we, it lives and dies. Yeah. Yep.   The Dental A Team (19:36) We're complacent.   Yeah, muscle memory sets in and it's easier to stay where you're at even in uncomfortableness. And even if your life is uncomfortable, it's easier to stay here than to make the change because you don't know what's on the other side of change. It's an unknown. You can't quite even imagine it or what you imagine you can't guarantee is going to happen. So it's easier to stay in the uncomfortable because it's what you know. There's no questions. It's gonna stop.   It's uncomfortable. It's easier to stay here and even face your own mortality than to say, okay, I'm gonna do this thing and whatever happens on the other side, I'm okay with, because that's scary.   The Dental A Team (20:17) Yep.   Well, I think the other thing, Tiff, that we failed to really tap into is you recognize it and you do it once. And how many times do we get with our clients and we're like, what is your what? Well, it's written down somewhere or it's in the drawer. Like you've got to revisit it and make it come alive or you just forget. And it's not front and center. And then that's when you get the burnout. And that's when you, you know, we've got to get back to that core and revisit it. So   I challenge you every time you have a team meeting, bring it up, talk about it. How are we living it? What are we doing that's in alignment with that and serving it? Because that's what's gonna inspire you to keep going. And so often, as a leader, that's one of my favorite things. How inspiring are you being in this moment? How inspiring am I being if I'm squatting, you're not doing this, you're not doing that. That's not inspiring change.   We talk about it all the time in hygiene. You say you're not flossing every day. Well, no, I just told you I'm not flossing. That's not inspiring me to floss every day. Right? So again, I just think putting a little spin and making sure you know your buy-in and then also revisit it. Don't put it in a drawer. ⁓ I once learned, and again, I apologize where I don't have the statistic behind me.   The Dental A Team (21:25) Yeah. Yeah.   resource.   The Dental A Team (21:45) They say, or resource, yeah, they say if you state your goal, you're a certain percentage ⁓ to achieve it. Is it James Clear? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe give them credit with credits on it. With that though, if you write it down, you're even exponentially higher. And if you say it, write it down and share it with somebody even more so.   The Dental A Team (21:55) I think so. Yeah. It might be atomic habits.   The Dental A Team (22:14) And then if you revisit it frequently, those are the people that really hit their goals.   The Dental A Team (22:16) Yeah.   And I challenge you to, you, meaning everyone and even myself, to consider goals that we're not willing to share with other people. It's much easier to tell ourselves that we're gonna do something and then not do it than to tell other people that we're gonna do something and then not do it. We will hold ourselves to a higher level of accountability if we vocalize it to people outside of ourselves, because we're okay to lie to ourselves. I'm okay. I'm okay to have.   low personal integrity until I can't take that anymore, until it hurts too much, but I won't do that public facing. So I encourage you guys to evaluate that to us there. Is there an unspoken goal that maybe if we just said it out loud and wrote it down and had some accountability partners around us, would we actually do it? Just like I said, I was gonna do a pull-up and let me tell you how many times Erin asks me if I've practiced for it.   The Dental A Team (22:51) Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (23:14) You know?   The Dental A Team (23:14) I love it. You know, Tiff, I had a client one time that ⁓ she wrote, she was in a pretty tough spot financially and she wrote a check to herself, pulled it out a few years later and I mean, granted, visited through the way, did some of the things we talked about, but pulled it back out and it was like, holy cow, that she thought that was so undoable.   The Dental A Team (23:27) Mm, I love that.   The Dental A Team (23:42) and then it was surpassed. So challenge, I challenge our listeners.   The Dental A Team (23:44) ⁓ Yeah.   Yeah, I like it. Thank you. This was a fun. These are my favorite. You know that these are my favorite topics and I love having someone who's of the same mindset and I guess path of leadership. We listen to so much stuff and so many people and read so many books. So I love bouncing this stuff with you, Kristy. Thank you. And I think if we summed it up, I would say the biggest the action item from today is to sit down.   and get in touch with your purpose. And no, I know, Kristy, we've talked to a few clients, but specifically a client we worked with together that we had to stress that it's not perfect. It may not be perfect. It may take you months to really dial it in, but just start. You have to start somewhere. And oftentimes we hold ourselves back because we think we're not ready for perfect yet. It's not done. I don't have it like...   formulated yet. It's not my brain hasn't finished. Well, your brain's not going to finish if you don't get it on paper. Once you get it on paper, it's out of your brain and your brain can then process other things and other things come to light. So that would be my challenge. and Kristy, thank you again for today, for the whole day. Thank you. And thank you for just all of the, all of the light that you shed on this topic in general. think we can.   We can see lot of brilliance in that. So thank you for being here today, Kristy.   The Dental A Team (25:15) Yeah, thank you for ⁓ having the conversation with me.   The Dental A Team (25:19) Yeah, it's my favorite. I'll do this all day long. One care is like, what do you love? This is what I love. So how do we do that? But anyways, you guys, know, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If you are looking for advice, you're looking for guidance. If you're a client, obviously reach out to your consultant. We all dabble in this stuff. We all do the leadership. We all have those paths. And if you're not yet a consultant or someone who's going to be a listener forever, that's   cool too, just know we're here, reach out. We love this stuff, we are passionate about serving the dental community in the best ways possible and reaching as many people as we possibly can. That's why we started the podcast years and years ago. So reach out to us, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com Drop us a review below, let us know what you loved about today and honestly, Kristy and I would love to hear from you guys. Again, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, tell them, send this to Tiff and Kristy. We would love to hear from you guys on what is your why?   What is your purpose? What's your inspiration? And how are you gonna use it? I, truth be told, would love to see those emails. I know, Kristy, you would too. awesome. All right, guys, go do the things. Go be inspirational and check back with us. Let us know how your teams do. Thanks so much.

As property management faces rapid technological disruption, what happens to the businesses that refuse to adapt… or the ones that go all-in on AI and eliminate the human element entirely?  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Joe Oliveri in Brisbane, Australia to unpack the accelerating AI revolution and what it means for the future of property management. With over 30 years in the industry and 16 years as an international real estate business coach, Joe shares why he believes the next three years will determine which companies survive, and which disappear.  They explore the shift from traditional property manager roles to data-driven client relationship managers, how AI can transform processes like lease renewals, the risks of deepfakes and security threats, and why the winning formula will be a strategic blend of technology and human connection.   You'll Learn (00:00) Introduction to AI in Property Management  (00:40) The Evolution of Property Management  (01:58) The Impact of AI on Property Management  (05:35) Integrating AI with Human Interaction  (10:30) AI's Role in Tenant Management  (14:17) The Need for Verification in AI  (16:30) The Future of AI in Property Management  (21:44) Consequences of Ignoring AI  (25:43) Finding Balance: AI and Human Roles Growth  Quotables "If this industry does not change and truly understand AI, we're going to be irrelevant." "Three years is all we've got to make the changes."  "AI isn't something that they can go back to their office and say, we're going to build this AI. Let the experts do it." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:00) that companies will need to be able to make to keep up and really frankly, survive. It's recording.   We can time up. Shifts in layout. Let's count. All right. You think it's going to work there or should we hold that? Well, we'll probably have to do this. All right. Cool. No introduction. Well, no. Just do it. I'm saying not the full intro that you normally do the way you read the entire thing. Just do a quick. You're not going to have all that when we're going to send it. OK. Do an intro, but you're not going to do the normal intro. All right.   Put those somewhere. Hang them on your shirt or do something. Okay. That's very Brisbane. Well you have to fit in. When in Brisbane, do like Brisbane. Right, so we are... It wasn't pretty. Okay. Five, four, three, two... If you can see the camera, it can see you.   Can you see the camera? can. You don't... can. Okay. Alright, you ready? Five, four, three, two, one. Alright, so I'm Jason Hull. This is Sarah Hull with DoorGrow and we are Hangout with Joe Oliveri. And we're in Brisbane. Brizzy. Brizzy, yeah. And you can't see but we're overlooking the beautiful city and the river right now.   And what is this, a wine room? Yeah, this is our wine cellar. Private wine cellar. Private wine cellar. Okay. And so we're going to be chatting today about AI, the future, and how that's going to impact and affect property management. So, Jill, why don't you give people a little bit of background on yourself and who you are and how you got into property management.   Yeah well that's a long story but I'll make it short. So I've been in the industry for about 30 years now so it makes me feel old when I say that. ⁓ But for the last 16 years I've been a real estate business coach and I've been lucky enough to coach people in Australia and the USA so I get a really good oversight of what's going on in the world. ⁓ But you know my focus for the last 16 years has been   where is this industry going and how can we help businesses to get there and what do need to do? So basically, yeah, for the last 30 years, I've been doing property management and yeah, I think it's exciting where it's heading and through that journey, I met you guys, which is wonderful. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, fantastic. We've been able to have you out at one of our conference events and have you speak and yeah, it's been delightful.   ⁓ I know, I mean, in 30 years, you've seen a lot of changes, but it's speeding up. Like we're in the middle of this AI revolution right now. Everything's changing dramatically. And so what are some of the things that you're noticing? And you have a process software called Thrusos, which we use to run our own operational side of our business. ⁓ What are some of the things that you are right now?   thinking are going to happen and you're trying to figure out. Yeah, well, I'm actually concerned about the future for property management in a positive way. If you can kind of like say that. Because what I'm seeing is we are going through rapid change. I remember when I started in the industry 30 years ago, we were just introducing property management software. Everyone was still using spreadsheets and you know.   paper documents and all sorts of things. ⁓ Carbon copy leases, know, that's how far back we go. And there was major pushback on property management software. And the pushback probably took about five years for the industry to completely transition to understanding you had to use software. Well, we don't have the luxury of five years anymore because my belief is it's changing so rapidly.   And it's the consumer expectations that are going to force change that if this industry does not change and truly understand AI, we're going to be irrelevant. So I believe in three years time, we're going to see completely different roles in the way that we do things. in the next, like leading up to that three years,   I believe that in the first year, we're going to see probably about 40 % of businesses starting to struggle and disappear. They're losing managements, clients are going elsewhere because they're expecting AI and seamless processes and interactions and tasking. And then that will speed up. And by the second year, we'll see 80%.   And then we'll only have a small percentages. I know this seems like doomsday, but it's a reality. Only a small percentage of existing businesses that are around today who will be around in three years time. If they do not adopt AI and AI is very broad. So they've got to understand AI, but you know, that's my belief. That's what I'm seeing as well. So yeah, you know, we've got to sit up and take notice.   Yeah. And I think a lot of the things that I've been noticing, some people kind of shift right away and some people are a little bit more reluctant to shift. Yes. And I think the ones that it's almost you need to find the balance. You don't want to go all in and all AI and you don't want to have no AI. You want to kind of find the right balance and that happy medium and really figure out what is the best way to utilize AI.   and have a human component. Because I do not believe it will be able to be all AI. I just, think when it really comes down to it, it is a relationship business. It's a human to human contact business. really when things go wrong, humans want to talk with other humans who understand. They don't want, have you ever been on the phone and you're going, agent, agent, representative, and it's not.   understanding and you're like, just get me to the human. do I, what button do I need to push? What option is it that I the human? And I think that will continue, that will prevail. However, AI is such a powerful tool that I think we just need to figure out what's the most complimentary way that the humans and the AI can interact together to provide an amazing experience so that the tenants are happy and the clients are happy and the property management business is happy.   really be able to figure out what's the best way to do this. And something that you were telling me yesterday, I went, ⁓ she is so smart for doing that. Can you talk a bit about your, ⁓ tell us first about Flusos and what it is and how it works. And then tell me what you were chatting with me about at dinner last night about what you're going in and updating in Flusos because of all of the advancements in AI that are happening.   Yeah, yeah, so you're 100 % right Sarah, you know, there will always be the human element. It's necessary. We're a service business. So people want the customer relationships. They want that person who lets them know, hey, this is all right. You know, we're going well here. But the role of the property manager has changed. There will always be a role for property managers, but not in the way that we see it today.   And that's where we've got to make that transition. But one of the simplest flows to talk about, when I talk about flows, Flusos is workflows on all of the various tasks that we do. To help people understand how AI integrates with the human side of property management is if we look at a tenancy renewal. So when we're doing that renewal, there's so much that AI can do that takes away that   you know, that personal kind of like input ⁓ into the task as in like if a property manager doesn't like a tenant, then you know, like it becomes personal. ⁓ If they do like the tenant and they've built this relationship with the tenant, where the tenant is making them feel like if the rent goes up, that the tenant will lose the home, the property manager gets too involved personally and emotionally.   So to take away that very personal and emotional element and deal in the facts, if we look at, you know, a tenant renewal, AI has the ability, and this is what we're building into Flusos. So AI has the ability to go through and say, these renewals are due. It will then look at the tenant history to say, you know, how's the tenant pay the rent on time? Let's look at the in-resident inspections that we've done and we can see that the tenants   looking after the property, abiding by the terms and conditions. Everything's going great. We can see in the system where the tenant has, you know, kind of like mentioned that they would like to renew, that their children go to the local school and they want to stay there through the primary. We've got all of this data that's built up. So AI will be able to go in and say, yeah, you know, like this tenant has mentioned they want to stay on. We look at their history. It's all good. We're also going to look at the market.   And the market is determining that we can increase the rent to this much or it stays, it remains as it is. And we should offer a lease term of this length because AI will be able to determine what's going on in that marketplace. There could be infrastructure rebuilds going on, which could push people away from moving there. You know, just because we've got infrastructure being built, there is a building period that turns people off.   So AI can look at all of that and then say, okay, this is what we should offer the tenant. Now, the property manager then looks at that and they can say, well, you know, this owner has this property as a ⁓ full-time ⁓ or permanent investment property, but we need to talk to them and say, hey, as an investment property, this is where we recommend that you, you know, take the property, increase the rent, offer renewal because of this.   ⁓ And then the owner can make a decision. Now AI jumps in, does all the lease renewals, sends off the documents, updates the system. And the property manager's next role is talking to the owner and saying, congratulations, the tenants have signed the renewal. AI has then given them updates on your property is now achieving this in comparison to market. This is what the increase means to you in terms of dollars and percentage.   And we become that voice of, you know, like ⁓ reason and congratulations and service. And the owners look to us for that because all the information that's given to them is not based on personal, ⁓ you know, thoughts on what's going on or emotion. So, yeah.   And it makes it seem either that's the thing. No, I guess not. Oh, I think they're building over there. So maybe it'll be good and yet they're supposed to build a new stadium and that'll bring in. It's really figuring out things that we just don't know what the impact will truly be. And I love that it's kind of like, OK, have the human monitor the AI and have the AI do the heavy lifting.   and then you kind of watch it, make sure it's doing the right thing, and then you get to be the human to human connection. Exactly. Let me be the one who calls the owner, but AI has done all the things for me, so it's kind of prepped it, gotten it ready, wrapped it up in a pretty package that now I can present to the owner, and I get to be almost a bearer of good news instead of the bearer of bad news. Exactly, exactly. And know, owners don't want to hear that you should renew the lease because they're a good tenant.   Well, what constitutes a good tenant? They have to pay their rent on time. They have to look after the property. They have to look after the garden. So they've got to abide by the terms and conditions. It doesn't mean they're a good tenant. So owners don't want to hear that. The owners want to hear that they've abided by the terms and conditions. So we see no reason why they shouldn't be offered a renewal. I think one of the interesting challenges that are   that's going to come with AI is that AI can make anything now. I can take a photo of you, I could use AI to make you say stuff and match your voice. And so the danger with AI is that I think we're gonna get to the point where people will only trust human in-person interactions to begin things or to end things or just, you know. And so there's gonna have to be this human element of verification unless there'll probably be some people that work this out.   like some sort of verification system. You can load it up on your phone and verify that this is a real thing that you're talking to on Zoom or something. you know, that with all the AI slop as they're calling it and all of the fake videos and it's now becoming nobody believes anything. And so it's hard to know, is this really true? Is this actually the property manager that I'm talking to that is, you know,   that I have this property and I'm the owner and you know, are they real? And so, am I giving them access? And so I think there's gonna need to be some sort of verification system in order for people to trust because people will trust, I think it'll get to the point where we'll just trust this. Like I can shake your hand, I can touch you, I you're real.   I mean, we might all be fake on the I you don't know we just took a photo and write the whole podcast and do it and yes But they're really in Ulston That's right. Yeah There's been so much that's happened with deep fakes there've been yeah millions of dollars scammed and Now there's it it's getting so aggressive   that it's recommended that if you are a human that recommends or that interacts regularly with another human, like you and your husband, for example, or you and your children, that you have a a safe word, a password, a verbal safe where if you get a phone call from what looks like and sounds like your daughter saying, mom, I'm stuck on the side of the road, please send me money, I need help, what's the word?   What's the word? And then you know if that word isn't said, that is not my daughter even though it looks like it sounds like it. And I think that's going to be something that we need to kind of incorporate as well and for that reason I agree. I think that in-person, personal relationship will be more important than ever. Yes, I agree with that and this is something that's interesting you bring that up because I always had a safe word with my children. It was given. ⁓   It's something that I think property managers take for granted. They call owners and tenants and talk about all sorts of things without any sort of security check. So, you know, like if we're talking to the banks or, you know, anyone, we get a telecode or we've got to like key in what our personal sort of verification. Exactly.   So I think that's another area, and I'm glad you brought that up because it's another area where industry has to step up. We've got to protect the data that we've got. We've got a lot of sensitive data there. So we've got to really look after that. But there will always be that human element in property management because people want to know that they're making the right decision. People want to chat about it. They want to go through and say, based on that data,   would I be wrong in increasing the rent? It's like, no, a property manager is like, that's what the market is determining. So if the market determines a rental increase, then that's what the market is saying. Holding back rent only impacts every other investor in that market. I think it'll be interesting. So I think moving forward in the future, if we start to leverage AI, but we build our processes around things.   you know, initiated in a way that it starts with a human and that sensitive touch points are done as a human and that we come up with our own verification methods, we're going to avoid some of these traps and our processes will have a longer life span. Yes, yes. You know, we won't have to, man, we have to change everything now with the, all these scammers are doing this one thing where they call up and pretend that they're you, you know.   And so, yeah, because you can go on 11 Labs right now. You can upload your little recording of your voice and then you can have your voice and you can have it say anything. so, yeah, so I think that's going to be a challenge. And I think we're going to have to figure out a way to how do you how do you on a Zoom call with a remote owner that's out of state or out of country verify that each of you are an actual   real physical human being. Somebody needs to invent that device that verifies it's like taking a blood sample. It's like they're human and it's it's like, this is the, this is actually Joe I'm talking to across the pond. So yeah. Okay. Yeah, it is important. And I think the other thing for the industry to understand is that, you know, AI isn't something that they can go back to their office and say, we're going to build this AI.   ⁓ Let the experts do it. Let the experts who understand process and know, Sarah is a real expert on process and to have that level of expertise, it takes a lot of knowledge and a lot of like building and rebuilding and understanding and it's tweaked, you know, for different companies. But you know, like they shouldn't be taking this on themselves. Let the experts do it. And when we talk about, you know, our tech.   We need tech stacks and there is a lot of different technology out there that we've got to build it all in together. Property managers can't do that. A lot of business leaders can't do it either. know, have faith in the experts. That's what I'm saying to the industry is have faith in the experts because, you know, they are doing a lot of work behind the scenes on making sure that AI is not a negative.   impact to the industry is only making our industry sustainable and relevant into the future. mean that's going to be one of the temptations and dangers is that anyone can now go create any software. can load up lovable or any of these other tools and they can say make me a CRM or make me a property management software. But yeah the problem is you then have to become some sort of expert that's constantly communicating, fixing bugs, tweaking it, figuring it out.   And if you can't or something breaks or something gets hacked, then you're at risk. Your whole business is now at risk. And yeah, so I think that, but in the future, everybody will be able to create anything. So I think the people that really thrive and survive and keep a job while AI kind of takes over, I believe will be those that are the artists.   So we're going to shift away from it being about being a nerdy programmer. It's going to be those that have this creative thinking that they can think, how can I combine these tools? How can I connect these? How can we innovate this? And that's been one of the most fun things for me in playing with AI is now I get to be an artist with building systems and building things and creating things. Cause I can create things so quickly. Whereas before I would just think about all the things I wanted to do. And I'd be like, that'd be nice if somebody made that. And I'd be like, that's way too much work.   I don't want to do that. but yeah, it's now you can just create anything and you can edit things quickly. You can have things reviewed. And so there's a lot of things that everybody's probably already using some of the AI tools right now, you know, like chat GPT and maybe Claude and perplexity and some of these things, but there's a lot of, you know, more advanced tools that are coming out that are going to make things even faster.   And now AI is building AI and things are just speeding up.   Jason Hull (22:01) is that we're gonna have a lot of tenants out of work. I think there's gonna be a lot of tenants that are like, hey, I just lost my job to AI. And so we've already replaced some roles and some functions of our team and maybe even a whole team member with some AI tools already. And so that's coming very quickly. And I think Elon Musk just said that   in the next three to five years, the best surgeons in the world will be robots. And those are high paying, high functioning jobs that people put a lot of effort into, but he says they'll be better, more accurate. And so, do you want a really seasoned, older surgeon with maybe, he's human steady level hands, or do you want somebody that has laser precision that gets it right every time that's overseen by that person?   I think the best blend is both. I want the AI laser precision with the human with all of the knowledge and experience to watch it and make sure that it's the right thing. if you did it that way, if a doctor just had a monitor, it eliminates the need for many of them. You now need one doctor to...   multiple AI robots. Because you've got beta. think everything that's going to shift, AI is going to change so many things, which is great. It's still not going to be able to, I mean, how comfortable would you feel? Open heart surgery and that's the AI robot and you go, ⁓ do I want that thing cutting me open? ⁓   What's its track record? What if it glitches? What if it breaks down? Is it going to do the right thing? it know? What is it, you know, is it programmed? What if it dies in the middle of the surgery? Does it have a battery? There's a lot of things to think about. And does it care? Right. is it, what if it that eye robot where it's scanning and going, oh, it has an 11 % chance of survival. I'm done. Well, wait a second. Hold on. Do we, you know, do we keep going? So I think everything is going to come down to a blend.   of AI and human and there's got to be both of those components. So can you maybe chat about, let's chat about kind of both ends of the spectrum here. What might happen to some property management companies that refuse to adopt AI? Where they go, I'm just not doing it. I'm not using AI. I'm staying old school. We don't want to learn anything. We don't want to do anything else. might you be a, what would you think the prediction would be on companies that just will not?   Yes. Use it. That's a really good question because we kind of saw that with what happened with these old school companies ⁓ where they refused to have anything but the property management program, you know, where you store your data. ⁓ And they eventually were out of business. I mean, I'd go into these offices and they just have   files everywhere, files covering the desk, they didn't know where anything was. But they refused to, you know, ⁓ use anything else than go to that paper file. And it was a mess. mean, how do you find paper? ⁓ So we saw those businesses gradually get out of business. They didn't have a business to sell, basically. So they might have been mighty in their day, but they were no longer mighty when technology just   over. Now that took a long time to happen in the past. It's going to be more rapid now. So those businesses that refuse to adapt or adopt AI or understand it because a lot of them think we've got AI. It's like you don't have AI. GPD does not help you to manage process better. So if they don't then   We're seeing it already Sarah and Jason. We're seeing that these companies that used to manage 500 or more managements are down to half of that and I'm selling one at the moment where they had 600 and we're just on the final figures today. They're down to 342. That's a lot of money that they've lost because they refuse to adapt new methods and they let the property managers determine   what technology they would use. Because what happens if we allow staff to determine what technology we will use, then the staff just create or justify a reason for their position. We can't do that anymore. We've got to identify the task that a property manager does. And there's much less than what, you know, they did in the past. A property manager is basically just a client relationship manager now.   They're reviewing data and interpreting that data to have conversations with the clients. And that's the way we've got to do it. And the other thing is, investors are changing too. So we're getting a lot of institutional investors. So institutional investors don't want to deal with, you know, mother head and type, you know, like, ⁓ the tenants are lovely and you know, you don't want to lose them and...   you probably can't afford to do the maintenance and things like that. Institutional investors just want the facts so they can make a decision and quite often they don't want to make a decision they want the property manager to do what's needed. And AI will determine the necessary steps so the property manager becomes that person this has been done or they can look online through their portal. in   I'm like, that's a long answer to your question. But you know, like I believe hand on heart and don't want to seem like I'm doing so sorry, I'm hitting the mic. that three years time is three years is all we've got to make the changes and to identify the tasks the property manager does. Because it's not the same anymore. I agree. And I think it's about shifting that shifting. It's about making that shift.   And then conversely, let's talk about the other end of the spectrum because, okay, if you go, you know what, I'm sold, I'm doing everything AI. I'm firing my entire team, I'm letting AI do everything and we've seen some companies try to do this before, but now there's a lot of changes and AI can do a lot of things that before was not possible. So what would you say to the companies that are gonna go all in and they're gonna do all AI? Is that the solution?   No, it's a happy blend of technology and team. So if you don't have the team there, property management is a service industry. So we have to remember that, you know, and our service is helping the clients to feel confident about decisions that they're making or instructions that they're giving. ⁓ So it is definitely a blend of ⁓ technology and team.   but the team's role has changed. please don't think you can go in there and chat GBT is going to, you know, create all the conversations and, and, know, they're going to answer the phone and, and, you know, talk to the client and record it all. No, there needs to be human element. But again, I'll go back to it's the experts that will help you create that because it's very, very difficult to understand how to blend that technology and team. ⁓   without the kind of like the team having their say in it too. A lot of business owners let the team say too much and they make decisions based on team. We've seen that, or they take a vote. A vote, yes. My team, I hear that from our clients, and they go, well my team voted and what? Your team voted? No, no, no, no. that's good. They don't ever vote. Like, yeah, you know, eliminate my job. I'll vote yes for that. Yeah, yeah. No, no.   Yeah, the challenge with team members is that they are not usually money driven the way entrepreneurs are. They're not focused on the money side of the business and they're focused on safety and security. And as AI comes, that's going to take a lot of that away. And so yeah, you don't want to have your team vote. This is, it's not like a   It's not democracy. No, this is business. I believe in democratic principles, it's the business. But yeah, you can't place the burden of decision making on people that are wired to make decisions in a way that's not conducive. Yeah, it's all about them. And, you know, like it's important to understand how the team is thinking so that you can then help them adjust to it or no.   that person's not going to come through with me. So you can make the decisions. no, know, team will always justify why they are needed in a business. Yeah. mean, the day may come with all the AI stuff and humans really, we tend to like each other. We like humans a bit. You know, we'll probably have labels on our business made with real humans. Real humans at our business and a real human answers the phone. No AI. You know, I mean, it might happen. So that could be interesting. So.   One of the things that I also though, am thinking and maybe I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist or a little crazy, I don't know. But ⁓ when Trump went into Venezuela and extradited or took out that dictator that had taken over the government there and was causing a lot of problems, the people were very happy. But what was really interesting, what was unsaid or I didn't hear people talk about it much is the US government.   Military whatever went in had the ability they turned off all the power to the entire city There were not even backups were working everything went out and went black. Mm-hmm and That's wild to think that we have the ability to just wipe out power and electricity I don't know if it was an EMP thing or Some people say solar flares can do this and maybe the government can do this kind of stuff. Who knows but the fact that technological   data, power, electricity, all that can just shut off in an instant. How would we deal with that in a world where everything has become digital and everything has become AI? Will we have backups? Will we have keys? Will we be able to find things? ⁓ Will we know stuff? there's, think there, I mean, if that happens one time, it will be like change everything forever. Just like the pandemic changed everybody's perception forever about.  

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, steps outside traditional Mafia territory and into a shadowy world just as dangerous—and just as fascinating: the international theft of ultra-rare automobiles.  Gary is joined by author Stayton Bonner, former senior editor at Rolling Stone, and legendary car-recovery specialist Joe Ford, the real-life figure behind Bonner's book The Million Dollar Car Detective. At the center of the story is a breathtaking pre-World War II automobile—the Talbot-Lago Teardrop Coupé—once described as the most beautiful car in the world. Stolen from a Milwaukee industrialist's garage in 2001, the car vanished into the international underground of elite collectors, forged paperwork, and high-stakes deception. Joe Ford explains how he became the go-to investigator when rare cars worth millions disappear—and why stolen vehicles are far harder to recover than stolen art. What follows is a years-long global hunt involving disgruntled mechanics, fabricated titles, shell corporations, Swiss intermediaries, and a billionaire buyer now locked in civil litigation. Bonner adds rich historical context, tracing the car's glamorous past—from European aristocracy to Hollywood royalty—and exposing how loneliness, obsession, and greed often surround these legendary machines. The conversation expands into other notorious cases, including the disappearance of the original James Bond Aston Martin from Goldfinger, and how wealthy collectors sometimes knowingly harbor stolen artifacts. This episode is a true-crime story without guns or gangs—but filled with deception, betrayal, and the relentless pursuit of justice across borders. If you love investigative work, high-end crime, and stories that feel like James Bond meets Gone in 60 Seconds, this one's for you.

Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The Loving Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today Gissele: we’re talking about coming back together after estrangement, and I have my good friend, Iona Sky, who is a globally recognized social worker, consultant, and educator whose work is rooted in compassion and systemic change. For over two decades, they’ve helped organizations transform policies and cultures through equity, inclusion and accessibility strategies. Gissele: Iona inspires leaders and students alike to see compassion, not just as a value, but as a powerful tool for justice. Please join me in welcoming my good friend. Hi Iona. Iona: Hi Gissele. Thank you for having me here. Gissele: Oh, you to be a part Iona: of this. Gissele: Thank you for being on the show and I’m so grateful to be able to chat with you. Gissele: I mean, you and I have worked together for many years in the field of child welfare and [00:01:00] we did as we were talking off camera, we did some transformative work around the voices of children and the voices of families and how to work in more empathetic and compassionate ways. You were talking a little bit in your story about estrangement that happened between yourself and your parents, ’cause you’re part of the LBTQ community . Gissele: I was wondering if you could share a little bit about Helped you make the decision to come back together Iona: Mm-hmm. Thank you for that question. When people see me and my my mother now, my dad passed nine years ago you know, I think they would, they would be very surprised to hear perhaps that, we did not have any contact for seven years and that that was purely based on, who I am as a person, my sexual orientation, and what my parents’ journey in understanding and what their story was. Iona: So seven [00:02:00] years of no contact and I got married, my partner had a son, all of these things. And it was actually at my brother’s engagement party. When I was invited, I went by myself and I saw my parents and from across the room after seven years and I looked at them and I, wow. Iona: And I. I remember looking at them and seeing how they had aged in seven years. And in my heart, I was sad that I didn’t get to be a part of that experience. And I thought to myself, I miss them and I don’t wanna continue in this way. And so I went and gave them a hug and said Hi. And then I went and sat with my sister, and, we didn’t really talk, I don’t [00:03:00] think much that day. Iona: And then it was a series of really slow steps my brother’s wedding. Slowly starting to communicate via email. And then because my parents they weren’t living in Canada at that time for for periods of time. And so I decided to go and see them and spend some time back home after I separated from my ex-wife because I needed to go back home and just get rooted again. Iona: Mm. And, and I remember being very nervous. ’cause I’m like, whew, okay, how’s this gonna go? Right? Yeah. ’cause not only have I not seen them, you know, I haven’t been home for a long time. And I saw them at the airport and it was like old times. you know, my family, Iona: We don’t talk about emotions, [00:04:00] we don’t talk about this kind of stuff, right? Mm-hmm. And, but we show, so for me it’s been learning especially with my son, talk about emotions, those kinds of things. We show us reactions, right? And so, you know, through cooking, through care, through those kinds of things. Iona: And so that’s how I knew we were slowly rebuilding that relationship. And it takes time, right? And it also takes navigation of of your own boundaries also. And what’s healthy and what’s not, right? How much time, how much space will help you maintain that healthiness, you know? Iona: Mm-hmm. Because I had to have boundaries as well with how much time do I go and spend, because in the beginning it was just me. And so I had to still, you know, dichotomize my life and not talk about my life. And it was only, in the past few years you know where my mom has gotten to know my [00:05:00] partner, my son, where I can live my full life with my family. Iona: I can say this, that Iona: the one thing we cannot stop in our life is time. We can’t stop time, we can’t get it back, you know, and if I would have time with my father on this earth, I would’ve perhaps had some more conversations with him. But it’s okay, because I have it with him on the other side. Gissele: Hmm. Iona: And that’s, sometimes no matter what you believe in, however, what, whoever, whatever, if you believe in anything, trying to find your peace, right. Iona: Your peace through a compassionate way. And, it’s an ongoing journey, so, right. Like, I’m not arrived, you know, I would love to see I’ve arrived but it continues to be small steps. Right. Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So in order for you to get to the point where you could invite even just the [00:06:00] reconciliation, was there a level of forgiveness that needed to happen for yourself and for your parents? Iona: Mm-hmm. I think for both. You know, I think for both. Because once again, we both have our stories, right? Mm-hmm. And I’m sure that my parents were hurt profoundly, and that’s their journey. I don’t own their hurt, right? Iona: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ’cause that’s their journey of their lost hopes, their lost dreams, their whatever it is, right? And for me, I’ve reframed it. I tried to reframe it for them. It’s not lost, it’s just different. Just looks different. Just looks different than what you imagine. I live a full life with a loving partner, a beautiful son, a beautiful home with my two dogs. Iona: when you think about those things, right, like what parents dream about a success, right? To have a good family, a good life. I have those things. Iona: I just wanna say that forgiveness is an ongoing journey [00:07:00] because also. what I’ve realized about my brain is that my brain has been traumatized by significant events in my life, right? And the disowning was a significant event in my life. And so there are things that I don’t remember or that come to me as I get older. Iona: And so in the sense that forgiveness is an ongoing journey, and I’m sure that it is from my parents as well. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. in order for you to be able to have some sort of reconciliation, you had to deal with your internalized homophobia. Gissele: Can you talk a little bit about that and that journey? Iona: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So my parents are from India. I identified as a outgoing, I’m from Gowa. Iona: I give that context, right, because India was colonized. I grew up, in a family but strong Catholic [00:08:00] faith. I grew up not seeing any images. Iona: Or any representation of L-G-B-T-Q identities. Mm-hmm. we didn’t really talk about, you know, being gay, being queer, being lesbian, and the only times that we did it was in a way that was derogatory and, if there were people who we thought might be part of the community, it was always like people spoke negatively about them. Iona: Right. Yeah. and also back home, it’s illegal. And so mm-hmm. To me, you know, like it’s against the law. And so I grew up with a strong sense that it’s not okay to be gay, and also there’s no, no words in our language, in Conquer for the word gay, lesbian, like, you know? Gissele: Hmm. Iona: And so I had no exposure and so, it’s that whole, cliche, I always knew I was different kind of thing. Yeah. But not recognizing, what that might be. And so when I came to Canada and started in [00:09:00] university to be exposed to different communities and identities and, you know, it can be such a formative time for folks and for me it was also being exposed to different people and that I had never been exposed to and starting to understand myself in different ways. Iona: And I had huge internalized struggles learning that growing up, thinking, oh my God, being gay was bad. To now going, oh my God, I think I’m gay. And then going, oh my God, what is that going to mean? Like, am I gonna lose people? Like, am I gonna be in trouble? what’s wrong with me? Iona: And I also saw people in the queer community and university, but they were all white. Mm-hmm. so as I was working through my internalized homophobia, you know, I tried to find space in the queer community, which was predominantly white. Iona: So then I [00:10:00] had to experience racism. Gissele: Yeah. Iona: And it was that living in liminal spaces, right. Not really belonging in either space and so I had really had to process through, you know, and for me, I’m the kind of person who I have to feed my brain before I feed my heart Gissele: Mm-hmm. Iona: And so for, for me, it helped me to learn about, the history of sexual orientations and gender identity in my culture’s pre colonization. And how we were welcomed, you know, we’ve existed from time immemorial. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Iona: And it’s only colonization that’s come and hap and said, okay, no, it has to be male and female, this and that and that, and all of that. Iona: Right. And so it was the finding some roots. Mm-hmm. Finding community, but you know, you take the best. With All right. Yeah, Gissele: yeah, yeah. Iona: [00:11:00] And but have I arrived, Gissele, once again, it’s my own ideal. I, I question my own internalized racism, homophobia internalized ableism every day, right? Iona: It’s an ongoing process. Gissele: It’s interesting how in, in colonization, all the fundamental things that make us caring human beings sort of got eliminated. living in communities generosity, equality, empathy you know, and compassion acceptance, inclusion, all of those things. Gissele: Sort of like, it’s almost like we divorced from ourselves, right? We became so separate from who we really are in ourselvesthat led to the propagation of colonization, which is. Really, really interesting. And I think now we’re in the process as humanity to come back to ourselves and to each other. Gissele: Because when I think about, we don’t live in community anymore. our communities are like our nuclear family, if you may. But when you think about caregiving, in [00:12:00] the olden times when we lived in sort of like villages, there was the grandparents and the kids and the grandparents usually took care of the kids, which makes them younger. Gissele: And then the older people would do lots of different things. And so, and we sort of lost that connection. We’ve sort of created all this space between us Iona: Yeah. Gissele: our communities were so small, I don’t think that, that kinda separation would’ve been possible. Iona: Exactly. Exactly. And that is just it Gissele, we have become so separate because that is part of colonization with. Tied to capitalism, right. And it is about, mm-hmm. Yeah. Iona: it’s about creating classes of income. It’s about who can achieve I grew up in a collectivist culture, you know, my humanity is tied in yours to self, you know, and that is what drives everything that I do. And I will offer a reframe that it was olden times in here, but in other parts in the world, it still exists. Iona: Right? And so how do we bring [00:13:00] this community of compassionate care together in a new way, right? Because you’re right, like. I just returned from Nunavut, you know, and from Ranking Inlet and Cambridge Bay. And, you know, you can see the sense of community there, the sense of caring there, the sense of connection. Iona: And then it is, it is rooted in their values. it is not only. Because of who they are, but it was the necessity. Yeah. Necessity that they had to care, led to be together. Right. Because of the land. Mm-hmm. And the landscape. And, and so what I would love to see is for Iona: for us to find that urgency of necessity to be together and to care, care for one another. Gissele: Mm-hmm. ‘ Iona: cause until we find that necessity where your humanity is tied up [00:14:00] into mine, we’ll just continue on with this dominance. Right. Iona: With the same, the same tyranny of time that I talked about a little bit earlier on in a different meeting. Gissele: Yeah. Iona: Which pulls that compassion away from us. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and we can’t be in survival mode and be in compassion. We can’t be in fear being in love. It makes it really, really difficult. And so, you know, I always think of the colonizer. Gissele: I’m like, what must their life have been like that they needed that, that they felt like they didn’t have enough? So it’s always more and more and more and more like, having to fill that empty hole, right? With more money, with more things and more materials and more land. it just, it’s never enough. Gissele: But I find when you’re trying to fill it with stuff that doesn’t fit there, it’s just, it’s a pit, it’s a never ending filling. Iona: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I know. I’ve often wondered that too, right? I would love to go back in time and listen to their stories. Gissele: Right. And try to understand. Gissele: Yeah. And you [00:15:00] mentioned listening to stories, and I think for me, curiosity is the stepping stone to compassion, right? I’m trying to understand your story and so the more I listen to you, the more I understand. and, you know, I’m a big lover of Louise Hay, which is like, everybody’s doing the best they can with the understanding, knowledge and awareness that they have at the time they have. Gissele: Yeah. Right. For some people, their story makes sense to them, even if it’s just a justification, right? Iona: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, what you have just said on is the essence of where I am at this point in my life, I truly believe that people do the best that they can at the point in their life with the resources that they have, just as my parents did, you know, just as I did. Iona: Just as I do. Yeah. As I say to my son, I’m an imperfect person, you know, and please have patience with me as I have patience with you. Right. Gissele: Yeah. and it’s amazing Like, I wasn’t taught that parents could be [00:16:00] questioned. Right? And so for me to be able to be honest with my children and say, I’m not always gonna get it right. Gissele: I don’t always know what I’m doing. Please forgive me. I’m sorry that I hurt you. It’s such a like, departure from my parents, right? Because there’s a lot of denial and there’s a lot of oh, this isn’t true, it hasn’t happened. And so to be able to actually do that for our children I can’t remember where I heard it, but this is sort of like these generations are the ones that are re-parenting themselves and at the same time trying to parent the next generation. Gissele: And that’s how I feel. I relate to that to have to address all my fears, my limitations, my thinking, my trauma, my biases, so that it stops with me and it doesn’t get transferred to my children and their children’s children and so on. And so. The willingness to be able to do that even so it’s difficult, it’s necessary. Iona: Yeah, absolutely. That I felt that in my heart, Gissele because Gissele: mm-hmm. Iona: Yeah. I really feel like I’m trying to reparent [00:17:00] myself and do things differently so that certain things end with me and don’t get passed to my boy. You know? I want lots of good things to get passed to my boy. Gissele: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Iona: But not the difficult trauma, the impacts of those, Things. And also the intergenerational stuff. Right. And that’s the compassion I think we can have for our ancestors as well. Because, I stand before you and sit before you as a representation of those who came before me, just as you do with you. Iona: Right. And so how can we carry on that? That torch and those values that, you know, that we’re sharing today and moving it forward. Because I think, you know, I think the world needs a little bit more compassion and love and light and Gissele: empathy. Iona: Empathy. Gissele: Yeah, definitely. I was thinking about, as you were talking about how I’ve had to really shift my perspective on my [00:18:00] ancestors. Gissele: I was very mad at my ancestors. ’cause there was a lot of trauma passed down. There was a lot of like neglect, there was a lot of abuse, there was a lot of poverty. There was so many different things. And so I think when I was younger there was an aspect of me of like, why couldn’t you get their, your HIT together? Gissele: Yeah. So that my parents weren’t so traumatized when they raised me. Now I have a different perspective it’s interesting once I sat down with my dad and he was telling me the history of all the things that they went through and they managed to survive. They managed to survive the war. Gissele: They managed to survive poverty. They managed to survive deep, deep trauma. And so it gave me a new perspective around how can I have appreciation for their strengths? How can I acknowledge the strength they gave me? How can I acknowledge the resiliency they gave me? How can I acknowledge all of the history in a way that comes from a place of gratitude rather than from a place of judgment? Iona: Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. And so, and I, and as I go through my own journey of healing my own trauma and doing all of that, I see how difficult. It is, I [00:19:00] see how, how dynamic it can be and feel and how much courage it, it even took I mean, when you’re in the middle of the war, you’re not thinking, I really gotta deal with my trauma. Gissele: You’re just, you’re just coping. You gotta live right. I you gotta live. so I’m so proud of my ancestors for having survived so much and for everything that got me here. Right? Yeah. But I, I didn’t always feel that way. Iona: Yeah. and that’s humble of you to say Gissele, right? Iona: and I think that that’s part of also our development and our growth is people, right? Is how do we come to understand it. Because yeah, like there were times I was angry too and you know, I come to see that they. They have all done their own healing work in their own ways. Right. Iona: Whatever that is, which has cumulatively helped me reach this point where I can sit in this room in Canada, have this conversation with you. Yeah. It was unimaginable to me as [00:20:00] a child in Bahrain. So, you know, I thank you for this opportunity. So, yeah. Iona: You know Gissele: for sure. And I’m, I’m so grateful that you were here. Gissele: I wanted to go back to you had said that, you had to go through your own process of dealing with your internalized homophobia. What things really helped you to be able to do that for yourself? Iona: Well, the first thing is finding a community was huge. So finding resources, finding support, because once again, there’s nothing like being with people who are, in the same situation, you know? And finding somebody to help you process things through. Iona: So of whether it’s a counselor, whether it’s your I mom, or whether it’s your, whoever it is, you know somebody who is knowledgeable in dealing and helping people to process through, their [00:21:00] internalized homophobia. I’ve had people who did it well and people who did not. Mm-hmm. So I’ve learned from both. Iona: And also now we are in the time and the space, Gissele, we have so much access to information. Right. Like, I was out in the nineties, like in the nineties, we didn’t have Google, we didn’t have podcasts, we didn’t have, or Gissele: TikTok Yeah. Iona: Or TikTok or those things connects millions and millions of Gissele: people. Iona: Yeah. Or those kinds of things. Right. So there are lots of resources out there. Find ones though that feed your soul. And now, there is also representation from folks in the L-G-B-T-Q-Q community from different identities, you know, who are racialized, who are, when you think about intersectionality of, of identities. Iona: And I think that that is, was also a really huge thing for me, which I did not. Experiences people with a good understanding of intersectionality and how all the different parts of [00:22:00] me impact my experience of homophobia and internalized homophobia. And so, you know, finding resources that speak to you as a person. Gissele: Can you just tell my audience what intersectionality is for some of them that we’re not gonna know what that means? Iona: Yeah. Great. So intersectionality is a term that was coined by Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw, and it is used to describe how intersecting forms of oppression impact on people. Iona: So when I say intersecting forms of oppression, so if you look at me, I experience on an average day, when I go out in the world, I can experience racism because of the color of my skin. I can experience homophobia because of my sexual orientation. I can experience transphobia because of how I dress and present in the world and my gender identity. Iona: I can also experience ableism because I live [00:23:00] with different forms of invisible disabilities. So when you take all of those things together. They, they don’t work in silos because I say when I enter the room, I’m not just Brown Iona or, you know queer Iona. I’m Iona in all of the pieces that I am. So intersectionality is how all of those forms of isms work together and impact on people. Iona: And so when I think about, supports for people who, might be coming out, might be experiencing their own internalized homophobia the first thing I want to say to you, to the people who are out there who might be listening is that you are beautiful and perfect just the way you are. Gissele: Yes. Iona: And that you know, you belong in this world, in society exactly how you are and [00:24:00] that you are worthy of love, of safety, of joy, and to live a life where you not just survive, but where you thrive. And there’s a resurgence of a lot of homophobia, a lot of transphobia. Iona: I was just saying to my partner the other day, you know, I can’t believe I’m still fighting over the same fight and protests like 25 years later about people who are protesting the existence of our lives. You know? And so so to be mindful of what you also expose yourself to with social media mm-hmm. Iona: Because it does impact on your brain and your wellbeing. And to find your places and your pockets of safety and hope find your communities because they’re out there. Gissele: Hmm. Oh, thank you. That was wonderful. You know, it’s interesting [00:25:00] that. The world is so vast and people’s perspectives are so different, right? Gissele: That there’s still people who think it’s a choice. And I remember our mutual friend that, you know, he would tell me like, why would I choose this? Why would I choose to not belong? it would be just so easy for me to make this choice versus this other choice. And so it’s not anything that I would be choosing because I don’t wanna choose to be different. Gissele: Everybody wants to belong, right? That’s just our RN innate nature . But you know, from my perspective, God source universe never makes a mistake. And so we are all perfect, we’re all beautiful. We may make choices that are maybe not so loving sometimes, but we always have the ability to come back to our true selves, which is from my perspective, our original most compassionate selves. Gissele: But yeah, it’s interesting. and I don’t know if I’ve shared this with you, I’ve heard the best reasoning behind. Homophobia and all, actually all isms. Iona: Oh, okay. Tell me, tell me. Gissele: So it’s from have you heard of the comedian? Iona: Oh yeah. [00:26:00] Gissele: Yes. they then had said in an interview and I loved it. Gissele: they were talking about the acceptance of trans people. And they mentioned the fact that the reason why some people struggle with that is because they, them are being the most authentically themselves. Gissele: And in a world where we don’t like authenticity, where we’re so terrified of it, when we’re not allowed to be our authentic self, Iona: it’s Gissele: threatening. It’s threatening to see people being authentically themselves. ’cause then do we have them to be authentic ourselves and it shines a light on us when we are not being authentically ourselves. Gissele: It took a while for me to figure out where I was being authentic and where I wasn’t Like how many things did I think I had to have, like the marriage and the specific job and the specific income and the specific car and the type of house and all of that stuff. Gissele: How much was it something that I was conditioned to accept as something I should want versus how much is [00:27:00] it that my soul really wants? the worst part is I wasn’t aware that that. There was a different me, a little me that was screaming to come out and say, you know, those things don’t really resonate with us. Gissele: I wanna do this, I wanna do that. I wanna play, I wanna be joyful. I don’t wanna care about how much money I make. I don’t wanna care about the things that people told me that I should care about. Iona: Yeah. Gissele: And so that is sort of the journey and coming home to ourselves and doing things that s authentically align with your higher self, your joyful self. Gissele: Right. I never thought I’d be doing a podcast. this brings me extraordinary joy. This is me, this is who I am. You know, and all the things that I’m doing right now are things that bring me incredible joy. I don’t know if it’s on the recording, but you were talking about how you never thought you were gonna stay in child welfare two years and then I’m out. Yeah. For me it was the reverse. I had wanted to work in child welfare since I was 15. I appreciate that. Iona: Yeah. Gissele: I thought I was gonna live and die in child welfare. Gissele: I [00:28:00] thought if this is my dream, this is me rescuing myself and my mother, and my family, my ancestors, you know, I’m gonna revolutionize child welfare and then it’s all gonna be good. And then to think that I’m doing something totally different. It was not in my bingo card. Gissele: Yeah. Right. But that’s when you start to connect with more of your authentic self and say, okay, who am I really? And what do I really love? What do I really want to do? And in a world where you are punished for not conforming, it feels very difficult. Mm-hmm. And it, and I don’t think it’s purposeful, but as I’m co-writing a, a book with my daughter I did my first book re-Imagining Work. Gissele: Yeah. And now we are doing re-imagining education. We don’t realize how in the education system system we are reinforcing consciously or subconsciously the belief that difference is bad because there has to be one right answer. Mm-hmm. There’s only one way to do things. And so diversity is not welcome. Iona: That’s Iona: in Iona: systems. Gissele: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But it [00:29:00] starts when they’re very little. Yeah. Iona: Yeah, yeah, Gissele: yeah. Iona: Oh, absolutely. Gissele: And so how do we educate our children to be open to diversity and to differences and to sit in the gray and to be more critical thinkers? Gissele: I wanted to, to ask you a question about your work, because this is something that I’ve observed and so I wanted you to comment on it. Gissele: there’s many organizations that wanna do the DEI work that wanna bring, you know, the representation, inclusivity, but they don’t do the work to cultivate the ground. And so when they bring in the people, you’re setting them up to fail. Yep. Can you talk a little bit about that and how do we help these organizations Gissele: Establish the ground? Iona: Yep. Great question because I have worked with many folks who want to do the right thing, increase diversity, increase representation, all of those good things, right? But it has to be done in a thoughtful way, in a thoughtful and strategic way because I always say that it’s very easy to hire to get diversity, but it’s the retention. It’s [00:30:00] whether people stay. And so this is where it requires leadership to create the climate where people can join and where people feel a sense of belonging, contribution, and inclusion. So not just, we have a racialized person. Iona: Oh, we have a whatever person, right? How do they feel? A sense of belonging? How do they feel that, their voice is being heard? So what leaders can do is create the groundwork right from the beginning, right on. And the fact that this is work that the organization is going to be doing to hire folks from different communities, different identities. Iona: Talk about why that’s important. Tie it in to your organizational goals and outcomes and and prepare your organization and staff in the sense of not making it about the [00:31:00] person, oh, Iona is coming, but about the organization and the growth and the direction we want to go in. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Iona: Because I have been in organizations where people have hired me and that’s great. They want me, but then. When I get in there, I’m like, okay, so you want me, but you don’t necessarily want my ideas. And like, like what work has been done here to get ready to create spaces and places where people can have different conversations, are open to, various perspectives. Iona: Right. Yeah. And you said something really important around children and education And where, where do these conversations start? They start at the kitchen table. They start when you tuck your kid in at bedtime. And if they don’t start there, then they start at university. Iona: They start When I’m sitting with somebody who is 70 years old and we’re having a conversation, it can start. You know? Mm-hmm. That’s the beauty of humanity and of growth. [00:32:00] We can grow and learn anytime. but if you’re looking at it for, from an organizational perspective, there are certain tangible things that leaders can do to get spaces ready. Iona: So that people can not only exist and join your organization, but they can thrive there. Because when you look at your data and if you see people coming in and leaving shortly after that tells me that y’all have work to do in creating places that demonstrate true inclusion. Gissele: Yeah. I love that. I appreciate that. Yeah. I wanted to go back to your journey of reconciliation after estrangement and talk a little bit, about your partner’s journey it must have been really challenging and, and so I’m just, I’m curious you must have had to kind of balance the relationship with your partner and also the relationship with your parents in a way that led to the reconciliation. Gissele: how [00:33:00] difficult was it to manage and were there things you found that helped? Iona: What helped the most, I think is that my partner is the pillar of patience. Gissele: Hmm. Iona: Because that could have broken our relationship. Quite honestly. Yeah. And, you know, I appreciated that she allowed me to walk that journey in the way that I needed to walk it with her by my side when I needed her to be and alone when I needed to do it alone. Iona: Was it easy? No. Was it painful? Yeah. Did we cry? Yeah. Were there times where, you know, we had to have serious conversations about, my relationship with you is, is primary and they are my parents. and she never made me choose, and I always appreciated that. Iona: And she never made me feel guilty for any choices that I made, But it, did it come at a cost? I’m sure it has. Well, I know it has profoundly impacted [00:34:00] her and that’s her journey. And I I can’t speak to that, but for me, you know it was, it was definitely something we had to navigate for many years. Iona: And you know, and it was hard. It was hard for me. It was hard for all of us, but I think it was hard for me because, you know, I mean, and you know, my partner, she’s amazing and and I feel sad that, you know, my dad gets to know her from the other side, but didn’t get to know her in this, in this dimension. Iona: Yeah. and I like your perspective in terms of the being able to still connect. ’cause even if you don’t believe that there is more to this life than this, write a letter to someone and Gissele: burn it, it’s just a way to get your voice out, right? Iona: two more questions. Gissele: The first one is, I’m asking everyone this season what their definition of self-love is. Iona: Oh, that’s a profound question that gave me chills. I think it’s so profound for me at this point in time because I’m still figuring that out. What does that mean for [00:35:00] myself? Iona: You know? Because I’ve lived with so many voices in my head telling me things about my worthiness or unworthiness or whatever, right? That have impacted how I see myself and my ability to love myself. And so now I’m actively working on, who do I allow in my space, in my body? Iona: Who do I allow to occupy space in my brain, you know? And being very conscious also of how do I feel on a very IM visceral, so really paying attention. So for me, because I’ve spent from the age of six to now, like being like disconnected from disjointed from my body due to traumatic events, now my self love is how to bring myself back together in a new way. Iona: And thinking about also, you know, who do I expose myself to? What do I expose myself to because that [00:36:00] releases different chemicals in my body and I want to release chemicals of joy. And positivity and not to be naive, because there’s pain and heartache in the world. Yeah, I know that. Iona: But I think for me, my self-love is how to, experience those moments honor them and walk through them and continue to find joy and beauty every day. Really. Every day, even in the smallest things. Even if it is justlaying on the ground with my penny, who’s my puppy, and just staring at her eyes for 10 minutes. Iona: Mm. You know, we do that sometimes, you know? Yes. And that’s what my self-love is, it is finding my way to, to myself and. I think my biggest thing, Gissele, is learning how to talk to myself, like somebody who I [00:37:00] love. Because I think this is the first time in my life as an adult that I’m learning how to do that Iona: that’s what my self-love is. Gissele: it’s been interesting for me in my journey learning to understand that my body is not my enemy. Gissele: your body is what? That my body is not my enemy. Yes. Yeah. That my body is not separate from me. It’s actually my house. right. So, so feeling like it’s not separate from me that it can’t, it, it can’t hurt me. It’s actually my very best friend and it’s my home for this lifetime. Gissele: Right? last question is where can people find you? Where can people work with you? What’s your website? What do you wanna share with the audience ? Iona: Awesome. People can find me. Check out my website at iskyconsulting.com. You can email me. I sky@iskyconsulting.com. I’m on LinkedIn. Iona: drop me a line. You know, I always say that I work, who is anybody who really [00:38:00] wants. to do this work in a meaningful way and make real change and take the principles of equity, diversity, inclusion, accessibility, and put it into action. And I’m also a social worker, right? And I love supporting folks with their clinical work and social work skills and leadership. Iona: Because to me, this work is about how do we show up every day, whether we’re a leader, whether we’re a fundraiser, whether we are a parent, whether whoever we are, right? You know, Gissele you came into my life like a gift when we worked together. Oh. And I’m grateful for you and for this opportunity because I count you as one of the people who have impacted me and continue to. Iona: And so thank you for having me on your show. Gissele: Oh, thank you. Thank you Iona for coming to the show. I feel the same way. You’re such a gift to me in the times when we worked together were just some of the best [00:39:00] times I’ve had, honestly . And thank you to everyone who joined us for another episode of Love and Compassion, which Gissele and we will see you soon.

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In which Christopher and Eric lose their collective minds and join the delirious, global freakout over the groundbreaking, generation-defining series, HEATED RIVALRY. They had no idea that when one of our Very Important Party People showed up in their VIPP Facebook group --sign up now-- talking about a "puck and **ck" show coming to Canadian television most of the planet would soon be in its firm, confident grip. Christopher and Eric dish on hot hockey players, MM romance, their own super gay books as well the geniuses that are Rachel Reid and Jacob Tierney.  Is it still a bromance if they kiss? Bromance Month continues with this spicy Valentine.

Adam goes solo for this pod during tax/trivia/cattle/life week! He starts off by sharing his thoughts and updates on all of his favorite sports teams recently, and also wonders why he doesn't use his muffin tin more? Adam ends the intro remembering a true 90s and Millennial kid icon, James Van Der Beek, who recently passed after a courageous battle with cancer. In the meat, Mm!, in honor of James, Adam ranks his top 10 movies from 1999, the greatest movie year of all-time! “Grams” from Dawson's Creek sends us home with a beautiful quite. Hut Hut. Love you all.

Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, discusses with Ashton Thomas the concept of marrying private equity with property management operations. Ashton Thomas is a third-generation real estate broker in Central Florida, she got her real estate license right after graduating high school and, in February 2019, opened her own brokerage. She decided to start her own brokerage and grew to about 25 agents, but she realized she preferred property management and did not like dealing with realtors and their recurring issues, and shifted her focus after property management "fell into her lap" when employees from a failing company approached her You'll Learn (00:45) Introduction and Ashton Thomas's Background  (03:46) The Audacity to Start a Brokerage at 23  (07:16) The Marriage of Private Equity and Property Management  (07:42) Benjamin Hardy's "Science of Scaling"  (12:31) Understanding Private Equity and the Roll Up Strategy  (17:58) The Advantage of Property Managers in Roll Ups  (19:10) Advice for Getting into Private Equity  (22:29) Raising Capital and How to Connect with Ashton Thomas Quotables "I've been thinking too small. That's why it's been so hard." "That's like entrepreneurs worst nightmare is to be feeling stuck and feeling like I'm not moving and I'm not getting traction and I'm not accomplishing anything." "The slowest, absolute slowest path to growth is to do it alone." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:00) All right, five, four, three, two, one. Hello everybody, I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we've brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry.   eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. All right, so my guest today is Ashton Thomas. Welcome, Ashton. Ashton (00:43) Thank you for having me. Jason Hull (00:45) So Ashton is a client of ours, but she also is a badass. And so Ashen, I would love for people to get to know you a little bit, share a little bit of your background. How did you get into real estate and property management and all of this?   Ashton (01:02) Yeah, absolutely. So I'm actually a third generation real estate broker in central Florida. My granddad started in Orlando like way back in the 60s. ⁓ Both my dad and my granddad, a lot of my uncles, they're all builders. So just kind of grew up in that real estate world. I was on a job site from when I was very little. ⁓ And so I always just had a love for homes, real estate, just   the whole nine years. When I was wrapping up high school about to go to college, my parents suggested, I always had like an entrepreneurial spirit, and my parents suggested that I get my real estate license. And I was like, you know what, it can't hurt to have that. So I went ahead and took the class, got the licensing as soon as I graduated high school. So I was actually a licensed realtor already working before I started my freshman year of   college. ⁓ Real estate has been so fascinating because I've been able to see so many changes over the last 12 years since I got into the industry. I started with new home sales construction, actually working for my parents, ⁓ really learned about what it took to run a sales center. And then I switched to traditional real estate, like what you think of a realtor doing now. ⁓ From there, I ended up opening my own brokerage.   Jason Hull (02:03) Wow.   Ashton (02:28) ⁓ in February of 2019. And then property management really just fell into my lap. There was a company that was going out of business because the owner was embezzling funds. And their employees actually came to me and said, you know, we would like to work with you. We'd like to work for you. And we're bringing these clients. So   I had never written a lease, seen, really even put my eyes or hands on a lease, never. This was two years ago, roughly. ⁓ And like just didn't have any property management experience at all. Figured out that we needed to get some systems in place right out of the gate. And I really took the next year, year and a half.   Jason Hull (02:59) how long ago.   Okay.   Ashton (03:22) to develop those. And Jason, you've been so instrumental in helping us succeed in those systems. You helped us identify the holes in our business and really figure out what we needed to do. ⁓ So at the time that I had brought on the property management side, and when I say property management for us, we do both long-term property management and short-term vacation rental. So I two separate sister companies that operate.   Jason Hull (03:51) Yeah.   Ashton (03:51) So ⁓ at the time I had roughly about 25 realtors that worked for me under the brokerage. I had really developed that, grown that. We were one of the largest Zillow Premier agent teams in central Florida at that time.   Jason Hull (04:13) Wait, can I ask you question about that?   Not very many agents start their own brokerage. What? mean, how, do you mind me asking age here? How old were you you started your brokerage and what gave you the audacity to decide to do this big thing?   Ashton (04:19) Mm-hmm.   I was 23 when I started my brokerage and the funny part was is I actually wanted to buy a brokerage first and I had this is a wild story you'll love this so you know you look back and you say what was I thinking like I had some guts and one of those stories   Jason Hull (04:33) Okay, go ahead.   Okay.   Okay.   Yeah   Ashton (04:55) So I had initially gone to this guy's office, he had four branches, local real estate agent, or a local real estate brokerage. I'd ⁓ developed his brokerage over like 50 years, had over 200 agents working for him. And I walk in and I asked to speak with the broker. He was there, they put me in the conference room. He thought that I wanted to become an agent working for him. Yeah. And I said, no, sir, I want to buy your company.   Jason Hull (05:19) That's the default.   my god.   Ashton (05:25) And   like, this was a total cold call. Like I had never talked with him before, never met him before. I ended up negotiating a price for the company ended up getting securing SBA financing. Everything had lined up so perfectly. And then a couple of weeks before we were actually going to be making it official. He decided that he wanted to, to sell his brokerage to a family member and not go through with me. And so.   Jason Hull (05:53) Wow.   Ashton (05:55) Honestly, in hindsight, that was the best thing that could have happened. I had no business running that large of a brokerage at 23 years old with no experience. ⁓ Over 200. Yeah. And I had secured a price for 2.4 million for the company. So with an earn out and it was just, it was going to be an insane deal if I could have like actually done that. But ⁓ I was   Jason Hull (06:05) How large was it? How many Asians? Okay, yeah, I mean massive, yeah.   Ashton (06:24) You know, everything happens for a reason. coming off of like the adrenaline rush from that not happening, I was like, you know what? I'm just going to start my own. Why not? So that's how I started when I was 23.   Jason Hull (06:26) Yeah.   Yeah.   I mean,   starting your own brokerage at 23 doesn't sound as crazy if you were already trying to buy 200 agent brokerage. Like, I'll just, you know, step it back a little bit.   Ashton (06:49) Mm-hmm.   Yes,   let's like crawl before we run. Oh, so that was originally what I wanted to do was just build up a massive, brokerage with lots of agents. And I thought that in my head was the dream. No, for me, it was not. I had grown to about 25 agents, like roughly like steadily and kept that number for a while. I realized that I   Jason Hull (06:56) Yeah. ⁓   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Ashton (07:21) to not like dealing with realtors and their issues over and over and over again, every day in and day out. It became like kind of toxic to me at least. And I went through and slashed a lot of agents jobs here ⁓ because it was either performance issues, attitude issues, whatever it was, they just were not the right fit for us. I ended up keeping a core five. ⁓   Jason Hull (07:32) Yeah.   Ashton (07:47) and they are phenomenal people with good ethics and good business sense who care about their clients and represent me and my company very, very well.   Jason Hull (07:58) What do feel like gave you the clarity to make that transition? Like, did you just wake up one morning or like, I don't like a lot of these people? Or how did you get clarity on what you really want?   Ashton (08:09) ⁓ One of the things was I told my office manager, I was so frustrated one morning, I told her, said, if one more person asks me another stupid question, I am gonna lose my mind. So I was fed up, I just couldn't deal with it anymore.   Jason Hull (08:23) Okay, we're just fed up.   Yeah, yeah. So I know when, when did that fit with you joining DoorGrow? Because I know you had worked on culture and we'd helped you figure out kind of what mattered to you and like, that align with, was that before you came on board? Was that after? When did you let go of all the... Okay. You don't move slow on anything, it sounds like.   Ashton (08:45) I don't want the same time. Yeah.   I try not to. I try not to. Honestly, I feel like that's where things go to die is if you move slow.   Jason Hull (08:57) Got it, yeah, right. Okay, cool, quick action taker. So obviously a very driven personality type. ⁓ And I know the topic that we were planning to talk about today is the marriage of private equity and property management, capital meets operations. So let's get into that. Again, you have big goals, big crazy goals.   Ashton (09:05) Thank you.   Yes.   Jason Hull (09:27) that sound pretty insane to most people. But you know, the people that are bold, that have the audacity to go after these big things, achieve big things. So what are you up to now?   Ashton (09:39) Yeah, so there's actually a great book by Dr. Benjamin Hardy. He has he's written like several and I know you're a big fan of Dr. Hardy's as well. He talks about like those impossible goals and how you really should and actually that one of his latest books, The Science of Scaling, is ⁓ really spurred me to action and not just having like a 10 year time frame, but like a three year time frame. And I can condense these goals.   what I want to do kind of vaguely into really specifics and get it done now. ⁓ So yeah, I would highly recommend anybody listening to also read his books.   Jason Hull (10:20) Yeah, agreed. Phenomenal book. I got to hear him speak down in Mexico and he hadn't released his book yet. And I was with a bunch of entrepreneurs that spent a lot of money to be there. And he all just walked out of the room with their mind blown. We were all just like, ⁓ I've been thinking too small. That's why it's been so hard. And it actually gets easier to grow and scale your business when you start thinking outside of your current mental limitations, which means it has to be something unrealistic or impossible.   Ashton (10:36) Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (10:49) So that's been a game changer. I've done some episodes talking about this, but same thing for us. Like we've got some big things we're doing this year that are probably a bit ridiculous. And I don't know if we can pull it off, but if we do, DoorGrow will be the dominant player in the industry. And I already feel like we're a leader or leader, but this will be a game changer, some of the stuff that we have planned. And I've talked about it on previous episodes, just a little bit, what we're thinking of doing.   But I think it's going to be some of these things are going to be game changer. and we've got so many irons in the fire right now, like we move fast and it's bit crazy, but that's where the fun is too, right? In business. So I'd rather be lit on fire with too many ideas than be stuck. And I've been that way before where I'm like, what should I do next? know, I work on.   Ashton (11:35) That's like   entrepreneurs worst nightmare is to be feeling stuck and feeling like I'm not moving and I'm not getting traction and I'm not accomplishing anything. That is like absolute hell for us, isn't it?   Jason Hull (11:45) Yeah.   Yeah, I usually joke that entrepreneurs don't care about being happy or sad. They care about whether they're in momentum or whether they're stuck. And when we're stuck, damned, blocked, frustrated, that is hell. That's like, that's hell for us. We're miserable. And yeah, and it kills our motivation, everything. But when we're in momentum, that's the drug we crave. We want to feel like we're making progress and moving forward. And so   I'm that drug dealer. That's what I give out to clients. Like I'm like, let's go. That's hopium. So got to give them some hope. And then they're excited and believe they can do it. But yeah, if you believe you can do something big and you've got a big vision, a big dream, yeah, you start to find new pathways. You start to find new ideas. And so you're working on some crazy stuff. So let's talk about capital meets operations. How do we marry private equity with property management? And could other property managers do this?   Ashton (12:21) You do.   Jason Hull (12:47) excited to hear.   Ashton (12:47) Yeah,   absolutely. So I started in the private equity world really recently. It was like January of this year. And I feel like I've just been drinking out of a fire hose, like learning and being in, I've just made sure to put myself in the right rooms where I'm just like absorbing knowledge and information and wisdom from people and family offices that have been doing this so much longer than I.   Jason Hull (13:13) You've been really focused on learning the private equity space, which a lot of people, that's like some crazy thing they don't really maybe even understand. They're like, oh, don't know how it works. And you decided, hey, want get in on this.   Ashton (13:25) Yeah. ⁓ go   ahead. What was that?   Jason Hull (13:30) You said, I want to get in on this and learn about this and started figuring it out. All right, I'm going to plug our sponsor real quick, who you use, Vendoroo. How's it going with Vendoroo?   Ashton (13:33) Yes. ⁓   And here's amazing. We love them. They they honestly they take care of everything. They're really good about communication. I think they're they're phenomenal. They've been a game changer for us for our day to day ops.   Jason Hull (13:54) Okay, cool. I mean, it's So let me read this and then we'll get back into the show. So many of you tell me that maintenance is probably the least enjoyable part of being a property manager and definitely the most time consuming. But what if you could cut that workload by up to 85 percent? That's exactly what Vendero has achieved. They've leveraged cutting edge AI technology to handle nearly all of your maintenance tasks from initiating work orders and troubleshooting to coordinating with vendors and reporting.   This AI doesn't just automate, it becomes your ideal employee, learning your preferences and executing tasks flawlessly, never needing a day off and never quitting. This frees you up to focus on the critical tasks that really move the needle for your business, whether that's refining operations, expanding your portfolio, or even just taking a well-deserved break. Don't let maintenance drag you down. Step up your property management game with Vendero. Visit vendero.ai slash door grow.   today and make this the last maintenance hire you'll ever need. All right, cool. So let's talk about this private equity stuff. Help me understand what it is. I'm fairly ignorant, so.   Ashton (14:59) Hmm   So basically, I mean, it's a very big term, private equity, and it can span over so many different asset classes. And I think that's one of, I'm sidetracking a little just a minute, but like, I think that's one of my favorite parts about the private equity and PE industry is because you can meet somebody in your same asset class and they're doing something totally different. Like for instance, you know, what you're teaching Jason with the property management and like these operators and entrepreneurs who are   owner operators really, you're teaching us the same framework and we're doing the same exact thing, which there's nothing wrong with that. That's great. That works. It's systemized. In private equity, it's all wild cards. There's a lot of structure to it, but at the same time, everybody can be doing something different. And you're not in competition truly because you all have your own unique spin on it. So it's cool. But what it means is that ⁓ if, so our firm,   we bring in investor capital, ⁓ either through debt or equity. And then our investors trust us. We let them know like what we're investing in. usually have like a it depends on the type of investment. So I try not to get too technical here. It depends on the type of investment, but we let them know, hey, we're investing in XYZ companies, or we're investing in hard assets with like purchasing real estate that meet these certain criteria. So instead of   these investors taking their money and putting it into the stock market, they are putting it with private firms because the stock market is the public equities. then private equity is these private individually owned firms ⁓ that I mean, you have really large ones like BlackRock and Blackstone and ⁓ all of those. And then you have a lot of small ones like myself who are just getting off the ground. We don't have a lot of assets under management yet.   But as we develop that investor base, we're just going to keep that ball rolling and continuing.   Jason Hull (17:04) Yeah, so there's booty   firms, there's gigantic ones, there's lots of different categories of asset classes that they might be involved or invested in. And so somebody can pick a private equity company or something to partner with or get involved with that kind of is involved with the asset classes that they feel comfortable.   Ashton (17:23) Yeah,   absolutely. like, there's some, ⁓ like for us, we're real estate based and specifically Florida based real estate. There's, have friends who own hedge funds and that's all they do is hedge funds and specifically in like just in gold or in like just in commodities. We, there's people who are running funds based on really specific short-term rentals or within a five mile radius of national parks. So it gets down really, really, really specific.   ⁓ Up until like you large firms with very large funds and they have a diversified asset class over You know, they have hedge funds. They they're doing running venture They're doing ⁓ you know Secondaries they're actually in like the private equity sphere there. So it just really depends on on the firm itself and you want to make sure as if there's any investors listening you want to make sure that ⁓ your you fit with   how that firm is treating your money and running your money, and that it aligns with your goals, obviously, not just monetarily, but also with what they're investing in.   Jason Hull (18:32) Right, got it. Okay. And so how can property managers start to get involved in this and create this marriage? What are you doing?   Ashton (18:43) Yeah, so we're kind of doing it a little bit backwards. Most private equity firms, they start with raising capital and then they're going out and buying the asset and then they're outsourcing their vendors. So one of those vendors being property management and that's really where the gains and losses are happening is in the daily management style there. Then they realize and typically restructure   that they could be making more money. They could be increasing their bottom lines and everything else with that management. Everything hinges on the management when you're talking like hard assets in real estate, whether that's multifamily commercial, you know, residence, whatever it is. ⁓ So when they bring it in-house, they are restructuring. And there's also been a huge problem with   Jason Hull (19:36) Yeah.   Ashton (19:41) And I've been hearing this lately, huge problem with investor capital really not being watched out for by these firms because they're outsourcing all their vendors. What we did instead is I had already have the acquisition engine through our brokerage. We've already got all the systems set up in place for our property management firms, both short and long. Now we added the private equity firm. I have a series 65. So we're actually a state registered   Jason Hull (19:51) Right.   Ashton (20:10) like investment advisory firm for true asset management on the back end, which a lot of private equity firms do not have that. And then we added the capital. So we literally just did it backwards. And now we're focused on acquiring not only hard assets with cash flowing tenant occupied portfolios that meet certain metrics. We have to have a certain   Jason Hull (20:12) Okay.   Okay.   .   Ashton (20:37) IRR, we have to have a certain cap rate and a certain cash on cash return to even peak our interest. The other thing that we're buying is property management businesses. So we are working on acquisitions right now. We just completed one last week and we've got two more in the hopper. So we are going in and offering these off-market portfolios, know, minimum 20 up to, you   We have no limit on how many we'll buy, like minimum 20 units and we want creative financing. So we want to structure the deal where the seller and the owner is holding the majority of that note. We're using investor capital for the down payment. We're saving some to hedge for ⁓ reserves and we're going in and buying these companies to add to our revenue and our to our bottom line.   Jason Hull (21:35) I love it.   Ashton (21:36) Roll   up. That's the name and the term that's used in the private equity space is roll up.   Jason Hull (21:42) Roll-up, got it. So I've seen some of these companies in the past. I had a client, he eventually exited and sold his business to Home River Group. He had like 2,000 doors. So then he was kind more of a partner in Home River Group, 30,000 eventually. And he became kind of a consultant that would come in and these roll-ups that were being done in some instances, because they did it the reverse way from what you did, they thought they could just throw money at the problem.   So they went and acquired a whole bunch of property management companies. Sometimes, like some companies would acquire like 10,000 doors. Then they would fire like 7,000 of them because they realized there was so much garbage and it was difficult to manage. And then they thought they could just put in or install a property manager in and then the business would just run. But no real leadership for the boots on the ground. And so they would bring him in as a consultant. He would go in, fire everybody.   Ashton (22:34) Mm.   Jason Hull (22:42) organize a team, build a business and act as an interim CEO till he got the thing healthy and running. And he would make a lot of money because they were losing a lot of money trying to make this work. And people don't realize how hard property management can be. And so I think, yes, property managers have an advantage because they have the hardest piece of this entire puzzle, it sounds like.   Ashton (23:05) Yeah, it definitely is because you're dealing with you're dealing with tenants, you're dealing with the day to day your you are the boots on the ground. So that is why it is so important before we started any of this, I wanted to make sure that we had the proper systems in place that we could scale 500 more doors without blinking an eye. That is where you have to have that mindset and like you have to know what's going on before adding because when you just add   doors and just think that exactly what you said add doors and thinking that that's just going to like solve your problem you're just multiplying your problem whatever problems you have at 20 doors is going to be 10 fold at a thousand doors or more so ⁓ and more just doesn't necessarily equal better and that is one reason like in our contracts we actually do have clawbacks so if we do end up getting rid of owners that just aren't a fit   our purchase price is reduced down from the seller. So it gives the seller an incentive to ensure that they're selling us a good.   Jason Hull (24:11) Got it, yeah, that's important to have all that's in any sort of acquisition deal. So for other property managers that are looking to get into private equity and they're looking at maybe starting to do this, because they're like, you know what, I've got a healthy property management company, we've got the systems in place, is there somebody that I can partner with on this that already knows how to do it or can I go and learn to do this?   What would you say between those two options and where would you send them?   Ashton (24:43) Really? It depends on the person. This isn't for everybody. know, you, what I would recommend, and this is honestly what I tell anybody, no matter what business they're in, if they're thinking about growing, where do you want to be in three years? And let's reverse engineer it from there. So if you want to, like for us, our, our plan is to roll up to about 5,500 doors and then exit. So   Jason Hull (24:45) Yeah.   Got it.   Ashton (25:12) I already knew where I wanted to be. And so like, I wanted to exit at a certain amount. So I was like, how do I get to this amount? And then I just backed it up from there. ⁓ but that's, everybody's going to have a different goal. So I would highly recommend just like starting with that initial goal. that's, if that goal is freedom, if it is like, you want to be able to exit, you want to have, you want to just run a massive company, whatever it is, start there and then figure it out backwards.   Jason Hull (25:21) Okay.   Ashton (25:41) As far as bringing on capital and investor capital, whether they want to partner with somebody or if they want to like bring on debt, that's also a comfort level thing. ⁓ And it also depends on like what you and that other person that's bringing in the capital agree to and what you both feel like is the optimal solution. But before doing that, definitely educate yourself and find someone ⁓ either as a consultant like   Right now I am doing a little bit of consulting work for ⁓ different ⁓ funds as well as like companies like, you know, like what we're doing ⁓ for, you know, to help them with what their goals are. Let's back it up and then let's go from there. And like just adding some advice and getting them in touch with the right people that they need as far as connections. Analysts, numbers are so important when you're talking with investors.   You can't just be like, I think it's going to make this an investor, especially a sophisticated one is not going to go for that. Maybe friends and family will what I call country club money, but ⁓ a sophisticated investor, absolutely not. They're going to want to see a pro forma. ⁓ So there's so many steps involved before you ever, ever, ever bring on a dime of investor capital. So.   Jason Hull (26:51) Yep.   Ashton (27:09) I'm sorry, that's not like a ⁓ space.   Jason Hull (27:10) So, well, it sounds like   the path is maybe this. Like if you're a property manager first, you got to get your side of the room clean. You got to get your business tight. You got to get operations working, maybe reach out to DoorGro, get a little help, but you got to get things really well dialed in because it doesn't make sense to go start playing with other people's money and be on the hook for other people's money and investors.   Ashton (27:20) Yes.   was not.   Jason Hull (27:36) if you don't really feel like you have the ability to scale, you don't really feel like you can handle stuff, because if once money starts flowing and doors start adding, then if your stuff is okay, it's going to be stress tested and probably not okay. So that's probably first. Next, they need to learn about private equity, figure out that game, and then even once you figure out how that all works, then you've got to get good at selling it, which you are already a natural, you know...   Ashton (27:51) Yeah, exactly.   Jason Hull (28:05) Salesperson, you've invested a lot towards figuring that out, but then you're going out and you have to raise the cap.   Ashton (28:11) Raising capital is literally one of the hardest jobs. It is insane because you want to build a relationship and you want someone to trust you, but you're also asking for a check. And so it's trying to balance the relationship aspect as well as the transactional aspect. And it's even harder as a woman because private equity is definitely, ⁓ there's not a lot of women in this field.   Jason Hull (28:32) Yeah.   Ashton (28:41) ⁓ so it's even harder being like of the opposite gender. ⁓ so there's a lot to balance there. so getting, getting comfortable asking, but not being pushy. It's that I've learned so much from.   Jason Hull (28:56) As a woman, you've had   to take maybe a more feminine approach or you go in hot the way most guys would.   Ashton (29:04) It depends on the person.   It depends on my audience. You have to sell the way somebody wants to buy. So I've learned not to, at the beginning, I was definitely very transactional. And I've learned ⁓ through a dear friend of mine that to be more relationship-based and then that will come a little bit later with the transaction. ⁓ But at the same time, because I'm like,   Jason Hull (29:11) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Ashton (29:32) I need to know now. Like, I don't want to waste my time. I don't want to waste their time. We just need to lay it out on the table right now. They need to know what I'm here for. ⁓ I've had to like roll that back a little bit. And since I have, the checks have been definitely coming in a little bit smoother. So it was a huge learning experience for me.   Jason Hull (29:51) Yeah.   Ashton, how old are you right now for those listening? All they've heard is 23.   Ashton (29:59) I'm 30 now.   Jason Hull (30:01) 30 now, okay, you're 30 years old, you're doing amazing things. What amount of capital are you raising right now? Like what's your goal?   Ashton (30:05) Yeah.   Yeah, so we do different like rounds or like tranches of raising and it right now we are raising for specific projects. So as the projects come up, then we go out to our current investors first and then to like new potential investors next. ⁓ So in the spring, we're about to start doing another raise for ⁓ one, a business and then two, a couple other. ⁓   real estate portfolios that I'm looking at. ⁓ So that is going to be around the $800,000 mark of capital. And typically we do like minimum commitments of 100 because when you get into smaller amounts, typically the investors that are, I just become a little bit more needy because they're only, they're not as sophisticated and we want to deal with the investors who are.   Jason Hull (31:06) Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. Very cool. Sounds like you're doing really cool things. So Ashton, for those that are listening and they're curious about you, they're curious about maybe getting into this, you mentioned you do some consulting, you mentioned there may be investors or maybe they want to get in on some of the investing stuff that you're doing. How can they get in touch with you?   Ashton (31:29) Yeah, so they can send us an email. That would be the best way to you can send it to info at FX to capital calm. ⁓ And we, you know, are one of our interns checks that email on the daily. ⁓ So then we can set up an investor call and go through really well what your goals are. What is your portfolio look like right now?   How are you diversifying yourself? And maybe we can talk about what we can do to help increase that, maybe rebalance you a little bit within the private space and in the private markets.   Jason Hull (32:06) Cool, well property managers, if you're listening, I think Ashton's definitely doing something that's very cool. A lot of you probably could get in on this or create some sort of alliance or relationships that could allow you to be part of something like this. Even if it's just you're getting doors from other people that are in the private equity space that are rolling up a bunch of investment properties, this would be easy doors for you to get on if you really could do a good job. And it sounds like that's the linchpin, that's the hardest piece of the puzzle.   And if you're a good property manager, you've got that down then. So you've got a competitive advantage. So Ashwin, I appreciate you coming on and sharing this here on the board.   Ashton (32:43) Thank you.   Yeah, that was so much fun. It was so great talking to you.   Jason Hull (32:48) Awesome, so we'll go ahead and wrap up. For those of you that are feeling stuck, stagnant, you want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com for a free training on how to get unlimited free leads. Text the word leads to 512-648-4608. Also join our free Facebook community. It's just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you want tips, tricks, ideas to learn maybe about some of our offers,   subscribe to our newsletter by going to doorgrow.com slash subscribe. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review. Anything like that would really help us out. We would appreciate it. And until next time, remember, the slowest, absolute slowest path to growth is to do it alone. And you heard Ashton, she's leveraging a lot of people to do what she's doing to grow. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

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Alright, whether you are in a closet or in Tokyo let's clear the air here with some sold cold, easy treats. We get deep into history and call Mr. Etymology on his vacation to taste 12 cool cakes and debate The Useless Pumpkins. I'll tell you right now, if you don't like the word 'moist' you aren't going to like this episode because M & M taste opera cakes, cheese cakes, cream cakes, tree cakes and tea cakes before naming their favorite glycerides, bugbears and jingle hits finally ending the episode with a brazen bowl selection. JustOneCookbook Castella Cake    Support Spilled Milk Podcast!Molly's SubstackMatthew's Bands: Early to the Airport and Twilight DinersProducer Abby's WebsiteListen to our spinoff show Dire DesiresJoin our reddit Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Re-releasing a DAT listener favorite! Dr. Dave Moghadam joins Kiera to discuss getting your hygiene team on the same page and at the same point of understanding. He shares his approach, and goes deeper into the following: Gather all information and establish a flow of procedure Hold a longer meeting for your hygiene team to review and add their own ideas Allow a period of follow-up for questions Transition into monthly or quarterly meetings to continually update Dr. Moghadam utilized the Dental A-Team's hygiene course to help him come up with this approach to calibrate his hygienist team. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: speaker-0 (00:05) Hey everyone, welcome to the Dental A Team podcast. I'm your host, Kiera Dent, and I have this crazy idea that maybe I could combine a doctor and a team member's perspective, because let's face it, dentistry can be a challenging profession with those two perspectives. I've been a dental assistant, treatment coordinator, scheduler, filler, office manager, regional manager, practice owner, and I have a team of traveling consultants where we have traveled to over 165 different offices coaching teams. Yep, we don't just understand you, we are you.   Our mission is to positively impact the world of dental. And I believe that this podcast is the greatest way I can help elevate teams, grow VIP experiences, reduce stress, and create A-Teams. Welcome to the Dental A Team Podcast.   Hello Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And you guys, I am so excited to bring back on one of my favorite guests, one of your favorite guests, somebody who is in the real life with you guys. He is a practicing dentist, rocks our office. I've known him for quite a while. And he's a man that creates systems, implements and executes. And today I'm jazzed to bring him back on. Dr. Dave Moghadam, how are you today?   speaker-1 (01:13) Wonderful, Kiera. Thanks for having me back. appreciate it. It's gonna be a blast as always.   speaker-0 (01:17) It's   gonna be great if you guys have not heard his other ones we've talked about we've gone from acquiring practices Bringing on associate doctors. We've talked about team quarterly calibrations and now we're gonna dive into something that you started I actually think you started it maybe COVID maybe you're doing it pre-covid ⁓ But but it's going to be diving into hygiene calibration, which I think is so relevant. I mean right now hi, Janice are like more Harder to find than unicorns in my opinion. They're like real real tricky   But we just know that they're real. I think it's a great time actually to bring this in. So Dave, kind of walk us through, like I said, you're practicing, Dennis, this is your real life. This is what you're doing really in your practice, which is why I love having on the podcast. So kind of take us away on this hygiene calibration, how you even got the idea for it, what spurred that. I'd love to hear.   speaker-1 (02:08) Yeah, so I think as far as like, how did this come about? What was the situation? Everything like that. Some of the key things that were happening were I had focused a lot on a lot of the rest of the practice, like a lot on systemize this, do this, let's grow and everything else was just really just taking off. But the one thing year after year after year that was kind of like fairly consistent, not really like, my God, really, you know, growing was the hygiene department.   So I started to look into things of, how can we just improve? And I always feel like if we improve some of the other basic stuff, the numbers fall. So I think a lot of the things that I was ⁓ looking to do was just getting some consistency, make sure everybody's on the same page. At that point, had gotten, yeah, this was about two years ago. So we had just gotten a new hygienist to join our team who's been with us ⁓ since then.   We had another hygienist who was only there a day a week at that time. So it was kind of a little difficult to try and get everything all buttoned up. the way I went about it was one, I first took the big chunk of what we had in our operations manual, such as protocols, expectations, standards, record keeping, all that stuff. And then the other thing is I   contacted you and I said, Hey, what do you have for this? Because we're all going to be on our butts for a while when the world closed down for a little bit. we went through the hygiene course. I took some, some pearls from there. tried to organize things a little bit more. Uh, we did a little bit of coaching with, Tiffany as well, uh, virtually then. So we basically, the, outline for this, you know, it was basically protocols standards, you know, what   ⁓ record keeping, know, what if you encounter some hiccups with patients, you know, as far as, know, those types of situations, ⁓ you know, what's the appointment flow like, what's the communication, like what are the key points that we want to hit on, ⁓ teeing up the doctor, pre-teeing up the doctor, which I'll get into in a little bit. ⁓ And then, you know, a lot of this is kind of reviewing our, basically chunking out our routes.   is very detailed and that kind of like highlights a lot of this stuff. And then we get into you know some basis of treatment planning, incorporating some bundles which is a concept that you guys helped us you know incorporate and bring in, and then just talking about some of the other basic stuff like how do we talk about fluoride, you know why is it important to ask for referrals, and then you know financial discussions which basically means just don't have the financial.   speaker-0 (04:56) Right. Yes, I love it. Well, and I love it. Something I wanted to point out is I feel like there's actually a ton of opportunities all around us. It's just, we willing to see them and then actually execute on them? So you saw COVID as a time we're all hanging out. We've got nothing to do. This is the area that I haven't spent any time on. So like, let's make this rock solid. And I think there's so many opportunities like that. Hopefully not another pandemic shutdown, but there.   all around us all the time. So Dave, let's actually deep dive if you don't mind on a lot of these topics. I know that's kind what we came today for just so people get an idea of how you calibrated your hygiene team on this. Like you gave the resources. Yes guys, if you want to get our hygiene course, we're constantly updating it. It's getting ready to move to all videos. Once you purchase the course, you have it for life. definitely   speaker-1 (05:43) You're kidding, right? I wonder who gave that suggestion.   speaker-0 (05:46) That was Dave, which is great because I came in with steal of a deal and said like give me honest feedback and then I felt bad your team was going through as we were rampantly   speaker-1 (05:56) That's really going to button it up. ⁓   speaker-0 (05:59) Good   good. So we're working on videos working on audio, but we're constantly updating and innovating it and asking for your guys's feedback So if that's helpful for you fantastic, like Dave said we did do virtual calls with his hygiene team very spot specific but kind of like walk us down through this Of like what exactly does this calibration look like you listed those items kind of deep dive with us on it. Yeah   speaker-1 (06:19) Yeah,   that was just a lot of verbal diarrhea there. I just kind of threw it out there. So we'll break it down. We'll go section by section. Yeah. is what happens. So basically, as far as protocols and standards and things like that, I mean, that's just kind of the basics of what are we expected to do. It's kind of like if you think of onboarding, it's repetitive. It's a review. But kind of like, what do you expect to do in the morning, during the appointment, at the end of the day, kind of going through, making sure everybody knows what the   all that looks like, making sure that they're very clear on like what's expected for the end of day sheets that, you know, that they take pictures of and turn in every day, all that stuff. You know, record keeping, you know, how often are we doing, you know, probing, how often are we taking x-rays, you know, what kind of photos do we expect? And then as far as like pickups that relate to that, I mean, we, I think of it in a positive way, half our patient base is 60 and a   I love it. It's a really a wonderful type of practice, but in over the past five years of, ⁓ know, initially early on transitioning and taking over a practice like that, and then taking in other practices like that, we get a lot of stuff where people think that the X-ray head is gonna melt their faces. And, you know, because of that, it's kind of like, well, let's figure out a way, what's gonna be our kind of standardized way of how we're gonna address these concerns.   What are we going to go ahead and do? So we like a little pamphlet basically that shows some examples of things, why we take x-rays, what could be missed, all that stuff. Very simple, very straightforward. Has a little chart that we just kind of found somewhere on Google about radiation, the mouse, like that. And they kind of have their set kind of like, hey, we go through all that stuff. And if it kind of becomes a push versus shove moment, they have to come grab me, which I don't really love, but it is what it is.   And then we kind of go from there. So that's not to get sidetracked, but that's kind of, you know, one of those things. Like when we have situations where things may not necessarily go smoothly, it doesn't matter what the actual answer is. Everybody just has to know it.   speaker-0 (08:23) Right, right. No, I love that. And I was going to say, Dave, based on our last podcast we did, you know, they've to come get you maybe throw that into your calibration role play. What do we say to these patients? ⁓ But I really do.   speaker-1 (08:36) I don't necessarily want to encourage.   I like to do dental treatment and sit at my desk and drink water.   speaker-0 (08:43) I definitely agree and that's what I feel like most dentists feel. So I like that. So with that, I like that you do that. So how does this kind of hygiene calibration look? Do you do it consistently? Is it like once a year that you do it? Did the hygienist help create it with you? They brought up the issues that they were coming with. I kind of break it down. Like if I'm a brand new office, I don't really know. I want to do this. I'm hearing you do this. What are kind of the steps to be able to actually get this into my practice and start running it?   speaker-1 (09:10) Yeah, so I think the big thing is I think you gotta just like deep dive into it, like do it once over whether it's like one really long appointment or like maybe a couple of weeks of a couple of hours. I think it's a lot to try and like just be like, yeah, you're gonna like remember all of this stuff. Like even if we do every three months, stuff like that. ⁓ And right after we did it, we were doing weekly hygiene meetings.   So we kind of will like chunk out, you know, little pieces of this to kind of get a little bit more granular or kind of talk about how we improve doing weekly meetings is a lot, it just was really, and we were just being very, very inconsistent with it. So I was kind of like, ⁓ like it's Tuesday and yesterday was Monday and Monday was really hard. And now I'm really tired and you know, Dr. Seth's not here today and I'm around all morning. So you know what? I just feel like,   not doing this at once. That's what would happen. So now we basically have at least one scheduled each month and a second one that's kind of like floating. Where so that one we're going to no matter what kind of go through some of this. And then if there's another topic that we kind of want to dial, you know, dive into a little bit more, that's at the second one. It makes it a lot more manageable to go ahead and do things that way. I think when you chunk it out like that, these are not like 20, 30 minutes. You know I'm saying? Like, you know, after everybody's kind of   had some time to relax before we're to start to see our patients again. But I think the first thing is really making a big, you know, let's get all the information organized together. Let's go through it all. Let's make sure somebody's on the same page. ⁓ I would assume, you know, as we're going to hopefully be onboarding, we'll find an onboarding another hygienist, you know, over the next several months, it would be something that would be a big chunk of the onboarding process. But I think, you know,   we'll get to it. I mean, there's a lot, a lot more to go through, but I think having done this for a while and I realized sometimes when you kind of have this, even if somebody, if they've helped make it and you're kind of just driving those points home sometimes, you know, like we talked about in our podcast, things will get stale or there's a way to do it better. And I really have felt that, you know, uh, over time, if I've in the times that I've tried to really, you know, ask for feedback and listen in an environment that doesn't seem so   confrontational, know, hygienists and all my team members really sometimes bring these just like amazing, wonderful ideas that I never really would have thought of about. And that's really how I think it really kind of starts to really grow and evolve. And that's hard because, you know, a lot of times everybody, every team member is different. And we have some that are a little...   touchy about things. And a lot of times I try and explain that, you know, everything that we were talking about here is not like, Hey, you did like a crap job at this. It's kind of like, Hey, like, I want to try and see how we can make this a better situation for our patients, for you, for me, is there a way that we can maybe try this to see if this is better? Like what suggestions do you have? want to make sure you know, overall,   That's the thing, because I always am that type of person that's like, let's make this better, better, better. Sometimes people think it's like, hey, you're doing a not good job. like, no, you're doing a great job. I just don't sit still. And that's kind of a problem. I'm sorry it comes across that. So I've gotten my office manager a little bit more involved as far as like, you know, she's in the meetings as well and asking some more of these questions that I think it's led to a little bit less of a like.   confrontation, a lot of this confrontation, but less, you know, heated kind of environment. That's a great idea has come out of things here.   speaker-0 (12:53) Well, I think it's because you're also getting into that. Yeah, you're also calibrating with them. And so it becomes more of a learning versus a dictation. And that's where I think the freedom is the freedom to come up with ideas, the freedom to give that feedback when it's when it's coming together to calibrate and to connect versus judging critique. And so I feel like you did a good job of spinning it getting everyone there. So if I'm breaking this down for an office, it sounds like one.   gather all the information of like kind of the flow of the procedure. Like what is it, what's involved in that? Thinking of, mean, Dave gave you a really great checklist real quick of those items. And then from there, it sounds like set up a time, maybe over lunch, maybe do a longer one to two hour meeting where you kind of have the outline of it, go through it all. I did this with an office that I was consulting with and I literally gave them about an hour and a half. They went through the whole process, looked at everything, added pieces in. And then the next day we followed up, it was very short.   Just to make sure like what questions that they have Then they can roll into like monthly meetings on this or or every quarter just kind of calibrating reviewing checking to see But I thought you also brought up a good point of making sure that once it is solidified Which again duns better than perfect because guys it will never be perfect. It will constantly updated So don't spend your next three and sixty five days trying to perfect this darn thing like get it done So it's at least something for when you onboard people and then continually update it as well. So   Dave, you had said there's more that you want to dive into. So take it away. I'm not going to stop you. Give some examples.   speaker-1 (14:20) No,   for sure. mean, there's a lot. we've gotten talked about, you know, protocols, standards, record keeping stuff, you know, kind of any hiccups like in that, you know, so making sure everybody knows what the expectations are, you know, what to do if there's there's pushback there. The next thing we kind of will dive into is the flow of the appointment. You know, every office is different in how they want to go ahead and do things. You know, I always feel and I'm not the best at this, even though I preach it all the time.   that if you wait until like the last five, 10 minutes of the appointment and you sell somebody like, hey, you have all this stuff that's wrong inside your head, like you just run out the door. So I always feel that in the first 20 minutes, should be, records should be, ⁓ all gathered together, hygienists should start reviewing everything that they potentially see as a problem, kind of warming things up in a sense with the patients there.   and the doctor in that sometime in that next 20 minute window, ideally, somewhere between 20 after 30 after can get in there, talk about what the situation is. And then this time the patient has more time where they can ask questions, go over things. The front office has the heads up if it's something that's involved. Although a lot of times, honestly, if it's more than, it kind of moved more towards this.   If it's more than a couple of things and somebody is going to be in a sense spending more than 5,000 bucks, may want to set up even a small appointment just to re-review things, you know, with the doctor or somebody upfront or something like that. Cause it's all, it's a lot that they can. And honestly, a lot of times, you know, five, 10 minutes doesn't really do the justice that some people will need to really understand what the problem situation is and really own that.   speaker-0 (16:10) Right.   speaker-1 (16:11) comes   across as kind of like, my God, they want like, you know, 10 grand from me. I don't even know what the hell's going on.   speaker-0 (16:17) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. No, you're exactly right. And I think something I love that you just talked about on that is you actually helped your team make better decisions without you always having to answer it by saying, hey, I want a consult if it's over 5,000, this is where we should be setting up a consult. I literally just had an office ask me, hey, Kiera, when do you recommend setting up a consult? And I'm like, it's doctor dependent. Because some doctors are presenting 30, 40, 50,000 and they're like, those are fine. It's just laissez faire.   Other dentists are saying, like, no, over, you know, five grand, 10 grand, let's bring them back for a consult. But by having this, like, just expectations and helping your team know the parameters, they can then make a lot smarter decisions moving forward. Independent and confident.   speaker-1 (17:03) There may be other people out there who are very slick and can get somebody to give them $30,000 in three minutes. That's just, that's.   speaker-0 (17:10) Right, right, exactly. Exactly.   speaker-1 (17:12) But   at the end of the day, wouldn't want it to be like that. The way we kind of do everything is like, let's really kind of make sure somebody understands something, makes feels comfortable with the decisions that they're making. Because I would much rather not do anything if somebody doesn't feel comfortable with it than do it and have an issue.   speaker-0 (17:29) For sure, absolutely.   speaker-1 (17:31) So I mean, think that's a newer thing that we're kind of moving towards. I think we kind of ballpark it in a sense. Sometimes it's not even a financial thing. Let's say somebody has been going to the same dentist for a long time, they show up and then it's like, my God, there's like, know, 16 surfaces of decay. And like, it's just like, okay, well, yeah, this is not gonna be a two minute conversation. This is like, hey, I see a lot of things going on. Let me highlight them for you, but let's have you come back and let's really talk about, you know,   what the options are and if something really involved I encourage them to bring a friend or a family member or a second set of years somebody that they can rely on as well because it's a lot of information you it can be overwhelming.   speaker-0 (18:12) Wow.   Right. Exactly. But I think like overarching big picture on this is you got your hygiene team calibrated with you. You got them because at the end of the day, I feel like hygienists tee up so much for the doctors. They're the ones who spend so much time with these patients. Doctors run in, run out, like you said. I also love that for you. And again, this is doctor preference. Some doctors don't like to do exams when they're not polished and clean, but I like your actually really love your thought process on it. You're right. If you come to an exam,   Lastly, right before that patient leaves, there is no time for them to ask questions to anybody but the front desk. And oftentimes if they have a lot of questions, they're out the door if they plan to be there for an hour. Whereas if they had exam can be in the middle of the appointment, they can ask questions to that hygienist. That hygienist can re-emphasize treatment as well, helping them see like, this is why, can you fill this catch with my instrument here? Like this is what Dr. Mogadam was talking about. So I really love that philosophy and I love that   Again, I think what I'm pulling from this that I hope a lot of other offices are hearing is that you are giving them confidence to make decisions independent of you that are in a line with the direction you want the practice to go. And when people have confidence, they know how to win the day, they've helped co-create it with you, they know how to give the patient the best experience, that gives team members freedom. That gives team members so much, like, just...   just help and greatness that they can do. So I really, really love that you brought that up and how you calibrated your hygiene team. Any other thoughts you have on it, Dave?   speaker-1 (19:43) other thing that I would mention that it's kind of beneficial if I actually get off my butt and show up at the time that I'm supposed to is let's say somebody has something that's not like, my God, over the top, like, you know, taking out a tooth, graphing it, placing an implant, restoring it, lot of in that. And we have like explosion codes in open dental, but somebody still has to kind of organize it. And then I always want that double checking kind of, you know.   What are we anticipating that their insurance may help them with all that stuff, kind of doing the breakdown. So, oh, know, a lot of times if it's something a little bit more involved, we don't need to bring somebody back though. I'll just walk up front and just say, hey, you know, we're doing this, this and this for Mrs. Jones. Just make sure you have that ready. So it's a much quicker, easier checkout process and just immediately get them scheduled. know, anything beyond like a couple of things, I usually make an effort to walk up there, give them a heads up and, you know, sit at my computer for a minute or two.   a fish, not a   speaker-0 (20:38) For sure. I love it. And again, I think it's important like guys, Dr. Dave here is telling you like this is what he prefers. This is his style. This is his flow. This is the vibe he likes to have and he's been able to create it in his practice. I will tell you from a team member's perspective and I'll be all I want my doctor super happy. That's literally what makes me so happy. So if I know that Dr. Dave wants to go drink his coffee and wants me to take care of everything else and he's given me the parameters of what to do. Awesome. I'm going to take it on.   If I know Dr. Dave's a dentist who doesn't want to let go, I'm probably going to push him a little bit and remind him he should let go because I got this for him. But at the end of the day, I'm going to do what I can to make him super happy because I know when my doctor's happy, that's one, what I'm there to do as an assistant, as a front office. I'm there to help my doctor's lives be so simple and easy and also to give our patients the best experience. So I just love like you, you looped it all together. You gave the parameters, you co-created with them.   and then you, now you get to have the life that you want to have. Go drink your coffee before seeing your patients, whatever it's needed, because then you also probably have a much smoother day that you look forward to. You probably enjoy dentistry a lot more, which means you're probably going to be a better diagnoser. You're probably going to be better to our patients, probably do better clinical because you are happier. You've got it set. We're able to all flow and gel, which is how the whole practice can move smoother.   speaker-1 (22:00) definitely. And not to sidetrack us, I'm going to forget if I mention it now. could set something up another time to kind of talk about scheduling protocols as far as how to remember to put borders together for bigger procedures that are multi-step and even also actually creating a schedule where everybody's going to be happy. Because there's the concept of block scheduling, but there's also the concept of what we started doing. I mentioned this to you a little while ago where we schedule based on the types of   procedures that we want to do, not necessarily financial values and stuff like that. And just like with most things that I do, that's not something that I learned myself or created out of thin air. You know, it was something that I heard in other podcasts that I love. They call it in their terms, they call it priority. You know, creating priorities for the types of dentistry that you want to do, which in my mind is way better. You know, I always gear towards things of like,   How do we want to go ahead and make things a better experience for our patients? How do we want to do more of the types of dentistry that we want to do rather than like we're chasing this magic number at the end of the day? Because as for myself, for my team, I know that doesn't really push the needle. But when we kind of talk about all the steps of what's going to get us there, all the stuff that the numbers go up and down, it's good. And then we keep the lights on and we continue to grow and we help more people and employ more.   speaker-0 (23:19) I love it. I love it. And I'm so glad that you said that and I agree. I think that'd be a really fun podcast to dive into. Because again, scheduling, and I love hearing it from a doctor's perspective, because I will harp on this all day long and say a schedule that you want is actually the best schedule for your patients. Because you're happier, you deliver better dentistry. And when you guys have those boundaries in there, it's so much happier for everybody. So I definitely want to dive into that. I also want to dive into our IT podcast as well, which will be a real fun one.   But to wrap up on hygiene calibration, how often, Dave, do you recalibrate with your hygiene team?   speaker-1 (23:58) So it's not something that we've done. It's just mostly because we do our meetings. So we kind of loop around on areas that are kind of falling through the cracks a little bit and then expanding on other teams. And a lot of times, you know, we'll get, ⁓ because of what we've talked about where we have like these discussions, ⁓ we'll incorporate some other great things. like we were kind of at certain times where things were getting a little bit lost in the shuffle as far as like, consistently doing probing at the times that we want to or basically having the ⁓   the appropriate codes in for when we're checking the patients out and you something gets lost in the shuffle of the handoff and this and that. So one of the hygienists thought of a great idea of, why don't we create just a dummy code for probing as well? And then, know, when then we talk about how like, you know, when you're creating your next appointment, put everything in that's going to be there, you know, put in put in the probing, put in whatever x-rays are necessary, put it all there. And then when you're doing you're basically you're setting up for the morning huddle.   in six months, it's very easy. All that stuff is basically there. And then we can start focusing on some of the stuff that I want to focus more on as far as like this stuff that actually relates to the patients, what's going on with them, their lives, because everybody can read the schedule, you know? So if that part is not important. Yeah. Yeah. Side note, I don't really love our morning puzzles. That's something we're going to work   speaker-0 (25:18) That's the next calibration one there Dave. So don't worry. got lots of tips on morning huddle I've revamped those many times and many practices, but I like it. ahead   speaker-1 (25:30) Yeah, I think getting back to some of the other things that we kind of talk about aside from, you know, appointment flow and everything like that. A lot of what we want the, you know, to all talk about, we have a nice route. So if it kind of goes over, like these are all the things we're checking. So, you know, that makes kind of teeing up the doctor pretty, pretty easy there for the most part. What I wanted to mention about pre-teeing up the doctor is let's say you get another doctor in the practice and it's   it's the first time, it's the second time, it's the third time, whatever time it is, people are going to be like, who is this human being that is walking in the door? So, you know, I think really, you know, taking a second and making sure that, you know, the hygienist know, you know, when they know it's going to be that doctor doing the exam, they know what to say. So what we kind of scripted out here is, you know, we've been fortunate enough to continue to grow as a practice to make sure that we spend enough quality time with each patient.   You know, Dr. So-and-so has joined our team. We're happy that we found another great doctor who shares our philosophies to join us and help take care of our patients. I'm so excited for you to meet them. I love it. know, something like that ahead of time is disarming. It sets everything up. It shows that we have, you know, confidence in this other person who's joined our team, that it's not a second rate situation and they're being pushed to the side. I love And then, yeah.   speaker-0 (26:55) Well, and something else that I want to point out is Dave, you have this all on a PowerPoint. You actually shared it with me, which I appreciate a ton. and something I love about is you've got pictures in there, you've got verbiage in there, you've got links in there and you update it, but that's a very quick, easy onboarding packet as well to give a new hygienist joining your team. It's also very quick for you to update it. And then there's no question of what is that? And so, and I also love that you guys use the route slip. I think that's a pro tip. If you guys aren't doing that open dental.   This is only for our open dental offices. There might be some others, Dentrix and Eaglesoft. Sorry, Charlie, you're out. But you can actually edit your route slips and you can put these questions in there. So a lot of the things like I'm big on not depending on human memories. I think the human brain is brilliant. I also think a lot of times in practices we try to implement new behaviors, but it takes quite a while for that new behavior to actually take off. So constantly thinking of if you want this to be hygiene checklist.   how could you make a quick checklist? If you can't put it on your route slip, you can create a laminated checklist that they check off for you for every patient. Some offices who work in Dentrix and Eagle Soft, they literally have their hygiene checklist printed on one piece of paper and then on the backside of it, that's where they print their route slips. So lots of ways to get creative with this. But what it sounds like you've done, Dave, is you went through the philosophies with your hygienist, you had them help co-create it, you've given them the parameters so you have a great schedule.   And then we also put into play a way for them not to forget. And that's, think, a key piece to success. And then you're continually talking about this in your quarterly meeting. So I would say for offices wanting to do this one, just start, like start right down every piece, get information, learn, get your hygienist together and get it all put together. Again, Dave, I love that you put it in a PowerPoint. Two, make sure that everybody's aligned. Three, add to it, have a set cadence of when you'll do it. Are you going to do it on a quarterly calibration?   Are you going to do it once a year where you review it, make sure it's up to date. But that's where oftentimes these great systems, these great protocols come into play, but fall off the bandwagon because we don't have a set cadence to do it. So Dave, I love it. I love you guys like breaking it down. And I'd say for all those offices wanting to do it, go for it. Reach out to Dr. Dave. He's awesome. start though, he gave you a really great list. Read, listen to this podcast, write it down. He gave you a lot of step-by-steps. know that's hours and hours of work that he put into this.   Lots of resources, lots of time that you guys already have a jumpstart. So take what he's given you, execute on it, and have a really calibrated hygiene team. So Dave, any last thoughts? I love what you've done. Thank you for sharing. It's always fun. You have so many great ideas that you love to share.   speaker-1 (29:34) I mean, I think there's a lot more that we could dive into. I think some of the other key takeaways is, I mean, working with somebody like yourself or other people, they can kind of give you some more of these ideas. Like we wouldn't have thought about kind of bundling procedures, things like that, trying to make things a little bit more clear overall. ⁓ Other key things as far as,   new patient blocks, lot of these key principles, all these other things, incorporating them and making sure that everybody's on the same page. Because we started to do that, didn't really have a discussion with the hygiene team. They started just not, you know, regarding or understanding that and putting things in. Then it's a whole big to do in a sense to try and reorganize the schedule there too. So one, if you're going to continue to learn and grow and incorporate new things, one, I encourage it and you should, but you should probably talk to everybody and not forget to do that.   speaker-0 (30:28) Amen, I do it all the time guilty Guilty people like care you forgot. I'm like, yeah There's like seven other people attached to this decision and I forgot to share with all of you and Dave Thank you for that agreed if we can help you guys I know Dave you reached out to us for resources. We also did virtual training with your team. We come to your practice So if there are ways this is something that you guys want help getting kicked off the ground by all means Please reach out to us. You can email us. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com   this is literally what we are made to do. This is what we love to do is where we are passion lies. and just kind of being that outside, think outside the box, giving ideas to, to make your life easier and more efficient. So Dave, as always, I appreciate you. Thanks for being on our podcast today. Thanks for sharing your ideas. You're just a wealth of knowledge. So thank you. All right guys, that wraps it up. Go execute. Don't just take this knowledge. Think it's a great idea, but actually execute, stick it in your planner, in your schedule, on your calendar, wherever you need to.   so you actually make it happen because you are always just one decision away from a completely different life. All right,   always, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.   That wraps it up for another episode of the Dental A Team Podcast. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.  

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Jessica Slice, a disability activist and the author of Unfit Parent, a Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World. We discuss the effect of Jessica's disability on her life and parenting, and what non-disabled parents can learn from her about parenting.Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

From rewriting Google's search stack in the early 2000s to reviving sparse trillion-parameter models and co-designing TPUs with frontier ML research, Jeff Dean has quietly shaped nearly every layer of the modern AI stack. As Chief AI Scientist at Google and a driving force behind Gemini, Jeff has lived through multiple scaling revolutions from CPUs and sharded indices to multimodal models that reason across text, video, and code.Jeff joins us to unpack what it really means to “own the Pareto frontier,” why distillation is the engine behind every Flash model breakthrough, how energy (in picojoules) not FLOPs is becoming the true bottleneck, what it was like leading the charge to unify all of Google's AI teams, and why the next leap won't come from bigger context windows alone, but from systems that give the illusion of attending to trillions of tokens.We discuss:* Jeff's early neural net thesis in 1990: parallel training before it was cool, why he believed scaling would win decades early, and the “bigger model, more data, better results” mantra that held for 15 years* The evolution of Google Search: sharding, moving the entire index into memory in 2001, softening query semantics pre-LLMs, and why retrieval pipelines already resemble modern LLM systems* Pareto frontier strategy: why you need both frontier “Pro” models and low-latency “Flash” models, and how distillation lets smaller models surpass prior generations* Distillation deep dive: ensembles → compression → logits as soft supervision, and why you need the biggest model to make the smallest one good* Latency as a first-class objective: why 10–50x lower latency changes UX entirely, and how future reasoning workloads will demand 10,000 tokens/sec* Energy-based thinking: picojoules per bit, why moving data costs 1000x more than a multiply, batching through the lens of energy, and speculative decoding as amortization* TPU co-design: predicting ML workloads 2–6 years out, speculative hardware features, precision reduction, sparsity, and the constant feedback loop between model architecture and silicon* Sparse models and “outrageously large” networks: trillions of parameters with 1–5% activation, and why sparsity was always the right abstraction* Unified vs. specialized models: abandoning symbolic systems, why general multimodal models tend to dominate vertical silos, and when vertical fine-tuning still makes sense* Long context and the illusion of scale: beyond needle-in-a-haystack benchmarks toward systems that narrow trillions of tokens to 117 relevant documents* Personalized AI: attending to your emails, photos, and documents (with permission), and why retrieval + reasoning will unlock deeply personal assistants* Coding agents: 50 AI interns, crisp specifications as a new core skill, and how ultra-low latency will reshape human–agent collaboration* Why ideas still matter: transformers, sparsity, RL, hardware, systems — scaling wasn't blind; the pieces had to multiply togetherShow Notes:* Gemma 3 Paper* Gemma 3* Gemini 2.5 Report* Jeff Dean's “Software Engineering Advice fromBuilding Large-Scale Distributed Systems” Presentation (with Back of the Envelope Calculations)* Latency Numbers Every Programmer Should Know by Jeff Dean* The Jeff Dean Facts* Jeff Dean Google Bio* Jeff Dean on “Important AI Trends” @Stanford AI Club* Jeff Dean & Noam Shazeer — 25 years at Google (Dwarkesh)—Jeff Dean* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-dean-8b212555* X: https://x.com/jeffdeanGoogle* https://google.com* https://deepmind.googleFull Video EpisodeTimestamps00:00:04 — Introduction: Alessio & Swyx welcome Jeff Dean, chief AI scientist at Google, to the Latent Space podcast00:00:30 — Owning the Pareto Frontier & balancing frontier vs low-latency models00:01:31 — Frontier models vs Flash models + role of distillation00:03:52 — History of distillation and its original motivation00:05:09 — Distillation's role in modern model scaling00:07:02 — Model hierarchy (Flash, Pro, Ultra) and distillation sources00:07:46 — Flash model economics & wide deployment00:08:10 — Latency importance for complex tasks00:09:19 — Saturation of some tasks and future frontier tasks00:11:26 — On benchmarks, public vs internal00:12:53 — Example long-context benchmarks & limitations00:15:01 — Long-context goals: attending to trillions of tokens00:16:26 — Realistic use cases beyond pure language00:18:04 — Multimodal reasoning and non-text modalities00:19:05 — Importance of vision & motion modalities00:20:11 — Video understanding example (extracting structured info)00:20:47 — Search ranking analogy for LLM retrieval00:23:08 — LLM representations vs keyword search00:24:06 — Early Google search evolution & in-memory index00:26:47 — Design principles for scalable systems00:28:55 — Real-time index updates & recrawl strategies00:30:06 — Classic “Latency numbers every programmer should know”00:32:09 — Cost of memory vs compute and energy emphasis00:34:33 — TPUs & hardware trade-offs for serving models00:35:57 — TPU design decisions & co-design with ML00:38:06 — Adapting model architecture to hardware00:39:50 — Alternatives: energy-based models, speculative decoding00:42:21 — Open research directions: complex workflows, RL00:44:56 — Non-verifiable RL domains & model evaluation00:46:13 — Transition away from symbolic systems toward unified LLMs00:47:59 — Unified models vs specialized ones00:50:38 — Knowledge vs reasoning & retrieval + reasoning00:52:24 — Vertical model specialization & modules00:55:21 — Token count considerations for vertical domains00:56:09 — Low resource languages & contextual learning00:59:22 — Origins: Dean's early neural network work01:10:07 — AI for coding & human–model interaction styles01:15:52 — Importance of crisp specification for coding agents01:19:23 — Prediction: personalized models & state retrieval01:22:36 — Token-per-second targets (10k+) and reasoning throughput01:23:20 — Episode conclusion and thanksTranscriptAlessio Fanelli [00:00:04]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by Swyx, editor of Latent Space. Shawn Wang [00:00:11]: Hello, hello. We're here in the studio with Jeff Dean, chief AI scientist at Google. Welcome. Thanks for having me. It's a bit surreal to have you in the studio. I've watched so many of your talks, and obviously your career has been super legendary. So, I mean, congrats. I think the first thing must be said, congrats on owning the Pareto Frontier.Jeff Dean [00:00:30]: Thank you, thank you. Pareto Frontiers are good. It's good to be out there.Shawn Wang [00:00:34]: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a combination of both. You have to own the Pareto Frontier. You have to have like frontier capability, but also efficiency, and then offer that range of models that people like to use. And, you know, some part of this was started because of your hardware work. Some part of that is your model work, and I'm sure there's lots of secret sauce that you guys have worked on cumulatively. But, like, it's really impressive to see it all come together in, like, this slittily advanced.Jeff Dean [00:01:04]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, as you say, it's not just one thing. It's like a whole bunch of things up and down the stack. And, you know, all of those really combine to help make UNOS able to make highly capable large models, as well as, you know, software techniques to get those large model capabilities into much smaller, lighter weight models that are, you know, much more cost effective and lower latency, but still, you know, quite capable for their size. Yeah.Alessio Fanelli [00:01:31]: How much pressure do you have on, like, having the lower bound of the Pareto Frontier, too? I think, like, the new labs are always trying to push the top performance frontier because they need to raise more money and all of that. And you guys have billions of users. And I think initially when you worked on the CPU, you were thinking about, you know, if everybody that used Google, we use the voice model for, like, three minutes a day, they were like, you need to double your CPU number. Like, what's that discussion today at Google? Like, how do you prioritize frontier versus, like, we have to do this? How do we actually need to deploy it if we build it?Jeff Dean [00:02:03]: Yeah, I mean, I think we always want to have models that are at the frontier or pushing the frontier because I think that's where you see what capabilities now exist that didn't exist at the sort of slightly less capable last year's version or last six months ago version. At the same time, you know, we know those are going to be really useful for a bunch of use cases, but they're going to be a bit slower and a bit more expensive than people might like for a bunch of other broader models. So I think what we want to do is always have kind of a highly capable sort of affordable model that enables a whole bunch of, you know, lower latency use cases. People can use them for agentic coding much more readily and then have the high-end, you know, frontier model that is really useful for, you know, deep reasoning, you know, solving really complicated math problems, those kinds of things. And it's not that. One or the other is useful. They're both useful. So I think we'd like to do both. And also, you know, through distillation, which is a key technique for making the smaller models more capable, you know, you have to have the frontier model in order to then distill it into your smaller model. So it's not like an either or choice. You sort of need that in order to actually get a highly capable, more modest size model. Yeah.Alessio Fanelli [00:03:24]: I mean, you and Jeffrey came up with the solution in 2014.Jeff Dean [00:03:28]: Don't forget, L'Oreal Vinyls as well. Yeah, yeah.Alessio Fanelli [00:03:30]: A long time ago. But like, I'm curious how you think about the cycle of these ideas, even like, you know, sparse models and, you know, how do you reevaluate them? How do you think about in the next generation of model, what is worth revisiting? Like, yeah, they're just kind of like, you know, you worked on so many ideas that end up being influential, but like in the moment, they might not feel that way necessarily. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:03:52]: I mean, I think distillation was originally motivated because we were seeing that we had a very large image data set at the time, you know, 300 million images that we could train on. And we were seeing that if you create specialists for different subsets of those image categories, you know, this one's going to be really good at sort of mammals, and this one's going to be really good at sort of indoor room scenes or whatever, and you can cluster those categories and train on an enriched stream of data after you do pre-training on a much broader set of images. You get much better performance. If you then treat that whole set of maybe 50 models you've trained as a large ensemble, but that's not a very practical thing to serve, right? So distillation really came about from the idea of, okay, what if we want to actually serve that and train all these independent sort of expert models and then squish it into something that actually fits in a form factor that you can actually serve? And that's, you know, not that different from what we're doing today. You know, often today we're instead of having an ensemble of 50 models. We're having a much larger scale model that we then distill into a much smaller scale model.Shawn Wang [00:05:09]: Yeah. A part of me also wonders if distillation also has a story with the RL revolution. So let me maybe try to articulate what I mean by that, which is you can, RL basically spikes models in a certain part of the distribution. And then you have to sort of, well, you can spike models, but usually sometimes... It might be lossy in other areas and it's kind of like an uneven technique, but you can probably distill it back and you can, I think that the sort of general dream is to be able to advance capabilities without regressing on anything else. And I think like that, that whole capability merging without loss, I feel like it's like, you know, some part of that should be a distillation process, but I can't quite articulate it. I haven't seen much papers about it.Jeff Dean [00:06:01]: Yeah, I mean, I tend to think of one of the key advantages of distillation is that you can have a much smaller model and you can have a very large, you know, training data set and you can get utility out of making many passes over that data set because you're now getting the logits from the much larger model in order to sort of coax the right behavior out of the smaller model that you wouldn't otherwise get with just the hard labels. And so, you know, I think that's what we've observed. Is you can get, you know, very close to your largest model performance with distillation approaches. And that seems to be, you know, a nice sweet spot for a lot of people because it enables us to kind of, for multiple Gemini generations now, we've been able to make the sort of flash version of the next generation as good or even substantially better than the previous generations pro. And I think we're going to keep trying to do that because that seems like a good trend to follow.Shawn Wang [00:07:02]: So, Dara asked, so it was the original map was Flash Pro and Ultra. Are you just sitting on Ultra and distilling from that? Is that like the mother load?Jeff Dean [00:07:12]: I mean, we have a lot of different kinds of models. Some are internal ones that are not necessarily meant to be released or served. Some are, you know, our pro scale model and we can distill from that as well into our Flash scale model. So I think, you know, it's an important set of capabilities to have and also inference time scaling. It can also be a useful thing to improve the capabilities of the model.Shawn Wang [00:07:35]: And yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah. And obviously, I think the economy of Flash is what led to the total dominance. I think the latest number is like 50 trillion tokens. I don't know. I mean, obviously, it's changing every day.Jeff Dean [00:07:46]: Yeah, yeah. But, you know, by market share, hopefully up.Shawn Wang [00:07:50]: No, I mean, there's no I mean, there's just the economics wise, like because Flash is so economical, like you can use it for everything. Like it's in Gmail now. It's in YouTube. Like it's yeah. It's in everything.Jeff Dean [00:08:02]: We're using it more in our search products of various AI mode reviews.Shawn Wang [00:08:05]: Oh, my God. Flash past the AI mode. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's yeah, I didn't even think about that.Jeff Dean [00:08:10]: I mean, I think one of the things that is quite nice about the Flash model is not only is it more affordable, it's also a lower latency. And I think latency is actually a pretty important characteristic for these models because we're going to want models to do much more complicated things that are going to involve, you know, generating many more tokens from when you ask the model to do so. So, you know, if you're going to ask the model to do something until it actually finishes what you ask it to do, because you're going to ask now, not just write me a for loop, but like write me a whole software package to do X or Y or Z. And so having low latency systems that can do that seems really important. And Flash is one direction, one way of doing that. You know, obviously our hardware platforms enable a bunch of interesting aspects of our, you know, serving stack as well, like TPUs, the interconnect between. Chips on the TPUs is actually quite, quite high performance and quite amenable to, for example, long context kind of attention operations, you know, having sparse models with lots of experts. These kinds of things really, really matter a lot in terms of how do you make them servable at scale.Alessio Fanelli [00:09:19]: Yeah. Does it feel like there's some breaking point for like the proto Flash distillation, kind of like one generation delayed? I almost think about almost like the capability as a. In certain tasks, like the pro model today is a saturated, some sort of task. So next generation, that same task will be saturated at the Flash price point. And I think for most of the things that people use models for at some point, the Flash model in two generation will be able to do basically everything. And how do you make it economical to like keep pushing the pro frontier when a lot of the population will be okay with the Flash model? I'm curious how you think about that.Jeff Dean [00:09:59]: I mean, I think that's true. If your distribution of what people are asking people, the models to do is stationary, right? But I think what often happens is as the models become more capable, people ask them to do more, right? So, I mean, I think this happens in my own usage. Like I used to try our models a year ago for some sort of coding task, and it was okay at some simpler things, but wouldn't do work very well for more complicated things. And since then, we've improved dramatically on the more complicated coding tasks. And now I'll ask it to do much more complicated things. And I think that's true, not just of coding, but of, you know, now, you know, can you analyze all the, you know, renewable energy deployments in the world and give me a report on solar panel deployment or whatever. That's a very complicated, you know, more complicated task than people would have asked a year ago. And so you are going to want more capable models to push the frontier in the absence of what people ask the models to do. And that also then gives us. Insight into, okay, where does the, where do things break down? How can we improve the model in these, these particular areas, uh, in order to sort of, um, make the next generation even better.Alessio Fanelli [00:11:11]: Yeah. Are there any benchmarks or like test sets they use internally? Because it's almost like the same benchmarks get reported every time. And it's like, all right, it's like 99 instead of 97. Like, how do you have to keep pushing the team internally to it? Or like, this is what we're building towards. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:11:26]: I mean, I think. Benchmarks, particularly external ones that are publicly available. Have their utility, but they often kind of have a lifespan of utility where they're introduced and maybe they're quite hard for current models. You know, I, I like to think of the best kinds of benchmarks are ones where the initial scores are like 10 to 20 or 30%, maybe, but not higher. And then you can sort of work on improving that capability for, uh, whatever it is, the benchmark is trying to assess and get it up to like 80, 90%, whatever. I, I think once it hits kind of 95% or something, you get very diminishing returns from really focusing on that benchmark, cuz it's sort of, it's either the case that you've now achieved that capability, or there's also the issue of leakage in public data or very related kind of data being, being in your training data. Um, so we have a bunch of held out internal benchmarks that we really look at where we know that wasn't represented in the training data at all. There are capabilities that we want the model to have. Um, yeah. Yeah. Um, that it doesn't have now, and then we can work on, you know, assessing, you know, how do we make the model better at these kinds of things? Is it, we need different kind of data to train on that's more specialized for this particular kind of task. Do we need, um, you know, a bunch of, uh, you know, architectural improvements or some sort of, uh, model capability improvements, you know, what would help make that better?Shawn Wang [00:12:53]: Is there, is there such an example that you, uh, a benchmark inspired in architectural improvement? Like, uh, I'm just kind of. Jumping on that because you just.Jeff Dean [00:13:02]: Uh, I mean, I think some of the long context capability of the, of the Gemini models that came, I guess, first in 1.5 really were about looking at, okay, we want to have, um, you know,Shawn Wang [00:13:15]: immediately everyone jumped to like completely green charts of like, everyone had, I was like, how did everyone crack this at the same time? Right. Yeah. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:13:23]: I mean, I think, um, and once you're set, I mean, as you say that needed single needle and a half. Hey, stack benchmark is really saturated for at least context links up to 1, 2 and K or something. Don't actually have, you know, much larger than 1, 2 and 8 K these days or two or something. We're trying to push the frontier of 1 million or 2 million context, which is good because I think there are a lot of use cases where. Yeah. You know, putting a thousand pages of text or putting, you know, multiple hour long videos and the context and then actually being able to make use of that as useful. Try to, to explore the über graduation are fairly large. But the single needle in a haystack benchmark is sort of saturated. So you really want more complicated, sort of multi-needle or more realistic, take all this content and produce this kind of answer from a long context that sort of better assesses what it is people really want to do with long context. Which is not just, you know, can you tell me the product number for this particular thing?Shawn Wang [00:14:31]: Yeah, it's retrieval. It's retrieval within machine learning. It's interesting because I think the more meta level I'm trying to operate at here is you have a benchmark. You're like, okay, I see the architectural thing I need to do in order to go fix that. But should you do it? Because sometimes that's an inductive bias, basically. It's what Jason Wei, who used to work at Google, would say. Exactly the kind of thing. Yeah, you're going to win. Short term. Longer term, I don't know if that's going to scale. You might have to undo that.Jeff Dean [00:15:01]: I mean, I like to sort of not focus on exactly what solution we're going to derive, but what capability would you want? And I think we're very convinced that, you know, long context is useful, but it's way too short today. Right? Like, I think what you would really want is, can I attend to the internet while I answer my question? Right? But that's not going to happen. I think that's going to be solved by purely scaling the existing solutions, which are quadratic. So a million tokens kind of pushes what you can do. You're not going to do that to a trillion tokens, let alone, you know, a billion tokens, let alone a trillion. But I think if you could give the illusion that you can attend to trillions of tokens, that would be amazing. You'd find all kinds of uses for that. You would have attend to the internet. You could attend to the pixels of YouTube and the sort of deeper representations that we can find. You could attend to the form for a single video, but across many videos, you know, on a personal Gemini level, you could attend to all of your personal state with your permission. So like your emails, your photos, your docs, your plane tickets you have. I think that would be really, really useful. And the question is, how do you get algorithmic improvements and system level improvements that get you to something where you actually can attend to trillions of tokens? Right. In a meaningful way. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:16:26]: But by the way, I think I did some math and it's like, if you spoke all day, every day for eight hours a day, you only generate a maximum of like a hundred K tokens, which like very comfortably fits.Jeff Dean [00:16:38]: Right. But if you then say, okay, I want to be able to understand everything people are putting on videos.Shawn Wang [00:16:46]: Well, also, I think that the classic example is you start going beyond language into like proteins and whatever else is extremely information dense. Yeah. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:16:55]: I mean, I think one of the things about Gemini's multimodal aspects is we've always wanted it to be multimodal from the start. And so, you know, that sometimes to people means text and images and video sort of human-like and audio, audio, human-like modalities. But I think it's also really useful to have Gemini know about non-human modalities. Yeah. Like LIDAR sensor data from. Yes. Say, Waymo vehicles or. Like robots or, you know, various kinds of health modalities, x-rays and MRIs and imaging and genomics information. And I think there's probably hundreds of modalities of data where you'd like the model to be able to at least be exposed to the fact that this is an interesting modality and has certain meaning in the world. Where even if you haven't trained on all the LIDAR data or MRI data, you could have, because maybe that's not, you know, it doesn't make sense in terms of trade-offs of. You know, what you include in your main pre-training data mix, at least including a little bit of it is actually quite useful. Yeah. Because it sort of tempts the model that this is a thing.Shawn Wang [00:18:04]: Yeah. Do you believe, I mean, since we're on this topic and something I just get to ask you all the questions I always wanted to ask, which is fantastic. Like, are there some king modalities, like modalities that supersede all the other modalities? So a simple example was Vision can, on a pixel level, encode text. And DeepSeq had this DeepSeq CR paper that did that. Vision. And Vision has also been shown to maybe incorporate audio because you can do audio spectrograms and that's, that's also like a Vision capable thing. Like, so, so maybe Vision is just the king modality and like. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:18:36]: I mean, Vision and Motion are quite important things, right? Motion. Well, like video as opposed to static images, because I mean, there's a reason evolution has evolved eyes like 23 independent ways, because it's such a useful capability for sensing the world around you, which is really what we want these models to be. So I think the only thing that we can be able to do is interpret the things we're seeing or the things we're paying attention to and then help us in using that information to do things. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:19:05]: I think motion, you know, I still want to shout out, I think Gemini, still the only native video understanding model that's out there. So I use it for YouTube all the time. Nice.Jeff Dean [00:19:15]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's actually, I think people kind of are not necessarily aware of what the Gemini models can actually do. Yeah. Like I have an example I've used in one of my talks. It had like, it was like a YouTube highlight video of 18 memorable sports moments across the last 20 years or something. So it has like Michael Jordan hitting some jump shot at the end of the finals and, you know, some soccer goals and things like that. And you can literally just give it the video and say, can you please make me a table of what all these different events are? What when the date is when they happened? And a short description. And so you get like now an 18 row table of that information extracted from the video, which is, you know, not something most people think of as like a turn video into sequel like table.Alessio Fanelli [00:20:11]: Has there been any discussion inside of Google of like, you mentioned tending to the whole internet, right? Google, it's almost built because a human cannot tend to the whole internet and you need some sort of ranking to find what you need. Yep. That ranking is like much different for an LLM because you can expect a person to look at maybe the first five, six links in a Google search versus for an LLM. Should you expect to have 20 links that are highly relevant? Like how do you internally figure out, you know, how do we build the AI mode that is like maybe like much broader search and span versus like the more human one? Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:20:47]: I mean, I think even pre-language model based work, you know, our ranking systems would be built to start. I mean, I think even pre-language model based work, you know, our ranking systems would be built to start. With a giant number of web pages in our index, many of them are not relevant. So you identify a subset of them that are relevant with very lightweight kinds of methods. You know, you're down to like 30,000 documents or something. And then you gradually refine that to apply more and more sophisticated algorithms and more and more sophisticated sort of signals of various kinds in order to get down to ultimately what you show, which is, you know, the final 10 results or, you know, 10 results plus. Other kinds of information. And I think an LLM based system is not going to be that dissimilar, right? You're going to attend to trillions of tokens, but you're going to want to identify, you know, what are the 30,000 ish documents that are with the, you know, maybe 30 million interesting tokens. And then how do you go from that into what are the 117 documents I really should be paying attention to in order to carry out the tasks that the user has asked? And I think, you know, you can imagine systems where you have, you know, a lot of highly parallel processing to identify those initial 30,000 candidates, maybe with very lightweight kinds of models. Then you have some system that sort of helps you narrow down from 30,000 to the 117 with maybe a little bit more sophisticated model or set of models. And then maybe the final model is the thing that looks. So the 117 things that might be your most capable model. So I think it has to, it's going to be some system like that, that is really enables you to give the illusion of attending to trillions of tokens. Sort of the way Google search gives you, you know, not the illusion, but you are searching the internet, but you're finding, you know, a very small subset of things that are, that are relevant.Shawn Wang [00:22:47]: Yeah. I often tell a lot of people that are not steeped in like Google search history that, well, you know, like Bert was. Like he was like basically immediately inside of Google search and that improves results a lot, right? Like I don't, I don't have any numbers off the top of my head, but like, I'm sure you guys, that's obviously the most important numbers to Google. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:23:08]: I mean, I think going to an LLM based representation of text and words and so on enables you to get out of the explicit hard notion of, of particular words having to be on the page, but really getting at the notion of this topic of this page or this page. Paragraph is highly relevant to this query. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:23:28]: I don't think people understand how much LLMs have taken over all these very high traffic system, very high traffic. Yeah. Like it's Google, it's YouTube. YouTube has this like semantics ID thing where it's just like every token or every item in the vocab is a YouTube video or something that predicts the video using a code book, which is absurd to me for YouTube size.Jeff Dean [00:23:50]: And then most recently GROK also for, for XAI, which is like, yeah. I mean, I'll call out even before LLMs were used extensively in search, we put a lot of emphasis on softening the notion of what the user actually entered into the query.Shawn Wang [00:24:06]: So do you have like a history of like, what's the progression? Oh yeah.Jeff Dean [00:24:09]: I mean, I actually gave a talk in, uh, I guess, uh, web search and data mining conference in 2009, uh, where we never actually published any papers about the origins of Google search, uh, sort of, but we went through sort of four or five or six. generations, four or five or six generations of, uh, redesigning of the search and retrieval system, uh, from about 1999 through 2004 or five. And that talk is really about that evolution. And one of the things that really happened in 2001 was we were sort of working to scale the system in multiple dimensions. So one is we wanted to make our index bigger, so we could retrieve from a larger index, which always helps your quality in general. Uh, because if you don't have the page in your index, you're going to not do well. Um, and then we also needed to scale our capacity because we were, our traffic was growing quite extensively. Um, and so we had, you know, a sharded system where you have more and more shards as the index grows, you have like 30 shards. And then if you want to double the index size, you make 60 shards so that you can bound the latency by which you respond for any particular user query. Um, and then as traffic grows, you add, you add more and more replicas of each of those. And so we eventually did the math that realized that in a data center where we had say 60 shards and, um, you know, 20 copies of each shard, we now had 1200 machines, uh, with disks. And we did the math and we're like, Hey, one copy of that index would actually fit in memory across 1200 machines. So in 2001, we introduced, uh, we put our entire index in memory and what that enabled from a quality perspective was amazing. Um, and so we had more and more replicas of each of those. Before you had to be really careful about, you know, how many different terms you looked at for a query, because every one of them would involve a disk seek on every one of the 60 shards. And so you, as you make your index bigger, that becomes even more inefficient. But once you have the whole index in memory, it's totally fine to have 50 terms you throw into the query from the user's original three or four word query, because now you can add synonyms like restaurant and restaurants and cafe and, uh, you know, things like that. Uh, bistro and all these things. And you can suddenly start, uh, sort of really, uh, getting at the meaning of the word as opposed to the exact semantic form the user typed in. And that was, you know, 2001, very much pre LLM, but really it was about softening the, the strict definition of what the user typed in order to get at the meaning.Alessio Fanelli [00:26:47]: What are like principles that you use to like design the systems, especially when you have, I mean, in 2001, the internet is like. Doubling, tripling every year in size is not like, uh, you know, and I think today you kind of see that with LLMs too, where like every year the jumps in size and like capabilities are just so big. Are there just any, you know, principles that you use to like, think about this? Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:27:08]: I mean, I think, uh, you know, first, whenever you're designing a system, you want to understand what are the sort of design parameters that are going to be most important in designing that, you know? So, you know, how many queries per second do you need to handle? How big is the internet? How big is the index you need to handle? How much data do you need to keep for every document in the index? How are you going to look at it when you retrieve things? Um, what happens if traffic were to double or triple, you know, will that system work well? And I think a good design principle is you're going to want to design a system so that the most important characteristics could scale by like factors of five or 10, but probably not beyond that because often what happens is if you design a system for X. And something suddenly becomes a hundred X, that would enable a very different point in the design space that would not make sense at X. But all of a sudden at a hundred X makes total sense. So like going from a disk space index to a in memory index makes a lot of sense once you have enough traffic, because now you have enough replicas of the sort of state on disk that those machines now actually can hold, uh, you know, a full copy of the, uh, index and memory. Yeah. And that all of a sudden enabled. A completely different design that wouldn't have been practical before. Yeah. Um, so I'm, I'm a big fan of thinking through designs in your head, just kind of playing with the design space a little before you actually do a lot of writing of code. But, you know, as you said, in the early days of Google, we were growing the index, uh, quite extensively. We were growing the update rate of the index. So the update rate actually is the parameter that changed the most. Surprising. So it used to be once a month.Shawn Wang [00:28:55]: Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:28:56]: And then we went to a system that could update any particular page in like sub one minute. Okay.Shawn Wang [00:29:02]: Yeah. Because this is a competitive advantage, right?Jeff Dean [00:29:04]: Because all of a sudden news related queries, you know, if you're, if you've got last month's news index, it's not actually that useful for.Shawn Wang [00:29:11]: News is a special beast. Was there any, like you could have split it onto a separate system.Jeff Dean [00:29:15]: Well, we did. We launched a Google news product, but you also want news related queries that people type into the main index to also be sort of updated.Shawn Wang [00:29:23]: So, yeah, it's interesting. And then you have to like classify whether the page is, you have to decide which pages should be updated and what frequency. Oh yeah.Jeff Dean [00:29:30]: There's a whole like, uh, system behind the scenes that's trying to decide update rates and importance of the pages. So even if the update rate seems low, you might still want to recrawl important pages quite often because, uh, the likelihood they change might be low, but the value of having updated is high.Shawn Wang [00:29:50]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, well, you know, yeah. This, uh, you know, mention of latency and, and saving things to this reminds me of one of your classics, which I have to bring up, which is latency numbers. Every programmer should know, uh, was there a, was it just a, just a general story behind that? Did you like just write it down?Jeff Dean [00:30:06]: I mean, this has like sort of eight or 10 different kinds of metrics that are like, how long does a cache mistake? How long does branch mispredict take? How long does a reference domain memory take? How long does it take to send, you know, a packet from the U S to the Netherlands or something? Um,Shawn Wang [00:30:21]: why Netherlands, by the way, or is it, is that because of Chrome?Jeff Dean [00:30:25]: Uh, we had a data center in the Netherlands, um, so, I mean, I think this gets to the point of being able to do the back of the envelope calculations. So these are sort of the raw ingredients of those, and you can use them to say, okay, well, if I need to design a system to do image search and thumb nailing or something of the result page, you know, how, what I do that I could pre-compute the image thumbnails. I could like. Try to thumbnail them on the fly from the larger images. What would that do? How much dis bandwidth than I need? How many des seeks would I do? Um, and you can sort of actually do thought experiments in, you know, 30 seconds or a minute with the sort of, uh, basic, uh, basic numbers at your fingertips. Uh, and then as you sort of build software using higher level libraries, you kind of want to develop the same intuitions for how long does it take to, you know, look up something in this particular kind of.Shawn Wang [00:31:21]: I'll see you next time.Shawn Wang [00:31:51]: Which is a simple byte conversion. That's nothing interesting. I wonder if you have any, if you were to update your...Jeff Dean [00:31:58]: I mean, I think it's really good to think about calculations you're doing in a model, either for training or inference.Jeff Dean [00:32:09]: Often a good way to view that is how much state will you need to bring in from memory, either like on-chip SRAM or HBM from the accelerator. Attached memory or DRAM or over the network. And then how expensive is that data motion relative to the cost of, say, an actual multiply in the matrix multiply unit? And that cost is actually really, really low, right? Because it's order, depending on your precision, I think it's like sub one picodule.Shawn Wang [00:32:50]: Oh, okay. You measure it by energy. Yeah. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:32:52]: Yeah. I mean, it's all going to be about energy and how do you make the most energy efficient system. And then moving data from the SRAM on the other side of the chip, not even off the off chip, but on the other side of the same chip can be, you know, a thousand picodules. Oh, yeah. And so all of a sudden, this is why your accelerators require batching. Because if you move, like, say, the parameter of a model from SRAM on the, on the chip into the multiplier unit, that's going to cost you a thousand picodules. So you better make use of that, that thing that you moved many, many times with. So that's where the batch dimension comes in. Because all of a sudden, you know, if you have a batch of 256 or something, that's not so bad. But if you have a batch of one, that's really not good.Shawn Wang [00:33:40]: Yeah. Yeah. Right.Jeff Dean [00:33:41]: Because then you paid a thousand picodules in order to do your one picodule multiply.Shawn Wang [00:33:46]: I have never heard an energy-based analysis of batching.Jeff Dean [00:33:50]: Yeah. I mean, that's why people batch. Yeah. Ideally, you'd like to use batch size one because the latency would be great.Shawn Wang [00:33:56]: The best latency.Jeff Dean [00:33:56]: But the energy cost and the compute cost inefficiency that you get is quite large. So, yeah.Shawn Wang [00:34:04]: Is there a similar trick like, like, like you did with, you know, putting everything in memory? Like, you know, I think obviously NVIDIA has caused a lot of waves with betting very hard on SRAM with Grok. I wonder if, like, that's something that you already saw with, with the TPUs, right? Like that, that you had to. Uh, to serve at your scale, uh, you probably sort of saw that coming. Like what, what, what hardware, uh, innovations or insights were formed because of what you're seeing there?Jeff Dean [00:34:33]: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, TPUs have this nice, uh, sort of regular structure of 2D or 3D meshes with a bunch of chips connected. Yeah. And each one of those has HBM attached. Um, I think for serving some kinds of models, uh, you know, you, you pay a lot higher cost. Uh, and time latency, um, bringing things in from HBM than you do bringing them in from, uh, SRAM on the chip. So if you have a small enough model, you can actually do model parallelism, spread it out over lots of chips and you actually get quite good throughput improvements and latency improvements from doing that. And so you're now sort of striping your smallish scale model over say 16 or 64 chips. Uh, but as if you do that and it all fits in. In SRAM, uh, that can be a big win. So yeah, that's not a surprise, but it is a good technique.Alessio Fanelli [00:35:27]: Yeah. What about the TPU design? Like how much do you decide where the improvements have to go? So like, this is like a good example of like, is there a way to bring the thousand picojoules down to 50? Like, is it worth designing a new chip to do that? The extreme is like when people say, oh, you should burn the model on the ASIC and that's kind of like the most extreme thing. How much of it? Is it worth doing an hardware when things change so quickly? Like what was the internal discussion? Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:35:57]: I mean, we, we have a lot of interaction between say the TPU chip design architecture team and the sort of higher level modeling, uh, experts, because you really want to take advantage of being able to co-design what should future TPUs look like based on where we think the sort of ML research puck is going, uh, in some sense, because, uh, you know, as a hardware designer for ML and in particular, you're trying to design a chip starting today and that design might take two years before it even lands in a data center. And then it has to sort of be a reasonable lifetime of the chip to take you three, four or five years. So you're trying to predict two to six years out where, what ML computations will people want to run two to six years out in a very fast changing field. And so having people with interest. Interesting ML research ideas of things we think will start to work in that timeframe or will be more important in that timeframe, uh, really enables us to then get, you know, interesting hardware features put into, you know, TPU N plus two, where TPU N is what we have today.Shawn Wang [00:37:10]: Oh, the cycle time is plus two.Jeff Dean [00:37:12]: Roughly. Wow. Because, uh, I mean, sometimes you can squeeze some changes into N plus one, but, you know, bigger changes are going to require the chip. Yeah. Design be earlier in its lifetime design process. Um, so whenever we can do that, it's generally good. And sometimes you can put in speculative features that maybe won't cost you much chip area, but if it works out, it would make something, you know, 10 times as fast. And if it doesn't work out, well, you burned a little bit of tiny amount of your chip area on that thing, but it's not that big a deal. Uh, sometimes it's a very big change and we want to be pretty sure this is going to work out. So we'll do like lots of carefulness. Uh, ML experimentation to show us, uh, this is actually the, the way we want to go. Yeah.Alessio Fanelli [00:37:58]: Is there a reverse of like, we already committed to this chip design so we can not take the model architecture that way because it doesn't quite fit?Jeff Dean [00:38:06]: Yeah. I mean, you, you definitely have things where you're going to adapt what the model architecture looks like so that they're efficient on the chips that you're going to have for both training and inference of that, of that, uh, generation of model. So I think it kind of goes both ways. Um, you know, sometimes you can take advantage of, you know, lower precision things that are coming in a future generation. So you can, might train it at that lower precision, even if the current generation doesn't quite do that. Mm.Shawn Wang [00:38:40]: Yeah. How low can we go in precision?Jeff Dean [00:38:43]: Because people are saying like ternary is like, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of very low precision because I think that gets, that saves you a tremendous amount of time. Right. Because it's picojoules per bit that you're transferring and reducing the number of bits is a really good way to, to reduce that. Um, you know, I think people have gotten a lot of luck, uh, mileage out of having very low bit precision things, but then having scaling factors that apply to a whole bunch of, uh, those, those weights. Scaling. How does it, how does it, okay.Shawn Wang [00:39:15]: Interesting. You, so low, low precision, but scaled up weights. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Never considered that. Yeah. Interesting. Uh, w w while we're on this topic, you know, I think there's a lot of, um, uh, this, the concept of precision at all is weird when we're sampling, you know, uh, we just, at the end of this, we're going to have all these like chips that I'll do like very good math. And then we're just going to throw a random number generator at the start. So, I mean, there's a movement towards, uh, energy based, uh, models and processors. I'm just curious if you've, obviously you've thought about it, but like, what's your commentary?Jeff Dean [00:39:50]: Yeah. I mean, I think. There's a bunch of interesting trends though. Energy based models is one, you know, diffusion based models, which don't sort of sequentially decode tokens is another, um, you know, speculative decoding is a way that you can get sort of an equivalent, very small.Shawn Wang [00:40:06]: Draft.Jeff Dean [00:40:07]: Batch factor, uh, for like you predict eight tokens out and that enables you to sort of increase the effective batch size of what you're doing by a factor of eight, even, and then you maybe accept five or six of those tokens. So you get. A five, a five X improvement in the amortization of moving weights, uh, into the multipliers to do the prediction for the, the tokens. So these are all really good techniques and I think it's really good to look at them from the lens of, uh, energy, real energy, not energy based models, um, and, and also latency and throughput, right? If you look at things from that lens, that sort of guides you to. Two solutions that are gonna be, uh, you know, better from, uh, you know, being able to serve larger models or, you know, equivalent size models more cheaply and with lower latency.Shawn Wang [00:41:03]: Yeah. Well, I think, I think I, um, it's appealing intellectually, uh, haven't seen it like really hit the mainstream, but, um, I do think that, uh, there's some poetry in the sense that, uh, you know, we don't have to do, uh, a lot of shenanigans if like we fundamentally. Design it into the hardware. Yeah, yeah.Jeff Dean [00:41:23]: I mean, I think there's still a, there's also sort of the more exotic things like analog based, uh, uh, computing substrates as opposed to digital ones. Uh, I'm, you know, I think those are super interesting cause they can be potentially low power. Uh, but I think you often end up wanting to interface that with digital systems and you end up losing a lot of the power advantages in the digital to analog and analog to digital conversions. You end up doing, uh, at the sort of boundaries. And periphery of that system. Um, I still think there's a tremendous distance we can go from where we are today in terms of energy efficiency with sort of, uh, much better and specialized hardware for the models we care about.Shawn Wang [00:42:05]: Yeah.Alessio Fanelli [00:42:06]: Um, any other interesting research ideas that you've seen, or like maybe things that you cannot pursue a Google that you would be interested in seeing researchers take a step at, I guess you have a lot of researchers. Yeah, I guess you have enough, but our, our research.Jeff Dean [00:42:21]: Our research portfolio is pretty broad. I would say, um, I mean, I think, uh, in terms of research directions, there's a whole bunch of, uh, you know, open problems and how do you make these models reliable and able to do much longer, kind of, uh, more complex tasks that have lots of subtasks. How do you orchestrate, you know, maybe one model that's using other models as tools in order to sort of build, uh, things that can accomplish, uh, you know, much more. Yeah. Significant pieces of work, uh, collectively, then you would ask a single model to do. Um, so that's super interesting. How do you get more verifiable, uh, you know, how do you get RL to work for non-verifiable domains? I think it's a pretty interesting open problem because I think that would broaden out the capabilities of the models, the improvements that you're seeing in both math and coding. Uh, if we could apply those to other less verifiable domains, because we've come up with RL techniques that actually enable us to do that. Uh, effectively, that would, that would really make the models improve quite a lot. I think.Alessio Fanelli [00:43:26]: I'm curious, like when we had Noam Brown on the podcast, he said, um, they already proved you can do it with deep research. Um, you kind of have it with AI mode in a way it's not verifiable. I'm curious if there's any thread that you think is interesting there. Like what is it? Both are like information retrieval of JSON. So I wonder if it's like the retrieval is like the verifiable part. That you can score or what are like, yeah, yeah. How, how would you model that, that problem?Jeff Dean [00:43:55]: Yeah. I mean, I think there are ways of having other models that can evaluate the results of what a first model did, maybe even retrieving. Can you have another model that says, is this things, are these things you retrieved relevant? Or can you rate these 2000 things you retrieved to assess which ones are the 50 most relevant or something? Um, I think those kinds of techniques are actually quite effective. Sometimes I can even be the same model, just prompted differently to be a, you know, a critic as opposed to a, uh, actual retrieval system. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:44:28]: Um, I do think like there, there is that, that weird cliff where like, it feels like we've done the easy stuff and then now it's, but it always feels like that every year. It's like, oh, like we know, we know, and the next part is super hard and nobody's figured it out. And, uh, exactly with this RLVR thing where like everyone's talking about, well, okay, how do we. the next stage of the non-verifiable stuff. And everyone's like, I don't know, you know, Ellen judge.Jeff Dean [00:44:56]: I mean, I feel like the nice thing about this field is there's lots and lots of smart people thinking about creative solutions to some of the problems that we all see. Uh, because I think everyone sort of sees that the models, you know, are great at some things and they fall down around the edges of those things and, and are not as capable as we'd like in those areas. And then coming up with good techniques and trying those. And seeing which ones actually make a difference is sort of what the whole research aspect of this field is, is pushing forward. And I think that's why it's super interesting. You know, if you think about two years ago, we were struggling with GSM, eight K problems, right? Like, you know, Fred has two rabbits. He gets three more rabbits. How many rabbits does he have? That's a pretty far cry from the kinds of mathematics that the models can, and now you're doing IMO and Erdos problems in pure language. Yeah. Yeah. Pure language. So that is a really, really amazing jump in capabilities in, you know, in a year and a half or something. And I think, um, for other areas, it'd be great if we could make that kind of leap. Uh, and you know, we don't exactly see how to do it for some, some areas, but we do see it for some other areas and we're going to work hard on making that better. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:46:13]: Yeah.Alessio Fanelli [00:46:14]: Like YouTube thumbnail generation. That would be very helpful. We need that. That would be AGI. We need that.Shawn Wang [00:46:20]: That would be. As far as content creators go.Jeff Dean [00:46:22]: I guess I'm not a YouTube creator, so I don't care that much about that problem, but I guess, uh, many people do.Shawn Wang [00:46:27]: It does. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't matter. People do judge books by their covers as it turns out. Um, uh, just to draw a bit on the IMO goal. Um, I'm still not over the fact that a year ago we had alpha proof and alpha geometry and all those things. And then this year we were like, screw that we'll just chuck it into Gemini. Yeah. What's your reflection? Like, I think this, this question about. Like the merger of like symbolic systems and like, and, and LMS, uh, was a very much core belief. And then somewhere along the line, people would just said, Nope, we'll just all do it in the LLM.Jeff Dean [00:47:02]: Yeah. I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense to me because, you know, humans manipulate symbols, but we probably don't have like a symbolic representation in our heads. Right. We have some distributed representation that is neural net, like in some way of lots of different neurons. And activation patterns firing when we see certain things and that enables us to reason and plan and, you know, do chains of thought and, you know, roll them back now that, that approach for solving the problem doesn't seem like it's going to work. I'm going to try this one. And, you know, in a lot of ways we're emulating what we intuitively think, uh, is happening inside real brains in neural net based models. So it never made sense to me to have like completely separate. Uh, discrete, uh, symbolic things, and then a completely different way of, of, uh, you know, thinking about those things.Shawn Wang [00:47:59]: Interesting. Yeah. Uh, I mean, it's maybe seems obvious to you, but it wasn't obvious to me a year ago. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:48:06]: I mean, I do think like that IMO with, you know, translating to lean and using lean and then the next year and also a specialized geometry model. And then this year switching to a single unified model. That is roughly the production model with a little bit more inference budget, uh, is actually, you know, quite good because it shows you that the capabilities of that general model have improved dramatically and, and now you don't need the specialized model. This is actually sort of very similar to the 2013 to 16 era of machine learning, right? Like it used to be, people would train separate models for lots of different, each different problem, right? I have, I want to recognize street signs and something. So I train a street sign. Recognition recognition model, or I want to, you know, decode speech recognition. I have a speech model, right? I think now the era of unified models that do everything is really upon us. And the question is how well do those models generalize to new things they've never been asked to do and they're getting better and better.Shawn Wang [00:49:10]: And you don't need domain experts. Like one of my, uh, so I interviewed ETA who was on, who was on that team. Uh, and he was like, yeah, I, I don't know how they work. I don't know where the IMO competition was held. I don't know the rules of it. I just trained the models, the training models. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of interesting that like people with these, this like universal skill set of just like machine learning, you just give them data and give them enough compute and they can kind of tackle any task, which is the bitter lesson, I guess. I don't know. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:49:39]: I mean, I think, uh, general models, uh, will win out over specialized ones in most cases.Shawn Wang [00:49:45]: Uh, so I want to push there a bit. I think there's one hole here, which is like, uh. There's this concept of like, uh, maybe capacity of a model, like abstractly a model can only contain the number of bits that it has. And, uh, and so it, you know, God knows like Gemini pro is like one to 10 trillion parameters. We don't know, but, uh, the Gemma models, for example, right? Like a lot of people want like the open source local models that are like that, that, that, and, and, uh, they have some knowledge, which is not necessary, right? Like they can't know everything like, like you have the. The luxury of you have the big model and big model should be able to capable of everything. But like when, when you're distilling and you're going down to the small models, you know, you're actually memorizing things that are not useful. Yeah. And so like, how do we, I guess, do we want to extract that? Can we, can we divorce knowledge from reasoning, you know?Jeff Dean [00:50:38]: Yeah. I mean, I think you do want the model to be most effective at reasoning if it can retrieve things, right? Because having the model devote precious parameter space. To remembering obscure facts that could be looked up is actually not the best use of that parameter space, right? Like you might prefer something that is more generally useful in more settings than this obscure fact that it has. Um, so I think that's always attention at the same time. You also don't want your model to be kind of completely detached from, you know, knowing stuff about the world, right? Like it's probably useful to know how long the golden gate be. Bridges just as a general sense of like how long are bridges, right? And, uh, it should have that kind of knowledge. It maybe doesn't need to know how long some teeny little bridge in some other more obscure part of the world is, but, uh, it does help it to have a fair bit of world knowledge and the bigger your model is, the more you can have. Uh, but I do think combining retrieval with sort of reasoning and making the model really good at doing multiple stages of retrieval. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:51:49]: And reasoning through the intermediate retrieval results is going to be a, a pretty effective way of making the model seem much more capable, because if you think about, say, a personal Gemini, yeah, right?Jeff Dean [00:52:01]: Like we're not going to train Gemini on my email. Probably we'd rather have a single model that, uh, we can then use and use being able to retrieve from my email as a tool and have the model reason about it and retrieve from my photos or whatever, uh, and then make use of that and have multiple. Um, you know, uh, stages of interaction. that makes sense.Alessio Fanelli [00:52:24]: Do you think the vertical models are like, uh, interesting pursuit? Like when people are like, oh, we're building the best healthcare LLM, we're building the best law LLM, are those kind of like short-term stopgaps or?Jeff Dean [00:52:37]: No, I mean, I think, I think vertical models are interesting. Like you want them to start from a pretty good base model, but then you can sort of, uh, sort of viewing them, view them as enriching the data. Data distribution for that particular vertical domain for healthcare, say, um, we're probably not going to train or for say robotics. We're probably not going to train Gemini on all possible robotics data. We, you could train it on because we want it to have a balanced set of capabilities. Um, so we'll expose it to some robotics data, but if you're trying to build a really, really good robotics model, you're going to want to start with that and then train it on more robotics data. And then maybe that would. It's multilingual translation capability, but improve its robotics capabilities. And we're always making these kind of, uh, you know, trade-offs in the data mix that we train the base Gemini models on. You know, we'd love to include data from 200 more languages and as much data as we have for those languages, but that's going to displace some other capabilities of the model. It won't be as good at, um, you know, Pearl programming, you know, it'll still be good at Python programming. Cause we'll include it. Enough. Of that, but there's other long tail computer languages or coding capabilities that it may suffer on or multi, uh, multimodal reasoning capabilities may suffer. Cause we didn't get to expose it to as much data there, but it's really good at multilingual things. So I, I think some combination of specialized models, maybe more modular models. So it'd be nice to have the capability to have those 200 languages, plus this awesome robotics model, plus this awesome healthcare, uh, module that all can be knitted together to work in concert and called upon in different circumstances. Right? Like if I have a health related thing, then it should enable using this health module in conjunction with the main base model to be even better at those kinds of things. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:54:36]: Installable knowledge. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:54:37]: Right.Shawn Wang [00:54:38]: Just download as a, as a package.Jeff Dean [00:54:39]: And some of that installable stuff can come from retrieval, but some of it probably should come from preloaded training on, you know, uh, a hundred billion tokens or a trillion tokens of health data. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:54:51]: And for listeners, I think, uh, I will highlight the Gemma three end paper where they, there was a little bit of that, I think. Yeah.Alessio Fanelli [00:54:56]: Yeah. I guess the question is like, how many billions of tokens do you need to outpace the frontier model improvements? You know, it's like, if I have to make this model better healthcare and the main. Gemini model is still improving. Do I need 50 billion tokens? Can I do it with a hundred, if I need a trillion healthcare tokens, it's like, they're probably not out there that you don't have, you know, I think that's really like the.Jeff Dean [00:55:21]: Well, I mean, I think healthcare is a particularly challenging domain, so there's a lot of healthcare data that, you know, we don't have access to appropriately, but there's a lot of, you know, uh, healthcare organizations that want to train models on their own data. That is not public healthcare data, uh, not public health. But public healthcare data. Um, so I think there are opportunities there to say, partner with a large healthcare organization and train models for their use that are going to be, you know, more bespoke, but probably, uh, might be better than a general model trained on say, public data. Yeah.Shawn Wang [00:55:58]: Yeah. I, I believe, uh, by the way, also this is like somewhat related to the language conversation. Uh, I think one of your, your favorite examples was you can put a low resource language in the context and it just learns. Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:56:09]: Oh, yeah, I think the example we used was Calamon, which is truly low resource because it's only spoken by, I think 120 people in the world and there's no written text.Shawn Wang [00:56:20]: So, yeah. So you can just do it that way. Just put it in the context. Yeah. Yeah. But I think your whole data set in the context, right.Jeff Dean [00:56:27]: If you, if you take a language like, uh, you know, Somali or something, there is a fair bit of Somali text in the world that, uh, or Ethiopian Amharic or something, um, you know, we probably. Yeah. Are not putting all the data from those languages into the Gemini based training. We put some of it, but if you put more of it, you'll improve the capabilities of those models.Shawn Wang [00:56:49]: Yeah.Jeff Dean [00:56:49]:

Allen and Joel are joined by Will Howell from Armour Edge in Edinburgh, Scotland. They discuss how Armour Edge’s semi-rigid polymer shields protect against leading edge erosion in harsh environments, the simplified installation process designed for rope access technicians, and the company’s expansion into North American manufacturing ahead of the 2026 blade season. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Allen Hall: Will welcome back to the program.  Will Howell: Thanks so much for having me guys. Nice to see you.  Allen Hall: So Edinborough is the home of Armor Edge.  Will Howell: Yes, indeed.  Allen Hall: Yeah. And we went to visit your facility a couple of days ago. Really impressive. There’s a lot going on there. Will Howell: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So the, we’ve been in the facility for, um, a couple of years now, and it’s really just all part of our expansion as we continue to. To, uh, grow as a business?  Allen Hall: Uh, well the thing that struck me first was efficiency. If you’re gonna be in wind, do you need to be efficient?  Will Howell: Yeah,  Allen Hall: exactly. You have  Will Howell: to  be,  Will Howell: look, we know that we are a, a relatively small team, but we’re, we are, we are very reactive and we are gonna be always responding to the, the requests. The, the market drive for us internationally now is where we are really focusing. And even though we’ve got our small base from there, we’re exporting internationally around the world. And so. Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m glad you guys came by and kind of saw what we’re up to.  Joel Saxum: If we could ask one thing, this is what we would ask. Turn up the heat. Turn down the wind. Turn off the rain.  Will Howell: Yeah, I’m [00:01:00] sorry about that. Yeah. Yeah, it’s, uh, there’s not much we can do about that at the moment.  Joel Saxum: Well, I’ll tell you what, if, if you’re talking leading Edge protection products, leading edge protection shield. Born from an area that’s rainy, that has heavy rain erosion, that understands,  Will Howell: we know, we know rain. We know rain. Yes. Look, we’ve been out in the North Sea now for over, over, over five years. These things are just being abused by Mother Nature out there and, you know, but we’ve, we are, we’re getting really good results consistently. Um, the products lasting really well against that, against that weather. And I think what’s interesting for us as well is it’s, it’s not just the Scottish rain and the ice and the snow. We’re, we’re getting good results out in the. The planes in the Midwest as well now. Yeah. And yeah, so yeah, very uh, universal products, we hope,  Joel Saxum: I mean, so this is one of the things we always talk about. When you talk wind turbine blades and you listen to the manufacturers, a lot of them sit in Denmark where the problem is mist in the air, it is rain, it is droplet size. It’s all the conversation you hear. But where we [00:02:00] see wind is dust, bugs, those kind of things. Like, it’s, it’s different stuff, right? So like I’m, I live in Texas. One of the things that’s beautiful about my home in Austin is when I look to the west in the, at, in the evening, it’s bright red skies all the time. Well, that means there’s dust in the air.  Will Howell: Yeah.  Joel Saxum: Right. And that’s, and when I look west, what am I looking at? 23,000 turbines out in West Texas. Right. So everything out there is getting beat up where we look at, um, inspections of turbines and we see turbines that are 1, 2, 3 years old that look like they’ve been in operation for 15 years. Will Howell: Yeah. Yeah.  Joel Saxum: There’s nothing left of them.  Will Howell: I know. And. You know, people use analogies like, oh, it looks like it’s been sand sandblasted. But it it has, it has, it is sandblasted, you know, we’ve, we’ve now conducted testing where we have literally taken kind of aerospace level testing and blasted sand at these shields, and they’re super resilient. But it has to be that universal products of resisting the water droplet that the mist, that side [00:03:00] of the, of the erosion problem, but also the particulate matter in the air. And there’ve been some of the. Places that we’ve installed. There was actually one site where they had a local, um, open cast mining nearby, and there was like marble particulate matter in the air. And these machines were getting trash in a couple couple of seasons. And again, we’ve been on there now for, I think now is our third year in that particular site. And again, really good results.  Joel Saxum: Well, I think, um, I mean, we did take some B roll when we were at your facility. And again, thanks for welcoming Sam. We love doing those. It’s, uh, but you showed us your installation methodology, and maybe we’ll show some of that with our producer Claire on mm-hmm. On this video. Uh, but the, the way you guys design your installation methodology to be simple and robust, easy for the technicians to make sure they can’t get it wrong in the field because they got enough other things to worry about. Will Howell: Uh, you know, I think, I think that’s been a big part of our, of our kind of design ethos since the, since the early days in the, in the r and d phase, it wasn’t only finding a robust material for the LEP Shields, a robust. [00:04:00]Adhesive to bond them on, but it’s the, it’s the kind of higher level. How do you actually get that onto a blade in the field by a rope or standing in a platform up in the, up in the winds And so, yeah, understanding what the technicians are having to go through in order to install this stuff. And that then feeds into your quality. ’cause you can have the best lab results in the world from your perfect installation sitting in a factory somewhere. But actually it’s the guys on ropes that are doing the, doing the hard work out there.  Joel Saxum: We see that all the time with our, like with our lightning protection products like. People, can you give us this lab test? Like we can, we’ll stack you up with lab tests. Mm-hmm. But what we really wanna show you is the test from the field.  Will Howell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Joel Saxum: The test that where it’s been sitting, soaking, getting hit by lightning. Mm-hmm. All of these things for years and years and years. Yeah. That’s the results we wanna show you. ’cause those are real.  Will Howell: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes  Allen Hall: the demo you gave us to install the shields and it’s basically a series of shields that go along the leading edge of the blade, sort of two parts of that one. Obviously you’re trying to recover the lost power, the a EP, that’s, that tends to be the big thing, [00:05:00] except in some locations, like Joel’s pointed out, it’s not that the leading edge is just kind of lightly beat up. It’s really beat up.  Will Howell: Yeah. Yeah.  Allen Hall: And you’re trying to prevent that from happening or to just to provide some protection, uh, if you’re just sort of category three, and I, I wanna walk through that for a minute because the demo you did was really interesting and I. It, it made sense once you watch the process happen. Mm-hmm. It’s really clear, but you’re able to take sort of cat three damage on the leading edge and not have to go back and do a lot of repair to it, which is where the vast majority of the funds are used to sort of get the blade to a point you can apply leading product. Oh yeah. Yeah. With Armor Edge, you don’t really need to do that. Will Howell: Yeah. And I think that that that really comes into the. Into the value proposition of the, of the whole, of the whole process. If the labor costs and the downtime of the machines, there’s so much value in that. And so if you can reduce the repair time or just remove it completely, because you can install [00:06:00] directly on top of existing erosion, you’ve really saved some significant cost out of the, out of the job. And that’s really only just by function of the design of the shields. We are a, a semi rigid polymer material, so we don’t conform to the existing erosion that’s on the surface. So. Yes. If you, if you have a cap four or five and you have some structural glass repair that needs to happen to maintain the integrity of the blades, you still need to complete that repair. You don’t need to go any further. So if you’ve only got a one, two, or three, you’re talking the fillers, the putties on, on the surface. You don’t need to, to replace those. Just apply our high build adhesive, get the shield on top, and you’re finished.  Allen Hall: And so you start at the tip with a, a tip. Shield and then you work your way, kind of Lego wise up up the leading edge of the blade. Yeah,  Will Howell: yeah, yeah.  Allen Hall: It’s really straightforward and, and the, the system you’re using, the adhesives you’re using, and the techniques are really adapted for the technician. What I watched you do, I’m like, oh, wow, this is really [00:07:00] slick because there’s been a lot of thought going into this. You have done this. Hundreds of times yourself before you’ve shipped it out to  Will Howell: the world. Yeah, exactly. And, and that was, that was a big part of the, part of the r and d process is to, again, as I said, it’s, it’s not just affecting these applications in a lab environment. It’s saying, how does this feel up on a rope? How does it feel strapped into your work, into your work position? You’re handling stuff with your gear off your belt, and it’s a, it’s a, it’s a very difficult position to be installing any bit of, any bit of kit on. And if we can. Make that as an intuitive and as simpler process as possible, that’s gonna lead to quality installations down down the line.  Joel Saxum: Yeah. One of the things I really liked when you were showing us the installation was the fact that you had your own tools that you developed for it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it wasn’t, we’re not talking $10,000 tools here, but, but it was something that was. Specific, your scraper that you use to spread things around. Mm-hmm. That makes sense for that application. That helps the technician in the field.  Will Howell: Yeah.  Joel Saxum: And that was from  Will Howell: direct market feedback. Absolutely. [00:08:00] And so you’re not only getting feedback from the technicians every season. And we are, we are, we are really careful to get these, to get that feedback, have these washup meetings, you know, maybe a bit of constructive criticism. Criticism in the early days and build that into your design revs. Yeah. But as you say, hands, tools or processes, it’s all just. Quality steps. As we, as we, as we kind of move on.  Joel Saxum: I do, I do wanna make sure for anybody listening or watching this on YouTube, that that, that they know that this is not the actual final problem. These are trade show things. It’s not a bunch of little shells like this. You’re about a meter long. They’re about meter  Will Howell: long. Yeah. Yeah. Full size. And again, even the, even the length is optimized for, um, kind of rope access. We feel a meter is about as long as you can handle as a, as a kind of single, single piece. The. Adhesive is kind of curing during the time that you’re installing the shields. So a meter is good, you just just move on. Depending on what the customer’s looking for, that can be 10, maybe even 15 shields on [00:09:00] longer. Yeah, installations. Look, blades are getting bigger. The leading edge, erosion problems getting worse. So yeah, up about 15, 15 shields is probably about a maximum length that we tend to do in the field. Joel Saxum: So let’s you, you, you mentioned customers we’re talking about what they wanna see. Let’s talk customers a little bit. What does the geographic footprint look like for you guys commercially going into next year? Where, where do the installs go and what’s your focus?  Will Howell: Well, at the moment we are, we are spread internationally. Uh, obviously we are based here in Edinburgh and starting our out in the, out in the North Sea. Um, but over the past few seasons, our, our biggest market has been, has been North America. Um, so we’ve, we’ve really started to expand out there and that. I, I think even this season, again, it’s gonna be our biggest, our biggest market. Um, Joel Saxum: wha wha  Will Howell: okay. So yeah, the North American market’s gonna continue to be our biggest, um, installation base. So, um, this year we are probably on another thousand blades [00:10:00] or so, last season, um, this, this year significantly more, more than that. It’s been interesting for us to see the. The continued growth of the market, but also the, a bit of additional interest early on in this season or even pre, pre-season Now, we’re only coming up to Christmas as we record this. Um, so the big step for us is gonna be not only expanding our European operation that you guys have seen, um, here from, from Edinburg to, to support the market here, but also looking at the manufacturing in America. So in North America, we’re gonna have. A couple of different manufacturing sites. We’re able to supply customers locally, which is not only gonna be reducing lead times, but also removing the the tariff burden, the import cost, any additional additional steps so we’re able to respond quicker to our customers over there. Joel Saxum: Thanks for bringing the jobs to the states too.  Will Howell: Oh, there we go. Love those.  Allen Hall: There’s a lot of variety of wind turbines in the US and around the world, and you’re actively scanning blaze [00:11:00] because the shields are specifically molded for each different blade type. How many models do you have already scanned and ready to go? Will Howell: So at the moment, um, I believe the database sits about 45 designs or so. Um, so obviously there, there are more designs than that out there, out there in the wild. But we’ve, we’ve made a big effort to try and focus on the really key, key OEMs, the really key blades types that are particularly, particularly prevalent. Um, so yeah, we’ve got a lot of designs. We’ve got a lot of existing tooling, so we can make part. Very quickly. Again, trying to be as reactive as we, as we can to, to our, to our customer base. But as you say, that database is continually growing. So we have maybe some of the, the less popular blade models that we haven’t yet got to some of the out, the kind of fringe shoulder, shoulder models. Um, we’ll be trying to scan a few more of those. This, this coming season, just to keep on building up that, that kind of knowledge, knowledge base.  Allen Hall: So what does that look like now that you have this large database and. Uh, the sort of the [00:12:00] molds to make the product. Mm-hmm. You can do things at scale, I assume now you’re, you’re talking about thousands of blades for this upcoming season. Will Howell: Yeah, I mean, it’s, uh, when we, when we approach our manufacturing partners, obviously what we’re talking about are individual tools and then making plastic polymer parts from those, from those tools. And so when we start talking about wind farms with just a few hundred machines, then that’s maybe a few thousand parts. But for these, for these manufacturers, that is small fry. So our ability to scale from the point of having those tools is very rapid. So our approach to the market and our ease of scaling very quickly has just, it’s, again, it is part of our, it’s part of our model. That’s why we can engage now in local manufacturer, like in North America to, to support the market there. And it’s not only North Americas, we start to grow in, [00:13:00] um, in Europe here and as well as some of other target target markets. We’ve got some, some smaller in stores in India and in Australia. These are also targets where potentially we could start Manu Manufacturing as well in the future to assist in our scale up. Allen Hall: What, what is your lead time right now That’s from, from, from the point of, I call up will say, well, I’ve got a GE 62 2. I probably have 500 of them. What does that lead time look like?  Will Howell: So, uh, 6 2 2 is a very good example. It’s a very prevalent blade. Um, we’ve, we’ve had a number of projects for this, so we’ve got tooling ready to, ready to go. You’re probably talking around four to six weeks to get that. That’s fast material out. Yeah. Um, if it was a new design, it would be, it would be longer, but still you’re only up at 10 to 12 weeks for a new, a new design. So, yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, you know, as you guys have seen it, it’s quite an involved process. We’ve had a lot of. Design evolution to get here, but we’re quite a finesse process now.  Joel Saxum: Yeah, that was the exact question I was gonna ask because it’s one we get asked all the time too, right? What? What? Hey, and now it’s, we’re, [00:14:00] we’re sitting at the end of the year coming into the new year and in the United States, our blade season in the southern part of the states. Right. You’re south Texas, you’re starting in the next two months, right? Oh yeah. You’re starting end of January, beginning of February, and then that starts to roll north as we go. And by May we’re in full swing Absolutely. Across North America. So. If you’re a manufacturer listening to this, or a manufacturer, if you’re an operator listening to this and, um, you’re thinking, Hey, maybe, maybe I’d like to, if I don’t wanna roll it all out, maybe I’d like to try a couple. We’re gonna do an LEP campaign. Let’s get this stuff out there and see what it looks like. Um, you need to get ahold of will.  Allen Hall: Oh, you should, and you should try it. I think a lot of the operators haven’t dabbled too much. They’ve seen a lot of products on the market, a lot of sort of, uh, chemical mixing apply. A polymer to the leading edge tapes, products, tapes, paint, yeah. All, all of that. And the, the, the harder products haven’t seen as much favor, but the, the issue is, is that all the softer products, I’ll call them, wear easy or particularly with [00:15:00] dirt.  Joel Saxum: To me this is set it and forget it. Right. So this is a, this is an uptime podcast consultant type thing. I have always felt in the last, I don’t know, four or five years of my career that I get access to a lot of the. Subject matter experts and the products and solutions that are like top tier, right? These are the ones that I would, yeah, so I think a lot of times like, man, if I wasn’t, if I, Joel Saxon owned a wind farm and I was an operator, I would do this. I would do that. I would, you know, I’d have Pete Andrews from me both here on here earlier today and I’d be doing these kind, but I would put a product like your under the armor edge shields on simply because to me, this is set it and forget it. Yeah, yeah. I’m gonna do it once and I’m done.  Will Howell: That’s it. You know, and we’ve got, we’ve got the initial lab test to kind of validate the really long lifetime of our products. But again, now we have the field data to back that up as there are many, many happy, happy customers in varying conditions. And, and yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s performing well. Interesting what you’re saying though, about. The lead time of the, um, products. You know, we’ve, we’ve really tried to [00:16:00] drive that down as much as, as much as possible. And look, we know the, the planning world out there is not, is not a perfect science, and there’s always gonna be people coming to us with super short, short lead times. But as we’ve scaled, that’s another, another issue that we’re trying to combat. So now that we have many years under our belt, our stock holding is increasing. We can do small projects, pretty much X stock. So we have. A stock of parts now that are available within a few days to ship out. It might just be a few, a few, a few machines. It could be a, a spot repair or a trial. Right, right, right. But we’ve got those, we’ve got those parts ready to go. So yeah, if anyone’s interested, even in a very short, short time scale, contact us. I mean, we may be able to help you out very, very quickly.  Joel Saxum: We’ve all heard about product. Disappearing outta the back of technician pickups in hotel parking lots too. Sometimes you just need an extra turbines worth the kit while you’re on site.  Allen Hall: That is for sure. And will I, if you, people haven’t heard of Armor Edge, which is hard to believe, [00:17:00] but I do run across them occasionally. Where should they go to learn more? How did they get ahold of you to, to set up a 2026 trial?  Will Howell: Yeah, so, um, I mean, our. Our, our website@armedge.com and that’s the, the UK spelling of arm edge with you in there. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, please come to the, come to the website. You can contact us through there. Um, I’m available on, on LinkedIn. Um, yeah, you can contact us anytime. Anytime. We, we do travel between, uh, the uk. Again, our US is a big, big market, so if you’re gonna be at any of the trade shows, you can come and come and say, Hey, and arrange a, arrange a time to. Time to talk. Yeah. Which, which of the trade shows are gonna be at this year? So we’ve got, um, blades, uh, the end of end of February, uh, in the US we’ve got, uh, the A-C-P-O-O and M event, um, event. And that’s the start of the start of March. Just before that, we’ll be, um, we’ve got one of our representatives in Australia at the Woma, [00:18:00] um, show as well. So, yeah. Yeah, it’s, uh, that’s the kind of the start, the start of the year as we move on. Um. Again, there’s gonna be a lot of, uh, interaction with customers and suppliers. So even outside the shows you, you might be able to get a hold of us, look out for us. Um, but I think coming up to the summer, we’ve then got the clean power event. We like to visit, visit that for a bit more of a higher, higher level view of what’s, uh, going on in, in the industry as well. Allen Hall: Well, will thank you so much for allowing us to get behind the scenes and. See the, the shop and see the, uh, demonstration of the installation of the shields. It was wonderful to see that. And thank you for joining us today.  Will Howell: No, great. Thank you very much for your time again. Appreciate it.

Anne Catona Lynn survived a traumatic car accident at age 4, multiple sexual assaults in her 20s, and decades of unprocessed PTSD—until she discovered EMDR therapy and began her healing journey. Now a trauma-informed consultant and author, Anne shares her transformative story and the specific techniques that helped her reclaim her life. Discover how childhood trauma affects physical health, why self-medication fails, and the surprising connection between adverse childhood experiences and autoimmune diseases. Learn practical, actionable strategies you can implement today to regulate your nervous system and begin healing. Anne also discusses her groundbreaking work building trauma-sensitive, resilient schools and communities—and how the same principles that heal individuals can heal entire organizations. Topics covered: EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization & Reprocessing) therapy breakthrough Childhood trauma and PTSD recovery Sexual assault healing and shame Mind-body connection: trauma and autoimmune disease Practical grounding exercises for nervous system regulation Reframing trauma narratives from shame to strength Building trauma-informed schools and communities Holistic healing: nutrition, movement, mindfulness When to seek professional help and therapy Resources mentioned: "Shedding Lies: Living Beyond Childhood Trauma" (available on Amazon, Kindle on sale for 99¢) "Depression Lied to Me" (anthology featuring Anne's story) Upcoming book: "Grief, Grace, and Gravity" (with her husband) Website: KatonLynnConsulting.com Keywords: trauma recovery, EMDR therapy, childhood PTSD, sexual assault healing, nervous system regulation, autoimmune disease, trauma-informed schools, healing strategies, adverse childhood experiences, mental health   Transcript:   

We're back with part 2 of this rerelease of IT HAD TO BE YOU by Susan Elizabeth Phillips. We're still hopping mad and ready to burn it down! Content Warnings: episode includes discussions of sexual assault, including in young childhood, on-page violent rape, statutory rape, rampant misogyny, malicious thinness, kink shaming, slut shaming, fat shaming, Madonna/Whore Complex, racism, and more. Lady Loves: Sabrina: having a group of badass, wonderful friends who will lift you up and remind you how you've advocated for yourself in the past after a terrible experience with a medical doctor. Mel: deciding to never read another SEP book on pod or off. Whatever author shows you that you can't trust them to take care of you as a reader, don't read them anymore! Romancelandia is huge and gorgeous and there's something out there for everyone! Want to support the show? Rate and review us on your favorite podcast app! It super helps the algorithm connect us to new listeners.  Want more of us? Check out our PATREON! This week Mel is telling Sabrina all about her latest MM rabbit hole!  Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior  Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast at gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms Tiktok @heaving_bosoms  Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This episode is all about the (sometimes surprising) benefits of comprehensive financing! Kristy breaks down why putting together a FULL plan for health will help patients and your practice in the long run. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Thank you so much for being here. I want you to know that the Dental A Team, we truly, truly love what we do. And I wanna start this out by just thanking all of you for allowing us to be here. I know we're with you in your car or while you're getting ready in the morning or while you're falling asleep at night, I don't know, maybe in your team meeting, but we're here with you somewhere or I wouldn't be able to say this and we value and appreciate that, the consulting team specifically.   We love what we do, we love helping clients, we love helping people, we love helping practices and practice owners build a business that works for them and not them always working for the business. So I'm just super excited to be here today. I wanted to just shout out you guys, massive thank you for the support that you give us, that you continue to bring to us and just know we're here. Dental A Team is here for all of your needs and just reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com anytime you need us. And I have with me today,   Kristy, Miss Kristy, I adore you. Thank you so much for being here. I said on a different podcast we recorded that we have a slew of time together today and I'm just, I love it. It is the best way to end a call week. So thank you, Kristy, for being here with me today. How are you? And I'm excited because I think you're really excited about this topic. So how are you doing, Kristy?   The Dental A Team (01:17) Yeah,   I'm doing well. I'm grateful to have time with you. We don't always get time during the week, so I'm getting some extra Tiff time and it feels good to end the week this way.   The Dental A Team (01:30) I agree. I agree. I committed recently, just so everyone knows, to being more intentional about my one-on-one time with the consultants. it really made me not just podcasting, but like actual one-on-one time. But it made me think yesterday while I was going through the schedule, kind of figuring it out, it made me think of doctors too and practices. And this is not in alignment with our, get to it, we'll get to profit in a second, but it is kind of in alignment with profit because   We tend to forget, we just get in the machine of doing and in the machine of business and we forget that there's people and that you're not the only one who's busy or stressed or what have you and that the team is counting on you, the team needs you. So my leads and my doctors, it's just like a friendly nudge, a friendly reminder that if you're feeling stressed, you probably need to open up some time in your schedule to insert some team time. And while we push our clients to do one-on-ones, I do one-on-ones every month.   with our consultants, but sometimes you just need one-on-one time that's not a one-on-one. You know what I mean? You just need connection. And that's what I call it, is I call it our connection time. So we have our one-on-ones, and then we have our connection time. And I think in office, it's a little bit easier, because you guys are side-by-side and you're talking, but still, to just have that 10, 15 minutes, it's like, hey girl, tell me how your life is. What's new? What's going on? And really connect with people.   It's my strong nudge to remind you guys to give the kudos, give the connection, and make time for the people who are there doing this with you. So, Kristy, thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. And I am thoroughly enjoying this because I've had so much Kristy time and I get time tomorrow morning. So I am really enjoying this week and it really lights my life up. So thank you. Now.   The Dental A Team (03:17) You're welcome.   I was going to tell you, I love that you say that and I truly do believe this does tie to profits. And I know in practice we're super, super busy. I like to call it, go break bread with your people. Like be intentional with the time, even if you have to combine it, go break bread, take them out, get the work done on reviewing what you need to review, but then connect as people. And I do think that that reaps rewards in your profits because   The Dental A Team (03:24) I agree.   The Dental A Team (03:47) The teams that do this are more connected and they jive together. So I do think it ties together.   The Dental A Team (03:53) I agree, thank you, I agree.   Now tell me, Kristy, we've got quick tips to increase profit, and honestly, this is a quick tip to increase profit. We'll get you a couple more, but Kristy, tell me, because I agree, I think the connection does, but what about the connection do you think it is that does help the profit? It does help people really be on the same page and same team? What is that doing for the bottom line from a numbers standpoint? Because we can see it from an emotional standpoint and the relationship, but from a numbers standpoint, what do you see?   in those practices that do go break bread together.   The Dental A Team (04:26) Yeah, I love that you say that because it's connecting as humans and also like letting us see each other in different ways. It again, we talk about this so much. We look through loops, the providers do looking for problems. So really good at being nitpicky and finding problems. And you know, maybe you have the teammate that was late three times this week. And when you actually sit down and find out   my gosh, their grandma's going through cancer and you didn't know. It just sheds things in a different light and it lets us serve each other versus when we're in that critical mindset, we pull apart. So it really does connect us together. And when we're connected together, even the person that's going through the trauma or turmoil, they feel safe in the environment and protected and lifted up by their team. So they can leave it at the door.   I know we talk about that all the time and as humans, it's almost a false thing to say, because when you're in turmoil, it just doesn't stop. But when you know people understand, it can be your freeing space for just a few minutes or a few hours while you're at work. So it creates a different understanding and it allows you to connect as a team.   The Dental A Team (05:42) Yeah, and thank you. I agree. And that in itself, I think allows you all to be on the same ⁓ wavelength, like the same page we're connected where we're able, well, we're able to ask better questions and we're more comfortable, we're more vulnerable, and we're able to say when we need help. And I think that's massive because when we can be vulnerable with each other and say, hey, I'm not, I don't know what this means. I don't know how to credential a doctor.   tell me what do you suggest? Where can I learn it? Or we're just able to speak to problems that we're having or areas we need help in. Makes it easier to ensure that we are hitting those goals, because otherwise we're kind of faking it till we make it, thinking I'm the only one with an issue and I'm the only one who's stressed out and I'm the only one sitting in this space. But when you do have that alignment and connection, it's much easier for a team to be vulnerable with each other.   And then we actually can push KPIs and we can push goals and we can create profit because we're in alignment.   The Dental A Team (06:46) Yeah, you know what's funny? I went through a HR course one time and I remember them saying the biggest thing that's going to determine a new employee staying is how well they feel received. And I like to say truly, like, that goes for all your team members. And sometimes when we get in the rut of our day to day and we see the same faces every day, we forget to take care of each other. And so taking   Like I said, it doesn't have to be fancy, but get out of your space and reconnect as a human. It's gonna reap rewards on how they serve your patients too. They're gonna show up differently for each other and patients.   The Dental A Team (07:23) Yeah. Yeah.   ⁓ that's a massive one. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I love it. Thank you, Kristy That was that was fun. I know that wasn't ⁓ what you had in mind yet, but I it. I liked it. So everyone, there's one quick tip. ⁓ I think it's quick. think it's it's easy, but it's intentional. So you have to be very intentional about your schedule and how you're going to accomplish it. So set your goal. Do the thing. Now, Kristy, I am really intrigued and excited to hear your   Quick tip on, what do we call it? Increasing profit is what we're calling this one. So your quick tip on increasing profit. What is your, what is it? I'm so excited. You guys, she just like lit up when I told her. She's like, I've got an idea. And I'm just as shocked as you all are to hear it here. We're all hearing it the first time together. Let's go, let's hear it.   The Dental A Team (08:15) You think I'm going to say AR and I'm not.   The Dental A Team (08:18) I did!   The Dental A Team (08:21) Actually, it is part of it and we'll get to it. But the one that I'm thinking about right now is get to comprehensive financing. Everybody wants to just phase out phase one and you guys are tripping over dollars to make two. Like find a solution that gets people healthy. Then you can always back up to phase one if we can't find a solution. But so many times we dive into just the first phase.   The Dental A Team (08:29) Mm.   The Dental A Team (08:48) and we tap people out and then it's not till next year. So just try something different and get permission to share all you see clinically so your TC's can present comprehensive finances.   The Dental A Team (09:05) my gosh, you did. You came in swinging with that one. Okay, thank you. That is brilliant and I love that. And it is a quick tip. Now explain, define, make definitions here. So what would comprehensive financing by that, what do you mean?   The Dental A Team (09:19) What I mean is out of everything the doctor talked about, the total cost to get you healthy is, right? Presenting and finding a solution so they have a plan to get healthy. We're always gonna let the patient be in the driver's seat so we can do it in their timeframe or however their budget allows. But for the most part, give them a plan to be healthy, especially if that's what their goal is versus I don't wanna shock them. Literally the other day I had   a doc on and I was like, okay, so what you're telling me is if I come into you as a new patient and you're my doctor and you think I have cancer, you're not going to tell me that you're going to like just plant a little seed and then you're going to it come back and you're going to spring it on me. get permission. Well, number one, get in relationship with your patient and find out what their goals are and then get permission to share. And then also tell them we're going to   The Dental A Team (10:01) haha   The Dental A Team (10:15) we're gonna do this, they get to decide how fast or how slow we go. And so with that, then it can guide you because so many times I was telling, I remember back when I very first started, there was a doctor and he'd treatment plan crowns in all quadrants. And of course it was an elderly lady that had a budget, lived on a fixed budget. And I thought I was doing great, because I was just gonna get the first tooth done that was broken and obvious.   And one month later she called and was like, all I was doing was eating bread and that tooth broke. And I was like, so truly had I presented a solution that fit in her budget and she could get them all done at the same time, it would have been better for her and the practice. So I'm just challenging you to start with everything and then you can always go backward and you will capture more.   The Dental A Team (10:48) no.   The Dental A Team (11:12) doing that.   The Dental A Team (11:14) I love that idea. how does, thank you for the definition, how does that improve the profit point for them?   The Dental A Team (11:22) Yeah, you're doing more treatment on one person. It doesn't take as many patients and ⁓ I can schedule it all right now. And in fact, know, the same doctor that I was talking about, and I say this when I'm coaching my clients, I wish I was a brilliant person that thought about it, and I didn't even think about it at the time. It was years later when I learned better, but that doctor used to do wisdom teeth and practice.   And so I'd sit there and we'd diagnose people with fillings all over their mouth and he'd say, ⁓ you don't want to be numb on both sides. It's so uncomfortable. We'll do this side, then that side. And the next patient would come and they'd need wisdom teeth and he'd go, ⁓ you want them to do them all at the same time. You don't want to go through that again. Just we'll up everything. And I'm like, wait a minute. It was good for this person, but not that. How about we just let them decide? Do you want to do more, right? Versus, or do you want to do less and come more often?   The Dental A Team (12:13) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (12:19) So again, it doesn't take as many people and it slows down your day if we're doing getting people healthy.   The Dental A Team (12:19) Yeah.   Yeah, I love that because it's building better blocks in your schedule. It's utilizing your time. Your dollar per hour is going to increase and you're not as busy. You're not running around from patient to patient and room to room quite as much because you've got bigger cases that you're working on at a time. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (12:49) You got it. And naturally,   your overhead goes down. I used one instead of five bibs. I used one saliva ejector instead, you know.   The Dental A Team (12:53) Yeah.   Mm   hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And time in the chair, marketing dollars spent. Yeah. And you're targeting a different demographic of patient avatar, because you're targeting a patient avatar that wants to get healthy and can figure out the finances with you rather than just new patients who might need things diagnosed. I love that. Well, you you shocked me. You did it. I love that. So   The Dental A Team (13:03) Yeah.   You got it.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (13:26) And I think actually those really tie in together now that I was going to repeat them and really in order to comprehensively diagnose and finance, right, to get the dollars for that, the team has to be in alignment. Like those things just don't, they don't happen for teams that aren't on board with your dental philosophies. And in order to be on board with your dental philosophies, you got to be connected as humans.   or they do start, I'm hands down telling you the truth from experience. If you lose the connection, they start to doubt you and what they're doing and what you're doing. They start really looking with a fine tooth comb at the things and it's just not worth it. So the connection piece, I do believe, like you said, it helps the profit points in multiple ways. And I think that's how to spearhead the comprehensive diagnosis and financing.   The Dental A Team (14:00) you   The Dental A Team (14:23) Also because then I can see a hygiene department who's on board with getting people healthy, co-diagnosing more comprehensively and pushing doctors to remember to diagnose comprehensively, which also will help on all areas, obviously.   The Dental A Team (14:38) Absolutely. I love that you say that. And I always use the saying Tiff, ⁓ happy team creates happy patients. You know, it happens by default. If you have a happy team, they serve the patients well and the money follows.   The Dental A Team (14:53) Yeah.   Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. think everything that we do in life, if we can come at it with the right mindset and the right energy, we're pouring out the right, if we're pouring out the energy we want to receive, we can only see that energy. And so we only receive that energy. And even when people come across with a different energy, we're like, ⁓ dang, but it doesn't hit, it doesn't penetrate. It doesn't shake our whole days. And I remember so many times having team members that are like,   this Tiff, this patient said this, this and this that ruined my whole day. And I'm like, well, why the, why are you giving them that power? Like, what do you mean? It's 11 a.m. Like we got, we got six more hours together, lady. Like, what are we doing here? So when you have that connection and I have had, know, when I was in office, I was office manager, I did all the things wrong and I did some things right. And I learned and I, and I failed and I stumbled and I got back up and   I know one of the hardest pieces of culture was towing that line of being the supportive, you can come vent, friend, manager, and being the accountability space of like, we're gonna find solutions and just building the culture and the energy. it's not easy, it's hard and it takes work and it really takes, think everyone, you said it earlier, just really being in alignment.   with where we're headed and being connected on a relationship level that isn't just, it's personal and we've got this tangible relationship in between us, but it's also here because of those goals, because of what we're after, because of what we're doing, if that makes sense, rather than it just being the friendship. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (16:45) Yes, 100 %   I agree with you.   The Dental A Team (16:49) ⁓ I love that. So comprehensive diagnosis in general, I think helps profit points and then allowing your team the space and the ways to finance. What have you seen, Kristy, in your ⁓ experience, the best ways to do that? you said, within a budget, what are they doing? How are they doing this?   The Dental A Team (17:12) Yeah, well, again, I think it's getting in relationship with the patient and finding out what they really want, what's bringing them in. I mean, we talk about you got to, I say patients buy what they want, not necessarily what they need, right? And in dentistry, again, I'm there with you, we do things backward. We all want to say they're buying implants. No, no, no, they're buying what the implant gives them. They're not buying implants, but we want to   focus on, look at this, you know? And so we have to get to their level and figure out what is it gonna give them and tie everything back to that. And when you achieve that and you can show them how to get what they want, you're gonna win, you're gonna win. And then it's just about making it fit in their budget. So.   The Dental A Team (17:43) Yeah.   Yeah, to the patient drivers. Yeah. Yeah,   I remember I had ⁓ one of the first all on four cases that my doctor I worked for ever did. He, it was in the TC room and I remember hearing the treatment coordinator being like, what about that? Like, what do you miss eating? And the guy was like, I want a steak. I haven't had a steak in so long.   because he just had regular dentures. He's like, I want to chew a steak. And I remember, he wasn't buying an all-in-four denture. He was buying the steak. He was buying the lifestyle that he wanted to live. And I remember him coming back later and being like, I ate so much steak. He was just so happy. And the issues or the... ⁓   Like the rubbing, know, there's just so many, there's so many tweaks all in fours. They come with so many headaches, that's okay. He was like, I'm fine with it. I can still, I can eat my steak. Like let's fix it, let's keep going. But you're right. And anything we do in life in general, Brody used to say to me, we go to the store. He still does this, he's 17. But he's like, is it a want or a need? Mom, is it a want or a need? Yeah, my little four year old in the cart. I'm like, bro, we're here for me. So you don't need to ask me those questions.   But is it a want or a need? And I'd be like, well, it's a want that serves a need. And so we're buying, I'm buying it, right? But those are the spaces that we think people are buying for need, right? And that it's like, I'm buying an implant because I'm missing a tooth, but we're buying an implant because I want to be able to eat. We don't buy things just for need, we buy things typically.   I'll buy the expensive toilet paper because I want an expensive toilet paper lifestyle. I need the toilet paper, right? Like you're gonna, everything you do in life is based off of a want. So I love that you said that, Kristy, thank you. And you did, you came in with a shocker. I was so excited and my gosh, you nailed it. It was a home run. So I love it. I think we gave two quick tips on how to increase profit. I think they're very easily implemented. Again, easy versus intentional.   The Dental A Team (19:52) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (20:15) Be intentional and Kristy, thank you so much. I can go all day on action items, but if you had to serve them with two action items today, what would you tell them to do?   The Dental A Team (20:27) Ooh, boy, get in relationship with your team and see them as humans first and foremost, and then choose to get out of your comfort zone and share with your patients everything. Get permission to share everything and ease them and tell them you're gonna be here for the journey and we're gonna do it in their timeframe. Let them choose, don't choose for   The Dental A Team (20:49) nailed it. Yep, I love it. Thank you. Awesome. All right, listeners, I hope you loved this one as much as I loved this one. I had fun. Kristy, thank you for taking us down that journey. It was beautifully expansive. And if you guys can even just take a little glimpse into what it's like working with Kristy, today was your day. And Kristy, your phenomenal consultant, all of your years of experience and intuitiveness, if I might say.   Really provide you with some stellar services to give to our clients and the the Dental A Team listeners So thank you for being here Kristy and thank you for your knowledge everyone listening Drop her a five-star freaking review you guys. This is Kristy nailed it today and I want to see those five stars So drop us a five star below. Let us know that you enjoyed this topic Let us know what you're implementing right away and as always you can reach out to us at Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and   at TheDentalATeam.com website. You can sign up for a quick little consult with us, you guys. Our team is phenomenal. We're really great at keying in on some easy, implementable things that you can do right away, whether you start working with us or not. We will always give you some tools. go reach out and we cannot wait to hear from you all. Thanks.  

In this episode of Fostering Conversations, host Amy Smith sits down with Michelle Ostmark, the Statewide Mentoring Coordinator for Utah Foster Care, to discuss the Utah Foster Care Mentoring Program and why it matters. Michelle explains how the program pairs experienced foster parents with new or existing foster and kinship families to provide guidance, emotional support, and real-life insight throughout the fostering journey. From navigating first placements and court processes to coping with reunification, burnout, and self-care, mentors help ensure families don't feel alone. The conversation highlights how mentoring builds community, strengthens placements, and improves outcomes for children by supporting the adults who care for them. Michelle also shares how the program began, its statewide growth, success stories, and how former foster parents can continue giving back as mentors—even if they're no longer licensed. Learn how to request a mentor or become one at: https://utahfostercare.org/foster-parent-resources/mentors/ Transcript:  Welcome to Fostering Conversations. On today’s episode, we’ll be talking about the statewide Utah Foster Care Mentoring Program and its importance to our Utah foster families. Amy: Welcome to Fostering Conversations. I’m your host, Amy Smith. Today we have Michelle Ostmark, who is the statewide mentoring coordinator for Utah Foster Care. Thanks for joining us, Michelle. Michelle: Thank you for having me. Amy: So we’re excited to talk about the mentoring program. It is part of Utah Foster Care and available to all of our foster families in the state of Utah. Is that correct? Michelle: It’s also available to kinship families that have gone through the licensing process or have started the licensing Amy: which is awesome. I think kinship, all foster families need support, but kinship have an added layer of need of support, so I love that you’ve included that now. Michelle: Yeah. I think it’s important that they also have support for the children that are coming into their home. They have the same. Needs that any other child coming into care have, and they just have an extra dynamic of having a personal relationship with the biological families. Amy: Yeah, absolutely. So let’s just start by what is the mentoring program? Michelle: So the mentoring program is designed to pair a seasoned foster family with a new or existing family that needs additional support, or. Resources in each of their communities. We gear it towards new families just so that as they’re starting their foster care journey, they’re able to have somebody that they can call and gather information from, learn what’s appropriate, what’s not, questions to ask as they’re getting placements in their home, um, when they’re struggling, when there’s. exciting news for a child or their family, they have somebody that they can share those things with. Yeah. So that they’re not feeling alone. Amy: I love that because I think back to when I started fostering and I didn’t know like anything, like you just like you get trained. But then you forget what you’re doing and then a kid shows up and you’re like, wait, what am I doing again? Yeah. Michelle: Yeah. And I think our training is amazing, Amy: It is. It’s beautiful. Michelle: But like during that process, you go through the training and then you wait for your licensing and approval, and oftentimes there’s a few months that pass by. Yeah. And so all of that training that you’ve had, you’re super excited. But once you get that call for that child, all of that training and all of that, just go. Goes right out the window. And so foster families often panic because they don’t know what the next step is. And yeah, what do I do now? Who do I call? Why do these children have all of these appointments? And so having somebody that’s calling in and checking on them and making sure that they, have some. Support and somebody that has actually been down that road before them. They have lived experience that they can offer, advice and support for, and sometimes we have new foster families that have never parented before, so they don’t know who to call for medical appointments, dental appointments. And so having a mentor that is in their area, they’re able to, give them. A list of providers that they can possibly take the children to and just prepare them for what to expect during those Amy: Yeah, No, I think that’s so important to have that access to somebody that knows. And if nothing else, the fostering journey is so unique. You need someone that understands what you are doing and can tell you, yeah, that’s totally normal. Yes, I know. It’s absolutely wild what you’re enduring, but, yep. Sounds about normal. Michelle: Yeah. I think that, when we start this journey as foster adoptive families or kinship families you have a certain idea of what it’s going to be like, but once you step into that role, it’s nothing like that. Nothing like that. And so, just having somebody that you can talk to, that you can vent to is so important. Yeah. Our friends and our families in our personal life, often are very supportive, right when we start this journey. But because of the confidentiality that we have to maintain for the children that are coming into our home, and not just for them but for their biological families, um, we’re not able to share this stuff. Yeah. With. our personal friends and family where a mentor signs a confidentiality form that has been approved through DCFS that allows them to talk to these foster families in depth. They can talk to ’em about their court cases, visitation, anything that’s going on with the children, so that helps them get additional insight and how to best support the families. Amy: Yeah. I think that’s really important for mentors and the families that are getting mentored to know, is that they can talk about that information with each other, Michelle: And mentors can also attend child and family team meetings, because they’re, again, signing another confidentiality form. Their role will be a little bit different because they’re there to support the foster family, so they’re not there to offer insight or ideas or suggestions on the case just to help be a support to the foster family and help them understand. Why some of those things are being put in place for the children or for the families of the children so that they can have a little bit of support as they move forward with the case. think Amy: really valid. I remember as a foster parent, I would, after the family and team meetings, I would talk to the casa that was assigned to my foster child at the time. And it was just so nice to have somebody that knew what was going on. ’cause it was, you just, there’s not very many people who know what’s going on. And so it was just nice to have somebody. That could listen and be there. And yes, she was the advocate for the child, but it was just nice to have another adult to speak with. And so I think that’s what the mentoring program really Michelle: Yeah. It’s offering the support for our families that are providing the care for these children that are coming into the foster care system. They’re getting a ton of support. Their families are getting a ton of support, to help with reunification. But then our foster families are left going, where do I fit into all of this? So mentors also help with, all of those feelings with reunification. Why am I so sad? Why do these children need to go home? Why is the goal reunification? And if reunification doesn’t happen and it moves towards adoption, it’s helping them with that process as well. Yeah. So our mentors are designed to stay with a new family from the time that they are first licensed through their first placement. And then if they need additional support and help and they wanna keep ’em on longer, they can. We also offer it to existing families that are just struggling with like a new case that is really difficult and they just need, some additional support. So our whole goal is to build that village around our foster families so that they have people that can understand exactly what they’re going through, have already been through some of these difficult. Issues and can empathize with them in a way that other people can’t. We work really closely with the resource family consultants as well. Because they’re also a good support for our families. Yeah. But again, unless they’ve lived this right, they don’t have the lived experience to Amy: and they’re also supporting so many families. There’s 10, ish per region probably, and. They’re dealing with a lot of families. So mentors tell us how many families one mentor would take on. Michelle: mentors can take between one and eight families on their caseload. Their goal is to reach out to the family, one to four times a month. answer phone calls from the family to offer support if the family. Needs them. They don’t have to wait for the mentor to call them. Right. They’re able to call the mentor anytime. And in addition to that, if they’re unable to reach their mentor at any time, they also get my contact information. Yeah. And can contact me with questions and then I can guide them through whatever needs to happen in that moment. So Mentors are great for crisis situations. They can help find respite resources in the community, like again, like doctors, dentists, therapists, things like that. Yeah. They mentor each other and I help mentor them as well as a former foster, adoptive mom. And we make sure that, again, they have additional training to help support these families as needs arrive. Amy: I love that. Michelle: Tell Amy: Tell us a little bit about why and how the mentoring program was born. Michelle: So the mentoring program started. Nine years ago, we started researching throughout America what mentoring programs looked like. Most of the information we received were mentors for children. Okay. But we were not seeing a lot. On mentors for foster families. So we researched things for about six months. We came up with some great ideas and how this was gonna look. We reached out to DCFS. They are the ones that actually thought that this would be a great program for our foster families, and had asked for it for several years, and we finally launched it. We started in the Salt Lake region and within eight months we had it statewide. Okay. So currently we have 86 mentors statewide. We’re always in need of mentors who have some experience, and we have mentored 425 families from July, 2025 to the present, Amy: which is amazing when you only have you what said 86 mentors and 4 25 families. So yes, there’s clearly a need for more mentors, Michelle: in every region Amy: it’s also showing like we’re like, if you need a mentor, we’re gonna make it happen. Whether that’s you or someone in your region, ideally you want someone close to them, right? Someone that they could physically get together with if they needed Michelle: Yes. So go Amy: to lunch, grab a coffee, whatever Michelle: it is. Yeah. So our mentors actually. We’ll invite their families over for barbecues. They’ll take ’em, plates of cookies, just welcome stuff. A lot of our mentors use a Marco Polo app. Okay. Yeah. So that they have like, face-to-face interaction. Quite a bit. That’s a great idea. And a lot of families sometimes get a little overwhelmed and they’re like, oh, it’s just one more person I need to have contact, or, What they’re not understanding though, is this is a great support for you. Yeah. And. Our mentors have that lived experience so that, when you’re calling them either in a crisis or when there’s something good happening, they can celebrate with you or they can go through those trenches with you, right? During those difficult things. And I’ve seen mentors literally stop what they’re doing to go help a family in crisis and, offer respite. Just take a meal over or even just meet ’em for, an ice cream or a soda somewhere, just to help them learn how to build, self-rated regulation skills. And also to learn how to do some self-care. ’cause I think with our foster families. When you’re in the middle of all of this, I think we often forget to take care of ourselves. Amy: Oh yeah. You don’t have time. Michelle: Yeah. And so our mentors are really good at reminding our families that you need to do self-care too. Amy: Yeah. Take a little break. Take a little breather. Yeah. I love that. That’s awesome. Are you able to share like, any success stories with us about things that you’ve seen over the years of mentors or mentorees, if that’s what they’re called? Michelle: Yeah. A lot of our mentors and their families that they’re mentoring, become friends. Yeah. Through this process. Who better to understand what your family’s going through? Their kids connect in a different way because they understand, oh, our family isn’t the only one that is doing foster care. And so biological children, adopted children and all of the. Children that are placed in care are often connecting on a different level. Yeah. So I’ve seen a lot of friendships come out of mentoring and also I’ve seen a lot of families that have started, foster care that had a mentor at the beginning of their journey become mentors. And so Amy: they see the Michelle: of it Mm-hmm. Amy: they wanna give back in that way as well. Michelle: well. Yeah. And it just helps them when they had somebody that’s so supportive, they wanna be able to say, Hey, this person really helped me through a lot of, tough times or great times, and I wanna be able to help another family that’s starting out as well. Amy: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I was thinking Michelle: back Amy: like two weeks ago, we had the Western region mom’s night out. And it was like 50 plus women that come, and I’m not a foster parent anymore, but we actually hosted at my mom’s house, so I still get to go every year. And so it’s so fun for me to get to go see these foster moms, many of who I know well because I was fostering at the same time in them and many new faces that have come on since. But it is amazing to see what that connection and comradery and. Just being able to sit there and chat and listen and totally relate to what each other are doing. And as a foster mom who hasn’t been doing this for the last year or two, I I’ve removed myself from that world in a small way. ’cause I don’t bring kids in on a regular basis. But putting myself back in that environment is just a reminder of like, we need each other and. You need those supports of who knows what this feels like and who can say that is absolutely insane. I can’t believe you did that, but Yep. I’m doing it too. So I just think the mentoring program is a small scale of that, right? We get together once a year for this mom night out, but mentoring can be every day, every week, every month when you need it. Yeah. Michelle: Yeah. I think it reminds us the why. Why do we do this? Yeah. Why do we bring these children into our home? Fostering is not an easy task by any means. You’re opening up your heart, your home, you’re subjecting yourself and your children to often heartache. Yeah. And so it reminds us of the why, like, especially when we. Build those long lasting relationships with foster families. Some of my closest and dearest friends now are families that I met through Amy: Foster. Yeah, absolutely. ’cause Michelle: they can relate to me. I can relate to them, their children can relate to my children, and we’ve become lifelong friends. Yeah. Through this process. And another thing, like you mentioned, you’re no longer a foster parent. I’m no longer a foster parent. One of the ways that families can still stay connected is as long as they’ve left DCFS in good standing and they wanna still remain involved, they can still be mentors. Yeah. Even if they’re not licensed, Amy: I just learned that today, speaking to you before we started the episode. So I think that’s an amazing way to give back. ’cause I was talking to a mom who was like, yeah, I don’t a foster mom. I don’t know how much longer I’m gonna foster, but I still wanna give back after. And I was like, it’s hard. It’s hard to know where you can still give back when you’re used to bringing kids into your home. That feels like the only way. So I think this is an amazing way that. Foster parents can give back that have had that experience, but maybe can’t, can no longer bring kids into their home. So I love that you’re sharing that. ’cause I had no idea. So hopefully we’re educating listeners as well that hey, you can still be a mentor if you’ve been a foster parent and left in good standing, which hopefully you have. Yes. Michelle: Yes. And we are the only state that I’m aware of that we are able to give our mentors a small stipend. It’s not huge, but we do give them a small stipend for their time in making sure that they’re contacting the families and Yeah, and letting us know what their needs are and. As they’re contacting families, they’re reporting back to me so that I can also help with any type of resources that they might need. Also can help connect them with our care communities. I meet with the DCFS, our RFC team, the resource Family consultants on a regular basis, so I can also reach out to them and. Say, Hey, this family is really struggling. These are the services that we have been able to provide for them through Utah Foster care. What can you do to help us wrap some more services around this family? Because at the end of this, we wanna make sure that they’re. Successful and that their placement is successful. Yeah. And they’re not leaving after their first placement saying, this is not what I imagined this would be. And I felt so alone in this process. We wanna make sure our families feel supported and cheered on, and they just have all of these people making sure that their needs are being met. Because if our foster families are feeling supported, the children that are coming into their home also have a much easier time. So, and we can help in that process of reunification or, sending them to kinship. Our kinship families are also facing those same things so that, we’re making sure that they have their village and they have the people that they need to rely on and count on when things get hurt or, yeah, there’s joy. Amy: And I think too when you have people that you can talk to I realized this a few weeks ago at this same mom’s night out, one of the moms was telling all these things, and I did, I text Tammy over at Care Communities and I said, so and so needs a care community. She didn’t ask for one. No, but I decided that she needed one. Yeah. And it was like sometimes as foster parents are the givers, right? We’re the people in the community that are literally stepping in to bring children in, strangers into our home in the middle of the night. Like it’s insanity if you think about it. And so oftentimes we don’t ask for help and sometimes we don’t even know that we need help. ’cause we’re just used to giving. That’s just what Michelle: we And so I think. Amy: Mentoring can also as these parents are talking and chatting with you, there might be ideas like, Hey, they do need a care community, or, Hey, they do need, we need to get them set up with a therapist to talk through all of these really difficult things. Or, Utah Foster Care has the free therapy now and like, there’s just so many ways that people with an outside lens can support. ’cause sometimes you can’t always Michelle: see it when you’re Yeah. And I don’t think our families realize that there, that Utah foster care has so many Amy: supports I agree. Michelle: Yeah. And so we do, we, I get referrals from mentors saying, Hey, this family could really benefit for, extra help with one of our clinicians here at Utah Foster Care. They’re really struggling with reunification and they might need a little extra support and we can offer that to them. Yeah. I contact one of the clinicians, especially in their region. Yeah. And just say, Hey, can you reach out? I always check with the family first and make sure that they know we’re gonna be calling just so don’t catch ’em off guard. Yeah. And same thing with our care communities, we’re able to say. This is a service that we might be able to provide for you. Is this something you’ll be interested in? And if they’re not, we also have, other resources available to our families. We can get some meals delivered to them. We can get, respite situated and make sure that they’re being taken care of in different ways. So, yeah, and mentors do a lot of that too, yeah. They take time to, to do that for the families that they’re mentoring. If they need additional support, like that is what we’re doing for these families, is we’re making sure that we’re surrounding them with as much love and support as we can to make their foster care journey a little less Amy: stressful. Yes. Lighten the load in a small way. Yes. So tell us if somebody is wanting to become a mentor or feels like, Hey, I could really benefit from a mentor, what do they Michelle: do? So they just need to go to our Utah Foster Care website www.utahfostercare.org/mentors. There are a couple of tabs on there. One is a video just explaining the mentoring program just like we did today. Another is. Become a mentor. You would just fill that out. I would get that information, contact you. There’s a brief 20 minute training that we would do over the phone. Just get you prepared for what you would be doing as a mentor, and then we would get you started. If you need a mentor or a family that could benefit from one you just fill out the tab that. Is request a mentor. Okay. And then that, again we try to pair families fairly quickly within a week of them becoming licensed. If I get a request for an existing family, we do the same thing. We try and, get them paired as quickly as we possibly can. And then, the mentor just starts reaching out to them, sets up times to visit with them if that’s needed. And then you just build that friendship and that support as you go. And Amy: so this is a random thought, but what happens if like someone’s not vibing? Michelle: It happens. Okay. Or if the Amy: mentor’s like, actually I hate this. Please get me out of here. Michelle: So, we’ve had some situations where, a family is just like, I don’t think that I, this is the right person for me. Yeah. I just reach out to the mentor and say, Hey, can you gimme some insight on what’s happening? I talk to the family and then we repair them with somebody else. Sometimes they ask me if I’ll be their mentor, which is fine. Yeah. I have no problem helping and supporting families as well. Yeah. But that happens. We’ve had mentors who have had to step back for some time, either for personal reasons, medical reasons. Yeah. Or just they need a break. So they’ll let me know ahead of time, Hey, these are the families that I’m mentoring. Can you pick up for them while I’m on vacation? Or, I have to have surgery, so I need a little bit of, time off. We have mentors who. Have really difficult cases themselves and Yeah. And they just, Amy: just a lot to carry someone else’s load too. Michelle: Yeah. And so, they’ll oftentimes say, Hey, I have six families right now. These two families are really close to, ending their placement for, whether it’s reunification, adoption, or them going to kinship. And they’ll just say, I have these two families and I really think that they could benefit for. With keeping another mentor in place for them. But I need to step back for, yeah, a couple months just to, focus on my own family and my own needs for a while. That happens and, nine times outta 10 they’ll take a few weeks off and then call me and say, okay, I’m ready to come back. Amy: Yeah. Because that’s what foster parents do. We we say we need a break, and then we’re like, just kidding. We’re back. Michelle: Yeah. And I’ve built some great, friendships with the mentors on my team because they’re calling me all the time and just saying, okay, I need to vent. Yeah. And that’s what we do. We listen to each other. And something that we would tell, one of our personal friends, they may not understand, I’ve sure I’ve vented about, personal situations with either a foster placement or my own children. And people are like, why do you keep doing this to Amy: yourself? Exactly. Michelle: And so it’s nice to be able to have somebody that you can vent to and they’re just like, oh, I totally get that. Exactly. What can I do for you to make this situation better for you? And then oftentimes you just need to vent. Yes. And then you’re good. Amy: And I’ve found too that sometimes you just have to cry or laugh together at the total insanity of your life. Yes. And no one really is gonna get that unless they’ve done it or are doing Michelle: it. Yeah. And I’ve seen. F foster families come together during some really critical times for another foster family. Yeah, absolutely. And kinship family. When there’ve been, tragedies in their family, those foster care communities band together to really support, whatever’s happening in that family. And it’s been beautiful to see in a lot of ways. Yes. Looking on it from. Working here at Utah Foster Care, in addition to being a foster adoptive mom. Just seeing the amount of families that just love and care for each other in a different way is just beautiful. Amy: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. No it is. I always say it’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done, and it’s the most beautiful thing I’ve ever done because it is, it’s so hard and yes, we had to step away to to care for all the kids that we now have, but it’s something that I’m so grateful that I’m part of and so honored to know how difficult and how beautiful it is. So it’s just it truly is an incredible community to get to be a part of. Michelle: Yeah. When you start it, you don’t think you’re gonna end up, with Amy: however Michelle: children. But yeah. I started this journey with three children of my own and ended up with. Eight children of my own Uhhuh. So, and then many more that continue to reach out and yeah, absolutely. Stay in contact. So it’s a great, it’s a great thing to be a part Amy: of. It really is. Thank you so much Michelle: for your time. Amy: and thank you for all of the energy and time that you put into the mentoring program and supporting our Utah foster families. If you wanna learn more, head over to Utah foster care.org. Thanks for joining us.

Hey HBs! Mel and Sabrina are mad and rereleasing IT HAD TO BE YOU by Susan Elizabeth Phillips. This is a doozy! Content Warnings: episode includes discussions of sexual assault, including in young childhood, on-page violent rape, statutory rape, rampant misogyny, malicious thinness, kink shaming, slut shaming, fat shaming, Madonna/Whore Complex, racism, and more. Want to support the show? Rate and review us on your favorite podcast app! It super helps the algorithm connect us to new listeners.  Want more of us? Check out our PATREON! This week Mel is telling Sabrina all about her latest MM rabbit hole!  Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior  Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast at gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms Tiktok @heaving_bosoms  Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ https://youtu.be/-flNeKF6CxQ?si=xIIQ4LUl7oraQjkg Microsoft’s Cyril Belikoff joins Vince Menzione to reveal the seismic shift occurring within the newly reimagined Microsoft Marketplace. As the industry moves toward a predicted $300 billion partner opportunity by 2030, this discussion deconstructs the evolution of the “Frontier” vision, the launch of the AI apps and agents category, and the critical “Resale Enabled Offer” (REO) that is currently doubling deal sizes for early adopters. Whether you are a software company looking to scale globally or a reseller aiming to stitch together complex AI solutions, the message is clear: the flywheel is already spinning, and those who wait for a “perfect strategy” risk being permanently displaced by more agile competitors who are getting their feet wet today. Key Takeaways The Microsoft Marketplace has been reimagined into a single destination for discovering, buying, and deploying AI apps and agents. Analysts predict a staggering $300 billion opportunity for partners within the Microsoft Marketplace by 2030. The new Resale Enabled Offer (REO) allows software companies to authorize channel partners to resell on their behalf across specific geographies with minimal overhead. Cloud migration is far from over, as massive amounts of on-premise data and ISV apps still need to be modernized for the AI era. Marketplace deal sizes are doubling as customers use Azure commitments to retire their marketplace acquisition costs. Successful partners are moving away from “boiling the ocean” strategies and instead focusing on transacting one or two deals to learn the ecosystem’s mechanics. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags: Microsoft Marketplace, AI apps and agents, Resale Enabled Offer, REO, Cyril Belikoff, Azure Marketplace, AppSource, cloud solutions, software companies, digital transformation, AI strategy, channel led sales, ISV solutions, cloud migration, Azure commitments, Microsoft Cloud, Frontier vision, MSP opportunity, marketplace transacting, AI monetization, global scale, procurement, IT deployment, technical modernization, partner ecosystem, business applications. Opening Lines: [00:00:00] Cyril Belikoff: Marketplace is really the extension of our vision for Frontier, uh, and the Microsoft Cloud. You know, the, the Microsoft technology takes a customer a long way, but in many ways to complete the thought. If you’re in football terms, you want to cross over the line and score touchdown. You can’t just get, uh, to the red zone. [00:00:20] Cyril Belikoff: You actually need partner solutions. [00:00:26] Vince Menzione: So let’s, let’s kick off to Marketplace a little bit right, too, because, uh, it’s been a big year for Marketplace, or 20, the first half of 2026 fiscal year 2026 has been a big year. A lot of announcements, a lot of things going on in the world, in marketplace. Where do we wanna start there? Let’s recap some of it. [00:00:44] Cyril Belikoff: Yeah. Um, so, um. It feels like a long time ago, but in, at the end of September, [00:00:51] Vince Menzione: yeah. [00:00:52] Cyril Belikoff: Um, at the AR tour, uh, in Chicago, we announced a new Microsoft marketplace. We reimagined that experience. It’s a new customer experience, single destination for customers to. You know, discover, find, try, buy, and deploy cloud solutions, AI apps and agents all in one place. [00:01:11] Cyril Belikoff: And so historically, we’ve had a little bit, uh, of decentralization. We had this thing called the Azure Marketplace and AppSource for different experiences. AppSource was more for teams and, and copilot. Um, and, and office, Azure Marketplace. Of course, that was for Azure. We brought all of that into one place. [00:01:30] Cyril Belikoff: So customers, whether they are looking for a SaaS solution running on Azure, an agent that snaps into copilot, an experience that runs in our security store, now they can go to one place. Um. marketplace.microsoft.com. It’s one, it’s the new Microsoft marketplace. And we have an, of course, we have a, we had, we launched a brand new category, AI apps and agents, and we launched that category in September. [00:01:54] Cyril Belikoff: Uh, bringing together numerous, uh, uh, partner offerings. Yeah. And today we have the largest catalog, um, probably in the mid four thousands of AI and agents. Wow. Available to customer. So fantastic. There was, there was quite a big moment in September. Um, and then fast forward a little bit to November, we announced a resale enabled offer, um, at Ignite [00:02:15] Vince Menzione: eo. [00:02:16] Vince Menzione: Eo [00:02:16] Cyril Belikoff: eo. I, [00:02:17] Vince Menzione: I like EO reminds me of the band back in the day. [00:02:19] Cyril Belikoff: Yeah. R Speedwagon. There you go. Uh, well, and it’s, it’s not that far from it because Oreo accelerates. Yeah. Um, what partners can do, uh, with the marketplace and really connects. Software companies and resellers, which I’m sure we’ll talk about in a second. [00:02:34] Cyril Belikoff: But that’s really the recap, um, of, uh, you know, the new Microsoft marketplace, how we enabling it for, uh, for partners through the the resell enable offer. [00:02:45] Vince Menzione: So, I know we talked on this a little bit, but I wanna maybe just expand on it. What does the frontier push and the marketplace evolution mean for partners? [00:02:53] Vince Menzione: Because I, I think it’s huge for both, for these partners to really monetize and accelerate their success working with you. [00:03:00] Cyril Belikoff: Yeah. So, um. Marketplace is really the extension of our vision for Frontier, uh, and the Microsoft Cloud. You know, the, the Microsoft technology takes a customer a long way, but in many ways to complete the thought and to, you know, uh, uh. [00:03:20] Cyril Belikoff: If you’re in football terms, you wanna cross over the line and score a touchdown, you can’t just get, uh, to the red zone. You actually need partner solutions. [00:03:28] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:03:29] Cyril Belikoff: Uh, and so that’s where the partner solutions, combined with Microsoft’s first party offerings become a really, really. Great offering and powerful offering for our customers to, to become Frontier. [00:03:40] Cyril Belikoff: So we have obviously a ton of AI experiences, our own co-pilot experiences, uh, Microsoft Foundry, which is a platform for ai, but in, in many ways, we need those industry solutions. We need those AI apps and agents from partners to complete that offering. And that’s really. How it comes together and, uh, you know, uh, I heard you from o was just on before me. [00:04:01] Cyril Belikoff: They actually predict that the Microsoft marketplace, uh, is a 300 billion partner opportunity by 2030. Yeah, they’re talking about, I think, mid eighties growth. We have literally seen our business for the last three years, and we are in the middle of our, uh, you know, third year doubling. And so when you get three or four years of doubling every year, that’s compounded doubling. [00:04:24] Cyril Belikoff: Um, so, uh, we have seen lots of momentum from customers, lots of interest. We’ve made it, you know. Interesting for customers. Um, and incentivize our customers with their Azure commitments that can retire their marketplace, uh, acquisitions that way. We’ve made it, we’ve put incentives for partners and for our own sellers. [00:04:44] Cyril Belikoff: So we really creating the flywheel for everybody in the market to see value from, uh, the marketplace. So. Like, like, like you mentioned, like m the, uh, you know, suggested [00:04:55] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:04:55] Cyril Belikoff: It’s only exploding the opportunity on marketplace. [00:04:58] Vince Menzione: Well, and you both touched on the fact that the data is not in the cloud yet. [00:05:02] Vince Menzione: Not all the data that needs to be in the cloud in order to drive the future of where we wanna go from a society. Mm-hmm. And from a business application perspective needs to be in the cloud. So huge opportunities for partners around data states, around securing that data, governing that data, and so on, on top of all the business applications, [00:05:19] Cyril Belikoff: right? [00:05:19] Vince Menzione: As promise. So incredible. Yep. So let’s [00:05:22] Cyril Belikoff: talk about, yeah. The call migration. The call migration, people think that is over and it’s long from over because customers have plenty, uh, on premise, uh, not only Microsoft technology, but the, the, the, the software company or the ISV app that sits on top of it. Yeah. [00:05:36] Cyril Belikoff: And that needs to be migrated, managed, modernized, um, and marketplace is a big part of that too. Um, but there’s so many services and, um, opportunities around it. [00:05:45] Vince Menzione: Incredible opportunity. Let’s talk about the channel and the channel opportunity. You, you touched on this earlier, right? So this really lighting up the channel. [00:05:53] Vince Menzione: I saw this loud and clear when we were at Ignite. Like this is a huge opportunity for the Es, for the resellers, for all the partners. And as part of REO, you’ve got huge opportunities you’re laying out for them for the 500,000 part partners. You know, we talk about the Bill Gates moment down here in Boca. [00:06:09] Vince Menzione: This is where it all started. Uh, yep. How, how do you think about marketplace in the channel today? [00:06:16] Cyril Belikoff: Yeah. You know, it’s, um, it’s vital. You know, we have a customer need, um, from. The smallest is small business all the way to enterprise. And the really, the only way we serve that, the only way we know how to serve that is with our partners from the largest of partners that serve our top enterprises down through, um, what we call small and medium and then down to our small business. [00:06:41] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:06:41] Cyril Belikoff: Um, and so, you know, we have seen our. You know, while our, we’ve seen a doubling of our business, we’ve seen three, three and a half to four x doubling of our channel led sales. [00:06:53] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:06:54] Cyril Belikoff: Um, over the last year. And so while our overall business is doubling, channel is accelerating even, you know, even more. [00:07:02] Cyril Belikoff: And so there, there’s a need from our customers because they buy from our channel and there’s obviously a need from the channel. And so we created this resale enabled offer. As you mentioned, we, um. We announced private preview in September and launched GA at Ignite. So, you know, uh, November, just before Thanksgiving holiday and retail Enable offer is all about scale and how we connect a, a, an independent software vendor or a software company. [00:07:27] Cyril Belikoff: To authorize a channel partner to resell on their behalf on a particular geography. And then that allows software companies to expand into new markets with very little overhead. And it allows the channel partners to create a set of offerings, not only from one partner, but you might have multiple software companies or applications that you stitch that are together to create an end-to-end customer offering or experience. [00:07:51] Cyril Belikoff: And so we are seeing, we are seeing many to many relationships. So software companies might authorize many resellers, many markets they’re in, for example. Yep. And then resellers, um, they’re, they’re becoming authorized resellers from many software companies so that they can really stitch together, end into end solution. [00:08:09] Cyril Belikoff: And it, we’re loving it and we are getting great feedback. It is early days for our global availability for, uh, re office, which. But we had partners that were literally waiting, um, uh, and waiting for deals. And within the first week there was, they were, uh, processing the, the Oreo deals at, at, at quite large scale already. [00:08:31] Cyril Belikoff: So. We are excited about the feedback that we’re getting. We, as you know, we, we stay close to that feedback and we listen well, um, and adjust from it. So we got more work to do, but, um, it’s a great opportunity for, to connect our, our multiple types of partners, software companies, and resellers. [00:08:48] Vince Menzione: Yeah, I agree. [00:08:49] Vince Menzione: And you know, I talk to a lot of these organizations myself, and there is palpable excitement. In the channel from Distees that were sort of disengaged a couple of years ago, maybe, trying to figure out where they were gonna monetize. And the other way area that’s aligned to this as well is the Ms. P community. [00:09:06] Vince Menzione: So these MSPs are getting bigger and bigger, and organizations like Accenture, Avanade, and ndl. Or becoming MSPs or creating Ms. P practices within their own firms. But there’s even these smaller MSPs, but many of ’em are getting to a billion dollars or more. These were little mom and pop companies years ago, but the customer so needs to have, you know, especially with ai, right? [00:09:27] Vince Menzione: Because we’re in a constant state of evolution right now. I need somebody that can help me on the tooling and then also help me on, you know, getting the tooling to work. And so, uh, we’re seeing a lot of excitement from that. Community, which wasn’t really as engaged with Microsoft the way they that they are now. [00:09:43] Vince Menzione: They’re really getting engaged in a big way. [00:09:46] Cyril Belikoff: Yeah, it’s promising. Like you say, you know, the, the, we’re all learning this new AI world and obviously marketplace has taken off. We’ve had the classic SaaS solutions or cloud solutions on marketplace for a while, but really un having the local partner that’s close to the customer, what the customer’s trying to need to do and be able to connect the, the traditional. [00:10:07] Cyril Belikoff: Software as a service applications with these new AI experiences and really, uh, stitch them together and help them operationalize, you know, in their own, you know, cus in their own terms and what they’re trying to, uh, do is so important. You know, um, and to your point there, there are large, they’re the large ones that are seeing opportunity on the marketplace. [00:10:27] Cyril Belikoff: But the, you know, when you get down to, uh, medium and smaller businesses, they really need their local friendly resetter to help them. [00:10:35] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:10:35] Cyril Belikoff: Uh, so you’re right. We are seeing an, a new en energy engagement from not only our existing 500,000 partners, but a bunch of those new ones. [00:10:44] Vince Menzione: So, uh, again, second week of 2026, and people are really just starting to wake up from the holidays. [00:10:50] Vince Menzione: Now they’re getting ready for their s ks. All these partners are lining up and getting their teams aligned. Uh, you’re in front of them. Let’s have a conversation like what should they be doing better and differently? What do they need to go do now? It’s 2026. [00:11:06] Cyril Belikoff: Yeah. Um, you know, first of all, if you’re a software company, you know, understand what the, the Microsoft marketplace can help you with, uh, can help you scale to global markets, remove burdens like tax, um, a processing, engaging with customers. [00:11:21] Cyril Belikoff: Um, we’re seeing an acceleration and doubling of, uh, not an acceleration deals, but doubling of deal sizes, as you know, through the marketplace. Uh, and there. It helps with engagement at different types of companies, whether it’s, or different types of, uh, roles in a company, whether it’s a, a procurement person or an IT person or a business person. [00:11:42] Cyril Belikoff: So, you know, get onto the marketplace, create offerings, um, and give us feedback. And then on the reseller side, um, also lots of opportunities, you know, register as, as a reseller, um, you know, understand the benefits and. The, the Azure sponsorships that we have available for you, that you can close deals with their, their, their credits and, and incentives that we provide to you. [00:12:06] Cyril Belikoff: And then figure out how you do your first deal with a software company. Um, yeah. You know, a lot of people will say like, should I have a big strategy? And Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you want to, that’s okay, but just getting into. Uh, the marketplace, figuring out one or two deals, transacting and seeing the opportunity is many ways the best way to do it and to learn it yourself. [00:12:28] Cyril Belikoff: And then you figure out, okay, where, where’s the opportunity for me in this deal? Am I in the transaction? Uh, am I in the services around the transaction or combination? Um, and just getting your feet wet will get you going and, and, uh, get you learning. [00:12:42] Vince Menzione: You know, I think about this in the, the time the partners are, they have this huge opportunity with Microsoft around marketplace and then thinking about how they build their own ecosystem. [00:12:52] Vince Menzione: And like you said, don’t, don’t try and boil the ocean, right. Don’t try and do it all at once. Mm-hmm. But start out small, but understand, you know, work with the Microsoft teams, understand how, how co-selling works, how to engage with the, with the Microsoft organization. How to, how to be up on marketplace, how to situationally. [00:13:09] Vince Menzione: You know, Jay and I were talking about this 28 moments and he talked about a deal that started out as an AWS deal, but it wound up a Microsoft deal because NTT and Software one were involved in the in the deal and influencing the customer’s decision process. Right working with Microsoft. And so we just need to be smarter, I think. [00:13:28] Vince Menzione: I think today it’s a very different model than it was 20 years ago when you and I got started in this business. Uh, yeah. And people just really need to go think about this more strategically in how they build this. [00:13:39] Cyril Belikoff: It’s great. I totally agree. Um, like I said, getting your feet wet, understanding the co-sell to your point and, and, and how Microsoft sells. [00:13:48] Cyril Belikoff: Um, and then understand what customers are trying to, you know, get, get, get out of it with their, their Azure commitments and how they can retire their Azure commitments through purchases on marketplace, which in sense them, um, to also work on the marketplace. So you, I think partners will find Microsoft sellers. [00:14:04] Cyril Belikoff: Own compensation, um, incentive to work. We’ll find that customers are incentive to transact on the marketplace. And so just enter that, you know, triangle and, and get engaged and, uh, and learn and then give us feedback. Like, like I’ve mentioned many times with you, we, uh, we take feedback every month from customers and partners in, in forums like this, um, in other forums, and then we evolve and, you know, build out, uh, stronger experiences. [00:14:31] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Cyril, I want to thank you again. So great to have you join us today and, uh, so excited to continue our, our mutual relationship and our beneficial relationship in 2026. So thank you again for everything you do and supporting us. [00:14:45] Cyril Belikoff: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Happy New Year to yourself and uh, and your community and, uh, thanks so much again. [00:14:50] Cyril Belikoff: Appreciate it. [00:14:50] Vince Menzione: Thank you, Cyril. The Ultimate Partner Winter Retreat is gonna be here in the Boca Studio. This is the third year that we’re gonna be here in Boca. This is always a favorite of our community members, our executive members, our sponsors and speakers. We’ll all be here in the studio, which is a really intimate setting. [00:15:12] Vince Menzione: We can see upwards of 40, 50 people. Uh, we’ll be hosting an incredible dinner at the Boca Resort overlooking the golf course. That’s an incredible property and, uh, we’d love to have you join us. Thank you for being part of the ultimate Partner community, and I hope to see you this year at one of our events. [00:15:30] Vince Menzione: Thank you.