Podcasts about MM

Your gut is more than just a digestive organ- it's a living symphony, and every note tells a story about your health!In this enlightening and eye-opening episode, Ali sits down with Virginia A. Caldwell, MM, MT-BC, NMT, HNP—a board-certified music therapist and owner of Caldwell Community Services—to explore the fascinating connection between gut health, music therapy, and whole-body healing.Virginia's journey is nothing short of inspiring. From healing her own endometriosis through gut health to helping others restore harmony in their bodies, she offers wisdom for everyone—whether you're just starting your wellness journey, living with an autoimmune condition like Crohn's, IBS, Arthritis or Diverticulitis, or simply wanting to feel your best.You'll learn: Why your gut works a lot like an Amazon warehouse (a great way to think about what we allow IN and OUT!) Sneaky toxins you might be overlooking—like sucralose and glyphosates—that disrupt digestion, mood, and healing The link between what you eat, how you feel, and your ability to recover from chronic illnessAs Virginia reminds us, “The road to good health is paved with good intestines.”This episode is packed with hope, science, and a healthy dose of joy. If you have friends and family who rely on fast food and processed snacks, consider this a loving nudge to share this conversation with them.  Listen now and let your gut's song inspire your healing.

Did you know that there is a whole industry around the concept of helping deserving people and organizations to receive recognition through winning awards? In this episode we meet and get to know one of the foremost experts in this industry, Donna O'Toole. Donna grew up in the South of England in a real castle. At the age of 16 her family conditions changed, and she had to go to a home with four other girls who also lost their family arrangements. Donna had to go to work although she had wanted to go to university. Eventually she did get to earn her degree.   Donna studied linguistics and found ways to use her growing knowledge of the field. Eventually she discovered the value of recognition and how helping people and companies gain recognition made them better for the experience. She began working to help people and companies earn awards. She will tell us about this fascinating subject and why earning awards is important. She gives us statistics about how after working to win awards and the subsequent recognition sales and overall exposure usually grows.     About the Guest:   Donna O'Toole is an award-winning entrepreneur, international awards judge, and bestselling author of WIN! – the ultimate guide to winning awards. She's also the founder of August Recognition, a global leader in awards strategy and part of the Dent Global group, helping purpose-driven entrepreneurs stand out, scale up, and make a meaningful impact.   Named one of the Top 25 Customer Experience Influencers in the world, Donna has transformed the visibility and credibility of hundreds of businesses - from start-ups to FTSE 100 giants - by helping them win the recognition they deserve. Her clients span global brands, high-growth entrepreneurs, and inspirational leaders across every industry.   Donna is renowned for her outstanding success rate in the most prestigious awards in the world, including The King's Awards for Enterprise. She's passionate about the true value of awards - not just the trophy, but the trust, authority, and growth they generate.   Now, Donna is taking her mission even further. Together with her business partner and Dent Global co-founder Daniel Priestley, she's launching a pioneering new AI venture that's transforming the awards industry - making it safer, simpler, and smarter than ever for people to find, enter, and achieve the awards and recognition that matters.   Ways to connect with Donna:   https://www.augustawards.com/ - to get a free copy of my book: Win! and to get a Free awards list LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnaotoole/ Instagram: @donnaot     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingson, and I think we'll have some fun today. We get to talk to Donna O'Toole, who is over in England, and she has a very interesting story to tell and a profession that she works at regarding awards. We'll get to all that in a bit. I don't want to give it all away, because it's more fun to listen to Donna tell it than it is to listen to me tell it. No one has ever said that I'm boring, but nevertheless, I always think that the people who come on the podcast are much more fun and interesting than I so I can't I can't argue with that, and of course, that's my job to make sure that happens. But anyway, here we are once again with unstoppable mindset. And Donna, I want to welcome you and thank you for being here.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:09 Thank you. It's great to be here with you. Michael, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 And it's what about 930 in the evening? Or no, it's up 737   **Donna O'Toole ** 02:17 Well, it's   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 after dinner. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. And we're, we're really glad to have the opportunity to do this. And so I'd like to start, it's so fun to always start this way. Tell us sort of about the early Donna growing up and all that. Ah, okay.   Donna O'Toole ** 02:35 Um, okay. So, well, I don't tell very many people this actually so secret. One for you, Michael, I actually grew up in a castle, which makes me sound like I lived in a fairy tale, but I didn't. It was definitely not a fairy tale, and I'm not a princess, so I'm sorry to disappoint anybody.   Michael Hingson ** 02:54 Well, what was it like growing up at a castle?   Donna O'Toole ** 02:59 It was, you know what? It's one of those things that when you're an adult, and you look back, you realize how amazing you were, it was, and how lucky you were. But when you're a child, it's just all, you know, isn't it? So, yeah, we were very lucky. I grew up in a town called Arundel, which is in the south of the UK. It's a very historic town, and the reason that I lived there was because my stepdad was the head groundsman at the castle, so he looked after all of the grounds for the Duke of Norfolk. And yeah, it was a it was a wonderful place to live. We used to be naughty and run around and go hiding in nooks and crannies that we shouldn't be. However, I was permanently petrified that there was ghosts and bats and all sorts of things like that.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 So were there ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 03:49 Yes, definitely, certainly, they were making noises like ghosts, and we couldn't identify what they were. So, yeah, there's a few stories around that castle. Actually around I think there's a ghost of a lady in one in the library, and there is a ghost of a Labrador, actually, that people talk about seeing there as well. So I'm sure they were friendly.   Michael Hingson ** 04:14 Did you ever see any ghosts?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:16 I think I convinced myself that I did. On many occasion, my bedroom window looked out over Arundel Cathedral, which is was lit up at night, which looks very spooky. I used to be terrified to look out of the window at night, in case I saw something I didn't want to see.   Michael Hingson ** 04:36 So was the castle drafty and cold in the winter?   Donna O'Toole ** 04:40 Yes, definitely very stone and cold. And we had a ray burn. It's called, it's like an auger type thing where you just, you sort of heat up the kitchen by heating up this oven thing. Yeah, I remember putting wood in it. I remember that,   Michael Hingson ** 04:56 wow. Well, that was kind of fun. So how long did you. Live in the castle.   Donna O'Toole ** 05:00 So I lived in the castle until I was 16, and then her life took a bit of an unexpected turn at that point, and we had a difficult family breakdown that resulted in myself being actually taken into care for a while, so I didn't get to I did. I did finish school and finished my GCSEs exams as they were, but it did mean that I didn't get to continue on my education at that point, as I needed to earn some money and learn how to look after myself. So at 16, I was living in a home with four other girls who were in similar situations to me, which is girls who's through no fault of their own, their families couldn't look after them anymore. And we learned to, you know, live and survive and get through life together. And it was a great adventure. There was ups and downs, for sure, but actually at that point, I needed to get some work, and I also wanted to continue studying, so I ended up becoming an apprentice dental nurse, and that is where I started. And I never expected to go there. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 06:24 I guess, I guess it is an adventure, though. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 06:27 Life is an adventure, and you've got to be ready for whatever it throws at you. That's what I say. And   Michael Hingson ** 06:31 I think that's a good way to put it. I think that life's an adventure, and I think that we can choose how to look at life no matter what happens, and either we can think things are positive and grow with whatever occurs or not. Yeah, 100% 100% and   Donna O'Toole ** 06:46 actually, if it wasn't for that part of my life, I don't think I would be here today, doing what I'm doing now. So it's, it's incredible how you can't predict where life's going to take you, but you do go on a journey. So I actually became a dental nurse. And then I got bit bored of that, and my brain was always active, trying to think of something new to do. And I spotted a gap in the market for at the time dentists had there was just this legislation that changed that meant that dentists always had to have a nurse or a chaperone in the surgery with them, whereas before they hadn't had to have that. And so what was happening was you had all these small dental practices whereby the the dentist couldn't work if their nurse was on holiday or off sick or on maternity leave or something. So I spotted this gap in the market to be to start a dental nurse agency to fill those gaps, if you pardon the pun, and and to actually go all over Sussex and support the practices that needed help. So that was at the age of 19, I started my first business, and yeah, it was a great   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 success. I was just going to ask how successful it was.   Donna O'Toole ** 08:03 Yeah, it was great, and I really enjoyed it. And I got to know so many people. I trained nurses, which I really enjoyed as well. So I developed myself whilst I was developing them, which was great and and then after that, I I stopped that business and handed it over to some good friends who were brilliant nurses to have my children and to take a little break while I have my two daughters.   Michael Hingson ** 08:27 Now, did you ever get to university or college?   Donna O'Toole ** 08:31 Yeah, so then had my girls, and still I've got a very busy brain that needs a lot of occupying. So I thought, right, what can I do now? I've got two children under the age of four or five. I know I must need something else to do, so I decided to go back, finally, to university, and I studied linguistics, so English language linguistics at the University of Sussex in in the UK. And interestingly, it's incredible, because during that part of my life, I absolutely loved every part of it. I was really passionate about English, and as a child, I'd wanted to be an English teacher, but because my life had gone on a different path, it wasn't something that I'd been able to do. But actually, during that time, I studied large language models and computer mediated communication. And it just absolutely blows my mind that through making that decision and then further decisions later down the road, I'm actually now launching a company that is AI based that is containing large language models. So it's really, like, amazing how you can connect the dots in your in your journey.   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 And of course, you're calling it Donna GPT, right? I had to. I   Donna O'Toole ** 09:51 love it. I'm Michael. I am definitely calling it that now.   Michael Hingson ** 09:56 Well, that's, that is cool though.   Donna O'Toole ** 09:58 Yeah. So when I. Actually completed my degree. I came out of that and thought, right, well, I need to do some work now. And I started writing for businesses. I'm quite a business writer. I'm a real aura of people who can write fiction. I think that's incredible, yeah, but I'm definitely on the factual side. So I started business writing. Then I started, just by coincidence, started writing award entries for some businesses. I then started working with another awards agency, and I really saw, then the power of how awards and recognition helped people to reach their potential in business and in life, and so that then took me on my next journey.   Michael Hingson ** 10:47 Well, awards are, are interesting. And of course, we hear about awards for all sorts of things, but tell me more about the power of awards and where they where they can fit into society.   Donna O'Toole ** 11:00 Yeah. So, so we work from I work with business awards, so generally speaking, so even back then, it was sort of working with entrepreneurs, or entrepreneurial businesses, or even big brands, whereby they wanted to recognize their achievement and they wanted to raise their profile, so they needed to raise brand awareness, perhaps around what they do, their services, their products, and what's always quite I find quite interesting about awards is people who've never been involved in awards tend to come into them with quite skepticism, which is understandable. It's not a regulated industry, so you do have to be a bit skeptical and do due diligence around what awards you're entering. But they come into them with skepticism about themselves and actually whether they have what it takes to win. And very often, what I found was they did have what it takes to win, they just didn't have know how to communicate it in a way that others could understand that they had what it took to win. So my job, as I see it, is to really support them, to communicate their story, their data, their evidence, everything that they're doing, and turn that into a proposition that demonstrates why they would be exceptional at what they do, or their team is exceptional, their brand is exceptional, so that They can stand out in awards.   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 So it's almost like you're helping to train potential award recipients to respect what the awards are and what they do. Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 12:31 it is always understanding what they're looking for, what the criteria is, and how they can stand out against it. But also, you know, most people who are involved in a business, whether you're running a business or whether you're a part of a team or you're a manager, we don't have the time to stop and look back and think, wow, what have we done over the last year? What have we achieved? What you know, what's really standing out about us? We just don't give ourselves that time. So recognition and awards is a really good opportunity to stop and look back and celebrate together the development journey that you've been on in your business and and motivate your team and the people around you to do even more because you're recognizing it   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 well. So how did you actually get involved in doing awards in the first place? What that's a pretty unique sort of thing to take on.   Donna O'Toole ** 13:23 Yeah. So it was kind of a journey from starting out in business writing and then moving through into doing a few award entries, and then that became more and more, and then I worked for another organization. And then in 2016 I decided the time was right to launch my own company and to start supporting more people with awards. I was, had already been involved with the industry, so I was very well supported by some great awards in the industry. And so yeah, I I started my new business, and that was called August recognition. And because I'm a linguist, I like words that have extra meanings. And August actually means in its second sense of the word, when you're not using it as the month actually means respected and admired. So in my mind, I had started an agency that enabled people to be respected and admired for what they did, and help them raise their profile that way. So   Michael Hingson ** 14:24 you don't really hear a lot about the industry of helping people get awards, but I gather it's probably a fairly substantial industry around the world.   Donna O'Toole ** 14:35 Yeah, it's 10 billion pound industry in the awards industry in itself. It's 2 billion just in the UK. So yeah, it's a big, big industry. There's so many events connected to awards. There's so many different processes. So yeah, and there's, if you imagine, every different industry there is in the world there's awards for it. I dare you to find an industry where there's not an award. Yeah. Even,   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 I'm sorry, even, even AI. And that's pretty even AI, yeah, yeah. And so when AI starts generating its own awards, then we can probably worry a little bit,   Donna O'Toole ** 15:13 yeah, we're eating ourselves, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 15:17 But still, it's, it's a fascinating, well, topic and industry to talk about, because I'm sure there's a lot to it. Of course, like with anything, there's also a lot of politics and all that sort of stuff, but, but it must be a fascinating industry to to be a part of and to see when you help somebody get an award. How does all that work? Yeah, so   Donna O'Toole ** 15:42 usually, well, we work with businesses from the smallest business in the world right through to the biggest business in the world, literally. And what I really love about the whole process is you, you as a small business, you can use the same strategies, you can enter the same awards as the biggest businesses can and you can win. So what I really love is that you you don't have to be a certain size, you don't have to be a certain type of business. You just need to be having an impact in some way on something, and then be able to tell It and Prove It, essentially.   Michael Hingson ** 16:19 So how do you as a person in the industry make your money or earn your money as part of all of this? So   Donna O'Toole ** 16:26 we work with clients who are looking for recognition. So for example, a brand may come to us and say, you know, over the last couple of years, we've done some great learning and development projects. We've trained our teams, we've digitized our processes, we've done all of these great things. We'd love to recognize the people that have worked so hard and really, you know, give them the recognition that they deserve. So we will then look at their project, look at their business. You know, what kind of impact has that had on it might be internally. It might be that it's had a great impact for their customers. It might be it's had a great impact for the impact. For the employees. And then we'll look at all of the data around that, and we will create, we will research which are going to be the best awards to recognize them, which criteria they match, which categories they match, and then essentially, we'll support them to execute all of the work that needs to go together to go into the awards process. Someone's once said to me, did you ever think you'd be running a business where you're basically writing exams every single day? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Fortunately, I don't do the writing anymore so, but yeah, I kind of love it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:36 Yeah. Well, it seems like it would be sort of your your writing exams every day, or you're involved in helping to prepare people for the exams.   Donna O'Toole ** 17:45 Yeah, it's very analytical from looking at what's been achieved, but then it's all about communication and how you're going to deliver that to the awards process. And it's all about finding the right awards that are going to give them the right recognition, that's going to really have a return on investment for the motivation of the team, for the brand awareness, whatever it is that their goals are, that they're hoping to get to.   Michael Hingson ** 18:06 Well, so awards in general, it seems to me, create a lot of recognition. And you say that recognition has the power to make people unstoppable? Tell me a little bit more about them. What that means to you? Yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 18:24 absolutely. Um, something I call awards imposter syndrome, which is where, you know, often, and this typically is with entrepreneurs and smaller businesses. They they'll come to us and say, you know, I'd really love to get some recognition of my brand, but I really, I think we we're doing enough, or don't know if we're worth it or we could really stand out. And actually, you know, what we want to do is make them unstoppable. We we want them to see where all the power is in what they're doing and how they can make a difference in the world. So we will go and discover all of that about their business, and then help them to communicate it in a way that even now they can see what they're doing is brilliant. And then through that recognition, there's a lot of research to show the amount of motivation that awards bring to people, even more so than even a pay rise, you know. So through that recognition, it makes them feel more able. I always say to people you know, don't think about business awards right now. Think about the awards that you won when you were a child. Think about when you were at school and you entered awards in the swimming competitions or dancing competitions. Someone want someone told me today they won a competition for the best recorder player. I said I thought, I thought we had to ban recorders. But you know, when you got that recognition as a child, we didn't think, Oh, my goodness, I'm you know, do I really deserve it? I'm so shy. Let's not tell anyone about this recognition. We loved it, and it enabled us to go on and do more. So we want to do okay, we won that swimming competition. Let's do another swimming competition. Let's really learn our craft and do more and more of what we do better and better. Her and I liked people to try and think of that feeling that they had then and bring that into now with their business. You know, don't be humble about what you're doing, because the more that you can shout about your success, the more that you can help other people to achieve success through what you're doing, and the more you've got a platform to shine a spotlight on something that you believe in and that you want to make a difference in the world about. So, you know it, I call that, I say to people, you know, if you're feeling like a bit of an imposter about awards, one of the best things you can do is to create what we call a who wins when you win campaign. And what that is, is sort of putting a stake in the ground and making a pledge to say, when we win this award, we are going to go and do this great thing, and it might be we're going to go and do a team beach clean together. We're going to mentor some people. We're going to celebrate as a team and go out for the day, or we're going to plant some trees. You know, it could be anything that means something to you, but it's a really good opportunity to seal that recognition with something that reminds you that you are worth it and really helps you get over that imposter syndrome and celebrate your achievement.   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 I assume you also run into the other side of that, which are the people who just think by definition, because they are, whoever they are, they must deserve awards, whether, yeah, must be a lot of that. Yes. So   Donna O'Toole ** 21:27 a while back, because I'm a linguist, I interrogate language all the time. I can't help it. And I would look at, I judge a lot of award entries all from around the world. Judge the leading competitions in many countries. And I would look at these award entries, and I could tell what the person was thinking when they're writing the entry, as they're coming as you're reading it. And I developed these 10 personas of different types of people that enter awards. And so we've got everything from the imposter to the ostrich who wants to hide their head in the sand to the bridesmaid who's always the always, never quite makes it to the podium. And one of those actually is the peacock. And the peacock is the one who thinks they're going to win everything, and does come across like that, but isn't great about taking the feedback when they don't win.   Michael Hingson ** 22:20 Yeah, that's really the issue, isn't it? Right? It's they don't take the feedback, and they don't change what they do and why they do it and how they do it, to be a little bit more humble in what they're all about.   Donna O'Toole ** 22:33 Absolutely, absolutely. We've also got an awards persona called the politician, and that's somebody who doesn't answer any of the questions, and all their numbers don't add up.   Michael Hingson ** 22:46 Now, I wonder what my cat would think about awards. I wonder dogs are humble, but I don't know that cats are necessarily,   Donna O'Toole ** 22:56 yeah, they've definitely got a bit more persona going on, haven't they? I don't   Michael Hingson ** 23:01 know if they necessarily would be interested in awards, because they tend not to want to stand up in front of public and do stuff. That's   Donna O'Toole ** 23:07 true, that's true. Yeah, they're kind of yeah, they're their own creature, aren't they? They are, aren't they? I don't think they think they need awards, actually,   Michael Hingson ** 23:15 yeah, that's right. They don't think they need awards. They think that everybody should just recognize them for who they are,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:20 I might have to add a new persona to my league now.   Michael Hingson ** 23:26 Well, you know, there's, there's value in that, but, but still, so you've, you've helped a lot of people with awards. I wonder if you have a story that you could share where they've received recognition and it just completely changed their lives and what they did and what they do. Oh,   Donna O'Toole ** 23:49 so many, so many of those. Yeah. So, I mean, let's think of an example. So a few years ago, I was working, actually, it was interesting. I was I was introduced by on email, just to a gentleman called Andrew, who I was introduced by the Department of Trade and Industry here in the UK, who said he's got a great story. He's got a great business. He's growing fast. We think he should win some awards. We should talk to you. And so I was like, great. Let's get on a call, Andrew. And every time we booked a call, he didn't turn up to the call. And I thought, oh goodness, you know, it's like three attempts at this call and it's just not happening. And I just emailed him and said, look, it looks like you. Maybe you're not interested in winning awards, so, you know, catch up with me if you ever get the chance. And he emailed me back, actually, this is in the introduction of my books. And he emailed me back, and he said, Donna, I'm so so sorry. I'm going through a really difficult time at the moment. His wife had cancer. His son was being bullied at school, and he was really struggling, and he'd started a business that would have grown very quickly, whilst also as a side hustle, while. Also doing the job, and he was quite overwhelmed. And I said, he said, you know, and he actually said, so if I can't even turn up for a call, how could I possibly win an award? So I said, Oh, my goodness, okay, let me, let's get together, and I'll let you know whether you can win an award or not. But this is a big award we're talking about, because he'd actually been recommended to enter what was the Queen's Awards for Enterprise. It's now the king's Awards, which is the biggest and most prestigious business award in the UK, if not in the world. And I said, let's, you know, you've been recommended for this. Let's, let's at least explore it. So I went over to his house. We had a coffee, I went through everything of his business, and I said, You know what I do? Think you've got what it takes, but I don't think you're in the right mindset to be able to manage so let us help you. So he agreed, we worked on that project, and a year later, because that's how long it takes, I was absolutely delighted. He won the Queen's awards for innovation, and it was game changing for him. And what I really loved about it was, it's a couple of things. So one is because he's a techie person, and he had launched it was a software product that he'd developed. He'd put the logo for the award on his website, and he measured the impact that that was making on his website, which is really useful for me to know, because often people don't do that. And he got came back to me in a couple of months later, and he said, in three months, his sales have gone up by 30% because of the impact of winning this award. And you know, when you're running a business and you're trying to run a family and you've got other things going on that are really important, you need your sales to go up without you having to work harder, because it gives you the free time. It gives you the ability to employ people to support you. It gives you then the time back with your family when they need you most. So I was absolutely delighted for him that it had an impact on him and his business that would enable him to actually have the time that he needed with his family and help them and support them. So that was something that was game changing in my mind, for, you know, for a really personal reason. And I was delighted he was happy to share that in in my book. Yeah, so that that was a lovely one.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 So what is kind of the common thread? Or, how do you what is it you see in someone that makes them award winning, that that genuinely makes them award winning, as opposed to the politicians and peacock   Donna O'Toole ** 27:28 Okay, so what it is is they need to be making an impact in some way. And I think people tend to be quite fixated on on measuring or looking at their customer service, but I'm looking at their customer impact. So what their customer impact is that's something customer service is transactional, right? Customer impact is transformational. So what is it that you're doing that is making a difference or making life easier in some way for your customers? Or it is could be internal as well. So it could be your employees, for example, but generally it's impact. Now, with Andrew's story, the software that he developed, it was the first software that had the biggest ability to, I mean, I'm not a techie, so I'm probably describing this in the wrong way, the ability to display charts and graphs with the biggest amount of numbers. So we think, Okay, well, why is that important? Well, these are the graphs and the charts that are going into ECG machines in hospitals. These are going into universities to do research. You know? These are going into all sorts of things, stocks and shares. They're going into Formula One racing cars. There's so many, there's so much impact coming out from having designed that software that it's having an impact on us as humanity, and that's the kind of golden thread that you want in your award, is, what is the impact that you're having, and where can you show and prove that it's making a difference to someone, somehow, somewhere?   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 And I assume there are, we've talked about it, but I assume that there are a lot of people who are award winners who never, just never thought they would be, even though they're, they're perfectly capable and, oh yeah, they're deserving, but they, they don't, they're not doing it to seek the award. They're doing it to do what they want to do.   Donna O'Toole ** 29:18 Yeah, and they need, they need the recognition to shine that you know, 90% of businesses are small businesses now, and it's a very noisy world out there when you're trying to sell your products and services, you need to be able to do something that helps you to cut through and to get into customers minds and build trust. 85 Nielsen did a study 85% of customers now want to see credible awards on your website, on your products, before they will have the trust layer there to buy from you. What's really interesting is, years ago, we had, you remember when reviews came out? So Amazon was one of the first organizations to do reviews. I actually studied. Reviews and the mechanisms and language structures in them. And we all trusted reviews at the beginning, because, oh, great, you know, someone's going to tell us what their experience was of this thing, and we love it. And then as time went on and as the decades have progressed, we then learned not trust reviews, because it was like, Oh, hang on, they might be fake reviews, or, you know, that could be a competitor, putting a bad review on a competitor. So there's lots of reasons then not to trust reviews. So then we go, oh, well, what do we trust? Then we can't just trust what the business is telling us. We need something that's external, that's third party, and that's going to enable us to trust that brand. And then what we saw then is the pandemic happened, and we all went to shopping online. We all went to living online, and we all saw businesses fall apart and lose money who we never expected to because they didn't have the digital transformation turn around quick enough, or for whatever reason, there was a lot of businesses that suffered in the pandemic, and a lot thrived, and since that then, it was almost like awards and reviews together became even more important to all of us, because we needed something to help us to trust the brands other than, you know, the strongest referral, which is a word of mouth referral. So if you haven't had a word of mouth referral and you've gone online and you found something through a search, how do you know whether you can trust putting your money into that business to buy its products or services? So this is really where we come back to recognition, to say, Well, no, this is a this brand gives excellent customer service, or this brand is a great place to work. It really looks after its employees. So there's a huge amount of reasons now why businesses do awards to demonstrate they are trustworthy in so many ways like nowadays. You know, we live in a world where employees want to work for organizations that will look after them and that will treat them well, so that employees looking for jobs will go out looking for the businesses that have got a great place to work accreditation or award because it makes them trust that they're going to be looked after. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 32:08 it's interesting. Nielsen did a study back in 2016 regarding brand brand loyalty and disabilities, and what they found was that people with disabilities are at least 35% more likely to stay with an organization and buy from an organization that has done things like really taken the Time to make their websites accessible and to make their their environment welcoming to people with disabilities, because it is so hard to oftentimes deal with companies they're they're companies that that I deal with their websites. They're just not accessible, and they don't want to change, and it's not magic to make them accessible, but they don't, and then there are other companies that do, and I agree with the Nielsen study. It makes perfect sense, because the reality is, you're going to steal with companies that that really take the time to show that they value you being there, yeah,   Donna O'Toole ** 33:17 well, it's interesting, actually, because I've been looking at this in the awards industry and accessibility, and it's something that I'm passionate about as well. And so we've just written a white paper, we've just done some research, commissioned some research, and we've just written a white paper on accessibility and awards, because we want people to be recognized, whatever, whoever, whatever they do, it shouldn't be saved for anyone who isn't, you know, doesn't have a disability or can't access their forms. You know, it should be open to absolutely everybody. So we've been looking into that now and seeing, you know, what is it that we can do to influence the industry to be more accessible and to really share recognition for all?   Michael Hingson ** 33:59 Yeah, well, and, and it's important, I think, to do that, because there have been enough statistics to show that roughly 25% of the population has some sort of a disability in the traditional sense of the word. Now, I have a different view than that. I believe that everyone on the planet has a disability, and for most people, their disability is you're light dependent. You don't do well in the dark, and if suddenly you're in a building and the power goes out or whatever, you scramble around trying to find a light source or a smartphone or a flashlight or whatever. But the reality is that all those light sources do is cover up your disability. On the other hand, I do recognize that there are people. We're in a minority by any standard, because we are, we are not the traditional, if you will, person. We do tend to be blind, or we tend to be deaf or hard of hearing, or we tend to be low vision, or we don't walk, and there are fewer of. Less than there are of the rest of you light dependent people, and so you don't recognize the disability that's there. But it's, it's important, I think, for people to recognize it. Because in reality, when people suddenly realize, Oh, I've got my own challenges, then you get to be more aware of and want to, at least a lot of times, think about ways to make the world a more inclusive place overall.   Donna O'Toole ** 35:27 I think that's such a great way of looking at it, and it really helps immediately. I couldn't see exactly what you you're saying is, yeah, 100% as soon as the lights go out, I'm completely incapable of knowing what to do next. So, yeah, you're absolutely right.   Michael Hingson ** 35:44 Yeah, it is. It is one of those things that we just don't deal with enough. But nevertheless, it's, it's there. So there, there are a lot of reasons to to deal with access, and that's why I work with a company called accessibe that has been they started smaller and narrower in scope, but they have become very robust in doing things to make the internet a more inclusive place. And so one of the things that they've learned is you can't do it all with AI, although AI can help. And so there are so many things to be done, but the reality is, there are a lot of different kinds of disabilities that really need the Internet to and website creators to pay attention to their needs, to make sure that they, in fact, do what's necessary to make the web accessible to those people. It's a challenge.   Donna O'Toole ** 36:40 It is, and we're going through that challenge at the moment, actually. So I'm just launching a new business, and it's called, it's an AI platform that's going to enable people to do exactly what we do as an agency, find, enter and win awards, but on a platform that is accessible to everybody. So it's aI enabled. But obviously, as you exactly say, that's not the end of the story. So there's a lot of work to do, and we're doing lots of research to find out what we need to do to make sure that that is accessible to everybody, because we want to enable more people to have a good chance of getting the recognition they deserve through a platform that enables them to do that, rather than perhaps miss out on really vital recognition that could help to promote what they do just because they can't access it.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 Yeah, well, and it happens way too, way too often. Yeah. And it's not like it's magical to make the web more inclusive. It's just that a lot of people don't know how to do it. Although the information is readily available, they just don't consider it a priority.   Donna O'Toole ** 37:48 Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we're really putting this front and center. My business partner is Daniel Priestley. He's just been on the driver CEO actually talking about the AI side of it. So together, we're really working at trying to join all the dots so that we get all the right technologies in there and ways of working. So I'll be getting you beta testing that. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 38:14 absolutely. And if there's any way to help, I am very happy to help. Thank you. So Don't, don't hesitate to reach out. So we will. We've now said that publicly for the whole world, that's all right. So what do you say to the person who says winning an award is just not for   Donna O'Toole ** 38:33 me? I think often, you know, I was thinking about this earlier, actually, and I was thinking, you know, there's different things that we're all in favor of and all not in favor of most of the time, when I come across people who say a winning awards is not, for me, is they either haven't been involved in an awards process before, or they feel a bit shy of it and like a bit of an imposter. And, you know, it's a risk, isn't it? You're putting yourself up to be judged, ultimately. So it does take a bit of courage, and it takes a bit of reflection. So, you know, I say, Look at what impact you're having, you know, go away and see, have you got impact on your customers? Somehow, have you got impact on your community? Somehow? It doesn't all have to be about transactional business. It could be that actually you're doing something great for the environment or sustainability or for a community source or for charity, you know, so what are you doing that's making a difference, and it could recognition help you to do more of that? Could it give you the spotlight to enable you to do more of that purpose? Because if it could, then why not, you know, why not do it and get some recognition?   Michael Hingson ** 39:36 Yeah, well, and that makes sense. And but some people may still just continue to say, well, I don't really think I've done that much, and so it isn't for me.   Donna O'Toole ** 39:47 Yeah, absolutely. And you'll always have people who don't want to do everything at the end of the day, you know, it's probably, realistically, it's probably, you know, the top 10% of businesses that are looking to win awards because they're already in that zone or. Where they're, you know, they're growing, they're they're trying to transform. They're always jumping on the next best thing. So, you know, it's a good way to benchmark ourselves as well, and to say, you know, how can I progress this year? Well, what would it take for me to win this particular award? Let's say, let's have a look at what it would take, and let's see if we can get to the business, to that stage, because that way you can develop the business first, before you even think of entering the award, so that you have got the impact, and you have got, you know, all the right things to show that you're making a difference.   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 Yeah, and you brought up a point earlier, which I think is extremely interesting, the whole issue of awards and reviews, one of the things that I do when I'm looking at buying a product that I'm not overly familiar with is I love to look at the worst reviews for the product. Yeah, they're the most fun, because you find out really quickly. If you look at those reviews, you find out whether the person really knows what they're talking about or not and whether they really got good arguments. And I find that the people who give the bad reviews generally are, are not, are not necessarily, really giving you substantive information that you can use.   Donna O'Toole ** 41:15 Yeah, exactly. That's often the way I am. I actually studied reviews, and I looked at the different language structures and reviews of different retail stores, and how, how the the language that the people used in their reviews influenced the buyers. And it was really funny, because this is back in the days. This is just when I was at university. I was doing my dissertation, and it was what we were looking for. What I was looking for was what represent, what people felt represented good value for money. Because no matter how much money you've got, whether you've got a pound to spend or 1000 pounds to spend, you just want to get good value for money for what you're spending. So it doesn't really matter how pricey the product is. It matters your perception of good value for money, and that's essentially what tends to come across in a review, even if people don't say it is whether they think it's good value for money or not, whether it's the brand or the actual product. And it was really funny, because I did this whole study, and I came up with a structure that retailers should use to give to their reviewers to then put the review in in the most helpful way possible for the people then looking at the reviews who want to purchase the product, and I it was great, and I was really happy with it, and got first class and all of that. Anyway, a while later, I bought a coat from a store called Debenhams in the UK, which is now only online. But I bought this coat, I wrote a review and put it on their website. And it was quite the early days of reviews. Still, two days later, Debenhams called me, and I couldn't believe it, because when you had to leave your review, you had to leave your name and number, and it was like, I said, it's a very new thing then. And they actually telephoned me, and they said, Hello, we want to say thank you for your review that you left about this coat, and I still have the coat. And because, because of your review, we sold out the product. And so we want to say thank you. So we're sending you a voucher. And I got this voucher through the post. And I mean, you wouldn't get that, I don't think nowadays, no, but it really showed me the difference that a review could make on a product back then, you know, and how writing the right type of review, not just saying it's great, but why it's great, why I considered it good value for money about the material and the sizing and the shape and all of the quality and that kind of thing. It gave people reassurance to buy, and that's what we're looking for when we're looking at reviews. And that's where awards can come in and kind of secure that trust as well. I don't know about you, but I get down rabbit holes with reviews on things like trip,   Michael Hingson ** 43:52 oh yeah. Well, what I found is, if I look at the positive, the best reviews, I get more good technical information, and I got and I get more good product knowledge, but then I look at the bad reviews, and the reason I look at those is I want to see if they truly are giving me the same information the other way, and they don't. They're it's totally emotional, and a lot of times it is just not, in fact, what I or others find with the products, and that the bad reviews tend not to really give you nearly the information that the bad reviewers think they're giving you if you if you read them carefully. And I think that gets back to your whole issue of studying language, but still, they're not giving you the information that they really ought to be giving you. And, you know, I've had some where somebody gave a bad review to a product because the box arrived and it was open or wasn't sealed. Well, yeah, all right, so what   Donna O'Toole ** 44:55 exactly I know it's ridiculous. I mean, I think we're as consumers a bit more. Pragmatic about it nowadays, but as businesses, we need to be able to demonstrate to our customers in every way possible, you know. And that's why social media now and user generated content is so popular. Because we don't want to see what it looks like on a model anymore. We want to see what it looks like on a real life, personal we want to hear someone's like real life, day to day experience of something, as opposed to a polished article on it, right,   Michael Hingson ** 45:26 which, which is, is the way it ought to be. And again, that gets back to substance. And the the people who give really good reviews are generally the ones that are giving you substance. I've had some bad reviewers that had very good reasons for why they feel the way they do. And then you look at it and you go, Well, maybe it doesn't fit in their situation or, aha, they really know what they're talking about. I'm going to take that into consideration when I look at buying this product or not. But a lot of them   Donna O'Toole ** 45:57 don't. Absolutely, no, absolutely, yeah, I could do this for days.   Michael Hingson ** 46:04 Yeah. Well, it is. It is fascinating, but it's part of human nature   Donna O'Toole ** 46:09 psychology, isn't I tell you when else it comes up and it's quite interesting. So often we make companies may approach us and say, Leo, we want to win awards to be the best place to work. And we'll say, okay, great, you know, tell us about the workplace, and we'll go through all these different criteria with them, and they tell us all this great stuff. And then we go and do our own research as well, because we need to verify this, right? And we go on to glass door, and then we see some horrendous reviews from employees that have left. I think, okay, maybe this is, maybe this is not quite all the story we're getting here. Yeah. So, you know, the thing with awards is, if you are saying anything about your business, you're going to have to prove it. So reviews from your customers and reviews from your employees are super important for awards. Actually,   Michael Hingson ** 46:59 I find as a speaker that letters of recommendation are extremely important. In fact, I even put it in my contract that if someone likes the talk, then I expect to get a letter of recommendation. And for a good amount of people, they do that, although I've had some people who forget or just don't. But the letters are extremely valuable, especially when they go into detail about not just the talk, but like in my case, I view when I visit a customer, or when I view when I talk about going to speak somewhere, I believe that I'm a guest like anyone who goes, and it's not about me, it's about them. It's about the event. It's about the people who are putting it on. It's about the audience. And I always want to make sure that I do everything I can to be as not a problem as possible. And I know that there are some people that don't do that. I had a I had an event once where I went and spoke, and while there, I talked to the person who brought me in, and I said, What's the most difficult speaker you ever had? Had come here? And I was just curious. I was curious to see what he say without any hesitation. He said, We had a woman who came to speak, and we honored the contract, although still don't know why, but she insisted that in the green room, and so there had to be one, but in the green room there had to be a brand new, never used crystal champagne flute full of pink M M's. Now what does that have to do with being a speaker? Well, I know some people just like to take people through the wringer. They want to try to drive the point home that they're the bosses. Well, I think that, you know, I know what I can do. What I said to the guy, though afterward I said, Well, okay, I hear you. They actually did find peak Eminem. So was interesting. I said, Well, let me just tell you that if you bring cheese and crackers, I'll share them with you.   49:10 They brought you that we had fun, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 but, you know, but, but he, he understood that there were no demands. I wouldn't do that. I just think that that's not what I'm supposed to do as a speaker. My job is to in a well, inspire and motivate and and to educate. But it's not my job to be difficult. And I've gotten some wonderful letters that say how easy I made it to work with them, which is great. Yeah, fantastic. I'm sure you did. So it's, it's a lot of fun to to see some of those, and I've gotten some great stories over the years, which is really   Speaker 1 ** 49:46 a lot, and that's why they love to have you. Well, I hope so   Michael Hingson ** 49:53 we still do it, and it's a lot of fun to help and motivate and inspire. But yeah, I. I and by the way, I guess I'd never be interested in pink M M's anyway, so I wouldn't see the colors. So,   Donna O'Toole ** 50:08 yeah, glass of water is just about the thing on my list.   Michael Hingson ** 50:12 Yeah, well, you know, I'll take M M's if they show up. And I'm not going to demand them, that's okay. But you know, people are interesting. So once somebody's won an award, you've talked about this some, but when I once somebody has won an award, what's next?   Donna O'Toole ** 50:28 So next, it's all about, well, sharing it to demonstrate why people often forget to tell people why they've won an award. They just say that they've won an award. I think it's important to say, why? Like, what is it? What is it? What impact are you having? What's the difference that you're making out there in the world? Why have you won and share that on your profile? As I said, you know, people buy from people now as well. If you're winning an award as a leader or as a speaker or as an entrepreneur, you know people want to know about that because it helps to give credibility to what you do and trust like, just like those letters of referral that you're talking about. So, you know, get that on your LinkedIn profile, get it onto your podcast, you know, all of those different things, and take pride in your work and share that   Michael Hingson ** 51:14 I had a salesperson I hired is my favorite sales guy, and when I asked him, as I asked everybody who came to apply for jobs, what are you going to be selling for us? Tell me about that. He is the only person who ever said, The only thing I really have to sell is myself and my word. Your product is stuff, and it's all about trust and it's all about honoring my word. And he said, The only thing I asked from you is that you backed me up. And I said, well, as long as you do a good job, you know, but he understood it, and he's actually the only person that I ever hired that really articulated that, but that was always the answer I was looking for, because it really told me a lot about him. Just that simple answer told me more about him than anything else anyone, even he could say,   Donna O'Toole ** 52:06 yeah, absolutely. So it's so important, and you know, so I'm part of a key person of influence program that Daniel Priestley runs, and it's I do profile coaching for entrepreneurs to help them to become a key person of influence in their in their industry. And now that's not being an influencer. That's being someone who's known for being good at what they do and being a key person in that industry. And you know, work flows to you if people know what you do and know who to come to because you're the expert in that area, if you're a small business, you're an entrepreneur, you're struggling to get leads, then actually maybe you need to make yourself put bit more known. People tend to be bit shy and hide behind their brand. But you know, if you look at people like Richard Branson, you know, we when you trust an entrepreneur, then you will buy from the brand. And there's many more entrepreneurs I could mention, who when the trust is lost with them because of their behavior in some way, then their brand suffers. It's quite clear to see, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:09 do you find that most people who win an award do carry on and do positive things as a result, and that their brand and what they do improves, or is some people win and just falls by the wayside.   Donna O'Toole ** 53:27 Generally speaking, if you're the people that are going in for awards, the brands that are going forwards, they're progressive, so they usually progress with it. There's a piece of research that shows that businesses that have won awards are around 77% more valuable than businesses without awards even five years after winning. And that's because when you're going for an award in business, you've got to do a lot of develop. You know, there's got to be some good stuff happening in your business. And so naturally, the businesses that are doing those good things want to keep doing more of those good things internally, and so they tend to keep driving the business forward. And they have that motivation. They have motivated teams who are being recognized for the work that they're doing, and all of that naturally pushes them forward. So in five years time, they're still leagues ahead of their competitors that are not winning awards.   Michael Hingson ** 54:20 So always worth exploring winning awards. Oh, 100% Yeah. If   Donna O'Toole ** 54:27 I always say, I think, quote Nelson Mandela on this, you've got nothing to lose. You'll either win or you'll learn. If you don't win, then you should learn something about what you do need to do to win, and that will bring your business on.   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 Absolutely agree it's like, I also believe there's no such thing as failure. Failure is really it didn't go the way you planned. And so what do you learn in order to make that not happen again?   Donna O'Toole ** 54:51 Yeah, exactly, that exactly. So we need that kind of resilience in business today,   Michael Hingson ** 54:57 if people listening and watching this. Just take away one lesson and get one piece of advice out of this. What should it be?   Donna O'Toole ** 55:04 Understand your impact? I would say people don't often understand their impact. So ask your customers, ask your employees, what's improved since we've been working together? What? What if? What's improved for you since you've been using our product? And then calculate up what is that impact that you're having? You know, if 90% of your customers are saying that since using your product, I don't know, they're they're they're having a better their their accounts are better, or their skin is better. You whatever it is your product or your service is, then you've got impact that you're having. So start investigating what that impact is, and then that will help to steer you towards which kind of awards you could potentially be winning as well.   Michael Hingson ** 55:47 And of course, if you really think about your impact and whoever you are and whatever business you're doing, and you do monitor that, then that's one of the most important things that you can do about your business anyway, and people should be doing that.   Donna O'Toole ** 56:01 Yeah, exactly. But probably 90% of people that come to me aren't measuring their impact, and so it's a surprise, but I always say, Well, if you don't know what your impact is, how do you know that what your product or your services works? Just because people are buying it, you still need to know what your impact is. How do you measure impact? Oh, you can measure it in so many different ways, and you want in awards to be able to demonstrate it both quantitatively and qualitatively. So typically, in large corporate organizations, they will be measuring impact. So there's something called net promoter scores. So, you know, they'll be asking customers, would they recommend them? They'll ask them what they're enjoying about their products and things. So they tend to have some kind of measurement built into their process, in their customer departments, however, in smaller businesses, often they don't. So I say, you know, draw up a simple survey, ask your customers what's changed since you've been working with us. Let's say you're a service provider. So are you less stressed since you've been working with us? Do you have more revenue coming in since you've been working with us? What is it? And get them to answer a little survey. And then you could go all this collective impact that you can put together to look at the percentages and see what that's telling you. And if you don't want to know what the impact is in your business, then I question why you don't want to why   Michael Hingson ** 57:16 you're in the business in the first place, exactly. Well, tell us about your book. You've mentioned books several times, yeah.   Donna O'Toole ** 57:23 So I wrote a book called Win, of course, raise your profile and grow your business through winning awards. And really, it's a toolkit for for entrepreneurs. I was working with a lot of large businesses, and, you know, I was conscious that small businesses don't always have the resources to win awards or to be able to outsource. So I wrote a book that they could use to follow the toolkit, essentially, of winning awards. So that's developing their strategy, knowing understanding how awards work and which ones would suit their business, setting awards goals, understanding criteria. What does innovation really mean? What do they want to see? What kind of evidence do I need to provide? How do I know if it's the right race for me? All of those things. So it takes you end to end, through the awards journey internationally. You know, no matter where you are, you can follow the same process, and you could nowadays, it's really important to become the most award winning in your sector, so you can follow the process to get there. And that's a hugely valuable tagline.   Michael Hingson ** 58:26 And I appreciate that you sent us a picture of the book cover, and it is in the show notes. I hope people will go get   Donna O'Toole ** 58:31 it absolutely and it is on Audible as well, so that everyone can access it. So yeah, enjoy listening to my voice a lot more.   Michael Hingson ** 58:39 I was just going to ask if you read it. I did read it for you.   Donna O'Toole ** 58:44 Do you know what it was? I was so proud of that I was more proud of the audible recording than I was of writing at the book. But I don't know why. I think it's because I actually really enjoy listening to books on audio. So I'm quite passionate about listening. I like listening to the actual author's voice, though. So I found I was quite interesting, actually, when I found, when I recorded it, that was quite good at recording audio. The studio guy that I was working with was like, Oh, you're really good at this. We could just drop it words back in if there was a mistake.   Michael Hingson ** 59:14 There you are. See, it is so much better to edit today than it used to be, because now it is. It is all electronic, and I, I edit from time to time, just different things and all that I don't we work on not editing the podcast. That is, I don't want to cut out part of a conversation, because it is a conversation, but, but now you can do so many things, like, if there's a lot of noise, you can even filter that out without affecting the camera. It is so cool.   Donna O'Toole ** 59:43 Yeah, very, very clever. So, yeah, get it on Audible. There you   Michael Hingson ** 59:47 go. Well, great. Well, I hope people will Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and you should get an award for doing it. That's all there is to it. But I really appreciate you being here. And. I appreciate all of you out there listening to us and watching us. Love to get your thoughts. How do people reach out to you? Donna, if they'd like to to talk with you,   Donna O'Toole ** 1:00:09 absolutely. So you can con

This week, we're tackling Catherine's fantastic questions about visiting Disneyland Paris with mobility challenges - perfect for first-timers navigating DLP's accessibility! More In This Episode:

Kristy and Tiff discuss the new treatments they're seeing practices adopt these days and how to successfully start the process (if you want to). They touch on the best ways to gauge interest, training and implementation tips to start off, how to track results, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are so happy to be back here with you. We are recording today from the comfort of our own homes with the ACs blasting. I am about to bust out my fan. is on the charger right now. I don't know if you know this or not, but Kristy and I come to you from the sweltering desert of Phoenix, Arizona. And I have to say, I'm crazy. My boyfriend is like, it is hot. We're getting out of here. We're moving to Prescott. And one day I'm sure we will, but.   I love where I live and every time I go travel to an office and I'm gone for like a week, I'll see two, three offices at a time. I come back in and just coming into Tempe on that plane over in the mountains, you can see the Buttes, you can see South Mountain, you can see the city and just like the buzz of it all makes me so incredibly happy every single time. I love where I live. I cannot at this point in my life imagine living anywhere else. So when I say that out loud,   People think I'm crazy. And I'm like, listen, it's beautiful here. My best friend, bless her heart, she's like, Tiff, it's brown. It's all desert. And I'm like, it's not. Do you see these colors, like the saguaros and the pink flowers that bloom and the yellows? And like, I don't know, Kristy, am I crazy? Or what are your thoughts? You came back to Arizona. So obviously, there's something to be told about that.   DAT Kristy (01:25) It's too funny that you say that because it's so true. I'm you know when I moved to Idaho everybody's like Arizona it's a desert and I'm like but there's desert here. I have to agree the Arizona desert is much prettier. ⁓ Southwestern Idaho is very deserty and we're talking brown. There's where the brown is but Arizona desert is very beautiful. Even this time of year like come on Palo Verde's aren't brown they're green.   The Dental A Team (01:35) Yeah.   Yeah.   Bye.   Right? Literally   in their name, right? Palo Verde. My boyfriend always says, yeah, Arizona is like so inventive, the green stick. And I'm like, well, it's green. It is green, okay? That's our state tree and it's green. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I just think it's beautiful. And there's nothing like a desert rain. I know that sounds so cliche. Everyone says it, everyone hears it, but I swear to you, the smell in the desert after a good rain or even a light sprinkling is magical.   There is something about it that just changes the composition of your body and you become a much happier individual. just, can't be, you can't be angry in the desert rain. So.   DAT Kristy (02:33) agree with you Tiff   and if you and I can figure out a way to bottle that stuff I've always said we'd be millionaires.   The Dental A Team (02:39) Yeah, well, you know,   I just, my friend just told me this a couple months ago. There's actually a bush out there. I need to just take a picture of it and figure out what it is. We were hiking one day. There's a bush out there that you, when you pick the leaf and you like put it between your fingers, it smells like the desert rain. I'll find it. Yeah, I'll find it and take a picture. I don't know what the bush is, but I'll find it and take a picture and Google it so that we can, we could bottle it. My point there. Yeah. I actually had a friend in town.   DAT Kristy (03:02) Yeah.   The Dental A Team (03:06) Um, he lives in North Carolina and he was visiting and he was like, I'm taking some of this home so that other people can smell it. Cause it is incredible. And I'm like, yep, that's what Arizona desert rain smells like. So anyways, everybody who wants to come visit, we are here for it. We aren't taking any new visitors like to stay. I'm just kidding. You can move here. It's just, it's just getting crowded, you know, but visitors are welcome. Come.   share in the heat. I know most people come in the month of February for the Waste Management Open and you just let us know when we're here and Kristy and I will pop over and say a little hello to you. So Kristy, getting on to business, I love talking about Arizona and I would do it forever, ⁓ but we're kind of rounding out the year right now. We're heading into quarter four. This is the time of year I'm like, well,   we can still make massive movements, we can still make massive changes and hit those goals, but really we need to start thinking about what are we doing ⁓ after these goals are hit. So lot of people don't think about the next year, which is 2026 until December, but I'd like to start talking about it here in August. So one of those pieces, Kristy, I really wanted to chat today about offices that we've seen implement new treatment. And I know right now, ⁓ fillers, Botox, I've seen   a ton of practices doing like facial aesthetics and the lasers and I don't even know what they're called the ones and like all of these amazing things and takes me back to when I was ⁓ working in office gosh when I first started I was like 19 and my doctor's like where are those paraffin wax things can we get those and I was like you're crazy we are not a spa like we're not doing paraffin wax for our patients I have enough to do   chair side, have enough to clean up, we're not doing this, right? But he really wanted it and so we did at least, we did warm towels. So it's like, I can handle warm towels, it's all you got. But now, there is really like this spa aesthetic feel to a lot of dental practices. And I know there's plenty of us out there that are like, no, not doing that. I am a dig my heels in kind of girl. So I dig my heels in until the very end. But I'm kind of getting on board with it. I kind of like it. And it's adding a different sense and a different value.   And honestly, I love marketing and it's adding a different marketing avenue because it's a different demographic of people who can come for the aesthetic side and see, I love these people. Let me switch my dental as well. They may not, that's okay. They may love their dentist. But if you can come to one place and get multiple things, that's kind of cool. So, Kristy, I just wanted to chat a little bit about some of the things that we've seen. We've worked, you guys, just so you know, we worked with a ton of practices on adding aesthetics.   Botox fillers, ⁓ implants, just like simple single tooth implants, multi-tooth implants, all on fours. Gosh, what else? Orthodontics, making sure that the marketing is there, making sure that the treatment coordinating aspect is there, making sure that case acceptance is working, the schedule is working, the block scheduling. We have helped implement this in so many practices. So as we're talking today, just know we're speaking from that implementation experience and what we've seen really work for practices.   from our experience working one-on-one with doctors. If you're someone who's looking to implement new products or new services in your practice and you're not really sure on the how-to, please reach out. We would love to help you on a one-on-one basis. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Again, we have a ton of experience in this. have five experienced consultants ready to work one-on-one with you. ⁓ Kristy, Monica, and Trish are...   freaking incredible you guys. I have just seen them move mountains for clients in very short amount of time. if you are ready to take that step, let us know. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. But Kristy, I know you've had a lot of clients. You've actually had, you've had some fun clients that I can think of off the top of my head that are kind of fresh and new and starting out. And I know one in particular I can think.   probably is this like go-getter wants to add everything, wants to take all the CE, wants to implement everything and wants to just run with it. And then you've got some others that are like, I'm going to like take my time. I'm going to buy it my time. I'm to take the CE. Maybe in a couple of years, we'll be able to implement it. Like there's like such drastic differences there, but what kind of ⁓ procedures have you seen implemented recently? And what do you feel like your clients are doing really well?   to implement them within their practice with your support.   DAT Kristy (07:45) Well.   like you, the med spa thing has really taken off in dentistry. So adding in the Botox, the laser ⁓ and sleep, even for little kiddos, the tongue ties has been an area of exploration. with that being said, Tiff, think first and foremost, yes, you're right. I have one client that's kind of a go getter and and honestly him bringing the energy has worked really well for him because his excitement is   driving it, right? But one thing that I would say in the very beginning, if you're exploring this and you aren't that go getter, energetic, I'm going to do this attitude and you're kind of thinking about it, start to take a pulse with your patients. know, explore, hey, if we offered this service, is this something you'd be interested in? See if people are interested in it because you may be leaving room on the table, right?   And maybe you'll find out they're not interested and it will drive you in a different direction But with that being said, like I said take a pulse of your own patients, but I also doctors recommend that you ⁓ Get your admin team ⁓ Keeping a list of things that patients are calling in and asking for and they have to say no we don't do that because that's an area of opportunity that perhaps if you have a hundred people calling and asking   The Dental A Team (09:10) That's a great idea.   Yeah.   That's a great idea. I have never in my life thought of that. That's beautiful. I love that you said to ask the patients themselves as well. If I started offering this, is this something you'd be interested in? And that one's kind of an easy one when it comes to like Botox and things like that, because you can tell when someone has utilized that procedure before. So I've even had doctors say, where are you going for your Botox? Like, do you like where you go? Are you happy there? What are they doing well that keeps you coming back? even as far   is   to ask what they're paying because it really helps them to figure out.   how they can generate that within their own practice based on a scale of like, know, chatting with a couple of different patients, because you really can tell fillers as well. And all of that stuff, you guys, to be redone at some point. So I think that's a great idea. apnea is huge. I think the kiddo stuff is massive. I have a couple of doctors, couple of doctors, but then also I have a GP doctor that does a ton within the lip tie, the sleep apnea, all of those pieces for the toddlers and children.   She's so passionate about it that her team is behind her as well on it. So I think that's a really good point. And I think, Kristy, something you touched on was that passion and how excited that specific doctor we're thinking of is about everything he does, everything he does he's excited for. And so I just feel like walking into his practice, you're just amped up. Like the energy's got to be so high. But for...   everyone no matter what anytime you go take a CE, anytime you have an idea, anytime you're like I want to implement this and you go get trained on it, I think the biggest missing piece that I've always seen myself as a consultant and then myself even as a dental assistant or for an office is that information lapse between you taking the course and coming back with the information and that ⁓   I get from a business standpoint and a doctor's standpoint, it's hard to take your team to the CE with you. And sometimes it's not even offered to bring your team. So I get that, but that's where training comes into play. And I think that's where having someone on your side, a coach and a consultant, someone who's working hand in hand with the team who really can help create protocols, who can help with the verbiage because you're over there implementing. And I don't know, Kristy, if you've ever experienced this, I remember my doctor, he would get so deflated.   because he'd go do this thing, he'd be rammed up sleep. He wanted to sleep so badly and I hope to this day that he's doing it, but it was so difficult and we didn't get the training, we didn't get the courses, he was training us which was great, but it was like also we are doing everything we were doing before you took this course. So the space for me to learn how to add this, for me to take the time out of my day,   to implement this just isn't always there. And so the space to do the training is sometimes lacking if you can't take your team with you. So I know I've got a practice that I've helped a ton with sleep just in general at their practice because they needed the protocols put in place, but they didn't have the time to even sit down and type them. So it was like,   We're going to do this together real quick. Our tips got these ideas. We've got templates that we utilize with our clients that we're like, hey, these are my ideas. And we go back and forth. And we figure out what's working, what's not working. And Kristy, I know you've done that too. What have you seen work really well with practices for that training and implementation?   DAT Kristy (12:57) It's kind of funny because the ways you're talking I'm thinking of a client right now that literally just went she did take her team to Vegas for clear liner course and Thank goodness. were blessed to go right because you're you're right getting the whole team behind them and the energy coming back in is huge the energy really does propel the momentum as you're Trying to ramp up and to your point not everybody can take the whole team So so I get that yet if you can get one or two chances   to go and help you wonderful. If not, would definitely recommend coming back and having the conversation and have doctors speak to their why. You know, why do they want to implement this? What is their vision for it? And then create benchmarks. Like how will we implement this and what can we do? So if we want to do more clear aligners, what is   The Dental A Team (13:37) Yeah.   video.   DAT Kristy (13:56) something we can do every day to help that outcome, right? Is it add one more scan to a patient? You know, get those commitments from team and buy in and then have fun with it. We're always talking about the sprinkles and adding the fun. So find a way to gamify it. And if I do this action every day, it's going to create a better chance of my outcome, right?   The Dental A Team (14:00) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah,   yeah, and to that point, you're then tracking your results, right? Which is something that we have all of our practices tracking their results consistently for that reason, because we want to see the things that you're doing every day. Are they creating the result that you wanted? Are we moving closer to the goal that you were set after? Or are we moving further away from it? Because then we can see what we want to tweak or change or what needs to be added. And then again, to your point as well, what's one thing that we can add?   A lot of times we come in with all of the things and it's like, that's too much and we can't process it all. So if you do that, like one thing, so for sleep apnea or Botox or any of those spaces or though it's like, what's one thing you would change aesthetically if you had the opportunity? Like what's one question? You can start asking every patient that walks through your door. Do you find yourself waking up a lot at night? Do you find yourself, know, do your partner say that you're snoring?   Do you have a hard time falling asleep? Do you have a hard time waking up? What are the key factors? What's one question, two questions you add onto it? How can we layer this and stack to get things done? And like you said, maybe we're taking one more scan today than we took yesterday. We're gamifying it, we're tracking the results, and we're making sure that it's fitting. And that's something that I think as consultants, we've been able to really help teams get excited about.   and really be able to help them break it down because for doctors, for our visionaries, it's sometimes difficult for a visionary to see the path. They see the end result. They see what it is that they're after. They see the dream and the finality. We have to take it layers backwards and say, how do we get there?   The visionaries have a hard time figuring out how we're going to get there. And when they're the only ones who are trying to figure that out or there's no one on the team that's like, okay, I got it. I will figure it out from here. That's where the consultants come into play or training office managers to see that space to say, okay, what are the steps it's going to take to get there? And how do we incrementally layer and add onto those steps to ensure that we do? So, Kristy, I think you're hitting some massive spaces there.   with the tracking the results, the just one thing and making sure that we are training the team as we can. I also think don't wait too long.   If you've gone to a course and you've learned something, you need to start practicing it because you learned it. And then if you're waiting a year to implement it, you're going to need to go back for a refresher course because you haven't been doing it. And I've seen that happen. I don't know if you have. I've seen that happen, especially with like Botox, where they go get the training, but they're just like dragging their feet, probably out of fear and actually implementing it. And then they're like, well, shoot, I need to go get a refresher course because I haven't done it since I did it at   my training. Have you seen that too, Kristy?   DAT Kristy (17:27) Absolutely.   I love that you mentioned that because I think one realm where we're really good at this if you think about it is ⁓ Milling same-day crowns because they force you to find patients, right? They're like, okay have your patients lined up because we're gonna do it in those other realms We don't necessarily do that. So a component that I think we miss a lot is we plan the CE we schedule it we go the course But we didn't block out time to meet with team coming back, right?   The Dental A Team (17:36) Yeah. ⁓   Yeah.   DAT Kristy (17:57) So make sure that time dedicate the time to make sure it happens and Hey, let's line up the patients. Let's get them in the chair and start because you're right Otherwise, we just get back into routine and it's gone to the wayside and you know See is wonderful and it's all knowledge. But unless we're interpreting it into something It's just money spent right? Yeah   The Dental A Team (18:22) Agreed. Yeah, agreed.   And it makes me think of two of ⁓   Like you said, they tell you to have patients ready for the crowns, but same thing for implants, right? Same thing for Botox, same thing for any of those, but implants especially. I always tell doctors, before you go to the course, I say take inventory, look at how many outgoing referrals you had to oral surgeons. How much revenue did you feed oral surgeons in your area of that thing that you're going for? Because they have had practices in areas of their city   that it was like it didn't make sense financially to implement the thing because they weren't getting it in their doors, right? They were a younger demographic, they were college demographic, and they really just weren't getting a lot of need for the implants or for whatever it was that they were looking at. And so they actually decided, you know what, like that was just, there's so much that we see that we're supposed to do. ⁓   like all on four, all on X. Like there's so many GP dentists that are like, well, I just felt like I heard that that was what was going to change my life forever. And I'm like, yes, in a lot of ways, it's really hard. So don't do things just because it's what you're supposed to do. And it's like the next best up and coming thing. Cause I have seen doctors who have taken inventory and they're like, actually, like I was going to do it because I thought I needed to, but I don't think my patient demographic shows me that I need to. I may actually focus   in on this and they switched their CE focus completely because they saw the need wasn't there and for me that's massive because now you're you are getting an ROI on what you're doing. Now for a lot of dentists they want to learn the thing because they want to know it and that's totally cool. don't I don't I have no ifs, ands, or buts about it but just make sure you know what you're getting into and then like Kristy just said I love that idea of making sure you've got people lined up to get the service.   once you come back. And it's an easy conversation. It's not, I'm going to go get trained on implants. And so when I come back, I'd love for you to be one of the first people I place an implant on. That's uncomfortable, right? But it's just like, hey, I don't have the tools for this right this second. ⁓ You can go to an oral surgeon if you want it sooner, but I am going to be equipped with those tools here in the next six months. I'd be happy to revisit this with you at your next re-care or call you as soon as I get the stuff in.   Same statement, different words. so vulnerability on one hand. If it's family, like shoot, I've had plenty of doctors that's like, hey, I'm testing this on you and you're getting it for free. Or I'm testing it on you and you're gonna pay for the lab fee, like fine.   whatever, but patients maybe be a little bit more tactful with. But Kristy, I think those were some great points. Those are all wonderful things that I've seen you help doctors implement. I've seen Dana, Kristy, or Trish. I've seen all of you guys. Monica, know she's done it too. We've all implemented on some level some of these systems and protocols with practices for things that feel really hard when you're in it. The great part about consultants,   I'm not attached to it, you guys. Kristy's not attached to it. We're attached to you seeing results and we're going to bird's eye view it and see where the missteps are happening, where the gaps are that can be filled to create a different result because Kristy's not emotionally attached to it. So they do really, really well. Kristy, Trish, Monica, Dana, all of them do really well at being able to see those gaps and see how you as a team can fill them and then train you guys on how to fill them. Our job is not to do   it for you because then I'm not teaching you anything, right? Kristy is not, she becomes your regional manager and that's not what we signed up for. But what her job is to do is to show you the path, train you how to do it, watch those benefits, you reap those benefits at the end. So we're excited to help you guys. Kristy, I know you're excited. You love implementing and Kristy loves nothing more than finding the money, finding the money, finding the production and helping you implement structures that really work to make a difference in your practice.   Kristy, thank you for your words of wisdom today. Those were fantastic. think my biggest nugget today is the idea of duh.   have people lined up and ready to go for whatever it is prior to you ever going and getting the course. And I think as I say that, Kristy, there's a lot of protocols and a lot of training that can be done prior to the CE to get your team ready too. Because otherwise the team's just upside down trying to figure it out. But those protocols and things can be put into place before you actually get trained to place and plan. So Kristy, thank you for being here with me today. ⁓   Everyone, I hope you took some solid nuggets from this and you can see how beneficial this can be. Drop us a five star review below. We'd love to help you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We can't wait to hear from you guys. Thanks.  

Title: Travel Like a Billionaire: The 90% Off Secret to a First-Class Lifestyle with Eli Facenda In this conversation, Eli Facenda shares insights on maximizing travel experiences through strategic use of points and credit cards. He discusses his nomadic lifestyle, the entrepreneurial journey that led him to travel hacking, and the importance of understanding the value of different points systems. Eli emphasizes the need for a structured approach to travel, focusing on maximizing points, optimizing travel upgrades, and effectively using credit cards to enhance travel experiences. The discussion also touches on the significance of having a clear strategy for business owners and how to navigate the complexities of travel rewards. In this conversation, Eli Facenda shares his expertise on maximizing travel experiences through strategic use of points and credit cards. He discusses the importance of community in travel planning, innovative solutions for entrepreneurs, and his personal journey in the travel industry. Eli emphasizes the significance of experiential wealth and actionable steps listeners can take to enhance their travel experiences. Links to Watch and Subscribe: https://youtu.be/c7QqSscsajc Bullet Point Highlights: Seth and Eli kick off with casual banter about van life, audio gear, and the nomad lifestyle. Eli shares his background going from broke entrepreneur to travel-hacking expert. He explains how he got obsessed with using points after a free trip to Thailand changed his mindset. Eli now helps entrepreneurs take $20K–$50K luxury trips for 90% off using credit card points. His 3-part system includes maximizing points, optimizing travel perks, and redeeming for bucket-list trips. He gives a real-world example of booking a $20K ANA business class flight to Japan for just $12. Seth dives into a real-life org structure and Eli explains how points flow to the guarantor, not the LLC. Best practice: 2–3 business cards and 2–3 personal cards tailored to your biggest spend categories. Eli introduces his new “DreamTrip Alert System” that delivers full trip itineraries at massive discounts. In the Million Dollar Monday segment, Eli shares how he made, lost, and remade his first million. His next million will come from scalable digital products and a wider reach through content and community. What makes Eli top 1%: He walks the walk, traveling the world and running a business around it. His #1 tip: Pick your dream trip, put it on the calendar, and commit, then let the how figure itself out. Transcript: Eli Facenda (00:00.059) What's up, Seth?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:01.43) Yo, what's going on, brother?   Eli Facenda (00:03.237) How we doing, man? How we doing?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:05.141) Excellent man, what's happening?   Eli Facenda (00:06.893) Not much. you, how's the audio coming through here?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:11.032) Sounds good, sounds good.   Eli Facenda (00:12.547) it clean? Okay, because I'm, it's basically we're in the middle of a Nomad trip here, so I normally have like a, like a shirt mic like you have, but on the road I haven't had, so I haven't had to test this yet, but I figured the DJI's are pretty solid, so I wanna make sure it's actually coming through decent.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:16.962) Okay.   Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:26.732) Nice. Yeah, no, it sounds good. Sounds good, man.   Eli Facenda (00:29.425) Okay, cool, awesome. Awesome Dave, we'll get to connect with you.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:33.802) Yeah, brother definitely, so I don't butcher it. How do you pronounce your last name? Facenda, okay, cool. Cool Awesome, man. Yeah, we've we've crossed paths on social media. I think or maybe our va's have crossed paths who knows   Eli Facenda (00:39.077) for sender. Yep, yep.   Eli Facenda (00:47.663) Yeah, think that was where, yeah, think we were initially connecting, yeah, totally. Instagram, I think, was the place. Yeah. Because you're out in California, right? Nice, I'm in West Palm right now. And I mean, normally based in Austin, but we're in the middle of a like, six to eight month nomad adventure. And so we are, we're on the road here, and we go to Europe in a few weeks for like the next several months.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:53.42) Yeah, nice, nice, where you at right now? Yep, San Diego.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:10.446) Sweet dude.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:17.166) That's awesome dude, awesome, awesome. Love it man, that's a long time. So we did last May we did, man it's been like a year, geez. We did like 30, 33 days in a van trip. So we took our van up through Wyoming into Montana and into Canada. That was a long time for us, but 68 months. Right, yeah.   Eli Facenda (01:18.117) Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, man.   Eli Facenda (01:33.455) Nice.   Eli Facenda (01:37.465) sick. Yeah, well vans are intense too. You know, I haven't done van life but my fiance, she did that before and it was like a lot for her. But yeah, so totally depends on the way you're traveling as well. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:47.266) Yeah.   Nice, nice. Cool, man. Just give you a quick rundown. our audience, my audience is typically, so it used to be passive investors, right? So it used to be the passive income attorney podcast. I think when we might've tried to schedule before and that was for investors. So accredited investors trying to get them to invest in my commercial real estate deals, that sort of thing. But now I've rebranded to raising the bar, which is more geared towards active investors and entrepreneurs and folks like that. So still,   Eli Facenda (02:10.619) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:19.982) Still, I'm sure your clients, wealthy folks that are starting businesses, that have businesses, that are raising capital for real estate or private equity or other types of businesses, that sort of thing. And then we'll do about, we'll do it a little on the shorter side. So we'll do about 30 minute interview, probably at the longest. And then we'll kind of just close that out. And then I do two little smaller sections that I break down into like little five minute episodes. One is a million dollar.   Eli Facenda (02:25.403) Totally.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:49.622) Monday I put that in the notes and it's basically just like real quick, like how you made your first million dollars, how you made your last million, how you plan on making your next million. then, yeah, and then the last one is the top 1%. Basically just kind of what separates you and makes you the top 1 % in what you do.   Eli Facenda (02:59.675) Cool. Yeah, I love it. It's great.   Eli Facenda (03:08.699) Okay, beautiful. And then as far as, is there any place you want me to point people that is connected to you or do you care if you're asking about that? I don't have any hard call to action kind of pitch thing, but it's more just like.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:19.916) No, man, whatever, it's up to you, man, whatever you want to do, whatever you, whatever call it action you want to use, if want to send it to your website or social media, whatever you want to do,   Eli Facenda (03:26.577) Cause you know what we do have, I can do this. We have a pretty cool playbook that's normally 150 bucks and I'm happy to give it to your listeners for free. So I could give them a code, just say what would be the best code for that?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:37.175) Okay, awesome.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:43.429) Um, just raise would probably be good. use that a lot for like call to action, like DME raise. So you could use a raise.   Eli Facenda (03:46.161) Cool. All right, so yeah, so I'll just say go to the website and just DM or just put in the code RAYS and you'll get it for free. But it's like a whole playbook on how to maximize points for trips. I've act like legitimately I've had someone buy it and within 48 hours he texted me a screenshot. was like, dude, I just saved 20 grand on a trip from your ebook. And I was like, wow, okay, it works. So it's good. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:57.07) Sweet.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:09.366) Nice, Cool. All right, man, well, we're already recording, so I'll just jump right in, and then if I need to add anything to the beginning, I'll do that later. And cool, man, yeah, we'll just jump right in.   Eli Facenda (04:14.129) Sweet. You're welcome.   Eli Facenda (04:20.27) Awesome.   Eli Facenda (04:24.913) Let's do it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:27.444) Eli, what's going on, brother? Welcome to the show.   Eli Facenda (04:30.181) Thank you man, excited to be here and I we're going coast to coast today so this will be good.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:34.382) Absolutely, man. So we chatted beforehand, but I think you're tuning in on a road trip right now. So you're living proof of what you do, right?   Eli Facenda (04:44.065) Yeah, totally. are, well this part's kind of like a road trip. We're in West Palm Beach right now, but this is basically leg number two out of, we'll end up being probably an eight month nomadic adventure with me and my fiance and our little puppy. And so we're in West Palm Beach right now in Florida. We head to Europe in less than a month and we'll be bouncing around different parts of Europe for about four months roughly before we decide where we're gonna go next, which we're not exactly sure.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:58.904) Nice.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (05:12.28) That's awesome, man. Are you using all your hacks and secrets and travel tips that you put out there?   Eli Facenda (05:18.449) Absolutely, yeah, 100%. I mean, we just got back from a crazy trip to Japan. This was really cool. I run an entrepreneur mastermind. So we integrated our own trip around Japan around this mastermind event. So I had 53 people come out for like eight days. We went snowboarding in the mountains in Niseko in the Northern Park. And then we went down to Tokyo for the cherry blossoms. But for myself personally, to get there and back and do a lot of the hotels, we used points. We saved over 50 grand just on that portion of the trip. We then...   know, flew down to West Palm on points and then going over to Europe and a lot of the stays over there will also be leveraging the point strategies that I help clients use and then I talk about on social media and the stuff that we'll dive into today. But yeah, I like to be living proof of it because it's pretty awesome. It's something that's really impacted my life. I love doing it. And when I do it, I get to share it too. So has like a multiple benefit for everybody.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (06:06.648) That's awesome, man. I'm excited, dude. I'm excited to dig in here, because it's just for my own personal benefit and education, because I'm super stoked about this stuff, and I travel a lot with my fiance, or my fiance, my wife, and it's something I'm personally interested in as well. We've had past conversations too, so it's great to have you on, man. So just to start off, man, if somebody, you meet somebody in the street, they ask you what you do, how do you explain that?   in a sentence, right? Like without going into some crazy like tangent about all the awesome things that you do. Like what, how do you answer that question?   Eli Facenda (06:36.453) Yeah.   Eli Facenda (06:41.329) Sure, sure, Yeah, it really does depend on the situation, but I oftentimes will ask a couple questions because it makes it easier for people to understand. So usually it's like, do you have any big dream bucket list trip you've ever wanted to take? And they'll be like, oh yeah, Greece. I'm like, well, what we do is we help you get to Greece in business or first class, stay in five star hotels, have the trip of your dreams at about 90 % off. So that's kind of the tagline is take the trip of your dreams for about 90 % off.   I'll get into the whole point side of things, but some people don't know what points are, or some are really well studied in that world. So I just leave with the trip because that's usually what people want. They want to have the experience where it's you and your wife flying first class, sipping champagne on the way to Paris to go see the Eiffel Tower and the points and the credit cards. That's really the mechanism. That's how we make the experience happen. But at end of the day, what we want is the amazing memories, the beautiful experience, all that stuff. So I leave with the trip when I talk about it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:37.848) That's awesome, man. Yeah, I mean, you're literally selling the dream, right? Like in marketing, you sell the dream or hit on a pain point. Like you are like the quintessential selling the dream. Like that's what everybody thinks about. So.   Eli Facenda (07:42.969) Yeah, exactly.   Yeah, Right. Well, it's funny because, you know, in marketing, they'll say like, sell the destination, not the vehicle, right? They'll be like, sell the outcome, not how you get there. And so we do that in our marketing. But then when you think about it, when people are taking a trip, what we are helping them do is make the vehicle to get to the destination part of the destination. Because really, when you travel well, and you do it in style, the flight becomes a part of the trip that you're excited for.   I can't wait to see the the drinks and the champagne and the food they're gonna have and how awesome the seat is and the movie selection, how big's the screen. At least for people that love to travel, it becomes a fascination of the trip, not just getting there. So that's a big difference maker when people start to go on these flights, and this is what a lot of our clients will say, and for me, it goes from flying economy to like, I'm counting down the hours to get off this freaking plane.   to like, we do another lap around the city? Cause like, I'd love to just hang out here longer, right? And like the flight attendants treat you really well. So yeah, it's a whole experience.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (08:49.314) That's awesome, man. Yeah, that's great. Was there a trip that you went on personally where you just kind of thought, man, I can turn this into a business, right? Like you're just enjoying it so much that you just were like, like the light bulb went off or how did this business spawn?   Eli Facenda (09:04.515) Yeah, there wasn't one trip that I made the connection between like, trip is awesome, let me start a business. But there was one trip that gave me the light bulb of, my God, I am obsessed with this, I need to learn everything I can. There was zero intention or thought about business that when it first started. And that'll take you back about 10 years. So was around 22 years old and I'm just coming out of college. And basically I'm in my mom's basement and I remember this really...   like heavy feeling because I went to a good university near New York City and all my friends went to Wall Street and they were making like six figures plus right out of school. And I had this like entrepreneurial bug. I was like, that's not for me. I don't want to sit in an office. I don't care if I can make a lot of money. I want to like play life on my terms, even if it means I'm making less. So at this point I have friends that are making tons of money, know, lots of disposable income and I'm making like 20 grand a year. I'm working four side jobs. I was trying to build a company. I remember getting this text.   And my stomach just dropped, because I was like, shit, I'm going to miss out on this incredible experience. was friends inviting me to go to Thailand. And I was like, if I don't figure out a better strategy of either how to make more money or figure something out, I'm not going be able to go on this trip. And I was like, damn, this is going to be just a life of missing out on experiences. Is that what it means to follow my dreams with entrepreneurship? It's like, I have to forego everything that my other friends are doing. And so was like, let me think about this differently. And I had a mentor that told me, you don't need more money, you need a better strategy. And he was talking about growing a business.   But for me, I was like, oh wait, there's this credit card point thing. What if I could figure that out? So I ended up piecing it together. I got a trip to Thailand for free. I had this amazing experience with some of my best friends. It's like still, you know, 13 friends in Thailand at age like 22, 23. Memories you don't get back. So was really grateful to have that. And then I came back from that trip and I got another flight a few, probably a year later to Europe in business class where it was a $6,000 ticket that I paid $6 for. Now after that one,   I came off that flight and I was like, I will read every blog, I will watch every YouTube video, I will learn everything about this because it meant I could travel the world and have this incredible lifestyle without having to go take a corporate job. So was like, I get to have my entrepreneurial dream and the travel I want without any trade-offs and I was like, this is amazing. So that was my first time I got hooked. It took me years of researching and reading blogs and websites and doing stuff for myself before I even had the thought of helping anyone else. I just became obsessed with it on my own.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (11:27.086) I love that you recognize you had the entrepreneurial bug early on, right? Before you got drugged down into the corporate ladder and then you got the golden handcuffs, we like to call it, and that sort of thing where it gets much, much harder to escape that gravity. I know for myself, it took a really long time. ended up going to, I went to med school, then I got my MBA, and then I went to law school, and then I worked in a big law firm, and it just took me all this time to figure out like, I don't want this.   Eli Facenda (11:38.405) Yeah.   Eli Facenda (11:49.201) Mm.   Eli Facenda (11:56.763) Right, well the social pressure alone of like everyone year round is going one way, it takes a lot of guts for you to zig when everyone else is zagging, like it's not easy to do. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (11:57.015) And I think it's.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (12:06.648) For sure, for sure. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough, right? And especially when you see your friends making six figures right out of college, you're like, man, I could do that right now if I wanted to do it, but I don't want that. So it takes guts to be able to go out there and do your own thing.   Eli Facenda (12:21.873) Totally. And I think everyone has their own version of that still. There's even vert flavors of that today that are still existing for me where it's like, everyone's kinda going this way, but when I really get quiet and listen to myself, I'm like, yeah, you could do that, but you actually, what your soul or your heart really wants is to go over here. And so I've always just tried to listen to that more because I think about one of my North stars is, at the end of my life, I'm 80, 90 years old, I do the rocking chair test and look back, it's like,   What regret would I rather not have when I'm 90? I'd always rather be like I bet on myself than like I took the sure, you know, the well-paid path, which is the old cliche, but I think it's really true.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (13:01.004) Totally, I love that North Star, man. Have you ever asked ChatGBT to give you advice as your 80 or 90 year old self on your deathbed? It's great. Yeah. I love it, man. I love it. Yeah, it's great. It you great insight. You start reading, you're like, this is good.   Eli Facenda (13:07.409) Yeah, yeah, I actually created a custom GPT and it's my future me that coaches current me. yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.   Right. Exactly. Yeah, totally.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (13:21.326) Awesome man, well let's get back kind of on the business of travel, right? So somebody comes to you, they do that introduction that we talked about, you get in a deeper conversation, they're super interested in it, they wanna learn more about these travel hacks and strategies, like where do they start? Where do you point them?   Eli Facenda (13:42.447) Yeah, so in terms of the process, I like to chunk it into three main buckets.   And it's important to have context around this game because if you don't, it just starts to feel like there's so many moving pieces and who has time for that and it's too confusing and then it becomes overwhelming and overwhelm just basically leads to an action. And then that is the person who's like, well, I just don't wanna do that, I'll just take a cash back card or I'll just stick to my Delta card, right? And so when you have the right context, you can start to understand the highest leverage moves to make and then you know really how to get the result you want with the least amount of effort. So that's what we focus on and specifically like I've worked with   probably over a thousand business owners now. And with business owners, investors and entrepreneurs, it's a different, the points game takes on a different context, right? Because usually the constraint we have to solve for is time and complexity. And if you work a nine to five, you know, after five o'clock, you've got hours for your night. But entrepreneurs, it's like every hour is kind of an asset that you can use. So it's a little bit different. So the three buckets are, the first one is to maximize the points that you earn. So this happens from getting the right cards and the right expenses.   because all of these different points are like currency, so you wanna earn the right type of points and then you wanna maximize the amount of them by getting the right cards and the right expenses. So that's the first piece and that's really, really key, because nothing else happens if you don't get that right. The second bucket is gonna be to upgrade and optimize your travel. So you've got domestic trips for a conference, are you getting TSA pre-check and clear, are you getting the best lounges, are you getting first class upgrades and free bags and hotel suite upgrades and free breakfast at the hotels and free wifi. Really it's just like,   There's all these opportunities available for people that are traveling domestically for work, for family events, you know, your kind of ordinary traveling might have. And what we want to do is we just want to enhance the quality of all of that and reduce all the headaches and annoyances by maximizing benefits on cards and status perks and all the kind of like little tactics that you can play. So that's the second thing that just makes your travel more comfortable. And then the third bucket, which is really the most important in terms of impact in your life and the most meaningful piece is to take your dream bucket list trips for 70 to 90 % off.   Eli Facenda (15:45.775) And so that's where you're gonna take the points you've accumulated. You're gonna use some strategies that I can break down here around transferring these points from the banks to the airlines and hotels, and you're gonna get these dream trips for literally a fraction of what they should cost if you're paying cash, or compared to if you were using your points through a site like Amex Travel or Capital & Travel or Chase Travel. Okay, so that's a mouthful, but those are the three. So maximize your points, get the best possible upgrades, and then take your dream trips for 90 % off.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:13.934) Yeah, dive into one of those little those connecting strategies there that you mentioned.   Eli Facenda (16:19.183) Yeah. Yeah. So I'll talk first about the cards. That's the order. This is the first mistake that most business owners and individuals are making is they're just getting random cards. They're like, well, I live in Dallas. Let me get the American card or live in Atlanta. So I'll get the Delta card or, whatever it may be. Or live in San Diego and I fly domestic. So I'll just get the Southwest card. Well, they don't realize is that again, these points, these points like currencies. And so if I told you, Hey, do you want 150 Mexican pesos or 150 us dollars for your couch that you're selling on Facebook marketplace?   you're obviously gonna take the US dollars, right? Because the currency is much higher. But with points, people don't realize that. So they might be racking up Hilton points or Delta miles or other points and miles that just aren't as valuable as other ones out there. And then they burn through them quick or they don't go as far. And they end up just basically sitting there being like, I feel like I should be getting more. This is the common thing I hear. I feel like this should be taking me further, but like it's not doing much. And so what we wanna focus on is bank points that are transferable. So certain banks,   have this ability to convert the points to the airline hotel loyalty programs. And what happens is the banks have a different way of pricing than the airlines do. And certain airlines and certain hotels have really good what we call sweet spots or opportunities for you to get the best possible deals. Okay, so when you earn these effective points, which the top ones I recommend are generally Amex, Chase, and Capital One, and there's a new program built actually is out where you can put your rent on a card with no fees and earn points, it's really cool. But when you get those right,   And then you look through your expenses and you say, what do I spend the most on? Is it groceries and dining and the personal side? Cool. There's a card like the Amex Gold that is specifically really good for those types of expenses. Then you look at your business. What do I spend a lot on? Is it ads and software and taking clients out for dinners? Great. The Amex Business Gold earns four points per dollar on those categories, but maybe it's you're spending a lot on flights for company travel, or maybe you have inventory you're buying, or you're paying a lot of contractors, or you have a lot of payroll. You want to assess where you're spending the most money.   and make sure you have the optimal card lined up for that type of expense. So I'll pause there, but that's kind of the first bucket. The other one is on using the points effectively, which I can talk about too, is pretty powerful. But that first one is really the linchpin. Because if you have a bunch of Delta miles and you want to go to Europe, I'll give an example actually one more before I kind of pause. There was an example recently I saw of a client and they wanted to go to Europe and we're looking at different options. This was from JFK to Amsterdam. If you have Delta miles,   Eli Facenda (18:43.547) The ticket for Delta One, this big awesome Delta Suite, was 320,000 miles. That's what Delta was charging to go from JFK to Amsterdam. It's really expensive amount of miles. But the same exact flight, like same flight number, same aircraft, everything, if you booked it through Virgin Atlantic, it was 50,000 miles. One seventh of the amount almost. It's really, really big difference. And so here's the kicker, right? If you have a Delta card, you only earn Delta miles, so you have to pay the 320,000.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (18:46.765) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:02.124) Hmm.   Eli Facenda (19:12.497) but if you had an Amex card that earned Amex points, so like the Amex gold or business gold, you could actually convert those points into Virgin to book the Delta flight because Virgin and Delta are partners, and you'd pay 50,000 points instead of 320,000. So this is the part where like, for people that kind of get this, they're like, whoa, and the other people are like, what did you just say? So I get it can be, it can be tricky for some people that are just getting to grasp it, but I want to make sure to lay out the whole game so people can understand really what's possible for them.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:34.764) Yeah   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:42.329) Totally, totally. Yeah, it's just, mean, I'm sure people out there listening, it's both, right? Some people know these things exist, but they don't know the extent of it. And you're opening up their minds regardless, right? Like all the possibilities. I think most people are just like, sure, I need to find a great car that has a welcome offer of some sort. That's usually what people look at. And then they just try to pick, perhaps they take it a step further and they're looking to see like what they spend money on the most and they'll...   Eli Facenda (19:54.139) Tour then.   Eli Facenda (20:04.443) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (20:11.128) calibrate that card to that. But you're taking it step further because you know, it's kind of just opening yourself up to knowing all the possibilities, right? All these different connections, where to spend the points, where you can earn the points, those sorts of things. How thick is your wallet, man? Do you have, is your wallet like this and it's got 25 cards in it or what?   Eli Facenda (20:19.419) Totally.   Right. Yeah.   Eli Facenda (20:28.123) Haha   Yeah. Yeah.   Well, caveat this first by saying when we work with clients and we might do recommendations for people, I always recommend if you have a business, two to three personal cards and two to three business cards. That is a simple way to set this up. That's only four to six cards across both things. That's enough where you're really gonna get some serious ROI, but it's not so much that's really complicated. Some people are kind of curmudgeoned about it, like I only want one card. And I'm like, that's fine. There's no right or wrong in this. It's really preferential, but you should just know if you do that, you're gonna be leaving for most business owners that spend at least a few thousand a month.   that's gonna cost you tens of thousands of dollars of free trips a year. So I'm like, is your simplicity of having one card worth that much? If it is, great, but maybe having a second or third card doesn't add that much complexity. But if you get an extra $30,000 a year trip out of it, probably worth it, right? So that's the first thing. But to answer your actual question, so I have an entire thing called the Credit Man purse. It's like this portfolio binder, and it's just stacked with cards. I mean, I have over 40 credit cards, but I've been doing this for a long time, right? And there's like, here's the thing also with credit.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (21:28.28) Hahaha   Eli Facenda (21:34.041) A big question, a lot of investors, specifically people that are doing real estate or business owners, really want to their credit clean and we're huge advocates of actually not just keeping your credit score the same but improving it over time. And when you get business cards, they don't show up on your personal credit report. Okay, the vast majority. The inquiry will, but the actual card won't. And some banks, you can actually get multiple cards with no additional inquiries. So like when we do a custom card plan for someone or when we're just recommending it, we're always saying like, make sure to look at which banks you already have relationships with.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (21:48.142) Mm-hmm.   Eli Facenda (22:02.373) which ones you can get a soft pull from, the order matters of these card applications. But at end of the day, you just want a couple of specific cards that are really gonna be custom built for you, and you don't have to go crazy with it. If you get excited and you're like passionate about it, you can get 10, 15, 20 cards over the course of several years, and if you do it right underneath your businesses, it's not gonna drop your personal credit score. Your personal credit score will actually go up over time.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (22:26.314) Mm-hmm. That's a good hack, man. I'll get I'm put you on a spot a little bit. I'm gonna explain like what what I see a lot of the people that are probably listen to this show have in place structured wise like organizational structure and it's kind of similar to mine. Mine's probably a lot more complicated, but just to keep it simple, you know, there might be a parent company, right? Like this overhead parent company that owns everything. So let's let's call it parent company, right? And then below the parent company, the parent company owns, let's say a management company.   This management company probably manages funds, manages properties, manages equity for investors, that sort of thing. And then they also might have these other businesses, right? Like it just depends on the person. Like for instance, I own gyms and some other, my law firm, things like that. So they might have these own individual operating companies that owns a gym or owns another business or does these other things. you know.   Eli Facenda (22:55.889) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (23:20.066) Based on that structure, so you've got a parent company, you've got a, let's call it an equity management or fund management or property management company, and then you've got kind of this other operating business. How would you structure, what credit cards I guess would you kind of recommend? Not necessarily specific ones, but like, do they need one for all three or, yeah, how would you think about that?   Eli Facenda (23:27.301) Mm-hmm.   Eli Facenda (23:36.593) Yeah, yeah, but how would you think about that? Yeah, totally. I mean, it's a super common question. Like this is exactly the kind of clientele that we work with all the time where they're like, are you sure this is gonna work for me? I have four rental properties, two companies, one holding company. I have an investment thing. I have this thing over here. It's like, yeah, it all works. So simple is the key. So it's always a spectrum too. Like some people are, again, really minimalist with like what they want. we always, like when we're doing this for a client, we custom build it. But.   The real recommendation there is we wanna, again, assess which of these companies are actually generating the highest amount of spend. And those are the ones we wanna start with first in terms of cards and really optimizing. Now, if you have a bunch of different companies and they all have a bunch of spend, the first key thing to know is that the points will go to the business owner, the person who personally guaranteed the card, not to the business. So there's no business points account. It's underneath your name, even if it's underneath the LLC.   So the points go to you. So if you have like six different companies and you have like three Chase cards and three Amex cards, all of those three Chase cards and all of those three Amex cards are gonna basically funnel up to your account, okay? So that keeps it simple in terms of how you can think about accruing these points. They're not gonna be scattered everywhere where you can't use them. So that's good to know. Same with the airlines, right? doesn't matter if it's an airline or a bank card. So that's the first thing. For these management companies, usually lot of them don't have much spend.   So what we'll tend to do is just get one card that is like a catch-all card. And so this would be a card that we want to have earn around 1.5 to two points per dollar spent. Because what we've done is we've taken the floor of what you're gonna earn on your everyday spend and we just increase it by 50 to 100%. Okay, so like let's say a parent company is used for some client meetings and some basic legal and admin stuff and it's like 1,500 bucks a month just to do upkeep and normal stuff like that.   and it's not a crazy amount of different categories to spend. You're not running ads, you don't have that much software, there's not really a lot travel happening with it. But if that's the case, then what we wanna do is get a card, maybe like the Chase Inc. Unlimited, which earns 1.5x on everything, and we'll say, look, we're gonna keep this simple. That holding company doesn't have a lot of points earning power, so let's make sure we get a card on it just to earn, but we don't wanna like go crazy and get a bunch of cards and try to maximize every dollar. But this company that owns four different gyms and spends...   Eli Facenda (25:52.369) 50K a month on equipment and advertising and payroll and all this stuff, that's the company where we wanna look to get maybe two or three cards that are specifically aligned with that business to spend because that is where you as an entrepreneur, as an owner, are gonna be generating the most return. It's gonna be from that one entity. So I hope that breaks it down in a way that makes sense, but this is also where, again, having your cards across two to three main banks will keep it relatively simple because even if you have four different entities, if it's under one Amex login, that makes it nice and easy too.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (26:22.53) Totally, totally. Awesome, man. I knew you could handle that. Easy, easy peasy. Cool, man. Let's go to number two, right? Using the points effectively. You kind of touched on a little bit of that strategy, but let's jump into that.   Eli Facenda (26:26.682) Easy basic.   Eli Facenda (26:32.709) Yeah, yeah, so the second thing was optimizing the upgrades and all that. I'll cover that one really quick. If you're going through the airport and you don't have TSA PreCheck and clear and lounge access, you're missing out on some really easy perks that will just make your life way more enjoyable. So that's the first thing. There's a lot you can do with hotel upgrades and status. So like when I travel and go to Miami tonight for a conference, I have status at Hyatt. I'm staying at Hyatt for two of the nights down here.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (26:39.628) Okay.   Eli Facenda (27:02.225) I probably would get upgraded to a suite that's worth like thousand to 1500 bucks a night because I know how to use the suite and I certificate, it's my globalist status, I know how to message the hotel the right way. So there's some strategies there where if you do that, whenever you're traveling, you just get a much better experience. You get early check-in, late check-out, the free suite upgrade, much more spacious room. A lot of times they have lounges at the property like when we were in Tokyo, a bunch of us stayed at the Grand Hyatt there. They had a beautiful lounge overlooking the city. They had breakfast every morning.   They had drinks all day. They had a great lounge area. We actually had a mastermind session in there and they like a 15 person breakout room for us to go to. It cost us $0 to use it. They had afternoon drinks and stuff like that. So these are just the things that make your travel much better. So small tweaks that over time just again, make it a much more enjoyable experience. But that bucket on how you use your points, this is one of the most critical pieces. And I've already kind of alluded to it with that Delta One example, but   I'll share another one. So on the way to Japan, right, we flew ANA business class. This is all Nippon. It's one of the premier airlines in the world for international business class travel. They actually have a seat called The Room because it's so spacious and big, your own big sliding door. They have like an omakase menu. You've got ramen, champagne. It's like really, really good. Amazing sake and green tea and all this good stuff.   It was like an incredible way to fly and you know, it's an 11 hour flight and I didn't sleep a wink because I was just eating the whole time. But here's the deal, right? So that flight for my fiance and I, it would have been $20,000 for the two of us. It's 10,000 a piece. Okay, San Francisco to Tokyo. We're going in peak season, mind you. So I have three options to book that flight. I pay cash for it, which you know, I do decent in business, but I'm not dropping 20 grand on flights.   just to get to Japan, like that's out, that's way out of my bucket of what I would ever want to do. The second option, I go to the bank site. Okay, so again, if you have AMEX points, a lot of people have AMEX cards, like the platinum or the gold card, and this is a good start, but when you go to the bank site, each point is worth one penny. Okay, this is the baseline value of a point. So what happens is if you go to AMEX travel, they'll say, okay, this flight would cost, let's call it 20 grand. So 20 grand times one cent for each point equals 2 million points.   Eli Facenda (29:20.977) So my second option would have been to go to Amex's site and pay two million points, which I don't even have. Okay, so I'm like, that wouldn't have even worked, but that's what most people are doing at use points. They're going directly to the bank site and they're booking using Amex travel and they're getting absolutely screwed. Okay. There's kind of, and then there's a third option, which is to go through the airline site. So there's like three A and three B. Three A would be like, again, you only have Delta miles and you're kind of screwed going just to Delta. I don't recommend that. But the last option is what we did.   which is where we had Amex points and Chase points, and I looked at my different options and I said, okay, what are the best partner airlines I can book through to get to Japan? Well, it turns out, ANA is a part of the Star Alliance, okay? United is also part of that alliance. Chase and United have a partnership where I could convert my Chase points into United miles. When I looked that up, I ended up finding the deal and there's ways you have to kind of search this and track it, but that same flight that would have cost me two million points,   through Amex or Chase travel directly cost me 220,000 points to transfer from Chase to United. And I paid $12 out of Okay, so $20,000 flight, I paid 12 bucks. But how did I do it? I had the right points first. I had enough of them because I had the right cards and the right expenses. I knew how to search for this flight. And then I was able to transfer these points from Chase into the airline. So the hardest part of this entire process   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:30.402) Hmm.   Eli Facenda (30:49.413) is figuring out the points transfers and which partners are the right ones for certain airlines. That gets very nuanced and complicated. It's kind of like, you know, if you were talking to a CPA and someone's trying to explain how like the Augusta rule works, whatever, and like the CPA pulls up like the tax code and is like unveiling this long list of tax jargon. The average person is just like, what, just like tell me how to do it, right? That's kind of the same thing here. There's a lot of different like angles and transfer partners and bonuses and.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (31:12.43) Right.   Eli Facenda (31:17.689) alliances and partnerships and it gets kind of complicated but that's how it works.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (31:22.434) Totally, totally. So let's talk about that. how do you help people keep track of that or learn that or execute, I guess, on these strategies?   Eli Facenda (31:32.241) Sure, yeah, so for us, our company really has two main levels to it. So we have a community-based level where it's like you're just getting the fast track, you're getting help from experts. So I'm really good at this, but I'm more of an entrepreneur than a points nerd. So as I built this, initially I was the one on the phone with all the clients, walking everyone through it, and then I built a team. So I found basically some of the other points nerds in the world that I was mind blown by. I knew them from social media and just seeing their stuff, and I was like, that person has their stuff. So I brought them onto the team.   And so our clients will interact with both me and them inside of our community, but it's not just points. We're also providing really cool travel experiences. So for example, I posted this, but I'm going kiteboarding in Egypt in June on this epic like entrepreneur kiteboard trip where it's 40 entrepreneurs going to learn how to kiteboard together and masterminding on one. And so I'm attending, I sent it out to our clients and I said, Hey, if you want to come on this, our team will help you plan the flights out there on your point so you can get business class on the way out.   So I like to, because ultimately I wanna help people, my mission is to help people create more experiential wealth in their life. There's financial wealth, and a lot of people accumulate dollars, but they're not turning it into experiences. So I'm like, let's create more experiential wealth, and the points are the way to justify it. So we have that community level where you get access to our team, there's calls you can jump on, ways we help you plan trips, and then we have the done for you services, where we basically just handle it for you. That's more like, think of like a travel agency on points for entrepreneurs.   That's more of what that is. And in there we'll do the custom card planning and map out what cards you need based off of what your specific spends are and stuff like that. So we do some pretty deep intake. And we kind of are almost like a travel agent. It's a little bit different in some ways, but that's basically the two levels in how we help people.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:12.29) Great, man. I love how you build in the experience, right? Like that's part of it. Like that's what you're teaching anyway. So it's like, it's not like, hey, join this, join this group and then we'll talk about all these things. You're actually doing it. You're actually inviting them to execute on what you're teaching so that they can see it in motion and then they can continue to do it and experience life at a different level.   Eli Facenda (33:32.497) Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, like, I really love it too. like, I'm like, everyone that works with us is really, usually a pretty cool person. Like, if you're an entrepreneur and you have the guts to build your own business, and then you wanna travel the world, like by nature of that, you're already probably a pretty cool person. Like the majority of people that are doing that, I think well-traveled people are some of the most interesting people. If you want the best stories in life, like, someone who's traveled the world is gonna have some stories for you. And so when you combine those two, it's like, these are people I wanna hang out with anyways. So like, I'm going on a trip to Egypt. I'm like, come with, like.   Whoever in the community wants to come, let's have a party, let's go do it. So it's great thing.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:04.994) That's great. Awesome, man. How are you raising the bar in your life and your business right now? Like what are you doing to build your business further, building off of some of the things that you're offering right now? Where are you taking it to the next level?   Eli Facenda (34:18.833) Yeah, so we have a new project we're rolling out inside of our community, which I'm really excited about, which is even just in our lower tier membership, and it's called our DreamTrip Alert System. So what this is, is when people come in, this has never been done before in the world of points and miles or travel at all. So we're the first to do this, which I'm really excited about. So let's say you were to sign up. You're gonna come in and give us your DreamTrip destinations, the seasons or windows that you could go, the points you have, your home airport, all this stuff.   and our team is going through and we're not just finding you like a flight, because there are different alerts out there that'll be like, hey, we found a flight. And it's like, cool, one way from LA to London, but like, what am I gonna do when I'm there? Where am gonna stay? How am getting back? Right, it's like part of the puzzle, but it leaves a lot on you to figure out. And for our clients, most business owners and entrepreneurs, investors, they're too busy to piece all that together. So they're like, well, cool, that doesn't really help me. So we decided to do, we said, what if we...   just basically sent people like a mystery subscription box of their dream trips. And so when you come in and you fill that out, we gather it. And then a couple times a month, we're gonna send out alerts where it's like a 30, 40 or $50,000 type trip, somewhere incredible in the world. We're talking Greek islands, Amalfi Coast, Japan, New Zealand, African safaris, Maldives, Bora Bora, places like that, business and first class flights, five star hotels, four pennies on the dollar. So these are like, we get $40,000 trips where people will end up paying a thousand bucks, 1500 bucks, two grand out of pocket.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (35:25.389) Mm-hmm.   Eli Facenda (35:44.337) And so we're gonna send the entire trip to you. So it's like the flights, the hotels, the entire step-by-step booking, the recommendations on the ground, the entire experience. And so we're sending those out so people come in, they tell us when, where, like the things they wanna do, and then they're just gonna get these alerts where it's like every month they're gonna be like, you you're sitting there with your wife, hey babe, you wanna go to Bora Bora in like June? It's gonna cost us like 800 bucks and it would be a $30,000 trip. It's like that's what I want. That's what I wanna create. So that's us raising the bar in the industry and in our business.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:06.35) you   Eli Facenda (36:13.615) I'm very excited, it's brand new for us, so I'm just pumped to see that continue to roll out, because it's, for me the mission is to help people live with experiential wealth in the form of travel. And so, usually there's some barriers that get in the way. There's time, there's planning, and then there's cost. And what we're trying to do is eliminate as many of those barriers as we can to make it just easier to say yes to the trip.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:34.252) Yeah, man, sign me up, dude. Sign me up. I feel like you've got to get both significant others on your list, right? So they both see it and whoever's like the person is like, we've got to do this, you hit both of them and then they convince the other one to do it.   Eli Facenda (36:36.625) All right.   Eli Facenda (36:49.477) Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. There's usually one. There's usually like sometimes it's the husband's on the call and he's like, dude, I don't know where we ever travel. Like I'm gonna pay for this, my wife's gonna do everything or it's the opposite where the guy's like, you know, she just shows up and I tell her where we're going. And so like that's my relationship. I'll be like, you know, it's my industry, my passion. I'm like, we're going here and then here. And she's like, tell me where to be. And she just has no idea where we are and she just loves it. And I'm like, I like planning. So, you know, but it's different for everybody.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:11.736) Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:17.144) For sure, for sure, man. All right, brother, this has been incredible. Tell our audience where they can find out more about you, where they can get involved with all the things, all the incredible things that they've heard on this show. Throw it out there,   Eli Facenda (37:28.859) Totally. Yeah, a couple of main places. So the first thing I'll share is that we have what I call the CEO Points Playbook. This is something I custom built. Took me a long time, and this was not a Chad TBT prompt. Like, I really built this on my own. And it is like a 30 to 40 page playbook that any business owner or entrepreneur can use to really maximize their travel experiences, get better bucket list trips, figure out the right cards for them. And it's normally 150 bucks, but if you go to freedomtravelsystems.com   forward slash playbook and you put in the code RAYS, you're gonna get it for free. Okay, so anyone listening, it is free for you. And so that's gonna be freedomtravelsystems.com forward slash playbook and then use the code RAYS, maybe we can put it in the show notes. And so that'll be the first thing. Second place is if you're like just want done for you services, just take off that forward slash and go to freedomtravelsystems.com. can talk to myself and one of the team members. And the last place, I hang out on Instagram and post a lot there, that's where we connected.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (38:14.049) Absolutely.   Eli Facenda (38:27.595) And that's where I'm sharing the most like behind the scenes and as I'm booking this stuff, as I'm planning it, as I'm showing like what our clients are doing, you get to see more of the visuals and the fun and come along for the ride. And so I love engaging on Instagram as well.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (38:40.27) Great. Thanks Eli. I really appreciate you coming on the show,   Eli Facenda (38:43.973) Thanks Seth, appreciate you having me on.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (38:45.806) All right, brother, talk soon.   All right, sweet dude. Nice. Yeah, right around 30 minutes. Let's see. Yeah, we'll just jump into these last few questions here.   Eli Facenda (38:51.748) Awesome.   Eli Facenda (38:55.205) Perfect.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:03.862) Welcome to Million Dollar Monday with Eli Fisenda. Let's just jump right in. Hey brother. Yeah, how did you make your first million?   Eli Facenda (39:09.243) Let's do it.   Eli Facenda (39:13.499) So I actually made my first million in a tour company. Now I made the first million, I didn't get to keep the first million, but what we were doing, we were running sports trips all over the world. This is actually part of how I fell in love with the travel industry and the work that I now do with points. And ultimately what we were doing, we were creating these international tour packages for youth sports teams and families to go on these international tours. think of like a 14 year old baseball team in your, you're in San Diego. We'd like do a selection of kids.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:19.694) Sure.   Eli Facenda (39:41.329) from that area and the families would come and they would go to Japan or Italy or wherever and travel for 10 days, experience the culture, have an educational tour and also play the local teams. So we did that in a variety of sports, ice hockey and baseball and lacrosse and all these different sports. And we were growing a lot and then that was ramping right until COVID and that just decimated the entire business. we took us about two years to get to a million and then we started to double almost every year for a few years and that was like.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:02.432) Mm.   Eli Facenda (40:09.399) Really, really tough break at COVID, but that was the first million.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:11.63) COVID man. Nobody saw that coming. mean.   Eli Facenda (40:13.881) No, definitely, you know, group, large, large group sports international travel was like the worst potential. Like you can't go overseas and you definitely can't do it with 60 people. So was, was a brutal industry to be in.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:25.506) Right? Yeah, there were certain sectors that just, I mean, there was nothing you could do. We opened up our first gym actually two weeks before COVID hit in 2020. we had our, us like two years to open and then our grand opening. And then we had a bunch of free clients in those first two weeks. And then they ended up being free clients for about a year because we couldn't charge them. Cause we couldn't get them back in the gym. We're doing online workouts and all that kind of stuff is insane.   Eli Facenda (40:36.817) Ugh.   Eli Facenda (40:47.696) Wow.   Eli Facenda (40:53.337) And that's like where the true entrepreneurial muscles are definitely strengthened in times like that though. mean, like the people that bounce back and figure it out, like you just have a new sense of confidence of like, you know, I can handle anything.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:54.22) But hey, we adapt,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (41:06.764) Yeah, man. I mean, you pivot, right? Like I actually ended up launching my first podcast during during COVID because I was stuck inside and it was like, all right, let's let's do this. Let's get on Zoom and interview people and all that kind of stuff, man. So that leads us right to the next question. And how do you make your last million? How do you make that transition?   Eli Facenda (41:12.859) Cool.   Nice. Cool. I'll it.   Eli Facenda (41:24.143) Yeah, so the last million that I made was in the current business that I have. so essentially what we've been doing there for about four years now is helping entrepreneurs maximize their travel on credit card points. So helping them get their dream bucket list trips, these 30, 40, $50,000 trips all over the world for about 90 % off by leveraging credit card points. And we've traditionally had some pretty high ticket services. I mean, not crazy expensive, but like, you five, 10, 15 K and that range has been the main main service. And so,   We cracked our first million about two years in, so that was 2020, 2024 actually was the first year we made a million there.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:00.526) Awesome man, awesome. How about your next million? Where are you scaling to?   Eli Facenda (42:04.305) Yeah, so the next million I wanna make is the same business. love what I do, I really enjoy it. And what I wanna do is do it in a more community oriented and lower ticket way. So I wanna have bigger reach, more digital products, more of the community, more affiliate services and stuff like that. And I'm really excited about kind of cracking the code on that, because we've done it decently with the higher ticket stuff, more agency level, service level stuff, which is great. And we're still cranking on that, we're gonna keep growing it. But I really wanna see what we can do with...   So the lower ticket stuff, creating awesome stuff on YouTube that leads to different channels and distributions there. So that's the next million and same business, just different type of money.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:41.57) I love it man, yeah, that's kind of opposite of how some people approach it, right? You usually start with a lower ticket and then you have to build up that base before anybody will give you, you know, higher, pay for that higher ticket product, but you're kind of working backwards because you want to help more people.   Eli Facenda (42:56.677) Totally, exactly, yeah, and there's a limit. mean, what we do in the high ticket is incredible, but it really is a specialized skill. Like you think about like a bookkeeper or an accounting firm or something, like there's like a million bookkeepers. There's like 50 people that know points and travel to the level that I need them to know it to really serve clients with the highest level. So there's a real limit on the ability to scale that. And so it's also just like, we wanna be able to do really quality work for less people, but then serve more people with the other stuff too.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (43:25.368) Totally, totally.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (43:29.518) Cool, let's jump into the next one dude and we'll wrap up. Eli, you're clearly in the top 1 % of what you do. I don't even know if there's that many people out there that do what you do at all, period. So clearly in the top 0.0001%, what is it about you that separates you from the rest of the field?   Eli Facenda (43:49.701) I think it's our ability to actually live what we preach. This is something where, you know, there are other fantastic people that talk about credit card points, but very few of them are actually business owners, like that's who we serve, and very few of them are actually traveling in the way that they're trying to help people travel. So we've done both. I've built multiple businesses, so I understand the psychology and the relatability of how you wanna think about travel and points and the various stresses in your life, the limitations on time and complexity. And I also,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:06.062) Hmm.   Eli Facenda (44:20.636) What just happened?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:22.998) I'm not sure. We can splice it together, but let's see. Lost the video.   Eli Facenda (44:26.748) Let me see here. Did my camera die or something?   Bizarre. second.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:36.076) Yeah, weird. Never had that happen.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:42.038) Not a big deal, we can splice it together, but let's see if we can get your camera working again.   Eli Facenda (44:46.992) Don't see my camera get help. Is the audio coming through okay? Did it switch over there to my MacBook from the other one? Or it sounds the same.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:51.564) Yeah, I can hear the audio.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (44:57.806) I don't know. All I see is like a car. It's like I don't know. It's a card with a symbol on it I wonder what that is that riverside or is that your symbol? I can't be your symbol   Eli Facenda (45:06.556) weird. Get help.   Eli Facenda (45:12.006) Let me see.   trying to check this out.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (45:19.458) We can also just finish it with audio.   Eli Facenda (45:23.556) Is it, Dude, I don't know what's going on. Sorry about that. I've never seen...   Seth Bradley, Esq. (45:28.654) no worries, dude. We can just finish it with audio anyways.   Eli Facenda (45:31.63) New recording track created the participants have been recorded.   Issue device struggling to record. High load on your device. Try closing all other apps. Give me one second. I don't have any apps open. That's really weird.   Eli Facenda (45:53.126) Yeah, I don't know man. I apologize. I Okay, well yeah   Seth Bradley, Esq. (45:57.219) you're good, We'll just finish an audio and then I'll pull up for the video. I'll just black screen to a logo or something. So all good. I don't exactly know where you're at. If you want to start that sentence over.   Eli Facenda (46:04.048) Okay, cool.   Eli Facenda (46:07.866) Yeah, I'll just, I'll say, I'll just start. So yeah, so not only have we really walked the walk with actually living what we preach, but we also understand that psychology of what it's like to be a business owner, your limitations on time and complexity and all that stuff. And because we're talking about travel, people also want to know like what's actually in store for me in this destination. I've been to 50 countries now and my business partner has been to almost 100.   We have other team members who are all over 30, 40, 50 countries. So we've been to a lot of the destinations around the world that we're advising people to go to. So we know the ins and outs, best places to stay, hidden gems, top restaurants, stuff like that, that really add another layer of personalization and true experience into the service. So I think those are the things that really make us most credible in this space.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (46:57.506) Dude, it's so important, right? Like there's so many, you know, there's so much content out there now. There's gurus and coaches and mentors, whatever you want to call them. Like the ones that are truly valuable and that people should pay attention to are the ones that are actually practicing what they preach, right? The ones that aren't just selling you education or aren't just selling you a product. Like they're actually, they've done what they're selling and they continue to   enjoy or do what they're selling.   Eli Facenda (47:28.635) 100%, yeah, if you're a living embodiment of what you do, it makes it that much easier to communicate it and sell it because you just are the thing you're selling.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (47:38.764) Yeah, absolutely. What's one thing someone listening could do today to get 1 % closer to their dream life?   Eli Facenda (47:45.089) One thing that would be the easiest is to spend 30 minutes, go on Instagram, go on your favorite social media site, go on some travel blog site, look for your dream destination, then pull up your calendar and put a time on the calendar where you're committing to go. One of my favorite quotes is from Tim Ferriss, I forget the exact quote, but basically the idea is that if you don't schedule your fun first, it won't happen.   because your business and your life will take up as much space as you allow it to. So most people find that I'll take the trip when it's convenient. I'll take the trip when I have more time. That time is never coming until you make it a priority. So the one thing they can do to get closer to their dream life is to just make a more bold commitment to putting the time on the calendar and be like, I am going and make some sort of investment, whether you're telling someone, whether you're putting some money down, whether you're learn the point stuff, that's gonna be the biggest leverage you can make.   to make sure that you actually follow through on taking these trips and then you'll find how to get there on points if you need to from there.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (48:50.766) 100 % man, gotta put it, people, entrepreneurs, people like us, we work in all the time, you've gotta put it, put it in your schedule. You've gotta block it out, commit to it.   Eli Facenda (48:59.821) Absolutely, 100%.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (49:04.554) Alright dude, I think we got it wrapped up, man.   Eli Facenda (49:05.743) Beautiful. Awesome, Dan. Well, this was super fun and I apologize agai

Kev and Codey round up all the recent news Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:49: What Have We Been Up To 00:23:52: Game Releases 00:51:09: Game Updates 01:00:01: New Games 01:16:21: Outro Links Research Story 1.0 Little Witch in the Woods 1.0 Slime Rancher 2 1.0 Grimshire Early Access Hotel Galactic Early Access Hotel Galactic Apology Out and About Release Date Out and About Release Delay Ages of Cataria Early Access Release Go-go Town Switch Space Sprouts Update 1 Terra Nil Heatwave Update Snacko 1.1 Update Everdream Valley Family Time DLC Firefly Village Honogurashi No Niwa Galactic Getaway Development Issues Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Kev: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Kevin. I’m not alone today. I (0:00:38) Codey: Oooooh though people be clamorin’ for solo Kev time. (0:00:47) Kev: Like how I push the envelope every time I’m you know, I total line but oh (0:00:53) Codey: I’m gonna be real with you. (0:00:55) Codey: I have not listened to the most recent episode. (0:00:58) Codey: I think I’m still finishing up the Tiny Garden episode. (0:01:01) Kev: That’s okay, that’s fine. That’s fine. I (0:01:04) Codey: So I still have a couple episodes to go, (0:01:06) Codey: but I just know that you rock it every time. (0:01:13) Kev: Am (0:01:14) Kev: Getting an hour plus solo recording. I do that’s mmm. I don’t know if that’s good or bad (0:01:17) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:01:20) Kev: That just so that just shows I’m very well versed in talking to myself (0:01:25) Kev: possibly too much (0:01:27) Codey: - Nah, you got, you’re good at it. (0:01:30) Codey: It’s all good. (0:01:31) Kev: Ah, yeah, okay. Well, hi everyone again. I’m Kevin (0:01:36) Codey: - Yeah, you are and I’m not Kevin, I’m Cody. (0:01:37) Kev: Yeah (0:01:39) Kev: And there you go. There we go (0:01:41) Kev: certifiably not Kevin (0:01:43) Codey: - Yeah. (0:01:43) Kev: And we are here to talk today to talk about cottagecore games. Whoo (0:01:48) Codey: - Oh woo, ow, ow, ow. (0:01:50) Kev: Now you dear listener may be wondering why cottagecore and not more deep diving into the Lord of (0:01:56) Codey: Yeah, we really set we set y’all up for, uh, for some, some shire stuff. But alas, we (0:02:00) Kev: And well (0:02:04) Kev: The month of the Shire (0:02:08) Codey: are here, not for the shire. (0:02:10) Kev: The fake out oh, but you know, you know what I’m gonna add something to the what I’ve been up to (0:02:18) Codey: Oh, okay, cool. (0:02:22) Kev: Okay (0:02:24) Kev: But yeah, we’re all over and we’re here to talk about news because news is built up (0:02:28) Kev: We are spoiler alert (0:02:32) Kev: We’re working on the Shire episode, whatever the tale of the Shire episode, but we needed a weak buffer (0:02:36) Kev: And so Cody and I said alright, we’ll just do some news because there’s plenty of news to talk about with the build-up. So (0:02:40) Codey: Yeah. It sure has been a hot minute. (0:02:45) Kev: Yep (0:02:47) Kev: Okay, so yeah news catch up and we’ll get to that as we do (0:02:50) Kev: But before that Cody tell me what has been going on over over there in Cody World (0:02:56) Codey: to think of it. So I think, uh, during those episodes recording with Johnny, I had not yet (0:03:03) Codey: gone to beetle school. So since that time I went to beetle school, you guys, and I had some, (0:03:11) Codey: it was really fun. Uh, I was up in the Chiricahua’s in Arizona, which is not like my first thought. (0:03:16) Codey: I was like, Oh God, Arizona, not looking forward to this super hot. I don’t do hot. Uh, the Chiricahua’s (0:03:21) Codey: were. Lovely. Um, I want to say it never got above like 70 (0:03:26) Codey: degrees. It was like around 70 degrees, but we could go down (0:03:26) Kev: Ooh, that’s lovely! (0:03:31) Codey: into the desert. And so we went into the desert like at night a (0:03:34) Codey: couple times and we got to see some, some tarantulas and some (0:03:38) Codey: rattlesnakes. And so like we got to, to adventure. We also went (0:03:43) Codey: up higher where it was almost like 11,000 feet elevation, um, (0:03:48) Codey: in the Chiricahuas. And it was, it was actually very cold up (0:03:50) Codey: there. I was like, I should have brought a jacket. Yeah. (0:03:52) Kev: Yeah, yeah, it’s the elevation right cuz Atlanta’s similar where we’re you know down South deep, Georgia (0:03:57) Kev: But what’s its mountain eats high evolution into elevation so it can still get chilly (0:04:01) Codey: Yeah. So that was really fun. I learned a lot about Beatles and I feel a lot more confident now. (0:04:06) Kev: So and and you did you graduate are you certified are you do you have a license to be a beetle now? (0:04:13) Codey: You know, it’s funny because when I went to fly school last summer, they gave me a little certificate. (0:04:18) Kev: Yeah (0:04:21) Codey: We did not get a certificate for Beatles. So I, all I have, all I have is the memories. (0:04:23) Kev: Oh, oh no the Beatles got a step up their game (0:04:31) Codey: Uh, the one thing that is beneficial about this is so fly school was more of an international thing. (0:04:36) Codey: There were like maybe six or seven of us that were from the US, but most of the students were from, um, all over the world. (0:04:43) Codey: But so it is unlikely for me to run into the people that I met from fly school at the conferences that I go to because I mostly just go to United States conferences. (0:04:52) Codey: But all, almost all the beetle people, except for like two people, uh, there was a Canadian and a New Zealander. Um, they were all. (0:05:01) Codey: Uh, citizens of America. And so I will be seeing most of them at the conference that I’m going to in November. Very stoked about that. (0:05:09) Codey: Um, cause you make these connections and then, you know, I, it’s like, Oh man, when am I ever going to see that? (0:05:15) Codey: That really cool Italian from, from fly school or whatever. Um, but yeah, I will see most of these people again. (0:05:16) Kev: - Yeah. (0:05:18) Kev: Yeah. (laughs) (0:05:22) Codey: And it’s just great to start building those connections. Um, so I did that. (0:05:27) Codey: that. (0:05:31) Codey: I have also been playing, I’m still playing honey Grove. (0:05:35) Codey: Um, I have unlocked a new explorer B so I’m now at five, but I think there’s six. (0:05:44) Codey: And I’m just like playing it a little bit at a time. (0:05:47) Codey: I’m working on my specimens as per usual so I will graduate or I will defend in the in December now I have had to. (0:05:54) Kev: Okay, these are real specimens. We switched to not the honeygrove specimens (0:05:56) Codey: Correct. We’ve switched to real life. (0:06:01) Codey: Yeah, into the real world. (0:06:04) Codey: So yeah, working on that, I had almost the entire time we were (0:06:08) Codey: kind of on our little break and we were doing the Lord of the (0:06:11) Kev: Yeah. (0:06:12) Codey: Rings stuff. I actually had people that helped me. So I (0:06:13) Kev: Yeah. (0:06:15) Kev: No. (0:06:16) Codey: wasn’t doing everything by myself, which was amazing. Yeah, (0:06:18) Kev: You had cronies. (0:06:20) Codey: we called him my henchmen. And so I had henchmen and they did (0:06:21) Kev: Yeah, there you go, that’s correct. (0:06:25) Codey: an amazing job and they learned so much and I’m so proud of (0:06:28) Codey: them. But I am like almost back to being solo now and I (0:06:31) Codey: am stressing but I got it. I’ve got this but I had to push back (0:06:36) Codey: my defense just because of how much work so I will be defending (0:06:40) Codey: in December now fingers crossed and then actually like graduating (0:06:45) Codey: and like walking for my doctorate in the spring, which (0:06:46) Kev: Oh, snap. (0:06:48) Codey: I don’t super care about it being like so far out. (0:06:52) Kev: Yeah. (0:06:52) Codey: It’s actually better for a lot of my family members that want (0:06:55) Codey: to come and watch me walk because yeah, so they don’t have (0:06:57) Kev: To plan, yeah. (0:06:58) Kev: Mm-hmm. (0:06:59) Codey: to come when it’s like. (0:07:01) Codey: Possibly snowy. (0:07:03) Codey: There’ve been times when my mom wanted to come visit or I wanted to go visit (0:07:06) Codey: home and it like during the June, um, sorry, December, um, January timeframe. (0:07:12) Kev: Yeah. (0:07:13) Codey: Then it just doesn’t work. (0:07:14) Kev: Yeah. (0:07:15) Codey: So it’s better for it to be. (0:07:16) Kev: Yeah. (0:07:16) Kev: I mean, yeah, it’s wild how people who don’t live in snowy areas just absolutely get bodied (0:07:26) Codey: Well, but even even that that I mean even just irrespective of that there is the fact that like (0:07:26) Kev: by snow. (0:07:32) Codey: We will have entire like planes shut down like people will try and travel like the last time I tried to go there (0:07:36) Kev: Oh, that… mmm… that is true. (0:07:41) Codey: I (0:07:42) Codey: Well, what’s the last time? (0:07:43) Codey: I don’t know (0:07:44) Codey: I tried to go home and I was gonna be home for like two and a half weeks and then I ended up having to cut (0:07:48) Codey: It short because my flight got delayed and then I finally got on the plane (0:07:52) Codey: Like it got delayed by like two days and then I finally got (0:07:54) Kev: No, my god, oh my goodness, oh (0:07:56) Codey: Yeah, and then I finally got on the plane. I was on the plane and then there were they had mechanical issues (0:08:00) Codey: And then finally when they can’t mechanical issues (0:08:01) Kev: No (0:08:03) Codey: Cleared up there was that flight was supposed to go to Chicago O’Hare and then O’Hare was getting like three feet of snow (0:08:10) Codey: So they were like, you know, you guys can sit tight (0:08:13) Codey: But we are basically being told to wait and I was just like nope screw it. I just left (0:08:16) Kev: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah (0:08:20) Codey: like (0:08:22) Codey: No (0:08:23) Codey: But yeah, so that kind of stuff happens (0:08:24) Kev: Apologies to Aislinn for triggering her (0:08:26) Codey: especially (0:08:30) Codey: Yeah, it’s I mean, yeah, she knows all about it and (0:08:34) Codey: Yeah going even just like going to Arizona and my stuff got canceled a million times. So (0:08:40) Codey: It’s just a hard time out there right now for sure (0:08:44) Codey: But then my last update is I’m playing Tales of the Shire (0:08:50) Kev: Did you- did you- did you- did- how far are you? (0:08:53) Codey: Um, I don’t… (0:08:56) Codey: Are you playing it too? (0:08:57) Kev: No, I’m not. I’m just curious. (0:08:58) Codey: Oh, okay. (0:08:59) Kev: I- did you have, you know, ballpark estimate? 50%? (0:09:02) Codey: No, no, no, not anywhere near that. (0:09:03) Kev: Okay. (0:09:04) Codey: I’m still in the same… (0:09:05) Kev: There you go. (0:09:06) Codey: I’m still in the first, like… (0:09:08) Codey: I think you start in summer. (0:09:10) Kev: Okay. (0:09:10) Codey: And I’m still in summer. (0:09:11) Kev: Mmm, ahh. (0:09:12) Codey: Um, but I feel like I’m getting… (0:09:18) Codey: I’m, like, going at a good clip. (0:09:19) Codey: I just was gone for a long time. (0:09:22) Codey: And then now that I’m back, (0:09:23) Codey: I’ve been so busy with, like, getting caught up with work. (0:09:24) Kev: Yeah. (0:09:26) Codey: Visiting and stuff, and so, yeah. (0:09:27) Kev: Ahh, alright, alright. (0:09:29) Codey: Uh, well, so that’s what I’ve been up to. (0:09:30) Kev: Well, uh… (0:09:31) Codey: What have you been up to, Kev? (0:09:32) Kev: Well, I was just gonna say, I’m waiting to hear when you finally defeat Sauron, um, Tails of the Shire, but, uh… (0:09:38) Kev: But, hahaha, but, uh… (0:09:40) Codey: That is, that is interesting. (0:09:42) Codey: I’m at the point, um, I don’t know if… (0:09:44) Codey: So this is not a spoiler. (0:09:45) Codey: I don’t know if “Tales of the Shire” is before or after. (0:09:49) Codey: So, um, yeah, I’m not entirely sure. (0:09:53) Codey: It is unclear to me at this, at this stage. (0:09:56) Kev: What if you invite Sauron to tea and you don’t even know it? (0:09:56) Codey: I… (0:09:59) Kev: It could happen. (0:10:00) Codey: You know what? (0:10:01) Codey: It could happen. (0:10:07) Kev: That’s good stuff. (0:10:09) Kev: Okay, well, this past week I’ve been slammed by work. (0:10:13) Kev: I did the coming of the office on, (0:10:15) Kev: I have to come into the office on Saturday yesterday (0:10:18) Kev: ‘cause it’s that bad. (0:10:20) Kev: But other than that, the week before wasn’t as bad. (0:10:26) Kev: There was actually an office party dinner thing (0:10:30) Kev: where I tried to karaoke for the first time. (0:10:32) Codey: Ooh, did you like, did you enjoy it? (0:10:34) Kev: Oh yeah, so, okay. (0:10:36) Kev: I mean, first of all, I am into music, period. (0:10:39) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:10:41) Kev: I am the one, first one on and last one off, (0:10:44) Kev: generally the dance floor. (0:10:46) Kev: Now, this wasn’t a dance floor, (0:10:48) Kev: even though I was moving a bit. (0:10:50) Kev: But, I mean, as evidenced by here, this endeavor, (0:10:54) Kev: I have no problem scre- (0:10:56) Kev: screaming things into a microphone so karaoke was to fit like a glove (0:11:01) Kev: um I I did many songs I don’t remember all of it I know I did um at first they (0:11:09) Kev: did like a curated list cuz they want to stay professionally yada yada but by the (0:11:14) Kev: end of it we’re just doing whatever I know I did the mean canto Columbia mean (0:11:19) Kev: canto from the Disney movie in canto I sung in Spanish build me up buttercup (0:11:22) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:11:26) Kev: there um oh my girl by the temptations that was a good one so on and so forth (0:11:33) Kev: anyways I did karaoke stay tuned will that show up on a solo ops or maybe I (0:11:38) Codey: Ooh, like you would do karaoke on a solo episode. (0:11:43) Kev: cannot be stopped you do will I have a new theme song written for the heart (0:11:48) Kev: season maybe yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah (0:11:50) Codey: I might, you know what, if ever we’re going to record again, I might have to, you know, I’m sick. (0:11:56) Kev: I mean will yeah oh my gosh I’ll should do one of those patreon goals you know (0:11:58) Codey: I want to hear the karaoke. (0:12:04) Codey: That would, you know what, that would be fun, having a greenhouse of karaoke. (0:12:08) Codey: I’m going to put that on there. I have green, oh my gosh, yeah, I have three greenhouses with (0:12:16) Kev: yeah we need to get that we got it we got (0:12:19) Codey: Kev on a sticky note on my laptop and it’s the Sonic 3 movie, Bluey and now karaoke. (0:12:26) Kev: all those are all excellent topics I love blue so I don’t watch blue in a (0:12:27) Codey: I know. (0:12:30) Kev: minute I’m not seeing all the way to something we’ll get there um okay but (0:12:36) Kev: yes karaoke so I carry okie on unabashedly and and yeah um okay game (0:12:44) Kev: stuff though um okay oh okay DK bonanza came out I do not have a switch to my (0:12:50) Kev: brother does I do not so I’ve not played it but (0:12:56) Kev: I do play Tetris 99 and they do events every now and then they’re the kind of (0:12:58) Codey: - Okay, yep. (0:13:03) Kev: always under the radar but I pick up on them because I’m a fiend for Tetris (0:13:07) Kev: DK Bonanza had an event where they put you know a special skin on the Tetris (0:13:12) Kev: screen the blocks and and they play music from the game and so on and so (0:13:17) Kev: forth it was great it’s fantastic music was stellar absolutely stellar so much (0:13:24) Kev: So that like a day or two after. (0:13:26) Kev: I was like, man, I want more of that DK Bonanza music in my veins. (0:13:30) Kev: So I loaded up on the done, you know, YouTube or whatever. (0:13:34) Kev: And then I saw spoilers. (0:13:35) Kev: I didn’t think I could ever see spoilers for a Donkey Kong game, but musical spoilers. (0:13:42) Kev: Which is wild that one, there were spoilers in the Donkey Kong game, but there are. (0:13:47) Kev: And two, that I was spoiled by the soundtrack. (0:13:49) Codey: by this soundtrack done dirty (0:13:53) Kev: so I uh you know (0:13:56) Kev: I haven’t played it but I will say that’s one of the greatest games ever (0:14:00) Kev: from what I’ve seen that will happen (0:14:03) Kev: oh goodness but um so yeah the DK bonanza it’s already good thumbs up from (0:14:10) Kev: you without playing it oh okay oh you know here’s another getting on game (0:14:16) Kev: thing and hey hey here we go people I’m still keeping it in theme I have been (0:14:21) Kev: watching Rings of Power on the Prime Video. (0:14:23) Codey: Ooooh. (0:14:26) Kev: Umm, that’s the Lord of the Rings the prequel series question mark? (0:14:29) Codey: Yeah, it’s it’s a prequel series. (0:14:30) Kev: I g- (0:14:32) Kev: Yeah, it is. I mean like, you know, it’s big open world of Tolkien lore, whatever, but- (0:14:38) Kev: But yes, it happens before the Lord of the Rings. (0:14:40) Kev: Umm… (0:14:41) Kev: I- I- Are you familiar with this at all, Cody? (0:14:44) Codey: unfortunately. Unfortunately, I wish I could get those hours back. No, so it is beautiful. (0:14:47) Kev: Oh, you are. (0:14:48) Kev: Th- That’s unfortunately you are. (0:14:56) Kev: That is all right. Oh no, uh-huh (0:15:00) Codey: It’s beautiful, but they only got rights to like some of the content. And so they just had to like, (0:15:08) Codey: make stuff up, and I hate it. Um. (0:15:09) Kev: Yeah, that’s what I’ve heard I (0:15:15) Codey: So without getting too, like, too nerdy, but this is still going to be fairly nerdy. And I could be (0:15:23) Codey: wrong, but this is kind of how I remember it. So Galadriel’s brothers were like fighting. They were (0:15:32) Codey: trying to get revenge on, I think Sauron, because he killed someone who was related to them in the (0:15:38) Codey: war of the, like, when they were trying to fight over the Silmarils. And so they basically like, killed. (0:15:44) Codey: They ended up, like, almost killing each other because they were just so, like, embroiled in this (0:15:47) Kev: - Yeah. (0:15:49) Codey: drama. And Galadriel, like, is known in the Silmarillion to have been like, I don’t want to (0:15:56) Codey: take part of my brother’s war, or my brother’s wars, or whatever. And then the Rings of Power (0:15:58) Kev: Okay, yeah (0:16:02) Codey: is all her taking part in her brother’s wars. And I’m like, no! So that was right away. I was like, (0:16:04) Kev: It is (0:16:08) Kev: Oh (0:16:12) Codey: Oh, I’m grumpy because she was. (0:16:13) Kev: That’s incredible (0:16:14) Codey: She was supposed to be like, not caring. (0:16:18) Codey: And she was just like, well, screw you guys. (0:16:20) Codey: I’m going to go live in the woods and. (0:16:21) Kev: I’m going to go in sight more war. Oh (0:16:24) Codey: Yeah, exactly. (0:16:25) Codey: And so, but I get they had to do things differently and like. (0:16:28) Kev: That’s that’s amazing (0:16:30) Kev: So I guess I have the privilege of being a normie like I have watched Florida the Rings in the Hobbit (0:16:34) Codey: Yeah. (0:16:35) Kev: But I’m I’m not deep in there. It’s it’s it’s I’ve struggled for it just to stick with me (0:16:40) Codey: Well, and there’s just like so much like, who is so wrong? (0:16:43) Kev: Yeah (0:16:45) Kev: Yes (0:16:45) Codey: Are we all Sauron? (0:16:48) Codey: Like, there’s a Sauron in all of us. (0:16:48) Kev: Maybe that maybe if we believe it (0:16:50) Codey: And I like the whole time and I’m just like, okay, I’m, I’m done with this. (0:16:54) Codey: Like, I, uh, (0:16:58) Kev: He does (0:17:00) Kev: That is probably (0:17:02) Kev: like one of the most (0:17:04) Kev: entertaining but in a bad kind of way like he’s very (0:17:08) Kev: Over the top almost like I mean not not ridiculously so but compared to the the movies, right? (0:17:13) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:17:14) Kev: Sauron is a you know more of a force. He’s not a guy right? (0:17:17) Kev: He’s he is the giant eyeball in the sky and this overwhelming presence and here he’s he compared to that (0:17:23) Kev: He feels like a mustache twirling, you know, ooh spooky bit (0:17:26) Codey: Yeah, yeah. (0:17:29) Kev: But that’s it. I mean I’ve been enjoying it. I don’t know all the lore (0:17:32) Kev: I point to the screen when I know a thing but then that’s it (0:17:36) Kev: It’s the productions. Well done. It’s good production better production than the Hobbit (0:17:40) Codey: Yeah, it’s gorgeous. (0:17:41) Codey: It is beautiful and like, but I, (0:17:44) Codey: so I don’t think I’ve watched past the first season. (0:17:46) Codey: I don’t know how much there is. (0:17:48) Kev: There’s three two and they’re working on (0:17:51) Codey: Okay, I didn’t watch past the first one (0:17:53) Codey: because I just, I need to like take off my snooty hat, (0:17:58) Kev: - Yeah. (0:17:59) Codey: you know, and just let things be different and stuff. (0:18:02) Codey: and I just have yet to… (0:18:05) Codey: get the balls to do that, I guess, I don’t know. (0:18:08) Kev: Yeah, it’s hmm. I will I will say again. I say this as a very (0:18:14) Kev: novice casual Lord of the Rings enjoyer (0:18:16) Kev: I feel like they’re really trying hard to tie it to the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, you know the movies right because like (0:18:20) Codey: Yeah, but they’re like literally not supposed to. (0:18:24) Kev: Yeah, yeah, I know because there’s the the hobbits. They’re not even called hobbits (0:18:28) Kev: I forget anyways there are two hobbits and it’s very clearly trying to evoke Sam and Frodo even though they’re not and but no (0:18:37) Kev: Whatever (0:18:38) Kev: It’s fine. I’m enjoying it. Whatever. There you go (0:18:38) Codey: Yep, wasn’t my favorite. It’s I it is enjoyable, especially I think if you have not seen. Yeah, (0:18:45) Kev: The less you know the less, you know with the little tuning star (0:18:47) Codey: the last you know. But like what before it was coming up, I was like, so because I knew it was (0:18:52) Codey: coming. So I read that I was like, I’m gonna read the Silmarillion and then I can have like a little (0:18:53) Kev: Yeah (0:18:56) Codey: bit of idea and I really just shouldn’t have because it ruined it for me. Yep. (0:18:59) Kev: You know too much (0:19:01) Kev: You’re you’re into deep (0:19:03) Kev: Yeah, but I mean it’s it’s fine like it it’s it’s there are worse things to watch (0:19:08) Codey: Yeah, and I know, no, no, dude, that third one, this is me trying not to yell right now. (0:19:09) Kev: Arguably some of the Hobbit movies. Mm-hmm. That third one’s rough. I’m just sorry (0:19:20) Codey: That third one is rough for people because they don’t watch the extended edition. (0:19:25) Kev: Yeah (0:19:27) Codey: You got to watch all of it. (0:19:28) Kev: Okay, you know what that’s probably fair just that’s oh (0:19:31) Codey: There’s so much that’s like cut out that makes it seem like not then you’re like, (0:19:34) Kev: I believe it (0:19:37) Codey: why is he why is this (0:19:38) Codey: so (0:19:39) Kev: You (0:19:40) Kev: That is correct. That is my reaction to many things in that movie is someone who’s not seen the extended cut (0:19:46) Codey: You gotta see the extended come if you if you believe if you think the Hobbit movies are bad come come (0:19:47) Kev: Okay (0:19:51) Codey: We’ll go watch if you and you haven’t seen the extended and you haven’t seen the extended editions (0:19:52) Kev: Go listen to the episode (0:19:56) Codey: Go watch them and then come back to me (0:19:59) Kev: Okay, we have a greenhouse episode on the hobbit I have not listened to it to be fair (0:20:02) Codey: We do (0:20:06) Codey: We do we had fun with those for sure (0:20:07) Kev: But I will (0:20:08) Kev: Yeah, I bet (0:20:10) Codey: When we were recording them, we were like, I don’t know if I was gonna cut half of this or not (0:20:14) Kev: As Al pointed out those greenhouse discussions sparked more discussion in the slack than any other episode of anything (0:20:16) Codey: You (0:20:19) Codey: Yeah, maybe we just need to be let loose (0:20:29) Kev: Okay, um, but yeah, okay now they all right one more thing um for me um the big one (0:20:36) Kev: Uh, Drumroll, please unicorn overla- (0:20:38) Kev: Oh Lord, credits hit today baby! (0:20:41) Codey: Ooh! (0:20:43) Kev: Ooh, um, so I did, like, everything, to be fair, right? (0:20:43) Codey: How many hours is that? (0:20:48) Kev: ‘Cause they’re- they’re very clear, like, here’s the main missions, here’s a bunch of side missions, and you don’t- they’re optional. (0:20:54) Kev: Uh, I did it all, I clocked in at about 110 hours, I think it was. (0:21:00) Kev: Um, and yeah- (0:21:04) Kev: So, I mean, overall thumbs up, my comments are still- (0:21:07) Kev: It’s a– (0:21:08) Kev: Consistent game, I’ll say that. (0:21:10) Kev: Like it’s– (0:21:12) Kev: It’s the strategy gameplay. The story is nothing to write home about. It’s straightforward fantasy (0:21:21) Kev: armies and whatnot. (0:21:23) Kev: Political royalty, yada, yada. (0:21:26) Kev: So it’s enjoyable. It’s comfort food for me. So I enjoy it. Like it’s quality. Don’t get me wrong. (0:21:29) Codey: Yeah. (0:21:32) Kev: It’s not bad, but it just hits the spot for me. (0:21:36) Kev: My biggest complaint and this is gonna sound weird cuz I (0:21:39) Kev: Just said I clocked in 110 hours (0:21:41) Kev: it’s it’s not enough they’re missing and and (0:21:48) Kev: Specifically the end I think I mentioned this on a previous episode, but (0:21:52) Kev: As it came out the developers ran out of money towards the end and you can feel it you can feel it (0:22:00) Kev: So the like I said, there’s main missions, right? And as you beat them, you know (0:22:04) Kev: You’ll not you progress towards the final mission in the (0:22:09) Kev: ultimate main mission you unlock you get one new character a new class that you’ve never had before (0:22:16) Codey: Okay. (0:22:17) Kev: Which in you know these kind of strategy games, that’s a big deal like you don’t get any time to use your new toy basically (0:22:23) Codey: Mm hmm. (0:22:24) Codey: Yeah. (0:22:24) Kev: Congrats, you finally got the last character go beat the game (0:22:29) Kev: Now that’s it there is a little post game epilogue that I can do and whatnot (0:22:35) Kev: And it is still overall very big. It has a lot of (0:22:39) Kev: Variations and and just little things. There’s a couple of different endings you can do (0:22:45) Kev: There’s relationships and and and support conversations that are fun (0:22:52) Kev: But but yeah overall it’s great (0:22:56) Kev: one of the (0:22:58) Kev: Interesting things to get the true the best ending you have to get hitched you have to find a partner (0:23:02) Codey: Mmm. Boo. (0:23:04) Kev: Which is yeah (0:23:07) Kev: Yeah, they try to play it up in the (0:23:08) Kev: it’s it’s a little it’s a little forced a little you know shoehorned in but but (0:23:15) Kev: whatever I still I still have a lot of fun I’m very happy I want more I want (0:23:21) Kev: unicorn overlord 2 now please but yeah just thumbs up overall and that game (0:23:28) Kev: frequently goes on sale so if you have any interest in strategy you know fantasy (0:23:33) Kev: stuff go for it it’s good but okay and hey I hit credits on the game that (0:23:38) Kev: been often for me and at least not lately so yeah all right okay so that’s (0:23:43) Kev: uh that’s that’s stuff we’ve been up to whoo all right let’s get into news (0:23:50) Kev: there’s a lot of it all right we’re gonna start off with the game about Cody (0:23:56) Kev: research story in honor of her almost getting done so they came out with 1.0 (0:24:02) Kev: that is out now I don’t know when it would July it’s been (0:24:09) Kev: for a while more than now yep exactly (0:24:10) Codey: Well, yeah news catch-up episode everybody (0:24:15) Codey: Yeah, so this uh, this adds the epilogue the conclusion some end credits, you know proposals and marriage (0:24:22) Codey: One thing that I super enjoy about this is they have 10 marriage candidates and the proposals can either be player (0:24:29) Codey: initiated or NPC initiated (0:24:32) Kev: Oh, that’s… Oh my gosh! Has that been done before? (0:24:34) Codey: So I (0:24:37) Kev: Oh… (0:24:37) Codey: I don’t know, but I kind of like that where you’re. (0:24:40) Codey: Spend in time with an NPC and then suddenly you just hit a cut scene and they’re proposing to you like I think that’s awesome. (0:24:49) Kev: pretty good that’s pretty like you know obviously well documented lamenting of (0:24:54) Kev: the relationship mechanic or whatever but if you’re gonna do it put in some (0:24:57) Codey: Right. (0:24:59) Kev: effort do something new that’s good I like that that’s good (0:25:01) Codey: Yeah. (0:25:03) Codey: Definitely like that. (0:25:05) Codey: Give more to say about that. (0:25:07) Kev: no just with two things one that makes you think of unicorn oh Lord at one one (0:25:12) Kev: quick shout out just I remembered to get the true ending you have to have your (0:25:16) Kev: Which I think this is actually kind of a thumbs (0:25:19) Kev: up for me. You have to have whoever your selected partner is in your party for the final fight to get the true ending, which I think is kind of nice. (0:25:28) Kev: But yeah, no, just overall, I think that’s great. Having the other person initiate it, that’s great. (0:25:34) Kev: Yeah, no, I’m still kind of on the fence of it being included in the game at all, but here we are, and they did work, so I’ll give them props for that. (0:25:45) Codey: Um, yeah, so that was cool. (0:25:47) Codey: They also had some quality of life adjustments. (0:25:50) Codey: Um, so that brings the game to its 1.0, which is great. (0:25:53) Codey: And the current price is 1399. (0:25:55) Codey: They had it on sale for 60% off, I believe, um, for a hot minute. (0:26:00) Codey: But I think by the time this comes out, it’s already gone. (0:26:03) Codey: So, um, yeah, so, but that’s fine. (0:26:04) Kev: store. Yeah, it’s really not. And that’s, that’s fine. Yeah, the kind I almost feel bad that (0:26:07) Codey: 1399 is nothing. (0:26:08) Codey: Um, on August 28th, they’re going to increase it to 1499. (0:26:15) Codey: Just still feel nothing. (0:26:17) Codey: So you guys. (0:26:21) Kev: they said we, we are not charging, we’re not making money, they, they do deserve that money. (0:26:26) Codey: Yeah, so that was cool. (0:26:26) Kev: So good for them. (0:26:30) Codey: And then the final thing, they had a couple hints (0:26:34) Codey: of what they’re working on next. (0:26:35) Codey: And they are going to do Mac ports and Linux ports. (0:26:41) Codey: But Mac– ooh, very excited about that. (0:26:43) Kev: - Yeah, woo! (0:26:48) Codey: I just never touch my PC anymore. (0:26:50) Kev: laughs I… (0:26:52) Codey: So we’re going to move it up. (0:26:54) Codey: We’re supposed to move it up here this week. (0:26:56) Codey: Um, but I’m also like very busy right now. (0:26:59) Codey: So there’s no way I’m going to play it soon, but. (0:27:02) Kev: Yeah, I have never owned an Apple product. No, that’s not true. I had an iPad or iPod. (0:27:08) Codey: iPod. (0:27:08) Kev: Yeah, that’s an iPod, yes. Back in the day, like the Mini, the Nano, whatever. That’s it. (0:27:14) Kev: But hey, good for you people. Man, those romancibles, they are pretty people. (0:27:18) Codey: - Yeah. (0:27:23) Codey: That’s pretty, yeah. (0:27:25) Codey: They, yeah. (0:27:26) Kev: Sparkles all over. Somebody has birds in there. Good for them. (0:27:30) Codey: Yep. (0:27:32) Kev: All right. Yeah, good for your research story. I do think it is worth celebrating any of these games (0:27:39) Kev: because we’ve seen them in the docket so long, hit 1.0. So good for you. Yeah, (0:27:44) Kev: and it feels like a 1.0 release. Speaking of 1.0s, a little witch in the woods. (0:27:53) Kev: September 4th, they’re dropping the 1.0. And yeah, let’s hear it. (0:28:02) Kev: Okay, right now it’s $16. That is comparable to the other ones. Oh man, these people, (0:28:11) Kev: like, I feel weird saying it. I just feel bad for these devs who work so hard. (0:28:15) Kev: They could probably go up to $19.99. I’m just saying. No one’s gonna weep over the extra (0:28:17) Codey: Yeah, like that’s not going to be that’s not going to break the bank. (0:28:21) Kev: five bucks. I’m just saying. No, it’s not. They deserve a 20. I’m just saying. Anyways, (0:28:30) Kev: So yeah, it’s dropped (0:28:32) Kev: September 4th, it’s you know, all sorts of new features new areas the villager the village with new villagers stories (0:28:41) Kev: quality of life, etc, etc (0:28:44) Kev: so yeah, that’s (0:28:46) Kev: Yeah, good for them. That’ll be you know more less than a month when this drops (0:28:54) Kev: So yeah, I’m looking forward to that. Yeah, I don’t know how do we (0:29:00) Kev: I’m just thinking, how do I feel about the- (0:29:02) Kev: It does look very cute. I like the art style a lot. Will I play this? I don’t know, maybe. (0:29:06) Codey: Yeah, I’m, I don’t know how I feel bad, but I’m, I’m, I’m done with witches, man. I’ve. (0:29:12) Kev: It it has been used exhaustively in this space hasn’t it? (0:29:19) Kev: Yeah (0:29:20) Kev: But but hey (0:29:23) Kev: Well, let’s say here wait one second. Well, you know what? Let’s uh, oh gosh (0:29:30) Kev: No, never mind. Okay. Okay. Um, alright, let’s talk about (0:29:34) Kev: another release coming out (0:29:36) Kev: Slime Rancher 2 September 23rd that is another 1.0. It’s (0:29:42) Kev: Coming out on (0:29:44) Kev: Everything pretty much nuts. Not true steam epic games PS. I can’t believe the epic game store still running (0:29:50) Codey: Yep. Yep. (0:29:50) Kev: PS 5 and Xbox series x slash x s whatever that whatever the current letter is not switch not switch - (0:29:59) Kev: but (0:30:01) Kev: Yeah, it’s coming out. It looks (0:30:04) Kev: Chaotic and fun. It’s it’s weird. We don’t talk about first-person shooters on this on this show much (0:30:10) Kev: But yeah, here we go with you (0:30:12) Kev: Vacuum up or launch the slimes (0:30:15) Kev: Yeah, I don’t know the well. I didn’t play the first one. I will probably not play. There’s nothing wrong with it (0:30:21) Kev: I’m just busy (0:30:22) Codey: Yeah, not not super for me either. But I know some people (0:30:26) Codey: are really excited about it. So very happy for them that it is (0:30:28) Kev: Yeah, no it (0:30:30) Codey: coming out in a month and a half. (0:30:32) Kev: It looks like a quality game. I will say that so good for you so I’m rancher to have people (0:30:38) Kev: Alright, now let’s keep rolling. (0:30:43) Kev: Ok, we’re backing off from the releases. (0:30:46) Kev: Let’s go now to our bread and butter on the show, Early Access and Betas. (0:30:52) Kev: Early Access for the game called Grimshire. (0:30:58) Kev: It is officially out now. (0:31:02) Kev: Let’s see here. (0:31:04) Kev: Here, you wrote some notes, take it away Cody. (0:31:06) Codey: - Yeah, so I wrote some notes (0:31:08) Codey: because I hadn’t really heard about this game (0:31:10) Codey: and I was like, what, this is Grimshire? (0:31:14) Codey: But this is a cozy game podcast, (0:31:16) Codey: like Cottagecore game podcast, what? (0:31:18) Codey: And so I went and looked at it and it is, it’s cute. (0:31:22) Codey: It reminds me, like the character models (0:31:25) Codey: remind me a lot of Redwall. (0:31:28) Codey: Did you ever read the Redwall books? (0:31:30) Kev: Yeah yo, so yeah, this is Redwall is like one of my favorite fantasy variants. (0:31:37) Kev: I don’t know how to describe that, but like, because anytime you, the critter, it’s like anthropomorphic critters and little animals. (0:31:44) Codey: Mm-hmm. (0:31:45) Kev: I’m, I’m down like 10, I’m not going to lie. (0:31:50) Kev: That’s kind of what got me into magic. (0:31:52) Kev: They released a set called bloom burrow, which was Redwall s magic cards. (0:31:52) Codey: [LAUGHS] Yeah. (0:31:57) Kev: and it kind of caught my eye. (0:32:00) Kev: So yes, I love Redwall very much. (0:32:02) Codey: Yeah, so it reminds me of that and then, um, I kind of read more about it. (0:32:07) Codey: They said, quote, we’ve been working on this cozy but grim little world for the past three (0:32:11) Codey: years. (0:32:12) Codey: And I was like, cozy but grim? (0:32:16) Codey: Like how can something be cozy and grim at the same time? (0:32:20) Codey: But I have also been recently watching Little House on the Prairie. (0:32:24) Kev: Oh! Oh! That is, how should I put this? One of the Soria family staples. We’ve watched the series at least four times in the entirety! (0:32:27) Codey: Did you ever watch that show? (0:32:33) Codey: Okay. (0:32:38) Codey: Okay cool. (0:32:39) Codey: Yeah, so I would also describe that as cozy but grim. (0:32:44) Kev: Every episode of Tragedy, you can’t. (0:32:46) Codey: Every single episode. (0:32:48) Codey: And I was like texting Jeff cause I was watching them and I would just text him suddenly and (0:32:53) Codey: be like, she got a pet raccoon and then they thought the raccoon had rabies. (0:32:56) Kev: Oh, no, that episode! (0:32:59) Codey: And then he was like literally about to shoot the dog. (0:33:02) Codey: And the raccoon also bit Laura. (0:33:04) Codey: So if the dog got rabies, she was going to have rabies and then it was. (0:33:08) Codey: And I’m just like, I’m like sobbing, just tears streaming down my face. (0:33:12) Kev: The raccoon ups that one’s intense. Oh my gosh (0:33:12) Codey: And he was just, that was intense. (0:33:15) Codey: This is first season, like so many things happened in the first season. (0:33:19) Codey: And I’m like, Oh yeah, I would have described that also as cozy, but grim. (0:33:23) Kev: Yeah (0:33:23) Codey: So I get it. (0:33:26) Kev: Yeah (0:33:27) Kev: But yeah, and I mean if you watch the trailer for Grimshire here like yeah, it’s it’s pretty grim like towards the end (0:33:34) Kev: You see like the story is about (0:33:37) Codey: plague (0:33:37) Kev: Some survival stuff. There is a pyre. There’s a funeral pyre (0:33:39) Codey: Yeah (0:33:41) Codey: Yeah, cuz there’s plague there’s plague in the area so which is also a little house of the food (0:33:42) Kev: And people wondering if they’re gonna die (0:33:45) Kev: Yeah (0:33:48) Kev: More than multiple (0:33:49) Codey: More than one. Oh, no (0:33:51) Codey: Well, yeah (0:33:52) Codey: I guess cuz there I just they just had a typhus outbreak in this one and it didn’t make I know one of them (0:33:54) Kev: Yeah (0:33:57) Codey: Makes the sister go blind anyway (0:34:01) Codey: So they said quote in early access you can play throughout year one (0:34:04) Codey: but your file will be stuck on winter 28th once you get there. (0:34:07) Codey: The day keeps repeating after you go to bed, (0:34:09) Codey: and we will be adding more content and story in the future. (0:34:11) Codey: So just a heads up, if this is something (0:34:13) Codey: that you were going to think about doing, (0:34:16) Codey: then you’re not going to be able to go further than that. (0:34:20) Codey: And they also said that their old demo save files (0:34:24) Codey: won’t carry over into the full game. (0:34:27) Codey: So if there are any new demo– (0:34:32) Codey: if you restart a new demo now in the early access, (0:34:37) Codey: that will be compatible with the full game. (0:34:39) Codey: But if you’ve played the demo before, (0:34:43) Codey: you will have to start over. (0:34:45) Codey: Just a heads up. (0:34:46) Kev: That’s kind of a bummer (0:34:48) Codey: I get that it happens sometimes, though. (0:34:49) Kev: Yeah, I get it too. I’m just saying like yeah, you know (0:34:52) Kev: I I’m interested in this game because it’s got the red wall thing that the dark angle (0:34:57) Kev: I mean, I’m intrigued but uh, but I probably will wait till I know when you know, I can keep a save or whatever (0:35:02) Codey: Yep, and so they also say that they’re going to add more stuff as they head to 1.0. (0:35:04) Kev: Yeah (0:35:10) Codey: This is actually a common theme of a lot of what we’re talking about today. (0:35:15) Codey: They are going to add more, and they have a little bit of a roadmap, but there are no (0:35:19) Codey: dates on that roadmap. (0:35:21) Codey: So just letting you know what’s coming up, but they don’t have any expected like, “Oh, (0:35:28) Codey: we’re expecting this to be done at this time and this to be done at this time,” which is (0:35:30) Kev: Yeah, yeah, that that’s fine (0:35:31) Codey: It’s probably realistic. (0:35:32) Codey: Uhm, just feels a little. (0:35:36) Kev: Okay, well hey you I’m I’m definitely have my eye on Grimshire though all things said maybe not right now, but oh, but yeah (0:35:45) Kev: Okay (0:35:46) Kev: Let’s see what else next up another early access (0:35:50) Kev: Hotel galactic (0:35:53) Kev: Early oh my gosh $35. That’s kind of a it’s premium. That’s some premium pricing (0:35:56) Codey: I know, right? (0:36:00) Codey: Well, and there was drama associated with it. (0:36:00) Kev: Oh (0:36:05) Kev: Yeah, yeah (0:36:06) Codey: So they released the early access on July 24. (0:36:12) Codey: And in that initial post, they said (0:36:14) Codey: that in the weeks following the release, (0:36:17) Codey: they wanted feedback. (0:36:20) Codey: Again, they had a projected roadmap, (0:36:23) Codey: but I didn’t have dates on it. (0:36:24) Codey: Literally two days later. (0:36:26) Codey: They posed another thing on Steam that’s basically like oops. (0:36:30) Codey: We’re sorry for the state of the game. (0:36:33) Codey: Um, and they say, quote, our rundown hotel has not yet been restored to its future. (0:36:38) Codey: Glory. (0:36:38) Codey: We are fully aware of that. (0:36:40) Codey: And we sincerely apologize that our early access build did not (0:36:44) Codey: meet all of your expectations. (0:36:46) Codey: We made a mistake and we take full responsibility. (0:36:49) Codey: Um, as part of like this, that’s end quote, as part of this, uh, mistake, (0:36:54) Codey: quote unquote (0:36:56) Codey: They are adding compensation strategies so they’re going to find a way to compensate people who have already paid for this early access. (0:37:04) Codey: Kevin, how do you feel about that? (0:37:06) Kev: Oh, okay. Um, all right. First off, I’m gonna take one step back here. First of all, what is the game cuz let’s write that that’s gonna I think that illustrates expectations. It’s a clearly studio Ghibli specifically spirited away inspired game of how should I put this spirit favor esque of the, you know, the side view with the the rooms that you hop around that you’re building up a hotel that then and so yeah, you’re kind of (0:37:10) Codey: - Mm-hmm, right, so… (0:37:36) Kev: expanding the hotel, maintaining guests, etc, etc. We’ve talked about it before I just I just can’t remember anyway, so that’s the game. And so now, okay, before any drama $35 feels like a decent chunk of change for this game, considering spirit fair is noticeably not $35. Um, so you know, the expected prices set expectations, right? That’s like the number one thing in in gaming, (0:38:06) Kev: marketing, whatever. (0:38:09) Kev: So, you know, dropping $35 on the city, it better be good. Now, early when I play an early access, or, you know, I hear about it, I expect things to be buggy, right? That’s kind of a big part of the point, right? betas and play testing all that good stuff. So how bad was this? I can’t even imagine how bad this was to demand or (0:38:36) Kev: to elicit an apology. (0:38:38) Codey: Yeah, I think that that’s like my biggest issue and why I like pulled this question out because (0:38:44) Codey: if I am playing something that’s in early access I’m (0:38:47) Codey: expecting bugs like even if it’s game-breaking bugs like even if it is (0:38:51) Codey: something like they put this out two days later if there was if there were (0:38:57) Codey: bugs that made the game unplayable and it was then like two weeks later and they (0:39:02) Codey: hadn’t responded yeah compensate them like unless you had a friggin family (0:39:08) Codey: and you didn’t have any way to be working on the game at that time but (0:39:11) Codey: literally two days after full release I think that’s par for the course for a (0:39:17) Codey: game that is as ambitious as this game so personally I’d be like like if I were (0:39:25) Codey: one of the people who kick-started it or whatever I’d be like no no don’t worry (0:39:28) Codey: about reimbursing me just like take your time keep doing what you’re doing like (0:39:32) Codey: here’s more feedback and give feedback because they literally won’t need (0:39:36) Kev: Sure, sure. Well, okay. I think there’s two things one. There’s a compensation. I don’t think then it’s gonna be necessarily monetarily (0:39:43) Kev: That could just be you know in game item status, whatever something a bonus of some kind (0:39:50) Kev: That’s what I expect (0:39:53) Kev: But (0:39:54) Kev: But yeah, I like I agree with you (0:39:58) Kev: Like I don’t know maybe it’s just this developer. Maybe they’re just very sensitive about the (0:40:04) Kev: the responses, it could be, I don’t know, or. (0:40:06) Kev: Maybe it was just that bad. (0:40:09) Kev: I don’t know where this lands. (0:40:10) Codey: Okay, so they have, they do have some of the things, they explain what some of the bugs (0:40:16) Codey: were that were coming up. And I mean, some of them are like, you know, game like breaking (0:40:23) Codey: down or requests being blocked, cooking recipes not working, in game time, freezing stuff (0:40:29) Codey: like that. But my favorite too, was that the workers are refusing to perform tasks. And (0:40:33) Kev: Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, like, I mean, all right, you know what, I think that the (0:40:37) Codey: You know what? (0:40:38) Codey: Good for them. (0:40:40) Codey: Let them unionize. (0:40:40) Codey: Like that is a bug that if that was happening, I would cackle. (0:40:46) Codey: I would be laughing so hard and I would message them and be like, (0:40:48) Codey: Hey, this is happening. (0:40:50) Codey: But like, I mean, what are you going to do? (0:40:58) Kev: The only problem is, I’m going to go back to the $35 price point for early. (0:41:01) Codey: - Okay, yeah. (0:41:03) Kev: If that was their full release price point, sure, whatever, for early access, I don’t know, $15, maybe? That’s kind of high still, but, that’s, I mean it’s tough, you need money to keep it going, but I don’t know. (0:41:19) Kev: Ooh, that’s rough though. (0:41:20) Codey: So the other the other bug that I loved was that guests were stuck in an endless sleep loop. (0:41:30) Kev: I like that. (0:41:30) Codey: And you know what, same. I feel like sometimes in my life I there’s just a bug happening and I’m just stuck endlessly sleeping. (0:41:40) Kev: That’s not that’s that’s a feature not a bug (0:41:40) Codey: So I get it. Sometimes it just be that way. (0:41:50) Codey: Yeah, so those are the two things that I thought were hilarious other I mean like I get if (0:41:56) Kev: Yum (0:41:56) Codey: there’s like other things happening but that much outrage to come out in the 48 hours post (0:41:58) Kev: Yum (0:42:03) Kev: Well, you know here here’s another thing is (0:42:07) Kev: What if what is what about the knot game break (0:42:10) Kev: breaking part like what if it’s, you know, has just not fun, you know, like, sure. (0:42:14) Codey: but that’s again something that is going to be improved upon I mean I played lens islands (0:42:19) Codey: first one and like it was I saw where they were going with it but it was definitely like pretty (0:42:24) Codey: basic and they have improved it so much and it seems so fun now like oh sorry not seems it is (0:42:30) Codey: so fun now. But yeah, I just (0:42:30) Kev: Yeah (0:42:35) Kev: Yeah, like I said, I think the only real issue the mistake was the $35 price point (0:42:42) Kev: That’s all that’s that’s something to go back to right because I how much did you pay for for the other ones? (0:42:48) Kev: It wasn’t $35 (0:42:50) Codey: - No, probably not, yeah. (0:42:51) Kev: Yeah, right (0:42:53) Codey: I don’t even remember it was so long ago. (0:42:55) Kev: Yeah, but but anyways (0:42:59) Kev: Well, I’ll give him this (0:43:01) Kev: They they came out and said something right that’s good (0:43:04) Kev: So all right, that’s hotel galactic. I’ll keep keep an eye out to see if they fix that hotel (0:43:14) Kev: Okay, um, all right here next up and (0:43:20) Kev: Purred the a few sentences into Al’s notes. It is early access is confirmed. Oh (0:43:27) Kev: Oh, oh wait, no, not out yet. (0:43:29) Kev: It will be a, sorry. (0:43:30) Codey: No, no, no, no. (0:43:31) Kev: Dates, they’re weird. (0:43:32) Kev: It is out, when people are listening to this, it will be out. (0:43:35) Kev: It is already out now when we’re recording, ‘cause, wait, no? (0:43:39) Kev: Oh my go- oh my go- I’m misreading that, you’re right! (0:43:40) Codey: Okay, so let me let me do this. (0:43:41) Kev: Oh my gosh. (0:43:42) Codey: So Al wrote early access releasing. (0:43:43) Kev: Oh my goodness. (0:43:46) Codey: Well, out now maybe and then there’s another bullet not actually out yet, but was meant to be out 7th of August, but they clicked the wrong button on release. (0:43:54) Kev: Oh my go- (0:43:58) Codey: So, it’s fine. (0:44:02) Codey: This is their quote. I love this for them. (0:44:04) Codey: I mean, it’s probably very stressful for them, but I think this is hilarious. (0:44:08) Codey: Quote, “We are heartbroken to say this, but we can’t release today. We literally cannot press the button. It’s gone.” (0:44:16) Codey: The game is ready to go. Everything was prepared, but since this is our first release ever, we forgot to tick the early access checkbox on the Steam backend until this morning. (0:44:26) Codey: and once that is ticked, Steam automatically put our Steam page into (0:44:30) Codey: review mode, which is a normal process on their end, but for us it couldn’t have come at a worse (0:44:35) Codey: time. This has caused the release button to disappear and we cannot click it. (0:44:41) Kev: Aaaah! Hah! (0:44:42) Codey: Oh dude, but that is like such like beer like I could see that being like bureaucracy stuff like (0:44:47) Codey: that’s not how are you supposed to know how are you supposed to know to click that check box or (0:44:53) Codey: what if they started the game before that checkbox was there and then it just like was like well they (0:44:57) Codey: didn’t click it I don’t know it (0:45:00) Kev: But (0:45:00) Codey: good for that like they’ll figure it out it’s it’s only been three days there (0:45:02) Kev: Yeah, that that’s good (0:45:06) Codey: is not an update yet let me just double-check that this is true but (0:45:11) Kev: I’ve (0:45:14) Kev: I’ve just got to say I love (0:45:18) Kev: Game big news stories that come from pushin

Derick Van Ness of Big Life Financial returns to the podcast to discuss with Kiera the new realities of the recently passed One Big Beautiful Bill — and how dentists can capitalize on the impacts. They discuss bonus depreciation, research and development credits, and more. Further, there's an opportunity for DAT listeners at biglifefinancial.com/DAT, where you can learn if you're overpaying on your taxes and what new opportunities exist. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today I'm excited to welcome back a popular guest. He and I have chatted multiple times. We've gone around and around on different topics of how to help dentists build more wealth. So Derick, ⁓ with Big Life Financial, we talked about our research and development credits. Today we're going to be talking about this big, beautiful tax bill, how it's going to impact dentists, how it's going to impact building wealth. I do think it also impacts team members. So Derick, welcome back to the show. How are you today?   Derick Van Ness (00:29) I'm great, Kiera. I really appreciate you bringing me on the show again. It's always fun to talk.   Kiera Dent (00:34) Of course, we all know that I love wealth strategies. love ⁓ it takes time like you and I were talking about pre show. ⁓ I think it's something to educate ourselves on and to be around really smart people and to constantly be looking at different things like I know hot in the real estate world right now and with buying businesses and buying practices, the big beautiful tax bill is actually great for the bonus depreciation coming in. So just like educating ourselves and that's what I wanted today to be.   not getting high into politics. These are bills that are into place ⁓ and how to take advantage of them, how to maximize them. Derick, you work with a ton of dentists. So Derick, for those who don't know, you kind of give a little bit background on how you and I even got connected, how you got into dentistry, ⁓ how does Big Life Financial play into this. We have a lot of mutual clients together. So just kind of give people a background on who you are and how you got to the dental space.   Derick Van Ness (01:26) Absolutely, you know, I started out back in like 2010 2009 2010 helping small business owners with taxes and financial strategy I was working for another firm at the time and I had been a house flipper and if for those of you who remember 2008 wasn't so good if you're a house flipper, right and When that whole thing fell apart kind of fell in my head I took a lot of the skills that I had and a friend of mine hired me to help   Kiera Dent (01:46) It is not.   Derick Van Ness (01:55) small business owners with taxes and financial and business strategy. ⁓ Working with them, I had a chance to work with about 1,500 business owners over seven years. And then eventually went out and started doing my own thing because there were some different things that I wanted to do that they didn't offer. ⁓ essentially, in that time, I worked with a lot of dentists and a lot of doctors. ⁓ And so I kind of stayed in that arena, which led me to ⁓ meeting you, Kiera.   through Mark over at DSI and all the stuff that I'd done with him and then found you guys and just love what you guys do with helping people to build their teams. Cause I'm such a huge advocate of how important that is to have the right team to run your practice, right? Especially if you're going to have multiple practices, it just can't be about you. And so it was just kind of a natural fit. And like you said, you, you definitely love financial strategies. So.   We got into it, we talked about a bunch of different things, had a chance to work together. Like you said, have shared a lot of clients along the way, but it just seems like dentists have a lot of the problems that we solve, which is they pay a of taxes, they make good money, and most of them didn't get an MBA in college to understand how business and finances work. They've had to learn along the way. And so we see ourselves as part of that process of helping dentists become.   better business owners, better entrepreneurs, and honestly create freedom in their life instead of just having a business that runs them, because it's easy to have that happen in dentistry. So that's sort of how we got connected. I don't know, over the last, since whatever 2008, 2009 was, last 15 plus years, I've probably worked with somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 business owners. I would say a good chunk of those have been dentists. So that's how we ended up together.   Kiera Dent (03:48) Yeah.   I love the journey. love hearing what you've done. I also agree on like building wealth. And I think going through dental school, working at the dental college, dentists are coming out with, you know, upwards of 500, 600, 700, $800,000 in debt somewhere up towards that upper million. Midwestern was a very expensive school. looking at that and then watching offices and I remember the first dentist that I worked with and we were partners. We, called her 2.5 because we were 2.5 million debt.   Derick Van Ness (04:03) Cheers.   Kiera Dent (04:18) was like, you better straighten that spine 2.5. Like we need that spine for a long time. But it was something where I realized like, that's a substantial amount of debt. One to walk out of school with two you buy a practice on top of that and then you want to try and like even remotely live your own personal life. It just felt like the odds are possibly stacked not in a dentist favor. I've had several dentists where this is the case where they're multimillion in debt, trying to get these practices off the ground. And so really coming up with   Derick Van Ness (04:43) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (04:47) like yes, long-term, if they make it, awesome. Hopefully it will pay off for them. But what are maybe some strategies and tips that they can do now? I think like so many of us look at real estate and wish that we would have gotten in at the 2008 because now you're selling them out or even in 2020. And so it's like, what can people do now, even if they didn't maximize or we didn't buy practices back in the day when they were so cheap, they were pennies on the dollar. What things can we do now to maximize? I was even talking to this girl the other day.   And she's like, yeah, my baby was born on New Year's Eve. And I was like, wow, talk about a great tax write-off. And she's like, I didn't even know that that was a tax write-off. I didn't even know the benefits of things. And so I feel like just so many little pieces that could make us smarter business owners to, I'm here, I love living in the United States. I love paying taxes for the country that we get to live in. I love the opportunity that we have to be business owners. With that said, I also think it's smart for us to be very wise stewards over our money to figure out different strategies.   And no, it's not sexy. No, it's not fun. A lot of it is just like save, like invest, do the things you're supposed to do. And it's going to be part of what is it? Like the eighth wonder of the world of compound interest. Like there are other pieces, but Derick, like, let's talk about this big, beautiful tax bill. How does this work? How does this impact business owners? What are some of the benefits we can take care of? Now we're talking in 2025, things will change and shift as the landscape shifts, but knowing that's in place, what are some of the things dentists owners can do now?   to maximize that coming out.   Derick Van Ness (06:18) Yeah, you bring up a good point, Kiera. You know, it's not that this stuff happens overnight, but it is, it's systemic, right? You're doing it day in and day out. And tax is one of those things, whether you like it or not, you have to file them every year. And I'm not going to lie to you, that's part of what I like about being in the tax world is people have to do it every year. It's a pretty good business model that way, right?   Kiera Dent (06:30) Right.   I   was gonna say you've got the reoccurring opportunities because it has to happen every year just like dentists have profis every six months. I mean it's a great built-in business. mean kudos to you. I don't enjoy it but it is a necessary evil to be done.   Derick Van Ness (06:52) I totally get that. If you would have told me you're going to work in taxes even 15 years ago when I first got into it, I would have said absolutely not not interested. But what I can tell you is every dollar you make in taxes is the same as a new dollar you make in your business. Right. But you don't have to have employees and risk and additional insurance and additional equipment and all this other stuff. So it really is pure profit when you can reduce your taxes. So   even a small amount of tax strategy can go a very long way in increasing what you get in the bottom line, right? And if you could just take a lot of dentists across the country, they're in the 40 % tax bracket, maybe a little higher or lower depending on your state, but somewhere in that range, if you could even lower that by 10%, that's keeping an additional 10 % of your income. That's a lot of extra money for people to be able to save and put to work without having to go do more risk and...   buy a bigger building and do a build out and deal with more personalities in the office because all of those things are variables, right? So I see it as a pure profit machine if you get it right. And so I've chosen to think it that way because I spend so much time in it, but it really does come down to just keeping a lot more of the money you make. And it's a very potent way to do it because honestly, with 10 to 15 hours a year, so think of that as like one hour a month.   you can really add a lot to the bottom line of what you get to keep. In some cases, we can cut taxes almost in half for high, high income earners. So it's a pretty big deal.   Kiera Dent (08:25) Well, and as you said that I think it's a big deal for today because yes to have that back to you is great. But like we talked about compounding, compounding until you've experienced compounding seems like not real. Just like I think when like you have bought your first house and it's like, how am I ever supposed to do this and make money on it until you bought your first practice? A lot of those things I think feel ⁓ arbitrary, they feel false. And then once you get into the compounding world and you're like, my gosh, like   we're making money without having to do anything. It's like, yeah, I could save on my taxes in a legal, ethical way, have more money at the end of the year that I could then put towards this, like you said, make it work for me. Well, now that it's just duplicating, it's multiplying, it's replicating, those things to me are things I get excited about. Those are things that I look for, because I don't think there's a lot of money.   I call it the money making machine. What things can we put into your money making machine to where it's working for you day in, day out without you having to do any extra work? I think all of us check yes, let's say yes to that. So Derick, let's talk about how we can create more of these money making machines, putting our money to work for us rather than constantly trying to chase the money dream to where at the end of our careers and even during our careers, we're living the lives that we wanted to get to when we first started out into these careers.   Derick Van Ness (09:29) Yep.   Yeah. And I can tell you guys this, if you only walk away with one thing, it's the idea if you want to build wealth, you need to create systematic savings, right? Systematize putting money aside, whether that's actually savings account or investing or however, but just getting money out of the spending cycle and into the building cycle. And it's like watching your child, right? Like in the beginning, kids grow and it's like day to day, you don't see it, but year to year,   it starts to make a bigger and bigger and bigger difference. And then, you know, when they're teenagers, you're just like, what's happening, right? So it's the same kind of thing with your money. In the beginning, if you're just watching a day to day, you don't really see the growth. You have to trust the process, right? But the biggest thing you can do is put that on autopilot, because if you have to automatically go into your bank account every month and move money over or every year, move money over, it's much harder. And like writing,   Kiera Dent (10:28) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (10:42) 25, 50, 100, $200,000 checks feels hard. Setting aside 2,000, 3,000, 5,000, $10,000 a month, and then you cut that in half per pay period, and all of a sudden it gets a lot easier. It's like, oh yeah, $1,000 a pay period, not that big a deal. Much easier than writing a $25,000 check, right? Or two or $3,000 per pay period. It really does add up. And that's where the tax piece comes in is, in many cases, it's like found money. I try to teach our clients to...   Kiera Dent (10:46) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (11:11) save like you're going to pay full blast on taxes. And then when we do the tax strategy, all this money is left over. And so it feels like extra money, and then you can put it to work, right? And that's where you do get to play with some bigger chunks. ⁓ But really, it's that habit of automating, setting money aside. If you can just only take one thing from this, it's that. And taxes can create a huge amount of that for you along the way. So let's talk about the tax bill, right?   Kiera Dent (11:24) Mm-hmm.   Yeah,   let's talk about it. And I just want to highlight on that, Derick, of I was talking to a CPA the other day on the podcast and he talked about how like there's a different psychology of business owners. ⁓ We go from getting a W-2 paycheck that we're used to being able to spend all of it because taxes have already been taken out to them becoming business owners and not having taxes automatically taken from that and needing to be super disciplined on saving. And so I agree with you. And when I realized like,   I got so annoyed when I'm like, great, so now I never get a refund check ever again in taxes. I was like, no, actually it's actually so much better now than it ever was. Because if I just set it aside, I'm like, taxes are pretty simple. I guess there's some nuances to them, but it's pretty much like whatever tax bracket you are, take your profit at the end of the month, set that aside. And lo and behold, if you do the tax planning strategy, like you said, usually I'm ending up with a pretty good substantial chunk at the end of the year that I count as my like quote unquote, like   the refund check or whatever. It's been so long since I've gotten one that I don't even know what it is. But it's awesome because then you have this huge lump of money because you've been saving it. You weren't expecting it. All your expenses in your life is taken care of to where now, like you said, it is really fun. Is that an investment? Is that buying something that I've always wanted to get? Is that real estate money? Because the amount of cash, if you are strategic in how you do it, is exponentially substantial.   It is truly life-changing. So I'm excited, Derick. Let's talk about the tax bill, but I will second you and ditto you and just say, yes, there's discipline to it, but that discipline equals so much freedom on the other side that just try it. Trust us on this. Save, learn to save on it and ⁓ be blown away at how much you're able to have at the end of the year if you do it really well.   Derick Van Ness (13:25) Yeah, I 100 % agree and I love your approach, Kiera. That's exactly what we try to teach with people. So let's talk about the tax bill, right? There's a ton of stuff that's in there that we're not going to touch on because like the child tax credit go up $200 a year. Yes. Is that going to move the needle for you as a business owner? Not really, right? Is there a little bit for senior tax relief in there where there's $6,000 of income that they don't pay taxes on? Yes. Does that really matter for you? Probably not, right? So we're going to...   Kiera Dent (13:33) Okay, let's talk.   Derick Van Ness (13:55) we're going to talk a little bit about a couple of key things that can really move the needle. One of them you alluded to, Kiera, that I think is really important is the idea of bonus depreciation, right? People who don't know what bonus depreciation is, it's when you buy certain types of equipment or real estate, you can take all the depreciation in the first year, right? And that can be ⁓ a huge chunk, especially when you combine it with something like cost segregation. For those of you who don't know what cost segregation is, the two really   Kiera Dent (14:04) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (14:24) work well together. So I think it's worth taking just a sec, even though it's not new, it really enhances this strategy. ⁓ Cost segregation is when you have a piece of real estate, you bring in an engineer, and there are companies that do this, right? So you don't have to know all this stuff. ⁓ But they come in, they reclassify as much of your building as they can as equipment. And so what you get to do is depreciate a portion of the building, the stuff that's equipment much more rapidly. So a lot of times five, seven or 15 years.   versus either 27 or 39 and a half years. So you get a lot more depreciation on the front end. It's not like you get more overall, but money today is worth a whole lot more than money 20 or 30 years from now. You can invest it and use it to grow your business, et cetera. But then when you add bonus depreciation to that, you can get a lot more of it in the first year. what this really means is if you're   Kiera Dent (15:06) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (15:21) buying the right kind of equipment or you're buying a building or you're doing big improvements, you can get a lot more depreciation and that depreciation can save you in taxes, right? And this is one that I feel like most CPAs kind of get bonus depreciation, but a lot of them don't bring in the cost segregation piece. So if you own a piece of real estate, especially if you bought it in the last few years and you haven't done a cost segregation study, this is something that you would have to know about because someone has to physically come to your building. If you haven't done one,   Kiera Dent (15:39) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (15:51) should talk to your CPA about it or talk to someone about it. I'm sure Kiera knows people, we know people, there are plenty of people out there who do it. But that's something worth looking at, especially if your building's worth, I would say, $250,000, $300,000, and you've had it less than five years and you haven't done this, yeah, it's totally worth looking at. It could be a real nice windfall. So that's a big one. It had been in place, then it started phasing out from 100 % to 80 % to 60%.   Kiera Dent (16:04) I   Derick Van Ness (16:20) but now we're back at 100%. So this is a big one, especially if you own your building or you're buying a lot of equipment. ⁓ Another really big one is the SALT tax. Now, people hear SALT tax and they're like, what? They're thinking of like the SPICE, right? SALT stands for state and local tax. And really to simplify this, and there's kind of a workaround in almost every state where you can do it as a pass-through setup. And essentially what that means is,   Kiera Dent (16:27) Mm-hmm.   Bye.   Derick Van Ness (16:49) If you pay all your state taxes before the end of the year, those state taxes become a write off for your federal taxes. Now this was in place up to $10,000. So if you were in a 40 % tax bracket, it could have saved you $4,000. Now it's up to 40,000, four zero, $40,000. So if you're making a lot of money or you're in a high tax state, you can pay those state taxes before the end of the year and it creates a federal tax write off.   And so like if you were in a, you know, paying in a 32 % tax bracket and you paid $40,000, it's going to save you, you know, between 12 and $13,000 in taxes that year, which is pretty significant for found money. All it has to be done is you have to pay those taxes and then your, your CPA or your tax pro has to claim that. Right. So that's another big one that got raised and you probably heard a lot about it in the news because   People were trying to get it raised higher and some people thought it should be lower. It really does favor business owners. It's not something a person who doesn't have a business can do. And that was part of the controversy, right? ⁓ But at the end of the day, it's law. So you should be taking full advantage of that.   Kiera Dent (18:03) I feel like that definitely impacts like the high state tax ⁓ states like California, New York, like some of those bigger ones, definitely because I live in Nevada, it's a no state income tax state. So if I understand correctly, Derick, and this is where I love bringing smart people on, the salt tax doesn't apply to me per se in Nevada, because we don't have state income tax. Is that correct? But in those higher ones, it definitely helps you out tremendously by being able to take those those credits and apply them.   Derick Van Ness (18:32) That is correct, yeah. And like another really high one is Oregon. They have quite high state tax, whereas Washington has none. So yeah, that doesn't apply to everybody. But if you're in a state that has even medium, like I'm in Utah, income tax there is right around 5 % for the state. It's still significant, right? You can still do up to the same amount. You'll just get there slower than if you're in California.   Kiera Dent (18:36) Mm-hmm.   I agree.   Right.   Derick Van Ness (19:00) Once again, just one of those things like you talked about, know, having kids or, you know, having the ADA like disability access to your building or a lot of these other things that like there are a bunch of little things, but they really do add up doing the Augusta rule. I'm sure you guys have talked about a million times and paying your kids properly. And we have a whole strategy of actually how to help people use tax strategy to pay for their kids college, which is a pretty cool one using some of that.   Kiera Dent (19:15) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (19:29) But those aren't part of the tax bill, so we won't dig into that today. ⁓   Kiera Dent (19:32) But they   are smart things to know because as you're listing it off, I think when someone's making, let's say your practice is doing a million, let's it's doing 2 million, 5 million, let's say you're at a 50 % overhead, let's just do 5 million, that's 2.5 mil. Not all of that's going to come to you as profit, but let's use like, it also could be coming to you as profit, even if it's in the form of distributions and different pieces. I'm like,   Derick Van Ness (19:42) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (19:55) on that 2.5, if that's your taxable income, now let's just do, let's say you're in the highest, like that would put you in the highest tax bracket. So we're at a 37%. Like that's almost a million dollars worth of tax money right there on 2.5. So I understand that say 12 grand doesn't seem like that much, but I'm like, but 12 grand is still going to chip down this tax bill. And then you do another 20 grand here, then you do another 15 grand here.   All of that does exponentially chip down and like the bonus appreciation. That's why I think Derick, you're talking like the $200 on a million of taxes, not really going to move the needle, but 12 grand, 15 grand. It's the stacking and being able to keep that money. You have to pay this tax no matter what. And why not like benefit and minimize and reduce it and keep that money. then even worst case scenario, you even go invest it or you put it somewhere like a high yield savings account, but still making 4 % for you.   that you wouldn't have been making so that money's working for you. I think it's a no brainer ⁓ no matter what tax bracket you're in just to see. But like I also think this is where I don't like to get lazy on my taxes like, is it really worth doing the Augustus roll? Yes, it is. Because like you said, every dollar saved today, if I could even take that 600 or that 2000 or that 12 grand, put it in right now, like go back to college. How many of us wish we would have invested at that point in time? 20 bucks when we were in college.   Derick Van Ness (21:02) You   Kiera Dent (21:19) into the stock market and what that would be worth today, I think that there's just value in being strategic and smart and this is how you build wealth. It's not sexy, but if you do it consistently, you will exponentially become wealthier much faster than otherwise. I think it's the fastest way to get to wealth long term because you've got a runway in front of you.   Derick Van Ness (21:38) Well, I'm going to throw something out here, Kiera, because I get to see behind the scenes, right? I work with a lot of successful dentists and dentists have a really good income. Dentists generally are not great at creating wealth. I'll just be totally honest with you. A lot of them, they make enough money that they, ⁓ they can spend and they have a good life and they're able to put some money away, but proportional to their income, a lot of them are not great savers because of exactly what you talked about. A lot of them make all this money, but they got to pay off a lot of debt.   Kiera Dent (21:42) Mm-hmm.   I would agree.   Derick Van Ness (22:08) right, student loans and a business loan. Well, that's a lot of cash flow, especially in the first five years going out of lot of people's pockets. So a lot of times I'll see a dentist and they're making, let's say they're taking home $500,000, which is very common. ⁓ But you look at their investments and everything and they've got 300 grand saved. And they've been at it for 10 years and you're like, what happened? it's they paid off student loans, they paid off business debt.   Kiera Dent (22:27) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (22:33) They've had to invest in equipment along the way. They've had to remodel their office. They bought a house. You know, and they have some nice things. But now when you start going back and saying, hey, we can do this, this, and this, and now you get to save an extra, let's go really, really low, an extra $20,000 a year. Okay. I did some math the other day for our newsletter, $20,000 a year. If that's what someone saved and they just put that money to work at 7%. Over 30 years, they'd have $2.1 million roughly.   Right? So it's like, it's not, it doesn't appear to be a huge thing, but over time it really does add up. And to be quite honest, someone who makes $500,000, I can think of a bunch of ways that are outside of the new tax bill, things we've been doing for years that can really save them a whole lot more than that. And so for a lot of people, like if somebody is making two and a half million dollars, there's actually some advanced strategies that can really move the needle in a big, big way. But these small things like paying your state tax by the end of the year,   It takes you five minutes and you saved 13 grand. Okay, that's a big deal. Doing, making sure you're paying yourself properly so that you don't end up paying self-employment tax unnecessarily on more of your income than you. Okay, that's another seven, 10, 15, 20 grand. ⁓ Paying your kids, Augusta rule, bonus depreciation. Okay, now all of sudden we took a bill that was maybe 120,000 of taxes for someone who makes 500 grand and now they're paying 50.   Kiera Dent (23:34) Hmm.   Derick Van Ness (24:00) So they kept 70,000. Like that's a big deal. You put that together and using the math I just did there, that's about $5 million over 30 years, right? So it's significant and I bring up the two and a half million thing, because I don't see a lot of dentists. I have a few clients that make that kind of money, but most of the dentists, especially people who own one or two practices, they're making between on the lower end, maybe 300, 350, on the higher end, maybe 800, 900,000.   Kiera Dent (24:00) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   I agree.   Derick Van Ness (24:29) You know, so suddenly an extra 50, 70, 80, $100,000 a year is a lot of money. It makes a really big difference.   Kiera Dent (24:37) I agree.   I even think though, on no matter where your bracket is, I think like, well, one, I just hope I don't know, Derick, I need to surround myself with people like this. I hope that no matter what income I make, I don't ever like pish posh 70 grand. Like I just hope I hope I never I mean, I hope that I'm a freaking billionaire at one point in my life, like that'd be incredible. And like the amount of good that we'll be able to do in this world, like even today. But I'm like, I hope that I stay   humble and grateful enough that I would never say like 20 grand or 50 grand is not worth my time to do ⁓ in a small effort. ⁓ And so I think that that's just a zone of like, let's remember the humility as well of like, yes, these things are tax savings, but they're also going to exponentially grow you, you, your practice, your family, like your contribution, your good that you're able to do in this world. So even if you're not using it for yourself, think of the good that you can give back to this community in this world. So I think   And then I'm also like, yeah, and if you're at 300, 70 grand is a lot. If you're at 900, 70 grand should still be a lot. If you're at 2.5 million, 70 grand should still be a lot for you to where I think like, I also feel it's a skill of staying sharp rather than getting lazy and sloppy as we evolve. I know I've done it. Like I used to be way more scrappy when I first started the company and I'm like, yeah, well, do we really have to do all this? And it's like, but I think this...   sharper we can keep ourselves and the more disciplined we can to be expert saviors. Like I talked to Ryan Isaac of Dentist Advisors often and he and I talk about like the biggest thing is like being a great saver, like building your wealth, but then also not losing your wealth by doing dumb things or not being disciplined and watching what you've built. Like it's kind of two sides of the coin and being able to get there at the end of the day, I think is what we're all striving for. So I think it's brilliant and I hope that nobody says pish posh to us.   Derick Van Ness (26:12) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (26:34) 70 grand if we could save you that much in taxes.   Derick Van Ness (26:37) I sure hope not, right? And if you do, it's because you've got a better use of your time than that. But quite frankly, most of this stuff, especially taxes, the cool thing is we've had a few tax rewrites in the last, you know, 10 years or so. But typically we don't have a lot of tax rewrites. So once you know the rules, it doesn't change that much year to year. A few little things change here or there, but for the most part, if you can take the time.   get yourself the right team or learn the rules yourself. mean, I think even people who know how to do this themselves, having a good tax pro on your team can be worth a lot because things do come up. ⁓ But honestly, most of it, once you know it, doesn't take a lot of time, right? We're talking a couple hours a year. And if you know what you're doing, a lot of this you kind of do along the way or it's already set up, like setting the money aside for taxes that's already set up, paying before the end of the year. That's just the thing you do one time, you write one check or make one payment online and   Kiera Dent (27:17) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (27:32) and you're done, right? And a lot of these things are easy. ⁓ Another one that's a really big one that came up with the tax bill that I'm very excited about is they brought back the research and development credits. And this is another thing that for a dentist, it'll probably take you two hours of time ⁓ to do it, like an hour to work with someone to do the projects, which is basically an interview of what have you done, what's the research so that the tax team can look at that.   Kiera Dent (27:43) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (28:00) And then just getting your tax returns over because not only do these credits come back, but you can retroactively, we've got one year to do this retroactively. You can go back and claim the credits for 2022, 2023 and 2024. And so that gives us three years where you can amend and go back and get that money. And I mean, for a typical dentist, I see on the low end, there are a lot of them. If you're investing in equipment, trying new stuff, which   Kiera Dent (28:15) Wow.   Derick Van Ness (28:29) most dentists to compete have to be doing today. If you're doing, you know, still doing mercury fillings from the seventies, then maybe that's not you. But most people who are listening to your podcast are...   Kiera Dent (28:32) Mm-hmm.   I was going to say you, most of the podcast   community should be in that realm.   Derick Van Ness (28:44) Yeah, I'm kind of joking, but typically, I mean, it's between $10,000 and $20,000 a year. if you have a big practice, I mean, we've had clients that have gotten multiple six figures back because they did some major overhauls and a bunch of stuff. But let's call it $15,000 to $20,000 a year for a lot of dentists. It takes 45 minutes to do it, the interview, and then a little bit of time to review that, make sure it's good.   So let's call it two, maybe three hours of total time to get that money back, right? And you can do this every year when we amend. You have to amend them and they go back to the IRS. And the IRS is taking about a year to get checks out. They're a little buried ever since COVID. They got behind and they just never caught back up. But once you get on top of that for 2025 and beyond, like you can just do it proactively. You just don't pay the taxes. You don't have to wait for a refund.   And so it's another one of those things where you spend an hour or two a year and you get 10, 15, 20, $30,000 a year that you just get to keep. Right. And so this one to me is a huge one for dentistry because the rate at which the industry is changing, right. Uh, went from, from cone beams to milling people, milling their own crowns. Now it's 3d printing pretty soon. It's going to be, you know, a lot of these things you see at the shows with the robots doing things and all kinds of different things that   Kiera Dent (29:50) Awesome.   Totally.   Derick Van Ness (30:12) Dentistry is a very progressive industry, right? A lot of AI coming in with answering phones and scheduling people and answering questions and all of that kind of stuff. You may as well get credits for it. You're doing the work, you're buying the equipment, you're figuring this stuff out. So if you're doing anything where you're upgrading, trying new technology, looking to get better, faster, more efficient, you're probably accruing the credits. ⁓ And it's just something you don't want to miss out on. R &D credits are... ⁓   not as well known as they could be because it's very much a specialty thing and it's relatively new to the tax code. It only became permanent in 2015. It's been around since the 80s but it changed a bunch and became permanent then. And the reason we didn't do it through 2022 through 2024 was there was a change in the 2017 tax code and you know they gave tax breaks.   Kiera Dent (30:43) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (31:07) to corporations, they had to make it up somewhere. And this was the place where they said, if people claim R &D, they also don't get to write off all the expenses without going into all the detail. It just wasn't worth doing. Now we can go back and recover that. Congress didn't think it was even going to become a law. I think they thought they were going to amend it. And then COVID happened. And they sort of forgot about it. So it became a law in 22. Anyway, this is all fixing it. So to me, this is a huge one. It's an easy win for a lot of a.   Kiera Dent (31:18) Yeah.   Derick Van Ness (31:36) a lot of dentists to be able to go out and just get a bunch of money back in taxes you've already paid for stuff you've already done. And it's pretty minimal effort. ⁓ There are lot of different people out there who do it. We do a free estimate for people so they can kind of see what's on the table. But yeah, it's pretty straightforward. To me, that's probably the one specific to dentistry that's going to apply to almost everybody listening almost every year. And so   I kind of saved it toward the end here because I think it's the big win. know, the others, the bonus depreciation can be bigger, but you're probably not buying a business or massive amounts of equipment every year. But if you are, then that's going to be a huge one too.   Kiera Dent (32:20) Yeah. No, Derick, I love that. And I did some math because you talked about like one hour approximately per month to do these things. And I just I did some really, really conservative numbers. So I was like, if we were doing 20 grand of how much we get for tax savings of like actual dollars to you. And that was in 15 hours a year. That's 1333. So about 1400 per hour. And so thinking about a dentist who's producing 1400 per hour.   That's actually, that's a pretty high production. You're producing about $11,000 a day as a dentist at that rate. Then I was thinking like, okay, the R &D is 10 grand, 20 grand in two hours. That's now producing $10,000 an hour. I was like, that dentist would be producing $80,000 a day. Just to put in comparison of your dollar per hour on production, you apply that to your tax savings. I think that it's to me,   Not all dentists are even producing $1,300 an hour. Even very, very skilled dentists, like 500 to 1,000 is actually pretty great. That's what we try to target for doctors to do. 8,000 a day is a pretty good amount. So when I just did the quick math and I'm like, a lot of dentists are not working five days a week. A lot of you are working four days a week. So if you just added this as part of your CEO time, one hour per month to dedicate to this.   What's the ROI of that time? think it's very well worthwhile. And I will agree with you, Derick. We've had you on the podcast before. That's why I had you come back on, because I am seeing multiple clients get these R &D credits coming through that I just think it's a worthwhile thing. Again, I feel like it's Geico. That's what I feel like right now. Like one hour or like one quick call could save you 10 to 20 grand. I think that that to me, again, let's be sharp. Let's be savvy. Let's make sure we take advantage of these opportunities because again,   Derick Van Ness (34:00) you   Kiera Dent (34:13) Like you've said, the compound of that 10 or $20,000 that you get over the course of the next 20 to 30 years while you're doing dentistry, even if it's five years, even if it's 10 years, ⁓ that to me is so worth your time. I feel like that's the best use of your time you can possibly do as a CEO, as a business owner. So Derick, that's why I want to do back on because I think everybody should connect with you. Everybody should talk to their CPAs about this.   I know you guys do the R &D credits. I also know that you guys do accounting. So if people are looking to connect with you, Derick, like what's the easiest way? Like I'm fired up listening to this podcast. I'm committed to my one hour a month. It's like one and a half guys. So you're gonna have to be a little bit more, but I'm committed to that. Where do I start? How do I get going to make sure that I can maximize this big, beautiful tax bill and also the R &D credits for my practice.   Derick Van Ness (35:03) It's a great question. So we actually set up a page just for Dental A Team listeners, right? So it's just, my company's called Big Life Financial. And we do that, it's not big money financial. Our goal is to help you get money out of the way so you can live the life you're here to live as a human, right? And really spend the family time and make the contributions and express yourself as you want to. But it's BigLifeFinancial.com/DAT. So if you go there, it's a research and development credits   opt in right for the page because I think that's the biggest win. But we will also do, if you would like, a full three year tax review for people. Anybody who wants to see, have I been overpaying? There's a million things we didn't touch on today because they're not part of the new tax bill. There are things that have been around for a long time. ⁓ But we can help you to get a good idea of have you been overpaying and what are the opportunities out there? ⁓ And so that's a great way to start. And then from there, if it seems like you want to   Kiera Dent (35:46) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (36:03) find out more, you have questions or things come up, but that's a good starting point, right? It's like a diagnostic that gives us a good place to start from. So BigLifeFinancial.com/DAT will set up a free call. It should only take maybe 15, 20 minutes at first just to answer any question. That's great.   Kiera Dent (36:19) 15 or more could save you.   It really fills up, it's true. It's true. Daria, I do have a question though, because people get creeped out by taxes. How often do doing this and looking back at past taxes alert audits within the IRS? Because people creep out about this.   Derick Van Ness (36:37) So doing it,   so the R &D credits, especially this because they literally passed a law and said, yes, you can go back and do it. So there's going to be a ton of people doing it. So I don't think it's going to be any type of audit unless you really weren't doing research, right? But that's what the interview is for, is to help us to identify it. And our team will essentially tell you what does and doesn't qualify. But there's no risk to it, especially because they're saying, hey, yeah, you can go back and do this. You could.   I mean, you could have claimed it before, but nobody did. So it's not going to stand out. also, even in the past, when we've done this for people prior to that law change, I think out of 16,000 filings, there's been like maybe 12 or 15 audits. It's lower. It's even lower than a typical audit range. And I don't know how that's even really possible, but it's just been very low. It's not something the IRS is really worried about. It's not huge amounts of money.   Kiera Dent (37:10) Mm-hmm.   Derick Van Ness (37:35) You know, some of these other strategies care that you're aware of. people are getting 50, 100,000, $200,000 tax breaks and those are much more highly scrutinized. You really doing this work, which dentists do, uh, and based on your industry, I don't think they're really going to bat an eye. It doesn't mean there's a zero chance, but it's very, very low. Just like if you had a piece of equipment, forgot to depreciate it. Now you went back and amended to do that. It's that straightforward. It's a permanent part of the tax code. It's not gray area stuff.   Kiera Dent (37:42) Right.   which is super helpful. And that's just where I wanted to clarify because I know people get kind of weird of like, yeah, I want to save on my taxes, but I'd rather not get audited. And so I think this is a world where you can be both. You can save on taxes legally, just like the Augustus rule. Like that is something very common. People do it if you don't know about it, talk to your CP about it, ⁓ your kids having real jobs. So I feel like it's something where, like you said, it's not talked about as much, but that does not mean that it is not as commonplace or that you shouldn't bonus appreciation on real estate, on big equipment.   Derick Van Ness (38:10) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (38:36) These are things that I also feel this is the time like a political landscape for you as a business owner to take advantage of tax benefits. The person who's in the White House currently, whatever you choose to believe or not believe is very pro businesses in a lot of ways. And so I'm like, if you're ever going to try it based on who's in office, ⁓ I think now is a great time ⁓ with how many things are coming forward for businesses and being more business. ⁓ I would just say   business friendly, I think is where the political landscape is currently. Again, not to go down a political path, just to be looking at like, if I'm hedging my bets, now is probably a really good time where odds of audits are probably a little bit lower than maybe at other times of the political landscape. So just things to think about. Derick, I love these podcasts. I love building wealth. So guys go to BigLifeFinancial.com/DAT, so Dental A Team. So it's just DAT our initials.   Derick Van Ness (39:15) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (39:32) And Derick will take great care of you. Derick, any last thoughts as we wrap up today? I appreciate you so much being on here.   Derick Van Ness (39:38) No, just think, you know, dentists work really, really hard and I feel like a lot of them don't get the fruits of their labor because there's a lot of these little things that they haven't been taught. And I think all the little things do add up. So, you know, this is one of those things that if you choose to just take it on, figure it out in a year or two, you'll be way ahead of the game and you get to benefit from that basically forever. Right? lot of this stuff, once you figure it out one time, you can just ride.   80%, 90 % on autopilot. So if you've been afraid of it, would say it's climb over that hill, whether it's with us or someone else, it is really worth it. You guys work too hard, take too many risks, deal with too much headache to not get the full amount of the money that you really deserve to keep. So yeah.   Kiera Dent (40:23) I agree.   That's why Derick gets to be on the podcast because we're very aligned. I've always said I want dentists to be insanely wealthy, insanely. I see what you go through in school. mean, 2.5 million debt ⁓ to even get the opportunity to practice. ⁓ That's really where I was on a very strong mission to help dentists just like Derick to be as successful as you want to be. And there's little strategies like what we talked about that are big strategies. So take advantage, get over the hump.   Chat with Derick or your financial advisor or your CPA. But these things, I think, need to be part of your every single year conversations. They need to be talked about multiple times. You need to be asking what's been changing in the tax bill, keeping yourself a part of it. Very simple moves, big gains this year. Derick, as always, thanks for being a part of it. I really appreciate you. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening, and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.

In this episode I'm joined by historian Alexandra Birch to talk about the role of music and sound in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. We discuss her recent book Hitler's Twilight of the God's: Music and the Orchestration of War and Genocide in Europe, how music and sound contributed to genocide and Nazi identity formation, how the Nazis used music to embed their mythology and ideology into everyday people's lives, the types of music and composers that the Nazi command structure favored or regulated, the psychology of genocide from the victim and perpetrator perspective and how music may have figured into that, some misconceptions and common misunderstandings about music during the Holocaust, the soundscape of horror inside a concentration camp, some of Alexandra's thoughts on holocaust denialism and the role of museums in preserving history, and much more.  Dr. Alexandra Birch is a professional violinist and historian who works comparatively on the Nazi Holocaust and Soviet mass atrocity, including the Gulag through the lens of music and sound. She holds a PhD in History from the University of California Santa Barbara, and a BM, MM, and DMA from Arizona State University in violin performance. Previously, she was a fellow at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, the Wilson Center, and the Vienna Wiesenthal Institute, where she released CDs of recovered music and finished her first book Hitler's Twilight of the Gods: Music and the Orchestration of War and Genocide in Europe. Her current project “Sonic Shatterzones, The Intertwined Spaces, Sound and Music of Nazi and Soviet Atrocity,” investigates eight case studies of the Holocaust in the USSR and Gulag, including indigenous interactions with Solovki, new recordings of Weinberg's compositions from his time in Tashkent, sound recordings of the Gulag in Kazakhstan and of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and post-Soviet world premiere compositions, creating a humanizing look at incomprehensible violence. -Consider Supporting the Podcast!- Leave a rating or review on apple podcasts or spotify! Support the podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/reflectinghistory Check out my podcast series on Aftersun, Piranesi, Arcane, The Dark Knight Trilogy, and Nazi Germany and the Battle for the Human Heart here: https://www.reflectinghistory.com/bonuscontent Try my podcast series "Nazi Germany and the Battle for the Human Heart"-- What led to the rise of Nazi Germany? The answer may surprise you…Why do 'good' people support evil leaders? What allure does fascism hold that enables it to garner popular support? To what extent are ordinary people responsible for the development of authoritarian evil? This 13 part podcast series explores these massive questions and more through the lens of Nazi Germany and the ordinary people who collaborated or resisted as the Third Reich expanded. You'll not only learn about the horrifying, surprising, and powerful ways in which the Nazis seized and maintained power, but also fundamental lessons about what fascism is-how to spot it and why it spreads. Through exploring the past, I hope to unlock lessons that everyone can apply to the present day. Check it out on my Patreon page at: https://www.patreon.com/reflectinghistory. Try my podcast series "Piranesi: Exploring the Infinite Halls of a Literary Masterpiece"-- This podcast series is a deep analysis of Susanna Clark's literary masterpiece "Piranesi." Whether you are someone who is reading the novel for academic purposes, or you simply want to enjoy an incredible story for it's own sake, this podcast series goes chapter by chapter into the plot, characters, and themes of the book...“The Beauty of the House is immeasurable; it's kindness infinite.” Piranesi lives in an infinite house, with no long-term memory and only a loose sense of identity. As the secrets of the House deepen and the mystery of his life becomes more sinister, Piranesi must discover who he is and how this brings him closer to the “Great and Secret Knowledge” that the House contains. Touching on themes of memory, identity, mental health, knowledge, reason, experience, meaning, reflection, ideals, and more…Piranesi will be remembered as one of the great books of the 21st century. Hope you enjoy the series as much as I enjoyed making it. Check it out at https://www.patreon.com/reflectinghistory. Subscribe to my newsletter! A free email newsletter offering historical perspective on modern day issues, behind the scenes content on my latest podcast episodes, and historical lessons/takeaways from the world of history, psychology, and philosophy: https://www.reflectinghistory.com/newsletter.

Meet Tricia Copeland. She is an award-winning author of books for youth and young adults. Mostly she writes fantasy books, but as we learn during this episode, she also does write some romance books.   Tricia says that as a child she hated writing. Even so, she went to school and eventually she went to college where she received a degree in Microbiology. She also attained a Master's degree. She then went to work for a chemical company. After four years she found herself beginning a journey of technical writing and writing patterns and supporting materials.   After a few years Tricia became a stay-at-home-mom for a time. She tells us how she loved to tell stories and entertain her children.   We learn how she wrote her first fiction book series in 2015-16 about her time facing anorexia. In real life, she faced this and overcame it. She then began writing fantasy youth books and realized not only that she could write, but that she did not hate writing at all. She has written several series and has plans for more.     About the Guest:   Tricia Copeland is the critically acclaimed and award-winning author of Kingdom of Embers, To be Fae Queen, Lovelock Ones, and Azreya, Aztec Priestess, and dozens of other titles. She is the host of the Finding the Magic Book Podcast who weaves magical stories about love, courage, and finding your passion.   Tricia began her author journey with a women's fiction series, the Being Me series, which is an adaptation of her experience with anorexia. Afterwards she quickly pivoted to her favorite genre, fantasy. Her young adult fantasy series highlight themes including resilience, perseverance, faith, loyalty, trust, friendship, family, and love. They include the Kingdom Journals and Realm Chronicles series that find witches, vampires, and fae fighting an evil spirit determined to end them all. She tempers the high stakes drama in these books with her fun rom coms in the Perfect romance series.   Tricia Copeland believes in finding magic. She thinks magic infuses every aspect of our lives, whether it is the magic of falling in love, discovering a new passion, seeing a beautiful sunset, or reading a book that transports us to another world. An avid runner and Georgia native, Tricia now lives with her family and four-legged friends in Colorado. Find all her titles including contemporary romance, now penned under Maria Jane, young adult fantasy, and dystopian fiction at www.triciacopeland.com.   Ways to connect with Tricia:   https://triciacopeland.com https://www.facebook.com/TriciaCopelandAuthor/ https://www.instagram.com/authortriciacopeland/ https://twitter.com/tcbrzostowicz https://www.tiktok.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.youtube.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.amazon.com/stores/Tricia-Copeland/author/B00YHN5Q4G https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/14055439.Tricia_Copeland https://www.bookbub.com/authors/tricia-copeland     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hello everyone. We're really glad to have you here, wherever you may happen to be listening in from. We're really glad that you're listening to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Michael hingson, and our guest today is Tricia Copeland. Tricia is a prolific author. I use that word absolutely without any any concern, a prolific author of children's books, especially in the fantasy world. So she has been doing this a while and and also has an interesting story just of her life to tell. So we're going to go into all of that and delve in and see where we go. So Tricia, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Tricia Copeland ** 02:05 Thank you, Michael, I appreciate you having me, and I do want to make a little edit to that intro. Okay, go ahead. My books are young adult to New Adult books, so ages 13 plus mostly, all right,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so young adult to new adult. All right, that's fair. So how do you feel that your books fall into the range of things like the Harry Potter series and so on, sort of the same age groups,   Tricia Copeland ** 02:40 right? Genre adjacent, I have a series, The Kingdom Journal series, which includes three witches that have to break a curse on the witch lines. So the witches have to find each other as well as figure out how to break the curse using various forms of magic. So not really the same as Harry Potter, but definitely with with the witches, and the kind of contemporary world that Harry Potter is. But actually, I won't say that, because I haven't I think Harry Potter is mostly in the contemporary world, right? I didn't read all the books. I have to admit that he's   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 somewhat in the contemporary world, but, but I was thinking more of from a standpoint of the same type of age group.   Tricia Copeland ** 03:25 Yes, I think a younger reader. I think people started reading Harry Potter maybe around 10 or 11. And these books have older teenagers to start, age 1718, so 13 Plus is a good indicator. I think the other   Michael Hingson ** 03:42 thing I would observe about Harry Potter is that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily teenagers or young adults, including me, who have read them and enjoyed them. I think that that Harry Potter certainly brought an interesting dimension to reading for teenagers especially, and hopefully young adults, because a lot of people did catch on to them, and they they had a great theme, and you do some of the same sorts of things by virtue of the fact of what you're writing and who you're writing it for,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:17 right? They definitely caught adult eyes and hearts and minds too   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 well, tell us somewhat about the early Trisha growing up and so on. Love to learn a little bit more about you, and then we can talk about whatever we feel is relevant to talk about the early Tricia,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:35 right? Well, I grew up in rural South Georgia, small town in south Georgia, and always loved reading and hiking and the outdoors, and very quickly, knew that maybe I didn't want to be in a small town forever. So I went to college in Atlanta, and I got a degree in microbiology, and from there, I got a master's. Degree, and I started my career in Central Research and Development at a chemical company, a large chemical company. So I was looking at making chemicals from microbes. And that was very exciting. That was my dream job that I'd always wanted. So that was very cool to be able to achieve that goal, and I actually didn't like writing until I started doing more technical writing with papers and patents.   Michael Hingson ** 05:29 Technical writing can be boring, but people could make it more exciting than oftentimes they do. I would say I've had to do some of it. I understand   Tricia Copeland ** 05:39 well, you have to like the topic, right? If you don't like the topic, you're not going to like the paper,   Michael Hingson ** 05:45 right? But also, I think that a lot of technical writers write and it's all very factual, but I think even in technical writing, it would be better if writers could do some things to draw in readers. And I've always felt that about textbooks. For example, my master's degree and bachelor's degree are in physics, and I've always maintained that the the physics people who write these books, who are oftentimes fairly substantial characters in in the genre, if you will, or in the field, could do a lot more to interest people in science and physics by rather than just doing these technical books, telling some stories along the way, and bringing people in and making people relate more to the topic. And they don't do that like I think at least that they should.   Tricia Copeland ** 06:36 I guess that can be said, maybe for every technical Yeah. Area,   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 yeah, it would be nice if technical writers spend a little bit of time, but of course, then the other side of it is that the industry doesn't want that. So what do you   Tricia Copeland ** 06:54 do? It may be a catch 22 on that one   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 might be, but that's okay. So how long did you stay working at the tech at the chemical companies and so on?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:06 I was in the lab for four years, and then I moved into the patent Legal Group. So I began my career as a Patent Agent, and now that's what I do for a living. My day job is that I help clients draft and file their patent applications.   Michael Hingson ** 07:22 So you have your own business doing that. I do, yes, oh,   Tricia Copeland ** 07:28 well, I write by day and I write by night.   Michael Hingson ** 07:32 Yeah, well, that can be pretty exciting, though. You get all sorts of interesting things to write about. I   Tricia Copeland ** 07:40 do I meet a lot of cool people that are inventing cool things.   Michael Hingson ** 07:44 So here's the question, do you ever find that what you write about during the day influences you, and you want to use some of that, or the general concepts of some of that, at night, when you're doing your your fiction writing?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:58 I haven't done that yet, I did write one dystopian fiction about a viral pandemic, and that touched on a little bit of my background in microbiology and genetics, but not anything that my clients have done   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 well. So you got into the patent field when you when you started doing that initially, were you doing it for a company, or did you just leap out on your own and start to have your own business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:30 Yes, I was doing that for a company. Okay? And how long did you do that? I was at that company   Tricia Copeland ** 08:35 about a year and a half. And at the time, we lived in Pennsylvania and outside of Philly. So then we had a job change, and we moved to Denver, so I took a little time off to be with my kids before I started my business.   Michael Hingson ** 08:53 So how long ago did you start the business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:57 In 2012 so 13 years doing it a while? Wow,   Michael Hingson ** 09:01 okay, and obviously you're having some success because you're still doing it.   Tricia Copeland ** 09:05 I am. Yes, I love helping my clients, and feel like I can definitely give them a value add   Michael Hingson ** 09:14 if you're not giving something away. What's probably the most interesting patent that you helped somebody work on attaining   Tricia Copeland ** 09:24 I will say, I worked with an inventor a year ago, and amazing man, he had had his career in education and teaching, and he developed a set of blocks to help people or Help kids. I should say, learn the parts of speech so you could put the together, the blocks, whether it was a subject, verb, pronoun, noun, adjective, adverb, and I learned parts of speech that I never knew existed from helping them with this application, and I was very excited. To help him get his patent. That's kind of cool.   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Yeah, I am fair. I'm not sure I know all the parts of speech, but I remember being involved in high school well and in elementary school and diagramming sentences and learning a lot about the different or a number of the different parts of speech. Not sure I necessarily remember all of them extremely well, so I probably split infinitives and well, what do you do?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:28 Yes, I hated sentence structures.   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 Well, so what got you started then, since you were writing patents for people and so on, and helping people in securing patents. What got you then started in dealing with fiction writing, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:49 Well, when my kids were very young, I was a stay at home mom, and most of my days were spent chasing them around, occupying them, entertaining them, shuttling them from one place to another. So I realized in the evenings I was bored. I did my mind didn't have enough to occupy it. And I was about, I think it was about 38 and, you know, looking at my 40 year old birthday and thinking, huh, well, and I maybe it was like my 20 year high school reunion. I don't know why it coincide coincided, but I started thinking about my early college years I developed anorexia, and thinking about that time in my life and how poignant it was that I was able to recover from that disease and really gain some life skills from that experience. So I started a story that was a fictionalized account of my experience with anorexia and recovering for anorexia. So my first series, called the being me series, is a four book series about a character named Amanda who develops anorexia and then is able to recover.   Michael Hingson ** 12:01 So what caused if you understand, or, man, I don't know a lot about anorexia, Anorexia, and probably have some misconceptions about what I'm about to ask, but what, what caused it? Why did you develop that condition?   Tricia Copeland ** 12:16 Well, there's a lot of I mean, it happens differently for a lot of people, I think anorexia is a lot about control and having control over your environment. And I got there was a number of factors that I was depressed and not happy about not feeling like I was achieving, maybe what I should be achieving, and instead of someone might have turned to alcohol or drugs to alleviate those stressful feelings. I channeled all that into Okay? Well, if I'm just thin and if I just look good enough, then everything will be fine. And obviously, once your brain starts to get in that cycle, it just compounds on itself. You can't stop yourself from thinking that way. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 and what helped you get out of doing that? Was it writing or what? What really caused you to realize that ain't the way to go?   Tricia Copeland ** 13:16 Yeah, I almost died. That was it very it was a low point. And really, you know, if I didn't do something different, if I didn't let people help me do something different, I would not have made it. So really, you know, a lot of that is like educating people how serious eating disorders are, as well as how helpless sometimes the person that is experiencing them is in being able to help themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 13:48 And you said that this happened somewhat in your your college years.   Tricia Copeland ** 13:53 Yes, I was 20.   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Were there a lot of pressures were, were people criticizing you in any way that helped contribute to it, or was it sort of really   Tricia Copeland ** 14:04 internally? Part of it was internally. Part of it was, you know, what I thought people's expectations I was in. I was at a engineering school and I was a biology major, so maybe that wasn't the best place for me. Everybody was very high in performing. Yeah, yeah. There are many, many factors, I think, and just my my brain that was not processing things, maybe as realistically as they could have been processed.   Michael Hingson ** 14:33 But what you eventually did about it was to write a series about it, so clearly you were able to move beyond it, and then, if you will, talk about it,   Tricia Copeland ** 14:45 right, right? So I went into inpatient recovery, and then was able to get the help that I needed with therapist and psycho psychiatrist and support groups, and that was a big help. And then, yes, 20 years later, I. Wrote a series about it.   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 Well, that's pretty cool. And again, it's I'm always one who admires people who are able to and willing to talk about things. I went to an event last year was the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival, and the Cherry Blossom Festival, which happens every April, is a celebration of American history, and they'll bring people in who have some relationship to an historic event, or who have relatives who were so for example, the great grandson of President Grant was at this event, but one of the people who was there was a former secret service agent who rode in the car behind John Kennedy when he was in Dallas and assassinated, and it took him 45 years to get to the point where he could come out of his experiences enough to start to talk about it, and I just have always admired people who do that. For me, being in the World Trade Center on September 11 and getting out, I never really viewed it as all that traumatic, but I guess it was, but my way to deal with it was, and I realized it much later, but we had so many newspaper reporters who wanted to know about the blind guy who got out of the World Trade Center. I talked about it, I mean, answered everyone's questions. And that was ironically, I love to pick on the media, but ironically, it was the media that really probably helped me move forward from September 11 the most.   Tricia Copeland ** 16:41 Yeah, I can imagine that was a lot of processing that you were able to do, as you talked about it.   Michael Hingson ** 16:48 People asked all sorts of questions, some really good questions, some not so good questions. And we got to observe all sorts of different types of press people. We had one Italian film crew who came to our house, there were 13 people, most of whom didn't really seem to do a whole lot, but they were there. And then there was a Japanese crew that came. And I think there were two people. It's just amazing what you see and what you learn. And for me and my wife, both now my late wife, but both, both of us love to observe and study and really think about what all these people are doing and how they do it, and we use it as ways to help us learn more about things, if you will, studying and being a student. I think of life as always an important thing,   Tricia Copeland ** 17:39 right, yeah, and I guess everybody reacts different to trauma and how you can process that everybody needs a little bit different. But yes, if you could look at things through a learning lens, that can definitely help too.   Michael Hingson ** 17:52 So you wrote the being me series. How many books are in that series? Four books, four books. Okay, and so, how long ago did you write those?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:03 I published them between 2015 and 2016   Michael Hingson ** 18:07 Okay, did you self publish or I do? Yes, you still do. Okay, great. Well, all right, and then what? What made you decide to then continue and start going into sort of teenage and so on, fiction and fantasy and so on, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:31 I realized that I just loved writing, and it was something that I didn't want to stop doing. So when I looked around for my next genre to write in, it was very obviously fantasy. For me. I read fantasy from a very young age. I loved Merlin and King authors legends and the Lord of the Rings and all of those books as a young person and a young adult, and that's just what I wanted to write. So my first book, interestingly enough, my editor sent it back to me and said, This is not fantastical enough. You need to make it more paranormal. So it took a minute to make that switch. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 book was that   Tricia Copeland ** 19:16 that is drops of sunshine and it is mirrored off an experience I had. I was a camp counselor at a camp for the blind when I was in I guess after my freshman year of college, and the campers in my story have these extra sensory skills where they can read people's minds. That was the paranormal aspect of my book, and that's not known in the beginning the story to our main character, and then she discovers that these kids have this special talent, and that was how my fantasy books started out. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 Then where did it go from   Tricia Copeland ** 20:01 there? Then I jumped into the witches with the kingdom Journal series. I developed a character that was a vampire or is a vampire witch hybrid, and so she has a vampire mother and a witch father, but she doesn't know who her father is. She's never met him. And to make things a little bit harder, vampire witch Hyderabad are not allowed, but either the witch lines or the vampires, so both the vampires and the witches got together and said, these beings are too dangerous. We're not going to allow them in our society. And if she's discovered, then she'll be killed. That was the first character, Alina, and she's and to give her just a little more stress, I put her in a human High School, so now she pretends, you know, can't pretend to be a witch. Can't pretend to be a vampire. She needs to be human too. And, yeah, so that was a really fun book to write, and that's the series where the trinity of witches has to come together, so she has to find the other two witches of the Trinity, and they each get to tell their story in the books too. So that's why it's called the kingdom journals. It's a little bit of a journal format, so each character gets to tell their own story as well as telling the overall plot line of the series. How   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 do you come up with these characters and create these stories? I mean, it's very imaginative. I wouldn't have thought of it. How do you, and I'm sure other people say that, but how do you create the characters? How does all that   Tricia Copeland ** 21:32 work? Yeah, I set out, funny enough, I set out to write a vampire series that was my vampire is my favorite fantasy characters. And I thought, Okay, I'm gonna write a vampire series. It's not you don't want to do it too far out from what most people write or most people think of vampires. But I wanted my vampires to be a little bit different from the other vampires and other series. So I had this idea of making the vampire witch hybrid and her set in a human High School, and what would that look like? And then the challenge? I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with the challenge, but somehow I came up with this curse, and the curse was on the witch line, so it very quickly morphed into more of a witch book and the magical side of things, but the vampire characters are still there, and I explore them a little bit, although not as much as the witches.   Michael Hingson ** 22:27 Do you find that the characters essentially tell you what they want to be and who they are and why they do what they do. How much are the characters involved in your writing process? I've heard other authors say that that in some of the fiction things, the characters really create the story   Tricia Copeland ** 22:47 they do. I feel like my books are very character driven. So how I usually start with the idea for a character and think of their personality, their challenges, what I want, what themes I want to show with that character and then build the world sort of around that character. So it shows those themes and those character traits and what they're overcoming, either in their personal life or in their their physical life, right? But I do have characters that go off script. In the second book, kingdom of darkness. I have a character who we're not sure if he's a good guy or a bad guy. The main character thinks that he may be trying to delude her into thinking he's good when he's not really good. But I wrote him so well, like he was so nice that I couldn't make him a villain. So he became, I rewrote the story a little bit. I'd written it in my mind, I guess, but I rewrote it a little bit. So he did end up being a villain. And then somehow he got his whole own book, so he gets to star in his whole book after that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:54 And does he stay a villain? No, he   Tricia Copeland ** 23:57 didn't stay. He didn't was never, I mean, I kind of wrote it so the main character thought he was a villain, but in the end, I didn't make him a villain.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Well, I like books like that. I yeah, I think that most creatures are generally pretty nice.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:14 We would hope so,   Michael Hingson ** 24:16 although I don't know that that bears necessarily are overly generally nice to people, but, you know, who knows? Yeah, that doesn't mean they're evil either. Well, no, yeah.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:27 I mean, they're just living their life, right? That's they need their food sources. Is just like we need our food sources. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 I'd rather not be their food source, though, but that's okay, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 24:39 Yeah, and I don't know. I do struggle with, like, evil or antagonistic characters, because I'm, I don't like the idea that there's a character that is purely evil for no reason. So that is, that's always a grapple in an author's mind. I think,   Michael Hingson ** 24:56 well, and you know, I'll go back to Harry Potter. Modern Of course, we have Lord waldemart, who was definitely evil. But even so, the way she created the characters and the way she crafted the books, which probably in some ways, are similar, just in a process of what you do, it's not necessarily overly graphically evil. Even if there's evil, it isn't so graphic that you you you become totally adverse or against it. Evil or bad things are there, but it's all on how you present it. That's why I like books that are essentially puzzles, if you will, because they leave a lot of things to your imagination, and they give you the ability to as a reader, think about it, but as a writer, you also are essentially drawing the reader in to where you want the reader to go, but, but they're puzzles, rather than just some graphic thing, talking about all these horrible, mean, nasty things that a character may do.   Tricia Copeland ** 26:08 That's true, and it's all perspective, right? So the quote, unquote villain in my series is out to destroy all the vampires. But then you meet vampires that are good vampires, right? And you think, Huh, well, maybe this one vampire shouldn't be destroyed, because this vampire is not acting in a mean or hurtful way. So many sides to those questions,   Michael Hingson ** 26:33 yeah. Well, so the Kingdom series. How many books are in that one?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:38 There are four books in the main series, and there's a prequel to that series, okay?   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 And then what happened? What happened after that series?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:48 So in the finale, kingdom of war, my witches were going to have this huge battle against a vampire army that the evil witch created to, you know, battle the good witches. Yeah, she put which souls in the vampires. So that made them sort of like super vampires. But anyway, my witches needed an army, and I thought who would be a good character to be, to have an army that can come help the witches. So, yeah, the beings I thought of were fairies, and I created a queen Titania, is her name, who had an army who would come help the witches battle these vampire witch soul hybrid be. And when I created her, she just kind of took on her own character, and I quickly morphed that into what was her backstory, what were struggles? Where was she living? Where would the spay army come from? And that is what kind of launched my realm chronicle series, that the finale is coming out next month. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 28:10 that's that's pretty cool, and that that answers, again, the question we talked about earlier. The character actually took over, if you will, the writing, which is always cool, because that really shows how deeply you're invested in the characters and you let them have their voices, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 28:26 And I couldn't really give up the characters from my kingdom Journal series. They not, you know, not to give too much away, but they do complete their first quest and but this evil witch who's trying to destroy the vampires is still out there somewhere, so I couldn't completely let them go. So the witches from my kingdom Journal series come into the round Chronicles series, and the fairies and the witches are continuing to help each other.   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 Well, that's cool. Well, it's kind of neat to even though it's a new series, and I assume you can read one without reading the other, but still, it's neat that you, you follow on and help to craft and expand the world.   Tricia Copeland ** 29:11 It's been a lot of fun. And I, you know, selfishly, I didn't want to let go the characters. I felt like they had a little bit of story left in them, and I was able to do that through the round chronicle series. And yeah, it it was a lot of fun for me to   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 write. And now, of course, the question is, will there be a lot more story with them, which is part of the adventure that will come next? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 29:33 Yes, I'm, I'm thinking of that. I put my characters through a lot. So after I finished the finale, I felt like I just had to let them rest. I'm not really sure if I will continue with those same characters or or either pull out some different characters from that book to have their own stories. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 well, it's, it's going to be an adventure. No question about. It   30:00 definitely so   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 with your books. Do you have themes in your books? That is, are you? Are you trying to convey messages? Do you have themes and things that you want people to think about as they go through reading your books?   Tricia Copeland ** 30:16 I do. I feel like I like that in the book, and so I kind of embed that in my books too, but it's really more about what is the character grappling with. Not only, like I said in their physical world, maybe Queen Titania is the first female queen in her realm, and some of the old guard, other monarchs are not sure that a female should be able to rule, So that's sort of an out, outside challenge. But she also has inner conflict and challenges where she's not really trusting that she really can do it and she's really supposed to do it, and should she, you know, hand the crown to someone else who may be older or wiser or and so it does she have faith in herself. You know, would sort of be that theme there. And so each of the books have, I mean, it's not like I say, hey, the theme of this book is you need to believe in yourself, yeah, but just showing that the character arcs and how they overcome their challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 31:22 How do you again create those? How do you work those in what? What's the process that allows you to to put those themes in and and add them to the book and bring that value out? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 31:37 I guess it's just how, the way I the challenges I choose to put in front of my characters and showing them fail at times, and showing them I do write first person, so you're getting a very up close view of what the character is thinking and feeling at all times. So I think that helps with a little bit of that, knowing that the character is struggling with whatever their um, XYZ, inner, inner turmoil that they're struggling with. And then, you know, just having other characters bounce things off of them, because the character themselves might not realize, hey, I I get anxious when I'm not in control of situations. So, you know, somebody might say, Hey, you're doing this again, stop.   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 That's why we have editors,   32:30 right,   Michael Hingson ** 32:33 and other people to help well, so you are you, but you clearly talk with your characters and you let them have a voice, which is, I think, something that adds a really great dimension to the writing that you do. And I think it's very important to do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 32:51 I hope so. I have very detailed character sheets for each of my characters. I create much bigger back stories than, probably, than really makes it into the books, just to be able to know, like, how my characters will react in situations, what their growth needs to be, where areas that I want to show that growth, and what's most important in their values, And how would they react to all the different challenges?   Michael Hingson ** 33:24 What caused you to bring fairies into it again? I think that's pretty imaginative. You were writing about witches of vampire. Fairies are are different. How did that come about?   Tricia Copeland ** 33:34 Honestly, I was at a book event, and a person was walking around with these postcards, and they were trying to get authors to write a short story for an anthology, and it had to be a fantasy genre, and it had to be a character with a mental health challenge. But the image on the postcard was of a fairy, and she was hunched in a meadow in these grasses, and she looked kind of anxious or scared, maybe even a little timid or worried. And I thought, Oh, that's a cool image. It was very striking with the green grass and her fairy wings and just her eyes were like had just a lot of feeling behind them. So it caught my eye. I never thought I'd write about fairies. I was looking for the Army for my witches, and I thought, well, you know, the fairies could be like the characters the witches go to. So it was just kind of happenstance that I happened to see this fairy character on a postcard and think, Huh, I could, you know, the fairies could be the answer.   Michael Hingson ** 34:44 And turns out, they were, they were Yes. So are all fairies girls? No, okay.   Tricia Copeland ** 34:51 I mean, fairies are much like humans in my world, except that my fairies have wings. They in. Middle Earth, which is just below earth. So they share our same bedrock. It kind of mirrors our Earth in my world. And they have rings where they can come back and forth between the fae and the human realm, and they live in our contemporary times. I like those themes of there might be witches, there might be vampires, there might be fairies that walk alongside us every day, and we don't know it.   Michael Hingson ** 35:24 And do they know Bill Bo Baggins, since we're talking about Middle Earth, just   Tricia Copeland ** 35:29 they do, well, they might have read the book. I don't know that they met him personally.   Michael Hingson ** 35:35 Yeah. Well, that's, you know, another, another story, but it's but it's cool. What other kinds of characters are you thinking of for maybe future books, outside of witches, vampires and fairies,   Tricia Copeland ** 35:49 right? So I won't give too much away, but no, in order to perform some of the spells that they need to perform in, I guess in two of my books in this series, to be a Fae legend, which is the third book of the series, and to be a Fae which is the finale, The last book of the series. My witches and fairies need to perform these spells. So they need a great amount of power or energy, and they have to assemble different kinds of beings. And in the finale, they have to assemble 12 different kinds of beings. If you try to make a list of different kinds of being, you actually in ones that the witches and the fairies could find in the human realm, like so I had an elf and the werewolves and nicks and selkies like so the Nicks are shape shifters that shift into fish, and then the selkies are shape shifters that shift into now I'm blanking not walruses seals, sorry. So yeah, I had to go find all these different characters. So all of those characters are in this final book, and I I'm thinking of maybe some of those characters that can form a new series.   Michael Hingson ** 37:11 So are all trolls, mean, nasty creatures, or, do you know yet,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:16 in my series, they are depicted as that? Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 37:21 how about gnomes? I don't have any gnomes. Well, there's another one for you to look at down the line. Might be. It might be interesting to see where that goes. Of course. Yep, so you but you have a variety of characters, and I think it's it's great when you have a rich culture of a lot of different characters. And of course, there are all sorts of potentials for conflict or for different creatures to work learn to work together too,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:56 right? The Fay historically have not worked with other beings or creatures. They very much kept to themselves and had primary purpose. They think their primary purpose is to protect the humans from all the evil spirits. So that has been their focus historically, and they've shunned other groups of beings based on whether they thought they were descended from the Creator, who's sort of like their god or the creator or the evil one, right? So the Fae believed that the vampires and werewolves, for instance, were created by the evil ones, so they shouldn't associate with those types of beings, and there's a lot of learning in there. I guess you could say it, are we going to partner with these beings, and how? What does that look like? And is that really okay? And can we choose a different path than what our predecessors have chosen?   Michael Hingson ** 38:59 And I guess it's sort of pretty clearly, is that they somewhat do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 39:06 Yes, they do. And Titania, our main character, is very much the Herald for that type of behavior and that type of community and that type of acceptance   Michael Hingson ** 39:23 well. So your next year, your book will be out in July, and then where do you go from there?   Tricia Copeland ** 39:31 Yes, so like I said, I'm tossing around ideas for fantasy characters. I also write in the romance genre, so generally, I'll write a fantasy, and then I'll write a romance. I'll switch back and forth between writing those. The past year and a half, I guess I've been focusing on finishing this fantasy series, so I have two romances now queued up that I'm excited about writing, and we'll get to those first. I   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 think, hmm. What romances Have you written already?   Tricia Copeland ** 40:03 So after the being me series, I started the perfect romance series, which the first book was a little bit different from a typical romance. It has five parts, and it's the same main character, but based on decisions at different times in her life, her life goes off in a different way. So you see her go to France and fall in love with the French man, or you see her take a job in New York City and fall in love with a investment banker. And so you see her in different stages of her life, having made different decisions, but still finding happily ever after. So that kind of kicked off that. And somebody, somebody called it speculative romance at one time, and it's more like make your own story or choose your own ending type of book. But from there, I initially thought I would write like a full book showing each of the happily ever afters with that same character, but I wrote one book showing one happily ever after scenario, but then decided that I would look at all of her friends lives so they all met in college, and they were in this one sorority together. And so I write different books showing the different friends love stories. So I've written perfect. Was the first one perfect, always with Chloe. And then Brie book is a close as close to perfect. And this is still set in Lexington, Kentucky. And then the last one is perfect office pack, which is a enemies to lovers, office romance.   Michael Hingson ** 41:51 Now, do you put a lot of sex in your books? I   Tricia Copeland ** 41:54 don't know. My books are what's called closed door or fade to black, so you'll see some kissing, but not much more than that,   Michael Hingson ** 42:03 and that's fine. And the reason I asked that question was to get to the whole issue of so many people when they're writing, just have to make everything so graphic. There's got to be all this sex and all this other stuff that they put in them. And my view has always been, is that really necessary? And I gather you, you're essentially saying the same thing. And again, it's like detective stories. I love to read a lot of detective stories, but I like the detective stories most that are puzzles. That is, I want to figure out who done it. I don't need all the graphics of how somebody got murdered, or what happened. It happens. You don't need to put all that graphic stuff in to get to dealing with the puzzle. And it's the same thing with sex. You really need all that. Like a lot of comedians, it's all the shock stuff. They got to have all these horrible words, swear words, and everything else but the best comedians, I think most people, if they really study it, will agree, are the ones that tell stories without all that dirty and sex stuff in it.   Tricia Copeland ** 43:12 And that's what I like to read and what I like to watch, too. But there are definitely people that enjoy different types of books. Yeah, there are, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:21 yeah, I hear you, but I, I would prefer to be able to use my imagination in various things. So one of my favorite detective stories or Characters of All Times is Nero Wolfe, written by Rex Stout, because he he writes in a way where you don't see all the graphic and don't need to see any of the graphic to get the entire picture. He describes enough so you know what's going on, but he doesn't deal with it in a way that would How do I put it? Offend anyone?   Tricia Copeland ** 43:59 Right? And I would probably argue that mystery books are would be the hardest to write, I think, because you have to give enough clues throughout so that the reader doesn't think, Oh, I would have never thought that was the villain, but you don't want to put too much in. So it's so obvious who the villain is, right? So I think it's the ways those authors weave those stories are very intricate and thought out and multi layered and impressive to me   Michael Hingson ** 44:34 well. And the reality is that sometimes, and again, I'll use Rex Stout as an example, when you find out who did it, or who the bad person was, and Wolf explains it clearly, all the clues were there, but it would be really hard for you to put it together. Now, there have been a few times where there were things that he didn't tell you, that if you if he had said those. Because during the book, you might have figured it out, but mostly the clues are somewhat there, but it is so subtle that I doubt very many people would figure it out, which   Tricia Copeland ** 45:14 is, yeah, definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 45:17 It makes it so much fun. When that happens, it is. So you're, you're still deciding what you want to do for your next series of books, or what, what the next realm will be, if you will,   Tricia Copeland ** 45:31 in the fantasy genre, yes, I'm still deciding which way to go with my next characters.   Michael Hingson ** 45:38 Yes, right, but you're going to probably do some romances before you go into those. I   Tricia Copeland ** 45:43 am, yes, I was just writing a newsletter to my subscribers. In the last book, I had subscribers pick names for my characters. And so in this book, I thought, You know what? I don't like this character has has only been introduced and very briefly in one of the books, and so she doesn't have a lot of backstory. And I thought, You know what, I can just ask my readers, where do you think she should live? What are her hobbies? What does she like to do? What's her favorite book genre? I thought that would be a lot of fun for my readers to direct some of that.   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 And what kind of answers did you get? Did you get a lot of feedback?   Tricia Copeland ** 46:22 Like I said, I Well, with the names one when? So I'm just sent out the poll today, new one, but for the name ones, yeah, I would. I got like 100 answers. And then I thought, you know, next time, I won't do the names, because sometimes names are so personal and can vote like a lot of emotion that people get very heated about people's names.   Michael Hingson ** 46:47 Now, do mostly women answer? Do you get both sexes answering your questions? It is   Tricia Copeland ** 46:52 mostly women, but definitely, maybe 10% male, I would think. And actually, I feel like I have more interaction, and that's mostly on the fantasy side, but I feel like I actually have sometimes more interaction. Maybe, I don't know, maybe this get more passionate about fantasy?   Michael Hingson ** 47:13 Yeah, probably so. But you know, there's, there's something to be said for reading a good romance book. I like cozy mysteries as well, and a lot of those are really combinations of mysteries and romance, and the mystery part is oftentimes more straightforward, but it's just the whole book and the putting the entire book together that makes it so much fun.   Tricia Copeland ** 47:41 Yeah, those can be a quick, you know, kind of feel good read. I yeah for that genre, yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 there's nothing wrong with that. It's good to have feel good books occasionally,   Tricia Copeland ** 47:54 too. I am all for feel good everything, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, when I travel, I like to read on airplanes, and I like not to work and do reading that's really related to work, because going and coming from events is really the time that I get to have the most down time once I get somewhere I am on until I am on the airplane coming home. And so it is the way to relax. So I enjoy reading things that will allow me to relax when I'm going and coming from trips or from events, which is so important, I think, to be able to do and I think people should do more of that. It's always worth slowing down some and really letting your mind just wander.   Tricia Copeland ** 48:38 Yeah, plane trips are my favorite, because that's I do the same thing. I read on the plane, and I listen to audio books mostly if I'm home, when I'm exercising or when I'm doing chores. But to be able to sit down and read doesn't happen that often.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 What do you like to read most from audio books? What? What genre?   Tricia Copeland ** 48:59 Um, exactly what I write, fantasy and romance.   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 What's your favorite fantasy books   Tricia Copeland ** 49:06 I just finished, and I'm so behind because I don't read fantasy when I'm writing fantasy. So I just finished Holly Black's, the folk of the air series, the cruel prince, I think the cool prince, the wicked king and the queen of nothing. I think they're the three books in that series. So that was really good series. And I'm writing Emily's wild encyclopedia fairies right now. So I just started that get   Michael Hingson ** 49:33 a little bit more information on those fairies for a future book. Right? That's that's kind of important to do. So do you produce with I've asked a number of people this, and I'll ask you, do you arrange for audio books to be produced from your series?   Tricia Copeland ** 49:53 I do both my fantasy series, The Kingdom journals, as well as the realm Chronicles. I have audio books. Four. I'm a little bit behind in the realm Chronicles. My Narrator had some health problems, so I'm switching narrators. But my new narrator, Tina walls, wolsen craft, yes, I think that's how you pronounce her last name, she will be working on the fourth book in the realm Chronicles series in September. So I'm hoping that will come out in October, and that will be my, my eighth audio book.   Michael Hingson ** 50:23 And where can people get the audio books?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:26 So the kingdom Journal series is on all platforms, and then the realm chronicle series, the newest series, is on Audible. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 50:37 so and again under your name for the author?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:42 Yep. Tricia Copeland, author, the Kingdom Journal series. The first two books are female character, so and now I'm blank. I can't believe I'm blanking on her name. It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah. So I had a female narrator for the first two books, and then the second two books are male Lee main characters. So Dan Delgado did the narration on those and then Jillian Yetter, who was the most amazing narrator for Titania. She even had pink hair, just just like Titania does, a hold of the the cover of the book has Titania is pink hair. So that was really fun to work with her, and we won an award for the second book in that series, to be a fake guardian   Michael Hingson ** 51:26 in audio book. Oh, cool. What was the award? It   Tricia Copeland ** 51:29 was independent book publisher Association, young adult fantasy, Silver Award.   Michael Hingson ** 51:35 Oh, cool. That's exciting. It's always good to have awards. Have you run other awards along the way?   Tricia Copeland ** 51:40 I have several Colorado independent book Publishers Association for the first book, kingdom of embers, in the kingdom Journal series, as well as several the global Book Awards for to remember it to be, to be a fake queen, which is the first book in the kingdom journals and as Ray at my Aztec mythology.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 So how many books have you written all together?   Speaker 1 ** 52:08 Next month's book will be 23 Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 52:13 That is really exciting. Well, I know we're putting in the show notes, the picture of the book cover for the next book. And as I mentioned earlier, if you want to send us other books that you think people ought to read, we'll put those pictures in the the notes as well. I'm glad to have all the pictures you want to share.   Tricia Copeland ** 52:31 I will definitely share them. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 52:34 so is there anything else you'd like all of our listeners and viewers to know or to think about going forward,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:42 right? Well, if you go to my website, which is triciacopeland.com,   Michael Hingson ** 52:47 and Tricia is T, R, i, c, I A, Copeland, C, O, P, E, L,   52:53 a n, d, l, a n, d.com.com,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:56 yes, if you go there, and if you just want to get a trial of my books. If you subscribe to my newsletter, then you can read a free short story fantasy as well as a free short story romance.   Michael Hingson ** 53:07 Oh, okay. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way to do that,   Tricia Copeland ** 53:13 they can reach out on direct message, on social media, or my email is Tricia T, R, i, c, I a@triciacopeland.com   53:21 too. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 then people can, can reach out and and they'll, I'm sure, have all sorts of ideas for you.   Tricia Copeland ** 53:31 I love ideas, and I love talking to readers about my books.   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 Yeah, I I've written three, and I love getting comments and feedback from people, because I get new ideas and new thoughts. And mine are really all about helping to inspire people and so on. So it's it's always good when people have their their observations, whatever they are.   54:01 I agree.   Michael Hingson ** 54:03 Well, anyway, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I really value your time being here, and I hope people will reach out and and also, more important, get your books and read your books and review them. One of the most important things that all of us who are authors will tell anyone is, please review the books. Please go to places like Amazon and Reddit and so on and review the books, because those reviews are are viewed and paid attention to by so many people. So giving an author, a great review is always a wonderful thing to do.   Tricia Copeland ** 54:44 We do appreciate those and thank you so much, Michael for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 54:48 Well, it was my pleasure, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching today. We really appreciate it. If you've got any thoughts, I'd love to hear from you, please email me at Michael H i. M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast, you can see all of our podcasts there, but they're also available wherever you're listening to podcasts and and you can find the most anywhere podcasts are available. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest that you think would make a wonderful guest, and you'd like to have them tell their stories and Tricia you as well, I would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for more people to have on the podcast, and so please don't hesitate to reach out and don't hesitate to provide introductions, but again, give us a five star review here on unstoppable mindset. We value your reviews greatly, and we really appreciate you doing it. So I want to thank you, Tricia again, for being here. This has been fun, and I think it's really important that people do get a great sense of what you're doing, and I think we've done that, and we're really anxious to see where you go from here.   Tricia Copeland ** 56:08 Thank you so much, Michael, I so appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:15 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

他是一位活躍於區塊鏈與金融科技的創業者，在金融業縱橫多年，並且目前是海耶克科技共同創辦人兼商務長，在傳統金融與加密貨幣產業都有豐富的經驗。 本集邀請金融派大星以及資深研究員 Jason 來跟大家聊聊，加密三大法案內容是什麼？穩定幣會改變了哪些傳統金融的生態？未來加密產業的前景是什麼？

In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset we get to experience a story of a man who demonstrates what real unstopability is really all about. I hope you will be inspired and that you will learn some good life lessons from what you will hear. Our guest, Kijuan Amey grew up around Durham North Carolina. After completing high school, rather than going to college, circumstances brought him to an Airforce recruiter. He scored quite high on his tests which resulted in his recruiter showing him a list of jobs including working as an in-flight refueling expert. The job was demanding, and it requires significant intelligence. After pondering and speaking with the recruiter Kijuan signed up for the job and spent the next 6 and a half years refueling aircraft in flight.   In May of 2017 Kijuan was struck by a motorcycle and suffered a significant number of major injuries. Of course, his career as a refueling expert ended. He actually spent the next 3 and a half years healing and eventually deciding to move on with his life.   Kijuan describes himself as someone who always likes getting answers and moving forward. This he did as you will discover. You will hear the story of Kijuan Amey in detail. Today he teaches and he is a coach. He also wrote and published a book. What I haven't told you to this point is that one of the things that happened to Kijuan as a result of his injuries is that he lost his eyesight. As he will tell you, however, “I may have lost my sight, but I have not lost my vision”. Kijuan today is a keynote speaker talking to many audiences and helping people to discover how they can move forward with their lives no matter what befalls them.     About the Guest:   Kijuan Amey, the visionary behind Amey Motivation, hails from Durham, NC, where his journey of resilience and success began. After graduating from Southern High School, he dedicated a decade of his life to the US Air Force, achieving the rank of Staff Sergeant as an In-flight Refueling Specialist. Medically retired, he transitioned into academia, earning a degree and founding Amey Motivation LLC. Formerly served as the vice president for the Carolina regional group of the Blinded Veterans Association, Kijuan is also a mentor and ambassador for the Air Force Wounded Warriors program. Beyond his remarkable military career, Kijuan is a man of many talents, boasting over 25 years of drumming expertise, onstage acting, and now, an upcoming bestseller, “Don't Focus on Why Me.” However, life took an unexpected turn on May 5th, 2017, when a motorcycle accident claimed his eyesight. Yet, as Kijuan profoundly states, “I may have lost my sight, but I did not lose my vision.” Now armed with an inspiring story of overcoming adversity, Kijuan has become a motivational force, empowering others to reach their highest potential. Whether addressing a crowd of 1,500 or engaging in one-on-one sessions, Kijuan is well-equipped for any speaking engagement. He's not just a speaker; he's a catalyst for transformation, ready for the task ahead! Contact him at (919) 641-8150 | kijuan@ameymotivation.com | AmeyMotivation.com Ways to connect with Kijuan:   Website: ameymotivation.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kijuan-amey-783889121?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/167F8mGMfR/?mibextid=wwXIfr Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kijuanamey?igsh=NmZtNHRqbW1meWNy&utm_source=qr      About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. I am Michael hingson, and you are listening and or watching our podcast. Unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And for those who may not really understand all of that, we start with inclusion, because if you talk to diversity people, they typically leave out any discussion of disabilities, and today, especially, that gets to be important, because our guest Kijuan, Amey, is blind, and I, of course, as many of you probably know also, am blind, and so we're going to talk about blind, and who knows what else we'll we'll get into all sorts of adventures. There's another thing that Kijuan and I have in common, and he doesn't even really probably know about it, and that is that in my book thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at Ground Zero, there's a section called guide dog wisdom. And in the section of guide dog wisdom, number two, the main point of that one is, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. And that was published in Thunder dog anyway, we'll talk about whatever comes along. But Kijuan, I want to welcome you to doing a stoppable mindset, and thanks for being here. We're glad to have you,   Kijuan Amey ** 02:42 Michael, I truly appreciate you allowing me to come on your platform and share my story.   Michael Hingson ** 02:47 Well, no allowance necessary. It is all all about people conversing and telling their stories and why they do what they do, and showing that they're unstoppable, so that we can show everybody else that they're unstoppable as well, or really ought to consider themselves more unstoppable than they think. But anyway, we're glad you're here, and looking forward to having a great conversation with you. Why don't we start by you going back and telling us kind of about the the early years of Kijuan, the early years of Yeah. Let's start with the beginning. You know, you know, like they, they always say you gotta start at the beginning somewhere. So might as well start at the beginning.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:29 Yeah. So back in the 90s, born in Durham, North Carolina, where I was, of course, raised there as well. I don't live too far from there. Now, honestly, I'm only maybe 2530 minutes from there, so I still consider myself right here in it.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 And of course, having grown up in Durham, you must be a major basketball fan of some sort.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:55 What? Why would you say that there's no basketball around here? What   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 are you talking about? Yes, 25 miles away from you. Yeah, I am definitely a, a   Kijuan Amey ** 04:04 true Understander of the rivalry UNC versus Duke. Okay, oh gosh, and and then I might be from Durham, but I'm actually a UNC fan.   Michael Hingson ** 04:16 I was in Carolina once and Northern Carolina, North Carolina in Durham, several years ago to do a speech. And we came in on a Thursday night, and I got to the hotel was pretty tired, but I thought I would unpack and watch TV. And at the time, there was a show on CBS called without a trace. I kind of like the show, so I turned it on, and at eight o'clock, when without a trace was supposed to come on, there was suddenly an announcement that says that without a trace will not be seen tonight, because we're going to be presenting live the basketball game between North Carolina State and University of. North Carolina to see which one is going to go to the chip college championships. And so if you want to watch without a trace, you can watch it Sunday morning at two in the morning. I wasn't going to do that, but anyway. But anyway. So yeah, the basketball. It runneth hot there, obviously,   Kijuan Amey ** 05:22 yeah, so it's pretty interesting. There is a meme for those who understands what that is, but it's a depiction. There's North Carolina State, Duke and UNC, all standing on top of a mountain, all of the mascots, and North Carolina State says, I'm going to do this one for my team, and they jump off the mountain. And then UNC says, and I'm going to do this one for my team, and then they kick Duke off the mountain.   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 Listen, I'm telling you, man, it is serious around I know it is really serious. It's so serious. So, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 06:05 no, I grew up in a UNC household, um, grandmother, mother, I mean, dad, hey, listen, if you they even worked at Duke and still were UNC fans. It's just the way it was, you know, and it's hard to when you grew up in it was hard to go against, you know, Unc, when they have such a amazing teams with Michael Jordan, Antoine Jameson, all these guys that came through there, you just like, gosh, these guys were really great. And so it's just one of those things. But, you know, kind of growing up with that lifestyle, you had the two games during the season, and you you hope they met in the in the in the ACC tournament, right? Because you wanted to see if there could be a clean sweep, well. And so this past year, Duke got to sleep. They rightfully, rightfully so, because their star player is going to be drafted number one this year. So they rightfully got it   Michael Hingson ** 07:12 another year. I was in brether County, Kentucky to do a speech, and it was the day of the NCAA championship. So one of the two teams was the what Wildcats of Kentucky, and I forget who the other one was, but I was to do a speech that started at 6pm and I was told it was at a high school. And I was told this speech has to end absolutely latest, at 6:30pm because by 631 the gym will be completely closed and and everyone will be gone because everyone wants to go home and see the Wildcats. Well, I did the speech. I ended it at 630 and everyone was gone. By 631 they were flooding out. Boy, I couldn't believe how fast they all got out. I'm   Kijuan Amey ** 08:09 telling you. Man, those, what we call them is blue, blue bloods, yeah, and these are the big, the biggest, you know, college teams that that impact that sport. So for basketball, of course, you got your UNC, your Duke, your Kentucky, your Kansas, those types of teams, you know. And football we already know is kind of shifting a little bit, but hey, it's just the way it is with all this nio money now. So yeah, and that's kind of what's going on nowadays. You got to have some money. And the difference between UNC and Duke, one's a private school and one's public. There you go. Well, so tell us. So tell us more about you. Yes. So me, besides me being a Tar Heel fan, I personally, you know, went after high school, graduated from Southern High School here in Durham, and then went on to the United States Air Force. I actually was going to consider going to North Carolina State, but it was not to become a fan. It was because they had one of the better engineering programs in the state, and better than UNC, huh? UNC doesn't really offer engineering. They offer computer science. And I didn't want that. And the computer science is kind of boring to me, yeah? And I mean, I'm just being honest, yeah, that's okay. And so I wanted to do either software or computer engineering, and the two best schools in the state were North Carolina State University and North Carolina agriculture and Technical State University, which we shortened for North Carolina A and T. So those two schools are the best here in North Carolina, which actually get a lot of great funding for engineering. Yeah, by the way. So yeah, that was what I was planning on doing, but there were admission hiccups. And so I said, you guys can have your admission hiccups. I already can't afford you. Anyway, I'm gonna take a different route. And so I have a really heavy or, shall I say my family has a really heavy background in the military, and mostly navy. Jeez, maybe seven, I think maybe six or seven Navy members, and then one army, one Marine, one went from the Navy to the Coast Guard. And then you have me, who kicked off the Air Force journey, and then my youngest brother is now carrying that torch, so he's out there in Italy. Man, I'm a little jealous about it. It's okay. I never got to see Italy. It's all right. It's all right. But anyway, I went into the Air Force and became an in flight refueling specialist. So what does that mean? Exactly, yeah, yeah. That's what I was getting into. I can't just say it without not telling so what that means is, I do refill aircraft, but I do it in the sky. It's basically like airplanes pulling up to a flying gas station,   Michael Hingson ** 11:28 which can be very tricky, tricky.   Kijuan Amey ** 11:30 That's a That's an understatement of the year. It's dangerous the first so when I was going through school, the first warning that they had in the book says flying two planes in close proximity is inherently dangerous. You think there's no way that's possible. No couldn't be Who are they telling this to? Like, man, it's almost like a five year or five year old needed to read that or something. So I'm just like, okay, the way to scare me. Appreciate it. And anywho I did that job for on paper, 10 years, three months and 17 days. That's how long the military counted. I Yeah, say, six and a half   Michael Hingson ** 12:22 years now. Why did you decide to do that, to go into the military? No to to become an in flight? Oh,   Kijuan Amey ** 12:31 that's because, well, first, yeah, yeah, you're right. That's a good question, because I had no clue that even existed. Didn't even know until my recruiter showed me, because I scored so high on the ASVAB, he said, I gotta show you something. And I was like, Okay, what is it? And so, you know, when you're going into the military, you're kind of skeptical about them trying to sell you a dream. And you know, so I'm like, and again, I have plenty of military families, so they're all telling me about this. They're like, don't let them sell you no dream. Make sure you pick a job before you go to basic training, because you don't want to go in open general and all this stuff. I said, okay, cool. Well, when he shows me that video, I start giggling. I said, Okay, all right. And he's like, what? I'm like, yeah, that's pretty cool. But what's the actual job you're going to show me? And he's like, this is the job as it that looks like a video game, man. He's like, he was like, I know it's crazy, but you qualify for it   Michael Hingson ** 13:40 now. What, what, what characteristic did you have, or what was the scoring on the test that made you qualify for that?   Kijuan Amey ** 13:49 I don't know what the exact cutoff is, but I score an 87 on my ASVAB out of 100 so that's that's high. Um, you needed a 50 to get into the Air Force. And I scored the 87 and he was so happy and elated. He called me as soon as he got my score. Not like, waited a day or two, no, he called me as soon as he saw the opening of the email. And he was like, When can you come in? That's all he said to me. He didn't say nothing else on the phone. And I was like, um, I could be there tomorrow. He was like, I'll be here. I said, okay, but anyway, that's literally how excited he was. He didn't even tell me why until I got there, so I had no clue, until the day I arrived in his office, and he was, he pulled out this stack of papers that he had stapled together, which was a was jobs, listing of jobs. And it was like eight pages, front and back, listings. And I'm like, Okay, what is this? And then I get close to it, I read. And I'm like, Oh, these are jobs. He's like, Yeah. He's like, go ahead. You flip through him, if you like. And I'm flipping through he's already started highlighting some and I knew there was something I wasn't gonna do. I mean, there was one of them that wasn't highlighted that I thought I wanted to do, which I'm glad I didn't, because I told it basically been me working on, like, Humvees and trucks and stuff. And he was like, You are way too smart for that. I said, okay, but that's what I know. That's what I just came out of high school doing, you know, because I went to a high school that had vocational trades and stuff. So I loved cars, I still do, and worked on mine until, literally, I couldn't see anymore, and so, you know, slowly becoming a lost trait. But hey, somebody's got to do it anyway. Yeah, that's how I got into that job. He showed it to me on a computer screen, and I was like, What the heck he's like, I've never, I said I'd never seen this before. He's like, you're not gonna see it as a civilian, because only the military does.   Michael Hingson ** 16:09 So why is it the military essentially said you did it six and a half years and you said you did it as 10.   Kijuan Amey ** 16:14 No, opposite. I said I did it six and a half. Oh, okay, rather, okay, 10, right? Because that was the day they retired me, the six and a half is the day I had my injury, and I never showed back up to work. Basically, what was your injury? My injury was a motorcycle accident where a car pulled out in front of okay, yeah, yeah. Sustained my eyes, my eyesight loss, traumatic brain injury, PTSD, spinal cord injury, broken, both legs, everything. What do you want to know? The only thing that didn't get, I guess you say, didn't have a surgery on was my arms   Michael Hingson ** 16:55 got it, but they, but they kept you in essentially, well, you were, you were in the military, so you stayed in while you were healing, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 17:06 Yeah, so it, what happened was the reason it took so long, nobody really knew what to do with me and I, and I'll get you to why, or an understanding of why. So I did four years active, but now, at the time of my accident, I'm a reservist. I'm not active duty anymore. So fortunately for me, I was on an active duty, or in an active status, is what we call it, in the reserves, because I was in a travel status that day of my accident because I had to work that weekend, and on the day, which was May 5, 2017 that was my travel day. Okay, thankfully, because had it been may 4, 2017 I wouldn't have any of this, literally just one day. Wow. And so they were trying to figure out how to process me. They didn't know what to keep me, to let me go, to drop me off a cliff, like they didn't know what to do. And so as we were trying to file every piece of paper known to the what do you call it? DOD, Department of Defense. We had no clue what to do. Medical didn't know what to do. My leadership didn't know what to do. I definitely didn't know what to do. I mean, I never dealt with an injury, you know, or seen anybody deal with an injury, especially as substantial as mine. Yeah, of course, you were in the hospital. Well, even after getting out of hospital, you know, we were still dealing with this the whole entire time until I got retired, you know, up until the point where they eventually put me, it's kind of like they were trying to out process me with an honorable discharge, but they saw that he has an injury, so we need to get him some, you know, stuff done, and then he put me on a casualty report, and which means, you know, I was very badly injured. That's basically all that means. And that put me on a another piece of or or track, shall I say, which got me connected to a headquarters in Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio, which is the Air Force Wounded Warriors Program. Now, when they saw my name pop up on the casualty report, they called me, and I'll never forget Connie Sanchez's voice, because I was like, What the heck is this? But she said, Hi, I'm Connie Sanchez calling from the Air Force winter Warriors Program, and I was trying to reach a key one Amy. And I'm like, You're who from where, because I had never heard of a program. Mm, hmm. So are you trying to in today's society, the scams that go on, you know? Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Who you? Who are you from? Where I'm I've been been in the Air Force for a while now. I've never heard of an Air Force. When the Warriors program, what are we talking about here, you know? And so she's doing her best to explain it to me and keep me from from being skeptical, as she says, I saw you pop up on a casualty report list, and we help airmen who have been wounded, ill or injured, you know, and and I said, Okay, well, what do you what are we we talking about? Like, what are mean you supposed to be talking about? She's like, Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I say, you gonna help me who? These are the words I've been looking for. You know, you gonna help me do what? Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I said, Where have you been for the last three years? And so anyway, that's how that whole thing got started. The ball started getting rolled to get   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 rolling so you were injured in 2017 Yeah. What was your attitude like after the injury? How? How did you move forward, or what? What were you thinking? Was it? Were you? Were you just totally devastated? Did you think you're going to just off yourself, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 21:38 Well, let me preface by saying this, I told you I had a traumatic brain injury. The damage to my brain is most severe in the frontal lobe. The frontal lobe houses a lot of emotions, and so yes, there was devastation, yes, there was sadness. Yes, there was, well, what am I going to do now? Yes, there was anxiety, there was anything you can think of anger because of the guy who hit me or pulled out in front of me. Shall I say? You know, there was so much that was going on at one time, because, you know, I'm stuck in the hospital for, oh, by the way, I was at UNC hospital. Okay, so that's pretty cool. Uh, that I'm a Tar Heel Fanning and I got, you know, Life Flight of the UNC hospital. But back to what I was saying, there's so much that was going on that one time, because I'm stuck at a hospital for two months now, granted, the first month I know nothing about. I was in a medically induced coma for the first month, so from May 5 until June the sixth. Don't ask me any question. You know what? I mean, I literally know nothing, because that's when I came to I came out of my medically induced coma, and so I'm just trying to figure out where I am. I cannot see already, like my vision was already gone. This is not a gradual loss, as some might think or might be wondering. I could not talk at the time because my jaw had been broken, so they wired it shut to keep me from damaging it any further then I didn't realize it yet, but I also could not smell, and the reason I didn't realize it is because I could breathe just fine. The only time I noticed I couldn't smell is when some is when somebody said, Man, you smell that? It smelled good? No, no, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. What What smells good, you know? Or if I you know, yeah, something smell bad. I don't smell it. What are you talking about? And so anywho, um, all of these different things are going through my mind, and even after I was told what happened to me, because I, of course, don't remember. I have no recollection of the accident. So after they told me what happened now, I am sitting there with these thoughts in my head for basically, I don't know, 12 hours because I stopped talking or communicating with anyone after that, and I just wanted to be alone. Because, as the saying goes, I just got hit with a ton of bricks. Yeah, you know, so I'm literally going through all the emotions, the sadness, the net, the potential, thought of never being able to see again, never being able to fly again, refill again, see my, my girlfriend, see my, my nieces, nephews, a family, uncle, anything possible. My, I don't even have kids. I never get to see them, you know. So it's. It was one of those things. And I, I mean, I took a lot of pride in the things that I saw, because it was things that a lot of people would never see. And this is also why, you know, on some of my social media, when I did do air refuelings and things of that nature, or or went to really nice locations, or even some that weren't so nice. I would take pictures and post it, because some people will never get to see this. Yeah, so I want you to live vicariously if you want to say it through me, they're like, man, that's cool. That video, that was awesome. You you did the other day. Hey, I appreciate it, man. Hey, it's my job, you know? It's just what it is. It's all part of the   Michael Hingson ** 25:49 game, you know. And all that was taken away   Kijuan Amey ** 25:53 Exactly. And so when I tell you I used to have and I wouldn't even be sleep, I would be daydreaming, and could see so vividly, like airplanes that I used to refuel, like the F 22 Raptor, the C 17, you know, it's it's things like that. The views I used to have looking down at the ocean from 20,000 feet in the air, looking down at the coastline, flying over the North Carolina and Virginia border, where you can see literally go from land to water to land, because there is a tunnel that goes underneath the water for ships to pass over, I could literally see that stuff from the air and to now go from not seeing that ever again, the thoughts that you sit with were just like beating me up alive. And so I finally had to come out of crazy mode, because that's what it makes you do. It makes you go crazy when you do think about all these thoughts. I had to come out of that mode, because if I didn't, I probably would have really went crazy. And I finally started asking all the questions to get answers, instead of trying to formulate my own questions that I had no answers to. And so that is what you know, got me the information and how the accident happened, where I was, where I was coming from. I do remember the day that I had before that, like not not may 4, but like what I was doing before I had the accident. I do remember all of that, but the thing is, when it came up to the accident, I don't know nothing about it, it's like it completely erased that entire moment. And that's a protective mode that your neurological system does for your brain. So it's so, it's so. It's so empowering that your your mind, can do something like that. But it's also a benefit, because I would never, I do not want to relive that dream or that nightmare, shall I say, over and over. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:22 But you made the choice to move on, to get out of the crazy mode. What? What caused you to do that? Just you decided enough was enough, and it's time to move on, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 28:39 No, I'm a man of answers. I need answers so. So when I think the military kind of did that to me too, but I've always been that guy who asked questions to you, even when I was younger, I was at, man, will you just sit down and we'll get to it, you know? So the military made it worse, because I became an instructor, and as an instructor, you tend to ask questions, so you can see what the person is thinking, how they're thinking, you know, making sure they're processing the information correctly. And so I am now doing that to everybody. I've put my instructor hat back on, and I'm going to asking questions that I need to know the answers   Michael Hingson ** 29:21 to so, how long after the accident, did you start doing this?   Kijuan Amey ** 29:25 Oh, no, this was a Maybe the day after I woke up from my medically induced coma. Okay, so, so the day I was informed of the accident, which was June the sixth, when I woke up out of my medically induced coma because I hate the panic button, basically not being a receipt or talk, you know what I mean? So, so I needed to figure something out, and that's when I asked the question, Well, what happened to me? Or what is the question I asked was, What? What is this motorcycle accident dream you guys are talking about? Because somebody, it was just people in my room talking, right? And they were like, Oh no, that's not a dream. That's what happened to you. And that was when I went into that shutdown period. And how long were you in that period? That was, that was the like, 12 to 16 hours or so that I didn't talk okay? And so the next day, June the seventh, is when I was like, hey, hey, I need to find something now. And that's what happened to me. What really happened?   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 So when that occurred? So now, on the seventh of June, did you just basically decide fairly quickly you got to move beyond from this, or did? Was it devastating for a while?   Kijuan Amey ** 30:44 Yeah, no, that's when the devastation and stuff really kicked in, because it made me say, What the heck, man, like, you know, somebody did this to me, you know, and I can't get back, none of that stuff. Yeah, that was taken away from me. I have all these different parts inside of me. I got metal plates in my head, screw rods and screws in my back, rods in both legs, a screw in my foot, like I even have two different sized feet now.   Michael Hingson ** 31:16 So how long was it before you started to decide you gotta go off and do something else with your life, and you're not gonna just let all of this rule you   Kijuan Amey ** 31:28 let's see when, when did that kind of transfer that it took me a little while, because I had to get acclimated to the new right life, you know, at first. So I think that would be around maybe I know I went on my first plane ride as a visually impaired person in 2018 So December of 2018 I went to my first blind rehab center. Where was that? In Tucson, Arizona. Okay, okay. The one for the V The VA has a couple of them. I can't remember how many it is, but that was the one I went to, because that was the first one to accept. I didn't want to go to the one that was closest to me. I've been to Georgia. It's okay. I wanted to go somewhere I haven't been, you know what I mean? And not no no shot at Georgia. I just wanted to go somewhere different, you know, yeah, and so that's what I did. And at first I wanted to go to Mississippi, but they took way too long to respond. And so anywho, I'm trying to get this done today, not next year, you know. And so I went there from December of 2018 until February of 2019 okay, I'm a pretty fast learner, and everything, when you go to those to the VA blind rehab centers, is at your own pace. You're fully embedded like you know, you're there the whole time. You got a room, you got everything, so they fully submerge you into this program, and you leave when you're ready. And so it only took me, and it wasn't even a full two months, is but, but I say two months because December to February, but anyway, I learned what I needed to learn, and I got out of there. I even learned stuff that I didn't know I wanted to learn, like copper tooling, wood working, you know, what's the other one? What's the leather? What's when you do leather? Yeah, but yeah, I I've even done stuff with leather, and that's so cool. It's pretty cool to do that stuff, but, yeah, I did all of that stuff, man. It's amazing. And, you know, come back home to show everybody what I learned, and they're like, Wow, you're like, a whole nother person. I said, Well, you know, I did pick up few things. And so once I got that under my belt, you know, the ability to know how to navigate, I still was not, like, really stable, because I hadn't. I hadn't, I didn't start lifting weights, or, you know, doing any like physical training, training, like legitimate training, until right before the pandemic, I was going to the YMCA and swimming, because, as we know, swimming is a full body workout, and so I was hitting the lap pool with a recreational therapist. And so what, man, that was the worst when that pandemic hit in March of 2020, yeah, because, trust me, I'll never forget it. That was when everything was looking up for me. I was like, Oh, this is so amazing. I'm I'm getting stronger, you know? I'm able to move a little bit better, get more confident in my life. And then, bam, shut everything down. I said, What? We can't go out. Wait. Everything's closed. Oh, okay, it'll only be two weeks. Oh, okay, that's okay. I could wait for two weeks. That's not that bad, yeah, but it'll be another month. Well, you said three months, six months, okay, I don't like this. So yeah, that's when everything started to come down. But then it went back up in 2021   Michael Hingson ** 35:25 Yeah, later in 2021 it started to lift   Kijuan Amey ** 35:28 Well, I mean, for me, for me in 2021 it was when I started actually working out by actually lifting weights again.   Michael Hingson ** 35:38 Now, were you still in the military? Swimming? Were you still in the military at this time I   Kijuan Amey ** 35:43 retired? Or was literally, uh, like, officially, medically retired, June 3, 2021, but again, I had not been to work since May. No, I understand 17, you know. So there's nothing that I'm doing at work. And when I did go down there, it was just kind of the just kind of a visit and hang out with those guys for the day.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 You mean, they wouldn't give you a long cane and let you go ahead and continue to refuel aircraft, because you could just find the the appropriate place with the cane. They   Kijuan Amey ** 36:15 they would have had to switch it to the left hand, because I'm left handed, and they and they make you do that with the right hand, that refueling side, I'm way better with my left hand. Well, but hey, I would have gave it a shot, but, but   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 you don't move, yeah, but you, but you, but you had to make along the way the decision that you were going to move forward, which is what it sounds like you, you were doing. And certainly by June of 2021, when you retired and and so on, you made the decision that you were going to do your best to continue to to advance and do something else with your world. Oh   Kijuan Amey ** 37:00 yeah, yeah, no. I mean, the pandemic actually was a part of good and bad. I mean, yes, it made me upset because they kept pushing the timeline and stuff back. But October of 2020, that's when I started writing my book. So that was in the pandemic. I started writing my book. You know, I learned how to use a computer again in September. And then once I got that down pack, hey, I'm going to the next thing. What's the title of the book? Don't focus on why me. From motorcycle accident to miracle. Got it Okay, so that's the name of it. Yeah, that's the name of it. And, excuse me, like I said, I wrote the book, or started writing the book October 2020, but I wanted to publish it in May of 2021, because of the accident. You know, the accident was in May. I wanted to publish the book in May. Well, it didn't quite happen like that, because timelines get pushed back, because you got to get an editor, you got to get a book formatter, you got to get it covered. Oh, it was taking a long time. And so anywho, it got published in June of 2021, which is my entire retirement month. So I was okay with it. I retired and I published a book, a self published, by the way, a book in June of 2021, which is a big month for me, so I celebrate both good   Michael Hingson ** 38:32 so you did that, yep. And were you? So you got retired in June. And when, what did you decide to do? Or when did you decide to find work?   Kijuan Amey ** 38:47 Well, I don't, I don't really consider what I do work, and I'll tell you why, so as we will from what you're about to find out, I am the proud founder, and I call myself a chief motivational officer, not a CEO of Amey motivation. Now Amey motivation, I do keynote speaking motivationally based most of the time, and then I also am a trusted mentor and a resilience coach. So I don't feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm actually doing a service and giving back, right? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I agree with you when I'm when I when I said a job, I kind of put it in air quotes, but anyway, I got you, but yeah, no, that's how I feel in my, you know, giving back. Because I almost feel like this is a type of ministry, a type of healing, a type of journey that not only benefits me, but benefits others. And it doesn't even feel like I'm working when I do this stuff. It just feels like I'm having a conversation. It feels like I'm building. It feels like I'm helping others, you know. And I. I couldn't even dare say that I feel like I'm working, and it's not even because I'm making good money. It's not because people are paying me, it's not because I travel to do this. It's because I really just don't feel like this is work, sure. Now, when I was in the military, that was work, you know, that felt like work. But this really does not. It's enjoyable, you know, and that's the beauty of it. And I love what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 40:34 But when did you decide to start motivating people?   Kijuan Amey ** 40:38 Well, that started back before the pandemic, too. And my first speech, like official, big speech, shall I say, anyway, was May of 2019, that's when I came out and told everybody, you know, kind of what, what happened to me, my story. Because, you know, everybody was hearing what happened to me on Facebook. I can't stand when I see a post of something bad happening to somebody on social media. Let me tell my story. And so that's what I did. And the title of that, that, uh, that speaking engagement, was, why not me? And everybody, I'm sure, was like, Wait, what the heck? Why is it called that? And I said, you're gonna have to come in to find out. You know, so anywho I told my story, and I do have a snippet of it on my website, Amy motivation.com   Michael Hingson ** 41:33 and Amy is spelled, a, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 41:36 A, M, E, y, right. So, you know, I did tell my story about just being the vulnerable side of what happened to me, how I feel, how I got through it, what I went through, what I was dealing with, you know, and man, when I tell you it was, you could literally hear a pin drop, and we were on carpet. Okay, so it was so quiet in there. Everybody was very attentive. It was a packed house, to say the least. There was not one empty seat, except for behind me, because, no, I didn't want anybody behind me. I wanted everybody to be out front. And so that was the only spot where there was an empty seat. I had people on the right side of me, people on the left side of me, people in front of me, everywhere. And so anywho you know, it was just an amazing speech and an amazing time, because a lot of people there, I knew some people I didn't, but a lot of people there I knew. And after they heard it and came up and talked to me after the speech, they were like, Man, I didn't even know you were going through that. I didn't even know this happened to you. I didn't even know that happened. I said, that's why I had to tell it, because what y'all are hearing on Facebook is partially true, and it's part of the story. It's not the whole story. Let me tell the whole story. So yeah, that's where all that started. I also did before that speech. I also did a couple of talks at high school, local high schools in Durham too. So my high school, Southern high school, my alma mater, another local high school called Jordan High School. So yeah, you know, just different things like that,   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 but you still ultimately were the one that you made the choice to do it. You made the choice to move on, which is so cool, because I can think of any number of people who, if they had the same sorts of things happen to them that happened to you, would give up, and you clearly did not,   Kijuan Amey ** 43:50 absolutely not. I think the hardest part for me is I can't sit down. Yeah, so, so me giving up is basically like me sitting down so and I can't do that. I'm like a person like the Energizer Bunny. As soon as you put a battery anywhere near me, I'm gone   Michael Hingson ** 44:09 well, and it's so much more rewarding to do that, I know for me after the World Trade Center attacks and so on, and we started getting calls asking me to come and talk about September 11 and what people should learn. My wife and I decided that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding, which is really probably the biggest issue, rewarding psychologically, was much more rewarding than selling computer hardware and managing a computer hardware sales team, which is what I did. So, yeah, it became also a a path and something that was worth doing. And I agree it, it is. It isn't work, right? Not. Not in the same way, but that is also in part because we've chosen to structure it and make it work that way, that it's not work.   Kijuan Amey ** 45:09 Yeah, yeah. You know what is. By the way, I love your story. I did hear it on another podcast that I listened to, who that I was interviewed by. And so the the so the day of the World Trade Center and the attacks, the plane that I used to fly on the KC 135 was actually the first plane to come check it out. That was the actually the first plane to come report what had happened, because it was one already airborne, nearby, and then when they look, they loop back around, and they were like, wait, the second one's on fire. Yeah. When did that happen? Like it was basically just like that. There was a   Michael Hingson ** 45:52 Air Canada flight. We met, well, I didn't. My wife did. Met the pilot. We were out in San Francisco, and I was doing a presentation, and she told me about it after the speech, but she said she was coming down on the elevator, and there was a pilot from Air Canada, and they got to talking, and she explained why she was there and what what we were doing. And he said that his plane was the first passenger plane over the world trade center after things happened. And as she said, the FBI must be, have become one of your favorite friends, right, or one of your best friends? And he said, Yeah, they sure did. But   Kijuan Amey ** 46:38 I don't want to get that knock,   Michael Hingson ** 46:40 but it's but it is a choice, and yeah, for for us, the other part about it was that the media got the story, and I feel so blessed, ironically, given how everybody likes to abuse reporters in the Media, but I got so many requests for interviews, and clearly it made sense to do what we could to try to educate and help people move on from September 11, so we accepted the interview requests. And for me personally, what I really learned is something, well, I kind of rediscovered and it got reaffirmed, was that, in reality, talking about something that happens to you like that is the most important thing, because talking about it gives you the opportunity to think about it and move on. And I got asked so many different questions by reporters, some intelligent, some not some in the middle. But the bottom line is that by talking to literally hundreds and hundreds of reporters, that made me talk about it, which was a very good blessing by the time all was said and done,   Kijuan Amey ** 47:54 right, right, instead of internalizing, yeah, no, listen, I also have to say, I'm glad you were in some shape, because what it was 78 floors, yeah, golly, hey, I don't want to hear you say 10, you know. But 78 floors,   Michael Hingson ** 48:15 it was going down. So that's pretty good. As I tell people, I do understand, but as I tell people, the next week, for the next week I was starting, actually the next day, I was stiff as a board. The adrenaline ran out. And, oh, it's horrible. And, yeah, you know, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and we were in a two story house we built so there was an elevator. And I swear, for the next week after September 11, I use that elevator a whole lot more than she did.   Kijuan Amey ** 48:43 Ah, that's funny,   Michael Hingson ** 48:46 but, but, you know, it was just kind of the way it was. But it is a choice, yes, and the bottom line is that we we move on you. You certainly had lots of things happen to you. You lost a lot of things. Did you ever get your sense of smell back? Or is it still gone?   Kijuan Amey ** 49:01 No, no. It was damaged during the reconstructive surgery on my face where they had to input the two plates. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So that's where that came from. So now it happened, shall I say? So   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 now getting back to something that we talked about at the very beginning, as you point out, you lost your site, but you didn't lose your vision. So tell me more about that, what that means to you, and why you say that. Because, as I said, that's something that that I've thought and talked about a lot. And of course, when thunder dog was written, we put that into thunder dog. And by the way, if you don't know it, Thunder dog and and all three of my books actually are on on Bard, so you can download them, or you can help a poor, starving author and go buy them, but, but, you know,   Kijuan Amey ** 49:50 come on, I think you will off. Mr. Steve Harvey, No, I'm joking. But anywho. So, as I mentioned before. Four, you know, when I was talking about my business, I don't necessarily feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm helping and and what I mean, the reason I even preface that is because when I say I may have lost my sight, but I didn't lose my vision. Sight, to me, is the physical, the vision is the mental. And so my mental was helping others, and it's always been that way, whether it was me playing sports, I had to help in some way, because I played team sports. Now, did I play any individual? No, I played all team sports. I did bowling, I did football, the basketball and ran track. All of those are team sports. And so you can roll in singles, but at the same sense, some point you're going to be doing either doubles or three or four person teams. So most of the time I was doing teams and doubles. But anyway, I was always doing some kind of helping. I grew up with siblings. I had to help somebody. I, you know, I grew up with without much, so we had to help each other. Hey, you don't know how to cook. Let me show you. You don't know how to fix this in the microwave. Let me show you, you know. And so, um, when I got to the military, I had to help, you know, when I was became an instructor, I was helping teach the people who are coming in new and all these different times I'm helping people. And now I get to a point where, not only I have to help myself get back to where I can have some kind of normalcy of life, but what really is a normal life? You know what I mean? Yeah, I had to help others understand that if I can make it through this, you can make it through what you're dealing with as well, and be there to help you.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 How about going the other way? Though you needed help too, yeah, yeah. And were you advanced enough in your thinking at the time that you were perfectly willing to accept help as well?   Kijuan Amey ** 52:12 Uh, no, I had my moments. Um, there. There's a chapter in my book I called, uh, it's called the depression set in, and that was when I was at one of my lower points, because not too long after depression, where the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal thoughts, luckily, didn't take me out and I never attempted, because I was able to think my way. I'm a very critical thinker, Problem Solver kind of guy, so I was able to think my way out of even having those thoughts again. And I said, Hey, man, this is not you. I don't know what it is, but it's not you. And so instead of me continuing to have those thoughts, I started asking people questions, what can I do? Because this is not like, it's not working, whatever life is not working for me, right? You know, and I'm a faith believer. So my grandmother, I was living with her at the time, and the first she's a faith believer as well. And the first thing she says is, you know, just pray. You know, just pray about it. I said, Grandma, we pray every day. Hear me clearly. I didn't say, some days we pray every day this obviously, and I'm not saying it's not working, but it needs something more. And so she was, well, I don't know what to tell you. And then eventually she goes in her room and thinks about it for a minute, and she said, Why don't you call your uncle? And I said, You know what? It's not a bad idea. And he, by the way, he's a senior pastor at his church, and so I said, that's not a bad idea. I didn't think to call my pastor because I didn't want to bother him. It's kind of one of those things you just felt like, I don't want him to think about that. I've had it on his mind, you know, stuff like that. And so I called my uncle, and I was telling telling him how I was feeling, and all I heard him say was, hold on key, I'm on the way. It was like eight o'clock at night, so for him to be like, Hey, I'm HOLD ON key, I'm on the way. That's what they call me Ki, my family. Some of them call me kiwi, but some call me Ki. But anyway, just as long as they don't call me late for dinner. And so I was like, Wait, he he's coming over here, you know? So I said, Okay. And I hung up the phone, and my grandma's like, Well, what did he say? I said, he said he's on the way. She's like, he went. I said, Exactly. That's what I said. And so she said, Oh Lord, well, let me put on some clothes. I said, let you put on some clothes. I need to put on some clothes. And. Yeah, and so anyway, we both get dressed somewhat. I wasn't, like, fully dressed. I just put on, like, some, you know, some basketball shorts, a shirt, yeah, you know, stuff like that. Because I'm thinking, we're just going to hang out at the house. He's going to talk to me. He's like, Hey, man, you want to throw on some pants and, you know, go out and put on some shoes. I said, Where we going? It's like, for a ride. I said, Okay, uh, yeah, uh, grandma, and she came back in there, she's like, Yeah, he's like, we're gonna go for a ride. Um, can you get my sweatpants from over this here? Because I knew where everything was in the room, and you know how it is, we know where everything is, where we put stuff. We know exactly where it is, right? And so I knew everything was get my sweat pants from this drawer and get my shirt from that drawer. And I said, No, it's the second drawer, not the third and stuff. So we I get dressed, we go for a ride, and he's talking. No, no, I'm talking first. He let me talk. He said, So key, tell me what's up. I said, I ran through the gambit of what I was going down with me, how I had the depressed thoughts, how I had some suicidal thoughts, but I had to bring myself back out of this, and I just could not figure out why this was coming over me like that. And he was like, Uh huh. And then, you know, I just stopped talking for a while. He said, You know what key I said, What's that? He said, I'm surprised it took you this long. I was like, What do you mean? He was like, Dude, I thought this would have happened to you a long time ago? He said, I've been waiting on this. And I said, that's crazy. Like I'm sitting there thinking, man, what the heck? You know? I'm thinking. People ain't thinking about me. Nobody's like, really, can't they see me smiling, laughing, giggling and all that stuff. So they're probably not even thinking about it, you know. But he was actually prepared. He's prepared for what I call the breakdown. And he said, Keith, I think the best thing you can do, and this is when we pulled over somewhere and start talking. He said, The best thing I think you can do with this situation is you're going to have to embrace and confront the issue. And I said, Can you explain that a little bit more? He's like, Yeah, yeah. He said, what it is, I think, is your the hope that we all have is for you to regain your eyesight. But the real realization is you don't have it right now. So I need you to live like you don't have it and hope that one day you'll get it. So don't keep dwelling on the hope part. Just live like you don't have it, and that way you'll keep moving forward versus thinking you're going to get it, because these thoughts are taking you down. Every day you wake up, every time you wake up from a nap, you think you're gonna open your eyes and see something that's gonna keep bringing you further and further down. I need you to embrace this thing and don't live in the denial phase of it happening. And that was when I started to come out like that was when I really started to gain some strength and a stronger mindset. Very wise words, oh, yeah, no, these are all he is, trust me, I'm just regurgitating them. I'm sorry. Oh, I said, yeah, these were definitely his words. I'm just regurgitating,   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 yeah, well, but, but certainly some, some good wisdom there. But you also then chose to follow, which is great, and probably whether he's surprised it took so long. It sounds like it all happened at the right time, because you are also willing to listen, which is great. So you you moved forward. When did you form your company?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:12 I mean, on paper, it was like two years ago, okay, um, but like I said, officially, I started speaking in 2019 right? I understand that, yeah. But so I always count 2019 because I really believe as soon as you start doing something, you're doing it, right, yeah, you understand and and the legality side of it, hey, you can have that. I don't care. But yeah. So that's how I view it.   Michael Hingson ** 59:44 So how did 10 years, if you will, even though some of it was less active, but how did 10 years in the military help prepare you for public speaking and what you're doing today?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:56 Oh, wow. I mean, well, first off, like I told you, the resilience coaching. Mm. Um, that's part of it, and that's all they used to talk about in the military, being resilient. We used to have, like, a training, I think it was every year, is it every year or twice a year, or something like that, but we used to have training on that stuff. Um, speaking, I I never really wanted to be a public speaker. I'll be honest. Um, I do have to stay that, say, say that, because I was not one who wanted to be in the spotlight. But if the spotlight found me, I'm okay with it. You know that that's that's what I was okay with. If it found me, that's fine, but I'm not trying to take over it. Don't put it on me, shine that light somewhere else and so, but what happened with that? Okay, yes, I took, I was in college for a while, and I did take a public speaking class with the instructor. Upgrade. You have to do public speaking, because you have to give presentations going through the pre training and the actual training, the certification training. So those were different. And also the the group sizes were different. Size you might be talking to one person you might be talking to an auditorium full. Mm, hmm. So there, there was that. And, you know? So these different things, I speak for different things at my church, you know? And so it started to kind of snowball again. Different things were building me up to that point, and as I got and you'll, you'll appreciate this here, as I got into my vision, or the eyesight loss, I understood that I have a superpower. Now, yeah, and I know people like a superpower. What are you talking about, man? So I can't see you so the the looks on your faces don't affect me, the fact that I'm looking at, or supposedly looking at, engaging an audience of one to 10 to 100 to even 1500 because I have spoken to over 1500 people before, it does not affect me, yeah? And that is like us to me, my superpower now. So that's how I've changed all of this to be fitting for me. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 yeah. Well, so let me ask you this. We've been doing this for a while, but I want to ask you one more question. Other people are certainly going through challenges. They're experiencing difficulties in their lives, and maybe some life altering kinds of situations. What kind of advice would you give them?   Kijuan Amey ** 1:02:54 Oh, the first one I can easily give you don't give up, and it's easily easy to give, but it's not easy to do. So I do have to say that you but if you keep that in the back of your mind, don't give up and you keep saying that to yourself, make it an affirmation. Put it on your vision board, put it in as a reminder in your phone, whatever you need to keep you grounded in that concept of, don't give up. And so that's one thing I would say. And for myself, I say this a lot, my situation, whether it's me being blind, me being having a traumatic brain injury, me having emotional, you know, flare ups, spinal cord issues or lack of mobility, what, whatever it is my situation that doesn't define who I am. I define who I am.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:56 So that's what I'll leave people with. And that is so true for everyone. Your your conditions don't define you. You've defined you, and you can choose how you want to be defined. Which gets back to, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. Yep. Well, key one, I want to thank you for being here. I hope that people take this to heart, and I hope it will generate more business for you, if people want to reach out to you, maybe for coaching or for speaking and so on. How do they do that? Yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:04:33 and I appreciate you saying that. So again, you can go to my website. That's Amey, motivation.com A, M, E, y, motivation.com you can also find my book on there. So don't focus on why me from motorcycle accident to miracle. You can also go on Amazon, Kindle Apple books as well as audible to find my book as well. So I do have audio versions out there for those who like to listen to their book. Books and for speaking engagements, feel free to click that book me link you can speak book me for a convention or conference or an event, a gala, high school, college, whatever you want me to come speak for. Come get me because I am all over it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 How many speaking events do you do a year.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:21 I don't count. Okay, if I try to count,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:24 you know what I mean? I know the feeling, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:27 I just do Hey, hey. That's, I think that's what Nike said. Just do it, man.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:31 Yeah, exactly right. Well, Kijuan, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are out there listening or watching. Really, we're grateful that you're here. I hope that what we've talked about today not only inspires you, but it gives you some good life thoughts that you can go use. Because certainly, everything that we got to discuss today is relevant, not just if you are having a challenge in your life, but it's something that is important for all of us. Life lessons like these don't grow on trees, and I hope that you'll enjoy them and use them. Reach out to key one. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, n.com/podcast, love you to please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We love your reviews and your thoughts, so please do that, and as I also love to do, and that is to ask you, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on this podcast. And Kijuan you as well, love to get your thoughts. Feel free to reach out, introduce us to anyone who you think ought to be a guest. We're always looking for more people who want to come on and and share their stories and help us all become more unstoppable than we think we are. But again, really appreciate your time today, everyone and Kiju, especially you. Thanks for being here. This has been wonderful.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:07:15 Thank you again. I really appreciate you having me on to tell my story.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:22 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Vanessa et Florence, 2 des freelances dont je suis les aventures cette année dans la série En Route, ont eu un déclic par rapport à la prospection. Elles ont compris que prospecter, c'était créer une relation (en non, vendre direct, dès la prise de contact). Si tu savais mon pygargue à tête blanche combien j'étais contente d'entendre ça (toi aussi, tu pourras découvrir leur cheminement dans l'épisode de En Route de demai). Dans cette MM, je t'explique comment changer la façon dont tu abordes la prospection. À très vite, Marine

Join Brian and Mike Cohn as they unpack the five essential pillars that take Agile from “just the motions” to meaningful, measurable impact. Plus, get a behind-the-scenes look at their revamped course built for real team transformation. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined by longtime collaborator and Agile thought leader Mike Cohn for a deep dive into what really makes Agile stick. They explore the five foundational pillars—mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team—and share stories of what happens when teams get them wrong (like obsessing over story point math or demoing a copyright update in a sprint review). Along the way, they introduce the newly available Working on a Scrum Team public course and explain why it’s designed for entire teams, not just isolated roles. Whether you're new to Agile or knee-deep in transformation, this episode will help you rethink how to build an Agile approach that actually works. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mike Cohn #80: From Struggling to Success: Reviving Agile Teams with Mike Cohn Scrum Team Roles and Responsibilities Working on a Scrum Team Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in, Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. Thanks for joining us. I'm with you, as always, Brian Milner. And today, I have the one and only Mike Cohn back with us. Welcome in, Mike. Mike (00:12) Thanks, Brian. Good to be here. Brian Milner (00:14) Always happy to have Mike on the show and really appreciate Mike making time to come on. Wanted to have Mike on because there's some things Mike's been talking about recently that are really interesting and people have been asking a little bit about this and I thought maybe it'd be just a good opportunity to talk through some of the stuff that Mike's been writing about. I know you spent, Mike, a lot of time helping teams to not just do Agile but to really get solid results from it. to see impact from it. And I know the topic you've been talking about recently is sort of these five pillars of supporting real agile improvements, the mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team. So I thought maybe we could just dig in and drive through those and maybe learn a little bit about those as we go. Obviously also to talk a little bit about the exciting new course that's being launched here, the working on a Scrum team course, because I know that was originally just for private classes, right? And now it's being open to the public. Mike (01:23) Yeah, we've done working on a Scrum team as a private class for probably 20 plus years. It's been kind of our main offering to private clients. But we're hearing from a lot of people that they have one team and they can't really get a private class approved with the budget and such. So what we're doing is going ahead and making that course available as a public course. So two people from your company, five people from another company all in the same class the way we've done our certified courses for decades. And so we're going to start offering this as a public course. And the exciting thing there is that it's really meant to be a team-based class, where things like Scrum Master training, great class, but it's really meant for the Scrum Master, right? And working on a Scrum team is really designed, and you and I helped you and I design this course together, but it's designed to be something that is a whole team training, right? So good for anybody on a team. Brian Milner (02:16) Yeah, yeah, it's been really great teaching those in the private classes and I'm excited to think about the public being able to come in and take that now. Let's talk a little bit about these pillars and, I think people are gonna be really intrigued by the concept here. The first one is mindset, I think, and just wanna start there and say, what does it actually mean to... think Agile and what is the found, why is that kind of the foundation for successful transformations? Mike (02:43) Remember the kind of the early days of agile and there was a lot of conversation about could you be agile without understanding the principles, right? If you just did the practices, were you agile? Other people were saying, no, you have to start with the principles, right? And so do you start with principles? Do you start with practices? And I remember these early debates and they often devolved into a discussion of the karate kid movie, right? Remember that one, right? And, you know, can you just wax on? Brian Milner (03:12) Ha Mike (03:12) for long enough, just do the practices. And then all of a sudden, your karate instructor or your agile coach is, OK, you're agile. And it's like, wait, all I know how to do is wax a car, right? And so there were these discussions about practices versus principles. And I was kind of always on the side where you better understand the principles to do this. Just knowing the practices, waxing on all day, is kind of just going through the motions. And so you have to understand the principles. And the idea that I wanted was that if a team truly understood all of the principles underneath Agile, I don't just mean just the manifesto, but all the principles that are there from Lean, from Kanban, from everything, that if you really understood those, you'd kind of invent the practices, right? You do those and you go eventually to go, hey, we should probably meet every day. Or hey, if we tested first, that might be a really good thing. Brian Milner (03:57) Yeah. Mike (04:05) So you'd invent the practices if you really had that type of agile mindset. And so for me, when we're working with organizations to get them truly agile, and I don't mean like more agile than less agile, but agile in a way that's going to stick, you got to change mindsets, right? You've got to do more than just the wax on. So people have to get the mindset. Brian Milner (04:27) Yeah, I love that. I know that I've experienced some things in the course of working with people that's it's sort of like you, if you're not on the same page with the principles, then you start to talk through the practices and you run up against a problem. And really what you find out the core of it was, well, we weren't aligned on really the principle behind this. So why would I want the practices then, right? ⁓ Mike (04:49) Yeah. Well, that's where you also end up then with a lot of team debates about things, right? Because you're arguing about the practice. if you'll say you and I are arguing about the benefit of some practice, if we agree on the principle, we might just have different views on it. But deep down, we'll probably agree on some practice, or we might find an alternative one. But if you don't agree on the principles, you end up with a lot more of these kind of annoying. mean, team debates are great. I mean, I love. Brian Milner (04:54) Yeah. Mike (05:12) you know, having a team debate, arguing stuff like that, but not about pointless things, right? And not without some sort of foundation. They just kind of get in the way. It's just frustrating for everybody. Brian Milner (05:21) Yeah. Well, I'm kind of curious, what kind of signs or signals do you think teams should look out for to kind of clue in and let them know that what might actually be going on here is more of a mindset issue? Mike (05:36) think sometimes it's when you hear the appeal to authority, right? Somebody says, you know, well, we got to do it this way because the scrum guide says, right? Or the one that annoys me is we have to do it this way because Mike Cohn says, ⁓ you know, that was like, no, I, somewhere else also said, think, right? Don't just, you know, don't just, you know, blindly do story points or something. Cause I say they're a good thing. I want you to think too. Brian Milner (05:50) You You Mike (06:01) And so I think that kind of appeal to authority when teams are debating things. It's where we also see teams who think they're agile because they do a set of practices. We use a particular agile tool, so we must be agile. We do daily meetings. We must be agile. And those are not the things that make you agile. Those are artifacts of being agile. If you're agile, you're going to meet a lot. You're not going meet a lot, but you're going to talk a lot. Um, and so those are the artifacts of behaving in an agile way. And so I want to understand why we're doing those things. So I look for those kind of appeals to authority. Um, you know, emphasis on that type of stuff in an argument talking about how this is the right way saying there's only one right way to do something. Brian Milner (06:49) Yeah, yeah, that's great. How does working on the Scrum team deal with this? How does that address it? Mike (06:55) Well, one of the things we do, it was actually one of my favorite exercises. We do this exercise at the start of the class where we ask people to kind of map out how the organization talks about certain adsel principles and then how does the organization behave. And so for example, if a company says, people are our greatest asset, and then they treat people like dirt, we've got this kind of problem between what we say and what we do. And so I like to kind of map this out. And so we do this with the principles in the Agile Manifesto. And once we map those out and we start to see things that we say we value, but we don't behave that way, really helps us understand if we've really embraced that mindset. Or are we just doing things because an Agile coach told us to, or a boss told us to, or we did it that way in our prior company. Those are all bad reasons to do something. Brian Milner (07:48) Y eah. So this is great. So I agree. The mindset's really foundational. And there is this symbiotic relationship between mindset and practices, which came first and which comes first, as we talked about. I know a lot of teams get stuck doing Agile, though, in really only name only. So when we talk about practices, what makes the difference between going through the motions? Mike (08:00) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (08:11) and actually doing things that work. Mike (08:13) Well, practices is kind of our second pillar, right? You have to have the mindset, right? But you also have to have the practices that come from having that mindset. so, again, I try to think of that team on a desert island, right? And they're isolated from the world. They've never talked to anybody, but they have an agile mindset. What practices are they going to invent, right? And I think those are kind of the core practices. We see a lot of problems with as an example, teams that misunderstand sprint planning. And I know when I first started teaching about sprint planning, I'd have a slide up there to have a picture of a sprint backlog. And the sprint backlog listed tasks like code this, design this, test this. And then there were estimates next to code this. It's going to take four hours testing. It's going to take three. And so we were able see all these numbers and think the point of a sprint planning was these numbers. And Even in the early days of this, I was always saying, no, it's not about those numbers. It's about deciding what product backlog items you can pick. if taking a, I don't even want to call it an estimate, but taking a wild guess about, it probably can take four hours to code. If that helps you decide how many backlog items you can commit to, great, put those numbers up there. But it was never about the numbers. And it's one of the most common problems that I see with teams in sprint planning is they get obsessed with How many hours did we bring in? How many points did we bring in? And I remember one team I worked with where we did sprint planning. Having those estimates were helpful for them on their sprint back. They were helping. And we finished the meeting. And we're using Google Sheets in a meeting to do this. We've got a row with the estimates in there. And as we start to wind down the meeting, I deleted that column that they'd spent so much time talking about. They're all kind of pissed off at me. Why'd you delete that? We spent all this time talking about it. I said, because we got the benefit, right? You got the benefit of those numbers. The benefit isn't a week from now remembering that you said five hours, because it's going to take what it takes. The benefit was the discussion that it led to of can we take more or are we already full? So I see teams get obsessed with that. This is one example, but that's one of the problems with sprint planning as a practice. Brian Milner (10:25) Yeah. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. And that's one of the things I know I've talked about with people going through the course is sort of understanding the purpose behind the things. Just going back to, know, harkening back to what you said about, don't just do it because someone told you, you know, understand why the purpose behind it. And, know, otherwise we, I'm sure we've all had that experience before where someone just tells you to do something and says, you know, why? Cause I told you so, you know, that, that doesn't, that's not very convincing. Mike (10:52) Thanks, Mom. Brian Milner (10:53) Right, right, thanks mom. Yeah, not very convincing, but it's much more convincing when they can tell you, well, no, you do this because this is what we're trying to do. And I think you're right, that makes all the difference there. ⁓ Mike (11:05) It just, don't know anybody that responds well to being told what to do, right? My instant reaction is no, right? mean, you it could be, you know, a really, you it could be a really good thing. Eat more vegetables, you spend more time outside. No, right? Don't tell me what to do. So. Brian Milner (11:09) Right. Right. Yeah. It's almost like our default response is no until you convince me. Are there other common practices? We talked about sprint planning. Are there other kind of practices you see teams struggle with? Mike (11:28) Yeah, yeah, for a lot of people. think a huge one is product backlog refinement. I don't know what a better word would be than refinement. refinement is about making the backlog better. It's not about making it perfect. And I see teams that get stuck on backlog refinement and feel like they have to resolve every open issue, that everything has to be tiny and answered and buttoned up before we can start a sprint. And that's not the case. For me, the goal in refinement is to make sure things are small enough and sufficiently well understood. I don't want to bring in a backlog that's bigger than my velocity. If our velocity is 25, I don't want bring in a 50-point story. how about the problems of a 50-point story anyway? But I don't want to bring in some massive epic like that into a sprint. And so refinement is about making it small, making sure it's sufficiently well understood. Sufficiently well understood, not perfectly. And so Brian Milner (12:18) Yeah. Mike (12:28) The problem is these teams, and I know you've seen this, but teams who get in there, want to resolve every open issue. It's like, no, we can resolve that during the sprint. If we think about the goal and planning to make sure we know what to bring into the sprint, not too much, not too little, we're fine just enough that you're at that point. Is the button blue or red? Who cares? If it's a log in story, we're going to lock people out after some number of failed attempts. Who cares how many? Figure that out during the sprint. If it's five or three or eight, who cares? Figure that out later. So I think refinements won. Another big one would be reviews, ⁓ where sometimes teams demo too much in a sprint review. And they feel like they have to justify their existence, show everything you did during the sprint. And the most egregious example of that was this was a handful of years ago. But I literally remember a team showing Brian Milner (12:58) Yeah. Yeah. Mike (13:18) how they had updated the copyright notice on the footer of the web page, know, copyright, you know, whatever year our company, right? And it's like, my God, you didn't need to show that to stakeholders, right? We all either know there's a copyright notice on the bottom of the web page or we've seen one before. I don't need you to bring it up and scroll down to it. Now only took 15 seconds of the meeting, but that was 15 seconds of people's lives. They were never going to get back. you know, show stuff that you need feedback on, right? If you'd... Brian Milner (13:41) Right. Mike (13:45) You fixed a bug and you fixed it only way it could be fixed. Mention it perhaps, but you don't need to show it, right? Brian Milner (13:51) Yeah, yeah, know teams I've been on often it's just it's suffice it to have a list sometimes and just say here's a list of things if you want to know more about these come talk to us but we're move on to the stuff you care about. Mike (14:02) Yeah, I always have like a will show, will not show list. you know, I often, if I'm writing the meetup present, that'll put that up on Zoom or, you know, show it on a screen if we're in person. And often somebody wants to see something that's on the will not show list. Or they just want me to describe what bug was that again? What was that? You know, and I'll explain it really quickly. But if nobody wants to see it, don't bother showing it. So. Brian Milner (14:26) Yeah, I know we talk about these scrum practices quite a bit in the working on the scrum team class, but if someone signed up to take this class, what can they expect to hear or what can they expect to learn about these practices in the course? Mike (14:39) Well, I think one of the things that you and I did together in creating the newest version of the course was to look at what do you actually need to practice doing, and it's feasible to practice doing in a classroom setting, versus what should you just kind of talk through. And not everything needs to be practiced to get the hang of it, right? Everybody in the world has taken something big and split it up into smaller things before, right? I need to make. spaghetti dinner tonight. What do need to buy? Right? OK. Well, that's that's that's test decomposition by noodles, by sauce, by tomatoes. Let's make it from scratch. Right. By some garlic. Right. So everybody in the world has done decomposition. We've broken a big thing into small things. And I remember, you know, iterating over I'm still on sprint planning, I guess. But I remember iterating over exercises in sprint planning and in courses over the decades by now. And I would have one where you're planning a party for your kid, break it down into tasks. It's like, nobody learns anything from this. And so that's one where I'd rather say, OK, this problem occurs in sprint planning. How could you solve it? Other things like, let's say, splitting user stories or splitting job stories, that's a skill worth practicing together, getting feedback on. And so those type of things we try to practice in the course. other things we just talk about. mean, I'm curious on your thoughts on that. What do you think about some things being worth practicing, some things worth being better talked about? Brian Milner (16:01) Yeah, I agree. I agree fully. it's, it's, you know, there's some things, it's kind of like what you said before, there's some things that's not worth spending the time on, and it's better to just have a discussion and move on. Mike (16:13) Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's one of the things we always talked about. We always talked about return on investment of the exercise. What's the return on the exercise? And if you're going to have a one hour exercise, cool. One hour exercise. But it better have a pretty healthy return because that's a lot of time in class. And so what's the return on exercise? Is this worth a practice? Is it worth just a discussion? And if we can discuss two hard problems and give people advice on two common problems, they're probably going to face. Brian Milner (16:21) Yeah. Mike (16:41) Might be better than spending 20 minutes practicing something that they've probably done before. Brian Milner (16:45) Yeah, I completely agree. Let's move to the third pillar then, because I know this is a big one, just thinking and talking about the roles. And just as far as communication issues are concerned, even outside of Scrum, I know that's part of the big problem with teams and organizations just not being clearly defined about who does what and who's responsible for each thing. So those misunderstandings are really common failure points. ⁓ Mike (17:09) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (17:10) How do you see teams getting that wrong and how's that derailing a Scrum team? Mike (17:15) Well, think we see it all the time on Scrum teams between Scrum Master and Product Owner and even the development team, right? Who does what? I was responding to some comments on LinkedIn this morning on some post I'd made last week and somebody had some comments. And it had to do with whether the Scrum Master or Product Owner does something. And it was interesting because in the comments on that post, I... I don't remember which one it was, but I shared a certain perspective. I feel pretty strongly that I have it right. I mean, I this is how we do it. But there were other people saying the opposite, right? And so, you know, these are people that are probably fairly experienced with Scrum, if they're following me on LinkedIn and feel comfortable commenting on a post, probably feel comfortable with it. And so there's a lot of confusion about what role does what thing. And I don't think this is something where the Scrum guy is going to have the answers for you. I think it's, I mean, you can look at the Scrum guy, oh, this. Here's my starting point answer, but we always want to play to people's strengths, right? And if you've got a scrum master who's got a lot of skill in one area, maybe they shift a little work from the PO to themselves, right? With the PO's permission, right? And the opposite, right? Between maybe PO and team. So it's fine to have default starting positions on who does what, but you always want to play to people's strengths. So I think PO scrum master, I think we see it with project managers and scrum masters, roll confusion on those type of roles as well. Brian Milner (18:38) Yeah, completely agree. A lot of those roles that are not named Scrum team roles and how they interact with the team, that's often a source of confusion as well. What are maybe some signs or symptoms that teams might be having confusion or problems in this area that maybe they don't even recognize or realize they're having an issue with roles? Mike (18:59) Any sort of conflicts, right? You know, you and I arguing over which one of us should do something. The other one would be kind of the opposite, which would be like a dropped ball. I was watching some YouTube video. I love baseball. I was watching some YouTube video the other day of like missed catches or something like that. And some team hit a baseball way up in the air and it was landing near three players, right? Three players are all looking at it. Brian Milner (19:12) You Mike (19:23) One guy waves the other two off, he's going to catch the ball and he must have been blinded by the sun because he's like six feet from the ball when it lands on the ground, right? And, you know, if we have a responsibility to catch the ball, run this meeting, right, right the backlog, the kids dropped, right? And so I think either arguing over who does something, two of us trying to do the same thing or neither of us doing it. I don't mean trying to get out of the work, right? All three players have been happy to catch the ball, but I think you've got it. You think I've got it, right? Those type of things are pretty good signs. think getting clarity around these roles can really optimize how a team works. And I think a really key thing here is that it changes over time. So I'll go back to my example of maybe the Scrubmaster has some skills that can help the product owner early on. Because maybe the product owner is new to the company. The product owner doesn't know the product as well. So they might rely on the Scrubmaster for guidance on things. Well, a year from now, we might shift responsibilities a little bit because now the PO is the expert on all things related to the product. So it's not like we want to establish clarity on roles one time and leave it forever. It's going to change. We get a new tester on the team, things might change. Product owner moves. It's going to change again. So we need to realize these responsibilities are dynamic. Brian Milner (20:39) Yeah, that's a great point. Your point about baseball just made me think about how, when you watch any youth sport in the world, when you go watch your kids play a sport, what's the one thing you always hear people scream from the sideline? Talk to each other. Call the ball. Well, that too. That too. Ump your blind. Those kinds of things. Well, let's talk a little bit about Mike (20:52) I thought you were going say, put my kid in. Brian Milner (21:00) I know this course addresses the roles and how would you say this course really helps address that issue of role confusion? Mike (21:07) think a big part of it is that we designed it to be for everybody on the team, right? Suppose you send a scrum master to a class, and it's a great class. Scrum master is going to back to the certain set of impressions about their role. Product owner goes to an equally good class about the product. They might have different impressions. Even if they took the course from the same instructor, they're hearing it a little differently. They're hearing it through their filters, right? And so when they're in a course together, there's more opportunities to clarify their understanding about those things, especially in the classes designed as we did with this one to bring out some of those differences. So I think the course helps with that. we've also designed it to mention the rules we haven't talked about, like managers and things like that. Brian Milner (21:53) Yeah, yeah, I think those are so important. And there's a lot of great discussions that come out when we have those topics. ⁓ Let's talk about the fourth pillar then, teamwork, because this, I think, builds really well on what we just talked about. And the idea that there's actually, Scrum is a team sport. ⁓ So beyond just normal human personality conflict type issues, what do you see that gets in the way of teams actually Mike (21:58) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (22:18) working as a team. Mike (22:19) think ego is probably one, right? I can do everything better, just leave me alone. There's an old book that says basically, beware of a lone developer in a room, right? You know, it was referring to the developer who wants to close their door and say, I'll it done in a month, trust me, right? And one of the companies I worked with, and this one's going back like 15 years ago, but it was a really good story. Brian Milner (22:36) Yeah. Mike (22:43) is they would literally grab one unit of work. Each person on the team would grab a unit of work and take anywhere from three to 12 months to do the thing. So they were big things, but the person would do everything on it. They'd coded, tested everything. And the organization was putting out very little because of this. When they moved to Scrum in the first year, by their estimate, they said they delivered 540 % more work. over five times the amount of new features delivered. And that was through the collaboration, through the short iterations, those type of things. But it was about getting people to collaborate more. So I think there's huge opportunities to do that. One of the problems I see is when we don't overlap work. If we think about that organization I just described, you grab your thing, you're done in six months. I grab mine, I'm done in seven months. If we'd work together on those things, what's not make us any faster? No faster. But you and I could have worked on your one thing and been done in three months. OK, we're delivering value in three months, right? And so one of the things I look for a lot is how much teams are overlapping work, right? And if we're not overlapping work, there's huge opportunities to improve at that. I'll a little example of this. One of my favorite restaurants is, I don't know, barely call it a restaurant. It's a fast food deli. It's called Jimmy John's. Have you been to Jimmy John's, Yeah. Yeah, there's one near my house where I can go there and the wine will be out the door. Right. And you know, normally you see a wine out the door and it's like, crap, I'm going somewhere else. Right. These guys are so fast. They're so fast. When I get to the front, I place my order. I play this little game of can I fill up my cup? You know, I get an iced tea and they give me an empty cup and can I go fill up ice and put the tea in before they hand me my sandwich? And it's about 50-50. Right. It doesn't take long to fill up your iced tea. But the way they do that is the overlap work. As soon as I order my Italian club sandwich, somebody's already got the bread open, somebody's got a slab of meat they're ready to drop on there, somebody else has their hands over the vegetables and they're dropping the vegetables on there, and then a fourth person wraps it up. And so like four or five people touch my sandwich. Hopefully their hands are clean, but four or five people touch my sandwich as opposed to like most delis where I go and it's like you watch one person plod along making the sandwich, right? Overlap work is huge. Brian Milner (25:07) Yeah. Yeah, this episode sponsored by, no, just kidding. Use code Mike Cohn when you go to, no, just kidding. Yeah, I agree. And yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with Jimmy John's. Probably too familiar. ⁓ Yes, yeah, no, that's, I think that's part of their shtick is that they're, you know, they're known for being fast. So yeah. Mike (25:10) You Is yours just as fast? Yeah. Yeah. They call it Freaky Fast. They actually have a competition. I've seen YouTube videos of this where they get like the best teams at various restaurants race, right? And so they have like the Jimmy John sandwich making Olympics or something, but it's a skill. Brian Milner (25:36) wow, wow, yeah. You should pair that up with the hot dog eating challenge in some way and see if we could have a team sport going there. ⁓ Mike (25:48) Well, that's a good point because think about the hot dog eating. That's one guy, right? That's Joey Chesnett shoving hot dogs down. The Jimmy Johns is a team. They get the best crew at a restaurant and it's a team, right? How fast can the team go? Not how fast can one guy make a sandwich, right? Brian Milner (25:51) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. So what are some tips? What are some ways that you can really unite a team, especially those new teams? Because that's the fascination point for me is, how do you take this group of humans that really don't know each other and haven't worked together in the past and unite them together and have them gel as a team? How do you do that? Mike (26:21) I'll give you a couple. One, I think having really crisp sprint goals helps. So we all know exactly what we're trying to get done in the sprint. We don't lose sight of that because sometimes in the middle of a sprint, you lose sight of it. And you get myopic and you just focus on a list of tasks. And I'm going to say that it's probably similar to the team doing sprint planning and just getting them assessed with the numbers. It's not about the numbers. It's not about the tasks. It's about the backlog items that lead to some goal. So crisp sprint goals help. That's a hard phrase. Crisp Sprinkles helps. The other one I'd say is having a shared vision about where you're headed over a little bit longer term. Probably the biggest change to the Scrum Guide ever that I've liked is the inclusion of a product goal. And that was something I'd been talking about forever. mean, literally since I started doing Scrum was that sprinkles are great, but they're pretty short, right? You want to have something bigger. Brian Milner (26:52) It is. Mike (27:14) And so I like having product goals that are a few months out there. And one of the things I like doing for product goals is have teams do something like write a press release that describes their goal or create a vision in some way, write a review that you want to see come out on the App Store, Play Store, and a magazine. And one of my clients made software and they were reviewed by a major magazine and they were given an editor's choice runner up award. And they actually estimated that being runners up for that was probably worth about $10 million. First place, first time was worth about $10 million a year to them. And so they decided to get serious about this and they wrote a review. Their scrum master, she was actually combo scrum master product owner, Erin. She had the team write a review and she said, let's go earn this review. And I literally remember the email I got from her three months later. It was because it was Halloween night. I just like, you know, brought in the candy from outdoors. We're done trick or treating. And I checked my email. I a three word email from her from Erin. said we did it. And the magazine had let her know, hey, we're reviewing you. be out on, you know, like Tuesday's edition. And the review had quotes in there that were from their vision review, right? The things that they had wanted to achieve. Brian Milner (28:22) Ha ha. Mike (28:35) And that team had just really jelled around that and just became so much more productive and collaborated so much better because of that shared vision. Brian Milner (28:43) Yeah, that's amazing. getting back to the course then, I know in the course we're trying to kind of some of those collaboration muscles. What are some of the ways that the course helps to build that? Mike (28:56) think one of the key things that we're doing, and I'm excited about this, is that we're, you know, we of course use Zoom breakout rooms, right? You you go talk about this, we'll see you in eight minutes or something like that. And for this course, we're doing something where a group of three or more, when they register, can have a private breakout room. And this to me is exciting because people get the benefit of having a private breakout room. They can have sensitive discussions if they want. They can talk very specifically about. you know, what do we do about our jerk product owner? mean, whatever it is, right? You know, they can talk about their specific issues, yet have the context of a broader class. Because I think in one of the benefits of any public class is hearing how other teams are doing things. And sometimes that's because you get a good advice, you know, how did you solve that problem? We have that problem. Other times, it's just feeling that you're not alone in the world. they've got that problem too, right? And they don't have any solution for me, but I know I'm not alone in the world with this. And so I like these private breakout rooms for three or more. I think it's a novel thing we're doing with this class. And it's with the intent of combining the best of both worlds of private and public training for this. I'd the other thing is probably consistency, having everybody on the team hear the same message, having those discussions with an experienced instructor like you or me in the room to provide guidance when they have questions. know, go back to the role clarity, right? You know, they can talk about it and they're there. Then they're back in the main room with you or me and we can kind of answer questions. So I think that consistency will be huge as well. Brian Milner (30:25) Yeah, yeah, I love that idea of the private private breakout rooms that that's that's gonna be huge for a lot of people I know. ⁓ Mike (30:31) I'm excited to try it with this. This will be the first classes we do that for. I'm excited about it. Brian Milner (30:36) Yeah, yeah. Well, let's bring it home then and talk about the fifth pillar because the fifth pillar is really interesting as well. It talks about support beyond the team and teams can only do so much. Every team struggles when they're not supported well. And there's lots of studies that show leadership support is one of the biggest hurdles or obstacles to the adoption. Mike (30:46) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (30:59) What does that support look like from outside the team and how can a team influence that? Mike (31:06) Yeah, if you're trying to be agile and your HR group has quarterly reviews of personnel that are all based on individual performance and has nothing to do about teamwork in there, it's going to be hard to focus on collaboration. So we have to kind of fix these issues. I think what we have to do here is to have team members educate those outside the organization. And we have information that we share about, you here's how to talk to a boss that's maybe mandating deadlines, things like that. And so we try to coach people through having some of those challenging conversations. And one of things I want teams to do is kind of become an example of what good agile looks like. And if you have a team that's excelling with agile and they're doing it from a kind of principles first, that mindset first approach. You're going to see other groups look at that and let's say the marketing group. They're going to look at that go, hey, that's an interesting way to work. I wonder how we could do that, right? And it's going look different for a marketing group than a tech team. the mindset is going to be the same. Principles will still be the same. And so when we get teams to do really well with this, other parts of the organization start to get interested. And then they stop being as much in our way. Brian Milner (32:20) Yeah. I know one of the most important aspects here and that we talk about is, is that you don't need to, to wait, right? If you're the team level, you don't have to just sit around and wait for the organization to make changes. you, you have opportunities to make changes as well. So how does that happen? How's the team change, you know, bring about those changes that, improve the agile process, the results. Mike (32:42) I think that's by being the example so that people see it. I think it's by having those conversations. You know, one of the things that we'll get is, you know, it's so common is the product owner that wants to change their mind all the time. I was reading something, I guess this is in our Agile mentors community, I think is where it was, but it was about the, you know, the product owner who said his favorite thing about Agile is that he can reprioritize every week. ⁓ And it's like, you can, you know. Brian Milner (33:05) Hmm. Yeah Mike (33:10) I'm not sure it's good. And I think about that, a team gets momentum, right? And you're working on a certain feature. Next sprint, it would be nice to work in that same area of this system, right? Your head's there. Just kind of keep going a little bit. And I've often described this as like, let's say you're working on three backlog items that are in a certain area of this system. Let's make it concrete. Let's say it's the spell checker in Microsoft Office, right? And you do three backlog items related to the spell checker this sprint. Next sprint, maybe your top priority is not more spell checker stuff, but maybe items, I don't know, 25, 26, and 27 on the backlog are still in the spell checker. You know what? It might be better to do those. There are probably two or three sprints away. Let's bring them into this sprint. Just get them done while my head's into spell checking. And so getting product owners or stakeholders to stop doing that, one of the ways that I like to talk about doing that is using an example of ordering a meal at a restaurant. I can order, let's say, the chicken entree. And then as the waiter is taking the orders around the table, I change from chicken, no, bring me the fish. Not a big deal. The waiter is going to cross off chicken and write down fish. If the waiter goes away, brings me back my salad, and I change my mind then, I say, hey, bring me the fish. Might not be a big deal. It's going to be a big deal if I've already taken three bites of the chicken. right? Or if he brings me the chicken. So yeah, we can change our mind, but there's a cost, right? And we want to educate stakeholders about that cost. They don't overdo it. Brian Milner (34:31) Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of the leaders and the organization, managers, leaders, do you think this course is appropriate for managers and leaders to attend as well? you feel like they might need to in order to really have this be an impact? Mike (34:55) Yeah, that's a good question. Is it appropriate? Yeah, I think it's appropriate. When we do this privately, we've had plenty of leaders and managers attend. I think it's great. I don't think that's required because they're not on the Scrum team. You said the name of the course is working on a Scrum team. And so they're not on the Scrum team. They benefit by knowing more how their Scrum team works. But I think what we found is that having just a key subset of people who hear the same message work through the training together, and then go back to the organization. That's enough to bring the passion, conviction, and skills that we want. So we don't truly need leaders. They're great. I would never talk a leader out of going, but I wouldn't. If I were a team and I could take the class this month or with my leader next month, I would just get the class done, right? And educate the leader afterwards. Brian Milner (35:41) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good plan. All right, well then we've made our way through the five pillars and for people who have come this far with us and are at this point, if they're listening and they're recognizing some of these problems we've been talking about, what would you recommend to them as next steps here? Mike (35:49) if Well, take a look at our website. If you go to mountaingoatsoftware.com. And then I think there's a courses link on the top. You can go up there and find the link to this course. It's an exciting one that we're doing. I've literally been teaching this, I think the first time I taught a class called Working on a Scrum Team was 2003 or 2004. it's a time tested course. You and I kind of redesigned it a couple of months ago to make it appropriate for public. or little better just in general and more appropriate for public. But it's a time-tested course that's now designed to be available for public settings instead of, you know, have to have 25 people or something. Brian Milner (36:36) Yeah, yeah, that's really exciting. I can't wait to see kind of how people are in, you know, react and interact in the course to some of these concepts and ideas. And we'll, we'll of course link to all these things that we've talked about in our show notes and make it easy for everyone to find the course listing and, and, you know, where the dates and everything that we're going to offer them. So make sure to check that out. Mike, thanks so much for coming on. This has been really enlightening and I appreciate you making time for it. Mike (37:01) Of course, thanks for having me, Brian. Always a pleasure.

Time now for our daily Tech and Business Report. Today, the company behind M&M's and the Mars bar is teaming up with an agriculture gene-editing company to make cocoa plants that can better withstand the effects of climate change. For more, KCBS Radio anchor Holly Quan spoke with Bloomberg News Agriculture Reporter Ilena Peng.

Welcome back to the 241st episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 241st episode we bring you the third and final instalment of our very special three-part Toronto Fringe 2025 Review Roundup. Join Jillian Robinson, Mackenzie Horner, and Ryan Borochovitz as they try to blitz through the final fourteen shows they saw at this year's festival, unpack all of their thoughts, and commemorate this moment in local theatre history for posterity! Catch up on Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtBoqIHnLCI And Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UkeDPQXM8w TIMESTAMP NAVIGATOR: 0:00:00 – Intro 0:05:31 – Singing Psychic Game Show 0:12:13 – This Show Will Change Your Life 0:19:20 – Potato Potato 0:26:48 – My Pet Lizard, Liz: The Shakespearean Existential Crisis that Led to His Ultimate Demise 0:35:32 – The Perils of Being Born in the Fall 0:43:38 – Don't Fall In 0:48:54 – Lucian, Plato, and the Secrets of the Pussy 0:55:27 – Regarding Antigone 1:06:11 – In the Diving Bell 1:16:48 – At the End of Kaliyuga 1:24:41 – Me and You and the Highland Coo 1:34:29 – Killy Willy 1:43:34 – David Lynch's Seinfeld 1:52:42 – Ctrl Alt Delete: An Alphabetical Musical 2:04:59 – Final Thoughts on Toronto Fringe 2025 2:11:04 – Sign Off Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAuJillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96 Ryan Borochovitz – Instagram: @ryanborochovitz [don't expect anything interesting over there]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz; see also, his article about clowns at the Toronto Fringe, published in Intermission Magazine: https://www.intermissionmagazine.ca/features/fringe-clown/ Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatre If you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

06 Ago. 25 - Itaú é Top, Compre maisOlá, sejam bem-vindo a mais um Fechamento de Mercado, comigo Flávio Conde e Ricardo Afonso, hoje é 4a. feira, dia 6 de agosto, o programa de hoje é dedicado aos 2mil investidores que assistiram ontem o Fechamento e os que comentaram como CJMQ dec Cambuí MG, Marcos de Londres, Ortega, Morgana dívida da Klabin, Valdecy, Munhol, Elvis José Raízen não deve se recuperar, Mauricio Moura e Fernando Pereira fiz um MM para esse domingo de BBSE3, Eduardo Bruda, Carlos Arp, Gilson, Sarkis, JPDornelles trocar Taesa por Eletrobras?, Nicoletti. Veja no vídeo a análise de Itaú, RADL, PCAR e PRIO

Join me, Danielle Ireland, on this week's episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs as I chat with Jeanine Bobenmoyer, the founder of City Moms. Jeanine shares her journey from feeling isolated in a new city to building a thriving community for moms that is expanding nationwide. We dive into the power of community building, the importance of saying 'no,' and how City Moms grew from a local network to a national movement. This conversation is filled with heartfelt moments, laughter, and invaluable lessons on self-trust and service to others. Tune in to learn how Jeanine's mission evolved and how you can connect with this incredible community of supportive moms. Don't miss Jeanine's own 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs' moment—it's a story of transformation you won't want to miss!   00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview 01:11 Jeanine's Background and City Moms Origin 02:46 Early Challenges and Community Building 04:39 Meeting Sarah and Business Growth 10:32 Drew Barrymore Show and Indianapolis Love 13:54 Content Strategy and Community Engagement 20:59 COVID Impact and National Expansion 23:05 Expanding the City Moms Community 24:17 Building a Female-Led Team 26:15 Listening to City Moms 28:50 Storytelling Over Sales 36:02 Launching a New Membership Experience 38:32 A Personal Story of Change 50:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts   RATE, REVIEW, SUBSCRIBE TO “DON'T CUT YOUR OWN BANGS”  Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that's new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today.    DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.   Connect with Jeanine: Website: www.thecitymoms.org Join our membership waitlist: https://thecitymoms.org/join-waitlist  Instagram:@thecitymoms TikTok: @thecitymoms Pinterest: @thecitymoms  Connect with Danielle: Watch the show on YouTube Instagram The Treasured Journal Wrestling a Walrus Transcript [00:00:00] [00:00:08] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are catching an episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. [00:00:13] And today I have the opportunity to sit down with city moms founder, janine Bobmeyer. Janine is a mom of teens, a yoga addict, a Michigan native, and an avid reader. Her dream vacation includes hiking in national parks with her family and a cup of hot chai. And do we get into the tea in this episode? [00:00:34] But RT is super heartfelt, heart led, and based on community building and vulnerability. If that's the stuff that you're into, then oh, you are gonna love this conversation. Of all the things I took from this episode, what Janine embodies and what you are able to learn from as well is what it means to trust yourself, and that in the process of honoring yourself, giving a wholehearted loving no or saying yes to adventure, it is leading you to something that is not only in service of you. [00:01:09] But in service of others. Janine has founded a community city moms and started as a local community that she built based on her own need in Indianapolis. But it has grown and it is popping up in cities all over the country. We get into the early days and please stay tuned if there was ever a, don't cut your own bang moment to really not wanna miss. [00:01:31] This is a good one. It actually, it bookends the episode perfectly because we start by talking about her business and the community and company that she started, but we understand the why, the deep, profound, heartfelt, why that inspired it all. What I believe to be true that when we act in service of ourself it ultimately rises everybody up with you. [00:01:56] Everything we have leaving up to it is also just equally beautiful, sweet, funny, and endearing. [00:02:03] Thank you for being here. Thank you, Janine, for this beautiful conversation. And I can't wait for you to sit back, relax, or put in your AirPods and go for a walk however you like to listen and enjoy. ​ [00:02:18] Danielle: Janine Bobmeyer. It's such a pleasure to have you on the Don't Cut Your Own Banks podcast. You are the chief executive officer and co-founder of City Moms, and it is the largest growing lifestyle brand in the Midwest. [00:02:31] So I am just so honored to spend some time with you and share all of what you do and what you offer women and mothers in the Midwest, to the Don't Cut Your own Bangs. Listeners, thank you for being here. [00:02:43] Jeanine: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. [00:02:46] Danielle: Yeah, so fun fact on how we connected, if I'm remembering this correctly, a couple of years ago, city moms reached out to me to feature Don't cut your own bank podcast in, one of your, articles or newsletters just featuring local podcasts in Indie. [00:03:03] And that was so lovely. That was at a time where I was just starting and didn't know who was listening. It was such a, it was so validating and a real confidence boost for me. So I first wanna just say thank you. [00:03:14] Jeanine: Oh my gosh, I'm so glad I remember that article. We were. [00:03:18] Pulling, I think it was the top 10 podcasts you should be listening to in Indianapolis. Specifically founded by females. And you were one of the first that came to mind, because I know you were just launching at the time. You were like, well, hello. Of course you need to be listed on this. [00:03:32] Danielle: When you're just getting something off the ground, there is such a. There's so much space between where you are, right, where you imagine yourself to be or where you wanna be. [00:03:43] And whatever you can do to just keep getting one foot in front of the other, or even getting started takes so much energy and it's vulnerable. And so you and your best friend and business partner Sarah Hawker, are sitting on top of this really beautiful community that you have built. I think community building is just a magic skill. [00:04:06] And so I wanna go back to the early days of City Moms. You have some language on your site that I love. You need a village. We have it. Yeah, I was thinking that we don't need super women. We need supported women. Right. [00:04:20] I've also learned that what we offer others usually starts with the healing we need it. And so you're a mom of teens now? Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit about like the origin of city moms and how you went from I'm imagining having a good idea with your girlfriend to sitting where you're sitting today, being featured on the Drew Barrymore show. [00:04:39] Jeanine: Yeah, I was new to Indianapolis in 2011, so we had moved to the city from Detroit. I'm originally from Michigan, but my husband's from Indy. And in moving here to be closer to his family, I didn't know anybody. And you know, my husband wonderfully, having grown up here, has a lot of friends that are still here, but he's like, let's go out with Davis and let's have, lunch with Johnson. [00:05:02] I was like, I don't wanna do any of that, like . I'm a mom and at the time I had a 1-year-old and a 4-year-old. So you're just trying to keep, your life together in those moments of motherhood anyway. So to be in a new city, and just not know One Soul was really, I mean, just adds more challenges on top of what you're already facing. [00:05:20] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:05:20] Jeanine: So we had been here and just before I moved, a friend of mine in Detroit said, have you checked out Meetup? And I was like, no, what is this? And so she's telling me about Meetup and you can go on, you can kind of filter based on your interests and find a local community. And so I did and I found a couple moms groups that were in the Indianapolis area. [00:05:43] I found that, most of the majority of moms communities that we find really across the nation, even today, are tied to one of two things. It's churches [00:05:51] Danielle: or it's schools. [00:05:52] And we [00:05:52] Jeanine: didn't have either. I decided that that was the moment to potentially launch, my own community. [00:05:58] One that was just open to all moms across Indianapolis, that didn't have those specific kind of school or church affiliation, and we had a hundred members sign up on the first day. [00:06:09] Danielle: Whoa. I I have to pause for just a moment. Yeah. So you were seeking to meet your own need. Yes. And I find that so interesting that's really telling about you. [00:06:20] Just as a person and how you move through the world is you saw a gap for your own experience and then immediately connected it to what? Like, how do I expand this beyond me? Yes. As opposed to like, how do I find my community? How do I find my people? You're like, oh, there aren't people or communities, so I'm gonna build one. [00:06:40] That's really interesting. [00:06:42] Jeanine: Yeah. And for me it was because, I desperately needed community. I desperately was seeking that out. I had never been, shy to creating that myself in prior iterations. I was coming out of the advertising industry in Detroit and even in this really large advertising agency, had found my little corner of people. [00:07:04] At the time, had founded a tiny, I forget exactly what we called ourselves, but we were almost like our cheerleading community of the agency itself, where we started to put on little events for this large agency. And it started just because, we saw that at the workplace, it was just constant go, go, go. [00:07:21] In advertising. And there wasn't that pause to connect with, you know, your your desk mate or a team member. And so that for me, is just something that I've always loved doing. [00:07:31] But in coming to Indianapolis recognized, I also needed a community here and without kids in school, without having a church home, without even having, a neighborhood that I was close to. Just that gap existed and I realized it was something I needed to fill. [00:07:48] Danielle: Yeah. And not only did you, it sounds like fill that for yourself, but then you met a need that many other women in the community had too. Now, how did this, so was Sarah somebody that came with you from Michigan? Did you meet her here? How did that connection happen? [00:08:04] Jeanine: Yeah, so Sarah, my business partner and one of my dearest dearest, I actually met her. [00:08:08] We've known each other seven years now. [00:08:10] Danielle: Hmm. [00:08:10] Jeanine: The city moms community. And membership was running for years. [00:08:15] Danielle: Oh. [00:08:15] Jeanine: I was introduced to her, through a mutual friend. It was such a funny experience because we were at this mutual friend's house for a dinner, and immediately upon meeting her I was like, well, this is someone I obviously need to know forever. [00:08:30] She just has one of the most dynamic personalities. She's so engaging. She just pulls you right in. And she asked me a question about, a dress I was wearing. It was from anthropology. And she was like, oh yeah, I have that dress. I think I have that in black. And you're, you wearing it in like a green. [00:08:45] And I was like, boy. Yes. [00:08:47] Danielle: Yes. It's like that scene in stepbrothers, it's like 1, 2, 3 anthropology. [00:08:51] Jeanine: Yes. Exactly. [00:08:52] Danielle: Exactly. And I [00:08:53] Jeanine: was like, oh, well, we're obviously besties. Yeah. Yeah. At the time, she was in the process of, quitting her nursing job. [00:09:02] Danielle: She said, [00:09:02] Jeanine: yes, I'm really, I think my last day is going to be August 31st, and that happens to be my son's birthday. [00:09:09] And she said, I'm just, I've been working so hard, I making this change. I'm going to start my own company. And I just, I've needed this push for a long time. And I said, I am going to text or call you on August 31st and find out how it's going. And she was like, are you really? [00:09:27] And so there we are two months later. I texted her and I said, how's it going? Did you start your own company? Are you making this next move? And she was like, yes. And this is amazing that you remembered. And we just have been close ever since. So she's one of my absolute favorite people, and as the city moms has evolved, so has her role. [00:09:47] First as a member, then she was a member of our content team, which I'm sure we'll chat about here a little bit. And now she's, my business partner. [00:09:55] Danielle: Wow. That's so beautiful. I find that, women who work together, play together, raise kids alongside each other, it's like in the way that women can change hats in life. [00:10:08] They can do that within relationships. I've just seen really well, is it, I think that there's that old paradigm of which I've never really bought into, which is, check your feelings at the door or leave work at the door. It's like we're all one person. The day where we have all these different parts and that's so beautiful. [00:10:26] How. That sounds like this friendship has grown as well as the business growth. [00:10:30] Jeanine: Yes. [00:10:31] Absolutely. And, you've hinted at the Drew Barrymore Show which was an opportunity that came out in COVID complete surprise. [00:10:40] Danielle: Yeah. [00:10:40] Jeanine: To receive an email from the producers in set by, actually this was like end of July, 2021. [00:10:46] And they said, with COVID having really tampered down, a lot of the programming we're able to do for this show, we're not allowed to travel as much. We are launching a new kind of mini segment inside the show itself. We would love to chat with you about the one that we would like to do in Indianapolis. [00:11:02] We noticed that you're based there. Would you have any interest? And of course, Sarah was my first phone call because [00:11:08] I just like, ah, I need someone to scream with for a moment. Yeah. And because we had no idea or context what the segment specifically was about. And so I called and scream with her and then, immediately called the producers. [00:11:19] And they said, well, what we're looking to do is have two best friends in the city showcase the city together. And what makes your city unique? [00:11:28] Danielle: I mean, who better to do it? [00:11:30] Jeanine: And we were like, Indianapolis is such a incredible city and community to begin with. In just the 14 years that we've been here to see the growth that this area has had. [00:11:40] Just all of the changes downtown, all of these incredible like national events that they bring in, like this weekend being WNBA All Star Weekend. [00:11:49] The city has just shown up for this. They've had the final four. They've had US Olympics pre swim trials. This city knows how to put on, a really incredible display on a national level. [00:12:01] Danielle: Do you know, what you're making me think about is, so in the work I do in therapy, particularly when I'm working, with someone on their relationship, that the longer you've been with someone, or, and you could even, insert really any topic, a job, a place you live in this case, a relationship, it's easy to take for granted what you think. [00:12:23] About them and you lose access to maybe the curiosity and the wonder that allows you to continue to discover. I have lived in Indianapolis my entire life. You mentioned living here 14 years, but when I was preparing for this interview and seeing all the places that you're highlighting, there are places I have never been, and I've been here my whole entire life. [00:12:44] Just because I think I know, like this is where I live. Of course, I know there is so much that I don't know and we're talking about community and we're obviously highlighting City moms, but I think that there are takeaways that can be applied to so many walks of life, which is just when you think you know something, for sure. [00:13:02] Allow yourself a little bit more space. There's this little bit room for a little bit more wonder and curiosity. [00:13:09] Jeanine: Yeah, absolutely. I think that takes it back even to the origin of the city moms, in a big piece of that mission was I wanted to get out and explore this new city and community that we were in. [00:13:21] Just didn't have the roots quite yet to do that. And I wanted to do it alongside people [00:13:25] as opposed to on my own. And, we're talking about all these big events that the city puts on. But the other beautiful thing is that the real fabric of the city lives in its people and those that are here, we see so many that are coming in from other communities. [00:13:41] We see a lot like you that have lived here for forever. But there's such an incredible mix of people in this city that really make it as special as it is. And I love that. [00:13:51] Danielle: Thank you that's such a great response. And your love for the city is so felt. And I, I'm curious about when you're in your content, which by the way, for any, everyone listening, everything is linked in the show notes, all the social media platforms, city moms, where you can join the wait list for their membership program. [00:14:09] All of that is accessible to you in the show notes. So press pause, sign up, follow all the things and then come back. 'Cause the other thing I love about your content is you layer in a lot of humor and, even though it's not maybe spoken this way, there's this quality of, yeah, girl, I've been like, this is messy. [00:14:28] And I'm also wiping up my own mess. I also have coffee stains. I also have food in my teeth. Can we just laugh at the ridiculousness of how hard this is sometimes? And I'm curious about how intentional is it? [00:14:39] Are there like pillars that you try to hit when you put content out? Like it must hit these notes and if so, I wanna know what they are. [00:14:47] Jeanine: Yeah, we really do because I think you're absolutely right for us. And I'll just share a little bit behind the scenes for the city moms, in terms of the tone and voice that we are always after in virtually every piece of our content. [00:14:59] I think this also comes out of my marketing and advertising background, but, the voice and the tone in the brand that we are always aspiring to be. Is your best friend growing up and your best friend growing up was the person you confided everything to Similar to me, screaming at Sarah about Drew Barrymore. [00:15:18] This is the pers there's your first call, that's your first call, your first text. But your best friend's sister, her older sister growing up was the coolest girl that you ever met. She was the girl that had the full pull out posters on her wall. She had the Dr. Pepper lip smackers, she was watching the Hills, and she was the girl that you're like, I wanna be her when I grow up. [00:15:40] She's the person that is just a few steps ahead from where you are , in your current life. [00:15:45] Danielle: Yeah. [00:15:45] Jeanine: stage. And you are constantly keeping an eye on her. That voice, that older sister is the one that we always aspire our city moms brand to be. Because we have been there, we have sat in those shoes. We have experienced a lot of the mess. [00:16:00] But that doesn't mean that we are completely. Removed and away from it. It means that we are just a couple days ahead of where our city mom might be and all of our content will always ladder into that voice to say, yeah, we know it sucks 'cause we've been there. [00:16:17] For us, I think what's so critical when we're selecting what content we wanna put out, so the humor that you see in a lot of our Instagram content . Is something that really is a great way to be super relatable and just, share a lot of those similar moments. The one we posted yesterday, [00:16:33] but, in case anyone wants to go back, either the reel that we posted yesterday is from a creator named Sam, and she's sitting on her bed thinking and speaking aloud saying, why did I say that I was so busy before I had kids? What was I even doing before I was a mom? And I think all of us in motherhood and truly in adulthood [00:16:55] Danielle: mm-hmm. [00:16:56] Jeanine: Have had that moment where even like, what did I do with my time? Like, what on earth was I filling my hours with? [00:17:02] That to be able to have kind of those humorous moments, I think is really critical to making sure that we're connecting with our City mom followers and, prospective, members too. [00:17:14] Danielle: That type of humor makes you feel seen. Yes. It helps you feel seen. And I think some, especially someone who like will grab the shovel and help dig into like the pits of experience with clients, some having the levity. If there was ever a myth I wish I could bust about therapy and community, whether it's group or a community like city moms or any extension when you find that type of connection, yes, you can have like with a best friend or a best friend's older sister, you can have those moments where it may be a tear or two are shed, but when somebody sees you. [00:17:51] There's laughter that happens in every therapy session that either I've participated in my own therapy or have led somebody else through. There is something about the truth, especially the truth that you try so hard to avoid or that this is the one thing I just need to keep tucked in my drawer and never let anybody see. [00:18:07] But then you see somebody else has it and you're like, oh, , you have that dress too. Oh my God. Yes, [00:18:13] Jeanine: yes, yes. Absolutely. And I think too, what's, really critical in doing that is just knowing that you are not living a path that is completely unpaved. [00:18:25] It is so hard in. Those moments when you've had two hours of sleep. It's so hard in those moments when you're like, are we ever gonna get past this phase? But I think what brings so much comfort along the way is knowing that there are other women that have done that. [00:18:38] And for us, that's why it's so critical to have a community that is supportive of each other and really allows you to be in those vulnerable moments with others. [00:18:48] Danielle: What do you think attracts people to you and to your organization? [00:18:51] Because like anything that you're highlighting could also be Googled. Yeah. But there's a way that you offer it and there's a way that you present it that is, it simplifies. It's reliable. There's like this bubbly, sparkling champagne effervescence to it. It just makes it a little shinier. [00:19:09] Jeanine: That's such a good question. I don't, there's some days when I'm like, I have no idea. You're like, we've been doing this for so many years, what are we doing? I really think it's because, and to use your phrase, feeling seen. [00:19:20] And feeling seen and being a part of an club that is all, inclusive and allows everyone to be a part of it. Even in some of our content where we're sharing events that we might have put on for just our membership, so not even just our social media, following our, editorial readers, the people that see us and broadcast and tv, but we do have this community of members as well. [00:19:42] So when we put on these membership events, that are a little more exclusive, we love to share those out with the phrase, steal this idea, because then it becomes less, this is only available to these specific women or these specific members and make it a, this can be your idea too. So steal this idea. [00:20:02] We ordered pizza and we set up a really fun style party, or picnic set up in a park and we didn't invite kids. It was just moms and we gabbed for the entire evening and we had a blast. Yeah, and you should steal this idea too, because it doesn't need to just be ours. [00:20:19] Danielle: I can feel now how that falls. [00:20:20] So in line with your idea of, we wanna be your best friend's, big sister, because that's what they would do. Listen, just take the shirt. You can keep it. It doesn't fit me anymore. I love that. Not only is it generous, but it speaks to, I think with time and experience you realize, oh, there's always gonna be more for me. [00:20:36] So why gate keep it like there's always gonna be more. So you just have some of this. You can share some of this magic. That's so beautiful. Has your mission changed? Since you first started, has it grown or is it kind of the same? [00:20:48] Jeanine: It's evolved. I mean, initially the mission and the focus was always just to create this membership community. [00:20:55] And that would be it. And we just had this, community of women here in Indianapolis. The change happened and evolved in COVID because as everyone knows, COVID forced so many of us home. That ability to connect in person no longer existed. In COVID, we held for our membership a daily call at four o'clock on Zoom that allowed our members to just get on and just have people. [00:21:20] We had moms that were like, I've been in my backyard all day. We had moms that were like, I cannot play with Play-Doh anymore. I just need to have an adult to talk to. It started. With the realization that we couldn't be together in person any longer and we needed to make a shift. [00:21:37] And in making that shift, what we found was that our brand exploded nationally. So it went from we are moms in Indianapolis, to, we are moms that everyone across the nation can now connect with because we are all living the same life together. And it never slowed down. So when we look at the breakout of our following in our audience right now, about 30% of that is in the Midwest and very quickly growing. [00:22:03] But the other pockets are New York. Texas, California. And, it just is such an incredible realization that, what started as this very local idea became a steal. This idea, let's all do this. [00:22:17] And on a much bigger scale. So, now we have this wonderful platform. Our number one driver is certainly Instagram because that's where we, I mean, as almost all women in our age group. [00:22:30] Yeah. We live, we love it. Yeah. So Instagram's kind of our number one. A channel, I would say our second is, broadcast tv. [00:22:38] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:22:39] Jeanine: So in COVID, a lot of broadcast stations around the country, also had to shift to a Zoom model and Yep. Desperately needed content. and started reaching out to us because we provided a lot of lifestyle content. [00:22:51] The here tips for keeping your kids, safe in the new COVID world. Here are tips for planning kids being at home during back to school. And it, we grew from that and we are now in nine different TV broadcast markets around the Midwest. [00:23:04] Danielle: Wow. [00:23:05] Jeanine: In addition to segments we do across the country. [00:23:07] Danielle: Those segments. I mean, not only are they, fun to look at, but they also provide great information. So when everybody listening goes to city moms.org, you'll be able to see all the media outlets that they've been on. [00:23:19] All those clips are saved there. It's like in this beautiful little library bank that you can watch. So it sounds like it's changed, it's grown rapidly. Beyond, or I would say even within the container of the community that you've created in Indianapolis, there's also a growing community for the business itself. [00:23:35] There's many direct reports and people who are working within the city moms organization, and also supporting in other ways. So I'm curious, just from a business owner standpoint, how has that, 'cause that, as your community expanded, it's also like the call's coming from within the house, there's growth happening inside too. [00:23:53] What has that been like? [00:23:55] Jeanine: It's been incredible. , Because again, we really thought that, in initially creating this community, we were going to live as a micro kind of nano events community would probably be the best way to put it. Or we put on events for our members and we would just keep putting on events for members. [00:24:09] And we had our social channels to share out some of that information. But I thought for a long time that it was just gonna be isolated in this teeny circle. And now, we have a extremely popular blog. We have a digital editor, an entire writing staff that works under her. We have a completely female, based staff. [00:24:28] Every member on our team is female. We've got this digital editor writing staff under her. We have a content team separate from the writing staff. They are the ones that go out and gather a lot of the content that we put across social and broadcast. We have project management team for all of our brand sponsorships that we work on. [00:24:47] Our newest hire is a Pinterest expert, which has been so fun. Pinterest is one of those sleeper cells that, not a lot of emphasis gets put on for lifestyle media brands, and we've decided to invest a person in that. She does a wonderful job at getting our editorial and our broadcast out in Pinterest. [00:25:06] And then, there's Sarah and I who provide leadership Sarah has been a co-partner now for, four months, or we're going into our fourth months together. So we're still figuring out those little funnels right now. We're just having fun, overlapping, and living everything together. [00:25:21] And where she was that first call, I made for the Drew Barrymore show, she's now my first call literally for everything. We've got this big event coming up on Saturday. We need to figure out, the backdrop we're gonna have behind that. [00:25:31] She called me yesterday and I said, Hey, work wife, because that's, we've definitely become for each other in addition to Best Friends. [00:25:38] Danielle: Yeah. Is it an instinct? Is it research? Is it a combination thereof of how you stay connected with what moms really need? Yeah. Is because , I'm a mom of littles. I have a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old and almost 2-year-old. He'll be two later in August. And I, I know my experience, but you seem to have a really strong sense based on the way people are really connected to this community, of staying connected with what mothers specifically really need. And I'm curious how you stay current with that, or is it more that the needs really haven't changed? [00:26:15] Jeanine: No, I think that, for us, because we have such a large staff, [00:26:20] and for the most part, the majority of those women are mothers. [00:26:24] Danielle: Yeah. [00:26:24] Jeanine: All of us are living a different little phase of motherhood. [00:26:28] I have teens, Sarah has 12, 10, and eight. Our photographer Brittany has four and two just like you. So everyone is living in a different stage and I think not only do we have each other from our team perspective but because we have our membership community who is most certainly living all of this. [00:26:47] We are able to lean on their experiences in addition to our own. [00:26:52] And then, one of the biggest things that I really implore our team to do is listen and constantly listen about what city mom and we call our avatar is city mom. And, regardless, again, if she's a member or if she's a follower of our brand and another channel, we call her city mom. So I'm always pushing to listen to city mom, listen to where city mom is right now, what things are the hurdles in her life, what she's up against. [00:27:19] And listening is the most important thing because the last thing that I wanna do in managing and running a brand and spearheading a brand is to not listen and just assume. I think when I also talk about voice, one of the biggest things that, we've talked about as a team as well, is I'm hearing a lot of we [00:27:39] and I'm not hearing enough of you. And by that I mean. We can't come out and say, we know that you're so tired. We know that you're doing all of these things and say, you're telling us that you're tired. You're telling us that you need some space or you need some tips on this. And by making that switch in kind of that voice that helps city mom understand that we are listening, [00:28:02] Danielle: Ooh. [00:28:03] That is a, that's a really powerful language shift. And it's amazing how adjusting a word from a we to a u can really make something washed and vague to very specific and like straight to the heart. I think that there's something too. The language of clarifying what is a really a we what is a you and it speaks straight to the heart of what I think we want, which is to be seen. [00:28:30] There's something about your community that doesn't beat you over the head with messaging. That's one thing that I was really impressed with , is that you get the sense of the essence of what you're saying, but there's not like a slogan. But the sense of the community is so clear. [00:28:47] Jeanine: Yeah. [00:28:47] Danielle: Which I find really beautiful. [00:28:49] Jeanine: I appreciate that. I think, one of the things that we've forever wrestled with was, is really that idea of sales. [00:28:56] I am, I and my team has heard me say this a number of times. I've always been a bigger fan of storytelling over sales and, storytelling kind of an experience as opposed to, you should buy in today. Deadline is this day, you gotta get in now, join here. This is the link. Because we get sold on almost everything across our lives. [00:29:18] And it's, something as little as, the gym to making a donation to a school, your kid's school to just, everything else you can think of under the sun. To me, it's important to continue promoting the essence of a community that you belong to as opposed to an idea that you need to buy into with dollars. [00:29:37] And, that's one of the reasons that we transformed the city moms into a completely free membership. [00:29:43] That also came out of COVID and hearing a lot of city moms say, I have to make some concessions right now. We had to shut off Netflix. We're not doing our Netflix subscription anymore because we're just so worried about budget. [00:29:56] And, that 9 99 a month that we were initially charging for membership, I was like, no. Done. That's out. [00:30:03] Danielle: Never [00:30:03] Jeanine: We will never go back to a paid membership. It will always be free because it needs to be accessible to everyone. [00:30:10] Danielle: So taking away a paid membership that sure, that money was budgeted and allocated for you to operate what you do, it sounded like it was absolutely the right call for your community and your business, but how did you know that that would work? [00:30:26] Or did you [00:30:27] Jeanine: It didn't. No. For a little bit it didn't work, and I'll say that because I think. A lot of us are parts of, Facebook communities that are very, spirited, maybe in some ways that, bring a lot of entertainment. And we were nervous that that would essentially be the transformation that we would undergo. [00:30:47] But, we have all members incoming. Agree to specific member guidelines. And, the number one guideline that is in there is every mom, parents in her own perfect way. And we use that specific language because, in some of similar to a lot of things that we've talked about, the fact is we're all doing our absolute best that we can. And you need to be able to have some space held for you to do that. [00:31:13] Rather than us identify our community based on your specific parenting model, we said, Hey, everyone is welcome here and we're going to honor you for being the parent that you are because we are all parenting in our own perfect way. [00:31:26] Danielle: Yeah. And nobody knows. Yes. No one has any, nobody knows. [00:31:31] That's always the gift of captain Hindsight, who comes in after a crisis and it's what should have happened? It's you know what studies are showing now. You're like, where were you before? I, I, so you talked about, advertising and with all of the products and content and methodologies that are targeted to parents, but more specifically moms, what are the values that you look for when you're filtering through? Who do you partner with? Who do you highlight? Who do you say yes to? Like, what's the value that you're really looking to offer? [00:32:02] Jeanine: I'm so glad you're asking that because, I think the space that we sit in. We often are, seeing a lot of influencers and content creators that they are really working hard to grow their brand and do that by signing with any partner that they can. And you find that there can be a real, I don't wanna say a moral gap because again, I'm just coming off saying everyone parents their own perfect way. [00:32:25] So everyone pulls content and creates content in their own perfect way. But, in, looking and evaluating the partners that we wanna work with, it's really critical to us that they offer a strong, supportive, product or experience for our members and for our followers. We do a lot of partnership with tourism, with attractions, that offer something for you to really be highlighted as the queen of your family. [00:32:51] 'cause you're like, Hey. We're gonna go to Nashville for the weekend, and I've been able to put together a whole itinerary, thanks to the city moms maybe tipping me off about a couple things. But now I've gone out and sourced this great itinerary, or I have been able to enhance our nursery because we found this one product that the city moms recommended. [00:33:09] All of that to say it's really important to us. We spend a lot of time vetting the products that we suggest we spend a lot of time working with or having conversations with the brands that we bring in. That's never just a, Hey, we want to, compensate you X and you guys promote us, and we'll be like, okay, perfect. [00:33:25] There's a lot of time that we spend really making sure that is going to make a lot of sense. In fact, one of my favorite things to say is, no, Sarah will tell everyone this. [00:33:33] Danielle: Tell me more about that. [00:33:34] Jeanine: Yes. Just did this yesterday. I love when we are being, approached by a particular brand or a client or prospective partner. [00:33:41] And I love going through that vetting process and saying, you know what? We spent some time looked into this and this isn't gonna work for us. Case in point, the brand I turned down yesterday is something that we actually use a lot. Sarah and I are big fans of a couple of their products. [00:33:57] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:33:58] Jeanine: And they approached us about a new launch they're doing and said, we would love to ship you, two of the new products, but we want all of this content, you need to send it to us for review. [00:34:08] You can only post on the dates that we want. You need to release it all to us that we can use it for our future advertising. By the way, the cost of the products that we're sending you in total is $300. And, the amount of media that was gonna be attached to that from our side was about $5,000. [00:34:26] We have a staff I need to pay, we have a team that, relies on us. We have a full following that relies on us to make sure that we're being authentic in what we are bringing forward. I talked to Sarah about it a little bit and I said, I'm gonna tell them no. And I'm gonna say there's a big value gap here. [00:34:41] Not just from the official bottom line kind of payment side of this, but also because I never wanna put someone into a brand consideration when that brand's not considering them. Just considering their own needs and their own drivers. [00:34:56] Danielle: Oh, that's so strong. And not an answer I expected, but when I so appreciated on a personal level, a professional level. [00:35:04] I don't know, if you've ever done Myers-Briggs, it's a test that Oh yeah. There's so many beautiful like personality assessment profiles, but I'm an extroverted, intuitive feeler perceiver, so I'm all the, ooey, gooey side, the mussies. And, when I see people who maybe from the outside seem to have a very discerning methodology for how they make decisions. [00:35:23] I find that so appealing because I'm such a heart led gut check, first kind of person, I don't always know why it's a yes or a no yet. It's like I feel it first, and then it works its way up into my brain and then whatever reasoning is sort of filtered through will come from that. [00:35:41] But I love that you saw value in yourself, how you believed in the value of what you offer, and you also saw the gap in representing that product or that brand, that didn't fully appreciate the value you were. I just, I love that answer so much. I'll be thinking about that after this, so thank you. [00:36:01] Jeanine: Yes, absolutely. [00:36:02] Danielle: Absolutely. You have a new membership experience starting. [00:36:05] We do very, very soon. This episode, I believe, will be being released mid-August, so, we could safely say it's live, what do you want people to know about what's coming and as far as what you can say, what do you want people to know so that if they wanna participate, get involved, they can. [00:36:23] Jeanine: So our new city moms membership is, officially launching to our, we will be, rolling it out to our existing members starting August 1st, and then it will be available to everyone starting, early September. [00:36:34] Danielle: Awesome. [00:36:36] Jeanine: So we are shifting into a different platform than we have used previously. It's called Circle and it's a wonderful space where we not only can have our full national city mom community, you're gonna find chat groups where you can connect with other city moms across the country there, because, me having like toddler woes in Indianapolis is no different from something having toddler woes in Seattle, Washington. [00:37:01] So why shouldn't you have access to that mom and her, lines of recommendation and such. So we'll have these national chat groups. We also have an opportunity, we'll be doing a lot of lives inside the community that are member exclusive, that we can connect you to some of these, brands and partners that we work with. [00:37:17] And then we are doing nano communities inside of that so that you can hyper connect with women inside your own city. So Indianapolis obviously will be our first big pilot there, but we have Dallas and Cincinnati that are also existing inside, that nano community area. And we have, three other cities that we think are going to be quickly following in 2026 as well. [00:37:40] Danielle: That's so incredible. Congratulations. It sounds like your own city mom social network. Yes. Yes, it totally is. I'm excited for everybody who's an existing member to get to benefit from that. And then the new members who continue to join to get involved in that. [00:37:55] That's incredible. [00:37:57] Jeanine: Thank you. Yeah, it's been one of Sarah's biggest passion projects as she's been getting her feet wet and she's done an incredible job with it. The other really exciting benefit is there are perks, not only for our national members, but then in your hyper local communities too. [00:38:11] So, here in Indianapolis, we've got some great perks with, the Ile Jordan Museum, with the Children's Museum, even dry bar, face Foundry, 'cause we need space for us too, all of those exclusive perks will be part of that too. [00:38:25] Danielle: Beautiful. So not just stuff for the family, but also like ways for moms to take care of themselves too. Exactly. Gorgeous. Yes. Well, Janine, I would be remiss if I signed off without asking you about your, don't cut your own bangs moment because I, it is good. So if you are good taking it away, I would love to hear [00:38:43] Jeanine: yeah. I just wanna tell you, I love this so much. I've listened to so many of your other podcasts and these are the moments I just feel like really are the ones that sit with me the most so I'm so thrilled that you have this as kind of just, that final vehicle to the podcast content. [00:38:59] But mine's a little different because there is, a little sadness tied to it, but it brings a great lesson. [00:39:05] Danielle: Yeah. [00:39:05] Jeanine: So I had mentioned that I worked in advertising for 10 years. I worked on the agency side and I was working in Detroit at the time. And I had a newborn. My daughter was a newborn, and then I had my son who was three years old at the time, and my client was based out of Germany. [00:39:25] It's a very large grocery chain that happens to be based in Germany and they have a lot of outputs here in the US And at the time, we were all going through just a horrible recession in the world. And I was working about 60 to 70 hours a week. Advertising is one of those, especially on agency side. [00:39:44] It's one of those industries. It is go, go, go. And it is never stopping. My husband also works in advertising. It's actually how we met. He at the time was doing about 90 hours a week. We never saw each other, we rarely saw the kids. So my day normally started around 3:00 AM because that's when the German, office was open. [00:40:03] And it normally coincided with the time I was feeding my newborn in the middle of the night. So I would have my phone with me, feeding her, scrolling through email and catching up with the German team, put her back to sleep. Then, I would get up around six when my toddler was awake and finally get the two of them off to daycare. [00:40:18] And I made the decision, which a male boss of mine later told me was selfish to go work out at a gym that was halfway between daycare and, work every day. So I didn't get into the office until around 8 45. Technically our office started at nine. I would work absolutely all day and then race out of my office at 5 51 because if I could leave at 5 51, I could literally run down the street to our parking garage, get in my car, drive as fast as I could at daycare and be there before the seven minute grace period was over. [00:40:50] Danielle: You had it down to the minute? [00:40:52] Jeanine: Down to the minute and. It was coming at a time where it was just, I was so burnt out. My husband was so burnt out this one day I got to daycare. My kids were always the final ones getting picked up. And I had a phrase for my toddler at the time where I'd always say, mommy always comes back. [00:41:11] I would say that to him every morning when I dropped him off. And I ran into daycare this day and my son was crying. I could hear him in the toddler room. So I grabbed the newborn. She was already in her carrier. And then I went in to pick him up and he's crying. And I said, honey, I'm here. [00:41:26] And I got down and gave him a hug. And I said, sweetie, what do I always say? Mommy always comes, Ooh, this makes me tear up. Even think about all this years later. And he goes Last, mommy always comes last. And that was the most soul crushing thing I had ever heard in my life. And I cried the entire way home. [00:41:47] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:41:48] Jeanine: And we put the kids down to bed after dinner and after their bath, and I turned to my husband, I said, we cannot do this anymore. I'm done. We're done. We can't keep this schedule going. This is just, this is not gonna sustain us anymore. And we made the decision that night that was the end of this work experience for us. [00:42:08] And, we immediately put resumes and feelers out and that is what made, the transition to Indianapolis possible. It took months, but we eventually found ourselves here and it was the best decision that we ever made. [00:42:21] And what it all came down to was in my don't cut your own bangs moment, was it is okay to say no. It is okay to take that stop. And is it okay to invest in yourself and your family if that's what really matters to you? I think maybe that's what the critical note is. It's okay to invest what matters to you. [00:42:39] To me, that has always been the moment that I have seen as a turning point and, has really been probably the most critical thing for me. [00:42:48] Danielle: Thank you so much for that story that my whole body, it was waves and waves went through, with that and you, when you said it earlier in the interview, but I can really feel the truth of that in a different way. [00:43:05] That you love saying no. Yeah, because I think what I hear in that is it's a fully embodied no is also a yes to something else. [00:43:17] Jeanine: Yes, [00:43:18] Danielle: it is its own. Yes. Like I'm saying no to this offer to position your brand. And I'm saying yes to my integrity. I'm saying no to the needs and the demands that this company and this industry has for me and my life. [00:43:35] And I'm saying yes to my son. Yeah, my infant, like I'm saying yes to me. Oh, I, that reminded me, I hadn't thought of this in so long, but it brought me back to when I. Made the decision to start my, when my husband and I made the decision to start to try to get pregnant, the journey was, knowing what I know now, far less complicated than it is for many. [00:44:01] But it didn't happen the way I thought it would. And that is almost always where suffering comes from me. When there's an unmet expectation and I could, you're taught your whole life. It's like if you look at a penis or sit on a toilet seat wrong you never know how you're gonna get pregnant. So when you first start trying it like, what do you mean it didn't happen right away? What do you mean? My first pregnancy I was a new-ish therapist. I think I had been practicing for, I'm gonna say two and a half, two and a half-ish years, three, maybe three. [00:44:28] But I had, the process of going back to grad school, finding I didn't have the credits I needed to even qualify to apply to the grad program. All of this work and effort. It was like once I set my sights on, I think this is something I want for myself, there was almost immediately after, oh my God. [00:44:46] But I figured that out so late in life and I gotta go, go, go, go, go. So I burnt myself to a crisp getting through all of the hoops I needed to get through to do the job. And I didn't realize the grind on my body, on my mind, on my life. I just didn't see it. I joked that it felt like the road runner and coyote running off the cliff and you didn't realize you were over the cliff until you looked down and my moment of looking down and falling was when I lost that first pregnancy. [00:45:14] And, I don't blame myself for it. It's not that. But there was a clarity in the grief and I think the grief I felt in my own body. Yeah. Your son spoke his truth to you. I felt like my body was, the grief in my body was revealing a truth to me that I wasn't willing to see, which was [00:45:36] there's no room for me in this life that I've built and I have to cut back. And it brought up like being a good girl, being a strong woman, being a strong feminist, being a diligent employee, being reliable, all of these roles and these external things that I was chasing in the pursuit of being really good at my job. [00:45:58] Mm-hmm. That loss was just, oh, actually none of this matters as much as I thought it did. Not that it doesn't matter, but it didn't matter because I thought it did and my hours cut dramatically back and it didn't work for the practice that I was working for before the hours that I would be willing to do. [00:46:18] But then I realized with my husband's support that, oh, I actually can go out on my own. And life has unfolded. It wasn't like magically overnight any more than city moms was created magically, overnight. But it got you to Indianapolis. Mm-hmm. It's like the breadcrumb trail that you were following to freedom led you to something so beautiful that you probably couldn't have imagined at that day at your son's daycare picking them up. [00:46:43] Jeanine: Absolutely. And I think, it's kind of the power of listening and that's one of the things I love so much about your podcast is being able to listen to the other stories that come from your guests and really, that you have the ability to tease out such a gift and clearly the path that you have followed has allowed you to be there too, in, that space of, [00:47:05] beauty and it's just, it's wonderful. [00:47:08] Danielle: Thank you. Thank you, Janine. Thank you so much. I'm going to bring us to a close 'cause we can't get any better. That was so, great. I will definitely encourage, again, for everybody listening to please visit the show notes before you click back into your life and take your AirPods out or, get off of your walk or wherever you are in life. [00:47:29] Like to hop over the show notes, check out city moms, follow them on social media. They make it very easy to find what you need to know, so all the places you can follow them. [00:47:37] But thank you again. Thank you. Thank you Janine. And, [00:47:40] Jeanine: Thank you so much for having me. [00:47:42] ​ [00:47:42] ​ [00:47:44] ​ [00:48:52] ​ [00:50:11] Thank you so much for joining me in this week's episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you enjoyed listening because I thoroughly enjoyed making it. Before you hop away, please check out the show notes, everything that we mentioned here in this conversation, as well as links that you can stay connected with me. As well as everything needed to connect with city moms. Please remember to rate and review and subscribe to the podcast. It helps the podcast grow. It helps other people find this that could benefit from it too. Thank you so much for being here. [00:50:37] Your attention means the world, and I hope you continue to have a wonderful day.

Tous ces entrepreneurs qui exhibent leurs CA… ça me me fait monter la moutarde au nez. Je t'explique pourquoi dans cette MM. Tu me diras de ce que tu en penses, toi? (Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin 

Ped, Burk and Timmy welcome on Burk's classmate, Grace, to open the show, to discuss their recent 20-year reunion, or lack thereof. Grace also answers the hard hitting 90s girl questions before she leaves us. The boys then discuss drive thru etiquette, Adam wanting to grow his beard out just so he can have the full barbershop experience, Adam has found the holy grail of pizza, and Burk's perfect song. For the Meat, Mm!, the guys give their Mt Rushmore of "All-Time Wrestling Moments" in honor of Hulk Hogan. Take a walk with us to the 90s boys bedroom to close the show. Love y'all. Hut Hut.

The city's restaurant industry is showing signs of stress. Crain's Forum editor Cassandra West talks with host Amy Guth about the sector's many migraines.Plus: Chicago stands to win — and lose — in the rail industry's first coast-to-coast merger, AbbVie raises guidance as key drugs and pipeline deals boost growth, Illinois co-leads states' lawsuit against Trump administration's transgender care crackdown and M&M's owner is helping a premium chocolatier crack the U.S. market, starting in Chicago.

On this episode we get to meet Andra Wochesen, a teacher and then a coach. Andra received her college degree in kinesiology education. What is kinesiology, you may ask? Physical education. Andra will tell us more and how she progressed from years of teaching to coaching to help “entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact”. Andra focuses today on helping people understand themselves and their lives. She uses tools such as examining Akashic Records. We get to learn in detail what Andra does and how she accomplishes helping people gain insights into their existence and how to move forward.   I hope you find Andra's time with us informative and instructive.     About the Guest:   Andra supports entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction, so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact. Purpose, Power & Presence.   Along with a 25 -year background in kinesiology and education, Andra is multi-certified as a coach, with enhanced training in energetic and embodiment techniques, including Law of Attraction, Reiki, Akashic Records, Tapping and Quantum Flow.   This unique combination of skills coupled with her intuitive and innate understanding of the body and energy and ability to uncover dormant soul gifts, allows her to support her clients in a deeply integrated way, creating lasting change and expedited results.   She has recently received a breast cancer diagnosis and is truly being asked to walk her talk as she faces the unexpected and a lot of unknowns. Part of her mission and purpose is to share her journey to support others, and though this is health related, how to apply this to any path people are currently walking. Ways to connect with Andra:   Website: https://www.andrawochesen.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andra-wochesen-purposepowerpresence/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andra_energycoach/# You-Tube: https://www.youtube.com/@andrawochesen To your listeners, here is a link for my Personal Power Activation Series https://andrawochesen.simplero.com/personalpoweractivation     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:28 We really appreciate you taking the time to listen to us or watch us and our guest Andra Wochesen who is going to talk to us about a variety of things, and one of the things that I will tell you is she has a degree in kinesiology, and she'll have to define that. I'm not going to, although I now know what it means and I know how to pronounce it, mostly because she told me. But I really am excited to have her be on the podcast today, because one of the things that I really enjoyed about and it's not necessarily the most enjoyable subject, but because of the things that she has done now in her life, she is facing personal tests to prove that what she teaches and coaches is real, because she's having to go through some of it, and I know that she will talk about that a little bit later. We'll get to it. But Andra, I want to thank you for being on a stoppable mindset.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:21 Thank you so much, Michael. I'm so happy to be here, and so love what you're about and how you show up in the world, and I'm so happy to be connected with like minded people making an impact, and happy to be connected to your audience. And I hope something I share today will be of service.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 Well, I hope so, and I think that, we usually find that it is and we're we're really glad you're here to share it, which is as good as it gets. So I'd like to start by maybe learning about the early Andra growing up and so on. Why don't you tell us about some of that and kind of how that led you to maybe some of the things that you're doing now? Sure, sure.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:58 Yeah. I mean, yes, I'm the end places that I'm a coach, and I work with embodiment and energy. And I think the first years of my life were me being a very active child, being very adventurous, loving to have new experiences, very much being athletic. I was a competitive gymnast in my younger years. And yeah, I think I really enjoyed being in my body and using my body as a vehicle to sort of express myself. So, definitely active, definitely adventurous, definitely independent. And yeah, really enjoyed the experience of, yeah, going new places, seeing new people, and doing some things that challenge my body in big ways.   Michael Hingson ** 03:46 So what made you deviate from going into competitive gymnastics?   Andra Wochesen ** 03:51 Oh, I wasn't good enough. Oh, okay, yeah, I was good enough for where I was, but yeah, it was enough. I think, yeah, I think I stopped that around 11 or 12. Actually, it's quite a it's quite a vigorous sport. And yeah, I was quite aware of my capacity and my desire, actually, to, it takes a lot to get to that, to the caliber of like, Olympic athlete or something, right? So that wasn't, I wasn't good enough, and I didn't have, didn't desire to go down that path   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 well. And that's, of course, a significant part of it is there's a lot that you have to desire to do to really go down that path in whatever sport or whatever you want to compete in and be about. So I understand,   Andra Wochesen ** 04:35 yeah, yeah, yeah, that commitment and choice and yeah, I think, as you speak, about unstoppable, right? There is an element that requires so much conviction on our end to be able to really commit and follow through with whatever it is that we are wanting to follow through and commit with.   Michael Hingson ** 04:55 Well, so you say, around 11 or 12, you decided. That you weren't going to continue down that. What did you   Andra Wochesen ** 05:04 do? Oh, I mean, I continued to still be athletic and still played. I still did gymnastics. I was, you know, still quite good at it, so I did that through high school, but played a variety of other team sports. And I think, yeah, maybe define myself less on the athleticism, but still included it, and sort of brought in more of some other interests. I think that I had maybe more around, yeah, just travel friends. I mean, that's what you do in high school and university.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 So where did you go to university? I   Andra Wochesen ** 05:39 went. I'm in Canada. So I went to McMaster, yeah, which is in Hamilton. It's a great school. Now, where is that? That's in Hamilton, which is I live in Toronto now. So Hamilton is about 45 minutes away. Hamilton is between, let's say, Toronto, Niagara Falls, the main cities, you would know. So, yeah, I went to McMaster for four years for my phys ed kinese degree, and then I went to Queen's University for my teaching degree. So that's sort of my educational background.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 So you you got a teaching degree, did you want to go off and be a teacher? Or what did you want to do exactly? Or did you know   Andra Wochesen ** 06:15 I was a teacher? I did very strategically choose in my growing up, I think being athletic, I also coached teams. I also was a camp counselor, so I was very much involved in guiding other people. So I think especially in athletic pursuits, and even I mentioned this, even I did volunteer at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and was a runner for someone there, helped them run track. So I think going into teaching, and especially phys ed teaching, made perfect sense. So I did. I did do that for 10 years, and then moved on to some other things.   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 So how long ago was it that you were a runner at CNIB, that   Andra Wochesen ** 07:01 was a long time ago. That was like, 30 years ago. Yeah, yes, that was like, sort of in my, I don't know, maybe early 20s, something like that. Okay, tell,   Michael Hingson ** 07:11 tell us a little bit more about how that. I'm just curious how that process worked. So you, you worked at the you volunteered at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, and you and so people wanted to run. And how did, how did you make that work?   Andra Wochesen ** 07:26 So I was a guide runner. So I think I did a very, very I work with different people. There various people. And I think one, one of the young men really wanted to run track, and they had a big event at, I believe, was Variety Village, I believe. And so it was he wanted to do, I think it was 400 meters again, excuse me, it's been a long time. So it was a run. And so, yeah, to be able, I was a guide runner, so I ran, held his hands, but he obviously did the work and ran. But I was there as a as a runner to support that.   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 But you had to be able to run fast enough to keep up with whatever speed he was in produce, yeah, for   Andra Wochesen ** 08:05 sure, absolutely, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:09 yeah. I know people in the United States who are blind runners and do work with with people to guide. And of course, that's the whole point. But obviously, the the guides have to be in good enough physical shape also to make sure that they're able to let the person run at their own pace and hopefully set world records. I don't know who has but you know, nevertheless,   Andra Wochesen ** 08:35 yes, to let them have their full self expression right of what they were wanting to do, and your eye was just there on the side to make sure that he was able to run as fast as and get where he wanted to go and achieve the results he wanted to achieve.   Michael Hingson ** 08:52 Could when you were when you were acting as a guide. How did that work? That is to say, I'm assuming that the person couldn't necessarily run totally on their own. How did, how did you keep people running straight or where they needed to go again?   Andra Wochesen ** 09:09 It's a long time. I believe it was just hands right, and my hands in front, so that, or maybe at the side right, just so that there was a hand. There was a tactile component. It wasn't voice. It was definitely cut, so it was just more like guiding, to make sure that he was able to stay no well, he knew when to start, but to stay within the lines to be able to follow the track, and then obviously, to be able to cross the finish line.   Michael Hingson ** 09:35 Yeah, because they, they didn't have ropes or anything between lanes that he could follow. So he needed a person, or she, depending on who you guided, they needed your assistance. Because the bottom line is that the the tracks don't have ropes or anything like that to divide the various lanes. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 09:54 yes, yeah. So it was, there may be different things. Now, you know, I'm not sure, but I'm   Michael Hingson ** 09:59 aware that there are. But I'm not a runner, so   Andra Wochesen ** 10:01 yeah, yeah. So it's a very Yeah. It's a very Yeah. I've been involved in that sort of stuff, whether it's been volunteer or paid in my whole life, basically helping other people to sort of reach their goals and to fully self Express. And so I think that's, you know, definitely been a piece of what's led me to the work that I do today. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 10:27 So, so you taught, where did you teach? For 10 years,   Andra Wochesen ** 10:32 I taught mainly. I taught in middle schools. I was, yeah, thanks. So I taught grade seven and eight. Mostly grade seven, little bit of grade six. I last year I taught grade four. I taught phys ed. The whole time I was like the the head of phys ed, so I coached all the teams and organized the track meets and did things like that. But I also had an under second teachable of French. So I actually taught French as well as math and English. You know, those weren't my favorite, but I Oh, yeah, I did love teaching, yeah, phys ed and health health, actually, I loved because that's very much like, it's kind of like coaching, right? It's actually helping, yeah, I love those, those classes as well, with that age group.   Michael Hingson ** 11:16 Now, my wife, my late wife, was a teacher for 10 years, and she always said that the students she liked best were third graders, because they were old enough that they could make some decisions, but they were also young enough that they were able to be influenced, and they hadn't got so set in their ways that they were problem students like even from fourth grade on, did you have a favorite grade?   Andra Wochesen ** 11:43 Yeah, not grade seven. That's why I'm not doing it.   Michael Hingson ** 11:46 So I would agree with you,   Andra Wochesen ** 11:49 yeah, so that was the bulk of my teaching career was grade seven. So they're not easy, and they don't necessarily want to be there. So yeah, it didn't feel like the most aligned path. I was actually certified to teach high school, but it was very hard to get into high school teaching here. And I think if I would have, I probably would still be doing that, because it's a little bit more pure in the phys ed component. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:15 well, the you know, I wanted to be a teacher, and ended up going in different directions anyway, but still, I think that I do get to teach. And I think even this podcast offers teaching moments which is, which is pretty good, but I appreciate what you and Karen, my wife, say about all of that, because it is a it is a big challenge. Do you think that one of her comments and was that parents aren't really becoming as involved as they should be, and so they they kind of treat teachers like babysitters, and then the kids go home and they do whatever they're going to do, but they don't really as actively provide a lot of the guidance that they should. Did you find that up in Canada as well?   Andra Wochesen ** 13:05 I would say again, it's been 20 years now. Say that for the most part, it just really depends. Like, a lot of parents were very engaged and very and then I think, yeah, there were kids that were challenging at school because they didn't have a lot of structure or support at home. So it's a, it's a, it's a, really a. It's a privilege to be a teacher, to be taking, not necessarily taking care of people's children, but you are, on some level, being an influence for them. And so yeah, I would say for the most part, there was a lot of parental support, but I know that's not always the case, and I do think, yeah, there's some kids who had not very much parental support and required more at school.   Michael Hingson ** 13:52 Karen had challenges with a lot of kids until she realized something, and I don't even remember what caused it to happen, but she taught at a school where, as she put it, there were a lot of latch key kids. That is, they they were really responsible for themselves. The parents worked and so on. They went. The kids went home at the end of the day, and they were on their own. And when she realized that kids weren't going home necessarily to total parental supervision and so on, and that they in fact, the children were learning how to be responsible to a large degree on their own. That kind of changed her view and the way she interacted with kids, and apparently became a whole lot more effective and a whole lot more of a teacher who could exert a positive influence on the kids.   Andra Wochesen ** 14:46 That's great. I mean, I think ultimately, we're all sovereign beings, even if we're children. And I think, yeah, whatever situations we are, sort of handed Yeah, I think there's a lot of. Um growth in that, and I think being able to support that is what we're what we're here to do, whether we're a formal teacher or a guide or a podcast host, right? We're all here to sort of meet people where they're at and also in their greatness and also in their challenges, and then also in their capacity.   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 People are where they are, and we don't really have the right, much less all of the gifts to necessarily force people to change how they behave and so on. And I think the best that we can do is to try to set positive examples and and either people will see that, or kids will see that, or they won't.   Andra Wochesen ** 15:43 Yeah, one of the biggest things, and you know, it's part of the work I do now around seeing people's gifts. That's part of the akashics work that I do. But I know, even as a teacher, one of the greatest strengths that supported me was that I chose to focus on the strengths in the children and really reflect that to them, and have them see that within themselves. And everybody has different approaches. Some people would be focused on, like, you need to improve here. This needs to happen. And of course, I think we all have areas of growth and improvement, but I believe, and I've seen, I've literally been in this field for 30 years, whether it's teaching, you know, young people or adults, we I have found that most people thrive when they're recognized in their greatness and their gifts, not in their areas of weakness. How do you do that? How do I do that? So, I mean, I think I did it innately. When I was a teacher, I just intuited that that was the it's easy. We can all see people's gifts, and we can all choose to focus on those gifts. We can do that in our personal relationships. We can choose. We always get choice in terms of what we focus on. So I believe that there's we all have that innate ability, whether we exercise it or not, is is up to us. And then I have, you know, certified in some different modalities that help me help people uncover what some of those gifts are. I originally did something called the Passion Test, where I help people really distill what their true passions were. And so that's a really, really helpful tool. And then I also do Akashic Records, which is like a an energetic database, which we can talk about further if you want or not. Doesn't matter, but it's, it's a I'm able to access people's records for them and really discern what their top level gifts are, and then share that with them. And so when I'm sharing it with them, it's not usually like they have no idea they most people know what their innate gifts are, but when it's reflected in a certain way from a soul level perspective, it's a very validating experience, and it helps to reignite those gifts in people, so that they are then very self aware of what those gifts are and how they can use them to both impact their themselves and their career and their family, right? There's there's lots of ways to apply our gifts if we really tune in to what they are,   Michael Hingson ** 18:18 whether it's children or adults, there's always a lot to be said for the whole concept of validation. If you are really validating someone, especially when you're dealing with their gifts and you're validating them, you're praising them, you're encouraging them for what they are and what they do, that has to count for a lot. I would think.   Andra Wochesen ** 18:38 I think so. I think you're speaking to a deeper level than the ego or the mind. You're actually speaking to the depth of some who someone is, and they feel that. And there's a, there's a, I'm going to say, like an embodied response to that. There's a deep feeling.   Michael Hingson ** 18:56 Well, so you taught for 10 years, and then what, what made you decide to deviate from just being a professional teacher in the classroom, as it were, or or going around the field, running,   Andra Wochesen ** 19:08 yes, chair, yeah, I felt like actually had a bit of a rough I'm not, I don't need to get into that. But it was, I had a tough year about year seven or eight, and it just kind of flipped the dial for me in terms of, I'm not sure this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. So I did stick it out for a couple more years. It's a lot of education and a lot of experience that I was working with, and so I did try some different things, taught different grades, but ultimately I realized that it wasn't, it was a little soul sucking for me, and in some ways, and I knew that there was more or a better way for me to actually use the gifts that I have. And so I just, I chose to to leave, which is not that common. I know it's a little different. Different in the US in terms of teaching and salaries and things like that. In Canada, I would say it's a very, it's a very good profession to be in. It's a very, it's a good salary. It's so it wasn't easy to leave it, but my higher knowing knew that it was the right thing for me to do.   Michael Hingson ** 20:20 So what did you then go do?   Andra Wochesen ** 20:23 So then I went, I became a Pilates instructor, and so that is movement education. And so I got to use my phys ed background and my kinesiology background to work with bodies. And I also trained the new teachers. Because, yeah, I had an expertise in teaching, and so I was a trainer of teachers. So yeah, I was involved in certifying new teachers. So yeah, did that, and then I worked one on one with clients, which was a really nice change for me, coming from a classroom of 30 people, being able to work with people in a one on one capacity and just have that so that felt very Yeah, it felt very aligned for me to be able to have a one on one connection and to be able to serve people really deeply, and yeah, I didn't have to mark tests and all that kind of stuff, right?   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 There's something to be said for that, yes, for sure, and you didn't have to make out report cards at the end of the year. Yes, yes, yeah. There's a   Andra Wochesen ** 21:27 lot of work that goes in there. You know, people talk a lot about summers off, but there's a lot of stuff that happens that is quite, quite labor intensive in teaching.   Michael Hingson ** 21:37 My niece is a kindergarten teacher. Actually, this year she's teaching pre kindergarten, but she would definitely agree with you, and talks about all the things that they have to do during the summer and all the preparation and and more important nowadays, at least down here, the amount of money that she has to spend out of her own salary just to buy supplies that the school district, for whatever reason, doesn't have funding to provide, and the teachers spend a fair amount of money keeping their students engaged with the things that they have to buy, that they know that the students need, but that the district doesn't provide.   Andra Wochesen ** 22:17 Yeah, I mean, I think that just, I can't speak obviously, to your country and how you do things, or what, what the what's involved. But I think it speaks to the desire that I'm going to say, all people have to support others. But I think teachers specifically, not even specifically, but teachers do have a big passion for helping people. And so I think that just speaks to the level that they're willing to go to in order to really support the next generation. So I think there is such a there's such a gift in and I hope that more and more people will appreciate teachers, because I think it's they are very vital, I think in shaping lots of things so well.   Michael Hingson ** 23:04 I think to at least a degree, most people like to teach that is to say they, if somebody asks them a question, Will will take the time oftentimes, to answer. They'll explain why they do what they do, or they'll explain whatever the question is about. I know, when I was in professional sales and managing a sales force, one of the things that I told every person that I hired was, for the next year, at least, you're a student, don't hesitate to ask questions, because the people who are your customers and your clients, if you're asking good, intelligent questions of them, they will want to answer you and engage you, and that can only help you. And what it what you do further down the line with them as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 23:52 Yeah, I think, I believe that we're all here to light the path for those behind us in whatever way we choose to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:01 Yeah. Yeah. And it is a, it is an art to do it well. And not everybody is a great teacher, but I think a lot of people do like to import, impart knowledge, at least to some degree, which is great, sure. Yeah. So you are Pilates instructor for a while, and then what did you do? Well?   Andra Wochesen ** 24:19 Then I Yeah, again, my soul always wants to expand, and I think that I felt like it was good, but it wasn't the full use of my gifts. And so that's when I sort of went down the coaching path. I realized I liked the one on one connection. I realized I'm very intuitive in general, but very intuitive with the body. So when I was working with my Pilates clients, I was able to almost tune into sort of, I'm going to say, even emotional blocks. Or I could tune into why their bodies weren't functioning the way they wanted to function. And so it just naturally evolved into desiring to bring a coaching element into the work that I did. And so for a number of years, I did both. Growth, and then after about 15 years of being at the teaching Pilates, I decided to just transition full time to coaching. So that's what I've been doing for the last, I don't know, five or six years full time   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 well, so tell us more about that. What you do, and I know you've talked and referred to a few times the Akashic records and so on. So don't hesitate to talk about some of that as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 25:26 Yeah, I think really what I do is help people connect to their innate power and their innate presence, so that they and their deepest gifts. So those are probably the deepest things. Purpose, power, presence is sort of how I label it, and within that, it's their sole gifts, what they're here to do, what their purpose is, what they want to really contribute on the planet. That's really who I'm helping so often it's entrepreneurs, sometimes it's leaders, sometimes it's high profile people in their industry, and so really I'm helping them connect to the depth of who they are really so that they can express that in the work that they do. So for some people, yeah, it's a it's about creating a bigger presence, a bigger platform, creating more impact, getting in front of more audiences, being able to command higher fees. All of this comes from a deep connection to your own knowing of who you are and what you how you're designed to serve. And so I really that's the it's the crux of what I do is you can hopefully see the thread throughout my whole life is really around helping people connect to who they really are at their core, how, what their innate gifts are, how they want to share those gifts, and how they can use those gifts to not only create a better, more aligned or whatever, what's what I want to say, prosperous life Experience for themselves through I love working with people who want to do what they love, right? That's really people who are trailblazers, people who want to create a new path, people who want to create meaning, want to create impact. And that's it's a I love it, and it's not an easy path. And so I really help people break through anything, holding them back from really going for it, because so many people that I work with, we are blazing new paths. Right? You do have to sell yourself. You do have to make your own opportunities. You do have to create your own platform. You have to do that in your podcast, right? There's everybody is we are here to do, I think this is what we are all here to do, is to really share our gifts in the biggest way possible. And yeah, sometimes people need help to be able to show that fully and to be able to shine as brightly as they're designed to to shine so that they can, yeah, receive Yeah, bigger opportunities, bigger platforms, more ability to continue on the path that they're on.   Michael Hingson ** 28:03 Do you find that there are a number of people who don't really know where they want to go or what they want to do? They're they're kind of being a little bit more aimless than they really need to be.   Andra Wochesen ** 28:17 It's interesting. I'm sure there are. When I first started, I was more of a life purpose coach, so I did, did sort of interact with people who are kind of lost and maybe a bit directionless. And so I think absolutely there, I don't even like that word that sounds very judgmental, right, just unsure of what they want to do. And so I think absolutely there are lots of people, and what I believe, and what I see now is that people wouldn't, who come to me wouldn't say that they're lost, but they something's not quite working, or they are ready for a next iteration. I believe we're always expanding and evolving, and so is our purpose and our direction, right? And so and sometimes we're going down a path and it works out really well, and we expand it. And sometimes we're going down a path and it doesn't work out so well, or we get a roadblock, as you know, I have one right now that kind of comes into our experience, and it causes us to course correct. So I feel like there's a lot of course correction next iteration. And to me, I use the words always elevation and expansion, because I think we are designed to continually evolve and expand. And so I think it's yeah, there's, there's all levels of people on the spectrum in terms of, like, knowing what I'm going to do with my life, or how I want to share in the world   Michael Hingson ** 29:30 well. And there's nothing wrong with the whole concept of life is all about expanding and exploring.   Andra Wochesen ** 29:39 Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 there's, there's nothing wrong with that, and also developing an ongoing strong desire to learn. The people that I find the most challenging to deal with are the ones who decide they know it all and they don't have any. Thing to learn, because they probably have the most to learn.   Andra Wochesen ** 30:03 Of course, of course, yeah, there's such a gift in the openness to Yeah. I'm using the word evolve, but learn, expand, grow, all of it's the same, right? It's like, there's, there's, yeah. It's, for me, it's one of my biggest values. And I think, I think there are a lot of people who prioritize growth, and then there are other people who don't. So it's choice, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 30:31 oh, I hear you. I understand what you're saying. Tell me more about the whole concept of the Akashic records. Oh,   Andra Wochesen ** 30:37 sure, sure, yeah, of course. Yeah. So I told you we'd bring it up. Yeah. So the Akashic records are an energetic database of our soul level information, and so it's like we all have akashics, and it's, it's our soul level information we can all access, and you may even access this information yourself in a meditation, or you receive some guidance on something, but you may be actually in your Akashic records. And so our cash checks sort of have our lifetimes of like lessons of opportunities for growth. Our gifts are it's like it's literally a soul level database of information. And so you can access, we can each access our own, but I am certified to go into people's akashics with their permission, on their behalf, and sort of retrieve relevant information to support them on their life's journey. So that's really, yeah. How do you do that? Well, it's a, yeah, it's quite it's a step by step. I mean, it's a certification. So I'm really tuning in. So there's a whole series of I'm going to say, questions that I ask, and first I get someone's birth date, full name, full name, full current name, full name at birth, date of birth, place of birth, so that's really key, so that I am accessing the right soul. And then there are a series of questions that I ask to determine whether the soul wants me to access this information. And then, yeah, most of the time, I'm kind of going in with very specific questions around soul gifts. But sometimes people come to me with very specific questions, but usually it's some version of like, what's keeping me stuck or I want to get here, or how can I use my gifts in a better way? Or is this a i can even do Akashic records for businesses? So Right? Which is the most aligned business opportunity, which is the most best way to market? What I do? Right? We we have different gifts ourselves. So again, just for me, I am not designed to market, but I'm very good for people to experience me. So I I'm good when I'm on a video, or if I lead a workshop, or if I have a conversation with someone, so when people have an experience, or if they read a Client Testimonial, so that's for me, the way my soul is designed to market. Your soul might not be designed that way at all, right? And so it's really good to have we can get all of this information that actually helps us be more aligned, more successful, more prosperous, right? We can actually be like we have a blueprint. We actually have a soul blueprint that will help us do the best that we possibly can in this lifetime. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 33:31 hmm. How did you learn to do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 33:35 I mean, it was a certification process. So it was a called Soul realignment. That's where I learned, and it was a numerous, numerous courses, numerous practice clients, like any, like, all of my coaching certification, right? There's, um, yeah, there's a lot of people call them, and it's all fine. Everybody can do a lot of people will call themselves a coach, but, and people can be good coaches, but there's actually coach training that people go through. And there's hundreds and hundreds of practice client hours where you actually are learning sort of in the field, just as I did as a teacher. So yeah, it's just another one of the I'm going to say pieces that I bring to my coaching. So I just sort of integrate this all into my sessions with clients.   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Got it. So there are places where you actually take these courses, or how does that work? I   Andra Wochesen ** 34:27 have done all of my training online, okay, all of it online from all over the world, actually. Yeah, that's the beauty of the internet, right? It's, it's yeah. I've done, yeah, I've done all of my practice and some stuff in person, for sure, I've done some stuff in person, but I've done a lot of, even all of my coaching. Now, I do a few in person retreats, but most of it is virtual. Most of it is zoom coaching. And I didn't know if I would like it, but I do. It's you can actually form quite a nice connection with people via the internet, right?   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 Do you. You're able to to establish as good a connection, doing it through the internet as you would, and as you do, if you're actually conducting an in person event,   Andra Wochesen ** 35:11 you know, yes, I'd say in some ways more so, and then in some ways less so. So I think there are, there are in person, there's, there's something really beautiful in being in someone else's energy, me being in theirs, and they're being in mine, and very also hands. My hands are very, very hands on. So that can be very helpful to have that presence. But I also find online, there can be a spaciousness that actually allows people almost to open up more, because they actually have their own space. So I have, yeah, I've been doing both for years, and I enjoy both. I'm going to say that, and I don't not just about me enjoying it. The benefits for my clients are both in person and virtual, or I would say equal   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 when the pandemic began and we started doing so many things virtually, for me, personally, I never feared it, because we even in an in person environment. I'm not, I don't how do I say this in a positive way? I look at the person, I see the person, but the way I see the person is not physically, necessarily, with the eyes, in in any different way, virtually than I would if I'm doing this in person, and I find that I'm able to interact with people well through zoom. I think Zoom is the more most accessible of the various conferencing technologies is out there, but I think that if you work at it, you can establish a good relationship through zoom, and you can do the kinds of work that you need to do. Unfortunately, too many people talk about it in such a way that they fear it, or they just become tired of doing things in a way that's different than what they're used to, which is totally in person, and that's detracting them from maybe having as positive an experience as they could   Andra Wochesen ** 37:21 Yeah, I agree that's well said, and I think, I think it's always about presence. And so when, yeah, when we're connecting on the internet, it's not, it's a machine or it's, it's whatever it is, right? But it's you showing up fully, making eye contact with people, not being distracted, being fully present, which is what actually allows people to feel seen and feel heard, and I think that it also allows you to be accessing people and opportunities all over the world, right? And so I will even say, when I first started doing this, there was a lot of people, especially when I started doing working more with entrepreneurs, they're like, I'm busy. I don't really have time to, like, drive across the city and come to your office and meet with you. You know, can we do this? And so it actually is very time efficient, right? You don't have to travel you. You are able to fit lots of things into your day, right? So I think there's, there's real benefits to it. And I think again, it's ultimately how present people are a computer or in person.   Michael Hingson ** 38:37 It's, it's all about, in part, accepting a different way of doing things, perhaps than you're used to, and accepting that it may not be any less equal to do it in a different way than the way you would normally do something. That is to say, is it really worse? Is it really different to do it virtually? Or can it really be just as much an equivalent kind of thing? And I think that that is mostly a matter of what we're what we choose to accept. Now, for me, there are challenges with things like doing virtual presentations with Zoom, if people don't communicate in a way that I can fully understand, or if they're sharing screens and don't describe what's on the screen. But the reality is that's just as true if I'm sitting in an in person environment and people are displaying slides and doing other things where they don't describe it. So it comes down to the same thing you can accomplish if you do it right.   Andra Wochesen ** 39:47 Yeah, and I think it comes down like what we said before, what where your focus is? Are you focusing on the gifts of something or the negative areas? Just like we were talking about kids gifts. In school, right? So it's like, if you can see what are the benefits to this virtual experience, if your focus is there, every you know what we focus on expands and where we direct our our focus is what informs how we feel. And so I think if we are choosing to look for the benefits of whatever we are, whatever situation we're in, you'll find them right. And the more you focus on them, the more they'll expand right   Michael Hingson ** 40:28 well. So you referred a couple of times, and I did at the very beginning a little bit to, I think, as you put it, you've had some things that have challenged your path and that you've had to work through, especially as late. Want to talk about some of that.   Andra Wochesen ** 40:44 Yeah. I mean, I yeah, I had to wait until I was ready to share this piece. But I feel like part of my mission and purpose is to support, is to share my journey to support other people. And so I think there's my journey as an entrepreneur that supports people, and this is now a journey with breast cancer, and so it's a health journey that I didn't expect to be sharing with people, and I have had to, obviously decide when and how I want to share it. So, yeah, I was diagnosed in early February and so, and I have yet to have treatment. So I think the reason I thought it was important to even share this is for people even to be able to relate to anything that they receive. So I'm calling it like how to navigate a difficult diagnosis with grace. So I'm not even at the treatment stage. I'm in the unknown, and I've been in the unknown for three months now, and I have been in the known that I have cancer, so I've actually had to hold the fact that I have cancer in my body, but not have any treatment yet for three months. So there's there's something in that being able to hold the unknown and the unexpected and be able to walk my talk, right, which is to maintain my center and my groundedness within myself and not get pulled into a freak out place of like, why aren't they acting faster? Why is this taking so long? And this, is this going to be spreading because they're not doing anything? So I think there's a there's the piece around that that I think I wanted to offer and share, I think, and I think, um, yeah, it's it. What I really realized for myself is, um, I was like, Oh, I'm going to be the person who really navigates this was with grace, and I'm going to be inspirational in this. And then I really realized, and then there were days where I was like, Oh, I'm the opposite of inspirational right now. I am like, grumpy, I'm crying, I'm mad, and I'm like, and then I kind of realized that actually that is inspirational, and that is handling a difficult diagnosis. And so one of the things I do teach people is really to feel what is there and to actually tune into your body. And so I think this journey has actually, and it's just beginning, right? It's not, I'm not even meeting with a surgeon tomorrow for hopefully next steps, but I've had four biopsies, I've had a lot of things. I've had a lot of invasive procedures to determine what next steps are. And so, yeah, and so it's just finding this balance, I think, between continuing. So today, it's like, I have a client. This morning, I had another call, and then now I'm on a podcast, and then tomorrow I'm seeing the surgeon, right? So it's, it's being able to and then my husband's actually going for surgery the next day. So it's being able to navigate all of these things at once. And yeah, on some level, I want to just say, like allowing I'm really just allowing myself to be where I am, and some days I am great, and doing a podcast and coaching clients, because that fills me up. And then there are other days where I'm so angry and I'm so sad and there's some fear, and so it's and then so I feel like those two pieces, it's like allowing the hard pieces to be there, and then also having a knowing that there's a higher path and purpose for this. I don't know exactly. I already know I'm growing and expanding because of this, and I know there will be more. And then I think just the third piece I want to share is that my intuition has always been strong, but it's non negotiable now. And so I again, I'm just offering this for your listeners, right? Just tuning into how to tune into your own inner voice in terms of, what do I need right now? What treatment do I want to pursue? There's a lot of different pieces, and there are a lot of different voices that can be out there, but really the power of having this deep connection to yourself. Truth and trusting yourself to or God or spirit or source, however you want to see it, to help guide the process.   Michael Hingson ** 45:08 When you say your intuition is non negotiable, what do you mean by that?   Andra Wochesen ** 45:13 Listening to my intuitions for that would have been better way to say it. Listening to my intuition is non negotiable. So I will Intuit, if I'm able to work today, I will Intuit I've been intuiting that my body just wants citrus right now, and I'm just, I'm just giving it that, and I have actually learned that that's actually really helpful for cancer cells. So this is me intuiting this long before I heard this information. So it's tuning in and hearing this information and then acting on it. And so, yeah, I think it's it's just we all have intuition, and I think in times like this, we have to get still and get quiet and make sure that we're listening to the inner guidance that we are receiving.   Michael Hingson ** 46:01 So you say you got diagnosed in February, so it's been two months going on three. Why is it taking so long? Maybe it's not, but why is it taking so long to get treatment? Or is this typical?   Andra Wochesen ** 46:16 I don't like, I don't think there is typical. So that's one thing I would say. And I think this surgeon just wants to be very thorough. So for me personally, I mean, this is maybe too much information, but I have dense breasts, so it's very hard for him to see. He doesn't want to just go in. There is cancer there, but he needed to do other biopsies and do other testing, other MRIs to see if there was more so that he doesn't have to operate cut once or whatever they say, Right? He's like, he wants to go in and do take care of everything that needs to be taken care of, right? And so he's doing his due diligence. And so that just takes some time, right? Takes time to get in for appointments. It takes time to get results for appointments.   Michael Hingson ** 47:04 It's a it's a process. I know I can relate to, to what you're saying. I had over the past few years, and it was growing worse pain, especially in my left arm, and I finally talked to my doctor about it. I was going in to just have some standard blood draws and a couple of vaccinations in December. And I mentioned to the doctor this was going on. And I said, What do we do to try to figure this out? And he said, Well, put a couple other blood tests in just to see what, what might show up. And I find that my doctor is as a pretty bright guy, and so he didn't really go into much detail, other than we'll do blood tests and see, well, turns out that one of the blood tests that he ordered was for a heart enzyme called troponin that is produced by the heart when it's not behaving properly. And so on December 23 I learned that my troponin level was at 1100 92 when normally it should be between zero and 20. And I was taken off to an emergency room. We were actually still at the clinic getting vaccinations. When they had done the blood draws and they stat they just did them right away. They did the tests and got the results anyway. The problem was that when they when they did the tests and the blood tests, it took a day, even though they took me right to an emergency room and I sat there for a day, literally before they did an angiogram and a an echocardiogram to determine that there was a bad heart valve, and then nobody did anything with the information. And what so what they should have done was to have me sign forms to send them to my doctor, or given me copies of the CDs with the images to take to the doctor. And nobody talked about doing any of that, and nobody did any of that, and literally, it was like over a month before the doctor even got the information. And nobody seemed to be worried about it in the doctor's environment, which was at the clinic where I had all my other stuff done, or at the bigger hospital related to it. And it was just very strange, and then when they finally did get the information, even then there wasn't a lot of urgency. And for me, it wasn't a matter of being so much angry as puzzlement about why there wasn't a more of an emergency. You got a bad heart valve. It could stop anytime, right? Anyway, it. Took three months before they finally did do an operation and put in an artificial valve. So that was done in March of this year. So it was basically three months after the the initial diagnosis, and now everything is fine, but it is. I know that for me, what I chose to do was not panic. I chose not to be stressed. So during the time I was in the emergency room for that day, I found lots of ways to be entertained by listening to other people. And I had a couple things to listen to. I had recorded books and so on, but it was much more entertaining to listen to other people around me. And all the way up through the surgery, I chose not to be stressed, and it was a little bit tempting to not get too angry because they were taking so long. But still, my choice was not to be worried by all that, because that could only make matters worse. And when we did the surgery, I came right out of it, and started joking with the doctors right away, and they didn't believe that I was coming out of the anesthetic so fast, but I did and and we had a lot of fun with it, but it is, it is interesting. We do have the ability to make choices, and we can choose to move forward in a positive way or not. And I think if we don't choose to do that, and we we allow ourselves to be controlled by our fears, that's really where too many times, we have too many problems that we don't deal with nearly as well as we can.   Andra Wochesen ** 51:36 Yeah, I think choice is key, right? We have a choice what we think. We have a choice how we feel. And I do want to say I'm a big advocate of positive mindset, but I'm also a very big advocate of feeling your feelings. And so I think there's a difference between true feelings and feelings where we create a story around the feelings, and I think it's, I just really want to voice that today, in terms of people not pasting over feelings. I think there's a, yeah, there's a place for all of it. I think getting stuck in negativity or bad feelings or hard feelings is not where we want to be, but suppressing them if they're there, is also not a good place to be. And I think in fact, for me, in this I can be elevated very easily, because it's what I do for a living. But I think me being much more vocal about the challenges of this or the anger, has actually opened up a stronger conviction in me that is actually opening up more power in my expression. And so I feel I just really wanted to presence that in this moment, because I think it's really key to be yes, obviously choosing, choosing our focus and seeing. We talked about that many times today, about seeing the brightness or seeing the gifts and seeing the positives. But I do think it's really important for people to feel what they need to feel. So just wanted to presence that it's what I do all the time with people, and it's one it's what I'm doing with myself.   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 Yeah, and that's why you're walking the talk and you're succeeding. How is faith imperative when navigating challenges like life, challenges like what you're facing now?   Andra Wochesen ** 53:37 Well, I think I remember one talk you said when you were in the World Trade Center and just said, like God said to you, go here or stay calm. I mean, I don't want to misquote you, but it was, I really could feel the truth of that. And so I think there is a higher power, a higher voice, whatever you want to call it, whether it is God, source, spirit, universe, Higher Self, everybody has different language for it. And I think if we can tune in and believe that things are happening for us versus to us, or that there is guidance that's available for us, it's, I think it's what I think we needed. It's, I feel like sometimes it's the only thing that will get us through the hard times, right, is really believing in, yeah, something bigger than us in our own capacity to handle things and and I'm going to say and cultivating that especially in times of challenge. Because I think when we're in times of challenge, it's easier to lose faith. And I actually think we need to double down on faith when in our in our most challenging moments.   Michael Hingson ** 54:42 What is faith?   Andra Wochesen ** 54:46 Well, that's everybody that I can't speak to that, right? That's your I'm speaking to it in my perspective, I think faith is belief in something bigger than you. I think it's faith is. Something unseen, right, something that has not yet manifested. It's believing in something that's not yet in front of you, right? So I can and choose where to place my faith, right? And you get to choose where to place it, so Right, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 But you're continuing, even with the breast cancer and so on. You're continuing to coach, right?   Andra Wochesen ** 55:22 I am, until otherwise I've everybody in my world has to be flexible, because obviously I it's unknown for me in terms of what and I will never show up for a session when I'm not at my fullest capacity. So it just depends on, you know, what that looks like? You know, if I'm recovering from surgery, I'm going to take some time for myself. If I'm in chemotherapy, I'm probably not going to feel very good for certain days, so I'm not going to coach on those days. So it's about, again, me intuiting what I need for me and what serves me, and then making sure that anybody who comes into my world has a very good understanding of that.   Michael Hingson ** 56:03 Oh, can people who are experiencing this podcast with us today apply all of these lessons in their own lives and so on going forward?   Andra Wochesen ** 56:13 Well, I think it's like anything we talked about a lot of things, and I think it's whatever is landing with someone is what they're meant to hear. So there I, you know, very specifically, gave three things around my cancer diagnosis, which I'll reiterate, for people to apply, because I think it's like three steps see the higher perspective of whatever situation or circumstance that you're in that feels like a challenge, whether that is a work challenge, a relationship challenge, a health challenge. Number two, I think, is tuning in to your intuitive guidance, and let's say faith in that container, in that number two. And then I think number three is allowing yourself to express the humanness, which I talked about here, right? Allowing yourself to feel what you feel. Yes, choose the higher perspective when you can. But there are times where tears need to flow, or where you are angry, and it's not about taking out anger on someone else. It's about finding a tool to be able to help you release that anger or be able to express it. So there's, there's lots of things that we can do for that. So I think it's like, yeah, I hope that people can whatever situation they're going through right now that feels even if it's not challenging, it doesn't have to be challenging. But it's like, yeah, see the bigger picture. Tune into intuitive guidance and feel what's really there for you,   Michael Hingson ** 57:41 yeah, which is really important to do. I think we we never spend our we mostly don't spend nearly enough time listening to ourselves and listening to what our inner voices have to say to us that we can use. And I think it's so important to do that,   Andra Wochesen ** 57:59 yes, every day. And I think when we're faced with challenges, it's heightened. And I believe our challenges are here to I've always listened to my inner self, but I think this cancer is like, no, no, you, you're you, you're this is here for you to do it even more. And so I think our challenges are are an opportunity for that to deepen.   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 Well, since you are coaching, and you do a lot of that, if people want to reach out to you and maybe follow up on what they're hearing today, how do they do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 58:29 My website you could do is, actually, you're on LinkedIn a lot, so probably people are listening to this on LinkedIn. So Andra Wochesen is my if you look that up on LinkedIn, Andrawochesen.com, is my website,   Michael Hingson ** 58:44 why don't you spell that? If you would Sure, sure, yeah, a,   Andra Wochesen ** 58:47 An, D, R, A, W, O, C, H, E, S, E, N, and then.com and yeah, I'm also on Instagram, a little bit under Andra underscore energy, coach, so those are the three main places that I am sort of accessible, or where people can reach out.   Michael Hingson ** 59:08 Well, I hope people will reach out. I think you've offered a lot of invaluable insights, and I think there is a lot to be said for the kinds of things that we've talked about today, because we have to listen to ourselves, and mostly we probably have to learn how to listen to ourselves. And you certainly can help with that. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:31 that's a great way to say it, right? It is. It is a it's another choice, right? And it is a skill. And it is. It does require a moment to slow down, to really tune in and listen. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:42 yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here and spending an hour with us. Can you believe it's been an hour already we've had a lot of fun telling you conversation,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:52 yeah, lots of different topics, lots of different areas. And yeah, thank you for the opportunity to connect with you and. Your audience and to share my story and hopefully some inspiration or insight for those listening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 Well, we're very grateful that you took the time to do this, and I want to express my gratitude to all of you who are out there listening or watching this, and we appreciate you doing so. I hope you liked what Andrew Watson had to say today, I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. Please feel free to email me at Michael h i at accessibe.   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week

Every day, with few exceptions, I eat a handful of nuts. Usually a combination of almonds, walnuts, pecans, cashews, and pistachios. And they taste good for sure. But I'm responding mainly to research showing that consumption of nuts is related to less chronic disease. In particular, eating nuts lowers levels of inflammation related to heart disease and diabetes, and may improve cholesterol levels among other benefits. So, I saw it as welcome news that someone has just published a book about nuts, all aspects of nuts, actually. Today we're joined by NPR, food Writer Elspeth Hay author of a new book called Feed Us with Trees- nuts, and The Future of Food. And I had no idea. Nuts were so interesting until I dove in a little bit. Elspeth has gathered stories from dozens of nut growers, scientists, indigenous knowledge keepers, researchers and food professionals. She writes that humans once grew their staple crops in forest gardens of perennial nuts, such as oaks, chestnuts, and hazelnuts in these species. Particularly important to the environment as well as to human wellbeing. Interview Summary Elspeth, thanks so much for joining us and for writing such an amazing book. Thank you so much for having me. And it sounds like you have the same habit as my dad. He makes sure to eat a little bit of mixed nuts every night, ever since I can remember for his health. Let's start by having you describe your book. Tell us about Feed us with Trees. Why did you write it and what's it about? I wrote it because I've been reporting on food in the environment for a long time, a little more than 15 years. And I had never heard anyone mention anything about eating acorns until a few years ago. And someone sent me a TEDx talk by a woman in Greece named Marcie Mayer, and she said, you can eat acorns. And not only that, but they're a super food nutritionally, and one of humanity's oldest foods. And I live in this giant oak forest that's protected on Cape Cod as part of the Cape Cod National Seashore. And I had always seen this forest as a sort of impediment to local food production, right? There's all this land that can't be farmed. And all that time, it turns out there was food literally raining down on my roof, underfoot in my driveway, and I just wasn't equipped to see it. The stories that I had grown up with hadn't mentioned that. And so that was a real eyeopener for me and I just couldn't stop thinking about it and I kept researching. So, have you started consuming acorns? I have, yes. I've collected them the past probably five falls and, you know, oaks do something called masting. Some years they have a really big production and some years smaller production. Some years I've gotten more than others. But I have started processing them at home and experimenting with different ways of using the flour. And I've also ordered online acorn oil. There are actually three food products that you can make from acorns. You can make starch, which works just like corn starch or potato starch. Thickens things. You can make flour and with some species you can make oil. It's actually a pretty diverse crop. That's so interesting. You know, I have a series of oak trees right outside my window and I never thought that they might be producing food I could consume. It's so interesting to hear your history with that. Yes, I mean I had no idea. And it turns out that actually acorns are very similar to olives in the way that they need to be processed. They're very high in these compounds that are very bitter, called tannins, just like an olive. I had the experience once of going to Italy with my husband, and we saw this olive grove and we thought, oh cool. Olives growing right here. And we picked one off the tree and he put his in his mouth and immediately spat it out and said, oh, that's awful. Tannins are not something that we want to eat. They don't taste good, but obviously they haven't hampered the olives rise to glory in terms of a human food source. And Acorns need the same kind of processing. So, tannins are water soluble. You pull them out with water. You know, you always get olives in brine, right? And so Yes, just started learning more about how to work with them and then also more about our relationship with oak trees. And I started seeing them differently in that light too. Going from sort of the species that I'd always seen as natural and wild and better off without humans, to actually understanding that we have a really long history with oak trees and in some places, they actually really depend on us. So that was total game changer for me. There's more to the story than oaks and acorns. Tell us what you learned about the history of humans eating nuts like acorns, but also things like chestnuts and hazelnut. Yes, I was really surprised. At first, I thought, okay, this is going to be an isolated thing where some people in really hilly areas or areas that aren't good for row crops are eating these nuts as staple foods. But when I looked back, actually all over the Northern Hemisphere in a huge variety of cultures, people have been in relationship with these nut trees as a staple food for a lot of the past 12,000 years. So, there's records in Japan of this ancient society that was sort of the first known chestnut cultivators in Japan. The burr size increased a lot. The nut size increased a lot during that early era of cultivation. There's a really interesting history of chestnut cultivation throughout Europe during what we call the quote unquote dark ages, although I'm starting to think maybe it was lighter than we thought during that time. There was a lot of cool stuff happening with Agroforestry. And in some areas of Europe, people ate an average of 330 pounds of chestnuts per person, per year. To put that in perspective, today, the average American eats about 150 pounds of grains per person per year. So that is a pretty serious level of chestnut consumption. You know, it's called in some places the bread tree. And I just started finding all these examples. There was a time in the British Isles known as the Nut Age, between about 7,000 and 5,000 years ago. There were just all these examples of different people at different times tending to these trees and harvesting a huge amount of food from them. You've written that trees like oaks and chestnut and hazels and also humans are what ecologists call keystone species. Yes. Tell us what you mean by that and how such species play an outsized role in local ecosystems. So, a keystone species, the first time I ever heard of them I think I was in Jamaica, and someone was talking about the sea urchins on the reef and the beach there. And it turned out that when they disappeared, for a variety of reasons, this whole ecosystem fell apart. And there's different types of keystone species, but a keystone species is as important to its ecosystem as the keystone in a Roman arch, right? So, if you pull that keystone out, you have this cascade of effects where everything kind of falls apart. And oaks are a huge life support tree. I don't know if listeners have heard of the work of entomologist, Doug Tallamy. He's done some really interesting studies on different families of plants and how much life they support by looking at insects. And in most counties where they occur, oaks are the top life support plant in North America. They're this incredibly important basis of the food chain. They provide food for a ton of insects. Those insects in turn feed birds and mammals and other creatures. And you know, at first as I am learning all this, I thought, okay, great oaks are important. Well, you know, I kind of already knew that, but that's exciting that we can eat from them. But then I started getting to know some fire practitioners. Especially an indigenous man in present day Northern California named Ron Reed. And he's a member of the Karuk Tribe there. And he started telling me about the relationship between cultural fire, prescribed fire, and oak trees. And what I learned is that oaks and human fire have actually been in relationship for millennia. And there's this whole, on the east coast, this hypothesis called the Oak Fire Hypothesis. And most ecologists that I've spoken with ascribe to it and believe that the reason that white oak and hickory have been this sort of dominant forest type through a lot of Eastern North America for the past 9,000 years, despite some really dramatic climate changes, is because humans have burned to keep them dominant on the landscape. And that in doing that we actually play a role as a keystone species too, right? So, if our fire is supporting this incredibly important keystone species, oaks, and other nut trees, we're in the category that they call ecosystem engineers. Mm-hmm. So, a beaver is an example of an ecosystem engineer, right? You take the beaver out of the wetland and the whole thing falls apart. And a lot of fire historians and ecologists see us as the fire animal. And historically, in a lot of different ecosystems, that has been our largest and most important role is creating ecosystems for other wildlife habitat, for other wildlife, with fire. So, it sounds like there was a time in human history when humans would selectively burn other things in order to protect these trees. Yes, and truly not just these trees. If you look at other places, other continents, there's human burning in Australia, there's human burning in the Amazon, there's tons of examples. But around here where I live, at least in New England and in the East, fire has been used intentionally to keep these nut trees dominant. Because what happens is. oaks are a mid-succession species. If folks don't know a lot about succession, early is like bare dirt, right? When we have an open field that's been plowed up, that's the beginning of succession. And then it proceeds all the way to an old growth forest. And oaks, if they get shaded out, they're not a particularly shade tolerant species. So, a lot of these nut trees like that kind of middle, sweet spot of succession. Where it's still a little open, there's still plenty of sun for regeneration. And so that can be intentionally preserved with fire or with other methods. But that's been a major one historically. Well, that's so interesting. In your book, you draw a comparison between the yield from these trees to more modern agriculture or industrial farming of things like corn and soybeans. That tell us about that. That's a very interesting point to make. Yes. I spent a lot of time on what I started calling the yield thing because it seemed really important, right? If these trees are actually a viable alternative to the industrial monocultures that we're struggling to maintain, well then, they need to really feed us, right? There needs to be enough food. And there are a number of different ways to look at it. I think, you know, one thing that we don't talk about a lot is when we talk about a monoculture of corn, for instance, I think the record, I'm not going to remember the exact statistics. But the average is maybe12,000 tons per acre or something. But there have been these huge records, and what we don't talk about is that yield is a ratio, right? If land is the limiting factor for us to produce food. And we're just talking about what's coming off this one acre, but we're not talking about the land it took to produce the fertilizer. We're not talking about the land it took to produce the tractor or the fuel or all these other inputs. And when you factor those in, those high yields completely disappear. When we actually look at how much land we need to produce food, an ecosystem based on these keystone trees will always produce the most because they produce the most life, right? And, you know, we tend to get caught up in other measures, but ultimately life comes from photosynthesis and these relationships between different species. And when you have a piece of land that is producing an abundance of life, you also have an abundance of food. And I broke the yield question down in a lot of different ways, but there have been some direct comparisons between oak savannah versus cornfield ecosystems and the amount of photosynthesis and food production that's happening. And the oak ecosystems, I mean, if you just think about the size of an oak tree and its photosynthetic capacity versus the sort of short grass, it can do a lot more. Well, if you happen to park your car under an oak tree, you get a good sense of exactly how many acorns one can produce. Yes, it's quite a bit. And actually, another cool thing about acorns, is that because of the tannins, which are kind of a pain, right, for processing. People often wish they didn't have these tannins. But tannins are an incredible preservative. So, from a food security standpoint, if you gather some acorns and you dry them out a little, just by letting them sit in an airy, dry spot, they can store for decades. So, even if the acorn production isn't consistent year to year, like say a hazelnut or a chestnut or a field of corn might be. Those fluctuations are not as big of a deal because of that food security potential. There's a lot of different ways to break it down. But I was a skeptic, a yield skeptic. And by the end of the research, I felt quite confident in saying that these trees produce plenty and it's definitely not a yield issue why we moved away from them. Well, I'm glad you decided to dive into the yield thing because it's actually very interesting once you get into it. Let's talk about something else that you wrote about. A little-known part of US history. You wrote that in the not-so-distant past, the US government considered keystone nut trees as a solution to some of our biggest environmental and economic challenges. I had no idea about that. Tell us about it and what happened. I had no idea either. When I first started researching the book, I went on this trip through Appalachia talking to different people who had some knowledge of this stand of trees that was planted in between the late 1920s and the 1960s by a guy named John Hershey. And I just thought, oh, cool, I'll go see these old nut trees. This sounds really interesting. But what I learned when I got there and started talking to the folks who had found where the trees were and were sort of caretaking them, was that Hershey was part of, Roosevelt's depression recovery plan. And he had this experimental fruit and nut tree nursery where he had ads in the newspaper and people all over the eastern seaboard were sending in entries of their best nut seeds, best trees. He got these genetics that probably represented, you know, hundreds if not thousands of years of human breeding in the east. And he started planting these experimental nurseries. And as part of Roosevelt's tree army, not only were they planting trees to try to prevent erosion and reforest areas that have been cut over. They were also planting these nut trees and seeing them as a really viable solution to hunger, to environmental crises, and to reviving rural economies. And unfortunately, Hershey ended up getting cancer. His other buddy who was doing the program with him got in a fight with one of the Roosevelt administrators, and the program fell apart. Also, World War II began. So that was another reason that things kind of fell apart. But for a moment there it was at the highest levels of government. The officials saw, wow, this could actually solve a lot of problems at once. And I think it's a bummer that it didn't catch on then. But it's not too late now. We still have a lot of problems as we unfortunately all know. And these trees still offer a lot of solutions. So given the long human history of this, the story of indigenous cultures becomes really fascinating. And you've talked about how the indigenous cultures tended oak trees and other trees with what you called forest farming. And I'm interested in that concept and if you would tell us what that means and also, why haven't these things caught on? And why don't most Americans eat acorns or even know that one can eat them? So, the history of forest farming in the US is pretty long and violent. Our government has pursued a policy of trying to eradicate a lot of these indigenous food production systems because people are easier to control when they're hungry and when they don't have access to the resources that they need. We often talk about our industrial style of farming that we have today as inevitable, right? Oh, well, these older methods didn't produce enough food and so we had to transition from quote unquote hunting and gathering to farming. And what I found as I looked through the history is that is a completely made-up story. Instead, what was happening is that as Euro-American colonists kept trying to expand our land base, you know, kept trying to move West, force into new areas, is that it was very hard to gain access to more land without also using violence and a tactic that, some historians have called a feed fight. Targeting indigenous food production and then forcing survivors to assimilate into grain crop culture. And that, we've been told was because it was a way of producing more food. But in fact, often it yielded less food and was actually a war tactic. And there's a lot of talk right now about regenerative farming and there's also a lot of talk about racial healing and having real conversations about racial history in the US and trying to move forward. And I think that this food aspect is really key to that conversation. And if we want to build a better future, it's something that we really have to reckon with and talk about, you know? We can't change what happened, but we also can't move forward without knowing what happened and really understanding it. So interesting how the history of this particular food was so shaped by politics, colonialism, things like that. And also by things like Mr. Hershey getting cancer and, you know, his, his colleague having a fight. I mean, it's just an incredibly interesting history and it's too bad that it played out like it did for a million tragic reasons. But whoa, that's interesting. I found some of the historic literature just totally confounding and fascinating because there would be, you know, sometimes the same people would be commenting on how they'd gotten to present day California. You know, these Euro-American soldier, settlers, they got there. They couldn't believe how much food there was. You know, wild geese, as far as you can see, wild oats as far as you can see, salmon filling up the rivers. And then in the same letter sometimes saying these indigenous people don't know how to produce food. They have nothing to eat. It was a really important reminder to me of the importance of stories and the stories that we internalize. Because I can now think of examples in my own life of, you know, I live in this national park and on the website of the National Park, there's one page about the importance of human fire in the ecosystem of this place over the past 10,000 years. And on another page of the same website, there's a description of this natural, pristine wilderness, that is supposedly also here. Of course, those two things can't really both be true. But until I started learning all this about oaks and these other trees, that didn't set off any alarm bells in my head. And we all have internalized narratives that we forget to question. For me, for whatever reason, these acorns have been this huge opener of like, okay, what else am I missing? What else do I need to reexamine about the stories around food that I've grown up with and the stories around our relationship with the living world around us. Because there's a lot of layers there to unpack. Well, there sure are. One other thing I wanted to ask you about, because you brought up this issue earlier of forest succession. And in that context, tree pruning is an interesting topic. And you write that tree pruning, this could happen by fire, or it could also happen with other things like pollarding. I didn't know what pollarding was. But those could hold some surprising opportunities when it comes to food production and climate change. And you write that regularly pruned and burned landscapes aren't like the typical old growth forest that we often associate with climate solutions. So why is this? So, we often think of old growth forests as simply a forest that looks really old, right? The trees are tall and they're broad. And there are forests that can be really old but can be in an earlier stage of succession. So, what happens with a lot of these interactions over time where people are either burning or coppicing or pollarding, which I'll define for your listeners. Because I also had no idea what those words meant when I first started researching. But coppicing is where you cut a woody plant back to the ground year after year. It could be every year. It could be in a rotation of every eight or 15 or 20 years to produce new stems. Like it's a plant that will resprout. And pollarding is the same idea but was often done in systems where livestock were also involved. You're cutting much higher off the ground, typically above animal head height, so that they can't graze those tasty young shoots. And there are a lot of traditionally managed forests in Europe that have been managed with coppice and pollard. What's happening is when we produce food in a farm field, right? We're taking succession back to zero every year. We're re plowing the field. Every time we do that the carbon that the plants had stored in their roots and had sent down to the soil gets burped back out into the atmosphere. I talked to a great soil scientist about this, and he was just like, oh, it's carbon dioxide burps everywhere. It's awful. But when we work with these woody plants where you're not taking out the roots, you're not taking out the trunk necessarily, if you're pollarding, right? You're leaving these trees. And these trees can get really old and really big around the trunk, and then they're getting pruned up top and sending out these new shoots. It is more like giving the plant a haircut. You're not killing it back. You're not losing all that carbon that's stored in the soil. And you're kind of renewing its youth and vigor. There are some studies indicating that trees that are coppiced and pollarded can actually live longer than trees with no human interaction. And so, there's this really fine line between, you know, too much interference where we're messing up the succession cycle of the forest and taking it back to zero. And maybe some interference, but not going all the way back to zero. And that has huge climate implications. Bio Elspeth Hay is the author and creator of Feed Us with Trees and the Local Food Report on NPR, and proponent of place-based living. Deeply immersed in her own local-food system, Elspeth's work focuses on food, the environment, and the people, places, and ideas that feed us. She spent the past 15+ years interviewing local food producers, harvesters, processors, cooks, policymakers and visionaries about what it means to be human and live thoughtfully in place. In the process, she's come to understand that we humans are, in fact, perfectly adapted to a wide range of places—and to believe that reconnecting with our home ecosystems is both the great challenge and great joy of our times. In addition to her work as a writer and public radio host, Elspeth is deeply immersed in the local food system of her own home community of Wellfleet, MA on the Outer Cape. She is part of the team behind the Wicked Oyster restaurant in Wellfleet, a co-founder of the Wellfleet Farmers Market, co-founder of the newly launched Commons Keepers, and a passionate student and teacher of place-based living.

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Dis-moi mon bouchon: comment préfères-tu être perçu-e par tes clients et tes prospects? a) Comme un prestataire, disponible à la demande, qui fait ce qu'on lui demande de faire? b) OU comme un partenaire, qui résout des problèmes et qui contribue à la croissance de leur entreprise? “Facile Marine, réponse b…” Bon, alors il est temps de construire tes offres de service. Dans cette MM, je t'explique ce que cela signifie et par quoi commencer. Tu me diras où tu en es par rapport à tout ça? (Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

A new tax bill has officially passed (you've probably heard it mentioned as the “Big Beautiful Bill”). And while most headlines are focused on politics, we're focused on what it means for your retirement. The choices you make in the next year or two could have a significant impact on how much you keep and how much goes to Uncle Sam.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:    Marc: This week on Plan With the Tax Man, let's talk about the Big, Beautiful Bill and what it means for your retirement. We'll stay away from the politics as much as humanly possible and just focus on what it might mean in the choices that you may make in the next couple of years. Let's get into it.   Hey everybody, welcome into the podcast. This is Plan With the Tax Man with Tony Morrow and myself to talk investing, finance and a retirement with Tony, who is Des Moines Professional Alternative at Tax Doctor Inc. He's a CPA, CFP and an EA of 30 years plus in the industry, and a great resource for you to tap into.   And Tony, this week we're going to talk about... It's been a couple of weeks now and we're going to talk about the BBB or the OBBBB as the One Big Beautiful Bill. But you know, it's kind of funny. I think at first when we heard that, I think we thought that was just like the media name, but that's actually the bill's name. I was expecting it to be like OBB753624, some crazy number or whatever. But nope, it's One Big Beautiful Bill. So how you doing, buddy?   Tony: I've been good. Wrapping up the summer and hot here and here, we're getting ready for the state fair. So that's a big thing around here.   Marc: Yeah.   Tony: Yeah. Things are going good.   Marc: Well, good. Well, let's talk about this. Like I said, we'll try to stay off of the political stuff as much as we can. I mean, unfortunately, everything is trying to frame every piece of a conversation with some sort of a slant. And I will say, the only piece I'll say about this is that there's a lot of this helps billionaires and blah, blah, blah. And when you really look at some of the stuff we're going to cover today, it really doesn't. It's actually really kind of low and middle income families who actually get some of this extended stuff, at least a lot of the things that are going to affect most people. Right?   Tony: That's right. Yeah.   Marc: So we'll just dive into it. We'll kind of get started. So first of all, the tax brackets, which is the big piece, have been extended. You and I have been talking about that for a couple months now. When you're talking about planning and strategizing, we were waiting to see would the TCJA, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act from 2017, expire or would they get extended? Well, they got extended.   Tony: They got extended and they are supposedly... And we have to address this because you're going to hear a lot of stuff in the news and whatnot about this and that tax cut or brackets being now permanent, and hopefully, everybody knows that permanent only means that they just won't expire. But-   Marc: Right. In Washington-   Tony: Congress can change them.   Marc: Yeah. In Washington, permanent is not an actual word I don't think. Yeah.   Tony: It isn't. So I wish they wouldn't throw that around. But from this standpoint right now, they're not going to expire until Congress changes them.   Marc: A future Congress would have to pass a bill, basically.   Tony: Yeah. So you have to do that. But it is good news because now people from all income aspects can kind of plan. Obviously, the higher income is probably more concerned because they can do maybe a little more, but this is going to benefit people because all across the board, we're not going to have to worry about tax rates going up for right now.   Marc: Yeah. The seven brackets, Tony, they're staying the same through at least probably 2028, right?   Tony: At least. Yeah. At least.   Marc: Right. So we got what? 10, 12, 22, 24, 32, 35, and 37. Those are the tax brackets.   Tony: That is correct. Yeah. I always have to look them up now. Because there's so many, and they're constantly adjusting them a little bit for inflation. But I think that as far as how you can take advantage of that any more than you already have is we always try to get our clients to use up the bracket that they're in. It's important that they know what bracket they're in, which is their marginal bracket, because that is the bracket that the last dollar of income that's going to be taxed on. So anything we can do to fill up that bracket-   Marc: Can you explain that a little bit? Because I think people get confused by that, right? So they think, okay, let's say I'm in the 22, and so I'm afraid I'm going to do this or this and I'm going to move to the 24. But when you get moved up a bracket, it doesn't mean every dollar that came in moves to the 24, correct?   Tony: That's correct. Yeah. And a lot of people tend to forget when we'll pull out the brackets and the ranges that this is a progressive tax system. Certain amounts of income are starting out taxed at 10 and then the next is 12 and on and on and on. We talk about marginal bracket because if you're in the... Let's say I spout out, you're in the 22% bracket, that means any more of your income that you bring in that year over a certain amount is going to be taxed at 22%, but the first parts weren't taxed at 22%.   Marc: Correct.   Tony: Just the latest. And so it's really a good tactic for using Roth IRAs or Roth conversions-   Marc: And we'll talk about that yeah, a little bit later too. Yeah. But that's a good piece of that. I mean, overall extending this, from a planner's standpoint, which obviously you're a planner, that's useful. Yeah?   Tony: I think it's useful because now we can go with people and we can, I think with more accuracy, determine what their future taxes are going to be on some of this stuff and how we want them to take advantage of that and invest for retirement. I mean-   Marc: Yeah, for sure.   Tony: On a nation standpoint, well, again, we don't want to get into politics and all that as far as spending and cutting and this and that. But all we can do is take advantage of what they give us regardless of who's in there.   Marc: Yeah, true. And so probably up until '28 we'll have this in place, and some of these pieces that they passed also do have time expirations on them as well, and we'll talk more about that here in just a second. But again, there seems to be a lot of confusion around it. So that's the first big takeaway is that, hey, we are at historically low tax rates. So that's a win for most people. We'll see how it plays out in the long run, but for right now, that's the advantage we can take from it.   The standard deduction was also "made permanent" right, Tony? And honestly, it's pretty hefty. Check this out. I was going to run this past you, see what you thought. If you kind of break this down a little bit, Tony, so it's what? The standard deduction is... Let just find my note here. Where'd it go? Okay, so the standard deduction for a married couple, it's 31,500 base for 2025. That's pretty hefty.   Tony: That's hefty. And a lot of clients, that at least we see, may not be able to have enough itemized deductions to get over that, but at least it is. It's hefty. So you're not being penalized what I would say so much, but it is making it a little bit simpler for some Americans to just take the standard deduction. However, I think what we're going to talk about next will come into play this year where it hasn't come into play and that's the SALT cap because some people might be able to itemize now. But again, it's important to make that distinction.   Marc: Yeah, for sure. Well, I'll tell you what. I'm going to move it around a little bit. Let's talk about the SALT cap after we talk about some of the other deductions that kind of go along with the standard. Okay? So we got the standard deduction. It's 15,750 for a single person, single filer. 31,500 for a married couple.   Now, what they did for a lot of our listening audiences is the whole conversation and the kerfluffle around no tax on Social Security. That didn't happen. They did their bartering and all that stuff and people wanted to get this, and some people wanted to get that. And what they settled on, Tony, was this additional $6,000 per person over the age of 65.   Now, here's where I think people get confused. So the existing law gives you that additional standard deduction of $2,000 per person if you're over 65. Then this new temporary, from 2025 to 2028, senior deduction they're calling it is another 6,000 for single filers or 12,000 for married couples. So if you add these together, the 31,500... Let's say you're a married couple. 31,500 base deduction, the 3,200 age-based existing law deduction for married couples, plus the $12,000 bonus that's temporary through 2028, that's $46,700 of deductions can be pretty hard to itemize.   Tony: It's going to be pretty hard to itemize for seniors. Yes.   Marc: That's pretty great.   Tony: For sure. I mean, that is good.   Marc: 65 and over again, right?   Tony: Yeah, 65 and over. Now, what you got to remember though is that it's not... And I've already started to hear it. They're not eliminating taxes on Social Security.   Marc: Correct.   Tony: You still are paying taxes on your Social Security. It's just that they're extending a deduction. So it's in the ballpark. I mean, your taxes will be cut by whatever tax rate you're in with this deduction. And so-   Marc: It's kind of like a semantic word. It's almost a semantic math problem. Now, there are income limitations on this, we should say. For some people, it is like you're not going to be paying the tax on your Social Security, but not for everybody.   Tony: Not for everybody, but yeah for a lot of people, especially the people that are more Social Security heavy as far as driven with their retirement income, you may not be paying taxes at all now or very little. They will go down.   Marc: Yeah. So I guess we should explain the phase out. So how it works is if your MAGI, your modified adjusted gross income, is 75,000 for singles and 150, that's when it starts to phase. Does it mean you're cut off? It's not like a cliff, right?   Tony: It's not like a cliff.   Marc: At 150 for couples, it's not cut off, but at $250,000 of income, that's when it does cut off. So 150 to 250, you're kind of like percentages are going down, correct?   Tony: That's correct.   Marc: Okay.   Tony: Yeah, that's correct. And then the people that are over 250, obviously I think probably the theory there is, well, they don't need this extra deduction. So you're not getting it basically.   Marc: Right. Right.   Tony: So you're not getting that tax cut.   Marc: And so that really does benefit lower and middle income families, retirees.   Tony: For a lot of them definitely. Definitely. I think we're going to see a lot of our senior tax clients and the financial planning clients, their tax bill is going to go down with that.   Marc: Yeah. Now, the goofy part unfortunately was what was the IRS or whoever sent that thing out at first saying that it was no tax? And then they was like, okay, got all kind of confused and people got a little misnomer there. So we wanted to make sure we kind of explained that. They're kind of calling it the senior citizen deduction. As I said, it's 6,000 per person. Of course, $12,000 if you're married, and it's only for folks over 65 and again, within those monetary thresholds.   Now, to your point, let's back up a little bit and go to the SALT cap again, the bargaining chip I think when all these congressmen and senators and women are all chatting. It's like, well, I want this and I want that. They get this plan together. This happens with every bill for everything. We all know that's what they do. And you know that the higher income states were like, hey, California and New York and New Jersey and some other states were like, we need to raise the SALT. So explain what the SALT tax is and all that stuff.   Tony: So the SALT tax is short for what they did with the state and local income taxes and your property taxes back with the Tax Act of 2017. They basically put a limit on that deduction that you can not deduct any more than $10,000 in that whole area of your Schedule A, which is really your state and local income tax, your property tax, your car license fees and sales tax.   And so for those high tax states and those big states like California and New York, you're talking property values... I mean, some of those people's property tax alone might've been 30 to 50,000.   Marc: Yeah. I think Jersey's even higher than California, if I'm not mistaken. But Jersey's pretty high too. Yeah.   Tony: So I mean, all the really high income earners have large, large homes and properties have been crying for several years because they always could itemize drastically and now that was cut way down for them. So they have expanded this to I believe it's 40,000.   Marc: It's 40. Yep. Mm-hmm.   Tony: And there are some limits I believe on that too, and I can't remember what they are. But that is going to be a help to people that might not have been able to itemize before that might be able to now. Again-   Marc: Yeah. I feel like that's going to be your higher income earners though, Tony,   Tony: It is.   Marc: And by the way, yes, you're correct on the limits on that. The SALT deduction cap phases out between a half million and 600,000.   Tony: Okay.   Marc: Yeah. So it's fairly up there. So if you're itemizing, you're probably fairly well off.   Tony: You're probably fairly well off. Yeah. It just gives a little bit to the higher income earner, especially in the higher property tax states and whatnot, and income tax states to be able to deduct all that where they were limited severely here in the past. And we have a couple of tax clients that live in these states. They're making a half million, million bucks a year as a W2'd employee. So they're phased out of everything. It's those people that were really getting hurt. So this will help some as well.   Marc: Yeah, for sure. And before we move on to just the strategy of things and stuff, I did want to point out that there's also that new charitable deduction for standard filers. So if you can't itemize, back to my point a minute ago, we're talking like 30 plus grand of standard deductions going on, so a lot of people will not hit the itemizing level. They added this new little in 2026, Tony, where you can, for singles, it's only $1000, but still it's $1,000. And for married couples, it's $2000, but you can still do charitable donations without the itemizing.   Tony: Without the itemizing.   Marc: So it's not a ton of money, but it still comes off of your top income line. And if you're charitable minded, that's a great thing.   Tony: That's a great thing. I mean, even at $2000, let's say you're in the 20% bracket, it's $400 of an actual tax reduction. And again, you want to take everything they're going to give you and you don't want to leave anything on the table. So that does help with the charitable giving as well.   And back to the point of the higher income people, the charitable giving, they're giving a lot more anyway, so they're already itemizing. So that doesn't really do anything for them, but it does give the average person, if they're doing it anyway, at least they get a little bit of deduction where before they didn't.   Marc: Yeah, true. True. And this is an above the line deduction, correct?   Tony: Above the line. So they don't have to itemize.   Marc: Yeah.   Tony: Yeah.   Marc: Okay. All right, so then let's talk about also charitable giving and the Roth opportunities. So we kind of started that little piece of that earlier. Coming back to that now. The fact that you now have more runway, Tony as a planner, if Rothing over time was something that was maybe on someone's radar to do and they were worried, well, are they going to extend the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act or not? Or were the tax rates going to go up? That kind of changed that scenario, but now that we know that it's going to be that way for maybe the next four years, then hey, Roth opportunities are still alive.   Tony: They're very much alive. Our clients especially using backdoor Roths for higher incomes, for us, we're basically telling clients, let's make sure we're filling up these brackets and getting everything into a Roth as we can before they change something on that loophole. But I think in this tax situation, especially in the planning area as far as evaluating what to do now versus later, I think that's where people like us come and play where we can provide a lot of value in that area. It's not talking all about just choosing investments, is how can we cut your tax bill and continue to save for retirement tax efficiently.   Marc: Yeah. I mean, I think that's going to be the name of the game for most people is how do we maximize... Especially for four years, right?   Tony: Four years.   Marc: We know that politically it is what it is and in four years, depending on what happens with elections, another administration could come in and try to wipe out everything that this administration did. Who knows. So be efficient and take advantage of things right now while you can. And we'll wrap it up with any other things in there that caught your eye that you thought were interesting that you might want to share with the listeners?   Tony: I think one was, and nobody really is talking about it yet and it doesn't help a whole lot of people, and I don't know if I really agree with it, but I think it's important to get it out there. And that is they're allowing auto loan interest to be deducted again above the line. So you do not have to itemize to get this deduction. However, there's a lot of limits in it. It's got to be purchased this year, it's got to be new. There's phase outs for the deduction on income, but everybody's buying a car [inaudible 00:17:06]-   Marc: Yeah, it's like 10 grand too, isn't it? It's pretty-   Tony: Yeah, it's up there.   Marc: Yeah.   Tony: And so if you're out buying that, you're going to have an incentive to...   Marc: Well, that was the point. Yeah. that was the point, right? Because what is it, final assembly in the US? Which I'm curious as to what the breakdown on that is. Is it like 40% of the car has to be assembled here or what?   Tony: Exactly. I think that's interesting.   Marc: Yeah, for sure.   Tony: And it'll be interesting to see how they try to police that for people that might press that a little bit.   Marc: Great point. Yeah. Well, in that same car vein, Tony, I think it is again, part of that initiative to promote American business and growth and help our economy. Because on the same side, the EV credit is going away. So if on your radar for your retirement strategy, if you're getting close to retirement this year was to get a new car like many retirees do when they first get to retirement, keep in mind that the EV credit goes away in September. So just a little over a month or so from now.   Tony: Yeah. I think one last one though is the no tax on tips up to $25,000.   Marc: Might not help a lot of our listeners or your clients, but maybe their kids or grandkids.   Tony: Yeah. I mean, it's going to help a certain segment to a point. I actually had, believe it or not, somebody already called me up, and this was a business client, they're already thinking, and hopefully they don't do this. But they were asking about, well, why don't I just convert all my employees to 1099s and they can basically claim tip income?   So the IRS has got rules on that. It's got to be W2. They got to be reported tips. So if you're a tipped employee and it's got to be in the service industry that normally receives tips, can't be somebody out on the road truck driver or something like that. Don't get too cute with some of this stuff and trying to push the limits and trying to outthink things, because you're going to get yourself in trouble. I know the IRS is having some issues now with staffing and whatnot, but I would recommend highly do not try to do any of that. And there's already stuff out on the internet talking about ways, which I think are already, they strike me as illegal. So don't fall for that. Make sure you ask your advisor.   Marc: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We want to still stay above board with this stuff.   Tony: Got to stay above the board.   Marc: Yeah. Especially with some of that stuff. But yeah, I mean, it could be beneficial for folks in those industries doing things the right way. So good stuff. I mean, look, Tony, at the end of the day, the tax bill didn't shake the system to its core, but it did provide a decent amount of change to help in a lot of areas, especially for retirees and pre-retirees to take advantage of. So again, the window's kind of short to act. A lot of this stuff kicks in either this year or the first of next year, and it expires at the end of '28, going probably into '29. Unless of course Congress does something different. But more than likely, this all stands until there's a new administration and then they rule some kind of changes or whatever. So the takeaway, be proactive, right?   Tony: Right. Be proactive, talk with your advisor, see which deductions might apply to your situation both for taxes and retirement planning. And then just modify the plan as you go and try to take advantage of anything you can.   Marc: Absolutely. Yeah, and that's a great point. And when working with someone like yourself, Tony, who's doing both sides of that, both sides of the aisle if you will, if you'll pardon the pun, you've got the planning side as well as the tax side. So it's really helpful to have both of those things under one roof. So reach out to Tony if you've got some questions, need some help. Get yourself onto the calendar so that you can Plan With the Tax Man at 844-707-7381. 844-707-7381. Or of course, visit him online@ at Yourplanningpros.com. That is Yourplanningpros.com. And don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify or whatever podcasting app you enjoy using. We'll see you next time here on Plan With the Tax Man with Tony Morrow. Thanks, Tony.   Tony: All right, take care.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

In the first of a two-part episode, Lisa Shalett, our Wealth Management CIO, and Andrew Sheets, our Head of Corporate Credit Research, discuss whether the era of “American Exceptionalism” is ending and how investors should prepare for a global market rebalancing. Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Andrew Sheets: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Andrew Sheets, Head of Corporate Credit Research at Morgan Stanley. Lisa Shalett: And I'm Lisa Shalett, Chief Investment Officer for Morgan Stanley Wealth Management. Andrew Sheets: Today, the first of two episodes tackling a fascinating and complex question. Is American market dominance ending? And what would that mean for investors?It's Wednesday, July 30th at 4pm in London. Lisa Shalett: And it's 11am here in New York. Andrew Sheets: Lisa, it's so great to talk to you again, and especially what we're going to talk about over these two episodes. , a theme that's been coming up regularly on this podcast is this idea of American exceptionalism. This multi-year, almost multi-decade outperformance of the U.S. economy, of the U.S. currency, of the U.S. stock market. And so, it's great to have you on the show, given that you've recently published on this topic in a special report, very topically titled American Exceptionalism: Navigating the Great Rebalancing.So, what are the key pillars behind this idea and why do you think it's so important? Lisa Shalett: Yeah. So, I think that that when you think about the thesis of American exceptionalism and the duration of time that the thesis has endured. I think a lot of investors have come to the conclusion that many of the underpinnings of America's performance are just absolutely inherent and foundational, right? They'll point to America as a, economy of innovation. A market with regulation and capital markets breadth and depth and liquidity a market guided by, , laws and regulation, and a market where, heretofore, we've had relatively decent population growth. All things that tend to lead to growth. But our analysis of the past 15 years, while acknowledging all of those foundational pillars say, ‘Wait a minute, let's separate the wheat from the chaff.' Because this past 15 years has been, extraordinary and different. And it's been extraordinary and different on at least three dimensions. One, the degree to which we've had monetary accommodation and an extraordinary responsiveness of the Fed to any crisis. Secondly, extraordinary fiscal policy and fiscal stimulus. And third, the peak of globalization a trend that in our humble opinion, American companies were among the biggest beneficiaries of exploiting, despite all of the political rhetoric that considers the costs of that globalization. Andrew Sheets: So, Lisa, let me go back then to the title of your report, which is the Great Rebalancing or navigating the Great Rebalancing. So, what is that rebalancing? What do you think kind of might be in store going forward? Lisa Shalett: The profound out performance, as you noted, Andrew, of both the U.S. dollar and American stock markets have left the world, , at an extraordinarily overweight position to the dollar and to American assets.And that's against a backdrop where we're a fraction of the population. We're 25 percent of global GDP, and even with all of our great companies, we're still only 33 percent of the profit pool. So, we were at a place where not only was everyone overweight, but the relative valuation premia of American equity assets versus equities outside or rest of world was literally a 50 percent premium. And that really had us asking the question, is that really sustainable? Those kind of valuation premiums – at a point when all of these pillars, fiscal stimulus, monetary stimulus, globalization, are at these profound inflection points. Andrew Sheets: You mentioned monetary and fiscal policy a bit as being key to supercharging U.S. markets. Where do you think these factors are going to move in the future, and how do you think that affects this rebalancing idea? Lisa Shalett: Look, I mean, I think we went through a period of time where on a relative basis, relative growth, relative rate spreads, right? The, the dispersion between what you could earn in U.S. assets and what you could earn in other places, and the hedging ratio in those currency markets made owning U.S. assets, just incredibly attractive on a relative basis. As the U.S. now kind of hits this point of inflection when the rest of the world is starting to say, okay, in an America first and an America only policy world, what am I going to do? And I think the responses are that for many other countries, they are going to invest aggressively in defense, in infrastructure, in technology, to respond to de-globalization, if you will. And I think for many of those economies, it's going to help equalize not only growth rates between the U.S. and the rest of the world, but it's going to help equalize rate differentials. Particularly on the longer end of the curves, where everyone is going to spending money. Andrew Sheets: That's actually a great segue into this idea of globalization, which again was a major tailwind for U.S. corporations and a pillar of this American outperformance over a number of years.It does seem like that landscape has really changed over the last couple of decades, and yet going forward, it looks like it's going to change again. So, with rising deglobalization with higher tariffs, what do you think that's going to mean to U.S. corporate margins and global supply chains? Lisa Shalett: Maybe I am a product of my training and economics, but I have always been a believer in comparative advantage and what globalization allowed. True free trade and globalization of supply chains allowed was for countries to exploit what they were best at – whether it was the lowest cost labor, the lowest cost of natural resources, the lowest cost inputs. And America was aggressive at pursuing those things, at outsourcing what they could to grow profit margins. And that had lots of implications. And we weren't holding manufacturing assets or logistical assets or transportation assets necessarily on our balance sheets. And that dimension of this asset light and optimized supply chains is something in a world of tariffs, in a world of deglobalization, in a world of create manufacturing jobs onshore, where that gets reversed a bit. And there's going to be a financial cost to that. Andrew Sheets: It's probably fair to say that the way that a lot of people experience American exceptionalism is in their retirement account. In your view, is this outperformance sustainable or do you think, as you mentioned, changing fiscal dynamics, changing trade dynamics, that we're also going to see a leadership rotation here? Lisa Shalett: Our thesis has been, this isn't the end of American exceptionalism, point blank, black and white. What we've said, however, is that we think that the order of magnitude of that outperformance is what's going to close, , when you start burdening, , your growth rate with headwinds, right? And so, again, not to say that that American assets can't continue to, to be major contributors in portfolios and may even, , outperform by a bit. But I don't think that they're going to be outperforming by the magnitude, kind of the 450 - 550 basis points per year compound for 15 years that we've seen. Andrew Sheets: The American exceptionalism that we've seen really since 2009, it's also been accompanied by really unprecedented market imbalances. But another dimension of these imbalances is social and economic inequality, which is creating structural, and policy, and political challenges. Do these imbalances matter for markets? And do you think these imbalances affect economic stability and overall market performance? Lisa Shalett: People need to understand what has happened over this period. When we applied this degree of monetary and fiscal, stimulus, what we essentially did was massively deleverage the private sector of America, right? And as a result, when you do that, you enable and create the backdrop for the portions of your economy who are less interest rate sensitive to continue to, kind of, invest free money. And so what we have seen is that this gap between the haves and the have nots, those who are most interest rate sensitive and those who are least interest rate sensitive – that chasm is really blown out.But also I would suggest an economic policy conundrum. We can all have points of view about the central bank, and we can all have points of view about the current chair. But the reality is if you look at these dispersions in the United States, you have to ask yourself the question, is there one central bank policy that's right for the U.S. economy? I could make the argument that the U.S. GDP, right, is growing at 5.5 percent nominal right now. And the policy rate's 4.3 percent. Is that tight?Andrew Sheets: Hmm. Lisa Shalett: I don't know, right? The economists will tell me it's really tight, Lisa – [be]cause neutral is 3. But I don't know. I don't see the constraints. If I drill down and do I say, can I see constraints among small businesses? Yeah. I think they're suffering. Do I see constraints in some of the portfolio companies of private equity? Are they suffering? Yeah. Do they need lower rates? Yeah. Do the lower two-thirds of American consumers need lower rates to access the housing market. Yeah. But is it hurting the aggregate U.S. economy? Mm, I don't know; hard to convince me. Andrew Sheets: Well, Lisa, that seems like a great place to actually end it for now and Thanks as always, for taking the time to talk. Lisa Shalett: My pleasure, Andrew. Andrew Sheets: And that brings us to the end of part one of this two-part look at American exceptionalism and the impact on equity and fixed income markets. Tomorrow we'll dig into the fixed income side of that debate.Thank you as always, for your time. If you find Thoughts on the Market useful, let us know by leaving a review wherever you listen, and also tell a friend or colleague about us today.*****Lisa Shalett is a member of Morgan Stanley's Wealth Management Division and is not a member of Morgan Stanley's Research Department. Unless otherwise indicated, her views are her own and may differ from the views of the Morgan Stanley Research Department and from the views of others within Morgan Stanley.

Tiff and Dana discuss how dental practices are being innovative in 2025, including A.I., apps, and other technologies that will streamline the busy work and help teams focus on being human. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:02) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. Dana and I are back here today. We are really excited. We just did actually a really fun podcast. think that was probably, I think Dana, I don't know. I think that was one of my favorite podcasts we probably ever recorded. I love that stuff. So Dana, thanks for being here. How are you today?   Dana (00:22) doing good excited to get you know I always I know I say this a lot but I truly am just excited to have some time.   The Dental A Team (00:29) Thank you. Thank you. I know I   actually I still have it on my mind. I need to put it in my click up click up organizer. You guys shout out to that. I need to get the soft skills training on there. So I was thinking about that a lot. So you make you make my day Dana. Thank you. I appreciate that. ⁓ You guys virtual teams are weird and they were like   It's just weird. But I think the weirdest part to me or the oddest part is how sincerely close I feel to everyone. Like Dana, I feel like we're best friends and we never get time together. Like the last time we had time together, truly the last time we had time together, I guess, was when we did the December, we did the shopping for the kids in December, the give back. Prior to that was like,   Disneyland last, that was two years ago, right? Two years ago, I think he's time flies, time freaking flies. So, but I feel like we were just together last weekend. Like it's weird. It's a weird thing that has come really far. So on that note, anyone who's considering a virtual team member, it can work really well. I mean, we've got Josh who's in the Philippines and I feel like I know that man. Like we've hung out together.   Dana (01:45) Thank   The Dental A Team (01:47) That's so weird. He's in the Philippines you guys it's nighttime when he's working for us And I'm like groggy just starting my day And he's already lived an entire day and his family sleeping like wild and I feel like I know   Dana (02:01) We know things about his baby girl. We know things about his wife, his band. And it's like he's not even in the country on the same time zone. It's just virtually over the computer. It's crazy. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (02:12) Yeah,   it is really crazy. It's insane to me how far things have come. I think it's really cool. think 2020, we're going to call it 2020, not the other word we could call it, did a lot for us in a lot of ways. There is a lot of bad, I will never just credit that, but I think it forced innovation. 2020 forced human innovation.   I think it was things that were already like in the works in the background or whatever, but it just pushed it to the forefront. And the innovation that has come in the last five years has been insane to me and the amount and what we've been able to handle and what we've been able to consume as humans is wild to me and working remotely and working on a virtual team is definitely something that came out of that. I remember, I remember Karen and I when everything first started happening.   We were like, shoot, okay, it is time to innovate or die, quite literally, innovate or die as a company, because things are drastically changing. Dana, we were in offices constantly, constantly. And then all of a sudden we were like, guess what? You're not allowed to leave the state. Actually, you can't even leave your house. Like don't breathe on anyone. Don't look at anyone. Like it was wild. And that was when,   Dana (03:22) Yes.   The Dental A Team (03:30) Kiera and I got on a call and we were like, what the heck? How do we continue to help offices? And that was when we switched and started doing so much virtual. And it really spun, like it worked really well. We had so many offices that during shutdown, we're doing a ton of training with us. We were building operations manuals and really prepping for reopening. But it also brought a space of like, holy cow, Tiff and Kiera cannot do this alone. Like it brought on so much.   And I think it just like speaks to the spiral of innovation that we've had in the last five years in our company and just in the country as a whole in the world realistically. But Dana, I'm so excited. You came not too far after our 2020 whirlwind of guess what? We're going to do everything by video now. And I was like, ⁓ crikey, here we go. This is going to be fun.   And you came on board with us. So thank you for being here. You have changed the game for us. And I know changed the game for so many of your clients. ⁓ And Dana continues to help us innovate constantly. It is something that she is really, really good at. is brilliant and just constantly thinking of another way, like, and then the, the, and then theory, like, yes, you can do that, but then also you could do this. I'm like, dang it. Thank you. So Dana, thank you for being here. ⁓   I don't know if you guys know this or not, a lot of our topics, we choose our topics, a lot of them, or we decide like, what are we gonna talk about today or what practice do we wanna highlight or chat about? then there are topics that are given to us that I can't really say that I don't have a lot of control on that because they're given to me at the beginning of the year, well, the end of the year for the beginning of the year.   And I go through them and I'm like, yes, these are fantastic topics. These are going to be great newsletters. Doctors are going to find a ton of value in this. And then as discussed about 15 minutes ago with Dana, I need to layer on top of that. This is the and then and say, how are we going to make a podcast about this? Because we have, we have run into that today. ⁓ but I'm really actually excited. We did our research, we did our due diligence and we've chatted about this a few times and   Speaking of innovations, there's been so many innovations everywhere that have helped dentistry just really take a new foothold in the scene of medical. And I think that you guys can all agree with that. Dentistry is one of the top survivors of 2020. And we're really thriving in this world. It's just never, never going away. So tons of innovations. We've talked about the tech. We talk about the tech a lot. actually did one, um, Dana, I did a podcast.   not too long ago with Christy about really getting dental assistants involved in the tech and the innovations there. And that was fun. And this one kind of, guess, is dental assistants too, but we really wanted to highlight some infection control innovations and not just like look at, oh, this is so cool. And, know, I don't know, when I started in 2003, we were doing this and now we're doing this. Like, I don't want to just dive into those, but I really want to talk about some things that are up and coming on the scene.   But with that said Dana thinking of my past and aging aging us both here. You're welcome Do you remember? Do you remember go walking into the room? No masks sometimes I had gloves like it was like whatever and dirty tray in one spot and just like spraying everything Everywhere to where you could barely breathe in that room. I remember I remember gosh   This must have been like 2006, 2007. I don't remember what happened, but something changed, right? With infection control. Do you remember stocking up on the Lysol cans? And like your whole office was like a cloud of Lysol. You couldn't even breathe. And now I'm, you know, curious to see what my lungs are gonna look like in the future and what Lysol really does to your lungs. But like, it's just so fun to look at.   Dana (07:30) Yep.   The Dental A Team (07:42) These are the things we used to do. I used to walk into an operatory with what was it called? What is it? It starts with a B. It's a Birex. I can see the bottle, the clear bottle with the green writing, yellow, you know, squirt, and just like squirting every surface I could possibly see. And then aerosoling with Lysol, walking away, coming back.   Dana (07:43) Hmm.   Pyrex, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   This is... Yep. Everything. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (08:11) wiping it down with calvicide wipes, spraying it again, and then walking away and then walking in with a patient and being like, oh, let me dry that. And I'm drying the chair because there's still byracks on the chair or Lysol in the air and the patient's coughing. Dana, do you remember those days? I hope some of us do.   Dana (08:15) Yeah.   I do and   honestly too because I grew up like I was a child in a dental office a lot and I actually even remember when like gloves were optional.   The Dental A Team (08:35) That's right.   Yeah, I was like, I know what you're   gonna say. I know what you're gonna say. Yeah.   Dana (08:45) Yep, yeah, we're even gloves.   We're just kind of like an option for something.   The Dental A Team (08:50) Yeah. Do you remember   when they would say, well, this is more to protect me than it is to protect you. So that's why I don't wear them. I remember that too. I'm like,   Dana (08:56) Yeah. ⁓   I wash my hands. we're gonna like, I just think about it now all the time. I'm like, ⁓ my like, the places we have come.   The Dental A Team (09:05) ⁓ what we did.   places we   have come, the things we have done not knowing. hope there are so many of you out there laughing. I know that there are a lot of you out there that are like, what are they even talking about? Because you may not have even been born yet. So welcome to Jenna String. We're glad you're here. Just be happier. Be happier coming out of the scene now. ⁓ Anyways, some of the things that I have   Well, we looked up some things today, Dana, and some of the things that one thing I was really excited about something that you mentioned when we were chatting earlier. I want you to kind of talk about what you think, how you think ⁓ practices could really utilize this was one there's like up and coming on the scene. I don't think that there's anything really out there yet that's solid, but up and coming on the scene like automated ⁓ knowing automatically if a sterilizer needs to be ran or what.   write the sterilization pieces. So that's, that's looking really cool, the AI side of automating those types of things to keep a good schedule. But Dana, one thing that was on there that we were looking at was really like tracking those things and making it so that it is digitized. And I think that's massive, because these checklists that we create with practices, right, I have so many dentists that are like, well, cool, we've got like an end to day sheet, but like, what about their monthly? What about their weekly? What about the stereo?   strips. And as a dental assistant, I never remember to do those dang things. And when I did, I never looked at them, right? And I'm like, just having shine, take it, take it away. Tell me if it's good or not. Like, but these automated tools, I think will be super helpful. So Dana, what do you think? How do you think that innovation is really going to benefit practices? And how can they implement something like that right away, that they could truly automate some of these things?   Dana (10:53) Yeah, and I think it's really just doing some research and finding things that are definitely our companies out there who that have started and even in the AI platform where they're just automatically tracking your sterilization. They're automatically making sure that all of your sterilization batches that come out are.   are good and it's logging it for you with dates and paths and fail and, and all those pieces, which I think is just really, really super cool. I know that oftentimes when I get new offices, you know, they're like, well, how do I get my OSHA pieces in place? And how do I and having things like this that are just automated that like, what, what a cool tool and what cool things that I think we're seeing coming for dentistry in that area.   The Dental A Team (11:34) Yeah. Where do you feel like practices could ⁓ ramp up what they're doing now to automate it? Like, I feel like I'm thinking we use ClickUp for everything, which I mean, we have spent, I'm not going to lie. We spent a couple of years getting really good at ClickUp and we have a whole team working on it behind us, but something like that even, right? Where it's like sending these automated email reminders or there's apps out there.   Dana (11:45) Mm-hmm.   No.   The Dental A Team (12:01) with the Remind apps. I know the schools use a Remind app even, but there's like those ⁓ family calendar apps that text you when things are coming up. Like how can we be innovative without waiting for AI to get better or waiting for, you know, Elon Musk or someone to think of something incredibly crazy that no one's ever thought of, but how can we be innovative with the tools that we already have?   that maybe we're seeing people are just aren't really doing these things and they easily could.   Dana (12:31) Yeah,   and think some of it comes down to like that saying, know, know thyself and be free, right? Well, if you're somebody that needs automated reminders, find a way to do it. There's boomerang on your email that you can, you can simply just email yourself and say, sterilization test strip, right? And then you boomerang it to yourself every 10 days or every number of days that it's required for you in your area. And so I think just like finding ways things that are hard don't   typically have to be hard. You just have to find a way to make it easier. And there are so many.   things out there, software, resources, and oftentimes too, like they're even cost effective or there's no cost, right, for some of these too. And so I think it is finding the pieces that are hard for you to keep track of, and then find something, whether it is a management tool or whether it is just a reminder system or whether it is one of these AI ⁓ pieces that are coming or are here. I think it really just is looking and figuring out how you can pivot.   and how you can use the technology that is around you because man, just, the things that are at our fingertips to make things easy and to help with the things that we kind of like just hit our heads on the wall against every single day, they're here and even more is coming and it's really cool.   The Dental A Team (13:54) I couldn't agree more. I have so many systems set up. I tell my practices constantly. Like I my memory, I my memory has never been super fantastic. I remember the things I want to remember, I suppose. Right. But I have so many like I have it down to like, in my calendar, it'll say like, don't forget to leave for your hair appointment. Last Friday, like you've got to drive, right? You got so many pop ups and reminders, then I'll set. I'll just set simple alarms with a label on my phone sometimes that   we'll make sure that I remember to do that off the wall thing. I think you're right, Dana, that we, I think we tend to overcomplicate things. And we try, we try to tell ourselves that we don't, we're not smart enough, or we don't know the thing, or that's not my space, right? I'm not a tech person. I'm not a techie person, but I can tell you, there are plenty of techie people out there that have created systems that I can use.   as a template to create it to be and work however I need it to work for me so that no, they saw me true. You're 100 % spot on with that. I know that I need these reminders. And so I look for the tools that will help me do that. I think making sure doctors, practice owners, leaders, making sure you guys remember you don't have to be the ones that think of this for everyone else. had...   a call yesterday, Dana, with a group of managers that are near and dear to my heart. I've been working with these ladies for years, gosh, like, I think since 2018. And I love them. They're so fantastic. But one of the questions yesterday was like, what do I do when they just keep forgetting to do the thing I asked them to do? And I'm like, well, one, right, Dana, make sure that you've got a date set. And like you said, like a reporting back system, you said that earlier on a different podcast. But also, Dana, don't   You believe I know you teach this to like, I don't need to be the one that creates the system for you to make sure you get it done. If I take that autonomy and that creativity from you, you're likely going to forget, right? Yeah.   Dana (15:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with   you. And I think team members know themselves.   Hands down better than you do as leaders or or we do as your coach and so sometimes I'm like just sit down and ask them like what can we put into place? What do you think will help you? What do you think we can do to support or what system do you think that we can build in? That's because not everybody is a checklist person Sometimes people need reminders on their phones. Sometimes people need reminders on the schedule. Sometimes people need Something that comes to them via email whatever it is, but oftentimes team members because they know themselves better than   anyone can come up with something that will actually truly work versus the 30 things we throw at them trying to solve it.   The Dental A Team (16:37) I totally agree with you. Totally agree with you. And that's, that's been helpful in my life for me to be able to have that autonomy and, be empowered to create what's going to work for me. And one of the biggest spaces there is, and then this comes to like the infection control things too, like what's the result we're after. If we know the result we're after, we are, we are very smart beings. We are insanely intellectual. If we know the result we're after,   likely we can come up with a plan to get us there. We just, we have to be given that space and the availability to be able to do that. So I think it's huge. think, gosh, Dana, like this little, I mean, we both have these notes up here that we're like, gosh, there are some really cool things coming down the pipeline. Like they sound awesome. Automated waterline disinfection system. Like, holy cow, that's so cool. If you have this, please write it and tell us more about it. Like,   I know there's so many things that have come out of the last five years and just watching these startup companies or companies that are just starting to do this new thing, watching them do this and jump onto the scene has just been really, really cool. I think do some research, you guys. There's some cool things in here that we don't know enough about to.   go on tangents with, but it is really amazing. And staying on top of that, staying in the forums, I know we've got our doctor forum that's constantly asking questions around things like this and constantly innovating and thinking of new things, but realistically, bottom line, make sure that it's getting done. Make sure that you know what the standards are that you're supposed to keep when it comes to infection control. Those standards, those are your goals. Give them to your team. Your team's really smart. And guess what? Most of us.   Right? Have teams that are way younger than us today. Shelby, shout out to Shelby. Shelby taught these old dogs a trick. That's not a new trick. It's a trick that we forgot about because we didn't have a reminder system for it. But Shelby, Shelby innovates like crazy. She is a solution master. She is a problem solver. And I think it's just that generation's way of   being they were raised with the internet, they were raised with these tools at their disposal and they know how to use them. We were not raised with these tools at our disposal. They came onto the scene while we were growing up and we learned to use them as they they were learning us, you know, and trust these team members to figure some of this stuff out and automate things for you. Simplify, create the systems that are going to work like let them work with these these things. I've seen   not only Shelby, but I've seen so many practices thrive because these young minds are thinking of some incredible, incredible things. And Dana, I'm sure you're saying the same things in your practices.   Dana (19:37) yeah, yeah, and you know, team members sometimes come with great ideas, they come with great resources, sometimes team members, you know, go do research and find something that will solve an issue that's happening and it is really...   need to see from an outside perspective, just how many changes are here, how many changes are coming and the pieces that technology bring. And you're right, younger team members tend to embrace them, ⁓ and find them.   The Dental A Team (20:07) Yeah, I agree. I agree. I call them, you know, the smarter, they're smarter. Those kids running around just thinking of everything and like, dang it, you know, I need that. But we all have our own things that we do really well and I make reminders really well. So that's what I'm gonna be super proud of today. So you guys, I told you, we have some really fun ones. Today was actually really fun. Innovations in infection control, like,   you guys innovate or die yourselves. Where is it? Maybe an infection control, maybe in anywhere else that's honestly driving you a little bit bad. Maybe we're forgetting the stereo strips. Maybe we're forgetting to the lines. Maybe we're forgetting to change the traps and our compressors are getting overworked. Like all of those spaces. What is it? Maybe we're forgetting to wipe things down or whatever it is. Where can we build in some automation? Because today's innovation is reminding you   that there's an automation for everything. So what is it that's driving your nets? What is it that's not getting done so your result isn't getting met? And then what can we create? What system can we create and put in a place that's going to get us there? Dana, thank you so much for taking this wild journey with me today. We've had some really fun podcasts. has been really enjoyable. I would not want to have done this with anyone else. So thank you, Dana, for spending your afternoon with me.   Dana (21:31) Yep, always fun.   The Dental A Team (21:33) Always an adventure with Tiff. All right, guys. Thank you listeners for being here. Whether you are a current Dental A Team client, a future client, or someone who is just here to listen, we love all of you guys. You are near and dear to our heart. We hope that you enjoy every podcast, but we hope you took some nuggets away from today. Please, as always, leave us a five-star review. Let us know what you thought.   And if you have some innovations, write into us. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. If there are things that other people need to know about, put it in your review as well. People really do read them. And also look for our doctor forums on Facebook or on Instagram. And then if you are a client, make sure that you're in our client only space as well so that you can help everyone innovate in their practices too. And that's a wrap. Thanks guys. We'll catch you next time.

Title: How to Make Millions with Vending Machines with Mike Hoffman Summary: In this conversation, Seth Bradley and Mike Hoffman delve into the world of vending machines as a business opportunity. Mike shares his journey from a Midwest farm boy to a successful entrepreneur in the vending industry, highlighting the evolution of vending technology and the potential for passive income. They discuss the importance of location, understanding demographics, and the scalability of vending routes. Mike emphasizes the need for upfront work and learning before delegating tasks, while also addressing the misconceptions surrounding passive income in the vending business. In this conversation, Seth Bradley and Mike discuss various aspects of entrepreneurship, particularly in the vending machine business. They explore the importance of capital raising, the journey of self-discovery, influences that shape business decisions, and the definition of success. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of flexibility, discipline, and focus in achieving entrepreneurial goals, while also touching on financial milestones and the attributes that distinguish successful entrepreneurs. Links to Watch and Subscribe:   Bullet Point Highlights: Mike's journey from a classic Midwest farm boy to a successful entrepreneur. The evolution of vending machines from traditional to smart technology. Understanding the importance of location in the vending business. The analogy of baseball levels to describe starting in vending. Scaling up from single A to big leagues in vending routes. The significance of demographics in product selection for vending machines. The potential for passive income with proper systems in place. The need for upfront work before achieving passivity in business. Vending is not a get-rich-quick scheme; it requires dedication. The future opportunities in the vending industry are expanding rapidly. Raising capital can dilute ownership but may be necessary for rapid growth. Self-discovery often leads to unexpected career paths. Influences in business can come from personal experiences rather than just mentors. Success is often defined by the ability to prioritize family and flexibility. Entrepreneurs work harder than in traditional jobs but gain flexibility. Discipline is crucial for saying no to distractions. Successful entrepreneurs often focus on niche markets. High foot traffic locations are ideal for vending machines. AI is transforming business operations and efficiency. Networking and connections can lead to valuable opportunities. Transcript: Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:04.898) Mike, what's going on buddy? Doing great brother, doing great. How about you?   Mike (00:06.748) Don't worry,   Mike (00:11.664) Good, I'm a little flustered. I usually have my mic set up over here, but I guess we just moved and it's not here today. I guess, yeah, new office and it's been a whole hot mess.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:19.822) New office or what?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:27.862) Nice man, nice. I see you got the whiteboard cranking back there. Love to see that.   Mike (00:33.114) Always. I love your background. That's sweet.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:38.03) Thanks man, yeah, I'm on camera all the time so I like I need to just build this out instead of using like a green screen so Made the investment made it happen   Mike (00:44.86) Totally.   Yeah, absolutely.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:49.442) Have we met in person or not? I don't know if we've met at a Wealth Without Wall Street event or I couldn't tell. Okay. No, I did not go to Nashville last year.   Mike (00:58.478) I don't think so. don't think you're... Were you in Nashville last year?   Mike (01:04.634) No, okay. No, I don't think we've met in person. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:08.256) Okay, all good, man. All good. Well, cool. I'll just go over the format real quick. We'll do kind of a shorter recording. We're do like 30 minutes, something like in that range. And then we'll just kind of like break. And then I'll, want to record a couple of other quick segments where I call it Million Dollar Monday. I'm kind of asking you about how you made your first, last and next million. And then 1 % closer, which would just be kind of what separates you, what makes you the   top 1 % in your particular vertical. So we'll just kind of record those separately. Those will be real short, like five minutes or so.   Mike (01:44.924) Okay, yeah, I'll follow your lead. All good.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:47.15) Cool. Cool. Let's see. I think I already have this auto recording. So we're already recording. So I'll just jump right in.   Mike (01:55.377) Okay.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:57.782) Welcome to Raise the Bar Radio, hosted by yours truly Seth Bradley. We today we've got Mr. Passive, Mike Hoffman. Mike, welcome to the show.   Mike (02:08.189) Thank you for having me fired up to be here.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:10.855) Absolutely man, really happy to have you on. I know it's been a little bit of a trek here to get our schedules lined up, but really stoked to have you on today, man. I see you said you moved into a new office. You've got the whiteboard cranking, so love to see it.   Mike (02:25.372) yeah, whiteboards are the only place I can get my thoughts down.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:29.399) Yeah, man, it makes a difference when you actually write something rather than type it or even on a mirror board where you're doing it online. just there's something about physically writing something down.   Mike (02:41.328) You know, I'm glad you said that because yesterday I flipped to Seattle for a quick work trip and I didn't have wifi and I literally had three pages of just, I, was so like the clarity of some of these kinds of bigger visions I have now from just being able to write for an hour on a flight was, I was like, man, I gotta do this more often.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:00.363) Yeah, for sure. The key though is once you write it down, it just doesn't go into the trash or into a black hole somewhere where you never see it again. So that's kind of the disadvantage there. If you have it on your computer and you're taking notes or you have it on a mirror board, at least it's there to reference all the time. If you write it down on paper, sometimes, I've got my Raze Masters book right here for notes, but it's like, it might go into the abyss and I'll never look at it again. So you gotta be careful about that.   Mike (03:27.184) Yeah, yeah, I need to check out the Miro boards. I've heard a lot of good things about them.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:31.467) Yeah, yeah. Awesome, Mike. Well, listen, for our audience who doesn't know anything about you, maybe just tell them, you know, tell them a little bit about your background. Tell them about your your main business and we can take it from there.   Mike (03:43.354) Yeah. So I think for those that don't know about me, I'm a classic Midwest farm boy started with a classic, you know, showing cattle at the county fair and all of that and had a lemonade stand growing up. And then my first job was actually at McDonald's, you know, thinking about the whole success of that business model. But when I was coaching and, out of college, I got my first rental and I was like, wow, this is crazy. making money without.   really much time involved. and then with my work in Silicon Valley, know, Seth, was classic Silicon Valley, you know, cutthroat job that, startup life and traveling three weeks out of the month. And I was on, I was in airports all the time. And was like, these vending machines I would run into at airports were just so archaic. And so I went down this path of like unattended retail and kind of the future of, of that. And that's really where I just see a huge opportunity right now.   And so it's kind of what led me into all these different income streams that I'm passionate about.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:49.431) That's awesome, man. Well, let's dive into that a little bit deeper. me about these income streams. It centers around vending machines, right? But I'm sure there's a lot more to it. I'm sure there's a lot of different entry points for people. Maybe just kind of give us a general synopsis to start out.   Mike (05:06.78) Yeah, so I think the big thing with, you know, if we're talking vending specifically as an income stream, you know, most people think of vending as the traditional machines where you enter in a code, you put your card on the machine and then a motor spirals down a Snickers bar or a soda and you go into the chute and grab it.   Nowadays, there's these smart machines that literally you just unlock the door, or even if you go into, land in the Vegas airport right at the bottom of the escalator where it says, welcome to Las Vegas, there's a 7-Eleven with gates and AI cameras, and there's no employees in the 7-Eleven. And it just tracks whatever you grab and to exit the gate, you have to pay for it. So like, there's just this huge market now where we just installed it in urgent care.   less than two months ago and we can do over the counter meds in that machine because it doesn't have to fit into a motor. It's just shelf space. You identify with the planogram with the AI cameras like, okay, Dayquil in this slot or Salad in this slot and then whatever they grab, gets charged to the person that pulls it from it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (06:15.469) That's interesting, man. Yeah, I mean, my initial thought too, was just like the traditional old vending machine where you're getting a candy bar or a cola out of there. But yeah, nowadays, now that you mentioned that, you see this more and more every single day where you've got these scanners, you've got kind of self-checkout, that sort of thing. So that's kind of, that expands that world and really opens it up to the future, right? Like it just really, that's what we're trying to get to, or at least we think we wanna get there, where we're kind of removing humans and...   kind of working with technologies and things like that.   Mike (06:49.488) Yeah, and I think, you know, removing the whole human thing. mean, those machines still got to get stocked and you know, there's not robots running around doing that. But I just come back to, I was a Marriott guy when I was on the road all the time and I'd go to these grab and goes at a Marriott and grab a, the end of the night, I'd grab like a little wine or an ice cream sandwich. And I literally had to go wait in line at the check-in desk behind three people checking in just to tell them, Hey, put these on.   room charge and I was like if I had a checkout kiosk in that grab-and-go I could have just removed all the friction for this customer experience.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:27.772) Right, 100%. Yeah, I mean, there's a place and time for it and there's more and more applications for it that just pop up every single day and you can kind of spot that in your life as you're just kind of moving through, whether you're checking into your hotel or whatever you're doing.   Mike (07:41.456) Yeah, yeah. So that's just kind of what excites me today.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:45.973) Yeah, yeah, so when a stranger asks you what you do just in the street, what do you tell them? Because I have a hard time answering that question sometimes too, but I'd love to hear what your answer is.   Mike (07:56.804) Yeah, I would just say it depends on the day. You know, what do you do or what's your, you know, it's like at the golf course when you get paired up with a stranger and they're like, tell me about what you do for your career. And I just say, I'm a classic entrepreneur. And then I'm like, well, what do you do? And it's like, well, tell me about the day. You know, what fire are you putting out? Like today we just got the go ahead for five more urgent cares for our local route. But then, you know, we have a community of operators across the country that we help really build.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:57.933) haha   Ha ha ha.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (08:09.879) Yeah. Yeah.   Mike (08:25.616) Vending empires and so we had a group call this morning. So literally, there's a lot of just, you know, it's classic entrepreneurial life. You never know what the day's script is gonna be.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (08:36.161) Yeah, for sure. And you focus a lot on not only on your own business, but also teaching others, right? Teaching others how to kind of break into this business.   Mike (08:45.402) Yeah, that's my passion, Seth. When I got into my first investment out of college was a $70,000 rental, you know, putting 20 % down or 14K and using an emergency fund. like my background in going to college was as a coach. like I knew I wanted to kind of take that mindset of like coaching people, you know, teach them how to fish. I don't want to catch all the fish myself. It's just not fulfilling that way. So that's really where my passion is.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (09:15.373) Gotcha, gotcha. tell me about like, tell me about step one. I mean, how does somebody break into this business? Obviously your own personal business is probably very advanced. There's probably a lot more sophisticated investing strategies at this point and you've got different layers to it. But somebody just kind of starting out that said, hey, this sounds pretty interesting. This vending machine business sounds like it can be passive. How do you recommend that they get started?   Mike (09:40.57) Yeah, so I'm always, I view like the whole vending scale as similar to Major League Baseball. You got your single A all the way up to the big leagues. And if you're just starting out, I always recommend like find a location where you can put a machine and just learn the process. Like to me, that's single A analogy. you know, that always starts with, people want to jump right to like, well, what type of machines do you recommend?   products, how do you price products? And the first question I'll always ask Seth is, well, what location is this machine going in? And they're like, well, I don't know yet. I was just going to buy one and put it in my garage to start. And it's like, no, you need to have the location first. So understanding that, is it a pet hospital? Is it an apartment? Is it a gym? Where is the foot traffic? And then you can cater to what's the best machine for that type of location.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (10:36.887) Got it, got it. Now is this a kind of a rent, you rent the space to place the machine with that particular business or wherever you're gonna place it or how does that all come together?   Mike (10:47.644) not typically, some people are kind of more advanced, like apartment complexes are used to the revenue share model. So they're going to ask for a piece of the pie for sure, for you to put the machine in their lobby. but like, you know, when we're talking urgent carers or even pet hospitals are viewing it as an amenity. And so we probably have, I don't even know how many machines now 75 now, and we, you know, less than half of those actually,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (10:50.423) Okay.   Mike (11:15.1) us rent or ask for a revenue share to have them in there. So I never leave lead with that, but we'll do it if we need to get the location.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (11:23.989) Interesting gotcha. So it's really a value add for wherever you're gonna place it and that's how most people or I guess most businesses would look at that and then you're able to capture that that space   Mike (11:27.366) Mm-hmm.   Mike (11:34.236) Yeah, absolutely. So, um, a great case study is we have a 25 employee roughing business here in Oregon. And you might think like, only 25 employees. It's not going to make that much money. Well, we do $1,200 a month. And the cool thing about this, Seth, is the CEO of this roughing company literally did napkin math on how much it costs for his employees to drive to the gas station during their 20 minute break. And then   How much they're paying for an energy drink at the gas station and then how much gas they're using with the roofing like the work trucks to get to and from the gas station So he's like I want to bring a smart machine into our warehouse Set the prices as half off so that four dollar monster only costs his rofers two dollars and then we invoice him the the business owner every month for the other 50 % and so he actually   Calculated as a cost savings not asking for money to rent the space   Seth Bradley, Esq. (12:35.597) Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. That makes sense. That makes sense. I love the baseball analogy with the single A, double A, triple A, even into the big leagues here. know, a lot of the folks that listen to this are already kind of, you know, in the big leagues or maybe think about some capital behind them. Like how would they be able to jump right in, maybe skip single or double A or would they, or do you even suggest that? Do you suggest that they start, you know, small just to learn and then maybe invest some more capital into it to expand or can they jump right to the big leagues?   Mike (12:48.891) Yeah.   Yeah.   Mike (13:03.966) I think they can jump right to the big leagues. this is, I'm glad you brought this up because just listening to some of your episodes from the past, there's no doubt that you have people that could buy a route like a off biz buy sell today. And I think this is a prime opportunity. it's very similar to flipping a house. you, you know, there's a route in Chicago, I think it was for $1.1 million, you know, whatever negotiating terms or seller financing or, or what have you, got a lot of, your, your   audience that is experts in that. But the cool thing about these routes is they have the old school machines that have the motors and that are limited to, this type of machine, you can only fit a 12 ounce cannon. Well, guess what? The minute you buy that route, you swap out that machine with one of these micro markets or smart machines. Now you just went from selling a 12 ounce soda for $1.25 to now a 16 ounce monster for $4.50.   Well, you just bought that location based on its current revenue numbers and by swapping out that machine, you're going to two or three acts your revenue just at that location. And so it's truly just like a value play, a value upgrade, like flipping the house of, okay, there's a lot of deals right now of these routes being sold by baby boomers where it's like, they got the old school Pepsi machine. Doesn't have a credit card reader on it. They can't track inventory remotely via their cell phones. So   They're not keeping it stocked. Like all those types of things can really play in your favor as a buyer that just wants to get to the big leagues right away.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (14:37.651) I love that. When you say buy a route, what are you really buying? Tell me about the contractual agreement behind that. What are you really buying there?   Mike (14:47.184) You're just buying the locations and the equipment associated with it. So like this Chicago route, it's like, we have machines in 75 properties all across the Chicago suburbs. And they could be medical clinics. could be apartments. could be employee break rooms at businesses, but that's when you start diving into those locations. It's like, I have a snack machine and a soda machine here. Well, you swap that out with a micro market that now instead of.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (14:49.279) Okay. Okay.   Mike (15:13.626) that machine that'll only hold a small bag of Doritos that you charge two bucks, well now you get the movie size theater bags that you can really put in there in a micro market. Like naturally just that valuation of that route based on those 75 machines current revenue, I mean you're gonna be able to two or three X your revenue right by just swapping out those machines.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (15:35.959) Wow, yeah, I love that analogy with real estate, right? It's just like a value add. It's like, how can I bring in more income from what already exists? Well, I need to upgrade or I need to put in some capital improvements, whatever you want to call it. Here's the vending machine upgrades or a different kind of system in there. And you get more income. And obviously that business in itself is going to be worth more in a higher multiple.   Mike (15:58.396) Absolutely. mean, a great example of this is we had a machine in an apartment complex and it was your traditional machine with the motors and you have to enter in the code. Well, we could only put in four 12 ounce drinks and then chips. Well, we swapped that out with a micro market. Well, now that micro market, we literally put in bags of Tide Pods for laundry, like these big bags of Tide Pods. We'll sell those like hotcakes for 15 bucks. And our old machine,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:25.281) Yeah, let's say those aren't cheap.   Mike (16:27.246) Yeah, our old machine Seth, it would take us to get to 15 bucks, we'd have to sell eight Snickers. That's one transaction.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:33.547) Right, right. Yeah, yeah. How do you do an analysis kind of based on like what you think is gonna sell there, right? Like you're replacing, let's say a Dorito machine with Tide Pods, you know? So you have to individually go to each location and figure out what will work, what will sell.   Mike (16:47.738) Yeah.   Mike (16:51.834) It's all about demographic. Absolutely. So, you know, we have, we have, we have a micro market and a manufacturing plant that's, it's a pumpkin farm and there's a ton of Hispanic workers. So we do a lot of like spicy foods, a lot of spicy chips. do, we do a ton of, mean, the sugar or sorry, the glass bottle cokes. They do, they love their pastries.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:53.431) Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (17:06.349) Yeah.   Mike (17:15.868) So we just doubled down on the demographics. So yesterday I was filming at one of our micro markets that's in a gym and they crushed the Fairlife protein shakes, like the more modern protein shakes, but they won't touch muscle milk. So we're literally taking out one row of muscle milk just to add an extra row of Fairlife shakes. So you're constantly just catering to the demographics and what's selling.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (17:40.632) Yeah, yeah, this is awesome. I mean, this is literally just like real estate, right? Like you go and you find a good market. You're talking about demographics, right? Find the market, see what they want, see how much you can upgrade, how you can upgrade. If it's an apartment, it's a unit. If it's here, it's the product that you're selling and the type of machine, or maybe it's a mini market. A lot of things to kind of tie your understanding to here.   Mike (17:45.926) Yeah.   Mike (18:05.904) Yeah, absolutely.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (18:07.615) Yeah, awesome, man. Awesome, Where are you at in your business? Like what, you know, what are the big leagues looking like right now? You know, what are you doing to expand your business, raising the bar in your business?   Mike (18:18.692) Yeah, I'm going after that's a really good question. I'm going after kind of these newer markets and we're kind of past that point of like, okay, let's pilot in this location. For example, that urgent care, we didn't know if it was going to be a good location two months ago when we installed. Well now it's already crushing it. Well, there's six other urgent cares in town and we just got to go ahead on five of those six. So like for me, it's doubling down on our current proof points of where.   okay, we know that manufacturing plant, the pumpkin farm does really well. So let's start getting intros to all their, manufacturers of the products they need to grow pumpkin. know, like we're just doubling down on scaling because now we have the operational blueprint to really just kind of to go after it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:03.917) Gotcha, gotcha. Tell me about how passive this can really be, right? So I used to have, before we switched over to the new brand, Raise the Bar podcast, it was the Passive Income Attorney podcast, right? I was really focused on passive investments, focused on bringing in passive investors into my real estate deals, things like that. And I think that word passive gets thrown around quite a bit, right? And sometimes it's abused because people get into things that are not truly passive.   Mike (19:18.427) Yeah.   Mike (19:28.784) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:33.517) What's your take on that as it relates to the vending business?   Mike (19:38.49) Yeah, so I think as far as with the vending business, there's clearly upfront leg work that needs to be done, whether that's finding locations or any of those things. So I have a route that is here in Oregon, and then we bought a route last year in Illinois and have scaled that route. I spend 30 minutes a week on each route now. that these urgent cares and stuff, like we have an operator that's running the whole route.   Here's the problem, Seth. It's like people are so scared to build systems to ultimately systemize things or they're too cheap to hire help. And I'm the opposite. like, you know, kind of like Dan Martell's buy back your time. Like I have like a leverage calculator and like I constantly think about is this worth my time? Cause as you know, you're busier than me. Like it's so limited.   for me, my routes, I would consider them passive, like one hour a week is, is nothing in my mind. But as far as like, you know, I'm, I'm also a passive investor on, we're building a, an oil loop station in Florida and I sent my money a year ago to, to my, active investor and I haven't talked to him since. Like that's actually truly probably passive now, you know, I'm not doing anything, but there's, there's different levels to that. And I'm a huge believer like.   don't delegate something until you know what you're delegating. So people that want to start with the vending routes, sure, if you want to buy a route that already has an operator, that's one thing. but these, if you're starting a vending route for your kid or for your stay at home wife or whatever, as a side hustle, like get in the weeds and install that first machine. So when you hire help to take over the route, you know what you're delegating.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (21:09.773) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (21:27.021) Yeah, that's key. That's key. And you you described just like any other business, right? I think that's kind of where people get themselves into trouble. That sometimes they get sold the dream that is truly passive. And eventually it can be. I mean, you're talking about an hour a week. To me, that's pretty damn passive, right? But you know, upfront, you you've got to learn the business. You've got to know what you're getting yourself into. Like you said, you've got to learn before you delegate so that you know what you're delegating.   There is going to be some upfront work and then as you're able to kind of delegate and learn Then you can make it more and more passive as you go   Mike (22:00.88) Yeah, I mean, it's no different than what's the same when people tell you that they're busy. I mean, you're just not a priority. Like that's a fact. you're not. People say it's the same thing when people come to me and they're like, I'm so busy. It's like, okay, well let me, let me see your schedule. Where are you spending your time? You know, it's like when people are like, I can't lose weight. Okay, well let me see your food log. What did you eat yesterday? Did you have ice cream? Like this is like the same kind of thing. That's where passive I think has been really abused.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (22:16.097) Yeah. Yep.   Mike (22:29.638) To me, the bigger issue is like, vending is not get rich quick. And so like, if you're expecting to leave your nine to five tomorrow and vending is going to make up for that in one day, like that's not going to   Seth Bradley, Esq. (22:41.089) Right, Makes sense. Speaking of passive, do you raise capital or do you have any kind of a fund or have you put together a fund for something like this?   Mike (22:51.48) We haven't put together a fun, we're definitely buying routes is definitely becoming more and more intriguing. And I know there's some PE players starting to get into the vending game, but it's something we've been definitely considering and on our radar of do we want to.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (22:58.541) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (23:10.231) Gotcha. Cool. I mean, you brought in money partners for some of those routes yet, or is that still something you're exploring too?   Mike (23:18.168) No, I think it's just something we're thinking about. mean, what do you recommend?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (23:21.089) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd recommend I mean, it depends, right? Like I'm I'm scared to turn you by trade, but I don't like to say you should always raise capital no matter what. Right. Like you've been able to scale your business as you have and grown it to where it is without bringing outside capital. It sounds which is great because you own 100 percent or with whatever business partners you might have. You know, when you start raising capital, you're giving a large chunk of that piece away, not necessarily your whole company. But if you're buying   you know, a set of routes or that sort of thing. You you're gonna give a big piece away to those past investors if you're starting a fund or even if it's up. Even a single asset syndication here for one of these, you know, these routes, you could put it together that way. You know, it's just something to consider. But a lot of times when people are looking to scale fast, right, if they wanna grow exponentially, you've gotta use other people's money to get there or hit the lottery.   Mike (24:08.294) Mm.   Mike (24:15.856) Absolutely, no, agree. That's spot-on and I actually before you know the Silicon Valley company That I was part of we had a we went through probably series a B C D C ground   Let's just say we weren't very fiscally responsible. So I come from the, you know, it's like the ex-girlfriend example. I don't want to just start taking everyone's money.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (24:42.413) Yeah, yeah, that tends to happen with some startups, right? Like before you get funding, you're super frugal because it's your money and every single dollar counts. And you're like, I don't want to pay, you if it's software, you don't want to pay the software engineers. I'm going to out, you know, put it, you know, hire Indian engineers, that sort of thing. And then once you get a few million bucks that you raised in that seed round, then it just goes and you're like, whoa, wait a minute, let's hire 20 people. You know, it's you got to be careful about that.   Mike (25:05.606) Yeah   Yeah, yeah, that's a great, great take on it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:11.245) Yeah, it's, yeah. It's a question I love to ask and I think it's about time for that. So, in a parallel universe, tell me about a different version of you. So a different but likely version, right? Like, for example, for me, I went to med school for a year and a half and then I dropped out and I ended up becoming an attorney. So that was like a big turning point, right? So I could have easily at some point just said screw it and became a doctor and that would have been a totally different route than I'm going down right now.   What's an example of something like that for you?   Mike (25:42.524) Wait, are you being serious about that? I took the MCAT too. I got into med school and then I, yeah, I was pretty mad in school. And then the more I learned about exercise science, I was like, organic chemistry is not fun.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:44.321) Yeah, totally.   yeah? There you go.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:57.39) It is not fun. I did not love that. I majored in exercise physiology and then I ended up switching to biology because it was just a little bit of an easier route to get my degree and go into med school and I went for a year and a half and then I dropped out because I absolutely hated it. I knew I didn't want to do it. I was just more attracted to business and that sort of thing.   Mike (26:16.346) Yeah, that's crazy. That's awesome. parallel universe. I, that's a really good question. I don't know. I, kinda, I have two kids under three and the other side of me wishes I would have traveled more.   you know, I mean, we'll get there hopefully when they get out of high school and someday. But right now I just think there's so many different cultural things and ways to skin the cat. And it's just fascinating to learn some of those things.   Mike (26:55.352) yourself in those cultures.   go to different cultures and really like understand how they did things for a time, a period of time to really just learn their thinking.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (27:07.777) Yeah, I love that man. I had a similar experience of what you're describing. I didn't travel abroad really other than like, you know, Canada and Mexico until I studied abroad in Barcelona during law school and I got to stay there for a couple of months. So you actually had some time. It wasn't like you're just visiting for a week or a weekend or anything like that. You got to kind of live there right for a couple of months and it just totally changed my, you know, my outlook on life and just the way that you see things like I feel like we're in the US and we just think   Mike (27:19.627) Seth Bradley, Esq. (27:37.76) US is number one and there's only one way to do things the way that we do things that kind of attitude. And then when you go to Western Europe and you see that culture and you drive or get on a train, it's like an hour away and you're in a totally different culture and they're doing it a certain way as well and it's working. You just see that other people are doing things differently and still being successful at it, still having a thriving culture and it's just awesome to see.   Mike (28:03.312) Yeah, absolutely.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (28:06.251) Yeah. Tell me about some major influences in your life. What turned you or got you into that, the vending business? It's not one of those typical things. mean, I know you're in the education business, so you're kind of really spreading the word about this type of business. But I would say when you started, there might not have been a mastermind or educational courses around this. mean, how did you kind of get drawn into that? Were there any particular people or influences that brought you in?   Mike (28:29.308) you   Mike (28:36.188) Yeah. So the, biggest influence for me to get into vending, uh, wasn't actually a person. It was actually, was, um, I had landed, I was coming back from the Pentagon from a trip back to the Bay for the startup we were talking about. And I was in the Denver airport and 11 PM, you know, our flight was delayed. And then they're like, Hey, you have to stay in the airport tonight. The pilot went over their hours for the day, blah, blah, blah. So I went to a vending machine and I remember buying a bottle of water.   I think it costs like at the time three bucks or something. I knew that bottle of water cost 20 cents at Costco. And I was like, there is someone that's at home with their kids right now making money off me and they're not even at this mission. Like the machine is doing the work. So I had like an aha moment of like, what are my true priorities in life? And like, why am I chasing this cutthroat startup from.   Palo Alto and trying to make it when reality was my priorities are freedom to spend more time with my family. So that's really kind of what led me into this path of starting a vending machine side hustle to keep our lifestyle as we had kids. We wanted to have a nanny and we wanted to be able to still go on dates and things like that as a couple with my wife. So that's really kind of my family and just like...   having the freedom to do things. Like that's what I'm really passionate about.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (29:59.084) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, building on that, and you may have already answered that, but what does success look like for you?   Mike (30:01.766) next   Mike (30:06.268) an empty calendar.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:08.621) Good luck with that. Good luck with that.   Mike (30:11.516) Oh man, I was gonna say, how do we crack that code? No, yeah. No, but I think success to me is doing things like picking up my daughter at three and even being able to say no to the things that aren't gonna get you to where you need, like the discipline piece of this too.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:15.708) man.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:33.995) Yeah, yeah, mean, you know, for me, it's kind of similar, right? It's not going to be able to empty that calendar. Not yet, at least maybe here in the future. But for now, it's pretty filled. But it is it's flexible, right? Like us as entrepreneurs, you know, we probably work more than we ever worked when we were in our W-2s. But at the same time, it's you know, we're working in our own business for ourselves, for our families. And we have the   Flexibility, a lot of people will say the freedom, right? But we have the flexibility to move things around. And if you want to pick your kids up at school at three, or you do want to take a weekend off, or something comes up in your schedule, you have the flexibility to do that. Whereas if you're kind of slaving away at the nine to five, you can't really do it.   Mike (31:04.486) Yeah. Yeah.   Mike (31:20.198) Yeah, that's spot on. mean, I just wrote that down, but flexibility is, cause you're right. When you started becoming an entrepreneur, this is what I tell people all the time when they want to get a venting around is like running your own business. You are going to work harder than you do for your boss currently at your W-2. Like you have to do payroll. You have to do, like you gotta like make sure there's money to actually do pay, you know, like all those things that you just don't even think about when you have a W-2. It's like, today's   Seth Bradley, Esq. (31:39.543) Yeah   Mike (31:48.89) You know, this Friday I get paid. Well, when you run a business, mean, that money's got to come from somewhere.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (31:51.905) Yeah   Right, yeah, 100%, man, 100%. All right, Mike, we're gonna wrap it up. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Tell the listeners where they can find out more about you.   Mike (32:05.286) Yeah, so thanks for having me. This has been great. I have free content all over the place. can find me on the classic Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, but I also have vendingpreneurs.com is where we help people that are more interested in actually the vending stuff. But I've been really trying to double down on YouTube lately because there's just a lot of content and you can't get it off a one minute reel.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (32:32.417) Love it, man. All right, Mike, appreciate it. Thanks for coming on the show.   Mike (32:35.91) Thanks for having me.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (32:37.227) Hi brother. Alright man, got a couple more questions for you. We do like a quick, kind of do the full podcast episode and then I'll just do kind of a quick episode that'll follow up on a Monday and then another one on a Friday. Cool.   Mike (32:55.814) See you.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (32:59.693) We out here.   Welcome to Million Dollar Mondays, how to make, keep, and scale a million dollars. Mike is a super successful entrepreneur in the vending machine business and beyond. Tell us, how did you make your first million dollars?   Mike (33:20.922) Yeah, Seth. It was probably actually through real estate and just getting a little bit kind of lucky with timing with COVID and short-term rentals and some of that. But yeah, that's probably how I got the first million.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:25.229) Mm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:37.079) Gotcha, cool. Yeah, real estate usually plays a role in the everybody's strategy down the line, whether they're in that primary business or not, whether they start out there or they end up there, real estate usually plays a part. How'd you make your last million?   Mike (33:53.956) Yeah, that's a good question because it's completely different than real estate, but it's actually been vending machines. So that's been kind of fun. just, you you talk about product market fit whenever you're an entrepreneur with a business. And that was just kind of the perfect storm right now of traditional vending really kind of being outdated. And we found a product market fit with it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:57.57) Right. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:16.215) Gotcha. Cool. that was from, was this maybe mostly attributed to kind of buying those routes, those larger routes?   Mike (34:23.32) Exactly. Yeah. Buying old school routes and really kind of flipping them like a house with modern micro markets charging, with different products and what would fit in a vending machine, like more of the unorthodox, you know, toilet paper and tide pods and things that wouldn't fit in a traditional vending machine. I mean, we'll sell $35 bottles of shampoo in these micro markets. So just kind of, go and add it in a different way.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:49.857) Yeah, and then with the aging population, there's gotta be more and more of these things popping up. So there should be more opportunity for people to get involved or for people like yourself to just snag everything, right?   Mike (35:01.102) Yeah, I think there's no chance I could snag everything, not even just in this town alone that I'm currently in. I mean, machines are getting cheaper, the technology is getting way better with AI. And nowadays, it's not what fits in a vending machine motor. It's okay, what's shelf space? if it's a bottle of shampoo or a glass Coke, it doesn't matter because it's not just getting thrown down the chute of a traditional machine.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (35:05.387) Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (35:27.521) Makes sense, makes sense. Last, how are you planning on making your next million dollars?   Mike (35:34.3) I think probably with AI, we're doing a lot of interesting stuff with helping people scale their, their vending routes. that is applicable to any, small business. And so I'm really intrigued. Just every time I go down a rabbit hole with some new AI tool, I feel like there's another better one that just came right behind it. So I just think it's kind of that time where you can really get ahead by just learning.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:06.209) Yeah, totally makes sense. mean people that are not paying attention to AI whether it's simply using chat GPT instead of Google search are getting left behind quickly because it's just advancing so fast. I can't even imagine what this world's gonna look like five years from now the way that things are moving.   Mike (36:23.132) It's crazy. Three years ago when I was working for a tech company selling software into the government, I would have to work with three secretaries to schedule a meeting with the general to sell their software. Now my EA is literally an AI bot and everyone that's scheduling time on my calendar, they don't even know they're talking to a non-human, which is pretty   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:43.479) Yeah, 100%. We're gonna, I predicted within five years, everybody's gonna have a humanoid robot in their home with AI instilled and they're gonna be doing physical things for us at our homes. Yeah. Yep. Yep. 100%. Awesome, All right, moving on to the next one.   Mike (36:50.181) Yeah!   Mike (36:57.917) I hope so. I hope they can go to Costco get all our groceries do our do our laundry The dishes   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:11.501) You're clearly in the top 1 % of what you do, Mike. What is it about you that separates you from the rest of the field?   Mike (37:19.056) Ooh, that's a good question, Seth. I think it's just discipline, know, discipline and focus. One of the hardest things is being able to say no with the things that don't align. And when I was growing up, I had a quote that has really stuck with me. That's like, it's better to be respected than liked. And I think that really resonates. Like naturally as a human, you want to be liked and help people, but the 1 % are really good at saying no.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:47.649) Yeah, I love that man. That's a great answer. Kind of building on that, what do you think the number one attribute is that makes a successful entrepreneur?   Mike (37:57.468) probably focus. Yeah. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (37:59.212) Yeah, focus. Yep. The one thing, right? The one thing.   Mike (38:04.186) Yep. That's why you come back to like the most successful entrepreneurs. They always niche down and they niche down because they just, got hyper-focused. Like this is kind of why for me, you know, I started this passive Mr. Passive on social media before I even got into Vendi. Well, now everyone's like, well, how passive is Vendi? And well, it's like, what's really interesting is I was posting all these different, what I thought passive income streams in the time, but everyone, 95 % of the questions I got about   Airbnbs are all my different investments was about bending. So I just niche down on, on bending and I just looked back on that and I was like, it really forced me to focus.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (38:43.263) Awesome, awesome. What's one thing someone could do today to get 1 % closer to success in the vending machine business if they are really interested in learning more?   Mike (38:53.892) tap into your connections and find a location that has high foot traffic, whether that's a friend that works at an urgent care, a sister that lives at an apartment. You know, you take your kid to that gymnastics studio that has a ton of foot traffic between 4 PM and 8 PM. Like all those locations are prime locations to put one of these modern smart machines in. so, tapping into your connections, well, you know,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:24.567) Love that man. Awesome. All right, Mike, I appreciate it, brother. We'll to meet in person sometime,   Mike (39:30.574) I would love to. Where are you based, Seth?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:31.789) I'm in San Diego, where you at?   Mike (39:34.78) I am in Eugene. Yeah, Oregon. I'll come down your way though.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (39:37.39) Cool We're planning on doing yeah, we're planning on doing so me and my wife we have a Sprinter van and Last May we did we did going back to the flexibility piece, right? We did 32 days in the van up through Wyoming Montana and then into like Into Canada and they're like Banff and Jasper and all the way up to Jasper and then we circled back on the west coast Through Vancouver and then down back to San Diego Yeah   Mike (40:05.52) What?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:06.829) Pretty wild, pretty awesome. And the reason I brought that up is this year we're gonna do shorter trip. We're probably gonna do two, maybe three weeks at the most, but we're gonna do kind of the Pacific Northwest. So Oregon, Washington, and Vancouver and all those parks and stuff up there.   Mike (40:17.254) Yeah.   Mike (40:21.744) Yeah, you definitely have a, have you been to Bend before? Bend is like my, that whole area, Central Oregon is, and even Idaho, like all those kind of, yeah. That's awesome. Please let me know when you're up this way. I mean, I'll come meet you wherever. That'd be amazing. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:24.641) Yeah, yeah I have.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:38.861) Sure man grab a coffee or beer. I appreciate it. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah all right brother great to meet you and I will send the information on when this is gonna get released and give you you materials and all that stuff so we can collaborate on social media   Mike (40:51.964) Okay. Okay. Yeah. Is a lot of your audience, like passive investors?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (40:58.593) So most of that, so now I'm rebranding. I rebranded because I'm gonna be speaking more towards like active entrepreneurs, Active entrepreneurs, people raising capital, that sort of thing. Whereas before it was based on passive investors and people really focused on attorneys. So I'm an attorney and I was raising capital from attorneys for my real estate deals. Now I'm really more into selling shovels. I'm scaling my law firm. I'm chief legal officer for Tribest, which is, we've got a fund to fund.   Mike (41:20.262) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (41:28.085) legal product there as well. So we're really trying to bring in active, active entrepreneurs and people raising capital.   Mike (41:29.777) Yeah.   Mike (41:36.572) Okay, because I got that, I was just thinking through when we talking about that oil development project, that could be a good, the guy that runs that fund could be a good interview for you. Just thinking through your audience, because he's always looking for investors into his fund and like these oil lubs are just crushing it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (41:49.901) Cool. Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (41:58.464) Yeah, cool. Who is it? Just, I don't know if I know him or not.   Mike (42:02.183) Um, Robert Durkey, he's out of Florida. has, his problem is he's sitting on a gold mine that has no, like he's old school, doesn't know social media, any of that. So that's why I think he'd be perfect for you. Cause I think you could help him and he could definitely help you with some kickback. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully we meet soon. Okay. See you Seth. Bye.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:05.645) I don't think I know. I don't think I know.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:13.889) Yeah. Gotcha.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (42:20.705) Cool, okay, sounds good man. Yeah, I appreciate the introduction.   Yeah, all right brother. Talk soon. See ya. Links from the Show and Guest Info and Links: Seth Bradley's Links: https://x.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.youtube.com/@sethbradleyesq www.facebook.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.threads.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.instagram.com/sethbradleyesq/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethbradleyesq/ https://passiveincomeattorney.com/seth-bradley/ https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/sethbradleyesq https://medium.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.tiktok.com/@sethbradleyesq?lang=en Mike Hoffman's Links: https://www.instagram.com/mikehoffmannofficial/ https://x.com/mrpassive_?lang=en https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedhoffmann/ https://www.tiktok.com/@mr.passive

In this episode we're introduced to Beatty Carmichael, author of 'The Prayer of Freedom,' who shares his journey of using prayer for healing various ailments. Beatty discusses his methods and experiences, including empirical results from his work at an addiction recovery center. The podcast emphasizes the importance of incorporating prayer alongside traditional medical treatments but advises listeners to consult their healthcare professionals before making any changes. Beatty's spiritual approach has reportedly yielded impressive results across various chronic conditions. 00:00 Sponsor Message: 7 5 3 Academy 00:48 Introduction to the Podcast 01:22 Creating a Sanctuary: A Place of Rest 02:11 Guest Introduction: Beatty Carmichael 05:45 Beatty's Background and Healing Journey 08:41 The Power of Prayer in Healing 12:29 Scientific Approach to Spiritual Healing 21:05 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser 21:34 Closing Remarks and Contact Information Bio: Beatty Carmichael is a leading expert in spiritual laws and how they affect our health, emotions, and behaviors. After 25 years in business, he uncovered a radical truth: most pain, mental illness, sickness, and trauma aren't rooted in physical or emotional causes, but in the spiritual realm. By identifying and removing the specific spiritual roots behind these struggles, he's helped over1,000 people find freedom from things like chronic pain, anxiety, addiction, depression, suicidal thoughts, and even bipolar disorder—issues that medical science often can't resolve. Once the root is gone, the problem typically disappears in less than 24 hours—with a documented 90% success rate. Beatty outlines this simple, step-by-step method in his book, The Prayer of Freedom, available at www.ThePrayerOfFreedomBook.com. Today, he'll expose why so many people stay stuck—and how anyone can experience real, lasting healing by targeting the root issue most others overlook. To get freedom in your life, get a copy of The Prayer of Freedom today. It's available at every bookstore, but the best place to go is book's website at www.ThePrayerOfFreedomBook.com where you'll find additional information, discounts, and a free gift.   Beatty Carmichael Part One [00:00:00] I do have a sponsor 7 5 3 Academy. Our martial art program specialized in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. Kali We take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Our fitness community is friendly and supportive without the over the top muscle gym atmosphere. Our coaching staff are professionally trained with over 30 years of experience. Get started by claiming your free class voucher. So go to the link in the show notes. This is in the Phoenix Metro area, so reach out to Coach David and coach Eric over at 7 5 3 Academy. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic [00:01:00] violence advocate, Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello and welcome to the podcast. Come on in, take a deep breath, breathe out. It's pretty crazy out there right now. Hopefully this is a sanctuary for you, a place of rest. A place to come and take a load off, a peaceful place and try and make it that way. Say a prayer. I hope that you've been enjoying the guests that we've had on the show recently. We do have a great guest for you this week as well. We're gonna be talking about [00:02:00] prayer when it comes to wellness. We are certainly big on prayer here and trying to find ways to heal from domestic violence and abuse. And my guest today is Beatie Carmichael, and he's gonna tell us our prayer. Is instrumental in healing. Uh, I wanna tell you a little about his bio here. Beatty Carmichael is the author of the book, the Prayer of Freedom. He has developed a way of praying for healing. God actually answers those prayers around 87% of the time. With this process, he has seen God heal over 700 people. Everything from relationship [00:03:00] conflicts, all kinds of chronic pain, anxiety, glaucoma, and more. Some people think God doesn't answer prayers for healing because they've never seen him do it for them, but Beatty has found that with the right approach, God does it almost every time. So if you struggle with relationship conflicts, chronic pain, migraines, depression, anxiety, panic attacks, and more, you're in for a big treat. With today's guest as Beatty shares the root cause of most of these issues and a simple four step approach in prayer to get lasting freedom from them today. So I do want to say when we're talking about healthcare issues, 'cause I work in healthcare. Yes, prayer is definitely a part of [00:04:00] healing. The hospital that I belong to, that I work at definitely believes in faith and incorporating prayer as part of the treatment plan. And some of the stories and examples that he's going to give are pretty miraculous. Just want to make sure that you are following your medical professional's advice, whether it's a medical doctor or a psychiatrist, psychologist. Pharmacist. That you are following their professional advice. Don't stop taking your medication or don't stop taking your cancer treatment unless it is approved by your doctor who is in charge of you. I have to say that because, a lot of lawsuits happen, especially here in the United States, you know, the whole, this is not to diagnose, cure, treat any [00:05:00] disease. We all see that on things like vitamins and so forth. But at the same time, we are open-minded to other ways of healing, particularly. Spiritual ways of healing is a little bit of a different take on healing. So we wanna be open-minded to other options that may work for you that may supplement what you're doing now. We certainly need God's help when it comes to healing because he is the great physician. So I am, excited as to what he has for us today and what he has to show for us. So enjoy my conversation with Beatty Carmichael. I'm excited to welcome my guest today, Beatie Carmichael from Birmingham, Alabama. Welcome. Well, thank you, Diana. I'm glad to be here. We're gonna talk about your book, the [00:06:00] Prayer of Freedom and about prayer and healing. So I'm very excited to have you today. Now, are you a survivor yourself or any of your family members? No, but I teach at a place where I deal with survivors all day long. Yeah. You say you teach a class on spiritual warfare at a Women's Addiction Recovery center. Yeah. So tell us about that, your ladies that you help. So, it's the largest addiction recovery center in America. They house over 500 women, and they're all recovering from addiction. Usually with addiction, you have all kinds of trauma, childhood abuse, you have all kinds of parental, loved one abuse and just all this stuff that goes with it. And I teach, two or three classes and I've been doing it for three years and love to just grow and to love the ladies and really understand a lot of the challenges they go [00:07:00] through. And I, I do teach a class on spiritual warfare. And the subtitle is How to Get Free of These Torments that They that struggle with. And it's the number one class in this facility because most of my students, when they come in, they leave being freed of most of the junk that they've been carrying for most of their life. And they're able to let go and finally start to be on a platform where they can move forward in life. So it's been really cool. Wow. You come from a family of doctors, I understand? Yes. So I come from a line of seven generations of medical doctors and I'll have to brag on mayo Clinic. So my dad, when he was in surgery, he entered surgery when specialties were just coming out, and so he was a vascular surgeon. His specialty were the carotid arteries on the either side of the neck, and it's very critical because if any of, if one of those bursts, you got [00:08:00] minutes before the eyes. Right? And so my dad had the highest. The quickest route recovery quickest surgery, lowest complication, even higher, better numbers than the guys at the Mayo Clinic. So we always thought, Hey, that's pretty cool, wow. Mayo Clinic. But he retired, 15, 18 years ago. But seven generations consecutively of medical doctors. I didn't go into medicine, but I took the same approach. To work on healing, which is a scientific approach, and I help people get healed through more of a prayer approach than a medicine approach. And it's been really cool. So was there like an event that brought you into this prayer? Yeah. I'll tell you the story as it is, whether you believe it or not, or whether you, okay. So I end up going into business. I'm actually a small business owner by trade and vocation. I [00:09:00] helped real estate agents get listings. It's a little company called agent dominator.com and about nine years ago, the Lord started put this burden on my heart to want to bring healing into people's lives and looking backwards. I can kind of see now, sort of this healing mantle in my generations and it was always there, but had been suppressed for me. But he started to awaken it and he led me eight and a half years ago to simply go out and try to pray for people for healing. And so, with a little bit of anxiety, but kind of this urge to try it. I went out to a Walmart and I walk up to people that look like they're in pain. They're limping, they're riding one of those scooters because they can't walk. Things of that sort. And I just asked, Hey, I'm out praying for people. Can I pray for you on anything? Are you in pain? Right? And I saw a third of the people. Uh, now you have to understand my definition of healing may be a little bit different. I call [00:10:00] it heal. But since we're on a kind of a medical type show, I wanna be clear on this, it was a total cessation of symptoms. Okay? Okay. So, like, the, one of the first ladies, she was she had degenerative disc in her neck and degenerative disc in her lower back. She was racked in arthritis and she had lupus and she was riding one of these little electric scooters and she had an assistant with her to help her get things off the shelf because she couldn't even look up. Mm-hmm. So I prayed for her and I said, well, stand up and let's see if it works. Right. And she stands up, no pain. She can move her neck all the way around. She can li you know, I mean everything as if. There was nothing there anymore, so I would call that being healed. She didn't go to the doctor, so we don't have a medical diagnosis, but everything that she couldn't do, she could do now without pain. And I started to see a third of the people I prayed for what that type of stuff would happen. And then within about a year or so, I got it up to about 90%. [00:11:00] People like with glaucoma, their eyes would, they can now see people who couldn't hear would now hear. I mean, these things that we would say, uh, like one first ones was a lady with RSD. She had on this compression sleeve on her right arm. And I said, can I pray for you? She said, yes, but don't touch it. I said, what's going on? I have RSD. And I said, oh, okay. Like, I knew what it was. I had no idea what RSD is about, When I went back and told dad about this, and I told him about RSD, he said, RSD. Is a neuropathy type of a neurological issue. It's extremely painful and it's incurable. And if she no longer has pain, he said that's a miracle, right? But after I prayed for her, you could touch her arm and she, I mean, everything was just normal. So I started to go this direction and then what happened that led me into where we're going with the prayer freedom is after about seven years of this, and I would say about a hundred people a year. All these things disappear. I'd go out and I was seeing nine outta 10 people, [00:12:00] whatever, as I prayed for all the symptoms, completely disappear. And then in a period of two weeks, I went back out and I now only saw one outta 10. And it baffled me, you know, I, I'm a scientist. I say, you keep doing the same thing, you should get the same result, right? So I went in prayer and asked God, what's going on? And God said, I took that gift of healing away. I said, why? He said, because now I want you to do it based on authority. And I understood what he meant. This is one of the things I've been experimenting with along the way is some of these spiritual laws and how, to define for you and the audience. You have several types of sciences. One is a physical science, right? So in physical sciences, I like, I have a pen, and if I let go of the pen, it drops. And every time I let go of the pen, it drops. And if you were to pick up your pen and let go of it, it would drop. So we can conclude. There's a physical law, we call it gravity because mm-hmm. Every time you do the same result, [00:13:00] same activity always gets the same result. So we can say there's a law that we can't see, but it's empirically provable. I started to see the same thing in the spiritual realm. And I call it spiritual realm because it's just not the physical realm. I don't know what realm it is. I just call it spirit. And that spiritual realm is when we pray a certain process over here, the same result always occurs over on this other side. And that's where God was starting to send me. So I would go back out to Walmart in places and I would take them through a process rather than me praying for them, I would lead them in prayer and they started getting the same result of all kinds of things that. We would call a miracle be only because we can't explain how in the world could that happen. And then God told me to write this into a book and that's what came out with the prayer freedom. And as I'm teaching at this Addiction Recovery Center, these women have all kinds of [00:14:00] issues. If you're familiar with anyone with addiction, there's a lot of trauma that goes with it. Usually in early age, and then you have, as a result of that, you have all kinds of things like bipolar, you have anxiety and depression and panic attacks. You have sometimes voices in your head, all kinds of chronic pain. And for these ladies also lots of addiction. And I worked out a worksheet where you make a list of the things that are the spiritual roots I was able to identify. And I gave them a prayer of just how to pray to God and include these spiritual roots basically saying, I'm sorry about doing this, or I'm sorry about doing that. And so I gave it to my three classes. I first had to make a list of all the issues they were going through, so all this stuff that, the mental illnesses, the chronic pains, and the addiction urges and anything else, and rate those, illness, those levels on a scale of zero to [00:15:00] 10. 10 being worse, zero being, they don't have it. They don't feel it, they can't identify it. And then I had them go through this process on their own. 'cause I wanted to measure was does this really work or is it just something with me? So I came back a month later and they turned in their papers after praying through going through this process. And I found that of those who completed it, 87% of them. Saw pretty much everything on their list go to a zero, just like totally disappear out of their lives. The 13% of the people saw almost no movement. Okay? So I'm not sure what's going on with the 13%, but for almost nine outta 10, it just like almost everything left, which is interesting. I won't thing about that until just now. Those are the same numbers I saw praying for people, right? Nine outta 10. I see the same thing with this. Yet, this is now a systematic approach. And so [00:16:00] that's why I say it's a spiritual approach to on spiritual laws, because these ladies, they're, some are atheists, some may probably Buddhist or Hindu. Others are Christian. Others are just agnostic. It doesn't matter to their religion. It's just that the framework of there's probably a God that created us. If, have you ever heard Diana of Karma? Do you know what karma is? Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm. So a lot of people say, you know, karma, you do bad things, bad things are gonna happen to you, kind of this cause, right? Yeah. Well, the Bible actually talks about that as as a root of sickness. And I use the Bible because it's been really accurate spiritually from the spiritual laws. And one of the things it says is, it says, actually two things. Number one in the Old Testament, it says, if you sin against God, uh, this is in a book called Deuteronomy. It said, if you sin against God and don't obey him, then he'll send on you all these sicknesses and diseases. And then over in the New [00:17:00] Testament at the end of the Bible, in James five 16, it says, if you confess your sins, you'll be healed. So it shows both of these spiritual laws. You do something bad against God, sickness and diseases, and then if you confess your sin, which means to repent and be sorry for them, then he will heal you. And that's basically the premise of this, of the prayer freedom is identifying these things that we may have done that maybe is against what God wants us to do. And when we say we're sorry and ask him to heal it, then we find a lot of these things just kind of disappear. I do wanna be real, since we're on a medical call, let me get this claimer. Okay. If you're under the care of a doctor, don't stop anything until you get their doctor's for approval, right? Because Yes, thank you. Yeah, because some of this stuff, it may not be exactly what you're thinking, but more than anything else, there's a lot of stuff that we don't want to fill with, especially when you get into prescription type of drugs. Okay. And there's a lot of issues there. So, [00:18:00] if you're on any sort of prescriptions or any other therapies before you stop it, even if you think you can, go talk to the doctor first and get permission. Great. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Now you're talking about prayer, but. Would you call yourself a prayer warrior? What is your spiritual background? Like, were you really good at praying or no? What was it like for you growing up? I went to a very liberal church initially that really didn't teach much, other than feel good is the way I would describe it. Then I moved to another church that was very legalistic. Very dogmatic. Mm-hmm. And there was like no love. Right? Right. And so this whole thing of prayer, what really happened to me is I was, you know, I claim, I'm a Christian as my chosen religion, but it wasn until God started to heal people, when I would pray for them. I got really [00:19:00] curious about what this thing is all about and really curious, is prayer really that effective? Right, because it's, I'd never seen that before. Oh, I pray, but I'm not sure I could really say because I prayed something happened. And a lot of times I just wouldn't pray about things because it is like you just kind of pray and goes up in this ether somewhere and we hope maybe something happens good from it. Taking vitamins. We take vitamins, but we can't really track anything specific. We just know it's probably good. Unless you have scurvy? Yeah. Unless you have scurvy or something. Vitamin That vitamin C. But once I started to see people starting to be healed, it really prompted a high level of curiosity to understand what's going on. And this is where I think I call it the scientific mind. Only because doctors are scientists, they're medical scientists and so while they are medical doctors, I call myself a prayer doctor, right? Because they use medicine to heal. I figured out a way to [00:20:00] use prayer to heal so that I wouldn't call myself a prayer warrior. If anything, I would say I'm a scientist, a spiritual scientist or a prayer doctor. I'm not sure. But yeah, so that's how I started. And then over the years I started to identify these spiritual laws that the Bible talked about. And then I would go out and test them and start to pick up a consistent pattern of, I'll call it empirical data that was just irrefutable. And I go, wow, this works. And it no longer works because of me. It works because someone else is following the process. So I know a couple atheists very well, and we've had some conversations, very spirited conversations about Yeah, that God doesn't exist. You mentioned that this would work for anyone, even atheist. So they would say prayer is communication and worship of a [00:21:00] deity. So. Why would an atheist go for that? Just curious. I think this is a great place to stop. I know that you're gonna wanna hear more stories and more about this healing with prayer as to how it works and how you can incorporate it into your treatment plan. He has a lot more to say, so I encourage you to be here next time on the Woods of the Faithful Podcast. Thanks for listening. God bless you. Have a great week. Bye for now. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next [00:22:00] week.

Quaranteam-Northwest: Part 8 Summer Plans Based on a post by Break The Bar. Listen to the ► Podcast at Explicit Novels.  At dinner I checked in with Ivy first, then Vanessa when she had finished for the day and joined us. I also made a point of stopping to check in with Dani to see what she was thinking about her new co-team members, who she thought would work out fine, and Kyla. "I think she's a lot quieter than the rest of us," Dani told me as we sat side by side near Leo's RV. "Which isn't a bad thing, obviously. She isn't as used to being around girls like us though. Erica worked with strippers because of her job, along with all sorts of other crazy people, so it's whatever for her. Kyla obviously isn't used to how open we all are about sex things." I pressed my lips together and nodded, watching her as she sat in a group with Erica, Vanessa and Aria chatting. She was obviously engaged, but didn't offer much to the conversation and seemed happy to listen. "Anything else?" I asked. "Anything weird come up?" "No. Should I be watching for something?" Danielle asked. "No, no," I assured her. "I just; Erica, Ivy, Vanessa; it's working. It's crazy, but it's working. I'm worried about Kyla messing that up." "It should be fine," Dani said, patting me on the shoulder. "Erica will Mom them into shape if things get out of whack, and if she's the problem you can just spank her until she apologizes." That made me snort and shake my head with a grin. "You and her talk too much." "Or maybe we don't talk enough," Dani grinned. We folded ourselves back into the larger conversations, me joining the group with Kyla while Dani went to sit with Leo, India and Ivy. As the sun was setting we busted out the fire pit and Vanessa pointed me towards the nearest brush piles I could harvest some wood from; it seemed she'd handily directed some of her workers to pile it within easy walking distance. Then, once the fire was crackling and we all had our drinks of choice, we told the new women our story. We started with Leo and I, then how Erica had joined us for quarantine. We both teased her about hearing her masturbating, which until that moment she hadn't realized had been the case and made her blush. Then we talked about the land lease, the construction, and the introduction of Dani, Vanessa, and Ivy. Vanessa told us how fucking crazy she thought we were at first, but after that first night around the fire she'd realized something weird but special was going on so she stopped judging and started getting a little jealous. Then Ivy told her perspective, stepping into a life with Erica and me. Then we had to tell the story of Vanessa joining us, which got rushed over really quickly and then had to be retold because even Dani hadn't gotten all the details. I'd purposefully sat beside Kyla around the fire, Erica taking the spot on the other side of me. As India and Aria started ragging on Vanessa for not giving them the full story in the initial car ride when they met her, Kyla leaned over to me. "Can we talk? In private?" "Sure," I said, nodding towards our RV. I leaned back in the other direction to Erica and kissed her cheek, and she met my eye and nodded. Inside the RV Kyla had taken the Murphey seat this time so I sat on the bench opposite her. "You still feeling alright?" I asked her. "No," she laughed. Inside, in the more steady light of the RV, I could see she was flushed even with her slightly darker Filipina skin. "I feel like I've got a fever, but it's concentrated in all my erogenous zones. I don't even like women but that story about Vanessa has me..." She blew out a long breath. "I don't know how much more sex talk I can take before I snap." "I can ask them to stop if you want. Or we can have that conversation if you think you're ready." "I'm; Yeah, I'm ready to talk," she said. She took another deep breath and sat up straighter, putting her hands on her knees like she was trying to focus herself. "You can ask anything you want, and I'll try to answer," I promised her. "I don't have questions," she said. "Well, I actually have lots of questions, but they aren't important right this second. Seeing you with Erica and Ivy, and meeting Vanessa. Hearing the way Leo and Danielle talk about you. I think I know what I'd be getting into if I do this with you. And to be honest, it sounds pretty greater considering the other options that the world seems to be moving toward right now. But I never want to be someone who just takes the easy thing because it's in front of them. I know a lot about you now, but you don't know much about me. And I'll tell you, pretty much anything you want to know, but there's something I need to know if you're Okay with. More than my past, more than whatever your government is worried about." "The only way to know is to ask," I said, trying not to let my own nerves out. Kyla, who had been steady throughout the day, was showing signs of anxiety amidst her hard pressure to keep herself under control. "If I don't like it, we can try and find someone else as soon as possible." "I don't want,” She bit her tongue, cutting herself off, and took a breath. "Harrison. If I do this, if I imprint on you, this is my out. I've been doing everything my father wanted since I was a kid. The only escape I ever had was through dance, and even that he took control of to make sure I was getting the best lessons and tutors and going to the best camps and schools. And even then, he and NICA used it as well. My entire life I've been pushed and trained and taught and used because I didn't matter and my country and my service did. I want a new life, Harri. But I want that life the way I want it. I want a big family. I was an only child, and my parents tolerated each other at best in a political marriage. I want six kids at least, more if we can. Fuck, I'll pop out an even dozen and be happy. Or maybe not, maybe I'll be happy earlier than that, but I know I want a lot of kids to love on and raise in a big, supportive family. "If you can handle that, and if Erica can handle that because I know she's going to need to agree to it too, then I swear to God I'll be loyal to you and only to you. My father, NICA, my country; I can leave them all behind and in the dust if you can promise me we'll try to make my dream life happen. And I promise I'll be the best, hottest housewife I can be for as long as you can keep me barefoot and pregnant. I'll make sure I'm fit and tight and everything I can be for you in between pregnancies, but God I want this, Harri. I've never told anyone this before, but I want it so fucking bad." I didn't know what to say. She was practically sobbing in her earnest desire for what she was asking. I just slid down to my knees on the floor of the RV and wrapped my arms around her and Kyla clutched at me as she panted hard. Not crying, but desperately trying to control herself. "Kyla, I would be an extremely lucky man if I can give that all to you," I said. "And I want to tell you yes right away, but you're right. I do need to check with Erica first. Do you want me to call her in to ask her now?" She hesitated a moment, then nodded and sat back on the chair, sucking in a deep and unsteady breath. I stood up and opened the RV door, sticking my head out. All three of my women looked over to me and I made what I hoped was a reassuring smile, then locked eyes with Erica and motioned her over with a head jerk. She joined us, shutting the RV door behind her. "What's up?" she asked. "Everything Okay?" I looked at Kyla. "Do you want me to ask, or you?" "I; You," she said after hesitating. I turned to Erica and reached out, holding her hand. "So, I know we had our conversation earlier, but I didn't realize this was coming or maybe we would have talked about it more seriously. Kyla is ready to join us, but she has an ask. Because of her own family past, one thing she wants more than anything is to have kids. A whole bunch of them. So she wants to know if you and I are Okay with that and willing for that to happen, or if we should try to find her someone else who can help her get the life she wants." Erica's eyes had widened as I was speaking and her jaw worked a few times before she could find the right words. Then she turned to Kyla and looked at her for a long, long moment before putting a hand on her shoulder. "That's the most important thing for you?" she asked quietly. Kyla nodded, then looked up to meet Erica's gaze. "More than anything else. And I want to do that with Harrison; God, I haven't even known him a day but it's like I can see it right there in front of me. He'd make a great husband and an even better father. I just know he's yours more than either of the others, and I couldn't risk saying yes to him without you saying yes to this." "God, fuck," Erica sighed, and I realized she was tearing up as well. She looked to me. "Yes, obviously, if it's what she needs then yes. But I guess now I need to stop taking the pill because I'm not just gonna sit by and not be in the running for the first mother of your child." Now it was my turn to be surprised. "But we just,” She kissed me to shut me up. "It doesn't matter," she said. "I love you, you love me. If the world implodes and we're all shot off into space, I still won't regret making a kid with you." She turned to Kyla. "Are you going to love him?" "I'm going to try," she said. "And I'll work harder at it than my parents ever did." "Then yes," Erica said. "But, and I'll only ever say this once and you need to listen to me closely, if this isn't the truth and you hurt Harrison or me or anyone else here then I swear to everything in heaven and hell that I will end you. Do we understand each other?" Kyla nodded, taking her seriously. "I do, and I won't." "Okay," Erica said, and leaned down and kissed her on the forehead. "You clearly need a fuck, so unless you've suddenly turned Bi then I should leave you to it." She turned to me and kissed me hard, and I hugged her to keep her close. "You're sure?" I asked her in a whisper. She nodded. "Rock her world, babe. Show her why she's one of the four luckiest women on the planet." She kissed my cheek, squeezed my fingers in hers, and then stepped away and out of the RV. Kyla looked like she was going to jump out of her seat. "So,” I started. Kyla stood up abruptly and grabbed me by the face, smashing her plush lips to mine. I naturally grabbed her by the waist as we started making out right there in the middle of the RV. She'd been wearing that bulky coverall the entire day and now she started to scramble to try and get it unzipped and off at the same time as trying to get me to get my shirt off, which just turned into an awkward mess of her hands moving back and forth between us. "Stop, stop," I murmured, pulling my lips from hers. She actually whined a little in her throat and then blinked in surprise at her own reaction. I picked her up and she wrapped her legs around my waist as I carried her back towards the bed. Like this, she was taller than me and she bent down to kiss me some more, making it hard for me to navigate. Thankfully it was a straight shot, and there wasn't a lip at the door to the bedroom area that I needed to duck under or step over. I found the bed with my shin and stopped and lowered her down onto it so we lay somewhere in the middle, me on top of her as we kept making out. Once we were done I pulled away and tugged off my shirt. "Fuck," she groaned, looking at me hungrily. "Not what you're used to?" I asked. She shook her head. "No, so much better." She raised her hands to my stomach and up to my chest, letting her fingers play through my chest hair. I couldn't help myself and I reached down and unzipped the coverall down to her belly button. Underneath, all she had on was a set of black bra and panties. On the one hand, I was starting to get mesmerized by her body very quickly, but on the other, I remembered in the back of my mind that she hadn't arrived with any luggage. I lifted her from under her arms and she let me help her pull the coveralls off, then raised her ass so I could pull them from her legs as well. I crashed back down onto her, now feeling her smooth skin on mine. Her body was everything I would have expected from a dancer; smooth and sleek all over, with toned muscling and a sort of feline grace as she moved around. "Where; are; your clothes; and things?" I asked between kisses. "They said; they would bring; them up; from Cali,” she replied. Then she stopped the kissing and looked up at me. "Seriously, I've got this fucking craving for your cock right now like I can't believe, Harri. I need you to fuck me so fucking bad." "Okay," I said, and then kissed her again as I reached under her to unsnap her bra. When she realized what I wanted she didn't even bother with the snap, she just yanked the black cups off her tits and the whole thing over her head. Her tits were a perfect size for my big hands to palm, a bit bigger than Ivy's but much smaller than Erica's, and her dark brown areolas were smooth and a little puffy, with two perfect nubs for nipples. I sucked on one, feeling how hard they were, but she was stretching to try and get my shorts off of me. She needed the imprinting. We could always explore each other more in the future. I leaned away from her, one hand still on her tit and holding her down, as I shoved down my shorts and boxers. For her part, she pushed her panties down to her knees and I pulled them the rest of the way off. Her cunt was a gorgeous brown, flushed darker than the skin above and slick with her chemically-induced horniness. Even her clit hood was a little pulled back, the softer pink of her clit just visible from being swollen. She was entirely bare, and I wondered if that was a personal choice or a seduction tactic she'd been told to follow. Not that I cared at the moment. I wanted to eat her out and taste her. I wanted to make this last, to wow her like Erica had said. Fuck, let's be real, I wanted to impress the seductive honey trap spy with my sex skills. "Fuck my brains out," Kyla demanded. "Fuck me until I can only ever think of you. Take me and make me yours, you fucking massive wall of American god." I could impress her later. Her cunt accepted my cock like a perfectly tailored suit. I slid in, and even though she was tight and her muscles were firm as hell as they clenched at me she was also extremely willing. That changed when I was almost all the way in though, but not from want of trying. Kyla came, her entire body rolling and arching as her cunt clenched down enough to almost start forcing my cock out. She grabbed me around the shoulder and hugged herself up, clinging to me, and her hips roiled as she thrust hard up and down. Her eyes were squeezed shut, her lips curled in an ugly snarl for a long moment, until the orgasm passed and she let go of me, falling a couple of inches back to the bed with a 'whumph.' "H-Holy fuck," she panted, looking up at me in confusion. "What was that? That,” She blinked rapidly. "Did no one tell you about the first orgasm?" I asked her. She shook her head, still blinking like she was trying to gain her focus. "Fuck me and tell me," she said. I started to slow-thrust, enjoying the delicious warmth of her as I leaned down a bit more, pressing my full body against hers as she spread her legs wider for me. "They told Erica in the information session that she should expect a massive orgasm the first time she ingested a man's precum, and the biggest one of her life when they ingest their actual cum." "She got an information session?" Kyla panted, looking slightly alarmed. "You didn't?" I asked, equally alarmed. We'd both stopped thrusting at each other, not sure what to do. "Fuck it, fucking fuck me," she said and rolled her body to get my cock deeper inside her again. I wasn't going to argue with that. We fucked like that, mutually, for a bit and then I took some more control and went up high on my hands for better leverage and started to fuck her harder. Kyla moaned and panted beneath me, then raised her lips up and sucked on one of my nipples, which was an oddly pleasurable surprise, and then she took some of my hairy pec muscle between her teeth and bit me lightly as she came again. "Ow," I said when she dropped back to the bed again. "Sorry," she panted. "I just; you're really fucking good." Huh, maybe I can impress the spy, I thought. "I'm getting closer," I told her. I'd had... well, not the most amount of sex I'd had in a day, but a bunch, so I wasn't entirely surprised I was lasting as long as I was. "Do you want to try something else?" "I want to try everything with you," she gasped and kissed me. "But... let me..." I disengaged with her, which made her moan like a whore, and she scrambled around on the bed until she was at the bottom corner on her back. Then she spread her legs wide into a full split, and then even wider until she had one leg practically parallel with her torso and the other was way out to the other side. If she was a clock, she would have been showing 10 o'clock. "Fuck me hard. Use my hole," she said, licking her lips. "Get your cock back inside; yes! Oh, fuck, Harrison. Make my cunt fucking squirm. Make your cunt squirm. It's yours now. I'm yours. My whole body. Fuck! I've never felt it like this before. I've never felt anything like this." I was crushing down into her in big, hard strokes and I could feel her cunt squishing with her juices and my balls slapping against her ass cheeks. I was hovering over her and a bead of sweat had trailed down to the end of my nose. Kyla opened her mouth and stuck her tongue out, licking it off of me. I lowered the rest of the way to her and kissed her hard, then hugged her tightly as I started pumping short and quick, barely leaving her cunt. "I can't wait to fall in love with you," I whispered to her. "I can't wait to make babies with you, and start a family." "Do it," she gasped. "Put a baby in me. Make my womb yours forever. Breed me, make me your breeding wife-whore. Love me, may-ari. Oh, fucking; that's what you are, you beautiful big bastard. You're my may-ari. My owner. I choose you. I choose; I,” I couldn't have stopped from coming in her if my life depended on it. She was pushing towards her own orgasm already, and her years of dance and other physical activity had turned her core into a vice that sucked at my cock like a hoover. I came as she lost her grip on her words, chanting about choosing me. She came as well, a scream quenched in her throat as her entire body flexed and tensed. I filled her up, releasing over and over in her, but I finished before she did and just went right back to fucking her since my cock hadn't gone soft yet and she was still coming. I only stopped when she went slack, her legs falling back to a more natural position, and her face went from that clenched teeth-gritting tension to a soft, satisfied smile. "Imprinting. Imprinting. Imprinting." I pulled away from her slowly, making sure she wasn't going to fall from the bed, and found that the entire bottom corner and the edge of the mattress were wet and sticky with juices. Along with my legs, crotch and hips. "Great, another squirter," I sighed. Not that I actually minded, but it just meant we'd be doing even more laundry in the tiny machine the RV held. I stood and, once I felt like I could be coordinated enough, I picked Kyla up in a cradle and lifted her higher on the bed and tucked her in. She was in the fetal position, still mumbling the imprinting sequence with that smile. I had to grab a new pair of shorts since mine had ended up in the splash zone, and I didn't bother putting on a shirt but did wipe myself down with some wet paper towel. Stumbling out of the RV, I was greeted by catcalls and applause. Looking around, the fire was still going and someone had stocked it higher with wood. Erica, Dani and Vanessa were all sitting in the Adirondack chairs, and Ivy was sitting curled up in Erica's lap. "Where are Leo and the girls?" I asked, trying my best not to let them show the embarrassment I knew they were going for with their teasing. "Aria and India were going to fuck, and invited Leo to watch," Dani smirked. "So I assume he's in there either jerking off, or fucking." "I don't need to picture that," Erica rolled her eyes. I stepped over and kissed Vanessa as she leaned her head back and reached up to hug me around the neck. Then I slipped around the circle to Ivy and Erica and kissed both of them. Dani opened her arms to me as well, so I hugged her and she kissed my cheek. "Congrats," she said as I pulled away. "Pops." "Oh, God," I groaned and looked at Erica. "You told them?" "Was I supposed to keep it a secret?" she countered. "I needed to talk it out with someone." Vanessa had stood from her chair and gestured for me to take her seat and went inside the RV, coming back out with some more beers. She passed them around and then sat on my lap similar to the way Ivy was with Erica. We sat that way for a while talking as the night sky played out above us. I'd always loved looking up at the sky out on the property, away from any major sources of light pollution. Now spotlights were lighting up the construction area a hundred yards away, where men and women were working through the night. The view was dimmed, and I wondered if it would ever be as clear again as it had been a month ago. Dani slipped off to bed first, and Vanessa grumbled that she had to be up in the morning for work so the rest of us went quickly. We never had discussed the sleeping arrangements, so I ended up sleeping next to Kyla, with Erica pressing her back to my side and holding my arm under her and around her stomach, with Vanessa spooning up to her and Ivy on the end on her back, snuggled partially under Vanessa. I knocked on the door and set the two big brown paper bags down on the stoop and backed away. The house wasn't 'old' per se, located in a neighborhood that had been developed almost twenty-five years ago, and hadn't been updated since it was first built. To be fair, there hadn't ever exactly been a housing boom in the area, so other than the one-off builds it was probably one of the newest places around. The inner front door opened and Mary looked out cautiously, then in surprise as she saw me. She hadn't texted me like I'd asked her to, and it had almost been a week since I'd seen her in the parking lot at the grocery store. She looked a little better, though not by much, and I wondered how far she'd been able to stretch that $70 I'd been able to give her then. "Harri?" she asked in surprise. "Hey, Mary," I said with a little wave. "How did you; Is this;?" "It wasn't that hard, Mary," I said. "I just made a couple of calls. You never texted me." "I know, I,” she hesitated, and then hung her head. "I was so embarrassed." "You don't need to be," I told her. "You're in a tough spot, and I'm not. I want to help out." "Mom? Who's at the door?" came a little voice from inside. A boy poked his head around Mary's hip, looking cute and curious. "It's an old friend of Mommies," Mary said. "He's just here to say hello." "Hey there buddy," I said, smiling as I pulled my mask down and waved, then let the mask snap back up and played like it had rocked me. The kid giggled. "My name is Harrison, but everyone calls me Harri on account of my big beard and hair." "That's a funny name," the kid said. "If you got rid of your beard, what would they call you?" "Hmm, that's a good question!" I said. "I don't know. Maybe you should ask your Mom, she knew me when I didn't have a beard." "We still called him Harri, baby," Mary said, smiling down at the boy and running her fingers through his hair. The kid had keen eyes and noticed the bags on the stoop and the food inside. "Is that for us?" "It is, kiddo," I said. "Could you help your Mom get it inside?" "Sure!" he said. Mary sighed and opened the screen door for him, and the kid came out in his socks and hefted up one of the bags and started carrying it in. "Harri, you don't need to,” "I made sure there are some snacks for the kids in there," I said, pretending like she hadn't been talking. "I know they aren't nutritious, but I figured you can bribe some good behavior for some Oreos and stuff every once in a while. There's also a bottle of merlot in that other one there, so you may not want the kiddo to lift it. He's a cute kid, by the way. I've got an order in down at the butcher's that I'm supposed to pick up tomorrow, so I'll be by sometime tomorrow afternoon with some meat for you guys too. Maybe I can meet your little girl then? Charlie, right?" Mary looked like she was about to cry, and I didn't want to push her over the edge so I tried to make it all like it wasn't a big deal. "Alright, Mary. See you tomorrow. Let me know if you need anything specific and I'll see what I can do, alright? Tell the kiddo not to eat all the gummy worms at once." I was halfway down the driveway to my truck when the screen door opened again. "Harri," Mary called. I looked back and she was standing on the porch, looking at me with tears brimming in her eyes and a happy frown on her face. From this distance, without a mask, I could still see her as the little button-nosed cheerleader I'd known. "Thank you." I just winked and waved, heading back to my truck. "That was really kind of you," Kyla said as I got in. "It's nothing," I said. "I knew her in high school and her husband's been missing for a while." Kyla took one of my hands from the steering wheel and wrapped her fingers in mine, looking at it. The casual intimacy was still new; the first couple days after her imprinting had been us feeling each other out, and her getting comfortable with the general openness to sex that was our new life. I'd made it a point to spend time with her, both sexually and non-sexually, each day and we were slowly starting to find a soft groove. "That's still kindness, Harri," she said. "You're sure she needs it? I don't want to see you getting taken advantage of." "I'm sure," I said. "Okay," Kyla nodded. "Then we'll help her. Now, let's continue this tour. I want to know everything I can about this little podunk, backwoods town I've been shipped off to." "Well, the first thing you should know is that I'm pretty sure it isn't big enough to be considered a town. Maybe a village?" "Oh, God," she laughed. "Not if you consider all the construction workers moving in." "True. I bet we're close to half-againing the local population at this point. Vanessa said we'll hit a thousand by the end of the week." "With that many," Kyla said. "We should have our house in, what, a few months?" "No idea," I said. "No fucking idea." "Fuck, it's already June," I groaned. It was hot as balls and I was regretting putting on my 'go out into the world' getup. "How did you miss the 1st?" Erica asked, also done up in her gear. "How did we miss Memorial Day?" I countered. "Oh, shit," Leo said, standing up from where he'd been sitting over near his RV. "You're right, we did miss Memorial Day. Should we do something?" "Like what?" I asked. "We could throw a party," Ivy suggested. "We could all dress up fancy and have a dance?" The surveyors had been needing Leo and me less and less lately and I was starting to get a little twitchy with how little I had to do. Quarantine before all of this really kicked off had been one thing, but now we didn't even have our big wide backyard to ourselves. When Erica had mentioned that she wanted to take a drive into Portland to pick up some things from the tattoo parlor and check her apartment I'd jumped on the chance and we'd made the plan. The girls were already starting to excitedly talk about planning our late Memorial Day celebration as I stretched and sighed, checking my watch. We'd been planning to leave right after lunch and it was already 3pm. Vanessa had taken an extended break since she'd worked late the night before and we'd had some one-on-one fun in the RV, which had been sorely needed for her. Where the rest of us were struggling to find things to keep busy and motivated, the last week had seen more and more responsibility and work landing in Vanessa's lap as the construction crews started to show up and move into the barracks. It meant there was an entirely new crew of cleaners, maintenance workers and delivery people under her supervision along with her 'gorillas.' Not to mention her wrangling of the other foremen and administrators on-site as her father handled the top-end details of the job. Every day it seemed like new equipment and supplies were being delivered and a third barracks was quickly being erected as even more hands were around. But an hour with Vanessa had delayed us, and when I was finally ready to go Dani was busy with Leo over at their place, and since she was coming with us Erica and I had to wait. Then Erica and Kyla were ensconced in a private conversation in our RV when Dani emerged ready to go, so we lost another half hour before the three of us were all finally dressed and prepped to leave. "Okay," I said loudly, trying to cut through the multiple party-related conversations. "We're all agreed we'll do a Memorial Day thing, but we're burning daylight. Erica and Dani, let's go." We took my truck, only needing one vehicle since we weren't hauling a ton of stuff like the last time. As we pulled around the site offices I spotted Vanessa walking with one of the other foremen in conversation and gave her a little double honk. She smiled and waved. Driving down the old driveway path there were now a half dozen wide offshoots winding off into the trees and closer to the highway there were big swathes of ground that had been cleared and were starting to get flattened by scrapers and excavators. Vanessa had mentioned that we'd end up with a couple of strip malls worth of stores to help provide for the eventual community; a convenience store, a clinic, a dentist, that sort of thing. Right at the end of the driveway a guard hut had been erected, little more than a fancy roadside fruit stall that could barely fit two people inside. I pulled up next to it and Erica rolled down the window. "Hey Patrick," I said, waving to the construction worker manning the booth and tracking the ins and outs. "Hey folks," the older guy said with a grin. He was supposed to be on the road crews but had arrived earlier than needed. I'd asked him once if standing in the guard booth all day working a clipboard was boring and he assured me that after three decades manning a 'Slow/Stop' sign in the middle of roads through sun, rain and sleet, the booth and the clipboard were welcome. "We'll be out for a few hours," I said. "Sounds good," he replied and made a note on his clipboard. Then he wiped at his eyes and cleared his throat, blinking. "Y'all didn't say anything about how bad the pollen got up here. I think my allergies are kicking up and I didn't bring any of my meds, I thought the North West was supposed to be wet." "It usually is. We'll pick you something up," Erica offered. "We need to stop at a pharmacy anyways." "We do?" I asked. "We do," Erica said, patting me on the knee. "Hah," Patrick laughed. "And here I thought you was some sort of Big Dog, Harri. But you're as whipped by your women as the rest of us." "See you in a bit, Patrick," I said. He waved us off, then covered his mouth to cough a little. "Poor guy," Dani said. "I'd hate if I had allergies like that." "We'll get him fixed up," I said as I pulled onto the highway and started heading in the direction of Portland. "It's been weirdly dry and hot so I'm betting the dust from the brush cutting is doing it to him." And I didn't think anything more of it. Erica unlocked the metal grate that pulled down over the front of the tattoo parlor and lifted it up on the rollers enough to uncover the door. The good news was that the whole thing with the 'Autonomous Zone' seemed to have burned itself out and Portland was no longer hosting big protests at the moment. The bad news was that only happened after a week of riots and several news-worthy moments of violence and vandalism. Thankfully the parlor wasn't on one of the major routes the riots had travelled down and there didn't seem to be any damage other than sprayed graffiti on the grate and some of the glass windows behind it. I'd pulled my truck right up over the curb and parked us as close as possible. The streets were as empty of people moving around as the last time we'd come into the city, except there was more trash. I'd seen old newsreels of when there had been major strikes in New York City back in the early 80s and it wasn't exactly that bad, but another couple of weeks and it might get there. Someone must have been doing collections, they were just overburdened or understaffed or something. I had to nudge a pile out of the way with the front of my truck to wedge into the open space, but it almost immediately proved worth it as a trio of ambulances came burning down the street with their lights running. If I'd parked on the street one of them would have needed to swerve out of the way and who knew if those extra seconds would be the difference between life or death for someone; not to mention the potential of the ambulance not swerving fast enough and clipping my truck. Inside the tattoo parlor Erica went straight to her bay and started unhooking and gathering her equipment. Dani was looking around at the place, grinning as she examined the wild decor. She would call out questions to Erica, who would tell her who had done what mural, or the brief story behind the broken surfboard hanging from the ceiling and the skateboard deck covered in almost a hundred different signatures. I spotted a photo on the wall and realized it was of Erica and all of her staff at the most recent DragonCon where they had put up a booth and done live tattooing. Erica had said beforehand she thought it might be a waste of time, but the owner of the parlor was a huge nerd and wanted to do it so it was her job to organize. I never had found out how it went, but she looked happy in the photo. I grabbed the frame from the wall and brought it over to her. "Do you want to bring this, too?" I asked. She glanced at it and paused her work, then smiled and hugged me. "That's sweet, Harri. Yes, absolutely." She took the frame and put it in one of the boxes we'd brought for her to carry stuff, then turned to me. "Hey, could you just empty all those drawers there into the boxes? Don't just dump them, but there isn't anything particularly fragile. It's mostly inks and cleaner solutions and stuff." "Sure," I said. "Thanks, babe," she said and kissed my cheek. "Dani and I are just going to slip through to next door." "Oh, God," I groaned. I hadn't realized that was her plan. "Don't worry," she grinned. "It'll all be fun for you, I promise." The owner of the tattoo parlor also owned the sex shop next door and had installed a door between the two since the clientele crossed over fairly consistently. Erica led Dani through the door, opening it with her key, and I could hear them laughing and giggling. By the time I was done with the drawers Erica had pointed out, placing what seemed like hundreds of little vials and bottles of inks and other liquids into the boxes along with some other art supplies, they hadn't come back. I went to the door and opened it, looking in. Erica glanced over, grinning as she held another box and Dani was placing something inside. "You want any porn, babe?" "What do I need porn for?" I asked. "I dunno," she said. "Variety?" "Ooh, this one is called 'Big Black Booties 15,'" Dani said, grabbing a DVD from a nearby shelf and waving it at me. "You don't have that kind of variety yet, Harri." I snorted and shook my head. "I'm perfectly happy with the booties at my disposal, thank you." Dani shrugged and put the DVD in the box. "I'll see if Leo wants it." "Gag!" Erica laughed, making them both start giggling. I had a feeling that was a running joke between them. "How are we paying for this stuff?" I asked. "Everything is turned off and we don't have any cash." "Artie told me I could Venmo him at a 75% discount," Erica said. "Plus anything with an expiry date I could have for free. So we've got a lot of lube now, along with a bunch of penis-shaped candy and some candy underwear." I sighed and shook my head. "Oh my God, we should take her with us," Dani said, pointing up on a high shelf where a creepily lifelike sex doll was sitting. "I think you mean rescue her," Erica said. "Harri, help me get her down." "Really?" I asked. "Yes," they both demanded. When we packed up the truck we had two boxes of Erica's tattoo gear and other possessions from the shop, another full box of Sex Shop stuff, and Dani was sitting in the back next to 'Sexy Susan' who had also happened to get dressed in a sexy nurse costume. They thought it was fucking hilarious, I just thought 'Sexy Susan' was a little creepy. Dani stayed down in the truck, taking the front seat as I pointed out that the 1911 was in its case under the passenger seat if she needed it, while Erica and I headed up to her apartment. The elevator had an 'out of order' sign on it, and Erica had to use her key to the building to get into the stairwell which she said she'd never had to do before. That was an immediate red flag to me, but I kept my cool to try and not worry her. "You know," Erica said as we climbed the stairs. All our sex cardio seemed to be paying off because we weren't puffing from the exertion yet. "You haven't officially asked me to move in yet." "What?' I asked. "Leo and I,” "That wasn't asking me to move in permanently," Erica cut me off. "That was just for quarantine." I rolled my eyes, knowing where she was going with this. At the next floor I grabbed her by the waist and pulled her to me, pulling down my mask and hers and kissing her hard and deep. "Erica Lacosta, will you move in with me forever and ever?" I asked her. "Yes," she grinned. "Yes, I will." She kissed me lightly to seal it, then sighed and we raised our masks and started climbing more stairs. "With that out of the way, I should really try and find a way out of my lease. Just because you have money doesn't mean I should be wasting mine on a place I'm not ever planning on moving back into." "I'll help with some research," I said. "I know there's all the clamor about halting eviction notices, but maybe there's something that will help. I could text Miriam, see if Captain Bloomberg knows anything offhand." "Hmm, maybe,” Erica started, but stopped as we reached her floor and found that door locked as well. "What the fuck?" she sighed and unlocked it. "Let me go first," I said. "Why? It's just..." As we entered the corridor Erica trailed off, seeing the tracks of dirty footprints in the hall and the spray paint on the walls. She immediately started to move forward, but I grabbed her arm and stopped her. "Wait," I said. "Look." I pointed at the big circles on the walls next to each door, but she clearly didn't understand what I was pointing out. "Those are FEMA search and rescue marks." Erica blinked once and was obviously unsure of what to say. "Let's just take it slow," I said. We walked down the hallway. Some of the doors were shut, but others looked like they'd been kicked in. "What do they mean?" Erica asked me, looking at the circles and the scribbles of letters and numbers on the walls. Each circle had an X dividing it into four parts, and each quadrant was marked. "The top part is the date the location was searched," I said. "5-24 means it happened May 24th, so a little over a week and a half ago. The left side is who did the search, the numbers are probably a military code for a National Guard unit. If it said PPD that would be the Portland police, or CDC or DEA or whoever. The right side is if there are any hazards." I pointed to one of the doors that were kicked in. "NE means 'No Entry.'" Then I pointed to another. "F/W means there's contaminated food and water." I pointed at another door, this one wasn't kicked in. "A 0 means no hazards. "What are the bottom parts?" Erica asked. I frowned and swallowed. "The crossed 0 means no one found. DB or DOA means dead bodies. LB means live people are, or were, inside." Erica looked at the carnage of the corridor, her eyes scanning the doors of her neighbors as she weighed the number of DBs. There weren't many 0s, but about half of the apartments were labelled LB and hadn't been kicked open. Half. We got to Erica's place around the hall corner, passing the old lady Diane's door. It was kicked in and labelled NE, DB. Erica poked the door with her boot and it swung in. Inside, other than the dirty boot prints, it looked generally neat and tidy... other than the pool of dark something that had dried on the kitchen linoleum. I grabbed Erica and held her as she gasped and her knees went weak. I pulled her away from the door and she saw that her own apartment had also been kicked in, but was labelled 0 hazards and 0 bodies. We went in and she sat down on the couch, burying her head in her hands. Kneeling in front of her, I cradled her head on my shoulder and hugged her tightly as the reality of the world settled on her. She cried, though not as long as she probably needed, as I talked her through what had probably happened. Enough people had gotten sick and called emergency services that they came to do a sweep of the building. They knocked on every door, and anywhere someone didn't answer they kicked it in. Then I assumed they had extracted the bodies. "I need to get out of here," Erica breathed. "Okay," I said. "Do you need me to grab anything? Did we forget anything last time?" "No, nothing," she shook her head. "Just get me out of here." I picked her up and carried her out. Erica wasn't Ivy or Vanessa, or even Kyla. She was a full-figured woman. But I carried her every fucking step, down every stair. She stopped me right at the doors to the building and had me let her down. "I don't want Dani to see me like this," she said. "Why?" I asked. "She would understand." "I know," she said, blinking under her ski goggles. "But if she sees me like this, she'll start thinking about what might be happening back home for her, and she doesn't need that." I held Erica's hand at the door for another minute as she breathed deeply and got control of herself, and finally she smiled at me and it actually travelled up to her eyes. "Thanks, babe," she said. "Love you," I said. "You too," she said and touched her forehead to mine since we were both masked and goggled. "Hey, Charlie," I grinned, waving to the little four-year-old as she sprawled in Mary's arms and waved back with her little grin. "Hi," she chirped. "Okay," Mary said, setting her daughter down. "Scoot, you. Let Mommy talk with Harri for a second. Go see what your brother is doing." "Okay," Charlie said and pounded off in the way only a four-year-old could. "You're looking more like yourself, Mary," I said. I was standing off the porch and we kept the screen door closed, but I had my mask lowered so she could see my face. She smiled softly and shrugged. "I don't feel like it, but thanks." "How are the kids doing?" I asked. "Well, I regret letting them eat sugar again," she smirked a little. "But they're good. Better than me, anyways, though Thomas misses his friends from school and keeps asking when he can go back to class." She laughed and wiped under one eye. "He used to hate going to school every morning, now it's all he wants to do." "We'll get there eventually," I assured her. "What about you? How are you doing?"

The summer, some of the biggest food companies in America have announced that they plan to stop using artificial food dyes. It's a move that would transform the look of some of the best known brands.Julie Creswell, who covers the food industry, explains how the health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., got the food industry to commit to a change that it has resisted for years — and that could be bad for business.Guest: Julie Creswell, a business reporter covering the food industry for The New York Times.Background reading: How might Jell-O look and taste when artificial dyes are removed?Mr. Kennedy's battle against food dyes hit a roadblock: M&M's.For more information on today's episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Photo: Joe Raedle/Getty Images Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

In this episode of 'Don't Cut Your Own Bangs,' host Danielle Ireland introduces John Kippen, a resilience and empowerment coach, magician, and motivational speaker. John shares his incredible journey of overcoming a life-threatening brain tumor and how it transformed his life and career.  Throughout the episode, John discusses his healing journey, the power of vulnerability, and the importance of facing one's limiting beliefs. He also reveals the origins of his unique phrase 'impossible really means I am possible' and offers a special gift to listeners. Tune in to uncover valuable wisdom nuggets and be inspired by John's story of triumph over adversity.   00:00 Introduction to the Episode 00:40 Meet John Kippen: A Multihyphenate Talent 01:23 John's Life-Altering Diagnosis 05:46 The Surgery and Its Aftermath 08:04 The Road to Recovery 13:30 Embracing the New Normal 17:29 The Power of Truth and Magic 29:14 The Power of Magic and Connection 29:31 Introducing Treasured: A Journal for Self-Discovery 30:44 The Magic of Personal Connection 32:59 Overcoming Personal Struggles Through Magic 34:38 The Journey to Self-Acceptance 35:42 The Importance of Asking and Vulnerability 50:24 The TED Talk Experience 54:34 Final Thoughts and Encouragement   RATE, REVIEW, SUBSCRIBE TO “DON'T CUT YOUR OWN BANGS”  Like your favorite recipe or song, the best things in life are shared. When you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast, your engagement helps me connect  with other listeners just like you. Plus, subscriptions just make life easier for everybody. It's one less thing for you to think about and you can easily keep up to date on everything that's new. So, please rate, review, and subscribe today.    DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW I greatly appreciate your support and engagement as part of the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs community. Feel free to reach out with questions, comments, or anything you'd like to share. You can connect with me at any of the links below.   JOHN KIPPEN: https://www.ted.com/talks/john_kippen_being_different_is_my_super_power_magic_saved_my_life   https://www.johnkippen.com   DANIELLE IRELAND, LCSW Website: https://danielleireland.com/ The Treasured Journal: https://danielleireland.com/journal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielleireland_lcsw TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dontcutyourownbangspod?_t=ZP-8yFHmVNPKtq&_r=1 Transcript:   John Kippen Edited Interview [00:00:00] [00:00:07] Hello. Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are catching an episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. And today I have the great pleasure of introducing you to someone I can now call a new friend John Kippen. John is a multihyphenate. He has had quite a life and he's an excellent storyteller. So this episode you're gonna wanna buckle up. [00:00:31] It is so good. Get those AirPods in, go on your walk, get safely in your car, get ready to listen because this is just an absolutely beautiful episode. But let me tell you a little bit about John. John is a resilience and empowerment coach. He was and is the CEO of a very successful IT company. [00:00:49] He was a main stage performer at the Magic Castle in Los Angeles, so if that just gives you a little insight, is the level of his magic. He is a motivational speaker. He's a life coach, and. He has a TED talk that has received over a million views. And the heartbeat of this TED talk is how he triumphs over tragedy with a diagnosis of a tumor the size of a golf ball that is separating his brainstem and the procedure he needed to save his life, changed his life forever. [00:01:23] Doing the work of healing does not come easily to anyone, but as John so beautifully puts in this episode, if John can do it, you can do it. He's using his stories, his vulnerable and raw experiences, and talking about not only what happened to him, but how he moved through the impossible. [00:01:45] He actually coins a phrase that I love and I'm going to keep. Which is that impossible really means I am possible. So the ultimate magic trick, the ultimate illusion is what your limiting beliefs are about yourself, and how do you use facing those fears and those limiting beliefs to transform your life. [00:02:08] And in John's case, he takes that healing and offers it as a gift to us. As listeners to his clients and his coaching practice to the readers of his book, he has authored a book The Forward by None other than the Jamie Lee Curtis from all of the places. You know her most recently. The Bear where she won an Emmy, but everything everywhere, all at once. [00:02:32] She and John are buds, and she believes in him and believes in his work, and as a champion of that work, it just adds a little extra sparkle and fairy dust to the beautiful work that he's already doing to say that he's been vetted by someone who is so sparkly and magnetic and also deeply entrenched in holding space for the truth and honoring the truth. [00:02:52] This is a heartfelt episode, so what I would recommend. If you're in a place to do so is you might wanna jot some notes down because John drops some beautiful wisdom nuggets in this episode. And the book that he authored is playing The Hand You're Dealt. And what I wanna share too, we talk about it in the episode, but I wanna highlight this 'cause it's really important. [00:03:12] John is giving everyone who listens to the episode a free gift, but it is not linked in the show notes. It is only available to those of you who listen. It's a special little surprise embedded in the episode that you have to listen to find, but it is a free gift from him to you. So without further ado, get ready to sit back, relax, and enjoy the beautiful wisdom of John Kippen. [00:03:35] ​ [00:03:36] Kippen, multihyphenate resilience and empowerment, coach magician, keynote speaker, author, and all around. Nice guy. Thank you for joining me today on the Don't Cut Your Own Bangs podcast. [00:03:47] Danielle: Hollywood legend wrote the forward of his beautiful book, playing the Hand You're Dealt Forward by the one and Only Take It Away, John, Jamie [00:03:58] John: Lee Curtis. [00:03:59] Danielle: Jamie Lee Curtis. Yes. So you have to stay and listen to the entire episode because he's going to tease out a special little giveaway that will only be revealed in the audio. [00:04:10] So you gotta listen. It's not gonna be linked in the show notes, folks. So buckle up, sit down. This is gonna be a great episode with a fun gift for you, a special little dose of magic hidden inside. So, John, you, I mean, all the different fun things that we listed about what you do. You're a magician, you're a motivational speaker, you're a coach. [00:04:30] What I know doing the work I do as a therapist is the skills and trade that you're building your life on. Those were skills that they were. Hard one, like nobody chooses, in my opinion and in my experience, no one chooses to go into a helping profession that hasn't needed help in their life. It's like the, our healing becomes our medicine. [00:04:54] And I really wanna learn about not just what you offer, but your healing journey that put you in the unique position you're in to do the work you do. So, welcome and I'd love to hear from you. [00:05:05] John: So just quickly, the Reader's Digest version of my backstory. Grew up Los Angeles, middle class family, two great parents loving, no sisters or brothers, had everything I needed. [00:05:18] They sent me to a nice school and, I got into theater, started doing theater, in college. I studied theater and became the big man on campus because pretty much I grabbed every opportunity that presented itself. Started a computer company out of college. 'cause I'm a creative problem solver. [00:05:38] That's the thread that goes through everything I do in my life. [00:05:42] Mm-hmm. [00:05:42] John: I look at a problem, I say, how am I gonna solve that? [00:05:45] Mm-hmm. [00:05:46] John: And then in June of July of 2002, I was diagnosed with a four half centimeter brain tumor called an acoustic neuroma. [00:05:55] Danielle: Yes. And this was, so it was slowly severing your brainstem? Correct. [00:05:59] John: It was displacing the brainstem. Causing not only hearing issues, but dizziness upon standing or walking. [00:06:07] Mm-hmm. [00:06:08] John: I had to have something done with it. I would not have survived. [00:06:12] Mm-hmm. [00:06:14] John: And. It was a whirlwind , I went and saw the doctor who finally diagnosed it after seeing him the MRI films, and he, he had no bedside manner. [00:06:25] I remember sitting on the examining room table, right. And the, the tissue paper is crinkling under my butt. Mm-hmm. I could feel the, I could sense the temperature. I'm heightened sensitivity. [00:06:37] And he looks up at the MRI after talking to a neurosurgeon, and he turns around and says, John, you have a four and a half centimeter brain tumor. [00:06:46] It's killing you. We're operating you on Friday. You're gonna go deaf in your left ear, and there's a possibility for some facial weakness. We're gonna do everything we can to prevent that. And he left [00:07:01] Danielle: the room. So he knew, and in his own. Brash in abrupt way, essentially prepared you for the outcome and challenges that would come assuming the surgery was a success? [00:07:17] John: Yeah. He is a world renowned acoustic neuroma surgeon. He's one of the guys you go to, when you have this kind of tumor and that's all he does. Wow. But he literally left the room and I'm sitting there and I didn't bring anybody in and [00:07:31] yeah. [00:07:32] John: A tip to anyone who's potentially going in for a serious diagnosis. [00:07:36] Yeah. [00:07:37] John: Bring a friend or a family member. [00:07:39] Because it goes in one ear and out the other, you're in shock. Right. Right. When you get home and you say, wait a minute, he said that surgery gonna be four hours or 14 hours or 20. How, how long ago and you have all these questions. Yeah. And you know, getting ahold of the doctor to ask them again is just not the way our medical system works. [00:08:01] He's back to back, to back to back patients. [00:08:04] So, I checked in the night before, they did blood tests and I tried to get an hour or two sleep, 6:00 AM my clockwork the orderly came in and said, okay, get naked, get on this cold gurney. What a sheet over you and we're going take you to the operating room. [00:08:21] Danielle: I wanna pause your story for a moment. 'cause there's a couple things that I, I wanna tease out a little. So one is you, the way that you tell your story, so well probably because you've told it on stages, you've shared it with others, you've written about it. There is something about a trauma. [00:08:37] That really marks the sort of BCAD of life. And the way you shared, I felt like I was in the room with you when you were getting this bomb of news dropped on you so you were theater trained, theater kid, a creative person, a creative problem solver, and a business owner. [00:08:57] Like I, I think about that often when people are experiencing trauma. What, what was life sort of the, the illusion of normalcy. The, the, you know, the predictability of this is my life and this is my to-do list and this is my calendar. So before that moment, you were just a guy on the west coast running a business. [00:09:17] Is that right? [00:09:18] John: Very successful business. [00:09:19] Danielle: And I, I just wanna share briefly too, I haven't met too many other only children. Theater background 'cause that's me too. [00:09:30] John: Oh, really? [00:09:31] Danielle: I'm an only child and I was a theater major and started acting when I was 13, so before. But, the creative problem solver, God, my theater background has paid dividends in ways I didn't know at the time. [00:09:42] I didn't know that when I was preparing for this interview, but now that you've said that, it's like that thing that I couldn't put my finger on has clicked into place. [00:09:49] John: I love doing improv. [00:09:51] Improv is the, you know, everybody talks about being in the moment. [00:09:57] Yeah. [00:09:57] John: What does that really mean, being in the moment? [00:10:00] When you do improv, you have to be in the moment. Otherwise you fall flat. And everybody, you're doing improv looks at you going. Well, it's your turn. [00:10:10] Danielle: You've tapped in. Now you've gotta say something. How are you gonna move the story forward? [00:10:14] Exactly. I feel most alive when I'm engaged in moments like that. And I, it's, I'm not a, a adrenaline junkie, but I would say that's my high, it's the, rush of connecting with somebody like that. So you were running a very successful business. This bomb has dropped. [00:10:32] You can barely remember what you were told and what your life is likely going to be. Assuming everything goes well, what is going to happen when you wake up off your op? And how long was your operation? [00:10:46] John: 15 hours. [00:10:48] Danielle: And the surgery was a success. They were able to remove the golf ice tumor. [00:10:52] Yeah. So they removed the fall sized tumor. [00:10:54] John: I didn't have time to think, you know, I got one of my guys who worked for me told him that he was gonna be running the company for a month or two. He agreed. [00:11:05] Mm-hmm. [00:11:05] John: Had to shovel up some more money to get him to do it, but, you know, it is what it is. You do what you have to do. [00:11:11] Yeah. And then,, I just tried to think positively, hope for the best. Plan for the worst. You know, I had someone gonna stay with me the first week, make food because I just wanted to recover and I didn't know what it was gonna be like. [00:11:27] Danielle: Yeah. You're like, I just need a week to recover, and then I'm just gonna hop back into life, hopefully. [00:11:31] John: Rolling the gurney into the surgical, prep area. [00:11:35] The nurse saying, Hey John, you know, we know we have to shape after your head. You want me to do it now or after you're under. [00:11:42] Danielle: So you didn't even know that they were gonna shave your head. Well, I didn't think about it. [00:11:48] John: I mean, if I had thought about it, I got a shaved part of my head. [00:11:51] Danielle: Right. [00:11:52] John: I said to her, please. [00:11:56] Danielle: Yeah. [00:11:58] John: And so, they roll me into the operating room. You got these really bright lights, , blinding you, and you're laying there and they're like, okay, you're gonna count back toward five. [00:12:09] The next thing I know, I hear faint voices and it was like I was 30 meters deep in a pool. Struggling to get to the surface. And I remember this like it was yesterday, literally trying to swim to the service to regain consciousness. [00:12:26] And finally when I got enough, I realized that my dad was sitting on the edge of my bed holding my hand, [00:12:34] and [00:12:34] John: he was smiling at me, but I didn't see my mom. [00:12:40] So I asked my dad for my glasses and he handed me the glasses. And I remember trying to put the, and then I realized my head's bandage. [00:12:48] Danielle: Oh, right. [00:12:50] John: So I had to figure out how to get the glasses in Cockeye to get 'em on my face, right? [00:12:55] And the look on her face was one of horror. What did these butchers do to my son's face? And at that point, I didn't know my face was paralyzed. Because I have full feeling, I just can't move it. [00:13:10] Danielle: So you currently, you still have full feeling in your face. You just lost mobility, [00:13:14] John: so I didn't really understand what that look was. [00:13:18] Danielle: Right. How could you? [00:13:19] John: And then my mom handed me her compact makeup. [00:13:22] And I opened it up and I'm like, holy crap. And then, I'm still getting [00:13:30] accustomed to, the one thing I noticed is leading into surgery, I was constantly dizzy and that dizziness was gone. [00:13:38] Danielle: Wow. [00:13:39] John: And that was like, oh my God, what a relief. [00:13:42] Mm-hmm. [00:13:43] John: So the doctor finally made his way in and I was like, so when's my face gonna move? And he said, John, we were, successful. [00:13:50] The tumors removed. Right when we were close the incision, your face stopped moving. But we think it's just to do the swelling, and once the swelling goes down, your face should start moving again. So I'm like, okay. I can handle that. That's a, it's not a permanent thing. I can deal with it. [00:14:05] So I'm in the hospital a week and, they're like, when you can do three laps around the hospital floor, without a walker, we'll send you home. [00:14:16] So that became my goal. I remember getting outta bed and then they said, no, no, no. Wait for the, I said, no. The doctor said that I need to rock three laps around. [00:14:26] I want to get the hell out of here [00:14:28] Five days I got home. My dad drove me home and I sat on my couch and now I'm like, okay, I can start healing and check email here and there. And I was taking lots of naps. And then I coughed and I touched the back of my neck and it was wet. [00:14:45] Mm. [00:14:47] John: Oh, it was a spinal fluid leak on the base of the incision. [00:14:51] Whew. [00:14:53] John: So immediately I called the doctor's office and the said, oh, get your ass back here. And I went back to the hospital three times with them to redo the bandaging to try to prevent the leak. [00:15:05] Danielle: Wait, you call the hospital. Hey, their spinal fluid leaking out of my surgical incision. And they're like, yeah, you should get in a car and drive yourself to the hospital. [00:15:16] John: They didn't say how I should get to the hospital. [00:15:19] Danielle: Okay. Fair, fair. But that, [00:15:22] okay. Wow. ' [00:15:24] John: cause that's not good. [00:15:25] And there was potential for getting, spinal meningitis in that. From what I understand is one of the most extreme pains out there. [00:15:35] Okay. [00:15:35] John: I went back and forth three different times over that week. [00:15:39] They tried to, it was just as right behind my ear, right at the base of the incision. So, there was no way that they were going to be able to, put a pressure manage to keep that and so it could start healing. [00:15:51] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:15:52] John: So they finally said, all right, tomorrow you're gonna come in and we're gonna, redo the incision and pull more belly fat outta your belly to fill the hole. [00:16:01] And Yeah. This time they used staples, man, thick Frankenstein. [00:16:07] All the way up. [00:16:08] But then I'm like, I was only in the hospital for a day. And then, and I'm like, okay, I can relax. I remember getting up and brushing my teeth, you know, and I'm looking at the mirror and God, , I don't recognize that guy. [00:16:24] Yeah. And I got rid of all the mirrors in my house. [00:16:30] I didn't want a constant reminder. [00:16:33] My face was screwed up. [00:16:34] Danielle: I, there's so much specificity to what is uniquely your story. [00:16:46] Mm-hmm. [00:16:47] Danielle: But what I have found is when people. Are able to share elements of their experience. It's when you go into the specificity of what you experienced. I can see myself in so many elements of your story in my own, like when we get in deeper, it becomes somehow more accessible and universal. [00:17:16] And in that way, you're not alone, even though it happened to you and that detail about your removing the mirrors from your home. It, it brings me to something I really wanted to ask you about. You share by saying, and then also , by, actually demonstrating in your TED talk that, once you began the healing process of really addressing your depression after your operation, that, the story, it led you to magic, literally. And I also think in a more magical way, beyond performing an illusion. And I know not to call it a trick, I learned that from arrested development. [00:18:03] But, there's something you said that I wanted to quote that it's amazing how accepting kids are of the truth. You open up your TED talk, which I will link in the show notes so people can see. But that you mentioned that this in a way that your permission and your humor and your honesty, it created levity and lightness. [00:18:27] For something that would be considered maybe so precious and heavy. And what I wanna speak to, and open up a question if that's okay, is, I'm curious what your relationship with the truth is because I think humor in its highest expression is allowing us to laugh at something that we see the truth in. [00:18:49] And yet it's this razor's edge between laughing at someone or laughing at something versus inviting us to laugh at the, the human experience that we maybe don't know how to name or express in another way. But I wanna know personally for you, what your relationship is with the truth and the value of embracing it. [00:19:13] And then in your line of work as a coach, where do you see people struggle with it? [00:19:19] John: Truth is an illusion. [00:19:21] Danielle: Ooh, tell me more. That just, that was a zingy response that you popped right out. Please tell me more. [00:19:28] John: Yeah. Truth. Everybody has their own truth. [00:19:31] Danielle: Oh, well there you go. [00:19:32] John: Their own perspective, [00:19:34] Danielle: uhhuh, [00:19:35] John: And the truth is formed out of your limiting beliefs. [00:19:41] Danielle: So the truth is formed out of your limited beliefs, [00:19:44] John: your limiting beliefs. [00:19:45] Danielle: Limiting beliefs. Okay. [00:19:47] John: Yeah. [00:19:48] I just wanted to take a slight step back. [00:19:50] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:19:51] John: I told you this was gonna be the Reader's Digest version. [00:19:54] Danielle: Yes. [00:19:54] John: But it took me 12 years [00:19:57] To come out of that hiding. Wow. 12 years. [00:20:02] Danielle: How old were you when you had your operation? [00:20:05] John: 33. [00:20:06] Danielle: 33. Okay. [00:20:08] John: And fortunately for me, I could work from home. But I miss so many celebrations with friends and family. 'cause I just didn't want to have to explain it. I didn't want to have to deal with the looks, , and I tell this story on my TED Talk and in my book. You know, at a restaurant I wanted to get a burger at Tony Aroma's. And I'm sitting there by myself and in a booth, and there's a booth right in front of me and there's a family with a kid, two parents and a kid. And the kid's squirming and gets up and turns around and is now on his knees on the bench and looking at me. [00:20:44] And he gets up and he comes over and he says, Mr, what's wrong with your face? And in that moment, I didn't want to have a five or 6-year-old come over and Right. And I'm like, okay, I had the strength to come out and go to a restaurant. I have to deal with this. So I started talking to this little boy [00:21:06] Danielle: Mm. [00:21:07] John: And saying, I had a medical procedure that caused me not to with my face before I could continue his mom grabbing him [00:21:16] mm-hmm. [00:21:17] John: The arm and drug him back and said, don't bother him. The nice man, he has enough troubles already. And I couldn't leave it there. [00:21:25] Mm-hmm. [00:21:27] John: So I had to go to the little boy and I knelt down and I got eye level and I said, I love my new face because it's different. [00:21:34] It's different just like yours. And I remember it like it was yesterday, he took his fingers and he tried to distort his face to be crooked like mine. And he turned to his mom and said, look, mom, I could do that too. And then he went back to eating his meal. His question was answered. [00:21:56] He had no judgment. And his parents were like, holy crap, did we just learn a lesson? How to raise our child? [00:22:03] They whispered, thank you on their way out. [00:22:07] Danielle: But there is something I, there, there's something to that woman's response to you that really resonated with me. [00:22:14] And it also, highlights the point you made so well about the, essentially the truth being relative. Because she projected onto you what her perception of your life was. Don't bother the nice man one, she didn't know you were nice, though. You are. But she didn't know that. Right. And she also didn't know what your troubles were or weren't, and she assumed that. [00:22:39] John: But I always wonder what her motives were. [00:22:41] Danielle: Right. [00:22:42] John: was it to make me comfortable or was it to make her and her son comfortable [00:22:48] Danielle: it for her? I think so. [00:22:50] John: And that's how I took it. [00:22:51] Danielle: I remember. So I have two children and I was pregnant once before and lost that pregnancy. [00:22:57] 12 weeks in. And I haven't thought about this in a very long time, but I remember going into, a annual doctor's appointment and she saw on the chart that I was listed as pregnant and clearly now was not. And it was in her own discomfort of not, she was asking me about the baby thinking, 'cause she was not my ob, GYN it was a different type of doctor. [00:23:20] And, she caught. Oh, and then I had sort of explained to her what that meant, and then she said, well, I'm sure, you blame yourself and I want you to know it's not your fault. Like she took her discomfort and tried to turn it into, she positioned herself above as someone who knew what he was experiencing and wanted to offer me this sympathy that was, one, she was wrong. [00:23:45] I totally misplaced. Yeah. I didn't blame myself. And it, that, that moment was such an extension of her own inability to hold the moment and the discomfort of the moment, and, tried to offer it up as a gift for me, which that's, yeah. [00:24:03] John: It's your perception of how you deal with that. [00:24:06] Danielle: Mm-hmm. [00:24:07] John: Losing a child can be. Empowering because you know that you can try again and get a child that is not gonna have any kind of defects and is gonna have a good life. And you know whether or not you believe in God or not. [00:24:24] Danielle: Yeah. [00:24:25] John: Things happen for a reason and we don't always understand the reason for them. [00:24:30] Danielle: I don't know if it, what the reason was, but I can say a gift from that was that somebody who lived with a very active monkey mind and a lot of head trash and some anxiety in the experience of the early grief, not for very long, but there was a moment in time where my mind was quiet, not numb, but quiet. [00:24:55] And it helped me realize, oh, there's the observer within me. Then there are the different conversations that are happening in my head that aren't me, which are maybe the perceptions that I call truth sometimes I wanna bring that same question of truth, which you had an answer I was not expecting, which I love when I never see it coming, so thank you. [00:25:18] Where do you see your clients? Because you're a coach, right? You are taking your healing and offering it as medicine to people that are trying to make a connection in their own life. So where do you see people that you work with? Struggle with the truth? [00:25:36] John: Everybody's hiding from someone something in their life. [00:25:40] They have buried something so deep and it keeps them from moving forward in their lives. 'cause it erodes their self-confidence. [00:25:50] That's what I learned through my love for performing magic. [00:25:58] Going to the magic castle, sitting at a table with a paralyzed face. [00:26:03] Yeah. I'm this overweight guy with balding, balding with a paralyzed face. And I could sit at a table and have people come to me. I tell this story sometimes, that the Magic Castle is a place where you have to get dressed up to the nines, you know? And women love to get dressed up [00:26:22] Danielle: That's true. [00:26:23] John: They're wearing their best outfits, right? And all of a sudden I'd have five or six women sitting at the table, and their reactions are very guarded. [00:26:34] Hmm. [00:26:36] John: You know, they're sitting there with their legs and arms crossed. [00:26:39] Hmm [00:26:40] John: they're leaning back. They have a smile that's just more of a grin. [00:26:45] Mm-hmm. ' [00:26:47] John: cause I don't know what I'm about. Sure. They don't know if I'm gonna be inappropriate, if I'm gonna come onto them, if I'm what it is. So they have no expectations other than they're gonna see some magic. [00:26:58] Mm-hmm. [00:26:59] John: So I start my act saying, hi guys. My name is John and I'm doing magic all my life. [00:27:05] But in 2 0 2 I had a brain tumor. And when they cut over my head, they traumatized medication, nerve offense, a paralyzed face. But something happened to me on that talk table that day, Danielle. [00:27:16] Mm-hmm. [00:27:17] John: I'm not sure what it was because I was unconscious. All I know is I recovered. I realized I had acquired some new skills and I pause. [00:27:29] Yeah. And I wait for everybody to get on the edge of their seat. Like, what happened, John, what? Skills. Skills I could acquire. I'm having brain surgery. [00:27:40] Mm-hmm. I [00:27:41] John: looked to my right and I looked to my left like it's the biggest secret. [00:27:45] Lean in and I whisper in a loud voice as I am able to visualize people's thoughts. And then I do some mental magic mentalism. Love it. And what I just did was I turned my biggest challenge into a superpower. [00:28:07] Danielle: Yes, you did. And I wanna pause you because when you said that in your talk, have, have you read Elizabeth Gilbert's book, big Magic? [00:28:15] Yes. [00:28:15] Danielle: When she talks about trickster energy, I was like, John Kippen is a freaking trickster. [00:28:22] That is trickster energy that you can shift. Before someone's very eyes. It's like you are performing magic and you are performing magic. You shifted before them and you invited them, your audience to see beyond their own limiting beliefs, their own projected truth. [00:28:47] John: They were distracted. They wanted to know why it was paralyzed, but they couldn't ask, did he have a stroke? Did he have be palsy? What was the reason? So I found them being distracted when I was performing. So I got that outta way in the first two minutes. [00:29:00] Mm-hmm. [00:29:01] John: I explained why my face is paralyzed. [00:29:03] And now I treat it as the experience is now I'm able to do superhuman things. [00:29:10] And now they're like, okay, cool. So as I perform [00:29:16] I focus on the spectator. Magic happens in your mind as a spectator. [00:29:22] Danielle: Oh, I love that magic happens in your mind [00:29:26] ​ [00:29:31] If you've ever wanted to start a journaling practice but didn't know where to start, or if you've been journaling off and on your whole life, but you're like, I wanna take this work deeper, I've got you covered. I've written a journal called Treasured, a Journal for unearthing you. It's broken down into seven key areas of your life, filled with stories, sentence stems, prompts, questions, and exercises. [00:29:51] All rooted in the work that I do with actual clients in my therapy sessions. I have given these examples to clients in sessions as homework, and they come back with insights that allow us to do such incredible work. This is something you can do in the privacy of your own home, whether you're in therapy or not. [00:30:10] It has context, it has guides. And hopefully some safety bumpers to help digging a little deeper feel possible, accessible and safe. You don't have to do this alone. And there's also a guided treasured meditation series that accompanies each section in the journal to help ease you into the processing state. [00:30:29] So my hope is to help guide you into feeling more secure with the most important relationship in your life, the one between you and you. Hop on over to the show notes and grab your copy today. And now back to the episode.​ [00:30:44] John: Magic is what you see in your mind or someone else sees in their mind. [00:30:49] Magic is that thing that immediately makes you present. [00:30:56] Danielle: Yeah. [00:30:57] John: And your, all of your sensors are now in a heightened state , whether it's a sunset or a beautiful beach or a beautiful woman or a magic trick or whatever it is, there's that sense of awe and wonder. [00:31:15] So as I would start to take each spectator, I would learn their names. [00:31:19] And I would use their names throughout the show. [00:31:22] Danielle: People love that. [00:31:23] John: People, I ask them, the one word in everybody's language that they love to hear the most is their own name . and so I use that as a way of engaging the audience. [00:31:33] They start leaning in and now they've got real smiles on their face [00:31:37] and I can literally see this wall that women in today's society are forced to put up as a self-protection mechanism. [00:31:45] Yeah. [00:31:46] John: I see this wall start to grow as they start to identify with me and they're like, I'm okay being myself. [00:31:54] And then the end of this [00:31:56] they're asking permission to hug me. [00:31:58] And , having a creative mind, I wanted to understand. What that is. What that, what was going on. [00:32:06] Danielle: You also, not only through performing magic, inviting the curiosity you could see in other people's faces into your opening act essentially, or your sleight of hand. [00:32:17] I'm gonna show you this over here so that you can not see what's coming here. Vulnerability in its purest form is magic because it's the one thing sharing the story you feel like you couldn't share. Letting somebody see the one part of you that you would never let anybody see 'cause you were so utterly convinced you would be outed or you would be cast out by exposing that vulnerability is the birthplace of true connection. [00:32:47] Yeah. Which is the ultimate magic trick. It's, it's like what they say in nightmares, if you stop and face the thing that's chasing you, it, it can't chase you anymore in the dream. And so you spent a decade, did I remember that correctly, you wanted to be a main stage performer at the Magic Castle? [00:33:06] It took you about 10 years and you did it. [00:33:08] John: I did. [00:33:09] Yeah. [00:33:09] Danielle: 10 years. [00:33:11] John: Yeah. [00:33:12] Danielle: 10 years. [00:33:13] John: It was my creative coping mechanism. I had hit rock bottom, was I suicidal? No, not really. But I was unhappy. [00:33:25] Danielle: Yeah. [00:33:26] John: I was, my girlfriend left me, and, fortunately I had a job that I could focus on. But I needed something more. And through sharing something so personal and tying magic into it and making it a positive instead of a negative [00:33:45] people are attracted to it. [00:33:49] Danielle: Yeah. Well, because you're holding fire in your hand. Yeah. You're not just saying it's possible, but you're living. You're turning it into a performance, which I think for an artist is one of the most selfless, beautiful acts. [00:34:11] John: It's what separates great artists from mediocre artists. What is he giving me to care about? [00:34:18] Danielle: I never thought about that with magic. What are they giving me to care about? [00:34:22] John: Yeah. What do I want them to think when they leave the theater? [00:34:27] Ability to put your own life in perspective. If John can, so can I. [00:34:33] That's my true message. [00:34:36] Any different is your superpower. [00:34:38] Now, my facial paralysis does not have to define me if I don't let it. [00:34:44] You know, Danielle I live my life that it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. [00:34:51] And that's bit me in the butt numerous times. [00:34:54] Danielle: I can also say the opposite, can bite you in the butt. I think I waited probably too long, many times for permission that wasn't really coming because no one can ultimately grant it. Right? Like, if there's a path you wanna carve, like the job that you built, all of the different things that you've done, there's no resume posted on LinkedIn. [00:35:15] No one's hot. Like that's an empowerment coach slash magician slash keynote speaker, slash documentarian like that. You have to get curious and still, and listen to that little voice inside and follow that curiosity to a path that may not make sense for anyone for a really long time. And I didn't do that. [00:35:40] And that can bite you in the butt too. 'cause regret's hard to hold. [00:35:42] John: Alex SBE came out on national television [00:35:45] to his fans, to the world and said, I'm scared. I am fighting the battle of my life and I'm gonna ask for everyone's good thoughts and prayers . of what I'm going through. I reached out to Nikki Trebek, Alex's daughter and I said, Nikki, I need to perform for your dad . we're having a 75th birthday party and we don't have any entertainment. [00:36:13] So if you wanna be the entertainment, and I was like. Damn. Yes. [00:36:18] Danielle: Well, yeah. I will go to his house and perform magic for him. a [00:36:22] John: restaurant, but [00:36:23] Danielle: Oh, a restaurant. Okay. [00:36:23] John: Wrote a unique magic show [00:36:25] With Jeopardy themes and the whole nine yards and he was actually at the table as one of my assistants. [00:36:33] Oh. Along with his daughter. so he was this, he needed to understand how things worked. [00:36:39] Was a genius. And so he was constantly looking at me like, wait a minute. That's not possible. Just embrace it, Alex. You're not gonna figure it out. Just enjoy it. [00:36:52] Danielle: That's awesome. [00:36:54] John: And there's, on my website, john kipp.com. There are some magic videos and there are two videos of me performing for Alex , sat with him, and I said, Alex, I need to share something with you that, when you came out so publicly about your diagnosis [00:37:10] I asked for everybody's support and love and prayers that resonated with me. I am here to give to you. You've been a part of my life and the lives of millions of people. [00:37:27] And your life's work is meaningful. [00:37:30] I just wanted to tell you that, 'cause I had a feeling that no one ever takes the time to say thank you for your life's work. [00:37:37] And he immediately started welling up. [00:37:39] Danielle: Well, anybody who makes something look easy that we do take for granted. [00:37:45] And I think that, like I appreciate so much in the telling of your story, you share not just the struggles, but the time you had a vision of yourself. On the main stage performing at the Magic Castle, like the most elusive place where magic is. And you didn't just wanna get in, you didn't just wanna get an audition, you didn't wanna just like get to per perform an illusion, like main stage. [00:38:23] You didn't just have a goal. You had the goal and you did it, but you also say that it took you 10 years. And there's usually themes that run with anxiety, about not enoughness and the crunchiness of time. There's never enough time. I'm not enough and there's not enough time. And not being worthy. [00:38:42] Yes, yes, yes. One of my main motivations when I started this podcast originally several years ago, was I was. Starting to increasingly feel, trapped in this sort of, world of before and after story. And it was no longer feeling inspirational. It was just another measuring stick for how not enough. [00:39:03] Yeah. 'Cause it, it's great to see where somebody was and where they are, but when I'm knee deep in my own struggle when I'm the caterpillar goo and the chrysalis, and I'm not the shiny butterfly, but I'm also not the caterpillar anymore. What do I do when my life is literally a shitty pile of goo this is something that most clients don't come right out and ask me like in sessions one, two, and three. But it inevitably comes well, I've been doing this for, so many months. How much longer is it gonna take? How long is it gonna take? And I just always, I appreciate when people can acknowledge. [00:39:41] The time and consistency that goes into healing [00:39:47] John: joy is in the journey. [00:39:48] Danielle: Mm. [00:39:49] John: Not in the destination. [00:39:51] And that's the thing I really focus with my clients. [00:39:55] I have clients come to me because they're holding themselves back in their life. [00:39:59] And it's my job to get that out of them by asking open-ended questions, by building a rapport, I can trust this guy. [00:40:08] Danielle: Yeah. Would you say that's your superpower as a coach? [00:40:11] John: Through my journey of reverse engineering who I am and who I wanted to become. Coming out the other side immediately understood that it's not about me. [00:40:24] Danielle: Yes. It's only true every single time. [00:40:27] John: The joy comes from helping others get that realization, [00:40:32] That they understand they are truly powerful and have a chance to shape their destiny. [00:40:40] That's why I talk about limiting beliefs. [00:40:43] And we grow up with our parents or whoever raised us, those are our belief systems. [00:40:49] And so that's what forms who you are. You stop dreaming. [00:40:54] That's what midlife crisis is all about. [00:40:58] Danielle: Yeah. [00:40:59] John: We got educated, we got a job, we built a career. We have a family. [00:41:06] Danielle: It's, I think the version of that I hear in my sessions is essentially I did everything right. Shouldn't I be feeling better than I am? Yeah. Like, I followed all the rules. I'm winning. Why does it not feel like I'm winning? Yeah. And finding our way back to that. [00:41:29] The unlearning and the unraveling. That is a, it's a process. [00:41:34] John: I'll talk to a friend. How you doing? And so many people respond automatically living the dream. But is it your dream? You're living? [00:41:46] Whose dream are you living? Because you're wasting your life by living someone else's dream. And that's why you get to that point in life where it's not enough. [00:41:58] Cause it's not your dream. You just finished the last 30 years building. [00:42:03] Danielle: Yeah. And the joy really is in the process and there's no way to enjoy the process of fulfilling the wishes of somebody else because you, what you're constantly chasing is when I get there, then the relief will come and then you're there and you're like, well, where's my pot of gold? [00:42:22] John: Yeah. I had, I spent 20 years learning how not to hide my face. [00:42:28] And what happened in March in 2020? The pandemic hit [00:42:33] now covering your face with a mask, became not only politically correct. [00:42:41] But government mandated and I'm like sitting there thinking to myself, what do I do? So I found a company who prints things on masks and I sent them a picture of my face and a picture of the lower part of my job. [00:43:01] Danielle: Trickster energy, John Kippen trickster. That's the new hyphen to your list of all of your accomplishments. [00:43:08] John: I would walk around and strangers would look at it and not understand. [00:43:12] Danielle: Right, right. But people who knew me [00:43:15] John: would do a double take. [00:43:17] Danielle: I will not hide. [00:43:19] John: Refuses to hide. [00:43:20] Even through a global pandemic. [00:43:23] Yeah. [00:43:23] John: I'm gonna live my life [00:43:25] Danielle: mm-hmm. On [00:43:26] John: my own terms. [00:43:28] Danielle: Yeah. I work too hard, too long to get free and I will not hide for you. Wow. Wow. And [00:43:37] John: when I share that story, people like, wow, John's done some soul searching. [00:43:44] Danielle: Which is why your clients come to you. [00:43:46] John: Yeah. [00:43:46] Danielle: Yeah. I unfortunately have come across many. People in the helping profession that haven't started with their first client, which is themselves. I put myself in that camp. I've talked about it on the podcast before, but I didn't start seeing a therapist until I became one, which is probably not the right order, but I didn't realize until I was sitting there trying to help people. [00:44:09] And then my own stuff was getting activated in the session. It's called Counter Transference. And, yeah, I was like, oh shit, I gotta look at the mirror. I gotta do a little more digging. But I think a, what leads a lot of people into helping professions is its desire to heal. And it sounds like in your case you did the herculean task of lifting your own self up before you said, now what can I offer you? [00:44:39] I wanna ask, just a purely curious, selfish question before we get to the very end I wanna ask. In your book playing the Hand you're Dealt how did you connect with Jamie Lee Curtis? The same way you did Alex Trebek? Did you just find someone and you DMed them and [00:44:55] John: you're like, her assistant worked for a production company [00:45:00] in a previous job. [00:45:02] Danielle: Gotcha. [00:45:02] John: That I knew. [00:45:03] When Jamie was like, I need it. So help with my computer. Her assistant said, I've got the guy for you. And I remember being at Jamie's house. [00:45:15] She knew me before my facial surgery, and after. [00:45:18] Danielle: So you have a history then? [00:45:19] John: Oh yeah. We met in 2000. [00:45:21] Danielle: Oh, okay. [00:45:22] John: So she saw me before. [00:45:24] She saw the struggle. Sure, she has two. Great kids. [00:45:29] And she adopted me as her third child. Wow. She saw the ability to help me. And so I had a filmmaker friend of mine reach out and said, John, I'd love your story. [00:45:45] I want to film a documentary on you. And I'm like, cool. So I realized I'm paying for the damn documentary. [00:45:51] Danielle: Oh. So I wanna offer you this gift, and by the way, here's the bill. [00:45:55] John: Yes, exactly. But at that point, I'm all in and I'm like, what do I have to lose? I'm a risk taker. I can afford it. [00:46:01] I've got money in the bank. [00:46:03] Let's make sure we stay on budget or close to budget, so there I am working on Jamie's computer and I'm staring at the screen and I'm summoning the courage. Ask Jamie. So I'm telling her the story. My friend Ryan's gonna direct this documentary about my life and my journey, and then I pause and I'm just staring at the screen. [00:46:23] I feel these eyes burning into the side of my head. [00:46:26] Mm-hmm. [00:46:28] John: And Jamie says, and [00:46:32] Danielle: I love that she didn't do it for you, but she made you do it. [00:46:36] John: And then at that point, I realized what the question was. I said, Jamie, will you be in my documentary? [00:46:44] And she goes, fuck yes, I will. [00:46:48] Danielle: Yeah. [00:46:49] John: She gets it. [00:46:50] Yeah. [00:46:51] John: Going through her sobriety, she wears her sobriety on her. Shoulder as a badge of honor. [00:47:00] And that is her message. [00:47:02] Yeah. [00:47:03] John: If she can get people to stop drinking by showing up for people. That's her ultimate goal in life. And so, she saw in me what I didn't see, [00:47:18] Danielle: and you asked the question. I think it's a lesson that I feel like I'm eternally playing a game of peekaboo with where I forget, and then I remember and then I forget and then I remember. But like the opportunities that you're asking for, you have to ask. [00:47:39] Yes. You have to say the thing. Right. Which is so brave and so vulnerable. But then the magic is sometimes when you ask, someone will say Yes. Now, in your case, she was essentially lovingly poking you until you, [00:47:55] John: asked. There was a point where I was debating plastic surgery. [00:48:00] Did I want to try to fix my face? Because at the end of the day, I wanted symmetry at rest. I wanted to be able to get rid of the droopiness and just, have a symmetrical base. That's all I really wanted. Sure. And because I would say, I hit my smile. And I've had friends come up and say, John, your first smile, we love your smile. [00:48:23] But I didn't love my smile. And until I, not up here, not in my head, but in my heart, accepted my smile. I couldn't move forward. I couldn't heal. And once I accepted my new smile, I found joy. I found that I could love myself. [00:48:46] And what's funny is when you get to that point, [00:48:49] yeah. [00:48:50] John: You overcome whatever that thing is that's holding you back. [00:48:53] Yeah. [00:48:54] John: And you want to share it with every person you come in contact with. [00:49:00] Danielle: Yeah. You are the love you're seeking. [00:49:02] John: Yes. Yes. And you are your acceptance. [00:49:05] Danielle: It reminds me of, something. He said in an interview, in, A New Earth, but author Eckert Tolle said that right before his essential death of the, he called it the death of his ego, but we could call it enlightenment or rebirth. [00:49:19] But he remembers the last thing he said before he went to sleep was, I can't live with myself anymore. And it wasn't about in the interpretation , of , taking one's own life . but what he realized is that he couldn't live with the self that was hating him. He couldn't live with that self. [00:49:40] And that self never woke up. But he did. [00:49:45] John: Through my journey [00:49:46] Of coming to accept myself for who I am. I immediately see others. [00:49:53] Yeah. [00:49:53] John: How they're hiding. [00:49:54] Before they recognize it. And so my coaching is all about not saying, this is why you're hiding. [00:50:03] That's what's holding you back. [00:50:06] Danielle: What you said about once you, you see somebody's wall so clearly because you understand your own so well. My less eloquent way of saying that to clients, it's once you smell bullshit, you can't unm it. It's the scent in the air and you're like, huh, what am I smelling? [00:50:23] Oh, it's bullshit. Well, John, I would love to know your, don't cut your own bang moment. [00:50:30] John: I'm backstage. There are a thousand people in the audience and I had theatrical training I had a talk memorized. It had to be 12 minutes long. [00:50:39] I'm doing a magic trick with other people that are coming up stage. I needed to control that. I got there early the morning of the TED Talk and helped the guys focus the lights so that it looked better. I'm all in. I want to shine in this TED Talk. , I remember I'm going up on stage and I'm saying, to the cherry picker operator, can I give you a hand? Because I have lighting experience. And I expected the presenter come and say, no, John, you're the actor. Go in your, the green room and there's some donuts and coffee , and we'll call you already, but you didn't. She knew that I was there to make the entire event better. And she let me do it, [00:51:18] That's awesome. [00:51:19] John: This is my first real speech. Okay, in front of a thousand people. And I knew that I had a limited time to get the audience on my side. [00:51:30] Get the audience engaged. How was I gonna be able to break their, going through their phone, talking to a neighbor, drinking, eating, snacking in a full day of speech? [00:51:41] Yeah. [00:51:43] John: So I said, I wanna go first. And everybody has said, great, but we don't, you can go first. And right before the mc went on stage to introduce me. I did a magic trick war. I turned Monopoly money into real money and then back again. [00:52:00] So as a magician, everything was possible. I turned monopoly into real money, but then I realized that's actually called counterfeiting he stays out for like seven seconds. I did that to the mc and now he just saw a miracle happen. [00:52:16] So he turns around and walks on stage beaming, and he told that story to the audience and said, Hey guys, your next speaker just did a miracle. He turned monopoly money into real money in front of my eyes. Pay attention to this cat. [00:52:37] Yeah. [00:52:38] John: So I walked on that stage. I had the love of everybody in the audience that everybody wanted to see what I was gonna do. [00:52:46] Everybody wanted to hear what I was gonna say, so I didn't have to warm up the audience. I got the mc to do it for me. Genius. And I do that every time I speak because it works but anyway, three quarters of the speech, I'm standing on my red circle and I'm delivering my talk. [00:53:08] And the front lights go out. [00:53:10] Danielle: Wait, you were three fours of the way done when they went out. [00:53:13] John: I'm standing in shadows. And my first reaction was, whoa. That Whoa. Got the lighting guy to realize, holy shit, I hit the wrong button, and he brought the lights slowly back up. [00:53:27] As the lights went back up, I went magic [00:53:32] and so I got an amazing laugh from the audience. [00:53:36] Because I cut the tension, I was doing improv. [00:53:38] I remember walking off stage and the producer of the event said, John, don't worry about, we'll edit that part out. And I said, don't you dare. That was my finest moment. Don't you dare edit that out. [00:53:54] I want that in the video. [00:53:57] She just smiled as I went back to the dressing room and sat down and then the adrenaline was like, whew. Walking out into the audience after the event and having strangers just come up to me and wanna hug me and say, holy cow, I resonate with your message. [00:54:18] And my message on the TED Talk was, treat people are different with respect to compassion. [00:54:23] That's what TED talks are all about. You want one key message and that was my message. [00:54:27] You never know, you might be in their shoes in an instant. [00:54:34] Danielle: I wanna add to that, another way to speak to the value of doing some self investigation, whether that's through journaling, through therapy, or seeking out a coach from someone like yourself is, because that expression of, treat other people the way you would wanna be treated. [00:54:53] What I know is that we don't treat ourselves all that well. A lot of us, many of us don't treat ourselves well, which is why accessing the compassion. Of treating others kindly is sometimes harder for us to find, jumping to criticism or judgment, because there's something we are rejecting in us. [00:55:13] So I think a way to do the thing you're saying , that beautiful treat others with kindness and compassion. The best way to do that is to look within. And I invite anybody listening to go to the show notes, visit John's website, seek out a coaching call, grab a copy of his book. There are resources that can help you be kinder to yourself, to lowering the walls, to lifting the veil, to seeing yourself in a new way, to performing the ultimate illusion, which is [00:55:52] to love yourself more fully exactly as you are so that we can be kinder to each other. 'cause we need that, we need a lot more kindness. [00:56:00] Thank you, John. Do we have the information we need for our listeners to get the special code? [00:56:06] John: John kipping.com. [00:56:08] Slash free gift. [00:56:11] Danielle: Ooh, you heard it here. John kipping.com/free gift. And this is only the gift for those of you who have listened this far. [00:56:20] So if you listen to the beginning and you just try to skip to the show notes, sorry. You ain't getting a gift. Thank you, John. [00:56:28] Thank you so much for joining me on this incredible episode of Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I hope that you love listening because I thoroughly enjoyed making it. My favorite episodes are the ones where I get to learn something too. I'm also a listener. And benefiting from the wisdom and insights of all of the experts, creatives, performers, adventurers seekers that I get an opportunity to meet in this podcast format. [00:56:56] Don't forget to check out the show notes and please before you sign off , always remember rate, review, subscribe to the podcast when you interact with the podcast. It just helps send it out like a rocket ship to other people that are looking for the same value that you are. And it also helps create a conversation where I can continue to develop and cultivate something that benefits you more and is more fun for you to listen to. Feedback is great, and also if you just wanna throw a compliment, that's sweet too. But thank you so much for being here. [00:57:26] Your intention, your time mean the absolute world to me, and I hope you continue to have an incredible day. [00:57:32] ​

美股不斷創高，科技股貢獻尤多，而先前通過的大而美法案中，最受惠的仍然是 AI 與半導體公司，大而美法案中到底都有哪些細節？ 本集邀請研究員 Ralice 來聊聊，企業條款為何最惠及 AI 與半導體？大而美促進核能復興？為何要增加國防與邊境安全支出？

Jess, Sarina, Jennie and Jess are all here to talk about taking a break from various angles: the mechanics angle, the guilt angle, the fear angle, the identity angle and inspiration angle. Mechanics. * Leave yourself notes about the project when you leave off, for example, “The next thing that needs to happen is this…” so when you come back, you know how to get back into the project. This is Sarina's daily practice, but it really helps when she has to leave a project behind. This can be especially helpful when you have to go away for an unexpected emergency. * Jennie adds that the only way you can do this is if you have a place to keep and find those notes to yourself. In one of your 47 notebooks or in the document itself? Or, as Jess adds, on the side of the cardboard box you use for trash in your basement workshop that you almost recycle by accident. * Jennie also notes that you have to have intentionality, to know what you are writing so you can know what comes next, whether that's in your outline, inside outline, or whatever. * Jennie has a little notebook she brings on vacation with her and she downloads those ideas into that just before going to sleep at night when she's away. * These vacation inspiration moments are much like shower thoughts, part of the magic of our brain unhooking, getting into deep default mode network, and becoming its most creative. * Sarina mentioned an article about how walking makes you more creative, also a study in why tapping into the default mode network is so effective as a practice. Fear * The only way to get over this is to sit down and do it. Open the document. Just start. * Jennie points out that getting back into a manuscript when it's disappeared feels horrifying but it's much easier than it sounds and has happened to one of our frequent guests, Sarah Stewart Taylor, when her then-toddler created a password for the document that was not recoverable. She had to give in to the fact that her book was gone, and recreate it out of her memory. Guilt and Identity* It only took Jess until her fiftieth year to figure out that her process - of walking, gardening, beekeeping, musing - is a part of writing, and that's cool. * Can you be a writer if you are not actively writing? Yes, if research, planning, thinking and otherwise cogitating is a part of your writing process. Get over it. The words have to land on the page eventually, of course, but if you are doing both, have grace for the not-actively-writing part of the writing process. #AmReadingTess Gerritsen's series set in Maine (The Spy Coast and The Summer Guests) and, once she finished those two books, Jess went back to The Surgeon, where it all started for Tess Gerritsen. Stay tuned for our interview with her! Andy Weir's Project Hail Mary (Don't watch the movie trailer if you plan to read the book!)Sarah Harman's All the Other Mothers Hate MeAmy Tintera's Listen for the LieRosemerry Wahtola Trommer The UnfoldingRichard Osman's The Thursday Murder Club (coming to Netflix in August!)Janelle Brown's What Kind of Paradise Want to submit a first page to Booklab? Fill out the form HERE.Writers and readers, KJ here, if you love #AmWriting and I know you do, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly #AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been #AmDoing: sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done, which I mean that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at kjdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing.Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.Transcript below!EPISODE 458 - TRANSCRIPTKJ Dell'AntoniaWriters and readers, KJ here. If you love Hashtag AmWriting, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly Hashtag AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been ‘hashtag am-doing', sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done—which, I mean, that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at KJdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing or of course in the show notes for this podcast. Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.KJ Dell'AntoniaHey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the weekly podcast, while writing all the things—short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction. And somebody told me they thought this was a recorded intro. And I just want you to know I do this live every time, which is why there's this, come on, there's more variety here, people, and you should know that. Anyway, here we are, all four of us, for we got a topic today. But before we do that, we should introduce ourselves in order of seniority, please.Jess LaheyI'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And I laugh, because when you said seniority, all I could do was think of us in our little eave space in my old house, down the street from you, not knowing what the heck we were doing. But yeah, we've been doing this for a long time now. You can find my... you can find my journalism at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, at The Atlantic, and everything else at Jessicalahey.com.Sarina BowenI'm Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of many novels. My new one this fall is called Thrown for a Loop, and it will be everywhere that books are sold, which is very exciting to me, and all about me at Sarinabowen.com.Jennie NashI am the newest of the co-hosts, and so happy to be among this group of incredibly smart and prolific and awesome women, and I'm the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, which is a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And you can find us at bookcoaches.com or authoraccelerator.com.KJ Dell'AntoniaI'm KJ Dell'Antonia. I'm the author of three novels, the latest of which is Playing the Witch Card, and the most televised of which is The Chicken Sisters—Season Two coming soon to a Hallmark network near you. And I'm also the former editor and lead writer of The Motherlode, making me our... well, and Jennie too, like the crossover. I've done too many different kinds of writing—probably should have stayed in my lane. Oh well. And our plan today—as we're recording, it is summer. And a pretty frequent thing that happens in the summer is that you need to put your project down for a little while, because you have house guests, because you're going on the kind of vacation that does not involve working, because you just need a break or you're sick. That's not really a summer thing, but it definitely happens. Anyway, we wanted to talk about how, you know, what—what do you do to make that work better?Jess LaheyI think a lot about being a parent and needing to take a break too. And you know, this is something I talk a lot about with, you know, other writers who are sort of struggling, especially since I read a lot about parenting—who are struggling to—with that guilt of, you know, like, I feel like I owe my time to the words, and I feel like I owe my time to the children. And finding a way to take a break from the words and not feel guilty about not being with the words can be really, really hard, especially when you're going gung-ho on something. So I want to make sure that we figure out a way to have a break without guilt. That's like the big question I get a lot—is, how do you, you know, either from the parenting or the writing side?KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd I was thinking about it more from a mechanics side.Jess LaheyYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaHow do you put this thing aside for a week or two weeks or even a month? And know where you were?Jess LaheyRight.KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd come back and feel like it does not take you forever to dig in.Sarina BowenYeah. Um, so we've got the guilt question. We've got the mechanics of how to do it. And I would just like to add a layer, which is the fear factor.Jess LaheyYeah.Sarina BowenI have this thing where, when I walk away from a manuscript, I become afraid of it. So it seems scarier when I take a break. Like, even if it's not true—that I don't know where I am or that I become unmoored from the channel of that book and it seems intimidating to go back to.Jess LaheyCan I add one more layer as well? And that's the identity factor. You know, if I identify as a writer, what am I if I'm not actively writing something? And that messes my head up a lot. So I would love to add that added layer in as well and make sure we discuss that.Jennie NashWell, and I have something totally different from all of those, which is that I often find when I go on vacation, I am more inspired and motivated to work on my project than I was in my real life. It tends to light a fire under me. So then I'm faced with that choice of, you know, wanting to really lean into it. And, you know, just like a really small piece of that story is, I love to write on airplanes. I just love it. Give me a very long flight, and it's—I just want to work and not talk to anybody. And, you know, it's awesome. So I feel some guilt around that. When I'm with my family, it's like, don't talk to me, don't watch movies. You know, I'm—I'm enjoying my plane time, doing my work. So I have that reality.KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, that's the choice that you have to start with, is, am I just, you know, can I not? Am I—do I need to accept the reality, which is that this is a beach trip with extended family and some, you know, my—to multiple generations, and I inevitably am going to be the person who is cooking and figuring out where the garbage has to go in the Airbnb? I should, you know, I—I will feel better if I just accept the reality that I'm not going to wake and work. Or, you know, is it a—is it a trip where you can schedule some work time and want to? Or is it a trip where you affirmatively want to give yourself a break? Or is it also, I mean, I sort of think that the last possibility—well, there are probably multiples—is I just want to touch this every day. So I feel like you can kind of—you're like, you're either like, just—no, not going to happen, not going to pretend it's going to happen, not going to feel the guilt. That's the—that's where we are. And there's sort of a, I just want to open the file every day and keep it warm and friendly. And on, you know these three—three days I have an hour.Jess LaheySo let's do this. Let's—let's do mechanics first, since that's the real nuts-and-bolts stuff, and then we'll talk about all the touchy-feely stuff after that. So let's do mechanics first. It sounds like you have thoughts, KJ…?KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, I was actually thinking that Sarina did this pretty recently.Jess LaheyYeah, that's true.Sarina BowenYeah. Like, you know, I, um, I have found mechanically that leaving yourself notes every time you walk away from your manuscript is a good thing. So this is sort of like a best practices in your life idea, where I will have a writing day, and it's done now, and I'm going to get up and go do other things in my life. If I pick up my notebook, and I write down where I am—like, okay, and the next thing that has to happen is this—like, it could be really short or not. But taking better notes about the structure of the thing I'm working on is serving me on so many levels that it just slots right in here. Like, I took a big trip in April, and I thought I might work, but then I didn't, and I really seamlessly came right back in, because I knew where I was, and I avoided a lot of my own fear. So, if the practices that help you become a good day-to-day writer also can be practices that help you in this very instance, the mechanics of picking up your book again are that you left yourself a note right in your document, um, or in your notebook, that says, and here's what I think is supposed to happen next. And, yeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaThat's going to be gold for an unexpected break too, because that happens, you know, right? You get one of those phone calls, and it's a week before you're back or more.Sarina BowenYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah. I love this practice. This is one of those things I forget to do.Jennie NashI feel like I—I feel like I have to add to that a couple things. That the only reason you can do that is, A, if you have a place to take notes, which—which could be your, the document itself that you're working on. But Sarina talked about a notebook, right? You have a place that you know, that you can find that, which is not an insignificant thing to have, or...Sarina BowenCorrect!Jennie NashRight?! Or, in the case of me, it's like, I have 47 notebooks. Well, which one did I put the note in?Sarina BowenRight.Jennie NashBut then the second thing is, I mean, this is something that I find so inspiring about the way you work, Sarina, and it—and it's a thing that I teach—is you have to know what you're writing, you know, in order to know where you are, what the structure is, and what you're doing, and to ask those—like, you have to have done the thought work of what, what it is you're trying to do and what your intention is. Otherwise, you sort of don't ever know where you are or where you're going. So...Sarina BowenRight, but that's on two levels. Like, you could—let's just say you have successfully written yourself an Inside Outline, you know, the way that you do it—you still might need that granular thing.Jennie NashOh yeah!Sarina BowenLike, you might know where you are in the arc of the book, but you might actually need the note that's like, "And now we're going to wash the dishes." I mean, let's please not put that in the novel, but you know what I mean.Jennie NashYeah, yeah. But that intentionality of, on the big picture, what am I doing, and on the small picture—in this chapter, in this scene, in this moment, and with this character—what was I... how'd that fit into the whole? What was I thinking? And those things are not—they're not easy. Like, we're talking about them like, "Oh, you just..." You know, like I was saying, what if you have 47 notebooks? That literally is a problem I have. It's like, I know I wrote this note down, and I don't know where I put it—digitally or analog.Sarina BowenRight. I confess I actually do still have this problem. Like, even with all of my best practices, like, put into—sometimes it's like, well, is that in the document, or is it in my notebook? And then—or I thought about it at four in the morning and actually didn't write it down anywhere. And I'm looking anyway...Jennie NashOh, I do that too. I absolutely do that too. I'm convinced that I left a note while I was driving—that's a thing I often do. I'll leave—I'll have Siri write me a note, and then somehow it doesn't appear, or it's like, I know I did this, I know I asked her to do this... you know.Jess LaheyI actually have—I was doing the recycling, and I realized that I was in big trouble because three sides of a box I'd had down in the basement with me while I was working on a project—I was doing something with my, getting some beehives ready—and I was listening to an audiobook that is research for a project I'm working on, and I had scribbled some really important notes to myself about how I was supposed to start a chapter on. And it was a great start. It was like a whole paragraph on the three sides of the box, with an old Sharpie I found down in the basement. And then I realized I almost recycled, like, some really useful outline stuff.Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jess LaheySo normally—no, so I actually have them. While you guys are talking about something else, since we do see each other while we're recording this, I'll show you later. But the thing that I normally do is either in the document, like right where I left off, or in my main notebook, because I am so bad at finding those notes that I have strewn all over my office or on the side of a cardboard box.KJ Dell'AntoniaI have had the problem lately of I'm not in a manuscript, and that it's much easier when you're in a manuscript to come back to a manuscript, but I'm in a notebook full of assorted random Blueprint challenge, you know, like trying to—I'm, I'm in figuring out where this is going mode, which means I do a lot of thinking while I'm not working that then hopefully I go and write down. But it also means that I frequently sit down and I'm like, well, am I going to think about who these people are? Am I going to think about what the plot is? What am I going to do? So I've been trying to leave myself like a task, something that will, that will just get me, get me back in, because sometimes that's the problem. I, you know, I open the notebook, and there's no obvious thing to do, and the next thing I know, I'm buying running shoes.Jennie NashWell, since we're talking about nuts and bolts, when I said that I often get inspired when I go away or go on vacation and I want to work, I'm not talking about I'm going to go sit in a library or coffee shop for three hours. What, what I mean by that is I often have ideas that I want to capture, and so I have a little notebook that I bring on vacation, and what I like to do is go to bed early enough that I can download all the things I thought that day. I need that space and time to—if it's, if I'm working on something, it's in my head. It's not going to not be in my head. And so the one sort of new mechanical thing that I, that I do, is have that "vacation notes notebook" with me.KJ Dell'AntoniaI always carry one, and I never use it. So there's that.Jess LaheyI get—I am at my most inspired to write when I specifically can't write, which is usually behind the wheel of my car. So I use, in my car, I have been known to, you know, either scribble on things—which, totally don't do that—or to record myself on my phone. But then, audio things, I'm particularly bad at going back and listening to; that seems like it's just too much work. So those tend to get lost a lot. I need to come up with a better system for that. But it is predictable that if I am in a place where I cannot physically write, I will be at my most inspired to write.Jennie NashJess, that's kind of what I'm talking about. That's what happens to me, is I might say I'm leaving all work behind. I'm going off the grid. I'm not doing the thing. And that's when I most want to do the thing. And I, like, my brain seems to really get inspired. What? What do you think that's about? Is that...Jess LaheyI, you know, I, I was very worried that it was my sort of, um—sorry, what's the word I'm looking for? It was—it's my, my brain's way of saying, "Oh, you couldn't possibly work now, so let's have some of the best ideas so that you seem like a good little doobie writer, but it's physically impossible for you to write now." It's just a really weird thing, and maybe one of the other things I thought about is that I'm often listening to a book that I'm really into, which also inspires me to write. I've been listening to a lot of really great books lately, and you can't listen to a book—even one that inspires you deeply—and actually write at the same time, which is another quandary.Sarina BowenYou know what, though? This is not uniquely your brain messing with you—like, this is shower thoughts.Multiple Speakers[Overlapping: “Mm-hmm.” “Sorry.” “Ohhh...”]Sarina BowenBut everybody—everybody has those great ideas in the shower, and it's because you have unhooked yourself. You are just in there with the shampoo and the conditioner and that razor that you probably should change the blade with, and like, you know, there is nowhere to write and nothing to do. So your brain is like, I am free right now to unclench and actually solve this problem of chapter 17, and that's what—that's what happens.Jess LaheyIt is my duty, whenever we mention this, to bring up that—years ago, Ron Lieber, the write... uh... the "Your Money" columnist at The New York Times, told me that he has a waterproof little whiteboard situation that's— that lives in the shower. He and his wife, Jodi Kantor—amazing writer as well, Pulitzer Prize–winning writer, even— that these would be people who might just need a waterproof whiteboard in the shower with them.Sarina BowenBut would that ruin the magic…?KJ Dell'AntoniaIt might just...Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jess LaheyIf you had a place to write it down, your brain would—like—be... your brain would say, "Sorry, I'm not coming up with good ideas."Sarina BowenBecause I don't think I am willing to take this risk. I take a lot of risks in my life, but this one—like; we do not mess with the shower thoughts. I think, I think...KJ Dell'AntoniaSo, so what do we do if you didn't do any of this? If what—you know—what are—you're listening to this podcast, coming back from your trip, and you're like, I... was writing... something...Sarina BowenYou know what, though? I almost feel that we should point out the fact that, like, that is kind of unlikely. Like, somebody should feel welcome to take this trip and to have all those thoughts, and even if you didn't write them down on your whiteboard in the shower or on your handy notebook, like, I would argue that unhitching yourself in the first place possibly leads to a lot of creative development that, even if you don't capture it in the moment, is still with you. Like, I had this fantastic trip in April. I thought I was going to work, and then I did not, and it was, like, the best two weeks of my life. So then, the other day, my husband said, “Hey, there's a new article you need to read in The Athletic,” which is a New York Times sports blog, and I have just pulled it up so that we can recommend it, about how walking makes you a better problem solver. And the framing story of this article is about a retired baseball coach, but, um, but then, when they got around to studying it, um, they said this question planted the seed for the first set of studies to measure if walking produces more creativity. In the series of experiments, Oppezzo and Schwartz [Marily Oppezzo & Daniel L. Schwartz] asked 176 college students to complete different creative thinking tasks while sitting, walking on a treadmill, walking outside through campus, or being pushed in a wheelchair. In one example, the students had to come up with atypical uses for random objects, and anyway, on average, the students' creative output increased by 60% when they were walking.Jennie NashThat's so cool!Sarina BowenAnd the article is—it's so cool—it's called An MLB manager found value in long walks. Research suggests it's a ‘brain-changing power'.Jess LaheyI have put a spot for it in the show notes. And I should mention that this is all part of what we call the default mode network. This is the—the part of our brain that is the wandering, most creative part of our brain. And we can get there lots of ways. Walking is a fantastic way to do it.KJ Dell'AntoniaSarina, if you do have the fear of the manuscript when you're coming back to it, like, take—you know, travel back in time to maybe when you were a little less confident in your abilities. What do you do to get past the fear and sit down?Sarina BowenThere is only one solution, and that is sitting down. And I'm not so great at this—like, when, when the fear creeps up on me, in spite of my best intentions, man, I will do anything to avoid that sucker. And then when I finally do, and I wade back in, almost every time my response is, Oh, this isn't so bad. I know where—I kind of remember now. It's going to be fine, you know. But it's so easy to put off work out of fear. It's—it's the—it's the one big obstacle. Like, I don't put work off for other reasons, you know, because I'm tired or whatever. It's because I'm afraid that there's something fundamentally wrong with the project, or fundamentally wrong with me, and that is almost always what's keeping me from doing good work.Jennie NashThere was, back in the day before computers became what they are now, people would frequently lose manuscript drafts. It was just much harder to save your work. And I can't—I can't explain exactly what changed, but it was. People frequently lost huge chunks of their work if they didn't actively back up. And when I was a new coach and working with writers who would lose their manuscripts, they would be—understandably—beyond devastated. And this often was full manuscripts, just unrecoverable, full manuscripts. And it was true that if they sat down to recreate what they'd written, it would really flow from them, for that same reason—it was still in their brain. They—they had—they'd written it, so there was a sense that they had, they owned it, and they could sit down, and it was kind of quite remarkable. And I would confidently say to them, just sit down, start writing. I think it will come to you, and it always did. It's very interesting.Jess LaheyThere's an example—we've interviewed Sarah Stewart Taylor many times now, and she tells the story of, a long time ago, her youngest managed to crawl across the computer in such a way as to create a password for the document itself, and there's nothing that can be done. She was on the phone with Word—with Microsoft—for a long time, and they're like, look, this is a password you created. We can't—that's not recoverable. So she had to go and recreate—I believe she was about a third of the way into a book—but she said that it actually flowed really well, and that, you know, she'd had it, it had been cooking and stuff like that. So that massive fear of, oh my gosh, how am I going to get back into this project when it has just disappeared? It turned out to be not a thing—that it actually came really easily to her.Jennie NashJess, you're bringing all the very weird stories today, and I'm so here for it—notes on boxes, babies making passwords.Jess LaheyYeah, well, and the hard part—the funny part about that—is like, you cannot recreate a toddler, essentially, like bashing away at your keyboard and creating a password that's never coming back. Sorry.Sarina BowenThere is a writer—she once gave a talk that I heard—a very successful young adult author, Cynthia Leitich Smith, and she apparently wrote a discovery draft of the novel to, like, figure out what it was about and then deleted it and started over on purpose.Jennie NashOn purpose?!Sarina BowenYes, and everyone in the room gasped because, of course, you know that I just rather, like, been in a lot of pain. I'd rather have oral surgery than delete my first draft of a novel. But, um... but yeah, if she was unafraid to get back there after that kind of break, then I think we can all handle it.KJ Dell'AntoniaThis is true. I've never deleted a draft, but I have just gone—poofft—"Let's, let's, let's start again." In fact, almost every time. Kind of sad. I'm doing it now, actually, but it's not a full draft. Anyway. So take the breaks, right? That's what we're saying here.Sarina BowenYeah, take the break.KJ Dell'AntoniaYou can break however you do it, you know, whichever thing you pick, and if you don't do what you thought you were going to do, that's cool, too. It's going to—it's going to be fine.Jess LaheyCan I mention something that has—so that now that we've sort of done mechanics, we've done a little bit about the fear thing, the—the identity thing—has been really hard for me, in that I have these two books that I've written, and I've written a bunch and researched a bunch of things over the past couple of years, and people keep asking me, what are you writing? What are you writing? And the reality is, like, I'm not. I'm working on something, I'm researching something, and I've written a lot of things. In fact, now I'm holding up my cardboard box pieces—I found them. But the day—I'm not, like, meeting a 1200-words-a-day goal. And sometimes I feel really... I feel like a fraud. I feel like a massive fraud. Like, what kind of writer is not actually sitting down and writing 2,000 words a day? And that's incredibly difficult for me. Like, I don't deserve to call myself a writer, even though I have a couple of books out there and I wrote—you know—did all this other stuff. But the thing that I have—there are a couple of things that have really helped—and one of those is to understand that and have some grace for myself around what I happen to know full well what my process is. Yes, I wrote a couple of book proposals that didn't turn into books, but it was only through writing the book proposals that I discovered that those books weren't something that I wanted to write, and only through doing all of this research on audiobooks and writing on the side of cardboard boxes. That's the way I've written every one of my books. And it's not—it's just what works for me. And so having a little bit of this, you know, this feeling of insecurity as a writer, I don't think is—I don't think is unique to me. I think a lot of writers feel this, and it's...KJ Dell'AntoniaNo, all the rest of them are...Jess LaheyAll of them are really...KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah, no, everyone else is just like, well, of course. No, I'm not an imposter.Jess LaheyBut what's great is when I sit down with other writers and I say, what is an integral part of your process that isn't actually about putting the words on the page? That's not some bogus, like, excuse for not writing. You know, the gardening is part of it, the—the research is part of it, the listening to audiobooks is part of it. The writing—or the walking—is part of it. And it's not just a part of it. It is an incredibly important part of it for me, and—and understanding that and owning that about myself has been really a good thing for allowing myself to not—I'm not productive when I just feel guilty or like an imposter every day. It—that's not good for my process. But none of you ever feel that, right?KJ Dell'AntoniaOr apparently the people around you…Jess LaheyThe other thing that has been—well, the other thing that's been really, really helpful is the—and especially from the parenting perspective—is, or the marriage perspective, or the dog perspective, or the bees perspective, is I need to be fully committed to the thing right in front of me when I'm doing that thing. And if I'm feeling guilty about not being with the words when I'm with my children, or not being with my children when I'm with the words, that is awful, too. And so I have found that when I have to let go of all the other stuff and be fully, 100% in, I'm highly distractible. And so if I'm not fully in the thing, and that—all that guilt of not being over there doing that other thing—that's just taking away from the actual process of writing or researching or whatever it is, or taking care of my bees. I have to be fully in the thing I'm in and not feel guilty about not doing something else. And that's been a growth moment for me, too. It only took me—how old am I? I'm 55 now, and I got there somewhere around 50, I think.Jennie NashThere is also—I mean, I—I love what you're saying, and that is a thing to strive for, for sure—to be, to be present in whatever you're doing. But there is also this idea—I always think of it as mental real estate—that you leave for your project, for your idea, for your writing, for your book. That you, that you have a space in your brain devoted to that, and that you visit, whether or not you're producing words. And I think that that, too, is writing. I think, in some ways, that's more writing than sitting at the keyboard. I mean, I always object to the process of just putting words down. And a lot of the things that challenge writers to do that, because they skip that part—the thinking part and the having-the-part—you know, the real estate-in-your-brain part. And I think this connects to the shower—shower thoughts, right? You're gardening or beekeeping, you're walking, you're thinking, you're writing proposals and throwing them out. You're doing all that, that, that's writing. That's the—that's writing in my mind.KJ Dell'AntoniaAnd it's not... I mean the other thing we do say a lot is, you know, "Good writing comes last."Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell'AntoniaYou've got to do the other stuff. So you can do it on vacation, or you could not do it on vacation. This—I don't think—we just—maybe I—this was my idea, and I think maybe I just needed the reassurance. I have a couple weeks coming up where I'm probably not going to do anything, and I just needed a reminder that that's cool. That's cool. It's all right. It's going to be okay. That's what I—if y'all could just pat me on the head and say "it's going to be okay."Multiple Speakers[Overlapping voices: “Mm-hmm,” “Sorry,” “Ohhh...”]KJ Dell'AntoniaSix or ten times an hour, that might be about what I need.Jess LaheyWell and one of the other things that has been really cool this summer is I've been on a streak of really good books. And every one of those really good books that I've been reading has made me like, Oh, I could do this. Oh my gosh, I could do that. I could write like her. I could I could write this other thing. And it's, it's all that energy is good and it's all a good thing to sit on a beach and read a book, or sit in the woods and read a book. It's all great.KJ Dell'AntoniaAll right, everybody, go collect some energy. Hey, on that note, who's read something good lately?Jennie NashI want to hear all these great books, Jess.Jess LaheySo I really have been on this roll. I've already talked about Atmosphere in an earlier podcast, the Taylor Jenkins Reid thing. But then I've been on this Tess Gerritsen jag, because we're—I'm interviewing Tess Gerritsen later this week. You guys will get to hear her later this summer. I am... Sarina and KJ, I believe, read the first of her new series that she has set in Maine and with a couple of retired CIA agents and spies in Maine. And then I enjoyed those so much that I went all the way back to the beginning—to her first book, The Surgeon, which I didn't even know was turned into this whole series called Rizzoli and Isles. It's a television show—I had no idea. And now I'm deep into Tess Gerritsen land. I'm still—I found out that there's going to be a movie of the book by the guy who wrote The Martian, Andy...Sarina BowenAndy WeirJess LaheyAndy Weir, thank you. And I was warned very specifically on social media not to watch the preview—the trailer—for the new movie that is going to be coming out with Ryan Gosling later on this summer, because it ruins the book. The book is called Hail Mary… Project Hail Mary. So I very quickly turned away from social media and said, Ooh, I better read the book really quickly before anyone ruins it for me, and I am enjoying the heck out of Project Hail Mary. So it's been really fun. Yeah.Sarina BowenI am reading a book that KJ put into my hands. And the fun part is that I don't remember why she put it into my hands, you know. Like, why did I pick up this book? Like, it happens all the time. It's called All the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harman.Jennie NashWhat a great title.Sarina BowenYeah, like, I picked up this book, and my husband said, oh my God, what a great title. And so, yes, that's super cool. And it's very voice-y. And the—the flap copy has the—a premise that smacks of a thriller, but the voice isn't like all deep, dark thriller. And so I think maybe the contrast of those two things might be why KJ put it into my hands. But I am enjoying the fabulous writing, and I'm—I'm still at the beginning, but the way she introduces characters is really sharp. So even that alone is like a little master class on introducing characters.KJ Dell'AntoniaYeah, that was why I gave it to you, was that we'd been talking about, you know, the voice, and also because we'd been talking about, like, funny thrillers versus thriller-y thrillers. And this isn't funny, but it's super voice-y. It reminds me of the one you pressed into my hands, which maybe is a little funnier—Listen for the Lie.Sarina BowenYeah, yeah.Jennie NashWell, I'm reading something very different, which is not—not very beachy. I go to a yoga class that is taught by a middle grade English teacher, and she runs her yoga class sort of like English class, where she always starts with a poem and throughout the class, she refers back to the poem in a very embodied way that you're doing the yoga around. And then she reads the poem again at the end. It's—its spectacular. She's—she's so popular at our yoga studio that you have to, you know, fight your way in. But she read a poem by a woman named Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer—and that's Rosemerry like Christmas Merry, so: Rosemerry. And the book is called The Unfolding. And I say it's very different from what you are all mentioning because this woman experienced the death of her young son and father in very close proximity, and her poems are ostensibly about grief, but they're just filled with joy and hope and delight. And, you know, it's kind of that thing you're talking about, Sarina—that it's—here's a book about tragedy and grief, but it's—there's something about the voice that just is—is fresh. And they're just—they're just stunning, just absolutely stunning. And I have gone and ordered all her books, of which there are—are many. So she's a new voice to me, and I just—I can't get enough of them. They're incredible.KJ Dell'AntoniaWell, here I am going to go back to the fiction summary read-y thing. I am very late to The Thursday Murder Club party, but it is joy. It is so much fun—really your sort of classic Agatha Christie stuff, but way, way funnier and more entertaining, with a dash of elderly spies. So we're on that theme. And then I also want to mention, just because I liked it so much—and I'm not sure I want everyone to read it—What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown. This could be your lit fic read of the summer. It's somewhere—but—but it's still a page turner. And I thought the premise was extremely great. Basically, it's: what if the Unabomber had also raised a young daughter with him in the woods on all of his theories, back when the Unabomber was living in the woods, and inadvertently involved her in his first kill before she got away? And now she's an adult looking back at what happened. And Janelle Brown is a Silicon Valley person. She's really steeped in this culture. She really knows this world. It's a really good book—plus super entertaining.Jennie NashI love it.KJ Dell'AntoniaThat's it!Jess LaheyI love it when we have a lot of good stuff, because there have been a couple weeks this year where we were like, I was just let down this time around. But yay, I'm loving this.KJ Dell'AntoniaAll right, I think that's it for us this week, kids. Remember, if you support the podcast, you get bonus content every week right now, because we are killing it. You might get Jess's Soup to Nuts series, where she is coaching a fellow writer on creating a nonfiction proposal that also will work with her speaking career. You can join me and Jennie on a weekly basis as we flail our way through the beginnings of writing a couple of books. And of course, on a monthly basis, we've got the Booklab, where we look at the First Pages of novels submitted by listeners. And if you'd like to submit to the Booklab, that'd be great. Jess will put the link in the show notes.Jess LaheyIndeed, Jess will. And until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

#454 Mental Wellbeing – Tools and Strategies Part 1 Two simple tools that could change everything. We've all been through tough times — sadness, anxiety, OCD, loss of confidence, grief, loneliness… and it's all “stuff” that affects your mental wellbeing. But here's the thing: most of that big stuff? It started small. In this episode of the Personal Development Unplugged podcast, I (Cloughie) guide you through two powerful, yet beautifully simple mental wellbeing tools. These aren't fluffy techniques – they're real strategies that help you: Acknowledge and neutralise uncomfortable emotions (instead of pushing them down) Interrupt anxious thoughts and looping inner dialogue Get clarity, create strategies, and take back control Transform worry into personal power and positive action We do the work together. Right here. Right now. These are practical NLP-based tools you can use any time life throws you a curveball – no fluff, just real results.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Patrick DeHeer, who shares his incredible 33-year journey in podiatry, from treating NBA players with the Indiana Pacers to performing life-changing surgeries in Haiti and the Philippines. We talk about innovation in podiatry, global medical missions, and why teaching the next generation keeps him inspired. We also explore leadership, international outreach, his invention of the Aquinas Brace, and why he's more excited than ever to lead the profession forward. If you're a podiatrist or healthcare professional looking for a dose of purpose, passion, and perspective, this one's a must-listen. “My goal is to leave the profession better than I found it.” If you're enjoying the Podiatry Legends Podcast, please tell your podiatry friend and consider subscribing.  If you're looking for a speaker for an upcoming event, please email me at tyson@podiatrylegends.com, and we can discuss the range of topics I cover. Don't forget to look at my UPCOMING EVENTS Do You Want A Little Business Guidance?  A podiatrist I spoke with in early 2024 earned an additional $40,000 by following my advice from a 30-minute free Zoom call.  Think about it: you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, and it's not a TRAP. I'm not out to get you, I'm here to help you.  Please follow the link below to my calendar and schedule a free 30-minute Zoom call. I guarantee that after we talk, you will have far more clarity on what is best for you, your business and your career. ONLINE CALENDAR Business Coaching I offer three coaching options: Monthly Scheduled Calls. Hourly Ad Hoc Sessions. On-Site TEAM Training Days around communication, leadership and marketing.   But let's have a chat first to see what best suits you. ONLINE CALENDAR Facebook Group: Podiatry Business Owners Club  Have you grabbed a copy of one of my books yet?  2014 – It's No Secret There's Money in Podiatry  2017 – It's No Secret There's Money in Small Business     (Un-Edited Podcast Transcript) Tyson E Franklin: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Tyson Franklin and welcome to this week's episode of the Podiatry Legends Podcast. With me today is Dr. Patrick Deheer, DPM from Indianapolis, Indiana. Now, if you recognise the name, 'cause it wasn't that many episodes ago, episode 373 when Patrick was on here with Ben Pearl, and Patrick Agnew. We were talking about Podiatry, student recruitment, research, and unity. So if you missed that episode. You need to go back and listen to it. But I picked up pretty early, , when I was talking to Patrick that he's had a pretty amazing Podiatrist career, which is why I wanted to get him back on the podcast. And when I looked through his bio and I saw how much you have actually done, I started to question how many podiatry lifetimes have you actually had? It's I'm looking through your BIO and I've gone. Where, how, where did you find the time to do all this? It's amazing. Patrick Deheer: Thank you. I get asked that question a lot, but I think it's just, I really love what I do and I have a hard time saying no. Tyson E Franklin: It has [00:01:00] to be because I picked that up when we were, did the other episode and you said that towards the end you said, I just love being a Podiatrist. Mm-hmm. And it was actually refreshing to hear someone say that, especially. How many years have you been a Podiatrist for now? Patrick Deheer: So I graduated from Podiatrist school at the Shoal College in 1990. I did a one year residency back then I'm from Indiana. I wanted to come back. All the residencies in Indiana were just one year. And then I did a fellowship with, which there weren't even fellowships after at that point, but I did a fellowship for a year after that. So I had two years of training and so I've been in practice for 33 years in total. Tyson E Franklin: Okay. I've gotta ask a question. Why Podiatrist? How did you get into Podiatrist in the first place? Patrick Deheer: Yeah, that's interesting. I went to Indiana University and I went to school as a pre-dental major and I was gonna be a dentist. And somewhere in my second year, I visited my dentist and I realised that was not a good choice [00:02:00] and, there were several things that didn't resonate with me, and at that point I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. So I was considering marine biology and some other things, and my counselor at IU actually recommended Podiatrist and I didn't know anything about it. And I was, had a, I was talking on the phone with my dad who played golf with a Podiatrist, and he said, well, I know Dr. Ralph Gibney, and he would, I'm sure you could visit him. I did and he loved his job. His patients loved him. He did surgery, had a normal lifestyle. I saw patients leave his office happy, like immediately feeling better. Yeah. He was very successful, just kind and generous and I was like, I can do, I could do that. That looks like a great career and I think. Being really involved with student recruitment, the secret sauce for sure is when a prospective student visits a Podiatrist, just like my experience was so many years ago. They see people who are happy, who love what they do, whose patients appreciate them, who they can help immediately. Feel better. And then, you have the [00:03:00] whole gamut of things you can do within Podiatrist, from diabetic limb salvage to sports medicine to pediatrics to total ankle replacements. So it really gives you a wide range of subspecialties within the profession. So you said you Tyson E Franklin: went Patrick Deheer: to Indiana University, is that right? Yes. Okay. Did you play basketball there as well? I didn't, my dad did. My dad was a very well known basketball player. I love basketball and I'm six foot five, but he was six foot 10 and oh geez, I'm not, I'm not as athletic as he was, but I love basketball. Basketball's been a big part of my life. And that's one of the reasons I was really excited to work with Indiana Pacers, which I was there team podiatrist for 30 years. Tyson E Franklin: I saw that. So you finished in 1990 and from 92 to 2022. You were the Podiatrist for the Indiana Pacers. Yes. How did you score that gig? Patrick Deheer: Well, there's a couple things that happened that led to that. One my mentor was Rick Lde, who was a really big name in [00:04:00] Podiatrist at that point in time nationally and internationally for that fact. He brought arthroscopy into Podiatrist. He was doing it unofficially. And then my dad, like I mentioned, was a big time basketball player. He was actually drafted by the Indiana Pacers in the late 1960s. Oh. And so they knew the name and they worked with Rick Lde and they wanted somebody in more of an official capacity than he had been doing it. And I was in the right place at the right time and I got along really well with the trainer, David Craig. And it just was a great relationship for 30 years. And I take it, you still go to the games? Occasionally. So, they made a change on the orthopedic whole team back in 2022 and they're like, well, we're gonna change everything. And I was like, okay, that's fine. I've done it for 30 years. That was enough. And they had a really nice on the court celebration for me where they recognised me before a game and gave me, I have a couple different jerseys that they've given me, but they gave me one with the number 30 on it to celebrate my 30 years. Oh, that's cool. It was really cool and [00:05:00] it was really fun working with professional athletes. There's a whole sort of nuance to that that I, a lot of people unfortunately don't get experience, but it is it can be challenging. It can be very hectic at times. There's, there can be a lot of pressure involved with it also but it's also incredibly rewarding. Tyson E Franklin: So as, as the Podiatrist for like. Uh, a basketball team at that level. What was it? Was it a a, a daily contact you had with them or was it something once a week you caught up with the players or they only came into your clinic when there was an issue? Patrick Deheer: More the latter, I would say, but I usually would see them at the beginning of the season, help with our orthotic prescriptions and evaluate them, and then as needed. Oftentimes the trainer would call me and ask me to either come to a game or practice and then occasionally they'd have the players would need something more urgent and they would come to my office. But it varied from year to year quite a bit on how much I did on just based on how much they needed me. Tyson E Franklin: Did you go along to the games when you [00:06:00] were the team Podiatrist at the time? Patrick Deheer: Yeah. Not all of them, but definitely some of them. And, they would, the Pacers are such a great organization. They actually had. Every medical specialty as part of their healthcare team and including like, pediatrics for the players kids. And so at the beginning of every year, they would have a a sort of a team doctor reception dinner, and then we would, they'd have a lottery for tickets for us for the games. They would have usually the general managers there and the coach and a player too. And we gotta interact with them and talk with 'em and hang out with 'em. It was just always really fun and the Pacers are just a first class organization and they were great to work with. Tyson E Franklin: What made you decide it was time to. Hang up the boots and not do that. Honestly, Patrick Deheer: it wasn't my decision. It was theirs. They were changing the whole orthopedic team, and yeah, and that's, that happens in sports and especially high levels like that. And initially I was a little bit caught off guard. I can't lie about that, but once I came to terms like, I've done this for a long time Tyson E Franklin: it's okay. [00:07:00] Yeah, I know because we have the Cairns Taipans where I live in the National Basketball League, and it was interesting when they first kicked off 20 something years ago, I was the Podiatrist for the team. Did that first two years. Then all of a sudden there was a change of coach. And they dropped us and just went with another. Podiatrist and we went, well, what the, and we're talking to the team doctor go, what happened there? He goes, oh, I had no control over it. This person knew this person and they've made that decision. I went, oh, okay. Anyway, it only lasted about five months, I think, with the other person. The next minute the coach was ringing up saying, please, we need you to come back. And I'm like, ah, I don't wanna do it now. And they're going, please. So we did, and we did it for the next 15 years. It was a long period of time, but we had a really good arrangement with them. Same thing, doing screens at the beginning of the year and we end up having a, like a corporate box at the game. So we were at every home game and we did a bit of a deal with them to actually get that, [00:08:00] which would be a lot cheaper in the NBL than in the NBAI bet. Yeah. Their budget would be a lot, a lot smaller too in the NBL over here than the NBA. It's crazy sports money over there. Yes it is. Had you worked with other sporting teams as well, or basketball was Patrick Deheer: the main sport you were involved in? Basketball? I worked with the women's. We have A-A-W-N-B-A team also, so I worked with them for a few years, not nearly as long as the Pacers but I worked with them. And then we have a college in Indianapolis called Butler University. I worked with 'em for a few years, but it was again, the basketball team. But I will say. Because of working with professional athletes, I do tend to get athletes from all different types of sports coming to my private office but now official capacity with another team. Tyson E Franklin: So with your career after you graduated and then you did your residency, which was one year back when you did it and you decided you were gonna stay in Indiana, what was the next stage of your career? Patrick Deheer: I've had a [00:09:00] interesting employment history. I worked, went to work for a large group where Rick Lundine, who was my mentor, was one of the owners, and then he left the group after about three years and then went to work for a hospital. So then I followed him and went to work for a hospital for a few years, and then we formed a multi-specialty group. Then I worked in that for a few years and I was like, I think I can do better on my own. So then I was out in practice private practice by myself for several years. And then about four and a half years ago or so the private equity involvement in medicine in the United States has really taken off. And it started in other specialties in medicine, but it hit, it was ha happening in Podiatrist then and still is for that matter. And I was approached by three or four different private equity firms that wanted to buy my practice and have me be involved with their company. And I enjoy, I sold my practice to Upper Line Health back then, and I've been part of that group since. Tyson E Franklin: With um, that transition into private practice, did you, did your practice cover all aspects of [00:10:00] Podiatrist or did you specialize in particular area? Patrick Deheer: I've done everything and I really enjoy all components of Podiatrist. My the things that I'm probably most known for. I'm a big reconstructive surgeon, so I do a lot of reconstructive surgery and I do a lot of pediatrics. Those are probably the two biggest things that I'm most, known for I'm also a residency director in at Ascension St. Vincent's, Indianapolis. And, but I've worked with residents my whole career. I've been a residency director for about six or seven years now. And but I've enjoyed teaching residents for, 33 years basically. And also you go to Haiti and do reconstructive surgery there. So, international medicine has been a big part of my career. I've been on 30 trips total around the world. I've been to several countries. The first one was in 2002. I went to Honduras. One of my former residents that I became really close to he was practicing in Little Rock, Arkansas in a large group there, asked him to go with them and he asked me if I [00:11:00] would join him. And so we went to Trujillo and which is on the eastern coast of Honduras. And, that was in 2002. It was a really kind of small hospital. There was about a hundred people on the, in the group that went there. Not all medical, but most medical we would actually take over the whole hospital. And it was something that just like, I just knew that was like me, like that was so, I just loved it so much and I had such an amazing experience that. I went back there twice and the third time I went, I actually brought with my daughter is my oldest child. She was in high school at the time and watching her go through that experience was probably one of my most favorite international trips. She worked in the eye clinic and just seeing her, see her experience and doing international medicine was really rewarding. Then I wanted to start to go to some other places, and then I stumbled on Haiti. And I really got involved with Haiti. I've been there by far the most, and started working in Haiti, [00:12:00] primarily doing Clubfoot. And in Haiti. I met Kay Wilkins, who was a pediatric orthopedic surgeon from Texas, San Antonio. We started working together on the Haitian Clubfoot project. I also, through my experience in Haiti, my first trip with one particular young man who I did surgery on. Who had a really difficult postoperative course. He was about a 12, 13, or 12-year-old boy who I did clubfoot surgery on. And after that first trip when I came back home, about a week later, I called down to the orthopedic surgeon who was covering our cases and taking care of the patients postoperatively. And we did several cases. I had my good friend Mike Baker, who's a Podiatrist residency director in Indianapolis also. And then we had an anesthesiologist from the. Hospital and Steve Offit, who's a Podiatrist who was a resident at the time, we went down together. So I called and asked how everybody was doing. We did maybe 30 surgeries or something, and they said Everybody's fine except for the kid. He had a really bad wound, dehiscence and infection we're gonna have to amputate his leg. And I said, well, [00:13:00] how long can you wait? And yeah, they said Could maybe wait a week or so. This young man, his name is Wilkin. He lived in the middle of Haiti and he had no paperwork, nothing. I was fortunate. I was in a fraternity at Indiana University and two of my fraternity brothers, their dad was our state senator, one of our state senators, and working through his office. In the Haitian embassy in the US we were able to get him a passport and visa. Within a week. There happened to be a group called the Timmy Foundation from Indianapolis and Porter Prince. They brought him up to Indianapolis. I got the hospital where I worked at that time to admit him. And I got a whole team of doctors involved, pediatricians, infectious disease, plastic surgeons, and we got his wound stabilized. Then one night we were going to do this big massive surgery on him and I fixed his other foot and then the plastic surgeons came in and they did a rectus abdominis flap from his stomach and connected it to fill in. He had a big [00:14:00] wound on his medial sort of heel area, and then they did a split thickness skin graft over that. We had to wait until all the regular surgeries were done 'cause everybody was doing it for and then he stayed in the hospital for about a month after that. And then there were some other people from a church who went with us too here. And one of them brought him into his home with his family and they took care of him for about three months while he rehab. And he was on the news, the story was on the news and in the newspaper. And then he some he became a little celebrity and, then some local people helped put him through a private school in Port-au-Prince, and he ended up healing both feet really well and moving on and living his life. And it was a long journey, but through that I really thought there has to be a better way of dealing with Clubfoot. So I started going to the University of Iowa and met Dr. Ponseti and I went out there several times and I got to know Dr. Ponseti pretty well. And I just loved working with him and learning from him. And he was the kind most kind, gentle man I've ever met [00:15:00] in my life. He was in his like 92, 93, somewhere early nineties. Oh, right. At that time, seeing patients and. A quick story. One of the most surreal nights of my life, the last time I was there, he invited me to his house for dinner, and his wife was equally famous in her profession. She, they were from Spain and she was a Spanish literature teacher, a professor. And so I go to their house and I'm having beer and pizza with these two 90 year olds who are incredibly famous respective professions. And it was just, I was just like, I cannot believe this. And then he asked me if I wanted to go up to his office and look at his original Deco Dega paintings. I'm like. Yes, let's go do that. That's, I mean, I still kind of get goosebumps thinking about that because , he is the biggest name in pediatric orthopedics, and being able to learn from him and spend as much time as I did with him was really influential in my career. And to still be performing at that age is incredible. That is incredible. Yeah. [00:16:00] His hands were arthritic at that point, but they were almost in the shape of the way he would mold the cast, the clubfoot cast on children. Yeah. 'cause he had done, the thing I loved about him is, he started. His technique in the fifties and everybody thought he was crazy and nobody understood it, and he just kept putting out research and research. In the sixties it was kites method. In the seventies it was posterior release in the eighties. Everybody's like, we don't know what to do now because none of this stuff works. Maybe we should look at that guy in Iowa. And they started looking at it as research. He just kept putting out research and they're like, this may be the answer. And now it's the standard of care according to the World Health Organization. And his story is just really amazing. I have other colleagues here in the US who spent time with him, like Mitzi Williams and learned from him. He didn't care about the initials after your name, if he wanted to help children and put in the effort to learn his technique and he wanted to teach you. And, he was such a kind gentleman. Like I mentioned before, I've never seen a [00:17:00] 90-year-old man get kissed by so many women in my life. People would just be so, I mean, these moms would be just overwhelmed with their appreciation for him and what he did for so many kids. So Tyson E Franklin: the young boy you were talking about before, who went through all that surgery and eventually you saved his limbs, did you ever catch up with him Patrick Deheer: later years? Yeah. I did. I went back several times and to the school he was at, and then the earthquake happened in 20 10 I think it was. I was, uh, I was signed up for this international mission board and I got called about a week after the earthquake in Porter Prince. And they said, you have to be at the airport and you have to bring your own food, your own water and clothes, and we don't know how long you're gonna be here. And so I had my family meet me at the airport and brought as much to as I could, and I flew from Indianapolis to Fort Lauderdale. And then I was in a small airport in Fort Lauderdale and I got on a private plane with two NBA basketball players in a famous football player [00:18:00] who were going down for the earthquake literally a week after. Desmond Howard Alonzo Morning in Samuel Dallen Bear. And so we went, we were on the same flight together and got into Porter Prince and the, there is like a filled hospital at the UN and a big tent. And I get there and they ask me what I do and I say, I'm a Podiatrist, foot and ankle surgeon. And they're like, what else can you do? And I'm like. I go, I can do wound care. And they're like, okay, you're in charge of wound care for the whole hospital. And so, and they're like, and these guys are gonna help you. And they had these Portuguese EMS guys who were there, there were people from all over the world there helping, and everybody was staying in the airport property, which was adjacent to where the UN was. And, they didn't speak any English. I didn't speak Portuguese. And but we would every day go around and premedicate all the patients in the hospital because they had really the, painful wounds, severe crush injuries, massive wounds all over. And then we'd go back through and I would do [00:19:00] wound debridement and do their dressing changes. And these guys helped me. We developed our own sort of way to communicate with each other. And I ended up being there for about eight days and sleeping on a cot with, no bathrooms available that, we just had to makeshift and eventually they got things set up for all the volunteers. And then I went home and through that I met, and one of my other heroes in medicine was John McDonald and he was. Down really the day after the earthquake from Florida. He was a retired cardiothoracic surgeon who got into wound care and he set up the wound care clinic that I took over. And then after I got back, John asked me if I would work in the wound care clinic that he was starting in Porter Prince and if I'd be in charge of the diabetic limb salvage part. And I said that, I said I would. So then I started working with him in Porter Prince at this Bernard Mes Hospital wound care center. So. Tyson E Franklin: Doing this overseas aid work, you must get a lot of enjoyment outta doing it. Patrick Deheer: I love it. I love it. It's not easy. My last trip last late fall was to the Philippines [00:20:00] and I had some travel issues. My total travel time to get to Manila was about 32 hours or so. And but you know, it made it worth it. The it was such a great experience Tyson E Franklin: do you normally go with a team of podiatrists when you. Go and visit Haiti. Do you have a group of podiatrists you go down with? Patrick Deheer: It varies from trip to trip. The more recent trips I've been on to Kenya and to the Philippines, I've gone with steps to walk, which Mark Myerson, who's a orthopedic foot and ankle surgeon, I've gotten to know real well from lecturing together and teaching together. And he started this nonprofit. And I think there, there aren't many podiatrists that are involved with it. There are a few. But he and I have really bonded and gotten to know each other and he asked me if I'd participate in, I really love how they set up their program 'cause it's very much educational based. And one of the things I learned from Kay Wilkins who I went to Haiti with is it's more about. Teaching and sharing your knowledge and experience instead of just what I call parachute medicine, where you go [00:21:00] in and you do 20 or 30 surgeries. It's really about teaching the teachers, especially if you can teach the teachers. Then it's gonna have a mushrooming effect. So you're gonna help, thousands of people instead of 10 or 20 people. Tyson E Franklin: So you are teaching other surgeons down there how to perform these procedures the right way, or? Patrick Deheer: Yes. Well, just, it's not so much that it's my experience in a lot of developing countries is. So for like, reconstructive type stuff, it's gonna be orthopedic surgeons. If it's more wound stuff, it'll be general surgeons. But it's, they just don't get the specialized training that we have. And so that's one of the things that we can bring is we have this knowledge base that they just haven't been exposed to. There are great, like orthopedic surgeons and do a lot of trauma for example, but they maybe don't do a lot of reconstructive flatfoot surgery or Yeah. Or any, yeah. Sarco or something like that where we can give them the, our share, our experience and knowledge and with steps to walk. I really love it [00:22:00] because there's usually five or so faculty and it's mostly foot and ankle orthopedic surgeons, and then myself and from all over the world. And the first day is. And it's all the orthopedic surgeons and residents from pretty much the whole country come in for this program. And so the first day there's a conference where we as faculty present the next day, they line up these patients for us to evaluate. So we evaluate them. They're actually interviewing us. Why we're evaluating, we're telling them what we think and what we would recommend, and then. The so that's on Tuesday. Then Wednesday and Thursday there are surgeries. And then Friday it's either like a cadaver lab or review the surgeries and it's just really great there for the surgeries, there's two faculty nurse, there's a lead surgeon and an assistant surgeon, and then usually two of the orthopedic residents are also on the case too. So there's usually four people on the case. It's really interesting since I have a strong background in pediatrics this year when we were in Manila, there were a lot of pediatric cases. More than half the cases were pediatrics. And the foot and [00:23:00] ankle orthopedic surgeons really don't do a lot of pediatric stuff. They're usually adults. They, usually it's the pediatric orthopedic surgeons who are doing the kids. And so they made meet the lead surgeon on all those cases which was really interesting. Tyson E Franklin: So are they different groups and organizations reaching out to you or are you searching for areas that you feel may need help? When Patrick Deheer: I first started, I was more me searching and trying to find opportunities. Now that I, my name is known people will approach me. For example, I've been working with a colleague in Barbados. She's a she graduated from Podiatrist school in England, and there are seven podiatrists in Barbados who are all non-surgical. And the country actually has a really high amputation rate. And one of the things that they determined, despite everything else that they're doing to try to help reduce that amputation rate, they just needed surgical Podiatrist to be part of it. And we talked at one of the APMA national meetings a couple years ago, and she asked me if I would come down to Barbados. And so I took two of my residents down a CO about. That was [00:24:00] about a year and a half ago and met with her and went to the hospital and I, I was like, yeah, we could definitely help here. There this things like, if a patient has a bunion, a diabetic patient has a bunion that nobody is fixing that, that then leads to an ulcer because it's such a bad bunion that could have been prevented. And. The problem, and this is pretty common in a lot of countries, is they really don't recognise surgical Podiatrist from a credentialing standpoint. And much so in countries like that, were under the English system, they have to change the law. So the government has to change the laws and a force in of nature. Simone McConney is her name, and she's been working with the government to try to give me an exemption so I can start coming down and demonstrating that we can influence the amputation rate and hopefully reduce that significantly. On that Tyson E Franklin: first trip that you just did, was that more of a reconnaissance trip? It was more to go down there and evaluate the area and what is [00:25:00] actually needed. You couldn't actually go down there and perform surgery. Patrick Deheer: Correct. We did see some, we did see patients at a diabetic center and did some minor things like some and things like that. But yeah, it was more, it's more about, and one of the things I've learned is and people ask me about international medicine all the time. It's not going down and saying, here's what I can do. It's about going somewhere and saying, how can I help? What do you need? And then if you can help fulfill the need. Then great. And really, and especially if that can be centered around teaching the local doctors and working with them. And again, it's not that I know anything that I'm a better surgeon than anybody there. It's just I have this really super sub-specialized training that they haven't been exposed to. And then I can share that with them. Tyson E Franklin: Yeah. I've had a few Podiatrist on the podcast who have done some overseas work and there was one Australian Podiatrist and he's been traveling through South America for the last couple of years. Not doing surgery, but just making up inserts or whatever he can get his hands on. And just [00:26:00] doing general routine foot care on people. Mm-hmm. And educating 'em about footwear and protecting their feet. And he's been doing it for a couple of years now and absolutely loves it. Patrick Deheer: I I mean, I've made some maybe not the best decisions. Like I went to Iraq twice in the middle of the Gulf War, for example. Not this. Up in the world. But and Haiti, I've been in Haiti at times when Haiti was in total civil unrest. But I love it so much that the risk is worth it for me to be able to make a difference in people's lives, but also to share the knowledge and experience that I have accumulated over my 35 years and to pay it forward. Tyson E Franklin: So over this period of time you've done a lot of work overseas and, but you've been on a number of different boards and associations. How important is it is it for you to actually be involved in the profession in that way? Patrick Deheer: Well, when I [00:27:00] finished my residency I was at our state meeting and I was complaining about the quality of the meeting and they were like, okay, that's fine. You can be on the CE committee now, the continuing education committee. I'm like, okay, I'll do that. But don't ask me to get involved in politics 'cause I'm never gonna be doing that. I'm gonna be more in the educational stuff. Look at me now. I'm President elective, at APMA and I've had several board positions and i've been on a million committees. And I will o once I got on the board for our state association and went through all those stages or positions on the state board I really started to enjoy the leadership part of that. I liked trying to help direct where the profession is going and in. My whole thing is to leave it better than I found it. My father-in-law was also a Podiatrist and he passed away about a year and a half ago and is mid eighties. He worked in my office until he is like 82 or 83 and I loved Podiatrist, but he really loved Podiatrist and people like [00:28:00] him. My mentor, Rick Lde. I can, Teddy Clark, who was the a president of APMA from Indiana. He was the first African American president of APMA Earl Kaplan, Dalton Glary, who just recently passed away. All those people paved the way for us who are practicing now, and it's our responsibility to pay for pave the way for those people following us and to continue to advance the profession. And I can really do that at a high level. Being involved in a national organization like APMA. Tyson E Franklin: With the national board in the United States, do you connect with associations in other countries a lot or you don't have much to do with them? Patrick Deheer: N not a lot, somewhat, but I do think there's opportunity. It's been interesting to lecture internationally, like at the International Federation for Podiatrist meetings the global health or the global Podiatrist meetings. Yeah, I'm gonna be the speaker next year for it. And, seeing Podiatrist [00:29:00] grow all throughout the world in the different stages that it's in, in different countries is really encouraging. But I think that we need to first work on the lexicon so everybody's usually in the same. Terminology and then start to, to set some like qualifications to what those things mean. I really think they're, the two terms that need to be used, especially on the international platform, are podiatrists and podiatric surgeons, because yeah they're totally different. And you know what the qualifications are for those, I have my own opinions about, but I think the standards need to be set. And then all the countries who want to see Podiatrist flourish within their country need to figure out a way to meet those standards that have been set. Uh, Feel free to share your opinion, tell us what, what, how you think it should be. Yeah, I mean, I think that to be a Podiatrist, it should be a graduate degree, not my, not an undergraduate degree. And then I think to be a pediatric surgeon, you should have a postgraduate medical educational experience, like a residency program. [00:30:00] And I think those are the two qualifiers. I think board certification should be part of that too to be a pediatric surgeon. But the word, podology is used a lot. Chiropodist has still used some in some places. Yeah. And some of 'em are just like almost a technical degree versus a graduate degree. So I think if everybody could start to agree on some standards and some terminology, then everybody can work towards a common goal and help each other. Tyson E Franklin: , Some part of that I agree. And other parts I can see how other people be going. It's gonna be so confusing to try and get it standardised everywhere. Yeah. It's even the UK system they've started introducing. And if there's anyone from the UK listening this, and if I'm wrong please let me know. But they've introduced like apprenticeships where you don't have to be at the university for the whole four years. You can be doing a lot of your education in the clinic itself, and you go to university at different times and they're calling it like an apprenticeship program. Which [00:31:00] is a completely different pathway again. Patrick Deheer: Right. And in, I think in Canada it's more like an undergraduate degree too. I don't know the speci remember the specifics, but I've lectured in Canada and I've talked to a lot of Canadian podiatrists over the years. But again, not a lot of Canadian podiatrists are doing surgery. Kind of varies from province to Tyson E Franklin: province. Well, in Australia we pretty much finish high school and it's an undergraduate degree. We just go straight in, do Podiatrist. Four years later you come out and you start working. Patrick Deheer: Yeah and may maybe that some sort of hybrid model of that would be great. I just think that. It's an evolving profession and it's such an impactful profession on the healthcare system for all these countries that can improve patients' quality of life, keep people walking, keep people active and healthy dealing with problems like. Diabetes and obesity that are gonna lead to foot problems and reducing the complications associated with those [00:32:00] systemic diseases can really impact the overall healthcare system for countries. So I think it's so important for Podiatrist to be part of that equation, but we, we need to establish what the standards are to really have an impact in those healthcare systems. Tyson E Franklin: Yeah, and even if everybody got together, had a big meeting and you're all agreed, it would still be. Generations for, yeah, for it to roll out completely, because you'd have people that are just graduating now, so they've got a 30, 40 year career ahead of them. Patrick Deheer: For sure. And I think the US has set the standard and I think that, people, something along that line with Australia and England and what you've done and Spain now too, looking at all those models and trying to find something that is everybody can say, okay, this is what it means to be a Podiatrist and this is mean, what it means to be a pediatric surgeon. And then. Work with the support the country's podiatric associations to try to work with their [00:33:00] government to, to make that happen. Tyson E Franklin: This is what I found interesting doing the podcast and what I've enjoyed a lot is where I've had Podiatrist from India, from the UEA, from Mauritius, uk, Canada, South Africa, so many different parts of the world. When you talk to 'em and you go through the processes, everyone goes through. There's a lot of similarities between a lot of countries and then, America is on its own in the way that they actually do things. Patrick Deheer: For sure. I mentioned I graduated from Podiatrist school in 1990. To see the evolution of Podiatrist in the United States, even during my career is really amazing. I'm really proud of where we've. Gotten to, we still have things ways to go to really get to where the profession should be, but I'm really proud of the progress our profession has made during my career. Tyson E Franklin: What would you say has been the biggest change you've seen over your 30 years? Patrick Deheer: I really think [00:34:00] that the diabetic limb salvage has integrated Podiatrist into hospital healthcare systems. And then that has expanded, into things like trauma and into reconstructive surgery. Even more so, I think like in the 1970s here in Indiana, there was only one hospital in the whole state that would let podiatrists operate in the hospital. And that was here in Indianapolis. And now to think that, we can admit our own patients and do total ankle replacements or take trauma call or I'm doing pediatric surgery it's just an amazing how far it's come and, to see that progress. I think a lot of it was led by the diabetic limb salvage component of the profession and integrating that, and that helped to integrate Podiatrist into just the healthcare system and it became a key player and amputation prevention. Tyson E Franklin: So it wasn't one significant moment in time where things changed. It was progression over that period of time. [00:35:00] Patrick Deheer: I think guys like Larry Harless David Armstrong, Larry Lavery Robert Feinberg, Lee Rogers. Those people have really help from a diabetic limb salvage part, integrate the whole profession, I think. Tyson E Franklin: I wanna move ahead a little bit. You invented a thing called the Aquinas Brace. Patrick Deheer: Yeah. So I was running to try to lose weight and I got poster tibial tendonitis and I didn't wanna stop running. And I was wearing orthotics. I was taking some steroid pills but it still was really hurting. And so I realised I had Aquinas like everybody. I needed to stretch, so I was wearing a night splint at night to try to stretch out my calf, and I woke up at two in the morning because they're uncomfortable to sleep in. I looked down, I'm sleeping on my side with my knee bent, and I'm like, this is a complete waste of time. Has to go above your knee, or this is doing nothing. And so that was the genesis of it. I realised the brace needed to go above the knee, and then I also realised the foot position mattered too, that you need to have the foot [00:36:00] supinated so that you can lock them in tarsal joint. And then all the force is gonna be in the hind foot. But also when you supinate the foot, you externally rotate the tibia, which locks the knee. You can't lock your knee into full extension unless your tibia externally rotates via the screw home mechanism. So, that's where the idea came from. I had a friend who was a sales rep. I told him about it and he goes, I know the guy that can help us make this come to reality. So the three of us formed a company called IQ Medical Ricky Heath and John Moore. And I. And then we got brought the brace to market. It was really a learning experience for all three of us. It, like anything took much longer than we thought and cost a lot more money than we thought it would, but it's pretty amazing to see something that you dreamed up in your head, come to life into a real thing. Did you use it on yourself and did you get back running? So this was, it took us about five years from, it really took about five years to get it actually in production. I kept [00:37:00] running though. So Tyson E Franklin: did you end up, being one of your own patients testing this out on yourself. Patrick Deheer: Oh, yeah, I was testing all the sort of different versions of it coming up on myself for sure. I have a size 14 shoe, so it's really pushing the limits on the size of the brace, but I was able to try 'em out as we were going through different ideations of it. Tyson E Franklin: And this is what I was talking about when I did the introduction with you. Where you've had a very successful Podiatrist career. You've been on so many boards and associations and held so many different positions. You're gonna be the next president of the APMA. You've done all this volunteer work overseas, you've invented the Aquinas Brace . with all that going on, what's next? You must have other things in the pipeline you're going, I'm gonna do. I've got more to do. Yeah. Patrick Deheer: I, my favorite thing that I do in Podiatrist is being a residency director. I love it. Okay. I have we have [00:38:00] 12 residents at our program, so we have four per year, or it's a three year residency, and I've become really close to the residents. We have a great program and I just love teaching. I, I love watching the residents develop. We just had a new group start a week ago. So watching 'em develop from July 1st when they start over three years to the June 30th of their third year when they graduate, and I've seen them out. We always have our graduation party in kind of mid-June and it's a kind of a running joke at our residency program that. I cannot get through my speech at their graduation party without getting very emotional because they become like my kids. And yeah I'm so close to them and I'm so proud of them, and I can see what they have to offer to not only their patients but the professional also going forward. And just, it really, it's really something that I love doing and I feel honored to be able to teach them. Tyson E Franklin: So when somebody does Podiatrist in United States, they go to Podiatrist [00:39:00] school, they finish? They get their degree. They've done an undergraduate degree beforehand, haven't they? Then they, yeah. Go to Podiatrist school. If somebody doesn't do residency, they can't work as a Podiatrist. Patrick Deheer: Right. They can't get licensed in the Tyson E Franklin: states Patrick Deheer: any longer Tyson E Franklin: without doing a residency. Yeah. So they do the Podiatrist school. Are there enough positions around the country residencies for everybody who graduates? Patrick Deheer: Yes. There are actually more residency spots now than students. Okay. That's good. Because I'd Tyson E Franklin: heard years ago that sometimes it was a struggle. People would finish and then it was difficult to try and find a residency. I mean, when I was going through it, that was the case. Yeah. And I take it all residencies are not equal. Some are better Patrick Deheer: reputation. Tyson E Franklin: Well, Patrick Deheer: they're all standardised. They're all three year residencies and they're all hold all accountable to the same standards by our governing organization, the Council in Podiatric Medical Education. With that being said, yes, there are some residency [00:40:00] programs that are the leading residency programs for sure. So you Tyson E Franklin: have 12 residencies spots in your program. So there'd be a lot of podiatrists if they really wanted to work with you. Do they contact you while they're in Podiatrist school and start reaching out that way? How do you actually select. He does nce. Yeah. So in, Patrick Deheer: in the US the, and the students during their fourth year rotate through different hospitals. Some, most of the time they're for one month rotations, some are for three month rotations. And it's a little bit of a getting to know each other. It's also part of their educational experience. So they're getting that practical experience and getting out of just the book experience from learning. So we have probably, around 50 to 60 students through the year coming through our residency program as externs. Somewhere between four and or so a month. And then the interviews for residency are always in January, mid-January. And then you rank the students how you like them and they rank the residency programs, how they like them. [00:41:00] And then there's a match that comes out in mid-May and then you find out who you match with. Tyson E Franklin: Okay, so it's not your decision on who actually gets the position. So it doesn't come down to anyone's personal preference that it's an external body that puts them all together. Patrick Deheer: Well, it's not so much an external body it's just you rank your top students and the students rank their top programs. If you pick student, a number one and student a picture, residency, number one, then you're gonna match and they're gonna be one of your residents. Tyson E Franklin: I get It's good to get some insight on how that process actually works, and it's also good knowing there's more residency spots than there are students Patrick Deheer: graduating. Yeah. And while they're here for a month, we get to know them, they get to know us. And then the interviews are part of the mix too. But really, while they're rotating is probably the most important part of it. Because I've had students who were number one in their class who wanted to do our residency, but. It wasn't necessarily a good fit from a culture [00:42:00] standpoint. We are very protective of our culture and sometimes maybe the, top students aren't the be the best fit. I've also had students who were number one in their class who are a great fit, who have been residents at our program too. But we are very protective over the culture. So we wanna look at the the perspective resident global, from a global standpoint and looking at them in the entirety of how they fit in the program. Tyson E Franklin: I think there's a fantastic point that anyone listening to this, even when you were just employing a team member, is you've gotta make sure they fit the culture of your business. Doesn't matter how qualified they are, doesn't matter how many other boxes they tick if they don't fit. It's always gonna be difficult, long term to make it work. Patrick Deheer: Absolutely. I talk to other residency directors and they talk about their challenges with certain, with residents. I never really have any issues with our residents. I think. Part of that is the culture we've established. And part of it is I have two chief residents that are in their third year. The third year residents, two of 'em are [00:43:00] chiefs. I rely really heavily on them. We work very closely. And then I have a program coordinator her name's Carrie and the four of us run the program together. And we all work together. And but everybody is part of it though. We're all, all, so. It would be 12 plus the program coordinator plus me, and we have a clinic, a Podiatrist who runs a clinic. So the 15 of us are all working together, plus we have about 50 podiatrists who are attending surgeons, who our residents work with. So we have a really. Big group of people that we work with, but our residents I, nothing really ever escalates to my level where I've gotta intervene. They just, they all work hard. They all come as willing, eager learners, and I always ask the new residents the same thing to leave the residency program better than they found it. Tyson E Franklin: Have you had anyone that's done the residency that it, they've got halfway through it and just went, this is not working out. We made a mistake. You're not the right fit. Patrick Deheer: Nope. [00:44:00] I, it's interesting I'm known for not being a big fan of fellowships. I think fellowships in the United States have needs to be reigned in. That's another year after training, after residency program are doing, and I think unfortunately, a lot of 'em have become, almost like a fourth year of residency. And fellowships really should be for really specific specialized training. Like if you wanna do diabetic limb salvage or you want to do pediatrics or whatever. But I tell our residents, if you think you need a fellowship because you didn't get adequate surgical training while you were at our residency program, that is my fault. I failed you. And so, in the case that you brought up, that would've been my responsibility. Not the problem of the resident. Tyson E Franklin: So before we wrap up, is there anything else you would like to talk about ? Patrick Deheer: Well, I think one of the other things you asked me about, what excites me now is I started, I invented a surgical a kit for Aquinas surgery for the bowel and gut. And I started a company with three of my sons. [00:45:00] So that's been really fun working with my sons. One of my sons also has a brace company where he sells AFOs and sells the Aquinas brace that I invented. But starting this company with my sons and working with family has been really fun. It some of my most cherished memories were working with my father-in-law when he was still alive and practicing. Even if he was just doing routine care, just hanging out in the office with him and talking shop over dinner and was fun. But I just, i'm really excited about the profession. It's been really great to me and that's why I feel a responsibility to pay it forward and to try to see that it's in a better place than when I entered it. And so that's why I put so much effort into it. I've been in charge of the student recruitment, which we talked about last time, which is another big, yeah. I'm working on right now and I'm really excited about that. And we're looking at expanding that into a branding campaign for the entire profession and getting all the key stakeholders in Podiatrist in the United States involved in that. And it's interesting 'cause osteopathic [00:46:00] medicine to that about. 15 years ago, and it had a really significant impact on osteopathic medicine. I think we can have the same impact on Podiatrist with a national branding campaign where we just elevate the awareness of Podiatrist so people understand what we do and understand that as a potential career for people who are in high school or undergraduate trying to figure out what they want to get into. And it's interesting, we work at a big, our residency's at a big teaching hospital and still their residents in general surgery or neurosurgery who don't really understand what we as podiatrists do, and our residents are interacting with them and say, yeah, oh yeah, we can work on that. And trying to save that limb from being amputated. And they're like, wow, you guys really do that? Tyson E Franklin: And that doesn't surprise me. 'cause nearly anyone I ever talk to when I tell 'em I was a podiatrist and you just explain. What you do, and they go, well, I didn't know you did that. That sounds really interesting. Patrick Deheer: Sure. And I do all parts of Podiatrist and I like all of it. I'm [00:47:00] not above trimming a 90-year-old lady's toenails. I mean, if I can trim a 90-year-old lady's toenails in a corn on her little toe and she walks outta my office and feels immediately better that's an honor for me to be able to help somebody like that. And I take that very seriously. Tyson E Franklin: Okay. Well, on that note, Patrick, I wanna thank you for coming back on the Podiatry Legends Podcast. Sharing part, Oh geez. You sharing part of your story. It's gonna be a smidgen of what you've done. You have done so much. This has been it's been a pleasure having you on here, so thank you very much. Patrick Deheer: It's been awesome having a conversation with You're such a great interviewer. Thank you for having me on. Well, thank you. I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna take, that's a big compliment. Thank you very much. You're really good.

Welcome back to the 240th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 240th episode we bring you the second instalment of our very special three-part Toronto Fringe 2025 Review Roundup. Join Jillian Robinson and Ryan Borochovitz as they try to blitz through the next fourteen shows they saw at this year's festival, unpack all of their thoughts, and commemorate this moment in local theatre history for posterity! Catch up on Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtBoqIHnLCI Stay tuned for Part 3, coming soon! TIMESTAMP NAVIGATOR: 0:00:00 – Intro 0:02:02 – #1 Clown Comedy with Victor & Priscilla 0:12:04 – Sweet and Sultry Burlesque 0:20:41 – Sex Goddess 0:29:44 – Have Fun Kids 0:46:27 – Siranoush 0:53:25 – Very Shady Arab Ladies 1:01:10 – Bob Marley: How Reggae Changed the World 1:14:04 – String of Pearls 1:32:33 – Fish Tales: Reel Stories, Reel Magic, You'll Be Hooked! 1:41:06 – Mutual Aim 1:53:47 – Quiltro 2:04:05 – Apothecary 2:26:37 – ALPHA 2:40:14 – Zeitgeist 2:59:54 – Sign Off Follow our panelists: Jillian Robinson – Instagram: @jillian.robinson96; it's not too late to see Jill performing in 500 Doubloons at the Hamilton Fringe Festival: https://hftco.ca/events/500-doubloons/ Ryan Borochovitz – Instagram: @ryanborochovitz [don't expect anything interesting over there]; if you enjoy his theatre thoughts, more can be found at https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitz; see also, his article about clowns at the Toronto Fringe, published in Intermission Magazine: https://www.intermissionmagazine.ca/features/fringe-clown/ Follow Cup of Hemlock Theatre on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatre If you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

Kiera and Tiff discuss chipping away at your goals and problems in small pieces, and how this can stack habits in a way that's not completely overwhelming. This can be applied to your personal life or your practice life! Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and it's a special day. Spiffy, Tiffy and I are back together on the podcast. You know Tiff, you love Tiff, you hear her with or without me, but today's a special day. You get both of us, one podcast. Tiff, how you doing today?   The Dental A Team (00:15) No, I'm so good. I just love when we podcast together, first of all, and I love that we really well. We roll with the punches well, and this morning has proven that. And this whole week has been a pivot and roll with the punches, and I'm excited for everyone to hear all of the wonderful words we have to say today.   Kiera Dent (00:25) you   Me too. And it is fun because it's funny when Tiffanie started the company, I feel like we talked to each other all the time. And this morning I was getting ready at 530 a.m. because I was like, sweet, I got a lot of podcasts. We're going to start at 6 a.m. today. It's going to be a great day. And I'm like, you know, I used to call Tiff during this time and we just like chat and talk shop. And now it's like, hey, let's catch up on the podcast. OK, it's like, how's life? How you doing over there? Even though we work together all the time, but.   The Dental A Team (00:58) Yeah   Kiera Dent (01:04) I think that that just shows the growth that we've been able to have. And it's interesting, something I will say is as you grow and evolve, make sure that you still stay connected to your key players. think Tiff and I have to now be very intentional. Like we call each other or we'll FaceTime each other or like I'll just randomly FaceTime Tiff while I'm driving with Jason, just so we stay as friends in a relationship because work I think can sometimes accidentally, we're so busy ships in the night, even though we're in the same company. So Tiff, good time to reconnect on the podcast. Hi.   The Dental A Team (01:17) Thank   Good   Kiera Dent (01:33) It's been a hot minute, great to see you. I think I haven't seen you all   The Dental A Team (01:35) to see you.   Kiera Dent (01:36) week, so it's great to see you.   The Dental A Team (01:37) That is so true,   we haven't, not since our leadership meeting on Monday.   Kiera Dent (01:41) and we had like one client call together, which I'm like, hey, it's real fun to be with you here. I'm like, see you later. ⁓ But no, it's truly so fun. And today, and I wanted to just, I think we're seeing it, it's actually one thing that I will say Tiff and I are doing really well that we haven't done is we actually are coaching mutual clients together. We only have a couple and it's been really fun. think Tiff, I feel like it's like our shake and bake, like stocked into Malo, like Tiff to Kiera, like let's just have a good time on it because it's not often other than events that we get to do this. But I think in,   The Dental A Team (01:44) yeah, straight.   Thank you.   Kiera Dent (02:11) coaching clients more together. I think you and I are starting to see this like really awesome pattern that you brought up of a topic of like this 1%. And I know you're obsessed in it and working out, which thank you because every day I think about you and I'm like, yeah, Kieran, just go move your body 1 % more today, like just 1 % today. And so I think in life, but let's also take it to practices and billing. Tiff kind of riffed us on the topic I did and we're just gonna riff for you guys today. Kieran, Tiff, stocked into Malone. If you don't know the jazz, well, you missed out, but.   The Dental A Team (02:25) Thank you.   Kiera Dent (02:38) Basically we're the glory days. That's what this is. It's a glory. It's a dream team back together doing our shake and bake, rattle and roll, talking all things dentistry. So Tiff, take it away.   The Dental A Team (02:48) Yeah, I actually, I think we all know the 1 % rule and we know the compound effect and we know like, we know arbitrarily that these things and these ideas are something we're supposed to do and that they work. And last year, I found myself in this space where I was like, trying to octopus arms a lot of different things in my life that I wanted improvement on. And I had like three, four or five, whatever it was things that I'm like, okay, I'll do a little bit here, I'll do a little bit here, I'll do a little bit here. And it's kind of like,   I was just talking to Erin the other day about like paying down debt, right? So like you're paying down debt and you're like, okay, I'll put a little extra on this card, a little extra on this card, a little extra on this card. And that little bit of extra actually isn't making any progress because the percentages, right? The interest on it is actually eating it alive. And you just get to the spot where you're like, my God, I'm not making any progress in anything. And I'm spreading myself so thin, I'm exhausted. And I found myself there with debt and, but with these areas of my life that I was like, I just want to   feel 50%, 100 % better in these areas. And I was giving a little bit to all these spaces and Aaron and I had a conversation. I was just like, I'm so exhausted. Something's got to give, something's got to change. And he's like, let's pick one. And so I was thinking, and then we did.   Kiera Dent (04:03) I think about your   plate overfilling. From the day I met you, had this image of like, you know how people say like their plate's really full? Tiff's like, no, my plate's full and I have like food. I don't know why it is, but it's like cauliflower, broccoli, carrots is what I've envisioned for you. Just sitting on the side of her plate. So it's like there, then she's got like her sweet potato and it's like on the place map, but it's off the plate. And I think that that's like a really good visual of who Tiff's been since I've met you and how I think.   All of us live our life. This isn't just a Tiffanie, but like whether it's the octopus arms or the plate over like literally, if it's been like cauliflower broccoli, like I just see like a big like hunk of broccoli on the side of your plate. I don't come with it all.   The Dental A Team (04:35) Yeah.   Yes, and I actually   had somebody in my life, I had a friend years ago, gosh, this was like, I remember the stop sign we were sitting at and I remember being like crying, like, gosh dang it, one more thing and I'm like, I can do it, it's fine, because I'm the person that's like, yeah, I can totally do it, I know I can do it, but what cost is it at is not something I always think of and he looked at me he said,   You are like the person at Thanksgiving, that you're just so excited to have some of everything, that you have your plate and you filled it with everything. So you've got your turkey, your mashed potatoes and gravy, and your roll and your sweet potatoes. And then you sat down and you're like, oh, shoot, I forgot. Like this plate, he's like, it's a mounds of food because it's Thanksgiving, right? Which is fair. We all do that at Thanksgiving. He goes, but then you forgot.   about like the pie and somebody else put other rolls out. And so then you like started shoving it under your plate. And he's like, that's your one, you just took a piece of apple pie when you already had pumpkin pie. And you said yes to this, which means you said no to the pumpkin pie because you can't eat both. And I was like, holy cow, I love Thanksgiving, that works. Like I get it. And so yes, that was me. And so again, I don't know how long ago was that? Seven, eight years later, nine years.   Kiera Dent (05:53) No. Five, six, seven, years later.   The Dental A Team (05:56) Like,   Holly, are you kidding me? It came up again. And then somebody else just said it in different terms. And he said, you know, like, if you could do 1 % better every single day in one area, that's your compound effect. If you do 1 % better in five areas, but you only had 1 % to give, you're trying to give 5%, you're going to go backwards in areas. Like, you can't, it just doesn't work. The math isn't there. He does math. Math is his jam. So he's like, the math doesn't, it's not math-ing.   So if you choose one area that is going to bring the most like happiness and joy out of all the other areas that you could easily give 1 % improvement, it's gonna snowball. And what happened, what I found, right, is that that 1 % in my health and my fitness, which is what I chose to focus on, did snowball. And so all of a sudden the habit stacking that I had going on in my health and fitness snowballed.   into those other areas that I was trying to octopus arms into. So I saw slight improvements in those other areas and I was like, okay, everyone, they're both right. It's fine. Thank you. But I started thinking about it today. It popped up today for me actually really strong. I don't remember this morning why it popped up, but it did. And so then when, know, Kara, you and I got on here and like, my gosh, like this is what practices do. This is what owners, business owners do this constantly.   Right? We go into something and we're like, gosh, I've got to be best at marketing. I've got to make money and have great profitability. I've got to be a great leader and I have to have an awesome team and I've got to train people to be leaders. And then we're octopus arms and like Thanksgiving plates say yes to everything, which in turn makes us say no to something else. And so I thought the most you've got octopus arms, you've got your plate. Like what's the most important thing you've got your, you've got your dinner plate overflowing and you look at it and you're like,   I'm probably not gonna eat all of this, right? I would love to be able to eat all of this and not like get the calories from it and not like feel like I'm gonna throw up. Like I want it all, but if I have to go by what's most important and start there, I'm gonna start with the protein and the vegetables. So when you look at your business, right? The protein and the vegetables are going to help my health. It's going to promote.   my muscle build, it's going to like positively impact the goals that I'm working for. If I start with the pumpkin pie, which is where I want to start because I want room for the pumpkin pie, it's a negative. I want it, right? I want the sugar, but like, I know that I feel like crap after eating the sugar. So if I am a business owner and I'm focusing solely on, I don't know, new patients, I only want new patients, but I haven't focused on making sure my team knows how to collect. I'm over here crying to my consultant that   Kiera Dent (08:21) Me Me too.   The Dental A Team (08:43) I don't have any money in the bank and I can't afford my consultant, but my, even my new patients, I've got 62 new patients who also aren't scheduling treatment. Right? So that's like the pumpkin pie. Whereas the protein is making sure we're making sure we're like focusing on the money. Right. And not to the point that we lose the patient experience. That's not my point. My point is what, how can we be 1 % better in our collections? Like, what are we missing? And I had a   revelation finally with a practice this week and I love her to death and I'm just like, yay, we got there because I'm like something's not happening. Something that should be happening is not happening because your insurance AR is beautiful. But over here, we still have almost $200,000 in AR. ⁓ How is it possible when your insurance AR is showing up as like $44,000? Right. And so like getting there, getting there, getting there. But the 1 % is what's something that we can do today to collect   part of what we're missing, right? What's one phone call, one extra phone call we can make? What's one person coming in the door that has a past due balance that we can collect today? Like how can we take that theory of that 1 % better that is so easy to implement when it comes to health, fitness and nutrition? We get it. Our brains are like, yeah, that makes total sense. Eat the protein before the sugar. I get it. I don't want to, but I can do that. But we have such a hard time implementing that in like   the other structures of our lives because it's just not, it doesn't feel as clean and as clear. And I think, Kiera, it doesn't feel as fun, right? Like eating the pumpkin pie is more fun. Marketing is way more fun than billing. ⁓ Hands down, I don't want to do billing. I want to do marketing.   Kiera Dent (10:18) Yeah. Exactly what I was thinking.   What are you saying? was like, the reason we don't go for the turkey is because turkey is freaking dry and pumpkin pie is sweet and fun, which is why people don't like to look at their numbers because numbers are like protein and it's not as fun. And I'm sitting here like shoveling down this nasty turkey that I know is like super lean, no fat in it. And I'm able to get my protein in. And yet when you talked about a tip of like, I think those business owners, this is where you cut out the noise and the elite business owners are able to cut out the noise, not go over the sexy and go for the things that are actually going to build the foundation.   And when you can figure that out, because like Tiff, you and I, it makes me wild when clients come through and they're like, I can't afford this. And I'm like, what do you mean you can't afford this? You have like 300,000 sitting in AR, like bada bing, bada boom, it's right there. And if we just collect before they leave, ⁓ my gosh, a revelation, you actually get paid for the work you did. And we're not like, hey Tiff, you want to pay me like six months later? Like, no, I did the work, let's get this paid. Why are we living in the 1900s? Like we don't have tabs, get rid of it.   The Dental A Team (11:02) you   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (11:23) but it's something so interesting that you're like, we're right. Like I want to do new patients. Like there's so much more fun and also it's a flex. Like when you go to a conference, like, here's my production, here's my new patient number. And I'm like, cool, here's my profit. Like it's not as fun and it's awkward. And you're like, cause also I don't want to tell people my profit. Cause I don't like, is that good? Is that bad? I don't know. So it's this weird zone of it's not safe to share publicly. It's a weird thing to talk about, but at the end of the day, it's the number one thing you're stressing about all day long. And so I think like you said, Tiff,   The Dental A Team (11:36) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (11:53) When you were talking, also thought like every team member could have their 1 % better. So doctors, if you want octopus arms, amazing. You can actually have it through your team members. Like right now, Tiff actually has her one thing in her department that she's focused on. has her one thing in her department she's focused on. Shelby has her one thing. Like they have other things, but it's like, if we can't get anything, these are the top three things that have to get done. And honestly, we went after profitability and like hiring consultants were like, all right, these are the two things. And it's wild when we focus on it, we laser focused.   The Dental A Team (11:57) Okay.   Kiera Dent (12:23) We cut the pumpkin pie, and it was for us, we didn't cut marketing. We were like, all right, this is going to move the needle forward. It's crazy how much more calm life feels. It's crazy how less stressed you feel. And then you're able to move things forward even faster. So I think it's a, and you said it doesn't have to be hard. Like this morning, I honestly thought about your tips, so kudos. This is probably why we were hanging out. Like I need a 1 % better.   The Dental A Team (12:27) Yeah.   So.   Kiera Dent (12:47) I was getting ready for the podcast and I'm like, it's gonna be all day long I'm podcasting today. I'm probably not gonna work out. And I was like, I thought about you in the back of my head and I was like, I could do five minutes   of stretching right now. That would make me feel way better going on to this podcast. It shows me that I honor my body. That's my 1 % for today. And yet my body already has felt better today. And I was in a better mindset on a, it was eight minutes that I did like yoga, stretching, making sure I took care of my body. Did some like quick like lifts for my shoulder.   It was very simple, it took no time at all. And it's the same thing of like your biller could collect on the patients. Like every patient who comes in, if we just collected those balances, you would feel like you're the richest person in the world. If we just called the high balances, just those people alone, that's probably like 50 % of what you need to collect right there. And that's very easy, but it's not sexy. And I think Tim, like, what is the psychology behind, like it's easy, but it's not fun, so we don't do it. Like eating protein dry turkey is such a great example of this.   The Dental A Team (13:26) Okay.   Kiera Dent (13:44) Because it's like, it's needed, it's necessary, and it's super great for you. But I'd rather do the pumpkin pie. Like, how do you discipline that? Or is it just a trained behavior? Like, I think about my sign in the kitchen of discipline equals freedom. I think about this all the time.   The Dental A Team (13:45) Yeah.   I'm   It's true. I think I want to think you have to get no matter what you have to get to the point that you've hit like rock bottom, right? Like it has to hurt badly enough for people to change something for beings to change something like a dog's not going to change its routine until it hurts badly enough going the same direction. Right. So I think no matter what, it has to hurt badly enough. So you have to get into that spot. But psychology behind it, like there's so much that it gets stacked up behind the   the things that we do every single day. And I know I had a conversation with my sister. If my practice is now, always call her out on stuff. But she said to me, she's yeah, she's my Craig. She said to me one day, this is like two weeks ago. Yeah, she doesn't listen. Craig might. So hello, Craig. We love you. We've talked about you for many years and you are a staple of our company. ⁓ But she said to me,   Kiera Dent (14:35) She's your Craig.   Okay.   Bye.   The Dental A Team (14:51) one, it was so simple. was like, there was this yogurt in the fridge that she had gotten. I'm like, Hey, don't forget you had this yogurt in the fridge. She goes, Oh my gosh, I couldn't remember if that was yours or it was mine. And I was like, heck no, girl, did you know you can get the same yogurt in this brand? And it's like, instead of 120 calories, it's 60 calories. Cause I'm like, I'm watching my freaking calories because I've seen that change, right? I've seen that difference. And she was like, Oh my gosh, whatever. Right. She gets tired of hearing me say it. I'm like, well, stop talking about food with me. Right. But then we get like,   ice cream and I chose actually like I chose this amazing dairy free. so good. I create that right. It's like whipped cream right coconut whipped cream and you freeze it and you put fruit in it. I need a sprinkle delivery system is what I call it. That's my sprinkle delivery system. It's literally frozen whipped cream and I pour sprinkles on top of it right. Well my sister tells me I don't want to have to say no to something if I want something I want to be able to have it.   And so she gets the loaded ice cream, which I don't care. I have no care in the world on what you eat, but that statement, I was like, oh my God, that's the statement. That's the thing that keeps us in the space that we're in because we've convinced ourselves that saying no to the pumpkin pie and yes to the Turkey hurts. That it's like, no, I should be able to do whatever I want. Cause that's the societal thought process that we live in. I should be able, and I'm like, okay.   But saying yes to that has changed something else. So I'm saying no to my fitness, to my health, my fitness, my mental stability, because sugar changes how I think, right? I know this. I know sugar. I know TV. I know social media. I feel different. My thought process is different after these things, right? So if I say, want to have that, I don't want to have to say no, I am saying yes to the sugar.   So I'm saying yes to the distraction in my business while saying no to the thing that's gonna push me forward and make me a better human for myself. Because if I say no to the protein, but yes to the sugar, my brain works differently and that makes me more angry inside than not having the pumpkin pie.   Kiera Dent (17:03) Totally. And as you said that, Tim, thought about like people always like dentists are interesting. And I know you hear this. I hear this. All of our consultants here. People want to know like what sets apart the elite practices, like what makes it. And I'm like, it's literally this discipline. It is what Tiff just talked about where you realize that saying yes to the protein and lifting weights is better for you, better for the company, better for long-term sustainability rather than the shiny or urgent issue that's hitting you right now.   It is so fun to talk about marketing. It is so fun to sit here and dream of all these great ideas. But the reality is if I'm not making money, then why on earth am I doing this? And you can justify it all day long, but well, because we need marketing because this will help us make more money. But I'm like, if there's gaping holes in your bucket right now, have the discipline. And I think that that's where...   The Dental A Team (17:29) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (17:49) I think I've been watching a lot of things and they say like some of the most successful people in the entire world are the ones who wake up early and workout consistently every day, no matter what rain or shine. does not matter. It's not always a guaranteed same amount of workout, but it's the discipline and the habit that they've created that they know when they say like we do what's most important for our body. We do what's most important for our business. Their body's not revolting like, but I want the sugar. It's like, no, when we say go, we go and you're training. This is why I think cold plunging people like that. They like these other things. It's like you're training your body that would you command and when you command your brain.   The Dental A Team (18:12) you.   Kiera Dent (18:19) you are actually going to execute on this. And I think if you could even take it in food or you could take it in small areas, what you're doing in your personal life is actually training who you're going to be as a business owner. so helping you see, and like, is me, mean, Tiff, shoot, I was the cake pop girl. Like the one was last time you saw me eat a cake pop. Like this is not something that we even do anymore because we're like, absolutely not. I know we're going to feel terrible. That's not fueling our body that needs to then be able to be sustaining.   The Dental A Team (18:28) 100%.   Same.   Kiera Dent (18:45) And I think it's like that maturity as well of business ownership and discipline. But I'm like, you don't have to wait through all the years. You can realize today, what's my 1 % in the true problem area of my business. we do in our mastermind, Tiff and I actually put together this survey that we have our clients do every single quarter in our in-person mastermind. And we asked the question, if your business could talk today, what would you say is the number one problem in your business? Whatever that is.   The Dental A Team (18:51) Mm hmm.   Kiera Dent (19:11) go fix that and be 1 % better. And I think Tiff, that's such a good question we ask. We ask about your relationships too, but I'm like, if you looked at that, that's the one area. And if that's truly your biggest pain point, which most offices it is, most people come to us for cashflow. Yes, it's cashflow, it's overhead, it's systems, it's leadership, but I'm like, usually the pain is on cash. I'm I'm freaking broke, but you waited until you were broke, broke, broke before you reached out for help. So if you're like teetering this, reach out now. If you're really there, it's okay, it still help you out.   The Dental A Team (19:31) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (19:41) But I think it's just a matter of like train yourself this discipline, ask yourself that question and then go to work and stay so laser focused. Because I think if you can train yourself to stay laser focused, ⁓ I asked a coach, she's working with billionaires and I said, what's the number one thing that sets apart the really high end achievers versus the others? And she said, it's focus. They have insane ability to focus on the problem that needs to happen and they don't get sucked up in the wash. And I thought that was so powerful and I think everyone can be that way. So those are kind of my wrap up thoughts of the 1%.   The Dental A Team (20:00) enough.   Kiera Dent (20:10) Collect like, and it's not hard. It's like collect one balance more. It's diagnosed one more thing that you'd normally put a watch on. It's we call one balance today that's a high end balance and we just do that versus like, oh, I got to do the whole list. No, you just do one. Cause the small chips will add up to the big thing. And it's the snowball effect. Dave Ramsey talks about with debt. You literally put all of it onto your hardest debt. Now you put all that money there. You snowball that you pay that one off. Then you take that amount, put it on the next one, snowball that make that. And this is the same thing in your business. It's habit stack.   The Dental A Team (20:38) And the hands.   Kiera Dent (20:40) But   I think more than that, it's teaching you to be a CEO rather than to be a flighty employee. Like my two cents.   The Dental A Team (20:47) I totally agree. And I think that 1 % is so perfect because what you just said, it compounds, right? It snowballs. So if you can have your billing department or whomever, your office manager, whoever it is, stop being so distracted by the easy things, right? I always say make your life easy by doing the hard things. Just because it's easy.   Kiera Dent (21:08) rewind that back. She just   said, make your life easy by doing the hard things. Like, I hope you heard that. You make your life easy by doing these hard things. Go off. That was Brill.   The Dental A Team (21:16) Yeah, doesn't   mean, thank you, it doesn't mean there are no hard things. It doesn't mean you don't have to do hard things to have an easy life. Like I live a fairly easy life in my opinion, but holy cow, have I done and do I do really hard things, but I don't shy away from it. And I get asked a lot, like, how did you get through that? Like I have gone through some crazy life traumatic items and people are like, how did you get through that? And like, I don't know, I just did. I just didn't ignore it. And I just...   pushed through and got to the next layer, that next level. And if you do that same thing, it starts to compound. You stack those pieces. So if you make one hard call today, one balance that you're like, shoot, this person's gonna be mad, get it out of the way. Because guess what? They're only going to be more mad if you wait three months and you're like, hey, six months ago.   Kiera Dent (21:58) You   The Dental A Team (22:07) you were here and like you didn't pay or we got your frequency wrong and you owe $500 on a crown that we thought insurance was gonna pay. They're gonna be like, I was six months ago, why are you just now calling me? So do it today and get it out of the way. And guess what? If they're upset, like have a conversation with them, it's fine. So then you flex that muscle, right? Like my boyfriend hates doing legs. Well, he sucks at legs cause he doesn't do it. So it's like, just do it. So it's easier. I hate working out chest.   just do it so that I can be stronger later. So yeah, it sucks making those calls, but it's not that hard. I sat in an office one day, I'm gonna tell this story, because I think it's just funny. I sat in an office one day and I hear, meh, meh, meh, this person won't pay. She says she has no money. She doesn't answer our calls. It's been here for two years. And I was like, girl, give me the phone. And I called and left a voicemail and I said, hey.   Kiera Dent (22:52) I'm   The Dental A Team (23:01) I really need to talk to you because your balance is about to be out of my hands and I do not want it to get to that next step. Please call me back like today. I really, really want to help you take care of this. Guess who called within 10 minutes. They have been calling quote unquote. I don't know if they called or not. I don't know. Right. Forever. They've sent statements. This woman has no money and won't pay. Guess who started making $50 monthly payments to keep that account from going to collections. I don't know where it was going to go. I usually just blame it on the next step.   guess who started paying and the doctor was like, Lord, three more calls, three more. I collected, sitting in that office, I was there to consult them and I collected on four large past due balances for that practice in 30 minutes. It's not hard. We just make it uncomfortable and you just have to get through it.   Kiera Dent (23:49) Mm-hmm.   Tiff, so much brilliant. And I think this is why we love consulting. We're able to help your offices see the frog they need to eat, see which one, because you can be like messy in the noise. And this is why having outside people, Tiff, like Erin and your other friend who point out like, hey, your plate's freaking full. Stop like shoving food underneath it. having octopus arms. Sometimes you need to see where you're overextending and overflowing to be able to make those changes. And so if we can help, like obviously Tiff and I love to do this, reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. But today go look to see what's my number one.   The Dental A Team (24:10) You   Kiera Dent (24:25) problem. Not the one that I want to work on but the actual problem. How can I get like 1 % better in this? Commit for the next three months and then let us know how that goes. A lot of us need accountability buddies which is where we're really great. It's always better with a buddy. It's better when I know Tiff's working out, I'm working out, we're able to like I got back on the Peloton Tiff because I got you back on the Peloton. Like we're both back on it. But this is where sometimes it's better with a buddy. It's more fun. So reach out if we can help you. Tiff, thanks for being on the podcast. I adore you. I love your analogies and girl I'm proud of you. Your food's not...   The Dental A Team (24:41) Yeah.   course.   Thank you.   Kiera Dent (24:53) 100 %   overflowing anymore. think you've got like on the plate. So kudos. You're making huge progress.   The Dental A Team (24:57) Thank you.   Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening. We truly love and adore each and every one of you.   Kiera Dent (25:04) We do. And as always, thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

In this episode Diana welcomes back author Dana Diaz, who discusses her second book 'Choking on Shame.' Dana shares her experiences with narcissistic abuse in her marriage and childhood, emphasizing the importance of telling one's story, forgiveness, and healing. Dana also talks about her upcoming third book, 'Rising from the Ashes,' which focuses on her life post-abuse and her journey toward healing and self-love. Discussing the complexities of dealing with unhealed trauma and finding inner peace, Dana provides valuable insights and hope for those navigating similar struggles. Listeners are encouraged to seek professional help and understand that it's never too late to start the healing process. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:48 Welcome to the Podcast 01:27 Dana Diaz's Story: Choking on Shame 02:41 Understanding Narcissistic Abuse 03:57 The Impact of Abuse on Life and Healing 06:25 Rising from the Ashes: The Sequel 09:50 Forgiveness and Healing 26:03 The Power of Writing and Sharing Your Story 35:37 Closing Remarks and Resources Link Tree Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Dana Diaz Part 2 [00:00:00] I do have a sponsor 7 5 3 Academy. Our martial art program specialized in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. Colli. We take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Our fitness community is friendly and supportive without the over the top muscle gym atmosphere. Our coaching staff are professionally trained with over 30 years of experience. Get started by claiming your free class voucher. So go to the link in the show notes. This is in the Phoenix Metro area, so reach out to Coach David and coach Eric over at 7 5 3 Academy. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic [00:01:00] violence advocate, Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Welcome, welcome to the podcast once more. I appreciate you coming back to hear some more of Dana Diaz. She is on her second book that she's been talking about, Choking on Shame. And again, she was on the podcast in season three, episode 1 53. So if you haven't heard, part one of this conversation, go back to part one. But it [00:02:00] would be really great to also listen to episode 1 53 'cause then you would get the whole picture of her story and some really great advice and help for those of you who have been with a narcissist or maybe you're dealing with one now. I'm not gonna go through her bio again. Everything is in a show notes for you. So without delay, here we go with part two, my conversation with Dana Diaz. And, I guess I should clarify that, what makes it called narcissistic abuse? It's just when a narcissist abuses you. But the difference is that a narcissist will enact multiple and all abuses in some cases versus, and I'm not trying [00:03:00] to minimize, but like in my childhood, I was physically abused and verbally abused and neglected in many ways in my marriage to this narcissist. Yes, there was verbal abuse for sure, which we discussed with the cussing 'cause he called me things that became as common as my name. I actually heard them more than my name. Um mm-hmm. There was sexual abuse. And yes, I will debate anybody who tells me that if you're married, you cannot be sexually abused. I disagree. If you are taking advantage of a woman that does not consensually want to be with you, uh, that is sexual abuse. Yes. There was financial abuse. So many examples of that. Legal abuse, the threatening to, call the authorities, creating the narrative of, you're crazy, you're unstable. I'm gonna call child services, so I'll have custody of our son if you leave me. I will do this legally to you. It's this constant threat. And then you add in all the other things , the [00:04:00] intimidation, the stalking, you're basically scared for your life. And I always say it's like, people call it walking on eggshells. I'm like, no, it was a minefield. It was a minefield. Yeah. Because I was stepping very carefully, very cautiously. Every time I opened my mouth, even my facial expressions, I could not say anything or do anything. And World War III would erupt because of my facial expression. So I was very careful, but it doesn't matter where I stepped, stuff was blowing up here, but I couldn't deal with it or process it. 'cause then something was blowing up over here and then in the midst of that, I'm trying to protect my son and shelter him from as much of it as I could, even though my ex was always trying to drag him into it so that he could blame me for our sons, unhealthy, witness of things that no child should ever have to witness or hear between parents. So it was, uh, yeah, it was something. And it's interesting because so many people read [00:05:00] Gasping for Air, including the owner of my publishing company. She actually at one point messaged me and said, I thought this was nonfiction. I said, It is. It was my true story. And she says, I can't even believe it. I said, well, you can't make this stuff up. Trust me. I would not have that kind of imagination. But it is a page turner. So it has appealed to people for entertainment that just like an exciting, uh, dysfunctional relationship read. But for the bulk of people who have been through this type of relationship, I'm glad to report that I get messages every day. Every single day of people saying that it gave them strength or it helped them to feel less alone because they thought it was just them or, you know, whatever it is. I've had people message me that they're finally leaving. They're divorcing, they're trying to get things in order or whatever it is. And I am certainly not [00:06:00] here saying, go get divorced, leave whoever. 'cause sometimes it's safer for somebody to stay. Um, it, it's just the reality, unfortunately sometimes. But I just want to give people, if nothing else, the hope that. There is something more to life and that no, you were not put here to suffer. And, it hurts my heart when I hear people say that. 'cause I, I remember feeling very much that way. But that's where the third book comes in. 'cause the third book is actually the sequel. Mm-hmm To gasping for air. We kind of went out of order, kind of like the Star Wars movies did for a while there. But again, I only intended to ever write the one. So gasping for error. Then we have the prequel, which is my childhood, choking on shame. So coming in March is rising from the ashes where it picks up. Right where gasping for error left off where I am leaving the driveway of the farm that I shared with my ex-husband moving out, moving on with [00:07:00] life. But I thought everything would be fine. I think when you get out of those. Uh, situations you think, oh, everything's fine. Nothing can go wrong. And, there's a lot of healing to do and things are a little messy while you're doing the healing. You don't necessarily perceive healthy relationships and healthy connections the way a healthy person would because there's this distrust and this anxiety, and we, there's so much still there that has to be dealt with. It's coming to the realization of those things. And as I said, coming to terms with even my mother who, went no contact with me before I even divorced with my ex, she opted to go no contact. 'cause she said that she could not be her husband's wife and my mother at the same time, and she was choosing to be his wife instead of being my mother. Mm-hmm. So that was heartbreaking. But this is my last resort and rising from the ashes, like, okay, I'm out of this marriage. Like, there's [00:08:00] one scene, it was hard to write in rising from the ashes where I'm actually on Christmas Eve at her house. I hadn't been invited, just my son had been, but I didn't get to see him Christmas day because of the divorce. My ex was going to have him. So that was my time with him was Christmas Eve and she took it. Without even consulting with me. So I ended up going with my son. Mm-hmm. I ended up on my knees on Christmas Eve in my mother's basement on the cold ceramic tile floor. Literally begging with my hands clasped, begging her just to be my mother to see me, to come to my wedding. 'cause I'm newly engaged, to this man. I've known many, many, many years and I just wanted her to be a part of that. There was no emotion stone face. And she actually walked away from me and left me there on the floor in tears on Christmas. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of [00:09:00] heartbreak, but it's a very happy ending. And, we talked about coming full circle before, but the ending of rising for ashes. I'll give this little snippet. 'cause I haven't really talked about the book to anybody. Not even my husband knows about it. I don't let him read books until they're published. But, the very end actually comes back to my mother that I said, after everything I'd been through my healing, the key to my healing was resolving that very first relationship I had in my life. I'm getting chills right now just thinking about it because mm-hmm. Everything in my life had to do with my mother rejecting me. But it took somebody saying to me. You can't reject your mother, you can't hate her. You can't have these ill feelings towards her for what she, how she treated you. Because if you do that, you're rejecting a part of yourself. And that just, that was as eye-opening as telling me I'm a child of God. Because then I had to look at her, uh, and the same person said that I had to put a [00:10:00] picture of my mother up in my house where it was prominence. It couldn't be hidden away somewhere. And um, the very last chapter of the book of Rising from the Ashes is me doing that. And it was not pretty. And I had some choice words that I cannot say on this podcast to say to that picture. But you know what? I still have the picture right here in my office and I look at it every day. I even say, hi mom. We have no relationship. She has nothing to do with me. We have no communication. But she's there 'cause she's my mother. And I'm gonna love her anyway because she was just a kid. And I forgive that I had to come to terms with knowing that she came from an abusive household. She had an abusive alcoholic father and endured terrible domestic violence. And she was just a baby when she had me. And she was a baby [00:11:00] who hadn't resolved her own unhealed trauma. So even though I was her baby and I expected her to handle me better and to know what to do and how to do it, she didn't. And I have to forgive that because I mean, what 16, 17-year-old girl that's in an abusive household would know what to do with a baby she doesn't even want. So, with that, I just encourage people to maybe look at, I'm not saying it excuses it, but I think mm-hmm. It's helped me get past the past. To look at it with a more loving heart than a resentful one. Because if you hold onto that resentment and that anger and that pain, you don't have room for the blessings and the love and the hope for the future and in the present, everything that's right in front of you. So that, that's essentially where we go with rising from the ashes. And I want people to hear that message loud [00:12:00] and clear. I'm really glad that you pointed out the forgiveness aspect. 'cause we talk about that a lot. How do you forgive somebody that's done some really horrible things to you? And they never repent of it. They never ask forgiveness or come around like we want them to. But I'm glad you mentioned, yeah, I can still forgive my mother in. An aspect of I'm not gonna live or live rent free in my head and ruin the rest of my life. I'm gonna move on with my life and help other people. But yeah, I respect that. Yes, she is my mother. And that's okay to say that. Yeah. Yeah. She's my mother, but I don't have to let her ruin my life. Exactly. And we move on. I mean, at the end of the day, we're all human. I said it before, but I say [00:13:00] it almost every day. We all make mistakes. And I can own up to mine and not feel badly about it. It's just sometimes you make a mistake, things happen unintentionally, intentionally, we screw up. But you know, we have to give that same grace to other people, because not everybody. Is at the same level of consciousness. Not everybody is faithful. Even my mother, when she got with her husband, when I was very young, actually, he didn't feel he was not Christian at all. So we stopped going to church. I actually started getting rides with my friends that were Catholic to, or I'd sleep over at their houses on Saturday nights so I could go to Sunday mass with them. But, even in college, I was able to drive, so I would go myself and I continued that. But, you know, it's about respect. We can't assume that everybody thinks like we do because they don't, not everybody comes from the same history that we come from. [00:14:00] Geographic differences, cultural differences. We're all so unique and that's a beautiful thing, but even within our own families, she has the right to make her own choices. Mm-hmm. She has turned herself away from God, but that is her choice. It is not my place for anyone else's to, force her somewhere where she doesn't feel that she wants to be. But again, that's between her and God. But, um, it's not my place, so I have to respect it, understand that she has the right, and I almost, got even to the point in my healing where I was like, you know, I actually have to appreciate even how she, stood her ground as far as her relationship with me. As terrible it is as it is to reject your own child. She had a very clear idea, of what she wanted in life and how she wanted to live her life. Whether I agree with that or not. She was being true to herself and [00:15:00] respecting herself. And self-love is not something that I had the privilege of, even knowing what that was for most of my life. And I still, every once in a while have to, give myself a pat on the back or remind myself I'm pretty okay. You know? 'cause I grew up with such terrible self-esteem and that first marriage didn't help at all. But my mother always had a sense of exactly who she was and what she wanted, and I did not fit into that. So, there's things I think we can learn from people like that and understand and just give them that grace that they're having their own human experience. And it may not be the path we walked, may not be the way we would've walked it, but that's what they're doing. And just have to love them through it. Pray for them, hope for them. But at the end of the day, we also have to do what gives ourselves some inner peace, which sometimes means, not having that relationship with them. So, I respect that about her. We have, like I said, we are completely estranged, but my [00:16:00] life goes on and I have her picture here in my office and I look at it every day and. It's all right. It's okay because God loves me again. I'm his child and he loves my mother too. Even though she's made mistakes, and hopefully one day she'll realize that, there is love in her life and that she is worth more than what she is allowed herself to have. And open herself up to that. But that is not my place to force her to do so. Hmm. I'm very fortunate that it's, my narcissist ex, we have no contact at all. Because we didn't have any children together, which looking back I am grateful for that. I didn't bring children into that marriage. Yeah. To suffer along with me, it would've been a different ending. But yeah, I'm able, to say that I've healed. Significantly, because I'm not in that relationship. Yes. With him, I don't [00:17:00] have to have any contact. 'cause when you get out of that, you have a better perspective as to what you went through rather than you're still in it and you're still dealing with this person and, they're trying to make your life, miserable. I was really fortunate that I just cut 'em off. And you have to, unfortunately, that's the only way, and I try to tell people that you can't, there is no healing when you're still in those circumstances. But it's impossible. I always tell people, I liken it to growing flowers in your garden. If you plant the seeds and then as soon as the flowers start blooming, you start giving them chemicals and poison and. They're not gonna keep growing. You cannot heal something. You cannot grow as a human being if you're still in that toxicity. And it's a shame sometimes that we have to cut off people that are biologically, family. But, I think that [00:18:00] the way to look at that and what has been my experience in life from a very young age is that, we're all part of God's family. And I cannot tell you how much of a difference it has made since, sadly not having contact with my abusive mother and stepfather. And I don't have contact with my ex either and many other people who have enabled them and sided with them in some way. But, uh, or they have cut contact with me, which is fine, but it's amazing now that they're kind of out of the way, like pulling weeds outta that same garden, now the weeds are gone. So I can see the other flowers that were always there and they're rooting for me and they're growing with me, and they're wanting me to grow it all and, and want me to be the beautiful flower that I can be. And it's just astounding to me the difference that having supportive, encouraging positive people around you, that what that makes versus being in those situations where every [00:19:00] single day I was diminished, insulted, ridiculed, demeaned. It just any negative adjective you can come up with is what that experience is like. But then you turn that around. You can't help but smile when somebody speaks positivity to you or encourages you, and then you wanna do that to others. And it has this beautiful domino effect because I know people, there's that thing called resting bee face. You know that? Mm-hmm. People used to say that I had that back then, and it wasn't that I was just. I was miserable, I was suffering. I wasn't, there was nothing to smile about. But, um, now it's, it, it's nice because I run into people sometimes that I haven't seen in years. And I know one person said, oh, it's good to see you smile again. It's good to see you laughing. Or, you know, one person, the best compliments I've had, they looked at me just physically, they're like, you look healthy. Because I had, I had gotten [00:20:00] so sickly physically during that. Mm-hmm. And especially towards the end of my marriage with my first husband that, yeah, even my physical health has improved with my mental health. So, and it's such an empowering thing to, to know like, okay, I actually had the choice. You know? Thankfully I was able to get out of it alive, so to speak. And everything's just really good now. Everything's really good. It's giving me that time and that space now to just tweak those little things. I call them like bruises that sometimes, somebody might say or do something and that bruise gets poked a little. I'm like, Ooh, that hurts. That didn't feel good. But I can kind of explore that a little more now and be like, okay. We still, I don't think the healing journey ever ends, but I think that, no, you know, we take those opportunities when our, when our bruises get poked a little bit to say like, okay, what do we still have here to work out? Where is that coming from? And then [00:21:00] deal with it. Because more times than not, it's just, it's the past. I always tell people it's never about the presence and usually when somebody comes at you as in confrontational, abusive, mistreats you in some way, it doesn't even have to do with you. It has to do with them. Yes, it's their unhealed trauma speaking to you. It's their issues with themselves that they just can't stand something that they see about you, that it's your light that's disturbing their peace. It's your potential, your achievement that's making them feel. All that yucky stuff they already feel about themselves. But, all you can do is love. I just try to remind myself, even when, believe me, there's, I always say there's the angel and the devil on my shoulders, and the devil just wants to tell 'em a few f-bombs and say a few things, but then the angels like, love them, love them. And I just take a deep breath and okay, this is coming from a source of pain. Remind myself of that. I know what that's like. It's not gonna be helpful. It's not gonna be productive or [00:22:00] get anywhere if we're gonna go back at 'em, with more evil words and nastiness. We're just gonna love, and some people aren't receptive. I had that experience last week and, a very, very nasty person, who told me the most vicious and awful thing that I won't even repeat. And I went back to them with love and said, I hear pain in what you said to me, and I understand this isn't about me, but I wish that one day you would. Find out how wonderful you are and love yourself enough to respect and value other people's lives as well. And she came at me with, an equally, just like her first message that I deserved what she said to me in the beginning. And that's that. Some people just don't wanna hear it. They don't wanna receive it. But that's not gonna change who I am or make me change my character. I'm still gonna come from a good place and remind myself there is evil in the world. There are people in this world that want to sit with their demons and stay there forever more. All I can [00:23:00] do is love them and pray for them. That's it. I can't, I just like my mother, I can't make that choice for them. It's kind of like drug and alcohol addiction. They have to be able, just like we had to when we were in our situations, you have to make the choice for yourself. Nobody could have told me, I had people say, you don't look happy, or, he's a real this or that, and you should get out. You think, I don't know that you don't think, I don't know. I was being mistreated. Of course I did. It's just not that easy to walk away, especially when you do have a child with a person, it makes it that much more complicated. But if nothing else, but legally and financially, it's a little more complicated. Yeah, there's just so much there. But, all in all, I just hope people know, know that there, there's choices, there's hope, and, and one of the biggest choices you can make, and kind of like how I said about me and my sister, is just to choose where you're coming from. Choose to come from a place of love because, putting yourself out there and behaving in negative ways, behaving in, ways [00:24:00] that basically, like they're acting, it's not gonna get you anywhere and it's not gonna solve that. This world is angry and full of hate more now than ever. And I don't think we need to participate in that hatred in that division. We need to actually turn that around a little bit and we all can make that difference by starting with the people in our house. Well start with ourselves and then your kids, your spouse, your whoever, your grandma, your coworkers, the person at church, the person that you run into at the library or the post office or wherever. Just be kind. Be kind. And maybe then they'll be a little kinder that day too, to somebody else. Hmm. I agree with that. I wanted to comment on what you said about the bruises, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I'm 52 and I had some triggers this past year and just brought up some, stuff from my past that I couldn't deal with the, the physical response to those memories. And for the first time in my [00:25:00] life, I'm going to a professional therapist and a psychologist and, I've had some peer counseling and peer groups that were extremely helpful that I'm, really glad that I have a therapist, to help me through these bruises or triggers that have come up in my life right now. I mean, I was married to my ex and I left in 2008. That was a long time ago, but it's never too late to get some help and to reach out to get help with hundred percent some of these things. I know my dear friend that I do mending this all groups with, she's a senior citizen now and she just wrote her book of her life after, so. Uh, her abuse was from her childhood and she had some memory loss, but, she's finally getting to write her book [00:26:00] now. And she's a fantastic writer as well. But what would you say to folks that they hear you and they see you writing these books about your experience, but they're afraid to write their story. They're like, people are gonna judge me. They're not gonna like what I say, or they're gonna sue me. Or what would you say to somebody that might be thinking about writing their story. Well, those are all very valid concerns and as somebody who is now publishing book three, they are still valid concerns. I am actually surprised that I have not faced any legal consequences, although, mm-hmm. On the other hand, it's very unlikely. In my, at least from my experience, I don't know many people who would like raise their hands loudly and say, oh, that's me in that book. You don't wanna claim that you're that person who did these awful things. But I tried to [00:27:00] be, I wrote my stories. I actually, gasping for air came from a journal that I kept when, it was towards the end of my marriage to my first husband, because I honestly thought that I was going to end up dead. And that it would be made to look like an accident or there would be some excuse, and I wanted there to be a record of what was really going on in that house. Wow. So the stories came out of that journal. So if nothing else, I tell people just journal, because sometimes I was joking with a friend this week, like some days my mind is like a bingo. Like that barrel, they spin in bingo, before they pull the little thing out. Like it's all this stuff just jumbling around six that sometimes if you just do, I've heard it called a brain dump. I've heard it called free writing. But just write. Just write everything. Don't monitor yourself. Don't feel bad. You let it come out however it comes out, even if it's not how you would normally talk. Say what [00:28:00] you have to say. Be angry, be hurt, cry, whatever. Get it out. Because the interesting thing is that. One, you'll feel better because it's like outside of you now. It's literally like extracting that pain from you and putting it on something else. It does actually make you feel mentally better, but you'll notice after a while when you go back, you'll start noticing patterns because visually you learn differently than mentally, if that makes any sense. So like even when I was writing Gasping for actually even the third book, all of my writing I'd read and have to revise over and over, and I would have a wake up in the middle of the night with. Oh my gosh. Like my brain just realized after I've written these stories, that this, it's kind of like connecting the dots, like a, an a detective or investigator trying to figure out a murder with all the strings on the walls pointing to this and that. It's like your brain starts [00:29:00] doing these, connect the dots, and you start making these connections and realizing things you hadn't seen before. Because when it's all in your head, it's, it is just jumbling around like that bingo barrel. Um mm-hmm. So it's good to get it out of you, but if you actually do wanna get into publishing a story Yes. They're, unfortunately, those fears are valid. They are always going to be there because as long as something is in print, if somebody does feel, even if you change their names, even if you change other geographical details, different things. If somebody can provide enough evidence that those circumstances or that person or whatever it was, it is actually them and wants to take you to court. They unfortunately do have a case. And so, I would definitely advise speaking to an attorney speaking to, different insurance companies. 'cause there are insurances you could get to cover to have that protection, for libel really, and things like that. Yes. I didn't know [00:30:00] that. Yeah, it's an expense, but, it's one worth having if you're gonna be speaking your truth. But the, thing that's been the struggle for me has been the judgment because surprisingly, the judgment has not even come from the people who have done awful things to me. It has come from their family members, which mm-hmm are and were my family members. You'd be surprised how many people just don't wanna believe you and we'll call you all kinds of things under the sun. And on the lighter end. 'cause you weren't there. They weren't where you were. They weren't there. They didn't see all that. They didn't. But the thing is, for them to believe you, they have to believe they love a monster. Mm-hmm. You see what I'm saying? Yep. That's pretty much it. My ex-mother-in-law, who I loved like a mother, 'cause she was a mother to me all those years, my mother was not my sister-in-law, who is my best friend. Even people in [00:31:00] my life, mutual friends, even. People that taught my son at his school that got word and read the book, and now for you to say those things about him or that, or even about my mother, whatever, in that book, I have to be the villain so that they feel better about associating with somebody who's capable of doing the things that I claim they did. So the judgment is honestly the biggest thing, but I keep, I just, I say it almost every day. God is the only judge. God is the only judge. You know what? And I know my truth. I know my truth firmly, and I can't let other people get me down. And let me tell you, strangers will say the most vile things, the most horrendous things behind an email or a social media post, or however they communicate with you, because they have that anonymity behind a screen. Yeah. And it is cruel. The things I have been told, such horrific things [00:32:00] and here I am, like I'm just trying to help people heal. I think I'm doing a good thing. And, the pushback is very strong. But what I've noticed and what I have to tell myself to keep putting one foot in front of the other is that those are the people, the ones who go through that great effort to go to my website and click on contact Dana to email me, or, put the post out or however they communicate their nastiness to me. I hit something, I hit some nail on the head. I triggered, I poked one of their bruises. That's what that is. And so in a sense, I look at those like, okay, I hear the pain. I wanna love them and help them, but they're not receptive right now. And that's okay. Hopefully that will come. But I gotta say, okay, good job, Dana. 'cause something I said or did, got to them. They can't let it go. It's haunting them. So maybe that's the propellant for change. Maybe that's the thing that's gonna compel [00:33:00] them, to change their circumstances or to take hold, take control of their life, and get that healing that they need. Because I wanna touch upon real quick what you said. I'm 49, let me tell you, I get so many people that contact me. I am actually, I just started this month, co-leading a women's group for healing from childhood abuse. And the thing that we get, the comment we get the most is that people that are our age, forties, fifties, sixties, even, I've even had a few in the seventies, that they kind of blame themselves. They shame themselves because, well, why now? Why am I just, how come it took me so long? I'm gonna answer that right now for you and I and for all these people that have said that to themselves. We were trying to live. We were trying to survive. Yes. Number one, when we got out, we had to go to work every day like we probably still do now. We were raising children possibly, which is not an easy [00:34:00] task. We had family commitments, church commitments, school, whatever it was we were. Life gets very busy. Life is very distracting, but I feel like when you get to where we're about in age, like for example, my son, he's gonna be 22, very soon. He bought his own house. He's moved up. When you start to be left with, yeah, when you start to be left with your own thoughts and you have time to reflect back and you're not in this constant hustle and bustle and have to and got and dah. Then you're like, oh my God, what the hell happened to me? You start to think back on the past, like, okay, and then when those things hit you, when somebody does say that thing or poke that bruise, you have the time and you're like, oh, oh, is that about, that was so long ago. And that's when you start really thinking about it. And that's when you have the opportunity and the time, to usually take the reins of your healing. So, if that's [00:35:00] any incentive, I think it's always good, whether you have a therapist or a group or whatever. There's so many, there's goat yoga, there's musical, healing, modalities. There's so many different options available to people right now that no matter what your niche is, so to speak, you can find something that will help you resolve all those feelings of the past, no matter what age you are. Yeah. Reach out to one of us. Yes. You all out there? We have resources. We know people Yes. Wherever you are. Even in other parts of the world. Yes. So I want to make sure that the folks know where to get your books. Not a problem. You can go to my website, dana s diaz.com, the links for the two that are out are there. And then the third, book will be on there when it comes out. Or you can go straight to Amazon anywhere. Books are sold online. I can't get the books on [00:36:00] shelves of the major retailers because of the content and the language. They, have all rejected the, application to have them on the bookshelves, but you can go anywhere online. I have it in it, it's on Kindle, so you can get the ebook if you like, having it on your phone or your iPad or whatever. Sometimes that's easier. It's more affordable. And if you are in an abusive situation still, that would be the best option because you don't want a book that says abuse in the title sitting on your coffee table. So, but it is available wherever books are sold online. This has been great to have you back on the show again and your invitation, is open door for you. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I know you're gonna write some more books. You're gonna have a big, long series like Star Wars here and, yeah, I'll eat it right up here. Just come back on, let me know if you have any, anything else to share with us. It's good to see [00:37:00] you. I, so related to what you shared, thank you so eloquently today. I appreciate that. And again, I just want everybody to know that there is hope. And there are people that are behind you. Even if you think you're alone, we're all with you and God is with you most importantly. Amen. God bless you. You as well. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

他是訂閱了 M 平方 5、6 年的資深用戶，並且在M平方的用戶觀點中，總共創下了40 多萬的瀏覽數，對於美、台經濟、週期投資、風險預警的圖表特別有想法，最後還開創了自己的頻道有著 22 萬訂閱數！ 本集邀請卡爾先生，來跟大家聊聊，他對週期是如何解讀的？美國真的有大債危機嗎？如何利用週期強化我們的投資？

In this part 2 of his conversation with Kiera, Morgan Hamon, co-founder and president of EAG Dental Advisors, talks about the action items doctors must commit to to stay financially savvy. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera, and this is part two with me and Morgan Hamon as part of EAG Dentist Advisors, where we're actually gonna talk into the tax psychology and the tax strategies and the tax tips. And I really just feel like this episode is so powerful. And as always, thanks for listening, and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.   Morgan Hamon (00:22) But no, you got to do the stuff. So if your accountant tells you, look, take a board meeting, document it properly, there's a proper way to do it, you got to do it. That's how we say the proper legal avoidance. your account comes to you and says, look, it's time to be an S-Corp,   Kiera Dent (00:30) Mm-hmm.   Morgan Hamon (00:39) because the profit is appropriate, you gotta follow the instruction. There's a procedure there and it's gonna save a lot of money on self-employment payroll tax if it's done correctly. You gotta listen, but you gotta engage. There's action items. And so we, ⁓ every September, I made a checklist. You know, again, Navy guy, right? I got a checklist. Log in, do the checklist. I call it our business tax savings maximizer. That's the flashiest, catchiest name I could think of. But like, log in and do it. That's the secret.   Kiera Dent (00:58) I love it.   you   Morgan Hamon (01:08) So, you know, for those listeners that waiting for the secret, that's it, right? We got to capture expenses as business deductions and there is action items for the doctor. It requires that engagement. And to circle back to where what you said earlier, like you can't come into the office and just fix it for them. They've got responsibilities on things to do too and that's the same with tax policy.   Kiera Dent (01:31) I thought that was such a beautiful way. And as you were going through the phases of grief, I'm like, oh yeah, I definitely lived all of those. And I think it does feel like a kick in the gut. like, this is worse than finding out like coal in your stocking Christmas morning. Like it's way worse. Like it feels awful. And you're in total denial that like, how is this even real? Like I live in America. Like, how is this real? I didn't know. And I mean, then you put on your state tax on there. And I'm like, for people who are in California,   Morgan Hamon (01:39) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (02:00) Like more than 50 % of your income could be going to tax pending upon your tax bracket. But I think Morgan is one of those things of also seeing, I know people don't want to hear, I'm going to be very unpopular right here and it's okay. It will like, you'll be in denial, you'll hate it. And then you'll be like, yeah, that's actually a really good point. Cause that's how I did it. Like taxes are a blessing though. Like we, we are so blessed to live in the country we are to be able to set the pricing that we want, to be able to do the work that we want to do that. like, I don't want to pay more taxes.   Morgan Hamon (02:12) you   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (02:28) but I can see me paying taxes as like my opportunity to be here and to be a business owner. And I think that's an amazing thing that we do get to have access to. But like you said, shoot guys, this is where the discipline comes in. This is where the engagement comes in. This is where the ownership comes in. I remember where I should like, I'll send you a picture. My husband and made this like vision board together, cause every December I would cry over taxes. And one of my goals, literally has like, it's a sign that says tax expert ahead.   Morgan Hamon (02:33) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (02:57) And I put that on my vision board because I'm I'm sick of this stupid stuff. I'm sick of Morgan telling me I owe this much money when I'm like, how is it even possible? I was like, I'm going to freaking figure this out. And I realized like, it's actually not that hard of a math equation. It's like, what is my profit that I get that month? What's my tax bracket? And let me go save that.   Morgan Hamon (03:00) Thank you.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (03:16) pay your quarterly tax payments. And then what I love is when, cause I put myself in the highest tax bracket, some years I'm going to be a little bit higher, some years I'm going be a little bit lower, like it's going to flush out. But if I'm saving my max amount that I would be having to pay in taxes every single month, I'm like, it's not that hard. Like you literally just take it, put it in a savings account, I put it in a high yield, so I'm even making money on it there. What's amazing is at the end of the year, I get my W2,   Morgan Hamon (03:32) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (03:41) like refund, if you will, because we realize I have over-saved throughout the year. I also put in there like buckets, because I realized for me, Morgan, it wasn't just the tax that was hitting me. It was the SEP IRA that I had to pay. It was charitable contributions I was paying. It was end of year bonuses. And all of that, it's not taxes. I think you get hit with all of those at the end of the year. It's like you're trying to put these, then you've got your Roth IRA that you're trying to like put those in. And it's like all these things are money and it's all accumulating at one time.   Morgan Hamon (03:43) Mm-hmm.   Okay.   Kiera Dent (04:11) versus figuring out how much you really are gonna pay, breaking it down into buckets, saving for it, and then I love it. My money at the end of the year, whatever I don't pay in taxes, because yeah, it's a big number, whatever, you're just going to pay it. That's part of having an amazing, thriving business. But then my slush because I over-saved, that becomes my refund, that becomes Keira's money of like, sweet, what are we gonna do on this because I've already paid tax. Now I can take that.   Morgan Hamon (04:14) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (04:37) Now I can go buy the things I want to buy. can put it in retire. I can put it wherever I want it to go. ⁓ but I have it to our peace of mind. When I get my, like this year, my CPA can be like, wow, Kara, you like, you have this. And I was like, rock on. Like you're not stressed about it, but that takes discipline every month. I'm literally like, Hey, how much do we have put that profit over in our savings every quarter? You're making those quarterly payments. ⁓ it is being strategic. is like.   Morgan Hamon (04:52) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (05:06) You were on a call the other day with some of our doctors and like, so Kiera, how like there are you when you do your meetings at your house? And I'm like, I crossed my T's down my eyes. I don't like this game. Like I do Airbnb. I look at all my rental comps around me. I saved that every year. It's in a folder. All the things are in the calendar with me and the other people. I have an agenda. I send that over to my CPA. I just don't like to play in the game of gray. But I think those are the pieces that help you. And then you just maximize.   Morgan Hamon (05:16) Thank you.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (05:34) But Morgan, I don't know. think I've just learned that's also part of the success tax of being successful. Like this is what it is. And I think that being a business owner, the discipline of saving your money and not spending it all because we think like, should get this cause I'm a high earner. No, like there's still tax games that we play. There's different ways to minimize it. But realizing like I need to be disciplined here. I think if you can be disciplined there, it also stems to your team. It stems to your leadership. It stems to your physical health.   Morgan Hamon (05:39) It is.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (06:04) It stems through   so many other areas in your life that I think like talk about a blessing of taxes that we actually get this benefit.   Morgan Hamon (06:07) Yes.   It,   I agree. And you do have to be, you do have to be disciplined. I know. I know. I also, I'll share a personal, I'll share a personal experience and kind of how I view tax because I very happily write those checks. You know, I write the same ones as our doctors do, but so back when I got out of the Navy, my family and I, so my parents, my brother and myself, we all chipped in and bought a real estate company.   Kiera Dent (06:13) Even though I hate it, Morgan, don't take me wrong. I still hate taxes. Morgan, tell me the secrets.   Morgan Hamon (06:36) back in 2005, real estate was happening. It was all in, all chips on the table. Well, guess what? 2009, everyone remember what happened in 2009? So, I mean, it was bad. It was horrific. 2009, my tax bill was zero. Zero. But do you think I was coming home saying, honey, look at this, zero, woohoo, check this out. I got no tax.   Kiera Dent (07:04) day.   Morgan Hamon (07:05) No, I'm sitting in a room and looking at the wall like how am going to face my kids telling them dad can't keep a roof over their head? How did my life get this screwed up? I paid no income tax, but those are not good times. That's not a period. And so right after that is when my dad and I started HD Accounting Group. But those days were like not my fondest memories even though I had zero tax liability. Fast forward a bunch of years, I've enjoyed a lot of success and I write some big checks to the government and I don't care.   My life is so much better. got kids college paid for, no debt. My life is good. And yeah, they are some big checks. I mean, let's face it, they're not my favorite things to write. Nobody likes it. But my life is just exponentially better. So when you're paying tax, you're making good money. I don't know, maybe boil it down to that.   Kiera Dent (07:55) I would agree with you.   which thank you for sharing because I think we, I agree. I don't want to have a year where I'm paying $0 to taxes. Cause that means that when you said zero and I'm like, we had a bad year. That's like a real bad year. Like as a business owner, you start to realize like that actually is not a good year. ⁓ But I think for that, ⁓ it's the discipline. And I found for me what's cut the stress out as an employer and as a business owner, not CPA, that's Morgan the world. That's not my world is when I have   Morgan Hamon (08:09) That's... ⁓   And now...   Kiera Dent (08:28) money and I'm disciplined and I save it because you still have profit afterwards. So it's not like you're not taking anything home every month. You're just being disciplined that that money for tax you save then I have the money and I'm like the pain I think comes from not having the money and the fear of where am I going to come up with the six figures when I've already spent it. I think that's more of why people hate taxes just like people hate root canals. They don't actually hate the root canal. They hate the pain leading up to it. We hate the pain of not having the money set aside.   Morgan Hamon (08:33) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Yes   Well.   Exactly. And let's tie this real specifically to the world you and I serve, our dentists. What really creates a lot of confusion and adds to the emotion is that, most of our clients have a practice note, a big one. And they don't always realize, look, when you make your loan payment, that is not a tax deduction, right?   Kiera Dent (09:22) not   just   Morgan Hamon (09:22) When you borrow the   money, we deduct everything you're going to buy, but then over time when you pay that back, you don't get it deducted again. So if your debt service on your practice loan is $100,000 a year, which we see often, you're paying income tax on it. So if you made $500,000 and $100,000 went back to the bank, you're living on $400,000 but paying tax on $500,000. And that is   That can be shocking and that's why you'll hear, and that applies to just both financial accounting and tax, that question of, my accountant said I made this much money. That can't possibly be the case. I just logged into the bank. What are they talking about? It's that debt service. That money's gone, but it's not a deduction. The other thing that makes it, any tax planning for dentist challenging is just the volatility in the month to month profit.   And I think there's a misperception out there, hey, look, my accountant is keeping my books up to date every month, right? And so if we get to the end of, let's say the end of September, and we can, hey, September 30, this is the exact profit, that does not equate to a granular, precise tax calculation because we have to, all your tax rate is dependent on total annual household income. If there's four months in the year that haven't happened yet, we gotta,   Kiera Dent (10:16) Amen.   Morgan Hamon (10:46) We got to estimate and it's subject to change. Maybe they were struggling in May and they said, you know, I'm calling Kiera, fine, I'm going to do it. We're going to get this thing figured out. And so then by November, they're killing it and everything's up 30%, 40%. Well, guess what's also going to be up? Your estimated payments are going to be higher, right? And so it's volatile.   and it's not an exact science. with any tax planning, those quarter estimated payments are trying to keep you in the hunt. And you alluded to that by having your buckets. Just realize there will be a settle up at the end of the year when it all fleshes out, because all we can do is estimate along the way. Try to keep it as close as we can. But I'm with you. I make those payments quarterly. I don't put my head in the sand because it'll just get bigger.   Kiera Dent (11:33) Well, I'm curious, Morgan, this is like Kara's nerdy side of me that I don't understand. So help me. And I hope this comes across respectful of the CPA world. To me, I feel like why don't CPAs at the end of every month, you know my profit, you know what I did that month. So yes, there's the estimated, but why not just give me like, the only thing I've thought of is maybe my tax bracket could change, but I'm like, why not estimate every month approximately what I need to save for taxes?   Morgan Hamon (11:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (12:03) So I can at least put that away monthly. Help me understand the psychology of that, because I don't.   Morgan Hamon (12:06) So, oh, trust me,   we've thought about this every which way. And I'm never done. I tweak our tax planning process every year. So to your point, like you could look at last year's tax return. So there's two figures to look at. There's your marginal tax rate, which is your whatever bracket, your highest, so the highest of 37.   But then there's what's called an effective, and that's just the average, right? If you look at total income and total tax, what's the average? So you could look at your last year's tax return and maybe your combined federal and state income tax was, call it 30%. So you could say, whatever my profit is times 0.3 is what I had to put away. So you could do that, but that's inherently going to be inaccurate.   because you will not have the same effective tax rate this year unless you have like a carbon copy and it'll be different. A lot of volatility. The other thing, it's a very equipment heavy industry as you know, and people do go buy equipment. And so if we, if say an accountant says, put whatever your profit is times 0.3, put that away, but then they get in and maybe they really do. Maybe their practice was... ⁓   Kiera Dent (13:20) Mm-hmm.   Morgan Hamon (13:31) you know, plum for eight ops, but they're equipped for five and it's time to fit those other three. Well, that's some really nice tax deductions there, like dollar for dollar. Well, that's really going to come down. And so that estimate's going to be out the window, like really quickly. You know, we've had times where I think of this story, something you don't tell stories. We had a client, this was a few years back, where they sent us an invoice. I can't remember what they bought.   Kiera Dent (13:38) and   Morgan Hamon (14:00) It was big, right? It was $120,000. They sent an invoice, not an email like I'm thinking about this. They sent an invoice. So we booked it. 120K deduction, did the tax plan, the works. Well, it comes time to do the tax return. And we're saying, hey, we keep asking for the loan paperwork on this claim. We don't get it. So finally, hey, look, we really want to get this tax return done. Can you send us that loan paperwork? And he's like, oh, I changed my mind.   I didn't buy that. And we're like, oh, let's put 120K of income back on top. You owe, I think it was like 40,000. And they're like, how can this be? I'm like, you sent us an invoice. Think how mad you'd be if we hadn't booked it. And I just tell that kind of story. Like equipment purchases in Q4, it's all out the window at that   Kiera Dent (14:37) Bye.   Yeah.   Yeah!   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Morgan Hamon (14:58) So   it's very volatile. So to kind of circle all way back to the beginning, just for some basic tax planning, I knew for me, like federal and effective, it's like 35%. And I just planned for that. And then there's a settle up. And if I owe a bit, it's because we killed it. And I need to actually celebrate that and not be cranky about it. And if I get some money back, maybe,   Kiera Dent (15:13) Mm-hmm.   you   Morgan Hamon (15:27) Maybe it just didn't end up as good as I thought or whatever. We're accountants. We don't have like, Xerox machines to write off. I got like a laptop. So, I mean, we're kind of limited on that. So, ⁓ those are some limitations inherent in tax planning for specific for the dental industry, the volatility and month-to-month profit and the high amount of equipment that's involved, which involves some instantaneous significant tax deductions.   Kiera Dent (15:32) Right.   and   Sure, no, that makes sense. And I think for me, it's always like, okay, there's profit, there's expenses. ⁓ If I'm gonna go use that money for expenses, then I'm going to take my tax amount. So obviously it's going to reduce my tax bill by that dollar amount. I can actually pull portions out of that money I've saved to pay for my equipment potentially if I need to. But just curious on that, because I've always, I'm like, it's a simple equation. Here's my profit. This is how much my tax bracket probably is. But also maybe you guys don't want them saving more than they need to because then people get angry.   Morgan Hamon (16:01) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   The truth.   Yeah.   Well,   people, it can get emotional either way, right? If they get a big refund, they're like, wait a minute, I could have had this in my high yield savings account. So we really do try to keep it as close as we can given the constraints of this kind three-dimensional moving target. What I have told doctors in the past, if we think about, let's say they've got an S-Corp, so on a reasonable W2, we got some holding through that W2, but they should still be taking the majority of the money home via profit distribution, okay?   Kiera Dent (16:26) that   Exactly.   Morgan Hamon (16:53) Have a look at last year's tax return. If you don't know how to find it, let us know. Keep it simple. If it's 30 % or 20, it's 28 points, okay, round it to 30. What I think every business owner should do, okay, at the end of the month or quarter, however often you want to do it, you look at how much money has accumulated in the operating account, what is my chosen desired minimum cash reserve, and whatever has accumulated, distribute it.   Kiera Dent (17:06) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Morgan Hamon (17:24) And take, let's say there's $20,000 extra in there, right? And let's just say your effective rate's a third of that. Well, take six or 7,000 and just put it in, like you said, Kiera, your savings bucket. And then save that so then when your accountant says, hey, it's time for your Q3 payment, you tap that money. And I think that's just a simple thing that...   Kiera Dent (17:42) Mm-hmm.   Morgan Hamon (17:53) habit you could get into, for me personally in our business, we always did that quarterly. And we'd take a distribution quarterly and I would just lop off the top, put it away and treat it like I had never had this and I would send it right off to the government. And that way I wasn't playing catch up so much. In the accounting world, I don't quite have the volatility that dentists have, but it's still, that habit pattern. It's that discipline of doing it.   Kiera Dent (18:20) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Yeah. No, that's super helpful. And Morgan, this is why I love to talk about it. Because it's like, hey, how can I refine? As we were talking about on that leadership, how can I refine? How can I make this just a little bit better? How can I learn a little bit more of the nuggets? How can I be smarter on my prep work for me emotionally? Because some people are just fine. They'll just like, I have a million buckets. I love my buckets. I love to know what this money is saved for.   Morgan Hamon (18:42) Hehehe.   Kiera Dent (18:45) My financial advisor teases me, my CPA teases me. I'm okay with it because I'm like, sweet, I know how much money I've got here. I know what I can buy here. My husband loves like just one big fund. And I'm like, but then how do know how much I can spend? Like I don't want to overspend or underspend. So everyone's different. So things are just going through it. Things are the psychology of it, the tax planning pieces, how the leadership and profitability connect to each other. Morgan, you guys are such an incredible CPA firm. I love that you're specifically only dentists. I tried to have you guys work with me you said, no, I'm not a dentist. So   Morgan Hamon (18:51) Mm-hmm.   You   huh.   Kiera Dent (19:14) I love that you are so niche. It was great, I loved it. But if people are curious, how do they work with you? What are kind of the broad services that people could see working with you guys that you guys do and how they can connect with you?   Morgan Hamon (19:24) So   our mission has always been and will continue to be supporting doctors by providing them the monthly accounting for their practice, providing practice profitability analysis reports and specific advising and tax planning ⁓ just for doctors. ⁓ If you want to check us out, is EAGDentalAdvisors.com is our website.   ⁓ Or just email me reach out to me Morgan.Hamon@EisnerAmper.com My business partner Cortney and I we do all initial consultations personally It's always been that way I love to meet new doctors learn about their situation tell them about what we do See if you see if it could be a good fit, but that's how folks would could go out and find us   Kiera Dent (20:09) Well guys, we have a lot of clients that work with Morgan. I think he's incredible. I love what you guys are doing. Morgan, it was always a fun time. Thanks for kicking it off with Top Gun, ending with like tack strategy. Thanks for sharing some of the tips. But truly super honored to work with you and love what you guys are doing for dentists out there.   Morgan Hamon (20:19) Alright.   Kiera,   I always enjoy our visits and look forward to each one. So I appreciate you having me. I really enjoyed it.   Kiera Dent (20:31) course. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on The Dental A Team podcast.

Our friends are back! Charlie and Maggie return to Writing in Progress as we reveal and react to Writer's Playground's 11th set of prompts. Not only did we enjoy some (read: a lot) banter and laughs for nearly an hour and a half... but in the most recent Writer's Playground challenge, MM placed 3rd and Charlie received an honorable mention, so they're insight is especially valuable. We try to learn from the best!Full disclosure (Justin here): I had the intention of releasing this episode while the competition was ongoing. However, enough life things got in the way... it became clear I would only have time to write a story *OR* edit/publish/post this episode last week. After DNFing the last challenge, I was determined to get something turned in this time, and trust me... I just barely did. So that's why this episode is releasing the day *after* the conclusion of the comp. We hope you enjoy it all the same, and maybe it can help the long wait for results to go just a tiny bit faster. :)Reminder to anyone who may be involved in the judging process for Writer's Playground: we do workshop a few specific ideas in this episode, so please don't listen until after the conclusion of the judging period.Finally, we need to plug our Patreon, we'd be so honored to have you as a member of our community. You can join here. Remember the tiers/perks are as follows:Good Samaritan ($1 USD/month)-Access to posts/surveys/updates on the Patreon Website-1 entry into giveaways-Good Karma for supporting small-time podcastersWiPpersnapper ($5 USD/month)-Access to bonus audio episodes, exclusive to the Patreon. (Currently 4 available). We aim to record about one 20 minute bonus episode per month.-5 entries into giveaways-Name shouted out at the end of all public episodes (if you'd like!)Episode Sponsor ($20 USD/month)-Whatever topic/service that is desired will be discussed and promoted at the start of an upcoming episode. (Books, Websites, Contests, Services, Social Media, Publications, Websites, etc.)-Appropriate links and descriptions will be included in episode descriptions and social media posts.-20 entries into giveaways.

Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, on a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be today, I am your host, Mike Hingson, and you are listening or watching unstoppable mindset today, our guest is Angela Lewis, and Angela is going to tell us a lot about basketball. That's because she played she played overseas, she has coached and just any number of things relating to basketball, but she's also helped athletes. She is an author, and I'm not going to say anymore. I'd rather she brag about herself. So Angela, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Angela Lewis ** 02:00 Michael, thank you so much for having me. It's so excited to chat with you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:05 Well, tell us a little bit about kind of the early Angela growing up and all that.   Angela Lewis ** 02:11 Well, I am six foot one inches tall. I've been this tall since I was 12 years old.   Michael Hingson ** 02:17 Hey, you stopped   Angela Lewis ** 02:18 growing huh? I stopped I've been this tall for 30 years. I know it could have spread out a bit. I could have gotten a few inches a year over, you know, time, but no, I grew really fast and stopped. But at six foot, one and 12 years old, I was really uncomfortable and felt out of place most often. And one day, a coach saw me and asked me to come and play on the basketball team. And Michael, basketball found me. I wasn't looking to play. I wasn't looking for a team, hoping to get an nio deal like you know, my kids are doing these days, because it's available. No basketball found me, and it really helped transform me into the person I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 03:03 How? How? So? Why was that   Angela Lewis ** 03:07 I was really I was very insecure, very uncomfortable. I felt really out of place. And basketball gave me this tribe of people who there were other tall girls. I learned how to work really hard. And although I was tall, people thought I was really good or I should be good. So I learned how to work through like not being really good at something, to ultimately playing professionally. And so that really sticks with me today, and learning how to just persevere.   Michael Hingson ** 03:40 Well you, you did really well at basketball. Obviously, I assume at least part of it had to do with height, but there had to be a whole lot more to it than that. You scored over 1000 points, lots of rebounds and so on. So it had to be more than height, though, right? 100%   Angela Lewis ** 03:57 definitely more than height, because I wasn't being I wasn't very good. I wasn't good at all. I was new to the game when I started, and so I missed a ton of shots. I had to learn how to work hard, how to get back up after being knocked down, and really not feeling good the entire time I'm playing. But learning, you know, listening to coaches, all of that played a big role in my overall development and willingness to get up early and get to the gym when no one else was there. That stuff pays off and   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 practice, yeah. Why is it that some people who score lots of points make really great shots are not necessarily good free throwers,   Angela Lewis ** 04:42 free throws. Shooting great free throws requires a different level of concentration. Everyone everything is stopped, everyone's focused on you, and some of it is just repetition and practice. There are people like Shaq who did shoot great from the free throw line. But of course. Incredibly, incredibly dominant.   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 Yeah. Well, he was one of the ones I was thinking of because it's, you know, I don't, needless to say, play basketball, but it just seems to me it ought to be reasonably easy for people who are great shooters to be able to do great free throwing as well. But that's not the case. And I kind of figured, and I think I've heard from a couple of other people, it's a whole different skill, and just because you're a wonderful shooter, it doesn't necessarily at all mean you'll be a good free thrower.   Angela Lewis ** 05:31 No, no, it doesn't. It doesn't. And Shaq was just a unique human in terms of his size and the size of his hand. So Shaq didn't shoot a lot of jump shots. He was often dunking on people or shooting layups or something a bit closer to the basket, where the percentages are even higher than at the free throw line. So it made it a little a little different in his case,   Michael Hingson ** 05:52 well, and you also and then had other people like wilt, Chamberlain, Kareem, Abdul, Jabbar and so many other people. And now what I really love is that we're starting to see that women are being appreciated. I mean, Caitlin Clark and so many other people are and Paige Becker, right? Who you mentioned earlier, Becker, and that is great to see, and I'm glad that that we're starting to see women come into their own, and I hope that that will include, as time goes on, better compensation, so that salaries are similar with male counterparts, because the people who are excellent at the game on from either Sex deserve it,   Angela Lewis ** 06:40 agreed, and it is. It's incredible, Michael, as you said, to see so much visibility and so much attention on women's sports, I think we hit a perfect storm for the women's game with three things, social media. So now you have these young women who have all these followings, who have all these followers, and it just makes sense for brands to align with them, to sell more products, but then also the n, i, L deal is the perfect storm. Now the players can get paid off their name, image and likeness, and it's going to end. The end the controversy with Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and the national championship a few years ago that just created so much of a media frenzy that it really has helped increase the visibility of women's basketball and other women's sports and for that   Michael Hingson ** 07:29 matter, yeah. Now are women will women's basketball, or is women's basketball in the Olympics?   Angela Lewis ** 07:36 Yes, yes, won the gold this year, Yes, yep. Has won the gold. The USA team is one to go. Yeah, consistently,   Michael Hingson ** 07:45 as it should be, we're we're not prejudice, are we?   Angela Lewis ** 07:49 No, not at all. No, not at all, at all. No, definitely not bias. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 07:55 right? Well, tell me, um, so you were tall at a very young age, as it were, but obviously you had, you had insecurities, but you dealt with them. Was it all because of the basketball or what? What really made you comfortable in your skin?   Angela Lewis ** 08:14 I think what made me comfortable is there were, there's who I was on the court, and then there's who I was off the court. My family, I'm so grateful to come from a family that's incredibly supportive. I had older brothers who played so although they would push me, you know, to be tougher, because I wasn't very tough. Michael, I'm the kid that looked at the butterflies and the squirrels. I was like forced to be aggressive and competitive. But my parents, my mom and dad, are both from Mississippi, and they grew up in a really challenging time, and so I think what helped shaped me was the humility and love from family   Michael Hingson ** 08:58 and comparing notes today. Who's the better basketball player, you or your brothers   Angela Lewis ** 09:05 me, by far. Okay, they may say something different, but if you know, if we just look at the stats, statistically speaking, you know what? Definitely win that one. What do they do today? One of them is, one of them is works at both of them work in education. One is like the associate superintendent of a school district in the St Louis area. The other one is a college professor. So they do, they do, well, I'm proud of them.   Michael Hingson ** 09:37 That's cool. Well, you know, but, but you, you, you did have supportive parents, and that's so important. I mean, I know, for for me, my parents rejected all the comments that doctors and others made when they discovered that I was blind and said, I ought to just be sent to a home. And my parents said, Absolutely not. And I totally i. Hmm, thank my parents for their attitudes, because it it really helped shape who I am today and why I'm able to function. So I, I agree with you, and I I'm glad that you had really good, supportive parents, because it had to be unusual for them to see a six foot one girl at the age of 12,   Angela Lewis ** 10:22 it was very unusual. My mom used to have to take my birth certificate with me to tournaments because people didn't believe that I was as young as I was. In addition, you know, I think Michael playing sports and anything that you're involved in doesn't just impact you and impacts your family as well, for those families who who choose to support their kids through whatever. So my family didn't travel at all, and we went to Memphis, Tennessee and Mount Bayou, Mississippi, because we have family members that live there. But it wasn't until I started playing sports where we started going other places. And so things opened up for not only myself, but for my family as well.   Michael Hingson ** 11:06 Well, it's always nice to have the opportunity to stretch and grow and experience new things   Angela Lewis ** 11:13 100% and it's not always comfortable, but it definitely helps us and shapes us differently   Michael Hingson ** 11:23 well, so you were an NCAA division one. You scored a lot of points. You clearly accomplished a great deal. What did you do that helped create the mindset that made that happen?   Angela Lewis ** 11:40 Environment makes a big difference who you choose to listen to. I feel like, when in any organization, whether it's a sports team or a business or even community organization, what created the mindset is listening to those coaches and those people who have already been through it, but also on like, when things are really hard, when there's preseason conditioning, or there's a report that's due, being willing to say, Okay, I know I don't feel like it, but I'm going to do it anyway. And knowing that when you make mistakes, I remember missing the shot to win a game against Cincinnati and being really down about it, but having a coach come to me and say, It's okay, you got to move on to the next game, the next play, being willing to keep going in spite of making mistakes, that creates that unstoppable mindset. It's not just you, it's the people in your circle as well who can help foster that for you.   Michael Hingson ** 12:36 So that's easy for a coach to say, but how did you internalize it and make that really a part of your psyche?   Angela Lewis ** 12:45 One of the ways that I internalized it, that's such a good question. Michael is visualizing like running through the play in my mind? Think watching the game film, because some of it, so much of growth happens. We can reflect on what didn't go right, what went right, and then be able to make those changes for the future.   Michael Hingson ** 13:10 Well, yeah, and I think introspection and internalization is such an important thing, and all too, many of us just don't, don't take that step back to analyze and think about what we're doing and why we're doing it and and how we're doing it, and what can we do better? And clearly, that's something that you did a fair amount of, and you got answers that worked for you.   Angela Lewis ** 13:38 It's essential in sport. I think that's one of the things that I carry over, is we were forced. I can't sit up here and act like I was introspective before, yeah, but by no means, it's you. You learn and train on what what works, and that's one of the things that really works. And introspection is is critical.   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 How would you take that beyond sports? I mean, clearly that helps you in sports, but I would assume that you would say it helps you in life in general, wouldn't you,   Angela Lewis ** 14:09 absolutely, especially when there's conflict. So for example, I had a situation in my family where I will where I essentially just broke down from giving so much, and I realized that, oh, once I once, I was able to step away from the situation and reflect, I was able to see how I could have communicated better. Oh, I could have created some better boundaries, or maybe I could have planned better. So, so there will always be tension. There's always the potential for conflict, but being able to reflect on it to make sure that you get better in the future is kind of how you can apply those apply that same process to life,   Michael Hingson ** 14:53 yeah, so on the basketball court and so on leaving this. Stats out of it. Do you think that people considered you a leader in terms of just being a team leader, as part of the team, but taking the lead? Or did you even think about that?   Angela Lewis ** 15:16 Oh, leadership is one of those, really, it's layered. So I think I was a leader, definitely a leader in terms of how hard I worked and I and I can say that my teammates respected how hard I worked at this age. Looking back at my, you know, 20 year old self, there are some other ways that I think I could have been a better leader in terms of communication, in terms of accountability, holding others accountable more, holding myself accountable more in some areas. So yes, I would say in terms of just the willingness to put in the work, I think I would definitely been considered a leader, despite the number of points that I scored, but scoring the points helped,   Michael Hingson ** 16:00 if you could go back and talk to your 20 year old self, what? What kinds of things would you tell her?   Angela Lewis ** 16:06 I would tell her. I would tell her three things. First, I would say, show yourself some grace. You already work hard like it's okay, it's okay to make mistakes. You are going to make mistakes. I took mistakes really hard. I would also say, get to know as many people as possible at your university and on your team and in the athletic department. What we know later is that relationships are everything, the relationships that you have, so be more intentional about relationships. And then I would also say, give yourself credit, because as an athlete, and you know, when you're pursuing something, you're never good enough, you're always pushing for the next thing. So I would have celebrated some of the wins a bit more.   Michael Hingson ** 16:52 Yeah, the the only thing to to be aware of, though, is to be careful and not let that, as you would say, go to your head and become egotistical about it. It's important to do. But there's, it's like the fastest gun in the West. There's always somebody faster,   Angela Lewis ** 17:10 yes, 100%   Michael Hingson ** 17:14 now, where did you go to? College?   Angela Lewis ** 17:16 St Louis University. Oh, okay, Billikens. So what made you go there? I went to St Louis University because it was close to home. That was part of it. There were a Nike school. I'm also like the brand of Nike, and it was a great institution. Academically, still is what is your family to be able communication?   Michael Hingson ** 17:39 Okay, that worked out. Well, yes, since being in office,   17:45 exactly so   Michael Hingson ** 17:49 you did you go beyond your bachelor's degree?   Angela Lewis ** 17:52 I did masters at St Louis University as well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:57 Okay, communication,   Angela Lewis ** 17:58 so, yes, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 18:00 and then what did you do after college?   Angela Lewis ** 18:04 After college, went to Germany and played basketball professionally. It was my first time traveling internationally and living abroad, which really changed the core of me.   Michael Hingson ** 18:16 Well, why did you decide to go professional for basketball. That's a little different than a degree in communications, but maybe not so much. But why did you, why did you decide to Go Pro? As it were,   Angela Lewis ** 18:30 it's a rare opportunity, very rare opportunity, to play professionally and to have the opportunity as something I dreamed of once I got to college, and then, honestly, Michael, I would have gone anywhere to play basketball. I love the game so much I would have gone anywhere, so I'm grateful that I had the opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 18:51 How did the opportunity to go to Germany and play there come about? Were you approached? What happened?   Angela Lewis ** 18:56 It came about because I was looking for an agent, and one of my college coaches, my college the head coach, Jill pazzi, knew someone who had an agent in Germany, and we sent her my game film. We sent the agent my game film, and she said she wanted to represent me, and she had a team there that wanted me to come out and be on the team. And so after I graduated, it was kind of it was very much a waiting game to win it to a person. And so I was really excited when I found out about the opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 19:37 That's cool. And how did you do compared to to other people on the team and so on? Were you still a high score? Were you still a leader or or not?   Angela Lewis ** 19:52 Michael Germany was really unique, because everyone on my team didn't speak English, so I did well. I. I did well. I scored double digits. Can't remember the exact average, but it was like around 15 or 16 points per game, and I did really well, and was a leader in that way. But it was completely it was a complete cultural shift because of the people from different parts of the world. So it took a different level of navigating than playing. Here.   Michael Hingson ** 20:21 Did you learn German?   Angela Lewis ** 20:24 I Yes, and no little bit yes and no a little bit, Michael, we were part of the contract. Was German classes, and I will never forget, I was in the German class with a woman from Russia who was on my team and a woman from Hungary who was on my team and I, the teacher, asked us to pronounce a word. I can't remember the word. All I remember is I attempted to pronounce the word, and everyone started laughing at me. And it was the first time in my life that I gained the sensitivity for people who attempt to speak another language, because it is really hard. I was so embarrassed, and I was like, Okay, I get it now. So my German is very minimal   Michael Hingson ** 21:11 well, and like a lot of things, if you had started to learn German or any language at a much younger age, you would have probably been a lot better off and more malleable and and learned how to adapt and have that second language, but you weren't learning it after college. So it was a different situation,   Angela Lewis ** 21:33 completely different. You're absolutely right. I did this basketball clinic in monies Columbia a few years ago, and although it was a little different than German, I was able to pick up on Spanish a bit more, and lived in Medellin, Colombia for a few years. But being immersed makes a difference for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 21:54 Yeah, immersion makes a makes a huge difference, because you're you're put in a position where you know you have to learn enough to be able to get by, and you   Angela Lewis ** 22:05 do, yes, well, you said that, I recommend it.   Michael Hingson ** 22:09 You said that going to Germany really changed your total core. How was that?   Angela Lewis ** 22:15 I knew that I would be okay anywhere I was in Germany before there was WhatsApp and zoom, and I was in Germany during the dial up days and the calling card days, yeah. And so being able to navigate the world at a time where you didn't have Google Translate really helped me be comfortable being in uncomfortable settings, because I went to university in the same place that I grew up, so it was my first time away from home in another country, and having to figure it out, and to do that at such a young age, really shifted who I was in relation to where I came from. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 23:02 so what did it what did it do to you? Ultimately,   Angela Lewis ** 23:07 ultimately, it allowed me to learn how to rely on others, people that I don't know, because I needed help just navigating how to get from one place to another. It created a sense of curiosity of other people, and a food and culture that didn't exist before, and a level of resilience. There were so many things that went wrong, like losing my bags, getting on the wrong train, getting almost being locked up. I mean, so many things that that went left in that experience that has taught me some resilience of having to continue to push through.   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 Yeah, I went to Israel for accessibe Two years ago, this coming August, and was at the corporate headquarters, and then a cab one day took me back to the hotel, but didn't drop me off at the front of the hotel. And so it was a totally strange area. And I remember even questioning, did they really drop me off at the hotel? But I realized that if I calm down, I can analyze this and figure it out, and I figured out what eventually happened. They didn't drop me off at the front of the hotel. They dropped me off at the entrance of the parking lot, which was on the well underground parking garage, which was on the side of the hotel. But the reality is that that we can do a lot of things if we just focus and don't panic.   Angela Lewis ** 24:38 Yes, ah, that's good advice. Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 24:44 go ahead.   Angela Lewis ** 24:46 Oh no, I was just gonna say being able to relax and control your emotional state really helps you make better decisions.   Michael Hingson ** 24:53 It does, and that's what it's really all about, which is also part of what. So being introspective and thinking about what you're doing is so important at night or whenever you can find the time to do it. And should find the time every day people should. But by doing that, you really look at yourself, and you look at how you react to different situations, and you you figure out, Oh, I could have done this. Or if I just did a little bit more of that, I would have been a better situation. We can teach ourselves so many things if we would choose to do that.   25:29 Yes, yes. 100%   Michael Hingson ** 25:33 well, so how long did you play basketball in Germany? I   Angela Lewis ** 25:38 played basketball in Germany for one season, and then came back to St Louis and got married, which is another that's another podcast, that's another interview, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:50 well, I hope that the marriage is working out.   Angela Lewis ** 25:53 No, it didn't. Oh, but I learned some No, it's okay. I brought it up. No, no, it's okay. I brought it up. But I learned so much from that experience as well. So I came back, got married, and started coaching, and I'm coached in high school and college about NCAA division one, and it was just an incredible experience to stay around the game and post the game and then teach and mentor.   Michael Hingson ** 26:19 Well, you clearly bring a pretty strong personality to the whole thing. And I'm, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of guys who wouldn't cope with that very well either   Angela Lewis ** 26:30 you're right. That's fair. Well, you know, since I saw every story, but no, I'm grateful for that experience in so so many ways.   Michael Hingson ** 26:38 Yeah, well, yeah, there's always lots to learn. So, so you coached high school, you coached College Division One, which is cool. So are you still doing some of that? Or what do you do now?   Angela Lewis ** 26:54 Now I'm not coaching on the court anymore, but I work with a company called Speaker hub, and I am head of operations, and so I lead a team of 24 incredible, incredible professionals who live around the world and help more people get on stages and share their messages. So I'm still coaching, but just not on the court.   Michael Hingson ** 27:19 It's not on the court well, but you learned a great skill.   Angela Lewis ** 27:25 Yes, basketball teaches so many, so many   Michael Hingson ** 27:27 skills, and do you still play basketball occasionally?   Angela Lewis ** 27:31 Every now and then I get out there and I get shots up, I don't play five on five anymore. Yes, I don't train to play and I just don't want to get hurt like a big fear of mine. So I'll still go out there and shoot, and I love it. I'll play course against anybody.   Michael Hingson ** 27:48 Well, yeah, there's, yeah there. There's a whole lot to it. And you're not working on being well in tip top training, in that way like you used to be, which is okay, but you know what you're doing, and that's what really matters. Well, you've coached a lot of people. What lessons did you learn from doing that? And what lessons did you learn from some of the people you coached?   Angela Lewis ** 28:13 From coaching, I've learned that you have to listen. Listening is the most important part of actually coaching, because different people need to be coached in a different way. Everyone gets held accountable, but some people may need more one on one attention. Some people may need more direct communication. Other people may just need you to listen to them and and guide them a bit more. So that's that's what I've learned about coaching, what I've learned from people that I've coached, I would say the there's someone I work with now, Maria. She's our head designer, and she she needs direct feedback about the work that she's doing, more than maybe some other people, feedback is important, but depending on who a person is, they need more feedback and guidance. And so Maria is someone who really loves that direct feedback, whereas some others are are able to work a bit differently. So knowing how to give feedback is something that I've worked on, and that, you know, Michael is learning coaching, coaching. It's always learning. Not only are you helping others, but you're learning from them and their expertise as well.   Michael Hingson ** 29:33 Do you find that there are some people who really ought to get feedback, who just refuse to accept it or refuse to listen to it at all, even though they probably really should.   Angela Lewis ** 29:45 There are some. There are some. When I, when I was coaching college basketball, there were definitely players who just didn't want to hear it, or they thought they had it all figured out. Yeah, so that part is hard in the workplace is a little different because, you know, there's. Compensation associated with performance. But back then, when I coached, it was a little Yeah, there were definitely some kids with egos,   Michael Hingson ** 30:08 yeah, and even with compensation and so on, feedback can help people improve, if they would, but listen,   Angela Lewis ** 30:17 true, very, very true. Thankfully, we have a great team. Everyone's pretty open.   Michael Hingson ** 30:22 That's good. Tell me more about speaker hub?   Angela Lewis ** 30:26 Sure, sure. So we have, we are a speakers bureau where everyone reaches out and pitches to different organizations on their own. So we have a membership where people will get access to over 4 million contacts. We have conferences associations. We have podcasts as well as media outlets where people can pitch and really reach out to share their expertise and about their businesses and grow their business through using public speaking to grow their business. Mm, so we we have a platform that we update literally every week that has the contacts and are able to reach out to search and reach out to people directly inside of our platform.   Michael Hingson ** 31:20 What do you think about this whole concept, since we're on the subject of speaking, of public speaking is one of the biggest fears that people have in this country and probably all over the world. How do we deal with getting rid of that fear? Why do we have it in the first place? I've never had it. I've never been afraid to speak, and sometimes I may not be the first person to speak, but I've never been afraid to speak my mind or to go out and speak. In fact, one of my favorite stories is that after September 11, my first official speech, if you will, came about because a pastor of a church called in New Jersey, and he said, we're going to be doing a service for all the people from New Jersey who were lost on September 11. Would you come and take about five or six minutes and tell your story? And I said, Sure, I'd be happy to, because we were living in New Jersey still at the time. And then I asked, how many people are going to be coming to the to the service, he said, oh, about 6000 so that was my first official public speech. As such, I was used to speaking in a variety of environments, because I had spoken to anything from company boards to IT professionals, and also did speaking at church and so on. But still, 6000 would intimidate a lot of people. It did bother me a bit to do that.   Angela Lewis ** 32:45 That says a lot about about you and your willingness to to share. I think some people are more comfortable, naturally comfortable to your point, others are. It's afraid of judgment. Fear of judgment is real. Fear of having everyone looking at you and hearing you and questioning your your your abilities, is something that people are are really afraid of.   Michael Hingson ** 33:13 So I think it's no go ahead.   Angela Lewis ** 33:17 I think it's something that people can develop more comfortable with with practice that can help, and also getting feedback and practicing in settings that are less than 6000 and gradually working their way up. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:33 I think, I think, though, least in my opinion, unless you're just a really scroungy individual and so on. Audiences, when you go to speak somewhere, want you to succeed. They want to hear what you have to say, and unless you just can't relate at all, audiences want you to be successful. And I've always had that belief. So that's probably another reason that I have never really been afraid to go out and speak, but after that 6000 person event, I still wasn't thinking of becoming a public speaker, but we started getting so many phone calls, as my wife and I both love to start to say, selling life and philosophy is a whole lot more fun than selling computer hardware and managing a hardware sales team. So by the beginning of 2002 it was clear that that a different window was opening and another door was closing, and it was time to go do something different. And so I've been speaking ever since, and it's it is so much fun to go to places. I've been to to places where event managers have hired me. People within the company have hired me to come and speak. And it turns out, as we talk more when I'm there, they're they were just so nervous, oh, is it going to go well? Is he going to be successful? Is this whole thing going to go well? And one of the things that several of those people have done is they've assumed. Interested me when we sell books afterward, I always like to have somebody who can handle the credit card machine, because I sign books and I brought my little credit card thing. So other people actually do that. And so some of the event, people have just stayed with me. And people come up and they say, what a wonderful talk. It's the best talk we ever heard. So it makes people feel comfortable. But those event people are often times much more nervous than I am, because, because I just feel nervous.   Angela Lewis ** 35:29 I love what you said, Michael, you believe that they want you to do well. And belief is such a powerful part of our lives. What what we believe, makes such a difference. And so the fact that you believe it and and you've done it so much, it brings ease, I'm sure, to some of the event planners over time, because they know that you're going to do well. One   Michael Hingson ** 35:51 of the things that I've learned is that I don't do well at reading speeches for a lot of reasons. The the main one is I like I've found that I do better when I customize the talk, and I'm able to use customization sometimes even right up to in the in the beginning of a speech, customizing it to get the audience to react as I expect them to and when. And I can tell when an audience is reacting positively or is is liking what they're hearing, just by the the subtle movements and the subtle noises that I hear around the the room, and if I'm not hearing some of those things that I expect to hear, then I will change something to address the issue, because I believe that when I go to speak, my job is to relate to the audience, to talk with the audience, not to the audience, and to do everything that I can to draw them in. And so one of the things that that I now tell people is being involved with the World Trade Center, and now we have a whole generation that that has had no experience with it. My job is to take them into the building with me and take them down the stairs with me and get them out with me, as if they were there. And people come up and say, later, we were with you all the way down the stairs, which is so cool.   Angela Lewis ** 37:16 That is That is really cool too. It sounds like you really care about your audience, which is something that makes a difference in terms of someone's comfort, if they think, Oh, this is a this speech is and I'm talking about, Oh, me, but you're carrying people along with you and actually helping them through your storytelling, which makes a difference.   Michael Hingson ** 37:39 Oh, it does make a difference. But I and you said something very, very relevant. It is all about telling stories. And I wish more people would tell stories. I believe, and I believe for years, having gotten a master's degree in physics, that one of the big problems with physics textbooks is they're so dry, they just do all the math and all that sort of stuff. If the authors, who are oftentimes very famous physicists would include a few stories in their books. There would be much better textbooks, and they would attract much more interest from people. But getting people to tell stories is just so hard.   Angela Lewis ** 38:13 Why do you think that is   Michael Hingson ** 38:16 they don't know how they don't necessarily realize that telling stories is a very powerful way to teach. It's just not what they're used to, and they're not enough of us talking about it probably   Angela Lewis ** 38:29 agree. 100% 100% we've we've been talking our whole lives, but telling stories and communicating in a way that connects with others isn't something that comes naturally for most. It takes practice. It   Michael Hingson ** 38:43 takes practice. So it does I believe that the best salespeople in the world are people who tell stories, because when you're talking about a product, but let's say it's a it's a product that a customer really should have, if you can relate to them and with them by telling stories of successes with other companies, or how other companies have used it, or other things that you can determine are the kinds of things that would be interesting to whoever you're selling to, you have a much better chance to actually be successful and Make make the sale that you want to make.   Angela Lewis ** 39:22 Yes, absolutely, we've all heard Yeah, Oh, nope, sorry, you go   Michael Hingson ** 39:27 ahead. No, it's just insane, which is another way of saying, sales is all about storytelling. But go ahead.   Angela Lewis ** 39:34 I was just gonna agree. I'm just agreeing with you on that. If we can get people to really understand and put themselves in in the situation, it makes a difference in their ability to to feel like you understand them and that you can connect and relate,   Michael Hingson ** 39:51 right? And that's what you got to do, and it can be a very positive tool if you do. It right? And not everybody will tell stories in exactly the same way, but that's okay, but you still can learn how to tell stories so that whoever you're talking with can relate to it, and that's what it's about.   Angela Lewis ** 40:13 It absolutely, yeah, absolutely is.   Michael Hingson ** 40:17 Well, so how did you get involved with Speaker hub?   Angela Lewis ** 40:21 I got involved with Speaker hub because I had a PR agency a few years ago, and I was our agency was helping people get on stages, but we were kind of but an agency where we did the pitching for our customers, and we and I built a team and hired people and put systems and processes in place, and the owner of speaker hub asked if our team could basically merge with the company. We weren't speaker hub before the company was called Pitch dB, and we and I built an agency using the software of pitch dB, and our agency was asked to basically merge, because we have the team, we have the operations, and he was great at marketing, is great at marketing and sales. And so our team rolled into this other company. So and then we purchased speaker hub, about eight months later, and so speaker hub, so our team helped grow speaker hub,   Michael Hingson ** 41:27 and how many clients does speaker hub have today?   Angela Lewis ** 41:32 We have over 60,000 people that use our platform. And so speaker hub asked, when we acquired speaker hub, there was Speaker hub was only a speaker page. So for example, Michael like LinkedIn, you can sign up, you can create a profile, and it has all of your information around your speaking topics, your background, your bio. And then we added the this software that allows people to reach out to different organizations, conferences and associations and media outlets. And so over 60,000 profiles are on speaker, hub of speakers from around the world. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 42:14 And people find it useful, and it's been very successful for them to find engagements and speak.   Angela Lewis ** 42:21 Yes. Yes. There are two amazing things that have happened today. We have customer calls every single day at noon Eastern where people can hop on and learn. We had someone who is an event organizer who came on the call today to let us know about an event that he has coming up, that he's looking for speakers. So there's the organizer side, where organizers are looking and then there's the other side where people are actually pitching and reaching out. So people are getting books. Someone told us today that she got booked for a conference in Kenya, and they're going to all expenses paid to Kenya for her to come out and speak at this conference. So it's wonderful to see people   Michael Hingson ** 43:05 opportunities. Yeah, that's exciting to see that kind of thing happening. Well, you have also written books. Tell me about Tell me about your books.   Angela Lewis ** 43:17 My first book is called The Game Changing assist simple ways to choose success. This book uses the framework of the six vs for success, having a vision, choosing your voices that you listen to, understanding the values to get to that vision, how to make it out of the valley, reaching the point of victory and volunteering. And so that book really takes is for young women to take them on a journey through my experiences, to learn about how to accomplish their goals in life using those six principles.   Michael Hingson ** 43:55 And even though it was written with young women in in mind, just on principle, out of curiosity, do you find that men read it as   Angela Lewis ** 44:03 well? Yes, it's applicable for everyone. At that the time I wrote the book, I was doing a lot of coaching and training young women and running girls groups. So that's why that that group of people was the target. But absolutely, those principles can transfer to anyone.   Michael Hingson ** 44:23 That's cool. So when did you write that one? When was that one?   Angela Lewis ** 44:27 It was released in 2013   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 Oh, okay, then what?   Angela Lewis ** 44:32 Then? Post moves the female athlete's guide to dominate life after college. That book is about mentoring, a lot of success in life for everyone, and is really built on mentoring and having great mentors. When I was a college athlete, the only professionals I knew were my coaches and my professors, and so that book, in that book, I. Interviewed 15 women who all play college sports, who are all doing various things professionally, and the goal was for them to be able to learn about different careers, professions and leadership from women who weren't in their shoes. So that book was really powerful, because it wasn't just my story, it was others as well, which   Michael Hingson ** 45:21 is great. When did that book come out? 2016 okay? And then,   Angela Lewis ** 45:27 yes. And then there, there's a workbook that goes along with my first book, The Game Changing assist. And so that's, that's where we are right now with publications. But I'm working on some I'm working on another one right now, kind of the lessons I've learned over the past decade from from those books. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 45:48 so very excited about that. When will that one be out?   Angela Lewis ** 45:50 It'll be out this summer. The release date isn't set yet, but it'll be this summer cool.   Michael Hingson ** 45:58 And so you're to talk about all the lessons that you've learned and all the things that have happened and, oh, boy, I'll bet you'll have a lot to say about the pandemic in that one.   Angela Lewis ** 46:06 Oh, the pandemic changed so much for all of us. Yes, that that book is called, tentatively named, um, keep bouncing forward. How to stay confident when life knocks you off your game? Mm, what I've learned the past decade life will knock you off your game, and things don't always turn out the way that you think they will, and you get thrown some curveballs. So try to help my younger self and some and other other people learn. You know, how do you keep going in the midst of challenging times? Yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 46:41 there, there are a lot of times that we get thrown curveballs, and we didn't have any control over the curve balls coming necessarily, but it's like anything else. How do we deal with them? And that's what's really important. Do we do we analyze them? Do we find out whether it's a really valuable curveball that we can still hit out of the park if we're going to use another sports analogy, or or what, but we we do need to recognize that things happen, and it's always going to be a question of how we deal with it,   Angela Lewis ** 47:14 always, and it's the only thing we can control. We can't control other people. We can't control the overall situation that we can't control the weather. I mean, there's so many things that we just must most that we can't control. So navigating that and understanding that you still have a choice of a response in the midst of is the overall theme, if we can learn. It's really three parts. It's about learning in the midst of the challenge growing, which comes out of the learning of new things and being stretched and then giving. How do we give to others after we've gone through and and have gained wisdom from it?   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, yeah, one of the things I've said ever since September 11, basically, is that we need to not worry about the things that we can't control. We had no control over September 11 happening, and I've never seen evidence to prove to me that that we could have figured it out, even if all the various departments in the United States government were cooperating with each other. I think that the reality is that the lesson we should learn about teamwork is that a team of 19 terrorists kept their mouth shut and made happen what we all experienced. So we didn't have control over that, but we absolutely have control over how we respond to it and how we deal with it internally, for us,   Angela Lewis ** 48:40 yes, 100% I mean, that was definitely, I mean, forever memorable and very tragic, and that's all we that's all we can control. And the environments that we're around. Who do we listen to in the most difficult times? How do we get back centered when we go through those difficult situations and continue to move forward, because we can't stop. I think, you know, Michael, when difficult things happen, oftentimes we want to, like, shut it all down, but you just can't stop forever. Have to keep going   Michael Hingson ** 49:12 well, and a corollary to that is that we need to always keep learning. I think the people, I think you mentioned it earlier, who say, Well, I already know all this. I don't need to learn anymore. They're the they're the scariest of all, because those are the people that are going to always be left by the wayside.   Angela Lewis ** 49:30 And given this rate of change of technology and the rate of change of things, learning has to be our top priority, because things are always changing. You don't want to be left behind. What do you think of   Michael Hingson ** 49:45 the the the things that we keep hearing in in schools with the advent of AI and chat GPT, the whole issue of students using chat GPT to write their papers and so on, and. What a bad thing that is. As   Angela Lewis ** 50:01 a non parent, I always preface this with anything that has to do with schools and kids. Always say, as a non parent, as an auntie, well, in the business where we use chat GPT all the time, we use it as a tool, yep. And so I think if we don't allow kids to use the tools, then they're going to be left behind. But we can teach them how to use tools wisely and how to fact check to make sure that what they're saying is that the tools are used in their voice and and used in a way that helps them become better at whatever they're doing. But we can't not use it. So I don't have the exact answer, but I think not using it is dangerous as well. Can be dangerous as well. Well, we've talked about this is not, yeah, go ahead. No, I was just going to say it's not going anywhere.   Michael Hingson ** 50:57 We've talked about fear of public speaking and so on. One of the things that I've advocated ever since I first learned about chat GPT and how teachers are complaining that too many students are just letting chat GPT write their papers. My position is, let them let chat GPT do it. The teachers need to adapt and that, I don't mean that in a cold hearted way, but the best thing to do is you can really find out how well students have learned the material or not by if you assign a paper and everybody writes a paper and then turns it in, then take a class period and let everyone have one minute, or a minute and a half to come up and defend their paper, turn the paper in, and defend and then defend the paper, because you're going to see very quickly who just let some system write their paper, or who maybe use the system, but really still wrote the paper themselves and really understands the concepts, and that's what it's really about. And I know that I've seen that even much earlier than chat GPT, I had a physics professor who was in charge of developing the PhD qualifying exam for classical mechanics one year for those people who wanted to become and get get PhDs in physics, and more people failed his exam than anyone else had ever experienced. And the powers that be called him in and were chastising him, and he said, Wait a minute. You don't get it. He said, Look at this paper. This is the exam I give to all of my freshmen in classical mechanics. And here's the exam that we use for the PhD qualifying exam. The only difference between the two was that both had 16 questions that were conceptual, not mathematical in nature, but the PhD qualifying exam had four questions that were clearly solving mathematical equations, Lagrangian dynamics and so on. And the thing that people messed up on were not the four mathematical things, but all the concepts, because physics people spend so much time dealing with the math rather than focusing on the concepts that people never really got them. And the result was that people messed up on the concepts, although they got the math part his test was the same one that his freshman students got. It really kind of quieted them all down. Quieted all the powers down, because they realized, oh, maybe he's not the problem, which is so true.   Angela Lewis ** 53:45 You know you're Oh, nope, no, go ahead. No, I think you're right. I think educators will have to find a way to to ensure that students are still learning while using the technology that exists, yeah, I think that   Michael Hingson ** 54:07 it's a paradigm shift, and chat GPT is creating this paradigm shift, and now what we need to do is to recognize the value of of what it brings. I've written articles, and I use chat GPT when I write articles, but I will look at the ideas that it provides and it and it comes up with things I hadn't thought of, which is fine, and I will include them, but I'm still the one that ultimately writes the articles, and it needs to be that way. And I don't care how good chat GPT gets, it can be the most perfect thing, but it still isn't me, and it never will be,   Angela Lewis ** 54:43 and that ties back into the storytelling. Chat GPT can't tell our stories of our lives. It can't create the experiences that we've had. It can't recreate our experiences. So even in using chat GPT or any any AI software to help write. And we still have to be able to speak authentically to our lived experience, and it can never replace that. It can never replace you. It can never replace our experiences and the impact those experiences can have for others.   Michael Hingson ** 55:14 And that is so true. So for you, we're doing this podcast called unstoppable mindset. What does unstoppable mindset mean to you, and how do you bring it out and make it a part of everything that you do in every day and in your whole life?   Angela Lewis ** 55:32 Unstoppable mindset, to me, means getting knocked down and being willing to get back up and get knocked down again, and being willing to get back up, and more importantly, believing that you can get back up. You're going to miss, to use the sports analogies, you're going to miss shots. You're going to not win every you're not going to win every game, and you're not going to play well every night, every day. Won't be perfect, but if you're willing to keep moving forward and keep pushing forward, then you still have an opportunity to one inspire others, but also to get to your goals, whatever they may be.   Michael Hingson ** 56:08 And the reality is, the more of it you do, the better you'll become. And maybe it'll get to the point where you won't miss any shots and you'll just be perfect, and that's okay, too, as long as you recognize where it came from and why you've been able to attain so well.   Angela Lewis ** 56:26 Yes, yes. And sometimes, Michael, you know, our mindset, looking at others journeys, can help us as well. And it can. It's like, okay, if they can do it, I can do it if, if my parents can. You know, my mom grew up in Mississippi and literally picked cotton. I mean, my mom's 83 years old, and so to be able to see what she's gone through, and for her to have the mindset, to be able to push through and to continue to have faith, well, then I can too. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:57 and that's and that's as it should be.   Angela Lewis ** 57:01 Yes, we can lean on those stories of mentors or others who've been through challenging situations and use that to crystallize an unstoppable mindset within us as well.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 And I think that's as good as it gets. And so with that, we've been doing this just about an hour. I think it's time to go off and let you go off. And I don't know whether you've had dinner yet or not, but I haven't, and I know dinner is going to be coming. But more important than that, we've been talking for a while. I don't want to bore people, but I want to thank you for being here, and I want to really tell you how much I appreciate all the the words of wisdom that you have given us and all the things that you've had to say, it's been wonderful, and I want to thank all of you for being with us today. I hope that you've come away with a better commitment to a better understanding of and a better resolve to be more unstoppable than you thought you were. So thank you for all of you for being here and being a part of this. Love to hear what you think, Angela, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Angela Lewis ** 58:09 If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn, Angela R Lewis on LinkedIn, or you can reach out to me on Instagram. The Angela R Lewis, Michael, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation.   Michael Hingson ** 58:23 Well, it's been fun, and I again, want to thank you all, and I'd love to hear from you. Please feel free to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com that's Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n, so Thanks all for for being here. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or hearing our podcast today. We love it. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, Angela for you as well. Please introduce us. We're always looking for people to come on and tell their stories, because I think everyone has a story, and my goal is to give people the opportunity to tell them and inspire the rest of us. So please come on and don't hesitate any of you to introduce us to people who we ought to have on. So again. Angela, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you, Michael. You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Ped, Burk and special guest Havard Derek! The boys open the show discussing class reunions and aging. Has the world changed more from 1977-1997 or 2005-2025? Adam introduces a new segment called "Number Ones". The boys talk seafood. Adam is annoyed by MomTok. Our own near death farm stories and how lucky we were. In the meat, Mm!, the guys get NERDY, and rank quite possibly their favorite hobby, board games. Hut Hut! Love y'all.

As a property manager, you know the value you provide to real estate investors. You offer peace of mind, safety and certainty, and expertise. What if every investor found a property manager to partner with before even contacting a realtor? On today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with real estate investing author and coach Dustin Heiner to talk about building wealth through real estate investing and the role of property managers. You'll Learn [06:06] Dustin's Journey to Financial Independence [17:48] The Importance of Property Management in Real Investing [30:04] The Importance of Finding Clients You Want to Work With [41:42] Investing as A Property Management Business Owner Quotables “If you try to serve people, then your life is going to get better.” “If you don't have your business that could run itself, then you're going to be losing money.” “Your property manager is absolutely your quarterback.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Dustin Heiner (00:00) this is the number one thing that I teach all my students, the first thing they always say, Hey Dustin, I found a great city to invest in. I've already got five realtors sending me deals. said, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Let's say you bought one of those properties. Who's going to manage that? And they said, I don't know. I said come on. Like you, you're putting the cart way before the horse realtors are the last thing because you need to make sure that the   business is going to run perpetually without you. Cause the last thing you want is another job.   Jason Hull (00:26) All right, we are live. I am Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and we have the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted,   cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profit, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like bar rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses, and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. At DoorGrow we believe that good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate   high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. I'm hanging out today with Dustin Heiner who is successfully unemployed, according to his shirt.   it for those that can't see this later. So Dustin, welcome to the DoorGrow show.   Dustin Heiner (01:53) Jason, thank you so much for having me on the show. just love, I love property managers. I'm a real estate investor, bought property since 2006. Just, I don't know, I've got 30 plus properties, 750 apartment unit complexes and hotels I invest in. And I love not doing any work because my property managers are amazing. it takes a lot of time finding the right property managers, but in the end they make my life easier and I love paying them. They're only one of two people I love to pay, my accountant   and my property managers, because they make my life easier. I love that you have this show. I'm super pumped to be on, so thank you so much for having me.   Jason Hull (02:31) Awesome. I love the positivity because a lot of my clients get a lot of... How do we say it? Shit. Really. And you know, they feel unappreciated in a lot of... So I know there's a lot of listening. They're like, man, I want investors like this guy. But yeah, I love that you love paying property managers. I think I've said on one of my TikToks or reels, I said, the biggest mistake landlords make...   with rental properties is not hiring a property manager. And during this process.   Dustin Heiner (03:01) I don't want to deal   with tenants personally. I invested so that my property would work for me and I did not want to handle talking to tenants. In fact, I did at the beginning, I started talking to tenants, but I found out I'm a pushover because it's my property and I'm trying to be nice and everything like that. And it's so much better when there's a middle man that's going to be there. I tell my property managers, use me as the bad guy. Like say, this landlord, he's a jerk, but this is what we got to do.   I want to help them to make it easier on them, but in the end they make my life easier. yeah, I absolutely love that. Well, one thing you and I both know, property managers should be investing themselves too. They should be grabbing properties. if you know of a, if you're a property manager, you will eventually know somebody, an investor, who's going to be selling a house. Well, shoot. Instead of like, oh, point this over to investor, which I get lots of property managers sending me deals, say, hey, this guy's looking to sell. I'm like, great, and I'll buy it.   how much better would be if you guys bought   Jason Hull (04:00) Yeah, absolutely. I mean if you're a property manager you should really understand and know real estate investing like you're you're basically the advisor for your clients to do this and You have a pulse You know an understanding of the market that nobody else has and so leaning on a good property manager It can also be they could be an invaluable resource   of knowledge. if you before you get into a property one of the smartest things you could do is go ask the property managers is this a good investment or is this a good area or is this like is this a good idea and they're like no you should not have a short-term rental property out in the middle of the desert that nobody wants to go to like it's not you're not gonna cash flow but the you know the guru I'd listen to said I could you know yeah don't do that   Dustin Heiner (04:47) I've got, yeah, no, and you're 100 % right. So I personally, I've coached thousands of people to buy properties and I like buy and hold. Like it could be long-term, short-term, medium-term, even co-living, but we're gonna buy and hold these properties. Like we've got five kids. So I'll give these properties to my kids. I started investing back in 2006, just kept buying property after property. And then I realized when you get cashflow, when you get money coming in every single month from every single property, then you get financial independence and everything else on top of that is just gravy.   Jason Hull (04:47) Okay.   Dustin Heiner (05:15) And I consider my property manager, my quarterback of my team, like the football football team, they're going to make me money. They're going to protect me. They're going to make sure that everything is going right there. They're the, they're the quarterback of my team. And so when I find a good property manager, I hold onto them. In fact, I love find, well, here's what I do also. So in finding a good property manager, I do interviewing. I don't just grab first person because I personally feel like it's best to, you know, not everybody can work with everybody meaning   Somebody might not work well with me. I might have a bad personality of them. They're like, I don't like this guy. He's too hyper. He's got too much energy. Or they might say, hey, this is a great person to work with. And so what I love to do is when I grab a property manager and I just keep buying properties and keep giving it to the property manager, they keep doing well. But I mean, honestly, in the end, I wanted financial freedom and I knew that as I bought real estate over time, the value goes up. But the biggest thing is I invest for cash flow so that   Jason Hull (05:48) Bye.   Dustin Heiner (06:10) Money comes in every single month and give you case in point, your property managers are sending money. Like if you're a property manager, you're sending money to your investors, which is great because you're, making money, but you're also making them money. But at the same time, imagine that money coming into your pocket.   Jason Hull (06:27) Okay, I love this. think the clients listen to this or even property managers just listen to this and be like, I should probably send this out to all my clients so they should they can listen to this because this guy knows something and I want all my clients to see us in this light. This is a great light to see us in. So let's let's go back because we skipped qualifying you. Let tell us about yourself. Qualify yourself. Why should investors that   that these property managers send this podcast episode to and say, listen to this guy Dustin, you should be, you want to be like Dustin. Why should investors be listening to you?   Dustin Heiner (07:00) Absolutely, totally.   you know what, I'm even gonna tell you a quick story of what really shoved me into real estate investing. I started investing back in 2006, but I was not born with money. In fact, I was born into a very poor family, and I did what everybody is taught. We're taught this same exact path. You go to school, you get good grades. You take those good grades, and you go to college or university and get thousands and thousands of dollars into debt.   and then you get a piece of paper or a degree, that's what it's called, and you take that degree and you shop around and you try to find a job, a quote unquote career from someplace. And so I'm doing that exact same thing. In fact, Jason, I get the most stable, secure job you can ever think of. I got a job in the local county government in California doing IT. So California is not going away, government's not going away, and IT is definitely not going away, because I'm just like risk averse. Well, at the same time, I bought one rental property.   And that one rental property, I remember that check I got from the property manager. It was $317. Like, this is great. I need to buy more and more properties. But you know what happens? Life started getting in the way. My wife and I started having kids, after kid. Eventually, and this is what really got me to make sure I started investing. So I stopped because life got in the way, buying properties. But my wife and I started having kids. And when my wife had our fourth child, I went on paternity leave. That's where the dad stays home with the mom, changes poopy diapers, all that good stuff.   Well, after two weeks, I go back to work and on a Friday at 3.30 in the afternoon, I get a call from my boss's boss's boss's secretary, like the top dog. she says, Dustin, would you please come in the office? I said, sure. And I paused for a second. I hung up the phone. thought, why in the world are they calling me in the office? Like, this isn't normal. It's not normal. And I've also seen plenty of movies Friday at 3.30 is not a good sign. And I remembered a little bit before, right before I went on paternity leave.   Jason Hull (08:48) now.   Dustin Heiner (08:51) There was some rumors or some rumbly going on in the county that there could potentially be layoffs. And he really shook it off. said, there's no way I've got great seniority here. My boss is thinking of doing a great job. So I get up and I walked down the hallway to my boss's office. Now this hallway isn't very long. In fact, it's kind of short, but every single step that it took, felt like the hallway got longer and longer and longer. And it felt like my feet became lead bricks because as I was walking, I started thinking I could potentially get laid off while I get down the hallway.   Jason Hull (09:01) Amen.   huh.   Dustin Heiner (09:20) I turn the corner and I see my boss's door. His door is closed and I see his secretary there, super sweet, nice old lady. She says, Dustin, would you please have a seat? And I go and I take my seat and she's kind of sheepishly grinning at me, trying to console me with her eyes, because she knows everything about what's going on. I know nothing about what's going on. So I take my seat and I started thinking about my life. This entire plan that other people told me, I started thinking, if I lose my job, did I just waste my life doing this? And my goodness, we just had our fourth child.   Jason Hull (09:38) man.   Dustin Heiner (09:50) If I can't provide for our kids, does that make me a failure as a father? Does that make me a failure as a husband, as a man trying to provide for his family? Well, as I'm sitting there, my hands get all clammy, my forehead gets all sweaty because the nerves are just crushing me. Well, the door to my boss's office opens up and out walks a coworker of mine with a piece of paper in her hands. She is noticeably distraught, very upset. She's not necessarily crying, but you could tell her world has been rocked. She passes by me and my boss says, Dustin, would you please come in the office?   Jason Hull (09:54) Hmm.   Dustin Heiner (10:19) So I get up and I go into his office and I get laid off. And this is the government. Nobody gets fired or laid off from the government, but I did. And this is the reason why I tell the story. So I take that layoff notice and I go back to my desk and I realized two things sitting there at my desk, just getting laid off. Number one, I need to get another job to be able to provide for my family. So really blessed, praise the Lord to find another job in the same county, another department wasn't having those issues. Second thing I realized, I need to make sure this never.   Jason Hull (10:24) Hmm.   Dustin Heiner (10:48) ever happens to me again. I didn't make sure that nobody can take away my ability to feed my family. So right then and there, I said, I am an investor. It may so happen that 100 % of my money came from my job. That's now my part-time job. I'm a full-time investor. So quickly fast forward the story. Started buying property after property after property, each one making me 250, 350, $550 a month. I still own all of them. And now fast forward, I go to my new boss after 30 plus properties. say, Hey boss,   Jason Hull (10:57) No.   Dustin Heiner (11:17) I'm laying you off. laugh and it says Dustin, what are you gonna do? I said, I don't have to do anything. I own real estate that makes me money without even working. So last quick part of the story. Remember that short hallway that got longer and longer and longer? Well, I would walk to and from my car to my job a mile and a half every day. I was too frugal to pay for parking. Well, this last walk, I felt like I was walking on clouds because I knew I would never need a job again because I had money coming in from my property. So for you listening,   I want you to realize if you have your own business, if you're working for somebody else, if you have real estate that makes you money without even working grows over time. In fact, every 15 years, real estate doubles in value. mean, that alone is just should blow your mind. And then the cash flow that it makes. So in the end, what I suggest is if you make your own value coming from what you put into your own investments, IE rental properties, you're actually going to have   a floor of income. Now, just same thing with a property manager. You get your landlords and let's say you have 100 units. Well, you have a floor of income because that's normal income that comes in. Same thing with real estate investing. Let's say, God forbid, all those landlords to say this is not working out, we're moving. Well, you have your properties that has a floor of income coming in for you and then it takes so much stress off of you. So I'll pause the story because you've probably got plenty of questions, Jason.   Jason Hull (12:43) I love it. what a journey. there's always something that of thrusts us into a new state or even into entrepreneurism. I was suddenly a single dad trying to figure out how do I have time to spend with my kids when I'm stuck at a job at HP because I was in IT.   I'm like, I haven't even earned a week off yet. And I'm gonna get them for a week to spend time with them? How's that gonna work? How do I get to be dad? so, yeah, so sometimes I joke my kids are what made me finally leap to become an entrepreneur. so.   I love this idea of real estate allowing you to fire your boss or fire yourself from the job. Explain to people now what you do and your programs and all the stuff that you've built since, because you've done a lot of big things. I want people to make sure they understand Dustin's a badass and he knows a few things.   Dustin Heiner (13:36) Yeah.   Thanks, man. Well, here's what really   happened. So as I was quitting my job 2014 2015 inch I was 37 years old and I had so many people asking me how I was not working for somebody else and still making money if I feed my family I told them I invest in real estate and they would always ask the second question. Well, can you show me and so I just started showing friends and family members how to do it and then I realized two things number one was fun and number two I had plenty of free time because when you're not working for somebody else   When you're not having like, if you're a property manager, you have many bosses. Let's say you have 10 different landlords, working with 10 different bosses. That's really what it comes down to. And if you don't have any bosses bossing you around, you have 40 plus or more hours of your life back to do whatever you want. And so I just started helping people. So fast forward, I started a podcast, the master passive income podcast, you were on it. And that podcast in 2015, over 2 million downloads now with me just coaching. It's usually a solo show, like literally a solo show where I don't even   It's just me teaching how to do this, but over 2 million downloads because I just want to give this out. Then wrote three, no, four books, coach thousands of people. Now even have a live event, bring in hundreds of real estate investors together, but all for a goal. Here's the main goal. It's to help 1 million people to invest in real estate. And the big reason why I decided to have this goal was because the more people that I serve in my life, the more money they make and the more money I make in the end.   And so now everything from coaching thousands of people to having live events where we're just coaching even more and helping even more to books and podcasts, YouTube, you name it, like social media, Instagram, I'm over a hundred, 200,000, almost 200,000 followers on it now, just giving. And here's the big thing, a takeaway that I would love to share with everybody listening. For you listening, you need to realize if you serve and if you try to serve people, then your life is going to get better. The more people that I serve,   My goodness, I make so much more money, but the great thing is it's not a win-lose. It's not like somebody loses in order for me to win. No, it should be a win-win-win. And so now everything I do at Master Passive Income, to the free courses, to the paid coaching, all that sort of stuff, it's to help people to invest in real estate to get 40 plus hours of their life back and become successfully unemployed.   Jason Hull (15:59) It's amazing. And that's just really, really awesome. You're doing big things. You're doing big things. And you're not the typical property management client. How many different property managers do you have? Because your portfolio is spread out now, or is it all in your network? Five different states.   Dustin Heiner (16:14) Five different states? Yeah, correct. Five different states.   I think we have five main property managers. ⁓ Yeah, five main property managers that I work with.   Jason Hull (16:20) Yeah.   And how many units in total do you?   Dustin Heiner (16:26) So   single family home, like I might say single family, four units and below. So I would consider anything four units and below be residential. We have 33, 32, 30 plus single family homes, short term, midterm and even long term. Then we have two large apartment complexes, one's near Nashville, 350 units and other one's in Chattanooga, Tennessee, 325 units. And so we have great property managers for those properties. Then also,   I've invested in some hotels and so we have the, you know, the management company for that. But, what I found, and this is the number one thing that I teach all my students, all my students, lots of them, because here's what the first thing they always say, Hey Dustin, I found a great city to invest in. I've already got five realtors sending me deals. said, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Let's say you bought one of those properties. Who's going to manage that? And they said, I don't know. I said come on. Like you, you're putting the cart way before the horse realtors are the last thing because you need to make sure that the   business is going to run perpetually without you. Cause the last thing you want is another job. In fact, this is the one big thing that I see when a mom and pop investor, somebody buys one property and then they buy a second or third, maybe they get to five, six, maybe seven or eight and they're managing it themselves and they cannot scale. And I know your audience, everybody knows about scaling cause you want to scale your business, the property management business. Well, you can't scale if you're the only person doing all this sort of stuff. And so,   Here's another question I get that people, other investors or even my students say, Dustin, how do you afford a property manager in your properties? I say, I don't afford a property manager. Like I don't pay my taxes on any of my properties. I don't pay my insurance. I don't pay for my property manager. I don't pay for repairs. Meaning I don't have to get a job to pay for any of that. My tenants pay that in the form of rents. And then I make sure I do not buy a property.   unless all of those expenses are accounted for even repairs, vacancy factor, and especially property manager. And that's the thing that most people don't do is realize, let's account for all those expenses, but then utilizing your property manager well enough. Here's the big question. And so all your audience is property managers. So they're going to, they probably rarely get this question, but here's my favorite question that I ever asked property managers. One of the first ones that said, if you would invest your money in this city now,   Jason Hull (18:37) Mmm.   Dustin Heiner (18:48) What area would it be? What zip code, where would it be? That is gold. I've asked actually the opposite question. Where should I not invest that city? And property managers say, I probably shouldn't answer that because discrimination and all that sort of stuff. so the question is better. Where would you invest your money? And then, yeah, you're gonna understand the entire market because the property manager, but you also Jason, we're awesome. The question is,   Jason Hull (18:51) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, wherever you...   Dustin Heiner (19:12) Would you manage this property not after you bought the property, but before you buy the property? That's a big thing. Cause a lot of people buy a house because they listen to tick-tock gurus and they just bought a house and they, Oh yeah, it should work out. Well, if you don't have any of the manage it, it's no longer an asset. It's a liability. So how much better is you ask the property manager beforehand, especially if you are investing, you're seeing, or sorry, if you're a property manager, you're seeing where the best properties are, where the best clients are, the best tenants, all that sort of stuff.   Jason Hull (19:19) Yeah.   Yeah, sometimes 100, 1000 times over. Like they have a lot of anecdotal data, right? And data data. So the bad path then is you kind of mentioned is to go to a realtor first, get a property, and then maybe go find a property manager. That's a really bad path. And that's kind of the default path that a lot of people would go down. And they're just headed towards a potential train wreck. Odds are   that the realtors incentive is not to just get you into the best investment solution. You get the most money on a deal and then you're going to you're picking this property and you have no idea if it's going to work out and then you might not even realize you need a property manager and you're saying start with the property manager. Ask them the area.   Dustin Heiner (20:16) No, it's to sell a property. That's all it is.   Absolutely.   Jason Hull (20:34) get their advice and clarity and find the property manager that you would want to be able to manage this. Like find a good property manager first and then make some good decisions. make some, let them help you make some good decisions.   Dustin Heiner (20:48) Well,   how I would explain it is I'm going to find the experts and it could be also definitely property management, but think of also inspectors, mortgage brokers, contractors, plumbers, handymen, insurance agents. I'm not the expert. In fact, like I said, I've coached thousands of people now to invest in real estate successfully. And sometimes they'll ask me, hey, Dustin, you invest in this city.   You're the expert. Tell me like, where should I? Tell me all this stuff. said, Whoa, I'm not the expert at all. In fact, I don't want to, I might know a little bit, but I don't want to be the expert. I hire experts. I hire them. So if you're a property manager, what you need to be thinking is, well, number one, you are the expert in that area because you're currently investing your time in your business to build up for landlords to utilize you. Well, that's number one, but who else would you actually want to start working with?   Now, personally, what I find is the property manager. so if you're not a property manager, if you're an investor listening to this, your property manager is absolutely your quarterback. I treat them as best as I can. Like I treat them so well because they take care of me and they want to take care of me. If I'm a jerk, if I'm like, you know, withholding, withholding money or like, we don't need those repairs. And they're trying to do their job and I'm holding them back from it. They're not.   excited about working with me. And so what I want is as best I can, my property manager to look favorable on me so they could take care of my property so I can have all my life back to play with my kids.   Jason Hull (22:15) Yeah, I mean this very much goes along with like Benjamin Hardy and Dan Sullivan's idea of who not how. Like finding the right who instead of going around and trying to just find the what like a property. Go find the who that can help you figure out how to do this instead of trying to figure out how to do everything on your own. Which is the slowest path to growth. Period. You know, is to do everything on your own.   Dustin Heiner (22:39) Well, you can't scale that way.   Yeah, you can't scale. If it's all about yourself, you can't scale. can't get like all my 30 plus properties. I love saying this. So a lot of people have heard of the book, the four hour work week. Good book and all. Basically, the premise is make your life so that you only have to work four hours a week. Well, honestly, I think working four hours a week is for suckers. I don't want to work four hours a week. I don't even want to work four hours a month. I maybe work 30 minutes a month on all of my properties because they get the property management statements.   I verify everything that's good, but I'll say this also. My daughter who's 16 years old, because I've coached a thousand people now, I coached her, she's my oldest and all my other kids are going to do it. She bought her first property four months ago and I coached her. She now does all the bookkeeping, all the, basically instead of me doing the work, 30 minutes, I pay her to do it and she oversees her property as well. And it is so much better when you have the experts first. One quick last thing, because you mentioned a really key, most people, and I did this too.   Jason Hull (23:32) if   Dustin Heiner (23:36) I wouldn't write to how do we find properties? In fact, my most downloaded podcasts are because on Master Passive Income, have lots of like how to find properties, how to fund properties, how to find property management. Like literally, it's just coaching. And the most downloaded are how to find and how to fund. Those are by far because people think those are the that's number one things that they don't have, but they believe that they need, which is not necessarily the case. Same thing on my YouTube channel. The most downloaded videos I have one.   That's like think like 16 different ways to get creative financing. If you don't have money yourself, how to buy properties with creative financing. I'm the most downloaded, but that's here's here's what I definitely got to say this. If you don't have your business that could run itself, because I always talk about building your business first. If you don't have your business that could run itself, then you're going to be losing money. And they give you a quick example what that looks like. I buy a property that's going to be making me money every single month and I don't buy it unless all expenses.   Jason Hull (24:11) Yeah.   Dustin Heiner (24:34) property manager included, vacancy factor, repairs, all included. And I add on my profit. If I want to make $400 a month, I don't buy a house unless the price is low enough, interest rates right, all the expenses are right to where I'm making that profit every single month on that property. And then obviously rents go up. But here's what it's like if you do not build a business, you do not get the right people in place. Imagine a convenience store. You're to start a convenience store, know, candy bars and soda machines and all that sort of stuff. Well, you will not sign a lease on a location.   open the doors and set a box of candy bars in on the ground. You wouldn't do that. You go out of business in two seconds. But what you would do is you would get, you'd build the business first. You get the gondolas, the shelving units, and all the candy bars go on the countertops, cold storage, bank accounts, cash registers, insurance, managers, everything in the business before you buy any inventory. Same thing with real estate investing. You build the entire business, get everybody the right people in the business, and then every property that I own,   is a piece of inventory that I put into my business. When you start realizing that even though you're an investor, you are a business owner that has inventory. Because I remember in 2006 when I first started investing, 2008 happened. 2008 happened and the crash happened. I knew so many real estate investors went bankrupt. fact, still talk, if anybody was investing back then, most likely you ask them, how did you do in 2008? I went bankrupt.   Jason Hull (25:44) Thanks.   out   Dustin Heiner (25:57) Honestly, that's literally, that's conversation happen all the time. But for me, I made more money. I was blown away. In fact, I was worried because I was just new to this. And because I was solely investing for cashflow. Now appreciation will come. That's great. But I'm going to give these properties to my kids. But I was solely investing for cashflow, $500 a month, $600 a month. And because of that, sadly, people, they had to get foreclosure because of the economy and all that sort of stuff.   but what did to the pool of renters, the pool went up. So there's more demand, supply's the same. In fact, I just buy properties and there's more renters. So my rents went up. I made more money in the crash when everybody else was going bankrupt because I was solely investing for cashflow. One quick, let me say one more thing, because I definitely want you to jump in. One more quick thing. Imagine that candy bar that you would buy to sell. If you had a candy bar business,   If you can buy it for 50 cents and sell it for a dollar and you knew all day every day, you can buy it for 50 cents, sell it for a dollar. You think, how can I get more money? Well, you'll make money. But let's say this is a great thing about real estate investing. Let's say you didn't even have 50 cents. It took you 25 cents to borrow 50. Well, you're out of pocket 75 cents. You still sell it for a dollar and you make 25 cents every single time. You would do that deal every day and you would think, how can I get more money? You'd borrow it. But here's one thing you would not do. Same thing with real estate investing.   You would not buy a candy bar for $2 if you could only sell it for a dollar. You do not do business to lose money. So I'll pause it because you could probably have plenty of questions, but we want to build a business and make money.   Jason Hull (27:26) Perfect.   No, love your analogies. I love that you're equating it to like even just buying and selling candy bars, which maybe some of us did in elementary school as a side hustle, or our kids do sometimes. My daughter makes little rubber bands, like little bracelets with different colors, and she goes and sells them. And the materials cost very little. And then she's like building these bracelets and ask them what colors they want. And then she's selling them at a market. She's like, I made like 20 bucks, you know.   Dustin Heiner (27:48) yeah.   Jason Hull (28:00) Yeah, so, you know, we've done this as kids, but when you equate it to something so simple, because we look at raw real estate and the complexity and all the numbers and we're like, this might make sense in the long run with some depreciation and then like, yeah, and you're like, let's keep this really simple. Let's like equate it to a candy bar.   Dustin Heiner (28:21) Because all that will come   like appreciation, depreciation, tax benefits, market appreciation over time, forced appreciation. Like when you buy a house, you fix it up, you guys know it'll make more money or it'll be worth more. All that will come, but income does not always come. So if you buy for income every single month from your property, could be long term, midterm, know, 30, 69 days, short term, or even co-living. If you buy for that, you will always get wealth.   If you buy, I'm hoping it'll go up in value. Like I hope this candy bar, I'll buy it for $2. Hopefully from a dollar now it'll be a $3. If you hope you're going to be stuck holding the bag and it's going to hurt. And so what you want to do is you want to make sure that you are investing for income. Cause when you invest for income, everything else will always come. But if you invest for just appreciation, you will not necessarily get income. You won't necessarily get all the benefits of everything that comes with real estate.   Jason Hull (29:17) Yeah, the other thing is the property managers often are one of the first to know if an existing client or owner wants to sell that property off. So they're great people to know if you want access to off market deals. I'm sure the property managers you have would love to get all of their clients to sell their properties and give them to you because you're easy. You're like their dream client because they'll have a one off like super emotional accidental investor that couldn't sell the property that's like.   driving them nuts and like they want it to be a perfect time capsule for a year because grandma planted the flower bed and like Timmy has his height in the door frame and like they want it to be perfect so they can sell it a year later and they're like, and it's like 10 times to 100 times harder to deal with operationally for them. The operational costs are really extreme. It doesn't sound like you're calling your property managers all the time.   Dustin Heiner (29:53) Ha ha!   Let me just say this. I don't want to talk to my property managers like month after month after month. I don't want, I just want the money. And as long as everything's going well, which is here's another thing. So if you're an investor, you want to make sure that your property managers understand your systems and procedures and processes. Like I have different property managers. They all treat all their landlords, everybody differently. But I say, when you're working with my properties, here's exactly how I want you to do it. And it's very simple things like   Jason Hull (30:13) Fuck it.   Dustin Heiner (30:37) Hey, rent's due on the first, late after the third, then you put a three day notice on the door if they don't need to get a late fee. And then once that three day notice is up, you start the eviction process. Like that's clockwork. It's most non-discriminate, yes.   Jason Hull (30:47) And this is pretty typical.   This is pretty typical, like decent property managers are already doing this anyway. Like this is really standard stuff.   Dustin Heiner (30:55) They should be. But I don't want to talk to the property manager. They're great people. I don't hire them unless   I like them. But at the same time, leave me alone so I can play with my kids. I could go to golf. could go to, I'm going to South Africa tomorrow for an investor trip. You know, I just want to live my life. Property manager, you take care of it. And if they are doing what I honestly like, I, they don't do well, meaning if they, if there's, it's not getting rented or there's that's a month after month where we're not getting,   rents paid, if things like that, then I'm like, I gotta find somebody else. Cause I don't want to have to think about it. If I have to think about the property, then why do I need you?   Jason Hull (31:29) Yeah, this is a challenge. They're property managers listening right now. Pay attention to this. Because a lot of property management business owners that come to us, they're not setting healthy boundaries with their clients. Because their clients don't know what they need. And so a lot of times the clients will artificially create a worse property manager. Because they're like, I need like this and I need that. I want, how's the renting process going? And did you talk to some people? Did you show it? And like what they think.   and they want to be so involved in the whole process, they're trying to micromanage the manager. And the manager's way better at this than them. By their own admission, they suck at this stuff, and they don't like it. But then they're trying to micromanage the manager, and bad property managers let them do it. Like the worst property managers usually have the highest operational costs in their business because they give every tenant and every owner a blank check for their time.   call me anytime and they phone system stuff so you can call them anytime and ask any question and they don't have a good system and so then they're wondering why they have, I had a client company once with 600 units under management in their business and they were making zero dollars. Property management can easily be death by a thousand cuts. I have seen inside thousands of property management companies and there are a lot that are making very little money.   And then like my wife Sarah, she had a property management business with 260 units. She was pulling in 90, 60 to 90 % profit margin. It took her, it was a part-time job for her really. And she moved to Austin with me and she managed these remotely. And these were C-class properties in Pennsylvania. We're talking $1,000 rent or less. This is like ghetto, like difficult tenants, difficult situations. And she had such strong boundaries.   and such good relationships with their owners in setting those boundaries that if they got needy or whatever, she would tell them that she was gonna fire them. And they were desperate to keep her because most property managers suck because of some of these reasons. And so she set really strong boundaries. And so her business was easy. She eventually installed one part-time person boots on the ground to help her open up property, show property, whatever, because she couldn't be there to do that and to pick up the mail.   and she had 60 to 90 % profit margin. It's like ridiculous. And so this is one of the trainings we have in our platform that we coach clients on, but property management could be death by a thousand cuts very easily. so it's just as important as it is for you to find a good manager to partner with, for them to find good clients to partner with and to be picky about their clients.   or to at least set better boundaries and expectations with their clients to help them be more like you.   Dustin Heiner (34:16) Absolutely. And it has to be a beneficial event where you guys are working together, a relationship. And like I said in the very beginning, I try to serve as many people as possible. The more people I serve in this life, the better my life gets, better their life gets. And as long as it's a win-win, in fact, one of my property managers, I paid him 12 % of the rent. the rent used to be, yeah, like when I, so this is when I first started investing in, it was in Ohio in 2006.   prices of rent were like 500 bucks. from 10, 10 % to 12%, it was like, you know, five bucks. And I was like, yes, go ahead. Now these are renting for a thousand dollars, but it's a hard area. It's like D plus C minus. I mean, it's a really rough area. In fact, I don't suggest any of my students invest there anymore because it's really, really rough. It's hard to find, like this property manager, I found them diamond in the rough, they worked with them for 10 years and then he retired and his daughter took over. So she's doing great too, but   All that to say, what you need to do is as you're hiring, finding the right property manager. So if you're an investor and you were trying to find a right property manager, you really need to make sure that you're paying them accordingly. That's going to be like, like I said, 10 % to 12%. Exactly. Exactly. Like they're going to make my life easier. What I need to do as an investor, if I need to pay more for a property manager, I need to buy the property for less.   Jason Hull (35:26) Yeah, don't try to cheat out on them. Yeah.   Dustin Heiner (35:38) I don't buy the property unless it pays for that good property manager. If I have to pay 15 % for good property manager, I don't buy the house unless I can afford that 15%. And in the end, my property manager in that one specific area, that's like C or D, D plus to C minus, I don't talk to her because she's so fantastic and she just doesn't bother me. I just let her run with it she does such a great job. And so it's such a great beneficial environment.   Jason Hull (36:03) Yeah, love it. I'm biased, but obviously, but I believe DoorGrow creates the best property managers because we help them figure some of these really simple things that they need to get down in. Sometimes they can't even see. Like one of the things we've been rolling out with clients is a three tier hybrid model because different investors have different strategies. There's really three psychological profiles of buyers that are taught in pricing psychology and those are the cheapos, the normals, and the premiums.   And so you need a pricing model that is a better fit for them. And the cheapos usually are really hyper concerned about price. They're not really focused on the long term as much. They're short-sighted. And so they're looking at what's the lowest fee I could get and they're like, cheaping out and they're making some big mistakes in the long run.   Dustin Heiner (36:46) Let me add, let   me add one thing with the cheapos. The cheapos will be the worst clientele. They will be the most problematic. It's just how life is. In fact, I'll give you.   Jason Hull (36:53) Next.   Operational cost   is the highest with the cheapos and so So one of the things that we coach our clients on is to make sure that they have these pricing models that balance between The a la carte of a cheapo and like you're gonna pay for everything extra so that they because then you're they're trying to gamble against the house Property managers the house and the property management should be winning right but a lot of times what property managers mistakenly do   Dustin Heiner (37:00) Absolutely.   Jason Hull (37:25) is they subsidize all of their lowest rent properties and their worst owners with their highest rent properties and their best owners. And they have properties in their portfolio they're actually losing money on. And sometimes they don't even realize this because they're not assessing them individually. We're like, yeah, you should fire those. Like you should just let them go or raise the price. It seems that is so obvious, but.   Dustin Heiner (37:45) especially if you're losing money on it.   Jason Hull (37:50) A lot of property managers have an entire section of their portfolio that's like 80, it's like the 80-20 rule. It's 80 % of their stress and their work and their challenges and it's like 20 % of their profits.   Dustin Heiner (38:02) And so here's a fun thing, like a thought, as you were saying, this had gotten to mind if and when somebody is pulling their hair out, an investor pulling their hat over a property or multiple properties, they just, they're just going to sell and because they're not good at investing. In fact, that's what I love to do is I coach people how to be good investors, how to make sure we're buying it right, how we're finding the right people, all that sort of stuff. Well, what's great is let's say they, you're, you fire them as clients, you fire them.   And they're like, I pull my hair out. I'm just going to sell. then eventually a good landlord will buy it. Good investor will buy it and they'll start working with you. So you start cutting out the 80 % that is just wasting your time and money and keep going after the 20 % that are making the money, making your life easier. That's just going to help everybody. Like it's just going to keep rising because in the end, the bad landlords there, they should just not be owning property.   Jason Hull (38:55) Yeah, I've had some interesting guests on our show recently and one of them runs a company. Basically, he explained to me that investors outside of the US love the US for real estate investing because he said almost nowhere else in the world can you get a 30 year fixed rate mortgage that allows you to do a payment that's low enough you could cash flow on it and just start making money right away, month after month.   And so they want to be able to get access to this. And so they help them set this up quickly. Get an EIN in a week and like get everything set up. Because it's complicated for them to figure that out. There's another company. I had a gentleman named Lioran. Really cool guy. Originally from Israel. He's here in the US, investor. And he created a company called Blanket. There's this really amazing platform for property managers that they can white label and that they use that allows them   It's like kind of like a property retention platform. So it allows them to put their clients portfolios into it, get a ton of extra data on their portfolios, and then they can, if they decide they want to sell this property, allows all the other investors in the entire blanket network to be able to get this and they get to keep managing that property without having to give it up. So property managers can have the properties   turn over and go to different owners and different investors, but they still retain them as that property is in their portfolio to manage. And so there's just, there's some really amazing things out there now for property managers. There's amazing tools, systems. We've got a lot of clients getting AI maintenance coordination using some really cool AI maintenance coordination tools that's allowing, cause getting a maintenance coordinator in a property management business, hard.   Ideally, it's like they're a veteran of doing maintenance of like 20 years and they don't want to run their own maintenance company and they want to come help you figure out what needs to be done. But there's an AI maintenance coordinator company that has been programmed by a guy who managed 30,000 units coordinating maintenance, all the way from small all the way up to that.   a long lengthy amount of experience and the system has programmed into it probably by now over a half a million work orders. Like and so it knows how to handle this better than probably anybody that you could hire and once you tell it you still have to train it you have to teach it but once you tell it how to handle things it can do it. And it's now doing phone calls it's like doing emails it's doing text like it's the craziest thing ever. And so there's this this there's this weird sort of   AI revolution happening right now and the smartest property managers are already adopting some of these tools because it allows them to scale their operations effectively. Eventually it'll be so commonplace everybody's like yeah we're all using this stuff and we can all like it's cheap enough or whatever and who knows maybe we'll all be out of jobs including property managers who knows but right now there's a good opportunity that if property managers are on the bleeding edge of what's working   you get as an investor a better property manager. And if.   Dustin Heiner (41:53) Well, for me,   there are plenty of software out there. Turbo Tenants One, Avails and other, apartments.com, those are fine, but I don't wanna even do any of that stuff personally. Yeah, as an investor, I don't wanna deal with that stuff. I wanna hire a person. And honestly, I don't think that AI, even though there's great tools as a property manager to help your business better, I don't wanna have AI run my business because I want an actual person   Jason Hull (42:05) this part of the night.   Yes.   Dustin Heiner (42:23) that it's   going to make sure like they have the emotions and feelings that they know, okay, there's something here, there's something there. And I just know personally, and this is why I teach all my students is, hey, these software are great if you're gonna manage yourself, but you can't scale if you're managing yourself. What we need is to hire the right people. It's all about, like you said earlier, there's a book, it's who, not how. We don't want to figure out the how, we want to get the right people in place. And one last quick thing that I said this a little bit earlier,   But people always ask, well, Dustin, how do you afford this, that, or the other? And the way I don't afford it, I make sure I don't buy a property unless all those expenses are accounted for, like the property manager to taxes, insurance, and even my profit. I make sure that is in there before I buy the property.   Jason Hull (43:10) Yeah, we have a ROI calculator that some of our clients use that we built out that already has their fees built into it so that the investors can see what are the benefits of this. What are the tax benefits? How does the cash flow like all this? And then, yeah, and in that, if it's not going to math out, then you just change how much you're putting down, you know, or you're getting a different property, right? so, but the...   The property management fees, if you're smart, should already be built in.   Dustin Heiner (43:41) Absolutely, 100%. And on top of that, again, I have to say your profit. If you're just guessing how much profit you're making, in fact, I always like to be conservative in my expenses higher so I don't get surprised, oh man, I didn't have the, or, and, or my revenue or the income from the rents. I estimate it or be conservative on the lower end. So if I could rent it for 1300, I run my numbers maybe at 1250, maybe 1200.   just so I'm not gonna be like, man, I can't make any money out of this property. Because trust me, it's really easy to overlook something if you're not hiring experts. Like my property managers, they know, here's a good property manager. I'll say, hey, property manager, I'm looking to buy this property, know, number one happy street. Tell me about it. Will you rent it? How much will it rent for? What's the vacancy factor? Will you manage it? What's the clientele like? And the grit ones will say, you know what? I know that area. In fact, I have a property like one or two streets over.   We were trying to rent it for 1400 Zillow said 1400, but we couldn't rent it for that. We got 1300 for it. That's gold. That like, is so much better information for an investor. When a property manager is he knows he or she knows exactly what's going on in there on the ground. And that's going to make sure that you're doing everything right. So when you hire the experts, they're going to make sure you do it right. Because especially property managers, I would say realtors, we said that a little bit earlier. Realtors just want to sell, sell for the high smoke, but your property managers.   for the longevity of that property, they're taking care of it. They're constantly making sure that it's working for you. So always ask them before you buy the property.   Jason Hull (45:16) I love that. This is a great message Dustin. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing this. I'm pretty confident that our clients and property managers listening is gonna be like, man, like every investor should listen and do what Dustin says. This would make our lives so much easier. And it makes them feel so much more valuable as a property manager. So I appreciate you sharing a positive message to everybody here on the DoorGroves show.   Anything else that in imparting that you would like to say to property managers that might be listening?   Dustin Heiner (45:46) Yeah, so one thing that I mentioned a little bit earlier is having a floor of income that's outside of whatever your job or work, your business, having a floor of income coming in. And what I planned on was I asked my wife, how much money do I need to make every single month in order for me to quit my job? Like what's our expenses like? And I remember the number, plan is day $4,200, insurance, mortgage, food, like you name it, everything, all of our expenses. I thought, okay, to become financially independent,   Jason Hull (45:52) Yeah.   would probably be double   nowadays. Which would probably be double nowadays.   Dustin Heiner (46:14) What's that? Oh,   probably, probably. Yeah, definitely. And so I said, okay, this is just math. If I buy one property that made me $500 a month. Well, in one year, that's $6,000. 10 properties, that is $5,000 a month. Okay, I got 10 properties right there. Then it covers it. That's $60,000 a year in income. 20 properties, that is $10,000 a month. That's $120,000 a year. That's passive. That's cash flow. That's after expenses.   And I thought, my goodness, all I need to do is hit that certain number. And then once I do, I don't have to work anymore. But here's the great thing. I had 40 plus hours of my life back that now I only build businesses that affect me and my family, as opposed to working for somebody else or, you know, having 10 different bosses that are just pulling my hair out. Now, let's say you had properties that of your own and you had your own property management company, you can fire those.   Jason Hull (46:59) You   Dustin Heiner (47:10) landlords that are taking up so much your time. You're making five bucks a month. It's like, it's not even worth it. Fire them because you have a floor of income. You are able to move forward. So in the end, when you're investing in real estate, you're going to be able to have a floor of income, which is so much more amazing because you have so many more options. Options are what's going to help you to make sure you scale and level up in life.   Jason Hull (47:33) Love it. Yeah, I think it's it's there's few things investment wise that can have as big of a return as having a business. So property managers listening. Cool. Build your business up. Grow that. But if your primary goal is just to get more doors, that's to manage for other people that I think you're making a mistake like your primary goal should be since you know real estate investing and they say invest in what you know.   you should be stacking your own doors. You should be investing and putting that in just a much better store of income for the long term and it's gonna grow and it's also if you're making a cash flow, you've already got the systems, you've got everything. Like you would make way more money on those units. So you should be building up your own real estate portfolio. One of our clients, he fired most of his third party clients because he just focuses on using his property management business now as a honey pot or a fly trap.   people come to him and say, hey, I've got this rental property. He's like, cool, let me scare the crap out of you of the tax liability if you ever decide to sell it. And maybe you should just, you know, do seller financing with me without talking about seller financing. All right, and so he's just got all these properties. He's just stacking doors and he's making so much money, right? So if you're listening and he's in our program, come be in our program. You get to hang out with this guy and other really amazing people do amazing things. But if you're a property manager, build your business up.   Yes, but also build up your real estate portfolio because you're one of the best at this. You're an expert at this. And that puts you in a state of integrity anyway, like if you believe in this stuff. And then build up your portfolio of clients portfolio.   Dustin Heiner (49:10) Hey Jason,   would you mind if I gave everybody a real estate investing course completely for free just for listening to the show?   Jason Hull (49:16) I would not mind that at all.   Dustin Heiner (49:19) Awesome. I like I said, my goal is to help 1 million people to invest in real estate. want you to invest. So get my real estate investing course completely for free. If you text the word rental, R E N T A L rental to three, three, seven, seven, seven rental to three, three, seven, seven, seven. I'll literally give it to you for free. Or you can go to master passive income.com forward slash free course. All one word for it. Master passive income.com forward slash free course.   I'll show you how to find if you are investing your area, that's great, but let's say you want to go into another area. I love investing out of state five different states now that I'm investing in how to build a business everywhere, anywhere in the country, how to scale to become financially independent. You can also find me quickly. I'll just share that master passive income, the podcast. Like I just love giving out so much more coaching on the podcast. I've had people binge the entire 400 episodes now, Jason, binge all of them and like DM me on Instagram. They'll say Dustin.   just from listening to your podcast, I started investing in real estate. I'm like, yes, that's exactly why I have the show. So yeah, one quick last thing. If you want to DM me, The Dustin Heiner on Instagram. love chatting with people. I love helping people. And in the end, when we all invest in real estate, everybody wins because we have great properties that people need to rent. We make money, property managers make money. We have a floor of income coming in.   But in the end, my goal is to help a million people. it's just another way that I can serve. But honestly, in the end, everybody wins.   Jason Hull (50:51) I love it. So they can text rental to 33777. They can go to masterpassiveincome.com slash free course. And they can go to masterpassiveincome.com to check out your stuff. then the, the Dustin Heiner, H-E-I-N-E-R.   Dustin Heiner (51:14) Correct.   More than likely you'll find me. I'm probably the only the Dustin, like if you just type that in, but man, I've been working really hard at Instagram. find out I actually kind of like it. I do like it. I'm almost 200,000 followers now. I didn't buy any of them. Like literally just hard work, putting in just great content, helping people.   Jason Hull (51:29) Yeah,   you're crushing it, man. I'm at 8,000, so I've got to figure out how to 10x my goal to that. So I'm working on that too. very awesome.   Dustin Heiner (51:38) We could definitely chat some more.   I could show you at least some insights of what I've done, but no, it's been great. I would love if your entire audience, all your property managers realize, let's just, it could be as simple as once a year, you just keep one for yourself. You find one, you buy it, and just year after year, you get more and more properties. I think that's a minimum you should be doing one a year.   Jason Hull (51:42) All right, we'll keep going.   So how do we start matchmaking your best investors that get it with my best property managers that get it? This is something for us to think about maybe offline. I don't know.   Dustin Heiner (52:08) Mmm.   Yes, we can   definitely chat through what it really comes down to is areas, know, areas like what cities are they investing in? But let's definitely chat because I think we could have a really good, really good way because I might. In fact, I while we are on this call, you know, have I have slack and that's where the community I've got thousands of students now, but we're in there chatting. I saw one note pop up, Christina. She's been with me for years and years and years. She's doing really well. And she was like, man, in Cleveland, like I have this property manager. I'm not going to name their name.   they're falling apart, I need another property manager, and so what it really comes down to, maybe you just help me know where they're managing, and then I could just point them to my students.   Jason Hull (52:48) Or   tell that person, if any of your investors see this episode or whatever, tell them to get their property managers to go talk to DoorGrow. Just say, look, you're not doing a great job. I'm actually considering finding another property manager. I think you should go listen to Jason and go talk to DoorGrow and get your shit together.   Dustin Heiner (53:05) That's a fantastic idea.   Absolutely.   Jason Hull (53:08) Because here's the thing, property managers do not wake up in the morning saying, I want to have a shitty business today. But most property managers suck. So where's the disconnect? The disconnect is they don't have the right strategies for growth. They're trying to do a bunch of digital marketing. There's very little search volume of people looking for property managers online. And usually the ones that are are the worst. They're the cheapest owners that view them as a commodity. They're at the end of the sales cycle. Word of mouth usually captures all the good stuff.   So these are the shitty scraps that fell off the word amount table. they're built, so they're spending money that they don't really have to get clients that they don't really want. And then they have these portfolios that are really difficult to manage. so then customer service is the first thing to go out the window because they're struggling. And I call it the cycle of suck. Take on any client, you have bad clients. You take on bad clients, you have bad properties. You have bad properties to deal with. The tenants are not gonna be happy. So you have bad tenants. And then you're gonna have a bad reputation. And that sums, and then what does that do?   helps you attract more bad owners. And so this sums up the whole industry in aggregate and that's our mission at DoorGrow is to disrupt that cycle of suck and we have a different cycle, a cycle of success where you're filtering at each stage and improving things at each stage. yeah.   Dustin Heiner (54:22) Fantastic,   man. I'm super pumped. I'm glad you're doing this because we need good property managers and property managers need to be buying properties themselves. So I appreciate having me on the show,   Jason Hull (54:32) Awesome, thanks for being here. Alright, so appreciate Dustin hanging out with us. If you felt stuck or stagnant and you want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com or if you're an investor and you're tired of your property manager but there aren't any other good ones either, then send them to doorgrow.com. Also join our free community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com.   on Facebook and if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.  

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Morgan Hamon, co-founder and president of EAG Dental Advisors, returns to the podcast to talk about dentistry financials. As a CPA, Morgan pulls from his experience to talk with Kiera about what it takes to be profitable (beyond revenue and expenses). Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today I am so jazzed. I have one of my absolute favorite guests back on the podcast, Morgan Hamon. He used to be with HDA. They have now upgraded their name to EAG Dental Advisors. Super excited. He's an incredible CPA, does all things dental, loves airplanes. He's been on the podcast so many times. We've had some good chats. Dear friend to me, Morgan, welcome back to the show. How are you?   Morgan Hamon (00:20) Ha ha.   Kiera, I'm doing good. It is so great to be with you and looking forward to our conversation today.   Kiera Dent (00:31) to you and me both. So I have to know since you love airplanes and it's in your background, are you a fan or not a fan of Top Gun? I just need to know.   Morgan Hamon (00:35) Mm-hmm.   You know, I have a soft spot   for that movie because when it came out in 1986, I was 15. And I, you know, I sort of set my sight. That definitely influenced me. said, that's what I want to do. So I went out and did it. And so.   Kiera Dent (00:46) Mmm.   So then how did you like Top Gun Maverick? was the second? Tell me, are you fan?   Morgan Hamon (00:56) That one, the purpose   of that movie was entertainment and it was entertaining, but it was a little, you gotta suspend disbelief a little bit. It was a little nostalgic because that was set in Naval Air Station, Lamar, which is where I was for eight years. So it was pretty cool seeing that and the flying scenes were real. And so they were all filmed out. It's called restricted area 2508, which is where we always used to fly. So it was pretty nostalgic seeing some of the flying scenes back where we used to go fly.   Kiera Dent (01:17) Mm-hmm.   Morgan Hamon (01:26) But technically, there's a little, like any movie, there's a little Hollywood going on there. But it was entertaining.   Kiera Dent (01:26) No.   can't   How cool though that they like made a spot for Iceman with him having throat cancer. I thought that was incredible. Like way to go Tom Hanks. So I know you guys didn't come to the podcast to hear Morgan and I talk about top men, but we're going to segue now because Morgan does all things. We love to talk profit. We love to talk taxes. We love to talk all things nerding out on CPA land, which I have really truly fallen in love with like understanding my numbers. So this is a soft spot for me, but   Morgan Hamon (01:39) Yes   Yep.   Hahaha   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (02:01) Morgan said he won the topic today, which I think is a sexy topic and I cannot wait where he said leadership relates to profitability. And I said, Morgan, sign me up. Here we go. So Morgan, this is our time. This is our topic because I absolutely agree with you that leadership does relate to profitability, but take it away. And then we're to dig into tax savings. We're going to dig into all this stuff and who knows where else we're going to go, but ⁓ it'll be a great one. It always is.   Morgan Hamon (02:16) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Well, think   this topic has evolved with me a little bit, because we've been doing this 15 years and going now. And so a lot of conversations over the years. And I've always thought about profitability, which let's face it, that's why we own businesses. We don't own businesses to pay tax. We own businesses to make a nice living and have some control over our lives. So you've to have profit, and it's hard owning a business. So if we don't have adequate profit, why bother? ⁓   Our mission has always been to really focus on profit, give our doctors feedback on what that profit is, and diagnose if things are, you know, if there's something that could put more money in their pocket. Now, with my CPA hat on, right, there's two parts of that profit equation. There's the expense side of the equation and the revenue side of the equation. And so for a lot of years, I mean, that's where our focus has been.   But I've recently, last year or two, I've really come to the conclusion, look, there's a third component there, right? And it's not math, I can't point to the P &L. But where this comes from is I get asked all the time about, and it's from the clients either considering a startup or purchasing a practice, and they'll say, okay, Morgan, you got clients all 50 states, like where's the great area? Where should I go where folks are doing well?   Kiera Dent (03:27) Ooh, I can't wait.   Morgan Hamon (03:47) I that question. I get asked, hey, do you have a special report for pediatric dentists? Because I'm going to be pediatric, so I'm going to be making more money kind of thing. Or I'll hear a report. Or I'll get a question that, do you have a report just for your clients in California? Because it's like way different out here. And I say, look, the answer is no. We have one report. In geography and specialty,   I think they may influence profitability, but that's not the deal breaker. We have plenty of clients who are specialists. The struggle, we have plenty of clients, like one of our longest term clients is in Nob Hill, San Francisco. She recently moved across the bay, but it's like the most expensive city on the planet. She killed a 55 % profit margin for like 10 years. So geography isn't, that's not how we connect the dots. I think we connect the dots with leadership.   Kiera Dent (04:33) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Morgan Hamon (04:43) You know, we have a lot of clients I've known for a long time. I've been with them along with their journey as I've been on my journey, which has been very rewarding. And I've come to the opinion that if we quantify success for a doctor and let's, and we'll talk a little bit more about this when we get to tax, but you know, is it money? Is it time? Is it all the above? If we look at, who's crossed the finish line? Who has the full deal? ⁓ It's the doctor that runs a tight.   Plain and simple. Like you can tell in me talking with them, I know them real well. You can tell by their numbers. Look, they're an amazing clinician, but they're also an amazing business leader. They know how to inspire their team. Their patients feel comfortable. They lead from the front. They just, they do it all. Those are the doctors that have the high profit margin and the high quality of life. It's not geography. It's not specialty, although that can have an influence.   That's the full package. So it is, yes, revenue, expenses, and how well do you lead your practice, in my opinion.   Kiera Dent (05:50) Morgan, I was so happy when I read that and when we were talking about what to bring on because I see it as well. I tell everybody, I can tell walking into a practice even before I walk into the practice, if I've met the leader of the practice, I usually can tell if this practice will be successful or not, truly based on the leader at the helm. And it's interesting because we did, I recently did this at our summit. So people were there, awesome.   Morgan Hamon (05:52) you   Kiera Dent (06:16) If they weren't, that's okay too. But we actually broke down and me and the consultants, we went through all of our clients. Like we looked at the clients, we looked at past clients, we looked at future clients, we looked at different pieces, what were our best clients, what were our worst clients. And I actually broke down, I'm trying to pull it up here, of like common themes of great practices and like great leadership and common themes of the not so good. And so some of the things I've seen in...   Morgan, I'm super curious to hear like what you'd add to our list. Cause I, you see it from a different perspective than we see it. So on my not so good list, these are the ones that like really they always are floundering is they don't trust their office manager. They're sometimes poor clinicians. Like they need to hire somebody else or get some training for that. ⁓ Poor leaders, they have team turnover constantly. They don't implement strategies. They're highly driven by emotion. They don't look at their numbers or their results.   Morgan Hamon (06:45) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   you   you   Kiera Dent (07:11) They do a lot of CE, but they never like implement. They have lots of coaches, but they don't trust and execute. They're half in on everything. So they're not like solid on anything. They want to pay to fix the problem with no self-realization identification that maybe they are the issue. They have ego fear with no accountability. And there's a lot of blame. Like everybody else is the problem. Are some of the things that I've seen and I don't know, like I know I'm putting you on the spot. didn't, I have my nice list over here, but is there anything else you see of patterns? I'm, you and I can both like,   Morgan Hamon (07:30) Mm-hmm. ⁓   Kiera Dent (07:41) in our Rolodex of humans we know are not so good leaders or the practices who aren't as profitable, are there any other things you've noticed in their leadership that maybe isn't as strong?   Morgan Hamon (07:41) No. Right.   Well, that was a very comprehensive list. Once we're done, I'm going to write all those down because I that's very good. If I were to summarize that, if we talk about leadership, it's really about ownership and engagement. You have to own it. Everything's your problem when you're the owner. There's another podcast I like.   Kiera Dent (07:58) Yeah, of course. I'll happily share. I will happily share. And if you get anything else, share back our way too.   Morgan Hamon (08:20) and it's nothing to do with dental, it's all about leadership. And there's a saying, and it's really stuck with me, and I swear I think about this every day, Kiera, when I think about my business and how do we keep doing a good job, is that if there's a problem in your organization, it's a leadership problem. You can trace it all the way back, go any direction you want, it's going to tie back to a leadership problem.   So, if something is going sideways, it ultimately comes back to your leadership as a business owner. So, maybe the staff, maybe there was a bad patient experience, something went sideways with the patient. Was that staff trained? Maybe they were trained, maybe they were not held accountable. Do you have a bad procedure? Maybe the procedure needs adapted. mean, we think about that all the time, constantly adapting, constantly tweaking, and I think you have to do that in any business. If, like you said,   in your list there if people don't want that accountability, there's always making excuses or they don't want to engage. They say, you know, and maybe they are a good clinician. They say, I'd rather just be in the operatory but my staff's a mess. Kiera, come on in here and whip them into shape and let me know when it's all good. You know, that's not how it works. That's not how it works.   Kiera Dent (09:32) Exactly. No, not   only they're part time. I'm not your manager. I'm not your leader. I'm not your boss.   Morgan Hamon (09:38) Right, or you know   what, I'm going to have an hour meeting with my accountant and that should solve it. Like, no, we're going to come up with some action items and then you need to execute those. So you have to own it. Everything's your problem when you own a business. ⁓ And if you own it and you engage, then I think we're on the right path to not be on that extensive list that you gave, which I just love.   Kiera Dent (10:03) right? Yeah, no, and I love it. And   it just made me actually think of something I heard a financial conference and they said EBITDA equals engagement. And I've thought about that a lot because the more engaged your team is, the more engaged you are, honestly, a lot of higher EBITDA there is, I won't leave our audience hanging. I do have the good list and maybe you can add to this to see. So the ones that I found like, that truly just knock it out of the park, these are our most successful right? I'm like, what is their DNA makeup that makes them this great leader?   Morgan Hamon (10:22) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (10:32) and it's their great implementers. They allow the teams to be free, like within the parameters. So they've got a great team culture. They're great at decision-making. They execute, they're consistent. They roll with the punches. They have long-term teams. They make their decisions based on numbers. They're great visionaries. And they know what they're working towards. They don't get distracted. So there's this laser focus that they have. ⁓ And on here, I would also say that they have massive ownership. And they also are not afraid to have the uncomfortable conversations with their team.   Morgan Hamon (10:52) Mm-hmm.   Thank   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (11:02) So   like they truly do, they're excellent at it. They might not be excellent communicators, but they're excellent at like tidying it up, driving their team for success. Those are some of the things I see, but I'm curious if there's anything else you'd want to add to that list because I think you're right. But I think that's a DNA makeup, right? It's people who are disciplined. If I go into the gym, they probably have like strong work ethic. They are laser focused. It's just like, it's who they are in all the aspects of our life, but I don't think they're necessarily born that way.   Morgan Hamon (11:10) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (11:30) I think a lot of them can be, but I think a lot of them create that over time as well. Like it's an evolution of them, not necessarily like, if I'm just born a great leader, like, no, they're constantly working on it, but I'm curious your thoughts.   Morgan Hamon (11:34) Mm-hmm.   Thanks   Yeah,   no, I think that's a good list. If I were to try to tie that together, I would say it's you lead from the front. you know, like all just a personal example for me, like responsiveness is a huge part of our culture. Like, you know, if clients reach out to us, they need to hear back like in a few hours, like today. Lead from the front. is not do what I say. It is do what I do and keep up. Keep up with me.   Kiera Dent (12:03) Yeah.   Morgan Hamon (12:12) Let me show you what I expect. You follow my example and let's go where I'm leading us. I think is when you own a dental practice, you have to do the same thing, whether that's in the daily huddle. You lead by example. If there's a certain patient experience you want your office to have, you have to lead that. They have to be emulating you and say, I sure hope I can do this as well as the doctor. ⁓ Lead from the front. I think you also have to make sure your team understands why their work is important.   Kiera Dent (12:42) cream.   Morgan Hamon (12:42) And   I do that all the time. Why is our work important as well? Because our clients are these dentists. They're drowning in debt. They don't necessarily learn how to run a dental practice in dental school. They're trying to put it all together to make a nice living. And they have probably eight or 10 employees that are accounting on them for their jobs. So our work matters. We're working with people's lives here. So you really have to... ⁓   I think articulate why the work's important and maybe that's not as challenging and don't practice because everybody knows. It's care. They're there to get care. They're in the chair. They're scared. They want to be comfortable and everything's going to be okay. I think you got to lead from the front. You got to say, look, let's do what I do and make sure you keep up with me.   Kiera Dent (13:32) Yeah, no, I love that. I just, think something that I love that you brought this up is I love when I have things internal, as much as it's annoying, that could actually help me become more profitable. It's like, hey, let me go to the gym and work out to be more disciplined. Let me read leadership books to learn how to lead. Let me practice uncomfortable conversations. Let me practice my decision-making. And the reality is like you becoming this person and leadership.   Morgan Hamon (13:34) you   Hehe.   Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (14:00) will equate to higher profitability. It's wild. Like I look back at maybe not so strong of leadership days and my business and profitability, I think definitely mirrored and matched where I was. And so also for us to say like, Hey, how do I maybe get to the next level? How can you evolve as a leader as well and be a bit stronger of that good version rather than the not so good version I think is really powerful.   Morgan Hamon (14:10) Mm-hmm.   Hehehe.   Yeah,   I think you really have to recognize whatever industry you're in that your technical skill and your leadership skill are completely different. You have to invest in those skills to acquire those and to maintain them. And just because you could be the most amazing CPA, just brilliant practitioner, that doesn't mean you're a good leader. You could be the most amazing clinician.   Kiera Dent (14:35) 100.   Morgan Hamon (14:51) and just do the most amazing work. That doesn't mean you're gonna be running a ⁓ great tunnel practice. You have to invest in those skills. Just being a smart person with some big degrees, that doesn't do it. You have to acquire those skills. And I didn't realize, I mean, when I was a younger guy in the Navy, I I learned all this. back then, I was just trying to do a good job and...   get killed and and make it all happen. I didn't realize all these amazing lessons and training I was learning because they, mean leadership is, I mean that's first and foremost what we're there to do and so I was very fortunate in that regard but I don't, you you can't, no matter what business you're in, can't rest on your laurels. You got to always be thinking about leadership. Am I being a good leader? Okay, this is going sideways. I need to lead the team back, you know. I can't just, you know, write a memo.   Kiera Dent (15:17) Yeah   Morgan Hamon (15:44) Hey everybody, this is where we need to be. Follow me. Keep up with me.   Kiera Dent (15:49) Yeah, no Morgan, that was such a brilliant piece and I really loved how you just highlighted it and so fun to see that what we see on the team side and the success of the growth and the production and the collections also now correlates with your financial PNL, ⁓ which I think is just magic and it all just ties together. But as you listen to this list and Morgan I talking about it, I also want to just say like if this does not light you up and you're like, ⁓ gosh.   Morgan Hamon (16:05) Mm-hmm   Kiera Dent (16:17) That's okay. You actually can just be an amazing clinician and have somebody actually be the great leader. Just because you opened the practice and you do the dentistry does not mean you need to be the leader of the practice. So I've seen some doctors actually be great implementers. Like they actually would rather execute, implement, do all the ideas and have somebody else be the visionary. That's okay too. And I think like my best thing is know thyself and be free. But if you want to be more profitable, look at this. And I want to take like a sharp   Morgan Hamon (16:18) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Kiera Dent (16:46) right turn Morgan and talk taxes. It's like, didn't know how to awkwardly like transition. So I'm just gonna like, but I want to talk taxes because I'm like, this also ties into the discipline of leadership, the ownership of leadership and like being freaking savvy to learn how to do taxes better. Like Morgan, I had this client the other day and we were talking and we built this like cute little overhead scorecard for people. We have the EBITDA on there. It comes from the CPAs. So we're like, just make it very simple, like black and white.   Morgan Hamon (16:53) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   you   Kiera Dent (17:15) And then I was like, wait a second, I should throw a tax bucket on there. So like what you're getting paid for your W-2 plus what your profit is, like that gets taxed. I have a doctor, she has been an owner, we're talking 20 plus years. She's like, Kiera, I never knew that my profit had to get taxed. Like I never knew that that extra cash, like I just thought that was cash that came to me. And I'm like, this is why doctors are always broke because they don't know how this works out. So I'm super excited to talk about.   Morgan Hamon (17:21) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   you   Mm-hmm.   No. Right. Mm hmm.   Kiera Dent (17:45) tax planning, it's mid-year, let's make sure you're not crying in December and like, popping the confetti.   Morgan Hamon (17:46) Yeah.   Yeah, right. And   crying in December. if you recall, ⁓ my topic was just kind of the psychology of tax. And again, this has evolved over time with a lot of conversations. I think...   Kiera Dent (17:54) was New York I'm   The   is like the wise sage over there, Morgan. Like you got, like, just, you're just hanging out over there.   Morgan Hamon (18:09) Well, it's always trying to,   you know, I think about my conversations. How do we kind of empower these dentists to achieve this? And it's all through, I think, education. You've got to understand why. Like this doctor, 20-year-old, didn't understand.   Kiera Dent (18:29) I was like, no, I'm not wearing a strip.   Morgan Hamon (18:30) Every initial consultation   I'm having now with a startup doctor, we do a tax 101 just real quick, takes me like five minutes. Let's get our hands on some concepts here. Why I think this is important to really understand and talk about tax, just kind of how it makes us feel, is because we've had some instances where you have a doctor, and let's just say on our previous conversation, this is how we're gonna tie it together, right? So we have the doctors on that secondary list,   They're rock star. They're killing it. They're making tons of cash. They're engaging the right people. They got the right people in place, and it ultimately results in a lot of success. I've seen people do that, but then when it comes time for tax, they lose sight of all that, and they get just really obsessed about that tax bill. They lose what I'll think of as like peace and fulfillment.   just at the start of the call, I recently got remarried and my wife and I, we talk about that a lot, peace and fulfillment. Why do we have that in life? And that's what we're working for. And I think when you own a business, you're working towards something, right? And we want to have that peace and fulfillment. And I've seen that just get destroyed with people because they get very emotional and overly focused on their tax. And I see the logic just sort of exit stage left.   and we just end up with this very emotional reaction to tax. And who I tend to really direct this conversation to is not necessarily what you just described, Bill. That's kind an interesting one. Usually if someone's been making great money 20 years, they kind of know the program. It is, Kiera, it's the newer owners making real money for the first time in their lives. And that is where there's an adjustment. There's a mental journey they have to go on.   Kiera Dent (20:21) 100.   Morgan Hamon (20:29) And so what I thought today, like, I guarantee you we have some listeners as soon as they heard tax, they're like, what's on their mind is, what's the secret? How do I save more on tax? Well, it does. So, right? So we're going to get to that. All right. Well, we'll get to that. But before we do that, I thought, let's have some straight talk.   Kiera Dent (20:40) It does feel like the CPA's hold back or the secret robot. mean, tell me your Harry Potter rules there, Morgan. I just want to know. I need to find one CPA that just knows the secrets of the trade.   Yeah.   Morgan Hamon (20:58) Let's have some straight talk on tax. Why is this emotional? Why is this hard? Let's just take the journey of a doctor that is an associate doing pretty well with their W-2. We all think that we all go in W-2s. You have mandatory withholding. It comes out of your check, gets fired off to the government. You get your net check and you might look at your paycheck and go, what's all this stuff? don't know. I got my net check. I'm to plan my life around this net check. Then we do the tax return.   There's always a little settle up. You might owe a little, get all my back. You always hope to get a little money back, but generally you just plan your life with never having your hands on that money as a W-2. So now we own a business. You get all that money and then we now have to turn around and pay it back. Now keep in mind your tax rates. Okay. If you are married, Google the 2025 tax rates, right? That's what they are. That's what they are. If you're an employee.   Kiera Dent (21:44) Yep.   Morgan Hamon (21:55) That's what they are if you're the owner of a pass-through business. They are the same. But that act of having to turn around and write a check just is, you gotta become comfortable with that and it's an adjustment. ⁓ And here's the other thing where if we just, okay, let's take all our emotions about tax, let's just kind put it over the side and let's just talk very logically.   Kiera Dent (22:12) I agree.   Morgan Hamon (22:23) If you're gonna make three times as much money, what's also going to be three times as much? Your tax. But it's actually maybe a little bit more, right? We got a progressive tax system, right? So, I think when people become high earners, and they go through the grieving process,   Kiera Dent (22:36) see what we feel. It's awesome.   Morgan Hamon (22:48) And I guarantee you, I'll just talk through this briefly, but Gary, you and I have both been through this. And the doctors that are killing it and making lots of money, they've probably been through it too. But if we think about the grieving process, what's the first step? All right, it's denial. Okay, it's the first year you went from making 200 grand as an associate and now making 700 grand. And we've already written off the equipment and now we got 700 grand income. And you get your tax plan and you're like, what? This isn't for me.   Kiera Dent (22:54) Yes.   Morgan Hamon (23:17) Honey, think our email got hacked. We got this, this can't be right. This isn't mine. You go full on denial, this can't be right. And then we're like, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, that is your tax plan. And then we immediately go to anger. I'm so mad. thought Morgan was, I thought Morgan was this cool guy. I'm mad at him.   Kiera Dent (23:22) I'm   Hmm?   I need a different CPA, Morgan. I'm finding a different Harry Potter wizard. I need someone better than you.   Not today, I'm out of here.   Morgan Hamon (23:45) You get angry.   You're like, what the heck? I got this tax bill. So you get kind of angry. And then you go into bargaining and say, you know what? I'm going to go buy a CEREC machine tomorrow. Say, OK. I mean, do you need that? mean, do you do a lot of grounds? So you get all, I'm going to do this, this, and then where people are really in troubles and they stop making their estimated payments. Well, this can't be right. This can't   Kiera Dent (23:53) Hahaha.   Ha   Morgan Hamon (24:14) I'm going to go, I'm going to buy this and this and this. And then we start, there's a 6,000 pound truck. I'm going to go buy this big truck. And I kind of joke around a little bit. Yeah. So you get into bargaining, right? And then you're like, OK, well, gosh, I don't need any other equipment. I'm already doing the stuff. And then you get into depression. You're like, really? Am I going to? I guess this just stinks. And then finally, get to acceptance.   Kiera Dent (24:23) G-Wagon right now. I'm gonna brand it.   Morgan Hamon (24:43) and you realize if you're a high earner, there is a corresponding bill. Now that can be managed. There are ways for legal, perfectly legal tax avoidance to get into the so-called secrets. But you go through this journey. This has just been my, I guess, my 15-year research project. I've been through it personally myself, and I'm a CPA, and I still like writing this check. Dang. ⁓   Kiera Dent (25:06) same.   you   Morgan Hamon (25:13) But,   so that's what we have to, I think, wrap our head around, you understand that. And I encourage people, look, if you're a dentist, and maybe this dentist joins the seven figure club, right? You got seven figure profit, that's pretty amazing, right? That's really good income. But you will have a six figure tax bill. And that's okay. That's okay. ⁓   Kiera Dent (25:37) You will.   Morgan Hamon (25:42) And you just, got to get through to acceptance and take comfort in that you are engaged to take advantage of the legal opportunities that are out there for proper tax avoidance. And that's the, we talk about the secrets, you know, I see these clowns on, on YouTube of like, ⁓ I know the secrets of the tax code. mean, if you see that, I mean, just run. ⁓ There are no secrets. They're all well-known. Like I know all our competitors in our, the dental field and I'm on friendly terms with many of them.   We all know these. We all know the stuff that can be done. Legal tax avoidance. here's, we'll call it the secret, ⁓ Dentists, everyone's part of it. Here's the secrets, okay? Here's the secret. When you have a pass through business, which is what these dental practices are, right? So the business, and this will shed some light on your client 20 years, right? Your business does not pay income tax. The business tax return   Kiera Dent (26:22) Everybody's perking up right now, Morgan. They're like, okay.   Morgan Hamon (26:42) is math. It's absurdly complex math, but it quantifies the profit that's passed it through and gets listed on your personal tax return. And you owe income tax on that profit. That's what it means by pass through. And it's all ordinary income tax. There's no special tax rate for business owners. It's ordinary income tax. So how do we save money? Here's the secret. We have to capture as many expenses that we're otherwise incurring and capture those as business deductions.   When we do that, that lowers profit. Less profit passes through to the personal tax return, you pay less tax. That's the secret. So you have to execute the strategies, right? The home office is perfect for doctors. Totally substantiated, totally mainstream deduction. That's what justifies the car.   You can deduct a car, but that means you have to be engaged. You have to get the mile IQ. You have to understand what is your business percentage use. You have to do this right. You have to document it. There's things you have to do right. Take your board meeting. ⁓ If the cash flow allows, have a qualified retirement plan. Take full advantage of that. ⁓ If you're okay with having staff over to your house, have those meetings at home and have the office rent it from you. again, these aren't... People know these. This isn't...   I'd love to tell you I'm some genius that went and studied the tax code and formulated all these myself. This is out there. What you're engaging with your CPA is folks that will actually bring this to you and do it, but ultimately the doctor has to do it. What I think about is if someone thinks, well, I'm just going to have an hour meeting with my account at the end of the year and they're just going to take care of all of this. That's like saying, you know what?   Kiera Dent (28:07) haha   cringe.   Morgan Hamon (28:30) I know I need to work out and eat right to be healthy but I'm just going to go meet with my doc this fall and that should do it. Maybe they'll give me a pill that'll make me in shape and healthy. But no, you got to do the stuff. So if your accountant tells you, look, take a board meeting, document it properly, there's a proper way to do it, you got to do it. That's how we say the proper legal avoidance. your account comes to you and says, look, it's time to be an S-Corp,   Kiera Dent (28:51) Mm-hmm.   Morgan Hamon (29:00) because the profit is appropriate, you gotta follow the instruction. There's a procedure there and it's gonna save a lot of money on self-employment payroll tax if it's done correctly. You gotta listen, but you gotta engage. There's action items. And so we, ⁓ every September, I made a checklist. You know, again, Navy guy, right? I got a checklist. Log in, do the checklist. I call it our business tax savings maximizer. That's the flashiest, catchiest name I could think of. But like, log in and do it. That's the secret.   Kiera Dent (29:19) I love it.   you   Morgan Hamon (29:29) So, you know, for those listeners that waiting for the secret, that's it, right? We got to capture expenses as business deductions and there is action items for the doctor. It requires that engagement. And to circle back to where what you said earlier, like you can't come into the office and just fix it for them. They've got responsibilities on things to do too and that's the same with tax policy.   Kiera Dent (29:53) I thought that was such a beautiful way. And as you were going through the phases of grief, I'm like, oh yeah, I definitely lived all of those.   Thanks for kicking it off with Top Gun, ending with like tack strategy. Thanks for sharing some of the tips. But truly super honored to work with you and love what you guys are doing for dentists out there.   Morgan Hamon (30:04) Alright.   Kiera,   I always enjoy our visits and look forward to each one. So I appreciate you having me. I really enjoyed it.   Kiera Dent (30:16) course. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on The Dental A Team podcast.  

Tiff and Dana perform a practice autopsy of sorts — one of Dana's star students, and what's been put in place to help them thrive. The two discuss key systems, metrics, leadership, and how to stay committed to all of it. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners. We are back live today it feels like you know it's so weird Dana to still be like on video it still weirds me out but whatever we don't do as many as Miss Cara Dutt does. So we are here today to chat with you guys we are so excited I've got Dana here and I have just like   shocked her with reality today that I actually I want to hear about one of her incredible offices that she's been working with. And before we dive in, I want you guys to just know that we love what we do. We love helping you guys. We love consulting. We love helping you guys when you're not actually clients yet. And we want you to know that we're always here for you guys. Reach out.   Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. always here. Our social medias. Dana, she does this incredible video, live video. I think it's live. I don't even know anymore. On Mondays, it used to be Fridays, it used to be Donuts with Dana. Now it's Motivational Monday or something to that effect. you guys, legitimately Dana is there, just like ready to answer questions. She takes ideas. So if there's things you guys are working on or...   things you guys are trying to work through, send them in to us. Dana's always looking for more ideas on hot topics. We take them from things that we're talking to practices about and then what we're implementing so that you guys always have the best, most useful information, but we love suggestions. Same as topics for these suckers. We're always looking for suggestions for these and if you're not a part of our newsletter crew yet, you better go subscribe because we've got a ton of newsletters that come out as well. all the ways that you guys can reach out to us. If you're clients, guys, gosh, I don't, Dana, I don't even.   I don't even get suggestions from my clients on things they want to hear from us. And my clients, and I know yours do too, they listen to all of these suckers. So all of my clients out there, all Dana's clients out there, thank you for listening. But hey guys, we're here for the suggestions. We're just always thinking of everything. Dana, do you ever get suggestions?   Dana (01:54) No, no, ⁓ no, I get asked about what we're going to talk about today   The Dental A Team (01:58) Yeah, I was   like, as I'm sitting here like asking a whole slew of people for suggestions, I'm like, hey, I've got a handful of people out there that aren't even suggesting. So I need to be, I need to be more open about that. But today, I'm really excited to hear about this. Dana has been working her tail off with all of her practices. She works really, really hard. Dana, you are the grit to the fullest in so many ways and solution oriented.   For those of you who don't know, those are two of our seven core values. And honestly, you embody all of them. But today is really about grit, solution-oriented, passion for excellence, and results-focused. These are some of the key pieces of what I think you did really, really well, with these results that this client has exceeded. And I'm just excited to hear about them. I threw Dana for a loop today, reminding her that today is her   practice I wanted to hear about and that I'm gonna let her kind of take the floor for for a lot of today I have a lot of questions to ask and and kind of chime in but Dina I really just am so excited to hear about them, but Really, how are you doing? And how are how are your clients doing overall? Like how are you doing in the world of consulting? We're about halfway through the year now, which is well a little over I guess which is wild to me   It's crazy that 2025 is almost gone, but how are you doing over there and how are your clients doing?   Dana (03:24) I'm doing pretty good. Thanks for asking. feel like 2025 has been like a wild year, a little bit different for some practices, but I feel like they're all digging in. Everybody is willing to like do the things, work really hard, talk to their team, build in leadership. I'm super proud of my clients and their perseverance throughout this year and their ability to just kind of like pivot and push where is needed.   And I think a lot of that is getting clients to look a little bit more at their numbers, to look a little bit more at what they tell them. I think it's really made a huge difference for a lot of practices this year. And so I'm just, yeah, always super proud of my clients. They're just really blessed to be able to be a part of their lives, a part of their practice and their journeys.   The Dental A Team (04:06) Yeah, I agree. think coming off of December of 2024 was a wild ride for a lot of practices, November and December rolling into January. And I feel like it's just been this kind of like ebbs and flows, ups and downs, the whole, you know, almost seven months now for a lot of practices. But I know on our, on our doctor only mastermind for our clients, our internal, you know, clients are non-shared when   Last night, there were just so many questions around that as well. And I remember somebody asked like, it normal to have had bad months? And is everybody experiencing last month, bad months or last couple? And I remember a couple of the consultants were like, well, actually, like, haven't really seen that the last couple of months. But when I sat back and I thought about it, I'm like, it has ebbed and flow, you know, flowed quite a bit for practices in general. But I think what we're starting to see is that I'll use the word again, the grit.   that a lot of our clients really persevered through January through March. They started reaping those benefits April to current. And so when the question was asked, was a newer client of ours who had asked like, this, are you guys seeing this across the country? really, most of us consultants were like, no, actually not really. We're seeing some of the highest months we've ever seen in our clients. But I think that had something to do with it was really that they had the accountability.   of their systems and of their numbers. Like you said, we really dug in deep and forced our clients to really truly learn their numbers better than we ever have this year. And really always looking back at them and always applying the information to the next steps. And I think it made a massive difference within our client base because I think overall we've seen a massive increase from end of year last year to mid year so far this year.   Dana (05:56) Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I feel like even clients who maybe they escaped the like November, December, January, then they had like the February, March, right. And but I do feel like April, it's like everybody kind of really dug in and kind of climbed out of that little bit of that.   The Dental A Team (06:05) Totally.   Dana (06:14) dip that we had there for the beginning of the year or the end of last year. And so yeah, I am just really, it was interesting to hear on the doctor mastermind and just that like clients really did dig in and they've had so much grit because there was a little bit of a rocky end of start of 2024, 25.   The Dental A Team (06:30) Yeah,   yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. ⁓ I love it. And I have so much fun on those meetings and hearing all the doctors and I think we had Moola on recently and we get to have, you know, just so many really cool things for them. So it was just awesome. That was something though that kind of reminded me of what you're going to talk about today with your client. And I wanted you guys to...   not just here, like we're not just here to brag, like, of course, I want to brag on our clients and how great they're doing and what they're able to accomplish with the tools that they're given, but also to talk about the tools that they're given. So Dana, like really take us through, I want to hear how this practice is doing. What are their accomplishments? What are their, you know, increases in revenue and everything? then on the flip side of that, really, what did they dig in and implement really well this year that has gotten   gotten them there these these changes and actually might not even be just this year like you've been working with this specific client for a little bit now so let me all the things I want to hear about it I'm excited   Dana (07:30) Yeah.   Yeah, this plan   is really near and dear to my heart because they were one of my very first solo clients. And so it's just been fun over the years to really see them dig in grit like no other. I know on their end, it hasn't always been easy. We've had to some tough conversations. We've had to look at some tough numbers. We've had to set some really tight budgets that maybe they didn't love, but they did it and have just been massively successful ⁓ because of it.   ⁓ And so I am just really, really proud of them. They've brought in a ton of leadership, a lot of team accountability. so, you know, starting out as just kind of a baby practice really with not a ton of systems. ⁓ So first year we spent heavy, heavy building systems, really getting them to talk as a team, to work as a team, to be accountable to each other. You know, so things like morning huddles and actually setting goals that they actually talked about and starting to look at numbers. And I remember   know that first conversation of like, I can't really talk about numbers, right? That's just profit. They look at that as like take home and like, now to the point of where like, not necessarily obsess over numbers, but a little bit right there, the tracking tons of things and even department metrics and the team is really involved in setting goals and setting quarterly focuses and she's, you know, brought in an office manager and just grown even the leadership in the practice we're talking about here soon.   ⁓ building more of a leadership team. And so it's just really, really cool to see someone come in and evolve from systems to just like massive growth ⁓ and a lot of change. And so, yeah, we focus on systems very heavily. Then we started to focus on leadership. Then we started to focus on growth. So we've got, you know, went from a part-time associate to now a full-time associate to now like ⁓ a buying of a space.   The Dental A Team (09:13) Yeah.   Dana (09:31) And   a build out. it's just been really, really fun to see that when we focus in on the things that are really important, that like the push and the magic that happens from it. ⁓ And so this has just been a practice. It's just been so fun to be a part of. ⁓ And we've had to do a lot of, because of the amount of growth that they came in wanting, right? We always talk about vision with clients and like, do you want to be three years and where do you want to be five years from   The Dental A Team (09:33) Mm-hmm.   Dana (10:01) now so like hearing that hey I want to be an owner of a building and I want to pretty much double the size of my practice in that time frame and and I also want to do a little bit less dentistry that takes a lot of   intentional movement, a lot of projections, a lot of even, you know, I know we've even talked about where you want to go knowing when you have to hire people and when you have to bring people on and when is the right time to add an associate. And then on the flip side of that, like, how do we keep expenses in line so that we can make this dream happen? How do we keep expenses so that we've got the profit to be able to expand and to be able to purchase a property? And sometimes those conversations are uncomfortable, right? Because like we   want all the this is this is a doctor who really appreciates team whose love language a little bit is like giving and showing appreciation and you know having to like home that in and be like hey I want you to celebrate your team when they go above and beyond and they crush these milestones we can't do that just for doing jobs though because again remember this vision right we want this we want this building we want this expanded team we want to be able to like be a part of more people's lives in the community so it's just been so fun   but I will say the biggest thing that like having to push on my end especially is just the intentionality that like the things that we put into place are to truly get them to where they ultimately want to be and and I feel like sometimes that's why we're brought in is because like they know what the vision is they know where they want to be but like they have no idea the path   The Dental A Team (11:25) Yeah.   Dana (11:43) to get them there. And so this has just been like a uniquely fun ⁓ client to be a part of.   The Dental A Team (11:50) That's awesome. So it's been about, I want to say like two years, little two years ish, or is it three now? my gosh, I'm a year behind you guys, it's fine. Time evades me, so three years. So when this specific client came on, I'm just gonna summarize a little bit. So it sounds like this client came on and they had one and a half doctors including themselves. They probably had what, three hygiene?   Dana (11:57) It's three going on four.   At the time it was just her, single doctor. Just her, single doctor, two hygiene, you know, two assistants, one front office. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (12:17) Trust her. Single doctor.   Perfect.   So we have a very small team ⁓ from the outside looking in and a vision of owning their own building, ⁓ like literally the building. And what would you say their yearly production collections was? Probably right under a million.   Dana (12:39) At the time around,   I'd say between $7,5800.   The Dental A Team (12:43) Yeah, 7, 5800.   So you guys, you can imagine owning a building on that, right, that's a stretch that's going to take a little bit of time. then fast forward, you know, now three years going on board, we've got a full-time associate in place. And how many hygienists? Four hygienists. Two dentists would mean at least probably four assistants, if not five.   Dana (13:00) There's four.   The Dental A Team (13:08) Four assistants, so three, four front office, probably including an office manager. So we've more than doubled, right? Or right at doubled our entire team, which means also, right? That we've doubled cost. So I think, Dana, what you did really, really well is that you were able to take from the beginning this client's initial goals. She said, this is my dream. And you said,   How are we gonna get there? So what you've been able to do with her is really take the financial aspect of this client and say, okay, this is where we're at, but this is what we need. And so everyone listening, something that I really want you to understand is that when you have a goal in mind, right, I talk about vision boards a lot and I talk about vision boards because I think that they're really cool. If you don't know what a vision board is, dang it, you're too young, go Google it, it's fine.   If you're a millennial, you know what a vision board is, go get your magazines. But I always say like, we do these vision boards and we're like, you know, we're gonna put an airplane on there and a picture of Mickey Mouse and I'm gonna take my kid to Disneyland. And we just put it on there and we put it on the wall and eventually we forget about it and we stop doing it and we get to the end of the year and we're like, shoot, I never got to Disneyland, right? But what we could do is say, I'm gonna go to Disneyland.   And then we say, okay, well, what is it going to entail to get to Disneyland? Right? I live in Arizona. We're both in Arizona here. I can drive to Disneyland for sure. Right. So what's the gas going to be? ⁓ it's about seven hours for me. It's probably far more for Dana. So we're probably going to fly. I'm not, I'm not trying to make that drive, right? I can, but I'd rather fly. So what are the flights going to cost for how many people? What's a car when I get there? What's a hotel going to cost?   What does Disney access cost? Because that's a feat in itself, right? And then how are we going to eat, right? We got souvenirs. We've got food in Disney. We've got dinners, okay? So with that, can price it all out. And it's so much easier, I think, for us to visualize doing this in our personal lives, because it's like, well, why would you ever say, like, we're going to Disneyland on July 17, but you have no idea how much it's going to cost. Believe me, I've done it before.   You'll make it if you have credit card, Dana can talk to you about how to get out of credit card debt. ⁓ But you can do it, but it would be crazy, right? It's dumb. So you're going to project and you're going to say, this is how much money I need to have in my travel fund in order to get my family to Disneyland. These are the dates I need to have it by because I can't buy tickets the day before, right? Flights. You can't buy Disney tickets the day before anymore because you got to block the date out.   So you've got to have all of this projected with a buy-win date. So if you're trying to get to Disneyland, you're going to price point it all out, and then you're going to work backwards. You're going to say, when do I have to have all of these things done? By what date do I have to have how much money? Then you're going to set those mile markers. So with clients, this is the same thing that we do with your goals, and it's the same thing Dana did for this specific practice. This practice owner said, I want to own   the building, I want to have this size of a practice. want to, I know I've had multiple clients say, I want to make this much money. I know I had a client who was in similar size situation when they first started and the biggest goal was to make a million dollars. I said, great, well we're at 550 now, let's see. He's like, my five year goal is to make a million dollars. Well guess what, we did it in three. Because we.   we projected it. And so what you've been able to do with this client is really project out. think the most fun piece, and I've done this with clients too, so I know, tell me if you think there's more fun. I always felt like the most fun part of it was being able to see what, if we got to this level of financial growth. So if we got to this level of production and collections and this close to ⁓ practice ownership, like building ownership,   This is how many people you're gonna need to support that dollar amount. So when you look at production, you say, okay, well, how much can one doctor support in production? How many team members does it take to support that doctor, to support the production, and then ramp it from there? So then it doesn't become such a pie in the sky dream of a number, it becomes a reality. And then you can say, okay, well, just like I said, Disneyland, it's a buy win date.   Right? So by this date, we need to have an associate hired because we need at least 90 days onboarding with an associate before they're really going to be producing anything, really. So if we need that associate to stay on track, we need that associate producing $90,000 by December. We've got to have someone in place by June at the latest. Right? So we've got to start looking for an associate.   probably February to give ourselves a really good lead time. And Dana, I think that's something that you've done really well for all of your clients, but for specifically this one we're talking about today, I think you did really well at projecting out the team member aspect of it too, and the hiring process so that that doctor could be prepared for the size that they were gonna have, and then applying that there to the financials. So you broke down for them great.   This is what the team cost will likely look like. This is your BAM, your bare ACE minimum is how we like to say it. And this is what has to happen in order for all of this to work. And then Dana, you said they had grit, they did it. And now one of the things that I picked out from your statement that I think everyone should walk away with is that you said you guys together, number one together, you got them looking at their numbers. That is the first step. Personally,   Professionally, the first step in making anything work when it comes to finances is actually looking at them. So congratulations and kudos on that. Second thing that I picked up was that together you guys created budgets and they stuck to them. They actually did them. And it doesn't mean they had to eat top ramen or get off brand flowable. It was like, these are your budgets and we're going to stick into it. And the best part about a budget, Dana, in my opinion for dental practices is like,   No, you don't have to buy the cheap flowable. But if your production and collections aren't supporting what you're buying, that's the issue. So most of the time, your supply should reflect, right? Your order should reflect the supply need. Yeah. So tell me quickly just a little bit about that. Was there a spot where you were like, no, you gotta buy the ramen?   Dana (19:55) The kind of dentistry   The Dental A Team (20:08) No, you got to get back on budget. You've got to stick to this. How did you hold them accountable?   Dana (20:13) God.   They did really well I think of I will say you know they have a fantastic office manager who was on board and wanting to know more about that side and wanting to know more about the budgeting side and the expense side so I will say they did really great at setting their budgets every month looking at it and sticking to it I think the piece that maybe we struggled with a little bit that eventually they saw like wow it's super important to do that is to just look at the expenses month over month   ⁓ I think they were great about setting the budgets great about sticking to them It just took a little bit more time and know we've got to pull those P &Ls we've got to pull those expense reports every single month and we really have to look at it and Getting them really to narrow down I think the the key or like the green light that went on was getting them to come up with this is truly our fixed costs for every single month and so when it got to the point where When you look at it and it's outside of that we've got to dig in and we've got to figure out what's   happening or where money is going because it's outside of what the norm is. so digging in and getting that piece in place, I think really comfortable about talking about practice numbers. The other side of it was a little bit more uncomfortable. And that's okay. You know, but I think they saw the importance of also connecting those dots and being able to share with the office manager and share with the team some of that because that was a little bit more uncomfortable. And so just super proud that they were able to step outside.   of that comfort level because so much of the time doctors want to hold those numbers close to their vests and it's okay to hold part of those numbers close to you where the pieces that you really don't or are super uncomfortable sharing. Again, if we want team buy-in, if we want our office manager to be able to help with these things and to really stick to budgets, they've got to understand those numbers too.   The Dental A Team (22:03) Yeah, yeah, that was beautiful. I would say for any doctors who are out there listening today, whether this exact story replicates what your goal is, or if you are able to see semblances of it in your own story, like take some of that away. And if you've got a goal, I don't care what it is, we apply the same standards to every goal. personal and professional, like apply the same standards, make sure it's a smart goal. And   Project it out. So I always look and Dana, I think we all did. It's like we look at the end goal and then we literally just work backwards. So find your goal. If you're not comfortable with numbers, get comfortable with numbers. It's worth it. It's so worth it. If you need help getting comfortable with numbers, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are here for you. It's something we're working really hard with a lot of our teams on and I promise you, teams, even though they're not saying it, they're not like, hey, tell me our goals, they do better.   They want to know the goals. They need to know the goals. They need to know what they're working towards and for more than just an emotional space. The emotional space of we're here for patient care, fantastic. But how do I know black and white measurements that I have accomplished that? That is a very different feeling than just emotionally satisfying myself every day because that usually is going to go the negative. You're going to find everything wrong you've done. So soapbox.   So go learn your numbers you guys if you haven't I want you to listen to this again Listen to everything Dana is saying Dana. You did awesome this this practice you guys Numbers wise Dana just to give them an idea. We said that they were you know 750 or so when they started They have doubled in size including their doctor. Where are they projecting this year?   Dana (23:54) they should hit 2.4 this year.   The Dental A Team (23:56) 2.4 you guys that's massive 2.4 so within the last three years Dana has worked with this client and they have gone from just under a million to 2.4 by doubling in size so yes their employee costs went up yes there's a there's a cost for the owner doctor to have an associate so there is there is a period of time where you will make less and you will be pouring into your team build   but on the other side of it, has more than doubled ⁓ or this client has more than doubled and not only size but in income as well. So kudos Dana, kudos to your client, kudos to all of Dana's clients and our clients and I know you guys all work really, really hard. So go look at your numbers and if you take nothing away from today, please take away from Dana the idea of really getting comfortable at least talking to your office manager about this if you don't have an office manager.   Maybe it's your spouse, maybe it's your consultant, someone that you can really truly get honest with about it. So Dana, congratulations. Thank you so much for taking today on and telling me about your client. You're an amazing consultant and we're so happy to continue having you here with Dental A Team.   Dana (25:11) Thanks, Tiff. Thanks for having me.   The Dental A Team (25:13) Of course. All right, everybody. ⁓ Go listen again. Dana, you did incredible. Go take all her tidbits. Drop us a five star review. You'll be letting Dana know that she did awesome. But also, I would love to hear what you guys took away from today as well. So drop us a five star review. We're excited to hear from you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com as always, and go catch Dana on Instagram on Mondays. And we'll catch you next time.

Title: Stop Chasing the Woman in the Red Dress: Multifamily Is the Smartest Move with Joe Fairless Summary: In this conversation, Joe Fairless and Seth Bradley discuss the importance of authenticity in business, the current state of the multifamily real estate market, and effective strategies for raising capital. Joe shares insights on sticking with multifamily investments despite market fluctuations, leveraging technology like AI and EOS for operational efficiency, and the significance of building authority and expertise in the field. The discussion also touches on personal reflections and aspirations, emphasizing the value of character and commitment in both business and personal life. Links to watch and subscribe:   Bullet Point Highlights: Authenticity is key in business interactions. Focus on your strengths and expertise. The multifamily market fundamentals remain strong. Utilize technology to enhance capital raising efforts. Building authority is crucial for new capital raisers. Networking through influential connections can be effective. Character is more important than reputation. Sticking to one niche can lead to greater success. Continuous learning and adaptation are essential. Coaching and mentoring can be fulfilling personal pursuits. Transcript:  Joe Fairless (00:03.629) Hey, how you doing?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:04.881) Alright man.   How are you? I don't know if we've actually met in person or not, but funny, I'll share the story once we start officially recording, but once upon a time when I was trying to find my place in this syndication world, had a phone call with you and it was awesome to actually get to speak with you at the time because it was just like, whoa, this is Joe Fairless, right? So it was a huge deal, so it's awesome to have you on the show.   Joe Fairless (00:34.966) You know what? I take notes of every conversation and I see it was around May of 2019. Yeah, yeah, I see that. It's awesome. Well, looking forward to every five years we should do this.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:43.988) There you go. There you go. Awesome, man. Awesome.   Yeah, let me...   Seth Bradley, Esq. (00:53.1) Sounds good, man. Sounds good. Sounds good. So just to give you a little bit of groundwork here. So I'm a securities attorney by trade. I've raised capital for syndications, those sorts of things. I'm currently with Tribest, I'm chief legal officer over there. So we do, put together fund to funds in a box for capital aggregators. And I'm rebranding the podcast. So once upon a time it was Passive Income Attorney. I was really focused on bringing in investors into my deals, raising capital, that sort of thing.   Now I'm rebranding this as raising the bar gonna be kind of more of a general General podcast on business and raising capital and in real estate that sort of thing. So It's gonna be more of a general audience before it was past investors This is gonna be more kind of business people active investors because I'm actively trying to bring in you know capital raisers and People like that. They're putting deals together for my law firm and for for tribe vest   Joe Fairless (01:33.998) Mm-hmm.   Joe Fairless (01:48.354) Mm-hmm.   Joe Fairless (01:51.884) Makes sense. Thanks for that context.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (01:53.544) Yeah, cool cool. So and then format wise we'll just do it'll be pretty short We're gonna do like 25 minutes 30 minutes And then we'll go into kind of these like mini segments because I want to do these mini episodes And I think I sent those over to you one is just million dollar Monday. Just kind of how you made your first million How you made your last million how you're make your next that sort of thing and then the next one is the the 1 % segment which is kind of you know, how did you become basically?   Joe Fairless (02:00.504) Sweet.   Joe Fairless (02:15.47) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:21.364) 1 % like the best top 1 % in what you do and that sort of thing and just kind of giving actionable steps to the listeners about how they can get there too.   Joe Fairless (02:25.442) Mm-hmm.   Joe Fairless (02:30.314) Awesome. Sounds good. Sounds like fun.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (02:32.98) Cool. All right, man. Well, we're already recording, so I'll just kind of jump into it and then we'll make the, I'll make the cuts later. cool. Welcome to Raise the Bar with me, your host, Seth Bradley, where we have elevated conversations on raising capital, real estate, and entrepreneurship. Today, we have an incredible guest, Joe Fairless. If you've been living under a rock, then maybe you haven't heard of Joe, but everybody in my industry knows Joe as an industry leader, a thought leader.   real estate entrepreneur, extraordinaire, marketer, master marketer, all of the above. So Joe, welcome to the show.   Joe Fairless (03:10.36) Looking forward to our conversation, Seth.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:12.884) for sure man. So, you know, I like this question because it's kind of unusual and I have a hard time answering it and you might too, but we'll see. you know, when a stranger asks you what you do and it just comes up to you maybe at a conference or on the streets, what do you say?   Joe Fairless (03:28.398) I'd I buy apartment buildings.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (03:30.546) I love it. Keeping it simple, man. I guess that was an easier answer than I anticipated.   Joe Fairless (03:35.182) Well, yeah, I've been to in my early days I went to seminars and they have much longer more thought-provoking responses like, know, I help high income earners create passive income or something along those lines, but I keep it simple. I buy apartment buildings and then, you know,   let the conversation go where it naturally would go.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (04:06.366) I love that man. Yeah, and you know, to be honest, know, that response that you just mentioned is a little bit played out. Don't you think? I feel like if you're on LinkedIn or if you're on, you know, conferences, everybody's like, yeah, I raised capital from passive investors so I can help them do this and do that. Do you think that's a little bit played out? Do you think that people need to kind of change that marketing strategy at this point?   Joe Fairless (04:25.697) Well...   I think you should just be authentic. think just go with what feels right for you and what you'll enjoy talking about. Just go with what feels right for you. That's what I do. I am not a salesy person.   I feel uncomfortable if I'm trying to sell someone something. I believe in what I do, but I feel uncomfortable if I'm trying to force it. And so if I'm like, I was just at a dad-daughter dance this past Sunday and we met up with some couples that I didn't know any of them. was just couples that, you know, my daughter...   goes to their parents of the kids who go to school with my daughter. And so I was talking to one of the dads and he said, what do you do? I I buy apartment buildings. And he said, that's interesting. Then we started talking about what I do because he was naturally interested. And I enjoy that much more than trying to intentionally bait a hook. I'd just rather just have a conversation.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (05:40.03) Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (05:43.57) Yeah, yeah, I think that's the key, right? Especially in today's world where everything's online and you just get marketed to and advertised to all the time. You've got to be authentic and you need to have an elevator pitch, it's got to be authentic. It's got to be really who you are. And it can't be sales because people are so sensitive to that nowadays, whether you're raising capital or whether you're W2 doing your job. And we're all salespeople to a certain extent, whatever we do.   But people are very sensitive to that. So you've got to really focus on being authentic and coming from a place of genuineness.   Joe Fairless (06:20.91) Nobody in the world can do you like you do you. You've got a unique strand of DNA that no one else can be the Seth Bradley that you are, the Joe Farrells that I am, because it's impossible. It's impossible. There is no one like you. There is no one like me.   And it's just the more magnetic, the more genuine and true to who I am, the more magnetic I feel like I become because people enjoy authenticity and it's just the right way to play it, right way to do it.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (07:01.684) Totally, totally, totally. For our audience, just tell us what you're doing nowadays. mean, there's been kind of some changes in the market with the interest rates going up, those sorts of things, maybe starting towards the end of 2022. I know for myself, I was in the capital raising game for a number of years and then I kind of slowed down there towards the end of 2022, beginning of 2023, just to kind of see what the market was gonna do, just to see if we could still get some really good deals going, see if some of the other deals were going bad.   you know, what, what are you up to nowadays? Like what's your focus? right now.   Joe Fairless (07:36.77) The focus has been and always will be on our current portfolio and the deals that we have and operating those deals the best that we can and continuing to improve the NOI. So that is the focus.   There we have some deals that have floating rates with rate caps and the focus is to figure out how not to have floating rate with rate caps that you have to continue to renew once they expire. So that comes with refinancing and in order to refinance and sometimes you have to do a capital call or if you don't do a capital call you gotta bring in equity in some form or fashion to refinance.   some cases, it just depends on the deal. So the focus is on the portfolio and always will be. And then the secondary thing that we look at is acquisitions. How do we capitalize on the market that we're at right now? mean, the best way to describe it that I've read is it's stagnant. You know, it's just...   Not sure. The water, there's stuff growing in the water, but not sure if you really want to be part of what's growing in the water right now. Like it's just, it's stagnant and what will, but we also know what is coming.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (09:00.486) Yeah.   Joe Fairless (09:12.264) and that is the supply demand shift in multifamilies favor depends on the sub market and the market obviously. But generally the Sun Belt is going to greatly benefit in the next year, year and a half, in some cases six months from now.   with the supply-demand dynamic with new supply drying up and increasing the demand for the existing supply. Again, depends on the market, depends on the sub-market. So how do we capitalize on that? is there any way to be opportunistic with what's happening with some deals from other operators that   didn't work out. know, there haven't been a lot of foreclosures, but there have been some. And we have relationships with our lenders that are pretty strong. And in fact, one, a large lender that we have a really good relationship with, that we have properties with, they foreclosed on someone else's deal. And I won't name names on who they foreclosed on, but they foreclosed on someone else's deal and they came to us   Afterward and said hey here here. Here's a here's an opportunity. It's in a great area of Fort Worth and I'm from Fort Worth so I know we have a lot of property there too, but I know the market also I grew up there and We'll give you this special financing of around 3 % or so interest rate fixed interest rate   for year one and then it's fixed through the whole period of the loan but then the interest rate steps up to around four, four and a half percent over the five years. So to get that type of essentially seller financing but it's lender financing direct from the lender lending institution that foreclosed on the deal in a very good area of Fort Worth.   Joe Fairless (11:29.326) There are opportunities out there also. So it's how do we become opportunistic and find these deals. And so we're in the process of closing on that deal or doing due diligence on that deal. We're under contract and we're scheduled to close in about a month and a half from now.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (11:49.316) Awesome, awesome. Have you found it difficult at any point in time, kind of over these last couple years where the market has slowed down?   Joe Fairless (11:56.654) Whatever you're gonna say, yes. So finish your question, but the answer is yes. Yes, I found it difficult over the last couple years, but what exactly are you asking about that's difficult?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (11:59.732) Yeah. Sure. Specifically, should say sticking with multifamily because you are a multifamily guy and you you've seen you've seen where everyone, you know, everybody wanted that on that multifamily train for, you know, a decade, if not longer.   Joe Fairless (12:15.598) Mmm. Man.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (12:23.696) And now you've seen a lot of these same people change their tune and say, okay, well, you know what? Let's pivot to something else. Let's pivot to car washes or private credit funds or all these other things.   Joe Fairless (12:29.998) Man, I'm actually, I know you're an attorney, but can I strike my yes actually from that question? Cause no, actually the answer is no. I haven't found it difficult to stick with multifamily. Hell no. No. You know, you go to a restaurant at a diner and they offer lasagna, California roll and what else?   Seth Bradley, Esq. (12:41.16) Hahaha   Seth Bradley, Esq. (12:49.107) Ha ha.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (13:01.204) Ha   Joe Fairless (13:01.356) Pad Thai, you know, are they gonna have the best lasagna, California roll, and pad thai? No, no. They've got something for everyone, but they're not gonna be great at any of it. I'd rather go to an Italian restaurant that makes their own noodles, right? Makes their own pasta. And where they specialize in one thing.   Not at all. No, we I believe in the fundamentals of multifamily. I believe in the supply demand that is here. I mean we had a record number of supply across the board and multifamily and the occupancy maintained 90-91 percent depending on the market but it maintained in the 90s in a record number of supply and by the way at the same time you got   the capital markets raising interest rates the way they did. And a lot of people have been able to hold serve. And the fundamentals of the supply demand and how much...   how many renters there are out there and how that will continue is there. That's cold hard facts. There is demand, a lot of demand, and there will continue to be even more demand because the supply is trailing off. We have never looked.   outside of multifamily because it's so strong. I think that is a cultural thing actually because if you, anyone who's in the sports, college sports, they'll know about the NIL and   Joe Fairless (14:54.784) how you can bounce from one team to another year after year. And so you'll find some people who aren't starting and if they put in the work then, and I'm for NIL, I think players should be paid, but I don't think that they, I don't think they should, I don't think it serves them as young men and young women.   mostly young men in this case who are bouncing from place to place, to not compete and not work for a starting position and instead just go somewhere else the path of least resistance. That's not how you build character. There's a really good book, it's called The Road to Character.   and they talk about in the book, they give different examples of people throughout history. And they're not exceptional, like saintly people. They're people who are normal people, but what they did that is atypical for what our culture does now is they stuck with things even when it was tough.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:09.682) Mm-hmm.   Joe Fairless (16:09.998) and instead of bouncing from thing to thing because what happens is when you bounce from thing to thing you don't get an expertise you don't get the the depth of knowledge the scars that that you need in order to be truly exceptional at that one thing and it's just surface level   And it'd be like if you feed your kids candy for every meal. I mean, it's same thing. You can't live on mental candy, right? You gotta have some substance. You gotta go through things.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (16:43.06) Yeah, I love that man. I love that metaphor. I love that. Like you've got to get reps, whether the times are great or an easy or whether they're hard. And those hard reps are the ones that are really going to set you up for success down the line. Like if you're able to execute in the hard times, then when times turn good again, you're going to be at the top, right? You're going to be cream of the crop. What do you, what do you think it is about you and maybe your company that's enabled you to do that, to stick?   to multifamily and not say, ooh, you know what, I'm a really good marketer so I can raise capital for anything if I really want to, right? You're in that position and what is it about you and your company that's been able to allow you to stick to multifamily and just stick to it during these hard times?   Joe Fairless (17:32.762) the fundamentals are there. I mean, you could make an argument that if we were office investors, and I have some friends who are really keen on investing in office now and in the future, but you could very easily make an argument that with the amount of office space that people have currently, you don't need as much of that space.   It's not a five, you know, three to five to seven year play. Maybe it's a 20 to 50 year play. I don't know. Who the hell knows what's going to happen with office and working from home and AI and automation and all that. But with multifamily, the challenge is capital markets. Now there are some other aspects like the hyper supply, which has tapered off.   because of the higher interest rates increase in you know insurance which has tapered off back to the single digits by and large but that that was a big thing property taxes depending on where you're at but the fundamentals are there people are renting and consumers for yeah unfortunately for generally you know for the general consumer their credit card debt   is going up. They're still paying off their credit card debt from purchases almost 12 months ago. More than half of people are paying off purchases for more than 12 months ago. that's so right now they've been out earning their income because income has been increasing. But what happens if that income stops increasing the way it has been?   the debt's not going anywhere, especially credit card debt, and that's certainly not going to make more first-time home buyers that dynamic. So the fundamentals are there, and not to mention we already have a housing shortage deficit, major deficit.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (19:50.866) Yeah, so it's the belief and it's the knowledge like it's the education like you you know that the fundamentals are there you you're you're basing your resilience in the market to What you're seeing in the data like hey, it's you know We we believe in this asset type because of the data that i'm Well educated and well versed in   Joe Fairless (20:09.752) Mm-hmm.   Joe Fairless (20:14.346) Absolutely.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (20:16.168) That's incredible. That's incredible. Has anything changed in the way that you potentially because you've got a deal that might be going through in the way that you either have raised capital recently or how you are going to raise capital for your next deal as compared to when it might have been a little bit easier, let's say five years ago from passive investors?   Joe Fairless (20:38.612) Yes, we have implemented a system that I'm sure a lot of your listeners have heard of EOS, Entrepreneur Operating System, and that has been very helpful. We just did our focus day a month ago, but we've hit the ground running and we have our, I think, Vision Day part one later this month and Vision Day two.   next month and that has allowed ownership among the team members to really thrive because team members are responsible for rocks or their goals but if you say goals instead of rock they'll the EOS person will slap your hand so I'll continue to say rock so they're responsible for rocks and it's just   It takes more, the individuals on the team have more ownership. So that's not something sexy or flashy that I think your question was getting to. So I'll say something else that has been helpful would be doing Facebook ads for getting new accredited investor leads.   at scale. That's the best way that we found to get credit investor leads at scale is through Facebook ads. And we have an agency that we work with. And I just hired a director of marketing who has some really good experience and he's overseeing them and the marketing team. And then   Another thing that has been helpful that where I'd say just scratching the surface I'm a big proponent of AI and how I believe We are in the middle of a major change for our society with because of AI I think it is just as major of a change as it as it as when we all got internet in our homes   Joe Fairless (22:51.602) on a personal computer. I think it's that big to have access to, just think about phone books to Googling something on your computer. So with AI we've incorporated it and are incorporating as much as possible in one aspect to address your question about how we're doing things differently. One aspect.   is that on our investor calls, our prospective investor calls, we record them. They know it's being recorded and on a recorded line. We have an AI service that then takes the information from the call and grades the call. But then not only that is we look at, those investors, which ones of those investors invest?   What did we say? What did they say on those calls? What are some common commonalities? Which ones didn't invest? What did they say? What did we say? And starting to identify trends and words and topics to talk about and to address on the calls to increase the conversion rate.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (24:07.048) That's great, man. I love it. You kind of went full circle there. You've got EOS, which I'm a huge proponent of. We use that across the various companies that I have, some form or another. There's got to be a framework of organization and accountability and being able to look back and say, hey, we've had this problem before and here's how we solved it before. Or hey, this problem is still occurring from last week's L10 meeting. What do we need to do to improve it? How do we solve that issue?   Joe Fairless (24:33.166) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (24:36.712) How do we keep moving forward rather than, what did we talk about last week or what did we talk about last month? You've got to have a way to organize things and a way to solve issues organizationally, especially as you grow. So EOS, huge proponent of it, man. I mean, it's awesome. Like you have to have some form of it, even if it's not to a T with the book, Traction is where that comes from. You have to implement some form of organization and framework for your company. And then like you said,   Joe Fairless (24:41.389) Yeah.   Joe Fairless (24:56.575) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:03.284) you know, with AI, everyone has to stay on the forefront of what's going on right now. I know I was even a little resistant myself. was like, chat GPT, is that? Eh, you know, and put it off for a little bit. And then once you start using that, along with all the other things as well, I'm just using that as kind of a baseline, but just learning how to use chat GPT in your everyday life, it's just a game changer. Because now your whole thought process changes. It's not like,   Joe Fairless (25:08.547) Yep.   Joe Fairless (25:20.14) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:31.22) I need to put together this entire article or blog post. It's like, how do I prompt it correctly to to produce this blog post or this article in my voice and then edit it through that or, you know, all these different things you figure out, like how to prompt rather than how to actually take this solution all the way from start to finish. Let that technology tell you how to do it. So it's awesome. And then Facebook ads as well.   Joe Fairless (25:45.206) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (25:58.964) you've got to really dial those things in, right? It can be a money pit, but at the same time, if you can master that, and it sounds like you hired an agency that's very industry specific, which helps out a lot. And from what I've seen, we have gems, we have a capital raising business, we have all these different things, and finding somebody that's niche to that industry is super important.   Joe Fairless (26:22.434) That's right.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (26:25.756) I'd love to go back and stay on this capital raising subject, especially for people that just started out. So like now you're doing EOS, now you're using AI, now you're using Facebook ads, do you have some capital to be able to invest in those ads? What about for somebody that's just kind of starting out? they're, you know, maybe this is their first fund to fund or, you know, their first property that they're raising capital for. Like how do they effectively launch their first   Capital Race.   Joe Fairless (26:56.59) Well, I would read the book that I wrote on syndication because I walked through the whole process of that best ever syndication book. So, but for this this relatively short conversation, I'd say first,   Seth Bradley, Esq. (27:04.404) Great book.   Joe Fairless (27:19.606) People have to make sure you have to make sure that people perceive you and you are actually a real estate expert and That because you might have you might have been if this your first one first deal then I'm assuming you came from some other industry or   If it was real estate, maybe you're a property manager, they don't know about all aspects of your expertise as it relates to real estate. you've got to, by having a thought leadership platform, you'll interview others who have that experience, you'll continue to learn, hone your skills, and then you'll also be associated with those who have those skill sets, and that will be helpful for you.   Once you do that, assuming that you are the expert and you are also perceived as the expert, then what I would do, and what I did actually on my very first one is I created a spreadsheet. And the spreadsheet had the name of the person, how I knew them, and then,   What I did is I wrote down all the different names and then how I knew them. So for example, I was on the alumni advisory board for Texas Tech. I was on a flag football team in New York. I wrote someone's name down there. On my flag football team, was working at different companies. I worked at different companies, so I wrote down different coworkers at different companies.   the key here for doing it this way is identifying the person. So then you sort them by how you know them. all the people from the flag football team would be sorted together. All the people from XYZ company would be sorted together. And then you identify the most influential person within that group. And you talk to him or her.   Joe Fairless (29:39.306) about your opportunity. And once you talk to him or her about the opportunity, and if they find it appealing or at least they want to learn more about it, then you can go to the next person in that group and you can name check. You can say, I was just talking to Seth about this and he's got some follow-up questions about it and I thought it also would make sense to talk to you about it too.   So then you come in a little warm with the group dynamic versus if you come in cold on an individual level.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:11.924) Mm-hmm.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (30:18.822) I like that man. That's a very, very nuanced strategy tidbit there. What I really heard was, you know, authenticity and authority, authenticity in that. Yeah, you've got to educate yourself. You've got to be a real estate expert if that's what you're raising capital for and authority. And then you've got to show people, you know, why you're the expert, why you know all these things, why they should listen to you to invest in something like this and even leveraging the authority of others with that.   that strategy where you go to this influential person and say, look, this person likes this deal too, and here's why. And then they can go to them and they kind of look to them as additional authority because they kind of look to them as that thought leader or that leader in general. So pretty great, man. Start wrapping this up, but this is kind of a nuanced question that I love to ask and ...   Because once upon a time I went to I went to med school for a little while and then I dropped out and because I just I hated it knew it wasn't for me and I'm going to law school and then got into real estate. So you know in a parallel universe tell me about a different version of you a different but likely version of you if you didn't exist as you do today because right now you know you're you're an apartment buyer you're a great marketer you're an entrepreneur.   Joe Fairless (31:38.164) I'd say I really enjoy coaching my daughter in soccer. I do not know soccer. I grew up in Texas. I played football. I played baseball. I ran track in that order. There wasn't a soccer option or maybe even a soccer ball in Texas when I was growing up. But I enjoy coaching and in an alternative universe, I would   I would do more of that because time is, it flies whenever I'm doing that.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (32:15.036) Awesome, awesome. All right, Joe, for our listeners out there, what can they find out more about you?   Joe Fairless (32:21.494) You can go to AshcroftCapital.com and if you're looking at passive investing or if you're an operator or someone who is partnering with others, then my conference is a good place to be. It's besteverconference.com. It's gonna be March 3rd and 4th in Salt Lake City this year.   I can get a discount code to your people too.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (32:52.51) Great, yeah, I'll drop that in the show notes and I'll see you there, Joe. So we'll shake hands in person. So thanks again for coming on the show. Really appreciate it and we'll catch you next time.   Joe Fairless (32:57.304) Sweet. Awesome.   Joe Fairless (33:05.518) You know what, in just a second, I'm gonna just tell you the code, that way you don't have to do any work. Whenever I do a podcast and someone says, I'll send it to you, I'm like, more work for me to do later. So, all right, here's a code. Hurry 25, it'll be 25 % off all ticket types. H-U-R-R-Y, all lowercase, and then number 25, you get 25 % off all tickets, except for the LP ticket.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:09.917) Okay.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:13.808) Yeah, I know then you gotta follow up.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:35.924) Let's roll right into these million dollar questions and then I'll let you go.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:44.884) Alright Joe, let's jump into this. So, how did you make your first million dollars?   Joe Fairless (33:52.185) Same way I made my last one so spoiler alert. It's it's selling when a deal exited so The is probably The seventh or eighth Deal I had one million dollars on one transaction, right? Like is that chunk about? Yeah, I   Seth Bradley, Esq. (33:55.56) Hahaha   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:12.767) Really million dollars in your net worth   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:17.96) What puts you over the edge there? How did you grow that first million?   Joe Fairless (34:21.626) I lost my first million before I ever came across it. That was on the very first deal. It would just be, it'd probably be through an exit of a deal.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:26.056) Ha   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:35.614) Sure, yeah, and I'll bet it's probably similar. mean, how are you gonna, how are you planning on making your next million dollars? Same thing, the apartments, all about apartments, man. I love it, singular focus, that's where it's at. mean, riches are in the niches.   Joe Fairless (34:41.144) Same thing. Yep. The apartments. All apartments. That's right.   Yep.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (34:52.564) All right, you're clearly in the top 1 % of what you do. What is it about you that separates you from the rest of the field?   Joe Fairless (34:58.958) Mmm.   I do what I say I'm gonna do. And sadly, that separates me from a lot of people, not all people.   but that's a big focus of mine. And it's not about my, I recently read something that resonated and that was don't focus on your reputation, focus on your character. Reputation is such a vanity metric, but the character is who you are when no one's looking and being proud of who you are. And that's vital to me.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (35:37.524) Yeah, and it's not just saying what you're going to do to other people, but also with yourself, right? To yourself.   Joe Fairless (35:43.726) Mmm good point. Yeah when you're when when I'm on those runs and I can just stop Whenever I want But then I'll be I'll know I'll know I didn't go through this, you know, you know made up finish line that I had predetermined in my head and And that's that's there's there's something to be said there. I'm glad you brought that up   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:10.644) Yeah, that's that's the key right? It's not just when somebody when it's dependent on somebody else or somebody else is watching It's you know, what do you do when nobody's watching and what do you do when it's just a promise to yourself? Do you follow through do you keep those promises things as easy as hey when you set your alarm in the morning and you wake up Do you do you get up or do you hit the snooze button? Like you made a promise to yourself the night before to wake up and get up when that alarm goes off Do you keep that promise?   Joe Fairless (36:15.415) Mm-hmm.   Joe Fairless (36:25.229) Yeah.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:39.12) Awesome. All right, brother. I think that should do it. I will see you. I'll see you at BC, man.   Joe Fairless (36:46.42) Awesome. I appreciate it. yeah, if anything you can do to help get to get the word out about the conference to your email list, I'd appreciate that also. All right. Thanks, Seth. All right. Bye.   Seth Bradley, Esq. (36:57.404) Absolutely. All right, brother. Talk soon. See you. Links from the Show and Guest Info and Links: Seth Bradley's Links: https://x.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.youtube.com/@sethbradleyesq www.facebook.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.threads.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.instagram.com/sethbradleyesq/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethbradleyesq/ https://passiveincomeattorney.com/seth-bradley/ https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/sethbradleyesq https://medium.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.tiktok.com/@sethbradleyesq?lang=en   Joe Fairless's Links: https://www.facebook.com/imjoefairless https://x.com/joefairless https://www.linkedin.com/in/joefairless/ https://ashcroftcapital.com/our-team/joe-fairless/ https://www.instagram.com/besteverpodcast/?hl=en