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“Your beliefs govern your reality.” In this episode, Nick speaks with Damon Cart, an NLP teacher and coach, about the transformative power of self-concept coaching. Damon shares his personal journey through depression, the importance of understanding one’s values, and the pitfalls of self-worth. What to listen for: Understanding your values changes how you approach achievement Self-worth is a flawed concept; it’s better to focus on values instead Taking action is crucial for gaining clarity on what truly matters Failure can lead to unexpected success “It has everything to do with your beliefs… Most people don’t believe they are the value that they’re seeking.” When you don't see your own value, you'll constantly search for it outside yourself Confidence and self-esteem are built internally, not earned through achievements Changing your beliefs about who you are opens the door to the life you actually want “If you’re adamant about being a happy and fulfilled person and you’re willing to work for it, you will get there.” You're never permanently stuck unless you stop moving toward what you want Working on yourself is an investment that pays off in how you experience life Happiness grows when you treat it like a priority, not a side quest About Damon Cart Damon is a world-leading expert in creating lasting internal transformations using the Self-Concept model™. As a master NLP practitioner and co-founder of The Self-Concept Research Group, he transformed his own life from a struggling insurance agent to a globally recognized authority in personal development. Mentored by NLP pioneer Steve Andreas, he has spent nearly eight years helping thousands achieve identity-level change. Based in Santa Cruz, California, Damon combines deep theory with practical application to make transformation effortless and permanent. https://selfconcept.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/damon-cart-aa79b122/ https://www.instagram.com/damoncart Resources: Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Send Nick an email or schedule a time to discuss your podcast today! https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:01.436)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Damon Cart. Damon, how you doing today? Damon Cart (00:11.266)Good. How are you? Nick McGowan (00:12.828)I’m good, man, I’m excited. As I told you, this is the first episode of Brand New Office. So if people watch the video and I’m looking around, it’s other stuff in the office. I’m excited that you’re here, man. We were just shooting the breeze a bit before we got started and I’m excited to get into things. So why don’t you kick us off? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre. Damon Cart (00:23.182)you Damon Cart (00:35.694)Hmm. Well, I teach NLP and I coach it as well. I do one-on-one coaching and not just NLP. I focus on a specific model called the self concept model. And it was a model that was taught to me by my mentor, Steve Andreas. He created it. And it is a model that models our identity, how we create our sense of self and how to transform that. Most people are not living the life that they would want to be living. And that’s rooted in them not being the person they want to be. And we think that we have to go conquer mountains or defeat dragons until we’re worthy of that. And that’s just not true. It has everything to do with your beliefs and how you organize that information into those beliefs and what in fact you believe about yourself. And most people don’t believe they are the value that they’re seeking. And as a result of that, they experience lower self-esteem, lower confidence and overall just lack of fulfillment. And we can transform that and sometimes as simple as one hour session just by transforming beliefs, restructuring that information. So instead of taking years of willpower and discipline and all of those things, it’s really in how you think about it. And there’s an exact organization to that. And once you understand it, then you can change it. And something about me that is, I don’t know if I’m, I don’t know, I feel like I’m a pretty open book about things, about myself. And I don’t know of anything that I would call bizarre. would say something that probably not a lot of people know about me, unless you really know me very well, is that I’m a rather emotional person. And that can be anything. That can be anger. That can be watching a movie and, you know, feeling emotional because of it, because it’s sad or it’s a great love story or something like that. I tend to be very emotional and be The older I’ve gotten, the more comfortable I am with just being emotional and vulnerable in front of people. But I don’t really show that in my videos. In my persona online, it’s just not, I don’t think it’s really relevant. And it’s not that I’m ashamed of it. It’s just, I don’t see the value in doing that. I’m a teacher and it’s for me, it’s about getting the information out there. Nick McGowan (02:51.884)Interesting. I want to go down that path a little bit because I am emotional. If you watched any videos, you can see some of the emotions come out. There are often times I’ll blame, I’m from Philly, so I’ll just blame the Northeast. I’m like, it’s because of Philly. Like, yeah, yeah. And that’s what everybody thinks about Philly people anyway. They’re crazy or they’re loud. It’s like partially, but some of that’s also generational trauma and they don’t really know how to handle it. And Damon Cart (03:03.854)Why not? Nick McGowan (03:16.787)It’s interesting because also as we get older like you can watch a commercial and you get over 40 and you start crying and you’re like I don’t know why like what the fuck was that what a good 12 second clip of something but it’s interesting that you put that to the side when you make your videos and it sounds really conscious like you’re like I’m not gonna allow myself to be not vulnerable but emotional because you don’t want it to block the message is that about right? Damon Cart (03:43.691)You know, got a comment on one of my videos recently and that one of the live streams I did was very academic. And I was like, well, like as opposed to what, how do you, because they’re, and you’ll hear people throw this word around when it comes to NLP teachers. like, this person’s very academic. And to me, that means like more theory-based and not experiential, but NLP is very experiential. So I was just like, well, you know, how do, Nick McGowan (04:03.638)Mm-hmm. Damon Cart (04:09.358)As opposed to what I’m giving you the steps of a process that you have to go and do and experience and he was like no No, not like that. You should put your personality into your videos more and he referenced a podcast and I went and looked at the podcast and it was one of those kind like bro podcasts where It was a young man and he’s you know, kind of putting a little bit of arrogance out there No judgment on him. Like this is what plays this is what sells and So I haven’t responded to the person yet, but on my video, but basically it comes down to this I I don’t see myself as the brand of what I’m doing. The information that I’m getting out there is the star of the show, not me. And there have been times where I put my personal life on there. I’ve done vlogs and things like that. And you will see me get emotional in those. But I’ve never found it to be like why people are coming to my videos. And if my personality overshadows what I’m teaching, which is you see this in like Tony Robbins, you know, and Nick McGowan (04:46.008)Mm. Nick McGowan (05:06.915)Yeah. Damon Cart (05:06.926)Then I feel like I’m not doing my job. I feel like I’ve the message and what I’m teaching is the most important thing, not who I am. I don’t want my, if I get emotional about something, I don’t want that to hijack the video. I want the information I’m teaching to be the thing that people are coming for and that they’re getting it. Nick McGowan (05:20.653)Yeah. Nick McGowan (05:26.553)That makes total sense. And I guess to people that don’t know that, they’re just going to interpret how they’re going to interpret because we are people and we’ll interpret things how we want and make up a story and go, here’s what it is. But that’s a great way to put it. You’re stewarding it. You’re basically just letting it come through you and kind of work through you. Do you feel like some of it is also channeled in that sort of way specifically? Or are you just saying, I’ve learned this information. I want to package it in the right way so you can get the information and Damon Cart (05:38.466)Yeah. Damon Cart (05:41.826)Yes. Nick McGowan (05:56.342)Never mind how I feel about Damon Cart (05:58.735)So definitely yes to the second part, when you say channel, what do mean by channel? Nick McGowan (06:04.412)There are certain people that channel information from a higher level, from God or from the universe or whatever, and they feel that comes through them. It’s almost like how creatives or artists can say, I don’t really know where that came from, but it just came out of me and it was kind of channeled through. And I’ve seen different people and I’ve talked to different people that are like, I don’t let my vessel really, or like the being get in the way because it’s being channeled through. And it sounds like you’re taking more of the conscious approach of like the information is the information. So take the information and me being yelly or emotional about it or whatever is not going to do you a bit of good. Here’s the information. But it also sounds like that person who’s like, I want I want you to be emotional because they probably are, you know. Damon Cart (06:46.668)Yeah, and yeah, so I’ve had those moments on, because I like to do live streams. So yeah, I’ve had those moments where I felt like, yeah, I was just channeling. But majority of it is, I’ve felt this my entire life. If I was struggling to solve a problem and I solve that problem, I know that there are other people who are trying to solve that problem and they’re really frustrated. And I know what that frustration feels like. So I just want to go to them and say, here’s the key or here’s. Here’s the information you need so that you don’t need to struggle with this anymore. And I feel like that’s really my job. My channel started with one of the things I realized very quickly when I was going to like one NLP training after another, especially getting into more and more advanced NLP trainings that I was attending, not teaching, was how many people didn’t actually know basic NLP. And it was like, okay, they’re spending thousands of dollars learning all this. And it is true. Like you just don’t really get a lot of practice in NLP trainings because that would make Nick McGowan (07:34.966)Mm. Damon Cart (07:43.299)the training’s extremely long and that wouldn’t be very competitive in the market. So people aren’t really practicing and then they hand you a certificate and say, now you’re certified. And it’s like that is completely meaningless. You have to go and practice it. And so what I was doing is I was practicing every single day on myself. was practicing, I had a practice group and I would practice with them once a week and had a practice partner who I practiced with once a week. And I was practicing on people and they didn’t even realize it. I was just making the world my NLP classroom. Nick McGowan (07:44.983)Yeah. Damon Cart (08:11.054)So I was understanding NLP rapidly. And a lot of this, was not getting the help of a teacher or a mentor up until I met my mentor, Steve Andreas. And so I started my YouTube channel being that the whole point of it was I’m going to teach people what they should have learned in their NLP training. And actually to this day, when I’m going, when I’m speaking at conferences, actually when I’m shoulder to shoulder speaking with other people who are presenting at these conferences, they will come to me and say, When I was taking my NLP training, I didn’t understand what I was learning and I had to turn to your videos because your videos were the videos that actually taught me what I was supposed to know. And so I get this compliment to this day, which is a huge compliment because that’s exactly what I was set out to do in the beginning. So yeah, I’ve always, the spotlight has always been the information that I’m teaching, not me. Nick McGowan (08:46.155)Nice. Nick McGowan (08:59.383)And it sounds like with everything you’re saying, you’ve just solidified it more and more and more. Like if they were like, you know, it’s a little dry, you would probably open up a little bit in that sort of way. But the fact that you keep getting like, this is what you set out to do and this is what it’s about. That’s awesome, man. And again, I think people are gonna interpret how they want. Like I wanna hear more emotions. Damon Cart (09:17.378)Yeah, and I do share, I’m happy to share like one of the reasons why I’ve had a lot of people come to me for coaching is they would say like, you know, I heard some of what you were saying and it didn’t really speak to me, but when you talked about your depressions or you talked about your divorce and things like that. that is something that I think it helps feed what I’m trying to do here. When I, when I don’t pretend like I’m this perfect person, I think when people are trying to really build a personality brand, that’s what they’re doing. Nick McGowan (09:30.69)yeah. Damon Cart (09:45.133)And there are people who want to follow that. want to believe that there are these sort of like higher than human people that they can follow. I just, that defeats the whole point. So yeah, I want people to know that I’ve worked through problems. I’ve worked through depression. I’ve had a divorce. I’ve had to deal with, you know, trying to maintain relationships with my kids. Nick McGowan (09:45.216)Yeah. Nick McGowan (09:55.851)Yeah. Damon Cart (10:06.222)you know, in these tough times of going through a divorce and moving out of the home, you know. So I do talk about these things because I want people to understand that I’m not just like coming from a place of like, had this all figured out from the beginning. It’s like, what I’m giving you is things that, problems that I’ve solved, things that I had to figure out for myself. that’s how I know that it works. And so now I’m giving it to you. So you don’t have to stay in that frustration. Nick McGowan (10:18.443)haha Nick McGowan (10:31.273)Wait, so there aren’t perfect people on the planet? Like there’s not somebody wandering around? Like all these people on social media? Damon Cart (10:36.426)you would be amazed you would be amazed at how people really buy into that stuff and i just like yeah Nick McGowan (10:41.716)my God, well they want to, you know? Like they really want that. And I can understand like really wanting that, but it’s like self-awareness. Like once you see it, like you can’t not see things. So if you’re like, I want this, why would I want this? Well, you know, and then you kind of work through your stuff. But big thing you’re saying with this is context. Like setting the stage, giving some context to it. Like if you just talked about all these things and you’re like, went through a divorce, but I’m totally good. And like everything’s totally fine. And like everything’s all right. for the people that are out there that would just be like, cool, see, he’s totally good. Like you’re actually hurting those people at that point. And it’s interesting, cause I think there’s a lot of like, there’s a lot of hurt that’s being given out from coaches because they’re not actually working through this stuff that they’re working through. You told me before we even got started, like you were doing the work and kind of almost tripped into this because it made sense to do it when it made sense instead of like where I think 2020 and the whole COVID thing is an easy thing to look back to because a lot of people were like, well, what the fuck do I do now? I guess I become a coach for what? I don’t fucking know. But I guess I’ll do it because I see these other people doing it and like, why the fuck not? And at that point, they’re just like spewing things. I kind of tripped backwards into coaching because I went through a divorce and I had friends that were like, man, you helped me. Can you help a buddy of mine who’s also going through shit? Can you help somebody else? And it’s like Damon Cart (11:46.635)Yeah. Nick McGowan (12:05.334)Yeah, but I need to do so much more work because the more that you learn, the more you understand. Like there’s more to know about it. And likewise, I’m sure with the NLP stuff, like as you started to go into it, I’m sure you got three weeks, three months, three years into it. You’re like, oh my God, there’s so much that I’ve learned from it that you’re then able to turn around. And it sounds like you’ve got a good, I guess mindset, a sense of like, I’m going to help. I want to deliver the information instead of like pushing it upon people. But why don’t we take a little bit of a step back. How the hell did you get here? I know a little bit of the story, but why don’t you share that? Because again, context is important. Damon Cart (12:40.153)Yeah, so I became, well, I had my first depression right after I graduated college and it was, 9-11 happened. It was the first time I was out of school in my entire life. I guess I started going to school like at three and now I’m like 22 and I’m out of school for the first time and just, you know, facing that the rest of your life. Like, what do I do now? Nick McGowan (13:06.409)Yeah. Damon Cart (13:06.734)Yeah, 9-11 happened, which really shook me up because you feel like you’re living, you don’t even question your safety and suddenly something like that happens. And then I got arrested for something really stupid. And it’s really stupid to the point where it’s like, I mean, if you want to get into it, I don’t mind talking about it, but it’s not, I don’t know, I don’t find it that relevant. anyway, those three things happened in one summer. And I just was like, I don’t even feel like walking out my front door. It just feels dangerous. Like, who knows what can happen? Nick McGowan (13:22.1)I’m down. Nick McGowan (13:26.206)Fair enough. Damon Cart (13:35.047)And I gradually just kind of like pulled in more and more and didn’t process the feelings, the negative feelings that I was experiencing. And I just suddenly I realized I’m in a really bad place. And I’ve actually been in this place for months now. And I don’t know how to get myself out of it. And I remembered that I had a professor who taught a class called the philosophy of psychology. And he went through different therapeutic modalities, including hypnosis and gestalt therapy, which NLP is based on. And then at the end, he Nick McGowan (13:57.267)Mm. Damon Cart (14:04.856)pulled out NLP and he said like, this is the mother of them all, because it takes the best of everything that whatever works. And I was just amazed by what this guy could do. And I was, I remember thinking to myself, I got to learn this NLP thing one day. So that was in college and then I was graduated. Now I’m experiencing depression. I don’t have health insurance. I’m a bartender. And so I can’t, I don’t even have the money to hire a therapist. Nick McGowan (14:16.2)Mm. Damon Cart (14:27.502)So I remembered my professor and I called him up and told him what was going on and he said, well, come into my office. He said, I don’t believe in a free service, but I also don’t need your money. So he said, donate your time every time you come to see me to charity or money or whatever. And he’s like, I’m not going to check back with you. I’m just going to trust that you do it. Come back next week and we’ll get to work. I come back next week and in one hour session, months of depression is gone. And I just, my logical mind said, no, no. Nick McGowan (14:45.971)That’s cool. Damon Cart (14:57.056)No, cannot even be possible. But every other part of me was just like, I’m free, like I’m not depressed anymore. And I remember leaving his office and just like I had to stop and sit at a bench on the campus and was just like looking around. like, I walked in there a different person. I walked in there depressed and I’m walking out and there is no depression. just didn’t, it seemed crazy. And so I didn’t get depressed for another 10 years. And when I finally got depressed again, it had nothing to do with what I had gotten depressed with the first time. Nick McGowan (14:58.13)Hehehehe Nick McGowan (15:19.816)Yeah. Damon Cart (15:26.926)But I can say now, knowing NLP, that it was a way that I would think about things. Depression is a process, not like a thing. So, you know, 10 years later, now I’m living in Santa Cruz, California. I have an insurance agency. I’m married and I have two really young kids, like two kids under two years old. And everything is going wrong. And so I slip into a depression again and then even realize it. My wife at the time, ex-wife now, she’s a therapist and she just said, you need help. And I remember Part of me was like well, no, don’t and then I just stopped and I was like, yeah, actually I do I’m not good. And so I found a therapist and this was traditional therapy So I went to traditional psychotherapy and it took me an entire year to come out of depression So we’re talking one session with somebody who knew NLP versus an entire year with someone who’s doing more traditional therapy And when I started to realize even though I was out of that depression I was thinking maybe I can make some progress and some advances here But no, he only knew how to get, this therapist only knew how to get you out of the hole. And then once you were there, then he kind of like kept you there by asking more and more about problems rather than trying to move you to solutions. And I was like, okay, this isn’t working for me anymore. And so I stopped going to see him, but I knew if I didn’t do something different, I was going to end up right back there again. And that’s when I decided it’s time to learn NLP. And there was a training that might still happen here in Santa Cruz where NLP was created up at the university every summer. Nick McGowan (16:31.538)Mm. Damon Cart (16:56.52)And so I went to that training and it just felt like I came home. I was like, this is what I’ve been looking for. And I wasn’t even thinking that I was going to be a teacher or a coach at that point. I was still thinking I’m going to fix my insurance agency and I’m going to fix my marriage and everything’s going to be great. And I just couldn’t stop doing NLP. I would just try to get into a training every chance that I could. Like I mentioned before, I was practicing all the time. And by the time I came back a year later, Nick McGowan (17:00.627)Hmm. Damon Cart (17:22.79)About 75 % of the people who were there the year before returned for the, it was a master practitioner training. And they just kept coming up to me and they were like, why are you so much better than us? And I was like, I don’t know. said, so I started asking them questions and they were like, you we went, we got the same certification you did. So we, you know, we should be at the same level as you. And I was like, did you practice? Have you practiced at all since the last training a year ago? And they were all no. Nick McGowan (17:28.528)Well. Damon Cart (17:51.343)I was like, it’s not a secret. If you don’t practice, you’re not going to get good at it. And that’s why I’m better than you is I’m not, I don’t have any special talents. just practice. And, uh, so, and that’s when people started saying, uh, and then when I go to other NLP trainings, people would be like, well, how long have you been a coach or how long have you been a teacher? And I was like, I’m not, I’m an insurance agent. And they were like, what are you doing here? Cause mostly coaches and you know, teachers go to these trainings. And, uh, so yeah, by that point, after a year had passed, I was like, yes, I’m going to. Nick McGowan (17:53.212)Yeah. Damon Cart (18:20.216)I’m coaching, I’m gonna do teaching. And even still, was more about I wanted to be better at NLP and that was was driving me to wanna do that. So I started just teaching workshops and when that didn’t go very far, that’s when I decided to get on YouTube. A friend of mine actually said, hey, you’ve been to film school, why don’t you try YouTube? And so like, okay, I’ll give that a shot and I did. And yeah, I realized in that whole process that my marriage was not salvageable. was… just, you know, we hit that inroads and it was nothing that was going to make it better. And I also realized that being an insurance agent was making me absolutely miserable and there was no changing that. So it was like, you know, it’s not, I always thought that it was something about me not being good enough. And that’s why I wasn’t succeeding at the insurance business, but it was like, no, it’s just not a good fit. The crazy thing about it, once I realized that, and I realized that it was just going to use the business to keep me afloat until I transferred into this other business. I actually was able to make it successful at that point. was really strange. It’s like when, you know, this thing you’re trying so hard to do and then you finally say, fuck it, I don’t care anymore. Then it, you know, then it was easy. And then it was like, I want to say it easy, but it was, it was working a lot better. And so I was just basically, I moved my office in with another agent. said, can you babysit this while I transition out of this? And he said, yeah, absolutely. And so I was, you know, it took me a few years to kind of figure out this new business. But once I did, I was, I jumped and haven’t looked back since. Nick McGowan (19:20.817)the Yeah. Nick McGowan (19:46.162)I love all that and especially the I mean the real side of it like I joked like yeah You were overnight success took nine years like the amount of stuff that people see that they think like this is Whatever they make it up to be in their own heads and the fact that you were doing the work I mean there are little principles that are through all of this stuff where it’s like You did it in the sense that you just wanted to learn it and you were you even said to me that it was your calling When we feel that and we go in that direction, things will start to get easier, even if it’s the other stuff of like, I need to get this away. And I don’t know the answer to this question, but is it safe to assume that you’re living a better life and more happy life than you did when you had the agency, when you were married, at least to her and like where things are now, is it better? Damon Cart (20:33.742)100 times over. Especially thinking back during the times that I was depressed and I was just like, I guess this is just kind of how life is going to be for the rest of it. And that was depressing to even think about. And that’s what I like to tell people because when I come across someone who’s either depressed or kind of close to that. I want to be respectful. You don’t want to just say, your life is so much better than you. That will make it worse. what I do want to communicate to them is it will get better. It can get better. If you’re adamant about being a happy and fulfilled person and you’re willing to work for it, you will get there. You’re not stuck. This is not how the rest of your life has to be. Nick McGowan (21:02.095)Yeah. Damon Cart (21:25.708)Because yeah, like at this point, it’s like it has exceeded the fulfillment I experienced now has exceeded what I thought was even possible. And still it’s getting more and more fulfilling. So my take on it now is just like, well, how, how good can this get? How deep can I take this? And it’s not like a, it’s not like a greedy thing. It’s more of like a potential thing. What potential do I have to be even more fulfilled and Nick McGowan (21:43.877)Yeah. Damon Cart (21:52.844)more engaged in life and I’m curious to see how far I can take that. Nick McGowan (21:58.124)What a cool aspect of it. Like, well, fuck, let’s see what happens. And like, cool, let’s see how far we can go. And I think to call something out here too, for the people that are listening, isn’t, Damon’s not saying like, well, I was in a shitty spot. I learned this thing and everything worked better. Like that’s just not how life works. Like the amount of work that you had to put in that wasn’t just like curriculum work, but also work on your own. if you… Damon Cart (22:01.698)Yeah. Nick McGowan (22:26.232)If you actually sat back and thought about the amount of hours that you spent just even pondering on it, thinking about it, looking at other people, how they relate to life and what they do. Like you literally enveloped yourself in it instead of saying, well, I really want that. And the reason why I say that is there are people that I hear from the times that are like, man, I’ve tried therapy. I’ve tried this. I’ve tried that. It’s like, great. So what’s next? I’m like, if that didn’t work or if that was a piece of it, like talk therapy, everybody will go into talk therapy and they’re like, This was great and it led me in some direction or it was bullshit and I just yammered to somebody about my problems and they were, they would ask me, how does that make you feel or whatever? It’s like, that’s a part of all of this, but not just the end thing. I think a lot of people do want, they just want that like, what’s the pill that I can swallow and like push all this stuff away instead of trying to break down one barrier to break down another, to break down another, like they’re. There are visuals in my head at times where I’ll climb a mountain only to get to the top of it and go, what the fuck is that? Jeez, it’s another, all right, cool. And you get to a point where you just, you keep trucking along with it. So let’s talk about some of the really tough times where obviously going through a divorce can be a tough time. And for somebody who’s a divorced, it’s one of those things like congratulations or I’m sorry, or a mixture of both, you know? But that can be one of those things that really shapes you in a beautiful way. Like I used to tell people, Damon Cart (23:44.2)All right. Nick McGowan (23:51.65)I didn’t get a divorce to die. I got a divorce so I could live and actually change things. like, I look at life now and think, my God, how did I have that same sort of question that you did of like, well, is this it? I guess this is it. So I guess this is just what life is gonna be like. And it doesn’t have to be that way, but there were still dark times he went through. So were there any that come to mind that you were like, man, that was one of those like super pivotal moments? Like I went through that within my NLP journey and that changed how things shifted. Damon Cart (24:23.212)Yeah, there were a few. When I got a divorce, I was dating for the first time in 15 years. And in my late 30s, that was scary. Things had changed quite a bit. Now there was online dating, and I tried that. And that didn’t go so well, because on these apps, it’s like 70 % men and 30 % women. So the odds are really stacked against you. So I also had my own business, so I wasn’t going to date my employees nor my insurance clients. so I started saying, realizing that I needed, if I saw an attractive woman, I was going to have to go and just talk to her, you know, and that was really difficult to do. And also wanted that choice because I was kept slipping in the relationships, even some of the rebound relationships that I went through, kept slipping in the relationships where the women would turn out to be very passive aggressive and playing a lot of games and really trying to control and manipulate me. And I remember coming to like a choice point thinking, wait, Nick McGowan (25:16.247)Mm. Damon Cart (25:23.126)Is this all women are all women like this or is this just the women I’m attracting? And so I had to be really like honest with myself and I was like, you know what? I’m going to take this on. This is my responsibility. I know that there are good women out there. And so there’s something I’m doing that’s attracting this type of woman. And I want to figure out what that is. And so I just decided I was going to just date and date and date for an entire year. And at the end of that year, if I found someone that I was going to settle down with them. And I did find someone and it was coming up to that year and then the red flag went up and I saw she was doing the same thing. And I was like, oh man, I spent a year doing this and I almost missed it again, almost got slipped into this relationship with this person who was basically going to, it was going to be a rerun of all my relationships. And so was like, I need another year. And so I went another year and I dated a lot. could catch these red flags very quickly. Nick McGowan (26:01.954)Hmm. Damon Cart (26:16.366)And I started realizing that I was putting a certain kind of vulnerability out too early and certain women, was attracting certain women because they thought that they could control me. But once I made it clear that I understood what they were doing, because the last thing a passive aggressive person wants is to be called out. That’s why it’s passive aggressive, right? So I would start calling out what they were doing. They would disappear very quickly. And then I started to develop myself along that way and started attracting much better women. But I do remember like, I was getting to the end of like, Nick McGowan (26:24.066)Yeah. Nick McGowan (26:30.517)Yeah. Damon Cart (26:46.178)I was getting into the third year and I was like, I’m not really finding anyone. was just, I was really getting a bit cynical about it. And I just thought maybe I’m not gonna find someone to share the rest of my life with. And so I quit dating for six months. Like I quit approaching, quit dating. And I was just like, I really needed to focus on my business. Cause that was something that was lacking as well. And I had another big failure in that. Nick McGowan (26:51.243)Hmm. Damon Cart (27:11.756)that I was able to overcome. I was like, you know, less dating, more attention on my business. And that started to work out well for me. And six months later, I had like zero social life. I hadn’t been on a date in, you know, six months. And I was like, OK, I was just finishing up this online training that I had created. I was like, I really need to get out. I need some sunlight. I need some fresh air and I need to see people. And I’m walking down the street downtown here in Santa Cruz. And I just see this really attractive. really young woman and I was trying to talk myself out of talking to her but I was like you know actually no I’m gonna go do this and I just walked up to her and told her I thought you know she was really cute and that I wanted to know her name and possibly go out on a date with her now I’m married to her and you think about those times where you know you almost didn’t do something but you did and then how that changes the trajectory of your life And then that opened a whole new can of worms because she’s from a different country and we got separated by COVID. And she also got her visa taken away. we basically, we eloped in Istanbul, Turkey. The media picked it up and so it was broadcast live in Turkey, our wedding. And then we still couldn’t be together. And so it went on for two more years where the only way we could be together is if I traveled to Romania or we traveled to a country where we could both enter. It was a… Nick McGowan (28:37.42)Mm. Damon Cart (28:38.508)That was another dark time, but with a light at the end of the tunnel. but yeah, that’s, I threw a lot in there all at once. And I also, another dark time was a time that, I, my, business that I have now, had a major failure. And I just thought that was the end of it. All this work that I had done on YouTube for, you a year of doing videos. did a video every single day for eight months straight. And that was a lot of work. And I, that’s how I started to build. Nick McGowan (28:45.366)pain. Damon Cart (29:07.232)my following and then I put out my first training after doing youtube and it just was a spectacular failure and I thought that’s the end of it all this work that I had done and six weeks of I didn’t publish a single video and for six weeks and then suddenly I started getting all these emails and these messages hey we haven’t seen you put a video out in a while we’re worried about you are you sick are you dead let us know you’re okay and I was like you wouldn’t come to my Nick McGowan (29:30.154)Thank What? Yeah. Damon Cart (29:35.235)fucking training and you just want me to keep putting free videos out there. Is that what this is about? So was a little resentful, but then I started making videos again. And then I realized what that was all about. It was, I was promoting a live in-person workshop for a different trainer. And it was like, they, my following didn’t know who he was and didn’t want to see him and didn’t want to show up to a live workshop. They wanted on, they found me on a screen. They wanted me and they wanted me on a screen. And that’s when I realized. Nick McGowan (29:41.654)Yeah. Damon Cart (30:02.734)that they wanted digital products, digital trainings. And so I didn’t know that at the time, but I just thought nobody really wants to know what I have to say and that’s the end of it and it’s time to go move on to a different business. It was quite a relief when I realized the mistakes that I’d made and that actually people did want what I was offering. yeah, so it was a interesting learning curve and very frustrating at the time, but it all ended up being really good. Nick McGowan (30:31.084)So in what was that five minutes seven minutes, maybe you’ve just chunked all this stuff in and I I laugh at times because I think it’s funny how we can we can look in like history books and they’re like from this period to this period like 600 years these three things happened. What the fuck do you mean? Like there were so many other things that happened. You had all these dark times even the six weeks off. I’m sure you still had the body feeling of like why I got to sit down. I could do the video. Wait a minute. And then people come back, be like, are you all right? Are you dead? And be like, what the fuck do you mean? Where have you been? And you’re like… Damon Cart (31:04.15)No, and was so cliche, like whenever that failure happened, had trouble getting out of bed. I stayed in my pajamas most of the day. All the blinds were closed. They had very little light in my apartment. it’s like, because it was so weird. Like, I look back on it now, but it was like, that’s what you would see in a movie because you have to like show, you know, what’s going on inside the character by lighting it the right way and all that. And it was like, that’s what I was actually living through. And I didn’t even realize it at the time, but I was like, yeah, it was a Nick McGowan (31:24.479)Yeah. Damon Cart (31:33.773)It was a dark time and it was literally dark in my home. And that’s the way that it all felt. And finally, I remember just kind of emerging from that. And it was almost like opening the blinds and letting the sunlight in. it was like, you know what, I’m going to pick up my camera. And, yeah, I was just like, you know what? I’m a teacher. This is what I do. So I’m going to put that camera back up and start teaching again. And then eventually shortly thereafter, it led to one of the biggest successes that I had that still creating a training that I’m. Nick McGowan (31:37.685)Yeah. Nick McGowan (31:45.215)Bird singing. Damon Cart (32:02.956)you know, still selling to this day because I put so much effort into it. And, but if it hadn’t been for that failure, I would have never discovered that. And so, you know, it’s how these things often work. Nick McGowan (32:14.994)It’s how life works. Like you have to fail through things. You have to fuck around and find out. You also have to bash your head into the wall, the wrong wall sometimes to go, well, shit, that’s the wrong direction. Let me go back. And you still can learn things from it. I think, I think we can sometimes understand, from an intellectual perspective, like, yes, I get that you need to fail. You need to do this to do that. But then when people get into it can be really, it can be hurtful in a way that isn’t just to the timing that they’re in, but there are so many other things that they haven’t worked through or processed through that it feels like they’re just stacking it on. Like, and now this, and now that, and my God, and now my shoes, and now this. It’s like, you’re just adding things to it. But it can be really easy to do that when you’re in that dark spot. Now, obviously you’ve been through these different things. You’ve fucked around, found out, but you’ve also learned through all this stuff. And I joke with the like, well, here was this short little thing. Like how they even do it in movies. Like all this chaos and craziness happened and like 15 minutes later, it’s like, no, there was a lot of dark times, but there’s still that momentum and that movement. Even if you’re slowing down and you’re resting, you’re still moving in that direction. So the fact that you just didn’t give up, like, let’s be real, man, you had a lot of different times you could have just totally checked out. You could have been like, no, this is too much. I’m not doing it. And now, like, have you thought about that? Like, what have you checked out? You wouldn’t be where you’re at. You wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing. You know, maybe you’re selling insurance again and like, fuck this, I can’t. Damon Cart (33:47.039)And I, you know, when I had that major failure, that’s what I thought. I was like, okay, do I have to go back into insurance? And I was seriously considering that. And, man, it was so painful to just even think about that. what I see with a lot of people, the real difference between people who are living the life that they want to live and really fulfilled by that and experiencing the kind of freedom they want is… They stuck with what they were doing, even if that like evolved, you know, because you try things, they fail, you keep trying new things. And so it evolves, but you’re still sticking with it. And what I would say is, you know, the really important thing is not to be so fixated on how you’re going to get there because I, if I had actually gotten what I wanted the way that I thought I wanted it, it would have been a lot more restrictive. I would have been having to show up, you know, just to keep my money going out, to actually physically show up in many different places and be teaching constantly, which is, you know, that’s what my teachers were doing. So I thought, well, that’s how it’s done. But they hadn’t really tapped into the Internet and YouTube and all that. So now I get the choice if I want to do that. I don’t have to like do that all the time. So I learned enough about, you know, business and everything to make it work the way that I make it work now. But that only came because the way that I thought I was going to do it failed miserably. So had to try to had to find a new way. Nick McGowan (35:06.633)Hmm. Damon Cart (35:08.192)When I think about like, had this weird experience earlier this year, was, so my wife and I, also my wife’s Romanian and we have a home in Romania. So we always go there in January and then we went to Cambodia and then we went to Vietnam. And I remember just like it really hitting me how much I was driven by freedom. And this is another thing that I think is really important to understand is when you, when you focus on values, then you’re not so focused on how you think it has to happen. You become more flexible and you know what. the values are that you’re after. And for a long time, freedom was such an important thing to me. And I remember earlier this year being in Vietnam and just being like, more freedom is not going to make me happier. More freedom is not going to make me more fulfilled. I have really hit that level of freedom that was far more than I expected to ever achieve. I can travel anywhere and go anywhere because I can run my business off of a laptop. And also have a great team of people who I work with who, you know, I don’t have to do everything. Nick McGowan (35:50.761)you Damon Cart (36:07.598)They’re there for that as well. So I have the money I need and I have all the freedom to travel and do whatever. And that was both a victory in that moment that I realized that, but it was also like, okay, so where do I go from here? And it was like a real question for me to sort of contemplate. And that’s, I that might sound a little arrogant, like you achieve all that you want and then you’re kind of like, okay, well, what do I do now? Like that’s a… a first world problem that most people would want to have that don’t even get to that point to have. it’s be prepared for that. Like if you really believe you’re going to be successful and you’re not going to stop until you become successful, be prepared for those moments that you have where you go, wow, OK, I really have it now. What now? And so I thought about all these different things that I could do from that point on. And I was like, well, wait a minute. It’s not about doing something different. I’m so happy with what I’m doing now. I don’t need to do anything different. I just want to do more of what I’m already doing. Nick McGowan (37:05.094)Yeah. Damon Cart (37:05.26)and I don’t need more freedom to do that. And it was a realization of I don’t need to be pursuing freedom so hard anymore because more of it actually can, at this point in my life, would probably be more nihilistic or more escapism. And it’s like, that’s not worth that either because that’s not gonna fulfill me more. So it was an interesting realization to come to that. And it’s like, yeah, okay, freedom doesn’t have to be the main thing here anymore. Nick McGowan (37:22.481)Mm-hmm Nick McGowan (37:33.874)Well, I think we’re also taught in this world with all the systems we have that you have to have a destination. Like think about even being like in high school and they’re like, we, need a five or you need a 10 year plan. That was always so difficult. I remember somebody even years ago was like, well, what’s your five or 10 year plan from now? It’s like, fuck if I know, because anything I come up with is going to be like half-hearted and like what I kind of want right now. But as you’ve moved through things and you do things, you start to see, well, I really want this. I want that. Like freedom is a big thing. I think a lot of people want freedom. I. Damon Cart (37:43.822)Hmm. Hmm. Nick McGowan (38:03.706)I love the freedom that I have. I’m right there with you where it’s like one of those things where you go, well, cool, I have it. Well, that’s cool. But like what’s really fulfilling inside is the thing that actually just drives us and pulls us from basically our chest. So for the people that are on their path towards self mastery and with everything you’ve gone through and especially with NLP, what’s your advice for those folks? Damon Cart (38:26.318)Keep your attention on what’s most important and what’s most important is your values. A value is a generalization about an experience that is important to you. So if happiness is important to you, success is important to you, authenticity is important to you, always keep your eyes on that. And then any goals you set need to be aligned with those values. Most of the time people have no idea what their values are in a particular context and they will be different from context to context. And they just set a goal because they think, okay, like you said, You have to have a destination, right? So here I’m going to set this goal, but they don’t really understand what’s driving the motivation to have that goal. And a lot of times it’s more external values. Well, other people value achieving this, so it must be valuable. Or if I achieve it, then these people will think very highly of me and respect me. Those are, you know, if you’re accomplishing something that does those things, there’s nothing wrong with that. But if that’s why you’re doing it, you’re probably not going to be fulfilled. by accomplishing that. And so a lot of people are chasing goals that are not even fulfilling to them. And whenever they fail at that, because really there’s that inner wisdom that is holding them back, like the inner wisdom that helped me back from succeeding as an insurance agent, because that would have been the golden handcuffs. It would have been really hard to walk away from a very successful business with a lot of money. And I would have probably tolerated that misery. you want to be careful. know, like when you quit at something because you run out of motivation for it. Nick McGowan (39:45.318)Hmm. Damon Cart (39:52.345)Check in with that is that a deeper wisdom that knows better that that’s not really going to fulfill you. But what most people do is they beat themselves up and they say, I should have had more discipline or I should have had more willpower. I’m just not good enough. And they go into this whole self-worth thing, which is not real by the way. It’s something that holds a lot of people back. And then the people who do succeed at it and they get there and they go, wow, this isn’t fulfilling. This feels rather empty. thought it would be great if when I finally Nick McGowan (40:03.791)Yeah. Nick McGowan (40:08.454)the Damon Cart (40:21.39)Achieve this but again, it wasn’t aligned with their values. So no, it’s not going to be fulfilling and Because they feel lost without a goal They set another goal and get back on that treadmill and they do the whole thing over and over again and people come to me for coaching now who are very very successful on paper you would think they would be extremely happy and fulfilled they have all the money they have the family they have the cars the house and everything and they’re coming to me because they feel like imposters or they’re coming to me because they feel so unfulfilled and they can’t understand it because they’ve accomplished everything they’ve ever wanted to accomplish yet they feel so empty inside. And it’s like, yeah, you’re good at accomplishing. The problem was you never really got in touch with what do you truly value? What is really important to you? And so that’s the most important thing is what’s most important to you. And the better you understand that, the more clarity you have around that, the more you’re naturally going to be drawn to that and motivated to do that. The other thing I would say is There is no such thing as self-worth. How this problem comes up is feeling like you’re not good enough, feeling like you deserve it or don’t deserve it. It goes both ways. And so what most people are feeling is a low sense of self-worth. And they feel like if I go and try to achieve something and I fail at it, I will lower my self-worth and I’m already clinging to what little I have. So most of the time people won’t do something and they’ll sit back and say, well, I’m waiting for the right opportunity. what they’re waiting is to feel of higher self-worth so that they feel like they can go do something and if they lose some self-worth, they’ll still be okay. Well, here’s the thing, there is no such thing as self-worth. There is no way to measure your value, which is what worth is. It’s really a metaphor and there’s a lot of problems that happen when we try to apply metaphors literally. And we see this in the Bible. Fundamentalists are people who are trying to apply metaphors in the Bible literally and it causes a lot of problems. So what people do is they have this idea of self-worth. And so they think, well, how do I measure my worth? Well, first of all, there’s no way to do it. There’s no objective scale or person who can be objective and measure people’s worth. So what do we do? We compare ourselves to others and that will destroy you every time. If you compare yourself to others to make yourself feel better about yourself because you think they’re less than you. Now you’re engaging in the superiority that’s going to bring you down. And if you play that game, you can’t only play it in one direction. Damon Cart (42:45.87)when you encounter someone you think is of higher worth than you, now you’re gonna feel bad about yourself. The whole thing, you can kill the whole thing just by stop comparing yourself to others. Now this idea of self-worth, it usually comes about very early in life and we just pile more and more beliefs on top of that whole idea. So the two things that I would recommend is get clear and clear about your values, basically what’s important to you. What does that actually look like to you? And you’re not going have it all figured out. And you’re definitely not going to figure it out all out on paper. You need to take action. And action is the best way to get that clarity, experience. And then the other thing is to dismantle the whole concept of self-worth entirely. When you do that, when you do those two things together, you’re just on the path to living a very fulfilling life, a life of being who you want to be and therefore creating the life you want to live. Nick McGowan (43:38.213)That’s awesome. And I think a lot of people can anchor into like the understanding of action and motivation too. Like you have to take action to be motivated, continue to do the thing. It’s likewise with what you’re saying where you have to take those actions, but you have to understand why you’re doing those things. And it is interesting how a lot of people don’t know what their principles are or they are somebody else’s principles. Like, well, my wife and I, or my partner and I, or my family and I, have these principles. Like, well, where did those come from? Well, you know, they just kind of came up and like, we don’t really think about that or don’t think about it throughout their day to day life of like, well, how do I move about this? And why do I want to do such a thing? I’m really glad that you touched on those two things, man. It’s been great having you on. So I appreciate your time. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? Damon Cart (44:27.852)Yeah, the easiest place is my YouTube channel. It’s just Damon Cart, Damon Cart NLP. And we’ve got a lot of videos been doing this for quite a while, almost 10 years. So that’s, you’ll find not only my videos, but in my videos, I give a lot of free resources so that you can get started usually on the topic that I’m giving you or the solution to a problem. You can access like free PDFs and things like that. so also I have my website is selfconcept.com. Like I said, I do general NLP, but I also really focus on this one model because your beliefs about yourself determine your beliefs about everything else, you the world around you. And if you haven’t realized already, it’s your beliefs that govern your reality. So what you believe is possible, what you believe is true. lot of, most of our beliefs are deeply unconscious. So when you can understand what the beliefs are, especially the deeply unconscious ones about who you are, when you understand what those are, you understand their limitations and then you transform them so they don’t have those limitations. Then you become that person you value. Your self-esteem goes up, your confidence goes up and you naturally gravitate toward creating that life that you want to live that’s reflective of the value that you are. Nick McGowan (45:45.38)So wait, you putting worth to that? No, I’m just kidding. I’m only kidding. Awesome, man. Well, again, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being with us today. Damon Cart (45:48.052)It’s different, worse than the measurement. Damon Cart (45:55.246)Thank you for having me on.

Struggles with Self-Worth: Rosalie's Journey from Abuse to Healing Through Faith In this episode host Diana welcomes Rosalie Janelle, host of 'The Good News' podcast, to share her powerful survivor story. Rosalie opens up about her journey from an abusive relationship to finding faith and beginning her healing process through therapy and a closer relationship with God. The discussion covers Rosalie's background, the signs of abuse, the harrowing experiences she endured, and how she was ultimately saved, both physically and spiritually. This episode aims to provide hope and encouragement to those in abusive situations, emphasizing the importance of faith, support systems, and professional help. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:26 Introducing Today's Guest: Rosalie Janelle 02:31 Rosalie's Background and Upbringing 04:42 College Years and Faith Struggles 07:21 Entering an Abusive Relationship 09:40 Escalation of Abuse 18:16 Struggles with Self-Worth and Infidelity 19:40 A Violent Turning Point 23:39 Realization and Rock Bottom 24:27 The Violent Incident 26:10 Aftermath and Legal Proceedings 26:56 Spiritual Awakening 30:39 Healing Journey 35:19 Therapy and EMDR 40:30 Advice for Those in Abusive Situations 43:31 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Website: www.thegoodnewspodcast.org Email: genaor@gmail.com Social media links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Rosellygenao Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zealouzlysweet/ My podcast: The Good News Podcast www.thegoodnewspodcast.org Available on Anchor, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Google Podcasts, Pocket Cast, Radio Public Bio: Roselly Genao is a podcast host, spiritual coach and an operations supervisor in the emergency services industry. Roselly has been serving God faithfully since November 2019, shortly after she survived a traumatic attack on her life. Roselly's affinity is drawing people nearer to Christ through encouragement and inspiration. She currently is the host of The Good News Podcast and is a certified emotional first aide provider. With these means she helps bring people closer to God daily in conjunction with serving God.   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/ [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello everyone. How are you doing ? I'm glad you joined me today on my podcast. We have a survivor story today. I think you'll be really blessed by her story. Rosalie. Janelle is on the show today. And I hope that you'll listen closely to what she has to share with you. She's the host of the Good News podcast. She's going to bring a raw and honest story of how she got into an abusive relationship and how she got out, how she found the Lord, and how she has started her healing journey. So without [00:02:00] further ado, here's Rosalie. Welcome, Rosalie Janelle to the show. Thank you so much for coming on. No problem. I'm happy to be here. Diana, thank you for inviting me on. Now the tables are turned , you're in the guest chair today? Yes. My first time too, so I'm not used to it. I was just on her podcast, the Good News podcast. Mm-hmm. And uh, that's what podcasters do. We go on each other's shows. Yes. Amen. Absolutely. I'm happy to be here. So tell the audience a little bit about your fine self. Yes, absolutely. So as Diana mentioned, my name is Rosalie Genow. I go by Rose, by trade. I'm a manager of an operation center. And, by night I'm a podcast host of the Good News podcast and, full-time. I'm a believer for Jesus. I love, spreading the gospel, talking to others about the gospel, and what he has done in my life. So that's why I'm here. Awesome. So let's start from the [00:03:00] beginning. What was your family upbringing like? Were you raised in a Christian home? Oh, this question from the beginning. I wasn't, I was raised in a Catholic home. And I say that very loosely because my parents weren't practicing when I was growing up. They mostly like practice, up until the point I was born. And then I got baptized as a baby into the Catholic. Church. But I still went to Catholic school, so we weren't practicing at home, but I went to Catholic school, so that kind of shaped, you know, gave me a little bit of foundation as I was growing up. But weirdly enough, I still, I didn't know God and not when I was younger. So what was, your home like growing up? I mean, it was typical. I don't think that it was, abnormal. I had both my parents, I have, I'm one of three, I have two siblings and I. I don't know. I don't, I wouldn't say it was atypical. It was a loving home. I was involved in a lot of extracurricular activities growing up in [00:04:00] school. I was, involved in, pretty much every group that you could think of. I was a good academic kid. My siblings, they did, have their children, a little on the younger side, so. Towards like my teenage years, I was growing up in the home alone. 'Cause my siblings moved out and started their families. And at that point in time when I was a teenager, I was a little bit of a, I was trouble, I was definitely trouble. I was not making great decisions. I started dating really young. Oh gosh. Probably younger than I should have. And, I think that really started, in my early college years, I really started to make some pretty bad decisions. So it started in my teenage years. So when you went off to college, you said that you had a collapse of your faith. What was your relationship with God like then in your life? Yeah, when I got to college, I wasn't really practicing any kind of religion or [00:05:00] even praying to God. My life was, like I said, I started a tr a path on my life where I was making da bad decisions almost daily. Now looking back, I think it was, the lack of having a relationship with God. But I would say that in the beginning of my college career, I had no relationship with God. I actually was very confused, because I had graduated from a Catholic, high school, and then I went to a Catholic university and I was seeking answers. So I was going to the Catholic mass, almost weekly, but it was kind of like just going through the motions of my, that was in the first year of my, of. The first semester of college and then I went to a girlfriend's church. And it was a non-denominational Christian Church, probably second semester of freshman year. And, that kind of started to change my perspective. On, God and who he was and who Jesus is because, it was so different than the Catholic church. So, mm-hmm. It sparked us an interest, but I would [00:06:00] say not enough for me to do anything about it. Not at the time. Yeah. I can relate. I was raised Catholic. I know it means to go through the motions on the outside and nothing happening on the inside really. So you mentioned you made some bad choices in life. Why do you think that happened? I mean, for me at the time there was definitely, I was definitely going through a lot of stuff, just on the inside because I didn't have any kind of foundation. I didn't have any, belief and a higher power at that point in time. So I kind of saw life for what it was. It felt worthless, it felt like, so I made some pretty bad choices based off that root feeling of just feeling like, you know, there was no purpose for life. And I actually fell into depression. And during college, I was mixed up in bad relationships, through college. And then ultimately I ended up dropping out of college because. I was just making horrible decisions. I was partying all night and all of those things stemmed from the fact that I [00:07:00] viewed life as purposeless and therefore I didn't give myself enough self-worth. Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. So it sounds like you were prime target for an abusive relationship that you got into. Would you be able to talk about that? Were there any red flags beforehand? Yeah. So, let's backtrack a little bit. Mm-hmm. So, after college, I actually, was with, a man who was semi abusive. Like we, we had really toxic, arguments. There was a once or twice where there was, physical fights between him and I. And ultimately when I left college, I walked away from that, you know? Mm-hmm. And I left college and I had to move back to Massachusetts. So I went to Seton Hall in New Jersey. And obviously after dropping out and not being able to afford living in New Jersey by myself, I was 20. I had to come back home to Massachusetts. And so when I did come back home to Massachusetts, I kinda just walked away from that relationship in college and I thought that, I didn't [00:08:00] think anything of it, I didn't see that it was an abusive relationship, my college relationship. I didn't think that it was anything outside of the normal. I thought I was like, oh, I'm 20 and I'm passionate. Fast forward probably. Let's see, I don't know how old I was , let's go back, let's go to 2016. Fast forward 2016. I dropped outta college in 2014 and I met a guy. He was actually a friend of a friend, so I met him through my friend and one of my closest girlfriends, honestly. And, and he came highly recommended. She thought she knew him. So she was like, yeah, you should give him a try. You know how to try going out with him, he seems like a good person. And so I did, to your question, and this is like late 2016, we started dating and within the first three months there were certainly red flags. I didn't see them then. Mm-hmm. Or maybe I did and I chose not to, but there was certainly a lot of, things that he didn't like about me. That [00:09:00] he ma he was vocal about from the very start, he, did not accept me for who I was. I come from a really small town, in Massachusetts. That's. Pretty ghetto. And he, often used to refer me to me as like a statistic of that same, city because a lot of people don't, they don't make it out of that city with a college degree or anything like that. And I had dropped out and so he used that, that oh, education target on my back, like to really make me feel bad. And that was only in the first three months. So there was definitely red flags. Did I listen? No. Yeah, I was guilty of ignoring red flags in my abusive relationship too. The relationship progresses, so when did you know the real abuse start? Mm-hmm. What kind of abuses did you endure? Yeah, like I said from the beginning, I feel like even three months in, even though, he wasn't physically, or even at that point, maybe emotionally abusive, but he [00:10:00] was definitely verbally abusive in the way he spoke to me. So I would say as early as those, it took me a really long time to actually understand that was abuse too. So as early as three months in, he was degrading me with words. And oftentimes, I would cry myself to sleep because I didn't know, I believed what he was saying, because I had, such a low self-esteem, such a self, a low self-worth. I believed everything that he said because I was like, well, it must be true. It's silly. But, i'm sorry, I kind of backtracked very common thought process that we deserve being treated this way. That's very common. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But one thing led to another and, eventually the relationship became, emotionally abusive. Like he was very manipulative. He wanted to kind of just. Make every decision for me. And I didn't know he was doing it. He would do it. He was very persuasive. He was very charming. And I actually, when I started [00:11:00] dating him, I started my walk with God. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know that he would be the one thing to deter it because I thought he was a Christian. I thought that he was in the church too. So we would go to church together. Oh, we had the whole deal together. Like it was just a front, and because I was like, oh, well he's, you know, obviously, I didn't marry him, but I also, the fact that I grew up in a Dominican household also played a part to it. I'm sorry if I'm jumping all over the place. No, you're fine. But, yeah, it played a role into the way I viewed men in my life because I thought that they always needed to be the, I'm Dominican, that culture's very, you know, the man is the head of the household, very machista, very, they gotta be the strong leader. And, so because I grew up in that setting, or with those examples, I would say. Not setting because my father was very different. But I saw that all around in the rest of my family. I definitely felt like I needed to have that in my life and I needed to follow [00:12:00] his lead, even though the lead was horrible. And so, I was like, all right, he's leading me anyways. We're going to church together. We're strengthening our faith together. This can't be that bad. That's what I used to tell myself. And there was a couple times that our verbal arguments got physical where he would pin me down. At times he would push me. It was a number of things. I tell myself all the time, I'm not even sure that I remember every single incident because there were so many at this point. And so ultimately. Towards the end of the relationship, he tried to kill me and oh, that's when I had to leave. Well, I didn't have an option. So it, it was a lot of physical, I'm sorry, a lot of verbal. And then ultimately physical abuse. So he was definitely faking it with the church stuff. And yeah, I mean, I don't, I didn't, I don't know. I would say definitely faking it, but also probably struggling on his own, and you mentioned your [00:13:00] background, but. I didn't even have that background of being Dominican or Spanish, but that seems to be a prevalent mindset in American culture, that the man is in charge and you're supposed to do what you're told and put up with it. Yeah, and that's why we don't fight back is because of the society that we are raised in, and then some of us have. An empathetic personality that results in wanting us to help people or maybe fix people. Was that true with you? Oh yeah. Absolutely. Especially by nature. I'm just like a, I'm a helper by nature. I want to help improve anything. I'm a manager, that's what I do. So I, with, when it came to my ex there was, he definitely had some, things internally going on that I thought. I was the answer to that I thought that I could help him with. There was definitely some anger stuff, and some unresolved trauma, so I was like, well. I'm pretty good at this stuff because I didn't, [00:14:00] at that point in my life, I hadn't really gone through much trauma. But I worked in the behavioral health field, so I'm like, I can help, I also love him so I can help. Mm-hmm. So each time that we had an issue I would focus on fixing either myself or trying to plead with him, see my side if I really thought that I was true, but oftentimes I was trying to fix him or I to be. Perfect for each other. For lack of better words. And you mentioned the word love. You loved him. What was your definition of love then? Yes. Well, I definitely, certainly did not know what love was then. Because, and I will say like it has a direct co correlation with the fact that I didn't know Jesus yet. Because I don't truly believe you can experience love without knowing Jesus. My definition of love back then was very, temporal. It was very, I don't even know what's the best word to explain it, but it was shallow. It was just based off of [00:15:00] appearances and what, what you can do for me and what I can do for you type of love. So not at all anything like what the love of God offers us. And I can say that now. I definitely know that I didn't know Jesus then. So I didn't know how to love or be properly loved. You were how old again? Whew. I didn't think about that. Let's see. Early in the twenties, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was 20, 24, 25, 24 when I started dating him. And then 20, oh gosh, I don't know. Yeah, I'm 27 now, so that was two years ago. So I was about like 22 to 26 when I was dating him, or 25. I think all the young people, including myself, when I was in my twenties, I was very gullible and innocent and trusting and yeah, I didn't know what love was and my mother made it very clear that, oh, well you don't, you have no clue what love is [00:16:00] and no mom, I, maybe I don't, but I'm gonna find out. And. You learn as you get older. You learn by experience. You learn when you meet Jesus, you learn how he loved us and how we are to love others. So, don't be too hard on yourself. Right? Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I hear you. Yeah. No, my mom said the same thing growing up. You don't know. I love is, I think we often hear that and we don't actually understand what it is until we either lack, real love or we experience it for the first time. Yeah, because our parents, they see the people that we date and they're like, oh no, not for my kid. That's not a good choice for you, but we don't listen. Yeah. It actually, it's so funny you mentioned that it actually was different with my ex in that accord because my entire family actually loved him. Really? My entire family actually. Did not. Well, for two reasons. I was never vocal about the abuse. I never actually told everybody the real [00:17:00] truth about what was going on behind closed doors. So that was the first thing. And like I said earlier, he was charming. He would, he was persuasive. He got along with just about everybody. And when I tell you, like most of my family, I'm probably to this day, they still say the same thing. They said, we were shocked. We were surprised 'cause they did not see it coming. Well. Mm-hmm. I think my dad and my stepmother didn't really know the extent of the abuse. They saw some things. And they didn't like him, but they would never interfere out of respect for me. My mother and my sister were a little more vocal about, I don't like him. He, he pushes you around, he bosses you around. He's, he is arrogant and he is rude and. All those things, but mm-hmm. No, I didn't, I didn't listen. So at this point in your relationship you suffered a lot up to this point. Mm-hmm. Would you say that you were an angel at that time? No, I [00:18:00] definitely would not say that. And, before it was really difficult for me to explain this portion of my story because I couldn't do it without guilt or shame because that's what the enemy tries to, ki tries to keep us in shame and secrecy. Mm-hmm. But I mean, in my relationship with my ex, I have, I, I became unfaithful and little. Did I know then because I didn't understand then why I was seeking other men, and I was see, , seeking attention from other guys. It all ties to, for me, it all ties to the fact that I, I had a really low self-esteem and my self-worth was probably on the ground again. I didn't know God, I didn't really have a relationship with him. I, like I was saying I was going to church, but I was just going through the motions 'cause it's what I used to do and I was going to a Christian Church at this time. But it's just based on the foundation that I had from growing up in that Catholic church and I was, I just knew to go through the motions. I didn't really understand that I needed [00:19:00] to practice a relationship with God. So even though I was going to church while I was in this relationship, I didn't know God enough to know the love that he had for me and therefore make better decisions. So I saw other men, I saw, attention from particularly this one other guy, and I got really involved with him while I was with my ex. And ultimately the, that was something that made the abuse worse. Mm-hmm. Because my ex found out about it, and he, there was two occasions where on one occasion, the first time that he found out about the other guy, it was, oh, it was tough. He dragged me outta my bed. I was sleeping and he, Ooh. Just woke me up and dragged me outta the bed because he saw the text messages from the other guy. And I remember in that morning, so me and my ex used to live with a roommate at that time. And I remember in that morning, my, [00:20:00] our roommate, our third roommate, she was at her boyfriend's house. Mm-hmm. So I, but I completely forgot. And when. He dragged me outta bed and I saw how violent he was about to get with me. He had pinned me down to the ground. I started to yell. I started to, well, I tried to start to yell her name out. And then a, like a voice was like, no one's here. In my head, oh, and I felt so abandoned, Diana. Oh, I felt so alone. I was like, oh my goodness, I'm alone. No one's going to know what happened to me if this man does something to me today. And so, the rest of that day was. Horrifying. He got, he was violent, but then also he was violent towards himself. He tried to he tried to hold me hostage by basically selling. Me that he was gonna kill himself. He took a, a knife and mm-hmm. And we were in the kitchen for over an hour [00:21:00] and I was trying to try and deescalate the situation. I must have called his, well his family's not, wasn't in Massachusetts at the time. So they were far. So I, I must have called his sister, his cousin, like everybody trying to get them on the phone too, just. Reason with him. 'cause he wouldn't reason with me at that point in time. And he was also scared. He was scared that he knew, like he had, abused me before and that I was kind of at that breaking point, he's like, I think you're gonna turn me in because it got so bad. And I. At the end of the day, his brother who lived at State over got there. He probably drove down like an hour, which is unheard of. Mm-hmm. And. He deescalated the situation he got, he got him out of the house. He moved everything out that day. So I left to my sister's house so that he can get everything out. And I ultimately went to the police station. I got a restraining order that [00:22:00] day, but that wasn't the end, a for me, I couldn't. I don't know. My definition of love was messed up back then, so I thought that I was still in love with him. So it wasn't even like four days or five days later that I went back to the courthouse and I dropped a restraining order so that I could be with him again, because I thought that, it was a mistake and he was, and I was guilt, I was feeling so guilty because of my my unfaithfulness. So I was like, I felt like I hurt him. I didn't even, I disregarded all the, everything that he did to me. And I just was like, well, I hurt him. I have to go back and help him and want to tend to his feelings. 'cause, he felt betrayed and not loved by me at the time. So. It just blows my mind. It just yeah. That you would go back to fix his problems. Which I think, and I'm sure you agree with me, this just makes it worse. [00:23:00] You going back after all of that. Because you felt guilty, which was misplaced guilt. Okay. That's, it's great that you acknowledged that you made a mistake, but, that doesn't cancel out his abusive behavior. Absolutely. And I thought it did. That's it. I love the word that you used, canceled. For me, that's what I thought it was like, all right, well I did this. So he did that. And, and of course, like I said, going back to what I said earlier, I believed all the things that he told me about me. Mm-hmm. I believed that I, that's what I deserved. And so I didn't see it as, I didn't view it as an issue or a problem. Now, when did you finally come to your senses and say, I've had enough. I'm at rock bottom. I've got to get out of this relationship. I mean, for good. Yeah. It didn't come by my own, choice. And I say that because a lot of people think that, you always just get to walk out of a [00:24:00] abusive a relationship or you just choose to go, and that's not the case. I went back to him and ultimately we had a lot of issues up until the last time that I saw him. And I was still being unfaithful. I was still seeking attention from other men. And so again, at this point, he's not trusting of me. He's still looking through my phone. He's following me at this point to everywhere that I go. And, on the last. Occasion, we went to a party and we went back to his house after the party and we were both drunk. And he went through my phone and he saw a text message from the other guy. And basically that's when he, that's the night that he tried to kill me. He, it was the most violent he had been with me, throwing me around the room, really just using me. As a punching bag. Mm-hmm. And, up until the point where he tried to strangle me and I don't really know how I got out of the str out of his choke [00:25:00] hold. But I did. And then ultimately I ran outside after that and the neighbors were there and the neighbors, they didn't even want to get involved. We lived in an apartment building in a three story apartment building, and I didn't knock on anybody's door because I was afraid. I just didn't know what to do. He took my phone, well he threw my phone out the window. It was just a bad situation, you know? And I was just trying to run out of the building. And when I was trying to run out of the building, there was neighbors coming inside the building. Mm-hmm. And they saw both of us. They saw that his shirt was ripped, they saw me, I had blood, I had, I was probably looking all crazy. Wow. And they. Like, well, we don't really wanna get involved in this. This seems like a, I don't know, I don't even know the words that they use. But instead of calling the police they asked him, they got involved. They said, oh, can you just give her phone back? That's basically what they told him. And I'm like, no, I need you guys to call 9 1 1 because he tried to kill me. He's not going to call [00:26:00] 9 1 1. And so ultimately after some push and pull, whatever. They gave me their phone. I called nine one one. And the ambulance showed up. The police showed up and they detained him. And so back to the question that you asked, when did I choose to leave? Or when did I have enough after this incident? The fact that the Lord delivered me from death because mm-hmm. I don't know how I got out of his choke. He was much stronger than me. He went, we went to through the court, he went to jail. We did all of that. I didn't really have a choice. The relationship had to be over at that point. Mm-hmm. It didn't feel like that for me. Even for months after that. It didn't feel like I, I wanted to leave. And that's the crazy part. That's the part that I was so deep into his manipulation, into his tricks, that even at that point, I felt like I still owed him something. It wasn't until maybe about six [00:27:00] months later that I gave, when I truly gave my life to Christ that I knew. That everything that I had felt about guilt and everything that he had done to me, that it was all wrong. It was so wrong. And I, that's when I knew, but it, it didn't happen immediately. Even I was at the point of death and in the hospital waking up all that. It wasn't the point where I said I had enough. I didn't have a choice at that point to be with him because of the situation, but I would say when I found Jesus was when I really knew that. I deserve so much more. It sounds like you had a lot of codependency going on there. Mm-hmm. And that is a real stronghold. That's almost like brainwashing from a cult. Mm-hmm. If somebody trying to kill you and you're in the hospital and you don't think that, well, I need to get out of this relationship. And everybody would talk to me and everybody would ask me like, what do you wanna [00:28:00] do? I had to sit through court proceedings where he was present and. I was going, I've always been a person who has like, pretty strong morale, even though I didn't mm-hmm. Like I said, like I grew up knowing right from wrong. Mm-hmm. And I knew at the time that the right thing to do was to continue going to court, cooperate so that he would be sentenced and everything go through the trial so that he wouldn't do this to other women. Mm-hmm. I knew that was the right thing to do. I didn't wanna do it though. I didn't wanna be a part of that. I didn't wanna be a part of something that could con particularly like, follow him around for the rest of his life. It was really sick in the beginning. But ultimately I did the right thing, and I look back and I know that it was the correct thing. Because you just have to do it because you just never know if somebody like that is gonna change. You can pray. But you don't know and you [00:29:00] don't want anyone else to fall into that trap. Just looking back at your story, it looks like the Lord intervened in your life. Maybe that was an angel that he sent to get you outta that choke hold. Maybe it was him that put your abuser in jail so you could get out. Did you have anybody else that was on your side or anybody else who helped you? Absolutely. When my family, became aware of what happened because I called them that night and, everybody showed up at the hospital. My mom was there, my aunt, my sister, they all came to the hospital. They just didn't know. They didn't, my sister had guessed a couple things 'cause she had seen him follow me. She had noticed him in the last month or two before that. So she had known something was up, but she didn't know that it was this bad. And, so she was right there. They all of them were right there, but had they known, they, I think they would've been there, before and they would've tried to get me out before. But like I [00:30:00] said, because of my own doing and my own wishes of wanting to be there, I just stayed. I. Without telling them. But my family was, they were really supportive after and during the court and the trials and everything, they were very supportive. And there was one person in particular who was probably key in getting me to go back to the church. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, I consider him an older brother and he, I grew up with around him and he had a church. He has a church in Massachusetts. Well. He goes to a church in Massachusetts and he always invited me. And so, that really was what helped me turn my life around at that point. So tell us how you, found the Lord Jesus as your savior For real now? Yeah. Yeah, for real. And I always tell people, I'm like, I think I got saved in thousand 15, but, and I used to say that before, but now I know that, he really saved me in 2019, not only because of what he delivered me from, but because I knew, I felt it. I [00:31:00] felt his love. I felt. Everything I felt redeemed. So I would say like June of 2019, I, which was only about six months after the incident and I. Was after, after the incident, I was going to church still. I was, like I said, I, there was not really a period of time that I wasn't going to church. I was always going to church, but it was always a through the motions kind of deal, and I never really prayed and I never really, I didn't even read the word I, the only word that I got was on Sundays. And mm-hmm. Then ultimately on, in June of 2019, I said. Something's gotta change because I knew mm-hmm. That everything that I had experienced up until that point and all of my feelings of like still wanting to be with my ex even after everything were, so, they were, they came from a place, an evil place, right? Because I just knew that the Lord wouldn't send me back to that type of relationship. So I. [00:32:00] I started being intentional. I started just like saying, okay, God. I would sit with him in the morning and just say, God, I need you to show me why I'm here. And I kept on asking that question, why I am here and why I'm here. And he didn't answer that question. He answered a DA different question that I didn't even know that I had in my heart. He answered like the questions about. My feeling, my not feeling abandoned. Sorry, how do I say this? He answered my questions about me. Being loved by him. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know I had those questions because I was just like, well, I just, I'm a fixer by nature, so I just wanted to fix all the, I was like, I need my pur, I need my purpose and I need to walk into it. That's it. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. And I was like, I need to learn how to do this. But by spending time with him daily. And really just getting into his word and learning his character, I learned his love. I learned that he loved me beyond every single thing that I had done. And I was able to walk out of the shame and [00:33:00] fear and guilt that I had wa I had walked in for so long because I, at that point I felt like I had made too many. Bad decisions, too many, just things that I was ashamed of. But when I was spending that time with him, he was like, I don't care about all that. He's like, I love you the way you are. I made you and I'm going to love you no matter what. And slowly but surely, he started to reveal his character to me. He started to reveal my purpose on this earth. And that's when I say that, I really got saved, but there was no like, aha moment. There was no, none of that. It was just like I, I had to start being intentional about it. I had to, if I wanted to see a change, I knew that something different, I had to do something different. Yeah. The Lord's been pursuing you your whole life. He was just waiting for you to Absolutely. Turn around and see him. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So I say that healing is always a journey. There is no I've arrived [00:34:00] or I'm healed a hundred percent. It's a journey throughout our life. How did you start the healing process and what steps did you take besides church? I mean, I really changed my decisions. In my social life I reduced the amount that I was drinking. I used to drink a lot of alcohol that mm-hmm. I remember there was times that I drank alcohol to the point of blackout. So I reduced the amount of drinking I was doing. I reduced I increased the amount of times that I was in church a week. I was in church twice or three times a week rather than just on Sundays. And then. I told my family, I'm making a decision to make church a priority in my life. God, the priority, not just not the church, God, a priority in my life. So ev everything that did not serve that purpose, I tried to just remove out of it. I was in a job that I was unhappy, so I left it. I pursued a job that was. Quiet it, it just allowed me to take a step back from management. It wasn't in the limelight. I [00:35:00] didn't have a lot of pressure, so I could spend a lot of time with God. And then most important, next to God, I took, I started therapy. I did therapy. Mm-hmm. And I did a trauma specific therapy. I did EMDR and I. But that's the second thing next to Jesus that changed my life. So explain what is EMDR for those that don't know what that is? Yeah, I haven't had to explain this in a while, but I'll try my best. It's called, lemme see if I can get this right. It's called eye movement. Desensitizing reprocessing, I think it is. Yes. And it's a yes. I tried. And it's a type of therapy that specifics on specifies on like if you have had childhood trauma or any kind of trauma really, and you use physical movements like tapping or eye movements to walk you through the memories and reprocess those memories and desensitize them. The emotions that are attached to it. So I [00:36:00] did that with the entire experience that I went through with my ex up until the point where he tried to kill me. And a lot of stuff was brought up during that during that year that I did therapy. It was very intense. It was hard work. It is hard, but I believed the Lord. For bringing me to that therapist because it was a very godsend, like it was a referral. And I knew that if I saw it through that on the other side, I was gonna come out the person that the Lord wanted me to come out. And that's exactly what happened. So I tell the listeners that are, there are many different tools for healing. Not everybody chooses the same tool. It's whatever's. Helpful for them and their situation. So you thought that therapist and that technique was really helpful for you, it sounds like. Yeah, because something that I noticed like I said, a lot of. Yes. I wasn't an abusive relationship, but there was some decision making in [00:37:00] my past choices that obviously weren't rooted out of that abusive relationship that came out of a different place. And I had done talk that I, I mentioned I was depressed in 2014 and when, mm-hmm. When I left college, I had. Done talk therapy. I had done all of that and it didn't work. CBT kind of stuff. And so I was like, I need something that's gonna be specific. Look at me just being a fixer and a planner, right? I was like, I need something that's gonna be specific and it's going to target this trauma that I just went through and help me come out a better person. And EMDR is truly if you are, that, if you're looking for results, that's what. You'll get if you apply yourself. I like what you said about there were issues that you had that were not related to the abuse. A lot of people, they wanna ignore those things and blame. Mm-hmm. Everything on the abuse. Well, we are complex creatures, aren't we? Absolutely. Oh. It's not always black and white, cut and dry. There are, aspects [00:38:00] of our personalities, our upbringing that are separate from the abuse that also need to be. Dealt with and healed. Yeah, too. So I'm glad you mentioned that 'cause that is important. But you're admitting that yes, you found the Lord and you're on your journey of healing, but it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows. There were some struggles and that we are going to struggle. Absolutely. Or we just keep going forward, right? Absolutely. It was not a, walk in the park after I made that decision. And especially for me, who was somebody who was battling, I was battling, just sexual temptation, lust desiring to just be in the world, drink alcohol, those things, those were not easy decisions to make. But. I had the strength of the Lord because I was with him and he was with me. Amen. And so I did it. Yeah. But it was not easy because there was, and especially I'm still young. I'm, I was what, 25 when I started making that, those choices. Mm-hmm. To turn to the Lord and. It's [00:39:00] just, it goes against everything that a natural 25-year-old wants. Yes. And you're being honest here, and I'm sure the listeners appreciate that you're being real with us. Yeah, absolutely. You're not pretending that, everything is hunky dory and you're perfect. No, absolutely not. So what is your relationship with God like right now? I think it's awesome. He's my best friend. I talk to him daily. I go to church. I'm involved in my church. I'm a spiritual coach. I have the good news podcast. I don't know. I don't find anything more gratifying than using every aspect of my life to glorify God and to glorify his holy name. And that's what I do every single day. I try at least. Amen. You're definitely different. The new rose looks different than the old rose. Oh my gosh, yes. And I laugh because this is something that. I am still experiencing with people that know me, that have known [00:40:00] me for many years. They're like, you're different now. Mm-hmm. And I get this so often now within my family, friends, they're like, oh, the old Rose wouldn't do this. Or the old, or the old rose was you. I get this a lot was fun. And I'm like, your definition of fun and my definition of fun now is completely different because I no longer want the things that the world has to offer. Yep. The things I used to do, I don't do them anymore. There's a song I put away My child. Just things. Yes. We have a lot of listeners who are listening to your powerful story today, and they're in an abusive situation right now. What advice would you give them right now? Oh, this is hard. I think I, I have so many. We still got 10 more minutes left on. Okay. So I got it. Well, if you don't know, God, that's my first piece of advice is to get to know him. I don't think that I could have gotten out [00:41:00] of my situation without him. I know that. I know that, like I said, my hand was forced because I. Was at the hospital and he was in jail. And it was no other choice, but I think that was God. God really delivered me from death and deliver, delivered me from that situation to get me to the place that I am now. So if you don't know God, it's so important that you have a relationship with him because he's gonna guide you the best. And secondly, trust somebody. Trust any someone in your life and talk to them about it. I didn't. And it made me feel so alone. It made me feel abandoned. Mm-hmm. And I know now that I have a. Army of people who love me and will, go to war for me. And I didn't think that, you think that oftentimes because of the choices that you make and ultimately for me, like, I thought all of my decisions was what warranted that abuse. So we get to a place where we don't wanna reach out for help because we're like, people are gonna look at me and say well, you [00:42:00] did that to yourself, but that's not. I learned that wasn't true. That the people that are there for you, that love you will help you out of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I tell my listeners all the time, I'm available to help people. I'll help. I'll help you any way I can, and I'm sure that you would say the same thing. Absolutely. Yeah. You would help anybody that reached out to you for help. Yes. I'm always happy to be an a listening ear. I literally, like I said, I'm a spiritual coach, so my phone is on twenty four seven. I answer calls, texts, voice notes, whatever. Yes. Awesome. Rose has her good news podcast. Yes. So you can hear her putting me in the hot seat for a change. And so you can listen to that on her show. How can the listeners connect with you? Absolutely. I am on, well, the Good News podcast, you could go to ww dot the good news podcast.org. You could find it on [00:43:00] iTunes and Spotify, but I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, and I'll have all that stuff in the show notes for everybody. Mm-hmm. Was there anything we left out that you wanted to tell the good folks listening? No, other than just thank you for having me. This has been awesome, and I just hope my prayer is that this, episode blesses somebody and gives them the strength and the courage to, to do what I, to do what I didn't get to do, leave. So, amen. Mm-hmm. Amen. Yes. This has been great. I've enjoyed listening to you tell your story again, and how the Lord's brought you to where you're at now. Thank you. God bless you. God bless you too. And all your listeners, wow, wasn't she great folks? It's an amazing story. So you be sure to reach out to Rosalie and listen to her podcast. I hope this encouraged you. It [00:44:00] sure encouraged me. So thank you so much everybody for tuning in today. We're going to see you next week. God bless you everybody. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

Tiff and Trish discuss the often ignored practice transition — are you looking ahead for your practice? Ten years out? Thirty years? The two consultants discuss what to keep in line now so that any changes on the horizon are received with minimal panic and damage. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners. We are here today with some really, really just fantastic information. We're rounding out the year, if you can believe that. It's almost 2026, so whatever year you're listening to this in, hopefully it's also still super relevant, but we are heading into 2026 here soon. And we thought that it would be really fun to just wrap the year with a couple of different practice strategy kind of.   don't know, just like how to progress where you're at, from where you're at to where you wanna go. Strategy podcast. So I'm just super excited. I have one of my favorite human beings in the world here with me today. I have Ms. Trish Ackerman. She is a prized possession on the Dental A Team team here. She is a traveling dental consultant with our team, which means that she does virtual consulting. So we do.   coaching calls, video calls, we team training calls, all those pieces, you guys know that, but she also travels to practices and sees different practices in person, kind of helping them strategize and train the team and get things working again, kind of oiling that machine. And something I like to say is, I always tell my practices, Trish, and I think you probably feel the same way, I always tell my practices that we have the most incredible practices that join the Dental A Team. We really attract the most incredible people, but   more than anything, I always know that I'm coming into a practice that's running really well. And my job is to find the areas where they just kind of feel a little bit stuck. Maybe something's a little bit inefficient. Maybe there's just something that's like, gosh, if we tweak this a centimeter to the left or a millimeter to the right, kind of I think of like implants, like, you know, you gotta just get them just right. And if we can make that little tweak ⁓ with them in office and find those areas, then their lives become.   less stressful. like to remove the stress. So I always tell practices, gosh, like I just don't get invited to practices that aren't doing well. I'm always, I'm always just so shocked at how well practices are doing. And Trish, I know you've consulted for a while. You've been here with our team for a little while, but you have just so much, there's like a wealth of knowledge behind you and all of the aspects of everything that you've done. And I'm so excited for you to be on this team. I know your practices are thriving because you're here.   We are thriving because you're here and we're all better people because of it. So Trish, thank you so much for being here today. I'm excited to pick your brain on these practice strategies. How are you? Your hair, we already talked about your hair is stellar. I had a weird hair dream. So hair is on the mind. It's like, it's a thing today. So welcome with your beautiful glasses and your beautiful hair. And it's 8 a.m. in the morning. What were we thinking? But this is a great way to start our day. Trish, how are you today?   DAT Trish Ackerman (02:44) I'm doing great. Thanks, Tim. I always like doing this with you.   The Dental A Team (02:47) Okay, thank you. Thank you. That makes it much easier ⁓ when I schedule it that you enjoy doing it. So thank you. I appreciate that. ⁓ I do enjoy life with you. You shed a lot of perspective for me. So thank you. ⁓ Yeah, definitely team listeners. I had this, okay, start over. Marketing, our marketing department, they help us come up with a lot of topics. And then the consulting team, we kind of look at them more like, hey, is this relevant? Is this something that   DAT Trish Ackerman (02:55) Welcome.   Thank you.   The Dental A Team (03:17) we're seeing pop up in our worlds of consulting with our clients and our listeners is this something that's going to be super beneficial. And this topic came up and I was like, gosh, actually, it's kind of super cool to end the year with this because now we get to look into what next year is going to be. And this could be a lot of strategy that helps build, I think, Trish long term visions. It might not be something that someone's thinking about today. Just like I know we have.   you know, lot of new graduates who listen and, a lot of doctors who've been in practice for 20, 30 years, or even three years, five years, wherever they're at on their journey, I feel like this is information that we like to shed light on for all of our practices. That's like, always be prepared. Just like, I don't feel like, I don't feel like we buy houses. We don't have a home and not know the value always. Like we're always making sure we know the value. We're making sure we know, you know, our prices right.   our interest rates are the best that we can get. Do we need to refinance? We're always looking at those aspects, but I think that we forget to duplicate that and look at it in our business as well and make sure that we always know the health of our business. And Trish, when we're building out goals, I know you and I both do this. We like to look as far ahead as we can, like 10 years ahead to say, what could that look like? And when do you want to retire?   Right, when do you think that you want to repair? How long do you want to work? And even if that's 30 years down the road, making sure that at any point we could be ready for that. And so today is really talking about practice transition strategies, what that might look like. And Trish, I want to know from your perspective, you've done quite a few practice transitions, I would imagine, in the history of dentistry that you've got behind you there. What are some of the...   What are some common to start, like let's start just broad. What are common practice transitions that you have seen that you've worked through? Like what does that even mean when a doctor says I want to transition or we say transition in there to understand that? What does it mean to transition? What have you seen?   DAT Trish Ackerman (05:24) What I've seen is doctors that have been with the practice for many, many years, they built their legacy and they are ready to pass the baton to a new dentist. And it's a big decision. And sometimes they're sometimes they have sellers remorse because then they realize that, shoot, maybe I wasn't quite ready. But I have, I have seen it where, I mean, most of the time the sellers are very ready and, the new buyers coming in are very ready. So   you know, it's a transition. We make sure that the doctor, both doctors are aligned, the seller and the buyer, and that it's a good fit for both.   The Dental A Team (06:03) Yeah, I love that. love that. So transition could mean a sell and a buy, right? A transition is a change, right? Transition is we're making a change. We're looking different in the future than we do today. And I agree, I think a couple of pieces that on both sides are super important, I think is that alignment word that you used, right? And making sure that we know where we want to go. I think a seller needs to know where they want to go. Why do they want this practice?   the or why do they want to sell this practice and the buyer needs to know why do I want this practice and being in alignment with that is absolutely key. Now, when we're prepping for selling ⁓ and transitioning, we'll call it transitioning, what are some of the things that you have advised or you've worked on yourself while helping practices to sell? How do you prepare for selling? Like what do you need to make sure is in place if they're not?   We'll take it two ways. Maybe someone's not selling today. They're like, well, one day I might sell. And then maybe someone's like, gosh, I need to sell. want to sell. I'm ready to get out. So what would you advise someone who says maybe one day I might want to sell? How do they keep their business prepared for that?   DAT Trish Ackerman (07:16) Well, that's always the best way, like start a plan. There are times when it's like an emergency and need to sell, when they have the, when they've got the time to plan, you really want to ensure like the, like you were talking about, tip that the selling of the house, you don't sell your house if the flooring is just a hot mess or if, or if the roof is caving in, you get those things fixed first. And in a dental practice, you really need to protect the patient base because the new buyer   or even somebody transitioning in to purchases, what does the patient base look like? And if we're adding a partner, do we have a patient base for them? If we don't, this is the time that we, the doctors need to be hyper-focused on growing that patient base. That also requires like, what does the accounts receivable look like? What is the collection ratio? Is this practice producing but not collecting? And though you do like kind of a full analysis on the top.   five KPIs typically, and then ensure that they are in really good condition. You want your practice to look appealing and you want your practice to be healthy. And when you're selling anything or transitioning in, the patient base is always number one. So if you have the syndrome where the front door is open, but the back door is open as well, we need the time to strategize to get that back door closed to ensure that when we go to sell this new buyer,   The Dental A Team (08:35) Yeah   DAT Trish Ackerman (08:43) or new partner knows that there's a solid patient base in place. And then again, the counts receivable, that's another really big one. That's got to be cleaned up pretty well. Again, to look appealing and to be worth something.   The Dental A Team (08:55) Yeah, I love that. I am in transition. Like we're looking at purchasing a home and we have a home that we're either going to rent or we're going to sell. And what you're making me think of now is that our realtor, I love her dearly. She is one of my best friends in life. And she is like, cool, we can totally do this, but she needs some really nice pendant lights. Like Tiff, got to open that. She's like, I know you've got some storage closet somewhere that's got a ton of, you know,   a ton of decor, like she's like, you gotta spruce this place up. Like, yeah, she got brushing up, this is perfect. And I was like, ⁓ wow, yeah, you're right. And as I'm looking at Zillow and looking at all of these homes, I'm like, ooh, I love those pen and lights and ooh, I love that has black trim. And I'm like, my gosh, actually it's those pieces ⁓ that just sparkle that make you want that thing.   If you want to get a good price, if you want something great for your patients, you want a great person to purchase your practice and you want a great person to carry on the legacy of what you have built and a great person to take care of the patient base that you have worked so hard to get, I think you have to make it attractive and appealing. And I think you're absolutely spot on. The patient base is huge. A doctor buying a practice, a DSO purchasing a practice, like anybody purchasing his practice.   purchasing a practice wants to see that it is valuable. And the value is in the people, right? The patients and the dollars. And I think what you said is exactly true. The flip side of a patient base, you can have all the patients in the world and you can have that back door closed, but if you're not collecting the money, that back door is open. The money's just going out the door with the patients instead of staying in the practice.   That's also an issue as well. So you've got to, you've got to hang those pendant lights and get those systems in place and really, really evaluate if you were, if you remove yourself emotionally from the practice that you've built and you look at it objectively, would this be appealing to you? If you looked at your home on Zillow, you took pictures and you scrolled through those pictures and you looked at your home, would you be attracted to purchase that home? If you weren't emotionally tied to the place. So.   DAT Trish Ackerman (11:15) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (11:15) I love that.   DAT Trish Ackerman (11:16) And piggybacking on that, when you're buying a home, you're buying a practice, what's your profit look like? I mean, if you're buying something that isn't going to have any value because there's a lot of debt tied to this or like a home, if you're going to purchase a home, but you're paying too much for it because it's really only worth, mean, those are also the things that the buyer has to look at. Is this practice, is it like heavy, heavy overhead? And if so,   The Dental A Team (11:19) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   DAT Trish Ackerman (11:43) that needs to be trimmed down along with ensuring that the patient base is strong. If you're gonna sell something, it needs to be profitable to the buyer.   The Dental A Team (11:52) Absolutely,   absolutely. I think that's spot on because you're gonna look at a home and you're gonna say, okay, well, this is the dollar amount that they have it listed for based on these photos or based on what I see in person. This is what I'm gonna have to put into it to make it what I want it to be. So I'm gonna take that into consideration. So if you've got a house priced at 525 and I know it's gonna take 60, $70,000 to...   make it valuable to me, make it the home that I want. Now my brain is saying, this worth 600,000? Because that's what I'm actually putting into it. And then my offer to you is gonna take into consideration the upgrades that I feel I need in that home in order to compensate for the price that you've listed it for. Yeah, I love that. when you're talking strategies for, we always, think, let me start over.   DAT Trish Ackerman (12:35) Absolutely.   The Dental A Team (12:44) Prepping for selling, I said this in both versions, right? Because I want a doctor to purchase a practice and think that way, right? I want you to think if I were to sell this down the road.   Like how can I invest, reinvest back into this practice to make it the best that it possibly can be? I want this practice for a long time, but we're not gonna be here forever, right? We're not, we may be in our home forever, but the likelihood of that in this day and age in 2025 is unrealistic. We're not gonna, we're likely not going to serve the term of our loan agreement in our home. Like we're going to move on, we're gonna find something new and the same is true for your business. So making sure, we don't know.   We don't know when that's going to happen. We might say, want to practice for 30 years. Great. But if you wait for 25 years to get ready to sell, you're going to be in an emergent sell situation. So day one today, making sure that you think like a seller doesn't mean that you're selling your practice. It doesn't mean that you're not there for your team. It doesn't mean that we're not here for the culture and that we're not here for the growth and the patience. It means we're preparing for everything.   That will set you up for success because you're constantly thinking about the value and about the return on investment that you're making. think that thinking like a seller, thinking, what would I do if I were selling this practice right now, helps you objectively make decisions in the practice, in my opinion. ⁓ Emotions are really, really hard. Emotions are fleeting. Emotions will drive us and we have to be able to step outside of that.   to make really great business decisions most of the time. Now, Trish, me, I always tell my practices, know the worth. So get valuations, like every so often. How do you feel about that? How do you suggest people do that?   DAT Trish Ackerman (14:35) totally agree. think at least every five, five to seven years get a valuation of the practice because that'll also help you guide. If let's say it comes in pretty low, that will give you the valuation company can give you all the tools and the map that you need to get the value up. And if you just sit stagnant, which unfortunately a lot of doctors do, and then they're super shocked because the practice isn't worth anything.   And that is what we don't want to happen, especially to our clients, know, if this is something that they're talking about. So if the valuations, sure, they might cost something, but get it done anyways, because you can continue. It's almost like when you remodel the home. I love using the house as the analogy and get the valuation consistently through the years, because they don't know what they don't know. And when you're only in those four walls all the time,   You don't see what you can be actually doing. the valuation, that totally helps, because it gives all the current owners new perspective, new ideas.   The Dental A Team (15:45) beautiful. love that new new perspective, new ideas. I love that. And I think I'm addicted to it's like a it's a problem. I am addicted to model homes, just going and walking model homes. I love it. I love walking model homes because I love new perspectives and new ideas. And walking into a model home for me is like, ⁓ my gosh, I wouldn't have even thought to do that with that kind of a space. Right. So I'm getting to see   DAT Trish Ackerman (15:56) I don't know how to tell you.   The Dental A Team (16:14) all of these interior designers work their magic in brand new homes, fresh and new, and I can go, my gosh, I can do that. And we we toured a spec home, meaning it was already built, ⁓ but nothing's in it. it's new, but not all the upgrades. But I thought there was the spec home that I'm like, what do you even do with that space? Like that is the most random space I've ever seen in a house. It's just this little cubby in the back of a kitchen.   So I was like, we need to go look at the model home. So we went and looked at the model home and I was like, oh, that's brilliant. I never would have thought to do that. But what you made me think of was that, like touring model homes, right? If we're not getting the valuation, we don't know the value of our home, but we're also not looking at what other people are doing and touring models. We're not going to...   It makes me think of the ADA, the CE courses and the Arizona Dental Convention and the California Dental Convention and going and seeing the floor models of new chairs, new, like getting all of these new ideas and doctors, caveat, it does not mean that we need to implement everything. I do not buy everything I see at the model homes. I just get ideas and then I watch for really good deals, right? But that's where I think we can get those pieces, those missing pieces in something   that I think we have really exciting here at Dental A Team is we have such an amazing community of doctors who are like-minded, but doing things in a different way in every practice. Every practice has their own flair. And when the doctors come together, when they get together at our masterminds and they're in person and they're at our doctor-only masterminds on the first Tuesday of every month and they're sharing these ideas, it's like touring a model home with your best friends. Like, ⁓ my gosh, I didn't even see that.   I didn't even hear it when Trish said that to my team. I didn't hear it that way. I'm to take this back and communicating with each other and getting that fresh perspective, like prepping for selling valuation and have some really good people surrounding you to constantly keep your brain fresh. Yeah, I love that.   DAT Trish Ackerman (18:21) For sure. For sure. The team   is also another, they are also a big factor of this. If this is a legacy practice and there's a hygienist that's been in this practice for 20 years, that is also something that needs to be considered. it can be a little scary when you've got a legacy team, a new buyer comes in and then the seller is out and team goes with.   The Dental A Team (18:26) Yeah.   Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (18:46) And if we can also like your locking in your patient base, you're ensuring that your profit margins are good, that your accounts receivable is healthy, what's the team going to be doing? Because we also need to strategize for that too.   The Dental A Team (18:55) Yeah.   I love that you said that because I think one of the scariest things to a practice owner or business owner in general is the loss of a team. And I think people shy away from talking about the inevitable because they're afraid that the team's going to be scared and run away. And I firmly believe that the people that are meant to be in my life will stick around no matter what my life looks like. And if I'm prepping for   for selling, like I want my team to know too, hey, I'm here for the long haul, but we've got to make sure that we're super healthy because if we're not super healthy and not a buyable practice, if we can't sell, we're not doing right by our patients and I'm not doing right by you. I should be able to ensure that this business is healthy enough that it would want to be swooped up by someone because that means it's healthy enough that I can pay you. And that's how we do it. Yeah, that was beautiful.   Trish, some things that I picked up from you in the systems and I heard, re-care. You are a genius when it comes to re-care strategy. I have never seen someone pull out a re-care strategy like you do and it's beautiful. So if you all need some re-care strategy, like pick Trish's brain. If she is your consultant, you are in fantastic hands. Your re-care, your reactivation is amazing. So.   I know you tackle those, right? So patient-based, re-care, reactivation, and new patients, which also turns into some marketing, making sure that marketing is working. But then you also said ⁓ AR and that our collections are healthy. So patient-based, AR, and then team. So culture, right? So those are, and profit, profit, yes, yes. And if your AR ⁓ is in line, your collections is in line, your patient-based is healthy.   DAT Trish Ackerman (20:37) prop. ⁓   The Dental A Team (20:47) you watch your spending, your overhead should follow those things. Your overhead, typically like to, we love 50%. I love a 50 % overhead margin. Typically what we're gonna see if I'm truthful and honest is 55 to 65%. I really like that 50 to 60 % is really healthy and safe. And I see doctors feel really good and like they can save for what they need to save for and not be stretched too thin, but that 55 to 65 % is pretty common.   ⁓ So, re-care strategy, these are the pieces guys, these are your action items from Trish. Make sure you are ready to sell so that you're not in an emergent situation. If you're in an emergent situation, meaning you're trying to sell within the next one to five years, bust a move. You can still do this. Re-care strategy is in place. We're not losing patients out the back door, meaning they're getting reappointed. They're coming in, your new patients are staying. Re-activation.   So what patients have gone out the back door, who has not been seen in the last 18 months or so, AR, make sure that your collections is super clean. That is a space that doctors get a little scared. Reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, reach out, we will help you with this. And then your profit and your culture. Okay, so watch your culture. Go ahead, Trish, show us what can see. yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:02) I do want to add something to the accounts receivable that just popped in my   mind. I can't believe I left this out. Not only is it the accounts receivable, but also the credits. When you see some practices that have like $100,000 worth of credits, that is also something that it's got to be cleaned up. It's got to be cleaned up before sell.   The Dental A Team (22:11) Yes, yeah.   Mm-hmm.   I completely agree. That was a massive, massive space. Good job. Yes. I agree. We focus really heavily on, by we, I mean the dental community, on the outstanding money, what is owed to you, but what do you owe to the people? What needs to go out?   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:38) Yep. That is a big   one when we go to sell.   The Dental A Team (22:42) Yes,   and I've seen it, you guys, I've seen it upside down. I have seen our AR, our accounts receivable that's due to us is lower than our credits. That's a scary place to be, okay? So watch for those, that was huge stress, yes. So get your re-care, reactivation in line, okay? Get your patients in line, your new patients as well. Make sure that your collections is healthy, so your AR is healthy.   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:53) Yes.   The Dental A Team (23:09) Your credits are healthy, that your profit is healthy and that your culture is healthy. Those are the spaces to ensure. then every once in a while, Trish, I love the five to seven years, go get that valuation. Make sure that you know the value of your practice and go walk some floor models. You guys, it's super fun. So if you're bored on the weekend too, like they're open all the time. So there you go. That's where you'll find me. Um, I know I do love them so much. I'm like, oh my gosh, I take pictures. I have pictures of tables and like.   DAT Trish Ackerman (23:28) Perspective and ideas.   The Dental A Team (23:39) lights on my phone that I'm probably never going to use, but I've got them because I saw them and I was like, that's a beautiful table. I'm going to find that. You never know. They're there. All right, guys, go do the things. Trish, thank you so much. I knew you would have just a ton of information for us. And you guys, again, if you have re-care strategy questions, Trish's   DAT Trish Ackerman (23:46) Yeah, you never know when you might get it.   That's cool.   The Dental A Team (24:01) Trish is our go-to gal. We've all got our stuff, but I have literally been in an office standing next to her watching her do it, and I was like, I don't even know how you're doing these numbers. So she's got a lot to teach all of us, and she's your gal. So Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You guys, go do the things. You know where to find us. Drop us a five-star review. Let us know what you loved. Let us know what you want to hear, like I said at the beginning.   We come up with these on our own, you guys. We just kind of dig through our brains and think what could be healthy for practice, what could somebody want. So if you have ideas, if you have things that are burning desires, please reach out. We would love any suggestions on topics that we're maybe missing. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And thanks guys, we'll catch you next time.   DAT Trish Ackerman (24:43) Thanks, Tiff.  

In this explosive episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins sits down with actor, entrepreneur, and mob insider Gianni “Johnny” Russo, best known for his unforgettable role as Carlo Rizzi in The Godfather. Russo pulls back the curtain on a lifetime of stories that stretch from Frank Costello and Joe Colombo to Las Vegas skimming, the Vatican Bank, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, and even Pablo Escobar. Russo discusses his new book, Mafia Secrets: Untold Tales from the Hollywood Godfather, co-written with Michael Benson—an unfiltered account of power, violence, politics, and survival inside the criminal underworld and Hollywood royalty. This is not recycled mythology—this is Gianni Russo's personal version of history from the inside. Whether you believe every word or not, the stories are raw, violent, and utterly fascinating. This episode discusses: The Godfather, The Kennedy assassinations, Vegas skimming, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, the Chicago Outfit, Pablo Escobar

Our guest for this episode of The Horn Call Podcast is the ebullient Heidi Oros!  Heidi professional freelance hornist in the Finger Lakes area and is a former second hornist with La Orquesta Sinfónica del Estado de México. Heidi is a founding member (2006) of the woodwind ensemble, “i venti dementi,” and has been the hornist with the Swamp College Brass Quintet since 2007. Most recently, she joined the Lake Effect Winds, a woodwind quintet situated in Ithaca. Heidi earned her BM and MM at Ithaca College. She teaches private horn lessons in Trumansburg. Episode Highlights Personal journey on the horn, important teachers/inspirations along the way Keys to Transposition Book: https://www.keystotransposition.com/ Performing in Mexico Organizing performances of Lionheart's Call by James Naigus to honor healthcare workers: jamesnaigus.com Taking time off and coming back to the horn High Range Magic: https://marsgelfo.com/hrm-overview/ Zoom Meetings with Jack Covert/Memorial Concert Importance of the IHS, symposiums, community, etc.

 When it just touches on these really profound themes and it's moving in a way that catches you off guard. Matt Nothelfer is a Committee Member of the Borrego Springs Film Festival and working documentary filmmaker.In this conversation, Matt talks:* Why small, community-driven festivals like Borrego Springs offer some of the best experiences for indie filmmakers.* How the festival creates a filmmaker-friendly environment: lounge, home-baked food, networking, and long Q&As.* The “secret weapon” of Borrego Springs: a local audience that fills a 180-seat theater from morning to night.* Why early-bird submissions matter—and when they don't.* How to spot scammy or low-value festivals on FilmFreeway through community presence, transparency, and online footprint.* Why filmmakers should focus more on storytelling and theme than technical perfection.* The blind-submission, five-category review process Borrego uses to evaluate films fairly.* Why small festivals often have the highest acceptance chances—300 submissions, 70–80 selections.* How writing a thoughtful, festival-specific cover letter can move a film from “maybe” to “yes.”* Advice to emerging filmmakers: avoid chasing 100 meaningless laurels and instead pursue festivals aligned with your goals.Thanks for reading The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Newsletter! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Here is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation. Don't come for me.BEN: Hi everyone. This is Ben Guest and this is The Creativity Education and Leadership Podcast. Today my guest is Matt Telfer, who is a committee member for the Borrego Springs Film Festival. In this interview, we talk all things film festival, how to run a filmmaker friendly festival, and tips and tricks for submitting to film festivals.Enjoy.Matt, thanks so much for joining the podcast today.MATT: My pleasure. Happy to be here.BEN: So, I always like to start with a fun question, senior year of high school, what music were you listening toMATT: right off the bat with a curve ball? Alright, let's lay it out. I got the Talking Heads,BEN: the Cure,MATT: Like, let's see, what else?BEN: New Wave.MATT: Yeah, a little bit of the punk stuff. I mean, we got Pixies were, was I listening to the Pixies then? I can't remember. Yeah, so, uh, the Dead Milkman, stuff like that. The pubs, um, yeah, I had some of their records. You know, it's really frustrating ‘cause I had those records up until like five years ago and I left them at a colleague's house and they scattered to the wind.All that good stuff. Yeah. Anyway, I'm still a little bitter about that, but That's okay. My colleagues, my colleague was a friend and he, he deserved them.BEN: So you are a committee member at the Borrego Springs Film Festival. What? Yes, sir. And, and you've, you've held a variety of roles there and, and off air, you're saying sort of lately you've been focused on.You know, the pre-production of the festival, the website, getting the materials together. Correct? Correct. Reaching out to filmmakers, et cetera. Talk to me, talk to us about what are the fundamentals of running a good festival?MATT: Well, our context is that we're super small and modest. Uh, like we were saying before the interview, uh, officially started, we are literally a, a tiny little village in the middle of a giant state park.Actually the biggest state park in the lower 48 states desert community. We're actually just south of Palm Springs and, uh, there's like 3000 full-time residents here and, uh. So running a film festival in a place where there's literally. Not really a commercial market, it's a different type of animal.And um, so we kind of do everything on a very tight budget and we try to personalize stuff as much as we possibly can. We, since we can't really throw a lot of money at stuff, we just do everything we can in other dimensions.BEN: What's an example of that?MATT: Just trying to be considerate about stuff, uh, being friendly to filmmakers that are willing to submit and to get, and that also get accepted. So when they come here, it's a personalized experience. We work pretty hard on creating a filmmaker's lounge where folks can gather and network with each other throughout the entire uh.Five days of our film festival and while they're at the film festival and they're talking to each other, we also have food available for ‘em. One of our great committee members, her name's Pam, she literally will bake stuff in the evening and bring it in in the morning. So you have fresh pastries, cookies, coffee, like fruit vegetables, just everything laid out.And you know, there's really not a huge expense to do that, but you need like the right people to do that, so that's the thing that kind of makes our festival a little bit. Different, I guess in a way is like there's a personalized aspect to it and we spread that type of attitude across all our stuff.So we're gonna have like four parties during the entire festival, and all those parties have similar type of vibe.BEN: The reviews that I read online, um, on film freeway filmmakers were saying that it is, it's a film, it's a filmmaker friendly. Festival.MATT: Yeah. Because, you know, that's what we can do. Mm-hmm. Like, you're not gonna travel to a remote place in the desert and, you know, run into a bunch of industry folks.Usually there are exceptions to that. And, uh, as our. Film festival has gotten a little more solid, and we occasionally have some industry people coming in. Most of the time it's indie filmmakers. You know, we might have some elbow rubbing that this kind of neat. But for the most part, you know, these are just small independent filmmakers trying to do their thing and.Wanting to share their films with an appreciative audience. And aside from, being very personable, uh, with the committee and with the staff that run the film festival, one of the great things about our particular film festival is that the community is a huge part of what we do. The event they show up, we have 180 seat theater and it's full from 10:00 AM in the morning until eight o'clock at night.Oh wow. Every block and wow. It's been that way since the beginning, and it's not because of anything that we do on the committee, it's simply because the community wants to be a part of it. And so that's kind of our secret weapon, is like you show up as a filmmaker and like, oh man, I got, I got scheduled for the 10:00 AM block.They, and then they, they show up and like, what's going on here? This is look back. And then at the end of it, you know, there's an extended q and a. We don't. Push our blocks back to back really tight and there's plenty of time just to like relax and having interaction with folks and some q and as will go on for like a half an hour, if not more.And it's just, you know, so that's a unique thing that just kind of emerged without effort. And we take credit for it and we're excited that we can offer that. But you know, it wasn't any, it wasn't by design, it was just kind of like, cool. This is working.BEN: As far as festivals go, it sounds like filmmaker heaven.MATT: Well, you try to, we definitely try to be. And the dude that got this whole thing rolling, his name's Fred G and he has lived in this little community for a really long time, and he's a great guy and he's one of the reasons why a lot of people show up because, you know, he's just one of those kind of like community, uh, he's, he'll be really upset if I use this phrase, but he's like a town elder. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So just having that type of guidance and having that type of person that can kind of unify the entire event, I. Is really great. And again, like I said before, it's kind of our secret weapon is that we have like this great community that's willing to be a part of a filmmaker's storytelling in so much as like they'll sit there, they'll react to it, they'll ask questions about it afterwards.So yeah, if you're. A filmmaker that wants your film to be seen by actual eyeballs and actual people that are engaged. Mm-hmm. Then film festivals like ours, which there are many around, around the world. You gotta search ‘em out. As a filmmaker, you've gotta. Start getting discriminating. You've gotta really pay attention to what films are film festivals are offering and try to be a part of those kinds of environments, if that's what you want.BEN: So this is great because you're, um, you are part of the Bgo Springs Film Festival, you're also a working filmmaker. What are some other festivals that you've attended or know about that have a similar sort of filmmaker friendly vibe?MATT: Full Bloom film festival in North Carolina for sure. The WYO Film Festival in Wyoming, we enjoyed that a lot.My wife and I who are documentary filmmakers, we've taken our film films there. And again, you know, it's the exact same recipe basically, you have a core group of citizens that are willing and able to show up and be a part of an event. So when you sh, when you arrive as a filmmaker and you sit in the audience, you're not alone with, or if you're in the audience and you're only with other filmmakers there to screen their movie, you know?Yeah. You know that, you know that feeling. We've been there, right? We've been, we've all been there and, and we don't. Film festival is like what we're talking about right now. They don't wanna offer that. They want it to be something, even if they sometimes fall short, which has happened with us, we've had blocks where, maybe there's only 50 people in the audience and, you know, half of the audience might be filmmakers.But that is such a rare thing anymore. You just wanna be offering something to filmmakers. Make them feel appreciated because we know how hard it is to make these things and even and to be willing to share that in front of other people and, ask and answer questions it's a special thing and we wanna nurture that as much as possible and sort of those other film festivals.Love it. Yeah.BEN: Yeah. So we, I, I first came across you on Reddit on the film festival subreddit, and you were offering good advice and thoughts on, for filmmakers applying to festivals, how to think through strategy. So I guess for all, yeah. I mean, did you hear Yeah, help us out.MATT: Yeah. Did you, when you were reading that stuff, I mean, what kind of hit you as like the most relevant?BEN: I think it's two things and since I, I just have a documentary. I finished and am submitted a film festivals. I've read a bunch of stuff. Seen a bunch of stuff, so I may conflate some of the things that you said versus something I saw elsewhere. But two things. That's all right. I'llMATT: take credit for it.BEN: One is know what your goal is ahead of time, right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. To, be it the, be it a filmmaker friendly festival with good parties and events and networking. Is your goal to get exposure? Is your goal to meet people in the industry? Is your goal mm-hmm. To get laurels? Those are all different worthy goals, but they all will change your strategy and your approach for film festivals.And the second is, you know, submit to, don't submit to 50 festivals. Submit to 5, 6, 7, see what the results are and then adjust from there.MATT: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, when we're talking strategy, that's so important and, and we can speak about it from the perspective of the Borrego Springs Film Festival because, you know, knowing the context of the type of festival we are now, if you were a filmmaker that was searching out, let's say.A bunch of like publicity for, you know, some type of, media push. It's like, would you necessarily want to come to Bgo Springs? Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on how you played it, but. The main reason you would be coming to Borrego Springs, we feel is because you want that personal interaction and you want feel special as a filmmaker and you want to share your stuff with us, and we want you to share your stuff with us, right?So you're absolutely right when you're initial initiating your kind of film festival search as a filmmaker, you really gotta narrow down what your expectations are. And figure that out. I can speak as a filmmaker as well. It's like if you're gonna go someplace and spend money to do so, I mean, at the very minimum you squeak by on a budget of 500 bucks, then that's kind of like dirt cheap to go someplace and then return home.You know? That's still a lot of money. Mm-hmm. And that's, that's probably like. The least amount that you would ever be able to spend and you would need help, like getting lodging, which we try to offer to our filmmakers. Um, you know, how are you gonna, what are you gonna do? What are you going to eat when you get there, which we try to offer to our filmmakers.And, you know, all those things become part of the calculus, right? Mm-hmm. Especially when you're independent, mm-hmm. I would ask you is like when you're trying to submit, what are you aiming for right now?BEN: So great question. So I'm aiming for trying to get multiple laurels and I'm in, in a little bit of a different situation, I think, than most filmmakers.So I, I have an academic background, I have a PhD, and ideally I'd like to I've worked at various universities. In the ideal world, I'd like to go back overseas and teach film at a university. And so in the world, in the world of academia, you know, there's this phrase, publish or perish, right? You have to publish academic journal articles, publish.Mm-hmm. In film, in the world of filmmaking, academia, a film festival run. A film festival. Acceptance is like a journal article, right? Um, maybe if you do a feature film that's like publishing a book, this is sort of, uh, roughly equivalent to getting a, a journal article published. So I want to sort of garner a number of laurels so that I can indicate, you know, this, this short plate at these 10 different film festivals.MATT: Okay, so the credentials matter, right? Correct. It's kind of like that kind of that'sBEN: exactly right. LittleMATT: trophy on the mantle, as it were. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I'm gonna ask you another question if that's okay.BEN: Yes. I feel like I'm getting a All right. Free film festival, um, consulting.MATT: Perhaps, I don't know about that, but when you are pursuing the laurels and, you know, everything's kind of like filtering through film freeway these days. Mm-hmm. So what's your strategy as far as like finding those types of film festivals that you think are going to, allow you to get those laurels on your poster or whatever?BEN: Yeah. Another great question. So couple things. One is it's a doc. My latest is a documentary short, and it's, it takes place in the world of improv comedy. And the two subjects are two black women. So looking at festivals that either are geared towards comedy, towards documentary shorts or towards black themes and African American themes. One of those three or, or, um. Themes of uh, women in, in general. Sure. Well, if I couldMATT: interrupt real quick, please. Yeah. So it seems like you're trying to basically still maintain some integrity as far as that goes. It's like, yeah, I'm not relevantBEN: all like the fly by night, if you submit, we'll give you the, you know, the UP award.Yeah, exactly. Well, that, that's why I'mMATT: asking because. Okay. Because that's why I'm asking because, there are plenty of, you know, weird little festivals that are floating around the mill fly by night, that,BEN: thatMATT: come, that come and go. And if you want to get a hundred laurels on your poster, if that's, you know, what makes you feel good, then you could definitely do that.But at least what you're saying is like, okay, let's make sure that what's happening with my film has integrity, has, has a shape, and has, something that means something after, you get accepted.BEN: Yes. Oh, a hundred percent.MATT: And the reason I bring that up is because, you know, as a small film festival we struggle with getting we just struggle competing with what's out there on film Freeway, let's put it that way.BEN: You know, because Talk about that. Break itMATT: down. Yeah. You know, it's just, as anyone knows that's trying to do this thing, it's like you hit film freeway and they're a great platform. I'm not, complaining about them at all, but there's just a lot of stuff on there that is more or less as a filmmaker or relevant.I mean, would you agree with that?BEN: Oh, a hundred percent.MATT: Unless all you're wanting to do is just get one laurel to put on your, on your poster, so you know. Maybe they offer a little bit of something. But as a filmmaker, I've been to the ones that don't offer much anything aside from a screening and even, and it's like I'm lucky enough to even go to ones that have physical screenings.A lot these days are just like, oh, we'll slap it online and call it good. So, you know, uh, let's be honest, there's a lot that are just out there and they're just trying to churn. Make some money. So as a small film festival, we're competing with that stuff and we've seen our, uh, submission rate decline, not necessarily a bad thing for us.Mm-hmm. But for other film festivals, I imagine they might be getting frustrated with it. We are actually perfectly comfortable with where we've kind of landed and the groove we've been in since the pandemic. Even a little few years before then, and we haven't tried to kind of like change our recipe much.So we're just happy with the amount that we're getting. We're happy with the amount that we're accepting and we're pleased with how we're screening stuff and the opportunities we're giving people. But I do feel, from what I've seen, it's becoming. Uh, it's just, it's a bit, it's a bit difficult to navigate the slop.Let's just break it down like that. Yeah. And I don't know if you're feeling if you're experiencing the same thing or not. I'd be curious to, to see what you, what you say.BEN: For a hundred percent, so I, I made a few documentaries in the late 20, 2011, 2012, and that was right when Without a box, which was filmed free, right withoutMATT: a box.BEN: Started and it was great because instead of having to burn a bunch of DVDs and physically mail them, you could just upload your film and then submit it to a bunch of festivals. Research a bunch of festivals. Great. Coming back to it now in 2025, it's Scam Central and I think unfortunately one of the things you, you have to spend a bunch of time doing is trying to figure out which of these festivals.First of all, which of these festivals are just legit in that they're not trying to just mm-hmm. Get money from you. They're gonna do a virtual screening and that's it. And then once you even get that breakdown, kinda like you said, which are festivals that are legit, that, that have good people working hard, good intentions, you're proud to show your film there versus they're just churning through submissions and fees.And chart, have a bunch of deadlines and a bunch of different slots you can apply for. They're not the exact opposite of how you describe Borrego Springs.MATT: Yeah. And you have to, as a film festival, at least in our opinion over here, it's like you have to bring that value to the table or else why?Why are you really doing it? And if that answer is like, you're just some guy sitting in an apartment somewhere trying to make a lot of money or a living, I don't know if you can make a lot of money doing this.BEN: Mm-hmm.MATT: Um, but. If you're just doing a film festival that is literally fly by night because you want to cash in, it's like, that's really unfortunate.Now the other side of that coin is like we see a lot of very earnest filmmakers submitting and, uh, they might not be the most technically adept. And they're fresh out of the gate as far as like trying to be a filmmaker. So they're very eager and you know, they just want to tackle everything all at once, and they end up you know, they're not really exercising any discrimination about where their films are going and they end up, you know mm-hmm.Kind of wasting a lot of money in that regard. Submitting, the, submitting, submitting without much, kind of emotional reward from it. And I think,BEN: yeah.MATT: Having some type of like positive feedback about what you're doing is great, even if it's whatever.But. It really helps to have a place to land where you feel like super special and cared for and considered and not just like, oh, I showed up and, it cost me $10 to get into my own movie and it's costing me $20 to, buy a cocktail over here and, you know, those kinds of things.If you're even lucky enough to get that, honestly.BEN: Right. What's your advice on spotting scams when you're applying to festivals?MATT: How to be discriminating as far as like submitting?BEN: Yeah,MATT: I mean I can only approach that from our, my wife and i's own experience trying to get our films into festivals. And with the insight like working on a film festival, I think that helps.But trying to spot ‘em is really, you got to. Try to get a sense if there's any type of community involvement going on mm-hmm. With the festival. And you can usually track that online if you're, you know, if you're a bit sleuthy, and you can find out if it's being supported by the community in some sort of way.Mm-hmm. And it shouldn't take you too long to figure that out with a couple of decent, online searches and follow in a few threads of information. Another thing is, is like if they're kind of nurturing their online presence, you know, it doesn't have to be super sophisticated. You just have to get a vibe that they're trying.And if, if you get that kind of sense, then it's worth the effort. Typically the other thing is you gotta really know what type of film festival that you're submitting to, right? If you're making documentaries, you're not submitting to, you know, a feature film, festival Right. In every festival.So yeah. Core effects. So I, yeah. You know, it's just being, making those obvious decisions. But when you dig beneath that superficial stuff and you get past like the obvious. Really try to get a sense about what you want yourself as a filmmaker when you go to a film festival. And for us it's like getting appreciative eyeballs on the film and giving us fun feedback and having a good time and interacting and, and doing some networking, uh, basically having a party and celebrating your film.Mm-hmm. And I think that weBEN: think about, yeah, sorry, go ahead.MATT: I think that this, that's important for us, so I imagine, and I, I would think that it's important for other people that are making movies as well. Yeah. If we, about, especially independently.BEN: Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's you were alluding to very little money in it, but, um, there are, there are rewards.Yes. One of the biggest of which is seeing your film in a packed house with an engaged audience. What from a screener perspective, from a film festival perspective, what are some tips you would give up and coming filmmakers, young filmmakers on their short films in particular mistakes that you see et cetera, et cetera.MATT: I would say the biggest mistake, especially as a, a young filmmaker, is concentrating so much on the technicalities of the craft and ignoring the storytelling. Um, you know, we, you mentioned, and we mentioned before about like when we started, uh. Kind of submitting to film festivals. This was basically what, like 15 years ago for both of us now, right?2010s, 2012, whatever. Mm-hmm. The technical back then could elevate you above everything else back then. Like today. You know, look, anyone that has a, has a mobile telephone, essentially has the skillset it takes, or not the skillset, but the technical wherewithal.AnBEN: outstanding camera.MATT: Yeah. Yeah. And the point being is like you can go out and you can create something compelling without the gate of the technical getting in the way. Uh, you can capture it. And it doesn't have to look like a million bucks. It's nice if it looks like, you did a big budget thing on a small budget.I'm not knocking the craft of anything. I'm just saying don't be so intent. Or maybe even don't even worry if like, it falls short technically a little bit. ‘cause I will. Guarantee you that a film is gonna get into a film festival based on if it's a compelling story with a good theme or not. And theme is another thing that a lot of folks don't necessarily appreciate, I don't believe.Just to give you a little bit of insight, our film festival. Is the selection committee are not industry professionals. They are regular citizens. They're just watching movies to help out our film festival. Now, try to imagine what that means. It's like folks don't focus on the technical unless it's an absolute train wreck.They will literally sit down and say, is this something I'm interested in and am, am I engaged with the story? Full stop. So that's where, that's the thing you have to focus on. And if you're not doing that as a filmmaker, okay, maybe you're just, you know, maybe your thing is gonna be, you're just a cinematographer, you're just a sound guy.You know, you're more crafty than you are. You know, a storytellers you gotta find that. You gotta find that place. That would be the main thing, because I know we, we. This, I think this is a good thing about our particular film festival is that we have taken in some films that probably weren't like technically as good as they should have been, but because they are just so.Compelling. We don't ignore it like we do pay attention to the craft, but if a story elevates beyond the craft, we're more than happy to bring those folks in. And when those folks come in, they're like, oh my gosh. You know, it was like we're having a hard time getting accepted to film festivals and we're so grateful that you took our film and we can't believe the response that we're getting.Um, they tend to be the best. Most enthusiastic filmmakers and attendance of anybody. Mm-hmm. They're not cynical, you know, they're not burnt out, they're just like over the moon.BEN: They're happy to be there.MATT: Yeah. And it, and they should be. And they're gonna spread the word ‘cause they, they've created something.Yeah. Wonderful. Now, you know, maybe it's underexposed, maybe it's overexposed. Maybe the audio's not great here and maybe the audio's okay there, whatever. It's compelling. That's the main thing. And you and you as a filmmaker really need to start analyzing. My wife and I do this all the time. It's like, what the heck are we making here?Are we making something that is compelling to us personally? Mm-hmm. Are we making something that's compelling to other people? Mm-hmm. It's two different things.BEN: Mm-hmm.MATT: I mean, that's right. So storytelling is hard.BEN: Yeah. That's the craft. It's storytelling.MATT: Yeah.BEN: Yeah, yeah. What does your, so you've got screeners, not industry folks, people just who appreciate films and filmmaking.What does your judging sheet or criteria sheet look like with your screeners, and what's the process that a film goes through?MATT: Here's another thing about our particular film festival. We're completely blind. Submissions. You know, we do not solicit anything. It's like early days we were kind of like poking around and asking for some folks to kind of consider us, but we've kind of let that fall by the wayside.Maybe that's one of the reasons our submissions have declined a little bit over the years. One of the factors, but regardless completely blind submission. So. Stuff comes in. We have a bunch of people that are at the ready and they start watching it, and we basically have a five step process.It's like, consider this, consider this, consider this, consider this. And they do that. And they mark it from scale of one to 10. And, uh, from that we kind of start our, fundamentallyBEN: what are, what are the different, consider this. Like what are the categories?MATT: Let's see. I gotta look it up, but it, it basically breaks down to, okay.Are you sentimentally engaged with this? Meaning, is it, is it a subject matter? I love that questionBEN: that,MATT: yeah, it is a subject matter that you. Like just offhand, like, okay. It's a, it's a nature movie. See, I love nature movies. Oh, I see. Are you, you see what I'm saying?BEN: Predispose, I thought, I thought you meant was the film engagement.MATT: No, no. It, no, it's, it's, it becomes both. It becomes both, right? Yeah. Because your sentimental attraction to something is going to create an engagement. So we kind of wanna know if, uh, our regular folks are like just locking into something because they just love the subject matter.BEN: They make the topic.Yeah.MATT: Yeah. Um. Then from there we do actually talk about craft, even though I was saying before, like, uh, don't worry so much filmmakers about the craft anymore, but we wanna make sure that you can hear it. Okay. It's not a total disaster with the audio and you can see everything. Okay. So we ask them to rate it on that scale.And then, um, other, you know, just more nuancey things is like, okay, is the pacing cool? In other words. Did you find it like it was dragging a lot or it was, too fast? How's the editing style? Those kinds of metrics. And there's actually a few other ones in there as well. So all that is just kind of thrown into the pile.Mm-hmm. And then from there we start to weed that out as we come to after like all the submissions come in and from. Once all the submissions come in and our, our deadline has passed, then the committee jumps in and starts doing a more nuanced type of an analytical thing to the films that have been submitted.But I will say that regardless of how we kind of shuffle things, once the deadline is closed, the people that watch our films and the committee members are usually. Copacetic. There's hardly anything that that changes. And, um. The nice thing about our particular film festival too, is like if you're a filmmaker submitting, you know, I'll just, I'll give you the numbers.We essentially get like 300 submissions, so it's not a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, and out of that 300 we are running a sub, we're running a screening rate anywhere between like 70 to 80 movies a season. Mm-hmm. So that's a really good. That's a really good, uh, opportunity to get accepted at a film festival, and that's why small film festivals might be the best bet for a lot of independent filmmakers, I think.Mm-hmm. You know, because you have that opportunity to get noticed. So I think I might have tangent, I went off tangentially a little bit there, so if you wanna pull me back in.BEN: Yeah. You went off tangentially, but in a great way. I mean that I want to appreciate the transparency with the numbers. I interviewed, um, the director of the Wyoming International Film Festival, a guy named Rudy Womack, and he was the same.He was like, here's our numbers, we publish ‘em. He's like, most festivals don't, but it just demystifies the process. So it's very helpful.MATT: Yeah. And I'll give film pre credit because they allow film festivals like ours to put those numbers online. Mm-hmm. And, and we've done that. If you hit our page on film Freeway, you can start to figure out what we're about without too much trouble.BEN: What are the, what are the different blocks you run?MATT: As far as like thematically?BEN: Yeah. Yeah. Like at a festival. What are the different categories and blocks.MATT: Aha. See now you touched on something that's kind of unique to us. Okay. So, you know, you go to a film festival and it's like, oh, this is the, this is our dog block.Every movie's about dogs.BEN: Right, right.MATT: Or something like that. We don't do that. At all. So we kind of grab bag, the whole thing. It becomes a very eclectic mix of stuff. Mm-hmm. And one of the reasons we've ended up doing that is because our community has kind of demanded it. Whoa.Interestingly enough. Yeah, so they drove the decision to kind of like stop doing thematic blocks and they wanted a better mix of things because they, again, our folks here, they show up for every single block place is packed.BEN: I just, and sorry to interrupt before you finish, like everything you're saying, it just sounds like there's an iter iterative feedback loop.Between the community in the festival, the film? Absolutely in the festival. The volunteers in the festival. So I just wanna highlight that ‘cause I'm loving everything you're saying.MATT: Well, again, like I said, it's the secret sauce. It's our, it's our weapon that we have our secret weapon that allows us to kind of like elevate beyond our like humble budget.Right.BEN: The community is, but community is letting you know, we don't want thematic blocks.MATT: Yeah. The community came in and said, we, we want mix. So when we sit down and we're sitting through movies, it's like. If we're watching something that we're not in tune with thematically, then you know, you would have to sit there for like an hour and a half and just kind of tolerate it.Whereas now, if like a movie comes on about dogs and for some reason you're just a weirdo and you don't like dogs, that movie will come and go and now you're onto something else, right? Mm-hmm. So. Yeah like you just mentioned, it, it really becomes a cooperative effort between the community, the film festival itself and, and even the filmmakers.And we're kind of proud that it is a little bit ramshackle in that way ‘cause it creates a very organic vibe and weirdly enough. Like at the end of it all because it, it's a little bit random. It is like how folks get scheduled.BEN: Mm-hmm.MATT: Themes are emergent anyway.BEN: Mm-hmm. It's, peopleMATT: start creating patterns that didn't exist and then it sometimes that becomes really profound.It's like, didn't even think of that. It's brilliant. However oh, the other thing about programming too, that we do specifically for our film festival is that we. We ask our filmmakers, say like, Hey, are you planning on coming here? And if they, if they are planning on coming here, we try our, our level hardest to make sure that we program their films to match their schedule, right?So we don't lay out our program and say, okay, you were scheduled for, you know, Wednesday at 2:00 PM. It's like, well, I'm only free on the weekend. You know, and you wouldn't, you would never be able to attend. We ask first to say, do you think you're gonna be able to be here? And if they say yes, then we try to accommodate as best we can.So again, it's, it's collaboration across the board from filmmakers down to the, to the citizens of our small town.BEN: One of the things I read somewhere, or heard somewhere, is that it's much more advantageous to apply for the early bird deadline. What's your take on that?MATT: For our film festival, not so much, but I, I definitely adhere to that strategy as a filmmaker.If nothing else, it's budget conscious, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's cheaper usually under the initial deadlines you know, you have to take advantage of that. The other thing I guess is like, I will say from our experience, uh, with our particular film festival, if you get it in under the early bird deadline, at least it's there.And you know, you've basically got like four or five, six months for the submission. Crew for that particular film festival to kind of think about it. Whereas if it comes in a last minute, you're not really gonna get as much consideration. It's just gonna have to be more like, uh, an initial one-off type of decision.SoBEN: are there other, and I mean the, the most important advice right, is always make a good movie outside of the movie. Yeah. Are there other ancillary things that. Can move the needle at all. Cover letters, director statement, press kit, stuff like that, or it's not, uh, it's negligible.MATT: Hmm. It's neg negligible to an extent in so much, it depends on how you frame it as the filmmaker.Mm. And let me, I'll try to explain. So every year as a film festival, you just basically get cover letters. It's like, oh, take my film please. It's about this, it's about that. But it's a cover lever, co cover letter. It's, uh, copy and pasted. You can tell. You can just, you just know. It's like, okay, they're making an overture to us, but they're also making an overture to like a hundred other film festivals.It's like if you're gonna write to a film festival and say you want in, just make sure that you actually acknowledge who you are sending your film to. Don't just say, Hey, Borrego Springs, I wanna be in your film. I like Borrego Springs, mm-hmm. My parents went there once and I've always been com I've always been interested in the desert and how awesome would it be?See, that tells us that you're paying attention. Right?BEN: Mm-hmm.MATT: That you're trying. We're trying. We just want the filmmakers to try as well, as far as like trying to make any requests to get preferential treatment, and it's totally cool to ask for preferential treatment. By the way. You can say, I see that you're a small community.I just made a film that's, that takes place in a small community. We might be a really good fit. That kind of thing matters, right? An email overture works. Yes. An email overture doesn't work. No. It's both things at once, depending on, it really depends on how you write that letter. So if you wanna invest the time and effort to try to impress a film festival, just make sure that.You understand what that film festival is and really think about if what you're offering, the film festival is something that they might want. And if you can, if you see a, a common thread there, write about it in a letter. And even if it's just one sentence, it's like, then we know on our side that this person's paying attention and that that kind of matters.It does matter. So at the end of the day, when you're take, when you're kind of like really trying to figure out your cutoff, if your little film happens to be on the bubble, guess what? It might get into film festival, right? Mm-hmm. Because you said that you have a connection to this place, and I think that's fair.I mean, what, does that make sense?BEN: Yeah, for sure. So the festival is coming up in January, is that correct?MATT: Yeah, we're in the middle of gearing up for it right now, as a matter of fact. Nice. I gotta run out to the, to town here in like a, like 15 minutes actually to do some stuff for the film festival.So yeah, it's, it's, well, today we're shooting, um, a little promo, uh, thing that we're gonna run, run during. At the beginning of the blocks, and I'll be doing that with Fred G the chairman of the board. Yeah, that's nice, fun stuff. We try to have fun with things, so. Yeah.BEN: We do littleMATT: skits and whatnot during the award ceremony.It's, it's goofy. I love it. Cheesy as hell, but we like doing it, soBEN: I love it. Oh, that's actually something that I sort of, in, in, in my cover letters, which I try to. You know, write tailored to the festival. Especially the ones in California say, well, the film's about this improv duo and mm-hmm. We accepted, we'll come and we would love to do a little improv performance for the festival attendees.Um,MATT: I will say this too, because we're such what you just mentioned. I just want to piggyback on that for a second. So you said in my cover letter I'll say, we're willing to attend. It's like if you say that in a cover letter and you mean it, you, and you're willing to do that. Yeah. That's good. Especially for a festival like ours.We want filmmakers to come here. We wanna treat ‘em to a good time. We want them to be part of something that's. Big in the community and the community wants that as well. So if you're here and you're willing to be here, then that matters.BEN: I love it. Well, I mean, everything I'm hearing about Borrego, like literally I just reached out ‘cause I wanted to just talk film festival submissions, but now I'm like, Ooh, next year I'm definitely gonna submit to, uh, to Borrego.MATT: Yeah, I know this was supposed to be like a strategy session and here I am bragging about the film festival. That'sBEN: No, no. It's exactly what I, what I want. It's great. Last question. What's a, what's a. Documentary that blew you away recently?MATT: So, okay, so last year at our film festival, there was this really cool documentary called Dale. Have you seen it?BEN: No. Tell me about it.MATT: So Dale is like this older woman and she's the first basic Asian American that was in the, um, uh, Los Angeles orchestra, the Los Angeles Phil Harmonic. Okay. And essentially all it is is.I say all it is like, it's a very profound kind of retrospective of what she did to get to that point and you know, her views on things and it's just, and the music that was involved, just very beautiful, very poignant and simple. And. So when, when you have like movies like this and it's, it's not even a 10 minute long movie, it's under 10 minutes.Mm-hmm. When it just touches on these really profound themes and it's moving in a way that catches you off guard. Those are the things that you can't ignore, right? Mm-hmm. And this is actually, Dale's a good example because, you know, it's not always shot pristinely, it doesn't have to look, perfect. But the story reaches kind of a transcendent level that is really, really nice. So if I would throw in Dale and let me see, uh, the the director of that, his name was Justin Strike. So if anyone, I think it's still on the film festival circuit, so you have that opportunity. Go check it out.BEN: Love it. Love it. Love it. Matt, thank you so much for taking the time. For people who are interested in Borrego Springs Film Festival, either to attend, to submit, et cetera, what where should they go and where can they find you?MATT: Oh, online search, just, you know, Borrego Springs Film Festival. It'll lead you to all the places you need to be.And, uh, yeah, just track us down that way. Pretty straightforward. Take a peek at what we're offering. We keep mm-hmm uh, we keep an archive of the stuff we've done online so you can pull back the curtain and look and say, okay, is this kind of something I'd be interested in?Um, you can get a vibe for it that way. And, uh, that's, yeah, that's kind of it. That's kind of it. I think we've tried hard to make sure that what we offered is pretty transparent, and if you take a look at it and you think it's a good fit, and by all means, send us your stuff. Including you, by the way, so, you know.Yeah, no, you have to submit as well now would definitelyBEN: be submitting early bird deadline next year. Perfect. I wish I, if I was still in LA I'd come down, uh, next month and, and just go to this upcoming festival. It sounds wonderful.MATT: Well, I know. Why don't you just do it anyway?BEN: Yeah, I'll give you aMATT: VIP pass.I that,BEN: listen, I might take you up on it. I still all, well, if you do, it'sMATT: we'll be waiting for you.BEN: You, you know, we're, we're documentary filmmakers. We always have a couple irons in the fire. So I do have one kind of idea of, uh, another doc I'd like to shoot out on la maybe I'll combine it. I'll let you know.MATT: Perfect excuse.BEN: Hey, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time. I'm so glad um, we connected and uh, just listen. Our pleasure be fantastic.MATT: Yeah, we're, we're happy as a film festival to be asked to do this kind of thing, so thank you. And um, best of luck to your film too. I'm gonna check it out, so be sure to submit it straight away.BEN: I will. Thank you so much, Matt. Alright man. Thanks.BEN: That was my interview with Matt of the Borrego Springs Film Festival. Hope you enjoyed, please forward to at least one person. Have a great week. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

J'ai lu une newsletter d'Ilise Benun (marketing mentor US) qui m'a fait hocher la tête tout du long.Elle parle de “pipeline” — cette liste de vraies personnes avec qui on a déjà entamé une relation : clients passés, prospects chauds, partenaires…Et elle te propose de revenir vers eux, maintenant. Pas avec une offre agressive, non. Juste un message simple, personnalisé… et une question directe :→ “Tu as un petit budget à utiliser avant la fin de l'année ?”Est-ce que tu consacres assez d'énergie à nourrir ton pipe ? Ou tu te laisses embarquer par la chasse aux nouveaux contacts ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

Sconnie Jared joins the boys! But first, Adam had to navigate the Mission Impossible laser field to get to tonight's recording. The boys reminisce on 2000s comedies and some comedy movie hypotheticals. Adam doesn't understand people's fear of geese, or why the heck people are driving farther than necessary! Jared updates the boys on how duck season went and how early ice fishing season has been. Burk tells us about his trip to dsm for a Home Alone screening with McCauley Culkin. In the Merry Meat, Mm!, of the show, the boys continue celebrating Christmas by listing their top 5 Christmas TV Episodes ever, before discussing the top gifts of our (my?) birth year. What a fun trip down memory lane! Hut Hut! Love y'all.

I, sir, I honor you my proxy And what will with what you make take of that, my beast and brawn affronted; That to no matter to which I may stand as though offered to the Gods, I am at bare my force and wary feast upon thy eyes as swarms, And then to no may have you since! I am at all, my eye, your arm, And hallowed crucifix! CHAOS shatters into a FIRE of FEATHERED fury and precedent mercury of volcanic embering magma and sparse clouds of silver and gold, while though first bleeding from the mouth he is engulfed in flame at once, becoming not unlike the Phoenix, a galaxy into his own forever escaping and never ending realms. Ahhh, you're right. YO WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST SEE? That's ludicrous! ah huh, I know, right. You took all that? Yep. {Enter The Multiverse} Sire, Your honor. I am bound. I have been forged. The crown. Certainly. Your high marks! Aye… You've been betrayed. …To no doubt. I am obliged to confront, your majesty, at all hours and in this your fortress— —your honor— And Chaos, that this, though there be your throne, Cannot bear weight of rock and stone to rebel archer, That which I am tied to seek, dear honor, Your vary mercy that there I, Here too, am slain! Damn. Creep shit, huh. Yeah. Why does Colbert get all the best parts?! Because he's capable of reading these types of monologues from cue cards! That circuit. He has a bigger cause than you know. [Redacted] It wasn't that I thought I was actively being watched, but more along the lines of knowing for a Friday, my mind wouldn't drift elsewhere and upward beyond, to the sixth, seventh, 8th or 15th floors— or whatever other crazy shit was apparently above them. Secret places I knew of and often thought about, but not too hard. It boggled my mind what was beyond and out of focus from the lower realms of New York, where it was dark and often dirty and hurtful to even wander. My breaths became deep and hollow; They won't turn your face to you, But they will burn through your whole world, wanting you undone Following sealing knives, half have no concious And tethered tongues— This is Levels, Watch us This is Levels, On your mark, This is levels, Christ conscious, This is Levels, Boats on the dock, Storm water, Pure thoughts of harm, But also luck, Drifting in that same water, Ducks, Not known in here our land, or others. You are no longer closer nor called for what you want It doesn't get that much more simple, nor more complex It doesn't get less disheveled than ‘anyway.' I suffer surface just to suffice this sauna trap It doesn't get any less leveled that two tall towers, September 11th. It doesn't get differentiated or dismissed, either, Without press involvement You got to love an easy bake oven and a handful of drama; You've got to love the plausible options for objections and motions to show cause You have got to love old folks and hard laughs, got to! You've got to love the cosmos for at least trying to show us God back, Though god turned back on us a month ago, Or so it was written More hard times And more cold half's And limbs lost, and marks and mauve and cranberry fortunes. More dusks and more dawns and more mortals but no heart left; No call to arms if you were worn backwards for your half. Now time for the calm but the ball bearings not lose but close hard down when you tip the nose up not to dive but force up the wheels as lifting planes does but you are donuts and dusk and dawn, and you are clutching stones in pockets, Four for corners of those the rock has, And that, North south, East west, And these days give gratitude, For wire stakes and high makes this time for more time deaf authors, Still no mortal walk has I, And still indifference to her call, my fortune is in death which may be cause to no one to suffer, As I have not love, And I have not friends, And I have not bonded and therefore this betrayal from where there speaks my meadow and assault have again lied, as devil does against all time. And so I smile, there, and welcome death, form withered birds did wander and then, before my eyes evolved to dust which then did sparkle, And there setting into scattered grains of sand. For which her shores were thought of, not as birds, but sure enough as rocks to till and thunder; And magnanimous waves you did there found I, Making graves and also these as caves, and banks, and ways to think her mazes as a construct. So now there, you are conformed, And all but may you came to offer. So there then shall tipping this and waves had planted oceans from my martyrs, And so again I called to brothers and also the fathers formed, as I had thought to know, these times and others as a motion [to show cause] So shattered banks and blanks my checkbook, scattered eyes though blue have yet been battered black and darkened; And also that became of which her office was unboxed, there was no work there, For her thoughts had caused the forests and winds to suffer from her art, therefore. There is no homeland, now or here or either, Shall I wonder? And then frayed her mark and also frayed this flag did fly for shame and horror. So there, did also Chaos sit and lack and gripping rope upon there crosses, also did my eye to mind, Him to a rope, but had departed. So I watched him hang from the noose, Though loosened grasp from known the ballet dancer, also then became the rabbit This of past and present. Ah, Fuck with me. I want you to. Aye aye. What is his power? Just wait for it… I don't think this is what you want it to— Just wait. Just listen? Listen to what? The man is just— blabbering. The cadence in his voice though; it's a rhythm. What, The cadence! In his voice— Mm. McDonald's. Okay?! But why are you saying—? Wait a minute. Wait what?! Play the tape back, and boost the audio. What for. Just do it, Mark. This costs a fortune and he's taking up all of our— THE MAN IN THE BOX has exploded. — time. What just happened. I told you he would do it. And we missed it. I don't get it. Where is he? There's no way of knowing yet. Check the grid. It's not… that simple…. Well then! Check the cadence. Or something ! Whatever you said. Jesus, I hate these alien motherfuckers! He's not an “alie What—? He's just— I mean— I do not understand. —he's human he's just— these ancients are gifted with— [sort of] Gifted?! You call that gifted?! He exploded into a fireball of feathers and— whatever this is— what is it?! It appears to be volcanic ash, sir. WHAT?! I'm moving backwards, forwards, backwards— forward time and time is dust from now on, I am in the end of my shattered and half lived life, Though bonded body to not my soul, which seeks not love and light, the morsels of the marker of my kind, And this to fill my aching desire to—- — now you've gotta run. From what? THE— AAAAhahsHAHSHjhabdbsnNadbdbamamBSBDNAGAGHAHghahsbabahaa!! WHAT WAS THAT. I DONT KNOW. I JUST HAD SIX ORGASMS. [BLACKOUT.] {Enter The Multiverse} DANE COOK wakes up from a VERY HARD NAP. …what just happened? This is your fault. You caused that. Okay. Gun in my face. I've had things, but not that. Get up. Jesus Christ. Just calm down. This is my calm. [The Festival Project ™] Do not panic. What the fuck are you telling me. Just stay calm. Do not panic. Don't panic what! That. Oh. You showed us what you are. No I did not. You want that? Uh… CC Just when you think you have me all figured out, I promise, it's not that. He has a gun! Fall back! Oh shitsauce, what in the fuck is going on! I may have had to stop and think for a moment ‘Where the fuck was I going?” The problem was I knew I already had the answer, and it was “Nowhere, fast.” Maybe even faster than ever. That hollow pit inside my stomach was calm now because most of all, I wasn't on the subway, I was on autopilot somewhere way far off from my body. Train me not, For this I die as one and always Sure to come for what is known and also for my martyr. Soon to fall I, bitter from the rock And drifting intermittent conscious, The constant not to known, But just a trough to all our horses. So this shame and guilt and rit and raft which I whitewater, so then to shall be betrayed as so they say I am, for now and onward. So her force is death and her tip have sung and those caves we made were of not fortune, but gloom and pity, merriment and pepper peer to socket and For now, my broken. Withered here and there And for to curse, But not to save my cycle, Dim this light for this I offer sacrament, Married waves and crevices of canyons I had watered, and then to twist of pine and though my time was won as always, want. The tip and twist of time would trim her down of those as slaughtered. Giving time and giving hate, and giving twins, And giving tin and giving golden graves, for maids And golden trophies. Giving taste and giving waste and giving ghosts wool coats for courthouses, Giving dim and dinner to these flames for which were ordered, have I. Giving those is taste and giving those is feasts, and giving those is masonry, created in her honor; Giving those is peace and wars, And to left ties, a peril force And giving these is tales and miners Trapped in these there caves as though you drift in barren lands. Well! Well. If I don't know who it is And I don't know what it is What I can't catch Man, Just leave the the fuck alone already, Would you? I have to wonder why I even come here, Full frozen How I'm running on low fuel, But just a sure to fact— (((Huh.))) Yeah, I recognize that dudes voice at this point Alright, maybe I am being followed. Yeah, that can't be a coincidence. It could. It is the rock. No it couldn't, Cause it's the rock. INT. ROCKEFELLER PLAZA. SUNRISE Okay, it's pretty from every angle! My fingers are frozen. Can I go inside now?! Yes. Here is the entrance. Jesus Christ! {Enter The Multiverse} Jesus All Day Christ. What are you looking at? I don't know yet. L E G E N D S It's pizza time. It's Kimmel time. [redacted] These are dangerous thoughts. Oh no, I turned my mind off. I love Kimmel, but I lost focus. Maybe this was the hour I needed without timing my life out. Then again, I did just recently watch him burst into flames in my living room. I have to wonder what that's about. Socumopolus Open On The Operating Table. Symposium, 2025/2026 TBA -Ū. Prod. By Blū Tha Gürū Symposium is a concept album that reinterprets the ancient Greek tradition of philosophical dialogue for the modern age. Taking its name from Plato's seminal text, which structured profound conversations about Love (Eros) as a series of distinct speeches, this album presents a series of intense, mythic narratives—the tracks—that each serve as a unique speech on the nature of consciousness, suffering, and transcendence. The album's unconventional structure, with initial tracks sporting double titles (e.g., forgetmenots.//follow through.), reflects the complex philosophical dualism explored throughout the work—the conflict between the body and the mind, the real and the dream, the past and the imperative to move forward. Each long-form track is a deep dive into an extreme mental state, an attempt to define the core truth of existence through an absurd or heightened reality. [Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table] This track is a visceral representation of the album's Platonic core. It is a grueling philosophical thought experiment set to music made to be experienced as though sifting through a gallery; as interpretive art rather than festival minded electronic dance music. ‘Socumolopus' opens in the uncomfortable and disjointed stairway of becoming undone at the midst of a medical mercy— unable to move or act with the understanding and awareness of a total loss of autonomy and control. A complete paralysis, but not of thought. Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table tells the story of a man undergoing high-risk, life-saving surgery. Due to a failure in anesthesia, he is trapped in a state of conscious paralysis—unable to alert the surgeons, yet fully aware as the operation unfolds. Indeed he reaches a certain purgatory of sorts and a certain death, as he becomes outward of himself enough to realize he knows nothing of this self, even his own name which he is called. He is now only Socumopolus. He is forced to watch his own body being opened, simultaneously experiencing the surgery from the table and from an out-of-body perspective above., however, once the initial shock of the blood and gore of his organs unraveling on the table before him, he drifts between lucid galaxies and worlds, traveling beyond all known time. His consciousness drifts in a purgatory spanning what is hours, but is rather eons in his own unaligned infinite outer consciousness, mingling the visceral reality of the operating room with non-sequitur dreams and the background noise of the hospital's televisions, and in and out of worlds alike; but also unknown. Symposium: A Concept Theory The track is a direct musical translation of Plato's Dualism—the belief that the mind/soul is separate from the physical body. [The Body] The character's physical being is the object of suffering (the operating table), imperfect and subject to the knife. [The Soul] His consciousness detaches, viewing the scene from above—this is the transcendent perspective, attempting to find "The Form of Truth" outside the confines of the suffering body. The character's hours-long, suspended state—neither fully alive nor dead, neither fully conscious nor dreaming—is the album's metaphor for the Ladder of Ascent in the Symposium. He is stuck in the intermediate steps, struggling between the earthly, mortal reality and the potential for a higher, purer vision, while the surrounding hospital noise and fragmented dreams represent the strange, sometimes absurd "speeches" (like Aristophanes' myth) that interrupt the pursuit of ultimate truth. In Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table, the operating room becomes the stage for a private, intense symposium on what it means to be aware when the self is literally dismantled. The surreality is not in the musicality, but the concept of the artwork itself, which reads most like an awkward statue or sculpture stationed distinctly in the way of a place you least expected, or perhaps even dead-center your normal course. It blocks the path with the cause to force you to think of creating an alternate route, or to travel or explore beyond what is familiar or known— or perhaps— just to force you to think at all when you may suppose the rest can just be turned off, as you cross out or autopilot and into a newfound structure for your own immortal cause. Thank You for Listening. Chroma 111. The Shoestring Theory. Copyright © The Complex Collective 2025 The Festival Project, Inc. ™ All rights reserved. Chroma111. Copyright © The Complex Collective 2025. [The Festival Project, Inc. ™] All rights reserved. UNAUTHORIZED REPRODUCTION OR DISTRIBUTION IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED BY LAW. INFRIGMENT IS PUNSHABLE BY FEDERAL LAW

I, sir, I honor you my proxy And what will with what you make take of that, my beast and brawn affronted; That to no matter to which I may stand as though offered to the Gods, I am at bare my force and wary feast upon thy eyes as swarms, And then to no may have you since! I am at all, my eye, your arm, And hallowed crucifix! CHAOS shatters into a FIRE of FEATHERED fury and precedent mercury of volcanic embering magma and sparse clouds of silver and gold, while though first bleeding from the mouth he is engulfed in flame at once, becoming not unlike the Phoenix, a galaxy into his own forever escaping and never ending realms. Ahhh, you're right. YO WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST SEE? That's ludicrous! ah huh, I know, right. You took all that? Yep. {Enter The Multiverse} Sire, Your honor. I am bound. I have been forged. The crown. Certainly. Your high marks! Aye… You've been betrayed. …To no doubt. I am obliged to confront, your majesty, at all hours and in this your fortress— —your honor— And Chaos, that this, though there be your throne, Cannot bear weight of rock and stone to rebel archer, That which I am tied to seek, dear honor, Your vary mercy that there I, Here too, am slain! Damn. Creep shit, huh. Yeah. Why does Colbert get all the best parts?! Because he's capable of reading these types of monologues from cue cards! That circuit. He has a bigger cause than you know. [Redacted] It wasn't that I thought I was actively being watched, but more along the lines of knowing for a Friday, my mind wouldn't drift elsewhere and upward beyond, to the sixth, seventh, 8th or 15th floors— or whatever other crazy shit was apparently above them. Secret places I knew of and often thought about, but not too hard. It boggled my mind what was beyond and out of focus from the lower realms of New York, where it was dark and often dirty and hurtful to even wander. My breaths became deep and hollow; They won't turn your face to you, But they will burn through your whole world, wanting you undone Following sealing knives, half have no concious And tethered tongues— This is Levels, Watch us This is Levels, On your mark, This is levels, Christ conscious, This is Levels, Boats on the dock, Storm water, Pure thoughts of harm, But also luck, Drifting in that same water, Ducks, Not known in here our land, or others. You are no longer closer nor called for what you want It doesn't get that much more simple, nor more complex It doesn't get less disheveled than ‘anyway.' I suffer surface just to suffice this sauna trap It doesn't get any less leveled that two tall towers, September 11th. It doesn't get differentiated or dismissed, either, Without press involvement You got to love an easy bake oven and a handful of drama; You've got to love the plausible options for objections and motions to show cause You have got to love old folks and hard laughs, got to! You've got to love the cosmos for at least trying to show us God back, Though god turned back on us a month ago, Or so it was written More hard times And more cold half's And limbs lost, and marks and mauve and cranberry fortunes. More dusks and more dawns and more mortals but no heart left; No call to arms if you were worn backwards for your half. Now time for the calm but the ball bearings not lose but close hard down when you tip the nose up not to dive but force up the wheels as lifting planes does but you are donuts and dusk and dawn, and you are clutching stones in pockets, Four for corners of those the rock has, And that, North south, East west, And these days give gratitude, For wire stakes and high makes this time for more time deaf authors, Still no mortal walk has I, And still indifference to her call, my fortune is in death which may be cause to no one to suffer, As I have not love, And I have not friends, And I have not bonded and therefore this betrayal from where there speaks my meadow and assault have again lied, as devil does against all time. And so I smile, there, and welcome death, form withered birds did wander and then, before my eyes evolved to dust which then did sparkle, And there setting into scattered grains of sand. For which her shores were thought of, not as birds, but sure enough as rocks to till and thunder; And magnanimous waves you did there found I, Making graves and also these as caves, and banks, and ways to think her mazes as a construct. So now there, you are conformed, And all but may you came to offer. So there then shall tipping this and waves had planted oceans from my martyrs, And so again I called to brothers and also the fathers formed, as I had thought to know, these times and others as a motion [to show cause] So shattered banks and blanks my checkbook, scattered eyes though blue have yet been battered black and darkened; And also that became of which her office was unboxed, there was no work there, For her thoughts had caused the forests and winds to suffer from her art, therefore. There is no homeland, now or here or either, Shall I wonder? And then frayed her mark and also frayed this flag did fly for shame and horror. So there, did also Chaos sit and lack and gripping rope upon there crosses, also did my eye to mind, Him to a rope, but had departed. So I watched him hang from the noose, Though loosened grasp from known the ballet dancer, also then became the rabbit This of past and present. Ah, Fuck with me. I want you to. Aye aye. What is his power? Just wait for it… I don't think this is what you want it to— Just wait. Just listen? Listen to what? The man is just— blabbering. The cadence in his voice though; it's a rhythm. What, The cadence! In his voice— Mm. McDonald's. Okay?! But why are you saying—? Wait a minute. Wait what?! Play the tape back, and boost the audio. What for. Just do it, Mark. This costs a fortune and he's taking up all of our— THE MAN IN THE BOX has exploded. — time. What just happened. I told you he would do it. And we missed it. I don't get it. Where is he? There's no way of knowing yet. Check the grid. It's not… that simple…. Well then! Check the cadence. Or something ! Whatever you said. Jesus, I hate these alien motherfuckers! He's not an “alie What—? He's just— I mean— I do not understand. —he's human he's just— these ancients are gifted with— [sort of] Gifted?! You call that gifted?! He exploded into a fireball of feathers and— whatever this is— what is it?! It appears to be volcanic ash, sir. WHAT?! I'm moving backwards, forwards, backwards— forward time and time is dust from now on, I am in the end of my shattered and half lived life, Though bonded body to not my soul, which seeks not love and light, the morsels of the marker of my kind, And this to fill my aching desire to—- — now you've gotta run. From what? THE— AAAAhahsHAHSHjhabdbsnNadbdbamamBSBDNAGAGHAHghahsbabahaa!! WHAT WAS THAT. I DONT KNOW. I JUST HAD SIX ORGASMS. [BLACKOUT.] {Enter The Multiverse} DANE COOK wakes up from a VERY HARD NAP. …what just happened? This is your fault. You caused that. Okay. Gun in my face. I've had things, but not that. Get up. Jesus Christ. Just calm down. This is my calm. [The Festival Project ™] Do not panic. What the fuck are you telling me. Just stay calm. Do not panic. Don't panic what! That. Oh. You showed us what you are. No I did not. You want that? Uh… CC Just when you think you have me all figured out, I promise, it's not that. He has a gun! Fall back! Oh shitsauce, what in the fuck is going on! I may have had to stop and think for a moment ‘Where the fuck was I going?” The problem was I knew I already had the answer, and it was “Nowhere, fast.” Maybe even faster than ever. That hollow pit inside my stomach was calm now because most of all, I wasn't on the subway, I was on autopilot somewhere way far off from my body. Train me not, For this I die as one and always Sure to come for what is known and also for my martyr. Soon to fall I, bitter from the rock And drifting intermittent conscious, The constant not to known, But just a trough to all our horses. So this shame and guilt and rit and raft which I whitewater, so then to shall be betrayed as so they say I am, for now and onward. So her force is death and her tip have sung and those caves we made were of not fortune, but gloom and pity, merriment and pepper peer to socket and For now, my broken. Withered here and there And for to curse, But not to save my cycle, Dim this light for this I offer sacrament, Married waves and crevices of canyons I had watered, and then to twist of pine and though my time was won as always, want. The tip and twist of time would trim her down of those as slaughtered. Giving time and giving hate, and giving twins, And giving tin and giving golden graves, for maids And golden trophies. Giving taste and giving waste and giving ghosts wool coats for courthouses, Giving dim and dinner to these flames for which were ordered, have I. Giving those is taste and giving those is feasts, and giving those is masonry, created in her honor; Giving those is peace and wars, And to left ties, a peril force And giving these is tales and miners Trapped in these there caves as though you drift in barren lands. Well! Well. If I don't know who it is And I don't know what it is What I can't catch Man, Just leave the the fuck alone already, Would you? I have to wonder why I even come here, Full frozen How I'm running on low fuel, But just a sure to fact— (((Huh.))) Yeah, I recognize that dudes voice at this point Alright, maybe I am being followed. Yeah, that can't be a coincidence. It could. It is the rock. No it couldn't, Cause it's the rock. INT. ROCKEFELLER PLAZA. SUNRISE Okay, it's pretty from every angle! My fingers are frozen. Can I go inside now?! Yes. Here is the entrance. Jesus Christ! {Enter The Multiverse} Jesus All Day Christ. What are you looking at? I don't know yet. L E G E N D S It's pizza time. It's Kimmel time. [redacted] These are dangerous thoughts. Oh no, I turned my mind off. I love Kimmel, but I lost focus. Maybe this was the hour I needed without timing my life out. Then again, I did just recently watch him burst into flames in my living room. I have to wonder what that's about. Socumopolus Open On The Operating Table. Symposium, 2025/2026 TBA -Ū. Prod. By Blū Tha Gürū Symposium is a concept album that reinterprets the ancient Greek tradition of philosophical dialogue for the modern age. Taking its name from Plato's seminal text, which structured profound conversations about Love (Eros) as a series of distinct speeches, this album presents a series of intense, mythic narratives—the tracks—that each serve as a unique speech on the nature of consciousness, suffering, and transcendence. The album's unconventional structure, with initial tracks sporting double titles (e.g., forgetmenots.//follow through.), reflects the complex philosophical dualism explored throughout the work—the conflict between the body and the mind, the real and the dream, the past and the imperative to move forward. Each long-form track is a deep dive into an extreme mental state, an attempt to define the core truth of existence through an absurd or heightened reality. [Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table] This track is a visceral representation of the album's Platonic core. It is a grueling philosophical thought experiment set to music made to be experienced as though sifting through a gallery; as interpretive art rather than festival minded electronic dance music. ‘Socumolopus' opens in the uncomfortable and disjointed stairway of becoming undone at the midst of a medical mercy— unable to move or act with the understanding and awareness of a total loss of autonomy and control. A complete paralysis, but not of thought. Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table tells the story of a man undergoing high-risk, life-saving surgery. Due to a failure in anesthesia, he is trapped in a state of conscious paralysis—unable to alert the surgeons, yet fully aware as the operation unfolds. Indeed he reaches a certain purgatory of sorts and a certain death, as he becomes outward of himself enough to realize he knows nothing of this self, even his own name which he is called. He is now only Socumopolus. He is forced to watch his own body being opened, simultaneously experiencing the surgery from the table and from an out-of-body perspective above., however, once the initial shock of the blood and gore of his organs unraveling on the table before him, he drifts between lucid galaxies and worlds, traveling beyond all known time. His consciousness drifts in a purgatory spanning what is hours, but is rather eons in his own unaligned infinite outer consciousness, mingling the visceral reality of the operating room with non-sequitur dreams and the background noise of the hospital's televisions, and in and out of worlds alike; but also unknown. Symposium: A Concept Theory The track is a direct musical translation of Plato's Dualism—the belief that the mind/soul is separate from the physical body. [The Body] The character's physical being is the object of suffering (the operating table), imperfect and subject to the knife. [The Soul] His consciousness detaches, viewing the scene from above—this is the transcendent perspective, attempting to find "The Form of Truth" outside the confines of the suffering body. The character's hours-long, suspended state—neither fully alive nor dead, neither fully conscious nor dreaming—is the album's metaphor for the Ladder of Ascent in the Symposium. He is stuck in the intermediate steps, struggling between the earthly, mortal reality and the potential for a higher, purer vision, while the surrounding hospital noise and fragmented dreams represent the strange, sometimes absurd "speeches" (like Aristophanes' myth) that interrupt the pursuit of ultimate truth. In Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table, the operating room becomes the stage for a private, intense symposium on what it means to be aware when the self is literally dismantled. The surreality is not in the musicality, but the concept of the artwork itself, which reads most like an awkward statue or sculpture stationed distinctly in the way of a place you least expected, or perhaps even dead-center your normal course. It blocks the path with the cause to force you to think of creating an alternate route, or to travel or explore beyond what is familiar or known— or perhaps— just to force you to think at all when you may suppose the rest can just be turned off, as you cross out or autopilot and into a newfound structure for your own immortal cause. Thank You for Listening. Chroma 111. The Shoestring Theory. Copyright © The Complex Collective 2025 The Festival Project, Inc. ™ All rights reserved. Chroma111. Copyright © The Complex Collective 2025. [The Festival Project, Inc. ™] All rights reserved. UNAUTHORIZED REPRODUCTION OR DISTRIBUTION IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED BY LAW. INFRIGMENT IS PUNSHABLE BY FEDERAL LAW

I, sir, I honor you my proxy And what will with what you make take of that, my beast and brawn affronted; That to no matter to which I may stand as though offered to the Gods, I am at bare my force and wary feast upon thy eyes as swarms, And then to no may have you since! I am at all, my eye, your arm, And hallowed crucifix! CHAOS shatters into a FIRE of FEATHERED fury and precedent mercury of volcanic embering magma and sparse clouds of silver and gold, while though first bleeding from the mouth he is engulfed in flame at once, becoming not unlike the Phoenix, a galaxy into his own forever escaping and never ending realms. Ahhh, you're right. YO WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST SEE? That's ludicrous! ah huh, I know, right. You took all that? Yep. {Enter The Multiverse} Sire, Your honor. I am bound. I have been forged. The crown. Certainly. Your high marks! Aye… You've been betrayed. …To no doubt. I am obliged to confront, your majesty, at all hours and in this your fortress— —your honor— And Chaos, that this, though there be your throne, Cannot bear weight of rock and stone to rebel archer, That which I am tied to seek, dear honor, Your vary mercy that there I, Here too, am slain! Damn. Creep shit, huh. Yeah. Why does Colbert get all the best parts?! Because he's capable of reading these types of monologues from cue cards! That circuit. He has a bigger cause than you know. [Redacted] It wasn't that I thought I was actively being watched, but more along the lines of knowing for a Friday, my mind wouldn't drift elsewhere and upward beyond, to the sixth, seventh, 8th or 15th floors— or whatever other crazy shit was apparently above them. Secret places I knew of and often thought about, but not too hard. It boggled my mind what was beyond and out of focus from the lower realms of New York, where it was dark and often dirty and hurtful to even wander. My breaths became deep and hollow; They won't turn your face to you, But they will burn through your whole world, wanting you undone Following sealing knives, half have no concious And tethered tongues— This is Levels, Watch us This is Levels, On your mark, This is levels, Christ conscious, This is Levels, Boats on the dock, Storm water, Pure thoughts of harm, But also luck, Drifting in that same water, Ducks, Not known in here our land, or others. You are no longer closer nor called for what you want It doesn't get that much more simple, nor more complex It doesn't get less disheveled than ‘anyway.' I suffer surface just to suffice this sauna trap It doesn't get any less leveled that two tall towers, September 11th. It doesn't get differentiated or dismissed, either, Without press involvement You got to love an easy bake oven and a handful of drama; You've got to love the plausible options for objections and motions to show cause You have got to love old folks and hard laughs, got to! You've got to love the cosmos for at least trying to show us God back, Though god turned back on us a month ago, Or so it was written More hard times And more cold half's And limbs lost, and marks and mauve and cranberry fortunes. More dusks and more dawns and more mortals but no heart left; No call to arms if you were worn backwards for your half. Now time for the calm but the ball bearings not lose but close hard down when you tip the nose up not to dive but force up the wheels as lifting planes does but you are donuts and dusk and dawn, and you are clutching stones in pockets, Four for corners of those the rock has, And that, North south, East west, And these days give gratitude, For wire stakes and high makes this time for more time deaf authors, Still no mortal walk has I, And still indifference to her call, my fortune is in death which may be cause to no one to suffer, As I have not love, And I have not friends, And I have not bonded and therefore this betrayal from where there speaks my meadow and assault have again lied, as devil does against all time. And so I smile, there, and welcome death, form withered birds did wander and then, before my eyes evolved to dust which then did sparkle, And there setting into scattered grains of sand. For which her shores were thought of, not as birds, but sure enough as rocks to till and thunder; And magnanimous waves you did there found I, Making graves and also these as caves, and banks, and ways to think her mazes as a construct. So now there, you are conformed, And all but may you came to offer. So there then shall tipping this and waves had planted oceans from my martyrs, And so again I called to brothers and also the fathers formed, as I had thought to know, these times and others as a motion [to show cause] So shattered banks and blanks my checkbook, scattered eyes though blue have yet been battered black and darkened; And also that became of which her office was unboxed, there was no work there, For her thoughts had caused the forests and winds to suffer from her art, therefore. There is no homeland, now or here or either, Shall I wonder? And then frayed her mark and also frayed this flag did fly for shame and horror. So there, did also Chaos sit and lack and gripping rope upon there crosses, also did my eye to mind, Him to a rope, but had departed. So I watched him hang from the noose, Though loosened grasp from known the ballet dancer, also then became the rabbit This of past and present. Ah, Fuck with me. I want you to. Aye aye. What is his power? Just wait for it… I don't think this is what you want it to— Just wait. Just listen? Listen to what? The man is just— blabbering. The cadence in his voice though; it's a rhythm. What, The cadence! In his voice— Mm. McDonald's. Okay?! But why are you saying—? Wait a minute. Wait what?! Play the tape back, and boost the audio. What for. Just do it, Mark. This costs a fortune and he's taking up all of our— THE MAN IN THE BOX has exploded. — time. What just happened. I told you he would do it. And we missed it. I don't get it. Where is he? There's no way of knowing yet. Check the grid. It's not… that simple…. Well then! Check the cadence. Or something ! Whatever you said. Jesus, I hate these alien motherfuckers! He's not an “alie What—? He's just— I mean— I do not understand. —he's human he's just— these ancients are gifted with— [sort of] Gifted?! You call that gifted?! He exploded into a fireball of feathers and— whatever this is— what is it?! It appears to be volcanic ash, sir. WHAT?! I'm moving backwards, forwards, backwards— forward time and time is dust from now on, I am in the end of my shattered and half lived life, Though bonded body to not my soul, which seeks not love and light, the morsels of the marker of my kind, And this to fill my aching desire to—- — now you've gotta run. From what? THE— AAAAhahsHAHSHjhabdbsnNadbdbamamBSBDNAGAGHAHghahsbabahaa!! WHAT WAS THAT. I DONT KNOW. I JUST HAD SIX ORGASMS. [BLACKOUT.] {Enter The Multiverse} DANE COOK wakes up from a VERY HARD NAP. …what just happened? This is your fault. You caused that. Okay. Gun in my face. I've had things, but not that. Get up. Jesus Christ. Just calm down. This is my calm. [The Festival Project ™] Do not panic. What the fuck are you telling me. Just stay calm. Do not panic. Don't panic what! That. Oh. You showed us what you are. No I did not. You want that? Uh… CC Just when you think you have me all figured out, I promise, it's not that. He has a gun! Fall back! Oh shitsauce, what in the fuck is going on! I may have had to stop and think for a moment ‘Where the fuck was I going?” The problem was I knew I already had the answer, and it was “Nowhere, fast.” Maybe even faster than ever. That hollow pit inside my stomach was calm now because most of all, I wasn't on the subway, I was on autopilot somewhere way far off from my body. Train me not, For this I die as one and always Sure to come for what is known and also for my martyr. Soon to fall I, bitter from the rock And drifting intermittent conscious, The constant not to known, But just a trough to all our horses. So this shame and guilt and rit and raft which I whitewater, so then to shall be betrayed as so they say I am, for now and onward. So her force is death and her tip have sung and those caves we made were of not fortune, but gloom and pity, merriment and pepper peer to socket and For now, my broken. Withered here and there And for to curse, But not to save my cycle, Dim this light for this I offer sacrament, Married waves and crevices of canyons I had watered, and then to twist of pine and though my time was won as always, want. The tip and twist of time would trim her down of those as slaughtered. Giving time and giving hate, and giving twins, And giving tin and giving golden graves, for maids And golden trophies. Giving taste and giving waste and giving ghosts wool coats for courthouses, Giving dim and dinner to these flames for which were ordered, have I. Giving those is taste and giving those is feasts, and giving those is masonry, created in her honor; Giving those is peace and wars, And to left ties, a peril force And giving these is tales and miners Trapped in these there caves as though you drift in barren lands. Well! Well. If I don't know who it is And I don't know what it is What I can't catch Man, Just leave the the fuck alone already, Would you? I have to wonder why I even come here, Full frozen How I'm running on low fuel, But just a sure to fact— (((Huh.))) Yeah, I recognize that dudes voice at this point Alright, maybe I am being followed. Yeah, that can't be a coincidence. It could. It is the rock. No it couldn't, Cause it's the rock. INT. ROCKEFELLER PLAZA. SUNRISE Okay, it's pretty from every angle! My fingers are frozen. Can I go inside now?! Yes. Here is the entrance. Jesus Christ! {Enter The Multiverse} Jesus All Day Christ. What are you looking at? I don't know yet. L E G E N D S It's pizza time. It's Kimmel time. [redacted] These are dangerous thoughts. Oh no, I turned my mind off. I love Kimmel, but I lost focus. Maybe this was the hour I needed without timing my life out. Then again, I did just recently watch him burst into flames in my living room. I have to wonder what that's about. Socumopolus Open On The Operating Table. Symposium, 2025/2026 TBA -Ū. Prod. By Blū Tha Gürū Symposium is a concept album that reinterprets the ancient Greek tradition of philosophical dialogue for the modern age. Taking its name from Plato's seminal text, which structured profound conversations about Love (Eros) as a series of distinct speeches, this album presents a series of intense, mythic narratives—the tracks—that each serve as a unique speech on the nature of consciousness, suffering, and transcendence. The album's unconventional structure, with initial tracks sporting double titles (e.g., forgetmenots.//follow through.), reflects the complex philosophical dualism explored throughout the work—the conflict between the body and the mind, the real and the dream, the past and the imperative to move forward. Each long-form track is a deep dive into an extreme mental state, an attempt to define the core truth of existence through an absurd or heightened reality. [Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table] This track is a visceral representation of the album's Platonic core. It is a grueling philosophical thought experiment set to music made to be experienced as though sifting through a gallery; as interpretive art rather than festival minded electronic dance music. ‘Socumolopus' opens in the uncomfortable and disjointed stairway of becoming undone at the midst of a medical mercy— unable to move or act with the understanding and awareness of a total loss of autonomy and control. A complete paralysis, but not of thought. Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table tells the story of a man undergoing high-risk, life-saving surgery. Due to a failure in anesthesia, he is trapped in a state of conscious paralysis—unable to alert the surgeons, yet fully aware as the operation unfolds. Indeed he reaches a certain purgatory of sorts and a certain death, as he becomes outward of himself enough to realize he knows nothing of this self, even his own name which he is called. He is now only Socumopolus. He is forced to watch his own body being opened, simultaneously experiencing the surgery from the table and from an out-of-body perspective above., however, once the initial shock of the blood and gore of his organs unraveling on the table before him, he drifts between lucid galaxies and worlds, traveling beyond all known time. His consciousness drifts in a purgatory spanning what is hours, but is rather eons in his own unaligned infinite outer consciousness, mingling the visceral reality of the operating room with non-sequitur dreams and the background noise of the hospital's televisions, and in and out of worlds alike; but also unknown. Symposium: A Concept Theory The track is a direct musical translation of Plato's Dualism—the belief that the mind/soul is separate from the physical body. [The Body] The character's physical being is the object of suffering (the operating table), imperfect and subject to the knife. [The Soul] His consciousness detaches, viewing the scene from above—this is the transcendent perspective, attempting to find "The Form of Truth" outside the confines of the suffering body. The character's hours-long, suspended state—neither fully alive nor dead, neither fully conscious nor dreaming—is the album's metaphor for the Ladder of Ascent in the Symposium. He is stuck in the intermediate steps, struggling between the earthly, mortal reality and the potential for a higher, purer vision, while the surrounding hospital noise and fragmented dreams represent the strange, sometimes absurd "speeches" (like Aristophanes' myth) that interrupt the pursuit of ultimate truth. In Socumopolus Open On the Operating Table, the operating room becomes the stage for a private, intense symposium on what it means to be aware when the self is literally dismantled. The surreality is not in the musicality, but the concept of the artwork itself, which reads most like an awkward statue or sculpture stationed distinctly in the way of a place you least expected, or perhaps even dead-center your normal course. It blocks the path with the cause to force you to think of creating an alternate route, or to travel or explore beyond what is familiar or known— or perhaps— just to force you to think at all when you may suppose the rest can just be turned off, as you cross out or autopilot and into a newfound structure for your own immortal cause. Thank You for Listening. Chroma 111. The Shoestring Theory. Copyright © The Complex Collective 2025 The Festival Project, Inc. ™ All rights reserved. Chroma111. Copyright © The Complex Collective 2025. [The Festival Project, Inc. ™] All rights reserved. UNAUTHORIZED REPRODUCTION OR DISTRIBUTION IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED BY LAW. INFRIGMENT IS PUNSHABLE BY FEDERAL LAW

How much money has water damage cost your owners? How much time and money could you save if you were able to detect issues within a property before they became a larger problem?  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Nadav Schnall to explore how innovative water and gas leak detection systems are transforming residential property management and to share how these technologies can prevent costly damage, protect tenants, and streamline maintenance operations for property managers. You'll Learn [1:14] Nadav Schnall's Background in Property Management [05:06] Innovative Solutions for Leak Detection [11:07] Understanding the Technology Behind Pro Sentry [17:25] Implementing Smart Detection Systems Quotables "If something goes unchecked, somebody's out of town, there's a water leak, I mean, it can just do massive damage." "The responsibility of a property manager is to make sure the building is operating properly, to make sure it's operating efficiently, to mitigate damages, to mitigate risks." "Time is of the essence when something like this happens." Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Nadav Schnall (00:00) No need for displacement, no need to wake up in the middle of the night, come back to a flooded home. So we can solve all that   Jason Hull (00:05) All right. Welcome everybody. I am Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. We have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses.   helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profits, simplify operations. And we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. We are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry.   eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. Today, my guest is Nadav Schnall. Welcome, Nadav   Nadav Schnall (01:14) Thank you for having me, Jason.   Jason Hull (01:15) All right, so your company is called ProSentry. We're going to be getting into that. But before we chat about our topic today, which is protect, prevent, perform smart leak detection for modern property managers, tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into entrepreneurism and what finally led you.   Nadav Schnall (01:33) Sure, happy to provide some background. So my background is actually in property management. I was a property manager for about a decade for First Service Residential in New York City. I had their kind of luxury.   group or luxury division. So I did a lot of consulting for developers and lot of property management, opening buildings, know, placing staff, making sure buildings kind of transition from construction to operation. So that was really the lion's share of my background as it relates to property management. Then I went into and opened another company that had to do with the service industry, kind of fire suppression systems, mechanicals, kind of the   the heart of a building, so to speak. And that led me to connect with my co-founder and business partner, John Russ, who is a builder in New York City. I've known him for probably about 15 years. And we came together to do this idea. So really very much so kind of experiencing firsthand.   what we are trying to solve and that's kind how I got into the world of entrepreneurship and into the world of ProSentry   Jason Hull (02:35) Got it. All right. Thanks for the background. So you're an expert. This is your bio, an expert in smart building monitoring. We're going to chat about exploring how innovative water and gas leak detection systems are transforming residential property management and maybe share how these technologies can prevent costly damage, protect tenants, streamline maintenance operations for property managers from boosting safety to increasing operational efficiency.   And in today's episode, you'll get to learn how smart monitoring is reshaping the way you care for your properties and your bottom line. So cool. I'm excited to get into this. So, so now, Nadav, where, where do we start?   Nadav Schnall (03:15) Well, we can probably start in property management. And I can tell you how many times I would wake up in the morning and I'd be checking my phone and then find that I have emails from last night that there was a leak in the building or my super calling me at two o'clock in the morning saying, hey, we had a flood or someone, there was a construction going on and someone left a window open and some pipe froze.   Jason Hull (03:19) Okay.   Nadav Schnall (03:42) And so that's kind of where it started for me, kind of really looking into these operational issues, which in today's day and age with technology, you are able to solve. And so that's where the journey started for me is really trying to look at properties and saying, how can we help common day-to-day occurrences? More so you look at the insurance industries and that's one of the...   biggest pluses that we try to bring to the table is trying to helping buildings with insurance. Water leaks are non-weather related water leaks are typically the top three causes for insurance claims.   And many times it's the number one reason for insurance claims. And so you look at these things and you're saying, there is technology out there. There is ways to substantially reduce that. How do we do that, improve the day-to-day work of property managers?   reduce insurance claims for buildings, reduce insurance rates and premiums, and also improve the life of the residents and tenants that live within. No need for displacement, no need to wake up in the middle of the night, come back to a flooded home. So we can solve all that and we focus in the multifamily. That's kind of our main focus.   Jason Hull (04:53) Yeah, Yeah, I mean, if something goes unchecked, somebody's out of town, there's a water leak, I mean, it can just do massive damage. Yeah, so how do we mitigate that?   Nadav Schnall (05:04) Yeah, so I can tell you a little bit about the technology and what we do and how we do it. first of all, traditional systems that existed so far were really based on Wi-Fi, which is a big difference. And they were more geared towards maybe something that you would do for your house or maybe something you would do for your apartment.   But how do you resolve that in a multifamily world, right? Where even if I am the most responsible resident in the building and I put water leak detection and temperature and humidity and maybe gas, you put all detection technologies in your apartment, you can still get leaked on from your apartment above. Something can still happen. And you just said it, right? A resident that may be away. And we have this actually. is an actual...   know, claim that we were able to avoid. In a building, someone, you know, it was a vacant apartment, a realtor came in to show the apartment, walked out to the terrace. It was a classic wintery day. Didn't close the door all the way.   Realtor left, came in, blew the apartment door open and the temperatures started going down and going down and going down. Luckily that building had ProSentry and that building was notified when the temperatures hit about 50 degrees and the resident manager of that building got the notification today that doesn't sound right. Of course, checked the records, found out there was a vacant apartment, ran upstairs, saw that the door was open, was able to close the door, turn on the heat before frozen pipes. But otherwise you would have had frozen pipe and that could have easily knocked out 10 apartments   insurance claims and so on and so forth. So I think that's kind of one of the biggest areas where we can save. And the nice part about that is insurance carriers are starting to recognize us and starting to recognize that we are actually reducing claims inside buildings. We're doing that across the board. We recently did a study across 18 months. We took a bunch of properties and we wanted to see what happened in those properties across an 18 month period.   we alerted those properties to over 6,000 different types of water events, right? Whether it's water or, you know, could be some, some of it can be just be drizzling. Some of could be, you know, a condensate drain and an HVAC unit overflowing, right? So different types of leaks. And then we followed up with the properties. Not one of those buildings and any of those water events resulted in an insured claim.   And so we were able to actually prove to the insurance world that this is a risk mitigative tool and actually the service that we provide, we like to call it risk mitigation as a service. ⁓ And by doing that, we've been able to help several buildings either move from kind of E &S, Excessive Surplus insurance policies over to admitted carriers, which of course are substantially cheaper.   Jason Hull (07:27) Yeah.   Nadav Schnall (07:41) or just simply being able to reduce insurance rates, right? You presented a certain risk before, now you present this risk. And so it can help properties both on the operation side, the maintenance side, but also on the insurance side. And I know I said a lot.   Jason Hull (07:53) Yeah.   No, that's, no, that sounds very fascinating. So I can see how this would be very important. So if the insurance companies are not having to do anything on these claims, then you would think they would be very incentivized to get people to implement this.   Nadav Schnall (08:10) That's 100%. So in New York State, for example, where we have a lot of presidents, especially in New York City, we work with a number of carriers that provide anywhere from, this is on the homeowner side, but anywhere from 3 % up all the way up to 12 % premium reductions.   year over year on your homeowners insurance policy. So if you have a building and let's say there's 100 apartments, if you happen to be insured with one of these insurance carriers, you will receive a discount on your premium year over year. their ROI is right there. And then of course we can help on the underlying building insurance policy as well.   Jason Hull (08:50) Got it, okay. So what are the benefits for the, that's obviously a benefit for the property owner, right? What are the benefits for the property manager?   Nadav Schnall (09:00) So, I mean, the obvious would be peace of mind, right? Because at the end of the day, the responsibility of a property manager is to make sure the building is operating properly, to make sure it's operating efficiently, to mitigate damages, to mitigate risks.   And so the advantages of property managerial, first of all, you're able to see what happens in your entire building. So you'll have a dashboard. You'll be able to see each one of our sensing technologies. And I think we've heavily focused so far on water leak detection and maybe temperature detection, which is really, you know, these are one of our biggest sellers, but we do anything from water to gas to oil leaks, to mechanical malfunctions, environmental issues, even rodents. So we have a lot.   know, thermostat. So we have different types of technologies all surrounded under our platform. And so the property manager will be able to see all these sensing, all these sensors across this entire building on one, on one dashboard. It will substantially reduce damages, right? So from a...   to do share responsibility to the building. is very important, but more so it also gives peace of mind, right? That you know that this apartment or this building or this area, because a lot of our installations are mechanical equipment, right? We have a building that had a couple of leaks coming from the mechanical systems. Every time there was a leak there, it leaked into the elevators. The elevators went out, had to call the elevator company out, had to file another insurance claim. And every time that's there, the amount of time the property managers have to spend   to deal with an incident like this, right? It doesn't only start with mitigating the damage itself. You gotta mitigate the damage, you gotta communicate with all the apartment owners, you gotta let them know what's going on. Then they have repairs, they have to coordinate with contractors, they have to file insurance claims, they have to file reports, they have to talk to their boards or their building owners. So there's a lot there. By installing a system like this, it gives you lot of peace of mind and saves you a lot of time.   Jason Hull (10:46) So less damage, less work for the property manager, less stress in having to deal with frustrated owners, frustrated tenants. Yeah, so win-win all the way around. So you had mentioned a few things that this equipment can send for.   So could you go over all those for us?   Nadav Schnall (11:04) Yeah, sure. It's 100%.   So we have, you maybe I started off a little bit in the beginning, we talked about Wi-Fi, but I really complete that thought. So I can start high level. So.   First of all, what we use is use a technology called LoRaWAN. LoRaWAN stands for long range wide area network. So it's very similar to Wi-Fi in the sense that it is a wireless technology that we can communicate over this wireless network that it creates. But indifferent than Wi-Fi, has a couple of major differences, which is huge for buildings, huge for properties, right? Especially existing buildings where you're trying to retrofit a system, which of course you're very sensitive to, right? Because if you're...   You know, if you're doing property management in a multifamily residential building and you have to access every single apartment, no one wants to like start running electricity or opening walls. It has to be really easy to deploy. You come in and come out under 10 minutes. That's what you're looking to do. So this technology, LoRaWAN, what it does is it is a very strong frequency. So the advantage is it can penetrate brick, mortar, you know.   concrete, steel, whatever, whatever inside a building. And you can use one of these gateways. Gateways are similar to what we would call in the Wi-Fi world as like a router. So you would install one of those every maybe three to six floors, I would say, as opposed to a traditional router where you put it in an apartment, you have one for the entire apartment. The downside to it is that you can stream a lot of data on it.   So it's great for the world of IoT and the world of sensors because you don't have to put on that. You just need to say, what is the temperature? I having a leak? Do I have this or do I have something else? So that is a very, very important advantage that this technology has over traditional systems, which rely on Wi-Fi. The other big thing it has is that it's extremely energy efficient. So each one of our sensors will last for about 10 years on battery life. Whereas traditional Wi-Fi systems, probably have to replace the battery once a year, once every two years, depending on the system.   As far as our offering, so we have different liquid sensing technology, so oil and water. We also have gas detection. And for example, in New York City, they passed a law which was now tabled again, but they passed a law called Local Law 157. Every, you know,   apartment or building in New York City that had gas, had to have gas detection. So we were able to help those buildings as well. And so buildings that already had our system had to now comply with a new law, easily just put it on the system, no problem. Temperature humidity, we spoke about. We have rodents. We have different types of sensing. For example, if you want to see the levels of different tanks. So for example, you have a big water storage tank or you want to know what the capacity is of trash or different. So we have devices that can sense distance.   different sensors for different types of mechanical equipment to see where they go, what the status is, are they operating, are they not, are they in movement? Steam traps, we can tell you if a stream trap open. So there's a lot of stuff there. And I think one of the unique parts about ProSentry is that both me and my business partner, John, really come from the world.   And so we meet with supers, we meet with property managers and they say, hey, you know, I really want to understand how I can better see this or how I can do that. And that's what we developed. And so we go out and we figure out what sensing to cloud booth exists for the world and we customize them for the buildings themselves.   Jason Hull (14:15) Got it. Is this system also tie into some of the other sort of catastrophes besides water, like fire, smoke? ⁓   Nadav Schnall (14:23) So   we have a smoke and vape detector, but it is not what you would call your traditional carbon-fiber monoxide type of sensor. And that is because, first of all, it's a very saturated market. There's a lot of companies out there that provide. We have the ability to interface into it. It was just a conscious choice not to get into that yet.   Jason Hull (14:38) Yeah.   Nadav Schnall (14:47) Just because you know, it's more of a niche market and that's more of a very wide market. There's also a lot of regular   Jason Hull (14:52) Figure out smoking and   vaping is another thing. Like, maybe four terms, stuff like this.   Nadav Schnall (14:55) Yeah.   So that we do have on the property, on the platform. that is a great sensing technology, especially for like rental buildings or buildings that have passed no smoking laws in the building. So it can do vaping, it could do marijuana, it could do cigarette smoke. And so we've had that. actually, one of the reasons we developed it, again, speaking to property managers and building owners,   This is a West Coast property owner. he said, you know, one of my main reasons for non renewing leases in my building is because people smoke and people don't want to renew. And so that was one of the reasons we went out. came out with this, with a sensing technology and it can, you know, it kind of tattles on the smokers, but it works with that kind of building. Right. So if you sign into a building, which is a non-smoking building, you should have that same with hotels, et cetera, et cetera.   Jason Hull (15:45) Cool. So I'm going to read a word from our sponsor and then I some more questions we'll get into. So this episode is sponsored by Vendoroo So many of you tell me that maintenance is probably the least enjoyable part of the property manager and definitely the most time consuming. But what if you could cut that workload by up to 85 %? That's exactly what Vendoroo has achieved. They've leveraged cutting edge AI technology to handle nearly all your maintenance tasks from initiating work orders and troubleshooting to coordinating with vendors and reporting.   This AI doesn't just automate, it becomes your ideal employee, learning your preferences and executing tasks flawlessly, never needing a day off and never quitting. This frees up you to focus on the critical tasks that really move the needle for you and your business, whether that's refining operations, expanding your portfolio, or even just taking a well-deserved break. So over half the room at last year's DoorGrow Live.   conference signed up with Vendoroo right then and there after hearing about it. A year later, they're not just satisfied. They're raving about how Vendoroo has transformed their business. Don't let maintenance drag you down. Step up your property management game with Vendoroo Visit vendero.ai. That's V-E-N-D-O-R-O-O.ai slash door grow today and make this the last maintenance hire you'll ever need. All right, cool. So back to...   Back to what you were talking about, Nadeav. I'm curious, this sounds like a no-brainer. Is this expensive to get set up? Can this be turned into a profit center for property managers in some way? How does this typically work for property managers?   Nadav Schnall (17:20) Yeah, sure.   So, excellent questions. As far as the cost goes, it is very competitive in the marketplace. Sensors start at about $70 a sensor, depending on what it is. There is a cost for the network, but again, it is not a significant cost. The costs kind of vary based on the size of the building, and obviously there's volume discounts. But, you know, I think it, you know, from a   Profit center, it's an interesting question, right? Because I don't know if you're actively going to make money from the building, from activating the system. However, you will get a return on your investment because again, you're able to, first of all, reduce repair costs. There's no question about that, right? we have...   Examples examples examples of buildings that have installed our system and have caught dozens of water leaks some of which may have turned into Small things or maybe you and an overflowing club, but you caught that and you mopped that up But others are like these slow leaks behind walls and all kinds of areas like that that you otherwise would have not noticed and before it became mold and stuff so hundred percent you save money on that from a repair across perspective and   Jason Hull (18:09) Yeah.   Nadav Schnall (18:24) on insurance front, is really one of our biggest areas that we're focused on is trying to help buildings reduce insurance costs. And so in that sense, it does turn into a profit center, maybe not the traditional profit center as a fee for it, but you do save on other repairs on insurance costs. So in that sense, yes, you do make money on that.   Jason Hull (18:42) So, Nadav, a question. So you've mentioned multifamily. There are a lot of people that listen to this podcast that also do single-family residential, or maybe they do individual condos, or they do short-term rentals or Airbnbs. Do you find that this makes sense for those scenarios as well?   Nadav Schnall (19:03) 100 % it does. We focus...   only on multi-dwelling, in other words, we're a B2B company in that sense, unless maybe there's a situation where there's someone who manages multiple individual condos, let's say, right? Or multiple Airbnbs and they want everything on kind of a dashboard and maybe that would make sense. There are solutions out there that focus on the single-family world, that are Wi-Fi based and they're meant for that. We are really more of a commercial grade.   solution, right? And that's kind of how we set ourselves up. And that is really the big differentiator with us is that we're really focused on whole building solutions. We have automatic border shutoff valves, for example, which I haven't even mentioned before. But for example, we have a commercial building.   where the building owners have no one at the building over the weekend and actually no one in the building after I think it's 7 or 8 p.m. till they come back at like 6 or 7 in the morning. So they proactively shut the water to the building when they leave and no one's there. So they don't even want to take the risk. Of course all of our sensors can connect to the automatic shutoff app and say hey if there is a leak we'll shut that off, we'll shut the water off. They just want to they just put it on a schedule and proactively shut it. So in that sense if you   have single family or Airbnb managers, cetera, et cetera, you can all control it even from the app. You don't even have to be at the property. And you can just shut the valve off and shut the property. So if you're going to go away and let's say you want to winterize the property and shut the water off for a prolonged amount of time because you're not going to be there going on vacation. So you can do that with the system quite easily.   Jason Hull (20:35) Interesting. for somebody that's like an Airbnb and they wanted to get this set up, and they wanted like maybe water, auto water shut off, some gas detection, you know, a couple of the most obvious important ones, what would it roughly cost for them to get that property outfit?   Nadav Schnall (20:53) I mean, if it's a, if let's say we're talking about a single apartment, maybe like a one or two bedroom, you're probably talking about a one time cost of anywhere between 300 to $500. If you're in, if you're in that kind of situation, if it's slightly bigger, it all depends on the number of sensors. But again, if it's about $70 a sensor, how many points of water do you have in your, in your apartment? And then that's how you do the math.   Jason Hull (21:18) Got it. So typically sensor per maybe bathroom or water.   Nadav Schnall (21:22) Yeah, you'd put   one to two per bathroom, right? Depending on how many, if you have a tub or a shower, we typically catch that with another sensor that would be placed nearby, maybe behind a toilet. Sensors are very sleek, non-invasive. They don't actually, many of them, this is actually a sensor. They don't even look that way. So it's good. They're discreet. They go behind toilets, under sinks and so on and so forth. And so it's very easy to deploy them as well.   Jason Hull (21:48) Got it. And these don't have cameras on them, right?   Nadav Schnall (21:51) No   cameras. And as I mentioned, because we use LoRaWAN and it is unable to communicate or transmit large packets of data, it is impossible for me to record someone because the data packets are so small. The amount of data that would need to be transmitted just to record a sentence would take days and days and days. So it is impossible for us to do that.   Jason Hull (22:04) Hmm.   Got it.   Got it. Okay, very cool. Well, what else should people know about this solution or whatever questions that people ask, maybe about ProSentry and then how can people get in touch with you?   Nadav Schnall (22:29) So first of all, think the most important thing is, you know, we were built by real estate professionals. And so we really understand the industry and we're happy to consult.   and speak to anyone who has any questions. There's no strings of ties. There's no cost for that. We're happy to give proposals. And every building is unique and every building has their unique set of challenges. And so I think it's important for your listeners to know that that's the world that we come from and we actually enjoy having conversations with real estate professionals. And so if anyone has any questions or wants to discuss, just feel free to reach out. Our website, which is www.prosentry.com.   prosentry.com. Contact us or request a proposal. Very easy to get in touch with us. Or also info at prosentry.com.   Jason Hull (23:14) Very cool. So one last question. If somebody goes to your website, they decide they want to get some of this stuff set up for the property, who actually comes out and gets all this stuff set up and installed? Do they have to get a contractor to do it? How does that work?   Nadav Schnall (23:27) No, so it is extremely, extremely simple. So we have designed the system so that it is easy to be deployed by the building itself. And while we can provide recommendations for installers, 100%, I think there's one, I wouldn't say 100, I think 99%, I think it's one property that actually hired someone to do that. All of our properties, and I'm talking about hundreds of buildings, have installed the system by themselves. It is extremely easy. The system comes pre-configured.   So the gateways are the only component that gets plugged in. Those are the routers, right? So you start by plugging those into the wall into regular outlet. They turn on in about a minute or so and start communicating. They automatically connect to cellular antennas. They automatically...   create this internal private network only to that building. So there's no configuration, nothing else to do. And then you take the devices, the sensors themselves, you download our app, you scan a QR code on the device and all you do is you have a drop down menu and you say, I am in apartment 22B, it's already pre-configured, we'll configure the apartment, everything will be there. And you'll say, I'm placing it by the kitchen sink. That's it. That's all you gotta do. It automatically connects, the sensors automatically connect. And so,   We do speak to some buildings and they're like, yeah, we don't want to take on. so I call it deployment because it's not even installation. It's not invasive. There's no drilling. There's nothing to do there. So we say, OK, we can give you a proposal for installation or connect you with someone who can do it for you. But then once they understand how they get a little bit of a demo and see how it's done, go, oh, this is it. It's very, very easy to install.   one of the features that I neglected to, to, to, to mention, I think is important is we offer, live operator calls to buildings. And so a lot of providers out there will send you like an app notification or maybe an email or a text message, right. say, Hey, but again, property managers, right. We realize that at two o'clock in the morning, no one's looking at their phone to see if you got a text message. So we use an underwriter, laboratory certified call center with live people, not some robo call.   Jason Hull (25:19) and   Nadav Schnall (25:33) and they will actually call you and say, Jason, you have a leak in apartment 22 B in the kitchen.   under the dishwasher, right? And if you happen not to be answering, we will call the next person online. We can have multiple people. And so we'll call the front desk. Front desk doesn't answer. Maybe the handyman, handyman doesn't answer. The resident manager, the property manager, the hotline, the board president, whoever you need. We can put that all under the platform. So that is an important feature and a differentiator, by the way, because there are not many companies that do that. But we do recognize that because time is of the essence when something like this happens, you need to make sure you can get in touch with   Jason Hull (26:01) Mm.   Nadav Schnall (26:09) someone before damage becomes something very small into something really big. ⁓   Jason Hull (26:13) Yeah,   well, it sounds like a no brainer. Sounds very cool. And yeah, I recommend everybody check it out at prosentry.com. cool. Well, Nadav, thanks for coming and hanging out with us here on the DoorGrow show. Yeah, I appreciate it. So for those of you that maybe felt stuck or stagnant in your property management business, you want to take it to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. We can help.   Nadav Schnall (26:27) Thanks for having me, Jason. This was fun.   Jason Hull (26:40) And for a free training on how to get unlimited leads for free for your property management business, text the word leads to 512-648-4608. That's the word leads to 512-648-4608. Also be sure to join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you would like to get the best ideas in property management, you can join our newsletter.   at doorgrow.com slash subscribe. And if you found this episode even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on whatever platform you saw this on. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.  

Dr. Pia Lieb returns for a second part on the podcast. In this episode, she talks about being obsessed with your craft, and why that extra 10% for patients will take you miles. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:10) I love that you, ⁓ I think this is probably what's made you really great. I don't know. I've heard a lot about you. But I think what you do is you make sure that the patients are obsessed with the results and not that Dr. Pia is obsessed. Like you're obsessed with the craftsmanship of what you've done.   You're really talented at that. But like hearing that you let people walk out and go try these on and what is it going to be like before you do it? That to me says that you are so obsessed about the outcome and the result for the patient. And then your job is to make sure you have the most excellent craftsmanship, the best product, the best techniques, the best method to get them the outcome they want. And I think hearing that, I'm just so proud of you. And I'm so grateful to hear that there are clinicians in our industry that   are obsessed about that rather than the reverse. Because I think some people are obsessed about maybe the dollar, maybe about doing these types of cases, but they're not the best at it, or this is what I think that they should look like. You really want to make sure that that patient is like a walking raving fan of you before you even do the work on them. And that I think is very special about you.   Dr Pia (01:17) Thanks, but you know, I like to say that, you know, like, the thing that people don't understand is I'm technically the Hermes of dentistry because I, it takes a long time to make a Birkin, right? It's all made by hand. So are the veneers, hence why it's so hard to get one. But look, I   Kiera Dent (01:39) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (01:42) 22 years old and it still looks brand new because it's the quality of the craftsmanship you know and I tell all my patients you should get anywhere between 20 and 25 years out of the mirror okay this whole nonsense of five years and ten years that's because they want to redo the case and for you to pay them again if you're doing good quality work the only reason they should be replaced is because you have recession due to old age   Kiera Dent (01:55) Wow.   Mm-hmm.   Wow. And you don't have any issues with these super, super thin ones popping off.   Dr Pia (02:17) No, because okay, let me let me explain to you. Let me explain to you physics. Okay. Okay, do you know why they pop off?   Kiera Dent (02:19) Let's talk about this. I'm so, cause a lot of people haven't popped off and it's so scary. So I'm like, let's talk about this.   You know, this is why I'm asking you. Cause I don't like, feel my guess is that they were not bonded on correctly. And that's my guess. Okay. I'm ready.   Dr Pia (02:28) Okay.   No, it's, two things. There's two things. That's   one, but that's the second one. Right. But let me explain to you. Do you remember when you were in high school and we went to, ⁓   Kiera Dent (02:37) Okay.   Dr Pia (02:43) ⁓ chemistry and we had the microscope with the two glass slabs and we were looking for amoebas and all that stuff. Okay, remember how we were all a painting that you know what and we all tried to pry those two glass slabs apart and it never worked? Well that's the same principle with veneers. The thinner they are the stronger they are.   Kiera Dent (02:51) Yep.   Yeah   Fascinating.   Dr Pia (03:06) Okay   and I'll tell you why because teeth you know because you're in the business so teeth we all have ligaments right the teeth are hard it's a hard structure the bone is a hard structure so we have the dental ligaments right they're horizontal they're transversal so those are like the shock absorbers that hold the tooth inside the bone socket. Now   Kiera Dent (03:12) Mm-hmm. Right.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (03:30) when you're speaking and when you're eating those teeth move microns not visible to the eye but your teeth have mobility just like trees have mobility in the wind right we don't see the trees move unless it's a hundred mile an hour winds but if you have a five mile an hour wind you don't see that tree moving right but it does move   Kiera Dent (03:44) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (03:56) So   when you're doing these 3D print and you're filing like the turkey teeth where you have the little pegs left and the ratio of tooth to porcelain is 50-50 or you're having 60-40 or 70-30 that 3D printed porcelain does not flex.   Kiera Dent (04:05) Yep.   Makes sense.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (04:23) but your tooth does. So that's the number one issue why they pop off. The thicker they are, the easier they'll pop off. And the number two reason is the dentist has no idea about occlusion. Because if you have a premature contact or you have lateral excursions or a protrusive, you're going to pop those off like there's no tomorrow.   Kiera Dent (04:23) True.   Interesting.   Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.   Totally. Yeah.   Dr Pia (04:51) So these are   the basic principles. If you don't know occlusion, you shouldn't be doing dentistry. I'm talking about GPs or it's the holy grail of this profession. Occlusion, occlusion, occlusion.   Kiera Dent (05:03) And I will tell you as a patient who has the most obnoxious bite, ⁓ there are dentists who do no occlusion and there are dentists who don't because my bite you adjust one teeny tiny little micron and the whole bite gets thrown off and they're like, no care, it should be fine. And I'm like, I can always tell if you're just doing blue paper and you're having me bite chew all around, I know you don't understand occlusion because I'm like, you're never going to get it. I'm going to be, you're dancing all the way around. Like from the patient who has sat there,   four hours upon hours and had to find other dentists because the dentist who thought they could do it truly can't do it. And this isn't me being a jerk. This is me being the patient who has to suffer through a dentist who doesn't understand occlusion. Like what you just said as a patient, ⁓ and like there's some, know, you can have it like completely off and like, yeah, it feels great. And then you have patients like myself that teeny, teeny, teeny tiny. I can feel it. You can't even find it. And I'm like, no, it's off. My bite is not, my teeth are not coming together.   Dr Pia (05:59) You always know, the patient always knows. They're always right.   Kiera Dent (06:02) always. And please don't have me laying back.   Please don't have me lay back. Let me sit up. Let me lay back. Let me tell you on both of them, because it's always different. And they're like, no, it's good. And I'm like, it's not. You're not sitting in my mouth.   Dr Pia (06:09) Yeah!   Because   you most probably have long centric, right? So you have one occlusion when your head is back and you have a different occlusion when your head is forward. Now, if that's the case, you need to check both.   Kiera Dent (06:18) Mm-hmm.   Absolutely.   Correct. Thank you. Preach, please, for the patients like myself. These are the pieces. And I don't disagree because when I have seen dentists and they're not checking that and the patients are constantly popping off, I'm like, just maybe check to see how those teeth are hitting in all directions because they will pop.   Dr Pia (06:43) ⁓ but let   me interrupt you for one thing. The other thing that's an issue, okay, if they do it and you're anesthetized, you're not going to get a good read. You always have to call the patient back the next day and check the occlusion again in all the positions when they're not anesthetized because I will guarantee you on my career that it will be off.   Kiera Dent (06:53) ⁓ no, never.   Yep. Yep.   Always. And they're like, no, you can bite when you're numb. And I'm like, I don't even know how I'm biting. I have no clue. I know I'm biting differently. Preach. These are the things and the conversations that I've said. And having somebody like yourself who's so good at this. I mean, you guys, has a referral-based practice. Like people are flying in to see her. I can see why, because how you speak about this is so different. And I think today, one, I hope people are inspired of things to do, things to not do.   different ways to do this. I also love the risk that you took. I love the growth. I love the determination of self of I will be the best. You have the passion. You've got the grit. You've got the tenacity. I have doctors who are great surgeons that are truly incredible at this. I've got doctors that are amazing at occlusion. I've got doctors that are amazing at fillings. There's a doctor and one of his patients said like, have the smoothest fillings in all the land. And he's like, that's really weird. I had him fix a filling that chipped.   And I'm not going to lie, he has the smoothest fillings in all the land. Like I've never felt a feeling as smooth as this man did for me.   Dr Pia (08:12) That's because he polished it afterwards.   99% don't polish them. You know, I had a colleague, checked, he did a, we put a crown in and I'm like, Joe, can we polish it? He goes, no, you're good to go. I'm like, no, I'm not. He's like, but I polished it. I'm like, okay, there is a porcelain polishing kit that you've got to go red, blue, white.   Kiera Dent (08:18) I was shocked.   Hahaha   Dr Pia (08:40) and the white has to be on low rpms and you have to make sure that it's shiny and polished and he's like i don't have the patience for that go do it yourself in the office and i did   Kiera Dent (08:52) But I think like that even I feel like dentistry you It to me what I'm hearing is a lot of dentists. It sounds like go 90 % of the way But it's like that extra 10 % is what really in my opinion makes a lot of difference for patients It's doing the polishing. It's doing the small finesse like you you're working in such a small space anyway Why not make it absolutely perfect and dr. P? think you really inspired me to even look at myself in my life of where's that extra 10 % that I could really just make a dazzle Where could I really make it shine?   It's not, it doesn't take a lot of time, but it does take intentionality. So as we wrap today, this has been such a fascinating podcast and I've absolutely loved it. And I just appreciate your time. I want you to wrap with, you can do do's, don'ts or a mix of the in between. What should people who are doing cosmetic dentistry from your perspective as truly one of the most expert people I've ever met do in cosmetic dentistry or don't or you're welcome to do a mixture as just a quick wrap rattle of things that you've seen in your career.   Dr Pia (09:48) Before   we do that, want to talk to you, I think that we should do this again because I want to talk to you about DSOs and private practice.   Kiera Dent (09:56) Mm, yeah.   That is very fascinating. This is heavy on my mind of all different topics currently in the landscape, which I don't disagree with you.   Dr Pia (10:08) Yeah, that's things are things are changing and not for the better.   Kiera Dent (10:12) They are.   Yeah, absolutely. That will be it.   Dr Pia (10:17) Because I'm a dinosaur   now. I mean, there's very few of us that do handmade work anymore. So getting back to your question. Look, I   Kiera Dent (10:22) I don't disagree.   Dr Pia (10:30) cosmetic dentistry you have to be very very very passionate about it and and the key is to leave your ego at the door and try to be the best version of yourself and that means take every course if you're a young dentist or still in dental school take every course that you can take you know look on Instagram and find the people that do the handmade work like myself and you know there's a handful of   that do it and ceramist as well and find the good beautiful work and reach out to everyone like you know everybody can reach out to me you know and ask me like hi how do I do this or how you know how should I go about doing that the thing is you have to be passionate if you're do and what I've told every student of mine in 18 years you're not doing this for the money the money will come you have to do this because you love doing it   Kiera Dent (11:31) I don't disagree. think, on that note, Dr. Pia, what is the best way for people to follow you? Because I love that you said this and I tell people all the time, the world has shifted. We are in 2025. I'm going to choose a plastic surgeon, a cosmetic dentist, a surgeon based on their Instagram. I'm gonna go look at their photos. I'm gonna go look at their work. We don't live in a world where we are isolated just to our own state anymore. Like people fly across the country to go get the best work done. So.   Dr Pia (11:56) yeah, mean Instagram,   I get internationals from Instagram. I've gotten Kazakhstan, I've gotten the UK, I've gotten the French, I've gotten so many and they're all Instagram. And I'm like, okay. I'm just Dr. P, I spelled out the D-O-C-T-O-R. P-I-A, my first name.   Kiera Dent (12:06) How cool is that? So what is your Instagram handle? So people can follow and kind of see what you do.   Dr. Pia,   and I think if you want to see someone, I know you said you're a dinosaur in this, but as we've been chatting, I'm like, this is the doctor that I would fly across the country to go to. This is the one that I would go see. She knows what she's talking about. She's got the finesse, she's got the passion. She's willing to do one veneer. She's the person I'm going to trust to do work on my mouth. And it's how does she get seen? How does she get known? How does she do this? Guys, these are the legends. These are the people. These are people that have just like done what you're wanting to do.   Follow her and also, I don't know if you have heard at the beginning of the podcast, it sounds like Dr. Pia, you're passionate about helping any person who this is their dream become the best in the industry. And that to me is why she...   Dr Pia (12:51) for sure. For sure. Just DM me if you have any questions.   That's the whole like Instagram is the new portal of learning.   Kiera Dent (13:01) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (13:04) Just ask questions. mean, it's none of us were born knowing how to do veneers. We all had to learn it at some point. And as long as your ego is at the door and you're willing to learn and be the best version of yourself, then you're great. You're great. But if you think you know it all, I'm still learning. And I've been doing this for decades. I'm still learning. I want to be up to date and things are changing. Materials are changing. There's so many things.   Kiera Dent (13:13) Right.   Dr Pia (13:34) Styles are changing. Thank God the Hollywood smile is dying. Finally. This took about 16 years, but thank God it's dying now. It's going back to natural   Kiera Dent (13:34) Yeah.   No. Right.   which Dr. Pia, people didn't get to hear this. I heard this pre-show. You came on, we were just chatting and you said, I love my career. I love what I do. And to hear that you've been doing it this long and can still say that you love that. That's what my hope and wishes for so many doctors out there is that, and like, yes, we will get you back on the podcast to talk about DSO private practice because I think so many people are like get in, get out real quick. And I think that you are just such a great example of loving your craft, loving what you do.   committing to be the expert and look, you've had this long of a career and you're still obsessed with what you do. And I just want to honor you and say thank you and thank you for inspiring dentists today on the podcast.   Dr Pia (14:24) Well, thanks for having me. And look, the young generation, the new graduates that are out there, I think we need to tell them the do's and don'ts of DSO.   Kiera Dent (14:36) Absolutely. So that's a wrap for today with Dr. Pia. We'll have her back on talking about DSOs and new grads and the, I think the perspectives, because right now it's a world of a lot of noise and to find wisdom through that noise is paramount. So Dr. Pia, thanks for being on. Thanks for sharing your cosmetic knowledge. Yeah, I did too. And for all of you listening, I hope you commit to being the best at your craft, to getting hungry. There's a great quote. I'm a BYU football fan ⁓ and their coach says, be hungry.   Dr Pia (14:51) It was a pleasure, I loved it!   Kiera Dent (15:05) Stay hungry, stay humble. And I think that that's what Dr. Pia has done. And I hope all of you commit to that. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team podcast.  

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of strategic planning for 2026. As they near the end of 2025, they emphasize the need for agencies to set themselves apart and adapt to the evolving landscape, particularly through the effective use of AI. Despite ongoing economic challenges, they highlight the potential for AI to enhance both efficiency and strategic thinking. Chip and Gini also stress the importance of refining the ideal client profile and taking calculated risks. They share their personal experiences with using AI to assist in planning and decision-making processes, pointing out both the benefits and limitations of current AI technology. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “I do think more than ever, continuing forward on the path that you’re on for the vast majority of agencies is not a good idea. I think most agencies require at least some modest course correction and some more than that.” Gini Dietrich: “Really think about how you can set yourself apart and get in front of prospects now and in January so that you can be doing the things that will help you scale and grow and be sustainable for the future. And some of it’s not gonna be fun.” Chip Griffin: “I think really refining that ideal client profile is something that most of us ought to be taking a very close look at for 2026 in our planning process.” Gini Dietrich: “Be willing to try some things and take some risks and see what works and see what doesn’t work, and then go move on to what works and try again.” Resources The Ragan article regarding upskilling and improving AI skills Related Planning for agency growth Using the AIM-GET Framework to drive your annual planning How to involve your team in annual planning for your agency and its clients Look to your track record as you define your agency's ideal client View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m, I’m flipping through the calendar here, you know, ’cause I still have a paper calendar. Of course. I mean, who doesn’t? Gini Dietrich: Of course. Right. Chip Griffin: And it looks like we’re almost to the end of 2025. Gini Dietrich: We, we are. Which is crazy. Crazy. Chip Griffin: Which, which means that 2026 is right around the corner. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes it is. Chip Griffin: And what do we usually do near the end of each year? Gini Dietrich: We plan for the following next year. Yeah. Chip Griffin: And, and we have an episode talking about that. So when we have no other good ideas to bring to the table, we turn to the trusted proven stuff from the past Gini Dietrich: 2026. I mean, we could talk about 2026 trends. We could talk about 2026 AI things, but I think planning for our business growth is good. Chip Griffin: Yeah. That all goes into planning, right? So, I, and, you know, I, I’m, as long as we don’t do predictions, I’m fine. I hate predictions. Gini Dietrich: Oh, shoot. Let’s do predictions next week then. Chip Griffin: No, no, no predictions. No, that’s, that drives me up a wall. Gini Dietrich: Note to self. Note to self. Chip Griffin: And I, and I know we are just, you know, probably days away from the flood of Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Articles and Yep. And podcast episodes and videos with everybody making their predictions for the year ahead. Yep. Just stop it. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: So my prediction is we will see lots of predictions. Gini Dietrich: That is a good prediction. I think you’re probably going to be right. Chip Griffin: It seems pretty likely. Gini Dietrich: I’d bet on it in fact. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alright, so as we start thinking about 2026 planning, let’s look at it for through the, the lens of, of what, what we might do differently in thinking about 2026 than we typically do. Right? Because we, there’s plenty in our archive where people can go back and listen to us generally talk about planning. I’m sure we’ll touch on some of that in the next 20 minutes. I don’t wanna disappoint listeners. We, we will, you know, reach back to the things that we’ve talked about before, but I think it’s helpful to, to think about, you know, what’s, what’s different about 2026, and I think you’ve already hinted at one of the key things. Gini Dietrich: Oh, AI for sure. Yeah. I saw a really interesting post on LinkedIn from Parry Headrick who was talking about how he used to work for Shift and he was the VP of the San Francisco office, I think, and he said, you know, this was during the recession and I was… Anybody who was in business during the recession knows all of your business went away. It was not a fun time to be in business at all. And he talked about how he went to the office every single day for months on end, and he made cold calls to tech firms and he, he would say, we can do like a PR plan for you, a PR 101 like, and he said one out of every 100 calls accepted the offer. And then they went all out and created a really strategic, as much as it could be, plan for these companies. And gave it to them for free so that they had, they could generate some business. And he said that that was one of the things that kept the office going during that time and how miserable it was. Like he talked about it was boiling the frog, like it was miserable and it was not enjoyable. It’s not why he was doing that job, but they had to keep the office open. And I think that, I read that and I thought, you know, that’s really interesting as we think about 2026 because the last couple of years for agencies have been miserable. We have been slowly boiling the frog for sure. And you know, I have a lot of friends who have laid people off, some have gone out of business, some haven’t gone outta business, but don’t have any clients. Like, it has been rough. And I’m not sure that 26 is going to be much better. So I think one of the things that I will be advising people is, and, and for us too, is really think about how you can set yourself apart and get in front of prospects now and in January so that you can be doing the things that will help you scale and grow and be sustainable for the future. And some of it’s not gonna be fun. It’s not. Chip Griffin: Well, you’ve, uh, certainly taken this on a depressing turn here. Gini Dietrich: I mean, we can talk about AI too, but Chip Griffin: I mean No, I mean, we can, we can talk about how miserable and awful things are for everybody. Uh, that’s, Gini Dietrich: it’s been rough. It’s not like it hasn’t been rainbows and unicorns. It hasn’t. Chip Griffin: No, it, it has, it has not been rainbows and unicorns. But I, but I would also, I would, I would push back a bit. I, I don’t think we’re as bad as ’08 or ’09, or back in the early two thousands. I don’t think it’s, it is not as widespread as it was back then. I’m certainly in the agencies that I’m talking with, seeing a lot of agencies that are struggling, most, not catastrophically, most just kind of, you know, sort of malaise is, is the word I would use. Yeah. It’s good for it. And there are still some that are actually doing quite well and, and even growing. So that, to me, that is a little bit different than what we’ve seen in, you know, in  08 or ’09, or during the pandemic. Certainly. You know, where it was pretty much… I guess even in the pandemic, we had pockets, right? The, the digital firms did well because everybody had to transition from doing things in person to doing things electronically. But it, it’s just… so, I, I think we’re in that general period of malaise, you know, sort of in, in my mind, I’m old enough, I, I think Jimmy Carter, right? You know, you just sort of think, ehhh, you know, and, and how America of the late ’70’s was. And so there’s some of that, at least within the economy and, and certainly in, in the agency space. So I think that that part of the, the challenge here is that it is not as simple an explanation as to how you get out of it. Right. I mean, back in ’08, ’09, it’s like, okay, well the economy just has to come forward. And in this case, part of it’s the economy, but part of it is the, the shifting nature of the relationships between agencies and brands, and other organizations. And so I, I, I think that one of the reasons why some agencies are struggling is because they’re not taking a fresh look. At what they do, how they fit into that picture. And I think there needs to be a lot more creative thinking. And I think AI is a big driver of it, not necessarily in the, in the way that people think, though I don’t, I don’t see AI as taking away agency work. Mm-hmm. I see it as agencies just haven’t figured out how to capitalize on it effectively. And, I think that there is tremendous opportunity for those agencies who are willing to adapt their service offerings with and without AI. And moving forward in a way where they’ll leave behind a lot of of other agencies that are more committed to just plodding forward and doing the same old, same old, and, you know, sprinkling in a little bit of AI here and there. Gini Dietrich: I read a really interesting article a couple of weeks ago and I’ll see if I can find it so Jen can include it in the show notes. I’m sure it’s in my history somewhere, but it talked about how, you know, we’ve seen all of these layoffs at all these large companies in the last couple of months, you know, thousands and thousands of people. And they’re telling, most of these companies are telling the teams that remain. There are two things that you need to focus on: upskilling. So, you know, using AI to help improve you, you know, understanding your own professional development, taking charge of new professional development, new skills. And the other piece is really using AI to help improve your, the work that you’re doing to make you more productive. And it went on to say. If you’re an agency that can help with one of those two things, or both of those things, you’re gonna be in better shape than an agency who does new media news releases and news conferences, and you know, social media. So if you can think about how you can provide professional development or help an organization implement AI from a marketing and communications perspective, you’re gonna be a lot further ahead than those that can’t do that. So I think that goes back to really thinking about how to freshen the services that you provide in a way that keeps up with what’s happening in the world. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, look, I think that’s absolutely a piece of it, but I think a piece of it is also figuring out, you know, how can you use AI to help you do different things that are not necessarily even explicitly AI related. Or made more efficient by AI or it, I, I think it’s just a, it’s a opportunity to take a very fresh look at how we do everything. And, and I think we need to be careful, not just us as agencies, but also on the brand side. We need to be careful about how much we believe AI itself is changing things or can change things. And, and I, I saw in the last couple of days, a video that our friend Chris Penn put out, where he talked about how you need to change your vocabulary to get the most out of the various generative AI platforms. And I don’t disagree with what he’s saying. You do need to adapt your language to those models so that you get the results you want. But, but the flip side of that is, to me, that says AI has not come nearly as far as we think because we shouldn’t have to change for AI to be responsive to us. Right. Right. True AI would be adapting to us instead. And, and so we’re not quite there yet. And, and the progress has been absolutely amazing. I’ve, every time I try out the latest version of a model, I find new things that it can do and continue to get more and more impressed. But I also have ongoing frustrations with them. In part because of this vocabulary issue, but in part because, you know, we’re still, we’re still overestimating what the, the technology can do for us today as far as allowing us to, to replace work hours, et cetera. And so I see many brands laying off marketing and communications people thinking, well, we’ll have fewer people, but AI will help them do the same amount. Nope. And AI certainly makes you more efficient, but not, not that efficient. Gini Dietrich: Not that efficient. No. And you still need somebody with a brain to prompt it and ensure that it’s not hallucinating and ensure that it’s the right information. And that it’s been edited. Like you still need humans for those things. Does it help you get a start? For sure. But you still need the human beings to do the work. And make sure that it’s accurate because what it pumps out on first try, I mean, my favorite response is meh. I just write MEH meh, and it goes, okay, lemme try again. And then I write, meh. It tries again. Finally. I’m like, okay, that’s halfway decent. Chip Griffin: Well, that, that’s better. My habit is to actually get into arguments with it, which… Really serves no good purpose, but I just, I get, I get, I get frustrated when I explicitly ask it to do something and it doesn’t, Gini Dietrich: it doesn’t, right. Chip Griffin: And I’ll be like, well, why didn’t you do what? Yeah. Oh no, you’re right. I should have done that. Yes, because I specifically for it, right? Like, please help me, Gini Dietrich: please write a thousand words and it gives you 300. And you’re like, Hmm, right. Just do what thousand words. Chip Griffin: Just do what I ask, you know? Or, you know, please make the logo smaller in this image. And it doesn’t change it. No, don’t do that to me, that’s just, it’s very frustrating. Gini Dietrich: It’s very frustrating. I agree. Chip Griffin: But I think, you know, we need to be thinking how we can leverage some of these tools to help us adapt our service offerings. And I was, I was talking with someone recently who, they had shifted a, a process from humans to AI recently. And they were running into issues because it was some data analysis that was being done and, and it turned out that the numbers were wildly different between the humans and the AI. And so the first instinct was that the AI was wrong. But in fact, upon further review, it turned out that the AI was too good. And it was being in incredibly consistent in the way that it was doing the task. Ah, whereas humans. Sure. Inevitably we get distracted, we make a mistake, we, we hit the wrong key. You know, I mean, there’s all sorts of things that can lead to this, but because the AI was more consistent and the volume of data and such being analyzed by the humans and the AI was substantial, it, it made a real difference because the AI was actually better. And so, but to me that’s an opportunity. You’ve got a short term problem that you gotta deal with that, you know, you’ve been generating these historical reports that don’t look quite right now. But there’s a real opportunity there because you can actually improve the quality of what you’re doing, along with the quantity, along with reducing the, the labor hours involved and that sort of thing. So we need to be looking at, at how we can take that and take it to the next level, not just how can we use AI to do first drafts so that we only have to edit and so therefore we save, you know, 30% of our time or something like that. There’s, we have to be thinking much, much more creatively if we’re gonna be successful going forward. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I mean, I’m sure I’ve shared this before, but some of the work that we’ve done in my business this year, I’m not sure we could have done it without AI in the, in two years ago, like some of the work that clients have asked us to do. I’m not sure that we would’ve been capable of doing it without AI. So it, it does have the ability to make you more efficient for sure, but it also helps you think more strategically. And to your point, like, bringing in the, the consistency piece of it so that, you know, maybe the, the way that you reported on results in the past isn’t fully accurate, but now it’s more accurate. Like those kinds of things I think it has helped immensely with, and you know, I can think of at least three situations where I’ve been in a meeting with like big, big, big, big executives and they’ve thrown something out. Do you think your team can do this? And I’ve gone, sure. And then we come back and, you know, as a team, work on it and, and prompt AI. And it’s helped us get to where we need to be. And I don’t think we could have done that on our own two years ago. For sure. Chip Griffin: So, you know, we’ve been talking a bunch about how AI is impacting our businesses, but let’s talk a minute about how AI impacts the planning process itself. And so, you know, my question to you would be, as you’re doing your own 2026 planning with your team, are you using AI to facilitate that process at all? Gini Dietrich: Some of it, I would say I have a co CEO, GPT that I built. So it sits as my Co CEO and sometimes I just vent to it. It makes me feel better, but sometimes it will say things like it will point out things that I didn’t think of. And so, you know, when we, especially right now, ’cause we’re working on cash flow projections for next year with our CFO and I’ve, I’ve put in like… Not actual numbers, but percentages to, and said like, can you help me figure out if these are our goals, what we’re going need to do? What software do we need? What team members are we gonna have to add? Like that kind of stuff. And it help, it’s helping me and our CFO think through all of those different scenarios for sure. We haven’t gotten into like the nitty gritty planning yet because our 2025 plan is rolling over into Q1 a little bit. So we’re, we’re about a quarter behind from that perspective. But, from a cashflow perspective, it’s helping a ton and it’s helped me see things that I wouldn’t have seen on my own. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And and I think that’s a, that’s a real benefit that we ought to be looking at when we’re doing the planning process is using AI, not necessarily to give us all the answers, but to help us understand what else we should be looking at. So I love using AI to, to, to give it a list of questions that I may have about something and say, what, what other questions should I be asking? What other data points should I be looking at? Or putting in some raw data and saying, okay, you know, what are the gaps here? What, what should I be looking to… What additional data should I be looking for? Or how can I analyze this in a different way? So I think in the planning process, there’s a lot of ways that we can use the AI to help us. I think we just need to be careful about using it to give us the answers and instead help it to guide the conversations for sure. Yeah. That we’re having with our teams and with our clients, because it will inevitably help us find things that we are overlooking. And maybe we would still get to it halfway through the brainstorming session or the, the strategy meeting or whatever. But if we know it in advance, you know, it helps us prepare better. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I do think, you know, to your point about the, the data and it being consistent, I think it does look at things more holistically and how, and I mean, it will say to me, have you thought about this or have you thought about that? Or, you know. Here’s an opportunity for you. Like with the PESO model certification in universities, we had an idea of how we were going to approach it in ’26 ’cause the certification is being completely revamped because of AI. And it actually gave me a couple of ideas that I was like… Huh, I hadn’t even thought about that. So like providing curriculum and grading rubric and things like that, that helps professors that I hadn’t even, ’cause I just don’t have that kind of experience. Right. But it helps me think through some of those kinds of things. So I think you’re right. And you know, I love the idea of, of a list of questions and asking what you haven’t thought of. I’ll put in and say, you know, we’re looking to do this, this, and this, and here’s what we’re thinking. What are we missing? And it, you know, it does come back with some ideas. Sometimes it comes back with things you’ve thought about and you’ve dismissed, and sometimes it comes back with things that you’re like, Hmm, okay, let’s, let’s explore that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I mean it, there’s, it’s not a replacement for human judgment. You still need to look at it and say, oh, yeah, that does make sense, that it’s something we look at. But, but my experience is more often than not, it does come up with things that, you know, that given the right amount of time I would have thought of, but Sure. You know, it, it’s, it’s, it’s good to have it reinforced that, it’s good to have it, you know, bubble it up higher on my list so that, again, I, I’m not finding it out, you know, halfway through the meeting when the light bulb goes off and it’s like, oh, right, I forgot about this. We should be, we should be looking at that. Right. You know, but I, I think this is the, the planning process is, is an opportunity for you as well to be thinking about challenging your own assumptions. And, and I do think more than ever continuing forward on the path that you’re on for the vast majority of agencies is not a good idea. I think most agencies require at least some modest course correction and some more than that. And so I think that we’ve already talked about, you know, what kind of services you can deliver and those kinds of things. But I think the other thing we all ought to be looking at in 2026 is the definition of our ideal client. Because, because we do need to understand better how our clients of today are being impacted by the economy, by AI, by all of the social change that’s going on. And understanding how is that impacting who we’re targeting, how we’re targeting them, what kinds of engagements we’re, we’re trying to set up with. And so I, I think really refining that ideal client profile is something that most of us ought to be taking a very close look at for 2026 in our planning process. Gini Dietrich: One hundred percent. I could not agree more. And you know, I’m a big, big, big fan of really understanding at a macro level what’s going on so that we know how it affects our businesses. And I think that the more that you can do that and understand how everything that’s going on in the world is going to affect your agency and you know, the sustainability and stability of it, I think are, is really, really important. And being willing to try some things and take some risks and see what works and see what doesn’t work, and then go move on to what works and try again. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and you need to, to look at the data that you’ve got in front of you, not data from three to five years ago, right? But, but data from 2025. And so whether you’ve had a great 2025, a mediocre 2025, or an awful 2025, look at what the data is telling you. And look at where you’ve had success. Success in terms of where you’ve had the best results for clients, which we often overlook. We, we often look at just, you know, what we’ve been able to sell, but you need to see what is producing results for clients. You do need to understand what you’re selling, where those leads came from, and, and look at those recent trends and lean into what’s working. And again, that doesn’t matter whether you’ve had a good year or a bad year. You still wanna lean into what you know is working today because it is a, a very different environment than it was 3 years ago, 10 years ago, and and beyond. So you need to be relying on that kind of analysis if you wanna make smarter decisions in your planning process. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you’re right, like this is different than 2008, 2009, and 2020. It’s, it’s different. So be willing to take some risk. It’s uncomfortable for sure. Chip Griffin: You and I both love risk, so we’re always gonna preach risk. Calculated risk, not just reckless risk. Gini Dietrich: Calculated risk.Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Please be calculated. Chip Griffin: Yes, have a reason for what you’re doing, and have a reason to believe that there’s a decent chance of success. Don’t just blindly walk out there and say, Hey, let’s try crossing the street now without looking and see what happens. That’s not the kind of risk we want you to take. Gini Dietrich: Please don’t do that. Please do not do that. Please, please do not do that. Chip Griffin: So with that, if you’re, if you’re listening and you’re driving or something, still pay attention ’cause we’re gonna wrap up now. Keep your eyes open. Keep your eyes open. If you, if you wanna listen to this again, wait. You, you can go back to the link. There’s resources that’ll be there. There’s the transcript there, all those things. So stay safe. Yes, yes. However you’re listening to us. And with that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Recorded: 12/02/25. It's time to talk about the holidays and our plans for the month. Why we like MM books. No glove no love. It's time to read holiday books! Shannon reviews "Railed by the Krampus". Thanksgiving recap. Go watch and read "Heated Riverly" by Rachel Reid. On Crave in Canada and HBO in the US. MM hockey players. Very spicy. 3 peppers. Advent Cheese tasting! We are eating and rating cheese! Original music composed by The Jessi Brown Experience. Find Jessi at TheJessiBrownExperience.Bandcamp.com, and us @ShannonsParty, @ActualMaggieMay, @ThatMoreThing , and @ShannonsPartyReads on Instagram. Now streaming on Podbean, Pocket Cast, Spotify, and Apple Podcast

There's milk everywhere: more milk in the U.S., Europe and New Zealand than a year ago, soft Class IV, and Class III futures that could slip into the $13s once you plug in today's spot cheese and whey. With a long milk wave crashing over the dairy industry, will farmers start culling cows and leaving stalls empty? Inside the episode, the team churns through: Why strong balance sheets, paid-down debt and high cow values could delay a production pullback How lower feed costs shift the breakeven – but can't fully offset falling milk checks Why Western and cheese-focused regions like the Pacific Northwest, California and Idaho may struggle first How WPC 80, WPI and clear whey proteins have become the lone bulls – and why capacity constraints limit the industry's response Why there are limits to what customers can pay for whey, and where substitution is already happening It's a barn full of bears on butter, cheese and fluid milk, but the protein complex is still flexing. The question is how long that can last? Tune in to The Milk Check episode 88: One bull in a barn full of bears to hear how our traders are navigating a market that's bearish on volume but still bullish on protein. Got questions? We'd love to hear them. Submit below, and we might answer it on the show. Ask The Milk Check Ted Jacoby III: Welcome, everybody, to The Milk Check. It is December 5th. We’re gonna talk about markets today. And rather than boring you and having the same conversation we had three weeks ago, everything is still bearish. There’s milk everywhere. There’s milk all over the U.S. There’s milk all over Europe. There’s milk all over New Zealand. There’s a whole bunch more milk this year than last year. Things are long. It’s very likely things are gonna get longer before they get shorter. Today we have some of our usual suspects. My brother Gus has joined us today. We’ve got Josh White, we’ve got Joe Maixner, we’ve got Diego Carvallo. And, of course, myself. Looking forward to a great conversation. So, rather than discussing how bearish we can be on these markets, my question, and I’m gonna start by throwing this question at my brother, Gus, is Gus, how long do you think it’s gonna take for dairy farmers to start culling cows and for this milk [00:01:00] production to slow down? Gus Jacoby: I feel like milk price and farm economics are completely contingent on that and how bad those farm economics get with respect to the milk price. Class III is still relatively high. Obviously, Class IV is pretty poor right now. The way I see it, dairymen, at this moment in time, still have fairly strong balance sheets. So, the recent low prices haven’t affected ’em all that much. So, I don’t expect their behavior with respect to culling and whatnot to change. But I think in five, six months from now, assuming that the milk price is at or lower, and quite frankly, I think Class III probably does need to get a bit lower, you’ll start to see some of that behavior change. If I had to guess, either as early as early summer, but as late as maybe mid-fall, if farm economics don’t change, we’ll start to see dairymen begin to leave stalls open. I mean, they’re gonna cull a cow, collect that beef revenue that they can grab, and not necessarily buy the expensive heifer. Ted Jacoby III: You’re thinking it’s gonna take about six months for dairy farmers [00:02:00] to get to the point where they feel like they need to increase the amount of cows they’re selling in order to meet their cashflow needs? Gus Jacoby: That’s my best guess. And again, that can be either expedited or slowed down depending on where the milk price goes. Ted Jacoby III: Corn prices have really come down this year. Do you think the lower feed prices have lowered where that break even point is, or how low we need to go in milk price in order to really send those signals in a strong way? Gus Jacoby: Certainly, feed prices being lower are gonna be helpful to the farm economic model. This becomes a milk price discussion. If the cheese price continues to have that downward pressure and gets low enough, those feed prices won’t be low enough. It’s always related to their inputs. And certainly, cheap feed helps their cause to extend growth in the milk production model. Ted Jacoby III: Right now, on December 5th, the Class III prices for the first quarter are right around, let’s call it $15.50, but if you use today’s cheese price on the spot market at the CME in today’s whey price, you’re probably looking at something closer to $14, 14 and a quarter. [00:03:00] Is that low enough or do we need to go lower? Gus Jacoby: It’s low enough. But not low to expedite anything. Maybe that takes us into the late summer, and remember, it depends on where we’re talking here in the country. Milk production costs are different depending on where you exist in the country. And also payouts are a lot different in a lot of places, depending on where you exist in the country. So, some regions might struggle sooner than later. Ted Jacoby III: Which regions do you think are gonna struggle first? Gus Jacoby: The West, Pacific Northwest, I think California, areas like Idaho that are strongly cheese based. If you’re paying on a Class III price and it stabilizes, which I don’t anticipate here, then perhaps some of those regions might hold on longer. My guess is predicated on the forecast of Class III going a bit lower. Ted Jacoby III: I guess I’d have to agree with that ’cause I don’t think $14 a hundredweight is enough. Because we’re still in front of Christmas, and I think the market’s probably gonna get worse before it gets better. My hunch is we’re gonna see $13 milk this year. We’re gonna see it in Class IV, and we may be already [00:04:00] seeing it in Class IV as soon as December. I think we’re gonna see a 13 handle in Class III, probably most of the first quarter. Gus Jacoby: If you’ve got a Class III at 13, and Class IV holds as low as it is, which I would expect certainly in the first half of the year, and then you have your standard freight and other deducts in those milk checks, dairymen are now getting to an area that is very adverse. Ted Jacoby III: Even though we’re talking about really low prices, I think there’s a lot of dairy farmers out there that are in a pretty healthy place. Gus Jacoby: I would agree. Ted Jacoby III: They’re healthy in two ways. One, I think that many of them have been able to take the last two years and really pay down their debt. And so, they’re in a really good spot financially, just on the balance sheet alone. But the second thing is those cows, they’re worth twice what they were worth three years ago. And so, not only have they paid down their debt, but if they need to borrow more, they’ve got more collateral to borrow against because those cows are usually the collateral for the banks when the banks lend dairy farmers money. It’s [00:05:00] usually the cows and the land. My hunch is that this may go on longer than we expect because of how healthy dairy farmers are financially today. Not saying they’ll be healthy in four or five months, but they’re healthy today. And because of how much bankers are probably willing to lend them based on those balance sheets. Gus Jacoby: I agree that the balance sheets are strong at the moment, even after a couple tough months. But I would also add, that that can change fairly quickly if the milk price gets low enough. And it’s certainly a ratio of farm economics over a certain period of time and milk price. If it gets low enough and makes those farm economics adverse enough, it can expedite the issue, which is a plausible scenario right now. Ted Jacoby III: Mm-hmm. I would agree with that. I think the hardest thing, especially when you have a falling market like we do right now, is to try and figure out exactly where the bottom is. About a month ago, the bottom was about a $1.40. Well, guess what? Cheese price is already below a $1.40 Now, we’re hearing it’s gonna be [00:06:00] somewhere in the $1.20s. What I’m scared is we’re gonna get to the $1.20s, and somebody’s gonna start talking about maybe we need to go into the teens. I don’t know if we’re gonna go that low, but we’re definitely in that scenario right now, where you have a market that’s falling and nobody has a really good feel for where that bottom is. Gus Jacoby: I agree. Cheese and butter right now, their outlook over the next six to eight months does not look good. Ted Jacoby III: Yeah. You mentioned butter. Joe, I’ll ask you: we’re below a $1.50 in butter. Butter feels like maybe it’s caught a temporary floor. Is this a temporary floor or could we stabilize here for the next six months? Joe Maixner: I think we’ve hit a temporary floor, but I don’t think it’s the lowest we’ll see over the next 90 days. I think that cream seems to be in balance, even after Thanksgiving, and I think it’s kept a nice spot in the market where people are willing to buy, those that hadn’t already put contracts on for next year are seeing the 2026 numbers and they’re looking at that against their budgets and blocking volume up for next year. A [00:07:00] lot of first half volume’s already been booked. We’re just seeing more activity. We’ve hit that level of support. Ted Jacoby III: Joe, you mentioned cream. Gus, I’m gonna go back to you. We had some really ugly cream multiples the first half of last year. Have we increased churn capacity, and do we expect those multiples to be just as bad this year or have we increased churn capacity enough so that maybe they won’t quite get so bad? Gus Jacoby: We have increased churn capacity, certainly. I don’t know if it’s enough. Some dairymen around the country are feeding their rations a bit different and getting a little bit less butterfat out of the milk. I don’t think that’s enough, yet, to make too much change. I will anticipate having some very low multiples through the holidays and the spring flush. Ted Jacoby III: Okay. Diego, I’m gonna switch gears and come to you. We just talked about U.S. milk production. Gus thinks it’ll take about six months to turn. I hate to be really pessimistic, but my gut, and I just can’t shake this gut, is it’s gonna take longer than usual this time around. And we may see it go well past nine months before we see a real turn. [00:08:00] We may see the number get better simply because we’re measuring against strength, but that doesn’t mean we actually see a change in trend. What about Europe and some of the other milking regions in the world, is it gonna take that long us to see some changes in milk production in those regions? Diego Carvallo: If you just go to the fundamentals and you analyze that the European farmer usually has a smaller scale, and that means that their costs tend to be a little bit on the higher end. They do not have access to capital as there is in the U.S. There’s more restrictions when it comes to environmental, and overall I would say they have more headwinds than the U.S. So, if you add to all of those headwinds, the price headwind, the reaction on milk production to lower prices should be faster than in the U.S. The same applies to South America. But we’ve talked a lot about Chinese production, we know that in that country, there are way more things to take into account. Ted Jacoby III: [00:09:00] So, we’ve been talking a lot about the supply side today. We’re just overwhelming supply on the butter side; we’re overwhelming demand to a lesser extent, but still on the cheese side. Josh, protein still tends to be the shining star. But are we getting to a point where we’re starting to get some pushback on protein prices? And is that going to continue to be the lone bull in an overall bearish dairy market, or do we need to be concerned there too? Josh White: I don’t think we’re getting pushback at the prices quite yet. Does that mean I think that these prices are palatable over the long term? I’m unsure. But what we are seeing right now is lack of availability and no quick ability by the European market or the U.S. market to scale production to meet the demand, which means that ultimately, the demand for WPC 80 and WPI and then some of the more value-added proteins, particularly in the whey complex, like the clear WPIs, the acidified products and others, the demand is outpacing our ability to supply it. What that’s [00:10:00] doing is forcing utilization segments or customers that can’t compete in terms of price for that available supply to look to alternatives. We’re starting to see more and more of that. As a commodity trader, we expect that to happen quicker than it does. So, already in early 2025, we were looking towards MPCs, casein-related products and others to pick up some of that demand because they’re much lower value. And I don’t think that the average customer in the market that’s using whey proteins fully recognize the functional differences between whey proteins and milk proteins. And they certainly don’t realize that milk protein concentrate has whey protein in it. Generally speaking, the average consumer doesn’t know the difference in these products. That’s not a fault of theirs. Particularly going into CPG applications and further processing, this is an ingredient. An ingredient that has a lot of label recognition and popularity right now for all the reasons we’ve talked about in prior podcasts: GLP-1 driven demand, [00:11:00] health and wellness movements globally, a lot of other reasons. Is that an early indication that enough time has now passed that the relative value of whey protein above the competing, but still quite valuable proteins in the dairy complex, are gonna result in substitution both substitution within the dairy category to whey protein to milk protein concentrates to micellar casein to WPC 70, also known as WPPC, whey protein phospholipid concentrate (WPPC) ProCream. There’s a lot of different names for these products. That’s likely to happen. But it also, unfortunately, might result in a lot of categories pushing to non-dairy proteins. There’s a lot of information out there, things put on by ADPI and others talking about the protein power of dairy and how digestible it is. How high quality it is for your conversion rate, why it’s such a popular thing. But if you can’t get supply, you’re forced to look to alternatives. And so, we’re starting to see some of that [00:12:00] happen. So, a couple things that I’ve heard anecdotally in the market over the past few weeks in particular, but it’s been happening over the last few months are: get us samples of milk protein concentrate. One of our customers is suspending a certain SKU on the shelf because they can’t get the supply. This price simply won’t work for our application. So, we won’t buy this product at above this price. So, we are triggering some thresholds. And triggering thresholds is gonna have some type of balancing result in the industry. Whether that’s enough to support the milk protein side of the equation, I don’t know. We have a limit to the ability to respond to this demand. You have to order equipment, you have to get the bank lending, you’ve gotta get the design. It takes a long time to increase capacity. That’s all gonna come into play and impact this market and the balance of this market in 2026. Now, if you’re asking me, is my gut that we hold these high prices or even higher prices without some reversal in the price [00:13:00] action for whey proteins in 2026? I’m not ready to say that it’s just here or higher in 26, but is it here or higher in the first quarter? Absolutely. Is it here higher in the second quarter, probably. Is it here or higher after that? I become a little bit skeptical. And to be clear, that’s not because the demand isn’t there right now. The demand feels like it’s there. I just don’t know how the market balances it out without pushing the price just too high in the short term for the market to digest it and pass it through. I also think that when you’re talking about the dairymen and you’re talking about the cheese makers, there is two different classes here. There is the class of those that make whey proteins and the class of those that do not. That has a material impact on profitability throughout the supply chain. Additionally, we’ve got a lot of milk in the U.S. We’ve got a lot of milk in the world right now, and the milk in the Northern hemisphere altogether is only gonna increase from here through the first half of [00:14:00] the year. That milk is gonna need to be processed. The incremental milk production will result in incremental whey protein availability, which means that those whey solids from cheese processors they have to find a market. If you can’t make the valuable product of WPC 80 and WPI, you have to explore the other alternatives, which are simply not experiencing the robust demand of those two categories. Sweet whey powder, whey protein concentrate 34% (WPC 34) and some of these other products, they have a limit to what people are willing to pay. History tells us, at least for sweet whey powder, we’re testing those limits. Ted Jacoby III: For sweet whey powder, we are, the question is, is this happening for whey protein? And that’s a harder one to answer. Josh White: Absolutely. Ted Jacoby III: I did some back of the envelope math. As a country, we produce 8% to 9% more milk in May on a daily basis than we do in November. If half of that milk goes into cheese, we’ll produce 8% more cheese and 8% perhaps more whey protein. The solids change, too. So, maybe it’s not a full [00:15:00] 8%, but is 8% enough to tip the scale on whey protein demand? And I don’t know, given the demand complex for whey, I think for cheese it’s gonna feel very burdensome. I think for butter, it would probably feel pretty burdensome. The butter market we’re kind of used to it because of the way the demand curve looks, but I just don’t know when it comes to whey, if that’s enough to put some pressure on this market and bring those prices down. Josh White: Well, it depends on what you’re talking about because you could argue that the WPC and WPI facilities are bringing in outside whey solids. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. As their own milk and their own whey generation increases seasonally, that’s gonna push whey solids back to somebody else. So, all 8% in your hypothesis there, I doubt contributes to an 8% increase in whey protein production. Because the available capacity isn’t there? Josh White: Correct. Now, is there production efficiencies that are still gonna be gained? Are there those out there that are expanding a bit [00:16:00] that we’re unaware of? Are there orders for new equipment in the system that might be closer to realization than we think? All possible. And we can’t ignore Europe. I don’t feel like I can adequately represent what the expansion model looks like in Europe right now for whey proteins. What I can say is that at least for the U.S. and Europe, our internal demand is currently absorbing a greater percentage of our production than ever before, and that’s leaving the rest of the world that was buying product from those two markets, having to search for that protein elsewhere. Ted Jacoby III: Mm-hmm. Josh White: And, this is being a bit over generic, but the rest of the world likely will be more willing to substitute than the U.S. or the European consumer to other products. Ted Jacoby III: I would agree with that. Everybody in our office is just leaning really bearish, just about everybody we talk to seems to be leaning really bearish. Josh White: Outside of Black Swan events: major trade disruptions, major production impacts that we can’t predict. If you’ve [00:17:00] been in the dairy industry long enough, you know to never bet against the dairymen and their ability to make milk. But it’s gotta be on the radar that the competitive dollars for those animals I don’t think has ever been as lucrative as it is right now. And those animals that they’re currently milking are older then typically they want them to be. So, if we shift this cycle quickly enough and violently enough, and that’s price, at what moment do we get surprised at what that residual response is? How many pent up animals find their way to slaughter? How quickly that could happen. And I think generally speaking, most of us would bet that the calf inside the dairy cow right now is worth enough to wait. And so, we’ve gotta get through the first half of the Northern Hemisphere season before we see much of an animal response. Ted Jacoby III: I think that’s a fair comment. Dairy farmers, especially the big financially astute ones, there’s a math equation. It’s like, this is my revenue [00:18:00] from milk. This is my maybe revenue from biofuels or wherever else. They have revenue streams from a cow that’s giving milk every day. This is the cost to maintain that cow. The variable cost feed, for example, being the big one. Well, when you’re getting $20, a hundredweight from your milk versus $13, a hundredweight for your milk. That equation has changed quite a bit, whereas the exit price, what you’re gonna get if you sell the cow hasn’t changed at all, which means your math equation, the exit possibility has definitely gone up. It’s more profitable to sell this cow than it used to be. Josh White: History tells us that the exits of the older dairymen and the smaller dairies doesn’t really change based on economic conditions, it’s relatively stable. Maybe there’s some risk that we have some pent up exits and some risk that it’s never been a better time to retire. Mm-hmm. And you get some smaller dairies that decide to exit. That doesn’t move the needle. Ted Jacoby III: I would suspect. You’re right. We’ll see. Josh White: One [00:19:00] quick remark that’s important is the outlook on demand. It seems like the market is very, very bearish because supply is outpacing demand globally and it’s in every major milk shed. But demand by import regions has been pretty good. Mm-hmm. They’ve been buying year over year, more dairy products. At the same time, I don’t believe there’s any region in the world that’s currently sitting on cumbersome overall dairy stocks, whether that’s from the import regions or the production regions. Everyone seems to be quite aware that you gotta stay in front of this. I don’t know how to interpret that. On one hand, you could say that based on some of the economic outlooks, globally, we shouldn’t be expecting things to get better. We should be expecting them to get at best the same or possibly even worse. On the other side of that equation is import dairy consumption and demand is growing and continues to grow, so it might be a painful period, but the long-term [00:20:00] outlook remains pretty good, and we just overreacted to some of the demand signals that we have. Credit to the dairymen in the world, being able to respond to signals that we needed more fat, not even a year ago. That whey protein demand’s good. I mean, the market has responded, but overall we’re not talking about an oversupply situation because demand’s bad. If you go granularly, like U.S. cheese consumption, doesn’t look real great right now. The outlook for overall economic health, I’m not an expert in that area, but I’m not seeing a lot of people talking about a rosy 12 to 24 months there. So, yeah, I think generally speaking, it’s easy to be bearish, but maybe that’s one thing to pay attention. Ted Jacoby III: You mentioned demand. I happened to be involved in a conversation yesterday with an equities trader and his comment about stock valuations, equities, valuations, which was really a demand comment, was, I’m just waiting to see what Christmas sales do. I think there’s a lot of people out there right now that are trying to get a feel for what’s [00:21:00] the long-term demand or the 2026 demand perspective, and I think a lot of them are gonna judge what it really is based on how this holiday season plays out. All right guys. Hey, thanks for a great conversation. I apologize to all the dairy farmers out there that I couldn’t give you any better news, but hang in there that good news will come eventually. That’s right.

J'ai commencé Feel Good Productivity, le bouquin d'Ali Abdaal.Un titre un peu doudou, une promesse sympa : bosser efficacement sans s'épuiser, sans se faire mal.Pour l'instant, je suis à 18 %, donc pas encore de révolution. Mais j'ai accroché à un truc : et si on abordait les tâches relou comme un jeu ?Le livre propose même d'identifier ton “profil de joueur·se”. Moi, je me reconnais en storyteller… avec une touche de Joker.

Kiera is joined by renowned cosmetic dentist Dr. Pia Lieb to talk about Dr. Lieb's journey in her field, as well as her insights into what the rich and famous ask for (and pay for) when it comes to their teeth. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today I am so excited. I have an incredible doctor on our podcast. Dr. Pia is coming to   from New York, Manhattan. And this woman is incredible. She has been able to build and sustain a high-end cosmetic practice. She's figured out how to be, you guys are gonna love this, a referral only destination for patients seeking discretion, innovation, and ultra-personalized care.   This woman has been named the Michelangelo of dentistry and I am so excited to welcome her on the podcast. Welcome Dr. Pia, how are you today?   Dr Pia (00:32) Thanks for having me, Kiera.   Kiera Dent (00:34) Of course. Well, I have been so excited about this podcast. I don't often get to bring clinical guests onto the podcast. And so to just kind of hear of how you do your cosmetic dentistry, how did you become this practice of being so sought after? ⁓ How did you become the Michelangelo of dentistry? So kind of just walk the listeners through how did Dr. Pia go from where she was to where she is today? Kind of just give us a background on, on who you are and what your story has been.   Dr Pia (01:04) Well, I'm gonna start with, it all started in dental school. There was a lecturer by the name of Dr. Gallup Evans who has passed away since. And he was giving a PG, which is obviously post-doctoral course on cosmetic dentistry. And his reputation was he was the one who did.   the supermodel Polina Povaskova's veneers back in the early 90s. And I went up to him after the lecture and I basically said, I'm a sponge, teach me, tell me what to do so I can do the same thing that you're doing. I've completely fell in love and cut out a class to go to that course. And after the course, he turned around to me and said, well,   sweetheart. You're either born with it or you're not. So I went home and I cried for five days.   and he completely tore me to shreds and that really got me upset and ⁓ I was a great student. was the youngest in NYU as a student. I graduated high school at 16. I was the nerd, right? And basically what I did is I was asked to start teaching after residency and that was my...   Kiera Dent (02:03) Absolutely.   Dr Pia (02:26) way to make sure that I would never allow anyone to speak to a student like that. And my whole point was, I want to empower the dental students. I don't want anyone to feel the way I did by this particular person. And basically I had nowhere to start. So I started taking all of these courses, these PG program courses, and I met up.   Kiera Dent (02:37) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (02:53) When I was actually in dental school, I went and I met the holy grail ceramist who invented veneers in America. And I went up to him and I said the same thing, I'm a sponge, please teach me. And he was like, great. Okay. You have a car. And I'm like, yes, I do. He goes, all right, come to the lab every Friday after school and every Saturday, let me teach you how to prep and how to do veneers. And this man who also passed away has taught me everything.   Kiera Dent (03:12) I'm   Dr Pia (03:23) that I know because the doctors were not doing it and there was only two guys in New York that were doing veneers in the 80s and in the 90s and those were older men in their 40s and they were not going to take a young 20 year old female and teach her what to do because they were you know insecure that we were going to take over the business from them.   So that's how it all started. And obviously, I taught for 18 years and I did do that what I set my mind to do. I wanted to give every one of my students the best experience that they can have with dentistry and with cosmetic dentistry. And we're still friends after all these years. So I must have done something right, that they still love me to invite me for dinners into their houses.   Kiera Dent (04:10) Thank   ⁓ I think that you're speaking to my own heart. mean, having that love   being in the dental colleges, of   to give back, like that's the whole reason Dental A Team exists was because of those students that you just fall in love with. And kudos to you because I got really lucky and I worked at Midwestern University's Dental College in Arizona. And I have been told that the culture there and the experience there is not like most dental schools. It was a very empowering, very enriching. There was no smashing of models. There was no...   ⁓ destroying people's dreams, but I know that that's not everywhere. so kudos to you for ⁓ making a stance and also not giving up on your dream. And I think something I took from that is how often are we maybe told something that's not true and we believe it. We take that on as an identity and yes, crying for five days. I don't blame you, I would have done the same thing, but ⁓ it is.   Dr Pia (05:03) No, it's demoralizing, you know, like it's   just here you are, you're this young bright-eyed and bushy-tailed eager beaver who wants to be the best at her profession and then you get some 50 year old man telling you, ⁓ honey, you can't do this, you gotta be born with it. I'm like, really?   Kiera Dent (05:20) Hmm.   Maybe I am born with it and have you seen it. ⁓   Dr Pia (05:25) And you know what I was and that's that's the   thing and it's just but it's the way he said it but we'll get back to karma because 18 years go by and he was lecturing again and karma if it's a small I don't want to say the b word on a podcast but   Kiera Dent (05:42) Mmm.   Hahaha   Dr Pia (05:51) it is. So he's got the lecture, same thing, same before and afters. And this time I'm wearing a white lab coat and scrubs underneath and I had you know, and at this point, I was clinical assistant professor and there were like 350 doctors in the audience. And he's like, Does anyone have anything to say? And I'm at the back wall, I wasn't sitting down, I was standing up and I raised my hand and I was like,   He goes, and he goes, I know that name. You're in press and you're my competition. And he was like, and you know, what is it that I said? said, you know what? Thanks to you, I am who I am today. I want to say thank you. If you didn't say this to me and make me go home and cry for five days, I wouldn't have.   done everything humanly possible to be your competition and here I am I didn't know if he was gonna slap me or kick me out or just whatever it was but it was not what I and he said you know come on down and just tell us more about it he goes you've got so much pressure all over the place and it was funny because at that point   Kiera Dent (06:52) Ha!   Dr Pia (07:08) That was like maybe 10 months after I did 10 episodes on TLC of 10 years younger. And I was all over the place. Like everybody knew me from TV and from press and ⁓ the New York Times wrote that I'm the Michelangelo in Smile Boutique. And it just got to that point. I got the recognition that I worked so hard for. he was like, all right, give me a hug. I was like, thank God.   to   get a slap. But I was ready to get like thrown out or to. So that's kind of what I wanted to do is I just want to empower every single person out there. And you have to understand, when I went to school, we there were no women, it was 97 % men, we had   Kiera Dent (07:43) You   Dr Pia (08:02) maybe seven girls in the graduating class. I mean, not that we had a lot. We have much smaller classes back then and we were 97, but seven out of 97 is a low percentage.   Kiera Dent (08:14) That is,   yeah. Wow, that's such a fun, ⁓ I think kudos to you. And one of my favorite lines through life has been, life is not happening to us, it's happening for us. And I'm sure in that moment, you felt like life was happening to you. Like, who is this jerk? And they destroyed my dreams. And yet, ⁓ again, not to say that that's ever the right route to go. But I just want to highlight and compliment of you took something that people could have said would be sour grapes and you actually turned it into beautiful wine.   and you turned it into something beautiful and it was fuel to your fire to make you into this incredible woman that the world needed. And so I'm very curious, how did you then go from, okay, here we are, how'd you become this renowned cosmetic dentist, getting on TLC, getting all the press, like what was kind of the way to get into that? Because I'm sure there's a lot of dentists who want to live your dream. How did you do it?   Dr Pia (09:04) I think the   way in was truly like in 1998 or 99, I don't remember what year it was, but it was the first gen art fashion show for Fashion Week in New York where they took up and coming young designers and they had a private fashion show with about 10 of small up and coming, which we don't have anymore. mean, New York Fashion Week is no longer what   used to be. But I go there and I had a patient from Belgium who had a really good friend who was an up and coming crazy French designer and he was showing the runway and I just basically went with her and I remember that we were after the fashion show there was a VIP with champagne and we got these wristbands and so forth and my   my patient was, you know, late 30s, single and ready to mingle. And there was this really cute male model that did the runway for ⁓ another designer that wasn't as big. And she was like, my God, he's so cute. And here I was, I had no makeup on, right?   Kiera Dent (10:07) Yeah.   Dr Pia (10:23) this long Margiela dress and I have like Doc Marten boots, my hair up in a ponytail, just like mascara and red lips on. And I went up to this guy and I said, hi, I'm Dr. Pia. You know, my friend Jacqueline wants to meet you. And he had this woman who was next to him and she was like, you gotta talk to me. I'm his booker. I didn't know what a booker was. So I'm like, what's a booker? I thought it was like the, you know, betting on horses, know, like booking, you know, that's what I thought.   Kiera Dent (10:47) Yeah.   Yeah.   Dr Pia (10:53) And basically, ⁓ I was like, No, no, no, I'm just, you know, we're going behind if you guys want to come and join us at the after party behind and he was like, great, she goes, No, no, no, we can't go anywhere. You got to go through me. And I'm like, Okay, I said, Look, I'm a cosmetic dentist. And back then we had cards, right? So I was like, Here's my card. She goes, I want one, too. And I and   Yeah, that was it. had some drinks afterwards. And she was like, Yeah, I want to come in as a patient. I have to come in first before he comes in. Because he said he needed his teeth done. I was like, okay, so the next morning, I'm like, live it at like nine o'clock. I call Wilhelmina who was like back then the number one modeling agency for men. And I call and I'm like, Can I speak to Jennifer and   Kiera Dent (11:32) Yeah.   Dr Pia (11:47) She picks up the phone. I'm like, hi, it's dr. P again. I'm like, I just want to make it really clear I'm married. I do not I am NOT picking up on on your male model It was my friend who was interested just making putting it out there and being totally transparent. So she's like fine I Want an appointment so I booked her and the moment that I booked her She introduced me to the modeling industry. So then I started getting all the models   Kiera Dent (11:57) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (12:13) the supermodels, I got everybody in and I think that's how it all started with the press and everything because they've seen my work with the modeling industry and that's how kind of it all started and the thing with me it's always been privacy it's I've never named names I will never name names because it's like plastic surgery if you're going to go in and get a facelift do want it to be plastered all over the press I don't think so so it's the same thing with veneers I mean I do very   natural handmade porcelain and the whole secret that I think to my success is I've never gone into that chicklity white Hollywood smile the toilet bowl teeth or the turkey teeth as now they all go to Turkey to have them done well I've never done that so for me I've always followed what I believe in and did the best that I can and I think that that is as long as you love what you do   Kiera Dent (12:55) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Dr Pia (13:12) and try to be the best that you can be. think the universe, no matter what God you believe in, you know, I think the universe gives it back to you.   Kiera Dent (13:23) I think, well, and also what I heard from that is kudos to you for just going and meeting people and for being out there. Like, I don't think people realize the power of connections, the power of human interaction, the power of who you know. I think we're in such a society where it's all online and we just think, which you can still connect online, but like, don't be afraid to say hi to people. Don't be afraid to introduce yourselves and...   Like I said at the beginning, Dr. Pia, it's very rare that I bring on clinical guests to the podcast. So I'm curious, you work on supermodels, you work on really incredible people. I have a doctor, which we will not name names either, who works on movie stars in LA. so I have a couple of questions and if you don't want to answer by all, you probably do. We will chat post show and see, exactly off call. ⁓ But.   Dr Pia (14:07) I probably know him. If it's it, we'll do it all off, off.   Kiera Dent (14:15) I'm curious, Dr. Pia, just for listeners to know, what is like, I'm gonna ask a few questions and like I said, privacy and respect are my number one. So if there's something that you're like, I'm not gonna answer by all means, audience just know Dr. Pia is so kind to come onto the podcast for us and I did not prep her because I never know what I'm gonna ask. It's just a genuine curious host over here wanting to know, what are the average cases like dollar wise, our low end to our high end of cases that you're doing?   I just want people to know, because I think people do not believe that this is real life dentistry and it can be.   Dr Pia (14:51) You're talking about veneers or you're talking about all the procedures. Veneers. Veneers are from three to 45, 100 or two. It depends. mean, if someone is a massive grinder and I've got issues with them.   Kiera Dent (14:54) I would say let's do veneers and then let's do other procedures.   Dr Pia (15:12) having, you know, doing the grinding at night, felspathic, I'm a little bit weary of doing that and I'll do the 3D printed. ⁓ As much as I'm not the greatest fan of doing that, I would rather keep them in a night guard and let them have the beautiful teeth. But it basically is... ⁓   Kiera Dent (15:19) Totally.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (15:35) You know, for the handmade porcelain, I mean, there are some people out there that are charging over five. And I think that's just a little bit exaggerated because I know how much it costs me to make. think, you know, 4500 is a fair price. You don't have to go above five. I think that's just the ingredient.   Kiera Dent (15:42) Totally.   Sure.   Mm-hmm. Which I appreciate that you say that, especially with the press and with the people that you worked on. You have an opportunity to charge more, but you're also being ethical and fair, which I think ties to the passion, the love, the reason people can trust you. So how many veneers, this is like, now I'm gonna just be like a nerdy patient. How many, because I feel like a lot of people just want like the four veneers and then the six and then.   Dr Pia (16:15) Alright, come on, bring it on!   Kiera Dent (16:20) Do you just do all of them? there a space where clinically you recommend like we stop here for smile lines? What's kind of your, what's your, what's your clinical excellence on this? What do you recommend?   Dr Pia (16:25) No!   I think you should have either one or as many as you need. think the biggest problem and the... Okay, now you got me. So my competition in New York will only do 10. And he's my former student.   Kiera Dent (16:37) I'm ready. She got fired up everybody. Juicy like sits up.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (16:51) which is even more infuriating to me. Like I so disagree because I think if you have a beautiful smile and let's say you fell and you've had a root canal and the tooth is starting to change color. I think if you're a good clinician and a good clinician is a cosmetic dentist, I don't believe a GP could do this. Okay. And men, we have the issue with 40 % are colorblind. So that's another issue altogether.   Kiera Dent (16:52) That's   I do remember there was a girl in dental school who couldn't like really see and I was like, how do you like she couldn't see colors and I'm like, how do you, how do you, how do you get over that as a dentist? I'm just curious. I can't check the color, right? Okay, so making sure you think that you can do one if you're a good clinician, which is, love this. Cause people tell me all the time, you can't do one.   Dr Pia (17:29) Well, they get the dental assistant to choose the color.   I do one. do one. So I do one.   I do one. I'll do two. If you're if you ground I do four.   I'll do six, I'll do 10, I'll do 12. If the person has a really big smile and it's a color correction like a tetracycline case, then I have to do 12, you know, like, because it depends if you're someone that has this uber large mouth, then and you when you smile, you go back to the second molars, you have to do it. But I feel that this whole entire ⁓   doing 10 or nothing. think that is so unfair to the patients. And I think it's such bad karma as well, because it's going to come back and bite you later on, because I don't feel that everyone has to have that many done. And the other thing that I'm actually known for is the fact that I don't believe that   you have to necessarily file the tooth down. If the teeth are in the correct position, okay let's back it up. If the teeth are not in the correct position do Invisalign first and then do the handcrafted veneers because the way I do them they're as thin as a contact lens so there is no drilling needed. Anytime why I wouldn't want anyone to drill my teeth to put veneers on why are you taking away to add on it's an   Kiera Dent (18:42) Love.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (19:08) moron right so if you are a true cosmetic dentist and know how to do this and have the right support of the right ceramist they should be see-through   Kiera Dent (19:09) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Dr Pia (19:24) So if that's the case, there's no drilling involved. And if you need only one, just do one. There's no reason to spend that money on doing more if you don't need them.   Kiera Dent (19:32) It's incredible.   which I'm so grateful to hear this. This is why I was so excited. I'm like, I have so many questions about this and I'm just curious of how you do it and to hear that being really talented at this, you don't need to do more than that because I hear all the time like, well, if you only do four, then you're gonna see it, but I don't disagree with you. think if you're good at what you, and this isn't just dentists. I also think dentists, well, I'm gonna go out on a limb. Now I'm fired up to be, like, here we go.   Dr Pia (20:02) No, no, they   want the money. It's clear as day. They're doing it for the money.   Kiera Dent (20:06) Right.   Well, and also I'm like, if you're not good enough to be able to do one without it looking like a chicklet, I might question, you good enough to be doing this in general? And that I know is a very bold statement, but I might get really good at this. I don't disagree.   Dr Pia (20:18) No, they should not be doing them. I'm sorry, they should   not be doing it. And with felspathic, with the handmade porcelain, it... I can't say it enough. One is not a problem.   Kiera Dent (20:35) Okay, let's talk about different labs and how do you choose a good lab for ceramic, for cosmetic cases? Like what's the difference? I mean, I've heard some people that are printing ⁓ Emax crowns for the front and I wanna like cringe and I'm like, ⁓ that feels really bad. So let's talk about like, how do you pick a good lab? What's the difference of a good lab? How is it handmade versus not? Like what are some of those nuances within the cosmetic world that really make a difference on being able to do one versus having to do eight to 10?   Dr Pia (20:48) No, no, no, no, I didn't write.   Kiera Dent (21:03) because you're gonna see lines and it's gonna look different.   Dr Pia (21:06) Okay, so I'm a nerd. I'm going to give you the whole entire background. Okay. ⁓ So basically the handmade porcelain is felspathic and it can be as thin as 0.16 of a millimeter, which is technically a contact lens. Okay. It's thinner than your natural fingernail, not with gel on it or powder, you know, polish. I'm talking about a natural fingernail. So having said that,   Kiera Dent (21:08) I love it. I want this.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (21:33) Now in the way that those are made they're done on platinum foil so you take the model of the teeth they put platinum foil which is also like super super thin microns it's you know anywhere between 10 microns 20 microns okay and then on that porcelain on that platinum foil the porcelain multiple colors multiple translucencies get added on and that's   the veneer is made. Okay so that's how we're able to have them super thin. The 3D printing, different story altogether. So 3D printing needs to have minimum   Kiera Dent (22:05) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Dr Pia (22:17) between 1.5 to 2 millimeters of thickness. So those right there are thick. Okay, so that's why you need to file. Otherwise, everything is gonna be out. That's why they need to do 10 because they can't match the flatness of a natural tooth. So those are done by a computer. So what you do is you scan with the feldspathic. You still have to take good old fashioned impressions because the model has to be poured in   Kiera Dent (22:22) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (22:47) it cannot be on plastic to do the platinum foil. With the 3D printing, with 3D printing veneers and crowns, you basically just scan the tooth, send it via, you know, the cloud. It gets to the lab, they print out the model, and then they start designing the shape and the size of what they want the veneer or the crown to look like.   Kiera Dent (22:51) Interesting.   Dr Pia (23:14) and then they have this block which is like about this big and it's like a disc it's like an oversized hockey puck okay and out of those they usually get out of those hockey pucks usually they get 25 crowns and veneers like either or okay ⁓   Kiera Dent (23:22) Mm-hmm. Okay.   Sure, okay.   Dr Pia (23:35) Now those blocks you have to understand they come in one solid color and very opaque hence why they look like toilet bowls like you can see like ⁓ Simon from What is it the the show with America's Got Talent right now his teeth walk in before him   Kiera Dent (23:55) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (23:58) They're so white and chalky. He had them done and they're too big, personal. I mean, I think they're too, he's too horsey. He should have stayed with the veneers he had before because they looked more natural and.   Kiera Dent (23:58) It's true.   Dr Pia (24:12) But that's the problem. If you have them very, if you have the 3D printed, the opacity is one solid, you know, base that the computer then drills that hockey puck to form the crowns and the veneers. So you're never going to get the aesthetics of having incisal translucency or having a halo or having them nice and flat. You're not, because the computer is going to make them the thickness that   Kiera Dent (24:33) right?   Dr Pia (24:41) They cannot drill those any thinner than that because they're going to break.   Kiera Dent (24:46) So this is fascinating and I love this because now I have more quite like being an assistant, also having worked in this, also having gone to labs, also having like things done for family and friends that I know. Are you a fan of custom shading where you send your patients to the lab or how, okay, so how do you get it to where it's like a perfect shade match, like consistently, any tips that you have to make it to where it is really that absolutely perfect, making your smiles.   Dr Pia (25:04) Hell no.   Kiera Dent (25:15) beyond perfect without sending them to a lab. Because I think a lot of people hold back and they're like, I've got to send it. But I've seen a lot of dentists where they'll try to put the shading in, they try to put the translucency in. This is no knock on dentists. This is like, hey, we've got an expert here. Let's ask how she does it so we can all rise up.   Dr Pia (25:30) Okay, honestly, I take the patient to the window. My whole main thing is every single office that I've built, I need to have windows that are five feet tall.   and sunlight. So I'm able just to move the patient to the window. And that's where the talent comes in. I'm able to take shade without a shade guide. I mean, I'm at that point, but I've been doing this for decades now. So it's like at the beginning, I wasn't so I would do the shade guide and I would write it on a piece of paper and just be like, okay, the neck is an A two and then we have an A one body and then we have translucency of two millimeters and a halo and I just draw it.   Kiera Dent (25:41) Fascinating.   Dr Pia (26:10) and then they would make every single veneer with the same recipe. It's almost like cooking. But the window and natural sunlight is the key. Because all these computers that you put up against your tooth, all due respect.   Kiera Dent (26:15) I see. Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.   That's great.   they shade it differently.   Dr Pia (26:29) it's not only   that you have to understand everybody's tooth is a different length okay like your centrals are fairly long for the average person right that particular shade guide is not going to read color on your tooth that you probably have 12 millimeter long centrals and i'm diagnosing you over the video right so that particular   Kiera Dent (26:35) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Hey, thank you. Yeah.    Dr Pia (26:58) light source is not going to be able to read 12 millimeters perfectly from the gum line to the incisal. It's just not going to happen. You're going to need and if you're not good at taking shade, go do endo or oral surgery or ortho.   Kiera Dent (27:07) Right.   It's true cosmetic is about I feel it's about the precision. It's about the aesthetics and like there I mean I hire designer to do my house. I'm not going to do it. I know that that is not my forte. I'm really good at other things, but I'm not good at color matching and what goes well together and how to put this together. It's just not my strength and skill set and I really do believe like this is what I think going back to your original professor speaker lecturer who   completely dash your dreams. I think maybe possibly what he meant was, I think there's some people who have a natural eye for cosmetic and aesthetics and there's other people who maybe don't. And I think you can adapt it and evolve it and become, and you have clearly proven that. But my guess is, I mean, hearing that you're even on fashion week, my hunch is you already by default had a very strong fashion aesthetic. Maybe you didn't, but I would guess that that kind of has been a part of you.   Dr Pia (28:07) No, I did. did.   And you know, I do like my own makeup and I know my colors and things like that. And so that helped. I have to say that really did help me quite a bit.   Kiera Dent (28:11) Mm-hmm.   which is why you were drawn   to this. You had the passion, fire, because you already knew that.   Dr Pia (28:21) And I loved it and I was like, how can I? And then what the other thing is like, you may not know you have it. So the other thing what I say is buy some art books. That's what I did. Buy some art books. Get to learn the difference between the chroma and the hue and just take a couple of art classes and see if you have it.   And if not, what can you pick up and learn from those art classes if you really want to do it? And I'm not trying to be sexist by any means, but I do think that women are better at it because of color. And I think we're a lot more patient because the way I do it is I do diagnostic wax ups on every case, whether it's one tooth, unless it's even with the prepless veneers where I don't touch the tooth.   Kiera Dent (28:52) Yeah.   Dr Pia (29:16) I still do the wax ups to see I've had all let me backtrack a little bit but I've had every single 2d program   in the last what 16 years that they've been out more than 16 years okay and it's not the same when you see yourself in a photo with the size and shape and color that you might want okay it's like using it's like using the apps to change your hair color i'm   Kiera Dent (29:32) Wow.   I agree.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (29:50) the strongest belief that if you do want to change your hair color, I think you should try on a wig and wear it for a couple of days. So that that whole entire ⁓   Kiera Dent (29:58) Yeah, I don't disagree.   Dr Pia (30:03) philosophy that I have what I do is I do the diagnostic wax-ups I do the indexes and without drilling the teeth the patients come in and I pop it over their teeth, you know with the Luxe attempt, know the temporary material that sets over it and I tell them to walk out with it and You know, it's not bonded on or anything. They can just take their fingernail and just pop it all off But go out let your family see it. Let your partner see it. See how you feel. Is it too long?   Kiera Dent (30:22) Mm-hmm.   Dr Pia (30:33) Is it too square? Is it too round? I'm allowed to have my opinion, but you're paying me and if your opinion is different than mine You have you should have the right as a patient to get what you want. Not what I want We have to come somewhere in between sometimes like I'll put my foot down and I'll be like you really don't want them that way   Kiera Dent (30:49) Mm-hmm. And I'm glad...   You're right. We don't want them to make a statement before you walk in the room. That's what we're going to just highlight here. But hey, if you want white white, like at the end of the day, that's what they're going to have. I love that you, ⁓ I think this is probably what's made you really great. I don't know. I've heard a lot about you. But I think what you do is you make sure that the patients are obsessed with the results and not that Dr. Pia is obsessed. Like you're obsessed with the craftsmanship of what you've done.   You're really talented at that. But like hearing that you let people walk out and go try these on and what is it going to be like before you do it? That to me says that you are so obsessed about the outcome and the result for the patient. And then your job is to make sure you have the most excellent craftsmanship, the best product, the best techniques, the best method to get them the outcome they want. And I think hearing that, I'm just so proud of you. And I'm so grateful to hear that there are clinicians in our industry that   are obsessed about that rather than the reverse. Because I think some people are obsessed about maybe the dollar, maybe about doing these types of cases, but they're not the best at it, or this is what I think that they should look like. You really want to make sure that that patient is like a walking raving fan of you before you even do the work on them. And that I think is very special about you.  

In today's episode, we continue our myeloma series, this time we'll delve deeper into the spectrum of plasma cell dyscrasias, including defining MGUS, discussing surveillance of MGUS, defining smoldering myeloma (SM). We are slowly inching our discussion towards the diagnosis of Multiple myeloma (MM)!Content:- Defining MGUS- Discussing risk of progression of MGUS to MM- How to interpret free light chains in renal failure- How do we monitor MGUS patients?- When do we do additional testing in MGUS?- What is smoldering myeloma?- What are myeloma defining events?- How do we risk stratify SM patients?- How do we monitor SM patients? Want to review the show notes for this episode and others? Check out our website: https://www.thefellowoncall.com/our-episodesThis episode has been sponsored by Primum. To sign up for a free account, check out: tfoc.primum.co ** Want to review the show notes for this episode and others? Check out our website: Love what you hear? Tell a friend and leave a review on our podcast streaming platforms!Twitter: @TheFellowOnCallInstagram: @TheFellowOnCallListen in on: Apple Podcast, Spotify, and Youtube

This could be consider our first full Prediction Market focused guest. CSP Trading was an early MM on prediction markets before we had even heard of them. He walks us through the history of PMs through his experience trading on them and growing with the space to where they are now.0:00 Getting Started in PMs13:24 Early Prediction Market War Stories37:45 Insider Trading in PMs45:00 Getting Into Sports56:30 Market Making Strategies1:33:00 Q&AWelcome to The Risk Takers Podcast, hosted by professional sports bettor John Shilling (GoldenPants13) and SportsProjections. This podcast is the best betting education available - PERIOD. And it's free - please share and subscribe if you like it.My website: https://www.goldenpants.com/ Follow SportsProjections on Twitter: https://x.com/Sports__ProjWant to work with my betting group?: john@goldenpants.comWant 100s of +EV picks a day?: https://www.goldenpants.com/gp-picks

Welcome back to the 263rd episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 263rd episode we bring you a Duet Review of Invasion: Christmas Carol, a Dickensian holiday improv extravaganza presented by Knifefight Theatre in association with One Four One Collective and the Assembly Theatre. Join Jillian Robinson and Ryan Borochovitz, as they discuss Victorian japes, demonic babies, and the sex life of Ebenezer Scrooge.Invasion: Christmas Carol is playing at the Assembly Theatre (1479 Queen St W, Toronto, ON) until December 14th, 2025. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.theassemblytheatre.com/invasionchristmascarol Follow Knifefight Theatre to read about all of the other invaders you may have missed: @knifefighttheatre Follow our panelists: Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96 Ryan Borochovitz – [Just send all that love to CoH instead; he won't mind!]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 262nd episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 262nd episode we bring you a Duet Review of Moonlight Schooner, written by Kanika Ambrose, directed by Sabryn Rock, a Necessary Angel Theatre Company production in association with Canadian Stage and Tarragon Theatre. Join Associated Artistic Producer Jillian Robinson and new guest Divine Angubua as they discuss the importance of identifying the individual, the need for community, and the necessary role of text & movement to penetrate the never ending cycle of colonial oppression. Moonlight Schooner is playing at Berkeley Street Theatre (26 Berkeley St.) from November 21st to December 14th, 2025. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://my.canadianstage.com/overview/9330 This review contains many SPOILERS for Moonlight Schooner. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [14:53] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96 Divine Angubua– Instagram: @ angubua_for_presidentFollow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 261st episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 261st episode we bring you a Duet Review of he Unauthorized Hallmark(ish) Parody Musical, with book by Tim Drucker and Bonnie Milligan, music by Joel Waggoner and lyrics by Tim Drucker, Bonnie Milligan and Joel Waggoner, directed by Tim Drucker, produced by Paquin Exhibitions & Theatrical and presented by FEVER. Join Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie Horner and Associate Artistic Producer Jillian Robinson, as they discuss all the clever homages to Hallmark Christmas movie tropes, the show's very catchy songs, and the twist ending! The Unauthorized Hallmark(ish) Parody Musical is playing at The Royal Theatre (608 College Street, Toronto, M6G 1B4) from November 20th, 2025 to January 4th, 2026. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://bit.ly/3MGQx1rThis review contains many SPOILERS for The Unauthorized Hallmark(ish) Parody Musical. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [13:50] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 260th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 260th episode we bring you a Duet Review of BUG, written by Tracy Letts, directed by Andrew Cameron, presented by The King Black Box in partnership with Elkabong Theatre Projects. Join Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie Horner and new panelist Istvan Dugalin, as they discuss the tricks of stage combat and how brilliantly this production pulled it off, if this production should have kept the intermission break, and all the details and hidden symbolism woven into the production design of this piece. BUG is playing at The King Black Box (1224 King Street West, 3rd floor -no elevator) from Nov 28th to Dec 13th. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.thekingblackbox.com/event-details/bug-by-tracy-letts-2025-12-13-20-00 This review contains many SPOILERS for BUG. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [17:18] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: @BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Istvan Dugalin – Instagram: @istvandugalinWebsite: https://istvandugalin.com/Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 259th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 259th episode we bring you a Duet Review of Shrek the Musical, with book and lyrics by David Lindsay-Abaire and music by Jeanine Tesori, directed by Herbie Barnes, presented by Young People's Theatre. Join host and Co-Artistic Producer Mackenzie Horner and Associate Artistic Producer Jillian Robinson, as they discuss the strengths of YPT's abridged adaptation, the majesty and ingenuity of this production's dragon puppet and the inventive ways the show found its balance between individuality and honouring the past films and major productions that proceeded it.Shrek the Musical is playing on the Ada Slaight Stage (165 Front Street East, Toronto, ON M5A 3Z4) from Nov 13th – Dec 30th, 2025. Tickets can be purchased from the following link: https://www.youngpeoplestheatre.org/tickets/shrek/This review contains many SPOILERS for Shrek the Musical. It will begin with a general non-spoiler review until the [16:18] mark, followed by a more in-depth/anything goes/spoiler-rich discussion. If you intend to see the production, we recommend you stop watching after that point, or at least proceed at your own risk. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Trish shares with Tiff and listeners her experience with a practice that started with a whole lot of uncertainty under a new doctor, and the steps undertaken that lead to a thriving workplace within a year. Specifically, she touches on how trust, flexibility, and numbers each played a role in this success story. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am so excited to be here today. We are, I have Trish here with me. So we are here just hanging out today and we, I'm so excited actually that we did this at 8 a.m. It's way more fun. At first I was like, ⁓ that is early to be ready. But then, know, we're like, spray our hair's great. Our makeup is fresh. Like it's actually super fun. So thank you for spending your morning with me Trish. How are you today? We are hot to try.   DAT Trish Ackerman (00:27) Thank you. We are hot to trot.   The Dental A Team (00:31) Trish, I got to love on you already twice, so go listen to the buyers and the sellers version of practice ownership, you guys, because you'll get to hear how amazing Trish is. But I want to pull a random on you, Trish. And I have not asked in a while, and I think that the Dental A Team listeners in the world out there needs to hear, how are the piggies? And yes, I said pigs, like oink oink, how are the piggies?   DAT Trish Ackerman (00:56) The piggies are great. So I do have two pigs and ⁓ they are very well known with my friends and my colleagues. I have, it's Miss Daisy and Joey and that is spelled J-O-Y-E. And well, they're doing great. However, winter's here is coming. It's winter in Arizona. we think they don't like the cold. They don't like the cold at all. So we have been having some loud piggies that like to come indoors and they do. So we have in and out pigs to go in and out with dogs.   The Dental A Team (01:07) course.   Yeah.   Ugh.   Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (01:26) We have a total podcast just about that. anybody's thinking about getting a pig, please call me first.   The Dental A Team (01:30) Yeah, yeah, and that's true.   I, Trish, I think actually, like, save the pigs. I think that's a really good point because I and we can, you can take any theory and apply it to anything, right? Anything, everything looks great. ⁓ And when you're in it, you realize maybe I didn't do enough research, right? So this sounds like a great idea, but maybe I didn't do enough research. And I've known people, aside from you who have had   pigs as pets. And I know one family that just thrived loved their pig and ⁓ they live a long time. You guys, there's a lot to know about pigs. are incredibly smart. ⁓ but I do believe they're very smart to the point of like stubbornness, right? But there's like so much to learn and Trish, something that everyone should know is a passion of yours is these, the pig projects.   Right? And that stems from that right there, in my opinion, of people not understanding what they're getting into. When I was young, I wanted nothing more than a little pig. I wanted a little piggy. Right? And so many people in the early 2000s, in the 90s, they got a little piggy. And what happens to a little piggy, Trish? This little cute little oinker does what?   DAT Trish Ackerman (02:49) it gets real big real quick and then it roots everything and people are not prepared very and loud we prepare yes life's not   The Dental A Team (02:50) They're so big!   They're so big, they're so destructive.   loud. My mom was like, you're not getting a pig. Yeah. Thank God.   So, so everyone knows Trish does, she volunteers ⁓ for, there's a whole, the whole place here, the volunteer that takes piggies and cares for them and loves them. And it's just something that she's really, really passionate about that I didn't even know existed until meeting Trish. So thank you for bringing that to my life. But   I love the analogy that can be taken from that, right? Because we do that with everything. We're like, okay, that was so cute. my gosh, sparkly, do it, yes. This is an instant yes. I want it, I need it, I want a goat, right? I want a highland cow, a mini highland cow, because why? Instagram shows me pictures of them next to a fireplace. I wanna cuddle with a mini highland cow. That sounds dangerous, right? Like I also want a coyote.   DAT Trish Ackerman (03:40) Yes, yes.   Yeah, it's great.   The Dental A Team (03:57) Like there's so many things that we want in life because they're cute and they're sparkly and they feel like they're gonna feel amazing. And then we get there and we're like, ⁓ shoot, I did not do the research. I did not realize this pig was gonna get so giant, right? So I love that. Thank you for letting me take that journey with you. And so if you do have piggy questions, Trish@TheDentalATeam.com. It's her direct line. You can make sure.   DAT Trish Ackerman (04:03) ⁓   Mm-hmm.   Thank you.   I'm your girl.   The Dental A Team (04:25) And it's going to be just fantastic. It's going to be so much fun. okay, on that note, practice owners, doctors, know, teams even, we all get into that space, right, of shiny object syndrome, or it just sounds like it's going to be amazing, or it looks so pretty. And we sometimes tend to miss some of the underlying pieces that we've got to know. And I think that's where consulting is super beneficial.   for practice owners. There are so many things that you don't know until you know. And a lot of those pieces are healthy patient base, right? What is a healthy patient base? How do I keep, maintain, create a healthy patient base? What the heck is billing? How do I even do that? What is insurance? Why do they tell me what I can and cannot do? These are literally real questions that we get from doctors and, or team.   Why does my team hate me? How do I make my team like me? Well, my team likes me, but they don't respect me. Culture is massive. And all these things are things that we don't always think about when we purchase a practice and we get into this like beautiful building or the, ugly building that we're going to make beautiful or whatever it is. And just like the piggies, it was so cute and such a good idea. And then all of a sudden it's this massive.   Mass, like how much do they weigh Trish? Like a full grown pig weighs what?   DAT Trish Ackerman (05:56) I mean, I don't have the hogs, but Miss Daisy, I mean, she's close to 90 pounds and Joey, he's about 110 pounds and they start out little.   The Dental A Team (06:01) 110.   Yeah, yeah, and people think like a St. Bernard is wild. Like no, these are pigs, right? Like it was so cute. They are really cute still. I'm not saying they're not still cute. I'm just saying they come with some baggage, you guys. So when we're looking at these practices and we're helping these practice owners, these are pieces that we have to dig for. We've got to be like, hey, like that's a truffle finder. Like that pig is going to tear up your backyard.   but we can safeguard it. There are things that can be put into place to make sure that your backyard is safe, right, or as safe as possible. Same thing with your practice and your consulting. And that's what we do. We are good. Trish is great at pigs. She is great at many things. Recare, reactivation, AR, billing, team, culture, leadership. I could literally list the millions of things that Trish is really, really fantastic at.   And I think sometimes she's like an octopus that can just like all these arms are just going in different directions and she's just so fantastic at it. And Trish, we've talked about a specific client before and this client is just super cool, super amazing, super fun and a go-getter, like quietly a go-getter, which I love. I love that it's like a sneaky go-getter because he's so quiet. ⁓   So we talked about them before, but something I wanted to kind of highlight and focus on today during our podcast is yes, they've done these amazing things and with your leadership and your guidance, they have implemented some really incredible tools that we have talked about in the past, ⁓ you know, for handoffs and exams, mentorship, like all these pieces and it's worked wonderfully and the doctor is doing fantastic, but something I don't think we highlighted in the last podcast on this.   on this topic and conversation is the work that you've done with the manager and the team and like how that has flowed and how the doctor's leadership in the last less than a year has really molded the culture in the practice that that practice has now become, it's thriving. Like it's a practice that is safeguarded. It's a practice that has the systems in place that the team is really excited to be there still.   and has the like and the respect. I want to hear those tools, because those are sometimes the tools that we miss in moments of get our operations manual done and do all these checklists. And I want to hear how you helped them do that. I know he did it, they did it. And that is something that we can truthfully say. They showed up. They did the work. But what were the...   They did, and how did they do that? Take me through all of those pieces. How did you help them do that? How did they do the work? How are they showing up that's different than practices we're not working with right now?   DAT Trish Ackerman (09:00) This practice, it's so special to me because of the legacy behind it. just to reiterate this, we've got our current doctor in there now. It was his dad's practice and it was also his grandpa's practice. so he had something that we knew, he had something that we knew we had to preserve and grow and just blossom more than anything that practice had ever seen before.   And this doctor, he's kind of like your, he's just like your perfect implementer. And I never, and that doesn't happen all the time. And it did with him. And he, this is a doctor that has a stellar OM, like a real OM. And she, they are great partners. And when we, you know, we kind of walked through all the KPIs initially, like let's look at everything.   The Dental A Team (09:35) Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (09:55) And then we started breaking it down, like where could we improve or where could we increase things or where can we be more efficient? And we'll start with just say the patient base, because this was a bottlenecked practice, which is it's got his pros and cons for sure. I mean, it's great because you're bottlenecked. The cons are you could possibly lose a lot of patients very quickly. But what we did is we would strategize together and I would map out the steps for him in like an ABC fashion.   The Dental A Team (10:06) Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (10:25) Here's A, go do that. Here's B, go do that and C. He would do just that with the support of the OM and team. The OM and the doctor together would roll out at team meetings and even sometimes just morning huddles like this is something we're implementing today and they would do it. And that is, you know, it's like to have, if you bring us on to help you, there has to be a trust there. I mean, we're, certainly not here to make   make you do something that is not gonna work. Sometimes something doesn't work, but we pivot quickly. But for the most part, we're here to help. And this doctor walked in with nothing but trust. And I admire everybody that comes on to us, because this is a big decision to get a coach and have somebody consult for your practice. But that is really how they made these things move, They did everything, everything, and almost exactly how I would roll it out to them.   The Dental A Team (11:17) Yeah.   Yeah, I agree. I watched it. I watched it. I, as you were speaking, picked up that trust word as well. And I think the, the trust that he has for himself to make good decisions flows into all of the other pieces. And, and I don't mean that he knows every decision is a good decision. He trusts that no matter what the decision that he makes, he's going to pour into   and it's going to work or it's not. And if it doesn't work, then he moves on to something different. He trusts that no matter what, at the end of the day, it's going to be okay. So that means that he trusts the people that he surrounds himself with. If he has chosen you, he trusts you. And I think that trust flows into, I think it makes us better consultants, right? Because we feel that trust, we know, and we're going to push you. We know the extent to which we can push you. And if that trust is not there, you're not going to get as much push. And I know there's a lot of   There's a lot of times that I hear I'm not seeing movement or I need more. Well, it's both ways. We're gonna gauge it by how you're showing up. We're gonna show up too. And this is someone who shows up and that trust then, it doesn't just flow into the type of consulting that he gets. It also flows into how his team shows up. And you said that his office manager I've met, wonderful human and is just,   wants the best for the why, the purpose of the practice, the why that they're there serves it. That then allows them the trust that they have in each other, in the decisions, in the practice, in their why, in their purpose flows to the team so that they can show up and say, hey, we're doing morning huddle today. It doesn't have to be this like, hey, in a couple of weeks, like we're prepping for this, hey guys, we're prepping, because now I'm coddling and the team is like, is it good? it, like why is this?   Why can't we just do it, right? When it's not like a, hey, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna try this out. It's gonna be amazing and let's do this. It's a like, ooh, like a gas and a break at the same time. It's like, ⁓ well, maybe though the team feels that. And they're like, I don't think I wanna do this then. I don't trust that you've put a lot of thought into this. I don't trust that this is a good idea. So I'm gonna rebel. And then, know, teams and practices and practice owners are like, why isn't this working?   I think you nailed it there with the trust. He trusts himself, he trusts you, he trusts his team, and he trusts his spouse. The trust is ever flowing. He trusted his father to gift him, maybe not gift him, but to build this legacy practice for him to take over one day. And I think that is massive. So then that trust flows into everything that he does. And I think you get to see that. And Trish, what are your...   What are some of the ways that you've seen the team really rally behind him?   DAT Trish Ackerman (14:24) They, okay, behind every number is a story and watching his numbers change. The story is that the team changed with him and they are, they're very transparent with their team. They're very, they're, very direct, but in a lead, but they, they both have very strong leadership. They're a firm and principal, flexible and procedure is what I love to use.   The Dental A Team (14:27) Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (14:50) So they would be firm in principle, like this is a new implementation that we're going to roll out today. They would be flexible in procedure with certain team members because, you know, change is always kind of wild. It can be. The flexible and procedure would be, okay, if you're not ready to implement today, let me set you up with some coaching, but immediately so that we can ensure that we get this implementation rolled out by next Monday.   So it wouldn't be something that could just never get implemented, they could, if they needed to take some heavy lifts a little slower, they would, but there was always a timeline behind it. Nothing ever just sat ever. And team meetings, they're really, really good about their team meetings. They have solid agendas. They go in there with an action plan and they leave with action items. And they're just, they're marching. They continuously march together and forward and upward, always.   They did, the doctor also did kind of early on, he did a really, really good analysis, a sincere analysis on right people, right seats. And there was some discoveries made there. And knowing what those discoveries are, that gave me something to also help coach him with. you have to have, the doctors cannot do this alone. They can't. Team meetings are imperative. They have them. And again,   The numbers tell a story. And how did I know right away that this team was behind him was the numbers. But how did he do it? Consistency, implementation, follow through. He didn't just say he was going to do something. He did it. He did it.   The Dental A Team (16:34) Yeah,   yeah, and he delegated, right? He delegated to his team the pieces where they could support too. think something that I noticed right off the bat was that he trusted you, he listened to you, and something you guided him on was the pieces that only he could do versus the pieces that other people could help him do. And so mentorship, mentoring an associate dentist to take some of the load off of him, to build the schedule, to make room for the new patients, to get the block scheduling in place.   DAT Trish Ackerman (16:52) Right, yeah.   The Dental A Team (17:02) that mentorship could only come from him. But the other pieces, the implementing the block schedule, creating the block schedule, training the team on the block schedule, he didn't have to do that. And he trusted and allowed the delegation process and he trusted his team to carry it through. And I think something Trish that you did well with him and that he did well with you was allowed for the results. Everything was results driven. So if you implement this, you should see this.   DAT Trish Ackerman (17:30) Yes.   The Dental A Team (17:31) Now we see and make   sure we see that. If we don't see that, like you said, the numbers don't lie, right? The numbers tell a story. If we're not seeing the result, the expected results, we look at why are we not seeing the expected results? So he trusted that that implementation by his team was going to get the results. And if it didn't, he trusted that you would guide on why that result didn't happen. Yeah. Yeah.   DAT Trish Ackerman (17:54) Yep, and how to approach the team maybe a different way to   get the implementation active.   The Dental A Team (18:00) Yeah, yep, totally, totally. so massive kudos Trish on keying into, massive kudos to this doctor and massive kudos to you to really keying in on the areas of growth rather than just saying this is what we do, right? We're not that kind of consulting company but I watch you really mold your consulting per client to what   they need and where they're at, like you meet them where they are at and you are able to really see things that they thrive in, things that they love, things they're really good at, and then areas where it's like, you're not super great at that and you probably don't like it, so like, do you need to keep doing it? Is this something you need to keep doing or is this something that maybe we can pass off to somebody else?   DAT Trish Ackerman (18:53) think we're all really good at that here. mean, it's, think we get, we do get to know our clients quickly, really quickly, as far as just how are they going to tick with us? And, and when, know, with, with this doctor, one of the funnest things that I did discover with him is, is I found out that he was competitive and that was something else that really moved the needle. And I was like, ⁓ okay. And I ran with that. And   knowing that he was competitive and then started having them bring their presented treatment. How much dentistry did they present yesterday? And I mean, that just took off. So between him and his associate every day, they were in there and their huddle showing what did you present yesterday and what was accepted. And it just started kind of creeping up slowly but surely because the because the owner doctor, he's like he wanted to win. He wanted to have more to show. And that was that was actually a lot of fun.   The Dental A Team (19:44) Yeah.   Yeah, I do. I do love that. I remember you doing that with them and it was fun and you could see just like a spark. Like I wanted it. Like it was awesome. And I think to highlight that one of the reasons that you keyed in on that and that you made that a priority was that there was a sense of fear of diagnosing, of being an overdiagnoser. And so they knew there was stuff left on the table. There was a fear and there was a holding back and you challenged them.   to diagnose just one more, to diagnose one more thing and overcome that fear. And oftentimes we have to step into what that fear is and just do just a smidgen, like just a little bit, just a little bit and get over that fear. And that was something that you keyed in on. it wasn't, a lot of team members tend to listen to these too. And they tend to think the wrong of consulting, that we're looking to.   make things up or find things that aren't there and that was not the case with them. It was really just that fear of being an overdiagnoser, but really stepping into who they were as providers, as dentists, and their why to make people healthy again. So it's just super cool to watch. So, Josh, if you had to pick two things, two things, actionable items that the listeners today could attempt to implement themselves based on your work with this doctor, what would those two things be?   DAT Trish Ackerman (21:14) Those two things, let's see, the first one would be, what is your case acceptance and how are you presenting? And I say that because I watch and hear doctors talk patients out of treatment all day every day. So that's first thing, what's your case acceptance and how are you presenting? That's number one. And then number two, what is your, you know, I love this, what does your re-care department look like? What does your re-care schedule look like for the next two weeks?   The Dental A Team (21:26) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Agreed.   DAT Trish Ackerman (21:41) and what did it look like the last two weeks and evaluate that. And if you find that there is more than 10 % of lost time in that two weeks, you might as well plan for that to possibly happen coming up two weeks. And so what are the systems in place? What are the protocols in place? Because you really want to lock down that Recare Department to ensure that you have your patient base and that you've got your exam opportunities.   The Dental A Team (22:05) I love it. Thank you.   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:06) And   that your overhead is not crazy because it can get really wild if we don't have if we've got a hygiene provider and she does not have a 90 scheduled or to capacity. We're going to start seeing some numbers look weird.   The Dental A Team (22:19) totally agree, love that. Awesome, thank you Trish, I appreciate it. think watching you consult is super fun, watching all of you ladies consult is super fun. My job is really, really cool and I just, I love it. thought, it's kinda like when you're in the office, you're like, can't imagine anything else and then now I'm like, I can't imagine sitting in an office, you know, and I was like, I'm never gonna be off the road and then I was like, actually I really like this, I really love this space so thank you for letting me be a part of it, thank you for letting me jump in on.   on calls with you sometimes and really just get to see you thrive. Thank you, thank you. Awesome, you guys, if you are a Dental A Team client, we love you, we value, we appreciate you. If you have any questions on this specific situation, you guys, we all communicate a ton. So ask your consultant if you want some advice, you're like, Trish's Recare sounds amazing, like communicate with your consultant. If you're not a Dental A Team client yet,   DAT Trish Ackerman (22:49) love that one.   The Dental A Team (23:14) We love you, we appreciate you, we value you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If you have questions, we are here for you. And if you want to know more about Piggies, Trish is here for you. And we love talking our hobbies and that is a massive hobby for her. So get to know us like we get to know you. We love and adore all of you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Drop us a five star review. We cannot wait to hear from you. And if you guys are in a space where you just, you're not sure.   what to do. You're like, I don't know what my A, B, and C is Trish. I don't know what my next step is. I know I can see this thing that I want. I don't know how to get there. We are really good at that. We are really, really good at building those steps and the path to get to your ultimate dreams. You guys, TheDentalATeam.com sign up for a free consultation and it doesn't, it's no obligation you guys. doesn't mean anything. It just means,   Help me, I see this piece, what am I missing? We are here to provide that piece even if you're saying I'm not ready for consulting, we will still give you those tools. So please reach out, we are here for you. We want to do the most that we possibly can for the dental world and our community that we serve. So Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and we cannot wait to meet you.  

The Overtired trio reunites for the first time in ages, diving into a whirlwind of health updates, hilarious anecdotes, and the latest tech obsessions. Christina shares a dramatic spinal saga while Brett and Jeff discuss everything from winning reddit contests to creating a universal markdown processor. Tune in for updates on Mark 3, the magical world of Scrivener, and why Brett’s back on Bing. Don’t miss the banter or the tech tips, and as always, get ready to laugh, learn, and maybe feel a little overtired yourself. Sponsor Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all eCommerce in the US, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark, to brands just getting started. Get started today at shopify.com/overtired. Chapters 00:00 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast 01:09 Christina’s Health Journey 10:53 Brett’s Insurance Woes 15:38 Jeff’s Mental Health Update 24:07 Sponsor Spot: Shopify 24:18 Sponsor: Shopify 26:23 Jeff Tweedy 27:43 Jeff’s Concert Marathon 32:16 Christina Wins Big 36:58 Monitor Setup Challenges 37:13 Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles 38:33 Review Plans and Honest Assessments 38:59 Current Display Setup 41:30 Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences 42:51 MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons 50:58 Markdown Processor: Apex 01:07:58 Scrivener and Writing Tools 01:11:55 Helium Browser and Privacy Features 01:13:56 Bing Delisting Incident Show Links Danny Brown's 10 in the New York Times (gift link) Indigo Stack Scrivener Helium Bangs Apex Apex Syntax Join the Marked 3 Beta LG 32 Inch UltraFine™evo 6K Nano IPS Black Monitor with Thunderbolt™ 5 Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Brett + 2 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast Jeff: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. This is the Overtired podcast. The three of us are all together for the first time since the Carter administration. Um, it is great to see you both here. I am Jeff Severance Gunzel if I didn’t say that already. Um, and I’m here with Christina Warren and I’m here with Brett Terpstra and hello to both of you. Brett: Hi. Jeff: Great to see you both. Brett: Yeah, it’s good to see you too. I feel like I was really deadpan in the pre-show. I’ll try to liven it up for you. I was a horrible audience. You were cracking jokes and I was just Jeff: that’s true. Christina, before you came on, man, I was hot. I was on fire and Brett was, all Brett was doing was chewing and dropping Popsicle parts. Brett: Yep. I ate, I ate part of a coconut outshine Popsicle off of a concrete floor, but Jeff: It is true, and I didn’t even see him check it [00:01:00] for cat hair, Brett: I did though. Jeff: but I believe he did because he’s a, he’s a very Brett: I just vacuumed in Jeff: He’s a very good American Brett: All right. Christina’s Health Journey Brett: Well, um, I, Christina has a lot of health stuff to share and I wanna save time for that. So let’s kick off the mental health corner. Um, let’s let Christina go first, because if it takes the whole show, it takes the whole show. Go for it. Christina: Uh, I, I will not take this hold show, but thank you. Yeah. So, um, my mental health is okay-ish. Um, I would say the okay-ish part is, is because of things that are happening with my physical health and then some of the medications that I’ve had to be on, um, uh, to deal with it. Uh, prednisone. Fucking sucks, man. Never nev n never take it if you can avoid it. Um, but why Christina, why are you on prednisone or why were you on prednisone for five days? Um, uh, and I’m not anymore to be clear, but that certainly did not help my mental health. Um, at the beginning of November, I woke up and I thought that I’d [00:02:00] slept on my shoulder wrong. And, um, uh, and, and just some, some background. I, I don’t know if this is pertinent to how my injury took place or not, but, but it, I’m sure that it didn’t help. Um, I have scoliosis and in the top and the bottom of my spine, so I have it at the top of my, like, neck area and my lower back. And so my back is like a crooked s um, this will be relevant in a, in a second, but, but I, I thought that I had slept on my back bunny, and I was like, okay, well, all right, it hurts a lot, but fine. Um, and then it, a, a couple of days passed and it didn’t get any better, and then like a week passed and I was at the point where I was like, I almost feel like I need to go to the. Emergency room, I’m in pain. That is that significant. Um, and, you know, didn’t get any better. So I took some of grant’s, Gabapentin, and I took, um, some, some, uh, a few other things and I was able to get in with like a, a, a sports and spine guy. Um, and um, [00:03:00] he looked at me and he was like, yeah, I think that you have like a, a, a bolting disc, also known as a herniated disc. Go to physical therapy. See me later. We’ll, we’ll deal with it. Um. Basically like my whole left side was, was, was really sore and, and I had a lot of pain and then I had numbness in my, my fingers and um, and, and that was a problem the next day, which was actually my birthday. The numbness had at this point spread to my right side and also my lower extremities. And so at this point I called the doctor and he was like, yeah, you should go to the er. And so I went to the ER and, and they weren’t able to do anything for me other than give me, you know, like, um, you know, I was hoping they might give me like, some sort of steroid injection or something. They wouldn’t do anything other than, um, basically, um, they gave me like another type of maybe, maybe pain pill or whatever. Um, but that allowed the doctor to go ahead and. Write, uh, write up an MRI took forever for me to get an MRI, I actually had to get it in Atlanta. [00:04:00] Fun fact, uh, sometimes it is cheaper to just pay and not go through insurance and get an MR MRI and, um, a, um, uh, an x-ray, um, I was able to do it for $450 Jeff: Whoa. Really? Christina: Yeah, $400 for the MR mri. $50 for the x-ray. Jeff: Wow. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: how I, they, I had an MRI, they charged me like $1,200 and then they failed to bill insurance ’cause I was between insurance. Christina: Yes. Yeah. So what happened was, and and honestly that was gonna be the situation that I was in, not between insurance stuff, but they weren’t even gonna bill insurance. And insurance only approved certain facilities and to get into those facilities is almost impossible. Um, and so, no, there are a lot of like get an MR, I now get a, you know, mammogram, get ghetto, whatever places. And because America’s healthcare system is a HealthScape, you can bypass insurance and they will charge you way less than whatever they bill insurance for. So I, I don’t know if it’s part of the country, you know, like Seattle I think might [00:05:00] probably would’ve been more expensive. But yeah, I was able to find this place like a mile from like, not even a mile from where my parents lived, um, that did the x-rays and the MRI for $450 total. Brett: I, I hate, I hate that. That’s true, but Christina: Me too. Me too. No, no. It pisses me off. Honestly, it makes me angry because like, I’m glad that I was able to do that and get it, you know, uh, uh, expedited. Then I go into the spine, um, guy earlier this week and he looks at it and he’s like, yep, you’ve got a massive bulging disc on, on C seven, which is the, the part of your lower cervical or cervical spine, which is your neck. Um, and it’s where it connects to your ver bray. It’s like, you know, there are a few things you can do. You can do, you know, injections, you can do surgery. He is like, I’m gonna recommend you to a neurosurgeon. And I go to the neurosurgeon yesterday and he was showing me or not, uh, yeah, yesterday he was showing me the, the, the, the scans and, and showing like you up close and it’s, yeah, it’s pretty massive. Like where, where, where the disc is like it is. You could see it just from one view, like, just from like [00:06:00] looking at it like, kind of like outside, like you could actually like see like it was visible, but then when you zoomed in it’s like, oh shit, this, this thing is like massive and it’s pressing on these nerves that then go into my, my hands and other areas. But it’s pressing on both sides. It’s primarily on my left side, but it’s pressing on on my right side too, which is not good. So, um, he basically was like, okay. He was like, you know, this could go away. He was like, the pain isn’t really what I’m wanting to, to treat here. It’s, it’s the, the weakness because my, my left arm is incredibly weak. Like when they do like the, the test where like they, they push back on you to see like, okay, like how, how much can you, what, like, I am, I’m almost immediately like, I can’t hold anything back. Right? Like I’m, I’m, I’m like a toddler in terms of my strength. So, and, and then I’m freaked out because I don’t have a lot of feeling in my hands and, and that’s terrifying. Um, I’m also. Jeff: so terrifying, Christina: I’m, I’m also like in extreme pain because of, of, of where this sits. Like I can’t sleep well. Like [00:07:00] the whole thing sucks. Like the MRI, which was was like the most painful, like 25 minutes, like of my existence. ’cause I was laying flat on my back. I’m not allowed to move and I’m just like, I’m in just incredible pain with that part of, of, of, of my, my side. Like, it, it was. It was terrible. Um, but, uh, but he was like, yeah. Um, these are the sorts of surgical options we have. Um, he’s gonna, um, do basically what what he wants to do is basically do a thing where he would put in a, um, an artificial or, or synthetic disc. So they’re gonna remove the disc, put in a synthetic one. They’ll go in through the, the front of my throat to access the, my, my, my, my spine. Um, put that there and, um, you know, I’ll, I’ll be overnight in the hospital. Um, and then it’ll be a few weeks of recovery and the, the, the pain should go away immediately. Um, but it, it could be up to two years before I get full, you know, feeling back in my arm. So anyway, Jeff: years, Jesus. And Christina: I mean, and hopefully less than that, but, but it could be [00:08:00] up to that. Jeff: there’s no part of this at this point. That’s a mystery to you, right? Christina: The mystery is, I don’t know how this happened. Jeff: You don’t know how it happened, right? Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Brett: So tell, tell us about the ghastly surgery. The, the throat thing really threw me like, I can’t imagine that Christina: yeah, yeah. So, well, ’cause the thing is, is that usually if what they just do, like spinal fusion, they’ll go in at the back of your neck, um, and then they’ll remove the, the, um, the, the, the, the disc. And then they’ll fuse your, your, your two bones together. Basically. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll fuse this part of the vertebrae, but because they’re going to be replacing the, the disc, they need more room. So that’s why they have to go in through the, through, through basically your throat so that they can have more room to work. Jeff: Good lord. No thank you. Brett: Ugh. Wow. Jeff: Okay. Brett: I am really sorry that is happening. That is, that is, that dwarfs my health concerns. That is just constant pain [00:09:00] and, and it would be really scary. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not great. It’s not great, but I’m, I’m, I’m doing what I can and, uh, like I have, you know, a small amount of, of Oxycodine and I have like a, a, a, you know, some other pain medication and I’m taking the gabapentin and like, that’s helpful. The bad part is like your body, like every 12, 15 hours, like whatever, like the, the, the cycle is like, you feel it leave your system and like if you’re asleep, you wake up, right? Like, it’s one of those things, like, you immediately feel it, like when it leaves your system. And I’ve never had to do anything for pain management before. And they have me on a very, they have me like on the smallest amount of like, oxycodone you can be on. Um, and I’m using it sparingly because I don’t wanna, you know, be reliant on, on it or whatever. But it, it, but it is one of those things where I’m like, yeah, like sometimes you need fucking opiates because, you know, the pain is like so constant. And the thing is like, what sucks is that it’s not always the same type of pain. Like sometimes it’s throbbing, sometimes it’s sharp, sometimes it’s like whatever. It sucks. But the hardest thing [00:10:00] is like, and. This does impact my mental health. Like it’s hard to sleep. Like, and I’m a side sleeper. I’m a side sleeper, and I’m gonna have to become a back sleeper. So, you know. Yeah. It’s just, it’s, it’s not great. It’s not great, but, you know, that, that, that, that, that’s me. The, the good news is, and I’m very, very gratified, like I have a good surgeon. Um, I’m gonna be able to get in to get this done relatively quickly. He had an appointment for next week. I don’t think that insurance would’ve even been able to approve things fast enough for, for, for that regard. And I have, um, commitments that I can’t make then. And I, and that would also mean that I wouldn’t be able to go visit my family for Christmas. So hopefully I’ll do it right after Christmas. I’m just gonna wait, you know, for, for insurance to, to do its thing, knock on wood, and then schedule, um, from there. But yeah, Jeff: Woof. Christina: so that’s me. Um, uh, who wants to go next? Jeff or, uh, Jeff or Brett? Jeff: It’s like, that’s me. Hot potato throwing it. Brett: I’ll, I’ll go. Brett’s Insurance Woes Brett: I can continue on the insurance topic. Um, I was, for a few months [00:11:00] after getting laid off, I was on Minsu, which is Minnesota’s Medicaid, um, v version of Medicaid. And so basically I paid nothing and I had better insurance than I usually have with, uh, you know, a full deductible and premiums and everything. And it was fantastic. I was getting all the care I needed for all of the health stuff I’m going through. Um, I, they, a, a new doctor I found, ordered the 15 tests and I passed out ’cause it was so much blood and. And it, I was getting, but I was getting all these tests run. I was getting results, we were discovering things. And then my unemployment checks, the income from unemployment went like $300 over the cap for Medicaid. So [00:12:00] all of a sudden, overnight I was cut from Medicaid and I had to do an early sign up, and now I’m on courts and it sucks bad. Like they’re not covering my meds. Last month cost me $600. I was also paying. In addition to that, a $300 premium plus every doctor’s visit is 50 bucks out of pocket. So this will hopefully only last until January, and then it’ll flip over and I will be able to demonstrate basically no income, um, until like Mark makes enough money that it gets reported. Um, and even, uh, until then, like I literally am making under the, the poverty limit. So, um, I hope to be back on Medicaid shortly. I have one more month. I’ll have to pay my $600 to refill. I [00:13:00] cashed out my 401k. Um, like things were, everything was up high enough that I had made, I. I had made tens of thousands of dollars just on the investments and the 401k, but I also have a lot of concerns about the market volatility around Nvidia and the AI bubble in general. Um, so taking my money out of the market just felt okay to me. I paid the 10%, uh, penalty Jeff: Mm-hmm. Brett: and ultimately I, I came out with enough cash that I can invest on my own and be able to cover the next six months. Uh, if I don’t have any other income, which I hope to, I hope to not spend my nest egg. Um, but I did, I did a lot of thinking and calculating and I think I made the right choices. But anyway, [00:14:00] that will help if I have to pay for medical stuff that will help. Um. And then I’ve had insomnia, bad on and off. Right now I’m coming off of two days of good sleep. You’re catching me on a good day. Um, but Jeff: Still wouldn’t laugh at my jokes. Brett: before that it was, well, that’s the thing is like before that, it was four nights where I slept two to four hours per night, and by the end of it, I could barely walk. And so two nights of sleep after a stint like that, like, I’m just super, I’m deadpan, I’m dazed. Um, I could lay down and fall asleep at any time. Um, I, so, so keep me awake. Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s me. Mental health is good. Like I’m in pretty high spirits considering all this, like financial stuff and everything. Like my mood has been pretty stable. I’ve been getting a lot of coding done. I’ll tell you about projects in [00:15:00] a minute, but, um, but that’s, that’s me. I’m done. Jeff: Awesome. I’m enjoying watching your cat roll around, but clearly cannot decide to lay down at this point. Brett: No, nobody is very persnickety. Jeff: I literally have to put my. Well, you say put a cat down like you used to. When you put a kid down for a nap, you say you wanna put ’em down. Right? That’s where it’s coming from. I now have a chair next to my desk, ’cause I have one cat that walks around Yowling at about 11:00 AM while I’m working. And I have to like, put ’em down for a nap. It’s pathetic. It’s pathetic that I do that. Let’s just be clear. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: soulmate though. Jeff’s Mental Health Update Jeff: Um, I’m doing good. I’m, I’m, I’ve been feeling kind of light lately in a nice way. I’ve had ups and downs, but even with the ups and downs, there’s like a, except for one day last week was, there’s just been feeling kind of good in general, which is remarkable in a way. ’cause it’s just like stressful time. There’s some stressful business stuff, like, [00:16:00] a lot of stuff like that. But I’m feeling good and, and just like, uh, yeah, just light. I don’t know, it’s weird. Like, I’ve just been noticing that I feel kind of light and, uh. And not, not manic, not high light. Brett: Yeah. No, that’s Jeff: uh, and that’s, that’s lovely. So yeah. And so I’m doing good. I’m doing good. I fucking, it’s cold. Which sucks ’cause it just means for everybody that’s heard about my workshop over the years, that I can’t really go out there and have it be pleasant Brett: It’s, it’s been Minnesota thus far. Has had, we’ve had like one, one Sub-Zero day. Jeff: whatever. It’s fucking cold. Christina: Yeah. What one? Brett? Brett. It’s December 6th as we’re recording this one Sub-Zero day. That’s insane. Brett: Is it Jeff: Granted, granted I’ve been dressing warm, so I’m ready to go out the door for ice related things. Meaning, meaning government, ice, Brett: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Jeff: So I like wear my long underwear during [00:17:00] the day. ’cause actually like recently. So at my son’s school, which is like six blocks from here, um, has a lot of Somali immigrants in it. And, and uh, and there was a, at one point there was ice activity in the other direction, um, uh, uh, near me. And so neighbors put out a call here around so that at dismissal time people would pair up at all the intersections surrounding the school. And, um, and like a quick signal group popped up, whatever. It was so amazing because like we all just popped out there. And by the time I got out, uh, everyone was already like, posted up and I was like, I’m a, in these situations, I am a wanderer. You want me roaming? I don’t want to pair up with somebody I don’t like, I just, I grabbed a camera with a Zoom on it and like, I was like, I’m in roam. Um, it’s what I was as an activist, what I was as a reporter, like it’s just my nature. Um, but like. Everybody was out and like, and they were just like, they were ready man. And then we got like the all clear and you could just see people in the [00:18:00] neighborhood just like standing down and going home. But because of the true threat and the ongoing arrests here, now that the Minneapolis stuff has started, like I do, I was like wearing long underwear just, and I have a little bag by the door ready to like pop out if something comes up and I can be helpful. Um, and uh, and I guess what I’m saying is I should use that to go into the garage as well if I’m already prepared. Brett: Right. Jeff: But here’s, okay, so here’s a mental health thing actually. So I, one of the, I’ve gone through a few years of just sort of a little bit of paralysis around being able to just, I don’t know what, like do anything that is kind of project related that takes some thinking, whatever it is, like I’m talking about around the house or things that have kind of broken over the years, whatever. So I’ve had this snowblower and it’s a really good snowblower. It’s got headlights. And, uh, and I used to love snow blowing the entire block. Like it just made me feel good, made me feel useful. Um, and sorry I cough. I left it outside for a [00:19:00] year for a, like a winter and a spring and water got into the gas tank. It rusted out in there. I knew I couldn’t start it or I’d ruin the whole damn engine. So I left it for two years and I felt bad about myself. But this year, just like probably a month before the first big snowfall, I fucking replaced a gas tank and a carburetor on a machine. And I have never done anything like that in my life. And so then we got the snowfall and I, and I snow blowed this whole block Brett: Nice. Jeff: great. ’cause now they all owe me. Brett: I, uh, I have a, uh, so I have a little electric powered, uh, snowblower that can handle like two inches of snow. Um, and, and on big snowfalls, if you get out there every hour and keep up with it, it, it works. But, but I, my back right now, I can’t stand for, I can’t stand still for 10 minutes and I can’t move for more than like five minutes. And so I’m, I’m very disabled and El has good days and bad days, uh, thus [00:20:00] far. L’s been out there with a shovel, um, really being the hero. But we have a next door neighbor with a big gas powered snowblower. And so we went over, brought them gifts, and, um, asked if they would take care of our driveway on days we couldn’t, uh, for like, you know, we’d pay ’em 25 bucks to do the driveway. And, uh, and they were, he was still reluctant to accept money. Um. But, but we both agreed it was better to like make it a, a transaction. Jeff: Oh my God. You don’t want to get into weird Minnesota neighbor relational. Brett: right. You don’t want the you owe me thing. Um, so, so we have that set up. But in the process we made really good friends with our neighbor. Like we sat down in their living room for I think 45 minutes and just like talked about health and politics and it was, it was really fun. They’re, they’re retired. They’re in their [00:21:00] seventies and like act, he always looks super grumpy. I always thought he was a mean old man. He’s actually, he laughs more easily than most people I’ve ever met. Um, he’s actually, when people say, oh, he is actually a teddy bear, this guy really is, he’s just jovial. Uh, he just has resting angry old man face. Jeff: Or like my, I have public mis throat face, like when I’m out and about, especially when I’m shopping, I know that my face is, I’m gonna fucking kill you if you look me in the eye Brett: I used Jeff: is not my general disposition. Brett: people used to tell me that about myself, but I feel like I, I carry myself differently these days than I did when I was younger. Jeff: You know what I learned? Do you, have you both watched Veep, Christina: Yes, Jeff: you know, Richard sp split, right? Um, and, and he always kind of has this sweet like half smile and he is kind of looking up and I, I figured out at one point I was in an airport, which is where my kill everybody face especially comes up. Just to be clear. TSA, it’s just a feeling inside. I [00:22:00] have no desire to act to this out. I realized that if I make the Richard Plet face, which I can try to make for you now, which is something like if I just make the Richard Plet face, my whole disposition Brett: yeah. Yeah. Jeff: uh, and I even feel a little better. And so I just wanna recommend that to people. Look up Richard Spt, look at his face. Christina: Hey, future President Bridges split. Jeff: future President Richard Splat, also excellent in the Detroiters. Um, that’s all, uh, that’s all I wanted to say about that. Brett: I have found that like when I’m texting with someone, if I start to get frustrated, you know, you know that point where you’re still adding smiley emoticons even though you’re actually not, you’re actually getting pissed off, but you don’t wanna sound super bitchy about it, so you’re adding smile. I have found that when I add a smiley emoji in those circumstances, if I actually smile before I send it, it like my [00:23:00] mood will adjust to match, to match the tone I’m trying to convey, and it lessens my frustration with the other person. Jeff: a little joy wrist rocket. Christina: Yeah. Hey, I mean, no, but hey, but, but that, that, that, that, that’s interesting. I mean, they’re, they, they’ve done studies that like show that, right? That like show like, you know, I mean, like, some of this is all like bullshit to a certain extent, but there is something to be said for like, you know, like the power of like positive thinking and like, you know, if you go into things with like, different types of attitudes or even like, even if you like, go into job interviews or other situations, like you act confident or you smile, or you act happy or whatever. Even if you’re not like it, the, the, the, the euphoria, you know, that those sorts of uh, um, endorphin reactions or whatever can be real. So that’s interesting. Brett: Yeah, I found, I found going into job interviews with my usual sarcastic and bitter, um, kind of mindset, Jeff: I already hate this job. Brett: it doesn’t play well. It doesn’t play well. So what are your weaknesses? Fuck off. Um,[00:24:00] Christina: right. Well, well, well, I hate people. Jeff: Yeah. Dealing with motherfuckers like you, that’s one weakness. Sponsor Spot: Shopify Brett: let’s, uh, let’s do a sponsor spot and then I want to hear about Christina winning a contest. Christina: yes. Jeff: very Brett: wanna, you wanna take it away? Sponsor: Shopify Jeff: I will, um, our sponsor this week is Shopify. Um, have you ever, have you just been dreaming of owning your own business? Is that why you can’t sleep? In addition to having something to sell, you need a website. And I’ll tell you what, that’s been true for a long time. You need a payment system, you need a logo, you need a way to advertise new customers. It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but that is where today’s sponsor, Shopify comes in. shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gym Shark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use [00:25:00] templates. 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That was Jeff: Yeah. Cha-ching Brett: they got the chorus, they got the Overtired Christina: You did. You got the Overtired Jeff: They didn’t think to ask for it, but that’s our brand. Christina: shopify.com/ Overtired. Jeff Tweedy Jeff: What was, uh, I was watching a Stephen Colbert interview with Jeff Tweedy, who just put out a triple album and, uh, it was a very thoughtful, sweet interview. And then Stephen Colbert said, you know, you’re not supposed to do this. And Jeff Tweety said, it’s all part of my career long effort to leave the public wanting less. Christina: Ha, Jeff: That was a great bit. Christina: that’s a fantastic bit. A side note, there are a couple of really good NPR, um, uh, tiny desks that have come out in the last couple of month, uh, couple of weeks. Um, uh, one is shockingly, I, I’ll, I’ll just be a a, a fucking boomer about it. The Googo dolls. Theirs was [00:27:00] great. It’s fantastic. They did a great job. It already has like millions of views, like it wrecked up like over a million views, I think like in like, like less than 24 hours. They did a great job, but, uh, but Brandy Carlisle, uh, did one, um, the other day and hers is really, really good too. So, um, so yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Anyway, you said, you saying Jeff pd maybe, I don’t know how I got from Wilco to like, you know, there, Jeff: Yeah. Well, they’ve done some good, he’s done his own good Christina: he has, he has done his own. Good, good. That’s honestly, that’s probably what I was thinking of, but Jeff: It’s my favorite Jeff besides me because Bezos, he’s not in the, he’s not in the game. Christina: No. No, he’s not. No. Um, he, he’s, he’s not on the Christmas card list at all. Jeff: Oh man. Jeff’s Concert Marathon Jeff: Can I just tell you guys that I did something, um, I did something crazy a couple weeks ago and I went to three shows in one week, like I was 20 fucking two, Brett: Good grief. Jeff: and. It was a blast. So, okay, so the background of this is my oldest son [00:28:00] loves hip hop, and when we drive him to college and back, or when I do, it’s often just me. Um, he, he goes deep and he, it’s a lot of like, kind of indie hip hop and a lot. It’s just an interesting, he listens to interesting shit, but he will go deep and he’ll just like, give me a tour through someone’s discography or through all their features somewhere, whatever it is. And like, it’s the kind of input that I love, which is just like, I don’t, even if it’s not my genre, like if you’re passionate and you can just weave me through the interrelationship and the history and whatever it is I’m in. So as a result of that, made me a huge fan of Danny Brown and made me a huge fan of the sky, Billy Woods. And so what happened was I went to a hip hop show at the seventh Street entry, uh, which is attached to First Avenue. It’s a little club, very small, lovely little place, the only place my band could sell out. Um, and I watched a hip hop show there on a Monday night, Tuesday night. I went to the Uptown Theater, which Brett is now a actually an operating [00:29:00] theater for shows. Uh, and I, and I saw Danny Brown, but I also saw two hyper pop bands, a genre I was not previously aware of, including one, which was amazing, called Fem Tenal. And I was in line to get into that show behind furries, behind trans Kids. Like it was this, I was the weirdest, like I did not belong. Underscores played, and, and this will mean something to somebody out there, but not, didn’t mean anything to me until that night. And, uh. I felt like such, there were times, not during Danny Brown, Danny Brown’s my age all good. But like there were times where I was in the crowd ’cause I’m tall. Anybody that doesn’t know I’m very tall and I’m wearing like a not very comfortable or safe guy seeming outfit, a black hoodie, a black stocking cap. Like I basically looked like I’m possibly a shooter and, and I’m like standing among all these young people loving it, but feeling a little like, should I go to the back? Even like I was leaving that show [00:30:00] and the only people my age were people’s parents that were waiting to pick them up on the way out. So anyway, that was night two. Danny Brown was awesome. And then two nights later I went to see, this is way more my speed, a band called the Dazzling Kilman who were a band that. Came out in the nineties, St. Louis and a noisy Matthew Rock. Wikipedia claims they invented math rock. It’s a really stupid claim, uh, but it’s a lovely, interesting band and it’s a friend of mine named Nick Sakes, who’s who fronted that band and was in all these great bands back when I was in bands called Colos Mite and Sick Bay, and all this is great shit. So they played a reunion show. In this tiny punk rock club here called Cloudland, just a lovely little punk rock club. And, um, and, and that was like rounded out my week. So like, I was definitely, uh, a tourist the early part of the week, mostly at the Danny Brown Show. But then I like got to come home to my noisy punk rock [00:31:00] on, uh, on Thursday night. And I, I fucking did three shows and it hurt so bad. Like even by the first of three bands on the second night. I was like, I don’t think I can make it. And I do. I already pregame shows with ibuprofen. Just to be really clear, I microdose glucose tabs at shows like, like I am, I am a full on old man doing these things. But, um, I did get some cred with my kids for being at a hyper pop show all by myself. And, Christina: Hell yeah. A a Jeff: friends seemed impressed. Christina: no, as a as, as as they should be. I’m impressed. And like, and I, I, I typically like, I definitely go to like more of like, I go, I go to shows more frequently and, and I’m, I’m even like, I’m, I’m gonna be real with you. I’m like, yeah, three in one week. Jeff: That’s a lot. Christina: That’s a lot. That’s a lot. Jeff: man. Did I feel good when I walked home from that last show though? I was like, I fucking did it. I did not believe I wasn’t gonna bail on at least two of those shows, if not all three. Anyway, just wanted to say Brett: I [00:32:00] do like one show a year, but Jeff: that’s how I’ve been for years this year. I think I’ve seen eight shows. Brett: damn. Jeff: Yeah, it’s Brett: Alright, so you’ve been teasing us about this, this contest you won. Jeff: Yeah, please, Christina. Sorry to push that off. Christina: No, no, no, no. That’s, that’s completely okay. That, that, that, that’s great. Uh, no. Christina Wins Big Christina: So, um, I won two six K monitors. Brett: Damn. Jeff: is that what those boxes are behind you? Christina: Yeah, yeah. This is what the boxes are behind me, so I haven’t been able to get them up because this happened. I got them literally right in the midst of all this stuff with my back. Um, but I do have an Ergotron poll now that is here, and, and Grant has said that he will, will get them up. But yeah, so I won 2 32 inch six K monitors from a Reddit contest. Brett: How, how, how, Jeff: How does this happen? How do I find a Reddit contest? Christina: Yeah. So I got lucky. So I have, I, I have a clearly, well, well, um, there was a little, there was a little bit of like, other step to it than that, but like, uh, so how it worked was basically, um, LG is basically just put out [00:33:00] two, they put out a new 32 inch six K monitor. I’ll have it linked in, in, in the show notes. Um, so we’ve talked about this on this podcast before, but like one of my big, like. Pet peeve, like things that I can’t get past. It’s like I need like a retina screen. Like I need like the, the perfect pixel doubling thing for that the Mac Os deals with, because I’ve used a 5K screen, either through an iMac or um, an lg, um, ultra fine or, um, a, uh, studio display. For like 11 years. And, and I, and I’ve been using retina displays on laptops even longer than that. And so if I use like a regular 4K display, like it just, it, it doesn’t work for me. Um, you can use apps like, um, like better control and other things to kind of emulate, like what would be like if you doubled the resolution, then it, it down, you know, um, of samples that, so that. It looks better than, than if it’s just like the, the, the 4K stuff where in the, the user interface things are too big and whatnot. And to be clear, this is a Macco West problem. If [00:34:00] you are using Windows or Linux or any other operating system that does fractional scaling, um, correctly, then this is not a problem. But Macco West does not do fractional scaling direct, uh, correctly. Um, weirdly iOS can, like, they can do three X resolution and other things. Um, but, but, but Macs does not. And that’s weird because some of the native resolutions on some of the MacBook errors are not even perfectly pixeled doubled, meaning Apple is already having to do a certain amount of like resolution changes to, to fit into their own, created by their, their own hubris, like way of insisting on, on only having like, like two x pixel doubling 18 years ago, we could have had independent, uh, resolutions, uh, um, for, for UI elements and, and, and window bars. But anyway, I, I’m, I’m digressing anyway. I was looking at trying to get either a second, uh, studio display, which I don’t wanna do because Apple’s reportedly going to be putting out a new one. Um, and they’re expensive or getting, um, there are now a number of different six K [00:35:00] displays that are not $6,000 that are on the market. So, um, uh, uh, Asus has one, um, there is one from like a, a Chinese company called like, or Q Con that, um, looks like a, a complete copy of this, of the pro display XDR. It has a different panel, but it’s, it’s six K and they, they’ve copied the whole design and it’s aluminum and it’s glossy and it looks great, but I’d have to like get it from like. A weird distributor, and if I have any issues with it, I don’t really wanna have to send it back to China and whatnot. And then LG has one that they just put out. And so I’ve been researching these on, on Mac rumors and on some other forums. And, um, I, uh, I, somebody in one of the Mac Roomers forums like posted that there was like a contest that LG was running in a few different subreddits where they were like, tell us why you should get one of, like, we’re gonna be giving away like either one or two monitors, and I guess they did this in a few subreddits. Tell us why this would be good for your workflow. And, um, I guess I, I guess I’m one of the people who kind of read the [00:36:00] assignment because it, okay, I’ll just be honest with this, with, with you guys on this podcast, uh, because I, I don’t think anyone from LG will hear this and my answers were accurate anyway. But anyway, this was not the sort of contest where it was like we will randomly select a winner. This was the moderators and lg, were going to read the responses and choose the winner. Jeff: Got it. Christina: So if you spend a little bit of time and thoughtfully write out a response, maybe you stand a better chance of winning the contest. Jeff: yeah, yeah. Put the work in like it was 2002. Christina: Right. Anyway, I still was shocked when I like woke up like on like Halloween and they were like, congratulations, you’ve won two monitors. I’m like, I’m sorry. What? Jeff: That’s amazing. Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff: Nice work. I know I’ve, you know, I’ve been staring at those boxes behind you this whole time, just being like, those look like some sweet monitors. Christina: yeah, yeah. Monitor Setup Challenges Christina: I mean, and, uh, [00:37:00] uh, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, and I, I’m very much, so my, my, my only issue is, okay, how am I gonna get these on my desk? So I’m gonna have to do something with my iMac and I’m probably gonna have to get rid of my, my my, my 5K, um, uh, uh, studio display, at least in the short term. Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles Christina: Um, but what I did do is I, um, I ordered from, um, Ergotron, ’cause I already have. Um, two of their, um, LX mounts, um, or, or, or, or arms. Um, and only one of them is being used right now. And then I have a different arm that I use for the, um, um, iMac. Um, they sell like a, if you call ’em directly, you can get them to send you a tall pole so that you can put the two arms on top of them. And that way I think I can like, have them so that I can have like one pole and then like have one on one side, one Jeff: I have a tall pole. Christina: and, and yeah, that’s what she said. Um, Jeff: as soon as I said it, I was like, for fuck’s sake. But Christina: um, but, uh, but, but yeah, but so that way I think I, I can, I, in theory, I can stack the market and have ’em side by side. I don’t know. Um, I got that. I, I had to call Tron and, and order that from them. [00:38:00] Um, it was only a hundred dollars for, for the poll and then $50 for a handling fee. Jeff: It’s not easy to ship a tall pole. Brett: That’s what she said. Christina: that is what she said. Uh, that is exactly what she said. But yeah, so I, I, the, the, the unfortunate thing is that, um, I, um, I, I had to, uh, get a, like all these, they, they came in literally right before Thanksgiving, and then I’ve had, like, all my back stuff has Jeff: Yeah, no Christina: debilitating, but I’m looking forward to, um, getting them set up and used. And, uh, yeah. Review Plans and Honest Assessments Christina: And then full review will be coming to, uh, to, I have to post a review on Reddit, but then I will also be doing a more in depth review, uh, on this podcast if anybody’s interested in, in other places too, to like, let let you know, like if it’s worth your money or not. Um, ’cause there, like I said, there are, there are a few other options out there. So it’s not one of those things where like, you know, um, like, thank you very much for the free monitor, um, monitors. But, but I, I will, I will give like the, the, you know, an honest assessment or Current Display Setup Brett: So [00:39:00] do you currently have a two display setup? Christina: No. Um, well, yes, and kind of, so I have my, my, I have my 5K studio display, and then I have like my iMac that I use as a two to display setup. But then otherwise, what I’ve had to do, and this is actually part of why I’m looking forward to this, is I have a 4K 27 inch monitor, but it’s garbage. And it, it’s one of those things where I don’t wanna use it with my Mac. And so I wind up only using it with my, with my Windows machine, with my framework desktop, um, with my Windows or Linux machine. And, and because that, even though I, it supports Thunderbolt, the Apple display is pain in the ass to use with those things. It doesn’t have the KVM built in. Like, it doesn’t like it, it just, it’s not good for that situation. So yeah, this will be of this size. I mean, again, like I, I, I’m 2 32 inch monitors. I don’t know how I’m gonna deal with that on my Jeff: I Brett: yeah. So right now I’m looking at 2 32 inch like UHD monitors, Christina: Yeah,[00:40:00] Brett: I will say that on days when my neck hurts, it sucks. It’s a, it’s too wide a range to, to like pan back and forth quickly. Like I’ll throw my back out, like trying to keep track of stuff. Um, but I have found that like if I keep the second display, just like maybe social media apps is the way I usually set it up. And then I only work on one. I tried buying an extra wide curve display, hated it. Jeff: Uh, I’ve always wanted to try one, but Christina: I don’t like them. Jeff: Yeah. Christina: Well, for me, well for me it’s two things. One, it’s the, I don’t love the whole like, you know, thing or whatever, but the big thing honestly there, if you could give me, ’cause people are like, oh, you can get a really big 5K, 2K display. I’m like, that’s not a 5K display. That is 2 27 inch, 1440 P displays. One, you know, ultra wide, which is great. Good for you. That’s not retina. And I’m a sicko Who [00:41:00] needs the, the pixel doubling? Like I wish that my eyes could not use that, but, but, but, Jeff: that needs the pixel. Like was that the headline of your Reddit, uh, Christina: no, no. It wasn’t, it wasn’t. But, but maybe it should be. Hi, I’m a sicko who only, um, fucks with, with, with, with, with, with, with retina displays. Ask me anything. Um, but no, but that’s a good point. Brett: I think 5K Psycho is the Christina: 5K Sicko is the po is the po title. I like that. I like that. No, what I’m thinking about doing and that’s great to know, Brett. Um, this kind of reaffirms my thing. Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences Christina: So what’s nice about these monitors is that they come with like, built in like, um, Thunderbolt 5K VM. So, which is nice. So you could conceivably have multiple, you know, computers, uh, connected, you know, to to, to one monitor, which I really like. Um, I mean like, ’cause like look, I, I’ve bitched and moaned about the studio display, um, primarily for the price, but at the same time, if mine broke tomorrow and if I didn’t have any way to replace it, I’ve, I’ve also gone on record saying I would buy a new one immediately. As mad as I am about a [00:42:00] lot of different things with that, that the built-in webcam is garbage. The, you know, the, the fact that there’s not a power button is garbage. The fact that you can’t use it with multiple inputs, it’s garbage. But it’s a really good display and it’s what I’m used to. Um, it’s really not any better than my LG Ultra fine from 2016. But you know what? Whatever it is, what it is. Um. I, I am a 5K sicko, but being able to, um, connect my, my personal machine and my work machine at the same time to one, and then have my Windows slash Linux computer connected to another, I think that’s gonna be the scenario where I’m in. So I’m not gonna necessarily be in a place where I’m like, okay, I need to try to look at both of them across 2 32 inch displays. ’cause I think that that, like, that would be awesome. But I feel like that’s too much. Brett: I would love a decent like Thunderbolt KVM setup that could actually swap like my hubs back and Christina: Yes. MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons Brett: Um, so, ’cause I, I have a studio and I have my, uh, Infor MacBook Pro [00:43:00] and I actually work mostly on the MacBook Pro. Um, but if I could easily dock it and switch everything on my desk over to it, I would, I would work in my office more often. ’cause honestly, the M four MacBook Pro is, it’s a better machine than the original studio was. Um, and I haven’t upgraded my studio to the latest, but, um, I imagine the new one is top notch. Christina: Oh yeah. Yeah. Brett: my, my other one, a couple years old now is already long in the tooth. Christina: No, I mean, they’re still good. I mean, it’s funny, I saw that some YouTube video the other day where they were like, the best value MacBook you can get is basically a 4-year-old M1 max. And I was like, I don’t know about that guys. Like, I, I kind of disagree a little bit. Um, but the M1 max, which is I think is what is in the studio, is still a really, really good ship. But to your point, like they’ve made those, um. You know, the, the, the new ones are still so good. Like, I have an M three max as my personal laptop, and [00:44:00] that’s kind of like the dog chip in the, in the m um, series lineup. So I kind of am regretful for spending six grand on that one, but it is what it is, and I’m like, I’m not, I’m not upgrading. Um, I mean, maybe, maybe in, in next year if, if the M five Pro, uh, or M five max or whatever is, is really exceptional, maybe I’ll look at, okay, how much will you give me to, to trade it in? But even then, I, I, but I feel like I’m at that point where I’m like, it gets to a point where like it’s diminishing returns. Um, but, uh, just in terms of my own budget. But, um, yeah, the, the new just info like pro or or max, whatever, Brett: I have, I have an M four MacBook Pro sitting around that I keep forgetting to sell. Uh, it’s the one that I, it only had a 256 gigabyte hard drive, Jeff: what happened to me when I bought my M1, Brett: and I, and I regretted that enough that I just ordered another one. But, uh, for various reasons, I couldn’t just return the one I didn’t Jeff: ’cause it was.[00:45:00] Brett: so now I, now I have to sell it and I should sell it while it’s still a top of the line machine Christina: Sell it before, sell, sell, sell, sell it before next month, um, or, or February or whenever they sell it before then the, the pros come out. ’cause right now the M five base is out, but the pros are not. So I think feel like you could still get most of your value for it, especially since it has very few battery cycles. Be sure to put the battery cycles on your Facebook marketplace or eBay thing or whatever. Um, I bought my, uh, she won’t listen to this so she won’t know, but, um, they, there was a, a killer Cyber Monday deal, uh, for Best Buy where they had like a, the, the, the, so it’s several years old, but it was the, the M two MacBook Air, but the one that they upgraded to 16 gigs of Ram when Apple was like, oh, we have to have Apple Intelligence and everything, because they actually thought that they were actually gonna ship Apple Intelligence. So they like went back and they, like, they, they, you know, retconned like made the base model MacBook Air, like 16 [00:46:00] gigs. Um, and, uh, anyway, it was, it was $600, um, Jeff: still crazy. Christina: which, which like even for like a, a, a 2-year-old machine or whatever, I was like, yeah, she, my sister, I think she’s on like, like a 2014 or older than that. Like, like MacBook Air. She doesn’t even know where the MagSafe is. I don’t think she even knows where the laptop is. So she’s basically doing everything like on her phone and I’m like, okay, you need a laptop of some type, but at this point. I do feel strongly that like the, the, the $600 or, or, or actually I think it was $650, it was actually less, it is actually more expensive than what the, the, the Cyber Monday sale was, um, the M1, Walmart, MacBook Air. I’m like, absolutely not like that is at this point, do not buy that. Right? Like, I, especially with eight gigs of ram, I’m, I’m like, it’s been, it’s five years old. It’s a, it was a great machine and it was great value for a long time. $200. Cool, right? Like, if you could get something like use and, and, and, and if you could replace the battery or, you know, [00:47:00] for, for, you know, not, not too much money or whatever. Like, I, I, I could see like an argument to be made like value, right? But there’d be no way in hell that I would ever spend or tell anybody else to spend $650 on that new, but $600 for an M two with Jeff: Now we’re talking. Christina: which has the redesign brand new. I’m like, okay. Spend $150 more and you could have got the M four, um, uh, MacBook Air, obviously all around Better Machine. But for my sister, she doesn’t need that, Jeff: What do we have to do to put your sister in this M two MacBook Christina: that, that, that, that, that, that’s exactly it. So I, I, I was, well, also, it was one of those things I was like, I think that she would rather me spend the money on toys for my nephew for Santa Claus than, than, uh, giving her like a, a processor upgrade. Um, Jeff: Claus isn’t real. Brett: Oh shit. Jeff: Gotcha. Every year I spoil it for somebody. This year it was Christina and Brett. Sorry guys. Brett: right. Well, can I tell you guys Jeff: Yeah. [00:48:00] Brett Software. Brett: two quick projects before we do Jeff: Hold on. You don’t have to be quick ’cause you could call it Brett: We’re already at 45 minutes and I want Jeff: What I’m saying, skip GrAPPtitude. This is it? Brett: okay. Christina: us about Mark. Tell us about your projects. Brett: So, so Mark three is, there’s a public, um, test flight beta link. Uh, if you go to marked app.com, not marked two app.com, uh, marked app.com. Uh, you, there’s a link in the, in the, at the top for Christina: Join beta. Mm-hmm. Brett: Um, and that is public and you can join it and you can send me feedback directly through email because, um, uh, uh, the feedback reporter sucks for test flight and you can’t attach files. And half the time they come through as anonymous feedback and I can’t even follow up on ’em. So email me. But, um, I’ll be announcing that on my blog soon-ish. Um, right now there’s like [00:49:00] maybe a couple dozen, um, testers and I, it’s nice and small and I’m solving the biggest bugs right away. Um, so that’s been, that’s been big. Like Mark, even since we last talked has added. Do you remember Jeff when Merlin was on and he wanted to. He wanted to be able to manage his styles, um, and disable built-in styles. There’s now a whole table based style manager where you Jeff: saw that. Brett: you can, you can reorder, including built-in styles. You can reorder, enable, disable, edit, duplicate. Um, it’s like a full, full fledged, um, style manager. And I just built a whole web app that is a style generator that gives you, um, automatic like rhythm calculations for your CSS and you can, you can control everything through like, uh, like UI fields instead of having to [00:50:00] write CSS. Uh, but you can also o open up a very, I’ve spent a lot of time on the code mirror CSS editor in the web app. Uh, so, and it’s got live preview as you edit in the code mirror field. Um, so that’s pretty cool. And that’s built into marts. So if you go to style, um, generate style, it’ll load up a, a style generator for you. Anyway, there’s, there’s a ton. I’m not gonna go into all the details, but, uh, anyone listening who uses markdown for anything, especially if you want ability to export to like Word and epub and advanced PDF export, um, join the beta. Let me know what you think. Uh, help me squash bugs. But the other thing, every time I push a beta for review before the new bug reports come in, I’ve been putting time into a tool. Markdown Processor: Apex Brett: I’m calling [00:51:00] Apex and um, I haven’t publicly announced this one yet, but I probably will by the time this podcast comes out. Jeff: I mean, doesn’t this count? Brett: It, it does. I’m saying like this, this might be a, you hear you heard it here first kind of thing, um, but if you go to github.com/tt sc slash apex, um, I built a, uh, pure C markdown processor that combines syntax from cram down GitHub flavored markdown, multi markdown maku, um, common mark. And basically you can write syntax from any of those processors, including all of their special features, um, and in one document, and then use Apex in its unified mode, and it’ll just figure out what. All of your syntax is supposed to do. Um, so you can take, you can port documents from one platform to another [00:52:00] without worrying about how they’re gonna render. Um, if I can get any kind of adoption with Apex, it could solve a lot of problems. Um, I built it because I want to make it the default processor in marked ’cause right now, you, you have to choose, you know, cram Christina: Which one? Brett: mark and, and choosing one means you lose something in order to gain something. Um, so I wanted to build a universal one that brought together everything. And I added cool features from some extensions of other languages, such as if you have two lists in a row, normally in markdown, it’s gonna concatenate those into one list. Now you can put a carrot on a line between the two lists and it’ll break it into two lists. I also added support for a. An extension to cram down that lets you put double uh, carrots inside a table cell and [00:53:00] create a row band. So like a cell that, that expands it, you rows but doesn’t expand the rest of the row. Um, so you can do cell spans and row spans and it has a relaxed table version where you don’t have to have an alignment row, which is, uh, sometimes we just wanna make quickly table. You make two lines. You put some pipes in. This will, if there’s no alignment row, it will generate a table with just a table body and table data cells in no header. It also allows footers, you can add a footer to a table by using equals in the separator line. Um, it, it’s, Jeff: This is very civilized, Brett: it is. Christina: is amazing, Brett: So where Common Mark is extremely strict about things, um, apex is extremely permissive. Jeff: also itty bitty things like talk about the call out boxes from like Brett: oh yeah, it, it can handle call out syntax from Obsidian and Bear and Xcode Playgrounds. [00:54:00] Um, and it incorporates all of Mark’s syntax for like file includes and even renders like auto scroll pauses that work in marked and some other teleprompter situations. Um, it uses file ude syntax from multi markdown, like, which is just like a curly brace and, uh, marked, which is, uh, left like a double left, uh, angle bracket and then different. Brackets to surround a file name and it handles IA writer file inclusion where you just type a forward slash and then the name of a file and it automatically detects if that file is an image or source code or markdown text, and it will import it accordingly. And if it’s a CSV file, it’ll generate a table from it automatically. It’s, it’s kind of nuts. I, it’s kind of nuts. I could not have done this [00:55:00] without copilot. I, I am very thankful for copilot because my C skills are not, would not on their own, have been up to this task. I know enough to bug debug, but yeah, a lot of these features I got a big hand from copilot on. Jeff: This is also Brett. This is some serious Brett Terpstra. TURPs Hard Christina: Yeah, it is. I was gonna say, this is like Jeff: and also that’s right. Also, if your grandma ever wrote you a note and it, and though you couldn’t really read it, it really well, that renders perfectly Christina: Amazing. No, I was gonna say this is like, okay, so Apex is like the perfect name ’cause this is the apex of Brett. Jeff: Yes. Apex of Brett. Christina: That’s also that, that’s, that’s not an alternate episode title Apex of Brett. Because genuinely No, Brett, like I am, I am so stunned and impressed. I mean, you all, you always impressed me like you are the most impressive like developer that I, that I’ve ever known. But you, this is incredible. And, and this, I, I love this [00:56:00] because as you said, like common Mark is incredibly strict. This is incredibly permissive. But this is great. ’cause there are those scenarios where you might have like, I wanna use one feature from one thing or one from another, or I wanna combine things in various ways, or I don’t wanna have to think about it, you know? Brett: I aals, I forgot to mention I aals inline attribute list, which is a crammed down feature that lets you put curly brackets after like a paragraph and then a colon and then say, dot call out inside the curly brackets. And then when it renders the markdown, it creates that paragraph and adds class equals call out to the paragraph. Um, and in, in Cramon you can apply these to everything from list items to list to block quotes. Like you can do ’em for spans. You could like have one after, uh, link syntax and just apply, say dot external to a link. So the IAL syntax can add IDs classes and uh, arbitrary [00:57:00] attributes to any element in your markdown when it renders to HTML. And, uh, and Apex has first class support for I aals. Was really, that was, that Christina: that was really hard, Brett: I wrote it because I wanted, I wanted multi markdown, uh, for my prose writing, but I really missed the als. Christina: Yes. Okay. Because see, I run into this sort of thing too, right? Because like, this is a problem like that. I mean, it’s a very niche problem, um, that, that, you know, people who listen to this podcast probably are more familiar with than other types of people. But like, when you have to choose your markdown processor, which as you said, like Brett, like that can be a problem. Like, like with, with using Mark or anything else, you’re like, what am I giving up? What do I have? And, and like for me, because I started using mul, you know, markdown, um, uh, largely because of you, um, I think I was using it, I knew about it before you, but largely because of, of, of you, like multi markdown has always been like kind of my, or was historically my flavor of choice. It has since shifted to being [00:58:00] GitHub, labor bird markdown. But that’s just because the industry has taken that on, right? But there were, you know, certain things like in like, you know, multi markdown that work a certain way. And then yeah, there are things in crammed down. There are things in these other things in like, this is just, this is awesome. This Brett: It is, the whole thing is built on top of C mark, GFM, which is GitHub’s port of common mark with the GitHub flavored markdown Christina: Right. Brett: Um, and I built, like, I kept that as a sub-module, totally clean, and built all of this as extensions on top of Cmar, GFM, which, you know, so it has full compatibility with GitHub and with Common Merck by out, like outta the box. And then everything else is built on top of that. So it, uh, it covers, it covers all the bases. You’ll love it Christina: I’m so excited. No, this is awesome. And I Brett: blazing fast. It can render, I have a complex document that, that uses all of its features and it can render it in [00:59:00] 0.006 seconds. Christina: that’s awesome. Jeff: Awesome. Christina: That’s so cool. No, this is great. And yeah, I, and I think that honestly, like this is the sort of thing like if, yeah, if you can eventually get this to like be like the engine that powers like mark three, like, that’ll be really slick, right? Because then like, yeah, okay, I can take one document and then just, you know, kind of, you know, wi with, with the, you know, ha have, have the compatibility mode where you’re like, okay, the unified mode or whatever yo

Today we step into our final episode of the calendar year 2025. In this episode, you receive a HolyDays channeled message to connect into the 5D / Golden Age / Higher Self frequency and transcend the many false fear narratives of this time.Join us as we cover: *The currency of the artificial world*Counteract the noise in the artificial matrix*The frequency shift of this time*Upgrade your frequency *Be in the world but not of it*What makes the artificial world happy*What keeps you from living your Destiny*Receive a channeled transmission from Source, MM, Yeshua & all of the Highest Light*Perfect time for your enlightenment puts the agenda into hyperdrive*The most important thing for you to be doing at this time*How the 5D brings extremes into balance for your enlightenment*A formula for making Wise decisions during this pressurized time*How to live as you truly are now*Let go of dumbing yourself down to make others comfortable*How to live in Miracles*Break free of mistruths from the mainstream cult-ure, religions, New Age Spirituality, family systems*What the Golden Age is made up of (the finale-crescendo!)*Your True Identity & the Path of Enlightenment*What to do with Fear*Finish 2025 HolyDays Strong with us – watch on YT or see below12/12 Group Healing & MeditationJoin our 12/12 Enlightenment Meditation at 12noonPST LIVE or via replay. Register here: https://square.link/u/BWdkrDQ912/21 Soulstice RitualGet your copy of Love Now here, go to the December 20 entry for your ritual: https://amzn.to/48ISTV8 12/22 LOVE Group Activism for Love Activists & GuidesBecome a Certified Love Activist: https://sacred-spirituality.org/ltg/ If you'd like more: *Receive free transmissions and spirit-led living support at: Sacred-Spirituality.org*Receive The Angelics series here: https://hksbooksandcreations.etsy.com/listing/4399004492*Receive The Sovereignty Series Part 1 – Untangling from theMatrix: https://sacred-spirituality.org/product/sovereignty-series-untangling-from-the-matrix-healing/*Receive The Sovereignty Series Part 2 – Awakening The Feminine Christ: https://sacred-spirituality.org/product/sovereignty-series-phase-2-awaken-the-feminine-christ/

Sebastian Cail joins M|M to discuss his recent growth in social media and ALL his thoughts around it. Hoping to make this a continuous series to track the growth and see how he continues to navigate to keep a steady ascension in his growth curve. (tik tok & IG - @sebastiancail)

“Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.” Ephesians 5:15-16 AMP   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How did God meet you in your experience of army life to reveal your choice of hope vs. fear? What have you learned about community, both before and after your experience of launching your husband into space? For all of us, how can we rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?   Stacey Morgan is always ready with a funny or thoughtful story from her own life; whether it be holding down the home front during military deployments, working for the Smithsonian, skydiving, or blasting  her husband into outer space. Stacey is on staff with MOPS International, a nonprofit focused on the unique needs of mothers around the world. She and her husband, Army colonel and NASA astronaut Drew Morgan, have four children.   Connect with Stacey on Instagram or through her website.   Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Friendship: Friendship with Drew Hunter Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid Nurturing Friendships with Jackie Coleman Art of Friendship with Kim Wier   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.   I'm so excited to share a special Patreon re-release episode. And if you've been with The Savvy Sauce for a while, you know that we used to make some money by having people sign up for Patreon and as a reward, they would get access to special episodes. Now we have done away with that as we've transitioned to becoming a nonprofit, and we want to make all of these episodes available to you, so we re-release a few every year.   What I'd love to ask is, as we're approaching the end of year because we've taken out that revenue stream, would you consider financially supporting Savvy Sauce Charities?   There are two simple ways. First, if you want to mail us a check, that saves us all of the processing fees, and you can make that out to Savvy Sauce Charities and mail it to P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois 61561. Also, if you want to go online, visit thesavvysauce.com and you can type in different words to the search button. You could type in “donate” or “support” and it should take you to the place where there's a button to click and put in your credit card information and give that way. We would be so grateful for any amount, and we love our partnership with you.   Here's our chat.   Stacey Morgan is my guest today, and you may have heard her name in the news over the past few years. She has documented her story in her debut book, The Astronaut's Wife: How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth. And now she's going to share more about that season and all the lessons God taught her about making the most of her one incredible life, and she's going to inspire each of us to do the same.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.   Stacey Morgan: (2:55 - 2:58) I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (2:58 - 3:07) Well, it is truly my pleasure. And will you just start by giving us a little bit more context for our time together and just share a few things about yourself?   Stacey Morgan: (3:08 - 4:49) Sure. Well, hi, my name is Stacey. I currently live in Texas.   I have four kids. I'm married to a guy named Drew who has kind of an unusual job. I grew up in a small town just outside of Boston and was kind of a scholar-athlete growing up interested in a lot of different things but always involved in church and youth group. And that really served me well when I went off to college.   The first college I went to, West Point. And actually, I'll tell you in a minute, but that is where I eventually met my now husband, Drew.   We got married after I graduated from undergrad. He's a little bit older than me and he is an Army officer. And so, we have moved all over the country. We've lived on both coasts and had a number of kinds of unusual situations just, you know, kind of typical for a military family living all over the place.   I've had a lot of crazy jobs. I think mainly I have an unusual story because I'm really quick to say yes to things, which sometimes, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Sometimes you say yes and you realize, “I should have thought through that a little bit more.” But really it's been quite an adventure because we have had the opportunity to live in a lot of different places, experience a lot of different things.   And we ended up here in 2013. We can kind of get into that if you want, but we ended up down here in Texas with my husband, who is still an Army officer, but he became a NASA astronaut. And so, that totally changed the direction of our lives and kind of changing all the plans we had for what we were supposed to be doing in the military and ending up down here at Johnson Space Center. Then, him eventually launching into outer space.   Laura Dugger: (4:49 - 5:01) Wow, there are so many points to unpack, but let's back it up to what you had mentioned about West Point. So, will you just elaborate and tell us more about how you and Drew met and fell in love?   Stacey Morgan: (5:01 - 7:21) Sure. So, we were both cadets at West Point when we met. He was a little bit older than me, but we met through Officers' Christian Fellowship, which is a Christian club that is very popular on military bases, both at the academies but in big Army and other services as well when you get out.   It's a, you know, it's like small groups, typical for what most people would find comfortable in kind of church community. And so, we met there and we just kind of clicked, you know.   I would say it's funny looking back, we were not the type of people I think we would have thought we would marry. He was far more serious than I am. I'm a little bit more, I'm the one to more kind of like walk the fine line, but we work together really well.   We've always been a great team. That's always been a real theme in our marriage, you know, that we are a team. And, you know, when he proposed after I graduated from undergrad, he kind of said, “I promise you a life of adventure,” which at the time sounded wonderful and adorable.   Of course, it has come back to haunt me several times when he has been, you know, come up with some crazy plan and when I hesitate he's like, “I promised you adventure.” And I'm like, “Now that's unfair. I did not know when you said adventure back in 2000 that you meant all these crazy things like going to space or all these different deployments and all this kind of stuff like that.”   So, we now have four kids. We've been married this summer will be 22 years. And, you know, it hasn't been without its challenges like any marriage and certainly any marriage under stress because of stressful situations, whether that's military deployments, whether that's space travel or just kind of life and parenting. And as you kind of grow up together and get to know each other and the world changes around you, we've certainly had ups and downs, but we are a team.   And I think God has really honored that and it's been really helpful for us when we've had those sticky seasons where you just feel like, “Man, we are just not connecting or kind of jiving the way we would want,” to actually say to each other that we are on the same team and that has been really helpful.   Laura Dugger: (7:22 - 7:40) The part of your story that involves space travel is one that most of us will never be able to relate to experientially, but it's still extraordinary. So, can you walk us through the detailed events leading up to 9:28 p.m. on July 20th, 2019?   Stacey Morgan: (7:42 - 15:28) Sure. So, I should back it up one big step behind that just to give everybody a little context. So, in 2012, we were kind of living our lives. We had always been deep into the Army Special Operations community. We love that. In order to live and kind of thrive in that environment you have to be all in, and we were all in.   And one day my husband came home and he was uncharacteristically giddy and he said, “You're not gonna believe this huge news. NASA is opening up the application window for a new class of astronauts.”   And I thought, “Why are you telling me this? This has no bearing whatsoever on our lives. We are on this path and that is a completely different path.”   And he said, “Well, I want to apply.”   And I thought to myself, “Well, I wanted to be a ballerina at one point in life, but that ship sailed. Like who doesn't say they always wanted to be an astronaut? Like this seems like a childhood fantasy.”   But he said, “No, I just want to apply. Like don't worry, all of our plans are gonna stay the same. They've never selected an Army physician before. I just, you know, I want to...” You know, the joke was that you'll always be a NASA applicant, right? And that'll be great. We'll laugh about it at family Christmases and stuff.   Except he kept making it through every gate. And so, in 2013 we got the call that completely took our life off of one set of train tracks and put it on another. At that time, we were currently stationed just outside of Washington DC at Fort Belvoir. We were supposed to be literally the next week moving to Germany. And that's how close these changes kind of came up on themselves. And so, we had to unravel everything for Germany and move to Houston, Texas, because that's where Johnson Space Center is.   And so, he began his training in 2013. I started my journey in learning a whole new culture, a whole new way of doing life. I'd never lived in a place that was at least not near a military base or within a military community. Didn't quite recognize at the time how much that shared sense of community had made things easier in terms of connecting with people before that and when I didn't have it.   So, it was probably our rockiest transition for me personally that I'd ever had in terms of friendships and getting connected. That's a big part of my story because I think friendship struggles are so common for adult women. It's just something that nobody really teaches us how to do and so a lot of women are very lonely.   But fast forward, he trained for several years until it was eventually his turn to fly. And in 2019, the only way to get to the International Space Station was to fly on a Russian Soyuz rocket. So, some people are very confused because they think, “Well, every space movie I've ever watched is taking place in Florida, right? Whether that's Apollo 13 or Armageddon or whatever. Why didn't he launch from Florida?”   Well, between 2011 and 2020, the Space Shuttle program had ended. SpaceX Crew Dragon had not yet started launching from Florida again. So, for about a 10-year period, the only way to get to and from the International Space Station was to ride a Russian rocket.   So, that's what NASA did. They went into partnership with the Russians, which of course makes things very interesting given today's kind of current political climate and all the world events. But that meant when it was Drew's turn to launch, we as a family had to travel to Kazakhstan, which is a country that I could not spell before 2019.   And so, if you don't know where that is, don't feel bad. I didn't either. I had to look it up. It's a former Soviet Republic really kind of in between Russia and Afghanistan. So, it is in the middle of nowhere. And when the Soviets were building their space program in the 1950s and 60s, they built their secret space city there in Kazakhstan. That's where they started their space program and they have kind of kept it unchanged and they continue to launch their rockets from there today.   It was a whole kind of world travel and cultural experience to take my four kids to Kazakhstan, which is a completely different cultural experience for really what came down to a very stressful, very emotional moment really waiting for that launch. So, unlike Florida, which you know when you watch on television, it's colorful, there's a lot of people, a lot of spectators, big people remember from the shuttle days big countdown clock, a loudspeaker kind of telling everybody what's going on... that's not how it is in Kazakhstan.   So, about 30 minutes before the launch, the kids and I were brought to this viewing area. And by viewing area I would say big field. It's not... there was kind of some grandstands area far at the other end of the field, but that's where all the space tourists stand and the press and all that kind of stuff and we didn't want to be near them. So, our escort brought us down to the end, the other end of the field, and it's just dark and it's quiet and there's no announcements. There's no countdown clock. It's just looking at your watch or your phone there just kind of in the dark and you just know that that Russian ground crew is going to launch that rocket at exactly 9:28 p.m. Not a minute earlier, not a minute later.   And so, standing there in the dark holding my kids' hands, and we can see the rocket in the distance only about a mile away, which by rocket launch standards is very close. Knowing that in a minute or 30 seconds or 10 seconds as it gets closer, it's either going to be one of the best days of your life, super exciting, super proud moment, or it's going to be the worst day of your life, and you could become a widow.   And as much as it's easy to kind of get complacent because incidents are so rare, but we all can remember any number of space disasters that have happened. Columbia, Challenger, those are very real. And with my time down here at Johnson Space Center, you come to learn those names and you meet those families and you meet those widows and widowers and you realize that space travel is dangerous. You know, at the end of the day my husband was in a little tiny capsule on top of a rocket full of highly explosive fuel. So, it's very scary.   And in that moment standing there thinking, “In 10 seconds my life is going to change no matter what happens.” Even if this goes perfectly, what happens next? I don't really know. It's kind of like having a baby. You can read all about it and assume things will be the way they're going to be, but until you're in it and then it happens, you don't really know how it's gonna go.   And so, it was a really overwhelmingly emotional moment because you think this could go sideways. And also, by the way, the world is watching live with me. So, if something goes wrong, I'm not able to process this privately. I will be experiencing it in real time with the rest of the world.   But even if it goes perfectly, what happens next? Like what does it look like to live on earth with a spouse in space and single parent for nine plus months while their other parent is in space? And you really don't know and it's scary to think like, “Gosh, what if something happens?” You know, he can't like come home early. Can't just like a business trip jump on a plane or a train and get home early. There's no coming back early. So, whatever happens, I'm on my own for better or worse. I'm on my own and I hope I have the endurance and the support system and everything I'm gonna need in order to be successful in this nine months.   Laura Dugger: (15:28 - 15:47) And my heart is pounding a little bit faster just as I hear you describe this. And I'd love to get back to your story, but first just to pause and wonder with that mixture of this adventure right in front of you and then your experience of army life, how did God meet you in all of that to reveal your choice of you're able to choose hope or fear?   Stacey Morgan: (15:47 - 22:32) Right. So, you know, when you take the time to step back and think, sometimes you don't see these patterns in your life until you kind of start putting them down on paper. And it was interesting for me to see how God had prepared me for that moment with other moments, especially related to military deployments in the past. Because certainly experiencing a rocket launch and all that fear and kind of this moment of where is my hope found in this moment, that was a varsity level moment.   But I'm so thankful that about ten years earlier God really started to prepare me for that moment with some other big moments. Like when my husband deployed for the first time.   I'll never forget, it was the height of the War on Terror. So, we were living in a military community which was amazing and a lot of my friends' husbands were also serving in the same military units or similar military units and they were deploying. The tempo was high so that meant, you know, six months deployed or longer, coming home for short amounts of time and then deploying again. Lots of action specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.   And so, lots of fatalities, lots of injuries, lots of grief, and for spouses a lot of fear because we knew what they were doing was very dangerous. And so, for me and my friends we kind of had this unspoken rule which I think a lot of people can understand which was, “Let's just not talk about this scariest thing because somehow talking about it makes it seem more possible.”   And as crazy as that is to say, people get that. You know, there's a lot of things we don't talk about because it's just too scary to think about. And so, for us the scariest thing in our life at that time was the fear that our husbands would not come home, that they would be killed in action. And that felt very real because we were going to memorial services, we were visiting people in the hospital, we were turning on the news and seeing what was going on in the world. And there was often communication blackouts because we knew that they were doing things that were very dangerous, very secretive.   And so, at the time I happily did what everybody else was doing which was, “Let's just not talk about it. Let's just kind of live life managing.” We felt like we were managing this fear, I think that's what I would have said at the time.   But then one day my friend Lisa, who's an amazing friend and she's always like two steps ahead of me on the wisdom scale, we were having coffee on her front porch and she turned to me and she said, “I've been thinking a lot about what life would be like if our husbands were killed.”   And this was like a bomb drop. I mean because we just were not supposed to be talking about this. Like here the rest of us had been avoiding all morbid thoughts about what could possibly happen with our husband and instead she had like turned and looked it straight in the eye.   And I was shocked. And so, I kind of sat up straighter and I said, “What do you mean?”   And she said, “Well, I've been thinking about it and it's not that, you know, life would certainly be hard and doesn't mean we wouldn't need counseling or our kids wouldn't need support, but life would still go on even if that happened. Life would still go on. Life would still be full of good things and God would provide and bring people around us to support us and I've just been thinking about that.”   And I was stunned. I was absolutely stunned because while the rest of us were too afraid to face that fear, in looking at it she kind of exposed it for what it was, which was certainly real and an absolute possibility that that could happen. But when she started walking down the path of like, “Okay, if this happened then what would happen?” You have to decide, “Do I believe God would really be with me or not? Do I believe His promises are true that He will be with me on good days and bad days and that He will draw people to me who will love me and support me? And have I plugged myself into friends and a faith community that would be there for me if that happened?”   And it was a game changer. That was probably one of, at the time, the biggest life-changing conversations I'd ever had as an adult because it really did shift how I viewed feeling afraid about things like that. And so, I had several opportunities... Drew deployed several times and then certainly doesn't take combat deployments to feel afraid like that. I know I have felt it before when my daughter was in the NICU, you know, and I had to leave her in the NICU and go home at night. I know I have felt it during this pandemic several times. I know I'm gonna feel it when I drop my oldest off at college this summer. You know, this moment where it just life feels very scary mainly because of the unknowns that come next and the fact that you have no control over those.   And so, that rocket launch moment was, you know, I felt like God was really prompting me in that moment to say, “Hey, if this rocket explodes like what will you do with that? Do you still trust me that I'm here with you and that I will still bring people to you and love you? Like is your support, is your foundation and your hope truly found in me or is it found in this rocket launch going successfully? Because it might not, and then what does that mean for you?”   And so, it really was this choice of am I gonna choose to live a life of fear, which is our default because if you do not choose something else we will always live a life dictated by fear of something. It's exhausting to live like that because once you conquer one fear another one's gonna pop up. Then they come in bunches and they just start layering on top of each other. Honestly it can lead to despair because there's plenty of things in the world to be afraid of and new ones just pop up every day.   So instead, I felt like God was offering me a new way of living and it really felt tangible in that moment of that rocket launch which is, “Hey, I hope that you will choose to find your hope in me. Just me. The one unchanging thing in this world that will be unchanging regardless of what happens with this rocket launch in 10 seconds. But if it goes well or if it goes poorly I am unchanging. You can rely on me. I will be with you in the best and the worst of times. And even if the rocket launch goes successfully and whatever happens in the next nine months, I'm with you there as well. So, you don't need to be afraid because I'm here with you. You can have hope that I will enable you to do what must be done no matter what happens tomorrow.”   Laura Dugger: (22:32 - 22:49) I'm so grateful that you chose hope and you chose faith. And then after all of that excitement and that adrenaline experienced on launch day, what did your life look like in the months to follow?   Stacey Morgan: (22:49 - 26:47) Yeah, it wasn't easy. You know I joke that those nine months really were like it was like a master class in all these little lessons I've learned throughout the years, but I'd never had to put them into practice at this level and all at the same time.   So, things like being honest about that I needed help. That, you know, there are times in the past where I have certainly wanted people to know or think that I had it all together and that I could do it all by myself especially, you know, I think every mom feels that way.   Certainly, military spouses, we take a lot of pride and feel like I'm doing this on my own.   And I realize now that I had certain seasons I have made life a lot harder for myself because I somehow thought that there was like an extra trophy if I finish the race by myself. I said that it was like, spoiler, there's no trophy. And also, I was just making it harder for myself.   And so, this season I could not fake it. Like past seasons I could fake it. This one I could not fake it. I had two teenagers, two tweens, a lot of hormones and then prepubescent and puberty things flying around. Just a lot of scheduling, a lot of driving, like just life. And then just the stress of living with someone who, you know, a spouse who was living in space and the stress of what does that do to your marriage, to parenting and, you know, parent-child relationships. Just every single piece of running a house, of parenting all the things, was solely on my shoulders and that's a big weight. And it was tough. It was tough.   So, I could not fake it. I had to ask for help. I had to be willing to ask for it and receive it, which are two different skill sets I found. It's sometimes you get good at one and not the other. I had to get really willing to be vulnerable as my friends and say things like, “I'm really lonely.” Can you know, it's like being honest. Like everything's not just, “Oh, this is so exciting. Oh, isn't it so great? Aren't we just so proud of them?” Yes, but at the same time sometimes I'm lonely. Sometimes I'm struggling.   Sometimes in my stress I would overly focus on trying to control my home life or what was happening within my own house and become not as pleasant of a person to live with because I was just trying to kind of regain some control in what felt like a little bit of a chaotic world and then you become not your best self and you know that. And so, I had to learn how to kind of get out of that survival mode and still have fun even when life is hard. And really just kind of accept that life isn't one thing or the other. You can be in a hard season and it still have good things in it. Life can be full of opportunities and challenges and one does not negate the other. And when you try to live your life by one narrative or the other, not only are you faking it but you make life harder than it needs to be and you kind of block other people out of it.   So, there was a lot of learning going on in there but we really all came down to that first decision of how am I gonna live my life in this season? Am I gonna live it fearfully, reactionary, hair trigger, you know, just stress all the time because I'm afraid of what comes next. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to handle it? Or am I gonna live a life of hope, which is of course like not wishes and dreams but it is anticipation that God will be with me no matter what comes down the pipeline. And sometimes that's divine comfort that is hard to explain but you just feel it. Sometimes it's people he draws to your life who literally will sit on the couch with you and just like hold your hand or give you a hug that moment you need it. Sometimes it's someone offering to carpool or take your kid out driving because they're trying to get their driver's license, you know?   But that's really the biggest thing for me. I talked about it in chapter one of the book because that's the foundation that really all those other lessons were built on.   Laura Dugger: (26:47 - 27:26) And I think also with your book, it was helpful to hear little insights into what it looked like for your marriage. And it was even interesting when you said it's really important for astronauts to have forms of entertainment and that you were so committed to being involved in Drew's life and that you two still found ways to stay connected. I just think that has to be encouraging to any married couples listening right now because you clearly had a big barrier to overcome. But what were some of those ways that the two of you tried as best as you could in that season to stay intimately connected to one another's lives?   Stacey Morgan: (27:26 - 31:19) Yeah, it's not easy. And I think there's kind of this fallacy that is kind of dangerous for especially young married I think to believe which is like in every season of your life you're gonna feel amazingly connected to your spouse and you're gonna constantly be growing in your relationship. And sometimes that's not true. Like sometimes one person has a job that takes them away from home or someone is sick or there are other issues going on in your life where the connection is just not as strong not because you don't want it to be but because the circumstances you find yourself in don't allow for that.   And certainly, while my husband was in space that was a lot of challenges to feeling connected. I mean there's good communication but there's a difference between like quality and quantity, right? So, he could call me on the phone every day but because of the time differences and his schedule the only time he could call me was between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m. my time, which as any person knows and with any kids, is like the worst time of the day. Like everything's happening, the wheels are coming off, homework, pickups, dinner prep, like all that kind of stuff was crazy.   So, needless to say, I was not able to sit down and have like a heartfelt drawn-out conversation. And then kids hate talking on the phone so he wasn't really talking to them during the day. I'm like, you know, my eight-year-old isn't gonna send him an email. So, you know, there wasn't like a lot of quality or quantity conversation with the kids which of course puts a little stress on your marriage too because you worry about that.   And then we have one video chat a month and you want it to be fun. You want it to kind of be good for the kids as well as him but it's a very, you know, it's one hour to share between five people and so that's not a lot of time. And so, the reality is that for that season there was a lot of, I would say, relationship treading water. And you're, you know, the goal is just not to let things go downhill, which you can easily do in life when you and your spouse are experiencing the same event but from different points of view. And that's what we were doing. You know, we were sharing the mission but from two vastly different points of view.   And so, you do your best. But the difference is I think you have to in order to kind of come out on the other end better, you have to have a kind of a mutual commitment that, “Hey, we're going to... we are eventually going to come back together on this. We can't change the circumstances. I can't make the time difference different. I can't give you more time on the phone. I can't... there's things I just cannot change. But we are committed as a team to doing the best we can right now and when this circumstance changes, in this case when he came home, we're gonna kind of back up again and do some story sharing and reconnect about some things that we just didn't have the opportunity to in the past.”   And so, it's a little bit kind of like two steps forward one step back but eventually you still come out ahead if you are committed to trying to come back together and share those experiences in one way or another. Where you run into kind of danger is if people start experiencing two different things and then they never come back together so the gap just kind of keeps widening and widening. And then you hear when people say like, “Yeah, I woke up and I felt like I was living a different life than the person who was sleeping next to me.”   And so, reminding us to ourselves that we are a team even though we were experiencing the same thing. I didn't know a lot about a lot of the things he was doing. He didn't know a lot of stories about how things were for me. And so, it's okay to tell them later if you don't have the ability to tell them in the moment as long as you both have the goodwill and you prioritize coming back together eventually.   Laura Dugger: (31:19 - 34:26) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University.   Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associate's degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process. So, if you're looking for an affordable college option while simultaneously gaining valuable work experience and earning an income, Chick-fil-A East Peoria is the place for you. You don't have to go into debt to get a great education. To apply today, please go to https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria  and click on the careers tab. You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Did you know that this podcast is 100% listener supported? We love producing free content that's available to everyone around the world with our monthly newsletters when you sign up for our email list and with our weekly episodes. We pray that this has been a benefit to you. That if any episode has ever impacted you, what we ask is that you will partner with us now and generously and prayerfully give financially before the end of the year. There's multiple ways to do this. Online at thesavvysauce.com, you can donate through Stripe,  PayPal, or Venmo with just a simple click. Or you can send snail mail to us at Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101 Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. We hope you choose to support us today and during this season especially.   It sounds like you really leaned into your friendships. So, what would you say you've learned about community both before and after your experience of launching Drew into space?   Stacey Morgan: (34:26 - 38:07) Well, I tell you what, I realized that as an adult often a lot of us don't really know how to do friendship well. And our culture is so, it so values independence that we often convince ourselves that if we tell our friends or our community that we need help or just kind of show our true heart for how important it is to us, that somehow that's gonna be kind of like devalued or we're gonna feel weak. And I realized like, “Man, I wasted a lot of years trying to be tougher than I really am.” And I wish I could go back and change that because in this season, mainly because I had no choice. And so, God really used this opportunity to show me like, “Hey, I'm gonna kind of like force you to open up your heart, be vulnerable with this small group of really trusted friends and like just trust me to see what happens next.”   And I did and it was a game-changer. I mean, I have a lot of deep feelings but I put a little bit of a tough exterior and I forced myself to be super honest and super vulnerable with my friends and say things like, “I'm lonely or I don't even know what I need but I'm just feeling exhausted or angry or this is really frustrating to me or I need help with this and I don't even know where to begin.” And just let those friends step into my life in a really intimate way.   And you know, I think we've all had a friend at some point who has asked for help and we have been so happy to help them and we've never thought less of them for it. But somehow when it comes to our own time we're like, “Oh, I don't want to trouble anybody. Oh, they're gonna think I can't handle it.” Or like, “Well, this is like I made this bed so I better lie in it. You chose to have all these kids, you chose this career, you chose this whatever, like this is your problem.” But we would never say that about another friend. And so, I don't know why we are harder on ourselves than we are on our friends because it's not right. Most of our friends are happy to help us. They love us helping us, being with us, comforting us, supporting us. That's how they show how important you are to them and we need to let them do that.   I've also gotten better about verbalizing the feelings that I had always felt inside but I felt awkward verbalizing. Like, “Thank you for being my friend.” Or like, “Thank you for just spending this time with me,” or, “You are an important person in my life.” Words that we say to our kids, that we often say to our spouses, but sometimes for me at least felt weird saying to friends and I'm really trying to get better about that. That was a great nine months of practice. It doesn't come easy or natural I think to anybody but it's a game changer. Like why not tell your friends how much they mean to you?   So, community is essential. Like don't try to lone wolf this life. I've certainly had some more extreme experiences than probably the average person, but the principles are the same. Get plugged into community and have multiple circles of community. Certainly, your faith community but also you know if you work, if you go to the gym, if you go to school, like your kids' friends, like there's so many circles of community and don't be afraid to just jump right in and get connected. And you've got to do it before you are in crisis. You've got to kind of invest in these friendships so that you know them and can trust these friends so that when those seasons come that are hard you have this small group of people who you can rely on. It will be a complete game changer in your life when you have a small, could be one person, can be two people, trusted people who can journey with you.   Laura Dugger: (38:07 - 38:34) I could not agree more. I really think that friendship is one of the most precious gifts were given in this life. And going back to your marriage we had discussed that time of separation but then there was a whole other season of transition as well. So, what was it like to come back together after being apart for nearly 10 months?   Stacey Morgan: (38:34 - 42:55) Yeah, so it's funny there's always these Hollywood romanticized versions of what reunions must look like whether that's a military deployment reunion or you know when an astronaut comes home. And I think people assume it's some kind of like hot sexy romantic can't keep hands off of you but the reality is far different, right? Because it's... I mean maybe it is, maybe that's how it is for some people. I will just say for us, you know, when you've been living an independent life for however long, whether that was you know a six-month or an eight-month deployment or a nine-month deployment to outer space, you know I was living my own life fully independent for that long where I made all the choices. I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder or you know there's a little bit of independent freedom there when you're the only one kind of making the big decisions.   And so, when that person comes back into your life, which you want them to come back, you're happy they're home, but there is this awkward transition period. It's definitely an opportunity for some tension because now there's another opinion back in the mix, right?   Like I had to kind of adjust my way of doing life for another person who had a valid opinion, another decision maker. The kids had to adjust to having another parent back in the house. You're kind of getting to know each other so there is a little bit of a sniffing out period where you're like, “Hey, nice to meet you.” Because we all change. You know you could be gone from someone for a month, you know, you're not the same person you were today as you were last year or six months ago or maybe even a month ago. So, anytime someone comes back in your life they're different, you're a little different. You're like my friendships had shifted over those ten months, like my work had shifted, everything in my life had moved on and he had not been there in the house with me to experience that so there was... it was a whole new set of experiences and a new person to get to know again.   Now he came home and what made it a little bit more dramatic was that Drew came home in the startup of the pandemic. He came home in April of 2020 which at the time I think we weren't sure, “Are we going up? Are we coming down?” We know now looking back we realize things were just ramping up; the world was, we were all still very confused about what's the best thing to do can we all the things you know. So, NASA pretty much brought him home and then he came home to our house after just a few days in kind of the quarantine facility there on Johnson Space Center. But then he came back to our house and then it's like he never left because all of the normal stuff that would happen when you come home from space like travel and meetings and all these kind of things were all canceled or postponed.   And so, instead of kind of like getting to know each other slowly it was like zero to sixty. I mean he was home and he didn't go anywhere, none of us could go anywhere. So, we joke that the irony that he was in space with five professional crew mates in a small space and then he came home to live in our small space with five amateur crew mates who are certainly not nearly as gracious or accommodating or helpful as the professional astronaut and cosmonaut crew mates he had. The irony is not lost on us. So, he came home I don't think we've ever spent that amount of time together you know 24/7 in the same house with all four of our kids, no school, nowhere to go because everything's closed. And so yeah we're getting to know each other in this kind of Petri dish of new experiences as the world is also kind of like upside down and everything's unusual.   So, in the end it was okay. I joke like we did a lot of “I was like let me go do this puzzle I just need some alone time” or “I'm going for a walk around the neighborhood please don't text me. I'll be back when I'll be back I just need a few minutes to myself.” I think everybody has had that moment in the during the last two years where you're just like, “I just need a few minutes alone please,” you know in my if you've been trapped in your house with somebody who you're not normally with 24/7.   Laura Dugger: (42:56 - 43:17) Well sure and with your experience, mental health is very important for the family of the astronaut and the astronaut themselves. Wasn't it your psychologist who is saying typically when you come back and enter this time of reentry and reuniting you do little bit by little bit because that tends to be wiser?   Stacey Morgan: (43:17 - 45:22) Yes, that's right. They call it titrating a return. That's a principle they have in the military as well which is they would normally come back from a deployment for at least the first couple weeks back from a long trip away they would go to work every day for several hours because it's you know psychologically difficult for two people who have been living very independent lives to come back together just with like zero transition. The military has learned this over the last 20 years you know that you could go from a combat zone to mowing your lawn in 24 hours. That's stressful especially if you add in you know marriage baggage, kids you know nagging kids or issues like that, financial struggles, that's a kind of what can be a breeding ground for some really difficult situation. So, it's best to let people get to know each other again a little bit at a time.   Like you said the normal return from space was kind of the same thing. It would be come home and then you'd have some physical therapy, you'd have these different meetings and it would be a little bit like going to work for several weeks while they're getting their body and everything back to normal. Then, you kind of could have this kind of extended time at home but it gave both people the ability to kind of like reintroduce themselves to each other in bits and pieces and just kind of ease into it. But we did not have that luxury so we kind of had to create it ourselves. And I am glad again that we had those past experiences to know where the potential minefields were. If you were not prepared you could be very disappointed if you went into it thinking, “Oh, they're gonna come home, it's gonna be like romantic. We're gonna be like together and loving it all the time and just connecting so deeply. It's gonna be amazing.” And then the first time that your spouse is like, “Why are you emptying the dishwasher like that?” It's important to know like, “Yeah, if there is going to be tension it is going to be awkward. That's okay that is part of the normal cycle and it's gonna be okay.” But I'm glad that we had that knowledge beforehand because it could be tough.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:07) Well and Stacey another reason that I really appreciate you being willing to let us enter your story with you. When we have different careers or we have someone in the military and a civilian who's not involved, there's so much room for assumptions and maybe not always assuming the best. There's opportunity for miscommunication so I'm just wondering about the person who's hearing this and what if they're thinking, “Well that sounds irresponsible or even selfish of Drew to choose this path if he's a husband and father.” So, how would you offer that kind of person another perspective that they might be missing?   Stacey Morgan: (46:07 - 48:20) I mean I would say is when it comes to astronauts for sure, you know, these are not like hot-rodding thrill-seeking people. In fact, I would say I think a lot of people make the assumption that people who do some of these higher like physically higher risky jobs must be like thrill-seeking you know just thrown caution to the wind about everything in their life. Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think you would find that we certainly and I would you know I think a lot of people in the same career field are similar and that we are good risk calculators. And that like policemen, like firemen, like military personnel you know it's an act of service to be in this job. These are not just like you know space tourists or billionaires getting on a rocket for fun. These are professionals who have chosen a career field of service and whether that is as a policeman, a fireman, a service to the nation, service to humanity, service to their community and they all play a part in that.   I think most people recognize that that it is you know there's something to be said for the person who chooses a career that has a level of risk because they feel called to it and because thank God for people who will take on risk and are willing to potentially sacrifice themselves for someone else. I mean I think it's kind of a higher calling which is why in general in our culture we honor them and rightfully so. It is risky, it's very risky. They certainly don't do it for the money. I don't think anybody in any kind of government service would say that they're doing it for the money, that's for sure. You know they're doing it because they feel called to something bigger than themselves and to serve their fellow man in some way. That's certainly I know how we feel as a family that his choosing to transition as an Army physician into being still in the Army but serving in this capacity was just the next level up. The way he could serve our community, our country, our nation and all of humanity and he really is its service first. It's the opposite of selfish; it is selfless service really.   Laura Dugger: (48:20 - 48:55) Mm-hmm thank you for that. I just say amen to everything you just said. Really it's service from your entire family that requires a sacrifice from each of you like you said for the greater good. And I think something else that you pointed out so well in your book was that having this value more so of security or not living into this calling that you said this calling was put upon your lives that could actually be idolatry if you're starting to place a higher value on security or anything else other than God and so I think you model that well.   Stacey Morgan: (48:55 - 51:13) Thank you. Yeah I think a lot of people you know sometimes these idols creep up on us we don't realize that we have put something on a pedestal until it gets threatened to be taken away from us and all of a sudden our reaction is over the top because we're you know you realize, “Gosh, I'm finding my security in this thing I'm finding my identity in this thing whether this thing is a job, another person, a political party, a scientific breakthrough whatever it is.” Right? Like and I think a lot of people, I certainly felt it you know in that launch moment like, “Am I finding my identity in being married to this person or him having this job or this launch being successful? Because if I am in about 10 seconds my world may crumble because if that could all be taken away from me.” And in that yeah I think we all kind of have probably had a moment especially in the last two years where for a lot of people something that they have built their life on has been either taken away from them or has it has been threatened to be taken away because of the pandemic a job a person in their life you know a relationship your kids going off to school every day I mean whatever it is that you've built in your life and you have put on this pedestal and you kind of made without even realizing it have started to place more hope in those things remaining unchanged than you have in God. And all of a sudden when those things are threatened you have this over-the-top emotionally fearful response that's kind of an indicator I think to all of us like when we have that is like, “Whoo my fear and my response should tell me that I seem to be very very afraid that this is going to be taken away from me because I am putting too much hope in it. Instead, I should be taking that and putting it back where it belongs. I should reprioritize where I am finding my hope and the only unchanging thing that we can build our foundation on is God. Everything else, every person, everything, every job, every whatever it is can and could possibly be taken away from you and on your deathbed will be.” So, you know you can't help but have a little bit of self-reflection there.   Laura Dugger: (51:13 - 51:23) Well and then for all of us how do you recommend that we all can rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?   Stacey Morgan: (51:23 - 56:05) This is a great question because I think all of us have felt this definitely in the pandemic. You know this part in your life where everything in the world feels very chaotic and so you try to regain some control in your own life by maybe regimenting your kids a little more, cleaning your house a little more, you know, controlling things at work or whatever your environment is. And without really realizing it you become this just like survival mode like your day just becomes about making things easier for yourself, streamlining things, making things just go go go. And you wake up one day and you were like, “I'm exhausted. Like why am I so tired? Why am I why do I have like no joy? Why do I just feel unhappy?” And you realize that you have not done anything other than just be like surviving and cleaning and doing work or whatever it is like you have just been doing the basics with no fun whatsoever.   So I have been there I hit that a bunch of times in the pandemic, but I certainly hit it when Drew was in space because it's really hard being a single parent and managing all of the emotional burdens and the logistics of it. And I realized that I was cleaning a lot I was kind of getting a little bit more trigger angry with kids or people who you know were making me upset because when you're in survival mode it's all about just like “Get out of my way let me do what I want to do,” it's about getting things done quickly and other people become an annoyance instead of a joy in your life.   So it's all about going back to something that that fills you up and it can be something really frivolous it can be something like it's very it's 100% unique to you and so I can't tell you what that thing is but I would say the first step in kind of getting yourself out of survival mode and kind of getting back to your your whole self is asking yourself the question like, “What do I enjoy?” Not for its educational value, not for its good cardio exercise or and not what your kids enjoy, not what is Instagram worthy, or anything like in your soul what fills you up? Is it reading? Is it watching movies? Is it riding bikes? Is it roller skating? Is it you know eating Mexican food? Like what is it that you enjoy doing that when you do it you just feel like more of yourself?   And then just go do it tomorrow. Like it's gonna take prioritizing time probably some money but that is as much of a part of who you are how God created you. He didn't make you this like worker bot or like just a mom or just a wife or just a daughter or a sister like He made you a whole person and a huge part of who you are are these things that you enjoy. And you cannot continue to pour into other people or work or your community if you are never getting filled up yourself. You will just dry out, you will be burnt out, you'll be unhappy and you'll actually be worse in all these other areas where you were trying to work hard because you're just gonna be like a shell of yourself.   So, for me it was prioritizing time with friends. It was... I got this crazy flyer on my front door for roller skating lessons and I had this fantasy of being a really good roller skater that stemmed from like when I was eight and so I signed my girls and I up for roller skating lessons which was hilarious and very humbling but it was just silly. It took time, we had to prioritize the time on every Saturday it took money, but it was just fun. It had no educational value my kids will look back on it and be like, “What was that all about? I don't even know.” But it was great because even in the midst of a stressful season like that was a very stressful season, undeniable, but as part of that narrative it will not only be like, “Yeah it was really tough when my dad was away and you know my mom had to like single-parent us but that was also the season where my mom took us to roller skating lessons. Isn't that weird? That was so weird.” And we'll laugh about it.   And so, it's just about finding something that you want to do and then just unapologetically spend the money, spend the time, and invite a friend to do it with you again. Doing something with a friend is always more fun than doing something alone. Don't feel like you have to justify it or explain it to everyone you don't need to take pictures to post online you don't need to tell it just just go do it and have a good time. It's amazing how when you do that suddenly like those dust bunnies or that email that had a weird tone that you got don't annoy you as much as they used to because your kind of like finding your whole self again.   Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 56:27) That's helpful to remember to live life to the fullest and be ready for the next adventure that life's gonna throw at us. Yeah. And just as a bonus can we just ask what are some of the most common questions that you and Drew answer about space?   Stacey Morgan: (56:27 - 57:25) That's a good question. A lot of like personal hygiene questions about teeth brushing toilets how do you know take showers or whatever and of course the answer is they don't take showers. But and then of course a lot of people want to know, “Hey I've always been interested in becoming an astronaut how does somebody do that?”   And there are so many resources online people you know I say, “Look go online read all about it. There's amazing videos NASA puts out an incredible amount of resources that you can read up on but at the end of the day do what you are most passionate about because the likelihood that you, or your nephew, or your cousin, or your co-worker, your son, or, whoever it is that you know is convinced they want to be an astronaut the likelihood of them being an astronaut is very low. So you should do what just fills you up do a career and a life that you are passionate about and if God calls you to that path those doors will open but if He doesn't you'll still be living a life fully within God's purpose for you.”   Laura Dugger: (57:25 - 57:39) And Stacey you're such an incredible communicator both in this interview time together but also really enjoyed your book. And so, if people want to follow you to hear what you're up to next, where would you direct them online?   Stacey Morgan: (57:39 - 58:41) Sure well they can go to my website StaceyMorgan2000. That's like Stacey Morgan two zero zero zero dot com. That has my blog that has links to a different podcast like this that I've been on and they can check that out. They can find me on Instagram same handle StaceyMorgan2000.   And you know if people want to reach out, I love when people have been sending me messages lately after they've read the book it's been so awesome. You know I tell people like I certainly didn't write this book for the money I'm actually donating all my book proceeds to charities that support military families. So, I've been joking like, “Hey read the book if you don't like it the worst that happened is you donated to a military charity. If you do like it buy ten copies and give one to all your friends. But if you do like it I love it when people send me messages and just tell me kind of like what resonated and how it spoke to them.” That's just been one of the I would say the coolest aspect of completing this project was kind of putting it out there and then getting to see how God uses it in people's lives.   Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 59:02) There were so many things that resonated but off the top of my head if anybody has a copy of the book they'll have to turn to the part about baloney on sale friends. And Stacey you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge and so as my final question for you today what is your savvy sauce?   Stacey Morgan: (59:02 - 1:01:08) Well I'll piggyback off your baloney is on sale friends' reference and that would be: pick up the phone and text your friend. We didn't need a study to show us this because I think most of us have just known this in our soul but there is an endemic of loneliness in the world right now as you know we've got all these ways to connect and yet people feel more disconnected. They feel more lonely especially women and what I learned through my own kind of relationship struggles over the years is that everyone's waiting for someone else to go first. That you in that moment you feel like you're the only person who's feeling lonely and alone and that everybody else is in these friend circles and you're just somehow on the outside. But the reality is that pretty much everybody feels the same way you do and everybody's sitting at home wishing someone would just text them and invite them to coffee.   So that's my practical tip is don't wait, go first be the bold friend or even acquaintance like it doesn't have to be someone that you are super besties with. But those baloney is on sale friends like I said you have to read the book and understand that that is like a special category of friendship that's the kind of friendship that our soul longs for but those things don't appear or like pop out of the ground. That kind of friend doesn't just show up it's developed over time it's invested in and cared for and loved and it starts with literally a text to go get coffee. That's how every great friendship story begins. So, if that's you, if you feel like yeah I don't have this close friend who I can do something with I'm lonely. Okay take that first step be the one who picks up the phone send that text message to the woman from church, or the woman from the gym, or that friend you haven't talked to in a while and just invite them over for coffee. Nothing fancy nothing crazy no agenda just come over for a couple hours for coffee. Every single person I know who does this no one ever regrets inviting a friend over for coffee. That's the first step that we can all take into just feeling more connected and having those kind of friends that we want.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:08 - 1:01:31) Love it. Well Stacy your book definitely changed my perspective on risk and I was so hooked on all the stories that you shared so I believe that your book is truly a gift to anyone who chooses to read it and your faith is very inspiring so thank you for sharing your journey with us and thank you for being my guest.   Stacey Morgan: (1:01:31 – 1:01:33) Well, thank you it's been great.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:33 – 1:05:16) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it

Leslie Venetz is a top 1% B2B sales expert, sought-after speaker, and Founder of The Sales-Led GTM Agency. Recognized globally as a LinkedIn Editorial Top Voice, 5x Top 50 Sales Thought Leader, and 2024 Sales Innovator of the Year, Leslie is one of the most influential voices in modern sales. She has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, MorningBrew and Success Magazine and her content has been viewed over 100 MM times. Author of Top 50 USA Today best-seller Profit-Generating Pipeline: A Proven Formula to Earn Trust and Drive Revenue, Leslie helps outbound B2B sales organizations profitable sales strategies. LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/leslievenetz TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@salestipstok YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@b2bsalescoach Twitter: https://x.com/b2b_salescoach Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/b2bsalescoach/ Website: www.salesledgtm.com Book purchase link: www.salesledgtm.com/book/ Leslie's Business Book Club: www.lesliesbookclub.com Revenue Revelry Masterclasses: www.revenuerevelry.comConnect and tag me at:https://www.instagram.com/realangelabradford/You can subscribe to my YouTube Channel herehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDU9L55higX03TQgq1IT_qQFeel free to leave a review on all major platforms to help get the word out and change more lives!

Trusting the process is a really important way to free yourself, and the film, to discover what it is.Viridiana Lieberman is an award-winning documentary filmmaker. She recently edited the Netflix sensation The Perfect Neighbor.In this interview we talk:* Viri's love of the film Contact* Immersion as the core goal in her filmmaking* Her editing tools and workflow* Film school reflections* The philosophy and process behind The Perfect Neighbor — crafting a fully immersive, evidence-only narrative and syncing all audio to its original image.* Her thoughts on notes and collaboration* Techniques for seeing a cut with fresh eyesYou can see all of Viri's credits on her IMD page here.Thanks for reading The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Newsletter! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Here is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation. Don't come for me.BEN: Viri, thank you so much for joining us today.VIRI: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.BEN: And I always like to start with a fun question. So senior year of high school, what music were you listening to?VIRI: Oh my goodness. Well, I'm class of 2000, so I mean. I don't even know how to answer this question because I listen to everything.I'm like one of those people I was raving, so I had techno in my system. I have a lot of like, um. The, like, everything from Baby Ann to Tsta. Like, there was like, there was a lot, um, Oak and like Paul Oak and Full, there was like techno. Okay. Then there was folk music because I loved, so Ani DeFranco was the soundtrack of my life, you know, and I was listening to Tori Amos and all that.Okay. And then there's like weird things that slip in, like fuel, you know, like whatever. Who was staying? I don't remember when they came out. But the point is there was like all these intersections, whether I was raving or I was at Warp Tour or I was like at Lili Fair, all of those things were happening in my music taste and whenever I get to hear those songs and like that, that back late nineties, um, rolling into the Ox.Yeah.BEN: I love the Venn diagram of techno and folk music.VIRI: Yeah.BEN: Yeah. What, are you a fan of the film inside Lou and Davis?VIRI: Uh, yes. Yes. I need to watch it again. I watched it once and now you're saying it, and I'm like writing it on my to-dos,BEN: but yes, it, it, the first time I saw it. I saw in the East Village, actually in the theater, and I just, I'm a Cohen Brothers fan, but I didn't love it.Mm-hmm. But it, it stayed on my mind and yeah. Now I probably rewatch it once a year. It might, yeah. In my, in my, on my list, it might be their best film. It's so good. Oh,VIRI: now I'm gonna, I'm putting it on my, I'm literally writing it on my, um, post-it to watch it.BEN: I'mVIRI: always looking for things to watch in the evening.BEN: What, what are some of the docs that kind of lit your flame, that really turned you on?VIRI: Uh, this is one of those questions that I, full transparency, get very embarrassed about because I actually did not have a path of documentary set for me from my film Loving Passion. I mean, when I graduated film school, the one thing I knew I didn't wanna do was documentary, which is hilarious now.Hilarious. My parents laugh about it regularly. Um. Because I had not had a good documentary education. I mean, no one had shown me docs that felt immersive and cinematic. I mean, I had seen docs that were smart, you know, that, but, but they felt, for me, they didn't feel as emotional. They felt sterile. Like there were just, I had seen the most cliched, basic, ignorant read of doc.And so I, you know, I dreamed of making space epics and giant studio films. Contact was my favorite movie. I so like there was everything that about, you know, when I was in film school, you know, I was going to see those movies and I was just chasing that high, that sensory high, that cinematic experience.And I didn't realize that documentaries could be. So it's not, you know, ever since then have I seen docs that I think are incredible. Sure. But when I think about my origin tale, I think I was always chasing a pretty. Not classic, but you know, familiar cinematic lens of the time that I was raised in. But it was fiction.It was fiction movies. And I think when I found Docs, you know, when I was, the very long story short of that is I was looking for a job and had a friend who made docs and I was like, put me in coach, you know, as an editor. And she was like, you've never cut a documentary before. I love you. Uh, but not today.But no, she hired me as an archival producer and then I worked my way up and I said, no, okay, blah, blah, blah. So that path showed me, like I started working on documentaries, seeing more documentaries, and then I was always chasing that cinema high, which by the way, documentaries do incredibly, you know, and have for many decades.But I hadn't met them yet. And I think that really informs. What I love to do in Docs, you know, I mean, I think like I, there's a lot that I like to, but one thing that is very important to me is creating that journey, creating this, you know, following the emotion, creating big moments, you know, that can really consume us.And it's not just about, I mean, not that there are films that are important to me, just about arguments and unpacking and education. At the same time, we have the opportunity to do so much more as storytellers and docs and we are doing it anyway. So that's, that's, you know, when, it's funny, when light my fire, I immediately think of all the fiction films I love and not docs, which I feel ashamed about.‘cause now I know, you know, I know so many incredible documentary filmmakers that light my fire. Um, but my, my impulse is still in the fiction world.BEN: Used a word that it's such an important word, which is immersion. And I, I first saw you speak, um, a week or two ago at the doc NYC Pro panel for editors, documentary editors about the perfect neighbor, which I wanna talk about in a bit because talk about a completely immersive experience.But thank you first, uh, contact, what, what is it about contact that you responded to?VIRI: Oh my goodness. I, well, I watched it growing up. I mean, with my dad, we're both sci-fi people. Like he got me into that. I mean, we're both, I mean he, you know, I was raised by him so clearly it stuck around contact for me. I think even to this day is still my favorite movie.And it, even though I'm kind of a style nut now, and it's, and it feels classic in its approach, but. There's something about all the layers at play in that film. Like there is this crazy big journey, but it's also engaging in a really smart conversation, right? Between science and faith and some of the greatest lines from that film.Are lines that you can say to yourself on the daily basis to remind yourself of like, where we are, what we're doing, why we're doing it, even down to the most basic, you know, funny, I thought the world was what we make it, you know, it's like all of these lines from contact that stick with me when he says, you know, um, did you love your father?Prove it. You know, it's like, what? What is proof? You know? So there were so many. Moments in that film. And for me, you know, climbing into that vessel and traveling through space and when she's floating and she sees the galaxy and she says they should have sent a poet, you know, and you're thinking about like the layers of this experience and how the aliens spoilers, um, you know, show up and talk to her in that conversation herself.Anyways, it's one of those. For me, kind of love letters to the human race and earth and what makes us tick and the complexity of identity all in this incredible journey that feels so. Big yet is boiled down to Jody Foster's very personal narrative, right? Like, it's like all, it just checks so many boxes and still feels like a spectacle.And so the balance, uh, you know, I, I do feel my instincts normally are to zoom in and feel incredibly personal. And I love kind of small stories that represent so much and that film in so many ways does that, and all the other things too. So I'm like, how did we get there? But I really, I can't, I don't know what it is.I can't shake that film. It's not, you know, there's a lot of films that have informed, you know, things I love and take me out to the fringe and take me to the mainstream and, you know, on my candy and, you know, all those things. And yet that, that film checks all the boxes for me.BEN: I remember seeing it in the theaters and you know everything you said.Plus you have a master filmmaker at the absolute top Oh god. Of his class. Oh my,VIRI: yes,BEN: yes. I mean, that mirror shot. Know, know, I mean, my jaw was on the ground because this is like, right, right. As CGI is started. Yes. So, I mean, I'm sure you've seen the behind the scenes of how theyVIRI: Yeah.BEN: Incredible.VIRI: Years.Years. We would be sitting around talking about how no one could figure out how he did it for years. Anybody I met who saw contact would be like, but how did they do the mirror shot? Like I nobody had kind of, yeah. Anyways, it was incredible. And you know, it's, and I,BEN: I saw, I saw it just with some civilians, right?Like the mirror shot. They're like, what are you talking about? The what? Huh?VIRI: Oh, it's so funny you bring that up because right now, you know, I went a friend, I have a friend who's a super fan of Wicked. We went for Wicked for Good, and there is a sequence in that film where they do the mirror jot over and over and over.It's like the, it's like the. Special device of that. It feels that way. That it's like the special scene with Glenda and her song. And someone next to me was sitting there and I heard him under his breath go,wow.Like he was really having a cinematic. And I wanted to lean over and be like, watch contact, like, like the first time.I saw it was there and now it's like people have, you know, unlocked it and are utilizing it. But it was, so, I mean, also, let's talk about the opening sequence of contact for a second. Phenomenal. Because I, I don't think I design, I've ever seen anything in cinema in my life like that. I if for anybody who's listening to this, even if you don't wanna watch the entire movie, which of course I'm obviously pitching you to do.Watch the opening. Like it, it's an incredible experience and it holds up and it's like when, yeah. Talk about attention to detail and the love of sound design and the visuals, but the patience. You wanna talk about trusting an audience, sitting in a theater and that silence Ah, yeah. Heaven film heaven.BEN: I mean, that's.That's one of the beautiful things that cinema does in, in the theater. Right. It just, you're in, you're immersed in this case, you know, pulling away from earth through outer space at however many, you know, hundreds of millions of miles an hour. You can't get that anywhere else. Yeah. That feeling,VIRI: that film is like all the greatest hits reel of.Storytelling gems. It's like the adventure, the love, the, you know, the, the complicated kind of smart dialogue that we can all understand what it's saying, but it's, but it's doing it through the experience of the story, you know, and then someone kind of knocks it outta the park without one quote where you gasp and it's really a phenomenal.Thing. Yeah. I, I've never, I haven't talked about contact as much in ages. Thank you for this.BEN: It's a great movie. It's there, and there were, there were two other moments in that movie, again when I saw it, where it's just like, this is a, a master storyteller. One is, yeah. When they're first like trying to decode the image.Mm-hmm. And you see a swastika.VIRI: Yeah. Oh yeah. And you're like,BEN: what the, what the f**k? That was like a total left turn. Right. But it's, it's, and I think it's, it's from the book, but it's like the movie is, it's, it's, you know, it's asking these questions and then you're like totally locked in, not expecting.You know, anything from World War II to be a part of this. And of course in the movie the, go ahead.VIRI: Yeah, no, I was gonna say, but the seed of thatBEN: is in the first shot,VIRI: scientifically educating. Oh yes. Well, the sensory experience, I mean, you're like, your heart stops and you get full Bo chills and then you're scared and you know, you're thinking a lot of things.And then when you realize the science of it, like the first thing that was broadcast, like that type of understanding the stakes of our history in a space narrative. And, you know, it, it just, there's so much. You know, unfurling in your mind. Yeah. In that moment that is both baked in from your lived experiences and what you know about the world, and also unlocking, so what's possible and what stakes have already been outside of this fiction, right?Mm-hmm. Outside of the book, outside of the telling of this, the reality of what has already happened in the facts of it. Yeah. It's really amazing.BEN: And the other moment we're just, and now, you know, being a filmmaker, you look back and I'm sure this is, it falls neatly and at the end of the second act. But when Tom scars, you know, getting ready to go up on the thing and then there's that terrorist incident or whatever, and the whole thing just collapses, the whole, um, sphere collapses and you just like, wait, what?Is that what's gonna happen now?VIRI: Yeah, like a hundred million dollars in it. It does too. It just like clink pun. Yeah. Everything.BEN: Yeah.VIRI: Think they'll never build it again. I mean, you just can't see what's coming after that and how it went down, who it happened to. I mean, that's the magic of that film, like in the best films.Are the ones where every scene, every character, it has so much going into it. Like if somebody paused the film there and said, wait, what's happening? And you had to explain it to them, it would take the entire movie to do it, you know, which you're like, that's, we're in it. Yeah. Anyway, so that's a great moment too, where I didn't, and I remember when they reveal spoilers again, uh, that there's another one, but when he is zooming in, you know, and you're like, oh, you know, it just, it's, yeah.Love it. It's wonderful. Now, I'm gonna watch that tonight too. IBEN: know, I, I haven't probably, I probably haven't watched that movie in 10 years, but now I gotta watch it again.VIRI: Yeah.BEN: Um, okay, so let's talk doc editing. Yes. What, um, I always like to, I heard a quote once that something about when, when critics get together, they talk meaning, and when artists get together, they talk paint.So let's talk paint for a second. What do you edit on?VIRI: I cut mainly on Avid and Premier. I, I do think of myself as more of an avid lady, but there's been a lot of probably the films that have done the most. I cut on Premier, and by that I mean like, it's interesting that I always assume Avid is my standard yet that most of the things that I love most, I cut on Premiere right now.I, I toggle between them both multiple projects on both, on both, um, programs and they're great. I love them equal for different reasons. I'm aBEN: big fan of Avid. I think it gets kind of a, a bad rap. Um, what, what are the benefits of AVID versus pr? I've never used Premier, but I was a big final cut seven person.So everybody has said that. Premier kind of emulates Final cut. Seven.VIRI: I never made a past seven. It's funny, I recently heard people are cutting on Final Cut Pro again, which A adds off. But I really, because I thought that ship had sailed when they went away from seven. So with, I will say like the top line things for me, you know, AVID forces you to control every single thing you're doing, which I actually think it can feel hindering and intimidating to some folks, but actually is highly liberating once you learn how to use it, which is great.It's also wonderful for. Networks. I mean, you can send a bin as a couple kilobyte. Like the idea that the shared workflow, when I've been on series or features with folks, it's unbeatable. Uh, you know, it can be cumbersome in like getting everything in there and stuff like that and all, and, but, but it kind of forces you to set up yourself for success, for online, for getting everything out.So, and there's a lot of good things. So then on conversely Premier. It's amazing ‘cause you can hit the ground running. You just drag everything in and you go. The challenge of course is like getting it out. Sometimes that's when you kind of hit the snaps. But I am impressed when I'm working with multiple frame rates, frame sizes, archival for many decades that I can just bring it into Premier and go and just start cutting.And you know, also it has a lot of intuitive nature with other Adobe Pro, you know, uh, applications and all of this, which is great. There's a lot of shortcuts. I mean, they're getting real. Slick with a lot of their new features, which I have barely met. I'm like an archival, I'm like a ancient picture editor lady from the past, like people always teach me things.They're just like, you know, you could just, and I'm like, what? But I, so I guess I, you know, I don't have all the tech guru inside talk on that, but I think that when I'm doing short form, it does feel like it's always premier long form. Always seems to avid. Team stuff feels avid, you know, feature, low budge features where they're just trying to like make ends meet.Feel Premier, and I think there's an enormous accessibility with Premier in that regard. But I still feel like Avid is a studios, I mean, a, a studio, well, who knows? I'm cut in the studios. But an industry standard in a lot of ways it still feels that way.BEN: Yeah, for sure. How did you get into editing?VIRI: I went to film school and while I was there, I really like, we did everything.You know, we learned how to shoot, we learned everything. Something about editing was really thrilling to me. I, I loved the puzzle of it, you know, I loved putting pieces together. We did these little funny exercises where we would take a movie and cut our own trailer and, you know, or they'd give us all the same footage and we cut our scene from it and.Itwas really incredible to see how different all those scenes were, and I loved finding ways to multipurpose footage, make an entire tone feel differently. You know, like if we're cutting a scene about a bank robbery, like how do you all of a sudden make it feel, you know, like romantic, you know, or whatever.It's like how do we kind of play with genre and tone and how much you can reinvent stuff, but it was really structure and shifting things anyways, it really, I was drawn to it and I had fun editing my things and helping other people edit it. I did always dream of directing, which I am doing now and I'm excited about, but I realized that my way in with editing was like learning how to do a story in that way, and it will always be my language.I think even as I direct or write or anything, I'm really imagining it as if I'm cutting it, and that could change every day, but like when I'm out shooting. I always feel like it's my superpower because when I'm filming it's like I know what I have and how I'll use it and I can change that every hour.But the idea of kind of knowing when you've got it or what it could be and having that reinvented is really incredible. So got into edit. So left film school. And then thought and loved editing, but wasn't like, I'm gonna be an editor. I was still very much on a very over, you know what? I guess I would say like, oh, I was gonna say Overhead, broad bird's eye.I was like, no, I'm gonna go make movies and then I'll direct ‘em and onward, but work, you know, worked in post houses, overnights, all that stuff and PA and try made my own crappy movies and you know, did a lot of that stuff and. It kept coming back to edit. I mean, I kept coming back to like assistant jobs and cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting, and it just felt like something that I had a skill for, but I didn't know what my voice was in that.Like I didn't, it took me a long time to realize I could have a voice as an editor, which was so dumb, and I think I wasted so much time thinking that like I was only search, you know, like that. I didn't have that to bring. That editing was just about. Taking someone else's vision. You know, I'm not a set of hands like I'm an artist as well.I think we all are as editors and I was very grateful that not, not too long into, you know, when I found the doc path and I went, okay, I think this is where I, I can rock this and I'm pretty excited about it. I ended up working with a small collection of directors who all. Respected that collaboration.Like they were excited for what I do and what I bring to it and felt, it made me feel like we were peers working together, which was my fantasy with how film works. And I feel like isn't always the constant, but I've been spoiled and now it's what I expect and what I want to create for others. And you know, I hope there's more of us out there.So it's interesting because my path to editing. Was like such a, a practical one and an emotional one, and an ego one, and a, you know, it's like, it's like all these things that have led me to where I am and the perfect neighbor is such a culmination of all of that. For sure.BEN: Yeah. And, and I want to get into it, uh, first the eternal question.Yeah. Film school worth it or not worth it?VIRI: I mean, listen, I. We'll share this. I think I've shared this before, but relevant to the fact I'll share it because I think we can all learn from each other's stories. I did not want to go to college. Okay? I wanted to go straight to la. I was like, I'm going to Hollywood.I wanted to make movies ever since I was a kid. This is what I'm gonna do, period. I come from a family of teachers. All of my parents are teachers. My parents divorced. I have my stepparent is teacher, like everybody's a teacher. And they were like, no. And not just a teacher. My mom and my dad are college professors, so they were like college, college, college.I sabotaged my SATs. I did not take them. I did not want to go to college. I was like, I am going to Los Angeles. Anyways, uh, my parents applied for me. To an accredited arts college that, and they were like, it's a three year try semester. You'll shoot on film, you can do your, you know, and they submitted my work from high school when I was in TV production or whatever.Anyways, they got me into this little college, and when I look back, I know that that experience was really incredible. I mean, while I was there, I was counting the days to leave, but I know that it gave me not only the foundation of. You know, learning, like, I mean, we were learning film at the time. I don't know what it's like now, but like we, you know, I learned all the different mediums, which was great on a vocational level, you know, but on top of that, they're just throwing cans of film at us and we're making all the mistakes we need to make to get where we need to get.And the other thing that's happening is there's also like the liberal arts, this is really, sounds like a teacher's kid, what I'm about to say. But like, there's also just the level of education To be smarter and learn more about the world, to inform your work doesn't mean that you can't. You can't skip college and just go out there and find your, and learn what you wanna learn in the stories that you journey out to tell.So I feel really torn on this answer because half of me is like. No, you don't need college. Like just go out and make stuff and learn what you wanna learn. And then the other half of me have to acknowledge that, like, I think there was a foundation built in that experience, in that transitional time of like semi-structure, semi independence, you know, like all the things that come with college.It's worth it, but it's expensive as heck. And I certainly, by the time I graduated, film wasn't even a thing and I had to learn digital out in the world. And. I think you can work on a film set and learn a hell of a lot more than you'll ever learn in a classroom. And at the same time, I really love learning.So, you know, my, I think I, my parents were right, they know it ‘cause I went back to grad school, so that was a shock for them. But I think, but yeah, so I, I get, what I would say is, it really is case, this is such a cop out of an answer, case by case basis. Ask yourself, you know, if you need that time and if you, if you aren't gonna go.You need to put in the work. You have to really like go out, go on those sets, work your tail off, seek out the books, read the stuff, you know, and no one's gonna hand you anything. And my stories are a hell of a lot, I think smarter and eloquent because of the education I had. Yeah.BEN: So you shuttle on, what was the school, by the way?VIRI: Well, it was called the, it was called the International Fine Arts College. It no longer exists because Art Institute bought it. It's now called the Miami International University of Art and Design, and they bought it the year I graduated. So I went to this tiny little arts college, uh, but graduated from this AI university, which my parents were like, okay.Um, but we were, it was a tiny little college owned by this man who would invite all of us over to his mansion for brunch every year. I mean, it was very strange, but cool. And it was mainly known for, I think fashion design and interior design. So the film kids, we all kind of had, it was an urban campus in Miami and we were all like kind of in a wado building on the side, and it was just kind of a really funky, misfit feeling thing that I thought was, now when I look back, I think was like super cool.I mean, they threw cans of film at us from the very first semester. There was no like, okay, be here for two years and earn your opportunity. We were making stuff right away and all of our teachers. All of our professors were people who were working in the field, like they were ones who were, you know, writing.They had written films and fun fact of the day, my, my cinematography professor was Sam Beam from Iron and Wine. If anybody knows Iron and Wine, like there's like, there's like we, we had crazy teachers that we now realize were people who were just probably trying to pay their bills while they were on their journey, and then they broke out and did their thing after we were done.BEN: Okay, so shooting on film. Yeah. What, um, was it 16 or 35? 16. And then how are you doing sound? No, notVIRI: 35, 16. Yeah. I mean, we had sound on Dax, you know, like we were recording all the mm-hmm. Oh, when we did the film. Yeah, yeah. Separate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did the Yeah. Syncs soundBEN: into a We did a,VIRI: yeah, we did, we did one.We shot on a Bolex, I think, if I remember it right. It did like a tiny, that probably was eight, you know? But the point is we did that on. The flatbed. After that, we would digitize and we would cut on media 100, which was like this. It was, I think it was called the, I'm pretty sure it was called Media 100.It was like this before avid, you know. A more archaic editing digital program that, so we did the one, the one cut and splice version of our, our tiny little films. And then we weren't on kind of beautiful steam backs or anything. It was like, you know, it was much, yeah, smaller. But we had, but you know, we raced in the changing tents and we did, you know, we did a lot of film, love and fun.And I will tell you for your own amusement that we were on set once with somebody making their short. The girl at the AC just grabbed, grabbed the film, what's, oh my God, I can't even believe I'm forgetting the name of it. But, um, whatever the top of the camera grabbed it and thought she had unlocked it, like unhinged it and just pulled it out after all the film just come spooling out on set.And we were like, everybody just froze and we were just standing there. It was like a bad sketch comedy, like we're all just standing there in silence with like, just like rolling out of the camera. I, I'll never forget it.BEN: Nightmare. Nightmare. I, you know, you said something earlier about when you're shooting your own stuff.Being an editor is a little bit of a superpower because you know, oh, I'm gonna need this, I'm gonna need that. And, and for me it's similar. It's especially similar. Like, oh, we didn't get this. I need to get an insert of this ‘cause I know I'm probably gonna want that. I also feel like, you know, I came up, um, to instill photography, 35 millimeter photography, and then when I got into filmmaking it was, um, digital, uh, mini DV tape.So, but I feel like the, um, the structure of having this, you know, you only have 36 shots in a still camera, so you've gotta be sure that that carried over even to my shooting on digital, of being meticulous about setting up the shot, knowing what I need. Whereas, you know, younger people who have just been shooting digital their whole lives that just shoot everything and we'll figure it out later.Yeah. Do do you, do you feel you had that Advant an advantage? Yes. Or sitting on film gave you some advantages?VIRI: I totally, yes. I also am a firm believer and lover of intention. Like I don't this whole, like we could just snap a shot and then punch in and we'll, whatever. Like it was my worst nightmare when people started talking about.We'll shoot scenes and something, it was like eight K, so we can navigate the frame. And I was like, wait, you're not gonna move the camera again. Like, it just, it was terrifying. So, and we passed that, but now the AI stuff is getting dicey, but the, I think that you. I, I am pretty romantic about the hands-on, I like books with paper, you know, like, I like the can, the cinematographer to capture, even if it's digital.And those benefits of the digital for me is like, yes, letting it roll, but it's not about cheating frames, you know, like it's about, it's about the accessibility of being able to capture things longer, or the technology to move smoother. These are good things. But it's not about, you know, simplifying the frame in something that we need to, that is still an art form.Like that's a craft. That's a craft. And you could argue that what we choose, you know, photographers, the choice they make in Photoshop is the new version of that is very different. Like my friends who are dps, you know, there's always like glasses the game, right? The lenses are the game. It's like, it's not about filters In posts, that was always our nightmare, right?The old fix it and post everybody's got their version of their comic strip that says Fix it and post with everything exploding. It's like, no, that's not what this is about. And so, I mean, I, I think I'll always be. Trying to, in my brain fight the good fight for the craftiness of it all because I'm so in love with everything.I miss film. I'm sad. I miss that time. I mean, I think I, it still exists and hopefully someday I'll have the opportunity that somebody will fund something that I'm a part of that is film. And at the same time there's somewhere in between that still feels like it's honoring that freshness. And, and then now there's like the, yeah, the new generation.It's, you know, my kids don't understand that I have like. Hand them a disposable camera. We'll get them sometimes for fun and they will also like click away. I mean, the good thing you have to wind it so they can't, they can't ruin it right away, but they'll kind of can't fathom that idea. And um, and I love that, where you're like, we only get 24 shots.Yeah, it's veryBEN: cool. So you said you felt the perfect neighbor, kind of, that was the culmination of all your different skills in the craft of editing. Can you talk a little bit about that?VIRI: Yes. I think that I spent, I think all the films, it's like every film that I've had the privilege of being a part of, I have taken something like, there's like some tool that was added to the tool belt.Maybe it had to do with like structure or style or a specific build to a quote or, or a device or a mechanism in the film, whatever it is. It was the why of why that felt right. That would kind of be the tool in the tool belt. It wouldn't just be like, oh, I learned how to use this new toy. It was like, no, no.There's some kind of storytelling, experience, technique, emotion that I felt that Now I'm like, okay, how do I add that in to everything I do? And I want every film to feel specific and serve what it's doing. But I think a lot of that sent me in a direction of really always approaching a project. Trying to meet it for like the, the work that only it can do.You know, it's like, it's not about comps. It's not about saying like, oh, we're making a film that's like, fill in the blank. I'm like, how do we plug and play the elements we have into that? It's like, no, what are the elements we have and how do we work with them? And that's something I fought for a lot on all the films I've been a part of.Um, and by that I mean fight for it. I just mean reminding everybody always in the room that we can trust the audience, you know, that we can. That, that we should follow the materials what, and work with what we have first, and then figure out what could be missing and not kind of IME immediately project what we think it needs to be, or it should be.It's like, no, let's discover what it is and then that way we will we'll appreciate. Not only what we're doing in the process, but ultimately we don't even realize what it can do for what it is if we've never seen it before, which is thrilling. And a lot of those have been a part of, there have been pockets of being able to do that.And then usually near the end there's a little bit of math thing that happens. You know, folks come in the room and they're trying to, you know, but what if, and then, but other people did. Okay, so all you get these notes and you kind of reel it in a little bit and you find a delicate balance with the perfect neighbor.When Gita came to me and we realized, you know, we made that in a vacuum like that was we, we made that film independently. Very little money, like tiny, tiny little family of the crew. It was just me and her, you know, like when we were kind of cutting it together and then, and then there's obviously producers to kind of help and build that platform and, and give great feedback along the way.But it allowed us to take huge creative risks in a really exciting way. And I hate that I even have to use the word risks because it sounds like, but, but I do, because I think that the industry is pushing against, you know, sometimes the spec specificity of things, uh, in fear of. Not knowing how it will be received.And I fantasize about all of us being able to just watch something and seeing how we feel about it and not kind of needing to know what it is before we see it. So, okay, here comes the perfect neighbor. GTA says to me early on, like, I think. I think it can be told through all these materials, and I was like, it will be told through like I was determined and I held us very strict to it.I mean, as we kind of developed the story and hit some challenges, it was like, this is the fun. Let's problem solve this. Let's figure out what it means. But that also came within the container of all this to kind of trust the audience stuff that I've been trying to repeat to myself as a mantra so I don't fall into the trappings that I'm watching so much work do.With this one, we knew it was gonna be this raw approach and by composing it completely of the evidence, it would ideally be this kind of undeniable way to tell the story, which I realized was only possible because of the wealth of material we had for this tracked so much time that, you know, took the journey.It did, but at the same time, honoring that that's all we needed to make it happen. So all those tools, I think it was like. A mixed bag of things that I found that were effective, things that I've been frustrated by in my process. Things that I felt radical about with, you know, that I've been like trying to scream in, into the void and nobody's listening.You know, it's like all of that because I, you know, I think I've said this many times. The perfect neighbor was not my full-time job. I was on another film that couldn't have been more different. So I think in a, in a real deep seated, subconscious way, it was in conversation with that. Me trying to go as far away from that as possible and in understanding what could be possible, um, with this film.So yeah, it's, it's interesting. It's like all the tools from the films, but it was also like where I was in my life, what had happened to me, you know, and all of those. And by that I mean in a process level, you know, working in film, uh, and that and yes, and the values and ethics that I honor and wanna stick to and protect in the.Personal lens and all of that. So I think, I think it, it, it was a culmination of many things, but in that approach that people feel that has resonated that I'm most proud of, you know, and what I brought to the film, I think that that is definitely, like, I don't think I could have cut this film the way I did at any other time before, you know, I think I needed all of those experiences to get here.BEN: Oh, there's so much there and, and there's something kind of the. The first part of what you were saying, I've had this experience, I'm curious if you've had this experience. I sort of try to prepare filmmakers to be open to this, that when you're working with something, especially Doc, I think Yeah. More so Doc, at a certain point the project is gonna start telling you what it wants to be if you, if you're open to it.Yes. Um, but it's such a. Sometimes I call it the spooky process. Like it's such a ephemeral thing to say, right? Like, ‘cause you know, the other half of editing is just very technical. Um, but this is like, there's, there's this thing that's gonna happen where it's gonna start talking to you. Do you have that experience?VIRI: Yes. Oh, yes. I've also been a part of films that, you know, they set it out to make it about one person. And once we watched all the footage, it is about somebody else. I mean, there's, you know, those things where you kind of have to meet the spooky part, you know, in, in kind of honoring that concept that you're bringing up is really that when a film is done, I can't remember cutting it.Like, I don't, I mean, I remember it and I remember if you ask me why I did something, I'll tell you. I mean, I'm very, I am super. Precious to a fault about an obsessive. So like you could pause any film I've been a part of and I'll tell you exactly why I used that shot and what, you know, I can do that. But the instinct to like just grab and go when I'm just cutting and I'm flowing.Yeah, that's from something else. I don't know what that is. I mean, I don't. People tell me that I'm very fast, which is, I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, but I think it really comes from knowing that the job is to make choices and you can always go back and try different things, but this choose your own adventure novel is like just going, and I kind of always laugh about when I look back and I'm like, whoa, have that happen.Like, you know, like I don't even. And I have my own versions of imposter syndrome where I refill mens and I'm like, oh, got away with that one. Um, or every time a new project begins, I'm like, do I have any magic left in the tank? Um, but, but trusting the process, you know, to what you're socking about is a really important way to free yourself and the film to.Discover what it is. I think nowadays because of the algorithm and the, you know, I mean, it's changing right now, so we'll see where, how it recalibrates. But for a, for a while, over these past years, the expectations have, it's like shifted where they come before the film is like, it's like you create your decks and your sizzles and you write out your movie and you, and there is no time for discovery.And when it happens. It's like undeniable that you needed to break it because it's like you keep hitting the same impasse and you can't solve it and then you're like, oh, that's because we have to step outta the map. But I fear that many works have suffered, you know, that they have like followed the map and missed an opportunity.And so, you know, and for me as an editor, it's always kinda a red flag when someone's like, and here's the written edit. I'm like, what? Now let's watch the footage. I wanna know where There's always intention when you set up, but as people always say, the edit is kind of the last. The last step of the storytelling process.‘cause so much can change there. So there is, you know, there it will reveal itself. I do get nerdy about that. I think a film knows what it is. I remember when I was shooting my first film called Born to Play, that film, we were. At the championship, you know, the team was not, thought that they were gonna win the whole thing.We're at the championship and someone leaned over to me and they said, you know, it's funny when a story knows it's being filmed. And I was like, ah. I think about that all the time because now I think about that in the edit bay. I'm like, okay, you tell me, you know, what do you wanna do? And then you kind of like, you match frame back to something and all of a sudden you've opened a portal and you're in like a whole new theme.It's very cool. You put, you know, you put down a different. A different music temp, music track, and all of a sudden you're making a new movie. I mean, it's incredible. It's like, it really is real world magic. It's so much fun. Yeah,BEN: it is. It's a blast. The, so, uh, I saw you at the panel at Doc NYC and then I went that night or the next night and watched Perfect Neighbor blew me away, and you said something on the panel that then blew me away again when I thought about it, which is.I think, correct me if I'm wrong, all of the audio is syncedVIRI: Yeah. To the footage.BEN: That, to me is the big, huge, courageous decision you made.VIRI: I feel like I haven't said that enough. I don't know if folks understand, and it's mainly for the edit of that night, like the, I mean, it's all, it's, it's all that, but it was important.That the, that the sound would be synced to the shock that you're seeing. So when you're hearing a cop, you know, a police officer say, medics, we need medics. If we're in a dashboard cam, that's when it was, you know, echoing from the dashboard. Like that's what, so anything you're hearing is synced. When you hear something coming off from the per when they're walking by and you hear someone yelling something, you know, it's like all of that.I mean, that was me getting really strict about the idea that we were presenting this footage for what it was, you know, that it was the evidence that you are watching, as you know, for lack of a better term, unbiased, objectively as possible. You know, we're presenting this for what it is. I, of course, I have to cut down these calls.I am making choices like that. That is happening. We are, we are. Composing a narrative, you know, there, uh, that stuff is happening. But to create, but to know that what you're hearing, I'm not applying a different value to the frame on, on a very practical syn sound way. You know, it's like I'm not gonna reappropriate frames.Of course, in the grand scheme of the narrative flow with the emotions, you know, the genre play of this horror type film, and there's a lot happening, but anything you were hearing, you know, came from that frame. Yeah.BEN: That's amazing. How did you organize the footage and the files initially?VIRI: Well, Gita always likes to laugh ‘cause she is, she calls herself my first ae, which is true.I had no a, you know, I had, she was, she had gotten all that material, you know, she didn't get that material to make a film. They had originally, this is a family friend who died and when this all happened, they went down and gathered this material to make a case, to make sure that Susan didn't get out. To make sure this was not forgotten.You know, to be able to utilize. Protect the family. And so there was, at first it was kind of just gathering that. And then once she got it, she realized that it spanned two years, you know, I mean, she, she popped, she was an editor for many, many years, an incredible editor. She popped it into a system, strung it all out, sunk up a lot of it to see what was there, and realized like, there's something here.And that's when she called me. So she had organized it, you know, by date, you know, and that, that originally. Strung out a lot of it. And then, so when I came in, it was just kind of like this giant collection of stuff, like folders with the nine one calls. How long was the strung out? Well, I didn't know this.Well, I mean, we have about 30 hours of content. It wasn't one string out, you know, it was like there were the call, all the calls, and then the 9 1 1 calls, the dash cams. The ring cams. Okay. Excuse me. The canvassing interviews, audio only content. So many, many. Was about 30 hours of content, which honestly, as most of us editors know, is not actually a lot I've cut.You know, it's usually, we have tons more than that. I mean, I, I've cut decades worth of material and thousands of hours, you know, but 30 hours of this type of material is very specific, you know, that's a, that's its own challenge. So, so yeah. So the first, so it was organized. It was just organized by call.Interview, you know, some naming conventions in there. Some things we had to sync up. You know, the 9 1 1 calls would overlap. You could hear it in the nine one one call center. You would hear someone, one person who called in, and then you'd hear in the background, like the conversation of another call. It's in the film.There's one moment where you can hear they're going as fast as they can, like from over, from a different. So there was so much overlap. So there was some syncing that we kind of had to do by ear, by signals, by, you know, and there's some time coding on the, on the cameras, but that would go off, which was strange.They weren't always perfect. So, but that, that challenge unto itself would help us kind of really screen the footage to a finite detail, right. To like, have, to really understand where everybody is and what they're doing when,BEN: yeah. You talked about kind of at the end, you know, different people come in, there's, you know, maybe you need to reach a certain length or so on and so forth.How do you, um, handle notes? What's your advice to young filmmakers as far as navigating that process? Great question.VIRI: I am someone who, when I was a kid, I had trouble with authority. I wasn't like a total rebel. I think I was like a really goody goody too. She was borderline. I mean, I had my moments, but growing up in, in a journey, an artistic journey that requires you to kind of fall in love with getting critiques and honing things and working in teams.And I had some growing pains for a long time with notes. I mean, my impulse was always, no. A note would come and I'd go, no, excuse me. Go to bed, wake up. And then I would find my way in and that would be great. That bed marinating time has now gone away, thank goodness. And I have realized that. Not all notes, but some notes have really changed the trajectory of a project in the most powerful waves.And it doesn't always the, to me, what I always like to tell folks is it's, the notes aren't really the issues. It's what? It's the solutions people offer. You know? It's like you can bring up what you're having an issue with. It's when people kind of are like, you know what I would do? Or you know what you think you should do, or you could do this.You're like, you don't have to listen to that stuff. I mean, you can. You can if you have the power to filter it. Some of us do, some of us don't. I've worked with people who. Take all the notes. Notes and I have to, we have to, I kind of have to help filter and then I've worked with people who can very quickly go need that, don't need that need, that, don't need that.Hear that, don't know how to deal with that yet. You know, like if, like, we can kind of go through it. So one piece of advice I would say is number one, you don't have to take all the notes and that's, that's, that's an honoring my little veary. Wants to stand by the vision, you know, and and fight for instincts.Okay. But the second thing is the old classic. It's the note behind the note. It's really trying to understand where that note's coming from. Who gave it what they're looking for? You know, like is that, is it a preference note or is it a fact? You know, like is it something that's really structurally a problem?Is it something that's really about that moment in the film? Or is it because of all the events that led to that moment that it's not doing the work you think it should? You know, the, the value is a complete piece. So what I really love about notes now is I get excited for the feedback and then I get really excited about trying to decipher.What they mean, not just taking them as like my to-do list. That's not, you know, that's not the best way to approach it. It's really to get excited about getting to actually hear feedback from an audience member. Now, don't get me wrong, an audience member is usually. A producer in the beginning, and they have, they may have their own agenda, and that's something to know too.And maybe their agenda can influence the film in an important direction for the work that they and we all wanted to do. Or it can help at least discern where their notes are coming from. And then we can find our own emotional or higher level way to get into solving that note. But, you know, there's still, I still get notes that make me mad.I still get notes where I get sad that I don't think anybody was really. Watching it or understanding it, you know, there's always a thought, you know, that happens too. And to be able to read those notes and still find that like one kernel in there, or be able to read them and say, no kernels. But, but, but by doing that, you're now creating the conviction of what you're doing, right?Like what to do and what not to do. Carrie, equal value, you know, so you can read all these notes and go, oh, okay, so I am doing this niche thing, but I believe in it and. And I'm gonna stand by it. Or like, this one person got it and these five didn't. And I know that the rules should be like majority rules, but that one person, I wanna figure out why they got it so that I can try to get these, you know, you get what I'm saying?So I, I've grown, it took a long time for me to get where I am and I still have moments where I'm bracing, you know, where I like to scroll to see how many notes there are before I even read them. You know, like dumb things that I feel like such a kid about. But we're human. You know, we're so vulnerable.Doing this work is you're so naked and you're trying and you get so excited. And I fall in love with everything. I edit so furiously and at every stage of the process, like my first cut, I'm like, this is the movie. Like I love this so much. And then, you know, by the 10th root polling experience. I'm like, this is the movie.I love it so much. You know, so it's, it's painful, but at the same time it's like highly liberating and I've gotten a lot more flowy with it, which was needed. I would, I would encourage everybody to learn how to really enjoy being malleable with it, because that's when you find the sweet spot. It's actually not like knowing everything right away, exactly what it's supposed to be.It's like being able to know what the heart of it is. And then get really excited about how collaborative what we do is. And, and then you do things you would've never imagined. You would've never imagined, um, or you couldn't have done alone, you know, which is really cool. ‘cause then you get to learn a lot more about yourself.BEN: Yeah. And I think what you said of sort of being able to separate the idea of, okay, something maybe isn't clicking there, versus whatever solution this person's offering. Nine times outta 10 is not gonna be helpful, but, but the first part is very helpful that maybe I'm missing something or maybe what I want to connect is not connecting.VIRI: And don't take it personally. Yeah. Don't ever take it personally. I, I think that's something that like, we're all here to try to make the best movie we can.BEN: Exactly.VIRI: You know? Yeah. And I'm not gonna pretend there aren't a couple sticklers out there, like there's a couple little wrenches in the engine, but, but we will, we all know who they are when we're on the project, and we will bind together to protect from that.But at the same time, yeah, it's, yeah. You get it, you get it. Yeah. But it's really, it's an important part of our process and I, it took me a while to learn that.BEN: Last question. So you talked about kind of getting to this cut and this cut and this cut. One of the most important parts of editing, I think is especially when, when you've been working on a project for a long time, is being able to try and see it with fresh eyes.And of course the, one of the ways to do that is to just leave it alone for three weeks or a month or however long and then come back to it. But sometimes we don't have that luxury. I remember Walter Merch reading in his book that sometimes he would run the film upside down just to, mm-hmm. You know, re re redo it the way his brain is watching it.Do you have any tips and tricks for seeing a cut with fresh eyes? OhVIRI: yeah. I mean, I mean, other than stepping away from it, of course we all, you know, with this film in particular, I was able to do that because I was doing other films too. But I, one good one I always love is take all the music out. Just watch the film without music.It's really a fascinating thing. I also really like quiet films, so like I tend to all of a sudden realize like, what is absolutely necessary with the music, but, but it, it really, people get reliant on it, um, to do the work. And you'd be pleasantly surprised that it can inform and reinvent a scene to kind of watch it without, and you can, it's not about taking it out forever, it's just the exercise of watching what the film is actually doing in its raw form, which is great.Switching that out. I mean, I can, you know, there's other, washing it upside down, I feel like. Yeah, I mean like there's a lot of tricks we can trick our trick, our brain. You can do, you could also, I. I think, I mean, I've had times where I've watched things out of order, I guess. Like where I kind of like go and I watch the end and then I click to the middle and then I go back to the top, you know?And I'm seeing, like, I'm trying to see if they're all connecting, like, because I'm really obsessed with how things begin and how they end. I think the middle is highly important, but it really, s**t tells you, what are we doing here? Like what are we set up and where are we ending? And then like, what is the most effective.Journey to get there. And so there is a way of also kind of trying to pinpoint the pillars of the film and just watching those moments and not kind, and then kind of reverse engineering the whole piece back out. Yeah, those are a couple of tricks, but more than anything, it's sometimes just to go watch something else.If you can't step away from the project for a couple of weeks, maybe watch something, you could, I mean, you can watch something comparable in a way. That tonally or thematically feels in conversation with it to just kind of then come back and feel like there's a conversation happening between your piece and that piece.The other thing you could do is watch something so. Far different, right? Like, even if you like, don't like, I don't know what I'm suggesting, you'd have to, it would bend on the project, but there's another world where like you're like, all right, I'm gonna go off and watch some kind of crazy thrill ride and then come back to my slow burn portrait, you know, and, and just, just to fresh the pal a little bit, you know?I was like that. It's like fueling the tanks. We should be watching a lot of stuff anyways, but. That can happen too, so you don't, you also get to click off for a second because I think we can get, sometimes it's really good to stay in it at all times, but sometimes you can lose the force for the, you can't see it anymore.You're in the weeds. You're too close to it. So how do we kind of shake it loose? Feedback sessions, by the way, are a part, is a part of that because I think that when you sit in the back of the room and you watch other people watch the film, you're forced to watch it as another person. It's like the whole thing.So, and I, I tend to watch people's body language more than, I'm not watching the film. I'm like watching for when people shift. Yeah, yeah. I'm watching when people are like coughing or, you know, or when they, yeah. Whatever. You get it. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, soBEN: that is the most helpful part for me is at a certain point I'll bring in a couple friends and I'll just say, just want you to watch this, and I'm gonna ask you a couple questions afterwards.But 95% of what I need is just sitting there. Watching them and you said exactly. Watching their body language.VIRI: Yeah. Oh man. I mean, this was shoulder, shoulder shooks. There's, and you can tell the difference, you can tell the difference between someone's in an uncomfortable chair and someone's like, it's like whenever you can sense it if you're ever in a theater and you can start to sense, like when they, when they reset the day, like whenever we can all, we all kind of as a community are like, oh, this is my moment.To like get comfortable and go get a bite of popcorn. It's like there's tells, so some of those are intentional and then some are not. Right? I mean, if this is, it goes deeper than the, will they laugh at this or will they be scared at this moment? It really is about captivating them and feeling like when you've, when you've lost it,BEN: for sure.Yeah. Very. This has been fantastic. Oh my God, how fun.VIRI: I talked about things here with you that I've haven't talked, I mean, contact so deeply, but even film school, I feel like I don't know if that's out there anywhere. So that was fun. Thank you.BEN: Love it. Love it. That, that that's, you know, that's what I hope for these interviews that we get to things that, that haven't been talked about in other places.And I always love to just go in, you know, wherever the trail leads in this case. Yeah. With, uh, with Jody Foster and Math McConaughey and, uh, I mean, go see it. Everybody met this. Yeah. Uh, and for people who are interested in your work, where can they find you?VIRI: I mean, I don't update my website enough. I just go to IMDB.Look me up on IMDB. All my work is there. I think, you know, in a list, I've worked on a lot of films that are on HBO and I've worked on a lot of films and now, you know, obviously the perfect neighbor's on Netflix right now, it's having an incredible moment where I think the world is engaging with it. In powerful ways beyond our dreams.So if you watch it now, I bet everybody can kind of have really fascinating conversations, but my work is all out, you know, the sports stuff born to play. I think it's on peacock right now. I mean, I feel like, yeah, I love the scope that I've had the privilege of working on, and I hope it keeps growing. Who knows.Maybe I'll make my space movie someday. We'll see. But in the meantime, yeah, head over and see this, the list of credits and anything that anybody watches, I love to engage about. So they're all, I feel that they're all doing veryBEN: different work. I love it. Thank you so much.VIRI: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking with Barry Adkins after losing his 18-year-old son, Kevin, to alcohol poisoning. Barry saw that he had two choices. He could curl up in the corner and allow himself to become a victim, or he could get out and tell as many people as possible about what happened to his son, Kevin. Barry chose the latter in an effort to raise awareness of the dangers of binge drinking. Barry set out on an Epic 1400 mile journey on foot from Arizona to Montana. His son’s ashes in his backpack, stopping at numerous schools, churches in treatment facilities along the way to share his story. Larry’s presentation describes in powerful detail the night his son died.[00:01:00] The quiet morning that he got the knock on the door and how he came up with the idea to walk from Arizona to Montana.Barry’s message is both powerful inspiration and a warning about the consequences of even one night of binge drinking. Barry has shared his story with over 200,000 students and parents. He has been a featured speaker at numerous high schools, community events, and town hall meetings. Barry has also been featured in numerous media outlets, including Reader’s Digest, the Dr. Gina Show and the Leon Fonte Show. Please join me in welcoming Barry. Hi Barry. Barry: Oh, thanks for having me on. Gissele Gissele: Ah, thank you for being on the show. I was wondering if you could share with the audience a little bit about the story of your son’s passing and how that led you to actually decide to become this powerful messenger on the dangers of pitch drinking. Barry: Well, Gissele, I probably should start by kind of telling you, you know, what led up to that. [00:02:00] Yeah, let’s start with that. So he had just graduated from high school. He struggled in high school. He was actually flunking his English class in March of his senior year in high school. And he needed it for graduation, right? Mm-hmm. And I would always talk to him about it and, you know, he would tell me to quit bothering him about it. He’d take care of it. But at the end of the day, he did graduate, and I remember at his high school graduation ceremony, he gave me a hug and whispered, thanks for not giving up on me, dad. Gissele: Hmm. Barry: And shortly thereafter suffice to say he saved up enough money and I agree to co-sign a loan so he could buy a new truck. And if you have listeners that work at dealerships, I apologize, but I have a healthy dislike for that process, right? Mm-hmm. Because they’re gonna try to sell me something I don’t want or need. He found one of the dealerships, so I gotta go in and sign papers, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. I Barry: sit down in the, the dealerships. You know, in their [00:03:00] office, and the first thing this guy says to me is, how about some life insurance? And I’m like, 18-year-old boys don’t need life insurance. They don’t die. But I was wrong. They do die. He wouldn’t live long enough to make a single payment on that truck. So a few weeks later. I remember him sitting down in our living room and talking about how he couldn’t believe his life was finally beginning and he wanted to move out, and I did my best to discourage him because we honestly never really had any problems with him. His high school principal didn’t even know who he was. I didn’t have any luck talking out of it. So a couple weeks later, his buddy Craig came over and they started moving him out. You know, he’s 18 years old. His definition of moving out was throwing a bed, a tv, and a dresser in the back of his truck. Mm-hmm. I remember him coming back in and he came into the living room and he said something I’ll never forget. He said he wasn’t [00:04:00] gonna take his toothbrush with him. He’d be back tomorrow and grab it. I walked out front with him like I normally do, gave him a hug, told him that, be careful, and I loved him and watched him drive away. It was the last time I saw him alive that night. His friends decided to throw a house warming party for him. Started with a keg of beer and moved on to shots. He left a voicemail for his sister that night talking about how much fun they were having and how drunk he was. After he left that voicemail, he passed out his friends laid him in his bed on his side in case he vomited, but the party was still going on. They actually went in and shaved his head and his legs while he was passed out because he’s just passed out, right? Gissele: Yeah. But Barry: his buddy Craig, was worried about him, kept going back into check on him around 4:00 AM calls started coming into 9 1 1. First calls were difficulty [00:05:00] breathing. Next calls. Not breathing. My son died alone in a hospital. Well, I slept peacefully in my bed. The next morning was Sunday morning. My wife and I are sitting around talking about what we’re not gonna do that day or do that day. Eight 30 in the morning. The doorbell rings. And we’re looking at each other because we weren’t expecting company. And I open the door and I see two police officers and somebody in plain clothes at my front door. Should have been a big red flag, right? It should have been, but I’m that guy. It didn’t even occur to me, Gissele, that something bad had happened. I actually joked with them as they came in thinking this had to have something to do with a dog or a parked car, but they didn’t laugh at any of my jokes. One of the officers in the plain clothes stayed at the front door. The other officer walked in and stood in front of the chair that Kevin had sat in [00:06:00] two weeks before and talked about how his life was finally beginning. He said There had been an accident and your son is dead. We asked who, because we have a number of children, they said it was Kevin and they handed me his driver’s license. Yeah, there is something pretty final about it when a police officer hands you your child’s driver’s license because until that exact moment in time, you’re holding out hope that this is all a big mistake. You’ve misspelled the last name, but once they hand you, your child’s driver’s license, you know he is gone and he is never coming back. Gissele: That must have been so devastating. Barry: Yeah, people say it’s impossible to know what it feels like to lose a child, and they’re right until it happens to [00:07:00] you. It’s a life changing event. There’s no two ways about that. Mm-hmm. Gissele: And so what was the journey between hearing that your son had died to one, you had determined to spread the message to save the lives of other young people. Barry: Well, I’ll tell you a little bit about the process. Honestly, I was angry with God and I told him so I simply didn’t understand why a kind God would. You know, let my son die. And I tried to bargain with him and said, Hey, back up time, you’re God, take me, let him live. And I don’t think, as a parent, I’m unusual. That’s not, I don’t think that would be an unusual thought for anybody. Right? Gissele: No. Barry: But a couple days later, I had another life changing event. This is a little bit difficult for me to describe, but I’ll do my best. I was [00:08:00] laying in bed, it was about four o’clock in the morning and I was awake, and I just had this sense that someone had just came in the room, you know? Yeah. You have that feeling. Did somebody just walk in behind me or something? And then there was a light. A light I’ve never seen before and I haven’t seen since, and there was a message, and the message was that he didn’t suffer. And something very good would come from this. And I didn’t get a chance to say anything. it’s not words you hear, it’s just things, you know. I, it’s really Gissele: mm-hmm. Barry: I’m not a seance guy or anything like that. I just, that’s what happened. And I’m not here to tell everybody that that made everything okay. ’cause it didn’t. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But it gave me a mission. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right. And then we had to go pick up his [00:09:00] ashes. I remember going down to pick up his ashes and I walked in, you know, into a funeral home. They’ve got, you know, pictures on the wall and they’re playing music in the background. They take me into an office, sit me down in a big comfortable chair, or the desk in front of me. The funeral director walks in. Sets an urn down in front of me, an urn that held all the remain of the kid that I burped. I changed his diapers. I coached all kinds of different sports. I taught him to shoot a gun, swing, a golf club. All the remains of him were sitting in an urn in front of me. And at that moment I knew one thing, and that was that I didn’t want to be a victim. Because the world doesn’t need any more victims. We’ve got plenty already. The world needs people who take something bad and they make something good come from it. Gissele: This [00:10:00] might be a difficult question, so you can skip it if you want to, but what was your wife’s reaction like? Barry: that’s another part about grief. Right. She has been incredibly supportive of everything. Yeah. Was she terrified when I said I wanted to walk to Montana? Yes, we both were, but I knew. That’s what I wanted to do and. I had a lot of people try to talk me out of it. Gissele, right? Well-meaning people that I think they were afraid I was gonna fail. and you get that right? Yeah. Who do you think you are? Right? That’s a long ways of walk. But I had another guy that I talked to that said something that kind of sealed the deal. I really wasn’t gonna get talked out of it, but he said, well, how do you think you’d feel about it in 10 years if you don’t do it? Gissele: Ooh, perfect. Barry: Was it easy? No. [00:11:00] But I knew it didn’t matter. This was, this was what I needed to do. Gissele: So did you, you plan out the whole trip or was it like you were kind of just allowing yourself to be led where your next destination was? Barry: so the idea for the walk, first of all for those. Older individuals in your audience came from the movie Lonesome Dove. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, has Tommy Lee Jones and Robert Duval. That was Kevin’s favorite movie. I won’t give away the ending of the movie. Mm-hmm. But I will tell you that that’s where the idea came from. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But then you gotta figure out, you know, in the movie somebody did something on horseback, not like this, but something similar. Right. I knew I wasn’t gonna do it on horseback initially. I was gonna walk the Continental divide. But then I knew I wouldn’t be able to do the speaking stuff. Okay. So I’m gonna do the speaking stuff now. I need to get some help. Yeah. And I reached [00:12:00] out to people to sponsor me. I got a lot of. Nah, no thanks. But a nonprofit here in town, notmykid.org I spoke to them and they were in they set up all of the speaking engagements, but you can imagine the logistics around this we’re mm-hmm. Pretty challenging because they said, okay, well you gotta tell me what day you’re gonna be in all these towns. Yeah. So I had to give them a schedule. Of how, you know, how many miles am I gonna walk a week? When do I think I’m gonna be in this town? When do I think I’m gonna be in this town? And we got it figured out. I did. Were you a big walker before? I’ve ran marathons. Oh, okay. But walking was a different thing. one thing to say, I’m gonna go out tomorrow and walk 15 miles, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But it’s the wear and tear mm-hmm. Of every single day. And you can, I kind of [00:13:00] prepared for that by, on the weekends I’d go out and walk, you know, 15 miles each day or 20 miles each day. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: Kind of get a sense of what it was gonna feel like. But it’s. Pretty hard to judge what it’s gonna feel like repetitively. Right? There were ingrown toenails had plantar fasciitis, had knee issues. But I never took a single day off. I ended up walking seven days a week. I found it to be easier to just walk seven days a week. And there’s days I didn’t feel like going, but I always thought, eh, I might feel worse tomorrow. Maybe I better go try. And usually when I got out there I felt better. Gissele: Wow. So how did you find the messaging was received in the conversations that you had with young people because, drinking is kind of part of the culture, if you may. What were some of their comments or questions? [00:14:00] Barry: You know, my messaging has changed a lot through the years. In the beginning, Gissele, I was actually just reading it and I rationalized that, I don’t know if I told you about this before, but I rationalized this by saying, well, Martin Luther King read I Have a Dream Speech. Speaker 2: He read Barry: the whole thing and it was good, right? Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Barry: So I had it written out. But. I had so many places where teachers and principals would come up later and say, I have never seen those kids that quiet ever. And as it evolved, one of the things I started doing was telling the audience, but I’m not here to tell ’em how to live their life. I’m just here to tell you a story. And I really believe for students especially, and everybody, nobody wants to be told how to live their life, right? Who are you to get Speaker 4: up Barry: here? Tell me how to live my life. [00:15:00] I’m just here to tell you a story. And like I said there was some standing ovations in a few of them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But for me, when they’re that quiet you know, something’s going on. Gissele: Definitely. I’m sure I know that you’ve saved some lives Because I don’t know if kids are often educated on like how to drink, how to learn, how much. Alcohol to take? Like had your son had experience with alcohol before or was that really like the first time that he was out? Barry: He, there was a couple times where I suspected it and that, you know, one of the questions I often get asked is, you know, did you ever talk to him about alcohol? I didn’t talk to him much, any of the kids much about alcohol, but I did about drugs because we have an alcoholic in the family. And he always talked about how stupid he was and how he wasn’t ever gonna let that happen to him. You know, so in hindsight, [00:16:00] should I have done more of that? Yeah. and the question comes up, so when do you start talking to your kids about that? And my answer is, whatever you do, don’t wait until it’s too late. Gissele: Yeah. I think conversations about like. Sex, alcohol, drugs, all of that stuff. Ongoing conversations with children are important, and at the same time, we’re doing the best we can as parents, right? We don’t always anticipate, like you said, your son said that he wouldn’t do that sort of thing, right? Like sometimes you can’t anticipate. But as parents, we go back and question ourselves and say, could I have done that differently? Could I have done that better? What role did self-forgiveness have in your ability to undertake this journey? Barry: It was a big part of it, right? One of [00:17:00] the first things we did was agree that we’re not gonna play the blame game, right? I’m not gonna blame anybody at the party. I’m not gonna blame anyone. But, but the forgiveness part of it. Takes a while, especially forgiving yourself. I heard a pastor describe it best once, ’cause forgiveness is one of the things that’s one of my key takeaways is forgiveness. And what I tell everybody is anger and vengeance is only gonna lead to one thing. Destruction, forgiveness, leads to healing, and sometimes the most important person you need to forgive. Yourself. We all make mistakes. It’s the way you handle it. That really matters. ’cause I can’t change the past. I can only change the future. Gissele: Yeah. Barry: And that takes a long time to come to grips with Gissele. Right? That’s, it does. That’s not something the day after you’re, you’re [00:18:00] there. That’s about 19 years in the rear view mirror for me. Gissele: Yeah, definitely because we as parents put so much pressure on ourselves, we feel it’s our responsibility to keep our children safe. Even though your son had left home, there’s still that sense of, responsibility. it can feel definitely overwhelming, especially since like the thought is always, well, we’re gonna pass away before our children do. And so it’s not anything we’re gonna have to manage. They’re gonna have to manage our loss. But when it’s the reverse, you’re like, oh, this is not what I prepared for. And what you’re helping us learn is, is. It’s not about trying to avoid the things in life that causes suffering, but alchemizing the difficult moments into something where it could be a positive out of it. That doesn’t diminish the grief. It just helps us not hurt ourselves because I do [00:19:00] feel like path to grieve and the path to blaming and the path to punishment hurts us as much as it hurts the other people as well. Barry: it a hundred percent does. And one of my other key things for takeaways is about adversity. Yeah. Bad stuff happens to everybody. The way you respond to adversity is gonna define your life. And I’m living proof of that. divorces, whatever, you know, make the list, your boyfriend broke up with you, whatever. All of these things happen. And the way you handle them, they’re gonna define your life. They just are, it’s not the A’s and b’s in school generally. Mm-hmm. Its the way you handle adversity. Gissele: I wanna go back to that instance where you heard the voice say that something positive was gonna come. ’cause I’m sure there was a level of, reassurance did that help you rethink the whole concept of life or death [00:20:00] and whether or not things are final? Barry: You know I’m a Christian and we all believe that God is out there. We have to push the believe button. But when something like this happens you know he’s there. Right. And again, that, you know, you’ve heard people describe it, but I can’t describe that light. Gissele: Yeah. Barry: And I just knew. You know, it was God and it was kind of his voice, but I knew God was part of it and for me it moved. Gissele: You mean like Kevin’s voice? Barry: Yeah. Kind of his you know, because it seemed like he was pretty excited about it. Gissele: Hmm Barry: mm-hmm. Right. And it, it moved it from the theoretical to Oh yeah, he’s really there. He really [00:21:00] is. I mean, sometimes it’s you start to wonder if he’s really there, right? You start to wonder, well, is there really something there? And after this I can say, yeah, there’s life there. Gissele: Yeah, and and what you were saying, it takes it from a theoretical ’cause I think often we think of like God out there and we’re over here and we can feel so separate and so alone. And when you look at the state of the world, you wonder why things are the way that they are. And I think there is sort of a grander. Purpose and a grander picture that sometimes we don’t often see. But I think to have that reassurance, I myself have had a number of spiritual events that make you think, oh wait, here’s an experience to everything that I’ve been reading or wondering about, which makes you question. How final is death? now that doesn’t lessen the loss any less. we are [00:22:00] still in this physical experience where you don’t get to experience your son in the same way. Have you had any other interactions, like through dreams or any other ways where you have been able to connect? Barry: Well, I have no doubt that God was part of this process. And the reason I say that is I’m not the right guy to be doing this. I was never a public speaker. Mm-hmm. I’m a stay at home. I was telling somebody the other day, I had a really good month. ’cause I think I only put 50 miles on my car in a month. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Barry: I’m not that way, but I feel like it’s what He wants me to do. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right. And another interesting thing for me is that. You need to be quiet to really feel [00:23:00] where God might be pushing you. And I remember I I was up in the Bob Marshall wilderness up in, up in Montana, out in the middle of nowhere. I was sitting on top of this mountain with my uncle, and it was just, you know, utter silence. Right. Just. As quiet as it can be. And I turned to him and I whispered, man, it’s quiet up here. And he said, yeah. And it’s got a lot to say. Gissele: Mm mm-hmm. I love that. Barry: Yeah, because you have to understand it. I think we don’t have enough quiet time in our lives. Anymore. We’re just bombarded every single day with stuff. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There’s constant messaging and there’s constant looking on social media, and I think what you’re talking about is really the path inward to be able to address all of the difficult things you were talking about, to deal with grief [00:24:00] and not let it consume you, to deal with forgiveness and allow yourself to open up to that. You have to. Go through the emotions, right? Like you have to have felt the grief. You have to have felt the difficulty in forgiving because the mind immediately goes to, well, who was there, who could have taken care? Why didn’t they check more? And all of those things. Absolutely. Yeah. Barry: was there blame to go around? Yeah. The, the guy at the party was a 28-year-old this house that he moved into. There was a 28-year-old there who was renting the house rooms to 18 year olds. Right. So, you know, it is probably good situation, but was it Mikey’s fault? No. It, this was Kevin’s choice. This was his decision. Yeah. And that’s my third point is the two most important decisions you’re ever gonna make apart from following Jesus are about drugs and alcohol. It isn’t even close. [00:25:00] We all know stories. Right. You just, you need to educate yourselves as if your life and the lives of your kill children depend upon it. Speaker 2: Because Barry: it does, it just does. These are, these are society. We don’t talk a lot about how big this problem is. I googled it recently to find out how big the rehab industry is, and I believe the number was, people can look it up. I think it was around $35 billion a year. Wow. And it’s projected to grow at 5% a year. Gissele: it doesn’t, help. That’s alcohol in particular is, a legal drug, right. And the interesting thing that I observed during the pandemic was in Canada in particular, I don’t know about any other countries how they made alcohol more accessible, but of all the things they could have done during COVID, making alcohol more accessible, made me curious.[00:26:00] I’m like like what is it that you’re promoting or saying? it’s sort of like different departments working on different things. Like you’ve got a public health that tells you, like do things in moderation, take care of your body, eat. Then you’ve got another department that is like making alcohol more accessible. it doesn’t make sense. Barry: It’s a business, right? The alcohol industry is a business and they want to grow their industry and every opportunity they get to do that. Of course they’re gonna do it. Mm. You know do I blame them? No, not really, because it’s every, it’s your choice, right? Mm. It just, Gissele: yeah, for sure. It’s the Barry: education part of it. I think the prevention, you know, as I said, $35 billion a year on rehab. I guarantee you they don’t spend 35 billion a year on prevention. It’s largely onesie, twosie things. it’s a PowerPoint in one class at school. [00:27:00] And, and it takes a lot of different angles to get to kids, to students. You know, am I one part of it? Yeah. Is that the only part? Absolutely not. There are other things that help click with kids. You know, I’m not the only thing, but you know, some kids might click when you start talking about the chemical things that happen. I don’t know. But mm-hmm. There should be a little more, in my opinion, more focus on that prevention part. Gissele: Yeah. Agree. And I think that’s the beauty of the conversations you’re opening up space for. And also the opportunity for parents to not expect the school system or all these other systems to educate kids, right? Like we have conversations with our kids and I, gotta give credit to my husband. I was always one of the, the complete abstinence. We’re not gonna do drugs, we’re not gonna do anything. My husband’s like, well, that’s not realistic. Right? Yeah. Like, so just because you, that’s a choice you made for [00:28:00] yourself years ago. Doesn’t mean that that’s the thing they’re gonna make. The best thing we can do is arm them with information and tell them like, here, and Okay, this is what alcohol feels like in your body. This is what it tastes like. You know, you should pace yourself. Like see what it does to your body. See how long it takes in your body so that you can become familiar. So it’s not a thing that like kids go out in. and want to explore like in large quantities. My husband was telling me when we were having these conversations, as our kids were younger, he would say to me that the ones, the children whose parents oppressed them more like about like, you can’t do this. You can’t do that. Were the ones who probably explored it the most. He said when they were outside, they were the ones who were the binge drinkers. They were the ones, and he saw it and he was like. You know this, this person is hiding it. Whereas his mom, she used to have a drink with her when he came, home from high school. And so he learned how to [00:29:00] maneuver and how it felt in his body. And so he would never like get drunk or pass out or do any of that because he knew, he started to experiment and see, oh, okay, this is how it impacts. I observe other people. And so he started to get familiar with, okay, what it does, what it doesn’t do in my body. And what you’re talking about and the beautiful part about it is increasing their awareness of, okay, what’s my maximum? What’s the dangers? You don’t know? ’cause if you’re just taking shots and drinking, you’re not waiting for your body to process the alcohol, so you don’t know how much you’ve taken. Barry: You know, for me, and you know, nobody ever likes to talk about peer pressure when you’re younger, but mm-hmm. Peer pressure is there. The thing for me, and everybody’s different about this but for me you think, well, I need to impress these. My high school friends, I have one friend [00:30:00] that I still know from high school. I don’t know how many you have that you stay in contact with, but you know, my daughter said, well, I have ’em on Facebook. I said, well, you do, but how many are your friends? Mm-hmm. Oh. Two, three. Yeah. One. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. So you think you need to impress these people and you don’t, and that comes with age. You just start realizing that I don’t really care what they think of me. Gissele: Yeah. Barry: That’s the beauty of it is you get older, Yeah. Gissele: So thank you for raising this. ’cause I think this is really important, sort of the reasons why people take. Substances. Like sometimes people just wanna experiment. Their people are addressing pain, right? If their home life is an issue, or if they have experienced trauma sometimes, and the peer pressure thing I think is so fundamental. I remember this about myself when I was in my teens, I cared so much what people thought about me, and I [00:31:00] thought people were constantly thinking about me, which is not even true. They were only thinking about themselves. And that’s why I tell my kids, when I was in my twenties I thought, oh, all these people are looking at me. All these people are thinking of me And I’m like, they were not, yeah, they didn’t care about me. They were thinking about themselves and what other people were thinking about them. Yeah. And so I think that’s an important thing in terms of what helps young people develop that inner confidence. Remember that inner worthiness, Speaker 2: the worthiness of it. Yeah. Gissele: they don’t need to succumb to peer pressure, they are just enough as they are and to be of their authentic selves. And if you look at the school system, and I’m not complaining about the school system, but we are taught conformity. There is a right answer and wrong answer. Everybody should sit and be quiet. So the kids that struggle the most are the kids who are the most aberrant, right? Who don’t think the same way, who have struggles sitting down all day, because That’s not kids’ natural nature to [00:32:00] sit all day, right? And so what we’re taught to conform to this box and that there is this right answer versus wrong answer and color inside the lines. And so it shifts away from authenticity ’cause the need to belong, the need to fit in, the need to align. And so then later on we’re like, oh yeah, be yourself. Be authentically. well, I don’t know how to do that. I was only taught to conform and belong. Where is the role for the authentic in schools and for the divergence and difference Barry: and, and everybody learns differently. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right? Just so many things there. I barely got outta high school. Speaker 2: Hmm. Barry: I simply didn’t understand the point. Speaker 2: Yeah, Barry: and I, I was only, it was only by the fear of my parents. That I got outta high school. I mean, it turns out, you know, once I went to college and I was paying for it, I got straight A’s, [00:33:00] but I just didn’t see the point. And I’ve realized through the years that everybody matures differently and everybody learns differently because there’s a lot of pressure on kids today to decide, okay, what are you gonna do with your life? What are you gonna be, I didn’t decide, I ended up waiting two or three years before I went to college. Mm-hmm. Because I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Right. And Speaker 2: yeah, and I Barry: think you have to know when you’re 18 years old because you’re 18 years old, and I think adults tend to forget that not everybody matures and in general girls mature before boys, let’s just call it what it is. But you need to give them time. They kind of figure it out. Gissele: absolutely. And I think that’s, a really important conversation. we need to give them time to explore all the things that they’re passionate about, that they really want to [00:34:00] do. Rather than trying to push them into a profession because I don’t know, like I changed my mind a lot. Like first I was gonna be a lawyer, then I ended up in child welfare, and now I’m doing something different. So there’s the opportunity to explore, the opportunity to find out what their real passions are, and to make a decision when you’re 18, 19, about the rest of your life, just doesn’t. make a lot of sense, right? what you’re passionate about now, but with the cost of education, that’s a huge investment you’re making or something you might not end up liking. So it just doesn’t seem to make sense. Right? Barry: Yeah. I think there are tests out there that can I’ve heard of some that can kind of tell you what you’re good at. Speaker 2: Hmm. Which Barry: kind of will help for me. I actually, short story. I actually got my pilot’s license before I got outta high school. Gissele: Oh, that’s cool. Barry: Yeah, because I had a class where the guy said, well, if you pass the private [00:35:00] pilot written, you can have an A in the class for the whole year and you don’t have to show up. So suffice to say, I ended up with my pilot pilot’s license. Yes. But I wanted to be in the Air Force. I wanted to fly jets and, and we took the tests and they said, well, you’d be good at electronics. I wanted to be a pilot. They wouldn’t let me do that. But I didn’t forget that they said I might be good at electronics. And so that’s what I did. Engineering stuff. And I’ve been in the same industry for 44 years. Mm-hmm. Because I found something that I kind of like doing this stuff. I mean, the job is a job, right. But I kinda like doing this stuff. Gissele: And that’s, that’s what I say to my children. I say, explore the world. Explore all the things that you’re excited about now. Right. Because, and that’ll get you through the path, even if it’s just like the next step, like you said, okay, this guy said you don’t have to come to class. I’d rather have some flying lessons. I [00:36:00] think that’s a great. Wait, have you ever flown since? Well, Barry: I got my pilot’s license, but I couldn’t afford to keep flying. Right. Mm-hmm. My dad paid for it as part of my graduation gift ’cause he didn’t think I would pass the p private pilot written. Oh. Because he said, well, if you do that, I’ll pay for your flight instruction. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: So, but, you know, you talk about getting to places one of the questions I get asked is, did I ever think about quitting? On the walk. Yeah. The answer to that is no, but, but I started wondering what I got myself into. Speaker 2: Hmm. I Barry: wasn’t even outta Arizona. I was probably 150 miles into it, you know, like I said, this hurts, this hurts. and the problem I had was I was thinking about 1400 miles every day. I thought about, man, I got. 1300 miles to go. And so I just changed my mindset to I’m gonna walk [00:37:00] another three miles or four miles, take a break, see where we go from there. And it’s these baby steps that take you a long way. ’cause you look at something and say, well, I could never get that degree, or I could never get to that position where I would be able to do that in my life. But if you take these baby steps. You focus on those baby steps, then the next thing you know you’re in Montana. Gissele: Yeah, Barry: right. I mean, that’s really the way I thought of it is I didn’t want, because you think about, oh my gosh, I gotta do this every day for the next four months. And I just started thinking, all right, my wife Bev met me about every three or four miles. She’d go up there and park and I’d go up and take a little break and then move on. And it’s a great metaphor for life, I think. Gissele: Yeah, absolutely. I have a friend who would say, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. [00:38:00] Barry: Yes. When you are thinking Gissele: about the whole elephant, you’re gonna be full. But if you just take it one bite at a time, and like you said, That’s definitely a great metaphor for life. Is that how long it took you? Four months? Barry: Yeah. It took about four months. I averaged about 90 miles a week. Just met a lot of wonderful people along the way. Mm-hmm. It just. The world is a little bit jaded, but there’s a lot of wonderful people out there that, that just want to help. I had people bring me brownies and milk. People stopped every day and asked if I needed a ride. You know, what are you doing out here in the middle of nowhere? You know, it’s raining and, ’cause I, I walked in a fair amount of rain and get in the car. I’m like, no, I’m good. Whatcha doing out here? So then I have to tell ’em the story and yeah. But you meet a lot of wonderful people. Mm-hmm. Gissele: Yeah. It made me think of like, gump when he started running and there was a whole bunch of people that were running behind him. Yeah. And they’re like, what are running for? Barry: You get [00:39:00] that, you get a lot of people. I think it was a lot easier to do. I’ve actually driven the route, just drove it here a couple months ago. A fair amount of it. There really wasn’t nearly as much traffic as there is on those roads today. Gissele: Oh wow. Barry: You know, two lane roads, you’re walking that whole thing and you. It’s, it’s busy now. It wasn’t nearly as busy 20 years ago. Gissele: Yeah. And was it all gravelly? Like some of those roads are usually gravelly where you walk, like there’s not paved. Barry: These were all paved roads. They were all two lane roads. I kind of wanted to walk on the freeway because it was a straighter shot, but I could not get the Department of Public Safety in any of the states to tell me. They wouldn’t kick me off the freeway. So I had to stay on two lane roads, which added a few miles to it. But you get to see a lot of country too when you do that. Mm-hmm. Gissele: I mean, Barry: you get to let your mind wander and Oh wow. Look at that over there. You know, when you [00:40:00] drive by stuff, you don’t really see it. You just doing 70 miles an hour down the road. You don’t see it. But it was, and I tell everybody. Like, if I can pull off something like this, imagine what you can do. I’m not all that clever. I it’s just one of those things that I tell students you could do something even cooler, I’m sure of it. Gissele: Hmm. How did it feel when you reached the end? It’s a very emotional when you got to the end, what was that like? Barry: You know, it’s funny you asked that question. So I wrote the book, it’s Kevin’s Last Walk. It’s on Amazon. But when I wrote the book, I wanted to get feedback and this is where I’m going with this. And I had a, a group of book club. I printed it out and let ’em read it and I said, okay, I need everybody to tell me one thing you didn’t like about the book. One of ’em said, you told me more about your shoe selection than you did about how you felt when you finished the walk. [00:41:00] Because I hadn’t really, it was a relief physically, but at that point I didn’t know what was next and people would ask me, what’s next for you? And I’m like, I don’t know. But it turned out that. Now I can go tell the story about going on the walk and all the things that led up to going on the walk. And it’s evolved a lot through the years because my wife Bev was really helpful because when you, with the books, if you ever write a book, don’t have any family or friends read it because they’ll read it and say it was great. Speaker 2: Hmm. Barry: Mm-hmm. That’s the same way my wife Bev would tell me. ’cause she would sit in the back of the room and tell me, now you lost the audience with that. You need to either redo it or get rid of it. Speaker 2: Yeah. Barry: And so that helped me to [00:42:00] refine. Things because you need people that’ll actually, you need people in your life that’ll actually give you honest criticism. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right? And, she did. She’s like, you lost them with that. You know, and that’s, that’s how it’s evolved into what it is today. Gissele: Mm. That’s beautiful. Barry: Yeah. Gissele: Thinking about your children, I mean, you talk about how you and your wife sort of manage the grief. What were your children’s journeys in losing a sibling? And did your journey itself help them cope with a loss? Barry: I think it did. One of the things that we did that not every family does, is we didn’t stop talking about Kevin. Because sometimes when a someone loses a child, nobody wants to talk about it anymore, which to me, and again, I have a different perspective on this.[00:43:00] Yeah. That’s not healthy because that person was a part of your life for the last however many years. You don’t just stop talking about him. And I think that’s a healthy way to manage the grief. Right. we all talked about we’re not gonna play the blame game. Right. We talked about that stuff. My one daughter, he had, Kevin had left a message for her that night, and I don’t know if to this day if she turns her phone off at night. I think she might, I’ll have to ask her. ’cause the last time I talked about it, she said, you know, I haven’t turned my phone off since then. when she goes to bed, she doesn’t put it on silent. Because she missed that voicemail. Would she have done anything about it? Speaker 2: Yeah. I Barry: dunno. Right. But I think it’s kind of been probably been therapeutic for all of ’em, although I will say that I don’t know that any of ’em have read the book Gissele: If you had something to [00:44:00] say to young people about the dangers of binge drinking what would that be Barry: for me is to just know that it can happen to you. Nobody ever believes, including me, is that it’s ever gonna happen to you. I never believed anything would happen to him. And, you know, he had an attitude of, you know, 10 feet tall and bulletproof. Right? Most people do. It can happen to you. don’t worry about what other people think about you. Yeah. If you think it’s the right thing to do, then you should do it right. Don’t worry about it. Because like you said, those people are worried about themselves, not you. Gissele: [00:45:00] Yeah. Barry: Yeah. Gissele: Last few questions. So I ask all my guests what their definition of love or unconditional love is. Barry: For me you have to have humility to be able to really bond with somebody. I think you need to let go and not have to be right about everything. In marriage and in life. You know, if you become one of those people that has to be right about everything. That’s, that’s harder to love. But really loving everyone is about caring about them and setting an example and setting an example of love. Gissele: I think that’s what you’re doing with these presentations in the book and all the work that you do. I think coming at it from [00:46:00] a place of, I’m not telling you what to do, I’m just sharing my story in hopes that it will help you, that it’ll be of benefit to you. I think it’s the ultimate sort of act of love for your son. So last question. Where can people find you? Where can they find the book? Where can they work with you or listen to your presentations? Please share anything. Barry: The book is on Amazon. if you just search for my name, Barry Adkins, it should come up pretty close to the top. What I tell my big message is I still speak at schools. And I would love to come to your school. I just need to get connected and we’ll make it happen. On Facebook. It’s Kevin’s last walk. You can certainly message me there, or it’s http://www.kevinslastwalk.com. Just reach out. Most of the stuff I do is. I end up getting speaking opportunities through podcasts. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: People will reach out, or the podcaster Speaker 2: mm-hmm. Barry: Will [00:47:00] connect me with someone. And I’ve done a few of ’em that way, where we made the connections and we make it happen. and the big thing there is that I’m not looking to make money on this, Gissele, if I have to travel, there’s travel costs, but. There isn’t a big speaker fee on that. I just want to come and tell the story and I don’t want money to be in the way. Gissele: Yeah, Barry: bring me in. We’ll do it. Gissele: Sounds great. Thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Love and Compassion with Gissele. Thank you Barry for being on the show and sharing your wisdom. And thank you to everyone to tune in. Have a great day.

เคยสงสัยไหมว่า ออฟฟิศในฝันของคนรุ่นใหม่หน้าตาเป็นอย่างไร? . เป็นพื้นที่ที่ช่วยให้เราสามารถคิดงานได้อย่างสร้างสรรค์ เป็นพื้นที่ที่ช่วยให้เราได้ทำงานอย่างยืดหยุ่นมากขึ้น หรือเป็นพื้นที่ที่เปิดโอกาสให้เราได้มีคุณภาพชีวิตดีๆ ผ่านการเชื่อมโยงกับผู้คน . รายการพอดแคสต์ MM ในวันนี้จะพาทุกคนไปเจาะลึกเบื้องหลังความสำเร็จของ HPE Aruba X Sansiri และแนวคิดที่ทำให้ ‘SIRI Campus'กลายเป็น Dream Workplace ติด 20 อันดับแรกของประเทศไทยที่คนรุ่นใหม่อยากทำงานด้วยมากที่สุด พร้อมหาคำตอบกันว่ากุญแจความสำเร็จของแสนสิรินั้นคืออะไร . . Mission To The Moon X HPE Aruba X Sansiri . . #Sansiri #HPEAruba #HPEArubaXSansiri #MisisonToTheMoon #MissionToTheMoonPodcast

Ped, Burk and guest Grace open the show discussing a horrid Black Friday experience and people dumbly slipping on ice. Another fantastic Tik Tok video series has reached Adam's algorithm, much to the chagrin of Ryan. Burk brings us his perfect song of the week and back by popular demand, THE ROTTEN TOMATOES GAME!! In the Meat, Mm!, we celebrate the Christmas season by reading real and fake Hallmark movie plots and seeing if Grace can guess correctly. We end with fondly remembering some 90's Christmas gifts. Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

NEDTAKT: FC København lider et opsigtsvækkende nederlag til Sønderjyske, og i denne timelange nedtakt analyserer vi, hvad der gik galt – både taktisk, mentalt og ledelsesmæssigt.Hvorfor fungerede spillet ikke, selvom statistikkerne pegede i FCKs favør?Er holdet ramt af kollektiv udbrændthed?Og er Jacob Neestrup fortsat den rette cheftræner i FC København?Kapitler00:00 Introduktion og nederlag mod Sønderjyske07:30 Kampbilledet og statistikken15:00 Taktiske problemer22:30 Nestrup efter kampen30:00 Trænersituationen37:30 Lederskab i truppen45:00 Mental udbrændthed52:30 Hvad nu for FCK?Partnere: Unibet og Austria TourismFå inspiration til din næste tur til Østrig: https://www.austria.info/da/anbefalinger/aktiv-ferie/?utm_medium=audio&utm_source=kvartibold&utm_campaign=DNK_25_1-CTM-004-09_top_bewegung-erholung_MM-58947&utm_content=MM-72646Følg Austria Tourism på Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/feelaustriaDK På Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/visitaustria/

In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Lost Coin emphasizes that God actively and diligently searches for those who belong to Him, sparing no effort to recover what is rightfully His. Jesus uses three sequential parables in Luke 15 to progressively reveal different aspects of God's heart toward sinners, with escalating emphasis on divine joy. The coin represents something of significant value that already belonged to the woman, illustrating that God's elect belong to Him even before their redemption. Unlike finding something new, the joy depicted is specifically about recovering something that was already yours but had been lost, highlighting God's eternal claim on His people. The spiritual inability of the sinner is represented by the coin's passivity - it cannot find its own way back and must be sought out by its owner. Angels rejoice over salvation not independently but because they share in God's delight at the effectiveness of His saving power. The parable challenges believers to recover their joy in salvation and to share it with others, much like the woman who called her neighbors to celebrate with her. Expanded Insights God's Determined Pursuit of What Already Belongs to Him The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose. The Divine Joy in Recovering Sinners One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk. Memorable Quotes "Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb "The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb "These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:01:02] Jesus and the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and. Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it. Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it. In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So [00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it. [00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan. Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is [00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody [00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me. [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous. [00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. [00:02:51] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance, [00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners. Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group. And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn. There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there. [00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True. Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready. [00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else. Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something. [00:04:13] AI and Problem Solving [00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions. True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem. And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more. So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted. So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest. So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar. If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule. And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions. And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell. The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary. Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this. [00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way. Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history. So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction. And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective. [00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right. It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out. And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of. So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um. Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances. But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it. Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes. Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai. And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee. So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see. We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least. [00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken. [00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye. [00:13:05] Christmas Hymns and Music Recommendations [00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here? [00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it? [00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too. [00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the, those are like the top in the top three for me. Yeah. So I think [00:13:42] Tony Arsenal: I know where you're going based on the question. [00:13:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're very much the same. So, well maybe, so I am affirming with, but it's that time of year and people you, you know and love and maybe yourself, you're gonna listen to Christian music and. That's okay. I put no shade on that, especially because we're talking about the incarnation, celebrate the incarnation. But of course, I think the best version of that is some of these really lovely hymns because they could be sung and worshiped through all year round. We just choose them because they fit in with the calendar particularly well here, and sometimes they're included, their lyrics included in Hallmark cards and, and your local. Cool. Coles. So while that's happening, why not embrace it? But here's my information is why not go with some different versions. I love the hymn as you just said. Oh, come will come Emmanuel. And so I'm gonna give people three versions of it to listen to Now to make my list of this kind of repertoire. The song's gotta maintain that traditional melody. I think to a strong degree, it's gotta be rich and deep and dark, especially Ko Emmanuel. But it's gotta have something in it that's a little bit nuanced. Different creative arrangements, musicality. So let me give two brand new ones that you may not have heard versions and one old one. So the old one is by, these are all Ko Emanuel. So if at some point during this you're like, what song is he talking about? It's Ko. Emmanuel. It's just three times. Th we're keeping it th Rice tonight. So the first is by band called for today. That's gonna be a, a little bit harder if you want something that, uh, gets you kind of pumped up in the midst of this redemption. That's gonna be the version. And then there are two brand new ones. One is by skillet, which is just been making music forever, but the piano melody they bring into this and they do a little something nuanced with the chorus that doesn't pull away too much. From the original, but just gives it a little extra like Tastiness. Yeah. Skill. Great version. And then another one that just came out yesterday. My yesterday, not your yesterday. So actually it doesn't even matter at this point. It's already out is by descriptor. And this would be like the most chill version that is a hardcore band by, I would say tradition, but in this case, their version is very chill. All of them I find are just deeply worshipful. Yeah. And these, the music is very full of impact, but of course the lyrics are glorious. I really love this, this crying out to God for the Savior. This. You know, just, it's really the, the plea that we should have now, which is, you know, maranatha like Lord Jesus, come. And so in some ways we're, we're celebrating that initial plea and cry for redemption as it has been applied onto us by the Holy Spirit. And we're also saying, you know, come and fulfill your kingdom, Lord, come and bring the full promise, which is here, but not yet. So I like all three of these. So for today. Skillet descriptor, which sounds like we're playing like a weird word game when you put those all together. It does, but they're all great bands and their versions I think are, are worthy. So the larger affirmation, I suppose, is like, go out this season and find different versions, like mix it up a little bit. Because it's good to hear this music somewhat afresh, and so I think by coming to it with different versions of it, you'll get a little bit of that sense. It'll make maybe what is, maybe if it's felt rote or mundane or just trivial, like you're saying, kind of revive some of these pieces in our hearts so we can, we, we can really worship through them. We're redeeming them even as they're meant to be expressions of the ultimate redemption. [00:16:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I heard the skillet version and, uh, you know, you know me like I'm not a huge fan of harder music. Yeah. But that, that song Slaps man, it's, yes, [00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: it does. It's [00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: good. And Al I mean, it, it also ignited this weird firestorm of craziness online. I don't know if you heard anything about this, but Yes, it was, it was, there was like the people who absolutely love it and will. Fight you if you don't. Yes. And then there was like the people who think it's straight from the devil because of somehow demonic rhythms, whatever that means. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the heavier music, but there is something about that sort of, uh. I don't know. Is skill, would that be considered like metal at all? [00:17:38] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's a loaded question. Probably. [00:17:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So like I found, uh, this is, we're gonna go down to Rabbit Trail here. Let's do it. Here we go. I found a version of Africa by Toto that was labeled as metal on YouTube. So I don't know whether it actually is, and this, this version of skill, it strikes me as very similar, where it's, ah, uh, it, it's like, um. The harmonies are slightly different in terms of like how they resonate than Okay. Other harmonies. Like I get [00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: that [00:18:06] Tony Arsenal: there's a certain, you know, like when you think about like Western music, there's certain right, there's certain harmonies when, you know, think about like piano chords are framed and my understanding at least this could be way off, and I'm sure you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is that um, metal music, heavy metal music uses slightly different. Chord formations that it almost leaves you feeling a little unresolved. Yes, but not quite unresolved. Like it's just, it's, it's more the harmonics are different, so that's fair. Skillet. This skillet song is so good, and I think you're right. It, it retains the sort of like. The same basic melody, the same, the same basic harmonies, actually. Right. And it's, it's almost like the harmonies are just close enough to being put into a different key with the harmonies. Yes, [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: that's true [00:18:53] Tony Arsenal: than then. Uh, but not quite actually going into another key. So like, sometimes you'll see online, you'll find YouTube videos where they play like pop songs, but they've changed the, the. Chords a little bit. So now it's in a minor key. It's almost like it's there. It's like one more little note shift and it would be there. Um, and then there's some interesting, uh, like repetition and almost some like anal singing going on, that it's very good. Even if you don't like heavier music. Like, like I don't, um, go listen to it and I think you'll find yourself like hitting repeat a couple times. It was very, very good. [00:19:25] Jesse Schwamb: That's a good way of saying it. A lot of times that style is a little bit dissonant, if that's what you mean in the court. Yeah. Formation. So it gives you this unsettledness, this almost unresolvedness, and that's in there. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, actually, if you listen to that version from Skillet, you'll probably listen to most of it. You'll get about two thirds of the way through it and probably be saying, what are those guys talking about? It's the breakdown. Where it amps up. But before that, I think anybody could listen to it and just enjoy it. It's a really beautiful, almost haunting piano melody. They bring into the intro in that, in the interlude. It's very lovely. So it gives you that sense. Again, I love this kind of music because there's almost something, there is something in this song that's longing for something that is wanting and yet left, unresolved and unfulfilled until the savior comes. There's almost a lament in it, so to speak, especially with like the way it's orchestrated. So I love that this hymn is like deep and rich in that way. It's, that's fine. Like if you want to sing deck the Holes, that's totally fine. This is just, I think, better and rich and deeper and more interesting because it does speak to this life of looking for and waiting for anticipating the advent of the savior. So to get me get put back in that place by music, I think is like a net gain this time of year. It's good to have that perspective. I'm, I'm glad you've heard it. We should just open that debate up whether or not we come hang out in the telegram chat. We'll put it in that debate. Is skillet hardcore or metal? We'll just leave it there 'cause I have my opinions, but I'm, well, I'm sure everybody else does. [00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: I don't even know what those words mean, Jesse. Everything is hardcore in metal compared to what I normally listen to. I don't even listen to music anymore usually, so I, I mean, I'm like mostly all podcasts all the time. Anytime I have time, I don't have a ton of time to listen to. Um, audio stuff, but [00:21:06] Jesse Schwamb: that's totally fair. Well now everybody now join us though. [00:21:08] Tony Arsenal: Educate me [00:21:09] Jesse Schwamb: now. Everybody can properly use, IM prompt whatever AI of their choice, and they can listen to at least three different versions of al comical manual. And then they can tell us which one do you like the best? Or maybe you have your own version. That's what she was saying. What's your favorite Christmas in? [00:21:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:21:24] Jesse Schwamb: what version of it do you like? I mean, it'll be like. [00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: It'll be like, despite my best efforts, I've been un unable to understand what hardcore and medical is. Please help me understand. [00:21:37] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, we're gonna have some, some fun with this at some point. We'll have to get into the whole debate, though. I know you and I have talked about it before. We'll put it before the brothers and sisters about a Christmas Carol and what version everybody else likes. That's also seems like, aside from the, the whole eternal debate, which I'm not sure is really serious about whether or not diehard is a Christmas movie, this idea of like, which version of the Christmas Carol do you subscribe to? Yeah. Which one would you watch if you can only watch one? Which one will you watch? That's, we'll have to save that for another time. [00:22:06] Tony Arsenal: We'll save it for another time. And we get a little closer to midwinter. No reason we just can't [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: do it right now because we gotta get to Luke 15. [00:22:12] Discussion on the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:22:12] Tony Arsenal: We do. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've already been in this place of looking at Jesus' response to the Pharisees when they say to him, listen, this man receives sinners and eats with them. And Jesus is basically like, yeah, that's right. And let me tell you three times what the heart of God is like and what my mission in serving him is like, and what I desire to come to do for my children. And so we spoke in the last conversation about the parable lost sheep. Go check that out. Some are saying, I mean, I'm not saying this, but some are saying in the internet, it's the definitive. Congratulation of that parable. I'm, I'm happy to take that if that's true. Um, but we wanna go on to this parable of the lost coin. So let me read, it's just a couple of verses and you're gonna hear in the text that you're going to understand right away. This is being linked because it starts with or, so this is Jesus speaking and this is Luke 15, chapter 15, starting in verse eight. Jesus says, or a what woman? She has 10 D drachmas and loses. One drachma does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. And when she has found it, she calls together her friend and her neighbors saying, rejoice with me for I found the D Drachma, which I lost in the same way I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. [00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. On one level, this is, uh, again, it's not all that complicated of a scenario, right? And we have to kind of go back and relo through some of the stuff we talked about last week because this is a continuation of, you know, when we first talked about the Matthew 13 parables, we commented on like. Christ was coming back to the same themes, right? And in some ways, repeating the parable. This is even stronger than that. It's not just that Christ is teaching the same thing across multiple parables. The sense here, at least the sense I get when I read this parable, the lost sheep, and then the prodigal, um, sun parable or, or the next parable here, um, is actually that Christ is just sort of like hammering home the one point he's making to the tax collectors and or to the tax collectors or to the scribes who are complaining about the fact that Christ was eating with sinners. He's just hammering this point home, right? So it's not, it's not to try to add. A lot of nuance to the point. It's not to try to add a, a shade of meaning. Um. You know, we talked a lot about how parables, um, Christ tells parables in part to condemn the listeners who will not receive him, right? That's right. This is one of those situations where it's not, it's not hiding the meaning of the parable from them. The meaning is so obvious that you couldn't miss it, and he, he appeals, we talked about in the first, in the first part of this, he actually appeals to like what the ordinary response would be. Right? What man of you having a hundred sheep if he loses one, does not. Go and leave the 99. Like it's a scenario that anyone who goes, well, like, I wouldn't do that is, looks like an idiot. Like, that's, that's the point of the why. He phrases it. And so then you're right when he, when he begins with this, he says, or what woman having 10 silver coins if she loses one, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until he, till she finds it. And of course, the, the, the emphasis again is like no one in their right mind would not do this. And I think like we think about a coin and like that's the smallest denomination of money that we have. Like, I wouldn't, like if I lost a, if I had 10 silver coin, 10 coins and I lost one of them, the most that that could be is what? 50 cents? Like the, like if I had a 50 cent piece or a silver dollar, I guess, like I could lose a dollar. We're not really talking about coins the way we think of coins, right? We're talking about, um. Um, you know, like denominations of money that are substantial in that timeframe. Like it, there was, there were small coins, but a silver coin would be a substantial amount of money to lose. So we are not talking about a situation where this is, uh, a trivial kind of thing. She's not looking for, you know, I've, I've heard this parable sort of like unpacked where like, it's almost like a miserly seeking for like this lost coin. Interesting. It's not about, it's not about like. Penny pinching here, right? She's not trying to find a tiny penny that isn't worth anything that's built into the parable, right? It's a silver coin. It's not just any coin. It's a silver coin. So she's, she's looking for this coin, um, because it is a significant amount of money and because she's lost it, she's lost something of her, of her overall wealth. Like there's a real loss. Two, this that needs to be felt before he can really move on with the parable. It's not just like some small piece of property, like there's a [00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: right. I [00:26:57] Tony Arsenal: don't know if you've ever lost a large amount of money, but I remember one time I was in, um, a. I was like, almost outta high school, and I had taken some money out of, um, out of the bank, some cash to make a purchase. I think I was purchasing a laptop and I don't know why I, I don't, maybe I didn't have a credit card or I didn't have a debit card, but I was purchasing a laptop with cash. Right. And back then, like laptops, like this was not a super expensive laptop, but. It was a substantial amount of cash and I misplaced it and it was like, oh no, like, where is it? And like, I went crazy trying to find it. This is the situation. She's lost a substantial amount of money. Um, this parable, unlike the last one, doesn't give you a relative amount of how many she has. Otherwise. She's just lost a significant amount of money. So she takes all these different steps to try to find it. [00:27:44] Understanding the Parable's Context [00:27:44] Tony Arsenal: We have to feel that loss before we really can grasp what the parable is trying to teach us. [00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: I like that, so I'm glad you brought that up because I ended up going down a rabbit hole with this whole coined situation. [00:27:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, we're about to, Matt Whitman some of this, aren't we? [00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, I think so. But mainly because, and this is not really my own ideas here, there's, there's a lot I was able to kind of just read and kind. Throw, throw something around this because I think you're absolutely right that Jesus is bringing an ES escalation here and it's almost like a little bit easier for us to understand the whole sheep thing. I think the context of the lost coin, like you're already saying, is a little bit less familiar to us, and so I got into this. Rabbit hole over the question, why would this woman have 10 silver coins? I really got stuck on like, so why does she have these? And Jesus specific about that he's giving a particular context. Presumably those within his hearing in earshot understood this context far better than I did. So what I was surprised to see is that a lot of commentators you probably run into this, have stated or I guess promulgated this idea that the woman is young and unmarried and the 10 silver coins could. Could represent a dowry. So in some way here too, like it's not just a lot of money, it's possible that this was her saving up and it was a witness to her availability for marriage. [00:28:57] The Significance of the Lost Coin [00:28:57] Jesse Schwamb: So e either way, if that's true or not, Jesus is really emphasizing to us there's significant and severe loss here. And so just like you said, it would be a fool who would just like say, oh, well that's too bad. The coin is probably in here somewhere, but eh, I'm just gonna go about my normal business. Yeah. And forsake it. Like, let's, let's not worry about it. So. The emphasis then on this one is not so much like the leaving behind presumably can keep the remaining nine coins somewhere safe if you had them. But this effort and this diligence to, to go after and find this lost one. So again, we know it's all about finding what was lost, but this kind of momentum that Jesus is bringing to this, like the severity of this by saying there was this woman, and of course like here we find that part of this parable isn't just in the, the kingdom of God's like this, like we were talking about before. It's more than that because there's this expression of, again, the situation combined with these active verbs. I think we talked about last time that Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love. Like in the first case, the shepherd brought his sheep home on his shoulders rather than leave it in the wilderness. And then here. The woman does like everything. She lights the candle, she sweeps the house. She basically turns the thing, the place upside down, searching diligently and spared no pains with this until she found her lost money. And before we get into the whole rejoicing thing, it just strikes me that, you know, in the same way, I think what we have here is Christ affirming that he didn't spare himself. He's not gonna spare himself. When he undertakes to save sinners, he does all the things. He endures the cross scor in shame. He lays down his life for his friends. There's no greater love than that. It cannot be shown, and so Christ's love is deep and mighty. It's like this woman doing all the things, tearing the place apart to ensure that that which she knew she had misplaced comes back to her. That the full value of everything that she knows is hers. Is safe and secure in her possession and so does the Lord Jesus rejoice the safe sinners in the same way. And that's where this is incredibly powerful. It's not just, Hey, let me just say it to you one more time. There is a reemphasis here, but I like where you're going, this re-escalation. I think the first question is, why do the woman have this money? What purpose is it serving? And I think if we can at least try to appreciate some of that, then we see again how Jesus is going after that, which is that he, he wants to save the sinner. He wants to save the soul. And all of the pleasure, then all of the rejoicing comes because, and, and as a result of that context. [00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:23] Theological Implications of God's People [00:31:23] Tony Arsenal: The other thing, um, maybe, and, and I hope I'm not overreading again, we've, we've talked about the dangers of overreading, the parables, but I think there's a, and we'll, we'll come to this too when we get into the, um, prodigal son. Um, there is this sense, I think in some theological traditions that. God is sort of like claiming a people who were not his own. Right. And one of the things that I love about the reform tradition, and, and I love it because this is the picture the Bible teaches, is the emphasis on the fact that God's people have been God's people. As long as God has been pondering and con like contemplating them. So like we deny eternal justification, right? Justification happens in time and there's a real change in our status, in in time when, when the spirit applies, the benefits that Christ has purchased for us in redemption, right? But there's also a very real sense that God has been looking and considering us as his people in eternity past. Like that's always. That's the nature of the Pactum salutes, the, you know, covenant of redemption election. The idea that like God is not saving a nameless, faceless people. He's not creating conditions that people can either move themselves into or take themselves out of. He has a concrete people. Who he is saving, who he has chosen. He, he, you know, prior to our birth, he will redeem us. He now, he has redeemed us and he will preserve us in all of these parables, whether it's the sheep, the coin, or as we'll get to the prodigal sun next week or, or whenever. Um. It's not that God is discovering something new that he didn't have, or it's not that the woman is discovering a coin, right? There's nothing more, uh, I think nothing more like sort of, uh, spontaneously delightful than like when you like buy a, like a jacket at the thrift store. Like you go to Salvation Army and you buy a jacket, you get home, you reach in the pocket and there's like a $10 bill and you're like, oh man, that's so, so great. Or like, you find a, you find a. A $10 bill on the ground, or you find a quarter on the ground, right? Yeah. Or you find your own money. Well, and that that's, there's a different kind of joy, right? That's the point, is like, there's a delight that comes with finding something. And again, like we have to be careful about like, like not stealing, right? But there's a different kind of joy that comes with like finding something that was not yours that now becomes yours. We talked about that with parables a couple weeks ago, right? There's a guy who finds it, he's, he's searching for pearls. He finds a pearl, and so he goes after he sells everything he has and he claims that pearl, but that wasn't his before the delight was in sort of finding something new. These parables. The delight is in reclaiming and refining something that was yours that was once lost. Right? That's a different thing. And it paints a picture, a different picture of God than the other parables where, you know, the man kind of stumbles on treasure in a field or he finds a pearl that he was searching for, but it wasn't his pearl. This is different. This is teaching us that God is, is zealous and jealous to reclaim that which was his, which was lost. Yes. Right. So, you know, we can get, we can, maybe we will next week, maybe we will dig into like super laps area versus infra laps. AIRism probably not, I don't necessarily wanna have that conversation. But there is a reality in the Bible where God has a chosen people and they are his people, even before he redeems them. [00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. [00:34:53] God's Relentless Pursuit of Sinners [00:34:53] Tony Arsenal: These parables all emphasize that in a different way and part of what he's, part of what he's ribbing at with the Pharisees and the, and the scribes, and this is common across all of Christ's teaching in his interactions and we get into true Israel with, with Paul, I mean this is the consistent testimony of the New Testament, is that the people who thought they were God's people. The, the Jewish leaders, especially the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the, the sort of elites of, uh, first century Jewish believers, they really were convinced that they were God's people. And those dirty gentiles out there, they, they're not, and even in certain sense, like even the Jewish people out in the country who don't even, you know, they don't know the scriptures that like, even those people were maybe barely God's people. Christ is coming in here and he is going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you're asking me. You're surprised that I receive sinners and e with them. Well, I'm coming to claim that which is mine, which was lost, and the right response to that is not to turn your nose up at it. The right response is to rejoice with me that I have found my sheep that was lost, that I have reclaimed my coin that was lost. And as we'll see later on, like he really needles them at the end of the, the, uh, parable of the prodigal son. This is something I, I have to be like intentional in my own life because I think sometimes we hear conversion stories and we have this sort of, I, I guess like, we'll call it like the, the Jonah I heresy, I dunno, we won't call it heresy, but like the, the, the like Jonah impulse that we all have to be really thankful for God's mercy in our life. But sort of question whether God is. Merciful or even be a little bit upset when it seems that God is being merciful to those sinners over there. We have to really like, use these parables in our own lives to pound that out of our system because it's, it's ungodly and it's not what God is, is calling us. And these parables really speak against that [00:36:52] Jesse Schwamb: and all of us speak in. In that lost state, but that doesn't, I think like you're saying, mean that we are not God's already. That if he has established that from a trinity past, then we'd expect what others have said about God as the hound of heaven to be true. And that is he comes and he chases down his own. What's interesting to me is exactly what you've said. We often recognize when we do this in reverse and we look at the parable of the lost son, all of these elements, how the father comes after him, how there's a cha singer coming to himself. There's this grand act of repentance. I would argue all of that is in all of these parables. Not, not to a lesser extent, just to a different extent, but it's all there. So in terms of like couching this, and I think what we might use is like traditionally reformed language. And I, I don't want to say I'm overeating this, I hope I'm not at that same risk, but we see some of this like toll depravity and like the sinner is lost, unable to move forward, right? There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. There is. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. Yeah, it's in a slightly different way, but I think that's what we're meant to like take away from this. We're meant to lean into that a bit. [00:38:12] Rejoicing in Salvation [00:38:12] Jesse Schwamb: And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. Jesus has this real pleasure. The Holy Spirit has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. You know, it was Jesus, literally his food and drink like not to be too trite, but like his jam went upon the earth to finish the work, which he came to do. And there are many times when he says he ammi of being constrained in the spirit until this was accomplished. And it's still his delight to show mercy like you're saying He is. And even Jonah recognizes that, right. He said like, I knew you were going to be a merciful God. And so he's far more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved. But that is the gospel level voice, isn't it? Because we can come kicking and screaming, but in God's great mercy, not because of works and unrighteousness, but because of his great mercy, he comes and he tears everything apart to rescue and to save those whom he's called to himself. [00:39:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I love that old, um, Puritan phrase that wrath is God's alien work. And we, you know, like you gotta be careful when you start to talk that way. And the Puritans were definitely careful about everything. I mean, they were very specific when they spoke, but. When we talk about God's alien work and wrath being God's alien work, what we're saying is not, not that like somehow wrath is external to God. Like that's not what we're getting at of Right. But when you look at scripture and, and here's something that I think, um. I, I don't know how I wanna say this. Like, I think we read that the road is narrow and the the, um, you know, few are those who find it. I think we read that and we somehow think like, yeah, God, God, like, really loves that. Not a lot of people are saved. And I, I actually think that like, when we look at it, um, and, and again, like we have to be careful 'cause God, God. God decreed that which he is delighted by, and also that which glorifies him the most. Right? Right. But the picture that we get in scripture, and we have to take this seriously with all of the caveats that it's accommodated, it's anthropopathism that, you know, all of, all of the stuff we've talked about. We did a whole series on systematic theology. We did like six episodes on Divine Simplicity and immutability. Like we we're, we're right in line with the historic tradition on that. All of those caveats, uh, all of those caveats in place, the Bible pic paints a picture of God such that he grieves over. Those who are lost. Right? Right. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That's right. He, he, he seeks after the lost and he rejoices when he finds them. Right. He's, his, his Holy Spirit is grieved when we disobey him, his, his anger is kindled even towards his people in a paternal sense. Right. He disciplines us the way an angry father who loves us, would discipline us when we disobey him. That is a real, that's a real thing. What exactly that means, how we can apply that to God is a very complicated conversation. And maybe sometimes it's more complicated than we, like, we make it more complicated than it needs to be for sure. Um, we wanna be careful to preserve God's changeness, his immutability, his simplicity, all of those things. But at the end of the day, at. God grieves over lost sinners, and he rejoices when they come back. He rejoices when they return to him. Just as the shepherd who finds his lost sheep puts that sheep on his shoulders, right? That's not just because that's an easy way to carry a sheep, right? It's also like this picture of this loving. Intimate situation where God pulls us onto himself and he, he wraps literally like wraps us around himself. Like there are times when, um. You know, I have a toddler and there are times where I have to carry that toddler, and it's, it's a fight, right? And I don't really enjoy doing it. He's squirming, he's fighting. Then there are times where he needs me to hold him tight, and he, he snuggles in. When he falls down and hurts his leg, the first thing he does is he runs and he jumps on me, and he wants to be held tight, and there's a f there's a fatherly embrace there that not only brings comfort to my son. But it brings great joy to me to be able to comfort him that that dynamic in a, uh, a infinitely greater sense is at play here in the lost sheep. And then there's this rejoicing. It's not just rejoicing that God is rejoicing, it's the angels that are rejoicing. [00:42:43] The Joy of Redemption [00:42:43] Tony Arsenal: It's the, it's other Christians. It's the great cloud of witnesses that are rejoicing when Aah sinner is returned to God. All of God's kingdom and everything that that includes, all of that is involved in this rejoicing. That's why I think like in the first parable, in the parable of the lost sheep, it's joy in heaven. Right? It's sort of general joy in heaven. It's not specific. Then this one is even more specific. It's not just general joy in heaven. It's the angels of God. That's right. That are rejoicing. And then I think what we're gonna find, and we'll we'll tease this out when we get to the next par, well the figure in the prodigal son that is rejoicing. The one that is leading the rejoicing, the chief rejoice is the one who's the standin for God in that parable. [00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right, exactly right. So, [00:43:27] Tony Arsenal: so we have to, we have to both recognize that there's a true grief. A true sorrow that is appropriate to speak of God, um, as having when a sinner is lost. And there's also an equally appropriate way to speak about God rejoicing and being pleased and delighted when a sinner returns to him. [00:43:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's the real payoff of this whole parable. I think, uh, maybe all three of them altogether, is that it is shocking how good the gospel is, which we're always saying, yeah, but I'm really always being moved, especially these last couple weeks with what Jesus is saying about how good, how truly unbelievable the gospel is. And again, it draws us to the. Old Testament scriptures when even the Israel saying, who is like this? Who is like our God? So what's remarkable about this is that there's an infinite willingness on God's part to receive sinners. [00:44:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:44:23] Jesse Schwamb: And however wicked a man may have been, and the day that he really turns from his wickedness and comes to God by Christ, God is well pleased and all of heaven with him, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, like you said, but God has pleasure and true repentance. If all of that's true, then like day to day, here's what I, I think this means for us. [00:44:41] Applying the Parable to Our Lives [00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: Is when we come to Christ for mercy and love and help and whatever anguish and perplexity and simpleness that we all have, and we all have it, we are going with the flow. If his own deepest wishes, we're not going against them. And so this means that God has for us when we partake in the toning work of Christ, coming to Christ for forgiveness, communing with him despite our sinfulness, that we are laying hold of Christ's own deepest longing and joy. [00:45:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus is comforted when we draw near the riches of his atoning work because as his body, even his own body in a way is being healed in this process. And so we, along with it, that I think is the payoff here. That's what's just so remarkable is that not only, like you're saying, is all heaven kind of paying attention to this. Like they're cognizant of it. It's something worthy of their attention and their energies and their rejoicing. But again, it's showing that God is doing all of this work and so he keeps calling us and calling us and calling us over and over again and just like you said, the elect sinner, those estr belongs to God and his eternal purpose. Even that by itself, we could just say full stop. Shut it down end the podcast. Yeah. That's just worthy to, to rejoice and, and ponder. But this is how strong I think we see like per election in particular, redemption in these passages. Christ died for his chief specifically crisis going after the lost coin, which already belongs to him. So like you were saying, Tony, when you know, or maybe you don't know, but you've misplaced some kind of money and you put your hand in that pocket of that winter coat for the first time that season and out comes the piece of paper, that's whatever, 20 or whatever, you rejoice in that, right. Right. It's like this was mine. I knew it was somewhere, it belonged to me, except that what's even better here is this woman tears her whole place apart to go after this one coin that she knows is hers and yet has been lost. I don't know what more it is to be said. I just cannot under emphasize. Or overemphasize how great God's love is in this like amazing condescension, so that when Jesus describes himself as being gentle and lowly or gentle and humble or gentle and humiliated, that I, I think as we understand the biblical text, it's not necessarily just that he's saying, well, I'm, I'm displaying. Meekness power under control. When he says he's humble, he means put in this incredibly lowly state. Yeah. That the rescue mission, like you're saying, involves not just like, Hey, she lemme call you back. Hey, come over here, says uh. He goes and he picks it up. It's the ultimate rescue, picks it up and takes it back by his own volition, sacrificing everything or to do that and so does this woman in this particular instance, and it should lead us. I think back to there's this virtuous cycle of seeing this, experiencing this. Being compelled by the law of Christ, as Paul says, by the power of the Holy Spirit and being regenerated and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping. Because in the midst of that repentance and that beautifulness recognizing, as Isaiah says, all of these idols that we set up, that we run to, the one thing they cannot do for us is they cannot deal with sin. They cannot bring cleanliness and righteousness through confession of sin. They cannot do that. So Christ is saying, come to the one you who are needy, you who have no money. To use another metaphor in the Bible, come and buy. And in doing so, we're saying, Christ, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And when he says, come, come, I, I've, I have already run. After you come and be restored, come and be renewed. That which was lost my child. You have been found and I have rescued you. [00:48:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these, these are so, um, these two parables are so. Comfortable. Like, right, like they are there, there are certain passages of scripture that you can just like put on like a big fuzzy warm bathrobe on like sn a cold morning, a snuggy. Yeah. I don't know if I want to go that far, but spirits are snuggy and, and these two are like that, right? Like, I know there are times where I feel like Christ redeemed me sort of begrudgingly, right? Mm-hmm. I think we have, we have this, um, concept in our mind of. Sort of the suffering servant, you know, like he's kind of like, ah, if I have to do it, I will. Right, right. And, and like, I think we, we would, if, if we were the ones who were, were being tasked to redeem something, we might do it. You know, we might do it and we. We might feel a certain sense of satisfaction about it, but I can tell you that if I had a hundred sheep and I had lost one, I would not lay it on my shoulder rejoicing. I would lay it on my shoulder. Frustrated and glad that I finally found it, but like. Right. Right. That's not what Christ did. That's right. Christ lays us on his shoulders rejoicing. Right. I know. Like when you lose something, it's frustrating and it's not just the loss of it that's frustrating. It's the time you have to take to find it. And sometimes like, yeah, you're happy that you found it, but you're like, man, it would've just been nice if I hadn't lost this in [00:49:36] Jesse Schwamb: the That's right. [00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This woman, there's none of that. There's no, um, there's no regret. There's no. Uh, there's no begrudging this to it. There's nothing. It's just rejoicing. She's so happy. And it's funny, I can imagine, uh, maybe, maybe this is my own, uh, lack of sanctification here. I can imagine being that friend that's like, I gotta come over 'cause you found your coin, right? Like, I can be, I could imagine me that person, but Right. But honestly, like. This is a, this is a situation where she's so overcome with joy. She just has to tell people about it. Yeah. She has to share it with people. It, it reminds me, and I've seen this, I've seen this, um, connection made in the past certainly isn't new to me. I don't, I don't have any specific sorts to say, but like the woman at the well, right. She gets this amazing redemption. She gets this, this Messiah right in front of her. She leaves her buckets at the well, and she goes into a town of people who probably hate her, who think she's just the worst scum of society and she doesn't care. She goes into town to tell everybody about the fact that the Messiah has come, right? And they're so like stunned by the fact that she's doing it. Like they come to see what it is like that's what we need to be like. So there's. There's an element here of not only the rejoicing of God, and again, like, I guess I'm surprised because I've, I've, I've never sort of really read this. Part, I've never read this into it too much or I've never like really pulled this out, but it, now that I'm gonna say it, it just seems logical, like not only is God rejoicing in this, but again, it should be calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is. Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently? Like when's the last time? And I, I don't want to, this is, this can be a lot of loss. So again, like. God is not calling every single person to stand up on their lunch table at work, or, I don't know if God's calling anybody to stand up on the lunch table at work. Right. To like, like scream about how happy they are that they're sick, happy, happy. But like, when's the last time you were so overcome with joy that in the right opportunity, it just over, like it just overcame you and you had to share it. I don't rem. Putting myself bare here, like I don't remember the last time that happened. I share my faith with people, like my coworkers know that I'm a Christian and, um, my, they know that like, there are gonna be times where like I will bring biblical ethics and biblical concepts into my work. Like I regularly use bible examples to illustrate a principle I'm trying to teach my employees or, or I will regularly sort of. In a meeting where there's some question about what the right, not just like the correct thing to do, but the right thing to do. I will regularly bring biblical morality into those conversations. Nobody is surprised by that. Nobody's really offended by it. 'cause I just do it regularly. But I don't remember the last time where I was so overcome with joy because of my salvation that I just had to tell somebody. Right. And that's a, that's a, that's an indictment on me. That's not an indictment on God. That's not an indictment on anyone else. That's an indictment on me. This parable is calling me to be more joyful about. My salvation. [00:52:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. One of the, I think the best and easiest verses from Psalms to memorize is let the redeemed of the Lord say so. Yes. Like, say something, speak up. There's, there's a great truth in what you're saying. Of course. And I think we mentioned this last time. There's a communal delight of redemption. And here we see that played out maybe a little bit more explicitly because the text says that the joy is before the angels, meaning that still God is the source of the joy. In other words, the angels share in God's delight night, vice versa, and not even just in salvation itself, but the fact that God is delighted in this great salvation, that it shows the effectiveness of his saving power. All that he has designed will come to pass because he super intends his will over all things that all things, again are subservient to our salvation. And here, why would that not bring him great joy? Because that's exactly what he intends and is able to do. And the angels rejoice along with him because his glory is revealed in his mighty power. So I'm, I'm with you. I mean, this reminds me. Of what the author of Hebrew says. This is chapter 12, just the first couple of verses. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses in this communal kind of redemption of joy surrounding us. Laying aside every weight and the sin,

In this episode of the Ferrari Marketplace Podcast, host William Ross along with special guests Chris Miele from Prancing Horse of Nashville and Sam Murtaugh from Mecum Auctions contribute to the conversation by focusing on the Bachman Collection, a notable assemblage of Ferrari models with exceptionally low mileage. They outline the Ferrari Classiche certification process, emphasize the importance of original components and low-mileage cars, and spotlight several key models from the collection, including the two 288 GTO, multiple F40s, an F50, and the LaFerrari. Miele and Murtaugh provide anecdotes about the collection's owner, Phil Bachman, and his dedication to preserving and maintaining his cars in pristine condition. The podcast anticipates high excitement and strong interest as these prestigious Ferraris go across the auction block at the Mecum Kissimmee auction. ===== (Oo---x---oO) ===== 00:00 Welcome and Guest Introductions 00:50 Discussing the Bachman Collection 03:18 Ferrari Classiche Certification Process 06:38 Spotlight on the 166 MM 07:37 The 275 GTB/4 Alloy Body 09:27 Auction Preparation and Process 11:57 The Unique 400i Manual 15:31 The 288 GTO and F40s; The Story of Two Incredible Cars 21:59 Phil's Journey to Acquire the F50 28:04 The Unique Enzo Ferrari 29:48 Phil's Collection and Memorabilia 34:20 The Passion Behind the Collection 37:58 The Upcoming Auction Event 39:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts ==================== The Motoring Podcast Network : Years of racing, wrenching and Motorsports experience brings together a top notch collection of knowledge, stories and information. #everyonehasastory #gtmbreakfix - motoringpodcast.net More Information: Visit Our Website Become a VIP at: Patreon Online Magazine: Gran Touring Follow us on Social: Instagram On Ferrari Friday's, William Ross from the Exotic Car Marketplace will be discussing all things Ferrari and interviewing people that live and breathe the Ferrari brand. Topics range from road cars to racing; drivers to owners, as well as auctions, private sales and trends in the collector market. Copyright William Ross, Exotic Car Marketplace a division of Sixty5 Motorsports. This episode is part of our Motoring Podcast Network and has been republished with permission.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the complexities of hiring in growing agencies. They highlight the challenges of finding skilled, reliable employees who align with agency values. Sharing personal experiences, Gini explains the pitfalls of hasty hiring and the benefits of thorough vetting and cultural fit. They stress the importance of a structured hiring process, including clear job roles, career paths, and appropriate compensation. They also underscore the value of meaningful interviews, proper candidate evaluations, and treating the hiring process as the start of a long-term relationship. Lastly, Chip and Gini emphasize learning from past mistakes to improve hiring effectiveness and employee retention. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “When we talk about retaining employees, it goes back to how the interviews went.” Gini Dietrich: “You’re gonna be working with this person eight hours a day. You should have a real meaningful conversation with them. Don’t ask if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?” Chip Griffin: “If you’re going to have members of your team interviewing, you need to make sure that you’re educating them on how to do it well. And how to do it without causing problems.” Gini Dietrich: “They say, hire slowly and fire fast for a reason, because you have to be really meticulous about who you hire. So that they do last. So they are a culture fit, so they don’t miss deadlines, so that they are getting the work done that you need done.” Related How to onboard new agency employees Get over your fear of hiring employees Hiring the best employees for your agency How to hire agency employees Setting honest expectations for your agency employees from the start Focus on agency employee retention View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, a few weeks ago, I think I fired you. Today, you’re hired, Gini Dietrich: You keep playing with my emotions. I don’t know how to do this anymore. I’m fired. I don’t get paid. Now you’re rehiring me. I don’t know what to do. Chip Griffin: Yeah, it’s difficult. Anyway. It is what it is. But no, we are gonna talk about hiring today because we are, you know, we can’t just talk about all the bad things. So, we’ll, we’ll spend some time talking about something that is overall more positive. Because if we’re hiring, hopefully that means that we are growing, or at least we have the need for additional resources, even if it’s replacing someone who has left. But it is something that is very challenging, so it can create its own problems along the way if you don’t do it right. So this is, something that comes from one of our favorite topic inspiration sources. Reddit. I know it’s a place that you live and breathe. Gini Dietrich: And by favorite, we’re using quotes “favorite”, scares the crap outta me. But ok. Chip Griffin: You are on Reddit all day every day. Just kind of combing around to see what conversations you can jump into. But this is one that was on there, probably a while ago honestly, it’s in our topic document. We didn’t date it, so I, I can’t tell you how long ago it was, but, what it says is, hiring the right people is harder than it looks. Finding skilled, reliable people who align with your values is a challenge. Early on, I rushed hires and paid for it in missed deadlines and miscommunication. Now I take more time to vet people and focus on cultural fit as much as skills. So I thought it would be helpful for us to have a conversation around how we approach the hiring process. How do we find the right fits? How do we vet those fits? And how do we frankly think about going from hiring them to, to beginning to on onboard them. We’re not gonna talk about the full onboarding process, but just sort of, you know, that, that evolution of saying, Hey, I need this role. Where do we go from there? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s, it’s funny you say that this is our topic today. ’cause just the other day I was thinking about some of the very early hires I made that didn’t work out. And all of the mistakes I made in, in hiring them. And I will say that one of the biggest mistakes that I make is I meet somebody online who has the right skillset from a paper perspective, resume perspective, and I just hire them. I’m like, oh yeah, you, you look like you can do the job. And we may have a conversation, but there’s no, like, thought about it. There’s no interviewing for skills. It’s more just like a, a conversation to see if we, we might be able to work together. And every time I have done that, it has not worked out. So earlier this year I hired a chief learning officer to help with like certification and, you know, all the professional development things we do on the PESO model front. And about three or four months in, we both realized that, that that while she can do that job and she’s great at that job, she would be more valuable as a chief operating officer. So we switched her over. And let me tell you, being professionalized on the hiring front is phenomenal. I mean, she has set up interview guides, so like if you are an assistant account executive, and this would be somebody that you report to maybe two or three levels up, and we’re having you interview, you have a set of questions. If you’re the direct report, you have a set of questions. So we, like, she’s created all this. She’s created salary bands and like, you know, a career path for everybody where from where they start and she’s done, she’s done it in such a way that it isn’t bloat, but it’s just kind of professionalized the way that we do things. And you don’t have to hire a chief operating officer to do this, like I know you, you like to talk. Patrick is your go-to person from an HR perspective, someone like Patrick can help create these things so that you can professionalize it because as they say, hire slowly and fire fast. That quote is there for a reason, because you have to be really meticulous about who you hire. So that they do last. So they are a culture fit, so they don’t miss deadlines so that they are getting the, the work done that you need done and you’re not being, like, I have been in, in the last 20 years of just hiring people I like. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I, I mean, I think that, you know, you’ve touched on some important things here and, and you do have to have some sort of a process in place. It doesn’t need to turn you do into a bureaucratic circus, Gini Dietrich: You do, right. Chip Griffin: But at the same time, you need to have a process. And, and it really, to me, starts with being clear about what it is that you need. And who it is that you’re trying to hire. And, and too often when we’re trying to hire, it’s either because someone has left or because we’ve got a new client. And so our, our mindset is we need to get someone in here quick because we’ve gotta relieve this pain and this pressure. But that often leads to some of those bad decisions because you’re not really evaluating. Not even just the individual, but the role. Mm-hmm. And you need to think through, you know, what do you actually need at any given point in time? And it’s one of the reasons why I am a very strong advocate of only hiring, particularly in small agencies, only hiring one person at a time, one role at a time. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: Because every time you add someone new to the mix, it changes a little bit what you think you might need in the next one. And if you hire two people simultaneously, it increases the odds that you don’t actually have the right mix of talent on board. So you’ve gotta be crystal clear with yourself about what you’re looking for, but to your point, you also need to have a process in place that helps to understand what are our salary bands, what are our titles? How does this fit in? What is their growth path? Because those are questions you will get during the interview process. And if you’re not clear about those things going in, you will either overpay or underpay or assign the wrong title. Or frankly, get the wrong person because you’re not thinking about it in the big picture. So put the thought process in upfront, and that is the, to me, the first step in making sure that you make as good a decision as possible. Accepting that frankly, a lot of hiring decisions are gonna be wrong. Right? Even of course, even, even the, of course, even the best organizations, of course with the, with robust HR teams and, and talent evaluation, they still have a lot of misfires, so you can’t beat yourself up over those. But you’ve gotta increase your odds by having the right thought process and structural process in place. Gini Dietrich: One of the things that, you know, early on I would do when I didn’t have a team who could interview people, I would ask my business coach, or I would ask, you know, friends that were in the industry, other agency owners, if they would participate in some interviewing, just to kind of get me out of the Gosh, I really like this person. I think we’ll work well together. And, rather than, gosh, I really like this person and I think they can do the job right. So just having different outside perspective helped me when I didn’t have a team that could also do the interviewing. So I think, you know, doing that kind of stuff too helps. And I also think that, you know, I, one of the biggest mistakes, and you touched on this that I’ve made, is not having that career path or clear career path. Because people come to work and even though you’re an entrepreneur and you’re the agency owner, and you kind of know in your head how things work, they need to know that because this is their career that you’re talking about. So they need to know that if I wanna be promoted in 6 months, or 12 months or 18 months or whatever it happens to be, these are the things that I need to achieve so that they’re working towards something, not waiting for the annual review and saying, am I up for a promotion? What does that look like? Do I get a raise? Like, so having those kinds of things I think is incredibly important upfront so that you know, this is what we expect, this is how you’ll get to the next step, and you can be very clear about that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, because it, it is a question that you absolutely will get. I’ve done a lot of interviews over the years. I continue to, to do interviews for clients, and I can tell you that you get a lot of those kinds of questions where people want to understand what their career path is. The other one they ask a lot is, what does a typical day look like? Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: You’ve gotta have the answers for those questions as best you can, and, and you need to be honest with them where you don’t know. So don’t, don’t, you know, blow smoke and, and Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: You know, give them an answer if you don’t have one. If, if the honest answer is, I don’t know. Tell them that, but then also explain how you think about it or how you would go about it, or the kinds of things that, that might be included so that you can paint some kind of a picture there. Because it’s, it is important for people to evaluate it. And frankly, we look at these things as, as evaluating the talent for us. But they’re also evaluating us. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: And, and so you also need to make sure that in the process you’re giving them plenty of time to ask questions. In fact, I usually start by letting them ask questions for two reasons. One is because it helps them to get the information that they need to evaluate it. But second, you learn as much from the questions they ask as anything else. And to me, a red flag is when they have no questions at all. Gini Dietrich: No questions. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Because if they have no questions at all, it probably means they did no research. They’re probably not all that interested. They’re just trying to get a job of some kind. It doesn’t, it doesn’t mean necessarily that they’re a bad fit. Some people just freeze up because they’re, you know, that’s, that’s not a traditional approach to interviews. To start by saying, what questions do you have of me? Right. By the way, introduce yourself first. Talk a little bit about the business and the role. I mean, don’t just, you know, say hello. What questions do you have? Gini Dietrich: Hello. What do you have? What questions can I answer? Chip Griffin: But, but honestly, I, I almost always will ask people what questions they have before I ask my first question. We just do the intros and then start with that, because you learn from that. And it, it also helps them get onto a more comfortable spot. And so you can steer the, the conversation, I think, more effectively that way. Gini Dietrich: One of my biggest pet peeves is, you know, now that we have a, a team who does the interviews, if the candidate gets to me, that means they’re one of the finalists, right? And I will say, what questions do you have of me? And they will say, and this happens more often than not. Well, I kind of already asked my all my other question, my questions from everybody else. So ask them again. Right? Make sure you get the same answer like. Right. Yeah, because that will, as I know we’re not talking, we’re not talking to candidates right now, but that will tell you as much if there’s, the answers are different than anything else. So that is also a red flag. Which brings me to, we actually created a list of red flags, and we’re going through the A process right now ’cause we’re hiring and our HR director is doing pre-screens, phone screens, and one of the red flags is Are you able to work with within bureaucracy and lots of change and indecisiveness and you know. And one, one of the people that’s interviewing said, I just don’t like bureaucracy. I don’t like lots of change. I don’t like indecisiveness, I’m not. And she was like, no, like, because we have our list of red flags. So it’s, it’s an easy way also to sort of get yourself out of the, gosh, I really like this person. I’d like to work with them. If you have that list of red flags that you will allow you to objectively say, probably not the right fit for this job. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and the more that you do of this, the more easily you can come up with those things that just, that it, they’re the indication that this may not be the best fit. Yeah. And I always encourage probing just to make sure that, and I prefer to think of ’em as orange flags rather than red flags most of the time. Because most of the time it’s more the accumulation of those things than, than a single one that Gini Dietrich: fair, fair, Chip Griffin: that says, okay, no, this isn’t the right fit. But I also like to probe. And so, you know, in an example like that, I might say, well, well why does that bother you? Why is that a problem? And just kind of see, Gini Dietrich: yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, what their, what their root thinking is, because I mean, chances are it’s not gonna change anything, but it’s always interesting to find out why. I think the other thing, and, and you touched on this in, in, you know, having a, a, an interview guide and all of that, if you’re going to have members of your team interviewing, you need to make sure that you’re educating them on how to do it well. And how to do it without causing problems. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And I think I’ve shared this on the podcast before. Yes. But I have seen so many egregious questions in interviews Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Over the years that create substantial legal and regulatory issues. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Please, please, please train your juniors. Frankly, some of you probably need some training yourselves. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: On how to do this, Gini Dietrich: I was just gonna say yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: In a way that’s not causing problems. Yes. Because the, I mean, the questions that I’ve seen asked in interviews are just off the charts and, and, and so blatantly inappropriate. Gini Dietrich: Do you have some examples? Chip Griffin: Focus on, and, and, and the other thing is focus on questions that, that actually might reveal something that’s useful to you. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: You are not, this is not Google. You’re not out there trying to ask, you know, weird mind game questions. Ask straightforward questions. I, I mean, ’cause the other thing Gini Dietrich: if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be? Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, in addition to the inappropriate questions, you just get these dumb ones, right? Where someone, someone read an article and they’re like, oh, you learn so much if you ask, what kind of tree would you be? Really, you just look crazy as an interviewer. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: You’ll look like you’ve lost your mind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Just don’t do it. Have a real conversation. Treat them like a professional. Treat them with respect. Treat them like you would a prospect. Don’t sit there and, and try to play gotcha games. It’s not a quiz show. It’s not. If you want to go on a quiz show and, and you wanna run your own quiz show, fine. Do that. Your interview subjects, that’s not what it’s for. Don’t ask them in Google Analytics, where do you go to do this? Come on, seriously, just knock it off. Gini Dietrich: That’s funny. Chip Griffin: And if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna try to apply tests to people, you gotta pay them. Gini Dietrich: I totally 100% agree with that. Chip Griffin: But you can’t, Gini Dietrich: yes. Chip Griffin: You can’t say, I need you to write a plan for me. Gini Dietrich: No. Chip Griffin: Or write a press release or something like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Particularly if it’s for an actual client you have Correct. And you might actually use it. That’s just wrong. That’s, and I see that way too often. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Where someone says, well, I need to evaluate you. I need you to, to do this. On the technical side, I’ve seen people ask to be written to write all sorts of code. Why? Gini Dietrich: Bad idea. I, you know what, actually Reddit is full of, of those like, so I’m interviewing for this job and they asked me to put together a 12 month plan complete with deck and strategy and blah, blah, blah. Is that normal? And I’m always like, no? Chip Griffin: No, Gini Dietrich: don’t do it. I understand the hiring market is tough right now, but no. Chip Griffin: It’s just bizarre. I mean, honestly, I, I would be suspicious of anybody who could put together that kind of a plan based on, you know, 10 minutes of conversation. Gini Dietrich: Right, right, right. Chip Griffin: I mean, and that’s the other thing. You have to be realistic about what kinds of answers you can get from people in these short windows of time. And so it really is… it’s not necessarily about whether you like them, but it’s, it’s trying to get to understand how they think, how they approach things. You can get those big picture senses off of these conversations, but the, the more granular you get with your question, the less likely it is to be a reliable indicator. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And, and you need to, to again, treat it like a real conversation. So to the extent you have interview guides. Please use them. Just look through them and, and use it as, as a, a general format for the questions you might ask. Please do not do as, as. When I used to advise members of Congress and I prepared questions for them for hearings. Some of them would sit there and ask question one, question two, question three. They wouldn’t even listen to what the, the answer was from the witness at the hearing. They wouldn’t listen to what their colleagues had asked. So I, there were any number of situations where a member would read my question. The member previous to them had asked the exact same question, but they weren’t bothering to listen. Or they asked question one, and they move immediately to question number two, even though the person actually answered question number two as part of their response to question number one. Use your brain. Have a meaningful conversation. Do not walk through your, these are the 10 questions I always ask on interviews and just march through them Gini Dietrich: right Chip Griffin: in forced order. That doesn’t make any sense. You, you need to, to have a real meaningful conversation with someone if you wanna evaluate them properly. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You’re gonna be working with this person eight hours a day. You should have a real meaningful conversation with them. This, that’s ludicrous. Chip Griffin: Alright, so you, so we’ve, we’ve figured out what we need. We’ve done the interviews. So now how do we pick, we, you know, we’ve got, I mean, let’s say we’ve got a couple of finalists. They’re both in our view, viable finalists. They’re, they’re, they both could do the job. What do you weigh most heavily when you’re evaluating one versus the other? How, how do you make that difficult decision? Gini Dietrich: I’m the wrong person to ask that question ’cause it is based on whether or not I like you and that’s probably not the right response. Chip Griffin: I mean the, there has to be an element of that, particularly in a small agency. Right. You know, you Yeah. If you just, if if you, if you don’t get the right vibe off of someone and you’re like, ah, this just doesn’t… listen to yourself. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Right. If, if you don’t enjoy having the conversations with that person during the interview process, Gini Dietrich: it’s not gonna get better. Chip Griffin: And maybe you say, well, but they’re, they have all the skills. They have all the connections. They know what they’re doing. Oh, it’d make my life so easy. Listen to yourself there. And that doesn’t mean that you have to have that, you know, you need to hire people that you want to go out and have a beer with after work or something like that. But, you know, you’ve gotta feel like, I could talk to this person Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: An hour or two a day and I, I wouldn’t lose my mind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Don’t ever say they’ve got so much talent. I’m gonna ignore that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Never, because I, the way I think about it is, and the same thing with clients, I would say it will, it gets to the point that I’m gonna end up canceling meetings with this person or with this client. If the answer is yes, then it’s not the right fit. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, and, and the flip side is true too. Going to your point very early in this conversation, if you, if you are enjoying your conversation with that person, don’t overlook the fact that they don’t actually have the skills Yeah. That match up. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, they are under, it will bite you, underqualified or overqualified for the role. They still need to be a fit for the role. No matter how much you enjoy uhhuh your conversations with them or how smart you think they are, Uhhuh, that they may be a good fit for your organization at some point in some role, but it may not be the one you’re hiring for now. Mm-hmm. So make sure that you’re clear with yourself and don’t talk yourself into something. I, I see this a lot where people will get through the hiring process and they find someone that they really like and they’re like, well, they’re not really a fit for this role, but I could see them doing this or that. It’s okay to be flexible, but make sure that whatever this or that is, is really something you need. And you’re not talking yourself into an additional expenditure or putting yourself in a position where, yes, you’ve got that person, but now you still have to hire for this other role. You, you may make things more difficult for yourself in that. So make sure that you’re always going back to what did you say you needed? And if we’re deviating from that, why? And is it, is it a sound business case for making that decision? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. Learn from me. Don’t make those mistakes. It costs a lot of time, a lot of money, and a lot of angst. It burns, some bridges. Learn from me. Chip Griffin: And, and also throughout the interview process, and I think we’ve talked about this on the, the show in the past before start thinking about those interview conversations, the hiring conversation where you’re making the offer. Think about all of those as part of the onboarding process. Because it really is a seamless transition or should be a seamless transition into the onboarding and ultimately retention. I mean, when, when we talk about retaining employees, it goes back to how the interviews went. Absolutely. The questions you asked, the way you handled yourself, all of that impacts things that will happen 6, 12, 18 months down the road or even more. Yeah. And so you need to be mindful of that and thinking about how would this person perceive the questions we ask, the process we follow, are we frankly canceling a lot of times on them during the interview process. You need to treat them with respect, if you want to be treated with respect, if you want to build a lasting relationship. So think about all of that at every step of the hiring process, from that first interview, to the last interview, to the offer, et cetera. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely, yes. It’s very, very, very important for you to be organized and prepared. Hire slowly. Those will be the things that save you from a hiring perspective. And like I said, learn from me and don’t always hire just people you like. Chip Griffin: There you go. But don’t hire people you dislike either. Gini Dietrich: So well, sure. But they also have to have the skills to do a good job. Chip Griffin: All right, well I guess with that, we’ll let you keep your job for now, so Gini Dietrich: Well thanks. Thanks. I appreciate it. Chip Griffin: On that note, we will draw this episode to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

“What is your passion? Why are you doing this?” In this episode, Nick speaks with Vincent Wanga about the intersection of creativity, entrepreneurship, and leadership. Vince shares his unique journey through the creative industry, discussing the challenges and advantages of being an insomniac and how it has shaped his work ethic. What to listen for: Insomnia can be both a challenge and a competitive advantage. Leadership requires sacrifice and understanding of employee dynamics. Passion and purpose are essential for sustainable entrepreneurship. Vision is crucial for effective leadership and business success. Scaling a business requires preparation and understanding of resources. Failure is a necessary part of the learning process. Creatives must balance their artistic mindset with business skills. “Everything that I do is passion and purpose-rooted. And that should be your first mission.” When you anchor decisions in passion, you can more naturally stay motivated during the hard parts of the journey Purpose brings clarity, so you waste less time chasing things that don't matter. Leading with what lights you up often creates the most authentic and sustainable success. Passion-driven work tends to attract the right people and opportunities without forcing it. Starting with purpose sets the tone for how you show up. “Creatives have a visionary mindset. So why can’t creatives be those same CEOs? We just lack the business acumen.” Creativity is the foundation of innovation. Many creatives underestimate how transferable their skills are to leadership. Visionary thinkers often make better long-term strategists than traditional operators. When creatives embrace structure and systems, they become unstoppable leaders. About Vincent Wanga Vince is a dynamic international design thought leader, creative keynote speaker, award-winning creative and executive, author of “The Art of Direction,” serial entrepreneur, and experienced brand consultant with an exceptional range of expertise over a distinguished two-decade career. As former vice president and head of creative for one of the fastest-growing technology startups in North America, he oversaw corporate brand strategy and creative during unprecedented company growth from pre-Series A to an over $1 billion “unicorn” valuation. Vince lives in Washington, DC, and Asheville, NC, with his dog, Okello. When he is not working on new business ventures, he passionately travels the world, collecting creative inspiration at the finest boutique hotels rewards points can buy. https://www.vincentwanga.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/vincent-wanga/ Resources: Check out other episodes about creativity and entrepreneurship: Creativity Within Us All With Joe Tertel Post Traumatic Growth, When Trauma Makes You Stronger And More Creative With Christian Ray Flores Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Send Nick an email or schedule a time to discuss your podcast today! https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/contact/ Thank you for listening! Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089 Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/ Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA Guest Inquiries right here: podcasts@themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show” Click Here To View The Episode Transcript Nick McGowan (00:01.507)Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Vince Wanga. Vince, how you doing today? Vincent Wanga (00:11.372)I’m doing all right, Nick. I’m looking forward to our conversation and thanks for having me on. Nick McGowan (00:15.618)Yeah, absolutely. I’m excited, man. I think this is gonna be fun. I know there’s a lot that you’ve been through, a lot that you’ve done. One of the biggest reasons why I wanted to have you on the show was to be able to talk about creativity and how it ties into us as people, but also into the systems that we’re in, like the capitalistic system, our family systems, all those things. I grew up as a creative in a… not a typical creative house, so to say. So it felt a little weird, but that was the system that I was in. And then you get into jobs, you get into your career, and like, how do you do all that stuff? And that was one of the things that really stood out to me about having you on. So I’m gonna stop talking. Why don’t you kick us off? Tell us what you do for a living, and what’s one thing that most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre? Vincent Wanga (01:00.142)Well, thank you. I am in a weird place in my career because I’m transitioning. I have been a creative at the highest levels and the lowest levels for 20 years. Started as an intern, worked my way up through the agency world, stints as a freelance independent operator working for clients all over the world to owning my own agency and having that unique experience as a business owner and operator. and all the responsibilities that come with managing employees and being responsible for payroll and profit and loss and the other side of the industry, as well as becoming a senior executive and top 100, well, first 100 employees for a billion dollar tech startup and a crazy transformational journey. So I only preface that to say I’ve done it all in so many different industries. I’ve worked with so many different sectors, in-house, freelance. agency, you name it in the creative sector, I’ve done it. And I think that offers me a lot of perspective and advice that I can offer to people, whether you’re creative or not, particularly in the aspects of leadership, which is something I really focus on at this point in my career. But as I mentioned, I’m in a major transition away from creative and more into my real core ethos, which is entrepreneurship and taking all that creative talent, marketing, business acumen into my own businesses and consulting and other opportunities to really express my creativity in a different way. So it’s a really exciting paradigm for me. As far as something that’s really unique about me, I could wax philosophic on that. But I think the most unique thing is I am an insomniac. I get an inhuman amount of sleep and it has been a very difficult, like physical manifestation in my life because that’s not healthy, but it has been an incredible. competitive advantage in my career, where I’m able to work day and night and create businesses on a weekend and maximize my time. But as I get older, the other side of the coin starts catching up and trying to figure out how to adjust as I move forward is a new paradigm I’m dealing with. But that’s one of many unique things about me. Nick McGowan (03:16.459)Wow, I’m really glad that you consider that a unique thing. that you see that as a… there’s kind of a silver lining that you look at that instead of some people saying like, well I just… I’m struggling with this thing. It sounds like even the personality that you have, like you’ll go, well I am kind of struggling but it is what it is and this is what it is. Then I could do something with it. And it’s funny how as you get older, things will shift and change just across the board. I mean we could have a whole fucking episode just about like the specific changes that happen from your knees and your back and the way you think about things. or whatever you don’t mean I wonder at times with the people that are insomniacs that it’s something that they actually kind of crave and it’s like a mental thing where like I want to keep going and I think about it from this perspective In the human design way I’m a generator and I have to use all of my energy every day So by the end of the day there are times where I’m like I’m totally done. It’s nine o’clock at night I guess I’ll go to sleep because I’m done for the day and like all the energy’s out other times It’s like three or four in the morning and it is what it is But for the people that… Nick McGowan (04:27.617)can hear that and say, well, you’re just trying to hustle and just trying to use all that to get ahead and do the grind and all that stuff. I’m reading between the lines and a little bit I know about you so far, that’s not the case with you. So it’s more of one of those like, I do these things because I’m led to do these things, but I also have a really hard time sleeping. So how do you manage that going through each day and saying like, all right, well, I got whatever amount of sleep and my body needs more, but I also have a lot of mental energy where it’s like you can feel the physical of like, man, I’m just fucking dragging. But my brain’s still going and like that must take a toll on you. I could imagine, you know, you have a week of that. Most people would just be driven insane. So how do you how do you manage that? Vincent Wanga (05:12.344)Yeah, and I think, you know, this reminds me of that. I think it was a New Yorker editorial cartoon that had a building in Manhattan with lights on. And it said these three lights are either a drug dealer, serial killer or creative. Right. We’re the only ones up at 3 a.m. So I don’t think it’s as unique within the creative realm. But I think what makes me unique is the duality that I’m up all night in human hours, but I’m also functional in the morning. Like I’ve stayed up for 72 hours before. Nick McGowan (05:25.854)Yeah. Nick McGowan (05:37.93)Hmm. Vincent Wanga (05:40.718)on deadlines and things that push beyond human norms and are completely unhealthy, but have also, again, like I said, been an advantage historically in my career. think the way my brain is wired, and I think a lot of critics can resonate with this, is I’m my most creative and intellectual at night. I could spend the same amount of time and energy between nine to five on the same thing, and that… You know, error of time, I could achieve better results in an hour at 3am. It’s just the way these ideas flow in my mind. It’s the same mindset for anyone who can’t relate where like CEOs get up early in the morning and take a bike ride or do a run. And then they come back to the office and now they got a new product idea that everybody’s got to scramble to do. It’s the CEO brain, but it just kicks on at the wrong time. but it is, it is a burden, because it’s not healthy. And unfortunately there’s, there’s Nick McGowan (06:30.472)You Vincent Wanga (06:39.982)long-term cognitive effects that happen on that and there’s a diminishing return. But I think the most important point here is that I didn’t want to be this way. This is something that evolved from my artist background where I would the only time I had to myself and peace and quiet to create was at night. It started kind of rewiring my brain and then I went to college long story short got kicked out because of money and found myself with my career over before it even started. So I had to hustle and work twice as hard as everybody else just to get started. I started at a deficit. So I always maximize my time in order to try to achieve the results that I needed to get back into the industry. And then the third thing I think people can resonate with is if you’re an entrepreneur, it’s this paranoia when you go to sleep and you don’t want to wake up with bills. You don’t want to wake up with problems. You just want to stay up and solve everything that you can. you could have $10,000 in your bank account for that week and still feel insecure. And I think that just keeps me up at night constantly hustling and hoping that that hustle prevents the worst case scenario from happening. So it’s just this convolutions of things that are part of my experiences and my mindset. But it has been an advantage up until about now where I’m kind of paying the health effects of it, but it’s helped me become incredibly successful. And I think that’s a unique. perspective for me. Nick McGowan (08:09.086)I love when conversations head this way. I’ll ask that question every single episode. So everybody listens. They’re used to that question being asked. But I love when that question invokes us going down a different path for the conversation. Obviously, we were going to talk about creativity and leadership, and that just jives with us both. But that’s a really important thing, I think, to get into because you had neural pathways that were literally changed. And you created these paths so, so many years ago saying, like, everybody leave me the hell alone. Great, you’re all asleep. Everybody’s left me alone. I get to do the thing I want to do. And then you turn that, especially as an agency, for anybody that’s been in any sort of agency, imagine running around with your hair on fire, 15 other people having their hair on fire, and somebody just yelling at you constantly, and you’re constantly late on things that you’re actually pretty much on time for with your projects. And that’s like a typical Tuesday in most agencies. And that will drive you Vincent Wanga (08:41.592)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (09:08.848)to have more those neural pathways change because then you have to do things at night. Dude, I’ve been in the same spot where it’s like we have this thing coming up, somebody sent this thing back to me and it’s time for me to QA it or just basically give it once through. Seven hours later you have to do a complete re-haul or whatever and from a leader’s perspective you have to love on that person and help them and work through them. You can’t just go and physically slap them in the back of head and go, the fuck? That’s my first question, you know? So as a creative, I’m right there with you. think a lot of us do have that. Nocturnal energy almost to be able to create but I wonder if a lot of that does come from like when you were in middle school or high school like Just everybody leave me alone. Like when your parents tell you like go to your room. You’re like, thank God awesome now Will you all just stay can I lock the door and like just paint or whatever? I want to do and then that turns into the the systems that we’re in that tell us you have to grind you have to hustle and I I just wonder about how many people are still stuck in that because they don’t see the patterns of, well, I’m having a hard time with this. Like, you see that there’s a pattern with you being an insomniac. But how do you actually combat that, work on that, and not drive yourself crazy each and every day, you know? Vincent Wanga (10:31.522)Yeah, I think that’s a challenge. I think there’s a few ways I can approach that question. One, I really loved your point about the sacrifice of leadership. I think a lot of people underestimate that. It’s like the swan analogy, where it’s calm and collected at the top, but your feet are vigorously swimming and kicking. I think people who are employees and check in nine to five and their check clears on Monday when it’s payday. don’t understand the sacrifice sometimes that their leadership have to make to make that happen. And part of that is that paranoia that we deal with every single day. You know, I also think, you know, I’m highly functional introvert. So I love the quiet time that that allows me to think and to process and to execute on. But I also love that quote. I hope I’m not misquoting them. I think it was by Warren Buffett who said it took me 10 years to be an overnight success. There is no skipping the grind, the hustle. Nick McGowan (11:13.436)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (11:25.959)Yeah. Vincent Wanga (11:28.258)the sacrifice, know, your family hates you and you don’t see people enough and your friends are wondering if you’re okay. And that’s what it takes to build business, to build legacy, to build anything. So whether I had this unique deposition to work on godly hours or not, I think people find the will in the way because there’s no shortcuts around that to success. And that’s what you got to do. And if you’ve got a nine to five job, well, guess what? Now you got to work five to nine. and find the time that you need to execute on something. And I think it’s more of an entrepreneur’s brain than a creative’s brain. again, like I said, it’s been advantageous in ways and disadvantageous in others. Nick McGowan (12:07.259)I think they actually tie together though, the creativity and the entrepreneurship. I’ve met, god I can’t even put numbers to the amount of entrepreneurs I’ve met over the course of time, but I could probably say in one hand that the people that weren’t really creative and… Vincent Wanga (12:17.667)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (12:24.125)definitely told me like I am not creative at all. But then when you look at their processes, how they handle situations, all of it is just oozing creativity. They’re just not creative in the medium of painting or graphic design or web or whatever it is, but they’re still being creative in how they handle it. Shit, even leaders that are like, okay, well I know if I yell at you as a creative, you’re not gonna do the work that you need to do and you’re probably gonna hate it here. So how do I talk to you nicely about it? That is a creative approach. approach to it where you’ve been in spots, I’ve been in spots where somebody clearly didn’t take that spot and they just yelled at you about the thing because they’re hurt or they’re upset and they can’t manage themselves and they’re just diving it at you. But there is a lot of creativity that ties into that. And I think there’s a lot of people that talk about being an entrepreneur with really a hobby in a sense and not understanding that basic principles of entrepreneurship is you just have various means of income and you just work on things as a creative. You can sit down and work on things for six hours and you think, shit, I was doing this for two hours, but six hours later, I’ve been standing here, I’ve been working through this thing. And I want to dive deeper into this because I don’t want people to think that you’re saying to them, you just need to grind. No matter what you’re feeling, what you’re doing, just shut up and grind. That’s not the case. But how do you balance that? Because I know people that literally they take that ethos and just say, well, this is who I am. And it’s in a It’s a false way for them instead of being able to say like this is who I am because man I’m just so passionate about this thing that I eat sleep and dream this because this is my purpose in the world instead of saying well the system tells us this and my god I got a mortgage and these mouths to feed and whatever else it’s like you have to shift from that so how do you shift from that? How did you? Vincent Wanga (14:15.714)Man, I think that’s such a good point. I think too many people get enamored with the grind part, right? That’s what they teach you in investment banking. That’s what they teach you in all these other segments. Just grind and the reward will come and they’ll dangle this carrot in front of you that somehow disappears on your journey, right? Entrepreneurship’s very similar. And I’ll just say, this is the hardest shit in the world, like next to raising a child. Like it is incredibly difficult and that’s… Nick McGowan (14:37.446)Yeah. Vincent Wanga (14:42.102)what discourages most people. But I think the point that you made that was really excellent is you first have to have a purpose. What is your passion? Why are you doing this? Never have I thought when I’m in an entrepreneurial pursuit and I’m working, you know, 18 hours a day, did I ever feel burnt out? Isn’t that interesting that I can go to a typical corporate job and after five hours just can’t wait to leave, but I’ll work nonstop on my own thing and never feel burnt out. I have stress maybe related to money or something. but it’s not work stress. And I think that’s because everything that I do is passion and purpose rooted. And that should be your first mission. Don’t do this thing because you think it’s going to make you rich. You know, start that brewery because you love beer, you love the science of beer, and that you realize that by getting into that business, you are now an agriculture. You’re a farmer. You need to know about hops and the process and supply chain and fermentation. And you are a chemist and you got to figure out the right, you know, balance in order to have the best beer in the world. Otherwise, don’t do it. Nick McGowan (15:11.93)Yeah. Nick McGowan (15:21.561)Hmm. Vincent Wanga (15:41.056)So I think people need to understand what’s your passion would start there. The grind is easy if you’re passion and purpose driven and don’t let that kind of blind you. Start with your passion and your purpose. And that’s really helped keep me balanced so that I make sure the most precious commodity I have right now at this age is my time. And I make sure that just like my money, I invested reasonably and responsibly and only things that really bring me value in return. I think my second point is The grind is should be front end, you know, where your typical nine to five and there’s no wrong path is something you progressively invest in. And at the end, around 65 years old, you get your benefit and you get to go, you know, travel and live in Florida and do whatever you want with your life and retirement. Entrepreneurship is different. You literally grind for three years. The first year you’re just getting established. The second year you’re trying to become profitable. That third year, if you make it that far, you might actually thrive and have a business. And unless you’re paying yourself, Like you said, it’s just a hobby. So you have to be serious about this, understand the business fundamentals, but also understand for three years you’re in the suck and you have to work and work hard. And if you’re passionate and purpose driven, it won’t feel like a burden. And then you get your reward where all of a sudden you have enough profit to hire a COO or even a CEO as a founder to run your business and employees and your scaling and it gets easier. So you just have to understand the different philosophies between a nine to five and entrepreneurial pursuit. and make sure you’re passion and purpose driven and that will really help you keep balanced in this kind of crazy lexicon that is working like we do. Nick McGowan (17:17.338)Yeah, especially here in the States. We work much more than other people, but then there are other countries that… It’s the system that they’re in and how they go through it. I think one of things that you pointed out that really stood out to me was how when you take that approach of the passion and the purpose and you’re doing those things, you’re gonna work so much more on that because you’re fired up about it instead of doing whatever reports or whatever BS meetings or whatever you’re doing at nine to five. And you can just keep working on these things. But as you do that, you really start to stretch that muscle. So it’s like you’re able to handle things in year two, year three differently than you could in year one or even year two, let’s say, because everything starts to stack up. So in a very black and white way, for the most part, I think the people that listen to the show are leaders, at least in what they do, if not entrepreneurs, and there are a lot of entrepreneurs that are already in their business. But the people that think about, want to get out of my job, I want to get into a business, if you’ve got to go through that work anyway, and you’re just going to basically jump in a boat and go down that river. Don’t you want to go down the river with the stream instead of trying to fight up it like you’re currently doing in your nine to five? And it’s like, how do you then take that approach and say, all right, well, this is what I want. And there is a difference between passion and purpose. I think we have a seed of purpose that’s within us and there are ways that we get to show our passion with that purpose. But if you can tie that stuff together, you’re almost unstoppable. There’s shit that’s going to happen, but you’re going to get through that. When you talk to different Vincent Wanga (18:34.254)Sure. Right. Nick McGowan (18:58.138)from people about that sort of stuff and tying those two together. What’s the way that you can kind of put that into a vision to be able to show this is where these two pieces kind of can join? Vincent Wanga (19:06.818)Yeah, and I think for me to tell a little story, I was a senior designer art director at an agency in Minneapolis at the time. And I was getting really good insights on the business side of creative from the particular owner I was working with. He was very transparent about those things. So I found out how much he was profiting per employee, particularly me. And that didn’t match up with my salary. Now he’s a business owner. has every right to a profit. That’s not what I’m questioning. What I said is that my value is significantly higher than I thought it was this whole time. I thought it was defined by my salary. And the funny thing about these nine to five jobs, and I’m not knocking them, we all have done it and are having to do it, but they pay you just enough to kill your dreams. You know, I’m sure you’ve heard that before and just enough to be comfortable. And when I realized the potential there, I started taking advantage of that, you know, five to nine time that overnight time. I started, you know, freelancing and getting clients. And when I compared the numbers, I realized if I went full time with my own hustle, I could triple my income and not triple my work hours. So that was the passion part, right? So what that did is it led into my purpose and the purpose was, and I think this is really important is oftentimes when you get into entrepreneurship, Money should never be your motivation. Money is a reward that comes down later. It should be rooted deeper than that. But if you can tie your entrepreneurship with your lifestyle, your ideal lifestyle and outcome, that is the greatest gift in earth. So for example, imagine you’re a snowboarder and you just want to go to Vail and Whistler and, you know, go down the most amazing double black diamond mountains and make that a part of your lifestyle. Imagine starting a business. where you could be in that community and make profit. Now you’re in your ideal lifestyle, your ideal community, and you have a business that helps fund that. And that was kind of my motivation. So I am now independent, tripling my income. I’m working half as much. I’m able to travel the world. And as long as I have wifi, I can continue to make money indefinitely in whatever country I stay in. It was the most incredible lifestyle of my life. And there’s some limits to that we can talk about later, but it gave me this purpose. Vincent Wanga (21:29.1)and passion combined to continue to progress. And I think people just really need to identify not just passion and purpose, but what is that ideal lifestyle that you want this to lead to? What is that outcome? What is that ambition that you have? If you don’t have that goal and you’re just starting out, what are you doing? You’re making trinkets. You’re not getting paid. You have a very expensive hobby that’s probably gonna cost you your family. So you really have to understand at the end of the day, this is a business. You have to have business fundamentals and run it accordingly. And I think you’ll be in a much better place than just going on some wild adventure because you don’t want to wake up at 9 a.m. I promise you, you’ll be disappointed by entrepreneurship if that is the case. Nick McGowan (22:08.812)Yeah, and it’s interesting because that’s like, there are like shades to that almost. You know, like there are times where you call it like we can’t sleep or we have a hard time because we’re thinking we got to pay for this. We got this thing coming in. There’s this thing and I’m sure there’s a left hook that’s going to come out of nowhere and like whatever and you just kind of manage through that stuff. You work through it. But if you are in a better mental spot because of the passion and purpose that you have to do these things, you can actually handle those things instead of just being crippled by it. I’ve thought many different times about how many people got into podcasting during COVID because they were like, what the fuck? I have nobody to talk to. I don’t know what to do right now. I guess I’ll start a podcast or people that became a coach and are like, I guess I’ll become coaches. And if you look at the numbers, they all skyrocketed. then quickly after that just shot down. So many people just couldn’t do it, didn’t want to do it, didn’t have the skills or whatever. And ultimately it wasn’t right for them to be able to do it. Now there are lots of people that stuck with it. I started this in 2014. Vincent Wanga (22:47.256)Mm-hmm. Nick McGowan (23:15.145)So I wasn’t one of those ones that just started it in 20, but I remember thinking that too. Like well now I’m stuck at the house. What am gonna do? And had friends that I talked to and then just came a podcast and whatever else from there. But being able to actually understand like you’re going to start to take those steps and it doesn’t all have to happen at once. So even with the stuff you’re saying like you get to travel, you make money, you do these things. To somebody if they’re listening on the surface they’re gonna go okay cool you’re just another one of those guys who just like pushes this thing and says I live the best life in the world and work. Vincent Wanga (23:22.648)Right. Yep. Nick McGowan (23:45.148)two hours a day and I harvest butterflies and get four billion dollar homes. Like it’s not what we’re saying. But this is a stacked upon process. Like I talked to people at times, I had somebody on recently it was like man you were in like Idaho and Montana and doing this and you travel and it’s like yeah but this has been a work in progress. This isn’t just one of those things like last Tuesday. It’s like you know what fuck everything else and we’re gonna travel we’re gonna do this thing. It’s like you have to build upon those things so you have to take those initial steps. So for somebody trying to figure out right now. I hear what you guys are saying, I want to take these steps and I think I kind of know what I want to do but I’m afraid to do it as a creative saying I’m stuck in this system and I have to pay for things and I’ve built this whole big career and what do I do now? What advice do you give them? Vincent Wanga (24:35.496)well, the first thing is it’s mostly rooted in fear. Release your inhibition of fear because you will fail. You will fail big, you will fail small, you will fail often. I think what actually ironically makes me successful is my lack of fear of failure. I could write a whole thesis on failure and how that’s affected me. But the true reality is it’s been the greatest education of my life. More than a Harvard MBA could teach me going out there doing something really hard and failing or succeeding in that are immense lessons that you can apply to the next thing and you’ll fail a little bit less and apply to the next thing and fail a little bit less. And I just talked about earlier how your job posting a position where you, you don’t want to risk that comfortability to go out there and potentially fail, but you have to understand that’s part of the cycle and learning process that gets you to success. love that Japanese proverb, you know, fall down seven times, get up eight. That’s, that is, it’s a cliche, but it’s so true. You just have to. Nick McGowan (25:29.973)Hey. Vincent Wanga (25:35.192)get out there and fucking do it. And I think the other most important thing is people get into this journey and they’re not prepared for scale. They never think about it. I think they’re too absorbed in the lifestyle part. Like, okay, I get to work from home. I get to take my kids to baseball. This is great. I want to stay in this comfortable zone. If you’re too successful, if you fuck up, you actually have something that scales. Now you need employees. Now you need people to run your business. Nick McGowan (25:52.084)Yeah. Vincent Wanga (26:03.842)Now you need to redo your supply chain. Now things get more expensive. Now you got to pay attention to your margins. Nobody has that ambition. So always enter this with what is that ideal grand scale? If you’re just in this to just, you again, have this hobby mindset, you will fail and failure is okay, but you need to realize you’re building a business. What is the plan for scale? What is the grand ambition? What is the ideal circumstance you want to reach? And then what resources do you need to get there? I think the second most important thing is Choosing your business partner wisely. And I’m emphasizing business partner like it’s almost a requirement. Sure, you can get to a certain level by yourself. You know, there’s that saying, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. You need a partner. Nobody has expertise in everything. So figure out what your core competencies are. If you can’t, failure will do that for you. Figure out what you do enjoy and then go find a business partner who complements your skills or compensates for the things that you’re not skilled at. And together. that you and that person can build something really immense and double your time. Because I think the biggest dilemma, particularly in entrepreneurship, historically has been, how do you duplicate yourself? You get to a certain point, how do you find somebody else who will work as hard as you, who’s as motivated as you, who’s as passionate about you? And I think in this age of AI, it doesn’t take a founding team of six anymore. You, another competent person, and three AI agents can really get to a place where you can scale effectively and efficiently in three years. So you just have to think about the grand perspective and not treating it as a hobby. And I think that’s half the way to success and release that inhibition of failure. know the stakes get greater as we get older, but imagine, you know, I mentioned Warren Buffett earlier, if he thought that way, imagine if George Washington thought that way, if Martin Luther King thought that way, like anything worth doing is hard. So get over it, get out there and do it and fail. Take those lessons, apply it to the next thing until you succeed. Nick McGowan (28:01.332)I think something to point out with. George Washington, Buffett, anybody else. Like there are times where I bring up purpose and people are like, well, I don’t know if my purpose is supposed to be the next Steve Jobs or something. No, that was his. Let him have his. You do yours. George Washington, Buffett, everybody else had these thoughts of like, this is where I want to get to. This is what I want to do. But it wasn’t like, I’m going to do this because it’s deep in my heart that I’m going to become George Washington or Buffett or whatever else. They had to actually build upon those things. And there are people that just want to have a solo business. There are people that want to have a small business. And by small, I mean, you know, a few handful of employees, maybe they make millions of dollars, but like, it’s a group of a small group of people. There others that want to have a huge bustling business of hundreds of employees and all of that. But I think it’s important for us to actually talk to ourselves about, do you want it? Because you want the ego of purposes of, have all these employees. I have all these things. Look at the boat that I have that I never get into because I have to work and manage all these employees. What’s the actual purpose underneath that? And I think as a creative and the people that are creatives, we can rely on the creativity inside of us because that’ll always nudge us along. It’s sometimes really hard to listen to. I’m sure you’ve experienced some of that going through probably years where you’re like, it’s hard to listen to it. I’m being creative, but I’m not really being creative. You’re getting paid to be a creative, but you’re basically like churning things out or using of stuff and not really creating but everybody’s like well this looks amazing and you’re like I fucking hate it and I hate you and I hate all this stuff so leave me alone. So for people that are in that spot right now and really for the people that are on their path towards self mastery what sort of advice would you give to them? Vincent Wanga (29:47.938)Well, speaking specifically to creatives, I think you can relate. We have a very unique mindset when it comes to certain things. And I think people misdiagnose us that our advantage is somehow attached to our hands and the software and skills. It’s our mentality in the way that we think. For example, the way we solve problems are completely different. What most people would see as an obstacle, we see as a challenge and we use our creativity to get around it. With the systems that we build, the solutions that we build, that’s what we get paid for. So I think that is an invaluable skill when, whether it’s business or your nine to five is remembering that that is your core competency and your greatest value that you bring is your ability to uniquely solve problems. And that’s why we are employed in every single industry in the world and have survived all kinds of efforts to remove us from those industries. And they keep coming back to us because of that skillset. think in addition to that, you just have to really be prepared for change. And we are an adaptable force. Look at all of the journeys that we’ve been through from the digital revolution and the elimination of print to interactive and AI, all of these things we are at the bleeding, cutting edge of. So we are in a natural position to be early adapters, to see and flesh out these new emerging technologies and see if they’re viable or not, and then use them to our advantage in a competitive sense against some of our non-creative peers in order to thrive. it while others are being replaced by it. So I think we need to recognize our power in that context and use that to our advantage. I’ll also add that you look at the highest level of leadership, a CEO, right? They have immense powerful responsibilities, but the number one is to create vision. They create the vision like Steve Jobs saying, I want a thousand songs in your pocket. And then it trickles down to the rest to execute and to figure out how to make that vision a reality. So vision is a creative mindset. creatives have visionary mindset. So why can’t creatives be those same CEOs? We just lack the business acumen. And I think if I was a creative in that position, that’s the first thing I would balance and start studying is what business skills do I lack that can compliment this thing that is very rare, which is that creative mindset that could make me unstoppable in the marketplace. And I am on this mission in my life to help creatives become more entrepreneurial, to think more business minded because the hardest skill we already have. Vincent Wanga (32:15.498)So having that balance that yin and yang between the creativity and conceptual and the analytical and business mindset will really put you in a place where you will be much more successful than if you try to pursue anything with just one mindset or the other. Nick McGowan (32:30.736)Yeah, what a cool way to be able to put that too. It’s like just being resourceful in that sense. You know, if you think from a basic creative perspective, if you’re just sketching, we need paper or something to draw on. You need the pen or pencil or whatever. And then you need the time. You need these pieces to do these things. So any of these things are like, well, what pieces do I need? Even to the fact about the partners, it’s like, what am I lacking here? What am I not a 10 at? And what does somebody else attend at that I could even just Have some help with some people don’t want to take on partners. They want to do the business by themselves I think that’s where coaches mentors come into play to be able to say I’ve been through this and before here’s some suggestions Here’s how you can go about it. Even just that fact of like just reaching out and having some of those conversations There’s somebody that’s out there. There’s some information that’s out there and I I Don’t want everybody to just lean on AI and everybody’s gonna do whatever they’re gonna do, but I do think that atrophies things I use AI at times. I mean fucking everybody does. It’s more so just being pushed on us at this point. But not literally just saying, I’m just going to hand this thing off and not understand how it is. Like you pointed out earlier, if you want to have a brewery, you have to be all these different things. And if all that is too much for you, don’t do it. If you just want to be a money person, then sure, be a money person and never show up. Maybe go and have a beer every once in a while and that’s it. That’s a whole different story though. Like where the fuck did you get that money from? Did you create a business to do that? know, or some Vincent Wanga (34:00.134)Sure. Nick McGowan (34:00.451)somebody handed to you. But being able to point that out and understand the resources of that and then what you’re good, what you’re not good at, I think it’s really good stuff, man. So I appreciate you bringing that up. It’s been a pleasure having you on. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? Vincent Wanga (34:14.382)No, I really appreciate the conversation. Again, I speak all over the country and internationally. So if I’m in a conference in your area, please feel free to come up to me. And I love meeting new people, especially in different industries. In addition to that, have a website, VincentWongred.com, where you can see some of my other thought leadership across entrepreneurship, creative, design. Leadership is another thing I speak on often. I also have a book called The Art of Direction. personal perspectives on the path to creative leadership. So that is available through Amazon, Walmart, all the major online retailers and for special order at your bookstore. It’s a book about leadership. And I think that’s agnostic of just the creative industry and the unique, soft and hard skills that you need to make that leap that few people are prepared for. So it also very deeply personal and talks a little bit about my experiences and my journey and of course my failures and how that led to my success. And then you can also contact me on LinkedIn and Instagram through my website. Those are the primary ways you can get a hold of me. Nick McGowan (35:20.208)And again, it’s been pleasure having you on Vince. I appreciate your time. Vincent Wanga (35:23.478)Absolutely. Thank you,

Onboarding a new team member has turned into a very transactional process. In this episode, Tiff and Monica discuss how to add authenticity, connection, and engagement to the mix. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Welcome back. I am just so happy to have all of you. know there are so many people out there that support the Dental A Team in so many amazing ways. And you guys being here downloading these podcasts and having that little, I know Apple allows the like auto download. I always love that. Cause when I'm on flights, I can just, you know, podcast. But you guys being here.   pushing those through for us, being here to just support who we are, what we do is so truly incredible, whether you're a client, a future client, or someone who's just here to listen and you're like, ⁓ you know, never gonna sign up, we don't really have a preference of how you get to us. We just love that you're here. We wanna deliver all of the most amazing information that we possibly can. You might notice we share a lot of information, a lot of tips and tricks, a lot of like, I don't know, feel like, Monica, I feel like they're like.   secrets, trade secrets, right? And people are like, gosh, I'll just listen to your podcast. I'm like, fantastic, do that, do that. When you're ready for someone like Monica, who I have here with us today, you guys, to be like, I'm gonna push you a little bit further. She's here, we're here, and we're ready to help you get to that next level. And as I said, you guys, this is a truly, truly exciting day for us. I have Monica back on the podcast with me today. I am so excited to have you here, Monica. I know.   Monica Gomez (00:57) ⁓ yeah.   The Dental A Team (01:20) Previously, I've kind of given a good spiel of who you are and how we found you. And we got to record a podcast, if you haven't listened to it yet, about this really hiring tips and strategies. But there's so much to learn about Monica, her coaching style and who she is in that episode. So if you haven't listened to it yet, go do that. And as an introduction today, Monica, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here. And I just I'm excited to pick your brain. love I love watching.   I feel like I get to watch the flow of how thoughts come to you and it's just really fun and I love our time together. Thank you for blocking out your morning and being here with me this morning and Monica, how are you? How was your weekend? How's life? How's Monica?   Monica Gomez (02:05) ⁓ Life is great and I'm starting off my week with podcasting with you ⁓ and this is so fun. This is my second podcast and I'm so excited to be here. Our first one was really, there was a flow to it, right? It was a ⁓ great little conversation, valuable. We dropped lots of gems, you guys, so go listen to that podcast and I'm excited to be sharing this space again with you, Tish. Thank you for having me.   The Dental A Team (02:21) Yeah.   Thank you, thank you. I do love this and it actually makes me think this is like a little off topic here, but just for a smidgen of time. love the podcast space with you consultant ladies ⁓ on our team because I love that this is a space where I get to, I think I get to share how much I love you guys. Like how much admiration I have, how much I look up to you guys and get to like extract so much.   knowledge and input from you. And I think this is our space of like, truly having some connection time. And we have our one on ones, I mentioned that before, but those are so goal driven and work driven. It makes me think I love relationship and community. And I think that's something that humans are learning again, we're relearning that we need that. I think we lost that for a moment of time here recently and   in the years and we're coming back to that. You kind of don't know what you have until you lose it sometimes and we lost that space. And I think this is our space of true community. We do have our weekly meetings, we have our one-on-ones, we have our data-driven, work-driven time together, but the podcasting space is actually really special to me because I do get to, I get to get to like, want, we get to put you guys out there and I get to just spend this time with you.   And it makes me think you mentioned something on the last podcast that we had recorded together. You mentioned that intentional team time together and that like just clicked. As you're talking, like it clicked for me. This is our intentional time together and instilling that into, infusing that into the workplace. It's really special. And I want doctors and owners and leaders and anyone who's here, dental assistants, treatment coordinators, I don't care who you are. I want you to...   know from the bottom of my heart, this is a really special place and you don't need to go start a podcast unless you want to. But having that intentional time, like coffee time, like go in the break room and have coffee together and talk about your weekend. Like me getting to hear about Monica's family life and Charlie, her puppy, getting to know those pieces of you personally, it changes and it shifts our dynamic. So I wanted to highlight that because as you were speaking, I was like, my gosh, this is   Monica Gomez (04:44) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (04:57) something we haven't had yet because this is only our second podcast together, but that I know I do have with the other consultants and it just totally clicked for me because we just, think, mentioned that in the last one. So Monica, thank you for being here. Thank you for letting me say all that and for giving me this intentional time today.   Monica Gomez (05:15) Yeah, thanks, Tiff. Yeah, I think ⁓ this time together, we get to peek, a little peek behind the veil, right? And yeah, we do have a lot of connection time. It's structured time, right? But the value of unstructured time is just gold. is, ⁓ it builds trust, it builds ⁓ camaraderie, it builds affinity, it builds ⁓ an endearing, right? An endearing kind of sense of   The Dental A Team (05:23) Yeah.   Yeah.   Monica Gomez (05:44) of viewing the other person in a different light. So yeah, I think this is a powerful, like meaningful time. I agree with you. I agree with everything that you said. This is definitely a special magical space. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (05:53) Yeah.   Yeah, thank you.   Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. And again, if you didn't listen to the last podcast, I know this is the third or fourth time we're saying it. You should. This is kind of I think Monica actually helped me choose today's topics that she wanted to speak on. I think they actually naturally flow together. So I would maybe even listen to this one after the last one or listen to this one. And then I don't care which order you do it in, but listen to both of them is my is my point here, because today we really we're going to talk about onboarding.   Monica Gomez (06:07) You   The Dental A Team (06:28) And you can onboard anyone, but I think maybe when we add in onboarding the right team member, because the last podcast we recorded was really how to hire the right team member and hiring with intentionality and meaning behind it. And the onboarding, Monica, I think has to flow off of that. If we're not continuously showing up as the person we wanted to hire, like we talked about in the last one.   If we show up in the interview space and we're like, this is who I want you to be, but then we're onboarding and we're like, meh, meh. We're like, this is boring person and we want somebody who's dynamic and fun and engaging and speaking to the patients, but we're like, not that person. I think it makes a huge difference. So Monica, as you've trained people, as you've onboarded, you've trained practices to do this, what are some key highlights that you like to infuse into the onboarding process?   Monica Gomez (07:16) Yeah, great topic. And I agree, this one goes hand in hand with our previous podcast. know, onboarding traditionally has been very much transactional, right? Here's your cubby, here's what you do, here's where you sit, here's how you answer the phones, right? We've got to move. Well, there's a part of it that has to be transactional because you have to learn, you know, what your job is and, you know, the daily to do's.   But I think if we lead with that, it's a mistake. ⁓ As I mentioned before, and we talked about how the workforce has changed, ⁓ and we're leading with connection and engagement and authenticity and all those components that make us unique, I think we, I really feel that we need to move.   from a transactional place to a transformational or transcendental. ⁓ It's gotta be more about behaviors, right? And how we wrap our arms around like this new person that's joining our little family, right? How would you like to be welcomed into a team that would make you feel welcome and received with open arms and warmth? That's how we have to welcome our new people.   The Dental A Team (08:19) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (08:37) You know, we've invested so much time and energy in interviewing our job post, our, you know, filtering our candidates, interviewing, that whole hiring process, offer letter, the whole nine yards. And then we just throw them in, sink or swim. We've got to add, we've got to be intentional and we've got to add more value to the onboarding piece because, you know, people sometimes are left thinking like, gosh,   The Dental A Team (08:55) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (09:06) this is not the place that I thought it was gonna be, right? Like make it the place that you post it on your job ad, right? Like create, you get to be the creator. You're the co-creator, right? This is your platform. Like what do you wanna create for your new people, right? And I think transaction.   It's always part of our industry and in the workforce, right? There is a transactional piece to working. ⁓ But again, that humanist, right? And so one great tip, I'll start with one tip and I'll turn it over to you, Tiff. ⁓ One great tip is have a welcome packet for your team, right? A t-shirt, their name tag, little, you know, if you picked up little sprinkles of who they are and what they like in the interview, like,   The Dental A Team (09:53) Mm.   Monica Gomez (10:04) put together a nice little welcome basket for them, a pen post-it, a nice little saying. I think that's, wow, I mean, that's super impactful on their first day, right? Like, welcome to the team and have everybody go around at Morning Huddle and just give a little shout out as, you know,   The Dental A Team (10:12) Yeah.   I love that. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (10:31) how valuable it is to have a new team member. I think that's super simple and important.   The Dental A Team (10:37) Yeah, I love that. think you hit on something really important there. It's really that feeling of being welcomed, coming into a new space is, I mean, we don't even like going to a party unless we know, a dinner party, unless we know everybody who's gonna be there, right? We're like, I only know two people. Like, is that enough? Right? I got a text from a friend the other day that was, know, or not the other day, it's been a bit, but for, you know, Halloween. And then she's like, I gotta go to this thing with my husband. And like, I don't know anybody. And I was like, okay, like this is, we're all coming into this dinner party not knowing.   anybody else, even if you've done working interviews, you still don't know them. So I love that really just toning in on the personal piece and the relationship, because if you can have a relationship with them, you can, you know, build that camaraderie just from the get go. I think they actually retain information and onboard quicker as well. So I love that. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (11:26) It's hard being an adult, you know? It's hard being an adult. And I think   in the practice, you know, just circling back to our topic on our previous podcast, fun is really important. We forget to have fun as adults, you know? And gosh, you know, think of it like you're in the sandbox again. See through young eyes, see through young eyes. Put those lenses on and just remember what it is to just play in the sandbox.   with your friends, right? And have like that pureness of intention and that pureness of heart and spirit. I think it's just easier when you can kind of connect to that space to welcome others in. And they'll say, I love that you're here. Welcome to the team. How can I make your week and your integration easier? I think that's a gem right there. That's...   The Dental A Team (11:56) Yeah. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Monica Gomez (12:23) super valuable for the person receiving and also for the person that's delivering.   The Dental A Team (12:28) I agree. I was thinking,   as you said, you said it's hard being an adult And I thought, yeah, I remember just being like, do you want to swing? Like, there's two, like, do you want to swing with me? Like, that's, we don't do that anymore. Yeah. It was easy. Now it's like, we go to, we're in the same Pilates class 10 times and I'm still like, do I talk to you? Do I not talk to you? And it's like, goodness gracious. So yeah, like just, do you want to swing? Like just, let's just have fun with it. I love that. ⁓   Monica Gomez (12:34) Yeah.   It's easier to fix ones.   The Dental A Team (12:53) And so Welcome Packet is beautiful. if you guys like put it together, it could even be like ⁓ a welcome note card. Like, hey, excited to have you. Like everybody, we write thank you cards to our patients or we write condolence cards or happy birthday or happy anniversary. Like, congrats on your wedding. We write these cards and I've seen them in multiple practices. So I know a lot of people do them. You pass them around to all the team members or the happy birthday for the team members, right? Everybody writes on the card and it's like this little message.   You could do it as simply as that. Like, hey, Monica's starting on Monday, guys. Like, it's Thursday. Let's wrap this up. Let's get this like welcome card together and a candy bar or a little ⁓ bouquet of flowers, like four carnations. Like, it doesn't have to be difficult. It doesn't have to be robust or like over the top. Just speak to who you are and who they are. I love that. And Monica, something you said was we were kind of prepping for this was you don't have to have it all together. And I loved that because we've saw many podcasts on   Monica Gomez (13:33) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (13:49) operations manual and it's fantastic. And I agree with an operations manual and practices come to us and they're like, Monica, we need an operations manual, help us build it. It's like, okay, yes. And it's super cool. Also, it's not a requirement. You can onboard, you can train, you can have them help you build the operations manual while you're training. Don't hold yourself back from onboarding someone successfully.   Monica Gomez (14:01) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (14:17) because you feel like things are missing and I love that you said that. Now, on that same aspect, a job description, super simple, to put together a job description of who they are, how they show up and what their targets are per position and then build off of that to say like, hey, in the first week, two weeks, 30 days and then kind of go from there. Now, implementally, how do you build the action out for...   for teams like that, because I'm an aggriance. I love an operations manual. I think it's great, but it's not end all be all. And just because we get through an operations manual and your consulting journey does not mean you're done. You're set for success and nothing's ever going to happen. I think there's a lot of, we could go on a tangent about operations manuals. We won't today. But how do you do that with your practices you're working with?   Monica Gomez (15:06) Yeah, I mean, I think people ⁓ absorb information and they learn differently. And I think it's really important that we hit on all three things. It's auditory, visual, and kinesthetic. The operations manual or the training manual is valuable, Because it's a resource that you can go to to reference and get a refresher. ⁓ But that shouldn't be your onboarding technique, right? That's like, OK, here you go. Here's the written. ⁓   The Dental A Team (15:31) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (15:35) proof or reference book of what you already learned, right? It is the outcome of your training. ⁓ I think, you know, onboarding can be simple and we make it complicated because everything has to be in writing nowadays and there's value to that. ⁓ But really your team, the biggest piece of ⁓ an employee staying within those 90 days is how we onboarded them.   The Dental A Team (15:49) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (16:04) Did we just give them manual or written instructions and say, okay, here it is, go do it? Or did we say, okay, this week, part of your onboarding is that you're gonna spend time with every single person in this practice in the various roles, including the doctor. You're gonna sit in and listen to the exams and the x-ray take and the hygienist. And you're really gonna understand all the makings of this practice.   it's important that we understand everyone's role and how we contribute to the entire team. So I always recommend that you hire someone and the first three days, break it up. Three, by the way, is a magical number for me. I love everything in series of threes. So three is easy to remember, three things versus five or even four, right? So three days in each role.   And have that person that's learning write down the most impact. What did you learn in these three days sitting with a hygienist? Or what do you want to know more about? This will spark their curiosity. Don't give them a script. Allow them to of grasp the topics and let their curiosity ⁓ be the lead. Take the lead on.   Here's what I want to know more about, or I don't really understand this, or gosh, I didn't know that, right? ⁓ And that goes for experienced employees or people that are new to the industry, right? That's my recommendation. Allow them to spend three days in every single role, like the journey of onboarding, right? Like, I think it's super valuable. And then... ⁓   The Dental A Team (17:33) Yeah.   Fisher.   Monica Gomez (17:53) Again, they could be kind of co-creating your manual with you because what they bring back, the knowledge that they bring back, chances are somebody else is going to have that same curiosity or those same questions, right? Yeah, I think that's a really simple tip. And those also that feedback could be part of your 30, 60, 90 day growth plans. And here's what you're really great at, right? I always like to look at   The Dental A Team (18:05) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (18:23) Think about the growth plan like a sandwich, right? Like there's the beginning, the middle, and the end. And so here's where you are, right? ⁓ Here's where, ⁓ actually, here's your role. Here's where you currently are, and here's where we would like for you to be. And like, what are the steps to get there, right? That should be part of your growth plan, your 30, 60, 90 day growth plan, along with the job description. Yeah, I think, you know,   using the job description like you mentioned as a tool, right, to guide people and also for us to understand like, what are they really great at? What are they really proud of, you know, in this job role? And what do they want to know more about? I think ⁓ I ⁓ one great way to kind of get familiar with someone's knowledge, experience and their desire to grow or learn more about is take the   The Dental A Team (19:04) Thank   Monica Gomez (19:21) the skills and ability portion of the job role and say, tell me three things that you're really great at, that you're really proud of, that you just are an expert in. And then three things that ⁓ you wanna know more about, not weak, right? Things that you don't, let's take that, negative verb out of it, just say three things that you're curious about or three things that you wanna sharpen your skills at. That tells you a lot about their qualifications. ⁓ And I'm really an advocate of ⁓   The Dental A Team (19:24) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. Yes.   Monica Gomez (19:51) eliminating the over-educating and over-matching. This exercise is a great way to kind of level set who your person is, like what's in their brain, right? Like, are you curious about? So I think that's part of like the co-creation of the onboarding and the collaboration, right? This is a partnership, we're in this together. What can I do to help you help me?   The Dental A Team (20:02) Yeah.   Yeah.   Monica Gomez (20:16) and stay. think it's intentional and it is ⁓ structured in a way that's unstructured.   The Dental A Team (20:29) Yeah, for sure. And I think that what you're saying there that co-creation also makes me think of ⁓ like collaborating and co-creating with the people who are going to be doing the training. So if you're not the one who's going to be, if you're an office manager and you're not training this person hands on 100 % of the time, then enlist the team members too. So if this person's job is   I don't know, front desk check-in and she or he has this laundry list of 20 different things that they've got to learn in the series of these 90 days or 30 days or however long you parcel that out for who's helping with those things and allow them to co-create too. And I think what you're saying, the three days, it's like, great, you're learning to answer the phones and confirm appointments. That's what you're doing for three days. You're answering the phone. So you're answering the phones and you're delivering that   patient to whomever, right? You're transferring that patient to whomever they need and you're doing confirmation calls for three days. And then stack on top of that, anything, something you said there, the co-collaborating and the kind of doing it together, but also then enlisting outside perspectives to see what flows together. Because a lot of times our job doesn't necessarily start to end flow in this perfect, beautiful space. Sometimes it's like,   well, I'm doing phones, but I'm doing emails, and I'm doing phones, but I'm checking patients out. And those are very like stark contrasting pieces. And so if we're like jumping them around or trying to do it in what a day might look like, that's very confusing. And it's overwhelming because your brain doesn't operate in that way. You can and you will and you will multitask and they will get it. But when you're learning, you've got to learn succinctly in a flow that makes sense. So you can't start with   Monica Gomez (22:03) and overwhelming.   The Dental A Team (22:18) checking a patient out if you also want them to be doing confirmation calls. Like you've got to find, like you said, your start, your middle and your end and making sure that those pieces flow together and having that outside perspective I think can definitely help. Something you mentioned was those like check-ins. So you're having those conversations with them. So that in itself right there, you guys, if you're not, I want you to pull these action items out too because that in itself, that's an action item. So make sure you've got job descriptions.   make sure you've got some semblance of flow on the pieces that they're responsible for, and then you're checking in with them. And I think frequent check-ins are really smart. We do them in our company with onboarding and we continue them kind of as long as we possibly can forevermore. We do these check-ins because I wanna know where they're at. don't, not necessarily like, did you do this thing? I wanna know like Monica, where are you at today? ⁓   Personally, who are you and where are you at today? Like are we still in alignment because that's the space I think Especially being new to a team. I'm not gonna say I'm not always gonna say hey, I Didn't get this or hey, I need help or hey I'm falling behind or I feel overwhelmed or this is a lot because I don't want to look like I can't do it But if my manager or my lead is like, hey check in how are things going? And I'm like, I think I'm getting it. I think I need more time on this   That's way better than being like, I'm overwhelmed. Like that feels better to me to be like, cool, there's space to have a conversation about this. I'm not complaining or feeling weak or looking as though I can't accomplish something. You are giving the space as a check-in to just be like, hey, tell me where you're at. Okay, great, take the space, take the time, go learn it. Or if I need to show you again, I can.   Monica Gomez (24:08) Yeah, I love that. I love everything that you said. think, ⁓ you know, words create our story, right? And so if we're asking, like, how's it going? ⁓ Are you struggling with anything? ⁓ Our minds automatically go to that negative place, right? So you get to be the creator of the script.   Right. And so if we're saying, Hey, by the way, I heard you answering the phone start, like, listen for the good stuff, right? The good behaviors. Gosh, you were amazing. Greeting that patient. my gosh. I am so proud of you. You are totally getting this and you know, how's everything else going? Right. If you start with that excitement and something positive, that person's already in that positive mindset and it's all about mindset. Right. And if we're concerned that they're not getting it, they're not going to get it.   assume that they are, assume that they are getting it. So gosh, you are, I know you're doing amazing. Tell me all the good stuff. Start.   The Dental A Team (25:10) Yeah, assume good intent, right? Always. We see that constantly. Assume   good intent. I think, Monica, you saying this right here makes me think.   Relationships are relationships, I say that all the time. They just look a little bit different. Like my relationship with Erin is a little bit different than my relationship with you, but my communication skills are gonna be super, they're gonna be the same with the right words, right? So I'm not gonna, communication is communication. And so what we do is we say, okay, this is how you sell a treatment plan. This is how you project to your patients to get them to schedule. And you always start with a positive. You don't ask for a review by saying,   how did everything go today? You say like, oh my gosh, that seemed, you how amazing was your appointment today? Like you're infusing these words in there to get the mindset, but then we don't copy and paste that always into everything that we do. And I think how you show up for anything is how you show up for everything. So show up for your team the same as you're expecting your team to show up for your patients because that's going to translate. And if you're like, oh, it seemed like a,   Gosh, today was a chaotic day, how did you do? It's always chaos, we're in dentistry. Dentistry is chaotic, your days are gonna be crazy. Life is chaotic, you're right, it's always going to be crazy. So saying that, gosh, was, woo, that was a rough day. How are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and I'm feeling like I made a really bad decision coming here. I think you're spot on is my point there. So that was beautiful, thank you.   Monica Gomez (26:22) Yeah. And life is chaotic. Period, right? Life is chaotic.   Yeah. And, you know, I when employees share difficult, like a difficult day, you know, like, ⁓ I had a ⁓ client last week share that their new hire said, ⁓ gosh, maybe we shouldn't, you know, ⁓ schedule two crowns back to back because that was really hard. And, you know, my back was hurting. And so, ⁓ you know, the doctor was like, she's already complaining. I'm like, well, okay. Well, how did you respond? Right. Because   The Dental A Team (27:13) Yeah, yeah.   Monica Gomez (27:14) Because, I mean, she's delivering something that's important. She's sharing and she feels comfortable enough to say, hey, that was really hard. That's really what she's saying. That was really hard, right? And so, you know, again, one of my favorite sayings is, you know, get curious, not furious, right? Don't look at it with the negative lens. It's a great way for you to validate, like, how important it is to be seen, and valued, right?   The Dental A Team (27:43) I agree.   Monica Gomez (27:43) And she was opening up because she wanted to be seen, heard, and valued. Like she wanted to be seen. Gosh, I like did those two crowns back to back. My back is hurting me. Are you even valuing that I sat there in fact, right? Even though they could have swapped off with another assistant, but she, you know, she followed him. And so, you know, and my advice was like, you should number one acknowledge that she's sharing, right?   The Dental A Team (27:55) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Monica Gomez (28:12) Thank you so much for sharing that. You're right, that was kind of hard. Let's talk about it as a team tomorrow. Let's find ways to alleviate that when this does happen, right? I mean, the patients wanted to start, like they're ready. Let's do it, right? But where were your other team members? Like, let's talk about this. And so seen, and valued. If you can make anyone new, ⁓ a new employee, an existing employee,   your legacy employees, if you can make them feel and create a space where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued, that's huge. That's like you, you will, your team will love you, your patients will love you because again, it's that invisible kind of energy that's flowing through your practice, right? That creates that great space for employees to wanna stay.   The Dental A Team (29:03) I agree. I totally agree. Thank you, Monica. I think this was ⁓ a really, this is just full of so many gems and ⁓ I love the actual pieces of job description, kind of the, I love your three days, spend three days on it and really just making sure you go through that job description. Look at the to-dos of that position.   Enlist the team to help you. Whoever's gonna be helping to train. I had people specific on my team that were like, these are the things you just, you're stellar at and it's gonna be easy for you to train these things. They trained those. So it doesn't have to be one person. It can be whatever you want it to look like. Just make sure it's built out. You have a plan. Preschedule check-ins. I always make sure we preschedule check-ins and you guys check in with yourself too. think Monica, you gave some really wonderful tips on really making sure that we're showing up the way that we should be.   or the way we want people to show up and really just gut checking and making sure that those things are there. And I loved this. Thank you, Monica. Thank you for your words of wisdom. Thank you for flowing off of it. This was perfect. This was divine. Thank you for helping set up this flow of podcasting today and for just bringing your insight and your wisdom and your years of experience of things that you've seen work and ideas. So thank you, Monica.   Monica Gomez (30:17) Thanks, thanks, Tiff. This is definitely a gem for me. I have so much to share and so much, I love sharing, I love brainstorming, I love sharing what works ⁓ and all the knowledge that we, all of us have, right? This is a beautiful space for us to, you know, share that. And this was so fun. Thanks for inviting me and everyone.   The Dental A Team (30:24) Yeah.   Monica Gomez (30:44) Go out and be fabulous and don't forget to have fun. Have fun.   The Dental A Team (30:48) Yes, I love that.   Thank you. Yes. Go be fabulous. That is like Trish's famous words. I love that she says that. always, I know it always makes it just like, yep, I will. Okay. No, questions. So I love it. Go be fabulous. I agree. Drop us a five star review. Let us know what you thought about this. Let us know what onboarding tips you guys have. is an easy place to find us and.   Monica Gomez (30:55) So these are the things.   The Dental A Team (31:12) get recommendations or share your tips and tricks. We really do love that. And also we're on Instagram and Facebook, all of those places. So watch us there. Watch out for us there. Thursdays, once a third Thursday, we have webinars. You guys, we're everywhere. So if you're only following the podcast, check us out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, TheDentalATeam.com. We've got all of it listed there as well. Go find us, follow us and listen for more amazing tips from Monica and the rest of the consulting team. Thank you guys and go be fabulous.   Monica Gomez (31:40) you  

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we've included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Shireen Rizvi, PhD and Jesse Finkelstein, PsyD, about their book Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships. We discuss what Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) is, how it can help both ourselves and our kids with big feelings, and get into some of the skills it teaches including distress tolerance, check the facts, and mindfulness.**If you'd like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 6:00 What is DBT?* 11:00 The importance of validation* 13:00 How do parents manage their own big feelings?* 16:00 How do you support a kid with big feelings, and where is the place for problem solving?* 23:00 Managing the urge to fix things for our kids!* 26:00 What is distress tolerance?* 28:50 “Check the facts” is a foundational skill* 34:00 Mindfulness is a foundation of DBT* 36:45 How the skills taught through DBT are universalResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships by Shireen Rizvi and Jesse Finkelstein * Shireen Rizvi's website * Jesse Finkelstein's websites axiscbt and therahive Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram* Facebook Group* YouTube* Website* Join us on Substack* Newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything' session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can't go where you don't want them to go and they aren't watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREPodcast transcript:Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today we have two guests who co-authored a book called Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships.And you may be wondering why we're talking about that on a parenting podcast. This was a really great conversation with Shireen Rizvi and Jesse Finkelstein, the co-authors of the book, about all of the skills of DBT, which is a modality of therapy. We talked about the skills they teach in DBT and how we can apply them to parenting.They talk about how emotional dysregulation is the cause of so much of the pain and suffering in our lives. And I think as a parent, you will recognize that either your own emotional dysregulation or your child's is often where a lot of issues and conflict come from.So what they've really provided in this book—and given us a window into in this conversation—is how we can apply some of those skills toward helping ourselves and helping our children with big feelings, a.k.a. emotional dysregulation. It was a really wonderful conversation, and their book is wonderful too. We'll put a link to it in the show notes and encourage you to check it out.There are things you can listen to in this podcast today and then walk away and use right away. One note: you'll notice that a lot of what they talk about really overlaps with the things we teach and practice inside of Peaceful Parenting.If this episode is helpful for you, please share it with a friend. Screenshot it and send it to someone who could use some more skill-building around big emotions—whether they're our own big emotions or our child's. Sharing with a friend or word of mouth is a wonderful way for us to reach more people and more families and help them learn about peaceful parenting.It is a slow process, but I really believe it is the way we change the world. Let's meet Shireen and Jesse.Hi, Jesse. Hi, Shireen. Welcome to the podcast.Jesse: Thank you so much for having us.Sarah: Yeah. I'm so excited about your book, which I understand is out now—Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships. First of all, I love the format of your book. It's super easy to read and easy to use. I already thought about tearing out the pages with the flow charts, which are such great references—really helpful for anyone who has emotions. Basically anyone who has feelings.Jesse: Oh, yes.Sarah: Yeah. I thought they were great, and I think this is going to be a helpful conversation for parents. You've written from a DBT framework. Can you explain what DBT is and maybe how it's different from CBT? A lot of people have heard more about cognitive behavior therapy than dialectical behavior therapy.Shireen: Sure. I would first say that DBT—Dialectical Behavior Therapy—is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy. So they're in the same category. Sometimes we hear therapists say, “I do DBT, but I don't do CBT,” and from my perspective, that's not really possible, because the essence of dialectical behavior therapy is CBT. CBT focuses on how our thoughts, behaviors, and emotions all go together, and how changing any one of those affects the others.That's really the core of DBT—the foundation of CBT. But what happened was the person who developed DBT, Marsha Linehan—she was actually my grad school advisor at the University of Washington—developed this treatment because she was finding that standard CBT was not working as well as she wanted it to for a particular population. The group she was working with were women, primarily, who had significant problems with emotion regulation and were chronically suicidal or self-injuring.With that group, she found they needed a lot more validation—validation that things were really rough, that it was hard to change what was going on, that they needed support and comfort. But if she leaned too much on validation, patients got frustrated that there wasn't enough change happening.So what she added to standard CBT was first a focus on validation and acceptance, and then what she refers to as the dialectical piece: balancing between change and acceptance. The idea is: You're doing the best you can—and you need to do better.Jesse: Mm-hmm.Shireen: And even though DBT was developed for that very severe group that needed a lot of treatment, one of the aspects of DBT is skills training—teaching people skills to manage their emotions, regulate distress, engage interpersonally in a more effective way.Those skills became so popular that people started using them with everyone they were treating, not just people who engaged in chronic suicidal behavior.Sarah: Very cool. And I think the population you're referring to is people who might be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. I bring that up only because I work with parents, not kids, and parents report to me what their children are like. I've had many parents worry, “Do you think my child has borderline personality disorder?” because they've heard of it and associate it with extreme sensitivity and big feelings.A lot of that is just typical of someone who's 13 or 14, right? Or of a sensitive child—not diagnosable or something you'd necessarily find in the DSM. I've heard it so many times. I say, “No, I don't think your child has borderline personality disorder. I think they're just really sensitive and haven't learned how to manage their big feelings yet. And that's something you can help them with.”With that similar level of emotional intensity—in a preteen or early teen who's still developing the brain structures that make self-regulation possible—how can we use DBT skills? What are a couple of ideas you might recommend when you have a 13-year-old who feels like life is ruined because the jeans they wanted to wear are soaking wet in the wash? And I'm not making fun—at 13, belonging is tied to how you look, what jeans you're wearing, how your hair is. It feels very real.So how might we use the skills you write about for that kind of situation?Jesse: Well, Sarah, I actually think you just practiced one of the skills: validation. When someone feels like their day is ruined because of their jeans, often a parent will say, “Get over it. It's not a big deal.” And now, in addition to fear or anxiety, there's a layer of shame or resentment. So the emotion amplifies and becomes even harder to get out of.Validation is a skill we talk about where you recognize the kernel of truth—how this experience makes sense. “The jeans you're wearing are clearly important to you. This is about connection. I understand why you feel this way.” That simple act of communicating that someone's thoughts and feelings make sense can be very powerful.Alongside that—back to what Shireen was saying—there are two tracks. One is the skills you help your teen practice. The other is the skills you practice yourself to be effective. In that moment, your teen might be dysregulated. What is the parent's emotion? Their urge? What skills can they practice to be effective?Sarah: I love that you already went to the next question I was going to ask, which is: when that kid is screaming, “You don't understand, I can't go to school because of the jeans,” what can parents do for themselves using the skills you describe?Shireen: I often think of the oxygen-mask analogy: put on your own oxygen mask before helping others. That was certainly true for me when I had fussy infants—how do you manage that stress when you are already heightened?What do you need to do to regulate yourself so you can be effective in the moment? Sometimes that's literally taking a time-out—leaving the room for a minute. The kid comes after you about the jeans, and you say, “Hold on, I need a minute.” You sequester yourself in the bathroom. You do paced breathing—a DBT skill that helps regulate your nervous system. You do that for a minute, get centered, and then return to the situation.If you're not regulated and your child is dysregulated, you'll ping-pong off each other and it becomes messier and messier. But if you can regulate yourself and approach calmly, the whole interaction changes.Sarah: It's so interesting because people who've been listening to my podcast or know my work will think, “Oh yeah, these are the things Sarah talks about all the time.” Our first principle of peaceful parenting is parental self-regulation. It doesn't mean you never get upset, but you recognize it and have strategies to get back to calm.And I always say, if you forget everything else I teach about dealing with upset kids, just remember empathy—which is another way of saying validation. I tell parents: you don't have to agree to empathize. Especially with situations like the jeans.I love the crossover between the skills parents are practicing in my community and what you've written about. And again: those flow charts! I'm going to mark up my book with Post-its for all the exercises.One of the things you talk about in the book is problem solving. As parents, we can find ourselves in these intense situations. I'll give an example: a client's daughter, at 11 p.m., was spiraling about needing a particular pair of boots for her Halloween costume, and they wouldn't arrive in time. No matter what the mom said, the daughter spiraled.This is a two-part question: If you've validated and they're still really upset, how do you support a kid who is deep in those intense feelings? And when is the place for teaching problem solving—especially when there is a real logistical problem to solve?Jesse: I'm going to say the annoying therapist thing: it depends. If we think about how emotions impact our thinking on a scale from 0 to 10, it's very hard to engage in wise-minded problem solving when someone is at an 8, 9, or 10. At that point, the urge is to act on crisis behaviors—yell, fight, ruminate.So engaging your child in problem solving when they're at a 9 isn't effective.Often, I suggest parents model and coach distress-tolerance skills. Shireen mentioned paced breathing. Maybe distraction. Anything to lower the emotional volume.Once we're in the six-ish range? Now we can problem solve. DBT has a very prescribed step-by-step process.But it's really hard if someone is so dysregulated. That's often where parents and kids end up in conflict: parent wants to solve; kid is at a 9 and can't even see straight.Sarah: Right. So walk us through what that might look like using the boots example. Play the parent for a moment.Jesse: Of course. I'd potentially do a couple of things. I might say, “Okay, let's do a little ‘tipping the temperature' together.” I'd bring out two bowls of ice and say, “We'll bend over, hold our breath for 30 seconds…”Shireen: And put your face in the bowl of ice water. You left out that part.Jesse: Crucial part of the step.Sarah: You just look at the ice water?Jesse: No, you submerge your face. And something happens—it's magical. There's actually a profound physiological effect: lowering blood pressure, calming the sympathetic nervous system.I highlight for parents: do this with your child, not didactically. Make it collaborative.And then: validate, validate, validate. Validation is not approval. It's not saying the reaction is right. It's simply communicating that their distress makes sense. Validation is incredibly regulating.Then you check in: “Do you feel like we can access Wise Mind?” If yes: “Great. Let's bring out a problem-solving worksheet—maybe from Real Skills for Real Life or the DBT manual. Let's walk through it step by step.”Sarah: And if you have a kid screaming, “Get that ice water away from me, that has nothing to do with the boots!”—is there anything to add beyond taking a break?Shireen: I'd say this probably comes up a lot for you, Sarah. As parents—especially high-functioning, maybe perfectionistic types (I put myself in that category)—if my kid is upset, I feel so many urges to fix it right away. Sometimes that's helpful, but often it's not. They either don't want to be fixed, or they're too dysregulated, or fixing isn't actually their goal—they just want to tell you how upset they are.I have to practice acceptance: “My kid is upset right now. That's it.” I remind myself: kids being upset is part of life. It's important for them to learn they can be upset and the world doesn't fall apart.If they're willing to do skills alongside you, great. But there will be times where you say, “I accept that you're upset. I'm sorry you feel this way. It sounds terrible. Let's reconnect in an hour.” And wait for the storm to pass.Sarah: Wait for the storm to pass.Jesse: I'll say—I haven't been a therapist that long, and I've been having this conversation with my own parents. Yesterday I called my mom about something stressful, and she said, “Jesse, do you want validation or problem solving right now?”Shireen: Love it.Jesse: I thought, “You taught her well.” I was like: okay, therapy works. And even having that prompt—“What would you like right now? Problem solving? Validation? Do you want me to just sit with you?”—that's so useful.Sarah: Yeah. I have to remind myself of that with my daughter, especially when the solution seems obvious to me but she's too upset to take it in. Just sitting there is the hardest thing in the world.And you've both anticipated my next question. A big part of your book is distress tolerance—one of the four areas. Can you talk about what distress tolerance is specifically? And as you mentioned, Shireen, it is excruciating when your kid is in pain or upset.I learned from my friend Ned Johnson—his wonderful book The Self-Driven Child—that there's something called the “righting instinct.” When your child falls over, you have the instinct to right them—pick them up, dust them off, stand them up. That instinct kicks in whenever they're distressed. And I think it's important for them to learn skills so we don't do that every time.Give us some thoughts about that.Shireen: Well, again, I think distress tolerance is so important for parents and for kids. The way we define it in DBT is: distress tolerance is learning how to tolerate stressful, difficult, complicated situations without doing anything to make it worse. That's the critical part, because distress tolerance is not about solving problems. It's about getting through without making things worse.So in the context of an interaction with your kid, “not making it worse” might mean biting your tongue and not lashing out, not arguing, not rolling your eyes, or whatever it is. And then tolerating the stress of the moment.As parents, we absolutely need this probably a thousand times a day. “How do I tolerate the distress of this moment with my kid?” And then kids, as humans, need to learn distress tolerance too—how to tolerate a difficult situation without doing anything to make it worse.If we swoop in too quickly to solve the problem for them—as you said, if we move in too quickly to right them—they don't learn that they can get through it themselves. They don't learn that they can right themselves.And I think there's been a lot written about generations and how parenting has affected different generations. We want our kids to learn how to problem solve, but also how to manage stress and difficulty in effective ways.Sarah: I think you're probably referring to the “helicopter parents,” how people are always talking about helicopter parents who are trying to remove any obstacles or remove the distress, basically.I think the answer isn't that we just say, “Okay, well, you're distressed, deal with it,” but that we're there with them emotionally while they're learning. We're next to them, right? With that co-regulation piece, while they're learning that they can handle those big feelings.Shireen: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.Sarah: I thought it might be fun, before we close out, to do a deep dive on maybe one or two of the skills you have in the book. I was thinking about maybe “Check the Facts.” It would be a cool one to do a deep dive on. You have so many awesome skills and I encourage anyone to pick up your book. “Check the Facts” is one of the emotion regulation skills.Do you mind going over when you would use Check the Facts, what it is, and how to use it?Jesse: Not at all. Check the Facts is, in many ways, a foundational skill, because it's so easy for us to get lost in our interpretation of a situation. So the classic example is: you're walking down the street and you wave to a friend, and they don't wave back. And I don't know about you, but it's easy for me to go to, “Oh, they must be mad at me.”Sarah: Right, yeah.Jesse: And all of a sudden, I'm spinning out, thinking about all the things I could have done to hurt their feelings, and yada yada yada. Then I'm feeling lots of upset, and I may have the urge to apologize, etc.What we're doing with Check the Facts is returning our attention back to the facts themselves—the things we can take in with our senses. We're observing and describing, which are two foundational mindfulness skills in DBT. And then from that, we ask ourselves: “Does the emotion I'm feeling—the intensity and duration of that emotion—fit the facts as I'm experiencing them?”So in many ways, this is one of those cognitive interventions. DBT rests on all these cognitive-behavioral principles; it's part of that broader umbrella. Here we're asking: “Do the facts as I see them align with my emotional experience?”From there, we ask: if yes, then there are certain options or skills we can practice—for instance, we can change the problem. If no, that begs the question: “Should I act opposite to this emotion urge that I have?”So it's a very grounding, centering type of skill. Shireen, is there anything I'm missing?Shireen: No. I would just give a parenting example that happens for me a lot. My kid has a test the next day. He says he knows everything. He doesn't open the book or want to review the study guide. And I start to think things like, “Oh my gosh, he has no grit. He's going to fail this test. He's not going to do well in high school. He's not going to get into a good college. But most importantly, he doesn't care. And what does that say about him? And what does it say about me as a parent?”I hope people listening can relate to these sorts of thoughts and I'm not alone.Sarah: A hundred percent. I've heard people say those exact things.Shireen: And even though I practice these skills all the time, I'm also human and a mother. So where Check the Facts can be useful there is first just recognizing: “Okay, what thoughts am I having in response to this behavior?” The facts of the situation are: my kid said he doesn't need to study anymore. And then look at all these thoughts that came into my mind.First, just recognizing: here was the event, and here's what my mind did. That, in and of itself, is a useful experience. You can say, “Wow, look at what I'm doing in my mind that's creating so much of a problem.”Then I can also think: “What does this make me feel when I have all these thoughts?” I feel fear. I feel sad. I feel shame about not being a good parent. And those all cause me to have more thoughts and urges to do things that aren't super effective—like trying to bully him into studying, all of these things.Then the skill can be: “Okay, are these thoughts exaggerated? Are they based in fact? Are they useful?” I can analyze each of these thoughts.I might think, “Well, he has a history of not studying and doing fine,” is one thing. Another thought: “Me trying to push him to study is not going to be effective or helpful.” Another: “There are natural consequences. If he doesn't do well because he didn't study, that's an important lesson for him to learn.”So I can start to change my interpretations based on the facts of the actual situation as opposed to my exaggerated interpretations. And then see: what does that do to my emotions? And when I have more realistic, fact-based thoughts, does that lead me to have a better response than I would if I followed through on all my exaggerated thinking?Does that make sense?Sarah: Yeah, totally makes sense. Are there any DBT skills that are helpful in helping you recognize when you need to use a skill—if that makes sense? Because sometimes I think parents might spiral, like in the example you're talking about, but they might not even realize they're spiraling. Sometimes parents will say, “I don't even know until it's too late that I've had this big moment of emotional dysregulation.”Jesse: I think there's a very strong reason why mindfulness is the foundation of DBT—for exactly the reason you've just described. For a lot of us, we end up engaging in behaviors that are ineffective, that are not in line with our values or goals, and it feels like it's just happening to us.So having a mindfulness practice—and I want to highlight that doesn't necessarily mean a formal meditation practice—but developing the skill of noticing, of being increasingly conscious of what you're feeling, your urges, your thoughts, your behaviors. So that when you notice that you are drifting, that you're engaging in an ineffective behavior, you can then apply a skill. We can't change what we're not aware of.Sarah: I love that. It's so hard with all the distractions we have and all of the things that are pulling us this way and that, and the busyness. So just slowing down and starting to notice more what we're feeling and thinking.Shireen: There's a skill that we teach that's in the category of mindfulness called Wise Mind. I don't have to get into all the particulars of that, but Wise Mind is when you're in a place where you feel wise and centered and perhaps a little bit calmer.So one question people can ask themselves is: “Am I in a place of Wise Mind right now?” And if not, that's the cue. Usually, when we answer that we're not, it's because we're in a state of Emotion Mind, where our emotions are in control of us.First, recognizing what state of mind you're in can be really helpful. You can use that as a cue: “I'm not in Wise Mind. I need to do something more skillful here to get there,” or, “I need to give myself some time before I act.”Sarah: I love that. So helpful. Before we wrap up, was there anything you wish I'd asked you that you think would be really helpful for parents and kids?Shireen: I just want to reiterate something you said earlier, which is: yes, this treatment was developed for folks with borderline personality disorder. That is often a diagnosis people run screaming from or are very nervous about. People might hesitate to think that these skills could be useful for them if they don't identify as having borderline personality disorder.But I think what you're highlighting, Sarah—and we so appreciate you having us on and talking about these skills—is that we consider these skills universal. Really anybody can benefit.I've done training and teaching in DBT for 25 years, and I teach clinicians in many different places how to do DBT treatment with patients. But inevitably, what happens is that the clinicians themselves say, “Oh, I really need these skills in my everyday life.”So that's what we want to highlight, and why we wrote this book: to take these skills from a treatment designed for a really severe population and break it down so anybody can see, “Oh, this would be useful for me in my everyday life, and I want to learn more.”Sarah: Totally. Yeah. I love it. And I think it's a continuum, right? From feeling like emotions are overwhelming and challenging, and being really emotionally sensitive. There are lots of people who are on that more emotionally sensitive side of things, and these are really helpful skills for them.Jesse: Yeah. And to add on that, I wouldn't want anyone—and I don't think any of us here are suggesting this—it's such a stigmatized diagnosis. I have yet to meet someone who's choosing suffering. Many of us are trying to find relief from a lot of pain, and we may do so through really ineffective means.So with BPD, in my mind, sometimes it's an unfortunate name for a diagnosis. Many folks may have the opinion that it means they're intrinsically broken, or there's something wrong with their personality. Really, it's a constellation of behaviors that there are treatments for.So I want anyone listening not to feel helpless or hopeless in having this diagnosis or experience.Shireen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Sarah: Thank you so much. The question I ask all my guests—I'll ask Shireen first and then Jesse—is: if you could go back in time, if you had a time machine, if you could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?Shireen: Oof. I think about this a lot, actually, because I feel like I did suffer a lot when my kids were babies. They were super colicky. I didn't sleep at all. I was also trying to work. I was very stressed. I wish that at that time I could have taken in what other people were telling me, which is: “This will pass.” Right? “This too shall pass,” which is something we say to ourselves as DBT therapists a lot. Time changes. Change is inevitable. Everything changes.In those dark parenting moments, you get stuck in thoughts of, “This is never going to change. It's always going to be this way. I can't tolerate this.” Instead, shifting to recognize: “Change is going to happen whether I like it or not. Just hang in there.”Sarah: I love that. My mother-in-law told me when I had my first child: “When things are bad, don't worry, they'll get better. And also, when things are good, don't worry, they'll get worse.”Shireen: Yes, it's true. And we need both the ups and the downs so we can actually understand, “Oh, this is why I like this, and this is why I don't like this.” It's part of life.Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. And Jesse, if you do ever have children, what would you want to remember to tell yourself?Jesse: I think I would want to remember to tell myself—and I don't think I'm going to say anything really new here—that perfection is a myth. I think parents often feel like they need to be some kind of superhuman. But we all feel. And when we do feel, and when we feel strongly, the goal isn't to shame ourselves for having that experience. It's to simply understand it.That's what I would want to communicate to myself, and what I hope to communicate to the parents I work with.Sarah: Love that. Best place to go to find out more about you all and what you do? We'll put a link to your book in the show notes, but any other socials or websites you want to point people to?Shireen: My website is shireenrizvi.com, where you can find a number of resources, including a link to the book and a link to our YouTube channel, which has skills videos—animated skills videos that teach some of these skills in five minutes or less. So that's another resource for people.Sarah: Great. What about you, Jesse?Jesse: I have a website called axiscbt.com. I'm also a co-founder of a psychoeducation skills course called Farrah Hive, and we actually have a parenting course based on DBT skills—that's thefarrahhive.com. And on Instagram, @talk_is_good.Sarah: Great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.Jesse: Thank you, Sarah.Sarah: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Diana revisits a former interview with the late Dave Ebert, who went to be with Jesus in July 2024. His wife, Bobbie Ebert, joins the conversation to discuss their unique ministry. The couple uses improv comedy as a tool to help survivors of sex trafficking rediscover their voice, improve communication, and build confidence. Bobby shares her personal story of overcoming abuse and finding faith, while Dave discusses their journey into full-time ministry and their goal of creating a residential facility to support survivors. The episode also touches on the importance of laughter and joy in the healing process and provides details on how listeners can support their mission. 00:00 Introduction: Comedy and Sex Trafficking? 00:23 Sponsor Message: 7 5 3 Academy 01:11 Welcome to The Wounds of the Faithful Podcast 01:42 Introducing Dave and Bobby Ebert 02:12 The Power of Improv Comedy in Healing 04:48 Dave's Ministry Journey 07:50 Bobby's Testimony and Healing Journey 15:38 How Dave and Bobby Met 24:16 A Surprise Proposal 25:29 The Significance of the Ring 26:07 Life After Marriage 27:11 Transition to Full-Time Ministry 28:11 Using Comedy to Heal Trauma 29:24 The Missionary Journey 32:16 Fundraising and Support 32:48 Future Plans and Goals 35:06 The Power of Laughter 41:17 Final Thoughts and Call to Action The website is still up after his passing. Bobbie may be keeping the ministry going in his place. www.gifts4glory.com   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Dave and Bobbie Ebert [00:00:00] What does comedy and sex trafficking have to do with each other? It's not what you think. We have my guest, Dave Ebert on the show again from the first season of the show to talk to us about his ministry once again. So find out the answer to my question next on The Wounds of the Faithful podcast. Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They [00:01:00] take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello friends. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so glad to be here with you. We have a great show for you. More Dave Ebert. If you didn't hear Dave's first interview, please go back and listen to it. It was excellent. He told his personal [00:02:00] story and then how he started his ministry. He's gonna bring his wife tonight because they're doing this together. So you wanted to get the answer to the question that I posed in the beginning. The power of improv comedy in healing and growth. Reverends Dave and Bobby Ebert are on a unique mission to minister to survivors of sex trafficking using the power of improv comedy. With their help survivors find their voice, tap into their creativity, improve communication, and rediscover confidence as US missionaries. They use their unique calling to help those in need and bring light to the darkest of situations. So there areas of focus on their webpage here. Use comedy to break down walls and find the good soil for the seeds of God's word to be [00:03:00] planted. Rebuild confidence through fun, creative games and challenges. So these survivors are better prepared to reenter society. Provide a needed respite from the challenges of healing and recovery by creating a safe, fun, and laughter rich environment. Demonstrate the love of the father and share the redeeming power of Christ to encourage forgiveness of those who inflicted the unimaginable trauma. So I think you're gonna really enjoy Dave and Bobby. I mean, what, what could go wrong with comedians, right? I know that you're going to be blessed with their stories and their vision to help sex Traffick victims to heal. So without delay. Here's my conversation with Dave and Bobby Ebert. Please welcome back to the [00:04:00] show, Dave Ebert, and we also have his wife Bobby, on the show with us tonight. Welcome both of you guys. Thank you, Diana, for having us back or having me back. And then first time guest, long time listener. Bobby, thanks for having us. This is gonna be great having, uh, comedians on the show again, and you're on episode 12 of season one. So I definitely wanna see what you've been up to since then and you have some updates for us today. Yeah, absolutely. Did you want us to start? There's, there's a lot to cover. Yeah. Just remind the folks what you do, and then I'll have Bobby tell the folks a little bit about herself and what role she plays in the ministry you have there. Awesome. So for the last, decade, I've, run an improv ministry based here in Chicago where we sp spring the, light of Christ into various rooms using comedy to bring people together. [00:05:00] Most of our shows have been either ministry to the homeless or it's been fundraisers where we've raised funds for everything from animal care shelters to people who lost part of their home in a fire. To camps for foster kids, and it's all about bringing people together and uniting them in laughter. 'cause I truly believe that laughter is a gift from God because he knew that things would get stressful and science bears out that laughter is such a stress reliever, such a healthy benefit for the body that there's no way that happened by accident. God designed laughter as a gift to help us, kind of deal with, the things that are stressful and help us forget the things that really aren't our burdens to carry. And part of that ministry included for the last four and a half years have been working at Salt and Light Coalition in Chicago, working with survivors of sex trafficking, using improv as a way to kind of break down the walls that they've had to put up to just to survive because mm-hmm. Frankly, they've [00:06:00] been through hell on earth. And to survive you've gotta develop some calluses and around their heart, around in inside, there's just so many calluses and walls that are up and the gift of laughter kind of unlocks that and allows them to really advance in their healing. Mm-hmm. I'm such a big supporter of what you do, Dave, and, um, when you talk about. Oh, God created humor. I, I really wished in scripture there was more of like Jesus laughing or Jesus telling jokes, don't you? Yeah, I would think that the human experience would tell you that you get 13 men just camping out, walking the water in wilderness. They're gonna crack some jokes. They're gonna make some funny things like James and John teased Peter, oh, help me Lord, I'm drowning. Help me. And he would fire back, Hey, at least I got out of the boat. And the whole, the verse where, Jesus is talking about is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle. To me, that's. [00:07:00] That could be taken as a sarcastic moment, like just Jesus in front of everybody, just like making this comment, which is so ludicrous. It could easily be interpreted as being of a funny comment. Like, I mean, camel obviously can't pass through a needle. So I think that there are moments you can find in scripture that, that are funny. It wasn't his focus. Mm-hmm. But. Proverbs 17:22 says, Lightheart is like good medicine. Some translations say laughter is like good medicine. So I think mm-hmm. If it's covered at least once, then we can stick to it. 'cause the Bible is true from front to back. But yeah, it would be kind of fun to hear like open night in Jerusalem, open mike night. Yeah. That's awesome. So Bobby, why don't you tell the folks about your background and how you met the Lord maybe, and how you met Dave. Yeah, so [00:08:00] I am Bobby Ebert, Dave's wife. We've been married for eight years and. My testimony starts in my childhood is through a series of abuse growing up all the way from junior high all the way through high school. Um, it became pretty serious. The police ended up being, getting involved and just a wide variety of things that happened with. All of that and being severe trauma, the Lord revealed to me in a vision, my sinful nature. And so how that happened was I was in a counseling session at a crisis center, and it was in the middle of that crisis center session that. The Lord gave me this vision of a Santa Claus list where it has one size, all naughty and then a nice, but instead of it being naughty and nice and who's on that list, and it was all of my sins and I could read [00:09:00] them and I just remember like staring off in this what would look to other people as if a day I was in a daydream and I was just feeling mortified. About myself and the counselor had no idea what was going on. I was just looking off and the car ride home, I was just very silent. I was staying with my best friend and her family, and so they were my transportation, obviously, and I would just start repenting and just like asking Jesus to forgive me for salvation and. So one thing that I had a hard time wrapping my mind around was how does the blood of Jesus actually cleanse us? That is a dirty substance. How does that actually cleanse us? And I could not wrap my mind around that until that moment of [00:10:00] salvation and that veil was, it came right off and I just had like this instant understanding. So that was pretty amazing. And fast forward through. A few more years of going through like hope and healing and some other counseling sessions like the Lord did a really huge work in my heart and in my spirit, and even in my mind, like just completely renewed me and healed me. There is one Wednesday night I went to a church service where I was attending at that time. Happened to be at the back of the subdivision where I grew up and my dad still lived. In our childhood home at that time and on the way to church that Wednesday night, the Lord convicted me and told me three times, forgive your father. Mm-hmm. And I said, no, I am not. And after that third time I said, fine Lord. I will forgive him [00:11:00] if I drive by his house. I see the lights are on and he is up and awake. So after service, I drove by and I pulled in front of the house, and of course all the lights are on, doors are open, windows are open. He is watching tv. So I'm like, Ugh. So I arrived unannounced. And he let me in and we chatted and I had no idea why I was there. And finally I get up to excuse myself so I can travel home. It was a 45 minute ride to where I was living 'cause I had since moved in with another family member. And as I'm walking out the door. I literally have my body half in and half out of the door. And I turned and I said, I forgive you. And I was walking out that door and he says, hold on a minute. You get back in here there bubble. [00:12:00] And he says, what is this a 12 step program you're going through? So I came back and I sat back down and I just told him I could give you everything that has ever happened in my childhood, everything that you've ever done, and all the, I went on and he is like it created this special moment where he opened up and started talking about his childhood and the trauma and different things that he experienced, and he was still very unrepentant. Still is to this day, still denies everything that has. Ever taken place mostly 'cause he is protecting himself and from being vulnerable and having to actually repent. But it created this beautiful moment that had I disobeyed God, my dad to this day would [00:13:00] not be open. To hearing about Jesus. He doesn't always wanna hear it from me, but he'll ask me questions. He'll ask me questions, and he'll ask Dave questions and Dave has his. Unique way of being able to create this bond with my dad, where my dad's more open to speak with him versus me. And that's okay. Yeah. Uh, because he's still gonna get the gospel. Totally. So I'm glad that he's open and he's been. Open for 15 years now, and now he is just starting to do a Bible study with a friend. So God will use anybody and it doesn't have to be me. I planted, I watered seeds, but God gives an increase and he'll use anybody and I just pray, Lord. I don't care who it is, I just pray for his salvation. Mm-hmm. And he's, really into the chosen. And the chosen brings the word to life in a way that ma most people [00:14:00] haven't even thought of before. And so the chosen has been really powerful and getting him closer and closer to taking that final step and like, yes, Lord, I'm yours. So it's been really exciting to see over the last eight years to see, her dad really grow in that way. And, get closer and closer. He's in a crockpot right now. Yes. And a few more hours he'll be ready. Wow. I've talked about the chosen on the show before and some of the guests, and I don't necessarily like some of the liberties they take with some of it, who am I? If the show is getting people to get in the Bible? Mm-hmm. To come to church or to start asking questions. Or renew their relationship with Jesus. So I just let God do what God does, right? Yes. And I think that's a healthy place to be, is that you don't have to think that they're getting everything perfect or doing it right. I, and you know, there are times that we've looked at each [00:15:00] other like, maybe they could have done it differently, but like you said, it is getting people excited about the word and prayerfully people are not forming their entire doctrine and faith based on a TV show, but at least getting their appetite wet for more of the living word. Yes. Awesome. I really just love your story, Bobby, and that you are obedient to what God had called you to do, even though it maybe you were a little afraid to approach your father, but it looks like God's blessing you in that way, and even the healing from the trauma that you've gone through, that's a journey too. Now, how did you meet Dave? I was previously engaged and after that engagement broke off, I was like, Lord, like it's just you and me. And some of that was just a couple years of healing and being able to move on from that previous engagement. [00:16:00] 'cause it was a long-term relationship. We were together for over five years, so. I've been told by a counselor in the past that when you have something happen, you count how many years you've experienced that, divide it in half, and that's about how long it takes to like be able to move on from that, to heal from that. And it was probably about that halfway mark that I really felt like I was ready to move on and I. The Lord was blessing me to move on and to be open to dating again. And there's a few people who presented themselves, and Christians and non-Christians and the non-Christians. I was like, well, you're gonna be wasting your time and you're gonna be wasting my time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But. Even the Christians who presented themselves, they weren't, they still weren't the right ones that God wanted for me.[00:17:00] And I am grateful because the Lord really showed me to be more discerning. So fast forward, I one day was like, I've always been against. Online dating, meeting people through dating websites and stuff. But I was like done. I was tired of being single and crying my eyes out in my pillow every night and I said, Lord, I don't care I doing this. So I signed up for Christian Mingle that night, and the next day I met a friend of Dave's and we got together and. We kinda. Tested things out for a couple of months and it wasn't a right fit to. But during that time I met Dave. He was actually dating somebody else that he had met, ChristianMingle. And actually I met her on Plenty of Fish. [00:18:00] Oh, sorry. Free site. Well, you were on Christian Mingle though, so the free version. I paid. Alright anyway, so we would all hang out as a group of friends and his relationship ended. My relationship ended with his friend and. Fast forward about three, four months. It's December, and the guy I was dating, he was having a Mark Schultz concert at his church and he needed help and I was like, you need some help. So I'm like, I volunteered to help as concert because he really. Volunteers. And so it was when we were there that Dave in showed interest in me and inquired like, so what is going on between the two of you? And he gave his blessing for Dave to make his move. And whoa, Dave and I [00:19:00] was, he friended me on Facebook along with some other people I met at the church that night. So I was like, okay, whatever. It's just people that I've met. Friending me on Facebook. But then we would start chatting on Messenger for hours on end, and he would try flirting with me. And I was like, Dave, stop. You're like, you're flirting with me. Stop. And I would use his cheesy line, be like, Hey, I can't help it. I'm a Libra, I'm a hopeless romantic. What would you say, Dave? Give us one of your best lines here. I would just say she had a nice smile, just simple, flirty stuff, trying to make her laugh through Facebook Messenger. Yeah. I don't really even remember any of my deadlines. I honestly don't remember either. But fast forward, come March, he asks me to go to a concert. Oh, he is asking me out on a date, and I wasn't for that. And so I assume like a bunch of your guy friends are going and he is like, well, actually mm-hmm. [00:20:00] It's just one friend of mine, my sister, and I'm asking you, and I was like, crap. So I agreed to go and it was so awkward. How do I connect with these people? His sister ended up not going, so it was just me and his friend that he had started to improv the group with. And finally after the concert, his friend started talking about. Moody Radio, moody Church here in Chicago. Okay, here's a point of connection. Here's something to strike up a conversation. And so we started to converse about that and Dave was freaking out thinking, oh no, they're connecting, but we really weren't connecting like that. So he walks me to the train after I protested. 'cause the train was literally right across the street. I could walk myself and. It is Chicago is late at night. At night, [00:21:00] and you're not letting her walk by herself to the train. Mm-hmm. No. I've been to Chicago, but I'm not afraid of the city. So I've had plenty of experiences on my own and as a young kid in the city in some rough neighborhoods. So I am pretty confident. But anyway, I let him walk me to the train, and I have this anxiety about making sure I'm on the trains right away. And so I'm not missing my trains. So I get on this train and he's literally like, what? No hug. All right. So for context, I walked her all the way to the platform of the train. We're talking, and as soon as the doors opened, like literally as soon as they came apart, she was gone. No. So the lamest of lame ploys, I'm like. What, no hug. So she came back out, gave me the side bro hug, and then came back to the train. And here I am leaving this date thinking like, [00:22:00] man, I am in the friend zone. And then know what the friend zone is. So the next day we are talking on the phone and we're talking about this. Concert and what happened, and so to give some back info, the movie Courageous, if everyone has seen that at the end, they're doing the Father's Day speech and they're listing off all the I will declarations that they will do as fathers and men of the home and husbands. When that movie came out and I saw it, I was like, okay, Lord, whoever I marry really has to follow all of those declarations. And so we're on the phone discussing this date and at the, towards the end of the conversation, he starts saying all of these declarations. And he had never seen the movie. And so it was like literally God [00:23:00] was slapping me upside the head and I literally was on my couch like. Oh my. This is my husband. Well, okay Lord. So then it went from there. We dated for seven months, got engaged and got married seven months after our engagement. And now here we are eight years later. I propose at the end of church service. Yes, I had coordinated with, our pastor and I asked him to say, set it up as like a testimony stay. 'Cause it was two weeks before Thanksgiving, set it up as like, do you have any Thanksgiving testimonies? So a couple people shared and then when I realized that nobody was gonna go after, go next, I, that's when I started my testimony and then stood up to the platform and proposed and I was like, wow. Yeah, so, but it's funny though, because he stood up in his seat, well, not on his seat, from his seat, [00:24:00] and started to talk to the congregation, introducing himself and stuff. Okay. But then when he moved up to the front of the church, oh my gosh, Dave, this is not one of your comedy shows. You don't have to stand in front of everybody. You had no clue, huh? Yeah. And so one of the men in the church, he kind of thought it was funny too, and he is like, well, what is this? Like some kind of proposal happening. And as soon as he said that, I started backing up. 'cause I'm on the platform as part of the worship team. I interpreted. The worship in ASL. So I literally was backing up to the wall as far as I could go, and he starts his proposal and you hear the gasps and stuff, and I'm like, oh my goodness, because I'm not. Usually comfortable being center of attention and all [00:25:00] eyes were on me and I was no pressure freaking out. Were you happy that he proposed? Yes. And he will tell everybody that when he. I asked, will you marry me? That I never said yes, but I did several times with my head buried into his shoulder and in his ears. But what is true, I did not give her the ring. She snatched it out of the box. I did. But this is what is really cool. And so God ordained is the ring that he proposed with is his mom's ring. But it also happens to be the same exact ring that I used to look at in the old Sears and service merchandise catalogs when I was a kid. When I was a kid. Mm-hmm. So it was a sign that, yes, this really is of God and this, it really is your [00:26:00] husband. I've never heard that before. That is, yeah. That is something else. Yes. Wow. Years later, and I don't remember. You don't have any children, right? Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. Okay. We're working on it. Not right now though. Yeah. That'll drive up the ratings, the tmmi ratings, because it's been a few years. I didn't wanna assume, but sorry. No, we just go with it here. Yeah. And yeah, I can't make this stuff up. Right, right. Now you were doing the comedy, the improv, like part-time, right? And you were pastoring, weren't you, Dave? We were co children's pastors and have been together basically since we got married. And so that was, that's part-time unpaid volunteer here. [00:27:00] 'cause we've been at small churches. Mm-hmm. And building up rewards in heaven. Yes. Yeah. The economy was part-time and we get paid every once in a while, but it was never an income generator. So I've had a few different jobs that paid the bills, but what's different now is in October of 22, I got laid off and the Lord showed us through several circumstances that it was time to get into full-time ministry. And so this September we went through missions training and we are now a US missionary candidate. And we'll be doing what I've been doing in salt and light full time, which is working with survivors of trauma, using comedy and improv to unlock their creativity and their communication skills and remind them that it's okay to laugh, it's okay to, mm-hmm. Let your guard down and find joy in life. Yeah. So we've been working with specifically trafficking survivors, and the need is [00:28:00] they need to know that. There's hope for them and there is a future for them, and that their hope is in Jesus and that their future is in Jesus as well. So through the comedy, what we do is like the improv workshops with them, and through that we're able to break down the walls in their hearts and turn stone hearts into hearts of clay, and we're able to share the love of Jesus with them. And what's really awesome and was the unwritten benefit and the unwritten aspect is that I, I am a man coming in with these women who survived being abused and just put through literal hell on earth by men. So they're getting a chance to see that, number one, there are. Healthy men that you can trust. Mm-hmm. And also because we're married, Bobby's been able to come to a few of the workshops now, and they're [00:29:00] able to see that there is a possibility of a healthy marriage. And we get to model those things while we're also having fun and seeing God really break down a lot of walls. You lost your job in 2020. I lost my job in 2022 also. It's just amazing how God moves us in a different direction and it's definitely changed my life. And you might remember from our first conversation, Dave, that I was a missionary for 13 years Baptist ary as a church planter. Now that process of becoming a church planter, it's probably different than the process that you're going through to become missionaries, or you just went through candidate school and what does that look like? So it started in January with the application very in depth, had to find 10 references, which to me was like they're serious because especially for guys, we don't have that many close people. We're [00:30:00] just like, we have, Jesus had like really three close people. Mm-hmm. Then he had the 12 disciples, but he had three. And it's like, how am I supposed to have three times as many friends as Jesus, but we got the re re it calling people. Right? And this is Dave, um, Dave Ebert? Yeah. Yeah. The comedian. Oh no. Yeah, that, that's me. And so it was kind like trying to find a groomsman for the wedding. Calling up people from third grade, Hey, uh, what are you doing this weekend? What's your dad doing this? I heard from him for 10 years. Right. And usually when you hear somebody out of the blue after 10 years and they talk really friendly, usually they're trying to get you in some MLM. Right, right. Hey, hey, you wanna buy my tell you about what I'm doing? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. doTERRA unto others as you would have doTERRA unto you. But, so there's application [00:31:00] process and there were interviews with the head of missions, then interviews with the people who would be over my specific department. Several testing a lot of forms that fill out Yeah. Psych tests. Psych tests, psych tests, and then, yeah. Yeah. Make sure that. We can at least lie well enough to, no, I'm kidding. No, to make sure that we're ready because Yeah. When you walk out into full-time ministry, especially with missions where you're responsible for your own fundraising and support raising. It takes a toll and you have to be healthy. You have to be in a good position also. You have to be in a place where you're not like escaping the world to say, oh, I'm just gonna be a missionary and get away from stuff. Mm-hmm. So they do a very good job of vetting and making sure that you're healthy and ready. Yes. And then the candidate school, the orientation was six, 10 hour days of. Learning about fundraising, about how to, honor the [00:32:00] gifts that people give, and also the different rules and regulations that we have to follow because we are accountable to our home church, to our home district as well as to the national assemblies. So a lot of training, a lot of prep, a lot of numbers. And now we're hitting the road calling every pastor we know. The churches that we visited for fundraising with the comedy team, we're connecting with them and just asking them for support. Because what we're gonna do is we're serving organizations that don't have a budget to hire an improv coach. So we wanna go and serve them free of charge and just rely on the body of Christ to make sure that our cats don't go homeless. The goal is to also eventually open our own facility. Wow. So like a home, like a residential home? Yeah, like a residential facility for survivors, men, women and children. And to offer [00:33:00] them a comprehensive therapy as well as job training skills and things to get them on their feet so that once they're on the, in this place where they're ready to start over. If they're ready to start over and start building a life, instead of many trafficking victims when they come out of trafficking, unless they have an organization that walks in hand in hand, they either fall back into drugs, they fall back into that lifestyle again. Or worse, they fall into depression and impossible suicide because. They end up escaping, but they have a record. Yeah, because they're, they've probably been picked up by the police several times. They've also probably got a drug record because either the people that they were quote unquote working for or by their own desire to survive, they. End up on drugs, just trying to cope. Mm-hmm. In many cases, and courts really don't care why you're being arrested for being intoxicated or on drugs. [00:34:00] They just know that you are. And so that makes their lives really hard once they escape, because who's gonna help them? They've got a rap sheet, they've probably got no place decent to stay. Mm-hmm. They might have kids that are now in the system, so they have a lot stacked against them when they get out. We want to be another or be an organization that gives them all the tools they need to not only escape and survive, but to actually start to thrive. Mm-hmm. They can leave their past behind and it will be just a beautiful testimony to share of God's goodness that no matter what you're going through, God can redeem it and heal it. And, we wanna do our own facility here in Illinois and we also wanna reproduce what we're doing because. We believe it's valuable and it's unique, and it helps kind of fill in some of the gaps that traditional therapy might leave. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of the times these survivors have felt betrayed or felt like they can't trust people, [00:35:00] and so traditional therapy doesn't always work. It doesn't always help them free themselves from their past. Yeah. So when comedy is entered into the picture. We can kind of till that soil a little bit so that now therapy is a little bit easier because now the, some of the calluses and the walls are torn down. Yeah. So then you open doors for other types of healing methods once you get through that big block wall. Right. It's been amazing 'cause we've seen women open up publicly for the first time and share their stories where. Traditional therapies may not have worked in that way, if that makes sense. They find more freedom when they start to laugh. When you laugh in a room with other people, there's like this bond that happens where you feel safe because now you have all admitted something about yourselves. If you go to a comedy show and you hear a group of 500 strangers laughing, they're not strangers when they leave that comedy show because in the midst of that, [00:36:00] they laughed and admit they have something in common. And when you admit that you have something in common with 500 other people, now you don't feel alone. Now you feel a little bit of safety and we've seen these women, , find that they are, feel safe enough to share their story for the first time in any kind of a public setting. And as once you shed light on your pain and shed light on what you're struggling with, it doesn't seem quite as big and as daunting and shedding light on it allows you to give it to God and let him finish the healing. Like you say, the laughter is so powerful because it makes you feel good, and then the laughter makes you feel better because all those endorphins and the serotonin levels are. Where they're supposed to be. And you look on the world in a different perspective. It's crazy. Like I, 10 minutes ago I was depressed and now I think I'm gonna make it. And here's something I like to talk about is. When you laugh, when you have like a deep [00:37:00] laugh and you're like truly just enjoying the moment, you naturally lift your head up and automatically your eyes are lifting up. Mm-hmm. It's almost like it's a form of worship when you have a good laugh. Wow. Because you're looking up to where your help comes from. Wow. And. It's just a beautiful sign because when you're laughing you just, you're letting this energy go, whether it's stress or it's just, you're even fatigue. When you let it go, suddenly your shoulders lift up. Suddenly your blood pressure drops and you're reminded that there's more than what's here right in front of you. You lift your eyes up and you realize there's so much more, and that's just a beautiful thing to see. Let's also think about it. God is our father, and what good father doesn't take joy in laughing with his kids. And when you see a healthy father and child relationship, they have moments of giggles and cackles and tickle fights. So [00:38:00] what Good father him doesn't take joy in laughing and enjoying the presence of his kids. So I think that when we laugh. In those moments of where it's pure and it's just joy. He laughs with us. And I think that those, like I said, are moments of worship in a way because we're reminded of his goodness. Yes. God give us a gift. I think that. People outside the Christian community, they, they view us as fuddy daddies and stuffed shirts and that we don't ever have any fun. And we're serious all the time and we're about reading our Bibles and praying all the time and that we don't have any fun. But I like your perspective. Of showing the world that it is a gift from God. And we do have fun. And like I said earlier, talking about Jesus and the 12 disciples, you get a group of guys together that they're gonna goof off, they're gonna laugh. And the adoration that the disciples have for Jesus less Judas is [00:39:00] scar, the adoration. That does not happen when it's just a militant leader saying, thou shalt, there has to be moments of levity, moments of bonding, and pure joy. That's more than just. A rabbi teaching his students the love that they had, the love that they felt for him to be willing to die for him for his name. That doesn't happen in a military setting that happens in relationship where there's moments of levity and laughter, and I can't wait to eventually be and be in heaven and hear Jesus tell some jokes. That'd be amazing. Like why did you really call them Sons of Thunder? Right. Probably farting around the campfire. Ah, yes, exactly. Jesus. Pull my finger. Some people have like checked out at this point. Oh [00:40:00] man. Love it. I'm so glad you're gonna create a center as a goal in the future after the show, I definitely wanna give you some folks to connect with that. I know I've got a lot of connections, but we have the Dream Center here in Phoenix. Okay. And I've gone to a few of their fundraisers and they're an incredible place. They have this center for trafficked women and. And men, and we're very close to Mexico, so we get a lot of trafficked people here in Phoenix. And there'd be somebody to connect with for sure. 'cause they could show you how to create the facility and what not to do, and what to do and what they've learned. They create like apartments for these girls. They're like designer rooms. They're not just like bunks and dorms and stuff. I've seen these rooms. They're incredible. They treat the girls like they're princesses. It's really. Wonderful. And they do teach the skills of how not to go back on the streets and finding your worth in Jesus and your [00:41:00] value. You're not just a piece of meat to be used, you are a daughter of the king. And so yeah, I'll definitely give you their contact information. Do you know Mark Sowersby? Oh yeah. Mark. He's, he's been, uh, on my podcast before. He's a survivor. Yeah. Big time. So. I know that we talked about a lot of different things. Was there anything that we didn't cover today that you wanted to share with the audience? Yeah. So if the Lord is leading you and you feel like, feel like the Lord's saying, support this ministry and uh, give us the opportunity and the tools to go out and reach more survivors of trafficking. 'cause we're working in Chicago right now. And there, there's a plenty of harvest there, but there's also other places that we want to serve as well. Yes. You can go to, partners.gifts fork glory.com and that'll take you right to the, ag website where our, page is. And you can log in and, or you can sign in as a donor. And if you can do one time gift, [00:42:00] if you can do a monthly gift, or if you wanna do the faith promise, which is just your promise between you and the Lord of what you're. Willing to commit to support us. Anything is gonna help us get there. The website is partners.gifts for glory.com and whatever the Lord puts on your heart is gonna be, well appreciated and is gonna be used to serve many survivors. And you know, part of what we're doing is also doing podcasts. 'cause we wanna raise awareness that this is an issue. Mm-hmm. And we are hoping that between working with survivors. Doing advocacy by going, on podcasts or media that eventually we'll work ourselves out of a job and that there will be no more trafficking, there'll be no more slavery. That would be the biggest blessing of all is if we could work hard enough and the Lord would move enough that we would see an end to it. Mm, amen. Yeah. Even if you don't have the money right now to support. Dave and Bobby, you can definitely share this episode. Tell your friends [00:43:00] about the ministry. I definitely have that in the show notes, and we're gonna share the podcast episode like crazy and anything else you wanted to share. If you're listening or watching, be sure to subscribe to the wounds of the Faithful. Check every episode out and I'll go back and see how much I've changed in the last two years since the first time I was on. Yeah, I'm gonna put the episode of Dave's testimony, his story in the show notes, so you guys can just click on that and listen to that. This was great. Had a lot of fun and laughter and learn some things, and you guys are always welcome to come back on the show and give us an update. Absolutely. To see how you're doing and when you open your center up in the future someday. Then I'm gonna come and cut the ribbon. Absolutely. I've been in Chicago a few times. It's a nice city, so God bless you guys, and we wish you the very best. Thank you so much for having [00:44:00] us. Yes, Diana, thank you so much for having us. We love you and we love the show. Love you guys too. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend you could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org. Where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.    

TRANSCRIPT video1290704010 Gissele : [00:00:00] Was Martin Luther King Jr. Right? Does love have the power to turn an enemy into a friend? Does it have the power to heal? We are creating an inspiring documentary called Courage to Love. The Power of Compassion explores the extraordinary stories of individuals who have chosen to do the unthinkable, love and forgive even those who have caused the most deep harm. Through their journeys, we will uncover the profound impact of forgiveness and love, not only on those offering it, but also on those receiving it. In addition, we’ll hear from experts who will explore whether loving compassion are part of our human nature and how we can bridge divides with those we disagree with. If you’d like to support our film, please donate at www MAI tt R-I-C-E-N-T-R e.com/documentary. [00:01:00] Hello and welcome to The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking about not feeling good enough and what we can do to start feeling better. Our guest today is Sabrina Trobak Based out of Fort St. John BC Canada is a registered clinical counselor and author of the book, not Good enough, understanding Your Core Belief in Anxiety. She’s also a clinical supervisor, public speaker, and holds a master’s degree in counseling psychology. Before establishing her practice, she dedicated over 20 years to education, serving as a teacher, vice principal, school counselor across three school divisions. Sabrina, has extensive training in addressing trauma in its effects on daily life, [00:02:00] including anxiety and the core beliefs. Of not being good enough, not important, not valued. Her counseling agency Trobak. Holistic counseling aims to help individuals identify, challenge, and transform these core beliefs into being good enough, important enough, and value. Please join me in welcoming Sabrina. Hi, Sabrina. Sabrina: Hi. Nice to be here. It’s nice to meet you. Gissele : Oh, nice to meet you too. Thank you for being on the show. I was wondering if you could start by telling the audience what sort of led you to do this sort of work? Sabrina: I always wanted to be a teacher, you know, even in kindergarten, I was the kindergartner helper that helped other kids tie their shoes. Just was always something I wanted to do is be a teacher. Towards the end of my teaching career, I was a school counselor. And even as a teacher, I was a learning assistant teacher, so I did a lot of work in smaller groups, working more individually with students. So you get [00:03:00] to create a much deeper connection because you’re working one-on-one as opposed to a class size of, you know, 25, 30, 35, whatever it might be. And so then I went into counseling. Same thing. You really get to build that relationship. And then I went to a workshop on suicide. That was looking at suicide, more of a symptom of that core belief. Feeling not good enough. Not important, not valued. At the end of the workshop, I just thought, this is what I need to do. So the presenter, Tony Martins taught me his model of therapy. I quit teaching and started my own private practice, which really uses that as the focus point. So really going back and helping people understand and support and challenge that core belief. I started my own private practice in 2010. And within about six months I had a waiting list and I hated having to turn people away. The model I practice where we’re really addressing that core belief is a long-term model of [00:04:00] therapy. So a lot of my clients are with me a year and a half, two years, sometimes even longer. And so I decided to write the book not good enough as a way to provide a resource for people who can access counseling for whatever reason. Gissele : That’s beautiful. Thank you. And reflecting on your teaching experience, did you find that students were suffering from not feeling good enough? And do you think that’s changed? Sabrina: Students, teachers, parents, administration, support staff? Yeah, it’s kind of a worldwide thing. You know, I think it’s been there for a really long time. I think what we’re seeing a difference in is. People are talking more about mental health. So rather it being this thing that we just kept down and suppressed and pretended wasn’t an issue. Now we’re talking about it and the problem with that is we don’t necessarily know what to do with it now that we’re talking about it. So it seems like it’s kind of imploding all over the place. But you know, I think it’s been going on forever and [00:05:00] ever, and ever and ever. In fact, your core belief develops based on your parents’ core belief. If your parents’ core belief was not good enough, not important, not valued, they can’t really teach you anything else. So that means that was that generation. Well, where did they get it from? Their generation, and it just kind of goes on and on and on and on. Gissele : I really appreciated that you said that. ’cause that has been my experience that we are just now vocalizing the fact that we have these feelings. And to some people it’s like, we didn’t have these things before. That’s just simply not true. It’s just that now it’s feeling safer to talk about it. We want to address the issues and want to understand where this sort of came from. I wanted to really. Touch on the concept of not good enough. Because at least in my experience, I wasn’t that sort of person that criticized themselves. I didn’t say call myself a loser. My not good enough actually showed up in a very different way, in a [00:06:00] very covert way. I would say in terms of limiting my dreams or really negative thinking in terms of like catastrophizing. how does not feeling good enough show in different people? is there specific patterns or is it just very different depending on the person? Sabrina: I think the main pattern is it holds you back. it doesn’t allow you to feel content, feel peaceful, feel confident. That would be a common pattern, but what that can look like can vary significantly. Also, the degree of your core belief can play a significant role as well. You might be feeling, you know, actually pretty good enough, important and valued just once in a while. That not good enough, not important, not value comes up. All the way to the other where really everything, every thought you have is reinforcing and supporting that not good enough, not important, not valued. So it can look like a variety of different ways. We get clients who come into counseling for all kinds of different things. [00:07:00] Relationship issues, anxiety, depression. They can’t really sleep. They’re having nightmares. Pornography gambling, alcohol, drugs, cheating, lying you name it, all kinds of different things. What we say is. These aren’t really the problem. These are the symptoms of that core belief. If your core belief is not good enough, not important, not valued, you need to distract, but you’re gonna be going to things that allow you to distract that ultimately end up reinforcing that core belief because it gives you something to beat yourself up over. Hmm. So it can look like a variety of different behaviors For sure. Gissele : Do you ever see people with like health issues? Sabrina: Oh, all the time, for sure. Mm-hmm. Stomach issues, headaches, sore aches and pains. What happens when with that core belief not good enough? it creates a lot of self-doubt and insecurity. Anxiety is lack of [00:08:00] confidence. Not believing in yourself. You can handle something. A lot of people think anxiety is about the trigger, right? I have anxiety of driving on the highway. If it really was about driving on the highway, then no one would be driving on the highway. So it’s not about that. It’s about my belief and my ability to handle it. So if I believe I can handle driving on the highway, I’m not gonna have anxiety. If I can’t, I believe I can’t handle it. I will have anxiety. So that anxiety, that self-doubt, every time we go into anxiety, that fight, flight, freeze, adrenaline gets dumped into our body. That gives us that boost of energy to fight or to run away. But if I’m creating all of this anxiety in my head through my own thoughts, or it’s creating a sense of danger, I think I’m in danger, but I’m not really in danger. It’s the catastrophizing thoughts, the negative thoughts, the beating yourself up, the what if scenarios. Every time you go into that fight, flight, freeze, that adrenaline, that energy has to come from somewhere.[00:09:00] So what happens is it zaps all of our non-vital organs. Stomach, bladder, pancreas, kidney, liver, skin all of our non-vital organs get zap of energy. So if you have really high anxiety where you’re going into this fight, flight, freeze response, hundreds of times a day, you are going to see a physical impact. Absolutely. You know, if your stomach is being zapped a hundred times a day, don’t expect it to digest food properly. That’s, it’s just not gonna work. Gissele : Oh, thank you for that. I really appreciate that. That also got me to think about my experiences with trust. I used to have huge trust issues ’cause I was raised with like, my parents also had views and trauma and, it was when I realized that I didn’t trust myself to deal with people’s betrayal, not necessarily trusting the other people, that things shifted for me. It was me realizing that it was like, oh, this is about me. This isn’t about them. And their behavior, whatever they choose to do, is [00:10:00] entirely up to them. if they choose to betray me, well then that’s their choice. But it was about me. What are some things that can help someone become more aware of whether or not. They’re not feeling good enough. Sabrina: You know, I think that one, the one that you just kind of said where you don’t trust, you think you can’t trust in other people. Anything where you’re doing, where you’re focusing on others, blaming others caring to others, people pleasing for others, judging others, gossiping about others. All that time that you spend focusing on other people is all time. You’re not spending on yourself. Why is that? It’s usually because that core belief is there. We don’t like ourselves, we don’t wanna deal with it, so we’re focusing on all these outward things. As long as you’re fo focusing outward, there’s likely a bit of that core belief going there, and it’s not gonna get better until you focus more inward. Gissele : Mm, [00:11:00] yeah. To what extent do you feel like the systems we’ve created also perpetuate that, continue that belief? So not only the belief that kids were taught from their parents, but also when entering in these different systems that we have created. Sabrina: You know, I think a, a lot of our systems are very symptom based. So, you know, I have anxiety. Okay, we’ll do these things to deal with the, anxiety you have depression. Okay, we’ll do these things to deal with the depression. You have anger, okay, here’s some anger management strategies, rather than really looking at why is it there in the first place. What’s fueling those things? So our society in general often has a very bandaid, approach. Just put a bandaid on it. But if you have a wound and you just put bandaids on top of bandaids, on top of bandaids, that wound doesn’t just not heal. It gets worse, it gets more infected, it becomes more painful. It creates more stress, more anxiety. [00:12:00] And so we really need to take that bandaid off. But our society, you know, even medical right? I have a sore throat, they just address the throat rather than looking at is there something going on that’s feeding that right? Yeah. our, policing system is all very reactive and again, very kind of punitive and system based rather than really what’s going on here, what’s feeding all of this underlying stuff. Gissele : Yeah, and I think it comes from the separation from within ourselves, right? Like not really understanding or seeing ourselves holistically and our separation from each other and from nature. And I think that’s kind of why we have these systems. Sabrina: And I think part of why we even have that system is because if I deal with the surface doesn’t create a lot of emotion. Mm. If I go a bit deeper, ooh, that creates more emotion, vulnerability, fear. Abandoned. Lonely. I don’t like to feel those emotions, so keep it surface. Minimal emotions have to play. One of the [00:13:00] big things that drives that core belief and a big issue in our society is. We don’t really feel our emotions again, I think we’re getting better at talking about them, but now it’s almost like, oh, I’ve got emotion. I need to stop rather than I’ve got emotion. I need to feel it so I can move through it. And so that emotion piece is massive. We keep things very surface, so we don’t really have to feel. Gissele : Yeah, absolutely, as children, some of us were taught like, don’t feel or only limit the scope of emotions. You can feel these emotions are okay, these emotions are not. And this took me a long while to realize that the reason why my emotions were limited, at least by my parents and people in my life. They didn’t have the emotional girth to be able to hold space for my difficult feelings. So they did not teach me how to hold space for my difficult feelings and how to hold space for my kids’ difficult feelings. And so it was a journey where I really had to understand and it took me shifting my [00:14:00] perspective because I think originally I felt it was my fault, right? As I got older and became a parent, I realized, oh, they didn’t have the space, so they had to squash my emotions in order for them not to feel uncomfortable because they couldn’t cope with it. Sabrina: If I’m as a parent, if I don’t like to feel my emotions, now my child is feeling emotion, well that creates emotion in me, but I don’t wanna feel my emotions, so I need to shut my child down. It’s okay. It’s not really that big of a deal. It’s fine. You’ll get over it. You know, you’re worrying about nothing. Minimize, minimize, minimize, which is teaching your child shut down and suppress their emotions as well. Where did they learn it from? Right. You know, if we’re not learning how to feel our emotions, we are learning how to suppress our emotions. Gissele : Yeah. Yeah. And then that comes out in a different way, in the worst parts of my journey in learning to love myself and, step into that worthiness was I realized a pattern I had some unexpected things [00:15:00] happen in my life that were shocking to me. they had such a traumatic effect that I would actually, with my negative thinking, create negative experiences so that I could control them. does that make sense? Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Gissele : but I wasn’t aware that I was doing that, So that uncertainty was very frightening for me and it’s very frightening for very many people. I’m just curious as to your thoughts about that. Sabrina: You know what I think uncertainty. Again, what feeds that is that core belief. So we can have all kind of experiences happening. If I don’t believe I can handle them there, there’s gonna be a lot of stress over all these situations. But if my core belief is good enough, important and valued, whatever comes up, I think o okay. I got it. this isn’t gonna be easy. This is gonna be a lot of work, but I can handle it. I can figure it out. But when there’s that uncertainty and that self-doubt often, rather than again, working inward on what do I need to do to build my confidence? We work look outward on how do [00:16:00] I control these things. And of course you can’t control anything but yourself. So you may have these things under control for a period of time, but eventually things are gonna collapse and then you can go, oh, see, no one cares reinforces and support’s not good enough. So as long as you’re using control as a way to try to. Try to kind of handle situations. It, it’s not gonna be highly successful. It’s about within yourself, building that confidence within yourself. Mm-hmm. Gissele : What has been your experience with surrender? I have found in my life and my experience that the more I surrender, the less resistance I have to things, the less I need to control. the more things work out, sort of in a very smooth way. does surrender have a role Sabrina: what we kind of refer to it as is responsibility. Do I have responsibility in this? If I do, then what’s my role? If I don’t, then it’s okay to me, for me to just remove [00:17:00] myself from it. And so we wanna look at that. if I have something that I do need to be accountable, I will take accountability for my part. But I’m not gonna worry about taking accountability for everyone else’s part. And if I have someone in my life who refuses accountability over and over and over again, then I need to learn from that and realize my expectations for this person need to look very different. Maybe I choose not to have them in my life. Maybe I do. But those boundaries look a bit different rather than constantly trying to get them to take responsibility. I realize that that’s not my place. I need to just figure out me. That’s it. Hmm. Gissele : Are there any sort of behaviors that don’t outwardly seem as issues of not being good enough but are or might be? Sabrina: Busyness is a big one. You know, it’s almost a bit of a bragging rights in our society to be busy, right? Oh, I’m so busy. I got this activity, I got this, I got my kids, I got this, I got this, I got [00:18:00] this. Busyness is not good. Mm-hmm. Busyness is a distraction. As long as I’m, again, running around focusing on all these things, you know, out in front of me, that’s all time I can use to avoid and distract from what’s really going on within me. So we often see that as a pretty significant symptom. Same with control. Micromanaging. A lot of people may see that as a healthy coping strategy, but it really is not a healthy coping strategy. You know, when we look at coping strategies, one of the things we talk about is, you know, a coping strategy in itself is not really healthy or unhealthy. It’s how I choose to use it, right? Mm-hmm. So if I go out and have a drink of wine with, you know, a couple girlfriends once every couple weeks or whatever, it’s probably a healthy coping strategy. But if I’m drinking because I’m feeling emotions and I need to numb everything, and I’m drinking way too much, and it’s damaging relationships. Then it’s more of an [00:19:00] unhealthy coping strategy. So we really need to look at why are we using it, if we’re using it so that at the end we feel good, we feel content. It makes us feel proud of how we’re handling things. It’s allowing us to feel our emotions sort through things. Probably healthy coping strategy. Unhealthy usually is used to the extreme, either way too extreme or we shut it off and don’t do it at all. Like exercise Now I’m not exercising at all. And so it’s used to the extreme. It’s used to escape and avoid dealing with things. It’s used to numb our emotions so we don’t have to feel our emotions. It ultimately, after we do it, we feel guilt, bad regret, reinforcing and supporting. Not good enough, not important, not valued. So rather than looking specifically at the behavior, we need to look at why am I using it? That’s gonna give you more idea of which core belief you are reinforcing. Gissele : So what do you think the role of compassion is in [00:20:00] helping somebody go through the difficult emotions? Because as a person who has done it, who sat with probably the most challenging emotions that she has faced, a lot of the fears, it can feel really overwhelming. What helps people sort of titrate or stay in it long enough to get to the other side of it? Sabrina: You know, I think like most things, it’s really about practice. The more you practice it, the more comfortable it becomes. You know, with a lot of my clients that are in their thirties, forties, fifties, you know, my oldest clients are in their seventies. They’ve spent decades avoiding feeling emotion. And so how do you start to feel emotion where that doesn’t feel absolutely overwhelming? ’cause most of them are full up with emotion. So the thought of feeling emotion is just too much. So we always go back and start very, very small. You know, I have a emotions list on my website, but really if you Google Emotions list, you’ll, you’ll find a hundred of them. I tell my clients, print them off, [00:21:00] put them all over your house. Then when you start feeling angry, overwhelmed, just kind of off like something’s bothering you, pick up the emotion list and just read through it. The emotions that you are feeling, you’ll recognize. So now you’re starting. Don’t even have to say it out loud, just read it. So you allow yourself to feel the emotion just a little tiny bit. Doesn’t feel quite as overwhelming. Then after you’ve done that a few times, then you can say the words out loud. ’cause even saying sad out loud creates a bit of sadness. So now I’m feeling a bit more confident. I keep using that for a while, then I get to that place where I can just stop and think about what I’m feeling in the moment. But it takes time and practice. You gotta build that up. So I think a big part of compassion is. Confidence. I have to believe in myself. I can handle being compassionate to myself and to others. Once we build that confidence, then that compassion almost just seems to more just kind [00:22:00] of naturally flow because we can let our own defenses down and really just be present and in the moment with ourselves or with others. Gissele : so thank you for that. I really appreciated that. what are some of the things or signs that will help them know that they’re changing, for example, that they’re starting to feel more good enough? Because I think sometimes we are very good at saying, these are the signposts of things that aren’t working, but what are some signposts of things where people are like, yeah, you know what? Things are changing. You’re changing. Sabrina: You don’t feel as stressed at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. You’re sleeping a little bit better, you smile a bit more. Mm-hmm. You are open to other people’s opinions, thoughts. criticism, feedback you’re not as defensive. You’re able to kind of just listen to what someone else is saying. You’re getting better at feeling your emotions and sorting through your emotions. You are [00:23:00] using more healthier coping strategies that at the end of it, you feel proud of yourself. Right. Whether it’s going for a walk or listening to music or doing some journaling, at the end of it, you feel like, wow, I, you know, I, I handled that really well. You are more patient, you are more calm. you are more open to other people’s suggestions. All those kind of things are suggesting you believing more in yourself. You can handle more. That means that core belief is shifting. You’re willing to take risks, try new things, listening to podcasts, different things like that where you’re stepping outta your comfort zone, creating new opportunities and experiences. Gissele : Yeah. Yeah. Somebody that I was talking to was saying that they’re gonna take two things that make them uncomfortable, like two risks a day. I thought that was pretty cool. Like a pretty cool idea to become more, much more comfortable with discomfort, right? Sabrina: For sure. [00:24:00] Remember, anxiety is lack of confidence, not believing in yourself. You can handle something, so every time you try something new. There should be more anxiety because it’s something you haven’t done before. Mm-hmm. Right. Even just building your confidence in taking risks and trying something new where now, oh, it’s scary, but I know I can handle it. ’cause I’ve stepped outta my comfort zone many times as well. One of the things we say in this model of therapy is nothing really stays the same. Yeah. So if you are not challenging and stepping outta your comfort zone, it’s getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. Gissele : Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. I’ve had many conversations with different people in my life and one of the things it’s like. I don’t like to say pick your hard but it is sort of like that if you face your, difficult emotions now, later on, it gets easier. The more that you choose from fear, the more you constrict and constraint, the smaller and smaller and smaller your world becomes. And it [00:25:00] feels much more difficult to do it. Later on do you find that your older clients tend to struggle a little bit more or is it just sort of buried? Sabrina: Well, okay. That’s a good question. So a lot of it is buried, but once we start opening it up, then yeah. And one of the things that the older clients have to recognize and acknowledge. Is the hurt they’ve caused to their adult children, their grandchildren, maybe even their great grandchildren, whereas someone who’s in their twenties and thirties, they haven’t had nearly enough time to hurt as many people. And so there’s not as much of that kind of responsibility piece with it, for sure. you know, hurt people, hurt people. So if I was hurting, the chances that I did things to hurt other people is really, really high. Part of the counseling that we do is we need to acknowledge it and sort through that. ’cause as long as I’m carrying a bunch of stuff where I’ve hurt other people, why would I believe I have the right to a happy content life? it’s not [00:26:00] balanced. So I need to deal with all those things that I’ve done to hurt people in order to really, truly heal. Hmm. Gissele : Yeah. And that’s very powerful. Shame and guilt can feel really overwhelming, right? people that don’t know how to regulate their emotions will do almost anything to avoid the feeling of shame, right? Because underneath there there’s a belief that you won’t be loved. And so what helps people work through the whole concept of shame? Sabrina: You know, I think shame loves not good enough and not good enough loves shame. They just feed off of each other for sure. And so it often is this thing that we’ve done that we feel bad about doing, and rather than just acknowledging it and addressing it, and understanding why we made the choices that we did. We just hold onto it. and as long as you’re carrying a lot of shame, you’re not gonna feel happy and content in your life. they just don’t balance out. Shame is significant. So one of the things you wanna do is, first, manage some of those other emotions. [00:27:00] Get better at feeling, you know vulnerability, loved, connected powerless, vulnerable, unheard and then start looking into the shame after you’ve had some experience feeling some of those other ones. If you start off with shame it’s almost too overwhelming and we just end up shutting it off. Then you have to acknowledge and allow yourself to feel that, take responsibility for the actions that created that shame, and then you can start to kind of move on. You know, guilt’s another one. a lot of us were raised with parents who used guilt as a parenting coping strategy. So it’s ingrained in our head that we just automatically feel guilty about everything because that’s how our parents tried to control our behaviors. So that’s a really ingrained thinking pattern more than an emotion. It is a thinking pattern. Mm-hmm. The good thing about that is we can go back and change it. The definition we use of guilt is [00:28:00] not living up to someone’s expectations, usually our own. Hmm. So once I challenge those expectations and change the expectations, the guilt goes down. So, for example, if I was always taught, you never say no, you please everyone don’t ever wanna upset or make anyone else unhappy. That’s my pattern of thinking, sacrifice to make everyone else happy. But now I’m thinking I wanna have a voice. I wanna start saying, no, I wanna start taking care of myself. Well, those collide. Yeah. I can’t say no and make everyone else happy. So I have to change and adjust my expectations. So my expectation now is I need to be respectful when I say no, but it is okay if I have a voice and it is inconvenience or awkward for the other person. That’s for them to figure out. Now as I tell myself that I’m not gonna feel guilty because I’m expecting that this may be uncomfortable for them, and that’s okay. That [00:29:00] guilt dissipates guilt’s more of a thought than it really is an emotion. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. You mentioned the difference between thoughts and emotions. And, and this is just my perspective, I usually find that. All emotions begin with a thought. So you usually have a thought first, which you have interpreted, and then some somehow have a big emotion about or not. Right? And so is it accurate that The habits that are formed from just your thoughts are easier to manage than ones that are based on thoughts and emotions. Sabrina: That’s how emotions are created. So what happens is we have a thought that creates a chemical reaction that we then feel physiologically in our body creating the emotion. Our thoughts create our emotions. So the good thing about that is if I’m feeling really anxious and I challenge and control my thoughts, the anxiety goes away. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Sabrina: Right? If I’m [00:30:00] feeling really angry and I can stop and go, what are my thoughts? And I can realize, oh yeah, those thoughts are gonna create anger, challenge, and change those thoughts, the anger goes away. So neutral thoughts gonna create neutral emotions. But if we’re having thoughts of people hurting us, of feeling taken advantage of feeling you know, of being unappreciated, that is going to create emotions that we then feel physiologically in our body. Gissele : Mm-hmm. you mentioned that whole concept of not good enough. Where does self-love fit into the whole concept of good enough? Sabrina: the more you feel good enough, important and valued, the more you feel loved and content, right? Our kind of end goal is that contentment. You just feel peace within yourself. you love yourself. I’m always a bit cautious around the word love. Because it has been warped in many situations. Yeah. I’ve heard [00:31:00] clients tell me love means taking abuse. Mm-hmm. Love means sacrificing myself to not cause any, issues. Love means keeping secrets. Yeah. Right. Then we have the other extreme where we say, I love you now almost too much. It’s almost like, hi. Like I’ll say, oh, you know I love you. Oh, and I love spaghetti. Well, Gissele : yeah. Sabrina: So what does that really mean? So I think we need to even be aware of what is my definition of love? Is it a healthy definition or is it more of an unhealthy definition? And then what? What else does that look like? Contentment. Peace, calm thoughts. You know it, you’ve gotta define it. love is almost a bit of that symptom word. We need to go deeper. We’ve gone through generation, you know, my parents were never said, I love you. Never said it at all. and didn’t have to, didn’t create any emotions. But now we still don’t wanna say feel emotions, so now we [00:32:00] say, I love you a thousand times. So it really still doesn’t create a lot of emotion. Mm-hmm. So I find that balance and really be careful of what that word means to us, for sure. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for that. And so using whatever different term you’re gonna use, as long as you’re getting at the same thing which is about thriving, I think is really important. You mentioned that anxiety is lack of confidence. What’s depression? Sabrina: they go together in a cycle, right? Mm-hmm. So anxiety is that fight, flight, freeze on guard, ready to attack. Well, you can only do that for so long and it’s exhausting. So then we kind of slip into the depression where I just don’t have to feel anything. I can curl up in a bit of a ball. I don’t have to deal with anything, but then that kind of passes I feel a bit better. So I come out of that, but now I’m in that fight flight freeze again. So we often see depression and anxiety often working together in a cycle for sure. Depression, you know, is [00:33:00] another way of reinforcing and supporting that not good enough if I feel not good enough. Not important, not valued. What’s the point? Why bother? So, you know, just like we talked about how that core belief can present in alcohol, drugs, gambling, anxiety is one. Depression is one as well. Gissele : I also wanted to emphasize the fact that, you know, the work that you’re doing is focusing on people feeling good enough from within. Many people try to find it from outside, whether it be through overworking, like you mentioned, through acquiring all the things they think they should have or by acquiring love from outside. What sort of the mindset shift that needs to happen for people to realize that? It’s something that they can give to themselves from within versus from without. Because if you look at this world, everything in this world that we teach is get it from the external. Sabrina: if my core belief is not good enough, not important, not [00:34:00] valued, I don’t believe I have much to offer even to myself. But if I get it in a car, a big house, if I get a new dirt bike, if I have the best, whatever it is mm-hmm. Then I’ll be good enough. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Sabrina: As long as you’re looking externally, you’re not going to find it. But if I don’t believe in myself, I don’t really believe that I have it within even myself. So I think that’s one of the first stages, is really becoming more aware of where is my core belief at. How much do I really give myself that opportunity to feel good enough, important and valued. Once you become aware, even just becoming aware starts to develop that core belief good enough, important and valued. ’cause now you know what’s there and you’re willing to challenge it. Honestly, if I don’t think I can even handle doing that, I’m not going to. So once we even start to become aware of it, that core belief is shifting. Once that core belief shifts, then we can continue to build on it little tiny step at a time where we start to find more of our own worth and [00:35:00] value within ourselves. As we do that, we just naturally start to kind of look more inward and don’t worry so much about the outside stuff. Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Gissele : But the journey towards. Shifting from not feeling good enough to feeling good enough can sometimes feel very challenging, right? Because you are dealing with difficult emotions. What are some of the things that keep people moving forward? Sabrina: it can be absolutely terrifying, you know? Mm-hmm. I’ll say to my clients, going through and challenging and changing this core belief is going to be one of the hardest things you’ve ever done. The only thing maybe harder is living the way you’ve been living. Yeah. Right. But the only way to really keep is you gotta let all that stuff out. Well, letting all that stuff out sucks. Mm-hmm. It is lot fun. It’s terrifying. It’s a lot of work. It’s exhausting, but going very, very [00:36:00] slow helps you build confidence so you feel more in yourself. You can handle it. Reminding yourself that to heal, I gotta let this out. The more you let it out, the better it is. You are never going to feel emotion that you aren’t carrying. So if there’s emotion there, let it out. Mm-hmm. Every time you do that, it gets a little bit easier and you feel a bit better. Right? Mm-hmm. We have a good cry. We always feel a bit of a sense of relief the next day. Continuing to do that. They work hand in hand. So as you practice, you’re learning more, you’re understanding more, but you’re also feeling better, feeling more content, feeling more good enough, important and valued, feeling more pride. So they feed off of each other and you can continue to move forward. But they’re definitely, I know for my clients, every single client, there are days where they think I don’t wanna do this. Like, what’s the point? You said I was gonna get better? I feel worse than I did before. Because you’re in it, right? Part of moving and getting healthy [00:37:00] is you may have a bit of an idea of what you wanna work towards, but you haven’t figured out how to get there yet. That is frustrating, but you have to keep practicing and practicing and practicing hope. You know, I think hope is okay for a period of time, but we need much more than hope. You know, if I’m going hiking in the Outback and I say to my guide. Do you know where we’re going? And he says, I hope so. I’m probably not going with them. Right. And so hope can can get us over that lip a little bit, but we need to have a plan. We need to have practice behaviors so we know what we’re doing, not just hoping. Gissele : Mm-hmm. And you know, as you were talking, I was thinking People who have done hard things, the people that overcame, you know, the Holocaust, they saw themselves beyond that experience. They might have died, but they needed to see themselves beyond that experience. So there is an element of belief that you can do it. There is that element [00:38:00] of desire to say, I don’t know how, I don’t know when, when I’m gonna get through this, this hurdle. What do you think the role of affirmations are in helping people gain more confidence and feel more good enough? Sabrina: You know what, again, it can be a surface level thing, right? I can tell myself a thousand times that I am good enough, but if I don’t believe it, it’s not going to do any good. So what we talk about with all those kind of. Tools is, it really is just a tool. It’s up to you how much you wanna apply it. So I can have an affirmation that I say, I, you know, I stick on a sticky note on my bathroom and I see it every day. But we all know after about five days, we don’t even really notice it there anymore. It’s not, gonna be of benefit, but if I’m using that affirmation to remind myself, to reframe my thinking, to challenge myself, to see things differently. Then they can have an impact. So it’s not so much about the tool, it’s about how [00:39:00] am I using it? Am I using it to make changes to believe in myself or am I using it to actually beat myself up? Gissele : Yeah. Yeah. Are there any other tools that you think that are helpful in helping people start on their journey? Sabrina: I think there’s two really important pieces. First one is breathing. So when we’re going into that fight, flight, freeze response, and we’ve got adrenaline being dumped into our body, we also have a chemical called cortisol being dumped into our brain. Cortisol stops us from thinking we can’t use logic and reason, understand consequences feel our emotions. It has a massive impact in our brain. Breathing stops that fight, flight, freeze response from happening. So if I’m in danger, we often hold our breath shallow breathing. When I take nice deep breaths, my brain goes. Oh, we’re not in danger. And so it is a really effective tool in helping to stop and [00:40:00] break that fight, flight, freeze response from happening. What I usually say to my clients is don’t wait until your anxiety is a 10 outta 10 to breathe. You definitely need to Breathe outta 10, outta 10, but start breathing regularly throughout the day. It just brings everything back down. So breathing is a really, really effective coping strategy for sure. But the other one is make a plan. Remember, anxiety is a lack of confidence. Well, if I have a plan of how I’m gonna handle something, I’m going to feel way more confident in handling it. So a lot of times we have those worry thoughts, those what if scenarios, we just let them repeat over and over and over and over and over in our head. We say, take that thought, write it down on a piece of paper and figure out what do I do if this happens? Once we have a plan, we realize, oh, I could handle it. That anxious thought goes away. If it’s still there a little bit, it’s gonna be much less. But then you [00:41:00] just remind myself, no, I just do A, B, and C, and I would handle it. Even taking that to worst case scenario. Right. So, you know, let’s say I’m working with a student who is worried about failing a test. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Sabrina: So we can make a plan about what do you do to not fail the test. But that’s not the worry thought. The worry thought is what if I fail? So what if, if you fail your test, what do you do? You talk to the teacher, you know, you see if you can rewrite, you study more for the next ones. You do really well on your presentations so that you are bringing your markup, okay, so I can handle failing this test. Worst case scenario, what if I fail the whole course? So what do you do? You retake it. Maybe you drop out and you start working. Even the worst case scenario we could handle. So once we start making a plan, we can really help believe in ourselves more that we would handle it. [00:42:00] Might not be fun, might not be great. I probably won’t even be very graceful in doing it, but it will happen. We are way more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. You. Think about all the experiences you’ve been through in your life. You’ve survived them ’cause you’re here now. Mm-hmm. We need to stop and look at that. I’ve handled all these things. Can I handle failing a test? Yep. Probably. Mm-hmm. Won’t be fun. Mm-hmm. It’s gonna create emotion that I don’t wanna feel, but yeah, I can handle it. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Sabrina: So I think those are two really important strategies. Breathing and make plans. Mm-hmm. Gissele : Is there a level of detachment that should happen when you create a plan? during the time. When I was challenged the most creating that plan might’ve introduced a lot of resistance in me if it didn’t come through the way that I had planned. And so I think that would’ve generated a little bit more fear in me. Is there a level of detachment or maybe different options that would’ve helped and [00:43:00] the other thing that would probably have arisen in me was well, I’m feeding that experience. I’m saying that that’s gonna happen. Sabrina: Yeah. Right. Well, well, and the problem is, you probably are already thinking that’s gonna happen a thousand times in your head. Yeah. So let’s just acknowledge it and say, okay, what do, if it happens? Mm-hmm. With a lot of our anxious thoughts, they never even really happen. So we don’t even have to put the plan into place. But in knowing we have a plan builds confidence, which means those anxious thoughts are going to go down. You know, when we first start doing it, well, I think even after we’ve been doing it for a really long time. We can have a plan and the chances that it’s gonna go exactly the way our plan is, is laid out not very high. That’s just not the way life works. Mm-hmm. So the first few ones can be, frustrating, but after you’ve made plan 10, 15, 20 times, you start realizing, okay, I can adapt that piece and I can challenge that piece. And I never even thought about that, but I figured out how to handle it because it’s not even really about the plan. It’s about [00:44:00] building confidence, helping me realize I got this, I can handle it, I can figure it out. And so over time, that happens. But the, the plan is often more thought based than emotion based. It doesn’t have to be, but often it is. It’s more, you know, I’m thinking through more than I am really feeling through. Gissele : Hmm. I was just thinking of a quote that I had heard about how people with good mental health are people that are the most flexible. Flexible and flowing who are willing to go with life. It’s not that life doesn’t give you adversity or things don’t happen. it’s the willingness to be flexible and the ability to bend. And it really is the people that are the most in resistance and struggle the most, or the people that are want to control and are not. Able to adjust, Sabrina: right? More. My core belief is good enough. The more confident I’m gonna be. So the more, no matter what comes up, I got it. I’ll figure it out. Core belief, not [00:45:00] good enough. More insecurity. I don’t trust in myself that I can handle any of these things, so it’s gotta go exactly like plan. Mm-hmm. And so it’s, it’s building that we, you know, we don’t want that plan to be like a routine where it has to go A, B, C, D. It’s more about how do I handle these kind of scenarios and building that confidence rather than creating more rigid plans. For sure. Gissele : Yeah. And that flexible and flowing can make you feel like. Right. Because when you stop controlling things in your life, there’s an openness, there’s a sense of, oh, I don’t have to do all of that. I don’t have to control life anymore. I can just allow it. And that doesn’t mean that things aren’t gonna happen. You know, there’s a difference between pain and suffering, right? Everybody experiences pain, whether we choose to. Suffer is optional. Like when I think about my experiences, many times I [00:46:00] experienced pain, but I was the one who was causing myself suffering by repeating those same thoughts and constricting and all of that stuff. But it’s hard for us to acknowledge that we are doing that to ourselves. Right? Right. Sabrina: It’s that responsibility piece. I think same with the word stress, right? People often talk about how everything is so stressful. You create your own stress. If you go into it thinking, I can’t handle this, yeah, you’re gonna be stressed out. But if you go in feeling confident, knowing that no matter what comes, you’ll figure it out and you will handle it. It’s not as stressful. there are varying things for sure, something really significant happen. It may create more stress than other things, but if we’re really stressed all the time, you are creating your own stress by how you are thinking about how you’re gonna handle the event. Not the event itself. Gissele : Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to share where can people find you? Where can they work [00:47:00] with you? Tell us a little bit more about your book. Sabrina: Sure. So my book is not good enough. Understanding Your Core Belief and Anxiety. It’s available on Amazon’s. It is a handbook. So you’re reading about core belief and in general, but then you do an activity where you’re applying that information to your own personal experiences. So it’s a, a book about self-reflection, learning more, understanding more about your core belief, and then how is it, you know, showing up in your life. And then what do you do? What are some things you can do to challenge yourself? To start to feel more and more good enough, important and valued. I am also on on most social media. I am Sabrina Trobak on YouTube and on LinkedIn. I am NGE. So not good enough. Understand. NGE_Trobak on Instagram and NGE_CoreBelief on TikTok. And then I’m on Facebook as well in [00:48:00] Trobak holistic counseling. Mm-hmm. Wonderful I have a website, http://www.trobakholistic.org. On my website is a page to my book. It’s got a blog section, which is just short, two to four minute reads about everything. Also got a link, a page that links all of the podcast interviews that I’ve done as well. Gissele : Hmm. Beautiful. So one final question. I ask this of all my guests. What is your definition of love? Sabrina: I, I would say my definition of love is. Probably just one word. Acceptance. Mm-hmm. Acceptance of self and others. And, and sometimes that means giving love and sometimes that means moving on. Gissele : Hmm. I like that. I like that. Even acceptance of situations. Right. If you have the confidence to believe that you can overcome anything, it’s just acceptance. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Sabrina, for being on the show and for sharing your wisdom with [00:49:00] us, and thank you to those who tuned into love and compassion with Gissele Stay tuned for another episode.

“MM 374 Lessons On the Way”Luke 2:41-52Matthew 3:16-17”

Relationships are the key to B2B sales.  But implementing a process to dramatically enhance those relationships is another story. That's where entertaining comes in.  Many salespeople never consider it.  Yet, it can, and has, provided a competitive advantage if you do it right.  In my own experience, I can trace a $2 MM account directly to an entertaining event.  And the biggest, richest sale I ever had was set up by an entertaining event.  In this post, I explore the Why's and how's of entertaining.  Check out The Excellence & Influence Course for Sales Leaders

Burnout shows up quietly, and in this conversation, I think you will hear just how deeply it can shape a life. When I sat down with Kassandra Hamilton, she opened up about building a meaningful career in global and Indigenous health while struggling with exhaustion, anxiety, and the pressure to look like everything was fine. Her turning point came when she finally stopped long enough to ask what she truly needed. Kassandra talks about people pleasing, giving her power away, and the inside out process she now teaches to help others realign their lives. We walk through the RAIN method, the importance of boundaries, and the small daily choices that help you rebuild trust in yourself. My hope is that you walk away feeling grounded, encouraged, and ready to take one step toward a more aligned and Unstoppable life. Highlights: 01:12 – Learn how early purpose can quietly shape the path you follow. 02:51 – See how a wider view of global health reveals what truly drives burnout. 06:56 – Understand how systems and technology can add pressure when they overlook human needs. 12:50 – Learn how hidden emotions can surface when you slow down and pay attention. 17:37 – Explore how reclaiming your power shifts the way you respond to stress. 24:23 – Discover how emotional regulation tools help you move through difficult moments. 41:18 – Learn how small, steady changes rebuild energy and direction. 47:36 – Understand why real burnout recovery starts with alignment, not escape. About the Guest: Kassandra Hamilton is an alignment life coach, bestselling author in 3 categories, musician, healer, and facilitator.  She is dedicated to helping others find inner alignment and live from the inside out, rather than in a burnout state or in autopilot mode. After completing a degree in biology and international development, and then completing a Masters of Science, she wanted to pursue a career in medicine.  She has always wanted to be of service to others, and as a child she literally had dreams of holding her hands towards people and visualizing light being sent to them. only way it made sense in terms of a traditional career trajectory while she was in school was to pursue medicine.  After completing her Masters degree, she decided to work alongside doctors to see what their day to day was like and how they were creating a positive impact in their communities.  What she actually saw was a lot of burnout, paperwork, and dissatisfied lives of people that were once passionate about medicine. She was working for Doctors of BC in Vancouver, with a high end office and apartment, when she collapsed one day in her apartment from an overwhelming sense of anxiety, burnout and grief.  She had lost her dog, her boyfriend, and both her grandparents all within three months.  On top of that, she was in a career that looked good on paper, but wasn't actually fulfilling her purpose of being of service to others. She no longer wanted to pursue medicine and didn't know how she got to a dead end if she had followed all the “right” steps according to society's blueprint for success. She spent the next few years really learning about her inner world and what her purpose in life was. She became dedicated to her own healing and coping with anxiety and burnout.  For the next decade, she began working with First Nations across Canada. She witnessed and learned about the importance of looking at the whole person, from a spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical lens.  Everything seemed to be connected.  As someone with a science background, she had always been fascinated with the intricacies and magical elements of everything that comes together in one singular cell.  Our emotions are energy in motion, and if they don't move through, they get stuck.  We decide if we allow our emotions to flow or not.  Kassandra also realized how powerful our minds are.  With one thought, we create a story.  That story becomes our reality.  With all of these realizations, she came to understand that we are literally magicians of our own realities. Kassandra has learned and experienced, time and time again, that health and happiness stems from our internal world first and is a combination of our mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional realms.  Once we deal with our inner worlds and live in state of awareness over how we are operating in the world, we can project that version of ourselves out into the world to create positive change.  In a world that constantly pulls us outward - with notifications, expectations, distractions “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” is about bringing us back home to ourselves.  Through deeply personal storytelling, scientific insights, and soul-centres practiced, Kassandra invites readers to reconnect with their inner compass.  This is a guidebook for anyone longing to move from autopilot to alignment and discovering what it truly means to live with intention, purpose, and clarity. Because the answers aren't out there, they HAVE to start from within.  We weren't meant to just get through the day. It is exhausting trying to fix and control everything “OUT THERE.” And the thing is, we have no control over what's happening out there anyways, We were meant to thrive and share our gifts with the world.  This is how positive ripple effects are made.  This is Kassandra plans to leave the world a better place, and support others to do the same.   With the external chaos, political mess, climate change, and growing tensions worldwide, She decided it was time to start creating some positive changes. She now has started a coaching practice committed to sharing her work with others, and her book compliments her work, outlining a 4-phase approach to moving from anxiety, fear, burnout, to living in alignment and inner power.  After a very successful book tour showcasing her bestseller (in 3 categories) “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” – she is going on tour.  But this isn't just any book tour – it is centred around creating community connections.  She will be doing wellness workshops and talks in local libraries, bookstores, and wellness venues around burnout prevention, boundaries, resilience, and authentic leadership, leveraging my book as a tool for this. She is currently in the planning stages and open to support in making this happen. Kassandra is dedicated to sharing stories that inspire personal development and growth. She brings a unique perspective to storytelling, blending data-driven insights with narrative. With years of experience in health information management projects with First Nations communities in Canada, she has become fascinated with the power of sharing compelling stories through complex qualitative data.  Her book is titled “The Magic of Realigning From the Inside Out” and is now available on Amazon and 50+ more platforms. Outside of writing, she loves traveling, dancing, hiking, paddleboarding, and putting on community events that promote inner healing and connection.  She also provides sound healing sessions, Ayurvedic Head Massage, and Bio-Energy Healing sessions at a local wellness establishment in her community.  She volunteers at Connective Society as a restorative justice mentor for youth who are struggling with a lack of leadership or role models in their life. Lastly, Kassandra is a singer/songwriter and a musician.  You can find her playing at local open mics, hosting backyard community jam sessions, or at gigs around Vancouver Island. She put out an EP under the artist name “Kazz” in 2018 called “Reflections” and has released 4 singles under this title since.  This year (2025), she started a new collaborative label with her partner who is a music producer, and they have released two songs under the artist name “Cyphyr & Myraky.” Her mission is this: So many people believe the answers are "out there" and feel helpless in the current state of the world environmentally, politically, economically etc. Instead of feeling helpless, paralyzed by fear, or living under the influence of external circumstance and chaos, we can create real change by first realigning from the inside out to reconnect with our inner power and creativity. Imagine a world where people took responsibility for their life, knew their purpose, and felt like they were living life in full alignment with this.  Imagine what our communities would look like then? Above all else, Kassandra wants to inspire others to create positive ripple effects out into the world.  Ways to connect with Kassandra**:** Instagram: @kassandra hamilton  Facebook: Coaching with Kassandra TikTok: coachingwithkassandra LinkedIn: Kassandra Hamilton Website: www.kassandrahamilton.com Linktree with all my info: https://linktr.ee/kassandra.hamilton Spotify: Under name "Kazz": https://open.spotify.com/artist/0gpUecr9VkVJMmVIyp1NFt?si=byM7VdL9QDeezl5-666XKQ&utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree&nd=1&dlsi=9a801d5edc774e1d Under name "Cyphyr & Myraky" - new collaborative label https://open.spotify.com/artist/3xUxZGxTseXQB2G9PVolMn?si=In3BLhX3SMK_c-3ukTlCfQ&utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree&nd=1&dlsi=d369f571e6384062 Amazon Link to Book: https://a.co/d/2yWISSu Book Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDKW9ZNrsvA Rogers TV Community News Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0eOnQ2DAdg Nanaimo News Bulletin Story: https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/local-news/nanaimo-health-and-life-coachs-new-book-guides-inner-alignment-8182386 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone. I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that you're here with us today. Our guest today is Kassandra Hamilton, from up in British Columbia, way, and she has, I think, a lot to talk about. She's a coach. She talks about burnout and but also about her many talents. She sings, she's a musician, and on top of everything else, she's an author, and she just wrote a book that has just come out. So we've got lots to talk about, or she has lots to talk about, and we'll talk about it with her. So, Kassandra, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Kassandra Hamilton  02:08 Thanks for having me, Michael. I'm really grateful to be here today. Michael Hingson  02:12 Well, I'm excited. There's obviously a lot to talk about, I think so. Tell us a little bit about the early Cassandra growing up, and all the usual things. You know, you got to start at the beginning somewhere, Kassandra Hamilton  02:22 absolutely, yeah, so as a kid, I mean, I've always been curious. My mom used to get very puzzled by me as a child, because I would always ask, like, who is God and how is the world made? And I just had all these questions. And it just never really stopped. When I was six, I had a vision of helping people and healing them with my hands, and I just saw this light between my hands and other people, and it was this recurring dream I kept having, and I didn't understand it in the practical sense. So I pursued a very traditional, you know, career in medicine, because that's what made sense to me, and the social conditions that we had in front of us, and that didn't really pan out for me. I just it wasn't resonating. I felt like the system was very rigid. And I just have always been fascinated with more of a holistic picture of someone you know, like their physical, emotional, spiritual selves, and so the just focusing on the physical alone just wasn't cutting it for me. I knew there was so much more, and I was so curious about all of that. So yeah, I've gone through different sort of journeys on my path, and come back to a place of really wanting to be of service and share some of the tools and strategies that I've learned along the way. Michael Hingson  03:47 Well, you started down the road of going into medicine, didn't you? Mm, hmm. And what was your master's in? Because I know you had your your master's degree, and then you started working with doctors. What did you get your master's degree in? Kassandra Hamilton  04:02 Yeah, so I completed a master's of science because it was in the stream of global health. And so I was really fascinated by the multifaceted aspect of that. And not just looking at physical impact in the world. We looked at, you know, political and economic, geographic indicators of health really gave me that sort of overall vision of what health looks like from from that bird's eye view. And then I wanted to pursue medicine after that, because, again, I wanted to be of service to others, but I ended up working with doctors to see if that's actually what I wanted to do, and I just saw the amount of burnout that doctors were experiencing and how 80% of their workload was paperwork. Michael Hingson  04:56 And so what did. You do. Kassandra Hamilton  05:02 So I left that work. I was there for two years, and it just I wasn't buying it. So I left. I started my own company as a consultant, and realized that a lot of the issues I was seeing abroad, I actually we had a lot of gaps here in Canada, especially with our indigenous communities, the disparities there were just huge, and so I focused my energy for the last decade on working with indigenous communities and unlearning a lot of sort of colonial ways of doing things and really integrating the holistic health model that is presented from from that culture that I was working with, and it's really, really been transformative and instrumental in the way that I approach health now, Michael Hingson  05:51 well, I'm curious about something sort of off the wall. I appreciate what you're saying about paperwork, and I'm sure there are all sorts of legalistic reasons why there has to be so much paperwork and so on in the medical world, especially when everybody's so concerned about things like malpractice and all that. But do you think any of that has gotten any better? Or how has it changed as we are progressing more to a paperless or different kind of charting system where everything is done from a computer terminal. I'm spoiled. My doctors are with Kaiser Permanente, and everything is all done on wireless, or at least on non paper chart. Types of things that they're just typing into the computer, actually, as as we're communicating and we're talking and I'm in visiting and so on, but everything is all done online. What do you think about that? Does that help any Kassandra Hamilton  06:53 so very great question. So when we're talking about accessibility, I'm going to say no, not for indigenous communities, at least here in Canada, I'll speak from my experience, but things have gone digital, and actually what I was doing was working as a digital health consultant to bridge health gaps in digital systems. Because what was happening and what still happens is there's systems that are quite siloed, and so a lot of health centers that are remote will be using paper still, or they'll be using system for that and another system for this. And so there's no wrap around, diligence around the client. And so there is this huge accessibility issue, which is what I've been working on for the last 10 years. Michael Hingson  07:41 Well, do you think that as well? Hopefully you'll see more paperless kinds of things go into play. But do you think in areas where the paper quantity has decreased, in the online or digital chart systems have come into play. Does that help burn out at all? Do you think again? Kassandra Hamilton  08:08 You know what? It really depends. Like you're you're only as good as your as your system allows, and so if you haven't allowed for inclusivity, and for example, a lot of the work that was funded in the first couple years that I was doing, there was no due diligence to figure out whether or not these remote areas even had internet. So without internet, they were pumping money into all of these systems that were super high tech, not culturally appropriate. A lot of elders don't even own a computer, let alone a smartphone or anything like that, or have service. So it was there was a huge disconnect there, and so part of the work I've been doing is a lot of advocacy and helping government agencies understand the connecting pieces that are are instrumental in the success of digital health implementation. Yeah, well, Michael Hingson  09:09 you know here, I know a fair amount about the whole digital chart system, because my sister in law was a critical care unit nurse at Kaiser, and then she managed several wards, and then she was tasked to be the head nurse for on the profit side, to help bring digital charts into Kaiser and and so I heard a lot about it from her and especially all the doctors who opposed it, just because they didn't want any change. They wanted to just do things the way that they had always done them. Yeah. And so the result is that they kind of got dragged kicking and screaming into it a little bit. But now I hear people mostly praising the whole system because it makes their job a lot easier. On the other hand, the other thing that happens, though, is they the system crams more patients into a doctor's appointment schedule every day, and so I'm not sure they're always seeing as much of patients as they should of any given patient, but I guess they have more doctors that specialize in different things. So no matter what happens, the doctors can all see whatever there is to see, because everything is in the chart, right? Kassandra Hamilton  10:41 And so Absolutely, in theory, and in urban areas where that works, you know, the digital systems are set up properly, absolutely. But in terms of going back to your question about burnout, if there's one nurse for one community, and she's a chart in five different, you know, systems that it's actually going to add to her burnout at the end of the day. Yeah? Michael Hingson  11:04 Well, yeah, and I appreciate that. I mean, so clearly, there's still quite a disparity, but it does, it does sound like in areas where they're able to truly bring digital charts and capturing information digitally into the system where, where that does exist, it can make people's lives, doctors, lives and so on, a little bit easier, and maybe contribute a little bit less to burnout. Kassandra Hamilton  11:34 Yeah, absolutely. And of course, that's the hope, and that's you know, why we continue to do the work to bring it into this, especially with AI too, like bringing more efficiency into the workplace, and it's all part of it. So yes, absolutely there's, there's definitely some, some hope, and some, you know, leaner, leaner ways of doing things for a lot of people. So yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  12:01 I'll hope it will continue to get better, and that the influence will expand so that the more rural areas and so on will be able to get the kinds of things that the more urban areas have. Now I live in an area that's fairly urban, but we don't have a Kaiser hospital up here. We have clinics, but we don't have a hospital. And apparently there's now, finally some movement toward making that happen. But it's interesting, where we used to live, in Northern California. We lived in a very what was, although we weren't, but was a rich County, and there were 200,000 people or so in the county, and there was a Kaiser hospital in the county. There was a Kaiser hospital about 30 miles away in San Francisco, and there were Kaiser hospitals going north, 1520, miles further north, in Petaluma. So there are a lot of hospitals, but we are in an area where there are over 400,000 people now, and there isn't a Kaiser hospital here, and that just has always seemed kind of strange to me. And the response is, well, the doctors don't want to move up here. I mean, there are all sorts of different reasons that are given, but it just seems strange. So if you really need to go to the hospital, they do have contracts that sort of work sometimes, or you have to go about 50 miles to get to the nearest actual Kaiser hospital, right? So it's strange. Kassandra Hamilton  13:38 It is strange. And there's a lot of things. Who knows who made the last call on decision? Right? So, right, yeah. Michael Hingson  13:48 Well, again, so the rumor goes they're going to be building a hospital here, and I think that will be a good thing. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. But you experienced burnout, Kassandra Hamilton  14:00 didn't you? I did? Yes, I tell us about that, if you would. Yeah, absolutely so when I was 27 and I went, that was Michael Hingson  14:13 last year, right? Kassandra Hamilton  14:14 Yes, thank you. It was 10 years ago, but on the outside, I was thriving. Michael, I was like, working for doctors of BC, I had an apartment on the ninth floor. I had an ocean view. I had the apartment downtown. I was, you know, dating. I was like, doing all these things. I was achieving, pushing and showing up. And inside I was running on empty, and I was very disconnected from my purpose, from myself, and that breakdown became eventually a breakthrough, but in the process, you know, I lost all my grandparents and my dog, and I didn't have tools for dealing with my anxiety. Yeah, and social media sort of just amplified that sort of comparative feeling, and I just started to slow down and like really realign, and I realized how many people were living on autopilot and surviving instead of thriving. And that's really when I wanted to become committed to helping others reclaim their purpose and their authenticity, and not just bounce back from burnout, but like rise into something greater, and like reconnect with themselves and their why of their purpose of being here. You know, Michael Hingson  15:33 yeah, because you you thought you were thriving, but you really weren't. Yeah, exactly which is, which is unfortunate, but still, those kinds of things happen. So what did you So, how did you go from experiencing burnout to moving forward and realigning? What? What did you learn? How did you discover it and what actually happened. Kassandra Hamilton  16:01 So I, you know, I, for a long time, went through my own inward journey. And I, you know, I went to counseling, I sought other ways of healing, through energy work, I tried all the different tools and modalities, and I realized over time, it meant flipping the script, and most of us live from the outside in, and we're chasing expectations and people pleasing, letting circumstances dictate our worth, and living from the inside out to me meant connecting with who I was and my values and and the truth of finding my like finding my purpose, and letting that be the driver, and that means having boundaries. It means speaking up when you're when you're scared or you have fear. I know you've done a lot of work with fear and how to leverage that for a more positive outcome, rather than letting it stop you. So in my life, that shift has really helped me stop outsourcing my power and allowed me to show up authentically in my work and my relationships and creativity, and that's where my freedom and vitality really lives, and I really want to share that with others. Michael Hingson  17:12 That's interesting. Way that you put it, you're outsourcing your power. What do you mean by that? Kassandra Hamilton  17:18 I was giving my power away. I was waiting for someone else to approve of something that I did. I was showcasing my, you know, achievements, and that was how I attached value to my identity and who I was. Michael Hingson  17:34 And of course, what that really meant is that you, as you said, it was all about people pleasing and so on. And how did you change all that? Kassandra Hamilton  17:43 It wasn't overnight, I'll bet it wasn't, yeah, and so I changed all that by getting curious and by going inside. And I have a four step process that I share in this book that I've now written. And the first step is to observe yourself, like, how are you showing up? What kind of patterns are coming up for you? And then starting to understand, like, why, where did those come from? And then starting to re tune that part of yourself, like, Okay, so that's how I'm showing up. How do I want to show up? And how can I change my patterns, and how I react to things, to do that, and that's how you start to, sort of like flip the narrative and limp from the inside out. Michael Hingson  18:26 How do people do that? Because we're, because we're, I think we're really trained to behave that way. We're we're trained to as, as you would put it, all too often, give your power away or outsource your power. And how do we change that mentality? Kassandra Hamilton  18:48 Yeah, well, we have to first observe ourselves. We have to look at, you know, how are boundaries being used in your life? Or are they even there? Are you showing up for yourself as much as you're showing up for other people? Are you being authentic in what really is, in alignment with your own values? Are you living on purpose? So these things are what we look at, and then I have tools and frameworks and questions to help people really start to observe themselves from an outside perspective and ask themselves, Is this really how I want to be living right now? Is this allowing me to live the life that I want? Michael Hingson  19:34 Yeah, and is it, is it helping me grow Exactly? And that's that's a lot of the issue that that we face. I know, in my my book live like a guide dog that wrote was published last year. We we talk a lot about the fact that people need to learn, or hopefully will learn, how to be much more introspective and. And analyze what they do every day, and really put that analysis to work, to to learn. What am I afraid of? What is going on? Why am I worried about this? Because I don't have any control over it and and people just don't grow up feeling that way, because we don't really teach people how to learn to control fear and how to be introspective, which is part of the problem, of course, right? Kassandra Hamilton  20:27 Or even how to manage our emotions, right? Like emotion is energy in motion, and if we do not allow it to move through us, it gets stuck, and it shows up in our bodies as a physical ailment, yeah. And that's the mind, body, spirit connection. That's why physical, mental, emotional health is so important to look at as as a whole, not just in silo. Michael Hingson  20:51 So how do you how do you teach people to take a different view than what we typically learned how to do well? Kassandra Hamilton  21:01 So once we've observed what people what people are, how they're operating, we then start to understand where it comes from. So a lot of people are programmed either by society or early childhood experiences, and then they are just operating on autopilot from those patterns. But they don't know that. So once you start like, awareness is everything, and once you see something, you can't unsee it. So at that point, it's like, okay, how can we move from this place to where you want to be? And so I have a lot of tools for understanding and processing your emotions in real time. I have tools for understanding and managing nervous like your nervous system, I look at it from a science and health background as well as a spiritual background. So it's like blending the tool to and understanding that healing isn't just physical and mindfulness and slowing down and journaling and just taking the time to actually try and understand yourself. Michael Hingson  22:03 So how has all of this changed how you live your life? Kassandra Hamilton  22:08 Well, I since I started operating in a different way, I bought a house. I bought another house, about another house, I, you know, wrote a book. I changed careers. I am coaching people now I'm just like really living in my element, in my my full purpose, which is have this written on my wall that I want to help others rediscover their magic, so we can all fly together. So it's really about spreading positive ripple effects in the world, you know, but starting at home and in our communities. And I believe that that inside out ripple effect is so much more powerful than anything we can do out there, Michael Hingson  22:56 just so that we get it out there. What's the title of the book? Kassandra Hamilton  22:59 It's called the magic of realigning from the inside out. Michael Hingson  23:04 Since we, we talked about it, I figured we better get the title out there. Yeah, thank you. And there is a picture of the book cover and so on in the show notes. But I just wanted to make sure that you, you did tell people the title. Well, tell me, is there an incident or a moment where you realize that your work could really create change in someone's life? Kassandra Hamilton  23:32 Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question. I've been asked that a few times, and the answer is that I just have a very strong morning practice where I journal. And throughout that journaling the last few years, I realized my process of integrating all of these tools and what it's done for me, and it just became like again, me observing myself through the pages and recognizing that I you know, it was my responsibility to share this, this work that I had done with other people, and not from a place of of ego, but really from that place of wanting to share stories and experiences in hopes that it will inspire others to, you know, take the time to Get curious and courageous about their own lives. Michael Hingson  24:22 Did you have any kind of an aha moment or a moment with anyone besides yourself that really caused you to realize, Oh, I'm really making a difference here. I'm really able to do this, and it makes a lot of sense to do what I'm doing. Kassandra Hamilton  24:38 Well, it's so funny, because informally, all of my friends will come to me for, you know, advice or coaching or reframing or whatever, and then eventually I was like, Man, I should get paid. And Michael Hingson  24:53 they're not your friends anymore, because now you're charging them, right? Kassandra Hamilton  24:58 So it's something that I've. Always really wanted to do, and I've always been fascinated by people and how their brains work, and what their resistance to change is, including my own. And yeah, I guess I just sort of had this moment a few years ago when I was like, I want to really focus my time on and energy to help other people have these moments of insight, or aha moments, or realizing they can pivot and actually start creating what they want in their lives. Michael Hingson  25:29 So what kind of tools do you use in your coaching process to help people do that? Kassandra Hamilton  25:34 Yeah, I lean on a lot of work from Gabor Mate and Deepak Chopra. I use tools that I've learned through Tara Brock. So my favorite tool, actually, that I, that I use, and I, I encourage people to try, is rain. And so if I could leave one sort of tool for people here today, it would be rain. And rain stands for recognize, acknowledge or accept, investigate, and then nourish. And so anytime people are in an activated emotional state or a negative emotion, they can sit away from their current situations, whether it's you go to the bathroom, or you sit alone for a few moments and you just recognize, okay, what is it that I'm feeling anxiety? Alright, we've named it. I recognize it. I'm accepting and acknowledging that I feel anxious. And then I is investigating, why do I feel anxious? What is the reason I feel anxious? And once you have figured out why, you can start to comfort yourself from a place of compassion, like it's okay to feel this way, you know Michael, like emotions are just children that want to be seen and heard, and the more you shove them down, the more chaos ensues. So when you comfort those emotions and you understand them, they move through you, naturally, emotion energy in motion. That's how we can assist ourselves in getting better at letting the emotions move through us. Michael Hingson  27:08 Yeah, and something that comes to mind along that that same line is the whole issue that you've already talked about, some which is talking about what what you feel, whoever you are, and be willing to express emotions, be willing to be honest with yourself and with other people. And again, I just think that we so often are taught not to do that. It's so unfortunate. Kassandra Hamilton  27:36 Absolutely, absolutely, we're not taught about anything. And I have a long list for the education curriculum, let me tell you, yeah, boundaries, you know, emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, yeah, reframing, Like there's just so many things, so many things. Michael Hingson  28:03 So you've, you've helped a lot of people, primarily, who do you do you coach? Who are your your typical clients? Or does it matter? Kassandra Hamilton  28:14 So I typically coach people between ages 25 to 40, but I actually recently had a senior reach out to me after she found an article in the paper, and so I'm not excluding people from who I work with, but generally speaking, that's sort of the age range is 25 to 45 people who maybe have reached a, you know, the career they thought they were always going to do and get there, and they're like, this, isn't it? This isn't it for me, I'm burnt out. I'm tired. It's not what I thought it was going to be. Or maybe they're in a relationship and they're stuck and feeling burnt out from that. So yeah, that's the age group that I work in. Because regardless of what issue you're working on, career, relationship, sense of self, these tools will help you pivot to really realign with your purpose. Michael Hingson  29:03 So how do you help people go from being stuck to realigning and empowered Kassandra Hamilton  29:10 through my four step process? So I don't want to give too much away, but people will just need to read the book to find out. Michael Hingson  29:19 Well, if you can describe maybe a little bit in general, just enough to Yeah. Kassandra Hamilton  29:24 So just like I was saying before, like first getting really clear on how people are operating, so that's the observed part, and then starting to understand themselves through the different patterns that are coming up on a weekly, daily basis. So it's a lot of investigating and getting data in the first couple weeks, and then after that, we start to understand how to rewire things through different tools that I introduce, and we do it in small, manageable steps. My coaching programs are either six weeks or two. 12 weeks long. And throughout that process, we try things, and everyone's different. So some tools stick, you know, more than others, and that's okay. I just have a the approach that I've moved them through, and by the end, people are having amazing experiences and feeling like it's life changing. And I have, you know, a lot of people reaching out with testimonials that I just, you know, really helped fuel me to continue this work. Michael Hingson  30:26 Have you done this at all with children? I Kassandra Hamilton  30:30 haven't, but it's so interesting that you asked that because I really love working with youth. I work in a restorative justice volunteer program here in my community, and it's all about providing mentorship and being a role model for for youth that have maybe lost their way. And that's definitely an area I'm curious about. It's funny that you mentioned that. Michael Hingson  30:55 Well, it just, you know, the the reality is that the earlier we can get people to think about this and change and go more toward the kind of processes that you promote, the better it would be. But I also realize that that's a it's a little bit different process with with youth, I'm sure, than it is with older, older people, adults and so on. But I was just curious if you had done any, or if you have any plans to maybe open any kind of programs more for youth to help them the same way, because clearly there are a lot of stuck youth out there. Kassandra Hamilton  31:37 Yeah, very much so. And to be honest, like with the amount of technology and information overload and state of the world, like the amount of overwhelm and anxiety among youth right now is just through the charts, yeah, yeah. So definitely something that's been on my mind, and I I'm very curious as to what sparked you to ask that, because it's definitely something I've been exploring so Michael Hingson  32:02 well, it just popped into my head that that's an interesting thing to think about. And I would also think that the earlier we can and in this case, you can, reach children, the more open they probably are to listening to suggestions if you can establish a rapport with them. The reality is that that at a younger age, they're not as locked in to ways of doing things as they might be later on, my wife was my late wife was a teacher for 10 years, then she loved teaching second and third graders, and she said even by the time you're getting to fourth graders, they're starting to be a little bit more rigid in their mindsets. And so the result was that it was harder sometimes to reach them. And I think that's true, and I and I know that everything I've ever read or heard younger the child, the more open they are, and the more they're able to learn. Like younger children are better able to learn more than one language and so on. And the earlier you can get to children, probably the better it would be all the way around. Kassandra Hamilton  33:19 Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, definitely, an avian Avenue. I've been curious and exploring myself. So, yeah, Michael Hingson  33:28 I wonder, I wonder what the techniques would be, because I'm sure that the techniques are going to be a little bit different than than what you face with older people, Kassandra Hamilton  33:37 not necessarily like I think at any age, it's good to learn about boundaries and why they're important and understanding what we think they are versus what they actually are. And same with, you know, seeking validation outside of ourselves. Like I don't think, I don't think it's quite I think it might be a little bit more stuck when we're older, but I don't think it's very different. Yeah, I guess it just depends. Just depends. Michael Hingson  34:07 Well, you talk a lot about boundaries, authenticity, authenticity and purpose. How does all that really go into your whole coaching program? Kassandra Hamilton  34:22 Sorry? In what sense, like, can you ask that it may be a different a different way? Michael Hingson  34:29 Well, um, you talk, you've you've mentioned boundaries a number of times, and authenticity and so on. So I'm just curious, how do they fit into what you do and what you want people to do okay? Kassandra Hamilton  34:41 So people will come to me and they're, you know, feeling burnt out. They're constantly on. They're juggling family relationships, digital overload. They don't have space to breathe, let alone, you know, connect with themselves. And underneath that, there's often a lot of people pleasing or fear. Not being enough or living by other people's expectations, and so so many of them are feeling exhausted, unfulfilled, lack of worth when they come to me and they're just like, I don't know what else to do. And often, a misconception about burnout is that you need to work harder for things to get better, or you just need a small break to reset, and then you're fine. But if we don't change anything in that, in the mind, in the mindset, then people are just going to go back to the way, the way they were. Michael Hingson  35:33 How would you really define burnout? Kassandra Hamilton  35:38 I would define burnout as people feeling helpless, feeling like they're living on autopilot, exhaustion, feeling like there's just so much to manage and they don't have the time or the energy again, feeling like they can't or don't know about boundaries, and yeah, they're unfulfilled. They're not feeling like themselves. And so what I would suggest for anyone who's feeling that way is one of the things you can do is just just pause, create a moment of space for yourself, even if it's just five minutes a day, ask yourself what you really need, and it sounds simple, but most of us are so disconnected or needs that we don't even ask the question. But that pauses our power. It can be the doorway to listening to yourself again, and from there, you can start making choices that really align with what you actually want? Michael Hingson  36:43 One of the things that I suggest, and we do it in live like a guide dog, and I suggest it to people whenever we get in these discussions, is, no matter what you say about not having time, you absolutely have time, especially worst case at the end of the day, when you're starting to fall asleep, take the time to analyze yourself, take the time to become more introspective, because you have that time because you're in bed for heaven's sake. So you're really not supposed to be doing anything else, or shouldn't, but it's a great time to start to think about yourself, and I think that's a great time to deal with all the things that you're talking about here as well. Kassandra Hamilton  37:20 Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah. And people have time for what they prioritize. That's that's the truth. And whether that's something people want to accept, it's absolutely the truth. You will make time for the things that are important to you. Michael Hingson  37:35 Yeah, well, and that's what it really comes down to does, isn't it that you're always going to make time for the things that you find are important to you, and the reality is that you'll be able to progress when you discover that some of the things that are important to you are the kinds of things that we're talking about here that will avoid burnout or get you away From that absolutely we just have to really neck us back to boundaries and authenticity and purpose. It just gets back to knowing what you really need, and ultimately, no one can know that better than you about yourself. Kassandra Hamilton  38:16 Absolutely, we have to reconnect to what matters and build the life that gives energy instead of only draining it. Michael Hingson  38:23 Yeah, and we can, we can do that, but we do need to take the time to make that happen, and that's why I really suggest do it at the end of the day. It's quiet and or you can make it quiet, and you can really learn by doing that you don't have to watch TV until an hour after you've fallen asleep, and then you wake up and discover the TV's on. You can take the time to become a little bit more introspective and learn more about yourself that way. And that's exactly what will happen if you really think about it Kassandra Hamilton  38:55 100% and you know, at my book launch, people were asking, like, how did you write a book, and it was like, it's not it's not hard in the sense that it's hard, it's hard because you have to show up every day. But that consistency, whether it's five minutes or an hour, like the consistency is everything. So showing up for yourself in small ways or whatever feels manageable at first, will naturally give you more energy to wake up early and give yourself more time. You know, it's just happens that way. Michael Hingson  39:25 Yeah, yeah. Well, I agree. What's your favorite tool that you use with clients? Kassandra Hamilton  39:31 So it would be the one I shared with you earlier rain. It has been very instrumental for people in transforming how long it takes them to go from from a place of fear or anxiety or resentment to just processing it and being neutral. And it's amazing. Michael Hingson  39:53 And again, just to reiterate, it rain stands for, Kassandra Hamilton  39:57 recognize, accept or acknowledge. Manage, investigate and nourish, Michael Hingson  40:05 that's cheating. You get both both spellings of rain in there. That's that works, but it makes perfect sense and and I'm assuming that you've felt you've had pretty good success with people. Have you had anyone that just resists, even though they come to you and they say, Oh, I'm burned out and all that, but you start to work with them and they just resist? Or do you find that you're able to usually break through? Kassandra Hamilton  40:35 So it's funny, because a lot of people that come to me are very resistant to it, because of the nature of burnout, where people feel like don't have the time or the energy right at the beginning, a lot of people are very resistant, and they say so in their testimonials. No, at first I felt resistant, but then I didn't know that these things were actually going to give me exactly what I what I needed. So I've worked with a couple nurses. I worked with a woman who was managing, like, working four jobs, and she was super burnt out. But eventually, probably by like two or three weeks in, people are starting to feel the differences, and they're, they're all in. So yeah, it does take a bit to get them there, but once they're there, they're they're flying so, Michael Hingson  41:22 yeah, oh, that's that is so really cool, because you're able to break through and get people to do exactly what we've been talking about, which is so important to do, Kassandra Hamilton  41:34 yeah, yeah. And you know the moments for me that just feel like, Oh, this is the work I meant to do, is seeing someone go from that place of burnout or defeat because they're working a job they don't enjoy to starting their own business that's leveraging their creativity and their passion, or they've repaired a relationship, or they're finally feeling confident in themselves like there's No better gift to me than to see that change in somebody. Michael Hingson  42:06 What are some of the most common struggles that you see in people? I know we've probably talked a lot about it, but you know, it's good to summarize. But what are some of the kind of the most common struggles that you find in people? And why do you think that people are experiencing so much burnout? And I'm assuming that those two are related, Kassandra Hamilton  42:27 yeah, yeah. So, okay, so if we were talking about career, people that are managing a career that is very demanding, and that is all they do, and they have no energy for time like for things outside of work. What they say is that they're feeling numb, or they're living on autopilot, or they don't recognize themselves anymore. Another shared that she was really scared of leaving because of a financial aspect. And so I think at that point, you just start to flip the narrative and ask, well, what are you sacrificing by staying right? So like, maybe we need to get a part time job while we're exploring our creativity and building a new business for ourselves, but it's 100% possible, and these programs are not meant to make these drastic changes overnight. They're small, incremental, consistent changes that over time bring you to a place of alignment with what you actually want to create in life. Do you Michael Hingson  43:34 find that there are some people who feel I can't stay here, I've got to leave or this boss isn't good, or whatever, when, in reality, it's it's something different, and that a mindset shift makes them discover that they really are in a good well, they're in a good position, or they have a good career, or whatever, but their perspective has just been off. Kassandra Hamilton  43:56 Yeah, absolutely. So someone said something to me the other day that it stuck with me at the time, but it was something like, If you can't, if you can't get out of it, you better get into it. Yeah, that's a good point. It's like, yeah, sometimes it's just with how you're showing up for yourself and for the people around you. And that's the shift that needs to happen. So it's not necessarily about leaving a job. Thank you for bringing that up. It is about changing your life from the inside, and a huge part of that is mindset and the energy that you're bringing to a situation. Because how you do one thing is how you do everything. So, yeah, Michael Hingson  44:41 it's it's like, well, one of the things that I constantly tell people is there are a lot of times that something occurs to you or that you're involved with you have no control over, because you're not the one that that did it, or you're not the one that directly made this happen. And but you always have the choice of how you deal with whatever happens. So even if you don't have any direct influence over something occurring, you have always the opportunity to determine how you're going to deal with it. And that's always something that I think is so important for people to analyze and think about. But I think all too many people don't Kassandra Hamilton  45:21 absolutely the power is in our pause. And that's something I tell people all the time, the power is in your pause. Slow down, take a second, don't respond right away. And then come from a place of power, and you know that it changes everything. Michael Hingson  45:38 Well, the reality is that the more of that that you do, the more you pause, the more you think about it. The fact is, the quicker, over time, you'll be able to make a decision, because you're teaching yourself how to do that Kassandra Hamilton  45:54 truly. Yep. Michael Hingson  45:56 And so for a while, you may not be able to or you you are not confident enough to be able to make a decision right away, which is fine, you should pause. But the fact of the matter is, I think what I really describe it as, and I think it's so true, is you need to learn to listen to your inner voice, because your inner voice is going to tell you what you need to do. And you just need to really learn to focus on that, but we don't. We always say, Oh, that's too easy. That can't be the right answer when it really is. Kassandra Hamilton  46:26 It really is. And so again, that pause is also about space, right? So when I feel triggered by something, I will take the space to let myself come back down from that and then ask myself what I really want, or again, coming back to boundaries, if someone asks me if I want to do something, and I'm a very social person, and I love connection, so right away, I want to say yes, I'll, you know, do that thing with you. Now I have a really beautiful way to still show that it's like something I want to partake in, but honor myself as well. By saying I love this idea, I need a little bit of time to figure out if I can fully commit to this, and I'll get back to you at this time so it shows integrity, not only to myself, but to to that person as well, and showing up in a way that it like, if I have capacity to do that, then I will, yeah. Michael Hingson  47:25 Well, if somebody listening to this kind of feels unfulfilled or stuck exhausted, what's the very first step that you would suggest that they take? Kassandra Hamilton  47:37 Just like I was saying, just take a pause. Michael Hingson  47:40 I knew you were going to Kassandra Hamilton  47:41 say that create a moment of space. Ask yourself, what's really going on and what you really want, and then ask yourself if your actions are all the choices that you're about to make align with that, yeah. Michael Hingson  47:56 And the reason I asked the question was, was really just to get you to reiterate that and to get people to hear it again, because we have to really come together in our own minds and decide what we want to do, and we shouldn't have knee jerk reactions. There's no need to do that, if we think about it and really take the time to ponder what makes the most sense to do. Can we'll get the right answers if we work at it Kassandra Hamilton  48:22 100% you just have to put in a little bit of curiosity and time to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson  48:33 What do you think is one of the greatest misunderstandings about burnout and what is the truth that you really wish more people knew? Kassandra Hamilton  48:46 People think burnout is just about being tired or needing a vacation, but it's so much deeper than that. And you know, it's a sign that we've been living out of alignment with ourselves, and that rest alone isn't going to fix it real, real recovery is is coming from changing the way that we live and setting boundaries and reconnecting with what matters and building a life that gives energy instead of strain. Michael Hingson  49:16 Yeah, again, it gets back to that authenticity thing. Kassandra Hamilton  49:19 Yep, that thing, yeah. Michael Hingson  49:26 What are some of the biggest transformations that you've seen from your clients that you're really pleased about? Kassandra Hamilton  49:33 I've seen clients go from anxious and depleted to, like I said, starting businesses that they love. And that wasn't even something that we worked on together, it was like just a few tweaks, you know, simple but not easy, shifts that they made. And then I get emails or comments about how they're starting businesses that they love, and they're full time booked in that so like that. That's been a big transformation. Question for a few of my clients. One woman was trying to find a relationship, and she had tried everything, and from all different angles, and it wasn't working, and truthfully, she needed to come back to herself and align with herself, and when she did that, you know, nine months later, she found the love of her life, and one client said she stopped feeling numb for the first time in years. Another shared that she actually laughed and felt joy again. And these transformations are powerful because they're not just surface change or changes. They're they're life changing shifts in how people see themselves and what they what they feel like they can create in the world. Michael Hingson  50:46 And ultimately, isn't most of this transformation or shift really a change in one's mindset. Kassandra Hamilton  50:54 Yes, it is mindset, and it is also taking the time, taking the time, having the courage and having awareness of how we are operating in our daily lives, and why, yeah, and then shifting that. Michael Hingson  51:12 Well, tell us all about the book. When did it launch, and what's happened, and what do you see coming down the line for it and so on? Yes, I know you have a lot to talk about, so tell us. Kassandra Hamilton  51:27 So the magic of realigning from the inside out is very much in line with what I coach about, which is about bringing us back home to ourselves. And I share a lot of personal storytelling and scientific connections and soulful practices that I've tried that have worked really well for me, and I really invite readers to reconnect with with themselves. So it's sort of like a guidebook like the first the first half of the book is a lot of stories, the second half is more tools and strategies. And overall, it's the idea that, you know, the answers aren't out there. They have to start within. And we weren't meant to just get through the day. It's exhausting to try to fix and control everything out there. The thing is, we have no control over what's happening out there anyways, and so we have our one wild and precious life, and it's like, what are we going to do with that, especially in a world that's constantly pulling us outward with notifications and expectations and distractions? Yeah, I really believe this is how we show up to make a positive difference in the world by working on ourselves and spreading that upward. Michael Hingson  52:40 So when did the book launch? Kassandra Hamilton  52:43 August 21 was my book launch here on Vancouver Island, and I'm actually organizing a little book tour. Yeah, across the province here. So yeah, that's stay tuned. It'll be next month. I think so. Michael Hingson  53:01 Have you had any kind of book tours, or what kind of publicity Have you had so far for the book? Kassandra Hamilton  53:06 So I was working with a publicist, which was very new to me, and I was able to connect with some press. So a couple newspapers came to my book launch. There was, I think it was like 50 people that showed up, and the mayor came to give a speech, and he wants to meet with me for lunch next week and talk more about what I could do with the book, which is great, because I really think I can use it as a tool for helping in my own community and maybe even offering organizations some opportunities to explore strategies to get their their employees out of burnout. Yeah? So that's kind of what's happened so far, and a lot of bookstores have taken it up. So I've got all the local bookstores here. Have it. It's not available on Amazon, yeah, and it's actually a bestseller. I reached bestseller status in three categories. What categories, personal development, personal growth, and I think anxiety was the third one I have to look back at it. Michael Hingson  54:14 Well, definitely congratulations are in order for doing that. Though. Thank you. Thank you. So that's that is definitely kind of cool to to have that kind of situation and that kind of status happening with the book. It makes it very exciting and certainly gratifying in so many ways. When did you start coaching? Did you when did you actually start your company? Kassandra Hamilton  54:37 So I started coaching. Let's see two, two, no, a year and a half ago. So honestly, formally, not that long, but it's already just something I'm so passionate about and getting more and more positive feedback on. So yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things, I'm just getting started. Michael Hingson  54:59 Well, that's fair. That's fine. Yeah, we, we think you're going to go far at least. I think you're going to go quite a, quite a distance with all of this. Do you just coach people directly, one on one? Do you do virtual coaching? Do you coach outside of British Columbia and all that? Kassandra Hamilton  55:18 Yeah, you know, I mostly work virtually, because then I can be accessible to more people. So that's how I actually prefer to work, is virtually, but I'm open to, you know, meeting people where they're at and however they want to communicate. So I've been doing phone calls with with one person and then zoom with another, and if people do want to do in person, I'm open to it. It's just a little bit more restrictive in terms of reach. But I'm also going to be doing some wellness workshops and talks around these tools and strategies I've learned, and using my book as a tool as I go through the province next month. So it's not just going to be about the book. It's going to be presenting and giving workshops and talks around this work, and then presenting my book as a tool to use in in helping people get back to a place of alignment and energy again. Michael Hingson  56:20 Well, on your on your website, we haven't talked about that yet, but on your website, do you have any videos of talks or anything like that that you've done? Kassandra Hamilton  56:31 Not of any talks. I think my first one, to be honest with you, is, was at the book launch, but it went so well that I'm just sort of, I'm I'm adding fuel to that fire, you know, and I'm just gonna keep going, yeah. So I haven't done any talks beyond that one yet, but I have some testimonials and things on my website. So those are the videos that are there. Michael Hingson  56:55 Well, for people who are listening to this today, who feel like they want to do. So, how can they reach out to you and connect with you, and what? What happens? Kassandra Hamilton  57:05 Yeah, so the best way is to reach out to me through my website or my I have a link tree link that I think I might have sent you, Michael, but it has all my different links for working on with coaching or reaching out in different ways and contact information. So link tree, Instagram are my main ones, but also obviously email and my website. So what is your website? It's www, dot Kassandra with a K Hamilton, which is my last name.com, Michael Hingson  57:40 so that's easy. Www, dot Kassandra Hamilton com, Kassandra Hamilton  57:44 yeah, and on Instagram, it's at Kassandra with a K underscore Hamilton, so Michael Hingson  57:50 Okay, yeah, have you? Have you done much with LinkedIn? Kassandra Hamilton  57:55 I have, yeah, I also have LinkedIn, yep. And I have Tiktok, and I have Facebook, Michael Hingson  58:00 all the things, all the different suspects, all the usual suspects, yes, yeah. Well, that is, you know, that is really pretty cool. I hope that people will reach out, because you've off, you've clearly offered a lot of very useful and relevant information. And I think that it's extremely important that people take it to heart, and I hope that maybe we're going to be able to have contributed to your getting some more people in the business too. Kassandra Hamilton  58:30 I really appreciate that, Michael and I know you've done so much work with people as well, and inspired others, you know, astronomically. So I really appreciate and feel grateful for the time that you've given me today. Michael Hingson  58:46 Well, this has been a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again. You'll have to come on and some point in the future and let us know how things are going and how the book is doing, and how everything else is happening. But I, but I really do value the fact that you've spent so much time with us today. Kassandra Hamilton  59:03 Thank you so much. At least we're in the Michael Hingson  59:06 same time zone. That helps. Yes, that's true. Well, Kassandra, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you out there for listening to us and being with us and watching us, whichever you do. I'd love to hear from you as well. I'd like to get your thoughts and your opinions. Please reach out to me. At Michael H i, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, I'd like to get your thoughts. Like to know what you thought of today's episode, wherever you are experiencing the podcast, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews highly, and we would really appreciate you giving us reviews of this episode and the podcast in general, and for anyone out there, including you, Kassandra, who might know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable. Mindset and tell their own story. Please reach out. Let

BROOKE SUMMERHILL has written a new book to address "Divorce and the Wealthy Woman." https://youtu.be/FFSeBg3XT8M In this conversation, Brooke discusses the complexities of divorce, particularly focusing on the financial aspects that wealthy women face. She emphasizes the importance of understanding one's balance sheet, hiring the right professionals, and navigating complex assets during divorce. The discussion also covers the emotional components of divorce, the significance of having a supportive team, and the benefits of open conversations about finances, including the role of prenups. Takeaways from "DIVORCE FOR THE WEALTHY WOMAN" Divorce can be a daunting process, especially regarding finances. Understanding your balance sheet is crucial during divorce. Breathing and staying calm can help alleviate anxiety. Hiring the right professionals is essential for navigating divorce. Complex assets require specialized knowledge and support. Cash flow planning is vital for post-divorce stability. Parenting during divorce needs careful planning and support. Open conversations about finances can strengthen relationships. Prenups can facilitate healthy discussions about money. Divorce is a journey that can become easier with the right support. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Divorce and Finances 02:58 Understanding the Balance Sheet 05:45 Navigating Complex Assets in Divorce 09:05 Building Your Professional Team 12:04 The Emotional Component of Divorce 15:09 Modeling Settlements and Cash Flow Planning 17:56 Parenting and Financial Responsibilities 20:41 Preventative Measures and Financial Awareness 23:53 The Role of Prenups in Marriage and Divorce Transcript of "DIVORCE FOR THE WEALTHY WOMAN" Frazer Rice (00:01.186) Welcome back, Brooke.Brooke Summerhill (00:03.378) Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Let's chat about the most fun topics in the world. Divorce and finances, right?Frazer Rice (00:09.952)Well, and codified in your new book, Divorce for the Wealthy Woman. I have already started, and I think it's a winner for a bunch of reasons. The big one really is addressing a viewpoint that I think has been missed by the financial books generally speaking,Brooke Summerhill (00:15.794)Mm-hmm. Frazer Rice (00:31.086)It really corrects a problem, I think, around information asymmetry in finances generally. And unfortunately, we've both been around it from a divorce perspective. Tell me what, first of all, let's let our listeners remind themselves of your practice. And what do you do there? And then what was the book trying to accomplish? https://www.amazon.com/Divorce-Wealthy-Women-costs-that-ebook/dp/B0G1ZMFVCN/ Brooke Summerhill (00:53.554)Okay, so hi, I'm Brooke Summerhill. I do specifically for the last like 15 years in finance. Specifcially in the last five specifically in divorce and finance for wealthy women. So I'm not very creative my book specifically and my podcast is literally called divorce for the wealthy woman. I love being able to understand the perspective of someone going through divorce,not feeling the fire, and creating a years long fight. I help alleviate the stress of divorce and go through the finances, the emotional aspect, I'm in financial psychology. I've been doing that and I plan on continuing doing that. It's a fun, fun, fun career path for me.Frazer Rice (01:40.526)One of the great things I think about your book is it starts where I start. You really have to be comfortable with what your balance sheet looks like. Take us through a little bit about your experience in helping wealthy women get acquainted with something they weren't familiar with initially. However, they have to get familiar with it real fast.Brooke Summerhill (02:03.014)So typically, you go to a lawyer . You're about to get divorced and it was blindsided in your face. my god, what is going on? He wants to get divorced or she wants to get divorced. Doesn't matter who you are, heterosexual couple or not. It does not matter. You might not know where the finances are, right? And you're going to a lawyer. You expect them to help you out, but you don't even know where the assets are. You don't know it's on the balance sheet. So the first step is breathing.Let's not get into this sympathetic nervous system. No fight or flight, freeze, thaw, and let's not go there if we can't avoid it. And really just breathe and understand it's going to be OK. That's the first thing I want to just point out is you can do the work on yourself without having to do hard interval training. You can just breathe. So you're going to breathe and understand, OK, the balance sheet. I can figure this out. You got it. And you might need to hire someone like myself who's a certified divorce financial analyst, you might have your lawyer help you. You might ask your soon to be ex if they're willing and amicable to understand the balance sheet. You might go to a financial advisor, wealth manager, your family office and ask some questions. So this is a time of learning and it's okay that you don't know where everything is. And the balance sheet is terrifying for most people. 98 % of us have money anxiety. It's okay. Breathe.Get help and support where you can. The foundation is the balance sheet. If this is the only thing you take from today, is just breathe and know that the foundation is your budget, your expenses, what's coming in, what's going out. Can you figure that out? Even though you might not know where your assets are. Do you have Bitcoin? Or have different properties? Do you even know if there's liens, mortgages, loans on them? That all will get figured out. But you've got to know what you're spending.I would say, you tell me if you have a different experience. But most clients do not know their budget. And that's OK. Doesn't matter your wealth, income, anything. Most people, at least in America, do not know what they spend every month. So that's the foundation is to start theirs. Understand, what are you spending? Just keep a little log. It can be old fashioned. And I have plenty of technological apps that can help with this. But keep it old fashioned. Just write down, what are you spending? And keep that for a week.Brooke Summerhill (04:28.752)That can help you in your divorce process and remember to breathe. There you go.Frazer Rice (04:32.91)And it's part of my process, I think, is to just understand what you're spending. And then the next step is really understand where it comes from to help support that spending. It's like analyzing someone who earned 100 million dollars from this movie. It's like, OK, that's the headline. Now it's a lot different in reality. Certainly taxes, how it's paid to you.We'll get into this in a second, and sometimes it's not in cash. Sometimes it's in different types of assets. Whether it's stock or maybe you own homes, and it may not be necessarily liquid right up front. It sounds like we're parking our cars in the same garage on that front.Brooke Summerhill (05:19.154)Absolutely, absolutely agree with you.Frazer Rice (05:22.114)So maybe let's go through some of the complex assets that you think about that come up in any, not all divorce situations, but definitely in many of them. Many times people have grown their wealth through a private business. so even, you know, the number that is settled upon in the divorce settlement may not be readily available from a cash payout perspective. How do you take people through that?Brooke Summerhill (05:47.473)Oof. So I have an entire chapter on businesses because majority of my clients, I'm going to be very sexist here and say majority of my clients, husbands in a heterosexual relationship do own a business or have just been bought out of a business or are starting a startup or have something behind the scenes that they're aware of or maybe not even aware of. So businesses are huge thing. That's why I put a chunk of it in my book becauseThe biggest advice I can give is hire, I'm going to be a repetitive throughout this whole podcast today is hire the right professionals if you can, because you don't know what you don't know and that's okay. You're going to breathe through that and acknowledge you don't have to be an expert in divorce. But when you have a business reading, listening to podcasts, doing all of those exercises are wonderful and hiring an expert. So getting someone who's understanding the finances in a divorce specifically, so business valuator, or just having a consultation. That's enough to understand, this, I need a forensic accountant, because I don't know anything that's going on within this part of the businesses that I'm a part of, but I'm not really a part of, or I need a business valuator. Let's just have a consultation. It could be really a non serious, non threatening, non emotional way to start it.I'm just going to have a consultation to understand, do I need this business valuator? I would just at least have those conversations to understand more about your husband's business or your business in general on what are the numbers behind it? Because it is very complex, just as you're saying. Businesses, absolutely, you want the right experts involved.Frazer Rice (07:30.506)And sort of as a broader business, or not really business, but sort of as a broader sort of contextual situation here, the type of wealth, whether it's private funds, people who are invested in private equity or hedge funds or stock options or RSUs for people who are in the tech world, things that are held in trust, there's the concept of carried interest and real estate and concentrated stock.This is to go back to your comment that there are people out there that can help you. Understand those assets, I guess for lack of better word, can and can't do. As far as either provide cash flow or are easily divisible in a divorce settlement.

Adam welcomes back Glizzy and her cousin, first time guest, Lisa! We dive right in with Adam & Lisa talking about being the youngest sibling and also teacher's kids. We get into Lisa's love of NKOTB and a boy band discussion. In the meat, Mm!, it's all about being a 90's girl! From all the teen magazines and trends, to heart throbs to our Mt Rushmore of celeb crushes growing up. We end the show with a kick-off to Christmas! Remembering the Christmas meals growing up, dressing up and making movies with cousins and what present we wanted the most! Love y'all. Hut Hut

✨ 年度最大優惠｜訂閱年繳多享 2+1 個月使用權利：https://pse.is/8cq2qm 本集為十週年企劃的第四集，這次的 Podcast 系列我們希望多找更多外部的聲音，讓聽眾朋友可以了解更多專家在總經或是非總經領域的觀點。 本集邀請特別來賓，天風國際證券分析師-郭明錤來跟我們聊聊，蘋果的現況及未來發展？對 AI 泡沫的看法為何？供應鏈移轉東南亞有受到親睞嗎？中美科技戰的狀況如何？