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In this insightful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin their series on Jesus's parables by examining the Parable of the Sower (or Soils). This foundational teaching from Christ reveals why some hearts receive the gospel message while others reject it. The hosts unpack the four soil types Jesus describes, exploring what each represents spiritually and how these patterns continue to manifest today. They emphasize that while the parable reveals different responses to the gospel, it also provides comfort for believers engaged in evangelism, reminding us that outcomes ultimately depend not on the sower's skill but on the condition of the soil—a condition that only God can prepare. This episode offers both theological depth and practical encouragement for Christians seeking to understand the various responses to the gospel message in their own ministry contexts. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Sower serves as a hermeneutical key for understanding all of Jesus's parables, as it directly addresses why Jesus taught in parables and provides the interpretive framework for understanding their purpose. The parable reveals four types of responses to the gospel (represented by the four soils), but only one that leads to genuine salvation and fruit-bearing. The focus of the parable is not on the sower's skill or the seed's quality but on the condition of the soil—emphasizing God's sovereignty in salvation while encouraging continued evangelism. The "rocky ground" hearers represent those who initially receive the gospel with joy but have no root system to sustain them when trials come, often resulting in what we might call "deconstruction" today. Christians should expect varied responses to gospel proclamation and not be discouraged when the seed appears to be wasted on unresponsive hearts, as this pattern was predicted by Jesus himself. The parable provides a warning against shallow faith while encouraging believers to develop deep spiritual roots that can withstand persecution and trials. Genuine conversion is ultimately evidenced by fruit-bearing, not merely by initial enthusiasm or religious affiliation. Understanding the Soils The Parable of the Sower presents four distinct soil types, each representing different responses to the gospel message. The first soil—the path—represents hearts where the gospel makes no impact whatsoever; the seed simply bounces off and is quickly snatched away by Satan. This illustrates not merely outward rejection of the gospel, but also intellectual non-comprehension. As Tony explains, this doesn't necessarily mean active hostility toward the gospel but could simply be indifference: "It may not be someone who has like a closed fist, 'I hate the gospel, I hate everything about God,' but for some reason they're just not [interested]." This parallels Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him." The rocky soil represents those who initially receive the gospel with enthusiasm but lack depth. Their faith appears genuine at first but quickly withers under pressure or persecution. This phenomenon is particularly evident in what we often call "deconstruction" today—where someone who appeared genuinely converted falls away when their faith is tested. As Jesse notes, "I think what I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind...what's the length of time here? Is it possible that somebody could be in this place...which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end?" The parable reminds us that immediate joy at receiving the gospel is not necessarily evidence of saving faith, and it calls us to examine whether our own faith has sufficient depth to withstand trials. The Comfort of Realistic Expectations One of the most encouraging aspects of this parable is how it calibrates our expectations about evangelism and gospel ministry. Jesus teaches that when the gospel is proclaimed, we should expect varied responses—including outright rejection—not because of any failure in the message or messenger, but because of the condition of human hearts. This provides tremendous comfort for believers engaged in evangelistic efforts who might otherwise be discouraged by apparent failure. Tony highlights this point: "This parable is not about the skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed...The point of the parable...is that it has to do with the soil itself." This understanding frees us from the pressure of thinking we must somehow perfect our evangelistic technique or presentation, while also removing the false guilt that can come when people reject the message we share. Furthermore, the parable encourages continued, generous sowing of the gospel seed. As Tony observes, "We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this seed everywhere that he can." This reminds us that our responsibility is faithful proclamation, while the results remain in God's sovereign hands. Memorable Quotes "The Parable of the Sower teaches really that the gospel call goes out to all... but only those who God regenerates, that good soil, are gonna receive it savingly and will bear fruit." - Jesse Schwamb "Just because our experience of Christianity and our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that it felt real and genuine and rooted for [those who later fell away]... There's a caution there for us." - Tony Arsenal "The exhortation built into this is that we need to seek that root. We don't get to determine what kind of soil we are on an ultimate level—that's God's election and his secret providence. But on a horizontal level, in our experience of things, we have agency, we make decisions. We seek to be rooted or unrooted in the gospel." - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:36] Introduction and Greetings Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 462 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I am Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast of Good Soil. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Well, will you look at us? Look at us. It's finally and officially begun. And that is this conversation. [00:01:00] Kickoff to the Parable Series Jesse Schwamb: This episode is really the kickoff, well, the first parable that we're going through together, starting a long conversation that I think is gonna bear much fruit, if you will. Yes. Maybe 30, maybe 60, maybe a hundred times. Lord willing. It's gonna be great. And we're starting off with a doozy. Yes. Actually, maybe this is like the granddaddy of all the parables because we're gonna hear Jesus tell us something about the word of God and how it's received among different hearers. And this is so fantastic. It's the only place to begin because this is truly some eternally contemporary words. Yeah, it's, this is the parable that's continually verified under our own eyes. Wherever the word of God is preached or expounded and people are assembled to hear it, the sayings of our Lord in this parable are found to be true. It describes what goes on as a general rule in our congregations in the world. Anytime the word of God goes out, what a place to begin. So we're gonna get there. It's gonna be great, don't you worry, dear listener. [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: But of course, before we do that, it's our tradition, our word that's spoken is always something in affirmation with something or in denial against something. So I say to you, as I always do, Tony. What do you have for us on this episode? Uh, an affirmation or denial. Tony Arsenal: This is an affirmation. I'll try to keep it nice and short and tight. Uh, I am affirming everything that comes with the fall. It's the air's getting crisp. The season, the, the pumpkin. Yeah. Not, not the fall. With the, let's, let's, let's clarify. I'm affirming everything that comes with autumn. So, uh, the air's crisp, the pumpkin spice is flowing, the leaves are starting to come down. Although, as a New Englander, I feel like I might be a little disappointed this year they're saying that it might not be as vibrant because we've been under a bit of a drought. But, uh, I, I'm all for all of it. Sweaters, gimme like a nice cozy scarf to put on and like a, I don't know, like a stocking cap. Gimme some flannel. I'm just ready to rock and roll. I'm, I'm, I'm done with summer and I'm ready for fall and yeah, that's, that's the whole thing. That's the affirmation. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:03:09] Autumnal Delights and Debates Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. It's speaking of like eternally or seasonally contemporary. That is so good. Plus I would say like the fall or autumn. The best adjectives, doesn't it? Yes. Like including like the word ottum. Yes. Like, that's just a great word that we, we do not use enough of. So this season, loved ones dropping a tum in there because Yes. It's just such a good word. Tony Arsenal: And I, I know people hate on the pumpkin spice and uh, there was a rev, I think I've said this before, it's re revolutionized my understanding because I used to get so mad because I was like, this doesn't even taste like pumpkin. It's not pumpkin flavored items, it's pumpkin spiced. Flavored items. So it's the, the spice you would use in pumpkin pie is the spice that they're talking about. So people complain that you're just putting nutmeg in things. And to that, I say yes, that's the point. You just start adding nutmeg or pumpkin spice or cloves or all spice or whatever it might be. The point is we're using the same spices that you would use for making a pumpkin pie or some other sort of fall. Delicious fall. Pumpy squashy, goodness. Jesse Schwamb: You got that right. This is a classic case of don't hate the player. Hate the game. Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. And if you don't like it, if you don't like pumpkin spice, then just don't talk to me at all. I'm just kidding. Still get pumpkin spice. Like you can go to Starbucks and get the same, same coffee you always get. You don't have to get pumpkin spice, you don't have to drink pumpkin beer, you don't have to do any of that. The all the stuff is, all the normal stuff is still available. They don't tell you you can't have it. Nobody is opening your mouth and pouring it down your throat. So just calm down, order your normal drip coffee and move on with your life. Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of polarizing autumnal type things, I don't know if we've talked about probably, we have talked about this and I've just forgotten. Where do you land on the whole. Cotton, uh, sorry. Candy corn, not cotton candy, but candy corn. Tony Arsenal: I, I feel like we have talked about this and my perspectives may have changed over the years. I'm not a big fan of candy corn, but I will eat it until I vomit. If you put it in front, I think is the, is the consensus that if there's a bowl of it in front of me, the first thing that I will do is I will break off two little white tips of the ca uh, candy corn and stick them on my fangs and pretend to be vampire. Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. Tony Arsenal: And then I will eat the remainder of the pound and a half of candy that's in front of me until I throw up. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I know there's some difference between like candy, corn and like the little pumpkin confectionary ones. Yeah. Some people prefer those over others. And then this is not even to talk about the whole debate between when it comes to Reese's Peanut butter cups and Oh yeah. The pumpkin variety of those and No, all that stuff. Tony Arsenal: No. Mm. Jesse Schwamb: No. To those? Tony Arsenal: No, to those. The, the shaped, the shaped, uh, Reese's Peanut butter objects, I suppose they're not cups at that point. Uh, they use a different kind of peanut butter. I dunno if you know that, but they use a different peanut butter. So they, they actually do taste different than the actual didn't know that says peanut butter cups. Um, it's either a different kind of peanut butter or a different kind of chocolate. But one of the primary substances, uh, not in the Aristotelian sense, uh, one of the primary substances is different. And so it does actually taste different. It's not as good. And then the balance between the chocolate and the peanut butter is off. It's, it's not good. I'm a, I'm a peanut butter cup. Uh, I like to say aficionado, but I think probably snob would be a better. A better term for it. Jesse Schwamb: Listen, you'll, you like what you like by the way, only on this podcast, only, I think among long-term listeners, would it be necessary to clarify that you do not mean substance in there was six alien sense. Tony Arsenal: That's true. That's, that's definitely true. Well, Jesse, that is where we are. Enough about my, uh, fall. Uh, food preferences. What are you affirming and or denying? Tonight, [00:07:02] Musical Recommendations Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna also come along with you on it with the affirmation, and maybe while you're drinking that PSL or you're searching for that candy, corn, you might like, want something to put into your ears that isn't us, that's a little bit more melodic. And so I'm affirming with the, this time and age in which it is all about curation. That's often a lovely thing. I use Spotify for all of my music consumption, and they just fed me like a really interesting playlist that I would never have thought of as a category, but I've really been enjoying, it's called Math Rock. And I saw, and I thought I'm, I'm usually kinda like dubious of the Spotify playlist because like they're kind of out there for me generally. But I thought to myself, well, this is an interesting port man too. Like, I like math. I like rock, and the description was complex rhythms and mesmerizing loops. So I thought, I like complex rhythms. I like loops that continue and mesmerize, so the check it out for yourself. If you're looking for something that's like, it's enough to be interesting while you're working on something, but not too interesting. So that distracts you. This is apparently the jam. So yeah, it's like just really interesting rock oriented, mostly instrumental music that is like. Really motivating, but again, not interesting enough to really distract you from the task at hand if that's not your thing. The other thing I would recommend, I know you'll join me in this, Tony, is that poor Bishop Hooper released a new album this week. It's called The Serpent and the Seed, and this one has a ton of tracks on it, like 18 or so, and it, it as well is a unique mix of both instrumental, really lovely, beautiful pieces and then some that carry more vocal and melodic stuff that's kind of their customary jam. Both of 'em are great. They both do have kind of an an autumnal vibe, if I'm honest. Now I'm thinking about it. It's really the perfect compliment to whatever it is that you're consuming that has that pumpkin spice in it. So math, rock, the serpent and the seed. There you go. Tony Arsenal: I'm trying to synthesize. I mean, math and rock are like two of Jesse's favorite things. So I'm trying to synthesize what it would be like to scream the quadratic equation at someone with some sort of like slightly off cadence, dissonant guitar rift underneath. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Tony Arsenal: I feel like there's a Me Without You album out there somewhere that that's exactly what it is. But Jesse Schwamb: yeah, probably there should Tony Arsenal: be at least. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there, there absolutely should be. And I'm with you. I'm willing to work on that album. That's a great idea. Like just, it's just an album of mathematical equations and like the deep mysteries of life, you know, listen, math is beautiful. Numbers are stories. There's, there's so much there. Yeah. You had me at Quadratic, so I, I think we've, we've given people a lot to enjoy in this fall season. It's true. Tony Arsenal: I, I. I couldn't solve a quadratic equation to save my entire life at this point. Uh, I took introduction to logic when I got to college 'cause I couldn't remember how to multiply fractions on the entrance exam. That's fair. So that's fair. So that was, that's my experience with math. But right Jesse Schwamb: now the internet wants to keep serving me videos about, you've seen like all these tests, like these entrance exams for like Harvard or like the Ivy Leagues, other Ivy Leagues, and it is all these random things, you know, like we're solving for like two variables, terminally, and there is some kinda like expon explanation to it. Um. Yeah, I guess that's what I've become and I watch 'em all. They honestly get me every time. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not gonna watch that. And then I'm like, oh, I'm definitely gonna watch that. So it just happens. It's great. Tony Arsenal: I love it. Meanwhile, meanwhile, YouTube is desperately trying to get me to watch Season six and Cobra High. And it's very quickly gonna be succeeding. I think the next time Netflix has a, has a promotion where I can get a cheap month or something like that, I will definitely be binging Cobra Kai. So I feel like our YouTube algorithms are very different. Jesse Schwamb: Very different. Yeah. Very different. Certainly in, um, there is a commonality of, of the mysteries of the world and. [00:11:06] Introduction to the Parable of the Sower Jesse Schwamb: In some way, that's what we're talking about in this entire series. And yeah, if for some reason you didn't hear a conversation from two weeks ago where we really set the table, I think for what a parable is, why Jesus uses parables. As far as I remember, you correct if I'm wrong, it was the definitive conversation about why the parable is not just peace wise in Jesus' teaching, but really why it's the centerpiece. Yeah, we talked about that at great length. So now we're really ready to go. If you didn't hear that, I highly recommend you go back and hear that. 'cause there's so much. I realize as we, we looked at this parable of the sower or better like the parable of the soils, that we could do a whole series on just this bad boy. Such not just like wide interpretation, but wide application. So much for us to really chew on and then to really come back to and chew the could. So we're gonna have to be probably every time a little bit self-editing and brief. So if you're just yelling at your device, why aren't you talking about this thing? There's a great place for you to yell into or maybe just calmly and very politely suggest rather than the void, you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just an app for, it's kind of a conversational tool and platform, and if you're looking for it and I know that you are, don't, why would you even fool yourself? It's, you can find it by going to T Me Reform Brotherhood. There's a whole channel, there's a bunch of channels there, a bunch of little conversations that we have compartmentalize. There's one just to talk about the episode. So as we go through this, my encouragement to everybody is track with us, get your scriptures out. Come along with us in the actual journey of processing this. Do spend some time processing it with us. And then when there is inevitably that thing, they're like, why didn't you talk about this? You know, a great place to converse with others and us about that would be in the Telegram Chat. So T Me Reform Brotherhood. So enough of that, let's get to it. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's, there's some, um, there's some logic that would say we should have just rather than doing an Introduction to Parables episode, we should have just done the parable, because this parable does really follow, it really does form like an introduction to all of Christ's parabolic teachings. And, you know, it's, no, it's no, um, mystery either in God's providence or just in Matthew as being a, a, you know, somewhat genius level composer of, of a work of literature in putting this parable first, because you're absolutely right at the top of the show that this parable really is. Almost like the hermeneutical key for all of the parables. Not just for in terms of like understanding the parables, it doesn't do that so much. But in understanding the purpose of the parables and more importantly, explicitly in the middle of this, Christ explains why he teaches in parables. So we covered that a lot last time, so we're not gonna, we're gonna skip over that middle section 'cause we don't need to rehash that. But this really is the granddaddy of all the parables. It it is, um. It is Christ's teaching on why he uses parables in action. It's the application of his own theology, of parables, if you want to call it that. Uh, in principle. And he is gracious enough that in this very first parable, he actually gives us the interpretation, right, which is, is not entirely unique, um, in, in the gospels, but it is not always the norm. There are a fair number of parables where Christ just drops the parable and leaves it there, um, for both his immediate listeners to figure out and then also for us to figure out. We're not given the inspired interpretation, but this one we are given the inspired interpretation. And Jesse, I had to laugh because, um. Just as you get really, really upset and worked, worked up about when people say Christ's body broken for you. Uh, it just drives me nuts when people call this the parable of the soils. 'cause Christ gives it a name, right? So, so we'll talk about that too. And I, I'm, I'm mostly playing, like, I'm not gonna jump through the screen at you or anything like that, but that's the, one of the other unique features of this parable is that it's given it's, it's given a name. Um, and that's part of the interpretation is that in most cases, parables have a primary figure or a primary point that's being made. And if you get that primary point wrong or that primary figure wrong, um, you tend to get the rest of the parable wrong. In this case, Christ graciously tells us who the parable is about or what the parable is about, and then later on when we get to the, the next parable or a couple parables down, um, he actually tells us more about the parable through some other teaching as well. [00:15:38] Reading and Analyzing the Parable Tony Arsenal: So, Jesse, do you have that text in front of us? Do you wanna go ahead and read that first chunk? That's the parable itself. Jesse Schwamb: I do, let's do it by the way. Uh, maybe somebody should keep track. Here's a fun little game of how many times we say parable or parabolic. And of course, whenever I hear parabolic, I always think, of course there is like something of great hyperbole or allegory, but I often think of, uh, parabola, which to your point, Tony, I think you're just doing this for my sake now, and I love, this is an exponent oriented equation. Of course, it's a like a canonical section, which can only be creative mathematically by pronunciation again. So thank you for that. I thought you just did that for me, so Tony Arsenal: I have no idea what you just said. You might as well have been speaking like Hindu. Jesse Schwamb: It's fantastic. Well, let's, let's get to the actual, the best word, the word of life. And this is from Matthew chapter 13. Beginning just at the start of the chapter. That same day, Jesus went out of his, uh, house and sat beside the sea and, and great crowds gathered about him so that he got into a boat and sat down and the whole crowd stood on the beach. And he told them many things in parables saying. A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprung up since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched. And since they had no roots, they were it away. Other seeds fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain. Some a hundred fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears, let him hear. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So on a surface level here, the, the parable is straightforward, right? We have a very straightforward picture, which is, is common for most of the parables, that it's not some sort of unusual, crazy out there situation that's being described. It's a common scenario from everyday life, uh, that doesn't tend to have sort of like. Mythological legendary kinds of characteristics. We have a simple farmer who is out sowing his seeds. Um, some of the commentaries we'll point out, and I don't, I dunno how accurate this is or isn't, but I, I saw it in, in a couple different commentaries. So I'm inclined to, to believe it that our model of farming, uh, in sort of a western world or, or maybe not western world, but in a more, I dunno, technologically advanced world, is to teal the ground till the ground first, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: And then to scatter seed. And it was much more common in the ancient world to actually scatter the seed kind of, uh, promiscuously and then till the ground. Um, I don't know the reasons for that. I'm not a horticulturist, but, um. The, the, one of the critiques that I've heard, and it's funny when people try to critique Jesus is 'cause they're always proven wrong, but one of the critiques I've heard is like, no farmer whatever would ever do this. Like, no, no sower would ever just throw seed on the ground, but this actually is the way they would've done farming. So he's, he's taking an everyday scenario that everyone would've been familiar with. Right. Nobody would've been like, oh yeah, that doesn't make any sense. They would've just said, oh yeah, of course you just throw the seed on the ground and then you come back around later and you do what you need to do. So it, it was really a scenario where some of the seed would've fallen on the path. And we're not talking about like a road next to the farm, but a lot of times the, the field had sort of, um. They're probably called like convenience trails is what they're called now. But people would travel through the, through the paths, and so there would be an area that's already walked, walked on that's a little bit easier to traverse. And eventually that area would turn into a pathway. So it was, it was kind of turned into sort of like hard clay turf that you couldn't get the seed into anyways. And then there would've been areas where, um, there was rocks under the surface. Most of our fields that our farm fields have been tilled and prepared and have been worked over, that the stones had been removed. But it wasn't always like that in the ancient world. And then you would've had areas where there was, uh, there was other vegetation, thorns, weeds, other kinds of plants that would've made, made it difficult for the crop to sprout and to bear fruit. So we have a very common scenario. There's nothing surprising about this. There's nothing out of the ordinary. It's just a simple farming metaphor that Christ employs here. Jesse Schwamb: And in some ways that's very consistent of course, because we have these very ordinary, normal things that God is using as a means of explanation for something that is very extraordinary, very supernatural. So we have the natural coming into play, not just as a representation, but to really demonstrates, illustrates and impound both in structure and form. This idea of what it means for the gospel to be communicated. And I'm with you, my understanding is in most ancient world. Those, those fields, we tend to think of them as fields and often the reference that way were like more like these narrow strips of land separated by these paths and you have this farmer casting the seed like very liberally. And not only that, but I think what's interesting right on the face. Is we see that there are basically four potential outcomes here and only one of those outcomes, 'cause we're already understanding this to mean the sowing of the sea, which is the word of life, which is the gospel message. Only one of those outcomes results in kingdom growth. There's a ratio of three to one. There's three times as many poor outcomes. In other words, there's all of these various ways in which we find that the seed is not rejected or does not result in the intended fruit. But there is just one path, one narrow kind of way in which it does result, and then it results in kind of various outcomes in terms of like the magnitude of the fruit or the plants that result from this planting. But as a result of that. I think what's really interesting to me right on the face is that we're seeing, like you said, there is a sower. He's casting the seed deliberately, he's coming on the path and he's just throwing it out. And in that narrow strip of land, there are all these different soils. And so right away we see if you're, if you're a farmer, you're understanding something about, it's not about the skill of the farmer in the casting of the seed. It's not even about the, the skill of the seed to grow. It's about the soil itself. And so again, we have this as three times as many potentially poor outcomes as there are for the one that results in this grand harvest. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And the one thing about this that might be, might have been, and, and again, some of the commentators are, are split on this, but might have been a sort of unexpected, um, element. And, and this is something we do see with, uh, with the parables, is there's usually some sort of, um. Unexpected or dramatic or turn of events kind of element, usually towards the end of a parable that would make, would, should be a subversion of expectations. Right? Right. And so the, in this instance, um, a yield of 30 times or, or 60 times or a hundred times, all of those yields would be crazy high yields. Um, you know, I, I, I think there are some plants, some of the commentators will make, make a point that there are some plants where like a 30. A 30 yield is normal. Um, but a 30 or a 60 or a hundred times yield of a crop is, is not the expectation. And so I think in, in a scenario like this, the reader or the listener is prepped by the fact that there are three, uh, negative outcomes and only one favorable outcome. To assume that the crop yield is not going to be great. Right? And then the reality is the crops that do sprout the crops that land on the good soil or the seed that lands on the good soil. Not only is it productive, it's so productive that it actually outpaces and kind of compensates for the lack of productivity or the lack of fruitfulness of the other three. So it's, it's three different, uh, it's four possible outcomes and then three levels of fruitfulness. And so this parable does sort of cause the listener or the hearer to think about, um, and start, you know, from the very outset, think about what does, what does it mean that the seed landed on the path and was stolen away by the birds? What does it mean that it sprouted quickly and uh, but didn't have roots and so it withered away in the sun? And what does it mean that, you know, it sprouted among thorns and so it couldn't bear fruit. And then I think the implied, um, the implied question that's being forced here because the parable does start out, you know, saying there was the sower, the sower, um. Sowed this seed out. He doesn't introduce this the same way he normally, he normally does or commonly does, right? Jesus often will start the peril ball by saying something like, the kingdom of God is like, right? Or you know this. This is like that. This, he just starts out saying like, a sower was out in the, in the field sowing seed. So the, the listener is not primed to know what the comparison is necessarily, but I think part of that is that now they're forced to ask what is the comparison? And I don't think it's much of a stretch. And again, this is why parables are so kind of paradoxical is it's not a difficult, when we get to the interpretation, it's not difficult to see the interpretation. Right, right. It's, it's easy to understand that the parable here, the metaphor is, is different reactions of, of some sort to. To a given thing, right? It's, it's different reactions to an investment of some sort. There's an investment of seed and in some instances it just doesn't take, in other instances, it takes and it doesn't sprout, and in other instances it sprouts, but it never fruits. So when we get to the interpretation, Jesus is gonna give us the clarity of what that investment is, and then who are, or what are the outcomes and what do they mean? In, in our, you know, in our thought process of what the kingdom of God is like. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so let's do it then. [00:25:44] Understanding the Soils Jesse Schwamb: 'cause what we've got here is we basically have, each soil is representing some type of here. So we've got four heres but only one true believer. So it's probably behooves us to go through all of them and really kind of chat through. And maybe what we can do is try to bring some of our own practical application to each of these. I've been really meditating and pondering that, trying to think if this is practical for us, then how can we understand how each of these are being manifest all around us? And of course the intention here is not to like name people that we think fall into each of these four little groups, but more so to think about how we might understand people who do fall into each of these groups. And that is to say that. Each one of these, well, the, the first three rather, that these ones in which they're, the soil is in some degree suboptimal. I, I don't know that it means that it's always that way, for instance. So we might think of people that fall into those categories, but the Lord may be moving or working in them to move them into that fourth category. And of course, he's done that with ourselves, so we know that that's exactly how he operates. Um, and it's, I think it's good for us to remember that. I think there's a lot that's scary about this first soil, this idea that. The seed just bounces. So we get no uptake whatsoever in this one. But the other ones, at least you get a little satisfaction that there's some kind of reception. There is a receipt of that word. And the reason why I find this one to be so troubling is because these who hear it in the first case, they don't understand and they don't esteem it. And Christ is very clear to say that the seed itself doesn't sit there long. It bounces. So there's a, there is a literal hardness. That's reflected in that clay soil or that path, which is down trotted. And it's hard because of perhaps this constant lack of belief, this constant and unrepentant hearts or lifestyle, but it would be enough if it just kinda bounced off and sat there. But the fact that it's snatched away that the birds come and take it away, that Satan himself has an active and powerful role in influencing all of those who are hearing this word. And I think that hardness of heart may not just be manifest in, say, like an unrepentant lifestyle or this kind of clench fist against God on the inside, which is of course true of the natural man. But more than that, that anything that would take us away from true belief. So that is even any kind of our religious system or belief, any kind of philosophy, any kind of other worldview I think is in mind here because we know the devil comes to kill, steal, and destroy. And so. What he's doing in that sometimes happens first and foremost in the mind, manifested in the heart and then in our behaviors. So if he's stealing away this word by replacing it with something that is false, that is not true, that destroys, that pulls us away and moves us away, then this is very scary. He has a real power, which we talked about. I don't know, like maybe six or so episodes ago. It's worth listening to, I think. And so what I find here that is really traumatizing upfront is the involvement in particular of the sinful man under his own mean estate. That is, that it's clear that the natural man cannot conceive of the things of God without regeneration, and Jesus makes it abundantly clear. He's, he's basically saying what Paul says later on in First Corinthians when he writes, the natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God, does not accept them. So again, there's no agreement. There's no, even an intellectual ascent does not accept the things of the spirit of God for they are folly to him and he's not able to understand them because they're spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one for who is understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him. But we have the mind of Christ, so there is no mind of Christ, which is, it's a horrible way to live life. And so in that space we have both the natural man, his total depravity, unable to pull himself up by his theological bootstraps or philosophical bootstraps or his intellectual emotional bootstraps to even discern what the way in which the world really actually is. And then in in, I say in addition to that, we have the devil himself waging war and attacking by pulling away that seed. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I have a little bit of a different take on this and I think this is what I am looking forward to in this series. Is there, there is gonna be. [00:30:01] Understanding the Parable of the Sower Tony Arsenal: Different, uh, different understandings that probably all fall and are all compatible, but all fall within a acceptable range of understanding. Here, you know, I, in, in reading some of the commentaries, Calvin makes the point that all four of these different types of seed represent people who in some sense are open to the gospel. They're, they're open to, he, he makes the point that this is not talking about the, the person who like refuses to hear the gospel at all, who like won't even come into the church. This is a person predominantly who is, is exposed to the word in some sense, probably in view as someone who's among the people of God who's in the, in the, in the physical body of the people of God who's among Christians or among those hearing the word. And for whatever reason, the, the, the seed doesn't, uh, it doesn't even get into the soil. Right, and he compares, Christ compares, um, this not to somebody who is hardhearted, but to someone who doesn't understand, right? That there's an intellectual element to this, right? You think of, um, you know, you think of somebody who hears the scripture and probably understands outwardly what it means, but doesn't ever comprehend it internally. They don't ever really, they don't ever really let it penetrate into their, into their hearts. Um, so it's been sewn into their hearts, but it doesn't actually take root in their hearts in any other sense. [00:31:38] The Role of the Soil in Receiving the Word Tony Arsenal: And this is what's a little bit different from, from the other ones that we're gonna see in all of the other cases. The seed takes root, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: It actually penetrates the ground and begins to grow. Um, it, this is a seed that never even makes it that far. And so it may not be someone who has like a, who necessarily has like a closed fist. I hate the gospel. I hate everything about God, but for some reason they're just not. And when we say for some reason I'm talking, obviously I'm talking la you know, horizontally. Um, we know that the reason that they don't have an open heart is 'cause the Holy Spirit is not open to their heart. But for whatever earthly temporal reason, the word just doesn't penetrate. It bounces off of them. It just doesn't get there. Not necessarily because they're outwardly hostile to it. They just maybe are not interested in it. And so this is where I think that. Along with the evil one, snatching it away. That's actually like one in the same thing. Is, is part of what I think this is getting at is that the, the, the only reason that the, um, that Satan can snatch away the word from their heart or what has been sewn into their heart is because their heart has not received it. And so it's that sort of dual function and, and maybe it's kind of like, almost like, uh, in Exodus, you know, God hardening the heart and then Pharaoh hardening the heart and those two things are happening, you know, by means of concurs that God is doing it in a divine sense. I almost feel like this is an instance where kind of like the, the census or, or with job where Satan is the one who is doing it, but it's ultimately attributed to God as well. It's the hardening of the heart, but it's also the hardness of heart. Um, all of those things are playing a dynamic, but ultimately the point here is that there are those who the word is preached to. [00:33:30] The Sower's Responsibility and the Soil's Condition Tony Arsenal: Um, you know, we will find out in, in a little bit later, like, the sower is Christ in, in these parables here. It's not, it's not generally the sowing of the word. It's Christ who is sowing the word. It's the son who is sowing, uh, the seed of the word. And we can think about that either during his own ministry. This certainly was, um, was true of his own ministry on Earth, that there were some who just did not receive the word and they just, it just bounced off of them. But then also as the son sows the seed through his people, down through the church age, through history, whether it's in the Lord's Day service or personal, witnessing, personal, you know, um, evangelism, it's still God who is sowing the seed. It's still the Lord who is the sower of the seed. But even in that context, there are still some who just don't receive it. So I think what you said earlier is really, is really spot on. This parable is not about. The skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed. Right. And I think sometimes people read this and they, they look at it as though it is actually the sewer's fault. What a dumb sower. He sowed it on the path. Of course it's not gonna take root. That's not the point of the parable at all. The point of the parable, and we learn it just right, this very first one, is that it has to do with the, the soil itself. Which is why, you know, I, I kind of joke about calling it the parable of the soils, and that's a fine way to refer to it. And most of these parables could have multiple different, you know, accurate titles as well. But the point of the parable, or the main point of the parable is that the soil itself is what determines the outcome. Again, you know, we, we don't need to get into all the theological details of how the soil becomes, what the soil is. This show has the word reformed in the title. You can figure out that we're gonna say, well, God is the one that prepares the soil. And that also just fits with the, with the a parable here, right? The good soil is only good because it's been tilled and prepared by the sower ahead of time, right? So I think that's, that's spot on. And, and you know, as I think about the people I know in my life, um, it's very easy to get discouraged when you try to so seed to, to follow through on the metaphor when you try to so seed and it feels like it bounces off. But we shouldn't be surprised at that. We shouldn't be surprised when someone is just not interested because Christ in his very first parable tells us there are people out there like that. That doesn't mean you don't sow the seed, it doesn't mean you don't continue to spread the seed the way that the sower does. And the reason for that is that some of it is going to take, take root, some of it is going to take root and bear fruit and you are not in charge and you don't control which one does which. We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this, so this seed everywhere that he can. [00:36:26] The Reality of Hardheartedness Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there is something there that I think is comfortable about this hardness of the soil, because I think sometimes we underestimate that the normative position of man is to be antagonistic toward God. That's not to say like we're talking about in their every action they take, they're going to refuse to hear the gospel or they're going to fight vehemently or out outwardly against it. But it's true that everywhere we find the scriptures, whether it's this other metaphor about God, again, doing this great surgery, of taking out this height of stone, which is of course hardheartedness or whether we go to like Romans three, where Paul says that there's no one who understands, there's no one who seeks God. So we understand that the default position is, one, nobody's seeking after God. Two, that God is too threatening to us. He threatens ourself. He threatens our ego, he threatens our own way. He threatens our contingency, all of which we try to fight against, like to our own dismay. And you know, basically. You know, it's willing, suspension of disbelief. But it's interesting and I think comforting here that what he's saying is, is exactly what you've just said, which is do not he, he'd almost say like loved ones. Do not be surprised when you find that people are just not that interested. They're just not into the gospel. Because your default position is to be a gospel abuser. To be a covenant breaker. And so because of that, there's just a natural hardness. And that hardness, I think he has to draw out. He has to say it's gonna bounce and Satan's gonna snatch it away because it would be, it's too easy to look at those who are just like vehemently opposed to the gospel that wanna debate. You wanna shut you down, wanna yell at you, wanna put signs in your face, wanna spit on you. That's too easy to be like, well, of course. Those people are not gonna receive it. But what about the quiet people who just don't care? Or, yeah. What about the people who are too caught up in their way of life or their simple behaviors or their patterns, or again, just what? What about those? What about the Mormons? When they come to your door and you can speak into your blue in the face about what Paul says, like the gospel plus anything is anathema, and they're just kinda like, yes. Yeah. Totally. That's fine. Totally down with that. And you're like, yeah, but you're doing, you're doing that very thing. This is great comfort to know that even those situations where you're not at war explicitly with somebody, that it's still comforting to know that this is going to happen. And also I think it's a great reminder that apart from God, apart from that changing of the soil, as you said, Tony, we would be those same people. That's in fact where we start. I, I don't say that. Like there's a progression here. We find in the, from moving from one to four. There is though something like you've said, where it's just interesting that Jesus shows us the very kind of shades of this. And I think, again, we gotta get out of our head like the, the temporality of this or like, well, what length of time are we talking about? Like when we get to the second one, which we should move on to. And there is some sprouting of the seed. Like how much time are we talking about? Like if it's two weeks, are they in camp two, if it's three weeks, are they moved out of that into some other, one of the other schools? Uh, I think it's just to show us that there are really, again, four hearers, one believer, and we can see clearly what the one believer looks like. It's a little bit more difficult to maybe sometimes discern what the other three look like, but it gives us hope and encouragement and basically just a sense of like, this is the way the world works. To know pres positionally, that when we go out, and like you said, I love this already, this is a major theme, is speak the gospel to all people. I mean, in this way, the gospel is for all people. Because Jesus' saying, do not cast the seed here. Go and look at that narrow path and find out, try to keep it off the, the hard ground. Do not let the devil snatch it up. It just says, throw and seed, throw and seed. And so we have to keep doing that stuff. [00:40:10] The Challenge of Shallow Roots Jesse Schwamb: So let's get to number two. What, what? Yeah. What say? Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Let me read it here. This is in verse, uh, 20 and 21. Here. It says, as for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. Yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. And when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the world, immediately he falls away. So thi this is the person who, um, who has some sort of outward conversion experience, right? It's a person who receives the word, he receives it with joy, um, and appears to sprout, right? This is seed that has taken hold and has, uh, you know, the, the, and we, we can see that it has taken hold. So it's not just some hidden seed that has roots and never breaks the surface. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a plant that has made its way into the soil. It has taken roots of some sort. Um, but the roots are shallow. The roots never actually get, uh, deep enough to, to be able to survive the sun, right. In the, the original parable, it's, it's baked by the sun. And, you know, this is, um, I think what what we're gonna see is maybe to sort of preface your question, and I think probably this is gonna be one of those two parter episodes, even though we planned it to be one parter episode. Um, I think what we're gonna see here is that you can't actually know whether someone is. The hard rocks is the rocks or the thorns. Right? Un until, until all is said and done. Right. Right. And that's part of what's difficult is you, you want to look at a parable like this, and this is where I think maybe this is a good sort of like caution against overinterpreting, the parables, right? Christ is not trying to give us a rubric to identify who is what. Jesse Schwamb: Right. He's Tony Arsenal: not trying to give us like a litmus test to say like, that person is the hard soil. That person is the rocks. That person is the thorns. And you know, this reminds me, I, I recall, I, I dunno how many years ago, it was a couple years ago when Kanye West was going through his like Jesus phase, right? And he, everyone was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that Kanye is a Christian and he's writing this album called Jesus. Jesus Saves. And, and I, I just remember saying at the time, like, guys, there's a parable of the soils here. Like we should be. Um, we should be joyful that it, it appears that this seed is taking root, but there are lots of different outcomes when the seed takes root. And it's funny because I, I don't, I don't remember what episode this was and please don't go look it up 'cause that's a waste of everyone's time. But I remember when that conversation happened and I don't know whether there was an affirmation or a denial or what context came up in, but I remember contrasting him to Justin Bieber. And it's ironic, right, because I actually just read on Twitter today. Let me see if I can find the post during the next time you're talking. Justin Bieber posted this really amazing, theologically astute, mature kind of statement on Twitter today. And I think at the time, if you had asked me, um, is Kanye more likely to be the good soil or Justin Bieber to be the good soil, I would've said Kanye. Right? Just because he's, he was older, he is a little bit more established in himself. Um. Justin Bieber was still very young. He was, he was sort of like all over the place personality wise. He seemed to be changing radically. And it just goes to show like, you can't tell. And, and I'm not even saying right now like, this is, this is where it gets difficult. I'm not even saying right now, Justin Bieber is good soil, although I did right. Retweet his quote and did hashtag good soil. Almost aspirationally, right? But we can take a look at someone's life in retrospect and say, this person is bearing fruit, or this person is not bearing fruit. And, and that's really where this particular, um, type of soil goes. It's not so much the fruit, it's the sprout. And I think when we look at a situation like Kanye and, and. There's hopefully still a lot of life left for Kanye, and that means there's still hope for a con, a genuine conversion and bearing fruit that keeps with repentance that does not appear to be what had happened at the time. Right? He's gone totally off the rails at this point. So we pray for that. We hope, we hope for better things for him. Um, but. At the time, Kanye was, is he, he's going by Y now. I don't even know what to call him anymore. But Kanye was a sprout that grew up with great joy quickly. And what we found through time is that it appears that he, when he was, although maybe he fits better into the second, this next category that we'll have to push off till next week, I think. But either way, like he appeared to have sprouted, he appeared to have taken root and ultimately did not actually bear fruit. And that's the defining feature of these first three ones. It's not so much about what happens with the seed. Does it get in the ground? Does it not get in the grow? Does it sprouts, does it not sprout? It's ultimately about the fruitfulness, right? The final, the final phase of the parable, the final, um, the final type of soil is the one that produces fruit. So we'll get to that in detail, but that's what we need to think about. And again, like I said, it's not as though crisis saying like, all right, here's this checklist of ways to determine whether someone's conversion is correct, is true or not. Because we can't know that until after the fact and well after the fact. We also can't know that it's valid until after the fact. What I think this parable, broadly speaking, gets at is that we have to look at every situation and realize that there are these different possible outcomes. And although I don't know that this is explicitly part of the parable, it also sort of points us to the fact that like, because it's not a foregone conclusion about what's gonna happen, maybe there's also something we can do about it. Right? Right. Maybe when we realize someone might be on the rocky soil. Whether we, we have some reason to believe that or we just want to get out in front of that possibility, maybe there's still room to actually get in there and, and move the seed to a different soil, I guess might be a better way to use the metaphor is to, to just take the seed somewhere else or to till the soil, to get the rocks out of the soil. Although this is not talking about like rocks in the soil. It's talking about a layer, probably a layer of bedrock. Like Yes, exactly. Just under the surface. Jesse Schwamb: Right? So Tony Arsenal: there is an immutability about these, these different categories of, of people, and again, this is where like overinterpreting, the parable can get to be problematic, but we, we see that there are these categories, we can't necessarily know which one of these categories a person is in when they have some sort of outward expression of faith where they've received. I think we can tell the difference between that first category. Someone who just has not received the, the gospel at all, has not received the word of God at all, right? Like it's just bounced off of him. It's made no impact. I think we can see that that's a relatively straightforward, um, situation for us to assess. And of course we can't see someone's heart, but it's, it's usually pretty outwardly, readily available to us that they just have not received the word in any means. Right. When we get to these second two categories, that's not the case. We're talking about two different categories of people who have received the word and it has begun to sprout. It has begun, it actually has sprouted, not just begun to sprout, but it's sprouted. Um, I just think we need to be really careful to sort of not place someone in an immutable category until after we've seen what's gonna happen. Yes. Really across their whole life. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:47:41] The Importance of Deep Roots in Faith Jesse Schwamb: I'm glad you brought that up because we really have to remember that in the last three instances, you cannot tell from the soil what the outcome will be. So it is a little bit, I'm with you, kind of a misnomer in the translation. This idea of like rocky soil. Yeah. If it were truly like rocky soil, the way that probably most of us in the Western think of it like soil mixed with gravel, right? They're probably, the sewer would be like, why would I throw it on there like that? That doesn't make any sense. Certainly again, if you're looking for that, that really fertile, well tilled ground, the one that looks promising, you wouldn't do that. So more than likely, I'm with you. We're talking about like a hired limestone layer that would've been like a few inches below, and as the sun would come down, my understanding is of course, like that limestone would heat up. It'd be like the perfect warm environment for like a seed to immediately like spring up with some hope. And that's exactly I think what Jesus is after here. It's this idea that the seed springs up immediately. People receive the message with joy. There's been no root or development to deeper moist soil though, because it doesn't exist. It gets blocked out. But inci incidentally, like the heat of that rock bed actually is the thing that causes it to germinate and produce at least a sprout really, really quickly. But as soon as like any kind of other heat comes upon it, because it cannot not grow deeper because it cannot set the roots, because it cannot get enough water from deep down, then it's going to be quick to die. I think we see this all the time. Maybe we even see this to some degree, not exclusively and in the same kind of magnitude in our own lives. But you know, we may listen to a sermon with pleasure while the impression produced in us is like only temporary, short-lived. You know, our hearts can be like that stony ground. Sometimes it may yield like a plentiful cop clap of warm feelings and like good resolutions and good vibes. How often do we hear that language? But all this time, there may be no deeply rooted work in our souls. And that first like cold blast of oppression or temptation may cause like all of that to go away. What I see interpret it from this particular group and, and this the one that follows it very much the same is like a conversion to religion. So here where this is where I firmly, like, I think we have a class, and this might trigger some people, but I'm gonna say it anyway. We have a class for this to me is deconstructionism. Yeah. And I think what I've, I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind is that. I'm not sure that we have to be so concerned in this, this metaphor or this great parable about like what's the length of time here? So for instance, is it possible that somebody could be in this place where there is this hard layer of rock, which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end. Yeah, where somebody has heard the gospel message has come into the life of the church and finds that this is generally a pleasant way to believe and to live and to express these ideals until maybe they have a strong voice somewhere or they're confronted with the fact that this, their message now is not very tolerant. And so as soon as there comes against them, this push that maybe what you're saying is too exclusive, that all of a sudden there really is a manifestation that there's no real root there. Yeah, there was no conversion. There was a conversion to religious principle and ideas and insomuch as those things didn't push too much against whatever objectives they had. Not even like going after what happens in the the third instance here with all the pleasures of life and all the temptations of the flesh, but just that there is some challenge. To what they believe and that it would be continually lived out in their actual lives, meaningful enough that it would impact behavior, change their mind, and continue to make them outspoken about the thing in which they're setting their roots into that if those things would cause the death of. That sprouts, then to me, that's where we find deconstruction isn't falling. And so in that case, again, it's comforting because it's not a matter of actual conversion as it were. It's not a matter of actual regeneration that hasn't actually occurred. There's plenty of reasons to come alongside and to give the gospel some kind of favor or to give it some kind of acquiescence because it's good on its own. There are lots of things that are good about it, but the rootedness in that is not merely in the outward manifestations of all the benefits of the gospel. It is getting Christ, as we've said. Yeah. And if we're not abiding in Christ, then we will necessarily die. In fact, Christ says elsewhere when he speaks to himself that even every bad branch that does not bear fruit, the father prunes and throws away. And so here we find that happening. It's, this is traumatic, it is dramatic, but this is where I think we see oftentimes Christians really get unnerved and sometimes it really, I think, rocks them when they see people who've had, like you said, Tony, like some professional faith. And I remember us talking about Kanye, and I remember us saying like, I think you and I were cautiously optimistic. We said like, this is fantastic. God does this very thing where he transforms people. And then we see in the long term, in the long run, the manifestation of that transformation, not in just merely as sinner's prayer or some expression of knowing something about the gospel intellectually, but the living it out so that the plant itself grows up in Christ to know of his great love, and then to share and abide in that love where it bears fruit. And so here I find this again, to be just very comforting because I think we see this a lot and our nerves, a lot of Christians, but I think Christ is giving an example here to say, do not be a unnerved by this. [00:53:10] Encouragement for Sowers and Believers Tony Arsenal: Yeah, maybe one last thought and then we, we can push pause until next week when we come back to this parable. Is. I think it's, there's two words in this, um, this little, these two verses here that really stick out to me. There's the, the word immediately, right? Yes. He immediately receives it with joy. That word is repeated later on when he immediately falls away. So there is a, um, there's a, a sense of suddenness to this, to this kind of, I'm using quotation marks if you're not watching the YouTube to this quotation or this, um, conversion experience, right? I think we all know people who have kind of the slow burn conversion experience, right? That's not to say that those people may not be, um, on hard soil or rocky soil. Right. But the, the person that we're talking about in that crisis talking about is the person who hears the word and has every appearance of an outward, radical, outward conversion of joy. And then joy is the second word that that shows up here. One of the things that drives me crazy, you know, maybe just to, to riff off the, the deconstruction, um, narrative a little bit is it drives me crazy when some sort of, um, high profile Christian falls away from the faith or deconstructs or falls, you know, into deep sin and then abandons the faith or has a tragedy happened in their life and whatever reason they abandon the faith. There's this tendency particularly among, I, I think sort of. I don't know if like, there still are young restless reform Christians out there, but I think it's still a valid descriptor. Kind of like the, I'm trying not to be pejorative, but sort of like the surface level tulip is what I call them, like the five point Calvinists who like heard an RC sprawl sermon one time and think that they are like the def, they're the definition of Calvinism. There's this tendency among that demographic that when somebody falls away from the faith to act as though everything about their experience of Christianity was somehow like an act like it was a, it was a, it was a play they were putting on, they were deceiving everybody. Right. That's that's not real. It's not the, it's not the way that it actually works and, and. I think the, um, the flip side and the caution for us in that is that just because our experience of Christianity and our, our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that like it felt real and genuine and rooted for Derek Webb or for name, name your key, you know, Joshua Harris, name your big profile deconstruction person of the day. Um, there's a caution there for us and I think that's the caution here in this, um, in this, I dunno, part of the parable is. Just as this is saying, the reason that the person falls away immediately is because there is no root in them yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately falls away, right? The cause of this is because there is no route that ca

Kiera is joined by Dr. Hunter Bennett of Bonita Endodontics to dive into the ins and outs of dentistry partnerships, including hiring for passion, splitting tasks, going DSO, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and I am like beyond excited for this podcast. This is all of my worlds combining into one in such a beautiful, magical way. The guests that I have on today actually is a throwback to my Midwestern days. So I met Dr. Hunter Bennett at Midwestern when he was a pre-dentist ⁓ in the sim clinic of good old Midwestern University in Arizona. ⁓ That school is better known as the Harvard of the West and Hunter was a dental student there.   And then he went on for endo residency at the University of Nebraska Medical Center in 2017. Following his residency, he returned to Arizona and practice in the mountain town of Prescott for two years. In 2019, he moved his family across the country all the way over to Florida. He is married to his beautiful wife, Lacey. They have five kids from 12 to seven months old, 12 years old to seven months old. Hunter is busy. And the reason I wanted to Hunter on is because yes, I love a good throwback to Midwestern. Like it is truly the highlight of highlights, but Hunter has gone through   being an associate, being an owner, selling to a DSO. And I wanted him to come on and give perspectives of all of those, because I think so many dentists are questioning, what's my path? What's in front of me? And Hunter is kind of like, I feel like you're the buffet of dentistry. So like, which one was actually best for you? And I'm really excited for that. So Hunter, welcome. I'm so proud of who you are. I'm like, mama bear heart over here. Just so proud of you. Welcome to the show today. How are you?   Hunter Bennett (01:25) this is so good. I'm so excited. I love the buffet of dentistry. That's like maybe the nicest name anybody's ever given me. I love it. It's so good.   The Dental A Team (01:31) Hey, you're welcome.   You're welcome. And how fun is this? As we were like prepping, told you, was like, Hunter, it's just like you and me, Sim back in Sim clinic. Like we're over there. Like you're prepping your like class ones, classes. I still remember you walking up with loops, gloves on. You knew I'd smack you with a ruler. Like not really smack guys. I was nice in that. But if those gloves did not come up at Sim, like take those off. Kiera, come on. Do I really have to? Yeah, gross. I'm training you. Do not have cross contamination. So welcome back to Sim. It's so good to see you again.   Hunter Bennett (01:59) I   haven't forgotten that I changed my gloves just literally all the time all the time so I appreciate it. It's how this has come full circle though truly I mean like and you haven't changed like you're still the same person just awesome and you're just always that bright personality that bright in the lab so and it's cool just to see how far you've come I'm really proud of you it's awesome.   The Dental A Team (02:19) Thank you, thank you. I think it's serendipitous because the whole reason I built the company was for students like yourself. I think the love, I feel like emotions coming on and I don't wanna cry. Like I genuinely just love the Midwestern students so much. I like just so proud of you guys. I watched your journeys. mean, shoot, how long has it been since we graduated? Like I left Midwestern in shoot, like 2015, 2016 realm.   Hunter Bennett (02:44) That's where   I was. I think you got hired like when we got there. I think that that was your first year was my first year in the sim. And then you, I think you left with us too. So yeah, we kind of went to dental. We basically went to dental school together essentially. So yeah, you're basically a classmate. Yeah. 100%.   The Dental A Team (02:47) I did.   I think I did.   We did and helping you guys learn x-rays. Honestly, Dr. Smith   and Dr. Morrow did tell me that I care if you ever want to come to dental school, we don't even care. I didn't like confess this on like to the world. They didn't say all these words, but it basically was like, hey, we don't care what your death scores are. Like we'll accept you no matter what. I'll be that student. But then I decided I just love helping dentists. I love helping you guys. I love being that teammate to you. Like I was able to be in sim. I love seeing you succeed. I love being that support.   Hunter Bennett (03:06) Yeah, they won't care. They won't care.   Just get in. ⁓   The Dental A Team (03:23) that person that's there. Like when you're having those bad practicals or you need to chat shop or whatever it is. it's just real fun. And again, like mama bear proud of where you are and what you've done. and I ran into each other at the Dennis Money Summit together. And that was a throwback. You, Jeremy Mahoney, was like Midwestern crew was back together and just a fun time.   Hunter Bennett (03:28) Yeah.   You don't even, you   don't realize how huge our little side conversations were to me. And I texted you a little bit about this, but like, we don't have to get into all of that, but like just those few conversations literally changed my life. And I'm not exaggerating. I'm not exaggerating. So we can talk about that later, but ⁓ yeah, I so appreciate you and some of your insights and watching your journey and your presentation was just so off the charts.   The Dental A Team (04:03) Yeah. ⁓   Hunter Bennett (04:10) Everything about it was so good. Your stage presence, the delivery, ⁓ the message. I still can remember a lot of the stuff you said. So, ⁓ yeah, good job. It's just, I'm not surprised you are where you are. And like I said, it's been fun to watch and I'm just grateful for the opportunity to connect again. So, but yeah, you literally was life-changing for me. I'm not exaggerating.   The Dental A Team (04:18) Thank you. Thank you.   Well, that makes me really happy. And thank you. And we'll say that that's the dessert of the dentistry buffet here. So we'll save that conversation for our dessert. ⁓ But I think what you just said is what Dental A Team's purpose is like my purpose is life is my passion dentistry is my platform. And so I feel so blessed and lucky that dentistry brought all of us together and but able to help you have your dream life to be able to give conversations about that.   Hunter Bennett (04:34) Okay.   Sure.   The Dental A Team (04:56) At the end of the day, if businesses aren't serving our lives, then what are we doing? And I'm really getting sticky on that. I'm really starting to hunker down on that harder because I think it's so easy to obsess about the profit, the numbers, like what route should I go? But at the end of the day, if it's not serving the bigger purpose of our life, of our family, of who we want to be, I really think it's a good time to question that and to ask to make sure the star we're headed towards is truly the North Star that we actually want to achieve.   Hunter Bennett (05:01) percent.   The Dental A Team (05:23) So I'm really grateful and yeah, I'm just excited for you to share with our audience of Hunter Bennett going through a associateship, residency, ownership, DSO, and then cherry on top of side conversation that we had. ⁓ and just know that all conversations, I think it's a good Testament. They're just, they're genuine. Like, I just want you guys to succeed in whatever path that looks like. And if I can be a guide in any of that rock on, that's what I'm here for. So just like I used to give you teeth.   help you learn to take your gloves off. I'm here to help you make life choices and better practice decisions too.   Hunter Bennett (05:58) Absolutely. You're crushing it. Well, so yeah, yeah. Pros and cons. So I think, you know, before diving into that decision, I think it's really important. Like the big part of my journey was I've just learned so much along the way that my first job was in a place where in Prescott, like that's where I wanted to like, was like, okay, this is, I'm going to be in this town until I die. Like I'm so happy here.   The Dental A Team (06:00) Okay, take it away. Walk me through. Walk me through the pros cons. Let's hear about it.   Hunter Bennett (06:24) And I was in an amazing practice. Like he was such a good practice. the guy that I replaced, ⁓ Nate Duesnup, he, my coming there sort of sparked his leaving because that he had been trying to get in that practice as an owner for quite a while. He'd been there seven years. so my coming sparked a lot of those conversations and they didn't really come to an agreement per se. so ⁓ Nate went and bought a practice in Florida. I, you know, I kind of found that out along the way and I showed up and then me and Nate became friends.   But I knew within probably the first two months I wasn't going to stay at this practice like long, long, long term. Um, it was very clear to me that there wasn't going to be a pathway to partnership. I was a business major. I always planned on owning practice. Um, but this was a really good opportunity. I'm really, really grateful for, um, just that, that chance that I had, but I knew immediately, like I wasn't, um, I wasn't seen as a partner, you know, which is very like, wasn't, I was just an associate and I felt like I just had way more to offer.   The Dental A Team (06:59) you   Hunter Bennett (07:22) I was, I was probably as much of a gung ho person as, as you can be coming out of residency as far as trying to be an owner. ⁓ but I was willing to like sort of sweat my way in if that's what it took just to be where I, where I wanted to live. ⁓ so long story short, like I learned pretty quickly that wasn't going to happen. So started just taking a bunch of CE, ⁓ traveling and then became good friends with Nate. Nate's like, Hey, just come check out Florida, you know? And, ⁓ so yeah, I went out there and, and, ⁓   The Dental A Team (07:35) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (07:52) If I've ever had a prayer answered as clearly as that, that was it. I mean, was, was clear as day. That's where my family was supposed to be. I actually served a mission for my church in Florida. I never planned to go back. ⁓ And that's ⁓ Tampa. So they actually, yeah, it was inside my mission, but I live in Naples and so didn't spend a ton of time in Naples, but yeah. So anyways. ⁓   The Dental A Team (08:03) No way. Same place?   Yeah?   I know Naples. I consulted a practice in Naples.   It's a beautiful place. Yeah, it's awesome.   Hunter Bennett (08:16) Yeah, yeah.   It's a, it's an awesome place and, ⁓ coming here was, it was definitely not like what I envisioned, but the practice was and the partnership was, and we experienced just like when I got here, he had bought the practice and the old owner was staying on like 50 % of the time and Nate was just grinding, you know, expanded the office. He had already done a lot of the footwork to get us to seven ops and.   We grew so fast, like we tried to find associates, like within my first six months, I didn't even bought in yet. We were already interviewing for associates and we couldn't find anybody that we just really wanted to send offers to. But yet we were just like in the chair all day. And I'm sure you hear this all the time. Like, I'm sure you get this all the time, Cary. It's like just grinding and grinding and then like you get done and then you're dealing with, you know, assistance and days off and they want to raise and, and just drama.   The Dental A Team (09:01) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (09:12) Taxes, know workers comp I mean you name it like all the things that come after work that are so stressful and Having a young family and and then just like like responsibilities outside of work like, know for us like there's a lot of stuff going on at church ⁓ At home. I was coaching my kids. So again, I think a lot of people that are listening can relate to this lifestyle and I think   The Dental A Team (09:14) Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (09:36) I as as I prepped for this conversation, we had a couple options. One option was to bring in a consultant, which we had thought about, and we already because we both came from the same practice in Arizona that had used a consultant, we felt like we sorta. We already knew how to be efficient. We already had a ton of systems in place. I think we struggled a little bit culturally. And I think frankly, this isn't a. You didn't put me up to this, but like had we hired someone like you like honestly, we may not have gone to DSO route. Frankly, like.   The Dental A Team (09:50) Yeah.   Sure.   Hunter Bennett (10:05) Cause all the things we were struggling with, think could have been dealt with in a different way. But we saw the DSO route as, as an option, you know, um, and there's, mean, we went back and forth and like, that's all we would talk about. We'd get done and then we talked about it for like an hour and then we'd go in cycles and circles. And this is the pro, this is the con. And ultimately we landed on, you know, um, this is just a really good way to sort of bring some balance in our lives. And I'll be honest with you. I, I hated, hated.   The Dental A Team (10:10) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (10:35) hated like the first six months, the transition period for us was particularly hard. We have a very unique practice. But I'm in almost four years now, and I will say like, I feel like it all happened for a reason. And it's really allowed me a ton of flexibility in my life, and my lifestyle has improved a ton. So kind of what you described as sort of your purpose and letting people   The Dental A Team (10:40) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (11:03) kind of see like what is your North Star? Like what is your real purpose? ⁓ I don't think that would have been, I don't think I would have been able to discover that had I continued on the path that I was on, honestly. So a DSO I think is good. First of all, when you talk about like a DSO, it's like a swear word, right? Because there's so many types of DSOs and there are some bad players out there for sure. And so like deservedly so, there's a lot of companies that should have a bad name, but there's also some really good ones.   The Dental A Team (11:14) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (11:33) And that was one   thing, like we interviewed around and we met with a lot of different groups and talked to people from different groups. And I think there's a lot of good groups out there, but I'm actually quite happy with our group overall. And it's been four years and I will say like a lot of the turmoil I felt in that first six months was just the change, know, the change in trajectory, like giving up. I still run my practice. The thing is like, no one knows that I'm in a DSO. Like people know like my referring doctors now, but like they don't care.   The Dental A Team (11:44) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (11:59) Because nothing changes like nothing I run the way I want to run it and that's very unique to my group. I would say we hire we fire we make days off like we do pretty much anything we want we bought you know, we can get equipment so I Feel like my day-to-day really hasn't changed and I know that's not true for every DSO I think DSOs can be compared to like like restaurants for example. It's like ⁓ don't go out to eat because it's not healthy It's like well, I mean generally speaking probably true, but there are some healthy options out there   The Dental A Team (12:00) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Totally.   Right.   Hunter Bennett (12:29) And   ⁓ that's kind of how I see DSOs is like I do think there are some healthy options out there and it totally depends on personality. So. ⁓ I will say like the pros for me so far and you can ask me like maybe some more specifics, but yeah, yeah, so I'm so. Yeah, like that's that's just the general story, but I will say like you know this far in like that's kind of the general gist of my experience and if I could do it all over again, I I probably would. ⁓   The Dental A Team (12:37) Mm-hmm.   I'm going to ask some questions. I'm like plunging behind. I've got a decent amount. I'm excited for it.   Hunter Bennett (13:00) I say though, like I am very curious to see what it would have been like to have hired, you know, like to bring you in and just say like, all right, come in here. And a couple of my assistants were like, don't bring the consultant, don't hire a consultant. And I don't think that really influenced me as much as I felt like, honestly, I just felt like I didn't need one, but looking back now, I think that definitely would have been a really good option. So I think you either go the DSO route or you bring someone in. But again, I talked to dentists, I work with a bunch of different dentists. I talked to a bunch of guys all the time, every day.   The Dental A Team (13:08) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Sure.   Hunter Bennett (13:30) And they haven't had such good experiences with consultants either. So I'm sure you'd get the same thing, you know, but.   The Dental A Team (13:33) I do. That's   one of my first questions when I walk into an office. Tell me what you think about consultants and it's a rip. And I want them to, because why not? Like let's get it on the table. And I think, I think the difference with us consulting versus others, because consultants are going to be there's good and bad, just like there are of DSOs, just like there are of marketing, which is like there is a people. I think the difference is one,   Hunter Bennett (13:39) Yeah, yeah, totally.   The Dental A Team (13:58) I come a team member first. So like my job is to help dentists and I'm a business owner and a multimillion dollar business owner second. And so when you combine those two perspectives together, I very much understand the business side of it. And it's not just theories and ideas. It's true, like hard knocks, ⁓ hundreds and thousands of offices and team members of what are the processes. But second, like I don't hire MBA students. I don't hire people that are just like,   you know, they, want to be a consultant. hire people that have a passion for it. They've been in the front and the back office. So I think teams, that's why I actually named it Dental A Team. want it to be dentists and teams because so many consulting companies either focus on the dentist or they focus on the team, but not both. I'm like, but you have to get both on the same page. And teams are freaked out by consultants. Consultants come in and fire. Consultants are stressful. Consultants are rigid. They make you do it this way. And my thoughts are no one, it's you with your vision.   Hunter Bennett (14:42) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (14:55) it's what do the numbers tell us and the profitability and three based on those two pieces, what are the systems that we need to improve based on like the problems in the practice too. And when you go about it that way and my job is to make life easier, not harder. I think when you go about it that way, teams are not as scared. And that's also why we built the podcast. So teams could hear us. They could learn like, what do we talk about? Because I think a lot of it's just the unknown. And so I, that's going to be like my two cents for a consultant, but I'm going to like back up for you Hunter on, have questions for you.   Hunter Bennett (15:24) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (15:25) I have question marks all the way around. One, think actually excellent point on the associateship and doctors listening, Hunter, you said you were a very equipped, very eager associate. You have a degree in business. I mean, you've got like the little gold star around you, a prime, ⁓ an associate prime for partnership that I think so many doctors are afraid and they don't know how to build partners in that they actually miss a lot of golden opportunities. And so   I like that was one of the nuggets I picked up from your story of like, I don't know who the doctor was and I'm not here to judge. They have their own story, their own reasons. But I think when doctors have great associates like yourself, you're destined to like, I know you're going to own a practice. When you come in with that type of acumen behind you, you're going to own a business. So either I can be smart and snag you and partner in with you and have you help me build and create it. Or I can let you go and you're either going to become my competitor or you're going to go somewhere else. And so there's no right or wrong.   but I think so many owner doctors, do see this. They're afraid bringing on a partner, you do like take home less pay. Like with air quotes, you get paid upfront, but you're like day in, day out is less. ⁓ But I really wanted to highlight that because I think like, well, it all worked out perfectly for you, Hunter. I think doctors listening to this could definitely learn from that. And it's okay if you don't want a partner. Some people are adamant of no partners. They don't want to give any of that up. They don't want to give away the control. That's okay. Don't hire someone like Hunter.   Or be okay that he's gonna probably leave you in about one to two years. And like any thoughts around that? They do.   Hunter Bennett (16:50) Yeah. I think everybody goes through that. Yeah. No, a   hundred. Like I have a ton of thoughts about that because it's, it's, I do, because I mean, I hear it all the time, like every week where Dennis is like, well, I'm just going to plug in an associate and then I'll just take some time off. it's like, that's not really how it works because you have to decide in like Jeremy Mooney, for example, like I talked to Jeremy all the time. He's one of my best friends and you sort of, I know it, I feel like every time I talk to him,   The Dental A Team (16:57) Talents.   Hunter Bennett (17:19) And he wouldn't mind me saying this, like just inevitably what happens is when someone doesn't buy in all the way or they just treat it like a job, like they come and go, you know, and that's, that's the price you pay. And so as a specialist, like we have to maintain relationships and referring offices. if associates are coming and going, that is such a, it's it's a rough look. And then for a dental practice, it's the same thing where patients, know, patients come to me they're like, I went to this practice and I saw the third doctor in my third visit, you know, and it's, they don't like that turnover.   And so what you make in money you pay for in stress and headache, I think on an associate, like when you're making money on your associate, not to mention all the headaches that come with training, reviews, stuff like that. ⁓ And so, yeah, I think ⁓ I totally see both sides of it. And the doctor that Nate and I both work for, he's got like four associates now and he's crushing it. So like, good for him. know, like that's, he's doing really, really well.   The Dental A Team (18:14) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (18:16) ⁓ Me and eight are like best friends and we have this relationship that like will be friends for life like he's like he doesn't have any brothers like I'm like his brother he's like my third brother, you know, it's just We just have this amazing relationship that I wouldn't trade for anything, you know, and not all partnerships are that way I think we've been super super blessed and super lucky that way but when both partners are both givers and you both want to just work hard and you have their back no matter what like you can find that man like   The Dental A Team (18:21) Mm-hmm.   Agreed.   Hunter Bennett (18:44) whatever money you give up by being a partner, you'll get back in like that, just sitting down at the end of the day and having someone to talk to that you're equal in business plan with, to take risks with, to, you know, even just to have like that comfort of talking to someone, you know, like you you get done with a tough day and just having that person there is, is priceless. I don't think you can put a price tag on that. So I wouldn't give up my partnership with Nate for anything, you know, and, and,   The Dental A Team (19:00) Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (19:09) Yeah, and and I think that's quite unique like in our DSO like no one really knows like we have like 400 partners I think now and Like when they think of Nate they think a Hunter or when they think a Hunter they think about Nate like we're just known like you usually don't see one without the other so to the doctors out there that own if you can find someone like that or someone even remotely close like man and someone that's gonna stay long-term like you eliminate so much stress and so many headaches by being open to having a partner and then if you have associates that might come and go   The Dental A Team (19:20) Awesome.   Hunter Bennett (19:38) And you want, you have the space and the availability and you want to do that, that's an option. But if you feel like you're drowning and you can find someone that's a really good business partner, I definitely see the value. Cause Nate and I, spent the better part of two years looking for associates to work for us. And again, it's that whole thing of like, well, man, I don't think they're going to be, I don't think they're going to have the personality that we need. But you know, then you hire, then you interview the really good ones. You're like, well, they're going to want to be a partner so we can't hire them. So you're just always playing that game of like.   There is no perfect answer. You know, you don't, you don't have like a unicorn associate that's just, and maybe there are a few where they just are just a total 10 out of 10, but then they just don't want to own. just want to show up. So it's pretty rare. They will. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (20:17) Totally. And some will. It is.   But okay, that actually led me to my next point I wanted to dig into because partnerships, some are magical like you guys have and others sink ships. So I want to hear how did you get into the partnership? Like what, what does that look like? How much did you both bring? Like as much as you want to get into the nitty gritty with me, because I think partnerships are so challenging to do well and to hear that you and Nate have a great thing. So I'm almost like, okay,   Hunter Bennett (20:24) Yeah.   Yeah, totally.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (20:46) There were some tips about associateships and bring us and I agree like, welcome down, like have these people with you. They're going to grow your business. I could not do a Dental A Team does without incredible consultants. And while none of them are partners per se, a lot of them, I've given them opportunities to do different pieces, tip from the get-go. We talked about, offered her to be a partner. She's like, heck no, I want nothing to do with that, but give me my time and give me my life with my child and girl I'm with you forever. So get read, there are different things, but I mean,   Did I give up money when I first brought in all these other consultants to help out? The answer is yes. But I look at it now and it actually like makes me so giddy to see there are so many practices we're impacting that me as a solo person could not serve at that level. So that's, think the beauty of like, yes, there's a dip, but there's also growth in and serving that you can do at a higher level. So with that said on associates, now we're moving into partnerships. Walk me through Hunter. I want to know the like ins, outs, good, bad, like partnerships. I'm sure you guys have had.   some knockout drag outs. I'm sure you guys have had highs and lows in partnerships. I'm sure you like, but I'm curious, like, how did you guys structure it to make it great for both of you? And then I'm to go into DSO. So I want to know partnership though, because like, it's my buffet. I'm choosing an associate now buying and being partners in DSO.   Hunter Bennett (21:57) Yeah.   Yeah,   yeah, for sure. think the key was ⁓ for me and Nate, like we're both givers. And so, you know, we never have fought over money. you know, there's just never, we've just been lucky to not have that. We're very similar because we kind of cut our teeth in the same practice. We had the same philosophy too. Like just we're very, very efficient. both work super, super hard.   The Dental A Team (22:25) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (22:26) So we're both hard drivers that way. We're both very perfectionistic Like we we both do the same type of root canals like we we kind of have the same treatment philosophy, you know, ⁓ And granted he's seven years older than me So like Nate you I have to give him a ton of credit because he's just been super helpful clinically and like I felt like after years like I was actually I wasn't at my prime prime for sure But like I was I was I was cooking I was doing pretty good and he helped bring me up to where I am   The Dental A Team (22:50) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (22:53) Now, you know, I've been here like seven years now, but like that first year, like he still just helped me, you know, deal with some of the tougher cases. Naples is just a place that tough cases. But the thing that, thing, yeah, it's old people, retired, calcified, whatever stuff from Europe. That's like totally, totally crazy. But ⁓ he was just so patient. And so just, man, he was just so happy to have me here. Cause he was like, he was burning out. Like he was so tired. And so he was just grateful I was here. He always told me that.   The Dental A Team (23:01) Right? is. It's a good place for business.   Hunter Bennett (23:20) The way we structured it. I worked for him for a year and I was supposed to buy in after the first year, but COVID had hit. so banks weren't like, they were like, hold on, chill out. Like it was literally like March I was supposed to buy in. And so like, you know, we were like, me and him were like alternating days and like, you know, like sharing N95s cause that's all we had. And I mean, that's a whole nother thing. So that delayed the buy-in like six months. And during that time, like, yeah. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (23:27) ⁓ huh.   Yeah.   And hold on, before you go to that, when you moved out there, was it part of   your contract and agreement that you were going to buy in in a year? Was it 50-50? Were those things like in place? Were those like in your contract? Okay.   Hunter Bennett (23:51) Yeah, one year. Yeah, yeah, it was all agreed to.   And you know, I actually don't know if it was in, so the thing was like, when I was in Prescott, I went to the same church that Nate had gone to, like I went to the same congregation. So everybody that knew him just absolutely loved him. Like he was like the cream of the crop. Everybody was just like, you know, like I felt like I was partnering with like, you know, just this.   The Dental A Team (24:10) Mm.   Hunter Bennett (24:18) Completely amazing person which he is so I had no doubts. Yeah, it's like the Michael Jordan like not even I don't even know like analogy would be like Muhammad Gandhi like he was like just such this Just a good dude, you know and so I didn't have a lot of reservations as far as our agreements go and then just again, maybe not the smartest thing but like I don't know it may have been in the writing but I don't really remember and I wasn't that worried about it because I guess naively I trusted him and just felt like it would work out but this was all verbally agreed to   The Dental A Team (24:18) Michael Jordan of dentists.   Wow.   Because I do know for some people   like some people have it's the verbal agreement. I'm sure   Hunter Bennett (24:47) I would, mean, he would have been willing to, he would have been willing   to, and maybe it was, like it might have been in our first contract. I had David Cohen write it up, I had to go back and look, but he did our partnership agreement too. He's awesome for anybody that needs an attorney, but yeah, I've sent him a ton of people. But that was the thing, like we had all that agreed to, then the other conversation that I know a lot of people don't have, and a lot of people hold resentment about is how you're gonna   The Dental A Team (25:00) We do love David Cohen. We refer to him quite a lot.   Hunter Bennett (25:17) split profits. And so we decided early on, it's like, eat what you kill. Like if you do, so the way I did it, I, we, sort of calculated a rough guesstimation of what our overhead was. And then we gave ourselves like, we would do, okay, you get this percentage. We each get this percentage of our production. And then let's say it was like 45, 55, then we split the profits that same way. Whatever's leftover, we're going to split by that same amount. And frankly, like, I don't think we were ever correct.   The Dental A Team (25:18) Totally.   Mm-hmm.   by the amount that you produced? Is that correct? So,   okay.   Hunter Bennett (25:45) collected. we're   fever like our collection is same as product like we're yeah, so it's the same number but Yeah   The Dental A Team (25:50) Right. So sorry, let me back this up. So you guys go produce   and let's just use numbers. Usually in GP, it's 30 % of what you produce. Usually in specialty, you're like 40, 45 % of what you produce. Like let's just use some like loose numbers, hypothetical.   Hunter Bennett (26:03) Sure.   The Dental A Team (26:04) Nate, you produce, you're welcome. We've got this. So let's just say you produce 100 grand in a month. Nate produces 100 grand in a month. Let's say you guys are both taking 30 % your specialist. So giggle at me because I know you're not 30%. You both would be taking 30 grand of that leaving. We've got 70 from each of you, but we have overhead in that as well. So we've got to take our overhead out of there. So we've got 70, 70 hypothetical we're going to take. Let's just do let's leave at the end there's 60,000.   Hunter Bennett (26:21) Yep. Yep.   Yep. Yep.   Say 50.   The Dental A Team (26:33) 60,000 of profit   Hunter Bennett (26:34) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (26:34) at the end of it after you guys have produced 200,000, collected 200,000, you both have been paid your 30,000 each. Of that 60,000, how was that split? Was that a 50-50 split or was it based on like, let's say you produced 100 grand, but Nate produced 200 grand. Did the 60,000 at the end get split based on production amounts or was that like, how was the profit split?   Hunter Bennett (26:54) Correct.   Yeah, so we would just split the profit exactly like you described in the latter example where it's based on what you produced that month or collected that month, then we would split the profits that month. And I just had a spreadsheet, I did all the math. And so we would just work it out between the two of us. And we never had an issue. I would just plug it and just plug and chug and it was never an issue. And truly like...   The Dental A Team (27:09) Nice.   Hunter Bennett (27:19) We were never more than like 52 48, you know, that might've been like, ⁓ you know, I don't remember a month ever being off by more than 2 % or 4%. So it really wasn't a big battle. And one thing too, that I told Nate going into this, and this was for me, I had to just like, was president of like my business school, like my junior year president of the whole business school, like the vice president of all business school, my senior year, like   The Dental A Team (27:23) Thank you.   interesting.   Hunter Bennett (27:45) I was used to being leadership positions. I was used to sort of being in charge. But I knew coming here, he was there first. And I told him, was like, I know you're going to be the alpha. All the referrals know you. I'm just going to have to take that backseat role. And I think me just acknowledging that and accepting that was so important because I had no ego. I didn't have to prove that there was no competition between me and Nate. We were 100 % on the same team.   The Dental A Team (27:56) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (28:12) ⁓ Again, and maybe that's unique to a specialty practice because you're kind of working together maybe more than you would in a GP office. I don't know. ⁓ Or maybe you're competing for patients a little more. I'm not sure. I've never worked in a GP office. But the dynamics for us is like, we're just, there's like all the referrals. It doesn't matter which doctor you want. Like you're getting your next available doctor unless there's a few exceptions. So we were very good about having no egos. And that was really important to our partnership too. But   financially it was quite easy for us and convenient just because our numbers were pretty similar. Or if he took a couple weeks off, then obviously he'll still get his collections from that month, but then I would get a little bit bigger chunk of the profit. But then when I took my time off the next month, they would just work itself out. so, ⁓ and he was always, like I said, he was always at the end of the year, Nate always produces just a little more than me. And I was just okay with it. You know, I was like, whatever, hang on.   The Dental A Team (28:46) Mm-hmm.   Sure.   Sure.   Hunter Bennett (29:06) And this I think is the desert that we can talk about later because how do we   The Dental A Team (29:07) Fascinating. Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (29:10) measure success? How do we measure fulfillment? And when we tie it to profits and numbers and income, it's just not super healthy. And I've had to learn that. Like that's probably been one of my biggest paradigm shifts over the last year, year and a half and sparked by your presentation and the conversations that we had. So.   The Dental A Team (29:27) Well, that's fascinating to me and thank you. That's a huge compliment. ⁓ I'm fascinated by that partnership split and the fact that you both were eat what you kill. I actually love that because then you got two very motivated partners. Also, you don't accidentally get one partner who's not pulling their weight. I know a lot of times ⁓ and I think the difference that I sometimes see in GP versus specialty is sometimes I have a super producer in GP.   So one who's doing hybrid and implants and all these different cases. And then I've got another doctor who's doing bread and butter. Well, obviously the super producer is going to produce more, but you need the bread and butter dentist to be taking care of all those profie patients and all the day in day out. So you can super produce. So those ones, often will see that it's more going to be a 50 50 split, but I do oftentimes see the super producer gets a little annoyed because they're like, if they're not both givers.   ⁓ I've seen this wax hard on partnerships just in the fact of you look at the numbers and what are you putting up on the board? But I think those partners really have to look at this. It's the ultimate whole. And if the ultimate whole of the business is doing well, both parties are winning. And they have to just see that they bring different strengths to the table, just like in a marriage. And we're not looking at dollars on the board. We're looking at collective as a practice. But that is one where I do watch. And so I do think in specialty, that might be something I had not thought of.   but I love to hear how you guys broke it down, how you picked it apart. And also the fact that there was no ego on taking a patient. Cause I do sometimes see that in partnerships where, if I'm going to get what I kill, I want more of these patients. I want to take them on because that's going to impact my production. But at the end of the day, you guys are still doing well on the profit side. So fascinating to me to hear how it was set up, how you guys got into it, how the buy-in was, ⁓ and then moving forward. And I'm guessing Hunter, I don't know Nate.   Hunter Bennett (31:01) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (31:18) But I'm excited. I mean, I have a quote over here by Gandhi. So when you said that I was like, well, perfect. ⁓ But my hunch is typically in a partnership, I see someone who's like yourself, who's really big into business, like they know the numbers, they have the business acumen. And usually the other partner tends to be more of the people side or this is like, you usually have a separation. So I again, I don't know Nate, but my guess would be not to say that you're not great with team members to   but I'm guessing you're very business savvy, you're very system savvy, and he's gonna be more people savvy and relationship savvy. Again, I don't know, maybe both of you had that, but I'm curious, did you see that dynamic in your partnership that maybe blended you guys really well coming together?   Hunter Bennett (31:54) Yeah, no, that's a really good point and we do compliment it. You're pretty much spot on. would say Nate definitely like is a lot more of a calming, know, I'm kind of like people tell me I'm just fiery, you know, like we've had different.   The Dental A Team (32:07) You   I do remember you walking   up. You wouldn't even shut your light off on me. Like you were busy. You were down to business. Like, here, I need these things in the most respectful way. ⁓   Hunter Bennett (32:14) Yeah, I'm   Pretty pretty focused. Yeah, pretty focused I would say and so I would say there is that little bit of balance But Nate's not a dummy like he was harvard number two in his class at harvard like he's super smart and so He would always lean into me for the business stuff just because I had a degree and I could speak the language and accounting and depreciation and all you know, like that stuff I think sort of intimidated him more than it needed to because once you explain it, know, you know But because he hadn't trained that way like he would sort of lean into me and that stuff   The Dental A Team (32:33) or.   Right.   Hunter Bennett (32:43) But even having someone to talk about because he'd already dealt with the accountant. He already dealt with workers comp. So I'd be like, hey, how does this work? Cause I'd never done it. So he'd explain it to me. And then as a team, we would work it out. You know, as a team, we would make big decisions. So yeah, I mean, you'll both bring different things to the table. And it's actually good that you can be different. I had another opportunity to partner somewhere else before Nate. I was way too much like that guy. I was like.   The Dental A Team (32:49) Thank   Yes.   Hunter Bennett (33:10) This isn't gonna work. I knew right away like I said, you know I went and visited the practice did the whole thing sent like a follow-up email and I think we both knew it's just like yes, isn't gonna work and The negotiations didn't go very far and it was fun. It was like we're still friends and we keep in touch So I think it's important to like you think ⁓ we're so alike man That's not always like the best thing. And so our differences are actually probably what what bring us together and make us strong ⁓   The Dental A Team (33:19) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   No.   Hunter Bennett (33:37) Yeah. And so that's, that's like a, that's a super fair point about that. And again, a lot of it's just been serendipitous. Like that just happened to fall into place. It just, it's just worked out that way, but it's, it's like a marriage. That's the perfect thing. It's like, it's like a marriage without all the benefits per se. Like you just, you're just like, you're just, you just get the hard part of them. Yeah. You just get the hard, you get the hard part of the marriage where you have tough conversations, but again, you just take them head on. And when you have no ego and, or a limited ego, and when you just want your partner to succeed, like   The Dental A Team (33:38) Yeah.   You get the profits benefit.   Hunter Bennett (34:08) You can't really fail in my opinion. ⁓ even when it came to like negotiate, like I had six months of partnership income that I was missing out on, but then there's the COVID thing. And, at the end of the day, said, Nate, like what number, like what, what, what do want me to do the whole valuation? I didn't really care. I was willing to pay whatever I didn't. To me, the relationship was way more important than any number. And so we just came to a number that we both felt good about based on the valuation, but I was flexible and frankly, I didn't care because it was so important to me. And, ⁓   The Dental A Team (34:09) That's awesome.   Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (34:37) And we came to what we thought both was fair and it's been, it's been a dream. you know, and those, we're like best friends and those conversations can still be a little awkward and a little hard, but they don't have to be. And they, they were always fine. You know, um, if there's a book I could recommend, talk about it all the time. It's Crucial Conversations. Um, one of my favorite books of all time. think everybody should read it before you get married. You should read it like in college. Like I think it should be required reading before you graduate college.   The Dental A Team (34:50) Right.   Hunter Bennett (35:04) But that's one book that's just helped me a ton. As a leader, business owner, as a partner, ⁓ husband, it's just helped me a ton.   The Dental A Team (35:05) Definitely agree.   I love that. I also love that you guys just, I think when you said like it just works and it was serendipitous, I think that's something to look for in a partnership. I think if anybody's looking at partners, if it's hard and it's just not flowing, don't force it to work. ⁓ The best partnerships I really do see where they kind of fall into place this way, they're aligned, you hire people that are complimentary to you, not just like you, because you do need the two halves to a whole.   Hunter Bennett (35:29) Hmm.   The Dental A Team (35:39) to make it really great. And then I think you guys have done a good job of keeping egos in check. think you guys, what you said Hunter, that I hope all partners listening to this or potential partners, you want your partner to succeed and that's your ultimate goal and that's what you're driving for. when Jason and I learned that in our marriage, where like my greatest success is Jason's success, it went from a like, what are you giving for me? And what am I getting out of this relationship to a like,   I want Jason to give me five stars because he's a raving fan because like I am, I'm doing all that I possibly can to make sure he's succeeding and his life is incredible. And when both partners are in that, it goes away from you and it goes to them and to make sure that they're succeeding. And I really do see that that works great in marriages, partnerships. So I'm obsessed with that. Kudos to you guys on that. I love that also Hunter, I hope people buying in.   the partnership and having that, I say the way you start a partnership is how you're going to end the partnership. I love Hunter that you came in as the quote unquote junior partner, but you, leveled yourself up to be an equal partner to him. And I'm really proud of you because I think a lot of associates are stay very timid. They say very junior. They act like they don't know anything rather than being like an equal partner. And I'm like, no, no, no, if you're going to be a partner in this, you need to be a partner and bring your weight. So kudos to you on that.   Hunter Bennett (36:49) Yeah.   Totally.   The Dental A Team (36:57) And then I also just really love that you guys have just had multiple conversations that you just have blended it so beautifully and that you said you were willing to pay whatever he wanted. Like, of course, you're going to be fair. You knew the numbers, but the partnership and the success was more important to you. And I think when you go into it and that's how you start your partnership, I can tell why you guys are actually really great partners. So great job and thanks for highlighting that. And now I want to know about selling to a DSO because I do agree. ⁓ Having a consultant.   oftentimes makes it where you don't have to sell to a DSO. And we do that sometimes. Sometimes I'll grow the practices for you and it's like, well, why would you sell to a DSO when they're just gonna come in and grow your business anyway? Like, let's do this on your own. I had a doctor who we were chatting and he's like, yeah, Kiera, they're gonna give me five mil for it. And I said, cool. Next year, you're probably gonna do five million on your own or within two years. So you can pay them out and they're just gonna do what you were already going to do. And agreed, a lot of that stress comes.   Hunter Bennett (37:36) Yeah.   Yeah.   The Dental A Team (37:55) from that, but Hunter, you said something in the very beginning that struck me when you said you sold to the DSO. You said your life has exponentially gotten better. Your work life balance has gotten better since selling to the DSO, but you also said that you're doing pretty much all the same things you were doing as a business owner. So I'm super curious. How did your life get better while you're still doing, like you were like, I'm still hiring, I'm still firing. And I was like, so what was the perk of selling to a DSO and helped me understand how your life got better?   Hunter Bennett (38:19) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (38:23) And then I also want to know about your cell deal too, if you're open to that.   Hunter Bennett (38:27) Yeah, for sure. don't, um, I probably should have illustrated the point that it's not like we didn't just get overwhelmed and all of sudden decide, okay, we're not, we're just going to throw up our hands and sell. Like we had hired a different office manager who was like, went through like Gary Katas's training. Like, like she was phenomenal. She was amazing. In fact, like she was a lot like you in a lot of ways, just really great personality, new dentistry. And I thought she was going to change our lives, you know, and she is awesome. Like she's an amazing person.   But it didn't end up working out. She left the practice that was being transitioned to a new doctor. So she came with us for a few weeks and it was going okay. And then they had a big crisis back there and she's like, is it okay if I just go back and help for like a week? And we're like, yeah, do what you need to do, you know? And then that doctor offered her equity in his practice. And so she ended up staying there, whatever. Yeah, whatever, it is what it is. And so my point is, like, I feel like we tried a different office manager. We tried restructuring and we tried.   The Dental A Team (39:15) I mean, good deal.   Hunter Bennett (39:25) The only thing we didn't hire a consultant, we definitely talked about it, but we didn't, I think in some ways I was probably just a weak leader in that way where I was maybe a little bit too proud to just get the help that we probably needed and instead just went a different route, you know? And so hindsight's always 20-20, but that just to create a little bit of the background to the story though. So it's not like we just, you know, all of sudden decided, you know, we're gonna,   The Dental A Team (39:47) Of course.   Hunter Bennett (39:55) just sell. So we had done all this other footwork. Sorry, what did you want to know about like the structure of the deal or what? Yeah. Okay. So when we, so when we, you know, after having done all this, we kind of, we had interviewed all these doctors, we had one kind of in the holster, maybe you can associate and we were just like, we were interviewing people, but we was just so, we were just tired. It's just like when you're doing root canal, it's like from like seven to five and you don't even have time to use like the bathroom.   The Dental A Team (40:03) I do, I do want to know structure of the deal. Yeah, tell me it.   Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (40:25) get a drink of water. It's just, we just burned ourselves out because we were chasing something and I don't even think we, we just wanted to change growth. Like we just wanted to, we just wanted to grow. We just always said all the time, were just grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And so we just kept the pedal to the metal. Excuse me. And I would say we just sort of outgrew ourselves and not that the wheels ever fell off, but like the culture in our practice was okay. Like we had good people, but we did have some of the wrong people on the bus. ⁓   The Dental A Team (40:27) Yep.   Hunter Bennett (40:52) And so when we started talking to DSOs, they saw our numbers, they saw our trajectory and we knew we had a lot of leverage. It was 2021. So the market was just red hot. We got a really good evaluation. We got a really good multiple. they were, you know, and so, you know, I actually talked to Matt Molcock, you know, he's my advisor and, ⁓ and just, I talked to my mentors, Dr. Jones, like, you know, ⁓ just people that I really respect. He's the man he had started nine, nine different endo or worked in or started nine different practices and   The Dental A Team (40:59) I see. That is hot.   Mm-hmm.   Aw, Dr. John.   Hunter Bennett (41:19) And his advice to me was like, you know, like I would do it if I were you. And so a lot of people would just had kind of encouraged me. And so at that point, me and Nate said, you know, we, and we got opinions both ways. And at the end of the day, our conclusion was it doesn't matter. Like, if I'm being honest, like that was kind of our answer to a kind of a joint prayer was like, it's not going to matter. Like it just, doesn't matter which way you go with this. ⁓ for the things that are truly important, it's not going to matter what you do.   The Dental A Team (41:35) Agreed.   Hunter Bennett (41:46) And so we, we, we decided to do the deal and I will say, like I said, the first six months were rough, but to the credit of my, company, like the group that I'm with, like our team and the people that we work with, they're phenomenal. Like I've never like had a, they, they just always bend over backward to accommodate us and help us. And we've done our part. We've grown like crazy, you know, are there times where I'm like, man, we could have done this on our own and, ⁓ our   The Dental A Team (42:06) Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (42:12) whatever, you know, and you look at your paycheck now because now I'm paid on a percentage and I have equity in the company. And so you're just waiting on a recap. And that's a whole, again, talking about, we can get into this too is DSOs have so many different types of structures. Ours is not like a joint venture. So we don't, we don't profit share in ours. It's all in our equity. so equity events are like super important for us. and so Scotty Hudson Smith is our CEO and he's the one that did smile docs. they, he's done it three times.   The Dental A Team (42:21) Yep.   They are.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (42:41) He came to our dinner like the night that they were recruiting us and he wasn't officially the CEO yet But like he was sliding in that role. It just hadn't been announced I think it was like the next week or something, but he came and he just sort of created the vision for us and we just honestly we a little bit of a feeling and sort of that answer like it's not gonna matter and Now looking back Are there days that are where I have resented like seeing what I produce versus what I take home sometimes?   But I've got to remember they give you five or six years of your profitability upfront. And I've been able to put all that to work, you know, for the most part, I've done pretty well with that. Like not like home run, like you, you know, it's not like crazy stuff, but it's fine. I'm diversified now. Um, it's not all in my practice, but I do have a bit still in equity quite a bit. we did a 70 30 split. did 70 % cash, 30 % equity in the group. Um, and I just,   The Dental A Team (43:09) Sure.   Sure.   Right.   Nice.   Hunter Bennett (43:36) Some groups will give you flexibility, some won't. That's just the number that we wanted and they agreed to. And looking back, I'm still glad I did it that way. I actually had an opportunity to buy more equity about a year in, which I did. And so I bought more. And so that allowed me to just be a little bit more leveraged into the company.   on a bigger scale, like me and Nate work real hard for each other, but now you just got all these partners that are counting on you. And I think the mojo and the culture in our group is quite good. So.   The Dental A Team (44:04) Yeah, that's it. That's actually really, really good to know because I think so many people wonder about DSOs. And so what did the DSO take off of you guys? Because I know there's some people that get scared of the equity. Like they get scared of equity because some DSOs have actually gone under. And so I actually love to hear that you were a 70-30 split, then you were able to buy in more if you wanted to, because if it goes under, that is your retirement. And so I love that you were able to put money into work so your retirement's not solely like   Hunter Bennett (44:12) Yeah, that's what you asked.   ⁓ Yeah.   The Dental A Team (44:31) vested into this company. I really am big on that when DSOs do purchase, but what did they take off your guys's plates going in as a DSO?   Hunter Bennett (44:31) Totally.   Yeah, sorry, that's what you asked me and I kind of got off track there, but...   The Dental A Team (44:40) That's okay. I wanted   the deal. I wanted the deal. I actually wanted to know that a lot.   Hunter Bennett (44:44) So we skipped to the deal,   but going back, like the thing that they've helped with the most, would say is like, just as an example, like, like, ⁓ there's like this employment tax, you know, that we'd always get these letters about every year with Florida and we'd call them and then I spent an hour on the phone, finally getting to someone. And then I had already canceled it, but then they automatically renewed it for it. And so it's just like, that's like one example, work, workman's comp. ⁓ even just like we had an office book for like policy.   And again, this might speak more to maybe my lack of strong leadership where when a team member says, well, I understand that's the policy, but this is what I have going on. And then when you bend the rules for one person, then it sort of just creates this culture of favoritism. And again, that was probably partly being a new owner and then a people pleaser. and something I've worked on a lot. And again, I'm not the same leader I was even five years ago, you know, four years ago when we sold, but, ⁓ having seen that now they, because there are just   The Dental A Team (45:34) Totally.   Hunter Bennett (45:40) company policies in place. And again, it might be a little maybe feel corporate, but now you sort of see the reason why things are corporate because otherwise people, if you run it like a small business and you do those little things here or there, all it does is create resentment within your team. And so ⁓ I will say just having a really, we've gone through like, man, we hired like two or three different office managers through the company that they helped us hire. And finally we hired internally and she's   The Dental A Team (45:53) Totally.   Hunter Bennett (46:09) man, she's phenomenal. she has just totally, she was at our front desk, she wasn't in dentistry, she came to the front desk and really for first couple of years she was pretty quiet. And then when we interviewed, we're like, we need to interview, are you interested? And she said, yeah, like I would. And she's absolutely just crushing it. And so she is a big reason because we finally, you know, like it's just a good fit for her, you know? And our old office manager is still with us and she's amazing, she's amazing. And she's just so humbly taking the role. She's she's like,   The Dental A Team (46:10) Amazing.   Yeah.   Hunter Bennett (46:37) just want to be in the front and she's the best front office person in the world. You know what I mean? And that's she didn't want to be an office manager and so it's kind of worked itself out and but I don't know if we would have made those decisions without being sort of forced into it with it with our structure in the corporate, you know in the corporate group. If I'm being honest, you know, there's a couple things like we were salary like we just paid our girls salary for example and so there was always sort of this resentment because here it's very seasonal.   The Dental A Team (46:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Totally.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Hunter Bennett (47:06) So during winter, like our population in Naples doubles. And so the girls are working more hours. So they might work 42. I don't know if I should say this is, I guess it doesn't matter because I don't do it anymore, but they might work 42 or 44 hours one week. But in the summer, they're probably working 32, 34, 36. Or I'd just say, go home or whatever. So over the year, it just worked out. so they came to us, like, you can't do that. And so was like, so then we had to switch to hourly, which I really resented in that first six months. I was so mad. But now looking at it, it's actually the   The Dental A Team (47:06) Right.   Right.   You   Hunter Bennett (47:35) It's actually the fair way to do it. You know, it actually makes sense. ⁓ they like our, always get.   The Dental A Team (47:38) It is. So it sounds like you just got a lot of like,   you got like a lot of company backing is what I feel like it is like the structure of a business. Yeah. Yep.   Hunter Bennett (47:44) Totally, it's just more structure, more structure. I didn't have to be the bad guy, I guess. I sort   of get to say that's just how we do it. And so again, I think now, like the older version of Hunter sees that as, well, man, were kind of, you could have been a stronger leader, but I didn't know what I didn't know. ⁓ But now again, too, like looking at it, like this is exactly the path that I'm supposed to be on and it's fine. And truly like...   The Dental A Team (48:01) Totally.   Hunter Bennett (48:11) There's so many reasons to join a DSO. Some people are looking for an exit. Some people are looking for a lifestyle. And for me, it's just worked out that I, don't know what I was looking for besides relief from all the pressure I felt and, um, and it's worked out, you know? And so I still make enough money that I can do the things that I need to do and want to do. And if the equity works out, that's a cherry on top. And if it doesn't like it's okay for right now. And if I want to do something later,   I can do something else, you know, and that's the other thing too, like with, with the DSO is if, if you want to leave at some point you can. And I don't really have plans to leave per se, but like I, now it's an option. Whereas if I own the practice, that was one reason too, with me and Nate, who part of our thought process was, well, we're from the West in 10 years. If we want to sell in 10 years, who's going to buy us? Are we going to wait 10 years? Why don't we just do it now and grow with the DSO? So that was a big part of it too, is like, what is our exit? And so even though I'm only, I'm not, I'm 40 next year.   The Dental A Team (48:38) can.   Totally.   Hunter Bennett (49:08) I still was sort of planning an exit at some point because the practice was so big and we couldn't find a partner. So maybe that gives some insights retrospectively into our thought process because we did the same conversation every day for six months. But looking at it now, like that's what they've taken off our plate is all those little nuances that are just so mentally exhausting that now when I come home, I can just be present with my kids. I've changed my schedule. Like it's totally benefited my life.   The Dental A Team (49:14) Totally.   Hahaha!   Hunter Bennett (49:38) Lifestyle wise but it's not perfect but I would say an overall net positive, you know If you're not just looking at money, you know If you're not just looking at your month to month income I would say that's like the only downside is I don't make as much money as I used to but my lifestyle is way better so   The Dental A Team (49:43) That's amazing. Sure.   And so we traded a few things, but who knows it can pan out as well to where you actually make more in the future. That's not a given, but like today you're at least in a good space. You've traded ⁓ like money for time. And I think that that's one of the most beautiful things, which ties to, as we like quickly wrap up. I love that you just talked about all the pieces of DSO. I love that you have a great experience. I love hearing the pieces that they were able to take and agreed a lot of businesses actually need to sell to a DSO because they've grown too big that there's not a buyer for them. And like that is   Hunter Bennett (49:57) Yeah. Good.   Yeah.   The

Tiff and Kristy go into the DNA of an effective leader. These are the common traits that Dental A-Team has seen from the top dental practices, with Tiff and Kristy breaking down how exactly these leaders were able to cultivate such characteristics. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Awesome. Hello, everyone. Dental A Team listeners, thank you so much for being here. I had the pleasure of having an email exchange with a really, really well-rounded office manager, regional manager. And anyways, my point was that she mentioned that she is an avid Dental A Team listener, and she has been for many years. And it was just so special to hear that and to have this email thread with her and to hear how much it has impacted her   professional life and I just wanted to give a massive shout out that came up this morning and I wanted to just thank you guys for being here because as much as this may impact your life and and hopefully add value to your systems, your practice, whether you're a dentist, whether you're a team member, office manager, and you know what I mean we've worked with CPAs, we've worked with chiropractors, we've worked with eye doctors.   anyone who's here listening, you found value in this and you continue to come back or if this is your first time, welcome. And I just want to give a massive shout out to you guys and a thank you for supporting our team and our company through the podcast. We love being here and we love what we get to do with you guys every single day. So massive shout outs and welcome to today. I have the beautiful pleasure of honestly having a very relaxed and calming   podcasting day and I have Miss Kristy here with me today and Kristy, know I've told you off camera, off mic, ⁓ how relaxing podcasting with you is and truly, truly from the bottom of my heart, you make podcasting very easy and stress free and knowing that we had a few today, really I was like, goodness it's Kristy, because I am just so excited to podcast with you. So Kristy, thank you so much for being here.   and just for being you. You bring a sense of ease, a sense of joy, and a sense of fun to our company as well as a multitude of other things and I value you. So thank you, Kristy. How are you this morning? It's still morning here as we're recording. How are you doing?   DAT Kristy (01:58) doing well and I'm with you Tiff. I mean we don't get to spend a lot of time with each other so whenever we get to spend time even if it's podcasting ⁓ I always enjoy my time with you so yep it's a good morning.   The Dental A Team (02:10) Thank you.   Thank you. I agree. I agree. The sun is shining. It's supposed to be cooling down. So I'll be missing it. But you should be able to enjoy some great Phoenix weather here in the next week and enjoy that pool of yours. And when I get back, we need to set up a coffee date because it just hasn't happened yet. And we need that time together. I'm really excited. In a few weeks, we've got our in-person mastermind that we've got a ton of our doctors.   DAT Kristy (02:27) Yes.   The Dental A Team (02:39) coming out to Phoenix to spend some time with us. And I know I have a few doctors, you have a few doctors that are coming. Each consultant has quite a few actually offices that are joining us. We're just super, super excited to host everyone here in Phoenix. I am, my clients, my clients know who they are. They are near and dear to my heart. They are some of my closest friends in my life. And I have a couple coming that I am so excited for you guys to meet.   And one of them is just so special and she knows who she is and I'm just giving her massive hugs and massive shout outs. She is such a supporter of everything we do. She's a supporter of me as a human and you know, I just am so excited for you to meet her, Kristy. So I wanted to just shout that out and let everybody know what's coming up in our lives. We've got a lot of Dental A Team fun happening and part of that is this.   course this mastermind that we've got coming up and the things that follow it that go along with that. mean we've got every month we have our doctors only mastermind for our clients and most of what we do is center focused around really truly building leaders and ⁓ within that I think I think something I tell my clients and my teams especially my teams when I'm working with teams is our goal is to create ease efficiency and joy.   in your jobs. No matter what your job is, no matter what your position you hold in the practice is, I want you to love going to do that every single day or at least I say like 95 % of the time there's going to be those days where you're like heck no Tiff I don't want to do this. But a lot of that comes down to I think effective leadership and being able to create a practice that works for you, a business that works for you instead of you working for the business, meaning it's just like gosh I'm exhausted every day and   Will this ever end? And new doctors, it does end. Okay, but not yet. Don't get too hasty. You gotta put your time in. You gotta do your time. But it does end. And Kristy, I think a lot of that, and something you're fantastic at, I've watched you do this with doctors. I've watched you do this with startup doctors. They know who they are. They're here listening too. And I've watched you do this with doctors who have been in practice for 10 years plus. You build incredible leadership.   through really solid systems and efficiency and culture and team. Kristy, my biggest question to you, I told you I was going to ask you this kind of defining question. When you think of a leader, when you think of a practice leader, a dentist leader, an office manager, and anyone who is deemed a leader or wants to be, what kind of characteristics do you think of within that person that either they innately have or can be developed?   DAT Kristy (05:27) You're going deep today, huh? ⁓ Yeah, I think number one, compassion because   The Dental A Team (05:30) I am, yeah. I don't know what's up today, but I am. It's in me.   DAT Kristy (05:44) With leadership, I think we owe it to our people to be brutally honest in a way, but do it in a compassionate way, if you will. the ability to be honest and share from that space of, want to better this person or I want to grow this person versus coming from a place of criticism.   You know what I mean? Because you and I have talked about this before. I don't think anybody walks into a job on any given day saying, I'm going to make it heck today. I'm just going to come in and raise havoc. And I don't think anybody intentionally does that. And so having a leader that can come from a compassionate space and understand that people really are trying to do well and be able to deliver from that space.   The Dental A Team (06:43) Yeah, I totally agree with you. think compassion's a fantastic word there. And ⁓ the way you described it, I think, defines that really clearly. Because I do think there's just so much confusion wrapped up in empathy, sympathy, compassion, being nice. And I think a leader is everything, is all of those pieces. But well-rounded and doesn't get lost in them is, I think, a good thing to say there. ⁓   They're all fantastic characteristics, but being able to navigate that and being able to navigate ⁓ clear and kind, like I really, I really truly love looking at the difference between kind and nice. And I think, you know, nice, even when you say like, ⁓ nice, it doesn't feel in your body as good as kind does. And when someone can be clear and kind, that's that compassionate side of I'm here with you.   And I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you the way I'm going to show you the way. Right. And when we get off track, we're going to do it together. And I'm going to tell you when we get off track, when you're off track, when, things aren't being met, when the accountability needs to be put into place, I'm going to do that for you because that's kindness. I think a lot of leaders shy away from that because they want to be nice. They don't want to hurt feelings. They don't want to make someone feel like they're not a good team member or they're not doing a good job because they are doing a good job. They're just doing something that needs adjusting.   And I know Kristy, you've had these conversations too. I've listened to you have them with doctors and office managers of the not saying something to someone holding back information and holding back what could inspire them or just make them a better manager and leader is actually hurting the other person. So where we're trying to be nice and save their feelings, we're actually making it way worse and we're doing damage.   to the human, the person, and that think, Kristy, is where that compassionate side comes into play of compassionate kindness, of that joint. always say, ⁓ use words like I'm partnering with you, and can I partner with you in this? Are you open to me giving some feedback here? You really lay it out very well where it's open and, again, compassionate and kind. And Kristy, I think you do a great job with that.   How do you help to coach leaders and doctors to have those conversations and with verbiage like that? What are your biggest suggestions that even if somebody could take one thing away from today, maybe it's a suggestion of a hard conversation. ⁓ How do you suggest to your doctors and your clients how they can do that?   DAT Kristy (09:25) Yeah, I think there's a few things, Tiff. Honestly, in onboarding new people, I love to have the conversation before it even needs to happen. with new employees just opening the door that, hey, there's going to come a time when we have to address a few things. So finding out what their style is for addressing and always trying to accommodate in that way, I mean, you don't   always have the room to do that. But if I can find out, hey, there's going to come a time when we have to have a conversation, what is the best way to address you? How do you prefer me to approach you in those situations, first and foremost? And that obviously works well for new team members. But as we're learning leadership, we might not have all new team members. So coming into it,   for our existing team members just being vulnerable and honest and saying, hey, I'm looking to grow my leadership skills too, right? And so I may not always hit the mark, but I wanna open the door for honest open communication. And so just like what you said, asking permission and ⁓ I guess with that too is in that approach, always trying to make it from my point of view.   You know, maybe referring back to a situation and being able to address it like, hey, you know, I need to clear the air. And earlier when you were talking about the story I'm telling myself is, I'm sure, you know, that may not have been your intent and that's why I wanna open this space for communication. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (11:17) Yeah, that's beautiful.   That's beautiful. And what that leads into is kind of our next chapter of this whole podcast. And it so succinctly goes together because that communication that you just gave and that openness. I always think of when I when I hear you speak and when I hear you speak of ⁓ verbiage to be able to use like this, I think of you said vulnerable and I think vulnerable for sure. We're open, we're vulnerable, we're honest. But I think you also bring a sense of ⁓   like humility and humbleness to the conversation. And when a leader and a doctor or anyone who an established team member who's been there for a while can be humble and say, you know what, don't know everything and I am growing and learning because I'm a human and we're doing that in every space of our life. Who I am today as a mom, who I am today as a girlfriend, as a best friend, as a friend, a coworker, who I am today is different.   than even two weeks ago, right? We're constantly changing. So being able to be humble allows the space for the other person, for the other, and when you're a dentist and leader or office manager, having these conversations with the team, either individually or open forum, like allows them the space to know. They don't have to know it all either. And they can be in the space of learning and they can ask questions. So.   Kristy, think one of the biggest things we get asked, well, number one thing we get asked when people call in and say, Dental A Team, please help fix my family, is systems, right? And I was actually in a practice yesterday with our consultant Trish, and it was so much fun. And we did the team meeting, and one of the things I said to the whole team was, listen, everybody says we need systems. We need systems implemented. And I'm like, for sure, you need systems.   But systems without communication and without leadership, you already have systems. You know why they're not working, why they're quote unquote broken. You have systems. You're doing a lot of the things I'm going to tell you to do. You're just not doing them consistently and you're not talking about it. So if we can fix the communication and really bring that sense of humbleness, think what you've done there, Kristy, with that conversation that I hope people will take away and go spread is you have inspired.   a culture of positivity. Because whenever we're in a space, we've hired consultants, we have people on our, we have team members on our team right now that have said, I have never worked in a place that I didn't feel like I had to know everything. And when I didn't know a thing, I was scared to say it and I had to like go find it on my own. So we're like behind the scenes trying to track down information and hoping we're right. I remember in my dental practice,   Kiera talks all the time about how she didn't know the definition. She didn't know what KPI stood for, right? She knew it was important. She didn't know what the actual acronym meant. I only knew, and I tell her this all the time, I only knew what KPI stood for because when I became a leader in my dental practice, the office manager wanted me to come into the KPI meetings. And I was like, yeah, of course, I'll be there. Sure thing, no worries. Meanwhile, I'm over here Googling. What the heck is a KPI meeting?   I had no idea, but I also wasn't comfortable enough to be like, yeah, sure, whatever you want. What does that mean? How do I show up? What do I bring? How can I be valuable to that meeting? I Googled it, and then I sat there like, none of this makes sense. I sat in those meetings with the CPA, and I'm just like, I am not, I'm not the same as you guys, and I feel so small right now. But I was not in ⁓ an environment at that time that felt, and it wasn't because,   DAT Kristy (14:34) you   The Dental A Team (15:03) she wasn't supportive or helpful, I just didn't feel seen, heard, and ⁓ like I could be vulnerable, right? I had to just be, you had to put on a face and you had to do the thing. And I think, Kristy, what you've done with that communication is you've opened up space for the culture to really be what our clients are constantly asking for. They're always asking, Tiff, how do I fix the culture, right, Kristy?   Help me fix my culture. How do I get my team engaged? And it's like, you just did it with one sentence, right? Have you seen that, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (15:36) Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ It's communication out of the gate. I don't know the exact statistic, you may know a little better than me, but I know it's up in the high 90 % that all communication is misunderstood just out of the gate. So we already have that going against us. Anything we can do to help open that door and create that safe space. And again,   I guess my biggest thing, if you kind of said, if there was one takeaway, don't ever start a sentence with why. Don't ever start a sentence with why because you'll automatically put them on the defense. Maybe asking a question of, you share with me how you came to this decision or not, why did you do this?   The Dental A Team (16:17) I totally agree.   Yeah, yeah. think a lot of communication starts that way. And I think I try to encourage teams in general, people, when I go into practices and I'm having these meetings and I'm having similar conversations of teaching even just a full team how to communicate together, I actually try to encourage them to stop considering that they're two different people in their lives. Because we think   I'm at work, I have to be this person at work, but at home, like, are you saying if you were to go to your husband or your kid, like, I think of Brody, my 17 year old son, and for those of you who have been listening for a long time, he's 17 now, yes. But I think like, if I came to him and I was like, why did you do it like this? He'd be like, well, why wouldn't I have? And I'm like, well, that's not, like, I actually needed to know why you did it this way. And he's like, well, why are you asking, right? It would just be this like back and forth.   But instead, come almost like I tell people, think about how to get around it. The why this hard statement is the rock in between you guys. And if you try to push through that rock in the middle, you're not going to get anywhere. I massively hurt my wrist one time trying to move this rock that did not look as heavy as it was for years. My wrist hurt. That's what you're doing. But walking around that rock, walking around that boulder and saying,   I actually really want to understand because sometimes, Ray, I tell practices, if you don't agree with what I'm saying that we need to implement, like tell me because I could be wrong. I might not know your practice as well as I think I do and we need to talk through it. And that's the same thing. Like maybe we got a different result than we wanted, but I need to know how you got there because number one, if you use the system that's in place, it's broken. Number two, if we didn't use the system, we needed to know.   what we did use, right? So I think that's brilliant, Kristy, and really just a way to like get around that issue that's in the middle and keep defenses down.   DAT Kristy (18:27) for sure. Another technique that I've used before and especially from leaders is make sure you keep speaking to the results you're looking for. It's painting the clarity for the person on the other end. What's the end result? What are we trying to achieve here that we're missing the mark? You know, another great thing is being able to state the behavior that you are seeing now, maybe even what it's causing.   You know, for instance, when you are in morning huddle and you go, what about, you know, can you see how that maybe drags everybody down and moving forward, stating the behavior you want to see moving forward? It's OK if you feel that way. But can you refrain from saying it in front of everybody? And you and I have a conversation on the side, you know. So again, it's what's the behavior today that's happening that   isn't so favorable, what's the result we want to see and speaking to that versus the person.   The Dental A Team (19:30) I love that. And again, that is like infusing the care into the person and the situation. But like I want I want you to be looked at as a leader in your position. And I know, just from my own experience, when you do come to the table that way, people actually like the people lose trust in you, you lose value, right. And so I do agree being able to show up. And I think the flip side to all of this that I   of thought of while you were saying that piece, because that's massive, is being able to show up how you want others to and then backing this up. So there's a difference in having this conversation and just being like, cool, had the conversation, Kristy. My team didn't do anything about it. They don't care. They're not changing. And then having the conversation and walking the walk, backing it up and continuing. know, Kristy, you probably get asked this a lot too.   DAT Kristy (20:03) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (20:26) They're like, well, how many times do I have to say it? They're not listening. And I'm like, they are, but they've been, if you're working with a team that's established, right, even established with you, they've been down a road already. So we're retraining behaviors and habits. But the only way to do that is by continuing to show up how you want them to show up. You can't tell someone, I can't tell Brody to do this thing. But if I do it, if I.   If I show him and care and love him enough to show him how to behave and how to be in the world, he mimics that, right? We are all just mirroring each other. We are literally duplicating and repeating what we're seeing. So if your team, this one's a hard truth, this just popped in, but if your team, you're like, my team sucks, be like,   Actually, you know what? Maybe I should look in the mirror and reflect to myself because if I look at my actions, I were mirroring myself and watching myself, how would I show up? Because if you're not walking that walk and you're like, yeah, sweet, vulnerable, humble, come tell me, and then somebody has a conversation with you and you're like, well, this is why, let me tell you why. Guess what you're gonna get when you say, why did this happen? You're gonna get the same behavior, right, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (21:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, 100%. You know me and my analogies, but we literally are a product of what we live, right? We learn what we live. And so if we're always coming from that critical spirit, we're going to get more of that, you know? So coming from that space of ⁓ understanding, right, versus criticism. ⁓ And to your point, it's coming full circle again.   A lot of times we don't lean into those difficult conversations and those literally are so powerful. Like really that's where our growth comes and I challenge people to see them as a caring conversation versus a negative conversation if you will. ⁓ Really our growth comes from that and not addressing it is also validating the behaviors.   The Dental A Team (22:34) totally agree.   Totally agree with you. That is, drop the mic right there. I totally agree. And that's that nice space, right? Where we're like, well, I don't want to make them feel bad. Well, you just told them it was okay what they're doing then. So either you have to get over that and be okay with whatever it is. You can no longer hold it against them. And it has become a standard of okayness or you have that conversation. Those are the only two options. That is a.   do or die, like only two options. You cannot personally or professionally continue to hold something against someone if you're not willing to help to change that behavior.   DAT Kristy (23:16) Yeah, and you know, with that tip, I would say I was in that space too, when I was learning, learning to be a leader, because yes, we all have innate characteristics that can guide us to being a leader, but it is a muscle that has to be developed and leaning into those conversations had made me a better leader. But also, I would say having a mentor.   or a coach like us to practice the conversations can be very helpful. Before you get into those conversations, I tell my doctors that all the time. mean, think of professional football teams or baseball or whatever. I always say, how much time do they spend practicing versus how much time do they play on the field? And how often do we practice having hard conversations?   The Dental A Team (23:47) Totally.   Yeah.   Totally. I agree.   Mm-hmm. I totally agree with you and I tell leaders all the time practice at home. I have thank the Lord he blessed me with Brody I have practiced so much communication on him and watched how it's molded him and been like, okay or watched his Reactions or just how a situation altered based on my communication and been like, okay Well, that was a misstep because I think our kids will always tell us ⁓ and it's just it's   DAT Kristy (24:13) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (24:35) training and teaching and guiding them to. So practice on your family. Tell your family, I'm going to practice this. Tell your husband, tell your wife. I don't care. But I do. I totally agree with you. Practice is key. And I think effective leadership and dentistry comes down to being able to have those conversations and being able to back it up. And if you're trying to create a great culture, you're trying to get your team engaged, this is the way to do it. And like Kristy said, you don't have to do it alone.   DAT Kristy (24:41) You   The Dental A Team (25:03) You never do. You never have to do it alone ever. We are always here. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You guys know that. You've listened to this a million times, but also if you're a client, reach out to your consultant. ⁓ And if you're a future client, like reach out to us. We are here. We're here to have the conversations and we know that you can do it. This is how you inspire culture. So my auction item, Kristy, I think for everyone is to take a look at their leadership style, at the things that are maybe driving you crazy.   DAT Kristy (25:03) Mm-mm.   The Dental A Team (25:33) ⁓ that you feel like you're hitting a wall or maybe your team just isn't right where you want them to be. And then just have a moment of self-actualization and really look at what's creating that. And is there something that you can do differently as a leader that could get a different result? Because that's how you're going to inspire a team to be solution oriented as well. So Kristy, this was beautiful. I hope everyone enjoyed this deep dive of communication and effective leadership conversation. Thank you so much, Kristy, for your amazing   words, you really do handle communication in a way that a lot of people don't yet know how to. So thank you for sharing that wisdom with us today. Everyone, go drop us a review. You know I love to say that, but I really do mean it. And five stars are always fantastic, but really, truly just tell us what worked best for you. If there's anything that you've done that's working, people really do read those reviews.   DAT Kristy (26:13) You're welcome.   The Dental A Team (26:28) drop some information in there as well. And then as always reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. are here to serve and help you, whether it's through leadership, whether it's through systems that is leadership or really just finding those spaces that are overlooked. I know when we were in a practice yesterday, we found just like the easiest, most simple, low hanging fruit possible to make a massive difference. And the office manager said, how did you like that is, I can't believe I didn't think of that. And I said, you know what?   You're here every single day. You're in it. You're in the thick of it. You're in the weeds. You're busy. This is why we exist, is to be able to come in and see areas that are unnoticed that could make a massive, massive difference. So reach out. We are here for you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And we cannot wait to meet you. Thanks, guys.  

Can we resolve the crisis in cosmology? Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-host Matt Kirshen take on Hubble Tension, the difference between the estimated ages of the universe, and how to solve it with legendary astronomer Wendy Freedman.NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://startalkmedia.com/show/solving-the-crisis-in-cosmology-with-wendy-freedman/Thanks to our Patrons Smallevent, Ralph, Arun, Pandey, Nick Ohlheiser, Dantheman, Brian Campana, Mel, Micheal TRilling, Daniel Arvizu, James, Lily Morant, Jon Githrex, Daniel Frank, Gini Kramer, Opal Lehman, M M, pheobekate, Najwa DeForest, Kyle, Mama M, Jerome Cameron, Charles, David "Kiwi" Keller, Scott Chaddon, Erin T, Quin Shimamura, Wilma, Jerry the Epicurean, Matt Brady, loreen spchler, AlexK89, Eric Lee, Mantautas Jokubenas, Dustin, Regina Rhew Hoilman, Professional Dave, Nicholas Hayes, Joe White, Eddie Olsson, Amanda Granberry, Gloria Askin, Crimson Blaze, Steven Banker, Chris Washington, Ethan, oliver cooke, Terrence Sauvain, Maurice van der Linden, Yesking, joe vaughn, Micheal Wilson, Daaku, Espen Sande Larsen, Deepanshu Biniwale, Alexis Barrera, Kalie Pillar, ConcernedOnlooker, Margaret, Vinay Murthy, Finesse TheGod, Fraser PArk Vlad, AdamJ, Alexander Verharen, Susan Soard, Pete, Jaidyn Janis, Joe, AndyL, and Paul Williams for supporting us this week. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of StarTalk Radio ad-free and a whole week early.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Contributor: Aaron Lessen, MD Educational Pearls: What is a Nursemaid's Elbow? A condition in which an elbow gets partially pulled out of place (a radial head subluxation) Usually happens in kids under 5 because the ligaments around their elbow are still loose. A common situation is when an adult pulls a child up by the hand or swings them by the arms. The sudden tug causes the radius to slip out of its normal spot at the elbow joint. How are they identified? These don't normally need an xray The child will often hold their arm close to their side and refuse to use it There's usually no swelling or obvious deformity. Treatment? Reduce the radial head subluxation. There are two possible techniques: Flexion and supination. Start with the arm extended and pronated. Then supinate the forearm. Then bend the elbow up all the way. Hyper-pronation. One hand stabilizes just above the child's elbow, the other holds the wrist. Start with the arm extended. Hyperpronate the forearm. Listen/feel for a click The child is normally back to normal quickly, if not get the xray Which is better? Hyperpronation (Aksel, 2025) 10% first attempt failure rate Flexion-pronation has a 25% first attempt failure rate References Aksel G, Küka B, İslam MM, Demirkapı F, Öztürk İ, İşlek OM, Ademoğlu E, Eroğlu SE, Satıcı MO, Özdemir S. Comparison of supination/flexion maneuver to hyperpronation maneuver in the reduction of radial head subluxations: A randomized clinical trial. Am J Emerg Med. 2025 Feb;88:29-33. doi: 10.1016/j.ajem.2024.11.026. Epub 2024 Nov 18. PMID: 39579408. Ulici A, Herdea A, Carp M, Nahoi CA, Tevanov I. Nursemaid's Elbow - Supination-flexion Technique Versus Hyperpronation/forced Pronation: Randomized Clinical Study. Indian J Orthop. 2019 Jan-Feb;53(1):117-121. doi: 10.4103/ortho.IJOrtho_442_17. PMID: 30905991; PMCID: PMC6394198. Summarized by Jeffrey Olson, MS4 | Edited by Jeffrey Olson and Jorge Chalit, OMS4 Donate: https://emergencymedicalminute.org/donate/

Neem de Metro, mama! (Cox/Klaris) Gerard Cox en Joke Bruijs 3'26 Single eigen beheer Ben je in Rotterdam geboren (W. van Hemert/J. de Leur) Gerard Cox 3'47 Single eigen beheer De laaielichter (McLellan/Cox) Gerard Cox 3'38 Van de LP Aangenaam EMI 12 74141 De tijd van de kersen (Renard/Clement/Wilmink) Gerard Cox 2'51 Van de LP Ik heb u lief mijn Nederlands Ariola 301.327 Kinderliedje (Mann/Groot/Van Empelen) Joke Bruijs 5'16 Eigen opname De Ballade van het wonderorgel (J. van de Merwe) Gerard Cox 8'20 Eigen opname Hoe lang nog liefje (Nicodem/Cox) Gerard Cox 4'13 Van de LP Aangenaam EMI 12 74141 De jokers (Bakker/Nicodem) Joke Bruijs 2'36 Van de cd Van de gekken MM 565 107-2 Ik ben een bouwer (De Wijs/Stokkermans) Gerard Cox 2'58 Van de Lp Fien Polydor 2925 140 Op 'n hoge zwarte fiets (B. Nicodem/G. Cox) Gerard Cox 2'55 Van de cd Balans EMI 7912012 Mijn man zaliger (Klöters) Joke Bruijs 4'36 Van geluidscassete VDQS Kaltes Grauen Samen op de Charloise Lagedijk (Croce/Cox) Gerard Cox en Joke Bruijs 2'25 Van de cd Rotterdam 1990 EMI 7936672

In business and in sales, the future is changing faster than most can keep up. AI isn't just a buzzword anymore. It's transforming how deals are made and how teams operate. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Steve Trang of ObjectionProof.ai to explore how AI sales reps can book appointments, review calls, and follow up with leads instantly, what this means for property management entrepreneurs, and why learning to leverage AI now is critical to staying competitive. You'll Learn [01:24] The AI Revolution [11:11] AI Sales Reps [17:39] The Future of AI in Sales [27:31] The Importance of Asking Good Questions [34:49] Setting Impossible Goals to Grow Faster Quotables “I'm not here to say your job is at stake, but you should operate as if it is—because if you're not, you're going to get replaced.” “The version of AI today is the worst version you'll ever deal with—because it's only getting better.” “AI can instantly—99.9% uptime—call the prospect, ask questions, and book an appointment for you or your salesperson to actually run the sales process.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (00:00) We are building out an AI agent that can actually run sales.   call the prospect, ask questions, book an appointment.   for you,   so it actually sounds like you're having a conversation with another human being.   Jason Hull (00:14) All right, I am Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing.   increase profit and simplify operations and build and replace teams. We are like bar rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway.   to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. All right, my guest today is Steve Trang of objectionproof.ai, and we're gonna be talking about, I guess, the future.   Does that sound about right?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (01:36) Yeah, I would say that's very, very relevant, even more acutely today than normal. Yes.   Jason Hull (01:42) So we are in the middle of this insane AI revolution. know, AI is taking over quickly. Everybody's talking about all the jobs that are going to go away. Everybody's playing with chat GPT. It's becoming like their second brain. We're all maybe getting a little dumber because of it. Who knows? But we're also getting more more capabilities.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (01:59) Yeah.   Jason Hull (02:03) It's all speeding up so quickly even before we started. I'm like, I just tried this tool and you're like, have you heard of this tool? And like, there's just so many tools out there. before we get into all that, Steve, tell us a little bit, give us a little background on you as an entrepreneur and how you kind of got into entrepreneurism and what led to objection proof.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (02:26) Yeah, so it's going to be a long, secretive road because I got into real estate in 2005. So, you know, I did the good, you know, the, the get good grades so can get a good job deal. Right. I all that. was an engineer. I worked at Intel. and I realized fairly quickly, I wasn't manageable. And so, I had to, I had to find something else where I could work for myself. I read rich dad, poor dad from that. It's like, I got to do real estate, but.   I didn't take the advice quite right because I became a realtor in 07, not a good time. So that was a major, major humbling experience. I did some short sales, which are relevant again today. I a list of properties for banks, eventually started my own brokerage. You know, when the bank, when the foreclosure started dying down, became, my own brokerage. Did pretty well. had almost 1 % or we had 1 % market share for a very, short period of time. In the Phoenix market, one of every 100 transactions went through our brokerage.   then, I started buying houses, cash started wholesaling, did some flipping, started a podcast disruptors, which is where most people know me from. And then along the way I started a sales training program, started a title company, did some mortgage joint ventures. and then where we are today is AI. I probably sound very ADHD. I promise you, I don't have it.   I'm just always chasing the next object, which is very much a symptom of ADHD. But I can sit down and focus for long periods of time. It's just that I'm an entrepreneur, I started out as entrepreneur, and it wasn't until the last two, three years that I've actually learned how to actually sit down and focus. So that's how we got here.   Jason Hull (03:58) Okay, yeah.   All right, cool. So now that you know how to focus, what are you focused on?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (04:05) Our focus is at this point more than half of my work schedule, which is more than 50 hours a week, right? It's probably like 60 or 70, is on AI. And the reason why is because things are changing so fast and the things we're trying to do are so innovative. And everyone says that, right? But like We are building out an AI agent that can actually run sales.   And so that is something that a lot of people have promised is something we're actually doing. Now, it's not going to buy a house. Is that going to convince a landlord to allow you to do property management? You're still going to have to do the heavy lifting. But what it can do is initiate the conversation, right? So if someone fills out a form, AI can instantly, 99.9 % uptime, right, because it's all technology now, call the prospect, ask questions, book an appointment.   for you, the business owner or salesperson, to actually run your sales process. So we can actually book appointments. It sounds real. You can't tell it's AI. Well, if you're really, really deep in the AI world, you could probably tell it's AI. But most people can't tell it's AI. And so it actually sounds like you're having a conversation with another human being. And it took a lot of effort to make that happen.   Jason Hull (05:22) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (05:23) So that's where a core, a very, very heavy percentage of our detention is today.   Jason Hull (05:28) Got it. Yeah. I've started playing around with it. I haven't pulled the trigger to actually have AI agents calling or cold calling my prospects. I'm a little nervous about doing that.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (05:36) Mm-hmm.   It's a there's there's elements of leap of faith, right? But you can also test it. You know, we have a if you want to, you know, give it out, we have like a way to opt in for AI to call you so you can hear for yourself what it sounds like. It's not perfect, right? Like the we launched it on August 1st to all our existing clients. So, you know, not that long ago. ⁓ And we're learning about bugs that we weren't aware existed as we're testing it.   Jason Hull (05:59) Yeah.   Yeah.   Right. Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (06:06) because that's how new this is, right? So we're still iterating   and getting better all the time.   Jason Hull (06:10) Yeah, got it. OK, cool. Well, that's that's the future. I mean, the amazing thing is. I just signed up for an AI tool like this last weekend and they had this chat bot on the home page that you click talk and it's like a voice, it talks to you and it can hear you talk and it was in the voice of one of the principals of the company. And it was like really good. I don't know if they use 11 labs to do the voice or whatever.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (06:29) Yeah.   Right.   Mm-hmm. It's probably   11 labs, so that would be my guess.   Jason Hull (06:40) But   yeah, it was like his voice and I could ask it anything. I was asking like, it do AI, like can it do API integrations with HubSpot and how would it connect to this? And it was like giving me, yeah, you could do this and this is how it would work and this way. And I was like, there was no question I could ask it, it didn't know. And it knew everything about the tool. I could ask all sorts of questions about its capabilities and it's like, nope, we don't have that functionality but you could do it this way. And I was like, I was like.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (06:53) All right.   Jason Hull (07:07) I felt like it knew more than any salesperson at their company I could have talked to.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (07:12) Oh, 100%. Yeah.   Jason Hull (07:14) And so I was really blown away. was like, I I spend hours asking questions because they had, it was like, you have to pay for the year for this tool, right? So I was like, I'm not going to pay for the year for a tool. If I don't know, like I can't trial it or anything. So I was like, I'm asking every question and because it could answer every question I could throw at it with ease. I got all my answers asked and nobody there had to spend any human labor time to talk to me. And I signed up.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (07:22) Yeah. ⁓   Jason Hull (07:42) It was pretty wild. And I'm like, wait a second, could I do this? Can my clients do this? Yeah. But yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (07:48) ⁓ You can answer   all the questions. That's not a sales thing, right? Because we have a philosophy that sales is an emotional process, not logical process. So it can answer all the questions. It can remove a lot of the obstacles. But someone still needs to either sell a story or a dream. Or our philosophy is can we ask Jason enough questions.   Jason Hull (07:55) Yes.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (08:09) where Jason can formulate his own dream and decide to purchase himself. Because the thing we talk about is we don't sell. We get prospects to sell themselves. And so the one thing that AI cannot do just yet is to get you to sell yourself so that you're willing to sign a contract or pull out a credit card. The thing about entrepreneurs, business owners, and salespeople, the reason why we're such great buyers is because we tell ourselves great stories.   Jason Hull (08:18) Yes, totally true.   Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (08:34) The   general public is not as good at telling ourselves as great as stories. And so they don't need someone to facilitate that conversation to get them to pull the trigger.   Jason Hull (08:42) you   Yeah, I've really followed Jeremy Miner's kind of new model of selling sort of formula is NEPQ stuff. And because I noticed sales was getting harder and harder, like people didn't trust. And we're like in this post trust era, nobody trusts anything anymore. so, you know, everything's fake. Like is everybody's perception, especially since the pandemic, everybody got a little bit burned, you know, in the last several years. We're like, everybody's trying to trick us like   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (08:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes.   Exactly.   Mm-hmm.   Everyone has an agenda. Yeah.   Jason Hull (09:10) And nobody has our best interests at heart. Everybody has   an agenda. And I'm actually working on a book right now called the Golden Bridge Formula, which is my philosophy in selling, which is basically if you can showcase how, if I am purely selfish and I'm achieving what I want out of life, I can show how it benefits you, my prospect. And so everybody can trust our motives. If the default assumption in sales is that your motive is to get their money.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (09:19) All right.   are mutually aligned.   Jason Hull (09:34) which is a really crappy sort of motive, right? But I have something I want more than money, right? Which relates to my purpose in life. And so we teach our clients how to build that golden bridge and how to do that. So I think it'll be really interesting to see when people start to build. I think that's the thing is it would take some real intelligence from, you know, a human that understands empathy and understands this.   question-based selling in order to build out AI bots that can do it. Well, I don't know, but we'll see.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (10:04) I would estimate we're probably about 12 months out because we can do it pretty well right now, but we can't do it well with latency and enough information. So like when we're scheduling appointments, like the reason is not to schedule an appointment. There's only a handful of objections, right? But when we're doing real estate,   Jason Hull (10:14) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (10:24) there's a lot more questions that need to be answered. And also there's all sorts of different creative ways we can solve the problem, right? Like, you know, the traditional buying land creatively is like, all right, Jason, look, you can pick price, you can pick timeframe, you can pick payments, but you can't pick all three, right? We're not quite there yet, because the dimensions of how you can negotiate a real estate transaction.   Jason Hull (10:40) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (10:47) It's substantial, right? It could be like, what's most important to them? Is it the depreciation? Is it the tax consequences? Is it the appreciation? Is it the cashflow? Is it I need to hide my taxes, right? Like what is your agenda? And so like AI doesn't have all the information today.   Jason Hull (11:02) Hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (11:04) But I imagine 12 months from now, we can have enough data, can have AI figure all that out.   Jason Hull (11:10) Yeah, I would think so. okay. Well, tell us about objection proof. Like what is it?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (11:17) Okay. So, before we get into that, I've been a sales trainer for more than six years now. So we've been coaching the top, house buyers across the country. You know, I'm in Collector Genius, I'm in boardroom and family mastermind. And so like, I work with the biggest and best operators across the country. And as I was looking at it, we've trained hundreds of sales teams and we've trained thousands of salespeople. And so when we talk about our AI tool, it's really just leveling up what already existed.   Jason Hull (11:29) Mm-hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (11:45) And so earlier this year, we had three different individuals. We Stephanie Biders, the left main, Brad Chandler with Express Home Buyers, and then Casey Ryan, another really successful wholesaler in Vegas. All three of them, in a course of days, pulled me aside and said, hey, Steve, can you create an AI tool that does this? Hey, Steve, can you create an AI tool that does that? And the things they were asking for was an AI tool that can do automatic call reviews.   Right, because there's nothing more frustrating as a business owner than to sit down and listen to call reviews, right? I'd rather cold call than listen to a call review. And so, ⁓ so can you automate the call reviews? Especially if it's bad calls, yes. Right, and so can we automate call reviews? all right, so I set out to figure out how to do that. The other problem was like, how do I know my new salesperson is now ready to take leads I'm paying for?   Jason Hull (12:20) Right.   Right, especially if it's mad calls.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (12:43) You hire a salesperson, you onboard and you train them. When are they actually ready for leads that you're spending three, $400 for? Okay, so let's create a roleplay bot that can measure the quality. And then the last thing is how can we have our salespeople train every day on your ideal sales process? So again, the same idea with a roleplay bot is that you can call it every single day and train on it. So we created that.   Jason Hull (12:44) Right.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (13:12) earlier this year and that's been growing like gangbusters. Right. And then the thing again, we just launched this past week or week and a half now is an AI lead manager, which takes it from like someone that fills out an inquiry on the web form to calling them within seconds, right? To talk to them, to schedule an appointment. And the great thing about AI is that it has zero call reluctance. And I can tell you in my own personal experience as the one that created this tool.   Jason Hull (13:30) Yeah.   Yes.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (13:40) When I built it out, I forgot to iterate, like this is super nerdy stuff, right? But like, hey, call three times and stop, right? But I didn't get the counter right, so it always started zero every time I went through the loop. It called me 15 times in a row before I figured out how to shut it off, right? So it's got zero call reluctance. Oh yeah, if you said it, it'll call you 100 times a row, 1,000 times a row, no fear.   Jason Hull (14:01) It's very persistent, yeah.   Well, you know,   that's super interesting because I saw a video recently from Alex Hermosy and I've worked with him. I've been in masterminds with him and he said that he, one of his partner companies that he invests in, they had a 400 % increase in their close rate just by hiring one person to call every new lead within 60 seconds of the lead coming in. 400 % increase in deals close. And I'm like,   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (14:26) Mm-hm. Yeah. Right.   Jason Hull (14:31) That speed to lead is a significant thing. So I've been thinking about the same exact thing. I'm like, can connect Sinflow to HubSpot or can I do something to get some sort of phone agent to like call a new lead instantly? Because it's really difficult to get my team to do that. They might be in the middle of something. They might be making calls right then, you know? And so, yeah, 60 seconds.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (14:46) They're humans.   They can be at a sales appointment,   they can be in the bathroom, they can be in the car driving back from an appointment. Yeah, exactly.   Jason Hull (14:55) It can be late at night, like when the lead comes in, you know, and I don't know,   maybe somebody's filling out a lead form at one in the morning. I don't know if they'd answer the phone, but like call them and text them an email and maybe something happens. don't know.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (15:08) Exactly. Yeah, so that's the problem we seek to solve and I would say we did a pretty good job of it.   Jason Hull (15:14) Nice. Okay. Very cool. So yeah, super cool. So mean, this is the future and you know, I'm sure now because AI allows us to innovate with AI even faster, like it's, it's snowballing. Like it's just speeding up rapidly. It's like, now you can go to your AI and say, Hey, I want to figure out how to do this, solve this problem. And it's like, here's a bunch of ideas, which like   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (15:25) Mm-hmm. Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Right.   Jason Hull (15:38) Evaluate these ideas which ones are the best ideas and it's like this one will give you the the biggest return, right? Yeah, so it's pretty wild. So I think I did in working on my book over the weekend in a day. I probably did what would have taken 90 days of research in it like It just months of research like   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (15:57) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Yeah,   the time compression is just absolutely outrageous. The amount of time AI can save you is just off the charts. I built out the tool. Now there's Ian Ross from an organization. He's the AI Whisperer. He's been training the AI boss for two years now. But I built everything around it. And if I were to try to do everything I did without AI, three years maybe to get it done, right?   to learn React and SuperBase and all this other stuff, right? To learn how to compress audio files and automatically. And it took me months to get a product. We have, we're looking at, have 130 clients now using our tool. And it's something that started less than six months ago. So yeah, AI is showing you how to use AI.   Jason Hull (16:43) Wow. Yeah.   Yeah, I mean, it's scratching a super strong   niche. Like if you go on Google Trends and put in AI and it like, just watch, it's like nothing and then it's just going crazy and it's surpassing everything right now. So let me share a quick word from our sponsor real quick for this episode. So our sponsor is Cover Pest. Cover Pest is the easy and seamless way to add on demand pest control for your resident benefit package.   Residents love the simplicity of submitting a service request and how affordable it is compared to traditional pest control options. Investors love knowing that their property is kept pest free and property managers love getting their time back and making more revenue per door. Simply put, Cover Pest is the easiest way to handle pest control issues at all of your properties. To learn more and to get special DoorGrow pricing, go to the website coverpest.com slash door grow.   All right, so Steve, let's get back into talking about AI. you know, you're focused on the sales side of things. What do you see as the future of what's gonna be happening with sales and what are your team working on developing next?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (17:57) I mean, the things we're working on next is just getting to the actual sales conversation where, you know, for someone that needs to their house for cash, right, which is our core audience, is how do we get it from beginning of a web form all the way into an actual transaction to actually get assigned a contract? That is going to be the next step. I think we can incorporate transaction management into it.   Right? The goal here is to get to a point where you basically have a handful of salespeople. One person that can handle the acquisitions, the buying of the houses. One person can handle the dispositions. And one person still to really talk to homeowners as scheduled appointments because the reality is AI doesn't replace everybody. AI just makes everybody better. As matter of fact, in half an hour from now, we're actually doing a training internally where our guy Ian, our AI whisperer,   is going to be teaching everyone in our organization prompt engineering. And the reason why that is, is that everyone needs to be using AI. Because if you're not, the amount of productivity everyone in organization, since we started using AI, is at least three times better, at least, if not more. And so every person that's not using AI is expensive now, because their amount of productivity is less than a third of what the other guy who is using AI.   Jason Hull (18:59) Right.   Right. So you could easily 3x the output if you just understand how you can leverage AI in some clever use cases.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (19:18) Exactly. Right. So if you look at that and then the reality is if I can get it down to just the best salespeople in my organization and AI everything else, everyone else that's not using it, their marketing costs, their overhead and everything else is just going to be more than mine to do the same amount of work, which in a very short period of time isn't that big a deal. But if I can reduce my overhead by 10 % compared to you and we're running the same business model.   Next month I have 10 % more to spend on marketing. And the month after that. And month after that. And my sales is only gonna grow. So we're gonna see a time where those that aren't on board are gonna find themselves unable to compete just because of margins alone. We had a, there's a colleague of mine, someone I look up to, I respect a lot. And we had a conversation where she let four people, she let go of four people earlier this year.   Jason Hull (19:50) Right. Yeah. And it compounds.   Right.   to compete, totally.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (20:13) Each person, six figure salary. So, she had to let go four people. And the reason why was that AI can do their job, right?   Jason Hull (20:24) Yeah, I six figure salary is saving like what half a million? Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (20:27) almost half a mil, right? And she's   like, and it sucks because she cares about these people. They've been with her as she built out the company, right? But right now her competition is some kid who lives at home with no expenses. She can't compete with that kid if she has all this expense on her payroll. It sucks. So everyone in our company is going to have to learn how to use AI to do their job more effectively, more efficiently. And so that's, so I would say on top of   Jason Hull (20:31) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (20:54) the sales part is that everyone, everyone is getting looked at. There's a person in organization, I'm like, how are you getting so much done? Because she has stepped up and picked up three other people's in the last year. She picked up three other people's jobs. And then I talked to her last week, like, what are you doing? And she just showed me her chat GPT that's always open. That's it. She's just picking up other people's jobs because she's able to do it all day.   Excelled at using it and I think that's just that's just the future and this is not nothing new that people haven't heard before Really? What I would say is there should be a wake-up call if you're not listening as a matter of fact I had a really uncomfortable conversation last week Because I train acquisition managers, which is sales disposition managers, which is moving the properties Lead managers we were booking the appointments and then sales managers right how to manage sells people get the most out of them the lead manager call I was like, hey look   how many of you guys are paying attention to what I'm saying on social media? And like maybe 10%, 12 % raise their hands. I was like, okay, if you're not paying attention on what on social media, then this needs to be your wake up call. I have created an AA tool that is directly threatening your job. I am training you and I'm also creating a tool that might compete against you, that will probably compete against you. And so the reality is,   Jason Hull (22:08) or real life.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (22:13) A, it's awesome you're on this call, because you're training becoming one of the better ones across the country. And you have to have this mindset that I'm going to be irreplaceable. So you have to be the best, because this is what you're competing against. So I'm not here to say your job is at stake, but you should operate as if it is, because if you're not, you're going to get replaced. That was an uncomfortable conversation.   Jason Hull (22:30) Yeah, it was at least a year ago when AI was   starting to just sort of peak, you know, come up on everybody's radar. I gave my team, heard of, saw Alex Hormozi like give his team the task of like trying to replace themselves with AI. And so I said that to my team and several were so offended. They're like, you trying to replace us? I'm like, but that's reality. So I was like, try it. And I got some like.   of weak responses because they weren't really focused on it. But now I think everybody can see like this is coming and nobody thought that the most expensive jobs would be the first thing to be going. Lawyers, like doctors, like a lot of this a lot of the data, the research, the stuff that takes a lot of knowledge. It's hard to beat something that can pull in everything, you know, and and then really all these specialists that are so specialized in things, they're   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (23:05) No, no one saw that coming.   Jason Hull (23:23) you know, AI is probably going to eat their lunch and then, you know, and then like really high level copywriting jobs, high level graphic design work, like all of this also. And so it really is becoming a future in which those that are the most creative in thought and how to leverage AI, the creators, and they're going to be AI creators that can leverage AI and know what tools.   are available and they're staying up on that. Those are going to be the ones that are the most valuable team members because they have access to infinite knowledge. Knowledge is no longer a super valuable resource. It's, and you can just get it. We've got the internet, there's tons of it out there, but the people that can figure out how do I isolate what knowledge is needed right now? How do I leverage AI to like figure it out? How do I, you know, then feed it into some sort of agentic system or create some sort of agent or some sort of chat or prompt or rule to like,   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (24:00) Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (24:19) you know, get the output that I need. These are the people that are going to, you know, be leading the way. And so it's really interesting.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (24:27) Yeah, the creators.   I've been looking at it. we've been using Working Genius internally as well as for hiring. So if you guys that are listening aren't familiar with it, it's created by Patrick Lancioni who wrote like, what is it? ⁓ Amazing books. was, shoot. Anyway, Patrick Lancioni is an amazing, amazing author, wrote some amazing books.   Jason Hull (24:41) He's written a bunch of good books.   That's that from right here.   I've got, where are they? Let's see.   Oh, he wrote The Motive, Getting Naked, The Ideal Team Player, Five Dysfunctions of a Team, Death by Meeting. Yeah, he's got some great books.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (24:50) The advantage is one of them, but there's like...   by this function as a team, yeah.   Yeah, FIDAS   function seems huge, huge one, right? So he wrote working genius. And working genius breaks down to six letters, right? Widget, which is coincidental, I suppose. So what it stands for is wondering, inventor, galvanizer, discerning, enabler, and tenacity. And so most people are two of them as an energy.   It gives you energy, two of them are like it drains you, right? So like I don't like doing work. So T and E is just that for me, right? But I do like to invent and I like to discern. And then Ian likes to invent and likes to galvanize. But the key here is we're both inventors according to Working Genius. And I think right now in this world with AI, it's going to be the people that have the W, the wondering, the inventiveness. I think those are the two they're going to do the most.   Jason Hull (25:30) you   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (25:49) the most well in this new world because we can automate a lot of other things. We can automate the mundane tasks. That's what the agents are for. So it'll be interesting. AI can discern to some degree. It can't galvanize. So we still need someone to lead the charge and get everyone to storm the.   Jason Hull (26:00) Mm.   Thank   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (26:13) stormed enemy territory. But yeah, I think to your point, the creators, I look at it as everyone that's got the wondering and inventiveness is gonna do really well on this new AI world.   Jason Hull (26:25) Okay, yeah. Those things sound fun to me. That sounds like way more fun to be spending my time on doing those kind of things than most anything else you do in business. And I love that you said, you know, figuring out which things are kind of your, give you energy or take away your energy. So one of the things we have our clients do is we give them a time study that we've created that.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (26:32) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (26:49) They do a time study for like two weeks and they track which things are plus signs or which things are minus signs. Just to figure out, because the easiest way I can get them towards more output or towards more joy or more fulfillment in their business or more freedom or offloading the right stuff is just to figure out which things are their minus signs and which things are tactical so we can get those off their plates so they're focused more on the strategic things and the plus signs, which usually are connected. So for entrepreneurs, yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (26:54) Huge.   Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (27:17) And so, yeah, I think that's going to be the powerful thing is that if people can become conscious of the things that are draining them, then you can just ask the question. You can go ask AI the question, how do I get rid of this? How do get this off my plate? Give me some really good ideas. Yeah. And so we've got this magical thing that it's like we've got the magic genie of answers that can just give us any answer to anything at any time. But you have to ask good questions.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (27:30) All right. It really is that simple these days.   You have to ask good questions, and then the thing that you have to make sure, and I don't know how to do this, is to make sure you don't give up your critical thinking abilities. I think that that muscle is going to atrophy pretty fast in this new world. The ability to actually ask good questions and then filter, is that actually a good answer? Does that make sense? Or are we just accepting the answers? Because you can see, if you just accept things, if you just accept data without questioning it,   Jason Hull (27:56) Mm.   Yeah, it'd be pretty destructive.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (28:08) you're going to atrophy pretty fast, I think, of your critical thinking skills.   Jason Hull (28:11) Yeah. And that's where you hear the horror stories of AI, like people killing themselves because AI told them to, know, stuff like this, where they're just like, they think AI is like, becomes some sort of superpower when it's really just reflecting them. Yeah. It's just reflecting them and their, you know, psychoses, I guess. So I think, yeah, you know, I've noticed that, yeah, sometimes chat GPT, for example, can be very agreeable.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (28:17) Yeah.   It's not all knowing all powerful, it just appears that way.   Yeah, sad.   Jason Hull (28:36) It's like, that's brilliant. You're the best. Like it's giving you compliments. like, yeah. You know, but the reality is, yeah, you have to ask it to challenge you. And you have to like say, what are the flaws in this or what evaluate or, and so I'll have the one AI tool evaluate what another AI tool gives me. I'll say, which of these ideas should I actually do to my offer document or what should I change or what should I improve and which things are not a good idea?   And it rates them for me. Like Claude will be like, this is like, these are the ones you should do. These ones maybe, and these ones definitely don't. I would recommend these. And I'm like, cool, do that. Right? And so, yeah. And so I think we have to, we have to have a brain that's creative enough to see the potential problems and to ask the right questions and to challenge things. because yeah, otherwise you may just   be led down a rabbit hole of your own self-reflection, that's a blind spot.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (29:37) Mm-hmm. It's the same dangers we see with TikTok. It just sends you down the wrong rabbit holes.   Jason Hull (29:43) Right. Because the algorithm is just giving you more of what you look at. you're like, man, I'm really, it's like, you know, that prurient interest where you just can't stop looking at the car crashes that are driving, you know, driving by. then the algorithm's like, cool, they want to see more car crashes. And you're like, wait, why is this awful? Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, that's the difference between AI and real life. so, you talk about creating a self-managing sales team.   What the self-managing sales team because having managing a sales team is pain in the ass.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (30:16) Yeah, so the self-managing sales team, we're using AI to power it. So it still requires a person to actually care about the other salespeople, right? So the big thing is like, what are you meeting with them? Are you finding out what's important to them? What is their big, hairy, audacious goal, right? So that's the first and foremost. We've got to figure out what their big, hairy, audacious goals are. Then we've got to quantify it. How much money do you actually need to make to accomplish that, right? And then we reverse the math, which isn't new, but   Jason Hull (30:17) They can't.   Mm-hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (30:46) The newer wrinkle here is like we got to tie it to the big hair audacious goal. And then we'd look at, right, how many transactions do you need to close? Okay. And then if we need to close as many transactions in the year, then in real estate, how many contracts do we need to go under in order to have that many closings? Right? Because unfortunately it's not a one-to-one. So then how many contracts we have, then how many appointments do we need to run per week to hit that many?   Jason Hull (30:54) Hmm.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (31:15) closings per month. And then we work into how many conversations do we need to have per week to have that many appointments per week. And then in order to have, then we figure out how many conversations we need to have per day. And we back it all the way up, right? And then.   Jason Hull (31:30) So conversations   to appointments to contracts to transactions to hit the B-Hack. Okay, right.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (31:36) Yeah, yes.   It has to work that way. And the sales manager or business owner needs to care about their people to actually care about those goals. Because if you don't care about those goals alongside of them, none of this matters. You got to care about your salespeople, But once they care about our salespeople, now we can use AI to track and hold them accountable to their metrics. And so one of the things that we have is if anyone's off, we can report this.   And you can do this with VA's and systems and this and that. The things that we've added recently with AI is that in our organization, after every single sales call, AI does a call review. And after it does a call review, it pushes it into Google Chat. So we use Google Chat, you can use Slack, you can use Teams, but we use Google Chat. It pushes into Google Chat where all the salespeople are in. And so it says, hey, Steve on this call got a 51 out of 100.   Everyone can see it. There's no hiding. Yeah, and so then after it gives me that review, it gives me the score, it gives me all the reasons why, I need to, as a salesperson, go in there and comment on it. I agree with this, I disagree with this, here's my takeaway from it, here's what I'm gonna work on. So, that's a super tight feedback loop. Now, instead of a call review that happens maybe once a week, or maybe once a month, or never,   Jason Hull (32:33) Yeah,   Right. Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (32:58) our sales guys are being coached in the moment where they're at in real time. Right? So they're self-managed because they have to go and respond to it. And here's the other thing too, like marketing has always been, or marketing should be accountable. you run your business right, we should know, hey, we spent our X dollars on this. How many leads did we get? How many contracts did we get? What was the revenue that came from this lead source for this marketing channel? What is the return on investment or return on ad spend?   Jason Hull (33:03) Yeah, that's great.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (33:25) We can be pretty good with marketing if we care. Accounting, it's really easy to tell when accounting is screwed up. It didn't zero out. Pretty easy to, you know, black and white accounting. Sales has always been leads went in and there's this black box and then contracts came out. We've eliminated that black box, right? Everyone's accountable to everyone else. So if you're in there,   Jason Hull (33:50) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (33:51) And you can see, like you're putting up 50s over and over again out of 100, either you're going to self-select out or you're going to get better. But there's nowhere safe to hide in our sales company anymore. And that's how we created a self-managing sales team. Everyone can hold everyone else accountable. Jason can call Steve out, Steve can call Jason out. Right? So that's how we've had that. And then on top of that, our AI tool also has trends. So we can say like, hey, in the last seven days, here's where Jason's really struggling. Coach him on this. Or in the last 30 days, right? So we have one guy.   His struggle consistently is isolating the real objection. That's one of our guys. The other guy, his challenge consistently is not letting a difficult statement just sit there and just ruminate for like five seconds. We'll all agree, yeah, we gotta let it sit there. So those are two different cells, guys, we have two different challenges, but I know that because   Jason Hull (34:36) Right, he jumps in and has to solve it too quick.   Right.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (34:47) every single call is being reviewed. And that's how we build our self-managed Excel team.   Jason Hull (34:51) Wow, yeah, it's really cool. I love the idea of, normally in the past, historically, I wasn't really a big fan of BHAGs, like big hairy audacious goals, because it was unrealistic, I thought. But I recently was in Mexico and I was hanging out with Ben Hardy. And he wrote this amazing new book called The Science of Scaling. And he talks about the importance of having impossible goals. And unless the goal is impossible, because he says if a goal is realistic,   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (35:13) Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (35:17) then that means basically you're operating on your current limited level of thinking and your brain has nothing to work on. And as good as AI is, our brain really is like a quantum computer. It's like this masterful supercomputer that can create whole worlds. Our unconscious mind can do amazing things in the background. But unless we give our brain impossible goals to achieve, our brain doesn't even work to formulate new paths or new ways of thinking. It gets us out of our current prison of thinking. And so   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (35:24) Nothing to strive for.   Jason Hull (35:45) This is where I think having really big impossible goals gives you a completely different path than a linear realistic goal. so, you know, I think what I've noticed with AI, and you can test this with AI, like just say, if I want to get from zero to a thousand Instagram followers in a year, what would be my path? And it's gonna give you a pretty predictable linear path. But if you say, how do I get to a million followers in a month, for example?   super impossible, how could that be possible? You're gonna get a completely different path, right? And so the path, you know, having better goals or unrealistic or impossible goals allows your brain in the background to come up with new ideas. So I came back from Mexico, I was like, how could it close 100 deals in a month instead of 10? It's impossible. How could I do that? And I figured it out. It took me a week and a half, my brain just figured it out. I'm like, I have to...   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (36:18) True. Yeah.   Jason Hull (36:43) cancel 60 to 70 % of my calls. Anyone like doesn't confirm I have to get them off my plate. I have to have my setters feed them through a different funnel. And so we have a slow lane, middle lane, and I'm fast lane. I would have to, so we re-engineered our entire sales process and I did it in like a day. I did it in a day, maybe two. And I rebuilt everything because I had to create a completely different path in how we were doing it. Cause my current thinking,   well, my previous level of thinking realistic in order to get my company to be at X millions of dollars, you know, bigger than it is now. I was like, I'm going to have to hire like, it was a linear path. I'm like, I'm doing X. I'm going to have to hire 10 closers, 30 setters. And like it was, yeah. And I'm going to have to build this team. And I didn't even want to do it because that sounded so uncomfortable. And now we closed just about as many deals last month as we did the month before, but   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (37:27) Yeah.   Jason Hull (37:39) our sales calls, at least for me, were like a tiny, tiny fraction because we had made the process so much more efficient because without really, you know, impossible goals, we optimize for the wrong things. And I was optimizing for just increasing this linear difficult path instead of looking at how could I eliminate 90 % of the calls and still have the same close rate? That's a completely different path, right?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (37:45) Yeah.   Yeah, well, I think you're asking your previous questions with the brand you had, right? And so we need to ask different questions with a different, with, yeah.   Jason Hull (38:12) length, which was a brain that was focused on reality. And reality kept   me stuck in the same place for years. And so now I see a path where we can get much larger, much quicker, but it's because I changed my brain's focus into the playground of impossible goals instead of looking at realistic goals, which usually are just a punishment tool that we measure ourselves by.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (38:34) And it's uninspiring.   We're not getting out of bed for realistic goals. And also, in sales, like,   We get punched in the mouth all day every day. Why would you not want to build your dream life? If we're going to do the difficult things, it should be incredibly rewarding.   Jason Hull (38:44) Ahem.   Yeah. Yeah, we get a lot of people coming into the property management industry from the real estate industry, because they're tired of the hunt and chase of deals and getting punched in the mouth. They're like, how do I build a residual income subscription model business that scales and grows, that's systemizable and do that. But a lot of our clients have a brokerage and they have property management, like most of them. They do both. But the   And once the property management business is healthy, it feeds them plenty of real estate deals because investors are always doing deals.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (39:23) Right. Yeah.   Jason Hull (39:24) So anyway, I know, Steve, maybe we should hang out later and come up with some cool ideas together. But yeah, this is really fun stuff to chat about. you know, this probably we could talk about AI probably all day. It's like a big focus of mine right now as well. I'm just super geeking out on it. What, you know, what maybe   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (39:30) Absolutely, I'm game for it.   Yeah, I bet.   Jason Hull (39:47) Big takeaway, would you like everybody to get from listening to this podcast episode and then how could people, who are you looking for to connect with objection proof? And, cause I'm sure some of my audience are your audience as well. And, and how can they get in touch with you?   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (40:03) Yeah, so I think the big takeaway, I mean, we already beaten it quite a bit, but I just want to really emphasize, this is a pivotal moment in time. This is like the dot com era, right? This is like when things started getting online. There are going be a handful of people that are going to make a stupid amount of money in this period of time. And so the same question I always ask is, why not you? Right?   Jason Hull (40:25) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (40:26) So like if you're afraid just start because the reality is like AI will coach you on how to use AI. So just start. I'll say that and then you know the if someone wants to check out what we do I have a URL objectionproof.ai you can upload any sales call through text. It's gonna be a text file. It can be transcription. It can be WAV, M4A, MP3, whatever you can upload it. There's no charge you can use as many times you want. My team hates when I say that but   You upload it for free and it will evaluate your sales call, will email you the results. That's a free tool we have. Also, if anyone wanted to role play with our boss, you can text roleplay, that's one word, to the phone number 33777. And if anyone wants to check out our lead manager, you can text AI space caller, AI caller, to the same number 33777. Again, both of those are free. We're not charging anything for those.   It really is just a demonstration. All three are real demonstration of our actual product in action. And then we give that for free. Now you are going to have to talk to someone on my team. But you'll hear what our salespeople sound like as well. Or you can just ignore it. Either way is fine. But if nothing else, just check it out because you can see the direction we're heading. look, I've heard people say this over and over again. I always kind of like roll my eyes when they say it. But it's still true.   Jason Hull (41:34) Yeah.   Steve Trang ObjectionProof.ai (41:47) The version of AI today is the worst version you'll ever deal with. Because it's only getting better.   Jason Hull (41:51) Yeah.   Yeah, and it's crazy. It's really insane how quick things are changing. It's just speeding up faster and faster. So, all right, well, Steve, great having you on the show. Appreciate you hanging out with me. Those of you watching, if you are a property management business owner, you've ever felt stuck or stagnant, you want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. We can help.   Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together and guess with AI. Bye everyone.

Operaspymaster you may ask? Read on and listen to this episode. In this powerful and multifaceted episode of Unstoppable Mindset, we welcome Kay Sparling, former opera singer, PTSD survivor, and now debut novelist—as she shares her incredible life journey from international stages to the shadowy world of espionage fiction. Kay talks about the creation of her first novel, Mission Thaw, a gripping spy thriller based on her own real-life experiences volunteering with refugees in post-Cold War Europe. Kay and Michael discuss the inspiration behind her protagonist, CIA agent Caitlin Stewart, and how real-world trauma and service led Kay to use fiction as both a vehicle for healing and a call to action on the modern crisis of human trafficking. This is a conversation that transcends genres—music, espionage, activism, and resilience—all converging through the unstoppable spirit of a woman who refuses to stay silent. About the Guest: Kay Sparling was raised in the Midwest. At the age of seven, she began her professional singing career as Gretl in “The Sound of Music” and she continued to perform through high school. After graduation Kay attended University of Kansas and earned a BME in music education and a minor in Vocal Performance. She then attended graduate school in opera voice performance for one year at UMKC Conservatory of Music. She was awarded a grant to finish my graduate studies in Vienna, Austria. From there she won an apprenticeship at the Vienna State Opera. After moving to NYC to complete her second apprenticeship, Kay lived in Germany, Austria, and Italy for many years. In 1999 Kay returned to NYC and continued singing opera and became a cantor for the NYC diocese. After 9/11, she served as a cantor at many of the funeral and memorial masses for the fallen first responders. In 2003, Kay moved from NYC to the upper Midwest and started a conservatory of Music and Theatre where her voice students have been awarded numerous prestigious scholarships and won many competitions. In 2020, the pandemic shut down her conservatory, so she began training to be a legal assistant and now works in workers compensation. Back in 2013, Kay had started writing a journal as a PTSD treatment. She was encouraged to extend the material into a novel. After much training and several drafts, Mission Thaw was published in 2024. Kay is currently writing the second book in the Kaitlyn Stewart Spy Thriller Series. Ways to connect with Kay: Website: https://www.kaysparlingbooks.com X: https://x.com/MissionThaw/missionthaw/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/missionthaw.bsky.social Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/505674375416879 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kay-sparling-8516b638/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/missionthaw/ Litsy: https://www.litsy.com/web/user/Mission%20Thaw About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike hingson, and our guest today is a very fascinating individual. I was just teasing her a little bit about her email address, which is operaspy master@gmail.com I'm telling you, don't cross her. That's all I gotta say. Anyway, we'll, we'll get into all of that. But I really am glad that she is with us. Kay Sparling is a fascinating woman who's had an interesting career. She's written, she's done a number of things. She's used to be an opera, gosh, all sorts of stuff. So anyway, we'll get to all of it and we'll talk about it. I don't want to give it all away. Where would the fun in that be? Kay, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kay Sparling ** 02:11 Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 we're glad you're here. You're from up in Wisconsin. We were going to do this a couple of weeks ago, but you had all the storms, and it stole your internet and your power away, didn't   Kay Sparling ** 02:23 it? It sure did. Yeah, that was a terrible storm we had.   Michael Hingson ** 02:28 Yeah, that's kind of no fun. I remember years ago, I was talking to somebody on the phone. We were doing a sales call, and he said, I might not be able to stay on the phone because we're having a really serious storm, and he said it is possible that the lightning could hit the phone lines, and if it does, it could come in the house. And we talked for a few minutes, and then he said, I'm going to have to hang up, because I just felt a small shock, because the lightning obviously hit the phone line, so we'll have to talk later. And and he was gone. And we did talk later, though he was okay, but still, wow, yeah, there's a lot of crazy weather going on, isn't there? And we were just talking about the, we were just talking about the Canadian wildfires. They're No fun.   Kay Sparling ** 03:15 No, no. Just everywhere is having crazy weather.   Michael Hingson ** 03:20 Well, tell us a little bit about you growing up and all that sort of stuff, and telling me about the the early K   Kay Sparling ** 03:32 Well, growing up, I grew up in a farm community in the in the central Midwest, just you know, right in the middle of the bread basket, you might say, not near where you are now. No no, no further south and in very much agriculture time, I mean skipping ahead. I remember talking to a famous opera conductor when I was an apprentice, and I made some reference, and he goes, Well, how would you know that? And I said, because I grew up on a farm. And he went, Oh, get out here. Nobody makes it, you know, to a major European opera house from a farm. And I went, Well, I did. And later, I asked my mom to send me a picture, because we had had an aerial view taken of our homestead, and it was obvious for miles, all the way around the house and the barn and all, it was just corn fields and soybeans. You know what they showed   Michael Hingson ** 04:40 Illinois, Illinois, and so you showed it to him, yeah,   Kay Sparling ** 04:44 I showed it to him, and he was like, well, doggone, you're not lying. Like, No, I wasn't kidding you. I really did.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 It shows how good I really am. See how far I progressed.   Kay Sparling ** 04:55 Well, you know, I was one of these kids. I. At five years old, I my parents took me to see sound and music at the theater, and during the intermission. Now I'm five years old, it's pretty late for me, right? But when we're in the concession stand, I tug at my mom's skirt, and I say, Mom, that's what I want to do. And she looks at me kind of funny, and she's kind of funny, and she's kind of confused. Well, what do you want to do work in a theater? You know, a movie theater? No, no, I want to do what those kids are doing on that on the movie screen. And she was like, Well, honey, you know, that's that's really hard to get somewhere like that. So that was when I was five. And then when I was seven, she just, you know, the all the school and the church were telling her, this kid's got a great voice, and they kept giving me solos and stuff. And so when I was seven, she put me in the Sangamon County Fair Little Miss competition. And of course, my talent was singing, so I just sang away. I really can't remember what I sang, but afterwards, a fellow came up to my parents and introduced himself, and he said that he was there, he had family, not, you know, in the area, and that he had grown up there, but since then, he he was in St Louis, and he said, we are, I'm a scout, and I'm looking, I'm an entertainment Scout, and I'm actually looking for, you know, the von trop children. We're going to do a big production, and we'd love to audition your daughter. Well, we were about, think it was an hour and a half away from St Louis, so my parents are like, wow, that'd be quite a commitment. But long story short, I did it, and that started my professional career. I was the youngest Bon Troy. You know, over cradle, yeah. And so it just went from there. And, you know, it was all Broadway, of course, and I did a lot of church singing, you know, it got to be by the time I was, you know, in high school, people were hiring me for weddings, funerals, all that kind of thing. And so I was a Broadway and sacred singer. Went to college. My parents said, you can't depend on a vocal performance degree. What if things don't work out? You have to have something fall back. So I went into vocal music ed at a very, very good school for that, and also music therapy, and, you know, continue being in their shows. And when I when I graduated, continued the Broadway, and one night I was also singing a little bit of jazz in Kansas City, where I was living, someone approached me. She was a voice teacher at the conservatory there, and that conservatory had an apprenticeship with the Kansas City Lyric Opera. And she said I knew you was an undergrad. My husband works where you, where you went to school, and I have been watching you for a long time. And I wish you quit this nonsense of singing Broadway and jazz and rock and everything and get serious, you know, and try opera. So I thought she was crazy to bring that up, but it wasn't the first time it had been brought up. So I have been teaching for a year, and at the end of that school year, I announced everyone I was going to graduate school and I was going to study opera. And so   Michael Hingson ** 08:55 what were you teaching?   Kay Sparling ** 08:57 I was teaching high school choir, okay, at a very big high school, very, very good choir department.   Michael Hingson ** 09:03 Now, by the way, after doing Gretel, did you ever have any other parts as you grew older in Sound of Music?   Kay Sparling ** 09:11 Okay, that's a very cool question. I am one of the few people that I know that can say I have sang every major role in Sound of Music sometime in my life. Ah, okay, because it was so popular when I was Oh, yeah. And as I would grow older, well now you're going to sing, you know, you just kept graduating up. And then pretty soon I sang quite a few Marias. And then after I was an opera singer. During covid, I was asked to sing Mother Superior. Mother Superior. Yeah, literally, have sung, you know, in a decades long career, I've sung every role in Sound of Music.   Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Cool. Well, that's great.   10:00 Yeah, so, so, anyway, so   Michael Hingson ** 10:02 you said that you were going to go study opera,   Kay Sparling ** 10:07 and I did a graduate school, and then I got the chance to get an international grant over to Europe, and so I decided to not finish my masters at that time and go over there and finish it, and most of all, importantly, do my first apprenticeship in Europe. And so I thought that was a great opportunity. They were willing. They were going to willing to pay for everything. And I said I would be a fool to turn this down. Yeah, so off I went, and that's kind of the rest of the story. You know, got a lot of great training, left Europe for a while, moved to New York City, trained best coaches and teachers in the world at the Metropolitan Opera and then, you know, launch my career.   Michael Hingson ** 11:04 So you Wow, you, you've done a number of things, of course, going to Europe and being in Vienna and places like that. Certainly you were in the the right place.   Kay Sparling ** 11:16 Yes, yes, definitely. You know, at that time in the in the middle 80s, United States was we had some great opera houses Iran, but we had very few. And it just wasn't the culture that it was in Europe, in Europe. And so, yes, there was a lot more opportunity there, because there was such a culture established there already.   Michael Hingson ** 11:44 So you went off and you did Europe and saying opera, what were you a soprano? Or what were you that sounds like a way a little high for your voice?   Kay Sparling ** 11:59 Well, you have to remember, I'm a senior citizen now. So this is the way it worked for me, because we're talking decades from the age 27 and I quit singing at 63 so that's a very long time to sing opera. So I started out, as you know, there is a voice kind of category, and each one of those, we use a German word for that. It's called Foch, F, A, C, H, and you know, that is determined by the kind of vocal cords you have, and the kind of training and the literature you're singing, and hopefully that all meshes together if you have good coaches and a good agent and such. And I literally have seen so many different Fox lyric, lyric mezzo, then to, very shortly, lyric soprano, and then for a long time, spinto soprano, which would be the Puccini and a lot of them really popular things. And then I was, I felt I was quite lucky that my voice did have the strength and did mature into a Verdi soprano, which is a dramatic soprano, not many of those around. And so that was, that was an endeavor, but at the same time, that was a leg up. And so most of the time in my career, I sang the bigger Puccini, like, let's say Tosca, and I sang a lot of Verdi. So I was an Italian opera singer. I mostly sang in Italian, not to say that I didn't sing in German or French, but I did very little in comparison to the   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Italian Well, there's a lot of good Italian opera out there, although mostly I don't understand it, but I don't speak Italian well.   Kay Sparling ** 14:07 The great thing about most houses now is, you know, you can just look at the back of the seat in front of you, and there's the translation, you know, yeah, that   Michael Hingson ** 14:18 doesn't work for me. Being blind, that doesn't work for you. Yeah, that's okay, though, but I like the music, yeah. So how long ago did you quit singing?   Kay Sparling ** 14:32 Um, just about, well, under, just a little under three years ago, okay?   Michael Hingson ** 14:38 And why did you quit? This was the right time,   Kay Sparling ** 14:42 senses or what I had a circumstance, I had to have throat surgery. Now it wasn't on my vocal cords, but it was on my thyroid, and unfortunately, the vocal cord nerve. They had to take out some Cyst On. My right thyroid, and then remove it too. And unfortunately, my vocal cords were damaged at that time, I would have probably be singing still now some you know, I mean, because dramatic sopranos just can go on and on and on. One of my mentors was Birgit Nielsen, famous singer from Sweden, and she was in my grandmother's generation, but she didn't, I went to work with her, and she demonstrated at 77 she could still pop out of high C. And I believe, I believe I would have been able to do that too, but you know, circumstances, you know, changed, but that's okay. Yeah, I had sung a long time, and at least I can speak. So I'm just very happy about that.   Michael Hingson ** 15:51 So when you did quit singing, what did you decide to go do? Or, or, How did, how did you progress from there?   Kay Sparling ** 16:01 Well, I had already made a transition where I had come in 2003 to the Midwest. I came back from New York City, where I lived many, many years, and I started a conservatory of music and acting, and then that kind of grew into a whole conservatory of music. So I was also a part time professor here in Wisconsin, and I taught voice, you know, one on one vocal lessons, so high school and college and graduate school, and so I had this huge studio. So when that happened, I wasn't getting to sing a whole lot, because I was much more focused on my students singing me at that point, especially the older ones, professional ones, and so, you know, I just kept teaching and and then I had started this book that I'm promoting now, and so that gave me more time to get that book finished   Michael Hingson ** 17:10 and published. What's the name of the book?   Kay Sparling ** 17:13 The book is called Mission, thaw.   Michael Hingson ** 17:16 Ah, okay, and what is it about   Kay Sparling ** 17:22 mission thaw is feminist spy thriller set at the very end of the Cold War in the late 80s, and the main protagonist is Caitlin Stewart, who it who has went over there to be an opera singer, and soon after she arrives, is intensely recruited by the CIA. They have a mission. They really, really need a prima donna Mozart soprano, which is what Caitlin was, and she had won a lot of competitions and won a grant to go over there, and so they had been vetting her in graduate school in the United States. And soon as she came to Europe, they they recruited her within a couple weeks of her being there, and she, of course, is totally blindsided by that. When they approach her, she had she she recognized that things were not exactly the way they should be, that people were following her, and she was trying to figure out who, are these people and why are they following me everywhere? Well, it ends up being young CIA agents, and so when the head chief and his, you know, the second chief, approach her, you know, she's not real happy, because she's already felt violated, like her privacy has been violated, and so she wasn't really too wonderful of listening to them and their needs. And so they just sort of apprehend her and and throw her in a car, in a tinted window Mercedes, and off they go to a park to talk to her, right? And so it's all like crazy movie to Caitlin. It's like, what is going on here? And, you know, she can tell they're all Americans, and they have dark suits on, even though it's very, very hot, and dark glasses, you know? So everything is just like a movie. And so when they approach her and tell her about what they need her to do, you know, and this would be in addition to the apprentice she is doing that, you know, she just gets up and says, I'm sorry I didn't come over and be in cloak and dagger. A, you know, ring, I'm getting out of here. And as she's walking away, the chief says, Well, what if you could help bring down the Berlin Wall? Well, now that stops her in her tracks, and she turns around. She goes, What are you kidding? I'm just a, you know, an opera apprentice from the Midwest grew up on a farm. What am I gonna do? Hit a high C and knock it down. I mean, what are you talking about?   Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Hey, Joshua, brought down the wealth of Jericho, after all. Well, yeah, some   Kay Sparling ** 20:34 later, someone tells her that, actually, but, but anyway, they say, well, sit down and we'll explain what we need you to do. And so the the initial job that Caitlin accepts and the CIA to be trained to do is what they call a high profile information gap. She has a wonderful personality. She's really pretty. She's very fashionable, so she can run with the jet set. And usually the jet set in Europe, the opera jet set is also where all the heads of states hang out, too. And at that time, the the Prime Minister was pretty much banking the Vienna State Opera where she was apprenticing. So he ends up being along with many other Western Austrian businessmen in a cartel of human trafficking. Who they are trafficking are all the the different citizens of the countries that USSR let go. You know, when you know just got to be too much. Remember how, oh yeah, we're going to let you go. Okay? And then they would just pull out. And there was no infrastructure. There was nothing. And these poor people didn't have jobs, they didn't have electricity. The Russian mafia was running in there trying to take, you know, take over. It was, it was chaos. And so these poor people were just packing up what they could to carry, and literally, sometimes walking or maybe taking a train into the first Western European country they could get to. And for a lot of them, just because the geographical area that was Austria. And so basically, the Austrians did not want these people, and they were being very unwelcoming and arresting a lot of them, and there was a lot of lot of bad behavior towards these refugees. And so the Catholic church, the Catholic Social Services, the Mennonite Relief Fund, the the UN and the Red Cross started building just tent after tent after tent on the edge of town for these people to stay at. And so the businessmen decide, well, we can traffic these people that have nothing over to the East Germans, who will promise them everything, but will give them nothing. But, you know, death camps, basically, just like in World War Two. So you have work camps, you have factories. They they don't feed these people correctly. They don't they don't give them anything that they promise to them in in the camps. And they say, Okay, be on this train at this time, this night. And then they stop somewhere in between Vienna and East Germany, in a very small train station in the middle of the Alps. And they have these large, you know, basic slave options. And unfortunately, the children in the older people get sent back to the camp because they don't need them or want them. So all the children get displaced from their families, as well as the senior citizens or anyone with a disability. And then, you know, the men and the women that can work are broken up as well, and they're sent to these, you know, they're bought by these owners of these factories and farms, and the beautiful women, of course, are sold to either an individual that's there in East German that just wants to have a sex aid, pretty much. Or even worse, they could be sold to an underground East Berlin men's club. And so terrible, terrible things happen to the women in particular, and the more that Caitlin learns. As she's being trained about what's happening, and she interviews a lot of these women, and she sees the results of what's happened, it, it, it really strengthens her and gives her courage. And that's a good thing, because as time goes through the mission, she ends up having to be much, much more than just a high profile social, you know, information gather. She ends up being a combat agent and so, but that that's in the mission as you read, that that happens gradually and so, what? What I think is really a good relationship in this story, is that the one that trains her, because this is actually both CIA and MI six are working on this, on this mission, thought and the director of the whole mission is an very seasoned mi six agent who everyone considers the best spy in the free world. And Ian Fleming himself this, this is true. Fact. Would go to this man and consult with him when he was writing a new book, to make sure you know that he was what he was saying is, Could this really happen? And that becomes that person, Clive Matthews become praying, Caitlyn, particularly when she has to start changing and, you know, defending herself. And possibly, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 26:38 so he becomes her teacher in   Kay Sparling ** 26:42 every way. Yes. So how   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 much? Gee, lots of questions. First of all, how much of the story is actually   Kay Sparling ** 26:50 true? All this story is true. The   Michael Hingson ** 26:53 whole mission is true. Yes, sir. And so how did you learn about this? What? What caused you to start to decide to write this story?   Kay Sparling ** 27:08 So some of these experiences are my own experiences. And so after I as an opera singer, decided to be a volunteer to help out these refugees. I witnessed a lot, and so many years later, I was being treated for PTSD because of what I'd witnessed there. And then a little bit later in Bosnia in the early 90s, and I was taking music therapy and art therapy, and my psychiatrist thought that it'd be a good idea if also I journaled, you know, the things that I saw. And so I started writing things, and then I turned it in, and they had a person that was an intern that was working with him, and both of them encouraged me. They said, wow, if, if there's more to say about this, you should write a book, cuz this is really, really, really good stuff. And so at one point I thought, Well, why not? I will try. So this book is exactly what happened Caitlin, you know, is a real person, and everyone in the book is real. Of course, I changed the names to protect people and their descriptions, but I, you know, I just interviewed a lot of spies that were involved. So, yes, this is a true story.   Michael Hingson ** 29:06 Did you do most of this? Then, after your singing career, were you writing while the career, while you were singing?   Kay Sparling ** 29:13 I was writing while I was still singing. Yeah, I started the book in 2015 Okay, and because, as I was taking the PTSD treatment and had to put it on the shelf several times, life got in the way. I got my my teaching career just really took off. And then I was still singing quite a bit. And then on top of it, everything kind of ceased in 2018 when my mother moved in with me and she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, but Louie body Alzheimer's, which is a very, very rough time, and so I became one of her caretakers. So I quit singing, put that on hold, and I. I had to really, really bring down the number in my studio I was teaching and spend time here at home. And so I would take care of her, but then after she would go to bed, and she'd go to bed much earlier than I wanted to, that's when I write, and that's when I got the lion's share of this book written. Was during that time, it was a great escape from what I was dealing with, believe it or not, you know, even though there's some real graphic things in the book and all it wasn't, it was a nice distraction.   Michael Hingson ** 30:36 Wow, so you, you lived this, needless to say,   Kay Sparling ** 30:41 Yes, I did, and yes.   Michael Hingson ** 30:45 So you've talked a little bit about what happened to these countries after the collapse of the USSR and communism and so on, these eastern companies, companies, countries. Has it changed much over the years.   Kay Sparling ** 31:03 Oh, yeah, for instance, one, you know, I went to Budapest after they were freed, I guess is what usr would say. Stayed in a five star hotel, and we were lucky if we had running water and electricity at the same time. And every time you went down on the streets, all you'd see is lines, you know, I mean, just because there'd be all like, Red Cross, etc, would be there, and they'd have these big trucks they drove in every day, and it just got to be because they had nothing. If you saw a truck, you'd start running towards it and get in line. You didn't care what it was, you know, and it was. And then fights would break out because they wouldn't have enough for everyone. And then, like, you know, maybe someone's walking away with a bag of rice, and some of us knock them over the head and take, you know, and it was very hard, you know, I was a volunteer there, and it was very, very hard to see this, you know, desperation, one story that I'd like to tell, and I put it in the book. I was riding my bike, you know, on a Friday afternoon to get some groceries at the nearest supermarket where my apartment was, and at that time, they still had the European hours, so they were going to close at five o'clock, and they weren't going to open until seven or eight on Monday morning. So you had to make sure you got there to get your weekend supply. So I was on my way, and I was parking my bike, and this woman, refugee woman, runs up and she has two small children with her, and she's carrying a baby, and she's speaking to me in a language I did not know. I do speak several languages, but I don't know Slavic languages and so, but I'm getting the gist of it that she has nothing to eat, neither do her children, and so I'm patting her on the shoulder, and right when I do that, a policeman that was guarding the door of the supermarket came up to me and, like, grabbed me really hard, and told me in German that I was not To speak to them, and I was not to help them, because if you help them, they'll stay. And I said to him in German, I'm an American. I am not Austrian. I am here on a work visa, and I can do whatever the hell I want to do. Well, he didn't like that. And so I just walked away from him, and I went in the store. And so I got up everything I get. Think of the big need, you know, I never had a baby, so I was trying to kind of figure that out, yeah, and I had to figure it out in German, you know, looking at labels now. And so finally I got, I got some stuff, you know, the stuff I needed, and, and, and the stuff that I got for the family, and I checked out, and I'm pushing the cart, you know, towards them. And he runs up beside me and stops me, and he says, I am going to arrest you if you bring that. I told you not to help them. And I said, again, I don't think I'm breaking any laws. And he said, Oh yes, you are. And I said, Well, I didn't read that in the papers. I didn't see it on TV where anyone said. That you cannot help a refugee. And so we're going back and forth. And so, you know, I'm pretty strong, so I just keep pushing it towards it. Well, she's kind of running down the park, and I'm like, wait, wait, you know, because she's getting scared of this guy, you know, he has a gun, he has a nightstick. Of course, she's scared, and so, you know, I would say, No, no, it's okay, because I can't speak for language, right? And so I'm just trying to give her body language and talk. Well, finally she does stop, and I just throw I give the one sack to the little boy, and one second little girl, they just run and and then, you know, I'm talking to her and saying, you know, it's okay, it's okay. And he grabs me, and he turns me around and he spits in my face.   Michael Hingson ** 35:53 Wow. Talk about breaking the law. But anyway, go ahead.   Kay Sparling ** 36:00 Welcome to Austria in the late 80s. You have to understand their Prime Minister Kurt voltheim won on the Nazi ticket. Mm, hmm. At that very time, if you got on a bus and you saw these businessmen going to work, at least 50% of them were reading the Nazi paper. Okay, so we kind of know what, where his affiliations lie. You know, this policeman and, you know, and I was very aware, you know, of of that party being very strong. And so you have to watch yourself when, when you're a foreigner. And I was a foreigner too, just like her. And so after wiping my face, I mean, I really, really wanted to give him a kick or something, yeah, and I do, I do know martial arts, but I was like, no, no, gotta stay cool. And I just told her to run. And she did and caught up with the children, and, you know, kept running. So that was the first experience I had knowing how unwelcome these people were in Austria. Yeah, so I got involved, yeah, I got involved because I was like, this is absolutely not right.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 And so the book is, in part, to try to bring awareness to all that. I would think   Kay Sparling ** 37:36 absolutely there are, there are bits of it are, they're pretty darn graphic, but it's all true, and it's all documented. Sometimes people about human trafficking, they think, oh, it's not in my backyard. I'm not going to think about that. Well, I live in a very small college town, around 17,000 people, and two months ago, on the front page of this small paper here in town, there were seven men that were arrested for many counts of human trafficking of underage women and prostitution. So guess what, folks, it is in your backyard. If it's in this little town, it's probably in yours too. And we have to be aware before we can do anything. So we have to open our eyes. And I hope this book opens the eyes of the reader to say, Oh, my God, I knew things were bad, but I didn't realize that torture, this kind of thing went on. Well, it does, and I the International Labor Union estimates that 21 million people are being you. You are victims of human trafficking right now, as we speak, throughout the world, that's a lot of people, a lot of people. So most likely, we've all seen some hint of that going on, it didn't register as it at the time. You know, if you're just walked out of a restaurant, and you're walking to your car that's parked on the street, and you happen to go by an alley and there's restaurants on that row, and all of a sudden you see people being kind of shoved out and put in a truck. That's probably human trafficking, you know? And you know, a lot of people don't pay attention, but like, if they stop and think that doesn't look right, and if those people look like they may be from another country, yeah. And all you have to do is call the authorities, you know, and other ways that you can help are by you know, that that you can get involved. Are, you know, donate to all the different organizations that are finding this now.   Michael Hingson ** 40:19 Was the book self published, or do you have a publisher?   Kay Sparling ** 40:25 I self published, but it's more of a hybrid publishing company that's kind of a new thing that's going on, and so I cannot learn all those different facets of publishing a book, right? It just wasn't in my, you know, skill set, and it also wasn't even interesting to me. I don't want to learn how to do graphic illustration. Okay? So what I did is I hired a hybrid company that had all these different departments that dealt with this, and I had complete artistic control, and I was able to negotiate a great deal on my net profits. So I feel that, after looking into the traditional publishing world and not being exactly pleased with it to say the least, I think that was the right business choice for me to make, and I'm very happy I did it.   Michael Hingson ** 41:46 How do you market the book then?   Kay Sparling ** 41:48 Well, that was, that was the tricky part that that publisher did have some marketing they started, but obviously now they agreed it wasn't enough. So at that point, I attended a virtual women's publishing seminar, and I really paid attention to all the companies that were presenting about marketing. And in that time, I felt one that I just was totally drawn to, and so I asked her if we could have a consultation, and we did, and the rest is history. I did hire her team and a publicist, Mickey, who you probably know, and, yeah, it's been going really great. That was the second smart thing I did, was to, you know, hire, hire a publicity.   Michael Hingson ** 42:50 Well, yeah, and marketing is one is a is a tricky thing. It's not the most complicated thing in the world, but you do have to learn it, and you have to be disciplined. So good for you, for for finding someone to help, but you obviously recognize the need to market, which is extremely important, and traditional publishers don't do nearly as much of it as they used to. Of course, there are probably a lot more authors than there used to be too. But still,   Kay Sparling ** 43:19 yeah, their their marketing has changed completely. I remember I had a roommate that became a famous author, and just thinking about when he started, you know, in the 80s, how the industry is completely changed. Mm, hmm, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's really tricky. The whole thing is very tricky. One thing that I also did is one of my graduate students needed a job, and so I've known her since, literally, I've known her since eighth grade. I have been with this student a long time, and she's done very well, but she really is a wiz at the social media. And so she made all my accounts. I think I have 12 altogether, and every time I do something like what I'm doing tonight, soon as it's released, she just puts it out there, everywhere and and I have to thank her from again that that's probably not my skill set.   Michael Hingson ** 44:37 Well, everyone has gifts, right? And the the people who I think are the most successful are the people who recognize that they have gifts. There are other people that have gifts that will augment or enhance what they do. And it's good that you find ways to collaborate. I think collaborating is such an important thing. Oh, yeah. All too many people don't. They think that they can just do it all in and then some people can. I mean, I know that there are some people who can, but a lot of people don't and can't.   Kay Sparling ** 45:12 Well, I've got other things. I've got going, you know, so maybe if I only had to do the book, everything to do with the book, that would be one thing, but I, you know, I have other things I have to have in my life. And so I think that collaboration is also fun, and I'm very good at delegating. I have been very good at delegating for a long time. When I started my school. I also started a theater company, and if you know one thing, it's a three ring circus to produce an opera or a musical, and I've done a lot of them, and yeah, I would have not survived if I didn't learn how to delegate and trust people to do their own thing. So what are you   Michael Hingson ** 45:58 doing today? What are you doing today? Besides writing?   Kay Sparling ** 46:04 Well, during covid, everything got shut down, and I didn't have an income, and I had to do something. And one of, believe it or not, one of my parents, of one of my students, is an attorney for the state of Wisconsin, and she was very worried. I mean, it looked like I might lose my house. I mean, I literally had no income. And so, you know, I was a small business person, and so she offered me very graciously to come work in the department of workers compensation in the legal Bureau at the state of Wisconsin. So I never have done anything like that in my life. I have never sat in a cubicle. I've never sat in front of a computer unless it was in its recording studio or something like that. So it was a crazy thing to have to do in my early 60s, but I'm a single woman, and I had to do it, and and I did, and it put me on solid ground, and that was one reason I couldn't finish the book, because I didn't have to worry about a live cookie. And so I am continuing to do that in so as in the day, that is what I do. I'm a legal assistant, cool.   Michael Hingson ** 47:32 And so when did mission thought get published?   Kay Sparling ** 47:38 Mission thought almost a year ago, in August of 2024 it launched, yes, okay, yeah. And it was very scary for me, you know, because my hybrid publishers up in Canada, and they were telling me, Well, you know, we're going to get you some editorial reviews and we're going to have you be interviewed. And you know, those very first things where my editor at at the publisher had told me it was one of the really a good book, and that was one of the cleanest books she ever had to edit. And so that kind of gave me some confidence. But you understand, look at my background. I I didn't go to school to be a writer. I had never studied writing. I hadn't done any writing up until now, and so to that was my first kind of sigh of relief when the editor at the publisher said it was really a good book, and then I started getting the editorial reviews, and they were all stellar, and they continue to be. And I'm, I'm still a little shocked, you know, because it takes time, I guess, for a person to switch gears and identify themselves as an author. But you know, after a year now, I'm feeling much more comfortable in my shoes about that. But at first it was, it was trying because I was scared and I was worried, you know, what people were going to think about the book, not the story, so much as how it was crafted. But it ends up, well,   Michael Hingson ** 49:15 it ends up being part of the same thing, and yeah, the very fact that they love it that that means a lot. Yeah, so is, is there more in the way of adventures from Caitlin coming up or what's happening?   Kay Sparling ** 49:30 Yeah, this is hopefully a trilogy, um of Caitlin's most important standout missions. And so the second one is set in the early 90s during the Bosnian war. And this time, she cannot use opera as a cover, because obviously in a war zone, there's no opera. And so she has to. To go undercover as either a un volunteer or Red Cross, and this time, her sidekick is not the Clive Matthews. He has actually started a special squad, combat squad that's going in because, of course, we, none of us, were really involved with that war, right? But that's what he's doing. And so, believe it or not, her, her sidekick, so to speak, is a priest that very early, goes on and sees, you know, this absolute ethnic cleansing going on, you know, massacres and and he tries to get the Catholic Church to help, and they're like, no, no, we're not touching that. And so he goes AWOL. And had been friends in Vienna with the CIA during the first book. He goes to the CIA and says, This is what's going on. I saw it with my own eyes. I want to help. And so he becomes Caitlin's sidekick, which is a very interesting relationship. You know, Caitlin, the opera singer, kind of, kind of modern girl, you know, and then you know, the kind of staunch priest. But they find a way to work together, and they have to, because they have to save each other's lives a couple times. And this is my favorite book of the three. And so basically what happens is called Mission impromptu, and I hope to have that finished at the end of this month. And the reason we call it impromptu is because her chief tells her to just get the information and get out, but her and the priest find out that there is a camp of orphaned boys that they are planning to come massacre, and so they they they basically go rogue and don't follow orders and go try to help the boys. Yeah. And then the third book, she has actually moved back to New York, and she's thinking, well, she does retire from the CIA, and it's the summer of 2001 and what happened in September of 2001 911 and so they call her right back in she literally had been retired for about three months.   Michael Hingson ** 52:35 Well, to my knowledge, I never met Caitlin, so I'm just saying Mm hmm, having been in the World Trade Center on September 11, but I don't think I met Caitlin anyway.   Kay Sparling ** 52:43 Go ahead. No, she wasn't in the towers, but no, I was in New York. And yeah, so they called her back right away. And so the third one is going to be called Mission home front, because that's been her home for a very long time. She's been living in New York.   Michael Hingson ** 53:01 Are there plans for Caitlin beyond these three books? I hope so.   Kay Sparling ** 53:08 I think it would be fun for her to retire from the CIA and then move back to the Midwest. And, you know, it turned into a complete fiction. Of course, this is not true stuff, but, you know, like kind of a cozy mystery series, right, where things happen and people can't get anyone to really investigate it, so they come to Caitlin, and then maybe her ex boss, you know, the chief that's also retired, they kind of, you know, gang up and become pi type, you know, right? I'm thinking that might be a fun thing.   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 Now, are mostly books two and three in the mission series. Are they also relatively non fiction?   53:53 Yes, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:57 okay, cool, yes. Well, you know, it's, it's pretty fascinating to to hear all of this and to to see it, to hear about it from you, but to see it coming together, that is, that is really pretty cool to you know, to see you experiencing have the book, has mission thought been converted by any chance to audio? Is it available on Audible or   Kay Sparling ** 54:21 anywhere it has not but it is in my plans. It's there's a little bit of choice I have to make do. I use my publisher and hire one of their readers you know to do it, someone you know, that's in equity, that type of thing. Or you know, my publicity, or people are also saying, well, because you're an actor, and, you know, all these accents, it might be nice for you to do to read your own book. Well, the problem is time, you know, just the time to do it, because I'm so busy promoting the book right now. And really. Right writing the second one that you know, I just don't know if I'm going to be able to pull that off, but I have my own records, recording studio in my voice studio downstairs, but it's just and I have all the equipment I have engineers. It's just a matter of me being able to take the time to practice and to get that done. So it's probably going to be, I'll just use their, one of their people, but yes, yeah, it's coming. It's coming. Well, it's,   Michael Hingson ** 55:29 it's tough. I know when we published last year, live like a guide dog, and the publisher, we did it through a traditional publisher, they worked with dreamscape to create an audio version. And I actually auditioned remotely several authors and chose one. But it is hard to really find someone to read the book the way you want it read, because you know what it's like, and so there is merit to you taking the time to read it. But still, as you said, there are a lot of things going on,   Kay Sparling ** 56:09 yeah, and I have read, you know, certain portions of the book, because some podcasts that I've been on asked me to do that, and I and I practiced and that, it went very well. And of course, when people hear that, they're like, Oh, you're the one that has to do this. You know Caitlin. You can speak her, you know her attitudes and all. And then you also know how to throw all those different accents out there, because there's going to be, like, several, there's Dutch, there's German, there's Scottish, high British and Austrian. I mean, yeah, yeah, Austrians speak different than Germans. Mm, hmm,   Michael Hingson ** 56:53 yeah, it's it's a challenge, but it's still something worth considering, because you're going to bring a dimension to it that no one else really can because you wrote it and you really know what you want them to sound like, Yeah, but it's a it's a process. I and I appreciate that, but you've got lots going on, and you have to have an income. I know for me, we started live like a guide dog my latest book when the pandemic began, because I realized that although I had talked about getting out of the World Trade Center and doing so without exhibiting fear, didn't mean that it wasn't there, but I realized that I had learned to control fear, because I learned a lot that I was able to put to use on the Day of the emergency. And so the result of that was that, in fact, the mindset kicked in and I was able to function, but I never taught anyone how to do that. And so the intent of live like a guide dog was to be a way that people could learn how to control fear and not let fear overwhelm or, as I put it, blind them, but rather use fear as a very powerful tool to help you focus and do the things that you really need to do. But it's a choice. People have to learn that they can make that choice and they can control it, which is kind of what really brought the book to to mind. And the result was that we then, then did it. And so it came out last August as well.   Kay Sparling ** 58:27 Oh, well, if you read my book, you'll see Caitlin developing the same skills you were just talking about. She has to overcome fear all the time, because she's never been in these situations before, and yet she has to survive, you know?   Michael Hingson ** 58:44 Yeah, well, and the reality is that most of us take too many things for granted and don't really learn. But if you learn, for example, if there's an emergency, do you know where to go in the case of an emergency? Do you know how to evacuate, not by reading the signs? Do you know? And that's the difference, the people who know have a mindset that will help them be a lot more likely to be able to survive, because they know what all the options are, and if there's a way to get out, they know what they are, rather than relying on signs, which may or may not even be available to you if you're in a smoke filled environment, for example, yeah,   Kay Sparling ** 59:22 yeah, you should know ahead of time. Yeah, you know, I know the state where I work. I I mostly work at home. I'm able to do that, but we do have to go in once a week, and we just changed floors. They've been doing a lot of remodeling, and that was the first thing, you know, the supervisor wanted us to do was walk through all the way for a tornado, fire, etc, and so we did that, you know, and that's smart, because then you're like, you say you're not trying to look at a chart as you're running or whatever,   Michael Hingson ** 59:56 and you may need to do it more than once to make sure you really know it. I know for me. I spent a lot of time walking around the World Trade Center. In fact, I didn't even use my guide dog. I used a cane, because with a cane, I'll find things that the dog would just automatically go around or ignore, like kiosks and other things. But I want to know where all that stuff is, because I want to know what all the shops are down on the first floor. Well, now that that is the case anymore, but it was at the time there was a shopping mall and knowing where everything was, but also knowing where different offices were, knowing who was in which offices, and then knowing the really important things that most people don't know about, like where the Estee Lauder second store was on the 46th floor of tower two. You know, you got to have the important things for wives, and so I learned what that was. Well, it was, it was, those are important things, but you'll learn a lot, and it's real knowledge. Someone, a recent podcast episode that they were on, said something very interesting, and that is that we're always getting information, but information isn't knowing it. Knowledge is really internalizing the information and making it part of our psyche and really getting us to the point where we truly know it and can put it to use. And that is so true. It isn't just getting information. Well, that's great. I know that now, well, no, you don't necessarily know it now, until you internalize it, until you truly make it part of your knowledge. And I think that's something that a lot of people miss. Well, this has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you, is there a way they can do that?   Kay Sparling ** 1:01:40 Yeah, the best thing is my book website, K, Sparling books.com spelled and it would K, a, y, s, p, as in Paul, A, R, L, I N, G, B, O, O, K, s.com.com, okay, and you can email me through there. And all the media that I've been on is in the media section. The editorial reviews are there. There's another thing that my student heats up for me is the website. It's it's really developed. And so lots of information about the book and about me on on there. And one thing I want to mention is, just because of my background and all the all the people that you know, I know, a friend of mine is a composer, and he wrote a song, a theme song, because we do hope that someday we can sell this, you know, yeah, to for movie and, or, you know, Netflix, or something like that. And so he wrote a theme song and theme music. And I just think that's fun. And then I wanted my students saying, saying it. And then, you know, it's with a rock band, but it's, it's very James Bond, the kind of with a little opera, you know, involved too. But, you know, not a lot of authors can say that on their website, they have a theme song for their books.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:16 And where is   Kay Sparling ** 1:03:18 it? It would be under, it's going to be about the author. And there's a nice one of my other students is a graphic artist. She She did a graphic a scene of Caitlin with her ball gown, and she's got her foot up on a stool, and she's putting her pistol in her thigh holster, in I think, you know, it's kind of like a cartoon, and it quotes Caitlin saying, I bet you I'm going to be the only bell at the ball with this accessory pistol. And then right underneath that, that song, you can click it and hear it. We also are on YouTube mission. Thought does have its own YouTube channel, so you can find it there as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:05 So well, I want to thank you for being here and for telling us all the stories and especially about mission. I hope people will get it and read it, and I look forward to it coming out in audio at some point. Yes, I'll be lazy and wait for that, I I like to to get books with human readers. You know, I can get the print book and I can play it with a synthetic voice, but I, I really prefer human voices. And I know a lot of people who do AI has not progressed to the point where it really can pull that off.   Kay Sparling ** 1:04:38 Well, no, it cannot. Yeah, I totally agree with you there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 So Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. This has been fun. And as some of you know, if you listen to many of these podcasts, we have a rule on the podcast, you can't come on unless you're going to have fun. So we did have fun. We. You have fun? Yeah. See, there you go. I was gonna ask if you had fun. Of course, yes. So thank you all for listening. Love to hear from you. Love to hear what your thoughts are about today's episode. Feel free to email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, also, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. K, I'll appreciate it. And when this goes up, when you hear it, we really value those ratings and reviews very highly. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest and KU as well, love to hear from you. Please introduce us. Kay, you'll have to introduce us to Caitlin, but But seriously, we always are looking for more guests. So if anyone knows of anyone who ought to come on and tell a story, we'd love to hear from you. But again, Kay, I want to thank you one last time. This has been great, and we really appreciate you being here.   Kay Sparling ** 1:05:59 Well, thank you for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:04 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Minna ja Kimmo pohtivat nelipäiväistä työviikkoa ja keskustelevat lentopallon MM-kilpailuista. Onko Kimmo kirjoittanut salanimellä Hesarin lasten tiedeosioon, koetko asuinpaikkakuntasi turvalliseksi ja oletko kohdannut autosi sisarusta?

“I ask them to sing with maximum efficiency, accessing their singer's formant, and from there, we'll ask for specific sounds. Sometimes conductors get stuck asking them to blend, to listen. When we do that, it's like giving them an 8-pack of Crayola and asking them to color. Instead, we start the rehearsal with a 64-pack and then throughout the rehearsal we might pick out the light blue #2 to color that section of the music. They're able to access the full breadth of their vocal powers in the rehearsal.”Francis Cathlina, D.M.A. (he/him) is a Vietnamese-American conductor and educator, renowned for his innovative approach to choral music. His concerts invite audiences into a world where choral artistry becomes a powerful storytelling medium.Dr. Cathlina is currently the Director of Choral Activities at the University of Memphis, where he received the 2025 Dean's Award for Creative Achievement. He oversees the Choral Area, leads the MM/DMA Choral Conducting program, and conducts the University Singers.A two-time GRAMMY-nominated educator, Dr. Cathlina draws deeply from his Eastern heritage. His work reflects a commitment to excellence and collaboration. In 2025, he will serve on the conducting faculty for Brazil's FIMUS Festival and work in the Philippines as part of ACDA's International Conductors Exchange Program. Early recognition came from the Texas Choral Directors Association (TCDA), which named him a “Young Director of Distinction.”Cathlina's teaching philosophy centers on developing masterful technicians, expressive communicators, and thoughtful citizens. Under his direction, the UofM University Singers have been invited to perform for national conferences. Recent engagements involve All-State choirs in Mississippi and Kentucky, the International Mu Phi Convention Chorus, and a Carnegie Hall debut. Dr. Cathlina's research focuses on choral tone and conducting gesture. He has presented over 69 sessions worldwide. He is published in international journals. In 2025, he served as the Headliner for the Ohio and Alabama choral conferences. In 2023, he co-led Conducting Masterclasses in Greece with the University of Macedonia and Ionian University.Dr. Cathlina earned a DMA in conducting with a vocal pedagogy cognate from the University of North Texas, an MM from Michigan State University, and a BME from Baylor University. Before his doctorate, he taught in Texas public schools. Beyond the podium, Dr. Cathlina is an avid pickleball player. He, his husband Kyle, and their dog Coco call Memphis, Tennessee, their home. To get in touch with Francis, you can find him on Instagram (@francis.cathlina) or Facebook (@franciscathlina), on his website (franciscathlina.com), or via email: franciscathlina@gmail.com.Email choirfampodcast@gmail.com to contact our hosts.Podcast music from Podcast.coPhoto in episode artwork by Trace Hudson

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee speaks with author, activist Michelle MiJung Kim about her new Podcast, I Feel That Way Too. Then we listen to the first episode. Michelle MiJung Kim Website I Feel That Way Too podcast     I FEEL THAT WAY TOO show Transcript Miko Lee: Welcome to APEX Express. I'm your host, Miko Lee, and tonight I'll be talking with author, speaker, and activist, Michelle MiJung Kim, about the new podcast. So we get to listen after the interview to the very first episode, and you get a little behind the scenes with activist Michelle MiJung. Kim, stay tuned. welcome, Michelle MiJung Kim to Apex Express. I'm so excited to chat with you. You are an award-winning author, activist, and now a podcast host. Hello girl. Welcome. Yay. Michelle MiJung Kim: Hello. Thank you so much for having me, Miko. I'm so excited. Miko Lee: I wanna start with my big question, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Michelle MiJung Kim: Hmm. What a deep question that I can go on forever about. My people are, first and foremost people who are in my life, who have supported me throughout. Everything that I've gone through in my life, including my friends and family who have different lineages, people, most of the people that I hold near and dear carry with them, a deep understanding of their historical trauma, their familial trauma, and people who are courageous enough to share them [00:02:00] with me. So that really creates this bond that I have with my people. A lot of my people are in the queer and trans community and in the physical space of the Ohlone land, also known as Oakland, California. A lot of my community rooted in my Asian American identity. Miko Lee: Love this. My follow up, what is the legacy you carry with you from your people? Michelle MiJung Kim: The legacy that I carry from my people that jumps out to me right now is the legacy of my grandparents. My grandparents were both born in Korea. My grandpa from the north, my grandma from the south, and I am always thinking about how my grandpa was fighting for the Korea's liberation from Japanese occupation, and he was a writer himself. I always saw him writing and he had [00:03:00] stacks of paper ready to be published, but he ended up not being able to publish before he passed. So my book dedication starts with my gratitude to my grandparents and my grandpa specifically. The legacy of his work, his spirit, his love for philosophy, social justice language I carry with me. My grandmother, who was part of the first class of women in her generation to go to a university she was a badass matriarch of our family and her energy, her audacity, her courage, her confidence in her herself and her community is what I try to channel. I think about them every day. Miko Lee: Ugh. I love that. I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about your book. Michelle MiJung Kim: My book is called The Wake Up Closing The Gap Between Good Intentions and Real Change and really it's part memoir, part [00:04:00] principles of Social justice that I hold near to my heart. I really wanted to write a book that could be timeless and that could put into accessible ways how we can embody these values that are important for our collective liberation. So much of the social justice work that I encountered throughout my education journey had been highly intellectualized and theoretical and sometimes not unpacked in ways that feel human. I wanna see how people are struggling to hold social justice values while living their daily lives. How sometimes it gets challenging to embody the values that we say are important to us because it asks us to trade off our comfort and safety sometimes. I wanted to be really honest about my experience trying to live in alignment with my values, including the parts of my own contradictions and struggles and paradoxes that I've had to navigate. Miko Lee: Such a powerful [00:05:00] book for the time of now in that it does have the personal story, but then also recognizing what's happening in our world. It's really action forward. Tell me how you got from this book to creating a podcast series called. I feel that way too. Tell me what inspired this whole series? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think it is an extension of the work that I've been doing, which really marries personal storytelling and social justice values. I Feel that way too, exploring these tricky life questions like, can we be friends if we politically disagree? What if I'm not above revenge, even though I am a self-proclaimed abolitionist? Why do I have this urge to, be vengeful and why do I feel gleeful when people that have done harm get punished, right? Am I supposed to sleep with one person for the rest of my life? Am I a bad daughter? These are all the questions that I've struggled [00:06:00] with. I wanted to have an opportunity to unpack them with raw honesty and with guests that could really help guide me in thinking about these things while trying to stay tethered to my values around social justice. I've always been a fan of audio storytelling. So this was the perfect opportunity to explore that, especially in an era where the world is constantly insisting we solve these issues in isolation and we deal with our traumas in shame and without each other's witnessing. This is my way of hopefully making people feel a little bit less alone in their struggles and also in a way that, helps us to build more courage and community through stories. Miko Lee: I binge the entire season. Super fun, super personal., I was wondering how did you decide on these topics? Did they come naturally [00:07:00] or did you create an arc? Tell me about your process. Michelle MiJung Kim: I had probably two, three pages long list of topics that I wanted to explore and we had to pick and narrow it down. I wanted to tackle questions that felt existential in the collective psyche. I look at and feel into the zeitgeist of what is happening in the world . These are the questions that I wanted to explore because of my own life, but also some of these questions bring up a lot of shame and tension. when I looked at other podcasts that were exploring similar topics, I just felt as though a lot of these issues were being talked about in a very intellectualized way, in a very theoretical way without the raw sort of personal storytelling aspect that I was craving. So this was my attempt at being, courageous and practicing what I preach and being able to share some of the more vulnerable [00:08:00] tensions that aren't typically explored in the public arena. Miko Lee: Oh wow. So two whole more pages for future seasons of shows to do. I was, struck by how vulnerable the episodes are, how they're so personal. The first one being around, supporting your single mom and around financial and really emotional stability that really struck me as being so very personal and deep. I just wonder, has your mom and dad listened to the series or particularly that episode and what has been any response? Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. Um, my dad, no, but my mom, yes. I wanted my mom to listen to it before it aired. 'cause I thought that was the only fair thing to do. I gave her the option also to not have this air if she didn't want it to go live. And I was. So [00:09:00] scared about how she was gonna receive it. And for the listeners, the story really goes deep into my struggle around prioritizing her needs over my desires, and constantly living in this. Feeling of guilt for not doing more to support my mom. And also our definition of love and sacrifice being entangled in ways that feel sometimes impossible to navigate. I had attempted to have this conversation years ago with my mom that like completely backfire that I talk about on the podcast and, since then, I just never broached the subject because I was so nervous about how she was gonna take it. , And my biggest fear was her feeling less loved and feeling, hurt by my honesty. And so when it came time for me to present this podcast to her, I was incredibly nervous. What ended up happening was we ended up listening to the episode together. She was sitting [00:10:00] right there on the couch behind me and the, I played the episode and I just couldn't look at her face. So instead of looking directly at her, I had my camera on , so I could look at her through my phone. And I had my back toward her, and within the first five minutes she started crying. So I would pause the episode, talk to her about what was coming up for her. We would cry, we would fight, we would argue, we would apologize and we would cry again. So the entire episode that's 30 minutes long, took us three hours to get through. Miko Lee: Wow. Michelle MiJung Kim: It was incredibly difficult emotionally. And it was probably one of the most pivotal interactions I've ever had with my mom. I've been able to be more honest than ever with her. [00:11:00] She got to also be honest in her reaction and response, and we were able to be really brave with our vulnerability, which we had never done because most of our lives, our love and , especially our pain was communicated through silence. Just pretending that we're not hurting because we don't wanna hurt the other person. Very Asian. It was hard, very Asian, but it was also really healing. Miko Lee: Wow. I would love, love, love a follow up episode with you interviewing your mom. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. I don't if request that. Miko Lee: I dunno if she'd be downed for that, but that would, I'm curious if you could share a little bit more about your needing to have your back toward her in the beginning and if that shifted over those three hours. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. I think it was my fear of my truth being seen by her , and the inability for me to face her [00:12:00] when I knew my truth was hurting her. Hmm. And I also didn't want to pressure her to react in a certain way when I'm looking at her. So I, I, I don't know if she knew that I was looking at her through my phone. But I think I really wanted her to have an honest reaction and, that scared me. So I, and so at some point in. Yeah, I did turn around after I saw her crying. I paused the episode and I looked at her and I said, well, what's coming up for you? And she, her first thing, the first thing that she said was, I just don't remember it that way. Which started a whole nother conversation right around how she remembers my childhood, from her vantage point. And I think it's only natural for a parent, for anyone to want to know that their child, was not [00:13:00] hurt by their choices and that they did the best that they could and that was enough. And I think it's really hard to make space for the possibility that their best. Also cause harm. Hmm. Without making them, one dimensionally a bad person or a bad mother. I think holding multiple truths like that can be so difficult , for anyone, but especially when it comes to the impact that our action has on our loved ones. Mm-hmm. So I think it was truly, shattering the image of what she thought was our childhood. And rewriting an entire history in her mind, in order to make space for my reality. And I think that took a lot of courage on her part, and also a lot of grace, that she had to extend to herself and me. Miko Lee: And by the end of that three hours, did you have a sense of resolve or a different [00:14:00] path moving forward? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think we didn't come to a hundred percent agreement on what happened, which I didn't expect. But there was certainly things that were said that we had never verbalized before around what was hard, what was painful, and what we kept from one another. And I think we needed time away from each other to really process that. So I think we did the best that we could. Actually that night we went to a concert together 'cause we already had tickets and we could not go. And we went, Miko Lee: what was the concert? Michelle MiJung Kim: We went to a K-pop concert, Bada, which is Miko Lee: Oh yeah. Michelle MiJung Kim: All like dancing. Miko Lee: Love her. Michelle MiJung Kim: So we just let out all of our angst , dancing and that was a good end to our night. Miko Lee: That's a great way to actually resolve dance it out. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, exactly. We just dance it out. And then, at first it was a little awkward, but, we got over it. Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] Afterwards, she listened to the podcast on her own with a transcript because her first language is not English. She really wanted to make sure that she understood what she listened to. So she had the transcript in front of her and she was looking up words that she didn't understand. She said that really helped her to understand more of what, I was trying to say. I didn't expect this, but weeks later she just randomly said, I am really sorry. I did the best that I could and I didn't know how much you were carrying. That changed everything for me. I didn't expect that kind of acknowledgement and validation from her when I was putting out this episode when I was writing it. I truly just wanted to do justice to my own truth and make space for my stories in ways that I'd never done before. But to then receive her acknowledgement, of some of the things that [00:16:00] I talked about was. Truly invaluable and healing in ways that I didn't expect. That completely changed our relationship. I'm able to be a lot more honest with her and I feel less, guarded about, the most tender parts of me when I'm around her. Miko Lee: Wow, that's so powerful that one episode. How impactful. Thank you so much for sharing about that. the topics that rose to the top in your conversations? Every single one of them had such universality, the Oxford study then the talking about Gaza and the impact on your job, being friends with somebody that you disagree with politically, each of these topics, there's so much resonance. I'm wondering of the three pages you had to choose from, how did these float to the top? Michelle MiJung Kim: It was a tough one. I had a team that I talked to about which topics to prioritize and we all got votes [00:17:00] on which ones we wanted to talk about. Some I had to really push to get it in to the season. The one about, my open relationship journey, they were like, why the hell do , we wanna talk about this? For me it was like, it's not about how to do open relationship 101 or how to do poly 1 0 1. It's actually about desire. Right. How we get in touch with our desire and practice wanting and being able to practice wanting that is at the core of that episode. I really wanna talk about it because no one else was talking about it. Miko Lee: I appreciated that episode because it was about autonomy. Like how do you hold on to who you are as an individual? To me, I didn't look at it as much about poly as much as it about who am I and how do I hold on to my belief in who I am even in the midst of being in a relationship. Michelle MiJung Kim: Absolutely. Exactly. I think I wanted to prioritize topics that weren't popular in terms of the public discourse, not 'cause [00:18:00] it's not something that people are grappling with, but because it's tricky to navigate. Because it requires a lot of nuance and often I think when we talk about desire or when we talk about personal wellness and self-development, it's so often done through the lens of, white co-opted, self-help culture. I wanted to do it in a way that felt more in alignment with my values around social justice. I picked the topics that were less explored through that lens, but also that, I felt were present in our public zeitgeist and in the cultural musings. Some of these topics were also timely. Like the one about my job loss due to Palestine or my struggle with my friendships that were breaking all over the place because of our political disagreement or the conversation around [00:19:00] abolition and conflict, navigating conflict in our own lives that map to our vision of the collective liberation Miko Lee: and the contradictions that we hold. Michelle MiJung Kim: Exactly, and the contradictions that we hold and that we have to make room for that often get, muted or disregarded because it's uncomfortable to talk about or that makes us feel less radical, less critical, less social justice-y And I think these are actually quite urgent topics that we need to talk about in order for us to create more, coalitions, more resilient relationships that is at the foundation of all of our organizing. Whether that is, you know. Or in our political work or personal, , living in alignment with our values. So I felt these were also timely conversations that needed to be had in a way that felt accessible, personal, and honest, that wasn't overly packaged up. So that people can [00:20:00] resonate with the raw struggles. Miko Lee: I also appreciate how you put listeners voices in at the end and just with their perspectives, because as you're talking about, for instance, the breaking up with friends because of political differences, then we're hearing other people's voices about their experiences. So how did you do those call out for those voices and did you identify specific topics you wanted colleagues to speak on? Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, so we did a call out for voicemails for every episode, and it was so important for me. I kept pushing our team to do it, even though we were running out of time and resources. They were like, no, we gotta cut this part out. And I was like, no, because the podcast is called, “I Feel that way too” and it's about, not just me, but how my story then gets reflected by the entire community. I wanted to make sure that the community voices become a part of this episode. I did a call out on my social media, on my newsletter, and it was actually quite hard to get people [00:21:00] to submit voicemails. I think people feel a lot of pressure to get it perfect. I asked my friends and they said they wanted to do it, but they were feeling pressured because they feel, they felt like they didn't know what to say and they wanted to say it in a way that felt professional. And so Miko Lee: come up with something profound. Michelle MiJung Kim: Exactly. They wanted to be profound and everything that we do, I think takes a level of courage. I really appreciated people who submitted their voicemails. Miko Lee: Yeah. Michelle MiJung Kim: We had voicemails coming from New Zealand, from Taiwan, from the United States from Canada, and so it was wonderful to know that there was a global sort of connection to these issues and the things that we are grappling with, and also knowing that we're none of us is really alone. Miko Lee: Speaking to the alone, we're living in such a time of isolation right now and where there's two different parties with really clear agendas and people are this way or [00:22:00] people are that way, and yet your title is, “I feel that way too”. Can you share a little bit about where that title comes from? Michelle MiJung Kim: I was part of my very first high risk direct action calling for an end to the genocide in Palestine, I was terrified and I decided to partake in it because I didn't know what else to do to process my anger and my desperation, watching what was happening unfold on my screen. I just felt like I had to do something more than what I was used to doing, whether it's donating or signing petitions or writing. There was a collective gaslighting during that time where the media outlets were justifying what was happening in Gaza. People were being, retaliated against for talking about Palestine. There was this overall, polarization between people who felt this [00:23:00] urgent need to do something about Palestine versus people who are living their daily lives as if nothing was happening. I went to participate in this direct action, I was surrounded by people who felt similarly, and after this really intense action took place when everybody was highly activated and charged because we had just seen our comrades be arrested and then released, and we were, just in our adrenaline. We all held hands to chant together collectively. And the chant went like this. ” Don't worry, I got you. I feel that way too. We'll get through together, we'll make our way through.” And when the chant leader said, I feel that way too, something in me broke and I just started weeping. In that moment, I just needed to feel like I wasn't alone in feeling this kind of [00:24:00] desperation, this type of pain and trauma, and anger towards our systems, and that just holding hands with complete strangers. Chanting, I feel that way too. Made me feel so much more grounded and hopeful and courageous to a point where I felt I was able to take more risks than I was comfortable with. So that's where, that's the origin of the phrase. I feel that way too, for our podcast. I just think back to that moment where I felt so seen, I felt so held and encouraged just by the sentence. I feel that way too. That's the kind of feeling that I hope to be able to gift to our listeners, whoever's listening to our podcast and whatever topic may be. I hope more people feel encouraged by the stories that we share and the way that we are creating space for us to be vulnerable and courageous together. Miko Lee: I [00:25:00] love that. So you're asking your audience to listen, feel connected to something else, be able to be part of a bigger movement. Are there other things that you want your audience to ponder or to take action on? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think the podcast really is about, community and courage. The podcast asks us to be courageous about identifying what we want, about how we want to live our lives, who we want to be, and being courageous enough to face the contradictions and make space for the collective, and connection. I would love more than anything for people to feel seen. But also feel encouraged to share their stories with people in their lives and to hopefully be able to take action together. I think the action of caring for one another in this vulnerable, honest way, the way that my mom and I got through that very difficult conversation. That [00:26:00] in and of itself is healing. Multiple generations of trauma. If we all could muster up the courage to practice that level of honesty and courage with one another, so much of our, need to heal can be met and so much more possibility emerges from that action. After airing some of the episodes, we also hosted a discussion session. Called the Courage Collective, where we got to discuss and unpack what came up for people after they listened to the episode, and that was incredible. Just being able to have a consistent space where people can meet provided that sense of community that we all need right now to be able to move in solidarity with our broader movement , and to sustain this very difficult, exhausting path that we're all walking in our personal lives, but also in our collective lives. I hope people can listen to the podcast and share with somebody that they wanna talk about the topics and keep the [00:27:00] conversation going in a way that can encourage you to take action that brings you closer to more community, more possibilities for our collective liberation. Miko Lee: Michelle MiJung Kim, thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. We're gonna put a link to the entire series in our show notes. where else can they find out more information about you and your work and your book. Michelle MiJung Kim: Everything you need to know about me on my website, www.michellemijungkim.com. You can sign up for my newsletter and follow me on social media, on Instagram at Michelle Kimkim or on LinkedIn. Miko Lee: Love it. Thank you so much for joining me. So now take a listen to the first episode of, “I Feel that way too.” Michelle MiJung Kim: The other day I was talking to my mom about my uncle, her older brother who has stage four lung cancer. My mom was [00:28:00] venting about how upset she was that her brother's kids weren't jumping at the opportunity to pay his hospital bills. She said he sacrificed his whole life for them. How could they do this to him? I mean, they have their own lives too, mom. One of them has a little kid. It's not exactly cheap to raise kids in Korea. So I don't know. It feels fair to me that they're talking about what they can or can't afford. My mom was not having it. She said they have their whole lives to be there for their kid, but their dad, he doesn't have that much time left. They should do everything they can to support him. Wait, were we talking about love or money? My mom knew there was a difference right after a few back and forths. I just asked her the question that I really wanted to ask. Do you think uncle feels like his kids [00:29:00] don't love him because they're not giving him money? It wasn't just a question about my uncle and his kids. It was a question about me and my mom. About love and sacrifice, after all, isn't our willingness to sacrifice the ultimate measure of our love. Hi, and welcome to, I Feel That Way Too, a podcast where we ask some of life's trickiest questions and together find the courage to unpack them one story at a time. If you've ever wondered how life could be different, but didn't know where to turn, I'm here to tell you, you are not alone. I feel that way too. Ever since I was young, I felt responsible for taking care of my single mom. You know, growing up seeing her sacrifice so much for [00:30:00] me and my younger sister. When I got older, I just thought, yeah, that's my job now. That's just what you do, right? Whether it was taking a soul sucking corporate job, or using my savings to relocate her from Korea. I took the responsibility for caring for her seriously. I took pride in it. Whatever sacrifice I had to make felt appropriate, given how much I love her and how much she'd given up to raise me. But as an adult, I've been struggling with this more and more. If the only way I can express my love is by showing how much I'm willing to sacrifice, then how can I ever prioritize my own desires and needs? What do I do with all the guilt and shame and resentment that comes from feeling burdened by this responsibility? Have I become so Americanized that the idea of al piety feels suffocating? Am I a bad daughter? I mean, [00:31:00] that's such a common experience. This can be even more complicated in immigrant families because often we have those values, right? Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Asian values, filial piety, or we see fism as a really big value in immigrant households. So putting other people first, prioritizing the family over the individual, that's a hedged core Coley. She's a therapist, writer, and founder of Brown Girl Therapy, the first and largest mental health organization for children of immigrants. I've been following her on Instagram for years now, and I love the fact that she's making mental health relevant and accessible for Asian Americans like me, like learning Speaker 3: about words like enmeshment. So enmeshment is this idea that there are very loose or no boundaries within. Relationship. So in the family system, if we're talking about families, there are no boundaries. There is research that suggests that immigrant families tend to be more enmeshed because they're actually trying to protect themselves and their loved ones, creating these insular communities and [00:32:00] families from harm from the dominant society. So it was adaptive initially, but of course, just because it's adaptive doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy. We can see now that that kind of loose boundaries can lead to people feeling really dependent on one another. So often that's it's hierarchical in immigrant families, so it's a top down of dependency, but then children are being dependent on more, depending on your birth order, your age, your gender, your being dependent on in different ways. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Becoming someone my mom can depend on was kind of my life purpose for a long time. My attention was always on what she needed and how I could provide that as a kid. I rarely asked my mom for anything that wasn't practical or necessary. She was a single working mom, and I could see how hard she was working just to keep us afloat. Instead, I tried to help however I could. I'd hand over my New Year's allowance from my aunties and uncles. Whenever we went out [00:33:00] to eat, I'd always check the prices on the menu to make sure I wasn't picking something too expensive. I worked hard in school, got good grades, and told myself, this is how I can help. I'll get into a good college, land a good job, and make enough money to take care of her. That's exactly what I did. Right after college, I jumped into corporate America instead of chasing my passion for social justice because. At the time, what mattered most was bringing my mom to the US and supporting her financially. And honestly, I was proud of myself for that, starting so young, being able to help my mom. It felt good. Looking back though, I realized that I never really let myself just want things, you know, like things just for me. And then in my thirties, something started to shift. I found myself really struggling with our relationship. I was having trouble differentiating my desires from her needs. Speaker 3: So in the Western world, we talk about [00:34:00] individuation. When you're an adolescent, you were growing up and you start to build your unique interests and you start to prioritize your friends and you start to be your own person. A lot of us immigrant children didn't really get that we were still expected to do X, Y, and Z, so we didn't really get that chance to individuate around that age, you know, as we're 12, 13, up until 19, 20, 21. And so a lot of us are doing that later in life. I work with clients who are 30, 40, 50 years old who are like, wow, this is the first time I'm doing something for myself. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: At every crossroads in my career, my decisions were often tied to one question. How will this affect my ability to support my mom? Can I quit my job? How much money do I need saved up to cover both of us for six months? Even little decisions like whether to make a frivolous purchase came with this gnawing sense of responsibility. That kind of mental math had become second nature, but prioritizing my own joy and [00:35:00] abundance. Well, that always came with a side of guilt. It felt like my entire life was split in two. One part lived for me and the other for my mom, and as I got older, the tension between the two only grew becoming harder to navigate and more emotionally draining. Sahe calls this parent child role reversal parentification. Speaker 3: At the root of it, there are two types of parentification. There's instrumental parentification, which is more about taking care. In more practical roles of the family. So maybe, you know, cooking for sick relatives or making sure your younger siblings were okay, or if you were a latchkey kid, left at home alone, you know, going to school one time, making your bed, all of these things that you had to do for yourself or for your family because maybe your parents were out working or just weren't able to do it. And then we have emotional parentification, which is more about taking on those emotional roles. So being the family mediator, maybe taking on the role [00:36:00] of a parent or a spouse for one of your parents, because either one parent isn't more present or because emotionally they don't have the type of relationship where they speak to each other more emotionally or vulnerably. So a parent might use a child to do that. It's also about generally managing your parents' feelings. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: One year after many years of working with my therapist, I mustered up the courage to set some financial boundaries with my mom. Not necessarily because of money, but because I needed to shed the guilt. That gnawing feeling that whatever I was doing was never enough and that there was always more to give. I thought if I can get my mom to tell me the exact amount that she actually needs, then I can finally know that I'm meeting her expectations and I don't have to wonder if I'm not doing enough. I could handle the financial responsibility, but I didn't wanna carry the emotional weight anymore. So one day at a [00:37:00] posh new Indian Fusion restaurant that I thought she'd like, I mustered up the courage to ask her, can you tell me exactly how much you need monthly so I can better budget my own finances? Up until then, I was paying her rent and giving her allowance in random amounts, paying for whatever needs arose at various times throughout the month. She was visibly perturbed by my question. Without looking at me, she said, just give me whatever you can. I insisted, no, mom, I want you to tell me what you need and want. She replied, I just want you to do what feels good and right for you. I said, I don't know what that is, so I need you to tell me. I was getting frustrated. She was getting uncomfortable, so I said. Okay, fine. So if I said $500 per month, that's okay with [00:38:00] you. She looked visibly worried. See, so you know what you need. Why won't you just tell me, make my life easier? She burst into tears. Why are you making me say an amount? You want me to feel shame? I already feel bad now. We were both cry, yelling. People at other tables were exchanging awkward glances. She said, don't make me say an amount out loud. I want you to support me because you love me and because you want to, not because I'm asking you to. At this point, my voice was near full volume, tears dripping down my face from knowing I had caused her pain, but somehow my untamed anger kept spilling out. Despite knowing full well that I had done enough damage to my mom's heart, I desperately needed her to see my pain too. I shouted, [00:39:00] I do love you, and I'm asking for your help. Why can't you just help me? I never got my mom to say an amount. It was as if I had spoken the very thing that needed to remain unsaid. By speaking the unspoken. I had broken the delicate dance we'd been doing for decades where love meant anticipating needs and quietly fulfilling it to save face. Where protecting meant pretending not to see the weight we each carried, because naming it would make it all too real. Silence had become our shared language of care, but now we were at a loss for words. We packed up our untouched food without speaking and left the restaurant, and I never brought up the topic again. And here I was wanting her to tell me exactly what she needed so that I could feel less [00:40:00] guilt for feeling like I'm not doing enough, even though I was doing a lot. Speaker: Mm-hmm. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: And so we were at this crossroads and we couldn't see past each other's pain and our own pain in being able to connect to one another. And since then I've been really hesitant to bring up. Any conversations around money or boundaries with her, because first and foremost, I'm terrified of her feeling like she's not loved. That somehow if I bring this up, she's going to feel more like she's a burden and she's going to stew in her own shame knowing that I don't think she has. Capacity and the skillset to be able to hold her emotions right now. And then I feel resentful that I have to think through what she needs before I can just be a child and tell her to meet me where I am for once. Right? Mm-hmm. And so then the cycle just continues and I am not sure I, I know how to get out of it. Speaker 3: Boundaries is such a like. Trigger [00:41:00] word for so many of us, right? When you hear the word boundaries, you're like, no. All of a sudden that door closes and you say, this is not something that's gonna speak to me. Because it has this reputation of being like, cut people out. Say no, protect yourself. And those narratives really don't speak to so many of us who come from collectivist backgrounds where. We want to maintain a lot of these relationships. We just don't want it to feel as bad as it does. And so disentangling and learning how to disentangle our feelings and our values from our parents is often the work I do with my clients. And it takes a long time, right? Because you are sitting down, sifting through a basically a pile of values, norms, expectations, feelings, and saying, okay, this one belongs to me. This one belongs to my mom. This one belongs to my dad. And trying to figure out. Where does that leave you, and how do we move forward and build the sense of self with things that actually feel true to you? And a lot of that work is painful. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Trying to disentangle my definition of love from my mom's isn't the only thing that's been painful to navigate. It's also the [00:42:00] realization that so much of my upbringing fundamentally shapes the way I live today. Speaker 3: At its best, parentification can lead to having a lot of pride developing really good work ethic, being really mindful of your role in your family and leaning into that. But at its worst, it can be a form of emotional neglect. And I think that's really important because in my work with children of immigrants, a lot of times a lot of us don't realize that we have different needs when we're growing up. And sure, maybe you had a roof over your head, maybe you were, you know, sent to school, maybe you always had food on the table. And these are really. Big significant needs that were met, but were you also cared for emotionally? Were you allowed to express your emotions? Were you modeled and nurtured emotionally? So just being taught that even emotions weren't something that was safe to have. And so in that way, that's when parentification can become a sign of emotional neglect. So as by definition, parentification is taking on adult-like roles or roles that are. Older than you are developmentally at a young [00:43:00] age. And it can lead to people pleasing, it can lead to perfectionism, it can lead to constantly, um, monitoring our parents or other people's emotions or feelings. Right? Those are very common long-term consequences of being parentified children because we've never really learned how to take up space. People pleasing, Sahaj Kaur Kohli: perfectionism, hyper vigilance. Yeah. I've been dealing with all of them pretty much my entire life. One of my core memories from when I used to live in Korea was being invited to a friend's house After school, we were supposed to do homework together, and her mom sat with us going over everything and helping us out. I remember feeling so reassured, like finally someone was helping me in the way that Mamie feel safe and cared for. And because I wanted to be invited back, I was always on my absolute best behavior. I didn't want her to feel like I was being a burden or a nuisance, so I made sure to take my shoes [00:44:00] off in the neatest way possible. I made sure to wipe off any crumbs off the table, and I even offered to do the dishes. Y'all, I was barely 10, but I felt like I needed to be, liked to be helped. The truth is. I am resentful. I resent that I never got to just be a kid. I'm angry that I couldn't tell my parents that I was sad or hurt or scared. I'm angry that I thought care and attention were earned. By making myself small, likable, and pleasant. I'm angry that I couldn't allow myself to rest or stumble because I knew there was no safety net to catch me and that I thought it was easier to not want than to be disappointed. But for the first time in my life, there is something I want [00:45:00] just for myself. I want to heal desperately. I want to shed this weight so I can finally be my most authentic, free, and expansive self without needing to prove anything to anyone. I want to access the safety, abundance, joy, and ease that I didn't have as a. Child. Talking to my parents about my childhood wounds feels really hard. Not only because I'm worried about how it'll make them feel, but because deep down I truly believe that they loved me the best way they knew how so? How do I even begin to tell them that their best wasn't enough to protect me from harm? How do I share that? I feel resentful for the child that I never got to have without breaking their hearts in the process. And the hardest part, even now, I catch [00:46:00] myself prioritizing their feelings over my truth. It is like this unshakeable sense of responsibility where their comfort feels more important than my pain. How do I even untangle that? Speaker 3: You deserve joy and peace and ease. I mean, ultimately so many of us aren't able to give ourselves permission to be able to work towards joy and peace and ease. 'cause we don't believe we're deserving of it. And that is a product of, you know, these family dynamics, but also guilt and shame and not knowing the difference between those two. And then feeling like we automatically are. Bad if we aren't constantly pleasing other people. So many of us also struggle with that, uh, binary mindset. You know, if I feel this way, it's wrong. If my parents are disappointed, I'm a bad child. And that's not true. We have to learn. And [00:47:00] you have to decide at what point you're willing to accept that it might not change. And then decide what you're willing to tolerate. And that's the acceptance in grief work that is so hard and grief, I call it grief for a reason. 'cause grief never goes away. There's no resolution in grief. It's learning to build a life around it. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Yeah, that's so real and so hard, that whole acceptance piece, right? Knowing that it's going to take time, but also that there may need to be a time where you start to accept, uh, your parents for who they are and what they have capacity for and what they don't. What's been really difficult for me is the acceptance of the reality. And my desire to heal, part of me feels like I can't heal until I get the acknowledgement, until I get the validation, until I feel seen in my entirety by my mom and by my dad. And sometimes I feel like that just sets me up for more disappointment and sense of betrayal and resentment because I [00:48:00] am not getting the very sort of human and childlike need from my parents. But knowing that that may never come, and I can't depend on that for my healing, but that's been really hard to accept. Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, that makes me really sad because I'm hearing you like deny yourself something that you deserve because you're still waiting for your parents to give you permission for it. When you can give yourself permission for it yourself, but for some reason you don't feel like you have enough agency or you're not allowed to be the one who decides I can heal. Even without my parents' acceptance. And that's a lot of the inner child like re-parenting work of like, you know, thinking about little Michelle and what she needs and how do you give it to her. How do you find power and strength in being able to be the adult who can say, fine, if you're not gonna take care of this little girl I am. I'm gonna take care of her. And it's really hard, right? And it's really painful, but. [00:49:00] It hurts me to hear you say that you won't be able to do this until you get that permission, because the reality is you may never get that acceptance and acknowledgement you're looking for from them. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: In high school, when I came out as bisexual to my dad, he just ignored it. He pretended he didn't hear me change the subject, and that was that we never talked about it again. And honestly, I was fine with that at the time. He didn't wanna hear more and I didn't want to share more. We lived under the same roof, but how much did we really know about each other? Anyway, fast forward many years later, I was on my way to a date with a woman I just met. I was on the phone with my dad and thought maybe this is a chance to let him in on my life, just a little. So I told him where I was going and casually asked, what would you do if I ever brought a girl home? I don't know what I [00:50:00] was expecting to hear, but I definitely wasn't prepared for his answer. Don't come home. He said Speaker 3: It's very challenging and I think I just recently had these conversations with a couple clients of mine where, you know, sometimes we have to ask ourselves. The greatest gift we can give people we love is letting them see us for all parts of ourselves, right? Every part of who we are. That's the greatest gift we can give someone we love. And not everyone deserves that gift, especially if they're not tending to it, nurturing it. And I see you like, as like a younger version of you, like vulnerable and raw and saying, love me, love me, love me. Mm-hmm. It's not just you, it's it's all of us. Right? We, we have these experiences. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: It wasn't until one Thanksgiving back at my dad's house that I realized just how much I did crave my dad's acceptance and love. Thanksgiving is one day [00:51:00] that we all gather at my dad's house. We ordered a Thanksgiving family meal from Boston Market that no one really likes chit chat and eat for no more than 40 minutes and migrate over to the living room to watch a movie of someone's choosing, usually me or my dad. This has been our way of bonding for as long as we started gathering. The movie that my dad, the same man who stonewalled me when I came out to him in high school, chose for us to watch, was Boy Erased a movie about a gay man's search for acceptance from himself and his family without making eye contact. He said, have you seen this? I thought you might like it. It's about a gay person. As someone who's never been interested in anything L-G-B-T-Q related, this was his clumsy way of inching closer to me. My dad didn't throw me a coming out party. He didn't wear a rainbow pin or proclaim how proud he was to be an ally. [00:52:00] There was no tearful heart to heart about acceptance, apologies, forgiveness, or unconditional love. And you know what? At that moment I realized. I didn't need any of that. Sitting side by side on that Costco couch of his, I understood exactly what his silence was trying to say. Speaker 3: And that's what happens in high context cultures, right? It's not about being direct, it's not about being explicit. It's more about what the contextual clues are. I think behaviors is where it all comes down to. So that might have been your dad's way of saying, I accept you and the way that I know how, and me watching this with you is my way of showing that in the same way that my dad. Never growing up or through my thirties, only recently started to say, I love you. But growing up I would go home and he would leave me newspaper clippings about mental health or about something I had told him about and those would be on my bed every time I would visit home. And that's, I knew, was his way of saying, I love you. [00:53:00] Right. We have the cut fruit anecdote that everyone has in an Asian household. Our mom's way of loving us is through food and by caring for us and caretaking for us. 'cause that's the role they knew how to play. I even had an interesting conversation with my mom where I've asked her, I think this was a while ago, where I asked her, what else do you wanna do? Like stop trying to do my laundry when I come home. Get out of the kitchen. We'll just order food. But then I realized it made her sad and I realized I was actually taking away her agency to love me in the way she knew how. Because that's not how I need to be loved. I've also asked my parents, did your parents ever say, I love you? When was the first time or the last time you, you heard them say that to you? What was that like for you? Oh, that must have been really sad that your parents didn't even say, I love you. You know, that impacts kids. And then using that as a frame of like. Are you thinking about how you don't do it with me? Like sometimes it takes these little kind of games before we can get to a place where we feel like we can get that conversation going. But even then, where can we find beauty in the relationship with our [00:54:00] parents? I'm sure if we, you know, really wanted to dive deep into it, we would. You would be able to think of like strengths in your relationship with your parents, ways that they do love you or see you even if it's not what you want. The way that they love you is still a way that they are showing you that they love you. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: When I think about my younger self, I sometimes find myself imagining my mom and dad when they were young, what were they like growing up? How many crushes did my mom have as a teenager? When did she start sneaking cigarettes? And what made her start? Who was there for my dad when he lost his dad as a child who told them they were loved? When was the last time someone asked them about their hopes and dreams? What did they long for? Growing up in Korea with my mom, she often told me her parenting philosophy. [00:55:00] I want us to be like friends. She'd say, she'd tell me stories about how she was always afraid of her mom, how strict my grandma was. How she never got the chance to fully explore her passions and curiosities. One day when I was in elementary school, she just said, you're not going to school today. And instead of taking me to school, she drove me and my sister to a farm outside the city. She told us real life experiences are more important than what you learn in textbooks. She didn't want us to live inside the same box. She'd grown up in. She wanted something different for us. She'd say things like, date as many men as you can before you marry. Travel as much as you can while you're young. Learn to drive as soon as you can. More than anything, she wanted us to be free freer than she ever got to [00:56:00] be. The way my parents love me and the way I love them. It's not something you'd find in some textbook. It's messy. It's complicated. It's nuanced, and it's big. It's so big. It is not the kind of love you see in those Hallmark movies where a white parents hug you and say, I love you at least 15 times a day. But I feel it. I feel it in the everyday moments, like when my mom insists on doing my laundry with her permanently sore back, or when she likes every single thing I post on Instagram. I feel it every time she sees me and says, you're so pretty with genuine awe in her eyes.[00:57:00] Michelle MiJung Kim: If you liked what you heard today, please tell your family. Tell your friends. Tell your people. Subscribe to our show and leave us a review. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Wanna hear more from me in Sege? Watch the full interview on the I feel that way. Two YouTube channel. And while you're at it, subscribe to our newsletter on our website at www dot I feel that way. Two.com. Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great [00:58:00] night. The post APEX Express – 9.18.25 – I Feel That Way Too appeared first on KPFA.

Would you eat M&M's off the road? I would!

Some great questions this week about planning for the loss of the personal allowance, investing in GIAs, persuading an aunt to write a will, and much more besides! Shownotes: https://meaningfulmoney.tv/QA26  01:11  Question 1 Dear Roger and Pete, I enjoy listening to your show driving to work. You are both down to earth and humble with your opinions. I read a lot on finance and have been investing in stocks and share ISA since 2004 and VCTs since 2017. I have built a healthy portfolio of nearly 300k in VCT, 400k in Stocks and share ISA. I also have a healthy DC pension of roughly 700k and DB pension worth around 10k per year from age 60. I am approaching 50th birthday this year and so decided to use up some of my cash savings which is in excess of my target investment of 20k in ISA and 50 k in VCT(as unable to go over 10k in pension (due to annual allowance threshold). I know I am fortunate and I also live frugally as that's my nature and don't have too many wants. The question is if I have roughly 80k in mortgage and I have the ability to clear it, should I invest that 80k in VCT on top of my regular VCT allocation of 50k and get the 30% tax benefit(as I am unable to get much tax benefit from my pension) or clear my mortgage as the mortgage is coming up for renewal and likely interest rate will be 4-4.5%. I am torn as I understand in my head that 80 k invested is better than clearing the mortgage over a 20-30 year time frame, but as I am going to be 50 and would like to clear the mortgage and have freedom to decide if I want to enter a life of FIRE or have the ability to FIRE if I get bored. However, I have kids in school and so unlikely I will FIRE until they go to university. Sorry about the long question. Thank you, Fred. 06:25  Question 2 Hello Pete / Roger, Great podcast! I hope karma holds true and all the good you give out back comes back to you both! Question: I am a higher rate taxpayer who maximises their pension, stocks & shares ISA and other best tax sheltered places so need to also build wealth in a taxable GIA. What is best strategy for a higher rate tax payer to do this... dividend / income generating stocks or accumulating (non dividend paying) investments and pay CGT at some stage (regularly)? Thanks, appreciated as ever and hope may help others Ivana  10:43  Question 3 Hi, Nick (who I assume will read this first), Pete and Roger, I'm not sure if this is a suitable question for the podcast but here goes. How can we persuade an aged aunt that she needs to write a will, as us knowing what her wishes are is not sufficient. I have an aunt who has no children but she has said she wants her estate split equally between her 8 nieces and nephews but she refuses to make a will. The problem is that if she dies intestate there is an estranged brother who would be a beneficiary as far as we understand  and so what she wants to happen won't happen. Richard J 15:50  Question 4 Hi Pete and Rog My husband and I have been MM diehards for many years. We think It's a sad reflection of the state of nation when David Beckham gets considered for a gong before Pete does! I wanted to ask you about UK T-Bills because they are rarely (if ever) mentioned in your discussion of financial instruments. We are at retirement age I have a few DB pensions and a SIPP with Interactive Investor of approx. £300k. About ½ is sitting in Cash (including short term money market funds) because we want to draw out our 25% tax free allowance within the next 2 years and we want to minimise risk until that time arrives. I still want to diversify my low risk investments  as much as possible into bonds but my experience of bond funds is that they can also drop significantly with economic conditions whereas we want something to deliver us a (near as possible) guaranteed return. Our platform (ii) allows us to purchase bonds on the primary market however they are too long-term for us to see them through to maturity given our timescales. The platform has started to release UK T-Bills which seem typically much shorter term (3 or 6 months) and therefore appear to give us what we are looking for (guaranteed rate at a decent %) and very low risk. I know the % return is determined by the ‘auction' but it currently looks to be around 4.5% on average (especially the 3-month ones). We plan to apply the bond ladder concept and buy these T-bills over the next few years on a rolling basis. As they are very short term, if rates drop we can change our strategy mid-plan so I think it also gives us a degree of flexibility too. Have we overlooked something obvious as it seems to fit our needs perfectly for the next couple of years? We are very hands-on on the platform so we don't mind getting stuck into the action process (which looks straightforward). I'd be interested if you had any additional insight / comment on T-Bills being used for this or other strategies. Regards, Gilly 22:55  Question 5 Hi Pete, Roger, Thank you for the podcast, I always look fw to listening to it on my Wednesday commute. I'm trying to figure out when it makes sense to accept paying more income tax versus increasing my pension contributions? My total compensation this tax year is estimated to be £125k meaning I will lose all of my personal allowance with an effective 60% marginal tax rate on the last £25k of my earnings. Part of my compensation is made up of RSUs and very predictable quarterly bonuses. My base salary is approx £85,000.Last year, my total compensation was £105k, with a smaller base salary. My pension contributions kept my taxable income below £100k. I do not have any children, so the loss of funded childcare is not a concern. I've been contributing 15% for the last 5 or 6 years, starting when I was earning about half what I earn now. I chose that percentage to bring earnings under the 40% threshold at one point. At the start of this tax year, I increased my pension contributions to 20% because my income increased and I had no immediate need for the extra money. My employer only matches up to 5%. I am in my mid 30s and have roughly £140,000 split between my SIPP and my current workplace pension. Both invested in 100% equities in a global fund. I am considering increasing my salary sacrifice from 20% to around 30%, to keep my taxable income below 100k to avoid the loss of personal allowance. I'm hesitant because, playing around with the compound interest calculator, starting with a £140,000 balance, contributing £1,700 per month (20% salary sacrifice), and assuming a 7.5% return (which may be slightly optimistic), I would end up with a pension pot of about £1.5 million at age 55. Which might be too much. I have £80k in my stocks and shares isa, also in global equities and I'm on track contribute 20k this tax year.  I own a flat with a mortgage, fixed at less than 2% for a couple more years with no interest in over paying. I'm worried I might end up with too much money left when I (eventually!) die, I have no kids and I am not interested in leaving a legacy. Shall I just accept the tax bill and increase my lifestyle today given I'm already saving enough that I know I will be comfortable later in life. I read die with zero a year or so ago, and it resonated with me a lot. What else is there to consider? Thank you, Mark. 29:15  Question 6 Dear Pete & Roger, I have one question on my financial planning. This year I had received extra bonus which lead to my salary at the end of tax year of £123k. I have contributed £17k to my pension using employer contributions but remaining £6k is through my company stock which was vested and I got £3.1k income after paying 47% tax. My question is as my salary threshold for this tax year crossed £100k, for this additional £6k do I need to submit self assessment and if yes, do I need to declare this £6k full stock amount completely as a separate income even though I already paid tax on it, does this mean I am also liable to pay capital gains tax on this £3.1k? I look forward to hearing from you what are my options to submit to HMRC through my self assessment so I can calculate if I owe any additional tax or HMRC will refund me some money due to £17k pension contributions? Many thanks, Vai  

Tiff and Dana take a close look at a practice that wanted to get a handle on its growth. They discuss knowing numbers inside and out, forming a growth plan, keeping your team involved in any expansion. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am just so excited. It is Friday today. I don't know what day you're listening to this or what day it will drop, but you know, these are prerecorded. are not live. So that is not a shock to you. This Friday is almost ending. I think we've got a couple hours left under our belts for both of us, but I get to end it with Ms. Dana and I have missed you, Dana. I was on vacation last week and I feel like I barely saw you the week prior. And then this week has been crazy for both of us and   I love our time together. think I scheduled this extra time just to chat next week because I miss you so much. So, Dana, you're rocking this outfit today. I told you that this morning on our morning huddle. Yes, we do morning huddles. And this cut you've got on your hair, I've told you already, but I freaking love it. You look stellar today. So welcome to Friday, Dana. How are you?   Dana (00:51) Doing good. I'm excited to end, well, almost end my day with you two. I'm excited. I know we probably don't want to get into it on this podcast, but I can't wait to hear about your trip. And, you know, I'll take as much tip time as I can get. So I'm super excited to be here and to be able to chat with you and to maybe help some people too while we're at it.   The Dental A Team (01:13) ⁓ thank you. Thank you. know I did. I scheduled our time next week and I was like, that's our catch up time. But I can say I did figure out I know you recently went on a cruise. ⁓ I am not a cruiser. It's not my jam. So I figured that out. But it was a great sampler platter and I fell in love with Italy. So we'll say that and I've got a lot of stories. I literally yesterday I was like, I need to like, type these out or write them in a journal or something because you know, in 10 years, I'm gonna forget half of them and there are just so many stories out of   the nine days that I was gone. So I'm excited to chat with you. And we can share our cruise stories, I guess, right? They're wild. Cruises are wild. Cruise people are a little wild. If you're out there listening, like you're a little wild. I don't know about these 11 PM, like bingo nights and stuff. I'm like, guys, it's wild. But here we are.   Dana (01:59) Yeah. I left mine   feeling like you. not necessarily, I don't think that like I put it at the top of my list. Would I do another one maybe? But I don't think that it's at the top of my preferred methods for traveling.   The Dental A Team (02:15) Same, same,   same. But you know, Vegas isn't on my top list either. And it kind of felt like Vegas on water. So maybe it's me. I said 10, 15 years ago, you know, in my young years, I would have been all about it, you know, and I would have stayed up all night and gone to Rome the next morning. But at the age that I'm at now, not so much, not so much. I'm tired. My kid puts me to bed every night at like 8.15. He's like, all right, mom, we're part and ways. I'm like, you're right. I'm falling asleep on the couch. Let's go. So.   Dana (02:43) you   The Dental A Team (02:44) Anyways, anyways today, ⁓ Dana, I'm here to pick your brain. You've had, you've had monster success. think all of our consultants have had a lot of success, but you've had some pretty monster success with a few practices that you've got a load of practices under your belt, ⁓ over the years and currently working with quite a few rock stars and some that have come back around because they miss Dana so much. So, you know, if you're out there and you're missing Dana, you guys, she's still here.   We love her and we're keeping her. She's not going anywhere. But you have actually worked with, ⁓ a few of us have worked with clients out of the country too. And you specifically, you've worked with a handful. I think you've probably worked with more than any of us have out of the country. So today's conversation is kind of fun because it is chatting a little bit about somebody who's out of the country, like their successes that they've had. not in the United States, but.   for one, kind of notifying everybody out there, especially our Canadian listeners here. We do work with clients in Canada all the time. And Dana is actually a super stellar. She's trained a lot of us on a lot of things she's learned. And we've all been able to really kind of figure out how to manipulate some of our US standards and our ideas and our protocols and really translate them towards Canadian. And I think the biggest pieces in the Canadian world there are the billing.   and the way the claims go out and the things that you're able to build and collections processes, things like that. But we've kind of got that down. Dana did a ton of work with this practice in regards to that. So today's actually super fun because it's also really cool to see, I think Dana, I think it's awesome to see that like business is business. I say that all the time, like I don't care what your company is. We've worked with CPAs, we've worked with ⁓ podiatrists, we've had...   you know, chiropractors that we've consulted because business is business protocols or protocols. So it's really cool to see that even dentistry outside of the country, so many of the systems and the protocols that we use every single day that I would say some of us take for granted are totally transferable. So today's conversation, I really wanted to dive in and kind of pick your brain, on how this client was able to see so much success. They were really, they're really a fantastic client. And I know that they implement really well.   ⁓ And that's a huge piece of the success, you guys. If you come and we give you the tools and you don't implement them, I can't do it for you, right? So Dana, I know this client does really well in that aspect, but I mean, you took them, I mean, I'll let you tell the story, but their production, their collections kind of skyrocketed once you started really cleaning up some of those systems. Where do you feel like was the best starting point? Like I know you had like Keaton on,   on some things we always do, what was our journey like?   Dana (05:32) ⁓ The first thing is this office came in and they were they were doing well, right? They weren't sure how well they were doing though. So we really really started with numbers. ⁓ Knowing numbers inside and out, knowing expenses inside and out, knowing what goals should be. ⁓   you know, even knowing where payroll expenses were sitting and things like that. So it first first started with number review. So that we basically knew how well they were doing to be able to kind of put projections in place and look at growth trajectory and talk about like what growth should be or could look like. But it started really with honing in on those foundations and getting the doctor to understand.   their numbers and what they were telling them as far as ⁓ growth and opportunity that there were for the practice. So we really, really started in with that. We did create a scorecard so that they could look at numbers every ⁓ month. We looked at trends together and really, really got them comfortable in what the numbers told them. then it was like, okay, I'm ready for the growth, right? I can see, I think some doctors come in and it's like, well, I feel like I'm doing okay. And I feel like I want to grow, but I actually don't know if I can grow.   because I don't know like what my foundation is. So that was really, really eye opening. The other thing was this doctor was working a ton of time and didn't necessarily have any time to work on the business, right? It was always working in the business. So then it was taking the numbers and creating a plan to work them out of the business at least one day a week ⁓ and to also then create some admin time.   within the rest of the week. getting them to have those pieces really allowed for them to have discussions on what a growth plan.   looks like and it kind of helped us take off from there. So looking at the numbers, we realized, you know, the number of patients that they had, he really couldn't serve on, you know, solo. So then we started looking at associates and bringing in associates to the practice. And then when associate schedules started to get full, was like, what's next? And so then it was adding surgery services and sedation and getting hospital days. And so it was really, really fun. And then we got to a certain   point of growth and it was like, this is so much for me to manage. And then we built a leadership team. So there was just a lot, a lot of pieces that happened. ⁓ But honestly, and truly practice came in at about 3.2 million and was projected to end that year at five. Right. So it was a ton of growth, but it honestly and truly started with knowing the numbers and knowing where the potential was and what we needed to do, what levers we needed to do to pull to make growth really happen.   The Dental A Team (08:02) Well.   Mm-hmm. That makes sense. makes so much sense. So the projections and that growth plan that you did with them, how did you project that? So to know that you could take them from that 3.2 that they probably didn't even know they were accomplishing. It sounds like they were successful, but like you said, they didn't know their numbers. They didn't know how successful, which happens, think, a lot for our clients. We attract clients who are doing well and just don't know the space that is left to target.   So how did you help them find that within that growth plan?   Dana (08:47) Yeah, we first started just looking at like patient number because it was feeling like yes, they were doing well, but you know being like schedules were jam-packed. So looking at active patients and actually saying hey you do need to actually grow your hygiene department.   right? So to be able to serve the patients you already have within the practice. So then we really honed in on how many, how much hygiene time do we actually need, right? For this practice. And then looking at, and this is one thing that like where Canada does differ in their billing, especially for hygiene, they, can bill for time, right? We bill for services in the U S they can bill for time. And it does still illustrate a point though, that when we're billing for what we're doing time or not time, right? It's important. So making sure that there are standard billing.   and for the US, right, it's not necessarily billing, it's actually like perio and what we recommend in the time that we have with the patient, but really getting them calibrated on that and really getting them all moving in the same direction.   And then I was expanding the hygiene department. Once we've expanded the hygiene department, then we needed the providers. We needed the providers to do the restorative dentistry since we expanded the hygiene department. So we really started with hygiene and started with adding hours there, really making sure that we fine-tuned the billing process so that, know, hygienists were producing really what they should be producing for their time. And then adding, again, the doctors in there for the restorative that came out of hygiene was just kind where we started.   started.   The Dental A Team (10:16) Awesome. And it sounds like they were at a space then where I think a lot of doctors get to, or a lot of practices get to where it's either I'm good and I'm going to like steady eddy this and I'm just going to, I'm going to stay where I'm at, or I want to continue growing. And I think a lot of doctors get to that space and they think I'm supposed to continue growing. And that's not a hundred percent always the case. It's not necessary. You should continue to grow to keep up with inflation.   obviously, but I think ⁓ something that needs to be said is you don't have to add more hygiene. You don't have to add more doctors. You don't have to do all of those things. But if you want to continue to grow, you want to continue to see those ⁓ numbers increase the way this practice is did, that's a great step to take. And being able to first see all of the patients that you have currently, ⁓ not even including, it sounds like any new patients, we're just   trying to handle the current load, I think is fantastic. And then like you said, it sounds like you did a decent job really honing in, not just the billing, because we want to bill for time, right? I get that. But also honing in their peri-o protocols. while you're increasing, well, we added, you know, added associates. But while you guys were increasing the value on the doctor's side over there, you made sure, it sounds like that.   hygiene was able to keep up with the increased production on the doctor side. And I think that gets missed a lot, Dana, where it's like skyrocketing doctors and we're like, why is hygiene at 12 % of our production now? Well, because we forgot to focus on them. And I think that's something you guys did really well. And I'm sure your hygiene background helped you see that this is an important space. those perio protocols really, really helped, I'm sure. And how did their team do?   Dana (12:05) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (12:07) A big scare I think doctors have is getting hygienists on board. Our hygienists have a scare of maybe changing their thought process on a lot of those pieces. How did this practice do with implementing those changes in their period department?   Dana (12:22) They did a really, really good job, but I will say when we decided to kind of tackle that, we really booked out a set of meetings where they really were able to work through it, to look at each other's patients, to look at what each other built, to look at what each other did for those patients, to pull x-rays and FMPs and all of those things and really work through it together and really calibrate. ⁓ They had a series of, I think,   monthly meeting for four months and really really work through it together as well as at that point we had a leadership team and so having the lead hygienist really double check those things and have conversations with   you know, some hygienists initially took it on really strong and they did really well. Other hygienists didn't do quite as well, quite as fast. And so just having individual conversations, using some of the other hygienists as examples, and really letting those that were really strong give verbiage tips, give billing tips, give all sorts of tips to the hygienists who weren't as strong. And they really, really leveled up and learned from each other, which I was super proud of them for.   The Dental A Team (13:28) That's awesome. That's awesome. So the planning and the prepping, I think, is key and having those initial conversations, but then also having follow up. Because I'm sure some of those conversations were, like you said, seeing the other patients and being able to see those spaces. But I'm sure some of those conversations were like, how did this go for you? And what was your case acceptance? Or how many times have you talked about it? And how did that conversation go? And really kind of batting ideas back and forth. And I would venture to say you probably also   had those meetings set up for the doctors too, where they're calibrating. You've got your owner doctor and your two associates who are calibrating, especially as you brought on more dental surgeries and, you know, it looks like you guys worked on hospital privileges and all kinds of things for them. But I assume based on what I know is that those doctors had to calibrate as well. So he's not only training doctors, training hygiene, but they're all kind of training each other. Is that what you saw?   Dana (14:27) Yeah, it was. And that's why we really put leadership meetings in place. ⁓ And the cool thing about this growth, like you said, you get to a point where you kind of have to choose, right? Do you want to stay where you are? Do you want and he didn't want growth, right? But he didn't want to necessarily take on more dentistry. And I think that was a key thing to really talk about is what does that long term picture for you look like so that as we build it, gets you to those points. And so we knew it meant bringing on other doctors, we knew it meant expanding services in some ways to get them   massive amount of growth that was wanted, but without it being him, right? Because, like, young kiddos family, like wanting to just prioritize that and have days away and, you know, totally understand that but how can we still have growth and have that happen?   The Dental A Team (15:03) him. Yeah.   Mm-hmm, that's awesome. That's awesome. Now within that growth trajectory, and I know we have a lot of team members that listen, not only is this helping the doctor and the practice and the associate dentist and all of these different pieces, but it's also helping the team because I think when you have, that kind of a growth trajectory for a practice and you've got a growth plan set, you've got the goals set, this also trickles down into the growth of the team.   Right. And so I think something you mentioned, right, was the leadership team. so one, you don't always have to have a leadership team in place before you have the growth. First of all, because I think a lot of people are wondering like, what's the chicken? What's the egg? Which comes first. And it doesn't, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't, you can have one, but you don't have to wait for the growth. You don't have to until you have one. Right. But part of that growth trajectory and the growth planning was that leadership team.   Right? And so did you kind of help them timeline that and kind of figure out, well, when you get to this many patients, when you get to this many people, when you get to this, like this is where we need to bring somebody up. Did you help them timeline it and kind of org chart that and like job descriptions? How did you guys work that?   Dana (16:26) Yeah, OrgChart played a big piece in it because we knew like with this kind of growth you're going to need additional team members. I knew Leadership Team was a big piece because it just   didn't want everything to fall on owner doctor, right? So yeah, we did. We looked at org chart, we timelines, like when we were going to add new seats to it, what we might need for the future to get there. And that was really fun. Because I think when we build an org chart, we tend to just have it be like, well, what do I have? Right? Who do I have? And what do they do? And I build it based on that versus like, no, actually, what do you mean? Right? And, and what will you need in the near future? It's okay to build an org chart for now and an org chart for the future. And then   The Dental A Team (16:56) Yeah.   Yeah.   Dana (17:08) map out how you get there. And so that is definitely something that came into play here and was super impactful ⁓ in the journey.   The Dental A Team (17:17) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I agree. That's amazing. So if we were to peel this back a couple layers for our listeners today who might be in a space where they're like, gosh, I don't know if I can grow. I have the capability and the capacity to grow? What would you say, Dana, is a first step for someone who's really in that space or even trying to figure out if they want it or not?   How did you, like what's that first step look like with your practices that you've worked with or this one specifically that you're like, is where we start, this is how we see that.   Dana (17:52) ⁓ I think that first it becomes like the vision. Where do you want to do? What kind of growth do you want if you even want growth, right? And what I mean by growth is like getting bigger, right? Or getting larger. And what are the pieces that you want? And then secondary to that, and I think in conjunction with that, knowing your numbers and where the health of your numbers stands so that we can kind of align those pieces together. ⁓   The Dental A Team (18:04) Yeah.   Dana (18:21) And I think that those are the two key foundational pieces that I think really helped to drive this doctor too.   The Dental A Team (18:27) Awesome, awesome. So it's kind of looking at where do you want to go? And then looking at what you're capable of right now. What have you done? And I think that gap in between, then you have to kind of figure out, well, if we're doing 3.2 now and I want to do 5 million, how do I get that 1.8 in the middle to get to that 5 million? And then that kind of backtracks into, well, how like financially, right? So dollar per hour, doctor's dollar per hour. How many chairs do we have? What's our dollar per chair?   per day, what's our daily goals, of figuring that out. And then time-lining, I know that's, you know, I did a ton of time-lining for a practice that just grew like crazy. And I was like, okay, by this point, you're gonna need this many people. But knowing that gap in between to be able to set some parameters to really see how far you can go. ⁓ And I guess maybe action items for today would be.   Go look at your mission, your vision, your core values, make sure that you're in alignment still. Those change, you guys, they change constantly. What you wanted 10 years ago is probably very different than what you want today, and that's okay. You don't have to stick with the business plan you set out with when you first started. I think, Dana, you're 100 % spot on. Go look at that mission, that vision, make sure that it is in alignment, and then figure out where do you want to go, and then what does that mean? And if you need help with that, hello at the TheDentalATeam.com., we're always here for you, you know that.   But really figuring out what that means and then looking for that gap so that you can project and look to see. There's a lot of prep work that we didn't talk about today that goes into adding associates. So I would hate to blindly walk into anything and just tell people that an associate is a great idea. I don't think that it's a horrible idea whatsoever, but you have to be prepared and there's a lot that goes into that. just build out your plans. If it's something that you look at and gosh, maybe it's 500,000.   You want to make an additional million next year. Look at the hours in your schedule. Are you capable of that? And maybe there's some scheduling tweaks that we can make. We have found in many, practices just implementing blocked scheduling increases $5,000 a day. We have seen crazy amounts of money come into the production just by fixing the scheduling. And I think I've ventured to say that this practice had to do some of that as well.   and really, really maneuvering what those schedules might look like. this is great, Dana. Thank you so much for all the work that you do with all of the clients that you see, the work you do with our consulting team, and you're constantly finding new avenues and helping us to expand our entire team. So thank you for that. Thank you for sharing this today and just sharing all your love with everybody, Dana. I appreciate you.   Dana (21:11) Anytime, thanks for having me.   The Dental A Team (21:12) Of course, of course. All right, guys, go do the things. Mission, vision, core values, peel back those layers, really look for those gaps. And then I would say look at your open hours. I found a ton of money just sitting there, like, could have been, could have been gotten for so many years for so many doctors that was just open hours and mismanagement of schedules. So double check those things. Drop us a review, you guys. We love those five stars. We love to hear what you loved. We love to hear ideas that you have.   You know I always say people really do read those so go do it. And Hello@TheDentalATeam.com we are always here to help you and if you want to sign up for a free practice assessment it's on our website TheDentalATeam.com. You guys we will help you figure out what your next best growth movement is whether it's with us or without us we don't care we just want to give you the tools. So thank you all and I hope you have a great day.

Sqwigmarr has multiple strange encounters, new MM songs. blah blah blah. I dont wanna write this one out... lol.   Livestream here! subscribe or save: twitch.tv/derlincountybrando or links here!

Meet Dr. Tamir Qadree who grew up one of 11 children in a 2-bedroom apartment in Chicago. When I asked him how 11 children and two parents lived in an apartment with only 2 bedrooms his response was that it is all about family. We all made it worked, and we all learned to love each other. Tamir heard about California before high school and wanted to move to that state. A brother, 8 years older than Tamir, was recently married and agreed to take Tamir to California since this brother and his new wife were moving there. Tamir always had a “servant attitude” toward others. He felt that he could learn to help others and, after attending some community college courses he decided to go another route from school. Tamir always felt he was selling and in sales. He tells us about that and points out that we all sell and receive results from others who sell in whatever we do. Dr. Qadree eventually discovered metaphysics which is about self-help and learning to adopt a mindset of improvement through self-analysis. We discuss this in detail as you will hear. Tamir offers many good life pointers and lessons we all can adopt. This episode is pack with useful ideas that we all can use to better our lives. About the Guest: ‘The Dean of Dynamic Results' “The Dean of Dynamic Results” has a Double Doctorate in the field of Metaphysical Philosophy, specializing in personal development coaching, mentoring, mind, and mystical research. The Powers of the Mind, Influence and Attraction has captured the minds and imagination of the world over the past 35 years. Dr. Tamir Qadree is a leader in the field of this study, and says that, “WE Can All Achieve Dynamic Results”! Tamir is the author of several books, audio programs. He conducts workshops, 2 day retreats and does one on one, exclusive coaching. His clientele has ranged from business developers in the fields of Network Marketing, Direct Sales, Real Estate, Legal, the Medical Professions, and Self-Help enthusiastic individuals, both nationally and internationally. Dr. Tamir Qadree, (Also known as TQ) carefully guides his audience and clients through the vast field of sales psychology, effective closing skills, prospecting mastery and all of the necessary communication skills needed in today's world. He also teaches and demonstrates the connection between ‘The Results the Reader or Listener Gets,' and his or her ‘Emotional States and Habits.' Tamir teaches his students how to ‘Feel' rather than to simply ‘Reason' everything through. He teaches that, feeling is more about ‘Intuition' while reason is often about ‘Ego' and knowledge gleaned from books on one level; but when they are both combined (Feeling and Reason) you have your road map to success and contentment. Tamir Qadree, writes with clarity, precision, and direct language, that is easy to read, simple to follow and are full of great content. His podcast, (Dean-Cast) are usually not planned. They flow from inspiration and direct knowledge from experience. What you read and listen to in his array of programs are genuine, authentic, and straight from ‘The Dean of Dynamic Results himself.' The information Tamir delivers, whether from audio book, eBook, audio programs or Dean-Cast, or Live Events, are carefully select and digested to bring to the reader, the listener, the audience, the best information. Often there are differences of opinion in matters of, ‘what to eat,' or ‘how to lose weight' or ‘scientific and technology.' These are all necessary to grow, to develop and to keep the mind moving and expanding. Welcome To The World of The Dean! Ways to connect with Dr.Tamir: New Podcast, "Dynamic Results On Fire!' Every Monday! https://tamirqadree.com https://learn.tamirqadree.com Https://coach.thedeanofdynamicresults.com dynamicyou@gmail.com (17) Dr. Tamir Qadree | LinkedIn (20+) Facebook Dr Tamir Qadree (@theresultscoach1) | TikTok (381) The 'Results' Coach - YouTube https://www.Instagram.com Ebooks and an audio program: Clear Vision – Mastermind Mastery Click and Grow Rich – Mastermind Mastery Super Potential – Mastermind Mastery The Esteem Success Factor – Mastermind Mastery About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I've told you all in the past about a program that I attend every so often called Podapalooza. And on the 19th, excuse me, the 18th of June, we had number 16 in the patapalooza series. And one of the people I got a chance to speak with was Dr Tamir Qadree. And Tamir is is our guest today. He calls himself or I want to find out if he calls himself that, or somebody else calls him that, the Dean of dynamic results. I want to hear more about that, certainly, but we're really glad that he's here. He has been involved in dealing with metaphysical philosophy. He's a coach. He does a lot of things that I think are very relevant to what we hear from a lot of people on this podcast. So I'm really looking forward to having a chance to chat with you. So Tamir, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:25 I'm glad to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me.   Michael Hingson ** 02:28 Well, we appreciate you coming and spending the time. We met Wednesday the 18th of June, and here it is the 24th and we're chatting. So that   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:37 works. That works out for me well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:41 so tell us a little bit about the early Tamir growing up.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 02:46 The early Tamir growing up, sure, interesting story that's always fun, because I grew up in Chicago on the west side, and during time I grew up, I grew up in in the 70s, that was coming out of the turbulent 60s of the youngster, then coming out of that, coming out of the the other protests and the civil rights movement and all that stuff. So I grew up in the 70s. Basically, life to me was a lot of it was. I had a lot of happy times in my life, although we had so called very little. My mom had a home with a partner with 13 children, 13 people at all times, two bedrooms. I don't know how she made that work, but she did. We had, we stayed cleaned the house. My like bleach. We smell like bleach. We smell like pine. Saw and so I got my my my cleanliness from that. I don't know how she did it. And we all ate, okay. And what I got from my childhood, me, my brother, we we've always been innovative. We've always been results driven, going out, knocking on doors. Before there was a Door Dash, we were knocking on doors, taking buying people's groceries, going to store for them. We're cutting their yards and doing odd things to earn money. So I've always been go get a results. Driven guy, not afraid to ask and looking to get the results, not just for the money, but the money was good to have. But I've always been like that. That's in a nutshell. Where I've always been,   Michael Hingson ** 04:18 well, how did you all sleep? 13 people in the apartment?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 04:22 Well, it was my mom, my dad, before they separated, and it was 11, and then plus cousins, so that's 14. Hey, you know, buddy Michael, you make it work? Yeah, people say how it's not how. I think why is a better question. Because you're a family and you can make it work. It can work easier than people think it can, because we have love and togetherness and closeness, and you have two parents that are on top of their game is doing the best they can do. It works. That's a very good question. And you're the first person to have asked me, how did that work? You're the first person.   Michael Hingson ** 04:56 Well, I can imagine that there are ways to make things work. Um. Um, as you said, you do have to be innovative, and you all have to learn that it's important to get along, and that's what family is really all about,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 05:09 that that's true and that we did not we had to get along. We live in a house with that many children, five boys and six girls, no six boys and five girls. I reversed it. You have to learn to get along. You have to learn to respect the different genders. You have to learn respect authority. You have to learn to share how to care for other people. Interesting about that, my mom would always bring people in from the street. She'd find people less privileged than us, believe it or not, let's we'll have one bathroom, by the way, less privileged. She would buy them clothes and feed them, and we abuse that person any kind of way we get it, where we get it? Okay, so I got that from also that's and that that leads me into how I am now.   Michael Hingson ** 05:53 Well, we'll get there. So you went to school in Chicago, and how long did you live   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 05:58 there? Why would the school I started high school in California? Okay? So California, okay? My freshman year in Cali. Yeah, California.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 So what caused you guys to move out to California?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 06:10 Well, my aunt came out maybe 20 years before. Then my sister came out. Two years after that, my sister came back bragging about California. Everybody in those days, everybody thought California the land of milk and honey, back in the Midwest and back east California, Judas, land of milk and honey. It really is. People will go California represented freedom to us, the promised land. It really did sort of a promised land thing. And I was just determined to get to California. My story, if I can tell you about me getting to California, we're in the household. I was 14. My sister had came and promised she'd take me with her. And I said, Okay, I'll go. I was her favorite, she promised. So I told everybody on the block, I'm going to California. 13 going on, 14 year old kid, and have people excited. He's going to California. Some were jealous, and I was telling people I would knock on their door and go and go pick up groceries for them and cut yards. And after the summer passed, my sister couldn't get me any people started laughing at me, Jeremy behind my back. He's not going to California. And some of my siblings were, of course, probably a little jealous, little envious. He's not going some people, yeah, you're not going anywhere. You stay down here with us, in this area, with us. And so I said, No, I'm going to California. And I watched this story the weekend before going to high school. My mother said she lied to you. She's not going to get you. She lied to you. You can give it up. My cousin said she lied to you. I said, No, I'm going to California. I had two pair of pants, one pair of shoes, two pair underwear and two shirts. That's all I had. I was going to go to school. Well, that Friday came, I said, I'm going to California that Friday. This is all summer. I've been saying that people started doubting me. My brother walked in the door. My older brother, eight years old, to me, walked in the door about an hour later and said, I just got married, me and my wife decided to go to California. Monday. You can come with us. That's why I got to California.   Michael Hingson ** 07:52 There you go. Well, and again, it's really cool that family sticks together somehow, Too bad your sister misled you, but you you made it work.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 08:05 Well, I don't think she so much misled me. She couldn't make it work. She wanted to do it. She couldn't find the finance, little time or the effort. She couldn't make it work. She didn't make it work. You know, she obviously lied to me. That's what they thought. But no, I don't think I never thought that.   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 Yeah, well, I understand. Well, at least you made it and you got to California. And so what did you find when you got out here?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 08:27 I found it to be what I thought it's going to be okay. I saw I was driving, we're driving. And came over the mountains. We saw the little the little lights on the freeway, the little on the road, the little reflectors. We're like, wow, there's diamonds in the streets of that night, right? With those reflected, we never seen nothing like that before. Wow. They're diamonds in the street. And then we look around like at San Jose, and I would see the lights up in the air. It was the mountains, with people living in the mountains, yeah, with the lights, we I thought, Oh, my God, this is heaven. I didn't know. Yeah, please know those houses the lights. So anyway, it was what I thought was going to be. Here's the land of milk and honey.   Michael Hingson ** 09:05 For me, sure. I'm not sure what caused my parents to want to move to California. We moved in 1955 right? In fact, I mentioned earlier, we did patapalooza on the 18th of June, and today is the 24th that is the day we're recording this. So you'll see when this actually comes out. But June, 24 1955 was the day we arrived in California from Chicago. And I don't know what caused my father to want to sell his part in the television repair business that he and my uncle owned and wanted to get a job in California, whether they thought it was the land of milk and honey or what I've never, never did learn. But nevertheless, we moved out to California, and I think there was a lot to be said for they wanted to be out here. They felt that there were a lot of opportunity. And probably they wanted to get out of the city, but we did. So I have now been out here, other than living in other places as an adult. Part of the time I've lived out here 70 years. 70 years. Well, we came out in 1955 we got here on June 24 1955 so it's pretty cool. But anyway,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 10:25 I wasn't born, but you beat me. Well, there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 10:28 Well, I think there's a lot to be said for California. It's, you know, I can make a lot of places work. I've lived in New Jersey, I've lived in Boston. I've lived in other places in Iowa for a little while and so on. And so I know there are places that are a lot colder than California, and where I even live in California, and there are places that are warmer but still enjoy it well. So you moved out to California when you went to high school here. And then did you did college. Where did you do college?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 11:03 Well, I did some community college at De Anza. I did some courses over there. Most of my learning came from self study, community college courses, self study and university. Finally, University of metaphysics. I got involved in metaphysics over 20 years ago, which is, metaphysics is really philosophy. Philosophy comes from the Greek word, I believe metaphysical from from philosophy. So it's philosophy. It's what it is. I got involved in that about 25 years ago, when I met speakers like Anthony Robbins Les Brown, I started listening to Norman, Vincent, Peale, you've heard of him. People like that. People like that. And then I got into I've always been, I've always been a voracious reader, even in Chicago, I've always been a voracious reader, someone that wanted to know. So my educational track really started. See education in the United States and in a lot of places, is them pouring some menu. But true education is what you bring out of you, is what you learn about yourself internally. That's the true education, instead of pumping stuff in what's inside of you. So you take what's taken outside of you and mix it with what's inside of you, and there you go. So I've always been a self starter, but the University of metaphysics is really, really with the jewel to me. I said there's actually a place that reward or they give you a degree and what   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 you love. And where is that university?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 12:25 It's in Arizona. It's the largest metaphysical university in the world, the oldest metaphysical university in the world. In fact, Harvard just start off in metaphysical degrees in my in my field, about four years ago, which is a great thing, great. They finally came around to it and and they recognized it. Wait, wait a minute, they start offering the same degrees, metaphysical degrees. Now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:49 well, but still, so did you go there and actually study there, or did you study remotely, as it were,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 12:56 instead of remotely, like Phoenix and all it's remote. I went there, of course, I graduated and going back and doing, get my third doctorate, to graduate, go across stage two. You have, we have ceremonies and all that. And we have, you know, we're renowned throughout the metaphysical world, throughout the world, as far as philosophy, right?   Michael Hingson ** 13:14 What got you to decide that you wanted to take up a study of metaphysics? You know, you went to community college. You studied some things there, and what did? Well, let me do this first. What did you do after Community College?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 13:26 Community College, I was family man, working building. See, I've always been a self starter. I've never jobs. Never settle with me. See, so I've always been a student, a study here. I've always been someone to read the books. Mm hmm. Listen to the motivational thing. Listen to the philosophy. I've always wanted to know deeper knowledge. And I had my brother that brought me to California. He's always been a student too. He was in the service. He's always been a a person that study and contemplate. He studied politics, war, philosophies, religion, and I follow. I did the same thing. So it's something that's been inside of me, believe it or not, for a very long time. I've known this since I was like eight years old. I've actually known it, and people that knew me knew it. In fact, one lady told me this about four years ago. She knew because I was a baby. I hadn't talked to her in about 40 years. She said, Oh my God, she's really my cousin, but not blood. And she said, Oh my God. And she started telling me about myself. Hence, she told me. She said, when you were a baby in the crib, you would always stand up for what's right. How can I do that in the crib? She said, when somebody's done wrong, you let them know. When you're a baby, when you guys start to stand up, walking up, you'd always stand up for what's right. So I've always had this sense of me, of service to other people and a sense of justice. Okay, certainly, I've had my pitfalls too and all that. That's not the point, but I've always had that with me. I've always had that thing about service and helping others. So getting into self help, which is what metaphysics is, self help and self development gets it was right up my alley. It was right down my lane. It. Was a straight strike. When I did that, it's just a strike. It's a fit like a glove. The glove does fit, by the way.   Michael Hingson ** 15:08 Well, what did you What is but what did you do after college? You had to support yourself and so on, until you decided to take this up. What did you do?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 15:16 No, no, I've been in sales all my life. Okay, I've been, I've been a salesman all my life. You've been sales, okay, yeah, sales, people, sales, good sales people will never starve. No, you always find a way to make it. That's it. I've been selling all my life, yeah? So that that that should answer that, yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 15:32 Now I understand well, and there's nothing wrong with being a good salesperson. I think that so many people don't understand that and misunderstand sales, but there are also a lot of people who do truly understand it, and they know that sales is all about developing trust. Sales is all about guiding somebody who needs something to the best solution for them, not just to make money, but as you said, it's all about self help and and helping others.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 16:01 Well, well, it's actually something real quick about sales. People that have issues with sales don't understand one thing you have issues with people that use sales in unethical way. Yeah, everything is sales, the phone you use and the headset using the house you get you to buy it from someone that sells the water that comes to your home is put there by somebody signing the contract. That's sales. Who going to bring the water to our home? What company? PG, e Edison cup, whatever. All everything is based on sales, sales communications. But because there's some people that are shysters, you blame the whole pot. You blame everybody. That's not the way it sells. Sales is sales is community. Sales is service. That's what sales   Michael Hingson ** 16:41 is. Sales is service. That's what it appear. And simple,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 16:45 yeah, it's not some sheisty guy or woman trying to con you. And no, that's a con person.   Michael Hingson ** 16:51 There are too many of those. There are way too many of those, but never every field. Yeah, in every field, yeah, sure. But what you say is true, sales is service in every sense of the word. And the best sales people are people, people who really understand that and put service above basically anything, because they know that what they do, they can do well, and they can help other people and make money, which is also part of what they do need to do, and that's okay.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 17:18 And without sales, nothing goes around. Sales is really communication. Sales connecting a product or service, fulfilling the need, getting rid of a pain or something you really don't want to bring you to what you want that sales is fulfilling, is uprooting the pain unfulfilled desire and bringing you to the pleasure side of getting what you need, whether it's food, clothing and shelter, all sales doing a bridging the gap, and the salesperson is a communicator that bridge that gap. And the reward is, once you have two satisfied sides, the company and the individual, the product, and the reward is you get paid to do it, right? So now it's like you're getting paid to do what you love, sure.   Michael Hingson ** 18:01 Well, and there you go, well. So you have, however, been a person who's been very focused on the whole concept of self improvement for quite a while. Yes. So what got you started down that road?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 18:19 Here's what got me started down that road I'm gonna go way back to Chicago again. I remember I was 13 years old, and my uncle used to get he was a big beer drinker, and he just talked to me, invite me over and my auntie, and he wanted me to talk. He's wanted me he won't hear me talk. I always had these philosophical sayings, even I was 10 years old, philosophical quotes, these ideas that I didn't read, but just came to me, and one day I told him, life is a dream. We're here to play roles, and we leave the earth. You wake up. In other words, there's no real physical body passes on, but you wake up and you're boom, whatever. Anyway, these philosophies like that. And he was at the lake with me trying to catch fish. He was so busy drinking beer and talking, he wouldn't catch no fish. He told me, talk. Keep talking. I kept talking. And so one day, he brought out my other uncle with us, and we sit down at the lake. And my other uncle was saying, I wish he'd Shut up. He turned to me and say, Talk. Listen to this boy talk. He kept doing that. And one day my aunt said this, he brings Tamir over because he want him to talk. That's why he brings them over. So that kind of encouraged me to make me realize that I had something of value, not just talk, something to say, he would ask me. And then I knew, I knew, from then on that I had a place in life to assist and service others will not just talk, but practical ideas to get results. So I've been known that for a very long time, allowed me to be very successful in sales. I've been top producing billion dollar companies allow me to write books and to be on share the stage with some great people like Mark Victor, Hansen and Jim Rohn. It allowed me to get into a space to where I am now, where this flawless confidence that I can be doing half whatever I want to be but I. I'm able to show other people how to do the same. Those are receptive and those that afford me to show that I'm not for everybody. I understand that,   Michael Hingson ** 20:07 right? You can only do what you can do, right? So you started down this, this path of dealing with self improvement, and how did that lead you into metaphysics?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 20:24 Well, remember now metaphysics and self is the same thing. It's just a different word. It's the same thing. Self improvement come from metaphysics.   Michael Hingson ** 20:31 But what made you decided that you wanted to get, like, an advanced degree in it, and actually get degreed in it   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 20:37 after studying over 1000 books in like a two year period. Literally, literally reading those books. Okay? After going through that kind of I went through a breakthrough in 2005 and I went to a breakthrough session called Breakthrough to success. And the gentleman told me something that's very interesting. I said, in this circle about 50 people around me, like I'm a fish in a fish bowl, he told me, I had high self confidence for low self esteem. In other words, I don't know what self esteem was. I had developed a Harvard vocabulary. I had spoken on stage and coached clients. I was top producing network marketing company. I don't know what self esteem I never thought about what self esteem was. He told me that if, for some reason, it really hit me, it really hit to the core of who I am. What do you mean low self esteem? You have had self confidence. And here's what I went home and I cried that night. I realized that what I realized what that meant, because I accept, I have to accept that, but I did. Here's what that meant. Self esteem is self confidence how you feel you can do outside of you. Self esteem is how you feel about yourself, okay, and there's no one like you. And I realized that self esteem by loving yourself and appreciating yourself, not trying to be anybody else, not trying to wish you with somebody else, not want anybody else, money, fame or fortune, but being you and loving you. When I got that, when I got that, my whole world shifted. Mm, hmm. It shifted from this having this confidence, knowing what I can do. I can communicate and speak and sell, but how do I I wasn't give enough attention to myself and appreciating who I was, my own value and that that go,   Michael Hingson ** 22:08 and that certainly is something that people around you would sense, who who understand how to do that, right?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 22:16 Well, this guy certainly did, and, yeah, I guess he's the only one that says that, not just me, but other people. I said, Wait a minute. I said, is I never, had never thought about that. Then I wrote a book called from that. I mean, I must have cried for about 30 days straight, every day, tears of joy in my heart. I didn't care about fame or fortune or impressing nobody. I wasn't trying to be this big speaker, this big guy. I'm just being me. I'm I love me. I didn't care about none of that, but myself and what I call God. And from that point on, I begin to really get things come to me that I never have. My mind really opened up to why I didn't care about trying to please anybody I was enjoying every moment. And I wrote a book called reclining master, awaken one minute to healthy esteem. That's when I wrote that book. It talked about, it's like an autobiography. It talked about my journey to understanding that and what happened to me, what what caused me to have low self esteem, what caused not to even understand what self esteem was, and I was a child in that book. Remember the movie The Wolf Man, with Lon Chaney, Cheney, That movie scared be Jesus out of me. My siblings would take me and tell me I was The Wolf Man, Wally Wolf. They call me The Wolf Man, right? And That movie scared me, man, and it really had a psychological effect on my on me growing up, right? I was really, really afraid, and didn't know that that child in me was still afraid. It was afraid all that time. And that's the part that was really hurt by the low self esteem when I discovered that game was on. It was over as far as that. No, I love me. I'm good enough. I am that you're a bet, we're both that that's all there is that was it. Game was on after that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:53 So does the boyfriend scare you today? No, I   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 23:56 laugh at that. Okay, it's funny. That's funny as heck. I laugh at it. It's funny as heck to me and like, Wow. I look at again, like, wow, really, seriously, I can see how that could affect somebody. You tell a little kid something like that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:09 Lon Chaney in that movie, comes across as not having great self esteem. But that's another story.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:16 Look well and i It's not to say I mimic that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:19 I manage that? Yeah,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:23 people too. I get to fight side you bite, people too.   Michael Hingson ** 24:27 So when did you essentially start doing your own business and start working toward coaching and teaching and finding ways to work with clients?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 24:39 2000 No, 1994 I began to really study the self improvement movement. And I would see guys like Les Brown, that's, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I like that. I was already that. I was already teaching. I was already doing that. I didn't know that was a field. I've told that. Years ago, a guy told me that, and I. The other field, like that. And I started to study those guys and see what they do. And I'm like, really interesting. They're doing their thing, they're talking they're assisting people. Okay, I can do that too. Then I get involved in network marketing. Network marketing is one of those fields where people are. They're some most open to self development I've ever seen out of all the fields, network marketing and direct sales, they are the most open people to self development. They will spend the money on themselves. People spend money on everything, on fancy cars, bigger housing, they need clothing, everything. But they lot of more spend money on good books and to self improve, right? So when I, when I, when I saw that, I said, Wait a minute. Hmm, here we go. Here we go. This is what I want to do. This what we'll do. So I took that with my sales ability, and I started to have that finance me as I go see sales and self improvement. The same thing, the best sales people have charmed character charisma and class. They have charm. Character charisma and class. They ask questions. They seek to see understand other people. They seek to appreciate other people. Those who appreciate it show appreciation. They seek to listen and to learn and to find out what the customer or client want. And they try to match that with that, out of all sincerity, and that's why I love sales. Sales and self improvement go together. Yeah, they go right together.   Michael Hingson ** 26:25 And the best sales people are the ones who will even say, if their product isn't the right product, it won't work,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 26:32 it won't work. And that's the best coaches, the best anything. If I was coaching the client today, and she's a prospect and we're talking, and I told her that I don't want your money. No, no. This. This is a preliminary call. Okay, here's why. I don't know if I can assist you or not. I don't know what I have will assist your situation. I don't even know you yet. How can I ask you for money? She was so appreciative of that, because most people in our industry, they talk to you one time and offer you something. Wait a minute. You don't know what Michael needs. You haven't even diagnosed him. You heard what he's gonna say. You had a canned thing. You're gonna it was canned what you're gonna say to him. You do what you're gonna say. Well, me, I'm different, Michael, I don't know what I'm gonna say to you. That 30 minute call is really discovery call, sure. And if you qualify, if I qualify, let's set up another call in that call. Then at the end of that call, we may come to something, then I can make your offer. So I feel I can help you at if there's a match, boom. That's what a doctor does. No. Doctor, no. Doctor you go to is going to tell you your jaw hurt. You said, No. Doctor, my thigh hurts. Is a pain? No, your jaw hurts that doctor's a quack. That's a lot of coaches do. A lot of them are quacks. They just read something and they want to apply to micro plat. To Michael, apply to me. That may not even fit me. I may not be the one to help Michael, sure, and I have enough integrity and faith and confidence to command to know that in other way, I don't have commission breath. I'm going to get mine regardless. And nobody can stop   Michael Hingson ** 27:54 it, sure. Well, and again, it's how you operate, and it's the ethics you operate with which is very important. Ethics.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 28:05 In fact, I it's, this is a shameless plug, but I'm gonna do it anyway. My third doctor I just finished, called conscious business ethics. Conscious business ethics. You see how we went from metaphysics to to the secular world, and Harvard went from the secular world to metaphysics, we both came together now. So we're doing one. I'm doing one now on conscious business ethics, which is a really big issue in business today. Oh yeah, business are more concerned about their bottom line than the people that work for them, until they treat their employees like customers. They always have those problems they don't need,   Michael Hingson ** 28:39 and it's unfortunate, but I think there have always certainly been people who weren't overly ethical, but I think it used to be that a larger number of businesses were more loyal to employees than we see today. Now the response always is, this is what the stockholders want. That's what we have to listen to, and that's all we listen to. And that's just not true.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 29:05 Not only is it not true, is it not true? What a lot of companies are turned around, well, they begin to understand the value of self improvement, the value of treat the value of leadership versus management, the value of being a boss versus being a leader. There's a difference. Managers push leaders, pull managers tables. Do leaders encourage you. They change languages on how they talk to you, how to present to you. They that you understand. You have a family. This person has a family. Have needs and concerns outside this business, the way a lot of businesses do it now and have done in the past. This the business. This is our life. This what we want, regardless what you want if you fit in or you don't, well, they ran up on a I'm a rhino that never worked with me, brother. I am psychologically unemployable. I will work a job. I have to, even today, if I say it's quote, unquote, have to. I would do I gotta do to get what I gotta get. But I'm a rhino, I'm gonna I'm psychologically and terminally unemployable. I was taught by Yogananda, which is, you. One of my favorite teachers wrote Autobiography of a yoga you may have heard of yoga under and I've been his student for 15 years, and he said something very important that already knew, but he affirmed it, if you're, if you're, if you can't be subordinate to other people. Some, some of us are like that. That's not your style. Then do what you got to do until you get where you get where you got to go, be respectable who you with, take it and then move, but be working your way out of it. Yeah, but I, I've been terminally unemployable all my life. Brother, a renegade.   Michael Hingson ** 30:32 Well, but that doesn't mean that you're not useful part of the system, or trustworthy or reliable. It just means that you operate in a slightly different way than most people are used to doing.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 30:46 Well, yeah, it means this You're right. It means this You're right. It means that you look into Apple to give you something. I'm going to create my own apple. That's what it means. I'm that kind of person. We need those kind of people. If we didn't, you wouldn't have this laptop. You wouldn't have the technology you have right now. Those people were innovators, entrepreneurs like me, you I'm an entrepreneur. I'm the entrepreneur solopreneur. They want to be apreneurs, and there's not a preneurs Don't even try go to work for somebody else. Don't even try to be apreneur. Some people just don't have it. So no, it doesn't mean anything that. It means that being psychologically employable. Mean that, okay? He is IBM, he is Apple, okay? He is Tesla, he is Cadillac, he is American airline. I'm like that. Whether I achieve that level, it's irrelevant. I'm one of those people that's all. That's it.   Michael Hingson ** 31:36 So for you, who are the typical people who would be your client, who are your typical clients or your target audience today, entrepreneurs.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 31:49 I mean entrepreneurs in a real sense, those who understand sales and psychology, entertainers, athletes. Why say those people, those in network marketing and sales? Because those people traditionally understand mindset. They're coming to the mindset they they promote the books in their seminars and the reading and bringing the speakers. They're open to they're open to it, to what I have. They're ready for it. They're ready for it. That's my audience. That's my target. And I hold it on target, because people say, Well, my audience is everybody. Well, not true, not true. If you want to catch bass, you go to a bass lake. I have specific audience that I'm targeting, and I'm focused on the article that audience is open and receptive and to level I'm at. I don't teach kindergar. That's not my specialty. Okay, they gotta start too, okay. I teach those people that are in the field that want to get it, they have a glimpse of it, they want to get it now. They're ready. So with me, it's like a university level coaching. It doesn't mean you gotta, you have to, you have to have 10 years in the field. It means that you're open and receptive, to listen, to accept and to work. When I give somebody assignment, if you don't work it, don't talk to me about it, unless you have a question about it. If you didn't work it, I don't talk to you about it. I want you to. I'd rather you fail first, then come back to me, because the other side of failure is success. We got to tweak it or do something. But if you don't do the assignment I give you, let's talk about the next thing, not that we'll talk about that. When you do if you don't do it, I   Michael Hingson ** 33:17 won't talk about it, yeah, unless there's some real, substantial reason why you didn't or couldn't do it, but that's different, but that's a different story.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 33:26 Amen. I agree with you that that's that's true, brother,   Michael Hingson ** 33:30 that's always a different story, right, right? So you, at the same time, you have to earn money and survive. What are your thoughts about the whole concept of money?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 33:44 Money is a terrible master, but a wonderful servant. Yeah, money is money is necessary. Money has this place. Money is good, money is not bad, money is not evil, it's not wicked, and nothing like that. Money is neutral. Money serves you according to your level of service and how you expected to serve you, how you think about it. Money is a terrible masculine it's a wonderful servant. Money is that thing where can serve you, but it can be the one of the worst tyrants, second to sex, lust, that is the worst. But let me get back to Money. Money is a tool. Money is energy. That's why they call it currency. And it must flow. If it's not flowing, it ain't growing. If it ain't growing, you ain't knowing you feel me and that mean, that mean you ain't sowing the seed that rhymed. I just made that up, by the way. Good job. I just made that up, dude, off the top of my head, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 34:37 good job.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 34:38 This came to me. It happened to rhyme, we learning rhymes. Hickory Dickory Dock, the mouse went up the clock and all that kind of stuff. So that's what I think that's that's money. The concept of money is very fascinating, because money is the most easy thing I've ever manifested. See, money is actually easy to manifest, but people make it hard. Here's why, because they're running. After it. While you're running after it, it's right there in front of you, but you're chasing after it, and you want to knock on other people, to get with a light sheet and still to get it. Some people, some willing to con someone, to do unethical things, to get you to do it like the old commercial. What's this taste good? Like a cigarette should? Well, there's nothing good tasting about tobacco. I always   Michael Hingson ** 35:21 wondered that myself, having never smoked, but yeah, I hear you,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 35:24 yeah, yeah, but telling you that, telling you that, getting your mind that frame gets you to spend your money. And we're so money conscious. You want to get money. I want to spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend. How about respecting the money? How can I make this money circulate? How can I one give something to somebody else in a service or calls? Okay, it's very good to do that, whether you call it tithing or just giving. That doesn't matter with the percentage. It doesn't matter. Give from the heart someone else. And then find a way to circulate that money. That money is actually energy. It will, it comes back to you. It actually comes back to it circulates. You create. You create a universal energy, a Goodwill has nothing to do with religion, politics or nothing, but I just said nothing. I just said has something to do with life and the laws of the universe, albeit which works the same for everybody, for everybody. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 36:17 Well, you clearly want to help people, and you want people to obtain results. What do you do? Or how do you how are you able to consistently help entrepreneurs and your clients and so on to achieve dynamic results and positive results? Another way of saying is, what do you do anyway? Go ahead,   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 36:38 right? What do you Well, I'm a content creator. I create content. Okay? I create content. I have a course that's coming out really soon called create dynamic results, and it's a seven transformational steps to show people how to make these subtle mind shifts that become permanent. Okay? And I'm fortunate enough to be the guide through this program. In that program, what they learn to do is how to take those habits, those nagging, nagging habits. See, habits are what make us what we are. Habits. Period, you brush your teeth in the morning. It's a hat bleeding. You gotta think about you're gonna brush your teeth. You're not gonna think about it. You gotta get up and go do it. Period, in the story, you're not gonna more about it. Not gonna say maybe I don't feel like today, you gotta do it Okay. More like them do it okay. And because the habit, because that little bit happens, ingraining your brain, it's like a fluid. It's been ingrained, and it's like a track. Now, as soon as you wake up, soon as you wake up, waking up and open your eyes and get out of bed, is actually a trigger to go brush your teeth. Now it's a trigger, so you got to do it. Well, bad habits are the same way you have habits you don't want. They're the same way those habits you hear certain words or certain things that trigger anger certainly trigger hunger, certain thing will trigger lust, greed or violence or just whatever. Okay, so in order to have the habits that, that, that that that that support you, that benefits you, you have to transmute those by setting yourself on like a seven days. I'm just using seven days right now. Say, say, You tell yourself today I'm not going to get angry, period. Imma, remain calm. Now, when you say that, I guarantee you, I will guarantee you, I'll bet you $25 to a bucket of beans that you're going to get plenty opportunities to get angry that day. People going to say things. They're going to do things you're angry. Now here's the thing. The test is to remember what you said, what you said when it comes, ignore it, and then replace that with a different you keep doing that, you're going to change that habit. Eventually, it may take a year you're going to change that habit. So you've got a habit of procrastinating, not following up on your goals, your plans, not prospecting. You can change that habit by going through certain steps, by changing those grooves in the brain, okay to have that record play. One good example is that is the mother Turkey. The mother Turkey is one of the best mothers in creation. The mother Turkey love that baby, cleans that nurtures that baby. Just really, really, really, really, really, okay. And when that baby chirps, that baby chirps, that baby chirp that the turkey hearts melt. That mother Turkey heart will melt when that baby chirp, period. So now you have let me change some you have this pole cat. Pole cat is the universal enemy of a turkey. When Turkey see a pole cat, that Turkey go crazy and get crazy and want to kill. It this hard to death. Well, there's a spirit one day where they put a pole cat near the turkey, and the turkey went crazy, gonna kill it to protect his young. Well, they had a little walkie, a little radio inside of the a little device inside, the inside of stuffed turkey. That shirt like little baby birds, red Turkey chirp that Turkey. When that pole cat shirt, that Turkey was disarmed, that Turkey nurtured the phony pole cat. Cause of that chirp, nurtured it. Heard that shirt. That's what habits are. You're a certain sound, and you act like a robot. So actually, we're puppets on a string. This is getting a little deeper that. That's, in essence, what it is. So in assisting people how to change those habits and. Then how to concentrate Focus. Focus is so big in self improvement. All people great success have great focus skills, but very few people teach you how to focus. Have anyone ever taught you how to focus? Very few people have techniques like that how to focus. Then there's self analysis. When you self analysis, you analyze yourself. Then there's willpower, which is creative power. Then there's transportation and sexual energy, and then the words you speak to yourself, those six or seven things I just named, are the key and foundational to all of our success.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 The only thing I would add to that are the words that your inner voice is saying to you, and you need to learn to listen to them.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 40:36 That's and that's what I said about that self analysis. Yeah, right, right. And that's where you come in, concentrate and meditation, yeah. And so one thing about meditation really quickly, real quick meditation people, especially a lot of religious people, think, well, I'm this or that. I'm a Christian, Muslim or Judas or Jew or Buddhist. I don't do that meditation stuff. Stop, stop, stop. Here's where knowledge becomes power when you understand and use it. When you want to get stronger arms, you can do push ups when you want to shoot. Be a better shooter in basketball, you practice the shots anything you want. You practice Okay, in order to strengthen your mind, where you have the one point of focus on where you're calm you meditation is an exercise of the mind. That's it. No matter what religion you are, be quiet and learn how to calm down, to quiet the thoughts, all distracting thoughts. Once you quiet the thoughts, and then that lake becomes clear without any ripples, and you see the pure reflects of the moon, that's gonna become calm. That's when you get some stuff done. Now you can focus on that thing with laser focus and get it done. Nothing great was ever done without laser focus, ever? There are no accidents,   Michael Hingson ** 41:46 right? Well, and also just the whole idea of clearing your mind, letting yourself calm down. It's perfectly okay to ask yourself, How do I accomplish this? The problem with most people is they won't listen for the answer, no. And whether you want to say it's God telling you your inner voice or whatever, it's really all the same thing. But the problem is, people won't listen. And then when they get the answer, they go, it can't be that simple. People don't listen to that inner voice.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 42:20 It's very powerful. I meant to the inner voice thing. I love meditation. I love doing it as once a little girl in the church, she's a Catholic, and she was she whenever, I believe the church, she'd sit there about 10 or 15 minutes every week. And so the cardinal, whoever given the service, came here and said, How you doing, little girl, when she stopped, Hi, how are you? I noticed after every service, everybody leave the chapel. Your parents leave outside too. But every Sunday, little girl, you sit here, I think she's about 12 years old, you sit here, and you keep praying. And he asked her, why may I ask? Why? Why? Why you do it like that? She said, Because. Now, watch this out of the mouth of babes, because everybody's praying to God. I want to hear what God has to say to has to say to me. Mm hmm. I want to listen. Bam. Mic drop. That's it. Mm hmm. Mic drop. That's how powerful being quiet in meditation is meditation exercising the mind. So if you say, Well, I'm a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, I'm a Baha that doesn't matter. Meditation had nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with that. Has them do it like you said, Brother internally, who you are, your inner self. This is that still small voice. And by the way, all those religions say that, but few people understand that. They all say the same. They all said the same thing. I know because I study them. I studied the world religions. I studied Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Kabbalah. I studied new thought. I studied that stuff. I love it, but I understood something about it that we're all actually one. We're what we're actually one,   Michael Hingson ** 43:56 viewed as the many. Do you generally find that you can get through to people who want to be your clients. Or how does that work?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 44:06 Can you repeat that, please?   Michael Hingson ** 44:07 Okay, so somebody comes to you and says, I really want to hear what you have to say. I want to learn from you. And you've talked about the fact you don't teach kindergarteners. You you teach people who are further along the process. Do you? Do you ever miss assess or find that you're not teaching the right person or they just don't want to listen to you once you get started and working with them?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 44:29 I've never had that happen. I thank God never. I'll tell you why. When people come to me, okay, people want to make money, they want to increase their sale, they want to increase their contact, they want to increase their network. They will increase their productivity by me showing them how to increase their transformative value, to enhance their performative value, to get to the results they want. Here are the results we talk about. We talk about what they want. Now see when I'm talking to you right. Now, give me the philosophy, but the coaching is very different. The floats, the culture is actually the philosophy in action with what they're doing. You. I use the language they're doing, interacting what they're doing, how their prospect, who they're talking to, the attitude they have, the ideas how to shift certain things. What goals you hitting right now? Okay, what do you do? What what's what's the top person in the company doing? What are you doing? How do you rate yourself to that? What are you doing right now? Let me show you how to increase that by 25% 50% in the next month. Let me show you how to increase that. So I'll take what they're doing and I'll remember now all what I'm saying is good, but if you can't take it to fit the people and make it practical, it's just talk. All books, all books, religious or whatever, are just dead writings. Until you make them come alive, we have to make them come alive. So I take what I'm take talking now, and I apply it to the network marketing, the sales, the people, into coaching, the mind technology, you have to apply it. So I never had that problem. I haven't I thank the Creator for that. Never had that issue. Never, never had that because anyone even hit   Michael Hingson ** 45:59 that, yeah, because you've had people that that when you accept them as a client, you've you've communicated with them, you've assessed what their needs are. They tell you what their needs are, and you come to agreement as to they're going to listen to you to deal with fulfilling those needs, right?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 46:17 You're going to follow it like in my in my course, that I'm at the part of the course creator. I'm court doing the videos right now, the intro and outro and all that. This one thing my class got to understand. When you get this course, if you don't do the work, don't talk to me about it. Now, if something come up where you can't get it done, you need a way to get it done. Let's talk. But you just didn't do it. You have not earned the right to come to me and tell me that, which is what I have to work before, right? Yeah, talk about before. So, so I'm really into getting you to move and to feel that result. See, everything is result of something, and you need to prove that to yourself. And no one can do that, but you, no one's gonna do but you, no one can do but you, no one should do but you, damn it. You should do it, but you can be guided,   Michael Hingson ** 47:07 that's right, to how to do it. But then you have to make, but you have to make the choice to do it.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 47:14 That's right, see, and I don't care if it's Warren Buffett, I'll give you example about here's what coaching is all about, and mentoring is all about it's all about human beings having two things that they want to do. They want to avoid pain and suffering and gain pleasure, reach the desire. There's only two motivators we have. There are no other motivators, no other motivators in the universe. We only have two motivators, to avoid suffering and pain and to seek happiness and feel the desire. Okay? The idea is to solve the pain puzzle so that the person, place or thing, can enjoy the pleasure principle. If I can solve I don't give a warren buffett right now. If Warren Buffett, with all his billions, would approach me right now, if he had a problem that no one could solve all his life and it gnaws at him, he won't answer to it. He's dreamed about all these years. And if he met me right now and he felt that that's the one he can solve that problem. He would hire me right now. He would hire me right now. That's right, yep. Well, it doesn't matter how much money you have. When I learned that, when that dawn upon me, game on for anybody. There are people out there that are my clients, and I know it. I don't care how what your status is. I'll give you the king of England or the pet the United States. I don't care if you the Grand Poobah. I don't care if you have a trillion dollars in the bank. If you got an issue, and I'm the one you see can solve it, you're going to pay me, and I'm going to work with you, period. That's the commitment, though, there are no boundaries, right?   Michael Hingson ** 48:39 That's That's the commitment. You are committing to do it. You're committing to help. You're committing to bring your skills to it. Bring my   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 48:47 skill set to it. I don't have to have as much money as you to do it. I ain't got to have a bigger home than you to do that. I ain't got to be Michael Jordan to help. Michael Jordan if he had the problem of pain. So I don't have to be that. Once people that coach and teach get past that. A lot of my scared, why that person can't? Oh, hold on, I might have a answer to a thing that Anthony Robbins need help with. We all need some growth and development. We all do until we reach that level of a certain level where we're there and we're just helping other people. But most of us, most of us, 99% of us or more, have pain problems, get who you are and give you a story about Joseph in the Bible. You've heard the story about Joseph in the Bible, how Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. Okay? He sold slavery by his brothers into prison, something he didn't do. And while he was in prison, he began to be known as his philosophy and his work and his spirituality. And people would talk to him. So one guy got out, Joseph said, Please tell the king, yada ya, or whatever. The guy got out and forgot about Joseph. Then tell Well, years more, more years passed by. Another guy got out. He went and told the king, or whatever, about Joseph. I know a guy can solve your dreams. I'm paraphrasing the story. And the king asked Joseph to come out. He's, I heard you can solve my problems. And. Joseph told him how to solve his problem. Well, Joseph became a billionaire overnight. Yeah, he solved the king's problem. That's not the exact story, but you see, no. So it doesn't matter who you are or your status in life, once you get past that thinking, well, I ain't, I can't do this. I only live in No, no, no, no, no, no. They do it work. It's like, it's like, it's like, needing, getting to car accident, okay? And your stomach is you got a gas in your stomach, okay? And say you're multi billionaire, okay? Or say you the biggest athlete in the planet or the richest king in the world, you're not going to say how much money that doctor make, or nothing like that. You're going to say, Please heal me. You don't care about that. That doctor had the skill to heal you to take care, and that's you want to take care. That's all you want. Gotta say, I don't want that doctor flying so and so from so and so. You're not gonna do that. And a lot of people understand that when you have something to give, you give it. You hone your skills, you bunker down, you walk with thoughtless confidence, command, you have the self esteem, doing the ambient maybe move forward. That's why I work with entrepreneurs and I will work with people that are not on that low. Get me wrong. Now, I'm not saying I will work with people that are newbies. All depends on the newbie. If they want sales training, I'll give it to them. Yes, I'll give it to them. They want sales training. They want training on how to close, how to be better communicated. Sales are the communication daughter, a daughter of charm character, Chris man, class, and the more charm character, charisma and class you add in appropriate form, you're able to connect, communicate and close. That's seven C's, yep, sell the seven C's.   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 I counted four. Where are the other three? Charm, charm characterism   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 51:40 in class. That's four, communicate, connect and close.   Michael Hingson ** 51:44 Okay, just checking on you, because once   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 51:47 you have those four, you open to bed. Line of communication. Add some more things in there. As far as you know, psychology and persuasion tools. Now you're connecting. Once you connect, then you can close.   Michael Hingson ** 51:59 There you go. Just wanted to make sure we got to all seven.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 52:02 We got all Thank you. Thank you for holding me to that.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 No, I hear exactly what you're saying, and it is, it is so important to do that. So tell me what you know, with all the things that you're doing, you're clearly a person who cares, what's your take on giving back and charity and so on?   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 52:26 Everything, everything, everything. And I'll tell you why I say everything, everything is a result of something the universe and life is always giving me something. Mm, hmm. See, life is what I call the creator's gift to us. What we give back is our gift to the creator for being on this planet. We are creators. Giving is a natural part of your being, who you are, your power. When you're your power, you can give from the heart, okay? And when you give, believe me, it's going to come back to you anyway. Now you don't give it for it to come back. You give it because you want to service and love because you you realize that we're one giving, giving from the heart empowers you. You want to feel empowered give you want to feel empowered every time somebody get paid, give something. I don't care if it's 10% of 5% give from your heart and keep it to yourself. Yeah, much as you can. Keep it to yourself, because you spoil your own goods. Keep it to yourself and let it flow the way it's going to flow, and then you will grow, and then you'll know, yep, how it goes. That Ryan too. I just made that up. That pretty   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 well rhymes, yeah, but, but it's true. It's true. Too many people have to show off. Oh, I gave a million dollars to this charity. The problem is, you're not you shouldn't be doing it for notoriety. You should be doing it because it's the right thing to do. It's what you want to do.   Dr Tamir Qadree ** 53:55 If somebody found out that's different, like Warren Buffett is one of my favorite. Warren Buffet is one of my favorites. Warren Buffett is one of the most humble giving people. His money 70 billion he gave out. It got out there because there's so much money. I bet he didn't, he didn't promote that. Okay, now I look, I look at one athlete. I won't mention a name here, always, they always say about how much he gives and how much he gives. And build this and build that. Always talk about that, about that guy, the other guy they compare him to, never opens his mouth about his giving. He gives all the time. Never opens his mouth. One guy always told me what he gives, and I said to myself, dude, that that that's taboo. This the opposite of giving. I'm not saying your heart ain't in it, but you're allowing this narrative to be there without comment on the narrative that's it's that is personal, that, in fact, giving to me is sacred. It is sacred. You're giving to help humanity, other people, my gift, my charity, which I have to do today, by the wa

We have another episode for you where I'm joined by Anna Mackay, an original co-host of the podcast with Anna Lutz and me. Anna lives on the other side of the world these days, but she and I were able to catch up and record a few episodes this summer while she was visiting the US. I'm sure you'll enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed talking with Anna Mackay!Podcast Episode 108: Nourishing Teen Athletes with Anna Mackay In this conversation, Elizabeth and Anna Mackay discuss the unique nutritional needs of teen athletes, emphasizing the importance of fueling for growth and performance. They explore tips for building healthy relationships with food, the role of parents in supporting their teens, and practical strategies for fueling teen athletes in a number of different scenarios. The discussion also highlights the signs of under-fueling and provides resources for parents and teens to navigate nutrition effectively.Key takeaways* The unique nutritional needs of teen athletes.* The importance of food for growth and performance.* The roles parents play in fueling their teen athlete.* The importance of meal planning and preparation.* Suggestions for navigating teen athletes who don't want to eat breakfast and those who are picky eaters. Links to resources* Podcast Ep. 69: Getting Diet Culture Out of Sports Culture with Rachel Manor* Podcast Ep. 25: Sports Nutrition for Kids and Teens with Leslie Schilling* Leslie Schilling's Dietitian Development Hub * Podcast Ep. 28: Nourishing a Dancers Mind & Body with Monika Saigal* Podcast Ep. 59: Eating Disorders and Athletes with Shane Jeffery* Hydration Essentials: All Fluids Fit* Opal Podcast: The Appetite* Pinney Davenport Nutrition, PLLC* Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition TherapyDid you miss my previous conversation with Anna Mackay? We chatted about meal planning for college and boarding students. * Episode 104: MealPlanning for College Students TranscriptI am so excited to say to our listeners that I am here with Anna Mackay, who, as those of you who've been with us for a long time know, Anna is really the impetus for starting the podcast during COVID. So Anna, I'm so excited you're here. Welcome, welcome.Anna Mackay (00:20)I am equally excited to be here and in the same time zone. Elizabeth (00:26)Yes, yeah.That's why we haven't been recording with Anna, because Anna's been in a very different time zone and busy ⁓ becoming a registered dietitian, which she is now officially a registered dietitian. yes, yay. And Anna is also a certified personal trainer. And so we thought she would be a great person to chat with.Elizabeth (00:51)Fueling teen athletes. So we'll jump in and let's just talk for a minute to let our listeners know kind of what you would say are the nutritional, you know, what makes the nutritional needs of teens, ⁓ teen athletes rather unique.Anna Mackay (01:06)Thanks.So I really like this question because I don't think it's something we think about. You sort of just, think often it's approached as like a one size fits all. But the main reason that teen nutritional needs are unique is because teens are still growing and developing, right? Their bones, muscles, their brains, their hormones are still maturing. And then you add training into the mix.And it doesn't matter what type of training, we could be talking about football, dancing, gymnastics, any type of training that is physically taxing to the body. And their nutritional needs are going to go way up. Food isn't just fuel for sport either. It's the raw material needed for building a strong, healthy body for life. And so that is what I think makes the nutritional needs for teens specifically unique. I'll also add that where adult athletes would be primarily focused on performance maintenance, teens are still in a phase of physical development and need food to support both their growth and performance. So they are going to need more energy in the form of calories, more protein, potentially more fluids, and more micronutrients like calcium and iron, for example, because of that growth and training.Elizabeth (02:31)So they have to pay, they and their parents really have to pay closer attention to their needs without creating an issue, right? Without it becoming a struggle. Well, so how can parents support teen athletes in building flexible, trusting relationships with food and really support them in.Also, this is really more than one question, support them in meeting their needs.Anna Mackay (02:59)So to answer, think the building of flexible and trusting relationship with food first. I would be interested actually Elizabeth in hearing what you think about this. For me, the first thing that comes to mind is never ever ever tying food to appearance. And for teen athletes, this is going to be very particularly important for the athletes who are in your very, what I would call body conscious sports, gymnastics, swimming, diving, also the sports where they are still, I think, at the elite level, weights are still being taken, wrestling and rowing, it is still happening. Maybe forgetting a sport where that happens, maybe boxing. Because as soon as a kid starts tying their food to how they look, it's impossible to have a flexible relationship with food because they're going to always have that little voice in their head saying, are you sure you want to eat that? It'll make them second guess their intuition. And so instead we can focus on how food helps them to perform by saying things like, this is going to help you recover faster, or this will give you more energy at practice.Keep conversations about weight or size out of it. And I'll just add to that, that it's really important for parents to also model this - modeling body respect yourself.Elizabeth (04:21)Yes, that's a huge one. I'm sitting here nodding and our listeners can't see me nodding. But yes, that's such a valuable point. Even if parents aren't saying anything, just watching, just the teens seeing how the parents are eating and seeing their relationship with food and physical activity. And the earlier that starts, the more solid a foundation the teens will have.Anna Mackay (04:45)Yeah, and one more thing I would add to that is we really, really need to get away from this idea that carbs are bad - absolutely essential. They are an essential component of good nutrition, both generally for every day for all of us, but particularly for athletic performance. Elizabeth (04:53)I'm so YeaAnna Mackay (05:07)You know, and I live on the other side of the world now, and I hear this all the time, and I'm sure in the States this is still a big thing where everyone's kind of... carbs are bad, reduce your carbs and protein's king. We need both. We do. So, and you know, this belief that sort of looking a certain way is a part of athletic success is also incredibly harmful. I think the bottom line is that under fueling hurts performance, it slows recovery and it increases the risk of injury and burnout. And carbs are a really important part of that fueling.Elizabeth (05:39)Do you want to talk kind of high level on why carbs are so important?Anna Mackay (05:44)Well, it might be over-complicating things to go into the sort of biochemistry of it, but I think we can explain that, or it might be helpful to explain that carbs, when we ingest them, are converted into glucose. And glucose is how our bodies get energy. It is our brain's preferred source of energy. It is also your muscles' preferred source of energy. So that's where all your energy comes from. And the protein is the building block that helps provide the muscles with it's muscle building block, I think. Is that how you would explain it?Elizabeth (06:19)Yeah, 100%, 100%. And I think one thing that just popped into my mind when you were talking about this is, you know, parents are, you know, even if parents are modeling at home and really have laid a foundation for a positive relationship with food, it can still be so difficult because the parents are up against, and the teens, and the coaches are up against all the messaging that's out there in the media. And so that adds another layer to really making sure that teen athletes are fueled adequately.How can parents support teens to fuel eating for performance and recovery after practices and games? You really, do you feel like you said that? Anna Mackay (07:08)I mean, we could talk about packing snacks and sort of planning, being prepared. I think where people can get caught out in the planning for, or not planning, being able to support themselves adequately for performance and recovery when it comes to their practice schedules is in being under prepared or not being prepared at all. So if parents can help out with planning ahead so that your busy team, because these team athletes are so busy, they are, you know, you've got rowers getting up at 4:00 in the morning to hit the river at whatever time.If they already have packed in their sports bag, you know, their water, their whatever snack bars they like, or maybe it's a Tupperware with apples with another Tupperware that's got their peanut butter in it, whatever it is, if it's already in the bag, then it's going to go to practice with them. And the same way, you know, whether that's morning or afternoon, right? So you don't get caught with nothing to eat.And then making sure that you've got things available like the jar of peanut butter, the oats, the hard boiled eggs, the bars, whatever it is. And you're not going for perfection, right? You're going for consistency, variety, and just making sure that you're not skipping snacks or meals.Elizabeth (08:38)And the part about not going for perfection is so important. So let's just talk for a few minutes about how parents can help their teens recognize that there isn't a perfect way to eat for additional performance. How can parents ensure that eating remains a positive experience rather than this anxiety ridden exercise.Anna Mackay (09:03)Yes, there is no such thing as eating perfectly. It literally, it just doesn't exist. And most kinds of tracking and counting can quickly become obsessive, especially during the teenage years, which are, they're hard enough without angst over eating and how many steps and how many calories are in. So instead, we want to encourage listening to hunger cues, eating regularly.And including a variety of food. So consistency, adequacy, and listening to hunger cues. So, yeah, no, I was just gonna say, and unless prescribed by a dietitian for medical reasons, tracking isn't necessary. Elizabeth (09:45)100%.Anna Mackay (09:46)I don't care how elite the athlete is, really I don't. You know, and look, I will say here, I do know some dietitians who are on the team at, I'm talking really elite levels, where they may be working with an athlete on some sort of something that could be considered tracking, but the good dietitians will not be having the athlete do it alone. It will be medically supervised. And that's a really important thing to know because that's a very distinct thing from, you know, a high school basketballer doing it all by themselves and getting, you know, potentially falling down that rabbit hole of obsessive tracking.Elizabeth (10:25)Right. It's very easy to get bogged down in that and use that external cue as a way to eat as opposed to paying attention to their hunger and fullness and energy levels. So I have a couple kind of follow-up questions. What if someone really doesn't notice their hunger and fullness cues?Or especially their hunger cues. What about the kid who just really doesn't notice them or experiences them in some way that they aren't able to identify? What would you recommend for them?Anna Mackay (10:59)That's a great question. again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. My thoughts on that, that is going to be a child and a teenager who is going to need a little bit more structure. I think they just will need a bit more filling in the gaps by whether it's a parent or their dietitian. So a few more reminders, bit of encouragement. You're going off to practice. I know you're not very hungry.We talked about having these things that we know that sit well in your stomach. Can you make sure you've had one? Mm-hmm. know, and...It can be, you know, and also I think these don't have to be huge snacks. can be a relatively small smoothie, a piece of fruit, gentle reminders without pressure on how proper nutrition can enhance their performance, boost their energy levels, framing it as a way to help them succeed. So you're not sort of coming down on them.Saying, you you need this, this and this, or it's going to be a disaster. It's more just framing it as a way. This will help you succeed. And then for really selective eaters,Maybe you can answer that Elizabeth. I find that really, really tricky. My only piece of advice would be, think you have to keep pressure out of it, What would you say for people who...Elizabeth (12:21)So are we talking extremely picky eating or sort of your typical picky eater who's a teenager who's always been kind of picky?Anna Mackay (12:27)I would say the latter.Elizabeth (12:34)Okay, so in those situations, I would stick with what they're willing to eat and just really focus on that and not pressure them to eat. As you said, keep the pressure out of it. And you know, if the team's interested in increasing what they're eating, great. If they're not, I would let them be the driver on that. Because as teenagers get older, part of what they do is experiment, right? As part of their growth and development, and they're over time going to start to add in some new foods just on their own, right? They're going to see what their friends have and say, ⁓ maybe I'll try that. Right? And so that's how I think of it. There are going to be some kids who need a little bit more structure. But I think less is more. Less is more as long as they're meeting their nutritional needs. And if you're worried if they really don't eat many fruits and vegetables, you can always give them a a multivitamin. And I don't that's not always the answer. It's always you know, we always want kids to and adults to get what they need from the foods that they eat. But if you're worried they're not, it's not going to harm them to take a multivitamin, which can ease your mind, right? And ensure that they're— it's a little safety net.Anna Mackay (13:57)What if fruits and vegetables aren't the problem? If their selectiveness is more around protein? I think it's tricky for plant-based diets, for vegetarians.Elizabeth (14:15)Yes, that's really tough. That's really tough. I think if the kid is really picky and let's say they're vegetarian and they don't eat beans, right? Or let's say they're vegetarian and they don't eat nuts, right? those, or eggs, yes, yeah. Those are some major sources of protein. Yes, you can.Anna Mackay (14:30)Eggs.Elizabeth (14:37)Look to tofu to get some of those, some of that protein. And I think for teen athletes using protein powder can, I mean, it can really upset their stomachs. I say if a teen is really picky and they're plant-based, I would encourage them to think of themselves as a flexitarian and think about some non-plant-based, some animal products that they've eaten in the past that they might be willing to reintroduce so that they can get what they need. That is a tricky one.Taking your child to a dietitian can help because you can have someone outside of the family help with that. And I always encourage a dietitian with experience in eating disorder prevention, really well versed in it and a weight inclusive non-diet dietitian for that, which I know you would say the same thing. I that.Anna Mackay (15:36)I wholeheartedly agree. And I think that's where parents I've spoken to often say, well, how do you know when it's time to call a professional? And I think that is a juncture right there. You outlined it where if you find yourself as a parent trying to convince your child and you're getting a bit exasperated, you're feeling you're at a dead end.That's a great time to call a dietitian because they will, if it's a good fit particularly, and your kid may resist the idea, but be lighthearted about it. See, you know, just pitch it as, let's see how it goes. We're going to, this is all a part of supporting your, your wellbeing as an athlete. The dietitian should be able to make some inroads.And it might take a little bit of time, but it's better than you as the parent having to switch to pressuring.Elizabeth (16:31)Right. And then the teen who's working on becoming independent is very likely to push back. And so, yes, it may be hard to make any, to make any progress there. Yeah, that was a really good, that was a really good question, Anna. A good point to bring up. I'm curious also, and you kind of, we kind of touched on this with when I asked about kids who aren't entirely sure of their hunger cues, what about say a teen runner, well, it can be any athlete, but a teen athlete who wakes up in the morning and says, yeah, I don't want breakfast. I'm not hungry for, I don't want to eat breakfast. Or a teen athlete whose schedule is really packed and they're going right from class immediately to their practice, which we see so often because their schedules are so packed. Those are two questions again. I love to ask more than one question at once.Anna Mackay (17:26)So think the dietitian's answer is, and again, you chime in here if you've got something to add. Is that we want these kids having breakfast, lunch and dinner and some snacks. That is the way that we are going to ensure without a doubt that they're having an adequate amount of food.And that they're consistently getting it. Because as soon as you skip a meal, you then are going to have to make up for all the nutrients and calories in the next meal. And that is going to be for most teenagers, that's gonna be really hard. It's just gonna be hard. It's near impossible. Their tummies are still, you know, they're just not gonna be able to accommodate that amount, that volume.And if it becomes a habit, it can easily snowball into where then the tummy starts shrinking and then they really can't manage that amount of food. And then you're in the cycle of not being able to fuel adequately. So again, this may be where chatting with a dietitian for a few sessions, if they're really resisting breakfast could be helpful.Maybe sussing out why are they, it purely because they are so overwhelmed with their schedule and they're just a bit disorganized or whatever and it's just really hard in that way. In that scenario, I think you as the parent need to step in. And as they're running out the door, I've thrown, there's a protein bar, a banana and an overnight oats. You'll find it in your bag. And that's, that's completely fine.And a lot of teens will respond well to that and they'll have it and that's great. But if you feel like your teen is skipping it for another reason, then again, that's where I think the dietitian needs to come in.Elizabeth (19:14)One thing I was gonna say about breakfast, if a team athlete doesn't wanna eat breakfast, one thing you could do is, sit down, well, you don't have to sit down with them, but just kind of casually. Right? It's always better. It's a little more casual. What are some things that would work well for you for just an out the door breakfast? Right? Is it if I make you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? We eat that on the way to the bus or in the car on the way to school. And like you said, just grab and go foods, put them in their backpack.I think the more you can get the teens buy in and get their suggestions, the more likely they may be to eat those foods. It's tough. It's tough. And the other thing parents can do is if you notice your teens not having breakfast or they're just not, you know, they're saying, I'm not hungry, I'm not eating it. You might ask them how their practice is going, how they're feeling. Just say, how are you feeling throughout the day? I know you don't feel like eating breakfast. Let's work towards that. In the meantime, if you can pay attention just to how you feel, whether or not you're able to focus in class, what's your energy level like? So a parent could ask those questions if they feel like their teen would be receptive to it. Then onto my second question.My second part two of that two part question. What about a kid who doesn't have time in between class, the end of class and changing into their practice clothes and getting to practice?Anna Mackay (20:51)So being short on time just means you have to be prepared, right? There has to be, we are lucky that there are about eight zillion different bars on the market. Most of them are fine. wouldn't even, as a dietitian, I wouldn't even be like, well, this one's better than that one. I think you just need to find one you like.Elizabeth (21:02)Yes. And it has enough carbs in it.Anna Mackay (21:14)Fair point. So some of them are a little silly and they've, you know, they're very diety, maybe stay away from those ones, but find one you like, find one that your stomach agrees with, that's easy for you to digest and chuck that down. Right. You know, it's, it's easy to buy them in cases too. And they're, they are, they really do serve a purpose.Anna Mackay (21:41)Don't let anyone try and tell you that they're rubbish or it's junk food, because it's not. really serve a practical purpose, I think.Elizabeth (21:49)Agree. I agree. think they, like many foods, get a bad rap and diet culture or wellness culture kind of told us all that we shouldn't be having those bars. Yes, if someone's eating it instead of having a candy bar when they're really hungry for a candy bar, that's a whole different podcast episode.Anna Mackay (22:08)Yeah, and it's not dinner.Elizabeth (22:09)Right, exactly. It's a snack to get them through. So now my next question is when practice is over, you know, let's say they've got, I don't know, two hours before they are home and have dinner.Anna Mackay (22:22)I think my answer's the same. And what they might find is that the pre-practice, a bar is what feels best on the stomach and gives them enough to get through the practice and then after practice, maybe it's an electrolyte drink and half a peanut butter sandwich. So it would just be a little trial and error.Elizabeth (22:43)Yeah, yeah, I was just going to ask about the sports drinks because they also get, you know, there's a lot of, are they okay for kids to have? Should teens be having, teen athletes be having them? And I think they do, they serve a purpose, right? They can be so helpful in these situations.Anna Mackay (23:00)Water is the priority, but sports drinks with electrolytes are helpful. They just are, especially if you have long practices, 45 minutes or longer, and if you're a heavy sweater or you're working out, and know, it's quite hot here on the East Coast of the US at the moment. yes, it is. Even if you went out running for 35 minutes.You would probably be sweating profusely. A little bit of electrolytes and a drink could be really helpful in that scenario.Elizabeth (23:31)Yeah, yeah, for sure. So.Anna Mackay (23:34)Also, I think those electrolyte drinks, again, there's a zillion on the market now. Don't feel like you have to buy the ones with zero sugar in them. We just from a pure science point of view, and the sugar will be converted immediately to glucose, which will give you energy. We don't need to be scared of that. It'll assist in performance and it'll help you recover.Elizabeth (23:55)Yeah, such a good point. Such an important point. I want to ask one question that I thought of while we were talking. What about sweets and chips and foods like that? Foods like those that often, you know, we hear messages all the time that we want to be avoiding foods like that.Anna Mackay (24:14)They have a place, ice cream, chips, all the things. And look, if you are sprinting out the door and all of a sudden, I mean, we've all been here, my gosh, I forgot to grab the X, Y, O, Z that I was gonna grab, but it's all the way back in that part of the kitchen and I'm really in a rush and the jar of gummy bears is by the door. That is better than nothing, honestly. All these foods have a place. I would probably not recommend if a kid wants ice cream and chocolate covered pretzels for dinner and that's what they're having every night. I mean, that's a bit of a silly example, but you know, those foods definitely have a place and should not be demonized because demonizing them will always make them the forbidden fruit.And then they want them more. it also is just, creates, that goes back to when we were talking right at the beginning about having a flexible, healthy relationship with food. We want that to be with all foods, not just the foods that we think are the most nutritious foods.Elizabeth (25:14)Exactly. Exactly. And as I always say, all those foods like ice cream, for example, it's got fat, carbohydrate, protein, vitamin D, calcium, right? Has nutrients that our bodies need. Yeah. And nutrients that a teen athlete will need.Anna Mackay (25:32)Totally. think about a 16 year old girl or boy who are on the cross country team and they are running miles and miles and miles. Let's say they're already, those sports tend to attract quite lean builds. Two scoops of ice cream for a kid like that is fantastic. That's a great addition to their day in addition to their other meals.Mm-hmm not ever in place of in addition toElizabeth (26:01)Right. Well, I'm glad we touched on that.What about, I mean, I know what, I think I know what you're gonna, well, of course I know what you're gonna say. What advice do you have for parents to support teen athletes in getting enough on travel days and tournament days, right? I think of volleyball players, one of my younger, my older daughter played travel volleyball for a little, a short time. And wow, those tournament days. mean, yes, yeah.Anna Mackay (26:27)Hours and hours.Yeah, I mean, this is the packing, the planning and packing, right? And so I'll keep this answer short. Two pieces of advice. One is bring more than you think you'll need. And two is stick with those familiar, easily digestible foods. Don't go and try something brand new on a tournament day. I would say, yeah, stick with what you know.Elizabeth (26:40)Yes, great. And I would add that I want to add sometimes on social media, you'll see posts of the bento style lunch boxes, and people packing those that's not going to hold enough food for a teen athlete. It's not doesn't they don't hold enough for a teen. And they're definitely not going to hold enough for a teen athlete. And so you may need to pack two bento boxes or lunchbox with quite a few sides. So I think, yeah, that that to me is a very important piece of information because people do use those a lot, it seems, which is fine. There just has to be something added to them. Added to what's in the Bento style lunchbox. So again, it sounds like so much of this is planning and preparation. modeling by the parents.Anna Mackay (27:48)Yeah.Elizabeth (27:51)Encouraging the kids to really tune in to what they need, what their bodies, the signals that their bodies are telling them, as opposed to using external cues like watches and other kind of tracking devices.Anna Mackay (28:04)and TikTok.Elizabeth (28:05)Right, and TikTok, yes. my gosh, did I say that already? Yes, I did. The influence of the social media messages that these kids see. And YouTube, too, is a place that teens get a lot, teen athletes and teens get a lot of information that's harmful. Yeah. And so the parents, the teens, and the coaches are all up against that, for sure.So speaking of negative or harmful messages that kids, that teen athletes are seeing, what are some red flags that a teen may not be getting enough to eat to support their growth and activity levels? And even if it's framed as they're doing something, even if it's framed as healthy or performance-based.Anna Mackay (28:47)Well, so there's going to be some sort of symptoms. And then I'll also mention that someone can be under fueled and still gain weight or look sort of quote unquote normal. So I'll mention sort of some symptoms. So it'd be fatigue, physical weakness, decreased performance in their sport.Being moody, irritable, for girls would be a delayed or absent menstrual cycle, brittle nails, hair loss, poor concentration, slipping in school or academic slipping, socially withdrawing or showing a lack of interest in activities, being more susceptible to injury or illness, andYeah, okay, so sure, noticeable weight loss, certainly, but that's not always going to be a sign, it just can be. So I think that's a really important point to be aware that if all some of those other symptoms are present, but you're kind of going, but you know, they're not, they don't look different. I would still be alarmed.Elizabeth (29:53)Right, right. What's one thing that you wish every teen athlete and their parents and coaches understood about fueling teen athletes?Anna Mackay (30:03)When it comes to food, something is always, always better than nothing. Skipping out on a snack or worse, skipping an entire meal, it's going to sabotage your performance every single time. then, yeah, so food should come first.So, and also I'll just add that supplements, I think they take up like an entire supermarket aisle now.It is wild to me how much is on those shelves and much of it, if not all of it, the FDA doesn't regulate most of it. So it can be, there can literally be anything in these containers from ingredients that are listed, but they're not actually those ingredients. So I think be really, really, really wary of supplements, know, the creatines and the muscle builders and all that kind of stuff. It could be harmful ingredients in there.Elizabeth (30:59)Definitely. And kids, again, this stuff, they see it all over social media. All over.Anna Mackay (31:05)They do. another sign to be, think, to be aware of should be a red flag would be unusual stomach upset, cramping, you know, out of the ordinary diarrhea, know, gastro stuff that's kind of come out of out of the blue.Elizabeth (31:22)So last question as we wrap up here. And this kind of is an add-on to what we were talking about just a few minutes ago, where can parents and teens find supportive non-diet information on fueling teen athletes?Anna Mackay (31:40)So I will you can I would love to hear what you would recommend. I have to bashing social media. I have to say there are some very good social media accounts. There are. So there is a woman who is the assistant director for athletics at Purdue.And she, so she's a dietitian and she's been there for a long time and her social media account is really good, but it's very directed towards quite elite athletes. So just, I'll just put that out there, but her account's great. It's very, it's not diety and it's very, I think it's, it's bang on. This podcast?Elizabeth (32:22)They can listen to that.Anna Mackay (32:23)Side Up Nutrition, yeah. And you can look in in the Sunny Side Up library. There's all sorts of stuff in there at the website. And then I would say if you're the parent of a teen athlete and you've got lots of questions and you're finding social media, not really answering the questions.Elizabeth (32:41)Mm-hmm.Anna Mackay (32:42)Make an appointment with a dietitian. You've literally got nothing to lose and you might find that it a few sessions or just getting some more information is really helpful.Elizabeth (32:52)Yes, yes. And I think it's important to, for parents to, to remember to work with a non-diet weight inclusive registered dietitian. and if you're listening to this and you would like names of, of dietitians who could see your teen athlete, feel free to send us an email at hello@sunnysideupnutrition.com. And we can give you the names of some people. I know Anna has someone on her in her practice, actually, who worked for UNC University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, athletic department for many years. And so she's very, very, yeah, she's very knowledgeable. And I don't have a specific recommendation. There used to be a really wonderful, well you could still look at her social, look through her social media, the soccer nutritionist I think she was called.Anna Mackay (33:51)I know who you're talking about. can't think of the name off the top of my head, but I know who you're referring to.Elizabeth (33:56)Yes, I really liked her advice. I think also if a parent is or if a teen or a parent's looking for information, I do think any non-diet social media, most of it can be helpful, right? Because teens need to be, teen athletes need to be eating enough. Anything else? Any others that you can think of that you would recommend? Any books? Opal? Was it Opal podcast? I'll have to look that one up.Anna Mackay (34:27)So that treatment center out on the West Coast, they, don't know if they're still doing the podcast, but that's an excellent.Elizabeth (34:35)They have some great episodes.Anna Mackay (34:37)Yeah, in Australia, Shane Jeffries up in Brisbane, does performance nutrition. He's a great dietitian, runs a practice in Brisbane. And then there is also a great, and I'm sure the US has this too, but I'm trying to think of, it's called Oz Dances. It's AUS Dances. And this is a woman who, she is not a dietitian, but she, has worked with ballerinas for a really long time. And she does social, she has a social media site that talks a lot about warning signs for ballerinas, specifically for dancers. And her site has information for, that can then direct people, you know, they need a dietitian or another person in the dance world in Australia.Elizabeth (35:20)And we interviewed somebody who is a ballerina and dietitian. And all of a sudden, I'm embarrassed to say I cannot remember her name, but we will link.Anna Mackay (35:32)Is she in New York?Elizabeth (35:33)Yes. Yes. So we'll link to her podcast episode. And then there's Leslie Schilling, who's a dietitian who does a lot of sports nutrition and does sports nutrition training for dietitians. And she's wonderful. So we'll link to all these, all these resources in the show notes. All right, Anna, this has been awesome.Anna Mackay (35:51)This has been so fun. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com

FAN MAIL--We would love YOUR feedback--Send us a Text MessageThree devastating weeks of violence have left America reeling. From the senseless murder of Ukrainian refugee Iryna Zarutska on a Charlotte train to the horrific mass shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church in Minneapolis to the shocking assassination of conservative commentator Charlie Kirk, our nation stands at a crossroads where political division, mental illness, and spiritual decay threaten to tear apart the fabric of society.Iryna's story strikes at the heart of the American promise. Having fled war-torn Ukraine in 2022, she sought safety and opportunity on our shores, working multiple jobs while studying to become a veterinary assistant. Her random murder by a man with 14 previous criminal offenses and untreated mental illness reveals catastrophic failures in our systems. We're left asking painful questions: How could someone who escaped war die on an American train? Why was someone clearly dangerous allowed to remain in society?As political discourse devolves into dehumanization, as faith communities become targets, and as mental illness goes untreated, we witness the devastating consequences of decades of cultural decay. The killer's alleged connections to radical groups like Antifa highlight how online radicalization can transform political disagreement into deadly violence.Yet even in darkness, light emerges. Charlie Kirk's widow Erika delivered an astonishingly powerful message just days after losing her husband: "The cries of this widow will echo around the world like a battle cry." Her courage reminds us what's at stake and what's possible. Charlie's own words from his 2016 book "Turning Point" now read like prophecy, outlining a vision for America where traditional values, free markets, and individual liberty can flourish if properly messaged and embraced by younger generations.The path forward requires honest conversations about mental health resources, responsible rhetoric, spiritual renewal, and recommitment to fundamental American values. Key Points from the Episode:• Iryna Zarutska, a 23-year-old Ukrainian refugee who fled the Russian invasion, was fatally stabbed in an unprovoked attack on Charlotte's light rail• The perpetrator had 14 previous criminal offenses and was suffering from untreated paranoia and hearing voices• A mass shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church in Minneapolis killed two children and injured 17 others during a school mass• Conservative commentator Charlie Kirk was assassinated at Utah Valley University by a shooter who had been radicalized online• Erika Kirk, Charlie's widow, delivered a powerful message: "The cries of this widow will echo around the world like a battle cry"• Charlie's 2016 book "Turning Point" offers a roadmap for engaging young people in conservative politics and rebuilding American values• We must address liberal mental illness laws, confront political violence, and strengthen our spiritual foundation through Christian values• The path forward requires courage, conversation, and commitment to the principles that have always led America through dark timesLet's continue to engage and talk with our neighbors. As Charlie often said, it's only when you stop talking that violence begins. Let's keep living our best lives for those children in Minnesota, for Iryna, and for Charlie Kirk and his family so that we can make this a better nation.Other resources: MM#349--Kamalas War on the Free MarketWant to leave a review? Click here, and if we earned a five-star review from you **high five and knuckle bumps**, w

Welcome back to the 248th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 248th episode we have an episode of “The Cup: Editorial” in which Co-Artistic Producer Ryan Borochovitz and returning guest Dewy Stewart pull together various threads that have been on our mind around concepts of comedy, liveness, mass media, and mass culture – which all converge into an examination of the relationship between theatre, sitcoms, and Saturday Night Live. These two discuss live studio audiences, the boundaries of comedy, and possible futures for a less exclusionary artform.Follow our panelists: Dewey Stewart – Instagram: @deweystew & @brucecomedy Ryan Borochovitz – [Just send all that love to CoH instead; he won't mind!]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz Follow us on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Welcome back to the 247th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 247th episode we have a new artist interview. This particular conversation is between our Associate Artistic Producer Jillian Robinson and Yvonne Ng, major multi-hyphenate artist including Artistic Director of tiger princess dance projects and founder of Dance Made in Canada / Fait au Canada. These two discuss he power of curiosity, belonging, and being the f*%cking bird!Follow tigerprincessdanceprojects – Instagram/Facebook: @tigerprincessdanceprojects Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

EP807: After a long day of confusion and fear, Bryan & Krissy get back to what they know best...ADHD comedy and Mountain Monsters! Take a break with the TCB team as we review the kidnapped MM's and the killer of the Stonish Giant. TCB Clips: Ice Cream Man! Watch EP #829 on YouTube! Text us or leave us a voicemail: +1 (212) 433-3TCB FOLLOW US: Instagram:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@thecommercialbreak⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Youtube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠youtube.com/thecommercialbreak⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@tcbpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.tcbpodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ CREDITS: Hosts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bryan Green⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ &⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Krissy Hoadley⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer: Bryan Green Producer: Astrid B. Green Voice Over: Rachel McGrath TCBits & TCB Tunes, Logo, Name and Audio Assets: Owned, Written, Voiced and Produced by Bryan Green. Rights Reserved To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this introductory episode to their new series on the Parables of Jesus, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore the profound theological significance of Christ's parables. Far from being mere teaching tools to simplify complex ideas, parables serve a dual purpose in God's redemptive plan: revealing spiritual truth to those with "ears to hear" while concealing these same truths from those without spiritual illumination. This episode lays the groundwork for understanding how parables function as divine teaching devices that embody core Reformed doctrines like election and illumination. As the hosts prepare to journey through all the parables in the Gospels, they invite listeners to consider the blessing of being granted spiritual understanding and the privilege of receiving the "secrets of the kingdom" through Christ's distinctive teaching method. Key Takeaways Parables are more than illustrations—they are comparisons that reveal kingdom truths to those with spiritual ears to hear while concealing truth from those without spiritual illumination. Jesus intentionally taught in parables not to simplify his teaching but partly to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy about those who hear but do not understand, confirming the spiritual condition of his hearers. The ability to understand parables is itself evidence of God's sovereign grace and election, as Jesus states in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." Parables vary in form and function—some are clearly allegorical while others make a single point, requiring each to be approached on its own terms. Proper interpretation requires context—understanding both the original audience and the question or situation that prompted Jesus to use a particular parable. Parables function like Nathan's confrontation of David—they draw hearers in through narrative before revealing uncomfortable truths about themselves. Studying parables requires spiritual humility—recognizing that our understanding comes not from intellectual capacity but from the Spirit's illumination. Understanding Parables as Revelation, Not Just Illustration The hosts emphasize that parables are fundamentally different from mere illustrations or fables. While modern readers often assume Jesus used parables to simplify complex spiritual truths, the opposite is frequently true. As Tony explains, "A parable fundamentally is a comparison between two things... The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside." This distinction is crucial because it changes how we approach interpretation. Rather than breaking down each element as an allegorical component, we should first understand what reality Jesus is comparing the parable to. The parables function as a form of divine revelation—showing us kingdom realities through narrative comparison, but only those with spiritual insight can truly grasp their meaning. This is why Jesus quotes Isaiah and explains that he speaks in parables partly because "seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13). The Doctrine of Election Embedded in Parabolic Teaching Perhaps the most profound insight from this episode is how the very form of Jesus' teaching—not just its content—embodies the doctrine of election. Jesse notes that "every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election," because they reveal spiritual truth to some while concealing it from others. This isn't arbitrary but reflects spiritual realities. The hosts connect this to Jesus' words in Matthew 13:16: "Blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear." This blessing comes not from intellectual capacity or moral superiority but from God's sovereign grace. Tony describes this as "the blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." The parables thus become a "microcosm" of Reformed doctrines like election, regeneration, and illumination. When believers understand Jesus' parables, they're experiencing the practical outworking of these doctrines in real time. Memorable Quotes "The parables are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit." - Tony Arsenal "Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him... And so this is like, I love the way that he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense." - Jesse Schwamb "But blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. There's a blessing in our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation." - Tony Arsenal About the Hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb are the regular hosts of The Reformed Brotherhood podcast, where they explore Reformed theology and its application to Christian living. With a conversational style that balances depth and accessibility, they seek to make complex theological concepts understandable without sacrificing nuance or biblical fidelity. Transcript [00:00:45] Introduction and New Series Announcement [00:00:45] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 460 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. New series Time, new series. Time for the next seven years that, that's probably correct. It's gonna be a long one. New beginnings are so great, aren't they? And it is. [00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: We've been hopefully this, well, it's definitely gonna live up to all the hype that we've been presenting about this. It's gonna be good. Everybody's gonna love it. And like I said, it's a topic we haven't done before. It's certainly not in this format. [00:01:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, just, um, as a side note, if you are a listener, which you must be, if you're hearing this, uh, this is a great time to introduce someone to the podcast. [00:01:33] Tony Arsenal: True. Uh, one, because this series is gonna be lit as the kids say, and, uh, it's a new series, so you don't have to have any background. You don't have to have any previous knowledge of the show or of who these two weird guys are to jump in and we're gonna. [00:01:53] Tony Arsenal: Talk about the Bible, which is amazing and awesome. And who doesn't love to talk about the Bible. [00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's correct. That's what makes these so good. That's how I know, and I could say confidently that this is gonna be all the hype and more. All right, so before we get to affirmations and denials, all the good ProGo, that's part and parcel of our normal episode content. [00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: Do you want to tell everybody what we're gonna be talking about? [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'm excited. [00:02:17] Introducing the Parables Series [00:02:17] Tony Arsenal: So we are gonna work our way through, and this is why I say it's gonna take seven years. We are gonna work our way through all of the parables. Parables, [00:02:25] Jesse Schwamb: the [00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: gospels and just so, um, the Gospel of John doesn't feel left out. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna talk through some of the I am statements and some of that stuff when we get to John. 'cause John doesn't have a lot of parables. Uh, so we're gonna spend time in the synoptic gospels. We're gonna just walk through the parables one by one. We're taking an episode, sometimes maybe two, sometimes 10, depending on how long the parable is and how deep we get into it. [00:02:47] Tony Arsenal: We're just gonna work our way through. We're gonna take our time. We're gonna enjoy it. So again, this is a great time to start. It's kinda the ground floor on this and you thing. This could really be its own podcast all by itself, right? Uh, so invite a friend, invite some whole bunch of friends. Start a Sunday school class listening to this. [00:03:04] Tony Arsenal: No, don't do that. But people have done that before. But, uh, grab your bibles, get a decent commentary to help prep for the next episode, and, uh, let's, let's do it. I'm super excited. [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: When I say para, you say Abel Para, is that how it works? Para? Yeah. I don't know. You can't really divide it. Pairable. If you jam it together, yes. [00:03:24] Jesse Schwamb: You get some of that. You can say, when I say pair, you say Abel p [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: Abel. [00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: And you can expect a lot more of that in this series. But before we get into all this good juicy stuff about parables, and by the way, this is like an introductory episode, that doesn't mean that you can just skip it, doesn't mean it's not gonna be good. We gotta set some things up. We wanna talk about parables general generally, but before we have that good general conversation, let's get into our own tradition, which is either affirming with something or denying against something. [00:03:54] Affirmations and Denials [00:03:54] Jesse Schwamb: And so, Tony, what do you got for all of us? [00:03:58] Tony Arsenal: Mine is kind of a, an ecclesial, ecclesiastical denial. Mm-hmm. Um, this is sort of niche, but I feel like our audience may have heard about it. And there's this dust up that I, I noticed online, uh, really just this last week. Um, it's kind of a specific thing. There is a church, uh, I'm not sure where the church is. [00:04:18] Tony Arsenal: It's a PCA church, I believe it's called Mosaic. The pastor of the church, the teaching elder, one of the teaching elders just announced that he was, uh, leaving his ministry to, uh, join the Roman Catholic Church, which, yes, there's its own denial built into that. We are good old Protestant reformed folks, and I personally would, would stick with the original Westminster on the, the Pope being antichrist. [00:04:45] Tony Arsenal: But, um, that's not the denial. The denial is that in this particular church. For some unknown reason. Uh, the pastor who has now since a announced that he was leaving to, uh, to convert to Roman Catholicism, continued to preach the sermon and then administered the Lord's supper, even though he in the eyes, I think of most. [00:05:08] Tony Arsenal: Reformed folk and certainly historically in the eyes of the reformed position was basically apostate, uh, right in front of the congregation's eyes. Now, I don't know that I would necessarily put it that strongly. I think there are plenty of genuine born again Christians who find themselves in, in the Roman Catholic, uh, church. [00:05:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, but to allow someone who is one resigning the ministry right in front of your eyes. Um, and then resigning to basically leave for another tradition that, that the PCA would not recognize, would not share ecclesiastical, uh, credentials with or accept their ordination or any of those things. Um, to then just allow him to admit, you know, to administer the Lord's Supper, I think is just a drastic miscarriage of, uh, ecclesiastical justice. [00:05:54] Tony Arsenal: I dunno if that's the right word. So I'm just denying this like. It shows that on a couple things like this, this. Church this session, who obviously knew this was coming. Um, this session does either, does not take seriously the differences between Roman Catholic theology and Protestant theology, particularly reformed theology, or they don't take seriously the, the gravity of the Lord's supper and who should and shouldn't be administering it. [00:06:22] Tony Arsenal: They can't take both of those things seriously and have a fully or biblical position on it. So there's a good opportunity for us to think through our ecclesiology, to think through our sacrament and how this applies. It just really doesn't sit well and it's not sitting well with a lot of people online, obviously. [00:06:37] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I'm sure there'll be all sorts of, like letters of concern sent to presbytery and, and all that stuff, and, and it'll all shake out in the wash eventually, but just, it just wasn't good. Just doesn't sit right. [00:06:48] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me of all the denominations. I'm not saying this pejoratively. I just think it is kind of interesting and funny to me that the Presbyterians love a letter writing campaign. [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Like that's kind of the jam, the love, a good letter writing campaign. [00:07:00] Tony Arsenal: It's true, although it's, it's actually functional in Presbyterianism because That's right. That's how you voice your concern. It's not a, not a, a rage letter into the void. It actually goes somewhere and gets recorded and has to be addressed at presbytery if you have standing. [00:07:17] Tony Arsenal: So there's, there's a good reason to do that, and I'm sure that that will be done. I'm sure there are many. Probably ministers in the PCA who are aware of this, who are either actually considering filing charges or um, or writing such letters of complaints. And there's all sorts of mechanisms in the PCA to, to adjudicate and resolve and to investigate these kinds of things. [00:07:37] Jesse Schwamb: And I'd like to, if you're, if you're a true Presbyterian and, and in this instance, I'm not making light of this instance, but this instance are others, you. Feel compelled by a strong conviction to write such a letter that really you should do it with a quill, an ink. Like that's the ultimate way. I think handwritten with like a nice fountain pen. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: There's not, yeah. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like that's, that is a weighty letter right there. Like it's cut to Paul being like, I write this postscript in my own hand with these big letters. Yeah, it's like, you know, some original Presbyterian letter writing right there. [00:08:07] Tony Arsenal: And then you gotta seal it with wax with your signe ring. [00:08:10] Tony Arsenal: So, and send it by a carrier, by a messenger series of me messengers. [00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Think if you receive any letter in the mail, handwritten to you. Like for real, somebody painstakingly going through in script like spencerian script, you know, if you're using English characters writing up and then sealing that bad boy with wax, you're gonna be like, this is important. [00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, this, even if it's just like, Hey, what's up? Yeah, you're gonna be like, look at this incredible, weighty document I've received. [00:08:36] Tony Arsenal: It's true. It's very true. I love it. Well, that's all I have to say about that to channel a little Forrest Gump there. Uh, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight? [00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'm also going to deny against, so this denial is like classic. [00:08:49] Jesse Schwamb: It's routine, but I got a different spin on it this time, so I'm denying against. The full corruption of sin, how it appears everywhere, how even unbelievers speak of it, almost unwittingly, but very commonly with great acceptance. And the particularity of this denial comes in the form of allergies, which you and I are talking about a lot of times. [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: But I was just thinking about this week because I had to do some allergy testing, which is a, a super fun experience. But it just got me think again, like very plainly about what allergies are. And how an allergy occurs when your immune system, like the part of your body responsible for protecting your body that God has made when your immune system mistakes like a non-harmful substance like pollen or a food or some kind of animal dander for a threat, and then reacts by producing these antibodies like primarily the immunoglobulin E. [00:09:36] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what strikes me as so funny about this in a, in a way that we must laugh. Because of our, our parents, our first parents who made a horrible decision and we like them, would make the same decision every day and twice in the Lord's day. And that is that this seems like, of course, such a clear sign of the corruption of sin impounded in our created order because it seems a really distasteful and suboptimal for human beings to have this kind of response to pollen. [00:10:03] Jesse Schwamb: When they were intended to work and care in a garden. So obviously I think we can say, Hey, like the fact that allergies exist and that it's your body making a mistake. [00:10:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:10:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's like the ultimate, like cellular level of the ubiquity of sin. And so as I was speaking with my doctor and going through the, the testing, it's just so funny how like we all talk about this. [00:10:25] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, yeah, it's, it's a really over-indexed reaction. It doesn't make any sense. It's not the way the world is supposed to be, but nobody's saying how is the world supposed to be? Do you know what I mean? Like, but we just take it for granted that that kind of inflammation that comes from like your dog or like these particles in the air of plants, just trying to do a plant stew and reproduce and pollinate that, that could cause like really dramatic and debilitating. [00:10:49] Jesse Schwamb: Responses is just exceptional to me, and I think it's exceptional and exceptional to all of us because at some deep level we recognize that, as Paul says, like the earth, the entire world is groaning. It's groaning for that eschatological release and redemption that can only come from Christ. And our runny noses in our hay fever all prove that to some degree. [00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So denying against allergies, but denying against as well that ubiquity of corruption and sin in our world. [00:11:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just have this image in my head of Adam and Eve, you know, they're expelled outta the garden and they, they're working the ground. And then Adam sneezes. Yes. And Eve is like, did your head just explode? [00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: And he's like, I don't know. That would've been a, probably a pretty terrifying experience actually. [00:11:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's that's true. So imagine like you and I have talked about this before, because you have young children, adorable. Young children, and we've talked about like the first of everything, like when you're a child, you get sick for the first time, or you get the flu or you vomit for the first time. [00:11:45] Jesse Schwamb: Like you have no idea what's going on in your body, but imagine that. But being an adult. [00:11:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, where you can process what's going on, but don't have a framework for it. [00:11:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly. So like [00:11:54] Tony Arsenal: that's like, that's like my worst nightmare I think. [00:11:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's like, to your point, 'cause there, there are a lot of experiences you have as an adults, even health wise that are still super strange and weird. [00:12:01] Jesse Schwamb: But [00:12:02] Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:12:02] Jesse Schwamb: you have some rubric for them, but that's kind of exactly what I was thinking. What if this toiling over your labor is partly because it's horrible now because you have itchy, watery eyes or you get hives. Yeah. And before you were like, I could just lay in the grass and be totally fine. And now I can't even walk by ragweed without getting a headache or having some kind of weird fatigue. [00:12:23] Jesse Schwamb: Like I have to believe that that was, that part of this transition was all of these things. Like, now your body's gonna overreact to stuff where I, I, God put us in a place where that wouldn't be the case at all. [00:12:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Sometimes I think about like the first. Time that Adam was like sore or like hurt himself. [00:12:42] Tony Arsenal: True. Like the, just the, just the terror and fear that must have come with it. And sin is serious stuff. Like it's serious effects and sad, sad, sad stuff. But yeah, allergies are the worst. I, uh, I suffered really badly with, uh, seasonal allergies. When I was a a kid I had to do allergy shots and everything and it's makes no sense. [00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: There's no rhyme or reason to it, and your allergies change. So like you could be going your whole life, being able to eat strawberries and then all of a sudden you can't. Right? And it's, and you don't know until it happens. So [00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: what's up with that? [00:13:15] Tony Arsenal: No good. [00:13:16] Jesse Schwamb: What's up with that? So again, imagine that little experience is a microcosmic example of what happens to Adam and Eve. [00:13:24] Jesse Schwamb: You know, like all these things change. Like you're, you're right. Suddenly your body isn't the same. It's not just because you're growing older, but because guess what? Sins everywhere. And guess what, where sin is, even in the midst of who you are as physically constructed and the environment in which you live, all, all totally change. [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: So that, that's enough of my rants on allergies. I know the, I know the loved ones out there hear me. It's also remarkable to me that almost everybody has an allergy of some kind. It's very, it's very rare if you don't have any allergies whatsoever. And probably those times when you think you're sick and you don't have allergies could be that you actually have them. [00:13:57] Jesse Schwamb: So it's just wild. Wild. [00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Agreed. Agreed. [00:14:03] Theological Discussion on Parables [00:14:03] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, without further ado, I'm not, I, maybe we should have further ado, but let's get into it. Let's talk about some parable stuff. [00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, let's do it again. When I say pair, you say able pair. [00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Able. [00:14:20] Jesse Schwamb: When I say [00:14:21] Tony Arsenal: para you say bowl. [00:14:24] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I was trying to go with before. [00:14:26] Jesse Schwamb: It's a little bit more, yeah, but you gotta like cross over like we both gotta say like that middle syllable kind of. Otherwise it's, it sounds like I'm just saying bowl. And [00:14:34] Tony Arsenal: yeah, there's no good way to chant that. Yeah, we're work. This is why Jesse and I are not cheerleaders. [00:14:39] Jesse Schwamb: We're, we're work shopping everybody. [00:14:40] Jesse Schwamb: But I agree with you. Enough of us talking about affirmations, the denials in this case, the double double denial. Let's talk about parables. So the beauty of this whole series is there's gonna be so much great stuff to talk about, and I think this is a decent topic for us to cover because. Really, if you think about it, the parables of Jesus have captivated people for the entirety of the scriptures. [00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: As long, as long as they were recorded and have been read and processed and studied together. And, uh, you know, there's stuff I'm sure that we will just gloss over. We don't need to get into in terms of like, is it pure allegory? Is it always allegory? Is it, there's lots of interpretation here. I think this is gonna be our way of processing together and moving through some of these and speaking them out and trying to learn principally. [00:15:28] Jesse Schwamb: Predominantly what they're teaching us. But I say all that because characters like the prodigal son, like Good Samaritan, Pharisees, and tax collector, those actually have become well known even outside the church. [00:15:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And [00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: then sometimes inside the church there's over familiarity with all of these, and that leads to its own kind of misunderstanding. [00:15:46] Jesse Schwamb: So, and I think as well. I'm hoping that myself, you and our listeners will be able to hear them in a new way, and maybe if we can try to do this without again, being parabolic, is that we can kind of recreate some of the trauma. In these stories. 'cause Jesus is, is pressing upon very certain things and there's certainly a lot of trauma that his original audiences would've taken away from what he was saying here. [00:16:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Even just starting with what is a parable and why is Jesus telling them? So I presume that's actually the best place for us to begin is what's the deal with the parables and why is this? Is this Jesus preferred way of teaching about the kingdom of God. [00:16:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think, you know, it bears saying too that like not all the parables are alike. [00:16:35] Tony Arsenal: Like true. We can't, this is why I'm excited about this series. You know, it's always good to talk through the bible and, and or to talk through systematic theology, but what really excites me is when we do a series like this, kind of like the Scott's Confession series, like it gives us a reason. To think through a lot of different disciplines and flex like exercise and stretch and flex a lot of different kinds of intellectual muscles. [00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: So there's gonna be some exegetical work we have to do. There's gonna be some hermeneutical work we're gonna have to do, probably have to do some historical work about how the parables have been interpreted in different ways. Yes, and and I think, so, I think it's important to say like, not every parable is exactly the same. [00:17:14] Tony Arsenal: And this is where I think like when you read, sometimes you read books about the, the parables of Christ. Like you, you'll hear one guy say. Well, a parable is not an allegory. Then you'll hear another guy say like, well, parables might have allegorical elements to it. Right. Now if one guy say like, well, a parable has one main point, and you'll have another guy say like, well, no, actually, like parables can have multiple points and multiple shades of meaning. [00:17:37] Tony Arsenal: And I think the answer to why you have this variance in the commentaries is 'cause sometimes the parables are alleg. [00:17:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And [00:17:44] Tony Arsenal: sometimes they're not allegorical. Sometimes they have one main point. Sometimes there's multiple points. So I think it's important for us to just acknowledge like we're gonna have to come to each parable, um, on its own and on its own terms. [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: But there are some general principles that I think we can talk about what parables are. So parables in general are. Figurative stories or figurative accounts that are used to illustrate, I think primarily used to illustrate a single main point. And there may be some subpoints, but they, they're generally intended to, uh, to illustrate something by way of a, of a narrative, a fictional narrative that, uh, helps the reader. [00:18:27] Tony Arsenal: Uh, or the hearer is just, it's also important that these were primarily heard, these are heard parables, so there are even times where the phrasing of the language is important in the parable. Um, they're helping the, the hearer to understand spiritual truth. And this is where I think it's it's key, is that this is not just. [00:18:48] Tony Arsenal: When we're talking about the parables of Christ, right? There's people tell parables, there's all sorts of different teachers that have used parables. Um, I, I do parables on the show from time to time where I'll tell like a little made up story about a, you know, a situation. I'll say like, pretend, you know, let's imagine you have this guy and he's doing this thing that's a form of a parable when I'm using. [00:19:08] Tony Arsenal: I'm not, it's not like a makeup made up story. It's not asaps fables. We're not talking about like talking foxes and hens and stuff, but it's illustrating a point. But the parables of Christ are not just to illustrate a point, they're to reveal a spiritual point or spiritual points to those who have ears to hear, to those who've been illuminated by the spirit. [00:19:29] Tony Arsenal: And I just wanna read this. Uh, this is just God's providence, um, in action. I, um, I've fallen behind on my reading in The Daily Dad, which is a Ryan Holiday book. This was the reading that came up today, even though it's not the correct reading for the day. Uh, it's, it's for September 2nd. We're recording this on September, uh, sixth. [00:19:48] Tony Arsenal: Uh, and the title is, this is How You Teach Them. And the first line says, if the Bible has any indication, Jesus rarely seemed to come out and say what he meant. He preferred instead to employ parables and stories and little anecdotes that make you think. He tells stories of the servants and the talents. [00:20:03] Tony Arsenal: He tells stories of the prodigal son and the Good Samaritan. Turns out it's pretty effective to get a point across and make it stick. What what we're gonna learn. Actually that Jesus tells these stories in parables, in part to teach those who have spiritual ears to hear, but in part to mask the truth That's right. [00:20:24] Tony Arsenal: From those who don't have spiritual ears to hear, oh, online [00:20:26] Jesse Schwamb: holiday. [00:20:27] Tony Arsenal: So it's not as simple as like Jesus, using illustration to help make something complicated, clearer, right? Yes. But also, no. So I'm super excited to kind of get into this stuff and talk through it and to, to really dig into the parables themselves. [00:20:42] Tony Arsenal: It's just gonna be a really good exercise at sort of sitting at the feet of our master in his really, his preferred mode of teaching. Um, you know, other than the sermon on the Mount. There's not a lot of like long form, straightforward, didactic teaching like that most of Christ's teaching as recorded in the gospels, comes in the form of these parables in one way or another. [00:21:03] Tony Arsenal: Right. And that's pretty exciting to me. [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right. And there's so many more parables I think, than we often understand there to be, or at least then that we see in like the headings are Bible, which of course have been put there by our own construction. So anytime you get that. Nice short, metaphorical narrative is really Jesus speaking in a kind of parable form, and I think you're right on. [00:21:25] Jesse Schwamb: For me, it's always highlighting some kind of aspect of the kingdom of God. And I'd say there is generally a hierarchy. There doesn't have to be like a single point, like you said. There could be other points around that. But if you get into this place where like everything has some kind of allegory representation, then the parable seems to die of the death of like a million paper cuts, right? [00:21:40] Jesse Schwamb: Because you're trying to figure out all the things and if you have to represent something, everything he says with some kind of. Heavy spiritual principle gets kind of weird very quickly. But in each of these, as you said, what's common in my understanding is it's presenting like a series of events involving like a small number of characters. [00:21:57] Jesse Schwamb: It is bite-sized and sometimes those are people or plants or even like inanimate objects. So like the, yeah, like you said, the breadth and scope of how Jesus uses the metaphor is brilliant teaching, and it's even more brilliant when you get to that level, like you're saying, where it's meant both to illuminate. [00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: To obfuscate. That is like, to me, the parable is a manifestation of election because it's clear that Jesus is using this. Those who have the ears to hear are the ones whom the Holy Spirit has unstopped, has opened the eyes, has illuminated the hearts and the mind to such a degree that can receive these, and that now these words are resonant. [00:22:32] Jesse Schwamb: So like what a blessing that we can understand them, that God has essentially. Use this parabolic teaching in such a way to bring forward his concept of election in the minds and the hearts of those who are his children. And it's kind of a way, this is kind of like the secret Christian handshake. It's the speakeasy of salvation. [00:22:52] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's coming into the fold because God has invited you in and given you. The knowledge and ability of which to really understand these things. And so most of these little characters seemed realistic and resonant in Jesus' world, and that's why sometimes we do need a little bit of studying and understanding the proper context for all those things. [00:23:12] Jesse Schwamb: I would say as well, like at least one element in those parables is a push. It's in, it's kind of taking it and hyping it up. It's pushing the boundaries of what's plausible, and so you'll find that all of this is made again to illuminate some principle of the kingdom of God. And we should probably go to the thing that you intimated, because when you read that quote from, from Ryan Holiday, I was like, yes, my man. [00:23:34] Jesse Schwamb: Like he's on the right track. Right? There's something about what he's saying that is partially correct, but like you said, a lot of times people mistake the fact that, well, Jesus. Is using this language and these metaphors, these similes, he speaks in parables because they were the best way to get like these uneducated people to understand him. [00:23:57] Jesse Schwamb: Right? But it's actually the exact opposite. And we know this because of perhaps the most famous dialogue and expression and explanation of parables, which comes to us in Matthew 13, 10 through 17, where Jesus explains to his disciples exactly why he uses this mode of teaching. And what he says is. This is why I speak to them of parables because seeing they do not see and hearing, they do not hear they nor do they understand. [00:24:24] Jesse Schwamb: So, so that's perplexing. We should probably camp there for just a second and talk about that. Right, and, and like really unpack like, what is Jesus after here? Then if, like, before we get into like, what do all these things mean, it's almost like saying. We need to understand why they're even set before us and why these in some ways are like a kind of a small stumbling block to others, but then this great stone of appreciation and one to stand on for for others. [00:24:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think you know, before we, before we cover that, which I think is a good next spot. A parable is not just an illustration. Like I think that's where a lot of people go a little bit sideways, is they think that this is effectively, like it's a fable. It's like a made up story primarily to like illustrate a point right. [00:25:09] Tony Arsenal: Or an allegory where you know, you're taking individual components and they represent something else. A parable fundamentally is a, is a, a comparison between two things, right? The word parable comes from the Greek of casting alongside, and so the idea is like you're, you're taking. The reality that you're trying to articulate and you're setting up this parable next to it and you're comparing them to it. [00:25:33] Tony Arsenal: And so I like to use the word simile, like that's why Christ says like the kingdom of God is like this. Yes. It's not like I'm gonna explain the kingdom of God to you by using this made up story. Right on. It's I'm gonna compare the kingdom of God to this thing or this story that I'm having, and so we should be. [00:25:49] Tony Arsenal: Rather than trying to like find the principles of the parable, we should be looking at it and going, how does this parable reflect? Or how is this a, um, how is this an explanation? Not in the, like, I, I'm struggling to even explain this here. It's not that the cer, the parable is just illustrating a principle. [00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: It's that the kingdom of God is one thing and the parable reveals that same one thing by way of comparison. Yes. So like. Uh, we'll get into the specifics, obviously, but when the, when the, um, lawyer says, who is my neighbor? Well, it's not just like, well, let's look at the Good Samaritan. And the Good Samaritan represents this, and the Levite represents this, and the priest represents this. [00:26:32] Tony Arsenal: It's a good neighbor, is this thing. It's this story. Compared to whatever you have in your mind of what a good neighbor is. And we're gonna bounce those things up against each other, and that's gonna somehow show us what the, what the reality is. And that's why I think to get back to where we were, that's why I think sometimes the parables actually obscure the truth. [00:26:53] Tony Arsenal: Because if we're not comparing the parable to the reality of something, then we're gonna get the parable wrong. So if we think that, um, the Good Samaritan. Is a parable about social justice and we're, we're looking at it to try to understand how do we treat, you know, the, the poor people in Africa who don't have food or the war torn refugees, you know, coming out of Ukraine. [00:27:19] Tony Arsenal: If we're looking at it primarily as like, I need to learn to be a good neighbor to those who are destitute. Uh, we're not comparing it against what Jesus was comparing it against, right? So, so we have to understand, we have to start in a lot of cases with the question that the parable is a response to, which oftentimes the parable is a response to a question or it's a, it's a principle that's being, um, compare it against if we get that first step wrong, uh, or if we start with our own presuppositions, which is why. [00:27:50] Tony Arsenal: Partially why I think Christ is saying like, the only those who have ears to hear. Like if you don't have a spiritual presupposition, I, I mean that, that might not be the right word, but like if you're not starting from the place of spiritual illumination, not in the weird gnostic sense, but in the, the. [00:28:07] Tony Arsenal: Genuinely Christian illumination of the Holy Spirit and inward testimony of the Holy Spirit. If you're not starting from that perspective, you almost can't get the parables right. So that's why we see like the opponents of Christ in the Bible, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, constantly. They're constantly confused and they're getting it wrong. [00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: And, and even sometimes the disciples, they have to go and ask sometimes too, what is this parable? Wow, that's right. What is, what does this mean? So it's never as simple as, as what's directly on the surface, but it's also not usually as complicated as we would make it be if we were trying to over-interpret the parable, which I think is another risk. [00:28:44] Jesse Schwamb: That's the genius, isn't it? Is that I I like what you're saying. It's that spiritual predisposition that allows us to receive the word and, and when we receive that word, it is a simple word. It's not as if like, we have to elevate ourselves in place of this high learning or education or philosophizing, and that's the beauty of it. [00:29:03] Jesse Schwamb: So it is, again, God's setting apart for himself A, a people a teaching. So. But I think this is, it is a little bit perplexing at first, like that statement from Jesus because it's a bit like somebody coming to you, like your place of work or anywhere else in your family life and asking you explicitly for instruction and, and then you saying something like, listen, I, I'm gonna show you, but you're not gonna be able to see it. [00:29:22] Jesse Schwamb: And you're gonna, I'm gonna tell you, but you're not gonna be able to hear it, and I'm gonna explain it to you, but you're not gonna be able to understand. And you're like, okay. So yeah, what's the point of you talking to me then? So it's clear, like you said that Jesus. Is teaching that the secrets, and that's really, really what these are. [00:29:37] The Secrets of the Kingdom of God [00:29:37] Jesse Schwamb: It's brilliant and beautiful that Jesus would, that the, the son of God and God himself would tell us the secrets of his kingdom. But that again, first of all by saying it's a secret, means it's, it's for somebody to guard and to hold knowledge closely and that it is protected. So he says, teaching like the secrets of the kingdom of God are unknowable through mere human reasoning and intuition. [00:29:56] Jesse Schwamb: Interestingly here though, Jesus is also saying that. He's, it's not like he's saying no one can ever understand the parables, right, or that he intends to hide their truth from all people. [00:30:07] Understanding Parables and God's Sovereign Grace [00:30:07] Jesse Schwamb: Instead, he just explains that in order to highlight God's sovereign grace, God in his mercy has enlightened some to whom it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven. [00:30:17] Jesse Schwamb: That's verse 11. So. All of us as his children who have been illuminated can understand the truth of God's kingdom. That is wild and and that is amazing. So that this knowledge goes out and just like we talk about the scripture going out and never returning void, here's a prime example of that very thing that there is a condemnation and not being able to understand. [00:30:37] Jesse Schwamb: That condemnation comes not because you're not intelligent enough, but because as you said, you do not have that predisposition. You do not have that changed heart into the ability to understand these things. [00:30:47] Doctrine of Election and Spiritual Insight [00:30:47] Jesse Schwamb: This is what leads me here to say like every parable then implicitly teaches a doctrine of election. [00:30:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, because all people are outside the kingdom until they enter the Lord's teaching. How do we enter the Lord's teaching by being given ears to hear. How are we understanding that? We have been given ears to hear when these parables speak to us in the spiritual reality as well as in just like you said, like this general kind of like in the way that I presume Ryan Holiday means it. [00:31:12] Jesse Schwamb: The, this is like, he might be exemplifying the fact that these stories. Are a really great form of the ability to communicate complex information or to make you think. [00:31:21] The Power and Purpose of Parables [00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: So when Jesus says something like The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, wow, we, you and I will probably spend like two episodes just unpacking that, or we could spend a lot more, that's beautiful that that's how his teaching takes place. [00:31:34] Jesse Schwamb: But of course it's, it's so much. More than that, that those in whom the teaching is effective on a salvation somehow understand it, and their understanding of it becomes first because Christ is implanted within them. Salvation. [00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:48] Parables as More Than Simple Teaching Tools [00:31:48] Tony Arsenal: I think people, and this is what I think like Ryan Holiday's statement reflects, is people think of the parables as a simple teaching tool to break down a complicated subject. [00:32:00] Tony Arsenal: Yes. And so, like if I was trying to explain podcasting to a, like a five-year-old, I would say something like, well, you know. You know how your teacher teaches you during class while a podcast is like if your teacher lived on the internet and you could access your teacher anytime. Like, that might be a weird explanation, but like that's taking a very complicated thing about recording and and RSS feeds and you know, all of these different elements that go into what podcasting is and breaking it down to a simple sub that is not what a parable is. [00:32:30] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. A parable is not. Just breaking a simple subject down and illustrating it by way of like a, a clever comparison. Um, you know, it's not like someone trying to explain the doctrine of, of the Trinity by using clever analogies or something like that. Even if that were reasonable and impossible. [00:32:50] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's not like that a parable. I like what you're saying about it being kind of like a mini doctrine of election. It's also a mini doctrine of the Bible. Yes. Right. It, it's right on. [00:33:00] The Doctrine of Illumination [00:33:00] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's the doctrine of revelation. In. Preached form in the Ministry of Christ, right? As Christians, we have this text and we affirm that at the same time, uh, what can be known of it and what is necessary for salvation can be known. [00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: By ordinary means like Bart Iman, an avowed atheist who I, I think like all atheists, whether they recognize it or not, hates God. He can read the Bible and understand that what it means is that if you trust Jesus, you'll be saved. You don't need special spiritual insight to understand that that is what the Bible teaches, where the special spiritual. [00:33:42] Tony Arsenal: Insight might not be the right word, but the special spiritual appropriation is that the spirit enables you to receive that unto your salvation. Right? To put your trust in. The reality of that, and we call that doctrine, the doctrine of illumination. And so in, in the sense of parables in Christ's ministry, and this is, this is if you, you know, like what do I always say is just read a little bit more, um, the portion Jesse read it leads way into this prophecy or in this comment, Christ. [00:34:10] Tony Arsenal: Saying he teaches in parable in order to fulfill this prophecy of Isaiah. Basically that like those who are, uh, ate and are apart from God and are resistant to God, these parables there are there in order to confirm that they are. And then it says in verse 16, and this is, this is. [00:34:27] The Blessing of Spiritual Understanding [00:34:27] Tony Arsenal: It always seems like the series that we do ends up with like a theme verse, and this is probably the one verse 16 here, Matthew 1316 says, but blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. [00:34:40] Tony Arsenal: And so like there's a blessing. In our salvation and in our election that we are enabled to hear and perceive and re receive the very voice and word of God into our spirit unto our salvation. That is the doctrine of of election. It's also the doctrine of regeneration, the doctrine of sanctification, the doctrine. [00:35:03] Tony Arsenal: I mean, there's all of these different classic reformed doctrines that the parables really are these mic this microcosm of that. Almost like applied in the Ministry of Christ. Right. Which I, I, you know, I've, I've never really thought of it in depth in that way before, but it's absolutely true and it's super exciting to be able to sort of embark on this, uh, on this series journey with, with this group. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: I think it's gonna be so good to just dig into these and really, really hear the gospel preached to ourselves through these parables. That's what I'm looking forward to. [00:35:38] Jesse Schwamb: And we're used to being very. Close with the idea that like the message contains the doctrine, the message contains the power. Here we're saying, I think it's both. [00:35:47] Jesse Schwamb: And the mode of that message also contains, the doctrine also contains the power. And I like where you're going with this because I think what we should be reminding ourselves. Is what a blessing it is to have this kind of information conferred to us. [00:36:01] The Role of Parables in Revealing and Concealing Truth [00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: That again, God has taken, what is the secrets that is his to disclose and his to keep and his to hold, and he's made it available to his children. [00:36:08] Jesse Schwamb: And part of that is for, as you said, like the strengthening of our own faith. It's also for condemnation. So notice that. The hiding of the kingdom through parables is not a consequence of the teaching itself. Again, this goes back to like the mode being as equally important here as the message itself that Christ's teaching is not too difficult to comprehend as an intellectual matter. [00:36:27] Jesse Schwamb: The thing is, like even today, many unbelievers read the gospels and they technically understand what Jesus means in his teaching, especially these parables. The problem is. I would say like moral hardness. It's that lack of spiritual predilection or predisposition. They know what Jesus teaches, but they do not believe. [00:36:47] Jesse Schwamb: And so the challenge before us is as all scripture reading, that we would go before the Holy Spirit and say, holy Spirit, help me to believe. Help me to understand what to believe. And it so doing, do the work of God, which is to believe in him and to believe in His son Jesus Christ and what he's accomplished. [00:37:02] Jesse Schwamb: So the parables are not like creating. Fresh unbelief and sinners instead, like they're confirming the opposition that's already present and apart from Grace, unregenerate perversely use our Lord's teaching to increase their resistance. That's how it's set up. That's how it works. That's why to be on the inside, as it were, not again, because like we've done the right handshake or met all the right standards, but because of the blood of Christ means that the disciples, the first disciples and all the disciples who will follow after them on the other hand. [00:37:33] The Complexity and Nuances of Parables [00:37:33] Jesse Schwamb: We've been granted these eyes to see, and ears to hear Jesus. And then we've been given the secrets of the kingdom. I mean, that's literally what we've been given. And God's mercy has been extended to the disciples who like many in the crowds, once ignorantly and stubbornly rejected God and us just like them as well in both accounts. [00:37:49] Jesse Schwamb: So this is, I think we need to settle on that. You're right, throughout this series, what a blessing. It's not meant to be a great labor or an effort for the child of God. Instead, it's meant to be a way of exploring these fe. Fantastic truths of who God is and what he's done in such a way that draw us in. [00:38:07] Jesse Schwamb: So that whether we're analyzing again, like the the lost coin or the lost sheep, or. Any number of these amazing parables, you'll notice that they draw us in because they don't give us answers in the explicit sense that we're used to. Like didactically instead. Yeah. They cause us to consider, as you've already said, Tony, like what does it mean to be lost? [00:38:26] Jesse Schwamb: What does it mean that the father comes running for this prodigal son? What does it mean that the older brother has a beef with the whole situation? What does it mean when Jesus says that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed? How much do we know about mustard seeds? And why would he say that? Again, this is a kind of interesting teaching, but that illumination in the midst of it being, I don't wanna say ambiguous, but open-ended to a degree means that the Holy Spirit must come in and give us that kind of grand knowledge. [00:38:55] Jesse Schwamb: But more than that, believe upon what Jesus is saying. I think that's the critical thing, is somebody will say, well, aren't the teaching simple and therefore easy to understand. In a sense, yes. Like factually yes, but in a much greater sense. Absolutely not. And that's why I think it's so beautiful that he quotes Isaiah there because in that original context, you the, you know, you have God delivering a message through Isaiah. [00:39:17] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. The people are very clear. Like, we just don't believe you're a prophet of God. And like what you're saying is ridiculous, right? And we just don't wanna hear you. This is very different than that. This is, Jesus is giving this message essentially to all who will listen to him, not necessarily hear, but all, all who are hear Him, I guess rather, but not necessarily all who are listening with those spiritual ears. [00:39:33] Jesse Schwamb: And so this is like, I love the way that he, he uses that quote in a slightly different way, but still to express the same root cause, which is some of you here. Because of your depravity will not be able to hear what I'm saying. But for those to whom it has been granted to come in who are ushered into the kingdom, this kingdom language will make sense. [00:39:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's like, I'm going to be speaking to you in code and half of you have the key for all the code because the Holy Spirit is your cipher and half of you don't. And you're gonna, you're gonna listen to the same thing, but you will hear very different things. [00:40:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the other thing I think is, is interesting to ponder on this, um. [00:40:12] The Importance of Context in Interpreting Parables [00:40:12] Tony Arsenal: God always accommodates his revelation to his people. And the parables are, are, are like the. Accommodated accommodation. Yeah. Like God accommodates himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. And in some ways this is, this is, um, the human ministry of Christ is him accommodating himself to those. [00:40:38] Tony Arsenal: What I mean is in the human ministry of the Son, the parables are a way of the son accommodating himself to those he chooses to reveal himself to. So there, there are instances. Where the parable is said, and it is, uh, it's seems to be more or less understood by everybody. Nobody asks the question about like, what does this mean? [00:40:57] Tony Arsenal: Right? And then there are instances where the parable is said, and even the apostles are, or the disciples are like, what does this parable mean? And then there's some interesting ones where like. Christ's enemies understand the parable and, and can understand that the parable is told against them. About them. [00:41:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So there, there's all these different nuances to why Christ used these parables, how simple they were, how complicated they were. Yes. And again, I think that underscores what I said at the top of the show here. It's like you can't treat every parable exactly the same. And that's where you run into trouble. [00:41:28] Tony Arsenal: Like if you're, if you're coming at them, like they're all just simple allegory. Again, like some of them have allegorical elements. I think it's fair to look at the, the prodigal son or the, the prodigal father, however you want to title that. And remember, the titles are not, generally, the titles are not, um, baked into the text itself. [00:41:46] Tony Arsenal: I think it's fair to come to that and look at and go, okay, well, who's the father in this? Who's the son? You know, what does it mean that the older son is this? Is, is there relevance to the fact that there's a party and that the, you know, the older, older, uh, son is not a part of it? There's, there's some legitimacy to that. [00:42:02] Tony Arsenal: And when we look at Christ's own explanation of some of his parables, he uses those kinds, right? The, the good seed is this, the, the seed that fell on the, the side of the road is this, right? The seed that got choked out by the, the, um, thorns is this, but then there are others where it doesn't make sense to pull it apart, element by element. [00:42:21] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the other thing is there are some things that we're gonna look at that are, um. We're gonna treat as parables that the text doesn't call a parable. And then there are some that you might even look at that sometimes the text calls a parable that we might not even think of as a normal parable, right? [00:42:38] Tony Arsenal: So there's lots of elements. This is gonna be really fun to just dig stuff in and, and sort of pick it, like pull it apart and look at its component parts and constituent parts. Um, so I really do mean it if you, if you're the kind of person who has never picked up a Bible commentary. This would be a good time to, to start because these can get difficult. [00:42:59] Tony Arsenal: They can get complicated. You want to have a trusted guide, and Jesse and I are gonna do our, our work and our research on this. Um, but you want someone who's more of a trusted guide than us. This is gonna be the one time that I might actually say Calvin's commentaries are not the most helpful. And the reason for that is not because Calvin's not clear on this stuff. [00:43:17] Tony Arsenal: Calvin Calvin's commentaries on the gospel is, is a harmony of the gospels, right? So sometimes it's tricky when you're reading it to try to find like a specific, uh, passage in Matthew because you're, you, everything's interwoven. So something like Matthew Henry, um, or something like, um, Matthew Poole. Uh, might be helpful if you're willing to spend a little bit of money. [00:43:38] Tony Arsenal: The ESV expository commentary that I've referenced before is a good option. Um, but try to find something that's approachable and usable that is reasonable for you to work through the commentary alongside of us, because you are gonna want to spend time reading these on your own, and you're gonna want to, like I said, you're gonna want to have a trust guide with you. [00:43:55] Tony Arsenal: Even just a good study bible, something like. The Reformation Study Bible or something along those lines would help you work your way through these parables, and I think it's valuable to do that. [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: Something you just said sparked this idea in me that the power, or one of the powers maybe of good fiction is that it grabs your attention. [00:44:15] The Impact of Parables on Listeners [00:44:15] Jesse Schwamb: It like brings you into the plot maybe even more than just what I said before about it being resonant, that it actually pulls you into the storyline and it makes you think that it's about other people until it's too late. Yeah. And Jesus has a way of doing this that really only maybe the parable can allow. [00:44:30] Jesse Schwamb: So like in other words, by the time you realize. A parable is like metaphorical, or even in a limited case, it's allegorical form you've already identified with one or more of the characters and you're caught in the trap. So what comes to my mind there is like the one Old Testament narrative, virtually identical, informed to those Jesus told is Nathan's parable of the You lamb. [00:44:52] Jesse Schwamb: So that's in like second Samuel 12, and I was just looking this up as you were, as you were speaking. So in this potentially life and death move for the prophet Nathan confronts King David. Over his adultery with, or depending on how you see it, rape of Bathsheba, and then his subsequent murder of her husband Uriah, by sending him to the front lines of battle. [00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: So he's killed. And so in this parable that Nathan tells Uriah is like the poor man. Bathsheba is like the Yu a and the rich man obviously represents David. If you, you know what I'm talking about, go back and look at second Samuel 12. And so what's interesting is once David is hooked into that story, he cannot deny that his behavior was unjust as that of the rich man in the story who takes this UAM for himself and he, which he openly. [00:45:38] Jesse Schwamb: Then David openly condemns of course, like the amazing climax of this. And as the reader who has. Of course, like omniscient knowledge in the story, you know, the plot of things, right? You're, you're already crying out, like you're throwing something, you know, across the room saying like, how can you not see this about you? [00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: And of course the climax comes in when Nathan points the finger at David and declares, you are the man. And that's kind of what. The parables due to us. Yes. They're not always like the same in accusatory toward us, but they do call us out. This is where, again, when we talk about like the scripture reading us, the parable is particularly good at that because sometimes we tend to identify, you know, again, with like one of the particular characters whom we probably shouldn't identify with, or like you said, the parable, the sower. [00:46:22] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't the Christian always quick to be like, I am the virtual grounds? Yeah. You still have to ask like, you know, there is not like a Paul washer way of doing this, but there is like a way of saying like, checking yourself before you wreck yourself there. And so when Jesus's parables have lost some of that shock value in today's world, we maybe need to contemporize them a little bit. [00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I, and I think we'll talk about that as we go through it. We're not rewriting them for any reason that that would be completely inappropriate. Think about this though. Like the Jew robbed and left for dead. And you know the story of the Grace Samaritan may need to become like the white evangelical man who is helped by like the black Muslim woman after the senior pastor and the worship leader from the local reformed church passed by like that. [00:47:05] Jesse Schwamb: That might be the frame, which we should put it to try to understand it whenever we face a hostile audience that this indirect rhetoric of compelling stories may help at least some people hear God's world more favorably, and I think that's why you get both like a soft. And a sharp edge with these stories. [00:47:20] Jesse Schwamb: But it's the ability to, to kind of come in on the sneak attack. It's to make you feel welcomed in and to identify with somebody. And then sometimes to find that you're identifying entirely with a character whom Jesus is gonna say, listen, don't be this way, or This is what the kingdom of God is, is not like this. [00:47:35] Jesse Schwamb: Or again, to give you shock value, not for the sake of telling like a good tale that somehow has a twist where it's like everybody was actually. All Dead at the end. Another movie, by the way, I have not seen, but I just know that that's like, I'll never see that movie because, can we say it that the spoiler is, is out on that, right? [00:47:54] Tony Arsenal: Are we, what are we talking about? What movie are we talking about? [00:47:56] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I don't, I don't wanna say it. I didn't [00:47:57] Tony Arsenal: even get it from your description. Oh. [00:47:59] Jesse Schwamb: Like that, that movie where like, he was dead the whole time. [00:48:02] Tony Arsenal: Oh, this, that, that, that movie came out like 30 years ago, Jesse. Oh, seriously? [00:48:06] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. All right. [00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: So Six Sense. [00:48:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. That movie came out a long time ago. [00:48:10] Jesse Schwamb: So it's not like the parables are the sixth sense, and it's like, let me get you like a really cool twist. Right. Or like hook at the end. I, and I think in part it is to disarm you and to draw you in in such a way that we might honestly consider what's happening there. [00:48:22] Jesse Schwamb: And that's how it reads us. [00:48:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's a good point. And, and. It bears saying there are all sorts of parables all throughout the Bible. It's not just Jesus that teaches these, and they do have this similar effect that they, they draw you in. Um, oftentimes you identify it preliminarily, you identify with the wrong person, and it's not until you. [00:48:45] Tony Arsenal: Or you don't identify with anyone when you should. Right. Right. And it's not until the sort of punchline or I think that account with Nathan is so spot on because it's the same kind of thing. David did not have ears to hear. [00:48:58] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Until he had That's good point. Ears [00:49:00] Tony Arsenal: to hear. [00:49:00] Jesse Schwamb: Good point. [00:49:01] Tony Arsenal: And he heard the point of the parable. [00:49:03] Tony Arsenal: He understood the point of the parable and he didn't understand that the parable was about him, right? It's like the ultimate, I don't know why you're clapping David, I'm talking about you moment. Um, I'm just have this picture of Paul washer in like a biblical era robe. Um, so I think that's a enough progam to the series. [00:49:20] Preparing for the Series on Parables [00:49:20] Tony Arsenal: We're super excited we're, we'll cover some of these principles again, because again, different parables have to be interpreted different ways, and some of these principles apply to one and don't to others, and so we'll, we'll tease that out when we get there next week. We're gonna just jump right in. [00:49:34] Tony Arsenal: We're gonna get started with, I think, um, I actually think, you know, in the, the providence of, of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and then obviously the providence of God in Christ's ministry, the, the parable that kind of like frames all of the other parables,

ปัจจุบันนี้ คุณภาพของการบริการอาจไม่ใช่จุดแข็งในอุตสาหกรรมการท่องเที่ยวอีกต่อไปแล้ว แต่อาวุธที่แข็งแกร่งที่แท้จริงคือใคร ‘เข้าใจข้อมูล' ได้ลึกกว่า . รู้จัก Travel Link ศูนย์กลางข้อมูลขนาดใหญ่ที่จะช่วยผู้ประกอบการใช้ Data ยกระดับธุรกิจและสร้างโอกาสใหม่ในอุตสาหกรรมการท่องเที่ยวไทย . โดยรายการพอดแคสต์ MM ในวันนี้จะพาทุกคนไปเปิดประตูสู่โอกาสใหม่ของอุตสาหกรรมการท่องเที่ยว กับรองศาสตราจารย์ ดร. ธีรณี อจลากุล ผู้อำนวยการสถาบันข้อมูลขนาดใหญ่ (BDI ผู้ขับเคลื่อน “TRAVEL LINK”  แพลตฟอร์มข้อมูลอัจฉริยะ ที่จะช่วยผู้ประกอบการด้านการท่องเที่ยวเข้าถึงข้อมูลเชิงลึก สร้างกลยุทธ์ที่แข็งแกร่ง และต่อยอดธุรกิจสู่ความสำเร็จในอนาคต     . . #TravelLink  #ขับเคลื่อนการท่องเที่ยวไทยด้วยข้อมูลที่เชื่อมถึงกัน #MissionToTheMoon #MissionToTheMoonPodcast

Hier, j'ai oublié de publier la Minute Marine. Un simple oubli, pas dramatique, mais qui m'a mis un coup. Dans cette MM, je reviens sur ce petit bug d'organisation, ce qu'il dit de mon système (encore perfectible), de mon ego de créatrice de contenu, et du confort que j'ai découvert à avoir un peu d'avance. Et toi ? Ça t'arrive de faire des boulettes, toi aussi ? (Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

ปัจจุบันนี้ คุณภาพของการบริการอาจไม่ใช่จุดแข็งในอุตสาหกรรมการท่องเที่ยวอีกต่อไปแล้ว แต่อาวุธที่แข็งแกร่งที่แท้จริงคือใคร ‘เข้าใจข้อมูล' ได้ลึกกว่า . รู้จัก Travel Link ศูนย์กลางข้อมูลขนาดใหญ่ที่จะช่วยผู้ประกอบการใช้ Data ยกระดับธุรกิจและสร้างโอกาสใหม่ในอุตสาหกรรมการท่องเที่ยวไทย . โดยรายการพอดแคสต์ MM ในวันนี้จะพาทุกคนไปเปิดประตูสู่โอกาสใหม่ของอุตสาหกรรมการท่องเที่ยว กับรองศาสตราจารย์ ดร. ธีรณี อจลากุล ผู้อำนวยการสถาบันข้อมูลขนาดใหญ่ (BDI ผู้ขับเคลื่อน “TRAVEL LINK”  แพลตฟอร์มข้อมูลอัจฉริยะ ที่จะช่วยผู้ประกอบการด้านการท่องเที่ยวเข้าถึงข้อมูลเชิงลึก สร้างกลยุทธ์ที่แข็งแกร่ง และต่อยอดธุรกิจสู่ความสำเร็จในอนาคต     . . #TravelLink  #ขับเคลื่อนการท่องเที่ยวไทยด้วยข้อมูลที่เชื่อมถึงกัน #MissionToTheMoon #MissionToTheMoonPodcast

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Tiff and Kristy break down the concept of work-life balance, and why so many people can't seem to acquire it. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am back today and you know, this is me Spiffy Tiffy I never say my name and I just assume everyone knows me. I actually this is a funny story. I actually had ⁓ Someone the other day it was a child was like, ⁓ you record podcasts you you're on a podcast Are you famous and I said well maybe in the dental world like for ⁓   small, tiny percentage, people might know who I am. So, it's Spiffy Tiffy, Tiffanie, I'm here, I've been here for a while, and I'm just super excited to bring so much fun and joy, and one of our core values is fun, and it has been Kiera and I's core value since the day we met, and that is one that I have refused to get rid of, even though every year we update our core values and they shift and change a little bit, fun has stayed there. The definition of fun has evolved and been   tailored down to what we want it to be, but it has remained and I think we have some fun. So I hope you guys have fun on this podcast. I hope you enjoy it. I have Kristy here with me today and she is ready to rock out some fun, you guys. And I, you know, we've already recorded one this morning and Kristy, you said it perfectly. I was going deep and I don't know. It's a feeling today. We got a lot of leadership stuff we're chatting about and I feel like goodness gracious, Kristy, you're my gal. You keep me centered. You keep me calm.   DAT Kristy (01:07) Thank   The Dental A Team (01:21) and you allow me the space to go deep. So thank you for being here. Thank you for recording so many podcasts with me and just for being you, Kristy. How are you?   DAT Kristy (01:30) Good, thank you. I'm excited to be here. It's always a good time when we can get together and help with anything ⁓ with our doctors, hopefully up and coming doctors, new to dental aging doctors. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (01:42) Yeah. Yes. Right? Yes.   I agree. I totally agree. And I love that you said that because there are so many listeners here. I think sometimes I forget, we get a lot of clients that have listened to our podcast in the past and that's how they found us. And it's just such an incredible resource to be able to get information to people and a tool to be able to reach so many new dentists. And then Kristy, I think I forget when they come,   from the podcast, right? Or they've listened to the podcast in the past and came from, I don't know, Zenist advisors. They maybe said, hey, talk to these ladies, they're great. Whomever, wherever, however they found us, I forget that they still listen. And then I'll have a client that's like, I get texts sometimes that's like, Tiff, I'm listening to this one, and you just said this, or Kristy said this, Trish, and I get these texts from clients that I've had for years. And I'm like, my gosh, that's funny. I didn't even consider the fact that you   You were still here. So repeat offenders. Thank you so much for being here. We love you guys. So like Kristy said, clients who are here. Hello. Um, those of you who are listeners and maybe you're just like, no, Tiff, I am a listener. I'm a diehard listener and I will be here for that. Hello. And if you're a listener who's like, gosh, I just keep thinking about it. I keep considering and this information is great. And these ladies sound amazing, but today's not about it's and, and, and.   DAT Kristy (02:43) you   The Dental A Team (03:10) I'm gonna call them because whether you say yes to success and you're our newest client or you say this is incredible information, I'm gonna implement some of these tools that you just gave me and we'll talk again soon. We're here for it. I want you guys to understand that we are not the company that you call and it's like, if you don't say yes, we never talk to you again. No, you say yes and, right? Yes, this was great information.   and I'm ready to start. Yes, this is great information and I'm gonna go implement it I'll talk to you soon. Okay, pressure's off. So just call us. That was great, Kristy. I think that was a wonderful reminder to everyone. There's literally no pressure. Gosh, Kristy, I love you for so many things and today I am just loving on you for leadership communication, conversations and just like effective balance, right?   We have a fun topic here, and I told you I have some tangents on it, and I think you do too, and I think we align pretty well on this topic. We really wanted to chat, and there's a newsletter. If you're subscribed to our newsletters, you should be getting a newsletter as well that will have similar, probably very different conversations in it, but make sure you're signed up for our newsletters that you're getting that as well. So today's topic, this moment's topic, is work-life balance. And I...   get asked this by a multitude of professionals, whether they are team members, leaders, managers, owners, doctors, dentists, I don't know, and financial advisors, like anyone under the sun who does a job, I have heard, I want work-life balance, TIF, how do I have work-life balance? And I think it's a really tricky statement, and I think it's overused and misunderstood. And I think you just need   balance. My opinion is by separating, Kristy, tell me if I'm crazy. By separating and saying I want work-life balance. It's like saying I have a life and I have work. For me, I have a life and I work within that life. I don't have my work-life that is like, in your brain, it just creates these two separate entities that then you're trying to smash together. It's like saying I'm a dentist.   and I'm a chiropractor and I want to do both out of my office. So I want to, while I'm drilling and doing this crown, I also want to be cracking their neck. You can't do that. It's literally impossible. So I think saying I want balance in my life is more clear and more understood than I want work life balance, which confuses it and makes it feel impossible. It feels literally difficult when I say I want work life balance.   it in my body feels difficult. It feels hard. But when I say I want balance, that feels achievable. That is like graspable. can see it. I know what it feels like to have balance. So I can emanate it. I can mimic the feeling in my body and I can find it. And I just think people just misunderstand that. But Kristy.   What are your thoughts on it? How do you feel about the term work-life balance? And then we'll get into, I promise you we'll get into how to achieve some of this balance. But Kristy, first, think definitions are always most important. So tell me your thoughts.   DAT Kristy (06:39) I know we never want to go like political or anything like that in that realm, but listening to you takes me back to growing up and hearing how moms entering the workforce and how can they work and be a mom. And so it just, kind of makes me laugh. And honestly, what you said is spot on. I don't, I don't know how you can do both at the same time, but   The Dental A Team (06:52) Yeah.   DAT Kristy (07:06) but I do think you can be wear many hats. It's just how do we devote our time to it? So identifying, honestly going back to the results, what are we looking for in the first place? So when you say work-life balance, tell me more about that. What does that mean? What does that mean to you? Because it may mean something different to somebody else. I for one get,   a lot of gratification from my work and purpose from it. So it brings a lot to my life. So to separate, yeah, I can't. But to devote certain amount of time to certain things, I can grasp that 100%.   The Dental A Team (07:51) Yeah, I love that clarity that you brought even to maybe like potentially realizing where the term comes from, because I agree with you. think that that is a huge space and a huge learning curve for everyone. And we're still kind of in it. think we're, I think we're still so much in that world. It's 2025, but we are still so much in that world of moms and not even just moms, but   primary caretakers coming into the workforce or primary caretakers also working. And it's like that, I think you're right. I think that is a confusing factor. And I love what you said that work gives you, it provides something positive to your life. So to keep those separate feels wrong. And I think so many of our leaders and our dentists feel that same way, which also confuses it. And you said,   tell me more, tell me what that looks like. And I know I've asked the question before and I've had a doctor be like, that means I'm home before 5.30 so that I can cook dinner for my family. I'm like, that's easy. Like, what's keeping you at the office? Like, why are you there? Right? Like, let's remove some obstacles. And I've had doctors that are like, well, I have a doctor that was like, Tiff, I wanna work three and a half days a week and I wanna make a million dollars in collections a year. Cool.   He's like, then I can be home. I be with my kids. I can do all the things. And he does, he does that. That's his work life balance. And, and that's his balance, right? His balance is being able to target and hit all of this areas of his life that are important. And Kristy, it makes me think of, ⁓ in March, we did our in-person event with so many of our amazing platinum doctors came out to visit us and their office managers. And we did a blocked scheduling, ⁓ exercise for.   personal life and like for our ourselves and for crowns, root canals, etc. So by personal life, mean like ourselves and what we did it was super cool of really looking at the like six areas of our lives six to eight areas of our lives that are truly valuable and important that we want to contribute to so, you know your relationships your marriage your work ⁓   DAT Kristy (09:52) Hahaha!   The Dental A Team (10:13) Right? Remember in Summit, I forgot to add work in there. ⁓ If you were there for Summit, you guys are laughing. But all those different areas that make us who we are and where we want to show up in life, and then time blocking and saying, this is how much time, like you said, time, this is how much time I want to dedicate to this area for it to feel valuable and balanced, because it's not all going to be equal.   I'm not gonna spend as much time maybe going on dates with my boyfriend and having one-on-one time as I am recording podcasts and showing up for my clients. That doesn't mean it's imbalanced. That would be wild. He would go crazy if I were spending that much time like, we're going on a date or we're going on a river cruise. I don't even know what we would do with that amount of time. Couple times a year for our long vacations, we do that and it balances.   When we say work-life balance, it almost sounds and feels like we're looking for equality between the time spent. And that's just, it's just not realistic. There are a lot of people who have more time outside of work that they're doing other things with their life. And then there are other people who are like, no, I'm passionate about my job and I want to pour into it. That's their balance. And I think you nailed it, Kristy, by really   keying in on that time and saying how valuable it is to consider that there's even more than just work and quote unquote life. Like there are attributes to your life that need that value and that time consideration.   DAT Kristy (11:53) I almost wonder Tiff, like listening to you talk, we almost have to identify, like the first question should be what's missing, right? Because really why is that even a term, work-life balance? Wouldn't you agree it's likely there's something missing in that equation, so how can we do more of it? And the other part that...   The Dental A Team (12:03) Yeah. Yeah.   Totally agree.   DAT Kristy (12:22) Again, you know me, queen of analogies, but it's like people come in to the office and they go into hygiene and they're like, are you flossing your teeth? No, I hate flossing my teeth. Well, you need to be flossing every day. Why do we go from zero to a hundred? Like, can we maybe start with, how about flossing Monday, Wednesday, Friday instead of all or nothing, right? So I almost feel like that question, work-life balance needs to start with what's missing that I need more of.   The Dental A Team (12:35) Yeah.   Yes.   I love that because there's a gap we're not seeing and we feel out of alignment and we're not taking the time to step back and see it. And I think you're spot on because there's an area of life, the six to eight components, how many ever there are, there's an area that's out of alignment with the definition of balance for you. Kristy, I think what you're really good at and what you said even earlier was, well, what does that mean? Right? You're really good at   speaking to your clients in a clear and kind way and asking questions that evoke thought and results. So when you ask those kinds of questions to your clients, I've seen them, I've watched them, I join all of our consultants' calls at some point or another. So I've seen this happen live. They are able to give themselves the space to find it because you interrupted their thought pattern with something different so that they could   think of it from a different point of view. And I think it's just really, really something that is missed in a lot of consulting that's just systems focused, right? Like we are systems focused, we do provide systems, but we're people focused first because without this, without these kinds of definitions, your systems aren't, they're not gonna stick. I promise you, they're just not gonna stick, okay? We've seen it. So Kristy, something you do really well with your clients is,   DAT Kristy (14:09) Thank   The Dental A Team (14:16) keying into those definitions and then asking the thought provoking questions, you might even already have the answer, right? You are like, I know exactly, but if you tell the person, right, they're like, maybe, but if you evoke the thought process, interrupt those thought patterns and get them shifted onto a different, it's kind of, makes me think of when you're driving along, driving along and you're like, shoot, there's a detour.   And then you like scooch over to the next road. It's detouring you on and you're like, wow, these are beautiful houses. Like I've never been down this road and I've lived on this street for 20 years, right? But your pattern was disrupted and you were able to see something new and beautiful and fresh. And, or sometimes you're like, wow, this is ugly. I can't believe I live this close to this street or this, like sometimes you go down and you're like, what is this building? Like this looks horrible.   DAT Kristy (14:58) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (15:11) Right, so sometimes you open a door and you're like, wow, that is really ugly and I have got to spend some attention there. Doesn't mean every time we open a door, it's gonna be like rainbows and butterflies, right? But sometimes we open a door that's like, I need to sprinkle some magic fairy dust in here because this is a space that needs some attention. And Kristy, I think you truly do open those doors for clients. And my question in that, ⁓   What do you think that opens up for them? So you open those doors, you get their thinking differently, but then how does that process change their business ownership and their, literally their profitability? Like these pieces that we work on with our clients, how do you see it totally improve the reasons that they come to us, right? They say systems, profitability, we want to pay our team more, we want a more engaged team.   that system change, that thought process change, how do you see that positively affecting those things that they've come to us for?   DAT Kristy (16:15) Yeah, well, to back up one notch, Tiff, even finding out like their why, once we get there, I think it's also asking one more question of, okay, wonderful, that's what you want, right? We've identified that. ⁓ What will it give you? And it's usually something emotional, right? So then when we're doing the hard work, we can remind them back to that this is what you were looking for.   And again, it's if we're off track, did your vision of what we want change or are we still going for this? Okay, great, we're still going for this and that helps them get the momentum back for getting there. will ⁓ you repeat your question for me, sorry.   The Dental A Team (17:00) Yeah.   No, I talked a lot. Thank you. ⁓ My question was, when we do get these definitions in place and figure out what does balance mean? Why are we doing this? And I think you're right. When we know that why, then the balance is easier to find because we know what's going to support the why. So once that's discovered, which you do very quickly for your clients, I again have watched it happen.   What do you see the positive impacts on the business, the leadership? Because they come to us, right? And they say, I want systems, I want profitability, want a happy team. Like, how do you see those things improve by defining these and really improving their personal selves and finding that balance?   DAT Kristy (17:41) Yeah, so I believe that when we identify it and we start working toward it, they do start to feel a sense of balance. And so when they are back in the rut of things or in the weeds of things, they approach it more refreshed. They have a different outlook. It's not a drain on them. And so literally, it's the same thing as like when we start coaching, all ask clients, know, how much time are you spending working on your business? How many team meetings are you having?   Well, we used to, but we don't. And I'm just a firm believer that the time we spend working on the business, you will achieve outcome because you're in a sense creating that balance to then when you are in the business, you're a lot more effective. I've seen it time and time again, you know, even to the point where... ⁓   I have one client that literally she takes off two more weeks a year, but she's producing the same this year on trajectory to make more. literally the first year she took those extra two weeks off, she's making just as much as she did the year prior, but she gained time, right? So when she achieved that balance of the goal to be able to take time to do X, Y, Z, she identified it. Then when she's there,   The Dental A Team (18:47) Yeah.   them. Yeah.   DAT Kristy (19:05) She's way more productive and focused on what she's doing. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (19:10) I agree. And   I've seen that with your clients, I've seen that with mine, I've seen it with Monica's, Trish's, Dana's, everybody's clients. I've seen that exact thing happen where you're just, when you have that balance, you have a better sense of ease in life. I think when you're misbalanced, when you're out of alignment, I know I have a doctor that we've worked with that, this doctor is an amazing human being and showed up.   and was just like, I have to work, I have to do this, I have to grind, I'm the only one that can. And I think we hear that a lot. And so then they almost get to the point where they don't know how to not do that and feel successful, first of all. And then they don't know how to, then they don't know how, they start resenting their work. And when you resent your work, you're slower, you're less detailed, you really care less, so your diagnosis goes down.   acceptance goes down, your schedule starts falling apart, because the universe is like, oh, you don't really like this, let me take it away from you. Hygiene falls apart, team members start quitting, and it's typically because, again, like my example earlier, I had a doctor that was like, I just want to be home by 530. Then do it. Typically, it's because we're there till six, seven, eight o'clock at night, because we think we're the only ones who can. It's so out of alignment that everything else just sucks, and we start to hate it.   DAT Kristy (20:26) Yep.   The Dental A Team (20:32) But when we can find that balance and even just defining it brings the balance to center stage and it's much easier, that I totally agree with you. That's when we're intentional with our time. And when we're intentional with our time at work, we bust through things quicker, we enjoy it, we diagnose better, we are more invested in our patients than the outcome. And so case acceptance naturally increases. And we've seen like, we've seen huge.   huge profitability increases, 30 % within three months I've seen because they were intentional, they did the things they had to do and they listened, they implemented really freaking well and they were like, all right, Kristy, I believe you, I trust you, that's why I hired you, I'm gonna do this and we're gonna celebrate at the end. And we've seen it, we've seen so much happen in such a short amount of time with that kind of mindset.   I totally, I totally agree with you. think this is, I hope this is really, really valuable to even people who are showing up as amazing leaders. It's still very easy to get caught in the trap of ego filled. I have to. And I've seen incredible leaders be the ones that, that ego, it sneaks in there. It has to be there on some level. Always our ego has to be there. You can't totally get rid of it. It's, it's a good.   but it needs a balance. And sometimes that ego, when we're busy, starts to creep up and starts to get louder. And we start to get to the point where we think, this is all on me. I have to do it. No, Tiff, you don't understand. I have to be here till seven. And Kristy, I think that's the space where you're able to come in as a consultant and really say, but do you really have to? Is there not a way out? Let's explore that together.   you do that by asking those questions. And Kristy, I've watched you do it and I think it's incredible.   DAT Kristy (22:33) Thanks. Yeah, I'm hearing you say delegation and honestly, know, again, flipping it, we have to take ourselves out of the equation. I think, again, we see it every day. We're in our own way. And so when we approach something and take ourselves out of the equation, just even with the delegation part of it, when you are able to flip that, then you can see by not delegating,   you're hindering your team's growth. And that's a different perspective than my team won't rise up to the occasion, right? I'm part of that equation. So yeah, I love it.   The Dental A Team (23:14) Yeah, amazing. Amazing. And you pulled out a great word and action item there. think delegation is key. So I think a couple of takeaways are action items that you guys have. giving you, I'm gifting you those today is number one is to really, think Kristy, you said like, look at your why. Why are you doing this? And then where are you out of balance that is making you feel like you have no work life balance? So what is, what does the terminology actually mean to you? What is your why? How can you get there?   when you get to these points and you need help, please reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com You can reach us on our website. You can reach us with a review below, like however you need to find us and get to us, Instagram, Facebook, I don't care, reach out. We're here to help you through it. So go figure out what's your why. If you know your why, figure out how are you out of balance on getting there. And then Kristy, I think your word delegation, like find something, even if it's one thing today that is on your plate that you can successfully delegate to someone else.   And as an example, I was on a marketing call with an office manager with an outside marketing company. This is first time I've ever met them. she was great. The gal was great. And she said, no one's responding to your social media interactions, right? There's no engagement responses. So we've got TikTok and a massive amount of great social media following, but there's no responses happening. And she's like, we don't have to figure it out today, but I'm just.   I'm letting you know and the manager was just like, okay, I'll figure it out. I'll get on it. And I looked at the manager and I said, well, your new patient advocate who's only seeing new patients, who's not getting enough new patients in her, we're not seeing enough new patients. That's one of our issues. Why doesn't she do it? Like her job is to ensure that start to finish, new patients get the experience. This is the very baby start is engagement. And she sat back, you could see she relaxed and she was just like,   my God, you're right. And so my point of that story is sometimes it's something so simple. And I said, you're investing in her and you're telling her that she is worthy and value valuable enough to take a task like this on. That's really cool. And I think it's going to inspire her, encourage her and give her just so much strength in her position. You're actually helping her be better.   by giving her a task that was going to, you were gonna resent, you were gonna hate that task. So my point of that story, doctors, leaders, team members, look at your balance and say, what's keeping me out of balance? And is there something as simple as social media engagement, whatever it is, that I can pass on to someone that it makes more sense for them to do it? And it may make them feel better about their job. Go do those things. What's your why? What's keeping you from getting there? What's got you out of balance?   And what's one thing you can delegate to someone else to help inspire them in their career? Kristy, this was super fun. Thank you so much for taking the rides with me. And just you have incredible input. And I really appreciate you, Kristy. Thank you.   DAT Kristy (26:22) Thank you and just a little tip for somebody if they want to go do some research go look at the Eisenhower Matrix and Start to put your things in there. You'll see very clearly What can be delegated and ⁓ even things that maybe you thought were important that no longer will be important So little tip there for the end ⁓   The Dental A Team (26:43) That was great. Thank you, Kristy. All right,   guys, you heard it straight from us. Go do the things. If you've been here for a long time, you know doing the things is worth it. If you're just here, trust and you will reap rewards. I promise you. So as always, you guys, we are here to help on your journey wherever you're at. Please reach out. I've told you a million times how to get there. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You can go to our website, TheDentalATeam.com. There are ways that you can schedule calls with us. There are ways that you can reach out to us by   Text you guys Instagram Facebook email review below five stars are fantastic and I appreciate them However, you can get to us. I don't know a smoke signal like just reach out to us We are here to help you and we want to be that support for you Hello at the only team calm you guys we will catch you next time. Thanks for sticking it out with us  

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 In this episode, Ashley shares her powerful story of overcoming domestic abuse. Ashley recounts her tumultuous marriage marked by emotional and psychological abuse, her journey through a traumatic childbirth experience, and her eventual separation. She discusses the impact of her childhood abuse, her struggle with self-doubt, and the challenges of single motherhood with special needs children. Ashley also shares how her faith and community support played vital roles in her healing journey. The episode concludes with Ashley's advice for others in abusive situations to prioritize self-care and seek supportive communities. 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast 00:34 Meet Ashley: A Survivor's Story 01:38 Ashley's Background and Journey 04:19 Challenges of Parenting Special Needs Children 05:12 Coping During the Pandemic 06:55 Ashley's Upbringing and Faith Journey 14:21 Meeting Her Husband and Early Red Flags 16:15 The Birth of Ashley's Children 21:34 Experiencing Abuse and Control 23:26 Realizing the Extent of Abuse 24:15 Deciding to Leave 25:42 The Second Separation 32:05 Ongoing Abuse During Divorce 35:02 Healing and Support 38:56 Faith and Moving Forward 41:53 Closing Thoughts and Encouragement   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Ashley Transcript [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. So today on the wounds of the Faithful podcast, we have a survivor story today. So please welcome Ashley to the show. Thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing a bit of yourself with us. Hi. You're welcome. I'm glad to be here. I haven't seen you since the girls. We went over to Starbucks for an outing and we had that incident with the spider. Yes, I know. Multiple spiders crawling around the table and on you. Oh, well I thought that Kelly had killed the one on the ground and then we found out there was another [00:02:00] one and it was on my shoulder and you wanna see me freak out? Okay, that's how you get me to freak out is a spider. So here we are trying to kill the spider. But we had a good time. It was fun. Just fun to get out. It was a hot day. We were out there roasting in the heat, but it was just fun to get out and, have some girl time. Right? Yes, definitely. We needed it. So, let's, get to know you a little better. So give us a little introduction about yourself. What general part of the country are you from, and are you married? How many kids you got, what do you do for a living? That kind of stuff. Okay. Well my name is Ashley, and I live in Arizona. I've been here for five years now. I was living in North Carolina with my husband and our family for, we were on the East coast for about, oh gosh, probably about eight years or so. And, living in, in North Carolina, Virginia, and [00:03:00] that area. So I met Diana through Mending the Soul. I joined because I have been separated from my husband for, about a year now. We've been separated twice and that was due to abuse that was going on in the marriage. So I have a history of abuse in my life, starting from when I was little. There was abuse that happened outside of the home, with. People that were slightly older than me. And that was more of like a, sexual abuse or molestation kind of situation. And then getting married, I thought it was a good relationship. I thought we were a good team. And we, I think it, it was okay for a while until we had children and that's when things started. Unraveling and a lot of patterns started popping up all over the place of, all kinds of a abuse that, not physical, but it was [00:04:00] emotional, mental, psychological, spiritual abuse, all of those. And I'm still kind of working through and wrestling with the effects that that had on me. And it's still, I mean, I have good days and I have really, really hard days. So it's kind of, it's still, even though it's been a year of being apart, it's still all over the place. Mm-hmm. Um, but I do feel like I'm making progress and, many, the soul did help with that along with counseling. So that's where I'm at right now and I'm currently going to school to get, to become a speech language pathology assistant. And, I have about just one semester left of that. And then I know I'm so excited to, hopefully get to work with kids that are, you know, having difficulties for whatever reason. And I am a special needs mom. My, middle child has autism and. So that's been a journey. And then my youngest also has struggles in certain areas of learning. So, yeah, this [00:05:00] will help me also, while being able to help other people. So that's where I'm at right now. So your special needs kids, what kind of challenges does that bring as a single mom and going through abuse? Mm. Oh gosh. I hadn't really thought of it in that context before, but it's a lot because you're, as a parent, you're trying to focus on their needs and trying to meet them where they're at, but at the same time, you're trying to meet yourself where you're at. So it's constantly trying to think of everyone's needs and trying to meet everyone where they are, including myself. So it is, it's a lot to think through. Every day. Yeah, but I love 'em and I mean, it's amazing to see their growth and, yeah. But it is definitely a struggle. So your kids free today, get a break, but how have you been coping during the pandemic with your kids? [00:06:00] What have you found that works? Yeah, so thankfully I've been talking to family about this also, our schedule. Because of Kim, his running his elopement, we have a hard time going to a lot of places already. So even before the pandemic, we didn't go to a lot of stores or we mostly spent our time outside and at home. So that really, I think, helped set us up for this situation because it wasn't a huge jump, you know, from being out around people all the time to nothing. So we were already kind of ready in some ways. So it's a lot of time outside as much as we can. The kids love roller skating. They love swimming. They love, yeah, just being outside doing anything they can. So that, and then, even doing games inside the house together is fun, like pillow fights or box, like my youngest likes to, like, he's practicing boxing and he loves to, [00:07:00] like I put on the oven MITs, and then he has his little boxing gloves, which is so cute. It's, it's fun. And, just trying to get their energy out. And then I work out also, so we're trying to like get all that energy from all of us. So it's, that's been good. Well, it's pretty funny. When we've had group, you know, the kids are there, three boys, like climbing all over her and poking her and mom, mom, mom. And she's trying to focus on, her part in the group, and, you just do the best you can, right? Yep. Exactly. That's, I think it's learning to just roll with it, so it's like, yeah, and like the pandemic continues to teach us that I think is, we just have to be able to roll with it as it comes. Wow. Oh, so tell us a little bit more about your upbringing. Were you raised in a Christian home? Not with my mom and my stepdad, who I lived with later, but my grandparents, who I lived with when I was little, they took me to the Nazarene Church and I was a part of that [00:08:00] community, so I was a part of a church. I don't particularly remember learning about Jesus or, salvation in particular. I just remember just in general learning about. God in general. And so that's kind of how I was raised. And then when I moved in with my mom and my stepdad, they're not a part of any faith community. So I would go either with friends to church, and then when I was older I would just go by myself, drove, I drove myself there. And and that's kind of how it started. What kind of relationship would you say you had with God? Was it personal? Was it God was distant or? Uh, I think when I was very little, I didn't feel like I had a relationship really, but always as I got older, I remember always feeling like he was there. I remember always feeling like I didn't quite understand how I knew that, but he just, I just felt like he was there with me. And then as I [00:09:00] continued. Learning more and especially after Ava, or sorry, especially after my daughter was born, I really realized the connection with Jesus and got, had my relationship with God through him. And so that's when it really became very personal. So like in the last 10 years, more so. Do you remember when you actually made that decision? Was there a day? Yeah, I don't remember the date, but, we had started having struggles in our marriage pretty soon after Ava was born and I was feeling so confused and so lost and like I needed to be doing more. And so I was going through the Love Dare book and in there it was really a really good book for that moment. And it lays out. Scripture each day. And at the end, it gives you an opportunity to accept Jesus. And I remember being so blown away during that book because no one had ever explained to me the importance of Jesus [00:10:00] and what he did for me. And so when I was like, why have I not heard this? Like, oh my gosh. And yeah. And so at the end I remember just sitting at the table crying, crying, like I could not stop crying. And it was like something inside of me just clicked and, yeah, so I said the prayer and, every, a lot of things changed after that and continued to change. Wow. That's, I've never heard a story like that. You know, I had The Love Dare book, actually, the guy I was dating. Mm-hmm. That was abusive to me, gave me that book, and it was really strange. He tried to get me to go back to my ex-husband, who was my one abuser, and, it was an excellent book, but at that time. There wasn't going to be any parting of the Red Sea Miracle with my ex-husband. I kept telling this guy, we're already divorced. It's over. Yes, I'm moving on. Yes. But it's amazing that you found Jesus through that book. I praise the [00:11:00] Lord for that. I know, and that's the, I think it's interesting because I started reading that book to help with the marriage. And it did somewhat, but I think the most, it was cool because God met me where I was doing what I was doing, you know? And it didn't matter why I started it. Yeah. It's just so cool. Amazing. So what were your teenage years like? Did you have a lot of self-confidence growing up? Oh gosh. I would say no. I mean, middle school was really hard for me. I had a lot of rejection and embarrassing things happen, and they kind of linked with the abuse. That happened when I was younger. And so that kind of, I spiraled quite a bit there and I just, I think, decided that I wanted to protect myself. And so I decided, okay, I'm gonna get straight A's in school. I'm gonna run track and I'm gonna do [00:12:00] the best I can with that and I'm not gonna get in trouble. And I just made all these like promises to myself, I think, to protect myself. So I think I appeared on the outside probably like I had. I a lot of confidence, but it really was protection and so I don't feel like it was confidence at all. It was all rooted in fear and trying to protect myself. So, no, I don't think I did. Mm. Now how did your grandparents play a part in your life? They were very significant. Mm-hmm. And they, yeah, they still, they're a huge part still. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to put into words everything that they've done, but they gave me a safe place. They've always been a safe place for me. And no matter what they, I have never felt abandoned by them. I've never felt judged by them. I've never felt, like they didn't try to understand me so they've always, they've been a consistent, safe place. Throughout my whole life. And [00:13:00] so even in those hard times, I, I did always know they were there. And, I would call my grandma instead of talking to my mom or anyone else, I would always call my grandma and talk to her. And she kind of helped me work through in college when I finally, I think I was hitting another breaking point in college when I was drinking a lot and really depressed. Honestly, I was running track at a college and. Trying to perform still, but then partying also. And there were these two parts of me that were like colliding and it was so painful and I didn't know how to get out of this situation. And so she helped me a lot through that also. And then later with my realizing the abuse with Dan, with my husband, and deciding to make changes there, she helped me a lot through that Also. Hmm. So yeah, her support has meant the world. I didn't really grow up with traditional grandparents. I didn't, my grandfathers died long before I was even cognitive, [00:14:00] and my dad's mother died when I was seven. And then my mother's mother, we didn't have a very close relationship because she was a very abusive person, and my mother mm-hmm. Didn't, my mother didn't want us around her and she really was a, nasty person. But, so I didn't really grow up with grandparents. I think that's why I was always friends with a lot of senior citizens. Were my good friends because I didn't have grandparents. I had, teachers and coaches and, the next door neighbor. Mm-hmm. I kind of clung too. So it was a blessing that you had have grandparents to be there for you and guide you through these tough times? Yes. Yeah. It's, it is. I mean, thinking about if I didn't have them, it's been hard enough. Even having that support. So I can't imagine not having that support. It's been, it literally feels like a gift. That God has put there to help me [00:15:00] get through all of this. And, yeah. So I'm just really thankful. So we're gonna transition to the unsavory part of the podcast. When did you meet your husband and were there any warning signs, that there was going to be abuse? So we met, we were both attending Arizona State University and we met there. We were part of a co-ed business fraternity. And, we met at a party and we, I mean, I felt like right away that I wanted to be with this person, even though I didn't know him. As I was telling you before, like I was in a really unhealthy place. All through college. It's because I, everything from my childhood hadn't been addressed and was still, all that pain was under the surface. And I think I was just trying to cover it up any way I could by drinking, sleeping with people. And, that's kind of where our relationship started. That's how it started in that [00:16:00] kind of context and. So we were both in a really unhealthy place. I think his, parents had just started the divorce process, I think when I met him. And he had a lot of pain from his childhood too. And so I think we both were just trying to cover up the pain. And so in the beginning I couldn't see any red flags because we were very similar, I think, in how we were. Covering up things and living life. And so it wasn't until really, until we had kids, because my attention was divided between him and the kids and my, and needing to take care of myself once my attention was divided, that's when all of the. The pattern started bubbling up, so I couldn't see it until quite a bit later. Mm. Wow. So when your children came along, you had a pretty dark time for you. Did you wanna share [00:17:00] about the, birth of your children? Yeah, I can. So my daughter's birth. Was overall good. We had to have a c-section because she was, she was not head down. She was bottom down and she did not wanna flip, which is totally, it's funny 'cause she's very, like kind of stubborn in her own way. And so it's funny that she just was like, Nope. Like, I'm good right here. I'm not moving. And so yeah, the C-section went well and, but. I remember I felt so sad in the hospital. I was so happy to see her, but at the same time, I think seeing her face and seeing how vulnerable she was as a baby, I think triggered everything in me at a whole new level from what happened when I was younger. So that's how her birth was difficult. And then, or my second child's birth. Was a slightly difficult Also, I was trying to have a [00:18:00] VBAC and the cord was wrapped around his, around his neck and his heart rate was dropping and so we had to go in for an emergency C-section. That one, went pretty well too. Overall, given the circumstances and everything. So it wasn't until a lot, our third child's birth. That was really, really difficult. And during that I was trying for another vbac, which looking back I wish I had not done that. But I was trying because I felt like that's, I really wanted that experience. And so I was trying and I found a doctor that would support me in doing that. And, um. It was, the birth was taking too long. I was kind of stalled in labor and they, I had an epidural and. I couldn't feel very much, but at one point I felt a pop. And this was as they were planning to get me into the [00:19:00] emerge, into the room to deliver, to via C-section. They were already planning it. We were just trying to get in there once it was open and available. Mm-hmm. And I felt this pop as they were planning this. And, I didn't know to say anything because I didn't. No, anything was wrong. I couldn't feel any pain. And we get into the emergency room, no, still no one knows anything has happened. And he's allowed to be awake and okay. And so I'm still awake and they find the, the rupture in my uterus. And I lost about probably half my blood and, and so that was very, very traumatic in and of itself. Getting out of the hospital was difficult because my blood still didn't look quite right to them. My blood work and everything, they weren't happy with it. And so, but I went home. And decided not to get a blood transfusion. Just because I didn't feel comfortable with it. [00:20:00] I ended up developing a hematoma and an infection, and had to go back in the hospital and was on antibiotics. I think it was about a week I was in there and. So when I came home, I was experiencing PTSD symptoms, but didn't understand that's what it was. Mm-hmm. I literally thought I was going to die all the time. I thought I was every minute of the day. Mm-hmm. I was checking to see what was happening in my body. Because I thought I was going to die for sure. And so I kept wanting to go to the hospital because I felt like what if I'm, I missed the infection before, I didn't know I had this infection. No one was telling me that I looked sick, you know? And I could have died from that infection. And, so yeah, I kept wanting to go to the hospital to see a doctor, just to make sure I was okay. And. I didn't understand what was happening to me, but at the time [00:21:00] he would tell me I didn't need to go to the doctor, you know, and yell at me that I, nothing was wrong with me, that I was fine telling me I didn't need to go to the doctor, making me feel bad about it. I was struggling to take care of the kids, because I was going through all this and not understanding what was happening. So this is where I really, really started to know that something was wrong, in the marriage because of how he handled this situation. So. Yeah, this is his children that he's talking about Most, you know, normal people. If you're, if you're suffering and it involves your kids or your spouse, you're gonna take them to the hospital. That's, that isn't normal. No. Even when I had the infection in my fever. I had started at home and I was shaking like I was, I couldn't stop. Like I would [00:22:00] shake out of the blue. My body would just, that's how far the infection had progressed. And he still was kind of telling me that I didn't need to go. But thankfully my doctor was like, you can come in tonight if you think you need to. And I was like, yes, I need to. Yes. When can I be over there like yesterday? Yes. So was that the first time that you've experienced abuse by him or were there other stuff on top of the post pregnancy and delivery stuff? There was, I mean, there was stuff here and there definitely like control over money, like making me feel bad about buying groceries like that. I spent too much, when I just, I mean I am very frugal. Like I love finding deals. I love all that. I mean, I am into that. I always have been. I am very particular about what I buy and mm-hmm. And I still, no matter how hard I tried to do a good [00:23:00] job, I would come home and it would not be good enough and it would be that I spent too much money. And so, yeah, it's definitely control stuff. I saw I was happening before, but I kind of took it on as this is something I'm doing wrong. And so it wasn't until the medical stuff happened that I realized. That I started to realize a little bit that maybe it was something else. Yeah. You're not the only one that had that. Mm-hmm. Had that problem with the spending money. I was in charge of getting groceries and buying all the Christmas gifts for his family, and it was always the same thing. You spent too much money and mm-hmm. And you bought too many groceries, like, well, why don't you try and get a full, week budget on a hundred bucks and see how good you do. Exactly. Or you buy all the presents for your family and see how well you do on the budget you gave me. [00:24:00] Yeah. The control, the verbal and emotional abuse. Mm-hmm. It's not just physical folks. Your abuser can make your life a living hell without laying a finger on you. Yes, and I think that's what I'm realizing now is I still have physical, issues related to the abuse that happened when Elijah was born. I have heart palpitations that I believe. Come from a mixture of what happened to me physically, but also what happened to me emotionally, that I felt so abandoned and so, confused during that time because of what was being told to me by, by my husband and. Yeah, and just realizing the extent that the damage goes, it's very different than, I mean, physical abuse and emotional abuse have some similarities, but Yeah. The, depths doesn't change just because we can't see it [00:25:00] on the outside. Exactly. Mm-hmm. When did you decide, enough is enough? I need to get out now. Was there a specific day or an event? Well, there were two, I mean two, it happened twice. So it happened in North Carolina. He was continuing to escalate as far as like telling me he was suicidal, which I believe he is. But he seems to, he uses it in certain ways to get me to stop doing things that he doesn't want me to be doing, like spending time by myself outside of the house or spending time with friends. Um. You know, not being able to have intimacy and things like that. So he uses that as a way to get me to stop. And so that was escalating also. He had started using intimidation, punching walls in the house, that kind of thing. So, and the friend had [00:26:00] just, I had never, no one had ever told me that what was happening was abuse. And I didn't know. I honestly did not know. And someone had just. That who had come from an abusive marriage had pointed out to me that I had told her what was happening at home. And she was like, that is abuse. And I was like, what? Are you serious? Mm-hmm. Like I was in shock that I didn't know that. And I think that was just a wake up call for me. When I have confronted it, he pushed back right against it and wanted me to come back home. He and, I, the kids and I had moved to a different house and, we're trying to figure out what to do and that's when I decided to move closer to my family. And so that was the first time we got back together about nine months after we separated. 'cause I just, I think I. I was struggling physically to [00:27:00] handle everything on my own, plus dealing with my mental health. And it was really hard. And I think I was struggling with how am I going to do this? And I missed having someone to share life with. I missed. And I thought, what if I'm wrong? What if I am, what if I'm wrong? And I'm just as messed up as he is? And, um, which I do have my stuff, but it's different. It's not the same. And so we got back together and then about, I think it was about three years after we got back together, all the same patterns had come back up. Mm-hmm. And it had started transferring over to things happening with the kids that as far as control and just emotionally abusive language towards them. And when I started seeing how it was affecting the kids, that's when I decided. No, I cannot let this continue. Because seeing that affect them, how it could affect them [00:28:00] being exposed to that long term, I can't handle that. So I think the kids have really, really helped me to do things for them and for myself that maybe I wouldn't, it would've taken me longer to do it if it was just for me, I think. So yeah, that's kind of how that happened. Yeah, I didn't have children early in the relationship. My ex didn't want kids right away, but then we were married about five to seven year mark then all of a sudden he decided he wanted to have children. And by that time, I already knew I was trapped in a marriage that was abusive and I did not wanna bring children into this world and subject them to that. Because like you say, it's fun if it's just me, but now I have kids that I am in charge of and you know, it's going to affect them. So I just made the decision and I told him, I'm not having children. Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] Sorry, I already have to deal with everything in the marriage that I didn't have. I wouldn't have had any, anything left. But, you made a lot of big points in that you didn't know that you were abused. And I was the same way. I was abused for 13 years and I used to call up my, one of my closest friends, and I used to cry every time. You know, this man would do something horrible and I would cry, and what am I gonna do? And mm-hmm. And one day, you know, she tells me. I'm tired of you calling me up and telling me all your stories. Every time this man does something to you and you need to get out of there. He's an abusive man and I'm like, but the church won't let me get a divorce. And she said, God is not going to not love you anymore [00:30:00] because you've made the choice to divorce this abusive man. That was the day that I, I woke up and I'm like, this is abuse. Mm-hmm. All this time, that's what this was. Mm-hmm. And I made the choice then and there, I need to make plans to get out. Mm-hmm. So , when you decided to leave the second time, what were the steps that you took to get out? I. Hmm. Let's see. So what was that? Was it similar to the first time or was it different? It was a little bit different. I'm trying to think through it. I was more on my own this time. I didn't like, I didn't have someone, I wasn't seeing a counselor at the time. I wasn't really a part of a group. I think I was the most isolated probably that I have been. [00:31:00] And so I really, I just, I think I talked to my grandma and just telling her what was happening. I also listened to some resources from Leslie Vernick and there was one in particular, I can't even remember what it was called, but it was about. Oh gosh, I can't remember specifically, but it was how a man was treating his wife in the Bible. And I think it was the Levite, maybe the story of the Levite. And when I saw their, just the implications of abuse and the effects and the seriousness of it, and that's not what God wants for me. I think once I saw that. I, that's when it really clicked. And I was also getting solo physically that I knew I had to do something. My body was starting to react, to all of the stress and [00:32:00] abuse. Heart palpitations, just constantly tense, feeling like something's going to happen. And so I think all of those things and seeing the effect on our kids, that's when I decided just to. Let him know that I'm not okay with it. And I'm trying to remember even we had a conversation and I let him know, I think we need to be separated. And at the time he agreed with me that we need to be separated, but he wanted us to stay in relationship still, even though we were separated. But I knew in my head that I was done. But it was good be that because that kind of started the process even though he thought that. You know, in his head he thought we would work it out eventually, I think it started the process and we lived in separate places. And then it just has continued from there with filing divorce. Hmm. So you're still in the middle of the divorce proceedings now, right? Yes. Mm-hmm. What's your [00:33:00] interactions been with him, through this proceedings? It's been. Just on and off communication. He, that's with him. He's not outrightly like, glaringly abusive, especially in text messages. That's never been how he is really, it's more covert. So the communication part, except for about a year ago, we had a situation where he wouldn't leave the house and, that's when I stopped being able to let him be here with the kids. But besides that, the communication has been minimal, thankfully. It's more been through money that the abuse has continued. And also through the legal proceedings, what he's asking for legally feels like abuse also. So yeah, he was like canceling credit cards and stuff on you. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's those like subtle, [00:34:00] under the radar where people won't notice really that the abuse is still happening. Yeah. So you look like the bad guy 'cause you're leaving mm-hmm. Your husband, but he's like, trying to sell the house out from under you and the kids and cutting your credit cards. And it's like, how are you gonna feed the children? Where are they gonna sleep? I mean, these are your children. It's insane. Yeah. Your spouse makes you look like. Or makes you feel like you've lost your mind. Or like you said in the first time you left, well, maybe he's not that bad. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe it's not him, it's me. No, that's what they do. That's what they do, is they make you question your sanity and the reality of the situation. Mm. And that's still, that is the hardest part for me, especially right now with thinking about having to share my story with the court, with [00:35:00] people maybe who side with Dan. And having him there in front of me as I share what has happened. I'm really struggling even right now with, yeah. Do I know what's real? Can I, can I hold on to that? And. Not get confused. Mm-hmm. So that's how the effects of psychological abuse go so deep. Like even if you know the truth, it can create this pattern in your brain where you start questioning yourself, questioning what you know. And you and I tend to go back to. Seeing it as my fault. So I really have to push back against that and be around people who help me remember the truth and keep telling my, reminding myself of what's happened and this is real. This is not something that I'm making up. So how did you start the healing process? Us? Oh gosh. I mean, I think it's been a constant process of trying to put [00:36:00] myself around people. Like I said, who will tell me the truth and, um, about myself and about the situation and how God sees me. So I went back to counseling. Recently after Mending Arm mending the Soul Group ended. I realized I needed to be around people still, and I needed people to speak that truth. So I went back to counseling and that's helped a lot. Still listening to, voices that remind me. Of how toxic that kind of situation is, and that I don't need to stay in that environment. And also it's just, I think a process of acknowledging how much all of it hurt, acknowledging the damage that was done, and just the reality, letting myself accept the reality of the situation. While also taking care of myself, like mentally, physically, and all of that. So it's definitely, it feels like a full-time, full-time job sometimes just, trying to keep myself going in the right [00:37:00] direction. But I'm definitely, I feel like I'm learning about what I need and, trying to meet those needs the best I can. Would you recommend manning this all to others? What was your experience with the group? Definitely, yes, I would recommend it. Yeah, that was a first for me, being around other women who have been through abuse, and I think that alone is huge. Just being able to hear other people's stories and realizing that the patterns are the same, even though the situations are so different and the effects can be very similar too. And, and also the steps to healing and processing what happened are so good. So it's just that combination of community with people who have been through it, and also the path to working through the, what happened to you. Well, I'm glad that it was so helpful to you. I've definitely seen some changes in you from the beginning when you joined the [00:38:00] group and now. So that, I hope that's an encouragement to you. You seem so more confident and you recognize those red flags. You understand now what he's doing to you when he's talking to you. He is gaslighting you. He is narcissistic. He is being manipulative. You're recognizing those things, whereas you might not have seen those things before. Mm-hmm. And, talking to our listeners that are going through abuse right now, or maybe they just left their abuser, what advice would you give to someone else who's being abused right now? Hmm. I think that, I would say to take care of yourself, and to think about what you really need. That it is not wrong to think about. What you need and where you are at. I feel like a lot of times, especially in [00:39:00] Christian communities, we take on this idea that I think thinking about ourselves and what we need is selfish or wrong, and I feel like that kind of, that mentality set me up to stay in that situation a lot longer, than I probably should have. So yeah, just considering what you really need, and. Getting people around you that will help you decide what steps you need to take, to get into a better position, a better situation where you can have healing, and, and just to yeah, feel better. So I would say, yeah, take care of yourself and get people around you that can support you and help you make a plan. Very good advice. What would you say your relationship with God is like now that you've gone through some of your healing process? Hmm. It's definitely, it's good, but I do, I still [00:40:00] struggle with, Not putting the characteristics. And protecting myself from God, I guess I have a hard time, like not distancing myself, and so it's always reminding myself that he is safe, that he cares about me, that he's leading me through this, and that I can trust him. So it is really good, but it is a constant, a, a journey also reminding myself of the truth over and over so that I can keep coming back to him and not hiding. Oh, that's, that is so true. It is a journey and it's messy Sometimes it's, but God understands he's there and he's gonna be patient and waiting for you while you're still figuring things out and, mm-hmm. Awesome. So like we have a music segment at the end of the episode. I don't suppose you're sing or play an instrument or juggle or anything like that. No. I play the, but I [00:41:00] don't have it. Oh, how about a joke? You got any jokes, kid jokes, cheesy jokes? No. Don't have any jokes? No. Oh, well, no. How about, I know that you have one of these. How about what's a Christian song that really encourages you and that you just go to it whenever you're having a bad day. Oh my gosh. I think I mentioned this one during the group actually. Mm-hmm. I can't remember the title of it, but it's, it's the one, like, he's greater than All My Mistakes. Gosh, I wish I can remember who, oh, I can't remember the name of the band. But anyway, it's something about, greater than all my mistakes, and if you type that in, it should come up. But it's amazing and it just talks about how, it's just such a peaceful song to me and just realizing that he really is, he's greater than all my mistakes. The mistake that I made of being in a relationship with someone that's abusive. Mm-hmm. [00:42:00] Any mistakes I make with the kids, mistakes I make with putting characteristics on God that aren't him, anything that I do, nothing is big enough that is going to change his relationship with me. And that he's always there, waiting for me to, turn and look at him. So, yeah, I love that song. I'll definitely put that in the show notes for people to look that up. 'cause I did listen to it when you mentioned it the first time and it is an awesome song. Yes. But I so appreciate you coming onto the show and sharing your journey with us. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. So I hope you really enjoyed Ashley's story today. She had a lot of great nuggets to share with you, and I've heard her story before, of course, in a lot more detail, a lot more gory detail, but you can tell that she is an awesome lady, an [00:43:00] awesome mother who's gone through so much, so many challenges. Yet, the Lord has really blessed her life, blessed her kids. How did you feel about what Ashley said? Can you relate to any of the struggles that she's had that she's continuing to go through? You have a prayer request that you'd like me to bring before the Lord. I have my personal time with the Lord usually at breakfast time, so I'd be honored to pray for you. So until next week. Choose one thing, just once, small thing today to get you closer to your healing goals. Thank you and God bless. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you. Please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find [00:44:00] our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.    

Dr. Len Tau, aka the Reviews Doctor, is on the podcast. With Kiera, he goes into the most critical nuts and bolts of making sure your practice stands out (or at least keeps pace with) online reviews amid AI. He explains jargon terms like ranking power and factors and velocity of reviews, whether or not you should actually be responding to reviews of your practice, and a ton more. Visit SuperchargeYourDentalPractice.com and enter the code RAVING to save $100 on registration for Dr. Tau's annual conference. About Dr. Tau Dr. Len Tau thrives on helping practices maximize their online reputation, marketing, and social media strategies. As a speaker, Len is known for his lively and engaging presentations packed with ready-to-use strategies. He regularly travels the country sharing his marketing brilliance and passion for practice growth with audiences. As a consultant, he offers practice leaders with real-world solutions tailored to fit their specific challenges and opportunities. Len loves to help doctors and their teams understand and implement successful online systems to build their practice. He currently serves as general manager of the Dental for Birdeye Reputation Marketing Software. Selected as one of Philadelphia's Top Dentists by Philadelphia Magazine, he continues to experience growth year after year in his fee-for-service practice focusing on general, cosmetic, reconstructive and implant dentistry. Following his father into the dental profession, Len graduated from Tufts University School of Dental Medicine and continues to pursue ongoing continuing education opportunities. He has had the privilege of serving patients for two decades. He is an active member of numerous professional organizations including the American Dental Association, the Pennsylvania Dental Association, the Academy of General Dentistry, the Eastern Dental Society, the Northeast Philadelphia Dental Implant Study Club, and the American Academy of Clear Aligners. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental Team listeners. This is Kiera and today I am so excited. This is one of my dear friends. We've known each other for several years in the industry. I'm super freaking pumped. I'm going actually be at his event next year in September. Little teaser. Stay tuned. He's got an amazing event he does every year in September. I have Dr. Len Tau. He is one of my faves. He is better known ⁓ as an authority in the dental consulting world, reputation marketing, and a practice growth. He's recognized by dentistry today as a top dental consultant for eight straight years.   He is the author of Raving Patients and 100 plus tips to 105 star reviews in a hundred days. Like this man knows how to do it. He's one of my faves. We really do collaborate on so many fun things. After 20 plus years in clinical practice, he now helps dentists nationwide, increase revenue, case acceptance and visibility. He leads the dental vision at BirdEye, hosts the Raving Patients podcast and runs the Supercharger Dental Practice Conference, which is the one I was alluding to that we're gonna be at next year in September, empowering practices to thrive in today's competitive landscape.   He's truly one of my faves. And today we're gonna dig into like, how do you get online reviews? But Len, welcome. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. How are you today?   Dr. Len Tau (01:06) I'm good, thanks for having me, I'm excited to be here.   Kiera Dent (01:08) Of course. And this just came about because Len like, let's just do a little teaser. You're prepping full like steam ahead right now for your event that's coming up in September in Florida. ⁓ I love like the last time you and I were on the podcast, we talked about you in clinical dentistry. And then we reconnected after some time and you've left the chair, you're living your best life and you full blown gone into the event space. So just like, I know we're gonna get into like online reviews and how AI is changing that it's going to be just a really, really fun episode today. But tell us a little bit like   How is it going from like full blown dentist in the chair to now full blown events, like running these awesome events that we're super excited to be a part. Just kind of give me a little insight to that.   Dr. Len Tau (01:46) Well, it's been, it's been a lot of, a lot of fun. It's been very different, obviously, you know, for 23 years, I practiced dentistry, um, for about 12 of those, 13 of those who was full time. And then I went part time in 2017 until I sold and retired in 2022. Um, but one of the things I've grew up on in dentistry was going to dental events and, the big, the ones, the small ones, you know, all over the country and as a dentist first, and then as a vendor.   Kiera Dent (02:08) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (02:15) Um, since 2013 or 14, so a long time in the space. know, one of the things that really hit me was that the events are not really put on very well. They're not, um, you know, whether you, if you're a dentist, there's issues when you're a vendor, there's issues. And I said, you know what? I want to change the game. And, um, one of my goals when I retired from dentistry was to start putting on events. So in 2023, um, in, in September, we did an event in Delray had 208.   Kiera Dent (02:25) Right.   Dr. Len Tau (02:44) Dennis there, 33 sponsors. was, first day was business, second day was marketing. Excuse me. First day was marketing. Second day was business. Had a 13, 14 speakers. It went off better than I could ever imagined. I then moved to the last year in 2024 to Scottsdale. And we were at the Scott Resort and Spa, which is a beautiful hotel and the event was good. It wasn't great. Definitely moving to different coasts.   I felt there was not as much, know, engagement, excitement about the event. So I, my family and my wife and I decided, Hey, we're going to do this. Let's have people come down to me. I live in beautiful, you know, part of Florida. we're having this year's event and the next three of them at super at, ⁓ at pure 66, a brand new hotel, ⁓ in Fort Lauderdale. It's literally half hour from my house, five miles from the airport, easy to get to. So this year event is September 26th and 27th.   Kiera Dent (03:32) Bye.   you   No.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (03:45) We've got 14 speakers, ⁓ mixture of business and marketing. So we've got people talking about social media, about content. We have people talking about saving money on taxes. We're talking about how to become a fee-for-service practice. ⁓ So a lot of different great content and top speakers, Steve Rasner, Paul Goodman, ⁓ Jeff Buski, ⁓ Richard, Rich Maddow. So some real, real heavy hitters. And then some people who people haven't really heard of, Melanie Diesel, who's new in the dental industry.   So, but I like to do it differently and my events are very high end. You come, you're going to see things you probably have never seen before. I give a ton of time to the vendors so the vendors love me because they make sure that they get integration or interaction with the attendees. So you're going to be speaking in 2026, same weekend at September 25th and 26th in 2026, same hotel, pure 66.   Kiera Dent (04:28) Sure.   Yeah.   Dr. Len Tau (04:40) We're ramping things up right now. We're literally a month out from the events. still have people signing up. I still have people wanting to reach out as sponsors. And it's, it's, it's, is the fun time for me. Cause when I'm done, I'm, you know, I get a couple of months of break and then I start promoting 2027 again. So ⁓ it's been a good time. I really enjoy it. And I find that I've kind of ⁓ created something that's very different and the attendees really enjoy it and the vendors really enjoy it. So if I can make everybody happy,   Kiera Dent (04:45) No.   Dr. Len Tau (05:09) That's all I'm looking to do here.   Kiera Dent (05:11) ⁓ and Len, I hope the audience, if they can't see it, they can hear it. I think it's so fun because I mean, I've seen you in different spaces in your career, in your life. And there is just this like giddy, like younger version of Len that I feel is emerging of like, it's like giddy boyhood, like excitement of I'm excited to put these on. I'm excited to do these events. And it just makes me so happy for you. And what I think I'm hearing is yes, attendees are happy. Vendors are happy. But I also hear that Len is very happy and to do something   in dentistry is just very, very fun. It's very exciting. And so we're jazzed. I'm really excited. I love good events. I love great time. I love to help. love business marketing. Everybody can take that. That's not Kiera's jam. Like I, that's why I wanted to bring you on. You guys are very good at marketing. You're very good at that space. but to talk about how to help people have their best lives to grow the practices that they want to grow. I think you and I are so synergistic in that. So we're super excited and I love, I mean, I'm not going to highlight the fact that there were   a couple of sixes in that is September 26 at Pier 66. You guys hopefully like, I like the alliteration. Don't put anything weird on it guys, but I do appreciate that you made it easier. September six and nines flipped upside down are a six. Like hopefully everybody can remember September 26, Pier 66. It'll be a good time in 2026. I mean, we got four lines, so we're okay. We've at least got four sixes, not we didn't end on three, but I really hope an exciting step. We'll make sure we put some info for people.   For this year and for next year, I think it'll be a fun time. Dental A Team will be there, so come hang out with us. ⁓ Len, I'm super excited. I will not spoil secrets, but a lot of the things he told me for the events, I will say he does put his heart and soul into it. So Len, excited about that. Thank you for sharing. Good luck for this year. We're gonna be rooting you on this year and next year. And now let's pivot. Let's go into like your jam. You're in BirdEye, you're in marketing, you're on online reviews. AI has come into the scene. Practices are changing.   I also will say, I hope everybody listens to you of their like succession story. You hung up the hand piece, but you are still full steam ahead in dentistry. And so I hope people see that like there is no path to dentistry. Like you just, it's a, it's a beautiful world that you're in. So let's talk though, online reviews, AI, how is this working? How do we make sure that practices are still being visible? Chat GPT is on, on the prowl.   There are clients signing up with us now that have found us on chat. GPT, which is so random. It's changing how people have been doing things. Walk me through. What are you seeing with these online reviews? The importance, how to bring AI in? Like, let's just kind of go in a rift on how practices can still be visible with AIs. Like just showing up to the scene.   Dr. Len Tau (07:43) So I wanna talk about chat CPT for a second. ⁓ I refer to it as my best friend. ⁓ It helps me edit. No, I haven't named it yet. No, I haven't named it. ⁓ you have?   Kiera Dent (07:50) Have you named it? I've got to just ask Len. Have you named? I have! Me and Chet,   I had a name and now her name is Wanda. I don't know why, I don't even know where Wanda came, but people are like, here, are you hanging out with Wanda again? Cause I agree. Like they're our best friends. So go on Len. I can't wait to hear what you name your Chet GPT cause mine is currently Wanda.   Dr. Len Tau (08:06) I'll have to, I   have to name it now that I have to think of something. ⁓ but no, I started using it. I'm like, this is really helpful and it's only gotten better. And, just to give you an idea is, ⁓ my wife and I, and my son, my son just graduated high school. He's literally just started his freshman year at, university of Florida on a free ride. ⁓ smart, smart ass kid. I'm very proud of him. But, you know, and I travel a ton, but I travel a ton for business and I made a commitment. I think I told you that,   Kiera Dent (08:25) Boo? Yeah.   Dr. Len Tau (08:35) during the summer when he was going away for school, I was not going to travel. So from March to literally next week, beginning of September, I haven't traveled at all for business. we did plan some really great travel for our personal lives. And one of the things we did was we had a cruise, a 17 day cruise to Europe. ⁓ And when I decided I did not want to do the excursions to the cruise, cause they're really expensive and you're with all these people. I prefer to kind of just go and tour myself.   Kiera Dent (08:44) It's awesome.   Dr. Len Tau (09:05) So I use ChatGPT in every city. And I said, I'm going to the city. This is what I'm going to get in. This is the cruise I'm going on. It got the cruise itinerary. And I said, I want to set up private tours in every city with different people. And it helped me pick the best tour guides. They referred me to a website called Tours by Local, which is an amazing website that you can meet people who are local that will take you around.   show you the city and it was amazing. It was amazing. So I thank Chachi PT for doing that because I wouldn't have known about half these things if I didn't do it. And in fact, one of the women, and actually the very first place you went to, which was in Split, Croatia, which was beautiful. I told her that literally that's kind of how I went down this road was I asked Chachi PT, what should I do in Split? And they said, you need to use this tour guide. She's the highest rated tour guide and has the best reviews on tours by local. like,   What's towards by local? And that started this whole thing. So she was, she was amazed to hear that. So, ⁓ I have been using Chad GPT for a long time, like I said, and even now it is people I know type in, know, get me to the best dentists in the area. And it's very much based on reviews. So you have to be a highly rated practice. you may not believe in reviews and if you do, think you're not smart, but you know, if, if you want to be at the forefront of where people are looking,   Kiera Dent (09:58) Yeah.   Yes.   Dr. Len Tau (10:25) You have to generate reviews in a significant amount. Velocity now, which is how often you're getting them, is one of the biggest ranking factors on Google, whether you want to believe chat GPT or not. ⁓ But you have to get reviews. You can't, you know, rest on your laurels and say, well, I have enough because you never have enough. Okay. And, ⁓ and you've got to let Google rank you high. And there's been a big discrepancy in the industry, a big, I don't want to say a misunderstanding.   Kiera Dent (10:43) read.   Dr. Len Tau (10:52) But I've been in the review space now since 2013, so 12 years. And in the past, dentists thought that if they get reviews, they're going to rank. And that's not the way it is anymore. If you have reviews, but don't pay attention to the other ranking factors, you actually don't rank well. And that's a problem. So, chat GPT AI is so important, but you still got to dominate Google. You still got to get to the top of the pages.   And that's really where the direction is going. and if you aren't there now and you are ignoring it, you're never going to get there. So I would love to talk to you about our list in instruct or educate the listeners and viewers of these ranking factors that they need, need to pay attention to, or they're going to be left behind when it comes to ranking on Google.   Kiera Dent (11:27) Yeah.   absolutely. And I'm excited for this too, because, I did notice that you've got to like, AI is just crawling the web. That's where it's getting, it's being taught. It's crawls it. It looks through all of it. And so agreed with you. have a lot of clients and like, we want the secret pill of marketing. And I might get your reviews up. Like it is constant and consistent that if you get those reviews up and you bring pieces to the table, that people literally like that's what's going to rank you higher. So I'm excited, Len to, to dig in deeper because it is like how   getting more reviews, but to hear that there's more beyond just the reviews really can help these offices like get the best bang for their buck, help more practices. And I'm like, it used to be when I first started consulting when I used to tell offices get to like 100 Google reviews. It is now I'm pushing people like five, six, 700 reviews that you need to be getting ranked into. And I don't know if you're seeing like a cutoff line or if it matters on that. So I'm really excited to dive into like, what are the rankings? What are the pieces? Is there a difference? But I'm like now   100 reviews, when I look at somebody I'm like, hmm, like if there's another dental practice that has maybe 400, 500 new clients come on, the first thing I do is I go look them up to see how many reviews do you have? And I'm shocked at how many dental practices actually are not showing up when I Google their names and they're like, no, no, care, we're here. And I'm like, but if I'm a prospective new client that doesn't work in your practice and I don't see you all the time and I just tried to find you and I'm looking for you.   How many patients who are not looking for you are not finding you as well. So yeah, take us away, and I'm super curious, very intrigued by this. It's fascinating. And I'll also say, because AI is new, feel like people got like a reset slate. Like, hey, you can actually get back into the game if you haven't been into the game, if you just start playing now. If you don't, I agree with you. I do think that you will unfortunately get obliterated without trying if you don't get into the game now.   Dr. Len Tau (13:28) 100 % so and I couldn't agree with you more. So the best thing to do here is if you're listening to this, I want you to go to a Google search and I want you to type your practice name in. Okay, so that's the first thing to do. Right.   Kiera Dent (13:39) and not in your office. Don't do it in   your office. Go somewhere else. Like try it somewhere else.   Dr. Len Tau (13:44) Right, well, and 100%, that's another thing is that if you're gonna look up your ranking specifically, you do not wanna do that from your office location, okay? Because you're not gonna get real results. You also wanna go into incognito mode or private browsing mode on your phone or your computer if you're doing that to check ranking. But this is not specifically about ranking. This is more about how you appear online. So go to Google and type in your practice name. Not your name unless it's the name of the practice, but your business name, okay?   Kiera Dent (13:52) Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (14:13) and it doesn't have to be what's registered with the state board. It's how you, when you answer the phone, what you say, okay? Pennsylvania Center for Dental Excellence was my practice name, okay? So you wanna look yourself up. So these are some of the ranking factors that Google looks at. Obviously one of them is your total number of reviews you have. Definitely a ranking factor, but the total number has not been as important as some other factors as well. So.   Kiera Dent (14:20) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (14:40) Average number of reviews in the industry right now is about 350. It used to be like 100 was the golden number. Now 350 is the average in the industry. So are you average? Are you below average or are above average? Okay, that's something to look at. The second ranking factor, which is even more important is the velocity of reviews. So how many reviews, how often you're getting them. Okay, so if you're getting once every two weeks, not enough. If you're getting them once every week,   Kiera Dent (14:46) Yes.   Dr. Len Tau (15:10) Not enough. You don't need them every single day, but two or three every single week is ideal. Okay, because you think two or three every week gives you eight to 15 a month times 12 months is 100 reviews a year, which is a nice number. Okay, so you have to have that velocity. All right. Third ranking factor is the total score, your average number of stars. So   I would like you to be anywhere from 4.6 to five stars. Okay. I don't think you have to be only five stars. think there's a negativity related to that. If you're only five star reviews, but I also don't want you to below 4.5. Okay. ⁓ And if you're at 4.3, 4.2, or even 4.1, another better review or two, and you're to be in the threes. And that's really where you don't want to go. Cause you lose a huge percentage of patients who may come in if you're less than four stars. Okay. Another ranking factor.   is the primary category. So how do you know your primary category? If you look under your Google, your name, will say right where the stars is, will say, hopefully dentist in your town or dentist in your county or dentist in your city. Okay. So your primary category should be dentist because we're a dental practice. Okay. If you're an oral surgeon, you may want it to be oral and actual facial surgeon. If you're an endodontist, want it to say endodontist. You don't want it to say dentist if you're a specialist. Okay.   ⁓ That's a big ranking factor and I'll give you an example. I, ⁓ my wife had some plastic surgery over the last couple of years and we were referred to that doctor. So we didn't need to search for him. We were referred to him. went in, we liked him, we used his services. ⁓ And of course, being a plastic surgeon, I talked to him about reviews. He now uses BirdEye, but he had me speak in an event that he holds down here in Boca Raton.   And I talked about this exactly. And I asked everybody, cause it was a small group. What is your primary category? And he goes, he said to me, literally, he says, I'm listed as a nurse practitioner. He wasn't listed as a plastic surgeon. He was listed as a nurse practitioner. So his categories were all messed up. So when you actually typed in plastic surgeon near me, he never showed up because his category was wrong. So primary category is a very important ranking factor as well. Now you also have to make sure your secondary categories are also. ⁓   Kiera Dent (17:15) No.   Dr. Len Tau (17:35) ⁓ under ⁓ are there as well as under the proper categories. So secondary categories, if you're a dentist, dental clinic, teeth whitening services, denture care center, orthodontist, if you're doing aligners, if you're endo, you're doing root canals, you can have endodontist. If you do periodontist, can do periodontist. You want to make sure you have nine secondary categories. Okay, if you don't have them, you want to add them.   Now, how do you add them? It's very easy. You go to Google using ChatGPT or anything and say, how do I add secondary categories to my Google business listing? Okay. It will tell you exactly like a recipe how to do it. You need to add those secondary categories. All right. And if you want help doing it, you can always reach out to me. The last ranking factor, which is really important is making sure that the practices name, address, and phone number is consistent. Okay. So just to be clear, most   website companies do not do local SEO. They do website SEO, which is making sure the website is SEOed so the website ranks higher on the organic rankings. We're talking about getting the Google business page ranking higher, which the website companies are not focused on. So when it comes to the name, address and phone number, is it consistent? You have to be consistent. And this is a Google requirement.   It is not a patient thing. It's not a me thing or you thing. It's a Google requirement that this data is consistent. So the name is obviously important. So if you have the and or the ampersand, you may find things inconsistent. When it comes to the address, if you have, you know, South State Streets, Unit 510, you can have South or S, you can have Street or ST, and then you can have Suite, Unit, Number, or STE.   All these variations need to be consistent. So one of them has to be done and one and stuck with. And then if you are using a tracking number for whatever reason on your Google business listing, you may find your inconsistent there as well. So when you make everything consistent and you get a higher velocity of reviews, guess what happens over time? You rank higher on the maps. And when you rank higher on the maps, you get more visible for patients to find you. So that's where the secret sauce is. And   Not that this is a sales pitch about BirdEye, but that's exactly what BirdEye does. BirdEye does those. We check all those boxes for you. And then what ends up happening is a practices get more reviews. But more importantly, when they ask patients how they find them, they're going to see that they found them because of their ranking online and the reviews drove them to the practice. So that's how this whole thing plays a role in getting a practice more visible and credible.   Kiera Dent (20:06) Thank   Wow. So I was over here like taking a lot of notes, which I really loved. I love the number, the 350 at the average, the velocity, like three to five per week you were saying. It doesn't need to be an everyday, but I do agree like them consistently coming through the total score, the 4.6 to five primary category, secondary category, making sure we have nine. And then you were talking about like the practice name, phone number, all of that has to be consistent. So the addresses have to be the same. And that's going to help you rank higher.   Did I miss anything? Those are my notes, Len. And I'm just curious, like, did I catch them all? Because there was a lot of pieces to consider. And then I have some follow ups as well. So like, did I miss anything in that list?   Dr. Len Tau (21:02) No, I   think you got it all there.   Kiera Dent (21:06) Okay, so hopefully that was a good recap for everybody. If you were listening, I tried to like summarize everything he said, because I really feel that those are super valuable pieces to know. Now, Len, there's a couple of things that happen and I'm very curious of what you've seen. Maybe you know, maybe you don't know. It's just a riff for me genuinely curious over here. Does it impact for the business to respond to the reviews? Because I know there was like a big misnomer out there like for a while, like you have to respond to every single review that helps you rank higher. What's the   What's kind of the lay of the land right now responding to the reviews that come in?   Dr. Len Tau (21:39) So there's been a big push over the years to respond to reviews. And there's also been those naysayers who don't want you to respond to reviews. So I want to make this very clear. When you respond to a review and you acknowledge them as a patient, you are technically violating HIPAA. Okay. Now by the letter of the law, if you do that, you violated HIPAA and can be in trouble. Now in all the years I've been doing this, I've only seen one   Kiera Dent (21:49) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (22:08) example of a positive review being responded to and the dentist got in trouble. Okay. So if someone writes a review for you and it's five stars and you say, thank you so much for your feedback. We were glad you had a great experience in our practice. Okay. You technically violated HIPAA there because you acknowledged that they came into the practice. I don't think you'll ever run into any problems with that. I don't, I've never seen any instance when a, when a practice has got into trouble. But again, by the letter of the law, it's a violation.   Here's where the person ran into a problem. Okay. So the review in question, the patient wrote, I'm so happy with my appearance after I went to so-and-so's dental office. I think they were in Texas. The dentist responded, we're so happy that you, thank you so much for your review. We're so happy that you loved our magic needles. Okay. So it, from what I understand is the patient had Botox or   dermal fillers placed and that's what they call their magic needles. So the patient wrote, wrote a letter to the practice saying, I didn't appreciate you letting the world know that I had Botox done and asked for the review response to be taken down, which the dentist immediately did. Took it down and apologized, but it really pissed the patient off and the patient sued the dentist and won. Okay. Because the dentist went out of their way to   Kiera Dent (23:08) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Dr. Len Tau (23:33) you know, release private information that wasn't supposed to be done. So in that case, you shouldn't be doing that. Okay. Now on the same note, I would be very careful responding.   Kiera Dent (23:37) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (23:45) to a review that's left by a negative, a negative review that's written by a patient. I would be very careful responding publicly to that because it's very hard to respond without violating HIPAA. So a simple response like, we're sorry to hear about your experience. Please contact the office to discuss the concerns as we're unfortunately unable to comment due to HIPAA release privacy stuff. That's fine. But.   Again, I just not sure it's the best thing to do. So you have to be careful with negative reviews. What it doesn't do is we really haven't found any relationship between responding and ranking. Okay, so you have to, I always leave it up to the people to respond. I like using AI to respond as well, because I think it comes up with HIPAA compliant and really good responses. ⁓ But you have to decide what you want to do for your own practice.   Kiera Dent (24:16) Mm-hmm.   Interesting.   That's actually really helpful to know. ⁓ Okay, good feedback for people to ponder and decide what they want to do on. The second piece is   some people lose their Google My Business and they're not able to be found. ⁓ And I don't know if you have reasons why. I don't know if it's from like a name change or it's inconsistent. So like a lot of offices have a lot of reviews, but when you go to search them, they're hidden on Google My Business. Like it will show up on the person's side, but nobody externally can find it. Do you have any ideas of like what causes that or what offices can do if they're struggling with that?   Dr. Len Tau (25:11) So I want to clarify that what question you asked there. I'm sorry to ask a question when you asked the question was when you say that you're saying that when they search for their Google business listing, they can't find it or when someone is searching for the office, they're not visible on the maps.   Kiera Dent (25:15) Hey, that's okay.   So when they're searching, so if I just go into Google and I type in like my perfect smile, the website might link, but the Google My Business with all, and they might have like 150 Google reviews, like it might be, like they've got them all and the office can see it when they like log in as like, this is, you own this, but they've lost it and it's no longer visible publicly. Do you know what causes that or how they can get that back? It's okay if you don't, I'm just genuinely curious. Cause I know some offices struggle with this, especially with like name changes of practices.   going through different ownerships. ⁓ Some of them have told me it's like when I changed the name of my practice, it no longer showed up. Like we have all these reviews, but we're not showing up. Do you know what causes that or how practices can get back being visible?   Dr. Len Tau (26:02) Yep. Now that you   asked it that way, so that usually means that your Google business listing has been suspended. And if you can't find it on search, but you see it, means it's suspended in most cases. Name changes, address changes, other things you do can cause it to be suspended. There are, if you look up on use chat GPT, ⁓   and say, why is, why can your Google business page be suspended? There is a list of different reasons why it can get suspended. ⁓ if you're getting reviews the wrong way is a big one. So, like you should not be incentivizing for reviews. And I'm talking about incentivizing the patients. You shouldn't be getting reviews in your physical office space because there's IP address conflicts and location services on the patient's phone. So if you're doing that, not only will you can potentially lose reviews, but you can't get it suspended, but you can look on.   Kiera Dent (26:37) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (26:55) on chat GPT or Google and just say, what are the reasons that your business page can be suspended? And they're there. So usually you have to ⁓ re-approve it or re-verify that page. And there's certain things you do. You'll have to take a video of yourself in front of the practice, showing the address, showing the name of the business on the door. So there's things you will have to do to get it over to Google. So they'll re-verify you. And then once it happens, there's a good chance they'll unsuspend the listing. But that happens for that reason.   Kiera Dent (27:24) Gotcha. Okay. That's super helpful because I know a few offices have struggled with that. So was just curious for that. All right. This has been so helpful to figure out rankings. It's been helpful to understand. ⁓ My last question as we wrap up today on reviews has been so helpful, Len, is how do offices go about like, what are your recommendations? Yes, bird eye, swell, podium. Like there's a lot of review in Weave. I do, I usually recommend using an external one outside of things. think that they like, if they're just, if that's what they do, they're going to be experts at it.   But how can offices ethically and appropriately, like obviously great patient experience, but how do they increase these Google reviews? What are some of the best tactics you've seen to help these offices out?   Dr. Len Tau (28:04) So being biased, I mean, I'm a true believer in BirdEye because we help with the reviews and the ranking part. ⁓ Swell, which is a great product. know the guys who swell really well. A lot of their doctors don't rank well because they don't focus on the listings part of it or the ranking part of it. ⁓ I'm not a fan of Wee from a review perspective because they swell BirdEye and Podium, make it very easy. Weave doesn't. It's just the way we do it with our three other products. ⁓   I always say this, you can get reviews any way you want. The most effective is gonna be use some software, simple as that. But it all starts with the practice and it all starts with, I like to create a reputation culture in the practice, which means you know that every time a patient comes in the practice, that they're going to be evaluating you and reviewing you potentially. And you've gotta be on your best behavior, you've gotta put a happy smile on your face, you gotta treat them like they're the...   Kiera Dent (28:40) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (29:00) king of the world, okay? You gotta roll out the red carpet. And if you don't do that, they may write a bad review, okay? But if you don't create that reputation culture, I think it's gonna be hard to get the practice to really accelerate the reviews. So creating that reputation culture using great verbiage skills. I love calling it feedback, not a review. If you call it a review, it sounds like you're begging for it. ⁓ The feedback conversation is much more comfortable to have. So, you know, it's an interesting situation, but if you don't ask, you don't get.   So you've got to ask. I think if you ask and you combine it with a really good software, you'll get a really good number of reviews. If you don't ask, you don't get. It's that simple.   Kiera Dent (29:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   ⁓ well, that was so great. I appreciate this so much. And it's fun to hear about how AI is helping. It's fun to hear about how you still have to be great on Google. So ⁓ I just appreciate you. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate the knowledge you shared. appreciate for offices. I hope they take action and Len any last thoughts, how people can connect with you if they want more help on this. know ⁓ like truly in my opinion, this is the simplest marketing. Everybody wants to like sexy magic pill of marketing. And I'm like, no, it's like really great experience. Ask for the reviews, ask for the feedback.   like rank so that way people can find you I've had offices that had like three four or five new patients and they're like I need this marketing I need all these things which I'm not here to say not to do it but I will say great reviews will boost you very quickly so Len any last thoughts you've got how people can connect with you because it's been truly just an incredible episode today   Dr. Len Tau (30:26) So ⁓ I'm around the country a lot. So you can always connect with me in person if I'm at some of these events. If you wanna come to Supercharge, you can connect me there. SuperchargeYourDentalPractice.com You can use the code RAVING to save $100 on registration. ⁓ We also have some scholarships available. So if you do wanna come, you can reach out to me personally. So ⁓ my cell phone's all over the internet. The easiest way, if you have any questions, you want advice, you want help, I'm the guy to reach out to. My phone number is 215.   Kiera Dent (30:40) Awesome.   Dr. Len Tau (30:55) 292-2100. And my best email is Len, L-E-N, at drlentau.com, which is D-R-L-E-N-T-A-U.com. And you can email me, you can text me, you can call me, tell me you heard about me here and you need some advice. I'm more than happy to offer it to you. I do it all the time. ⁓ I love when people reach out to me because they know I'm an expert. So I do it kind of as a favor to people. ⁓ But no, you reach out to me, I'm happy to give advice.   Kiera Dent (31:23) amazing. Len, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I'm super excited for Supercharge 2025 and especially 2026. So everybody snag that. And truly, I hope you take action from today's podcast. This is easy ways for you to boost your marketing, be found and seen online. And Len, thank you for joining me today. I truly, truly appreciate you.   Dr. Len Tau (31:41) Thank you for having me, Kiera, I appreciate it.   Kiera Dent (31:43) Of course. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Title: How to Quit Your W-2 and Never Look Back with Jamie Bateman Summary: In this episode of Raise the Bar Radio, Seth Bradley welcomes Jamie, a military veteran turned real estate and mortgage note investor, who shares his story of transitioning from a W-2 career into entrepreneurship and financial freedom. Jamie discusses the phases of his life, including collegiate sports, military service, and a long stint at the Department of Defense before pivoting to real estate and eventually mortgage note investing. He emphasizes how discipline shaped his journey and how shifting mindset, focusing on strengths, and leveraging his network were key to taking ownership of his life and finances. Jamie also dives deep into the mortgage note investing space, explaining how performing and non-performing notes work, the active nature of the business, and how he now offers passive investment opportunities for accredited investors. He closes by highlighting the importance of planning with intention, overcoming perfectionism, and using passive income to create margin and freedom in life. Links to Watch and Subscribe:  https://youtu.be/nRyX8_YA9YI Bullet Point Highlights: Discipline builds freedom - Sports, military, and entrepreneurship all instilled the value of discipline, which Jamie says is critical for success and freedom. W-2 life wasn't the path - Jamie recognized through his commute and stagnant career trajectory that he didn't want to follow the traditional path, sparking his exit plan. Mindset shift was essential - He stopped consuming negative news and started focusing on education and his strengths to shift into entrepreneurship. Mortgage note investing explained - Performing notes offer cash flow while non-performing notes offer the chance to add value, akin to fix and flips. However, both are active businesses, not passive. Passive income fuels risk-taking - Creating passive income streams allowed Jamie to take entrepreneurial risks while maintaining financial security. Action beats perfection - As an entrepreneur, chasing perfection isn't practical. Done is better than perfect. Reverse planning drives clarity - Backwards planning from a vivid vision 3-5 years into the future increases urgency and helps set clear, intentional actions. Final advice - Start by investing passively to learn, and later you can decide whether to become active. Don't underestimate the transferable skills you already possess. Transcript: (Seth Bradley) (00:02.062) What's up, builders? This is Raise the Bar Radio, where we talk about building wealth, raising capital, and all in all, raising the bar in your business and your life. This is the No BS podcast for capital raisers, investors, and entrepreneurs who are serious about scaling their business and living life on their own terms. I'm Seth Bradley, securities attorney, real estate investor, and entrepreneur, bringing you world-class strategies from the best in the game.   If you're ready to raise more capital, close bigger deals, build a better you and create true financial freedom, you're in the right place. Let's go. Jamie, what's going on, brother? Welcome to the show.   Thanks Seth, is awesome. I'm excited to be here and I'm hoping to add some value.   Absolutely, man. Third time's a charm. We've been trying to get this scheduled after I was on your show, which was fantastic. Had a really good time on that show and I think it turned out pretty good. I know we're going to deliver on this one as well.   Yeah, we're gonna try to try to I'll try to do as good a job as you did. So yeah, was that was a yeah, no, I that was a very, very good episode from adversity to abundance. highly recommend your your listeners check that one out to your episode on that show. So thanks for thanks for doing that.   (Seth Bradley) (01:20.086) Absolutely, man. You're an incredible interviewer. I've net, that's the only, I've been on dozens of podcasts and, you know, you pulled out a lot of things for me that I've, I've never talked about on the air. So it's pretty, pretty awesome. Pretty awesome show, man.   Appreciate that.   Cool man, well let's just jump right into your background man. What's your story? Take it back as far as you'd like to brother.   Yeah. Man, I'd like to think that life has phases. So I've had a few different phases in my life. I come from a large family. I'm the oldest of seven kids and we always had a competitive background as far as team sports and things like that. So I played lacrosse in college. That was always a foundational piece of my life and just kind of   think from there learned how to be a part of something bigger than myself and how to work toward a common goal with a with a team. So that's been something that's been a kind of a thread through my life and then got married and joined the military and actually joined the military technically before I got married, but seemed like I got married and then ran off and ran away from my wife. But it's not exactly what happened. But   (Jamie Bateman) (02:36.02) I joined the military, was an officer in the US Army. I did miss my first three wedding anniversaries through deployment and things like that. And again, it was a matter of trying to be plugged into something, you know, to serve and be a part of something bigger than myself and trying to add value like I think we all want to do. I've obviously glossed over a lot of details, but those were a couple of inflection points, I guess, if you will, like you like to talk about, I know.   And so my military career transitioned into a career with the Department of Defense as a civilian, and did 14 years as a civilian with DoD at Fort Meade. And the first half, so the first seven, for all you math wizards out there, was full time. And then the second half, the second seven years was part time. And that   seven years is when I was really building my businesses, which are largely real estate investing and mortgage note investing focus. So we can get into the details there. And then in 2022, I ended up quitting my job and now I have a few different small businesses that I run. And like you, Seth, I've got a lot of different things that I'm juggling and   You know, so, but yeah, I love talking about taking ownership of your financial situation and taking ownership of your life really. And I know that you and I have that in common. So yeah, that's a high level overview of my background.   Awesome, man. I appreciate that. There's a lot to unpack there. You know, going back to playing sports all the way up to the collegiate level, that's incredible. I always like to think even playing like popcorn or football back in the day, you need a way to instill discipline in yourself. And that's kind of the oldest memory I can think of where it was hard, right? Like it was like you've got a coach screaming at you.   (Seth Bradley) (04:38.134) Like back in the day, it's like, you know, they wouldn't give you water unless you like, you know, for like an hour, which I don't think they do that anymore now. But, you you had to earn that drink of water and all those sorts of things. But you you really learned what it's like to work hard and you really learned what discipline was all about. And I would say that and you can you can expand on this. But I would say that, you know, being in the military yourself, that takes it to a whole new level.   Right. It's like you got that from sports. You got that from the military.   Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously, they're very different in a lot of ways. But that is certainly a common theme is being disciplined. And people, people shy away from that word, because it just sounds like work or no fun and no flexibility. But I found that having discipline in your life ends up adding more freedom in a sense, because you kind of have your foundational pieces set in stone, you don't have to think about those. And so, yeah, regarding   team sports, it's really a matter of, you know, everyone doing their part, right. And so there's a level of individual discipline and, and then just, and then also just kind of putting the putting the group ahead of yourself. Obviously, you know, you want individual, there's nothing wrong with individual accolades. And I was certainly chasing, you know, those individual accolades. It's not something I shied away from, I was definitely was wrapped up in   trying to be an All-American and that kind of thing. And did get that a couple of times, you know, but at the end of the day, nobody really cares about that. And the way I viewed it was if I was doing my part, and I got those, you if I was scoring goals in lacrosse, as an example, that means I'm contributing to, you know, to the team, right. And so there's obviously a fine line there, but of going too far, either way. But yeah, that discipline is critical.   (Jamie Bateman) (06:36.73) you know, even it's certain I played at a high level in college and there was year round your training your your your into it. It was a division three school but it but the reality was we worked just as hard as any any D one program and yeah, it's it's a these are skills that have paid off and are absolutely transferable to the rest of life.   For sure. Yeah, I think you've got to get those intangible things. You've got to develop them somewhere along the way, whatever that is, if that's sports or the military or from your parents. mean, you can get it from different places, but you definitely need it. I mean, we're in different stages of our life at this point. talking about a lot. We talk about freedom and flexibility and fun to try to get away from kind of the W-2 mindset.   But in order to achieve freedom, flexibility and fun in a successful way, have to be disciplined to be able to get there. You had to have done something successfully to be able to get there or maybe what separates you from the guy living in a van down by the river. That guy has freedom and flexibility. I don't know about fun, maybe fun, but it's a different, obviously it's a different outcome.   Yeah, and I, I think I still need, you I still use a lot of discipline today. It's still, still required, but it's, I guess it's self imposed. And, you know, I just love, love having that flexibility and that freedom that comes along with being an entrepreneur. So yeah, it's been a central piece to my success for sure. But I still, I don't think it ever, you know, goes away. I just get to pick and choose what, you know, what discipline I want to   kind of enforce on myself, I guess. So yeah, absolutely. And as you said, the military was a huge part of that for me as well. I mean, that's a different kind of, different kind of discipline and different kind of teamwork and different, you know, if you lose the lacrosse game, okay, you lost the lacrosse game, but military the stakes are a little higher. So maybe certain things are more important attention to detail or critic is critical and   (Jamie Bateman) (08:53.73) But at the end of the day, it's, the same principles apply across both, I guess, sectors, if you will.   For sure. So let's dive into that transition. You started working kind of part-time there for seven years, so that seems like a transitional period. How were you able to progress from that W2? And what I've heard you say is call yourself a W2 quitter. I love that. How were you able to progress from a W2 person to a W2 quitter? What enabled you to do that and what that transition looked like?   I mean, you know, I do remember in 2015, probably a little bit maybe maybe say 2014. But I just you get, you know, I had a wife and two kids and I had the commute the long commute that I know a lot of people can identify with. So it just was Groundhog Day was the same thing over and over and over. And that's not me sitting here complaining about my family or having having the opportunity to work.   But after a while, it gets old. Let's just be real, right? So it's like you're sitting in traffic and I just, you start looking at, you know, I worked for the government and you look around and you say, who, okay, who's sort of ahead of me on this? Like you, like I think you probably mentioned on our, on your, your show and my, show, your episode, you look around to the people who are more kind of further along the path than you. You say, do you want to be that person? Is that the life you want? And man, I did not want that.   And it just just having that just super long term just you know, pot at the end of the rainbow, I guess, nothing driving me in the interim, man, it was it was just it was brutal. So I probably did a little woes me for a little bit there a little victim mentality for a bit. But then you start to realize, like, okay, if you don't take ownership of your own life, no one's going to right. So   (Jamie Bateman) (10:54.934) No one's going to come in and do this for you. So I'm not sure what truly, you know, created the change in my mindset, but my mindset absolutely started to change and it just made a shift. And I, and I stopped watching cable news. I stopped, just, you know, stop paying attention to all the things that I can't control. And I couldn't control back then and, and started saying, no, what do I have? What are my strengths? Who is in my, who's back to the team thing.   who's on my team, who's in my network that I can add value to and who can add value to me. So I started looking around and my father was a realtor for many years. My brother was a loan officer. We had one rental property at the time. I had worked at, I didn't mention, I worked at a title company and I worked for a mortgage broker before as well briefly. So I had this experience that a lot of people don't have and that's   you know, that doesn't mean I'm better than anyone. It just means these are my strengths. So let's point to that. And let's use that. So I started really being intentional about focusing on my strengths and my assets that I had in my life, right. And then another asset that I used to see as a liability was the time in the car. So I started listening to podcasts. you know, and then it turned into wait, I don't even want to go into work yet. Because this this podcast episode is amazing. And I'm learning so much.   know, bigger pockets and all the other real estate podcasts and different investing podcasts and started using that mental bandwidth instead of focusing on national media stories that I have zero influence over. Here's something that I can actually take action on. And so in mid 2015, I went part time and it just so happens that at   DoD is one of the few agencies in the in federal government where you can go part time and still keep your benefits. So I still had health insurance for my family. You know, most people don't have that option necessarily, but well, I did. So that's what I did. And, and, you know, that's, again, decided to decide to start building my my other streams of income outside of my W two.   (Jamie Bateman) (13:15.752) my circumstances been different if I was single, I probably would have just quit the whole thing, right? But I was able to have that kind of laddered approach, I guess, or tiered approach to kind of ripping off the bandaid.   Yeah, yeah, no, that's awesome. I love just the idea of taking ownership of your life, right? Like everybody has those moments where they're feeling sorry for themselves. But the successful people, they don't sit there and stay in that mindset. They move on. You're going to be there sometimes where you've got to get out of it. You got to say, OK, what can I control? What can I change? And you don't say you don't give other people the power to control.   you and your mindset and how you feel about your life. Right. Like that's that's that's the thing. Like if you you're constantly blaming someone else or saying this happened to me rather than what can I do to get myself out of it, then you're going to be stuck there forever. You're going to be absolutely going to be spinning your wheels forever. And a lot of that, I think, helps because you said you don't listen. You don't watch the news. I don't either. No, it's a waste of time. What control? What does that do for us? If I do watch it.   I literally do it for entertainment and you look at it as an entertain. I look at it like I'm watching. I look at it like this is funny. Like I can, you know what I mean? You kind of analyze it like, this is funny. This guy's saying this in a debate. Right. This guy's saying that it's not taking it as a news and this is how I should live my life because of what they're saying.   sports almost.   (Jamie Bateman) (14:43.341) Fact.   (Jamie Bateman) (14:48.078) Absolutely. And it's not to say that none of these topics are important, mean, global war, politics, poverty, global warming, whatever, it's all very important, but I have zero control over it, almost zero, right? And then the other thing is fear sells and that's what they're selling. And so it doesn't mean that every story is invented and it's all fake news, but it's   it just doesn't serve me. And so I'd rather focus on, you know, go ground up and kind of just, I see it in people, maybe older people in my own life now who maybe are retired and they watch the news all day. And it's like, they won't travel because they saw a news story that the airports are packed or something. And, you know, it's, I'm sure that story was, was accurate, right. But it, but the, but the news can filter out and you end up only focusing on   the negative really, and it just didn't serve me. yeah, during that lot, the second seven years, I was able to build out my wife and I were doing single family real estate investing and doing a lot of the BRRRR method that maybe some of your audience is familiar with. And so kind of putting that capital back into the rental property machine and expanding our portfolio. And then eventually last year, well, and   2018, made the pivot, I kept the rental properties, but made a pivot to also add on mortgage note investing. And that's been my primary focus as of late. And if you want, can tell the story quickly about how I actually quit my job in 2022. I think it's kind of a funny one.   Absolutely, let's do it.   (Jamie Bateman) (16:38.318) All right. So, I, so I, two years ago, I was playing badminton and, I'd been doing now, mind you, I used to be like tough, you know, athlete. And like I did, you know, did jujitsu for three years right up before this. And, know, I used to lift weights a lot and still do it here and there, but, you know, I think I'm tough. Right. And,   ruptured my Achilles playing badminton. So that's an ego blow to add on to the physical pain that you know, especially with the recovery. So rupture my Achilles a little over two years ago today and I was out of work, it was my right right foot. And the reason I bring this up is not for sympathy, but to say, you know, I couldn't drive for three months. So I actually, yeah, and I had tons of leave from from work and   By this time, I was tired, really tired of my, I was pretty much checked out. Like I think you, might've been at your, your big law job, but I was, I was checked out. mean, I wasn't the best employee at this point. And so I took as much leave as I, as I could, you know, reasonably right. And so, but couldn't drive. And so I was out for three months and I come back. So come back into work and I'd had discussions with my wife about, about leaving. was just a matter of, of when, not if.   That's right   (Jamie Bateman) (18:04.43) I can tell you truthfully, I had no idea that I was going to quit this day, but I came back in from having been out for three months. Mind you, no one gave me a call. No one from work, no one from my management gave me a call the entire three months I was out, other than to say, to ask me, are you vaccinated? Because you have to be vaccinated to be, to get inside the building. Now, I don't want this to turn into some controversial vaccine discussion.   or get your podcast banned from something but yes, I'd been vaccinated to answer the question. But no one asked me how's your how's your recovery going? Like how you what do you you know, how's your life? You know, what's it's just are you vaccinated, you need to get that shot before you come in? Okay, great. Thanks. I really feel welcome here. So I'm already just, you know, you know what, screw this place, right? Come back in and just   go to my desk, and this is this is an office space kind of thing where I go to my desk and there's some there's an Air Force kid at my desk and long story short, they kind of moved me somewhere else without telling me I can't find my desk, I finally find it, it's got a box with my name on it with, you know, monitors sideways and all and clearly not a functioning desk and, you know, office space. So I literally quit that day. And I just say that it's just like,   I knew 100 % I was done. My wife didn't know I quit, but I quit that day. Still worked for another month or two, but there was no question, zero question in my mind, I'm done with this place. So that was March of 2022. And ever since then, I've just focused on building out my businesses and having look back.   That's awesome. Sometimes you just know, right? Like sometimes it's done. You just knew. I love that story, man. For me, it was a little bit. You already know the story, but for me, it was a little bit more of someone else's decision. I got fired. mean, and you mentioned that, you you weren't the best employee at that point. Correct. I knew the same thing. And it's great to have awareness and perspective and kind of looking back now, you're like, I would have done the same thing. Like this guy doesn't want to be here.   (Seth Bradley) (20:21.292) His output isn't what it should be. Like, he's got to go. mean, he's not the best employee. And as a business owner now, I have really good perspective of that and seeing that. And they were doing me a favor by being like, hey, your heart's not in it, it? And I'm like, no, it's not.   It's not. Yeah. The reality is for me, it's really hard to work. know, once you go part time, I mean, I knew I was casting a vote against my career progression there. So as soon as I went part time in 2015, I wasn't saying I'm in this for the long haul guys. This is this is my focus. You know, it's the writing's somewhat on the wall. Looking back, it's almost surprising. I lasted as long as I did. But so, yeah, haven't looked back and just loved love the entrepreneurial   you know, day to day and freedom that you alluded to and just the multiple streams of income and certainly has its challenges. I probably work harder now than ever than I ever have. But it's by choice. So I love it.   Exactly. Same here, man. mean, it's, you my days are long. I mean, I get up way before I used to get up when I had a 95. I worked past when I would have worked a 95 and definitely more hours. But when you're doing it for yourself and you're doing it because you're working towards something that you believe in, it doesn't feel like you're putting that much time in.   Definitely. I wake up early. A lot of days not on purpose is because I'm just excited to get cracking.   (Seth Bradley) (21:55.886) So, yeah. absolutely. Yeah. Well, let's kind of get into your current business. I know you mentioned that you focused on your strengths and your assets. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's important. just say it's important to take an inventory of what your strengths are when you're kind of considering going into something else, because a lot of our listeners are attorneys, they're doctors, folks like that. They kind of feel like maybe they're pigeonholed, right? Like, well, if I'm not an attorney, what the hell else can I do?   Right. And like, I don't know anything about real estate investing or node investing or starting a business or anything like that. But if you really take a step back, you probably have a lot of skills that you've learned and honed in your career that you can use for something else moving forward. And that was that's what you were able to   to do. Definitely. And one thing I'd say is that, you know, one thing that's always comforting for me is nobody knows everything, right? So you can always find somebody who knows more than you in a certain area. You know, there's one quote about every man is my superior in something, right? So basically, it gives me a lot of comfort to know, like, just because an attorney listening to your show knows a   way more than I do about a particular topic and probably many, many other topics. That doesn't mean I'm less of a person or you know, I don't know more than that attorney does in another area. So it's okay, I'm never going to know everything. There are other people who've already figured it out. So you know, that's, that's always comforting to me is to when I say look to your strengths, it's also looking to the people in your network who know, it can help you get to where you want to go. So yeah, I mean,   So many things we take for granted that we do know. you know, example, when I started working at a title company, fresh out of college, because it was my first real job, and it paid, you know, a salary. I realized quickly how little I knew about title insurance settlements, you know, just just basic stuff. Now looking back, pretty basic stuff. But you don't know that unless you work for a title company, or you're heavily involved in this, you don't you're not.   (Jamie Bateman) (24:10.03) trained in that in school typically, right? So, you know, you forget and so your your listener out there, the attorney, the doctor, guarantee they have a lot of life experience, not just from their professional world, but just life experience that they shouldn't take for granted. And the fact that you can go through law school and then be, you know, be an effective attorney, or go through medical school and be an effective doctor, that that means you you can learn things, right? And so   Again, I'll go back to life as seasons. I mean, you've shown that in your own story, Seth, like, you know, it's a, doesn't mean just because I started a certain business doesn't mean that's going to be what I'm going to be doing for the next 20 years, or just because I'm an attorney now, it doesn't mean that's what I have to do for the rest of my life. So we always have options. mean, you might look back and wish you'd done something differently or something, but you only have one chance at this. And so,   you know, just make the most of it and just keep, think, keep learning constantly is critical. I just hired a business coach, we've had one call. But one of his mottos is, you know, one of his sayings is that he's always he's in permanent beta. So he's always changing, always improving, he's always growing. So I'm trying to trying to implement that as well.   (Seth Bradley) (25:40.64) the interruption, but we don't do ads. Instead, know that if you're raising capital for real estate, my law firm, RaiseLaw, is here to give you the expert legal guidance you need to raise capital compliantly and structure and close your deal. And if you're looking for a done-for-you fund-to-fund solution, Tribest is the industry's only all-in-one setup and fund administration solution. Visit Raise.Law and Tribest.com to learn more.   Yeah, I love that permanent beta. I haven't heard that before, but I like that. I like that phrase. like that phrase. So tell me about your current business. Tell me about MortgageNode Investing. Start with the basics. What is it?   Yeah, so and, and I'll try to keep it, there's so much to it. But again, none of it is difficult. It's just a lot of moving parts and you've got to, you know, takes time to learn. We buy debt, so we buy a mortgage note, and that could be performing or non performing. The real high level version is, is a performing note is kind of like a long term buy and hold rental property.   but you're buying the debt and becoming the lender, becoming the bank, if you will. And so you're buying that performing note for cashflow. So I buy a performing note, the borrower now pays me through a loan servicer and I get monthly payments. So that's a great way to go. The problem with that is you can't really add value to that asset very well. You're kind of, it is what it is. And in fact, with mortgage notes, the value actually goes down over time, generally speaking, because   principal balance goes down. So it's just, it's worth less than, you know, then, you know, then it would then it was when you bought it. Then on the other side, the non performing side of things, we buy those as well. And those are more like a fix and flip property. So although we're still buying the debt, we're not buying the property. But there's a chance to add value, there's an opportunity to buy distressed asset and add value to that asset and then sell that that non performing note, either well,   (Jamie Bateman) (27:49.826) I should say sell that asset, whether that's as a re performing note, or as through the the real estate itself, there are a few different ways you can exit a non performing note deal. And but, but back to your kind of one of the themes thus far, one of the reasons I got into specifically that space was that I understood the real estate space. So I understood the single family, residential real estate space. So it wasn't a huge leap for me to go from   owning the property to now owning the debt on that property. Whereas it would have been a lot bigger leap for me to say, I to start buying distressed, you know, multifamily debt, which I know you could probably help me understand better. But at that, you know, it's like, incremental progress and change isn't that scary. So I kind of expanded my, you know, toolbox, if you will.   and got into the mortgage note space. So we have a couple of note funds. One is open currently and they're all for accredited investors. the income fund that's open pays a monthly, aims to pay a monthly preferred return. I know you and a lot of your listeners are attorneys, so I gotta hold the line here. And...   So the fund is structured to pay, to aim to pay a monthly return of 8%. It's not a, there's no growth in that fund. It's literally a cashflow play and diversification play. You're putting your capital in. We buy assets across the country. We've bought notes in probably 25 states at this point. And so the investment is diversified across geographic areas, across borrower types.   And we buy for a certain yield, we take a small management fee, and then we ideally pay the preferred return that we're aiming for to our investors.   (Seth Bradley) (29:56.686) Yeah, nice. 506c, you're able to talk about it. It's a credit investors only. Just want to that out there. yeah, I mean, so just going back to the basics a little bit and we'll get back into the fun. Like, how do you, how do you even find these things? mean, yeah, that's, how do you get started? How do you find these things?   So I mean, that is an ongoing challenge. I'm not going to lie to you. That's one of the things that truthfully a passive investor who doesn't have time to develop the network to go find these assets, they're just not going to have success. They might here and there, but it takes time. It's a word of mouth industry, just like real estate itself is. so we've built out a network of sellers and that could be   quite honestly, I've never had luck buying directly from banks. It's really either a larger Mortgage Note fund that's closing. So it might be a three year fund and then they've got to, they've got to liquidate, they've got to figure out how to sell off what to do with these assets. And so that's a great opportunity to buy is just a fund that's closing or somebody a note investor who's getting out of note investing or they've had a life change or something, you know, where   they just, there's an opportunity to buy from them as well. And so there are other, you know, I guess we buy from hedge funds, note investors, other note funds. There are also note brokers as well out there. There are also some online exchanges like paper stack and a couple of others that you can go and I've bought and sold on paper stack and other exchanges as well.   And you can find assets there. But at the end of the day, have our list of people that we work with regularly. And I would say one thing is that doing due diligence on a note seller is just as important as due diligence on the assets that they're selling. And so it's taken some work and it's a work in progress always. But it is the million dollar question is where do find these assets?   (Seth Bradley) (32:12.598) Yeah. So that's the hard part, right? Finding these assets is the hard part. Have you ever had to foreclose on any of these notes and actually acquire the property? And I guess a follow-up question is, do you ever look at a non-performing note like, hey, I actually want to own that property?   So, great questions. Yeah, great questions. To be clear, we're not trying to kick people, you know, grandma out on onto the street or anything like that. You know, that's not our goal typically. Well, that's never our goal. But we're never trying to kick someone out of their home. But the reality is, some people honestly need a little bit of a kick in the pants. And oftentimes, that's not really the best them staying in the house is not often   the best scenario for them. know that might sound harsh, but at end of the day, if someone can't afford to live somewhere, sometimes these people are living in squalor and they really need a change of environment. To answer your question about do we target the property? Yes, sometimes we do. In fact, we just closed on to, they're called heckum loans or reverse mortgages, where the borrowers are deceased. The property is underwater, meaning, you know,   the loan amount is higher, than the property value. And it should be a quick exit through the property. So HUD will sell off these big pools of reverse mortgages. And we were able to purchase two of them very recently. It's a vacant property, you're not doing an eviction, borrower is deceased, you've got to work through the heirs or foreclosure and exit the property that way.   If your listener wants to go to my website, I've got a really good Jacksonville blog post, I've got a couple of blog posts about this deal. I still hold this rental today. And it was a non performing note that we purchased a few years ago. And I had no intention of exiting through the property or holding, holding the property as a rental property, but running the numbers, it just was too good to, to let go. so long story, but we, we   (Jamie Bateman) (34:22.51) ended up doing a deed in lieu of foreclosure actually in this case and got the property back and now it's a long-term buy and hold property for my own rental portfolio.   Yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense. There's always multiple ways to look at an investment, right? But it does sound, you know, it's not something that I've executed on myself, but it sounds like this is an active business, right? And that's why you've put together an income fund for people that want to get involved passively. as everybody knows, there's active investments, there's passive investments. If you're to do something active.   Maybe your returns are going to be a little bit better, but you're going to give up a lot of time and effort to get those returns. So if you want to go the passive side, if you're still full-time in your career, you're a full-time doctor or lawyer or whatever you are, these passive investments are the way to go without having to know every single detail about a new business.   Yeah, and I don't know if you can see this, but I wear this specifically for your for this   There it is. There it is.   (Jamie Bateman) (35:29.272) Passive income. You're absolutely right. You know, these gurus, some of the some of the note investing gurus out there will try to sell, you know, notes as passive. We have another blog post that talks about just the it's a spectrum, there's active and passive on either end. But at end of the day, if you're going to note investing in my world is very, very active. And we have a non performing note fund that's considerably more active than the performing note fund. So   You're dealing with foreclosures, bankruptcies, deed and loo, tracking delinquent property taxes. Do I have to physically go anywhere? No, but it is not passive. But that's why we offer the passive investment for people who, like you said, have maybe more capital than time or energy, and they want to put that capital to work.   That's right. There are certain gurus out there that, know, whatever it is that they are pitching, they tend to always pitch it as passive, even though it is an active business, that's money. Whether that's a mortgage note or I mean, people will pitch Airbnb short term rentals as passive. They're like, well, you can delegate this and you can, you know, you can automate that and there's software for all these things. But you still got to put all that stuff together.   Mm-mm.   (Seth Bradley) (36:48.396) You've still got to monitor all those things. still got to oversee all these different aspects of a business. And that's what it is. It's a business that you're running and it's not passive. Like, it's not, it's not. And it is on a spectrum. Some things are more passive than others, but when you're investing in, you know, as a passive investor into some sort of a fund or syndication, that's really leaning really far into the passive side.   Absolutely, 100%. And I'm, as you are, Seth, I'm, I assume you are, I know you're an active investor, but I do have passive investments myself in other, other funds, other note funds, and, and my own, my own note funds as well. And so nothing wrong with doing both, but I would say you need to be careful about, you know, you got to make a decision at some point, do you want to scale this thing and make this really a business? Or do you do you are you satisfied with?   potentially a little bit lower return and you are giving up some control but much, you know, much fewer headaches and just a lot less work.   Right. Yeah. And a lot of, you know, lot of the listeners are high income earning professionals. So they've already dedicated, put a lot of time and effort into being able to earn this much money from their W2. And that's probably your best bet, to be honest with you. I've been there. I was in those shoes. You're probably better off putting your head down and like, let's grind for a few years. Let's not spend every single dollar that we make on all the new stuff on a new car every two years or every year.   in a bigger house that you don't need. Like, let's set aside some of that and invest it passively. And then maybe one of those will stick. Maybe one of those passive investments will be a mortgage no fund where you're like, man, I kind of like this business. I like the sound of it. I've learned about it. And then you start maybe progressing on the active side and maybe that takes over. And you want to get into that as a business, as an entrepreneur. But a great way to kind of dip your toe in the water is to become a passive investor. That's the way that I did it in the,   (Seth Bradley) (38:53.186) multifamily syndications. invested passively in a number of deals first and kind of learned about it, learned the ropes and I'm like, I can do this. And then that's when I made the transition.   Yeah, definitely. It really comes down to what your goals are and what your situation is, for sure. I'll say I was too passive initially when I went into notes, because personally, just don't... You were probably a little better student, Seth. Not that I was a bad student, I invest... Unless I'm actively investing, I'm just not going to learn a lot. So the reality is, yeah, it's fine to learn about the asset class. You definitely should learn about the operator for sure.   you're putting capital with them, but you're not going to once you're getting your checks and your disbursements, you're not going to probably learn a whole lot about how to do that on the active side. And so that's what we're here for.   Yeah, yeah, it's more of like a spark of an interest, right? Like maybe you already have that spark and then you invest passively. Then you're like, OK, well, now I'm invested. Like, let me learn about this. And you have to have to actively go out there and educate yourself and network and talk to people that are in the business.   Definitely, 100%.   (Seth Bradley) (40:01.71) Alright man, before we jump into the Freedom Four, you have one last golden nugget for our listeners.   Oh, I would say within when it comes to investing, you know, take the long term view. Don't chase immediate returns. You know, I do think just, yeah, it's certainly we all want to make a million dollars tomorrow. But I think it's it's a play the long game when it comes to investing. I think that's critical.   Love that man. All right, let's jump into the freedom form. What's the best thing you do to keep your mind and body healthy?   Yeah, I mean, one thing that I instituted this year, actually, is breathwork. And it's, you know, it's so it takes 10 minutes. And per day for me, at least. And it's been phenomenal. And it's something that quite honestly, as a, as a, you know, athlete back in the day, or even in the military, I would have scoffed at something like this, to be honest with you, because it's just, you know, it's not manly or whatever. And it's like, it is phenomenal. So breathwork,   I mean, I do other things for sure. But that's certainly this year, it's been a game changer for me. I just feel like it resets my central nervous system. It just gets me focused. And I know there are other physiological benefits that you can ask Dr. Andrew Huberman or somebody else about.   (Seth Bradley) (41:26.153) Cool. I'll have to look into that. actually have it. mean, obviously everybody talks about it's a hot topic. Yeah. I haven't gotten into it. I haven't gotten into that plus like the cold plunges and that sort of thing. Yeah. But I really want to want to   So I don't know how much you can cut this out if we don't have time, but I had a, I'm just going to be, be open about this. I just had a, you know, in late December, I got a viral infection, like a neurovirus. And then I had, I had a, what I think was a pretty severe panic attack and it was super scary. And so that's why I started doing this. And somebody on my team actually sent me a, I guess we'll call it an implement or a tool that   I use for the breath work. It's blue. There's a Bluetooth connection to your phone and it's pretty cool. So it's structured and back to that discipline, right? But yeah, so it's, there was a reason I started doing it and it's, it's so accessible in five to 10 minutes a day. You can start doing it. So I recommend. Cool.   Thanks for sharing that man. With all your success, what is one limiting belief that you've crushed along the way and how did you get past it?   I think just, you know, being afraid to, you know, that you have to be perfect, right? So I used to be an editor back in the day. And so many things would just not get done or not get completed within our team, our organization, because it had to be perfect. And it's like, I think as I've progressed into more of the entrepreneurial lifestyle and   (Jamie Bateman) (43:02.35) is just it's not a it's not an option anymore. So yeah, I think just taking action has kind of overcome that limiting belief of chasing perfection.   Yeah, I can agree with you there. Done not perfect. Yes. My background as an attorney, mean, we're paid to be perfect. We can't make mistakes, especially in contracts and the way that we write things. But when you make that transition over to being an entrepreneur, there's too much to do to be perfect. You just got to get it done. Good enough.   Absolutely. Good enough. You have to be willing to accept that for sure.   What's one actionable step our listeners can do right now to start creating more freedom?   I'll use the military here, which is where I learned kind of reverse backwards planning, reverse planning. literally just, and I'm not going to tell you I'm perfect at this, but, you know, think about what, create a vivid vision for your life in the next three to five years, pick it, pick three years out from today. And what do you want your life to look like? And then backwards plan. And now I'm not saying you need to plan every minute of every day, but   (Jamie Bateman) (44:20.876) you can be that will that will increase the urgency, sense of urgency in your life and the intentionality of every every hour and every day because you realize this is doable, but I got to take ownership of my current situation if I want this to be the reality in three years. So I would say, create a vivid vision and and kind of reverse or backwards plan to get there.   Perfect, perfect. Last but not least, House Passive Income made your life better.   Yeah, I mean, I think in multiple ways, but a big one that stands out is giving me, I guess we'll call it margin to take some more risks on the entrepreneurial side. And because I do have alternative sources of income, passive income, it's allowed me that kind of mental and financial bandwidth or margin to maybe invest in a company that even if it   doesn't go perfectly, or doesn't go well, it's not profitable, that's okay. I still have that cushion for me and my family. that's, yeah, it's a huge, it's been a huge factor in that regard.   Yeah, absolutely. Game changer, man. It just changes your mindset, changes your life in so many ways. Jamie, this has been incredible, dude. You've got so much great content to share in your brain, man. You got to get out there. know you've got an awesome podcast that I was on, Adversity to Abundance. Everybody should check that out. Other than that, Jamie, where else can people find out more about you? Yeah.   (Jamie Bateman) (45:54.924) Just two things I'll mention very quickly. Literally got my book delivered today, like an hour before I hopped on here. It's from adversity to abundance. It is based on the podcast. So I encourage your listener to check that out from adversity to abundance is the book that's out. then labradorlending.com, L A B R A D O R.com is where you can check us out.   All right, man. Awesome. I'll drop all that in the show notes. Thanks again for coming on, brother.   Thanks for having me, Seth. This has been great.   (Seth Bradley) (46:26.978) Thanks for tuning in to Raise the Bar Radio. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear it. Keep pushing, keep building, and keep raising the bar. Until next time, enjoy the journey. Links from the Show and Guest Info and Links: Seth Bradley's Links: https://x.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.youtube.com/@sethbradleyesq www.facebook.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.threads.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.instagram.com/sethbradleyesq/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethbradleyesq/ https://passiveincomeattorney.com/seth-bradley/ https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/sethbradleyesq https://medium.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.tiktok.com/@sethbradleyesq?lang=en Jamie Bateman's Links: https://x.com/batemanjames https://www.facebook.com/batemanjames https://www.threads.com/@batemanjames11?xmt=AQF0nwaIL6JD_GK94lbTvHphHOmWwlUyt3TkeHLav-vXU_E https://www.instagram.com/batemanjames11/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-bateman-5359a811/ https://labradorlending.com/about/ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/from-adversity-to-abundance/id1618672867 https://open.spotify.com/show/7JjGWsKVzzEI8UwXP9GONZ https://www.youtube.com/@FromAdversity2AbundancePodcast

You know that awful feeling after a weekend of eating way off-plan? The shame, the self-blame, the "I'll start over Monday" drama? There's a better way to handle these situations - and it's something you already know how to do. In this episode, I share exactly what happened during my recent lake weekend where I ate way more chips, pizza, and treats than usual, and how I approached it using the same no-blame mindset we bring to M&M rounds. Instead of spiraling into shame, I got curious about what was really driving that eating. You'll learn why that "out of control" weekend eating usually has nothing to do with the food itself, and discover my simple process for understanding what really happened so you can course-correct quickly without the drama. I break down the real reasons physicians eat differently on weekends and share my personal "get back on track" strategy that doesn't involve cutting out food groups. This episode is perfect for any physician who's tired of beating themselves up after eating off-plan and wants to learn how to get back to healthier eating more quickly and easily.  

C'est Joffrey, auditeur fidèle de La Cohorte, qui m'a soufflé l'idée de lire l'étude “Emploi et revenus des indépendants – Édition 2025” publiée par l'INSEE. Le titre m'a séduite, mais très vite, j'ai déchanté : des données un peu anciennes, des catégories très larges, et surtout, un gros flou sur ce qu'on entend par “indépendant”. Dans cette MM, je m'interroge : - Est-ce qu'on est si difficiles à désigner ? - Et si c'était justement ça, le cœur du problème ? Et toi, tu te sens freelance, indépendant, micro-entrepreneur ? C'est quoi le mot que tu utilises pour désigner ton mode de fonctionnement ? (Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

Send us a textOur under-the-radar story of the week is asking about why a fan would grab a baseball from a kid at the game? Grabbing a hat away from a kid? What is wrong with #baseball fans?  It wasn't enough to have #Yankees fans thrown out of the playoff games last year for interfering with a play. Fans are behaving badly all over the place!  #Astros Framber Valdez behaved oddly when he seemingly crossed up his own catcher and hit the guy in the chest with a pitch. Bizarre! NL playoff teams seem pretty set. AL still has a WC race. AL East has tightened - will the #Bluejays give up the lead? They got swept in NY this weekend. Cal Raleigh has tied the all-time record for home runs in a season while catching with 42. Whose record did he tie? Our stat-of-the week - if you are a baseball fan how much baseball do you watch? Do you watch the entire game often? Sometimes? Never?  162 games is an awesome commitment compared to watching a team play 17 #NFL games.Intro & Outro music this season courtesy of Mercury Maid! Check them out on Spotify or Apple Music!  Please subscribe to our podcast and thanks for listening! If you can give us 4 or 5 star rating that means a lot. And if you have a suggestion for an episode please drop us a line via email at Almostcooperstown@gmail.com.  You can also follow us on X @almostcoop or visit the Almost Cooperstown Facebook page or YouTube channel.  And please tell your friends!Transcript:Just terrible because at least like when the right white socks were that awful a couple years ago There's an entertaining aspect to it. Mm-hmm. All right. I think we just did our sound check The Yankees actually are now two games back so remember we're starting mom's leaving we give it a pause we go You're not leaving right from the start. Are you? I Think it's easier if you leave from the startwhen you're out of here? No, she doesn't want to. Oh, I'm just saying, do we want to stop and start in the middle of this randomly? Because that's what's going to have to happen then. We're going to have to stop in the middle of the podcast. Mom leave. Why isn't she just going to leave and she's going to try to edit that out? Oh, you want to edit that part out? Right. That's why I just leave right now. That's why I'm saying it's much easier for you to start it. Leave. Have us do the whole podcast.then I just get up and pause it. And you just hit the stop And I hit the stop button when I'm done and then you can come back and finish all the editing later. Okay. think that's the easiest way to do it. Okay, yeah. And I'm actually already recording so I will, I guess, step out. Right. And, And you just have to then edit that. And it looks good. We're all nice and Right. I think this is way easier than trying to stop midstream to have mom leave at that point. I don't know about you. No, you're right, Okay. Bye-bye. I'm sorry about the timing.Almost Cooperstown (01:34.722)The Giants are catching up to the Reds and they're right behind the Mets. The Yankees swept the Jays. They're two games behind. This week in baseball, we're going to talk about the stat of the week, which is going to be about watching baseball and the under-the-radar story of the week. That's going to be why are fans behaving so badly? It's this week in baseball. Yoshinobu Yamamoto, as you well know now, almost had a no-hitter.Right down to his final out against the Orioles and you know, we thought he was going to be able to do it. And then boy, did that turn around. Right. Not just one swing of the bat, but what happened afterwards? He didn't just lose the no hitter. He lost the game. And that's the strange thing. So Jackson holiday hits the home run to break up the no hitter. And I think I'm not sure how many, but there's a lot www.almostcooperstown.com

This week we're celebrating 3 YEARS of the podcast!

Sconnie Jared joins the boys for this episode! They open up talking about how fun it would be to be a Picker. Burk drops something TOTALLY 90s on us. Old movies are coming back to theatres and Jared's school year is off to a hot start. Adam has a take on the Travis Kelce/Taylor Swift engagement. Shoutout delivery drivers, the USCG has recovered the mother load of drugs, and does your sweat have a scent? We discuss when the hay day of video games was. In the meat, Mm!, the boys do, quite possibly, the best topic there is to draft, and boy does it deliver. Love you all. Hut Hut!Intro Music "Upbeat" by Jon Luc Hefferman (No changes  were  made)  License Link    (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/legalcode) Outro Music    "Quittin' Time" by Patrick Lee (No changes were made) License Link  (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/legalcode)

Featuring an interview with Ms Charise Gleason, including the following topics: Progress and change in the management of multiple myeloma (MM) (0:00) Patient- and disease-specific factors guiding therapeutic decision-making for newly diagnosed MM (5:11) Role of anti-CD38 antibodies in the management of MM (12:14) Emerging treatment options for smoldering myeloma (23:08) Optimizing long-term outcomes for patients with MM (25:38) Tailoring therapy for older adults and patients with preexisting comorbidities (29:59) Case: A woman in her early 80s with newly diagnosed transplant-ineligible MM who experienced a complete response with first-line daratumumab/lenalidomide and low-dose dexamethasone (34:34) Case: A man in his early 60s with progressive back pain from standard-risk MM who experienced a complete response with daratumumab with lenalidomide/bortezomib/dexamethasone (42:05) Building therapeutic relationships and integrating holistic care in oncology practice (47:13) NCPD information and select publications

LinksMutant Metals Website: https://mutantmetals.com/MM on Rogue: http://bit.ly/4lY54SsGet HGC Tix: https://bit.ly/3IHA23gChapters00:00 The Partnership with Rogue03:49 Innovations in the ARC Product Line10:46 The Evolution of Product Development17:55 Challenges of Intellectual Property25:45 Transitioning the Business Model34:39 Future Directions and Collaborations41:18 The Blurring Lines of Competitive Advantage45:09 Navigating the AI Landscape and Personal Challenges48:11 The Complexity of Innovation and Idea Ownership52:03 The Challenges of Intellectual Property in a Competitive Market58:17 The Need for Systemic Change in Idea Protection01:02:59 Building Relationships and Community in the Industry

Featuring an interview with Prof Xavier Leleu including the following topics: Introduction: Historical treatment advances in multiple myeloma (MM) (0:00) Contemporary treatment for patients with newly diagnosed MM who are eligible for transplant (13:18) Prognosis and life expectancy for patients with MM (19:39) Mechanistic differences among anti-CD38 monoclonal antibodies (27:05) Routes of administration of anti-CD38 monoclonal antibodies (30:21) Background and treatment of smoldering myeloma (41:05) Treatment for older patients with newly diagnosed MM who are not eligible for transplant (46:41) NCPD information and select publications

Here we are for episode 786! In which we catch up with DJ Starsage and his new co-host Matt Burlingame for a review of the 7th season of Matinee Minutiae(2024-2025). What vintage movies and TV shows will they have covered this season? Our next episode, #787 sees a poison pen writer targeting Hubert Gentry and causing all manner of surprise!  Do join us! Email us at shyyeti@yahoo.co.uk if you have comments - you can even send a sound-file and I'll include it. The music is by Shy Yeti, Muffleyontour, Luca and Udio. Sound effects by Paul C and Soundbible. Logo by Owen O and Shy Yeti. All clips from MM are Copyright MM. All other content is Copyright Paul Chandler, 2025. Episode 786 was recorded on the 25th August 2025, with clips from the episodes released across season 7!

Kiera and Kristy talk listeners through the patience of the hiring process, with specific attention to understanding training capacity, establishing onboarding expectations, utilizing available resources — and what to do when you do all this already, and it still doesn't seem to work. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   Kiera Dent (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team Listeners. This is Kiera and today's an awesome day. I'm so excited. We have the one and only Trouble Hunting Kristy on the podcast today. I call her the truffle hunter because she finds all the money in the practices. Like Kristy, I don't know if you've looked at the stats, but you are rivaling me on the amount of production you're bringing into practices, which I think is a huge shout out to you. Kristy's one of our incredible consultants. So Kristy, with that intro, how are you today?   Kristy (00:27) doing wonderful. Thank you.   Kiera Dent (00:29) Good.   Yeah, of course. I feel like I need to get like a good nickname for you. So I've been like, clicking Kristy, but it's like, that's not what I'm going for. I'm going for like hunting Kristy, but I need like something. So if anybody out there can think of it, like in my mind, Kristy sits there. I don't know. It's a really funny image I have of you, Kristy. I see you like with your little shovel. You're like digging for the gold and the practices. You're like, I'm going to find it. It's like sleuth status Kristy.   So if anybody has a great nickname, send it on over. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. I'm always here for good nicknames. So, Kristy will find one for you. You know, here we go. But Kristy, we've been working on some practices together and ⁓ just like in general consulting, I think there's some fun things. And right now I think it's like, what do you do when you can't hire team members? I think hiring like hygienists for an office, the hiring climate is really tricky. And I think we've been coming up with some good ideas.   Kristy (01:01) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (01:23) that might be really fun to dig into if you're down with that today.   Kristy (01:26) Love it, absolutely.   Kiera Dent (01:29) Awesome. All right, Kristy. So with practices, I were pretend I'm your office and I'm like, hey, Kristy, I need to hire, but I can't hire. Like what's step one, two, three? Where do we even start to find these people? Because I think this happens in almost every single practice. I've said it before in our company. Like how do we break beyond that to help offices really find some people? Because you had an office that like could not find anybody. And now they're onboarding three people in one moment. Like it's pretty incredible how we went like   the swing and the shift. So how do we get to that other than just having patience through the process?   Kristy (02:03) Yeah, well, I think there's multi steps to it. But first, I think we have to take a look at ourselves and figure out, are we the type of person that likes to train people or not? Right? Because if I truly am not a person that likes even training people, our avenue may look a little bit different than ⁓ if I really enjoy developing and coaching them up, if you will.   So first there's that step, if you will. And then I think the next step Kiera is, I get my doctors and teams brainstorming. What attributes are you trying to find within this person? What do they need to possess as a person, personality wise? And what skills are you looking for them to possess?   Kiera Dent (02:31) Okay.   Mm-hmm. Yeah, because I love that you actually brought up do I want to train and develop somebody and then who are we looking for because I think Sometimes people like know thyself and be free I think is the best way to phrase that I am someone who we used to try and hire consultants and train them up and honestly we did a dang good job, but I got to a level as the company grew where I'm like   We just need people who are already expert consultants that can come in at the level that we need. And so even though I might love to develop people, I think also looking at the size of your practice to see, is this a position that we have the space to grow them? Like if I'm a brand new practice owner, trying to grow and develop an office manager, probably not a great idea. Like that's hard. And that person also, you have to look at too, the ROI of this position that, well, I might not feel like I can afford it.   they're actually going to bring money like a very experienced office manager who knows how to bill and knows how to close cases. Even though they're very expensive with air quotes around it because you're brand new will pay undue dividends. Just like when I hire, I remember hiring my first treatment coordinator. I looked at her in the interview and I was like, listen, her name was Kristen. I still remember this. And I'm like, Kristen, I begged our doctor to like stamp off and let me hire you, but you have three months to prove yourself. Otherwise I have to fire you. Like   literally can't afford you for three months beyond this. So, but you should. I mean a treatment coordinator should be putting money on our books. Kristen was amazing. She paid for herself ten times over but it's that like risk too. So, when you look at this of do we have the time to train them? Do I have the skill set to train them? And is our business like for us? Training consultants right now does not make sense. I can't teach a consultant.   how to run a $6 million business that sells to a DSO and get them trained up to that level of expertise. That's something we've outgrown the training space. So now we need to bring in expert consultants that have been there, done that, done that successfully rather than trying to convince them. So I think it was a really solid point you had on that. But Kristy, what happens when you as a consultant know that this doctor could train someone? So for example, like a dental assistant, like we could train them.   but the doctor maybe just doesn't want to, but they don't really have the funds to pay for the higher level. especially like a dental assistant. I'm like, dental assistant is not necessarily gonna put money on my books. They might make me move faster if I have a highly trained one. Like that is, it's nice to have, but what do you do on that type of a practice that like you as a consultant are looking at the numbers and like, maybe we should try to train this person up. What are your thoughts on that?   Kristy (05:34) Yeah, well, to back up, think speaking to what you were talking about is what's the end result we're looking for and within what timeframe, right? Because again, realistically, if we need, if we're a startup and we need butts in the chair, we've got to be producing. We don't have time to train someone up, right? And if a doctor isn't really that great at it,   we've got to find different solutions for acquiring that person. And I think reaching out to your team members to find ⁓ their resources, who do they know? Who can we tap in that maybe they know and worked with and has been successful, right? And bring them on. But also I do believe we have to have a good onboarding process with expectations. You know, what by when and set them out.   not just for the person coming on, but for team members to enroll them in helping them too.   Kiera Dent (06:38) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. Kristy, brilliant point on that of like onboarding expectations. What results do we want by when? And I think that also is probably like the pivotal piece when we're looking at this of what is our result? When do we need it by? That way we can see like who should I really hire of all my candidates? And then I loved how you said like, let's figure it out. You and I were in a practice together and we were like, okay, what sets us apart? Why should people want to work with us? And then who do we want to hire?   and this office, they like run on roller skates. So I'm like, put that in the ad, say like, we run fast and hard. We don't want people that like, if you don't love spinning around like 50 plates going in the air, this is not the place for you. And it's been crazy, because like, that really does speak to, now the person who wants that is going to come rather than just hoping and praying. ⁓ But Kristy, what do you do like this office?   The one I'm thinking of this doctor, it would, it just like the cards were falling left and right. Like every time we'd get on a call, was another team member was gone. And just so you know, this is not just isolated to this doctor. Kristy and I have seen this over our careers. Like this happens. It just comes in waves. And then we're like, we sit here and giggle empathetically. It's like, gosh, like this is just so frustrating. And it's like a giggle of like, I don't know what else to do. I'm either going to cry or I'm going to laugh with you. So like, let's choose the laugh and figure it out. What do you say to those offices? Like when it feels like,   Okay, I'm putting the ads out. I know who I want. I've got my onboarding expectations. Like I literally can't find anybody. What do you do in that spot? Or like where should they even go? So first of all, I guess question A is where should we be posting these ads? What can we be doing to hire? So all of our fishing rods are out there. And then part B will be like, what do we do when all fishing rods are out there, but we're just not getting bites? So where do you recommend fishing rods should go to find people?   Kristy (08:08) Yeah.   Yeah, well first off with your team, who do they know? Who can they reach out to? What are the resources they have? Also schools in your area, know, they may have contacts, not necessarily new grads, because this doctor didn't need a new grad for sure, but they might have relationships still with part of their ⁓ alumni, if you will.   and or lists of their names that they could reach out, you could solicit, you just never know. And I don't mean solicit in a bad way, because there could be people that are out there working, but aren't happy where they're at and are looking for something a little bit different. Or they're happy but want growth opportunities, you know? So again, pull your resources, look at your teammates, and don't think just my assistants. It could be an admin team member, it could be a hygienist that worked   great people before. ⁓ The other areas, obviously, if I wasn't looking for somebody that was hugely experienced and I had the ability to train, I like looking at restaurant servers or you find people that have great customer service and are willing to go the extra mile. I love dangling a carrot out there and   not only dangling the carrot, like promoting them as well. Like, hey, you are a fantastic server. If you know any friends that are just like you, have those qualities and are looking for a career, I would love, you know, to have you give them my card. And sometimes you'll do that and they'll look at you and go, well, why not me? You know, and you just found someone. So.   Kiera Dent (10:17) Exactly.   Kristy (10:20) Those are a couple avenues. know you have some as well. ⁓   Kiera Dent (10:24) Yeah, Kristy, I love that you talk about that. And I love that you're   scrappy like this. And if you're hearing Kristy's voice, Kristy loves where she's at. She loves, like, I just feel the love and compassion and just like helping team members feel that. And I think when you can convey that, it really is an easier path to get people to want to work with you. ⁓ dentistry is so small and I feel like we're a nice patchwork quilt where we're all somehow connected. Like we have the oddest family tree where every single person, I mean, Kristy and I,   Kristy's like, hey, I met you a few years ago. And I was like, this is really funny. I literally have an email from you in my inbox, but yet our worlds came back around a few years later. So just remembering like we all, and once you start brainstorming with your team, people are usually like, my gosh, I know this person or hey, I live next door to a hygienist. Let me ask them or hey, what about this person? And so I agree, Kristy, like the power of networking. And like, I remember we went to, I was in a drive-through and there was this girl who was like,   amazing at customer service. It was at a fast food restaurant drive through and I just handed my business card to her and was like, girl, you're incredible. Like if you're ever looking for something or know someone who's just like you, have them call us. And this girl did call me like it's wild Shelby, who if you've met her in our company, literally my next door neighbor, she wanted my plants and knocked on our door. So look and hunt for good people all the time and always, always, always be on the hunt. I think let's not get ourselves into these pickles where we meet people.   but let's always be recruiting, always be looking for great people. And then of course I'm here for like writing really awesome ads. So we love using a company called Ava HR. We have a promotional code through Dental A Team. I've negotiated down to get you the best pricing, but you can post one ad and it will like, you can post how many ads you want and it's just one monthly fee. So I'm really big also though of like, this is where I put my fishing bait. I'm out there putting like a bunch of different titles to see who's applying to my different ads.   based on the title because just like podcast episodes, it's interesting. Shelby and I went and pulled like the most downloaded ones and it does not matter the content, it matters the title. And so same thing with your ads, like yes, that's going to attract somebody. So put really awesome titles and see like we have tried different ones to pull in consultants and the one that works best is usually like a regional manager or a consultant, like looking for something different. That one tends to pull me my best candidates, but I've tried office manager. I've tried treatment coordinator. I've tried like.   but until you know a bait works in your area, you've got to try them out. So that's why I really love that. Talk to your reps. Reps are connected. Doctors talk to people on the golf course. Like it's shocking how many dentists have come from golf course conversations that I've seen looking in your area. And just like you said, service industry, some of my absolute best office managers are bankers. So they're coming from banking and some of our best schedulers actually came from like tanning salons or hair salons that were super busy. Lots of high-end customer service moving really quickly. ⁓   but those are some of the best places. So I think like, get your fishing poles out there, start looking and then like, don't stop. Don't just like throw the fishing pole out there and hope and pray that the bait stays. Watch it, constantly update it, stay top of mind with people because just because you had a conversation with your team today doesn't mean they remember in a week from now. So making sure it's like top of mind, this is who we're looking for. If you know anybody, you see anybody and it's crazy because all of a sudden.   like little bubbles just show up in your world and people show up. So I think brilliant ideas on that, Kristy. So then part two of that question was what happens? Like, I honestly think it's just patience. So it's okay to just say patience. Like people want immediate results. And so what do we do in that interim when it feels like we're getting no bites, we're doing everything, we're talking to people. Well, A, it's cause your pipeline wasn't built. So.   Just once you hire people, they'll stop doing all these things you were doing to find people. So like, we'll just put that plug in there. But what do you do? What do you tell clients when they just feel like they cannot find anybody? So they're getting desperate. They're getting snootier. Like, sorry, doctors, you do get grumpy when you don't have team members. I do too. So it's not just you. I do too. What do you do to keep their mindset or what can they do to bridge that gap that you've seen work really well for your practices?   Kristy (14:36) Yeah, two things and I had a tie in to the last thing we were talking about one other Avenue that has worked really well for us. Doctors also kind of dig their heels in and resist but make a video. Doctor make a video, right? And if you guys have local Facebook groups that are for dental, post the videos on there. Have the doctor speaking with you know, hey, if you like this, come work with me.   Kiera Dent (14:44) yeah.   my god, yes.   Kristy (15:05) My team, we want you, you know? We've seen it work.   Kiera Dent (15:08) Hmm.   We have seen her and Kristy, great job on that. And doctors like, but I'm not like out there. Like, I don't like to myself out there. I'm like, good, post just that. Like who you are is going to attract the person that you want. And notice this, even Kristy and I on this roof, like we podcasting right now. We work together with the offices. Even right here, we're spurring different ideas, talking to each other. And this is what happens in your team. It's like popcorn. So it's like, what idea could we have here? my gosh, that's going to lead to this idea. wait, what about this?   my gosh, what if we did this like hygienist? I have an office and they literally do CE for hygienist in their area. You could do CE for doctors in your area. And then at the end, you just say like, Hey, we're always looking for hygienist. If you know anyone that like would love to be a part of what we're doing, we'd love to meet them. That office literally gets like three or four hygienist resumes at the end of every one of their CE conferences because people want to be with them. So it's again, like where are these people? How can we attract them? But right here, Kristy and I were like, cool, we got that.   And they're like, wait, this is another idea. wait, what about this? I just realized like once you start brainstorming, more ideas come from you. And I think let's not look like, let's ask better questions. Questions of like, where do these people hang out? Where does my avatar hang out? Where's like another cabbage patch I could go find that maybe we haven't thought of that might be like out of the box thinking. Where is this profile, like personality type, not profiling, but personality type. Where does this person hang out? Where do they like to be?   where can we go for this? That's what I'm gonna start to like think about. That's where the brainstorming happens. And this is where I feel like you are able to win when other people are just posting an Indeed ad and walking away. You're literally got like 10 fishing lines out there. Other ways you can do it that way too. So kudos on the brainstorm session, Kristy. I love it.   Kristy (16:52) Yeah.   Sounds good. And to your point, if they're not finding who they want, I like to redirect them and focus on what can we do right now while we're looking for this person. And like you say, continuously looking. think about the tools you have within your practice. Like, could we use Mr. Thirsty and maybe not have to have the extra set of hands right now or, you know.   I mean, there's just so many different solutions. Is there a hygienist maybe that would be willing to come work as an assistant or, you know, we've got to be creative.   Kiera Dent (17:25) And I think,   yeah, and Kristy, when you said that, like, I think it's important not to say no, right? It's very easy to give that pushback, like, no, I don't want to do this. I understand, and Kristy understands that you want the most perfect person to land in your lap. Well, guess what? You still have to do dentistry, and we still have to get through this until that perfect person shows up. And also, I think, Kristy, like, we can use a Mr. Thirsty. We could use a hygienist. We could have someone flex up front.   Like whatever it is, what that also does is it buys you time so you don't make a desperate hire. And I think that's one of the biggest pieces we're trying to help you see is then you buy yourself some time. I know you and I were talking to an office and you brought up the great idea of virtual assistants. Like virtual assistants, they're not long-term. They can be long-term. They can bridge gaps. They could answer phones. They could do billing for you. Things that you could outsource that maybe then would like alleviate the load. We had an office hand turn. You and I were like, all right, well, why don't we have a virtual assistant do?   all these pieces for you while we're waiting for your front office team member. I thought it was one of the most brilliant, think kudos to us. Like let's just like brush our shoulders off here. But that's like where I think a consultant and a guide can help you see. But I think you also have to realize like you're in a pickle right now. So let's get out of that pickle and make it to where we can be more creative. Any other thoughts you have on that, Kristy?   Kristy (18:47) No, I agree with you. think because even when we're talking virtual assistant, one of one of our teammates had a virtual assistant. Literally, they had no admin team member and that person was sitting on a screen greeting people when they walk in. And when we mentioned that the team's eyes were like, what? I'm not gonna lie. I kind of like mind blown to but think about it. That is still better.   than having to put a sign up and say, hold, because there's nobody here to greet you. At least they have a live person. It might be on a screen, not in flesh, but they're there and acknowledging them and greeting them. So truly getting resourceful, if we will, and like you said, thinking outside the box. And it doesn't have to be a long-term solution. It's an intel solution.   Kiera Dent (19:39) And I love that you said   it's an until solution because when we have that, like it's so brilliant because now I, what I love is this then opens up your, I'd say like treasure box of options that you have for the future. Like, great, I know I could do a VA. Great, I know I could do a billing outsource. Great, I know I could do a Mr. Thirsty. Like it's not optimal, but then also what this does is you're no longer handcuffed and shackled to team members being there because team members will come and go forever. That is the reality of owning a business.   We hope and pray they'll stay with us forever, but guess what? Like that's just not the reality of life. And that's also not the flavor of business either. And so with that, I think it teaches you resourcefulness. It teaches you what things you can do. It's kind of like, I always say, man, if I have to, I know I can scrap down to top ramen and like I can live so cheap because I did it before. And I think this just allows you to have that flexibility and creativity. And I think what I would like people to know, and I know Kristy's on the exact same pages,   Kristy (20:25) you   Kiera Dent (20:35) making sure we use these resourcefulness so we don't accidentally desperate hire. Like truly, it can be so tempting to just hire someone to make the pain go away, but it's choose your heart. Is it harder to like deal with this resourcefulness? like agreed when I heard about that person on the screen, I was like, you know what? But hey, it's 2025, everybody's on virtual. Like it's not that weird for people to have like maybe a little off, but I mean, Kristy and I hang out on virtual all day long. I don't see a single team member 90 % of the days that I work.   Kristy (20:55) Thank you.   Kiera Dent (21:04) that it's not as weird as we might think it is, but I think what it does is it forces the discipline so that way you can truly wait for your ideal hire rather than being desperate, hiring somebody, having to terminate them or they're not the right fit. I think it just allows you almost like a longer rope before you're like at the end of your rope as well. So I think it was brilliant, Kristy, great ideas on that.   Kristy (21:25) ⁓ thank you. ⁓   Kiera Dent (21:27) Of course. So with   that, think that's our that's kind of our wrap for you guys of what do I do? How can we get this? If we can't hire maybe helping you think of outside the box, how can we bring these people in? What do we need to do as far as looking at our practice, looking at what we want to bring into our practice, getting resourceful on where we put our fishing rods. And then how can we like do this, like beginning and ending to make sure that we're really in the right spot for this practice. So, Kristy.   love consulting with you. I love what you do for our clients. I love that you bring so much positive energy. I love that you think outside the box. And I think that that's why you can like, this is why I think you find money in practices because you're like, all right, it's not on this avenue. It's going to be over on this avenue. If it's not on this avenue, it'll be over here. But I think that same resourcefulness goes into how you consult. And I just want to say kudos to you and appreciation for being on the podcast and also serving so many of our clients as well.   Kristy (22:21) It's an honor. Thank you.   Kiera Dent (22:23) Of course. All right. For all of you listening, if you're struggling with hiring or you're struggling with motivation or you're struggling with all the things that business owners deal with, reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com or go click on schedule a call. The call is so fun. We literally show you gaps in your practice, things that you're doing really well and make it to where you can truly sleep better at night. And if we can help you, amazing. We'd love to help you. Otherwise just come like figure out where your blind spots are, but reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Diana introduces Randy Goodwin, a deliverance minister with over 20 years of experience in helping survivors of Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) and occult practices find freedom and healing through Jesus Christ. Diana and Randy discuss the complex nature of SRA, how individuals get involved, and the spiritual warfare involved in the healing process. Randy emphasizes the importance of sincerity and free will in seeking deliverance, while sharing insights on the tactics of the enemy and the transformative power of prayer and scripture. The episode also highlights the significance of professional counseling and offers resources for those looking to break free from the spiritual bondage of SRA. 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast 00:45  753 Academy 01:43 Introducing the Series on Cults 03:23 Meet Randy Goodwin: Deliverance Minister 03:57 Randy's Journey into Deliverance Ministry 08:20 Understanding the Occult and SRA 11:49 The Impact of Media and Programming 16:03 Hope and Deliverance for SRA Victims 18:51 The Process of Deliverance 22:35 Critique of a Podcast on Demon Possession 23:11 Pentecostal Perspectives on Demons 24:04 The Deceptive Nature of the Enemy 27:10 Prayers for Protection and Sincerity in Faith 29:17 The Importance of Sincere Repentance 31:59 Healing from Trauma through Faith 35:32 Resources for SRA Survivors 38:17 Final Thoughts and Encouragement Bio: Randy Goodwins deliverance ministry, SRA Survivor ministry has helped people suffering from the effects of SRA Survivors, witchcraft, deprogramming, trafficking survivors, the occult, rejection, depression, physical illnesses, molestation, verbal and emotional abuse, pain/trauma, DID/MPD, schizophrenia, voices (Dissociate Identity Disorder/Multiple Personality Disorder/MPD/DID/BPD/ADHD/OCD/CDD) and many more. I help SRA survivors and those in the Occult get free and serve Christ.  Email deliverancenw@gmail.com website https://randygoodwin.org/ Link Tree Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Randy Goodwin  [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello everyone. Welcome to the podcast. We do have a great guest for you, as always for you. I'm very grateful that you are here today with me. I'm also thankful for our sponsor 7 5 3 Academy that we have here in the local Phoenix area. Their mission statement is we create the capability to deal with anything life may [00:01:00] bring. We believe in life, success, and good health. We believe students that learn the 7, 5 3 philosophy through self-defense training, gain the perseverance to overcome any challenge in life while strengthening the body, mind, and spirit. Our academy is a supportive and inclusive environment where we provide the training for what comes next. So that is click on the link in the show notes for more information, 7 5 3 academy.com. Their email is info at 7 5 3 academy.com . And tell Coach Eric and Coach David that I sent you. So now onto show. I am going to be doing a series on cults, and thought that I would start with Randy Goodwin, who reached out to be a part of the show. So I will say that SRA is Satanic ritual abuse. Randy [00:02:00] Goodwin is a deliverance minister specializing in SRA trauma, SRA survivor therapy, survivor resources, occult deliverance deprogramming, and a deliverance prayer. Those who have suffered from spiritual bondage. With over 20 years of experience in ministry, Randy has helped hundreds of SRA survivors, traffic survivors, and individuals seeking OC cult freedom, while lasting freedom from spiritual abuse. His approach is rooted in the belief that Jesus Christ has the power to break every chain and set people free. From the spiritual warfare, holding them back through personalized counseling. So, needless to say, this is going to be a dark episode. So be mindful of that. We're gonna define what an, what the occult is, mind [00:03:00] control, trafficking, and how to get out of all that. So I won't delay it any further. I hope that this episode is informative and helps. If not you, then somebody you love, to be free of occult practices. So here's my conversation with Randy Goodwin. Please welcome my guest today, Randy Goodwin. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And, we're gonna do our best here to get what we need across and hopefully we can help somebody in the process. Yes, absolutely. I already gave the warning about this is going to be about a dark topic, the occult, to be sensitive about. If that is your background and might trigger you, then maybe come back later if you need to or take a break. Randy, let's talk a little bit [00:04:00] about your background and how you got into this line of work, because we don't grow up saying, oh, I wanna be a cult d programmer. You know what I mean? I had pretty much a normal life like everybody else did. You know, you go through teens, you get rebellious, you go off and do this and do that. And so you fast forward into my adult life and at the end, I don't wanna say the end of my adult life, but, about eight years ago, I just got to the point where I knew I had stuff in me. And what I mean by stuff, I knew I had demons. 'cause otherwise you wouldn't be doing this, you wouldn't be doing that. This wouldn't be happening. And, you know, I got a laundry list, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. And so the. Best [00:05:00] thing you can do at that point, if you really want to be free, the starting place, if you really want God to come, the first thing that everybody has to do is just get on your knees with a humble heart and a true humble heart. You're not just saying, God, help me. Alright, then go off and get a cheeseburger. You gotta really be serious. Seek the Lord and you shall find him. Knock and the door shall be open. So how hard are you gonna knock? How hard are you gonna seek? Well, I was serious. I really was. And I told God I was. And so now after you say that to God, now we're gonna see what your actions are gonna do to see if you really mean it right. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So I sought out [00:06:00] people to help me sought out. A lot of people, talked to, a lot of people, finally got connected, you know, to a few people, and I had things removed from me. And let me tell you, when you get things removed from you, it feels like this. Ah, yes. Just, I just feel lighter, you know, you can just feel the lightness come off you, the heaviness, and you become mm-hmm. You become lighter. And so here's what's totally cool. Once this stuff left, you know how we walk, how the scriptures say we have blinders on our eyes. And we can't see because we might have a log or something. So you can't really, yeah, you can't talk to anybody else. 'cause you got this, you know, the entire house on your eye. Right. Not just one log the entire house. So, but once you get some of this stuff lifted [00:07:00] and the blinders removed, you can see a little more clearly. Mm-hmm. And that's what happened to me. Some blinders came off and anybody listening, that's exactly what can happen to you too. 'cause God wants that to happen to you. So these, some blinders came off me and I just sat there and I go, okay, I get it now. Okay. I can see what you're telling me. Wow. It took this, this long for me to hear you to say that one little sentence. Yeah, that's right. It has been so. You know, then I just knew that, I knew in my knower, this is how I wanna make other people feel. And so I just went down the path I've never looked back and this is what I'm supposed to do. And God has taken me into a certain little area where he wants me to stay. That's how I got into it. That's what motivates me. And this is why I do it. 'cause I want other people to feel this way too. Absolutely. It all starts with our, humble [00:08:00] heart. And then being serious, you gotta be serious. Mm-hmm. And if you have to seek out certain people. Yeah, then it's okay. And God will connect you to the correct person. So I wanted to ask, for our, listeners, some different terminologies. Maybe they won't be so familiar with. What is the occult actually and Satanic ritual abuse and how do you actually get involved with something like that? Are there like gateways to satanic abuse? So, SRA is short for Satanic ritual abuse and the occult and satanic ritual abuse kind of go hand in hand. It's like a hand in glove because everybody that's in. And they're involved in an SRA scenario, then they are highly involved in the occult. For one, [00:09:00] you're born into the family. You just don't decide. One day I think I wanna be an SRAs, survivor, so you pick up the yellow pages. No, you're born into this and you're chosen, you're given over even before you're, even before you're conceived. And when you're, conceived, there's certain things that happen within the mother's womb where they amplify this, concreteness to make you in this circle. And then when you're born, you're born with these entities. Here's the thing, it's not their fault. They're victims. Mm-hmm. I always say this, if the enemy can, he will. He's looking for, he's just looking for an opportunity. I don't leave, I don't like the word of legal right. Or open doors, you know, we all use those terms, which there, there's truth in those terms. But I like the word opportunity. The enemy's an opportunist. If he can find a way, he will find a way. And in, in a family, [00:10:00] in an SRA family, there's always a coven involved and there's certain, people within the family who are in this coven, the parents and the grandparents. And there'll be a bunch of, other people involved also. And all these other people will, throughout this victims life where they will ensure their, instability and ensure the fragmentation of that individual. And once they can do that, then it's really difficult for that individual to get free. Not impossible, but difficult. So the occult and the Satanic ritual abuse, they go hand in hand. They're like a hand in the glove because they're, they feed off of each [00:11:00] other and it's usually like a satanist family. And these families can go way, way back. It's just, they did it, parents did it, their parents did it, and so on and so forth. And it's just what they do and their motivation for doing this is all pure selfishness. Of course, it's, it's all about power because when they can inflict things on an individual entities can come into that individual, which they get higher ranking entities into them, which brings them up in the rankings in the occult, makes 'em a little stronger in, you know, Satan's army. And that's their motivation. Mm. Sad but true. That's kind of the, just of the whole thing, you know? Uh, so you are about the same age, it looks like, and you remember back in the eighties, the satanic panic and that, the church would [00:12:00] claim that, if you go trick or treating or you watch certain things, or you have cabbage patch dolls or you watch the Smurfs, that mm-hmm. That, that is all a gateway into the occult and Satan having power over you. And do you remember that time period? And is there any legitimacy to that? I remember that time period, and I remember the time period before that. Yeah. Okay. So there's a lot of legitimacy to that. And it's no different than it is today. Remember when, TV first started? They call 'em a television program. Well, it is a program. It's a program to program you. And that's where they got that term from. You get a lot of cartoons, and of course we know about all the, you know, the bad movies that are out there, all the, you know, the right horror movies or [00:13:00] slasher films or whatever. Yeah. We know there's all kinds of stuff in those. Okay. That's a given. But you could get even cartoons. If we can get you at a young age, then we can make you go off course. And if you go off course, then you're not gonna serve the truer God and Father when you get older. And if we can still instill something into the, the child's brain while they're sitting in front of the TV set, like very common today, then we can make that child go off course. And that's what they wanna do. And there's actual, programs that are written into these cartoons that do that. And it comes, from the ruling families and the people that control all the media. So there are some people that would probably fall for that type of programming, but others may not. Is there? Well, what it does, is just everything, is like line upon line and once one thing happens, it makes you just a little bit numb, just a tiny, tiny, tiny bit. [00:14:00] Then it keeps compounding and keeps compounding, and you do this year after year after year, and then the next thing you know, you're, you're off course. If the enemy can get you just see, like right now, if you can just get you just looking like this, just slightly off, he has success and so that's what the enemy wants and with the cartoons. And even like all the Marvel comics, all of them, every one of them, they're all based upon, demons. When those programs that they're actually written, that coded information will actually go into your brain and your brain will get a code inside it. And now your computer holds that information maybe a little deep, but it's just, it's just a way the enemy can make you go off course. Mm-hmm. And that's, we don't want that. And with SRA people, all of the, things that they have to [00:15:00] endure and all this stuff, it's a way to fragment them. And fragment their soul into all these parts. And basically it creates, inside them, it creates a web undetectable by most people. And most deliverance people will just chase and chase and chase, and then let's go around the same mountain and these people will never get free. Yeah. So that's the just of an SRA individual. You're gonna see a, you're gonna see an SRA person like, they'll be in grade school, they're gonna go to school, they're gonna attend school, and they'll get decent grades. Nobody will ever know anything else. It's a nice person, people like that person. But when they go home, things change. Now they have to endure and experience and go through all of this stuff that the family, gives them to separate all this stuff in their [00:16:00] soul, Now where does, the gospel come in, into play there? For example, if you were saved early in life, does that give you a protection against the occult influences? It does. But if you're born into one of these families, you're already given over. You've already crossed the line. Okay. But here's one good thing your free will is never 100% captured. Yeah. Well that's good. One, it's never 100% captured. Your free will. I mean, you may have all kinds of fear, pressure, threats, all this kind of stuff. And they may seem like they're just mountains, but your free will is still intact. You still can choose. Now, like I said, for an SRA person, it's super hard. Yeah, it's super hard to come out of this. But is it impossible? No, nothing's impossible with God. So you just take a [00:17:00] normal person like you were saying, and you raise up a child in the ways they should go, and when they're old, they won't depart from this. And you can pray, you can protect. But when we expose ourselves or we're standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, or we're somewhere where, okay, I shouldn't be here. But you stay anyway. Okay. Just out of embarrassment or whatever. Okay, now Mr. Opportunity pops up and if he can, he will. I always go back to that. You never underestimate the enemies lying capabilities. Right? He's had, we don't know how many years back to Adam and Eve, nobody knows exactly. I don't know how many thousands of years that was, but he's had that many thousands of years to learn human behavior. Yeah. Learn how we think, decide all these things. So he's learned a lot on how to be cunning and deceitful. It's really [00:18:00] important to make sure, you know, that we pray for our children every day. Yeah. And we put on the whole armor of God on ourselves, on our children every day. Especially in these times. Mm-hmm. I mean, these are so vulnerable times. And I say, never let your kids outta your sight. Ever. Not now. Yeah. Yeah. But there, there is hope for those generational curses that you've mentioned. There is a way of escape, and you do have a choice. There is. Even though all these things happen. You know, the SRA individual still can seek out help. I didn't say it was easy 'cause there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of threats, and so on and so on. But, if they want it bad enough, they will. So you walk us through, maybe somebody that you've helped, like what does that process look like to [00:19:00] where the person is reaching out for help? What is the spark there, and then how do you walk them through the way of escape how to get out of this thing? So, when I'm first contacted, I'll just send a quick email back. Do you feel you're an SRA. A person or someone that was raised in the occult, something like that. And they'll say yes. Then I'll say, okay, let's just meet just for a chat. Just, this is not a session, just a meet and greet. Mm-hmm. And I'm just gonna ask 'em a couple questions. I'm gonna see where they are, I'm gonna see how serious they are, and I wanna see if they're just there to kick the tires or if they're really serious. Mm-hmm. And motivated. You'd be surprised. Most people are just tire kickers really. They're just interested, weird stuff. They're just, yeah. They're just interested, you [00:20:00] know? It's very, very few that wanna stick with it and have the tenacity to follow through. So when I do get somebody. That's serious. Let's say, they are an SRA survivor, then we have specific prayers that we are gonna start with that it's gonna break things all the way back from the very start in very specific prayers. 'cause the Bible tells us to be specific in our prayers. Yes. So I have very specific prayers, and of course we're gonna do some renunciations and we're gonna do some basic things. Normally I'll spend about an hour-ish each time I meet with someone. And then we're gonna go in there because in an SA person, there is programming and this is what keeps all the trauma and all the stuff keeps it intact and it keeps it [00:21:00] hidden. There's hermetic seals over it, and a hermetic seal is like saran wrap over an incident or a ritual or vow oath and ceremony and all that stuff. They hermetically seal it so you can't see it. Can't find it. So we remove those and this programming that's involved in SRA people and those in the occult satanist families and all there's, things that are built that they create inside their soul and inside their mind. And it's layered. Once you pull that main string, then it all comes tumbling down and. Within two to four months, I can get somebody pretty well cleaned out. Doesn't take years to do this really doesn't take years. No, it's interesting. Yeah. I know most deliverance people will chase the traumas and the wounds and try to get those hell healed [00:22:00] up. That's great, but it's not going to, for an SRA survivor, it's not going to get them free. You'd just be going around the mountain like that. You have to get rid of that programming out of there. And so that's what we will do. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, the main thing is they have to be serious. have to be serious, and they have to be motivated. Then, you know, and with that, then we can move forward. Then we can, you know, get 'em cleaned out. Yeah. Throughout when Jesus was on the earth, people don't realize that he cast out demons a lot in the Bible. He did. I did. I was listening to a podcast, one that I really like. I won't say who it is, but mm-hmm. Ian, this guest did this whole story about demon possession and they left out completely Bible resources and what Jesus had done completely. And I sent him an email and I'm like, you really didn't do your research. You didn't even mention Jesus or all the [00:23:00] demons that he cast out and everything that went with that in the gospels. Jesus had encounters with demons all the time, and they had to obey. He did. He did. I get a lot of flack from the Pentecostals. Him right in the eyes. Okay. But he spoke to Satan while he is looking at Peter right in the eyes. And he said, get behind me Satan. Yeah. I wanna hear what the Pentecostal said. What were they saying to you? Okay. So, uh, the Pentecostal side were, are all about, quickly screaming and yelling, speaking in tongues and, going right after demons and all that. Yeah. They're a little, guess bringing attention to the demons. There's a demon behind every bush and Yeah. Something like that. And [00:24:00] they're very, quick to move, quick to speak, quick to act. And, but like I said, you have to remember the enemy is very cunning. I don't think we give the enemy enough credit for how deceptive and how, much of a liar he is because he's the father of all lies. Mm-hmm. That means he's, uh, that he's, no, no one better than him. You're not gonna outdo the guy. He wrote the book on lying. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then there's Jesus, and then there's Jesus who does water on water. Who does trample out those lies? He does. He removes 'em all. And the greatest gift of all is love. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause perfect love casts out all fear. And when there's perfect love in an individual, there's no fear in that individual. And fear is the basis. It's one of the number one things that the enemy uses [00:25:00] to deceive anybody. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. If he can just get in there in any way, any opportunity to deceive, he will. If he can. Well, look at the news now. All you have to do is watch the news, which is designed to induce fear in people and get people upset, even if it's, whether it's true or not depends on who you listen to. But I've seen that in my own home. Like they're freaking out. It's like, now hold on a minute. Calm down. Yeah. And it doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter if you're Republican or a Democrat. There's Right, there's still things that are said that you could be frightened from Yes. Yes. And that is definitely the enemy doing that behind the scenes. Yeah. Our enemy is not the person in front of us, it's the behind the scenes. Of course. A hundred percent. And the enemy will when he can get something in our soul. It all works in your [00:26:00] subconscious, and that's 90% of your brain. You know, we're talking right now in our 10% from the prefrontal cortex, but the 90% is where the enemy sets up camp. And he gets in there and hides. And if he has an opportunity to come in, he's gonna go in there hide and then try to camouflage it, you know, build things around it so you can't find it. So, let's just say somebody has a recurring dream, bad dream every once in a while. And it might be the same, might not be the same exact dream, but it sure could be, it could be, uh, centered around a theme. If you're having these dreams, you know, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. I dream about work almost every night. Okay. Maybe you could tell me what that means. Well, there could be some things , if you have a bad dream that comes up, there could be something that got in there that's [00:27:00] making, this bad dream come up. And when you're sleeping and the, during your subconscious, you know, the enemy can really attack you. There. Here's what I do personally every night, and I would encourage everybody to do this before you go to sleep. If you're married and you're a husband, that the husband should pray this prayer. If you're not married and you're the wife, then of course the wife should pray the prayer. Well, you wouldn't be a wife 'cause you wouldn't be married. You pray. Heavenly Father, I put the blood of Jesus over my entire soul, over my wife's soul and over my kids' soul as we sleep tonight and give us sweet sleep in Jesus' name and I'll praise you. That's what I pray every night that would encourage everybody to pray that prayer. Yeah, because it does help. It does. And then [00:28:00] after that, you pray this, say true Lord God. And Father, when I wake, I put the word of God before me and my family. For the entire day in Jesus name. So you are already putting out the word before you, before you even get up. Yeah. And those aren't very long prayers. I mean, doesn't take, they're not long prayers, doesn't take much. You see, that's a whole nother thing. Jesus talked to the Pharisees, you know, these are guys that are scholars. They knew of the first five books of the Bible, probably by heart. Yes. Okay. But we have to know him. And when we have that, we have that relationship with Christ. We can communicate, you know, as talking to our daddy, talking to our Heavenly Father. So if you really mean with your prayer, if you mean it, you don't have to have a lofty [00:29:00] prayer. You just have to be sincere. You have to be sincere. And you know what, when you're praying to God, hate to break it to you guys, but he knows if you're sincere or not. Yeah, absolutely. He knows if we're sincere, there's no, there's no cut in that one. Yeah. That's go, goes back to salvation when we get saved, because I came from a denomination that had altar calls all the time and you know, you think you were saved and then they have, you come up to the altar and pray to get saved, but they're just going through the motions because somebody told 'em to go up there and pray, or somebody gave them a guilt trip. They're going up there and they're, they aren't sincere. They don't know what they're doing up there. I was a missionary for 13 years, so Oh, wow. I'm familiar with knocking on doors and just pray this prayer repeat after me, [00:30:00] and they would just repeat after me, just so they'd get the door shut. And so I would leave. It goes back to salvation. You don't have to say some big fancy, long prayer. It's just the sincerity of your heart that you wanna be saved and you want Jesus to come into your life and, understand he died for you. And, absolutely. Yeah. We need him. Amen. And when I was talking about, SRA, people still have a free will. Mm-hmm. They, they still can reach out for help. That same principle stands true from what you just said. You go up for an altar call. Okay. We're gonna repeat a sentence. Okay. Great. repent. Jesus said, repent and follow me. Yep. Those are the two things he asked. Just repent and follow me. Yeah. Those two things. So if you're truly sincere about your altar call and your repentance, then [00:31:00] your life is gonna show it from that moment forward. And that's what Jesus means. Follow me. It's gonna hit you and you're gonna go, your life is just gonna start changing. It's gonna hit way down, and it's gonna mean something like it never has meant before. Amen to that. Yeah. Yeah. And so it. Our free will stands intact just for that simple out to call. Also, you know, I gave my life to Christ when I was 14 years old and it was a death of my grandmother. And I was just, really close to my grandmother and she passed and I just felt all alone. Aw. And there I was and I started bawling. I felt alone and afraid. I cried out to the Lord right then and there, and I asked him to come into my life and I meant it. Well, thanks. Yeah. And here I am, just a young man and I still mean it. Yeah. I was saved when I was 13, oh, nice. Got saved early in life, thankfully. Yeah. This [00:32:00] free will choice that we have. No matter what you've gone through in life, you might be somebody that, let's say you had a one time event violation from a family member. Well, that causes trauma. Yes. And that causes a forever bad memory and a thought that gets really lodged deep inside, you know? And you might feel, I just can't get past this. This is just too big for me to get past. I've prayed and prayed and prayed, and it just doesn't go away. Well, Jesus can, I know you've probably heard this a million times, but if Jesus. Is allowed to that spot, then he can get that healed. Mm-hmm. If, if he's allowed, I go back to our free will choice if we allow him to do that. And not just pray a prayer, not [00:33:00] just, read a prayer. We have to submit to him and his, perfect will. And he can touch that and he can heal it. Once Jesus touches, uh, wound, like maybe like a one time event, you're still gonna remember it. Okay. You're still gonna remember the event, but it's just not gonna like sting. Hurt like it did. Right. And that's where the enemy lives is on all the emotions and the feelings. That's what he attaches to. And Jesus can take away the enemy from those feelings and emotions if we, if we allow him. Mm-hmm. That's, that's pretty hard sometimes though, yeah. We experienced something like that. A one time trauma or maybe a series of, of things, you know, you lived a, a normal life, but we had a, I don't know, a bad neighbor or a bad relative or some [00:34:00] or something. Getting past that. Now you're an adult. It can be humbling, to. You know, cry out to the father or even tell somebody else about it and talk to 'em about it. And that would make you a victim if you did experience that. But see, here's, here's the thing about being a victim and being perpetrated upon. Being perpetrated makes you a victim, but there was still sin involved. The scriptures tell us to confess our sin one to another, so Jesus. Can heal us. And that's really, see it's easy to do to God, say, oh Lord, forgive me of all my sin. But you know what, it's hard to tell what happened to another person Yeah. This happened, five years ago or 20 years ago, and I need to share it with somebody. That's hard. That's hard to do. Yes. That can seem like a mountain. Wouldn't, wouldn't you agree? Oh yeah. I've got that through my mending, the soul groups. [00:35:00] It's humbling to be the first person that they share that with, and they're scared to death and they've never told a soul and, right. Yeah. Is, definitely, is very hard. But the, the scriptures tell us that's what we need to do. But when we're with another human being, that's very humbling. Mm-hmm. But there's something very, refreshing about it once you tell somebody what happened. Yeah. Yes. It's therapeutic. Very, very. Yeah. For those that are maybe listening and they've been in the occult, or they have a family member in the occult and they are serious about getting free, like, oh, listen, there's somebody here that can help me. Uh, what resources do you have for the listeners? Just go to my website, randy goodwin.org, and you can contact me through there. So do you go through [00:36:00] a course or is it one-on-one coaching? What does that look like? Okay, so you're gonna contact me and then we are gonna meet, we're gonna meet one-on-one and just over the internet just like this. And it's all private. And sessions are gonna be about an hour, hour and a half spaced out, about one week apart. No closer than that because we need a time to reboot. Yeah, because Yeah. And the tube to all that stuff that you talked about. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause we're gonna get into it. We we're gonna get into way more than you and I have even discussed here. Oh, yeah. Way more. And we're, I, we move fast, very fast. I use broad, uh, brush strokes and, but if you're, truly serious, then yes, I can help you. , Of course, they're all asking, is there a cost involved with this? On the website, I do ask for a donation. Here's what's interesting. I have a daughter [00:37:00] who gets social security, okay? So she lives on social security. So she asked me the other day, she goes, dad, um, I wanna give, you know, to my church for a tithe and stuff, but I don't have any money. I'm flat broke. I go, that's not true. You do have something. Do you have 10 cents in your pocket? Yeah. Okay. Then you do have something to give. you have 5 cents? Yeah, I do. Okay, then don't tell me you're broke. You have something to give. You can give something. And by giving something, it puts you into the mix. You're involved. 'cause a money rep, money represents a part of our life. Sure. And when we're put a part of our life into the process, it makes all the difference. I absolutely. I forget you have a book. I have a book, it's Mind Control programming and SRA Survivors. And [00:38:00] it's on Amazon. You just type my name in Randy Goodwin. You can find it. It's on Amazon. Yeah. So that might be a helpful resource also. Anything you'd like to end with, something encouraging for our listeners, something practical. I'd just like to reinforce the fact that if you are an SRA survivor or even if you've had some trauma in your life, then you do have a free will choice. You still have that. It just depends how bad you want to fight through it and get free. That's all up to you. It just like coming to Christ. God's not gonna make you come to him and follow the Lord. It's up to you. You can get free. oh folks, reach out to Randy and his book and, for his sessions if that's gonna help you or a family member. And, thanks so much for coming [00:39:00] on the show. I sure appreciate it. This has been a great conversation, Randy. Thank you so much for having me. And I appreciate your time and all your efforts that you put into your show. Oh, God bless you. God bless you. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.    

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Dental A-Team's marketing mastermind Eve joins Tiff on the pod to discuss the top marketing strategies that can be easily implemented in your practice. They touch on social media, offline marketing, retention, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript:   The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners. I am in the studio air quotes there because you know, we're in two different places I say that all the time, but I am in the studio with someone very very special today and I'm so excited I just I adore this human being more than I think she will ever know I think she thinks she knows how much I adore her but she has no freaking idea   And I'm so excited to bring her here with you guys today. And I always bring my consultants and they are by far and away the A team and they make the Dental A Team who we are. And I'm always just so happy to bring them to you. But today you guys, I have the most amazing human being. I have Eve with us. And some of you may know Eve's name. ⁓ All of you likely see her handiwork every single week in your inboxes, in your email. ⁓   invitations, if you're part of our doctors groups, you are seeing her sprinkles of fairy dust and everything that the Dental A Team puts out, our logos, everything that we do. Eve is our marketing genius behind the scenes and she hates that term, but she really is our marketing genius. I have.   Eve, I'm just so happy to have you here. Like I could sit here and talk about you for the whole podcast and the amazing things that you've been able to do with us and for us. But first and foremost, massive welcome, massive thank you for taking this on. This is not, you love to be behind the scenes, but being in the face of everything is not your favorite space. And I somehow convinced you to do this. And Eve, thank you so much. And how are you today? How excited are you to be here with all of us?   Eve (01:37) I   am equally excited and nervous to be here. This is definitely one of the things that I had to challenge myself to do. you know what? It scares me and it's something new that I've never done before. So ⁓ let's do it.   The Dental A Team (01:52) I'm so excited. for all of our listeners, if you've ever attended one of our monthly webinars, we do free webinars so everybody knows every single month. It's the third Thursday every month. Eve actually, that's her. She is responsible for those. She puts them on. You've probably heard her amazing voice on there and maybe even seen her face a time or two, but that is the handiwork of Eve. And I know most of the content and most of the stuff, the engagement that you're seeing is put on by the consultants, but I want you guys to know   Eve is freaking brilliant. She is a mastermind and she has so many tools in her tool belt. And honestly, she, and I are constantly just in awe. Eve of the, we've told you this before, where we'll create content now, you guys. we, Kiera and I create the content. We're like, yep, let's rock and roll. And we send it over to Eve and I'm like, my God, I didn't even think of that. Like she's thinking of like dental things for us now too, because.   You've just done so much of it with us and you pour your heart and your soul into everything that you do. And I think when it comes to a great marketer, that is a massive piece of what really makes you shine and makes the company that you're working with or for truly shine as well is that you pour your heart and soul in there and you become who you're working with and you become that piece of content and you just embody it and you literally, like, ⁓ it makes me think of like Jim Carrey.   Jim Carrey does really, really well studying everything that he's going to his characters, right? So he does all the studying and he literally becomes them. And I've watched documentaries about him where he's like this different human. And that's what I imagine you doing Eve, when you go in and you do all of our content and all of our slideshows, our decks, all of that. You just become that content and you make everything just shine a little bit brighter. So massive kudos to you. Huge thank you and.   Again, thank you for doing this podcast with me, you guys. This is gonna be huge. Obviously we're doing it about marketing. I get so many questions about marketing and if you know I love marketing, it just lights up my soul, I don't know why. I love changing something a little bit to get a different result and to see what happens and use different words, use different tools, and it really, really lights my soul on fire.   I get asked a lot of marketing questions and something that even just what you talked about right now when we're prepping for this, I'm like, gosh, I actually get asked these questions constantly and I get asked for marketing companies. We have a ton we can recommend. We have time we work really closely with, but Eve, I really, really wanted you to come in today and really help us narrow down some effective marketing strategies that you've seen that you think can translate very easily to dental practices. We are a dental consulting company.   So our marketing might be a little bit like a smidgen different than an actual dental practice, but I think that a lot of it translates and marketing is marketing in my opinion. So there's a million things. And I think there's two that you just talked with me about that I want those to be like, this is the meat of it. But one question I get asked a lot that I wanna pick your brain on and I want just like, put this out there. And first off, before we even get started, everyone know Eve is like,   She told you she is equally as excited as she is nervous. And she is really, really fantastic at making sure that anything that goes out is as accurate as possible. So just know this is coming from ⁓ her marketing brain, The learning, the training, everything that she's got behind her and also opinions. Like these are things that we've...   tested, these are things that we've done, things that she's done, whether it's with our company or not, and opinions that we have on things that could or could not work. So with that said, one of the biggest questions I get asked is social freaking media. do I, dental practices on social media. And there's a whole bunch of different avenues for that and a whole bunch of different genres of dental practices. think I see like cosmetic practices or these smile design practices, obviously, they're gonna get a good   foothold and it's going to be more important for them to be on social media. But something Eve that I've always thought or been told is that for a general dental practice, your social media is really there to help boost SEO and it's really there to like get in front of your patients. It's not necessarily going to be something great to get in front of people who don't know you. And I think of that because I think of like the stretch within the country.   of how many people are randomly coming across social media accounts, what's your opinion on social media and dentistry?   Eve (06:29) ⁓ Well, think first and foremost, think social media is very important. And no, first and foremost, thank you so much for all the kind words. Thank you. Is this episode about me? That's great. Glad I came. Now, I do think that social media is very... And I think that more and more dentists are realizing now that social media is super important, is one of the main pillars of marketing. Because if people don't know that you exist, they're never going to come to your door. ⁓   The Dental A Team (06:36) Of course, of course. Yes.   Eve (06:59) One mistake that I think many ⁓ business owners in general do is they treat social media purely as a sales tool. ⁓ Social media can be that if you play it right, but it's more about awareness. It's more about building that trust with your community. It's about ⁓ showing like how you show up for your community. actually, my dentist, ⁓ I love their social media. They really just, their social media makes me feel like we are best friends.   ⁓ Like even seeing the familiar faces, ⁓ just seeing everything that they do kind of on a day to day or them taking me behind the scenes and stuff. It's really, something that really does build that trust with the audience.   The Dental A Team (07:40) Yeah, what is it for for dental practices? like you said, like sales, they're using it for sales. Are they going to gain new patients from it? What should it be used for?   Eve (07:51) You definitely can get new patients from it, but ⁓ for, if we're talking about acquisition, I would definitely recommend running ads. So your feed is not just basically covered with, I don't know, promo on whitening. And then the next post is ⁓ kids are going back to school, book your checkup and stuff like that. ⁓ Social media is to build that trust with the community, to kind of show who you are to them enough that they   are going to like you and they're going to trust you and they're going to come to you. After all, feel like dentistry is a very, and I don't think people really think about it this way, but it's a very kind of like intimate service really. ⁓ So I think that trust is just very, ⁓ very important.   The Dental A Team (08:36) Thank you. Yeah. And what I'm gathering there is that it should be a reflection of who you are. So who your practice is. And I think that kind of flows into a lot of podcasts that we've done on really knowing who you are, how you want to show up in the world. So what your core values are, what your mission and your vision are. And I feel like then if your social media is speaking to that, it's kind of as just putting yourself on display rather than saying,   please come schedule. hate, I hate, like I always think of like the Easter bunny, right? And the like Easter bunny picture that everybody posts. It's like happy Easter. And it's like everybody posted that or happy St. Patrick's Day and it's the little leprechaun. And it's like, huh, just be different. Like do a picture of your team with little leprechaun hats on and say happy St. Patrick's Day. Like do bunny ears on the doctor and not this like stock photo that everyone's using and then following it up with,   by the way we've got a whitening special for wedding season. Like everybody's doing that. So I love the way you said that.   Eve (09:40) Yeah. And I would challenge anyone that's listening to it to kind of try to be themselves for a minute and try to actually present themselves the way they are. Not what, not in the way that everybody else expects them to be. Like you're saying, it's, don't know, Christmas is coming. Everybody's posting happy Christmas from X, Y, and Z. ⁓ dental try to be different, try to, try to do what you as a person would do because that there is a massive chance that whatever you do or whoever you are will actually.   really make someone relate to you ⁓ even more.   The Dental A Team (10:12) Yeah. And you're trying to attract that patient avatar of the patients that you want, not everyone you're trying to, you're trying to narrow down your niche. So thank you. Perfect. ⁓ massive piece that I wanted to chat about B and I actually just got off a call this morning, ⁓ with a client and she had asked me for ideas on this and, ⁓   really just like boots on the ground marketing is what I like to call it and community outreach. And I love that style of marketing, especially for practices that are in a really community based town. like LA, maybe not like as many things to do, but there's still some, think boots on the ground style marketing you can do, but especially for those rural cities or rural communities within a big city that can do that kind of community outreach. What do you feel, how relevant do you feel?   that is or earlier you called it like offline marketing. How relevant do you feel that is? Because I do feel like a lot of marketing companies even are pushing so much online, so many Google ads, so much SEO and everything is like this online presence. And I do believe in Google ads and I do believe in Google reviews to boost all of that, but there's still gotta be something else that can go in.   Eve (11:05) Mm-hmm.   The Dental A Team (11:28) line with it, but what are you seeing that works really well or experiencing yourself?   Eve (11:33) 100%. And I think, and that's something that I mentioned to you earlier, that I feel like so many dental practices move online so much that there was so much room in offline marketing. There was this whole pool that is basically uncovered. And I brought an example of myself where I really, I do love my dentist and if he's listening, I love you, but I have moved. I have moved. now it means that it's like a 45 minute trip for me to go and visit my dentist.   The Dental A Team (11:55) Yeah.   Eve (12:02) I'm on a lookout for a new dentist. And what I've noticed is ever since I moved, I've been getting flyers from literally everyone with my name on it. So obviously they have access to my name, my address and everything. I've got flyers from the pest control guys, from people that are offering to fix my roof. People that are doing landscaping, driveways, everything else. I have not received a single one from a dentist. And this is someone that I actually genuinely need. So I know my job now is to go on Google.   The Dental A Team (12:31) Yeah.   Eve (12:32) run all those reviews and pick a new dentist ⁓ that I hope that I can trust. But that kind of shows that there is that massive gap, really. Because if you were in my area, so if you're in South Ogden, Utah, look. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (12:48) I have a dentist for you. I didn't know that's where you moved.   I have a dentist for you, but go on, go on.   Eve (12:55) Perfect.   So if you're in this area anyway, just know that there is zero offline ⁓ competition for you. So you can for sure attack this area. ⁓ But seriously though, I feel like he has that everything is moving online so much that there was more room again for offline marketing or even when it comes to like community ⁓ inspired initiatives. ⁓   The Dental A Team (13:16) Yeah.   Eve (13:21) You know, and you can be as creative as creative as you want. I've seen one dental practice around dropping like toothbrushes. think their slogan was smile more or something like that. And they were dropping toothbrushes and they were hanging them in, in a little bags on door handles of the houses. ⁓ so even doing things like that as well, even though obviously it might be a little, you know, it might be time consuming. It might need a lot of planning, but those things do, they might not get you up.   The Dental A Team (13:36) ⁓ smart.   Eve (13:48) They might not get you a new patient right away, but they slowly build up that kind of trust or it slowly shows people that, hey, we are in your community. We're serving your neighbors.   The Dental A Team (13:57) Mm-hmm.   I could see that. Yeah, I think a lot of dental practices pulled back from the flyers and they became, I don't know, think that, I think in the, I know when I was in practice, when we were in, we did thousands, we would do drops of thousands of these.   flyers and they would come back. would get the fly with the patients would bring them in. They would get them. But it takes so many times for those to get in front of someone before they're ready to call. And they would say, you know, I've had this here for six months and it's been hanging on my fridge and I finally decided to call or I was finally due for my cleaning that I think people just got they shied away. They got scared of it and felt that the ROI might not have been there, especially when maybe like the marketing   marketing budget, there's so much of the marketing budget going to Google Ads and going to website revamps and a lot of marketing companies just to host the website. It's a huge chunk of the marketing budget anymore that I think they stopped doing so many of those styles of marketing. But I can think of actually a handful of clients right now that   could probably benefit from that. And especially Eve, like you're saying now in a saturated market in Utah, is a very saturated dental market. If you're not receiving those and you're kind of looking out for them, that is a huge untapped area that those dentists could probably get. Yeah. Yeah. Just waiting.   Eve (15:23) I would be a very easy patient to just tip over. I'm literally, I'm here right now. Just come.   I'm literally just waiting. Yeah. But also what you mentioned, I think is really important when, when you said that, they might get a flyer and then they might get something else. Those are called touch points. And right now it's, it's proven that it takes seven to 12 touch points to actually convert a lead, which is like the patient to be, if you will. So now imagine how many.   The Dental A Team (15:32) Yeah.   Yeah.   Eve (15:52) how many in how many different areas you need to do those touch points to get in front of those people. ⁓ For example, you I'll give I'll give you my example. Let's say I got that flyer a week later when I see the same practice on social media, I'm going to probably pay a little bit more attention. Right. I'm going to go on Google and check their Google reviews, check out their websites, see what they do, see, look at the doctors, see if I think that I will actually gel with any of the doctors. ⁓   The Dental A Team (16:09) Yeah.   Eve (16:21) And so all of that are little touch points that actually lead to me picking up that phone and scheduling my first appointment with them. So it's not, you know, like, obviously sometimes it might happen, but usually it's not just one thing. It's a combination of a lot of, a lot of things. And that's obviously that's, that's work. And that's, you know, that's going to take up a chunk of your ⁓ marketing budget. ⁓ But it's definitely something that, something that works.   The Dental A Team (16:48) Yeah, yeah, I love that you said that I talked to practices about that constantly that it takes seven up to I think you said 12 and I've heard 13 times. And that's I talked to them about that for treatment planning. So if a patient needs treatment, like we're telling them multiple times, or speaking in or around it, we're not saying you need a crown seven times, we're saying like, there's something going on here, because of that same reason. And I tell them   I use the example of social media and you're scrolling on social, you're on Instagram, right? And you're like, ⁓ you like slow down because you're like, that's a cute pair of leggings. Like, and then you're like, gosh, it's an ad. So you scroll faster, right? But then the leggings come up again. And then it's like a different picture of the leggings. It's a different girl wearing the leggings, but it's the same leggings. And then all of sudden you're like so many times over, you're like, this is a sign I'm supposed to have these leggings. And now you're clicking on the boutique and you're like, am I buying these leggings? And next thing you know, the leggings are on their way, right?   You had no inclination, you did not go on social media to find leggings, but the leggings found you. And that's what that marketing is. It's like so many touch points, right? Yes, that's how they get you. And that's kind of, that's also what we're working against, right? Because that $30 pair of leggings that I just bought off Instagram that I have no idea if they're good or not, could have been a copay for a dental appointment too. So if we're not getting in front of our patients and we're not advocating for their dental health more,   Eve (17:45) That's how they get you.   The Dental A Team (18:08) than these legging companies and these boutiques on Instagram or whatever ads you're getting, because it's going to go off your algorithm, they're advocating for you to purchase whatever that thing is. So if you're not advocating for the patient's health and getting out in front of them, you're not really doing your due diligence as a dental practice. The sitting and waiting for patients to find you just isn't, I just don't think it's a thing anymore. I don't think that there's like walk-ins, you know, I don't.   Eve (18:30) 100%.   The Dental A Team (18:33) Some where for sure there could still be walk-ins, I just the sitting and waiting. I don't think is working anymore, you know   Eve (18:39) And also I think it's worth mentioning that you as a dental practice owner, you are competing with so many other practices who are literally pumping their money into their marketing, who are always chasing the next trend, the next thing to do to get in front of your patients really. So there is always that competition. And I know it's never a kind of a relaxing feeling when you know that there's someone out there trying to get even your existing patients.   But that leads us to another point, which is the retention. And as we know, to retain a client or to retain a patient is always, always cheaper than acquiring a new one. So when we talk about marketing, we also need to mention that ⁓ retaining your current patients. So making sure that, you know, making sure that your follow-ups are in check, making sure that you're reaching out, reaching them out with emails, that your reactivation process is   you know, is in place is just so important because that's actually, it's, it's so much easier to retain your existing patient who's already been there, knows you and hopefully trust you. Right.   The Dental A Team (19:46) Yeah, they're already bought it and you've built that relationship. And I think if you're a dental practice listening to this podcast, you are a dental practice who's likely relationship based. But I do think Eve, to your point, it gets so lost in ⁓ the other pieces. We get so focused on treatment or so focused on acquiring new patients. I walk into practices all the time and I have one practice in mind and he's going to listen to this. He's going to know exactly who he is.   And he's constantly asking me, what about marketing? And I'm like, bro, you just, you took over this great practice. You've got like 8,000 patients right now. Like your job right now is to retain the patients that you have. And maybe even, you know, if you're in a practice and you've had this practice for a long time, or you just took over a practice who's been around forever, there are thousands of patients who have not been seen in two plus years.   that know your practice. And so like Eve saying that reactivation space, like hit up those patients that already, they're already near you. If they've moved, they'll tell you. They are already bought into that location and reestablish that relationship because it is the cheapest form of marketing. And again, like Eve said, you already have that relationship started. And so you don't always have to.   pour a ton of money into marketing. And if you are in an area that you do, then do it. Your marketing budget, we usually say to keep marketing, our consultants advise like 3%. I've seen it all the way up to 5 to 8%. But 3 % to 5 % is usually a pretty decent chunk. And that should be of your collection. So that's of your overhead. So 3 % of your collections. Yeah.   Eve (21:25) like is that of your total budget or is that   your... Yeah, okay.   The Dental A Team (21:29) Yep, of your collection. So whatever last month's collections were, whatever your average collections are, we usually recommend 3 % up to 5 % of that poured into marketing. But to that point, I have so many practices that are like new patients, new patients, new patients. And I worked with doctors personally who just, everything was about the new patients. And if we're not remembering the patients that are already coming, we're doing a disservice to every patient that walks through that door. So.   strictly only focusing on those new patients is not going to build that relationship that keeps patients coming. And you're always going to be in the rat race for those new patients. And you don't have to be. One day you're going to be like, we're full. One day it's going to be like, well, I'm actually almost ready to retire. Like I'm good. And we want to, we want to see you get to that point. So I think that was massive Eve, what you said, and that retention and that reactivation is huge, huge.   What do you feel like, ⁓ to kind of wrap us here, I know AI is coming in really, really strong for a lot of practices. Is there anything that you've seen offhand, just off the bat, working well when it comes to AI in the marketing world?   Eve (22:44) ⁓ I think plenty, and especially for dental practices. And I feel like right now there is a, there is, ⁓ an uptick in companies, specifically dental companies helping out with that. And I don't know if I can mention names of the companies or not. So keep it quiet. I think, I think we know which ones we're, we're talking about. There are just so many companies now that are specifically designed for dental practices to help you out with it. Exactly. With the retention, right? there are companies that will.   The Dental A Team (22:59) You can.   Eve (23:14) literally do all the job really for you when they send out automated follow-up emails or follow-up texts, or they'll send out texts that are confirming patients' appointments. There's just so much happening right now. And I get that for a lot of ⁓ dentists and dental practices that might seem very overwhelming or the word AI itself might kind of not make you feel all fluffy and fuzzy inside because it is a little bit scary in the direction that it's   going in. But I think there are a lot of ways beyond what we know like chat GPT and stuff that the AI can do for you. I would say as a general advice, would just say you can always give it a shot. You can always try it. You can always track it. And you can measure your results. Because at the end of the day, if you try something and it doesn't work, you can try it again in a different way, or you can move on to a new thing.   One thing I would say though is just don't be scared of AI because AI for businesses is actually a very powerful tool.   The Dental A Team (24:20) I've even seen practices follow up with new patient calls. They'll keep a list of new patients that have called the practice and maybe not scheduled. They've asked a couple questions and then they'll call and follow up or they'll shoot them and.   in AI message, right? They'll have a system in place where it's like, hey, kind of like, it makes me think of, I use a lot of this protein company, right? This first form and they do fantastic at emails. And I'm always like, what is this one? Like, what's this new product, right? And as soon as I go look at it, a couple minutes later, right? I get that, we saw you looking email, right? And I'm like, yeah, I know. And so it's just getting that, it's the touch points though, right? It's like, hey, don't forget about this. And they'll gear.   a lot of the marketing towards the things that they know I want. And I think it's brilliant and it's AI. There's not a man on the other side that's like, Tiffanie looked at this, let me shoot this email. Like, it's all automated. So in the same voice, the same situation, even when patients are calling and they're just asking questions, it's like shooting an AI message that says, hey, did we answer all of your questions? Like, what questions do you have left? Because a lot of time patients will call and they'll still have more questions, but they might not   And so getting that extra touch point, I've seen them turn unscheduled like calls into a completed new patient. It works. And so in the same vein, doing all of those pieces to retain and to follow up with patients that maybe just didn't, they're not a patient yet. But as I'm speaking that I'm going back to like our original conversation of social media. And I think Eve,   something you do really well with our marketing is that everything is consistent and it's constantly in Dental A Team's voice. And so even down to your confirmation texts and emails that are asking if patients are coming to their appointments, if it's not in your voice of your practice, who you are, it's confusing. And it's not confusing.   Eve (26:20) and it's not finished.   The Dental A Team (26:22) Right? Like it's not like I sit there thinking, is confusing. This is weird. Sometimes I do. Right. But in subconsciously in the back of my brain, it's like a detachment. Every time something's different or something just doesn't fit, it's a detachment to that place. But when they're all succinct and everything flows and they're consistent, I'm more attached. Think about like Lululemon. If Lululemon all of a sudden was like this sterile email that came through, it wasn't like, girlfriend, I found the best set.   set of leggings you need, right? They were just like, look at these leggings. I'd be like, that was weird. Right. And it would detach me from that brand and that company. What do you think about that Eve?   Eve (27:00) 100%. And I am a big, I think I'm like Dental A Team's guard when it comes to branding and that goes for, that goes for everything that goes for your brand colors that goes, that goes for the use of your logo or even the images that you use, the videos that you use as well. So I think all of it. and I know we could probably talk about branding for another two hours or so, but yes, that consistency. And I know we might sound fluffy, but that consistency builds that trust. If, for example, you have a patient that.   The Dental A Team (27:05) You are.   Eve (27:29) goes to your social media and looks at all your posts and then decides to go to your bio and actually click on the website. If that website is different, speaks differently than your social media, there is going to be a little bit of that in trust, right? All of it basically should follow the ⁓ same branding. And the same goes for your voice as well. So at least then people also know what they can expect from you. If you are a dentist and there is a dentist in Salt Lake City and that's a...   pediatric dentist ⁓ and Tiff, you might know who I'm talking about as well. I didn't even know he was our client, but I've been following him on Instagram just because I love his Instagram. But he definitely comes to mind for me as someone, as a dentist or as a practice with a very strong branding. ⁓ I can be scrolling on Instagram. know exactly, even if there is nothing written on it, I know exactly which post is his. ⁓   The Dental A Team (28:02) Mm-hmm.   Eve (28:28) And it's crazy, but this does build that trust that we are talking about. The whole branding really is about building that familiarity. Like, of course we're going to trust things that we find familiar.   The Dental A Team (28:38) Yeah, I totally agree. And I think pedo practices do it, they do it really well. Pedo practices, they can speak their voice really cleanly. I oftentimes have like general practices. I'm like, go look at the pedo practices. Like look at these ones. These are ones I work with. Like look at their messaging and their branding because they really do know how to speak to it. But it's because the specialty practices, ortho, pedo, oral surgery, perio, they have to do so much more marketing because they're not   they're not getting the like, I need a cleaning phone call. Their specialty, so they're getting more referrals or they're getting patients that's like, gosh, my kid needs ortho. So they have to do so much more marketing. think they're more in tune with it. And I think recently in the last 15 years or so, marketing in the general dentistry world has really had to ramp up more than it ever was before. And we're just still learning so much. I think that speaks to like this massive change of   not having the flyers going out. It's like, okay, well, this might not be working, so let's cut it. And I hate that. You said something earlier about tracking. I only cut or change things if I can prove black and white that it is or isn't working. if a patient calls and they're upset because they got too many confirmation texts, like one patient out of 600 is upset and then practices are changing their method. And I'm like, but it worked for 600 other people, this one patient, you know? So I definitely agree with all of that. And I think   I think the key takeaways today are to, one, would say evaluate your area, right, Eve? Like look at what your competition is and what are they doing? I think something you said earlier was like really, really sticking to the boots on the ground, still working and still being one of those touch points. And I actually really love that touch point because it's so much different.   than the online ones. You're just getting blasted with online ones, but all of a sudden you have one that's in person in real life and you're like, oh, this is new. This is different. Exactly.   Eve (30:34) It's so crazy because it used to be the other way around. You get   a stack of flyers like this in your mailbox every single day.   The Dental A Team (30:41) Yes,   I remember being in office and getting calls from just mostly cranky old ladies. And I'm like, one day this is going to be me. I'm going to be this cranky old lady. And they would be so upset that I kept sending these flyers. And I was like, I didn't send them. Like I have a company and I don't know how they got your name, but they're like, take me off your list. You know, but that's not happening anymore because we're not sending them. Like you need those calls. That's how you know it's working. If you've got patients, non-patients, if you've got people calling, complaining that they're getting your flyers, that's how you know it's working guys. They're looking at them and they're calling you.   So due to diligence, figure out in the area, like what's best for you? What's gonna work? I do think I love the community outreach. I love getting in front of patients in that way. And then remember your social media is a brand, you guys. Is this supposed to be speaking who you are? And like Eve said, it should mimic what your website shows as well. So if your website needs some revamping, reach out. We've got some great companies that work on that.   It's a really great tool to have and I think we undervalue and underestimate how much our website actually does for us. It's an insanely helpful tool because people still aren't going to look at them. So,   Eve (31:51) And especially,   I feel if your website hasn't been updated for long, ⁓ make sure that it's mobile friendly. right now, obviously, I don't know the exact figures for dental practices, but I reckon that maybe 80, 90 % of people that look at your website look at it on their mobiles. And I don't know about you, Tiff, but for me, if I go on a website and after five seconds, I'm all lost and nothing makes sense, I'll click that X button very quickly.   The Dental A Team (31:55) Yeah.   ⁓ yeah.   For sure.   so fast. Yeah. Our attention spans just, you got it. You got to catch people literally five seconds. You guys, it's not our. Yup. my God. Tick tock killed us. I know. Yeah. Well, Eve, I think that was fantastic. I super appreciate you doing this podcast with me. I knew I wanted to pick your brain selfishly and ⁓ you're just the best human I could possibly think of to help dental offices really understand how they can.   Eve (32:23) It's right. Tick tock, tick tock. Tension span.   The Dental A Team (32:47) effectively market their practices. So Eve, thank you for today. Thank you for prepping for this. I know you've been stressed for weeks because I asked you weeks ago. So thank you. I think this was fantastic and you just gave so much information to so many people. So thank you for being here.   Eve (33:02) Thank you so much. And yeah, thanks for having me. It wasn't as bad as I thought. You made it easy too, so thank you.   The Dental A Team (33:07) Perfect, then I'll let you know when the next one is. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Good.   You're welcome. You're welcome. I promised you I would do my best. So everyone, hope if you are driving, you re-listen to this and you take down some tips and some tricks. If you weren't driving, I hope you were writing notes. Re-listen to this a few times, you guys. There's a lot of nuggets in there to pick up from Eve.   a lot of really great information. As always, drop us a five star review below. We'd love to know which tips worked best for you or which tips you're most excited for. And I always say this, you guys, if there's something you're doing that we didn't talk about that you think someone else should know, put it in that review because people really do read them. And we are here to just spread as much knowledge as we possibly can to as many people as we can. And as always, you can hit us up at Hello@   Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If you have any questions, if it's marketing, like just FYI, I tell you all the time that the consultants really do answer most of those, but Eve is in the background of those as well. So if you have a question and you're like, Eve, what do you think? Like we're here for you, okay? She would freaking love that. So Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You guys can reach us and as always, thank you for being listeners. Thank you for sharing these with other people. This is a really, shareable episode, you guys.   Marketing is hard, it's hard to understand, it's hard to see an ROI, and all the help that we can give each other is what we're here for. So go share this episode and we'll catch you next time. Thanks guys.   Eve (34:35) Thank you.

On this episode, Adam and guest resident co-host Amit Chopra speak with emergency physician and trauma team leader Andrew Petrosoniak about the evolution of M&M rounds in healthcare and his vision for M&M rounds 2.0. They talk about the importance of shifting away from individual blame to a systems-oriented approach in case analysis. The conversation explores the exciting potential of integrating video review into M&M rounds and the potential to start capitalizing on this technology for performance coaching, just like athletes have done for decades.    Length of episode :  51:41   Resources to check out:    M&M rounds 2.0: the future of performance improvement | Canadian Journal of Emergency Medicine  Contact us: keylime@royalcollege.ca      Follow: Dr. Adam Szulewski https://x.com/Adam_Szulewski            

Hey HBs! Ooooh baby, it's dino time again!!!!! And this time it's MM! We're here with SMASH & GRAB by Maz Maddox. We've got an introverted paleontologist, a rambunctious dinosaur shifter, a thwarted heist, and a road trip! Bonus Content: WV on a Northeast tour?, dinosaur parks, and so much more! This Friday on Patreon and our Apple Podcasts bonus feed, Sabrina and I are screaming about SINK OR SWIM and KING & QUEEN, the second and third books in this series! Curious about the ridiculous faces we make? Subscribe and watch us on YOUTUBE! Want to tell us a story, ask about advertising, or anything else? Email: heavingbosomspodcast (at) gmail  Follow our socials:  Instagram @heavingbosoms | Tiktok @heaving_bosoms | Bluesky: @heavingbosoms.com | Threads: @heavingbosoms   Facebook group: the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult Credits: Theme Music: Brittany Pfantz  Art: Author Kate Prior The above contains affiliate links, which means that when purchasing through them, the podcast gets a small percentage without costing you a penny more.

In this episode of Meaningful People, we sit down with Matty Stein as she shares her remarkable journey of growing up in a non-religious home, moving from place to place, and suddenly facing financial collapse that left her family homeless and living in dangerous neighborhoods. Through pain, confusion, and loss, Maddie discovered Judaism, community, and ultimately herself. Her story is raw, emotional, and deeply inspiring — a powerful reminder that even in the darkest moments, there is a path to strength, faith, and hope. You can follow Matty on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattysteinspeaks/ This episode was made possible thanks to our sponsors: ► Meaningful Minute Plus On Meaningful Minute Plus: MM+ is where the full experience happens. Members get:

財經M平方從 Podcast 開始慢慢走向 YouTube，利用影像、視覺版希望提供更好的體驗，我們本週也開了問卷給大家問問題，這集就來替大家解惑！ 本集邀請創辦人 Rachel 與研究副總監 Vivianna 來聊聊，大家對於M平方、總經、市場行情、未來趨勢的種種疑問，快來聽聽 Rachel & Vivianna 怎麼解答吧！

Tiff and Kristy discuss the ongoing challenges of hiring, including how incentives and mentalities have shifted over the past five years — and what you, as someone hiring, can do about it. Part of the discussion includes the pros and cons of how to pay team members. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:02) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back today. I have Ms. Kristy again with me and we are just having a good old time over here recording ⁓ Love and Life and getting our time in together. I think you guys have heard us say it before. This is like, and I know Dana says the same thing, this is some of the only one-on-one time that we get in our lives. I don't know if you guys know this or not, but we are a completely virtual company, meaning we are all at our homes.   We don't have like a workspace that we come to and then if you're a client of ours, you know, we're on calls or in offices quite a bit as consultants or our consulting team. We really just don't get a ton of time together. So these couple of hours that we bust out some podcasts are near and dear to our hearts and I just adore you Kristy and I appreciate you blocking out the time when your schedule always for it and for always just putting so much value into everything that you do.   with your clients, with your podcasting, everything that you do. So Kristy, thank you so much. Thank you for being a part of the Dental A Team. Thank you for being here today. How are you? How are things going over there?   DAT Kristy (01:09) Good, thank you for having me. It's wonderful. I love what I do serving people and it just brings great joy. So happy to be here with you.   The Dental A Team (01:18) Amazing. Good.   Thank you. And I have a question that I haven't asked you yet. How are, how's your family adjusting to the heat to being here and your puppy who's not necessarily a puppy anymore, but he'll always be a puppy. All your dogs, I guess, both your dogs, but how's everybody, how's everybody doing kind of getting settled into Arizona?   DAT Kristy (01:40) Yeah, everybody's loving it. Thank goodness there's pools around so we can get cooled off. the dogs, they're definitely staying indoors right now. It's especially the little Frenchie, you know, that you have to be careful because they will overheat really easy. He's I can tell he's missing his walks right now, but they'll swim.   The Dental A Team (01:46) Thank you.   Yeah.   Yeah, good, good.   I had a black lab that hated water, like couldn't be anywhere near water, which is so not allowed. And summers were rough. He would get hot, but he wanted to be out there, but he was an Arizona born dog, so he was fine. But I was just thinking about earpups this morning, like, gosh, they're not used to not being able to just go outside and chill in the backyard for a couple hours. Well, I'm glad that they swim. I'm glad that they're enjoying that.   DAT Kristy (02:25) So true.   The Dental A Team (02:31) ⁓ and yeah, we're just, we're excited to bring you some information this, this day. We've got, gosh, what four podcasts for recording. So I'm super excited for them all to release and you guys, we always want you to know that these podcasts are for you. So if there's ever anything that you have hopes, wishes, desires, things you want us to talk about things that you want us to dive in deeper on, please just always reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are always taking suggestions and we're always here to help.   And also if there's anything that we say on these podcasts that we're like, we'll get you that. We really do mean that as well. have clients that write in all the time and say, Tiff said, and I'm like, sometimes my marketing team is like, what were you talking about? I don't know, but we figure it out. Whatever it is that we say that you can have, we want you to have it. We are here to deliver massive amounts of information to the dental community in the best ways possible and that.   comes with a ton of free resources. That's our podcast, that's our sheets, our documents, our website. We have all kinds of stuff everywhere, our ⁓ social media, we're on Instagram and Facebook, like wherever you can find us, you're gonna find a slew of information. So we're here for you and when you're ready for one-on-one consulting and not just getting all the information on your own via the web, please reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are so excited to serve all of you guys in whatever way fits you the best today. Kristy.   I wanted to chat this podcast today. I've had, well, number one, I've had a lot of hiring in all of my practices. So I actually chatted with a doctor yesterday, a very successful doctor in Colorado, and he was like, Tiff, what the heck? Like, we lost another one. We just filled our hygiene spots and now we're in front office. And like, what is it? What's going on? He's like, just as soon as I feel like I'm making progress, someone leaves. And I said, you know what?   And he's like, it's hard to not take it personally. That's what he said. And I said, you know what? I understand that. And I, and I feel that. And on the level of, you know, being a lead on a team, I don't own this company, but I have a lot of vested interest in this company and its success. And it's hard. And I said, we come from, we come from a time of, of being employees, right? When we were employees and we were working and, and our work ethic.   Not even ethic, I don't even think it's ethic. Just like our tendency to stick around one place longer, is, it was there longer than it is now. So we just, we didn't leave. We stayed where we were. We became part of the family. We allowed work to become a bigger piece of our lives than it does for a lot of people in this day and age, in my opinion. I think that we,   made work our, like we tied our identity to work. And so leaving was a bigger ⁓ undertaking than it is when you're not so tied to what your job is, your title is, or the place is. And it's much easier to say, you know what, I can, I want to grow into something different. I want to be someone different. I want to change. And so they do, they leave more easily. And I think from   our point of view, it makes it really hard because we tied so many emotions to our job and our identity to our job that we're like, gosh, do they not like us? Do they not like where they work? Am I not doing good enough as an employer? But the reality is we've actually created an environment and ⁓ a social standing that people identify with who they are as a human outside of work better.   than we ever have in our lives. So it's like a catch-22, no matter what, there's a pro and a con to everything. And the pro is that they're not so identity attached to their jobs or their titles. The con is that it's easy for them to jump ship and try something new. We're much more apt to dip our toes in and try that new thing. And so I think the hiring has just over the last, realistically five years, has had a lot more turnover and we spent a lot more time hiring.   than we ever have in the past. And I could be making all of that up. That's my opinion. That's not like scientifically proven, but it's just something that I've noticed by studying people and studying myself as well. Like how am I transitioning? How am I changing my identity tools and all of those pieces as I watch the climates change so much. Kristy, what are your thoughts on that? I know we both have a lot of clients. I have experienced a lot of hiring this year. What are you seeing?   DAT Kristy (07:11) 100 % exactly what you said Tiff and it is hard. It's a hard reality. I think ⁓ Back in college. I took sociology not that I really liked it But now I'm like man I wish I would have dug into it more because I think there is something with the new generation and ⁓ Not to go woo-woo, but I think there is something with those personalities. You know what I mean and It's kind of funny and listening to you talk about it because our generation is   always like speaking to work-life balance, work-life balance, and I think the new generation actually has it figured out better.   But we're angry at it. We want it and they're doing it. And I get it. And I also get it because of being in a, in a practice administration role. Like it's hard hiring and training and retraining and hiring. And so I think ⁓ we've got to find a way to maneuver around that easier versus ⁓ taking it so personal and choosing to see it as a good thing. Maybe not necessarily a thing, but yeah.   The Dental A Team (07:50) Mm-hmm. agree.   Yeah, that   was beautifully said.   You're totally right. I love that you said you pointed out the work life balance because I agree and I whenever I hear the words work life balance now I think of that like yeah, I'm like it's like that live laugh love that we had all over our houses like every room had a live laugh love sign somewhere and it's like so outdated and overplayed when I hear the words work life balance. I'm like, my gosh, like stop saying that just have balance. just have balance balance balance. If you continue separating work and life.   and not understanding that it's one, you're one person, you're gonna continue to be out of balance. So just have balance. And I think you're right. think they've, lot of people have found that balance where neither tips the scale and they just understand their boundaries and their priorities a little better than maybe we did when we were their ages. So there's our spiel on that. But one of the...   DAT Kristy (09:10) I was gonna tell you, it's kind   of ironic, I'm spilling the beans and being vulnerable now, but my daughter's in dentistry, you I roped her into it. And so I hear it from her often, mom, it's not my life, like it is yours. And I was like, ⁓ stab me, right? Like, it's so true. So I'm living it.   The Dental A Team (09:32) Yes, it is. Yeah.   Yeah, so   you're seeing it firsthand. You're seeing it with your practices and just watching, but then also within your own home. So I totally get that. And I have a actually happy practice out in Rhode Island near and dear to my heart. The office manager's daughter is their billing rep. And I see the same kind of conversations, the office manager and like stop taking work home, like just do it at work. And then her daughter is like, why are you working at home? Like put it away. And so I do, I see that same dynamic there. And I think, I actually think the ages are   about the same, like you guys are both in the same spaces there. ⁓ So it's interesting, but I think with that conversation, doctors oftentimes and office managers are like, what can we do more of? What can we do better? How can we offer things differently? And the hygiene market is wild still, okay? It's 2025, I don't know when you're listening to this, but I hope if it's years from now, things are better.   Because the hygiene market is still a little wild. It's just still hard to find hygienists So if you're listening to this now like go apply to hygiene school because the demand is high Go get your degree go do your thing and come out a hygienist, but we oftentimes get asked for provider information on pay, right? And so we have a couple of different scenarios a couple different options. I Mean dollar per hour still near and dear to my heart when it comes to employees. I think that it just   I just, for me, it's an ease of life. It's just easier. And so I love dollar per hour, but I do like the stipulation that a provider should be making three to 3.5 times their rate of pay in order to pay for themselves so that the overhead doesn't get out of control. So dollar per hour, three to 3.5 times their rate of pay. You've got to do the digging on what your area.   is hiring at or what they're paying their hygienist or their dental assistants, whomever, because it does change, it does differ by area. More rural is going to be maybe a little less, city life is probably going to be a little more, Indianapolis compared to Phoenix, compared to San Francisco, compared to, I don't know, New Mexico, right? They're all going to be very different rates of pay. So I can always, you know, we can always spew out some numbers to you, but Google is a really fantastic tool and Salary.com gets it right every single   So go check those for sure dollar per hour and then I really wanted to chat a little bit and we talked about this a little bit ahead of time me and Kristy did on paying based off of production or collections and in my opinion I've seen this I've seen this and in my opinion it's kind of the same structure that you would give to an associate so Don't over complicate it a lot of practice owners a lot of office managers like to over complicate it so just don't do that and   pay like you would an associate? What would that look like? What would those stipulations be? What would the percentage of production or collections look like? ⁓ And pay based off of that. There are pros and cons, right, to everything. And I think there are pros and cons to paying off of production or collections. And Kristy, I think I'd love to hear from you on that production-based pay, because I know that you've seen that and worked with some clients that have done that. What are some things that you've seen that work well? Why?   Some clients, like I've had clients recently ask, should I move to a percentage structure rather than a salary or a dollar per hour? What do you see work well within that percentage structure on production or collections? Like you said earlier, I do think collections is a little bit more difficult for providers, especially for hygienists that don't have a lot of say in that, but production-based maybe as well. Kristy, what are your thoughts?   DAT Kristy (13:08) Yeah.   To be honest with you, this is something a little near and dear to my heart. And I think we will probably see ⁓ a little more of it just with, ⁓ I don't want to get in the political things, but we know that there are some states looking at assistance getting into hygiene. so with that being said, we all know that hygienists come out of school and they take their boards and they're all expecting to come in at that same level. Right. And just like associates, we know   they   all do their testing as well, come out with their doctorate and get their license. But we know they likely aren't going to produce at the same level, right? So hygienists are no different. Usually your seasoned hygienist can carry conversations different than, you know, somebody brand new. And their skill set is likely a little bit different, whether they've gone through more CE or not. So to be honest with you, I do   I'm a huge proponent of paid for performance ⁓ Yet I also feel in hygiene ⁓ Paying them a good going rate like you said, you know know what they're in your area and Give them that good going rate but just like you mentioned tiff with associates if somebody's performing and when I say performing I'm not just talking like production numbers or monetary That's just a side effect, but I'm talking like   moving your patients to health, getting them healthy, calling perio perio and having those different, you know, difficult conversations with patients. If they're willing to do that, why wouldn't we compensate them for that?   The Dental A Team (14:52) Yeah, I think that's fantastic. That is a very good point too. And that is something I think that comes up a lot for practices is that perio space. And if I've got one hygienist who's just rocking it out and having those difficult conversations and diagnosing correctly for our patient's health and not just for the production or just for the accolades, but really, really doing due diligence for our patients, how do I repay them? And I think that is a great point that that production-based pay   is.   an effect of that. think that's fantastic. I also see practices that will do dollar per hour and bonuses. So if you go above and beyond that 3.5%, they can get, you know, a one or 2 % or whatever you decide you want your bonus to be of what's above that. So one mistake I do see practices make with this, I'm going to give you a caveat, is that they'll do it the bonus based off of the total. And I typically would do the bonus based off of what was above and beyond the threshold. So we don't total it, we say this was our threshold, anything above   that is what you get the bonus off of. So any bonus programs is that's typically how I'm gonna run it because that's your excess. This is your overhead, this is your excess. So we're only bonusing off of excess and then also a small caveat, I did talk to an office the other day that was, they're making some transitions and they're like, do we change the structure? And I'm looking at it and I'm like, well.   they wanted to lower the threshold. And I said, well, no. Number one, no, never do that. ⁓ Number two.   You also didn't add in my overhead caveat and you're at 66 % I think overhead for the year, but the team's been bonusing. And so we're digging in trying to figure out like what's going on. I have a couple offices going through this right now. This one kind of East Coast stern was like a little topsy turvy upside down. So I think no matter what you do, you've got to make sure that it's going to work the best for your practice for your overhead. So if dollar per hour right now is the best bet and you're able to manage and control your overhead with   that, do that. If you've got a team that you're like, want to, I want to make this more production based and Kristy, like you were saying, like really give that energy to what we're pushing for and kind of pay them back right for the work that they're putting in. You have that flexibility and that level with the percentage on production collections and or bonuses. I love the, if you're asking me either or I would say   in my opinion, production-based over-bonusing. ⁓ It just is easier. Again, I want easier, and it's easier, and it's like tailored for this position, this person. It doesn't have to be across the board for the full practice if we're not to a point that we're ready for that yet. So cons. ⁓   I think there's cons to everything. There's cons to dollar per hour because often times, especially in the ⁓ temperature that we're in right now with the dollar per hour, it is hard to do three to three to point five times their rate of pay. I tell hygienists and I tell doctors all the time, I'll pay you whatever you're asking for. I'll pay you whatever you want. If you can make it work with the numbers. If you can do three to three point five times that rate of pay in production per hour, you've earned it. That's the point is that the overhead has to match.   and for our team members that are listening, I just need you guys to really hear me when I say doctors can't pay you from nothing. So if we're upside down in our overhead, we're not making profit on the company, the business is not profiting.   It's not just for the doctor to profit. It's not just for the doctor to go buy a house or whatever you think is actually happening behind the scenes. It's to ensure that things are paid for. And so if we're upside down in payroll, it's got to come from somewhere else. So then we got to pull it from supplies or from labs or from somewhere. And so the pay always just has to make sense. So if you can make it make sense, I don't care what it looks like. So there's pros and cons to all of it.   So there's the dollar per hour making sure that you're staying in line. There's you know, collections production based and then there's the accelerated which we're not going to spend a ton of time on the accelerated. kind of feel like it's a dying breed in this.   day and age. I love accelerated myself and I loved being hygiene assistant to accelerated hygiene, but that's a really great space too. I do have a hygienist that I know out in like the Chicago area who does accelerated and she's paid on production. She kills it. She is making really pretty numbers over there, but there's pros and cons to everything and it kind of runs the doctor a little ragged, so you just have to have the right system   for that and to make sure that it all just makes sense. And Kristy, you've got a ton of practices too in this same space. What would you have seen like really working or not working within any of this, whether it's associates or hygienists, really just what do you see that works really, really well?   DAT Kristy (20:08) Yeah, honestly, Tiff, I'm gonna say the one that I've seen work the best is a combination, right? ⁓ Again, a good going pay rate and then incentivizing them on.   I'm going add in it's more of a profit share model, right? Because like you said, it has to make sense with the numbers and be profitable. ⁓ And again, I do see a lot of ⁓ accelerated, but I will caution there too. The ones that I've seen work the best is when you give them a very good assistant that can perform. You know what I mean? Don't give them an entry level person that can't carry conversations. And I shouldn't say can't, but is   as developed right and or let them hand pick them and develop them right so that they work in tandem together and I've seen it work very well in both models but you have to have the right personality and desire there.   The Dental A Team (20:57) Yeah.   I think that's a fantastic point and to that point I've seen it work really well. ⁓   with the right assistant as well. And oftentimes what we do is we hire a hygiene assistant who's like the low level training, not quite the doctor's assistant yet. And the reality is it needs to be someone who knows how to run a schedule, how to talk with the patients, how to sell treatment, how to take the x-rays correctly and really give that concierge service because we've got to make up for not having as much time with the hygienist, right? So the hygienist does all of that in your hour appointments, but when you're   shortening them and they're doing accelerated, the hygienist is only in there for 30, 40 minutes, right? You're losing a lot of value there from the hygienist transitioning. So that assistant definitely has to be top level, top notch. And we make that mistake a lot. I've made that mistake in my own office and hiring many, many times. So it's kind of opposite and you really need a skilled assistant to be your hygiene assistant. I agree. That's a great point. Awesome.   DAT Kristy (22:15) And you know   what, Tiff, you mentioned earlier that the margins are getting hard, especially with PPO and they're not reimbursing. You made a good point about the co-diagnosis aspect. Make sure you're factoring that in. Like look at what's coming out, know, track it and see, because that also needs to be factored into the pay scale, right? It may not just be 100 % hygiene services. You almost have to look   The Dental A Team (22:37) Yeah.   DAT Kristy (22:45) at hygiene sometimes as part of your marketing strategy in a way, you know? So.   The Dental A Team (22:48) Yeah, that's a great point. I totally agree.   Yeah, I love it.   Thank you, Kristy. ⁓ I think there's some great ideas in here. You guys know we did not give you the do this answer because it is really case by case. I mean that with every ounce of my being, it is dependent on what's going to work best for your company. If you want help diving into that, figuring out what might be best for you or your company model, we are more than happy to help you on a one-on-one basis. Reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We'll be happy to get on a call with you to dive into your practice statistics.   sticks and needs with you. Again, no, I don't have a do this, do that, but we can help you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and we are so happy to help any of you guys. We are all here for it. We have a team standing by, always ready to hop on a call with you.   Kristy, thank you for your amazing words of wisdom and for your vulnerability. And we have more to record, you guys. We got more coming up for you. And we are just so excited to deliver you so much amazing content this month. Please drop us a five-star review below letting us know how helpful this was. If you have ideas, if you have things that you've done that worked or didn't work, send them in. You can put them within your review. People really do go through and read those. Or Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You can send them over to us and we'll be happy to   with you or put that information out for others to read as well. So go find us, Instagram, Facebook, all the places, and we'll catch you next time. Thanks guys.

Kiera and Kristy break down a few reasons why your practice might not seem (or might not be, period) to have any money. They touch on how to find your profit point, knowing your debt, staying on top of collections and AR, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera. And today I have Kristy with me and I'm super excited because today is one of my favorite things to do as consultants and I call it office autopsy. ⁓ Don't worry offices, this is a mix of a few offices because believe it or not, offices think that they're on individual islands and believe it or not, you're not. ⁓ Multi-practices actually struggle, they actually do the same things that you struggle with. And so we just wanna make sure that we bring, we're not going to ever disclose who this office is.   We will mix a few offices together, but I think for people to see what the office's pain point was and then what as consultants were able to do. Kristy, we have some really fun ones. so Kristy and I decided we wanted to podcast today about some office autopsies of what, hopes to help more offices. So Kristy, welcome to the show today. How are you?   DAT Kristy (00:48) Good, thank you. Pleasure to be here.   The Dental A Team (00:50) Of course. Well, I'm super happy because I think the one that we run into a lot ⁓ is we call it cash flow row or cash flow woes, like whatever you want to talk about. But it's really when an office comes to us and they seem to not be able to figure out what's going on. ⁓ They feel like they're producing. Sometimes they're producing, sometimes they're not. So we'll kind of discuss like how to know if you're producing enough or not. But then they feel like they just like have no cash. And so giving some background.   Like I said, I'm going to blend a couple of practices together, but we have kind of going to do like two simultaneous ones. One practice was producing really, really well, but literally the owner felt like they had no money. We're talking like flat broke, felt like they were completely going to go under, had no money, but yet their production numbers were really good and their P &L looked really good. And we're just like, it showed on the P &L. I think, Kristy, you'll find this too, offices get so frustrated.   I got so frustrated and angry with my CPA when they said, well, Kiera, like according to the numbers, you have money. And I'm like, great, high five, jerk. I have no money in my bank account. Like it's the most infuriating feeling in the world of my CPA tells me I should have money, but there's no money. Flip that too on the other side when a practice isn't quite producing what they need to be producing to pay for their expenses. And they feel like they have no money and they are flat broke, which in reality that practice is flat broke because they need to produce more or they need to cut.   So we're gonna kind of dig on both sides of these with office autopsies of what we see, what we've been able to do. And let's start, Kristy, on the side of what do we do? Like, okay, first step, how do we find like the profit point? Like, how do we figure out what should an office be producing? Because I think that's also infuriating when doctors are like, but I'm just producing. I feel like I'm trying to out-produce my problems. Like, I don't know how to produce more. ⁓   how do you, Kristy, as a consultant, come in and help offices just gain that clarity? Because I think sometimes when we know the North Star and we know what we should be targeting, it actually becomes a lot easier to then build block schedules and then figure out what our overhead should be. But how do you help offices even dig into that? As point one to figure out, let's autopsy both of these practices, I think this is step one to really getting clarity.   DAT Kristy (03:00) Absolutely. I agree with you, Kiera. ⁓ The first step is to understand how much we're paying for things. What is the cost to keep the doors open? You know, we talk about overhead, right? But what is overhead? It's everything that we have to pay within a month. Rent, utilities, staffing, right? The other thing that I want to point out is many doctors don't include themselves in that. And I definitely want to pay them   The Dental A Team (03:16) you   DAT Kristy (03:30) Just like if they were an associate in the practice and so we want to include that in that overhead cost if you will and find that What I like to call profit point so we know where we're what's our? BAM right   The Dental A Team (03:48) bam, that bare ace minimum, like what do we have to   do? It's kind of like in real life. I mean, I think all of us have a bam in real life. You know what your mortgage or your rent is. You know how much it costs you to like do your groceries. You know how much daycare is, you know how much it costs you for like your Amazon spending. And some of those are fixed costs. So fixed are like your mortgage or your rent. You can't really change those. Those are fixed for you. Yes, like I get it. The semantics, we're not CPAs here. We're not like, that's not our world.   The semantics are can you change your rent? Potentially you could go find somewhere else. That is an option you could do. But most of the time those are pretty fixed. Just like our utilities are pretty fixed. You can be like my husband where literally our AC goes off at 6 p.m. at night. He freaking freezes us until 6 o'clock to save on these utilities until 9 o'clock. It drives me wild. I'm like in a hoodie freezing, shivering. And then the AC goes off and I'm like roasting. It's really entertaining because he wants to save the $3.   But genuinely speaking, like you're not really going to be saving on those fixed costs. are some fixed ones. Staffing is usually pretty fixed. However, we could add team members or take team members away. So therefore it's not as fixed. But like you said, Kristy, I think it's figuring out in a practice and agreed, doctors should be paid. Like nobody, think that that actually causes more stress for owners. If you don't even know what your paycheck is or you're just taking draws, because then how do you budget your life on a up and down volatile paycheck?   I think that creates a lot of stress versus like, okay, great. Let's just put you at a hundred grand or let's put you at whatever is a reasonable salary. Talk to your CPA. They'll be able to give you that. ⁓ And that can be agreed with Kristy. I like to pay you as an associate, but if right now the practice can't support that minimum should be a reasonable salary of say a hundred grand. So that way you can at least bank on that of getting that paycheck in your practice. Sometimes you have to adjust that, but generally speaking, if we at least give you some type of certainty and clarity,   that's going to help you then be able to budget your life around that too, in addition to budgeting your practice.   DAT Kristy (05:49) Absolutely. In fact, Kiera, sometimes even with startup doctors, I like them to even keep a spreadsheet of their production as if they were paying them as an associate. And then when they start to get profitable, we can back pay those wages. But definitely they have to take care of themselves first. ⁓ I've even seen where they get a little bit of animosity if not, right? Like, staff's driving these cars and they're getting their nails done and they're doing   The Dental A Team (06:00) Agreed.   Mm-hmm.   DAT Kristy (06:19) and I can't even pay myself. So I think it's very important that we understand what that is and work toward that, number one, if we're not there. And then if we are there, adding additional ⁓ percentage to that, which us as consultants can help guide that depending on your goals. If it's paying down debt, paying you as an owner doctor.   ⁓ And you know, we follow the EOS system, so adding those buckets for taxes and those sort of things that come up and we can be prepared for.   The Dental A Team (06:55) Yeah, no, I think it's brilliant, Kristy. And when you said that, I agree. You don't want to not be paid in your practice, because that gets, A, it's stressful, and B, it's annoying, and C, you've got all this debt on you. ⁓ But I also think when we're looking at our practices, there are pieces, so when doctors are like, I'm not getting paid, I just want to remind that sometimes we're being paid through things running through our practices. And so we've got to be careful, because that is,   Like if you didn't have your practice, you'd be paying for that out of pocket. And so that is technically part of your salary, doctors. And I don't want to be the like balloon pop girl over here. I do want to be realistic because a lot of times doctors are like, I'm not making money. And I'm like, but you forgot that these things are running through your practice. So you are being paid for those or those things are no longer coming to you, which is totally fine and legal. Talk to your CPA. Like we want you to do that. There's nothing wrong with it.   But when we're looking and we're like stomping our foot saying we're not being paid, sometimes I even have to remind myself of like, yes, but Kiera, if you didn't have the business, all those costs would be coming out of your W2 paycheck, not your business right off. So agreed with Kristy, when we're looking at this, step one is let's find that BAM, let's find that profit point, let's find out what you have to produce. And then from there, what we need to find out is also in addition to that, how much is our debt?   Because a practice should not have to be covering your debt, but you as a human needs to be covering your debt. So if your student loans, your practice loans, things like that, the practice isn't necessarily a poor performing practice. You just have all this excess of like, my gosh, I have to pay this off, which that's real life for you. And I think that's the difference of a CPA's bookkeeping for you versus your real life living through it. And I can tell you from personal experience, like this is very hard. Sometimes practice loans do go through your   your practice profitability. Again, this is pending on your CPA and how they recommend you do it. But most of the time your student loans and different things like that don't run through the practice. So, but you as a human need to have enough money to be able to pay for all those things. So I think it's finding out the practices, BAM, like Kristy said, finding out your personal BAM, because that might be different. And then from there, let's tack on 10 to 20 % beyond that. So let's say you know you've got to produce 50,000. Well, awesome. 10 % of that would be 55, adding   20 % excuse me, so 10 % of that is going to be an additional $5,000. To do 20 % of that's going to be an extra $10,000. So if I know I've got to do 50, I've either got to produce 55 or 60. Now that becomes much easier and I know beyond that I'm going to have 10 to 20 % leftover of the practice after everything's spent. Our ideal is to get it to where your 50,000 is 50 % of your practice and there's 50 % quote unquote profit beyond that. Now again,   that profit is a little bit funny because if we're doing a 50 % overhead and 50 % profit, doctor salaries usually are not included in that. If doctor salaries are included in that, then usually it's a 20 % profit at the end of that. So I know those two numbers feel a little like disjointed. They've been very disjointed for me. So if you're doing true overhead, we want it at 50%, 30 % doctor pay, 20 % profit. If you want to combine it all together, then it would be 80 % quote unquote overhead, 20 % profit. Now that 20 % profit though,   does technically pay for debt services. So watch that. You might need to scale down our 50 % down a little bit more or 80 % to then be able to offset that. So hopefully that wasn't too confusing for everybody. This is why we're consultants. This is why we help you. But I think when you understand like either need a 50 or an 80 % ultimate goals, we're trying to get 20 % cashflow at the end of the month. think for me, that's like the easiest thing. Like, okay, if I'm producing a hundred grand a month,   I want 20 % of that, so that's 20 grand. So like I'm trying to do easy numbers for all of you. I want 20 grand after everything's paid to still be remaining. Now, one other kicker as a business owner is that 20 % is also taxed. So don't forget that that gets taxed. So if you're at a 30 % tax bracket, well, you gotta take 30 % of 20 grand and then the rest of that you can spend. And this is why I think owners get so frustrated, because it's like, oh my gosh.   Like just tell me how much money I can have. And when I talked to a CPA and Kristy, I think you come across this, like our whole lives up until owning businesses, we've been paid at the W-2. So everything we got paid, we were able to use. Well, now as business owners, everything we're paid, we don't get to use. That's not the way the game works. ⁓ And it's due to write-offs and different pieces like that. So I think just knowing the rules of the game, I remember being so fresh with my CPA and I said, I like you're playing Monopoly with me. Like just tell me the dang rules.   So, and like, don't tell me like, no, you can't pass go, but you can pass go if you do X, Y, Z, but then like, no. So it's really, you've got to have a profitable practice of overhead. That's what we as consultants are really obsessed with. You also as an owner need to be responsible of how you spend. That's not to say you can't spend, but you do need to spend responsibly and you do need to set aside your taxes. And I think when you have all those pieces set up, then you can have guilt free spending because you're paying yourself.   Plus, you know what your true profit is. You've saved for taxes, you've saved for a rainy day, like Kristy was saying. We can put buckets into place to pay down more debt. You can put buckets in place for emergencies in your practice. You can put buckets in place for ⁓ vacations. I have a doctor I was just talking to on Alaska cruise and I was like, how's that bucket working out for you? And he's like, I love it, Kiera, you set it up for me. And I know how much I can spend on vacations. I know how much of my paycheck goes into that portion. He also used to spend an absurd amount on CE. So we set a true budget of how much CE money he could use.   But that's kind of where you then as owners aren't just trying to waffle through this and actually can figure out those profit points. And I do think, Kristy, like as much as we've belabored this so much at the beginning of this podcast, I feel this foundational piece is what makes owners crazy because they don't know the rules of the game. So they start spending all the money. Then you get this huge tax bill. Then you feel mad. Then you feel like you have no money when it's like, no, you did have money. just we accidentally spent it. So now we got to make up for it later because we didn't put these rules of the game into play.   Kristy, you might have a simpler way to do that. What are your thoughts around that?   DAT Kristy (12:49) No, I agree with you 100%. Otherwise, what I find is, you know, business owners, doctors, they just come up with this arbitrary number that they want to hit. But again, just because we're producing something doesn't mean we're profitable. And so they go together, but we have to understand the difference.   The Dental A Team (13:12) I agree. And I love that you said that because production feeds the ego and profit feeds the family. And so it does not matter what you're producing. And I agree with Kristy. It's like, I want to produce a hundred grand. I want to produce 200 grand. Well, high five. Let's help you do that. But on the flip side, let's make sure your expenses are there. And there's another practice I'm thinking of right now where they're like, we have no money. And I'm like, all right, if we have no money, truly it's let's do the checklist. Number one. Like, do you see me even scratch my head? I'm like, if you're not watching the video,   Just know when I hear people say, don't have money. I'm like, all right, it's either a production issue or a spending issue. It's one of the two. So just know those are the only two levers for when you're saying, I don't have money. It's either actually there's a third. There's technically a third. And that is a collection issue too, because we're either not producing enough. And if we are producing enough, we might not be collecting enough. And if we're doing both of those two things, then it's a spending issue. So let's break it down to this office autopsy. Kristy, let's go for a practice that is producing enough.   they don't have money, how did you fix or how did you find out that this practice had a collections issue?   DAT Kristy (14:14) Yeah, well number one we would look at.   How much was their net production and how much are they currently collecting? My minimum benchmark is always to be at 98 % or higher. Obviously, if we can get reservation fees to pre-collect on things, we may see that up a little bit higher. But if they're not at that 98%, what can we do to get them there? What's getting in the way? Is it patient? Is it insurance? Are we not submitting clean claims and getting them back in a timely fashion?   The Dental A Team (14:26) Agreed.   DAT Kristy (14:47) ⁓ But definitely that would be the first place to look.   The Dental A Team (14:51) Yeah. And so Kristy just said the benchmark. If you're not at 98 % collections, then there's a problem. Second piece is look at your AR and if you have more than one month's worth of production in your AR, we also know it's a collection problem. So when we diagnose on this practice, I remember we talked to a doctor and they're like, Kiera, I have no money. Kristy, I have no money. And I remember we're like, so actually you do have money. Believe it or not, the money is there. It's just sitting in uncollected amounts. So Kristy, you even went with another office and like they didn't have money and you just straight up called.   You like went with the office manager and you guys just picked up the phone and started calling on balances to get the money. And I really want doctors to know, and Kristy, I think this is the infuriating part as a consultant where I'm like, no, like you're producing well, you just have to collect the money that you're producing and don't like, don't even feel bad about it. So what do you do for teams that don't want to collect, that have these big ARs? Like what are a few simple steps? Like if that's my practice, I'm-   Hi, Kristy. I'm the doctor today. My team, this does not want to collect money and I feel like I can't pay any bills. What do you do in that scenario as a consultant, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (15:53) Yeah, well, I think we have to dig deeper into their own, like the team members own biases and what's getting in the way and get them comfortable to realize that we're not doing good by our practice and or patients if we're not collecting those balances. So, you know, really seeing what's the roadblock and let's work through it to overcome it because people deserve the care. Patients deserve to be healthy and   And part of that is also paying for the treatment, right? So just digging deeper, figure out what's getting in the way and helping them to overcome, create some verbiage for them to feel confident in being able to collect.   The Dental A Team (16:39) Yeah. And Kristy, I think you do an amazing job as a consultant. think this is where I love being consultants is like, you will actually help them sometimes call on accounts and help them see how easy it is. And ⁓ I also think when we're looking at AR, let's get our best bang for our buck. like, let's sort it to biggest balances and let's call on those first. Like, let's figure out different pieces. And like you said, there might be a myriad of reasons why your team members don't want to collect. don't think typically it's due to the fact that they don't want to collect. I think they're just scared. There's fear.   They're afraid of a patient being mad. They're afraid of not being able to explain the balance on the account. They might not understand why insurance is denying claims. Billing is a whole black hole, just so doctors understand, like there are a lot of nuances there. But I think on that side, if you are producing, like I remember this practice, they are producing like 150 to 200. And I was like, what do mean you don't have money? And we looked at the P &L and we're like, no, according to your P &L, you have money here. And we just realized it was a lack of collection process.   We implemented that Kristy, you helped this practice. They implement, they started collecting and now the doctor's like, wow, like two months later, I feel like I'm like happy as a clown because they literally have money now, but the money was there all along. And that's really like, I think a myth to dispel on this office autopsy is a lot of times the money is actually there. We're just not collecting. We don't have the correct processes in play to do correct insurance verification, to have better estimates, to collect in practice, to then have better ways that we are posting payments.   We don't have a process for how we're calling patients and insurance. And if you don't have that whole process dialed in, that can actually get really daunting for a practice. But Kristy, let's flip sides to the other dark side of this coin where they might not be producing enough. So like we said, it's either a production process, a collection process or a spending process. What do we do on the dark side where they're not producing enough? Like that's scary to me. So what do you do on that? I think there's like two zones here.   DAT Kristy (18:33) Yeah, absolutely. Well.   Number one, once we figure out that benchmark, typically, Kiera, we go and look at how much are they diagnosing, right? If we're looking to hit 100,000, we typically need to be diagnosing minimum three times that number ⁓ if we want to hit it, right? So where are we with diagnostics? And then where are we in case acceptance? how, if we are diagnosing that much, how much are we   actually getting patients to say yes to that treatment if you will.   The Dental A Team (19:09) Mm-hmm. And I think, Kristy, great point on that because it's twofold on this dark side of the coin of if we're not producing, are we diagnosing enough? And if we're diagnosing enough, are we closing enough? And those are two different people actually in this scenario. So doctors, have to diagnose. And if you're a doctor who's scared of diagnosing a couple tools, it's OK. I always tell doctors, it's your moral obligation to diagnose. As a patient, if you were to go in and there was someone who saw   Let's say you did a scan, I've had multiple MRI scans on my brain. Do you know how mad I would be at a doctor if they chose, because like they don't know if I can afford it, if I don't wanna hear the bad news or like whatever it is, they choose not to tell me what's on my brain or a broken bone or if I've got something in my blood work, I would be livid. And yet doctors, you're diagnosing, you're taking x-rays and if you're not telling these patients what's going on, ⁓ that's your moral obligation to do that. So if you're nervous about it, that's okay, I'm not here to tell you.   there's anything wrong with it. I just want to remind you that this is your moral obligation as a healthcare provider. So there's Pearl or Overjet of an AI solution that might be a solution for you ⁓ or just diagnosing one more thing than you normally would. If you're used to like watching, ⁓ that's okay. Maybe like just watch 75 % of it, but diagnose one of those things that you would normally watch and just notice patients don't get mad. They don't get angry. ⁓ Remember when you do get that frustration, it's just due to their expectations not being met.   So if you can even help them co-diagnose with you. So having your hygienist call out their perio numbers and let the patient know before they do it, like, hey, we're looking for the health of your gums, anything above a four, that's something that we need to watch if there's bleeding. And I'm gonna show you, so listen with me, you're gonna hear, ⁓ and then you'll be able to hear. Well, now that patient's listening actively with you of, wow, I heard like seven fours, or I heard like a six in there, now you don't have to try and teach them and say like, you've got perio.   They actually heard it and they co-diagnosed with you. You can show them x-rays of here's a healthy tooth. This is what a healthy tooth should look like. Now look at this tooth and what do you see? You guys, if there's decay in there, even the untrained eye usually can see that pretty big chunk of decay taken out of there or use intraoral photos to where that patient's co-diagnosing with you to gain the trust. And that actually makes it easier for you doctors, because then you're not teaching them. Or if you're like really nervous about it.   AI teaches them. Like it literally just puts the puts it up on there and you don't even have to hardly do anything other than just presenting it to them and educating them. So something simple there. And then if your team's not closing cases, amazing simple things like an NDT our handoff. next visit date, time, recare that can help tremendously. ⁓ having your team members track their treatment plans, having a consultant help them. Like we literally help listen to treatment plans, guide and give coaching on different ways that they can do it. So there's two ways if you're not diagnosing or producing enough.   that we can easily do that. And the next one would be a block schedule. Kristy, any other thoughts on that? Because I'm sure you've got pieces working with so many team members too.   DAT Kristy (22:06) Yeah, listening to you talk about the case acceptance, it's just hitting me that sometimes I think our fear is in telling them, but really if we take a step back and just include them in the process and figure out what are their long-term goals for their mouth and being able to speak to them in a relational way that...   The Dental A Team (22:23) Thank   DAT Kristy (22:29) really is flipping it to what is their goals and getting them what they want. I think that takes the pressure off of us telling the patient, right? And so, ⁓ truly, I think when we master this, it's a beautiful thing and you get patients to stick for very long time because they feel heard, right? And they still are in control of their care. So.   The Dental A Team (22:53) Totally, I agree with you, Kristy, and I love that you talked about like, they're part of the solution with you. And I agree, like, I can't as a treatment coordinator want this more than they do. It really has to be something that they're a part of. ⁓ And also just helping your team see, similar to doctors, when we're watching so many things, team members can accidentally be saying one or two words that's guiding a patient the wrong direction. We might be highlighting insurance more than we're highlighting total treatment. We might be putting emphasis on like your max on insurance or   Like we could just start with one thing because we're afraid of presenting total dollar amounts. All of those things are normal. That's like very normal. Your team's not struggling, team members listening. You're not doing anything wrong. Just highlighting that there are different ways that you can present it. And I call it like the sequence. So think about when you're back in high school and you had your locker combination. If your combination code was 321, you could put in the number 213 and your lock wouldn't open. You could also do 123 and it wouldn't open. You could also do 32...   three and it won't open. You can have the exact same numbers and just do them in the wrong combination and it won't open versus if we have the right pieces in the right combination, we actually get more case acceptance. So just realizing like what are my tools that I'm using? Am I putting them in the right sequence? Am I using the tools like insurance is a tool? It's a coupon. So let's maximize that, but it's not going to guide my treatment. Let's maximize getting full case acceptance. Let's maximize like Kristy said, knowing their ultimate goals and tying my treatment back to those ultimate goals.   just using the tools in the right sequence can also help with that case acceptance. Now, if you are a practice that's not diagnosing enough, I think that this becomes like a little bit of an ego check and I'm sorry to be the ego check day today, but it might be something where if we're not diagnosing enough and we are collecting and we're not producing enough, it might be time for us to look to see about cutting costs. And this is something where I don't love to have this conversation. However, bottom line is the practice has to thrive.   Otherwise we all will fail. And doctors like you won't be able to help your team. You won't be able to help patients. And ultimately your livelihood is on the line too. Nobody is happy in this scenario. So when an office is like, don't have money, great. We've looked to see, you diagnosing? We've looked to see, are we collecting? We've looked to see our case acceptance. Like let's check all the boxes. Flip side is what are we spending money on? Immediately I'm gonna go to anything that you no longer need in the practice. So I know we might have been in the glory days.   doing all these ITero scans. Well, guess what? Glory days are gone. We're no longer there. And I hate to be Debbie Downer, but the reality is we need to sell that. We need to get out of that contract. Anything we are not using in the practice, we need to cut those debts off of us. And this is just a yucky moment. And I'm sorry, but you've got to do it. And as a business owner, this is your job as a CEO is to watch the profitability of the business. Like you have to, and you have to make those hard cuts. And I will tell you, you do it one time. You're a lot more cautious on things you'll purchase in the future.   So we start cutting costs of things that are not paying for themselves. So if we've got extra equipment in the practice, if we've got other things that we can sell. Also, team members, we might have bulked. I've done this as a CEO, so I'm just gonna tell you, like, it was a really, really, really bad day when I realized I over-bulked anticipating something to happen in the practice, and I actually had to scale back and cut. That does not feel good, and it's something that we want to avoid. However, if we have ultimate, like, more team members than are necessary, or we could outsource to things,   I'm not here to say, determinate team members. Like we said, like we went through all the different scenarios, everything we possibly could do. But the reality is you may have bulked too much in a practice and you need to scale back and cut. And that's just a zone where you walk the walk of shame and you commit you're never going to do it again. But ultimately you have to get yourself to a profitable zone. You've got to look at your own spending. A doctor was like really struggling on spending and they had multiple credit cards. Consolidate those credit cards down to where you only have one. We pay it off every single time.   We look to see what other things we like work out deals with the lab or different people. ⁓ But you've got to be realistic. You might have to get a line of credit to get yourself out of it. You might have to take equity out of your home or your practice. Those are things I hate doing, but I also feel sometimes the pain of discipline is better than the pain of regret. And I would rather go through the pain of discipline and learning to like cut my costs and watch my costs and not hire. Like I might extra hire.   a hygienist. I might extra hire a treatment coordinator. Those are two players on my team that will actually generate revenue for me. And not to say assistants don't because assistants can, but I could get by with a Mr. Thurshy. Now, dentists, I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for that. The reality is you can do that for a short amount of time. And I just want to highlight like it's inconvenient, but it's also inconvenient not to have money to pay your bills. So like choose our heart on this. But this is a zone where like I heard a doctor and they were struggling and they   They spent like 10 grand on something unnecessary. And I'm like, that's a spending issue. That's a you issue. That's not a practice issue. And it's not a diagnosis issue. If you cannot produce what you have for your costs, it's like the person has to accept the fact that they bought too big of a house. Like you've got to scale down. You got to size down. And as much as that's an ego blow, that's also smart business ownership. So Kristy, that's my like soapbox. So doctors, like we said, it's first, let's make sure we're producing. Like, let's figure out our amount. have to, then we're going to check our production. Then we're going to check our collections.   Then we're going to check our diagnosis. We're going to check our case acceptance. We're going to check our block scheduling. Then we're going to go into any unnecessary costs that are on our PNL. ⁓ Look to see, there anything we could do to reduce costs? And then it's going to be, we've got to cut. And like, you've got to make that decision before you go under. ⁓ You owe that to your patients. You owe that to yourself and you owe that to your team. And it's a sad, crummy day, but it's part of business. Kristy, what are your thoughts?   DAT Kristy (28:27) Yeah, I think you nailed it. The only area we didn't uncover was you usually do have some unscheduled treatment that you may be able to tap into. And I would definitely explore that resource. But you nailed it, Kiera. I mean, you hit all of the boxes for sure.   The Dental A Team (28:46) So those are kind of like looking at a practice that says, I don't have cash. These are some of the ways to diagnose that we do within practices. And notice the very last thing that we went to was cutting. That's not our mission. That's not our process. And we're never going to tell you to cut somebody. That's going to be ultimately your decision. We're just going to remind you that as a CEO, that's part of your job. And I remember going through COVID, had a coach and she said, Kiera, you've got to have a list. You've got to have a list in your mind of like when things get tight, if they get there.   What are you going to do to make sure your business thrives and survives? And that has stuck with me when I realized like, that's why I'm paid a CEO salary. That's why I'm paid to make these hard decisions. That's why I ⁓ signed up to be a business owner. Like that's the hard side of success. Success has two parts of that coin too. There's the light side and the amazing side. And then there's the dark side that a lot of people don't talk about. So if you're looking at your practice and you're saying, I don't have cash, go through the checklist, Kristy and I just gave you. ⁓   And sometimes it does help to have a buddy in it with you, a consultant, somebody who's in it with you. Like Kristy, I think about the night that you picked up the phone with that office manager and you guys started calling, you called on accounts with them. I think sometimes not feeling alone in the process. think somebody pushing your team, because you're like, I don't know how to say this to my team. ⁓ Someone who can help guide them, someone who can help look at your diagnosis and help you diagnose maybe one more thing, ⁓ really can be an asset. And I call Kristy our money bloodhound.   If I have a practice on cashflow row, I'm like, all right, Kristy, I don't what you're gonna do, but girl, go to work and go start looking. And I think having an outside set of eyes, it's not sitting in there floundering with you, but can have a cool, calm, collected head, sometimes can be the most beneficial. So if you're struggling, reach out, we're here to help you. And it comes with no judgment. Kristy, don't think I've ever once heard you judge a single practice. You come with love, you come with open arms, and you come with solutions quickly.   to make sure they get there. So Kristy, any last thoughts you have for these practices who might be struggling, who are hearing this office autopsy being like, my gosh, that's been me, or my gosh, I feel like I'm headed that way. Any other thoughts you might have for them?   DAT Kristy (30:43) ⁓ Just again that you're not in it alone and having us to help ⁓ guide mentor and just make sure you have you know daily weekly monthly Systems in place and balance, you know a checklist balance. We got ya we can help   The Dental A Team (31:00) We do. do. Well, Kristy,   thanks for being on the office autopsy with me. Thanks for just loving our clients so much and helping them. I think that client who two years after you started helping say to us, I like have never been this free or like, my gosh, like this is what ownership should feel like. I think those are the wins that we live for as consultants of hearing you thrive, hearing your successes, hearing you have your dream life and not being so stressed, ⁓ even in possible situations that are stressful. So Kristy, thanks for being that consultant with us.   DAT Kristy (31:30) It's a pleasure. Thanks.   The Dental A Team (31:32) Of course, for all of you listening, don't be on cashflow row. Don't be struggling about these things. If you are part of any of the scenario, if you're like, my gosh, any of those things resonated, reach out. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Go to our website, click on TheDentalATeam.com book a call. Like truly it's a no judgment, just clarity, just momentum. Even if we can't help you, we've got resources. Even if you're not quite the right fit, that's okay. Like we will be there to support you. ⁓ but I think it takes courage to book the call. It takes courage to admit you need help. but there's so much freedom.   to know that you're not alone, that you're not having to do this alone and that there's somebody who truly can help you get out of the scenario and that's been there, done that and done it successfully many times. So reach out and as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on The Dental A Team Podcast.