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In episode 503 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their deep dive into Luke 10:25–37 — the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Far from a simple morality tale about helping strangers, this episode unpacks the parable's confrontational legal context, its reversal of expectation, and its profound Christological undertones. Tony and Jesse examine why the lawyer's question about self-justification was always destined to be unanswerable on his own terms, how the priest and Levite serve as a damning mirror for religious professionals, and why the Samaritan's lavish, costly mercy points beyond mere ethics to the gospel itself. The episode also explores the Mary and Martha account that immediately follows, arguing it cannot be read in isolation. Closing with Matthew Henry, the hosts land the discussion squarely on gratitude for Christ, the supreme Good Neighbor. Key Takeaways The parable is fundamentally about self-justification, not mercy ministry. The lawyer's question — "Who is my neighbor?" — is a legal maneuver, and Jesus' answer exposes the impossibility of fulfilling the law through self-effort rather than merely defining the scope of neighborly obligation. Jesus reverses the expected identification of "the neighbor." The listener naturally assumes the beaten man is the neighbor to be loved, but the punchline identifies the Samaritan — the one who showed mercy — as the neighbor, redirecting the question from who must I love to what does love actually look like. The Samaritan's mercy is deliberately, impossibly lavish. His actions — binding wounds, providing transport, paying an open-ended debt for a stranger and likely an enemy — exceed anything a reasonable person would do, pointing to a mercy that transcends mere human virtue. The priest and Levite indict religious professionalism. Their failure is not incidental; it demonstrates that meticulous law observance and ceremonial religiosity can actually obstruct the very love the law commands, hollowing out its spirit while preserving its form. The parable functions under all three uses of the law. For the unregenerate, it terrifies and condemns. For the regenerate, it is a third-use call to Spirit-empowered, grateful obedience. As civil law, it commends a society of compassion over indifference. Christ is the typological Good Neighbor. The Samaritan's actions — pouring oil and wine, bearing the cost, promising to return and settle all debts — carry genuine Christological resonance without requiring a full allegorical reading of every detail. The immediately following Mary and Martha account is thematically inseparable. Luke's editorial placement of that narrative directly after the parable creates a deliberate counterpoint: the one thing necessary is not anxious service but sitting at the feet of Jesus. Key Concepts The Lawyer's Question Was Never Going to Work The lawyer who approaches Jesus in Luke 10 is not a neutral inquirer — he is, as Luke tells us, seeking to justify himself. Tony and Jesse explore what this means with precision: the desire to be justified is not inherently wrong, but the mechanism the lawyer employs — the law — is catastrophically insufficient for the task. When Jesus responds with the parable, he does not sidestep the legal framework; he weaponizes it. The Samaritan's mercy is so extravagant, so far beyond ordinary moral expectation, that it functions not as an achievable standard but as a devastating exposure of how far short every human attempt at law-keeping falls. The command "go and do likewise" is not an encouraging send-off — it is, for the self-justifying lawyer, a door slamming shut. The Samaritan's Mercy Is Intentionally Beyond Reach One of the most important contributions this episode makes is resisting the domestication of the Samaritan's actions into a feel-good story about helping those in need. Tony reframes the scenario in contemporary terms: finding a gravely injured stranger from a hostile ethnic group, providing emergency first aid, transporting them to care, and writing a blank check for all future medical expenses — with no personal obligation to do so. No reasonable person would do this, and that is exactly the point. The mercy described is not aspirationally difficult; it is humanly inconceivable at scale. This is what Christ-like love looks like, and it is precisely what the law demands. The gap between the demand and human capacity is the gospel's entry point. The Mary and Martha Account Cannot Be Separated from the Parable Tony raises a hermeneutical observation that deserves more attention than it typically receives: Luke chose to place the Mary and Martha account immediately after the Good Samaritan parable, and that editorial decision is not accidental. Martha — busy with hospitality and service — looks, on the surface, like the practical application of everything the Samaritan modeled. Yet she is gently rebuked, and Mary, who sits at Jesus' feet, is commended for choosing "the one thing necessary." This creates a stunning theological counterweight: the parable exposes the impossibility of self-justifying law-keeping, and the very next story shows that even well-intentioned merciful activity, when it crowds out receiving from Christ, misses the point. The one thing necessary is always Christ himself. Memorable Quotes If you think you're the good Samaritan, if you think you're the one that's gonna come and rescue people — you're much more likely to see this as a sort of law beat-down. Where those of us who are regenerated and in Christ, this is third-use law. This is us seeing what it means to be holy, and going and doing likewise, trying in our power, recognizing that we can't, and trusting the Lord to accept our feeble attempts. - Tony Arsenal This text is not really to be preached or applied as some kind of bare moral exhortation. It's not 'try harder to be like the Samaritan.' That's totally disconnected from the gospel. It should be preached in a manner that exposes the impossibility of self-justification... and then of course it does point us to Christ as the one whose perfect, costly, self-giving mercy alone satisfies the law's demand on our behalf. - Jesse Schwamb If this parable and our conversation about it does nothing except stirring you to gratitude for the fact that our supreme good neighbor threw us on his donkey and carried us to the public house, and bound up our wounds, and paid for our debt — if it does nothing but drive you to gratitude and thankfulness and wonder, then we've succeeded in our task and we've left you with the Gospel. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 503 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, at this point, there's one thing that we know for certain, and that is if you're gonna come at the law giver, the one who's composed and written the law, with a legal question to try to entrap the one who has given you the law, you better not miss. And it turns out, in Luke 10 where we've been hanging out, the lawyer who poses Jesus with the question of, "Who is my neighbor?" is a big swing and a miss. Yeah. And we're finally gonna get to all the characters that are part of this amazing parable in this conversation. But of course, there's something we gotta do first. Affirmations And Denials Jesse Schwamb: It, it's everybody's, what I'm led to believe everybody's favorite segment of this entire show. I mean, the crowds out there say, "Why even have a full podcast? Just do affirmations and denials for the entire time." And we, we hear you, because we're borrowing from that beautiful confessional format of the dead reformers to settle all the much not confessional [00:02:00] disputes. So in the great tradition of the Westminster Divines, who of course cannot just simply say, "We like grace," without also clarifying 17 things that grace is not- ... we're now again going to bring you our own binding, authoritative, and entirely unneeded but very official statement of affirmations and denials. It's affirming the things we love and denying things we don't. So Tony, as is our own custom, are you affirming with something or are you denying against something on this episode?  Tony Arsenal: Um, I'm denying something. Uh, it's a sort of a weird situation that has cropped up, uh, online. And I, I try not to use this segment too often to sort of wade into, um, I don't know, the, like, latest social controversy in the Reformed world. But every once in a while I come across something that I feel like you just need to sort of talk about. And, um, many of our listeners are probably already [00:03:00] aware of the situation that I'm gonna talk about, and it's very well-publicized and, and very public. Um, but I'm denying the sort of weirdness that has happened with the G3 Conference. Um, I'm not sure how familiar with G3 you are, Jesse, but for the, the listener who may not be, G3 is a conference, um, primarily run by Baptists, and is, in my understanding, is primarily attended by sort of Reformed-ish Baptists. And I don't, I don't say Reformed-ish to be pejorative necessarily. Um, but it, it's sort of like predominantly, um Non-confessional but not anti-confessional Calvinistic Baptists, sort of think more like covenant framework MacArthur-style Baptists maybe is, is a way to look at it. Um, and a few years ago, one of their main figures, I don't remember exactly what position he held, but it was a relatively high position in, in [00:04:00] the conference. Uh, his name was Josh Boyce. He, uh, w- was caught/confessed to maintaining, like, multiple anonymous or pseudonymous, uh, Twitter accounts and publishing several s- like pseudonym-based Substacks, um, that he used to basically attack the character of not only anyone online that seemed to cross him, but, like, people that he shared an office with. Like, anyone and everyone was targeted by him. And at the time it was a big hullabaloo. He, uh, he resigned. As far as I can tell, he's faded into obscurity and has not sought to come back, although that's always, you know, yet to be seen. But at the time there was very firm statements by the r- remaining sort of board members, leadership of G3, at how inappropriate this was, and how acting anonymously requi- you know, sort of evacuates accountability and, [00:05:00]and all these different things. And it's come out recently, um, just over the last week, that four of the members of the G3 board, um, who are all elders at the same church, had assembled a sort of anonymous dossier of accusations against, um, a- another pastor, uh, that he had been sort of serially plagiarizing sermons. Um, and when nothing really happened when they sent their anonymous dossier, they started distributing this to other, other, like, platforms and other church and m- parachurch ministries, kind of encouraging people to do their own investigation. Um, one such, uh, outlet was ... It's a, it's a, I don't know, sort of a news discernment blogger kind of a thing, um, has done some pretty decent reporting work I think in, in the recent past, although it has sort of a s- storied beginning, um, called Protestia They did just [00:06:00] that. They did an investigation, and in the course of their investigation, they identified who these anonymous, uh, the anonymous reporters were, and it was the same, the very same people who a few years ago, uh, pontificated, uh, at, at length about the importance of accountability and how anonymity has, uh, taken that away. Uh, people that accepted Josh Boyce's resi- resignation for acting anonymously have now done the same thing. They have since, uh, resigned from their church eldership, um, which is gonna be awkward because they haven't resigned from the board of G3, which, uh, the offices of G3 are in the same building as the church that they've now resigned at. Uh, and I guess where, where my denial comes in and the reason that I feel like it, it might be worthwhile for us just to Even reflect on it a little bit is there is an element in the Reformed world that seeks a platform and seeks an audience and seeks notoriety, and I, I was musing [00:07:00] today a little bit on my own Twitter that th- there was a time in my life where that was very much what I wanted. I wanted to be a, a very public, well-known theological voice, and, um, a- and I just have sort of like drifted away from that. And the, the reason I think it's worth mentioning on our show is that we do have an audience. We have a, a modest audience. It's not huge. It's not nothing. Um, but th- there is a real temptation to seek fame and notoriety that is absolutely destructive and really antithetical to, uh, to Christian principles of what it means to serve those around you, to serve with humility, to r- you know, redound any glory that might come to you for your actions to, to the fact that it is Christ who empowers all things and brings all good blessings. So I don't know that I have much more commentary on it. It's just a weird... It's a very weird situation, but it, it seems like it very much has come from a [00:08:00] place of feeling as though minor slights by people you associate with warrant sort of a, a nuclear option like this because, uh... and I don't wanna read too much into motives, but, but it seems like because your reputation and your notoriety is so great that any offense to it needs to be responded to in kind, and that's just not, that's just not the Christian way. So again, I don't know that I have any more commentary or thoughts on it. It just was a weird situation that I'm, I'm like, "Why do we gotta do this to each other, folks?" Like, why are we, why are we biting at each other all the time? Why are we doing these things except from a place of sinful pride? So I'm denying that. I'm denying sinful pride. I'm denying my own tendencies to seek glory in a spotlight. Um, I'm very thankful that God did not, uh, see fit to grant me that desire 'cause it probably would've been even more destructive for me than it has been for these guys. So I'm very happy to live in obscurity, [00:09:00] to serve the local church, to share our voices in this very modest, tiny platform that we have, and perhaps the Lord will see fit to change that one direction or the other, and I'll, I'll be happy to serve at His, uh, at His will. But I'm glad for now that, uh, the, the temptation of international fame has not been something that I even have the opportunity to lay hold of. Um, I'm very thankful for that, that, uh, grace from the Lord.  Jesse Schwamb: I had that light, sarcastic, some might say somewhat humorous opening and affirmations and denials, and you, you just brought the heaviness, which is okay. Sometimes that's, sometimes that's what happens.  Lament Devotional Spotlight Jesse Schwamb: And- Yeah ... I- fortunately, I have an affirmation, but it's, uh, of, like, a weird, heavy kind now that I think about it. So, um, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get everybody on the cusp of good books that I think are coming out. And so here's another one where it's not even gonna be released until September 30th, and so you have plenty of time to go out and find this thing. So P&R Publishing, many may be [00:10:00] familiar, does this whole series, topical series, which are called 31-Day Devotionals for Life, and there's a new one being released by Christine Chappell. It's called Lament: Crying Out in Faith. So I'm affirming with this piece because I've had the joy of been working through some of this stuff, and I think this is some of the best treatment I've ever read, been able to practice, been coached into for lamenting. We've talked before at length about how Christians, especially in the West, often because we just have great lives, we aren't familiar with lament. We don't practice it well. We hardly sing any songs of lament. We're unfamiliar with it. It's like a foreign land to us. And then sometimes when we're, we get convicted we should lament, we kind of interpret that as, "Well, yeah, I, I know I can blow up at God. I can get angry with him and, and that's okay." David does it too, and it's okay to express all your feelings with God. What I like about this work is it cultivates more of a prayer language. It gives voice to pain and grief so that there can be a real healing. It's not just a complaining. It's not just [00:11:00] throwing your voice out into the ether to, you know, wildly pontificate or self-aggrandize about how hurt or upset you are. It enables us to cry out to God in such a way that it promotes emotional authenticity, but at the same time maintains reverence. I think that is, uh, at least what I need. The beauty of this book is somebody you know or yourself need to lament something. Actually, I think we all have something to lament, even as it's getting older or things changing in our lives. So I highly, highly, highly affirm with this book. It's Lament: Crying Out in Faith. P&R does a lot of great publishing in this way. It's just the year of the devotionals, Tony. I don't know why. Yeah. I mean, I even hate to use devotional. It's the year of good resources for daily praise and worship- Yeah ... and lament should be part of our praise and worship. Yeah. So, but doing it in the right way is something I'm learning. I had mixed understanding of it. So this will clarify, encourage, edify in all the ways that I think we need.  Tony Arsenal: That sounds great. I, I do agree with you. I think, um- [00:12:00] Although I think it may be a little bit less so in, in the sort of confessional Reformed tradition just because the Psalms in general play such a prominent role in Reformed worship. Um, I do agree with you that broadly, like, we, we in the Western evangelical w- world don't, we don't know how to do laments. Um, I'm not one of those people that would say im- imprecatory prayers are inappropriate. I know there are some even within the Reformed world that would say im- imprecatory prayers are not appropriate for God's people in, in the new covenant. Um, I don't know that I agree with that, but, but that's another example of, like, that's in the prayer and hymnbook of our people- Right ... and we don't really know how to do it. Yes. So, and, and imprecation and lament are very closely related to each other. They're, they're very similar, um, ways of thinking and they're, they're both kind of modes of prayer that, uh, we don't, we don't really engage in. And so when we do have- when the occasion arises, we're, like, out of practice. So that's a great, uh, a great [00:13:00]affirmation and yeah, a little, a little weirdly heavy. Maybe this is gonna be a, a weirdly heavy episode. Who knows?  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it very well could be.  Good Samaritan Deep Dive Jesse Schwamb: I mean, listen, it was no doubt heavy for the lawyer who stood up- True who was  Tony Arsenal: like- Nicely done ...  Jesse Schwamb: I'd like to justify myself, so Jesus, let me ask you, we took our question, "Who is my neighbor?" I do all these things. I'm down with the law. Yeah. I know all this stuff. And I think we had some really great conversation last time. I'm biased, but I think we had some really fantastic unpacking of the first part of this, and if you haven't heard that yet, you should go back and listen to episode 502. But in this episode, we're really getting into all of these wonderful and somewhat colorful characters. So I'm gonna pick us back up in Luke chapter 10, starting in verse 25. So I'm going back a little bit just to set that proper context for this amazing parable that Jesus tells us. So he says, "And behold, a scholar of the law stood up and was putting him," that is Jesus, "to the test, saying, 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' And he said to him, 'What is written in the law? How do you [00:14:00] read it?' And he answered and said, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.' And he said to him, 'You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live.' But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?' And Jesus replied and said, 'A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. And a priest happened to be going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise, a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him, and when he saw him, he felt compassion.'" And he came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them, and he put them on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And on the [00:15:00] next day, he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, "Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, when I return, I will repay you." Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands? And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, this is one of those parables we, we mentioned, uh, I guess we've invented a new classification of parables called the Big Daddy parables. That's right. Um, uh, this is one of those parables that is so ubiquitous and well-known, uh, that word there, choice there was a little hat tip to my Lutheran friends. Um, so ubiquitous and well-known that I think we actually can, can rush into a common understanding and not, not be right at all about it. And I think the, the way this, uh, uh, the way I've seen this commonly done in, in circles I've run in in the past is this [00:16:00] becomes a parable about mercy ministry. Um, and, and the primary point is about how we serve our neighbors. And I think there certainly is, um, there certainly is an element of that that we can glean from this, that Christ is making a commentary on the fact that, um, the, the, the right way to not only serve your neighbor but to even identify your neighbor, uh, and it's funny because I think this is, this is where I think people go wrong. The, the Samar- or the, um, the, the lawyer is asking, "Who is my neighbor?" Right. And I think we commonly read this, and we read it to say, well, the Samaritan, uh, or the, the guy who got beat up is the neighbor. Right. And so we have to serve our neighbor like the Samaritan did. But the, the, the punchline, whatever, of the story is that the Samaritan is the g- is the neighbor, right? We, we call this the Parable of the Good Samaritan, but we might wanna call it the [00:17:00] Parable of the Good Neighbor. And so it says more about what it means to be a good neighbor than it does to, um, to say about who, who our neighbor necessarily is, right? The, the s- uh, the lawyer was asking, "Who's my neighbor?" And the answer was the one who shows mercy. And there's kind of a weird, there's kind of a weird paradox there, and this is something Jesus commonly does, where, like, He doesn't really answer the question. Um, the, the lawyer is like, "Well, who is it that I have to love," right? "The, I have to love my neighbor as myself, and who is it that I have to love?" And Jesus' answer basically is like, "Well, the good neighbor is the one who showed mercy." Well, that doesn't answer- Right ... His question. So I think we have to be careful when we, uh, we work through this not to just sort of default and jump to what might be called, like, the lowest common denominator interpretation, right? These are things that, yes, um, there is something to say about, uh, mercy ministry and how important it is to serve the, [00:18:00] serve those around us who are in need, right? That's, that's the command that comes out of this or the outcome that comes out of this is Christ is commanding this, um, this lawyer to go and be merciful to others. Um- But if we, if we move too quickly to that, we miss a lot of what this has to say about the nature of justification- Right ... the nature of Christ as, as the capital T good neighbor, right? The, the good neighbor who, who takes care of our sin and pays the debt for us to be restored, right? I don't, like I said last week, I don't think that that is too on the nose. Um, I think we miss the fact that the question, uh, the question is coming from a place, and we talked about this a little bit last week, but and maybe we'll get into it a little more. The question is coming from a place, um, whether you view this negatively, like I think most do, and there's warrant for that, or whether you view it a, a little bit more neutrally or maybe even positively, which is where I land, the desire to justify or to be [00:19:00] justified is not a bad desire. And the, the text doesn't seem to offer a lot of commentary on the fact that the, the, um, lawyer is desiring to justify himself, other than the implied commentary o- of what the parable says about salvation in that someone else needs to save you, so you can't do it yourself in the first place. So I'm excited to get through this. Um, I, I think we're probably gonna be here, we're gonna camp out here for at least another week after this, 'cause there's just so much to this parable. Who knows? Maybe we'll fly through it and it'll be a quick conversation, but I, I don't... That's not really our jam. Um- That's not really what we do But yeah, it, it's, it's a big daddy parable. There's a lot here to unpack.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You're right about that. Interestingly, as always, Jesus flips the law, but here the law flipping, like, ends up smacking you in the face because it does start with this inquiry about just identify for me who my neighbors are. If you give me these discrete instructions like the law has given me to do all these things, which by the way, I mean, even that when we have this lawyer saying, [00:20:00] "I've done all these things. I've identified just for instance that the law includes loving the Lord God with everything, every part of who I am." He says like, "Yeah, I've done all these things." This is, I've already accomplished that. So now let me get, become self-justified in confirming I've done all these things. If you just tell me who the neighbors are, I'll be able to say to you, "Yep, I've already done that." Instead, what happens is Christ says, "Here's what neighborly love looks like. And what it's gonna look like is so dramatic and so shocking that you ought to take pity and have concern and show compassion for those not just who are unlike you, but are, like, abhorrent, those who you would even never identify with in the parable of the story I'm about to tell you." So I think there's all of that, like you said, to move away from just kind of categorizing this as a nice homily about how we ought to behave. However, there might be, like, some kind of moralistic theme in this that directs us toward actions of love and generosity, which by the way, could just be common grace. Those exist outside of strict belief and adherence to the gospel, and certainly can be far afield from actually loving Christ. [00:21:00] The other thing that I think sometimes happens with this, and I'm gonna be unpopular on this one, I'm afraid, but is that I think there is often a lot of allegorical excess. And certainly there are people more intelligent than I who really embrace that. So I'm looking at you, Patristic Fathers. Like, you know, if you wanna read some interesting stuff, everybody can go look up Origen or Augustine on this. Yeah. And they allegorize this parable in New England what we would call wicked fine detail. I mean, down, down to everything. So the oil and the- Yeah ... wine, the soil, each of the persons here representing something that in itself, like, everything. And I think that that is okay. What I struggle with on that is, and this is where I'm unpopular, I think, is that- There are a lot of other exegetes, I don't think I'm alone, that would look at this and say, "Yes, there is something about this that draws us into, like, just general typological resonance. I'm not gonna reject that." There are these, like, broader canonical themes of, like, helpless [00:22:00] humanity, like you said, and undeserved mercy. Those all legitimately, I think, echo the gospel truths. But I'm kind of resisting, or I'm prone to resist, treating every narrative detail in this as some kind of, like, independent cipher. Yeah. And so I think I want to come a little bit in criticizing, like, the allegorical method here, that instead what happens when we do that is we're, we're... I think we're obscuring a little bit Christ's actual didactic purpose, which is fundamentally ethical and legal, 'cause that's the question he's answering. He's trying to answer this question, "Who's my neighbor?" And he's gonna do it- Right ... with this definition-shattering example. And so I think, like, the most responsible hermeneutic here affirms that, like we said before, a parable should have a single main point, and it's determined in this context by that punchline, like you said. Um, at the same time, I think we can legitimately, like, permit some restrained theological reflection on, like, that broader resonance with the gospel. I'm not denying that. But without multiplying, like, allegorical [00:23:00] correspondences like the text itself doesn't even make. Even, even coming down to, like, who we see as Christ in the story, while that can be useful and helpful, it's not the same identification that we've seen in other parables. Yeah. So that's what makes this, like you're right, Tony, like, really unique and very interesting because we can draw lots and lots of parallels, and perhaps we should. But at the same time, it's always good to remember what is it that Jesus is on about here? What is it that the hearers were really being prone to understand and mull over and meditate on? And that's, like, this first principle of neighborly love, like you already called out.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I agree with you, too, is I, I think, um- We can sort of fall into a trap or a pit of assuming that all of the parables are meant to explain the same thing. Sure. And I think, like, within Matthew maybe that's a little bit more, uh, accurate because m- I think all, if not [00:24:00] most of, of the Matthean parables, you know, the Kingdom of God is like, the Kingdom of God is like. So th- like, that repeated f- refrain of, like, the Kingdom of God is... In, in Matthew, Christ is using parables to teach about the mysterious hidden reality of the kingdom in a way that people can understand. Um, this is different, right? This is not a Kingdom of God is like. There is no, um, clear this is like that, uh, introduction to this parable. Right. I, I've actually even read some commentaries that would question the assignment of the title parable to this, because they want to restrict what a parable is to those sort of kingdom, like, explicit simile- Good point ... things. Yeah. So- Right ... but I, I do think, um, w- we, we have to be careful not to run down that road, because this parable is not really... Again, like, it's not explaining what the Kingdom of God is like. This is trying to, um, not trying to, Christ is [00:25:00]articulating a reality that is baked into the law, um, and he's flipping the question on its head, and this is what I think is so, um, so wrong about the allegorical approach, right? Is that the allegorical approach seeks to find symbolism in every discrete character or element of the, of the parable, or of the, the allegory if you wanna, we wanna distinguish it. This really is, is trying to just get at that one point. And what- Mm-hmm ... I think is so, what must have been really just infuriating for this lawyer, um, regardless of what happened after this, right? We don't, we don't get commentary like we do with the rich, young ruler, and the stories are in many ways are very much the same. Like, it's the same basic setup. But we don't get commentary that, like, he went away sad, like we do with the rich, young ruler. We don't know what happened with this guy. We don't know what his reaction... But I, I'm sitting there putting myself in his place, and I'm, I'm thinking through this, and this is one of those things that it's actually hard even to mentally get yourself there. The, [00:26:00] the, each character that is introduced here, um, is a candidate for the neighbor. Right. But the most obvious candidate based on, um, the way we commonly interpret this, is that the dude who gets beat up and left stripped naked is, is the neighbor that we're supposed to love Right? So the lawyer, as he's hearing this parable, as it's being told, and the, the people who are there listening, right, the, the other people that are around, there's this character introduced, "Who is my neighbor? Well, a man was going down to Jerusalem. He fell among roggers, Roger, robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead." Like, the obvious answer is that Christ is introducing this poor, destitute, beat-up, naked dude, uh, as the neighbor that needs to be loved. And so he goes through the whole parable, and you're like, oh, well, like, the, you know, the, the priest and the Levite, they didn't love this guy. Uh, the Samaritan, you know, I think an audience of Jews probably would've been thinking like, "Well, the Samaritan can't be..." You know, the Samaritan [00:27:00] is just a dude. Like, none of these people are loving the, the, the beat-up dude like a neighbor should. Right. And then all of a sudden, Christ flips the script, and the neighbor is not the dude who's laying there naked, half dead, who's been rescued and, and, you know, restored and is being healed. It's actually the Samaritan. And so there's this... We have to... Part of the reason, I think, I mean, I, I, I guess I don't know for sure, but part of the reason I think s- that parables have this, like, reversal of expectation baked into many of them is that it is there to challenge our assumptions, and th- that sort of whiplash effect when you get to the end of it, you're like, "Whoa, that was like he was talking about totally, something totally different than what it seemed like he was talking about." I think that's actually a teaching tool here as well. Right. That the, the whole time you're thinking like, "Oh, this dude is the neighbor, and I've gotta figure out how to love him best," and that's what plays into these mercy ministry interpretations, is thinking that the, the point of the parable is to show us how to take [00:28:00] care of the, the people who need help, when really the point of the parable is the good neighbor. And, uh, we might butt heads a little bit on this, 'cause I think I take probably more of a Christological, uh, topological, typological interpretation than you do. I, I think that the point of the parable is that you can't justify yourself, and the only one who can justify you is the one who's kept the law perfectly. And what does it mean to keep the law perfectly? Well, love the Lord your God, but also love your neighbor as yourself. Well, who's the only person in the story who's loved the neighbor as himself? The one who s- rescues and heals and pays for this poor man who's been, you know, waylaid by robbers. He's the good neighbor who fulfills the law. He's the one who's justified himself. Now, yes, "Go do likewise," there's some echoes there of, of the go and sin no more language that we see in other places, too. So I, I think this parable is more, is more about- A, and this is where it shares some affinity with the rich young ruler, [00:29:00] right? The rich young ruler is told to go and to, to sell everything he has and donate it to the poor and to come and follow Christ. And he says, you know, he, he can't do that. He walks away sad. In this instance, it's the same kind of situation. It's an, a question about how do I fulfill the law? What do I need to do to be saved, to inherit eternal life, to obtain eternal life, whatever the phrasing is. And the answer is, "Obey the law perfectly." And the guy goes, "Well, hey, I did that." And he said, "Well, let me show you how much you didn't do that." And the reality is the only one who did that is Christ, the good teacher, right? I mean, there, there's so many parallels between these two accounts. It, it's almost the same, it's almost the same story. This one just in sort of parable answer form versus a more direct form, which we see with the rich young ruler. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, what I find really fascinating about these is that whereas, like you said, the, some of the other parables, they come under the volitional teaching of Christ. That is, He is presenting forward the topic at hand. So usually it's in the context of conversation, but He essentially makes [00:30:00] the segue. He presents and opens up this new kind of vista to explore. In this case, or in both those cases you talked about, the confrontation really comes from the outside. Of course, God, through Christ, predestined all of these things to pass, so I'm not saying that Christ was caught off guard, of course, by this line of questioning. And presumably He understands that when the lawyer asks this question, He knows that it's from a position of self-justification. So I don't disagree that that might be there, some of that at play, and that really the ultimate end of this would bring, to bring one's self to the realization that you can't do this. At the same time, though, I think almost, especially in this one, I think, uh, it's not that Jesus withholds that, but I read that do, go and do likewise is this is what you said you wanted. You asked me for an answer, and I gave you the answer. You asked for the law- Yeah ... I will give you the law. So I actually don't know how this ended. It doesn't strike me that it ended well, and I think, I don't know if there was some kind of massive realization there, but it's almost as if there is some [00:31:00] obscuring of this. This is like typical parable, parable language where I think if you're there and you're listening, and you're trying to just track with the question and track how that compounds and corresponds with the law, that you would leave more destitute, more confused, and perhaps more angry than before, and certainly not in a position of understanding, "Well, th- this one before me is the Christ." But that's exactly what parables do. So again, I, I think to me- Right ... I see this more as certainly, again, there are these wonderful themes These kind of overtures of the gospel within, but they are dark and very obscured because the man asks a question about the law, and Jesus comes with a message about the law. And like you said, that law is- Yeah ... like, there's almost no grace in his tone as I read it because, not that he is not graceful or full of grace and gracious, but this guy asks for justification under the law. And so it ends with saying, it ends with this really phenomenal phrase, of course, of the lawyer realizing he's got himself [00:32:00] caught in having to respond truthfully in answering the question of who is the neighbor, but of course doesn't identify the neighbor except to say, "Oh, the one who has compassion," as if like he himself couldn't bring himself- Right to say these words. And then for Jesus to say, "Yeah, go do it," is, is kind of like the ultimate nail in the coffin.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and to tell a first century Jew to go and do, to be- Yes ... like a Samaritan is- Yes ... you know, e- even, even though that's not, like, highlighted in the text, you're right. Like, the, the lawyer probably couldn't bring himself to say the Samaritan was, right? And I, I think, um, you know, whether you take, uh, and maybe I'm novel on this. I guess I haven't really read, read a lot of people that take a, a more optimistic approach of this. But whether you take a more optimistic outcome approach or a more pessimistic or neutral, whatever, the, the actual outcome is the same, right? The, the lawyer is asking about self-justification under the law, like you said. Right. And Christ gives him [00:33:00] that. He tells him exactly what that means and what that looks like. And I think the, the impossibility of being the good neighbor as is described in the parable is exactly the sort of beat down of the law that, that, you know, we've talked about in the past is it's not as though, um, the, the, the actions of the Samaritan are not, uh, outwardly impossible, right? We- Right ... it's not unreasonable to think that someone could rescue someone from the side of the road and bring them to ... And like, the scenario itself is not that crazy. But the, the overall complex of the scenario, right? The fact that this man, um, was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, right? The, the ... All of this points to sort of like an impossible circumstance, an impossible situation. And, and the idea that even [00:34:00] within that impossible situation you're still expected to take care of the person who is your enemy, right? The Samaritan seeing a Jewish man beaten by the side of the road- That's right ... and although the parable doesn't specifically call out that he's Jewish, if he's going from Jerusalem to Jericho, there's an implication that he may actually also have been a priest. Um, we, we don't need to get into all the details on that, but there's, there's some good, uh, some good research out there that would point to the fact that the road from Jerusalem to Jericho is, uh, was actually a very common pathway traveled by either priests or Levites. And further evidence is that a priest and a Levite are also on this same road. And so the idea that the Samaritan would, um, would- Sacrifice of himself to take care of someone who very likely considers him to be an enemy, and sacrifices in a pretty significant way. Um, I, I'll, I'll pause and now as you're [00:35:00]talking I'll do all the, the background scrambling to make it look like I know exactly how much- a denari is supposed to, to be, and I know we've talked about it before, it's just not there.  Lavish Impossible Mercy Tony Arsenal: But, but it's not a- Yeah ... it's not a trivial amount of money. That's right. We're not talking about checking this guy into, like, a Motel 6 and, and dropping a couple hundred dollars. We're, we're talking about a substantial amount of money and, and we're talking about a commitment to pay whatever is required. Okay. An unknown amount of money for this man who has been left for dead. We're not talking about a minor injury. The, the robbers beat him up, they took his clothes, and they expected him to die in the desert. He needed to be carried on a donkey. He needed to have immediate first aid attention. We're talking about a, a relatively long-term recovery. So the scenario would be more like, we think of it like, "Oh yeah, I dropped him off at the local hotel for him to sleep it off." The scenario would be more like, "I found a guy on the side of the road. I didn't know who he was. He's, he's of a group of people that would consider me to be their enemy, and he's been shot 100 times, and I'm gonna patch up his [00:36:00] wounds. I'm gonna take him to the hospital. I'm gonna not only pay and say, 'Here, I, I've already used some supplies. Let me pay for that,' but I'm gonna pay for all of his medical bills until he's healed." Like, that's the scenario we're talking about. So it's not, it's not just, like, a good deed that has been done that is maybe, like, a really, really good deed, like it's a really nice thing to do. It's a, it's an outlandishly almost impossible to conceive of doing good deed. N- I don't know anyone, um, who would... And, and I know a lot of really great people. This is not a slam. I don't know anyone who would find a stranger on the road and who is, who's gravely injured and commit to pay for all of their medical care until they're healed. I just don't know anybody who would do that. Right. Um, some might say there's actually some wisdom in that, and, uh, we've talked about how sometimes the parables present a situation where maybe, like, this isn't actually the best practical knowledge. It's there to prove a point. Right. But I don't know anybody who, I don't know anybody who would do that, who, who would even think about doing that. Um, so the, the scenario here is one [00:37:00] of impossible lavish goodness being extended to those who you have no reason to be good to, and probably have reason to not be good to. That's what we're talking about. And so the, when the, the lawyer is told to go and do likewise, he's being told to do something that is impossible to fulfill, or even to conceive of fulfilling. And so there is this element of, like, "You think you can obey the law? Well, let me tell you how much you can't  Jesse Schwamb: obey  Tony Arsenal: the law."  Jesse Schwamb: Right. By the way, this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Like a good Samaritan, State Farm is there. Every time we've been saying good neighbor, I've been just been trying to avoid thinking about- Yeah Jake from State Farm. That's what I've been doing most of this time.  Tony Arsenal: Jake from State Farm?  Jesse Schwamb: Um, I totally agree, of course.  Priest Levite And The Law Jesse Schwamb: Like, what strikes me here is that it's, like you said, there is all this emphasis on what it means to show neighborly love, but the setup is also in those who basically should be showing it but aren't, and that's where we get, can get into this lovely... It's, [00:38:00] it's okay to kinda think through some of these characters. You know, for this priest and the Levite here, and what we know about them is that they, at first it sounds like there, there's almost this sense in the language like the priest falls ab- upon this, this, you know, bloodied man by chance, and that kinda heightens the drama, I think. The priest's confrontation is a little bit unplanned, but it's immediate and unavoidable, and he chooses to cross on the other side of the road, which is of course a deliberate act of avoidance. It's not mere obliviousness. And then the Levi almost goes further, or he came to the place, he saw him closer inspection, you know, greater culpability, and yet he still passes by. I really do wish I could hear this, like, in real time, like be among, because I have to- Yeah ... wonder that there'd be this kind of sense of building in the story. And the people might be kind of getting the sense that the characters that they know and love or should love as the heroes are not gonna be performing that way. And so I think even they're curious. They might be hoping against hope that it's gonna turn out well, but knowing the question and maybe something about Jesus, [00:39:00] they might anticipate that he's gonna go in a different direction. And so again, I think we have to stick with the text here. Like, Jesus doesn't explicitly state the motives of these gentlemen, but it's truthful. What's true- Right ... is that, like, these boys should have known better. You know, a lot of people have speculated that it was for ritual purity concerns or the, another ambush or social distance or just callousness. And I think that ambiguity might be deliberate because, again, what cuts against the lawyer here is whatever the specific excuse, the point is that these, like this kind of professional religiosity and even, like, meticulous law observance are of course not identical with, and probably can even distract or obstruct the love of neighbor that the law itself commands, which is wild, right? Because we talked about how, again, this just shows the law doesn't empower you to do the thing, and in fact, here- Right ... you could essentially abuse the law so that you suck the spirit right out of it and therefore do not do the very thing that it was intended to accomplish. So even this by itself, you just stop the parable here, it's kind of condemning because it's really this [00:40:00] potent warning against some kind of merely external ceremonial, professionalized religiosity that fails to produce, I guess, what Matthew calls, like, the weightier matters of law, like justice and mercy and faithfulness. And, you know, we should understand this because I think those that are from tradition have a certain affinity for the third use of the law as a guide for the grateful Christian living, and that's, you know, kind of what we're talking about here. But it insists that true law keeping is never merely ritual or notional, but it must issue in love, like costly love. Love outside of being inconvenienced is not genuine. I, I guess we'll get there. But, you know, I don't wanna harp on the characters as some are prone to do, but that is, I think, why the characters are here. It's both to set up and show, like, you're about to see that you really do not wanna identify by your own persuasion, by your own presuppositions with the one who's gonna be the hero, that is the, the one that shows neighborly love. At the same time, I'm gonna show you by way of condemnation that those who should exercise the greater love, [00:41:00] that do know better, that should know better, that should emblem- be emblematic of the spirit of the law, have done the exact same thing. Which I can only, uh, hope but believe is what this lawyer heard as well was that he was hearing that he was being stuck into this place before he was even given the question, well, who was the neighbor here? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think, um- There is a real sense in some of the parables that are sort of spoken against people. Um, this one doesn't specifically use that language, but it, it is a targeted, kind of a targeted response. There is a sense that throughout the course of the parable being told, they start to recognize midway through that they're like- Right you are the man. Like, this is one- Right, right ... of those Nathan and David kind of parables where, like, at some point the realization must have dawned on this guy that, like, "I've gotta be somebody in this parable." And I think that's where, where the, the challenging part is, is it's not clear, um, [00:42:00] it's not really clear even at the end of the parable who Christ is intending this guy to be, right? Right. Is he the lawyer or is he the, uh, is he the, the dead man on the side of the road, right? Is he... Or the dying man. Is, is he the l- the priest and Levite who pass by? Is he supposed to be the Samaritan, which would just be wildly offensive. Um, he's not necessarily, like, supposed to be anyone except for the fact that now at th- the punchline of the, the encounter here, Christ says, "Go and be like the Samaritan." And it's kind of like y- you know, if you were really following God's law, you would be the Samaritan in this one- Yeah, that's right ... but you're not. That's right. You're not and you can't be. Um, and so go, go ahead and do likewise.  Christ As True Neighbor Tony Arsenal: Um, I, I do think, too, there is some elements here where, um, I- Again, I, I think I take a little bit more of a typological, Christological-centered approach on this, but I, I don't think they're incompatible. But I do think there's an element here where Christ is also [00:43:00] unveiling, uh, sort of what he would do, like what, what his own plan of salvation is as the good, as the capital G, capital N good neighbor. Um, he is the one who does pour oil and wine on our wounds, right? A- and I don't wanna ... I don't think we need to fly off the allegorical deep end of reading oil and wine to be a reference to the Holy Spirit and t- Right but sometimes those things are evocative, indirect things that should, we should call our mind to those things. Like, I think, um, you know, when Melchizedek comes to bless Abraham and he, he presents him with bread and wine, right? I, I think, like, it's okay for us to go, "Wow, the Holy Spirit really made a point there that's subtle." And I think those little things within this parable drive me to look at this a little bit more along the lines of not only is there this sort of, like, law beat down, you [00:44:00] know, John Bunyan or not, um, Bunyan style, like the, "Moses just beat the crap out of me," kind of a- Right ... kind of a thing from Pilgrim's Progress. There's that, and I think it's really there. But it's also, uh, it's also sort of like this, uh, you know, "Blessed is the one who has ears to hear" side of it of, like, for those who are regenerated and can see the parable, can see the figures in the parable, it is now this beautiful picture of what it is that Christ does for those who cannot do it for themselves, right? And it's almost like the parable becomes a litmus test. If you look at the parable, and as you're reading through it, you sit there and you go, "Yeah, man, I'm like that guy who got beat up and left for dead. That, that really describes me," um, you're gonna get to the end of this and you're gonna be sort of, like, sitting in awe of, like, "Man, I have such a great savior who threw me on his donkey and, and promised to take care of all of my, all of my wounds, and promised to pay whatever it, whatever it cost." Um, y- you know, and all of these elements of, [00:45:00] like, oil and wine and, and all of these things be- kind of become alive to you in a way that someone who sees themselves as the, the good Samaritan, who thinks they're the one who's gonna come and rescue people, or I think increasingly in our day, and it's, it's weird to even say this, I think there are people who would look at this and resonate with the priest and lawyer and actually say, like, "Yeah, they shoulda, they shoulda crossed to the other side of the room." Mm-hmm. I've heard defenses of that in trying to argue that- The priest and the Levite, if they had, if this person was dead, they had touched the dead body, then, you know, they would've been ceremonially unclean. Uh, all of that is, I think, worth speculating about. But the reality is, um, who you see yourself in the parable actually says a lot, I think, about how you see Christ in light of either our ability to fulfill the law or our inability to fulfill the law, and therefore have our need for Christ. If you think you're the good Samaritan, if you think you're the one that's gonna come and [00:46:00] rescue people, that you're gonna be, you're gonna be the good neighbor, you're much more likely to see, uh, to, to be needing this as a sort of a law beat-down. Where those of us who, maybe this is the way you wanna parse it out, right? There's those of us who are, uh, regenerated and in Christ, and this is third-use law, right? This is, this is us- Right ... seeing what it means to be holy, and going and doing likewise, trying in our power, in our, our best to go and do likewise, empowered by the Holy Spirit, recognizing that we can't, and trusting the Lord to accept our feeble attempts- Right and be pleased by them. Right. Um, or maybe if you're not regenerated, this is f- this is first use, right? Right. And, and, and this is actually there to terrify you and to show you your condemnation and to serve as your condemnation. And, and there's even, and I didn't really intend to go all the way with this, but there's, there is also an element in here, and this is where, like, the mercy ministry interpretation comes in, where this is civil, this is civil law, where this is the, the, the, um, you know, the civil use of the law [00:47:00] to restrain evil, to show society what it is to be good, to, to restrain sin. Right. Yes, we want to be, uh, we, I would rather live in a society where people stop and help someone who's stranded or injured on the side of the road than, than a society where people pass by. Um, so I, I think all of those elements are in play here, and we do have to be careful not to take the full-on, like, never go full allegory approach to this, 'cause y- you can really... That's just a good general wisdom for all of, all of the Bible, but especially the parables and other figurative stuff. You can really just go totally far afield of what actually the point of the parable is- Right ... if you're not grounding it in the purpose that Christ is teaching it for, and, and the stated outcome of the parable, right? No one in the Bible makes c- I don't know that anyone in the Bible makes specific commentary on this within scripture, but the, the idea that, like, there's all these hidden meanings, well, if those are the hidden meanings, then why doesn't Christ talk about it? Why doesn't he come back- Right ... and [00:48:00] interpret those symbols later on like he does, like the Parable of the Sower or the Parable of the Seeds or Soils. Um, that one is much more directly allegorical in that the different seeds, the different soils represent specific people with specific s- scenarios. Christ comes and, and does that allegorical interpretation later on in the passage. There's nothing like that here. So I think we have to be really careful not to slip down that road. Jesse Schwamb: I think that it could be all those things. I, I totally agree with you on that. I think it could be all the use cases of the law. I think what makes this so wonderfully complex and a little bit tricky is that when I read this, I actually don't necessarily find myself gravitating toward putting myself in one place or the other. It almost depends on where I am or what's going on in my life. So for example, I think any time that any one of us, and we've all done this as Christians, have quenched the spirit, especially with respect to helping, serving, or loving others as my, our neighbor, then we're firmly in this parable in the place [00:49:00] of the priest and the Levite. Sometimes I think we are the one on the side of the road. We look to the church, to our brothers and sisters to help us, and what do they help us with? Like you were saying, Tony, they help us with that blood and oil. They help us with this, the power of the Holy Spirit, which is given to each one to help and to serve, to identify, to comfort with the comfort we ourselves have been received. And then I do think, and this might be unpopular, that, that sometimes by the grace of God, He empowers us to be the Samaritan, but only through His empowerment. Not, of course, because we're trying to just self-justify or because we're overtly generous in our own merit, but in fact, this is the way we ought to live, and that we ought to commend that kind of behavior to, again, acknowledge it as God-given and to promulgate it, especially among the body of believers. So I do think all three forms of the law are present there, but I do think I tend to, for whatever reason, right or wrong, I tend to tilt a little bit toward that third use here, just to see this as it's not wrong to, of course, to, I think, uh, lay over all of this, all these delightful variables and [00:50:00] details. Again, this idea of blood and oil, n- normative things, normal things, standard things that are being used to address- Yeah ... wounds. They're, they're... Of course, that would've been the practical way which you would've provided some kind of medicinal care to somebody in both that extreme circumstance, but also generally, because nobody's, like, keeping gauze or popping Advil to help this, this poor guy. And so it is- Right ... like this beautiful complexion of, I think, everything that we just talked about, that there is the law present, and depending on where you are, both in terms of your ingrafting into eternity, into the Kingdom of God, and then where you are in life, you- we should read ourselves probably, or l- let me say it this way, not so it's like eisegesis, but, like, that we should see ourselves often at different pli- times maybe playing or being tempted to play the parts of these different characters. And in that we find, I think, ultimately, of course, as you're saying, that Christ is over all, and that He is the one that, of course, perfectly emphasizes all of what it means to be the Savior, the [00:51:00] true loving neighbor who cares and binds and heals completely full stop. And yet there is something instructive here, I think, as well about going and bringing that compassion. I was just thinking, like, as we were talking, that there's such a difference, isn't there, like, in our world between these days, like, pity and compassion? Like, pity often is like, "Yeah, I feel sorry for you," but it strikes me as kind of like the James, is it James 1 or James 2, where it's kind of like, "Oh, you're... I, I'm so sorry that, like, you're, you're hungry and cold. You know what? Go, be warm, and be well-fed." You know, that's like pity. Like, "Yeah, I just- Yeah ... I feel a little bad. I identified with your emotions." Sending  Tony Arsenal: good vibes.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I've got- Yeah. Yeah. That's right, right? Sending good thoughts and good vibes your way. I wanna say, like, keep those to yourself 'cause they're probably not all that- Yeah ... good. Um- I  Tony Arsenal: don't want your vibes.  Jesse Schwamb: I don't want your vibes. Get your vibes out of here. What I need is that power of God himself, uh, to bring compassion, and compassion is always wrapped in action. It identifies- Right ... and then goes. It, it's, it [00:52:00] is not self-promoting, it's self-sacrificing. And so that rule of law, which is like the good rule of law, the good teaching, the kind that brings life because it's the Decalogue wrapped in skin perfectly performed by the power of the Holy Spirit through the one who is perfect again in his passive obedience and active obedience. Yes, yes, we need, we need all of that. It's modeled here, I think, to a certain extent, but I think the go and do likewise is actually for all of us, but it's not the kind like we would say, "Well, like, good luck." It's more the- Yeah ... you know the one from whose side the blood flowed. You know the one who is pressed in the garden as if olives under the press leaking oil. You know who that one was, and that one is His spirit resides in you. So now go and do these acts- Yeah ... of mercy. Again, not s- for some kind of meritorious reward, but because you were made for good works, which were set apart for you to do, and part of those good works are [00:53:00] just always being a good neighbor. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and, and maybe to, to close out, I, I, I think maybe we actually did it. I don't know that we're gonna have to do another episode on this. I guess we'll see after we do- Who would've guessed? ... our postmortem here.  Mary Martha And Final Charge Tony Arsenal: But I, I think part, part of, um, part of what we need to at least acknowledge is that what, what follows this parable, right? This, this goes from a parable of a lawyer seeking to justify himself to now the account of Mary and Martha, and the fact that, uh, that, um, M- Martha, you know, is busy with much work, and Mary is sitting and listening to, to Jesus and is said to have chosen the better part. And I think, like- Mm ... this is something that I think because of the way, like, Bibles are formatted, the way that certain things are sort of, like, extracted out as discrete teaching units, this parable is pulled out and separated from this next part. And I, I think we can [00:54:00] really run into problems when we do that because- You know, even if we, even if we were to sort of treat the scripture as, like, a purely human book, right? Luke chose to put this account of Mary and Martha after this, right? And, and- Right ... probably not just because, like, it happened chronologically. There's no real, um, there's no real necessity that this account of Mary and Martha in this particular story had to happen immediately afterwards. Like, there's no organic link in, in the chronology of the story to drive that, right? And the two aren't related in terms of, like, historical cause and effect or, uh, proximity. There's none of those things. So the only answer as to why this was selected to follow the parable of the Good Samaritan is that there's some thematic connection that drove Luke as an author to put this, put this right following that. And so I think even that should drive us to thinking about, all [00:55:00] right, we've got this statement of go and do likewise, show mercy. Now there's almost this foil that the, the, the person in, in the account in the, the narrative here, and a, a true narrative, right? We're not in parable land anymore, but the person in the narrative that seems to be showing mercy, seems to be taking care of people the most, is actually the one who's chastised a little bit for, for being- Right overly zealous about m- mercy ministry, hospitality ministry- Right ... is what you might call it. She's the one who's like, "Tell my sister to help me with this." And she said, like, "You know, you're always gonna have time to do this, but, like, I'

In this episode, Tiff and Nikki talk about a critical piece under the marketing umbrella: networking with people in your community across different "genres" of expertise. They discuss knowing your demographic, building a two-way street of referrals, leaning on your hobbies, and a ton more ways to get your business out there and being talked about. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are excited to be here. I say it every single time and we truly, truly mean it. I think you guys believe me and know that by now Nikki is here with me today. Nikki, thank you so much for being here. this is our podcasting morning and we block out the a morning, we do a couple hours and make sure that we get the best content we possibly can out to everyone. I'm actually really excited about this one. We just talked through it. for those of you who don't know, our marketing company, they   comb the internet and they comb our calls, they look through all of the data and information they possibly can and look for the best topics they can help us think of, and then they deliver those topics over to us. So for all of you out there, if there's a topic, subject that you've loved you want more of, please let us know. If there's a topic that you're like, gosh, I wish these ladies would just talk about this or dive into this more, let us know. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com   you can tag any one of us in there. Doug is our podcast guru in the background today. and of course we're the ones recording them. So if you've got ideas, we love ideas. We love nothing more than to bring you the stuff that you guys actually need. So Nikki, how are you this morning? Thank you for being here. We were talking earlier about our random Arizona summer storm, which I think it's gone and it's like just hot and humid now, and here we are. So anyways, how are you today?   Nikki Mack (01:23) so good. I know recovering all the damage, you know, the flipped over chairs, the lawn furniture. Nothing flew out of the yard this storm. So always a win, but I'll take it. The hot is worth it because the storms are beautiful. And   Tiffanie (01:37) They are.   Nikki Mack (01:37) in a couple months it's gonna be amazing. We're gonna be really, really happy. Maybe we podcast outside. Just kidding. That's crazy. But   Tiffanie (01:44) you would be so happy.   Nikki Mack (01:45) happy to be here this morning inside in my AC in the aftermath of the storm for sure.   Tiffanie (01:52) Same. Kiera and I did podcast because I think we've done it twice. We've done we've podcasted from South Mountain here in Arizona. Yeah. And   Nikki Mack (01:59) Amazing.   Tiffanie (02:00) that was when that was I mean that was gosh, we were just starting. That was a long time ago. And then we've podcasted from a mountain across the street from her house in Nevada. So and that was our I think that was our birthday podcast last year or the year before. So you never know. We might end up outside. I do love being outside as an Arizona native.   as I'm sure you do as well when it's not 115 or humid. Yeah. Arizona   Nikki Mack (02:25) When it's one hundred and fifteen.   Tiffanie (02:28) doesn't do well with humidity. Like it's been a little humid this summer, and I'm like by a little I mean like there's been like five to ten percent humidity out there, and you feel every ounce of it. So I'm ready for just good weather. so with that, thinking about outside, thinking about outside of ourselves, I love   marketing. It's one of my favorite things in the whole wide world. Like to me, I think communication is marketing. Like I'm constantly marketing myself, right? Who I am, how I show up, and like how I speak to people is marketing. I I just think marketing is showing up in a certain way to get the result that you want. And people overextend it, they overcomplicate it and they think that they have to do it a very certain way. And the reason marketing is   It's a an amazing tool, but the reason it sucks is because it's really hard to like guarantee results, right? So there isn't a certain way. There are multiple stabs in the dark that we take to get different results. And luckily, our blessing is that we get to see a lot of those different ways. We have a lot of practices. We've worked in a lot of practices. We've taken shots in the dark and   really figured out and narrowed in some things that work. And today I really wanted to talk about like strategic community networking and becoming partners with different people in the in the community, different networks in the community and just different genres outside of dentistry. And I think it's really important for dental practices and dental practice owners, business owners in general to do this. I know Toastmasters used to be like this massive thing. It's still here. Like I know someone who does Toastmasters and   She's like the shyest, like most internal person. She's like, I will learn how to talk to people. And so like Toastmasters is still a thing, but the best thing about Toastmasters is wasn't hasn't always been that you learn how to speak in public. It's the community that you build and those referrals, right? And you know, my fiance is a business professional and   Within his profession, he goes to networking events a lot. He's not a good, like he he's a very internal person as well. But he goes and he does these networking events because then he can refer his own clients or his friends. We've used people to, you know, by referral. And building that network totally changes the game because it's a bit like it's a forward and backwards. Like I refer to you, you refer to me, we know each other.   We help each other, all of those different pieces. So I wanted to talk a ton today about how to strategically build that community as a small business owner and a dental practice owner, you know, in any town. And Nikki to your point earlier and maybe speak to this a little bit, you were saying the reason that we and the reason marketing isn't super cookie cutter.   is because we all live in different demographics. But I do think we have some great ideas that could work anywhere. But Nikki, take us through some of what you were talking about there. Like why does it make a difference that where we live?   Nikki Mack (05:42) Absolutely.   Also, quick nerd alert. Five years in Toastmasters back in the day. So a hundred percent.   Tiffanie (05:47) There you go, I knew it. I should have known that.   Nikki Mack (05:52) yeah, I think when we talk about, you know, things not being cookie cutter and knowing your demographic marketing, especially, especially if we're talking community outreach, is a huge place to be in. you know your demographic. This isn't even where I'm like, okay, doctor, sit down and like think about your patients. You know your patience, your team knows your patients.   What is important in your area? What are the things that people post about, go to, talk about? And then being able to lean into that opportunity. Do you have if you're a pediatric office, right? We were just talking about this one. are you right in the middle of a bunch of school districts or a lot of school areas? Do the school nurses have your office information, right? do you participate in teacher appreciation week?   Like what does your outreach look like in those areas? Because not just for the teachers who deserve the world, of course, but also that's when they talk to parents, right? Or the parents that come and see who's taking care of their teachers as well, you're building that not just relationship, but that reputation. And that's what really drives those referrals, that culture, that everything we talk about. Now, maybe if you're a very specialized, I don't know, periodist.   sponsoring teacher appreciation day might not yield the same results, right? So this is where I say, like, know your area, know your demographic. every city has a chamber of commerce, right? the action level and what you kind of get for that membership varies everywhere. But if you look into it and it responds well with your culture and what you're driven, especially if you're very community focused and they do have a lot of those opportunities.   Reach out, right? You know, sign up, try it out for a year. Usually it's an annual membership or so, because the relationships you're gonna build to Tiff's point with those other business owners in the community too are going to be very impactful and possibly spread that reach even further than you would have thought of. And a network who's also trying to actively market and grow their business, what a resource. Because we may not all   Tiffanie (08:02) I see.   Nikki Mack (08:02) be dental, but we can share best practices.   share opportunities and even partner on certain things sometimes. So knowing your demographic, knowing what's really key and crucial, so important. If you're a downtown people commute in, you're right by all the businesses, well, the community pieces might look a little different for you. And so maybe you find out that who did what who did we use Wells Fargo, right?   Tiffanie (08:29) Mm-hmm.   Nikki Mack (08:30) Wells Fargo corporate building is a block from your office.   Does that HR lady know your name, right? Are you guys in network or do you file out of network for them? Knowing your audience is a great way to start before we just cause marketing when it doesn't work is exhausting. So let's be strategic to start and and get some really good results.   Tiffanie (08:54) Yeah, I love all of that. All of that. There are a few pieces there I wanna point out. You said referrals, right? Well, you said periodonist that might not yield the same results and it made me think, Okay, well, how much work are we doing to build the relationship back with those referring practices? I know when I was in that or in office I used to ha have a gosh, get my words together, an orthodontist.   that was really had a really close relationship with our doctor because of a community networking group that they were a part of outside of the dental practice and they routinely sent us families because families found them without a GP dentist because they knew their kid, their teenager needed braces, right? So they'd go to the orthodontist but need a GP dentist so they'd refer him over. Same with periodonists, you know, people look up implant, they end up at an oral surgeon or or a periodontist and they don't have a GP. You guys need them.   To have a GP, so you send them over. So making sure we're building that two-way street of referrals is huge. The Chamber of Commerce, I love this Chamber of Commerce situation and I've seen it really spike up recently with a few practices that we're working with. And I I have one that comes to mind and he'll know exactly who he is. he joined the Chamber of Commerce a few years ago. He's one of the business owners, but he's also the the like practice manager. He manages the business manager, right?   He joined the Chamber of Commerce for their practice when they relocated into a bigger building and he did it in order to really get to know the community. They lived outside of their community, about an hour outside the community that they worked in for a long time. Then they decided to move to that area, and now they're about five minutes down the road from the practice, which is super convenient. But they didn't feel like they knew the community. They felt like they were outsiders and they wanted to be more invested and involved. So they joined the Chamber of Commerce.   And they really started showing up at different events. They started doing, he did a leadership course through the Chamber of Commerce and through the the City Community College there. He knows everyone in that town. Like they have so many connections and so many amazing businesses that support them and vice versa, they support. And something that I don't think people really understand about the Chamber of Commerce is that it's like just that networking piece, the emails that say, hey,   We've got a ribbon cutting event coming up. Like, cool, there's a ribbon cutting event for a small business. Let me go show face and shake hands and say hello to the new owner and welcome them to business ownership. If there's anything that you come across, by all means, I've been through a lot. I might not know it all, but I might have something to offer and just be a neighbor, like be a friendly neighbor. Those community networking pieces could go so far.   And something else you made me think of. I don't remember why I thought of it, but I thought I think you said knowing your demographics, and you said like what what plays to them, right? And then I thought, Nikki, I've never thought of this before, and I think it might be gold mine. I'm not sure. What   Nikki Mack (11:55) Yeah.   Tiffanie (11:56) are your hobbies? Right? What do you love to do? So I'm thinking we're in Phoenix, so we have a lot of foodies, right? We've got a million restaurants here. So what if a dentist who is a foodie who loves food or a team member   Who is a foodie and loves food, and they go and they try all these restaurants, and you're out there, right? I have we have a restaurant in downtown Buckeye, Arizona. It's phenomenal, best Mexican food I've ever had in my life. And I have grown up in Arizona. Best food. Okay. I tell everyone about this place. What what if your dental practice that's like, hey, these are our monthly newsletters, and also let me highlight our restaurant this month.   what restaurant did we go to and we love in our community or in thirty minutes from here? Because now it's become something that's not just brush your teeth, floss. Like people don't I'm not gonna lie, most people are not reading those. Like they're not they're not. They're just not, right? But if you catch their attention with something like the best hike I've taken since I've lived in Arizona, best hike of the month, best restaurant, best ice cream. I have a doctor who loves popcorn. Like where are you getting your best popcorn? What's your   popcorn flavor this month. Like spice it up a little bit with something that's different. Because as I was as you were speaking earlier and I thought of that, I thought, how cool would it be to be like, you're going to that restaurant? I've actually heard of that. And I'm like, where did you hear about it? It's so obscure. And they're like, actually my dentist. Who's your dentist? Because now you've just created a new conversation topic that you can insert yourself into in a network of people across your whole city.   Nikki Mack (13:37) Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of do you know how sometimes coffee shops or like little bakeries or cafes will have like the question of the day and you   Tiffanie (13:46) Mm-hmm.   Nikki Mack (13:47) answer when you come in? I've seen some dental practices do that, right? Like they have   Tiffanie (13:51) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (13:52) their question of the week or you know, question of the month. and it's just that fun little connection, like you said, and especially if it's something community driven, like what's your favorite Mexican place around here? What's your favorite restaurant? Who's your favorite coffee shop?   to drive kind of that conversation and connection because yeah, then if someone goes and tries it, it's like, how did you hear about us? And you're like, my dentist, actually.   Tiffanie (14:13) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (14:14) it's such a like full circle moment, especially if it's someone that you have partnered with in the past, whether it's meeting each other at a ribbon cutting or you know being at some other event, or they just maybe they're a patient too, right? Like there's always those small world connections and finding ways to close those little links there.   it's always such a neat and unique opportunity because this is why we talk about referrals are the best source for patients because you're it's patients you love referring people they love, right? To come into your practice and they know who you are and like what your culture is. And so when you build those relationships with our networking sources or referral sources and opportunities, it's that same type of environment where they're gonna be referring people   that   fit like what you're looking for and kind of fit that mold. so you just you put so many opportunities out there by by making those connections. I I love that. Also after the cast, I'll need that restaurant. we'll check it out. Okay. Yeah.   Tiffanie (15:14) Totally. Yeah, I will. I will. I'll send it to you. It's so good. It's so   good. and also I was thinking you said, if you've partnered with that person or if they're patients, like why not host we do Invisalign days all the time, right? Or ortho days, Clearliner days, Candid Pro days, whatever you're calling them. and you also do study clubs. Like study clubs are   Nikki Mack (15:38) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (15:39) cool because you need the CE. But study clubs are not like you're not   generating a lot of referrals because it's a bunch of other dentists, right? Why not host a networking like day, right? Or or a couple hours and a networking group in your dental practice on a Friday morning from like eight to ten AM. You can have muffins and donuts and coffee and orange juice and water and invite your patients that have businesses, real estate agents, insurance brokers, financial advisors, they're all in your patient base, I promise you.   Doesn't mean you have to use them. It means, hey, I know that there's a community of people here who need a networking group. I would love to do a once a month networking group or once a quarter network networking group for two hours. Invite your patients and invite your patients to invite their friends.   Nikki Mack (16:29) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (16:29) Everyone knows somebody. So bring a buddy, maybe every third one. I mean, I would do everyone, but I would do bring a buddy. Like bring a buddy and get a free ticket.   you know, to enter to win the blackstone. I don't know. Do something, but if you were to host something like that for your patients and for local businesses nearby, bam, more. And you're just the whole point in this is marketing is is hard. Marketing is difficult. And we rely on outside sources to do a lot. And I love nothing more Nikki than to look at what can I do? What can I control?   And building a strategic community network, all all it does is start self-promoting your business. Be a good person, know good people. People talk about you. So this whole thing is not only fun, I think, and some doctors might say, like, yeah, you're crazy, you like people. Cool, have your office manager   Nikki Mack (17:26) Yeah.   Tiffanie (17:27) do it. Like, I don't know, ask somebody in your practice is gonna want to do something like this. But what it's doing is it's building your patient base with   out paying for new patients. It's it's a outside the box, out of the normal way of expanding your reach into your community to bring in new patients to your practice to grow your dental practice that's just completely outside the box. And I think in 2026 and whatever year moving forward, you're listening to this, outside the box is what we have to do. The norm just isn't cutting it anymore. You can't just place Google ads   And expect the floodgates to open. You can't just send postcards to your neighbors and expect the floodgates to open. You've got to do something different that gets attention. And building that community and that networking group not only helps you, but it helps all of those other people. And that's when those floodgates open, in my opinion.   Nikki Mack (18:28) I   agree. And I think to your point with when you think outside the box and you come up with an idea, right? Or your team comes up with an idea because it's maybe something they saw or heard or read about, or maybe an idea shared on the Discord that another doctor in a different state   Tiffanie (18:42) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (18:43) used, right? And you're like, I want to do that. Here's what I feel like happens a lot. I want to do that, but I know I don't have time. And so I shelve   Tiffanie (18:50) Mm.   Nikki Mack (18:50) it. Right. Or like, I don't have the bandwidth. Like I absolutely love the network hosting idea.   I don't have the bandwidth to organize that. Well, guess what? There's probably a local group already out there that is doing these things or looking for places to meet. I know in my neighborhood area in Phoenix, we have this huge Facebook group that they do a lot for networking. There's a couple people who run it. They host networking events. They host like open table nights for the neighborhood for people to come and meet each other. And one of the things that they're always looking for is places.   to host. So   Tiffanie (19:27) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (19:28) maybe you don't have the bandwidth currently to create a networking group, right? And host them and do all of the the kind of legwork. Absolutely. But if you like that idea and you have the space, if you have a beautiful break room, right? Or a beautiful lobby, reach out. I bet you or someone on the team knows a local group. Do a quick little local search, right? Reach out.   make sure that they fit, you know, it's the right type of group, their their kind of vision or what they're searching out to do is what you align with. But I'll tell you what, I've been that person trying to find locations and organize groups and where to meet. And when somebody comes out like, hey, you can use my space, here's what it would look like, right? Here's how we could make it work. my gosh, like game changing. And then now you have just solidified your piece like in this network.   And now that's going to create so much opportunity because we all know once they come in the office and experience you and your team, game changer, right? And they have that   Tiffanie (20:28) Yeah, I agree.   Nikki Mack (20:29) opportunity to do it. So any idea, it doesn't just have to be the network hosting. But if you hear something or see something or think of something and your first thought is, I don't have the bandwidth, don't drop it. How do we pivot? What can we do? How do we adjust it? How do we tweak it so that it is something we could fit in, at least in some companies.   Capacity. And that's where your consultants come in, right? I love those messages, Nikki. I had a great idea. I'm like, yes, lay it on me. Let's talk about it. So you're not alone. You don't have to figure out how to make it work. If it's a great idea, let's work it out. Let's talk it through and see how we can make it work for your practice. You have a network. you have consultants, you have the other doctors with the Dental A Team. There's being out of the box means all hands on deck sometimes. So   Tiffanie (21:18) I agree. one last idea, you were talking bandwidth and I I agree. And I thought, like, okay, you can you said earlier, teacher appreciation, right? Make sponsoring that could also sponsor the mommies and muffins and muffins and mom, like whatever it is, like those types of things as well. But also you could go to the donut shop or the kofi coffee shop or whatever like local small business is near you and say, Hey, here's two hundred dollars.   the next two hundred dollars worth of purchases is on me. So when somebody comes and they order their coffee, all I ask is that you let them know that we purchased it for them and we want them to have a great day. Write a little like motivational like have a great day. You are loved, you are seen, you are whatever on a little card. Give that to the desk and let the let $200 worth of money be your marketing for the morning for that coffee shop. Something   that's just different and people are like, wow, that was so unheard of. Okay, that was my last idea. Listen to this. There's a ton of ideas in here, you guys. And the biggest piece is strategically build your community. Your network, what does Kiera say? There's a there's Kiera doesn't it's not her saying, but it's someone's right. But your net worth is directly correlated to your network. And so the people that you know, the people who are help building you up, the people who are   referring back and forth, the the people that you call when business sucks and even though they're not indental, they can relate to you because they own a business. That's your network, right? So build your net worth by reaching out and building your community network. See what you can do to help other people. Nikki, this was really fun. Thank you for taking the journey with me. I know I made a lot of stops and pivots and turns, but that's what marketing is. So thank you and thank you for your time this morning that you blocked out for me.   Nikki Mack (23:13) Always, thanks for having me. Love talking marketing. Always happy to work through stuff. So I'm really excited to see what some of our listeners come up with.   Tiffanie (23:23) I agree. I agree. And with that, go brainstorm. Drop us a five-star review below and let us know what you did, whether it was something we suggested or something you thought of on your own. Let us know what you thought of. We want to share all of these with the community. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We are here to help you to work through it, to brainstorm, to do all of the fun pieces. So let us know how we can best support you. And with that, we will catch you next time.  

C'est frustrant de ne pas avancer sur un projet auquel tu crois vraiment.C'est exactement ce que racontait Nabil dans le dernier épisode En route : une super idée, une vraie conviction… mais pas le temps de s'y consacrer.Dans cette Minute Marine, je te propose plusieurs pistes pour comprendre d'où vient cette frustration… et voir si tu peux l'éliminer, ou au moins mieux vivre avec.Est-ce que toi aussi tu as un projet que tu laisses de côté en ce moment ? Qu'est-ce qui te bloque vraiment ?(Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

How to Improve EVERY Aspect of Your Life: An Interview with J.R. Briggs (Episode 297)   Proverbs 11:24 (MSG) The world of the generous gets larger and larger; the world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller.   *Transcription Below*   J.R. Briggs (DMin) possesses four passions: following Jesus, equipping and investing in hungry kingdom leaders, growing fruit on other people's trees, and creating good kingdom mischief. In short, his calling is to partner with people who are called to follow Jesus while they lead others.   In 2011 he started Kairos Partnerships, an organization committed to help leaders overcome their unique leadership challenges through leadership coaching, consulting, speaking, and writing.   For more than 15 years, J.R. served in pastoral roles in mega-churches, church plants and house church networks. Since starting Kairos Partnerships, he has served and invested in ministry leaders in over 40 denominations throughout North America. In addition to ministry leaders, he has invested in a wide variety of leaders, including business owners, college presidents, military leaders, Division 1 basketball coaches, and non-profit directors.   He serves as a guest instructor in the Master of Arts in Spiritual Formation program at Friends University and the Master of Arts in Leadership program at Taylor University. He has lectured, taught and spoken at over a dozen colleges, universities, and seminaries around the U.S.   He also serves as the Director of Leadership & Congregational Formation for The Ecclesia Network and as a National Trainer & Strategist for Fresh Expressions U.S.   In addition to writing several books on a wide variety of topics, he has also published articles in Christianity Today, Huffington Post, Preaching Today, American Bible Society, N.T. Wright Online, Missio Alliance, and Relevant Magazine.   He hosts the Resilient Leaders podcast.   J.R. and his wife Megan have two sons and live in the greater Philadelphia area. J.R.'s Website J.R.'s Book   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management   Questions and Topics We Cover: Can you contrast Jesus' teaching with field trips to the way we structure a typical Sunday morning in America?  Will you also share how you arrived at asking yourself two questions that have opened numerous doors for you? Once we put this into practice for ourselves, how can we begin to cultivate it in our children as well?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 219. Training Our Children in Biblical Financial Stewardship with Matt Bell   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:44) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   J.R. Briggs is one of the most intriguing humans I've encountered, and it's hard to sum up his bio, as he's had so many experiences in his past through various pastoral roles, and then he became the founder of Kairos Partnerships, where he invests in leaders. He's also a podcast host, in addition to his work as an author. His most recent book is The Art of Asking Better Questions, and it's summed up in the intro, where he writes, "I have a bone-deep conviction that all of us need to ask more questions and better questions. Doing so can change your life and the lives of those around you." So now we get to actually learn how to make this happen with my guest, Reverend Dr. J.R. Briggs.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, J.R.   J.R. Briggs: (1:44 - 1:45) Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to this, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (1:46 - 2:00) Well, I'd love to go back and first hear a little bit more of your origin story. So, do you attribute your love of questions and your skill for asking great questions more to nature or nurture?   J.R. Briggs: (2:01 - 5:04) That's a fantastic question. No one has ever asked me that, Laura. So, right off the bat, well done. I love good questions like this. I think it's a little bit of both, and I'm not just wimping out on that answer. Here's what I mean.   I grew up in a wonderful home, still great friends with both my parents, and my parents, especially my dad, they were great question askers, and I saw them model this really well in the home. And I think in previous generations, it was, you know, kids are to be seen but not heard. That was not how my parents operated. They very much said, "You know what, we want to know what you think." And so, dinner times were great. Even hearing the way, especially my father would ask questions of people in the lobby at church or our neighbors, or we'd be at some party, and the way he would ask questions, I would just listen and say, "Wow, this is fascinating, the kind of conversations that are happening because of this."   So, modeled really well, but also observed a lot, and more is caught than taught. And I observed my parents doing this really well. And I thought, these are really fun conversations to just eavesdrop in on as a kid. And then also, I began to notice that there were people that were really fun and lived inspiring lives, and they asked great questions. And I noticed the people that had, that lived really small, uninspiring lives, I realized they weren't asking very many questions. And I began to say, "Well, which kind of person do I want to be? I kind of want to be in the first group. Well, what's the difference? These people are asking questions, regular questions, quality questions." And I thought, "Ooh, I need to pay attention to this and actually lean in to do this more."   So, I often learned how to do it too. So, there was the nature piece, the nurture piece, or the nurture, the nature piece there, the nurture piece, I did study. I'm kind of a nerd. And so, I would watch people who ask great questions and say, "Why was that a good question? What did they do? Why did they ask it that way? How did they know to ask that question as opposed to something else?" And so that was really helpful.   But then I began to notice as I read my Bible, I got a red-letter edition of my Bible and began to notice how many red question marks there were. And I began to take a pen and circle all of the red questions, question marks that Jesus asked. And I thought, "Wow, the way the truth and the life, who had all the answers, yet he asked a ton of questions." So that sent me on a deep dive that eventually I studied. And my doctorate, my dissertation for my doctorate was on learning to equip leaders to ask better questions in the way of Jesus. And so, using him as that model. So, there's a very long answer, Laura, to a very short question, is it nature or nurture? I really believe it's both. And I hope I can continue to learn in my own life until my last breath to how to be a better question asker, because it's that powerful.   Laura Dugger: (5:04 - 5:57) Mm-hmm. I agree with that. And I love the humility in that response. Also, as you share it, it reminds me of a scripture from Proverbs 11:24, the Message version, which I believe previous guest Matt Bell had shared this as it relates to finances. But J.R., I hear it through your lifestyle of generosity with questions. And the verse says, "The world of the generous gets larger and larger. The world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller." So, I love how you illustrated that. But you're also the first person that I heard articulate this beauty of asking questions for connection rather than just for information. So, can you explain more of why questions are such a generous gift and an offering of hospitality?   J.R. Briggs: (5:58 - 8:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, one of the things that really hit me, I touched on this earlier, that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, the second member of the Trinity, who knows everything. Why would he ask so many questions? Well, he also said, "I only do what I see my Father doing." What did he see his Father doing? If you look in the Old Testament, God asks a ton of questions too. So, I said, "Wait a second. Okay. The all-knowing, all-powerful God of the universe, why does God ask so many questions when he already knows the answer?" And that drove me to say, maybe it wasn't just for information.   And I began to think about Adam and Eve in the garden and say, when he says, "Where are you?" It wasn't because God didn't know. And it wasn't a geographical question as much as I think it's a relational and theological question that he wants Adam and Eve to answer. And so, as a result of that, I said, "Why then would God do that?" Well, God already knows, but he desires connection with us. And then I thought, "Ooh, yeah, that isn't just God to us. There are times where I ask questions of my kids when they were younger, or of other little kids at church, where I know the answer already, but I'm asking it as a way of building trust and shared story and connection with them."   And I thought, yeah, there's real connection when it comes to questions. And when we do that, when we offer our full selves, the French philosopher, Simone Weil, she said, "Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity." And as a result of that, that's the hospitality piece. And I think, let's not forget that the word hospital is in the word hospitality, that our questions and our attention can actually be a form of healing that we offer to other people. When we think of hospitality, we often think of, I don't know, making a fresh pie or laying out doilies and sweeping the house before someone comes over. That can be part of it. But the real definition of hospitality is making new people feel comfortable in new situations. And so, what do good questions do? They help people who might feel new or an outsider feel like they're an insider. And I believe that's one of the beautiful benefits of questions where people say, "Man, thank you. No one has ever asked me that." Or "I feel seen. Wow, you really want to care. You care enough to know what I'm thinking." That is an unbelievable gift that we can give to others as a form of hospitality.   Laura Dugger: (8:36 - 8:55) And I think that illuminates what you even say up front in your book, that you do believe that these questions can change our life and the lives of those around us, and especially through this powerful book that you've written. So, can you elaborate on that claim?   J.R. Briggs: (8:56 - 10:33) Yeah, the dimensions of your life expand or contract depending upon the questions that you ask. So, when we refrain from asking good questions, our world gets smaller. And when we start to ask better questions, and more frequently, our worlds begin to expand. And so, what I tell people is we don't have a shortage of information. We have a shortage of wisdom and curiosity and wonder. And so, what we need to kindle in that is that desire for and that ability to ask the right questions at the right time for the right reason to the right people.   And if we want more information, we should just Google it. But if what we're after is wisdom and connection and engagement, we need questions. And questions are, I think we all would admit, Laura, questions are important. I don't think that we would realize just how powerful they actually are. And so, the goal of the book was to unleash and wake up the sleeping giants that exist and say, this can be used for good. There's so many, again, we don't have a shortage of information. But asking good questions is a lost art. And the goal is to try to help people realize its power, that it's more accessible. They're free. They can be used at any time. They don't have a shelf life. But we just need to cultivate the desire for it and then have some skills to lean in, because it really can be such an unbelievable gift. The questions that we ask often reveal the values that we hold. And so that's another way that we can press into that as well.   Laura Dugger: (10:34 - 10:49) Okay, so let's say that the desire is there. Maybe for all of us, probably the skill is a little lacking. How can we begin to get a little bit better at this or just get started with asking better questions today?   J.R. Briggs: (10:49 - 14:18) Yeah, well, we got to start, Laura, by admitting that there are a lot of obstacles that exist that our culture puts in front of us to make it hard to do that. One is we're in an attention-seeking age, right? I mean, the joke says enough about me, what do you think about me? And so, because we live in the social media, look at me, look at me reality that we're in, it's really hard because questions are the opposite. I'm putting the spotlight on you rather than on my own life. But we also are in a culture of great efficiency, and so questions feel inefficient. They feel really inefficient, like it slows things down. How many of us have been in a meeting and we're about to get up and someone says, "Any questions?" And someone, "Oh," and we just say, "No, no, no, we were just about to leave, you're slowing us down." And so that in the business world and in sales, that's the number one thing is questions. We got stuff to do and things to sell. But if we can just slow down, it's better.   But those are some of the obstacles that exist. So, if we're assuming we have curiosity, we have wisdom, we have humility, and we have courage, which are the four components. If those are there, then there are some things that we can engage in that can help us and several practices, like the simplest practice we can do when we hear a good question, write it down. A lot of people feel like two things. They have to come up with all the questions themselves. You don't. I love questions. I'm pretty good at questions, but I don't generate all my questions. I've read them on billboards or heard them on a podcast or overheard somebody in line at Starbucks behind me. And you go, "Man, that's a really good question. Write it down." We think we're going to remember later, Laura, and that's the second thing. We won't. We have to write it down. And I just encourage people, open up the notes section of your phone and just have something on there that says great questions. When you hear of one, think of one, read of one in a good novel, write it on the list. You can always return to it later. So, just awareness, number one, that my radar is up, listening for good questions, can be a great start.   And then also just to reflect later to say, "What was the best question I asked today or in that conversation or in that meeting or over dinner with my family? What was the best question I asked?" So, that's a little bit of reflection, but also preparation. Anytime we go into a meeting, anytime we go into any sort of connection, even if it's coffee with a friend, to always see if I can come with two questions ahead of time. Now, sometimes I write them down, sometimes I don't. I may not even get a chance to ask them, but just coming prepared where I say, "Oh, I'm meeting with my friend, Sam. Oh, Sam's dad just had significant surgery. So, here's an important question. Sam, how's your dad doing? And how are you doing as you care for your dad?" It's a little bit of preparation. It's not an hour. I'm just spending five minutes on my drive to the coffee shop to say, "My first question is going to be, Sam, how's your dad? And how are you doing caring for your dad?" So, just a little bit more thought. It doesn't require three times the amount of effort. Sometimes it's just five or 10% more effort and intentionality that can improve our question asking.   Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 16:29) So much thoughtfulness there. Appreciate that.   And now a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, and Washington, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering; the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection. Featuring nine-foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes such as quartz countertops and garages, you won't want to miss this outstanding new property.   In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.   Clearly J.R., Jesus has been a role model for asking questions. So, can you contrast what you describe as Jesus's field trips that he takes his disciples on versus the way that you view Sunday mornings in a lot of churches in America? Can you kind of contrast those two?   J.R. Briggs: (16:29 - 18:42) Yeah, oftentimes when I'm talking to pastors or leaders, faith leaders, I remind them of this. But yeah, Jesus loved to take his listeners on three field trips, three kinds. First one, he took them on physical field trips. We see that where Jesus says, "You know, look at the birds of the air, look at the lilies of the field," or "Look at the woman putting in two mites in the temple treasury." Life is a classroom. And so, he loved taking people on literal field trips.   Number two, he took them on emotional field trips by telling them stories, not in abstract ways of thinking, but the kingdom of God is like a woman kneading dough. It's like a fisherman who caught fish. It's like a father with two sons. And I think we're wrapped up in that when we watch a good movie, and we cry and laugh and we're scared. Those are all because a beautiful story did something to us. It took us on some sort of emotional field trip.   And then third is a mental field trip, which we're talking about here by asking questions. Jesus asked a ton of questions. And as a result of that, got people thinking in new ways. Now, if the way, the truth and the life, if anyone had the right to just give answers, it would be Jesus. But instead, he chose to ask a lot of questions. And so those three field trips, literal by going on walks, getting outside of a classroom, the mental field trip of asking questions and the emotional field trips of telling stories. Jesus did that all the time. Once you know that and you read the gospels, you'll see it everywhere.   The problem is, as you were referring to, Laura, on Sunday mornings, what do we do? We sit people in a church in pews. Almost all of the teaching or formation happens in the same room. Instead of telling stories, we give abstract information. And instead of asking questions, we just give answers. And then we sit around and wonder, "Why is no one changing?" And my gentle encouragement is, what would it look like if we actually learned to teach others the way Jesus actually taught? Imagine that. So, it's a bit of a stretch because culturally we're kind of drawn in to the way we've always done it in church. And yet oftentimes Jesus did almost the opposite of the way in which we teach today.   Laura Dugger: (18:44 - 18:55) And so, if you see that as an opposite, do you have any practical ideas of just a small tweak that we could make on Sunday mornings to be more like Jesus?   J.R. Briggs: (18:56 - 20:32) Sure. I always try to say, is there any way I can get people's bodies or their hearts up out of the seat? So, "Hey, I want you to stand up and turn to the person next to you." Or, "Hey, we're going to move around the room." Some of you say, "What? We would never do that at our church." And I would say, take a risk. Jesus did all sorts of things that surprise people. So, how can I get their hearts and their bodies up out of their seat? Number one.   Number two, can I tell a few more stories than I have in the past in my teaching or preaching or Sunday morning? And then also, can I engage with questions by asking them questions at the beginning? Can I leave them with some reflection questions in the bulletin or on the website the next week? Or can I actually have them asking questions of each other or of the text itself? And so oftentimes, why do I feel like I'm the one that has to speak the whole time when I'm preaching? What if instead I allow them to ask questions of each other, of God, and even of myself? And sometimes when I preach, I allow the last five or 10 minutes for people to ask questions about the text to myself and everyone else. Now, is that a change? Yeah. Would that freak out some churches? Maybe. But it can be a way that people walk away and say, "Wow, I learned, I was engaged, I was formed, and I encountered God in a new way that I haven't in the past." Which is the whole goal, that we don't just learn more about the Bible, is that we know the God of the Bible. That's the whole point of why we gather together as a church.   Laura Dugger: (20:33 - 20:46) And that would be so memorable. But also, as you're speaking about stories, are you willing to share the story of one of the times that you asked a question, and it turned out better than you could have ever asked or hoped for?   J.R. Briggs: (20:47 - 22:27) Yeah. I could think of several, but sometimes just asking people, "Why is that?" Just as a follow-up. It's amazing what can spill out. And I go, "Oh, that confronted my biases. That confronted my assumptions and what I thought about them." And so sometimes just asking some of that has been incredibly helpful to just ask that follow-up question.   I won't tell the whole story that I recounted in the book, but oftentimes when there are tears, it was Charles Spurgeon that said that tears are like liquid prayers. And so, when people are showing some emotion, I sometimes will say to them, even if they're not a follower of Jesus, even if they're not religious, "I'm curious. It's been said that tears are liquid prayers. Can you put words to the prayers that your face is praying right now?" And I've had some of the most unbelievable conversations where people can identify the prayers that their face is praying. And even in my own life, where I just step back and go, "Why am I, why was I so moved by that novel? Why was I so moved by that movie? Or what just happened in front of me? Or why, where are these tears coming from?" As Frederick Buechner said, we'd be best to pay attention to our tears. And so that question of what are the liquid prayers, can I put words to the prayer that my face is praying has been an unbelievably meaningful and eye-opening thing for me and also with people that I've been with.   Laura Dugger: (22:29 - 22:37) Will you also share about how you arrived at asking two questions that have opened numerous doors for you?   J.R. Briggs: (22:38 - 25:21) Yeah. Yeah. When I was in college, I had the privilege of studying in Israel for the semester. This is fall of my junior year. Absolutely loved it. And our class was on a four-day field trip up around the Sea of Galilee. One night I was down by the lake and happened to notice as the sun was about to set that there was a big fishing vessel that had just come in. And I had always wanted to go fishing on the Sea of Galilee, not just take a boat, not just see fishermen, but like be on the boat and fish with fishermen. I don't even love fishing myself, but I just wanted to experience what Jesus and his disciples experienced on the lake.   And there was a big industrial ship that came in. They brought in their day's catch. And I thought, "Oh, I should ask them if I can go fishing with them." And Laura, and then, you know, the realistic brain in me said, "Why would they ever allow a college, American college student and a study abroad program to go fishing with them tomorrow?" And I had these two questions that hit me, Laura. "Well, what's the worst they could say? No, or heck no, or get out of here. You're crazy." And number two, "Can I handle that? If they were to say that." Those two questions, I thought, "You know, I can handle it now. Let me ask what's the worst he could say. Let me ask."   So, I went up and I said, "Excuse me, can I talk to your captain?" And they said, "Menachem is over here." So, I introduced myself to him and I said, "Menachem, I've always wanted to go fishing on the Sea of Galilee. I'll pay you $50. If I can go fishing for the day, use me as, as I mean, any work me to death. If you want, like I'm here, I just want to." And he looked at me, he said, "I don't want your money." He said, "Join me tomorrow morning at 6 a.m. And you can come fishing with us." And I walked away and went, "Unbelievable. My dream is coming true." And I had an unbelievable day, but I realized I can't say no for someone else. What's the worst they could say? No. Can I just ask and handle it if they said no? Yep, I can handle it. Those two questions, Laura, have shaped me immensely throughout my lifetime. I've really, I've done that in a lot of different ways. And a lot of times people say no, and I can handle that. But a lot of times people said yes. And some doors have opened simply because I asked. And I actually think of that verse often, Laura, where it says you do not have because you do not ask. It's not name it and claim it prosperity gospel. But we just have to realize that sometimes we just need to ask to put ourselves out there and see what people say.   Laura Dugger: (25:23 - 25:55) That is so good. And I have applied those questions since reading that in your book, even as I reach out to ask you if you would do two recordings. So, I'm so grateful that that you said yes, I'm delighted that today's not our only conversation. But I'm curious also, J.R., when you had that experience, a lot of us may not ever get to go fish on the Sea of Galilee. So, did you learn anything that brought the Bible to life or anything about Jesus or anything that you can share with us from that incredible experience?   J.R. Briggs: (25:55 - 27:37) Oh, there's so many, but I'll limit it to one. When we started out that morning, the sea was so calm. I mean, it was like glass. It was beautiful. The sun was rising, not a cloud in the sky. And it was great. But I've always wondered these like storms. You know, the Sea of Galilee is not a sea. It's a lake. It's 10 miles by six miles. It looks like a harp. And that's why it's called Lake Kinneret. In Hebrew, that means harp. So, it's harp lake is the way that we could call it. But I thought it's still a lake. How can there be storms that would have professional fishermen that would be screaming, thinking they were going to die? How is that possible?   Well, wouldn't you know it, Laura? As beautiful as it was, the clouds rolled in. And then later that afternoon, there was a squall of a storm. I have never been in more intense in my life. And it happened right there. Now we're in a maybe two-ton, three-ton fishing vessel. But even that, we had to go below deck because it was so brutal. The waves, the wind, we couldn't see more than 10 feet in front of us. And I thought, "Ah, now I get it. If I'm just in a wooden boat with my fellow, you know, disciples here, I can see why this could get a little panicky." And that was, I think, a little God wink for me to be able to experience both the peace and calm, but also this treacherous storm and go, "Ah, now I won't read my Bible the same again when I hear about the, you know, the disciples freaking out with the storm or seeing Jesus walk on the water approaching them." So, that's one of many, but that sticks out to me a great deal that I got to experience a very intense storm.   Laura Dugger: (27:38 - 28:27) That is so incredible. Even just going back, so those two questions that you were willing to ask led to this incredible experience. And now people from around the world get to benefit from the lessons that you learned at that time. So, I think you're giving us so much encouragement for asking questions.   Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   What happens to our brain or within our brain when we're asking or being asked a question?   J.R. Briggs: (28:28 - 30:19) Yeah, this was an incredibly fun part of the research for me was what does this do neurobiologically to us? And so, what neurologists have found is when they put nodes all over your brain to kind of see how the brain activity happens, when you're given information, your brain lights up. But what they found is when someone is asked a question, your brain explodes like fireworks, the synapses that are firing, and it just lights up like crazy, like fireworks in the night. And one of the things they said, as much as we think we can multitask, we can't. We do a lot of switching, task switching, but not multitasking. But they said what happens is they use the word hijack. You can hijack someone's brain when you actually are asking a question of someone, even if it's for two seconds.   And so, if I were to ask your listeners, Laura, "What are the color of the shoes you're wearing right now?" Whether your listeners liked it or not, I just hijacked their brain for a split second there, and they went, "What are the color of my shoes?" And so that's immense amount of power to, quote unquote, hijack someone's brain. So, we need to use that power wisely. But it's an immense amount of power that we can have when we ask someone a question, not just give them an answer, which I love when current neurobiological research matches up with scripture and with the way Jesus taught. How did Jesus teach? A ton of questions. What happened? He engaged with people. They participated with him. They were forced to learn and be participants, not just talking theoretically about faith. And I thought, isn't that just like Jesus? He knew how our brains are wired. And so, he uses questions as a way of maximum connection, challenge, engagement, and formation.   Laura Dugger: (30:20 - 30:43) Wow. And you've cultivated, like you say, this holy curiosity. So, I am curious for you, J.R., when you're in a conversation and you find yourself asking question after question, have you been in a situation like this where they don't reciprocate, they don't ask any questions back? And how do you handle that internally and externally?   J.R. Briggs: (30:44 - 32:41) Yeah, it's hard because we live in a culture that hasn't modeled that well to ask good questions. And sometimes it's been hard. And I admit that sometimes there's a sense of loneliness. When I have a lunch meeting and my wife will say, "How was your lunch meeting today?" We have a code word where I say either waiter or waitress. And it means the waiter or waitress came and took my plate away because I was done with my meal before they had taken one or two bites of their food. And oftentimes that happens where we leave a meal and we realize, "I don't think I was asked a single question this whole lunch." Or we go to a dinner party, no one asked me a single question. And that can be really hard.   And I love asking people questions. And it's not like I'm just ramming it down their throats to ask question after question like Elf with his brother walking through Central Park where he's just rattling off question after question. I was giving pause, I was taking a bite of my food, allowing them to ask a question or two, and they never did. And sometimes people say, "Well, I don't really know, I'm not good at questions." And I say, one of the simplest things you can do is what I call the way question, W-A-Y. It's just to say, "What about you?" I've been talking. What about you? To just hit the ball back over the net and to allow us to engage in some conversational pickleball. It's been on my side, let me hit it. Now it's on your side and you hit it back. That's how all healthy relationships exist. And so, it's been a little disappointing at times to realize you can go, and I'm sure you and others have experienced that. That's really hard. And to have people that can just say, "What about you? What do you think? Have you ever experienced that?" Or "I have another question for you." That's how healthy relationships are cultivated when there's that back and forth in conversation.   Laura Dugger: (32:42 - 32:51) Okay. And so, if we want to cultivate that back-and-forth conversation, can you just share a few more tips for ways that we can level up our questions?   J.R. Briggs: (32:52 - 34:24) Sure. Yeah. There's a unique, almost universal principle when it comes to question asking. If you ask a generic unthoughtful question, you will almost always get a generic unthoughtful answer. "How are you?" "Fine." "How's your weekend?" "Good." But if you ask a thoughtful, specific, engaging question, you almost always get a thoughtful, specific, engaging answer. It's as predictable as a communist election. It's amazing how that works, where we can just, if we can just level up.   So, if a lazy question would be, "How was your weekend?" I encourage people to say, what would 10 or 15 percent of a more thoughtful, specific, or focused question be? So, you could say, "Of your whole weekend, how would you describe your weekend in two or three adjectives?" That's a little bit different than just, "How was your weekend?" Or, "Hey, how are you doing?" That's good. You might say, "What has been the most interesting thing about your day so far?" It just takes a little bit more intentionality. When you ask it that way, you won't get the fine, good. You'll get the, you know, "I had a really interesting sales meeting today at 10 a.m. You know, I bumped into my neighbor, and we had the best conversation at the mailbox." Those are the kinds of answers you get because we ask the more specific, thoughtful question. We'll get more specific and thoughtful answers. So, that's what I encourage people to do. Just level up to be just a little bit more pointed by 10 or 15 percent and see what happens.   Laura Dugger: (34:26 - 34:40) Okay. So, hopefully we're all going to put this into practice. But then also, if we have children in our home, what can we do to be teaching them this same goal of reciprocity and asking great questions?   J.R. Briggs: (34:40 - 37:02) Yes. I'm so glad you brought this up, Laura. There's so much that we can do. I try to do this. We try to do this with our kids when they were younger. Our kids are 19 and 16 now and we still engage in good questions with them. But when they were little, we would do things. I would crawl into bed with each of them at bedtime and we would do question of the night. And so, I would say, "You get to ask dad any question you want and then I get to ask you any question that you want." And so, age appropriate, you know, what's your favorite ice cream color or ice cream flavor or your favorite color? But sometimes they would pull out some really fascinating ones. Like one time, my youngest son said, "Dad, what does God smell like?" And it just made me laugh. I just thought, what a great question from a five- or six-year-old about that. And so just being intentional there at bedtime has been really good.   Car time is really important. And I really try to see if I can ask some questions that I can't ask in other places because now I've got their full attention. We're in the car together. And even as my sons are now older, when they're in the car together, something about staring out the windshield together to be able to talk through some things has been really good. It could be about school, could be about life, could be something trivial, but to know that this is a place where we can talk. And so, car time, bedtime, and the last one I'll give is dinner time. We have a big chalk wall next to our dining room table. And we'll just randomly put up questions, thoughtful questions. And then we'll sometimes say after prayer, "Okay, boys, when they were little, you know, you each get to pick one question off the wall that we talk about tonight." And it just became a real easy way. And you can make up one if you want, or there are questions here. We also found a deck of cards that actually had questions on each one. It was like a questions deck. And so, we'll say, "Great, like you can pick off the wall, you can make up your own, or just pick a question that's in the deck." And just doing that where everybody got a chance to share around the table became such a way, such a rich conversation but a way to remind them questions are okay, encouraged, and a wonderful part of being a part of a family.   Laura Dugger: (37:03 - 37:32) Those are such great ideas. I love that and that we can implement some of that right away. But as we're starting to wind our time down together, I would love to hear one more story about a time that a question dramatically changed the outcome of a friendly gathering that you write about on the back patio of a Capitol Hill home in Washington, D.C. Yeah, I remember reading this story, Laura, and I was so moved.   J.R. Briggs: (37:32 - 39:52) I was moved to tears that I ran over to my wife and I said, "Listen to this story." And we both just sat there crying. Yeah, these families were on the back porch on a wonderful summer evening enjoying some stuff on the grill. And all of a sudden a gunman came up behind one of the teenage girls and held a gun to her head and said, "Nobody move, give me your money or I'm going to shoot." Everyone froze, rightfully so, the terror that they experienced. And one woman just blurted out the first thing that came to her mind. She said, "Why don't you sit down and have some wine with us?" Which is not something that has ever come to my mind if someone were to walk in and rob me. And sure enough, he put his gun in his belt and sat down and had some wine. And he said, "Boy, this is really good wine." And I said, "Why don't you enjoy some more to eat?" And then afterwards, she said, "Can I give you a hug?" And the guy was totally startled. Yeah. And then afterwards, everyone else decided to give him a hug. And as they enjoyed food, you know, they're all tense and not sure what to do or what's going on. At the end, he said, "Can I have a group hug together?" And then he slipped out the back and even the glass, the wine glass that he had, it wasn't even broken. He just set it up right behind the back gate.   And I just was so moved by that. Like, "Do you want a glass of wine? Do you want a hug?" Not things that would come to my mind, but it was so jolting and surprising. I think it humanized him. And before he left, the robber said, "I think I've come to rob the wrong house tonight." It's amazing what a question can do. That was a question of immense hospitality. You're welcome here. That's the last thing that this robber ever expected. So, I just love that story. I love that story because it reminds us once again how powerful questions actually are.   Laura Dugger: (39:53 - 40:09) And I think it illustrates at the heart of questions is love. And that motivates so much of the work that you get to do, J.R. So, can you just share a little bit more about the work you do get to do and share how we can be connected after this conversation?   J.R. Briggs: (40:10 - 41:07) Sure. Yeah. I've been a pastor for 15 years, but in 2011, I started what's called Kairos Partnerships. And it was passionate about leaders because leadership can be lonely, overwhelming, and sometimes leaders feel ill-equipped. And so actually our organization was started based on three questions. Who pastors the pastor? Who leads the leader? Who shepherds the shepherd? So, we work with some pastors, but we work with all sorts of entrepreneurs and businesspeople and Chick-fil-A operators and college presidents and division one men's basketball coaches, anyone who's following Jesus, but leading others. And so, we do that through coaching, through consulting, through writing, speaking, spiritual direction. And so, our team, I have a wonderful team, and the team really walks alongside of leaders who are wanting to be equipped so they can lead with clarity and confidence moving forward.   Laura Dugger: (41:08 - 41:27) I love that. Well, we will put a link to your website and the show notes for today's episode, but J.R., you may be familiar. We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   J.R. Briggs: (41:28 - 42:03) One of the prayers that I pray regularly is, "Lord, would you grant me wisdom, courage, and compassion?" And all three of those are important because if I have wisdom and courage, but no compassion, I'm careless. If I have wisdom and compassion, but no courage, I'm riskless. And if I have compassion and courage, but no wisdom, that can be reckless. But if I have wisdom, courage, and compassion together, that's priceless. And so, I just try to pray that regularly because I say, "Lord, I want to be a wise, compassionate, courageous person for you." And I would encourage your listeners to pray that prayer for wisdom, courage, and compassion as well.   Laura Dugger: (42:05 - 42:20) Those are great words that I would use to describe you, J.R. And you are humble and warm and engaging. And I have greatly appreciated your book. I've already told people it's my favorite book that I've read in recent history.   J.R. Briggs: (42:20 - 42:22) So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (42:22 - 42:31) Well, thank you. That's very kind of you. Yes, very easy to compliment it. But thank you for being my guest, and I look forward to hosting you again next time.   J.R. Briggs: (42:31 - 42:33) Sounds great. Looking forward to that as well.   Laura Dugger: (42:35 - 45:49) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Un collègue d'espace de coworking de 21 ans m'a récemment un peu remis les idées en place.En discutant avec lui, j'ai réalisé à quel point nous — les entrepreneurs un peu plus seniors

In a bonus #amwriting podcast episode, host Jennie Nash talks with academic writing coach Kathy Mazak of Scholar's Voice (and host of Academic Writing Amplified) about how writers keep going after completing a blueprint and finish what they start. Mazak explains her mission-based work helping academics—especially women and non-binary scholars—publish their research by aligning time management and writing with an academic mission statement. She argues that big blocks of time are unrealistic and that one to two hours once or twice a week can be enough if protected and supported by project management systems. They discuss common obstacles like not honoring writing time, fear of disappointing oneself, and harsh peer review, and emphasize mindset work as at least half the solution. Mazak describes managing multiple projects by focusing on a top three, letting others “sleep,” and “killing” stalled “zombie projects,” plus recognizing stage transitions and solving the right problem at the right level. She shares details on her 12-week Navigate program (scholarsvoice.org/navigate) and why members stay for years.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Learn more at http://scholarsvoice.org/.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey everyone, it's Jennie, and I'm here with a bonus episode of the podcast because a lot of our community has been working on their blueprints this summer to begin a new project, find momentum for one that's gotten derailed, or to work on a revision.And obviously stopping to think before you write is critical, but then the question is, what next? And how, how do we keep going? How do we finish what we started? And I invited my friend Kathy Mazak to join me today to have a conversation about this and to get her insights on this topic. Kathy, we're in a business mastermind together.That's how we met, [00:01:00] and we, um, immediately connected because Kathy runs a company called Scholar's Voice, which you can find at scholarsvoice.com. She has an incredible strategic mind, and her work focuses on helping tenured professors get their research and writing out of the endless backlog and actually submitted and published.So it's a different kind of writing than we normally talk about on the podcast, but I know we have a lot of a- academics in our audience, um, who are trying to write nonfiction or fiction or memoir, but also probably trying to publish the papers that are sitting on their desk. And Kathy helps so many people do that work and do it well, and she has really Amazing systems for doing that.And so she's gonna talk a little bit about her program and what she offers at the end, um, or maybe at the beginning too. But, [00:02:00] um, welcome Cathy.Cathy: Yay. Thank you so much for having me. So I know that we met in the business mastermind, but I've been following you for many years before that, and been listening to this podcast, and been subscribed to this podcast for, like, at least since 2019 when I started to, like, look at other writing podcasts.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: And so it is ... It actually has been, like, a dream of mine to be on this podcast, so it's, like, so- Look at us ... great that we're doing this here today. Yes.Jennie: I completely forgot to say that you have a podcast as well. What is, what is the name of that?Cathy: Yeah. The podcast is called Academic Writing Amplified.It has, like, we're headed towards 350 episodes all about, like, getting your, uh, academic papers out there in the world when you're a busy professor. So yeah.Jennie: One of the things that I most like about your business is the way you describe it as it's really mission based. Yeah. It's, it's [00:03:00] really about helping academics take control of the narrative.Yeah. Right? Do you- Yeah ... do, will you tell us about that, ‘cause I love that.Cathy: Yeah. So for me, right, like, as a writing coach, so I was a full professor, like I went through, I have a PhD. I, I, I got my tenure track job. I went all the way through all the ranks, um, before I left and started this, uh, academic adjacent business.But I do it because, like, my big, like, mission is that the more, especially women and non-binary academics who get their papers out in the world, like, the more those voices are changing fields, and influencing research, and influencing thinking. And I just think, like, that is just so important. That's why the business is called Scholar's Voice, ‘cause it's about getting more diverse, typically marginalized voices out in these research spaces.Um, so [00:04:00] to me that's my mission, and when I have ... You know, when, when scholars come and do my program they write an academic mission statement, and really their whole time management, um, and writing project management, and sustainable writing practice is designed to, like, support that academic mission. So it's a very mission based, uh, business for me.But it's also, like, a, like my clients, like w- who take my programs are also, like, putting their academic missions, like, right at the center of their work. Which also puts writing at the center. Because to me, like, the writing is absolutely, is, is, like, the path to creating this better career, this focus on writing.Jennie: Well, and an academic has courses to teach and committees to go to, meetings to go to, and, you know, so many other demands on their time. And somebody trying to write a book has- Yep ... not [00:05:00] exactly those things, but probably a day job, and kids, and, you know, aging parents they have to care for, and the dog, and the car, and, you know, it's, it's writing in, in the real world.Mm-hmm. And the way you set your program up is you've honed this over so many years, i- and it's designed to, to help people actually get the work done. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit about how you structure that program? ‘Cause I think it'll be instructive to helping folks. Like, okay, here, you've finished your blueprint, now what?So- Yeah ... how do you, how do you get people to do it?Cathy: Yeah, yeah. So the first part is that I think that many people, when they think about writers, right, like if they just imagine themselves as a writer, they think that the ideal is, oh, I have like eight hours a day to dedicate to writing, or all my life, or whatever, you know, dreamy scenario we have in our minds.And I [00:06:00] think, like, for academics, i- the, the... it's like, oh, I need to be on a sabbatical, or I need to not be teaching. I need to... I cannot be doing any other thing. Um, or I can be doing other things, but I need like these big blocks of time to write. And the problem is, like you're saying, like writing in real life, like that just doesn't happen.And then when it might happen for academics is over the holiday breaks, like the semester breaks or the summer, but that also isn't true because you're also like, you know, being a mom and, and th- you know, doing things with your family, and managing your house, and maybe your aging parents, and whatever else.Like there's never a time where there's like nothing going on. So we have to stop thinking that that's the ideal and rather think, like what I tell my people, and they- Fight me on this, but at the beginning. But I tell them, actually one to two hours once or twice a [00:07:00] week is enough.Jennie: Ah. AndOutro: they'll be like, “No,Cathy: no,Outro: no,Cathy: IOutro: need-” Say that again.Cathy: Yeah, no. Say that again. One to two hours once or twice a week is enough, ‘cause remember, like, the low end of that means one hour a week, and the high end of that is four hours a week. And so a lot of times people come in and, and I'm, you know, for your, for the audience here, like, think about are you doing one hour a week consistently?Are you doing two hours a week consistently? If you're not, then let's just, like, back up and go there instead of thinking like, “Oh no, I need these big blocks of time that I can never actually get and hold.” ‘Cause that's the other thing, it's so hard to hold a big block. Um, like a four-hour block is hard to o- to hold.Uh, and alsoOutro: hard- Oh my gosh, four hours? ... to maintain your energy through.Cathy: No, no, people- What? No ... people haveOutro: all kinds of ideas.Cathy: And I'm like, and, and the other thing too I think is related to this idea, like for my people, right, that the work day is, like, this eight-hour day. [00:08:00] Like, but you can't ... I'm thinking you're not knowledge work for eight hours a day.Like, your brain can't do that, you know? So we really have to start, just, like, dial it back and start with, like, can I get consistency? Consistency doesn't have to mean every day. Could I get consistent with one or two hours once or twice, or twice a week, and actually do writing during that time so I have project management skills that mean when I sit down I know what to work on, and see how that works?Because guess what? If you did that, you would be ... Like, everything would be moving towards publication, and there would be many more words on the page.Jennie: Well, I love that so much because one of the things that I find is- Well, with writing or business or anything is I'll say, “Oh, I'm working so hard, and I'm so busy on it, and I'm spending all this time on it,” but really what I'm doing is sitting down at my desk and- Yeahrearranging, you know, [00:09:00] the folders on my desktop again. Or- Yeah ... um, you know, oh, I'll just go take a little peek over on Instagram, uh, to transition from... You know, like, it's just- Yeah ... I waste so much time. And-Cathy: Yeah ...Jennie: the- it's- if the, if the idea is, “Well, I got one to two hours, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that time.”Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's why you have a blueprint, right? Like, this is why you do the blueprint because every time you sit down, you are faced with either the blinking cursor, right, the blank page, or you're faced even before that with maybe, like, what do I wanna work on? And so for academics, we're always working on more than one project at once.We always have, like, most academ- some academics are book writers. Many academics are... Almost all academics are article writers, and so you always have... Like, you never just, like, start the research for an article and [00:10:00] then just only do that until it's submitted and out in the world. You always have things at these different stages, like I call it your publication pipeline, but, like, you have things that are in the idea stage, in the data collection stage, in the analysis stage, the writing up stage, things that are submitted, you're waiting to get editorial feedback on them.All of that is happening all the time. So you, when you sit down, you're making a choice between all of these possible projects, unless you have a great project management system, you know? Or unless you have a roadmap that says like, “Okay, well, here's my roadmap. Let me... You're my blueprint. Like, let me sit down and start here.”You know? You ha- you need to have that place to start, or you'll just wheel spin with those, uh, one or two hours once or t- once or twice a week.Jennie: So I'm curious about what other objections people bring to your method. You said the first- Mm-hmm ... objection was, “Well, I, I need these giant blocks of time.” Yeah.What are some of the other objections that you hear to it?Cathy: Yeah. I think a lot of them, and [00:11:00] I think this is so common in, in writers of all kinds, is like, “I'm, I'm gonna let myself down.” Like, the, the, the biggest kind of mental thing is like, “Oh, I've tried it. I've tried to hold that time before, but I've never been successful at it, so if I keep trying, I'll just keep disappointing myself.”Um, whereas, like, the more structures and systems you put into place, the better those things can hold up those one to two hours once or twice a week, and then potentially grow them even. But you have to have, like, it, it can't be just I put it on my calendar- Because there has to be, the mindset has to be in the right place.You have to be honoring that time. Like, you- finding the time on your calendar is problem one for sure, like, because people are booked up. But the second part of that problem is I found it, I [00:12:00] put it there, and then when a student tried to make an appointment with me and they just couldn't possibly find any other time, I put them right on top of my writing.Or what many of the other possible scenarios where you would just schedule over what you had held for writing, and I think that's a That's a situation that's common among everybody with a life, right? Like, “Oh, the plumber said they could come during that time, and here I am just writing.” Just writing. You know, like, that's the first thing that has to change.Like, you have to f- to honor that writing time just like you would honor that really hard to get dermatologist appointment.Outro: That's what it needs to be. That's the level of honoring that we're, that we're talking about.Jennie: I'm laughing- Am I- ... ‘cause I'm looking, I, like, literally have been thinking whilst on this, we're looking at video while we're recording this at how beautiful your skin is, so it's hilarious that you mention that.I'm like, “Oh, wait. Maybe I need to be centering the dermatologist more.” [00:13:00]Cathy: Listen, I don't have a dermatologist appointment. If I did, I would, I would hold that. The one that really resonates for me, and maybe with some other moms of, like, kids, like, school-aged kids, is the freaking dentist. Like, I can't get a freaking kid's dentist appointment.Like, I call and they're like, “Yeah, we're just all booked up.” I'm like, “How is this possible?” You know, and so if there's a dentist appointment, I hold on to that. That's the kind of tenacity we want around the honoring the writing appointments.Jennie: So I wanna stick with this concept a little bit more, because I, I actually was writing about this for the Write Big, uh- Mmbook that I'm working on. Mm. And this idea that the reward of writing is way down the road. It- Mm. We don't really have any evidence that it's gonna actually pay off. Yeah. And I think that that tends to be the reason why it's so easy to say, “Well, this doesn't really matter,” or, [00:14:00] “I c- shouldn't really commit to this,” or, “I shouldn't go all in on this.”And some of that pressure comes from our own selves, as you mentioned. Yeah. But a lot of it comes from the people who love us, who are in our homes even, or, you know- Yeah ... the pressure, like, if you're trying to protect that hour or that four hours in your week and it's, you know, “Well, can you do this errand?”Or, “This kid got sick,” or this. To be, to say, “Well, no, that's my writing time”-Cathy: Yeah ...Jennie: it, it's like, well, what evidence do you have that that's worth anything? Yeah. Right? Is ... Do you find that with academics too?Cathy: Uh, I think that, yes, 100%, um, because the payoff is really far away. Um, but even, like, I would argue that another thing happening in people's heads is that the payoff might be somebody read it and hated it.[00:15:00]Like, so you're also avoiding it because- You know, like the end result might be that you, like turn it into your book coach, and the book coach says you have to redo it all. Right. You know? Or like- You missedJennie: the mark. Right ...Cathy: you missed the mark. Exactly. And so, but like we just don't think of that, or so that fear of that we're gonna do this work, we're gonna hold our writing time, which feels very selfish and feels like who do you think you are that you're gonna hold time for your writing, you know?Like, who are you, Ernest Hemingway? Like, like, you know what I mean? Like we, we have these thoughts in our head, and then we, and then, um, the, the great payoff of all of that hard work of holding the time and actually doing the writing might be, in the case of my people, like that some real A-hole reviewer tears you apart.And-Jennie: Because your- Yeah ... people have to have peer reviews- That's right ... for everything, right?Cathy: For [00:16:00] everything. Even books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everything is peer reviewed, and I mean, I was just coaching somebody yesterday on like why are, why we have, I call it like submission friction. Like I talk about all these different points in the writing process, and how- Every point, there's like, there's friction to move the work from one kind of thing to another kind of thing.So there, like when you go from draft to like submitted article, y- it's becoming something different, and your job and your relationship to the, that piece of writing is different between when you've drafted it and when you've submitted it to a journal. Um, there's lots of other transition points, but I was coaching somebody yesterday who was like, “Yeah, I got all this really bad feedback,” like really badly worded feedback, right?Like, it wasn't just critical, it was also delivered poorly because peer review in academia is blind, so you don't know who read it, and so people say all kinds of things [00:17:00] without you, you know, without fear that you're g- they're gonna see you at a conference. So you know, supposedly they don't know who you are, you don't know who they are.And it can be like really horrible, and this, this client, she was like, “I just can't... I have trouble, I'm having trouble submitting anything from that study because that person's words are in my head.” Oh. So like, so we also have like for the great effort of holding the writing time and doing, we might get these terrible things that like stop us in our tracks, and then we have to like coach our own minds through like, okay, why is it true that submitting again won't necessarily have those same results, you know, and whatever else you need to, you know...Like I work with my clients on different things they can think to get over that friction of submitting and that fear. But, but yeah, like sometimes there's a payoff, and sometimes the payoff is like, “Congratulations, we're g- people are really mean.”Jennie: [00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah,Cathy: yeah. Yeah,Jennie: so how much time do you spend in your program, would you say, on You know, so there's the tactics and the- Mm-hmmsetting up the systems- Yeah ... versus mindset. Yeah. Like, what's the balance?Cathy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my program is set up so that you do the program in 12 weeks, and guess how long it takes to do the program every week? One to two hours. And you do it once or twice a week. So, like, if you take the program, it forces you to hold, like, an hour to do the material and an hour for a live call.So the live call is where we're really getting into the coaching stuff. Like, I, you know, there's only so much coaching you can do on, like, a prerecorded lesson, right? But we do talk about mindset, um, throughout the whole thing. But on the coaching calls is really when we talk about mindset and, and get to figure out, like, [00:19:00] is the problem that you're having actually a strategy problem, or are you having a mindset problem?Is it, like, something that's happening, or is it the way you're thinking about what's happening? So I would say it's, like, a half and half, um, kind of breakdown between strategies and, um, techniques and, like, here's processes, and let's get your mind right.Jennie: Well, I mean, that's, to me, a, a giant revelation. I, I believe that mindset is at least 50% as well.Yeah, yeah. And I think most writers don't have any idea that, how important mindset is. And the program you and I are in together, the business mastermind that we're in together, is hugely mindset focused, and it- Yeah ... it's hard to show up with your mindset stuff. It's embarrassing. Mm. Mm. And, you know, it's hard to get coaching on it, at least for me anyway, because it's, oftentimes it's like, “You're saying the same thing in a different way.[00:20:00] Like, that's just the same story, different words,” you know? You really have to confront the narratives that you have in your head, and where they came from, and what they're serving, and that's work too, right? Yeah,Cathy: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,Jennie: absolutely. And I mean, that's, to me, the thing that I've, I've really learned, and your program honors that idea by half the time that people are spending is the, the mindset.Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and then we also... Like, the program is designed so that you take it once, and then you can keep taking additional rounds of the program. The content of the program doesn't change, but you continue to have these mi- these, these coaching calls, right? Where we talk about, there's kind of two part- like, two themes of the coaching calls.Like, one theme is like, oh, now I- my whole calendar is really mission aligned, and I'm holding my writing time and whatever. And then what is the series of problems that happens after that, [00:21:00] right? Like, what's the next level? Like, now that we've solved these things, ‘cause there's never no, there's never no problems.Like, like, the next set of problems, uh, presents itself. Um, so we coach on those things. But also, like, I've just been, especially this, in this next group, I've told people, like, I'm like, “We're gonna do more mindset than ever.” Like, we're just gonna really coach your brains on, um, you know, on perfectionism, on procrastination, on transition friction, on zombie projects, on like, um-Jennie: What's a zombie project?Cathy: Ooh, those are those things that are like, they're not going anywhere. They're dead, but you're holding onto them in your mind, like someday I'm gonna get back to that. And it is not healthy to do that. So we, I, when I talk about, like, um, how to manage multiple projects at once, like so think multiple articles that you're writing at once, people [00:22:00] have...Like, academics have, I don't know, like 10, 20 articles that they have, like that they're holding in their mind as like these are possible articles that I could work on or these are projects that... I call them projects in play, right? Well, a lot of times like five of those are like, “Oh, this is a project I started.There might be words on the page, but it stalled out.” We needed to do a reanalysis, and we didn't n- and, and it was gonna be a lot of work to go back and do that, so it's just kind of like alive but dead, right? Like a zombie. Yeah. So I tell people, and again, they fight me on this, like I'm like, “You need to kill them.”Like you need... Zombie projects aren't for resuscitating. They are for blessing and releasing. They are for like this is done. This is not going to... Because they're in the way of all of the other living projects. So I talk about the projects as like we have a top three that are kind of, that we're maybe rotating between or [00:23:00] that like once we, we, we submit something from the top three we can like promote something else, and then everybody else is sleeping.You know? Just tell them they need to take a nap. And then the zombie projects we're just, we kill them. You can, if you must, have a folder on your computer and put them there, but you need to get them out of like your working mind. They shouldn't be in your pipeline. They should be like they... Because we can only hold so many things, and we can only manage so many projects at once, so we have to create systems and processes to make it feel like we're only working on one thing at a timeJennie: Well, I think this idea, which I adore now that I know what it is-um, applies to book writers as well. Everybody has more than one book idea, and they have the book idea that they wanna write after the book that they're working on, or they started three at a time or s- you know, oftentimes there's a thing that happens, I think it happens about two-thirds of the way through a [00:24:00] book- Hmmwhere suddenly you have a great idea for another book that is shinier and prettier and brighter and better- Yes ... than the one you're working on.Outro: Yep.Jennie: And so this idea, I think, really applies to book writers, and most of us who are writing and sharing anything are also writing other content like- Yes. YesSubstack and, um, or a newsletter or a podcast or whatever th- whatever the content that we're working on is. So do you think that this idea of the zombie project- Mm-hmm ... or folder can apply there as well?Cathy: For sure, because here's the thing, right? The shiny object syndrome is really real be- and it, and it relates actually to the submission friction that I was talking about.Like, I did a call about that just yesterday. Like, it relates because- Before your project is done, right, before it's submitted, before it's turned in, whatever, [00:25:00] it has the potential to be the very most amazing, best book that has ever been written by anyone. And as long as I don't submit it, it is holding that potential.Jennie: Yes. Okay.Cathy: And so once the, so the more, but the more done the book gets, the less po- Like, almost like the less that po- the, the more that potential is kind of decreasing because it, it's not that it's not great, maybe it is that book, but like the potential of what it could become when it actually has become something is less, right, than the new shiny idea because the new shiny idea then has like all of this potential.So, so I think that's the, the newness of something like is, i- is very attractive, and it has so much to do with like our brains trying to avoid the hard work of the finishing and trying to... Like, [00:26:00] w- when something is new, you don't know what the writing problems are yet. Yeah. But what, what's existing, you have a lot of problems to solve.There's a ton of decisions to make.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: And, um, and, and that, that feels hard and heavy.Jennie: So for our listeners who are finishing up their blueprints, they're coming across one of those friction points you talked about, where you're going from planning your book, thinking about it, solving some problems, to you're going back to writing ‘cause the- Yeahblueprint is a kind of a pause. Not kind of, it's a pause, and now you're going back to the writing, and that s- transition is something a lot of writers don't acknowledge- that it's a different thing. So that idea- Right ... you were talking about of, um, when your academic writers are shifting from, you know, one thing to another.They have a lot more shifts in a lot [00:27:00] more compressed period of time. But writers absolutely go through this, and then when they, when they call it done and get it to beta readers, and then they get it back and get it to, you know, going to pitch, those are all transition points. So a lot of our listeners are at one of those right now.Yeah. What is, what is the mindset work to, that you guide people for shifting from one, um, process to another?Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So your job changes. Like, that's the, that, that's the, you know ... Like, the job of, like, when you're doing the blueprint, right? It's a planning, it's a pausing, it's a thinking, it's aRight? The same thing we do, like, I teach a writing planning process, and that process is one kind of job, right? The job of, like, making decisions- And executing on those decisions. So the making decisions is another job, and the [00:28:00] executing on the decisions is another job. So just realizing, like, what is my job in this moment, that is a really powerful thing to think about and think like, “No, in the scope of this whole project, my job right now is to make decisions that then I can execute on.”Jennie: Yes.Cathy: And also... Yes. And not, and remember then, like, you execute on the decisions, and you might have to go back and make new decisions and execute differently. Like, that's what composition, that's what composing is, right? But you, you know, keep the job that you're, for the stage that you're at, and stop trying to solve the problems of another stage in the process.Jennie: So bleeding into other jobs sounds like it's a energy suck. So for, uh, a, somebody finishing the blueprint, it might be, “Well, now I'm gonna start researching agents and conferences I can go to to pitch at.” And it's like, “No, you gotta write the book,” right? Yes. Is that-Outro: Exactly, [00:29:00] exactly ...Jennie: is that the kind of thing- Yesyeah.Cathy: Yeah, and so, like, a- and it's also, I talk a- I talk in the program about, like, you're solving the wrong problem at the wrong level, right? Like, that's an in- perfect example of I'm solving the wrong problem. Like, I don't, I don't need to be, like, thinking about pitching agents. I need to be figuring out what my book idea is.Like, you know what I mean? And so for, like, in, in, in our, in my program, there's, you know, let's say I think that what I have is a writing time problem, but if I don't have writing project management, like if I don't know how to plan a paper and I don't know what the stages it needs to go through are, and I don't know how to manage it in relation to other papers that I have, I can have two hours of writing, and I will sit there and not know what to do with it.Jennie: Yes.Cathy: So, like, there has to be, you know, you ha- so solving, you have to solve the right problem. You know? Like I, okay, I have a backlog of papers. I think it's ‘cause I don't have enough time. Like, you probably don't have enough time, but that's not the [00:30:00] only problem, you know? And that might not be the most pertinent problem to solve first.Jennie: Right. I love this. I love this for our people finishing Blueprint. Um, and w- I'm curious just to sort of wrap up our conversation, why do you think... ‘Cause something that's remarkable about the program that you run, which is again at scholarsvoice.com-Cathy: It's actually .org, but yeahJennie: Oh, dang.Outro: Dot org.Jennie: I said it wrong. Don't worry about it. It's fine. Scholarsvoice.org. We'll put it down in the show notes. It'll go in the show notes. Yeah. Um, well, the remarkable thing is that people love your program. Like, once they find it, they don't leave. Yeah. They, they stay for a long time. Years. Yeah. Years and years and years.Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you think that is?Cathy: Because we're never done. We're never done as writers.Jennie: Yeah.Cathy: Right? Like, we're always developing, and we're always [00:31:00] changing, and we're always responding to new situations. And I just think, like, I think it would be terrible to think, like, “I've learned how to write a novel or a book or an article, and now I'm done.Like, and now I just, like, rinse and repeat for 30 years.” Like, no, that's not how it works. First of all, it's just not how it works, and also, would you really want it to work like that? Don't you want it to get more interesting, different, better? Like, and so that's why people stay, ‘cause the, the, the curriculum is...I- it's called, like, a spiral curriculum, where you could just, like, keep doing it again and again. And as you are going through your career, you are changing, and your situation is changing, and actually the demands of your career are changing. And so you can just continue to do this work over and over again, and, and many people do it and then come back after they've had, like, a little career change, and they realize, “Ooh, now all of these things have [00:32:00] shifted, and I need to, like, go back and figure all of this out again.”And that's normal and natural and fine and actually amazing.Jennie: Um, so how can... If people are listening to this, and they're like, “Wait, I wanna get in on this academic writing-” Yeah ... thing, I... So it's only for tenured professors. It's not- So- ... for people who want to be that, right? No.Cathy: Yeah, so we... It is really for academics.It's really geared towards people who are in academic careers, tenured or hoping, you know, tenure-track professors or whatever they call it in the country that you live in, ‘cause it's called different things. Um, it- we have a lot of people who are mid-career. Like, so it's not just for early career. Um, but we, we have people at all different career stages, including post-docs, including full-time researchers, and so...And even sometimes people from industry, like, or nonprofit who are doing research work and need to put out publications [00:33:00] into academic journals. So yeah, and you can go to scholarsvoice.org, and at the top navigation it says, “Publish your backlog,” and that is my Navigate program, which is really focused on helping you publish that backlog of papers and keep papers, like, flowing out into the world.Um, scholarsvoice.org/navigate is where you'll find all the information, and you can apply, and it's open until, open for applications until August 28th.Jennie: That is awesome. Well, if you're, if you're listening, um, now and that speaks to you, you can jump on that. If you're listening in the future, uh, there will be another opportunity, uh, to get into- YeahCathy's program. And if you're listening to the hashtag amwriting, uh, podcast and you're not an academic, and- You're finishing a blueprint or you're realizing after this conversation, “Gosh, I'm doing the wrong job at the wrong [00:34:00] time,” or, “I don't have a time problem, I have a mindset problem,” or any of these, these ideas that Cathy has shared with us.Put them into practice and, and I think that for writers listening to podcasts like this is part of the mindset work because- Yes ... you're listening to bigger conversations and bigger ideas, and you're getting something in your ear that counteracts that story you're telling your own self. So, um, I'm just grateful for you, Cathy, for sharing those stories and thoughts with us today, and for doing this amazing work that you're doing out in the world.So thank you for joining us.Cathy: Thank you for having me on the podcast.Jennie: And for our listeners, thanks for being here. Now let's get back to work and finish what matters most.Outro: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, [00:35:00] aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

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In episode 502 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse begin what promises to be a multi-part deep dive into the Parable of the Good Samaritan — one of the most culturally embedded and theologically rich stories Jesus ever told. But before a single character hits the Jericho road, the hosts ground listeners in something easily overlooked: the charged context in which this parable is told. A lawyer — trained, confident, adversarial — steps forward not to learn but to test. What follows is a masterclass in how Jesus turns the law back on those who wield it as a weapon. This episode covers Luke 10:21–36, explores the covenant of works and covenant of grace, the noetic effects of sin, and why the Good Samaritan is far more than a lesson in being a helpful neighbor. Buckle up. Key Takeaways The lawyer's question is self-contradictory from the start. Asking "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" smuggles a works-righteousness assumption into the very grammar of the question. Inheritance by definition is received, not earned. Jesus does not give the lawyer a new paradigm — He reorients him to the true one. The covenant of grace is not a New Testament innovation. It runs through every Old Testament covenant administration. The lawyer should have already known this. "Do this and you will live" is not a Pelagian concession. Christ is holding out the law's own terms — perfect, total, unrelenting obedience — not to suggest it is achievable, but to expose its impossibility and drive the lawyer (and us) to the only alternative: mercy. "Desiring to justify himself" is more complex than it first appears. Tony argues that the desire to fulfill the covenant of works is not inherently wicked — it is the misguided belief that one can which is the problem. This distinction creates room for reading Christ's response as genuinely merciful instruction, not merely rebuke. The noetic effects of sin mean accurate theology can be deployed in service of self. The lawyer knows the right answers and still uses them to avoid repentance. Correct doctrine alone does not save. The fundamental human problem is not ignorance — it is the will's bondage and the heart's self-love. The parable is primarily Christological, not merely ethical. Jesus is the Good Samaritan. The story is not first about mercy ministry; it is about who binds up our wounds when we are left for dead on the road, unable to save ourselves. The priest and the Levite are not exonerated by their ritual obligations. Considerable ink has been spilled trying to justify their passing by on grounds of Levitical purity concerns. The parable refuses that exit. Everyone in the story — and everyone listening — already knows what the right thing to do was. Key Concepts The Covenant of Works Is Not a Black Box One of the more quietly important arguments Tony makes in this episode is that the covenant of works was never meant to be mysterious or inaccessible. When Jesus responds to the lawyer's question by asking, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" — He does so with a visible assumption: there is a clear, knowable answer, and the lawyer should be able to give it. And he does. Love God completely, love your neighbor as yourself. The covenant of works was always coherent and comprehensible. The problem has never been that its demands were obscure. The problem is that no one — save the Mediator — has ever kept them. Jesus is not introducing a new ethical framework. He is forcing the lawyer to confront a standard he has always known and has never met. The Lawyer as a Warning to Reformed Christians Jesse closes the episode's first movement with a pointed and personal application that cuts across theological self-satisfaction. The lawyer is not a caricature of ignorance — he is a portrait of someone with accurate, affirmed theological knowledge who instinctively deploys it in the service of self-justification the moment he senses conviction. Jesse names this directly as a danger particularly acute in Reformed circles, where doctrinal precision can become a subtle mechanism of self-defense rather than an occasion for repentance. The Reformation's great recovery of grace must not become a new form of the very disease it diagnosed. Knowing the right words about total depravity, the covenant of grace, and the mediator does not exempt anyone from the need to actually be humbled by them. Theology is not armor against repentance — it is, rightly received, the road toward it. Context Is Not Just Setup — It Is Part of the Lesson Tony and Jesse both emphasize that Luke 10:21–24 is not merely throat-clearing before the real content begins. The theological statement embedded there — that the Father has hidden these things from the wise and revealed them to little children, that no one knows the Son except the Father or the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him — is the hermeneutical key to everything that follows. The lawyer approaches Jesus as one rabbi testing another. But Luke has already told his readers that this is not a conversation between equals debating interpretive options. It is the Lawgiver being questioned by someone who does not recognize Him. The parable that follows is not just an answer to a legal question. It is a revelation — the kind that only happens when the Son chooses to give it. Memorable Quotes You do not want to pit the law against the one who has given the law, the one whose character is represented in the law — because you're always going to get owned, and you'll get owned before you realize you've just gotten owned on multiple levels. - Jesse Schwamb Jesus is trying to sort of reorient them back to the true paradigm of grace that is present under all of the Old Covenant administrations. It's not so much a matter of developing a new framework and imposing it on this guy. It's really trying to say, 'Listen — think about this for a second. Think about the fact that, yes, you know you have to love the Lord your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole strength, your whole mind, and you have to love your neighbor as yourself. You've answered correctly. If you can do those things, you will live.' — with the subtext: and of course you cannot possibly do those things. - Tony Arsenal The fundamental human problem is not primarily ignorance, but the will's bondage and the heart's self-love. It's a problem no amount of correct discipline or doctrine alone can fix apart from some kind of regenerating grace — which is exactly what Jesus is going to illustrate for us in the mercy he's about to display in this parable. - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript Tony Arsenal: [00:00:00] This parable is not primarily about us figuring out how to do mercy ministry. Like, that's important. It's probably an outcome of this. It's probably something for us to think about. But really, this is actually Christ saying, like, "Hold on a second here, dude." Like, "Let's just think about this." Do you need someone who is going to tell you to pick yourself up off your bootstraps and cross to the other side of the street and leave you to your own devices? Or do you need someone who's gonna throw you on their donkey, who's gonna bind up your wounds, who's gonna pay the innkeeper, and is gonna pledge to pay everything that is owed for your salvation? Right? That's not too on the nose here, I think. Welcome to episode 502 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm [00:01:00] Jesse  And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we've got a big one to talk about on this episode. We're marching further and further into all of the glorious parables Jesus told as part of His teaching. And as you and I kind of joked before we began, I mean, what did you call it? Did you say this is, uh, the big daddy?  Tony Arsenal: It's the big daddy, one of the big daddy parables.  Jesse Schwamb: It's one of the big daddy parables. Now, this one is probably second maybe only to the prodigal son. Yeah But in terms of its ubiquity and its kind of just common knowledge in culture, this one ranks right up there. And before I reveal what it is, which you may already know, I was thinking how so many times we look at the Beatitudes as expression of a master class in Jesus teaching the law, and I think that's true. But as I was reading and thinking about this particular parable, I thought, "I don't know. I think this one is, uh, right up there," because [00:02:00] this is like law on law. It's double law. Yeah It's law coming back at the law giver who's trying to use the law to test Jesus, and then Jesus tests him with the law that He himself gave His people. It's... I'm already getting too excited- ... and we've got something to do before we get there. But we're talking about the parable of the Good Samaritan. And so I can't imagine, can I just make a prediction up front? I, you know where I'm going with this, and probably everybody else does. Uh, this is gonna be like two conversations-  Tony Arsenal: At least ...  Jesse Schwamb: probably.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, at least two.  Jesse Schwamb: Is that fair? Because I realize we, of course, wanna get to the parable itself, and oh, my goodness, how much ink has been spilled. Even going back to, like, if you read, like, Augustine or, like, the early church, like the Patristics, the Church Fathers, there are so much that could be said, and maybe some stuff that just shouldn't be said about all the allegorical potential intent here about these characters. But [00:03:00] there's so much amazing stuff that happens in the opening of this, that's not just the setup, but it is its own lesson, and I'm real excited actually to talk about that with you before we even get into, like, all the good stuff that everybody expects that you wanna talk about. So we're gonna do it all. Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: We're gonna do it all, but it'll take time.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I'm interested to see if we're even on the same page about where to start reading, 'cause I, I think we might not be, and that's gonna be fun. So we'll, we'll let it fly and see what happens. It'll be our own little, uh, podcast game.  Jesse Schwamb: But, uh, I think- Well, I mean, we're gonna be in Luke chapter 10, but I guess to your point, we should be starting in Luke chapter one to get to this. Yeah.  Tony Arsenal: Exactly. But  Jesse Schwamb: we, we do have to back up quite a bit, and I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah. But I, apparently we're just gonna play that on the fly and see where we go.  Affirmations Denials Segment Jesse Schwamb: But of course, the Reformers had their five solos. Chalcedon had its, what, seven withouts. We've got opinions, and we're just as confident about ours, so of course it's time for affirmations, denials, where we affirm something that we think is good or awesome or [00:04:00] we wanna recommend, and we deny, again, something that is not so great or maybe just plain annoying. So before we talk about the Parable of the Good Samaritan, Tony, what do you got for us on this episode? Are you affirming with something, or are you gonna come in with a denial?  Tony Arsenal: Well, I've got two affirmations. That's fine. One is just- I will allow it ... a declaration of joy, and one is, like, a real affirmation. I, I just can't... It would be remiss of me not to share with our podcasting family that my son August and my daughter Adeline, uh, joined the visible church today as- Hear, hear ... uh, non-communicant members. Uh, Augie and Addie were baptized on the 16th of August of 2026, uh, into the visible church, into the name of Jesus Christ. Uh, was, it was just a great service. Um, it's funny because I've been- been talking with Augie. One of the thing with toddlers when you're doing something big like this is you kinda have to talk about it and practice and rehearse, rehearse it and, and get them ready for it. And up until maybe, like, I don't know, three days [00:05:00] ago, every time it would come up he would be saying, "I don't wanna be baptized. I don't wanna be baptized." And, um, you know, I, I, I, you know, I don't wanna force him to do something, but also, like, I make him eat vegetables. But, um- ... he, I, I think it was nerves, and I think something clicked in his head and all of a sudden he was very excited to be baptized. So, um, it was great. We've been talking about, you know, what baptism is, God's promise to you that if you trust him he'll save you. And so today he- Right ... he was like, "God's gonna make a promise to me to save me." So he was very excited. Nice. And he did a great job just standing quietly and listening to the pastor talk. Uh, and Addie was, was, was just a beautiful little girl, and she, um, she loved it as well. So that's just a bonus affirmation. I don't know that I could get through a podcast without gushing over that.  Glorify App and Devotionals Tony Arsenal: Uh, but the, the affirmation I have, uh, this is an, an app that I think some of our listeners may have heard of. Um, some may roll their eyes at it, to be honest with you. Um, I stumbled on this because, uh, you have an Oura Ring, don't you, Jesse? Jesse Schwamb: I do.  Tony Arsenal: You [00:06:00] do, yeah. So for those who don't know, an Oura Ring is like a little wearable ring that's like a, almost like a fitness tracker, but it tracks biometrics, pulse rate, temperature, all these different things, sleep. Um, there's a startup, uh, that has been doing a GoFundMe or a funding kind of thing for, uh, what they're calling like a Christian version of an Oura Ring. So it does a lot of the same things, sleep tracking, basic biometric tracking. Hmm. But it also has like alerts built in, and it's tied into an app that they use for devotionals. So it'll, it'll remind you to pray. It'll remind you, you know, bring you to an app to do a devotion. But the app it uses is a standalone app that I looked up, and it's called Glorify. Have you ever heard of this app before this evening? I have heard of  Jesse Schwamb: this, yeah.  Tony Arsenal: So Glorify is just a small devotional app. Uh, it's not much different than you would expect based on the name. It is connected to this, uh, to this Glorify ring, which again is, is sort of like an Oura Ring tied into this app. But this app basically is, is [00:07:00] designed to help you complete short daily devotional exercises, and they're usually very brief. They're based on a very brief, um, a very brief passage of scripture. Today's passage, uh, c- there's a quote. So today's quote is from Dietrich Bonhoeffer. It says, "True love does not consist in finding the perfect person, but in faithfully loving an imperfect one." Not sure why this devotional app is using a romance, uh, quote from Bonhoeffer of all people. But that was today's. Um, and the passage is Proverbs 5:15-17. So it's a, it's a devotional based on two verses, which is fine. So you read the passage. There's a very brief devotional on that passage, and then sort of a guided prayer, and they have both premium and free models. The premium model includes like you can listen to the devotional, you can listen to the prayer. Um, but just for example, today's prayer, it, it's very simple. "Loving Father, thank you for, uh, thank you because you're faithful and unchanging. In a world [00:08:00] marked by broken promises, disposable relationships, you remain the same. Teach me to reflect that faithfulness in my relationships. Help me to love with perseverance, grace, and commitment following the example of Christ. Protect marriages, strengthen families, restore what needs healing. May every relationship be marked by respect, truth, and genuine love. Shape in me a heart of integrity that honors you in both the small and significant choices of life. In Jesus' name, amen." So I think what I love about this, and this, I mentioned last week that there was, this is kind of like, sort of like the fluffy evangelical devotions. Like- Right ... there's not a ton of like solid doctrinal meat- But like, it's still nourishing. And sometimes we need a little bit of help. Sometimes we don't know what to pray, we don't know what to read, we're not sure. Sometimes in, I think in our Reformed circles, we feel like if we're not reading large portions of scripture and reading deep theological treaties or long, complex devotionals, that we're really not doing anything, and that's just not the [00:09:00] truth. So I've been using this in addition to other devotional studies I'm doing. I don't do it every day. I mean, there's some like streak functionality, kinda like habit tracking type stuff that's built into it. Um, but it's nice. It's nice to be able to pick it up, read a very short scripture, a brief devotional thought, and then have some guided prayer. I know one of the reasons I don't pray as often as I ought to is because I struggle to know what and how to pray. So even having some written prayers, I mean, this is why the Psalms are good, things like the Valley of Visions are good. Um, having some pre-written prayers that you genuinely pray but you're not having to come up with in the moment can really help. Right. So the app is called Glorify. I know it's available on iPhone. I'm not sure about Android. I'm sure it probably is. I'm sure they wanna have a pretty broad ecosystem. Um, and, and it's good. Again, it's, it's not anything fancy. It's not anything like super technical. Uh, and as I kind of alluded, like some of it's a little weird. Um, I, I didn't read the proverb. I think maybe the proverb is about romantic relationships, why they're, why they're tying in that, um, Bonhoeffer quote in, in the prayer. [00:10:00] But, um, even that, like it's pretty innocuous. And the quotes, like you don't have to read the quotes. It's not like you have to have to do that. Um, you could jump in, just read the scripture or just read the devotion and just do the prayer and you would be fine. So check it out. It's called Glorify, available on iPhone for sure. I'm pretty sure it's on, on Android. And maybe it's something you add daily, you know, this kinda thing like you do when you're on the bus or you're waiting at the grocery store, something quick you can do when you might be wasting that time just sorta sitting around or scrolling Twitter. Again, Twitter's fine. You can use your leisure time as you see fit. But if you wanna fill it with something like this, something that is more spiritual, then this would be a good option to just add a little bit of, uh, a little bit of nourishment to your diet where you might not otherwise be getting it  Jesse Schwamb: I have no proof of this, but I just keep saying it anyway. It might be that we're living in the golden age of really great- ... daily worship resources. Like, something to actually cultivate, not just, like, a devotional nugget, but something that actually leads you into a pattern and a habit of [00:11:00]worship, giving your attentive focus on Jesus. And I love that. So, uh, uh, 'cause I was just thinking, like, I was trying to look back on some of our past affirmations here. We've talked about the book Walking in Faith. I just gave everybody Awake My Soul last week. You're coming in with the Glorify app. I- we've talked about Dwell, if not recently, we've talked about that for some time. It's like a great Bible reading app, and there's lots and lots of new features, by the way, coming out on that- Yeah that are fantastic. And then, yes, all these other great prayers. I, I see, like, these books on prayer, like, actually, I'm sorry, like, prayer books, I guess, as, like, a great way to kinda... It's like a jumper for your car. You know what I mean? Like, just gets you started. What a, what a lovely thing to come into a place and have a launching pad. And I've been using a lot of Into His Presence, which is a collection of Puritan prayers, sometimes because, for instance, this just happened, where I wanted to pray for someone who was just going through a rough time, a good friend of mine. And I went to that place to kinda start and frame, knowing that I was gonna sit down with him and pray, how I might be able to do that well and [00:12:00] effectively. And these things are just, like, really phenomenal resources. It's just an amazing time to have all these things at our disposal. So that's another great option. It's, it's really more about, like you and I have talked about, Tony, like, whatever gets us into that pattern, whatever gets us, like, authentically experiencing under our own volition, coming in the discipline of sitting before God in daily worship with that expression being pretty broad in its representation- Yeah is to really include something of devotional time in the scriptures, memorization, metabolation, metabolizing. Metabolation, I'm just gonna make that up as, like- ... what happens when you, when you take the scripture and metabolize it into your own life. Meditating on it and, you know, again, maybe looking through the confessions and creeds that have shaped our distilled understanding of what the scripture teaches so that we're enhancing and edifying our mind. We're also engaging the heart, and then we're engaging God and ourselves in communication with Him through prayer. I'm all for anything [00:13:00] that gets us into those rhythms, reminds us of the importance of them, and like we talked about last week, makes it so that when we think about what it means to be married to Christ, so to speak, it's not just about whipping out some kind of marriage certificate to prove that, but that we actually have a frame and a behavioral pattern that fits a married person, that- Yeah how they act, how they think, how they behave, how they communicate, they're never too far away from their lovely spouse in some way or another. And so I think that these tools are great ways to get us exactly into that kind of mindset and practice.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, like, I think- In our Reformed circles, we can, you know, we, we tend to be maybe a little eggheaded, and we, we tend to be a little more intellectual and, and a little more, I don't know, studious. And there's nothing wrong with that. Um, but I think sometimes it can breed a sort of, uh, elitism and arrogance. Sure. Uh, this is a perfectly valid devotional tool. Yes. Mm-hmm. And, and I think, [00:14:00] you know, kinda like the old adage, like, well, what's the best translation of scripture? Well, whichever one you're gonna read. Exactly. Like, what's the best devotional tool? Whichever one you're gonna use, whichever one's actually gonna bring you into the Word, uh, on a, on a regular basis. Um, and again, like, two verses of the scripture is two verses of the scripture that you might- Right ... not have other spent time, otherwise spent time reading. And it really is short enough, and it saves your progress. Like, you can do, you can do the quote in the morning, and then you can check the scripture on the way to the, you know, the word work, on a stoplight or whatever. Um, if you have the, the paid subscription, you can listen to this stuff, you know, on the, the bus or whatever. Um, so check it out. Glorify app, they have a ring they're making. It's in funding, I guess, if you wanna check it out, you can check that out too. I am neither affirming nor denying whatever this Glory ring is, Glorify ring. But, um, but yeah, the app is great. The, the app is free, and it's, it's worth even just checking out and adding once in a while to your day  Jesse Schwamb: The glory ring or the glorify ring sounds like almost too Tolkien, even for me  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It's the one ring to rule all of your devotions. [00:15:00] Uh, and in the, and in the morning bind them. Jesse, save me from the trail I was about to go on, and, and I was gonna speak in the language of Mordor, I think, on accident. Uh, save us from this. What are you affirming or denying?  Jesse Schwamb: That's  Tony Arsenal: beautiful. Please tell me it's the language of Mordor. Elvish AI and Music Pick Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, but can I just say at the risk of really taking us really far afield so early on, which is not necessarily off-brand for us, I have done this... I, I don't know if I should be ashamed by this or I should be excited by this. But- ... um, the Elvish tongue in the Tolkien universe-  Tony Arsenal: Oh, no. ...  Jesse Schwamb: is like, there's several... If you're super nerdy, you'll know there's like several different kind of iterations or formulas of it, and there's no, like, official language like Klingon, but there ha- it has been studied, and basically, like, it's kind of like the Eugene Peterson of the language. Like, there's, like, just kind of a dynamic equivalent or an expression of words. Anyway, all that to say- ... there's several languages that, uh, Microsoft Copilot will just not [00:16:00] translate because it says, like, "This one, this language doesn't actually exist. There's not enough for me to do anything." Let me tell you something. Tolkien Elvish is not one of those languages, and I actually built an agent, because I have a coworker who can, uh, who can appreciate all this stuff, that takes a text, translates it into this kind of academic high-level Elvish from Tolkien, and then translates it back to English. That makes anything you're saying way better and far more poetic and just absolutely amazing. So if you wanna have some fun, go and do that with whatever your favorite AI model is. Anyway, that's free of charge. Real quick, my affirmation is more music. It just turns out I've found this band, and I've been listening to them a lot. The band's name is Thronebreaker, which is just a phenomenal name, I think, for any group. Uh, it's amazing. Uh, th- this is... I'm gonna read you their description from Spotify. It just says, "Thronebreaker is Christian metalcore built for the bruised, the doubting, and the ones still fighting their way home." And what I've really been [00:17:00] loving about them is it is kind of like Wolves at the Gate adjacent. It's really lovely music. It is melodic, so it's, there's not just that there's that kind of hard edge, but that is present in it. But, uh, the music is really lovely and beautiful, and in part that's because they're going through this, like, drip of releasing music where they're taking, like, old hymns or maybe songs if you're of a certain age like I am of kind of childhood Sunday school- And they're taking the lyrics, not the melody, and they're reimagining them. So they have two versions of Jesus Loves Me that they just released. They have the old We're Gonna Cross, a song called Glory to the King Most High. These songs are just saturated with gospel. Like, they're just all power, all encouragement, and all authority represented in Jesus Christ. They're incredible, and I've j- where I've, what I've been really blessed by is these two versions of Jesus Love Me are just fantastic. Like, they're orchestral. There is a children's kind of chorus at one point, and it got me [00:18:00] singing that song again, and really, maybe to what you were saying before, Tony, like sitting in those three words, which are really phenomenal words to hear. And so I have been surprised at how moved I've been by what really I, I first understood, of course, as a children's song with simple truth that seems, you know, depending on how long you've known some part of the gospel, obvious. And yet I found them all new again, and a, a really lovely way of just sitting in the truth of God in music that I didn't expect to find. So if you're interested in any of that or maybe just curious of what it would sound like if a Christian metalcore band took Jesus Loves Me and turned it into their genre, then honestly you should just go check out Throne Breaker. I mean, you pretty much have to at this point.  Tony Arsenal: I, I don't ever have anything to add to your musical affirmations or denials, 'cause I, I just don't. What I do have to add is that Throne Breaker actually sounds like some sort of really [00:19:00] amazing, like, mace-type weapon in Lord of the Rings. Yes.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes,  Tony Arsenal: it does. Or like a big hammer that a dwarf carries. And I would also like to say that if you ask Google Gemini to translate something into Tolkien English, it not only will do it, it will tell you how to pronounce it.  Google Elf: A ava aini Ilai amel i trona se.  Tony Arsenal: What do you think that was, Jesse?  Jesse Schwamb: No idea.  Tony Arsenal: First of all, that was elevated Quenya, a Quenya. Yes.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's  Tony Arsenal: the one. Classic Quenya.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  Google Elf: A leta Ilai amel aima.  Tony Arsenal: I would be willing to bet... Actually, let's do this.  Jesse Schwamb: Ugh.  Tony Arsenal: Uh, we don't give out prizes very often. Uh, I will say to anyone who can tell me what that is, the first person that emails, uh, or, or goes into the Telegram chat, we'll do this. We'll be professional podcasters and drive people to one of our channels. Here we  Jesse Schwamb: go.  Tony Arsenal: The first person who goes to our telephone, our Telegram chat and tells me what that [00:20:00] means, what that, uh, Elvish means, will get a Reformed Brotherhood T-shirt.  Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that is big.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: That-  Tony Arsenal: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna play it one more time.  Jesse Schwamb: Okay, here we go. Everybody listen. Every- All right, pull over. Stop your vehicles. Here we go.  Google Elf: A leta Ilai amel aima.  Tony Arsenal: There it is, everybody.  Jesse Schwamb: I'm not being a cry- I have a guess, but I, I, I wanna try to win the T-shirt, so I'm gonna- Yes ... wi- withhold. All right. Uh, yeah, that's, that's super fun. Did it, um... Did you also translate it back into English from that  Tony Arsenal: just to see- No, I'll do that later, 'cause that would give away the, that would  Jesse Schwamb: give away the prize. Yeah, it's, it's... We'll have to save that for next week, because that, that is the fun. It creates, like, what I was doing to, to have fun with this coworker is take very technical, like, work-related emails, and I would send it through. It would go through that iterative process, and I actually loved how it, it was talking. Like, it wa- this was an email about risk, and it, it gave, like, these beautiful grand metaphors that didn't sound corny or cheesy. That's the beautiful thing. That's amazing. It [00:21:00] was like true Elvish. Like, you were just like, "I wish I spoke that way all the time about, about risk." And it, like I said, it wasn't just like... You could, you could obviously throw something in and be like, "Make this Shakespearean," or, you know, "Make this, you know, sound like, you know, Milton." This is way better. This is way better, because it's not, like, actually trying to manipulate what you're saying. It's takes, like, the dynamic equivalent of what you said, then translates it back with way more kind of poetic infrastructure while maintaining, like, the essential meaning that you have. I'm, I'm selling this too hard. Everybody just has to go out and try it. So, all right, you know what's at stake here, but here's how you have to win this. If you want a chance, if you want a chance at winning this, you gotta go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood, t.me/reformedbrotherhood, and that link will take you to the Telegram app and our little corner of it, and you're gonna find there's a bunch of chats there. You gotta go to the affirmations or denials chat, and then you gotta put in what is the translation of what Tony just played.[00:22:00] I just love... Isn't it amazing, though, that, like, y- as you discovered, there's more than one version of Elvish available? Yeah. And they do differentiate between the various kinds. This is a big deal. I learned there are actually scholars who have, like, again, filled in kind of like the details of the language- Oh, yeah taking as a basis what Tolkien had there. Yeah. So I think that this is the best. We couldn't have conceived of this if we'd actually tried and planned for it, so-  Tony Arsenal: It's true ...  Jesse Schwamb: it's just better that it all happened in, in real time. It's true. And, and speaking of which, I think now we get to have the fun of figuring out, uh, where in Luke chapter 10 are we gonna begin? Or should we just start in Luke 1 and just let's see how far we can get reading  Tony Arsenal: in this- I could have, I could have Google Gemini read it in elevated Kenya, Quenya I did try to get it to put it in Sindarin, and it wouldn't do it for some reason. I'm not sure. Maybe this anti-Sindarin bias in Gemini,  Jesse Schwamb: man. Disappointing.  Tony Arsenal: It's disappointing.  Jesse Schwamb: Dis- disappointing. So let's kick off some Good Samaritan talk, which again, I think is gonna take us [00:23:00] through maybe in the next couple of conversations, in part because, like I said, we're not even gonna start at, uh, verse 25 because there is so much more that needs to be said, I think, before that. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think actually the proper place to start this, and I, I'm guessing Jesse probably, whether he was there or not, he probably figured out where I was going, uh, over the course of the last 20 minutes or whatever. Um, I actually think the proper place to start, at least one of the proper places to start, is in verse 21. Yeah. Um, and I- we'll talk about why that is. And I'll... I'm gonna read here, um, 21, uh, through the end of the parable. Uh, and this is Jesus talking. He says in this, uh... Well, it, this is, um... Yes, uh, I'll just read it here. "In the same hour He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one who knows who the Son is except... No, no one knows who the Son is [00:24:00] except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Himself.'" Then turning to the disciples, he said privately, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see and did not see it, and hear what you hear and did not hear it." And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live." But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and he saw him and passed on the other side. So likewise a Levite, [00:25:00] when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. And he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, saying, 'Take good care of him. Whatever you, whatever more you spend I will repay you when I come back.' Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" And he said, "The one who showed him mercy." Jesus said to him, "You go and do likewise."  Jesse Schwamb: I think you're right, of course, to back us up into verse 21 because I don't want to keep saying it's always a setup, but Jesus is certainly giving us like the right context in which... Well, Luke of course is the author here and as he's explaining the teaching of Jesus, he does so well to start out with some irony that we don't realize is gonna be ironic until we get to the, to verse 25 [00:26:00] when we realize who's testing Jesus, who's setting this all up. So this idea that the Holy Spirit, everybody rejoicing in the Holy Spirit and the knowledge and the wisdom, the intelligence that's revealed through the Holy Spirit to all of these lesser people and in particular here emblematic the infants That here we have kings and rulers, and in this case, this beloved scholar of the law, who all have this adventure in missing the point. They think, in fact, they're looking for the one who is to set them free, and they can't even see that it's Him who is before him. And yet, incidentally, God has already revealed all these things to the lowest, to the ones who are the most humble, the meek, the mild, the down and outs, the ones who are weak by the view of everybody else. And so it's amazing that if we just kinda, again, like blow past it into, like, just all the characters, we don't see that the teaching starts actually well above this, that even everything we're about to understand, that unfolds in our lives, ev- every spiritual incarnation and insight that we have [00:27:00] first starts with God himself in his revealing it to us both in his general revelation, but of course, in the specific revelation of his teaching. So I like that you started us there, because I, I'm with you. That's where this whole thing launches off, right?  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Parables Reveal and Conceal Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and as we come into when we very, like very start of this, uh, series, the, the parable series, Jesus sort of embeds a theology of parables into this introduction, right? Or I should say Luke does. But this, uh, this is written a- as though all of this is occurring as sort of one event. Right. And likely it was, right? So sometimes, uh, in the Gospels, events are kind of, like, moved next to each other for thematic reasons. It's possible that that's the case. It seems like this may have actually just been one, one teaching, and I'll, I'll talk about why that is in a second here. Um, but at the very least, this is placed next to each other in the Gospel almost as, like a, "Here's the theology of parables. Now, here's actually that happening in real [00:28:00] time."  Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  Tony Arsenal: And then also, like, a parable kinda demonstrating it, right? So the theology of the parable here is that there are many prophets, kings who desire to see what it is that, that, uh, uh, the disciples are seeing, right? And all things have been handed over to the Father or to, to the Son, by the Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father. No one who knows who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal, right? So the, the theology of parables here presented in Luke is that the parable itself is being used as a way to reveal the Father and the Son to those whom the Son chooses to reveal it to. The Lawyer as the Fool Tony Arsenal: And that leaves us with this lawyer, um, sort of playing, playing the fool in almost like a dramatic sense, right? In a lot of drama, there's kind of like the fool character who's sort of like the foil or the idiot of the thing who's, who's unaware and is almost like made an example of, right? Um, I, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but there's often a character in a play who's like, uh, it's [00:29:00] almost like the opposite of the everyman, right? The everyman in a, in a play- Right ... or in a movie is sort of like the outsider who things gets explained to, and he's sort of the proxy for, for the audience. Um, I think like, um, Hawkeye in Avengers is kind of the everyman. He's sort of just like this regular dude swept up in this thing, and oftentimes he's the one that, uh, the big characters are explaining things to. And really what that is is the big characters are explaining that to the audience through this proxy. There's also this concept of the fool in a lot of these plays or movies who's sort of like the dummy, the idiot of the play, who things are explained to, and it's still a way to explain it to the audience, but the character doesn't get it. And so that's kind of, kind of the role that this lawyer is playing in this, this narrative here. He, he steps forward. He's like, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers his question, and then in this like sort of like stunning moment of, like unawareness, he's trying to justify himself. He says, "Well, who is my neighbor?"[00:30:00] As though that's a question that needed to be asked, right? I think, like, we sort of think of it as like, "Oh, yeah, that's a valid question." I actually don't think it is. Like, it's pretty obvious, in the Old Testament at least, who your neighbor is. It's the people who live immediately with you. It's the other people of Israel. It's the people in your immediate concentric circles, the people you have direct access to. Um, and so then Jesus explains it through this parable, and whether or not he gets it at the end, I guess is maybe a little bit unclear. We can talk about that as we get there. But at least in the beginning, he's portrayed as this sort of, like, fool who doesn't understand what Jesus is saying, and then this parable is taught. So it's this theology of, um, revelation to those whom it is intended to, and further obscuring from those it's intended not to, not to illuminate, which is identical. Uh, maybe it's a different flavor of the same thing, but it's the same thing as what Matthew had and what Jesus taught- Right ... in Matthew with the parables. Jesse Schwamb: Right. It definitely is, again, illustrating, again, God's divine prerogative. I think you really have to do a lot of theological gymnastics [00:31:00] to try to work yourself out of a place here that says, like, "Well, this, this knowledge is accessible to all people."  Tony Arsenal: Right.  Jesse Schwamb: That if somehow we just work hard enough, study hard enough, come even before God with the right attitude or do the right things, that somehow all this will be made plain to us, and that's certainly not the truth here. In fact, again, the ironic setup is you have this lawyer asking this question, which creates this strange contrast because here's a man trained in the law, and he approaches the very wisdom of God to test him while the little children already perceive what this fool cannot. So it's irony upon irony, and then I, I like what you're saying. I think, and we'll get to this to anticipate a bit, I'm reading this as he's hoping that the answer to whom is my neighbor, just like he- he's received the affirmative from Jesus saying, "Yes, you understand. Go and do these things. This is life," and we'll get to all of what that means, I think, as well in terms of the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. But I think he's hoping that the definition of neighbor is gonna mean that he has [00:32:00] already accomplished the thing then, so that if there's somehow- Yeah ... he could just set the right boundaries. He could say, "Ah, yeah, I'm already good then, Jesus. I already, already did all that stuff." So- It's wild to me that it, it all starts with, of course, like some kind of scribal specialist in the Torah, of course, likely some kind of Pharisee by theological alignment. And as I'm looking at the notes here, what I find particularly stunning as we start this out is that Luke, of course, is able to speak several times in this parable to the intent. And so he says right away with great kind of fanfare and description that the intent here from this scribal Torah person was to test or to tempt, which is the same verb used of Satan's temptation of Christ and of Israel's testing of God in Deuteronomy 6, which of course Jesus is gonna quote here later on. So it's not, of course, like sincere inquiry, like you're saying. It, it is like adversarial probing. It is like really profound setup. It is dripping with like [00:33:00] ulterior motive. It's seeking to expose Jesus as either like heterodox or as diminishing the law's demands. And I think we've talked about this before, so Tony, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure in one of the previous parables we talked about sometimes how these get set up with this kind of weird like oxymoronic setting. Inherit Eternal Life Debate Jesse Schwamb: So like this question of se- uh, uh, itself, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: It's like more than just theologically revealing. Biblically it's self-contradictory, 'cause of course like we talked about inheritance, I think actually when we went through the, the parable of the prodigal. By definition, that's received, of course, on the ba- basis of relationship or promise. It's not earned by performance. And if the inheritance comes by a law, it no longer comes by promise, right? I think that's like Galatians. So the lawyer's question already portray- portrays like some kind of weird works righteous paradigm. E- even if you think he's really after trying to understand the true intent of God's heart [00:34:00] behind the law, he is assuming at least in this question that eternal life is some kind of wage that he can earn rather than a gift to be received by grace through faith. And that's a fundamental error that the entire subsequent exchange, including the parable, is designed to expose. It's both, like you're saying, Tony, he has not learned yet what it means to be in the kingdom of God. He's outside of that, and so he's trying... Now Jesus is bringing in this corrective action, as it were, set up in a story, but he's gonna turn the law on him, which, which I don't wanna get too excited about that yet. But he's... But essentially, here we have somebody who's the expert in the law trying to leverage the law by way of force against the one who he does not understand has all leverage and authority over him, and is in fact the law giver himself So he's gonna, Jesus is gonna drive him to see his own ability to keep the law that he claims to honor, and that's more than just brilliant. This is what the law does. You do not wanna pit the law against the one who has given the law, the [00:35:00] one whose character is represented in the law, because you're always going to get owned, and you'll get owned before you realize you've just gotten owned on multiple levels, and I think that's what basically unfolds here. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I have a little bit of a different take on the, the word inherit here. Um, I don't think what you're saying is wrong, um, but I think there's a little different flavor here, and actually, I, I think it, it still sort of propels us forward to the conversation we have to have, um, about the law and the gospel and the covenant of works, the covenant of grace. The, the Greek that lays under this word is, uh, it's a compound word of the word for, like, lot or portion and the word for law. And so, so the, this force of the word is more along the lines of, like, what shall I do to have a legal right to eternal life? Like- Right ... inherit, I think we hear inherit, and we think of, like, um, like what you get when someone dies, and so, like, obviously there's nothing you do to earn it, and that's certainly an element of the way this [00:36:00] word is used in some instances. I think reading this and kind of how, how the rest of the text plays out, this lawyer is coming forward and he's like, "What do I need to do to have a rightful legal claim to eternal life?" Right? We might even be able, and this is where it comes into the covenant of grace, covenant of works k- kind of paradigm. We might even be able to say that what this lawyer or this person comes forward to ask Jesus is, how do I gain, how do I gain the benefits of the covenant of works, right?  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Yep. That's language that was developed later that's not, not, like, biblical language in terms of, like, the actual language within the text, but that's the force of what he's saying. What must I do to be a rightful legal... Uh, what must I do to have a rightful legal claim on all of the blessings of the covenant of works, is really the question that's here. And so Jesus' answer is so instructive- Right ... 'cause what he says is, "Well, what's written in the law?" Like, he, he basically says, like, "Well, you should be able to tell me, teacher- Exactly of [00:37:00] the law, like, what, what needs to happen there." And there's an assumption on Christ's part that, like, there is an answer. I think sometimes, sometimes we, we, uh, we make an error in thinking that the covenant of works was never attainable, that it's somehow this, like, um, it's almost like a black box. Like, nobody could know what we have to do to, like, obtain eternal life. That's absolutely not the assumption Jesus makes. Jesus not only knows that there's an answer, it's such a straightforward answer that he expects this scribe to be able to answer it, right? And the scribe can, right? The scribe says, "Well, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, your mind, your strength, and your neighbor as yourself," right? The summary of the law. Just good old classic Westminster larger, shorter catechism. Where's the law summarily comprehended? Summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments. And then, then again, I don't know the questions exactly, but then it also, like, says, like, "Where does Christ summarize this?" Well, you should love the Lord your God, and you should love your [00:38:00] neighbor as yourself, right? Covenant Works and Grace Tony Arsenal: So the, the lawyer comes forward and says, "What do I need to do to have a legal right to all of the blessings of the covenant of works?" Christ says, "Well, what do you think?" He says, "Well, you obey the entirety of the law." And he says, "You've answered correctly. Do this. Obey the entirety of the law and you will live." So the parable itself doesn't necessarily speak to this law, gospel, covenant of works, covenant of grace paradigm. The, the parable is used to show that not only does this lawyer know what is required of him, but that he won't do it.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: And I think that's really key, because even in the parable, within the parable itself, there are these figures that know what they should do, right? I, I think, um, we'll get into it, but there's a lot of ink spilled on almost like, um, explaining [00:39:00] why the priest and the Phar- phar- and the, the Levite almost like did the right thing by going to the other side of the room, and it points to like, well, their priestly and Levitical responsibilities, if they touch a dead body, like they can't do those things, and those things are so important. Like, there's a lot of ink spilled trying to almost explain why what they did is right, when the point of the parable is that actually we all know what the right thing to do in that sense was. And even the most righteous people in the mind of the hearers, the Levites and the priests, the most righteous people, even they don't do what they're supposed to do. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: This, this paradigm, this gospel law paradigm, law gospel paradigm, this covenant of works, covenant of grace paradigm, is so baked into the very like fabric of, of human thought that it's just there. And Christ takes this time to point out to this lawyer, like, "You know what's expected of you." And so that's why the phrase desiring to justify himself is so key [00:40:00] here. I actually think that the, the, the I don't wanna go so far as to say, like, that this person was regenerated in the midst of this conversation, 'cause I don't know that. But I actually think that there's a forward movement of this lawyer as he interacts with Christ that is optimistic. I'm optimistic about it, right? Right. He starts out trying to test Jesus, then he star- then he moves to having a desire to justify himself. I think we hear that, we read that, desiring to justify himself, we automatically think that that's a negative thing. But if we think about justifying himself in terms of what he's talking about, how do I fulfill the obligations of the covenant of works, that's not a bad thing to wanna do. Right. It's not bad to wanna obey God's law and to lay claim to His promises. It's a misguided notion of something we can't accomplish, but in itself, desiring to justify himself is to desire to fulfill the obligations of the covenant of works. That's not necessarily a bad thing. And so I think this is a merciful, a merciful [00:41:00] teaching on Christ's part. He's trying to instruct this guy to say, "Look, you can't do it. And even if you could do it, you wouldn't do it. So let's, let's talk about mercy instead and what that looks like." And that's where we get to kind of the end of the, uh, the end of the parable.  Jesse Schwamb: And again, we have to remember that we know that the intent here is actually to test or try Jesus, so He's certainly being merciful by using this opportunity not to just put him on blast, but to actually provide true instruction. And of course, like, that was, to some degree, this turning the question back would've been, like, a rabbinic pedagogical technique, but theologically, this is what floors me, is from the jump, Jesus refuses to let this man treat Him merely as one more voice among competing rabbis. Yeah. Instead, He holds that lawyer to the standard of God's own revealed word by, like you said, asking not just what does it say, but how do you read it? Mm-hmm. He's pressing not just for, like, some kind of recitation, but for the lawyer's own understanding and application, and Jesus is gonna hold him [00:42:00] accountable to his own hermeneutic. So by, by the time we get the answer, we know as readers, and all those present would've understood, he already knows the right answer, and he's not ignorant to God's requirements. He already summarizes the whole moral law correctly, encompassing both tables of the Decalogue. And so I think that does lead us then to this statement that we probably should spend a little time on, like, do this and you will live, like you introduced for us. Like, what does that even mean? Because i- it's not, like, in my view It's not like a Pelagian or Arminian concession that law keeping actually saves. I mean, it is the covenant of works principle stated truly inexorably that the law as law does promise life to perfect obedience. But that's the exact problem. I, I like what you said that it's not as if we can't understand what it would be to comprehend or contemplate this perfect law and what it means to fall under the covenant of works. It's just that he also presents for us at the same time this covenant of grace in which life is [00:43:00] granted freely through faith in the mediator who alone fulfills all of these laws' demands. So it's wild in this back and forth that's happening here where it's... I don't even know if it's fair to say this is like the most incredible subtext ever. I'm imagining trying to process this in real time and realizing everything that's being said, not just listening to what's being said and like the technical answers going back and forth. But I think like you said, that the Spirit even here is at work, I would like to believe, in the life and at the heart and the mind of this lawyer who's bringing forward this question with nefarious intent first to test and to undermine, and then is being drawn in almost inexorably into this debate to more profound understanding about a covenant based on works that cannot be accomplished, uh, in perfect obedience except through the mediator who organizes and distributes liberally this covenant of grace to his children for whom he has accomplished at least passively and then actively in his obedience in life and death. And so Jesus' reply is, I [00:44:00] think, thus a very genuine like if that functions to expose an impossibility. I, I don't think he's teaching salvation by works here, of course. He is holding out the law's own terms so that the lawyer and everybody else listening, and even us as well, can discover through this narrative which is about to happen the impossibility of self-produced righteousness, which again is what this gentleman is theologically all about. He's trying to justify himself. And that is precisely the pedagogical strategy like Paul uses later when he systemizes all of this by saying that the law was our guardian or school master until Christ came in order that we might be justified by faith. I think- Yeah ... and it's only because God is good to us and we might sit in some of this teaching, I think this is all in play. So, so I ask you, like, have I gone too far with all this? Like, how much do you think in the real time was being processed? And maybe that's a horrible question to ask because we know the Spirit does this work of illumination and enlightenment, and we're on the other [00:45:00] side of this and have this time to sit and to kind of parse and to really kind of just be pickled in all of this. But there's so much happening here, right?  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, maybe I'll answer the question a, a little bit of a different way. I think, um- We often can think about Old Testament religion, if we wanna kinda call it that. We think about Old Testament religion as though it was totally uniform and, um, entirely legalistic. Right. Uh, my- the, the listener is gonna panic a little bit when I say this, so please don't freak out, but I, I think N.T. Wright, uh, and some of the new perspective on Paul stuff is a, a little bit helpful in this, in that it gives us a foil to sorta push against. Yes. The new perspective on Paul is this idea that, um- Paul was not saying that Judaism was legalistic and Christianity is a grace-based religion, right? He, m- [00:46:00] um, N- NPP is not, is saying, um, Paul was not correcting New or Old Testament religion. And where they go wrong is that they say that Paul actually retains this concept of covenantal faithfulness, covenantal nomism fidelity. Uh, where I think, where I think they're right is that this idea that, like, the Old Testament religion is entirely legalistic and Paul was just sort of correcting that, I think that's way too simplistic. And the reason I say that is that the Mosaic Covenant for, you know, w- and predominantly this podcast is coming from a sort of Westminster Confession of Faith Presbyterian perspective, give or take, right? The, the broad Reformed tradition would say that the, the Mosaic, uh, covenant, the Davidic Covenant, all of the covenants of the Old Testament, and we can break them up in all sorts of different ways, but all of the covenants of the Old Testament, [00:47:00] um, with maybe the exception of the Noahic Covenant, and there's some debate about that, all of those are They're not just, like, supporting structures for the covenant of grace, but they actually are the covenant of grace in various administrations. If that's true, and of course we believe that it is, if that's true, then the people of those covenants understood that on some level. Right. Right? So to think that, like, people under the administration of the covenant of grace somehow thought that they were operating under a legalistic framework doesn't make any sense. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah,  Tony Arsenal: that's true. So, so where I think that applies here is I think this person coming forward, it's not as though the concept of the covenant of grace... Again, that's language that we would develop later, but the concept that God graciously saves His people by the counsel of His own will, apart from their works of righteousness, apart from their meritorious effort, that God [00:48:00] simply extends His grace and conveys the cov- the blessings of the covenant of works to those who trust in the mediator, those who trust in the one to come, the, the forthcoming serpent-crushing seed, right, if you wanna use- Right language from Genesis 3. The, the idea that God simply graciously conveys the blessings of the covenant of works to those people Um, that's not something that's alien to the Old Testament, right? It's not alien to the, even to the Mosaic economy. The most law-based of all of the Old Testament, um, covenants, even that starts with the concept that these people are God's people who he redeemed out of Egypt, right? Right. The redemption out of Egypt comes before the giving of the law, and the giving of the law is a result of the redemption out of Egypt. So to think that this lawyer comes forward, and again, this had been sort of corrupted and distorted and had become a very works-based, uh, [00:49:00] meritorious-based understanding. But the idea that this framework of a covenant of grace is totally alien to this guy just doesn't, it just doesn't, I think it doesn't play. And so I think rather than us read this as I think sometimes we do, of Christ as kind of like giving this guy, trying to give this guy an entirely new paradigm, or like the rich young ruler is very much a parallel kind of situation. We read this, this guy comes forward, he's like, "What do I gotta do to earn eternal life?" Christ is like, kinda basically says like, "Well, you dum-dum, you can't. And I'm gonna demonstrate for you that you can't by- Right ... taking sort of like this situation that you can't possibly believe that you fulfilled and telling you to fulfill it." That's the outcome of this. We'll get to that when we get to the end of the parable. Um, he's not trying to give them a new paradigm. He's trying, in my opinion, he's trying to sort of reorient them back to the true paradigm of grace that is present under all of the Old Covenant administrations. So it's not so much a matter of like [00:50:00] developing a new framework and impli- like imposing this new framework on this guy. It's really trying to say like, "Listen- Think about this for a second, dude. Think about this, right? Think about the fact that, yes, you know you have to love the Lord your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole strength, your whole mind, and you have to love your neighbor as yourself, right? You've answered correctly. If you can do those things, you will live. With the subtext, which I think is what you're getting at, the subtext of, like, and of course you cannot possibly do those things. Right. Right. So what's the alternative, my friend? The alternative is not justifying yourself by somehow identifying who the person is that you have to love the most. The, the, the, um, the... Well, we'll get this when we get to the parable itself, but the, the alternative is... This will be interesting, 'cause I'm not sure that we... I don't know where you are on this, but, um, the alternative is that there's someone out there who shows us mercy. [00:51:00] Right. There's someone out there who takes care of our need despite our total inability to do so. Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  Tony Arsenal: That's the alternative to the covenant of works, is the covenant of grace. I m- maybe I'm, like, hinting at it too much, so I'll just say it. Like, Jesus is the Good Samaritan, right? Like, there's something for us to learn about our own justification here and our own- Right ... like, um, our own need to be merciful, to treat people as our neighbors. But just like we talked about when we talked about, like, what does the least of these mean, this parable, uh, I'm totally, like, burying the lede for next, next week, but that's fine. This parable is not primarily about us figuring out how to do mercy ministry. Right. Like, that's important. It's probably an outcome of this. It's probably something for us to think about. But really, this is actually Christ saying, like, "Hold on a second here, dude." Like, "Let's just think about this." Do you need someone who is going to tell you to pick yourself up off your bootstraps and cross to the other side of the street and leave you to [00:52:00] your own devices? Or do you need someone who's gonna throw you on their donkey, who's gonna bind up your wounds, who's gonna pay the innkeeper, and is gonna pledge to play- pay everything that is owed for your salvation? Right? That's not too on the nose here, I think. Right. And, and I really look forward to, like, unpacking that, although maybe we don't need to now, but I think, like, this parable is so much more about how salvation works than it is about, like, what it means to have a good neighbor and to be a good neighbor. I think we get bogged down in that, and I just am really excited to talk more about, like, what I think this parable actually gets at.  Jesse Schwamb: I agree, and it's happening in the contex

What if some of the people you see as competitors could actually help you grow your property management business? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, Jason and Sarah Hull talk about collaboration over competition and why a scarcity mindset can cause property management business owners to overlook opportunities sitting right in front of them. They break down why clients aren't necessarily choosing a property manager because of a secret strategy, service, or sales pitch, and why trying to protect everything you do from your competitors may be doing more harm than good. If you've been treating the property managers around you strictly as competition, this episode may change the way you look at them. You'll Learn [00:00] Introduction and industry overview [00:58] False scarcity and competition myths [03:19] Clients choose you for your uniqueness, not secret sauce [05:16] The industry benefits from collaboration, not isolation [06:15] Debunking false assumptions about growth and scarcity [08:39] Lead generation is easier than perceived [09:06] The abundance of property management opportunities [11:51] Overcoming fear and false evidence [12:52] Collaboration over competition explained [16:16] The neighbor strategy for referrals Quotables "They work with you because they like you. Because you're unique, because you are uniquely you." — Sarah Hull  "People don't want to buy property management. They want to buy you." — Jason Hull "Some of your neighbors could become one of your best friends and best assets." — Jason Hull Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:00) All right, five, four, three, two, one. Hey everybody, I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. This is Sarah Hull, owner of DoorGro and the COO. We are the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry.   At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. All right, so today we're going to be talking about collaboration over competition in the property management industry. And the reason for this is because a lot of you are dealing with a lot of false scarcity.   false competition and you're not leveraging some of the people that could be feeding you business, maybe even in your own neighborhood. And so let's get into this. All right, let's talk about it. So if you've ever thought, no, I don't want my competitors   registers to know about doorgrow. I don't want them to work with door grow. I only want to do this or I only want to have the best stuff or I only want to do, you know, the whatever strategy or you know, I want all the connections. And I think a lot of times that's really based in a a scarcity mindset and in a fear-based mindset. Yeah. If you find something that's good and then you go, I'm gonna keep this little secret to myself. I I don't want to tell anyone else about it.   I only want it for me. And maybe it's a website or maybe it's, you know, a special pricing tool, or maybe it's your sales process, or, you know, maybe it's a referral source. Maybe it's what do they call it at KFC? Like the the secret ingredients. Eleven secret eleven herbs and spices. Like I can't I can't let anybody else know what I do or how I do it or why. I don't want them to know anything about me. Then a lot of times I I know it feels like hey, I'm protecting   my assets and I'm protecting my my business and I'm making sure that you know not everyone can copy me. And what it usually boils down to though is A property management is just inherently not that different. Like what one property manager does is really similar to what another property manager does. Are there slight nuances and differences between two companies? Yes, of course there are. How they do things is different.   Of course. But the product itself, what you're actually doing, is not very different from company to company to company. So you're really not saving yourself what you think like what you think you're doing is, I'm not telling anybody. I'm keeping this to myself. I don't want anyone to copy me. It it's it's all the same product. And usually people don't decide to work with you because you have the secret sauce.   They work with you because they like you. Because you're unique, because you are uniquely you. So your competitor and you might do the exact same thing in the exact same area, in the exact same market, targeting the exact same properties and clients. You do everything the same. Your pricing might be the same, the website might look similar, your sales pitches often pretty similar. That's why when you call property management companies, you kind of have deja vu and you hear the same thing again and again and again and again.   Unless you talk with one of our clients and then the conversation sounds slightly different. But it's it's all it all boils down to the same thing. And people aren't working with you because you said the magic words like, they said this one thing and now I have to work with them because no other company does that. No other company is like that. That usually is not the case. Because the product and the service is what it is. It's it's the same. But you're different.   And they like you. And that's why someone will work with you. And guess what? Your competitors probably unless unless you're maybe really mean to them, your competitors probably like you too as a person. They, you know, there's probably maybe some friendly competition there. But they probably like you too. And if you got to know them, you might find that you like them as well. And I think that   looking at this as a collaboration instead of no, it's it's all me, it has to be me, I'm the only one, I'm the best one, and nobody else in this market, everybody else is like this or like that. I'm the only one. Well, all right. I I just don't know how that really serves the industry. I don't know how that really serves the community. Well let's take a step back because I think a lot of business owners   And until your own basic needs are met, you don't care about the community. Let's be real. Like if you're you and your family are hungry and starving, you need money, you need to pay rent, you need to pay your bills, you you want to get your business going. You don't care about the community. You don't care about the industry. You care about yourself, which is fine. So let me help you see how you by being selfish and looking at yourself, you have probably some false assumptions that are causing you to not grow. And that's why you're in this that that   That camp and why you're struggling. So, first of all, like Sarah said, you may have this false scarcity mindset. So, first of all, there is, let's let's kill some assumptions. First, why do you have the assumption that there's a it's hard to grow your business? Or the assumption that there's there's only a small amount of business to go around, or the false assumption that maybe it's difficult to grow your property management business.   What if none of this was even true? These are all false assumptions you have based on bad data and bad information because you've had bad ideas or bad strategy. So, first of all, most property management companies suck in most markets. Why do they suck? Because they're stuck in a lot of this bad mindset stuff. They didn't wake up in the morning saying, I want to start a bad business today. And if you're struggling and customer service is kind of, you know, falling apart, or you've got clients leaving, or people are frustrated.   Or you're super stressed out and you're not loving your business, you didn't wake up in the morning one day and say, This is, I want to start a crappy business today. But that's the default of where you end up when you make certain decisions with certain assumptions because you have blind spots. So let's see if we can destroy a few blind spots for you right now. First, is property management, does everybody sell the same thing? Like Sarah said, no, because why? Property management isn't even the product that people want to buy from you.   They're the right owners that you want. So they're looking for a property management business owner they can partner with that they trust to take over their property. They're not just looking for the cheapest person. But when you commoditize yourself, so by having the wrong offer, you turn yourself into a commodity. You're now and because you're selling the wrong product. And if you're selling the wrong product to the wrong audience, you have the wrong offer that's optimized for the wrong people.   And so then you have the wrong clients, and then your business is really operationally expensive. Your operational costs are really high, really difficult clients to deal with because you have bad channels, the wrong channels, wrong product, wrong offer, wrong clients, right? So we, if we want to counter this and get out of the cycle of suck, one, you have to start firing bad clients. You have to start filtering the cloud clients that you bring on. You need better channels of opportunity that feed you.   Healthier business, healthier property owners, healthier clients, people that trust you, people that are not going to try to micromanage you. The operational costs are lower. They're healthier investors. And then you can sell the right product to them. And then you can have the right offer that's attractive to that type of buyer. And so then everything gets a lot easier. The other thing is Legion is hard. Let's let's attack that. Legion is not hard.   At least half of all rental properties out there are being managed by somebody that doesn't enjoy doing it or that sucks at doing it. Maybe most of them are managed by somebody that doesn't enjoy doing it because a lot of your the lot of half are probably professionally managed or less. And a lot of them are miserable or aren't even good at it. That might be you listening to this right now. And we could help you with that. But most property management companies suck. Most people.   though are not using property manager. So there's a lot of self managing people. They don't enjoy doing it. And rarely have you ever run into a vessor that says, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm doing it myself and I love it. It's my favorite thing. I love managing property. I love showing the property. I love doing inspections and leasing and maintenance coordination. They don't th it's not a hard sell.   Right. So I don't think it's hard to sell property management. I don't think it's hard to get leads. There's tons of available business out there. When scarcity happens is when your channels suck. So if you're focused on SEO, pay-per-click, like Google Ads, pay per lead, like all property management.com, social media marketing, content marketing. Here's where there's a lot of scarcity because there's very little internet or search volume.   looking for property management. And so there's a lot more scarcity there. And there are people winning at this game. But this is kind of like there's there are people winning in Vegas when they're gambling. There are winners. And you see these winners and you're like, they're winning. The lottery. They're like number one on Google. They've been there for a decade. Yeah, they're winning. And everybody else, like second place on Google, gets like a dramatically less traffic, less leads, less business. And that's   It's a hard game to play. So if you're going after Goliath and you are David, but you tr decide to do the same things, you're making really bad moves. So we've got to get you focused on better, more effective lead gen strategies where you're not do focus on digital marketing and you're able to reach these investors and owners that would love your help. They're just not looking for a property manager actively. That doesn't mean they wouldn't buy it. That doesn't mean they don't need it. That doesn't mean they would they would   like give up all that extra freedom and time that they would love to have that you could give to them. You can sell them on this. This is not hard to sell. They don't even like doing it. And you can take it off their plate. And it might even be free for them if they haven't raised rent in the last two years. You just like they might be 10% below market rate on rent. They might be dealing with mol like lots of vacancy.   If you can decrease their vacancy significantly over the course of a year, you probably could pay for your management services just by doing that. So here we are we want to destroy all these false assumptions because fear, they say that is an acronym that stands for false evidence appearing real. So if you're you're in the state of fear or in the state of false scarcity or you have the scarcity mindset.   Every decision you make from that place, from that mindset, is going to be not true or is going to be false or is going to be skewed or is going to be ineffective. And so a lot of you are making decisions from a place of scarcity, which isn't even accurate. There's tons of business out there. Tons of business. There's lots of different growth engines, lots of different strategies and vehicles you could implement on how to grow your business. If you get on a sales call with us, our team will   Give you those strategies for free. So you will be convinced we could help you and you'll know how we could help you and what we could coach you on. So reach out and set up a call with DoorGrow. We are great at this. We've been doing this for almost 18 years. So that's what I would say about that, to destroy some of those false assumptions. And so we believe in a doorgrow. We teach our clients. We believe in collaboration over competition. Right? What does that mean?   That means instead of going, I can't let my competitors know what I'm doing. I don't want to talk to my competitors. I don't want them to know what I'm doing. I would love if I knew what they were doing, but I don't want them to know what I'm doing. I don't wanna talk with them. I don't wanna work with them. I don't wanna look at them. I don't wanna have a relationship with them. I don't wanna put my pricing on my website because then they'll see it and then they'll copy me and they'll they'll do the same thing that I'm doing and they'll have the same thing because   We're the same, you know, we're doing the same thing. Yeah. And and it's that it's that fear. It's that fear and it's that scarcity and it's that well no. Yeah. There's only there's maybe two big companies or three big companies in your market and you're going, Well, I need to be one of them. So I'm I'm I'm gonna just distance myself from my competitors. And if you look at things through the lens of, hey, this is my competitor. Mm-hmm.   then it's really hard for you to want to work with or have a relationship with someone who's your competitor. So you need to be able to look at things different and realize, yeah, you might be in the same market. Yeah, you might do the same thing. Yeah, you might serve the same audience and you might have the same target and you really might have similar goals. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't collaborate. Yeah.   And the thing is, people don't want to buy property management. They want to buy you. And you're different than all of your competitors. You have a different philosophy. And hopefully you have a healthy mindset because really what they're buying from you as a partner partially is your mindset. It is your belief system. And if you are coming from a place of scarcity, you also are not going to be very attractive to the healthiest clients. You're not going to be attractive to the best investors. And if you're walking around going, why are all the owners in my market are cheap? You know what that tells me about you?   Yeah, we talk about this in our pricing secrets training and how to figure that out. Like you might be a cheap owner or a cheap O, as I call it, a cheap investor or cheap mindset person, right? So we gotta shift your mindset and that then you start attracting people like you, healthier people. All right, let's do a quick word from our sponsor. We'll get back into this. So our sponsor is second nature. We're talking about collaboration. Yeah.   He's been steamrolling me all day today. okay. Are we segueing into this? Go ahead. Do you want to do it? No, no, you take it. Go ahead. You just you do it. Well go ahead. To be fair, I pointed at it. I know. I didn't think she was gonna lead into it. Okay. Good. Speaking of collaboration and how to partner with someone who's really great so that there's a less of this   You know, scarcity and fear set. mind this fear-based mindset and how to focus on collaboration. Sometimes the people you want to partner with are also in your industry, but they're not direct competitors. Like Second Nature. So let's talk about second nature and then i after this I'm gonna tell you about the neighbor strategy, how you can y actually get neighboring property managers.   To give you business instead of thinking they're taking it from you. Okay. All right, second nature. So the resident experience is broken and it starts with the lease. Leases are getting longer and attention spans are getting shorter. The result is that residents don't read the lease, and PMs know all too well that just it's just a ticking time bomb. Second nature believes it doesn't have to be this way. Introducing resident onboarding.   So, Second Nature's new onboarding guide offers transparency, choice, and convenience to residents all while taking the work off your plate. Lease responsibilities and expectations are made clear and unskippable in a simplified digital signing flow. Residents can customize their living experience, whether they're selecting insurance coverage, upgrading their air filters, or choosing more expense or more extensive pest control coverage, and with group rate internet.   They get gig speed service right in their lease. Best of all, it's fully managed by Second Nature. So there's no extra work for you. This could help. It's kind of like a sounds like an onboarding wizard that they go through to bring them into a better experience. Visit secondnature.com slash affiliate dash doorgrow. So affiliate is A double F I one L I A T E dash Dorgrow.   To start revolutionizing your resident experience. Okay. Cool.   Would you like to explain the neighbor strategy? in two minutes, yes. Cool. So back when I did property management, this was one of the things that I actually really enjoyed doing. I like staying in my lane and not trying to expand into properties, areas and territories that I really wasn't interested in covering, but that I could cover because the right opportunity comes up. We all know how that goes. So   I was actually introduced to a property manager that was a neighboring property manager and I did not cover her area and she did not cover my area. But a lot of times we would talk with investors, both of us would talk with investors to go, hey, do you do this area? And I would go, Absolutely not, I won't touch that with a 10 foot pole. But I have someone who's great to talk with her and she will take good care of you. And she would do the same for me. And we would be able to send each other leads back and forth.   So that I could just cover the area that I was really great at covering and that I wanted to cover and she could do the same thing. And instead of then going, nope, don't cover that area, see you later, bye. Then I would go, well, I don't, but I know someone that can help you. And she's great. Let me get you connected with her. And that became a lead for her. And I got a lot of business from her. And I would send her a lot of business and it was really great. because some people would look at that and go, no, I have no time for that.   And it was a really great relationship that we were able to maintain and grow our businesses together collaboratively. Awesome. So if you you could be a vendor in this industry, you could be a property manager in this industry. If you think that your competitors are your enemies and you think that there's no way to collaborate with them, maybe you're not looking hard enough. And there are some big opportunities for deals to be had, for relationships to be created. And just like Sarah talked about the neighbor strategy.   There's we've had clients with short-term rental companies in the exact same city as long term rental company clients working with each other, feeding each other business. There might be a way to work out. maybe there's different types of properties, whatever, but some of your neighbors could become one of your best friends and best assets. All right. So if you've ever felt stuck or stagnant, you want to take your property management business to the next level. You're dealing with some difficulties and growing, you're you're dealing with difficulties with your mindset, whatever.   Reach out to us at doorgrow.com. Let's help you change things and start making a lot more money. And for a free training on how to get unlimited leads for free, text the word leads to 512-648-4608. Also join our free community online just for property management business owners by going to doorgrowclub.com. And if you want tips, tricks, and ideas to learn about our offers, subscribe to our newsletter by going to doorgrow.com/slash subscribe.   And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone. Wait a few so it doesn't off at the end. Five, four, three, two, one. Okay, bye.

Artificial harmony is what happens when teams work alongside each other day in and day out, but never actually talk about what needs to be said. Kiera and Dana walk listeners through why getting to the root of problems in a practice is so critical — from not just a teamwork point of view, but for the business itself — as well as where to start to turn your practice into a place where honesty and trust happens regularly. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today's a lucky day. I have the one and only Dana on the podcast with me. I love this. Dana, you happen to fit right in my podcasting schedule at the perfect time. So I'm getting more Dana time. You guys are getting more Dana time. Dana, how are you? Welcome to the podcast.   Dana (00:16) excited to be here. I know it's rare. Like it's rare anymore that I get a ton of podcasting time, but especially podcasting time   Kiera (00:22) Okay.   Dana (00:23) with you. So I was super excited when Marisa confirmed it on my schedule. So   Kiera (00:27) I was   too. I was because Marisa has them in like I like to start early and I like to just run. And so Dana tends to have a break between coaching calls that I'm able to like slip a podcast in. So always excited and I agree. Like Dana, we've had a we've had some good ones. And I wanted to get you on the podcast today because I feel like you've been doing some awesome things with teams. I feel like there's been this new wave of Dana going into offices because I think as a consultant, our job is to reinvent ourselves over and over and over.   Like who Dana was when she first started versus who Dana is today. Like that is a complete evolution. Who Kiera was, who offices are, like there's an evolution of that. And I think that this is the even the new evolution of team. I think the teams are shifting. I think that there's a new emergence from like even when I started the company to when you started to when we are here today. and I think you've just been doing some awesome things. So let's dive into like what are some of the fun things that we're doing for teams? What are some of the ways that you've been able to turn teams around and get to maybe like, cause I feel like a lot of people struggle with   artificial harmony is probably the best way to say it where teams are working day in and day out where they're not saying what needs to be said. And then I feel like Dana, when you and I get on calls or we show up in offices, instantly like the floodgates are open and we just get a dumping. And it's like, okay, well, clearly there's a lot you want to say, but how do we get that to be the norm in the practice rather than the abnormal? So Dana, take it away. Like, let's talk about some of the offices you've been working with, how you've been able to like   Crack that nut and get more to the root cause of problems and get teams to really gel and jive with each other better than I think we ever have.   Dana (01:55) Yeah, this is a really exciting topic because I think it comes up in like a variable of different ways in like, okay, people want to have stronger leadership, right? They want more accountability for their team. They want a cohesive team or a culture that people love and are super excited to show up to every day. And it's funny because we might not think that this kind of all ties in together, but I've been talking so much to teams about just.   Saying the things that need to be said, communicating with each other, solving like root problems versus just   like you said, that artificial harmony.   Kiera (02:34) Yeah.   Dana (02:35) and I was just talking to an office actually this morning and and they're kind of creating their quarterly meeting agenda. And they're like, well, what do we do? And you know, we feel like the same people participate and the same issues kind of get brought up. And like we never kind of get beyond like that surface level. And so we kind of talked about how just having open, honest conversation about that and really building an and   Increasing team, I feel like it all kind of very like boils down to like team trust and like communicating and saying all the things that need to be said. And I said, could you have a great like if you don't address this, could you have a decent meeting, right? Where you come up with good goals, you come up with good action items, you walk away feeling pretty good. Yeah. But when you don't have that trust and vulnerability, and when you don't open and have that communication, are your meetings great?   Probably not. Do we solve the things that need to be solved? Probably not. Do we solve them forever, right? And we're all on the same page and we're super committed and then we're able to hold each other accountable? Probably not. And so I've been working a lot with a ton of teams, with leadership teams, even with owners on. We have to be able to say the things that need to be said to be able to truly.   Be committed together and truly set goals that are going to move your practice, move your team in the right direction the most.   Kiera (04:04) Mm-hmm. And Dana, I love that you brought that up because I think, gosh, I'm like gonna like date myself and go back to like when Tiff and I first met. And I grew up in a family where artificial harmony was like status quo. Like I feel like there's a a pendulum and you either are like artificial harmony or you're like kind of like mean spirited and like a little cutthroat. Like kind of is the that pendulum swing.   And I grew up very much artificial harmony, right? Like we had like my siblings, we'd all run to my mom rather than like having a knockout drag out with each other. And as we've evolved when I met Tiff, she was very much an anti like no cure. We're just like gonna go to the root cause of this, we're gonna hash it out. And I it was very foreign and uncomfortable for me. But getting a taste of it, I was like, wow, that was so much more efficient. And that was so much easier. And I feel like I can know what's going on with Tiffanie now.   I feel like I'm not sitting here, and especially with us being in a virtual team, it was my first time running a virtual team. And I was like, whoa, like I really need to know what's going on rather than what I think. Like, there's no vibe check. Like, Dana, you and I don't get a vibe check with each other often. It's like, hello, maybe there's a little like snide slack comment that goes through, and you're like, okay, like let's check it. But that's all you get. You don't really get that vibe check. And once I feel like you you cross the bridge into trust and vulnerability, saying what needs to be said.   You can't go back. Like you are so, I don't think annoy's the right word, but you're just like, wow, there's like such a more efficient way to do this. Even my sisters, I remember a couple summers ago, my little sister, she was like still sitting in artificial harmony. And like went for it. I was like, all right, let's talk about it. I understand I can have a little bit more direct approach. I think I can maybe soften. And my little sister was like, no, like this is good. Like us having a hash, like, what's your perspective? What's my perspective? Like, let's come to that root cause.   You   and I are gonna be so much more bonded together. We'll have so much more trust with each other. I'm gonna know that what you tell me is really truth, rather than sitting here guessing, wondering, wishing, hoping like my mom doesn't need to come in and intervene between us. Like neither of us want that. And I think you can relate that to offices where no one wants the office manager or the doctor to come and intervene. Like Dana and I should be able to talk it out. We don't need Tiffanie to come in and mediate. Sometimes you do, but if you can get that as the status quo of a practice, it is fascinating to see meetings start actually become very enjoyable. People aren't bored in these meetings anymore.   actually say what needs to be said. We like you said, Dana, I feel like it's like it's the good to great. It's the like mediocre to excellent. And I think we've even watched it evolve in our consulting team. Like I was like, all right, we had a moment where I watched our consultants not give feedback that I I thought that they would have given. And it was such an amazing eye opening for me of like, all right, consultant team, like let's talk like how do we get more trust and vulnerability? How do I as a leader make it to where this feels like a safe space for you to say what needs to be said and   We worked on it this quarter and it's actually really fun to see it in our company evolve and in teams have it evolve. So, Dana, how do you like virtually and in person get teams to feel safe to start to change? Because to say what needs to be said, to healthy debate it out, to trust one another that you're not gonna go talk about me to my neighbor. And if I say something that's very off topic, like I always pull the example in an office, I'm like, all right, everybody, we're working Saturdays, and it's like crickets. And I'm like, okay, well, clearly we don't have trust.   'Cause I know none of you want to be working Saturdays. Like, let's have this and this is a good example. But I'm just curious, like, how do you even like broach this? How do you even one, I guess, like let's back it up. How do you know if your team has true trust and vulnerability? And then two, how do you start to bring more of that into the table?   Dana (07:32) Yeah, I think it is just I usually take a gauge of okay.   I'll notice in teams, right? That we'll come up with action plans or that we'll come up and it's like we we lack sort of follow-through, right? And then there's after conversations, or there's like, well, I didn't really do this because I had all these questions, or I didn't. So like that is kind of a sign to me in my team meetings and in my meetings with teams that, like, okay, we're not really saying the things that need to be said, or we're not because we aren't moving forward, right? We aren't implementing, we aren't getting to the point where, yeah, like we had this really great meeting, we came up with these actions.   Items, we're super excited. We went and tackled them, right? So   Kiera (08:12) Mm-hmm.   Dana (08:13) when I have a team that kind of struggles to do those things, or they're constantly like, well, we started and it fell off, or we did like to me, that is a sign of we aren't getting to the bottom of things, we aren't getting people committed, we aren't getting people bought in, so things aren't being said. So just like you said, that crickets where like that work on Saturday.   kind of conversation, then I just start to ask questions. And I think where it gets to kind of be an eye-opening point is so many times people   feel like I had in an in a virtual team meeting, a team member's like, well, you know, I don't say the ideas I have or I don't say the issues because I don't feel like as a team member I have like the authority to, right? So then it's just looking. So then I looked at the doctor and I said, okay, do you want to know the things that are frustrating your team? Do you want to know the things that are stressing them out? Do you want to know where they feel like things are?   in inefficient. And of course the answer was absolutely yes. Like I don't   Kiera (09:10) Uh-huh.   Dana (09:10) want my team members beating their heads against the wall on the same things if we can come to a team meeting and we can solve it together.   And then on the flip side, I've had the conversations of when it comes to like leadership holding back or owners holding back on the things that they want to say. It's truly asking the team like, do you want to know what the expectations of you are? Do you want to know if you're doing something that frustrates an owner or stresses them out? Or do you want to know that you are aligned? And every time, right, everybody is like, yes, yes, I do.   Kiera (09:41) Yeah.   Dana (09:42) Then it is giving them the tools, right, to   Kiera (09:44) Mm-hmm.   Dana (09:45) be able to create that with themselves.   And for them to really realize that it comes from there is a lack of trust or a lack of vulnerability on one side, both sides. And like, is it between leaders and teams? Is it between team members and team members? Is   Kiera (10:02) And you   Dana (10:02) it and it can always be strengthened and it can always be improved? But I think just getting to like, hey, this is an issue and let's talk about it.   Kiera (10:12) Absolutely. And I think Dana, you you brought up a lot of highlights of like they're not following through on their accountability. People are like, I want an accountable team. And if you go to like Patrick Lenciani's Five Dysfunctions of a Team, which is where a lot of this is pulled from, like bottom layer of that triangle is trust and vulnerability. Then it's healthy debate, then it's commitment, then it is peer-to-peer accountability, and then it's winning and hitting results. So when I think about that, it's like if people are not being committed, it's because they didn't hash it. So they're like,   I don't want to do that. And what happens is you get the side hallway conversations of like, Dana, I'm not doing that. Are you doing that? Like, there's absolutely no way. We're trying to cut those side hallway conversations. And that's where we tell teams. I tell all teams, I'm like, here's a safe space. Like, you guys get to say whatever you want to say. I don't care what it is. It's always with respect, it's with professionalism, and it's in the best interest of the practice. Not Dana's best interest, not Kiera's best interest. We have different perspectives. Let's bring them to the table. But all of us are here to make Dental A Team or   Whatever your practice's name is, it we're here to make it better. So as long as like those are ground rules. But I tell everyone like you have an open voice, you have an open space. And if you choose not to say it today, well, bummer, you committed to this. So you're gonna commit, you're gonna follow through because that's who we all are and that's how this team operates. But next meeting, when you're like, Dana, I don't wanna do this, we talk about it. And also as coworkers, if we hear someone saying I don't want to do that, you say like, hey, dang it, like I hear you. Next time bring it up because like we all committed.   That's how you're going to fix. And like people have to get on the same page and it gets awkward. But I'm like, if you can get 1% better every meeting, team members get very bought in. Team members then start to realize like, like I tell people, if you're not having a little bit of spicy fireworks in your meetings, you don't have enough trust and vulnerability. There should be some spice. There should be some fireworks. It's not like yelling, it's not like Dana and I are going at it. It's a Dana, like, let's talk Saturdays, right?   Dana's   like, all right, cool. So we want to work Saturdays. I don't want to work Mondays and Tuesdays. Like, let's talk about why we want to work Saturdays, why we don't want to work Saturdays, what's really like ultimately in the best interest of the business. I'm like, cool. Could Dana and I get to a point where if Saturdays really are a great practice, like practice plan, we don't necessarily have to work it. Like, that doesn't mean Dana and I have to go work it. Like, could we go find hygienists that want to work Saturdays? Like, yes. So instead of having teams shut it down, it's a let's.   Let's innovate, let's create, let's figure out what's in the best interest of the business. But all of us need to have a voice and then all of us commit. And then that's where I love the peer-to-peer accountability. Instead of it's leadership accountability, it's peer-to-peer. So if Dana's like hearing me talk, smacking those sterilization, she's supposed to call me out. And I think teams building up to this, teams realizing that this is normal. What's fascinating, I will say this for myself, it actually improved my marriage, it improved my family relationships, it improved so many things because I realize.   that that's healthy. Like that's actually a healthy culture. That's that is a harmonious whole culture, even though you're like, whoa, that doesn't feel like it, versus the ones that are sitting there silently. And when Jason and I started getting more into this, I'm like, tell me. Like I remember sitting there and I was like, I love having a good spice even with Jason. I love to be like, tell me what you think. What do I think? Like let's get to that. And I recognize some people like myself can be a bit more bold. and so I think the bold personalities need to recognize that some of the quieter personalities   give them a space to also speak up and quieter personalities, we need your voice. We need your perspective. Like it it's not you, it's just your perspective. So we can all get on the same page. But it's it's fascinating to watch the churn. And what I see is team members are going to rise up and some are going to rise out. They're going to be like, this isn't for me. I want to go back to the place of artificial harmony. But leaders when they start to see this is how this is how teams solve their own problems. This is how meetings become effective. This is how your business starts to actually like move, make traction.   evolve. Like you start to actually have functioning and and teams that don't turn over because they actually say what needs to be said and they're not sitting in that artificial harmony. Dana, what are your thoughts on that?   Dana (14:05) Yeah, I I agree with you and I love there are gonna be team members that can come in and they can really take this on and they can embrace it. And then there's gonna be team members who use it like they put their just their big toe in it. And I just did this recently in in person with an office and it was an office where they like really wanted it. They were like, Yes, we know that we need it, we need to say the things. but it was really scary for them because they   cared about each other and so they never wanted to, you know, that fear of like, well, are they gonna hear my intention? Are they going to understand that like I'm saying it because it's for the good, right?   Kiera (14:39) Mm-hmm.   Dana (14:40) So what we did, and this was really cool and really helpful, and they've had so many of these conversations since I was in there, and I can't tell you how proud of them I am. We basically came up with a code word, and the code word is I'm saying something that is uncomfortable for me to say because I anticipate that maybe it's going to feel negative, maybe it's going to   feel abrasive, right? But my intention is if I say this thing, then we can solve it together and we can move on, right? Those so like that is the   framing behind this code   Kiera (15:16) Yeah, uh-huh.   Dana (15:16) word, right? And for them, they picked something that makes them laugh. So they just it's a flat tire conversation, right?   Kiera (15:21) Yeah.   Dana (15:22) And so they always say like, hey, flat tire, and then say the thing, right? And that's just their way   Kiera (15:27) Mm.   Dana (15:28) of really just making them comfortable with this whole philosophy of we're going to say the things that need to be said. We're going to do it kindly and professionally. But it was kind of like their little lean in tool that   Kiera (15:38) I love it.   Dana (15:39) they use. Now I said we can't ever use flat tire of a like, hey, I was supposed to do   This, but flat tire, I didn't, right? We can't use it to get out of accountability for things, but it really is just to set the tone of I'm gonna say a thing that I'm scared to say that's hard to say, but I hope if I say it, we can grow together, right?   Kiera (15:57) I love that.   Dana (15:58) And so I love that as a tool, and I find myself kind of using it in a few offices since then, and they can pick their own word, it doesn't have to be flat tire, but you're right, this is hard for some team members to really get on board with because I do think that.   When they genuinely like each other as humans, this can be uncomfortable at first. So even using a tool like that, hey, we're not gonna not have the conversations or not say   Kiera (16:22) Uh-huh.   Dana (16:22) the thing, but maybe I need a crutch to get there.   Kiera (16:25) Yes.   Well, and Dana, I love that because I think I think most teams actually love each other and most teams want to work together. Most teams respect each other. And I think if we can even reframe that to me having the conversation with you, like let's go to the book Raving Fans. They said the worst thing that can happen to a business is for people to leave and not tell you. And you might feel like someone telling you and giving you feedback, like that's actually the best thing that can happen to a business because that means they believe in you that you're willing to change.   And so I think if we even reframe of the way I really love my team, the way I really support my coworkers, the way I really show them that I trust them is by having these types of conversations. Me not saying anything actually like is a disservice. None of us, like I ask every team, I'm like, how many of you enjoy like walking on eggshells around team members? Like we all know what that feels like. We all know when someone's like upset with us, but we don't know how to have that conversation. We're like, what did I do to this person? Versus someone where it's like,   Dana, like I feel like things are a little off. Like flat tire. Like, can we have a conversation about this so we can solve it together? That shows so much more camaraderie. That shows so much more professionalism. That shows so much more, like to me, that's a maturity of a team. There's like, I feel like it's like layers, right? Baby teams,   Dana (17:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Kiera (17:37) toddler teams, middle school teams, high school teams, college teams. Then you get into professional services like teams. Like you just think about like,   Even   think about the type of communication all those different layers are going to have with each other. And maybe that's also a way for us to graduate into those different layers of communication with each other. But I will tell you, as someone, and I think that that's something I'm very proud of, is I am a very like people pleaser. I love people like me. I'm very much sit on that artificial harmony. And sometimes, like even with Britt, like my hair, I'll like push it up and I'm like, all right, Britt, this is a moment where I'm really stressed. Like I need to say something to you. And I'm like,   Every ounce of me wants to say it, but I don't want it to ever land wrong. So just know, like right now, like this is me like pep talking myself to go into this combo. And I appreciate that Britt will giggle because she knows like it's so hard for me, but I just need to say what needs to be said. And I think for teams, like this is a muscle and a skill that's really going to take you from where you are to where you ultimately want to go. Like this is that bridge. And you can either sit on one side of the river or you can dip your toe in, you can step on the bridge, you can start having the conversations.   And what's wild is your team culture will start to shift and evolve in ways you've never imagined and you'll never look back. Like it's not like you might have some knockout, drag outs, but you're like, you what, I'd rather know than like not know. And you start to get into this where it's like, cool, let's have a conversation. Like you said, tell us about the flat tire office. How long has it been? What's kind of been their experience, highs and lows, and where are they today?   Dana (19:07) Yeah, yeah. So this it we did this more recently in an in-person. It was probably like three months ago. And   Kiera (19:14) Mm-hmm.   Dana (19:15) they've had, I think, teammate to teammate conversations. They've had leadership to team member conversations, and they've had team member two leadership conversations since then. And I can tell you, like they are more committed, they are tracking things, they are, you know, they've got a board where things are like red and green. We did it for just like a visual for them. There is more green.   On the board since then than I've ever seen, because they truly, truly are using morning huddles to like work through things and just communicating at a level that I'm so proud because I they really, really struggled with this. And I wasn't they were committed, right? But I had seen them fall off in commitment before because they did struggle with this. And so watching them really be able to   Take it on, use that. And two, the last call that I had with them, just feedback in like, hey, I had a flat tire conversation and I didn't even have to take say flat tire, right? Like I didn't   Kiera (20:15) Yeah.   Dana (20:15) even have to use that crutch. I'm getting so comfortable with having conversations that I didn't even have to use our funny word. And you know, they did laugh because it was like after the fact we were like, flat tire, right? but   Kiera (20:27) Ha ha ha   Dana (20:28) the fact that like they could just go in and say it in a meeting, right? Say it   Kiera (20:32) Mm-hmm.   Dana (20:32) in a not even in a one-on-one space, like this happened in a team.   meeting where they were talking about things, it honestly and truly has made such a difference in their ability to work together and honestly and truly commit and then hit their goals, right? And   Kiera (20:49) Yeah, uh-huh.   Dana (20:50) actually hit their action items. And it's been really fun to see how proud of themselves they are too.   Kiera (20:56) That's incredible. And I hope I don't know if you guys heard. I heard. I was watching Dana's face and hearing you're like, they were committed. Like you even like the little like trying to like, they were committed. And to me, that's not committed. Versus on this latter half when you're like, they commit and they hit, there is like a stalwartness. There's a solid, there's a grounded of are we like committed? Like, like we're there, but we're not, versus like, we know we're gonna have the conversations, whatever we say we're going to actually achieve as a team. Do you know how much teams love to win and actually like   Be confident they're going to win, be confident that the goals we set are realistic, to challenge each other and to see a team like Dana, that was three months of a change in an evolution. And I think that's fun. And it now just becomes a standard, it becomes a baseline. You gave them the tools to get there. And I think having a consultant, see that, give your team the tools. I mean, Dana, kudos. I'm definitely gonna take that because I think having the like word of how do I go into this conversation and making it funny that they all agree to my husband, I have the word Arkansas, and that's like if I want him to tell me the truth.   And I feel like he's like kind of like, hmm, not I'm like Arkansas. And he's no, no, Arkansas. Like, this is really what I'm trying to say. And I'm like, okay, great. Like sometimes we all need to just have that where we can we can check in with each other. And I think kudos to you, Dana, for doing that. And to get a team to just rally and to hit great goals and to be committed. And what's wild is this team, like I guarantee you, they've got the base foundation, just like Patrick, Patrick Lanzioni says, it's the trust and vulnerability, the healthy debate, and you lock in and commit.   And if you will do the trust and vulnerability where you healthy debate, your team will actually commit and then they hold each other accountable. It's like, no, we committed to this. Like we're all in it to win it. And then you hit your results. And people want to do it the reverse order. They want to hit the results, but they don't want to talk about the trust. And like Dana said, like we can like, we can kind of hit results, but we're not like so grounded and solid that we know we're gonna do it. So Dana, huge kudos to you. I think mad kudos of you giving that space and giving them the space to trust. And I think for other offices, if you're struggling with that or your team's not quite there.   This is what we're really good at is peeling back those onion layers, helping to open up the conversations. Because yes, you come to us for wanting systems and you want case acceptance, you want morning huddle and you want to drive your production. But a lot of times the secret to that bridge is getting your team to actually communicate with each other, getting your team to trust each other, getting your team to be solely locked in and committed to what we actually say rather than like half-heartedly trying to do it because they want to please you. Let's get people who are actually like very committed and this is their practice that they stamp off on.   And they own. So reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Dana, I'm so freaking proud of you. Any last thoughts you've got before we wrap today?   Dana (23:28) No, I think just when you want this for your team, be willing to do it yourself. owners, dentists, right? And and just it is hard, right? It can be hard to say the things, but know that when we can say the things, the traction that we can have and the movement that we can have is unimaginable.   Kiera (23:47) Dana, that is like a solid mic drop. You're right. Like it starts with leaders first. You've got to be willing to do it. You can't be backbiting. You can't be gossiping behind the scenes. You can't be walking out of a meeting saying, I'm not doing that. You set that example. Dana, love podcasting with you. I adore you. I'm so proud of you. For all of you listening, commit. Like, let's let's get our teams to be functional. Let's get them to be rocking. Let's get them to be totally committed. And this is the first step. So try it or reach Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. As always, thanks for listening. And I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Vince Horn, Emily Horn, and Brian Newman talk through the design of their Insight Chord Retreat in Western North Carolina—why everyone will start with a single “go-to move” (of their choosing) for the first 3 days, what Brian learned about reintegration after doing daily multiplayer meditation on retreat, and how to maximize individual choicemaking on the retreat while having a solid community of practice to fall back on, including qualified teachers & dedicated peers.

All Home Care Matters and our host, Lance A. Slatton were honored to welcome Alder Allensworth as guest to the show to share the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Community.   About Alder Allensworth, Co-Founder of Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's:   Alder Allensworth, MM, RN, is a registered nurse and retired hospice counselor who supported families caring for loved ones with dementia at the end of life. Her professional background spans working with both children and older adults, including those living with Alzheimer's disease.   The inspiration for this project grew from Alder's personal experience witnessing her mother, who had Alzheimer's, connect meaningfully with her grandchildren—Alder's nieces and nephews. This powerful family experience, combined with her clinical work, deepened her commitment to helping families navigate dementia with compassion, creativity, and connection.   Alder is also an accomplished writer, having published several articles in professional journals and books. As a speaker and presenter in the field of disabilities, she has shared her insights on local, national, and international stages. Her advocacy and dedication to promoting quality of life for people with disabilities have been featured on CNN, as well as in international media and local news outlets.   About Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's:   The Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Program (MMAP) is a family-centered multimedia educational program created to help children, parents, caregivers, educators, and healthcare professionals better understand and navigate Alzheimer's disease together.   Designed especially for families in the "sandwich generation," MMAP provides practical guidance, age-appropriate education, and meaningful activities that help children stay connected with a loved one living with Alzheimer's—from diagnosis through the severe stage of the disease.   At the heart of MMAP is the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Awareness Program (MMAAP), a 5-video educational series that explains the different stages of Alzheimer's while also providing guidance for adults who are simultaneously raising children and caring for an aging loved one.   The program includes:   • A 5-video educational series covering the stages of Alzheimer's • Guidance for parents and caregivers helping children understand the disease • Simple, meaningful activities children can do with their loved one • A quick-reference guide and video transcripts • Accessible audio and visual resources for different learning needs • An online community component offering additional connection and support   One of the most important goals of MMAAP is helping children understand Alzheimer's in ways that are appropriate for their age—while showing them that even as the disease progresses, there are still opportunities to connect, interact, and create meaningful moments with the person they love.   The program is complemented by the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Disease Picture Book, a gentle, child-friendly introduction to Alzheimer's that follows a young girl as she learns to understand and remain connected with her grandmother throughout the progression of the disease.   The book also includes a QR code providing access to a free Story Song download. The lyrics of the song are the text of the book, creating an engaging and memorable learning experience for young children, early readers, and families.   MMAP can also serve as a valuable educational resource for Adult Day Centers and Memory Care Communities. The ready-to-use program gives organizations a structured way to educate and support families, proactively answer common questions, and provide families with resources they can return to throughout their caregiving journey—allowing staff to devote more time to care, engagement, and meaningful connection.   Ultimately, the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Program goes beyond explaining the disease.   It helps families understand what is happening, gives children a meaningful role in the caregiving journey, and provides families with tools to preserve relationships, create positive memories, and remain connected throughout Alzheimer's and other dementias.

Re-releasing a Dental A-Team podcast fan favorite! Britt is fresh off visiting a ton of practices, many of which are part of dental support organizations (DSOs), and she's sharing her insight. With Kiera, she talks about the foundational pieces to set up DSOs for success — everything from training the leadership team, setting up KPIs, providing profit and loss statement education, and allowing culture and patient experience to grow in each practice while keeping an overall brand. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today we are bringing you something so special. I am so excited because this is one of our most popular episodes from the archives. Whether you're hearing this for the first time or catching it again, I am so excited because it's jam packed with a ton of takeaways that you can start using right now in your practice. We have released thousands, literally thousands of episodes. And I wanted to start bringing a few of these amazing episodes back for you. So I hope you enjoy. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time.   on the Dental A Team podcast.   speaker-0 (00:31) and I've got the one and only Brittany Stone back on the pod. Guys, she has been a freaking road warrior, traveling to seven offices in one day. Dang, Britt. Welcome back. How you doing? How you feeling? How are you today?   speaker-1 (00:45) I'm good. You made me sound better than I was in one day. Seven in a week. Still a lot, but seven in a week.   speaker-0 (00:51) Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. We could edit that or you guys can just know. in my mind, I think it felt like you were seven in a day. Like you were cruising   speaker-1 (00:58) Yeah.   speaker-0 (01:00) to practices. Seven in a week is so many offices. But guys, don't worry, Britt wasn't like leaving them high and dry hanging out. You were seeing it kind of walk us through. I know you went to quite a few DSOs that had multi practices, multi locations. Kind of what was that like and and how does that even look when you're going to multiple practices like that?   speaker-1 (01:19) Yeah, it's fun. So that was it was a week of my like multi practice location. So one had three offices, one had four offices, the two groups that I work with last week. And so it's fun. It's fun to see one you get to know kind of like the visionaries who who started a thing, whether it's just an owner or multiple partners that are involved in it, get to see kind of their vision and it's it's fun to see   the different also types of practices that are underneath their umbrellas and how they run 'cause usually we've got some different sizes, obviously different locations. So so yeah, I got to go in, meet everybody, go see all the different practices, kind of see what's going on with them, what things we could help with on an individual practice level and then also as an organization. So it was a good time.   speaker-0 (02:07) That's a lot. And I I do think it is fun when you go see multiple practices because this whole idea of DSO is that we want all of our practices to run exactly the same. And I know when I was a regional manager of ten practices, the bottom line is there is no such thing as running every practice the same. I think it's more like getting rid of that illusion that they're all going to be the same. And it's more what are the foundational pieces and the the silver lining strings that we want running amongst them all. Britt, I know you had one practice,   that kind of wanted to do their own thing within a group. Like, how do you how do you get like one, paint the vision of all the practices needing to be at least fundamentally pretty consistent and similar. And then also helping the doctors and the team members understand like, I get it, it might be annoying for you, but for the greater good of all the practices, it really does make everything easier when we run the same. Because I know a lot of practices just want to run as solo practices, but when you're in a group and multi-offices   that no longer serves the greater organization. Like what was kind of your findings with that? How do you how are you finding to get people on board? Is that something you were running into? Just kinda give us your thoughts around that.   speaker-1 (03:16) Yeah, I think every DSO probably struggles or like group practice struggles with all right, how much do we have the same and like where can we kind of let them be their own and shine in their own way? And also from the business side of things for the DSO, right? What things are more financially beneficial for us to be able to do them the same and have on the same system? so that we run it across all offices and get the true benefit of the DSO.   And so that's where you s kind of start to to figure out, all right, there's gonna be a lot of systems that one, yes, anything that impacts other offices or the group overall, we've gotta make the best decision for the group on how we want that to run, whether it's but easy things like payroll is a pretty pretty common one that's gotta be obviously the same across all over offices. If we're using the same software, right, the way we run our schedule, who's allowed to be on our schedule.   All of those things kinda need guidelines that go across the board. So we all know a little bit of the rules of engagement on things like the schedule. So that's kinda I start to think of it as all right, what are the most important things that impact each other that we need to have the same that's also gonna allow us to be most financially beneficial for the DSO? And then what things don't necessarily impact the other offices where those offices can start to really like, all right, what are procedures you do? Great, go run with it, build it up and   Even if we can get some referrals from other offices for that thing, fantastic and they kinda kinda do their own a little bit.   speaker-0 (04:48) For sure.   And but I was thinking like it actually might be fun on this podcast for us to dive into when you're in a DSO, because Br I know your private practice sold to a DSO. I work with lots of DSOs. You work with lots of DSOs. And I think DSOs are a pretty hot buzzword right now in dentistry. of kind of what are some of those things that you should have standardized. I love that you brought up the payroll for sure. for me, some of the things I know I'm looking at is I really am just looking at   Key metrics amongst all practices. And I know, Britt, with a lot of the DSOs that you and I are consulting together, that is one of the biggest things of making sure all of them are hitting the metrics. And then whatever they want to do outside of those metrics, it's pretty much free reign from there. So, like we're talking labs, supplies, overhead, production per hour per provider, hygiene production.   those are like my main things. Case acceptance is another one I really like to watch. Number of new patients per practice is another key indicator that I really love watching. but those are kind of the main things. And then I really feel like in DSOs and multi practices, some of the biggest things that get lost are culture and patient experience. And those are to be different shades for every practice. And I really I like practices to think in like, no, you want the patient to feel the exact same way whether they come to this location.   Or whether they're going to another location. It is that way. And having practices and offices think like I've got one right now and they just acquired another practice. And they're really doing a divide between the offices. And they're they're labeling each office based on the city. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. let's call them all the practice name. So we are all, let's just say, healthy smiles. It's not healthy smiles of probos and healthy smiles of orum. It is   Healthy smiles, and then we have our Aurum location and our provo location. Those are just a quick way because I think when you can have it as an umbrella of all the practices operate as this way, and then here's these different locations, but helping everyone realize there is the healthy smiles way. And we operate on healthy smiles first. Secondary is going to be our location. Are those some of the things you've seen? Like those are one, the key indicators I like to look at. And then secondly, making sure that people realize like the culture and the patient experience.   really need to be dialed in in my opinion, to really help these DSOs grow and flourish.   speaker-1 (07:09) Mm-hmm. I'm with you on KPIs, right? Teaching office managers how to be able to kind of take charge of those, know what's going on in their practice, and that we're all watching those important numbers to be healthy for sure. That's an across the board thing. and then I'm with you on capitalize off the brand. from a lot of the DSOs we work with, where it's a few different locations, usually I feel like a lot of them are gonna be like five or less, where you can truly   make sure that we are maintaining our standard, maintaining our brand, and then capitalize off of that brand for all practices to where there might be a patient who's looking to go to the office, but maybe it's a little bit farther. great, they've got a location that's closer than to me. Awesome. Let me just go ahead and go to that closer location. And agreed. You've got to keep then the culture and the patient experience up to be number one. And what does that look like? What does it stand for? And there are   I will say different pieces that go into that when it comes to maintaining that culture in our practices and that experience. And I think those would be some non-negotiables like you start to build in if it's we're on time, right, with our appointments as much as possible. So that's something we really drive with our teams. We're always friendly with our patients, we're always welcoming. How do we present on the phone?   you can start to dig into some of those things that you really want to represent as a practice and make sure it's ingrained in our team members and how we present.   speaker-0 (08:41) Yeah. And I think like you said it's that culture in that brand. And honestly, I think people forget that that's actually why you became successful. Like that culture, that brand you started developing, that's how you're able to multiple scale across other practices. And I feel like offices that that see all the practices as one company and then the the different locations are just extensions of that company are the ones that really flourish. In that same thing, I feel like Britt, something you and I have really been   trying to hone in on with offices is to make sure that they have a key leadership team. So people that are really in sync to make decisions. and that's for your operations, for your labs, for your supplies, and and then making sure that things can actually execute forward. Because I feel like when we get a lot of partners involved, what happens is everybody has a strong opinion, but those opinions actually are great unless they stop all the the forward progress   And I think they really just have to be key decision players that everybody elects. It's almost like a board. I feel like all the practices are almost like a neighborhood and you need an HOA, like somebody who can actually just make the decisions and execute in the best interest. And maybe you've got a few of them. So you've got, say, your regional manager who's overseeing all of the practices, the overhead, the operations really. You've possibly got a clinical manager on there who's really looking at the hygiene, the dental assistants.   Then you've got probably a dentist on the board who's making decisions as far as what are the clinical diagnoses, what are the supplies that all dentists need across the board. And then you're probably gonna have somebody who's your finance person. So someone really looking at the financials of the practice. And if you can have one of those key players, I feel like just get that honed in. Then you can have all the practices have their own like little leadership teams and whatnot.   But really you've got those four players who can make very strong decisions. And maybe the dentist is the same person as the clinical lead. Maybe that we don't need an extra person there, maybe not. But I think if you can really get that dialed in, you're going to be able to make a lot stronger decisions and be able to move things forward more. Britt, what are you seeing? Like you were literally just in DSOs. Are you finding that that type of structure helps move things along? Or are you finding like, no, we need to have key leaders in other areas?   Wha what's kind of your take on how to make sure decisions can be made? Because I truly feel like once you get the the KPIs dialed in and everyone's reporting in, once you get your office managers looking at their practices, making sure they're profitable and reporting in, then you got your culture and your brand, it's really about getting decisions made quickly and moving things along rather than getting stagnated with so many opinions.   speaker-1 (11:20) Mm-hmm. And I am big on agreed. You've got to figure out who are your key players, what leadership team do you need in place. I am in big support of having someone who's a strong regional manager in place to help make a lot of those kind of smaller decisions for offices, the offices need support on and empowering office managers to make decision decisions within the balance that you give them.   I think the more you expose your office managers and teach them some of the business side to where they really know what those KPIs are, they really know what they're watching, they know how to influence it, you'll become more confident in their decision making as they see things at a kind of higher level, a bigger picture. but when they can have that information, know how to see it from a little bit higher level, start giving them   the the opportunity to make decisions within their practice. So one, they can kind of see the fun and feel empowered to where they really can run that team and own that office. and they don't feel like they're just kind of sitting waiting for people to tell them what to do. and then that they've got a really strong regional behind them who also has the ability to make decisions within the parameters that if it's partners or owner gives them.   to keep moving things forward and same thing. It's a super empowering thing to where they can get more creative and think of o opportunities for the practices than just feeling like they need to wait because they can't make a decision or do anything because someone's not gonna approve of it.   speaker-0 (12:47) And I really love that you talked about having that regional manager understand the business. I feel like in DSOs, you have to have somebody who understands the business and can think like a business owner. That way they can make decisions. Britt, what were some of the things that as you were basically their regional manager, you were in that DSO role? What were some of the things you felt helped? Because I I think I think sometimes business owners forget everything they've learned. So having somebody come through, it's almost like we've forgotten what business 101 is.   of what things we really need to teach them. What have you found that was maybe helpful for you, for your owners to teach you so you could be more successful in your role within that DSL?   speaker-1 (13:28) Sure. I think one of the first things is helping the office managers and regional managers understand what a PL is. Like, and it doesn't even have to be like the terms of this is a PL, but understanding, I like to relate it to it's just like at home if we have a budget, right? And what money do we have coming in, what things are we spending money in, and at the end, you know, what do we have left over? Just helping them understand not overall.   kind of equation of how the business runs and what are the different pieces within that that they can impact, which is ultimately how many patients we have, how much we treatment plan is truly our ultimate potential as an office. And then what we close, what we schedule, what we collect on, and then controlling our expenses, so then we can have a greater kind of profit left over at the end. So helping them understand that big picture and then helping them to understand within each of those little sections, which are   Then KPIs, what are the more like tangible things that we can track that impact that bigger equation to the business? And agreed, I think we don't realize how much we've learned along the way or people have taught us along the way, even myself kind of running through sometimes these KPIs when you haven't seen them before and you don't understand one, maybe where they come from, or two, why would we even track it? And three.   What could I even do to change that number? Like those are things you have to learn over time and someone's gotta gotta actually take the time to invest in teaching you.   speaker-0 (14:59) Which I I don't think people realize that PNL. When I first looked at a PL, I'm like, this looks like a straight up foreign language. Like I don't even know what ninety percent of this means. And so just imagine, if you will, if you've been running a business, you've been looking at PNLs, pretend you were just plunked into like for me, I do not speak Chinese. So being stuck in a class speaking Chinese and them handing me a report and saying, Kiera, you need to be able to read this and figure it out and tell me what I should do with my business.   I would literally look at that and want to cry. And then I'd probably take a picture with my phone and I'd start Googling and I'd hope and pray I could find some type of Google Translate to figure it out. That like I feel is a good way for you to really understand like what it feels like to be those team members when they first start looking at PL. So I think one of the best ways is just practice. and what I've done is like Britt said, is really just   Sit with your regional. Also, you can do this with your office managers, especially in DSOs, because the more your office managers understand the PL and what it should look like, that can help. So it's really just dial into that. tell them what a healthy payroll like payroll should be sitting at less than 30% of our total collections every month. Our lab should be at less than 9% of our total collections every month, supplies 5%, and just go down the list with them so they can see is this good or is this bad?   I love HDA accounting. I think they do a great job. Profy is another one. I'd Bailey is another one. those are just some some accounting companies. I like when they send the P and L because it's red and green. Like HDA is like you get a thumbs up or you get a thumbs down. Makes it a little bit easier. But then asking your regional or your managers to say, Hey, when you look at this P N L, what do you see that's going really, really well? And what do you see are some of the areas that might be trouble areas and why? Because I feel like when you can start to almost   quiz them and role play with them and have more of a collaboration with them, they start reading that PL and figuring it out rather than you always telling them. But like Britt said, you've got to take the time and invest with them. That way they can look at a PNL. I know Shelbi's been doing RPLs. She sends it to me every week and finally I said, Shelbs, what do you see on this? And that was the first time she'd really looked at it. Sha I just had an assignment for her to send them to me every week, which she does great. But then I started asking her to look at them and then we start diving into it and looking at different numbers.   And it's crazy how when you just spend a little bit of time, people can really start to find things that you as the owner might even be missing. And then they can take the accountability and the ownership of it. But just realize like it is a completely foreign language for these poor people. Let's not forget to train them and educate them so they can be set up for success.   speaker-1 (17:38) Mm-hmm, for sure. And I think also when it comes down to it, when you start looking at some of these numbers and you haven't looked at it before, so even office managers, when they look at it and they haven't seen it or regionals, they're gonna start to understand and like it it's fun in in a way to see their eyes kind of open to like, I understand why like I really want to be able to hire an additional team member, but here's where we are, so it makes sense now why now's not the time to hire.   And we need to work on some other things so we can afford to hire another team.   speaker-0 (18:10) Exactly. And then you're no longer as the business owner, the bad guy or the good guy. When your regional says, Hey, I want to hire, you say, Prime, can we afford this? What does the PNL say? And they then are the ones who are answering the question rather than you being like giving the green light or giving the thumbs down. And then they are more again a partner with you. Britt, as a regional, and I'll give my insights of how it felt for me, how does that make you feel when you can as a regional start making those business decisions and truly be like a trusted   side partner where you're like really, really informed in the business. How does that make you as the regional manager, you as the manager, the practice like, what do you feel like when you feel that competent reading PNLs and understanding the business?   speaker-1 (18:54) I loved it. I loved it for one of the biggest reasons is because I'm in a practice, especially as OM, like I'm in a practice every day and can see what I have and what I need and what's actually going on like as close to the ground as possible. So when it's something like this, we're like driving numbers in a certain direction, I'm like, all right, I can see multiple things kind of in the puzzle that I can start to manipulate or impact.   to be able to drive those numbers, drive the results, or if it's like, hey, we want to get new technology, what do we need to do to get there? Great, we want another ITero. Here's a plan of how we can afford to get that new piece of equipment.   speaker-0 (19:33) Exactly. And it it feels so good. Like for me, it just felt like the I like to win. And I felt like it was finally my my roadmap to being able to be successful and and hit the goals that my doctor had, but literally have like the optics, if you will, for success. And so I think it's super paramount of teaching your team members and empowering them. Like even as team members, I know Tiff, Britt, Shelbi, like our whole team. They'll look like, Kiera, can we actually afford that?   That is like one of the happiest days of all of my business time because I'm like, they're actually looking to see, can we afford that? Can we do this? Does this make sense for the business? And it's not me just carrying the weight anymore. So I feel like it's really important for for offices, especially DSOs. Like I would say if we were to recap this and Britt, it's fun that you just came in off of DSO. So I thought, like, hey, let's dive into DSO success of one.   Like set up your KPIs. Make sure you've got all practices reporting in and they understand and like truly spend the time to teach your office managers at each practice what those KPIs need to look like, how to get the information, and then have a set cadence where they're really reporting in with you. The next thing is like build up that leadership team within the DSO of the strong people that can actually make the decisions and they have the autonomy and the authority to execute. And then third, train the team members to really look at these PL so they understand.   Before all that we did talk about like having the standardization of culture, the name, making sure those things run the same. And I feel like within DSOs, you are way, way, way more needed to be structured and to over-communicate than you are in solo or even secondary practices. Like the type of communication, the amount of communication, the amount of I would say like rules with massive air quotes. Like people just need to know the guidelines of what we can or can't do, and they've gotta be black and white. That's kind of like my recap of everything we talked about, Britt.   Of like DSO success, but is there anything I may have missed or things you want to just highlight on your own that you feel really really makes or breaks a DSO from your perspective?   speaker-1 (21:35) I think those are all key pieces that ultimately build to like there's no one or three people at the top that depending on how big you get, right? They can be responsible for making all decisions. So a lot of it is making sure you've got that flywheel of culture going to where you don't have to put so much effort into controlling it. And then you've got key people and support so that the people kinda at the top or the the OGs, the originals who kind of started it.   that you build in support for yourself and you're not having having to make all of those decisions for everybody.   speaker-0 (22:10) Think that that's actually one of the like key pieces that I hadn't even realized is this allows more freedom of those visionaries to go and make decisions, but have a team that can also make decisions and think like that visionary more so. So, like, and to be honest, a lot of people get excited about going and buying the practices that they forget. You need to have that foundation, those guidelines, those ways for people to make decisions without the OGs being there to answer everything. And if you don't have that in play.   Get that in play, hire a coach. That's what we do. We literally help offices get these things set up, things they might not have thought about. Be that mediator who can really remind, show, guide people to get things done. But make sure you have that in play as you're building, but or I would truly suggest before you do it. However, I know all visionaries just go and they buy the practice and then figure it out. So like it's cool. We we know you, we see you, but really getting that ability for people to be it have autonomy.   And so that way the owners don't have to always be making every decision. I think one just empowers everyone and two, it's an easier flowing process for sure.   speaker-1 (23:16) Mm. Absolutely.   speaker-0 (23:17) So guys, there you go. There's Road Warrior Britt coming back in off of a DSO week. We love our DSO practices. But really, I just thought it'd be fun for us to highlight today of what are some of the the key sticks success for DSOs. And Britt, I know you came from a very successful DSO before joining Dental A Team. And so I feel like you just have such a knack for it. And offices who work with you, shoot. You got some of the most raving reviews from the offices you were with. Like I got personal text messages from those doctors thanking you for being there and how much   you're able to clarify. So Britt, kudos to you. it's fun to have you share on DSO secrets and success.   speaker-1 (23:53) Thanks. I do love my D SOs.   speaker-0 (23:56) They're just fun. Britt and I giggle were like, we loved our our new practices, but man, those DSOs, they're like puzzles for us to have to try and figure out, put together. Britt and I will collaborate on these all the time, and it's so fun for those DSOs.   Kiera Dent (24:12) I hope you all loved today's episode as much as I did. It is crazy to think that this many episodes have been released since we started the Dental A Team Podcast. And I started looking to say, my goodness, our listeners need to be reminded of some of the things they may have learned a year ago or two years ago or five years ago, because so many things in our practices weren't relevant back then when we heard them, but they are relevant today. And I would be doing you a huge disservice if I didn't re-release some of these episodes for you to remember, to refine.   to optimize and really truly if you ever need a topic or you're like, my gosh, I wonder if the Dental A Team has anything like this, go onto our website, TheDentalATeam.com, click on our podcast tab and you can literally search any topic. So whether it's overhead or hiring or firing or team morale or engagement or case acceptance or hygiene or associate onboarding or whatever it is, we have so many episodes for you. And so I am going to intentionally be   re-releasing some of the top best episodes for you, pulling back some of the ones that I needed to remember, some of the things that I feel for you to really, really relearn right now and to re-remember, or if it's the first time, welcome. I'm so happy you're listening to it, but I hope you truly enjoyed today's episode. I hope that you share this with somebody. I hope that you go and implement today because we only have one day. We only get today. And so making today the best that it possibly can be. If we can help you in any way, shape or form, reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com.   And as always, thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Tiff and Nikki share how a hands-on operator can become a strategic owner, and at the same time set the team up for success. By sharing responsibilities and establishing clear systems, your practice's culture, business, and team can blossom in unexpected ways. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:01) Hello Dental A Team listeners. We are back with you today and to share some really fun things. I have Nikki here with me today. I love nothing more than podcasting with the other consultants on our team. And Nikki is a favorite, a fan favorite, and a Dental A Team   Nikki Mack (00:17) Yeah.   Tiffanie (00:18) favorite. Nikki, thank you so much for being here this morning for us and whatever time of day the listeners are listening. How are you today, Nikki?   Nikki Mack (00:26) I am good. I'm excited to be back too. I this has become one of my favorite parts of Dental A Team. and especially when I hear from doctors and listeners, my gosh, I heard you yesterday on the podcast. And it's fun to know that like while I get to have a good time with you, this really matters and it helps our listeners. So happy to be   Tiffanie (00:44) I love that.   Nikki Mack (00:45) here.   Tiffanie (00:46) I love that you walked into an office not that long ago and they said, my gosh, I just listened to you. I think it was that morning, right? You had a doctor that had said that.   Nikki Mack (00:52) Yeah. On   their way into the practice. So that was a how do you follow up yourself? Like that was a that's a tough act. Yeah.   Tiffanie (00:59) Yeah. Yeah. I gotta do a whole meeting. This is wild. I   love it. Yes, we have definitely built a cult following here and we love it. I know you actually you are working with an office who is one of our biggest podcast fans of all time. and it's a husband and wife duo and I won't say who they are, they know who they are because they're listening and she is just   one of the most amazing people I've ever met in my life. She's so sweet. And I am hoping that they're coming to the Masterminds as well. I'm pretty sure that they are. but I will be excited to see them. I know that's a podcast family for you as well. And it just makes it super fun and it kind of makes us feel like, okay, cool, they know me. And so it gives us an outlet and an opportunity for you listeners and you practices who work with us, practices who will work with us in the future. It gives us an opportunity to showcase who we are.   So that you and your teams kind of have an idea before we get to you, whether we're in office or whether we're virtual, just like this. And I think Nikki, you've experienced it now too. You've experienced both worlds, like going into practices obviously who've never heard us, and then going into practices who have heard us. And I think both of us can agree that those practices where the doctors love the podcast, have maybe found us through the podcast or or listen to it and then share it with their teams, those teams are like   almost a step ahead already. Their brains are ready, they're in that growth mindset and they really understand the angles that we come at consulting from. And I think that it really just helps us give that give that like extra footing to make progress. Do you feel the same, Nikki?   Nikki Mack (02:44) Absolutely, I agree. I think we've talked about this, I feel like in a previous podcast. I think in dentistry, fit matters so much, you know, that our team is the right fit, our patients are the right fit. And I think when it comes to consulting, you need to make sure that they're the right fit for your goals and your vision. and our podcast is just a nice way for listeners to, like you said, really get an understanding of who we are and and how we operate, you know, kind of what we're about. And so you really enter the relationship.   a step ahead 'cause we're like, okay, I know this, especially when they've seen us specifically, they already know what they're in for with me. So it's a pretty good start to the ride together for sure.   Tiffanie (03:25) I agree. I think one of my favorite pieces of you in general, but of our c whole consulting team, is that how we show up is like who we are. We don't really show up any differently. I might become a little peppier on stage. People will see   Nikki Mack (03:38) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (03:39) that than my normal everyday life. I might talk a little bit more. Erin probably disagrees, my fiance, but I think I talk a little bit more at work than I do at home. but no matter what, like our personality shines through and we are who we are. So then   practices, doctors, people, teams, they do know what to expect. And today I wanted to chat through some aspects and some different ways that we can pull doctor, we'll call it out of the weeds, right? Practice owners out of the weeds. And I think this is actually a huge segue into that because I think sharing your goals, dreams, aspirations, and sharing the things that are helping you feel connected to dentistry or your business or   your systems, things that you've learned that you want to implement, or just really you're like, gosh, I really love these ladies' personalities and I want like some semblance of that kind of culture in my practice. So taking things like this and sharing it with your team is really a great way, Nikki, I think to step that first foot into pulling themselves out of the weeds of being like the one, right?   The one that has to make all the changes, the one that has to make all the decisions, and really just like totally in the weeds of the business, the dentistry, the HR, the people, the team, that like all of the pieces and they're trying to hold all this together, but sharing that I know in our company is specifically with the consultants, we share constantly, we share different things we've heard or listened to or   different podcasters or books, things like that, because it helps to build our culture and helps to keep us closer together. So with that, Nikki, what do you feel like what would that do for a practice or how do you think that it helps a doctor to pull themselves out of the weeds when they do share different things like that? Whether it's this podcast, a different one, could be completely non-dental. How do you think that helps them to set their team up for success to be able to pull out?   Nikki Mack (05:38) Yeah, I think sometimes we get so caught up in that leadership position with our team that we think it's just office focused, you know, making them a better dental assistant or a better office manager or better treatment coordinator. But I think when you look back on some of your best jobs and experiences and cultures, it's where they also work to help develop you as a person. And that's where I think some of these come into play. a lot of these books and podcasts and   Things that even we talk about sometimes I've never heard of them. You know, I'm like, my gosh. And then it's on my regular rotation, a favorite. So the same can be said for your team members. They may not even realize some of these resources are there. And when you share that with them, it creates a different type of connection. like you said, it helps them understand. Like, if I'm like, my gosh, this is my favorite podcast, here's what I took from it today, it helps you relate to them.   And then sometimes it just gives those pieces and it's like, wow, okay, we really are working for this goal, right? We really are trying to get to the next level. And I love things I get at work that I can apply to my personal life because there's a lot. It happens a lot.   Tiffanie (06:45) Mm-hmm.   I agree. And I think too, as you're speaking, I'm thinking of how like different people hear things differently, right? So one podcast, I might hear a certain message and it might be there. You might hear that message too, but you might hear it in a different angle or from a different perspective or apply it differently. And per position too, a dentist and a business owner might hear a marketing podcast and think overarching marketing and like how do we do all of these pieces?   And then you pass it along to a treatment coordinator or an office manager and they're like, cool, I could apply it in this way with my verbiage to my patients. And so like wherever we're sitting, we get to spin it for that perspective and how it's gonna suit us the best. And I think that that makes a massive difference. And pulling ourselves out of the weeds, well, and right there, right? Sending it to an office manager or treatment coordinator, it's like, who is your team? Right? Who are the people that you count on?   at your practice, at your business, who are the people boots on the ground who are there supporting you. And how can you allow them to support you in your journey and be that show up as that leader? You said Nikki, like the leaders in the practice. And sometimes I think doctors silo themselves and think they have to be the one or they have to do it all. But farming some of that responsibility out to the leaders within the practice or the count it on   team members, I think Nikki, you've got a couple teams that are like a handful of people, right? We've got like seven, eight team members.   Nikki Mack (08:16) Yeah.   Tiffanie (08:16) You might not have a leadership team, right? Because like you got seven people, what are you going to do? Pull full four departments up and now they're managing each person's managing one person. So you might not have that full leadership team, but how are these people countable, right? How are you counting on them? And how can you share that culture and that experience and ideas with them?   Nikki Mack (08:40) Yeah. Well, and I think a key thing that we forget a lot, especially as leaders in a practice, sometimes our systems systems are   Tiffanie (08:49) Mm.   Nikki Mack (08:50) created or adapted because of an outlying like thing going on in the practice. We're short staffed, someone's out on leave, right? These things that are going on. But a lot of times we get ourselves in the habit of never shifting back or never reevaluating. So when we get   really stuck in those weeds, I think what happens is that allows us to have these not bad systems, but just they're not efficient, right? They're the things that really bog us down or make us feel really exhausted at the end of the day, but we don't have the opportunity to step back and say, could this be done differently? What should I do? Then when we take that moment, get ourselves out of those weeds, and it's like, my gosh, I not only do I not have to own this, it's better if I don't. There's someone on my team   that's better qualified for it, that should handle that and run in a sense that interference. And it's relearning ourselves how to redirect those people or those issues or those tasks. And then also that's when we have to kind of retrain our team. That's where the leadership comes out, that we are able to say, hey, I can see this clearly and I'm confident that this is a better direction. Here's how we execute it, right? And hold them accountable to it. Don't just take it back on because you're used to it.   but sometimes it takes something, a podcast or a book or a conversation to have that aha moment and realize, this is really like kind of slogging my day down. I shouldn't own this. This could be done better. So having that opportunity to see it through different eyes, it can change so much.   Tiffanie (10:28) I agree. I agree. And I do have practices as they were say saying all this, I'm thinking, how many times have we been asked how do I need to pay them for this to listen to this thing or learn this thing? And we've got our online courses that a lot of practices utilize and we get asked that a lot. Like that's totally up to you guys. We don't have a say in that. but they you know, or practices that say they send it and they don't listen to it, right? And so they're just like beaten down and they start to feel   upset by it or hammered down and like why do I even bother? Do I have the right people? And I think Nikki within that is more of an expectation. And what that leads me to is what is the expectation of each position? And then what's the expectation of that person within that position? So do we have job descriptions? I know we talk about these a lot. We talk about them   Nikki Mack (11:19) Yeah.   Tiffanie (11:20) a lot because they really, really matter. Clarity is everything. Clarity is everything in life. In a world of chaos and a sea of crazy   If we can bring clarity to something, why wouldn't we? Right? It seems wild to say, meh, I just don't feel like it when we could bring some clarity. So if there's clarity to these positions, these these team members know this position means this thing. This is what I do, this is how I show up, these are the tasks that I do. But really a job description is how do I present myself within this seat? How does this seat show up for this practice and what are the goals within that?   So then layering in those expectations too of that personal development. Like, is it built into your culture? And did you do it without seeing why you're doing it? Right? Did you send the podcast like, hey, take a listen to this? You might enjoy it. And they're like, okay, cool. Maybe one day, right? It's on the back burner. This thing is more important. Or did you say, hey, I love growing and learning? And I truly want that to be an aspirational part of our culture.   in our community here at this practice. So from time to time, I might send you little tidbits. I'm gonna tell you why, like what my favorite takeaway was, why I think it's relevant to you, to your position, to your life, if you'll take a listen or read it, right? You can sign up for newsletters, send them a newsletter, send them the Dental A Team newsletter, like whatever that might be, but did you have a description of how they're supposed to show up so that when they see this thing come through, they're like, cool.   That could help me with my team member one on ones. Like I have to do my doc's asking me to do one on ones and I don't understand them yet. This podcast looks like it might help me with that. But not setting those expectations and just flippantly being like, Well, I've sent them the things. I've asked them to do book club with me and nobody wants to. Yeah, well, I'm not a dental nerd either. Like   Nikki Mack (13:17) Yeah.   Tiffanie (13:18) I love dentistry because of where it's gotten me in life. I think it's an amazing   amazing industry. and I I do love dentistry, but I'm not on my off hours listening to a ton of dental podcasts. I'm just not. There's a couple that are floating in there because I need the the continuing education I need to be relevant as well. But I love emotional intelligence. I love, you know, I I love listening to Andrew Huberman, right? And there's so many different things that even in those other podcasts are so applicable.   to business, to relationships, to dentistry, making sure that we figure out what is our style, what is our culture and what are the expectations and then setting those with people, I think make a massive difference, Nikki.   Nikki Mack (14:02) I agree. And I think this is where it comes down to. We talk a lot about I think strong leadership comes to knowing your team, right? And understanding   Tiffanie (14:09) Mm-hmm.   Nikki Mack (14:09) who you have with you and kind of what those desires or those goals are. I know in one practice that I managed, that was a part of our annual reviews. Like, what's a professional goal for you? And then like what's a personal goal? Because if there was anything we could do to kind of support that, and it also benefited the practice or their you know growth as a team member.   Absolutely, why wouldn't we? And then you kind of know how to approach it. So if you know that there's a tip who's less dental nerd, right, then some of that stuff, that's not who you send that podcast to. On the flip side, full disclosure, such a nerd. I did not do back office. All my teens have heard my spiel. I'll save it. It's our little internal secret. But man, do I love some of the nerdy stuff.   Brit and Dana and I actually got to attend a local event here in Arizona a few months ago and do some CE. And when we were comparing what courses we had signed up for, it was very much an aha moment for Brit to realize exactly the level of my nerdiness because I was like, Yeah, I can't wait to go listen to this. Like I just yeah, I I will pull a couple pearls and it will be amazing. and it actually was, and absolutely it was a little dry. Some people left, you know, this is what happens.   but that filled my bucket because it's it's your what motivates you, what drives you is what drives you, right? And then knowing that being able to tune into it is so important and it can sound overwhelming. I know someone is driving in their car right now thinking about, my gosh, now I have to personalize my podcast recommendations per team member. But I promise you it becomes so easy because when you lead with that type of style and you create that culture, this is not where I need you to calendar a task.   To look for podcasts for every team member. It's just gonna come organically and you're able to share those observations, share those pearls of wisdom. And that's how you get out of the weeds, right? We grow our team, we grow their abilities, and we are so aligned that that's what helps that clarity and that confidence because we're like one team, one dream, right? And we all know where that vision is. And this just helps to support it and and boost them up for sure.   Tiffanie (16:21) Yeah, I love that. And so then now we're working on that culture piece. We've got job descriptions clear, right? we've got our our culture piece really starting to fit. And I think that's where a lot of that trust comes into play. So then dentists and owners, they can say, Okay, I trust that this is going to happen. I trust that this team member does have my back. I have full support within them and I can give them this thing. So then we start trial and erroring it. And it's not to say   they didn't listen to the podcast. I can't, I can't give them something. I can't delegate. Like, no,   Nikki Mack (16:55) Right.   Tiffanie (16:56) just be realistic, right? What can you delegate over to them and like dip your toe in that water? Clear expectations on everything. So clear job descriptions, clarity around what does your culture need to look like, clear clarity around your goals, and then start delegating things off that you don't have to do. We like to say any tasks that don't require your brain.   Anything that somebody could do at 80% their level that could look very similar to what you want it to be, it might not be a hundred percent. Their hundred percent might be your eighty percent. but is that okay for this task? Start delegating those things off because that's how you get out of the weeds. Your clarity, your culture, and your delegation are how you get out of those weeds and then having that feedback system. And I think Nikki, within that, like you mentioned goals. I love a good three, five, ten year goal.   not easy to sit down and be like, what do I want in three years? What I want in 10 years. Like do some prompts, ask us, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Like we're more than happy to help you dig into what those need to look like to work backwards. But when you have that vision, you have that goal, you know where you're going. Same with your culture. You know what you want your culture to look like. Now it's something that we can create. It's something that we can do together to reach those goals and get you pulled out of the weeds.   You talked, Nikki, about knowing the team members. And I think something that we've done really well with the Dental A team is as a virtual company, we've done a lot of like one-on-one time but group time at the same time. We have a lot of meetings. I I think there are companies that have more than us, but we do have a lot of meetings. But we do know each other. We get to know each other on a personal level. So like I was listening to a book the other day and I thought, my gosh, Christy.   Absolutely nothing to do with dentistry, not business, just like the idea, the premise of it was what you believe to be true will be true, right? Hands down, I believe that. And I thought, my gosh, Christy's gonna love this. So I send it to her, and within 30 seconds, she's like, I had an Audible credit, it's downloading right now. Thank you so much. Like, but I knew   Nikki Mack (19:06) Yeah.   Tiffanie (19:08) that was Christy, right? And I know.   Sometimes I'll pop something into the consultant chat that I'm like, hey ladies, this is actually really cool for business or for marketing. Or I'll be like, Nikki, this made me think of you. Or it's my like TikTok Instagram real friend that I like sending all those things, right?   Nikki Mack (19:23) Ha ha ha.   Tiffanie (19:24) But spending that one-on-one time together and really knowing each other, and it's not long. Like we get two 30 minute slots a month that's one on one with each other.   That's all that it takes and paying attention to one another on meetings and during different tasks, during different things, just paying attention to those pieces and who a person is really gives you key insights to what that could look like when you're sending something along like that. And Nikki, how do you see that? Like how can a dentist step back enough to see the people to be able to to see how can they create that culture to again get out of the weeds?   Nikki Mack (20:04) And I think some of it comes to the time that we dedicate to that culture, right? You   Tiffanie (20:09) Right.   Nikki Mack (20:09) know, do we have a morning huddle? do we check in with our team members? Do we have our one-on-ones? And if the doctor's not having it, does the OM check in with the doctor, right? On those one on ones? What's that kind of communication piece? How do we close that circle? Because it is those like random moments, those passing by. docs usually know so much about their DA because the things that'll   Tiffanie (20:32) Mm.   Nikki Mack (20:32) come up, right?   in a chair working with a patient and just utilizing those and kind of capitalizing on it because that's where it's so funny when we talk about like getting out of the weeds but weeds are different for everyone too right like based on your skill set and kind of your interest. So as you as a practice owner or a leader are looking at your team or maybe looking at your tasks that you could possibly delegate. And like maybe you're sitting there right now like   This eats up a lot of my time. And you're right, someone else could do this at 80%. Like I need to   Tiffanie (21:04) Mm-hmm.   Nikki Mack (21:05) let it go. Let's be smart about who we let it go to and using what we know. If I have someone who is like camera shy, hates being in the reels, hates being in the videos, you know, it's like that's not their jam, but they come up with them. They see the good ones, they see that content and they're handy with like the cameras, with the apps, with the social media.   Maybe that's my social media person because they get to film the reels, right? Takes   Tiffanie (21:32) Mm.   Nikki Mack (21:32) all the pressure off of them and they can just excel, plan for when we're gonna film them. And then I as an owner, I don't have to think about it, right? Because I've got things I could do differently. Same when it comes to some of our patient relationships or you know our strategic efforts. Who do I have that that they would own? It wouldn't be weeds for them. And then I can take it off of the plate. Who is? So it's super important to understand who you have.   And people show you who they are every day, the way we work together, the way we chat when we make our coffee before Huddle, you know, all of those kind   Tiffanie (22:05) Yeah.   Nikki Mack (22:06) of little opportunities. we just have to listen and kind of act on it. And also, I say this to doctors all the time ask. Just ask. Sometimes I'm   Tiffanie (22:16) Hm. I agree.   Nikki Mack (22:18) guilty of it myself in the past. I would be like, gosh, I don't know if Yara would actually be into this. Like, I think so.   And you you spend all this time like going back and forth on your mind because you feel like you should just know. But guess what? Like just go ask. Never has an employee been like, I can't believe the doctor asked how I feel about this. Why didn't they just know? Are you kidding? The ask is such a trust builder. So if we're not sure, ask. Ask a question. It's okay. Because clear is kind, right? And making sure that we know where we're coming from. That's what gives us the confidence as the leader to pass this on, to have clear expectations.   and   then have the appropriate follow-up because that's how it all ties together. For myself, one of the things I love about Dental A Team so much is that we don't just work with the doctor or the practice owner. We really do be have that opportunity to spend time with the team as well and making sure that everyone understands that full circle piece. My favorite thing is to remind them that like I am here to help keep you accountable. So we're not going to forget about this in two weeks. This is something we're going to give a real try.   real follow up and then have real conversations about how it's helping us. And that's a real benefit to finding the things that stick and being able to execute not just for the first couple of weeks. So   Tiffanie (23:35) I completely agree. I think that was a beautiful wrap. And if I had to pull action items out of what you just said, I hope doctors and listeners, you heard them as well. Job descriptions, clear as kind. Morning huddles, make sure that you're communicating every day on some level. And monthly one-on-ones. And I heard the other day they were called feedback sessions, and I really loved that. I was listening to a podcast,   Nikki Mack (23:59) I love that.   Tiffanie (24:00) non dental.   and she said that she called them feedback sessions and it was a feedback loop. It was how are you doing? How are we doing as a company? What are you loving? What are you hating? What's making your life difficult? Like what are blockers? And do you have any feedback from me as your lead? And I loved that because on a monthly basis that is way easier. Yearly reviews. I hate when offices wait till the yearly 'cause that's tied to a metric and like we're not a corporate we're not Wells Fargo. Like   Have a monthly one-on-one. So if I were to pull action items, it would be clear as kind, get those job descriptions, get those morning huddles in place. If they are in place, what can you do to spice them up a little bit this week? And where are your monthly one-on-ones? Where are you getting to know each team member individually, whether it's you or their office manager? And then I think my last piece would be really look at the things that you're doing every day, maybe journal. Like just every time you do something, write it down and go through and highlight what do you s what do you have to do?   And then what are some things that you could delegate off and then how will you do that? Nikki, this is a beautiful podcast. Thank you so much for spending your time with me today. I appreciate you. And I just love the joy that you're bringing to so many practices. Thank you for what you do.   Nikki Mack (25:12) Yeah, thanks for having me. I love it.   Tiffanie (25:14) Of course, of course. All right, listeners, you know what to do. Go leave us a five-star review. Let us know how you enjoyed today's podcast and who you'll be sending it to. Go send it to somebody. Like legitimately, you guys know other owners. You guys know people who need to hear this same message. You are not alone, and neither are they. Make sure that they know that. So go send this podcast to someone. And as always, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, and we'll catch you next time. Bye guys.

美國非農就業意外轉弱、CPI 符合預期，市場升息疑慮快速降溫，帶動美股、台股與半導體迎來一波強勁反彈！不過，當市場從「漲價題材」轉向大型權值股，這波反彈是否也透露 AI 行情正進入新的階段？ 本集邀請研究副總監 Vivianna 與研究員 Ralice 從美國就業與通膨數據出發，拆解勞動市場是否真的轉弱，以及後續 PCE、非農基準修訂的觀察重點；並進一步解析台股、半導體近一波報復性反彈背後的資金和產業訊號。最後回到 Q2 美股財報，從科技巨頭、CSP 到半導體供應鏈的獲利上修差異，觀察下一階段市場真正願意給估值的公司會是誰！

Jennie Nash hosts a #amwriting podcast BookLab with guest Kathleen Barber, author of Truth Be Told and newly released Sisterhood Above All (co-written with Amayah Shaienne), and discusses Barber's range across thrillers and romance, her character-first approach, and how RushTok inspired an authentic sorority-rush thriller featuring Madison, Shay, and Ava as tensions escalate and someone dies. They define RushTok as viral TikTok coverage of University of Alabama sorority recruitment and note its broad international fascination. In the BookLab, they evaluate three first-page submissions by asking “Would we turn the page?” They praise Heather's Trust Me for strong voice, vivid Austin setting, and an intriguing problem hook, with minor notes about genre context. They decline Odeon Omega due to unearned logistics and too much dialogue despite an intriguing title/advert. They find Empty Spaces compellingly written but confusing from too many names and unclear stakes, suggesting more interiority and clarity.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Connect with KathleenVisit Kathleen's website to find her books and more: https://www.kathleenbarber.comTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a book lab session where we answer the most important question about your first pages.Would we pick up the book? Would we turn the page? Today, I have a really special guest with me. I have Kathleen Barber here, who is so many things. She's the author of Truth Be Told, which was adapted as a series on Apple TV, Follow Me, Both Things Are True, and just brand new, like it came out four days ago, Sisterhood Above All, with, I'm gonna try her name, Amaya Chen?How do you-Barbara: Yeah. Uh, um, yeah. That's, that's very close. I think it's Amaya Chen.Jennie: Okay. Yeah. Uh, so we're gonna hear about that in a minute. Um, I haven't, I haven't cracked it open yet, but I'm so [00:01:00] excited for it. Um, Kathleen's also an Author Accelerator certified book coach and a former attorney, and she lives in Washington, DC with her family.So welcome, Kathleen.Barbara: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.Jennie: So I watched your unboxing the other day. It was so fun, and I didn't realize that we had scheduled this right on top of, like the actual- Oh ... launch of your book.Barbara: No, that, that's okay. It's, it's great. Um, it gives me something to think about that's not just, like, spiraling.Like, is anybody gonna read my book? Is anybody gonna like it? Um, so it gives me something else to focus on.Jennie: Well, it's so interesting you say that because I think of you as this really seasoned pro and, you know, it's been really interesting for me to watch your career because you've written some really different kinds of books.You did a ... Well, your first book was obviously a big thriller and a huge success, and at one point, you pivoted to romance, and now you're doing ... Well, I, I saw that book list [00:02:00] called Sisterhood Above All, a soapy thriller Yes. Yes ... which is such a great description, and you did it with a collaborator. So you just seem interested in story to me.Barbara: I, I am. Yeah. I'm always very ... I always start a story with the characters. Um, and so then their story kind of spirals out from there. Um, yeah, so I, my last book that came out before this one was, was a rom-com. Um, and I was really nervous when I started writing it. I was like, “How am I going to write this when I've been writing suspense and thrillers before?”And it turns out that, like, at the heart of it, stories are stories, and people are people, and, you know, in a romance, happy things happen. In a thriller, bad things happen, but things still happen.Jennie: Amazing. So give us the overview of the brand new book, ‘cause it's, it's really juicy.Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, so I'm really excited about it.Um, Sisterhood Above All is a thriller set during sorority rush, and so it follows three different [00:03:00] women who are involved there. There's Madison, who is the president of what's she perceives as to be the coolest sorority on campus, so she's kind of the gatekeeper, and there's Shay, who is the president of a rival sorority and trying to shake, shake up the Greek institutions, and then there's Ava, who is a potential new member.She's going through rush. She's desperate to join Madison's sorority, um, and she might be a little too desperate. Uh, so you know, it's a thriller. Bad things happen. Somebody dies, um, you know, and things kind of spiral out, spiral out of control.Jennie: But tell us about the collaboration, ‘cause it's- Yeah ... so interesting how that came about and how it went and-Barbara: Yeah.You know, it was, it was a lot of fun. Um, I, like many writers, write alone, and I had never really considered collaborating with anybody before, um, but- But when I was kind of talking about this, I, I'd been pitching my agent a sorority themed thriller for a while. [00:04:00] Um, and at one point when, when Rush Talk was getting really big a couple summers ago, she was like, “This is the moment.This, you should write this book, but I think that in order to make it feel more authentic, we should bring in somebody who's living this in this moment.” Um, so one of her colleagues found Amaya, who, um, was up until very, very recently an active member of a sorority at the University of Alabama, and brought us together.And Amaya and I got along right away, and we both had kind of the same vision for what we wanted the book to be, and so collaborating with her was, was a lot of fun in a way that I had been nervous that it wouldn't be. But it was, it was a really good time, and I'm really, really proud of the book.Jennie: So for those who don't know or weren't following, can you tell us what Rush Talk-Barbara: YeahwasJennie: or isBarbara: or- Yeah ... shall be? Yes, yes, yes. So, um, so if you're gonna join a sorority, um, you go through, you go through recruitment and which is very slangily [00:05:00] called rush. Um, and so on TikTok a few years ago, um, people started sharing about their experiences during sorority rush, but specifically, uh, during sorority rush at the University of Alabama.Um, and it really took on a life of its own, like people were watching it like it was, you know, a television program. Uh, they made a documentary about it, which, you know, I'll, I will let you make your own conclusions about the documentary. Um, but people just got really, really into it, and people... And it was kind of appealing to people who had gone through sorority rush at some point, were thinking about going through a sorority rush, or who were just invested in, you know, watching people have these kind of outlandish experiences and, and share them.So, um, itJennie: was a lot of fun. My understanding was that it got very, very popular in other countries?Barbara: I- it's definitely... [00:06:00] Yeah. You know, um- So sorority, some, some sororities are international. Not, not all of them are. Um, but by and large, when they say international, they mean that there are chapters in Canada, not that, like, there are chapters in, you know, like Europe or, or other countries.And so it just, it's something that is so unique and so, like, uniquely about, like, this type of college experience that I think it's been really interesting to people in lots of different places.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. So obviously the book has been out, like, mere hours here. But, um, how does it feel? Are you, are you- It's excitingyou said you were excited and proud and- SoBarbara: exciting. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm really, really proud of the book. I love it. I mean, I know everybody, like, loves their own books, but I do. I truly, like, love this book, and I just really hope that the readers do too.Jennie: You know, it's not true that everybody loves their book.I, I was dying to have somebody on the podcast who will never come on the podcast. But I- Yeah ... I heard a story about somebody who [00:07:00] got a seven-figure deal for a book that they really didn't actually love, and then- Oh, no ... they, they wrote it. It came out, and then when they had to co- come time to do the publicity, they just dreaded it.They, it was like a, just they did it for the money. They got the money, and then didn't, didn't wanna talk about it, like felt sort of ashamed about it. And I was like, “Oh, please, come talk about that.” But of course they, they won't. So...Barbara: That's wild. Isn't that wild? That's wild. Yeah. I just, I just can't even imagine how that would feel.Um, I mean...Jennie: I know. Well, I, uh, the cover of this, um, of this new book, Sisterhood Above All, is- is really cool too. So we will link to it in the show notes, and everyone can go read it and check it out, and, um, Kathleen's other books, I've read them all, and you have such range and, um, like I said, [00:08:00] interesting stories.So with that, let's get to our, our Book Lab entries. We just always wanna start by thanking those who submitted. It's not easy to do this, to put your stuff out there with no context and no ability to talk back or anything and have random s- people on the internet, you know, talk about your stuff. So really appreciate the, the risk-taking of doing that, and we do this in order to help us all get better and, and learn, you know, what works and, and, um, for your own self or your own writing, what, what you want it to be.So what we're gonna do, as always, is I'm gonna read the entry, and then we're gonna ask ourselves, would we turn the page? So, um, the first entry is Fiction and it is, uh, author's name is [00:09:00] Heather and the name of the work is Trust Me. So here we goI can't tell you whether it's the Johnny Cash mural, clusters of candles nestled into every corner of the long stone bar, or the smoky scent of Palo Santo that tucks Austin into my head the first night. Maybe it's the unexpected jazz trio on a Tuesday in a town built for blues, country, and rock, or it could be the two cowboys deep in conversation at a table in the back of the bar.I'll later, I'll later learn that making a hot Austin guy a cowboy because of his hat, faded jeans, and scuffed boots is the same as labing- labeling a frat bro in a hoodie and sweats an athlete. It's just how they dress. I can tell you I like the looks of Austin men a hell of a lot better, especially that wide silver belt buckle that dresses up the whole package in a bow.It's going [00:10:00] on nine PM when I arrive at Whistlers in East Austin, and the bartender hands, hands me a peach-colored mezcal craft cocktail. Fresh juice, pungent herbs, and the smoky sister to tequila are the perfect salve after what's transpired since my flight landed from New York two hours earlier. I follow the snake tattoo on his foreha- forearm as the bartender shakes another cocktail for the couple next to me.Damn, he's hot, too. The crowd starts to pick up, and I signal Snake Tattoo for another before I lose his attention for good. The warm agave liquor spreads through my bones, and I start to relax. Maybe this isn't the disaster I think it is. Maybe I can actually pull it off. I glance around at the mostly twenty and thirty-something crowd angling for spots at the bar.The women wear short dresses and long hair. The men, well, those jeans are something, along with their finely cut biceps and well-placed tattoos. Can't help but glance over at those cowboys again and get a warm smile in [00:11:00] return. Easy, girl. Back to business. I have a problem, and this second mezcal is going to help me solve it.All right. What do you think? What was your first impression?Barbara: I really enjoyed that. I would definitely turn the page there. I, I feel like there was, like, a really strong sense of, sense of place, and I, in particular, I really enjoyed the, the first line, not only because it gives us that sense of place, but it, because it also then tells us something about the narrator and how she perceives the world around her in that first line.Jennie: Yeah, and, and there's a good m- a, a good question at hand here, which is what's she doing here?Barbara: Mm-hmm.Jennie: She's come from New York. We get that. It's a little unclear how, how old she is, ‘cause she's referencing other people's ages, but not her own, so we, we don't really know what's happening or what, what's, what's about.[00:12:00] Um, I mean, I thought the writ-Barbara: Well, IJennie: agree. Yeah. I thought the writing was great. It sort of tripped along-Barbara: Mm ...Jennie: um, nicely. IBarbara: like at the end where... I'm sorry. I didn't mean to step on you. No,Jennie: no, go. Yeah. I like atBarbara: the end, I like at the end where, um, she says she has a problem, and the second mezcal is gonna help her solve it.I thought that was really interesting, ‘cause I, it piqued my interest, made me wanna know what the problem is, but it's also kind of funny. Like, the mezcal's probably not gonna help you solve your problem, but it's like...Jennie: Yeah. No, it's so true. I was longing for a little bit more of a sense of what's happening here.I mean, this could be any kind of story at this point. It could be she could be a spy. She could be an assassin. She could be trying to get a guy back. Like, we, there's really no sense of what the story's gonna be. I always like that on the first page. What about you?Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree with you. I, it, it could, it could go in any direction.I kind of [00:13:00] sense from the tone that it's, you know, it's going to be something, uh- Well, I guess I don't know. You know, honestly. Now, now that I'm looking at it again and thinking about it, um, you're right, it could be... The, the problem that she has could be a thriller problem, or it could be a romantic problem, since she's kind of made, made comments about the different men.I think that was a hint to me that it might be a romantic problem that she's having, but I actually don't know.Jennie: Yeah. The, the- obviously she's clocking all the hot guys in this bar, which tells us something, either about her or what she's up to. We don't know. Um, but yeah, it's, um, really good detail, like the, you mentioned that first line, and I liked the line about her sh- the self-awareness about, you know, she calls him a cowboy and then she says, you know, sort of like, “Oh, right, that's not really fair.”Mm-hmm. “We don't know.” [00:14:00] You know, that, I thought that was, made me think- Yeah ... this character's gonna know themselves.Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree with that. I, I also really enjoyed the kind of specificity that she uses in the descriptions, like when she talks about, you know, the, the cocktail that she's drinking, and the tattoo on the bartender's arm.Like, I just felt like those details really made the story come alive for me. So that, like, even if I didn't exactly know where we were going, I could, I could picture where we were.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. That's really well said. Well, we like this. I think I would, I would turn the page.Barbara: I would, I would too, yeah. Mm-hmm.Jennie: We would turn the page. Um, I mean, the only notes I think for me would be, I mean, it's always so tricky, because if we were picking this book up, the title, Trust Me, doesn't really tell us anything, but the cover would.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: The vibe of the cover would. We'd have a little more context for where we were and [00:15:00] what this was about, and that would probably help with the issue that, that I have, which is, well, what kind of book is this?We don't know. Um, and you know, now that I'm thinking of it, we don't even know whe- where we are in time. Um, I'm, I'm assuming modern day, but I don't know why I assumed that. It, maybe it's not. So maybe just a tiny bit more of a sense of- Uh, context for the reader. Mm-hmm. But that's my only note. L- do you have any notes?Barbara: Yeah. You know, I honestly don't think that I, I have any additional notes. I mean, I, I really enjoyed this selection, and I would definitely keep reading here.Jennie: Well, Heather, that's high praise, soBarbara: Yeah, I, I usually have ideas. I usually have notes but I don't.Jennie: Yeah, that's, uh, that's g- a good one for us to start with, and very fun, I hope, for you to hear that from Kathleen.All right, let's [00:16:00] go to our, our next one. This is fiction. It's called Odeon Omega, um, and the author is ... Well, the, the, um, it's coming across as, um, Sound Smith, but who knows what that is? So, um, Odeon Omega, they will know who they are, for sure. All right, here we go. “The grand O-O opening continues all month long at your new entertainment destination, the one and only, first of its kind on this or any other coast, the all-new, all-excitement Odeon Omega.‘Gah!' Emmy shrieked from the bathroom. ‘You can turn the TV volume down now, Seth. We're done.' Seth was still lying in bed, his naked body mostly covered with Emmy's cream-colored, satiny soft sheets. He chuckled while reaching for the remote. ‘I wasn't the one who turned it up.' ‘I know that. I have to [00:17:00] turn the TV way up like that, though.It's the only way to drown out the neighbors. The walls in this place are so damn thin, and they're always banging on them, disturbing me when I'm trying to have sex.' ‘Those b******s,' Seth chuckled. ‘I'm saying, I like ... I'm saying, like, what am I supposed to do? Not f**k? Hey, that is so not an option,' Seth p- Seth pressed the mute button, then went back to lying on his back, his hands behind his head.Another noise startled him, this one coming from Emmy's phone. A toneless version of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun blared from Emmy's clutch purse. ‘Turn that off, too,' Emmy shouted from the bathroom. ‘That's my mother's ringtone. I don't feel like talking to her right now.' Seth rolled over to the nightstand and opened her clutch and found the button to silence Emmy's phone.He lingered on the image of Emmy's mother. ‘Wow, Emmy, you and your mom could pass for sisters, easy.' ‘Ew, don't tell me that,' Emmy said. ‘Tell her that, but not me. Bet you're already imagining yourself in a threesome with her and me, [00:18:00] aren't you?' ‘Huh, what's that?' Seth was distracted by Emmy's driver's license in the clutch's interior pocket.He slid it out of the pocket and read what he assumed was Emmy's birth name. ‘Myrtle? What? Your re- your real name is Myrtle?' Emmy stepped out of the bathroom, still naked from their lovemaking, with a sky blue-colored towel clenched between her legs.”That's a vibe.Barbara: It is. It is, yeah. I mean, opening, uh, opening in the aftermath of sex is a, is a bold choice. I'll be honest, I don't feel like I have very much context for what's happening here. Um, it seems like Emmy and Seth don't know each other veryJennie: well. I got that sense, too. I got that sense, too, and that the sex that she has this system for turning up the TV has been for other people.Barbara: Mm-hmm. [00:19:00] Yeah. On, on that note, though, I did kind of have, uh, a fundamental disbelief about the setup that was giving me a stumbling block when I was reading this, just because it didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me that she would turn up the television to distract herself from the neighbors, when I would think that that would be more distracting or, you know, just use music or...And I didn't really understand why she would be explaining it to him after the fact instead of in the moment. Um, that felt like it was perhaps just put there for the reader,Jennie: so that we could be distracted. Yeah, it was a little explainy, a little... Yeah, like a, um, we use that term info dump, and an info dump doesn't have to be a whole scene.It can just be a line like that where I, I didn't buy it either that she would actually say that to him now. Mm-hmm. If... He probably would've said, “Why are you turning the TV on?”Barbara: Right.Jennie: Earlier.Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, [00:20:00] yeah, and it seemed like that would be the conversation that would have before we got to this moment. So that was something that, that I struggled with a bit.Jennie: I also didn't believe, it felt like, uh, unearned that he's pulling this license out of her purse. I could see, I could see that he might have seen something on her phone if he's turning her phone off. But-Barbara: Mm-hmm ...Jennie: to, to actually then see... I kept, like I was trying to think through the logistics. Like, okay, see one of those little slidey things inside a purse, but you can't see- Mmthe driver's license. Like, why would he reach in and pull it out? It felt like the author wanted us to get to this moment where- Mm-hmm ... Seth got this information.Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah.Jennie: It, yeah, it felt unearned to me.Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree, especially because it doesn't seem like Seth knows her very well, obviously. Then for him to be [00:21:00] digging around in her clutch purse felt- Untrue to the situation, um, unless something else was going on that we don't hear about.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Um, this... When I said, like, “Well, this is a vibe,” this character has a, a tone or a style or sense about, like a sort of swagger about- Mm-hmm ... her that interests me. Um, I happen to be in the middle... I'm behind everybody else, but I'm in the middle of reading Yesteryear. Oh. Have you read-Barbara: Oh. Yes, yes.Jennie: Don't tell me what ha- I, I- Don't tell me ...Barbara: I w- I won't. I was also late to it, and everybody was trying to tell me about it, and I was just constantly walking around going, “No spoilers, no spoilers.” Yeah.Jennie: But the, that character has, has such a brashness- Mm-hmm ... of point of view and opinion in both, um, both parts of the story there, and there's something about this character that rem- reminds me of that.[00:22:00] There's like a, I don't know, um, a, just a brashness. S- And I, I've been enjoying that protagonist- Mm-hmm ... the Yesteryear protagonist, just ‘cause it's unusual. I've read a tiny bit, and I know people are saying, “Oh, she is so unlikable,” but there's just something of a character that's so owning their, um-Barbara: Mm-hmmJennie: way, and this woman's ownership of, of her sexuality, I guess, I, I thought was- Hmm ... interesting.Barbara: Yeah. No, I, I, I know what you mean, and I, I, I am intrigued by her as a character because, I mean, again, here she, she seems to have kind of an interesting setup in a, an apartment building that has thin walls, um, has this system of turning up her television, um, but not with Seth before.So, you know, it seems like she's had several partners back to this, this space. Um, but she seems very, very confident and, like you said, kind of swaggery [00:23:00] with him. Um, so yeah, I, I am intrigued to know more about, like, who she is and what makes her that way. Um...Jennie: Yeah. Uh, for me, probably not enough to turn the page.Um-Barbara: Not for, not for me either. I-Jennie: Yeah. And, and I have to say that the thing that intrigues me the most about this whole thing is that the title of this book is Odeon Omega, and that's the random, um- I think that's the random show on TVBarbara: Yeah,Jennie: the- Am I ma- am IBarbara: making that up? No, no, no, that, that, that's the first line.It's, um, it sounds like it's maybe like a commercial. I was kind of envisioning it from the way that it was spelled out as, you know, kind of like, uh, oh, the way that like a, a carnival or like a car salesman is like, “The grand o- o- opening.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that's kind of how I was envisioning it.Um, so I, I didn't, I did enjoy s- seeing that right up front, um, [00:24:00] but I wanted more context to understand what it was, because without that, I, I don't know what that line means. Um-Jennie: And that just the author's choice, like, okay, the TV's on f- for a random reason- Mm-hmm ... or for her systematic sex reason, and, and she's hearing this show opening, and then that's the title of the book.Like, something about this, I, I thought of it as a, yeah, like a carnival or a show or something- Mm-hmm ... a theme park, um, that there's g- that's gonna become central to the story. It's kind of an interesting way of putting that in in, and presumably- Mm ... it will come back, um- Yeah ... in an important way. But I, I was intrigued by that most of all, actually.Barbara: Yeah. No, same, especially because that's the moment that Emmy says, “Turn the volume down.” So I was, uh, so it made it seem, to me at least, that there was something about that particular advertisement that she [00:25:00] was reacting to, and I wanted to know what that was.Jennie: Well, that's a really great point, and I think if we were to give this writer some guidance- Um, it might be to make more of that.Mm. If the character reacts more to that. Like, in, you know, that she can't hear it or that it's upsets her in a particular way, or she gives us some information or context about that so that we, I don't know, I guess we need to be more grounded in, in what's happening.Barbara: Yeah. And I also just feel like that would give us a little bit more s- because it, that's right there in the title, so it's obviously gonna be important to the story.And so like that would give us a little bit of curiosity about what it is and would propel us to try and understand why she's reacting the way that she is. Um-Jennie: Yeah. And just from a technical [00:26:00] standpoint, I'm looking at this entry, it's almost all dialogue.Barbara: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Which I think is hard on a, an opening page.Uh, don't you? I think-Barbara: I, I do. I, I would really have liked to see a little bit more interiority from Emmy here to kind of, I don't know, understand how she feels, not only about that advertisement, but about, about Seth. Like, did she li- does she like Seth, or is he just like a guy, you know? Um, I just wanted to know a little bit more about how she, who I'm presuming is the protagonist, is experiencing this scene.Jennie: Yeah. Um, yeah, there was even a moment when I thought, “Is she selling sex?” Mm-hmm. Is, is that... Is she a sex worker? Um, you know- True ... so too many questions about what's, what's happening here, which I think could be solved by, um, balancing out the dialogue, um, w- with some other information. [00:27:00] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm, um, I'm hoping that this character gets a story that we want, we want to read ‘cause I'm intrigued.Barbara: Yeah. Same. Same.Jennie: Yeah. All right. We have one more that we're going to, um, read. Do you wanna read this one? From your little, “Oh, oh, oh,” opening- ... I was like, “Oh, maybe you're a good narrator. I'm not.”Barbara: Sure. Sure. I'll, I'll read it. Um, so this one is called Empty Spaces. Um, it's fiction. I'm not entirely certain who the author is, unless I'm missing that in the spreadsheet.It looks like perhaps it starts with a T. Um, but here, here is the submission. “April 1st, 1995. ‘Please, please, please,' Corey sputtered, gripping the black receiver with both hands while the operator relayed her [00:28:00] request. ‘Person-to-person call for Tess. Will you accept the charges?' ‘No, she's asleep.' Corey knew her mother was at the beige phone on the kitchen wall a thousand miles away.Then her father's voice in the background. ‘Honey, let the girl talk to her dau-...' And dial tone. Corey slammed the receiver back into its cradle. ‘What the f**k?' She missed. Her knuckles scraped the chrome holder, and she unleashed her fury on the edge of the black payphone. ‘F**k, f**k, f*****g f****r.' The rain that had been collecting in the roo- in the rim of the payphone box was shaken loose by her tantrum and cascaded down inside the collar of her flay- flight jacket.Well, Charlie's flight jacket. ‘Skipper,' came Top's quiet baritone from behind her. ‘We're ready to roll.' ‘Thanks, Top.' Corey accepted the styrofoam cup of coffee he handed her, then sloshed her way to the lead truck, Arlo trotting at her heels. She hoisted herself up into the passenger side of the rig. Arlo curled up beside her and dug his head into her lap.Why did her mother have to be such a [00:29:00] little b***h? And on this night. Was it too much to expect her to remember that it was Charlie's birthday? No, Maria remembered. She was the one who kept a file of birthday cards, organized by month and paper clipped to envelopes, neatly stamped and addressed to the recipient.But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.” After a few minutes, Top started his status report. “Got word from the 24-hour man. The lot they gave us was too small and underwater. He put up a fuss and got us moved to the football field at the high school.” Corey took a sip. “It'll be nice to have a dry lot.Daisy's got that one nail that looks a little soft.” She fiddled with the radio, settling on a country station, what else was there, and yawned. “Where are we headed tonight?” And that is it.Jennie: Wow, well, author T., uh, Wood, what a treat to have Kathleen Barber read your, read your stuff like that. Gee, you, you sounded amazing.You sounded like you'd written that. That was so cool. Do you- I, uh- ... narrate your own books?Barbara: I, I do not, but I have [00:30:00] small children, and I read aloud every night.Jennie: Do you do the voices?Barbara: Oh, yes, I definitely do the voices.Jennie: Do you do all of them, like, in aBarbara: very- I do all of them.Jennie: You do?Barbara: Yeah, yeah. My, my kids were really into the Wings of Fire series, so I've read all of those books, and there are many, many dragons, and they all have different voices, and if I do not remember the different voice, my children will be like, “Mommy, that's not what Peril sounds like,” and then I'll have to remember and try again,Jennie: so.Take notes? Do you have, do you have a guide? Do you just remember? Um,Barbara: no, I just, I just try and remember.Jennie: Oh,Barbara: my. I should take notes, but I'm not that organized. I just go off.Jennie: That, that's amazing. That's amazing. Um, just while we're talking about it, is there audio already for the new book, for, uh, Sisterhood Above All?Barbara: There, there is. There is, yeah. Um, I recently got, uh, got a peek at it, and I am very, very excited. We have a different [00:31:00] narrator for each of the POV characters, and they are all fantastic. Super excited.Jennie: Amazing. All right, so back to this, back to this work. Um, I thought this was great. Uh, did you, did you, how did you feel reading it?Barbara: I, I, I enjoyed reading it. Um, when, when I was, when I was reading it the first time, I, I found myself getting stopped a few times because I felt like there were a lot of names, and I was confused. Um, you know, it's, it's in- I don't feel like an author needs to spell out for me who every single character is on the first page at all.Um, it just felt like in a small amount of time, there were a lot of names that I felt like I was trying to keep track of, and that was a bit confusing for me. Slowed me down a little bit.Jennie: I agree with that. Actually, the first time that I read it And [00:32:00] admittedly, I was scanning these really fast the first time I read it, but there, there's something to that, how things hit your head.But I thought that, um, I thought Daisy was a horse because I was like the one nail that looks a little soft, like is who, what- Yeah ... where would that matter that we need to be on grass? And, and, and then I was like, “Wait, who even is Daisy?” So I got stuck on that- Yeah ... for sure. And, um, and then the, um, there's a nickname that I think the main...I think Corey, the, the other character calls her Skipper, so I was confused by that. Right. So it, yeah. Yeah. Are those some of the things that you mean?Barbara: Yeah. The, those was... And I was also just a little confused when I first started reading that it starts out with person to person call for Tess, and then we're talking about her mother.And I, I thought at first that her mother was [00:33:00] named Tess, and that, and that the operator was trying to reach her, and that her mother was simply not, simply not wanting to talk even though she was by the phone. But then later on I realized that her mother is actually named Maria, and that Tess must be somebody else.Um, I think Corey's daughter, but I didn't, I didn't catch that on first reading. I had to read it again to be able to understand that.Jennie: Yeah. So there, there is a lot going on for sure. When I said that I thought it was great, I- I'm, I'm hoping that this character's some kind of trucker just because that's cool, and, um, it, it seemed like we have some tension both in whatever's happening around...You know, like, they have a 24-hour man. They're... Uh, so there's something afoot. Like, there's a pr- a project or something afoot that feels like it's not gonna go well or something's gonna [00:34:00] happen there. Um, and I also, you know, now we have the thing with the, well, we learn I think it's the mom. But, um, th- there- Yeahwere enough elements of intrigue, like, what's, what's going on here, what's gonna happen, that I... And I thought it was well-written.Barbara: Yeah. No, and I, one of the things that I really enjoyed was the way, the, the descriptions of what the, what the scenery looks like with the, with like the weather. So like there's, there's the rain, um, there's another line about how when they're like getting into the truck that like the lot is underwater, so I'm kind of like envisioning...I actually don't know what time of day it is, but for some reason I'm envisioning it being a little bit darker, but that might just be because of, of the rain that's happening. Maybe that's what's making me think that it's, it's a little bit darker outside, but I'm like envisioning the, the rain, and they're getting into the rig.But I, I didn't get that she was a truck driver. I, I, I think maybe... But I, but I, [00:35:00] I don't know. I don't know. I thought that maybe she was some sort of- Some sort of, like, news person. But I don't... ‘Cause I don't actually, I don't actually know what a 24-hour man is, so I think that might have... Okay. Yeah. No, I don't know.I was just like... So I, so I didn't know. Um, but I was, I was curious to know... Yeah. I was gonna say, I was curious to know why she was making this call to her mother at this moment, and why she was so desperate for her mother to answer the phone at this moment. Um, so yeah, th- those were, those are questions that I had.Jennie: Usually, back in the day, which this was, um, will you accept the charges was something you did when you had no money.Barbara: Mm-hmm.Jennie: You know, you would call home or wherever and, ‘cause you didn't have money to make a call, so the operator would place the call and ask the [00:36:00] person to accept the charges. Mm-hmm. And normally you would do that with somebody who knows you have, you're having a problem, or, you know.So, like, this is a very particular moment that led me to believe that she didn't, she didn't even have money for a call. So- Mm-hmm ... I don't know why I placed her as a trucker. Like, she climbed into the- Oh, okay ... the rig. She s- she sloshed her way to the lead truck. She's fiddling with the radio station. Like, what, where we headed?Yeah. Like, we're just on a job. I totally made her a truckerBarbara: and I- Yeah. No, no, no. I, well, I think maybe the reason I thought maybe she wasn't was because there were all these other... Because, like, Top is there, and the, it's, it's a lead truck, and she's, she's getting into the passenger side. And there's also a, a, a dog, I assume.I assume Arlo's a dog. I suppose it could be some other sort of animal that's, that's with her, but I, I assume Arlo's a dog. Um- Well,Jennie: so this is actually a really great [00:37:00] conversation for anybody listening, and particularly for this author. You can see that if you confuse your reader They're gonna spend their time with these kinds of questions.Like, is the mother Tess or is it Corey? Is this woman a trucker or not? Is... You know, and those are not the kind of questions you want to be leaving your reader with. Those are-Barbara: Yeah ...Jennie: um, I don't know w- how we would describe them, almost logistics. They're,Barbara: they're more like de- yeah, yeah, exactly. ‘Cause I mean, they're, I, I, I enjoy getting a good question at the start of reading something, you know?Like, you know, I mean, for example, it's, it's really interesting that Corey made what seems to be a collect call, and they didn't just not answer it. They answered it, and then hung up on her, which feels, like, very purposeful. And so, like, I'm very, I'm very curious about that relationship. I'm curious about the fact that, that Charlie is, is dead, um, and [00:38:00] who Charlie is to the, to the narrator.These are things that, like, have piqued my curiosity, and I would like to learn more about, um, would inspire me to read more, to learn more about those things. Uh, but then those other things that we were talking about, like, well, like, who is this? W- what kind of animal is Daisy? Like, what are, where are they actually going?Like, what, what is, what is the goal here? What, what is the deal about the, the lot and the, and the football field? The, w- what are we gonna do here? Those are questions that, that slowed me down, and made me less likely to want to keep reading.Jennie: Yeah. I loved that line, “But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.”Barbara: Yeah.Jennie: And I, I'm thinking- Really poignant ... that that's the center of this story, you know, s- who, who was Charlie? I think you said that. Mm-hmm. Was-Barbara: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And ‘cause she's got the jacket.Barbara: Yeah.Jennie: She's got Charlie's jacket, so- That, that'sBarbara: true, and sh- and she's wearing it, I think. [00:39:00]Jennie: Yeah, and, and so- I mean, I suppose Charlie could be a child if this person is older.Barbara: Yeah.Jennie: Like, you know, um, but y- I ... So I had this weird reaction to this, which is I thought it was fun, and maybe that was you reading it. I thought, I thought the writing was great, but I wouldn't turn the page. I'd be frustrated. You know, if, if there was another book or another story that was, um, didn't make me work so hard- Mmto figure out where I was or what was happening, I would choose that over this. So it's a weird combination for me of great job, but it's a no for me.Barbara: Yeah,Jennie: that- What about you?Barbara: That's, that's how I felt. There, there were a lot of elements here that I think are, that are intriguing and that if presented slightly differently would make me want to turn the page.But as, as it is right now, I, I would not. [00:40:00]Jennie: I agree with that. I think it feels close. Mm-hmm. Um, so how could we give this person some direction for, um- Yeah ... well, you talked about all the names, and I don't think the solution is ID all these names.Barbara: Right.Jennie: Mm-hmm. That's gonna be clunky. Or ID all these people. Um-Barbara: Yeah.I, I think for, for me personally, what I think would help was if we were to get a bit more of a peek inside the nar- inside Corey's head, so we could understand from her perspective why it's important that she's making this call, like, what the goal is with the truck. Um, if we just saw it a little bit more from her view and got to know a little bit more of the information that she already holds in her head, I think that would go a long way to making the story feel more accessible to the reader.Jennie: That's really well said, and [00:41:00] hopefully that helps the writer for your next pass to, to think about. But I- there's something, there's something good I think here going on. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I have the same, um, comment that I had earlier. I, I wanna know what kind of story I'm in, and I'm s- and I'm not sure. We were talking about sorting out these relationships and what's happening with the field and the truck and then the weather and all that, but again, is thisThere's no sense of what kind of story this is going to be. And, um, I, I always want a little more. And, and the title is Empty Spaces, which doesn't help, um- Yeah ... point us to that. I hear that. So just a little more, um, of a sense of what world are we? What, what problem do we have? What world are we in? Um, you know, and even just that last bit where the character turns the radio station on and yawns, “Where are we headed [00:42:00] tonight?”It- there's, there's not an urgency of It's, s- nobody's running from anything. There's no- Right ... threat, uh,except for the mom who won't answer the call.Barbara: Yeah, yeah.Jennie: Yeah. Um, so a little, a little more of a sense of what's at stake. Um, I know, we always are asking so much on a first page, but- I know ...Barbara: uh. I know, but e- you know, it's, there are so many things to read, you know, from, like agents, editors, readers, all have so many things to choose from, and so it's just so important to nail that first page, you know?Jennie: How many times do you rewrite your first pages?Barbara: Oh my gosh, so many times. So many times. Yeah. Yeah, well, um, ‘cause usually I write the first page, and then I write the rest of the book, and then I'm like, “Oh, like, the rest of the book does something different. I need to go back and, like, make this first page...”Also, I do, I often do the thing that I think a lot of writers do, which is, [00:43:00] once you've written a little bit further, you realize that, like, you've started at the wrong spot. Um, I mean, the, one of, one of the things that helps me when I, when I think to do it is to use one of the exercises that's in, that's in your work, where you, where you start what, you, you write the beginning and the ending before you even start anything.Um, and I, I, when I remember to do that the right way, that really, definitely helps me. Um, but I don't always remember to do that, and so I have, like, partway in, and then I'm like, “Wait, no, the first page.” So,Jennie: it's- Well, that, yeah, that's a, um, a step in the blueprint for a book book. Um, it's a good one, for sure.Uh, well, thank you so much for joining me for, for this, Kathleen, and congratulations on the new book. Um, for everyone listening, go check out, you can find everything at KathleenBarber.com. And, um, you can find Sisterhood Above All, which is brand new and just out and sounds like so much [00:44:00] fun. I, it's on my TBR, TBR.Yay. I just can't read, I just can't read thrillers at night. I get too scared. So,Barbara: um-Jennie: That'sBarbara: fair. That's fair ...Jennie: I, I have to wait till I'm, like, on a plane or, um, you know, somewhere where I'm reading during the day. Yeah. Is this one, is this one l- scary scary?Barbara: I mean, it's, it's not, like, scary scary. It's, it's not, like, uh- It's, it's not like there's someone who's out there to kill you for reasons that you cannot control.You know what I mean? Like, it's like- Yeah, yeah ... it would be scary to the people inside the book, but it should not be scary to you. ButJennie: I understand how- Well, we don't need to reas- We don't need to reassure me because people love these, love these- Yeah ... and, uh, what a fun, fun setting and setup for- Thank youa thriller. It's, it's exciting. Thanks. So can't wait to see how, how the world receives it. And- Mm ... um, I always hate to say this to somebody whose book just came out, but can't wait to see what you do next. [00:45:00]Barbara: Don't worry, I'm already writingJennie: stuff. Oh, yeah. Do you, ooh, do you wanna, do you wanna tell or no?Barbara: I, I do not, just ‘cause I get really superstitious about it, but, um, but I have something that I'm working on that I'm excited about, so you know, we'll see how it goes.Jennie: I love it. Well, thank you for joining us for Book Life, Jennifer.Barbara: Thanks for having me. That was a lot of fun.Jennie: For our listeners, let's get back to work and finish what matters most.Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:46:00] work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 501, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dig into the parable of the watchful doorkeeper in Mark 13:32–37 — four tightly packed verses that Jesus uses to call his servants to alertness before his return. But this isn't a passage about spiritual caffeine and white-knuckling your way through the Christian life. Tony and Jesse unpack what "stay awake" actually means through the lens of Reformed theology: active, differentiated stewardship in the ordinary means of grace, faithful vocation in every sphere of life, and a corporate ecclesial readiness that belongs to the whole church, not just the individual. This episode reorients the familiar language of watchfulness away from anxiety and date-setting toward the sturdy, quiet confidence of a believer who knows who they are, whose house they serve in, and why that identity drives everything. Key Takeaways "Stay awake" is a command about identity, not performance. The doorkeeper doesn't do what he does to become the doorkeeper — he's already the doorkeeper. Christians are watchful because of who they already are in Christ, not to earn or secure that status. Vocation is not optional waiting — it's active, differentiated stewardship. Christ's ascension corresponds to the master's departure, and the interim period is characterized by each servant being given his own work, reflecting Calvin's doctrine of vocation and the Reformed insistence that the Christian life between the ascension and the Parousia is not passive. Watchfulness is corporate, not merely individual. The church, as the pillar and buttress of truth, is called to a collective readiness. In Presbyterian polity, every act of a valid church jurisdiction is an act of the whole church — meaning each member has a genuine stake in the faithfulness of the whole body. The ordinary means of grace are the means of watchfulness. Prayer, the Word, the sacraments, fellowship, and sitting under preaching are not supplementary to vigilance — they are the very instruments by which God preserves and prepares his people. Two errors must be avoided: speculative date-setting and practical indifference. Uncertainty about the hour of Christ's return is neither an invitation to calculate nor an excuse for carelessness. It is the very grounds for sustained, ordinary faithfulness. The warnings of Scripture are themselves a means of grace. Following Westminster Confession of Faith 17, the sobering warning of verse 36 is not a threat to the elect's final security but a pastoral instrument by which God preserves his people in living, active faith. The rooster-crowing language of Mark 13 anticipates the Passion narrative. The clustering of watchfulness, the night watches, and the crowing rooster in this chapter echoes the Garden of Gethsemane and Peter's denial — a connection particularly resonant given Mark's traditional association with Peter's testimony. Explanatory Paragraphs Vocation and the Active Interim One of the most theologically rich observations in this episode is the way Jesse frames the master's departure as corresponding directly to the ascension of Christ. The key phrase in verse 34 — "each one his task" — is not incidental detail. It reflects the Reformed doctrine of vocation at full strength: every believer, in every sphere of influence, has been given particular work to do on behalf of the Lord during Christ's bodily absence. This is not a passive waiting room existence. It is an active, differentiated stewardship that is deeply personal and yet accountable to the master who owns the whole house. The ascension does not mean abandonment, and the parable makes that clear by the fact that the servants are left in charge — trusted, commissioned, and expected to be about their work when the master returns. The Church's Corporate Readiness A standout contribution of this episode is Tony's move from the individual to the ecclesial. Drawing directly from OPC Book of Church Order, Chapter 3, he argues that church power is not vested in officers alone but in the whole body of believers. This means that when any legitimate church jurisdiction acts — whether in discipline, instruction, or governance — it is the whole church acting. The parable's doorkeeper is therefore not just a figure for personal piety; he is a figure for the corporate watchfulness that belongs to every member of the household. Tony's point is that a Christian who is disconnected from his local church, indifferent to what is being taught and decided elsewhere in the visible church, is not simply failing at individual holiness — he is failing to be awake in the fullest sense the parable intends. The Ordinary Means of Grace as Watchfulness Itself Perhaps the most pastorally stabilizing insight of the episode is Jesse's observation that watchfulness is not some extraordinary spiritual heroism layered on top of normal Christian life — it is normal Christian life. The ordinary means of grace are ordinary precisely because they are the regular, appointed instruments through which God delivers his grace to his people. Prayer, the Word, the sacraments, and fellowship are not preparatory disciplines that get you ready for the real work of being watchful. They are the work. Tony reinforces this by noting that a person who persistently refuses the ordinary means of grace is not simply being unwise — they are declining the offer of God's grace, which is a far more serious matter than mere spiritual lethargy. Memorable Quotes The doorkeeper doesn't do what he does to become the doorkeeper in this parable. He's already the doorkeeper, and the fact that he's the doorkeeper explains why he's given certain responsibilities and certain commands. That's the way it is for us as Christians. - Tony Arsenal The warnings of Scripture are themselves among the ordinary means by which God preserves His people... the sobering possibility of being found asleep functions pastorally not to threaten the loss of the elect, but to press home the seriousness of watchfulness as the fruit and evidence of genuine faith." - Jesse Schwamb When I go into a patient encounter at the hospital, or when I pull up to a red light, or when I order a sandwich at McDonald's and they get it wrong — I bring with me the fact that I am a Christian, the fact that I am a servant of Christ, that I am a doorkeeper in the house of the living God. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: [00:01:00] Welcome to episode 501 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we've got some more kingdom teaching on tap right from the mouth of Jesus. We're going through all the parables, if you haven't been tracking with us so far, and we're finding ourselves in Mark chapter 13. And as J- only Jesus can do, packs four verses with all kinds of rich, robust theology, and it's all in this kind of strange setting, actually. A guy heads out of town. He hands his servants the keys. He tells the doorman, "Hey, watch the place," with the same kind of e- enigmatic and vague energy that I imagine, like, your cable internet provider gives you when they give you an arrival time between now and Friday. And then Jesus lists literally, like, every possible hour He might show up, evening, midnight, rooster clock, dawn. And all of this is for His glory and for our benefits. [00:02:00] And we're gonna somehow try to see if we can take all of these four verses, which are so jam-packed, and fit them into our conversation. That's our challenge, and it's gonna be yours to listen to. So welcome to this episode.  Affirm or Deny Segment Jesse Schwamb: But before we do all of that, it is everybody's favorite time. Well, except for Wicked Scriptures. That is really everybody's favorite time. Second favorite time is where we find something in our lives, Tony, that we either affirm with because it's awesome, it's exciting, want everybody to know about it, or conversely, we deny against something because it's just not that great. We don't like it. Don't waste your time with it. So everybody longs to know, in this conversation, are you affirming with or denying against?  Tony Affirms Psalm Music Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming something tonight. Uh, the listener might remember, I don't know, maybe a month and a half back, I affirmed a particular setting of Psalm 63 in the Trinity Psalter Hymnal. And as I was kind of, you know, looking around for, I wanted to find a track to sort of maybe add to the end of the episode just to sort of, [00:03:00] like, put a point on that. I stumbled on, um, a song, singer, I don't know if you'd call him a songwriter, 'cause he's mostly just writing song- psalms. But he's, he's arranging them. He's, you know, writing the guitar line for it or whatever. Uh, his name is Matthew David Montgomery. Uh, I don't know that you would know him from anywhere, but he's on, um- Apple Music, YouTube, Spotify, wherever. Uh, he does an arrangement of O God Show Mercy to Us, which is Psalm 63, uh, setting A, I believe, in the Trinity Psalter hymnal. But, um, it's, it's in other hymnals, other psalters, uh, under the same name with the same tune. Uh, he has a beautiful singing voice. He does a lot of, uh, what's typically called, like, finger style, uh, guitar picking, uh, which is just very melodious and very gentle and soft. Um, it would be a great addition to, like, your morning devotional time to just, like, pick a psalm that he sings, that he's, he's recorded. Um, you can get most of his stuff for free on, uh, YouTube, or again, if you have Apple [00:04:00] Music or Spotify, it's available there. Uh, again, his name is Matthew David Montgomery, and he's got several, uh, several albums. He has ones that specifically is psalms called Psalms for Singing. Um, and then he has a couple finger style hymn songs, uh, hymn albums that are like, you know, like I don't know, more modern hymns, He Will Hold Me Fast, Only Holy God- Right kinda like Getty, um, Getty-style and City Alight songs, those kinds of sort of that complex of modern hymnody. Um, but he's excellent, and it's excellent theologically rich sound music. Um, I haven't listened to everything, but he seems like he's in kind of that, uh, sort of vein of worship music production producer peoples, um, that are just putting out good, accessible music. I know, like, a lot of small churches, uh, have in the past have had to resort to using tracks like this actually to sort of lead their vocal music. Um, that would be something to think [00:05:00] about. It's simple. It's arranged in a straightforward fashion. Many times it's arranged according to the psalters, which are by, almost by definition are designed for congregational singing. So it's good. It's great. Use it for family worship, listen to in your car. I don't know, workout music. I don't know if you would work out to this, but I guess you could try. Um- I love it ... but yeah, I usually, I usually listen to, um, Oh God, Show Mercy To Us probably, like, once a day. I listen to it usually in the morning to kinda center my day and get my head in the right space. Um, but yeah, it's just good stuff. David, um, Mi- Matthew David Montgomery, uh, the specific one was Psalms for Singing, but, um, all of his stuff is really great.  Jesse Schwamb: All right.  Jesse Affirms Hymn Devotional Jesse Schwamb: People are gonna think we're totally conspiring now, but I promise we're not. This is just how our minds work in collective fashion, that we never speak about stuff together. So my affirmation is right in the same vein. So I'm actually excited about this one because it might just be the golden age of daily books about, like, theological meditation. It might be. And [00:06:00] so this one is really good, and I'm super stoked because I'm kind of on the cusp of this one because I got an advance copy of this book, and it's just out now. It's called Awake My Soul, and it's daily readings, 365 hymn texts taken throughout church history from the Middle Ages to 1900. And each hymn for the day includes s- a suggested tune and then, like, a short historical slash, like, theological meditation. The beauty of this- Wow One, I'm learning all kinds of new hymns that are not my favorite. Two, you can either read them or... There's no music included in this, except that in the back there's an index that will give you... There's, like, a little code every day. This is like a s- it's your own treasure hunt. There's a little code on each day, and if you take that code and go back to the end of the book, what you'll find there is names of popular hymns or songs that you do know the, the tune to, and then you can take that same tune and use the same poetic meter that the hymn is in that you don't know, and guess what? You can actually sing it. So you're prepared every day to sing [00:07:00] music and to sing brand-new music with great confidence and high conviction. So this is, like, the bridge here. Go listen to some good music. And I would say if you wanna buy this, because it is brand new, go to hymnworks.com. It's by P&R Publishing. That's where you'll find the best price. It's, like, 25 bucks. It's a beautiful clothbound, like, handsome two-color printing with a ribbon. And also Passion Week and Advent are clearly marked and can be adapted for use in any calendar year. So there you go. Like, it's the double-barreled affirmation for good singing, good hymns. By the way, for all the brothers and sisters of exclusive psalmody, we see you raising your hands in the back. Actually, if you're doing exclusive psalmody, you're in the front. So we see you in the front, and this- And you're  Tony Arsenal: probably not raising your hands.  Jesse Schwamb: You're definitely not raising your hand. We see your hands  Tony Arsenal: in your pockets. Jesse Schwamb: We see you standing there  Tony Arsenal: stoically.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. We see your hands in your pockets, never coming out. That's fine. Yeah. Uh, this book also is for you because so much of it is actually just, uh, the psalms adapted for kind of [00:08:00] more, when I say contemporary, between the Middle Ages and 1900 worship. So, uh, there you go. I think this is lovely. Uh, we didn't plan it, but you've got two great resources for daily living and daily singing.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Building Daily Liturgy Tony Arsenal: And, you know, I think, um, there is sort of an element, and I'll be quick about this, where we are set up... We have such a, like, a dearth of riches in terms of accessibility to musical worship. And y- you know, used to think of it as, like, daily devotions, but I think the more, I think the more accurate and I think a, a more theologically rich term is a daily liturgy. Right. Um, you know, with books like Be Thou My Vision, um, by I think it's David Gibson, or, you know, he has, like, the Christmas version and the, um, I think there's an Easter version of it where it really walks you through a, a full daily liturg- liturgy with, like, a call to worship and a, a confession of sin. And, [00:09:00] um, and you could take these resources, whether it's an album like David, uh, or, like, um, David Michael Montgomery. That's a country singer, I think. Whatever the guy is that I recommend. I don't have his name in front of me. Uh, whether it's an album like that or whether it's- Right ... this resource Jesse's talking about, or like I've said before, like, just the trendy Psalter Hymnal app on your phone which will play the music for you and display the words. You can take this and there... I, I hate to say it this way because I know there's a lot of people that, that make good profitable use of sort of like evangelical, I would call it, like, fluffy devo kinda stuff. Uh, which ironically on my list of affirmations of things that are in the queue, there's, there's a devotional resource that even kinda falls into this category. Yeah, there is. But, um, there really is no good excuse for not having some sort of robust daily worship pattern. Right. Um, because you can, you can really make use of these resources to create a pretty cohesive, well put-together, pleasurable kind of [00:10:00] daily worship set or liturgy or experience, I don't know, whatever word you wanna slot in there. Um, a- and really get... Like, really just have an excellent experience out of it, really have good resources. So yeah, I'm, I'm on board. I think it's great. I would love to, I would love to be able to, uh, to take a look at that. So maybe next time we're in the same geographical location you'll have to show me. Jesse Schwamb: Oh, I'll bring it. We'll, we'll do it. It actually doubles as a hymnal because it's all indexed, so you can actually- Yeah ... just use it as a hymnal. I love books that give you two purposes. Oh, that's a double threat book right there. And that means, like, for the spaces taken up in your life and on your shelf it can do more than one thing. That's like having a kitchen appliance that, like, I don't know, is like an air fryer and it brews beer. Like, that's worth- Yeah ... the space all the time  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I just recently found out that they make washers that are also dryers, and they're in the same machine, and- Wow.  Jesse Schwamb: That's transformative ... I  Tony Arsenal: would feel like a millionaire if I had one of those- Reading Mark 13 Parable Jesse Schwamb: 'cause- Well, speaking of [00:11:00] feeling like a millionaire, and I think what you challenge us with is settling in some patterns of daily worship and living for God, it just so happens that Jesus has some instruction for us in that same way- Nice ... in Mark chapter 13. So let me start beginning in verse 32. And if you're tracking along or keeping score at home and you've gone to this chapter, what you're probably gonna find is we're actually in the, the parable of the fig tree, or just at the end. But w- we're not gonna touch that one, not yet, so don't get too excited. We're actually coming right at the end of that. So picking up in verse 32: "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Now, this is Jesus speaking: "See to it, keep on the alert, for you do not know when the appointed time will come. It's like a man away on a journey who, leaving his house and giving authority to his slaves, each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay awake. Therefore stay awake – for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the [00:12:00] evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning – lest he come suddenly and find you sleeping. And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake." Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  What Stay Awake Means Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's a good, uh, it's a good parable. And, you know, this is covering a lot of the same ground as other parables that we've, uh, approached. I think what's a little bit, uh, unique or different about this one is that some of the, some of the cautions that we, um, brought out with the other parables, because they were actually longer and had more details, um, some of those cautions don't necessarily apply the same way here. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Right? We, we talked about the parable of the 10, of the 10 virgins, or the wise and foolish virgins, whatever you wanna call it, and we talked a lot about how this language of, like, stay awake seemed to be misapplied, uh, as, like, falling asleep is foolish. Because in that para- that particular parable, [00:13:00] um, both the wise and the foolish virgins fall asleep. It's not the falling asleep that was the problem, it was the being prepared, um, for the master's return. Uh, in that case, having the proper equipment, having your, you know, your lamps trimmed, your oil ready, all that stuff. In this parable, um, it really is about being awake. Like, being awake is the task. Yes. It's the specific command. That's right. And so our task tonight is to unpack a little bit about what it even means to be awake, what does this parable say to us about that. Um, but I, I think this one falls a little bit more in line with kind of what we maybe... I know this is weird to say. It falls a little bit more in line with what we've been talking about as a, sort of like a little bit of a legalistic approach to some of the parables. This one really does have, I th- I think, has more to do with, uh, the, the sort of production that Christians are expected to have.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: The, the, the holiness, the good works we're expected to have, and how [00:14:00] that plays into kind of our alertness, our, our fittedness for service, uh, and, and maybe ultimately even the way that we're rewarded in the last, the last times or in, in heaven. All of that kinda plays in here, and this is kind of like Mark's equivalent to sort of like the eschatological parables that we talked about at, at the end of Matthew in, you know, Matthew 25 and, and sort of that area  Jesse Schwamb: I totally agree.  Vocation and Stewardship Jesse Schwamb: I think this bad boy, even just the first verse, it's like a compact statement of the doctrine of vocation and providence all wrapped into one. And it's easy to read it and just kind of fly by that stuff and say, "Of course, I need to be aware of what's going on. I need to be aware of God's presence or seek Him in worship." All that's true, but there's a lot in this because, of course, the master's departure here corresponds clearly to Christ's ascension. There's like a real bodily absence that nonetheless does not amount to like abandonment. And then to your point, what I think starts to differentiate us from some of like the [00:15:00] other parables where we've been very careful about parsing this, has been this assignment, each his own work. It's reflecting like a really traditional like Reformed, I think, emphasis, even from like Calvin's doctrine of vocation, that the Christian life between the ascension and the Parousia is not one of like passive waiting, but there is like an active differentiated stewardship, and it's every believer. And even though it's just a sentence, there's like a lot of particularity in this to remind us that each one has a task, and that task is something that you should undertake on behalf and for the Lord  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and this, um, the other element of this, um, that I think is interesting is, you know, we don't wanna, um We wanna be careful not to try to build entire theological, like edifices, edifices. I'm not sure which word is right. Edifice. We don't wanna build huge theological structures on top of like slight variations in words. And, and I know that, um, that can [00:16:00] sometimes be very popular in our circles and, and I'm, I s- absolutely support the grammatical historical interpretive method. I don't think it's the only el- only, you know, hermeneutic we should think about. But I definitely agree with the words matter and the meanings of the words matter. Right. But we can also go too far in, like, making an entire theological point hang on the particular choice of a verb pars- like a verb tense or mood or whatever. But I think it's interesting, um, w- the sort of what we might call the parable proper starts in verse 34, but in verse 33 it says, "Be on guard, keep awake, for you do not know when the time will come." That's not the parable. That's Christ giving a command to his immediate audience, and then I think vicariously therefore for us. When we get into the parable and it, and it says, uh, that the command for the doorkeeper, right? So the, he, he takes his servants, he puts his servants in charge, and I s- I take that to mean, [00:17:00] like, he leaves the house to them. Like, he leaves them to their task. They're, they're not, they're not having to report to anybody. They just manage the household- Right ... autonomously or independently. Um, each with his work, so there's this idea that, like, each of the servant has their own proper sort of realm of the house that they manage, right? The gardener's managing the garden, the, the house, you know, the, the, um, the, the person who's in charge of the money is managing that. And the doorkeeper, which is a particular role, his task, his charge, his, he is commanded to stay awake. Now, the phrase, the word for stay awake in verse 30, uh, 34 is not the same word that's used in verse 33. Now, I, I have not done the word study on this or, or the c- commentary work to know how significant that is, but we do affirm that the Holy Spirit inspires each individual word.  Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  Tony Arsenal: And I think we could make an argument that sometimes a word is just used, um, at least on a, on a [00:18:00] human level. It, it's just you don't wanna use the same word multiple times. Like, just like anyone writing any sort of pi- piece of work, you don't use the same word repetitively. You vary the words. You use, use synonyms to, to spice it up and to give it some variety. But also, I think there may be some significance in the fact that within the story, within the parable, the command to stay awake is a particular word, and then a different word to stay awake and to be watchful, and there's this repetition, "Be on guard. Keep awake." Like, those are parallel statements. Um, those, that's a significant thing that that word is different  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's a huge, I think, reminder that there's all... The- even, again, I can't believe how much is packed. Now that I think about this, we start talking about it into, like, a single sentence. But every believer, like every servant in this house, has been given some kind of task suited to his place. I believe that's what Jesus is trying to impress us with. And that idleness is not an option countenanced by the text because the doorkeeper's [00:19:00] particular charge to watch, like you were saying, functions to me, I think, almost like a synecdoche. Like, it's f- for the whole- Yeah ... household's duty. His vigilance stands for what is in fact required of every servant, since verse 37 will then extend this command to, like, everybody. So just- Yeah ... within, like, this little space of writing or this little space of teaching, I think what we have here is, like, it's realistic for us to say we've got the twin realities that ground really biblical ecclesiology in the interim period. We have Christ's real absence, but that's, like, against, I would say, any collapsing of the already into a fully realized eschatology. And then you have Christ's ongoing ownership and authority over his house, which is the church, against any notion that the church is left to autonomous self-governance. So the house, in other words, re- remains Christ's, and the servants remain accountable to him, not to themselves, like you've just said, and each one is accountable to God in a unique way according to the task that he's given them. So again, this beautiful marriage of [00:20:00] both the responsibility, the providence, and the responsibility that we have before God in being responsible to him, but also that he is governing all things for his good and for his glory.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Doorkeeper Role Explained Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think, um, the word doorkeeper here too, uh, you know, as I peek at the Greek a little bit, the word doorkeeper is also a much broader term than, uh, it might seem. You know, like I think, you know, one of my kid's favorite shows is like Curious George, and there's a character in the, the story that's literally named Doorman, and he's just the guy that like opens the door in the apartment that- Right ... Curious George and the Man in the Yellow Hat. But the word doorkeeper in, uh, in the Greek here, when applied to a, a female, is understood to be like the janitor. So the doorkeeper might even be considered something more like the master of the house. Like think of like, um-  Jesse Schwamb: Lady's ...  Tony Arsenal: uh, like the, the head butler, right? In like if you think of like Downton Abbey, right? Right. The, the guy who actually like takes care of and like [00:21:00] runs, the house manager or something like that might be a better way to look at it. And I think you're right that his charge to stay awake, to keep alert, it does extend to the entire household, but it also is a particular command for that figure.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Right? So yes, everybody is given their task. This, this person, this doorkeeper, he is, um, called out specifically, individually, right? It's not as though he's the only servant in the house. There's all these other servants, they each have their task, and they're all commanded to keep about their business. The doorkeeper, the master of the house, the, I don't know, head butler, the head ch- the chief janitor, I don't know what you would want, the head custodian of the house, um, and don't think of custodian or janitor in terms of like- Like the school janitor who like cleans the toilets and mops up after the kids throwing up and stuff. The, the janitor or the custodian of the house is really the person who kind of like runs the household, the sort of like head servant of the house. [00:22:00] His command to keep watchful, to be on guard or to be alert is because, um, the, the master's return is sudden and unexpected. Right. And so if the doorkeeper doesn't keep up with things, if he's not awake, if he's not running things, if he's not managing things, if he's not alert and awake, then not only does his task get, get, um, undone... And I think like we think of it like, "Oh yeah, be on guard." You sometimes hear this parable or, or variations of this parable taught as like you gotta keep the wolves out, like he's the guard at the door. Right. I don't think that's what this is getting at. It's really more like if this, if the doorkeeper s- falls asleep on the job, then the entire house falls into disarray, and you can't recover that when the master all of a sudden is at the gate. If you're just the guard, I guess you might be able to snap to attention and like, you know, pull your pole arm or whatever it is up. Like you might be able to snap to attention and kind of fake it. But if you're the guy who manages the entire household and the [00:23:00] whole household is in disarray because you've fallen asleep on the job, there's no recovering from that when the master taps you on the shoulder and says, "Please wake up, I'm home." You just can't recover from that. And so I think that's, that's the element of the story, the element of the parable that we probably need to think about a little bit more is, all right, w- no one of us is the doorkeeper of the church.  Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  Tony Arsenal: But also none of us are not the doorkeeper of the church. So like we all have a role and a responsibility in, in the church to sort of like be a part of, an active part of the church, an active part of God's kingdom, which is not, I'm not trying to say we're all gatekeepers, right? We're not all called to be r- to rule over the church. Like there's a particular office of ruling elder that I would say exists, uh, you know, that's codified in the OPC. But even within other kinds of s- setups, there's usually some sort of elder, you know, setup where there's elders that are not teaching elders. They're not there to like teach and minister and, and preach. They're there to [00:24:00] like govern the church and support the needs of the body spiritually. That's really, uh, you know, like a particular office, but that's also a task and a role that we all share as Christians is to, to sh- sort of, I almost said shepherd, but that doesn't feel right, but it also doesn't feel wrong. To sort of like manage the business of the congregation and the church- That's right ... and the, the invisible church as a whole. That's the task of every Christian, and that's really what this parable's getting at, I think.  Jesse Schwamb: I think so too. And I, I don't wanna, like, build too far a bridge away from that point. I think it's worth sitting there for a second because what occurs to me as you were saying that is I just happened to be reading Calvin's commentary this morning in 1 Corinthians 5, and he builds this whole theological argument around this idea that he, he basically is saying, "Why should the Corinthians mourn over one man's sin?" And he gives two reasons. First, as a consequence of the communion that exists among the members of the church, it's becoming that all should feel hurt at or so it's deadly if one of their members should fall. And the second is when such an erroneous sin is [00:25:00] perpetrated in a particular church, the perpetrator is an offender in such a manner that he pollutes the whole society. That is to say, I think it's kind of in line with what you're saying, that corruption in one place will affect the entire body. That is like falling asleep, pulling away from the mission Being found outside of the mission of God's, uh, for God's glory is something that hurts the church body. And we might ask, like if there is in our own lives a persistent sin, some kind of corruption, then we ought to ask, is there any form of corruption that we're contributing to the body of God? And I think those, these like real consequences of what it means to live in a way where we find ourselves, again, outside of what it means to worship whole heartedly, to worship with heart, soul, and mind, all of which we do imperfectly. Yet at the same time- Yeah ... are we being awake? Are we being made aware? Watchfulness and Rest Jesse Schwamb: I, I wonder if part of what's envisioned here and in view with Jesus' teaching is not just this idea... Almost like I think sometimes we, we say stay awake or we say be [00:26:00] watchful, and of course like I love that Jesus mentions like the four watches. Like that's, I think, like a distinctly kind of Roman division of the night into four three-hour segments. And of course it's gonna suggest to Mark's gentile audience that, and, and underscore this point, that it's not which watch, but that no watch may be presumed safe from the master's arrival. And so I think when we hear that stuff we think, "Well, this means like don't fall asleep." In other words, like there's going to be a test somewhere in your life or all of your life where you're going to be legitimately tempted to take a rest, and you can't take a rest. You gotta keep like just going thrust or no th- you, there's no other choice- Right ... but to give it your all. I think what's better here and what's in view is in all areas of life, are you awake to the reality that God has given you work to do in the spheres of influence that you have, in the particular place in which you live, among the church people whom He has given you to worship with? Are you aware that at all times you ought to be moving and working and for His glory, [00:27:00] even while you are literally sleeping in rest so that you might do those things for the next day? So I- Yeah ... I don't wanna get too hyped up on it's kind of like, again, what's the spiritual equivalent of always drinking Celsius and Red Bull and just like toughing it out- Yeah like with your eyes wide open. It's, it's way more than that.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, uh, this is gonna seem like a weird transition, but it's, it is but also isn't. Um, I, I saw an interesting video the other... I'm getting super nerdy here right now. But, um, I saw an interesting video on YouTube the other day that was talking about how strange it was that there is like a night shift on the Starship Enterprise on Star Trek Next Generation. But, but actually like- It, it demonstrated something to me that, like, even on a, you know, this is obviously a fictional television show, but, like, even on a spaceship where there is no sun, there is no actual reference- Right ... for what a day is, right? We think of a day, and, and rightfully so, it's locked into a 24-hour cycle because of the [00:28:00] way God has created the Earth to spin, and the sun, and the sunrise, sunset, et cetera. But in this fictionalized universe, in this fictionalized world, there's no sunset. There's no, uh, chronology, yet they still divide on, on this, they still divide the day into these three watches. And it's funny, 'cause they talk about how, like, well, there's, there's the day shift, there's the sort of like second shift, and there's the night shift. And they actually even, like, turn the lights down on the ship to simulate a day-night cycle. And, and what it got me thinking about, and I think in the parable, obviously, like, it's the four watches of the night. Um, I play a lot of Dungeons & Dragons, and, like, when you're gonna do what's called a long rest, you have to determine who's gonna set a watch. If you don't set a proper watch, then the dungeon master may make it so monsters show up and you don't get your long rest. This idea that- Even resting is an appropriate and necessary execution of- Right ... the task to be watchful. That's right. Like, I think that's important. If you are, um, i- if you think of like, uh, Lord of the [00:29:00] Rings, right? And they set a watch. Uh, the responsibility of the people who aren't on watch is to make every, every use of that time to sleep so that if something happens, they're alert. And then when also when it's time for them to take watch, they're able to be watchful. And, uh, the other thing I wanna, wanna just comment really quickly on, because I, I, I didn't do a lot of prep for this episode. Big shocker. We don't prep a lot for these episodes. And this is another Markan parable that I'm not super familiar with.  Church Alertness and Power Tony Arsenal: But one of the things that as we're talking through it I'm, I'm becoming more convinced of, is this really is about not just any one individual being alert, although there is implications for us. It's really about the whole church being alert.  Jesse Schwamb: That's  Tony Arsenal: right. Like, the church is the, uh... I, I think it's in, I wanna say it's in Timothy, I don't know where, but the Church is the buttress and pillar of truth, right? So that's not to say we're the, we're the arbiter of truth, but I wanna read this. The... I don't know any other podcasts, although in our circles there [00:30:00] probably are other podcasts that you might hear someone reading out of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church book of Church Order, Form of Government, chapter three, verse, uh, passage one here. Uh, but this is, this is, as I said, uh, BCO chapter three, Form of Government. Uh, and this is, the chapter is titled The Nature and Exercise of Church Power. And when I was coming into the OPC, I don't think I was surprised, uh, in terms of like I thought the theology was different. I was pleasantly surprised to see that this was articulated and how clearly it was articulated. So I'm just gonna read the whole section here. It says, "The power which Christ has committed to His Church is not vested in special officers alone, but in the whole body. All believers are endued with the Spirit & called of Christ to join in the worship, edification, and the witness of the Church which grows as the body of Christ, fitly framed and knit together through, uh, that which every joint supplies according to the working and due measure of each part." Sidebar commentary. The BCO doesn't [00:31:00] have proof text, but if they did, they would just be citing to Ephesians 5 here. Um, back to what the text says. "The power of believers in their general office includes the right to acknowledge and desire the exercise of the gifts and calling of the special officers. The regular exercise of oversight in a particular congregation is discharged by those who have been called to such work by the vote of the people." So just to summarize that, officers, at least in the OPC Um, ruling elders are nominated and voted into, into office and essentially, uh, given their powers, their official powers, their official responsibilities, not by the presbytery, uh, and not by some hierarchy, but by the congregation. They call from within.  Church Authority From Congregation Tony Arsenal: But that, that means that the power of the ruling elders, the, the authority of the ruling elders, is not derived from some hierarchy. It's derived from the [00:32:00] authority and the exercise of power of the whole church. And the other thing, I won't read this, but the other thing that I found, um, really interesting that I really like is in Presbyterianism, and, and I, I believe Presbyterianism is what the Bible teaches positively as a command. I know there are other church polities, and I know everybody is trying to figure it out, and we don't all agree. I think Presbyterianism is the right way.  Jurisdictions And Whole Church Acts Tony Arsenal: But either way, um Presbyterianism works on a s- sort of an idea of, uh, jurisdictions, right? And they're kinda concentric circles. They're not necessarily hierarchical, but it's, it's narrow jurisdictions and then broader jurisdictions. And the most narrow jurisdiction is the session of a local church over that congregation. But what's really interesting is that the, the Book of Church Order calls out that when any valid jurisdiction of the church is exercising its authority, it's not just that jurisdiction that's [00:33:00] acting. That's an act of the whole church, the entire Orthodox Presbyterian Church. So in a congregation where someone is in unrepentant sin and that, uh, session makes a decision, votes a decision to excommunicate that person, to remove them from the rolls, consider them to be an unbeliever, that's not just an act of that jurisdiction. I- i- as a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, when some church in Sacramento, California, I don't know if there's an OPC in Sacramento, I assume there probably is, but some church in Sacramento, California, the presbytery or the session excommunicates someone, I am e- I'm engaged in that act. That's an act of the whole church.  Watchfulness Beyond Personal Piety Tony Arsenal: And this, the, the only reason I go there and I bring, I kind of dive into that level of granularity is I actually think that this is kind of what this parable is teaching, is that as individuals, we need to be alert because the whole church acting is the whole church acting. So whether this takes the [00:34:00] form of me just being really un- un- like, locked into my local church and making sure that I'm active in my local church, or whether... And I think there are some of us who are called to this, um, and I think our, our podcast in some levels sort of takes this shape a little bit, are watching what other people in the church are doing and sometimes are offering corrections, right? It is not the case that an average blogger has ecclesiastical authority in the strictest sense, but when I see, or, or anyone who is sort of involved in online commentary, podcast, blogging or otherwise, I see someone in the church teaching something elsewhere and I call that out, that's me sort of fulfilling this command of Mark 13. I'm being watchful Because what that Christian says or does, if they're truly a Christian, actually does have something to do with what I believe. It actually does have something to do with me as a believer. That doesn't mean that you should get up in everybody else's business. That's not what I'm saying. Like, sometimes- Right ... the thing [00:35:00] that's going on in the church over there is just that thing that's going on over at the church there. But for example, there was a pretty high-profile, um, uh, ecclesiastical, I don't know if it was a trial, but like an ecclesiastical deposition, I guess, um, for a presbytery down in the Southwest, um, about some pretty gnarly things that were being said by an elder in the OPC church, and I wrote to that presbytery. They haven't sent it to me yet, but I wrote to that presbytery and said, "Hey, what you did at that meeting is an act of the whole church that I'm a part of. Can you send me the minutes?" And I have a right to do that, because I wanna see what's going on. I wanna understand what statements they're making on behalf of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of America. Or, I just combined like 1,000 different denominations- Yes, you did. ... into one sentence. But I, I think the point is clear, like the, the parable of the watchful doorkeeper or the porter is not about exclusively, I do think there's an element of it, but it's not about our individual piety. It's about the sort of readiness state of the entire church for [00:36:00] Christ's return, if you really boil it all down  Avoid Date Setting And Indifference Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so we, I think before we leave verse 35, we, we are at least contractually obligated to say, though we've said it before, that there are two errors here that we should definitely seek to avoid. And because we're talking about, again, this idea that we do not know when the master of the house will come, that is the reason why we wait, and we are watchful, like you just said. But it means that the first is any kind of, like, speculative date setting, which is a fool's errand. We've talked about that at length. Yeah. The second one, again, I think we're contractually obligated to say, is a practical indifference, maybe sometimes dressed as, like, pious agnosticism, like treating the uncertainty of that hour as grounds for some kind of spiritual carelessness rather than heightened attentiveness. So I think where all this wraps up with what you said about one representing all, that, that is the church's responsibility. Yes, you're right. In Timothy we get the command that this is the center and the pillar. So I... That obviously all this coheres with just straight-up biblical [00:37:00] doctrine of assurance and perseverance, because the elect are kept by God's power through faith. So what that means is watchfulness is not some kind of, like, anxious uncertainty about final salvation, but instead it is, like, this disciplined fidelity in the means God has appointed. Ordinary Means Of Grace Jesse Schwamb: And what are those means? Like, I feel like this is where everybody just shouts back, "Ordinary means." You know what I mean? When I say means- ... you say ordinary. Means- Or I should, I should say it the other way around. Ordinary. But this idea that, like, what are those things God has put into our lives, has appointed for us to use, has commanded us to up- obtain for ourselves by his power? It's prayer, it's the word, it's the sacraments. It's a mutual watchfulness within that visible church like you were just describing, and it's precisely because the timing of Christ's return has been sovereignly withheld from creaturely knowledge. So there's actually a lot in this that I think assuages that, that really sensitive Christian conscience, which is like, "Well, are you telling me I have to do more?" That's not what we're saying at all. We're, we're saying, "Do the things which God has empowered you to do." And guess what? Those things [00:38:00] are just very chill, very ordinary things that take on extraordinary influence and power in our lives by the work of the Holy Spirit. So again, it's like this whole thing of saying, like, when we work, we work. When we pray, God works. It's the same kind of thing here. There is work to be done. There is a watchfulness to undertake in all the activities of our lives. But it is not like whatever the, again, the equivalent, like, is of, like, spiritual, I don't know, like shots of espresso and, and Celsius to just try to, like, by all accounts, by your own power, somehow just not sleep. Uh- Yeah ... not sleeping is not what this text is about. It's actually about being aware, worshiping in awareness around all the things, and then devoting ourselves to all the stuff that we keep talking about, to praying, to studies in the scripture, to having family devotions and time of worship, to baptism, and to the Lord's Supper. That's what watchfulness is all about.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:39:00] Yeah, and I, I think, um, you know, this is again I do think this parable has more to do with the idea of kinda getting after it. I, I think that's how we usually talk about it, like getting after holiness. Yeah, it is. Um, I, I think this parable has more to do with that than some of the other parables with similar language that we've talked about. But I, I also think, um, as Reformed Christians, uh, we get the, we get the cart before the horse if we think that even though that's what it's about, that that somehow places the onus on us to do the good works, right? Right. The good works are prepared for us in advance that we might walk in them. And, uh, i- it's not even right to say, like, our responsibility is to walk in them. That's not even quite right theologically. Like, we are going to walk in them. Like, that's, that's the thing, is the doorkeeper is given this charge. He's commanded to stay awake, and in good Augustinian fashion, it's really more along the [00:40:00] lines es- of the doorkeeper is made to stay awake because he's been commanded to. Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's right.  Tony Arsenal: And I think that's, that's really key.  Fruit Checking And Assurance Tony Arsenal: And yes, there is some- something to say for, uh, fruit checking. And I, I know that there are probably some in our audience that just, like, threw up in their mouth a little bit when I said that. Um, but the, the reality is, a lack of fruit, uh, i- in our life, and by fruit I'm talking about good works. Primarily I'm talking about the ordinary means of grace, like you said. A, a person who is refusing to avail themselves of the ordinary means of grace, right? Right on. Regular church attendance, prayer- Right ... the sacraments, Bible reading, um, sitting under the preaching of the Word, fellowship with other believers. Um, I would even say to some extent regular s- regular financial support of the Church. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I... There, there are times where that may not be, uh, the most feasible thing, and so that's a decision between you and the Holy Spirit and for you to discuss with your pastor. [00:41:00] But, but the reality is God has given us these ordinary means of grace as a gift and as a way to nourish and support us. When we refuse to take part in those, and I use the word refuse intentionally, when a person refuses to attend church, for the most part most of us who have had a season where we don't, don't attend church, and I, I had a long season when I was in college where I just didn't attend church. There was no good reason for it. I just didn't do it. And if I'm being really honest, it was 'cause at that time in my life I had some sinful patterns that I didn't wanna face up to, right? That's usually what it boils down to.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Um, but for those of us who d- who refuse to, uh, take part and to avail ourselves of the ordinary means of grace, that should really cause us to question our salvation. Not because the ordinary means of grace cause our salvation, but because the ordinary means of grace are exactly as they're called. Exactly. They're the ordinary means by which God delivers His grace to us. So if we're refusing to receive God's grace, it means we're refusing to receive God's grace. And the only people ultimately who are not forgiven are [00:42:00] those who receive to ref- you know, refuse to receive God's grace. So I think this, this passage has more to do with us in an indi- sort of on the individual level, us being actively engaged and partaking in the, uh, the administration of the covenant of grace, to use a more technical term, right? The administration of the covenant of the grace are the visible means of grace. If we refuse to be baptized, if we refuse to partake of the Lord's supper, if we refuse to attend church and to sit under the preaching of the word and to pray, then we are, we are turning down God's offer of grace. That's right. We're taking the gift that He desires to give us, and we're saying, "No thank you." Well, when we phrase it that way, it's a flat rejection of God's grace that we're engaged in.  Church Mission And Readiness Tony Arsenal: But on a, on a sort of like big picture scale I think it has to do also along with these lines that I'm talking about of the Church itself being ready. Well, how does the Church prepare itself for Christ's [00:43:00] return? Again, the ordinary means of grace, right? We prepare ourselves by teaching and ministering, right? C- I think it's Colossians 1:28. If I was on Reformed Forum, I'd have this memorized 'cause it's their, like, theme verse. But, like, equipping every person for the ministry of Christ, equipping every person, making sure every person is, uh, mature and ready. Like, all of those things come together as the primary mission of the Church. And I know this is gonna trigger some people, but, like, evangelism is not the primary mission of the Church. The primary mission of the Church is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, which takes place mostly on the Lord's day. I think all of that, the personal dimension, the corporate dimension, all of that coalesces in this command to be watchful, to stay awake, to be on guard, to s- be about the task, to be in charge of the commands you've been given. All of those different concepts come together in what Christ is talking about here in verse 37 when He says, "I say to you, I say to all, [00:44:00] stay awake." Like- Right ... that's what we're talking about. So it's not as simple as personal piety. It's probably not as complicated as some sort of, like, I don't know, least of these, feed-the-poor schema that happens sometimes. All of that happens. It really is just about the Church being the Church and doing the things the Church does, both on the individual level, but also on the corporate level. Perseverance And Scriptural Warnings Jesse Schwamb: And that's why, as loved ones of God, then we can come to verse 36, which is the full warning, and we actually read it as a great comfort. So it says, "Lest he come suddenly and find you asleep." And after all we're talking about here, the way I read this warning against complacency is entirely consistent with, instead of being contradictory to, the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. Because perseverance is not fatalism, and I'm just... I'm still learning this, loved ones. Like, and even here, what I marvel at is the warnings of scripture are themselves among the ordinary means by which God preserves His people. So I go back to the Westminster [00:45:00] Confession of Faith chapter 17, which notes that, "Believers may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, fall into grievous sins, and so incur God's displeasure, even while never finally falling from grace." So that sobering possibility of, of quote-unquote being found asleep I think functions pastorally not to threaten the loss of the election, of the elect, but to press home I think, like, the seriousness of watchfulness as the fruit and evidence of genuine faith, which is what you're talking about. That, that's kind of like the Reformed theological jam in a sense, and that's why, where I think we'd anchor like James 2, Hebrews 3 and 4. There is, like, a call of the necessity of perseverance in the means as the mark of the true as opposed to be merely, of course, like some kind of profession of discipleship. The visible church, and we talked about this too, mixed as it is, is here warned that the formal membership in the household is no substitute for actual wakefulness. And so I hope we see that warning as not something [00:46:00] that's like, "Well, you gotta, you gotta check yourself every day 'cause if you just step out of line once, if you fall asleep at any little thing, then it just goes to show you that you weren't serious enough." Instead, it's like you said, Tony, like even the warning itself is proof positive that God will save, that He arrests, that He holds everything firm and secure, and that even the setting of the table or the preparing of the good works and then the way in which you walk in them, we might ask, how is it that you are even walking? Yeah. And so even this is all an act of God, whether we speak about that, uh, that justification, that initial positional sanctification, and even the progressive frame as well is all f- happens here because God is in fact doing that good work. So it's a good warning because it reminds us that what's, I think, the particular and special dispensation of the Christian is that in this falling asleep, as the Westminster Confession says, it may mean that we fall even into grievous sins. We're incurring God's displeasure. We're not disrupting our [00:47:00] identity in Christ, but we are disrupting our harmony with Christ. Yes. And so we always want to seek and to live in that kind of beautiful harmony where there is, I think, obedience for a word. There is a special fellowship that comes from being close to God in this way. We should always strive after that and want that very thing, but at no point does the Christian who even falls into grievous sins, as the Confession reminds us, fall outside of God's mercy and grace. Merely we fall outside of God's pleasure, and we r- we're finally returned to grace by His power in our lives, whi- which He Himself affects so that even in our fall, even in our death every day, there is a little bit of resurrection that restores us. Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Rapture Ready Misreadings Tony Arsenal: Yeah, another way, um, another way to put this, um, and I, I don't mean to trugger, trig- to trigger, uh, our dispensationalist friends and family who are listening to the show, um, there are I will speak from my own experience coming out of a dispensationalist framework when I was in [00:48:00] high school and early college. Um, there was a lot of focus on being, quote, "Rapture ready." And I, I think sometimes we can read parables like this to think that stay awake means be Rapture ready. And what that means is, like, in some forms of dispensationalism, and I think probably many forms of dispensationalism, there's this idea that, like, if you're not right with God in, in this sense you're talking about, if, like, you're in disharmony with God when the Rapture comes, you may ultimately be saved, but you're not gonna be saved by the Rapture, which means you're gonna have to deal with the tribulation, and that's no good. So, like, if your piety's not on point when the Rapture happens, all your friends are gonna be taken away, and you're gonna be left behind, right? I don't think it's too much of a characteristic- a caricature to talk about Left Behind when there's an entire dispensational book series about this, right? Right. The whole concept behind the Left Behind novel is that it's populated by people who thought they were Christians who weren't. Uh, and some of [00:49:00] those are because they had a false profession of faith. Some of them were just back- what, what a lot of people would just call backslidden Baptists or backslidden Christians who, who had a genuine profession of faith but just weren't living in a holy fashion. I think we can sometimes read this, whether we're dispensationalists or not, we can read these kinds of parables in light of Rapture readiness. I think it's, it's both more assuring and also infinitely more severe than that. Right. It's not about Rapture ready. It's about whether you're saved or not. Right. Whether you are in the kingdom of God, whether you are among the household of believers. All of the people in view in this parable are members of the master's household, right? Uh, they're all his servants. So it's not as though there are some who are, um, outside of his family that are be given, being given a command to be watchful. There's also no consequence implied for the doorkeeper if somehow he's not watchful. It's more along the lines of if you're in the faith, if you are the doorkeeper or a [00:50:00] doorkeeper in the g- in the king's house, then you ought to be watchful because that's what you do. And so there's no, like, implied consequence. There's no assumption that the doorkeeper somehow won't be watchful. So I think if there's any sort of, like, gut check, status check that needs to happen, it's really more along the lines of are we in the Lord's household or are we not? That's right. That's right. And I think that's, that's what you're getting at. If we're in the Lord's household, if we're members of his house, if we're servants in his kingdom, then we will be awake when the time comes. We will be awake when he returns.  Rooster Crow And Passion Echoes Tony Arsenal: And the other thing, and I'll just throw this out there maybe as a tease. I don't, I don't think there's enough here for us to come back to it next week, uh, although I've been wrong before, and sometimes Jesse and I have conversations right after that turn into the next episode. I think it's really interesting- I don't know if you ran into this when you were reading it, but- Yeah ... verse 35: "Therefore stay awake, for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening or at [00:51:00] midnight or when the rooster crows," that's a very interesting phrase to me- It is, yeah ... "or in the morning." It's just another chapter or two when- Yeah ... we see the disciples fall asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane, right? Gethsemane. Um, the disciples fall asleep. We see language of the watches, right? The, the hours that Christ is alive and dies on the cross are associated with the watches. Right. And then of course the rooster crowing. And it's a very well-known, um, uh, I, I don't wanna call it a fact 'cause that might be too strong, but it's a pretty accepted, uh, theory in, in the sort of, uh, academic understanding of the, the authors of the Gospels that Mark, uh, Mark actually represents Peter's testimony. That the sort of a- apostolic imprimatur of the Gospel of Mark is actually that M- John Mark, probably while he was ministering with Peter, was being told these, this account, and he's collecting Peter's, Peter's [00:52:00] statements on the events of the Gospel It is very interesting to me that this phrase about the rooster crowing associated with being watchful and ready in the service of the master- Yep would appear particularly in the gospel that's asso- associated with Peter. Right. And I'll throw that out there just as maybe food for a discussion- ... in our Telegram chat, but I do think e- even that is sort of for our benefit, right? Right. We're not talking about, uh, this isn't a parable about what happens when you betray Jesus and hang yourself with a rope, right? This isn't, this isn't Judas who never was a believer. If we're drawing this peril- parallel, this is a parable about Peter, or related to Peter's experience, uh, who was restored, who ultimately had a moment of sleepiness, I guess, both physically and, you know, spiritually here. Had a moment of, of sleepiness, but ultimately was awake when the master came. That's right. And I think, like, there's something there for us to tease out, and, and again, [00:53:00] maybe we'll leave that for the Telegram chat. Maybe that's just for your own personal study. I've done zero commentary work, so maybe this is a connection that I feel- ... is super novel, but actually everyone else makes. Um, but I just thought it was really interesting how closely that language, that sequence of the watchfulness, the watch, sleepiness, awakefulness, and the rooster crows, how closely that lines up to the events that w- would be if we were going through Mark sequentially- Yep ... we would be encountering in just a couple chapters, right? In just chapter 15. They're coming up. Um, we're talking about this exact thing. So it's very interesting to me, is it... The Holy Spirit is amazing in how He has put together this. Yes. Even if, even if that is a super tenuous connection, it's still a connection. And- Agreed ... I have a tough time thinking anyone who's familiar with the, the passion accounts would read this and not go, "Woo." That's a lot of language from the passion account. It's a lot of- Yes ... language related to what happened in just a few chapters.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes. I'm with you. Like we said, there's so much that's within these couple of verses, and you'd have to think if you were reading this with brand-new eyes, [00:54:00] with eyes that never seen this text before, and you were just going straight through, you'd come in just a few short chapters to that whole narrative in Gethsemane and be like, "What? Did he, didn't he just, didn't this guy Jesus just say to them- Like be watchful, stay awake. And here they're... Isn't that ironic? Here they are in the garden, and he said- Yeah ... to them again, "Stay awake." They fall asleep. He comes back, he's like, "Could you not watch for one

Did you know: Today's dentists are waiting five years longer to buy a practice than they were a generation ago? Kiera is joined by Brian Hanks of Dental Buyer Advocates to talk about delayed ownership traps and why the future of private practice is an encouraging one (Brian shares numerous data points to back that up). They also touch on overcoming fears and all the information out there that makes everyone seem more prepared for business ownership than they actually are, and how to go about buying a practice while asking the right questions. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team Listeners, this is Kiera, and today is an awesome day. I am so excited to be podcasting with one of my favorite humans. He and I have spoken across the country together. We go to different things, we share clients together. I have Brian Hanks, the owner of Dental Dental Buyer Advocates. And today we're gonna talk about like delayed ownership trap because I think so many people get stuck into this of should I buy, should I not buy? And Brian and I are just here to have a fun rift. So, Brian, welcome to the show today. How are you?   Brian Hanks (00:28) So nice to be back, Kiera. You're one of my favorite people too. Thank you for having me.   Kiera (00:32) Of course. I'm excited, Brian. It's a good time. It's been a hot minute since we podcasted together. So it's time, it's time to talk about this. Because when we were chatting about episodes, you were saying that dentists are now waiting like five years longer to buy a practice than they were a generation ago, which is fascinating to me because I've been on this like whole hot to trap of like, do people buy? Are DSOs taking over? Like, is there still money to be made in private practice? Like literally my chiropractor and I were talking about this the other day because she's like,   My dentist told me that they were like not able to make any money. And I was like, well, they sh just give them my card. Like private practice to me is still one of the best businesses and industries, even if you have to buy a top dollar right now. and so just like super fascinating to talk about like delaying that purchasing, why people do it. But Brian, I've jumped right in and pretended like everybody knows who you are. Brian, give us a little intro of like who you are, how you got into Dental Buyer Advocates, what your background is, and then like let's talk about to delay or not delay buying a practice.   Brian Hanks (01:29) Sure.   Yeah, I one of my favorite stories. I'm an ex-Wall Street guy, so I'm a reformed Wall Streeter. And my father-in-law is a dentist. And I would watch these Wall Street people come in and like sell a very aggressive investments. And when they went bust, they would turn around and sell the crappy investments to dentists who at the time my was my father in law. Active practice, he lived in the Seattle area. And anyway, I went to go work for a dental CPA in the Dallas area. I went to work for another one. So I'm I've lived in the accounting world, Kiera.   And when I was in that world, I got younger dentists who were in the pro they were the associates and they were asking accounting questions and tax questions and you know financial planning questions. And inevitably they would come back to dental practice ownership. Like, how do I do this? How much do I pay? Is   Kiera (02:13) Yeah.   Brian Hanks (02:13) is this a good deal? And so I went looking for the book. I was like, well, where's the book? I was on Amazon, I was other places. There was no book. And I thought, all right, well, let me try writing this book. Famous Last Words, by the way, it's way harder than you assume. But the book is called.   Very creatively, How To Buy A Dental Practice. And that helped me start my own business. And that's   Kiera (02:30) I like it.   Brian Hanks (02:33) what I do. I I only help buyers of dental practices. And, you know, Kiera, my business is good, your business is good. Dentist business, we can talk about why the future of private practice is very bright. I can give you some stats and   Kiera (02:46) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (02:46) statistics. But one of the interesting, the most interesting facts for me is Health Policy Institute has data that shows that.   Dentists get into ownership, like they they end up in ownership. Okay, so I'll give you like they've broken it down by like graduation rates. So like the the   Kiera (03:07) And what I   Brian Hanks (03:08) dental school grads from 1990 and then 1995, and everybody between 95 and 2000, so and so forth. So they have these like vintages of graduates. And   Kiera (03:16) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (03:17) very reliably, they're showing that nine out of ten dentists, of which you know there's 203,000 in the US, nine out of ten end up in ownership.   At some point in their career. But like you said,   Kiera (03:27) Fascinating.   Brian Hanks (03:28) they're waiting longer to do it. And I think that's what we're going to talk about.   Kiera (03:32) Yeah. Which like again, I think people are scared. So many students I worked at Midwestern and they're like, Kiera, should I buy? Should I go associate? And I was like, listen, you're just delaying the inevitable so like get in there and get it done. Now, I like always throw an asterisk on that. Like if you're not good at your hand skills, like yeah, go go associate for a hot minute. like if you aren't confident with your speed and with case acceptance and like presenting, that's gonna be but I'll tell you there is nothing more thrilling than throwing yourself into a business that you have to produce for.   You learn case acceptance really freaking fast. Like, ask me how I know. We surely did that. Like I took a student, we took our first practice from 500,000 to 2.4 million in nine months. Like she was a she was a power producer. Do I have an office right now that just bought a practice less than a year ago? We're already on track for two and a half million. Yes. Like there are a lot of success stories from that small town. It's not like they were just given the keys to the kingdom. Like they've had to work for it, they've had to build things. They don't have full schedules. But   I just, I don't know. I'm the same way and I I don't know. I'm I'm at a space of but do what makes you happy. Like, do not go   Brian Hanks (04:37) Yeah.   Kiera (04:38) own a practice and make less than being an associate. That's like a hard line for me too. I'm like, 'cause if you're gonna like not be a good business owner, keep associating. But I   Brian Hanks (04:43) No. Yeah.   Kiera (04:46) agree, I feel like the trajectory of dentists is always to purchase. Like they want their own stamp, they want their name on the building. I will also highly recommend don't put your name on the building. Like that's really fun and not scalable. Ask me again how I know that. Like   Cura's dental consulting was real fun till it wasn't. Like the things you the things you evolve on, but truly I I'm excited to hear why you think people are delaying, what that's costing them. Brian, I love that you always come with a bunch of stats and facts. And I love that you named your book, like How To Buy A Dental Practice. That's what people want to know. so it sometimes simple is no, that is the best.   Brian Hanks (05:13) I know. I just yeah. I'm not the best at marketing, right? So yeah, like we we call Kiera when we need   marketing advice. So okay.   Kiera (05:24) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (05:24) So Kiera, here are some more stats for you.   Kiera (05:28) Okay, ready?   Brian Hanks (05:29) the average owner, dentist, makes $151,000 than the average more than the average associate. Okay, 151. Now that's   Kiera (05:37) I was like, hold on, 151   is bad. That's more than if you're being an associate. You're gonna make 151,000 more. Okay.   Brian Hanks (05:43) Yep. Yeah. And think about why   that is. Yep. That's obviously the you're taking on the risk. You're taking on the the pain and suffering of being an owner, right? So there's some compensation involved in   Kiera (05:51) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (05:52) that. Those are two medians, right? And there is a bell curve around both of those numbers. So is it possible   Kiera (05:57) Course.   Brian Hanks (05:58) to make less as an associate? Yes. Yeah. Is it possible   to make a hell   Kiera (06:01) Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.   Brian Hanks (06:02) of a lot more than $151,000 more than an associate? Absolutely, yes, right. So there's there's room on both end of the ends of those those bell curves. but think about   So here's why I one of the data points why I think private practice ownership and dentistry is still it's bright and it's getting brighter. Is you think about the average associate you talk to, Kiera, the average associate I talk to when we're standing around a cocktail party or at mid mid the you know, wherever, some conference, Yankee, Midwestern.   Kiera (06:30) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (06:31) And I will tell you the average associate that I talk to isn't saying, gosh, Brian, you know what? I love my boss. I love the DSO I'm working for.   I love my hours. I love the insurances we take, the assistant they force me to use, I love her, right? It's the future of private practice dentistry is bright because dentists are people. And people generally like   Kiera (06:52) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (06:52) a little bit of control over their career if they can get it. And dentists absolutely can get it. So that's one of the data points that   Kiera (06:55) Yeah.   Brian Hanks (06:58) I love. Now, are dentists scared to get into ownership? And do higher on average student loan balances scare them marginally more than they did 10 years ago, 20 years ago? For sure.   Yep, absolutely. Here's the mistake   Kiera (07:11) Absolutely.   Brian Hanks (07:11) they make. So I'll give the associates listening or the students or whoever it is that's maybe telling you, Kiera, or telling me, or they're telling their, you know, the the person next to them on the treadmill at the gym while they're listening to this, like, sure, Brian, easy for you to say, but I don't feel ready. Right? I haven't taken all of Care's courses.   Kiera (07:30) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (07:31) I haven't, I don't know how you know, I'm not the pro at treatment planning. My hands beat because you I I want to take this implant course first, right?   You come up, your brain comes up with all these excuses of why you don't feel ready. And I'm not gonna dismiss your feelings. I think your   Kiera (07:45) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (07:46) feelings are valid. You should listen to them, but don't here here's another thing to consider in addition to your feelings. Is you know how there were like a hundred people in your dental school class, probably ish, right? And 10 of whom you would never let near your teeth. Like you watch them go through all four years of dental school and you're like,   Okay, of those 10 over there, like they're never getting, they're never giving me a shot. They're never in that nothing, right?   Kiera (08:10) Yep.   Brian Hanks (08:10) Because I guarantee you, nine out of ten of those dentists, they already own their practice. They're not bankrupt. They're making more money than you,   Kiera (08:16) Yeah.   Brian Hanks (08:17) and they are killing it. Meanwhile, you're scared to run a practice. And those, if   Kiera (08:22) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (08:22) those jokers can figure it out, you can figure it out.   Kiera (08:26) Totally. Well, and I think also on there like, Brian, let's be real. Is anybody ready to be a business owner? Like I wasn't, I'm sure you weren't.   Brian Hanks (08:31) Nope. Nope.   Kiera (08:33) I think are people ready to be parents? The answer is no. Like nobody feels ready for that. Were you ready when you went into dental school? The answer's no. I think that there's this imposter syndrome that hits us all that we think, like, give me a little more time and I'm gonna get ready. Give me a little more time. And I will say that like the brass taxes, you jump into owning a business and you figure it out. Now, should you listen to some podcasts? Should you do some things? Like for sure.   But   like how many consultants and coaches are there that literally are gonna like grab your hand, walk you through, and make sure you don't make the mistakes? Like how many people like yourself are gonna walk you through buying the practice to where it's an actually great practice? I I think that I think there's more help today. Now, do I think there's a lot of noise and a lot of people that might be like posturing out there saying that they know what they're doing? Yes. So make sure you like vet them a little bit before you go and jump on a bandwagon of somebody, like someone who's been there, done that, done that successfully multiple times is who I'd bet on. But like   We are in such a day and age where there is so much information out there. You need to be a great clinician. We're gonna teach you how to be a great business owner. And as long as you're comfortable realizing that you've got to learn that side of it, that's to me, like if you're a good producer and you're a good human, like go for it. There's dentistry is so fun owning and practice because the sky is the limit. And ultimately there is no cap on what you're able to do, what you're able to produce, how you're able to do it.   And I think that there are very few careers out there, very few job opportunities that really are the sky's limit. Now, remember how I told you about that dentist who bought their own practice. They're now doing like two fifty this year, whatever they're he was making five hundred thousand as an associate. And so this   Brian Hanks (10:06) Yeah. Hi Bart.   Kiera (10:08) is one where like people be like, Well, gosh, like, you know, he went from five hundred thousand and now he's at a two point, I think he's gonna end around two to two point four this year. But like he had a great associateship. And so I think   There is still this just like uncanny, unnatural desire that you want to just own, you want to build. And I think dentistry is also if I look at like banks, they lend to dental practices, like almost guaranteed, like they have a they're pretty lucrative with like just shelling money out to your dental practice. And I'm like, if banks are willing to back, you've got to also see that your dental practice, like you have the greatest opportunity of not failing.   of any business venture you're going to do. Why is private equity coming in strong? Because they know dental practices are almost bulletproof of an investment to have. So when I look at all those reasons, I agree with you, Brian. People don't feel like they're ready, but I'm like, you're never gonna feel ready. But you have so many things stacking in your favor to help you be successful.   Brian Hanks (11:03) At the beginning of that, I   I don't I don't want people to miss that. If they missed the wisdom that Kiera just shared at the beginning of that, as she said, yeah, you use parenting. I think you use business ownership as some advice. Like I I just want to repeat what you said because it's so important. Dentistry is not like, I don't know, Kiera, scuba diving, right? If you go get scuba certified, you like practice in the pool. And then they like make you, you know, they learn, you know, you you learn taking the regulator out of your mouth and putting it back in and all that. And I imagine like dentists think   ownership, like there's gonna be some course I can take that's gonna prepare me for ownership kinda like scuba certification. That's like you gotta help me come up with   Kiera (11:38) Yeah.   Brian Hanks (11:39) a better example, but it's not it's not true. It's like parenting,   Kiera (11:42) I got you.   Brian Hanks (11:42) it's like marriage. It's like I don't know, business ownership, whatever it is. Like the the thing that prepares you for it is just doing it. Just just   try it out.   Kiera (11:50) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (11:50) Yep.   Kiera (11:51) Well, and I think Brian, to that point, like the analogy is I think people think business ownership is a skill that can be learned in a one, two, three step versus like marriage, relationships, child, like being parents, business ownership. It's an evolution of soul and it's a it's a creating of who you are. It is not a skill. Like there are skill points to it, like learning to read a p PL, learning how what profitability is.   But business ownership in and of itself, I had a friend she's like, Kiera, you have to have kids. Like it will strip you down to your core and it will like show things to you that you've never had. And I said, Have you ever been a business owner? Cause I'll tell you that I'm pretty confident. I've got a lot of that stripping over here that's like breaking me down to my utter like most. But I think we think business ownership and running a practice, I'm not here to say that there's not like tactical pieces and we've broken it down. Like our team actually just went through this something. I'm like, there's really like   10 things that you need as systems that are really gonna make or break it. And you gotta know a couple of like core foundations and you got to know your numbers. Like beyond that, that's kind of your checklist. But to your point of like scuba diving or cooking or whatever, it's not this like checklist skill that you're going to have. And so I think, like you said, you're gonna look for this course. But I'm like, the course is life, the course is doing it, the course is going through it. And I think you've got to have the confidence of are you confident in you that no matter what comes your way, you're gonna be able to figure it out. And if so, business ownership is there for you.   And I would give more confidence to you than you give yourself. I've watched a lot of students. I worked at Midwestern. To your point of those 10 students, there was probably like 50 of them. Sorry, Midwestern grads, I was not letting any of you touch my mouth. Like genuinely, you needed a few years to practice and I'm not your practicey. But like I think I think you're more equipped than you give yourself credit for. Just like you're more equipped for life than you give yourself credit for. And I think business ownership is the same.   Brian Hanks (13:31) So Kiera, let's break down some of those numbers. by the way, better   analogy for business ownership is like health. Do you remember the first time by the way? if you're listening to this, it's pretty obvious if you're watching, but if you're listening, Kiera's in a lot better shape than me. But if if Kiera, I don't know if you had this moment. I I did when I was like 21, 22, that I realized at the I was at the gym, I was like lifting some weights, and I realized, I'll never be done with this. Like you're never done with health. So I think business ownership is a lot like.   Kiera (13:59) I do remember my moment   of that. Mine was   Brian Hanks (14:01) Yeah.   Kiera (14:03) not at the gym, Brian. Mine was actually in Bali, like a little flex there. I remember because   Brian Hanks (14:07) There you go.   Kiera (14:07) I was like having a lot of like knee and hip pain. And I was like, okay, I just have to like work out and then eventually this is gonna get better. And I remember I was walking down to the pool overlooking the ocean. I was like, I'm never gonna be done. Like this is my forever. Like I'm not like I used to just work out to be like skinny and fit. And now I'm like, no, you gotta do this so you don't freaking hurt and you can actually walk and get out of bed. Like it's never gonna end. And   I   sat there and read a book, quite depressed. And then I was like, okay, like this is what it you're right. It's it's a constant evolution of soul. You're never done parenting, you're never done in a relationship. Like you don't hit this, like, check the box, we've got a golden thing. It is a forever perpetual. But I also think that that's what drives dentists to go into that because they are of this obsession of wanting to be the best of the best. You want to get a better prep. You want to get a better crown crop. You go to CE, you're CE junkies out there. Like, this is just another level of obsession.   Of a space that's going to evolve you as a human and it's gonna allow you to grow. So yeah, thanks. That was that was a great that was a great analogy, Brian. Good good call on that one.   Brian Hanks (15:02) Yeah. Yeah, the the   the negative of the health analogy is that you're never done, but the positive is you can break it down. Like you can learn how to do certain lifts a little better. You can learn how to macro track. You can learn diet and exercise.   Kiera (15:14) So you're right, Brian. Like that was a solid call out on the health analogy. Like this is what people are obsessed about, but they want to have that evolution of soul. They want to like I think that that's why dentists are drawn to ownership, but I think they're just afraid. But I'm like, we're also afraid to work out. We're afraid to have kids. We're afraid like, so don't let fear hold you back. I think it's just a like, I don't know. It doesn't be like Nike, just do it, guys. Like that sounds like terrible business advice on my side.   Brian Hanks (15:37) Well just do it and but remember   remember how good you weren't at at all the clinical stuff that you're really   Kiera (15:44) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (15:44) good at now, right? So dentists, the the superpower that most dentists have is that attention to detail, like the obsession over the details and and the the minutiae. And and as a patient, like I gotta go to filling next week, and as a patient, I want my sister thinking about all of the all of the little details, right? and   Kiera (16:04) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (16:04) that superpower is real.   And I want the density like lean into it. If you're listening to this and that evolution of soul that that Kiera's talking about, part of that evolution for you is just remembering that that superpower that you have comes like there's another side to that coin. It comes with a downside. And the downside is the overthinking when you're not.   You know you're not that good at a thing. And if you know you're not that good at finding a dental practice to buy, analyzing a dental practice to buy, actually buying that practice, applying for a loan, like talking to lawyers, all those things, your brain is gonna start to spin a little bit. And j but but but here's the good news: your brain spun a thousand times already. Remember that first time they opened up the little mannequin to like practice, like prepping a crown or something, and you were like, How do I even do this? Right.   Kiera (16:49) Dexter, their little type   it on.   Brian Hanks (16:51) Yeah, like seriously, like you figure this out. You like and if the dentists that I deal with they're the smartest people on the planet, they're awesome. And and so if you can figure that stuff out,   Kiera (17:02) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (17:02) my gosh, like first of all, hire somebody else like you to just be amazing for you in all the areas that you aren't amazing, and just remember that it doesn't this isn't rocket science. yeah, so you can figure this stuff out.   Kiera (17:14) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (17:14) But okay, so speaking of minutia, speaking of details, I gave you the hundred and fifty one thousand dollar number.   Okay, here I did some math. I'm an accountant. I I know I know spreadsheets.   Kiera (17:22) Yeah.   Brian Hanks (17:24) I know how to do like compound interest and some those things. Here's what I did is I just is I said, what's the cost? Okay, if dentists aren't feeling ready, they want to feel like they have their student loans under control, which is smart, right? I'm a financial planner. Yeah, don't get yourself over your skis in debt. That's great. But like, how much is it gonna cost if you're the statistic?   Right. And the statistic is you're you, listener, right now, if you're not a practice owner, are waiting five years longer to own a practice. How much does that five years cost you? Right. And if you do the math, and I did the math at like a 38-year-old dentist versus a 33-year-old dentist. And I assumed that they actually retired at age, both retired at age 60. Okay. So like different lengths of associate part of your career and owner part of your career.   with compound interest, assuming 7% and some of those other variables that I put in there, it was a $1.14 million difference between those two numbers. So don't forget that while you're busy like taking care of your student loans so you can feel ready to buy a practice, it's costing you an enormous amount of money. And Kiera, I would just add, and I'm curious if you can think of any others, I would say the compound.   the compound effect that I'm talking about is not just money, although money is a big part of it. I think the compound effect applies to other things. Like how many more times and at bats would you have for treatment planning, for managing that difficult assistant, teaching someone how to answer the phones better, hiring, firing. Like there's a compound effect on all of those behavioral things too and and it's gonna cost you some money. So any thoughts on that?   Kiera (19:04) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, I think it's a I I was fascinated. I'm so glad that you went into the 1.1 because we had talked about that pre-show and I was just very fascinated of like, my gosh, like that's so much for people. That's so many things. Like there's a financial dollar amount, which I love because I think dentists really do. Like that's an easy one for me to be like, gosh, like me delaying this decision can cost me that much. But I think like there's also you still have to go through the   growth of learning to run a business. So not only is there a financial delay, but there's also the growth of you getting good at running a business and having it profitable and being able to make this thing run longer. And then you have more opportunities like I think about yourself. And the longer you're able to build this practice and like maybe do multiple like there's to me that's like such a it's fascinating. And I think I think the the call to today is there are some people that definitely are meant to be owners and there's some that aren't.   but I think if you have that itch, that scratch, I would really ask yourself, like, what truly are you waiting for? And when are you going to know that you're actually ready? Like you're never going to feel ready to have a child. You're like, I need to get these ducks in a row. Well, those ducks get in a row and then you got seven more ducks that come behind that you're like, I need get those in a row. So to me it'd be if I'm really wanting to buy a practice, what things do I need to have? Cl schedule a call with Brian. Like, I think Brian, this is why we put you on the podcast. I think you're fantastic. You don't put people into weird zones. you're very much like   If that dentist is producing and you don't do those skills and you don't do those type of procedures, don't buy that practice. Like you're not, you're gonna be broke. You're very, very pro making sure people feel confident and that they're able to buy it. And I think it's like buying a home. I remember when I first like went and talked to somebody about buying a home, I had no freaking clue and I wish I would have known more. But like until you start having the conversations, I think it can feel more daunting than it actually is. Then from there, like listen to the podcast, start listening to there's our podcast, there's other podcasts out there, start reading up on how to buy a practice.   But I think to me, there is like two parts to it. One is finding the right practice. Like what you buy, and I say like eyes wide open when you're looking in, and then rosy glasses as soon as you sign on that dotted line, and you're gonna see a lot and you're just gonna deal with it. From there, make sure you got somebody really solid in your corner. Like our practices, as soon as they buy, we take them on. I try to get them two to three months before they close. I wanna make sure we're getting things in. If you don't close on time or things happen, no problem. We're gonna pause you, get your practice in place. Like it's happened twice in hundreds of offices we've helped.   But then, like from there, just have somebody in your corner, somebody who's gonna help you grow in your first year. Most practices are seeing like a 10 to 30% increase in their first year. So if I'm buying a one million dollar practice, that's a hundred to three hundred thousand dollar uptick just by having somebody in the corner. That's very conservative. A million dollar practice, like we are usually growing those exponentially. But like you don't have to stress and freak out. Hey, I'm pinned.   Brian Hanks (21:45) Yep. By the way, I I d pin put a pin, put a pin, Kiera. You you gotta you gotta underline that. Yeah.   That's like underline that, underline it. Like keep going, keep going. I I'm throwing you off. I'm interrupting you, but like I will tell you the   Kiera (21:59) Yeah.   Brian Hanks (21:59) average buyer I talk to on the phone is so scared of patient attrition. They're like, Kiera, like   I'm gonna have 10%, 20%. What if 50% of the patients don't show up? Listen, that's a real fear. By the way, I want you to have that   Kiera (22:10) Right. Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (22:12) fear when you're like doing the margin on my crown, right? Like again, it's your superpower dentist,   Kiera (22:16) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (22:17) but like my stats show exactly the same thing, Kiera is saying I have data to support what Kiera is saying that the average   Kiera (22:22) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (22:24) dentist doesn't they have a negative attrition, which is just two negatives, right? So it's a positive. They the average buyer has more enthusiasm, they've got some more energy, they're gonna update the website, they're gonna maybe get rid of.   That one employee that everybody kind of knew probably s needed to go. And suddenly the practice is just gonna it's gonna take off. Ten to thirty percent. That's yeah, right in line with what I'm seeing. That's awesome. So sorry, I I'm interrupting you, keep going.   Kiera (22:47) Mm-hmm. And I think, no, y you are always this is a conversation. It's not like a dictation. So we're like this is real life rift here. I just think people like when you look at it, I think you're more capable than you think you are. I know that you can get the skills, you can figure it out. Like you said, I'm always like, okay, play the what ifs, lose 50% of your patients. Great. Well, we're gonna take those 50%. And there's ways you can actually grow a practice without even needing to have more new patients.   So   we're gonna maximize all those, we're gonna optimize them. You're going to pull in more people. Like it is one of those things that I'm like, I have yet to have a practice go bankrupt. So knock on wood, like you can be my first challenge accepted. Like I feel very confident that I'm not like, unless you completely botch it and you go into malpractice, like we're probably gonna be just fine. So odds of it happening, so minimal. Are you gonna be a little stressed out? Yeah. Like, welcome to business ownership, but you're also looking for growth, and that's why you're being called to this moment. Like   It will not go away. That itch will not go away until you scratch it. And scratching it, and I love that you said like they're waiting five years and that's a $1.1 million minimum. There's so many other pieces to it. So I think I think a lot of dentists like to have facts. I think a lot of dentists like to have that decision make logical sense. And then we back it up with emotional reasons. And I think it's a wise way to make decisions. But I I would just say if you're even remotely curious, like start going down the path. I know when I was going to buy a house.   I needed to go find out, like, I don't know about lenders, I didn't know about interest rates. I did and until you get into it, just like you wanted to be a dentist, but until you got into it and you started working on that type it on and you learned about dropping the box and like waxing it up and working on Dexter and then taking x-rays, like you didn't know it. And I think most of the time the fear comes from the lack of knowing. I will also say, and I've seen this a lot, Brian, a lot of dentists feel like because I'm a doctor and I'm a dentist, if I buy a practice, I should know how to run a practice. And   Brian Hanks (24:38) And   Kiera (24:38) I just want to like   Scratch that out. I want to tell you that that's not true. But I know a lot of you come in feeling like but Kiera, I'm a dentist, or Brad, I'm a dentist, like I'm a doctor, like people expect me to know this. And I want to say you think people expect you to know that, but the reality is you don't. You just need to be scrappy enough to figure it out. No one's expecting you to know anything. Honestly, you probably know way more than you think you do already. But I I want to just cut that because I know a lot of you have perfectionism like fear of being exposed that you're not that great.   Except that you don't know how to run a business just like you didn't know how to prep a crown, but you learned that and you're gonna learn how to do a business and you're gonna do it exponentially well because you are so detail oriented and you're gonna hire a great team around you, hire great coaches around you that you're literally like it's impossible for you to fail. And so I think Brian, like kudos on it, kudos on the stats, any other thoughts that you have around people and like how do they get to the nitty-gritty of actually going through   Brian Hanks (25:26) Let's get some yeah. I'll hit I'll hit you with more stats. Yeah.   Kiera (25:31) that.   Brian Hanks (25:32) Some more facts for dentists. You and you mentioned the failure rate. What is the actual failure rate in dentistry? It's it's 0.14% of dentists go bankrupt. Okay. And it's always, always, always one   Kiera (25:43) Incredible.   Brian Hanks (25:43) of three things. It's drugs, divorce, and then jail. You know, some kind of felony that doesn't have anything to do with practice. so you stay away from those   Kiera (25:51) Yep.   Brian Hanks (25:52) three things and you're guaranteed not to go bankrupt.   And it so what do dentists actually need to buy practice? We've done a good job of pumping people up, given the rah-rah speech. What do you actually need? You need five things, okay? and I almost guarantee you, unless you're in dental school right now, listening to this, you have the five right now. All right. almost guaranteed. and I'll go from hardest to easiest, Kiera. Okay. Hardest for people to get is you need 50k   Kiera (26:18) Okay.   Brian Hanks (26:19) cash. You need some cash. 50k is your magic number.   Has to be liquid. It's gotta be in a checking   Kiera (26:24) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (26:24) savings money market account. Can't be in an IRA or home equity or something like that. but you need that money to show the bank that you're responsible. And by the way, you don't actually hand that money over to the bank. You keep it. Yeah, the bank just wants to see that you have some money to see that you're responsible.   Kiera (26:39) Mm.   Brian Hanks (26:40) And if you know COVID shuts us down again, can you still pay the bank the bank back a few months? All right. So most people have that.   Kiera (26:46) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (26:47) They've got fifty K or access to fifty K. That's like a side thing we could talk about.   Kiera (26:51) Totally.   Brian Hanks (26:52) Yep.   Kiera (26:52) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (26:53) you need production history. You got to be able to do about 80% of the production of what a seller could do. So million-dollar GP practice, let's say 250 of that Kiera is hygiene, means the doctor was doing 750k a year in production. that means you as an associate need to do about 600   a year   Kiera (27:12) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (27:12) to buy a million-dollar practice. Okay. Most associates listening, you know, public health, military, there are some special exceptions where we need to learn how to count.   procedures and things   Kiera (27:22) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (27:23) like that. But most associates, they can do 600 to buy a million dollar practice. Okay, the 80%. most dentists don't have any problem with numbers threes and four, number three and four. Number three is you got to have a credit score over 680. It's pretty low. And it's a green light, red light. 681 credit score gets you the same interest rate as an 820. And and then you need a clean credit history is number four. And so no bankruptcies, no short sales, or a really good story.   Behind a bankruptcy or short sale. And then you need one year of experience out of dental school or a residency program. GPR, AEGD, specialty program, whatever it is. If you're in a residency program, you could buy a practice the day you get out of your residency. So that's it. And so technically, Kiera, you need number six. Number six is you need a practice to buy. And I'll be I'll be really blunt with people, that's the   Kiera (28:17) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (28:17) hardest step.   Finding a good practice to buy is the hardest thing because everybody   Kiera (28:21) I agree.   Brian Hanks (28:22) wants to look for the practice in their pajamas. They think it's like buying a house. Like I'm gonna go on the MLS and I'm gonna look   Kiera (28:28) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (28:28) for a dental practice. There is no such thing as the DLS, there's no dental listing service. And so if you're in your pajamas looking for a practice to buy, it's   Kiera (28:34) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (28:36) not there. Sometimes it is, which is why people do it, but it's almost certainly not there, especially in the city you want to live right now. and so we'll have a podcast episode about how to   Find a practice well. But the sh here's the short version is you go talk to dentists. Build a network of dentists that know like and trust you. That's the   Six things and and most associates have And so attitude, like don't let us stop you, don't be scared. Like we did the like pump you up version of the speech. And here's the facts to back that up, is it's not actually that hard. Like with those six things, banks will not only give you a hundred percent of the purchase price, they'll give you a hundred percent of the purchase price, and then they'll hand you another seventy-five K in cash just to make sure you don't run out of money on the first day. Sometimes it's a hundred K. I've seen d banks give two hundred thousand dollars in cash.   Kiera (29:21) Mm-hmm.   Brian Hanks (29:21) before they even walk through the doors with you know the key in hand as an owner. So it's awesome. If if you're thinking about ownership and nine out of ten dentists are at some point in their career, it's it's really not it's not it's simple. It's not necessarily easy, but it's simple.   Kiera (29:41) Yeah. And Brian, even on the I've been talking to the Bank of America guys, and they were like, we even give like thirty to forty thousand to a new startup practice for consulting fees in addition to our working capital because   Brian Hanks (29:52) Yeah.   Kiera (29:53) we know that it's also going to help grow them. So there's so many pieces, and I think you've just listed off like really, I agree, like finding the practice and like sending out the postcards, getting to know the network, finding the dentist, like the practice that actually works for you, finding a seller that wants to sell for the price that you want.   I agree with you 100%. That is the hardest part. But I think Brian, you did an incredible job of breaking this down from the like, okay, you're probably gonna do it. Nine out of ten is do buy that. What are the exact steps that I need to take for this? And then I agree with you. Like, absolutely a follow-up podcast on like how to actually find a practice. But Brian, I'm curious if people are interested, like they want to start connecting and like this is what you do. And I know you guys are really generous with your time. How do people connect in with you to like even start the process? Like, again, I feel like curiosity.   Is the best place to be. Like let's just ask the questions. Let's figure it out. So Brian, how do people get connected in with you?   Brian Hanks (30:41) Pop over to Amazon, type in How To Buy A Dental Practice. That's the book. if you want, by the way, if you want a cheaper copy, you can go to the website. The website is DentalBuyerAdvocates.com. I'm happy to ship it to you like as a publisher copy, no strings attached. but yeah, just pop over to Amazon, DentalBuyerAdvocates.com. Care if people want to email me directly. I always offer this. And it's so fascinating to me how few people actually take me up on it. I would be more than happy to have a half an hour conversation with whoever you are, free of charge.   Send me an email, Brian@BrianHanks.com. It's B-R-I-A-N and Hanks like Tom Hanks. So yeah, that's how you get a hold of me.   Kiera (31:20) Amazing.   Well, Brian, thank you for breaking this down and for all of you listening. I hope that today was just a really insightful podcast for you. I hope it gave you the facts to back it up. I hope it gave you the emotional piece. I hope it gave you kind of the like step by step by step of how to get there. I'm so grateful for Brian being here. Everybody connect in with him. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Ty Gibbs is officially a two-time NASCAR Cup Series winner! Gibbs conquered Iowa Speedway to score the second victory of his Cup Series career, and Kerry Murphey and Toby Christie are breaking down everything from a wild weekend in Iowa on this edition of The Final Lap Weekly. Then it's time for the NASCAR News of the Week from TobyChristie.com, and there's plenty to unpack. Kyle Busch's iconic M&M's Toyota is making a return — sort of — as NASCAR prepares for a nostalgic tribute that longtime Rowdy fans are going to love. Denny Hamlin wanted different brakes for Iowa, but NASCAR apparently wasn't interested in letting that happen. We dig into the controversy surrounding NASCAR allegedly threatening to create a “made-up rule” to prevent the change and what that could mean for teams trying to improve their cars. The NASCAR Cup Series point standings are getting shaken up, and one of the biggest stories is Tyler Reddick's sudden plunge down the standings. How much trouble is he really in as the season heats up? Then we turn our attention to New Hampshire Motor Speedway for a complete weekend preview. Who should thrive at the Magic Mile, which teams need a huge result, and could we see another surprise winner? Plus, Rowdy Dragon returns with his Fantasy NASCAR Picks for New Hampshire, giving you the drivers you need to consider before locking in your fantasy lineup. Hosted by Kerry Murphey and Toby Christie, The Final Lap Weekly delivers NASCAR race reactions, breaking news, analysis, controversy, fantasy NASCAR picks, and previews every week. NASCAR News Provided By: http://tobychristie.com -Listen on Spotify -Listen on Apple Podcasts -Click To Play Fantasy NASCAR With Us!  -Giving Fun Is Here: Patreon.com/thefinallap Ty Gibbs, Ty Gibbs Iowa win, Ty Gibbs second career win, Iowa Speedway NASCAR, NASCAR Iowa 2026, NASCAR Cup Series, NASCAR podcast, NASCAR news, NASCAR news 2026, The Final Lap Weekly, Kerry Murphey, Toby Christie, TobyChristie.com, Kyle Busch, Kyle Busch M&Ms car, Kyle Busch M&Ms Toyota, M&Ms NASCAR, Denny Hamlin, Denny Hamlin brakes, NASCAR brake controversy, NASCAR made up rule, NASCAR rules controversy, Tyler Reddick, Tyler Reddick points, NASCAR point standings, NASCAR Cup Series standings, NASCAR playoff standings, New Hampshire Motor Speedway, NASCAR New Hampshire, New Hampshire NASCAR preview, Magic Mile, NASCAR fantasy picks, Fantasy NASCAR, Rowdy Dragon, Rowdy Dragon Fantasy NASCAR, NASCAR predictions, NASCAR race preview, NASCAR Cup Series 2026, NASCAR playoffs, Joe Gibbs Racing, JGR NASCAR Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Times change, but somehow the job hasn’t. In this episode, Chip and Gini dig into what’s stayed constant across their combined decades in PR and marketing, and why chasing the latest platform update is a losing game if you’ve lost sight of the fundamentals underneath it. The episode was sparked by a LinkedIn series from Doug Simon, who asked longtime PR pros what has remained constant in their careers. Gini was asked the question of whether the PESO Model still holds up, and her answer is that the four media types haven’t gone anywhere, and earned media’s third-party credibility now matters more to how LLMs learn. Chip extends the logic to SEO and its successors, advising to chase the people, not the algorithm or the platform. Other changes may also have less of an impact than you might think. Influencer marketing is the latest version of celebrity TV endorsements, but with a YouTube channel. The agency-client relationship continues to run on the same dynamics it did 70 or 80 years ago. Gini brings up the story about a UK agency reportedly running AI agents to pitch journalists undetected for eight months. Chip’s take is that just like with interns and inexperienced team members, there are well-managed AI agents as well as poorly managed ones. It's the human factor that matters most. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “If you lose sight of the fundamentals, you can have all the technology in the world, and you’re still gonna have rubbish results.” Gini Dietrich: “If you create content for humans, you will win the SEO game. You will win the AEO, GEO game. You will win whatever comes next game.” Chip Griffin: “Chase the people. Don’t chase the algorithm.” Gini Dietrich: “Your job, especially as a communicator, is to protect reputation, build brand, and create thought leadership. That has not changed.” View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m gonna have to try to rack my memory from way, way back, and as I get older, that, that distance gets longer and my memory gets poorer, so we’ll see how this works. Gini Dietrich: Ok- okay. Well, I have the same afflictions, so let’s see what happens. Chip Griffin: So we thought that this was, this was spurred by something that our friend Doug Simon did recently on LinkedIn where he did a video series and talked to a bunch of people who have been in the PR industry for a long time and asked a series of questions, one of which was, what has- Remained constant over the course of your career in PR. Obviously we talk a lot these days about everything that, that has changed, is changing. There’s no shortage of those things. I’ve talked about it here on the show, you know, how we started with fax machines and mailed press releases and things like that, that just kind of blows the mind of a lot of the younger listeners that we have. But, but even with all of that change and with everything that AI is doing to our industry today, there are a lot of things that have stayed constant. And I think that as we think about how we run our agencies, it’s important to remember the fundamentals that have remained the same no matter how much technology has changed in PR and marketing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, I think you’re right that the, probably the way that we do things has changed, but not the strategic reason. Like I say to people all the time that the reason you do your job has not changed. The strategy, the strategic reason behind it has not changed. The tools have changed, for sure, but your job, especially as a communicator, is to protect reputation, build brand, and create thought leadership. That has not changed. Yeah. The way that you go about it has changed, but not, not the actual doing of the job has changed. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, the tools have changed. The landscape certainly in media has changed. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yes. Chip Griffin: The landscape in terms of the public and where they go for information and where they receive messaging and all of that, obviously that has changed substantially over the 35 plus years that I’ve been in communications. But it is still about communicating the right message at the right time to the right people. Yeah. And building relationships with the people that you are trying to influence, whether that’s a member of the media or a member of the public or potential client or whomever. And if you remember those fundamentals, it helps you to figure out how to use all of these technologies for their greatest impact. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, I had a convers- I was on Zoom with Fred Cook of former GolinHarris, now at Annenberg Center. I was on Zoom with him last week, and he’s like, “So has PESO changed?” And I was like, “No, because we still do those things, right?” Like, the way that we implement it today versus the way we implemented it in 2014 are completely different, for sure. But we still use earned media, we still use shared media, we still use owned media, we still use paid media. The way that we use it has changed, but we still use the four media types. And to your point, media has changed, so earned media has changed, like the, the recipient of our earned media has changed, but the outcome of third-party credibility is probably even more important today than it was back then because that’s how the LLMs learn too, is by citable information. So yes, the way that we go about it has changed, but the actual work itself, the outcome itself has not. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think the, the important thing to think about here is that, that ultimately all of these tools and publications and platforms are all designed to connect one human to another. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And, and so you know, when you think about public relations, for example, it’s got relations right there in the title. And so you really need to think about how you are building those relationships between whoever the person is on your end and the person that you’re trying to reach. And, if you, if you take the humans out of this entirely, then you’re missing the plot, and you really need to be thinking about how do these tools and how do these techniques allow you to do more of that, to do it better, to do it at greater scale, all of those kinds of things, but not, not just, you know, chuck everything that you knew out the window, have the machines do everything on their own, for you. Gini Dietrich: No. No. Chip Griffin: Abandon proven approaches. None of those things make any sense. Gini Dietrich: No. Please do not do that because that has not changed. Like, the way I- we talked about this last week, like, AI is making us far more productive and far more efficient, but you still have to know how to, to your point, relate to other human beings. Are you creating content and engineering your visibility to show up in AI? For sure. But that’s also because human beings are using AI to get the answer, so you still have to build those relationships with other human beings. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and if you follow the fundamentals, then it allows you to evolve with whatever tools and technology- That’s right come along. It’s similar to what I’ve always said in terms of SEO in the old days and now AEO, GEO, which is chase the people. Don’t chase the algorithm. Yep. Don’t chase the platform. Yep. Chase the, the people because ultimately all of the tools are designed to do that anyway, right? Right. I mean, Google for years has been trying to figure out what is the user actually looking for and trying to deliver that in the results. And so if you are sitting there trying to say, “Hey, I need to figure out how to reach that same person,” you’ll probably be okay no matter how they change the algorithm. If you sit there and say, “I need to figure out what was the latest Google algorithm update, and what does that mean?” “How should I move things around on my page? What should I bold?” If you start thinking in those terms, you may win the short-term battle, but you will lose the war because you do not understand what you’re actually trying to do, and that has not changed over the course of our careers. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, I’ve said for at least a decade, if not longer, that if you create content for humans, you will win the SEO game. You will win the AEO, GEO game. You will win whatever comes next game. Because human beings are still the ones that are purchasing your services. The robots are not. Chip Griffin: Right. Gini Dietrich: And so if you create content, if it’s whatever content it is, it’s earned media, it’s video, it’s audio, it’s written, whatever it happens to be, if that audience, number one audience is human beings, you will win all the other games. Chip Griffin: And look, even most of the things that we look at today as new, they aren’t really. They’re just, they- they’re packaged differently. I, you know- Right … we, we have all of this talk around influencers- Yes, yes … and the rise of influencers. Yes, yes. Which to me is one of the silliest things in the world. Not the influencers themselves, I mean, some of them can be silly. They’re certainly useful to us as communicators, marketers, et cetera. But that’s no different than three decades ago when we had celebrity endorsements. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Right? The, it is just the modern-day equivalent of it, and we just define celebrity a little bit differently than we might have back, you know- Yep in the ’80s or ’90s, but ultimately it’s the same thing. It’s just they have a YouTube channel now or an Instagram account- Right … instead of, you know, you put them in a TV commercial or a print ad or something like that. But even back in the day, you had celebrity endorsers who were not truly celebrities. They were just someone known in their local community- Right … who you could throw in a newspaper ad and say- Yeah … you know, “Hey, you know, I believe in either this cause or this product or whatever.” So that has not changed. That continues to be exactly the same, just packaged differently. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, when you think about earned media, and you know, we do a, a lot, a lot, a lot of work with universities because PESO model curriculum is in almost every university’s PR, communications, marketing, and some journalism programs. So we do a ton of work with universities, and I, one of the questions I get consistently from professors is, “How are you teaching earned media through PESO?” And we keep talking about traditional media is like, that used to be the thing, right? You would get The New York Times, you would get Oprah, you would get The Today Show. Like, those things don’t matter as much anymore because you have influencers or, local celebrities that have their Substack newsletters, they have their Medium newsletters. You can subscribe to those, you can pay for those just like you would the newspaper, and you get the information that you need. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and, so little technical glitch on my end. I think we’ll clean it up, in the edit. But if you noticed anything, it was just for some reason my home TV studio- … decided to shut itself off. The, the, the smart home devices here just decided that, nope, it was time to turn everything, everything off, so. Gini Dietrich: I was talking to a blank screen. I was like, “Should I keep going?” Chip Griffin: You know, but we just, we roll through these things … on the Agency Leadership podcast because the technology has changed- It is- … but glitches still happen. Glitches, right. I mean, you know, I, I, I remember back in the ’90s, you know, using dial-up internet to do work, and then, you know, someone actually calls your landline and knocks you offline in the middle of, you know- Yep trying to send an email or something. Yep. Yep. And you gotta figure, did it actually send? Did it not send? Yep. So, you know- Mm-hmm … technical glitches- There you go … that’s another thing that has remained constant- It’s still- … despite all the technology. Oh my gosh, it’s so funny. You know, the typewriters that I used to use at work, sometimes the ribbon would get snagged, and, you know, you’d have to unsnag the ribbon, right? So even non-electronic things still had issues. Broke your pencil, whatever. Gini Dietrich: As much as things have changed- … they still remain the same. Chip Griffin: They, they absolutely do. And, and I, so I think it’s part of our responsibility as agencies to work with our clients and help them to understand that the fundamentals have remained constant and will continue to remain constant. Because we wanna make sure that we’re taking advantage of everything that’s out there, but we also need to make sure that we are not overdoing it in one area or another because we’re losing sight of those fundamentals, nor are we either having our clients get scared or us get nervous about it and what it means for our businesses. Because if we follow those fundamentals, then we can continue to adapt, and take advantage of all of these technologies as we move forward. If you, if you focus on the technology first and just say, “Hey, I need to have an AI strategy.” No, you don’t. Gini Dietrich: No, you don’t. Chip Griffin: You absolutely do not need to have an AI strategy- Right or an influencer strategy or anything. Gini Dietrich: Totally agree. Yeah. Chip Griffin: You need to have a strategy that takes advantage of AI or influencers or whatever as appropriate. Yes. But your strategy should be rooted in those fundamentals because that’s how you get ahead. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And like I said at the start, I always say the reason that we do these things has not changed. The tools have changed, the way you go about it has changed, but the how or the why has not changed. So don’t get so wrapped up in, “Oh my gosh, now I’ve gotta figure out AI.” Yeah, you gotta figure out AI- Right … because it’s, it’s going to replace you if you don’t figure it out, and it’s actually really fun, so you should figure it out just from that perspective. But you don’t have to change your strategy. You don’t have to change, like, the things that you do to service clients- Right … because that has not changed. Chip Griffin: Right. Right. And, and I think that that’s a, that’s another thing that has remained constant is the relationship between agencies and clients. You know, we think all of this is changing in the world that we’re in, but it’s really not. The way that agencies and clients work together is the same today as it was 70 or 80 years ago, even before you and I were born, let alone started working in the industry. And so understanding how those relationships and dynamics come together and how you can partner most effectively. Sure, the actual nature of the relationships has changed because of the work that we’re doing, but those relationships still matter in the same way that they always did, and you still need to build the human component into it. We can’t allow the technology to overtake that. We need to make sure that we’re spending the time to get to know our clients. We need to make sure that we’re continuing, even in this remote world that we’re in, to find ways to have additional touchpoints, whether that’s through more frequent video calls to build the relationship or ideally in person whenever possible. Those things still matter, and we still need to try to figure out how to take advantage of them to have those strong business relationships in addition to the results-oriented relationships that we’re looking for. Gini Dietrich: So I’m gonna throw a little wrench in things- Okay … because I just read an article this morning that talked about how an agency out of the UK has created AI agents that are pitching media, and it took about eight months for a journalist to go, “Something doesn’t seem right,” and then started to investigate, and sure enough, the agency owner said, “Yeah, I mean, we’ve created these bots that are pitching the media.” He claims that there are real humans on the back end of it, um, that has not been proven yet. They, the, the investigative journalist said, “I think actually based on what I have here, that there aren’t real humans behind it.” But, you know, I think when, when we hear about AI taking our jobs, we hear these kinds of stories, and we get a little freaked out. Nobody’s happy about it. Every journalist who’s been pitched by these AI bots have come out and said, “This is not okay.” But I think that there are gonna be other experiments like this where you’re trying to use– or you’re trying to build an agency out of AI agents instead of human beings. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, I– what I would say to that is I think that there are probably countless examples that we’re not aware of where the, the AI did work on pitching the journalist and didn’t get called out, right? Because- Gini Dietrich: Right … Chip Griffin: by definition, you can only call out the ones you catch. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: So, I suspect there is a fair bit of this going on. I mean, part of the problem is that, that so much of it is done poorly. I mean- Right. Yes … my, my inbox is full of sales messaging that I’m fairly certain is, you know, whether it’s directly AI generated or AI assisted, it’s hard to tell for sure sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Because it might be entirely AI or it might just be poorly managed AI. But at the same time I’m certain I’m also being exposed to plenty of messages that are AI generated, and, I can’t tell because they are, they’re good at what they do. And I think we will absolutely see more of that. But ultimately, all of the – the AI doesn’t decide to do these things on its own, right? I mean- Fair. Yeah … at least as of now. Yeah, right. And so even in the- Yep … example that you shared, even if it’s just the owner who’s involved in having created this network, you still have the human at one end of this. Yeah. Whether they are managing every message or not, who knows? And, I’m not even sure that that’s necessary as long as they are well targeted and being actually truly genuinely helpful to the journalist on the other end by giving them something that is, you know, that fits with what they write about. I mean, part of the problem with AI is that so much of it is just poorly targeted. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. Chip Griffin: But that, that’s more on the humans who are sending them out there. Yeah, yep. It’s not on… The AI can do a great job if you give it the right context, the right direction, the right information. If you just say, “Hey, you know, go find journalists” … of course it’s gonna do poorly, right? It’s- But, but so would a human … Gini Dietrich: just like a young professional Chip Griffin: I mean, we’ve talked about this before. Gini Dietrich: Right. A young pro- Yeah … intern Chip Griffin: You bring an intern and you tell them, “Just start talking to journalists and, and get them to cover us,” and you don’t tell them what you do. You don’t tell them what the journalists cover. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, they’re gonna do awful. Yeah. You start giving context and the in- even the intern will do- Yeah … a good job with very little background, but you need to give them something, and the AI needs the same thing. But ultimately it’s still that human on one end and the human on the other end. And so I think that, that we, when we’re talking about fundamentals, that’s what I’m talking about. You need to sort of separate out all of the machinations in between. That can be done well, it can be done poorly, and that changes the outcome, but fundamentally you still have a human on both ends of that conversation. Even though we like to pretend it’s the AI doing it on its own, the AI is never- It’s not … doing it on its own. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Chip Griffin: At least, at least as of this recording. No. We, we don’t have- Gini Dietrich: Not right now, right. … Chip Griffin: AI that just wanders off and does its own thing. Gini Dietrich: This is why I always say please and thank you to my AI, just so that it remembers that I was kind to it. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Well, and, I mean, we can probably talk about this some other time, but I think the AI companies are doing themselves no service by trying to make it seem like the AI operates on its own, and when they say the, “The AI broke out of its constraints and, you know, hacked into another company,” baloney. I mean, come on. Like, just knock it off. And I don’t, from a communication standpoint, I guess, you know, they may think that that’s helping them to, No … to say, “We’re really powerful. You should use us.” That’s not really- That’s not … I don’t think what- Nope … what ultimately- Gini Dietrich: That’s not the message Chip Griffin: comes through. Gini Dietrich: Nope. That’s not the message. Chip Griffin: So, yeah. So it’s, you know, you need to focus on the fundamentals. And I think if, if you take nothing else away from this discussion it’s, is that the fundamentals don’t change, haven’t changed, remain constant, you know, going back to, I don’t know, Ben Franklin or earlier, you know? These are not things that are, you know, wild and innovative. The tools and techniques are, absolutely. And but to me, that’s the exciting bit, right? Right. You can figure out, if you know the fundamentals, then you can always take advantage of the latest tools and technology to do it better, to do it faster, to do it more effectively, whatever it may be. But if you lose sight of the fundamentals, you can have all the technology in the world, and you’re still gonna have rubbish results. Gini Dietrich: 100%, I totally agree. Yep. Strategy has not changed, tools have. Chip Griffin: So with that, I think we will stop beating this dead horse, and we can, we can move along. You can move along from listening to us today, and you’ll have to join us for the next episode where we’ll find something else to rant and rave about. Gini Dietrich: Yes, we will. Chip Griffin: ‘Cause that’s what we do. That’s what we do. At least that’s what I do. Gini Dietrich: That’s what we do. Chip Griffin: So with that, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Hosts Miko Lee & Guest Host Mia Nakano celebrate Bayanihan in Ballhalla. Bayanihan is a core Filipino cultural value of community unity, and Balhalla is the home arena of the Golden State Valkyries. Apex Express was invited to join Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries game. We speak with the community behind this cultural celebration. That includes Al Perez, artists Venazir Martinez and Kristian Kabuay, and coach Carolyn Sideco about the history of Philippines and basketball. Links for more information: More information on our guests: Golden State Valkyries Al Perez, President of the Filipino American Arts Exposition Artist Venazir Martinez DJ P-LO Cultural Practitioner Kristian Kabuay Carolyn Sideco Coaching Kapwa Raquel Redondiez SOMA Pilpinas     Show Transcript: [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express. [00:01:13] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I'm your host, Miko Lee, and tonight is Bayanihan in Ballhalla. Bayanihan is a core Filipino cultural value of community unity, and Balhalla is the home arena of the Golden State Valkyries. Apex Express was invited to join Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries game. Tonight, please join me and my guest host, Mia Nakano, as we speak with the community behind this cultural celebration. That includes Al Perez, artists Venazir Martinez and Kristian Kabuay, and coach Carolyn Sideco about the history of Philippines and basketball. Join us. Today I have the honor of having my bestie with me who's gonna co-host Welcome to Apex, Mia Nakano.  [00:01:59] Mia Nakano: Hi, Miko. Thank you for having me.  [00:02:01] Miko Lee: I was invited to a Valkyries game, and I said, “Oh, my gosh, I need somebody with me that can speak basketball.” And so I thought of you.  [00:02:10] Mia Nakano: And here we are. And the Valkyries do put on a show. That's one of the things that makes them so great.  [00:02:15] Miko Lee: Yeah, it was super fun. It was Filipino Heritage Night, and so we got a chance to talk with the different artists that are there, what is the night about, what's the cultural celebration. What were some of the things that stood out to you?  [00:02:28] Mia Nakano: I think that it really got to the roots of, one, what a great sports city San Francisco and then just the broader Bay Area is, and two, the deep connections to the Filipino community that exists within the Bay Area. When you look at how historically the Warriors really came up and the fan shots from when they were at Oracle Arena, the huge fan base that was there initially was the Filipino community. To see that translate in a very different way as the Valkyries are coming up in the WNBA as this incredible team, second year, on their way to probably making the playoffs for the second year in a row, bringing that community back, particularly with all the connections of the artists, the activations, and even the food that they have in Chase Arena brings it full circle. [00:03:26] Miko Lee: Having Natalie Nakase as the coach there is so powerful and important representation for Asian Americans as well. The other thing that stood out to me was I did not know there was this history of basketball in the Philippines, and then to talk to the different guests on our show tonight about what that history represents, where it comes from, the connection to colonization, and then also how it's really developed into its own cultural phenomena in the Philippines. [00:03:55] Mia Nakano: I played basketball- All throughout junior high and high school and was very immersed in it in Southern California, but I had no idea that basketball was the national sport of the Philippines. After we came back from the game, I did a little a bit of a deep dive, and it was really wonderful to see that it actually started in the Philippines as a women's sport? And it was making sports more accessible to folks, and also very clearly connected to,, roots of colonization and religion. But to still have that anchor and connection there, and then this interesting juxtaposition where right now there has still never been a Filipina player in the WNBA. There are folks who people really thought were almost gonna make it. So there's still that one last phase that they need to break into this sport that is their national sport, but in the United States they're not quite there yet in terms of representation.  [00:04:55] Miko Lee: And talking with Coach Caroline, which people can hear later in the episode, about that history and how it was intended to be this women's sport in the Philippines because it was easier. They thought they'd give it to the women to play. But the men were watching going like, “Oh, this looks fun. This looks more fun than baseball. So it really just took off. I love that transition for that it went and across the country. A few of our guests talked about tenement basketball courts. It's just so wildly different from this country.  [00:05:25] Mia Nakano: I think that that is contextually just how sports are played in a lot of different countries in the world where they don't have access. When you think about people playing football, right, like soccer, in different areas where they are playing barefoot. They are playing in dirt or, like, fields that are not necessarily fields. I think that in the context of playing basketball differently in the Philippines versus the United States or even in European leagues, when the United States goes to play in the Olympics, even though you have the USA women's team, USA men's teams who are supposed to be the best of the best in the world, the way that the game is played at that particular level and arena is quite different. And so they all have to adjust to the physicality, to how calls are called just slightly differently. With smaller players in the WNBA what I find really incredible, and this is what Carolyn talks about a little bit, is like the layup packages? When you get close to the rim, you don't have a Filipino who just goes up and makes a regular layup. They do it with flair, right? There's a part of that maybe is a little bit of showmanship, but also it's a part of trying to sneak your way around bigger players so that you can get the basket. And anybody that you play against, even in a league that is familiar to you, you're gonna have to change your game up, and play to your strength, and also just know what you can't do in the game, and go to another person who has more of those strengths  [00:07:03] Miko Lee: One of the other things that stood out to me in talking with one of the artists, Christian, who was there in the outside, in the cultural area, and he was doing, pre-Filipino writing with folks, and we'll interview him later in the episode. He was saying how he does this activity at a lot of different games, but it was very different. That was the first time at the Valkyries, and he said the crowd was so different, that it felt like back in the day. It felt like community. There weren't tech bros. You feel like it, The audience was way more women, As someone that goes to Warriors' and Valkyries' games, do you notice a difference in the audience?    [00:07:41] Mia Nakano: The first Valkyries game that I had the opportunity to go to last year was their Pride Night, and that is the game that my wife and I always go to for the Warriors. It's a special feeling there. I noticed there was a whole parking lot area for strollers on different levels. There was such great energy, and people just talking about the game, people cheering or rooting for players on the other team. There was not a lot of negative energy going around. When Christian mentions, the tech bro energy, the people rolling around with Patagonia shirts, and sweatshirts, that is so true. You truly feel this family environment that's also very queer friendly. There's so many folks of color, and they're not just there because the team's winning, because last year we didn't know if the team was gonna win or not. They were just showing up. The Valkyries have really created such a strong culture that is team based. That's what you see with the Valkyries, but I also think that that's a testament to the coach, to the players, who really trust in one another, and to the community that we have in the Bay Area. I think even the players did not understand when they came here what they were stepping into, and they talk about talking to other players on opposing teams who are like, “Is it always like this? Is it every night?” They're like, “Every single night, this is how our fans are, and we love it.”  [00:09:14] Miko Lee: So it's in different WNBA hometowns it's not like that? [00:09:18] Mia Nakano: Absolutely not. The Valkyries have sold out every single game from day one. They are the first WNBA team, and I think the first women's professional sports team, to reach $100 billion in valuation. then you see other teams, like the Atlantic Dream, who are playing in arenas of 3,500, or the Dallas Wings, who are playing in much smaller arenas, even though they have all these franchise players like Angel Reese and Paige Bueckers and AZ Fudd. The Dallas Wings are actually moving to the same arena that the Mavericks are gonna play in next year. It's an interesting juxtaposition given where the context of our world is at, who's in office right now, the battles that we're having to fight to keep women's rights, queer rights, trans rights in the forefront and not have them stripped away. Yet on the other side of this, we have this huge, meteoric rise of women's sports, and it's not just basketball. It's baseball. It's hockey. It's all these different leagues that are starting to emerge and have huge fan bases where you can watch women's professional sports all year round. They're nationally televised games. [00:10:31] Miko Lee: Thank you for the history lesson and current events of women's sports. I love it. One of the other things that was really special for this Filipino heritage night was the halftime show where they had DJ P-Lo playing. And then they brought onto the court, the director of SOMA Pilipinas, Raquel Redondiez, and she runs San Francisco's Filipino Cultural Heritage District. She got her name on a Valkyries jersey, and was announced in the halftime moment as a big show. [00:11:05] Mia Nakano: I had a conversation with her said, ” the work that you are doing, particularly in this moment, bringing together the artists, the culture of Filipinos and Filipino history is so critical right now because so many of our communities, cultures, and stories are getting erased, that we are the culture bearers and culture keepers, and so thank you for doing that work.” [00:11:31] Miko Lee: SOMA Pilipinas, for those that don't know, was established as a Filipino cultural heritage district in 2016 and was one of the first in the state designated as an arts district by California Arts Council in 2017. So they do so much great work, they host great things from the, United States of Asian America Festival every year. Self-defense workshops for women. I've taken those in Kapwa Gardens that were amazing. They do mental health services for Filipino folks and provided groceries and COVID education and, Filipino language training, and then artists, as you were saying. They pulled together all these different folks, for this wonderful night to introduce a sense of heritage and a sense of pride that was really powerful. [00:12:19] Mia Nakano: , It's a really lovely connection back to the Filipinos banding together with Chinese American folks in Chinatown that really helped create the broader Asian American movement and what that word and power even means. [00:12:38] Miko Lee: From the I-Hotel to today [00:12:40] Mia Nakano: exactly, and all of that being really anchored and rooted in San Francisco, as well as everything that Larry Itliong did with union organizing that I think has just recently started to get recognized in the broader social justice movement.  [00:12:58] Miko Lee: I'll put links to past shows that we've done on the I-Hotel, on Larry Itliong, because folks, if they don't know about either of those movement le- leaders and huge moments in our Asian American history, they should. It's powerful part of our labor and housing rights history. Were there other things that stood out to you at this Valkyries game? [00:13:20] Mia Nakano: I know that this is probably not gonna be a surprise to you, but the fact that we honestly just got to go behind the scenes and see the inner workings of what the Valkyries, the tunnels and getting lost and trying to figure out where we're going. [00:13:34] Miko Lee: It was a maze down there, by the way. It was like, which direction? Go to this press room. No, this press room. This place. It was very much kind of, in theater-wise, it's like going backstage and seeing how the tech is done.  [00:13:46] Mia Nakano: The thing that was the most exciting about this unique experience was being able to see Natalie Nakase talk after the game, and the snippet in here is really incredible because it shed light into not just who she is as a coach and how she approached the game, but her investment in people, and the importance of seeing people for their full selves, and the importance of the whole WNBA as a league, as a business. They have a lot of money and power, so who are we gonna lift up? It's a always a very intentional choice of what is happening at Chase Arena, at the Valkyries nights, these heritage nights that really uplift so many wonderful communities that are doing incredible work.  [00:14:36] Miko Lee: We're gonna get a chance to do an interview with Coach Natalie in a different episode, so stay tuned for that. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience?  [00:14:45] Mia Nakano: Go see a Valkyries game. Go to Balhalla. It will change your life.  [00:14:50] Miko Lee: Experience Balhalla. Okay. Thank you for joining me, and hopefully you'll join me back when we do an interview with Coach Natalie too.  [00:14:59] Mia Nakano: Oh, absolutely.  [00:15:00] Miko Lee: To frame the conversation, we start with Valkyries coach Natalie Nakase, the first Asian American woman to coach a WNBA team. Last year, she was named WNBA Coach of the Year, and at the post-game presser, a reporter asked her, “Tonight is Filipino National Heritage Night, so can you talk a little bit about what it means for fans to be seen around the league?” This is her response. [00:15:25] Natalie Nakase: Yeah. It's huge. I love the fact that we can celebrate and acknowledge different cultures. I'm really big on that. I think it gives people almost like a superpower or a confidence for, you know, the day to be recognized like that and to be celebrated for everything that their, their culture brings. it also, I think, educates people about different cultures. And so I love the fact that we're super intentional about that because I think we have to do that more than not. And, it's exciting. I think this world needs more celebration. I think this world needs more love, more care, especially when some people are not seen as much. [00:16:01] Miko Lee: In the very loud outdoor Chase Arena area, we spoke with several of the folks involved in Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries. Please note that the sound quality is due to the nature of being outside a really excited fan base at the game. First off, listen in as we hear from Al Perez, who helped to curate this community celebration. [00:16:23] Al Perez: Hello, my name is Al Perez. I am a community organizer. I'm serving as president of a nonprofit called the Filipino American Arts Exposition, and we partnered with the Valkyries to help curate their cultural activation for Filipino Heritage Night tonight. [00:16:41] Miko Lee: Since the Valkyries are named after women warriors, is there a Filipina version of a woman warrior? [00:16:48] Al Perez: Absolutely. We have one that's local. Her name is Victoria Manalo Draves. She was the first American woman to win two Olympic golds in the Olympics in nine- 1928. She happens to be Filipina-American. So yeah, she was born and raised here in, in San Francisco Bay Area, so we're very proud of her to be, to represent us and be the warrior and an inspiration for all of us.  [00:17:11] Miko Lee: Excellent. And since Valhalla or Valhalla is the space that we want to get to, what is the Filipino version of that place you want to see? [00:17:19] Al Perez: Wow. [00:17:20] Miko Lee: That perfect world you wanna get to. [00:17:21] Al Perez: I think for us, we have this tradition called bayanihan. That's when we help each other towards a common goal. Yes. No matter how Herculean that task is, it's just coming together to help each other. So it's not necessarily a destination. It's more like an attitude of, coming together as a community towards a common goal, towards a cultural pride and community empowerment. [00:17:46] Miko Lee: Great. And tell us what you're doing here today with all these groups. [00:17:47] Al Perez: So we have an outreach table here because we're part of the organizing committee to curate tonight's event. So we actually have an event next weekend called the Pistahan Parade and Festival. It's the largest Filipino cultural celebration in the country, happening August 8th and 9th at the Yerba Buena Gardens, so please come check us out. There's a big parade down Market Street on Saturday to kick off the festival weekend, and then the festival's at the Yerba Buena Gardens, 11 to 5. We're here to promote that event as well as all our other upcoming events in the fall. We're also curating the Filipino Heritage Night with the Golden State Warriors, with the Giants, San Jose Sharks, and San Jose Earthquakes. And then one more. October is Filipino American History Month in the country. So we also produce official celebration proclamation by the mayor at City Hall. So we have a reception, we have entertainment, and we light the City Hall building with Philippine flag colors.  [00:18:42] Miko Lee: And when folks are coming out to these Filipino nights, what should they expect? What's happening?  [00:18:47] Al Perez: Our goal is to be here to be in community, to help showcase our beautiful culture, our traditions. So when these events happen, we usually have, cultural performances, either a pre-game or a halftime. Tonight you're gonna see, P-Lo, a Filipino rapper and a hip hop singer. Here in the plaza we have some basketball hoops, because basketball is a big thing in the Philippines, our national sport. There's also, Sarap Shop is a concession inside. They have Filipino food there. Our goal is to get people a little taste of our Filipino culture, so hopefully they'll be inspired to, to learn more about our community and our culture. [00:19:29] Miko Lee: And what's your dream for the game tonight?  [00:19:31] Al Perez: Of course, to win, right? Number, yeah, number one, Valkyries to win. And also, I hope that people will come and learn about our culture, and to appreciate it more. Maybe it will inspire them to try some Filipino food, or even come to our Pistahan Festival next weekend. Also Señor Sisig is right here in the plaza. They also do fusion Filipino food. I'm hoping that, by being here, people can get to be a little bit more familiar and curious about Filipino culture and community. We have such a, vibrant and diverse culture, we love to be in community. Our food's delicious, and entertainment's fantastic. So come check us out wherever and whenever you can.  [00:20:14] Mia Nakano: I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the artists who are here and the community organizations that are here tonight.  [00:20:19] Al Perez: So there's several of us nonprofit organizations here. Our group's the Filipino American Arts Exposition, our mission is more about broadening awareness and deepening understanding of Filipino culture and traditions by doing these cultural events. There's another group here called Young Filipino Professionals Association, or YFPA. They're more about, , uplifting young entrepreneurs, young career-minded, individuals to help them on their path to being more successful. There's also SoMa Pilipinas Cultural District is here. That's a new, relatively new, neighborhood in San Francisco. You know, there's Chinatown, there's Japantown, there's North Beach, so now we also have a Filipino community. It's called SoMa Pilipinas, they're also celebrating their 10th anniversary this year as being, designated as a cultural district. There's also Venazir is a visual artist. She's doing live art mural here inspired by Filipino culture and the intersection of culture and basketball. So it's a great way for people to kind of learn about our fine arts, our visual arts, and our he- heritage. Kristian Cabuay is doing script writing of traditional pre-colonial Philippine script. You know, Chinese and Japanese have their own script writing. The Phi- Filipino community also did before we were colonized by Spain. It's kind of almost forgotten and almost wiped out, so there's a few people now that's trying to revive that, that old tradition of writing .. It's called Baybayin.    [00:21:42] Mia Nakano: Can you talk a little bit about the history or why basketball is the national sport of the Philippines?   [00:21:48] Al Perez: Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah, why is basketball the national sport? I'm not sure exactly, but I think it has to do when after the Philippines was colonized by Spain, and then it, the country became, a commonwealth of the United States, right? And during that time, a lot of Americans came to the Philippines, to establish educational institutions, and one of them is sports. It just got introduced to us, and somehow it clicked. Everybody loves basketball. No matter where you are in the Philippines, in every little barrio, every little town, there's always a game happening [00:22:21] Miko Lee: So are people playing in school, like they start in elementary school, or is it more community based?  [00:22:26] Al Perez: I think it's both. It's just kinda grow, ingrown when you're just a kid growing up in your community. There's always basketball around you, surrounded by basketball. And then of course in more, elementary, high school, it became more teams dynamic, and you got competitions , intramural games. Even between little neighborhoods and little towns, they also have competitions. It's really a big deal. In fact, they love NBA. All the American basketball players are so popular. Everybody knows who they are. [00:22:54] Miko Lee: Al mentioned artist Venazir Martinez, and we pulled her away from the beautiful mural she was creating to talk with us. Again, this is outside, so the sound is quite loud. Venazir is a muralist and a visual anthropreneur. She weaves a tapestry of narratives that explore the connections between human traditions and the ever-changing landscapes that shape them. Listen as she tells us about her work and how she utilizes a symbolic red thread [00:23:25] Venazir Martinez: I'm Venazir Martinez. I am a muralist and a visual entrepreneur, and I am invited to create a live painting for the Golden State Valkyries. [00:23:36] Miko Lee: What has inspired you to create this work of art? [00:23:39] Venazir Martinez: So first and foremost, of course, women empowerment, and we have a lot of very talented Filipino Americans who play basketball. In the Philippines, because I grew up in the Philippines, basketball is such a huge deal. Everywhere in the most promote areas in the Philippines, basketball is their way of enjoying themselves and just pretty much having a time of their life. Basketball tenements are everywhere in the most remote areas in the Philippines. There's this concept of Filipino resiliency that I wanted to incorporate in my work, there are basketball hoops that is made out of wood scraps and like discarded metals. I wanted to highlight that part of Philippine ingenuity. That's why I'm here is to just shed light on that beautiful concept of Filipino ingenuity that we have.  [00:24:40] Miko Lee: I love that. Thank you for sharing. Can you break down what a basketball tenement is?  [00:24:44] Venazir Martinez: Oh, basketball tenement. So tenement courts, these are,.. How do I say this? In America, there's basketball courts that is, like, roofed. Okay. With a roof, and-  [00:24:54] Miko Lee: Like in a gymnasium.  [00:24:56] Venazir Martinez: In a gymnasium, yes. But in the Philippines, anywhere can be a basketball tenement court. They'll just put up a basketball hoop in a pole, like an electricity pole, and they can already play basketball in that area. [00:25:12] Miko Lee: So their court's just made up anywhere. Yeah. Anywhere in the community.  [00:25:14] Venazir Martinez: Anywhere in the community, in the most remote areas in the Philippines, they do that all the time. I grew up in the Philippines, so, it's that really is an immersive experience of having to see basketball really change lives for young people in our community. [00:25:32] Miko Lee: So we're at a WNBA game, and I'm wondering if there was a woman basketball player that you looked up to when you were growing up.  [00:25:39] Venazir Martinez: Growing up, my dad plays basketball. That's the only experience I know that, remembering what basketball is like. ‘Cause I'm mostly in martial arts. But here I am trying to experience a different, like, more empowering way of sports. And it's when I came to America that I experienced this kind of really, it's kind of empowering.  [00:26:01] Miko Lee: And since the Valkyries are women warriors, is there a Filipina equivalent of the woman warrior? Is there a Filipina equivalent of a woman warrior? [00:26:01] Venazir Martinez: There's a lot. There's a lot of very empowering Filipina. First and foremost, it's the Filipina community leaders that I know of in the Bay Area. They are my women warriors. They helped me from the ground up. They created a home for me. They, you know, so they welcomed me. The filipina community in the Bay Area welcomed me. They're all women.  [00:26:31] Miko Lee: Who would you say are some of those folks, some of those women?  [00:26:34] Venazir Martinez: Sonia Villarin, she wears so many hats. She's president of Filipina Food Movement, founder of summer camp in the University of the Philippines Alumni Association in San Francisco. She was the, senior vice president for Bank of America Global Leasing, and she welcomed her home to me and, pretty much, helped me establish my life here as an artist. So those are my women warriors. [00:27:00] Miko Lee: And when people see your beautiful work, what do you want them to walk away with feeling? [00:27:05] Venazir Martinez: I want them to take a second look again in my work, because these, my work pretty much talks about Filipino immigrants, and immigration at large, and pretty much our contributions and the harvested hopes that we have contributed in this cultural landscape,  [00:27:28] Miko Lee: this show is a pop-up tonight, so where can folks find out more about your work or see your work in the community? [00:27:34] Venazir Martinez: I have a huge, huge mural, 2,500 square feet mural in 5th and Folsom in San Francisco, downtown San Francisco in SoMa. It's called Ani, meaning to harvest. There's one in downtown Santa Cruz. There is one in Yuba City. There are multiple murals in Michigan, in New York, mostly in Queens. It's pretty much everywhere, but if you follow the red thread, which is my signature, my artist signature, you'll know that it's my work.  [00:28:08] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. Thank you so very much. Appreciate you taking the time. Another artist presenting their work was Kristian Kabuay working on pre-Philippines calligraphy. His line was so long that we ended up interviewing him separately. Christian is an artist, entrepreneur, futurist who specializes in endangered writing systems and tattoos from the Philippines. Hello, and welcome to Apex Express. Can you tell me your name, your background and what you were doing at the Valkyries Filipino Heritage Night? [00:28:40] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. My name is Kristian Kabuay. I'm a cultural practitioner specializing in our old, uh, pre-colonial, I say pre-Philippine, writing system and tattooing traditions. I was at the Valkyries, Filipino Heritage Night to interact with the community. I've done a lot of work with the Warriors, you know, going back to Oracle for these cultural nights, the Giants, as well. So most of the teams in the Bay Area, but it was my first time with the Valkyries, and it was quite different. [00:29:16] Miko Lee: How was it different?  [00:29:17] Kristian Kabuay: The vibe was, um… I'm telling everybody that it was my first Valkyries game, too. So the vibe was different. It reminds me of the old Oracle, it wasn't full of, like, tech money that are, you know, Patagonia vests watching the game. It felt very homegrown and it just brought me back to those days in old Oakland A's and when the Warriors were in Oracle. [00:29:42] Miko Lee: What does that evoke for you? What is that feeling like?  [00:29:46] Kristian Kabuay: It gives me a stronger sense of community and the audience is different. The demographics is different. There isn't that toxic male energy. I don't have to worry about someone being drunk and going off and, it was very homey and welcoming. It brings back, as a kid, when I used to watch A's games in the bleachers, watching at Oracle, the community, and not everyone was there to be seen. They were really there for the team.  [00:30:15] Miko Lee: Oh, I love that. I actually do feel like it is, it's such a we're together community vibe. [00:30:20] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. They even had the wave. I know some snooty teams, they don't have the wave, so-  [00:30:26] Miko Lee: That wave went on for a long time, too.  [00:30:29] Kristian Kabuay: Exactly. I've been to a lot of games. They're, “Oh, I don't wanna look stupid,” or whatever? So that's a big part of my childhood.  [00:30:36] Miko Lee: So I was gonna try and talk with you at the game like I did the other artists, but you had a huge line waiting to see you and talk to you. Talk with me a little bit more about your art form and this pre-clo colonization form of writing.  [00:30:52] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. Most civilizations had a writing system. It was prior to the land alphabet when the Spanish came and colonized the Philippines in the 1500s. We have this writing. There's only one ethnolinguistic group left in the Philippines that writes it. I come from a background of calligraphy, graffiti and abstract art. When I started to practice it, I incorporated those things. Later I found that I had to become an educator. Then starting to do the cultural festivals. Then you make your parents proud. It wasn't until I started to interact with the community that, there was this responsibility. I didn't come from a highly academic background, but I was being invited to Stanford and Berkeley to give talks about this. So, you know, that imposter syndrome kicked in. Because of the efforts that I've started in, 2010s, the idea of education around this specific writing system, my service isn't really needed. It's out there. Wikipedia, even AI can do it now, and there's a lot of influencers on TikTok that are, building on the stuff that I did 10 years ago. It goes in line with my idea of putting myself out of business. ‘Cause if it's a cultural practice, then you shouldn't be this gatekeeper, this apex of this this knowledge or this practice. It needs to be spread  [00:32:15] Miko Lee: What is the writing system called?  [00:32:17] Kristian Kabuay: A couple names. One of the popular names is Baybayin, and that literally means to spell. It's an adverb, but then it became a noun. So there's many different names depending on the languages in the Philippines.  [00:32:30] Miko Lee: And you said that there's a village of folks that still utilize it. Have you been there?  [00:32:34] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, I was there in 2016 with a research trip. I stayed with them for a few days to learn, a bit about more about the culture and to donate some time and volunteer, 'cause there's the Mangyan Heritage Foundation. I did some technology work with them. But then also meet with the elders that were there. The village elder did an interview for a film project that I'm doing, but also met the heirs, the daughters in the family that ultimately inherited this practice. [00:33:02] Miko Lee: And so they know that you're teaching this cultural practice around the world, and what is their opinion of that? What do they think?  [00:33:09] Kristian Kabuay: They like it, because it's a different perspective, and a lot of questions. When I go home they go, “Oh, why are you interested in this?” It's a totally different perspective. ‘Cause out here, we have our identity, and the diaspora issues. But back home, because of circumstances, colonization, et cetera, then, the priority is to eat, to live, not to preserve these cultural practices. I've had some indigenous elders tell me that when People come over there, to do their dissertation and they need to figure out their paper to get their PhD. They ask them, “What are you doing to preserve this?” It's kind of extractive or, like, information gathering. Honestly, it really is you strip it down, it is, survival: food, clothing, and shelter.  [00:33:52] Miko Lee: When people were standing in line for you at the actual Valkyrie's game, what were they asking you to write? Were they asking you to write notes or their name, or what was the request?  [00:34:03] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. Yeah, the line… I was telling people I've never had a line that long when I've done the Warriors. So- … you know, it's kind of different.  [00:34:10] Miko Lee: That's interesting. Just saying [00:34:11] Kristian Kabuay: Yes. I was writing mainly people's names- Mm um, and some words. Maybe a, a good third were non-Filipino, some were there just curious and asking and cultural sharing. Someone knows a Filipino and they go, “Oh, can you write mahal kita?” Like, I love you. And so, we pick up things, just here in the Bay Area. I have conversations with people wanna hear a family name that I never heard about. I say, “Whoa, where's your family from?” Kids learn the stories on how they combine names and some of the origins. It's always interesting when I do this with folks. [00:34:44] Miko Lee: I love that. And you're also a tattoo artist. Do you use some of this writing in your tattoo artistry?  [00:34:51] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, I do. And that's where the separation between the art and the cultural practice is. Where the writing wasn't tattooed traditionally, but that's where I kind of balance the art. And I separate those two where art is my expression, my personal expression on paper or maybe even on a body, but a cultural practice is more about them and their lineage. So I have to be clear to make those two distinctions.  [00:35:20] Miko Lee: So a question I've asked all the different people that have been involved in this night is that the Valkyries are based on women warriors, and I wonder if there's a Filipina woman warrior that comes to mind to you? [00:35:32] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, there is. There's one that, part of the lore. Where my dad's from, in his area called Pangasinan, the land of the salt. There's a princess warrior named Princess Urduja that was thought of as a great warrior. This specific Princess Urduja has that Valkyrie's spirit. All the artwork that you see and Academics will say, “Oh, it's you're romanticizing,” and things like that. But you know what? We need a little romance in our lives, right? And romance leads to action.  [00:36:03] Miko Lee: Ah, we certainly do. I'm wondering, with all those people, the long line that stood waiting for you, and you're having these conversations, what would you like them to walk away with after interacting with you?  [00:36:14] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. That's why there was a sign, and I took a picture of it. It doesn't say, Philippine writing. So it says pre-Philippine calligraphy. I made that term up in 2007 as a way to jolt someone's idea of what pre-Hispanic, pre-colonial is. ‘Cause those things kinda just fly overhead. But if I said pre-Philippines, people, they take a step back and they, “What's that mean?” Or they try to have a smart comeback, “Well, what were we before then?” And my question's always then, “Well, I don't know. Let's talk about it.” That gray area, that being uncomfortable, leads to more curiosity, and ultimately, that's what I want folks to go ahead and, you know… oh, I have this banana leaf. I ran out of index cards. I brought 100 of them. I had these banana leaves that I just meant to decorate the table. I said, “You know what? Let me write on these banana leaves like how our ancestors did.” People are asking, “Oh, what, we wrote on banana leaves?” I'm all, “Yeah, we wrote on, organic materials.” So this thing is probably gonna wilt away in a few weeks or a month or so, but that's how it is. So it's a metaphor for our physical selves, but then also, the message. Maybe they can go ahead and learn how to write it themselves or until we reconnect again. [00:37:31] Miko Lee: Hmm. That's beautiful. And how can our audience find out more about you and your work?  [00:37:36] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, you can just search for me online. My last name's K-A-B-U-A-Y. First name's Kristian, both with a K. All over the internets and the socials, pretty easy to find.  [00:37:46] Miko Lee: Thank you. And we'll put links to your website in our show notes, so thank you so much for chatting with me today. [00:37:52] Kristian Kabuay: Thanks, Miko [00:37:54] Miko Lee: I honestly didn't know that basketball was such a revered sport in the Philippines. So wanting to find out more, I reached out to a bunch of community folks, and multiple people said, “Reach out to Coach Carolyn Sudeco. She's the one. She's in the know.” So talking to me from her vacation spot halfway around the world is Coaching Kapwa's Carolyn Sudeco. Welcome, Carolyn Sideco, to Apex Express. I'm so happy to have you here.  [00:38:19] Carolyn Sideco: Thank you for having me.  [00:38:21] Miko Lee: Can you first start by telling me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? [00:38:27] Carolyn Sideco: Oh my gosh, my people are, collectively, folks who identify as, Philippinics, Filipina, Filipino, and American, and, migratory, and those who claim blood relation and those who I'm still looking for. I live in San Francisco, California, Ohlone land, and also in the land of Choctaw Bulbancha, which is New Orleans, Louisiana. Those are the two places I reside.  [00:39:04] Miko Lee: Can you share about your work with Coaching Kapwa?  [00:39:08] Carolyn Sideco: Coaching Kapwa is what I love to do, and my background professionally is as a certified athletic administrator. I'm a physical educator at the high school level by profession, by certification, by training. But really what I love to do, and so what I do in my consultancy, is I explore and I examine and I think about and learn about everything related to sports cultures and how the culture of sports in all its various ways affect our societies. Specifically, I geek out over learning about my own Filipino American histories and other peoples. Learning that through the concept or the constructs of culture and how sports really is, for me, the funnest way to investigate who I am and who we are to each other. I call myself a sports relationship coach. I am a sports cultures consultant. I also like to identify as a sports liberator. [00:40:16] Miko Lee: Ooh, can you break down what a sports liberator is? [00:40:20] Carolyn Sideco: Miko, I took that from a friend of mine, Danya Cabello, also from the East Bay. Played at Cal, played professionally, and when I first met her years ago, she identified as such, and I said, “That is exactly the kind of person that I wanna be, like, in sports.” I wanted sports to be a way that I could share with people who we are to one another. I wanted to teach young people that they can express themselves in a way that helps make them feel free. With my background in sports administration, I was feeling like the sports industrial complex was really the antithesis of that. And what a lot of people in my profession were striving for was this success that was not defined in the same way that I was defining what my liberation was, and what I felt through sports. So I adopted that. I asked Dania, “Can I call myself a sports liberator too?” And she said, “Girl, you call yourself whatever you want.” So that's what I go by.  [00:41:37] Miko Lee: Ooh, thank you for sharing. That's so interesting in the midst of our kind of capitalization of sports, how corporate it has become. Interesting. Thanks. I also wanted to thank you for sharing with me, Rafe Bartholomew's Hoop Nation and Cassidy Hubbard's, Hoop's Paradise. So those, along with your YouTubes, really gave me a grounding in the connection to between basketball and the Philippines. I'll put a link to those in the show notes for other people that like to do deep dives like me. But can you just give our audience a sense of why basketball is so popular in the Philippines?  [00:42:10] Carolyn Sideco: I learned about the history of basketball and Filipino culture in the Philippines through various people, Rafe Bartholomew one of them, and his book Pacific Rims. A friend of mine here in the San Francisco Bay Area, Kevin Santos, was doing his master's thesis on the history of basketball in the Philippines, and putting an ethnic studies frame on it, so he was the one who actually, practiced his thesis and presentation with me, and I learned a lot through him, and through other people as I was learning about this myself, and how basketball when it was initially, or as we, the modern game of basketball was invented, by Dr. Naismith in Massachusetts with the peach tree basket. Most of us are familiar with that history, but also that was around the time of the Philippine-American War, and US colonization was at its beginning. And so what did the United States export, was its culture, and a lot of that was through sports, mainly baseball, 'cause baseball was already the national pastime. Basketball was relatively new, and basketball was taught in the Philippines also, like in conjunction with the American education system by teachers, by the Thomasites, and by others who were using that form of colonization. They gave basketball to the women and the girls, because it was the lesser sport. It was the newer sport, so it was the lesser sport. They gave it to the women. The men were supposed to play baseball. The Philippines is a collective society- Baseball is a spread out sport, and people aren't close to one another. You're out on a field, it's hella hot, and it's boring. [00:44:17] Miko Lee: Agree. Totally agree …  [00:44:19] Carolyn Sideco: it's easy, to make this assumption that these people playing baseball were watching the girls and women play basketball, and it's faster. Close to one another. It's easy to make a space. So they started playing basketball.  [00:44:39] Miko Lee: Also, you don't need all the things. You need a ball. [00:44:41] Carolyn Sideco: Exactly. In the early days, you didn't even need shoes. Yeah. So it took off in that way because basketball already itself was an activity that Filipino people, kinda took hold of already, and they made it their own. Trained teams started forming and the Philippines had national teams that were already very successful in Asian context, so Asian tournaments they were dominating. In 1975, the Philippine Basketball Association became the first men's, basketball league in Asia, and the first after the NBA in America. So the Philippines has had a long history of relationship with the sport of basketball, but because it's been so long, the sport itself was formed in response to all the cultural aspects that were already existing, right? a lot of town squares had basketball courts 'cause it was so easy to put there. So the same plazas, meeting spaces where people would have their town gatherings, social places, were also courts  [00:45:56] Miko Lee: And why do you think or just surmise that basketball has taken off more than, football or American term soccer, which is developed so much in other countries, which is also a little bit more communal? [00:46:08] Carolyn Sideco: My opinion is that American colonization, in the United States dictated, much more the United States cannot dictate because football or soccer is a more global sport, and the US didn't have as much stake in guiding that as a colonization tool as they did basketball. [00:46:29] Miko Lee: Hmm. Interesting. Speaking of the colonization and politics, I'm wondering about the connection between basketball and politics. In, Cassidy's podcast, they were talking about a politician who released their own basketball shoe, which is wild to me. Yes. So I wonder if there's other connections between basketball or politics, and if that's generally somebody who's more on the colonizer's viewpoint or more conservative viewpoint. Hmm.  [00:46:58] Carolyn Sideco: Hmm. Interesting. I, hmm, I go back and forth with this a lot, Miko, the colonizing tool that is sports, especially the capitalistic sort of, extraction, of sports, right? Of its players, who I like to think of as workers. They're also workers, right? The professional, Philippine Basketball Association is not much different than even professional sports in America with the way they're set up, right? You have owning groups or companies, and so you have these ways that exploitation and that workers' rights are… how do I say it? Because it's at the professional level, these concepts are very much at play, excuse the pun. The Philippines also has a governmental arm related to sports. So sports in and of itself is recognized, right? It doesn't have as much of this sort of altruistic thing as, as we say in the United States, like the sports is like the good of mankind, like that sort of thing. Like, I think, you know-  [00:48:08] Miko Lee: The kind of Olympic idea of unity, it brings us all together. [00:48:11] Carolyn Sideco: Right, like that, those conceptual sorts of virtues.  [00:48:15] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.  [00:48:15] Carolyn Sideco: Yeah. So in the Philippines, I think it's so much more practical because it's fun, and you could get in a game anywhere, and it's accessible. Mm-hmm. It's accessible to all strata, economic strata, right? You see basketball courts everywhere, in rural areas in cities. Everywhere you'll see basketball courts. The Philippines itself as a country- I think that relationship to sports is something different than the American relationship to professional sports, where dominance and, winning and, beating others and making as much money as possible in that is at the forefront. In the United States even with youth sports now. I do some consulting work, especially in youth sports spaces, and the privatization and the extraction of the youth sports space is, is… We could go on all day about that. I think, this is obviously from a Filipino American perspective. For sure. I've never lived in the Philippines. I was born in the Philippines, but my relationship to the Philippines is also, being mitigated by how I experience American sports, right? So when I think about how I've experienced basketball when I've gone to the Philippines, , and it's the same as any aspect of that culture, right? It's warm, it's welcoming, it's friendly, and those are the cultural aspects that kind of, , supersede the fact that basketball… Basketball has its place, but it's in service to the cultural needs, right? To the need to be social, to participate in a town gathering. It's so sociopolitical.- And because it is, it's still a colonizing tool, right? But it's still mitigated in a way that I think just like Filipino basketball players are so, like, quick. They're known for quickness, agility, and finesse, and, like, drama, right? I used to joke around, like, you can always tell where a Filipino basketball player is in the United States 'cause no Filipino who has Filipino blood in them can do a regular layup. Like they have to make it all fancy. I think that, those sorts of aspects that are not tangible, that bring to light, the way a culture of people affect the sport. it enables a culture to push out through the boundaries of that sport what was given to them. What was given to them is, “This is how you play. These are the rules,” and all that kinda stuff, and that's great, but Filipino history of basketball is always, like, how do you integrate all the really cool things about your culture? It's something that's very different, and it emerges as something that's not quite American. [00:51:36] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I'm wondering how our audience can find out more about you and your work.  [00:51:43] Carolyn Sideco: They can, follow me on Instagram at coachingkapwa, K-A-P-W-A. Kapwa is the Filipino word for the concept of interrelationship, interconnectedness. And so everything I learned about being, being a person really is through being a good teammate, and sports is the funnest way, like I've said before to practice being a good teammate  [00:52:12] Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Coach, for sharing with me about Sports Liberation and your work, and I'll put links to all that in our show notes. And I thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express.  [00:52:23] Carolyn Sideco: Thank you, Miko [00:52:25] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight's show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.    The post APEX Express – 8.13.26 – Bayanihan in Ballhalla appeared first on KPFA.

Welcome back to the 297th episode of The Cup which is our a weekly (give or take, TBD, these are unprecedented times) performing arts talk show presented by Cup of Hemlock Theatre. With the theatres on a come back we offer a mix of both reviews of live shows we've seen and continued reviews of prophet productions! For our 297th episode we have an episode of “The Cup: Editorial” in which Co-Artistic Producers Ryan Borochovitz and Mackenzie Horner pull together various threads that have been on our minds about the abundance of stage musicals being adapted from popular films – and particularly the tendency of certain theatre-lovers to panic in response to that trend. Is this really something to be concerned about, or are we only making molehills out of anthills? They discuss palimpsestuous pleasure, intellectual property, and seductive nostalgia. Follow our panelists: Mackenzie Horner (Before the Downbeat: A Musical Podcast) – Instagram/Facebook: BeforetheDownbeatApple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3aYbBeNSpotify: https://spoti.fi/3sAbjAu Ryan Borochovitz – Instagram: @ryanborochovitz [don't expect anything interesting over there] // NEXT Mag: https://nextmag.ca/search/borochovitzFollow us on Instagram/Facebook/Twitter: @cohtheatreIf you'd like us to review your upcoming show in Toronto, please send press invites/inquiries to coh.theatre.MM@gmail.com

https://agxplore.com/assessment/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=us_branding_search&utm_content=us_branding_search&utm_creative=&utm_term=nitrogen%20fertilizer%E2%80%A8&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19647814938&gbraid=0AAAAABcjE32bUOUfaJpssNXD_ZsSRg9jE Gunther Kreps and Dr. John Murphy teach with Walmart parking lots, old pickup trucks, M&M's, jawbreakers, extending radio antennas, Legos, and ibuprofen. In this entertaining What's Working in Ag episode, the AgXplore team shares some of their favorite analogies that have helped thousands of growers better understand soil fertility, nutrient availability, plant physiology, and crop nutrition. Instead of memorizing technical terms, listeners will finally understand: Why cation exchange capacity (CEC) is like the size of a parking lot. How base saturation determines whether nutrients have a place to "park." Why chelated nutrients behave like M&M's instead of jawbreakers. How boron functions like an old vehicle's power antenna. Why every nutrient matters when building a crop—just like every brick matters when building a wall. How tiny amounts of plant growth regulators can have massive biological impacts. The conversation also explores why storytelling is one of the most effective teaching tools in agriculture and how simplifying complex science leads to better agronomic decisions on the farm. Whether you're new to crop nutrition or have been farming for decades, this episode will leave you looking at your soil tests—and your crop—completely differently. Want Farm4Profit Merch? Custom order your favorite items today!https://farmfocused.com/farm-4profit/ Don't forget to like the podcast on all platforms and leave a review where ever you listen! Website: www.Farm4Profit.comShareable episode link: https://intro-to-farm4profit.simplecast.comEmail address: Farm4profitllc@gmail.comCall/Text: 515.207.9640Subscribe to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSR8c1BrCjNDDI_Acku5XqwFollow us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@farm4profitllc Connect with us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Farm4ProfitLLC/Farm4Profit Media is not a financial, legal, or tax advisor. Content is provided for informational purposes only, and we serve solely as a platform for third-party opinions. Any actions taken based on this content are at your own risk. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How do you remain composed and focused in the middle of the storms? This episode I give some advice on how you can do that. Click here for the MM donation link: https://checkout.square.site/merchant/D135FAXVEN2D7/checkout/Y67QJUO2WKX5JDCDGENK7UPU?src=sheet

In this podcast episode, James A. Davis, PharmD, BCOP, and Kelley L. Julian, PharmD, BCOP, discuss evidence-based strategies for managing smoldering and newly diagnosed multiple myeloma, including: Risk stratification and treatment selection for smoldering multiple myeloma Anti-CD38–based regimens for transplant-eligible and transplant-ineligible patients Clinical evidence supporting triplet and quadruplet therapies MRD assessment and response-adapted treatment strategies Frailty, transplant eligibility, and individualized treatment selection Subcutaneous anti-CD38 administration and premedication requirements Pharmacist-led supportive care, toxicity management, dose modification, and patient counseling Get access to all of our new podcasts by subscribing to the Decera Clinical Education Oncology Podcast on Apple Podcasts, YouTube Music, or Spotify. Presenters:James A. Davis, PharmD, BCOP Clinical Pharmacy Specialist, Myeloma/Lymphoma The Medical University of South Carolina, Hollings Cancer Center Affiliate Assistant Professor MUSC College of Pharmacy Charleston, South Carolina Kelley L. Julian, PharmD, BCOP Hematology/BMT Pharmacy Supervisor PGY2 Oncology Pharmacy Residency Program Director Huntsman Cancer Institute, University of Utah Salt Lake City, Utah Link to full program: https://bit.ly/4qaRb7n Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This episode is all about eyes on fall/winter 2026. Tiff and Pam discuss what's top of mind for practices as they look to the final stretch of the year, including stepping up on re-care and reactivation, how to talk about it with patients, and how to make sure it's incorporated into your practice. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team Podcast Listeners. I am so excited to be here with you today. I always am. I literally love doing this with you guys. and I more than that, I love doing this with our consulting team. And I have very, very special women on as our consultant guest today. I have Miss Pam with us today, and you guys have actually not heard from her yet, even though she's been here with us behind the scenes for a little while.   Getting these podcasts like scheduled and in the system and all of those pieces takes a little bit of time sometimes. And Pam is a prized, prized possession in our consulting department. And I am so excited for you guys to meet her. If you work with her already, you are very excited to hear her on the podcast today. I know there's a few of you who are avid listeners who work directly one-on-one with Pam. so I'm excited for you guys to hear from her today.   Pam, I've got you here. We've got the listeners and I'm just so excited to be here with you this morning. You did some prep. I appreciate that. I love the questions and making sure we're ready to go. you prep way more than I do and I value that and you push me to do the same thing. So Pam, thank you for being here. How are you today?   Pamela (01:12) Hi, Tiff. I am doing fantastic. I'm super excited to be here.   Tiffanie (01:17) Good. And you're here in Phoenix as well. We always say we are just so hot and I think we had some rain the other night and I thought by by rain I mean I got some light sprinkles in the backyard and I thought, gosh, this might cool us down and I mean it did, but it was still like a hundred and five at eight PM last night. So how is it you're like forty five minutes ish from me, how is it on your side of Phoenix?   Pamela (01:45) Yeah, we did not get much rain like you. We got like the little pitter patter, but it no, it hasn't rained. I think the storms just go around us. I don't know what's going   Tiffanie (01:55) I think so.   Pamela (01:56) on, but it just makes it humid, so we know what the   Tiffanie (01:59) Yeah.   Pamela (01:59) east coast feels like when there's a little bit of rainstorm coming, but yeah, nothing nothing like the east coast, the humidity, but we do get a little bit.   Tiffanie (02:10) I agree. I always when I travel and and I tell people where I'm from and Pam, I'm sure you have and will continue to experience this as well. When I say I'm from Arizona, everybody goes, my gosh, how do you do that summer? And I always say, Listen, there's a season for everything and everyone, and I don't have to shovel snow, and I love that. And I would take this hundred and twenty degree summer for two months over shoveling snow any day of the week. And Pam, you've done both.   Pamela (02:40) I I have originally I'm from California, so when I moved to Utah to go to college, yes, I experienced shoveling snow and then I raised my kids there. And to be really honest, that's the reason why I moved to Arizona. I couldn't   Tiffanie (02:53) Yeah.   Pamela (02:54) get out of my driveway a couple of times and I'm like, nope, not doing this.   Tiffanie (02:58) No, thank you.   Pamela (02:59) So yes, I agree. I would take the two months of the heat and jump in the pool.   Tiffanie (03:04) Yes, my fiance says the same thing. He had he says that there were multiple times he lived up in Lake Zend, Oregon area. He said there were so many times that he had to shovel out and shovel back in in the same day and he was done and moved to Arizona. So we like to say we don't have a lot of natural disasters or issues here. We just have the heat during the summer. So here we are. I   Pamela (03:26) That's right. Yeah.   Tiffanie (03:27) love it. Well, speaking of seasonalities, I think   Something that's really fun about dentistry is that there's seasonalities in that as well. Everything runs on a cycle, and we like to talk about those cycles within our consulting and Dental A Team runs off of a few different cycles ourselves. And one of those systems, systematic cycles, I shall say, is scheduling and walking into the fall slash winter. The fall slash winter in dentistry is like a mixed bag. I feel like a few years ago.   Everybody was, you know, prepping for September is what we like to call it. And then prepping for October to December to be chaotic and crazy. And then I I really saw a shift within that after COVID. I think the COVID shutdowns were about six months from September, October. And so it shifted and changed quite a bit within that. But we do still see that scheduling really needs to be a high priority in this time period.   And I truly believe with everything I have, whatever we can prep and plan for and take the guesswork out, kind of control what we can and let the rest happen around us and then you know, control what we can within that is the best avenue to take. So making sure that we're looking ahead at things and really taking in those killer systems that can really depict how your fall and winter are gonna go are are gonna be massive. So I wanted to take the listeners here, Pam through a couple of systems and   And again, this is kind of that seasonality. So we chunk it down and we we see every month or every quarter kind of seeing what does that focus need to be within Dental A Team. This is something that we believe is a heavy focus at this time period in this season. So with that, Pam, I really want you to chat through with me Dental A Team systems for sure, but Pam, you've been a consultant and you've been in dentistry for a while, and you've got tips and tricks and tools.   that you brought to our company as well as to the clients that you've served over the years. So I want to pick your brain and speak to obviously Dental A Team systems, but really pick your brain and and kind of see what are some things that you've done in practice, what are things that you're doing with your practices as you're consulting them to prep and plan for this. And one of those spaces and something that's been coming up with a lot of my clients is that recare and reactivation. I know in dentistry and you probably remember this, Pam, I remember this from   years and years and years ago, everything was about new patients. And it was like, how many new patients can we get? How can we get them? Spend on marketing, get the new patients, get the new patients. And there wasn't a lot of focus, I don't think, on the other side of it. So keeping the new patients for sure was never a thought, right? It was just get more. And then the recare piece was kind of an afterthought. It was like, well if the schedule's falling apart and we don't have new patients, then we call on recare. And that mindset   really did a disservice because if we're not taking care of the people that are coming, like what are we really doing? And I think it gave a little bit of a foothold for things like DSOs to step in and really take over, but we're trying to shift that and practices are shifting that model. And hygienists especially are always really concerned now about what's happening with my patient I've already spent so much time with.   So when it comes to recare and reactivation, we'll focus recare first. Pam, what are some things that you hammer in with practices to make sure that that recare is happening, whether it's a new patient or a patient they've had for 15 years?   Pamela (07:05) Yeah, great question, Tiff. And I I do feel like I've seen that same shift as well.   Tiffanie (07:10) Yeah.   Pamela (07:11) So I I think that recare percentage is such a big deal because it does tell us are we bleeding out the back? Are we losing patients that were right in front of us and we could have scheduled them right then? That is the most effective and efficient way to do that. I I tell hygienists give the patient   A reason to return. Like notice an area that tells that says, hey, I'm well, I'm looking at this area. Your upper right is having a little inflammation and some, you know, I got just a little bleeding, not anything to worry about, but I'm gonna note that and write it down in your notes so they see you noting it, right? And   Tiffanie (07:56) Yeah.   Pamela (07:56) that you will come back to say to them, I'm I'm really excited to see you in six months. And when you come back, we're gonna check.   check on this and and just you do a great job with your home care. Just do a little extra on that upper right side and we'll see what you can do at home.   Tiffanie (08:15) I love that because you're really   focusing in on them being seen, you know, and the value of the cleaning. I think we oftentimes say, you know, let's get you scheduled for your next cleaning. And it's like, well, I schedule my next carpet cleaning when it's needed. And I know you're really heavy on the verbiage and the way that we speak about it as well. And and us as a company, we use things like you guys have heard of NDTR.   the handoff and the reason that the recare is in there is because we want to put the value on the appointment and not just that routine cleaning. So setting that up where it's like, hey, we saw this, we're gonna check on this when you're when you come back in and then you look at your dose and you do it really sets the value for the personalization, the relationship, and it changes the script on the value of the quote unquote cleaning. What is it I'm trying to remember as I'm speaking palm and I'm not it's not coming to me.   What is it that you there's something that you change and I can't remember what it is or you you coach practices through how to speak to scheduling that recare appointment and I can't I can't think of what it is. What is it?   Pamela (09:24) Yeah, yeah,   no, I know exactly what you're talking about. So I I teach teams to say something like, you know, we consider this a confirmed appointment as a courtesy. We will always send you text reminders by email, you know, let's make sure, let's go up front. You said you didn't get one last time, let's make sure we have the right phone number on on file and   If you happen to have a change in your schedule, please let us know 48 hours in advance. And that way we can get you back in. But I really want to check on that one area so that you go back to that reason to return as you're doing that handoff. But I like saying that it is, we already consider this confirmed.   As a courtesy, we are just going to send you those reminders. So it's an easy   Tiffanie (10:14) Yeah.   Pamela (10:15) way to kind of also inform and remind your patients about your cancellation, or we don't say cancellation, right? About your about your   Tiffanie (10:24) Yeah. Confirmation process. Yeah.   Pamela (10:27) exactly. Yeah.   Tiffanie (10:28) Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And what you did there too is they're scheduling in the back office then. So it sounds   Pamela (10:33) Yes.   Tiffanie (10:34) like you've got hygiene scheduling their next recare, which I think allows for that personalization again and that like importance that's being placed on it. Not to say that other appointments aren't important, but they're coming up quicker. And so when the when you're tied to the hygienist and that is the person you're coming to see, I mean, we've all experienced where   a patient, you know, gets switched to a different hygienist or the hygienist maybe moves out of state and they're no longer seeing that hygienist. They're like, wait, where's Joanna? Like I've been seeing Joanna forever and they're a patient of the practice, but they get attached. My fiance's very attached to Amy at his place. Like I've never even met her and I know I know about her because he's very attached to her. The kids are attached to her. And that places value on the appointment and makes it more difficult for us to cancel it.   Now recare is phenomenal, tracking that, making sure that there's like in the background, there's constantly recare efforts going on. So we're making phone calls, we're sending out the emails, coming up due, do now, past due reminders, all of those pieces are always happening. Pam, something that I struggle with. practices. If you're busy, what tends to happen is we're like, well, we can't if I can't fit   appointments in my hygiene schedule. So I'm not going to call on them because then I'm just disappointing patients. The likelihood of them answering is very slim. And so when you reduce your outgoing efforts, now you need the schedule full and you're just igniting those efforts. You're not going to see a result for probably 30 to 45 days realistically, because it takes like four to seven times your effort to get that return back in. So I beg of you   Please make sure no matter how busy your schedule is, you're always doing recare efforts to help you keep that schedule busy. Something that I love to do with my practices, Pam, I think we all do, is really, really, really capitalize on the patient base that they have, not just active patient base. But there's some some practices have been around. I've got one that's been around for like 30 years. It was his grandfather's, it was his dad's, now it's his.   And they've got like 19,000 patients in their database and like six thousand active patients for three doctors, right? So I'm like, you guys have thirteen thousand patients that haven't been touched. And I'm not saying everybody's got thirteen thousand, but everybody has inactive patients. Every month patients go inactive. That's your attrition rate. Every month patients are sliding out the back door, like Pam talked about, and we're focused on new patients. You got 24 new patients, but you lost five.   You only have nineteen patients added to your patient base. So those five patients, when are they being touched on? So that reactivation program or campaign, I really have them focus, Pam, on those patients who are not active in the practice and just getting touch points onto them like emails. You can do phone calls too, but really making sure we're hitting those people who have an established relationship, just maybe haven't come in, they forgot. What do you what do you do?   Pamela (13:43) Yeah, no, I I love that and I think that's really true. I think sometimes in dentistry we think we haven't seen them in 18 months, they've forgotten about us,   Tiffanie (13:52) Yeah.   Pamela (13:53) but I don't think so. I think that they still think, that's my dentist. And   Tiffanie (13:58) I agree.   Pamela (13:59) right when they even if it's been two years and they haven't been in, you know, people may not be as conscientious about coming every six months. That's okay, but we still want to reach out to them and whether that's by email, whether   It's you're making you know a big email campaign to reactivate those patients, or it's a texting program, right? That you have. I think you know, look for those patients that haven't had an exam and reach   Tiffanie (14:27) Mm.   Pamela (14:27) out for those patients just to get them back in. And like you said, it takes some time to do, but when they are prompted, I think, and they know that you care, they're more likely to just give you a call. And in this day and age, I've   believe a hundred percent what you said people are not picking up their phone right yeah so it's yeah I might pick it up either I don't pick it up either unless I recognize the number so   Tiffanie (14:47) Yeah. Yeah. I'm not. I no ain't nobody got time for that. No. Yes.   And I'm ready to talk to them. I still have to be ready to talk to them. I have to be in a space. I have to be in a mindset. I have to be ready to engage in whatever this conversation is that's about to come. So even if I recognize the number, I'm like, I don't really have the space for it right now. So I will call you back. And then six months goes by and I'm like, wow, I never did that.   Like I never I never finished that. So then two years goes by, right? I have a friend that was we were messaging on Instagram just last night about her wedding and our wedding coming up and all of these pieces. And she's like, I can't believe how big Brody is. And we realized my son is 18. We have not seen each other in person since he was a baby. She lives three hours from me. Like we put that together and I was like, gosh, but the reality is it didn't feel that long. It felt like   It was just the other day because we have this this social media connection, right? She's in front of me. And so it felt different. And so when we're in front of the people, even our email correspondences, things like that, if we're in front of them, that time passes differently. It doesn't feel as long into your point, Pam. With all of those correspondence continuing to go, you still feel like that's my dentist, right? That's my practice, like that's who I'm going to go to.   when I'm ready and how many patients have we answered the phone for and they're like, my gosh, I can't believe it's been two years since I've been there. I'm like, time really does fly. so the reactivation campaigns are huge. And to me, I think of those patients almost like new patients, right? Because they haven't been seen. And so they they need a full workup. They need all of the pieces. You didn't spend any money to get them.   And their appointments are easier because they already have a relationship with the practice. So it's way less work, time, and money to reactivate people than it is to continue to search for new patients. Let the new patients come in, let the new patient flow be there, and reactivate patients simultaneously.   Pamela (16:59) Yeah, a absolutely. And I I love your point that it's just it's should be part of our processes. It should be part   Tiffanie (17:05) Okay.   Pamela (17:06) of our systems. And you know, if we tend to let that go, we're letting a huge opportunity just pass us by. And just if we focus only on those eighteen months patients, you know, we're doing a huge disservice truly to our   Tiffanie (17:20) Absolutely.   Pamela (17:21) patients. And I I think it's really wise to keep that going. you know, whether that like   you like we said an email campaign or a texting campaign and just put it on a system so you know whatever that is tackle it by you know x amount of patients per day per week however you're gonna do it just systemize systematize it so that you are continuing to hit those patients reach out   Tiffanie (17:49) Yep, I   have a practice I talked to about this last week and she was like, Well, do we do this every month? And I'm like, actually, you're gonna do it twice a month. And you're gonna have one that's 18 to 24, and then you're gonna have one that's 24 plus, and they're gonna go twice a month because every day someone new falls into one of those categories. And so no matter what, you're hitting them multiple times in the foreseeable future, and eventually they're either gonna call back and say, Hey, we moved out of state.   Or they're gonna call back and say, Thank you so much for sending fifteen emails. You finally got my attention and I'm scheduling this appointment.   Pamela (18:23) Yeah, and and that's a really good point, Tiff. Like being conscientious and really aware of when you are deciding to delete a patient, right?   Tiffanie (18:36) Yeah.   Pamela (18:36) I think there needs to be some actual communication and that you've talked to that patient and they say, Yes, I have moved, and you don't know what happened. They could have said they were gonna move and they didn't, you know. So and then we just delete them out of our system, and I I don't think that's   right thing. I think we need to be really aware and have have a system built in. If you have talked to the patient and they told you that they have moved, then okay, I get that. But we don't just go deleting patients willy-nilly.   Tiffanie (19:10) I totally agree. I totally agree. And even I have doctors that are like, well, I just purchased this practice, right? So like I need new patients. And I'm like, my gosh, phenomenal. Everyone who's ever been in that practice is a new patient to you. You've already paid for them. So let's get as much as we can out of that before paying for more new patients.   Pamela (19:30) Absolutely. And I have several practices like that right now that have just purchased in the last two years. And I remind them of that constantly because they, you   Tiffanie (19:39) Yep.   Pamela (19:39) know, and and right we hear this all the time in dentistry. I need more new patients. I need you have a gold mine sitting there. And so   Tiffanie (19:48) Yeah.   Pamela (19:48) go go mining. Go get them. They're   Tiffanie (19:50) Yes.   Pamela (19:51) yours.   Tiffanie (19:52) Yes. I agree. I agree. And when they say the team says, I don't have time, great, let's strategize and let's find the time. And like you said, Pam, like so many things can be automated right now. And I think everyone prefers the automation at this point. It's not I think in twenty eighteen to like twenty twenty two we were really still fighting that automation piece. But now it's twenty twenty six at the time of recording this and we are we are ready for it. Just allow to use it. Yeah.   Pamela (20:19) I I agree a hundred percent. Like we can do more in the dental let's not stay back in those ages. Let's move forward to, you know, with   Tiffanie (20:27) Yes.   Pamela (20:28) the times. And I it just makes life easier anyway because people are oriented that way now. So   Tiffanie (20:31) Yeah. I agree.   Pamela (20:34) yeah, so I think great point. Love it.   Tiffanie (20:36) Always impressed me how dentistry can be so forward thinking and have so much tech in the back office, right? We've got C B C T scans that were never there when I was physically in office. We've got all these scanners, we we're making crowns in office, they're making dentures, they're painting dentures and doing this in office and blowing my mind. But we still have paper charts in some offices. Like I can't   I can't understand, my brain can't understand the difference, the stark difference in the back office versus front office, like forward thinking and and movement there, the advances.   Pamela (21:13) Yeah.   I I could not agree more and you know   Sometimes we have people that are just sort of stuck in doing that   Tiffanie (21:20) Okay.   Pamela (21:21) and that that's okay. But embrace it because I I'm gonna tell you it will make your job so much easier to embrace that   Tiffanie (21:28) I do.   Pamela (21:29) technology. And I think the front office is more difficult to move to that direction. You know, when I go in an office and I see them handing the patient a paper chart, I'm like, okay, well, and and that is applicable in a lot of areas. Okay, in some places, I get that, but   And you know, digital is the way of the future. We need to catch up. And once you make that switch, you will go, my gosh, this is amazing. It's so awesome.   Tiffanie (21:59) I agree.   I totally agree with you. Yeah, I love it. Well, I think those are two incredible systems that really truly help build a profitable schedule and help prep for if you're gonna have a September, have a September, but also it helps prep you for even the busy period. It just keeps it consistent. And when you can build that consistency into anything in life, it becomes less chaotic, especially when you can build the consistency back into your schedule, whether it's hygiene.   or doctor side, these patients have to come in somewhere and they will all be caught within a recare system andor a reactivation system. So Pam, this was incredible. I I knew it was going to be amazing. I knew it was going to be very easy. Thank you for your time today and everyone, all of all of our listeners here today, if you're interested in these, obviously reach out. If you don't have them in place or you're like, gosh, maybe you guys have something that's a little bit different.   Reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. We're always happy to share as much information as we possibly can. You can also go to hello, nope, to TheDentalATeam.com No, hello. You can go to TheDentalATeam.com and you can always schedule a call with us to chat about any of these pieces. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com, TheDentalATeam.com. And as always, leave us a five-star review so that we know that you loved and enjoyed this. Pam, thank you so much for your time today.   I know we had to reschedule this as well. Thank you for being flexible with my schedule. you are an incredible consultant and you are so valued on our team. And I cannot wait for all of the listeners to hear this. So Pam, thank you.   Pamela (23:34) Thank you, Tiff, it was a pleasure.   Tiffanie (23:37) Of course, of course. All right, listeners. if you are driving, go sit down somewhere, listen back to this, take some notes, reach out to us, hello at the dunalytime.com, and as always, have an amazing day. We'll catch you next time.

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C'est peut-être un détail pour vous… mais pour moi, ça veut dire beaucoup.Un nouveau rendez-vous de La Cohorte où l'on revient sur des phrases entendues dans les interviews du podcast. Des phrases qu'on aurait tort de laisser filer car elles révèlent beaucoup sur la manière de construire son business freelance!Aujourd'hui, on se replonge dans l'interview de Philippe, ingénieur et data scientist hyper spécialisé en maintenance prédictive pour les PME industrielles.Je reviens sur deux passages clés :– quand Philippe explique pourquoi l'hyper spécialisation ne ferme pas des portes… mais permet au contraire d'être trouvé au bon moment par les bons prospects,– et quand il montre comment il utilise des cas clients concrets pour prouver qu'il est la solution à un problème précis, plutôt qu'un profil “compétent parmi d'autres”.Deux détails qui invitent à un exercice salutaire : arrêter de réfléchir uniquement à ce que tu sais faire… et te demander quelles sont les alternatives réelles de tes prospects s'ils ne passent pas par toi.CDI, autre freelance, internalisation, IA… Plus les options sont nombreuses, plus il devient stratégique de mieux définir ton terrain de jeu.Et toi: pense au dernier prospect avec la/lequel-le tu as échangé, si elle ou il ne bosse pas avec toi demain, quelles sont ses alternatives?Pour me répondre, envoie-moi un mp sur Linkedin

Personality Changes After Stroke: How Ben Sautter Discovered His “Hyde” and Became a Better Man  For nearly a decade, Ben Sautter carried a story he didn’t fully understand. He was a respected superintendent for the City of Helena, a devoted father, and a man his colleagues trusted. He was also someone who, years earlier, had been convicted of drug trafficking and spent over a year in prison, a period he now describes without shame or remorse, feelings he says he simply didn’t have access to. “I never felt guilty about doing anything,” he told me. “I never had no shame, no remorse. I still don’t.” Then, on a morning in 2017, Ben woke up with his left leg buzzing like an electrical current, from his hip to his toe. He dismissed it as sciatica, worked out to try to shake it off, and drove himself to a doctor’s appointment while slurring his words. By the time he reached his physician’s office, she recognized what was happening immediately: Ben was in the middle of a stroke. What followed wasn’t just a physical recovery. It became the beginning of a profound psychological reckoning one that reshaped how Ben understood himself, his marriage, and the two very different versions of the man he’d been his entire adult life. What Personality Changes After Stroke Can Actually Look Like When people talk about the effects of stroke, the conversation usually centers on physical deficits: weakness, speech difficulty, mobility. Less discussed but just as real for many survivors are the personality changes after stroke that surface in the weeks, months, and even years that follow. For Ben, this didn’t show up as a dramatic before-and-after moment. It took roughly six months before he began to notice his own cognitive shifts, and years more before he could name what he was experiencing. “I feel like two different people,” he eventually admitted to himself, a recognition that came into sharp focus only after his wife, Helen, described what she called his “Jekyll and Hyde” pattern: a caring, grounded version of himself, and a sharper, more reactive one that could surface without warning, particularly under emotional pressure. Ben also discovered something else in the process something many survivors don’t expect. Before his stroke, he says he operated almost entirely on three emotions: happy, sad, and angry. It wasn’t until his wife introduced him to a “feelings wheel” years after his stroke that he realized how narrow his emotional range had actually been. That flattened emotional landscape, paired with a striking absence of guilt or fear around risky behavior earlier in his life, points to something researchers increasingly recognize: strokes can affect not just movement and speech, but emotional regulation, impulse control, and self-awareness, particularly when the affected regions touch circuitry involved in processing feeling and consequence. The Unexpected Overlap With PTSD One of the more striking parts of Ben’s story is how he came to understand his own symptoms. Watching a 60 Minutes segment on a military veteran with PTSD, Ben recognized his own thoughts, words, and behaviors reflected back at him patterns his psychologist at the VA had already been treating with PTSD-informed techniques, without Ben fully grasping why. “That’s when I realized my family suffered the stroke as much as I did,” he said. This overlap isn’t unusual. Post-stroke psychological symptoms hypervigilance, emotional reactivity, difficulty processing what happened can closely resemble trauma responses, even in survivors who never experienced combat or acute crisis in the traditional sense. Recognizing this early, and getting connected with the right kind of psychological support, can make a meaningful difference in how survivors and their families move through recovery. Turning Reflection Into Change What makes Ben’s story remarkable isn’t just that he noticed these changes; it’s what he did with them. Nearly ten years after his stroke, and after years of separation from his wife, Ben sat down and wrote his memoir, Mr. Hyde and Me, in just ten weeks. “I called this therapy on steroids,” he said. “Writing this book was incredibly therapeutic.” The process gave him a framework to finally understand the dual nature he’d lived with since childhood, shaped, he believes, by an upbringing where feelings were dismissed, and risk-taking was treated as fun rather than dangerous. “That guy that I was, that guy’s gone. I am not going to be that guy ever again.” — Ben Sautter Today, Ben and Helen are reconciled. He describes himself as calmer, more deliberate, and a better listener than he was before his stroke, not despite the personality changes it triggered, but in some ways because of the self-awareness they eventually forced him to confront. As he put it plainly: “We would not be having this conversation if I hadn’t had a stroke.” If You’re Noticing Changes in Yourself or a Loved One If you or someone you love has experienced personality changes after stroke emotional flatness, increased irritability, impulsivity, or a sense of feeling like “two different people” you’re not imagining it, and you’re not alone. These changes are a recognized part of many stroke recoveries, and they respond well to the right combination of professional support, honest communication with family, and time. Ben’s full story, including his path through incarceration, his stroke, and the years-long process of understanding his own mind, is available in The Unexpected Way That A Stroke Became The Best Thing That Happened, where survivors share the tools that helped them navigate recovery, available at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. If this show has helped you, you can support it at patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. This blog is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your doctor before making any changes to your health or recovery plan. Jekyll, Hyde, and the Stroke That Changed Everything: Ben Sautter’s Story (Interview) Bill’s Book: The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing That Happened Support Bill on: Patreon Bill’s one-on-one coaching program: Momentum Highlights: 00:00 Introduction – Personality Changes After Stroke 03:51 Realizing Something Was Wrong 12:51 Discovering His Dual Personality 21:05 Living With Only Three Emotions 31:50 Where the Pattern Began 39:55 Writing the Memoir That Helped Him Understand Himself 50:37 Stroke as a Catalyst for Change Transcript: Introduction – Personality Changes After Stroke Bill Gasiamis (00:00) Welcome back to Recovery After Stroke. I’m Bill Gassiamas, and today’s guest is Ben Sautter, a stroke survivor from Montana who in 2017 suffered an ischemic stroke caused by a carotid artery blockage. Ben was in his mid-50s working as a superintendent for the city of Helena when he woke up one morning with his leg buzzing like it was electric and his speech starting to slur. But this episode isn’t really about the stroke itself. It’s about what the stroke uncovered. Ben spent decades living what he now calls a Jekyll and Hyde existence, including a period of incarceration for drug trafficking that he says he felt no guilt over at the time. And after his stroke, that started to change. We talk about emotional flatness, PTSD like symptoms he didn’t recognize until years later. The marriage he nearly lost and the memoir he wrote in just ten weeks that finally helped him understand himself. Before we get into it, if you haven’t already, check out my book, The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing That Happened, over at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. And if this show has helped you, you can support it at Patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke, and you can help me keep it going so that we can get to one thousand episodes. If you’re feeling stuck in your recovery and want more structure and one-on-one support, I also offer a coaching program called Momentum. You can find out more at recoveryafterstroke.com/momentum. Now let’s get into it. Here’s my conversation with Ben. Bill Gasiamis (01:42) Benjamin Sautter welcome to the podcast. Ben Sautter (01:45) Thanks much for having me. Bill Gasiamis (01:49) Can you tell me a little bit about what life was like before twenty seventeen and the stroke? Ben Sautter (01:55) Well, I was on it back then before the stroke. I was had a job that I really enjoyed. I was working for the city of Helena as a superintendent of streets and traffic division. And life was going really good for me there. And then it kind of came to a an abrupt halt. Bill Gasiamis (02:15) what was life like as far as what kind of work were you doing? What was family life like? Ben Sautter (02:23) Well, our family was pretty close at the time. We have two children and we were busy, we were really close, busy traveling. We had a motor home, we had lots of fun. we hunt and fish, a lot of outdoor activities here. We we have a little cabin that we spend all our weekends at. if we weren’t traveling, that is. so Home life was pretty good. My wife and I were struggling a bit before I had my stroke. but we were a close family. And and work was good. I I I’d progressed up into mid-level management and I I had great great people, great staff underneath of me, and we got a lot of good work done for the city and had a lot of fun at work. work was going good. Everything was going pretty good. Bill Gasiamis (03:25) Was there any sign that something was amiss with your health that perhaps there was something looming that wasn’t going to be fun? Ben Sautter (03:36) No, I was I was in great shape. I had had no signs of anything coming. so it was yeah, it was out of the blue. The stroke was out of the blue. Realizing Something Was Wrong Bill Gasiamis (03:51) What was that day like? Was there any kind of deficit deficits that you experienced that gave you a hint that something was going wrong? Or how did it evolve? Ben Sautter (04:00) Well, I woke up in the morning to go to work, I knew something was funny and I couldn’t figure it out. I think when I woke up, I got I get up early and to get in before my first crew was in the mechanics were in at six. So I was in before that. But when I woke up my left leg was just buzzing like it was electric from my hip. To my toe. And I didn’t comprehend. I was thinking it was like a sciatic something because I had a little sciatic pain from time to time in my right side, even though I knew this wasn’t the same, but I didn’t have the cognitive awareness of what was going on. And so I I worked out in the middle of it thinking maybe it was. muscles in my back and if I exercise did go away and and it didn’t when I and I went on into work and my my mechanics were nervous. I I was starting to slur my words and and I I kind of felt it. I a I asked him I think if I was slurring my words And they just kind of smiled at me. And I went back up to my office and then another one of my other supervisors came in and he sat down. He could tell something wasn’t right with me. And then he left and they were all getting together to come and check me out, and I left. I I had a a meeting, or not a meeting. I had a doctor’s appointment out at the VA Fort Harrison at for 7 30 that morning. And so I was I was late and I think I d I think my doctor called me and I was on the road driving out there and she I told her kind of things were funny and what was going on. And she said, Well, you need to get out here, get a ride out here. I said, Well, I’m driving. She said, God, no. I th she pretty well could tell she thought I was having a stroke right there. And I drove out there, I went upstairs to see her and they took me right down to the emergency right there. Bill Gasiamis (06:39) And Did they immediately diagnose that you were having a stroke? Ben Sautter (06:47) We’re getting a little blurry on me right there. I I I don’t really remember what they thought right at the time, right at that moment when I was in the emergency. I know a couple hours later they came to me and there was no doubt about it. They they knew then they had speech therapists in and a neurologist in the room and that’s so it took a couple hours to for a sure diagnosis that I was in the middle of a stroke. Best I remember. Bill Gasiamis (07:27) Hm. It’s pretty common that yeah, pretty common that you’re not gonna remember exactly what was happening at that time. Things were compromised. That makes complete sense. how long before well rather at some point you’re told that you had a stroke, how do you take that information? Ben Sautter (07:48) I don’t know that it it didn’t go over my head, but I I I wasn’t devastated. I and because I wasn’t I I was familiar with stroke, my father’d had strokes and he’d been paralyzed and lost his speech, so his were very severe. So at the time I I wasn’t feeling that I was that impacted by it. I knew some things were going on, but looking back I can tell I just didn’t have the the awareness of what was happening to me, even though I knew it. but it it just didn’t feel serious to me. Bill Gasiamis (08:34) It didn’t sink in, perhaps. Ben Sautter (08:36) yeah, I w I would say so. Certainly not the gravity of it. and it actually it took quite some time. I’d say at least six months, really, before I started being aware of my cognitive deficiencies and and wondering. asking myself questions even though within a week’s time I was at VA Salt Lake to have surgery on my carotid artery. So all that happened and I was still it’s not that I was in denial. Well, I didn’t think I was, but now looking back, I that could have been what it was. But but I was aware. I knew it happened. Gosh, I had surgery. I I understood it all. I saw the MRI. I saw the mark on my brain. I had the surgeries I said. but I it it just the seriousness of it didn’t sink into me. Cause within Bill Gasiamis (09:50) Mm. Ben Sautter (09:50) two weeks, my doc cut me loose, my surgeon, I was up in the woods hunting. Full tilt. They gave me they said, go ahead. So that kinda helped me believe that I the word what what I said, I dodged a bullet is how I put it. And even though I didn’t really dodge the bullet. Bill Gasiamis (10:19) so you said that you had about six months where you kind of had no real awareness or your cognition was impacted. What obviously your cognition was was impacted, but what other deficits did you have? Ben Sautter (10:40) I would just say the cognition, the physical part, I had that numbness in my leg. I didn’t even have a limp from it, but my whole leg f well, it’s still somewhat for for years was like I say, like it w my whole leg was stuck in a light socket, just buzzing like electric from my hip to my toe, and and that lasted a long, long time. my leg got real heavy. I had to like I say, I could it didn’t show that I was limping or anything, but I had to work at that to not let it show. I had to make sure I high stepped kinda so my toe didn’t drag and I didn’t trip. I had to be very well aware of that to make it look like I was okay. But but really physically it didn’t show. Bill Gasiamis (11:43) Your introductory email to me about joining me on the podcast was interesting. what you had seems to be a catalyst for some change in your life. Like what occurred to you, the stroke, the hospitalization, the challenges that you had to come seems to be a catalyst for change in your life. Before the stroke in twenty seventeen, you said your wife and yourself were going through some difficult times. but you were busy at work, you had a a whole bunch of other things going on. but there’s another side of you, there was another side of you at some stage that you were living a life that you were living that’s not quite the run of the mill standard lifestyle. Tell me a little bit about that. And was that lifestyle that you’re gonna to tell us a little bit about now? Was that something that you lived until your stroke? Discovering His Dual Personality Ben Sautter (12:36) I’m living that still right now. that dual personality. And after the stroke, it was it might have taken a couple of years of me looking back. I was finally looking back, wondering who that guy was, that other guy. I I would say to myself. I feel like two different people. And it wasn’t until after the stroke, I think, that I really asked that heart or asked that question, or said that to myself, that I feel like two different people. And that came from questioning the things I did when I was younger. I was pretty wild guy and I did things that didn’t seem like me, yet I know I did all those things. Well hell I I got arrested, went to prison. So I know I was doing stuff that I shouldn’t have been doing. But back then it was Pretty easy to do. And I it it wasn’t, it didn’t feel like me doing it. so after the stroke, I really started asking questions, trying to, trying to look back to understand. And I never got that understanding until I wrote that book last year. And then it all just poured out. And I could see the dual personality and and and I still am that dual guy. My wife is able to recognize that more now, and when she s tells me about it, I can really see it when she explains it, especially what I say. I I say things I say things that I don’t mean that aren’t me, that I don’t understand why I say those things. It’s and I named it Hyde. And it Hyde speaks different than I do, than Jekyll. Bill Gasiamis (15:11) How old were you when you ended up in prison and how old were you when you got out? Ben Sautter (15:16) I was thirty two when I got arrested and I was only out for like thirteen months so I was thirty thir about I was thirty four when I got out. Bill Gasiamis (15:28) And the stuff that you went in for, what kind of things were you doing that ended you up in prison? Ben Sautter (15:38) I was I got arrested for drug trafficking. Bill Gasiamis (15:42) And at the time was there a certain amount of disassociation from the behavior? And did you kind of find yourself doing things that you just weren’t, what was it, maybe like connected to logically? How how did you find yourself being in a situation that you now describe as this was not? U or it was another U.S. Ben Sautter (16:14) That’s good question. I have to say I don’t really understand yet where I was back then. It I I had to that it had to be that disassociation because I was a legitimate guy. I worked, I had jobs, I had good respect from people. I I was a legitimate man all day long every day. And I just slip out and Did stuff. I I d I had no feelings about it. I I wasn’t I never felt guilty about doing anything. I never had no shame, no remorse. I still don’t. I don’t feel those feelings. They just aren’t in me. Even after the book, after writing that and starting to understand that I don’t have those feelings, which I still don’t, but way back then. I didn’t give a s I didn’t give a first thought to any of that illicit stuff I was doing. It was opportunity and I just went and did it. Didn’t give it a thought. Bill Gasiamis (17:31) Got it. And then when you ended up coming out of prison, did you go back onto the straight and narrow? Did you still double? How was life after that? Because it was thirty years almost, you know, between your incarceration and then your stroke. So I I’m just trying to set the scene just so I can ask you the next question later on about the stroke. So what was life like after the incarceration? Ben Sautter (17:56) So and I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately and writing about that. And that I had to make a very conscious decision. And and the way I put that, prison didn’t rehabilitate me. I had to make that decision that okay, I want to go back there. I need to I need to watch I need to watch over myself. and keep myself out of trouble, which all those big crimes were the problem, but little things, I I went hunting, I was a poacher, I I trespassed, those types of things. I was very careful not to be caught speeding in a car or any of that, drinking and driving. a little bit I’d find myself doing that and that was a difficult thing to overcome of to quit drinking and and so I was I’d find myself drunk behind the wheel and I I finally again made a conscious decision decision but it took a little time to work out of that to finally draw a line in the sand. In fact it wasn’t until a year or two after I got married that I finally just quit drinking completely. And that was good. That was a good move. so it was w I can’t say that it was a struggle, but it was risky for me out of prison that I didn’t get caught at those littler, less severe law breaking. Bill Gasiamis (19:53) Yeah. Ben Sautter (19:54) Yeah. Living With Only Three Emotions Bill Gasiamis (19:55) So what I’m hearing here is a you’re you’ve described yourself as Hyde. There’s a Jekyll somewhere here as well. and and also in your description of your behaviour and the way that you weren’t associated with it, or you have no feeling about something, or you know or you have no connection to what it meant when you were breaking the law. It sounds a little bit sociopathic and it sounds like perhaps there was a some kind of a what people might describe as a psych as a psychiatric kind of challenge or issue there. Has that ever come up in a conversation with anybody? Ben Sautter (20:41) No, more the compartmentalization dissociation. I lived with and I didn’t know this until twenty twenty one or twenty two, I lived with three emotions, happy, sad, and angry. That’s and and I learned that when my wife brought out a feelings wheel. And she brought out this feelings wheel and sh she’s saying, tell me which Where you land on some of these, and I thought, well, happy and sad and and angry. And that’s about as far as I went with it. And once in a while I’d feel a little something, but not really very much. So so that’s when I learned I was operating on three emotions. That’s all I ever had. So that really showed the compartmentalization and the disassociation right there. psychopathic or psychopath has never come up even with my psychologist. she never identified that but I just saw her for the first time since I read wrote the book a few weeks ago and gave her a copy of the book and she was a little bit wide-eyed and surprised. at the book and she’s reading it. So what kind of conversation we’re gonna have now will be really interesting to go back and see her. But but answer to your question, no, psychopath, no, just compartmentalizing Bill Gasiamis (22:26) Yeah, so sociopath, not psychopaths. Yeah. Ben Sautter (22:28) Sociopath, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (22:31) Sociopaths tend to be people who in the moment can’t connect with the behavior, good, bad, indifferent, and then later on have the ability to kind of notice that the behaviour was inappropriate in some way, shape, or form, and kind of have well, maybe not regret, but kind of some understanding of behavior being inappropriate. Whereas psychopaths are completely different, like they have no empathy, no nothing, right? There’s nothing there. So that’s a that’s kind of not where where where I was headed. I wasn’t asking Ben Sautter (23:06) Yeah. Bill Gasiamis (23:07) that. But it’s interesting that you describe these two separate, separate versions of yourself. it’s not uncommon to how I describe myself after the stroke, but I didn’t have a Jekyll and Hyde streak in me. But I had a line in the sand. The stroke seemed to take my brain offline for a little while and it allowed me to connect with other parts of my body. Specifically, I talk about connecting with my heart and it made me more empathetic and more able to kind of access what what my values were rather than what my head thought was the right thing to do or what what my head thought was the right approach or the right way to go about things. So it seems like the stroke has played some kind of a similar role in your ability to reflect on your past in a different way, th in a more associated way compared to what you had done before. Is that accurate? Ben Sautter (24:07) Absolutely. we talk about the stroke not being all bad for me because I’ve become far more aware. and that awareness is big, not just of my past and who I was, but being able to listen so much better and be more aware of what I say, think, and do. much more so. So so yeah, the stroke has I the stroke has been good for me in in a lot of ways, cause causes some of those difficulties without a a doubt, but I think my wife would agree that I’m a better person, despite the change in moral compass after the my incarceration, but I still was a Jekyll and Hyde, and I still am today. I she can see me come in and out of it much quicker than I have any idea. not necessarily on a daily basis, on an hourly basis and in conversation. She can see by what I say. Bill Gasiamis (25:27) what’s better about being able to listen more? you said that you you were able to hear more or pay attention better in a conversation, for example. Why is that better? Ben Sautter (25:37) The understanding, the understanding of the person I’m talking to, and the understanding of myself and and listening listening to hear rather than listening to respond. So though that’s really that’s big for me because I used to be so quick. I’d hear something, I could make decisions, I was very impulsive. I’ve I’ve really rein that in to calm myself down and and just listen better, be slower, more deliberate, more purposeful. All all all of those things are much better for me. In fact, I didn’t have any of that before before the stroke. I was full tilt on everything. I I thought I did. I thought I was very considerate, concerned, and listened, but in comparison, no. That wasn’t me. Bill Gasiamis (26:37) I it you said it’s better for you. Like why how is it better for you? How has it improved your life? Ben Sautter (26:44) I’m not banging heads so much. I I I let people have their thoughts, their opinions, and and I don’t take offense to to that. So everything’s calmer and and I I just don’t have the head banging I used to have. Bill Gasiamis (27:04) Why is it important for people to have their opinions and their thoughts? Ben Sautter (27:08) Well, I’m right and you’re wrong. Isn’t that what it’s all about? Everybody wants to be right and and think that that everybody should agree with them. That’s that’s how I see it now. It’s like, and if yeah, I’m right and you’re wrong. And I that I don’t do that anymore. Bill Gasiamis (27:31) Got it. Got it. This part of you that your wife still sees that you’ve kind of been able to rein in, like is it a sinister side of you that she sees? Is it the conniving side of you? Is it the the the one that’s possible to be led astray? Which side of it does she still see that kind of attends these conversations with your wife? Ben Sautter (27:55) I d I I’m not sure how you how you name this. perfect example is if I I d slip up, do something wrong and Helen will bring my attention to it, I’ll say, Well, I just did that to see if you’re paying attention. So I I try to deflect things. I I have that I definitely the inferiority or or or and on myself. We’re all our own worst critic, of course, and and I I really feel self conscious. I know my deficiencies and I I go back and forth. I I know my deficiencies and I live with it. I’m okay with it. But sometimes if someone says something to me, Helen, one one time it’s okay and I get by it, one time it’s like it hits and it hurts. And and I I react, I try to deflect, I say things, hide comes out of me and and says things like to hurt back. And and so I’m and she’s getting better about not letting me do that. And the sooner she says something now, if she says something right away, I go, yeah, sorry, I did say that. Whereas before I didn’t remember saying things and I would say that. She’d say, You she’d wait too long and then tell me you said something. Well, I wouldn’t say that, I don’t think those things. That’s Jekyll saying, I I I don’t even think that. I I I didn’t say that. You took it wrong. Now I’m more believing that Hyde would say those things and and if she comes back quick enough and I can I’m right there. I’m like, yes, yeah, you’re right. And I I can apologize, but I’m getting better and better at not saying those things. and and catching myself now, which is big, to to stop it before it happens. So I I as we talk through this, I am starting to be more aware of Hyde, what he says, what he thinks, and certainly what he does. I I conquered that long time ago. But what he says and what he thinks, I’m starting to catch that before I go wrong. Bill Gasiamis (30:36) You I’m gonna make a lot of assumptions now. You seem very unassuming as a sixty-three year old man who lived a dual life, you know, went to prison and all that. You know, you you wouldn’t pick that up from meeting you on a Zoom call or in person per se, right? and often often people who kind of live double lives, etc., There’s a an underlying cause, something that happened earlier on in life that caused them to take on a certain persona or to be a certain way or to get through a certain difficult time in their upbringing or the circumstances by which they found themselves in. Did you have a origin story? Was there something that you can think back at that perhaps that led you to take the on another persona in certain situations, or is it just how you’ve always been? Where the Pattern Began Ben Sautter (31:33) The way it came out in writing my memoir, it was from when I was little, really little, and there was two things about it. We didn’t talk about feelings. Yeah, when you get hurt, you d you don’t you don’t cry about it, or you just don’t cry about it, you don’t feel anything. And my dad was a risk taker. And he was so a lot of fun. He taught me some of my worst habits, if not most of them. And and I followed in his footsteps. Risk was inside exciting. Terror was exciting. Being scared was fun. That’s how my dad taught me. And you add that with no feeling, no fear. you just it was easy I said earlier. It was really easy to go do those things shouldn’t do. It was fun and and there was money in it and calculated risks. no problem. It was just no problem. Bill Gasiamis (32:46) Your wife seems to have found something in you that was likable enough to kind of overlook that stuff or or to not see that stuff as being a real issue. Wha what do you think it is that she saw in you that kind of had her be okay with hanging out with a guy who had been incarcerated and perhaps had these tendencies to switch between these two personalities? Ben Sautter (33:13) Well, the incarceration I told her I thought I told her everything. I told Bill Gasiamis (33:18) Ha ha. Ben Sautter (33:19) her I told her enough for me to think I told her everything. And she felt that she saw me pay my dues and She didn’t know a lot up until this last year. she didn’t see the dual side of me. Even though we struggled, she thought it was just me being me. Now it’s so much more clear. And and she’s the one that came up with the Jekyll and Hyde when I was halfway through the book. And stories were coming out she’d never heard before. And that’s when one day she said, You’re like a Jekyll and Hyde. And that really changed the framework of my story. And and it showed me or helped me understand myself, the the dual personality. It still took a little bit to build it through the book to get a full understanding of it and draw a clear picture, but By the time I was done with the book, it was easy to see the dual personality. Bill Gasiamis (34:42) Did your wife what did she like about you though? Like there was s she’s been around for a little while by the sound of it. Ben Sautter (34:52) Yeah, we’ve been together over thirty years. you’d have to ask her that. I I think well, I’m a fun guy. I I was caring and I I that Jekyll guy’s pretty decent fella. You know, I’ve I’ve successfully in business and I’m I’m a hard working guy. I I just that side of me, Nice guy. I think there was a little intrigue probably from my past that I I was an exciting guy. I did a lot of things and and even though once we met, I was really trying to taper down and really trying to get a hold of myself and which I did and and w we did really, really well together for quite a few years and and then I think I wore wore her down with that dual personality. Not think. I know I did. She finally it was too much for her and and and things kinda went south for us. We I I I can’t imagine even though I watched what I put her through, I don’t know how she lasted. she left for a lot of years after my stroke. We split up for a lot of years and and I I’ve made some changes. Bill Gasiamis (36:30) So have you been able to reconcile? Ben Sautter (36:33) Yes, yes Bill Gasiamis (36:34) Okay. Ben Sautter (36:35) we have. Bill Gasiamis (36:36) Do you think anything that you and I have just discussed, anything of that would have been possible if you didn’t have this stroke? Ben Sautter (36:47) Well, I would say no. No. Not unless I’d a wrote the book and it happened like it did. But before the stroke, no, I d I I couldn’t get there. I wanted to, I tried. We we had a lot of conversations, but I just it was like a wall. I I just couldn’t see through it. I couldn’t get through it. I just couldn’t get there. So no, we would not be having this conversation if I hadn’t had a stroke. Bill Gasiamis (37:16) That’s fascinating to me. That’s just fascinating to me that you’ve had this turnaround. And not not to say that turnarounds are complete as soon as the stroke happens or that things are easier or different or better or whatever. But like there seems to be a genuine willingness to discover what this newer version of yourself could be like and could emerge into an author, somebody who wrote book. somebody who’s reconciled with your wife, somebody who’s admitted all these things that you’ve admitted and kind of made a concerted effort to not fall into those traps. Again, you’ve associated with things. And it’s all because of a stroke, because of a carotid artery blockage, or was it a dissection? What was it? Ben Sautter (38:10) It’s just a a blockage above the Y in a little piece of it. I got so lucky. It was a huge blockage and a little tiny piece flaked off, hit me Bill Gasiamis (38:23) Uh-huh. Ben Sautter (38:23) right up in this side, and that’s why they had to go in and remove that chunk of plaque. And Bill Gasiamis (38:30) Yeah. Ben Sautter (38:31) yeah. Bill Gasiamis (38:33) And it’s kind of it seems like it’s for you at least this experience has been really positive, other than the of course risk to your physical well being and your life, right? Seems a lot of positive has come out of it. Ben Sautter (38:51) I would have to agree with that. And and I know Helen would too. I’m I’m much different. I’m a much better person than I was. I so yes, the the stroke you know, I don’t think there’s many people can say that the stroke has done me more good than bad bad. The physical part of it has been a challenge, but I I push that every day and and I’m I’m working hard with that still. But the cognitive part of it, yeah, I I’m a better I’m a better man now. Bill Gasiamis (39:29) Hmm. you’ve got a copy of the book in front of you, I believe. Ben Sautter (39:33) Yes. Bill Gasiamis (39:34) Show us the the book. Tell me a little bit about how you came to write it. Like what’s the what what why did you feel the need to write the book? Writing the Memoir That Helped Him Understand Himself Ben Sautter (39:50) So I actually started the book in twenty sixteen before I had the stroke. And I it my intention was to write a bunch of stories about all the crazy things I did, crazy things that happened to me. Just a book of stories is what I was gonna write. And once I got serious about it last September, I sat down, got out what I had, and And once I started I couldn’t stop writing. I wrote this book in ten weeks and it just poured out of me and it’s nothing like I ever would have thought I could write. it has good value. It has value for anyone that reads it. Bill Gasiamis (40:40) So it’s a 10 year project that took ten days to ten weeks or ten days to complete. Ten weeks to Ben Sautter (40:46) Ten weeks. Ten weeks. Bill Gasiamis (40:48) complete. So that’s really cool in that like the idea was already there, germinating. It it took a while. you had to overcome certain things. You had to probably move beyond, you know, certain parts of your your your transformation to get to the stage where the book was possible. it sounds like you put in work with your family, with yourself. How long have you been seeing a counselor? Ben Sautter (41:18) Right after the stroke I started seeing my psychologist and and it’s interesting to me really early on she had me doing work that was for PTSD. And she would give me lessons to bring home. And they were for the for the veterans that suffered from PTSD, which I never knew anything about it. It was kind of a phantom thing for me, because I didn’t know anything. And and I’ll be honest with you here, one night on 60 Minutes I was watching a veteran with his wife and daughter being interviewed on sixty minutes and he had the PTSD and that family was talking about him doing the it saying, doing, thinking, the exact things I was doing with my family. And that really just hit me hard. No wonder I’m doing PTSD work because the stroke is the same thing i i in a sense. And that’s where I learned so much watching that segment that night. I learned about myself, my family. And that’s when I realized that’s when I realized my family suffered the stroke as much as I did. That came to me. Bill Gasiamis (42:51) What’s interesting is I asked you about things that might have happened in your past that may have been foundational kind of things that were responsible for these two personalities of you. You mentioned your dad, your upbringing, some of the stuff that he would get up to and how you were kind of influenced by him. But y I just heard now that you’re a veteran. So did you actually attend did you serve as a veteran? Ben Sautter (43:19) I did. I did a couple of years in the Navy in right when the Vietnam War was getting was ending. In fact I was in in April of seventy-five is when it ended. And I never went overseas. I was shore duty in California. I was at NAS Alameda and and that’s a pretty big piece in my book of of my time in the Navy, which is quite a story. but I I didn’t suffer any any I didn’t go to I didn’t go to war. I did not go to war. I I Bill Gasiamis (43:55) Or no battle no battles or anything like that. And and do you think the PTSD was from something else, perhaps? Ben Sautter (44:04) I think it w just from the stroke. Just from the stroke and I didn’t know it. that’s what I got from that sixty minutes segment is is the cognitive things that I was saying that and didn’t understand what the stroke did to me. I thought I was fine. I went to work back to work a couple months after I had the stroke. I worked for a couple months and I realized I I wasn’t cutting it. Bill Gasiamis (44:36) Whose idea was it to go to counselling after the stroke? Ben Sautter (44:46) I don’t know that I don’t remember, but I would say they probably just assigned me to a psychologist to to to see where I’m at, help me through it. VA Ford Harrison is phenomenal, those people. great staff there. So they just were taking care of me, I think. I don’t remember it. Bill Gasiamis (45:06) Yeah, might have just been standard part of the approach to helping somebody who’s a VA. Ben Sautter (45:14) That would be my my my guess that it was just part of their program. Bill Gasiamis (45:20) And it sounds like you were pretty willing or or were you resistant at the beginning. Do you recall how you felt about being in counseling? Ben Sautter (45:29) Yeah, I I was fine to go there and really really like this psychologist I see and and the other ones. I’ve seen numerous psychologists there and yeah, they I always feel better coming out of there than I do when I walk in. So no doubt. Bill Gasiamis (45:51) Have you expanded on your happy, sad, angry emotions? Ben Sautter (45:55) I’m I’m pretty even now. I don’t get too wild. When I first had the stroke I was very emotional. I was tears in my eyes over almost nothing. it was quite a struggle for Bill Gasiamis (46:13) That’s common. Ben Sautter (46:14) s some years. And and now I I I’ve I’m very well in control of my emotions and to the point that I’m I might be a fairly boring guy. I like to have fun. I laugh a lot. I’m not the wild guy that I was, but so so I I don’t have much anger. I don’t have much sadness. My anger y my sadness used to turn to anger. So I really had happy and angry is really what I had. I I don’t go there anymore. Life is too good for me now. I don’t I don’t have sadness or anger. Bill Gasiamis (46:55) every so often you say a couple of things and it triggers me to ask you the next question again. And it’s kind of my job to probe. And this is not a counseling session, but it’s very fascinating. Was there perhaps some kind of a personality disorder there, like a like a bipolar or something like that? Because you’re describing like happy, angry, or do you know there’s no in between and it’s very bipolar ish. Whereas I know it’s not bipolar. Because in Bipala they’re described as being happy and really, really kind of deep, sad extremes. But you seem to occupy a similar kind of space does that ring a bell? Did anyone ever bring that up, perhaps? Ben Sautter (47:38) No, I’m I’m I’m d just too happy all the time, always not in the good mood that I always used to be, but I lived pretty happy life. I I just didn’t let the rest get me. But when I went off in the weeds, I my anger was would get away from me. Bill Gasiamis (48:01) That’s a great way to describe it because that’s tend tends to be how anger is. Like it just kind of builds up and builds up and then it gets away. And if you do that often enough, it becomes really easy to get to anger. And what people don’t realise is that anger is also and complaining and all those types of things also releases dopamine in the brain. There is a reward that people get for misbehaving Ben Sautter (48:26) Mm. Bill Gasiamis (48:26) and expressing anger. Otherwise you wouldn’t do it. There is the there is also the I I’m trying to achieve something or get something done or I’m trying to intimidate some someone or I’m trying to you know get a child to take action somewhere where they frustrated me or whatever. So there there is a a a th this underlying purpose for anger, but also it’s a rewarding to the brain when you act out in an angry way. Ben Sautter (48:58) I think that’s a really good point. When I was younger, I would break I would look to break something. I would get so mad I just I would break something and then I felt good about it. Okay, I got that broke. Now I’m now I can be happy again. So just exactly what you just said. Interesting. Hmm. Bill Gasiamis (49:19) Yeah. That is interesting. It’s interesting and fascinating. Stroke as a Catalyst for Change This has been one of the most interesting conversations I’ve had because we’ve barely spoken about the stroke and how you experienced it and what it did to you. But it seems like we’ve spoken about it enough in that it was a catalyst to something new, something different. And often my attempt has always been in these interviews is to tell people about the fact You know, we share a story of what life was like before stroke for people. And then we sure share the story of like what happened during the stroke time and then what happened after. And if you’re currently in the stroke moment, it’s really, really hard. You you don’t know where things are headed. There’s a lot of uncertainty, a lot of change, a lot of experiences that you never saw coming, you know, things that are happening. You might be experiencing your body differently, your cognition differently. your hearing, your speech, it all might be different and it’s extremely full on in that moment. And the idea is, well, let’s continue with the conversation and try and move and and paint a picture of what life might be like for somebody, even though they’re going through a really hard time five, six, seven, ten years down the track, you know? And you’re in the 10 year mark and it’s taken you 10 years to get here, write a book, reflect on your past the way that you’ve been reflecting. mend your relationships, become more aware of your behavior, the one that served you, the one that didn’t. And it’s not really a story about stroke, but it’s stroke seems to have been the catalyst for an opportunity for you to look at things a different way and for it to break certain patterns that were embedded that now have been able to be in kind of like fizzled. You know, the edges of them were fizzled away so that something could enter and you know, like throw a spanner in the works and change the way the cogs moved. and it’s just fascinating that stroke can do that. if we didn’t talk about that part of stroke, that good part of stroke, people might only see stroke as only ever being a terrible thing that happened to them, which I also understand if somebody feels that way, because there’s a big spectrum of how people are impacted by stroke. So I don’t wanna take that away from people who are suffering. but you you know, like the shift and the change that you’ve had through a stroke is just night and day, it’s phenomenal. Ben Sautter (52:07) One of the bigger things I think I’ve learned that goes with that is It’s been a few years ago I learned that that guy that I was, that guy’s gone. And I am not gonna be that guy ever again. So I I’m looking at at the guy that I am, who I believe is a better guy than I was anyway. So that’s been a good thing. And I think that comes from my wife and from my psychologist at the VA that it it’s There’s no more who I was, it’s who I am. And and that’s come a long ways because of that, I Bill Gasiamis (52:51) Yeah. Ben Sautter (52:51) believe. Bill Gasiamis (52:52) And who you’re becoming by the sound of things. Ben Sautter (52:55) That too. Yes. Yeah, because I I do that’s a really good point. I do know I will get better. I will be better as time goes on. But you gotta keep you gotta keep working at it. Bill Gasiamis (53:10) Yeah. Being better and getting better, does that mean that the f the the way the leg feels is different or can the the the way the leg feels not necessarily go back to normal and you still are getting better, you still are improving, even though your leg perhaps stays Ben Sautter (53:29) Lake skiing. my pain is way, way, way down to where I don’t my pain is nil. I can go well, I I do a lot of needles, I do a lot of injections, I do a lot for it, but those are getting less. so th I’m hurting less, I’m hiking better, I ride my bike a lot, all those things. are I’m gaining the numbness, the tingle’s gone. That electricity thing like your fingers in a socket, that’s all gone. The s hard stiffness is down in my lower leg and my foot, so my leg’s better. yeah physically I’m getting better, better better. Bill Gasiamis (54:22) Yeah. Where can people go and find the book? Ben Sautter (54:27) Amazon. Amazon. Mr. Hyde and Me. The name of the book. Yeah, I’m Bill Gasiamis (54:32) Yeah. The links will Yeah. Ben Sautter (54:35) this is me. This picture is me on Bill Gasiamis (54:38) Yeah. Ben Sautter (54:39) the corner, on the corner of Wilson and Main Street in downtown Bozeman. Bozeman, Montana. So took a took a lot of thought to get to make that picture and to get that shadow just right. So my shadow guy facing into him head on. And been a lot of been a lot of reward doing this. This I called this therapy on steroids. writing this book was incredibly therapeutic. Bill Gasiamis (55:14) Yeah. I can imagine. Ben, thank you so much for reaching out. Really appreciate your conversation and your honesty and I really wish you well with your recovery ongoing. Ben Sautter (55:26) And thank you. This is one of the better conversations I’ve had about my my situation ever. So Bill, I can’t thank you enough. I appreciate it and I’ll look forward to this all turns out. Bill Gasiamis (55:40) Well, that’s it for another episode of the Recovery After Stroke podcast. If there’s one thing to take from this episode, it’s Ben’s line. That guy that I was, that guy’s gone. I’m not going to be that guy ever again. A stroke took something from Ben, but it also gave him a level of self-awareness and emotional range he says he never had access to before. And it helped him rebuild a marriage he thought he’d lost for good. If you want the full story, Ben’s memoir. Mr. Hyde and me is available on Amazon. You’ll find links in the bio. And if this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who might need to hear it. And if you’re looking for more tools for your own recovery, check out my book, The Unexpected Way That a Stroke Became the Best Thing That Happened. It’s available at recoveryafterstroke.com/book. If this show has helped you or someone you love get through their journey with stroke, you can support the show to help keep it going on patreon.com/recoveryafterstroke. And if you want to work with me directly, my coaching program Momentum offers one-on-one support and accountability for stroke survivors who feel stuck. More at recoveryafterstroke.com/momentum. Thanks for listening and I’ll see you in the next episode. The post Jekyll, Hyde, and the Stroke That Changed Everything: Ben Sautter’s Story appeared first on Recovery After Stroke.

Don’t miss the AI partnership revolution Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this episode, Vince Menzione sits down with Amit Sinha from WorkSpan and Marc Monday from ServiceNow to dissect the rapid evolution of AI-native partnerships and the shifting dynamics of the channel ecosystem. They explore how the hyperscaler co-sell model has transformed into a complex strategy of asymmetrical collaboration that demands unprecedented speed, simplicity, and scale from publishers. By integrating AI agents to orchestrate workflows, manage high-risk renewals, and automate low-dollar deals, companies can activate their sellers and drive explosive, exponential growth in their partner programs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP4cFBcCI9Q Key Takeaways The partner channel is no longer just a piece of the strategy; it is the entire strategy for winning in 2026. Modern co-selling is an asymmetrical collaboration where publishers must often do more than fifty percent of the heavy lifting. Implementing AI agents within partnerships can lead to massive revenue impacts, such as a 24% higher lift on renewals for companies like Boomi. True scaling requires moving beyond traditional time-and-materials consulting toward outcome-based frameworks for customers. Activating sellers through continuous AI-driven account orchestration is the ultimate key to unlocking exponential ecosystem growth. The market is moving faster than ever, necessitating that partner enablement and roadmaps shift to agile, sprint-based cycles rather than long-term rigid plans. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags AI native, ecosystem shifting, hyperscalers, Work Span, ServiceNow, lifecycle incentives, cloud native, consumption led, DocuSign, Gong, Boomi, workflow orchestration, asymmetrical collaboration, CRM integration, marketplace private offers, high propensity, seller activation, agentic solution, outcome based consulting, LLM control tower. Transcript Amit Sinha and Marc Monday Audio Episode [00:00:00] Marc Monday: We have to be soup drop dead simple and we’re gonna talk about that nice. In this world. It has to be simple. Even though under the covers it’s very complicated, [00:00:10] Vince Menzione: you can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us. The way Hyperscalers are partnering, how AI is remaking the channel and what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:21] Vince Menzione: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. I’m Vince Menzi, own your host. And each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology, partnerships and outcomes. The voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the strategy. [00:00:43] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because being in the room [00:00:46] Marc Monday: changes everything. Let’s start. [00:00:52] Vince Menzione: And, uh, two incredible friends up on, uh, up on stage. But I think I’m just gonna have my, one of my first friends come up. Amit Sinha from Work Span, a great, great friend and supporter. We’ve been together since the beginning, since the very first ultimate partner in Dallas when we commandeered Microsoft facility. [00:01:12] Amit Sinha: Yeah, [00:01:12] Vince Menzione: you have a little bit that you’re gonna share first and then we’re all gonna come join you. [00:01:16] Amit Sinha: Absolutely. And [00:01:17] Vince Menzione: then we’re gonna have my other great friend, mark Monday on us on stage with us as well. So yeah, [00:01:21] Amit Sinha: what a privilege. Uh, what a privilege. Vince, you do an amazing job as a community and, uh, incredible. [00:01:27] Amit Sinha: Shout out to Alexandra. Uh, we work together at Cisco talking about lifecycle incentives across the whole lifecycle. So amazing work done there as well. So. Very quickly, I’m gonna talk to you about AI native partnerships. A quick motivation. That’s me. Of course, we are using Nano banana to cover that. [00:01:45] Amit Sinha: That’s me looking up a Yellow Pages. I will date myself. That’s, uh, McDonald’s coming to India and me looking up, uh, the nearest McDonald’s, right? And this is me now booking Uber Eats Ma and I had this real experience yesterday night. I flew in from Sapphire in Orlando and I was hungry. Ma said, let’s, let’s get Uber Eats. [00:02:06] Amit Sinha: And we had a great. De this is digital native, right? We had no idea the world would transform this way, but completely new ways of working. Okay. Um, and, uh, another great experience that Mike, my co-founder and CEO seated the back half, I spent a decade at SAP, uh, doing hana, which was a database product, but it was on premise. [00:02:28] Amit Sinha: We had these racks and our whole gig was actually take an amazing HANA database with this server mounted, deployed. Wow. The CIO and the CFO, that this is the most amazing thing. And they would not say, Hey, you can’t take that box away, because it’s such a good insight that I get for my, uh, analytics product, right. [00:02:47] Amit Sinha: So that’s the old way. And look at us. We are all cloud native, right? Cloud has gotten to a place where it’s not just about infrastructure, running things and meters and stuff like that in a scalable way. It is a also source of innovation. New capability, new business model, consumption led business model. [00:03:07] Amit Sinha: Whole new way of working, right? So this comes to the new world now, what does AI need to look like? We heard all the amazing speakers talk about, uh, you know, the promise of ai, right? But you have a choice. Uh, you have a choice to do it yourself or, uh, especially as partnership professionals, right? When you do it yourself, you have this chat bots and stuff that you get from all the major. [00:03:33] Amit Sinha: You can always get more productive, but that’s about half an hour saved. The bar is too low there. So this is an amazing piece of, uh, research put together by all the experts. Vince, thank you for doing that. Uh, we had Jay McBain lend his voice as well. We had Rob Moyer with all his, uh, decades of, you know, insight and wisdom as to what would the future with AI look like, uh, encapsulate in that. [00:03:57] Amit Sinha: So go ahead, take a picture. Uh, this is not gated. Um, beautiful piece of content has also new insights from leading firms. AI native, I would dare say frontier firms who are like DocuSign or Gong who are really pioneering AI native partnerships, Boomi, and how they’re powering their renewal business case across AWS Google and Microsoft Marketplaces. [00:04:21] Amit Sinha: Uh, this really talks about that. And here, uh, this is the thought leadership that we bring to the table. And again, this is not a vendor pitch. This is, you know, as you elevate from the low bar about making yourself productive where you’re cut and paste, uh, into a chatbot, your context so that you can get a better co-sell email out there. [00:04:40] Amit Sinha: You DIY, this thing. But if you think of working with works span, these are three things that you should think about. First is imagine instead of cut and paste, you have your entire partnership context right there. And because the context is there, the right better together story, the right case study, the right partnership documents, the right opportunity and accounts that intelligence not only informs you, but also your team in a, in an extended way, and even your partnership in an extended way that’s fully automated. [00:05:13] Amit Sinha: Second is it’s not just informing you or sensing you, it is also acting. And I think this is where there are, you know, death by a thousand cuts if happening in the world where all this time gets taken up, right? But if you have an agent that scales in ly, whether you are big mature partnership, you got lots and lots of accounts and opportunities to cover, the agent can do that. [00:05:36] Amit Sinha: Or if you’re a new partnership, how do you get to market quickly? With the right assets, the right get to market content. This can work both ways. And lastly, how do you secure this partnership is done in trust. So you should have an agent for every partnership, uniquely your partnership with Microsoft, your partnership with ServiceNow, your partnership with uh, AWS and Google. [00:05:59] Amit Sinha: They all get a different agent. And the point here is these agents can work in a circle of trust and the boundary that gets established. So via work span, come talk to us outside. And with that, Vince, let’s uh, bring Mark along. Come on, mark. [00:06:17] Vince Menzione: Alright. I am gonna have you and then Mark, uh, yeah. Want mark in the middle? [00:06:22] Marc Monday: Oh, uh oh. [00:06:24] Vince Menzione: So, uh, let me move over so I get back to the picture slide. Look at those two handsome gentlemen up there. Uh, thrilled to have you Mark as well. Uh, for those of you who don’t, because you’ve been, you were just in Boca with us this Yeah. This winter. [00:06:39] Marc Monday: That’s right. [00:06:40] Vince Menzione: And, uh, tell us about your new role at ServiceNow. [00:06:43] Marc Monday: Well, I have the absolute privilege of leading the partner channel at ServiceNow. Yeah. Um, it’s comprised of our partner programs, our program gives and gets, and importantly our five routes to market, our consulting and implementation partners, our resell partners, our service provider partners, our hyperscaler partners, and importantly our build partners. [00:07:03] Vince Menzione: I love it. I love it. So let’s talk about the partner programs and why they’re so critical to ServiceNow right now. [00:07:08] Marc Monday: I think in this world scale is everything, and so this profession has always been a bit mercurial and a little bit of a black box for organizations. What does the partner team do? What does that look like? [00:07:21] Marc Monday: But what we have to continue to do is explain, this is your force multiplier. Working together in collaboration helps you scale beyond your individual numbers. And that’s really the thing that we’re focused on is how do we drive that? And I have three big things that we have to focus on is we have to be sup, drop dead simple, and we’re gonna talk about that [00:07:40] Vince Menzione: nice. [00:07:41] Marc Monday: In this world, it has to be simple. Even though under the covers it’s very complicated. We have to be incredibly fast. Agility is the key in this very moment. And then as I said, with that becomes the scaling element and the force multiplier. [00:07:56] Vince Menzione: And you have spent many, you, well, we both worked at Microsoft together. [00:07:59] Vince Menzione: It’s [00:07:59] Marc Monday: true. [00:07:59] Amit Sinha: Way back way. [00:08:00] Marc Monday: I feel like you’re punking me having me right before lunch. Like I remember back at Microsoft, you did something to me, so I’m gonna have you right before lunch. [00:08:07] Vince Menzione: It’s, no, it’s really terrific to have you. But, uh, so yeah, you, you mentioned about like the change and the specificity and the clarity around it. [00:08:16] Vince Menzione: Amme you have, uh, broken the model, so to speak, working with ServiceNow, right? Yeah. You went from being a traditional. I’ll call it co-sell Engine Marketplace Company. Uh, tell us, tell us, tell us about the innovation that’s going on in the room. We’re working with ServiceNow. [00:08:31] Amit Sinha: Absolutely. Uh, when you think of co-sell, the first mine goes to just co-sell with the hyperscalers, right? [00:08:36] Amit Sinha: Because they kind of pioneered and started this in a unique way. We, of course, got started with Microsoft eight years ago, doing not just co-sell and P two P, but since then AW S and Google right. You would be surprised to know that we do about 10% of AWS sales through work, expand co-sale. Right. Just [00:08:53] Vince Menzione: wow. [00:08:53] Amit Sinha: But that’s where we started. Where we ended up is really looking at all partner types and all motion types and. Mark and I disagreed and he, he really pushed me hard on this. Yeah, and the point here is if you look at your build partner motion, it’s also a co-sell. You build, then you co-sell and go to market, [00:09:11] Vince Menzione: right? [00:09:12] Amit Sinha: If you think about your services partners, right? You have a product. They have amazing last mile services and digital transformation. Uh, capabilities, and again, there’s a coastal motion there. So where we world works span eventually was not just coastal with hyperscalers, but across all partner types. And Mark, thank you for pushing us on that. [00:09:31] Amit Sinha: Yeah. And being a pioneering partner on works span with us. I really appreciate [00:09:34] Marc Monday: this. It was a fun rumble we got there. [00:09:37] Vince Menzione: So why does it matter now for ServiceNow specific? [00:09:40] Marc Monday: Yeah. I mean the reality is, um, I’m gonna say something provocative. We’re, we’re all friends. Yeah. Um, Cosell iss probably a misnomer. It’s not a 50 50 coequal relationship. [00:09:53] Vince Menzione: Yeah. You don’t walk in together holding it back. [00:09:55] Marc Monday: It’s asymmetrical collaboration. I love that. And I want to put the stake in the ground. The co-sell motions that have been created by the hyperscalers are wonderful. The pipe has been opened, but the reality is the publisher. Has to do a lot of the work and the systems are there, but the key is not just connecting into partner center as an example. [00:10:16] Marc Monday: Yeah. But building your own infrastructure and processes. That’s where the magic comes together, and that’s where we really drive scale. And so if we approach co-selling is asymmetrical collaboration and recognizing that you probably need to do more than 50%. When a, when a a team collaborates on co-authoring a book, it’s not like someone’s writing every other word, and it’s exactly 50%. [00:10:40] Marc Monday: Or if a pilot, a co-pilot is with a pilot on a plane, they’re not doing exactly 50% of the work’s, [00:10:46] Vince Menzione: right? No. [00:10:47] Marc Monday: This asymmetric approach requires that we do a lot of the work on our side. Yeah. And that’s where AM and team have really helped us a ton. [00:10:55] Vince Menzione: And ServiceNow was known as a ticketing solution back in the day. [00:10:58] Vince Menzione: Right. And you’ve kind of, I mean, it it, it started that way. [00:11:01] Marc Monday: We have a wonderful heritage 20 plus years Yeah. Of workflow orchestration. Yeah. And in a diggen world, what are we really doing? We’re orchestrating workflows, and importantly, we need to govern those workflows and we need to sequence them in a meaningful way. [00:11:17] Marc Monday: And so our vision of a control tower across any hyperscaler, any LLM, any workflow, any system of record, any time, that’s the key to everything. [00:11:27] Vince Menzione: And so now you’ve taken the work span approach and driven it across what I see, like taking, taking this. This stack, we’ll call it. Yeah, the tower. Yeah. And then applying all of the methodologies and best practices on what we’ve called co-selling and ecosystem orchestration, essentially is what it really is. [00:11:46] Amit Sinha: Absolutely. [00:11:46] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:11:47] Amit Sinha: Yeah. And we are thrilled to partner with ServiceNow on this. So ServiceNow, as you guys know, uh, release their CRM product. So we got in at the ground floor on that opportunity and with the now assist agents as well. What we’ve really built is an integration between work span as a platform. [00:12:03] Amit Sinha: And ServiceNow, CRM as well. So if anybody is using that all the way from ServiceNow opportunities to Marketplace private offers, you can a genetically do that. Of course you can do it on Salesforce Hub, spot and Dynamics, but now ServiceNow is an additional option on that. I wanna really double click though, mark, on your point around asymmetry around this, when we say six to seven partners are gonna surround the end customer, right? [00:12:27] Amit Sinha: Yes. They will come at different points in time. Yes. Right? And they will also have different roles to play. So just as you think of a team, right? A soccer team for that matter, or a football team, pick your analogy right. Not everybody’s equal. Right? There’s always a qb. There’s always somebody who holds the prime on the deal. [00:12:45] Amit Sinha: There’s always a role to play. [00:12:46] Marc Monday: Yeah, [00:12:47] Amit Sinha: and I think what’s beautiful about our partnership here is when you look at it applied to services partners, it’s about building billion dollar businesses around ServiceNow, using their competency, but knowing the kind of joint accounts you need to go pursue in order to. [00:13:03] Amit Sinha: You know, burn down their inventory or, or co-sell alongside. If it’s the build partner, it’s about attacking an industry vertical or a joint account there. Right? So knowing very intelligently who to partner with and when to bring them on is the AI orchestration that is key in this partnership [00:13:19] Vince Menzione: here. Yeah. [00:13:19] Vince Menzione: So important. ’cause you, it isn’t single threaded this, this asymmetrical approach. [00:13:24] Amit Sinha: Right. So [00:13:25] Vince Menzione: incredible. You just ha you just finished your big event. I was hoping I did spare Share with us a little bit of your perspective on what’s been changing and how your ecosystem is evolving. Uh, I had Jen Odes in the studio. [00:13:38] Vince Menzione: That’s right. As you know, back in the fall. Fall, go back and watch it again. Yeah, it’s available. Great. Great podcast interview. Yeah. And you’ve been on stage at our events before and we’ve had that as a podcast, but take us how things are changing from the partner type perspective. We have MSPs in the room. [00:13:53] Vince Menzione: I know MSPs are, I know again, hands on the steering wheel. So important, right? Yeah. This technology is so complex. How are you thinking about ecosystem in your role? [00:14:03] Marc Monday: Yeah, I said earlier it’s about simplicity, speed, and scale. Yeah. Last week we had our big customer event knowledge, and on the first day we had our partner event. [00:14:13] Marc Monday: I think the biggest thing that’s happening right now is the pace of change is a bit overwhelming at times. And keeping pace with that is super critical. So what we’ve tried to do and what we announced last week was a lot of investment in giving our channel partners the exact same tools that we use in our business, right? [00:14:32] Marc Monday: So we were really focused on. Um, delivering business value. And so we took our, the solution that we use or the tools that we use for, um, delivering, uh, business value through our partners. It’s an assessment tool. Um, we’ve syndicated that to our partners. We’ve made that available. We also put a little bit of a stake in the ground around what do customers expect right now? [00:14:56] Marc Monday: Um, the time and materials business is gonna be under a tremendous amount of pressure. Some studies are predicting that it could be. Compressed by as much as 30% customers are looking for outcome based. Yeah. Um, they may stop on that journey and, and have something that’s fixed fee. But the reality is everyone is expecting value from the, the technology that they buy, and particularly from an agent perspective. [00:15:21] Marc Monday: We really leaned in on that and published what I think is a pretty good framework mm-hmm. For, um, outcome-based consulting. And we had a couple partners co-author that with us, which was really wonderful. Nice. Um, and it was a nice piece of co-creation and I think I’m seeing more and more of that where we’re co-creating with our partners in ways that we’ve never done before. [00:15:41] Marc Monday: And then I think importantly, security and reliability, um, and managing risk increasingly will be important. In an agentic world, we call it a control tower. We made two fairly big acquisitions in the last several months in terms of both the front door and the back door in terms of securing with the calls that are going into that agent or from that agent. [00:16:04] Marc Monday: To your various data sources. And so for us trying to bring that all together with our strong history of workload flow, orchestration, and then importantly, governance, security, and risk, uh, in the environment today, when you have the potential for hundreds of thousands or even millions of agents touching your core systems of record, [00:16:24] Vince Menzione: how are you thinking about both tiering your partners and also enabling your partners? [00:16:30] Marc Monday: Yeah, I think this is also an, an an area where I’d love to benchmark with y’all, um, because, you know, historically most of us built a fairly robust learning plan for our partners. You’d have a certification and then you would have a competency, and then you, maybe you’d have a wrapper around that competency. [00:16:48] Marc Monday: And it would take a long time, maybe 12 or 18 months to get to that highest level of certification. And it was incredibly robust and that’s wonderful. But when the roadmap is moving so fast that we’re releasing weekly, monthly, and every 90 days, does that type of training still hold water? So I’m proposing that we have both a volume view of how many trained individuals can we get as quickly as possible, and then value. [00:17:16] Marc Monday: And so we don’t want to lose this rich history, what I would describe as the rear view mirror, how we got here, but we also need to approach the windscreen, the windshield, where are we going and what is that opportunity? Yeah, so we have to go a little bit faster when it comes to enablement, [00:17:32] Vince Menzione: so. You, you were in a partnership, you, you call it a built on partnership. [00:17:37] Vince Menzione: Is that, is that the approach that [00:17:38] Amit Sinha: Yeah. ServiceNow has an ISV program called The Built On Partnership. Built On [00:17:41] Vince Menzione: Partnership, yeah. [00:17:42] Amit Sinha: Uh, so we sign onto that program, great accelerators to build lot of coaching and help to build on the ServiceNow platform. It’s not just the CRM integration, where it’s the opportunities and orders. [00:17:54] Amit Sinha: And by the way, this is the best platform or order management out there. So if you think of, uh, of your, if you are a MSP or consulting partner, building orders for your customers, now you want them to land on the marketplace, right? You wanna build that highway. Think of work span, right? So that’s where we came in and we said that if we look at the large number of channel partners, MSPs, who need to do that and are using ServiceNow as a platform to do it, can they genetically do it right from the now CRM? [00:18:24] Amit Sinha: Yeah, so that’s why we came in. The three big use cases we saw, number one was renewals. You talked about Alexandra doing it. Renewals is so [00:18:31] Vince Menzione: important. Yeah. [00:18:32] Amit Sinha: Oh my goodness. If you think about the renewals playbook [00:18:34] Vince Menzione: was so huge, [00:18:35] Amit Sinha: six months, nine, you know, uh, 90 days out, you wanna build that playbook. Mm-hmm. In an agent way when you reach out. [00:18:43] Amit Sinha: And by the way, you heard, uh, die Talk about 462 billion of uncontested Cloud commits out there. Yep. You want your high risk renewals to go against the high propensity to buy accounts. Right. So imagine that matchmaking, if you were to do it humanly, it’ll take you days. If you had an agent to do it like the now assist agent, it can just be done like that. [00:19:06] Amit Sinha: So that was the first use case we went after. Nice. The second one was the low dollar automation. We all have businesses that we land, right? Sub 50 K deals, so we have inside sales teams calling on those customers all day long. So now imagine a Gentech solution where you take all those low dollar deals and again, tie to the marketplace. [00:19:26] Amit Sinha: How can you have express private offers, right, from your opportunities? So those were the two use cases that we went after first and boy, uh, we got some amazing results, [00:19:36] Vince Menzione: I bet [00:19:36] Amit Sinha: for one of these companies, Boomi, we showed that 24% higher lift on renewals. That’s like hundreds of millions in impact just in one year alone. [00:19:46] Vince Menzione: And using AI internally as obviously you’re an AI company. Yeah. How are you thinking about how’s the impact of AI helping the partner function within ServiceNow? [00:19:54] Marc Monday: I, I think there’s this really wonderful opportunity right now where in the short term, we’re taking busy work out of the partner management profession. [00:20:05] Marc Monday: Um, partner managers historically have spent a lot of time chasing data and chasing information and really acting as an ombudsman for the partner within the organization. That work is very quickly. Getting identified. That’s phase one. The thing I’m actually a little more excited about is when it can expand the horizon to have different types of conversations, expanding the partnerships, expanding the multi-partner oppor opportunities. [00:20:29] Marc Monday: That, for me is the next phase, but we, I believe we are the most progressive when it comes to using AI on ourselves and really trying to take the profession to the next level. [00:20:40] Vince Menzione: Nice. Well, I was gonna, I was gonna, I want to go back to the platform again. ’cause you, you’re, you’re starting, you, you mentioned renewals, you’re mentioning some of the success. [00:20:50] Vince Menzione: What else can you point to on the success side, [00:20:52] Amit Sinha: there’s some, uh, amazing research that Sam here has done, uh, with all the data that Wepan has. So we looked at close to a million opportunities and, uh, looked at all the companies doing well. And we actually tabulated how many sellers are engaged on co-sell, not the partnering team, but how many end sellers. [00:21:11] Amit Sinha: This shows the extent of the transformation that the company has gone through, and what we found was amazing. If more than 50% of your sellers have engaged on 10 or more deals, your ecosystem is exponential. It doesn’t need the kind of the doctoring or the prod or the push to kind of say, Hey, use partners. [00:21:31] Amit Sinha: The sellers get it themselves, right? So we, we did this analysis and found like, wow, how can we then get sellers to activate? And the bottleneck that we found was. That there are not enough partner managers to assist every seller in the world. I think that seller activation is the unlock that AI can do. [00:21:50] Amit Sinha: Imagine if you have a partner agent sitting on every account and every opportunity 24 by seven, right? As the world changes, as the world evolves, as the solutions come in. As you know, market events happen. These agents are listening, positioning the right. One of those six partners, or all six partners for that matter, in front of people. [00:22:10] Amit Sinha: So I feel like that that big unlock is seller activation. Yeah. So if all partner managers do with ai, next is one. Of course, get yourself skilled up and yourself productive. But next, direct it to your own internal sales teams and get them activated on your partnerships because that’s where you will move the revenue lever the fastest, in my opinion. [00:22:30] Vince Menzione: Fantastic. What advice do you have for whether they be ISV partners or other partners in the room? ’cause we have partners of all types here. Yeah. What would you have, what would you say to them that need to do differently or better? [00:22:43] Marc Monday: Yeah. [00:22:44] Vince Menzione: Starting today, [00:22:46] Marc Monday: I, I don’t wanna be a broken record, but I would just say go faster. [00:22:48] Marc Monday: However fast you think you’re going, it’s not enough. Yeah. Um, the reality is I think Bill McDermott says like, the market’s never been this fast before and it will never be this slow again. Oh. The reality is this is the pace we run at, and the only way we can run at this pace is if we have the agents doing much of the work for us. [00:23:09] Marc Monday: So I would say go faster. The second thing I would say is automating a bad process is a bad process. So really go and interrogate the workflow that you’re actually thinking about identifying. I’ve seen too many instances from partners and partnerships where you’re taking a bad process and you’re trying to build automation. [00:23:29] Marc Monday: Go back and deconstruct it or start fresh blank piece of paper. Um, again, to my metaphor of the rear view mirror and the wind screen, like it’s, we should honor the past. We’ve done a wonderful job in the last 30 years of building all of this stuff. It’s just not built for this speed. So we need to really stay focused on what’s in front of us. [00:23:49] Vince Menzione: We talked a little bit earlier in one of the other sessions about the playbook and the three year plan, and then maybe moving to sprints. That’s right. How are you, how are you thinking? Are you thinking along the same lines? A [00:23:59] Marc Monday: hundred percent. Uh, we need to move at the pace. Sorry, I’m, we need to move at the pace that the roadmap is moving. [00:24:05] Marc Monday: So if we’re doing weekly, monthly, and quarter releases, we don’t wanna whipsaw the channel. We have to be careful of that. But the reality is, if we’re pivoting our product strategies or release strategies on a quarterly basis. We have to have that same level of agility. That’s where the people who’ve grown up in this profession taking really complicated stuff and making it simple is so critical. [00:24:26] Vince Menzione: Ami, you touched on AI’s role in the partner function. But let’s expand on that. What, what’s it gonna look like in two years? If AI becomes, will it replace the partner function? What, what do you see happening? [00:24:38] Amit Sinha: Absolutely not. I think, uh, we are seeing this evolution and, and you can see the parallels in the engineering organization. [00:24:44] Amit Sinha: When Claude Cursor came along, you saw engineering completely transformed as to how products are now built. How they are, how product managers write PRDs, how engineers actually code this, you know, code the scaffolding all the way to the user experience, how it’s tested. Everything has fundamentally changed. [00:25:01] Amit Sinha: So if you went and asked the engineering leader, how will your role change? Right? Imagine answering that question today, right? It’s fundamentally different. I feel like it’s coming to every function. Whether you want it or not, it’s coming to every function. And the partnership leader will look like the partnership operator that Rob talks about. [00:25:19] Amit Sinha: Yes. It’ll be about orchestrating real time relationships at the account level, at the opportunity level, and being a hands-on person. Uh, i, I would say even at the leadership level or down to partner managers, how can you cover the breadth of accounts and opportunities that’s out there to, for you to prosecute? [00:25:36] Amit Sinha: It’ll not look like I’m managing a partnership. It’ll not look like, Hey, I have to offer an MDF. It’ll not look like, Hey, let’s do A QBR, you know, and get all the teams engaged because that’ll be too late essentially. So this operator perspective is what’s gonna change just as it changed in engineering, it’s gonna happen in partnerships [00:25:56] Vince Menzione: perspective as well. [00:25:57] Marc Monday: Big plus one on what Rob’s talking about. I, I, I’m a big fan of that and I love this idea of using what’s happening in the developer world as an analog for where we’re going. Yeah. Um, I met a product manager last week and she was saying that she was producing 30 or 40 product requirement docs every week. [00:26:14] Marc Monday: Um, that’s remarkable output and she can only do that because of the way she’s leveraging ai. The same will be true for a partner manager, a 10 x, a 20 x, a 30 x on each individual once we get to that stage, and it will happen very quickly. [00:26:29] Amit Sinha: Yeah. Imagine putting a hundred joint account plans together in a day. [00:26:33] Amit Sinha: Yep. [00:26:33] Vince Menzione: Right. Incredible. [00:26:34] Amit Sinha: Imagine putting like five connections on an opportunity just surrounding your deal right now. Right. Doing that. [00:26:41] Vince Menzione: I couldn’t even, I, I couldn’t even imagine. I know you couldn’t even imagine when we were back in the days we were running PAMs and Yeah, totally. Those resources, what they had to do and what’s all totally automated today. [00:26:52] Marc Monday: It. It’s true, it’s true. I was, um, I was bemoaning this, I’ve been on the road a lot lately and I was like telling my wife, like, I long for the days where you have one meeting and you go, you know, you go to New York and you do a two hour QBR and you go to a nice dinner and then maybe you walk around Central Park. [00:27:06] Marc Monday: The reality is you’re doing a hundred of those every single day. It’s a different era. That’s where we need to get the tools to work for people. [00:27:15] Amit Sinha: Mark, I love your analogy around the rear view mirror versus the windshield. Mm-hmm. You have to see through the windshield. [00:27:20] Marc Monday: We do. We do. It’s amazing. Don’t be afraid. [00:27:23] Marc Monday: I, I mean, I would just say do not be afraid. Be excited. We in this room, get to lead the path. Yeah. It is an absolute privilege. [00:27:32] Vince Menzione: So insightful, gentlemen, you’ve been incredible to be on stage with today. Uh, I we have a le a little less than a minute. I was hoping maybe if there was like one question we could take. [00:27:42] Vince Menzione: I got John with a mic and then it’s lunchtime after this, so [00:27:48] Marc Monday: ask on because he can be more pithy. [00:27:50] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:27:55] Vince Menzione: Well, you’re both are gonna be around here. I hope [00:27:57] Marc Monday: we will be here. [00:27:58] Vince Menzione: Mark didn’t have you got to sleep in your own bed last night? [00:28:00] Marc Monday: Uh, yeah. It was a long day, but yes. I thank you for, it was very late. Thank you so much. Let’s put this on the record. Marks down. We’re having the event in Bellevue. That was great. [00:28:09] Marc Monday: We’re gonna [00:28:09] Amit Sinha: bring it back. We’re gonna bring it back to Bellevue. [00:28:12] Marc Monday: Seven mile commute is the best trip that I’ve had in many, many weeks. [00:28:17] Amit Sinha: Thank you. Well, thank you, gentlemen. It [00:28:19] was [00:28:19] Marc Monday: incredible. [00:28:20] Vince Menzione: Thanks for listening to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. If today’s conversation resonated, share it with a partner leader in your network. [00:28:28] Vince Menzione: Subscribe where you listen, and head over to the Ultimate partner.com for show notes related content and the resources for this episode. And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live event in Reston, Virginia, [00:28:44] Marc Monday: October [00:28:45] Vince Menzione: 26th through October 28th. Until next time. Keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything.

Another Backroads & Bonfires episode, another tik tok restoration video series. Adam talks about his new found love for boot restoration videos, which leads the fellas to thinking about what in their own lives they'll always restore and not scrap. We wonder how our Dads just know how to fix everything. America is getting way too corporate. Burk introduces us to the dead internet theory. We list our Mount Rushmore of Asian dishes! In the MEAT, Mm!, the boys do one of our most legendary drafts yet, fictional dogs! The list is LENGTHY. We close the show with 90s fast food counter games. Hut Hut! Love y'all. 

Some days are bad and some days are good. Then there are days that change your life forever. Click here for the MM donation link: https://checkout.square.site/merchant/D135FAXVEN2D7/checkout/Y67QJUO2WKX5JDCDGENK7UPU?src=sheet

In their 500th episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb celebrate a decade of The Reformed Brotherhood by diving into one of Scripture's most overlooked parables — the Parable of the Growing Seed in Mark 4:26–29. Exclusive to Mark's Gospel, this four-verse passage packs a theological punch that is, as Tony and Jesse argue, unmistakably Reformed in its emphasis. The man scatters seed, goes about his life, and the earth produces — by itself — without his understanding or intervention. From this, the hosts draw out rich implications for evangelism, sanctification, ecclesiology, and eschatology. They argue that the kingdom of God advances by divine power alone, hidden from human sight, moving toward a certain consummation. The episode pairs deep theological reflection with the hosts' characteristic warmth, humor, and 10 years' worth of shared history. Key Takeaways Monergism is embedded in the parable itself. The growth of the seed is entirely God's doing. The man scatters and rests; the earth produces by itself — a picture of divine sovereignty that requires no human management or comprehension. The evangelist's only obligation is to scatter. This parable relieves believers of the anxious burden of producing spiritual fruit. Faithfulness in proclamation is the call; growth belongs to God. Sanctification is gradual, hidden, and God's work. The progression — blade, ear, full grain — mirrors the believer's sanctification, which proceeds by degrees imperceptible to the individual yet certain in God's design. The Kingdom of God is not dependent on any individual. Whether it's a ministry leader, a financial contributor, or a worship musician, no single human agent is load-bearing for the advance of God's kingdom. Primary and secondary causation work together without contradiction. God uses means — the farmer still sows, the earth still functions — but the means are instrumental, not efficient causes. God's providence encompasses and exceeds them. The harvest belongs to God, not the evangelist. Just as the man did not direct the growth, he is not the agent ultimately putting in the sickle. The consummation of the kingdom occurs in God's time and by God's initiative. This parable resists reduction. It cannot be flattened into a simple evangelism lesson or a single eschatological statement. It holds together personal sanctification, corporate ecclesiology, and cosmic eschatology within four verses. Key Concepts The Earth Produces By Itself: Monergism in the Parable The theological center of this parable is the Greek word automate — the earth produces "by itself," without external compulsion or human assistance. Tony and Jesse argue this is not incidental language but the thesis of the entire passage. The farmer is genuinely active — he scatters the seed — but his agency recedes almost immediately from view. He doesn't monitor the soil, apply nutrients, or trace the growth. He simply lives his life. This picture coheres precisely with the Reformed doctrine of monergism: that in regeneration and kingdom growth alike, the decisive cause lies entirely outside human capacity. As Jesse puts it, the mechanism of growth "belongs to God alone." The farmer's ignorance is not a failure — it is the point. We are not meant to understand the how; we are meant to trust the Who. Scatter, Then Rest: A Theology of Evangelism Without Anxiety One of the episode's most practically rich applications concerns the posture believers are called to adopt in evangelism. Tony observes that this parable is rarely preached as an encouragement to evangelists, yet that is precisely what it is. The sower's only active verb is scattering. After that, he sleeps and rises — the rhythms of ordinary life — while God does the work that no human strategy, method, or persistence can accomplish. This directly addresses what Tony calls the "anxiety around trying to ensure some sort of production." The Reformed vision of evangelism is not passive indifference but liberated faithfulness: scatter the seed of the gospel without bearing the impossible weight of manufactured outcomes. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:6–7, "Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth." Blade, Then Ear, Then Grain: The Patience of Providence The threefold progression Jesus describes — blade, then ear, then full grain — is not decorative agricultural detail. It is a theological statement about the character of God's work in the world and in the soul. Growth is gradual, ordered, and unhurried. Jesse draws the direct application to sanctification: the believer cannot fully trace the work of grace in his own heart, yet it is real and it is God's doing. This ought to produce, as Jesse summarizes, "patient confidence rather than human striving or anxiety." The church, too, matures through stages. Neither impatience with slowness nor despair at imperceptibility is warranted — both misread the nature of divine providence. God is not behind schedule. He is, as always, working through means, in His time, toward a consummation He has already appointed. Memorable Quotes The earth produces by itself — we might even say the kingdom of God produces by itself. It's not dependent on anything except God's sovereign will and his sovereignty to execute all that he desires. - Tony Arsenal The mechanism of growth is strangely hidden from the human agent, and it belongs to God alone. - Jesse Schwamb The kingdom of God advances by God's own hidden power toward a certain appointed consummation — and this ought to produce patient confidence rather than human striving or anxiety. - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to the 10th Pentacost episode of the [00:01:00] Reformed Brotherhood. It's number 500. I'm Jesse Tony Arsenal: and I'm Tony, and this is the podcast that's been going for 10 years. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. A happy 500th episode to you.  Tony Arsenal: I know, man. It's kinda crazy. It's kinda crazy, and we're not gonna do anything special 'cause we don't do that, but it is crazy that this is the 500th episode. That's a lot of podcasting.  Jesse Schwamb: It's absolutely wild.  Podcast Memories And Mishaps Jesse Schwamb: And as with any milestone, as I was thinking about this one occurring, it did draw my mind to all the crazy things that have happened on this podcast, some known, some unknown. Of course, there is the very infamous time that I spilled a whole bottle of kombucha on the desk while we were recording, but everybody knows about that. But I was, I was also thinking about the, the lesser-known ones, like the time you and I sat in the downstairs church, like so close to each other on the same side of the table- Yeah ... to record a episode, or the time [00:02:00] that a tow truck showed up while we were recording and I had to go run out and direct the tow truck 'cause I'd called it for the car. Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: And you paused the episode so that we could go do that, or the time that we had our favorite Lutherans on the podcast in what I think was, like, the hottest environment, and I just remember the sweat trickling down Chad Bird's beard. Like, like, like air being- Like the oil gloss ... mixed with oil. Yeah. It was so hot. So those are the ones that come to my mind. I don't know if there are any ones that come to you. We- we've had some great episodes, and by the way, they all live out for free in the world on reformedbrotherhood.com. So don't take our word for it. You can go all the way back to the beginning if you really want to, and you can hear this incredible journey that God has had us on these some 10 years. So I'm curious, like, do any episodes, topics, conversations, weird things come to your mind after all this time?  Tony Arsenal: Uh, the one I remember is when we recorded with Dad and we were waiting for the snow, the [00:03:00]snowplow- ... and we had to, like, wrap the episode up real quick because the snowplow was there and we had to go move cars. That's right. So there's been a fair amount of episodes where it's like something has interrupted us and we need to just get it over with real quick. That's right. Um, hopefully the listener doesn't hear that too much.  Patreon Support Check In Tony Arsenal: The other thing I was thinking about, you know, just as we're kinda thinking about the back catalog, we're not great at this. Uh, we tend to do our, what, what's they call the call to action. The experts call it the call to action. We do it at the very end of our podcast episodes, which is the worst place to do it. Uh, but we're gonna try to land it in the beginning here. So we, we've been supported by a number of, of people, uh, for basically the entire podcast. I don't remember exactly how early on it was that we started doing Patreon, but it's, it's been a long time. And what I noticed the other day, I went in to, to check on a couple things and make sure everything was working the way it's supposed to. There was some, like, account merge I had to do, and I've noticed that several people who've been supporting us, um, pretty much since the beginning- have their accounts listed in a declined status. [00:04:00] And what that means is that their, probably their credit card that they use, uh, has expired, and so now they're not, no longer supporting the show even though they think they are. So if you are a person who believes you're supporting the show, particularly if you've been supporting the show for a long time, and you wanna continue to support the show, uh, we would really appreciate if you took a minute to go into your Patreon account, double-check that the, you know, that you've been, um, contributing for the last couple months. Uh, double-check that the credit card you have on file is not, uh, expired or suspended or anything like that. Um, again, if you've made a decision that it's time to stop, uh, stop the show, or if this is the point where you realize, "I don't care enough to re-support to the show," um, that's fine. We love you. We've appreciated your support. We hope you keep listening. Uh, but if you do wanna continue to contribute, please do check that. And if you've never taken a chance to think through whether or not you want to support the show, uh, Jesse and I are so thankful for all the support we have.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  Tony Arsenal: Uh, but things are getting more expensive, and, um, you know, that's, that's [00:05:00] just a reality for all of us, and that includes things like podcasting hosting fees. Um, the cost of our, our editing software that we use has gone up. That's a subscription. Uh, the cost of hosting space has gone up. Um, all of that, uh, all of that has gone up, and so even though we've had steady supporters, it's kinda like we have lost supporters, um, financially because the money doesn't go quite as far. So if you've ever thought, "Maybe I should, uh, maybe I should contribute to the podcast," please do think about it. Even if just, uh, half of our audience went in and contributed $1 a month, um, that would be a substantial amount. That would really help us to keep the podcast going. And there's actually a number of projects and things Jesse have I, and I have wanted to do, um, that we would love to be able to, you know, to take a step on. Uh, we just don't have funding to do it, uh- Right ... because the funding we have is enough to keep the podcast going but not enough to stretch to something else. So I don't wanna, like, preload that too much, 'cause who knows if it's gonna happen, but there's some things that we wanna do [00:06:00] that would involve a little bit of upfront capital that we would need- Right to get some contrib- contributions on. So please do consider that. We appreciate you so much if you've been a supporter. We appreciate you so much if you've even considered it. Uh, and we appreciate you so much just for listening, uh, especially- Yes ... if you've been with us, you know, this is episode 500. That's a lot of podcasting- Yeah, it is ... directly in your ear hole. So thank you so much for that.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're so grateful.  Why We Keep Doing This Jesse Schwamb: It's fun just to think how many episodes we recorded, but also how many interesting conversations and topics, all the inside jokes. It really is a community. That's in part why we started this, is to sit down together and to bring other brothers and sisters into the fray, as it were, or maybe to bring us into your fray a little bit and to encourage and edify the church, the brothers and sisters, the saints around the world. And it is an around the world kinda podcast, which is remarkable too. So- Yes ... we're just gonna keep being here. As long as the Lord tarries and He allows us to do this, we'll just keep doing it. And again, we've recorded in closets, in cars on the way to things. We've done it at [00:07:00] the beach, and we've done it in cold environs, and we've done it in hot environs. And you're right, you reminded me of that time where we were desperately waiting as we were getting snowed in for the plow to come. And then it was all hands on deck, and we just dropped the recording equipment and said, "We gotta get out of here." And more often than not, the p- joy of this podcast is it just kinda finds its way into our normal rhythm of life. But it- Yeah ... comes out of our life, and out of a life that's been transformed by Christ. And so that's really what we come back to.  Mark Only Parable Preview Jesse Schwamb: In fact, that's the whole thing that we're in right now. We're going through all these parables. And this episode, we can't stop, won't stop. We're gonna continue to hit you with the content that we love, which is talking about Jesus. And so we're in one of the few... Well, it's a Markan parable that only appears in Mark. That's why I called it Markan, I guess. So extra bonus points to you, that's both extra and bonus, if you know which one it is before I say it. But there's a lot for us to talk about- ... because we're getting into this really, really short little story, but it's really chock-full, of course, as Jesus likes to do with all [00:08:00] kinds of spiritual truth. It's about a farmer chucking a seed on the ground, and then he goes about his business. He eats, he sleeps, he binge-watches the Jane equivalent of Netflix. He sleeps again, he wakes up. And while he does this, the seed is doing entirely its own thing without his help or understanding. He didn't make it grow. He can't explain how it grows. He just shows up at the end with a sickle to collect what God has already finished. Man, if there isn't a Reformed theological parable, I don't know what one is. Yeah. So we're gonna get to all of that on this 500th episode. I mean, it's something to be saying that even the US is only 250 years old, and- we've already recorded twice as many podcasts as there are years of experience in the US. But besides all of that, it wouldn't be- It's like- ... Reformed Brotherhood-  Tony Arsenal: I don't know if you've seen this. That reminds me of those things online where it's like, like, "Elon Musk is a billi- is a trillionaire. That means he could give every person on earth $1 billion- Oh, yeah and still would be a multi-billionaire." And you're like, "That's, that's not mathematically true." 'Cause when [00:09:00]you said that, I was like, "You mean the podcast is older than the country?"  Jesse Schwamb: Oh, math. I have a feeling we're gonna come back to that. Oh, math.  Tony Arsenal: Oh, math.  Affirm Or Deny Segment Jesse Schwamb: Now, of course, if you listen for any length of time, you know it wouldn't be an episode if we didn't have a time of affirming with or denying against. Of course, that is that time where we pick something that we like, we think everybody should be a part of, that we wanna recommend, and we affirm with it. Or on the opposite, instead we say, "We deny against this thing because it's just no good." So Tony, on this 500th episode, I'm just gonna keep saying it over and over again, so lest the listeners forget, what are you affirming with or denying against? Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Scammer Payback Recommendation Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming, um, a little YouTube channel that I found. Uh, it takes a little bit of setup to explain it, but the, the channel is called Scammer Payback. Ooh. Um, and it's, it's a... I think most people have probably seen, like, the Gene Fieith- Gene Veith, um, like, where he, he gets a, some sort of scammer on the phone, and he sorta just, like, [00:10:00] trolls them and makes, kinda makes them sound dumb and, you know, pretends to play along just to see how long he can keep them on the phone. Those are really funny. These are funny, but they're on a whole different level of seriousness, which is a weird sentence. Um, basically what this is is a group of professional hackers, um, and there's, this is a serious kinda sting operation they have going. They don't use their real names on the channel. Um, there's one, there's one, um, where they interview, like, a social, um, a social engineer whose job is to... Her- she is a person who basically, uh, does social hacking, and she helps companies who, who their security people think, like, their executives are, um, susceptible to social engineering, social hacking. She'll actually call and, like, mess around with the CEOs and socially hack them. Um, they interviewed her, and the first thing she said when she sat down was the person she was talking to's first name, and the guy was just stunned. He's like, "I- we- we've never used my first name on the channel before." So they're very serious, and what they do is they identify [00:11:00] a scam or a g- usually a group of scammers, and they'll actually hack into and infiltrate the computer systems that they're using. And so they show you everything that they're doing. Um, they're, they're explaining the scam and how it's run. Um, and a lot of times they're actually actively intervening in, uh, in a scam, trying to stop a scam that's in progress because somebody is about to lose a lot of money. I mean, I think one of the things that's important about this is our audience, you know, mostly, mostly guys probably, like, age, I don't know, late 20s, early 30s, maybe early 40s, we kind of grew up and lived, lived in a world most of our adult lives or all of our adult lives where, like, fishing schemes and other kinds of, like, um, data s- data theft, like, that was just in the air. It was just normal. So we're... It's not like we're immune to it, but we're used to it, and we're ready for it, and we're looking for it. That means that most of us have parents that are in a generation who are particularly susceptible to this. [00:12:00] So I think it would be worth, worth people's time to take a look at this, uh, just as a educational piece, and then, yes, share it with your family members who are in this era. People get taken for a ton of money. Yeah. The reason that these older generation sort of bu- builder Boomer generations are targeted is not just because they're somewhat soft targets, but they also have the money. Um, most of, most of the wealth in our country is possessed by people in that generation. It's just an economic fact in a lot of places and a lot of areas, and so that's why they're targeted. So take a little bit of time, watch the show. It's... And it's entertaining. It's really well produced. It's funny. These are non-Christians, you know, who are, are being non-Christian, so there's a fair amount of salty language, especially when they're interacting directly with the scammers that they absolutely hate. Um, but it's, it's worth watching. And, and it... I think it'll... I think it's entertaining. Most of the time it's like a 15-minute video, so it's not too much of your time. Pop that on two times [00:13:00] speed on YouTube and, and you're all set.  Jesse Schwamb: And when you say salty you're not talking about Salty the Singing Songbook, right? Tony Arsenal: Correct. Yeah. Not P-S-A-L-T-Y. S-A-L-T-Y.  Jesse Schwamb: Just in case. I wouldn't want any of the loved ones to go and just be waiting for Salty to show up, like, in the mid- Which would be kind of epic in the midst of this, like, scamming shutdown, the sting operation. Like, Salty s- pops up and starts singing about restorative justice and- Yeah what it means that God restores all things. I mean, that would have a good place in this, but I just want that just to be clear. We don't, we don't want anybody to, to at us on that.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure. Well, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?  Jesse Loves Algebra Jesse Schwamb: I'm going to return to that beautiful intro you gave about mathematics and the whole Elon Musk thing. And so my affirmation is simply, like, just do... Just enjoy all the math you can. Use all the math that you know. So my wife and I were watching some kind of program on YouTube, and it was a program in which there are a couple [00:14:00]people competing in this kind of escape room situation, and as escape rooms are want to do, there came some kind of small math problem. And it goes something like this, is the best I can remember it. It was what number between one and nine when it is tripled and five is added to it is the same as that number being doubled and having one added to it? Now, as soon as that problem was read, we were watching intently, and I turned to my wife and I said, "Why do they need to say it's between, like, one and nine?" And she goes, "Well, how else would they know what the number was?" And I was like, "Well, like, this is a beautiful little algebra thing, like se- series of equations. Like, you have two equations here." And she's like... Just gave me a blank look. So I was like, "Oh, man." So she's like, "Okay. Do it then. Do it." So I was like, "Give me a piece of paper." So I, I was just like, this is gonna be such a beautiful thing. So I was like, "All this is, is, like, it's basically 3x minus five equals 2x plus one. You're solving for whatever this missing number is, and they've given you this beautiful setup, [00:15:00] which you rarely get in real life, but this beautiful setup is a system of equations. We have two things you know are gonna turn out to be the same. They've just been said in different ways, and that allows you enough space to figure out how to solve for them using a little bit of algebra." So I realized then this is why they said between one and nine, because the contestants then proceeded just to iteratively pick numbers until they found the answer, which is not a bad way. Like, that's a way to use, like, all the math you have. Certainly, that's a way. But I showed her how it was like, this is the answer, six, and you don't even need to know where to start because you don't need to start anywhere. You can actually figure this out. Still not really impressed. And then she said something to me that just, like, kind of rocked my world. I said, like, "Well, I'm sure this is familiar to, with, to you." And she's like, "Oh, yeah. Like, I learned algebra." And she goes, "Yeah, I, I know algebra. I just don't do it anymore. I just don't use it anymore." And I was like What, what I heard was, like, basically her saying to me, "I used to brush my teeth, but I just don't do it [00:16:00] anymore." 'Cause I was like, "This is such a beautiful thing." So then I got it in my head, well, well here's the problem. It's just a matter of seeing the results. So I was like, "Well, here's the amazing thing is yes, these are abstract concepts. Yes, it's like each of those is a function. It's, it's a representation of what he just said in the problem. But," and this is my grave mistake, Tony. But I was like, "Really, Descartes showed us that we can think about these not as abstractions, but we can plot them geometrically as lines on a Cartesian plane." And so I was like, "Really we can show that these are two lines and they have a relationship together." And then I was like, "Guess where they intersect? Guess where they intersect?" And she's like, "I w- that's impossible to even know. I have no idea where they intersect." I was like, "No, no. Just, just based on what we're saying, the beauty of this is they have a relationship. They're gonna come together at some point, like you and I in life. They're gonna, they're gonna come together. Guess where that would be?" And she's like, "That would be impossible to know." And I was like, "It's not, actually." So I showed her that, you know, left and right, up and down, X and Y, however you wanna speak [00:17:00] about it, those two lines are gonna intersect, at least on the X. The X spot is gonna be the number six. It's the same thing. Still nothing. So after all of that, I just appreciate my wife is such a brilliant lady, that she just doesn't need algebra. She goes through life just, like, crushing problems without... Like, because she'd like to do it, I think, just the, the more challenging, difficult, iterative way. And, uh, she doesn't use algebra anymore. Just no need for it. So in many ways I respect that. In other ways, again, the affirmation is like, use all the math you have available to you because it's a beautiful thing. I think basically at the end of that I ended up in, like, a very supreme place of doxology, and my wife was like, "Can we just go back to watching TV now?" So but I, I have to say, like, and I, I know you, you share my appreciation for math and stuff like this. Like, it's not even just puzzles. It's just the beauty that, like, we can do this, and that there's such a created order, like a supremely created order, that these rules of ma- mathematics aren't just impounded. They're like the fabric in which God has, [00:18:00] has basically woven all of reality such that we can do this kind of thing, and that even a simple problem in escape room can lead us to appreciate how intensely ordered and beautiful the world is, that we can go after knowledge and solve for explicit things that seem abstract beyond our comprehension and reason to begin with, but have been brought to a place we might understand them. That is, like, an insanely glorious thing to me. So algebra is great, loved ones. I've recommended before, but the side affirmation is go to Khan Academy if you wanna brush up on your algebra skills. I think algebra is, like, some of the most beautiful and intensely practical math ever. I love calculus, but calculus you don't get a lot of, like, use. You can use algebra to solve all kinds of things, whether it's like tips or... Like, it's gonna save you so much time. If you're ever in escape room, I'm just telling you, do not do this iteratively. Just get the, your system of equations down, and you will be, like, tearing out of that room, and then you'll look like a hero. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  Math In Everyday Life Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, like, even the f- even the, the... How do I wanna say this delicately? Uh, [00:19:00] even the idea that we, quote, "don't use algebra" means people don't actually understand that we're using algebra all the  Jesse Schwamb: time.  Tony Arsenal: Exactly. Right. Like, I could buy I don't use calculus or I don't use trigonometry- Right or even I don't use geometry. Um, but to say I don't use algebra, like just basic. I mean, I know like basic equations are, I guess, technically arithmetic, but like how many times does someone have to, have to go, "All right, the tip, the, the bill is X number of dollars. The bill is-" Right ..."$100, and I wanna give a 15% tip, so what's the outcome?" Like, that's an algebraic equation, right? That's right. Um, or a more, I think a more common one would be like, "All right, the bill is this amount. I want my, uh, my final amount that I give billed to me to be an even number."  Jesse Schwamb: Right. " Tony Arsenal: And I also want to give at least 15%, 20%, whatever percent, so what's the number I need to use in order to get to a bill that is, or a [00:20:00] tip that is both 15% or higher and results..." Like, all of those things are algebraic equations.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  Tony Arsenal: So I think, yeah. I mean, even like, "I need to get to work by such and such a time. What time do I need to leave?" Right. "I know it takes-" Exactly. "... a certain amount of time." Right. So I think we, we all use algebra a lot more than we, we probably realize, and I think you're right. Like, when people say, "Well, I don't use my math anymore," what they're saying is like, "I don't use, I don't use the stuff that I had to show my work on anymore." Right. "I don't use the stuff that I have to do on paper anymore." But, um, it's funny, we had a, a conversation, by the way, Reformed Tele- Reformed Brotherhood Telegram chat is a thing. Uh, we had a conversation in the Reformed Brotherhood Telegram chat a little while ago. One of our members was trying to figure out some sort of, like- And it was a problem having to do with like a, an air conditioning throttle or whatever it's called. Some sort of like programming in an air conditioner. And we went through it, we figured out that one of the like relatively complex parts of the equation that he was trying to figure out actually no matter what values you [00:21:00] put in, uh, equated to one. And then the other one was like it was ti- and then it was times one. So it was like whatever you put in ended up to that times one was the rest of the equation. It was like a huge, or like a relatively large equation that resolved down to one. So it was like you're trying to figure out all this complicated math and really like that entire, uh, that entire complicated equation was doing nothing in the rest of the equation. Nice. It was doing absolutely nothing. Um, so we were able to sort of like figure out, all right, well now all we need to do is figure out what, what this relationship does. Right. Um, and even something like in that particular situation, there were some values that the equation couldn't possibly balance. Which again, you could plot that on a graph and see like there's a spot... I don't, I'm, I'm making this up, but I think this is probably not wrong. There's a spot where it's like this is a parabolic equation, and so at some point the parable, or the par- parable, I didn't even mean to do that. There we go. At some point the [00:22:00] parabola goes back up, and so like there is no point- Right ... when it reaches this number. So values that would be in that, in that zone or in that range- Right ... they, they don't work in the equation. So yeah, I think math, uh, algebra is, uh, you know, basic arithmetic obviously is, is relatively straightforward. Algebra's probably the most simple, uh, form of math that your average person uses on a regular basis.  Jesse Schwamb: For sure.  Trigonometry And Design Tony Arsenal: But it's funny, I remember the first time, um, the very first time that I realized trigonometry was not just some abstract thing that we would never use. And it's so funny, 'cause it's like the nerdiest, the nerdiest example. I was playing a tabletop RPG with my friends, we were in high school, and we were, we were learning trigonometry at the time. I was playing a tabletop RPG, and we were trying to figure out- Um, it was a, it was like a futuristic tabletop RPG, so we were using like, like laser guns or something like that that have a certain range. And we were trying to figure out if the thing that was flying in the air from us was within range or not.  Jesse Schwamb: Nice.  Tony Arsenal: And what we realized [00:23:00] is that's just a quadratic equation, right? Right, it is. I just need to calculate. I know how far away it is from me in a straight line, I know how high in the air it is, so I need to just- Right now I need to... Or not, not the quadratic. That's Pythagoras' theorem, right? Yep. I need to calculate the Pythag- or the, um, the hypotenuse.  Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. I  Tony Arsenal: knew where you were going. Yeah. So, like, I remember distinctly, I, I mean, I remember where I was sitting in my friend's basement going, "Oh, my goodness, trigonometry actually has a practical application here." Um, you know, whether that's figuring out how much rope I need to be able to, to attach to a tree and still be able... Like, all of these different things ultimately are math, and, or as the, the Brits say, are maths. And, uh, the, it, it's just a beautiful thing. And I think you're right, like, this is evidence that the universe has a structure- And a designer because- Right you can describe the universe using this- Nice ... sort of universal numerical language that, um, in, for the most part, describes everything we can [00:24:00] see. I mean, obviously, like, they're still learning things. They're still figuring things out. But what we can see with our senses, we can also describe with math on some level. Even something like the colors that we see can be reduced to a, a number, a frequency, a wavelength. So yeah, I'm with you. Use your algebra. Find ways to use it.  Jesse Schwamb: Use it. It's the... I like what you said, that we're using it. We just don't realize it. There's a spiritual lesson in there, I think, as well, that it's, it's present all around us, and it's... I like what you said. It's, like, the, the most, like, grabbable. It's the thing that's pretty easy to grasp, yet has, like, some beautiful outworkings that are super complex. All the time I love to, like, mess with people, even people who are, like, say, like, "Oh, I'm not into math." I'm like, "That's okay." Like, it's... You're, you're living in a mathematical world, and you're certainly using it, but that, that's okay.  Imaginary Numbers Wonder Jesse Schwamb: But like, sometimes I'll just say to somebody, like, "How do you know, like actually know that, like a negative number times a negative number is a positive number?" Like, who came up with that, and how do you know? And why are we just trusting him? Why can't somebody just say, "You know what? For me, it's not. I'm gonna make that a [00:25:00] negative number"? And w- the reason is because algebra provides... There's a lot of proofs, but algebra provides the most simple, beautiful proof. And then once you, once you basically contravene that law, like, everything falls apart. I- it's... And the question we should be asking is why does everything fall apart if we contravene one simple law, wh- which is two negative numbers multiplied, the product of them has to be, must be, is always a positive number. And that's, like, not even getting into, like, the more crazy things. Like, everybody should go look up, like, what imaginary numbers are. That will kind of mess with your mind, but then we found ways to use imaginary numbers, which are exactly what they sound like- Yeah ... to solve, like, incredible problems. Where does that come from? It comes from the Lord. It comes from God's, like, creative ability that He's placed in mankind to go after and to take a dominion over the knowledge and the creative order in such a complex and creative way. It mimics and mirrors the creativity of our Heavenly Father, and it is altogether beautiful. So on this- Yeah ... 500 episode that has a lot of numbers associated with it, I [00:26:00] say go love the numbers. Go enjoy them. Wherever you are in life, whatever your enjoyment of math is, big or small, go try to find some way to enjoy it today. Tony Arsenal: Can I, can I throw in a, a weird relevant sub-affirmation to your affirmation? I  Jesse Schwamb: mean, please.  Tony Arsenal: This is our show, so I'll do what I want to. You can do what you want. First, when you say we live in a mathematical world, all I could think of was some Perry song of Material Girl. Material  Jesse Schwamb: World?  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Odd Squad Math Tony Arsenal: I am a mathematical boy, and I live in a ma- Anyway, um, there is a show that I watch with August, my son, who is almost five. Uh, he'll be five in March. And, um, it's called Odd Squad. And what Odd Squad is, is it's a sort of a s- like a spy-themed kids show with a touch of like, uh, almost like Twilight Zone. Like, there's so- It's they manage odd. Like, they're the Odd Squad because they, they respond to odd emergencies, so it's a lot of like weird monsters and aliens and like time travel paradoxes and strange stuff. But the answer [00:27:00] to the problem is always related somehow to a math principle. So they will talk about how like multiplication is just addition like many times over.  Jesse Schwamb: Sure.  Tony Arsenal: And that's actually why multiplying a negative number times a negative number is a positive number or, you know, like, or multiplying by a negative number is a negative number, right? And that's because like really what you're doing if you multiply two, uh, two times negative three is you're subjecting, you're subtracting two from two from two, which gives you, you know- Right ... a negative number. So it's, it's not, uh, it, it's for kids, but I actually have realized that I understand math better- because of watching the show.  Jesse Schwamb: I  Tony Arsenal: love it. And it's because they break it down in, you know, the, the audience- Yes ... the target audience is a little bit older than August. I think the target audience is probably like six to seven, maybe eight years old. Um, and so they're talking about math principles geared towards those groups. But they'll talk about things like [00:28:00] using a number line to be able to understand math, and so like visualizing it. Or they'll talk about how multiplication is really just groups of things. So yeah, check it out.  Why Math Matters Tony Arsenal: And again- Algebra is probably the most, uh, easy to grab of the disciplines, but that's because that's the one we are using every day all the time. Tony Arsenal: And we don't realize it. But again, like, calculus is a beautiful, a beautiful thing. Um, and there are some amazing things that exist in the world that can really only be understood and described in a certain sense by something like calculus or trigonometry. Um, my favorite, I, I wish I had, like, kept it up, but one of my favorites is geometry 'cause I think a lot of it is, that's, like, the closest to puzzles. Yes. Um, uh, so, like, I, I used to love doing proofs and axioms and stuff. So, and then of course logic is technically related to math. It's a related discipline to math- It is ... in that it, it's, it's actually, like, the language that underlies a lot of the mathematics is [00:29:00] logical formulas. So it's all relevant. It's all beautiful. It all describes God's creation, and it all redounds to His glory.  Jesse Schwamb: You got that right.  Mark Growing Seed Jesse Schwamb: And speaking of both His creation and His glory, and Jesus teaching of both of those things, we are, as we promised, hanging out in the Book of Mark, and we've got just four sentences. And what I love about this parable that we're about to read is it fits in so perfectly with something I think you and I have been saying from the very beginning, which is it's tempting when we think about the parables to consider, like, a single element or to distill them down to, like, a single word and say, "We hear the kingdom of God is this thing, this noun, this object, this person." But instead, the case we've been making is it's actually generally a series of verbs, or in this case, it's the whole four verses that Jesus is gonna give to us here. So let me just read Mark 4:26-29. That's all it is, loved ones. And it's a good thing because we're already knee-deep into this 500th episode. So this goes by various names. I've heard it called, [00:30:00] like, the Parable of the Growing Seed, or sometimes people call it, like, the Parable of the, The Secret Seed. I'm not sure that's really secret, but I suppose the increase is secret in a way, and that's really what Jesus is communicating to us in these verses. So Mark 4:26: "And Jesus was saying, 'The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil, and he sleeps and he rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows, how he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself, first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. But when the grain is ripe, he immediately puts in the sickle because the harvest has come.'" Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, this is, um, an interesting parable, and I'll be the first to admit, like, when you said, "Well, why don't we do the king- the parable of the growth next?" I was like, "I don't actually know what Jesse's talking about." So if you're in the same boat as I am and [00:31:00] you, uh, you are like, "Wait, there's the... This is a parable? Like, this exists in the Bible?" Um, you're not alone, and I think part of the reason is that, one, it's so short, but it also sort of, like, connects into the next parable thematically. I don't know necessarily- Hmm ... about the content and the meaning, but thematically it sort of blends into the next parable, which is the parab- Mark's version of, um, of the parable of the mustard seed. So it's, it's hard to delineate unless you're really thinking about it, but I'm glad that we're talking about it because I think this is probably one of those parables that doesn't get a lot of attention because it's so short and because it is, um, it is sort of thematically in a spot where I think it does sort of, I don't know, like seep into the next- Right parable.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's a tendency because you're right, it's sandwiched between the Parable of the Sower and the Parable of the Mustard Seed, both of which we've talked about from Matthew's perspective, that it seems like maybe the theme is redundant, but [00:32:00] it is altogether different with the emphasis. Uh, there, it's true I guess that all three of these parables are addressing that same underlying question the disciples in the early church were asking, which is, if Jesus truly inaugurates the Kingdom of God, then why does it seem so impressive? Why is it so slow or hidden in contrast to all the expectations that the Jews had for what they thought would be this dramatic, immediately visible rain? And so I like that there is a lot said within four verses. And again, from our perspective, this thing seems so distinctly reformed in its under- Yeah of course the whole Bible is that way, but maybe nothing more so than this, especially because we'll get to it, but the center of this parable being, and there's various translations, that this guy doesn't even know. He doesn't understand. He's totally ignorant to what is going on, and isn't that... I, I mean, I can only speak for my own test- that's the story of my life, uh, spiritually and otherwise. That again, if you wanna talk about God doing all the verbs, I guess Mark had it first. I thought maybe I coined that, but [00:33:00] turns out that Mark, well, actually Jesus, the Son of God himself, says it best here. So let, let's get into this because the beautiful thing is you and I can handle theoretically in the time allotted here, like three or four verses. That, that's theoretically possible for us to do, but we, we're only gonna h- see how far it goes. Um-  Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  Hidden Kingdom Growth Jesse Schwamb: I think the first thing to say here is that we get that beautiful characteristic, like formula, like the controlling paradigm. It's that Kingdom of God again. And a- as I kinda set up, it's the Kingdom of God, though, launched into a bunch of, uh, verbs. Uh, this idea of like him casting, and then him sleeping, and then him waiting, and then him getting up, and then the growth happens, and then he comes again at the end, this character, this farmer, into kind of the consummation of that kingdom. And I think there's a lot here that's maybe to explain that tension. The kingdom is real and active. It's irresistibly moving towards some kind of fixed end, but it does not appear in its final glory, and that is something you kind of get with the other two parables. [00:34:00] But here it's just like so lovely. It's right in front of you. That, that's like the whole emphasis and thrust of what Jesus seems to be saying in this. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think this one's interesting because, you know, generally in the parables, at least in, in... I, I would have to do a little bit more study to know if this is, like, distinctly Markan or whatnot. But in the, the, um, Matthew's parables, um, or Christ's parables reported in Matthew, um, primarily the main figure of the parable is, uh, is generally is God or, or more specifically is often Jesus himself. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Right? But in this parable, it wouldn't make sense for us to say that somehow g- you know, God or Jesus scatters seed, and then He doesn't know that it sprouts. Right. Right? So, so the, the parable implies that the one scattering seed, and again, we don't wanna over-interpret parables. Generally speaking, parables are teaching kind of a principle of some sort, a comparison of some sort, not, it's not an allegory. [00:35:00] In, in most cases it's not an allegory where each element has a direct representation of some sort. But it wouldn't make sense for this to be talking about God's perspective on scattering or Christ's perspective on scattering, 'cause obviously God and Jesus, even, even if we're talking about Jesus according to His humanity, um, has some sort of awareness of the workings of the Kingdom of God that is not the ignorance that the parable here seems- Right to present of the one scattering.  Scatter Then Rest Tony Arsenal: So I, I really do think this parable has more to say to us about- Our own perspectives on evangelism and on how the Kingdom of God will propagate. And I think, um, both in terms of, like, evangelism, there's an element here, an encouraging element of, you know, all your s- your job... And what's really funny is I, I don't recall this parable being used in my experience to sort of [00:36:00] encourage people that all, your own, your job is just to scatter. You don't need to worry about the growth. Mm-hmm. There's a, there's a passage in Paul about one person scatters, one person waters, and God brings the growth that is often used to sort of say, like, it's not your responsibility to make sure that the, the, the, um, the bud is, you know, c- comes to flowering and to fruiting. It's just your job to be faithful to scatter or to water or whatever step it's on. This, I think, has even more encouragement for us in that the one who scatters, um, i- is obviously God, but there's also this element that, like, we're scattering. The one scattering is not omniscient. But the one scattering, uh, he doesn't even know how or why or even that, I think, that the, um, that the f- the growth is occurring, and that's the most- Right remarkable part of this. Like, we're not talking about a normal farmer who is aware of how growth [00:37:00] occurs, is aware of the timing. He's constantly checking. He's making sure that he's checking the soil, that he's applying manure, that he's watering the crops. This is literally like some dude who just throws seed out, and then, then just goes back to his daily business of sleeping and rising and going about his day. And then all of the sudden, the earth, quote, "by itself produces." And I think that's the real key here is- There's something about the Kingdom of God and the seed that the Kingdom of God scatters. It's almost like the Kingdom of God itself is the one scattering here.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Yep. The Kingdom of God and the seed that is scattered in and as a result of the Kingdom of God, it produces the outcome autonomously. It doesn't require us to input into it, at least in the context of this parable. Now, again, the Parable of the Talents would be very clear to us that we can't just rest on our loyals- laurels. God expects us to work and to be fruitful for the kingdom. [00:38:00] But there is this element here of, like, you are not the one responsible for the production of the seed and the fruiting and flowering of the seed. In fact, you're not even responsible for being aware that it occurs or how it occurs. Your only responsibility, the only active verb in this whole thing is... Well, there's a couple. The, the, the main active verb is the scattering. The other active verb is the sleeping. So, like- Right ... we, we scatter, and then we, we rest and we trust that God is going to do His work. Jesse Schwamb: Right. Even on the face, there's so much in this that does seem mysterious. Like, if you just take this parable and think about the act of agriculture, and I sometimes think about this because I do love plants, and we have a bunch of plants in our house, and I'm horrible at trying to get them to grow. And I think about what still a mystery it is. With all we know about science, just that you can still plant something, a seed, and water it, and the sugars will break down, and the seed will take root, and that something will grow and flower, and you think, "Oh, who is doing that?" And, and w- [00:39:00] I think we'll get into this, the first and second principles, first and second causes here, which are, I think, certainly something that Christ intends for us to consider here. But there is this idea that the man's action is simple and passive relative to what follows. He, like you said, just scatters the seed. And he's a real agent, but as the parable unfolds, it's almost like his entire agency recedes entirely from view. And that's what kind of sets for me, like this whole trajectory of the parable. It's that the mechanism of growth is strangely hidden from the human agent, and it belongs to God alone. And so you already stole it from me, but I'm gonna read 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, which is, coheres directly with what's happening, I think, in this parable. And this reads, or Paul writes, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth." And so there is like an extension, I think, of that application inward though as well. Kind of like when you were speaking about that, what occurred to me is that we see in the [00:40:00] farmer's like day and night unawareness, this picture, I think, of this often gradual, imperceptible work of grace in our own hearts, in every believer's heart. Like that, that sanctification process, it proceeds by these degrees, and the Christian cannot fully trace even in himself, yet it is definitely real, and it's definitely God's doing. And then I think as well we might pull out a thread of this, you know, ecclesiological truth. You know, the church's growth is God's work, not the fruit of human strategy. And then by application even further into that, it's based upon a soteriological one, which is like the ordo salutis, which is maybe half of every episode we've recorded talks about the ordo salutis in some ways. That too is unfolding by this divine power, and it's hidden from the creature's full comprehension, and that's consistent in this parable and in all of Scripture, that this regeneration precedes and produces faith rather than the reverse. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think too there's also an element in this passage, you know, when you think about... Uh, [00:41:00] I'm not a farmer, uh, and I, I don't know that many farmers, but when you think about how f- how modern farming works, it's very different than, uh, ancient farming, right? Historically, ancient farming was, uh, I think probably a lot of just trusting the world to do what the world does and, and trusting God to do what, what God does. A- and I think that's probably why a lot of like- When you look at, um, pagan religion, the, the fertility cults and the sort of goddesses and gods of the harvest were all related because there was this mystery to it. And so the reason that there's so much, uh, cultic worship around fertility and harvest is because it is so mysterious, and you just kinda have to, like, trust that it's gonna happen. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Right? You sow your seed in, you sow the seed of your field in, you know, the fall, uh, and, or in the, the, you know, the summer, and then you wait several [00:42:00] months and just hope that the crop comes in. And our modern agricultural world is not all that different. We have better tools and we can measure things that, like the soil, the nutrients in the soil. We can, you know, we can do all sorts of different imaging to see of what's happening underground. But at the end of the day, even with all of the advances we have, the farmer still can't make the crop come in.  Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  Tony Arsenal: Either the crop comes in or it doesn't. And I, I think there's this element of trust here that I think is really useful for us. And again, I think you're right. This is like, uh, it feels almost wrong to say it this way, but it's like this is a super distinctively Reformed parable. Like, of all, all of the parables in the, the Gospels, this one is like, on the face of it, a Calvinist parable. Yeah. Exactly. Like, it's like God just grows the kingdom- Yes and nobody does anything about it.  Jesse Schwamb: Amen.  Tony Arsenal: And I don't need to go into more details than that. But there is this element for us, I think, as, uh, as those [00:43:00] who want to share the gospel, there can be an anxiety around trying to ensure some sort of production, some sort of produce, uh, and productivity from that, that is just not healthy. And I think, you know, we, we have a responsibility as Christians, um, to be faithful and diligent in doing what God has called us to do. But if, if we read this parable as the one who scatters is sort of like the evangelist, then the only responsibility we have as evangelists, and all of us are evangelists, right, lowercase E evangelists, um, all of us, the only responsibility we have is to scatter the seed of the gospel. Jesse Schwamb: That's  Tony Arsenal: right. And we're not responsible for the growth. We're not responsible for even really understanding how growth happens, uh, or even, even doing much about it until it's time to harvest that growth. And I think that's, we need to talk about what that means too, because again, like [00:44:00] this is a parable that I think is maybe not as, as clean and clear as some of the, uh, Methanian parables where it really does seem like there's a pretty clear symbolic representation on some things. This one feels like it's maybe a little muddier in that, um, the main character and the role of the s- the one who's scattering seems to sort of almost shift throughout the parable, which is crazy to say because it's only like four verses long.  Tony Arsenal: But it, it does seem like at some points the scatterer is God, at other points it can't be God, and then it seems like, well, who's harvesting? It's not really us, so it's gotta be God. So I think it's, it's important for us to hold this parable as more of a general principle about the Kingdom of God than it is about any sort of like really direct one-to-one teaching on the, on the Kingdom of God.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's a interesting distinction.  Providence And Causes Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I would say about that, I think, is let's equate this to, like, coffee. You like a good cup of coffee. I do. I like a good cup of coffee. I think if we were to take, let's [00:45:00] say, the Parable of the Prodigal, that would be for me like a big Dunkin' Donuts coffee. Like, it's delicious, mild-bodied, maybe a little bit light. This parable is like two shots of espresso- Yeah ... 'cause there's a lot in there, and we could probably take a lot of time even t- speaking about, like you're saying, the more shadowy eschatological truths that appear in verse 29 because those, this idea of, like, a sickle in the harvest, I mean, that's imagery drawn from Old Testament eschatological judgment texts. So that could be pretty heavy in its own right. I think what's critical, before we get to that, is to, like, tease out something you said, which is there is a lot in here about this doctrine of providence, like, this spontaneous self-originating action apart from external human causation. And we've talked a lot, like, we distinguish between primary and second causation. You know, the Earth is genuinely or generally has second- secondary causes, like an ordinary means through which God's ordinary providence operates, but the ultimate primary [00:46:00] cause of growth is God himself. And so here we see that. Like, there's no exclusion of the farmer's agency as an explanatory cause. The soil does what it does because God has ordained the natural order to function in this way. That is his prerogative. And so that threefold progression then, blade, ear, full grain, which by the way I had to look up because my understanding of, like, all kinds of different types of grains is very thin and I'm out of my depth here. But- ... I'm led to believe That that development is gradual, and of course it's ordered, but it's not instantaneous. And so the application here, I think, has traditionally been applied in this corporate individual spiritual growth we're talking about. Like, the church advances through stages of maturity, and so does the individual believer's sanctification, without warranting either impatience or despair at the process's slowness. This is how God works. He does it in His gracious and kind way. And again, He's using this, all of this agriculture to illustrate that purpose. So there's, like, this buildup, I think, [00:47:00] in verse 28 about the incredible providence of God, both like corporatively, personally, in His world, how He is the primary cause, but also uses secondary causes, not in a disjointed or divorced way, but in a way that encapsulates and magnifies His glory. And that is then what leads to or will lead to the reemergence in verse 29 of this whole deal of, like, well, if farmer comes back in, and now he returns, but only at the point of consummation, not at the point of growth.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Harvest And Timing Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, you know, we won't go into all of the ways that this ties into the other parables, but it's worth, uh, it's worth mentioning that in, in both, uh, the parable of the mustard seed, which follows this, and then also the parable of the sort of sower or the seeds, um, there is this element of this, the one who is sowing seeds is not fully cognizant or aware or, and, and absolutely not in [00:48:00] control of the outcome, right? In the parable of the sower, um, he scatters the seed promiscuously, right? And the- Right ... the outcome depends on what kind of ground the seed falls on. And in the parable of the mustard seed, it, it's more of a, like, idea that the, uh, the sower sows a seed that seems so small, but it, the growth of the seed is explosive and expansive because of the nature of the seed, not because of the skill of the sower. Jesse Schwamb: That's  Tony Arsenal: right. Right? In this instance, um- The only thing, again, the only thing that initially the sower is responsible for is the sowing of the seed, the scattering of the seed. But what I also think is interesting is then there is a point where the one who scatters the seed is now responsible to act once he's observed the seed coming to fruition, right? Now, now what exactly that means and how exactly that applies, I think there's a lot of different things we could talk about. Um, but again, [00:49:00] this is a parable that we have to be careful not to, uh, not to restrict just sort of crassly to, like, evangelism. Right. Exactly. Or, or even just to sort of, like, the eschatological harvest. Right. That's what's tricky about this parable, I think, that bears ... And I don't think we'll do it, we'll do it necessarily on the show. It'd be worth having more conversations about. But for our own personal study, it bears deeper reflection because this parable cannot be simply reduced to an eschatology parable about what God does in the end. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: And it can't be simply reduced to a parable about evangelism because strictly speaking, like, we're not really the ones that harvest when the harvest comes in, right? I've, I have heard this parable, um, preached, you know, like I said, although I acknowledge that I, um, like forgot that it existed. I have heard this parable preached as though, like, "Well, our responsibility is to scatter seed. We're not responsible for [00:50:00] making it grow or making it take root. But when we see that it's taking root, we're responsible for jumping in and harvesting at the right time." I don't think we should draw that conclusion here. Although the, the harvester does see that the ear is ripe, that the grain is ripe, and he harvests it, it would be a weird sort of like shift in the parable to go from the person who scattered seed isn't responsible for its growth, doesn't even know that the growth is happening, but is actually responsible for knowing exactly when to harvest the grain. Right. So we have to think about this again in gen- in terms of general principles of how the Kingdom of God functions. And w- how it functions is it's mysterious, it is, uh, consistent, it happens on a, a scale and on a predictable outcome that we as individuals don't understand and don't have visibility to, and the harvest will occur in its [00:51:00] time, and it will h- occur consistently and reliably. So again, like this is... I hope that maybe like the one or two non-Reformed people that listen to the show aren't terribly offended at this, but like this just is Reformed theology, right? There, there is a seed that is sown, God is responsible for the growth, and the harvest necessarily will help it happen when it's supposed to happen, right? When the r- when the fruit is ripe, it will be harvested. That doesn't mean I'm responsible as the one who sows seed or scatters or m- witnesses to people from making sure that the, quote, "sickle is put in at the right time," or anything like that.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: The fact is that the sickle will always come in at the right time. The person who has the final kinda piece of the puzzle in evangelism, I think that's how it often happens. Someone hears the gospel repeatedly from multiple places. They have contacts and relationships that tie into how they [00:52:00]ultimately come to accept the gospel and trust Christ. But ultimately it's the Holy Spirit who brings all that into some sort of coherent, um, execution and application of redemption That will happen in God's time. So I wanna be careful not to, like, put too much responsibility on us. Right. And again, this is just a parable that I think bears a lot more reflection, that I think because, um, I think Mark in general, because it's so short, uh, gets, it gets overlooked by Christians. I think we would all do well to spend a little bit more time in Mark. But especially some of these really short pericopes. I think we just read through it, and it's like we read a chapter of Mark, like Mark 4 comes up in our Bible reading plan. Right. And if we're reading the Bible in a year, like, Mark 4 is one of three or four chapters that we read, and this is four verses of that. Right. We just read over it quick and we c- we just, we don't appropriate any of it.  Jesse Schwamb: Right. It sounds like he's just reiterating a point or he's recapitulating something that he's already said or is about to say, and you're like, "Okay, get on with it." But I'm with [00:53:00] you. This parable, like all of them, is for us. It's for our joy. It's for our satisfaction and our comfort. And I think from this, there is, like, a single controlling point that's emerging from our conversation, which is the Kingdom of God advances by God's own hidden power toward a certain appointed consummation. And this ought to produce, like, patient confidence rather than human striving or a- anxiety. In order to give us a sense of calm, a reminder that God's providence is real in all areas of life. Remarkably, we've gotten this far in the conversation, and neither of us has just, has used the M word, which just came to me, and I think we're contractually obligated to say it as a Reformed podcast, and that is this is a prime example of monergism and the sovereignty of grace. And as in regeneration, the decisive cause of kingdom growth lies outside human capacity and comprehension. I think sometimes the latter part of that seems wrong to us. It makes us fearful because we don't understand it. But the former part should make us feel very happy and [00:54:00] relieved, that the capacity belongs to God and God alone. That doesn't depend on me or you or anybody else that we know. And this parable, I think, is often been paired with John's image of the wind blowing where it wishes as this picture of the Holy

In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, Jason and Sarah Hull break down one of the most expensive mistakes property management business owners make: hiring based solely on what the business appears to need instead of what the owner actually needs. They explain why this common approach leaves entrepreneurs overwhelmed, wearing the wrong hats, and trapped inside businesses they no longer enjoy running.  You'll learn how a simple time study can reveal where your energy, focus, and profitability are being lost, why every new hire should solve both a business problem and an owner problem, and how reallocating your time toward high-value activities creates sustainable growth.   You'll Learn [00:00] Why Most Property Managers Hire the Wrong Way [03:18] The Hidden Cost of Bad Hiring Decisions [08:25] Using a Time Study to Find Your Next Hire [13:05] Balancing Your Needs With the Business's Needs [18:12] Why Every Business Owner Needs an Assistant [22:20] Stop Doing Low-Value Work [26:15] Freeing Yourself to Focus on Revenue Growth [29:10] Building a Team That Creates Freedom Quotables "One bad hiring mistake is usually a 10 grand minimum mistake." Jason Hull  "You cannot build the right team around the wrong person." Jason Hull  "Every team member should be born out of a time study." Jason Hull  "The point of having a business is you should get more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution, more support." Jason Hull Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:00) Okay, we are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGro, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGro, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses.   We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. All right. So today's topic, we're going to talk about how to make the decision as a property management business owner to hire. How to effectively decide it's time to hire and how not to screw this up. So we're not going to get into the whole hiring process. We've talked about that a bit on some other   Episodes. If you'd like to hear more about that, reach out to us or check out our other episodes. But today we're going to talk about how to make the right decision of who to get and when to hire and who you need in the business. Cool.   one bad hiring mistake is usually a 10 grand minimum mistake. And anybody that's gone through hiring a lot of team members, you know. Like I've hired lots over the years, and it's been some of them can be pretty painful when you make a bad move. So you want to make sure you make good decisions. So   So here's how most people do it, which is wrong. How most people do it is they look, what does the business need? And they're like, the business needs a maintenance coordinator, or the business needs this. And they just continually keep giving the business what it needs. And so this I call kind of the solopreneur way of hiring hiring. They think the way a solopreneur thinks, they think I do everything. Now I need to hire somebody to do these other pieces that the business needs. And they start building a team based around.   What the business wants.   every team member, should exist if they are taking something off of your plate because you do everything initially. Now, sort of, they're like, well, you know, I'm doing the maintenance stuff, so I need a maintenance coordinator. And that's kind of works. But the problem is if you continually build your team based on what the business seems to be asking for and what it needs, and you're not taking care of yourself, you end up with an entire team.   And you're still miserable in your own business. And this is pretty much most business owners at NARPAM. This is most of the people in the two to 400 door range. So I'm calling you out. So if you are a member of NARPAM and you have between two to 400 units and you are still wearing hats you don't enjoy in your business, I promise you you have the wrong team. Why? Because I know for a fact you cannot build the right team around the wrong person. And so if you're still wearing hats you don't enjoy,   Meaning you are showing up as the wrong person in the business, doing stuff that you don't like doing, that's not your favorite thing, and you've built an entire team around you, you have the wrong team. All right. So how do we fix this? Well, first you have to know that that is your case. So sometimes you talk to people and they have no idea. They don't realize. They go, no, I have a great team. My team is awesome. I I really   So it's hard to fix a problem if you don't recognize that it's the problem. It's almost like when you have a plumbing leak. It's hard to fix that leak if you're not sure where the leak is coming from. So we need to identify where the issue is and then rip the walls open. If we just start ripping the walls open and looking for the leak, it's   just   pretty expensive and inefficient. So we need to recognize, hey, there's a problem leak here. And then we need to identify where is the leak and what is the actual problem. So I'd say that's the very first thing. And sometimes that's also really hard for people to do. Especially when they're attached to their teams. Like, no, I love my team. How many times have we heard that? I love my team. I have to my team's great. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So but they might be great. You might have great people, but they are not   Your ideal team because you're still involved in stuff. So usually what we do is we have them do a time study. This is how we figure out five different currencies: time, energy, focus, cash, and effort. These are the five things that you have to invest in the business that the business has to invest. These are your resources and   In order to hire a new team member or bring somebody else in, you have to make sure that if you're going to reallocate these resources, you've got to do it in a way that's really effective. Otherwise, this could be dangerous. So a lot of times I'll share the analogy so people understand how important this is. if you've ever seen Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom, Indiana Jones, he's running from this giant boulder. He's carrying this gold statue. He's trying to like   Get out of there, and this boulder's rolling down the hill at him, and he's trying to get out of there as quick as possible. Otherwise, squish, Indiana dies, right? So, this is a great analogy for business. So here's how I look at this. Imagine this picture. There is an entrepreneur running from the boulder. What is the boulder? Expenses. It's always moving, it's always coming after you. And sometimes that boulder picks up speed or grows as the business grows.   And so that's expenses. Indiana Jones running, that's sales and revenue generation and generating cash like for the business. The gap in between Indiana Jones running and the boulder, which is expenses, is cash flow. If the business runs out of cash flow, the business is essentially dead. The business dies. Or it goes into debt, which it's just eventually going to die. So we want to make sure that we are.   Constantly generating revenue. The speed, the slope of this path is the speed of which the business grows. And so if we want to grow really fast, we spend a lot more money. There's a lot more expenses. Everything's moving a lot faster.   And so this is where hiring can cause some big problems, or rolling out new tech can cause big problems because we get distracted and we're no longer focused on revenue generation and that has to stay the main thing. So you've got to keep running and you can't stop and unless you're able to somehow dramatically reduce expenses. So it slows down or it's less scary. But you've got to keep running. So we do a time study, and this helps us figure out time, energy, focus, cash, and effort.   Where am I currently investing all this? And is it giving me what I want? Is this according to my highest priorities and what I need? So this is the lens we look at for you. So imagine a Venn diagram with two circles. Circle on the left is you. Circle on the right is the business. Most entrepreneurs build their team, build their systems, build the business, only focusing on the business. And so they end up neglected and they end up more and more miserable. And they end up with a business that becomes like almost like a   master to them. You're like a slave. If you ever felt like a waking up and you're a slave to your own business, you've put too much attention on the business and not enough on yourself.   What happens if your expenses catch up to Indiana Jones? Squished. Right? He gets squished. And as a business owner, it's not a great thing to feel squished. But there is something that probably should be squished. And that's pests. Yuck. So moving into a new place is exciting, but setting up utilities, that's a big pest, isn't it? Yep.   That's where Utility Profit comes in. It's a free tool that property managers share with their tenants during move-in, and it completely takes a headache out of getting the utilities set up. So it's less stressful for you and for them. So here's how it works: tenants get a personalized page with their utility options that are already mapped out for their specific address. Things like internet, electric, gas, you name it, they pick what they need, they set everything up, and it's all in one place.   No Googling, no back and forth with landlords saying, hey, who's the electric company here again? Never heard that one. And for property managers, it's white labeled, so it feels like part of your own onboarding process. You get notified once your tenants' utilities are set up. It's one less thing for you to follow up on on your probably never-ending list of things to follow up on. It's completely free for everyone. There's no contracts and it takes only minutes to get started. So check out   Utility Profit because movement day should feel like a win, not a checklist nightmare with a big pest. Perfect. All right. Thanks to Utility Profit for sponsoring today's episode. All right. And check them out at DorGro Live. That's coming up in October. Yeah. In Austin, the ninth and tenth. So if you're interested in checking out Utility Profit, you can just do a quick search. They should come right up, Utility Profit, or you can see them at   Dorboro Live. Okay. So getting back to what we were just chatting about, Venn diagram, you, the business, we need to shift the attention to you. We have to make sure every new hire is taking something off of your plate because you are doing everything in the business in the beginning. And so if you do a time study, you'll be able to see where am I investing time? What is that time worth financially? Where is my focus currently? Is this helping me reach my goals?   And then we look through a lens for the business, which is the six core functions, which is lead gen, nurture, conversion, delivery, lifetime value, and financial. And so then we're looking what does the business need most? So what does the business need most and what do you need most? And the overlap is where you make your best decisions. So every team member should be born out of a time study.   Basically, when we have our clients do a time study, one of the big factors is energy. It's like, is this a plus sign for you or a minus sign? Does it give you life or energy, or is it taking it away? And if it is a minus sign, we need to find somebody that this would be a plus sign for them and bring them in. And so you're able to give your minus signs to somebody else that enjoys doing it. And this is how we free you up from the business and how we make sure we're hiring somebody that makes sense. And this person   should be helping the business improve your cash flow situation, which means if you're the revenue generator, you're the salesperson or you are your own BDM, that means we're freeing up your time doing minus signs that are also financially draining and getting you to spend time doing revenue generating activities. And that's a really awesome trade. You're basically trading and giving up a little bit of money to go be able to make more money.   And then it's a smart decision to make because that's what the business maybe needs as well, is more lead gen, more nurture, conversion. Those first three functions are sales. So this is how we make the decision to hire. So every new hire, I think, should be born out of a time study. Every new tech or new system you roll out should be born out of a time study. Because otherwise you're just adding expense, you're just adding stuff, you're just adding people, and it's not actually giving you more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution.   More support. And this is the point of having a business is you should get more of what I call the four reasons:   Usually the first person that we recommend that people hire is what? An assistant. Which is wild because a lot of times we'll see a business owner with an entire team and what don't they have? An assistant. And sometimes they'll even have team members. Yeah and he doesn't have an assistant. And I went, Ew, why? What's what's really funny is a lot of times as business owners, because we're hiring and getting what the business needs and not taking care of ourselves.   We will even see team members that have assistance. we have a property manager and an assistant property manager. And yet the business owner is still involved in a lot of things and doing really low level financially ineffective tasks that are like low level, that your time probably as a business owner should be calculated based on what the top line revenue of the company is, divided by like 40 hours a week, divided by, you know.   50 weeks in the year. So basically divide it by 2000, your your annual revenue. That's what your hourly rate should be sort of judged by. And so, you know, if you're a million-dollar business owner, your hourly rate is like probably like 500 bucks an hour or something like this. And you might as well just double it, just for perspective. But you the goal is to get you to a place where you are worth that amount of money. And you're not doing five dollar an hour tasks that maybe or even less that maybe AI could do.   Maybe $10 an hour tasks that a good VA in a foreign country could do that's really seasoned. Maybe $20, $25 an hour tasks that a decent US-based team member could do. And so you want to make sure that you are doing stuff that makes sense for your business. Otherwise, you are losing money.   it's it's hard to argue when you go, Well, you're spending 70% of your time doing tasks that cost twenty dollars or less. And then they go, it's kind of hard to argue with that. Then it starts to become very, very clear that yeah, we need to make some shifts in the business. Yeah. If if I ever hear hear a business owner and I ask, Who's your main salesperson? Who does the business development? And they're like, That's me.   Cool, what are you spending most of your time doing? If they don't say that thing, there's a problem. Because sales is the lifeblood of the business. They're like, I want to grow. Cool. Who's your salesperson? Me. Cool. What are you spending your time doing? Maintenance, coordination, leasing, inspections, well, like posting notices. Cool. So if you're great at doing sales or you have a team member that's great at doing sales, your whole job is to free up that person's time. If it's you, free up your time.   To allow you to spend more time doing sales. Otherwise, that's kinda like buying a Ferrari, paying for it, and then you're using it to plow a field, as I usually say. That does not make sense. It doesn't make sense at all. Literally does not make financial sense.   All right. Cool. So that's today's episode. So if you've ever felt stuck or stagnant and you want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgo.com for a free training on how to get unlimited free leads. Text the word leads to 512-648-4608.   Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners by going to doorgrowclub.com. And if you want tips, tricks, ideas to learn about DoorGro's offers, subscribe to our newsletter by going to doorgrow.com slash subscribe. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on wherever you saw this. We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

Most agency owners probably haven’t thought much about shadow AI (the name for when employees use their personal ChatGPT, Claude, or Gemini accounts to do work). In fact, owners may be doing it as well. In this episode, Chip and Gini walk through what the risks are and how to respond without overreacting. The instinct to crack down is understandable but wrong. Employees are going to use their own tools regardless, often because personal accounts are better trained or more accessible than whatever the company has set up. The goal should be education, not elimination. Most employees don’t know that personal accounts default to feeding data into training sets, or that a single toggle can turn that off. That one fix alone is worth a conversation with your team. Vibe coding and a plain-language AI policy get discussed, in addition to educating your team. Gini’s team runs weekly micro-learning sessions to help people use AI as a thinking partner, not just a drafting tool. Both Chip and Gini advise that owners and employees who aren’t using AI meaningfully within the next year or two are putting their careers and businesses at risk. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You’re probably not going to stamp it out. So at a minimum, you need to educate employees, because a lot of employees don’t realize the risks in what they’re doing.” Gini Dietrich: “I also think that shadow AI is one thing, but there are plenty of people who are not using it at all. And I was actually kind of shocked to find that in my own organization.” Chip Griffin: “We need to avoid the knee-jerk reaction when you hear an episode like this, shadow AI, oh my God, I need to shut this down. You cannot have that reaction.” Gini Dietrich: “The real value is that AI helps you operate at a completely different level.” Resources The Birthday Dirge View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, think it’s appropriate that it suddenly got dark, in, in- Yeah. … in your office as we were trying to begin this recording- Mm-hmm … because we’re gonna be talking about being in the shadows. Gini Dietrich: Yes, we are. In the dark. But before we do that, happy birthday. Chip Griffin: Oh, thank you. Thank you. You’re welcome. I appreciate that. I thought maybe we’d escape that since- Nope … ’cause we were on hiatus during my actual- Nope … birthday month, so. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Ah, come on. Yeah. It was just a few days ago. Happy belated I guess. All right. Thank you. Especially by the time people hear this, but. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Well, nobody will really know, so. Gini Dietrich: I know. Chip Griffin: I, I, appreciate it, and I mostly appreciate that you’re not singing, so, Gini Dietrich: I can. Do you want me to? Chip Griffin: I do not. I- Okay, well- ‘Cause, ’cause isn’t, don’t you have to license “Happy Birthday,” I think? I think that’s- Gini Dietrich: Well, I have a different song. It’s a song that- Oh … the kids learned in third grade that we sing instead of “Happy Birthday.” Chip Griffin: Is, is this the dirge? Gini Dietrich: No. Chip Griffin: Oh. See, I like the birthday dirge. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know the birthday dirge. Chip Griffin: Oh, it, it, it’s, uh, it goes something like, you know, uh, another year closer to the grave or something. I mean, it’s very more… But, the- I wouldn’t- Our kids learned it, learned it at a kid’s party, you know, 20-some years ago. Oh, that’s so good. I’ll have to look it up and share it with you. It, or- I’ll look it, yeah. I’ll delete it … or maybe, maybe Jen can do that because, and maybe sh- b- maybe she can include a link to it, in, in the show notes, ’cause it is somewhat entertaining, but I, I don’t remember the lyrics, nor do I want to try to, to invent them or sing them even if I knew them. Gini Dietrich: All right, fine. Chip Griffin: But, no, the, the- Gini Dietrich: Maybe for my birthday. You have s- you have several months to, to learn it. You could sing it to me for my birthday. Chip Griffin: Well, more than several, but yes. Anywho, so moving on from that. We, are going to talk about the shadows, the deep, dark shadows of the PR world. No, we’re gonna be talking about, shadow AI, which is, in a lot of organizations, you have employees who are using their own ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, whatever accounts to do work. They are not using corporate accounts. A lot of them do not understand the implications of it. The employees do not understand the implications. The employers do not understand the implications. And I’ve seen it, either bite people or potentially bite people of late, so I thought I would raise it as something that, that owners ought to be thinking about in the current environment. Gini Dietrich: I will tell you, not to get anyone in trouble, but almost every one of our clients, and they’re big clients, people do that. Could be, and they’re doing it from their personal devices. It could be because it’s blocked at work. It could be because what they have at work isn’t sufficient. It could be because CoWork is significantly better than, Copilot. It, like, there are lots of reasons, but people will full on pull out their phone or their iPad and do it on their personal device at work all the time. Chip Griffin: It is incredibly common, and, from my perspective and what I advise owners is that you’re probably not going to stamp it out. So at a minimum, you need to educate employees- Yep … because a lot of employees don’t realize the risks in what they’re doing, and they haven’t set up any kind of a, a process to make sure that they’re, you know, doing it as intelligently as possible at least, if they’re- Right … gonna use their own accounts. And, look, I, mean, I, don’t necessarily think that, that it’s awful for them to be doing this. I wouldn’t try to eliminate it. But you do need to educate them because a, a lot of times when I talk with rank and file employees of agencies, they don’t realize that, for example, that their personal accounts, by default, all of the data leaks out for training purposes. And it’s in many cases, depending on which tool you’re using, as simple as a toggle to make- Yep … sure that that information- Yep … does not go straight into the training sets- Yep … of these providers. And that’s the default setting on your corporate accounts if you’ve got them as an agency, but it is not the default on most personal accounts. And so just that one change can make a big difference. But I have yet to talk to any individual employee using their individual account who knows that that’s even something they can or should do. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I agree with you. I think that having just a really easy AI policy is the right way to go because I don’t– I think you’re right. I don’t think you’re gonna stamp it out. I mean, heck, I use my personal one for lots of stuff too. Mostly because I trained it before we had the corporate account, and I don’t wanna go back and retrain what I’ve already worked, what I’ve already created. So, but we just created a one-page, like, bullet points AI policy that says exactly what you said, like toggle it off. If you’re gonna be vibe coding, here’s what you need to be thinking about. You know, all of the things. I think it’s probably 12 bullet points. It’s not a huge lift, but it just helps them understand. And one of the things that we did is we spent some time building the cowork Instance for the organization, and it has, you know, our OKRs and our plan and our vision and, you know, all of the stuff, our brand kit, all of the stuff. So it’s easier for, my team now, it wasn’t six months ago, but now it’s easier for my team to use the company one because it has all of that stuff in there and it’s already been trained. Chip Griffin: Yep. Yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, so I think there’s, this is a multi-stepped process. You know, part of it is the policy, part of it is education. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Part of it is you should have a standard corporate tool that you are using. It doesn’t mean that it’s the only one, but, it should be– If you do that, it will allow you to do a lot of the information sharing, skill sharing, things like that, that ensure the consistency across the organization and make sure that everybody doesn’t have to reinvent the wheel constantly. But I think the you brought up two things that I think are worth exploring more. One probably is a separate episode in addition to this, but the other, I think, makes sense within this context. The one to sort of put a pin in and come back to is your fear of moving from your personal one to the corporate one because of the lost, you know, memory and context and all of that kind of thing. And, I think that there is, I, I, think there’s a lack of knowledge in the agency community generally about how best to capture all of the, the knowledge and things that you’re developing alongside these AI tools and making it as portable as possible. So, you know, one of the things I’ve been focused on in recent months is really making sure that, that my second brain, if you will, in AI is portable across multiple tools. And so I’ve now built it so, for example, I have one brain that I share across both my Claude and ChatGPT accounts- Gini Dietrich: Yep. I do the same thing. Yep. Chip Griffin:… so that you have consistency, and, I think it’s worth sort of exploring that, maybe not in technical detail, but, you know, how you can share it amongst your own accounts, how you can share it more effectively with your colleagues and coworkers and that kind of thing. So I think that’s worth revisiting in more depth because I think there, particularly as we become more AI forward as agencies generally, that’s something that becomes increasingly valuable and increasingly important. But the, piece that, that I think really fits into this shadows discussion is the vibe coding, and we see a lot of agency employees doing vibe coding, which is fantastic. I am, I’m a huge advocate of it. I think that if you want to get ahead in professional services generally, in the agency world specifically, you need to learn how to do at least basic vibe coding. That said, I think people do not understand all of the risks and complexities associated with vibe coding. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And, so, there are a lot of basics that, that agencies need to be thinking about here, and again, it comes into that education and training piece in working with employees, because most of them don’t understand if you mess something up and you are not doing version control or keeping backups, you can be, you know, really up a creek without a paddle. Yep … and yes, you can reconstruct it in some fashion oftentimes by going back in the conversation, but it’s not simple. And because most people who are doing vibe coding today do not have any previous programming experience, they don’t understand these concepts like version control and being able to roll back easily and, all of the things that geeks like me who’ve been coding since, you know, the early ’80s get and understand. And, and, that Git reference, by the way, was for those of you who do actually know your coding stuff- … because it’s a great repository tool that most of you who are doing vibe coding should be looking into because it- Yeah … is really helpful- Gini Dietrich: Yep … Chip Griffin: in terms of making sure that when you have an oopsie, you can solve it and fix it easily. But a lot of people if, if they’re doing this on their own devices, they may not even have just regular backups of this stuff because maybe they’re saving their regular agency work to a Dropbox account or OneDrive or whatever you’re using. But whatever they’ve set up to use with Coworker or Codex or whatever, they may not have that in one of those directories that is by default syncing to the cloud and getting updated. And so you wanna make sure that you’re helping them understand that that needs to be part of the process, because how awful would it be if you just lost all of this work that you had been doing? And so much of what you do with Coworker, Codex is device specific, and you cannot access anywhere else. I suspect that will change over time. I suspect that, that those will become, you know, more cloud-like, and we’ve already seen Claude, for example, merging the chat and cowork functions somewhat in their app. Yep … and, so we’ll see a place where I think you can just share it across devices, but right now it is frustratingly difficult for those of us with multiple devices to manage. I’ve got two PCs and a laptop and other and, and so I’ve actually written my own systems for converting the code so that it all is accessible elsewhere. But if you don’t know how to do these things, you could be in a real world of hurt if your computer crashes and you’ve got no backups. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I will say that, not that I speak from experience or anything, but it only has to happen to you once, and then you learn very quickly how to make all of that happen. Because you’re right, I, I was vibe- I love to vibe code. It’s one of my favorite things to do, but the very first time I did it, I didn’t know I was supposed to do version control or any of that stuff. Right. I didn’t know anything about Git. I didn’t know any of it. I do now. Chip Griffin: Yep. And look, that’s, how most of us learned the hard way in the olden days of writing this code. You’re like, “Oh, shoot, I wish I had had a copy of that.” Yeah. You know? And, in the old days, our backups were printouts, right? Because you- Right … there was no way… Like, when I did computer coding on a cassette tape, you know, there was no real way to make a copy of that easily, so, you know, we would just, you know, hit print, and, you know, on a little dot matrix printer we’d have a copy of the code so we could retype it if we absolutely had to. Gini Dietrich: That’s so funny. Ugh … Chip Griffin: not ideal. A lot easier to do things today. Gini Dietrich: Not ideal, no. Chip Griffin: but, you know, those are the kinds of things, and, if we’re all going to become programmers of a sort, we need to be thinking about that. We need to be thinking about, how do you properly test and maintain some of this stuff that we’re creating? Because it’s super easy to vibe code the first version of something. It’s a lot harder to handle the maintenance that’s required on it, you know, when connections to data sources break or technology- Yep … evolves- Yep. Yep … or those kinds of things. Yep. Most, of the people who are vibe coding don’t do anything in terms of security testing of the, the code that they’re writing. And, if that vibe coded thing ties into other systems, which many times they do, you may have created, an opening that you’re not aware of into your back-end systems that could be problematic. And so these are all things that we need to increase the level of education about so that our teams are at least thinking about these things. I’m not saying they’re gonna solve them all. They’re not gonna… We’re still gonna have issues that crop up. But we’ve got to be doing more to try to educate owners, employees, and everybody else involved in the process. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I really think that starting with an AI policy is the right thing to do. Don’t make it overly complicated. Like, when we started, we had this big, like, AI policy legal packet. And I was like, “This is way too much. Way too much.” Like, people are not going to absorb that. So I used my AI to dumb it down, for lack of a better term, and, you know, really to highlight the things, and then I went through myself and said, “Okay, great. These, this is a good start. Now I need to add this, this, and this,” just based on how I see people using it. So, I also think that shadow AI is one thing, but there are plenty of people who are not using it at all. And I was actually kind of shocked to find that in my own organization, like, really? O-Okay. So we’ve done a little bit of, you know, we do a, we do micro-learning sessions every week. So we’ve done a little bit of AI micro-learning just to show people, like, it’s not just for a blog post draft or helping you refine an email. Like, it can h- it could be a thinking partner. It can help you with these things. And so we’ve been doing some micro lessons on that too to just help them understand that this isn’t gonna take your job. We still need you to do your work. We still need your brains for all of this, but this will make you more effective and more efficient. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Although I, I, have taken to becoming much scarier, and I’m telling people it is gonna take their job if they are not using it effectively themselves. Gini Dietrich: If they don’t use it. No, I agree with that. Chip Griffin: Yeah. But, I agree with you. Yeah. There are, there are a lot of folks in the agency community who are not using AI beyond very rudimentary use. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And, and I, I don’t think there are very many who aren’t using it at all, but there are a lot who are using it more like a, you know, a replacement for Google or something to, you know, give them a quick draft of a blog post or an email or something like that. And, you really need to be taking advantage of it at a much higher level if you want to be successful in really any kind of knowledge work moving forward. And- Yeah … and I think people have a relatively short window to get up to speed on this. I think we’re talking, you know, a year, two years tops. Gini Dietrich: If– Yeah, yeah. I think two years is being generous. Chip Griffin: And, I think if, if you are, if you are not, if a year from now you are not actively using AI every single day in a really intelligent way, I don’t know that you have a future. Gini Dietrich: I would agree with that. I would agree with that. And I think you have to use it, to your point, in a really intelligent way. I just answered, or I just had a conversation with a Forbes reporter who’s writing about, there’s a term for it… I can’t think of the term right now. There’s a term for you using it as a thinking partner, using AI as a thinking partner, and he was telling me that almost nobody does that, and I was like Really? Like, that’s the only thing I use it for is, you know, here’s what I’m thinking, poke some holes in it, play devil’s advocate, tell me, you know, what’s strong, what’s weak, what I need to think through more effectively. It has helped me with … I mean, I, I think I’ve mentioned before, I call it my co-CEO, and I’m like, “Okay, here’s today’s challenge. Here’s what I’m thinking. Here’s the documentation. Here’s the backup. Help me think this through.” And it’ll be like, “What about this, and what about that?” And I’ll say, “Well, no, I think you’re wrong about this,” and, “What about that?” And, like, we have ongoing conversations about things, and I don’t … From what he was saying, like, almost nobody uses it that way, and I think that is the real value because it helps you operate at a completely different level. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, you’ve got … You have to, and, it, feels weird, but you have to treat these tools as if they are actual employees, consultants, whatever you wanna call them. And, it, it absolutely feels weird to anthropomorphize a chatbot. And, certainly there are ways to, to go way overboard, and y- you know, you hear these, you know- Gini Dietrich: You’re not gonna fall in love with it Chip Griffin: these really, really weird stories of, of what people have done. And, you can sort of … You know, the more time you spend with them, you s- you can kinda understand how it, you know, for the right personality, maybe it kind of veers down those- … creepy paths. I’m not encouraging that. No. I’m not encouraging that. Gini Dietrich: No, no. Chip Griffin: But, but you’re absolutely right. You have to be having meaningful conversations about the work that you do, your strategies. They are incredibly good at poking holes, incredibly good at helping you to think through things. I mean, I, have spent probably, I wouldn’t say an inordinate amount of time, but a lot of time having it challenge me. I have Claude interview me on a regular basis on different topics so that it can build its knowledge, because I’ve built a whole second brain operating system kind of thing. Yep, yep. I’ve had it mine through, and, maybe, this is another episode at some point where you and I can talk about some of the systems that we’ve put in place as examples, because I know from our previous conversations there’s some overlap, but also different ways that we do things. But you know, I, I’ve got 20-plus years of, a, a digital footprint, and AI is great at mining through that. And so I’ve had it do that so that it can, it knows more about me. And so when it pushes back, it pushes back with specific examples, and it will say, “Well, when you did this in, you know, 2007, you know, this was the decision you made. You know, why isn’t that relevant here?” Or things like that. And it’s weird at first, but, you’re ne- you wouldn’t even find an employee who could do that because none of them in, in all likelihood have been with you for 20 years. Yeah. And so having that available to you is something that you just should not be passing up, and we want to encourage our employees who probably don’t have a 20-year footprint like we do to be trying to find ways to do it, and we want to try to facilitate them using all of the tools at their disposal. So we certainly need to avoid the knee-jerk reaction when you hear an episode like this, shadow AI, oh my God, I need to shut this down. I can’t- No … I can’t have employees doing– You cannot have that reaction. Mm-mm. And you should not have, while you should have an AI policy, it should be simple- Yeah … and clean. We can’t go back to the early days of social media policies that, that organizations tried to put in place. And again, we’ve been around a long time, so we’ve seen this movie before. And some of the social media policies that people were putting in place 20 years ago were absolutely bonkers and unnecessary. And I fear that we’ll see some of the same thing on the AI front. Yes. And part of this, by the way, is, with all due respect to our lawyer friends, sorry, Sharon, don’t talk to your lawyer first about this. You can talk to your lawyer about it, but, lawyers are naturally risk-averse, right? And so if you, if you put this in the hands of your lawyer, particularly if it’s not someone like Sharon who has deep experience in the agency world, they’re gonna sit down and they’re gonna say, “Oh, you need to say no to this, and this, and this, and this.” And all of a sudden, nobody’s able to even use AI in a meaningful way. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. Chip Griffin: And so you, you’ve got to try to put reasonable safeguards in place, reasonable policies, but I think the most important is the education piece. Yes. If you educate people, they are much more likely to make the right decision. It’s not guaranteed, but it’s more likely, and right now we’re at a place where we’re not doing the right level of education of our teams. And part of that is because a lot of owners don’t actually know a lot of what we’re talking about. I mean, I think, you know, you and I- Yep … are certainly at the leading edge- Yep … for a lot of folks in the agency community. We need to get more people at that same level and let it flow through to their teams to make sure that we really are leveraging this technology for all that it can do. Because it, I mean, I, I have n- I have not been this enthusiastic about a piece of technology in the world of PR and communications at least since the beginning of the World Wide Web in the mid-’90s. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I agree with you. And, like, the– I know I’ve said this before, but the amount of work and the productivity that I’ve been able to achieve, I honestly don’t know how I did my job without it. It’s, it is, it’s next level. And you know, there are some weekends where I’m so excited about something that I’m working on, it might be vibe coding or something else, that I will literally sit in front of my computer all weekend and just, like, in the zone because I’m so excited about it. So I think that there’s a big opportunity here for you to explore and to understand and to change the way that you do your business, run your business in a really fun and effective way. Chip Griffin: Well, and that’s probably yet another ep- episode topic, going forward in, in trying to figure out how you invest your time in AI, because it is, it is just as easy to go down unproductive rabbit holes because- Yeah … they are fun. Sure. Right? And so I, I often find myself sitting there saying, “Do I really need to build this? Is this- … is this really helpful?” You know, I… and it, it, reminds me a little bit of, woodworking, which is something that I’ve done for- Yeah, yeah, yeah … for many, many years. But, like many woodworkers, I have probably built more things for my shop than I have to use in my house, right? So you, you spend so much time, you know, building workbenches and cabinets and jigs and all of that kind of stuff, which are all really cool, but at the end of the day, they’re not the things that you, you know, it’s not the furniture or the built-ins or whatever that you can use around the house. And so we need to be careful that we don’t get so enthusiastic, that we’re only building for that. So making those decisions about where does AI actually help and where is it, you know, kinda using it for the sake of using it, is, is something to be paying attention to as well. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, totally agree. I love it. I’m, I’m a big fan. Love, love, love it. Love. Chip Griffin: And so we’ve, after our summer hiatus, we sat here and we said, “You know, we should’ve been spending more time thinking of topics to come up with.” And, and so instead we kind of pick a random topic to go with, and we’ve come up with multiple episodes, for future discussions, so. Gini Dietrich: I wrote them all down too. So they’re in our document, so we have- Chip Griffin: Out of the corner of my eye, I can see that our shared document- … has been, been being updated. I, I cannot update while we’re talking because I have one of those really loud clickety-clack keyboards. And so it would, overwhelm the audio here. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Because I, I, like the noisiest possible keyboard you possibly can have. So. I love it. Anyway, on that note, I, I think it’s probably a good time to, wrap up. We can come out of the shadows with AI. Maybe it will, you know, the storm will pass, in Chicago, and it will get a little bit brighter for you in your office as well. It still seems like it- Gini Dietrich: It’s like nighttime … Chip Griffin: it must be pretty dark there. Yeah, crazy. If you’re, if you’re not watching us on video, and you really should watch us on video, because it is so compelling to see us and not just listen to us. But it, it definitely looks dark there. So on that note, we will wrap up here. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: You… Did you forget who you were? There was, there was a long pause there. Gini Dietrich: It’s because you, there’s a delay with you. Chip Griffin: Oh, okay. That’s good to know. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. Chip Griffin: On that note, it depends.

Jon Zalar, founder of IWTG Consulting, joins to discuss broken blade bolts, cracked pitch bearings, loose root inserts, and early detection. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow Allen Hall: Jon, welcome back to the program.  Jon Zalar: Thanks for having me.  Allen Hall: Uh, last time I saw you, we were in Melbourne- Yep … at WOMA 2026, and that was a huge event. We know we’re gonna do it again next year in March three, the 3rd through the 5th, so you’re invited back, of course- I can’t wait … if you can make it. Yeah. Yeah. It’s gonna be, it’s gonna be a good time. A lot is happening in the blade world and in the wind turbine world more broadly. A lot of things we’re hearing right now are related to blade bolt connection, pitch bearing inserts still. A lot of that still happening in the United States. What is the current status of, uh, the blade connection issues in the US? I,  Jon Zalar: I feel like it’s a growing [00:01:00] issue, not super, super fast, but it seems to be getting a little worse. There’s, you know, more bolts breaking at that joint. Um, pitch bearing cracks are, seem to be pretty common. There’s different solutions for it, and then, you know, the root inserts are another thing that we’ve talked about before that seem to be happening more and more, or maybe more and more people are finding them ’cause they’re looking. Allen Hall: What are the first indications that you have a blade bolt or some sort of joint issue at the root of a blade? What can you see?  Jon Zalar: A bolt laying in the hub bouncing around. Um, you know, from like a– looking at it from, like, the sensors on the turbine, it’s really hard to tell unless it gets really bad. Uh, some of the OEMs have some analytics developed to kinda start to indicate if there is a aero change because there’s missing bolts or root inserts are coming out, and they’re using that as a way to go figure out which ones to go inspect first. Allen Hall: Really? Yeah. You think [00:02:00] the SCADA data will give you some indication that you have a, basically a little bit of a loose blade?  Jon Zalar: Yeah. I, I, I think because the number of turbines and the number of data points you have, I think there is a pretty good analytic out there right now.  Allen Hall: Wow. All right. I think a lot of our operators have not taken advantage of that. Is, is that just b- based on the high-speed data, SCADA data, or is it low-speed data you could see that same effect?  Jon Zalar: I believe it’s on the low-speed data as well, but I bet the high-speed data was used to kinda develop it.  Allen Hall: Wow. All right. So that’s a huge help to operators. Yeah. So what are you looking for if you’re looking through SCADA data, what would be the couple of markers there that say, “Hey, maybe we ought to go look up at the– in the hub”? Jon Zalar: I don’t know exactly what they’re using, but they would basically look for maybe an imbalance or looking for certain components that are being overworked.  Allen Hall: Oh, sure. Okay.  Jon Zalar: Yeah.  Allen Hall: So your pitch actuator may be getting a little bit overworked. It would seem like one of the places- I think that, yeah … that would get loaded, right? Jon Zalar: Mm-hmm.  Allen Hall: Okay. [00:03:00] And any vibration monitoring going on? Because it, it, uh, in some cases you’re– I’m hearing, like, millimeter gaps-  Jon Zalar: Correct. Yeah …  Allen Hall: between the blade and the pitch bearing.  Jon Zalar: So probably a combination of the ALC sensors, at least on a GE turbine, looking at that. But the PCH box also is looking at the tower vibration, so it could be a combination of all three. I don’t know the exact- Okay … details, but between all of that, I think there are some analytics that kinda say, “Hey, go take a look.” And then I think there’s some other companies that have- tools that go monitor it.  Allen Hall: Mm-hmm.  Jon Zalar: Dial indicators remotely or even, you know, people going up there with dial indicators to go kind of rotate the rotor and kind of see if there is gapping between the blade and the pitch bearing. Allen Hall: Is that a safe situation in your– from the gapping? I’ve heard this where they’ve basically took shims and they’re trying to measure this gap or some sort of dial indication. Is that a smart thing to do? Is it even reliable to do it that way? [00:04:00] Jon Zalar: I, I, I think there’s some reliability there. And like, you know, these are really big parts, right? So like a little bit of gap, it, it’s probably expected to a point, but growing gaps is where you should be a little more scared.  Allen Hall: So you’re– you would have to go do that quarterly, monthly, weekly? How, how often would you have to do it to see the progression? Because I’ve heard stories of, uh, a couple of weeks from nothing to hub crack to, “Oh, it took a year or more.” Jon Zalar: I think it depends on the issue. I think for– if you’re looking at that, the bolted joint itself between the root inserts and the, uh, bolts breaking itself, I, I think they’re doing about quarterly. Now, the pitch bearings inspections are also quarterly. They’re al- they’re, they’re leveraging the drone inspections for the blades, and they’re looking at the pitch bearings to see if they’re cracked, right? Uh, you guys are doing that too.  Allen Hall: Okay.  Jon Zalar: I think Coraly is doing a good job mitigating the risk, feels like.  Allen Hall: Wow. All right. [00:05:00] Yolanda, looking at pitch bearings, you’ve looked at a lot of drone images in your lifetime. Mm-hmm. How much can you see on drone images on pitch bearings? Can you see cracks and, or y- or do you see grease, which is a really indication that something is wrong in the bearing? Yolanda Padron: You can see grease. You can see the cracks pretty, pretty well. Yeah. The drone images are, are really high quality. Uh, but you did mention that it’s something that you’re seeing a lot more. Is it because there’s a lot more aging fleets, or is it a problem with a lot of the new turbines that are coming online? Jon Zalar: I, I think it’s an, I think it’s a more of a fatigue problem, so the aging of the fleet. And also, I think more people are looking at it, right? ‘Cause, like, initially the drones that were looking for blade cracks weren’t looking at pitch bearings, but then pitch bearings started cracking, so now they added that to whatever they buy off the drone companies, right? Go look at my pitch bearings, for example.  Allen Hall: Hmm.  Jon Zalar: So I, I think it’s a problem of the more you look sometimes, the more you find.  Yolanda Padron: Hmm.  Jon Zalar: Yeah.  Allen Hall: So we [00:06:00] have root insert issues, which are being addressed by a couple of different companies- Yes … uh, uh, with somewhat similar solutions. OEM is offering one right now also. Jon Zalar: I, I think there’s three solutions. There’s two uptower that are basically looking at ways to go fill the void between the root insert itself and the blade root. Um, and I– there’s another company that’s also more of a downtower solution where they’re actually, like, r- drilling out the root inserts and putting new ones in that are gonna last better, longer. Allen Hall: Okay. So the drilling out is, would be CNC onsite. Correct.  Jon Zalar: Yeah.  Allen Hall: And they’re based over in Europe. But th- the drilling out is a take the blade down, set it on the ground sort of- Yeah. Right … doing really fine machining on the, on the blade itself. So that, that’s a different, completely different insert that’s going into that-  Jon Zalar: Correct Allen Hall: new hole or- Yep … clean hole, right? So it’s a, just a, uh, totally different kind of product versus trying to inject [00:07:00] some s- sort of epoxy or resin into the, the void.  Jon Zalar: Right. Yeah. Uh, I mean, you would prefer to do it uptower. It’s gonna cost you less money.  Allen Hall: Sure.  Jon Zalar: But you wanna make sure you do it right, so I think, uh, I do foresee it being a combination of both solutions kinda going forward. Allen Hall: Is it dependent upon, like, how much damage has been already done, or what the fatigue w- uh, an estimate on what the fatigue life is?  Jon Zalar: I think it’s strictly on measurement perspective right now. So how much gapping you have, um, kinda determines what potential solutions you have.  Allen Hall: So the gaps aren’t big, right? So the, the gaps I hear are one millimeter is k- kind of sort of start a problem.  Jon Zalar: Mm-hmm.  Allen Hall: Three millimeters is, “I need to be making decisions.”  Jon Zalar: Yeah. So- That, that’s what I’ve heard, too. Yes.  Allen Hall: Three millimeters is about a eighth of an inch.  Jon Zalar: Mm-hmm.  Allen Hall: So it’s not a lot of m-  Jon Zalar: But you can see sunlight through it if you’re s- down there. Allen Hall: Okay. That’s not… Well, you should see. That’s not  Jon Zalar: good either. Yeah.  Allen Hall: Right. Okay. So in a, in a three millimeter situation then, you’re doing what? [00:08:00] Jon Zalar: You’re trying to decide if the uptower solutions are something you wanna go try, ’cause they’re still in the trial mode from my understanding or-  Allen Hall: Okay …  Jon Zalar: people are learning a lot. So I think when you get to that point, you’re calling some of those companies to say, “Hey, I have this issue. I got a couple blades with, you know, .3. Can you guy- you guys wanna come take a look at it, see if your solutions, if you guys wanna go use it or not?” And then I think the ones that get too bad, from my understanding right now, is they’re, they’re replacing the blades. Allen Hall: So they’re taking the whole blade down.  Jon Zalar: Yes.  Allen Hall: And what’s the thought process in that? Uh, versus drilling out the inserts and putting new inserts in. Is there just a composite degradation that’s happened around those joints that it just puts it at risk or, or you have actually aged the blade much faster than you would otherwise have done? Jon Zalar: I, I think they aged that particular connection too much. So I, I- Wow … either between the [00:09:00] fatigue or lack of epoxy resin, w- whatever the actual root cause is for that root insert coming out, when it gets that bad, it’s like you’re not gonna be able to inject enough To make it adhere  Allen Hall: You can’t de-age it. Jon Zalar: Correct.  Allen Hall: Right?  Jon Zalar: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Bring back the youthfulness of the blade. Wow. All right. And we have seen this worldwide. I know in the, in the States you hear about it all the time, but it, this seems to be not a US- Correct … problem.  Jon Zalar: It’s a worldwide problem, yes.  Allen Hall: Okay. So if, if it’s a worldwide problem, are there more solutions on the way? I know you talked about three of them already.  Jon Zalar: I have not heard of any other ones except those three as of today.  Allen Hall: Wow.  Jon Zalar: There could be other people working on it. I think there should be.  Allen Hall: So, yeah. You would think so, yeah. So we’ll, I guess we’ll eventually hear about it on the podcast. Usually people with technology will contact us. They might call,  Jon Zalar: yeah. They might call you, they might call you tomorrow.  Allen Hall: Sure, they may. So that leads to sort of a subsequent issue, which I think is getting grouped together. So the [00:10:00] hub crack, pitch bearing crack, root insert pullout issue is also discussed with blade bolts being broken.  Jon Zalar: Correct.  Allen Hall: Are they related or are they separate engineering problems? Jon Zalar: If you look at them individually, you’d probably come up with some separate answers, but if you combine them all together, you kind of start looking at is there too much loading happening in the leading and trailing edge of the blade? ‘Cause the hub cracks, the root inserts, and the blade bolts, from my understanding, are happening at those two highly loaded areas of the, the blade or that whole rotor connection. So I mean, I do feel the root cause is probably a little higher loads than anticipated.  Allen Hall: I think everybody’s talked about when they’ve done the injection method and the drilling method, all they’re discussing is leading edge, trailing edge.  Jon Zalar: Yes.  Allen Hall: And how– It’s a question of how many- Correct … are you gonna replace. So th- [00:11:00] that’s, those are the two highly loaded spots on the bolted connection.  Jon Zalar: Correct.  Allen Hall: And that’s where blade bolts are also breaking or, or the bolts breaking elsewhere around the periphery?  Jon Zalar: I don’t have all the data, but what I had seen, it’s very similar areas.  Allen Hall: So if you don’t pull the insert out, you’re then loading the bolt. Cr- Right It’s one or the other, right? Right. Yeah. So the, the, the load path is the load path, so it’s coming through the insert into the bolt. Bolt’s carrying it into the pitch bearing. Pitch bearing’s carrying it into the hub.  Jon Zalar: Correct.  Allen Hall: Hub carrying it downtower. So eventually, one of those, uh, links in the chain is- The weakest. Yeah … is, is the le- is the weakest. What is it about blade bolts that is so dangerous? We hear– we walk onsite to an O&M building, there are signs saying, you know, “Pay attention for loose bolts. Look around on the ground for loose bolts.” We’re gonna– and as electrical engineer, like, “Whoa.” Bolts should not be falling out of this tower. What i- what is that sort of sequence where a [00:12:00] bolt would escape from the nacelle?  Jon Zalar: So let’s just use one bolt. One bolt breaks, falls in the hub, bouncing around, doing some– potentially doing some damage inside the hub. And ’cause these turbines, you don’t need to go out there every day ’cause they do run pretty good, right? Right. You just do your regular maintenance. And if you don’t really know about that, ’cause, like, it bounces around for a while, then it usually gets, like, lodged behind a, uh, either center box or pitch cabinet or actually in the front sometimes. Kinda don’t know it happened. But, you know, frees itself up, keeps bouncing around, it, it could escape through the hatch covers ’cause, you know, people have to get into the hub anyway. And I’m sure a lot of people listening here that have sites, like, you know, probably found some bolts laying on the ground, which is a little scary.  Allen Hall: Right. So is, is the busting the hatch opening levers? I know there, there’s a couple different ways to get into that hatch. Yeah. But, uh, is it just completely busting the hatch? Yeah. So it’s– [00:13:00] okay. So you see a– so if you see a loose hatch panel, you have an issue. You probably gotta be careful about coming up on that turbine?  Jon Zalar: Potentially. A lot, a lot of hatches are, you know, not always maintained well.  Allen Hall: Right. I’ve seen them, I’ve seen loose ones, yeah.  Jon Zalar: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Okay. So that, that would be a sign that– but though if, if you’re approaching a turbine, one look on the ground. And Yolando, you, you’ve seen a lot of turbines. So are you, are we looking on the ground and seeing what’s around the turbine before we approach the turbine now? Yeah. Just, just a sanity check?  Yolanda Padron: Yeah. Be aware also of what’s happening on site, right? Because if it’s some- if it’s a problem on site, you need to be extra careful when you’re approaching any turbine there. Uh, is it something that people maybe should start thinking about implementing, like, a sensors earlier on than when they’re seeing the issue actually happen?  Jon Zalar: Yeah. I, I, I think that’s a potential, ’cause it, the quicker you catch it, the less damage you’re gonna do, and it also reduce the risk of [00:14:00] it, um, falling out of the hub And I’ve worked with a couple of my, uh, customers for some, like, potential ways to detect it. Still kind of trialing it right now. But I, I do think there’s gonna be some benefit from a safety reduction, but also from a strictly a damage. ‘Cause, like, you get a couple bolts bouncing around there, and you bang up some cabinets or some pitch motors, that’s expensive and hard to go fix.  Yolanda Padron: Yeah, we were talking about it earlier too. Like, it goes down, it can hit a transformer, it can hit, like, a truck or someone.  Jon Zalar: Chance of it hitting someone. Yeah. I mean, I don’t care what hard hat you have on, it’s not gonna do anything.  Yolanda Padron: Yeah.  Allen Hall: So what kind of sensor should you be putting onto the turbine if you don’t have access to the SCADA data or you don’t know what the correct algorithm is to suss out there’s something wrong up there? But a, a bolt breaking is not gonna be something that a SCADA would even pick up, I don’t think. One bolt out of the whole- Yeah. No.  Jon Zalar: No way. Okay. I mean, there’s a– I think there’s, like, [00:15:00]one company looking at more of a, like, mechanical way to, like, prevent the bolt from coming out. I forgot the name of it. Allen Hall: Okay.  Jon Zalar: Um, and then what I was looking at was more of a, like, you know, microphone type detection to kind of listen for that.  Allen Hall: It would make a lot of noise.  Jon Zalar: Yeah. It seems like it works. It, um, yeah, still more development needed on my end.  Allen Hall: So- The engineer in me was, is saying, “Why are we not putting strain gauges on bolts?” I picked on the leading and the trailing. It’s like right dead center there to look at, even if it’s just two strain gauge bolts to see what the loads are.  Jon Zalar: So like there are s- there are bolts that are, or that are made with the strain gauges built in that you can use to go, you know, monitor that. But you also need to understand like what was the design intent. So unless you’re working with the OEM, you don’t really know what you’re seeing is good or bad. You just say, “Oh-  Allen Hall: You just see a number.  Jon Zalar: Yeah. Right. I mean like, and if you install, I don’t know, four, you’d be like, “All right. Leading and trailing edge are higher [00:16:00] than the other two.” Well, yeah, it’s supposed to be, but like is a 10% difference expected or not expected? Allen Hall: Is that something where if you’re, especially if you’re in a full service agreement, and a lot of these turbines are- Yeah … for the first couple of years, if you were to do that, it’s something you would just say to the OEM, “Hey, this is, these are the loads we’re seeing from the strain gauges on these bolts. Does this make sense to you?” Or, or would an OEM just not even respond to that kind of inquiry?  Jon Zalar: I mean, I think it’s all about relationship with the OEM. I, I, I think  Allen Hall: it- I think they would wanna know.  Jon Zalar: I have a feeling they probably are looking.  Allen Hall: Okay.  Jon Zalar: I mean, ’cause I mean they have the test turbines too that they probab- that, that I know they have instrumented heavily. Allen Hall: Yeah. So they, they’re probably getting at least some feedback. Th- that’s the problem. Yeah. And you worked on the other side, right? I have. So you worked for an OEM doing the RTAs. The first problem is you don’t have data, so now you gotta go get the data.  Jon Zalar: Correct.  Allen Hall: And that data is not available tomorrow. No. ‘Cause you’re gonna have to go run some sort of design of experiment to go figure out if [00:17:00] there is even a true problem or even what the root causes could be.  Jon Zalar: And it, and it’s expensive to go instrument a blade and get the data back at the right speed and connected to the turbine data. I mean, I rem- I, I used to say it’s about like 300 to 500,000 to go put a couple gauges on a blade just with all the equipment you need to get the data correct. Allen Hall: To get the right data.  Jon Zalar: Get the right data at the right frequency connected to the controller. It’s, it’s very expensive.  Allen Hall: Wow. Okay. Yeah. I, I don’t, I don’t see a lot of operators doing that.  Jon Zalar: And especially connecting it to the operating data, right? So like if you go put a strain gauge and I don’t know, you’re curtailed, you’re only making, I don’t know, a megawatt- Doesn’t matter. And if you don’t know what the turbine’s doing and you’re looking at this, like, strain gauge data, it’s really hard to correlate anything.  Allen Hall: So you need a full suite of data. Yeah. That includes weather data- Yeah … at some level, right? Gust winds and- Oh,  Jon Zalar: yeah …  Allen Hall: average wind speed. You need the anemometer. You need which, which way [00:18:00] the n- cell’s pointing. Y- uh, you would need a lot of information- And what the controller’s- … to even suss it out …  Jon Zalar: and what the controller’s doing, right? Right. ‘Cause, like, every turbine, the controller’s trying to, like, you know, balance the rotor the whole time. It’s trying to, you know, micro pitch depending on what the winds are doing. And if you don’t know what all that stuff’s doing, like, it’s really hard to correlate a strain gauge measurement to is that bad or not.  Allen Hall: It’s a complicated problem.  Jon Zalar: Yes. That’s why RCAs take, you know, a long time, and they’re not done in two weeks.  Allen Hall: No, they’re done in a year.  Jon Zalar: Yeah.  Allen Hall: Typically, or longer. So what should an operator be thinking about now? If, if we s- get our drone images back, we’re scanning through them like, “Oh, there’s a crack” What am I doing next besides calling you and connecting to your LinkedIn page?  Jon Zalar: So right now with the pitch bearing crack, um, some of the OEMs are providing stiffener plates to put over the crack and try to run it. Allen Hall: So that’s a doubler plate, basically. A double plate. Doubler  Jon Zalar: plate, yes. [00:19:00] Allen Hall: Yeah. Okay. So even in a, in a crack scenario, that pitch bearing, if given mechanical support, can run like that?  Jon Zalar: That’s my understanding, yes. That, that potentially could run for some period of time. I don’t know if it’ll make it 20 years or not, but it’ll buy you time for sure. Allen Hall: Does that involve a crane to do that work or is that just… My recollection, that was in pieces, like there, it’s not a ring, it’s a, a couple of pieces that you’d be able to bolt on without taking the-  Jon Zalar: No, it’s a- … blade down … it’s a, it’s a single piece that-  Allen Hall: It’s like a single casting kind of thing.  Jon Zalar: Right. And I, I think you need some like small crane, like a jig crane or one of those-  Allen Hall: Just to support the blade while you do it? Jon Zalar: And to go put it in, right. Okay. Yeah, I don’t think, you’re not taking the blade off. You’re not taking the  Allen Hall: blade down.  Jon Zalar: Correct. Yeah. It’s, it’s done with the blade up there.  Allen Hall: Okay.  Jon Zalar: You’re putting new, putting longer studs in and putting the plate on.  Allen Hall: So first step is let’s get the joint reinforced. Right. That’s the easy first step.  Jon Zalar: Right. Although there has been some cases where since [00:20:00]you’ve put that stiffener plate on, the loads get spread out to the end of the plate, and then you- Sure … you could see cracks there.  Allen Hall: Okay. All right. So the loads- It, that- … have to go somewhere …  Jon Zalar: loads have to go somewhere. That’s, that is a bottom line. Allen Hall: All right. So you’re just changing where the load path is, so you have to be cognizant of that. Okay. Sure. Fine. But if you have, uh, especially in the United States, you don’t have 10 of these turbines, you have 50, 100- 100 … 200, 300 of these things, or thousands as it, as it turns out. Are there simple solutions that can be applied to, just to give me a sense, like that turbine’s having a problem, but the one next to it’s not, and, and just, just from a maintenance spin standpoint where I’m not just blanketing everything and trying to do everything to all these turbines at once, how do I, how do I manage this? Jon Zalar: I, I think it’s like being very observant. So like, you know, making sure you’re looking at the pitch bearings from the drone images, right? Um, also talking [00:21:00] to your maintenance people like, “Hey, are, are you finding a bunch of broken bolts? Like, what positions?” Like, you know, if I was back at the OEM, I would like to have as much data as possible on this issue. Like how many bolts are, when did you find them, what positions? A lot of times we, when I was there, like we would not get all that information, so it’s like really hard to run an RCA without that information.  Allen Hall: Sure. Yeah, where did this bolt break in the ring?  Jon Zalar: Right.  Allen Hall: Could tell you a lot. Is it just a b- bad lot of bolts, or is it something more load related? Jon Zalar: Correct.  Allen Hall: Wow. Okay.  Yolanda Padron: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point, too, to make sure that you’re connected with like every stage of the operations. ‘Cause I know that everybody’s obviously really, really busy on a wind farm, but it’s really common for like an engineer to have certain data and the site team to just be running around and having a lot of data, but maybe they don’t realize that, oh, it’s important to know how many bolts per tower are coming down. Jon Zalar: Correct. Yeah  Allen Hall: That’s a lot of work  Jon Zalar: It definitely-  Allen Hall: It’s a tremendous effort if you’re gonna [00:22:00] go after this problem and, and solve it RCS  Jon Zalar: are hard. They  Allen Hall: are. Yeah. All of it. Yeah. Machines are complicated today. There’s a lot of computer-driven s- things about them, and then you have these loading issues, and you have composite materials. Th- there’s just, y-  Jon Zalar: you got to get- It’s a very complex  Allen Hall: It’s a machine, right? Yeah. It’s a complex machine. So how do people reach out to… You’re, you’re the head of IWTG, which is based in South Carolina, but you do consulting worldwide. Yes. And, and you are a huge resource because you understand the complexities of these problems. How do people get ahold of you and, and get something started if they have a, a, a blade bolt issue or an insert issue or a cracked pitch bearing? Where do they start?  Jon Zalar: They can send me an email, jzalar@iwtgconsulting.com.  Allen Hall: Okay. And you have a great LinkedIn page, so you can connect with you on LinkedIn.  Jon Zalar: Yes. Yeah, I have one  Allen Hall: of those. Yes. Or you could just come to WOMA in [00:23:00]2027. Yeah. You can. You can meet John there and, and arrange everything there. So John, it’s great to see you, and thank you for coming up. We, uh, we’re recording this at the world headquarters of Weather Guard Lightning Tech, and, uh, John just lives down the street in, in, in US terms. Yeah. So it’s, it’s great to have John come and visit us up here in North Carolina. So John, thank you so much for joining us.  Jon Zalar: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

On this episode, my guest is Lewis Winks, a researcher, writer and campaigner who specialises in nature connection, cultural and behavioural change, and has a background working in the environmental and outdoor education sector. He joins us on behalf of the Right to Roam campaign as well as the Stars Are For Everyone campaign, the latter which he helped spearhed to defend wild camping rights on Dartmoor.Since 2021, Right to Roam has been organising peaceful trespasses into some of the vast areas of countryside from which the public are currently excluded. They follow the tried and tested access code which governs Scotland's right of responsible access, respecting privacy, crops and nature – all while seeking to leave a positive trace and practising deep care for the natural world: a concept they call Wild Service. Their vision is of a future countryside in which people not only enjoy the physical, mental and spiritual benefits of nature but serve as its guardians too.Show Notes* Right to Roam's origins (Guy Shrubsole & Nick Hayes)* The Stars Are For Everyone (Dartmoor National Park)* The right to wild camp in England* The commons and the enclosures* Taking back trespass* The shadow places of fortress conservation* Wild service* Levellers and landlordism* Deifying dispossession* The community right to buy* International solidarityHomework* Right to Roam UK - Website - Instagram - Twitter - BlueSky* Wild Service (Book)* The Book of Trespass* Who Owns England?* Val Plumwood* Survival International* S3 #2 | Decolonizing Conservation in Africa & Beyond | Fiore Longo (Survival International)* S5 #5 | Fortress Conservation in the Congo w/ Martin Lena & Linda Poppe (Survival International)* International Land CoalitionTranscriptChris: [00:00:00] Welcome, Lewis, to the End of Tourism Podcast.Lewis: Good to be here. Hello, Chris.Chris: Yeah. I'd like to thank you for your willingness to join me today on behalf of your comrades and colleagues at Right to Roam, as well as those of The Stars Are For Everyone. And I'd like to begin by asking you where you're tuning in from today and what the world looks like there for you.Lewis: Well, I'm currently in South Devon, where I live in the southwest of England. And I live in a town called Totnes, which is just on the edge of Dartmoor National Park. But the town that I live in has grown up around a river - the River Dart. And so that's a short walk from where I live.And, yeah, obviously, the river's shaped this place, from its headwaters up on Dartmoor, all the way down to the kind of rugged coast. So, I feel very lucky that, not far from where I live, there's a whole range of [00:01:00] landscapes, but not without their challenges.Chris: Yeah, certainly. I remember, not just a few years ago, I was there in Totnes, visiting for the first time, and I had the great honour of getting to explore Dartmoor as well, in a place not too far from where some of my old ones are from, in Devon, in Exeter.Lewis: It's a great place. I mean, Dartmoor is, on global standards, a very tiny national park, really, but I think for people like myself that live near it, to have this kind of expansive space to be able to walk for days sometimes in this sort of landscape, seemingly without boundaries, without walls, without fences, is amazing, in what feels like quite a contained landscape, a kind of patchwork of fields and enclosures. And so, a lot of people are drawn to Dartmoor because of its openness. But that also is an issue, I think. A lot of us here that live in this area are very much working on ecological [00:02:00] issues and challenges, and lots of those are found up in the national park.Chris: Well, would we all be so lucky to have such spaces to walk and roam. On that point, I'd like to ask you if you'd be willing to offer our listeners a little bit about what your organisation, The Right to Roam (in the UK), does there and your role in the organisation.Lewis: Sure, yeah. Well, the Right to Roam campaign, I mean, we've been established only for a few years in our current format, really. We were born out of the pandemic. We were formed principally by two of the co-founders of the campaign, Guy Shrubsole and Nick Hayes, who had both written books at the time and sat together around a kitchen table in 2020.Nick had written a book called The Book of Trespass, which kind of brought into public conversation this kind [00:03:00] of idea that there are places we are not supposed to be and not allowed to go, and challenging the kind of “why,” asking that question of, “Why is this? What's the historical context for our exclusion from landscapes? And through a series of adventures and walks into landscapes, he challenged that in his book. And it's an amazing primer, really, I think, for something that a lot of us take as a given, which is that we live in the corridors, really, between these vast estates here in England and in Wales, and we're excluded from much of the land. And so, it was quite a game-changing book, really, to sort of start to question that kind of assumption, that if you step off those narrow corridors, you are trespassing.And then in the meantime, Guy had written a book called Who Owns England?, asking questions of, “ Who does the land belong to? Who owns the title deeds? And really, most of us don't know. I mean, the government doesn't even really know who owns lots of land. And so, Guy embarks on this project, which he's been working on now [00:04:00] for the last decade or so, to try to find out and try to get more transparency, and really to bring about more democracy in how land is managed and how decisions are made, and really who has a stake in the land in England.And so these were kind of natural collaborators, really. And they sat around this table, and they formed this campaign called Right to Roam, which was really just to ask a simple question, which is, “Why do we not have a right of access to land in England?” And to call for new legislation for greater rights of access so that people can feel they have a greater stake in the landscapes around us.So we're a small team. We're a very much a grassroots campaign. We're not backed by big funders. We don't have any office space. We're just distributed across England, Wales and Scotland. And then, there are just six of us in the kind of core team. But we also have a network of almost [00:05:00] 20 local groups of people who are doing just amazing active work on the ground within communities to push for access reform.And we're funded by about 650 of those supporters who just give a small amount every month. So we're really just beholden to the people that are pushing for these kinds of changes. And we think we're getting somewhere. The conversation is shifting, socially and politically. We've still got somewhere to go, but we're hoping to bring about that change in law before too long.Chris: Hmm. Thank you, Lewis. And what drew you personally to the organisation?Lewis: Well, I live, as I said, down in Devon, and one of the things that happened back in 2022, was that one of the larger landowners in Dartmore National Park decided that he was gonna challenge this historic right that we have here, which is very unusual in England - the right to sleep out under the [00:06:00] stars, the right to wild camp, out in this kind of amazing landscape of Dartmoor.So, this landowner, Alexander Darwall, took the national park to court, and I was one of a few people who got together in the early days of that court case and said, “Right, we need to campaign on this. We need to stand up for these historic customary rights that have existed here and that have given so many people, these beautiful life-shaping experiences over generations.” And he was trying to snub them out. And so we thought, “let's campaign on this.”We set up a campaign called “The Stars Are for Everyone,” to protect those rights, but also to kind of say, “ Well, isn't it just mad that these rights only exist in this tiny corner of England? Shouldn't they exist also elsewhere?”Our intention right from the beginning of that campaign was to transform a court case that was about defending a set of rights into something which was really about taking a giant leap forward and putting in place something much [00:07:00] better for people in the future. And over the course of three years, that campaign was really dynamic, creative, and brought together loads of people.We actually lost the right to wild camp in early 2023. The landowner was successful in overturning that right in the High Court. And just one week after that court decision, we got together with three and a half thousand people up on quite a remote part of Dartmoor, probably one of the biggest land rights protests that we've seen since the 1930s in England. And, the voices of those people were really just... I mean, the ripples went out far and wide. I mean, we were sort of met with international support and interest. And, politically, overnight, it changed the conversation on access in England.And, really to fast forward to the present day after two more court cases, including it being escalated to the Supreme [00:08:00] Court, unanimously in the Supreme Court, the judges agreed that the case should never have been brought. And actually, then, we were able to reassert those rights as they had already existed.And so, not only have we got those rights back, we are now in a much better position, we think, to call for those rights elsewhere. And so my campaigning with the Right to Roam campaign really was kind of came out of this campaign for wild camping, to sleep under the stars.Chris: Mm-hmm. Wow. Wow, I remember, I think that was probably the thing that really drew me, for the first time, to the organisation and the work that you and your team are doing there in England, was through the social media awareness that the storyteller Martin Shaw was bringing to that campaign. Really amazing. And so, I wish nothing but blessings upon your feet and your work. It's incredibly important, and perhaps, a kind of [00:09:00] pioneering way of bringing this kind of organising and this kind of awareness to other places in the world where such access is also needed.But before we dig deeply into that work, I'd like to perhaps offer a little bit of context for our listeners in terms of the history of access in the UK to what is often referred to as “the commons.” And so, I'm wondering if you would be willing to offer a bit of historical background about what we mean when we talk about “the commons” in the English language and the history of the enclosures of the commons, that, for English people, is a kind of history that is all too well known, but for the rest of the world might be obscure.Lewis: Hmm. Well, sure. I mean, the commons, I think it's fair to say that a lot of people in England, really, this is not part of our lexicon, and our understanding [00:10:00] of the land.And, I think that demonstrates really just how effective the loss of commons has been here, is that there's not a broad understanding of what they were or what they are. But the commons really are... I mean, we're talking about a form of governance, a form of collective stewardship and governance for a place that transcends ownership. Commons are about how we relate to a place, and the rights that go with that place. And so, if we look at kind of property rights today, often those property rights exclude anybody who doesn't have their name on the title deed of the property.But yet, that's not always been the case. And certainly, we can still see today in England, and elsewhere globally, systems that acknowledge rights of others, and not just humans, but also kind of more-than-human rights. So in England, if you've gone back to the 1500s, [00:11:00] half of England or thereabouts, (it's difficult to be precise with this) would've had some form of common property understanding, or a kind of tapestry of rights that went with it. And that might have been rights to take firewood and fuel from land to dig peat, to graze animals, to put your pigs out to pannage for acorns. And these rites would've been particular to the landscapes that they were in. So, commoning rights were not the same everywhere. They were responsive to the wider kind of contexts, and today that figure is more like 3% of England. So, a diminishment of the commons in England has been part of our history here, and also part of the history which has affected almost the entire globe as well through colonial activities. But in England, really, this kind of experiment in sort of uprooting and unearthing cultures [00:12:00] that are deeply tied to the land was almost entirely effective at removing people's stake in land and in shoring up the rights of property owners.So, our commons, as they did exist, were fundamental to communities, were fundamental to how people sought to make a living, but also there were other things within that because commoning was about being on land that you didn't own. So with that came other things, which perhaps were taken for granted, which today we might call “recreation,” “being idle under a tree, watching the sunset”, and having those kinds of experiences. Now, we've kind of partitioned them off and put them into national parks and kind of put them in our holiday time, and things we might do when we're on vacation as tourists. But actually, for commoners, presumably, people were spending their time with the pigs out to pannage, thinking about other things, in conversation, meeting their neighbours under trees, doing things which were convivial.And so, [00:13:00] the erasure of the commons in England, and the enclosure acts, which sort of set about to diminish the commons and put them more firmly into private ownership, was also about a loss of community and people's stake in landscapes and also their ability to kind of relate to one another.But I should say as well that this obviously was very intentional. This was about looking at landscape through a kind of lens, a particular form of extraction, to take money from the land. It was also about control. It was about taking people, who, through that particular lens of industrialisation, seemed to be kind of labourers, their worth was kind of in the factories, it was not out on the land. And through mechanisation, as well, obviously, this was accelerated.In the early days of the enclosures, there were anti-enclosure acts in England that sought to try to prevent some of the steamrolling over of what felt like a kind of a deep-rooted culture. But by the [00:14:00] 1600s, those anti-enclosure acts were pretty much repealed, and with them, any kind of opportunity to get back those commons was lost.Loads and loads of rebellions took place to try to prevent that. And it's really interesting to look back in English history at the richness of rebellion and how it was kind of linked to how people relate to land. Looking at this today, it's sort of fairly plain to see that there's a disconnection between people and place. And I think that that kind of keenness to reconnect is a really vital ingredient for how we can kind of push back against some of the more damaging systems that we see around us.But people were rioting against the loss of rights to be able to put pigs out amongst woods that were being enclosed for the private laws, hunting rights. And there were many, many rebellions which took place by poachers, by people that were kind of deemed to be [00:15:00] poachers, who were kind of subject to some of the most harsh laws against them. And actually, a lot of the way in which criminality is portrayed now in England comes directly from the fact that they were trying to clamp down on how property was being challenged by people that have been dispossessed from something that was seen as a common good.Chris: Wow. There's so much there in the way that traditional peoples in England previously would've stewarded the lands that they lived on, even though they didn't own them, per se, and how the enclosure of those lands also led to this degree of, I would say anyways, historically, tourism wherein, the longing to gather as a community or as a group of people, in a place in order to, as you said, even just sit idle under a tree, to learn about the place that one lives in, or other places. That tourism largely took up that mantle [00:16:00] as an industry, as a way of commodifying that human longing toward being together in a place, largely outside of strict work hours. But even during them as well. And of course, the history of tourism is such that, through the enclosures, there was a schism, as you said, that brought people into the towns and cities to work as workers, essentially, rather than stewards of land.And then their “leisure time” was also separated in order to find ways in which that longing could be fulfilled, but through the industrial means of bringing people in mass to the beach or to forests, to other lands.And we'll get to that in a moment, that notion of the kind of colonial and neo-colonial enclosures that today show up as national parks or reserves. But you did mention this rich [00:17:00] history of trespass in England. And on The Right to Roam website, it says that, “it's fair to say that none of the limited access rights established in recent generations has been won without the willingness of ordinary people to cross the lines of property.”And so, it seems to me that the work that Right to Roam is doing is picking up those anti-enclosure movements of previous centuries and bringing them into the contemporary milieu. And so, I'm curious how you imagine or how you think notions of trespass might be understood and utilised as forms of resistance to the enclosures or privatisation of common lands.Lewis: Well, trespass in England is part of civil law, so if you trespass, it's not criminal. It's not a criminal act. So the police can't be called, as long as you're not causing damage. So, in fact, it's just between you and the landowner.And I think one of the first things that we try [00:18:00] to do as a campaign when we're speaking to whether it's new groups, or people that are kind of joining us, is to say, well, actually in custom and in history, we have this right. We have this right to be on land, and that it's only really through a kind of spell that we've been put under this kind of narrative that we've been told that we don't have a right to land. That we don't go there. And so, one of the main forms of action that we take as a campaign is to trespass, is to cross those lines which feel like they're kind of physical lines when you look at a map or where you see a barbed wire fence. But actually, as soon as you cross them, they become quite arbitrary, but also political.And we try to politicise it as much as we can, because if we take it for a given that we're excluded, then we will just remain excluded. So, it's both empowering and also quite an undertaking really to trespass and to do that together is one of the most empowering things you can do as a group or as a community, to go to the places that we're told we don't [00:19:00] have a right to be, but yet when you go there, it suddenly doesn't really make sense that you are excluded.And actually, quite often, as a campaign, we're able to go to places and to learn more about them and to learn more about our landscapes just outside of the towns and cities that we live in, to feel more connected to them. And, in a lot of cases actually do work for the betterment of places as well.I mean, often we're kind of reporting illegal rubbish dumps or seeing where damaging, invasive ecological species have taken hold and or reporting pollution in rivers. And I think it is part of the work of our campaign to help people feel that they can be a part of these places.And as you've mentioned, this idea that tourism is this kind of leisure time activity that we do that feels quite extractive, actually. There's something that we can do, which is about giving back as well, and giving back to our communities. And, [00:20:00] so yeah, it's about crossing lines, and it's about kind of challenging the politics that play there, but it's also just simply about reclaiming something that has historically been a cement that's held communities together.And what we find, I think, is that across the political spectrum, in various sectors and quarters, people just see that as common sense. I mean, it's interesting being part of a campaign that is at once radical as well as being, actually, just people get it, and they want to support it. And that has really helped us, I think, make headway and make progress, because we think we make quite a good argument for why we need better access to land and why we need laws to support that. And we are receiving a good amount of support from many quarters.Chris: Thank you for illustrating that. I remember as a child in Toronto going into the valleys there and the [00:21:00] creeks, and there's, thankfully, a large system of public lands, but of course, there was some areas where you would see signs, and it says “no trespassing,” and you would see this quite a bit, more so as you left the city. And there was this kind of subtle, imposed, instilled sense in me as a child that, like, “okay, obviously I can't go here. But secondly, if I do, then I am not just a guest or a visitor, I'm a trespasser, I'm a criminal. Right?And so to return to this question of the way that governments in the last centuries have taken common lands from people and kind of converted them into what we imagined to be better, pristine environments by virtue of there being no humans.I'd like to broach this question with you because in our correspondence, you referred to, “the hidden damage done to landscapes, the displacement of damage [00:22:00] elsewhere in the name of conservation, creating pristine landscapes and how this plays out as a way to restrict land access as a rationale for exclusion, while we turn a blind eye to damage and exploitation.”You write, “we can see this on a smaller scale with regard to estate and large farms or intensive agriculture in the UK, as well as on a global scale through supply chains and trace both back to a colonial mindset.”And so, previously on the podcast, I've spoken with authors and activists in regard to conservation as a kind of neocolonization of land, both in Africa and in Asia, and we also see it in Scotland.And so, I'm curious how this shows up in the UK and in the Right to Roam's work. This notion that no humans means that somehow the ecologies of place are better off and that there seems to be hiding in these considerations, in these concepts, a kind of misanthropy, a kind of hatred [00:23:00] toward humans.Lewis: Yeah, I mean, conservation I think has been doing amazing work, has also been doing some quite troubling work, I think, over the years. There's no simple kind of response to this. Conservation by its very nature is about working in relationship with place, with people, and with the more-than-human world.And I think like any relationships, those can be difficult and also fulfilling and beneficial and sometimes both. I think conservation as a movement, if you take a historical lens on this and obviously know, looking at it through a cultural perspective, taking in place, people, and history, and thinking about it as well, not just as a kind of a single place-based concern, but also kind of more broadly on a global scale, how conservation has evolved.And it's both evolved out of a kind of a controlling mindset, but also out of a kind of almost a palliative desire to sort of ease [00:24:00] the suffering of the natural world. And I think that that, when we look at it like that, there's a kind of a deep trauma which conservation has been born from, which is that we've done such huge amounts of damage to other places, to other peoples, to our own homes, and our own landscapes here in England that our kind of desire to kind of remedy that is kind of caught up in a kind of traumatic relationship with place. And I think we've learned a lot and obviously come a long way from a kind of fortress conservation mindset, but I think that the kind of misanthropy, which has been present in conservation, still comes through sometimes.I mean, we work as a campaign with so many amazing people working on the forefront of conservation, who are working very hard to try to transform and challenge the sector that they are working within. [00:25:00] But it's kind of understandable that this history of exploitation and damage is kind of wrapped up with a desire to press the emergency button and say, “actually, we need to kind of take drastic measures here.” And for some people, that's led them down the path of wanting a very exclusionary take on how we manage these places and these landscapes.And I think that the other thing is that, what I was talking about in the correspondence that I sent to you, really, particularly inspired by the work of Val Plumwood, the amazing philosopher who took this kind of incredible view of conservation, linked it to what she called “shadow places.” The idea that actually, for every time that we create one of these kinds of islands of pristine habitat, whether it's through exclusion or whether it's through management, planning and whatever else, actually, there's a whole world of things that we displace, and we neglect to see.And we see that with our national [00:26:00] parks here in England. I think it's interesting that Dartmoor, my nearest national park, is actually, historically, it is a very managed and very industrial landscape, yet it's kind of like held up and revered as a place of ecological tranquillity.I mean, it's actually in quite a damaged state. But we see it more broadly, as well. We can see it through our supply chains in England and through food security, or what we might call food security, by basically exploiting other places, the minerals we use, the resources that we use.So many of them come from landscapes that don't have the same protections that we're sort of overlaying onto landscapes here in England. So I think that it is a complex question. I think the fact that we are dealing with the kind of fallout of empire and the colonialization of other places and our exploitation of them leads us back to this sort of issue of actually “ how do we repair our relationship with land, with people? [00:27:00] How do we come to this through a lens of collaboration between people and place that's not about, ‘this is for nature, this is for people'?”And I think, one of the most concerning things I've seen happening in recent years, is this sort of resurgence of a neocapitalist economy in the countryside that's sort of operating under the guise of wanting to protect, but actually is about excluding communities and excluding people. And some of the most amazing work that's happening in England and Wales on Rewilding is about including people and ensuring that there is a joined-up approach between people, place, and ecology.Chris: Thank you, Louis. Your professional background prior to working with Right to Roam was in outdoor and environmental education. And so I imagine that such work kind of flows fairly easily into raising awareness for public access to the commons. But it also seems to me that the [00:28:00] contemporary and commonplace relationships between people in the commons run through the government in the form of laws and regulations. And you write, “there are things you can do on public lands, and there are things you will get fined or arrested for.”And so, a system based on allowances and punishment, a system of rights. But rights do not necessarily breed responsibility. And it can be argued that rights can undermine responsibility both on personal and collective levels. A central question that arises in the debate as to whether to repeal these prohibitions on access is that a people growing up in a culture of enclosure and hypermobility, such as most urban people do these days, tend to have no personal or peripheral example of what worthy stewardship looks like.And so I'm curious, how does the Right to Roam team and perhaps other authors and activists you've come across contend with this notion? There's a mention [00:29:00] on your website of the ability of people to offer “wild service,” and I'm curious what this means in the context of rights and responsibilities.Lewis: Well, I don't think that rights necessarily undermine responsibilities. I think badly designed rights can, but I think that, in a meaningful way, rights can give people a stake. They can really say to people, actually, “ this is something which belongs to you, and that's worth defending.”If people are only experiencing the countryside through prohibition, then clearly that's gonna lead to a form of feelings of unwelcome. And I think that that kind of relationship with the countryside is damaging, and particularly, I think it damages the ideas of trust and our sense that we can actually learn to care for these places. And that's deep set [00:30:00] within the culture, I think, that we're part of. And one of the things, as you've highlighted, this challenge, which is also an opportunity, is for education. And not only do we have these very exclusionary laws, which prohibit us from accessing so much land. I mean, we're talking about we only have access to 8% of England, and about 3% of our rivers. These places also only exist in particular parts of England and Wales. So there are vast parts of the country where the countryside might as well just be wallpaper.And so, for so many people, access is a kind of an academic exercise. It's this idea that you might be able to access it, or if you have a car, you can drive to a place. So I think there's a lot of work to be done to give people the experiences that really build up that kind of culture of care, which I think... or “stewardship” is the word that you used.Getting those laws in place, getting the right to roam legislation that we're after, is the first step on the ladder. [00:31:00] And then the next step is maybe something like, “how do we put in place those systems of infrastructure and support, which we need to actually see more people in the countryside?” And some of those things might be about, “how do we get more school kids out?” I mean, even here near Dartmoor, the only place in England where you can sleep out under the stars, most of the kids in this area won't have had that experience and probably will never have that experience. So how do we remedy things like that? How do we support schools to do more of that? How do we get more of our education systems, both formal and informal education systems, to embrace a culture of access?In England, we can look north of the border to Scotland to see where such a system's been in place since 2003, where the Scottish Land Reform Act was put in place, which gave people a default right of access to land and water in the country, which [with] sensible exceptions for things like privacy, wildlife, land with crops growing on it [00:32:00] and public safety, backed up by a code of responsibility. But that in itself is only just over 20 years old, as an act. So, culturally it's still quite young, but it's been a real success.And then, we can look elsewhere. We can maybe look elsewhere in Europe, to Norway and to Sweden, for examples where, culturally, this is sort of something which is more deeply accepted. And there are many other examples, obviously from across Europe and globally, where there are different sets of rights that give people different sets of access and mobility within landscapes.So I think all we're trying to do really here in England is point to a way of being, which is about the structures of how we do that, but it's also about our kind of mindset and how we relate to places.And we can see that it's entirely possible and preferable to the system that we have here today. So I think [00:33:00] that yes, rights in themselves are not the answer, but they are the kind of the bedrock on which we could build a whole world of possibility.Chris: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Thank you, Lewis. I guess the question that I was trying to drive towards is this notion that's come up quite a bit in the podcast, which is that tourism doesn't necessarily begin once you get off a plane or a boat or a train. That tourism is a kind of lifestyle that seems to exist in the bedrock of the modern condition. And so how do we bring people into the possibility of something like “wild service” or stewardship when the vast kind of understanding of how we proceed towards quote “nature” or other communities is touristic in nature.And so I'm curious, in the organising that you've done, when people have the opportunity to dig deeper into the histories of their lands, and the access to lands, and the [00:34:00] enclosure that access and the enclosure of the common lands in the UK, and when they start to see perhaps what's possible by virtue of other people showing up, interested in the same research, in the possibility, the real possibility of things being otherwise, once people gathered together toward these possibilities, I'm curious what shows up for you among people who perhaps come from this more touristic sensibility.Lewis: Yeah. Well, a couple of years ago, the campaign wrote a book, a collection of essays called “Wild Service,” which is sort of acts as a bit of a compass towards this kind of new narrative of beyond extractive tourism, beyond recreation even, towards something which we sort of playfully called “re-creation” sometimes, this sort of sense that, actually, there's another way of doing this stuff. There's another way of [00:35:00] being in new places and of experiencing nature places near to and beyond our home. And Wild Service really is about... the kind of the subtitle of the book is “Why Nature Needs You.” So it's really kind of flipping this thing we were talking about earlier, which is that kind of a lot of conservation tends to focus in on, “ we desperately need nature, so we need to protect nature, and the way we do that is by excluding people.” And that's not all of conservation, but that is a kind of prevailing mindset which has existed and is entrenched now.So, wild service is trying to chart a different way, which is that we need to find this kind of peace, really. We are feeling that we can be active agents of benefit for the world around us. And there are some great examples. I mean, Paul Powlesland's an amazing barrister activist, who lives in northeast London and is [00:36:00] guardian of the River Roding up there who kind of lives on the river in his boat, and is out on the river every day, normally waist-deep in the river, acting in service to clean that river up.And it is in a mess. This river's been a historic dumping ground for industry, and neglected by government and local authority over the years, and just trashed. And Paul is with a team of volunteers, working so hard to shine a light on that, but also just basically to clean it up, and to demonstrate how illegal rubbish dumps and illegal sewers are overflowing into it. And it's become this flashpoint really for a wider conversation of concern.And there are many other examples where, you know, on the River Wye, for example, on the border between Wales and England, which is one of the first rivers really to have its kind of legal rights asserted in England through the action of communities.And we're talking about wild swimmers and anglers and [00:37:00] kayakers and people who are kind of out on the river. And I think it's no coincidence that the River Wye is also one of the only rivers in England where there is a legal right of access to swim and to connect with the river. And that people have seen it as a gift really, to then act on behalf of the river. And of course, then that's playing out now.The rights of nature are playing out globally. I mean Ecuador, being one of the kind of trailblazing, the constitution, embedding this. And I think acting as an inspiration for so many more communities to really take on board the rights of nature. And to see a kind of community activists stepping forward in wild service to do some of this work. And in cases like Paul, they often trespass whilst they're doing it.Chris: Yeah, I think there's definitely this question of animism that comes into play, perhaps peripherally as well in these conversations, which is that, so many of our ancestors, at least at some point, [00:38:00] understood the more-than-human beings and worlds within their places as just as alive and deserving of a good life and dignity as humans are.And that over the course of the last 500 years, at least, a degree of deanimation has occurred as a result of the enclosures. Certainly, you could get into the Cartesian philosophical questions, regarding who has a soul and who doesn't. But I think there's something deeply embedded there as well about the questions of, when we find ways to ensure that rivers, for example, or other aspects of the more-than-human world have rights, that we are trying to find a way back towards respecting the dignity that exists, and is [00:39:00] more or less, demanded, if not, seen or experienced a priori, within an animistic perspective.Lewis: Yeah, I mean, absolutely the same logic that tore people from the Commons was also at play, of course, in the kind of instrumentalising and essentializing nature, and creating this sort of division between people and the rest of nature. And it is certainly there in the history of the British Isles.You just don't have to look even back that far to see that people had a much kind of closer relationship. And I think this isn't about going back to anything. This is about finding a new path where, actually, this kind of experiment in driving a wedge between humans and the rest of nature has been wildly unsuccessful, and has caused great harm, and has precipitated, also, the harms done to people elsewhere.And, part of our kind of job now, I think, is to look to other [00:40:00] ways of doing things. And I see really in the kind of richness of the work being done by communities and individuals, and increasingly, with work being done within governance, that actually rights of nature is not a panacea, but it does give us this sort of direction towards something, which is perhaps more unifying, and can be part of that future.Chris: Hmm. Yeah. I'm reminded of a fairly famous quote, at least within the psychedelic culture, of a man named Terrence McKenna, who said that this work is not a return to the archaic. It's a return of the archaic.Lewis: Hmm.Chris: And so perhaps there's something in there that can give us pause to consider and reconsider how we are with more-than-human worlds.Well, I'd like to take a, just a slight detour if we can, because there's this question of [00:41:00] what the enclosures of the commons did, to people both in England and then abroad, later. And a lot of it has to do with the human relationship to nature, to more-than-human worlds. But I'm also curious about this relationship to home, and to housing even, and to what the enclosures kind of precipitated in the behaviour of human beings, what displacement and expulsion and enclosure do to human beings.And so, I have a little quote here from a great book, called The War Against the Commons. And in that book, the author writes,“The largest number of migrants left England entirely, mostly for North America or the Caribbean. [This is as a result of the enclosures.] Net emigration in the century before 1640 was close to [00:42:00] 600,000, and another 400,000 left by the end of that century, extraordinarily large numbers from a country whose mid-1600s population was barely 5 million people.What's more, those are net figures. More people left, but their numbers were partially offset by immigrants arriving in England from Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and continental Europe. Most of the emigrants were young men, and about half paid for the dangerous ocean crossing by agreeing to be indentured servants for four or more years there, in the ‘New World.' That was a high price, but hundreds of thousands of landless peasants were willing to pay it.For some, it was not a choice. English courts frequently sentenced vagrants and other criminals to indentured servitude in the New World.”And so, I don't think it's such a huge [00:43:00] stretch of the imagination to say that the chain reaction that began with the enclosures in England and later spread to most parts of the world had direct consequences for how the Americas, among other places, were colonised. I think it's quite curious and telling that the sometimes brutal dispossession and dislocation that was unleashed on commoners in the UK was then later unleashed by those same commoners turned migrants or their descendants on the other side of the Atlantic. And so, given that one of the major issues of our time revolves around migration and borders, I'm curious if this history or this unauthorised history has come up at all in the conversations around migration in your part of the world.Lewis: Yeah. Well, I think the harm that has been done to the landscapes here, clearly, the mindset and the exploitative mindset have been at play [00:44:00] elsewhere as we've discussed. You talked about how vagrants were treated. People are told they have no place on land that they don't own. And then when they find themselves, suddenly without work and dispossessed and subject to new laws that were criminalising that kind of vagrancy, I think that's such a strong kind of signal within a society that there's this kind of way of being successful or a way of undertaking a life, and of doing business, whatever you wanna call it. And so as soon as people are given an opportunity to go off and set off for new shores... we were effectively training a whole population on how to other, and how to exploit. I mean, this was the kind of place in which that mindset was cultivated.Chris: Mm-hmm.Lewis: And people, I think what I always come [00:45:00] back to in, whenever I'm reading about the enclosures and the commons, is that people were resisting, as well. And I think, the Levellers, the amazing campaigning done by the Levellers who took up arms and really knew resisted the kind of modern enclosures and the idea of landlordism, that only land landowners should have a broad set of rights, including the right to vote. The people were resisting this at every step of the way.And I think that we see that obviously internationally, as well. Colonisation by Britain and by other colonising powers has always been resisted, and there are movements globally that are working to protect the rights of people and land against these kinds of damaging and exploitative practises.But I think it comes back really, as somebody who lives here in England, that it might feel small to be a part of a campaign, which is about “I want [00:46:00] rights to be able to walk outta my door and walk into the nearby countryside, whilst there are these sort of incredibly awful, colonial practises going on in the name of progress, globally, in my name.”This is also about how we cultivate that kind of awareness and resistance. Because what I see and what I've learned through being part of this campaign is that, something which is kind of meaningful for us here today, by learning our histories and how this has kind of evolved, really, and grown out of the land where I live, part of that journey is also about educating ourselves and taking action on things which are an injustice for us in our lives, and joining those injustices to others, which are taking place in the name of the same systems that exploited the world, the more direct world around us.So, these are joined up. And, I think the other thing I wanna say is that like so many times in our campaigning we've come across the role of power and privilege and money in the countryside, [00:47:00] and how the larger states and the names that go with them that persist in the countryside today...I mean, about a third of England is still in aristocratic hands. We're unsure of the exact figure because so much of the land in England is not registered, but around about a third of England is still in the hands of... many of those people can trace their lineage right back to the Norman Conquest, to 1066, when William the Conqueror came over and handed out the land of his newly acquired domain to all of his mates. We're still living with that legacy today.And so, we see those power structures in the countryside. We see the money that's behind them. And all of the new money, the corporate money as well, that's being poured into the countryside around us. And there's a direct link there to democracy, as well, to what we're told about who belongs and who gets a say and who actually should feel welcome here. And when we look at the rise of the far-right here [00:48:00] in England, and I think, elsewhere, globally, the perpetuation of the narratives that go behind the rise of the far-right comes from that kind of land-owning, embedded power structure, the same power which has actually disconnected and dispossessed the majority of the population, the 99% of us, who don't own half of England.And that's really shocking. And I think, when we see figures like Nigel Farage here in England, pointing to migrants as the problem, it doesn't take much delving back into our history to see that this is a defence strategy, a way of deflecting blame from those who have acquired through exploitation, through murder and destruction, massive amounts of wealth and privilege and power.And so, this is the latest iteration of blaming people. We blamed the vagabonds and the [00:49:00] poor for causing problems in the countryside by criminalising activities, and exporting them off. And today we're blaming migrants, and I think, to be able to know our history and to look at how the enclosure acts and the loss of a sense of common belonging is connected to how we are having our dispossession thrown back at us through a sense of blame for others who have absolutely no stake in the uprooting of our connection.Chris: Hmm. Brilliant. Yeah. Thank you so much, Louis, for bringing this up. I mean, I've had my friend and mentor Steven Jenkinson on the pod a few times. And one of the things that he's written that describes the dynamics in a lot of the modern condition. But I think in this question, particularly around migration and colonial history,[00:50:00] he writes that, “ they deify what dispossessed their ancestors.” They turn into a God, the trauma that dispossessed their ancestors. And then, of course, in this particular context, they project it onto the people who are now being dispossessed.Lewis: Hmm.I mean, we see this logic also play out in other, smaller ways, I think, in the countryside in England. Like, for example, massive running battles and riots to protect Fenland, the fenlands of the east of England, from being drained and improved. Massive protests to prevent woodlands from being enclosed. But today, we'll see the everyday public who don't have any ownership of those lands, protecting this kind of sense of industrial improvement. And I think that there's a lot of unpicking to be done, to look back [00:51:00] and to say, actually, this is something that was done to us. And with that, we lost our rights, and also now, one of the biggest kinds of parlour tricks really of that whole system has been for us to blame each other.Chris: Yeah. I mean, I see it on a smaller scale as well in terms of landlordism and rent. I mean, we, I had an interview a few months ago, and we brought up the question of rent, which surely existed before the enclosure of the commons, but has become a staple, a normalised aspect of modern life. And it's become that rent has become so normalised that no one questions the kind of wage and rent slavery that we're born into in this late capitalist context. And therefore there's no need to imagine our relationships with home or [00:52:00] house or housing or land being any different.And as you mentioned, how the enclosures created this kind of notion perhaps among people in England in the previous hundred years, and then of course exported elsewhere, that the roots of enclosures and the different forms that they take or can take in the world, are the recipe for a ‘better life', right?And so I see that as well as a kind of historical extension of the enclosures, this notion that, like, “well, it's just the way it is and you just have to pay your rent, and there's no questioning the dynamics of private property. And if you don't like it, just submit or become a landlord yourself.Lewis: Hmm. Well, one of the interesting things I think that happened again in Scotland was that in 2003, the Land Reform Act, which came in and which [00:53:00] I've mentioned as being the acts which brought about the Scottish right to roam as we know it today, actually, that was almost a kind of footnote to the wider act. And one of the main things that it brought about was for people to have a right to buy, for communities to have a right to buy. And one of the big transformations in Scotland in recent years has been communities being able to buy up parts of whole estates and even sometimes whole islands.And so, the Isle of Eigg was one of the first examples, but now there are many, many more across Scotland where communities are starting to take literal ownership of places, and with that obviously comes things like rent controls and responsibility and accountability, between each other, within communities.And so, looking at it through that lens, where people have a greater stake in landscapes that they literally own or have a stake in, there are many, many outcomes in terms of nature conservation and public [00:54:00] access, and a wider sense of responsibility, which can kind of spill over. And it is not without problems. I mean, of course, there are still issues in Scotland with estates, and large, faceless landlords extracting massive amounts of extortionate rent from people. That's, of course, still happening.One of the things that we see in England, and I think is maybe a bit of a kind of telling contrast to that, is that in the last year we've seen two large estates, and there's probably been many more, but two that have come up on our radar, really, that have held-in properties.So one of them down in Dorset, a kind of neighbouring county to where I live, had 32 houses, ostensibly, affordable dwellings for people to live in the countryside, which is hard to come by, actually. In some parts of rural England, it's really hard to live affordably in the countryside. So, people who have been there for generations saw an estate that had been held by the same family for seven generations, suddenly bought by a [00:55:00] faceless corporation on behalf of an anonymous absentee landowner.And suddenly, overnight, the community was hit with kind of massive amounts of uncertainty. People worried about evictions or rents going up. And the same things happened just down the road from us, with an estate owned by the royal family suddenly put up for sale, and suddenly, tenant farmers, people who had had this kind of certainty that actually this has been owned by the royal family since the 1300s, are now being put up for sale.And from that point of view, the person selling it just looks at it like a set of assets that could be sold off. And I think what I would love is for, in England, for us to have a community right to buy. So when things like that happen, then actually communities get this kind of first refusal.So, landlordism and ownership patterns that are linked to the extortions going on are deeply connected to rights of access, because the golden thread that links all of those is a right to belong. And without that kind of certainty that you can call a place home [00:56:00] without being evicted, or without being told that you can get to your kind of favourite river swimming spot, for me, those two things are deeply related, and they point to the need for something much more robust for people who so desperately need it, who don't have the means to buy land themselves.Chris: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you, Lewis. I'm grateful for this work that you do with the right to roam, and hopefully, as the movement grows, there'll be an opportunity for, perhaps, seemingly disparate movements or campaigns to join in this way and to recognise their mutual goals.And so I'm curious, I'd love to ask you about how this shows up on a broader spectrum, in a global spectrum, in terms of the Right To Roam, in terms of access to land and the campaigns and movements that are happening, not just in England, but elsewhere, beyond the Isles and perhaps beyond [00:57:00] Europe.And so I'm curious what kind of similar movements or campaigns might be happening in other countries or continents, for which there might be solidarity between the fight for the commons in the UK and the fight for the commons elsewhere?Lewis: Hmm. Well, land. It literally underpins everything, really.I mean, we see so many campaigns and injustices, which obviously are linked to land and the right to belong and the right to be. And land justice, globally, there's so much international solidarity. Our work today is very much about drawing those threads and remaining kind of focused on what we need to do, but we can see sort of the parallels elsewhere.And, people that we campaign with are also involved in international campaigning with Survival International, for example, doing amazing work to support the rights of indigenous peoples and rights to land globally. And the International Land Coalition, the work that they're [00:58:00] doing, a lot of which is in South America.We talked already about the rights of nature movement, and seeing lots of that kind of showing up and the rights of nature in the constitution of Ecuador, has, as I've already said, been a massive inspiration for that movement now in the UK.And, obviously, in the majority of Latin American countries, this is a real present challenge, and it's highly contested. I was speaking with a group from Dalhousie University in Canada as well recently about the kind of the rights to the coastline up there, and how, even in North American countries, there are like these challenges because of the development of coastlines, and not just coastlines, but also, the private property rights which excludes people to perhaps a more extreme extent than we have here in England.I was always struck by how, in the United States, the [00:59:00] right to roam campaign is sort of... I think people are just bewildered by it. Like, “What is this kind of campaign?” Because the rights of property are so sacrosanct, and the rights of property and the right to exclude, with the exception of the national park.So, we see these interesting challenges coming up, and international solidarity with people, in all sorts of different contexts.I was really interested in the conversation that you were having with Devon Taylor on this podcast about the rights to the coast, for example, in Jamaica, as well, and how that is absolutely linked to the exploitation of Jamaica and of people, and that land is still subject to the same kind of sets of exclusions there. And I was really interested to hear about the campaigning that's being done to just give people a simple right to get to the beach, which just seems so [01:00:00] basic and simple, but actually is fundamental. And so, I'm really gladdened and also shocked by what's happening there. And particularly if you contrast it with a place like Barbados, where there's a right to the coast, to see just what's possible with campaigning. And with political will, actually, you can see that these things are winnable and that they're winnable because of people like Devon doing that kind of work.So yeah, our work's very much focused on England, and what we can achieve within this parliament. We basically want to finish what we're doing, and then carry on with the wider work that we're all also interested in doing, and getting this law changed is our kind of like tiny puzzle piece in the wider tapestry of land justice, globally.Chris: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. May it be that the people who listen to this and who find their way towards the Right to Roam's work, join up and remember the [01:01:00] histories that have led us to this point and to people like yourself who are working to reconcile, as you said, what's been done historically in your name, or in your names.And, it's been a blessing to have you on the pod Lewis, to be able to both historically and contemporaneously, bring together a lot of the threads that a lot of other podcast guests in the past have spoken to, threads that bring us to a degree of source or historical origin in terms of how these enclosures came to be and of course, how people like yourself in the place that they began are working for their proper subversion.And so, on behalf of our listeners, Lewis, I'd like to thank you for joining me today for being willing to speak to these issues, these very complex issues. And I'm of course grateful that you're digging into the complexities in the way that you do.It's a great honour. And finally, [01:02:00] I'd like to ask you, how might our listeners find out more about the Right to Roam and its campaigns? How might they get involved and support, or begin this good work, in the places that they live?Lewis: Thanks, Chris. It is great to be on here and speaking with you, as well.And yeah, I mean, we're a small campaign. We do what we can with the small amount of resources that we have available. But I think, if people want to support our work, you can head over to our website. We've got our website at righttorome.org.uk. So check that out. We've got a mailing list, as well, and we try to send out fairly infrequent, but we hope, worthwhile emails, which give you a bit of insight.They tend to be focused on the work we are doing here for England and Wales. But I think for international listeners, this is potentially of interest as well, because, obviously, this speaks to the wider context. We've got social media as well, so you can see us on Instagram and on Blue Sky. And we're just in the process of setting [01:03:00] up a blog, as well. So, stay tuned for that. But get in touch and listen out for any updates.Chris: Thank you, Lewis. I'll make sure that those links are on the End of Tourism website in the homework section. And, for those who are outside of England who are wondering about this, perhaps the Right to Roam and their work is something not only of an inspiration, but a foundation for the ways in which you and your people might come to gather together and organise for access to land in your places.Thank you so much, Louis.Lewis: Thanks, Chris. Get full access to Chris Christou at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

So many offices out there think growth has to come from new patients. Tiff and Kristy share specific areas in your practice where you can increase what you're pulling in. This includes fee analyses, unscheduled patients, a finely tuned schedule, and more. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are so excited to be here with you today. We love podcasting. We love giving out so much great information. And more than anything, we really love sharing our journeys with you guys, us consultants here on the team. We get to be in office with you, a lot of you. we get to be on the road, we get to go to CE courses, we take a ton of CE courses. The gal who's podcasting with me today is a CE maniac. she's always just looking things up and   And learning and growing. So we get to learn and grow. We get to boots on the ground, test things out, and then we get to deliver those ideas and those thoughts here to everyone on this platform. So thank you for being a valued listener. We hope that you enjoy today's content and please, please, please share with a friend something that we're very passionate about is reaching as many people as we possibly can on this platform and others. So whether you are a current client, a future client, or a forever podcast listener alone.   We just ask that you share this information, you pass it along to a friend, so that they can get some great nuggets as well. And Kristy, I have Kristy here with me today. And like I said, Kristy, you are just like a learning magnet. I love it because you just have this broad spectrum, this range of things that you love consuming, and you bring so much knowledge to the Dental A Team consulting team. So, Kristy.   Thank you for being here with us today. I am excited for today's topic. and before we dive in, how are you? How has your podcasting been? You listen to, you consume a lot. And then you you're   DAT- Kristy (01:37) Yeah.   Tiffanie (01:38) someone that consumes but also utilizes what you consume, which I think is a special skill. So how are you? How's your world? How's your learning? What's new for you?   DAT- Kristy (01:47) Yeah, it's going good, Tiff. it's beginning of the week, so it's always fun to dive in and hear the things. I think lately it's really been around insurance and getting payments on time. They're doing some sneaky stuff with payments, so keeping clients apprised to that and making sure the revenue's coming in. But beyond that, like you're right. I I do like to to listen and stay up on things so that we can share with our   not just our clients, but even like you said, future clients or people listening to the podcast.   Tiffanie (02:22) Yeah, I agree. I know you're gonna say insurance. That has been a bug this year. Insurance   DAT- Kristy (02:27) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (02:27) the insurance bug is what we will call it. and   DAT- Kristy (02:30) Yeah.   Tiffanie (02:30) I love it because I know I can I can pick your brain for so many things and you do stay up on so many forums and you're always reading. but then on the opposite end of that spectrum, like I know I I know you will what does Kiera call you? A truffle, a truffle hunter, right? Like you're gonna find those truffles in the forest.   within the insurance and the billing world, but also you love leadership, like growth and development and this the non-dental leadership podcast of the world and books and we're always talking about that stuff. So I think it's really cool and very valuable for everybody and and gives you just a ton of credibility as we speak to a lot of the things we're gonna talk about.   DAT- Kristy (03:15) thank you, Teff.   Tiffanie (03:16) Of course. and yes, it is early in the week starting my   Starting my Monday podcasting is really fun. And starting my Monday podcasting with Kristy brings it down. It's only 10 a.m. and I feel like it has been a whirlwind this morning. So knowing   DAT- Kristy (03:31) Yeah.   Tiffanie (03:31) that I'm here, I'm like, okay, actually we're gonna breathe. So I hope all of our listeners feel that. Kristy brings a sense of calm to every every space that you enter. so thank you for doing that for me today. I need it.   DAT- Kristy (03:44) Absolutely, my pleasure.   Tiffanie (03:46) So, Kristy, this is something I think you're really great at. I do go through and and this was the first podcast on our list, and I was like, Yeah, this is Kristy's podcast. If we do no more   DAT- Kristy (03:56) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (03:56) today, it's at least this one. And we really wanted to speak to the podcasting world here and and dental listeners about how to find growth within a practice without physically growing the practice. And this is something that has come up a lot. And I think Kristy.   I've at least had a lot of I've been experiencing this. I've had a lot of practices that are like tapped out on space, right? Like physical space. And after 2020, right? The year of 2020, March to December, this massive boom, right? We had this tank of like, what are we gonna do? And then we just had this massive boom and this influx. And so I think what I saw happen is a ton of practices remodeled or they did expansions, they added as much as they physically could.   And they're kind of tapped out. I know I have you know some that are like if I build anymore, I don't have parking where my patients gonna park. And so   DAT- Kristy (04:50) That's seven.   Tiffanie (04:51) they're finding themselves in this space or they're finding themselves in this space where maybe they don't have the finances right now to physically build or the capability and it doesn't make sense to. So we push growth. We're always saying, you know, seven to ten percent, ten percent is our goal, at seven percent is a minimum, a bare minimum to keep up with inflation. And my   Clients, you know, a lot of my practices are looking at me like, okay, Tiff, like that's crazy. So I wanted to chat today through some ideas that we utilize and Kristy that you bring to the table specifically to increase that like dollar per hour, that bottom line, that production collection space without physically increasing maybe even our patient base. Cause Kristy also have got a ton of practices.   that are struggling for new patients. We're like scraping the bottom of the braille all trying to find new patients. So yeah, that's where we're at. We're just like, how do you grow without pouring water on a plant and growing it, you know?   DAT- Kristy (05:52) Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Tip, I love this subject because so many offices think that it all has to come from new patients, you know? And sometimes new patients can be expensive if we're looking for outside marketing, right? And we have so much to tap into within our practices already. And first and foremost, I always like to say when's the last time you did a fee evaluation? a lot of people after COVID.   really didn't tap into this. And I speak to doctors almost every day who think they were at the 80th percentile. And when we look at it, they're down in the 40th or 50th percentile, you know? And I also say tip with that, a lot of docs are hesitant to to look at this because they're like, I'm so high PPO. And I always say, hey, if you don't raise your fees, they're never going to raise theirs either. So   Tiffanie (06:47) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (06:48) Taking a look at that first and foremost is huge.   Tiffanie (06:51) I totally agree with that. It's something that's overlooked. I love what you said about the PPO space because so many doctors are like, what difference does it make? I'm tied to these fee schedules or nobody ever sees my UCR. Well, they do. The insurance companies see it. And I actually have a practice, I don't remember who I was podcasting with, but we spoke about them a couple weeks ago that they do their fee analysis and updates in during the summer. It's their slow time and so   DAT- Kristy (07:16) Mm.   Tiffanie (07:18) they do it during the summer.   when there's space and there's time because January, you know, that's an influx of just   DAT- Kristy (07:24) Basically.   Tiffanie (07:25) yeah, is it crazy. And so they move that task to the summer, which I think is really smart. And we actually just went through and did a fee analysis and found that they're they have a couple of insurances that are paying in network almost to their UCR fees. And their UCR fees are not low, right? They're getting like a thousand to eleven hundred dollars for a crown.   So when we requested a fee increase, right, they're like, hey, we're already paying 90% or 95% of your UCR, so we're denying it right now. And to your point, Kristy, they need to change their UCR because their insurances are following those UCR fees, right?   DAT- Kristy (08:06) Yeah.   Tiffanie (08:07) And so many practices overlook that and just go with the flow, and they just like muscle memory, they just keep.   you just keep doing it, right? You're like Dory, just keep swimming and you just don't think about what's behind you. And increasing   DAT- Kristy (08:20) Yeah.   Tiffanie (08:21) those UCRs makes a massive difference, especially when you're a PPO   dentist in the area that's at that 50th percentile. You need to be way higher. And if no one's seeing those UCR fees, great. Then guess what? You don't have to have that conversation with your with your patients.   that their fees are increasing because you increased fees. Like no now your insurances see those fee increases and then you can request fee increases from them for your fee schedules.   DAT- Kristy (08:49) Yeah, exactly. I think it's a it's a huge missed opportunity if if you haven't looked at them in a while. And and I like to say look at once a year. I mean, it it really is worth it and it fluctuates. And don't forget your products if you're selling products. Like make   Tiffanie (09:05) Yes.   DAT- Kristy (09:05) sure you're updating those and looking at invoices. Make sure you're you're charging the correct, you know, a lot of offices don't add on for like   toothbrushes and that sort of stuff, you could actually be going in the hole if you haven't looked at it in a while. So   Tiffanie (09:20) Absolutely. I have had so many practices that were that look back, you know, they haven't done it in three, four years and they look at it and they're like, my gosh, I'm literally losing money on fluoride. Like, we haven't updated our fees, so my fluoride costs more than what I'm charging my patients. And I'm like, Yeah, and that's an easy   DAT- Kristy (09:37) Crazy.   Tiffanie (09:38) one. And even like to your point the oral bee and crest and all of them, they increase inflation, right, is everywhere. So if your goodie bags are, you know, costing a certain amount   Add that in too. Take that into consideration because you've got to pay for those somehow, and we forget that those freebies are coming out of our overhead somewhere. We've got to make   DAT- Kristy (09:59) Yeah,   agree with you, Tiff. you know, the other area that I like is looking at your unscheduled patients. I mean,   Tiffanie (10:07) Right.   DAT- Kristy (10:08) so many of my practices have a whole practice within a practice and and we get busy and we think we we don't have time to call on those. And I like to say it's a proactive and a reactive approach and making sure we're touching it every single day is huge.   Tiffanie (10:25) Yeah.   Yeah, and to your point, that's a like a reactivation campaign. This is not just it's also including, but it's not just patients who were due last month that didn't come in. Those are very top of mind. We're hitting those. 90% of our our our practices are hitting those recare due. Recare coming up, recare six months past due, one year past due. This is patients who haven't been seen in 18, 24, 36 months because   To your point, there's a practice practice within a practice. I have practices, I know we both do. The physical practice has been around for 30 plus years. You may have been the newest dentist, the newest owner. So maybe you've only been there for two, three, five years, and you're thinking active patient count, but you've got 30 years of this physical space being there of patients who per perhaps haven't seen a dentist or been touched by your recare efforts.   DAT- Kristy (11:21) Yeah, absolutely. And I love those ones because you already have a relationship with them. So   Tiffanie (11:25) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (11:26) you even if you've physically inactivated them, you can run an inactivated campaign and and systematically touch these people to remind them, Hey, I'm still here. We'd love to see ya, you know.   Tiffanie (11:39) Yeah.   Yeah. I have a lot of clients that do that reactivation campaign and they're like, okay, but what if they've moved? What if they decided not to come? He's like, great, then you get to clean up your system as well and remind those patients, no matter where they live, they need to see a dentist. So if our goal is to ensure that our patients are healthy, you're still handling that because you're still reminding them to find a dentist and   To me, those are new patients, right? And you said earlier, like a lot of a lot of practices will put all their eggs in a basket of a new patient. And I think that comes from the early 2000s of everything was new patients. There were so many consulting companies and I just everything we heard in dentistry was new patients. You heard nothing else, new patients in production. And that's evolved a ton because I think people got tired of being new patient mills, right? Where it was like,   We see so many patients, but we're not worried about what's happening to them after they leave that first appointment. And that has dramatically shifted. And that's where this comes into play. So even if you haven't physically, maybe you've been there for a year or three years, you haven't met that patient yet, that's okay. That patient   DAT- Kristy (12:49) Sure.   Tiffanie (12:50) has a relationship with the practice, with the building, it's memory, it's driving up to the place that you've gone.   three, four, five times for your dental care. That's my dentist, right? That's my dental practice. So then you have that opportunity now to build the relationship one-on-one with that person as they enter.   DAT- Kristy (13:10) Yeah, agree with you, Tiff. it it's look at the number because I bet you would be surprised at how many patients you have sitting out there. And if truly you are at a capacity, you guys can go through those and look at them strategically. If they have outstanding treatment, those patients potentially could be could be coming back in not just hygiene, but in the doctor's chair too. So   Tiffanie (13:32) Yes. Yes.   DAT- Kristy (13:34) yeah, there's a gold mine sitting out there most of the time, and it just takes tapping   Tiffanie (13:36) Yeah. Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (13:38) into it.   Tiffanie (13:39) I have a practice that had nineteen thousand patients had touched this physical building at one point or another. Nineteen thousand people in this small town. And I was like, Yeah, stop paying for new patients. Just just physically hit those patients with emails. You just automated emails that go out once a month and you're gonna get you're gonna get patients back because I've seen it and you're gonna get patients that call and say, Hey, actually I moved out of town. Great.   clean up our system. So I love those.   DAT- Kristy (14:06) Yeah.   You know, Tiff, even to that point, how many offices look at how many new patients they get, but take it one step further and see, okay, we had thirty new patients this month, but only twenty rescheduled for another appointment. So making   Tiffanie (14:21) Right. Mm-hmm.   DAT- Kristy (14:22) sure when we have them or having those conversations to keep them and capture them as they're coming in as well.   Tiffanie (14:29) Yeah, I have I had that conversation last week with a client and they asked the great question of okay, is that that they scheduled for their treatment or they scheduled their six month recare? And I said, Great question because I love definitions and both   DAT- Kristy (14:41) Yeah.   Tiffanie (14:43) because so many patients, Kristy, so many people are like, yeah, sure, we'll schedule. And then they cancel in two weeks   DAT- Kristy (14:49) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (14:50) or six months right before their visit, right? And you never see them again. So if they had treatment diagnosed and didn't schedule that, but they scheduled their six month visit.   That's a little fishy to me. So I said both. And that   DAT- Kristy (15:01) Yeah.   Tiffanie (15:02) leads into that case acceptance space too. We're only watching we're only watching case acceptance of an overall and we're not differentiating to are the new patients accepting versus just maybe recare's accepting that we've already had this relationship because then you're seeing what's that relationship we're building with the new patients? Are they sticking or are they canceling?   DAT- Kristy (15:23) Yeah, 100%, Tiff. I think there's a couple other areas too that come to mind for me when it comes to the growth. And it goes back to what you were saying in the case acceptance realm. Like what I found lately is people really have to have some strategic resources for patients to accept treatment, you know?   Tiffanie (15:43) Mm.   DAT- Kristy (15:44) So from the realm of finances, making sure we have ways that patients can say yes.   Tiffanie (15:50) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (15:50) You know,   and really measuring when they don't, what what stood   Tiffanie (15:54) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (15:55) in the way.   Tiffanie (15:56) Yeah, I love that. And that seems to be I think in for my client base, what I've seen is scheduling hurdles and finances, making sure   DAT- Kristy (16:05) Yep.   Tiffanie (16:06) that there's an easy way to say yes to the price. and making sure that blocked scheduling or whatever it is that you choose to use for your scheduling that it that it works. I've got a lot of patient or a lot of clients that   their patient appointments, like they're just throwing things on the schedule to try to fill it. Like especially the ones that are struggling to fill a schedule, they're just grabbing whatever they can. And   DAT- Kristy (16:31) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (16:33) without utilizing a blocked scheduling method and filling it in that way, we do a really big disservice because I think Kristy, what I've seen at least, is sometimes those patients that are in, those appointments that are in that should be an hour, are now taking an hour and a half, two hours because there's other stuff mixed in.   And so then we are making our days longer and like, okay, if we're scheduling that, now I need two hours in the future. You probably didn't. You probably just didn't schedule correctly around it. And so you're actually losing a ton of time throughout your day to be more productive. And to your point, Kristy, that's the growth. If we can condense our schedule and do things more effectively and more efficiently, we can add more production onto the schedule.   DAT- Kristy (17:20) Agree with you. again, too, in this day and age, a lot of people don't like taking a lot of time off work. So consider   Tiffanie (17:27) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (17:27) doing more on your patient while they're there. Give them give them the choice, you know, let them decide. Are you the type of patient that likes to do what more in one treatment, you know, or do you   Tiffanie (17:39) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (17:39) want to come more frequently?   Tiffanie (17:41) Yeah, and that goes into your being able to say yes to the treatment. I think that's a that's a space as well because if you come at me with like two, three, four appointments, I might be like overwhelmed by the idea and not want to start anything because I can't finish it. And if   DAT- Kristy (17:57) Yeah.   Tiffanie (17:58) my schedule is too difficult to envision being able to finish all of these appointments in a timely manner, I might just back away and say, you know what, I'm not ready to start anything because I can't figure out how to do it all.   DAT- Kristy (18:09) Yep, agree with you, Tiff. And lastly, I think I hear a lot of doctors say, All my patients are so healthy. All my patients   Tiffanie (18:16) Yes.   DAT- Kristy (18:17) are so healthy. And I I truly think that that's a huge missed opportunity too. It's a great time to take a step back and just say, Hey, what are your long-term goals for your teeth? And maybe now that you've repaired damage in my mouth or gotten rid of infection, this is a perfect time to talk about the cosmetic things that a lot of doctors   Tiffanie (18:37) Wonderful thing.   DAT- Kristy (18:37) love doing, right?   Tiffanie (18:39) Yep, I had that conversation with two or three doctors just last week that I do we hear that constantly, right? Well, I need new patients because my patients are healthy. That's fantastic because what if you could do really fun work on healthy patients? There's ortho, right? And ortho, I love when when practitioners look at ortho as a way to prevent future issues, right? So if you're misaligned, especially the lower anterior.   Always right. There's always something there. So it's perio, it's chip teeth in the future, it's losing teeth. Like, how can we help how can ortho become a preventative measurement? And then to your point, cosmetics, whitening. My fiance just asked me the other night. Like he hasn't talked to his dentist at all about it, but he's got two, he's got an implant with a crown and he's got a crown.   And they're discoloring. They're they're years old. They're probably like six years old at this point, right? And so they're discoloring. And he's like, What do I even do? Right? Thank goodness. I'm here and I I'm like, well, let me give you your options. You can do four,   DAT- Kristy (19:46) Yeah.   Tiffanie (19:46) six, eight. Let me tell you what I would do. Let me tell you who I would like all of these things. But he isn't talking to them about it. He's talking to me about it. So how many patients do we have that don't even have someone to talk to about it? They're just sitting there wondering.   Could this be better and afraid to say something because it's an embarrassing or confusing or an unknown? Like so many things hold us back.   DAT- Kristy (20:13) Yeah, it's crazy. A lot of my clients have heard this story, but the same thing happened with my mother-in-law. Like literally   Tiffanie (20:19) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (20:20) when I was in practice, you know, family would come, but she went somewhere with her friends and she saw somebody with a beautiful smile. And next thing you know, she's going to their dentist. Yeah, she came back.   Tiffanie (20:30) Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (20:32) But my doctors were like, What the heck? And I'm like, But you never asked or showed the possibilities, you know. So don't   Tiffanie (20:36) Yeah. Yeah.   DAT- Kristy (20:39) forget about your healthy patients. Like, take that step back. And this is a   perfect time to discover is there anything you don't like about your smile, you know.   Tiffanie (20:47) Yeah. I   love that you gave that a story because my fiance literally asked me, Who would I need to go to? Is that something that insert his dentist name can do? And I was like, Wow, this is wild. This is wild. And   DAT- Kristy (21:03) Yeah.   Tiffanie (21:04) so I've had so many people, I'm in Phoenix, right? We're both in Phoenix, right? So Scottsdale   DAT- Kristy (21:08) Yeah.   Tiffanie (21:09) is right around the corner, right? Just   DAT- Kristy (21:11) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (21:11) a little a little twenty-five to forty-five minute drive, depending on where you are in the valley.   Everyone thinks you have to go to Scottsdale for cosmetic treatment, right? I   DAT- Kristy (21:21) Yeah.   Tiffanie (21:22) can't get whitening, I can't get veneers. If I'm going to get veneers, right? We have people and legitimately there are a lot of dentists there, a lot of dentists everywhere who do great work. Scottsdale and LA. People fly in from other states to get dentistry done in Scottsdale and LA because they think that's where they have to go.   His people don't know. He's worked with he's been a patient at this practice since he had the emergency situation with his front teeth.   DAT- Kristy (21:51) Well.   Tiffanie (21:52) And he's like, should I go to him? And I'm like, I can't speak to his work, but I can say he he does them. You know,   DAT- Kristy (21:58) Yeah.   Tiffanie (21:59) so it's like you just don't know what you don't know. And so if we're not having those conversations, I think that's a massive space of growth. And if you're not someone who loves to do that, fine.   What do you love to do? You know, how many missing teeth are there? Do you like bridges? Do you like implants? Do you like how many missing teeth are within your recare? How many missing teeth are coming down the pipeline of patients that are in your database?   DAT- Kristy (22:25) One hundred percent. And or even maybe you've added new services to your service mix that even your existing patients don't know you're doing.   Tiffanie (22:33) Yeah, yeah. I agree. And it doesn't have to be Botox, fillers, threads. Like you don't have to be   DAT- Kristy (22:37) Right. Yeah.   Tiffanie (22:40) like, okay, well, I've tapped out my crowns and my fillings. Like I've gotta offer these other things. If you want to offer it, great, do it. But if it's not like a desire that you have to be this aesthetic dentist in that capacity, don't do it. You don't have to do all on force. Find something that you love.   that you can add to your service mix or something that's within your service mix to Kristy's point that your patients just don't even know that's there.   DAT- Kristy (23:09) Yeah. And lastly to wrap it, Tiff, I think so many people don't realize tapping into their own patients to earn that growth, like through social media and that sort of reviews, referrals, you know what I mean? Like give your patients a reason to refer and and even talk about you. Like bring that presence around so your existing patients can share why they love you and others will follow them.   Tiffanie (23:38) Yeah. Yeah. Don't be the dentist that your patients are like, I don't know if they're accepting new patients or not. Let me call and find out. Like, no, just let them call and find out. So I agree.   DAT- Kristy (23:46) Yeah.   Tiffanie (23:47) I agree. I think fee schedule increases. So if you haven't done them recently within the last year, do it. I do love the idea of moving that to the summer or whatever your slow period is. If you're a pediatric dentist, don't do it in the summer. and then looking at service mixes, so what can you do more of?   And looking at your schedule and making sure that you're utilizing as much time as you possibly can and that this that the schedule makes sense. I love that.   DAT- Kristy (24:14) Agree with you   and don't forget that reactivation.   Tiffanie (24:17) Activation, that was the other one. Yeah. Don't   forget those 19,000 patients that are sitting in your database somewhere. So, yes, I love   DAT- Kristy (24:21) Yeah.   Tiffanie (24:23) that. Kristy, these were phenomenal ideas. Thank you so much. thank you for   DAT- Kristy (24:27) Absolutely.   Tiffanie (24:28) making it easy. Thank you for helping so many clients. And for our listeners, if you need some Kristy wisdom, you need some Dental A Team help, please reach out. We're always here. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com or TheDentalATeam.com website. You can sign up for a quick free consultation as well to see if   what ideas we have. It doesn't mean you're signing up. It just means hey, tell me, tell me what are some ideas that you guys have. And we have a ton of free resources on that website as well. Drop us a five star review as always and let us know how we can best help you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Thanks guys.  

Featuring perspectives from Dr Beth Faiman, Dr Natalie S Callander, Dr Hans Lee and Dr Mary Steinbach, moderated by Dr Callander, including the following topics: Introduction (00:00) Role of Chimeric Antigen Receptor T-Cell Therapy in Relapsed/Refractory (R/R) MM (3:44) Role of BCMA- and Non-BCMA-Targeted Bispecific Antibodies in R/R MM (27:00) Utility of Belantamab Mafodotin in R/R MM (49:29) Potential Role of Cereblon E3 Ligase Modulators in MM (1:07:01) CME information and select publications

Don’t get left behind on AWS! Don’t get left behind on AWS! Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this episode, we go deep inside the AWS Marketplace with Louise Strandoo, who spent nearly a decade building AWS’s marketplace business from the ground up and now leads partner development for AWS’s data, analytics, and storage practice. Louise unpacks COST, the six-pillar framework her team built by studying what actually separates hypergrowth startups and billion-dollar sellers from partners who treat marketplace as a side project. We break down why operational excellence has to be in place before you ever enable your sales team, why executive sponsorship from the top of the organization is what keeps a marketplace strategy from collapsing into a single point of failure, and why product-led growth is no longer optional now that buyers, and increasingly AI agents, expect to try, buy, and deploy software without waiting on a human to close the loop, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwyAP7yVy3I Key Takeaways Success on AWS Marketplace requires a comprehensive framework like COST, not just a simple checklist of tasks. Your product must be something customers actually want to buy, not a subpar offering used merely to test the waters. Operational excellence is required to ensure your marketplace motion has the sustainability to scale globally. Product-Led Growth (PLG) is essential for enabling frictionless procurement, especially as buyers shift toward agent-driven AI solutions. Executive sponsorship is critical; building a strategy without leadership buy-in will prevent it from gaining real traction. Sales alignment ensures reps are appropriately compensated and friction is removed, preventing them from avoiding marketplace transactions. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags AWS Marketplace framework, COST methodology, product-led growth, agentic procurement, hyperscaler ecosystem, operational excellence, revenue friction, private offers, co-sell acceleration, strategic collaboration agreements, resilient architecture, cloud commitments, organizational transformation Key Tags Louise Strandoo Audio Episode [00:00:00] Louise Strandoo: Salespeople, rightly so. They don’t wanna introduce something that’s going to add a complexity to the deal. They’re like, why would AWS wanna be involved? [00:00:11] Vince Menzione: You can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us, the way Hyperscalers are partnering, how AI’s remaking the channel and what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:22] Louise Strandoo: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. I’m Vince Menzi. Own [00:00:26] Vince Menzione: your host. And each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology, partnerships and outcomes. The voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the strategy. [00:00:45] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because being in the room changes everything. Let’s start. [00:00:53] Louise Strandoo: And Louise Strand, come on out. Come on up. Uh, our first, our first [00:00:59] Vince Menzione: Amazon executive at, at this session. Not our first ever, but our first at this session. [00:01:06] Louise Strandoo: Happy to be [00:01:07] Vince Menzione: thrilled to have you. I, why don’t we sit down on an, um, I’ll have you sit here and, you know, you get, take one of the ultimate partner pillows with you since you’re a first assignment attend. [00:01:15] Louise Strandoo: Wonderful. [00:01:16] Vince Menzione: Uh, [00:01:16] Louise Strandoo: good [00:01:17] Vince Menzione: to hear. So great to have you. I thought maybe we’d start, maybe, uh, with you, uh, explaining your role. Then we can start talking about costs, which is the subject is like near and dear, and we’ll talk about that, about what that is. But I want to keep people on their pins of their seats right now. [00:01:33] Vince Menzione: So tell us, tell us more about you and your role and your journey at AWS. [00:01:37] Louise Strandoo: Yeah, well thanks for having me. Good to see everybody in the room. Um, so my name’s Louise. I have spent the better part of the last nine and a half years at AWS and I spent almost that whole time, probably around eight years. In AWS Marketplaces business Development organization, um, I joined to help startups figure out how to scale their business on the marketplace. [00:02:00] Louise Strandoo: And from there, I grew into a number of different roles, helped ISVs figure out how to scale their marketplace business of all sizes. Um, I worked with some of our top sellers on the marketplace, figure out how to really scale their revenue through the marketplace. Today I am actually the lead of the data analytics and storage partner development team. [00:02:20] Louise Strandoo: Nice. Within the US Tech partnerships organization. So it’s been a really cool transition to go from like all marketplace focused. And throughout that time, marketplace kind of became the center of partnerships. Yep. Within our partner program. Um, so now I manage PDMs and partners and we still talk a lot about marketplace. [00:02:40] Louise Strandoo: Also everything else that we do as a partner. So it’s, um, it’s been a fun journey. [00:02:45] Vince Menzione: And we were talking about this earlier, like you started with Marketplace and then moved out where all the other organizations started from partnership and moved into marketplace. Mm-hmm. Almost the other up. And you have built a framework costs [00:02:59] Louise Strandoo: mm-hmm. [00:03:00] Vince Menzione: Characteristics of successful sellers. And I have a set of operating principles about successful partnering. So I’m really intrigued about this conversation. I was hoping you could walk us through it, like what are these characteristics and where do most partners fall short in terms of characteristics? [00:03:18] Louise Strandoo: Yeah, so, um, like all really good things, cost was an effort that I built alongside a bunch of other really smart people. And we started to have this conversation about what does, uh, you know, what does success look like? We we’re focused in the beginning, in my marketplace journey on getting. Partners to sell on the marketplace, getting them to list and adopt the features. [00:03:41] Louise Strandoo: And of course they’re like, why would we do this? And we’re like, that’s a great question. Let’s figure out like really what the why of this whole thing is. And as we started to get partners who were startups and some of our really large partners activated, we started to see all kinds of value and how marketplace was helping co-sell and all this good stuff. [00:03:59] Louise Strandoo: And we needed to figure out like how do we identify what is like the lightning in the bottle? So we looked across some of the most, uh, hypergrowth companies on the marketplace. Mm-hmm. Some of those startups that had really propelled into major success stories. And then some of those like really scaled enterprise sellers, the one [00:04:17] Vince Menzione: that got to a billion dollars. [00:04:18] Louise Strandoo: Exactly. The market, our billion dollar market market. Billion dollar sellers. Right? Yep. And we looked at what are the common characteristics that all of those partners embody. Yes. And how do we kind of. Define a framework that is not a checklist because a lot of us were doing that at the time. Here’s all the things that you should do to make it work well. [00:04:34] Louise Strandoo: It doesn’t really work from partner to partner. Everyone has a unique go-to market strategy. Yeah, so we developed costs to kind of be this overarching tool that partners can use to say, do we have the right kind of fundamental approach to how we’re going to market with AWS and how we’re thinking about the marketplace. [00:04:51] Louise Strandoo: Do we have the right tools to like bring our overall go-to-market strategy to A AWS and to the marketplace so we’re not doing two separate things. That was sort of the genesis of the idea. Makes [00:05:02] Vince Menzione: a lot of sense. [00:05:04] Louise Strandoo: So, um, the characteristics, there’s six of ’em. I won’t go into detail about every single one. [00:05:11] Louise Strandoo: Oh, [00:05:11] come [00:05:11] Vince Menzione: on. We’ll do that one. Yeah. We have some people in the room that are gonna be intrigued by this. Go ahead. [00:05:16] Louise Strandoo: So, um, the first pillar is. Partnership with AWS, you can’t do marketplace without figuring out what, what’s your overall partner strategy, right? So how are you using the partner programs to drive differentiation in your business? [00:05:30] Louise Strandoo: Yep. How are you using our funding programs to elevate the parts of your business that you really wanna accelerate? Um, and how are you thinking about your partner strategy with AWS overall? [00:05:40] Vince Menzione: Interesting. [00:05:41] Louise Strandoo: The second one is, uh, selection on AWS marketplace. [00:05:44] Vince Menzione: Product selection. [00:05:45] Louise Strandoo: That’s right. [00:05:45] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:05:46] Louise Strandoo: You gotta have a product on the marketplace that your customers wanna buy. [00:05:49] Louise Strandoo: I think the biggest thing that partners have done wrong over the years is they think, let’s do crawl, walk, run. We’re gonna put something up there that we’re not, you know, really excited about, but we’ll see how it does and then we’ll try to invest from there. [00:06:03] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. [00:06:04] Louise Strandoo: If you put something out there that nobody knows how to sell, then that you’re not excited about, your customers aren’t probably excited about it either. [00:06:09] Louise Strandoo: There’s no reason it’s gonna do well in the marketplace. [00:06:10] Vince Menzione: Yeah. It makes no sense to me. [00:06:12] Louise Strandoo: Yep. So you gotta have something good. You gotta have your marquee product, and then you wanna use features that are gonna help buyers actually access that product in a way that’s frictionless. Yeah. The third one is operational excellence. [00:06:25] Louise Strandoo: So that’s looking at how are you structuring your organization and investing in all the right processes that you need to scale the business. Reporting at a global scale, understanding how to recognize revenue and thinking about all of the in-between moments of. Being on the marketplace, creating an offer, how does your sales team gonna get in touch with you when you need to send that offer out? [00:06:47] Louise Strandoo: And how are you making sure that an alliance person isn’t trying to find an outlet in a random corner of an airport to send a private offer to a customer? All of that structural stuff to make the, the motion scale. [00:07:00] Vince Menzione: So we’re talking product led growth versus. One off or [00:07:04] Louise Strandoo: all of it? All of it. Okay. No matter what kind of partner you are, you have to have operational excellence. [00:07:08] Louise Strandoo: Yeah. To make sure that your marketplace and your partnership motion has sustainability and scale. The next two, I’ll kind of go through fast. There is, yeah. Um, partner commitment to marketplace revenue. So what do you really want Drive from a revenue perspective, right. How do you get your leaders bought in on that, and how do you set a goal that dictates what you’re doing? [00:07:28] Louise Strandoo: And then how do you define sales alignment? From a structural perspective to say we’re gonna remove friction that could get in the way of the field selling this thing. We’re gonna remove things that are, um, negating reps from wanting to go through marketplace because it’s impacting their comp. Yeah. Or it’s really hard. [00:07:46] Louise Strandoo: All of that kind of structural stuff goes into the sales alliance. [00:07:49] Vince Menzione: So there’s, yeah. I wanted to take this apart a little bit too, if you don’t mind. No [00:07:52] Louise Strandoo: problem. [00:07:53] Vince Menzione: Because I think about this a lot. So when you start talking about an organization, you’re talking about what this, we’ll call it an ISV Sure. Or an si, but. [00:08:00] Vince Menzione: You know, ISPs primarily is where it all started. They need to get their internal operational excellence. Right, exactly. Which means their, their ops piece. Yep. And their sales execution. They’re gonna to market all those things. The sales alignment side. Is that their sales teams [00:08:18] Louise Strandoo: correct. [00:08:19] Vince Menzione: Are compensated properly so that they don’t go around the systems. [00:08:22] Vince Menzione: Exactly right. They’re aligned. They’re aligned to go drive the right results. [00:08:25] Louise Strandoo: Exactly. [00:08:26] Vince Menzione: Because they’ve made commitments as well. [00:08:28] Louise Strandoo: Yeah. [00:08:28] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:08:29] Louise Strandoo: And I always talk about marketplace, like it is transformation. It’s different. It’s not what you’re doing today. [00:08:35] Vince Menzione: That’s right. [00:08:35] Louise Strandoo: Salespeople, rightly so. They don’t wanna introduce something that’s gonna add a complexity to the deal. [00:08:43] Louise Strandoo: They’re like, why would AWS wanna be involved? Stay away. So if that is already there and then on top of that Mm, they don’t get paid as much when they go direct. [00:08:53] Vince Menzione: Right? Right. [00:08:54] Louise Strandoo: They’re not gonna go through the market nice. [00:08:55] Vince Menzione: No, they’re not. [00:08:55] Louise Strandoo: They’re not gonna bring anything to you and the partnership team saying like, Hey, we really wanna figure out how to make this engine work with AWS So we have to do as much as we can to remove that friction from the experience. [00:09:06] Vince Menzione: So, you know, you mentioned private offers, which made me think about like product-led growth versus private offers. ’cause it’s, it feels like marketplace from the beginning. It’s changed. It [00:09:15] Louise Strandoo: has, [00:09:16] Vince Menzione: you’ve been doing this for a number of years. You were first to market with a marketplace. There was, I’ll call a lot of friction because there was channels and other, other routes to market direct selling. [00:09:27] Vince Menzione: Tell us, take us through some of those experiences. Yeah, yeah. Like what was that like? And then obviously you built cos because you had a lot of field engagement with these organizations trying to get them to go do it the right way. [00:09:38] Louise Strandoo: Right? [00:09:39] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:09:39] Louise Strandoo: So it’s interesting actually, when we built the marketplace. [00:09:42] Louise Strandoo: It was completely like a product-led growth motion, as in let’s just figure out a way to let AWS customers find amis in the marketplace. Developers are gonna go get it, and they’re just gonna buy it without any additional push from the field or like co-sell. That doesn’t need to happen. Then we heard from customers, Hey, this is great. [00:10:02] Louise Strandoo: But what we really want is also to be able to buy bigger contracts. We wanna customize our contracts, we wanna negotiate price when we’re buying this on behalf of, you know, large organizations. We’re not just buying what’s on the shelf. We need something more custom. So we introduced this concept of private offers to make sure that we could bring all of that customization into the process. [00:10:23] Louise Strandoo: And then we heard from customers saying, uh, we want to purchase from our preferred channel partners. We really wanna make sure that we’re, you know, not losing that source of, um, engagement with our really critical partners. So we had to figure out, hey, how can we make it so that we’re not competing with the channel? [00:10:41] Louise Strandoo: ’cause we’re not really a channel at all. Right. So we had to go and build our platform that allowed for channel partners to sell through the marketplace and augment that private offer piece to say, Hey, if you want, you can have a channel partner resell your product through the marketplace. So today we kind of see all of those as just different routes to market and different ISVs are gonna embrace different routes to market. [00:11:04] Louise Strandoo: First, the really important thing about costs is that it’s. Pushing partners to think about bringing their go to market strategy that works outside of the partnership to the marketplace. Mm-hmm. So if you’re an ISV that doesn’t sell with channel today, don’t start with channel partners on the marketplace. [00:11:21] Louise Strandoo: Right. If you don’t do product-led growth today, probably figure that out before you start doing it on the marketplace. Yeah. But if you’re doing those things, if you’re not doing those things, you should look at why not, and could we be doing those things and then we have the ways to bring it into your strategy with AWS marketplace. [00:11:38] Vince Menzione: So what separates the partners who kind of build this flywheel of success that you describe from those who treat it maybe as a side project? And do you, do you see less and less of that today too? I wanna, I wanna ask you. [00:11:50] Louise Strandoo: No, I think, um, the more mature the marketplace gets [00:11:57] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:11:58] Louise Strandoo: The more obvious some of the, uh, characteristics of success become and the more important. [00:12:06] Louise Strandoo: Embodying that framework becomes for partners as they grow to become the next billion dollar seller, right? And become the next a hundred million dollar seller. Um, I think a couple things come to mind for me. The first thing is that like at AWS overall, we talk a lot about like resilient architecture. We talk a lot about what does it look like to drive successful transformation. [00:12:29] Louise Strandoo: All of that has to happen in the partnership. Partners that have really strong marketplace motions with AWS, they do not have single points of failure. They are not expecting an alliance lead to manage everything and then have the business collapse if they leave. [00:12:46] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:12:46] Louise Strandoo: They figure out how to delegate and get buy-in from leadership so that they have multiple folks invested in the strategy for multiple angles so that there’s scalability and sustainability. [00:12:58] Louise Strandoo: Without that. You could do all the things right with costs and if there’s res, if there’s no resiliency, if there’s, if there’s a single point of failure, it doesn’t scale and it doesn’t last. [00:13:09] Vince Menzione: It’s so funny ’cause you haven’t seen my seven principles of, of successful partnering, but we talk about growth mindset, we talk about executive commitment and then clarity on your vision and what you’re hoping to achieve. [00:13:21] Louise Strandoo: Yeah. [00:13:22] Vince Menzione: Like that’s your internal victory. You’ve gotta get those things right. That’s exactly what you just said. A hundred [00:13:26] percent. [00:13:26] Louise Strandoo: And you can’t, you, you know, like if you don’t have that executive sponsorship, [00:13:30] Vince Menzione: yeah, [00:13:32] Louise Strandoo: great. You’ve done the cost framework, but where are you gonna go with it? [00:13:35] Vince Menzione: And it’s not just the sponsorship, it’s. [00:13:38] Vince Menzione: Up in, from the top of the organization all the way down to the selling floor. Completely. Right? [00:13:42] Louise Strandoo: Completely. [00:13:42] Vince Menzione: Everybody has to be aligned. Resources, investments all need to be aligned to this. Mm-hmm. [00:13:47] Louise Strandoo: Mm-hmm. [00:13:47] Vince Menzione: We’re speaking the same language earlier. A hundred percent. I love it. I love it. I love it. Um, so what does, we talked about product-led growth, but I want to maybe jump in here a little bit more. [00:13:58] Vince Menzione: Because I think it’s, it’s becoming more prevalent today, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s like, you know, we talked about private offer. It was really private offers, at least my perspective was a few years ago, I wanna buy something from you. Oh, you have a cloud commitment. I can access the cloud commitment. [00:14:13] Louise Strandoo: Yeah. [00:14:14] Vince Menzione: And so it was always the private offer thing that was going on behind the scenes, which required a lot of internal resources to go drive. [00:14:19] Louise Strandoo: Yep. [00:14:20] Vince Menzione: Let’s talk about product led growth. ’cause that becomes a fly more of a flywheel that’s automated Yeah. And allows you to sell while you’re sleeping kind of thing, you know? [00:14:28] Louise Strandoo: Totally. [00:14:29] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:14:30] Louise Strandoo: So I think, um, we have heard a lot from customers saying, okay, when we really need to negotiate and we need something custom, we wanna be able to do that. [00:14:40] Louise Strandoo: But we also wanna be able to purchase things quickly. We don’t wanna have to go out to dinner every time we need to upgrade, uh, like our licenses and get a new contract. We wanna be able to experiment and pick the things that resonate best with the line of business users that are, you know, increasingly taking some of that buying power. [00:14:59] Louise Strandoo: And I think especially now that we’re entering into, you know, the unprecedented, unprecedented times, it’s everything is AI like. There is more, um, pressure than ever to have users quickly figure out, does something add value to me and my business right now? And if it does, then I’m gonna keep using it, and if it doesn’t, I’m gonna go to the next thing. [00:15:22] Guest: Right. [00:15:22] Louise Strandoo: Product led growth is really about eliminating some of that I would say. Paperwork at the start of the process and putting the power in the hands of the user to say, can this product solve your challenge? And as more and more buyers are looking at Agen solutions, they wanna be able to try something, see if it works, and then quickly buy it without having to go through a whole bunch of steps because they have work that needs to be done right now. [00:15:54] Louise Strandoo: So the marketplace, that was our roots, like we started with this PLG motion. So we have all of that foundation to do it, and we’ve spent a lot of time over the last two, three years, like really investing in that from our engineering and roadmap perspective to build a whole bunch of features and capabilities that support product-led growth. [00:16:11] Louise Strandoo: We have things like free trials request, demo request, a private offer if you want to. Um, we introduced something, you know, last year that was an express private offer experience. Hey, you know, you want custom pricing. Request it and we’re gonna give it to you right away because the vendor has populated rate cards. [00:16:26] Louise Strandoo: Right? So all of those things I think are really important right now to say, yeah, when your customers like, wanna get going, now let’s stop. Putting barriers in the way and let your product actually show its value immediately. [00:16:38] Vince Menzione: And you were actually putting buttons or making buttons available Yeah. For people’s websites. [00:16:42] Vince Menzione: Exactly. So they could just say, click here and [00:16:43] Louise Strandoo: buy. Absolutely. We buy with a Ws. You can click from your own website, your own marketing pages to route them to the marketplace. If that’s the preferred way to transact, [00:16:50] Vince Menzione: yeah, why not? [00:16:51] Louise Strandoo: Yeah. [00:16:52] Vince Menzione: So you mentioned ai. We talked a little bit, I call it the tectonic shifts. [00:16:56] Vince Menzione: We, we’ve seen this incredible transformation happening so fast. And now we’re talking about agents. Right. And, uh, John Yo was over here from, uh, earlier from Sugar talking about like, what happens if the buyer is an agent? [00:17:08] Louise Strandoo: Totally. [00:17:09] Vince Menzione: Let’s talk about that. [00:17:10] Louise Strandoo: Yeah. I mean, I think that PLG and like is the right thing to enable a agentic procurement. [00:17:18] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:17:19] Louise Strandoo: If, um, you know, like in the, uh. 2019 when private offers were like, that was the big boom. We were like getting people to sign up on the marketplace. All we were focused on was private offers. So many sellers would have products on the marketplace where you’d click and purchase it and it would just say, thanks for buying, and it’d be like, we’ll get in touch with you and like a 24 hours and then we’ll figure it out. [00:17:42] Louise Strandoo: No worries. Thanks for buying. If that doesn’t work. If you’re an agent, it doesn’t work. An agent would be like, okay, this is like a dead end, right? Yeah. Agents are gonna look for products that they can purchase and begin using instantaneously. So yeah, product-led growth is like a really good, um, strategy that ISVs can use to future proof their business and make sure that they’re not just catering to an evolved. [00:18:06] Louise Strandoo: You know, procurement persona who maybe is looking for that faster transaction, but also preparing for that agent persona. Yeah. That is gonna be helping make software procurement scale. [00:18:17] Vince Menzione: So what do the partners in the room need to do to rethink how they think about this? [00:18:22] Louise Strandoo: I think there’s a couple things. I think you know, number one, you can look at the cost framework and start to use it as a jumping off point to evaluate your business. [00:18:31] Louise Strandoo: You can look through a bunch of resources that we’ve put out around costs, and one of the first blogs that I wrote has a Buzzfeed style quiz. You can go through and be like, where are we at? And if you realize after you run through that exercise that you’re farther away from where you wanna be in terms of partnering with AWS, it’s a really good dump like starting point to be like, great, here’s the challenges. [00:18:56] Louise Strandoo: But the biggest message I would relay to the partners is. Do not wait to try to go build this and then bring it to your executives and say, look what I built. It’s not gonna go anywhere. You need to go and use that as the cry to your leadership team. Like escalate. Now here’s the opportunity that we have with AWS. [00:19:17] Louise Strandoo: Let’s look at all of the awesome studies that we and our partners have put out over the years. Look at your competitors that are in the marketplace, your competitors that are partnering with AWS, and start there by saying, we’re. Behind or we’re missing in these areas. We could be doing, you know this, to make our product more a ag agentic ready. [00:19:37] Louise Strandoo: We could be doing more in marketplace to ensure that we’re capitalizing on the private offer business, and we need to figure out how we’re gonna drive commitment now so we can go and build this if you try to build it. Then show the value later. It’s gonna be really hard to then be pushing that boulder up the hill. [00:19:55] Louise Strandoo: So the more that you can lean into getting the sponsorship early on, you’re gonna have a much easier time then navigating, you know, all the hard work that comes with partnership co-sell, um, and, and everything kind of fun that we get to do once we get to go to market with our partners. [00:20:10] Vince Menzione: Do you have one piece of advice for each one of the. [00:20:13] Vince Menzione: Conditions or characteristics for, for, for this group to follow or [00:20:17] Louise Strandoo: think about? I think that, um, the, we didn’t talk about the last one, which is a good one to end on, which is enablement. [00:20:22] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:20:23] Louise Strandoo: Enablement starts with like most of the time, ISVs in particular, and this, it goes for channel partners as well. [00:20:30] Louise Strandoo: They’re like, we gotta enable the field go and enable all the salespeople why they should do all this stuff. You have to do these things like in some sequence though. So if you go and enable the field, everybody do marketplace and they’re like, how? Where do we go, right? Do we send you the leads? Are we slacking you? [00:20:47] Louise Strandoo: Like are we emailing? Like what do we do? You have to then go back and be like, actually, our operational excellence isn’t sorted out. We need to do that first. And who needs to be enabled from that side of the house? Like don’t forget to enable your rev ops teams, your deal desk teams, all of the teams that are kind of essential to making your partnership with AWS Hum need to be enabled in the way that is relevant for their business. [00:21:10] Louise Strandoo: So when you, you know, think about like what do you need to do across all the pillars? It’s gonna be different depending on what your go-to-market focus is. If you’re a hundred percent focused on selling through SIS today and through channel, maybe product-led growth is not the top priority, but then you need to go and figure out, okay, so how have we. [00:21:28] Louise Strandoo: Figured out which partners we wanna work with on AWS and how have we enabled them and have we communicated that enablement to our salespeople? Are we removing unnecessary barriers to them transacting? That’s what you really gotta figure out. So it’s really about looking at how you execute outside of marketplace, outside AWS, figuring out what that, what are the strongest pieces that you do in your business today, across those pillars, and then asking to replicate that with your partnership with AWS. [00:21:56] Vince Menzione: Nice. So to the room here is, um, if someone in this room doesn’t, does one thing differently on the marketplace, what should it be? [00:22:08] Louise Strandoo: There’s so many things I can think about. I think like first [00:22:12] Vince Menzione: you’re coaching ’em [00:22:13] Louise Strandoo: individually, [00:22:13] Vince Menzione: by the way. Just think about it that way. [00:22:15] Louise Strandoo: One of the first things like, it depends on where you’re like, where you’re at in your journey. [00:22:18] Louise Strandoo: So like, quick show of hands, who is, um, a partner that is like using the marketplace today? [00:22:26] Vince Menzione: There’s quite a few actually. [00:22:27] Louise Strandoo: Okay. Awesome. Thank you for helping drive the marketplace. So for those of you that raised your hands, like my sentiment to you all would be figure out how you are incorporating marketplace as the center of your strategy with AWS. [00:22:44] Louise Strandoo: We are increasingly using marketplace as the point of scale for all things about partnership. All things funding are like increasingly requiring some hook into marketplace. So we can actually provide more funding and scale increase like more. So think about like how do you use marketplaces that like center of your partnership, um, for those of you that are not on the marketplace today and are thinking like, is this something that is valuable to me? [00:23:15] Louise Strandoo: Is this something that I should think about and do? You should absolutely. Go look at who are your competitors? Who are the folks that are already out there on the marketplace and, and why aren’t you there? And then you should start to look at what are the characteristics of successful sellers to map out What could we do and what’s the kind of order of operations that we should take to figure out like, how do we get there? [00:23:40] Louise Strandoo: How do we have a plan from the beginning to get buy-in for our partnership with AWS so that we’re not going about it, expecting that it’s gonna just like drive a bunch of leads to the business. It’s not what it does well, but it is gonna help accelerate the way that you co-sell with AWS, which can be a tremendous value add when done appropriately. [00:23:58] Louise Strandoo: So I think, yeah, like figure out the right way that it’s gonna unlock business value depending on what’s most important to your priority. Um. Today [00:24:08] Vince Menzione: we have about three and a half minutes, and I, I’m eager to see if there’s any questions. I, I, um, I, John’s right here with the mic and I love that. I love the, want to get the interaction here in the room. [00:24:19] Louise Strandoo: Yeah, [00:24:20] Vince Menzione: it’s a great group. [00:24:25] Guest: Oh, [00:24:29] Vince Menzione: can they light up that mic? Maybe [00:24:33] Louise Strandoo: Good. [00:24:37] Vince Menzione: There you go. That’s fine. There you go. It’s working. Alright. [00:24:41] Guest: Thank you so much. This is a really great presentation, first of all. I love it. Um, I’m actually part of the, uh, the GSI, so I work cognizant. My name is Ana Hill, um, and I’m manage alliances with ServiceNow. Um, our goal is in the really near future to really engage with all the hyperscalers in sell. [00:25:00] Guest: So that’s one thing. But my interesting, my question is how do you, how, how does AWS measure success? Of the partners who are on your platform, what are the metrics? How do you determine which partners are actually successful and what other partners can use to learn from that? [00:25:19] Louise Strandoo: Yeah, that’s such a great question. [00:25:21] Louise Strandoo: So, um, something that I think is like super helpful that you bring up is cost is not a, um, a scorecard that says everybody that does all these things is a good partner. It’s basically inputs that we have come up with that are supposed to help with the partnership outcomes. Um, so partners, we measure a whole bunch of different things. [00:25:47] Louise Strandoo: I think PDMs and my team carry goals across like seven different categories. There’s a couple of big things that we look at. We look at the revenue that you drive through the marketplace, so whether that’s through private offers or through your self-service business or through. Selling through a reseller, or if you are the reseller, like what is that resell business or driving? [00:26:05] Louise Strandoo: Um, we look at what are the opportunities that you’re bringing and sharing with AWS and that you’re launching. So through our lead sharing mechanism. Not only what are you launching, but what are you sharing with us that is qualified that you’re bringing the field into? Um, we look at things like migrations and migration, realized revenue. [00:26:25] Louise Strandoo: How are you helping drive customers to the cloud? And how are you helping customers not just get everything set up, but you start actually using it. Um, so we really are gonna look across like a multitude of those metrics and when we look at like which partners are kind of leading the way. We’re gonna start to look at the revenue in those buckets, right? [00:26:44] Louise Strandoo: Like who’s sharing and bringing and growing with us? Who’s bringing more opportunities to engage before it happens on the marketplace? Who’s actually completing that transaction? And then who are helping who, who are the partners? Kind of like leading those big types of transformations, migrations, and, and realize revenue. [00:27:00] Louise Strandoo: This is really great. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:04] Vince Menzione: Thank you. Any other questions? Come on. We’ve got 30 seconds left. We have time for that one last question. Run over there. John. Come on. [00:27:17] Guest: Thank you again, a great, uh, presentation. One question I had is, uh, this morning, right Jay from, uh, oia, right? He identified a whole bunch of, uh, companies that are doing. [00:27:28] Guest: More than a billion dollars in revenue with AWS. [00:27:30] Louise Strandoo: Mm-hmm. [00:27:31] Guest: What would you say are one or two top qualities among these companies that help some drive? I can give [00:27:36] Louise Strandoo: six. And they’re all of these. Yes. [00:27:39] Vince Menzione: The cost, [00:27:40] Louise Strandoo: but like, I think, um, so I love it. Yeah. My, my team we’re working on some content to better capture, like Yeah. [00:27:48] Louise Strandoo: You, you’ve gotten there, you’ve done the six basic things. Now what happens when you’re a billion dollar business? What does it look like there? It’s a lot of the same stuff, right? Like billion dollar billers on the marketplace. They embody that resilience, for example, in their operational mechanisms. [00:28:03] Louise Strandoo: They’re moving beyond the point of there being like one person that creates private offers and they’re like just part of the partnership team. They activate their, um, their deal desk to really manage private offers and marketplace business at scale. They’re integrating their pipeline to share deals proactively through their CRM system and they have really targeted enablement that is. [00:28:24] Louise Strandoo: Really pushing to the field to make sure that every person in their team understands the value of cloud value of AWS and how marketplace accelerates the pipeline. So the more mature that you become as a marketplace seller, like the more that cost is relevant to help keep you on track and be that kind of north star to say like, you could do a cool bunch of stuff with us, but here’s really where you wanna check and see, like what can you do to evolve the business to the next stage? [00:28:49] Vince Menzione: What you’ve said is so like impactful and we have some experts in the room that do this. They help these organizations better understand it’s really getting into your field organization to help them understand how to. How to show up for meetings with AWS re, like how to, how to, uh, co-sell together, how to think about going after these opportunities. [00:29:09] Vince Menzione: What, when you’re, when you’re talking to customers, potential customers about their cloud commitments, like what are the right questions to ask in the pro? There’s so many things, like I’m sure the costs six has like 150 each [00:29:21] Louise Strandoo: Easily [00:29:21] Vince Menzione: steps. Yeah. You know, to it. [00:29:24] Louise Strandoo: Yeah. And I think like, just to follow on that. [00:29:26] Louise Strandoo: Um, we have partners who have gone and they’ve been like, okay, we’re getting a strategic collaboration agreement with AWS. We’re getting funding, and if they don’t have this, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. It fails. So this is really like, yeah, it’s about building that resilient architecture to say, if we go big, do we have the execution plan to succeed? [00:29:47] Louise Strandoo: You can’t start with a plan to say, give us a bunch of funding and we’ll go do it. Your salespeople will say. Know what that is. Don’t care. Yeah. So you have to put all of that, you know, all of those building blocks in first to make sure that we can actually execute. [00:30:01] Vince Menzione: You need alignment from the executive suite down to the selling floor. [00:30:05] Louise Strandoo: A hundred percent. [00:30:06] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:30:06] Louise Strandoo: Yep. [00:30:06] Vince Menzione: That’s really what it’s all about. [00:30:07] Louise Strandoo: Yep. [00:30:08] Vince Menzione: Louise, thank you so much. It’s been incredible. So great to have you join us. Thank you [00:30:15] so [00:30:15] Louise Strandoo: much. Yes, thank [00:30:16] Vince Menzione: you. [00:30:16] Louise Strandoo: Thank you, [00:30:16] Vince Menzione: thank you. Thanks for listening to The Ultimate Partner Podcast. If today’s conversation resonated. Share it with a partner leader in your network. [00:30:26] Vince Menzione: Subscribe where you listen, and head over to the Ultimate partner.com for show notes related content and the resources for this episode. And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live event in Reston, Virginia, October 26th through October 28th. Until next time, keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything.

SynopsisToday's date in 1914 marks the birthday of one of Puerto Rico's most fascinating composers! Born in Ukraine under the name Yakov Ovcharov, he came to the United States in 1923, changed his name to Jack Delano, and in the 1930s became a photographer for Roosevelt's New Deal programs. In 1941, he was sent to Puerto Rico on a shoot and fell in love with the island. After Pearl Harbor, he was drafted by the Army Air Corps to film U.S. forces in the South Pacific, but in 1946 returned to Puerto Rico to stay. Delano then started writing music incorporating Puerto Rican folk material, and even works performed by the island's symphony orchestra. In his spare time he was also a notable cartoonist, poet, professor, architectural designer and founder of Puerto Rico's first publicly funded educational television station. In 1951, he directed Los Peloteros, a movie about poor rural kids' love of baseball which became a classic of Puerto Rican cinema, and he composed its film score as well — why are we not surprised?As they would say on the island, Jack Delano was chévere — a quite remarkable fellow!Music Played in Today's ProgramJack Delano (1914-1997): “Allegretto Grazioso” from Sonatina; Duo Classico; Suellen Hershman, flute; David Witten, piano; Musical Heritage Society; MM-512502

半導體與記憶體成為本波市場賣壓重心，即使科技巨頭財報陸續登場，仍出現「財報優、股價跌」的反應。與此同時，FOMC 會後美債殖利率再度走高，中東局勢反覆再次推升油價。 本集邀請美國研究員 Ralice 與台灣研究員 Jat，解析 Warsh 主持下的聯準會政策轉向，以及 Microsoft、Meta、Alphabet、Tesla 最新財報，掌握 AI 變現、資本支出與自由現金流轉弱的關鍵訊號。

AI is everywhere, but are property management companies asking the right questions before implementing it? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, Jason Hull sits down with Mo Hussain to discuss why successful AI adoption has far less to do with technology and far more to do with operational clarity. Instead of chasing the latest AI tools, Mo introduces his Measure, Map, Automate framework to identify operational bottlenecks, uncover hidden profit leaks, and build workflows that actually improve business performance.  Together, they explore why clean data is the foundation of automation, how undocumented processes create costly inefficiencies, and why AI should enhance human decision-making rather than replace it.   You'll Learn [00:00] Meet Mo Hussain and the Measure, Map, Automate Framework [03:20] Why Most Companies Ask the Wrong AI Questions [08:10] The Role of Clean Data in AI Success [12:45] Mapping Workflows Before Automating Them [15:30] The Process Myth and Better Operational Systems [21:10] Building Accountability Into AI Workflows [25:15] Designing AI Agents That Actually Perform [27:45] Turning Operational Data Into Business Growth [29:15] Final Advice for Property Management Leaders Quotables "AI value really truly is workflow value." Mo Hussain  "AI depends on trusted operational data." Mo Hussain  "The winners are not gonna be the companies that have the most amount of data, but they're the ones that can convert data into consistent operating actions." Mo Hussain  Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason Hull (00:00) welcome everybody. I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry.   At DoorGro, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. And my guest today is Mo Hussain, and we're going to be talking about how property management companies can stop drowning in data and start turning it into real operational growth. In this episode,   Mo is breaking down the measure, map, and automate framework that he has built and approach an approach to uncovering hidden margins, reducing manual oversight, and getting more value out of every door in your portfolio.   right.   is Mo Hussain. Mo, welcome to the show.   Mo Hussein (01:01) Hey Jason, happy to be here.   Jason Hull (01:03) So today we're going to be chatting a little bit about how property management companies can stop drowning in data and start turning it into real operational growth. And Mo's going to break down the measure, map, and automate framework, his approach for uncovering hidden margins, reducing manual oversight, and getting more value out of every door in your portfolio. So cool, measuring is important. We'll get into that. So before we get into that, Mo,   Can you give people a little bit of background on yourself? How did you get into entrepreneurism? How did you get connected to property management? And help everybody understand who Mo is. Yeah.   Mo Hussein (01:42) Yeah.   great question. So I I've been in this industry now for probably coming up on 20 years at this point. I I worked at some of the prop tech and software providers that are prevalent in the space. Namely, I worked at both YARTI App Folio, which are both kind of headquartered in in Santa Barbara. and a little bit over ten years ago, I started a consultancy and accounting CPA practice that specifically focuses on   Jason Hull (01:56) Namely, I worked at both YARDIE and at Folio, which are both kind of headquartered in in Santa Barbara. a little bit over ten years ago, I started a consultancy and accounting TPA practice that specifically focuses   on prop tech and real estate. So we offer consultations with implementations, custom reporting, operationalizing around technology, which is which is now the buzz around kind of AI and automation at this point.   Mo Hussein (02:11) Prop tech and real estate. So we offer consultations with implementations, custom reporting, operationalizing around technology, which is which is now the buzz around kind of AI and automation at this point. and then   we've also built products for the space to help with automations, help with you know accounting compliance and bringing visibility and custom reporting capabilities to operators. So kind of leveraging all the experience.   Jason Hull (02:25) And then we've also built products for the space to help with automations, help with you know, accounting compliance and bringing visibility and custom reporting capabilities to operators. So kind of leveraging all the experience   Mo Hussein (02:40) from working as a consultant and also as an accountant and even working as some of these tech providers now being a actual supplier in the industry.   Jason Hull (02:41) from working as a consultant and also as an accountant and even working as some of these tech providers now being a aqua supplier in the industry. Very cool. Very cool. So you're a little bit nerdy.   Mo Hussein (02:52) A little bit. Data. I love data. Right.   Jason Hull (02:53) Okay, so am I. So am I. All right. So   cool. So let's talk nerdy to me, Mo. All right. So let's let's chat about this. So let's get into it. So t tell us about this. Wha why is this wh how'd you come up with this framework? Why is this important? I love frameworks because frameworks are usually where we take something that we notice a pattern in, there's some complexity involved, and we make it simple. So explain to us.   Mo Hussein (02:59) Yeah.   Jason Hull (03:18) Where does the measure map and automate framework kind of come from?   Mo Hussein (03:22) Right, right. And this is this kind of stems from a conversation you probably have with plenty of your your clients and even prospects when you start engaging, you know, the the the very popular question now of how do we use AI? I want to streamline and automate. And it's a very loaded, it's a very loaded, fairly ambiguous question, right? How do we use AI? We want to implement AI into our operations, right?   Jason Hull (03:23) And this is this kind of stems from a conversation you probably have with plenty of your   You know, the the the the very popular question now, how do we use AI? It's a very loaded, fairly ambiguous question, right? How do we use AI? We want to implement AI more.   Mo Hussein (03:48) when conversely, like you know, operators and property managers should be starting with a different qu set of questions, right? Like how like where are we losing things like NOI, margin, time, control, or even consistency, right? AI really only matters when it connects and automation really only matters when it connects to a to a revenue lever or some type of a cost lever or productivity gain or or risk reduction, right?   Jason Hull (03:50) Conversely, like you know, operators, property managers should be starting with a different set of questions, right? Like how like where are we losing things like NOI, margin, time, control, or even consistency, right? AI really only matters when it connects in automation really only matters when it connects to a to a revenue lever or some type of a cost lever, productivity gain or or risk reduction,   right? Yeah. there's there's a couple   Mo Hussein (04:14) and there's there's a couple of key components   Jason Hull (04:16) key components in even conversations that you've probably even had with with property managers today is that firstly like you know operators today they already have a lot of data. They probably have access to a lot of different data sets across, you know, operations, but it's probably, you know, disconnected and disjointed and different reports and disconnected systems, hidden in spreadsheets and and dashboards that probably don't drive much much action, right? and everybody wants   Mo Hussein (04:17) in even conversations that you've probably even had with with property managers today is that firstly, like, you know, operators today, they already have a lot of data. They probably have access to a lot of different data sets across, you know, operations, but it's probably, you know, disconnected and disjointed and different reports and disconnected systems hidden in spreadsheets and and dashboards that probably don't drive much much action, right? and everybody wants to   Jason Hull (04:43) to automate and execute   Mo Hussein (04:43) automate and execute an   operational kind of workflow. But the hard part is not whether, you know, AI can really do something, but the hard part is whether a company even knows where value is leaking and who owns that action and and whether these workflows are even clear enough to to be able to automate. And that's kind of the premise of this framework is to kind of measure what that pain is, you know, map that workflow, automate that repetitive work and manage   Jason Hull (04:45) an operational kind of workflow. The hard part is not whether you know AI can really do something, but the hard part is whether a a company even knows where value is leaking and who owns that action and and whether these workflows are even clear enough to to be able to automate. And that's kind of the premise of this framework is to kind of measure what that pain is, you know, map that workflow, automate that repetitive work, and   manage ideally performance through some type of closed loop accountability. We just put an actual word to it, right? A framework to it, I'm sure   Mo Hussein (05:07) ideally performance through some type of a closed loop accountability. We just put an actual word to it and a framework to it, but I'm sure very   similarly to the conversations that you're probably having also even with customers.   Jason Hull (05:15) Very similarly to the conversations that you're probably having also with customers.   Yeah, yeah, got it. Yeah. it's interesting because we're now seeing a lot of these tech companies or tech forward companies that are kind of backtracking on AI a little bit. They were giving out basically blank checks to use AI as much as they could. Some were even creating sort of a contest internally, incentivizing like who could use the most tokens.   Mo Hussein (05:29) Mm.   Right.   You're right.   Jason Hull (05:41) Which is a little bit insane   to just give people a blank check as if that always the more tokens you burn, the more productivity is being created, right?   Mo Hussein (05:51) Right, right, right. And we're seeing, yeah, and you know, as we're seeing these newer models that are coming out, whether it's, you know, through Cloud, Anthropic or even these other these other LLMs, the token utilization is becoming more and more expensive, especially with these newer models. And so now the question of just like, hey, how is that utilization actually translating to actual business value? Right. And this was a question that eventually would have been would have been pushed, right?   Jason Hull (05:54) Yeah and you know.   Of just like, hey, how's that utilization actually translating to actual business value? Right.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Like how to use AI. Yeah. Bad question. A better question is how do we actually make sure we're creating more profit? How do we actually make sure we are lowering costs? Like   And that's the the idea, they think, well, AI must be so much cheaper than people. And what's interesting, I've also seen some reports lately showing the amount of money these different LLMs are losing right now. They're spending a massive amount of money to deliver AI to us at a super cheap price right now. And but they're losing money. Every time we're chatting, they're losing money.   Mo Hussein (06:47) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Right.   Jason Hull (07:01) And that's that's a wild business model. They're obviously hoping to win some sort of AI race. They're hoping to get us maybe in the future. And there's a lot of talk lately as well of people thinking we gotta shift to local models. Like we gotta I gotta run this AI stuff on my own computer and not be giving all my money to anthropic or open AI you know, open AI or whatever. So okay.   Mo Hussein (07:15) Mm-hmm.   Right, right.   Right.   Jason Hull (07:26) Cool. So let's continue on. Me measure, map and automate. Yeah. Yeah.   Mo Hussein (07:29) Yeah. Yeah. And   by the way, going on your point, Jason, it's you know, you you also, you know, creating automation and leveraging these models locally, it there's definitely value in that. But you know, now more than ever, f you know, teams are kind of distributed, right? And so ideally, if you've built automations and leveraging these L LMs and   Jason Hull (07:35) Yeah, y you also you know   Locally it is definitely that   Teams are kind of distributed, right? Yeah. Ideally, if you've built automations and leveraging these LLMs   and   Mo Hussein (07:52) And things of that sort.   You probably want to have like some type of an interface that's like cloud based, right? Or for folks to be able to kind of collaborate in some type of a ideally like a safe environment, right? and so measure, map and and automate. So you know, there's there's kind of those three components to be able to actually fully ideally leverage leverage AI. But   Jason Hull (07:55) some type of a an interface that's like cloud based, right? Or for folks to be able to kind of collaborate in some type of a ideally like a safe environment, right? yeah. So measure, map and and automate. So you know there's there's kind of those three components to be able to actually fully ideally leverage leverage AI but   there's there's a couple like kind of key core components that feel like   Mo Hussein (08:20) There's there's a couple of like kind of key core components that I feel like   is very important for folks to to really understand before they can they they can even take advantage of of AI, right? so one is you know AI, AI value really truly is workflow value. And so like the most the biggest opportunities when it comes to automation leveraging AI is things that are repetitive.   Jason Hull (08:25) is very important for folks to to really understand before they can they they can take advantage of of AI, right? so one is, you know, a AI AI value really truly is a workflow value. And so like the most   automation leveraging AI as things that are   repetitive, you know, judgment heavy, ideally high volume workflows. Think about things like you know, leasing follow-up, delinquency, turns, maintenance, triage, variance explanations. another another key thing to understand is you know AI depends on trusted ideal operational data. And so if you don't have accurate or clean property unit, resident, vendor,   Mo Hussein (08:44) you know, judgment heavy, ideally high volume workflows. Think about things like you know, leasing follow-up, d delinquency, terms, maintenance triage, variance explanations. another another key thing to understand is, you know, AI depends on trusted ideally operational data. And so if you don't have accurate or clean property unit, resident vendor   payment data and it's and it's inconsistent, you know, AI just   Jason Hull (09:10) payment data and it's and it's inconsistent, you know,   AI just helps accelerate the wrong answer, right? This notion of like hallucinations also kind of exist. and you know insights without ownership is is just is really just theater. And so although AI may identify a problem and recommend an action, things need to be routed, right? And asci you know action needs to be assigned, there needs to be some accountability that gets created there and then a measurement of of of   Mo Hussein (09:13) helps accelerate r the wrong answer, right? And the this notion of like hallucinations also kind of exist. and you know insights without ownership is is just is really just theater. And so although AI may identify a problem and recommend an action, things need to be routed, right? And as I you know action needs to be assigned. There needs to be some accountability that gets created there and then a measurement of of of a   of of a of a result.   Jason Hull (09:40) of of a of a   result. and then lastly like humans humans control still matters, right? Things that have a very high potential opportunity cost. you know, operators should be very careful on how they utilize AI. So, you know, things around fair housing, sensitive sensitive decisions like screenings, evictions, legal communication, you know, employee decisions and maybe even large payment loopholes and so   Mo Hussein (09:42) and then lastly like humans, humans control still matters, right? Things that have a very high potential opportunity cost. you know, operators should be very careful on how they utilize AI. So, you know, things around fair housing, sensitive sensitive decisions like screenings, evictions, legal communication, you know, employee decisions and maybe even large payment approvals. And so   Once we   have these kind of these table stake table stake items, if you will, kind of address, then you know we can move on to kind of you know the our framework of kind of measure, map, and automate. And so in each of these different components have different purposes, you know. The whole point of the measure step is is to quantify where pain exists and to validate kind of being buying versus buy like building. And so you want to ask things like where   Jason Hull (10:09) Once we have these kind of these table stakes stakeheads, if you will, kind of addressed, then you know, we can move on to kind of, you know, the our framework of kind of measure, map, and automate. And so and each of these different components have different purposes, you know. The whole point of the measure step is is to quantify where pain exists and to validate kind of being buying versus buy like building. And so you want to ask things   like where   Mo Hussein (10:36) where   time, where margin, where service quality or accountability is lost today, right? Examples can be things like, you know, days vacant, you know, delinquency rate, maintenance response times. These would be kind of like outputs like invoice coding time, reporting hours, renewal conversions, right?   Jason Hull (10:37) Where time, where margin, where service quality or accountability is lost today, right? Examples can be things like, you know, days vacant, you know, delinquency rate, maintenance response times. These would be kind of like outputs like invoice coding time, reporting hours, renewal conversions, right?   Yeah. Got it. Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. So you've got to be you have to have good data.   Which the crux of th where their data is all probably housed is inside of their property management software.   Mo Hussein (11:06) Right.   Jason Hull (11:07) And so hopefully that software is kinda tracking some of this stuff. But, you know, everybody's had a CRM that the team didn't put enough notes in. And then it becomes kind of useless, right? So you're like, what happened with Fred on that call earlier, you know, or previously? I I think I think we talked about this. Can't remember. Why aren't you putting in notes? And so then the flaw becomes the human in the loop in a lot of instances. But then you're saying, you know, also humans matter. Like   Mo Hussein (11:14) Right.   Right.   Jason Hull (11:34) Related to fair housing. We've got to have the human in the loop making decisions. I don't think it would go fair very well to be standing in front of a judge and say, Well, the AI messed this up. It wasn't me.   Mo Hussein (11:43) Right. Right.   Right. Yeah, that's very that's very correct. the the the other thing is is that you know software is a tool, right? So they you know, for like that example that you just gave of like, hey, you know, I had a conversation with Freddie or an owner or what have you, and you know, the notes weren't captured. And so if there's if if if if there's there needs to be also a cultural   Jason Hull (11:46) Yeah, that's very that's very   Yeah, they you know, put like that example that you just gave of like, Hey, you know, I had a conversation   And you know, the notes weren't captured. And so if there's if if if if there's there needs to be also   Mo Hussein (12:06) shift within the organization to become more performance kind of driven, right? And using, you know, places of truth. You know, I, you know, we use Salesforce in our own internal kind of CRM and you know, there's this old ad like this old saying of just, you know, hey, if it didn't happen to Salesforce, it didn't happen at all. In other words, if your system of record hasn't been updated and things haven't been added to it   Jason Hull (12:06) cultural shift within the organization to become more performance kind of driven, right? And using, you know, places of truth. You know, I you know, we use Salesforce in our own internal kind of CRM and you know, there's this this old like this old thing of just, you know, hey, if it didn't happen in Salesforce, it didn't happen at all. Right.   Mo Hussein (12:29) to to ensure that it is correct and accurate and up to date, then   Jason Hull (12:29) to it to to ensure that it is correct and accurate and up   to date, then the organization sees it as, you know, as it didn't happen. And somebody, you know, using anecdotal feedback like, well I did this, but I just didn't update this. And so that's it's very important that, you know, whatever system you're using to kind of measure different KPIs and metrics, that that, you know, that behaviors within the organization are shifting towards that. And it's it's something it's a cultural shift that needs to also   Mo Hussein (12:32) the organization sees it as you know as it didn't happen. And somebody, you know, using anecdotal feedback of like, well I did this, but I just didn't update this, it means it didn't happen. And so that's it's very important that, you know, whatever system you're using to kind of measure different KPIs and metrics, that that, you know, that behaviors within the organization are shifting towards that. And it's it's some it's a cultural shift that needs to also cascade   also from from leadership down as well.   Jason Hull (12:57) Cascade also from leadership down.   Yeah, the advantage we have nowadays with all the AI stuff that's come out is now pretty much everything gets transcribed everywhere. So calls get transcribed, notes can be created automatically. You can also go back and ha check the transcription on a call or a zoom call or recording, figure out what happened. So that you know, not leaving notes in the CRM is a little bit less of a problem than it was in the past.   So we've so we've chatted a bit about measure. What is what's important about mapping or map? Yeah. So this is this goes back to my previous point about like you know AI value being it it is workflow value. Yeah so you know you've measured you've identified you know your measurements and KPIs. So whatever those KPIs may be. Next what you need to do is map what the actual   Mo Hussein (13:30) The mapping. Yeah. So this is this goes back to my previous point about like, you know, AI value being it is workflow value. And so, you know, you've measured, you've identified, you know, your measurements and KPIs, you know, days vacant, delinquency, whatever those KPIs may be. Next, what you need to do is map what the actual what   the actual workflows that are happening, not how leadership or staff thinks it's happening.   Jason Hull (13:53) what the actual workflows are happening, not how leadership or staff thinks it's   happening. There's a very key kind of a distinction is that, you know, a lot of operators and teams kind of assume, hey, you know, we have a set process, but it may not be happening the way that they are envisioning or the way that they're assuming that this is happening. Yeah. And and map that entire workflow end to end.   Mo Hussein (13:59) The very key kind of distinction is that, you know, a lot of operators and teams kind of assume, hey, you know, we have a set process, but it may not be happening the way that they are envisioning or the way that they're assuming that this is happening. And and map that entire workflow end to end.   identify what systems are involved, where handoffs occur, where approvals are required.   Jason Hull (14:21) identify what systems are involved, where handoffs occur, where approvals are required,   Mo Hussein (14:27) where judgment calls are are are are kind of made. And so, you know, every company has, you know, things like experienced managers and accountants and maintenance folks and and they usually know what good looks like versus what bad looks like. And so AI here is to help kind of convert that tribal knowledge ideally into a repeatable operating model. And so examples of how that mapping   Jason Hull (14:28) where judgment calls are kind of made. And so every company has you know things like experienced managers and accountants and maintenance folks, and and they usually know what good looks like versus what bad looks like. And so AI here helped kind of convert that tribal knowledge ideally into an overviewable operative model. So examples of   that mapping would be is you know, hey, what is the entire need to lease workflow?   Mo Hussein (14:50) would be is, you know, hey, what is the entire lead to lease workflow? You know,   Jason Hull (14:54) You know, what is the work order to completion, you know? what is our renewal offer to sign and executed actual renewal? And so and actually and again documenting that, a a lot of organizations have some notion of what that workflow kinda looks like. but   Mo Hussein (14:54) What is the work order to completion? You know? what is our renewal offer to signed and executed actual renewal? And so and actually, and again, documenting that. A a lot of organizations have some notion of what that workflow kind of looks like. but you know, they   haven't actually done they may not have documented, or if they did, it's not updated and they have an out of date SOP or a process diagram.   Jason Hull (15:12) you know, they haven't actually gotten any INOT documents in or if they did, it's not updated and they have an out of data so P or a process diagram.   Mo Hussein (15:22) And that's that's and that's that's that's a very important kind of key aspect of kind of this process.   Jason Hull (15:22) and that's that's and that's that's that's a very important kind of key aspect of kind of this process. Yeah, yeah. Well I a lot of times I end up talking with clients and I've noticed kind of this pattern or trend in the industry of I call it the process myth where everybody thinks if we just had better processes   all of our hopes and dreams would come true when it comes to the off side of the business and we would be more profitable. And especially see this in the two to four hundred door range in single family or small multi-residential property management. And so the challenge there is th that it's impossible to create enough processes, KPIs, and systems to make mediocre people be great. But they pe that doesn't stop business owners from trying. They they're like   Mo Hussein (15:59) Right.   Right.   Jason Hull (16:04) They they they wake up in the morning, they're like, I want to play an impossible game today. And they they still try. And I call it the process myth because if you have really great people, even if your processes are garbage, that I've seen these businesses still perform well. But the reverse is not true. You have mediocre people, you could have insane amounts of systems and processes and stuff, and the business still has a lot of headaches and problems.   Mo Hussein (16:16) Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (16:29) And so I've kind of noticed this pattern. I call it the three levels of process. And level one is documentation. It's just like writing stuff out. But that's kind of like the owner's manual in the glove box of the car. Nobody looks at it, it doesn't get updated. You know, it's like it's it's it's gathering dust, and people don't actually, that's not actually how the processes are run. And over time, things gravitate towards ease or grace or what the flows best for the person doing the job.   Mo Hussein (16:39) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (16:57) Not for what's best for the job sometimes. And so it gravitates a little bit towards chaos or being worse. Then there's this level two, which is checklists. This is where people are using things like Asana or Process Street or Lead Simple or they some sort of checklist space system where now they're verifying the works getting done in a certain way. But checklist has its own problems in that it's very linear and not every process is linear.   Mo Hussein (16:59) Right, right.   Read simple. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (17:24) There's decisions   and splits and merges and sting things happening concurrently in property management. And so the challenge with checklist also it can tend to slow things down. It's not as efficient. So the next level and the problem I had with checklist, we used to use process street, is that it it if anytime a process got complicated, I had to build logic and you know, if-then sort of situations into it.   And it usually got to the point where I didn't even understand it. Like a year later, I'm looking at a process. I'm like, I had to retranslate this back into something that made sense to my brain. And I always, and the nerd had to be the one that did all the updates on it because nobody else could understand it. So then we eventually graduated to level three. So level three is visual workflow. This is for humans.   Mo Hussein (18:01) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (18:13) And so, and with with this, my tip to everybody listening, if you have a system, whether it's checklist or it's any of these three levels, you know, documentation, checklist, or visual workflow, that you your first two processes you make as an operator or as a business owner is how to create a process in this system is number one. And number two, how to QA.   Mo Hussein (18:26) Did   Jason Hull (18:37) A process that is made in the system to know it's actually a good one. If you just make those two, you don't have to do any of the other stuff. Everybody else can do it. You just make those two. That's my tip for all you business owners. And now with AI, you can start adding AI. Once you have things visually mapped out, it's you've got the map like you're talking about. Now you can figure out all right, where can AI take over some of this stuff? And where do we still need the human in the loop? Right. So yeah.   Mo Hussein (18:43) Mm.   And automation. Mm-hmm. Yep.   Yeah.   Right,   Jason Hull (19:05) So any tips for those listening to this that are already geeking out with AI, they're doing a little bit of this measuring and mapping and automating. What are some of the biggest challenges you've noticed where this kind of breaks down or people are making mistakes?   Mo Hussein (19:19) It's it's honestly it's the it's the you know, AI value. it's it's a lot of the small individual decisions that are made in a in a repetitive fashion and that that are made a lot that really are gonna unlock like true value for for any operator. And so like, you know, having very clean data, standardized, you know, systems of truth by what we mean by that is that, you know, hey, you know.   Jason Hull (19:20) It's it's honestly it's the it's the you know, AI value it's it's   like true value for for any op   clean data, standardized, you know, systems of truth. But what we mean by that is that, you know, hey,   you know, you know, whatever work order system that you're using, for example, has accurate, you know, work order data. People, you know, you're making a segment for actually closing out the work order when they complete it. Hey, the end of the week, I'm gonna now try to remember what I did earlier in the week.   Mo Hussein (19:47) you know, whatever work order systems that you're using, for example, has accurate, you know, work order data. People, you know, your maintenance technicians are actually closing out the work order when they complete it. Not just, hey, the end the week, I'm gonna now try to remember what I did earlier in the week.   Close it out. So the data is   the data can't be trusted, then AI is just going   Jason Hull (20:04) data the be trusted and AI   Mo Hussein (20:07) to cause additional kind of confusion. And so having accurate systems of record. And I gave that example of of of a work order when a technician kind of closes that, right? the process map, I think the you know, the three buckets are like three level that you kind of gave, I think is a great, great.   Jason Hull (20:20) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.   yeah.   level that you kinda gave I think it's a great,   great anecdote and framing of how processes should be kind of looked at. And and I think one thing that a lot of operators usually tend to overlook or assume is you know how things are being done versus how they actually are being done within the schemes, right? So an owner somebody at some point said, okay hey this is a process we're gonna take and then over time that just kind of got changed.   Mo Hussein (20:29) anecdote and framing of how processes should be kind of looked at. And and I think one thing that a lot of operators usually tend to overlook or assume is you know how things are being done versus how they actually are being done within the teams, right? It's an owner, somebody at some point said, okay, hey, this is the process we're gonna take. And then over time that just kind of got changed. And there   may be, you know, two different property managers   Jason Hull (20:55) And there may be, you know, two different property managers   Mo Hussein (20:58) operating in two different regions in the same company that are doing leasing renewal differently, right? That going back to that point that you mentioned about systematizing and having accountability loops and task base or like checklist items and ensuring that those things are actually done in that same quality and that same fashion is very, very key. And so getting data, like getting the right data, accurate data,   Jason Hull (20:58) operating in two different regions in the same company that are doing these things renewal differently. Right. That point that you mentioned about synthesizing and having accountability loops and task based or like checklist items and ensuring that those things are actually done in that same quality, in that same fashion is very, very key. And so getting data, getting the right data, accurate data   Mo Hussein (21:23) and then also like your process mapping and your   Jason Hull (21:24) And then also like your process mapping   and your processes kind of documented. I think I think the visual representation is a great way to have that. And those are the two key things that ninety percent of folks that are trying to leverage AI and automation and even the folks that are starting to try to jump into this space and try to automate and use AI for these things like usually we're like where where they're really struggling with. got it. Yeah, I think   Mo Hussein (21:26) processes kind of documented. I think I think the visual representation is a great way to have that. Those are the two key things that ninety percent of folks that are trying to leverage AI and automation and even the folks that are starting to try to jump into this space and trying to automate and use AI for these things like usually we're like we're where they're really struggling with.   Jason Hull (21:50) I was just on a webinar recently and they were talking about building AI agents and they were talking about if you want to make really effective AI agents, you need to give them a really good job description, just like a human. And what what's really funny is if you we coach clients on this a lot, but if we tell the clients to to go, we coach clients on   Creating job descriptions. We call our version of them R docs because each section starts with an R, like role, responsibility, et cetera, all the typical stuff. But then we have some additional sections that we found really paramount. So what we'll tell them to do is go ask your team members, give them this framework, and have them create their own R Doc. And then you take a look at this and see if that's what you would have created. Because it's never like what they think their job is. It's usually very different than what the business owner thinks their job is.   Mo Hussein (22:25) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Jason Hull (22:36) And maybe even different what the manager, the ops person thinks the job is, but then you can actually literally get on the same page with them. You can be like negotiate this and be like, this is what we think your priorities should be, and what your outcomes should be, and what we want you to be able to accomplish. And this is helpful for them to know what they're aiming for so that they can please you because your team members want to please you if they're good. But usually there's a big disconnect, like you're saying, between what   Mo Hussein (23:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (23:05) the the employee thinks their j role and job is versus what their manager thinks they should be doing versus what the business owner thinks everybody should be doing. And so nobody's on the same page. And then you're everybody's roles are a little messy. And then you're going, let's give them processes now to work on. And they're not even clear on what their job is or what their role is. Yeah. And so same thing if you were going to build an AI agent and you were like, I want you to try and be good at everything. And then suddenly it's like really   Mo Hussein (23:29) Right.   Jason Hull (23:34) Hallucinating a lot and it's messing everything up and yeah. And it's not a realistic creature, you know, just like some people give create job descriptions that are for like four different personality types. Right. And then they hire somebody that maybe can actually do all four things, and we call those really highly adaptable, weird creatures entrepreneurs. And then they wonder why that property manager left and stole all their clients.   Mo Hussein (23:34) Horrible.   Right.   Yeah.   Jason Hull (23:57) Instead of finding somebody that's like really good at being one thing. Right. Yeah. And that's how you should see Asia.   Mo Hussein (24:00) Right. That that that that role clarity is very, very, very important, right? And that's how you should see agents as well, is that   like, hey, it's like a trained employee. And so you should exp you should expect the same level of, you know, investment involvement, if you will, and trying to and try to help them be the best of like, you know, whether it's a leasing agent, a maintenance coordinator, or whatever that their role may be. And I I think another aspect is and I'm curious how like how   Jason Hull (24:12) you should expect the same level of you know investment involvement if you will and trying to and try to help them be the best of like you know whether it's a leasing agent a maintenance coordinator or whatever that their role may be and I I think another aspect is and I'm curious that   like how you know when you guys are having conversations with clients around role descriptions stuff it's the concept of ownership like hey what you know how to how to align ownership to and lining that up to hopefully the mental business   Mo Hussein (24:28) you know, when you guys having conversations with clients around role descriptions and stuff, it's the concept of ownership. Like, hey, what, you know, how to how to align ownership to and lining that up to hopefully an eventual business outcome or KPI   or something so that, you know, their performance drives also the business performance, right? How have you guys had this conversation or how do you talk about kind of that concept? I can kind of allude to it without kind of explicitly calling it out.   Jason Hull (24:42) Kate guy or something so that you know their performance derives also the business performance, right? Yeah. How do you talk about kind of that concept? You kind of allude to it without kind of explicitly calling   it out. Yeah, I think well, sometimes I'll just totally call a business owner out on things. But I think what I think will be interesting is people are building starting to build agents. I think that they should.   They should have an understanding of personality types. I think they should have an understanding maybe or a conversation with AI about what Myers Briggs type might be good for this agentic role. And because like somebody that's really good at like strategy and the strategist role, which would be like an INTJ in Myers Briggs, might be good at some operational stuff, but they would be really terrible at customer service.   Mo Hussein (25:19) Mm-hmm.   Jason Hull (25:33) Because a lot of INTJs don't even like humans, right? And so they're logical thinkers and they're really judging and they're practical and they're in you know introverted and they're really bad at understanding how the other person feels or even expressing that. And so you're you you don't want to create these try and create AI AI agents that are multiple split personality types, because I don't think they're gonna be as effective. And you can't also, just like you wouldn't want somebody building the process.   QE QA QA of the process. You don't want them both. You don't want AI to be checking itself. Right. Right. The the brain that had problems doing the messing things up, maybe, or didn't do it totally right. You don't want them checking their own work. Right. And so, yeah, so I think this is going to be interesting that people are going to be building agents and they usually think just logically here's the context it needs, here's the role, whatever. But I think also maybe give it the personality that it.   Mo Hussein (26:08) Right, right.   Right.   Jason Hull (26:29) What's the disc assessment for this person, this agent? What's the Myers Briggs type for this agent? And then if especially if they're communicating with humans or doing a task that you want them to be somewhat human like, they're going to be much better at doing this if you give it you create them in the right way. Just an idea.   the other thing to know as a business owner, you need to know who you are so that you can build your dream team around you. So your advisors, whether they're agentic or human, your advisors, your team members, it should be built ultimately around you thriving and being healthy in your own business so that you've got the tea the tools and the resources that fit you. But most business owners make the mistake.   Of trying to build the business around the business and then wonder why they're miserable and why they're kind of a slave to their own business. Right.   Mo Hussein (27:16) Right. Right. Right.   Jason Hull (27:20) So anyway, Mo, measure, map, automate, MMA. Doesn't involve fighting too much. You know, like mixed martial arts. It's a little bit on the, you know, less physical side of things. fun chatting about.   Mo Hussein (27:26) No.   Jason Hull (27:34) all the the AI stuff that's going. How can people anything else that you want to add to our conversation here about yeah this model? And then could you tell us a little bit about what you do and how maybe you help property managers with this stuff? Yeah. Yeah. so I guess just to put it succinct, kind of a a sandwich kind of takeaway. So yeah, operators need to wait for a perfect AI.   Mo Hussein (27:48) Yeah. Yeah. so I guess just to put it succinctly, kind of a a a sandwich kind of takeaway. So, yeah, operators don't need to wait for a perfect AI strategy.   Start by identifying, measuring where value exists, where things are leaking, then mapping workflows and then deciding what can be safely automated and measuring whether those actions improve performance. and so   Jason Hull (28:00) Identifying, measuring where value exists, where things are leaking, then mapping workflows, and then deciding what can be safe and automated, and measuring whether.   Mo Hussein (28:10) like you know, over time we'll see that you know the winners are not gonna be the companies that have the most amount of most amount of data, but they're the ones that can convert data into consistent operating actions across how they've operated every door. if you we help clients with you know putting together SOPs, also mapping their technology needs, where where they're where they're having operational leaks in the business can be   Jason Hull (28:10) So like you know over time we'll see that you know the winners are not gonna be the companies that have the most amount of most amount of data, but they're the ones that can convert data into consistent operating actions across how they've operated every door. if you we help clients with you know putting together SOPs, also mapping their technology needs, where where they're where they're having operational leaks and the business   can be optimized.   Mo Hussein (28:37) Optimized further using   Jason Hull (28:38) Further using technology and automation, we have a platform that we've built, Prop Strata, to actually connect and help with that automation type effort. and we're also we also do a lot of accounting and and CPA work. you can reach us at www.balanceasset solutions.com, and my emails mo at propstrata.com, or you can reach out to our team at info at balance asset.   Mo Hussein (28:39) technology and automation. We have a platform that we've built, Prop Strata, to actually connect and and help with that automation kind of efforts. then we're also we also do a lot of accounting and and CPA work. you can reach us at www.balanceasset solutions.com and and then my email is mo at at propstrata.com or you can reach out to our team at info at balanceasset solutions.com.   Jason Hull (29:03) Cool. So they could take a look at this at propstrata.com.   Mo Hussein (29:07) Correct. W dot propstrata.com.   Jason Hull (29:11) Okay, cool. Very cool. All right. yeah, check that out, everybody. It sounds interesting. All right. Well, Mo, I appreciate you coming out and hanging out with me here on the DoorGro show and sharing everything.   All right.   So if   If you have ever felt stuck or stagnant in your property management business and you want to take it to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. We are the world's best at creating high-growth property management companies in the single-family residential space or the small multi-space. And if for a free training or how to get unlimited leads for free, text the word leads to 512-648-4608. That's 512-648-4608.   Also, join our free community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you want tips, tricks, and ideas to learn about our offers, subscribe to our newsletter by going to doorgrow.com slash subscribe. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on whatever channel you saw or heard this on. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember the slowest path to growth.   is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

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Most sales problems start when the seller won't stop talking. Mark Roberge (HubSpot's founding CRO, Harvard Business School lecturer, and co-founder of Stage 2 Capital) joins Matt and Luigi to challenge the loudest myths in sales and startup growth. His take is simple: great selling is not about pressure, slick pitches, or talking someone into a bad deal.    It's about asking better questions, finding the real problem, and knowing when to walk away. The conversation also tackles a mistake that kills promising companies: scaling before customers are getting real value. Mark breaks down why rising revenue can fool founders, how to test product-market fit, and what must be true before a business earns the right to grow faster.  

Do things feel a little disconnected between team members in your practice? Tiff and Dana discuss the common signs that usually mean your practice could use a communication refresher, and then give advice on what can be done about improvement. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Tiffanie (00:01) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back at you on the podcast slash video cast, which is still really weird to me. I think I spend more time getting prepped and ready for the podcast than I do for coaching calls, which is wildly, wildly annoying. And here we are. I secretly do   wish that we could just be off camera still, but I I know I enjoy watching the podcast and Aaron watches podcasts every morning. So here we are. Dana, you are my favorite podcaster on a Friday. I love ending my week with you. I love beginning my week with you as well. You are an amazing podcaster and just an incredible person. How are you today, Dana?   DAT-Dana (00:44) Doing pretty good. Excited. I know this is a good way to like have a solid Friday. Get some tip time.   Tiffanie (00:50) It is.   DAT-Dana (00:51) Get to get to chat. it is a great way to end   Tiffanie (00:54) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (00:54) the week.   Tiffanie (00:55) I agree. I agree. And I I was excited because I forgot what the schedule I look at my schedule a million times. This week has been weird. and I look at it a million times, a million times. I even put podcasting in a different color on my calendar so that I know that it's like it's coming. And then this morning I was like, Happy surprise podcasting today. Like two hours ago, I was like, my gosh, this is wild tough. I just can't get it together this week. But alas, I think it's because Brody's birthday threw me off.   He turned eighteen and that has been spinning my world. So here we are, Dana. You have littles at home. It's summer right now and at the point of recording this, we all have we all have some sort of children at home on some level. And how are how's your summer over there going with the with the clan? You have a whole clan.   DAT-Dana (01:44) Yeah, it's going good. It's it's super busy.   Tiffanie (01:48) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (01:48) I feel like, you know, I get to summertime and I'm like, vacation and relaxation and it never happens.   Tiffanie (01:54) No.   DAT-Dana (01:56) but they're enjoying what downtime they get. They're enjoying, you know, being in sports and and the sunshine. So it's good   Tiffanie (02:03) Good.   DAT-Dana (02:03) overall.   Tiffanie (02:05) Good. And I feel like school comes like school starts back up so fast. Like you think you have time and then it's just summer's gone.   DAT-Dana (02:14) Yeah, I know. I'm like I can't believe it'll be here in like a week, really. Yeah.   Tiffanie (02:17) Literally. I know.   Up here, in Phoenix they started going back to school last week. My nieces already had a week and a half of school.   DAT-Dana (02:24) my gosh, that's   Tiffanie (02:26) I know.   I know. But modified year round, that's what we like to do around here. And I think East Coast, they really don't go back until most of them don't go back until after Labor Day. So then they're like wildly thrown off with the mid July start of school.   DAT-Dana (02:41) Mm. Yep.   Tiffanie (02:42) But here we are. today we are talking about leadership and that's one of our favorite topics. I think Dana, you and I definitely thrive in the leadership world and like communication is really, really massive. I think both of us   thrive on communication in our personal lives as well, and just really, really look for those opportunities to create clarity, create trust, to be vulnerable. and all of those pieces. And today's conversation kind of encompasses all of those, I feel. And it has been coming up for me a couple of times, Dana you and I spoke. You've had it come up a couple of times on coaching calls as well. And really talking about and looking at that transparency space.   between a doctor and a team? And I think you and I have some really phenomenal ideas on this. And first I wanna work through kind of workshop with you backwards. Like what is it that a doctor can maybe find in their lives that says maybe we need a little bit more communication or or this space isn't as evolved as it could be? Like what are some signs and symptoms that you've seen within teams that say, hey, we're not   connected a hundred percent and there's a gap here because I do think Dana a lot of times the team knows and notices, but oftentimes the doctor, like to their credit, they're doing dentistry. They're over there working, they're head down and they don't always realize that there's a gap, but the the team does. So what are some of those signs or symptoms that you've witnessed with your practices recently or previously?   DAT-Dana (04:21) Yeah, I think a couple big ones are when it's hard to delegate. I think to when like expectations aren't met, oftentimes there's a gap in communication there, as well as team members not feeling bought in, right? And   Tiffanie (04:37) Mm.   DAT-Dana (04:38) yet we feel like we're saying all the things, we're explaining all the things, and yet team members don't seem really bought in or really aligned.   with pieces, I think those are three that I notice pretty routinely in offices that there is just either a communication gap, a trust gap, or something, there's a disconnect somewhere.   Tiffanie (04:56) Yeah, I love those. I think that's spot on. And within that like delegation and expectation and maybe even follow through. So maybe you've asked for things and the team's not doing it. you've asked for systems to be put in place and they're just not getting completed, or you see you maybe implemented some systems to get a specific result and we're still not hitting that result. those are huge, Dana. That was that was phenomenal. And   Some of them that I've seen too are like an upset manager, like an easily upset manager or a frantic manager, a frantic front office team. I feel like they get hit with it the hardest when there's a a gap and a disconnect and the like frantic or overwhelmed. I actually was listening to a podcast yesterday that was talking about the idea of like actually listening, of being a good listener. And   one spot that it brought up was this sense of overwhelm where a lot of people will come to us and say, gosh, I'm overwhelmed. There's too much on my plate. And so then what a manager or or an owner will do is say, okay, well let's look at what you got. Let's figure it out. And and I remember I told Kira this actually probably July. So probably like six months ago, I told Kira this. I said, Kira, you can find you and I are phenomenal at finding space in a calendar. We can find   blank space and and time in a calendar for the duties and the things that I'm supposed to get done. Right. And I think managers will say that too. Like, yeah, I can see the time and we'll look at things, Dana, and be like, I think they should be able to do this. So if they can do the things, but they're saying there's an overwhelm, this podcast talked about it's not necessarily always, sometimes it is, an overwhelm of physical tasks, like things that need to get done.   Oftentimes it's an emotional overwhelm that's overriding the tasks that need to get done. And so the the emotional aspect of it and sometimes it's that gap in communication can create this whirlwind sense of not being able to accomplish the thing. So I've seen that a ton in front office team members and managers where they're like, gosh, I can't get to the I can't get to the unscheduled treatment calls.   Because I I don't have time. There's no space. And I'm like, it's it they're not gonna answer. Like, leave a voicemail, send a text. Like ninety-nine point nine percent of the time people aren't answering the phone. So it really doesn't take that much time, but that's not the actual issue. Like, there's a root cause underneath that we have to dig into, and all of those things that you said, Dina, those are the symptoms that something else is going on. And I think usually it's an emotional.   space and a and a communication gap or an emotional distance between two people that causes that.   DAT-Dana (07:53) Yeah, I completely agree with you.   Tiffanie (07:55) And I think even at home, right? Like sometimes we're like, he never takes all the trash, or he never does this. I have to do everything. And it's like maybe we just haven't connected on an emotional level to be able to see the contributions that each of us are making. Like we're so disconnected that everything is then something. And I think that happens I say really all the time. Relationships are relationships, they're just like formed a little bit differently, but your connection and your communication is relatively similar.   So if anyone can see themselves in any of that, a team member, a doctor who's here, or a doctor who might think like, wow, I thought everything was okay, but I do hear the word overwhelm a lot or stressed or tired or I don't have, I don't have, I don't have time, I don't have space, I don't have s a spot to do it in. If you're hearing those things over and over and over again, it might be more of a trust gap and a communication gap.   than an actual physical tasks gap. So I beg of you before jumping to hire a new team member, because Dana, how many times have we witnessed that we must need someone else? And I'm like, you've got 16 people for a   DAT-Dana (09:08) Right.   Tiffanie (09:08) four op practice. You're fine. Or how   DAT-Dana (09:11) Yeah.   Tiffanie (09:11) many virtual assistants do you need? Before we jump to hiring a new person, number one, take a look at the space that you have. Dana and I have countless times.   talked through an org chart and an ops manual and all those pieces. We talk about those all the time because they work. So take a look at the space that you have, like what you're trying to create, what your practice is. What is the organizational chart? How who do you need physically? Not the people you already have, but like the seats. What are the seats that you need in your practice to be successful? Because if all those seats are filled, now we need to take a step back and say, okay, great, why isn't this working? And   If they're not filled, awesome, let's hire. But if they are filled, now it's just working reverse engineering backwards. So with that, Dana, how do you think the trust gap, right? Because I I really think communic communication gap is like when there's not communication happening, it's very easy to say we have a communication gap. But really what it boils down to is that without that communication, my trust is broken because I'm trying to figure things out.   DAT-Dana (10:23) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (10:23) So   how do you feel are some common areas or ways that that trust gap is created between a doctor and a team?   DAT-Dana (10:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the first and foremost thing that I see, and I have an office that really, really struggles with this. And it is that like the doctor will announce things or share things before they're   Tiffanie (10:46) Mm.   DAT-Dana (10:47) actually fully 100% in place or going to happen. And then when it doesn't happen, or he changes his mind, or he makes a different decision or pivots down a different path, the team members one feel like whiplash.   Right. And then two, don't always know when to trust the office manager and the doctor in that it is actually going to happen. Right. So when to prep themselves and when to really start to get things into place because oftentimes they've started those pieces and then it just feels like time or work wasted because the decision pivots or changes. And so it's really, really broken down.   Trust in that way because team members, one, aren't really sure if things are really happening. And then two, frustration happens on doctor and leadership when they're like, Why aren't they excited? Why aren't they bought in? Why aren't they ready   Tiffanie (11:32) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (11:33) to go? Why aren't they super motivated? Right. And that's because the team is like, Well, it's changed 35 times. And so we're just kind of waiting until we know for sure because we don't want to feel like we wasted our time, our energy, our effort.   Tiffanie (11:45) Yeah. Yeah. I all I think when that not when I think a lot of times when those things happen, the team muscle memory reverts back to the original way of doing it. So then you've got a billing representative that's sending paper claims because she's like, I know this works, right? Yeah.   DAT-Dana (12:03) Yeah. Yeah.   Tiffanie (12:04) Yeah. And then you've got a doctor that's like, I'm paying AI Yes.   DAT-Dana (12:08) I wanna be super tech savvy and I'm paying AI and we're still sending   paper claims. Yeah.   Tiffanie (12:14) Yes,   and an office manager who's like, Well, I don't know what to tell you, but I've got an overloaded plate of things here 'cause I have people coming in my door constantly crying and saying they're overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah.   DAT-Dana (12:26) Yeah. Yeah.   Tiffanie (12:28) And I think that's a common thing and I I I know that it's really exciting to like be on the threshold of innovation. And dentistry is constantly innovating.   And within that, we've got you know the scanners and the tech and the AI and the I mean, gosh, like the AI like pearl tools that are reading x-rays and now insurances are starting to use those things like innovation is constant in dentistry. And I think oftentimes what that makes us feel like is that the simple systems that have gotten us here also need to innovate and change. And so we're throwing all of these tech innovations from a back office standpoint now.   into every aspect of the practice, but we're also saying, okay, cool, well if I can do this with a scanner, why can't you do something different with insurance verifications? And it's like, I can't even fathom that. And then they're saying, okay, well, try this, try that, try this, try that, try this. And in dentistry, when you're trying to find a new bond and primer, cool, try it until you find the one that works. But when you're overloaded with like to-dos and   paperwork is what we'll call it, tasks. It's not as easy to try it and see if it works and continue to do that. So that innovative mind tries to cover so much ground that we do end up with so many changes and it's like a pivot constantly. Gosh, Kira and I had we had pivot. I don't remember Dana when it was. You might have been here for pivot. I don't remember. Yeah. Like I don't remember how long ago it was. That was   DAT-Dana (14:04) Yep. Yes. Yeah.   Tiffanie (14:08) the worst year of our   freaking lives in this company. We had pivot as a core value and we use pivot as a core value because we want to be on the threshold of inva innovation and we want to be able to roll with the punches. Like, okay, great, something came up, great. We we figure it out and we move on is what we meant by pivot. But what happened that year, Dana? What did that year look like?   DAT-Dana (14:27) It was chaos because we also used pivot as a reason to be able to like justify lots of change, right?   Tiffanie (14:33) Correct.   Correct. So we just like constant it was like this wheel that it just never ended, right? A wheel just keeps going, keeps going, but on every little tread was a new something. And so every time that tread hit the ground, it was a change, it was a change, it was a change. And I think it's really easy in business, and in entrepreneurship to do that because you are having to create, you know, Wells Fargo and Chase, like   They're they've got innovators on their team, but they're pretty steady eddy of what that business structure needs to look like. When you're an entrepreneur and you're super innovative, it's very easy to get stuck in that like let's jump to the next thing mentality. So again, if you're feeling yourself in this, don't worry, it's not just you, or we wouldn't do an entire podcast about it, by the way. And also there are solutions. And Dana, you've you said you've got   you know, practices you can think of, I think both of us do, because again, it's not just you, it's everyone that go through this. What are some ways that you help your teams and your doctors to bridge that gap when those things come up? Like when we're in this constant state of change and they're like, I'm out, I can't even get excited anymore. How do you help them bridge that gap?   DAT-Dana (15:50) Yeah, I think it is it it is getting them to understand that like while change is really, really great, you have to understand that your team members are who is implementing the change. So be cautious and cognizant of how many things you're changing at once. Be cautious and cognizant that the team feels like, hey, yep, we've got this, we can do it independently, we're good, before we add the next change. So just really keeping a pulse on those pieces. And then two, just really   Making sure that you get to a certain point in your decision making process before you're   Tiffanie (16:25) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (16:25) involving the team. And even your office manager, right? Another breakdown of trust that I see is it's like we either share too much or share too little, right? With the people   who then help us implement or help us guide those decisions. And so I think like figuring out that clarity of what is the right amount to share.   Or when is the right time to share and who those appropriate channels are. So just like you said with the org chart tip, I think as you're   Tiffanie (16:52) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (16:53) building out your org chart, building and knowing like, okay, when it comes to what I need to share, who actually do I need to share certain things with and having clarity amongst you, your leaders, and the people that are on your org chart about those things.   Tiffanie (17:09) Yeah, that's beautiful. And it made me think of just like how much communication you have with those key players in the practice. And a and a couple of dissecting pieces there, Dana. The team and team members who are here doesn't need to know everything. The leadership   team of the practice needs to know.   what they need to know in order to push the needles forward. And as you were talking, I was thinking oftentimes doctors go like a full in it or out of it, right? It's either one or the other. And so they're either oversharing or they're sharing nothing because it's hard to find that happy medium. And something we do with our offices and something we do in our own company is we create those targets. And so when you have those yearly targets, those quarterly rock targets that you're looking at.   we're able to say, does this push us towards our targets or is this a distraction? And Dana, I think after the year of pivot, that's something we implemented and we stuck to because Kira is an idea like machine. She her famous words are, I have an idea. Right. And my famous words are awesome, what is it? Let's go. Right. I don't even need to hear it. And I'm like, yep, let's do it.   And so then the whole company just goes into this spiral. So it needs to be a space of of innovation. So you've got to have be able to have the ideas, but then you need someone, what's where Britt comes into our company really strong?   DAT-Dana (18:41) Hm.   Tiffanie (18:42) Someone in between the heck yes girl and the idea generator that says, hang on a second, is this pushing us forward or is this just a distraction? So they go on like I have doctors that have made them carry notebooks.   For ideas. It's an idea book or an idea board. It's like I've got all of these great ideas, but let's go back to them when the timing is right. So if the timing is right right now for that thing, great, let's add it to our list of to-dos or our changes or updates. Let's do it. Let's figure out how to do it and then implement with the   team when everything's ready to go. Don't implement prior and then we all figure it out together. You guys figure it out, you implement and then you follow through.   And all of those other things stay on that like idea board. If it's not generating what we need it to generate today, it might later. And Dana, I don't know how many times I've I've even gone back to my own boards, but that I've had doctors, I have one doctor in particular that I'm thinking of, and I hope she listens to this and knows exactly who I'm talking about. I know she will, because I bought her the notebook and the special pen and she would carry it around. She had it for years. And sometimes she'd go back to the other pages and be like   I don't even know what these words mean. I don't know what this idea was. So I was like,   DAT-Dana (19:59) Yeah.   Tiffanie (20:01) great. No reason to like try to figure it out, cross it out. If it was that important, it was gonna be that phenomenal and life-changing, you'll think of it again. It'll come back up.   DAT-Dana (20:11) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (20:12) And otherwise that idea would have been something that we jumped on, right? So we jump and we change and we jump and we change, but we need to be able to have that space of discussion. So what I have a lot of doctors and office managers do is whether you've got a full leadership team or not.   Doctors and office managers are meeting weekly. I had to do this years ago with my doctor when I was office manager just to keep up with his ideas. And if I didn't catch him before he caught the team, I was   DAT-Dana (20:42) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (20:42) in a frenzy, like backtracking, trying to fix things, right? I had people in my office like, why are we doing this? I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never heard that before. So I had to catch him and be like, nope, everything funnels here.   We talk here. This is where we talk about project status. This is where I tell you what where I'm at on the projects we've already said yes to. This is where you bring problems, issues, and ideas. Same for me. And we discuss them and we figure out what's being implemented to the team. So again, whether there's like a whole leadership team doing it or not, that trusted person in your practice who's supposed to carry things out is the person that needs to have these conversations. Even as far Dana, I think, as   Hey, in the next five years, I'd love to do a build out. Cool. But like that's not today. So then when you   DAT-Dana (21:28) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (21:28) go to the team and you're like, yeah, we're gonna get bigger, some are gonna be like, yes, when? And five years is a long time. And others are gonna be like, I don't want to get any bigger. Peace. You know? Do   DAT-Dana (21:38) Yeah. Yep.   Tiffanie (21:40) you do that too, Dana? With those, I know we do it in our company, but those kind of like office manager and doctor meetings, do th are those working for your practices too?   DAT-Dana (21:49) Yeah, they really are. And I think that it's it's the it's the doctor understanding that and then the office manager really making sure that we follow those lines   Tiffanie (21:57) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (21:57) and and really making sure too that sometimes we mess up, right? We're human and so we we skip over. But then also just teaching the team, hey, if something's brought to you that doesn't come from me, bring it back to me so we can talk about it,   Tiffanie (22:06) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (22:07) we can figure it out. but yeah, I feel like that is such a key tool into not feeling like   Chaotic, when it's not   Tiffanie (22:15) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (22:16) funneled down, when ideas are just thrown out there and we're just changing things and changing things and changing things because we had this idea, but it wasn't actually super important. And so we keep trying to change it and manipulate it to make it be important. When you have those kind of conversations, the chaos and the overwhelm in the office goes down and the trust really starts to increase too.   Tiffanie (22:37) I agree. You said something there. You said, when something comes to you that I didn't bring, bring it to me. That's a huge space. And I think that's a space where managers can work really hard at bridging the trust gap between yourself and the doctor. A lot of managers are afraid to say what needs to be said to their doctors and you lose trust and that doctor loses trust in you too. If you're not willing to say, Hey, I this was brought to my attention.   What are we doing with that? Like what is that? I didn't you didn't come through me, which isn't not everything has to come through me, but I didn't know about it. So what is this? Not being able to not being able to say that, now you've got a huge issue, office managers, massive, because now you have asked your team to funnel to you like a dramatic little tattletale, and you're gonna start going, he did it again. there she goes, in front of your team.   Instead of being like, yeah, let me know, keep me in the loop, and then going and talking to your doctor. Because if you go and talk to your doctor, your doctor's like, shoot, you're right. I didn't follow I didn't follow the lines again. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Right? That's the trust gap, and that's the second, the second that office managers break that trust and start getting the team to rally against the doctor because they feel slighted or they feel like, he didn't tell me because he doesn't trust me.   No, we didn't tell you because the dental assistant was closer. It doesn't matter. It's not, it's not typically out of spite. It's not typically even thought about. It's this is the person who's the closest proximity to me right now, and I need to say it and get it out. Period. There's no malintent. Yes.   DAT-Dana (24:19) Yeah. Because I'm afraid I'm gonna forget it, or I'm afraid, you know, or I'm so excited about   it. You're right. There's no malice in there. And I love how you said go back, and it's not, it's not you jumped over me, right? You skipped over me. It's hey, I just heard of this thing. This is the first time I'm hearing about it. What's my role in it? Right? Where   Tiffanie (24:38) Yep.   DAT-Dana (24:38) do what what am I supposed to do? What's the plan for   how I'm supposed to get this implemented. Do you've got a time frame? Do you have again, it's just you're kind of coming more from that curiosity of, hey, I heard about something I hadn't heard about before. What's the plan here? Because there is, again, like you said, that's just it's not ever malicious when it comes to those   Tiffanie (24:57) Yeah. Yeah. It's not   DAT-Dana (25:00) types of things.   Tiffanie (25:01) it's not. I like to remind people we're not that important. Our egos tell us the opposite and that everything is about us and that they must be mad at us. Like I they're not thinking about us as much as we are. I'm not that important. So if I can if I can be like Chill, Tiff, you're not that important. As in like they didn't do it to you, just go find out the information. So if you can just come in at like a neutral space of   non-emotional attachment, not thinking that someone was doing something to you, you can get to the bottom line in the answer and start to train the habits that need to be trained. And I think Dana, those are two massive like earlier I was like, what are the action items? Like I think those are the two action items, right? As org chart, make sure that you know the order of operations, like who who talks to who, how do how do things get nailed down to the team and increasing those   office manager and doctor meetings, making sure that you're having those meetings and then office managers increasing your communication back to the doctor. I had to learn this with Kira that I wasn't always reporting back. And I was like, what like yes, I did my job. Like, stop asking me. Stop   DAT-Dana (26:12) Yeah. Yeah.   Tiffanie (26:13) asking me. And so many people say they're just micromanagers, right? Like, okay, yeah, they're micromanagers. And you know what? It's fine.   they have an entire business that they're trying to run. The way that you battle micromanaging is you report back. So   DAT-Dana (26:26) Mm-hmm.   Tiffanie (26:26) guess what? It's fine. This like ideal that the society has come up with about micromanaging, like whatever, we just have to make sure that things are getting done. So delete the term and just say, I need to report back. So org chart, increase your meetings and your one on one meetings or leadership. And still I think even Dana   Even if there's a leadership team, I still think it's very important for the doctor and the manager to meet, even outside of leadership. And   DAT-Dana (26:52) I agree. Yeah.   Tiffanie (26:55) then managers learn how to report back and communicate with your doctors and bridge that gap of trust starting with you. Doctors, your f your last one is if you listen to this without your manager, share it to your manager. I think it might be good for them to hear too. Dana, any parting words or anything you can think of that we missed in those action items that I was really afraid we weren't gonna come up with.   This is how we do it.   DAT-Dana (27:19) No, I honestly   I really loved this one and I think that there's a takeaway for everybody from owner, doctor to to to managers to leadership team to team in this. and these things take time to implement, they take time to incorporate, but truly the change in the trust can be massive.   Tiffanie (27:37) I agree. I agree. All right. So beginning of this podcast, we talked about the ways that you can see that you might have a trust gap. And then we walked you through how to start bridging that gap. There's a lot more to it than what this 30 minute podcast allows for. So reach out, you guys. We are here to help. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. You can find us on the socials, Dental A Team, all of the places. And as always, leave us a five star review.   if you loved this and want to follow up, let us know as well. Cause again, this does go further than just this. Dana, thank you so much. and everyone we'll catch you next time.  

All Home Care Matters and our host, Lance A. Slatton were honored to welcome Alder Allensworth as guest to the show.   About Alder Allensworth, MM, RN:   Alder Allensworth, MM, RN, is a registered nurse and retired hospice counselor who supported families caring for loved ones with dementia at the end of life. Her professional background spans working with both children and older adults, including those living with Alzheimer's disease.   The inspiration for this project grew from Alder's personal experience witnessing her mother, who had Alzheimer's, connect meaningfully with her grandchildren—Alder's nieces and nephews. This powerful family experience, combined with her clinical work, deepened her commitment to helping families navigate dementia with compassion, creativity, and connection.   Alder is also an accomplished writer, having published several articles in professional journals and books. As a speaker and presenter in the field of disabilities, she has shared her insights on local, national, and international stages. Her advocacy and dedication to promoting quality of life for people with disabilities have been featured on CNN, as well as in international media and local news outlets.   About Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Program (MMAP):   The Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Program (MMAP) is a family-centered, multimedia educational program with an online community component designed to help parents, children, educators, and healthcare professionals navigate the challenges of Alzheimer's disease.   Created especially for families in the "sandwich generation," it provides practical tools, guidance, and meaningful activities that support positive interactions between children and loved ones living with Alzheimer's from diagnosis through the severe stage. The program helps children and their families stay meaningfully connected throughout the journey.   At the heart of the program is the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Awareness Program (MMAAP), a 5-video educational series covering each stage of the disease, along with guidance for adults raising children while caregiving. The program also includes a quick reference guide, transcripts, and accessible audio and visual resources to support a wide range of learning needs.   Importantly, the MMAAP helps children understand Alzheimer's in age-appropriate ways and gives them simple, meaningful activities they can do with their loved one to maintain connection and nurture the relationship.   Complementing the video series is the Mackenzie Meets Alzheimer's Disease Picture Book, a gentle, child-friendly introduction to Alzheimer's. The book follows a young girl learning how to understand and connect with her grandmother as the disease progresses. It includes a QR code for a free Story Song download whose lyrics are the text for the book—making the learning experience engaging, memorable, and accessible for young children and early readers.   The complete MMAP is also a valuable resource for Adult Day Centers and Memory Care Communities, offering a ready-to-run educational program for families. It helps answer common questions proactively, reducing the need for staff to repeatedly provide the same explanations. This allows them to focus more on care and connection.   Together, the program and book go beyond education—they empower families to create meaningful moments, maintain connection, and build positive memories throughout the course of Alzheimer's and other dementias.