Podcast appearances and mentions of adam well

Spring is in the air! Join us at Londonthorpe Wood, Lincolnshire to enjoy the wellbeing benefits of woods while using all our senses to check for signs of spring. We seek out frogspawn, song thrushes and blackthorn blossom for Nature's Calendar, a citizen science phenology project which tracks the effects of weather and climate change on nature across the UK. Keeping your eyes and ears peeled to record for Nature's Calendar doesn't just support science. Discover new research that shows how engaging all our senses on a woodland walk is good for our wellbeing, and how different levels of biodiversity in each wood can impact the positive effects of being in nature. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, this month I'm off to Grantham in Lincolnshire, which is a bit to the right of Nottingham and quite a bit below Sheffield, if you're not clear on your geography. Anyway, I'm here to investigate a Woodland Trust project called Nature's Calendar, which tracks how the seasons are changing over time and if, for instance, the timing of spring is starting earlier. Now, if that is happening, that's not a minor thing, because all of nature depends on, well, the rest of all of nature. So if one thing changes, it can cause big changes everywhere. Now, this is all part of citizen science, and if you don't know that phrase or haven't heard it before, it means the data is collected from people of all ages, backgrounds, abilities, not necessarily by scientists, in fact, probably not by scientists. Anyone can volunteer and the volunteering work is incredibly important. Volunteers have been recording the changing seasons with Nature's Calendar for 20 years, and the database they have built contains 2.9 million records. It's believed to be the longest written biological record of its kind in the UK, and it's used by researchers from across the world to explore the effects of weather and climate on timings in wildlife. And a brief word for those who like new words, here's one for you: phenology. That's what this project is all about. The study of seasonal changes in plants and animals from year to year. Phenology. Now, that word was invented by a botanist called Charles Morren in around 1849. But even before they had a name for it, people were busy recording what was happening in nature and Britain was really at the forefront of much of this work. Robert Marsham was Britain's first phenologist, doing his work before the name was invented for his field of study, and he recorded his quote ‘indications of spring' from around the year 1736. Anyway, all of that is a huge historical meander so let's get to the events of today with a real meander around Londonthorpe Woods with one of the Woodland Trust's experts. Here we are. Whenever you're ready! Sally: Okay, I'm Sally Bavin. I'm a monitoring and evaluation adviser for the Woodland Trust and we are currently at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham. Adam: Right, well, thank you very much for joining me here. It's a chilly day, but we're good on the, we're good on the rain for the moment. So what is the purpose of what we're doing here? Where are you taking me today and why? Sally: We've we've come out to the woods today to enjoy some of the wellbeing benefits of visiting woodlands and particularly looking out for signs of spring using all of our senses. So, yeah, it should be quite a quite an enjoyable one. Adam: Fantastic. And this fits in with part of a campaign the Woodland Trust is running. Is that right? Sally: Absolutely, yes, so we have at the moment we're asking people to look out for the vital signs of spring, as we're calling it. So we've picked out three things of interest that are frogspawn, the song of the song thrush returning for the spring, and the first blackthorn flower. Adam: Right. And that's what we're going to try and spot today. Sally: We will have a go. Yeah, we might be a bit early for some, but this is the the interesting thing to see what's out and about at the moment. Adam: And on a previous podcast we were here together looking to sort of identify trees. I'm going to be super impressed if you can identify birdsong as well. Are you good at that? Sally: Well, I know the song thrush. That's the one we're listening out for *laughs* so I'm not too bad. You'll have to test me as we go along. Adam: Okay, so we're at Londonthorpe Woods, which is, happens to be near Grantham, which is where the Woodland Trust is actually based. So all very lovely. Which way? Sally: I assume we're editing lots of… Adam: No, no, no, all this confusion is, is in *both laugh*. That way. Sally: Okay. Adam: Right. If you're hearing noises off, it's because Alex from the Trust is joining us. She's part of the brains of the operation and also doing social media videos. So I'm gonna look particularly daft with my, headset on, talking into a little box. Anyway, so, okay well, we're already leaving the woodlands. That was a quick visit. We're crossing the road. Is it because there's a pond over here? Sally: Yes. So the first thing we're going to look for, is frogspawn. And as we are walking towards the pond, I could tell you about some research that the Woodland Trust has funded, but let's wait till we get away from the road. Adam: I was gonna say we just crossed not a very busy road that got very busy as we were crossing it. Okay, let's go through here, away from the road and into another bit of woodland. Sally: So I think to get to the pond, I think it's that way. And then that way. Adam: Okay, you're not filling me with confidence. You've only taken two directions, and you're not sure of either of them at the moment, but okay *both laugh* Sally: Yeah. So as we're walking along, the idea is to be using all of your senses to engage with the landscape that we're in. So I've just seen a robin fly past there, but, yeah so… Adam: But robins aren't a sign of spring? Sally: They sing all year round, they're a good constant through the winter. Thank goodness for the robin otherwise we wouldn't really have much birdsong in the winter at all. Adam: And they look lovely, robins, but actually they're they're quite territorial, they've, a lot of them come to my bird feeder in my garden and they're, they're proper brave! I mean, I'll go out and the robin looks at me like, come on, get the nuts out, get the seed, they're not scared. They're quite territorial, looks like quite territorial birds, I think. But go on, you you were wanting to tell me? Sally: So one of the birds that we're listening for is the song thrush. That is because, it's a bird, which generally, it starts singing early spring, and it's a species that's been recorded for Nature's Calendar for many years now. So it's one that we're asking people to look out, to listen out for even, engaging all your senses, because it's quite a distinctive song, so if we do hear one, then that would be great. Adam: And then where do they go then, in the winter, then, migratory, migratory, oh, gosh, I can't even say that word properly. But anyway, they're not always here, perhaps is a better way to describe them. Sally: We do have resident song thrush, but it's the singing behavior that starts in the spring. Adam: Oh does it? And is that all about attracting, you know, mates? Sally: Yeah, yeah, it's the the springtime rush for romance, yeah. Adam: Right okay and is it the boys or the girls doing the singing? Or is it both? Sally: I believe it's the males, but, yeah, I'll have to check that one. Adam: Okay. I'll check. Sally: It's usually the males. Adam: Is it? Okay. Sally: But the robins are the exception where females and males both sing. Adam: Actually, do you know what? I've got such a bad memory, but I, we came here, and I remember stopping at this tree because I think you were explaining to me, was it, a little, I've forgotten the name, but the things that you crush up and make ink with that Shakespeare used to write in. Sally: Ah, oak galls. Adam: Oak galls! Oak galls. And I think they were around here. No, this is not an oak? Sally: No… Adam: Okay. But this is, that's right, I think oak galls, which was a great little episode all about, and I've got one on my desk still from this woodland. Sally: Oh, you've not used it for writing yet? Adam: I haven't ground it up to try and make ink, no. Anyway, sorry, I was interrupting. So yes so so the birds don't leave us, but they do start singing, right? A very muddy bit. Sally: Very muddy. Adam: Okay, you might hear some squelching. Oh, blimey. Sally: So that's some good sensory experience there as well all the squelchy mud. Adam: Okay, so tell me a bit about, this woodland that we're in whilst we're going up to find the pond. Sally: So this is Londonthorpe Wood. It's the closest woodland to our Grantham head office, which is lovely. It was it's a woodland creation site, but it's getting, on I think it's roughly about 30 years, probably since it was planted now. So, it's really, you know, well established now, we can start to see lots of different types of habitats. We've got some glades, which is open areas within the woodland, with some nice grassland habitat. There's some dense areas, like these sort of thickets of blackthorn, which we could be checking for blossom. I can't actually see any at the moment yet. I think we're perhaps a bit too too early. Adam: Well, we're going just off the beaten track a bit here into a lovely pond area where, oh, it's it's actually, this is an outdoor classroom it says, so we'll go through this gate and walking up here, there's a good sized pond and a platform, I've lost the word, a wooden platform so you can sort of stand out a bit and it's here that we're hoping to see frogspawn, one of the early signs of spring, even though it's a bit chilly today. So we'll have a, yeah, I'm already getting a shake of the head so okay. Which is a shame, because it looks like there are no frogspawn here at the moment. So one of the early signs of spring is not here. But I suppose just the absence of that spring, is itself interesting, I mean, and in itself, one observation, of course, isn't scientifically significant, but actually, I think what is perhaps really important is that, global warming, changing seasons aren't linear. So we're also getting we may be getting an early spring, but also we're getting more volatile periods perhaps. So it's just up and down. And perhaps that's what we're seeing anyway. No, no frogspawn today. Let's move on. Sally: It's an unusually hilly wood for Lincolnshire. Adam: Yeah. Oh, right. Is Lincolnshire, meant to be fairly flat? Sally: A lot of it's flat, yeah, but Grantham is on this, sort of geological feature called the Lincoln Edge, and it's sort of one big long hill that runs through the county, sort of south to north. And we just happened to be, have found it to climb. Adam: Right. So what is the purpose of this then? Presumably it's partly scientific because you're getting data from a from a lot of people around the country. Is it something else apart from that? Sally: Nature's Calendar as a project? Yeah, so, like you say, it's it's primarily it was set up to be a phenology project. So studying how the changing climate is affecting the changing seasonal events and affecting what time of year they occur. But it's also a really good opportunity for, because obviously it's volunteers that, you know, look out for these things and we need eyes and ears all over the country looking out for these things, and something that you get back from it as a volunteer, is that opportunity to have that bit of extra motivation to keep your eyes and ears out, looking at nature regularly, and with a sense of purpose to do that, which I think is a really good opportunity for people to, to help their own wellbeing. So it just kind of really fits well with what we know from research is, the way to get the most out of time in nature, which is using your senses to engage with it, finding meaning in it, and connecting with other people around it as well. So you become part of this, you know, community of people contributing and giving back as well. So you're providing your data that's, you know, an opportunity for you to, to contribute to something bigger than yourself and to, to have that sense of purpose, with what you're doing. So it just brings it more, yeah, it brings it alive for people, I think, because a walk in the woods, if you're not necessarily engaging with your surroundings, you could miss a lot of the beneficial species that that research showed when people engage with them, they really benefit from. Adam: Brilliant. Sally: I, I, one thing, oh, shall we sit on this log, that'd be a nice little, I mean, it looks a bit prickly around it, but nice to just sit and chat because we've had a lot of hills! Adam: It does have a lot of, yeah, we have had a lot of hills. Sally: So the research that the Woodland Trust funded, I just wanted to talk about what we're hoping to actually do with these findings and sort of why it's all important. So, the mapping that the researchers at the University of Kent have done, to identify those hotspots of, where woodlands are really rich in biodiversity and the biodiversity that people relate to for wellbeing experiences, it really it fits in with the Woodland Trust's focus on being really interested and driven to improve the quality of woodlands rather than just the quantity. So while we do need to increase woodland cover, as you know, just pure hectarage, we need more woodlands, it's really about the quality of those woodlands that we're creating and protecting and restoring woodlands that we already have. So this research really shows how it's important for people that the quality of woodlands is there. Just it just shows how important things like our new woodland creation guide are, which, set out guidelines for how to create a new woodland in a way that's most likely to help it develop into a woodland that's going to be thriving with wildlife in the future. Adam: And what sort of person gets that guide, is that just for professional sort of people who are setting up massive woodlands across the country, or is it something you you might be able to do as a community project or if you've got a large bit of land yourself? Sally: Yeah so it's available on our website so anybody can download it and it's aimed at anybody who's creating a woodland so the principles can be taken on board and scaled up or down to whatever's necessary. So, yeah, that's available on our website. Adam: And, and in the time that, that this Nature's Calendar has been running, have you noticed any differences? Sally: I've been with the Woodland Trust for five years, and so I've been recording frogspawn as my main… Adam: That's your, that's your go to. Sally: Yeah and I like it because it's very, well it's literally black and white *laughs*. You can, it's there or it's not there, one day it's there. So… Adam: And what, have you noticed anything in that time? Sally: Yeah, in my, I mean, a five year span, I suppose there's, there's quite variation and this is obviously just my one record, so it's anecdotal but but there are analysis provided on the website of all the woodlands, the, the Nature's Calendar data and yeah, so I think the first time I recorded it was about 10 March, something like that. And in some years I've recorded it as early as Valentine's Day so that's already past now so this year is obviously a later one. So you know, it, it shows that there is that, the the data from Nature's Calendar is part of it contributes to the State of UK Climate report and the JNCC Spring Index, which is the kind of, the measure that they use to look at the effect of climate change on biodiversity. Adam: Sorry what's the JNCC? Sally: JNCC is the… Joint Nature Conservation Council. That's probably, that might be wrong! Adam: Maybe, something like that. We don't guarantee that by the way, if you're listening, it's just what we think. Anyway, okay, the JNCC…*both laugh* Sally: It's a sort of government organisation. Adam: Doesn't matter, I'm sure they're very important. Anyway, the JNCC, I interrupted your your train of thought. The JNCC says what? Sally: The spring index has moved forwards by more than eight days over I think it's the last 30 years, I think is the data that they use. Adam: And is that a lot? Is that significant? I'm not sure? Sally: It's it's significant when you think that birds will time their nesting, to within a peak kind of abundance of caterpillars, which are all also dependent on the phenology of leaves emerging. Adam: And an eight day difference makes a difference? Sally: So yes, yes, studies of birds like blue tits, which we've said are, you know, so important for people's wellbeing to be able to see birds like that around, yeah studies have shown that they do suffer in years where, the, the leaves burst too early. That means the caterpillars come out too early, and then they are not in sync with that, pattern for when they're, raising their chicks in the nest because they need a huge amount of food to be able to raise to, to raise a clutch of, of chicks. And they do it over a spell of just, you know, 2 or 3 weeks. So a week is a big difference when you think that that's... Adam: Right so that makes it, okay, that's it in context. So they're they're really peak feeding for these young chicks is 2 or 3 weeks. So if, if spring is moving eight days that's over half your feeding time to get a sort of young chick away and stable, is actually there's no food. That's the difference between living and not living, presumably that's a big deal? Sally: Yep, yeah, exactly. And you know, the sort of potential knock on consequences of food chains being disrupted could go much beyond there but I think there's a lot more that we don't know yet. And that's probably just as concerning as what we do know. Adam: Okay, yeah, I didn't, I have to say when you say eight days over 30 years, I went, well, I don't know, how significant is that. But when you say they've only got two weeks to feed these chicks at their peak, that suddenly makes it much more worrying. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. Adam: Okay. All right we've had our little rest. Sally: I think we're getting rained on now aren't we. Adam: Oh are we? Oh no. Sally: I don't know I thought I felt a few spots. Adam: Right. Where to now? Now why am I asking you, you've no idea! Sally: I think this takes us to, this takes us back. Adam: You've no idea. I've got to stop asking you. Sally: We, I can remember on the… Adam: We're just going to go forward. And if you, if you find this at some future period, send our love to our families and loved ones. Sally: Yeah we're still wandering. Adam: Yeah we're wandering and we just left this under a tree. Sally: Oh, yeah, I definitely felt rain. Adam: Okay. A little bit more mud. Whoops. Yeah. My first slide. Oooh. Sally: Oh look at these. Look at the snowdrops. Adam: Oh yeah. Snowdrops. Sally: Now that's a Nature's Calendar event that you can record. But because they're already out we've missed it. Adam: Alright. Oh gosh I saw that little, there's loads of snowdrops! They're all over there. So that's an early sign of spring. Sally: Yeah so next year you have to keep an eye out before, you know, in like January. Adam: Oh so it's not a sign, it comes before spring really. The snowdrops end of winter really. Sally: Yeah. Well, it all depends where you sort of draw the line, doesn't it? It's all a continuum, really. Adam: Aren't they beautiful? Gosh. Sally: And for Nature's Calendar what you, the the key point at which you know, okay, they're officially open is when the flower is actually open like that and you can see in the middle, not, just when they poke through and they're still closed like that one. Adam: Right. Sally: Yeah. That's a lovely display of them. Adam: Yeah. All over. Look, they're on the other side of the path and all these brambles as well. Very nice. It's emerging now. Sally: Top of the hill, can see, we've got a vantage point now, see where we are, out of the woods. Okay. I think that must be about their peak. You know, we're seeing them on their best, best few days. Adam: So downhill now? He says hopefully. Sally:  Yeah. Downward stretch. Adam: Okay. All right. We're going downhill. And whoa ho ho ho ho ho ho! That's like the Vicar of Dibley when she just disappears down a hole, which is much, well it's not quite as dramatic as that, just my foot went into it, not my whole body, but, you know, I don't know if you can hear this, but there we are. It's going through my shoes. I've got wet feet. Whoa ho ho! *both laughing* Sally: This is a wet bit. We should have brought some tarpaulin just to slide down this hill shouldn't we. Adam: Sorry? Whoa! Okay, we're all going over. Oh ho ho ho ho! Sally: You're doing the splits. Adam: Give me a hand, I've got my legs going different directions. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Whoa, oh whoa! *both laughing* Sorry! Sorry sorry sorry sorry about that. Sally: Oh, dear. Perhaps this was a mistake. Adam: It's not just me. Sally: I wonder if there's such a thing as mud skis. Adam: Yes. There we are. Go on then, so yeah, so what's the… Sally: What, why, why does it all matter? Adam: Why does it matter, all of this then? Sally: Well, for the Woodland Trust, it's really important to our vision and our mission, we want to create a world where woods and trees thrive for people and for nature. And so there's been quite a lot of work looking at the ecosystem services that are provided by woodlands in terms of carbon and flooding and all of those sorts of things. And a lot of mapping work has been done already to help us prioritise, you know, where is it best to create, protect and restore woods to deliver those particular priorities of different ecosystem services? But this is the first time that human wellbeing has been kind of mapped in that way, to be able to provide insight into, you know, these are the areas that need to be targeted and prioritised to increase biodiversity, particularly in areas where people have not got such high quality woodlands to visit necessarily. Adam: So an important piece of work scientifically, but a great thing for people to be involved in as well. Sally: Exactly. And and another thing that was really an interesting finding, so the researchers analysed their map of woodland wellbeing quality against the indices of multiple deprivation, which is some socio-economic data that's in a sort of mapped, format. And they looked to see whether there was a relationship between the quality of woodlands in an area and the socio-economic status. And they found that there is a relationship. So unfortunately, areas which are have a lower socio-economic status also tend to have the lower quality woodlands, which is, you know, it's not fair. And it's, something that, you know, it's opened our eyes to that to now allow us to think about, you know, how is it best to to sort of consider that when we're targeting where to create woodlands and enhance biodiversity in general. So, so yeah, it's really important for people I think, this is this is a really important piece of work, to help us deliver for, for people and nature. Adam: And if people want to get involved in spotting the early signs of spring, how should they do that? Sally: You can go to the Woodland Trust website and go to Nature's Calendar, you'll find the link on there, and there'll be all the information there about how to sign up and what different events you can record and how to do it. Lots of information on the website. *dog barks* Adam: Wonderful. We've got a keen dog who wants to get involved clearly as well. And so go to the Woodland Trust website and you can follow them on social media, Insta and the rest, no doubt as well. Thank you very much. Sally: Thank you for coming on a walk with us. Adam: Thank you. I returned to the car park muddier, a little wetter, but we have missed most of the rain so that is really good. Sally: It's just starting now. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us. And do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite Woodland Walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Grab your hot chocolate (or mulled wine!) and get into the festive spirit with our Christmas special as we meet some reindeer, talk Christmas trees and explore a small but mighty wood with huge value for nature in the snowy Cairngorms National Park. We discover fascinating reindeer facts with Tilly and friends at The Cairngorm Reindeer Centre, and step into a winter wonderland at nearby Glencharnoch Wood with site manager Ross. We learn what makes a good Christmas tree, how the wood is helping to recover the old Caledonian pine forest of Scotland, why the site is so important to the community and which wildlife thrive here. You can also find out which tree can effectively clone itself, and is so tasty to insects that it developed the ability to shake them off! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, today I'm in the Cairngorms in Scotland. In Scottish Gaelic, the area is called – I'm going to give this a go - Am Monadh Ruadh. Apologies for my pronunciation there, but we are in the midst of a mountain range in the Highlands, of Scotland obviously. Generally we're about 1,000 metres high here but the higher peaks I'm told get to about 1,300 metres odd, which is going on for, I don't know, 4,500 foot or so. So this is a very dramatic landscape. We have rocky outcrops, boulders, steep cliffs. It's home to bird species such as the dotterel, snow bunting, the curlew and red grouse, as well as mammals such as mountain hare. But the reason of course we are here this Christmas is because it is also home to Britain's only herd, I think, of reindeer. Now, the reindeer herder is Tilly. She is the expert here and I've been braving, I am braving the snow and icy winds to be introduced to her and the herd. And from there after that, we're going to take a drive to what I'm told is an amazing wooded landscape of Caledonian pine to talk all things pine, and of course, all things Christmas trees. But first of all, let's meet Tilly, who looks after the reindeer.  Adam: OK, we are recording.  Tilly: That's good. OK. I'd better not say anything naughty then.  Adam: I'll cut out any naughtiness, that's fine.  Tilly: This is a bit of a rustly bag. It's more rustly than normal but never mind.  Adam: What do the reindeer actually eat?  Tilly: Well, so. We're now up in their natural habitat and we're looking across a nice heathery hillside with sedges as well. You can just see them poking through the snow and they'll pick away at the old heather of the year and the sedges.  Adam: Right.  Tilly: But we manage the herd and we like to feed them. So what I've got in my bag is some food for them, which they love.  Adam: Right. And what's in your Santa sack of food now?   Tilly: Oh, that's a secret.   Adam: Oh, you can't tell me. Oh, God.  Tilly: No, no. I can tell you. So it's a cereal mix and there is something similar to what you would feed sheep. Bit of barley, bit of sheep mix.  Adam: That's awesome. So not mince pies and carrots? That's only reserved for Christmas Eve. That's probably not very good for them, I would have thought.  Tilly: Yeah, no, I hate to say this, but reindeer don't actually eat carrots.  Adam: Oh right okay, well, that's good to know.  Tilly: But if ever children bring carrots for them, I never turn them away because we're very good at making carrot soup and carrot cake.  Adam: Santa's helpers get the carrots.  Tilly: And I'm absolutely certain that Santa eats all the mince pies, so all good. So anyway, come on through here. We're going now into a 1000-acre enclosure. It just hooks on there, that's perfect, it goes right across. We could actually once we get close to these visitors are coming off from a hill visit this morning. So you'll be pleased to hear that I am the boss. I'm Mrs. boss man and I've been with the reindeer for 43 years. Now, their lifespan is sort of 12 to 15 years, so I've gone through many generations. I've known many lovely reindeer and there's always a favourite and you would have seen some real characters there today. And you couldn't see them in better conditions. Anyway, do get yourself down and warm yourselves up. Oh, you've done very well to bring a little one like that today.  Walker: He did pretty well until now!  Tilly: You've done extremely well. Of course they have. He's got very red, a bit like Rudolph. The thing is there's just that wind, and it's the wind that drops the temperature, that chill factor.  Adam: Yeah. So where are we going, Tilly?  Tilly: So we're heading out towards what we call Silver Mount. They're not in here all year. Different times of year, sometimes they're all free range, some of them are free ranging, some are in here.  Adam: When you speak about free range, literally they can go anywhere?  Tilly: Yes they can.  Adam: And they come back because they know where the food is?  Tilly: Yes they do. They know where the food is, they sort of know where the home is, but they do wander out onto the high ground as well, more in the summertime.   Adam: Right. And is that, I mean Scotland has different rules. There's a right to roam sort of rule here. Does that apply to reindeer? Is that the issue?  Tilly: That is a moot point.  Adam: Oh, really? We've hardly started and I've got into trouble.   Tilly: No. Well, we lease 6000 acres, right? So we lease everything out to the skyline.  Adam: So that's an extraordinary range for them.  Tilly: It is an extraordinary range, but they know no bounds. I have to say reindeer sometimes do just pop over the boundary.  Adam: And that causes problems with the neighbours?  Tilly: Well, some like it, some aren't so keen. And we herd them as well, so we can herd them home. And we herd them by calling them.  Adam: I was going to say, do you have a skidoo, or?  Tilly: No, no. Absolutely no vehicular access on the hill. It's all by Shanks's pony, everywhere.  Adam: Really. So you walk, and then you just ring a bell to herd them, or what do you do?  Tilly: And you ‘loooooow, come on now!' and they come to us.  Adam: Right. And so what was the call again?  Tilly: ‘Looow, come on now!'  Adam: Come on now, is that it? OK, very good. OK, I now move.  Tilly: Yes. But hopefully they won't all come rushing from over there.  Adam: I was going to say, yes, we've now called out the reindeer.  Tilly: We've just joined a cow and calf here, who have just come down to the gate, and you can see just for yourself, they're completely benign. They're so docile and quiet. There's no sort of kicking or pushing or anything. They're very, very gentle creatures.  Adam: And is that because they've been acclimatised because tourists come, or would that be their natural behaviour?  Tilly: It is their natural behaviour, bearing in mind that reindeer have been domesticated for thousands of years. We're not looking at a wild animal here that's got tame. We're looking at a domesticated animal.  Adam: Right.  Tilly: It's probably more used to people than some of the reindeer up in the Arctic. So we have domestication embedded in their genetics.  Adam: So what we're saying is, genetically, they're actually more docile. It's not because this particular reindeer is used to us. But originally then, if one goes back far enough, they were wilder?  Tilly: Yes so, it's a really interesting process of domestication of reindeer, which happened in the Old World, so Russia, Scandinavia, inner Mongolia, outer Mongolia. And that is reindeer and many, many reindeer in these Arctic areas, are domesticated. They're not wild.  Adam: And that started happening, do we have an idea when?  Tilly: Probably about 10,000 years ago. But if you go to the New World, to Alaska and North Canada, exactly the same animal is called a caribou. Caribou are never domesticated. The indigenous people of these areas never embraced the herding and enclosing of reindeer, which was caribou, whereas in the Old World it became very, very important to the men, the people's survival.  Adam: And then the caribou, do they have a different character?   Tilly: Yes, they're wilder. And it's a little bit difficult to show today – you see quite strong colour variation in reindeer, which you don't see in caribou, and colour variation is man's influence on selecting for colour. So you'd get very light coloured ones, you'd get white ones in reindeer, you'd get very dark ones, but in caribou they're all the same, brownie-grey colour. Yeah, they felt that the white reindeer were important in the herd for whatever reasons, Germanic reasons or whatever. Interestingly, the Sámi - and I'm not sure if there could be a white one up in the herd here at the moment - describe them as lazy reindeer, the white ones.  Adam: Why?  Tilly: Well, I didn't know why until I worked out why white reindeer are often deaf. So they sleep, they don't get up when everybody else gets up and moves, and this white reindeer doesn't realise that the herd has left them. So they're not all deaf, but certain white ones are.  Adam: Very important question, obvious but I didn't ask it to begin with because I'm a fool. Why are reindeer connected to Christmas?  Tilly: Well, that's a really good question, because actually they think it stems from a poet called Clement C Moore, who wrote a poem in America, he had Scandinavian Germanic connections, called The Night Before Christmas, where Donder, Blitzen, Cupid, Comet, fly through the air with Saint Nick in the sleigh, the little Santa.  Adam: Yeah.  Tilly: But, so that really set the scene of eight reindeer and the sleigh, and that was based on the Norwegian God Odin, who had eight legs and strode through the sky with these eight legs and eight reindeer. Then we have Rudolph, who turns up, but he doesn't turn up until the time of prohibition in America.  Adam: So Rudolph isn't in the original poem?  Tilly: Absolutely not. Rudolph is an impostor.  Adam: I didn't know that!  Tilly: He, so he, it was a marketing exercise for a department store during alcohol prohibition. And it was Rudolph with his red nose, and his red nose is because of alcohol.  Adam: Because he drank too much? So was it in favour of alcohol or was it going ‘what terrible thing happens to you when you drink'?  Tilly: I'm not terribly sure. But anyway, Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer was the song, so that adds to it. And then along comes Coca-Cola who used a red and white Santa to promote Coca-Cola at Christmas time. So the red and white Santa is Coca-Cola.  Adam: Right. And the red-nose reindeer is from alcohol and reindeer comes from an actual American poem, of which Rudolph wasn't part of anyway. That's all simple to understand then!  Tilly: Exactly. Perfect.  Adam: Well, we're moving up to some of the more exposed slopes. Tilly has gone ahead. I'm just going to catch up back with her, and ask how she started as one of UK's first reindeer herders. Well, certainly, one of our few reindeer experts.  Tilly: I came up to volunteer and I met the keeper who was looking after the reindeer for Dr Lindgren, who was the lady who brought them in with her husband, Mr Utsi, and he was quite good looking.   Adam: Is this a revelation you wish to make to them?  Tilly: And the reindeer were endearing, and the mountains were superb, and so I married the keeper.  Adam: Right, you did marry him! I thought you were telling me about another man other than your husband.  Tilly: So I married Alan. We married in 1983 and I've been here ever since.  Adam: And so the purpose of having reindeer here originally was what?  Tilly: Ah, good question. Mr Utsi came here and was very taken by the landscape and the environment, the habitat, because it was so similar to his own home country of north Sweden. And he begged the question where are the reindeer? Why are there not reindeer here? And it was on that notion that he and his wife, Dr Lindgren, devoted the latter half of their lives to bringing reindeer back to Scotland.  Adam: So that's interesting. So, it raises the difference of ecological or sort of natural question, of whether these are indigenous animals.  Tilly: Yes. So it's an interesting idea. Certainly, the habitat's available for them and they live in their natural environment. But when they became extinct, or not extinct, but when they weren't in Scotland, some people say as recently as 600 years ago and some people say as long as 2,000 years ago. If it's 2,000 years ago, they're described as a past native.  Adam: So OK, I didn't realise that, but is there any debate around whether they were originally - whatever originally is –  Tilly: They were definitely here.  Adam: So they are native? They're not sort of imported, they have died out and been brought back here.  Tilly: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, they were reintroduced, but how, what that time span is, some people say sooner than later, and Mr Utsi certainly identified this as a very suitable spot for them.  Adam: Any idea why they might have died out? Do we know?  Tilly: Probably a bit of climate change and also probably hunting. Very easy animal to hunt. Are you OK with this chitter chatter going on?  Adam: Yes, it's all good, and a bit of, do you call it mooing?   Tilly: Oh no, the reindeer aren't making any noise, they're clicking.  Adam: Someone was mooing!  Tilly : I think it was the people.  Adam: I thought it was the reindeer making that noise.   Tilly: Not at all. They're very silent.   Adam: They'd have left this podcast thinking reindeer moo.  Tilly: They would have. Exactly. No, they are really, really silent animals.  Adam: There's a very large reindeer there coming down the road.  Tilly: Oh, that's OK, that's Akubra, he'll do nothing to you at all. He's an absolute genuine reindeer. He's lovely. But he listened to the clicking as they walk. You can't hear it because of your headphones.  Adam: OK, so I guess later on I'll put a microphone on a reindeer. That will be a first. One other thing I always imagined when you saw a set of antlers on a sort of grand Scottish mansion, I thought, oh well, they've killed that the reindeer. And actually, that's not true, is it? They fall off.  Tilly: They do. You're absolutely right. Having it depends how you see the antlers. If the antlers are still on a skull, that animal has been killed and there's nothing wrong with that. There is a, you know, the animals need to be controlled. But you're also right. Antlers are lost every year and regrown again, so they cast their antlers and they regrow their antlers. So in a reindeer's life, if a reindeer is 10 years old, he will have just grown his 11th set of antlers.  Adam: And the purpose of antlers is fighting? I'm a big girl, I'm a big boy, whatever.   Tilly: Yeah, mainly for fighting, a weapon. So for the big breeding males, it's for claiming harem for females, so in the breeding season. And those big breeding bulls will actually lose their antlers around about now, their antlers will fall off and then they won't regrow their antlers until next spring, right? The females, little females like this, keep those boney antlers all winter and they use them for competing for food, so they can jab another reindeer and push it off and they can get into the food as a result.   Adam: The other thing I can notice about some of them, but not the reindeer in front of us, but I think the one walking away, although this looks very bony, the other one has sort of felt on it, and what looks like blood. So what's going on there?  Tilly: Yes. So they are the velvet antlers on the Christmas reindeer that have finished growing, but they don't lose the velvet properly and there is still potentially blood in the bone, as it were.  Adam: So there's this sort of capillary underneath the felt.  Tilly: Yes, exactly, because the antler's a really interesting appendage because it grows from the tip. It doesn't grow from the base, so the blood supply has to go all the way to the tip to grow. And the velvet skin carries that blood supply.  Adam: Right. I see. So now the reindeer in front of us has no velvet so that can't grow.  Tilly: And no blood supply. Exactly. And the only way she can grow, get more antlers or bigger antlers, is to lose the whole thing and grow it again next year. Yes.  Adam: So any other serious facts we should note, to inform ourselves about reindeer?  Tilly: Oh, lots of serious facts. So they're the only deer species where the males and the females grow antlers. Every other deer species, it's only the males that grow the antlers. They are the only deer species that's been domesticated by man. All the other species of deer, we're talking about 40 different species, are all truly wild animals. They can survive in the coldest parts of the world, so in the middle of Siberia, the temperature can go down to -72 and reindeer are still living there quite happily.  Adam: It's cold today, but it's probably -2 or something.  Tilly: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Man cannot live in the Arctic without an animal to live by, and it's reindeer that he lives by. Man would never have gone into these areas. Obviously now they're all digging up, you know, getting the oil and the gas and everything. But indigenous man can only survive in these areas if he has reindeer as his farm animal of the north, so they're really important to the indigenous people of the north.  Adam: And in that sort of role, then, you can clearly eat reindeer. Then what else does it provide us?  Tilly: Absolutely. So it provides with meat. There are indigenous people that milk them in season. They have these tremendous coats that are used for covering tents and for people's, you know, clothing. And the antlers? Not now, but the antlers would have been used as tools in the past.  Adam: And have you ever had reindeer milk?  Tilly: I have tried, yes, we have milked the odd reindeer for one reason or another. It's very rich, very rich.  Adam: You have! Rich, is that good or quite fatty? Is it drinkable?  Tilly: That's good. Yeah, it's totally drinkable. Totally nice.  Adam: Yeah, I think yaks or a drink made from yaks, which was disgusting, I found in Mongolia, but I really found it difficult. It wasn't my thing.  Tilly: But it wasn't the fermented one, was it? Because in Mongolia they're into fermented mare's milk.   Adam: That might be what I had.  Tilly: And that is revolting.   Adam: Yes, OK, that's maybe what I had. How unusual is reindeer milk then?  Tilly: Yeah. It's got a very high fat content. They produce very little milk, because if you had a great big swinging under in in freezing conditions, you'd have ice cream, you wouldn't have milk.  Adam: The other thing I noticed that we haven't talked about is their hooves which look quite large and they look, I mean just from a distance, quite mobile.  Tilly: Yes. They are very, very, very flexible animals and their feet, their hooves are very big. Of course, for snow. Walking on the snow, spreading the weight, but also great shovels for digging. So they dig. You know, if you're in two feet, three feet of snow in north Sweden, you've got to get to the food underneath and to get to it, they need to dig. So they're great diggers.  Adam: And your life now here. It's quite a change from where you grew up, I appreciate.  Tilly: Certain years, a very rural life I had then. I have an equally country-wise life now. I will go to my grave with reindeer. They are my complete nutter passion. They are the most wonderful animals to be amongst, they put a smile on your face. They live in a beautiful area. They're just, they're just lovely animals and they give me a lot of pleasure. Yeah, yeah.  Adam: Fantastic. And if people are in the Cairngorms and want to have their own trip to see the reindeer, they call the what?  Tilly: They call the Cairngorm Reindeer Centre. You could do it on the website, you can ring us up and they need to dress up. I'm sure you appreciate you, are your feet cold yet?  Adam: No, look, I stopped off and bought extra thermals on my way.  Tilly: Very good.  Adam: Well, thank you very much. It's been a real treat, thank you very much.  Tilly: Brilliant. Oh, well, thank you for coming.  Adam: Well, I'm afraid I'm having to leave the reindeer behind because we're now heading to a little lower ground to see what I'm told is an amazing forest of Caledonian pine. And to learn a bit more about the trees and their relative, the other pine, which we all know as the Christmas tree. And we're off to meet a guy who looks after the Glencharnoch Wood in Carrbridge, near the River Spey and Dulnain. And now, despite it, it's a quite a small forest, I think. But despite that, it's quite well known for being really important, really big on biodiversity. And it's home to a number of species including, but not just them, but including the red squirrel and the crested tit.  Ross: My name's Ross Watson. I'm the site manager for North Scotland for the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Brilliant. Ross, we have come on an extraordinary day. It has snowed. It looks picturesque, chocolate box, shortbread box maybe, type stuff, so fantastic. So just tell me where we are.  Ross: Well, we're in Glencharnoch wood. It's a wood that the Woodland Trust owns and it's part of a series of little woodlands on the back of Carrbridge between Carrbridge and the railway. And the Woodland Trust has had it for a number of years. It's a little site, only 36 acres, but it's a pine wood site and a really important pine wood site at that, in that it's a small part of much bigger Caledonian forests.  Adam: OK. Well, I want to talk to you about pine wood, because I think it just sort of gets dismissed – ‘oh this pine wood, not important, not interesting'. Apart from Christmas, perhaps, when suddenly it becomes really important, but I want to unpack all of that with you, but just explain to you we're going to go on a little walk. Hopefully you know where you're going. Good. All right, so just explain a bit about where we're going, give me a sense of the pattern of where we're going.  Ross: Absolutely. We're going to take a circular walk around the woodlands. The woodlands here, it's all about community. Everything we do here is around that tree. We're going to walk through a piece of land that's owned by the local authority and then go through our own land and onto privately owned land and then come back to our own land. And it really shows the connectivity of all these different habitats, all the different landowners. But really the path network is there for the community that's here and they are involved in practice as well.  Adam: So. Pine wood. Yeah, it sort of gets bunched all together, and especially the Scots pine I hear a lot about. But there are there are big, big differences and varieties are there? Tell me a bit about them.  Ross: The Scots pine we are walking through are really special species. That's the only native conifer in the UK, right? And that's why they're so special here. Really these Scots pine provide their own habitat all of their own. They're incredibly threatened. As a habitat in Scotland, we've got just a number of Caledonian pine inventory sites. We've got ancient woodlands, designated sites.  Adam: Sorry, just to stop you - Caledonian pine, Scots pine, interchangeable words?  Ross: Yeah, good point. The Great Wood of Caledon was the reference of the name of the forest that was here, the old, the original boreal forest that gradually reduced in size. Partly through climate change as the country became cooler and wetter, but also through human intervention through felling, fires, grazing, all that kind of thing. So now we tend to talk about Scots pine and Cally pine which can be fairly interchangeable, but the Cally pine tends to be the bigger, grander kind of granny pines, these really lovely old things you see in some of the landscapes.  Adam: But that's sort of just the way people use the word. Technically, they're the same thing, but we refer to the Caledonian pine as the big grand ones, and it comes from… so I just want to make sure I understood what you said. The word Caledonian pine then comes from a Caledonian, a forest called Caledonia?   Ross: Yeah, the Great Wood of Caledon.   Adam: Isn't that a brilliant name? So mystical and it sort of talks of Tolkien and other worlds. Wow, wow. OK. So we have the great Scots pine, the Caledonian pine. If people have a general thing in their mind about pine trees, what is special about Caledonian pine? How that distinguishes from pines in other parts of the world.  Ross: Well, Scots pine, as we're walking through this woodland, just now as you look up the trunks of the trees, as you look up the bark tends to go from a kind of grey-brown to a real kind of russety red, like a red squirrel colour. And that's a lot of the red squirrel camouflage comes from that, that rusty colour. So they're skittering around these treetops and they can be jumping around and they're nice and camouflaged because of that colour. So is that redness that you really see? But what we can see in here, a lot of these trees are very even age, it has been quite heavily thinned in the past, but then you come across a tree like this that's got a very deep crown. So you see there's live branches more than halfway down that tree, whereas there's a lot of these other trees -  Adam: Yes, I was going to say it's weird that they've got no foliage until very high.  Ross: Yeah, so this tree here, and foresters may call this a wolf tree, a tree that has occupied a space and it's just sat there and doesn't allow anything around it.   Adam: It's called a wolf tree?  Ross: Some people would refer to it as a wolf tree. What we would refer to that is it's a deep crown tree, not very imaginatively named, but a deep crown tree is really important here because of capercaillie. Now, capercaillie, you imagine a capercaillie's a big bird, a turkey-sized bird, almost waist height, a male capercaillie. And in the winter it will walk out across these branches and it will nibble away at some of the needles, and it will sit there and it will rely on that during deep snow for shelter, security, food. So without these deep crown trees, there isn't anywhere for them to go. So if you imagine a plantation, a very dense pine that are much denser than this and they don't have the chance for any deep crown trees. Then the opportunity for capercaillie here is much reduced.  Adam: Right. So there's sort of, I mean, look the elephant in the room. Well, it's Christmas around the corner. People have Christmas trees. Sort of most people know anything about pine, it's because they have it in their house at Christmas. That's not a Scots pine.  Ross: No, your traditional Christmas tree is a Nordmann fir. A fir tree tends to hold onto needles a little longer than a pine tree. And if you look after the pine, it will retain its needles, but quite often the pine trees will grow slightly too quickly, so it'll be a bit bare as a Christmas tree, whereas a fir tree is kind of hairy enough to be a good Christmas tree.  Adam: Right. And do we have, do we have them planted in the UK as well? I mean just for commercial cropping?  Ross: Yes, as a Christmas tree.  Adam: Right. So the other thing, look, we're in a really lovely forest at the moment. We're the only ones here. But Scotland, the iconic pictures of Scotland, are bare, bare mountains, aren't they? They're not wooded, and yet I've always read that that's not how it used to be. It used to be a wooded part of the country. Why did it lose so much of its woodland?  Ross: Well, it's looking back to, what, centuries ago as the climate became cooler and wetter, the tree line reduced in height. But more recently in the 1800s the Cultural Revolution created huge periods of felling where they needed this timber for industrialization. Trees from the woodlands near here were cut down, they were floated down to the river Spey and then out to Spey Bay and the Moray coast. They were used for underground water piping for ship's masts. Because these trees are, as you can feel today it's a cold place to be, they've grown very slowly. So because they're nice and straight as we can see, they are, the rings are very close together, so they're very sturdy. They're an ideal timber source. But then we start to look at deer numbers increasing and sheep numbers increasing. The more mouths on the hill meant that once you cut these trees down, it was much harder for the trees to come away again. And really, that's the landscape we're in now really. And when we're talking about those very large, deep crowned trees on open hillsides, these kind of granny pines are so picturesque, and really a lot of these trees, there was no timber value in them because they were already so crooked and they were left, and this is almost a remnant that's showcasing the old forest that once was standing there.  Adam: A lot of times, site managers, they're trying to keep things steady in a way, I suppose. Just trying to maintain what's going, keep that going, that's hard enough. Is that the job here or do you have bigger plans? Are there, you know, times are changing?  Ross: Well, this is one of eight woodlands I look after across the north of Scotland. Whenever we're doing anything, no matter what the scale of it, it's not just how do we keep the site going and kind of steady. It's about when we are doing work, how do we add value to that to make it better for the people that are living here? And how do we use that to continue to showcase these sites as the shop window for the Woodland Trust?  Adam: And is the idea here to try and remove the non-Scots pine, so you'd have a pure Scots pine forest?  Ross: Well, the Woodland Trust works on a on a threat basis really. So any tree is better than no tree, right? But if you have got a lot of spruce regeneration that's threatening this ancient wood then we need to begin to remove that. And that's been the case here.  Adam: Sorry I'm pausing because there's a lovely spaniel who I can see wants me to throw a stick, but I won't throw the stick. Very cool dog. There we are. Sorry, we were saying yes, so any tree is better than no tree. But are the other trees a threat then or not?  Ross: Well, the Norway spruce here has been seeding regeneration into the woodland areas and over the last few years we've cleared a lot of that and in some of these nice young spruce, we've been able to provide to the community for Christmas trees, which has been really handy. But all of that is gone now and we're left with this core of, of mature Norway spruce, that a number of them have started to snap so are becoming a safety issue for members of the public using footpaths next to it. But also there's an opportunity there where before that timber dies, we can extract it and it can be useful for the community.  Adam: And you'd replace it with Scots pines.  Ross: No, we're going to replace it predominantly with hazel and aspen. Because one of the slight concerns in having a single species stand, like we have here, where it's all Scots pine, is that there's only one species for the likes of red squirrels or the crossbills. And on a day like today we might hear crossbows coming over. There's only one species here for them, whereas if we're planting hazel, which is under-represented species here, that provides a different food for red squirrels in a different part of the woodland. And aspen is one of the most biodiverse species that we would have in this part of the world. And there are very, very few aspen.  Adam: When you say it's the most biodiverse species, you mean it attracts biodiversity?  Ross: Absolutely yes. In terms of the lower plant assemblage that's on there specifically and insects. And aspen, their Latin name is Populus tremula and the tremula comes from the oval shape on the leaf. Just in the slightest breeze, it's adapted that to try and shake off the insect burden because the leaves are so palatable for insects.  Adam: So the shape of the leaf in wind -  Ross: The shape of this stock of the leaf is oval.  Adam: And that helps shift any insects.   Ross: Yeah, yeah.   Adam: It's interesting because aspen, in my ignorance, I associate with aspen in America, but it's a native UK tree.  Ross: It is, yeah. And it will be one of the first colonisers after the Ice Age. That's, an aspen will have, the seed will have blown down as the ice is receding. But some of the aspen that are here now will be some of the oldest trees that exist in the UK and aspen generally now grows rhizomatously, so you'll see the roots through the forest and all of the suckers will pop out. And the aspen that we can see in the woodland today, they could have been here for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, and they've just, as the clone has marched through the landscape, it's just it's moved and colonised these different areas. They're fascinating trees. So when you look at some of the images in North America, you might see entire hillsides of aspen and that could all be the same tree essentially, they're amazing organisms.  Adam: That's amazing. So it's sort of cloning really.   Ross: Yeah, absolutely.  Adam: That's amazing. And also I can see right on the Scots pine behind you, beautiful lichen, which is just a real sign of the air quality here, isn't it? I mean, it doesn't grow and it's just often further south. We do see lichen, obviously, but often I see a bit. This is everywhere. It's a real sign this is good land.  Ross: Absolutely, yeah.  Adam: Good land, good air. Wonderful. Well, I'm going to take another shot of our colleague down below. Hello. Wearing a lovely red hat, almost looks like Santa. And then we'll move on. So we're going uphill a bit, you might just hear the snow crunching under my boots. So this is amazing. A wolf peeking out from the woods, which adds to the fairy tale quality of all of this forest walk. This is not a real wolf. This is carved in wood. It looks really beautiful and it's covered in snow at the moment, which maybe is why I didn't spot it at first. So what's the story here?  Ross: Well, the story here is that Carrbridge hosts the Scottish chainsaw carving competition every year at the end of August, and there are chainsaw artists coming from all over the world to compete here to do some incredibly elaborate carvings. They do benches and three-to-four-metre statues and it's absolutely incredible.   Adam: This is very delicate that I'm surprised this would be done with a chainsaw.  Ross: Yeah, it's a very specialist skill as you can see, and people have to be very artistic. You have to be very good with the saw, but also the bar of the saw is a specialist carving tool. But then they also can use all sorts of other implements to try and refine the artwork itself. And this is just one part of that much larger chainsaw carving trail that's in Carrbridge that really commemorates this annual event.  Adam: Amazing. Well, we'll leave the wolf. It's got even a little dark nose. Amazing. A little dog, a real dog this time. Well, yes, just to prove it. We've just seen some reindeer. Obviously they're a type of deer. Are they as much of a problem as the normal red deer that we know about? So what's your view on them?  Ross: Well, red deer, the numbers are extremely high in some places and in the Cairngorms, they're generally much better managed. But in other places where there just isn't that, that integration or the objectives are yet to be aligned with protected areas, the numbers in those places need to come down, but recognising that there are different objectives, there are different landowners who want to do different things with land. So in recognising and respecting those objectives, but generally, ideal numbers need to come down and they need to come down a lot in order for trees and woodland to recover.  Adam: But that's deer in general, just because it's Christmas, I just have reindeer on the mind. You don't see many reindeer here. Or any reindeer here?  Ross: No, you see them up in the Cairngorms, right?   Adam: Right. Another pitstop. I see some lichen with some snow on it. I should turn them into Christmas cards. I won't, but that's what I should do. So if there was a sort of a final thought you wanted people to take away about this forest or about Caledonian pines you're trying to protect and grow here, what might that be?  Ross: Well, for this woodland, and as I say, it's only 36 acres in size, it's a fairly small wood. But it's not to discount that, and we talk about the hundreds of ants nests, the crossbills, the crested tits, it's woodlands like this can punch way above their weight. But also woodlands like this connected together provide a much larger, integrated robust habitat. And it's just thinking along these lines that this, this woodland, although it has the A9 on one side, it's got roads on two other sides, it's got a forest adventure park there and to the other side, it feels like a woodland that could be squeezed, but it can also feel like a woodland that is a part of this much larger landscape and contributing to that. And I suppose in part it depends on how you view that, yeah. But the woodland is connected to its woodlands round about, so it's definitely playing its part and part of that recovery of the old Caledonian pine forest of Scotland, as small as it is.  Adam: It's been a real treat for you to guide us through it on such a special snowy Christmas-y day. So thank you very much indeed.   Ross: No problem.   Adam: Well, it's been a fantastic day. Which leaves me just say from the land of reindeer and Caledonian pine, can I wish you a very happy, peaceful and joyous Christmas and New Year? And I do hope that wherever you are, you are able to share the joy of this season and that you'll join us in the New Year for lots more podcasts and tree adventures. Until then, from all of us in the Woodland Trust podcast team, to all of you, can we wish you a happy Christmas and a great New Year and of course, happy wanderings.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Join us for a woodland wander with adventurer, author and tree lover, Al Humphreys. The 2012 National Geographic Adventurer of the Year has cycled round the world, rowed the Atlantic and walked across India, but now focuses on pursuits closer to home. Pioneering the concept of microadventures, Al explains how exploring small pockets of nature in our neighbourhoods helps us to better connect with and care for the environment. He speaks of enabling young people to embrace wild places, and encourages us to take time to be curious and astonished as we discover new places on our doorstep. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Today I am off to meet an author and adventurer, and there's a title you don't get to say, or indeed hear very much. He's the author of a whole ton of books, including Microadventures, which I want to talk to him specifically about, but also books called the Doorstep Mile, Local, There Are Other Rivers, Grand Adventures, Moods of Future Joys, Midsummer Mornings, Thunder and Sunshine, and I could go on and on. And I'm meeting him at a Woodland Trust site called Ashenbank Wood. It's a Site of Special Scientific Interest in the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty and is teeming with extraordinary wildlife. So we'll be talking a bit about the woods and a bit about the sort of adventures he's been on and the sort of adventures we might all be able to go on. Anyway, I'll let him introduce himself. Al: My name's Alastair Humphreys. I'm an adventurer and a writer and tree lover. Adam: Which sounds very exciting. So when you say you're an adventurer, what does that sort of mean? Al: Well, I was slightly hesitant to say that because I confess I feel more like an ex-adventurer, but I have spent pretty much all my career going off doing big adventures and then coming home and writing and speaking and making films about them. So they've gone ever smaller. I began by spending four years cycling around the world, I've rowed across the Atlantic Ocean, walked across the Empty Quarter desert, played my violin incredibly badly through Spain, and then gradually smaller onto what I call microadventures. So, encouraging people to find short, simple, affordable adventures close to home and squeezing around their busy daily lives. Adam: So that's interesting. You talk about the mini adventures. On a previous podcast we talked to the natural navigator, I don't know. Al: Ohh yes, Tristan. Well, he could tell you a lot more intelligent things than I can. He's great. Adam: No, but I think he took very much the similar view of yours. He went, I've done all these big adventures. But actually when you're doing these big adventures, it's all about tech, you know, and I needed satellite link ups and all sorts of stuff. And actually I wasn't, I was really looking at screens all the time. And he was going, the smaller adventures are actually much more revolutionary, because if you go low tech, that's a proper adventure. Just trying to find your way through a wood is a real adventure in a curious sort of way, even more challenging than doing something which sounds really flash. Al: Yes. And what Tristan's done fantastically is taking those skills from bigger journeys down to his literal daily life, hasn't he? If you, I get an e-mail from him, I think it's weekly or so and it just essentially says, where am I now and which way am I facing? And from his little clues in the local park, he can tell whether it's north, south, east, and west. Adam: Yes. No, you're right. I tried. I was very bad at that. And what I've learned, I've already forgotten. So tell me a little bit about why your connection to nature, then, how important that is to you, if at all. Al: So I had a nice, happy childhood growing up in the countryside, so as a kid I spent a lot of time running around the fields and woods and streams and things, so I suppose that hammers something deep into your subconscious, although you don't really notice it necessarily as a kid. Adam: Where whereabouts was that? Al: In the Yorkshire Dales. Adam: Ohh, God's own country. Amazing place. Al: Yes. Lovely part of the world. Yeah, so I really enjoyed that, and then my big expeditions, I've spent a lot of time in some of the world's really wild places and that's a fantastic backdrop to your adventures. But actually my – oh, and I also did a zoology degree. Although I found it incredibly boring, and now looking back I find it amazing that you can find something like that boring. But it's taken me stopping the big adventures, slowing down, paying attention to my local area to build a deeper connection with nature. And I don't know if that's partly just me getting old as well, I suspect there is an aspect of that. But whereas in my youth I was sort of cycling moderately quickly across continents and now pottering around small little parks and I have time to be astonished in a way that you don't necessarily when you're on a big A to B kind of journey. Adam: Yes, yes, there's the mechanics of getting you somewhere so challenging. Al: Yes, and you're on a mission. The mission is to go from A to B and not die, and to succeed. And that's all quite, and the backdrop of it all is this wonderful nature. But the things I've been doing more recently, then nature has come to the forefront. I'm not really doing any big, exciting mission. And therefore the paying attention to the small bits of nature and the changing seasons comes to the forefront. Adam: Yes, I did, I was just going to stop here. We're by one of the Woodland Trust sign posts about fungi and deadwood and the importance of that. We can talk a bit about that. But I was just thinking about what you said. I did an expedition across the Gobi in Outer Mongolia. I was working in Outer Mongolia, and it was, you're right, it was more interesting in retrospect. Because when I was there, we were just very concerned about the mechanics of the day. Getting through the day, making sure we weren't lost, getting food, all of that, rather than go ‘this is quite an interesting place'. Al: Yes. Adam: Whereas, because we didn't meander, you go, I think the importance of meandering and almost lost time, and in a way, I think, boredom. I mean, it was interesting to talk about kids, you know, I don't know if you've got kids, but I think there's a lot of pressure on people to keep the kids busy, get them to this class, to do this, do this, do this. Actually the importance of just going, you know, ‘they're bored now, they'll just go do something', is quite interesting. Al: Yeah. And I think that's a fantastic aspect of it, a bit of woodland like this, isn't it? Is to bring some kids here and essentially say there is nothing to do here, but equally you can do whatever you want. So go on, clear off. Off you go, go climb some of these trees, pick up some sticks, rummage around, see what you find. And that's the great thing of a woodland like this. Adam: Yeah. Do you have kids? Al: I do, yes. Adam: Well, how old are they? Al: Well, they are entering the dreaded teenage phase. So the um, it's really interesting, actually, because they're completely addicted to their screens and that would be their preferred choice would be to live in a damp, dark, smelly cave and never emerge. But when I drag them by their hair kicking and screaming into a wood like this, they're grumpy for a couple of minutes and then I just say clear off, go away and then they love it. And there's a real physical and mental transformation that's clear, when you can, once they get out here. Adam: Yeah. So I think that's interesting. And as a parent and everything, I just wonder what your take is on trying to engage a younger generation with nature and whether that's difficult, how you do it and whether we should be doing that, is that a concern of us or just, you know, let people do what they want? Al: I think it's a massive, massive concern and I also think it's extremely difficult. These screens are deliciously alluring. That's how they're designed. You know, if I was a kid today, I'd love to be just scrolling mindlessly through a thousand videos of people falling off their bikes. If it's endlessly addictive. So I think it's very, very hard and being a parent is exhausting. It's quite easy to not bother with the kicking and screaming, going to the woods, but I think it's really, really vital to do and the reward of when you get them out is of seeing how transformative that is for them, but also for yourself is really good. So yeah, I think screens are a massive problem. I think the nature disconnection of our society is a huge problem, both in terms of our physical health, our mental health, but also with our ignorance to the decline of species and the loss of wild places. So I think it's an enormous problem. Adam: And I mean you know, you're a broadcaster, you create a huge amount of content yourself. So I think there's an interesting question about how to frame that, because I fear then talking about all the trees are disappearing and wildlife is dying and that it turns, well, everybody, but perhaps especially younger generations off. They go, well if it's that blooming terrible, well, I'd just rather be on my screen. So how do you get that tone right, do you think? Al: That's a question that I've been thinking a lot about, particularly over the last year or so. I've just finished writing a book, which is all about exploring your local area, and when I wrote the book, in the early months of it, it was very much a moaning, ranting disaster book that everything's doomed and that it's all ruined. But as I was reading through my drafts, I was thinking, geez, this is this is, well, no one's going to read it for a start. But also, it's not going to encourage anyone. But as the project went on, I realised that I didn't need to frame it like that, because I could look at it another way, which was how much I personally was loving getting out into these small pockets of nature, what benefits I was getting and how much I was enjoying it. And then the more that I personally enjoyed it, the more I start to become connected and the more I start to care and the more hopefully I start to take action. So I think you're exactly right to try and frame it as a positive thing of saying hey, get out into X, Y and Z for these fantastic reasons and then hopefully the fixing the planet part will take care of itself, once there's enough people enthused. Adam: Yeah, interesting. Well, look, we'll carry on, but I said we stopped at this post. So the many dead and decaying trees you find here play a vital role in Ashenbank Wood's ecosystem. And that's a theme you'll see in lots of Woodland Trust places where deadwood is actually allowed to stay. In fact, it's not just allowed to stay, it's positively encouraged because of the fungi and the invertebrates, and then all the way up to the different sorts of animals that can live off that. So what looks like sort of untidiness is sometimes a real sort of oasis of life. Al: And this woodland here was completely smashed by the huge hurricane in 1987. So I think more than most woodlands, there's a lot of fallen down trees in this wood, which I suppose previously would have been carted off and chopped up for firewood or something. Adam: So let's, I mean, we're walking down this idyllic sort of dappled light, coming through the canopy of the still full roof of this of this woodland. So this is really idyllic, but take me somewhere else. So tell me about those adventures that you've had in these distant lands. Were there any particular that stand out for any particular reason? Al: Well, given that we're talking about trees, I spent 10 weeks, I think it was, on the frozen Arctic Ocean, up near the North Pole, which was a fantastic expedition itself, but the small detail that sticks with me now is that to get up there, you fly to Canada, then you fly to some smaller place in Canada and the planes gradually get smaller and smaller and the safety regulations get more and more lax till you're on the plane with people with rifles and harpoons and stuff. But up to this tiny little community right up in the north of Canada and the people - I went to visit the primary school there in the morning just to chat to the kids about my adventures and stuff. And they were chatting about my adventures and they were, the little kids there were amazed that I'd never seen a polar bear. And my riposte to them was along the lines of but you've never seen a tree! Where they where they lived, there were no trees, literally none above the tree line, and that really struck me, what it would be like to grow up in a place with zero trees. I mean, you get polar bears, which is pretty cool, but I'd be sad to have no trees. Adam: Yes, yeah, yes. And what was their view of that? Do they go well, I've never seen that, don't miss. Or were they interested in that? Al: Yeah, well, I guess everyone's normal is normal, isn't it? You know, they're going to school on skidoos and things like that. And so, yeah, it's just fascinating to see the different people's views of normal in the world. And before I started my big adventures, one of the motivating factors for me wanting to go off around the world was that I found where I lived incredibly boring, as a lot of young people do. Oh my goodness, where I live is the most boring place in the universe. I need to go far, far away. And it took me going far, far away to realise that actually the stuff I'd left behind is pretty fascinating in its own way. If only you're willing to pay attention to it. Adam: Yes, gosh, it sounds almost like a line from one of Tolkien's books. There you do a long adventure to find true interest is nearer to home. So I know you've written lots of things, but you've got a book just come out. So yeah, tell me, what's that book about then? Al: So I've written a book that's called Local, and it's about spending a whole year exploring only the single Ordnance Survey map that I happen to live on. So, the whole of Britain's divided up into about just over 400 Ordnance Survey maps. So wherever you live, you could go to your local bookshop and buy your local map. And what I'm trying to do is encourage people to do that and to realise how much new, undiscovered stuff is on their doorstep. Woodlands, footpaths, hills, fields but also towns, villages. What's behind the industrial yards? Like a proper exploring curiosity to your own backyard. Adam: And how much area does one of those maps cover then? Al: It's the orange Ordnance Survey maps. They're more detailed. So it's roughly 20 kilometres by 20 kilometres. Adam: Right. So a fair amount. Al: It's a fair amount, but I've also in previous time spent a year crossing an entire continent, so in that sense it felt incredibly tiny to me. And when I began the project, I thought ‘this map is so small, it's going to be so claustrophobic and so boring'. But actually, by the end of the year, I realise, wow, actually it's enormous. I haven't even begun to cover everything on the map. Adam: So what sort of things did you find there that was a surprise to you, then? Al: So what I did every week, I would go out once a week for the whole year and my rule was to explore one grid square a week. So a kilometre square chosen at random and the random was really important because if it wasn't random, all I would do is just choose all the nice bits of woodland around my map. But by making it random, it sent me off to towns and suburbs and motorway junctions and all sorts of random stuff. And I discovered a few things. The first thing I discovered was how little I knew this area that I thought I knew very well indeed. The second thing that I realised was that, yeah, of course it's nice to go out to woods and hills and streams and stuff, but also I was surprised how much I loved the forgotten grid squares, the abandoned bits, the broken down, fallen down, behind the warehouse kind of landscapes. Like what's behind the supermarket car park? And I found in these forgotten edgelands a real sense of wildness and solitude that I didn't get in somewhere lovely. And this wood we're in now is lovely, but you're not going to get much solitude. There's a lot of dog walkers wandering around. And whereas if you're sort of behind some factory and some regenerating thicket, you think, wow, no one comes here. This feels adventurous. This feels wild. No one on the planet knows where I am. I'm only 20 minutes from a massive city, so I really was surprised how much I liked the forgotten corners of my map. Adam: Well, it sounds romantic the way you describe it, but behind a dumpster or a big factory? I don't really want to go there. Al: Why not? Adam: Because it's not pretty. It's probably got some unsavoury characters hanging around there. It might be more dangerous than crossing, you know, at some wild tundra, so it doesn't attract. I mean, but it does attract you, genuinely? Al: I think I'd have agreed with you entirely beforehand. It seems much nicer to come to a pretty woodland and stroll around there. What surprised me was how rarely I saw people when I was out and about, and we live in a very crowded country. I live in a crowded corner of the country, and yet once I was off meandering, once you're slightly off the beaten track, it felt like I often had the place to myself. In terms of being scared, I never had any problems at all. But I was very conscious that I'm a six-foot-tall white man who's quite good at running and that the countryside in general is not equally accessible to everyone. That really struck home to me in the year, how the sort of privilege I have of being able to essentially wander wherever I want. And the worst thing that's happened, someone will say go away and I go, oh, I'm terribly sorry and be all sort of posh and cheerful and it'll be fine and that's not fair, and it's not right that there's that inequality. Adam: I wonder what you feel because we're talking now, a little after there was a big fuss in newspapers about Kirsty Allsop as children or a child who went off travelling and I think he was 16 or something like that. And it raised the debate whether that's right or wrong and people have their own views, it raised the debate about adventure, what it is, how much freedom we should give younger people. And there were lots of comments, you know, look back a generation, my parents' generation, you know, people of 17, 18 were fighting in wars. You know, the idea of going on Eurorail doesn't sound that adventurous by comparison. But it does engage with the natural world, doesn't it? You've done very adventurous things. What do you think about our position on safety now? The sort of vibe about that? Al: I think a relevant aspect of that discussion what we're talking about today is if you look at the roaming distances that kids have from home and you can see statistical maps of this online of how far our grandparents are allowed to go from home, you know, they'd get on their bicycle with a pickled egg and off they'd go for a month and then come home for their tea. All that sort of stuff. When I was a kid, I was basically in the Yorkshire Dales. I was basically allowed to go wherever I wanted, and then I'd just come home when I was hungry. And of course, I had no cell phone. And then kids today would not be generally allowed that sort of thing, and they're kept very much closer to home. And I think that trusting young people in wild places is an important thing to do. Adam: Well, on that note of wild places and adventure, we talked a lot about maps and if you want to visit Ashenbank Wood and are looking for a map, it is grid reference TQ 675692, map reference explorer 163, and OS land ranger 177. Good luck with finding this particular wood. I hope you enjoy it. And until next time, of course, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you.

Step into the heart of an ancient woodland as we explore Ashenbank Wood, a Site of Special Scientific Interest rich in history and teeming with wildlife. Woodland has stood here for centuries, but this haven is under threat. A proposed tunnel project, the Lower Thames Crossing, could harm the irreplaceable ecosystem and ancient trees here. Jack, leader of our woods under threat team, explains what's at stake and the challenges and strategies involved in trying to maintain a delicate balance between development and nature. A decision on whether the project goes ahead is due from Government in May 2025. We also meet estate manager Clive, who delves into Ashenbank Wood's history, tells us more about why ancient woodland is so important and shows us the unusual approach of strapping deadwood to trees. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Today I am at a site of Special Scientific Interest in the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which is teeming with extraordinary wildlife, and I'm told you can stand in the shadows of gnarled veteran trees and even spot some shy dormice, rare bats, and woodland wildflowers if you're there at the right time of year. But it is also a site under threat. National Highways propose to build a new tunnel linking Essex and Kent under the River Thames, and many feel that that will create a threat to the trees and wildlife here. So I've come not just for a walk, but to chat to experts and the first is the man responsible for coordinating the Woodland Trust response to big infrastructure projects and to chat to him about how infrastructure and nature can live hand in hand.  Jack: So I'm Jack Taylor, I'm the programme lead for the woods under threat team at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Brilliant. And we're at Ashenbank Woods?  Jack: We are indeed.  Adam: Good, OK, sorry, yeah *laughs* I know I should sound more sure, we are at Ashenbank Woods.  Jack: I think its full title might be Ashenbank Woods SSSI, site of special scientific interest.  Adam: Oh right yes, yes. And we're going to see a bit later a colleague of yours, Clive, who will tell us more about the details of this woodland. But the reason why I wanted to talk to you first as we walk through, what is a lovely, actually dappled, dappled bit of woodland here is about your role in protecting places like this from development because, so what, what is your job?  Jack: Yeah, it's beautiful. That's a good question *laughs* what is my job? I I suppose the the base of it, the basis of it, the foundation really is about trying to protect ancient woods and ancient and veteran trees from forms of development, but also from other threats outside of that as well. So non-development threats like air pollution, pests and diseases, deer overbrowsing. Most of my work does focus on working within the development sector and trying to protect against those development threats.  Adam: Right, and you're the project lead.   Jack: Yeah.  Adam: When I first saw that, I thought you meant you're the project lead for this woodland, but you are not. You are the project lead for all development threatening woodlands throughout the UK. This is an extraordinary, I mean that's quite a job.  Jack: Yeah, it's it's a lot. There are a lot of threats to have to deal with across the UK because we're always building always sort of growing as a nation. We always need sort of new forms of infrastructure and new sort of housing. We recognise that. But all of that does come with the added impact of having threats on our ancient woods and ancient and veteran trees, so we have a team of myself and my my wonderful team of four as well.  Adam: Alright. Yeah, it's not big.  Jack: No, it's not big, but they they are enthusiastic and they're great at what they do.  Adam: So this is quite a political area because we've got a new government which has promised to improve lots of things, get the country working, build lots of homes. I think, I think the Prime Minister only recently talked about, you know, we're going to get spades in the ground, we're going to be doing stuff. Well, is it your job to stop all of that, I mean, or how do you balance what needs to be done for the country and what needs to be done to protect woodlands?  Jack: Yeah. So it's so none of this is really about stopping development from from happening and we we have to be sort of quite clear that that's not what we're set out to do as an organisation. It's about trying to ensure that where development is happening. It's not going to impact on our most important and our most valuable woods and trees and that's why we do have a focus specifically on ancient woodland, but and then also on ancient and veteran trees as well, because we know that for the most part, there are lots of really valuable woods and wooded and wooded habitats and trees that are plenty sort of valuable and important. But we know that ancient words and ancient and veteran trees are likely to be our most important sites. We have to focus on protecting those. So we do have to object to some developments where we think the harm is gonna be too great, but we're never really looking to stop them from happening, unless the harm is too great.  Adam: OK. Which way?  Jack: Umm, I think right.   Adam: OK. So one of the things I've noticed before, I mean, when I was following the HS2 debate, was politicians were going ‘it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. We'll cut this down, we're going to replace them. I tell you what, we'll do you a deal, we'll plant two for every one we cut down.' On the face of it that sounds reasonable?  Jack: OK. Yeah, not to us.   Adam: Why not?   Jack: Well, I think if you're, if you're looking at ancient woodlands and ancient and veteran trees, you're looking at something that is an irreplaceable habitat. There is no sort of recreating that habitat in in one space again, once it's been lost and the reason for that is these things take centuries to evolve and develop to create those sort of vital links between animals, plants, fungi, the soils as well. So ancient woodlands are especially important for their soils. So you can't really just take those soils and put them elsewhere because once that happens you completely disturb the relationships that have built up over centuries within them. And ancient and veteran trees, so you're talking about trees that for the most part are going to be centuries years old. How do you how do you replace centuries of development creating these wonderful sort of niche habitats for different parts of our ecosystems?   Adam: And is it, you said quite clearly that it's not your job or the Trust's job just to stop development, just to sort of blanket go, ‘hey, stop building' so is it about going, ‘don't build here' or is it about saying, ‘if you're gonna build here, this is how to do it with the least amount of impact'? What's the sort of your approach?  Jack: Yeah. In some cases it is about saying not, not building here. It depends what we're dealing with, I suppose so it's different if you're dealing with, say, housing developments or leisure facilities as opposed to something like rail infrastructure or road infrastructure, which is quite linear in nature, so they can only really go in one place to deliver its purpose, whereas housing is not as locationally dependent.  Adam: I see. So you feel you've got a better argument if it's a housing project, cause you can go, ‘put it somewhere else', but the train journey from A to B has to sort of go through this area. You're you're on a loser there are you?  Jack: Well, sometimes, but there are there are ways of of getting around sort of kind of impact. I mean it doesn't have to go absolutely sort of A to B in one way. You can think very carefully about the design to try and minimise impact on ancient woods. You can also look at alternative solutions, engineering solutions like tunnelling for example, so HS2 is a good example of that. The Phase One section which is going ahead between London and Birmingham, they actually put in a tunnel under the Chilterns, which saved about 14 hectares of woodland saved these three really good prime areas of ancient wood. And of course the Chilterns Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty came into that in a way, and they were trying to protect that also. But that was one solution to stop wildlife and nature being harmed.  Adam: Right. So that's, was this, were you involved with that?   Jack: Yeah, yeah.   Adam: Amazing. So how difficult was that to get that that project through and try to avoid the destruction of all that woodland?  Jack: Well, a lot a lot of destruction still is happening from High Speed 2. So about 20 hectares of ancient woodland has been destroyed at this stage now. A lot of the sort of preparation works for the Phase One section, that London to Birmingham bit, are now complete. So it it was difficult, but it it the way in which we were involved is we really brought ancient woodland to the table and put it at the forefront of considerations and and gave it a voice I suppose. It's not that it wasn't being looked at at all, but not nearly to the degree that we thought it needed to be looked at. And so we sort of kind of introduced that idea of well look, there's ancient woodland here, you need to be thinking carefully about the design and, you know, you think you're talking about halving the impacts on ancient woodlands from from our sort of kind of involvement and involvement of other conservation organisations in there as well.  Adam: So a lot of it is trying to say, to make the argument, but also to raise the profile of that argument,   Jack: Sure.  Adam: To bring, population and say this is actually a loss. You know, cutting it down is is a loss. So how much harder or easier has it got for you to make that argument?   Jack: Well, do you know, interestingly, I I would probably say that projects like High Speed 2, where there is such a big argument around the ancient woodland has raised the profile of ancient woodland itself. That's one of the sort of silver linings of that project for us, it's put sort of ancient woodland on the map in terms of habitat that needs to and is worthy of protection. So I think a lot of people now understand ancient woodland a bit better and what it is. There's still lots of awareness to do, you know, people just think of ancient woodlands as bluebells, big large oaks and it's not quite there. I mean, they're all so kind of varied in their nature and geographically across the country, but it's got people thinking about them.  Adam: So that was something of a success, although I know more complicated than just ‘yes, we won that'.   Jack: Sure, yeah.   Adam: Any areas you feel you really lost that, you know, keep you up at night, you go, that was that was a failure and you know, we've lost that woodland?  Jack: Yeah. I mean, there've been, there've been some over the years. Back in 2012 a a large quarry was built on an area of woodland called Oaken Wood in Kent, probably taking about out about 30 to 35 hectares of ancient woodland which is massive, massive amounts, I mean, you're talking about in the region it's like 40 to 50 football fields and and and we're actually dealing with another threat to that woodland from an expansion of that same quarry. So yeah, you know that that one is one that gnaws gnaws at us, is that, you know, we don't want to see that happening anymore.  Adam: Are you getting more optimistic that you know the public are more on your side that this is at least something that plays in policymakers' decisions now?  Jack: I I actually think the public have always really been on our side. I think if you ask the the general public, they would probably say to you, we do not want to see ancient woodlands subject to any loss or deterioration, whatever the cause.  Adam: Yeah, I think you're right. But they also say, yeah, but we like cheaper housing and want better transport links so.  Jack: Yeah. Well, I mean the Lower Thames Crossing, which is going to be affecting this site that we're in now, Ashenbank Wood is sort of a prime example of that the the intention of that project is to relieve traffic congestion on the existing Dartford Crossing.  Adam: Which I think actually I can hear in my headphones this, although we are, I mean it looks beautiful, there's quite a lot of background traffic noise. So we can't be that far away actually from from transport, from big roads. So explain to me you say this this particular site, Ashenbank Woods which is a site of Special Scientific Interest, so it's not just any old woods, this is a really special place, is under threat. What is the threat here?   Jack: So the threat here is partially there will be some loss to the wider SSSI ancient woodland in the area when you're losing sort of kind of, Ashenbank Wood itself is not going to be subject to much loss, although there is a cycle route diversion going through the woods that might impact on some of its special features.  Adam: Oh one second just, we've we've just turned off the path, we're just, oops crawling under some trees. I don't quite know why we've come, we we seem to have chosen the most difficult route. Well, it is beautiful because we've come off the path right into a magic dell.   Jack: There we go.  Adam: Oh, look, there's obviously some, I think, probably some kids have built a sort of camp, tent out of fallen branches. OK, so sorry so I understand that this is under threat from development, the the development plan though is what? What are they trying to do here?  Jack: So so what they're doing is they're building a new crossing further to the east of Dartford Crossing, but that's going to involve connecting...  Adam: A river crossing, a tunnel?  Jack: Yes a river crossing.   Adam: But it's a tunnel.   Jack: Yeah, it's a tunnel.  Adam: Why would that? That's that's great, surely?  Jack: Well, the tunnel goes under the Thames. But in order to connect the A2/M2 to the to the sort of tunnel portal, they're going to be going through a lot of ancient woodlands as a result. So just down the way Clay Lane Wood is one that's going to be heavily impacted by by the proposals, you know several hectares of ancient woodland loss there, but in terms of our wood itself, you're you're gonna have impacts on some of the veteran trees from some of the works that are required in here. But you're also sort of increasing the traffic around the area on A2/M2. And as you can hear, there's already quite loud background noise from the traffic. If that becomes louder, it further reduces the suitability of this habitat for a lot of species.  Adam: Right. So what are your, what are you doing?  Jack: Well we're campaigning against it for one thing. So we've been campaigning against it since 2016, trying to bring those bring those sort of impacts down as far as possible. At this point in time, I would probably say that it's unfeasible, that it could go ahead without causing loss or damage to ancient woodland and veteran trees, and that's something that we have to oppose as an organisation. So we're working with other environmental NGOs, conservation orgs like RSPB, Buglife, Wildlife Trust, CPRE to to oppose this scheme.  Adam: So, and if people want to keep an eye on the sort of campaigns you're running, and the sort of live issues around the country, where can they get that information?  Jack: They can go along to woodlandtrust.org.uk/campaigns and they'll be able to find out about what we're doing in terms of campaigning for protection of ancient woods and veteran trees. We've got a really great campaign at the moment, all about protecting ancient and veteran trees and we're stood in in front of one of these at the moment, we call them Living Legends.   Adam: Right OK, what a lovely link, because I I was gonna say you've brought me to a stand. It looks like a sculpture this, so what, so let me just briefly describe this. I mean, it's a hollowed out tree. There's, it almost looks like there's 3 or 4 bits of different trees supporting each other, and you can go hide in the middle. I mean, there's, I'd, I couldn't spread my arms in the middle, but I mean almost, you know, there's probably, I don't know, 4 or 5 foot wide in the middle. It's most extraordinary. What is this? What's going on here?  Jack: So I would probably say this is an ancient ash tree. As trees sort of grow older, they they have to sort of kind of allow their heartwood to to rot away because that's what keeps them sort of stable and secure and in doing so that creates really important habitat for wildlife. And so this is what has happened to this ash tree effectively, its heartwood has sort of rotted away, it's still got this kind of all important surrounding ripewood to be able to support the rest of the tree.  Adam: That's extraordinary. So the the, the, the wood at the centre of the tree, the heartwood has gone?  Jack: Yes, yeah, yeah, cause it it's not it's not really useful for for trees at that sort of point. It's it's no longer the part of the wood that's carrying the sort of the water and nutrients up the tree. That's what the sort of outer ripewood does. So the heartwood decays away as they as they grow older.  Adam: And that's just ash trees is it?  Jack: No, that's that's pretty much all. Yeah.  Adam: How ignorant am I? OK, fine. OK. I didn't realise that that happens to all trees. And it looks like that would cause an instability problem, but this looks actually fairly fairly stable, it's fine.  Jack: It it's it's actually it's actually the other way they do it because it allows them to remain as stable as possible. And I I mean this one it doesn't, it doesn't look in the best sort of structural condition does it, but they need to do that for their sort of physiological condition because if they have if they're trying to support too much sort of heartwood then it affects the trees energy balances. And I mean that there's actual sort of scientific things here between the kinetic and the potential energy in a tree and why why they do this but all old trees do it and in turn it creates this amazing habitat, so you can see all these little holes in the in the sort of kind of inside wood and the decaying wood as well, where insects have sort of burrowed into it, where birds would be, woodpeckers, you know would be would be accessing that as well.   Adam: Yeah. Amazing   Jack: Amazing structures, aren't they?  Adam: And so I'm going to meet now, one of the people responsible for actually managing woods such as Ashenbank, and he's waiting for me a bit further into the woods.  Clive: OK, I'm Clive, Clive Steward, I'm one of the estate managers for the Woodland Trust working in the South East.  Adam: So what is important about this site? What makes this wood special?  Clive: What makes this site special is that it's ancient woodland or partly ancient woodland, but it's also managed as a wood pasture or has been managed as a wood pasture in the past, and because of that habitat it has lots and lots of old trees and old trees is very important in terms of what they support in terms of dead and decaying habitats.  Adam: Right, so well we're standing by this extraordinary ash tree, I mean, it's extraordinary that there's an ash tree at all, given ash dieback, but it's extraordinary for all sorts of other reasons. But is ash a big part of this woodland?  Clive: In terms of its name, Ashenbank, you you think it should be but but it's it is a component of the site but it's not, the majority species is not ash.   Adam: What is this site then?  Clive: So mostly sycamore and we're in the northern part of Ashenbank where we've got a lot of sycamore and we've got some really big old sweet chestnuts, but there are lovely old oak trees and hornbeam trees.  Adam: Right. And so when we talk about ancient woodland, it's always worth, I suppose, explaining a bit about what we mean because clearly will go, well, that's old. But old for trees can be a whole different sort of thing. So how, what, what, what do you mean when you're talking about ancient woodlands?  Clive: Well, when we say ancient woodland ancient woodland is defined as areas which have been permanently wooded since 1600AD. That's the sort of the the the date.  Adam: Oh right, I didn't realise it was that precise.  Clive: Well, it well, yes, it's roughly when big old estates used to produce maps, so they discovered paper and started drawing maps of what they owned but prior so before this this, the assumption is that if it's wooded then it would have been wooded ever since the Ice Age retreated but managed by mankind for for thousands of years.  Adam: So we're, we're assuming actually that ancient woodland is all it's probably been here since the Ice Age?  Clive: Yes. Yeah.  Adam: So that's why I mean that's it's worth I think pausing on that because it's why when we're talking about ‘oh, we'll have to destroy a bit of woodland for a tree, for a road' sorry, we're talking about taking away a bit of the landscape, which has been there since the Ice Age probably. So that's quite a big deal to have done that.  Clive: Yeah, yeah. It is. It is. Yeah. The the other part of Ashenbank, which is the bit we're in is a more recently wooded area, probably about 200 years old. I have a a map here which is not good for a podcast, but I can show you a map.  Adam: Go on go on, we can describe this. Hold on. I'll hold the microphone and you can describe what we're seeing. So go on, yes.  Clive: So we have a a map here of Ashenbank Wood dating from 1797, which shows the woodland it used to be. I have another map showing the wood as it is today. So here's a map from a couple of years ago, but we're we're actually up here, which in the 1797 map shows fields. And now, now, now it's woods. So so basically, what's happened this Ashenbank used to be owned by Cobham Hall, which is a big estate to the east of Halfpence Lane, so this used to be partly of Cobham Hall Estate and in 1790, as many of these big old estates houses used to do, they used used they they employed a landscape architect to make their their grounds nicer as it were. So it wasn't Capability Brown, but it was a chap called Humphrey Repton who worked on this site from 1790 to about 1880, when he died 1818 when he died. And he landscaped the estate and the view from the house over to here looking west to what is now Ashenbank Wood was obviously important to him. So they actually planted a lot of these big old chestnuts which we walked past, which date from 200 years ago.  Adam: Which is very nice and we often hear about cutting trees down and looking at old maps going ‘oh, we've lost all that wood', here's an example of the reverse to actually that's a good nature story.  Clive: Yeah, yeah, definitely it is. Yes. As you get older, as they get older, these trees there are microhabitats which develop rot pockets, branches fall off, they they rot, big holes develop and that that's these microhabitats which are home to what's called saproxylic species.   Adam: OK, that's a new word, saproxylic?  Clive: Saproxylic. So saproxylics are are basically insects and beetles and flies which only exist in dead and decaying wood. So if these big old trees weren't around, they've got nowhere to live.  Adam: Right, which is why it's useful to have deadwood on the ground. It's not so, it looks untidy, but actually that's often the richest place.  Clive: Indeed. Yeah, yes, but often, but often these insects and beetles are actually in the living tree, not in the in the horizontal, dead and dying stuff. And it's the living trees, which are are why this habitat is so important.  Adam: But I thought you said you said they're living in the living trees, but but saproxylic means they're living in the dead trees?  Clive: But within these big old trees, there are these rot holes and pockets and little microhabitats within the tree...  Adam: Yes, which are dead and that's where they live?   Clive: Where they live yeah that's right.  Adam: Right OK. Yeah, very interesting. OK, very interesting. Now, there's also, I knew I was told, but I'm completely confused by, an idea that I'm told that goes on here of strapping deadwood to live trees. Did I did I misunderstand that?  Clive: No, no, you you didn't misunderstand it. No.   Adam: OK and you're going to show me where this is ?  Clive: Yep. Shall we shall we go, we'll we'll walk there, have a look.  Adam: Alright. Brilliant. So you've taken me to this tree, a very substantial tree, but next to it, this is the a bit of, what, you better explain, because this is really odd and I don't really understand what I'm looking at.  Clive: Right. Well, going back to 1999 when High Speed One was being built, they took out three hectares of Ashenbank Wood along with lots of other woodland in the area. And fortunately, somebody had the idea of of suggesting that we could save some of those big trees they felled and reerecting them against living trees to help them degrade and and become part of the habitat.  Adam: So I mean to describe this, we've got a very big tree. What sort of tree is this?  Clive: So you've got a big, big oak tree.  Adam: That's a big oak, and next to it is 6, 12, I don't know, 30 foot, 40 foot high dead tree, bit of bark. But it's it's not like a small, it's a 40 foot bit of bark which you have propped onto the living tree. Why is it better to have done that than just to leave it on the ground?  Clive: Well, it's about these microhabitats. So I mean, it's not just propped up it's actually strapped to it, so it's actually quite secure.  Adam: It is secure, that's y your health and safety hat on.  Clive: We had to make sure it was strapped up, but vertical dead or decaying wood is equally as important as horizontal, dead and decaying wood.  Adam: OK. Is it different? What, does it do different things?  Clive: The wood doesn't but it attracts different insects and species so that that that's why so. But in most in most woodlands you'll see deadwood as being felled trees which are lying or windblown. You don't often see dead vertical trees.  Adam: I've never seen that.  Clive: Well, they're often well, they're often felled and taken out for firewood or something but they are important as as a sort of microhabitat for these saproxylics. That that's purely why.  Adam: So the saproxylics which are insects which live on deadwood prefer, some prefer the high rise living of the vertical tree rather than the low level bungalow type living. But what what sort of, do you do, don't worry if you don't know, but do you know which insects prefer living vertically?   Clive: I I don't know that.  Adam: You don't. Somebody will, somebody will.  Clive: Yeah somebody will. But if you look at that tree, you'll see that it's a there's a there's a U-shaped crook 2/3 way up and in that there's there's a there's a hole which has probably got water in it. So water gathers from rain and that's that that little microhabitat will be, something will live in it. And if that was horizontal, it wouldn't be there.  Adam: Right, yes, yes. Well that I think this must be, I mean, we've been doing this for a few years. I've never seen that. So that is amazing. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. So I know that the history of this site goes back quite a long way, not just the natural history, but the human history as well, and am I right in saying there's quite quite a lot of sort of Bronze Age heritage here?  Clive: Well, we've got a Scheduled Ancient Monument which has been dated to between 2000 and 1500 BC, which is a big burial mount and it is scheduled and it's, you know, English Heritage monitor it and we have to make sure it's free of trees and it's there to see.  Adam: Right. Wow. And it's interesting you talk about it's there to see because we came and parked in the Woodland Trust car park. Free parking, as is normal in Woodland Trust places, first time though a full car park. We are here midweek during the day. I was surprised to see it's full so talking about visitors, this is clearly a, I mean have I just come at a weird time, have they all come to see the Woodland Trust podcast being made, it's right, it's a popular site. That always feels like contention to me because I know you want to encourage people to come, on the other hand, coming in a sort of, destroys a bit of what we see. How much of a problem are the level of visitors?  Clive: Well, we basically have a path network through Ashenbank Wood which we maintain, we mow, we make sure it's open and safe. So most people walk on those those paths which steers people around the the wood, as it were, so and we we don't stop people from walking off the path but most people don't cause it's, you know, nettles or brambles or whatever. It's difficult to do.  Adam: Right, yes. And keeping dogs on the lead and everything. You've been with the Trust for a long time, haven't you, really. What sort of change have you seen in the the the debate around the natural world in your time here?  Clive: That's a big question.  Adam: Have you, I mean, sort of, it assumes you have seen a change, you might not have seen a change. I mean I the reason I ask it is because it feels to me it's gone up the political agenda, that it's not just, you know, people dismissively talking about crazy tree huggers and let them onto their own thing. It's become more mainstream. Do you think that that's it's become more optimistic, do you think it's become more pessimistic, do you think, you you know, it's become more informed, I suppose?  Clive: Well, I think there's a growing recognition that ancient woodland is a special habitat, but it hasn't quite gone far enough to get total protection. But I think there's a growing realisation that ancient woodland is special and we need to look after it. And I think the politicians probably do understand it, but maybe can't quite make that move to legislate against total protection.  Adam: Yeah. And I think that's part of the Living Legend campaign that the Woodland Trust is organising, isn't it?  Clive: Definitely is. Yeah. Yeah, very much so.  Adam: Well, there were two websites we talked about today. So if you want to get involved in a local campaign, search for ‘Woodland Trust campaigns' and you can find out more about the attempts to get better legal protection for ancient and veteran trees by searching for the Living Legends campaign and of course I hope you get a chance to visit Ashenbank Woods yourself. So until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Did you know oak supports over 2,300 species of wildlife? Discover this and more fascinating facts in our episode dedicated to the nation's favourite tree. We join Trust experts, Jules and Kate, at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham, to find some fascinating growths on oak trees, known as galls, and learn why hunks of deadwood are so important.  We then visit the star of the show and 'Lincolnshire's best kept secret' - the astonishing 1,000-year-old Bowthorpe Oak. It's one of 12 amazing oaks in the running for 2024 Tree of the Year. Which one will you vote for? Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, in this podcast, we're looking at the Woodland Trust's Tree of the Year competition, which is all about oaks and is on a quest to find the nation's favourite one. And there are lots to choose from. There is the Elephant Oak in the New Forest, the Queen Elizabeth Oak in West Sussex, the Darwin Oak in Shropshire, the Capon Oak on the Scottish Borders and plenty of others to choose from across Wales, Somerset, County Fermanagh, Cheshire and well, lots of other places as well. And you can vote for your favourite oak by going to the shortlist of them at the voting site woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote, so that is woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote and we'll repeat that again at the end of this podcast.   Well, today I'm going to see one of the oaks in contention for the Tree of the Year, the Bowthorpe Oak in Bourne, in Lincolnshire, a tree which has a hollow interior and had previously, that interior had been fitted with seats and had been used as a dining room for 20 people in the past, 20 people! It must have been an enormous oak and that's not a practice I think that's recommended these days. Well, certainly not. But nonetheless it's a great oak which has played a great big part in the local landscape and is much loved, not just in the UK but attracts plenty of visitors from abroad as well. Now, oaks have an amazingly important part in our culture and in days gone by were, I think, central in Druid folklore, for instance, in fact one amazing fact I have learnt making this podcast is that the name Druid comes from druer, the Celtic for oak for the word oak and wid means to know, so Druid means oak-knower, so there's a good fact for you. Anyway, enough of me. I'm off to meet some people who know all about oaks and unusually I am not starting by a tree. So, unusually, we're starting in a car and I'm joined by two women from the Woodland Trust. So first of all, introduce yourselves.  Kate: I'm Kate Lewthwaite. I am citizen science manager at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Wonderful. And our driver for the day is...  Jules: Hi, I'm Jules Acton. I'm a fundraiser with the Woodland Trust.  Adam: So we're going to look at a few oaks today, one of which is actually in the running to be the Tree of the Year, and you can vote on that still and I'll give you details a little later on on how to do that. But first of all, you were telling me that you have a little present for me. I always like to start the day with a little present.  Jules: It's always good to start the day with a little present, I think and here's a little one for you.   Adam: Oh, and it's wrapped up in tissue paper. It's an early Christmas present. How very good. So what is that? OK so do you want to describe it?   Jules: OK so it's a little, it looks like a little woody marble really, doesn't it? And it's got a little tiny hole you can see just there and some extra other little tiny holes. That is an oak marble gall.  Adam: An oak marble...ghoul?  Jules: Gall.  Adam: And how do you spell that?  Jules: G A double L.  Adam: G A double L and what what is it?  Jules: So this is this is incredibly special, so this has in many ways changed human culture, this little tiny thing. Certainly amplified human culture. So this is a gall, which is made by, and it's made by a little tiny wasp. And the wasp lays a an egg in the in the bud of the tree of the oak tree. And it makes the oak change and it sort of changes chemically. It's really strange. And it makes the the oak form this little marble shaped thing on the end of a twig. And that becomes home for the gall wasps' larvae, and so that the little larva grows up inside it and it has this its own special home, but it's also full of lovely food. So that's interesting itself and that it's it's it's it's got this sort of little little home but it what's particularly interesting human, from the human perspective is that these kind of galls were used to make ink for about 1,000 years and the the kind of ink that they made, it was used, I think, until the middle of the 20th century. So kind of until quite recently. So Shakespeare's plays were written on oak gall ink, Newton's theories, the American Declaration of Independence, huge amounts of historic documents.  Adam: So just trying to understand that, Shakespeare's plays were written on ink created by this thing?  Jules: By a gall like, yeah, this kind of thing by by a gall. Yeah. But you can you can still now you can make gall gall ink from these little little things here. So it in many ways it it amplified, this little tiny thing we've got here, amplified the whole course of human history, culture, etcetera in our part of the world.  Adam: Quite an extraordinary place to start our journey today. Wonderful. So, OK, so we're, yes, we'll put that away nice and safe and we'll start our journey. Kate, do you just want to start by telling me what we're going to do when we get out of the car?  Kate: We're going to have a walk round Londonthorpe Wood, which is one of the Woodland Trust sites, one of our thousand woods that we own and we're going to see an oak tree that Jules has found for us to go and talk about.  Adam: Fantastic. All right, well, let's go.  Jules: Well, well so we've just seen some amazing galls on what looks like quite a young tree, it's probably about 30-years-old, would you say, Kate, this one?   Kate: Maybe, yes.  Jules: And, yeah, they're they're bright red and they're on the underside of the oak leaves and they look a bit like cherries and   Adam: I was going to say, the one you showed me was all grey, you gave me an old rubbish one, didn't you? This is what they look like when they're on the tree. It's red, it does look like a cherry.  Jules: Yeah, this is a particularly stunning one, isn't it? And they they are literally called cherry galls. And they again  Adam: They're called cherry balls?  Jules: Cherry galls.   Adam: Galls, cherry galls.  Jules: And they're about the same size as the marble gall that we saw earlier. And I believe they are also caused by a gall wasp. And but what is good about these kind of galls is that they're relatively easy to spot. So once you get your eye in, you start seeing them everywhere, so it's a really lovely thing to start doing, you know, with children or just looking yourself when you're out on a on a walk, you know.  Adam: Wow. So that shows that a wasp has formed that?  Jules: Yeah  Adam: And these are non-stinging wasps, aren't they?  Jules: These are non-stinging wasps. They're teeny, teeny, tiny wasps. They don't look like your your black, you know the big black and and and yellow stripey things that come at your ice cream, not that there's anything wrong with those wasps, they're lovely too.  Adam: Inside that gall is baby wasps? Is that?  Jules: There will be a little larvae inside there.  Adam: And that's what they're using as as food, or is it?  Jules: Yes, that's their home but it's also their food source. And I'm not at some point in the year the the the little tiny wasp, once it's developed, will will kind of drill its way out and then be set free to the to the wider world. But I think we'll find some other kinds of galls, actually. So it might be worth us moving on a little bit and just see if we can.  Adam: OK. Moving on, yeah, that's politely telling me to be quiet and start walking.  Jules: Oh sorry *laughs*  Adam: Sorry, there's a, oh it's a tractor going up and down the field next to us. So that's what the noise is in the background. But the fact that we we sort of just held a branch here and and Kate was already, you know, lots of wildlife, jumped onto her jumper, does raise the issue about how many, how much wildlife an oak supports. And I was hear some fantastic number. Just tell me a little bit about that.  Jules: We know that the oak supports more than 2,300 species and that they could be species that that feed off the oak, that live inside it, that live on, on, on or or around it, that you know they perch in it. So species using the the oak tree in all different ways and they are, they they they're birds and mammals, they're lichen, fungi, invertebrates. All sorts of different kinds of species, but what's important, I think, is that they're only the species we've countered, and I think there are a huge number more that we just haven't got around to counting would, would you agree, Kate? You probably know more about this than me.  Kate: Yes, definitely. And some of those species can live on other types of tree, and some are only found on oak trees, so they're particularly important. And of course, we haven't started talking about the value of deadwood and all those wonderful rare beetles whose larvae live in the wood. So there's lots to be said about that as well.  Adam: I'll tell you what, let's just walk all further away from this tractor, which sounds closer than it is, and you can tell me about the importance of the deadwood.  Jules: Well we might see some spectacular deadwood.  Adam: Oh well, we might see some, OK. OK, so we have stopped by some deadwood and you're going to explain why, is that right? Right. OK. Kate is going to explain. Well, why have we stopped here, Kate?  Kate: Because deadwood is absolutely fantastic and we have a history of a nation of being a little bit too tidy and taking it away and using it for firewood and other things, when actually it's an amazing habitat in its own right. I'm just looking at the variety of rot holes, of larval galleries where the insect larvae have fed, and then the adults emerged. And it is like a whole habitat in its own right. And actually deadwood is really rare. Much of the woodland in the UK is not felt to be in good ecological condition and one of the reasons for that is a lack of deadwood. So it's incredibly important habitat and we don't have enough of it.  Jules: One of the things I didn't understand until recently and Kate, you might know more about this than me, but there's there's different kinds of deadwood. So if you have, it's important to have deadwood in different formats, so standing deadwood so when the old tree is still standing upright, and and deadwood that's lying down on the ground.  Adam: Right. What what why, so it matters if it's vertical or horizontal?  Jules: It it it matters that you have both kinds.  Adam: And why?  Jules: Because, I feel like I'm at the edge of my knowledge, so it's because about it's about different habitats, isn't it Kate, is that right?  Kate: Yeah, I think so. And the the wood will rot at a different rate. It's quite ironic because the one we're standing at now is actually at a 45° angle. So it's neither vertical nor nor horizontal. And of course, oak trees are absolutely full of of tannins, which I think are the same compound you find in the oak galls that enable the writing. But they also mean, you know this huge, great piece of deadwood here could be around for hundreds of years because it won't, it will rot very, very slowly.  Jules: And and one of the great things is when you have deadwood right next to living wood as well, because that creates all these different conditions which will suit different kinds of invertebrates and fungi as well, so that that's really important to have this collection of of different kinds of wood in in you know in a similar area.   Adam: Excellent. OK, we've, we've stopped. We've stopped Kate, and you've got very excited.  Kate: It happens quite easily when I'm out in nature. And there's a whole pile of knopper galls on the floor here, and they're black. You know, they've dropped off the tree. They've done their job. The the wasp has flown off. But I wondered if we could, I've no idea if this is gonna work, I wondered if we could actually try writing with them because they are oozing black.  Adam: Oh my, right, this is so exciting. OK, so this is like this is a modern day Shakespeare. Have you got? OK. The line is to be or not to be. I see. Hold on a second. So you've picked it up, right, I I think you might do something to it.   Kate: Well, I might have to. Shall we see, shall we see if it just?  Adam: Right, but you're not, you're just gonna?  Jules: Ohh there we go.  Kate: There is a brown ooze and it's I think it's not just from the path.  Adam: I was going to say, it's not just mud.  Kate: It's not. It's this kind of coffee colour.  Adam: Wow, OK. And you are writing to be or not to not be.  Kate: I am writing to be or not to be, I I don't know if I break it open a bit more if you might get. Ohh. This is gonna stain my nails, isn't it?  Adam: OK. Ohh dear, don't worry I'll I'll pay for the the visit to to the nail parlour.  Kate: *laughs* I shouldn't worry. Yes, we are actually getting some.  Adam: To be or not to be. Well, I'm sure that would have actually been mixed with water or something.  Kate: Most likely  Adam: Or some alcohol and put into a quill, but that does what hold on, let me just rub it, see. Well, I can confirm that is not just what we have now created ink. Proper exciting.  Kate: Absolutely.  Adam: Thank you very much. Well, we're heading away from our ink gall-bearing oaks to see the main attraction of the day, which is a short drive from here. It is the Bowthorpe Oak, one of the contenders for Tree of the Year. It is rooted in a grass paddock behind the 17th century farmhouse nearby. In 2002, the Tree Council, in celebration of the Golden Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, designated the Bowthorpe Oak one of 50 great British trees. One of the 50 greatest British trees in recognition of its place in our national heritage. And I'm meeting the current custodian of the oak who runs the farm in which it lives.  George: My name is George Blanchard and I am one of the family members here that farm at Bowthorpe Park Farm.  Adam: Right. And you have, we're standing by this famous tree. People come here to see this tree?  George: They do, yeah, we get them from all over the world. A lot of lot of UK, obviously, Europe and America, we get a lot of interest from America.  Adam: Well, tell me a bit about this tree.  George: So this tree, the Bowthorpe Oak, is the UK's largest girthed oak tree. It's absolutely stunning as you can, as you can see, fully in leaf at the moment it looks amazing and yeah, that's it's claim to fame.  Adam: Right it's wide the widest I think it was the second widest tree in the UK. Is that right?  George: We know it's the largest largest oak tree in in terms of it's it's the most complete, you know. So I think there could be wider ones, but not quite as complete.  Adam: Not quite as good as your tree!  George: Yeah, exactly. This is yeah *laughs*  Adam: No, I agree. And and is is this a family farm? Is this?  George: It is yeah.  Adam: Right so you've grown up, you've you played under the boughs of this tree.  George: I have. Yeah, yeah and and inside it as well. Remember it is hollow so.  Adam: Right. Yeah. So tell me a bit about the sort of the folklore and the stories around the tree.  George: Yeah so oak trees naturally start to hollow at around 500 years old, but this one was hollowed even further, back in the 1700s by a chap called George Pauncefort and  Adam: It was, it was, it wasn't naturally hollow, he hollowed it out?  George: They they do, they do naturally hollow, but he hollowed it even further. And you can tell this when you're looking inside it, because the the sides are quite flat. It's very unnatural. You can see so the hollowing has been done by by tools. And so he also put benches around the inside of it and a and a doorway on on the west side and even even sort of paved the flooring but and and put a pigeon loft in the crown, which I think, I think back in the day in the 1700s, if you had a pigeon loft in your tree, you were somebody *laughs*.  Adam: Ohh really that's like Lamborghini time, right? OK, forget your Lamborghinis, I've got a pigeon loft in my tree.   George: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And he would have parties in there as as you would, wouldn't you?  Adam: Well, yeah, of course. I mean, you've gone to all that trouble. Was he a member of the family? Was this being passed down?   George: No, no, there's no there's no relation, no relation. We've we've only been farming here since the sort of late 40s.  Adam: Right. OK, amazing. Amazing stuff. And I mean, and it looks in fairly, I mean as you say, it's in good leaf, it's in also just it looks to the untutored eye in good nick as well, generally healthy.  George: It is yeah. Really good really good condition currently. We lost a a limb off the back and that was that was quite concerning because it's it's quite dramatic when they shed a shed a limb, but it is what they they naturally do. We have an inspection done on the tree annually, but at the time of losing the limb, we were, we were quite concerned. So we upped the type of inspection we had done. And they were quite, quite invasive, I say invasive it was, you know, using really small drills, to see if there's any adverse rotting in any places. But no, they were really happy with the condition of the tree and and how healthy it is so other than any sort of man-made issue, I don't see why it shouldn't carry on growing as it is.  Adam: And it's amazing because, I mean, you know, it's taken us quite a while to get here and people come here all this way just to see this tree.  George: They do, yes, yes, seek it out, we call it Lincolnshire's best kept secret.  Adam: Right. Amazing. From all over the world?  George: They do yeah yeah. From all over the world. Like I say, a lot of a lot of Europe people come from Europe and a lot of people come from America. We find that the two two types of people from America, those that really appreciate it and those that just can't get their head around it because it's nowhere near as big as their redwoods *laughs*  Adam: Right? Call this big. Call this big, you should see...  George: Exactly. Yeah, call this big, we've got bigger.  Adam: Yeah OK. Brilliant well thank you very much, I will take a tour round it.  George: Thank you.  Adam: So one of the other, now I have to say, first of all, let me have a look at the front front, we've taken a book with us because Jules has published a book called Oaklore and you've brought it out here because there is a poem about this oak in your book.  Jules: There is and it was written well over 100 years ago by a poet called John Clare and but the interesting thing is when he wrote this poem this would have already been an ancient tree, so it's it's quite an interesting record that he was standing in awe, looking at this tree, just like we are now really.  Adam: Right, right. So when did he write this?  Jules: I don't have the exact date in front of me, but I know it's over well over 100 years ago.  Adam: OK, well over 100 years and you're going to put on your best poetry reading voice.  Jules: *laughs* I'll have a go.  Adam: Go on, give us, I always love, I mean, we did this in the Sherwood Forest podcast where we took a book about Sherwood Forest and a book about a tree to the tree it's about. So we're now going to read a poem about the tree we're standing by. So this poem by John Clare.  Jules: And it's called Burthorp Oak. So here we go. Burthorp Oak.   Old noted oak! I saw thee in a mood  Of vague indifference; and yet with me  Thy memory, like thy fate, hath lingering stood  For years, thou hermit, in the lonely sea  Of grass that waves around thee! Solitude  Paints not a lonelier picture to the view,  Burthorp! than thy one melancholy tree  Age-rent, and shattered to a stump. Yet new  Leaves come upon each rift and broken limb  With every spring; and Poesy's visions swim  Around it, of old days and chivalry;  And desolate fancies bid the eyes grow dim  With feelings, that earth's grandeur should decay,  And all its olden memories pass away.  Adam: Brilliant. That's that's a lovely poem to read by by the tree.  Jules: I think it's quite interesting that he says age rent and shattered to a stump so it it sort of suggests that the tree is in a worse condition than now, wouldn't you say so Kate? And it looks like it might be happier now than when Clare saw it.  Kate: I was just looking at it and I mean it looks like some of those shoots have put on a good foot of growth this year. So that's the amazing thing about ancient oaks is they they so-called retrench. So all the limbs, the limbs drop off, they become shorter and and and wider and then they might all just start to sort of grow again and it sort of goes through these amazing cycles. Certainly there's a lot more vegetation on it than when I last saw it 15 years ago. It looks fabulous.  Adam: And also a lot of oaks grow very tall. This isn't so tall it it is wider, isn't it? It's a squatter tree. Is that because it's actually not had to compete, because it's actually in a field by itself isn't it? It's not competing for light with lots of other trees.  Kate: Yes, maybe. And also trees like this do, the really ancient trees they do tend to become short and squat and it's part, and hollow, and that's part of their survival strategy is that they'll shed some of these top branches and they'll, they'll shorten and and widen.  Adam: Right. I mean, oaks are really important, aren't they in the UK especially, they're part of the national identity, really, aren't they? And and a lot of that's got to do with folklore, which I know, Jules, you've written about as well.  Jules: Yeah, I mean the the oak has been part of our culture well, as far as as, as as far as we know as far as written records go back and even we we believe that the the Druids themselves were very also very interested in oak trees and they worshipped in oak groves and they particularly worshipped mistletoe, the rare mistletoe that came off off oaks. Of course, we don't have written records on the the Druids, so we don't, we know very little about them, but that's certainly what we believe. And then it's been threaded throughout our our history and our culture that the oaks right up to the present day, you know people are still writing about it and painting painting oak trees and you've got wonderful ambassadors like Luke Adam Hawker who is very inspired by oak trees and goes out drawing them.  Adam: Why do you, I mean I don't suppose there's an answer, but do you have a take on why we've landed on the oak as such a a central part of our mythology and identity?  Jules: Well, I I think I think all of our native trees will play a role in that in our folklore and our mythology and and our culture, I think the oak is is is a particularly impressive tree isn't it, especially when you're standing next to a tree like this that that is so majestic and and you know the words like majestic, kingly, queenly, grand, they they just sort of pop into your head. There is just something incredibly awe-inspiring about the oak tree. And then, as we've we've seen before it, it just has such a huge impact on our ecology as well. So I think I think it's just something it it does a lot of heavy lifting culturally and also naturally the oak tree.  Adam: And almost every pub is called the Royal Oak.  Jules: Yes, yes, I think there's at the last count there's well over 400 pubs called the Royal Oak.  Adam: And you know that personally by visiting them?   Jules: Well, I've yes, I've I've tried to count them all. I've still got some way to go *both laugh*  Adam: Yeah. OK, OK, alright. Well, it's it's a good project to be having.  Jules: So there's an interesting story behind the that name the Royal Oak. And the reason the pubs are called that relates back to a very special oak tree, the Boscobel Oak. Now we have to go back in history a few hundred years. And it takes us back to the Battle of Worcester and the son of Charles I was in in battle with the with, with, with the parliamentarians, and he took a drubbing at the Battle of Worcester, and he needed to escape. And he reached this place called Boscobel House, and he was going to hide out in, in that house and try and escape the the soldiers, the the enemy. But it was very insecure and one of his advisers suggested he, instead of hiding in the house, he hid in the oak tree. So they spent the whole night in the oak tree, which subsequently called called the Boscobel Oak, and this and and and they escaped capture and the king spent the whole night with this chap called William Careless as he as he was called   Adam: William Careless?  Jules: William Careless who turned out not to be careless at all because he actually saved the king. And apparently the king sort of curled up with his head on Careless' knee and and he, they they got away. They got away with it and because of that you know that then obviously led into a whole series of events which ultimately led to the restoration of the monarchy and said King became Charles II and and because of that there was an enormous celebration of oak trees. So they they they were raised in status even further. So we've got all the Royal Oak pubs which are effectively commemorating that occasion. But there's also a great day of celebration was declared. It was the 29 May. I think that was the King's birthday, and it was 29 May. And it became oak apple day. And that was when we would all when people across the land would would gather and and celebrate the restoration of the monarchy. And one of the things they used to do was they people would bring branches with oak apples, which is another of those amazing galls. And the more oak apples you had on your branches, the better the better you were, you know, the, the, the cooler you were at the party. And if you didn't bring oak branches with you, apparently people would be mean to you and they'd whip you with nettles.   Adam: Blimey, this story took a turn!  Jules: Yeah, these parties got these these parties got quite out of hand. I actually think we should bring these days back. Not, no nettles. But I think actually wouldn't it be great if we spent every 29 May celebrating our amazing oak trees and and and also the wider nature around us.  Adam: Yeah, we've missed it this year, but I'm putting a date in for us to meet at a Royal Oak somewhere between us on 29 May.  Jules: Yeah, let's do it. Let's party. Yeah. And maybe drink a glass of oak flavoured wine or whisky.  Adam: OK, never had that, but I'm I'm up for it. I'm up for it. Kate, this is also important because this is in the running for Tree of the Year.  Kate: Absolutely. So the Woodland Trust hosts the UK Tree of the Year competition, and this year we've focused on oak trees.   Adam: So so they're all oaks.  Kate: All of them are oak trees this year, so we've got 12 candidates from across the UK and the wonderful Bowthorpe Oak here is one of them. It's my local tree so I'm a little bit biased, but these trees all tell amazing stories. We've got one that's shaped like an elephant in the New Forest. We've got one that has survived being in the middle of pine plantation in the Highlands of Scotland and we've got one that's sadly under threat from a bypass in Shrewsbury. So we've got some amazing stories from these trees and the public can vote. So voting closes on the 21 October 2024 and you can go to the Woodland Trust website so it's woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote.  Adam: There were some cow noises just as you said that in the background! Just to prove that we're in a farm *all laugh*.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Join us for a jam-packed visit to Frodsham Woods, Cheshire, where 80 volunteers were planting thousands of trees to help transform a former golf course into a fantastic new space for wildlife and people. We visit the neighbouring ancient woodland and admire hilltop views with site manager Neil and chat to Tim, supervisor of this army of tree planters, about how the new wood will develop. We also meet Esther, lead designer of the project, hear from comms guru Paul about the Trust's #plantmoretrees climate campaign, and speak to the volunteers about what the day means to them. Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, today's podcast is a bit of an unusual one because I'm off to an abandoned golf course in Cheshire, overlooking Liverpool. Not far away, in fact. And the vision is to create this once golf course into a thriving mosaic of habitats, including lush broadleaved woodland, grassland meadows and wooded glades dotted with wildflowers. Throughout the site, they're creating a network of grassy paths so people can walk through them and get far-reaching views of the Welsh borders, the western Pennines and the Bowland Fells, along with, of course, Liverpool and the Mersey Estuary. And very excitingly, the man actually who's running all the tree planting there is also in a band, and it's his music and his band's music you can hear in the background. More about that a little later. It's called Frodsham Woods, and it's near the Frodsham train station. Guess where? In Frodsham. Well, today we are starting, I'm starting sitting down with Neil Oxley, who's the site manager here. Hi Neil. Neil: Good morning, Adam. Adam: Good morning. So, just explain where we are because we are, well, I'm not gonna take away your thunder. Explain. It's an unusual location. Neil: So, we're sat on a bench overlooking the River Mersey and Liverpool. We're on the old golf course that was closed about three years ago. Adam: Yeah, well that's what I think is unusual – sitting on a golf course. I gotta take, it doesn't look like a golf course. They, the greenkeeper would have had a heart attack seeing the state of this place. But what's amazing is, well, I'm looking over a forest of planted trees. I mean, just within 10 yards, probably a couple of hundred of them, just been planted. So, this has got to be unusual. Take buying a golf course, turning it into a forest? Neil: It is, yeah. I think it's probably the first golf course that the Woodland Trust has taken on and it's just a great opportunity, though, that when it became available, it's adjoining some of our existing woodlands, including ancient woodland. And it's given us an opportunity to plant lots of trees and work with local people and engage the community in doing something good for the climate. Adam: And we're sitting down, looking over what might be, I don't know. Is that a bunker? Do you think that's a bunker? Neil: It is, yep. So, there there's probably about 40 bunkers on the golf course and we've kept them all, so some of those old features are still here. Adam: And I saw one, some gorse growing, just naturally growing in the bunker there. Neil: There is. Just in the two or three years since it stopped being maintained. There's gorse, there's silver birch, there's all sorts of trees and plants that are now appearing. Adam: I love the gorse. It's bright. It comes out early. Bright yellow. Real splash of colour in early spring. It's really. Neil: It is, yeah, it's lovely and colourful. Adam: And we're looking over a range of wind turbines. And is that the Mersey ahead? Neil: That is, that's the River Mersey. Adam: Although there's not much river, it looks, it looks like it's out. It's mainly mud. Neil: It's probably low tide at the moment. Yeah, and Liverpool just beyond the other side. Adam: Very nice. So, you're going to be my main guide today. We've got lots of people to meet, I know. Alright. Brilliant. So, explain to me the plan for the day. Neil: So, we're gonna have a walk round and look at some of the tree planting that we've already done here. We've got some groups of corporate volunteers and Woodland Trust staff here today also who are planting trees. So, we'll go and see them later on. But I thought maybe to start off with we could go and visit some of the ancient woodland that borders the site and show you sort of why it's important that we're doing what we're doing today. Adam: Brilliant. I'm of an age where sitting down is quite nice, but that's not going to get, that's not gonna get nothing made, is it? It's alright. We better get up and you lead on. Neil: OK, let's go. This lady, by the way, coming with the pug. She's up here all the time. She's really lovely, friendly, always talks to me and Paul. And we've already said hello to her, but he... Adam: Oh, this dog wants a lot of attention. Neil: He loves that. He loves that, yeah. Adam: We'll let the rest of the team pet the dog. You know, you've paused here for a special reason. Why? Neil: Yeah. So, this area, we're on the edge of the ancient woodland now and the part of the site in front of us is going to be left for what's called natural regeneration to develop. So, that will be where trees can self-seed and set and grow naturally. So, we're not actually planting any trees in this area in front of us. And you can see there's some silver birch trees there that probably self-seeded five or 10 years ago on the edge of the golf course. And they're growing quite well already. Adam: So, and what's the advantage of that? There's a big debate about rewilding and all of that. So, why has that become an important issue? Neil: It is, I mean to different people it can mean slightly different things as well. But basically it's leaving the land to develop and rewild itself, you know, for nature to colonise it. It's a slower process. Adam: So, because if you're planting them yourself, you're planting all the trees at the same time. They're all the same age, so they get wiped out. Everything gets wiped out. Neil: Potentially yes. You could lose a lot more. Adam: Actually, I'm surprised those are natural regeneration because they've, it's very regimented. Those silver birch, they've all come up in exactly the same space, very close together. It looks like there's been some thought behind that. Neil: It does. It does and again nature can do things very similar to how people plant trees. You know, you often can end up with them very densely packed, more densely packed than we're planting them, actually. Adam: Yeah, OK. Well, we're still surrounded by these young, young trees. So, you lead on. Where are we heading off to? Neil: So, we're just walking into, towards the ancient woodland area. So, this this is called Woodhouse Hill and it's mostly oak and some silver birch, some holly growing in here, plus a few other species as well. Adam: And wonderfully of you, you've taken me to the muddiest bit of land there is. Are we going through this? Neil: This, well, we can do. It's unfortunately because of the winter we've had, some of the paths are very wet and muddy around here now. Adam: So, I have my walking boots on. You squelch ahead and I'll squelch behind you. Neil: OK. We'll carry on then. Adam: So, we're heading up, give us a better view of the Mersey, a better view of Liverpool. Neil: That's right. Just around the corner, there's a really good viewpoint where the view will open up and a sunny day like today get quite good views. Adam: And is it used by the locals a lot? I mean, it's relatively new then. I mean, presumably a lot of locals don't know about it. Neil: Well, I mean since, the golf course was closed down during the pandemic, and at the time the owner allowed the public to come and walk on the site. So, suddenly from people being not allowed to use it unless they were playing golf, local people were allowed to come and walk the dogs or just walk themselves around with the family. So, people did get to know the site and start using it, but it also borders some existing woodlands with footpaths, which is where we are now. So, these existing woodlands were already well-used. Adam: Right. And what's the reaction of the locals been to the development here? Neil: Very positive. Yeah. I mean obviously there's always a fear when a piece of land is up for sale that it might go for some sort of development, housing or be sold to a private landowner who fences it off and stops people using it. So, people have been, yeah, really positive, really supportive. The consultation that we did before we started anything was all very much in favour of creating woodland and allowing public access. Adam: I think we're coming up to a viewpoint here where there's a bench. Neil: There is, we should have another sit down. Adam: And it's very steep here. You wouldn't want to be falling off that, but this is a beautiful view. Neil: Yeah. The weather today is just great for the view. Adam: We've been blessed. Look at this. And then you look across a sort of flat valley floor with some wind turbines, which some don't like but I always think they're really majestic. And beyond the wind turbines, the Mersey, where the tide is out. And beyond that, that's Liverpool. And is that Liverpool Cathedral? The grey building in the sort of middle there. Neil: That's the main Anglican cathedral, and then the Catholic cathedral is just off to the right and beyond in the far distance is North Wales, so that low line of hills you can see is just within North Wales. Adam: Oh, that's, those hills over there, beyond the chimneys, that's Wales. Neil: Beyond the chimneys, yeah. Adam: And some other lovely gorse and, whoops don't fall over, I thought it was going to be me that would be falling over, not the site manager. Neil: Mind the rock. Adam: Ice and sea. So, we've come to the sign. ‘The view from Woodhouse Hill holds clues to the distant past, the Mersey Basin and Cheshire's sandstone hills were both shaped by advancing ice sheets during the last Ice Age.' Do you know what? I wanted to say that because I remember from O-level geography, I think a flat-bottomed valley is a glacier-made valley. But I was, I didn't want to appear idiotic, so I didn't say that and I should have had the courage of my convictions. So, this is an ice-formed landscape. Neil: It is. It is. I understand that the ice sheets came down to this part of the north of England back in the Ice Age. And there's some interesting features that are found here called glacial erratics. Adam: Right. Neil: Which is rocks from other parts of the north of England and Scotland that were brought down on the ice sheets. And then when the ice sheets melted, those rocks were left behind. But they're from a different geological area. Adam: Right. Amazing. Neil: So, around here it's sandstone. The erratics are all kind of volcanic rocks. Adam: Brought down from the north, from Scotland. Neil: Lake District and Scotland. That's right. Adam: Beautiful. We were with a few other people. Neil: I think they couldn't be bothered to come through the mud, could they? Yeah. Adam: We seem to have lost them. OK, alright. Well, maybe we'll have to, we've lost our team, our support team. Neil: We'll head back, but yeah, no, this was the view I thought we'd come to. Yeah, because it is a nice view. Adam: Well, I'll tell you what. Let me take a photo of you, for the Woodland Trust social media. Neil: Thought you were gonna say falling over the rock again. No, no, I'll try not to. Adam: Yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, so to explain, you're running me across the field for some... Neil: Walking fast. Adam: Well, for you walking fast. I've got short legs. Why? Neil: Well, we've walked over now to where we've got the people who are helping plant trees today with us. So, we've got a mix of corporate volunteers, Woodland Trust staff and some of our volunteers here to help us and we're gonna go over and meet Tim Kerwin, who's in charge of the tree planting and supervising the tree planting with us today. Adam: Oh right, so these are, this is his army of tree planters. Neil: It is, yes. Tim keeps things in check and makes sure they're doing the right thing. Adam: OK. I mean, let's just look, there's scores of people I've no idea of who Tim is. Neil: Tim? Tim, can we get your attention for a few minutes? Tim: Yes. Adam: Hi, nice to see you, Tim. Tim: I've seen you on telly. Adam: Have you? Adam: Well, Tim, as well as being in charge of everyone planting the trees today is also the sax player in a band. And of course we have to talk about that first and he very kindly gave me one of his original tracks, which is what you can hear right now. A first for the podcast. *song plays* Tim: You know, you know what? We probably do about eight gigs a year, right? But we're trying to find venues where people like jazz. We don't want to, you know, we don't want to do Oasis. That's not what we're about. There's plenty of bands like that. We play music for ourselves, and if people turn up and appreciate it, those are the people we want. I'll play for one person. Adam: You know, I was in a wood a few years ago and, can't remember where it was, and we just came across a violinist, just playing to herself. And it was just like can I record it? And it's like, just playing amongst the trees, and I thought it was really lovely. Tim: You know what? I would, I would do the same. I mean, the places I like to play, like churches are fantastic because of the acoustics. Adam: So, you might play that under this chat and what's the name of the band? Tim: The Kraken. Adam: The Kraken? Tim: Yeah. Adam: OK. Alright, The Kraken *laughs* So, all of which is a bit of a divergence. Tim: I know, sorry *laughs* Adam: So, I'm told you're in charge of this army of tree planters you can see over here. Three men having their sandwich break there. So, you've been working them hard. Tim: We have been working them hard, indeed. Adam: So, just explain to me a little bit about what's going on here. Tim: So, today we can almost see the finishing line for our 30,000 trees. So, this morning we've actually planted just shy of 2,000 trees with the group that we've had, of which there's about 80 people. Adam: That's a lot of trees. People always talk about how long does it take to plant a tree? It's not that big a thing is it? Tim: No, but what we're keen about is it's not about necessarily speed, it's about accuracy. We want quality. So, what we're asking people to do is plant each tree really well. So, today I have to say the standard of planting has been amazing. From the first to the last, I haven't found one that I'm not happy with. Adam: So, explain to me, and we're standing by a tree that's just been planted. It looks like they've scraped a bit of the grass away. So, explain to me, how should you plant a tree and what goes wrong? Tim: OK, so what we've done here, we took the grass off before the guys came, so that's called scriefing. So, the purpose of that is the tree needs water. And this grass also needs water. So, we take that grass away, and the competition's gone away for the tree. So, it won't be forever, because within two years, that grass will have grown around that tree. But those first two years are quite critical. So, if we can get the new roots from, so those trees and little plugs, new roots which are going to come out in the next couple of weeks because the soil's warming up. I mean, the air's warming up, but the soil's warming up. Those will send out shoots. They're already starting to come in to leaf, which is why the urgency to get these trees in now. They will take in the water around them and then keep on spreading with that root system. Enough root system will go out there and it will then not be competing with the grass because in fact the tree will be competing with the grass and actually taking over. So, eventually that grass will probably die because it will be shaded out in the future. Adam: And talking about shade, I'm surprised how closely planted these are, about five foot apart or thereabouts. If this was a forest in 20 years', 30 years' time, it's exceptionally dense. Or are you expecting a lot of them to fail? Tim: So, imagine you've got an oak tree and that throws down 40,000 acorns in usually every four years. So, it doubles its weight above ground. Adam: Sorry, 40,000? Tim: 40,000. A mature oak, yeah. Adam: It's worth pausing on that *laughs* A mature oak drops 40,000 acorns a year? Tim: Every four years, roughly. Adam: Because it doesn't do it every year, do they? Tim: No. So, it has what they call a mast year, which is the year when everything's come together. It's usually based on the previous weather, weather conditions. So, that doubles the weight of the tree above ground, that throws all those acorns. Now you imagine they're gonna be a couple of centimetres apart on the ground. They're not all going to make it. What they're hoping is that something will take those away. So, a jay or a squirrel, they'll move those acorns away. Not all of them will get eaten. In fact, jays let the acorn germinate, and then they eat the remains. So, they wait to see where the oak tree comes up and then they come back and eat the remains of the cotyledon. So, you imagine if all those were going to germinate, there'd be a mass rush, and what they're waiting for is for the parent plant to die. And if that falls over, then they can all shoot up, but they're not all going to survive. So maybe only one, maybe two will survive out of those 40,000 if they're close to the tree. Now, what we're doing here is, imagine there's the parent plant, the parent plant's not here. We've already spaced these out by this distance already. So, we've given them a better chance. So, they can now flourish. In time, so within sort of 10 to 12 years, we're going to start to be sending this out. So, you won't see this line. There are other parts on this site, 23 years old, and we've done a lot of filling through that. You wouldn't know it's been planted by, in a plantation. Adam: So, what would you, what's the failure rate? What's a good failure rate to stay with? Tim: It can really, really vary. I have to say that the soil here is tremendous. It's very rich. I'd be very surprised if we have a high failure rate. It could be 95% take. Adam: So, that's really interesting. And what are you planting then? I've seen some oak. I've seen some silver birch. What are you planting? Tim: So, Cheshire is all about oak and birch. So, 25% of these trees, so 7,500 are oak. And then 10% are silver birch. So that's 3,000. And then there's another 18 species that are all native to the UK that we're planting in here. So, things like rowan, holly, Scots pine and then we've got hazel, some large areas of hazel on this site that we've put in and then we've got hawthorn, blackthorn, couple of types of cherry, and then some interesting ones as well. So, we're putting some elm in and, specifically for a butterfly. So, there's a butterfly called white letter hairstreak. And the caterpillar feeds on the leaves of that tree. So, we've got those in Cheshire, but we're trying to expand it. And we've been working with the Butterfly Conservation group to get it right. So, they've given us some advice. Adam: I thought elm was a real problem with the Dutch elm disease? Tim: It still is. It still is. Adam: There was some talk that maybe some had found some natural resistance to Dutch elm disease. Tim: There are some resistant elm. And so, the plantings that we've done on here are what's classed as wych elm. It will still get Dutch elm disease, but it can last up to 16 years. And then there's always the opportunity to replant so we can get elm established. Then we can carry on spreading that through the site, so it's a starting point for that species we have. So again, we're trying to increase the biodiversity of the site by having specific trees for specific species. So, it's exciting. I mean, a lot's been lost and it won't become a beautiful wildflower meadow, although we are going to be doing some wildflower planting. We've already bought the seed. And in the next couple of weeks as it gets a little bit drier and a little bit warm, we're going to be, we're going to be sowing that in and that will come through the spring and summer. So, we've got lots to happen here as well. Adam: Oh brilliant. Well, it's so nice to see it at an early stage. I'll come back in a couple of years. Tim: It's probably one of the most exciting projects, tree wise, in Cheshire in a long time, because I've been doing this for a long, long time and these opportunities don't come up. So, for this to happen. And for the size of it as well. I mean, you're talking about a huge area of woodland now, over 180 acres. So, the second biggest area of woodland in Cheshire, so it's amazing. It truly is amazing. Adam: Well, I'm walking away. In fact, all tree planting has stopped for lunch. What is the time? Yeah, it's 12:45. So, everyone has stopped for sandwiches and teas, and they're spreading branches of some trees. And while they're doing that, two people are still working. That's me. And Paul? Hi. Paul: Hi. Adam: So, just explain to me what you do, Paul? Paul: I work as the comms and engagement manager for the north of England, so this is one of the best tree planting games we have had in a long time. Adam: And the people we've got here today, they're just locals? They from any particular groups? Paul: No, the Woodland Trust staff as part of our climate campaign now get a day to come out and we've got various corporate volunteering groups out also planters. We've got about 80 people out planting today. Adam: Well, that's amazing and we've just paused by this gorse bush. I'm rather partial to the gorse, so we'll take some shelter there. So, you talked about that this is part of a bigger campaign. What is that campaign? Paul: It's our climate campaign. And very simple hashtag plant more trees. So, trees are one, probably one of the best things we've got in the battle against climate change to help. And they have the added benefit that also they're good for biodiversity as well. So, twin track approach if you plant a tree. Obviously they're not the solution to everything, but we're hoping, as the Woodland Trust just to get more people planting trees. Adam: What is the target then? The sort of tree planting target you have? Paul: Well we have a target to get 50 million trees planted by 2030. Across all of the UK, so quite, quite a number. Adam: 50 million trees by 2030, so six years? Paul: Yeah, yeah. And we've, I think we've planted 6 million trees, 2023, yeah. Adam: Why is everyone taking a break? They've got millions to get in. That's quite an ambitious thing to get done, isn't it? Paul: Yeah. And we need, we need to plant billions of trees longer term. So, it's really important we get everyone planting trees, but it's all that message as well, right tree in the right place, and get trees planted where they're needed. Adam: And this is an unusual project, not least cause it's on an old golf course, which I've never heard of before. Has it attracted much interest? Is there a lot of engagement from the media and the public? Paul: Yeah, this site has had a remarkable amount of attention from the press. It started with local radio, then regional TV and then we've had things like Sky News Climate Show out here and then even international press coverage looking at rewilding of golf courses. CNN covered it alongside international golf courses and here in the UK, Frodsham. So, it's been amazing how it's captured everyone's imagination and it's been such a really positive good news story. It's a site that's a key site within the Northern Forest. So, the Northern Forest is another project that I'm involved with in the north of England, but. Adam: Did you say a little project? *laughs* Paul: Another, another project. Adam: Oh sorry. I was gonna say, a massive project. Paul: That's a massive project, which is again stretching, looking to plant 50 million trees from Liverpool to Hull and we're working with the Community Forests in each area, in this case the Mersey Forest and again just promoting grants and support to landowners and communities to get more, more trees planted and to help acquire land for tree planting and give the grants for tree planting. Adam: It must give you a warm feeling that your communications are actually being so well received that there is, it's not just you pushing out a message, that people want to hear this message. Paul: Yeah, it's really, really good to not have a negative message. Generally it's a really, really positive message that people wanted to hear because it's great for the community. They're getting some amazing green space with stunning views of the Mersey on the doorstep. It's interesting story about how we're changing from a golf course to a woodland site. We've got the ancient woodland, got natural regeneration. And just the fact that everyone's smiling, everyone's really happy and just so pleased that they're playing their small part in helping us create this new woodland site. Just great to be part of that, that positive good news story. Adam: Well, I'm going over to a group of people who have been busy planting all day but are now on their lunch break, just to bother them and ask them how their day has been and why they got involved in this. Adam: OK, well, you can, first of all, you can just shout out so, well we've, you all are hard at work I hear, but I've seen very little evidence of it cause everyone's sat down for lunch now. Have you all had a good day? Everyone: Yes. Adam: That would have been awful had they said no. Anyway, they all had a good day. So, I mean, it's lovely that you're out. You're all out here doing, I mean, very serious work. You've all got smiles on your face and everything. But this is important. I wonder why anyone's getting involved, what it means to you. Anyone got a view or get a microphone to you? Adam: So, what's your name? Volunteer 1: Rodon. Adam: Rodon. So, why are you here? Rodon: Well, nature, wildlife, planting, and I know the area quite well, so it's nice to see being developed in a sustainable way and being something for nature. It's a great place to come and visit, not far from the sandstone trail. I visit lots of Woodland Trust sites. I live in Warrington so it's sort of down the road, and it's, as I say, with the old wood over there that's quite an adventurous path. It's got lots of like sandstone sort of steps and little caves, and it's on the side of a cliff. So, this has kind of extended that over here as well. Adam: It would be a lovely thing to return to in a few years. Rodon: Well, it's a nice place now to be honest. Adam: Brilliant. Volunteer 2: My name is David Mays. I'm also from the from the town of Warrington as well. I'm an MSC and BSc student from local Hope University. I've finished both of them now, thankfully. I'm trying to get a job in the ecological management sector and I feel doing this working with people like Tim and Neil will help me massively get a, you know, it looks good on my CV. Most importantly, I really enjoy being out here and getting to know how the areas of ecological development, particularly in the woodland industry, is developing over the past few years and what are the plans for the future and what they hope to achieve in the long term and short term. Adam: That's very good. So, it's also very innovative of you putting out your CV live on air there. Good. Hopefully someone needing a job, with a job to offer will contact us. Good luck with that. So, oh yeah, we've come under another lovely tree. I mean it looks set. I was just saying to Kerry, it's so beautiful here. It looks like we've set this shot up. Really, you know? But here you are with your spades behind you taking a break from the trunk. So, first of all, have you, has it been a good day? Volunteer 3: Yeah. Yeah, it has been. It's been dry. Adam: It's been dry. OK. Alright. Well, let's get, so, the best thing about today is that it was dry. Volunteer 3: It's one of the positive points. Definitely. Yeah, after the trees. Adam: Yeah, with experience. So, why did you want to come out? What made you want to be part of this? Volunteer 3: Well, I think it's because we are having a bit of a push with the climate change agenda at the moment, so it's, working for the Woodland Trust it's just a nice opportunity to get away from the sort of the day job for me and get out into the field and actually do something practical and help towards that. Adam: Yeah. Did, I mean, has it been very physical for you today, has it? Volunteer 3: It's not been too bad, actually. It's been fine. Yeah. No, it's been OK. Ask me tomorrow, but yeah *laughs* Adam: Have you done this sort of stuff before? Volunteer 3: No, this is my first, this is my first planting day with the Trust. Adam: Yeah, and your last? Volunteer 3: No, no, I'll definitely no, it hasn't put me off. We'll definitely, definitely be back out again when I get the opportunity. It's been great. Adam: So, go on. Tell me what's all been like for you today? Volunteer 4: It's been really good. Yeah. I just can't believe we've covered so much ground in so little time, really. Seems we've only been here a few hours and because it's, I've been quite remote working from home, so it's quite nice kind of seeing some people I've met on screen, so it's nice to now, yeah, meet people in the real world and yeah, give back. I've never, I've not done anything like this before. Adam: So yeah, so is this your first time planting trees? Volunteer 5: It's not my first time planting trees, but it's my first time planting with the Trust. I was planting trees in my garden on the weekend, so I've done my back in. So, I've not quite got the planting rate of everyone else today I don't think, but you know, as the other guys were saying, we work office jobs really rather than on the front line of the Trust. So, it is good to get our hands dirty and to get involved with what we're supposed to be all about and contribute to our climate change campaign. So, hashtag plant more trees. Adam: Yeah. There we are, on message as well. Volunteer 5: I work in the brand team *laughs* Adam: There we are. There we are. Thank you. That's excellent. Adam: Now, really I should have started with this because we're nearing the end of my morning in the forest. But I've come to meet Esther, who's really one of the big brains behind the planting scheme. I know a bit modest about that, but tell me a little bit about what your involvement has been with this project. Esther: I've been a lead designer on this project, so I've been putting together the planting plans and lots of maps and really working with Neil, he's the site manager, to make sure that we make this the best scheme that we can make it. We've included coppice coupes for biodiversity and. Adam: Right, what's a coppice coupe? Esther: A coppice coupe is just an area of where you're planning to coppice. So, cut a tree down to its very base and then it grows back up as shoots. So, it only works with a few species and the species that we've chosen is hazel. So, those areas are 100% hazel. And it's great for biodiversity because you sort of go in a rotational like a 10-year cycle or something like that and you cut back say 10% of your trees in that year and then you get a lot of light to the ground and then you get hopefully a lot of floristic diversity coming through. Adam: And so, is that a job that, it sounds terrible the way I'm saying it – is that a job? Is it a job that you sit down and you go, you have a piece of paper or computer and you go, this is where we're, how we're gonna design the forest. We're gonna put ash over there. We're gonna put oak over there. Is that what you do? Esther: Yeah. Yeah. So, we use something called GIS. So, geographical information systems which basically let you draw shapes on a map and then you can colour code it and basically make a really coherent design of something to tell people, you know, what you're trying to achieve. What's gonna go where. Adam: And it's not every, it's not like building an extension to a house where you go well, there's probably thousands and going on all the time. There can't be that many forests being planted each day, so this must be a significant thing in your career I would have thought. Esther: Oh yeah, this is my first woodland creation scheme that I've seen from pretty much the start to the finish, so I've been working on it for 18 months and then an awful lot of hours gone into it. It's been really enjoyable and it's just a wonderful, wonderful to see it coming together. And yeah, and we're nearly finished now, so. Adam: And I know people often think, oh well, I'll come back in 100 years' time and you know, my great grandchildren might see these trees. But actually, within your career, you will see a forest here won't you. Esther: Yeah. So, I think within 10 years it will look like a woodland. It's had, this site has a history of agriculture, so it should in theory have a lot of nutrients in the soil. So, the trees should grow really well. So yeah, I would say within 10 to 15 years, it should look like fully fledged woodland, if not a bit young, but yeah. Adam: And are you optimistic about really the change that you and your colleagues can make? Cause there's a lot of pessimism around. What's your view? Esther: I think it's a really exciting time to be working in the environment sector and there's a lot of enthusiasm for making big changes in our lives and big changes in our landscape. I think there's a lot of hope to be had. And yeah, just seeing like the amount of enthusiasm on a planting day like this really fills me with a great deal of hope, yeah. Adam: Yeah. Have you planted any trees yourself? Esther: I have, yeah. Adam: How many of these have been yours, you reckon? Esther: We have 15, probably not that many *laughs* Adam: Oh, that's not bad. I thought you were gonna be like The Queen. I planted one. There was a round of applause and I went home *laughs* Esther: No, I put a lot of guards on, but yeah, not planting that many trees myself. Adam: Fantastic. Well, it's been a great day for me. Our half day out here and I'll definitely return. It's amazing, amazing, positive place. Esther: Wonderful, yeah. Adam: And the sun has shone on us. Metaphorical smile from the sun. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Esther: Thank you so much. *song plays* Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to The Woodland Trust website which is www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Welcome to the Count Me In Podcast, where we bring you conversations with top industry professionals and thought leaders. In this episode, host Adam Larson sits down with Jonathan Smalley, Co-Founder at Proxymity, for a deep dive into shareholder engagement in the corporate world. They discuss the critical importance of strengthening shareholder engagement, the impact on investor relations, and the ongoing digital transformation of proxy voting. If you want to gain insider insights and valuable advice from industry experts, you've come to the right place. Tune in to hear their engaging discussion on the future of shareholder communication and the evolving landscape of corporate governance.Episode Transcript:< Intro > Adam:            Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson, and in today's episode, we're diving into the world of shareholder engagement with Jonathan Smalley, co-founder at Proximity. We'll uncover why strengthening shareholder engagement is more crucial than ever, and why it's imperative for navigating the upcoming political landscape. From climate change to the rising influence of retail shareholders. We'll explore the global factors impacting shareholder engagement, and the shift towards digitalizing proxy voting. Jonathan shares valuable insights on bridging the gap in shareholder communication, and the potential benefits for organizations. Get ready to gain a deeper understanding of the challenges and opportunities, in shareholder engagement. < Music > Adam:            Well, Jonathan, I'm really excited to have you on the podcast today. And we're going to be talking about shareholder engagement, which is something not everybody touches, necessarily, but it's a very important part of your organization. Especially if you have a board or shareholders, if you're a public company. And, so, what makes strengthening shareholder engagement more critical, now than ever, for smoother investor relations. Especially as we're going into 2024 here, as we're recording at the end of 2023. What makes that so important, right now? Jonathan:       Firstly, thanks for having me, Adam. Yes, I'd say it's more critical than ever, but I'd say it's been critical for quite a long time. But when we look at what's behind us and what's ahead, there are some really big global factors that are not going away. That are continuing to heat things up, I feel like. I think as we head into 2024, also, it's the biggest political election year, globally, ever. Big elections in the U.S., India, South Korea, Mexico, likely to be one in the United Kingdom. And a lot of the factors, actually, that are going to impact political elections are going to be considerations when people go to the ballot box, are actually also transferable to the boardroom, or to the annual general meeting hall. Things like climate change is not going to surprise people, but that is something that is extremely topical and is a key part of issuer-shareholder engagement. Just this year, both inside the U.S. and outside, more shareholders' climate proposals than last year. And there are groups that cite that as financially material to their investment decisions now. And not just people on the street, but powerful, influential, institutional investor groups have got together and made that determination. And they're not just asking issuers and, obviously, the regulators are also calling for disclosures. It's also their service providers that are asking to do more.They want net zero policies. They want better climate integration into things like voting policies. And another one that's been heating things up for a long time now is Say-on-Pay. 94% now of S&P 1500 companies have a say on pay vote every single year. Ten years ago that would have been about 50%, so it's a big increase. And, I think, this year they, against recommendations from the leading two vote, advisors went down, but less against recommendations. But those resolutions got less support this year than last year. So that makes those contests quite frequent. And, then, I think, kind of linked to the climate change thing. You've got ESG versus increasing anti ESG, pretty polarized, and I think that's also something. As I sort of mentioned before, is going to also play out in political elections as well, not just in company elections.  And then I'd say that the big kicker to all of that is that we're just seeing year on year more votes, particularly, more votes from retail shareholders. Institutional shareholder voting has been quite high for a number of years now because of active ownership, because of stewardship codes, because of regulation. Retail, as a rule of thumb, has always been 20, 25% maybe in a contest a little bit higher than that. So there's clearly much more room for that to go into. And we've got some brokers going, "We're getting 30% a year on year increase." Some retail shared voting, and that's coming at a time where we're going through millennials and Gen Z's inheriting anywhere between $68 to $84 billion. And millennials, at the moment, are the most likely generational group to vote. So big issues against the backdrop of a great wealth transfer heading into a year that is going to be, probably, more politically charged than any we've seen across all the democratic countries, in the world, that are going to go to the polls. So I think engaging shareholders and having an efficient way for companies and shareholders to communicate back and forth is going to be more important than ever before, just because there's so much more coming. And I think we'll get on to maybe the technology a little bit later. But if you look at the legacy ecosystem about the way companies and shareholders communicate, we urgently need to upgrade that to deal with this. Because it's a good thing for companies and shareholders to communicate back and forth. We should be allowing it efficiently and digitally. And if we don't, and we're not ready for what's coming, then, there's going to be more negative headlines, I think, for companies to be worried about. As those general meetings debate and have voted on very important decisions for the company. Adam:            Yes, it's great how you outline all the different political factors. All the things happening around the world, that are causing more and more shareholders to become more engaged. And before we get to the technology piece, maybe, you could elaborate a little more about the importance of that communication between shareholders, in the organization. How it can impact a company's overall performance and even reputation? Jonathan:       Yes, I mean, starting with the reputational piece, it's probably easier to talk about the downside, sometimes, because, then, that's the thing that creates headlines. It creates headlines when results are challenged. When there's uncertainty about the results. And we saw a fairly infamous case a few years ago at the P&G's meeting, votes counted three times and it was a different result every time. And you're like, "How could that be?" And that was very expensive, both for the company, it w...

Our setting for this episode, Sheffield's Endcliffe Park seems like many other popular green spaces, but it has a hidden history: its waterways once helped fuel the Industrial Revolution in the ‘Steel City'. We discover how Sheffield's past intertwines with trees as local urban forester, Catherine Nuttgens, explains how nature and the city have shaped each other through the centuries, and why people here are so passionate about trees. We also meet Stella Bolam who works with community groups and schools to plant trees, and learn about the nearby Grey to Green project that's transformed tarmac into a tranquil haven for people and wildlife and tackles climate change too. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, today I am in Sheffield, known of course as the Steel City renowned for steel production during the 19th century Industrial Revolution. But despite that historical heritage, woodland and green spaces were, and still are, the lungs of the city and seen as vitally important. In fact, it is now, according to Sheffield University, the UK's greenest city, with 250 public parks and over four and a half million trees. That's more trees per person than any other city in Europe and in 2022, Sheffield was named as a Tree City of the World. And I'm meeting Catherine Nuttgens at Endcliffe Park. That's a 15 hectare open space opened in 1887 to commemorate the Jubilee of Queen Victoria. And interestingly, it isn't in the middle of the countryside; it is two miles from the city centre, the first in a series of connected green spaces, known collectively as Porter Valley Parks, all of which lie along the course of the Porter Brook. Well, although it really is coming to spring, we've been hit with some rather unseasonable snow, and I thought we were going to start with some snow sound effects, but actually this is a very fast-moving river that I'm standing by and I am meeting Catherine. Hello. So, Catherine, just explain a bit about who you are first of all.  Catherine: OK. Yes, I'm Catherine Nuttgens. I used to be the urban lead for the Woodland Trust, but I've just moved into independent work as an urban forester, an independent urban forester.  Adam: Fantastic. And you have. We've arranged to meet by this. I was gonna say babbling brook. It's really much more than that, isn't it? So is this the river? The local river.  Catherine: This is the River Porter, so this is one of five rivers in Sheffield. And it runs all the way up the Porter Valley, which is where we're going to be walking today.  Adam: Let's head off. So I have no idea where I'm going.  Catherine: Going that way. OK, yes, let's go. Let's go this way.   Adam: OK. You sound already confused.  Catherine: I was going to look at that. I was going to look at that tree over there. Cause we planted it. Is it still alive?  Adam: We can go have a look at that. It's still alive.  Catherine: Which tree? This tree? Here it's just so a total aside for everything that we're doing.  Adam: We're already getting sidetracked. You see, if a tree was planted.  Catherine: So yeah, I mean, this was one of... my old role at Sheffield Council was being community forestry manager and our role was to plant trees around the city. So one of the things that we planted were these War Memorial trees and it's very hard if you plant a tree to not go back to it and say, how's it doing? Is it OK? This is it, it's looking OK.  Adam: This looks more than OK and also it's still got three poppy wreaths on it from Remembrance Sunday. And a dedication, lest we forget: to all the brave men and women of Sheffield who gave their lives and those who hereafter continue to give in pursuit of freedom and peace. 2018 it was planted.  Catherine: One of the reasons I want to check it: it's quite a challenging place to plant a tree as there's an awful lot of football here. So the ground is really compacted, I think it's a red oak.   Adam: A red oak.  Catherine: That should be the right tree for this place. When they go in, they need so much water and it's 60 litres of water a week when it's dry, so keeping them alive, especially when the ground is so compacted is quite a challenge. It's something that happens all around the country is that people think ‘I've planted a tree and now I can walk away'. But actually the real work goes into sort of making sure trees have got enough water. So that they can, you know, for at least the first sort of two or three years of planting. So that they can survive to the good.  Adam: Brilliant. Alright. Well, look, we've already got distracted. We we've, we haven't even started. We've gone the wrong direction. But anyway, your oak is doing very well indeed.   Catherine: I'm sorry. It's it's, it's good.  Adam: So tell me a little bit about where we're going and why, why you've taken me on this particular trip.  Catherine: Sheffield is actually the most wooded, well, it's the most treed and wooded city in Europe. There are more trees per head in Sheffield than there are in any other city in Europe. So I thought the Porter Valley is quite good because there's quite a lot of cafés on the way. So that's quite good. But also it was a great way of describing about how the, how the landscape of Sheffield has kind of shaped the city and how how kind of people are shaped by the landscape also. The landscape is, you know, is is shaped by the people and, and here's a real case in point, because although it all looks very beautiful now and as we go up the valley  you'll see, you know it, it gets more rural. Actually it's all artificial. This is a post-industrial landscape.  Adam: So I mean when you say that, I mean this is this is a creative landscape this, so that I don't really understand what you mean. I mean they didn't knock, you didn't knock down factories. This must have been natural ground.  Catherine: Well, it was natural, but basically Sheffield started Sheffield famous for iron and steel, and it's also on the edge of the Peak District. So there's there's these five very fast flowing rivers that actually provided the power for the grinding holes are places where they made blades and scissors and scythes and all these different things. And so along rivers like this one, there were what were called the like, grinding hulls, the little factories where they they use the the power of the water to sharpen those blades and to you know, to forge them and things. As we go further up, we'll start to see how the Porter kind of has been sort of sectioned off. It's been chopped up and made into ponds. There's what we call goits that go off and they would have been the little streams that go off and power each, each grinding hull along here.  Adam: I mean you you say Sheffield is the most wooded city in the UK per head, and yet it hit the headlines a few years ago when the council started chopping down trees. And it wasn't entirely clear why, but the the local population were up in arms. So why was that? Is was that an aberration, or was that a change in policy?   Catherine  No, I mean people call Sheffield, the outdoor city. People in Sheffield have always been really connected to their trees. But I think when we got to the, you know, for the street tree protest, you know, the vision was beautiful, flat pavements and there were just these annoying trees in the way that were lifting all the paving slabs and everything. We thought what we need is lovely flat pavements, all the people that are complaining about trees all the time, they'll be really happy. But obviously that wasn't the case because people actually do quite like the trees. So what happened here was that the the council decided to send to send a crew to fell in the middle of the night, and then so they knocked on. Yeah. It was, yeah, honestly. Yeah, it was mad so. The the policemen came, knocked on people's doors, said ‘sorry, can you move your cars? Because we want to cut down the trees.' And now obviously if a policeman knocks on your door in the middle of the night, you know, it's it's pretty scary. So the ladies that they did that to said no, I think I'm going to sit under this tree instead. And it was just mad. Just think, what are they doing? Because it was in the Guardian, like the morning, it got international by the sort of lunchtime. And it was if, if you wanted a way to create an international protest movement about trees, so that's the way to do it. So. But I mean, that was the thing Sheffield is, so it's not an affluent city, but people do stuff in Sheffield, you know, something's happened, someone's doing a thing about it, and they're really good at organising. And in the end, thank goodness the council stopped. If there are things going on in your city, dialogue is always the best way, and consulting and co-designing with the public is so important because it's that's what these trees are for. They're here to benefit people. So if you're not discussing kind of the plans with the people then you know, it's not it's you're not properly doing your job, really.  Adam: And you said there's lots of choice of places to go with trees in and around Sheffield. And the reason you've chosen this particular place is why? Why does this stand out?  Catherine: Well, I think I mean, first of all, it's quite it it, it is a beautiful valley that's kind of very accessible. We've got, I mean here the kind of manufactured you know the Porter has been Victorianised, it's all got these lovely little rills and things. Little rills. You know where little rills kind of maybe that's the wrong word, but the kind of.  Adam: No, but I do. Teaching me so many new words. So what is the rill?  Catherine: So you know, just kind of little bits in the the stream where they've made it, you know, kind of little rocks and things.  Adam: Like rocks. Yeah, that is beautiful. They're like tiny little waterfalls. It's wonderful. I love it.  Catherine: So here for example, I mean looks lovely like these ponds that we have. I mean there's always there's things like the, the kingfishers and and there's the kind of Endcliffe Park Heron that everyone takes pictures of. And there are often Mandarin ducks. I think we passed some Mandarin ducks earlier on, didn't we? But this is actually. This is a holding pool for what would have sort of, how would the grinding hull that now has gone. So it's actually a piece of industrial heritage. Yeah, it looks, I mean, it has now all been kind of made nice. In the ‘30s some of these pools were were kind of put over to and probably in Victorian times as well. They're actually swimming areas. They converted them into swimming.  Adam: I mean the water, I mean, you can't see this if you're listening, but water's super muddy or or brown. It's not appealing to swim in, I'll just say, but OK, no, no one does that these days.  Catherine: No. Well, they they do up at Crookes, actually. There are people going swimming that that's a, that's a fishing lake. So it's much deeper, but it's a little bit.  Adam: Are you a wild swimmer?   Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. Let's go out into the peak a bit more and out into the the lovely bit.  Adam: Ohh wow, you said that's the way to. I mean, I can't get into a swimming pool unless it's bath temperature, let alone.  Catherine: It's lovely in the summer. I'm not a cold swimmer, right? But I do love it in in the summer. It's not. I mean, that's what's great about Sheffield, really. And that, like, there's so much nature just within sort of 20 minutes' walk. I mean, some people just get on their bike and go out into the peak and whether it's you're a climber or a wild swimmer or a runner or just a walker, or you just like beautiful things. You know? It's it's it's kind of here.  Adam: And there is an extraordinary amount of water, I mean. It's, I mean, you probably can hear this, but there seems to be river on all sides of us. It's so we've been walking up the Porter Brook, which you can hear in the background and we've come across Shepherd Wheel a water powered grinding hull last worked in the 1930s.  Catherine: Come this way a little bit. You can see the there's the wheel that they've put together. So inside. I'm just wondering whether we can through a window we can look in. But so so Sheffield say a very independent sort of a place. The what used to happen is the the little mesters there were they hired. They were men.   Adam: Sorry that's another word. What was a mester?  Catherine: That is another word. A mester. That is. I mean. So I think it was like a little master, so like a master cutler or whatever. A little master. But but in in there there were there were individual grinding grindstones right with the benches, the grinding benches on and they hired a bench to do their own piece work. So so it was very independent, everyone was self-employed and you know they they. So the wheel actually sort of was important for probably quite a few livelihoods.  Adam: We've come up to a big sign ‘Shepherd's Wheel in the Porter Valley'. Well, look at this. Turn the wheel to find out more. Select. Oh, no idea what's going. You hold on a sec. Absolutely nothing. It's it's it's, it's, it's, it's a local joke to make tourists look idiotic. Look, there's another nutter just turning a wheel. That does nothing.  Catherine: And actually an interesting well timber fact is that up in North Sheffield there's a wood called Woolley Wood there and all the trees were a lot of the trees are hornbeam trees. Now hornbeam is really good, as its name might suggest, because it it was used to make make the cogs for for for kind of structures like this, because the the wood was so very hard and also it was quite waterproof. There's actually when the wheel bits were replaced here they used oak. But one of the I think one of the problems with oak is that it's got lots of tannins in that can actually rot the iron work. So so actually. There's kind of knowledge that's been lost about how to use timber in an industrial way and and.  Adam: So if you happen to be building a water wheel, hornbeam is, your go-to wood. I'm sure there's not many people out there building water wheels, but you know very useful information if you are. All right, you better lead on.  Catherine: I think we can head unless you want to go, won't go down that way or go along along here much. There we go. We'll cross. We'll go this way. I think. Probably go down here. Yeah, this has got a great name, this road. It's Hanging Water Road, which I'm not sure I would think. It must be a big waterfall somewhere. I'm not sure whether there is one right so. It's just a a good name. So yeah, so this is more I think going into more kind of established woodland. Still see we've got the two rivers here.  Adam: So tell me about where we're heading off to now.  Catherine: We're going up into. I think there's a certainly Whitley Woods is up this way and there's one called Bluebell Woods, which would indicate you know, ancient... bluebells are an ancient woodland indicator, and so that would suggest that actually these are the bits where the trees have been here for much a much longer time. I think there's still kind of one of the things that they try and do in Sheffield, is kind of bring the woods back into traditional woodland management, where you would have had something with called coppice with standards. So the coppice wood was cut down for charcoal burning cause. So the charcoal, these woods, all these many, many woods across Sheffield fuelled all this steel work. You know they need. That was the the heat that they needed. So charcoal burning was quite a big industry. And and the other thing is that's good for us is that actually having kind of areas of open woodlands, you know, open glades and things, it's really, really good for biodiversity because you have that edge effect and you know, opens up to woodland butterflies and things like that.  Adam: We're just passing an amazing house built on stilts on the side side of this hill, which has got this great view of the river.  Catherine: There's. Yeah, there's some incredible houses around here.  Adam: Where? Where so which where are we heading?  Catherine: We'll go back down that way.  Adam: OK. All right. You may be able to hear it's not just the river, it is now raining. And actually it's all making the snow a bit slushy, but we're on our way back. We're going to meet a colleague of yours. Is that right?  Catherine: That's right. Yeah. So Stella Bolam, who. She's a community forestry officer who works for Sheffield City Council. She's going to be joining us. And yeah, she worked with me when I was working for the council and is in charge of planting trees with communities across Sheffield.  Adam: OK, so Stella, hi. So, yeah, so. Well, thank you very much for joining me on this rather wet day on the outskirts of Sheffield. So just tell me a little bit about what you do.  Stella: Yeah, of course. So our team, community forestry, we basically plant trees with people. It's our tagline, I suppose, and so we we work with community groups and schools to plant those trees and provide aftercare in the first three years, two-three years.  Adam: Aftercare for the trees. Yeah, yeah.  Stella: Yes. Ohh obviously for the people as well I mean.  Adam: What sort of? Give me an example of the type of people you're working with and what you're actually achieving.  Stella: Yeah, yeah. So I can tell you about a couple of projects I did. When I first joined a couple of years ago. So one was in an area called Lowedges, which is quite a deprived area of Sheffield. In the south of Sheffield. And we worked with a couple of local groups that were already formed to build, to plant a hedge line through the park. It's quite long. It's about 2000 whips we planted, and we also worked with a group called Kids Plant Trees, who advocate nature-based activities for children, which obviously includes planting trees, and we work with a couple of local schools. So we map all the trees that we plant and so for our records.   Adam: And how did you get involved in all of this?  Stella: I a couple of years ago I changed careers.   Adam: You were a journalist. Is that right?  Stella: I was a journalist. Yeah.   Adam: What sort of journalist?  Stella: I did print journalism and that.   Adam: Local through the local newspapers?  Stella: No, I worked in London for at least 10 years. I worked in London. I moved up to Sheffield and I was a copywriter.  Adam: Right. So a very different world. So it wasn't wasn't about nature. You weren't. You weren't the environment correspondent or anything.  Stella: It was very different. No, no, not at all. It's human interest stories, though. So I've always been interested in in people and communities, and that that's the thing that I've tried to embed in my work in forestry as well and trying to sort of help people connect to nature and understand that that connection a bit more.  Adam: You've moved around the country and we've been talking about how important trees are to people in Sheffield in particular. Is that true? Is that your experience, that it is different here?  Stella: Yes, they're very passionate about trees and that can go either way. So you know there's people that love them and people that are actually quite scared of them.   Adam: Scared? Why? Why scared?  Stella: Yeah, I think because a lot of people don't understand trees and they think they're going to fall over. They say things like, oh, look at, it's moving in the wind. And I sort of say, well, that's natural, that's how they grow, right? But obviously I wasn't taught that at school. So people don't have that general understanding about trees. So I try to sort of, I suppose, gently educate people if they do say negative things. Because I obviously do love trees and you know, I think they give us so much,   Adam: And you said you work with a lot of schools.  Stella: Yeah.  Adam: Do you feel young people have a particularly different view of nature and trees than older generations? Do you see any distinction there at all?  Stella: Yes, I think though, because of the climate emergency we're in, I think kids now are much more attuned with what's going on with you know, are the changes that are happening in our climate. So we do incorporate a little bit of education in our work with schools. So we talk to them about trees, why they're important, and we'll often let them answer. We won't tell them they'll put up their hands and say, well, because they give us oxygen or, you know, the animals need them. So I didn't know anything about that when I was at school. So I think that's probably quite a major change.  Adam: You must know the area quite well, and there's lots of different parts of woodlands in and around Sheffield, so for those who are visiting, apart from this bit, where would you recommend? What's your favourite bits?  Stella: Ohh well I I like the woods near me actually. So I I live in an area called Gleadless and Heely and there's there's Gleadless have have got various woodlands there. They're ancient woodlands and they're not very well known, but they're absolutely amazing. But the other famous one in Sheffield is Ecclesall Woods. Yes, it's very famous here. It's kind of the flagship ancient woodland. It's the biggest one in South Yorkshire.  Adam: And you talked about getting into this industry in this career, you're both our our experts, both women that that is unusual. Most of the people I I meet working in this industry are men. Is that first of all is that true and is that changing?  Stella: It is true. Yeah, I think it's currently about I'm. I'm also a board member and trustee of the Arboricultural Association, so I know some of these statistics around the membership of that organisation and I think there's. It's between about 11 and 15% of their members are women. So yes, it is male and it's also not very ethnically diverse either. I think it is changing and I think I can see that sometimes even when I'm working with kids. And you know, young girls who are you can see they're like really interested. And I sort of always say to them, you know, you can do, you can work with trees when you when you're grown up, you can have a job working with trees. And like a lot of sectors, I think traditionally men have dominated. And I think a lot of women sort of self-select themselves, edit them out of their options, really, cause you you're not told about these things. I mean, I'd never heard of arboriculture five years ago.  Adam: We've we've just rejoined the riverbank. It's quite wide. So this is the Porters River? Porter Brook been told that so many times today I keep forgetting that the Porter River, no didn't quite get it right. Porter Brook. Is it normally this high? I mean it's properly going fast, isn't it? Think that's amazing.  Stella: Yeah. So I was going to just have a chat with you a little bit about a project called Eat Trees Sheffield.  Adam: Yes, OK.  Stella: Yeah. So this is a project that was initiated by an organisation called Regather Cooperative, but they also are massive advocates of supporting a local sustainable food system and as part of that, it's harvesting apples. And they make a beautiful pasteurised apple juice from apples locally.  Adam: From an actual planted orchard?  Stella: No so well, they actually have just planted an orchard, but no, they basically accept donations from the community.  Adam: So if someone's got an apple tree in their garden. They they pull off the apples and send it in.  Stella: Yeah, well, they have to bring them in. Yeah. And they have to be in a certain condition that they're good for juicing, but yes. And then they get a proportion of the juice back the the people that have donated get some juice back.   Adam: A fantastic idea. Fantastic.   Stella: Yeah. And then they obviously sell the juice as part of their more commercial offering. But yeah.  Adam: That's wonderful. So if you, if you've got a couple of apple trees in your garden, and you live around the Sheffield area, what's the the name of the charity?  Stella: It's called Regather Cooperative. So, we're trying to create a network of people that, basically, can be connected to each other and build skills to look after these orchards because they do need looking after and valuing. They're very important, so yeah.  Adam: Yeah, sort of connects people to their very local trees. It's interesting. I have a a very good friend of mine in London. Who does sort of guerilla gardening. And on the the street trees has just planted runner beans and things coming up so so you know it just grows up. You can see people walking down and going oh, are those beans hanging off the trees? and you she you know, just pops out and grabs some and goes and cooks with them. And you know I'm not. I always think. I'm not sure I'd want to eat some some stuff from this street tree because God knows how. What happens there? But I I love the idea. I think it's a really fun idea.  Stella: So it's just it's been nice meeting you.  Adam: Well, same here. So we're back, we're back by the river.  Catherine: By the river all along the river.   Adam: All along, so yes. Final thoughts?   Catherine: Yeah. So I mean, it's been so great to have, you know, have you visit Sheffield today, Adam. Like, it's always such a privilege to to show people around kind of the bits of our city that are so beautiful. Well, I think, you know, just this walk today in the Porter Valley and the fact that there's so many trees where there used to be industry is something that Sheffield's had going for it I think throughout the whole of its history. The the woodlands were originally so important to be the green lungs of the city - that was really recognised at the turn of the 20th century. But now if you go into the city centre, there's projects like Grey to Green, which is basically where they used to be a very, rather ugly road running round the back of the city centre, which has now been converted into 1.5 kilometres of active travel routes, and there the space has been made for trees. So instead of roads now there's kind of special soil and trees and plants and grasses and things like that. They're like, they look amazing, but also they help to combat climate change. So when the rains fall like they have done at the moment, the trees slow down all the flow of the water going into the River Don, it stops Rotherham from flooding further down. But it also helps well it also encourages people to visit the city centre and enjoy the shade of the trees and, you know, takes up some of the pollution that's in the city. And I think it's, you know, this kind of new kind of thinking where we're actually not just looking after the woods we've already got and letting it grow. Actually making new spaces for trees, which I find really exciting and you know, hopefully that's going to be the future of not just Sheffield, but lots of cities around the country.  Adam: That's a brilliant thought to end on. Thank you very much for a fantastic day out and I was worried that it would be really wet and horrible and actually, yet again it's been quite pretty, the snow and it's only rained a little bit on us. Look, a squirrel.   Adam: Well, I hope you enjoyed that visit to one of Sheffield's open wooded spaces, and if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to the Woodland Trust website woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wanderings.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Welcome to Count Me In! In this episode, our host Adam Larson welcomes back Alissa Vickery, Chief Accounting Officer, SVP Accounting and Control at FLEETCOR, who shares her journey as an interterm CFO at FLEETCOR. Discover how Alissa balanced multiple finance responsibilities, handled the weight of the CFO role, and developed her leadership strategies. Get ready for an engaging discussion that will inspire and inform. Full Episode Transcript:< Intro > Adam:            Welcome to Count Me In. In today's episode, we are excited to have Alissa Vickery back on the show. Alissa is the Chief Accounting Officer, Senior Vice President, Accounting and Control at FLEETCOR Alissa, who served as the interim CFO at FLEETCOR shares her experience stepping into the role, navigating the transition, and balancing multiple responsibilities. She discusses the importance of building a strong team, seeking advice from mentors and auditors, and effectively communicating with peers and leaders.  She candidly shares her success stories and learning opportunities, during her time as the interim CFO. Lastly, Alissa reflects on how this experience has shaped her career trajectory, and emphasizes the importance of being a business partner within the finance leadership role. Keep listening to hear Alissa's insights and advice. Let's get started. < Music > Adam:            Well, Alissa, we're very excited to have you back on the Count Me In podcast. And today we're going to be talking, a lot, about your role, how you served as an interim CFO at FLEETCOR. And, so, to start off, maybe, you can briefly describe your experience as an interim role and what were your main responsibilities? Alissa:            Sure, so I guess I'll back it up a minute, when you get asked to sit in that kind of seat, even on an interim basis, it is quite overwhelming and humbling, all at the same time. And, so, after serving in various roles in the finance sector here at FLEETCOR over the last 12 years, stepping into the role and the responsibilities, and I'll just call it the weight of the position was, quite frankly, a moment where for me, professionally, I had to really look in the mirror and say, "Okay, I can do this. I'm ready. I can accomplish what my leaders are hopeful that I can accomplish." But in terms of what prepared me for that, I think it's the experience of being on the journey of the FLEETCOR trajectory over that 12-year cycle, and holding various roles throughout the organization. But always in a global capacity, and always in the interest of, I'll call it the overall finance good.  Whether it's helping with a deal and making sure that we're thinking through the risks and rewards appropriately, working on valuation, thinking about internal audit. It's really those experiences that prepared me to be able to step into the role in that moment, at that time, whether anticipated, unexpected, whatever. And, so, it was quite the opportunity, at that time. Adam:            Yes, I can imagine the weight of stepping, into something like a CFO. Because if you're not used to that, if you've never been in that role, there's a certain level of responsibility that is on your shoulders, all of a sudden. Like one day you're not, and then the next day you are. So it's a big transition. How did you navigate that transition to that new role? Alissa:            I would say I spent as much time as I could with my outgoing CFO, that was step one. Talked a lot with HR around how to navigate the executive ranks, if you will. I was already in the room, but having the CFO hat was a very different hat. And then I would say getting advice from both of those parties, as well as my external auditors. Who were already, I'll call it trusted business partners, as we navigated forward, and just trying to be, quite frankly, as prepared as I could be.  But then also have the chats with my CEO, to understand exactly where he wanted me to focus. Because I knew that it would be challenging to be all things to all people. I already know that in my personal life/professional life. You can't do all things excellent, at the same time. If you're being a great employee, sometimes, you're not as great of a mom or a wife. And, so, always striking the right balance. And, so, understanding what he was hoping that I would help control, and help manage, and get him comfortable with, as we moved forward. And, then, I think getting the advice from my outgoing CFO, who was quite gracious with the time he had left in the organization, around making sure that I was leaning on others. I was not in this by myself. I have a team. We have a strong team, and they help to build and support a great finance organization. "Don't forget to lean on them, ask for help, and seek the advice of others when needed." At the end of the day, I had already built the trust throughout the organization through my tenure, and through the various projects I've worked on over the years. And, so, not discounting the value, and I'll call it just the level of experience that facilitated in the new seat. Adam:            I can only imagine, but it sounds like you had a great team. And having a great team around you really helps lift you up, and prepares you for that. Are there certain leadership strategies that you had to implement to try to navigate this waters? Because one day you're same level as other people, and the next day you're suddenly a C-level person, right? Alissa:            Yes, it's just the short answer. It was super fascinating because suddenly I had a new peer group. And, so, working directly with each of those peers, and I have to say they were so gracious, and saying, "How can I help you be successful?" "Let me know what you need." So I think that's part of it.  But, then, too, in terms of the skill sets, it was really having the fortitude to find the right help. Back to my statement, I can't be all things to all people, at the same time. I already was the chief accounting officer, still am the chief accounting officer. But I had to elevate to CFO and wear both hats.  And, so, making sure that I brought in some help to supplement where I knew I needed to step out, and being thoughtful about what that skill set looked like. Knowing that I wasn't going to be able to give every piece of the process, the time that I would have had I only been wearing the single hat.  And, so, I would say learning to let it go, it's very difficult. Learning to trust your people in a way, I was already trusting them. But I had to trust them in a whole new level, and they're all fantastic, but it's just a change in mindset. I think type A personalities tend to keep it close, and close to the vest, and understand all the moving pieces, and then you can release.  And, so, I had to get out of my comfort zone, greatly. And I had to figure out new ways, quite frankly, to manage my calendar, manage my availability for those team members. Provide the right level of support to my new peer group, as well as be available to my CEO whenever he needed it. Adam:            Yes, and the whole thing about being able to wear multiple hats. You can't wear both hats, at the same time, and be available for both sections. So how did you balance having two different roles in your lap, at the same time? Alissa:            I would say focusing on the hottest fire or the most important thing, at any one point in time, and, quite frankly, having a significantly longer day. I would start my day a little earlier than I would typically, and certainly ended it later. And it is no joke when you take on a new role, even in the same org. It takes a level of commitment, and a level of just dive down, and hunker down, and get the work done attitude. That you don't typically have when you've sort of been in the role, in that same role, for a period of time. And, so, just being quite reflective on what were the most important things, at each point in time. Looking at my week, that weekend, in advance, and really being thoughtful about where I was going to be able to spend that time, working in time, to at least have one touch point with my finance and accounting team. So that I was super clear where we were in either budget cycle work, or in 10-Qs, 10-Ks.  Because that's really what we're hyper focused on, as well as I'll call it the internal audit work. Making sure we're tracking through supporting our auditors. Having enough of an awareness of what's going on, but not being able to own it. Really expecting my team members to own it and report up to me. So that we are striking the right balance and achieving the outcomes that are expected. Adam:            Were you able to identify different strategies or better strategies, on how to deal with different tasks that you may have done differently, if you just had the one hat on? Were you able to identify different strategies to do things more efficiently, and maybe find better ways to do things for the organization, overall? Alissa:            Well, sure, and I think implementing technological tools that help you to do things in a smarter, and more effective, efficient way, are always huge. And, so, we did that in a number of, I'll call it the budgeting process pieces. And it was probably the best thing that ever happened to the team, and to the process, because it forces you to take a step back. You have to find a way to do it smarter, more effectively, with the most accurate answer you can have. Because if we know anything about a budget or a forecast, it's wrong. But we're trying to get it as on point as possible. And, so, bringing in a little bit of contract help, combined with the team really having to take ownership. It forced that level of, "Okay, let's use this system to do this piece of work. We haven't used the system to do it before." Engaging with the leadership team to make sure that they're thinking through the risks, the same way I might. So that when I step in, I'm just asking the very top of the house questions. Okay, "Did we do A, B, C, D, E,?"  Okay, "Yes. Wait, F you haven't done that, yet? Go back, make sure this is part of our model, and then come back to me to where I feel really good about whatever the output is." And that's more on the budgeting and forecasting side, on the Qs and the Ks' side, it's really being super conscious over what the open items and tasks are to get us to end a job.  Knowing that when we acquire businesses, that entails a level of incremental effort documentation. It makes it from a deal document to a piece of accounting support, and memo, to the 10-Q or 10-K. It's a journey that involves a lot of third parties that help us to get to the right answers, and the team had to own it. And, so, I had to get comfortable that the team could own it, with just my sort of at the top, read the document, feel comfortable, that it's not materially misstated because they've done their jobs. Adam:            Mh-hmm. How did your leadership style evolve throughout this process? Because I'm sure you had to adapt as a leader, with two different teams, and different peer groups. How did that evolve over this time? Alissa:            I think it fundamentally shifted from being a little bit more hands on because I couldn't be, to the trust but verify, have the conversations that give you confidence. So we all do these DiSC Surveys here at FLEETCOR, which I think are really useful in terms of how somebody's brain works, and where they pivot on a cycle.  And I would say I would absolutely tend to be highly analytic, a little less direct, probably, a quieter person in the room, unless I feel like I have value to add. Stepping into the CFO role, I had to get a little uncomfortable. I had to be willing to find my voice. I had to be willing to speak up. Because I do know the business, I do know the risks. I do know the people at the table, and I know their businesses, and their products.  And, so, trying to ensure that I'm adding value, supporting our CEO and his efforts to get to the final envelope for the budget. But then, ultimately, being able to translate everything that I'm doing from a financial leadership role and pivot that into an investor purview.  So where I'm sitting on stage, at an investor conference, being asked questions that are, quite frankly, at a very high-level about the organization. But then dive down into the details, and finding my voice and being able to answer those in a way that is clear, concise, and eloquent. Because they're trying to get comfortable with what we're doing as a business and a public company, and, ultimately, to build investor confidence in the stock.  And, so, that is a muscle that I did not have prior to the role. It is one I feel like I exercised quite a bit. I worked a lot with my investor relations team, and they are fabulous, I have to give them a lot of props. Because that prep work and the homework, to then be ready to go, step on stage not three months, probably three months into the role, it was fantastic and a great learning opportunity for me. Adam:            Yes, that sounds like a great learning opportunity, it really stretched you as a person. And, so, thinking about your career development and where you see yourself going. How did serving as this interim CFO, how did that change your trajectory, of where you saw yourself going in your future professional development? Alissa:            Yes, it's a great question. I would not have said that my end goal was CFO prior to taking the role. Not because I didn't think I could do it, but just because I think we, as humans, we get comfortable in roles, and comfortable even in the space in which we serve. "I am an accountant, it's comfortable. I know what I'm doing, it feels like home." But stepping into the CFO role, forcing me to get a little uncomfortable, a little out of my comfort zone. And finding that voice where I'm more of a leader in the room, as it relates to business as a whole; being thoughtful, strategic, partnering with our different operators to where we all achieve the ultimate, bigger, better outcome.  I think, then, it changes your mindset a little bit. And, so, I absolutely see a future role where, hopefully, it benefits me that I've served in the role, but perhaps as a CFO in the future. Of course, for now, though, I would say having served in the role, it's not like the respect goes away, those relationships exist. And as my new CFO came in, we had a very direct and honest conversation about what I hoped it looked like going forward. And very pleased, so far, that I'm still allowed to have the seat at the table, to be a voice in the room.  I know my place as the lead of accounting versus the lead of finance. But striking the right balance, and being a business partner for him, as well, as he learns the business, the people, the risks, what we're trying to accomplish. And, so, hopefully, I'm a much more effective chief accounting officer, for having served in that CFO role at this org. Adam:            Yes, it gives you a whole new insight. And, plus, you've walked in his shoes, so you can say, "Hey, this is what I was doing, but let's talk through a better way of doing that." And it gives you that newfound respect, right? Alissa:            Yes, it's interesting, as you walk along the journey, especially, given that was my first time in that CFO seat. You have perspective coming out the other side of it.  Adam:            Of course. Alissa:            That you absolutely don't have, as you're trying to just work through your days, your weeks, your months, your deadlines, your filings, your earnings' calls, whatever it is. And, so, watching him come in, as brand new to the org, and how he operates has been insightful, for me. But also, it has allowed me to reflect on the experience, which was almost 10 months in length. To really have my takeaways as, "Okay, this is what I did. Here's what I could have done better. Here's what I think I actually did a pretty good job on, and here's the things that I didn't touch at all. So I want to go figure out how I can continue to grow and learn in those capacities." Adam:            Yes, so I imagine there's somebody listening to this podcast, and thinking they either have the opportunity, or they're saying, "What if I get this opportunity?" What advice would you give somebody who has the opportunity to step into interim CFO or balance multiple finance responsibilities? What advice would you give them, walking into that? Alissa:            I would say, first, take a deep breath, it's going to be fine. If you're asked to step into the role or you volunteer to step in the role. If you have the gumption and believe you have enough of the skill set to perform in that role, you probably do.  And, then, from there, I think, it's assess your team where your gaps are, fill in for where the weaknesses exist. Whether that was you stepping out, so you don't have anybody to fill that role, or you have known other challenges in the group and fill those holes. So that you were able to focus on the bigger picture, the more strategic aspects of the role, as opposed to getting sucked back into the weeds. I think it's the weeds that can tend to bog you down and, potentially, drown you. And then once you've got that core team and you have confidence, lean on them, empower them, make it a growing opportunity for them as well. Because I think, collectively, we all get something more out of it if we all benefit from the temporary elevation in title/role responsibility. Provide the guidance, lead them well. You are in the seat to be the financial leader, not just to make sure the numbers are right.  And, so, that entails working with your business operators. But also working with the individuals who, maybe, used to be your peers, and helping them ensure that they're able to convey the messages, and the answers that the CEO is looking for. Or at least the outputs that the CEO is looking for, maybe, it's not always the answer that he wants. But provide the support for them when they need it, along the process, and creating trust in the org is ultimate.  I tend to have an open-door policy, sometimes, to my own detriment because the door just opens. I'll be honest, I debated whether I needed to shut the blinds and lock the door, just to ensure that we aren't interrupted, but it's a good thing, it's a good problem to have. And I think my personality just lends itself to that, in general. But being available for there're individuals who need you when they need you. Because they may walk down the hallway and they may not do it again.  And, so, being available and ready for that chat when it occurs or when it needs to occur. And, then, I think being a change agent when appropriate, knowing that the way we've done things isn't always the way we need to continue to do things. Being thoughtful about how we use technology, I've always said, especially, in large orgs, it's a little bit like eating an elephant, you're not going to do it all in one bite. It's one bite at a time.  And, so, while we may not build the Titanic, all in one year. What we can do is make incremental improvements to our technical debt, to our financial processes, to how we analyze our business. To the outputs that, ultimately, help investors better understand what we're doing, or leadership better understand what the performance of the company truly is. So that we do make improvements year over year, to where over a period of time, it is much more meaningful. Adam:            Yes, I think that's some wonderful advice. And I was wondering if you'd be willing to maybe share a success story while you were interim and maybe even a failure because you've been telling some great things. But I'm sure everything wasn't flower beds and roses the whole time you were the interim CFO. Alissa:            I think a success story is when I was appointed to the role, immediately looking for somebody to fill my spot. To fill the gap that I was going to leave. So that I could truly focus on supporting the business and my leadership team. I cannot speak to how important that decision was now after the fact, and how finding the right person. Not just somebody, but the right somebody or somebodies to come in and assist. Having a network in the payments and tech community, and the financial community, in the Atlanta market, enabled me to identify who those right individuals might be. And I interviewed a lot of people to try to identify the right resource, and that was a total home run. It enabled me to step out of the role and just know it was going to get done. But it also empowered my team to really own their pieces of the business, and their pieces of the finance puzzle, in a way that they had not had to prior because of my level of engagement and involvement. So I'm super proud of what we accomplished there.  So, perhaps, a learning opportunity that I got out of the experience, is just learning how to ensure that I'm always effectively communicating with all members of my leadership team. There were a couple of instances where I felt like I could have better communicated or more proactively communicated. And it was one of those things where I didn't figure it out until after the fact, which is on me. I did have the grace of being in the role on an interim basis. And, so, those individuals who really needed me to communicate that information more proactively, they absolutely rationalized where we were. But it's something I can grow from, absolutely. Adam:            I think it's amazing, and thank you for being vulnerable to share that learning opportunity. Because it's not easy to share those things because, sometimes, you just want to talk about all the successes, but it's difficult. And you mentioned a little bit when your new CFO came in and you had those conversations. Can we talk a little bit more about what that transition was like, as you transitioned back out of the role? Alissa:            Sure. So I would say our new CFO is a very experienced financial executive. And, so, he came in with his views as to what finance looks like, certainly, in other organizations. A benefit that I didn't necessarily have stepping into the role. And, so, he was cognizant of, perhaps, the situation that I might be feeling, certainly given the situation I was in. But just trying to be open and open-minded, quite frankly, about how we would hand off the responsibilities, the tasks. Even as simple as, "Well, if you came in right before earnings, who's going to speak on the earnings' call?" And, so, just striking the right balance, in those very first days. And, then, once we had those first days behind us, then, just being open to the learning experience. But also trying to share with him as many nuggets of knowledge as I could. But allow him to ask me questions as it was organic to his growth trajectory, and learning experience here at the company. And, so, I would say really trying to treat it as a business partnership.  Because, ultimately, I believe that this organization needs a leader like this individual that is brought in, with a lot of financial acumen, a lot of experience, which enables them to lead in a different way. We are a large global S&P 500 company. And, so, I'm really excited about what the future holds with him at the helm. Adam:            I think that's great, being able to partner, be that business partner. And a lot of examples you've been sharing today have been about being that business partners. And I wonder if you could, maybe, share a little bit about how you view the finance role and the leadership, as the business partner within an organization. Alissa:            So I think that finance becomes the connective tissue. Without finance, it's really difficult to understand what the results are, what the performance looks like, gathering KPIs. Gathering them in a way that's consistent, accurate, and complete across an org, to where you have comparative metrics. And, so, it's not just in terms of producing the results. But then having those next-level conversations with operators or being part of their executive meetings, to understand what's happening in the belly of the beast. We don't have a ton of businesses, but we have enough to where going that extra layer down helps you to just really rationalize the why behind what the numbers are trying to tell you. Because the numbers only can go so far.  And, so, understanding that sales is connected to credit underwriting, which is connected to bad debt. Which is, ultimately, connected to the financial performance of that business unit, is super helpful. But then understanding that the personalities at play, and perhaps how you compensate individuals may drive behaviors that either were intended or unintended.  And, so, it becomes this great web, if you will, of, connectedness. That if you insert yourself into the process at the right points, whether it's credit, sales, operational results, recruiting, whatever. It really does help frame up the why behind the business performance, and business results, and how we plan to move forward from those as well. Adam:            Yes, Alissa, your story has been wonderful to hear, and it's not every day you get to hear somebody's story of being in an interim position, especially, a CFO's position. And, so, I just want to thank you so much for being able to share your experience with our audience, today. And thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. Alissa:            Thank you, it was really good to see you again. < Outro > Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in, for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.

Welcome to Count Me In, with your host, Adam Larson. In this episode, Adam is joined by Tim Hedley, the Executive in Residence at Fordham University and Shari Littan, Director, Corporate Reporting Research & Thought Leadership at IMA.  Join this thought-provoking discussion as they delve into the importance of internal controls, the evolving landscape of sustainability reporting, and the challenges and benefits organizations face in adopting sustainable business practices.Discover how the COSO framework, the gold standard for reliable reporting, has been adapted to include non-financial reporting objectives, aligning with the rise of sustainability and ESG reporting. Explore critical trends in the world of ESG reporting, from increasing regulations to stakeholder engagement and supply chain transparency.Learn from Tim and Shari as they share their insights on the challenges organizations face in implementing sustainable practices and balancing short-term profits with long-term sustainability goals. Understand the significance of internal controls in providing a basis for external assurance and building stakeholder trust in reported information.Join Tim and Shari for a live event Nov 30 - Dec 1 in NYC. Register todayFull Episode Transcript:< Intro > Adam:            Welcome to another episode of Count Me In. In today's episode, joining us are two guest experts. Tim Hedley, who is Executive-in-Residence at Fordham University, and Shari Littan, Director, Corporate Reporting, Research and Thought Leadership at IMA. Our discussion revolves around the importance of internal controls and sustainability reporting. And how they enhance trust, accountability, and reliability of the reported information.  Tim and Shari share insights from the COSO framework. Which was developed to help improve confidence in all types of data and information. The landscape of sustainability reporting is constantly evolving, with shifting regulatory requirements and increased stakeholder expectations. We explore crucial trends; such as the focus on materiality and risk assessments, stakeholder engagement, supply chain transparency, and evolving reporting metrics. Let's get started, with this enlightening conversation.  < Music > Adam:            Shari, Tim, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We're really excited to be talking about COSO, internal control, and everything in that whole ESG world. But just for our listeners, who may be unfamiliar, you could've, probably, have heard the term COSO, or ICSR, and those things before, but maybe you're not familiar with those terms. Maybe, Shari, you could take a little bit of time and define, maybe, a high-level overview of what COSO is, the significant, internal control framework, and the purpose of the new documents. Shari:             I'd be happy to, thanks, Adam, it's great to be here. So COSO stands for Committee of Sponsoring Organizations and it came about in the late 1980s. It is a collaboration of five accountancy and auditing organizations. There's the American Accounting Association, which is an academic organization, primarily. AICPA, everyone is familiar. IMA, where we sit, and we primarily focus on the accountants and finance professionals in business, the in-house folks are ours. Institute of Internal Auditors, and FEI, Financial Executives International. So those five organizations make up COSO. COSO came about in the late 1980s, amid what was then the savings and loans crisis, and there was concern that the profession needed to do better. That we were starting to see major accounting failures, disclosure, litigation, regulation, questions. Are we doing the right things in the profession?" So the five accountancy organizations got together, and they said, "How are we going to resolve this? How are we going to promote trust and accountability in what we do, as a profession?" The focus became on this concept of internal controls, which we'll get to.  So in '92, after that, the COSO, as an organization, produced its first internal control framework. And then we can move forward to 1990s, late 1990s, 2000, the Enron, WorldCom's era, which led to Sarbanes-Oxley. And Sarbanes-Oxley, rather than looking at the substance of what a company needs to disclose, again, looked at the idea of governance process, auditing, and said, "In order to produce financial reports to the markets, you need to focus on your systems and your controls. You need management to speak to it, in your reporting system. You need auditors to address controls." We had the PCAOP. So we have this Sarbanes-Oxley, which created this idea of internal controls over financial reporting. And, although, Sarbanes Oxley didn't specifically say, "You must use the COSO framework." It was considered the best thing around, and it's become the gold standard in how to produce reliable financial or corporate reporting in more general. Now, in 2013, the framework was refreshed, we got a new internal control framework. And what it did, in the 2013 refresh, is it added the idea of non-financial reporting objectives. That was around the same time, about 10 years ago, when we started to see all kinds of sustainability integrated, ESG, reporting frameworks. And, so, though not express, what the framework did, in its refresh, was say "Yes, this is completely applicable to these types of activities and reporting." And, so, that leads us to where we are, today. Where, earlier, in 2023 we issued the internal control over sustainability reporting publication. And what the authors did, in that publication, was we looked at the existing internal control framework and said, "Okay, now we're seeing an acceleration of ESG or sustainability reporting and activities, performance and activities.  And that means we need good information, and that means we need quality information and transparency. Let's look at the COSO Internal Control Framework, and see how we can interpret it and apply it to these new forms of reporting. Adam:            Shari, I think that's a great overview. And, as you mentioned, there's the ever evolving nature of this new type of non-financial reporting, ESG reporting. There are shifts in regulatory compliance. We were just speaking before we started recording how this could change, or that could change, or this regulatory body can make a statement, at this moment, at this time, how this is constantly changing.  And, Tim, maybe, I'll ask you, how do you see this landscape changing? And what should organizations be, particularly, aware of, especially, with the ever evolving nature and things constantly moving? Tim:               Well, Adam, thank you, and thank you for having me here. The sustainability reporting landscape has rapidly changed, particularly, recently, to meet stakeholder expectation, and government regulations. And, Adam, your question could be an entire podcast, or a big section of this podcast if we had that kind of time, but I do see some critical trends, just some of the ones, from my perspective.  I mean, many people are out there, I'm sure Shari's got all kinds of ideas of what those trends might be. But there are some that just come to mind, for me. I think the biggest one that I think about a lot, and certainly what I experience in the classroom, and then talking to people who are in the field of sustainability reporting, some of the people I work with in different contexts, I think the first one is increasing regulation.Regulatory bodies, worldwide, are increasing their focus on sustainability reporting. And, personally, I think we should expect ever more stringent reporting requirements. And an interesting case in point, I think, is under the new California Climate Corporate Data Accountability Act. U.S. companies with annual revenues of $1 billion or more, in the State of California, for report both their direct and indirect greenhouse gas emissions, in the next few years. I think that's a huge change and really indicative of the kinds of things that we can expect going forward.  I think next is, probably, increased investor pressure, I have no doubt about that. Institutional investors are placing more emphasis on sustainability factors, while making investment decisions. And, actually, I just saw an actual run of this, recently, last month, actually, they are employing very structured analysis using very detailed sustainability factors. So I think there's going to be more and more demand for increased disclosures, and that's not going to go away anytime soon. I think we're going to see more focus on meaningful materiality and risk assessments. People are paying a lot of attention to ensuring there are robust materiality and risk assessments, that identify and prioritize issues that are most relevant to businesses and to stakeholders. Stakeholder engagement will increasingly be more important.  Engaging with stakeholders now is critical, but, I think, it's only going to become ever more so, as we move through this process. There appears to be a much keener focus on greenwashing, and I, personally, think this is a huge problem for us. I think it's actually gotten to the point, where it seems that the perception of greenwashing is causing some pushback in this space and, actually, almost threatening the integrity of the effort. I think we're going to have to think a lot more about honest transparency, in this process. Do we want people to actually buy into this and trust the process, and the kinds of things, this year, I was just talking about? I think I'm leaning directly toward that notion of more honest transparency. I think there's going to be a greater focus on supply chain transparency. Particularly around human rights, DEI, environmental impact, all these kinds of things. I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg in this space. I think reporting, metrics will continue to change. The metrics that investors and stakeholders focus on are changing really fast. We are seeing a great deal of movement in the EU, in particular. For example, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, which went into effect this past January, it's extending the requirement to report on sustainability management from a select number of companies in the EU to nearly all companies in the EU. Except these little micro companies, I guess. So, again, a lot of movement here, a lot of stuff is changing. My bottom line, I mean, I could keep listing these things. But my bottom line is that sustainable reporting is dynamic, it's always changing, and, as professionals, we must stay informed about changes in regulations, investor perceptions, and societal expectations.Shari:             Can I add just one thing to what Tim said, and that is we tend to focus, or we have tended to focus, when we think about corporate reporting on public companies. Because naturally there are securities regulations both in the U.S. and in various jurisdictions around the world. But one thing that we are seeing in the world of sustainability, or ESG information, is that it is going to affect small and medium-sized companies. Maybe not direct corporate disclosure, but to their commercial customers into supply chain. We're actually seeing where a large public company, for example, has made net-zero commitments or other kind of commitments. And they talk about that in their public materials, and it goes into their ratings, et cetera. Well, they turn around and turn to their suppliers and say, "If you want to sell to us, we want your carbon footprint data. We want your modern slavery DE&I data. And we're seeing, in a positive way, in certain places, where the large commercial buyer is working along with the smaller suppliers. The component, the agricultural companies, to say, "Let's find ways that we can work together."  And it has become a competitive advantage for non-public companies to be able to say, "Not only can I deliver your components, but I can deliver your components along with quality information." We're seeing supplier audits in this area starting to come up, or industry collaborations where they're setting standards. So it's not only public companies to think about. Tim:               It's not just the public companies, because I've had conversations with a lot of organizations, they're asking for my help in responding to their customers. And if they're part of the supply chain, they will, certainly, have to disclose Scope 1, 2, & 3 emissions. Shari:             Exactly. Tim:               And one of the problems they have is they have no clue, what in the world that company is talking about. They don't even know what the starting point is. We're talking about internal controls over sustainability reporting, this is wonderful stuff. But if you're a small organization, that's never even heard of this space, that has no idea how to report. A lot more education is going to be necessary for that upstream and downstream indirect emissions providers. I've had people call me up and say, "They're asking, now, my employees, how far do they drive to work? What kind of a car do they drive?" And all of these kinds of things, and it's very confusing for, in particular Scope 1, Scope 3, emissions information providers. Like "How in the world do I capture this stuff?" And, Shari, you're absolutely right, large organizations can't get where they want to get to with their reporting, unless the entire value chain comes on board. Adam:            That makes a lot of sense, and there's going to be so much pressure from the consumers and regulatory bodies. And I can imagine it's overwhelming for any organization. Maybe somebody is listening to this and saying, "I know I need to do something." And, so, maybe, we can define what some of the benefits are to organizations and some advantages, if they can apply the sustainability business, the internal control integrated framework, to their organization.Shari:             Well, I will say that, first of all, one of the great benefits of looking to the COSO framework, or ICSR as we're referring to it in shorthand, is that we already know how to do a lot of this. We have the ability to leverage what we already know about building good governance systems, and controls, and processes, and oversight into our company systems, and looking at the information flow. We can train, think about training our board, and our members, but we already have a lot of the tools, and the know-how to address the concerns. It's not as esoteric or new, it really can be rooted in what we already do. Second, another great benefit is that, although, we think about COSO Internal Control with respect to external financial reporting. When you actually get into the framework, it is enterprise wide, it is holistic.  If you want good reporting, well, then, you need good information, and that means you are tracking your activities, and what your company is doing. And if the company is taking steps to actually become more sustainable in their performance. Of how they source energy, and how they human resources, and take care of waste, and all of those things. So it runs throughout an entire organization.  And the thing that I find is that when you think about it holistically, you start with the concept of purpose. So if you look at the publication, you look at the framework, you look at principle one, a commitment to ethical behavior, of being a good corporate citizen. And what is your purpose?  Why does your company or organization exist in the world?  What are you aiming to achieve? Why should all of your investors, and stakeholders, and employees, stay with you?  What are they going to get out of this; with respect to performance, and activities, and returns? So it leverages a reexamination, it leads to a reexamination, I should say. Why does our organization exist?  What are we doing, and are we doing these things efficiently? Are we doing them effectively? When I first started writing this publication, when I was tapped to become part of the authorship team. I said, "Internal controls and sustainability, well, that feels a little apples and oranges, to me." But, in fact, it's really about focusing on goals. It's focusing on purpose, and objectives, and how the company achieves those, and the information that it uses to decide how it's going to use these resources. Tim:               And I think I'll add something because I thought that was a great explanation by Shari. The bottom line is, from my perspective, I think the framework we're dancing or advocating and what has been put together with respect to internal control and sustainable reporting, it's comprehensive. It has widespread acceptance, it focuses correctly, in my belief, on risk management. It's very adaptable. When I read the publication that Shari co-authored, it's absolutely adaptable. We had with the internal control, the Internal Control Integrated Framework, absolutely adaptable, and it works perfectly here. And, really, most importantly, it has absolute global applicability Shari:             Yes, when I hear Tim say that global applicability is that there are so many regulators, and policymakers, and standard setters, and all sorts of organizations that are saying, "Here's what you need to report." It's a lot on the what to report, but this gives a framework of method of how. Tim:               Yes, and it does a good job with that. Adam:            I think you've given a great explanation about all the advantages and how it benefits. But I can't imagine that it's an easy process, and there are got to be challenges that people can encounter along the way. Maybe we can discuss a few of those challenges, to help people feel at ease. Tim:               When I was thinking through this, you can talk about some of the challenges. But, I think, it might make sense to talk about what some of the benefits are before we got to the challenges, perhaps, because I found that significant. I think the first, at least, from my perspective, the first benefit is enhanced reputation. A commitment to a purpose-driven business can enhance an organization's reputation, there's very little doubt about that. And there's a fair amount to thought leadership research, and surveys, and what have you, that support what I just said. If you look at GM, you look at Procter & Gamble, those are great examples of companies, in their sustainability report that have detailed their corporate purpose in very explicit ways, and easy to read, and make a lot of sense. And really I tell you in this space, there's been a paradigm shift. From just being a shareholder-first mentality, to say, "Hey, well, you know what, there are a lot of stakeholders." I think through this process you can gain a competitive advantage. Gain business practices, it can help recruit, and retain talent, just for one example. They can foster innovation. They can lead to development of new products and services. Think about electric vehicles, think about solar, think about power storage. These are all kinds of industries that we were not even really thinking much about not that many years ago, at least, not in a serious way. They can provide access to new markets and opportunities. And one thing I found very important, certainly, as my work over the last 25 years in the governance space and what have you, I can go a long way to increasing stakeholder trust and engagements. It can also have significant cost savings. Case in point is 3M's, 3Ps-Pollution Prevention Pays.And if you look at a sustainability report you'll see that, "Hey, this has saved billions of dollars since its inception." And they do a good job now of highlighting it, even though this was before we were really talking about sustainability, and ESG, and these things, and they were on top of some of the stuff. Risk mitigation, sustainable practice if well executed, it can mitigate environmental, social, and governance risk, ESG risks. It can help avoid costly reputational damage, integrity breakdowns, governmental scrutiny, fines and penalties, all kinds of benefits. Help provide access to capital, companies that demonstrate strong sustainable performance. Can often find it easier to access capital from socially responsible investors and from institutions that prioritize sustainable investments. Can lead to long-term value creation by producing a more stable and sustainable business model, less risk, and what I would say are higher valuations. And I think that's the greatest selling point for, actually, doing this stuff in a very serious way. It really is all about long-term value creation. And, of course, finally, I would say it can differentiate your brand. If you embrace sustainability and corporate purpose, you can distinguish yourself from competitors and build a brand that resonates with your consumers. Remember, it's all about the consumers in the end. There are some challenges which you had mentioned earlier, when we talked about it earlier. I think one of the biggest ones, the initial investment costs for sustainable products and efforts can be very expensive. Perhaps beyond the grasp of some, but well worth the investment for many. Understanding shifting consumer preferences is not always straightforward. Encouraging consumers to choose sustainable options over conventional ones can be slow and a challenging journey. Sometimes these sustainable options are perceived, sometimes, as being more expensive. Regulatory compliance can be demanding. It may require continuous adjustments to business operations. Clients with changing environmental regulations and standards can require continuous adjustments to your business operations. Which may pose significant operational challenges. Another big one is balancing short-term and long-term objectives it's often tricky. Organizations may, counter a lot of pressure to prioritize immediate profits over long-term sustainability, creating both internal and external pressure. And some may, I'm afraid, think you have to sacrifice one for the other. And, Adam, I don't buy into that, I don't believe that. But a lot of people do believe that, it's an either/or kind of thing. There are significant resource limitations above and beyond the budget I mentioned earlier. Things like renewable energy sources, sometimes, are hard to find. Sourcing sustainable materials can be really difficult, not to mention human resources and talent acquisition can be very difficult. Complex global operations are challenging. Multinationals might face headwinds in implementing uniform sustainability standards across diverse regulatory environments, cultural norms, socio-economic situations. Further global supply chains are incredibly complex. Much more so than domestic organizations, and requires a great deal of collaboration to make this work. And, then, finally, in this area, I would say the greenwashing concerns, we kind of touched upon it earlier. But with the focus on sustainability, there is a risk of an organization engaging in greenwashing. Where they make misleading claims about the environmental benefits of their products or operations. Such practices can lead to reputational damage and loss of trust among stakeholders.  I know I've talked twice about greenwashing, but it is a huge problem. And it really is undermining a lot of the good efforts taking place in this area. So to help ensure long-term viability and success, I think it's important to develop a comprehensive strategy that aligns sustainability goals with the overall corporate purpose. Shari:             Listening to Tim, I'm reminded of a story that was shared with me a few years ago, now. It was my colleague in an agricultural company. And, of course, the questions came to them about carbon footprint, "Are you measuring greenhouse gases, et cetera?"  And, so, they started to do that measurement, the inventory, instituting their processes. And in doing that what they discovered is a huge waste of water because they were looking at how they produce and operate in a more holistic, as you say, totality.  And, so, in trying to quantify and measure their carbon footprint they ended up changing their entire system of water and reduced it by a lot. So they ended up having gains, by extension, to new streams of information, that they hadn't been looking at before. Tim:               It really is an exercise in navel-gazing, looking deep inside yourself, to actually do this stuff. And it's not an easy process, but that's a great example of where there are all kinds of benefits, well, and it's unintended benefits, from actually going through this process, and a lot of discovery takes place. You learn a lot about yourself. Adam:            It really sounds like you can learn a lot. And I think you've kind of illustrated, my last question was going to be around, how does this framework play a crucial role in ensuring effective governance, and rules, and internal control systems. Especially, concerning sustainable business practices, and what you just displayed there, Shari, for us, was a great example of that. And if there are any other examples you guys can share, I think that would be really helpful, and encouraging as people are thinking about this and looking at it. Because it's inevitable that it will be affecting every organization. Shari:             Yes, here's another example that I thought of, when you're getting more into the risk and the overall reasons, to think about sustainable business. But I do remember if you drive along highways now, how often do you see charging stations. In fact, I saw, not far from where I live, a former gas station had completely changed into an electric vehicle station. And I thought somebody else in that supply chain, if you create fuel pumps, you might want to think about changing that business model, and that's what the information can bring forward. Tim:               Yes, earlier I had mentioned that notion of a robust, risk, and materiality assessment. And just adding on to what Shari was saying, I had a conversation not long ago with a tire manufacturer. So they were doing deep dives and taking it very seriously. But they started understanding things that were hugely important and material, they'd never thought about before. For example, when you drive down the road, your tread wears out of your tire. You don't think about, "Where does that rubber go?" Maybe it goes in the atmosphere, it goes on the street, it goes on the side of the road. And suddenly, wow, they're materiality mapping and that process is hugely dynamic. The risk assessment is dynamic, and I think people are looking for that dynamic approach to these kinds of things. You can be an energy company just delivering electricity for a municipality, and suddenly you start getting into solar panels. And, suddenly, "Wow, we got new risk, where are they sourced? Where is this stuff coming from? What does that supply chain look like?" So a lot of interesting things that actually pop out of going through this process. And a lot of it leads to much better decisions and also uncovering important things and cost savings, it's all there. Adam:            Tim, Shari, do you have any final thoughts for our audience? Shari:             Well, as we wrap up, I want to just bring it back to why the internal control, and the COSO framework, and that publication, in thinking about all these new types of activities and new types of information, that has risk associated with it. And there are business risks, but there are also risks in the information. For example, we talk about supply chain, so in order to account for Scope 1, not Scope 1 because that's your data. But Scope 2 and Scope 3, you, by definition, need to get information that doesn't come from your system that you're responsible for, it has to come from a third party. So there's risk in that information. So we need to think about other controls. We need to think about affiliates, or other investees, or companies that we outsource to, that we used to consider immaterial for financial reporting purposes, but now we need their information. Green Bonds, is another, where we're affirming to our lender that we are in compliance with certain ESG metrics and then they lower our interest rate, that's informational risk.  We also have the risk of estimation and expectations, and how we measure prospective assumptions and leads to that kind of reporting. I think that's really huge because so much of sustainability reporting, including some of the mandatory disclosure requirements coming out of Europe, double materiality, impact accounting, it means estimating the future. That's what sustainability is all about. Do we have the resources made available to us in the future? Can we count on that?  Are stakeholders willing to make those available? So, anyway, it goes to the question of estimating the future, which makes many, in traditional accounting, uncomfortable. They don't like to disclose and report on the future and our assumptions. But that's a necessary part of creating the measurement techniques in order to effectuate all these new demands, for reporting all these new KPIs. What I'm saying is that by following what we already know how to do, By leveraging the frameworks that we already have, it can highlight and help direct us address the innovative areas, the information, the use of digital technology, perhaps, to bring this about in a reliable way, and avoid the greenwashing that Tim has highlighted for us. Tim:               Yes, I think the things that you talked about resonate with a lot of things we talked about earlier. Those things are all about long-term value creation. Shari:             Agreed, absolutely. Tim:               You got to be thinking about the future. And, also, one of the things that I see from the work you've done here and the internal controls of sustainability reporting. I think it's going to go a long way to helping with the notion of external assurance of this information. Because now we'll have internal controls in place that make some sense, that can be tested in and of themselves, it gives a lot more confidence in what's being reported. Because stakeholders are going to take some of this stuff with a grain of salt. Unless someone actually opines it, "Hey, wow, you know what they're telling you it seems accurate enough. It's doing what it's supposed to do."  I think that's going to be a huge underpinning for the document we've been discussing here. Because I think it's going to go a long way to enabling that. And unless you have that third-party attestation, the trust may not be there until we get to that point. I don't know, that's just my prediction. Adam:            Well, I appreciate you guys sharing your final thoughts and sharing all your insights with our audience, today. And thanks so much, again, for coming on the podcast. Shari:             Thanks so much, Adam. Tim, it's been a pleasure.  < Outro > Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders, from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting in finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imainet.org.

Welcome to the Count Me In podcast with your host Adam Larson and special guest Dan DeGolier! In this episode, Adam and Dan, founder and CEO of Ascent CFO Solutions, dive into the fascinating world of AI and its application in the finance and accounting sectors. Discover how AI is enhancing efficiency and reducing errors, while also exploring the potential challenges and ethical considerations it presents. Join us as we explore the evolving landscape of AI in fractional leadership. Tune in now for an engaging discussion you won't want to miss!Full Episode Transcript: Adam:            Welcome back for another exciting episode of Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson, and today we have a special guest joining us, Dan DeGolier. The founder and CEO of Ascent CFO Solutions. We start off by exploring current use cases of AI in the industry. Such as coding transactions and streamlining forecasting processes.  But as Dan points out, we're only scratching the surface of what AI can do. The potential for growth and efficiency is immense. But it's important to proceed with caution and be aware of the biases and ethical considerations that come along with it.  Throughout this episode we highlight the evolving role of finance and accounting professionals, in the age of AI, and how they can adapt to leverage its benefits. From bookkeepers, to CFOs, to fractional CFOs, AI has the power to enhance efficiency and transform the way we approach financial management. So grab your headphones, and join us as we uncover the exciting world of AI in accounting. Let's dive in. < Music > Well, Dan, we're so excited to have you on the podcast today, as we're going to talk about AI and fractional leadership. And just to get started, as we think about AI, how is it currently being applied to finance and accounting sectors? Obviously, it does things like enhance efficiency and reduce errors, but how is it being applied in those areas?  Dan:                Yes, thanks for having me on, Adam. It's a pleasure to meet you, pleasure to be here. I think we're just getting started, for one thing. AI, even though it's been around for a while, ChatGPT, GPT 4, and all those things, are relatively new to the mainstream. And, so, a lot of this stuff we're just starting to figure out right now.  Definitely, in the accounting side, we're starting to see some use cases for coding transactions and things like that. I think there are a lot of opportunities in our world, in the finance realm. When it comes to forecasting, to be able to streamline multiple scenarios and make iterations to financial models and forecasts.  I think that's an area that we're starting to see develop. And, then, things like pricing strategy and looking at different ways to price and run different scenarios around that. Using large language models, and data, and being able to bring in data and run multiple scenarios and see what things look like there. I think those are all some areas that we're starting to see.  But, honestly, because it's so early, what is really going to be the biggest use cases, two years from now, is probably something we haven't thought of. Or somebody's thought of but hasn't really been implemented, yet. Adam:            Yes, that's a great point, that we're so early in the generative AI phase that some organizations are adapting quickly, other ones aren't. And software companies are trying to integrate it into there but it's still in the early phases. So our traditional role- Dan:                And it's still prone to errors as well. Adam:            Exactly. Dan:                Yes, we've all read the articles about the lawyer who tried to use it for briefs and got in huge trouble, and the hallucinations are still rampant. So I think proceed with caution, but recognize that it has enormous potential and don't be left behind.  I was going to say, I've heard that it's been compared to if you look at Web 1.0, the emergence of the Internet, and commercial use, that this could be a 10x-type of opportunity. From a growth potential, from an efficiency potential, et cetera, it's just fascinating to me, just how massive this could be, and how life-changing this is. Adam:            Well, and also the bias that's implicit in there, in the AI. Because there are so many biases among how people think, wording, that's out there in the Internet and how it's learning. There's going to be that bias that you have to get over as well. Because it's going to be embedded in there because of how it is societally. Dan:                Correct, yes, I agree with that. I think one other ethical consideration that needs to be taken into account, when you're implementing AI, is things around copyright infringement, and intellectual property, and protection there. I think the chatbots aren't necessarily aware of what's IP and protected and what's not.  And, so, it's important that we take into that, that there's a human overseeing that, and making sure that there's nothing being taken out of context or being utilized improperly. And along the same lines, research is another area. Tax research and other types of accounting research is a place where there is a lot of use cases for AI.  But, again, this is where you need to be very careful around trusting that research and validating that it is accurate. So we don't end up in a situation, where something that's not valid is being utilized. Adam:            It's going to be very difficult to understand what has been verified and what hasn't, and as you're doing research and as you're looking at things online. I imagine new tools are going to have to be developed to verify, "Yes, this is valid." Or "No, it's not." And how do you trust those as you go forward? Dan:                Yes, that's really important, and there are going to be mistakes made. As we start to adopt this, we're going to see mistakes being made. And, as humans, we need to learn from our mistakes and learn from others' mistakes, that's how we evolve. Adam:            Mh-hmm. Do you think that the traditional roles in finance and accounting are going to change because of these? I mean, obviously, they are. But how can we adapt as we go forward? Dan:                Yes, I think, first thing I would suggest is pay attention to what's going on, see what's evolving, see where things are taking it. I think it's going to definitely change the accounting side, the day-to-day transactional stuff. There's a YouTuber out there, Hector Garcia, who has done some demos of how you can plug in a ChatGPT tool into QuickBooks Online, and how that can help ease the coding of transactions and things like that. So it's definitely going to change that bookkeeper and junior accountant role significantly, I think it'll change all aspects. The CFO's desk, it's going to still require somebody with experience, and knowledge, and understanding, to validate what's coming out of it. Just like in any other industry, there's a lot of need to confirm, and double-check, and be heavily involved at that strategic level. But I think it'll make us more efficient. Adam:            Yes, I definitely agree with that. And as you're talking about things like analysis and looking at it from that higher level. I mean, obviously, the AI has a better computing power, but we still need that human element. And how does that traditional human analysis going to affect, as we look at the output from the AI? Dan:                Yes, that it's still going to be critical. Machines are going to do a lot of the analysis and it'll find pattern. It's better at pattern recognition than us, especially. with large data sets. But when it comes back to that human element of truly understanding, and the uniqueness of certain things, it's going to require a human element.  In preparation for this call, I was thinking a lot about fraud detection, and you got large data sets out there. I think, again, back to pattern recognition, AI can be really good at identifying things that stand out and look unusual. I mean, if you think about, maybe, purchase orders or sales orders that look unusual.  Maybe have overrides from managers and they can look for patterns there, where particular users, within an accounting system or ERP system, might see that something that a particular manager might tend to override things more often. Or looking at addresses, and zip codes, and understanding if there might be some inappropriate payments made that match up to addresses, vendors matchup to employee addresses or things like that. So that could be bogus, that could be fraudulent.  I think those things are going to be a huge area for auditors, both, internal and external auditors starting to use those data sets. Where that AI tool can go in and start digging around and finding some unusual patterns.  Adam:            Yes, and thinking about implementing AI, within your organization, if you're really considering this, you've done all the research. What are some challenges or ethical considerations that should be addressed, when implementing it? Dan:                The first thing that comes to mind is security. Right now, I've been reading some things that we're trying to be able to bring it inside your intranet, bring in those tools inside your internet. But you don't want to have breaches of data, things that go out, where the chatbot is getting a hold of your corporate data and then utilizing that in the greater universe. And, so, that's going to be really critical, is that we solve for security concerns where things stay within the four walls very clearly. That's the first thing that comes to mind.  And I think the other one is touched on earlier, which is just trusting it too much and seeing that something that comes out of it is just trustworthy, as opposed to really validating it. Whether that's research around case law, when it comes to tax law, or whether it has to do with... Just what comes out of a financial model, and what's practical from a pipeline perspective and things like that, when you're forecasting your financials. Adam:            Yes, so as we look to the future, when it comes to AI. What are some of the breakthroughs that you think will happen within the finance and accounting industry, as we look to the future with AI? Dan:                Automation, in general, and that can take multiple forms. We touched on the accounting coding of transactions and things like that, I think that's a big part of it. There can be a lot more automation around all of the accounting cycles. Whether it be payroll, invoicing, accounts payable, there can be a tremendous amount of automation on that side.  Variance analysis when it comes to your soft close of the books, your initial review of a month-end close. I think there can definitely be an analysis and digging in a transaction, and looking for those variances to prior periods variances, to budget variances, to forecast, and pulling those out. So I think there can be some automation around that. And, then, again, on the financial modeling piece, the forecast piece, there will be automation there as well. Adam:            So one area of expertise that you have a lot of expertise in, is the fractional leadership, the fractional executive, and especially the fractional CFO. And as we're talking about AI and the changing of how that CFO looks. How do you see the ability to have this AI as a fractional CFO? How does that really enhance your ability to help the organizations, that you're within that fractional capacity? Dan:                Yes, well at our firm, we're technology first, and we've always been focused on automation where we can. So I think for us, it's going to be those same types of approaches. Where we find ways to be more efficient, to be more cost-effective, to really implement these tools. Identify the best use cases for these tools, kind of trust but verify. Make sure that you still got that adult supervision, with that AI tool. But really leaning into it and making it a tool that speeds up data for the C-suite.  The faster you can close your books, the faster you can update your model, the faster you can make adjustments. When you see something change with your pipeline, I think, more agile executive team can act. Adam:            So when you're coming in as a fractional executive, a lot of times the best place for that model is an organization in transition. And, so, that's what I've been reading when I've had other conversations. It seems like it's organizations that are in transition, and when you're in that transition, it seems like you would be looking at all your systems. But how do you come in and say, "Hey, I want to have this technology first and utilize these tools." But they have never used those before. How do you bridge that gap? Dan:                Yes, it's an incremental process. I mean, when we look at working with a company, they are often going through a transition. Maybe, they're looking to raise an additional round of capital. They've recently raised another round of capital. They've got a new board reporting requirements. They need better discipline when it comes to forecasting their cash flow.  So if they're a little behind the 8-ball, when it comes to technology, it's going to be incremental steps. You first have to get a really solid ERP, or accounting system in place that is trustworthy and fully GAAP. Whether they're audited or not, you want them to be fully on accrual GAAP basis.  Once you have that, then, you start to put in place those data visualization tools. That's something we've been leaning into really heavily the last year or two, is creating really robust dashboards and data visualization, that not only show your historical financials, but your forecast, and your HR, and your payroll, and your sales pipeline. And, so, those technologies first need to have really reliable actuals, before you can lean heavily into some of the other newer technologies, and more robust technologies. Adam:            That makes me think of how important it is to have good data. Because you don't want to have garbage in, then, it'll just be garbage out. So you have to really make sure your data is in a good spot. Dan:                You don't even want to start to forecast or implement those better tools until your historicals are accurate, for sure. And it's not just plain GAAP financials, it's also what your KPIs look like. What are the real drivers of your business? And that's one of the things we look at when we come into a new client, is really take the time to look at the true drivers of the business.  They may not be obvious at first, every company is a little bit different. What's driving their growth, and their revenue, and their cash flow. So we really lean into that. And, so, we'll often start with what we call an assessment phase. We'll spend 20 to 40 hours just really digging in deep, to understand every component of the business. Adam:            Do you think that all businesses would benefit from some a fractional executive coming in and relooking at things? A lot of times people bring in consultants to do that. But it's just like they look at everything, give you a PowerPoint, and head out the door. But that fractional seems to be like that person who partners with you for a period of time. Dan:                Yes, definitely, our model is based on long-term but part-time. So we're, generally, looking at companies in the SMB market. So, generally, we work with companies between 2 million and 100 million in revenue.  And, so, as that company scales, some companies are too quick to hire a full-time CFO. Where they might really just need a full-time controller, a really solid controller, and an accounting team. And, then, a fractional CFO for a couple of days a week, who's extremely well qualified and very experienced, could be a great fit for them. To bring in that true executive-level oversight, with decades of experience, to help them navigate, again, what those critical KPIs are. Where the holes are and the different strategies that are being considered and things like that.  So, yes, companies that are worth 75 or 100 million very likely to have a full-time CFO, a very qualified CFO. But companies under 75 million or depending upon the transaction complexity, and transaction volume, companies that are small and medium-sized businesses can really benefit from having a top-notch CFO on their team. But it may not need to be a 40-hour or 60-hour-a-week job. It can maybe be a 20-hour-a-week type of engagement. Adam:            So you get that full-time experience, that experienced person there. But you may not, necessarily, be able to afford the salary that would require to have that person on full-time. Dan:                Yes, and there may not be enough, truly strategic, CFO-level work for that person, that you need to have someone on a full-time basis. That's what our whole model is based on. As you grow and evolve, you get the resources you need on a fractional basis.  Our team is CFOs, and VPs of Finance, and controllers, accounting managers, financial analysts, senior accountants. So we've got a full stack of people with different levels of experience, who can come in and support a company during its growth phases, and you pay for what you need. As opposed to having a real heavy fixed cost on your G&A budget, G&A financials. Adam:            Yes, that seems like a really good benefit, especially, for the small to medium-sized businesses. Is it beneficial for a startup? If a startup is just getting going; as an entrepreneur, is it good to bring in fractional folks, or do you think full-time would be more beneficial? Dan:                Yes, fractional makes a lot of sense for an early-stage company. I look at as a step function. You start out maybe you just need a part-time accountant to make sure things are being coded properly. Once you have revenue and you're ready to raise around the capital, then, you probably want a strategic fractional CFO or VP of finance, who can help you with that capital fundraise, help you with a really robust financial model, and understanding what your KPIs and drivers are.  And, then, over time, you start to fill in some of those roles on a full-time basis, as you get a growth cycle. So it's not uncommon, maybe, you start with a fractional senior accountant and a little bit of oversight, from a fractional controller. And then that evolves into one or two full-time accountants and, then, a fractional CFO, and, then, eventually, you get a full-time controller, and it just builds as you go up the ladder in revenue, and fundraising. Adam:            So this does not have to do with fractional CFO. But I want to throw this question out there and you feel free to answer it or not. But do you think that the evolution of AI will help bridge the gap between US GAAP and IFRS, to make it a more international accounting standard? Dan:                I think it definitely has potential to. I think that there's logic in the way that things like RevRec and other things are being handled, between IFRS and US GAAP. So, I think, there's definitely some good potential there. Adam:            Yes, I don't know. Because I just feel like as we become a more global world and how we would do business and everything. It would make more sense to have a globally recognized accounting standard, so that everybody's doing the same, has the same standards that they live up to. Obviously different countries have different beliefs and stuff like that, but it would make sense for us to think globally. Dan:                Yes, I like that. I hadn't given that a lot of thought before, but that does make a lot of sense to me. Adam:            Mh-hmm, well, Dan, I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great talking with you. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise with our audience. Dan:                My pleasure Adam. Really it was fun to meet you and fun to discuss these emerging technologies with you. < Outro > Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders, from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting in finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imainet.org.  

This was certainly an episode with a difference - we begin in a Natural History Museum packed with 4,000 taxidermy animals! The Woodland Trust site and museum now share space once owned by the famous Rothschild family who collected stuffed species, as well as live exotic animals that roamed the park. We tour Tring Park's fascinating historic features, from the avenue named after visitor Charles II to the huge stone monument rumoured to be for his famous mistress. Beneath autumn-coloured boughs, we also learn how young lime trees grown from the centuries-old lime avenue will continue the site's history, how cows help manage important chalk grassland and the vital role of veteran trees and deadwood in the healthy ecosystem. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Today I'm heading off to Tring Park, one of Hertfordshire's most important ecological areas. It's filled, I'm told, with wildflowers and some really interesting historic features, as well as some stunning views. But first but first, I was told to stop off at the Natural History Museum at Tring, which is really a very, very short walk from the woodland itself. I was told to do that because they said it might surprise you what you find. It definitely did that. Because here are rows and rows of what I'm told are historically important stuffed animals. So I'm at the the top bit of the the galleries here at the Natural History Museum at Tring and well, bonkers I think is a probably good word to describe this place and I mean, I feel very mixed about it. So we're, I'm passing some very weird fish, that's a louvar, never heard of that. But there's a a rhinoceros, white rhinoceros, a Sumatran rhinoceros. There's a dromedary, a camel. There is a rather small giraffe. There is a head of a giraffe. Coming round over here, there is an Indian swordfish from the Indian Ocean. Goodness gracious, it looks like something from Harry Potter. That's an eel, very scary looking eel. And then there is a giant armadillo and it really properly is giant, an extinct relative of the living armadillos, known from the Pleistocene era and that's the period of the Ice Age, from North and South America, that is absolutely extraordinary. And there are some very, very weird things around here. Anyway, that's certainly not something you'd expect to see in Tring. Goodness knows what the locals made of it back in the Victorian ages, of course this would have been their only experience of these kind of animals. No Internet, no television, so this really was an amazing insight into the world, beyond Britain, beyond Tring. There is something here, a deep sea anglerfish which looks like it's got coral out of its chin. I mean, it's properly something from a horror movie that is, that is extraordinary. Claire: My name is Claire Walsh and I'm the exhibitions and interpretation manager here at the Natural History Museum at Tring, and my job involves looking after all of the exhibitions that you see on display and any temporary exhibitions such as Wildlife Photographer of the Year. Adam: So this is a rather unusual place. I have only just had a very brief look and I've never seen anything quite like it. So just explain to our listeners what it is that we're seeing, what what is this place? Claire: So the Natural History Museum at Tring is the brainchild of Lionel Walter Rothschild, who was a member of the Rothschild banking dynasty. Walter Rothschild, as as we call him, was gifted the museum by his parents as a 21st birthday present. Adam: That's quite a birthday, who gets a museum for their 21st? That's quite something. Claire: Yes, yeah, so, so the family were a hugely wealthy family and Walter's parents owned Tring Park Mansion, which is the the the the big house next door to the museum, which is now a performing arts school, the land of which was formerly a a big deer park, and the Woodland Trust land and our museum is all part of that sort of estate. Adam: And so this is a Natural History Museum. But as I was saying, it's not like when I've seen normally. So explain to me what it is that differentiates this from other museums people might be acquainted with. Claire: So we have over 4,000 taxidermied animals on display from all over the world, some of the finest examples of Victorian taxidermy in the world and you can see everything on display from dressed fleas all the way through to wallabies, large deers, birds from all over the world. It really is an absolutely amazing place. Adam: I've never heard of the species called dressed fleas. Is that a species or is it fleas which have got frocks on? Claire: So these are fleas that have little outfits on so our our particular dressed fleas have little sombreros. They're from Mexico dressed fleas. We're very fortunate to have them on display and they're they are some of the most popular things in the museum. Adam: *laughs* Extraordinary. Yeah, I'll go stop and have a look at those. Now, but there was, am I right in saying that that Walter Rothschild in the sort of posh manor, actually had weird animals rolling around, these aren't just stuffed animals, you know, live weird animals, unusual animals, just part of the park? Claire: Yeah, so to take you back a little bit, Walter Rothschild first became really interested in natural history when he was about 7 and and he then decided to set up the museum. So throughout his teenage years, he started collecting different animals, living and dead. And the park at Tring was home to a lot of the animals so in in the park were lots and lots of living animals that he he kind of just kept there roaming free, so he had things like rheas, cassowaries, ostriches, emus, kangaroos. Adam: I, I've seen a picture, I think I've seen a picture of him in a sort of horse drawn carriage, except it's drawn by zebras. Claire: Yeah, so so he decided to train zebras to draw his carriage. So he started off with one zebra and then sort of moved on to having three zebras and a and a pony and he actually took the carriage along Regent Street all the way through the mall in London to Buckingham Palace where where the zebras met the Queen, which was a bit sort of worrying for Rothschild because actually zebras are really difficult to train and quite flighty sort of animals so he's a bit worried about the Queen petting his zebras and and something going wrong, but fortunately it was all fine. The zebras did come out to Tring when they retired as well, so they were also sort of roaming about. I think what you need to imagine is Tring at the time was a really kind of provincial country town, there was a lot farming going on and the Rothschilds came with this, massive amounts of wealth, but they really embedded themselves within the local community and and did lots of, you know, really helped people out. But Walter then started introducing all these animals into the park. He was really interested in adaptation of of different species of animals, so he actually rented out the island of Alhambra in the Seychelles to protect the giant tortoises, but also in Tring you have all of these different exotic animals from all around the world and I can't imagine what it must have been like to just be an ordinary agricultural labourer living in Tring and having the opportunity to walk through the park and just se all these amazing animals that you wouldn't have had the opportunity to see because there's no television. Adam: It's a really interesting back story to it, but I wonder what you feel about the purpose of the museum and this collection now, when there's a sense I already feel a bit uncomfortable going, is this quite right to be watching stuffed animals, is this in keeping with our modern sensibilities? What's your view on that? Claire: So our mission really is to educate people about biodiversity and to to ensure that our future generations become advocates for the planet. So we do this by, you know, trying to instil the importance and the wonder and beauty of nature within our collections and tell people about the things that are vanishing. We have lots of extinct and endangered animals on display, which we highlight to our visitors and and you know, to try and get them to understand that they need to look after the natural world today, and obviously our collections are incredibly scientifically important. We have researchers come from all over the world to visit Tring and to study their collections and you know, really make a difference to to our planet in terms of understanding how populations of animals have increased or decreased through time. You know, sort of engage with people and educate people so they look after the planet going forwards. Adam: And explain to me a little bit about your relationship or the museum's relationship with the Woodland Trust, then. Claire: So we have a really good relationship with the Woodland Trust. We work hand in hand with them, we share our our sort of knowledge between both of our organisations and advocate for, for you know, the good work that we both do. Adam: I'm going to have a quick look around before we go off to the to the woodland itself. What's your favourite animal here? What's the favourite thing you think you'd direct me to? Claire: Oh my goodness, you've put me on the spot there. I mean, I really love all the animals in the museum. I think the thylacine is really worth going to have a look at. Adam: OK, thylacine, never heard of it. Claire: So the thylacine is an extinct animal. It's an example of something called convergent evolution, where it looks very much like a dog, but it's actually a marsupial. It lived in Australia. So that's upstairs in gallery 5. Adam: OK, that's where I'll be heading next. Thank you very much. Well, having finished my tour inside the museum, I'm off, it really is just across the road, to the woodland itself to meet my guide for the day. Grace: My name is Grace Davis, I'm an assistant site manager at the Woodland Trust, I help to manage our woods in Hertfordshire and Essex. Adam: So we're very lucky. It was raining when I left home. It is not raining, so I don't want to tempt fate but I do want to offer my thanks to whatever power that be. Where are we? Why are we here? Grace: We're at Tring Park in Hertfordshire. It's just next to the town of Tring. It's 130 hectares of grassland and woodland. It's famous for its chalk grassland and has been designated a SSSI. Adam: Right. And we were just walking down an avenue really weren't we and you were telling me they're lime trees because I couldn't spot it, but I did have a quick look on my app and just, maybe everyone else knows this, but apparently the nickname for Brits is the limeys, I think Australians call us limeys and it was because the lime trees were made, were used to make ships. And I think the Australians thought they weren't great wood for trees and sort of nicknamed us limeys. Anyway, there's a little bit of a side note. We passed some cows, rather docile cows. What what are they doing here? Grace: We've got a a number of cows that graze here most of the year, so they really help us to manage the scrub on the chalk grassland. If nature had its way, the the grassland here would eventually convert to be woodland, which isn't a bad thing but because of the SSSI designation of the chalk grassland here, and because it's a very rare habitat internationally, we really need to manage the scrub and any trees from from taking over, so the cattle are here to browse, to keep the the growth in check of the hawthorn, the blackthorn, the the scrubby species that really want to take over. Adam: And we passed, just a bit of practical information with people, we passed a little area where I saw a lot of tree planting going on, but also that's going to be a new car park is that right? Grace: That's right. So we've actually got Tring Park itself on a 400-year lease from the council after it was threatened in the nineties to be turned into a golf course, but we've also invested in this site by converting a patch of land to a car park for 50 spaces, and we hope that that car park will be open soon, very soon, and the one of the real benefits of it is it will provide a level access into the into the grassland, whereas at the moment people generally have to walk over the bridge across the very busy A41 but with the new car park, people will be able to park and walk straight into the grassland. So it will be great for anyone with a pushchair or mobility scooter. Adam: Fantastic. Now we're we're on a bit of a hill on this path going towards, past the cows on my right, going towards the trees themselves Right just before we head off there here's a Woodland Trust little bit of signage which I don't quite understand, it's a wooden post with a foot cut out of it. It is Walter's Wander. Walter moved into rooms at Magdalene College with a flock of kiwis, which were soon rehoused and cared for by a local taxidermist. Yeah, I'm not sure a taxidermist cares for animals much. I'm sure he cares, or she cares about her work, but I'm not sure that's the the verb of the job of a taxidermist. Anyway, yeah, so this is Walter's Wander, and it is Walter Rothschild. Grace: That's right yeah so this is this is showing a link between Tring Park and the museum of which Walter Rothschild is famous for having his his taxidermy there. Adam: I mean, he proper barmy. He, Magdalene College, he was a student at university and he brought with him a flock of kiwis. I mean, my kids went to university, they weren't allowed to have a kettle in their room, let alone a flock of kiwis. Better times, eh, let's bring those back! Right off we go. Let's go. This is this is, look, I'll get this wrong, is this hawthorn on the left? Grace: This is hawthorn, yes. Adam: Ohh top marks for Adam *laughs* Top marks for Adam, OK. Grace: We've got dog rose on the right, hawthorn again. Adam: Oh you see, you're you're showing off, just cause I got one right, you've gotta get more right than me. *both laugh* OK, off we go. Grace: So some of the plants that we have here growing on the chalk grassland have got fantastic names such as fairy flax, birdsfoot trefoil, lady's bedstraw, salad burnet and you know they've all got different colours, so white, yellows, purple. So if you visit here in spring or summer, there's just beautiful shades of colour all around the park. Adam: They're wildflowers are they? Grace: Yes, that's right and they're they they they they're specialist to chalk grassland. In fact, up to 40 species of chalk grassland plants can grow in one square metre, which is quite astonishing. Adam: I was taken by lady's bedstraw. Did ladies use it for their beds? Grace: I believe it was dried and used in mattresses. Adam: Blimey. Not just for ladies, gentlemen too, presumably. Grace: *laughs* Maybe Adam: Who knows, maybe it was only for ladies. Let's do some research. OK. So we're heading uphill as you can probably hear from my laboured breathing to a wooden gate up there and that that leads us into a more densely wooded area does it? Grace: Yes, that's right so that's the mature woodland up there. And we'll be we'll be leading on to the King Charles Ride, which is quite interesting for its connection with King Charles II. Adam: So what tell me whilst we're walking up, you can talk which will mean people can't hear me panting. Tell tell me about King Charles Ride. Grace: So Tring actually used to belong to King Charles II's wife. Catherine of Braganza, I think was her name. So King Charles is known to have visited the area and the avenue was named after him, and it's also heavily rumoured that his famous mistress Nell Gwynn came here with him on certain visits. She may well have lived in Tring during a typhus outbreak in London. There's also a monument here that is rumoured to be dedicated to her, which would make it the only public monument in the country to be dedicated to a royal mistress. Adam: Wow, good knowledge. Grace: I've got my notes *laughs* Adam: If only this comes up in Trivial Pursuit. I go where's the only monument to a royal mistress? And I'll get, I'll astound people at dinner parties. Good stuff. So we're taking a little break and I've turned around and actually it's it's beautiful looking back, we're up at the top of a a small valley we can see a road ahead of us that will be the A something, A41 says my expert and the sun is cutting through greyish clouds hitting the fields, green fields and the hills beyond the A41. And it looks really pretty. I mean, it's an interesting point, isn't it, that that people, the clue's in the name, the Woodland Trust, people feel it's about, get as many trees in the ground as possible. But it's not quite like that is it, because here in this particular patch you're doing what you can to prevent trees growing? Grace: That's right. I mean, scrub, scrub and woodland are obviously fantastic habitats for a range of species. But but chalk grassland really needs a low, low, low sward so a short height of the, Adam: Low sward, what's sward? Grace: Sward is the height of the the grass and the plants. So you can see it's quite low because the cattle are browsing it. So we need to keep that low. And the cattle will browse, they will eat like the young hawthorn and blackthorn and things coming through. They won't touch, really the the bigger, more established patches. But they'll keep the young stuff from coming through, and they'll reduce the competition of more dominant weeds like dandelion and things from from coming through. They they grow very fast and they will shade out and outcompete the slower growing rare chalk grassland species. Adam: And I mean, as we're sitting here and it's sort of mid-October-ish. We're starting to see the trees change colour aren't they, you can see in the lower bits they're not this uniform green. We've got reds and yellows and coppers just coming out. It is this time of change in the year, isn't it? Grace: That's right, yeah, it's quite beautiful, actually, at this time of year. Although we're saying we don't have the colours of the of the chalk grassland plants at the moment, but we do have the lovely changing colours of the trees. Yeah so this area here was enclosed about 300 years ago by by fencing, presumably, which which meant that a lot of the habitat was kept intact. It wasn't developed on and it's preserved the historic landscape as well of the area, and in fact it's, Tring Park is a Grade II historic parkland because of the ornamental park and garden features, which we'll we'll we'll see some of as we get to the top. Adam: Lovely. Have we rested enough? Grace: Yeah, let's push on. Adam: Push on. Grace: It will be muddy this next bit, but it's not for very long. Adam: OK. Ohh you can, you might be able to hear the sound effects of this getting very muddy. Grace: Yes, claggy. Adam: We've come into well, we're on a path, a little clearing and there is a mighty, mighty tree. But it's it's certainly dead. But it looks like something from a Harry Potter movie, The Witches or Macbeth, something like that. What's the story there? Grace: Well that's a tree perhaps it was struck by lightning, or it's just decayed you know, with old age. That's what we would call a veteran tree. So it's got wonderful cavity at the base there, it's got fungi growing on it. It's got the the top is all split off. It's open, open at the top for birds to nest in. You know, we we really do like to keep as much deadwood on a site as possible. It's just fantastic for invertebrates, bugs, beetles, fungi. There's about 2,000 invertebrate species that are reliant on dead or decaying woods, so you know, we're really working at the at the base of the ecosystem to get those small creatures into the woodland ecosystem for, you know, birds, mammals to to then eat and forming the wonderful woodland ecology that we that we need. Adam: So it it's not a good idea to clear away these things and make everything look neat. It's actually it's part of the ecosystem. There's it's funny cause you can't see anything that you know, there's no leaves on it or anything, but you're saying there's lots of animals actually dependent on that dead wood. Grace: That's right. Yeah. Really, it's really. That's right. If we had a closer look, we'd see all sorts of small bugs and beetles and crawly, creepy, crawly things. There may well be bats that roost in there, birds that nest in there, probably fungi around the base and at the cavities. Adam: Right. And that's supporting other animals who need to eat on that and and the soil itself obviously, which is increasingly a big issue, isn't it? Grace: That's right. Yeah, of course, well that, that, that tree will eventually decay into the soil and the soil health of woodland is really really important. Adam: Yeah, I mean, that's an increasingly big issue for people, isn't it? We don't we don't think about much about the soil, we look above the soil, but the soil health is a huge concern and and increasing issue for people to maintain, isn't it? Grace: That's right. I mean, the trees will come and go over hundreds of years but the soil will remain, and it's got those nutrients that have built up for hundreds and hundreds of years, especially in an ancient woodland, so it it's really the soil that is the most important thing in an ancient woodland. Adam: And remind me this is something I definitely should know but, is is there a definition of ancient woodland? Is there a cut off period? Grace: Yeah, it's trees that date back to the the 1600s, which is really when records began of mapping out the country and what the land uses were. Adam: Right, OK. And we're just going up, here are two or three felled trees. We've gotta turn right here have we? Grace: That's right yeah. Adam: They look like they've been cut down just left or no, they're very black. Is that fire or something? Grace: I think that's just water from the, from the rain, because that tree there is very dark isn't it. Adam: Right, oh yeah, that's dark. So we've come up to the top of the hill, or is there much, is there another hill? Grace: No, no, no, no more hills. Maybe just gently undulating, but no more hills. Adam: OK, right. So we're at the top of the hill. But I see a regal path ahead. I can imagine myself in my zebra drawn carriage riding down here, waving, if not at my people, then at my trees. So is this all in my imagination or is this is this the King Charles road? Grace: I'm not sure if the zebras made it up here, but this is known as the King Charles Ride, named after Charles II, we're also on the Ridgeway Trail, which is Britain's oldest road. Adam: Sorry, this this road I'm standing on now? Grace: That's right yeah, this, this, this stretch is part of an 87-mile national trail that stretches from Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire. It would have been used by drovers, traders, soldiers for at least 5,000 years. Adam: Gosh, that's extraordinary. Grace: So if if if, if, if one is so inclined, you can walk from Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire, or do it in reverse, taking in wonderful views, and you know, walking in vhy many hundreds of years of ancestors' footprints. Adam: Yeah. And and how many times have you done that walk then? Grace: *laughs* Zero. But I would like to do it one day. Adam: One day. OK. Well, you could do it in bits. I'll do I'll do the first kilometre with you. Grace: Lots of people do do it in bits. They park up, they walk a stretch and they get somebody to pick them up at the other end and take them back to their car. But actually I was I was on site here in the summer and I heard some like tinkling bells and looked up and it was two guys with huge backpacks and they were walking from the start of the Ridgeway Trail all the way to the Avebury standing stones in Wiltshire for the summer solstice. Adam: Blimey. How long would that, do you know how long that would have taken them? Grace: I don't know actually. Maybe a couple of weeks. Adam: Wow. And they had tinkling bells. I think you just sort of threw that in, which I think is that might get on my nerves with two weeks of walking with someone with a tinkling bell. Any idea why they were, were they just magical folk? Grace: They looked a little bit magical, but also I think it was day one so they might have ditched the tinkling bells after day one. Adam: Well, and actually we should, that's extraordinary, but I want to stop here because there's another felled tree and you were talking about the importance of actually decaying wood and even to the semi untrained eye like mine, we've got a tree trunk lying on its side and the roots of a tree still embedded covered in moss, but also fungi all over the place here. I mean, this is it's not a dead bit of wood at all really is it, it's hosting a huge amount of life. Grace: Yeah, it's absolutely living. Numerous fungi, species and bracket fungi here on the side. Smaller, smaller ones down there, you can see like the holes where beetles and different invertebrates are getting into the deadwood, what what, which is getting softer and softer over time. Ahhuge cavity over there, which could be used for all sorts of species. Adam: Looks like an elephant's foot at the bottom, doesn't it? Really does, amazing. Amazing that. Ah, OK. Back to the path. And we are, I mean, look, it's actually quite nice weather at a time of year where the weather isn't going to stay with us much and we are the only people. And I can see all the way down the King Charles Avenue and yes, just us, just us. All right, now we've had to stop because you got very excited about something you said ‘Stop!'. So why? Grace: That's right yeah so these are young lime trees that have originally come from the veteran lime trees we saw at the avenue at the start of our walk. So we've we've propagated, we've taken the seed from those veteran limes and we've grown them on into these young lime trees which we've planted up here because those those lime trees on the lime avenue they're not gonna live forever. They've hopefully got many hundreds of years left, but we want to continue their historic link to the site so this is seed from those very trees that we've planted up here on the King Charles Ride. Adam: And since, I mean, lime is obviously there's a lot of lime trees we've already been talking about that here. Just give me a as part of our online tree identity course, how do you spot a lime? Grace: So you you can tell a lime generally from the quite heart shape of its leaf, and they do also have quite quite unique looking seed pods as well. Adam: They've got little things on them. They flutter around to help them fly, like I always think of them as mini helicopters but anyway. OK, great. Grace: There's a word for those things I can't think what they're called. Adam: Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll call them mini helicopters and see if it catches on. Grace: Yeah, yeah, yeah *laughs* Adam: Yes, it's getting spookily dark under the canopy here, so these are clearly not lime trees. What sort of trees are these? Grace: We've got a lot of mature yew trees here which are causing quite a bit of shade at the moment across the ride. Adam: Yeah. So you showed you showed me how to spot a lime. How do you know these are yew trees? Grace: So yews have got these needle-like leaves a little bit like a Christmas tree sort of leaf. But but needles and they also have usually very sort of gnarly, flaky bark and red berries. Hopefully we'll see some, that would be quite fun, they're quite a quite an interesting shape. Adam: And yew trees are some of the oldest living trees, aren't they? Grace: They can live a very long time, yes. Adam: I thought, is it, I might be getting confused but I thought is it yew trees that often get planted in graveyards. Grace: Yeah, that's right. Yes. Adam: And I think, I mean, who knows? I think I've heard examples, you know in the thousand, 1,000 year old or or even more which is properly ancient. Grace: Yes. I believe they were there before the graveyards, Adam: Ohh I see it was the other way round. Grace: Yeah, that's what I've read because the yews were connected to Paganism and the, the, the, the, I believe the churchyards were built on these sort of sacred or spiritual sites where the trees were already in place. Adam: Right. Yes, must have something to do with rebirth or longevity of, you know, I'm I'm sure I've heard of a yew tree being 2,000 years old, so you're thinking, God you know, there's a yew tree from the age of Jesus Christ which really think, makes you ponder doesn't it, but that's I didn't realise you thought it was the other way around, I thought they planted yew trees in graveyards rather than they built graveyards around yew trees, but it makes more sense in some ways. So we're taking a little path to the left. I say little it's also rather grand, to be honest. But I know why I'm being taken down here cause at the end I can see a stone monument of some description. So I'll see what it is when I get there and you can hear the time of year, the leaves are falling, you might be able to hear that rustle. So this is an unexpected find, we come into another clearing and there is a huge stone monument. Grace, what on earth, what is this? Grace: This is the obelisk. It's a it's one of two Scheduled Ancient Monuments here, we'll see the other one shortly. It was built in in the early 18th century, so it's contemporary with the the the start of the parkland here. And probably designed by the architect James Gibbs. And it's said to be dedicated to Nell Gwynn. Adam: I mean, there's nothing on it, when you said you were taking me to see something dedicated to Nell Gwynn, you'd think they'd have a blooming statue of Nell Gwynn. It's, I mean, but it is huge and it's got a a round bauble at the top, I'm just going round it to see if there's any markings on the base, which there isn't. So maybe maybe this was a sort of you know, I'm going to publicly recognise you with this enormous monument, but because you're not the queen, I can't put your name on it. Amazing. Oh, my goodness, I'm turning around and there's another stunning thing at the end of this pathway, it's just full of surprises. So this looks like a Palladian villa at the end of this pathway, so is this also to Nell Gwyn but says nothing about her on it? Grace: No, I no, I don't think so. This is the summer house. The other Scheduled Ancient Monument here, again designed by the same architect. Well, we'll see when we get there, but it it looks certainly very impressive from the front, but we'll see more up close what lies behind. Adam: Ohh, you see, you're teasing me now *both laugh* Why she goes ohh what's, what does lie behind that villa? Alright. Let's go find out. You said go go at the back. There's something. It looks like it's very crowded at the back. Let's have a look. Ohh, there's nothing to it. There isn't a back. It's just a facade. Grace: That's right. The facade is all that remains now. Adam: There, there, there was more to it was there? Grace: There was more. It was it was an actual building, it was lived in by a gamekeeper and and his son in the 19th century. Adam: What a house for a gamekeeper. It's fit for a king. That's extraordinary. Grace: But it was demolished to make way for the Wiggington Road, which you might be able to hear in the background. Adam: Oh, how disappointing. Nonetheless a very nice pied-a-terre. Grace: It looks like an ancient temple from the front. Adam: It does. I just need a bit, you know, 4 foot at the back, I'll move in. Very nice. Now this has properly been a real treat, but modern life is intervening not only in the shape of the cars you might hear in background, but I have a Teams call with some TV producers I have to meet in about half an hour and they will be not and they will not be amused if I say I'm lost in a wood. So modern life as ever drags you back, what's the way home Grace? Grace: I'll I'll I'll walk you back, don't worry. Adam: Thank you, thank you, you're not going to just leave me to follow a trail of breadcrumbs back to the car. Well, that was quite a trip. If you want to visit Tring Park, it is on the A41, 30 miles North West of London and if you go to the Woodland Trust website, type in Tring Park, you'll find lots of other ways of getting there by bus, by train, on foot, by bicycle and even the What 3 Words location to use as well. And if you want to find a wood nearer you than Tring Park, well type into your search engine of choice Woodland Trust find a wood and you'll find one near you. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Discover the fascinating ancient art of coppicing as we visit Priory Grove in Wales' Wye Valley, where the technique is still practised on a small scale to benefit both people and wildlife. We meet site manager Rob and contractor Joe to learn more about the coppicing carried out here, and how this interaction between people and nature has enabled the two to develop and evolve in tandem. Also in this episode, find out how an unfortunate end for ash trees resulted in a fantastic sea of wild garlic, the team's efforts to encourage dormice, bats, pine martens and other wildlife and which tree to identify by likening the trunk to elephants' feet!  Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, today I am off to Priory Grove, which is next door really to the River Wye near Monmouth in Wales to meet the site manager Rob there who's gonna give me a bit of a tour. It's predominantly made up of ancient woodland and provides a wide range of habitats for wildlife. Things like roe, fallow deer, they're known to forage throughout the area, and a wide variety of bird species, including the tawny owl, sparrowhawk, and the great spotted woodpecker, which can all be seen on the wing here. All very exciting and I've just got to find it and find Rob.  Rob: Hello, I'm Rob Davies, site manager, South East Wales.  Adam: So tell me a little bit about where we are and why this is significant.  Rob: This is Priory Grove woodland. It's quite a large site on the outskirts of Monmouth, but nobody really knows what its history is. It's it's called Priory Grove, presumably because it was attached to one of the monastic estates round here. And that probably accounts for its survival as one of the one of the largest ancient woodlands next to Monmouth. And it did retain a lot of its coppice woodland, which is quite important for biodiversity.  Adam: Right. And what we're, I mean, we're standing by some felled, are these oak?  Rob: These are oak. Yes, oak, oak in length.  Adam: So why why have these been felled?  Rob: This is part of the coppice restoration programme, so coppicing on this site has been a management tool that's been used for hundreds if not thousands of years in this area and it's used to produce products like this, this oak that will go into timber framing and furniture and all those good things. And also, firewood is part of the underwood and the the the hazel and the the the understory coppice. So products for people and in the past it was used for all kinds of things before we had plastic. But it's still very useful, and so because it didn't cease until recently on this site, the animals and plants and the fauna that relies upon this method that have evolved with it essentially in the last 10,000 years or so since we've been managing woods in this way, still are present here on this site or in the local area. So if you continue the cycle you continue this interaction with the wildlife and you can help to reverse the biodiversity declines. So it's very holistic, really this management technique. But it does mean that to make space for the coppice regrowth, because trees don't grow under trees, you know it needs the light. The light needs to be there for the coppice to come up again. You have to take out some of these mature oaks that were planted 150, 200 years ago, with the intention of being used in the future. So we're planting things and we're carrying out the plans, we're bringing them to fruition, what people enacted a couple of hundred years ago.  Adam: It it's interesting, isn't it, because it it it is an ancient woodland, but that doesn't mean it's an untouched woodland, because for hundreds of years it's it's been managed. Man has had a hand in this and not only that, commerce has had a hand in that, so often I think we think of these things as a dichotomy. You have ancient woodland, nice, pristine sort of nature, and then you have sort of horrible invasive commerce. Actually, I think what's interesting about this site is that there isn't that dichotomy. They both work in tandem, is that fair?   Rob: That's right, it's a false dichotomy. So the reason these woods have survived is because they were used for people, and because of the way they're managed, coppicing and thinning is quite a sensitive technique, it allows space for nature to be present and to develop and evolve in tandem, so they're not mutually exclusive.  Adam: Yes. So tell me about coppicing is an important part of this site, tell me a little bit about what you're doing at the moment with that.  Rob: Yeah, so we've had a grant actually from the Wye Valley AONB from, supported by the Heritage Lottery Fund, to to do some coppicing work on stands that were coppiced about 20 years ago. So we're continuing that cycle. And we've been working with a company called Wye Coppice Community Interest Company, Wye Coppice CIC, and they're quite developed in, in the Wye Valley area. And we formed a good relationship with them and through them we've been able to do half a hectare of coppicing up on the other slope higher up in the site there. If you like we can go up and meet Joe?  Adam: That would be wonderful. Yeah. You you lead on I will follow. Well, you can hear from this I'm a bit out of breath, we've claimed, OK, I'll be embarrassed to say it's a hill, a small incline, but we've come across this stand of of felled trees. So just tell me a bit about what's going on here.  Rob: Exactly. So all these stumps you can see scattered throughout the stand. This is the coppice, so it's cut down to just above base ground level there now and it will just regrow. So it's kind of a natural defence strategy that we're just exploiting. So it's it's been used to, it's, you know, since it evolved things like hazel especially, it‘s used to being browsed off by animals, the animals move on and then the tree just comes back. So it's like a phoenix strategy it comes back, back up again. We're just exploiting that. So we'll cut the tree to base and then we'll protect the regrowth from the browsing animals and then the tree will come again.  Adam: Right, and this is the work done by Joe?  Rob: Yeah, this yeah so this is the work done by Joe Weaver. Joe's just down the end there actually if you want to come and meet him.  Adam: OK, let's go have it let's go meet him. Ohh I've got stuck. OK, so Joe, this is all your handiwork.  Joe: It is, yes.  Adam: Tell me a bit about what what it is you do then.  Joe: So I run Wye Coppice CIC, we're a coppice contracting company and working with Woodland Trust, Natural Resource Wales and Wildlife Trusts throughout the Wye Valley and we're embarking on a project to restore areas of the Wye Valley to restore, do a coppice restoration project for for various organisations throughout the Wye Valley. The what you see, what you see here is about 1 1/2 acres of cut down trees with 7 or 8 standards.  Adam: What are standards?  Joe: The standards are the trees that we've left behind, so, so they're the large, they're the larger trees.  Adam: Oh, I see right. So you wouldn't be coppicing, these are very well established big trees, you don't coppice trees like that, you coppice quite small trees, don't you?  Joe: Yes, so all the small diameter understory trees we've cut down to ground level and and they will, they will resprout and grow back again. We can then come back in 10 years and recut them and have a healthy supply of continue, a continual healthy supply of pole wood.  Adam: And yeah, so what you're trying to get with coppicing is sort of quite it's quite small diameter wood, is that correct?  Joe: Yes, generally speaking, so this is a restoration project you can see this first cut is fairly large diameter. And so most of this will go to make charcoal but generally speaking after 10, maybe 15 years of growth, we'll have poles about sort of thumb size and maybe up to about 50 pence diameter.  Adam: Right. And that's ideal size, is it?  Joe: And that's a really good size for products like bean poles, hedging stakes and binders that go on the top of naturally laid hedging and then various other pole wood applications.  Adam: And and when you see a coppiced tree, evidence that it's been coppiced, there's, I'm trying to look over there, is is this where you see lots of different branches actually coming out from the stump in the ground? That's evidence that's been coppiced, cause it not just one thing grows, lots of them?  Joe: That's right. So you can, if you have one birch tree standing up, for example, you can cut that down to the ground, and when you come back in a few months' time, you'll notice about 5 or 6 shoots coming from that one stump at the bottom of the ground. So if we can protect that from deer browsing and rabbit browsing, then those stems, those five or six shoots will grow up into individual stems that we can then use use in pole wood products.  Adam: It's odd, isn't it that that happens, though, that you chop down one sort of main stem and you get four or five coming back, that's sort of an  odd natural thing to happen, isn't it?  Joe: It is. I think it's the tree's response to the stress of being cut down. So it sort of puts out a lot of it puts a lot of energy into regrowing new growth to try to survive because essentially these broadleaf species, trees, they're they're forever growing, you can cut them down they'll regrow, cut them down again, they'll regrow again. So it's a constant cycle of of regrowth.  Adam: Yeah it's it's like sort of, you know, thumbing their nose at you isn't it, going well, you cut me down well I'm gonna come back fivefold. You know, that's it's a sort of really funny response.  Joe: Indeed. But we can reap the benefits of that.  Adam: Yeah no, no, it's, I get, I get why that's good. And coppicing itself, that, and that's an ancient art, isn't it?  Joe: It has, certainly here in the Wye Valley it was practised at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution to produce charcoal to power the Industrial Revolution until coal was iintroduced and so it happened for hundreds and hundreds of years here.  Adam: Right. So you think, do you think I mean there's no need for you to be an historical expert on the history of coppicing, but do you think that's the first big sign of it happening, sort of Industrial Revolution time?  Joe: Certainly around here it is yeah, and there's some of the coupes that we've cut, some of the coppice areas that we've cut here, we've found evidence of charcoal hearths. So you can see flat areas with bits of charcoal sort of sliding down the bank.  Adam: So that would be ancient sites in here, well, ancient, I mean, a few 100 years old of them actually making charcoal in this woodland?  Joe: Yes, in this woodland, throughout the Wye Valley all the way throughout the Wye Valley here, yes.  Adam: Amazing. Now so your company, it's not just a traditional sort of private business, it is a a different sort of form. Just explain how that works.  Joe: So we run a community interest company and that allows us to access grant funding if we need to. Essentially, we're run as a private business, but we are able to do community outreach work as well and that's part of what we do is to try to educate people about sustainable woodland management.  Adam: And how did you get involved in all of this then? Did you grow up as a boy going I want to chop down trees to make fences.  Joe: No, I didn't. I was walking in the Dolomites, I saw two stoats fighting and thought woodland life is for me *laughs*.  Adam: Ok, well, fantastic, never heard that, so inspired by the the battle between two stoats and the and and the Dolomites. That's fantastic, but a hard life, I would have thought to run a business to, I mean it's physical work anyway, but that's my perception from the outside, is it hard work?  Joe: It it can be very difficult, it does have its benefits. Obviously it keeps you fit and it gets you outside but yes, it is a hard life and and you know it's it's quite a technical job as well and the training is expensive so we're trying to introduce a training programme as well through through our through our business Wye Coppice to try to get young people interested in woodland management.  Adam: And do you find that people sometimes don't understand or or perhaps disagree with the fact that commerce and nature can be actually mutually beneficial? Do you find that an issue at all?  Joe: Yes I do. Yes, and we're we're we're always willing to stop and talk to dog walkers especially. Shortly after COP26, we had two dog walkers come past and shout at us for chopping the trees down, after sitting down with them and having a cup of tea, they bought a bag of charcoal off us.  Adam: Right ok very good there we are. You're bringing them round one by one, one by one, those customers are coming over. Well brilliant and we've had not a bad day. I thought I might have to put my wet weather gear on, but it's been it's been OK. Anyway well, that's brilliant thank you very much. That's been really interesting.  Joe: Thank you.  Adam: So we've got this stand of trees we're looking at Rob. A couple couple of oak. Did you say that was a lime?   Rob: That's a lime yeah.   Adam: That's the lime, that that one with lots of ridges in it is that the lime?  Rob: That's it, yeah.  Adam: That's the lime. So why have you left these trees? Is there particular reasons you didn't take these ones out?  Rob: Yeah. So these as you can see, these are all mature trees and so you don't take these decisions lightly. So when we coppice this sort of half a football field area here, there were thirteen of these big mature trees, trees you can barely get your hands around as they're so large, taken a couple of hundred years to grow, so you've got to be quite careful and quite selective, although you need the light. There's an old adage about oak trees, it goes something like this that to fell an oak tree you need three things. You need a good eye, a sharp axe and a cold heart because these trees, you know they've been grown and nurtured and developed, and they're impressive life forms. And so it's not something you do without considering it very carefully so so you can see a couple of trees in here which are a couple of oaks, good size, but they're full of ivy, very dense ivy and that's very good for wintering bats. For hibernation, or for potentially summer roosting.  Adam: So the bats would live just amongst the Ivy, they'd sleep amongst the ivy?  Rob: Yeah when it gets as dense as this, when it's really all knotted, entwined, there's lots of gaps behind it. You could stick your hand in and find little cavities and several species of bat, especially pipistrelle, they they will hibernate over winter in this kind of growth. So you really don't want to be disturbing this.  Adam:  Right. And and what what's, is there something specific about lime that wildlife like is there any particular wildlife?  Rob: Well, it's good for bees. It's good good good pollen.  Adam: You get beehives in there? Oh I see, the pollen itself is good.  Rob: They like the flowers. Yeah yeah it produces lots of the small leaved lime it produces lots of good flowers and and it will attract aphids which is actually a food source for for dormice in the summer. So they they feed on the feed on the lime sap, you know if you park your car under a lime tree, you'll get this very sticky kind of substance coming off it.  Adam: Yes, yeah, yeah. Of course it does. Yes. Yeah, yeah.  Rob: So that attracts aphids, attracts the dormice, it's good for insects who like nectar as well. So it's a it's a very valuable tree and and you know  Adam: So interesting it's it's not valuable commercially, it's valuable for nature.  Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And it's quite it's quite a special tree in the in the Wye Valley, it doesn't occur much outside this area naturally, and it's kind of an ancient woodland indicator in this part of the world, perhaps not officially, but it's a.  Adam: OK. Any other trees we've got here?  Rob: Yeah. The rest of the trees, then are beech.  Adam: Right and you've kept those why?  Rob: Yeah, because you can see if you look at this one here, it's got quite a few cavities in it at the base at the top, beech tends to do that. It tends to take, form little cavities, rot holes and ways in, and that's ways in for fungus and then they eat out and hollow the tree. So the potential for harbouring bats again is very high in these trees. Without sort of going into them, doing some invasive exploration, you can't tell, but it's it's very high potential for bats. So again, bats, all species of bats in this country are protected under law because they've had massive declines like a lot of woodland species. And so we'll do everything we can to retain that habitat.  Adam: It's it's the Field of Dreams, philosophy. You you build it and they will come.  Rob: Yeah, yeah. This as long as it stays there, it'll always be valuable as habitat and so at least then, there are future sort of veteran trees within this stand.  Adam: It is interesting you you've already, I mean, we've only done a short part of this walk so far, but you talked about whoever was managing this woodland 100 years ago knew what they were talking about. And I think that's fascinating that we don't know who that person is or who who they, who those people were. And in 100 years time, people won't know who you were p.sumably, but the the evidence of your work will be here. They'll go yeah, that was a good bloke who did all this and left us with something.  Rob: That's it, you you don't plant trees for yourself, you plant trees for the future generation so you know, I won't see the oaks I plant develop. I'll be dead long before they mature and it's the same for the person who did this. But you can see the ones we took out, the ones I took out and selected were tall and straight. And that means that the coppice is well managed, because there was enough light for the hazel in the understory to come up straight away. If you cut hazel to the ground and you protect it, in a couple of years, it'll be way above six, eight foot and it'll just continue to get higher and higher over the next few years. And what that does is it shades the stem of the oak and it prevents side branching. So you get this very tall initial first stem. And that's what you're looking for. And that's what these trees had. So this would have clearly been cared for and these trees have been selected, they were on a journey from the moment they were planted.  Adam: OK. And just on my journey of education about trees, how do, what, they're beech, I wouldn't be able to spot that myself, what tells you they're beech?  Rob: It's a smooth trunk. If you look at this one here now you can see I always think of them as sort of elephant legs. They're grey and they're tall and they're smooth and they quite often have sort of knobbly bits on the base like an elephant's foot. And if you go through a stand of pure beech, it looks like it looks like a stand of elephants' feet, really tall, grey stems and these big huge buttress roots.  Adam: Fantastic. I am never going to forget that and I will always think of elephants when I look at a beech, a brilliant brilliant clue. Thank you. Right. So where we off to now?  Rob: We'll walk around so you can see the top of the coupe and just see the extent of it and and then we'll walk back down perhaps and have a look at this oak.   Adam: Brilliant. Well we've come to the, over the brow of the hill and along this path, there's a tiny little path for me to walk, and on either side there's a carpet of green. And I think I know what this carpet of green is. Rob, what is it tell me?  Rob: This is wild garlic.   Adam: Yeah. This is the time of year, is it?  Rob: Yep, you can see the flower heads. Ramsons it's also called, it's just about coming into flower now.  Adam: Sorry they're called what?  Rob: Ramson.  Adam: Ramson. Is that the flower itself is called ramson, or is that?  Rob: Well, just the plant.  Adam: We call it wild garlic but it's it's real name is ramson?  Rob: Well some people call it ramson too.  Adam: Right OK. And I never, I mean I have never picked and eaten anything from a forest because I am sure I will kill myself, but all of this, I mean, I've seen loads of people do that, pick wild garlic and it's, I mean there's there's acres of the stuff here.  Rob: It can it can yeah any kind of wild plant comes with the caveats that you need to know what you're doing.  Adam: Yes, which which I don't.  Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny yeah, this site is quite well known for its ramsons, for its wild garlic carpets. This this is in response to something here, quite a sad thing actually. We're right next, you can probably hear the road noise there, we're right next to the main road from Monmouth into the Forest of Dean, Staunton Road there, and unfortunately, a lot of the trees along the road edge were big, big, mature ash trees. And they all had dieback and they were all dropping limbs and about to crush a car. And so, you know, we take that very seriously in terms of health and safety so the trees just along the road edge, we left the ones in the wood, just the road edge trees we had to do something about them, so they've either been reduced or felled and what that's done in this woodland where in the last 60 years, you have had very little management, like most woods, post war, very little has happened. So it becomes very high, very closed canopy, very dense. And what's happened, because of the ash felling is, you've got this pocket of light here and the ramsons have immediately responded to that. So this wasn't here last year. This carpet like this.  Adam: What so this is this is brand new?  Rob: This is brand new. It was the odd plant coming up every year, patches of it.  Adam: I'm shocked because this looks like something from the Wizard, if this was yellow, this would be we'd be in the middle of the Wizard of Oz set here, the yellow brick road. It just I mean it it's just a beautiful, winding, lush, dense path of wild garlic. It looks like it's been here forever.  Rob: And in a sense it it was. It was just waiting for the opportunity, waiting for that temporary disturbance caused by the ash felling. And so like with the coppicing, that's what we're trying to recreate essentially, is these temporary pockets of disturbance where you you break up the canopy, you get this flush of greenery and then until the trees recover it and regrow again. So you don't want this homogeneous block of woodland really. You want, you want variation, because that's the key to success for, for wildlife and biodiversity, different niches, different ages. If you look closely, you can see it's not just the garlic either. You can see wood anemone, you can see greater wood vetch, you can see little violets. So, you know, quite quite a lot of species are now taking advantage of this temporary light that the ash felling's produced.  Adam: It is a nice positive message, isn't it? Because ash dieback has been a real tragedy. But even in the midst of problems there are opportunities which nature comes back with, it's an optimistic sign.  Rob: There is and so this as I say, you know these these trees would have coppiced without us because you know when animals browse them, they they they they come back after that so all we're doing is sort of recreating these natural processes through the management of the woodland. A once in a lifetime storm might have knocked these ash out or a hurricane, something like that, could have felled the whole area and then temporary open space, the plants capitalise and then the wood comes back again, so we're just just mimicking what nature does anyway.  Adam: I'm going to take a photo of this, put it on my Twitter feed. It's fantastic. So we've just taken a little stop on this path of wild garlic. So over to the right is well, I thought it was a bird box, it's a large bird box. You tell me it's actually something very specific.   Rob: Yeah, this is a pine marten nest box cause there was there has been a big release of pine marten. Pine martens are native to this country. It's kind of like a large weasel that lives in the trees. That's a really bad way of describing it, but it's a it's a mustelid. It's a large, impressive, intelligent animal and they were sort of pressed to persecute, to extinction, with persecution in the past. But they're very important in these woods for regulating, you know, the biodiversity, they, they prey on the grey squirrel especially, and they'll regulate bird numbers like any predator does. So it's it's great to see them coming back and it's a success story actually, because a couple of years ago now there was a release programme where captive animals were put into the Forest of Dean which is just over that direction. And so we put up some boxes and monitored them and pine martens are moving back into this area now. Whether they're using the boxes or not, we're not entirely sure, but they are moving in, so it's a, it's a really good story. So we'll do whatever we can to sort of encourage them because we've we've lost a lot of this old growth woodland that we're trying to protect and so they haven't got the nest cavities, so temporarily we'll provide this habitat.  Adam: And over the other side of the little dip, there's another pathway and it looks like the bank has been cut away and it's very black so that it doesn't look quite natural. What's going on there?  Rob: Well the the track that's been put in there is exposed, an earlier industry, so that's that's a charcoal platform. See what is it about five, five metres in diameter. Sort of sort of circular and very, very thick layer of charcoal. A huge fire has been there, but that's that's lots and lots of fires, one on top of the other.  Adam: So this is this is not current, this is probably a couple of hundred years old?  Rob: I think the last burn in this woodland would have been before the Second World War.  Adam: Oh right, so not that old.  Rob: Well, I mean, if they were still burning, they would have had the odd one, but this probably dates to sort of the the height of the the periods of the the late 19th century. So this here, it's been buried and forgotten about. But it shows you as Joe was saying earlier, at one point this was a managed wood and quite a few woods in Wales if you look on the maps you'll see things like coed poeth, which probably roughly translates as sort of hot wood or or burning woods, very roughly, probably, which gives you, may may give you an indication that these woods were worked and if you came here, you would have probably seen people living in the woods with the charcoal, tinner and charcoal workers, especially in the the 19th century, would have moved in in the summer to do the charcoal production with their families.  Adam: Just living in a tent or something?  Rob: Living in on site yeah, because then you know you don't want to move products, move things twice. You know, it's it's an economic, so you bring your family in, you produce your product, and then you come out with it at the end of the season so it's very peaceful here today. You can hear the birds. It's great for wildlife, but it would have been a managed landscape and we're trying to introduce a little bit of that. Obviously not people living in the woodlands anymore, but there's space for both here within this woodland, a bit a bit of coppicing a bit of management and reserve areas.  Adam: And I mean, I I hadn't quite noticed it while we were walking, but now we're we're standing here on this green carpet, there is an overpowering smell of garlic, it's quite extraordinary. It's very fresh, you know, sometimes when you're in the kitchen and the garlic it's it's, it's not fresh, it's pungent, but this is, you know, it's mixed with the sort of cool air, it's a really lovely smell.  Rob: It's making me hungry, actually.  Adam: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I was thinking whether I should pick some for dinner.  Rob: Chop some up. Pasta sauce. It's lovely with that.  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, lovely. And and there's another one amongst this wild garlic, it's clock, what was it?  Rob: Yeah, this one here, it's the town hall clock or moschatel as it's known.  Adam: Town hall clock that's it. So just, what's the what's its proper name?  Rob: Moschatel. Well, that, that's it's another acronym, ah pseudonym really it's moschatel.  Adam: Moschatel.  Rob: Or town hall clock. I forget the Latin actually, to my shame.  Adam: Is moschatel the Welsh word for it, or it's not  Rob: No, it's not. It's a general general word, just a colloquial local term.  Adam: And why is it called the town hall clock?  Rob: Look you can see these four, the flowers have four sides to them, like an old town hall clock would.  Adam: Right, lovely. It's really quite, quite a rich path we're wandering down.  Rob: You see the the bluebells are out look just now, if you look up into the wood there you can see them. In Welsh they're called clychau'r gog, which is the cuckoo bell.  Adam: Wow. Cuckoo bell.  Rob: Because it comes out when the cuckoo comes. Apparently, the grant paid for like a fence, contractors to fence off that, this boundary here, stop the deer coming in from the Dean. To stop the wild pigs actually, pigs are a  Adam: You get wild pigs here?  Rob: They're a nuisance round here, yeah.  Adam: Wild pigs?  Rob: They call them, they're not really boar, because a boar will produce like, I don't know, maybe a litter of six, and these pigs will do 22.   Adam: Right. Blimey. And how big are they?  Rob: They look like boar.  Adam: So and boar can be quite violent, can't they, quite aggressive.  Rob: Yeah, they're sort of half breed, half pig, half boar. They're big animals, got a cute little stripey piglets, just like a boar does. But they, you know, they're exponential in their reproduction, so they're  Adam: And and they're around this wood?  Rob: They're here.  Adam: So do they cause a problem with eating or do they nibble on the new trees and stuff?  Rob: Yeah, yeah, well, they sort of rootle, I mean you want boar, because they were here originally. You want boar, like the deer, you want them in sustainable numbers, they're all sleeping now.  Adam: Do they come out at night?  Rob: They only come out at night yeah.  Adam: I'll have to return.  Rob: Yeah. I mean you'd see them if you went up to the top path up there.  Adam: We haven't done a night podcast. I think we should do some bats and.  Rob: You can do bats, if you wait, while you're waiting for the badgers to come out, you can do the bats. There's a few sites around here where you can watch them.  Adam: OK, well maybe  Rob: I'm sure there's other Trust sites where people know.  Adam: Maybe I'll come back.  Rob: One summer when I was doing my bachelor's degree, I was working in Llanelli in like a, just a café just to get some money. I was working with the local girls there, I'd been out surfing in Llangennith on the Gower the day before and I was like just telling her how the seals came in because they chased the mackerel in just beyond the surf line and I was sitting there and the water just boiled with the stench of of fish and mackerel and I looked around and two seals popped up and they were driving the mackerel into the back of the waves to hunt them. I was telling her this and she was like, what, you're telling me there's seals in the water here, in Llanelli, where? I said just in the Gower. Seals? Like seals seals, like live in water? I said there's seals there, yeah, they've always been there, we just don't value what's around us.  Adam: We don't notice it.  Rob: We don't notice because you can't see it, you don't see it, yeah.  Adam: It's interesting, isn't it, Attenborough has done a series recently on the UK and you go, you don't have to go to Africa or Latin America to see these things.  Rob: There you go. I was in West Wales last week in Aberaeron, and you can see bottlenose dolphins. Increasingly under threat there's that number of point but yeah, but they're there. You can see the seals, you can see them all around us, yeah. This is doing well.  Adam: Well, I'm going to have to leave our little trip down the Wye Valley with some rather unexpected chat about seals and bottlenose dolphins and a promise to return one dark night to meet some bats. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Join us as presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble guides us through magical ancient woodland near her remote Wales home in the Wye Valley. With infectious enthusiasm and occasional impressions, she tells us about the plants and animals along our route as well as the story of her accidental career, becoming host of nation's favourite Springwatch having never wanted to be a TV presenter! Kate also talks worldwide travels, access to nature and planting trees with the Woodland Trust on her smallholding. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.  Adam: Well, in early spring I went on a woodland walk in Wales with presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble, who was taking me around what promised to be some amazing woodland with her dogs. But as is increasingly common in these podcasts we of course had to begin with me getting absolutely and entirely lost.   This is an absolute disaster. Although I am bad at directions, this is not my fault *laughs* So Kate sent me a pin, she said look this is going to be hard to find my place, she sent me a map pin. I followed the map pin. Look I'm here I don't know if you can hear this you probably can't hear this. This is the gate that's locked, which is across some woodland path. So I can't get there. And of course there is no phone signal, so I'm going to have to drive all the way back to some town to find a phone signal. And I'm already late.   OK. I have managed to find a village where there is a phone signal. I've managed to call Kate and Kate *laughs* Kate has clearly got the measure of me and told me to give up and she is now going to get in her car and find me in this village and I will follow her back. In the meantime, we have passed Google map pins back and forwards, which apparently tell her that I'm sitting outside her house. But I really am nowhere near her house, so I seem to have broken Google which well, that's a first. Anyway I've got a banana here, so if she's a long time, I have dinner and I'll just wait. This will never happen. This will actually never happen.   Well we've found Kate. We've found a whirly country drive lane. Feels a bit like rally driving. It's like, I mean, I don't understand why my map wouldn't find it, but this is certainly a bit of rally driving we're doing here getting to her house. My goodness. We found her house.   OK. Well, we're here. Which I never thought I I really thought it was really lovely. The idea was nice, and next time I'm in Wales, I'll give you a call so really, it's it's better than I thought better than I thought. Anyway, so you're leading me off with your two dogs.  Kate: I am. I am. I'm leading you off into one of the most beautiful I think I mean, obviously I'm a little bit biased but it is one of the most important areas of ancient woodland in Britain. This is the Wye Valley. We're the lower Wye valley, so we are the the the the bit really where the River Wye is in its sort of last bit of its journey. It's risen in mid Wales, about 136 miles from here. I know that cause I've walked the whole route.  Adam: Really, we're not doing that today, are we?  Kate: No we're not no I promise. I promise Adam. So yes and we are basically about 5 or 6 miles from where it flows into the River Severn and then out into the Bristol Channel and the woods around here are a lovely mix of broadleaf, so we're walking through broadleaf woodland now and this is literally this is what I walk out of my front door. Aren't I lucky?  Adam: You are lucky.  Kate: I'm so lucky. So we've got a lovely mix of broadleaf woodland now and we're just coming into that time of year. Which is the time of year that makes everybody's spirits lift, because we are coming into spring, and if we actually just stop just for a second. You can hear that's a blue tit calling *imitates sound* and I mean, this isn't the perfect day for birdsong, but the birdsong was really picking up. And that's the lovely thing about living alongside woodland. So even in the winter, even when you don't think there are any birds at all, what you hear in these words is *imitates sound* that's a very, very bad impression of a great spotted woodpecker.  Adam: OK, I'm glad you. I I was guessing it might be a woodpecker, but I didn't want to.  Kate: So they start to drum around about sort of late January, they'll be drumming. And and then as the and we also have tawny owls, lots of tawny owls in these woods. We've got an owl box and we used to have an owl that we called Percy who we have no idea whether it was a boy or girl.  Adam: I was gonna say it was, a reason it was called Percy?  Kate: Don't know, just it just it looked like a Percy.  Adam: Just fancied the name. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.  Kate: But we have lovely tawny owls here. So, you know, at dusk and and when when I take the dogs out sort of last thing at night round about 10 o'clock 11:00 o'clock at night we walk down this track and and you stand here and you hear this wonderful and everyone thinks you know, tawny owls go toowit toowoo. They're the classic toowit toowoo owls, but actually you've got 2 owls calling, so you've got the male going *imitates noise* and then you have the females going *imitates noise*. And they're calling each other, establishing territories or going ooh I like the sound of you, there's a bit of flirting going on. So these are, as I say really it's it's just the biggest treat to live with this on my doorstep.  Adam: Right, so fantastic. You you clearly I mean, you've launched into a sort of fantastic description and detailed knowledge, but you are not a country girl by birth are you?  Kate: No, I am a country girl by birth.   Adam: Oh you are? I though you were born in London?  Kate: I am. No. Well, I was you're right, I was I was  Adam: Sorry, do I know where you were born and you don't.  Kate: Well, being born and where you were brought up is different.   Adam: Yeah, OK. OK, fair enough.  Kate: So I was, you're absolutely right, I was born in London. I was born in well, I was born in Wimbledon in fact. This is my neighbour by the way.  Adam: Right. Right. Wow. I didn't, we're in the middle of nowhere I didn't know there'd be a neighbour.  Kate: I know, but I know. But there are other people mad enough to live in these woods, and he's particularly mad.  Adam: OK. Does he mind you saying that?   Kate: Not at all. Not at all. No. He's absolutely used to it. Hello. Come and say hello to the Woodland Trust podcast.   Adam: No. OK, I'm just checking. OK. Hi, I'm Adam. Hi. Nice to see you. Yeah, I hear you're her neighbour.  Kate: This is this is this is writer Mark Mccrum and his dog Jabba. Yes. So I'm just dragging Adam down to take a look at the ponds and talking about the ponds down there.  Mark: Oh lovely. Which ponds?  Kate: The ponds down there.  Mark: Oh those ones? Yeah, very good. I might see you on the reverse cause I'm gonna go all the way round.  Kate: Oh you're gonna go round. OK, fine. Lovely.  Mark: These are lovely woods cause you never see anybody here. *all laugh*  Adam: I'm sorry.  Kate: Apart from you   Adam: I was gonna say, and me, I've ruined it.  Kate: Yeah we're the only people who see each other aren't we.  Adam: So you were telling me you are you are born in Wimbledon, but you you grew up in the country then?   Kate: Yeah. So I was I was born in Wimbledon and yes. So after about, I think I was about six months old, my mother always says that she realised that London was clearly not the place for me and   Adam: From six months? Outward bound baby were you?  Kate: Yes! She said she said there basically wasn't enough space in London for me. So so yes, so I was brought up in Berkshire, right? And I was brought up next to a farm. So I was always a sort of vicariously farming kid. Even though my parents weren't farmers and and spent my childhood looking after various animals of various descriptions, and I think the wonderful thing about being the age I am, so everyone bemoans being old, but I think I just I I am so thankful that I was born in the sixties.  Adam: Why?  Kate: Because no one had invented health and safety, climbing trees, no one had climbing frames, you climbed trees. And I think the trees enjoyed it, and so did you. And if you hadn't fallen out of quite a lot of trees by the time you were 10 and had various, you know, scars or broken bits as proof of a proper childhood, it wasn't a proper childhood.   Adam: Right. OK.   Kate: So I had a lovely proper childhood of, you know, not being plonked in front of a screen of some description or another. We're going to cut off piste a little bit and head down here.  Adam: OK, I'm is this a precursor warning that I'm about to get bumps and scrapes and?  Kate: This is a precursor warning that you might yes, you might. It's quite a steep descent.  Adam: OK just as long as my, my face is my fortune though, as long as that's safeguarded throughout this, that'll be fine. OK. Well, that's good. Yeah. Lots of leaves around. Yeah.  Kate: Of course it will be a soft landing whatever you say. Lots of leaves. One of the nice things again about broadleaf woodland. And as you can see, I'm sure your leaf identification is brilliant, but we've got a lovely mix of oak here and beech, as well as the evergreen so the hollies and lovely, lovely mosses. But yes, what you're walking on is is a sort of glorious mulchy carpet, but we have a profusion of bluebells.  Adam: Already they've come up?  Kate: Well the bluebells, the the plants themselves have come up so the leaves are up and there are one or two I'm going to show you, is it, will it be your first bluebell of the year?  Adam: It, almost, almost we we can pretend it is for dramatic purposes. Let's let's go along.  Kate: OK, OK. They are, they're just, they're just starting to come here now and and you get that lovely moment. It'll be about probably about three weeks or a month's time, slightly depending on on what the weather does, where you get the, the unfurling of the beech trees. So that glorious kind of neon green which when the light goes through you get that sort of wonderful, almost disco light effect show.  Adam: And aren't they in Welsh, aren't they called cuckoos? The Welsh translation for bluebells is cuckoo clock. I think it's because it's like it's a harbinger of spring along with the cuckoo.  Kate: Oh, I didn't know that.  Adam: Oh my God, I found something you didn't know.  Kate: You know, you know, you'll know lots, I don't know, but  Adam: No, no, let's hope that's true that's that's I'll have to go check that. Do check that before you tell anybody.   Kate: Well, I'll just blame you.  Adam: But no, I do think in Welsh the translation for Bluebell is is cuckoo clock or something like that because it is this harbinger of spring and I think that's it's a really nice I I won't even try the Welsh but in Welsh it sounds very so I mean, I thought we were going to chat about your conversion to nature and everything, but actually that's a lot of nonsense. This is this has been a constant in your life?   Kate: Well, it's been, I mean, coming to Wales, so I did live in London, you know, after I left home.  Adam: Except, I mean, you didn't choose a a nature career, did you? I mean, you you're involved now we can talk about that. But first, what was your first career?  Kate: Well, I mean. Career always seems such a grand word and that you've planned it.  Adam: Yeah. OK, so your accidental career.  Kate: So my accidental career, well, I had this idea that that I that I wanted to work in television, although again I don't really know where that came from. We're going just down here. Part of me also wanted to be a a safari guide.  Adam: Good. I can see the appeal of that.  Kate: I went to I when I was 19 having never really been abroad at all, because again, our generation didn't really go abroad as a matter of course. So I went to Africa when I was 19 and.  Adam: Sorry we're not talking on a holiday?  Kate: No it was a well it was a it was probably a rebellion.   Adam: Right. You went as far away as your your parents as you could. I'm not going out for the evening I'm popping off to Africa?  Kate: Yes, yes. I'm popping off to Africa and I don't know when I'll be back. One of those.  Adam: Right. Yeah, good. Good exit line. So where, where, where in Africa were you and what were you doing there?  Kate: So I I started in South Africa. I ended up in Egypt.  Adam: Right, just bumming around doing sort of bar work or doing something more serious?  Kate: I did I did I was a waitress for a little bit, but I was very, very bad and was sacked. I I was a model for a little bit, also very bad, very bad at that too.   Adam: Why were you so bad at that?   Kate: Because because I really don't like having my photograph taken and I really like food.  Adam: Yes, OK well I would I would have guessed I could have advised you that wasn't the career for you.  Kate: So so the two things, yeah, didn't really weren't terribly compatible to that. But I then got a job as a cook and a driver on a safari, and I drove a truck aged 19, having never really been out of Berkshire, from Cape Town, through Botswana and into Zimbabwe. And and then I hitched back to Cape Town. So I had a a real adventure. But what I what it really did for me was, having had this very sort of unconsciously wild childhood, I don't mean you know lots of parties and taking drugs I mean, a natural wild childhood, I then went to a place where the natural world was was so extraordinary and so mindblowing, and on a scale, you know, everything was was was like technicolour. You know, the birds were amazing. The the you know the the the size of the animals, the proliferation of the wildlife, the size of the landscapes, the emptiness and I think it was that journey that turned my mind to really re-look and re-examine the natural world and think it's, you know, it's extraordinary, it's it's mind blowing in every way and so even though I then came back and thought I want to have this sort of career in telly what I really wanted to do in my career in telly was work for the natural history unit.  Adam: Right. And is that what you did?  Kate: No. Not initially anyway.  Adam: OK, but you have done, I mean you've done nature programmes, lots of nature programmes. What did you first start doing?  Kate: We're going down here. I have. So I first started sweeping streets in the East End.  Adam: In EastEnders?  Kate: No, in the East End, no. I was a runner so I basically got jobs wherever I could get jobs and I got a job on a commercial that happened to be shooting in the East End and they needed the streets swept and so that was one of my jobs. But had no plans to be on the telly that that really did happen by mistake.  Adam: I think you know my first job in telly. I don't know if you remember That's Life with Esther Rantzen. Do you remember they she always had rude, funny vegetables?   Kate: I do, yes  Adam: That was my job to find them, yeah so only only marginally above the street sweeping.   Kate: Oh my goodness!  Adam: So you got how did you get picked there? I mean, we gotta get back to the natural world. But you've had such such a fantastic life. So I mean, I think people will be fascinated to know you have not much of even a vague plan about what you're doing. You're fumbling about a bit.  Kate: None, yeah. Living in a squat. Eating crisps.  Adam: So yeah, right. So not many models will be will be living like that and eating crisps, I get that You're sweeping streets as your way into telly, all of a sudden you're on telly. How did that happen, was that more of a plan or did someone just turn around and go, hey, you, street sweeper, you'll do?  Kate: No, it wasn't. So I had I had graduated from street sweeper, so it took about probably four four or five years I have become by now a sort of senior researcher. And I got a job at the BBC. My first job at the BBC on a programme called Animal Hospital.  Adam: Right. Yes. And you were still a researcher there or presenter?  Kate: Yeah, as a researcher. And and I think the reason that I got the job was actually my childhood. Because I think it was the first series, in fact, I think the only series that they did of Animal Hospital in a rural practice. So we went to a practice that didn't just do small animals, pets type animals, but also bigger animals like farm animals and horses and I think the only reason I got the job was that I was the only person they interviewed who knew what to do with something bigger than a hamster.   Adam: Right ok great.  Kate: And I had my own wellies.  Adam: Oh good. Always important for a career in telly, your own wellies, see these are the secrets people wanna know. Good. So you've got your wellies?   Kate: Always really, really important. They are. So I got that job I got that researcher job. And at the end of it, the BBC do this appraisal thing. And they said we thought you were alright, you did OK, will you come back and do the next series and I said I'd absolutely love to. I'd really loved it, absolutely loved it. Can we just pause here a minute because this,  Adam: A sea of wild garlic?  Kate: No, these are bluebells.  Adam: These are bluebells? Oh, sorry. Look at the ignorance here.  Kate: These are bluebells. Well, those white flowers let me show you these because they're beautiful.  Adam: I thought like I I think that's what I thought was wild garlic shows you *unintelligible* OK, we've got a proper safari expert.  Kate: No. So look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, first bluebell starting to unfurl except my dog's just walked all over it. Come on you're not supposed to walk on there.  Adam: So this is, all of this is bluebells?  Kate: So all of this will be bluebells and in about 3 weeks time you get this absolutely, it's so blue it's like the colour actually detaches itself from the flowers and floats above it in this sort of glorious mist, it's beautiful. But this these flowers here I love. And these are these are one of the flowers along with celandines which are the kind of waxy yellow flowers that people will see in woodlands and even in their gardens at this time of year, these are wood anemones. And they are lovely, very delicate white flowers with these slightly sort of hand-like leaves and the lovely thing about these, they're not looking at their best at the moment because it's been quite a wet day. But when the sun's out, they open to the sun like these brilliant white stars. And sometimes there are areas around here where you'll see carpets of wood anemones and they're one of the first I've seen these as early as January, although not this year because we had lots of frosts.  Adam: It's funny you, you, you, you use the word magical I'm just looking at this tree with covered in moss and everything, there is something magical about these sorts of places, a sort of sense of, sense of, a Tolkien type moment isnt there?.  Kate: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've I I don't think it is a coincidence that lots of fairytales are set in woodlands because there is something otherworldly about them. We're going to head keep heading down just so that you have a really good climb on the way up.  Adam: Yeah, I was gonna say I'm fine going down, I'm assuming you're sending a car to pick me up? It's well a little, a little Uber will just I'm sure,   Kate: Nice try, Adam! Lots of Ubers around here. Look, look, look.   Adam: Oh look now that is OK that's a proper bluebell.  Kate: That is a, a, a bluebell that's a proper bluebell.  Adam: Yeah, that is my first proper bluebell of the year.  Kate: And you can see all the others are just starting to come.  Adam: And that's and it is lovely because clearly so few people come here that's the problem often with bluebells is when people trample all over them. And we've got just one clean path down here and it's completely undisturbed for as far as the eye can see. So yes, we OK, we we did a little pit stop for bluebells. We're back on and the what was the programme, animal?  Kate: Animal Animal Hospital.  Adam: Animal Hospital. So they wanted you back as a researcher. I'm interested in the jump from behind the screen to on screen.  Kate: So so they basically said lovely we'll see you in four months and I said oh well, I've got a landlord and rent to pay, I can't not work for four months. I'm going to have to get another job and it may mean that I'm not available. And they said ohh well, maybe we can find you something else within the BBC as a stopgap. And I had also at that point, so this is the mid 90s now, started writing. I was writing travel. And I'd spent at the the a end of a a, the second Africa trip that I did between 94 and 95, I'd spent the last two months of that in Madagascar.  Adam: Right.  Kate: Madagascar was a place that I was obsessed with because of its wildlife because it has unique flora and fauna. I came back and got an article commissioned to write about it, and it was the first,  Adam: Your first commission?  Kate: Yes, my first commission and my first article, and it was in a broad a broadsheet newspaper, and I was very excited and very proud about that. And so when I was asked by the series producer of the BBC Holiday programme, whether I would consider coming to work for them because I was a travel writer,  Adam: Right OK, yeah, you're now a travel writer because of your one article.  Kate: I am I am now a I am now a travel writer on the strength of one of one article.  Adam: Whoa oh Kate, I'm so glad you were the first person to sort of go over *Kate laughs* That was before me I just want that on record.   Kate: Yeah.   Adam: OK so I haven't gone over yet.   Kate: You haven't got over yet.   Adam: OK. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.  Kate: Yes. So I got a job on the BBC Holiday programme. Anyway the next day I got called into the big boss's office. And I assumed that my short lived career at the BBC Holiday programme was about to be ended because I wasn't quite sure why, but perhaps because I hadn't been taking the producers guidelines as seriously as I might and that also I had smoked on a fire escape, which probably wasn't a good idea. And instead I was asked to do a screen test and I assumed that this was the sort of common test that the Holiday programme did and I tried to say I really don't want to be a presenter thank you, I love doing, I love making the programmes, I love the research, I love talking to people, I love putting things together. I'm quite, I like logistics. I'm quite, you know, I like all that stuff I don't want to be a presenter. And they went well do a do a screen test. So at this point I just thought I've just got to get out of this office because I feel very embarrassed by the whole situation. So I will just nod smile say yes, do it, it'll be a disaster, and then everything can go back to normal. So that's what I did. Three weeks later, the boss came into the office,  Adam: Sorry, we have to stop. This is a story that's gonna last all day, cause I keep stopping because your dog is posing or it was posing beautifully by this river.  Kate: Well, so this river is an important, one of the sort of parallel streams that run into the River Wye for this is the Angidy, we are in the Angidy Valley, surrounded by amazing woodland on both sides, it's a very steep sided valley. This river is particularly good for dippers, which are those lovely chocolate brown and white birds, they look like little waiters.  Adam: Right *laughs*  Kate: And they and they, they're called dippers because that's exactly what they do. So we'll keep an eye out because we might see some, but they'll sit on a stone like that exposed stone within the waterfall there and they will jump into the water and literally completely submerge. They'll disappear completely and they're looking for things like caddisfly larva, which is what they feed on, and then they'll bob up and come back up and they're they're just these wonderful, perky, very smart little birds.  Adam: Brilliant, OK.  Kate: They're the only British songbird that is also a water bird.  Adam: Wow, OK, good. All right.   Kate: There you are, little bit of, little bit of,  Adam: No, I like these these these sorts of diversions we take, it's it's almost like doing a stand up routine, so we're gonna go gonna go back to the story now. So you thought everybody in the world gets a screen test. So I'm just doing this and then they'll leave me alone.  Kate: Yes, yes. And and then the boss came into the office about 3 weeks later. And she said, can you go to France tomorrow? And I said yes, of course, assuming that they needed somebody to carry the heavy stuff. Bhcause carrying heavy stuff is the other thing that I am good at. I can whistle very loudly and I can carry very heavy things and those are really the only two things that I can offer the world.  Adam: OK, I I you, you have set yourself up for a big whistle at the end, so we'll we'll wait for that then let's hold out.  Kate: It it will blow your ears well, that's all I'm saying. So she said, we want you to present a film on a barge in Normandy, could you please do something about my hair, she said. My own hair.  Adam: I see she didn't ask you to be a hairdresser? Also could you cut my hair?  Kate: Yes could you cut my hair *laughs*. No, could you do something about your hair, she said. I thought she's been talking to my mum, who constantly despairs of my lack of my lack of grooming.  Adam: Right, also right at this point of hair hair disasters, we have to pause because we've come across as you may hear an extraordinary small waterfall, it's a weir, really, isn't it?   Kate: It is really.  Adam: I'm gonna take another photo of this before we get back to the life and misadventures of Kate Humble. So I'm just gonna take a photo. You'll find that, no doubt on one of our Twitter feeds. Oh, I know beautiful, oh no the dogs disappeared, the dog doesn't like posing for me. But all right, so now, you're off to France. You need a haircut and,  Kate: So I'm off to France. I need I need I need to basically smarten myself up. Off I went to France and presented my first film.  Adam: Right. And that was, I mean, we could talk about this forever, but that was the beginning of that was the beginning of this, the story. OK, well, amazing.  Kate: Yes. My first job for the natural history unit came in 2000. And I was asked to do a programme, which was a sort of, was made in response to Blue Planet. So the very first series of the Blue Planet, which I think everybody watched with their mouths open because we had never seen the oceans in that way before, particularly the deep ocean. And there was a phrase used which I have used many, many times since, which was that more people have been to the moon than there have been to the deep ocean. And people were fascinated by these, they were they were creatures that looked like they might have been designed for Star Wars. They were so extraordinary.  Adam: These sort of angler fish which have which have this light don't they.  Kate: That sort of thing, and these these, you know, these astonishing, you know, plankton with flashing lights, there were Dumbo octopus with, you know, little octopus with these sort of literally did look like Dumbo the elephant, you know, deep water sharks that people had never seen before that were really slow moving and and, you know astonishingly well-adapted to live at depths and in in at water pressure that no one thought anything could exist in and come on dogs we're gonna keep, do you wanna have a,  Adam: And so yours was a response, in what way?   Kate: So we did a live,  Adam: The dogs keep looking at me like they want me to throw something for them is that what's going on?  Kate: They do, and I'm going to just try and find a, here let's try let's try this, here we are.  Adam: Look, they're very, oh you've thrown it into the river?   Kate: Go on, in you go.  Adam: Oh, look at that go!  Kate: Come on Teg, do you wanna go in as well? Here you are. This one's going to sink, go on. Ready? Go. Good girl. Where's it gone? Teggy, it's just there. That's it. Well done, well done, dogs.  Adam: Oh they like that.  Kate: Well, I can't go and get it, you have to bring it here, that's the deal with sticks *laughs* So we did a live programme from a boat in Monterey Bay. I made some films to play into that live show. So I went to the Cayman Islands, which is a rotten thing to ask anybody to do, can you imagine?  Adam: Terrible, terrible. You wanted to be back in the East End really.  Kate: I did really, sweeping streets and instead there I was, doing films about coral reefs and this is the one of, this is the wonderful thing about the natural history unit or just about making films with animals is the lengths that you have to go to to be able to capture the natural world in all its wonder. And so I was asked to go and film a shark called a six gill shark that lives very deep and only about 10 people in the world had ever seen. And I was sent to go and find this creature. You know, I can't I can't even now I can't really believe that I was asked to do that.   Adam: And did you find it?  Kate: Eventually. We had to do two, we did one trip we failed to find it,   Adam: How how long was that?  Kate: So that was, we did 6 dives. It was an amazing trip. We didn't get the shark on the first trip. We went back for another trip. We didn't get it. We didn't get it. We finally got it and it was incredible. Incredible moment. And that was the first job that I did for the natural history unit and there was then somebody who came up with the idea of doing British wildlife life live at kind of springtime, like kind of now.   Adam: And this was Springwatch was it?  Kate: This was the precursor to Springwatch.   Adam: Oh I didn't know there was one.  Kate: There were two!  Adam: What were they called?  Kate: So the first one was called Wild In Your Garden. So I'm just going to put the dogs on a lead here. Hold on, poppet. Just hold on my poppet. That's it. We've got to take Adam up the hill now. So yes, so the first one was called Wild In Your Garden and it was Bill Oddie and Simon King and me. And we did two shows a night, from gardens in Bristol, and it sort of worked as an idea.  Adam: Right. OK.  Kate: It worked well enough or it wasn't so much of a disaster that there wasn't a thought of let's try it slightly differently, maybe on a farm instead of in the garden, and we went to this wonderful organic farm in Devon and basically made camp for three weeks. And made a series called Britain Goes Wild. And Britain went a tiny bit wild. And so the following year we thought, well, we'll do it again, but maybe we'll just call it something different.  Adam: Right.  Kate: And someone came up with the idea of calling it spring watch and everyone said, and it always went out at the same time as it does now, sort of end of May and people go, it's not really spring though is it? And we're like, well spring enough, still spring things happening and Springwatch seemed to capture everybody's imaginations and and I presented that for 10 years.  Adam: And you presented that for how many, how many years?  Kate: Ten.  Adam: Blimey! That's a long,  Kate: Yeah, I know. I've just grown old on telly and then Autumnwatch came into being and then Winterwatch and I did Seawatch. So I did a series about British Britain's seas and and marine life. Yeah. So I did eventually get my wish of working for the natural history unit.  Adam: Oh, that's very good. The fairy godmother in the form of the BBC descended and granted your wish. And now from all of those adventures abroad and on TV and everything you then said, I'm gonna move to this really quite, there's another car coming, quite quite remote parts of Wales. Why that?  Kate: We're going to head up here. Hold on, dogs. There we are.  Adam: Oh there's some steps. Hallelujah.  Kate: OK, only for this little bit.  Adam: Look, stop stop taking away the hope.  Kate: *laughs* So so I we moved,  Adam: Yes so you you picked up sticks and then moved to Wales. Perhaps it's not such a big move because the natural world has seemed to be always the centre of things for you. So but why Wales in particular?  Kate: Well, that is a curious question. I had no connection with Wales as far as I was aware. I honestly honestly can't tell you why I felt this extraordinary pull to live here. But it really was it was like a magnetic pull. There is actually a a Welsh word and I'm not sure I'm really allowed to use it in my context, but I can't think of a better word to use for the feeling that I had. And it's hiraeth and is a word that it's sort of more than home sickness. It's like a deep longing for the place that you belong. A yearning, a pit of the stomach emptiness for your home.  Adam: You felt this was a spiritual home, did you?   Kate: I don't know I really don't know, Adam. I, as I say I just had this extraordinary pull to live here. And yeah, I would look at the, there are these old fashioned things called maps, and I would look at the A to Z of Great Britain. And you know, there I was in the South East and if you look at a thing called a map,  Adam: Yes, sorry is this a point about me getting lost on the way to you.   Kate: No no not even remotely. No, it's the fact that no one uses them anymore, and yet, they're the greatest treasures we have. So if you look at a map, the South East of England is just this chaos of colour and roads and towns and names. And it's just, you know, there's not a square millimetre that hasn't got a name in it or something in. The further west you go, the browner the map becomes, and when you go over the border into Wales, it's mainly brown and green and it's got beautiful lyrical names like Abergavenny and and it's got mountains and mountains, when you've been brought up in Berkshire mountains are the height of exoticism. To live in a in a country that had mountains all of its own just struck me as being remarkable. I still, 15 years on, find it remarkable that I can I can get up at breakfast, not go terribly far, and climb a bona fide mountain. I love that. And that's what I love about Wales.  Adam: And and you've done more than, I mean, people might feel that and move to a beautiful part of the country and live there and more or less carry on with their ordinary life. But you've not done that. I mean, you're not just you don't just go for walks, the natural world is something you've created a a new career out of as well. Is that fair?  Kate: I wouldn't call it a career.  Adam: OK but you're very much well, but you make money from it and it fills your days.   Kate: Well, no, no, I don't think I don't know I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's true at all. I think you know I my working life is peculiar. I've I still am involved making television programmes, some of which involve the natural world. I still write, some of that's about the natural world, but not all of it. The natural world for me is nothing to do with making a living. Making a living. But it is about living. And it was one of the things that I was acutely aware of when I lived in London was I felt cut off from the seasons. This year you know, I know I can tell you that I didn't hear a skylark until the middle of March last year it was Valentine's Day. I can tell you that because that's what I'm experiencing. And I love feeling that instead of the natural world being something I watch on the television or I read about in a book that I am able to be part of it. And that's one of the big problems I think that we face now with trying to engage people with the importance of things like biodiversity, species loss, habitat loss. None of those things sound very sexy, and none of those things appear to matter to us because we as a species so weirdly and inexplicably view ourselves as a species separate from the natural world and the natural world has become something that we just watch for our entertainment. But we are just another mammal in this amazingly complex, beautiful, brilliant web that is the biodiversity web, where everything fits in and everything works together, and one thing feeds another thing and you know, until we feel properly part of that, immersed in it and and wrapped up in it, why are we ever going to worry about the fact that it is now a biodiversity net that's full of holes, and those holes mean that the net becomes less and less effective and the less effective that net becomes, the more it affects us, but we see ourselves as somehow immune from that process and we're not. And what I love about living here, what I love about walking in this area every day, twice a day, is the fact that I feel that I can, I'm I'm more in tune with our natural world and that is sadly, it shouldn't feel a it shouldn't be a privilege, but it is.  Adam: And do you feel, I mean, you're you feel passionate about it. Do you feel evangelical about it?  Kate: Yes.   Adam: So what do you, do you have a prescription to help to bring others on side?  Kate: I wish it didn't, I wish you didn't have to ask me that question. I wish it didn't have to be an on side.  Adam: Do you do you feel that's an unfair question? Or do you think there's?  Kate: No, I don't. I think it's a very fair question because lots of people don't feel or don't perhaps don't experience it experience the advantages of the natural world, or they haven't been they haven't been given the opportunities to properly understand the impact that it can have on us and all those impacts are positive. I mean, there's loads of science. And you know, it was talked about endlessly during the pandemic about how green spaces are good for our mental health, blue spaces are good for our mental health, being outdoors, being in nature, listening to birdsong, sing plants grow, all those things are good for us. But we've got to a place where we've been so divorced from it, where we look for our pleasures in shopping malls and online and and we forget that actually all we need is right here. And, you know, it's a hard sell for some to to somebody who's never experienced this, who hasn't had the privileges I've undoubtedly had, you know who have not grown up in the countryside, who find it fearful or boring or inexplicable, don't understand where they fit in.  Adam: And I think one of the perhaps growing debates, I think or interesting ones anyway for me is is the balance between trying to either scare people or make them aware of the environmental challenges and potential for disaster. And then so to sort of go engage with the subject it's really it's really newsworthy, it's it's it's imperative people do things and actually turning people off going well we're we're all going to literally burn, enjoy the party whilst it lasts. So what what do you feel about that?  Kate: Yeah, yeah. I mean, all all, all you have to do, all you have to do is watch Don't Look Up. Have you seen that film?   Adam: Yes.  Kate: And and and that, you know, absolutely embodies what you have just said.  Adam: So what do you think about that? Because I think there's a balance between going, offering hope, the power or audacity of hope is a phrase one hears as opposed to the sort of potential to frighten people into action. Actually the opposite, don't frighten them into action. Offer them hope of change. And I wonder where you feel that, if we've got that balance right, or whether,  Kate: No, we haven't got it right and I, but I don't know what the balance is because I think there's a real, I think that a lot of programmes that are made about natural history now have become so glossy and so beautiful and and so almost otherworldly that they don't actually reflect the reality of the natural world. And a lot of them again show the natural world without the context of people. And of course, that's sort of how we want to see it, we don't want people muddying those pictures. We don't want, as you say, the kind of the awful stories of the litter and the, you know, the the, the, the negative impact that human have humans have had on the natural environment. So we kind of don't want to see it, but equally if we don't see it, we don't engage with it and we kind of can watch one of those documentaries and even if David Attenborough is telling you that, you know, this is a habitat that's in peril or this is the last animal of its type that you will ever see, you don't really take that in because you're looking at these really stunning pictures and you think it's kind of OK. But I don't know what the answer is because I also know that as you say, if all you peddle is hopelessness and helplessness, no one's going to engage, they're going to stick their heads in the sand and just hope that it all goes away and pass it on to the next generation. So somehow we as communicators need to find a way that really does cut through. That really does make people feel, genuinely feel part of the natural world, that it isn't just another thing. I had the great joy of interviewing Tim Peake not that long ago, and I was interviewing him for a book that I'm writing about the concept of home. And I thought he would have, of anybody, a really unique idea of home having not just left home but left the planet. And he told me that he did a spacewalk, he was out in space for over four hours, and he said the blackness is like a blackness you cannot imagine. But he said, you know, you see Mars and Jupiter and Venus and you see Earth. And he said, when you're there, amongst the planets in that way you see that Earth is, as far as anyone's experience, and any telescope has been able to tell us, unique. You look at it and he said there it is, this colour, this blue and green planet, whereas everything else is, you know silver and and ghostly, ours is a living planet and he said he had this, he had this sort of feeling when he was there looking at Earth and imagining somebody, some other being coming up and tapping him on the shoulder and saying hey, hi,  who are you? I'm Tim. And he'd say oh hello so where are you from then? And Tim said I felt this enormous swell of pride to be able to point to our planet and say I'm from that planet there. I'm from Earth. I'm an earthling and I thought if all of us had that experience, could understand what it was like, how special our planet is in a universe that is infinite as far as we know and that we have, we have no idea what's out there, but what we do know at the moment is that our planet is unique and I think we would treasure it that much more and have moments like this of just standing amongst the trees and midges coming out, the drizzle, the mud and go, this is our home, this is where we live. It's really special. Aren't we lucky?  Adam: You're taking me uphill again aren't you.  Kate: I am taking uphill, but you've done the worst bit and you and and actually you marched. I was impressed!  Adam: Oh OK good. You know I'll fall apart after, I'm just doing it so I don't embarrass myself too badly.  Kate: *laughs* I'm afraid it is going to get very, very muddy, so you're going to have wet socks, mud up to your knees, you know, that's why I spend six months of the year in wellies.  Adam: Right OK. But you know, that is the privilege of being an earthling, isn't it?   Kate: It is it is.  Adam: So you've been you've got involved with the Woodland Trust.  Kate: I've been involved with the Woodland Trust for quite a long time, but it really started when we took on a farm near here.  Adam: What's this an arable farm?  Kate: No, it was a small council farm. It belonged to the council and people are not really aware that there are such a thing.   Adam: I've never heard this one.  Kate: No, but there used to be about 16,000 council farms throughout Britain and they were set up as part of the 1906 Smallholdings and Allotments Act and they were there, low rent, small areas, usually 30, 40 acres that sort of size and they would be available to rent for farmers who for whatever reason, didn't have a farm of their own. And over the years, as farming practices have changed as economic models have driven farmers to need to to produce things on a bigger scale, small farms have been basically relegated to either hobby farms or they've been broken up and sold to land that's been added to bigger farms. So we've lost an enormous number of these small farms and with them an enormous opportunity for people with farming skills to stay on the land and produce as food. And that's what was going to happen to this farm. And for whatever reason, I just felt this was not the thing to do and to cut a very, very, very long story short, we ended up taking over the farm and setting up a rural skills centre o prove that a small farm, ours is just over 100 acres, could still be viable. It supports itself and that's really important. But one of the things that we wanted to do, we were really interested to do when we took it over was to add more trees. It's it's got some wonderful ancient trees. There's an oak tree on the farm that we call Old Man Oak, as did the tenants before us. They introduced us to him and we think he's about 600 years old. And but we wanted to plant more trees. But we had this conundrum of how do we increase the tree cover on the farm without taking away the pasture because obviously we needed the pasture for the livestock and it was the Woodland Trust that helped us with that conundrum. So they looked, together we walked round the farm and we identified either areas where there were small copses or where there was a bit of a hedge. So what we did with the Woodland Trust's advice and input was to put in trees as shelter breaks, so not actually impinging on the pasture, just or very much, but adding a kind of a thicker bit of hedge if you like, or making a copse a little bit bigger and in that way we've planted over 1,000 trees on the farm in the last decade that we've had it. And then at home we have a four acre small holding and and so at the beginning of last year I started thinking maybe it's an age thing, you start thinking about legacy and when you when you take over a piece of land, what you start to understand actually very quickly is that you will never own it, that you are simply the caretaker of it for the time that you are around. And I think we've got cleverer now. Our knowledge has become greater. We understand that just planting trees isn't the answer. We need to think about we need to think of landscape as a mosaic and so what we wanted to do was to create a little mosaic. Plant trees, create water or make a space for water, make sure that there was going to be areas that had glade that was good for insects, that was good for wild flowers. And so I talked to the Woodland Trust and said, are you going to be into this idea, because it's not just planting trees and they went, that's exactly what we're into. That's exactly what we want to do. We want to create habitat. It's not about blanketing a landscape with trees. It's about planting the right trees in the right places at the right density to create something that you know, in a generation's time will have real lasting value, and that's what's been so wonderful about working with, you know, an organisation like that that sees big picture, sees longevity as as an advantage rather than as a disadvantage. And and that's what's been so lovely is that, you know, I can go to them and say so I've got this plan. I mean, I'm not even going to be alive to see it kind of come to fruition but do you care? And they went, we don't care, do you care? No. Let's do it. And that's wonderful.  Adam: Wonderful. OK sorry, this is a bit, this is the bit where I'm going ohh well, I'm swimming effectively swimming now.  Kate: Sorry. This is a very wet bit.  Adam: Hold on a second. OK. Right. That's a very Norman Wisdom walk I seem to have. OK. Yeah. OK, so ohh sorry, hold on.  Kate: It gets, that's the that's the wettest bit now, now we're now we're more or less home and dry.  Adam: Oh well you know what we we might be home, but we are not dry. That would be inaccurate at this point. So well, that's a neat story to bring us back to home with isn't it. So you know things are looking good. It's all hopeful. A a long journey and a long one ahead, you know, not just for you, but for that natural world you're creating.  Kate: Well, I hope that you know the the I I think going back to to what you said about how we can, we can help us all feel that we are actually, you know part and parcel of the natural world rather than observers of it or visitors of it and things like planting trees or being aware of the seasonal joys of the bluebells coming through, or, you know the leaf fall in the autumn and the colour, all those things if if i you know if we can build that awareness that brings with it huge joy and reward, then maybe we'll start to cut through again and people will start to feel more like the natural world is their world and not just another part of the planet that they live on.  Adam: Well having arrived back at Kate's home, let me just say there are lots more woodland walk podcasts for you to enjoy wherever you get your podcasts from. And indeed, if you want to find an actual wood near you well, you can go to the Woodland Trust website www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

I met the Yonder Oak Wood team back in March to discover how this landscape will be transformed for people and wildlife, and what designing a new wood involves. The vision is to attract plentiful wildlife with healthy habitat that offers refuge from weather extremes and fights climate change. The local community has been involved from the off - volunteer Sally Burton joins us to explain what she gets up to, how excited everyone is about the future and what volunteering means to her. We also hear of efforts to make the site more sustainable, from re-usable fences to tree guard trials, and I get my hands dirty planting a tree. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Well, today I'm off to, well, the wonderfully named Yonder Oak Wood. And although it's called a wood, it's not really a wood yet. This is a very exciting project, but it's in the very early stages of creation. It's near Exmouth in Devon. The Woodland Trust plans on planting, I think something like 13,000 trees there, creating a new environment for nature and wildlife to bounce back. Sounds a great place to go, I'm going to meet a few people there. First off, though, is my contact at the Woodland Trust today, Rachel Harries. Rachel: So this site is Yonder Oak Wood, it's not quite a wood yet, as you can see, but the Woodland Trust bought it in March last year with the aim of creating, creating a new wooded landscape here. So it's 54 hectares, we think it is the biggest woodland creation site that the Trust has done in the South West in in 20 years, so 54 hectares, that's equivalent to about 100 football pitches, and it sits on the sort of two sides of a hidden valley, just a couple of miles inland from the South Coast of Devon. So where we're stood, we can actually see out to the mouth of the Exe estuary, to Dawlish and and possibly to Torquay there as well. Adam: I I think you can just see the estuary over there can't you, just beyond that last bunch of trees is that right? Rachel: You absolutely can, yeah, you absolutely can. And actually the other day when I was here, I saw a white bird fly over that was an egret that was obviously based in the estuary, so really exciting. Adam: And why, now this site, I happen to know is, it it's quite important because of the anniversary and just explain to me, explain to me a little bit about that. Rachel: That's right. Last year was the 50th anniversary of the Woodland Trust and the first site that our founder Ken Watkins ever bought was in Devon. So it's really emblematic that we are now creating a new woodland, probably I think it's about 30 miles away as the crow flies from the Avon Valley Woods where we were started. But we're now creating a new woodland in the county of our birthplace, which is incredibly exciting, and we wanted to create something that would have meaning for local people and it would like, it would be tied into the local environment, so we did things like we looked at the name of the stream, we looked at old field names and we came up with a shortlist of names that we could then offer out to the local community and ask them which one, which one they wanted and what they wanted to call this new site. And one of the field names was Yonder Oak Park. And that's really quite special because as you look across the site, you can see all these incredible old oak trees over yonder, off in the distance. So I have to admit that was my favourite but we let the community choose and they voted for Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Right well you're gonna take me on a little walk around here, so just explain to me a little bit about what we're gonna see. Rachel: OK. Well, we're starting here on a sloping field that has old oak trees dotted about the landscape. Some of these are a couple of hundred years old and there's one in particular which we can see just off in the distance, which is one of my, one of my favourites that is standing almost on on stilts. And the stilts are actually its roots that would have once been embedded in a Devon bank, which is a sort of a solid hedgerow that we find in Devon that has trees planted on the top and the hedgerow and the bank has been taken away. So the tree now kind of stands about a metre above the height that it would have once been. Adam: Which one, I can't tell which one that is? Rachel: So can you see there's two in that field over there, we'll walk past it so we can have another look at it. Adam: Yes, I see that, I see that. OK, maybe my eyesight's not very good. So and this goes, these are currently separate fields and there's what a field and then a hedgerow, another field, then another hedgerow, then the tree supposedly on stilts and beyond that what looks like a solar panel farm. So is this the, what will be the new woodland all the way up to the solar panels? Rachel: We've worked to design a mixture of of habitats here, so we have about 5 different fields where we're doing much more intensive planting and that's what people would kind of imagine that would grow into what people would imagine a woodland would look like, but then in some of these other fields, so the field that we're stood in and a couple of other fields that you can kind of see off in the distance there, we're going to do a mix of open space, glades and groves. We'll plant some more of these kind of trees that will be allowed to to thrive and to spread on their own, but we'll also plant a mixture of of scrub and shrubs, so that's more lower growing trees, things like blackthorn, hawthorn dogrose, spindle, just to create a really good mix of habitats for all the birds and insects and bats that we, you know, we know are going to thrive here. Adam: And you, you've arranged for us to meet a a couple of people, haven't you? Rachel: Yeah. So we're going to be walking around with Paul Allen, he's our site manager and we're going to meet Sally Burton, who is one of our volunteers here. Adam: The weather's been kind to us so far, but it is a little nippy so we shouldn't keep them waiting. So do you wanna lead on and we'll go meet them. Rachel: Yes, let's go. Adam: And I'm told there there was some sea shantying going on here, which strikes me as odd because we're not, we're not in the middle of the sea or anything. So what's the story behind that? Rachel: Well, we're not far from the sea. We can see, we can see the, we can see the sea here. But we were contacted by a a group of local acapella singers who were inspired by what we're doing here and had decided to take some modern folk songs and to rewrite them to to reference the wood. So they came out one weekend and they sang to our to all of our planters, but we also talked a little bit about sea shanties, which I like the idea of becoming tree shanties. So they took a traditional sea shanty and they changed the lyrics. So we now have a song all about Yonder Oak Wood that we could sing along to. Adam: Great. And that we're going to hear that now from from you. So here's Rachel with her tree shanty. Is that right? No? Rachel *laughs* I don't think so. Adam: Do you have a recording of it? Rachel: I we do have a recording of it actually, yes. Adam: You never know. I don't know. Maybe a couple of teas or beers later, I might persuade you to sing. Alright. Brilliant, Rachel. Thank you very much. Rachel: Thank you. That's great. So here's Paul. He's the site manager and he's going to take us on a little walk down through Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Paul, thank you very much. Nice to see you. So you are the site manager. Paul: Hello there. I am. Yes, I'm responsible for turning these fields into a wild, wildlife rich area. Adam: OK. Well, go on. Let's lead on. We can have a chat about that. Brilliant. So yeah. So these are early days, Paul. I understand you you are responsible for designing the woodland. What does that actually involve? Paul: So really, I mean the the the first place you you start is is kind of kind of getting a sense of where the place is and what the place is and the the key bit here as we walk through it is you can see these big old oak trees and so we've based a lot of the design on that. So you can picture in the future lots more of these big old trees that will have lots of deadwood, lots of rot holes where birds can nest, and invertebrates burrow in. And the way we're kind of going to maintain it is we're we're going to put animals in and have low intensity grazing and then you kind of build in where the views are. Adam: I mean it must be really exciting because it can't be that often that you you get actually a green field or literally a greenfield site. But it's more or less bare. It's a plain piece of paper for you to design. That's quite, I mean, it's exciting, quite an honour, perhaps a little daunting? Paul: I've I've done probably 30 years of nature conservation and most of what you do is you take bits of habitat and you try and restore them, you try and protect them. You very rarely get a chance to actually create something brand spanking new. It is really phenomenally exciting for all of us, because if you think about it in the future, 100 years time, this place will be on maps. It will be on aerial photographs, you know so not only are we doing stuff that's great for wildlife and great for climate, we're effectively creating history as well, which is an awesome thing to be a part of. Adam: Yeah, so on the map it should say Yonder Oak Wood, brackets Paul Allen. *both laugh* Rachel's in the background going it's my wood, it's my wood. There might be a battle for the name. Paul: I'm I'm doing the design that says it from the sky it'll say Paul was here. *both laugh* Adam: Yes, yes very good, on Google Maps you can, you know, in 100 years time they'll go well how did those trees get planted in the shape of Paul? *laughs* So, OK, look, we're, we're, I've paused because we're at the we're at the top of the hill, almost. So what will happen around us? At the moment there are three or four trees in a line and not much else. So what will be here? Paul: So if you if you picture it in the future, what we'll have is we'll have a a, a a scattering of big old oak trees like we can see across the site and if you look over to our left, you can see an area that actually was the former quarry on the site. But if you look at it, you can see gorse that's currently in flower, even though we're in a freezing day at the beginning of March. And all of that is really good for wildlife. It's got lots of pollen and and nectar and lots of edge that birds and insects really like. And essentially what we're gonna get in the future is a combination of these big old oak trees and that lovely scrubby stuff that's great for wildlife. Adam: So here not too dense? Paul: Not too dense here no, not at all. Adam: So you get the view, you get a nice view and it's a mixed habitat. Paul: You, you, you, you get a view, it's it's very, we've we've constantly said we're creating a kind of a wooded landscape not a wood. Adam: Right. Well, we should carry on walking out, I have a tendency, just not to walk. I can see right over there some white poles which look like tree guards. Which does raise this issue I mean of how you're going to protect the trees because plastic tree guards have become quite controversial. Do you have a plan around that? Paul: Yeah, so we've got we've got, last year the the Woodland Trust decided that it would stop using the virgin plastic tree guards on its sites, which is actually a bit problematic because there aren't really any other types of tree guard that are commercially available at scale, so we're doing a combination of things here. The the main way is we're going to deer fence the site to stop the deer coming in and then we're also in some places we're trialling different types of tree tubes, so we're looking at one at the moment that bizarrely, has been made of sugar beet so it smells like golden syrup when you walk up to it, which is quite weird, and the ones you can see over there are actually recycled from another site. So we're, we're still, we're still using the tree guards that are effectively usable. Adam: Right. You talk about trying to protect the trees from deer. Which does raise the issue of other wildlife. I mean, clearly, we're gonna be hoping that wildlife get attracted into the area once this starts growing. At the moment though, have you have you seen much evidence of sort of new wildlife or any wildlife? Paul: It's still very early days yet. But we've seen lots of buzzards there's there's actually quite a lot of hornets nests in, in the existing oak trees. Adam: Is that a good thing? That sounds terrifying. Paul: *laughs* I I I personally I quite like it. Adam: You're pleased about that, OK. I think a lot of people always feel it takes generations and generations to plant trees. I know I have been at planting events where some young people have planted and said, oh, I think my children and my grandchildren might come to see this tree and then are surprised, actually, they come back to see their own tree and it grows quicker than they might expect. How quickly is this going to develop into anything recognisable as woodland? Paul: So I mean, with within 10 years, it will absolutely look like a woodland, although obviously still a young woodland and different tree species grow at different rates. So the silver birches and the rowans will actually be 6 foot high within two or three years potentially, whereas the the oak trees clearly will grow a lot slower. Adam: Wow, silver birch and rowan, 6 foot high in how long? Paul: Two or three years, if they if they take well. I mean it it it it varies depending on the soil type and all that sort of stuff, but they do grow very, very quickly. Adam: Blimey. And tell me a bit about how you got into all of this. I mean, I know you say you've been doing this a while. Paul: I started well I started off volunteering actually with the British Trust for Conservation Volunteers a long time ago, and I got known by the Norfolk Wildlife Trust and rather randomly, I was having a beer in a pub and they went, do you fancy a job, and I went, alright then. Adam: Very good. So you've learnt on the job about trees? Paul: I I reeducated a few, some time ago but yeah a lot of it was learned as I went along. Adam: I've been very insulting, you've you've probably got a PhD in trees or something. But I do like the idea of, I got my job from a pub, I think I think that's always, I remember a story, so I don't know if you remember a film critic called Barry Norman, he always used to say, I I remember him telling a story, there's a pub around the BBC called, I think it's the White, White Horse or something like that. And he went when he was unemployed, he used to sit there pretending he was writing scripts so that BBC producers would come in for a lunchtime beer, which they don't do anymore, but they used to and they would go, oh, Barry, yeah there's a job we have and he wasn't working at all, he was just trying to be in the pub around and that's how he got his work, so that's clearly not just media, it's it's the tree world as well. Paul: It's it's it's very much very very clearly, a lot harder now than it was, because at that point in time, I guess nature conservation really wasn't a career. Adam: Yeah. We've come across a locked fence, but Paul has a key, there we are. There we are. Into the next next field. Ah, right away. Here's a very different type of fence, and I presume this is to keep the deer out. So first of all, massive fence, is this to keep the deer out? Paul: This is to keep the deer out. Yes, absolutely. And what will happen where we're standing, the hedgerow will creep out into the fence and obviously the wood that we're planting inside will also start to hide the fence. So the fence over time will disappear apart from the gateways. Adam: So I mean, there's a good 7 odd foot here between the hedgerow and the fence. You're saying that that hedgerow will naturally grow another 7 foot? Paul: Yep. So what what what we've got in this hedgerow, actually it's it's it's quite specific to this area is we've got a lot of a lot of small leaved elm and we've also got a lot of blackthorn in it and both of those sucker. So as as we've taken the the the intensive farming off the land the the shrubs will just sucker out and gradually spread into the field. Adam: And look, and we're standing by the main gate and there's a huge tree trunk here, which is holding the post. And I can see the bark coming off. Now is that is that deer trying to get in there do you think? Paul: No, that that's actually that's just part of the process of actually creating the post. Adam: Ohh, that's just that's just me being an idiot. OK, I thought I was being a clever nature detective *laughs* Paul: I mean what one of the one of the key bits about this fence though, is that that the Woodland Trust is now focusing very heavily on sustainability with everything it does. The, the, the reduction in use of plastic is one of those key bits. But these are sweet chestnut posts, so they there's no chemical preservatives in them or anything like that, and they're kind of the the the main posts at the corners, if you like, of the fence. And then we're using a metal fence with metal posts and and the idea is that when the trees have grown up after 20 years and they're no longer a threat from the deer, we can take this and reuse it elsewhere, so we're constantly thinking about that sustainability stuff all the time. Adam: Right. So we're in this more protected field. Which I can see has been laid out actually. Is this for the planting scheme, little posts and sort of lines of rope? Paul: Yeah. So one of the issues with going plastic free is it becomes very difficult to actually see what you've planted. Because if you look at here it just still looks like a field but actually there's somewhere in the region of well around 2 to 3000 trees already in there. Adam: Oh gosh, I didn't realise that. So yes, with the plastic safe, plastic guards on a tree you see these white telescopes sticking up all over the field, so there's thousands of trees here, we just can't see them. Right and a a lot of that has been planted by volunteers? Paul: We've had somewhere in the region of 400-500 members of the public come over four days, so we've got a a set of volunteers who have who've have have they've been brilliant actually, they've come and they've helped kind of manage all the public and they've helped work with the schools, they've helped us set out where the trees are going, we couldn't have done it without them at all. And here is one of our volunteers now, here's Sally. Adam: Brilliant. Alright, well, let's go over and chat to Sally. So Sally. Sally Burton. Hello. So I've heard lots of lovely things about you. So just tell me you're a volunteer, which in this context means what? Sally: Hello. That's nice. All sorts of things. I've helped this in during February with the public planting days and with the school planting days, helped children dig holes, some of the children are too small to get the spade in the ground very easily. I've planted quite a lot of trees myself. Adam: And why why did you get involved? Sally: I'd been looking for a while to volunteer for an organisation that does things outdoors and something a bit physical and so when the Woodland Trust appeared in the village hall I just went up and said do you need volunteers and they said yes please so I signed up straight away. Adam: And I mean, what does it offer you? Why is it a fun thing to do? Sally: I enjoy working with the other people. The staff are great and the other volunteers have been great fun. In fact, I've reconnected with someone I knew a few years ago and she's been helping up here as well, so that's been great. I like being outside, I love being outdoors. I don't mind about the weather. I like doing physical things and it's it's great to see, to make a difference. Adam: So yeah, so what what sort of difference do you feel you're making then? Sally: Well contributing to turning this basically what looks like an empty field into a forest. That's really amazing. People have been very excited about it. Lots of local people came up and planted on the public open days. Everyone's looking forward to being able to come up here and experience it themselves and enjoy the trees and the views obviously the views across the estuary and out to sea are beautiful. And there are lots of birds already. It's a very beautiful place. Adam: And so how much of your time does it actually take up? Sally: Well, during February and the beginning of March, quite a lot, I've been coming up for days, getting here about 8:15 and going home about 4 o'clock. Adam: Right. So why is that, why is that the the busy period? Sally: Because that's when the tree planting has been going on. Adam: First time you've ever planted a tree? Sally: I've planted a couple on my allotment, but certainly the first time I've planted on such a scale. Adam: Right. Have you kept count, how many trees are you in? Sally: No. Well, on one of the public planting days, I'd finished registering people and I planted 25 I kept count of those and on Wednesday this week, a school was in and when they cleared off, I finished planting the trees in their little area. And I think there was about 30 there. I'm not sure I lost count after about 12. Adam: There should be scouts or sort of brownie badges, shouldn't there, I'm I'm 100 tree-er, you know. Very good. Fantastic. Well, look, thank you very much. I can't believe this is the the the the field in which you've planted. Sally: It is, you can't see many of the trees. Adam: I I can't see any of the trees, what do you mean many of them. Ohh a couple yes. Sally: Across there you can see some with leaves on those are sessile oaks which were planted a little while ago, and they show up. Adam: Any of those yours? Sally: Possibly *laughs* They show up because of the leaves. But over there, most of the area there is planted. Adam: OK, brilliant. You're talking about planting, Rachel has appeared over the hill. She's brandishing a erm Sally: A spade. Adam: A spade *laughs* I forgot the name. You can see how ill equipped I am to do this. I forgot the name of what she's, so I think she's tempting us to go plant so let's go off. Adam: *coughs* Sorry, I'm already having a heart attack from the idea of physical exercise, I haven't done anything yet. OK, so we we have a spade and this is a virgin bit of land, no, no trees planted yet? Sally: No trees in this section yet. Adam: So I get the honour of planting the first tree. Sally: The first one. Adam: So you're gonna talk me through this and I'm gonna. Sally: So the first job... Adam: Oh yes alright, I'm already jumping ahead of myself. Sally: The first job is to screef? To screef the area... Adam: What what is what is screefing? Sally: ...which is where you do this to kick away the grass with your shoe to make a square or an area to get rid of the grass, doesn't have to be too big, not much wider than the blade of the spade, put the spade in there, and then don't lift it yet come round that side and make a square on that side. Yeah, cut it down. Then on that side... Adam: I feel I've hit the... Sally: One of the pebbles. And then the final side and then you could probably lever out a lump of turf. Adam: Then I can lift it out. Sally: OK, here's a tree. And we need to make sure when it's in the hole, the soil covers up to just above the top of the the highest root. So if we test that, that's not deep enough, so need to go deeper. Adam: It's not deep enough. Overall, I'm not doing particularly well I have to say. Sally: Let's have a look. That's looking good there. Adam: You think that's all right? Sally: Yeah, that's OK. So the next job is to crumble the soil. Adam: With our hands? Sally: With our hands, back into the hole, loose bits first. Adam: They didn't say I was actually gonna get my hands dirty. Sally: *laughs* And then if you've got any clods that have got grass on them make sure they go in with the grass facing down. Adam: Ok do you know why? Sally: So that the grass will die and then it won't be in competition with the tree as the grass uses a lot of the water. Adam: It's a bit leaning a bit, isn't it? Sally: It is a bit, let's push some more soil in. Adam: You see, it's fine now, in 20 years time, someone will come and go, who the hell planted that tree, it's at 45 degrees! Sally: Then the last job is you stand up. Adam: Yeah, stand up. Sally: And use your heel to press the soil down to push out all the gaps so that it doesn't dry out if it's sunny. Adam: And how compact, we don't want to make it too compact. Sally: Quite firm, quite firm. Adam: Yeah? Do you know what I don't, I feel that's leaning, that's no good. Sally: Don't worry, it'll straighten itself up. And the final thing is you do the tug test. Where you just get hold of it and just pull it gently. And if it stays where it is, then it's planted properly. Adam: I name this tree, well and truly planted. Sally: Congratulations. Adam: Thank you very much. Very good. That's brilliant. Well, I have to say although me and Sally were planting, Rachel and Paul were looking were looking on. So Paul's still here, how did I do? Paul: Well, let me just check, shall I? Adam: *laughs* You're doing the tug test. Paul: It's it's been really fun actually with with, with the the the public when you come and kind of just check it, you can see them all hold their breath to make sure they're doing it right. Adam: And it comes out *laughs* Is it alright? Paul: No, it's grand. Absolutely brilliant. Dog rose it, it's a little bit crooked, but you know dog rose will naturally straighten itself up. Adam: Will it correct itself? Paul: Yeah and it's kind of you can already see it's a bit of a straggly thing and it'll do its thing and it'll be fine. Adam: Fantastic. What is your sense, really, of of what this might be in the future and how exciting is that for you? Paul: I think in the future, you know, we're we're we're we've got something here that at the very beginning that is gonna be hopefully really important for wildlife and that most of the design is about trying to get as much wildlife here as possible because we're close to the pebblebed heaths it will it will act as a little bit of a refuge in the heat as potentially the climate heats up in the future and that's all really brilliant. And then the other exciting bit is the fact that we've started from the beginning with people involved. That, that, that scenario, but when you look in the future, the you know the the trees that we're planting today are going to be like these big old oak trees in 3-4 hundred years time that when you get your head around it is really quite amazing. And these trees and this wood will be on maps in in the future, and you know, we're creating history, we're changing landscapes and it's all such a a positive thing to be involved in. Adam: That is amazing that in 3-4 hundred years there'll be a woodland here, the history of who planted it, the history of us being here today will be lost. They won't know who planted these trees perhaps, they won't know the story, but the trees will be here. They'll be there, they'll tell their own story in the future. It's an amazing thing to be part of isn't it. Paul: Yeah and you know if if you think about how many times do you get to do something that will still be here in three, four, 500 years time? That's just incredible. Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you and don't have any idea of where to look, do go to the Woodland Trust website and its woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, so that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Discover the secrets to unlocking employee engagement in this eye-opening episode of the Count Me In Podcast. Join us as we welcome Sarah Rubenstein, Chief Accounting Officer at Clearway Energy, as she shares valuable insights into employee engagement, strategies to transform disengaged employees, and the importance of creating inclusive communities within the workplace. Don't miss this chance to learn how to maximize productivity and employee satisfaction in your organization! Connect with Sarah: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-rubenstein-a724632/ Full Episode Transcript:Adam:            Welcome back to Count Me In. In today's episode, we're thrilled to have Sarah Rubenstein, Chief Accounting Officer at Clearway Energy. With us to discuss the crucial role that employee engagement plays in an organization's success.  Sarah brings her extensive experience in cultivating positive work environments to the table. Offering valuable advice on identifying disengaged employees, implementing effective strategies to boost engagement, and the benefits of fostering an inclusive, collaborative workspace. Stay tuned as we uncover the keys to unlocking a happy, productive, and thriving work environment. Adam:            Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the Count Me In podcast, today. We're really excited to have you on, and today we're going to be talking about employee engagement and all that that encompasses. And maybe to start off, maybe, you can start by defining what is employee engagement to you. Sarah:            Sure, to me, employee engagement is how positive people feel about their work, and we measure that in a lot of different ways. But, really, I'm lucky, the company that I work at, we survey our employees every year, regarding employee engagement. And we ask some really good questions that were developed by very smart people at Harvard, and Yale, and Stanford, that tell us how engaged people are.  And, so, we're able to evaluate, and a lot of the questions relate to things like management, leadership, integrity, work-life balance, workload, allocation, autonomy, and things like that. And all of those factors really tell us how engaged our employees are. Adam:            That's interesting, and when you mention engaged, a lot of times when you see discussions about employee engagement. You see engaged employees versus disengaged employees. And, so, maybe we can start by talking about that a little bit. Because you have your engaged employees, and you can usually tell who those are. But the disengaged maybe a little harder to see, or maybe not so hard, depending on what they're not doing, I should say. Sarah:            Yes, sure, and the first indication we have, that some employees are not engaged, is that they don't answer the surveys. So we don't get 100% participation. So that tells us that some people feel like maybe their voice won't be heard, even if they answer. And those people, usually, just have a negative outlook, maybe, on what type of work they're doing or their future within the company.  And, so, a lot of times, you lose the engagement when people feel like there's no career development path for them, or the work that they're doing isn't valuable, or they're not being told that the work that they're doing is valuable. Adam:            And that can be very difficult for an employee, especially, when you don't feel like you can't move up in an organization. How do you take somebody who is disengaged and try to get them to be engaged? Sarah:            That's a great question, and, especially, when you don't have a development path for a person, it is really challenging. And, so, what we try to do is we try to provide a lot of personal and professional development opportunities. And we talk to our employees about how those types of opportunities can help them develop themselves. Whether for this particular company and role or just in general for their career. So we try to offer them opportunities to learn and also to, maybe, work in an area that isn't related to their job.  So we try to look for things we call stretch assignments. Where there might be an opportunity in another group, where someone needs help with a special project, and that might give that individual the opportunity to learn new skills that they can put on their resume, even if it doesn't give them direct path to promotion. So we try to demonstrate what we can offer the employee, even if it isn't upward mobility, and that maybe we can't keep them forever, but we can keep them a little bit longer, and that helps us overall. Adam:            Yes, because it shows that you care and that you're engaging with them, even though they seem to be disengaged. And, so, it encourages them, even if there is no upper mobility at that moment. Sarah:            Right, because everyone is looking for some type of personal development, even if they don't see a future for themselves at that company. So we try to offer something for everyone. If you don't see yourself as a leader at this company, that's okay, we'll work with you on how you can make yourself a better employee and a better person. So that, at least, we can keep you around, and have you feel happy to be working at the company for the time being. Adam:            Mh-hmm, that makes a lot of sense. So maybe we can focus a little bit on what are some benefits, to organizations, to creating an engaging environment? Sarah:            I haven't read all of the studies, but there are numerous studies that show that engaged employees are better employees, they're more productive. Of course, we know that hiring new employees, and training them, and getting them up to speed is very expensive and time-consuming. And, so, it benefits us to take the time to develop programs to promote employee engagement. Because, overall, we end up with better productivity and just a better workforce. Adam:            I mean, that makes a lot of sense to want to have a better workforce, especially, when they're engaged. And, so, maybe, we can talk a little bit about what do you need to look for, especially, when your team is not engaged. Are there certain signs that you can look for? Obviously, you mentioned you can tell people are not engaged when they're not taking a survey. But then what are other signs that you can look for, within your team, if you can talk a little bit about that? Sarah:            Yes, no problem, I think, there are  a couple of different signs that I look for. Generally, I look for people who aren't participating in the conversations, who don't speak up in meetings. People who have been doing the same work for an extended period of time. And, of course, you look for the signs of people who are not responsive. They're taking a long time to reply to emails or teams' messages.  Those are all signs we look for, for people who aren't engaged. And then we really try to find ways to bring them into the conversation. To make them feel like we're committed to their success, and that we're interested in having them as part of the conversation. Adam:            Do you think that having engaged people with the not so engaged people, connecting them together, that can help drive or improve a team? Sarah:            I definitely do. Maybe one other thing I'll say about employees who aren't engaged is they tend to leave. So, really, our primary focus on employee engagement started when, and I won't say it started, we've always had a focus on it. But we renewed that focus when the great resignation occurred. We were hearing about that.  It didn't really happen at my company. But we were very concerned that once everyone was out of sight, out of mind, working remote from home, people might start to feel disengaged when they're working on their own. Without interacting with others. They might start to look at other jobs online while they're at home and things like that.  So we really wanted to focus on making sure that didn't happen. So we started some programs that were designed, specifically, to promote employee engagement. And one of those was a mentoring program within the accounting department.  So we matched up individuals who were at lower levels with our managers and directors, so that the managers and directors could give the staff-level folks an idea of how they could get to that level. And also they could just give them the ability to communicate with someone they didn't work with all the time. So that they would feel more engaged in the overall department, and not just able to speak with their direct supervisor and their specific team. Adam:            That's great. Mentorship is a huge way of connecting different departments, different people, within an organization. And it also helps people feel like they're part of a community. Because a lot of times corporate structures feel like a prison, in a lot of ways, with the fluorescent lights and everything. And it sounds like you guys are building a sense of community. Has that been what you're looking to do? Sarah:            Yes, definitely, I would say there were two very large parts of our program were communication. So making sure that we had adequate amounts of communication across the department, and within the specific teams, and then collaboration, in general.  So having a team's channel for our whole department, where people could even just share a photo of their pet or something funny that they wanted to share. So that people do feel like they're part of a broader community and not just a small, little, group. And, then, I'll say that I'm very fortunate, I work for a company that is committed to diversity, equity, and inclusion.  And, so, two years ago we started inclusion groups, and those have been a really big help in employee engagement and in helping people feel like they're part of a community. So I will say for companies that don't have inclusion groups, yet, I think, it really is a big benefit to employees. Adam:            Can you, maybe, talk a little bit more about the inclusion groups? What does that look like? Sarah:            Sure, so, typically, they're focused around a specific group. So we have a women's inclusion group. A veterans' inclusion group. We have a Latinx inclusion group, things like that. But it's to give employees, across the company, the ability to connect with people that they relate to and then also the ability to share with the whole organization, the things that are important to that inclusion group.  And, so, it's really been great, both, for bringing employees together with people that they relate to. And, then, also, making them able to share that with the whole company and educate them on the issues that are important to them. So it has been really great in bringing our whole community together. Adam:            That's awesome, that's a great way of connecting people and also helping to educate the greater community, as well. Because a lot of times, if you only are focused on what you know, you never get to experience or understand what other people's experiences are, which helps you understand the human condition better. Sarah:            Right. And the other thing that's nice about the inclusion groups is that they have executive sponsorship. So the issues that are important to the inclusion groups are brought to the attention of the executive leadership. So they're then aware of what's important to their employees and it gives them a forum to do that. But without the inclusion groups, the executives might hear about it but it wouldn't, necessarily, be in a positive way and it doesn't give them as much exposure to it. Adam:            Mh-hmm, and it also gives people a voice who may not have had a voice before. Sarah:            Yes, and that also because it's open to anyone. It's nice that some of the people who are at lower levels, in the organization, can still become very active in these inclusion groups. And have access to people at different levels that they might not have access to if they didn't join that inclusion group. Adam:            Mh-hmm, that's awesome. So we're thinking about engagement, I want to talk a little bit about what are some drivers that bring employees to become engaged or to engagement, within an organization. And maybe you can talk about some drivers that have helped your organization, as you've seen it, especially, over the last two years? Sarah:            Yes, the main one that I see is employee development because it demonstrates that you care about your employees and their own career. And, so, that you're not just worried about the company or yourself. You care about that person and how they can grow themselves. So we've focused a lot on personal development. Fortunately, we have some really good training tools, online training tools. So we have a lot of programs that our employees have access to, and what we've tried to do is go through and identify some that would be useful to people. So they don't have to go combing through a thousand training programs. So leadership training and teaching them how to manage people and how to improve their interpersonal communications. And then technical training to help them develop their technical skills, so that they can perform their job better or be able to potentially move into a different role.  We have a really good opportunity for our employees to receive coaching, which a lot of our managers have taken advantage of. Which is really great because it gives them a chance to work with a trained coach, to improve the skills that need improvement.  So that they can work to become future leaders of the company. And, then, I mentioned before the stretch assignments. But all of those things have been really helpful, showing our commitment to the development of our employees. And, then, the other area, I'd say, especially, during the last couple of years people have really looked for is just empathy and understanding. We're very aware that everyone has things that they need to do outside of work. We're very respectful of people's time with their families.  We're flexible in work arrangements and we try to be aware of what's happening in people's lives. So that we can make sure that we're not putting too much work on them. If they have something they're dealing with outside of work that they need to focus on. And I will say we've gotten really positive feedback, when we do take the time to show that we care about our employees, as individuals, it makes them feel very positive towards the company. So things like that really pay off.  And, then, the third area would be recognition. So I think that recognizing the positive contributions of your employees, has a huge benefit. And some studies show even more than compensation, I don't know if that's true or not. But it really does help to ensure that people know how much you appreciate them.  And, so one thing we've started to do is we have a quarterly meeting for our entire department. And every quarter I ask people to nominate people that they work with, that they think have done something that was, particularly, special or helpful. And, so, then we acknowledge that in front of the whole group, and that really goes a long way towards making people feel really appreciated and that the work that they do doesn't go unnoticed. Adam:            That's amazing to hear, and in the conversations that I've been having, even just in this podcast. It seems like the common theme is that we've all understood our human condition outside of the corporate structure. And recognize that it's okay to have a kid run into the room when you're in the middle of a meeting, or a dog barking, because that's just life. And you can still have your meeting and still be professional in the midst of all those things, and it kind of brought us all together at the same level. Sarah:            Yes, I agree. And it is true, you do observe those things happen to executive vice presidents, down to staff-level people. Especially when we were all home, we're all dealing with the same type of things going on, and it does help everyone feel like we can relate to one another. Adam:            Yes. And, so, as we look forward into the future, a lot of people have moved to a hybrid situation, or all in the office, or partially in the office, every organization is different. How do you think we can continue engaging employees in the midst of rising costs? In the midst of shareholders saying, "Hey, okay, you had your little break from the COVID now you need to get back going there." And a lot of organizations are finding it difficult to find that balance. Because workloads are starting to increase, as people are increasing what they want out of their employees. How do you balance that? Sarah:            That's a great question and it is really difficult. I'll tell you my experience because we have our own struggle with bringing people back to the office. And we're recommitting to a hybrid work schedule because we had attempted one, and people still really wanted to work, primarily, from home. And it's hard because people do want the flexibility of working from home. And we know that they're very productive at home.  I think that we've tried to emphasize, to our employees, that "We know you're productive from home. We're not worried about productivity. But we want people to have that human connection. Because it is an important part of engagement to talk to people in-person, and just have a conversation that's not related, primarily, to work.  And, so, we're going to renew our enthusiasm for encouraging people to come to the office two days a week, and we are emphasizing that we're going to be very flexible with the time that people arrive and the time they have to leave.  We understand they have commitments outside of work. And, then, it still gives them a few days a week to work from home, and have those really productive stretches of uninterrupted work. Where they're not having to drive to the office or someone is not stopping in to say hello. And, hopefully, this gives everybody the best of both worlds.  Where they can have those two days with the in-person interaction, maybe some visibility to higher level executives that they can't get from home. But then still have that uninterrupted time at home, the productive time, and that flexibility to not have to commute.  And then the other thing that we're trying to do, we did this year, was we did have a, and, although, it's expensive, but we got our whole team together in one location, for a couple of days to just do some training, and some brainstorming, and some planning for the future. And it was such a great experience and everyone really loved being together in-person, and being able to brainstorm together. And then everyone left feeling renewed about the future and excited. And, so, I think, that goes a long way towards keeping everybody engaged, is having that opportunity to all come together. Adam:            Yes, there's something about the human connection and seeing somebody, as opposed to as you and I are, we're looking at each other through little webcams. But sitting across the table from somebody, there's a huge difference in that connection point. And I think we do need that, as humans, we need that human touch. And, especially, getting out of the house every once in a while is good for everybody. Sarah:            Yes, I think so, I enjoy the two days a week in the office, and then I enjoy the rest of the week working from home. So I'm hopeful that the hybrid approach works. Adam:            I am too. I think this is the new normal, is hybrid, because everybody recognized, "Hey, we can be successful working from home and be just as productive, if not more productive." And then finding that balance will be the way forward. Because if you can't adjust your organization to be a hybrid, then, you might find more resignation. Because people are like, "I'll go to someplace where they will let me do that." Sarah:            Yes, and that's a fear that a lot of companies have and, especially, in accounting because there are a lot of jobs. If people want to work fully remote, then, they will. So we're trying to emphasize what are the benefits you get from being around people. We understand there's benefits to being home, and that's very appealing. So we're trying to show the appeal of the two days in-person, and the opportunity to interact with people and benefit from those in-person connections and interactions. Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast. Providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting finance profession. If you like what you heard, and you'd like to be counted in, for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.

You'll never look at a tree in the same way again after this episode. Our guest, Tristan Gooley, is known as the natural navigator and gives us fascinating insight into the stories nature is telling us and how they can help us find our way. At Eartham Wood, West Sussex, he teaches us how each part of a tree can tell us about the land, water and animals around us. I put his skills to the test as we read the captivating clues of brown leaves, leaning trunks, lichens, yew, blackthorn and more. Find out how to determine which way is south, why thorny branches could indicate small animals and if he ever gets lost! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Well, today I'm off to meet a writer, navigator and explorer who has led expeditions in five continents and I'm told is the only living person to have both flown solo and sailed single-handedly across the Atlantic. He's known as the natural navigator because he has learned how to find your way through the natural world really by looking at the clues that nature provides us and although he has travelled the world doing some extraordinary adventures, I'm meeting him much closer to home in a forest near Chichester. And that's important because he says, actually, the globetrotting is, in a sense a diversion. And, and the lessons about the natural world and practical things we can take from that can be found actually so much closer to home. His book, How to read a tree, has just come out, which tells you a lot about how to read the natural world around you, and I'll definitely be talking to him about that. Anyway, I'm off to meet him, which is a bit of a joke because I am the world's worst navigator and my first problem, as ever, is of course he is not where I think he is, but I've called him and he's going to come out of the forest and wave, so I'm off to look for a man who's waving. Tristan: My name is Tristan Gooley, also known as the natural navigator, because of my lifelong passion in the the wonderful art of natural navigation, finding our way using nature and I'm gonna lead you into my local woods, Eartham Woods to have a look at some of the clues and signs we can find in trees. Adam: And how did you get into all of this? Tristan: Well, I I loved, I was pretty restless as as a youngster and I loved putting little journeys together. And then the the little journeys became bigger journeys and and through that I I developed, it started as a practical thing. I needed to know how to find my way. And then what happened was as the journeys became bigger and bigger, I had to become a proficient navigator. And there came a point quite a few years ago now, where I realised the scale of the journeys wasn't wasn't making them more interesting. So I turned everything on its head and learned to to find my way using nature and it, and it started with very, very small journeys. Just, you know, using the the sun, the the flowers, the trees and the weather generally as as my guide and just trying to cross a a mile or two of English countryside. Adam: I mean, I know, you're concentrating on the UK at the moment. But you have done some amazing foreign trips as well? Tristan: Yes, and that was that was the the my school, if you like. And it was very much a a self-imposed thing. I loved learning about how to shape these journeys. But as I say it it got to the point where I was staring at kit the whole time I was I was literally staring at screens which had robbed all of the fun. I'd, it I I wasn't a I wasn't the sort of fidgety, 10 year old feeling the wind on my face and crossing, crossing little lakes or or scrambling up hills. I was, I was effectively managing systems and so that's when I when I decided to turn it on its head and and go for much smaller journeys. But try and understand how how nature is making a map and quite often a compass for us. Adam: That itself surely has its own contradictions, because it seems to me what you're talking about is relearning some lost arts. The very nature of the fact that they are lost arts makes them hard to relearn. So how did you do that? Tristan: Yes, it's it's a really interesting area because the, the, we we lost our connection with land based natural navigation in in a time when there was no writing. So there are very, very few written records. But the good news is navigation is something, and I feel really passionate about this, it is, it is one of the few fundamental skills. If I'm if I'm talking to a group or leading a group, I sometimes say to them, I don't know you, but I'm pretty confident in the last 24 hours you've eaten something, you've drunk something, you've slept, and you've navigated. Those are some of the things that all human beings do by and large. And so what we find is with fundamental things they pop up in in stories. So another another thing is if if you or anyone listening thinks of their favourite story in the world, it can be a blockbuster movie that came out a week ago or it can be an ancient myth, it really doesn't matter, you'll find navigation features in it, so the clues the clues are there. So I combined that with looking at all sorts of accounts of journeys, combined that with my own observations and combined it with research into some quite recent botanical research, for example, and and piecing all those bits together that allow me to to rediscover the art. Adam: Do you bemoan the fact that we're now so dependent on satnavs? We don't use any of those skills and perhaps don't even see the need for them. Tristan: No, I see it as a potential win win, but I think it's about an awareness of how the I have this weird thought experiment, I imagine that we each day we wake up with 1,000 units of attention and then it's it's up to us how we spend them. Now work might take 600 or 700 of them and sometimes we have no choice about that. But the question then is what do we do with the ones leftover. There's, there's lots of options there and understanding the clues and signs in nature is not something I expect to, you know, fill fill the available units for everyone. But it is something where we can, we can say, well, actually I'm just going to, I'm just going to give 10 minutes of this day to trying to understand, you know what that insect is telling me, what is that butterfly telling me about what the weather has just done, for example. And then through that it becomes quite a moreish subject because our brain has evolved to do it. Adam: Yes, I mean, I agree. I mean, I think you know, wandering through the forest as we are now, it's it's not a lesson, it's not like I'll get extra points for knowing this tree is X tree, but it helps you engage with it, it's quite interesting to go, oh, there's a there's another narrative being told to me that I'm I'm not listening to, I'm not tuned to, but I could tune into that story actually makes the walk a richer walk, doesn't it? Tristan: Yeah. I I really agree with that and I I'm I'm a bit of a poacher turned gamekeeper in the sense that I wasn't one of those kids crawling around with a magnifying glass looking for beetles, I I discovered it through what started as a fairly pragmatic practical need through through the natural navigation journeys. But what what I have discovered since for myself and others is that there's a there's a very widespread feeling that we ought to connect with nature, that we should feel something, that if we just go and stand in a in a wood that it should somehow magically make us feel something. But actually, our brains have evolved to to be doing things and to be understanding things. And if we think about the animal kingdom, which which we're obviously part of, we're we're not the fastest by a long way. We're not the strongest by a long way. We we don't have the best senses. But the one thing we do really, really well, our one trump card is an ability to to take in a landscape and and understand the patterns and build a more interesting and meaningful picture from what we see than any other creature can. So whether you're talking about a dolphin, a chimpanzee, any any creature you want to name it can probably beat us in some areas, but it can't do what we can do, which is look at look at a, a, a picture or a tree or or or any organism and and derive a more interesting picture and more meaning from it. Adam: So look, I I feel like I'm aimlessly wandering through the wood here. Are we heading off somewhere specific or we just, we're just rambling? Tristan: We're we're going for a bit of a a a bit of a wander there's no no sort of fixed destination but that again is quite I I think it's quite nice I I often like to go for walk and just the sole aim instead of, you know, many, many years ago, the aim would have been perhaps to cross, you know, 30, 30 kilometres of woodland. But now the aim is to perhaps notice a a clue or a sign that that that is is new to me or that I can share. I mean the the view I often take is every single thing we see outdoors is a clue or a sign. And when we take that that perspective instead of sort of thinking, well, maybe there's something interesting out there and if I'm lucky, I'll spot it, if we if we just pause, let's let's pause by this yew tree for example... Adam: OK. Tristan: So every every single organism, including every single tree, is is full of meaning, which is another way of saying nothing is random. And if we just come round the side of this one, I'll be able to show you, hopefully this one will be a good one to, so a nice a nice introduction to the idea that that nothing is random is that if you ask anybody to draw a tree, you'll get a symmetrical tree. Symmetrical trees, of course, don't exist when we think about it, we know that. Every single tree appears as a unique individual, and that means that there's a reason for all the the asymmetries and the differences we find, I mean, as we look at this one here, we can see it's not symmetrical. There's more tree on the left side as we look at it, pretty, pretty sort of pretty clear asymmetry. So noticing that it's not symmetrical on its own is not is not fascinating, but knowing that we get most of our light from the southern side, and that that every tree is harvesting light, we put those two pieces together and and that tree is clearly showing us that south is out this way. Adam: Is that true? Tristan: *laughs* It is, it is. Yeah, I'm I'm pretty confident on that one. Adam: OK, I tell you what. It's not, we've only just met, it's not that I don't believe you, but I'm just going to, let me just go get my, my, yes and I I can confirm, I can confirm the tree is correct. That is the south. OK, very good. *Both laugh* Tristan: And and actually there there are lots and lots of other clues within that individual tree. The the angle of the branches, they're closer to vertical on the the right northern side and close to horizontal on the left southern side. And this is something I call the tick effect from this perspective, it's a reverse tick. But again, it's just a reflection of of the fact that it is it is, it is reflecting back to us, its little patch of the world. So if you get more light out to that side on the southern side, the branches are going to grow out towards the southern sky. On the north side, fewer branches and they're growing up towards the only light they can get up in the sky there. Adam: Very good. So and that's, I mean it tells its story, but it's also if you were lost and needed to go south you have a ready made compass. Tristan: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think that I was talking about how we're sometimes we feel we ought to feel something and actually natural navigation is is a sort of fun, simple way of turning on its head and saying instead of nature magically sort of plugging me into a different sensation, let me come at this a different way and say I'm going to ask this tree to to make a compass for me or I'm going to ask this tree to make a map for me. Or I'm going to try and discover the story of this tree. What has it been through? And if we we wander on our our, you know, I mean I mean you at any point you want, you can pick any tree you like and sort of say let's let's find the story in that and I will I will, have fun. Adam: No, it's it's alright, I'm not testing you, I I believe you. No, I mean that's that's amazing. I mean I was, I know your book is only just coming out April this year, so just hitting the bookshelves. But I've sort of had a sneak peek at some some of the elements in it and I think one of the things I saw quite quickly was about knowing when water is close by. Well today that's not a problem because water is everywhere but it, you know, it might be a problem and then and indeed, with climate change, that might be a very significant thing. What tell tell me about that, how do you, what are the clues from looking at a tree to know that water is close or where water is? Tristan: Yes, every every tree is is reflecting back to us through through its niche. So every single organism has a niche. Nature's ultra competitive, there is, there are no organisms that can kind of survive by waking up in the morning saying, well, I'll just kind of do a bit of everything. So what we find is it doesn't matter whether we're talking about animals or plants, they all have a a niche they they all have a habitat that they are better suited to so that they can outcompete other, in this case, trees. So for example, you'll notice if you if you walk by a river, for example, you'll start to notice willows, perhaps alder trees, and then if you walk up a hill nearby, all the trees will change. Here, although it feels very wet at the moment, we're actually in dry country, we're on chalk here and the the water tends to disappear quite quickly, which is why we see many more beech trees. Beech trees thrive on relatively dry soil on on chalk in particular. Adam: But also I think you were you were talking about the the leaf structure and that when you look at a leaf which is near water, it has this sort of white vein in it? But I think that's really a neat trick if I was out with my family to go, I'm looking at this leaf, there is a river nearby and that's gonna get me huge nature points. So explain that. Tristan: Yes. Yeah, and that's that's taking a a visual cue in the case of the willow trees. One of the one of the sort of telltales for willows, I mean willows, a hugely diverse family with with you know, tens of thousands of species, conceivably and and I don't think we'll ever exactly know how many species, which is why going down to species level isn't isn't super helpful, but a lot of the willows that thrive right next to water have long, relatively thin leaves. and they have a a pale rib down the middle. And what I've learned over the years is there's so many clues and signs and there's so much so many sort of things that nature is trying to whisper to us that having the odd visual cue can really help us remember it. So if if I, you know, just wrote that willows are next to water, that's quite an easy thing to sort of forget. But when you think there's what looks like a stream down the middle of the leaf is telling you that you might be near a stream, the brain quite likes that pairing, it makes it more memorable, and that's that's how a lot of lore, as in folk lore survives is because it's memorable, either in an oral or a visual sense. It's entirely up to us whether we want to do the the stepping stone of thinking well that white vein and the shape of that leaf is telling me it's a willow tree and the willow tree is telling me I'm probably near water, or if we just want to skip that like I'm convinced our ancestors, quite often they weren't doing the the identification they were, they were just they just knew, for example, from the sense of a tree shape or or its leaves, that was telling them that there was water nearby because we we still find that in indigenous communities. Adam: Well, you you just you said I should test you at some point. So look this is a really interesting shape tree, tell tell me a bit about describe it for us first of all and then, does it, does it tell us a story? Tristan: Yes. So one of the first, the first things I'm noticing on here are the these thorns here and we're looking looking at a blackthorn and it's it's giving me two messages, quite, quite sort of quickly. The first, the first one is thorns make me look for animals. It's it's a tiny bit counterintuitive, but because because thorns are not the sort of things you want to fly through very quickly, you don't, you don't find the the the fast birds of prey zooming in and out of this, which means that small animals actually are quite comfortable in here. So this is the sort of place where if for any reason you wanted to get closer to to small small animals quite often little birds, in there, they've, they've they've learned over the years that that's a pretty friendly place to sort of go. You're not going to find a a raptor zooming in out of nowhere and making life uncomfortable because it's just too dangerous to come in here sort of 50 miles an hour. The other thing is that it's its size is is telling me it's quite likely that we're not in the heart of a mature woodland. So what what we find is that there are, generally speaking, there are large trees and small trees, and the reason is because being a medium tree is not a great strategy. The reason for that is that if you grow up to be a medium tree, you've needed all the water and all the minerals and all the energy to get halfway towards loads of light. But you don't get loads of light cause the tall trees steal it all. So the reason we mainly have is, we look around here we can see there are mainly small trees and then there are tall trees. We've got, we've got spruces and we've got, we've got back back in that direction we've got beeches and an oak there. And then we've got the thorns here, a mixture of blackthorn and and hawthorn and and this is this is the smaller trees are much more common at the edges of woodland or in clearings. You know, if we were trying to find our way out of these woods, you'd generally go from tall trees to small trees on the way out. Adam: We'd be near home. We'd go, this is the right way, this is going. And that's, I mean, that's a fascinating story, this, is it, I'm just trying to make this understand the logic of it, is that can you not be put off track by the fact that it's not a mature small tree, it's just a small tree, cause it hasn't got big yet. I mean, so all large trees were small once, so doesn't that rather make it rather confusing? Tristan: Yes, yes. No, it's it's a, it's a valid point and I do I do put that in in the book that, you know, the the there is a look to to a mature tree. So you can generally tell when a tree is young and the the bark is quite a good clue. I mean, if we if we look at this bark on the on the thorn here, it's that's quite gnarly and you can just tell that that's that's not been you know that's not a 10 year old is it, that's that's something that's that's seen a few seasons. We're we're always building a jigsaw here. If if a place looks like it's it's established and there hasn't been much disturbance, recently, we're going to find mature species. If if you're surrounded by a load of young trees, that's telling you a totally different story, it's telling you that something major has happened. Now, there may have been a there could have been a landslide, there could have been a fire, there could have been human clearance or something like that. It's pretty rare we're going to look at a single branch of a single tree and say that tells me the whole story. But but here we can see the combination of human activity, the size of the tree that this is this is a fairly classic, the trees trying to reclaim the land, so what, what happens is that these pioneer species get in here, I'd expect us to be able to see some birches. Yeah, there are a couple just there. Can you see just the the silvery bark on there. So birches are another pioneer species. So the story here is humans have done their best to clear a track that we're walking along and the trees through the pioneer species are saying we're going to have that back. You know, if you drop your guard, this this land will be ours again. And that's that's part of the map. Adam: And one of the things I always love about trees is the, well, we've got lots of little bits of mosses and lichens growing on them. Is there anything that that tells us a story? I mean on on that on that branch, there's a lot more moss on one side of the branch than the other. Is that just because just is that random or is there a story there? Tristan: When when people are new to natural navigation, they often often sort of they're they're familiar with the idea that moss grows on the north side of trees. But moss is really hard to use. It's it's not one of my top 20 techniques for the simple reason that it's it's not fussy enough. Moss will grow anywhere there's moisture, so all moss is telling you is that there's a surface that stays moist. The reason we're seeing moss on the on the side of that tree is nothing to do with aspect. It's nothing to do with north or south. It's because that tree has has come off the vertical, but it's what whatever we notice is a key and a and a way into into noticing other things. So if you hadn't noticed that moss, we might not be standing here noticing that that tree has come off vertical, so why does has it come off vertical? Well, this this tree to one side of it is bigger, therefore most likely older, which means this one has had to grow in the shade of it, which was why its trunks leaning away. So the trunks leaning away to get more light that leads to a gradient in the trunk. That means one side is is is not vertical, so the water is slowing down there and the moss is thriving. I I find lichens on trees much more much more instructive and the more the more filamentous, more hair like they are the the stronger the sign that you're in an area with fresh air. Adam: Yes, they're they're generally a sign of of good air quality, is that right? Tristan: Yes. Yeah, yeah. The more lichen species you see, it's it's a fairly strong sort of correlation. Adam: So, but these aren't so so fine are they? Tristan: No, no, we've got they're not they're not the Usnea family, which, which is the the ones who are most fussy about fresh air. But we have got a good mix here. I mean I would say it's a very specialist area, but if we had a lichenologist here with their magnifying glass and their way of testing pHs and all sorts of other wonderful things, I wouldn't be surprised if they found dozens just there. Whereas if we were much closer to a town centre that that number would come right down. I say here we've got a a hawthorn and as as we've sort of seen, one of the the smaller trees, but what's rather wonderful is this is very clearly bursting into leaf right now. And one of the most fun things to look for in in spring is small means early. And it doesn't actually matter whether it's a slightly taller tree with low branches or a small tree as we've got here. The lower down we look the earlier spring comes. And it's a simple race, because once the canopy leaves are out and it's sealed out the light there is there is no light here. So, so so bluebells will will be out here in a few weeks, and they're just trying to beat the the canopy. So. So what we find is that spring at head level comes you know, typically a couple of weeks before spring higher up in the trees. We've got a slightly different thing which is quite fun here as well. Which is we're just seeing a few few brown leaves low down on on this oak here and I don't know if you've come across that before, but that's it's a it's an odd word to write and say, it's marcescence is is the word, but it all it all it means is that quite a few broadleaf trees, but notably beeches, oaks, hornbeams do it, and and a few others will hold on to a few of their lower leaves all through winter, and then they start to typically lose quite a few of them just before spring. And the fascinating thing is, there's no agreement amongst the scientific community about why it happens, which I find, you know, such it is such when you when you know to look for it. And it's one of the reasons, for example, beech hedges are very popular because they hold on to that brown leaf covering all through winter. But it only happens in the in the low parts of the trees, which when you find things that only happen in the lowest parts of trees, it sometimes has a relationship with with animals and and the idea there is that you know the the grazing animals that could otherwise nibble off the buds, which which the tree obviously doesn't want find the the brown leaves from the last season less palatable and another theory is that if they're, if they're shedding them about now, it's a way of adding those nutrients as a as a fertiliser for the roots when the growing season's about to start. So instead of dropping all the leaves in autumn when when the minerals aren't going to be needed for quite a while, the trees wait until this time of year and and then drop some more leaves like like sort of putting feed on the ground because it's it's very near the the the edge of the canopy, the area that's known as the the drip line, where where water and minerals are taken up. But yeah, I I like the fact that the, you know, there are still, there are still mysteries, the scientists need to, yeah. Adam: So, I mean, you're known as the natural navigator, have you, have you ever been lost terribly, I mean on your travels? I mean it's there's a limit to the amount of danger we're going to get in today even if we did get lost, but in some of the more wilder places you've been? Tristan: I certainly overrated my abilities and and underplanned and underprepared when I was when I was a young man, I when I was nineteen, I led a friend up a an active volcano in Indonesia and got us horribly lost and we we had to walk for three days without food, which was, yeah, I mean, I really thought it was the end. I thought that was a a mistake too far I didn't I didn't think we'd get out of that, but in the end it was a it was just trying to hold a hold a straight line, and then we saw these trails that we thought were animal trails and then we noticed there were parallel and it was the very end of a four by four track and it was it was it was a pretty harrowing experience. Adam: My goodness. It's, you talk about this, it reminds me I was doing some filming many years ago with the Surui tribe in the Amazon and we got lost and were abandoned a bit and at the, initially we did think oh this is quite funny because it's a good story and then it, you go, we're very close to this being exceptionally serious. And there's this odd, sort of emotions are partly going, well this is all a big adventure and quite interesting, and yet I was also thinking one more thing goes wrong and we are never getting out of here. And that's a sort of curious sort of tension, isn't there when those things happen. And you get lost. Tristan: It is interesting with the, when I when I've met indigenous people and walked with them in in remote areas, there's a a western view of being lost, which is quite a binary view. The idea is that we either know exactly where we are or we're 100% lost. The the indigenous view of navigating in in wild regions is is a little bit more, what we might almost call sort of fuzzy logic in the sense that they don't necessarily always know exactly where they are, but they know where they are relative to landscape features, landmarks and and things like rivers and ridgelines, so, and this is one of the things that I, one of the ways I sort of teach people to not feel, natural navigation is not about, you know, knowing how to get from A to B absolutely perfectly and efficiently. It's about exploring, taking in signs and if needs be keeping things unbelievably simple. So we we I could sort of show you show you an example now we could do which which might work quite well with the, if we pick up the sounds. If we come off the track just here just head into a little bit of, in amongst the trees here. Now, if we just stop and have a listen. Are you picking up that we're getting slightly more birdsong behind us and the sound of some wind out this way? It's quite faint. A buzzard in the distance, I think there, but we could just take a very sort of simple idea, which is that if I if I held out a an Ordnance Survey map and said to you point to exactly where we are, you might find that exercise quite tricky. But, but if I said to you, can you find the track we've just been on, you'd look back and you'd find it. But if having tuned into where the bird song is coming from, we took a few more steps over there, you can you can, I'm sure imagine a situation where you could neither point to exactly where you are on a map, nor see the track, and yet you've picked up just enough awareness to get back to the track. And having found the track, you could then work out how to get home. So if you'd noticed that we'd walked very slightly uphill, then we could bring start to bring all the pieces together. If we headed into the more mature trees over there, away from the shorter trees, you could you could have a map in front of you and think I'm completely lost, I have no idea where I am. But then if you just bring those pieces back from your memory, you say to yourself, well, I think if I head towards the birdsong, there tends to be more birdsong nearer, nearer the opening of of the track. And I'm going to put the sound of the wind, which is catching the taller canopy trees behind me. And then ooh, I'm just starting to lose confidence, ahh but the the taller trees have got smaller now, and I know that means I'm getting near the edge. I'm getting near the clearing. Then you found the the linear feature, the track, and you just remember you just go downhill from there and then you start to recognise where you are again. So it's this, as I say the the sort of developed world way of thinking navigation is you know exactly where you are and you know exactly the right track or path to take to where you want to get to. The the more indigenous natural navigation way of thinking of it is absolutely everything is a clue, and if I've tuned into enough of them, you'd have to tune into everything, but if I've tuned into the fact that I'll head towards the birdsong, I'll keep the wind on the top of the canopy behind me, I'll notice how the the tall trees become smaller trees just before I hit the linear feature and I I remember from there how to get back. You can see how you're you're not you're no longer feeling 100% loss, but at the same time you couldn't say exactly where you are. Adam: Yes. Yeah. No. How interesting. That's amazing. And I mean, we've gone through a very interesting year or two. I mean, there's been chaos and tragedy around covid. There's been cost of living crises, there's been all sorts of political upheaval. It feels more tumultuous than normal. Has that you think changed peoples reaction to the natural world, desire to get something from it and desire to engage with it. Or am I reading too much into that? Tristan: I definitely saw in in the lockdowns I saw what started as a necessary, you know, we were literally forced to find the same short walks interesting because we had no other legal choice. And so what started as a a a negative requirement, I think I I'm I'm a bit biased, but I think it was sincere. I I detected people actually starting to have quite a lot of fun saying well I, this 10 minute walk that I've done perhaps 100 times before I'm suddenly realising that there are perhaps 1000 things I've never noticed and that that I think is philosophically, I sometimes think of it like a a pension in the sense that the early, earlier any of us start to realise that there is this richness of meaning in everything around us, that the more we develop it and it, and it really is moreish, the brain loves doing it, it's, it's what we've evolved to do and so the earlier we we start doing it, it it sort of nurtures itself and then you find it's actually quite hard to go on really long walks because there's too many fun things to notice *both laugh* I'm I'm an optimist at heart. I'm of the view that if there's, if there are positive ways to get people to care about things we should, we should we should throw everything at those because it comes back to the the sort of psychologists, as far as I'm aware have have done quite a lot of research in this area, and it doesn't matter what area you look at if you if you try and change behaviour purely by alarmism, it doesn't actually have the same effect as if you give the brain a genuine reward for for for changing. But a good example is we we only we can only care about things we see and notice. And even the word sort of trees can seem very abstract. Whereas if we get to know individual trees and woodland better, then we start to start to take a real interest in in what people are doing to them and around them. And that's why I do sort of feel positive is that, our ancestors and indigenous people, you, you can barely you know, you can barely bend a leaf without them sort of noticing because they've, they've, you know, invested in this practical awareness of what things are telling us. Adam: I think Obama called one of his books the audacity of hope, I I agree, I think, hope is often underplayed. The power of hope. And it is audacious. It is bold to go, there is hope, but I think it's also powerful. It is powerful. Tristan: Yes. Yeah. Adam: Well, I met Tristan at Eartham Woods in West Sussex which is a fantastic place which I'd highly recommend, but if you want to find any wood near you do go to the Woodland Trust website which is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Did you know we have rainforest right here in the UK? Visit magical Bovey Valley Woods in Devon with us as we walk alongside a babbling brook and over a Tolkien-esque stone bridge among trees dripping with lichens and mosses and learn all about it. Site manager David Rickwood describes the features of UK rainforest, some of the fantastic species that live here and why this habitat is so important as he takes us on a lichen hunt, shows us an otter holt and much more. Find out what a rapid rainforest assessment involves with Tom, and meet Eleanor who is working hard to create a powerful alliance to protect rainforest in the South West. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees, for people, for wildlife.  Adam: When most people think about rainforests, they're imagining the tropical, densely overgrown jungles of, well, mainly of our imagination, because so few of us have actually been there. But what they don't think about is the rainforests of places as close to home as a Devonshire cream tea. And that's what's so shocking because Devon and some other parts of the UK have in fact some of the most important temperate rainforests the world knows. And it's shocking not only because it's a bit of a surprise that we have these rainforests, but we've not really been taking much care of them. The ecologist Dominic DellaSala said that today's European rainforests are mere fragments, a reminder of a bygone era when rainforests flourished and they're now barely hanging on as contemporary rainforest relics. Well, I'm off to see, well, I hate to describe it as one of those relics, but one of those jewels that remains with us in Devon to see what a British rainforest looks like, why it's important, and what's fun about it.   Well, I've come to Bovey Valley Woods, which, unsurprisingly, I suppose, lies in the valley of the River Bovey on the South East side of Dartmoor National Park, and rather close to Newton Abbot. You might have heard of that. There are lots of trees and there are lots of wildlife here, brimming with spring migrant birds, so we might come across the Dartford warbler, the brightly coloured kingfisher or the pied flycatcher, which arrives from Africa each spring to breed. We might come across some rather tiny hazel dormice, which I understand are here as well. I'm not here at night, but apparently if you are, there are lots of bats which hunt on the wing. And of course there's the Dartmoor ponies, which graze in the wildflower meadows around here, but we are planning on heading into the wood itself.  David: My name is David Rickwood and I work for the Woodland Trust and I'm a site manager here at Bovey Valley Woods.   Adam: Well, just describe to me sort of what we're looking out at now. We can, I can hear a stream somewhere nearby. So there's clearly that down in the valley, but describe what, what's going on around us.  David: Yeah. So we're on the eastern edge of Dartmoor. There are 9 river systems that rise on, on Dartmoor. They carve these kind of deep valley systems off the edge of the moor. So a lot of people, when they imagine Dartmoor, they're thinking about the big open expanses of the moorland, but actually all of these river valley systems are where the concentrations of ancient woodland and temperate rainforests sit. You know, they have this kind of ambient temperature all year round, so we don't have these extremes of heat and cold. And they provide those kind of perfect conditions really.  Adam: Yeah. I mean, when one thinks of Dartmoor, it is those, those bare sort of rather dramatic landscapes. But you were saying hidden in the creases around those are these, these rich temperate rainforest environments.  David: Absolutely. You see so although people think of the open moorland of Dartmoor and the high moor, actually, a lot of that biodiversity and a lot of the diversity is around the edges in these wooded valleys. So woodland bird assemblages is particularly important in this part of the world, so species like pied flycatcher, wood warbler, invertebrates like blue ground beetle, and, of course, all of these lichens, mosses and liverworts that are, you know, in these sort of niches in these temperate rainforests.  Adam: Right, so we've jumped into this discussion about rainforests. And we're in a temperate rainforest, but I'm still not sure what a temperate rainforest is, because it conjures up this image, sort of, of jungle, doesn't it, of hacking back dense forestry, of the Amazon, of sort of Victorian explorers, that's not the environment we're in, which leads, I think, me to a confusion, I think lots of people are confused about what it is we're talking about. How would you define a a rainforest?  David: OK, so in visual terms, a lot of the trees around here have what they call epiphytic plants. There's things growing on the trees, there's things growing on the rocks. There's things growing on other plants and you get this lush abundance of particularly mosses.  Adam: Yeah. So sorry, the epiphytic, it means it's living on it, but it's not actually taking its energy from that. It's quite a beneficial relationship?  David: Yeah. So if you were to go and look at a tree branch in, say, central London, you're not going to see it carpeted in mosses and lichen. So here the air quality is very high and so you get this abundance of of plants growing on other plants. And because it's so wet, moist and damp throughout the year, those plants can survive actually quite high in the canopy.  Adam: So the sorts of things that you're seeing in a rainforest are lichens. The trees aren't particularly different from trees you'd see elsewhere are they? The oaks and all of that. So it is, lichens are a big identifier and the amount of rain presumably?   David: Absolutely yeah. So we're we're talking about sort of 200 days a year where rainfall is occurring in some form that might actually be cloud, just wet mist, not necessarily pouring down with rain. And we're also talking about rainfall in excess of say 12 to 1400 millimetres a year.  Adam: And we're very lucky that we're in a rainforest and it's not raining. Well, it's lucky for me. So now this is a tell me about this piece of woodland itself.  David: And we're right on the edge of the moorland. And so the woodland here is gradually creeping out onto the edge of the moor, and it's spread out from these kind of core areas in the valley. Now, that's brilliant in terms of renaturalising the landscape. But actually it can be quite problematic for some of the species in temperate rainforests, so in particular on this site here we've got lots of very old veteran trees and ancient trees that grew in a landscape that was a bit more open, had a lot more light. And it's those trees that often have some of these really key species assemblages on base rich bark or what they call dry bark communities. So it's all quite niche in terms of the conversation. But those trees are really the stars in this valley and so whilst we're kind of managing the woodland here, we need to give, you know, conscious effort to kind of manage around some of those key areas.  Adam: So look, let's go off into the woodland, but just to tell tell me a bit about what we're gonna see the plan for the day.  David: OK. So the plan for the day is we're going to just walk down this track here and we're going to drop down to a place called Hisley Bridge and that crosses the River Bovey. And that in itself is a very enchanting and beautiful place, and I think probably some of this mystery around temperate rainforest will start to fall into place when you see that.  Adam: Well I tell you what, let's go, let's go off before we, before we go off on that adventure just, just pause for a moment to listen to that babbling brook. So we're talking about this rainforest in recovery or trying to build a rainforest here almost. How delicate is this environment?  David: It's interesting, I think probably in the past five or ten years, I think we've become increasingly aware, particularly through working with partners like Plantlife, actually how vulnerable these sites are and, and how the changing climate is going to be a real threat to sites like this. And whilst we're doing our best in terms of managing the site and trying to restore it and trying to create the right kind of conditions, there are some aspects about climate that we cannot manage. And so resilience is really this much sought after objective and I think on a site like this, it provides an interesting template because over the past 100 years this site has kind of spread out into the wider landscape. That expansion has created an element of resilience for us.  Adam: I'm not sure I fully understand, you're saying there is some resilience because of the expansion of it, but well, how does that create resilience?  David: So things like lichens, so so this, this site in particular is really important for lichens and Hisley Wood on the other side of the river is probably one of a handful of sites in England. As this woodland has expanded, it's allowed some of those species to actually move into the wider landscape. So instead of there maybe being 3 or 4 oak trees with a particular species here, there might be 100 oak trees with those species.  Adam: So the fact you've got more of them makes the whole thing more resilient, if something happens to one, it's not a disaster. Understood. So given, my feet are very wet, I I need new boots. Just just tell you if I'm grimacing, it's nothing to do with you. Oh, I was going to talk to you, but look at this. That is a bridge straight out of The Hobbit! Just, this is extraordinary! Tell me about that.  David: So this here is a historic bridge that would have provided the access to Boveycombe farmstead. So Boveycombe farmstead probably is mediaeval in origin, but the the structure that there's now is abandoned.  Adam: This is I mean just describe it, it's it's made of rocks and it looks so haphazardly done. It's straight out of, you do it in a film, isn't it? It's very high up, very slumped down. It is absolutely beautiful. I'm going to insist I take a photo of you on it. And and it's a lovely flowing river right underneath it as well.   David: Yeah so this is the River Bovey and about 200, 300 hundred metres upstream there's a confluence of the River Bovey and the Becka Brook. And these are sort of torrent rivers so they go up and down really quickly with the rainfall. So this area here and the bridge, in fact, at times becomes an island because the river comes up so high.  Adam: What where we are now, underwater?  David: Yeah so if you look at all of these stones, they're all water washed and you can see the sand from the riverbed that's been washed out here.  Adam: Oh, I can. Yeah, I can over there. It's amazing.  David: So coming here, you know, particularly in the autumn last year, November, December or the late autumn when we had a lot of rain yeah this was kind of underwater at this point. But these rivers are really important, or really important for things like salmon, spawning salmon, sea trout, yeah. So these, it's these kind of rivers that really would have had an abundance of salmon and sea trout in the past.  Adam: Do you still get some?  David: Yeah, we still get some now. And interestingly, even though it was super dry last July, the salmon numbers were the best they've been for probably 5 or 10 years.  Adam: I have many things to ask you, but we are gonna have to take a pause here as I take a photo. OK. Yeah. So the salmon, what other sort of wildlife have we got here?  David: So I don't if you can just look across the river there, but there's an oak tree and underneath the oak tree, the root plate has been hollowed out by the river.  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that. Yeah, it almost looks like there's, it's nothing supporting that tree.  David: Well, interestingly it does flex up and down, but that actually is an otter holt. So the otters move through this area on a regular basis and we've got a great little bit of footage actually of a mother with two kits in there and they're in there for a brief while. But these rivers are really good and things like otters are a really good sign that the fish population's good. So there'll be dippers on the river here, kingfishers, grey wagtails...  Adam: I, I got distracted by the beautiful bridge, but it's all, what I wanted to ask you about, this is such a sort of, environment on the edge that you're trying to protect, but at the same time it's Woodland Trust policy to encourage engagement, people to visit. In this particular area and this particular circumstance, is that a very difficult decision because actually you're going, hold on a second, you do want people to engage. On the other hand, this is an environment which really needs to be left alone for a while. Do you feel that tension at all?  David: Yeah, that's, that is an ongoing issue and so, for example here, one of the things we try to discourage, and we do that by just felling trees or putting in what you might describe as natural barriers, is we try and discourage some access to the river in certain areas. For example, like dogs, so dogs and the otter holt etc is not a great mix. And then you've got species like dipper that are nesting in these tiny little, really, balls of fern and grass along the edges here. And it's very, very easy for both a person, let alone a dog, to just flip those chicks out of that nest.  Adam: A black Labrador just dipping into the river there. I mean there, there's this sense of, you know, sort of called honey pot, sort of attractions and that was an issue I think, particularly in Dartmoor, over lockdown, wasn't it, where it's, sort of places became overwhelmed and I suppose again there's a tension, isn't there on the one hand, they can get overwhelmed. On the other hand, if you manage that well it drags people to the big, famous place and leaves the quieter places on their own. So it's a 2 sided coin. Do you think that's a, a good argument or not? You're smiling at me, almost going, no, no, it's, talking rubbish, no.  David: No, on the contrary, I think we have got to learn to manage it. And I think there's a number of aspects to that. I think we can try and draw people away from areas that we consider to be more sensitive. I think we need to engage people and try and broaden everybody's understanding of what's important about these places because the more people that appreciate them, love them and understand some of the nuance, and it is nuance, the more likely you are to be able to protect these places in the future and you know, for them to be sustained.  Adam: We've got a lot of travelling to do and not much time, so let's cross the bridge and you're taking me to some, some lichen. Oh, God, I'm just tripping over there, OK, right. We're we're we're going lichen hunting.   David: We are going to go lichen hunting. Although this isn't actually the best example, but there you go. Can you see these? There are these little teeth.   Adam: Little teeth underneath the lichen, and so that's why that's called dog lichen.   David: Yeah, and that's, it's part of a group of lichens that that behave in that way and they use those to actually attach itself to the moss or the rock.  Adam: That's not the nicest lichen I've seen, it looks very crumbly to me.   David: It looks a bit dry  Adam: It does look a bit dry, is that how it's meant to look?  David: Well you know, obviously we've had a very long dry spell.  Adam: Now I've just picked up a stick and this is covered in the lichen I love, but what is that? Do you know what, do you know what that's called? Now you see, I'm sorry I've embarrassed you.  David: No, no.   Adam: No don't worry about it, you don't have to know every bit of lichen.  David: No, it's palma... something or other, parmelia that's it.  Adam: It's parmelia, parmelia you see the noises are from his lichen advisors. Parmelia, I think it's so pretty. It's nicer than jewellery or something, you know, I think that's very nice. So OK. So we're heading down the other bank of the river and where are you taking me Dave?  David: Well, we're going to head down to a meadow that was cleared of conifer about 20 years ago, and so that's where part of this site has been restored. But on the way, we're going to have a look at a big ash tree and an oak tree that overhangs the river and that has a particular type of lichen called the lungwort growing on it.  Adam: Horrible name the lungwort. And was that, tell me if this is true, that, was it the Victorians who gave them these names, oh no actually it would have been before that, wouldn't it? Because it looked like an organ and they thought it, therefore, it was medicinal. Oh, well, it looks like a lung, therefore, if you've got a lung disease, you should eat that.  David: Yeah so that's exactly what, what it was. So this one looks like the inside of the lung, so it looks almost like the alveoli of the inside and people thought it was some kind of medicinal kind of treatment for any kind of ailment.  Adam: We should tell people don't eat this stuff.  David: No, don't eat it and certainly don't cut it or pick it, because it really is quite a rare species.  Adam: And that's this?  David: Yeah so there's, there's, there's several little pieces on this tree here.  Adam: I must be careful because I'm right by the river holding my phone, my recorder and if you hear a big splash, that'll be me going into the river, right? Yeah. Also I don't want to tread on all the lichens. Yeah, go on.  David: It's this one here. Which is looking a bit dry and crusty at the moment. So this is the, this is the lungwort. But if you look carefully this is an ash tree and this ash tree actually is dying.   Adam: I was going to say is this ash dieback?  David: Yeah so this is one of the trees that really will probably succumb to ash dieback in due course, but this one, thankfully, is leaning into this really big oak tree next door and the lungwort has managed actually to migrate across onto the oak. Can you see there's some small fragments here? And further up there's more fragments. So this is where potentially the loss of 1 species may be quite significant for the for the lichens that are growing on it.  Adam: And do you get involved? Do you give it a bit of a helping hand and sort of pick one up and put it over on the oak? Does, is that a thing that happens?  David: So we haven't done here, but that kind of translocation approach is being practised in some areas, particularly where the sites are almost pure ash. So this site here, we've got a range of species that lungwort can probably actually grow on. So we probably don't need to go down that route yet, but on some sites it's really critical. So they are translocating it.  Adam: I love that, I go ‘pick it up and put it down' and you very neatly go ‘that's called translocation', but you did it politely, so you didn't make me sound an idiot, and I tell you what I can't, I can't, I want a photo of the lungwort, but I'm, I can't come over that close. I'm going to fall in, so I'll give you my phone, and you can take a picture. That way I won't be climbing all over the place. Well, joining us with our band of merry men and women is actually someone who's responsible for a lot of work behind the scenes and actually bringing people together to make projects like this, this rejuvenation of this temperate rainforest possible.  Eleanor: So I'm Eleanor Lewis and I am the South West partnership lead for the Woodland Trust.  Adam: I know one of the big problems with these projects is that the Woodland Trust can't, perhaps doesn't even want to do them by themselves, so actually bringing in local communities, other organisations is super important.  Eleanor: Yeah, absolutely. I think the enormity of the kind of crises we face in terms of kind of climate change and biodiversity and nature just mean that no single organisation can do it on their own. And we can be so much more powerful and have far greater impact if we join together and create kind of partnerships and work at a landscape scale. So that's a fundamental part of my role really is identifying those kind of opportunities and working with other organisations to basically amplify all of our kind of organisational objectives. So at the moment we're seeking to kind of establish an alliance for the South West rainforest, so that's everyone from kind of Devon Wildlife Trust, Somerset Wildlife Trust, the National Trust and then you've got kind of Plantlife, RSPB, there's too many kind of to name, but a really kind of good mix of environmental kind of charities, but also those kind of policy makers. So we've been having conversations with Natural England and the Forestry Commission.  Adam: So what are you trying to get out of that association?  Eleanor: I think there's a number of different things, so there is already an existing alliance in Scotland, the Alliance for Scotland's Rainforest and I think one of the key things that has demonstrated is actually the power of having a kind of a coherent communications plan and therefore having a kind of 1 voice that is coming from all of these organisations  saying this is important, this is under threat and this is what we need to do is a really kind of key aim of the alliance.  Adam: Well Eleanor, thank you very much indeed. I do, I mean, I really do understand that sort of better together spirit really does help to achieve amazing things, so best of luck with that. I'm going to go off,  Dave is down there and I can see he's he's joined by a colleague I think there, so I'm going to go back and join them. But for the moment, thanks, thanks very much indeed.  Tom: So my name's Tom, Tom Pinches and we're contractors and consultants who work in the countryside.  Adam: And you're brought in to sort of identify trees that, it's called what this rapid, it sounds very flashy, so it's like you're the SAS of tree men, rapid reaction force. What is it called?  Tom: It's called the rapid rainforest assessment   Adam: Right and what is the rapid rainforest assessment?  Tom: The assessment formerly known as the rapid woodland assessment, it went through a little bit of a rebranding exercise.  Adam: Right, so what is it?  Tom: So the keyword there is rapid, so it's basically a toolkit which was developed by Plantlife to to easily identify temperate rainforests. I mean, my role as as a consultant really was to work with the volunteers.  Adam: Right. So showing them how to use this toolkit.  Tom: Yeah. So in theory it can be used by people with with less experience of ecological surveys. But there is some nuance there which requires a little bit of, a little bit of knowledge.  Adam: And so what sort of things are you testing? What, what are the the characteristics you're trying to find to identify this, this temperate rainforest?  Tom: So it it can be quite difficult to identify habitats and and that's something which ecologists have been struggling with for a while because there's no single identifying feature. So historically it was done by identifying indicator species. In certain habitats you tend to get communities of of species which which you find in that habitat. The problem with temperate rainforest is that those indicator species are plants like bryophytes, lichens, liverworts, mosses, which are very specialist, not not that many people can identify them, but the other things you can do are identify characteristics of the habitat. So these communities of species tend to be found in certain certain types of places. So one of the things we were looking at was was the structure of the woodland. We were looking at the age structure. We were looking at the amount of canopy cover, so those things are really important in temperate rainforest.  Adam: OK, so that's really critical, so this isn't Amazon rainforest transplanted to Devon tea land. This is, it does look different from a a jungle type Amazon.  Tom: So absolutely so the similarity is that they both require high rainfall, which is why you find them on the on the western edge of the UK where there's a lot of rainfall.  Adam: OK. And I don't wanna get obsessed by this, but why is it important that we identify this as rainforest, it looks just a very nice forest to me. The fact whether we call it temperate rainforest or just a bit of forest, doesn't seem to me to be that important. Why is it?  Tom: I mean, so temperate rainforest is is an incredibly rare habitat. So you could ask, why should we be conserving any incredibly rare habitats, I think, as a as a society, as an as a, as a, as a population, we all agree that that rare plants and rare habitats should be conserved, and so it's really important to identify them in order that we can conserve them. You know, we talk about diversity, we talk about diversity of species, biological diversity, diversity of habitats. And each of those sub habitats have their own biological diversity, biological uniqueness, and it's really important that we that we can identify as much nuance within those habitats and within that biological complexity as we can. So we can kind of save as much as we can, that's sort of under threat.  Adam: And it's beautiful as well as isnt it.  Tom: It is, yeah, it's really beautiful. They're some of the, I think some of the most beautiful habitats in the country, certainly in the country, maybe even the world. Very Tolkienesque, you know.  Adam: It is, as we crossed that bridge, I said if you're making a film of The Hobbit, that's what you put in The Hobbit.  Tom: Absolutely. And and and and you know these are habitats that inspired people like Tolkien to write about woodlands.  Adam: There is something mystical about them, isn't it? They do feel sort of magical places, little weird stuff could happen like stories.  Tom: They feel they feel timeless and ancient, and that's because they are ancient right and that's why they're so important because they're so old and they're so ancient. You know these really valuable habitats they're there because they've had so long such a long amount of time undisturbed to develop the diversity that they have.  Adam: Well, that is a fantastic point to end on Tom. And we are right in the middle of the woods right now and I have a train to catch, so I've got to make my way out to this place. So Tom, thank you very much, of course, my thanks to Eleanor and Dave and even the birds, the trees, the muds and the rivers which have given us our wonderful soundtrack for today. Thank you for listening. If you want to find a wood near you be it a temperate rainforest or something a little less exotic even, you can find a wood near you by going to woodlandtrust.org.uk forward stroke find a wood that's woodlandtrust.org.uk forward stroke find a wood. Until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.   

Londonthorpe Wood has been a haven for wildlife and people for 30 years. Colourful meadows and lush grassland open out amidst trees both old and new, where butterflies, grass snakes, wildflowers and woodpeckers all live. Now the Woodland Trust and National Trust are working together to make it even more appealing and accessible. Project manager Heather Cook tells us all about it, including what's been achieved so far, how local people have been involved, prioritising nature, history and visitors' wellbeing, and plans for the future. We also hear from Edd, a volunteer wildlife monitor, on what surveying involves, which species he's spotted and the excitement of seeing hundreds of butterflies in a single day. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well today I'm going off to Londonthorpe Wood. And the clue is in the name, it is a hop skip and a jump from London. In fact, well it's very close to Grantham. In fact, I think it's the closest woodland to the Woodland Trust headquarters in Grantham. Now the woodland is about 190 acres big. It's got wildflower meadows, broadleaf and mature woodland. It's got a whole bunch of wildlife and lush open grassland as well. So, it's a very mixed site indeed. And part of the purpose of this site is that the Woodland Trust has been working with the National Trust, supported by the National Lottery Heritage Fund to link Londonthorpe Wood and a place called Bellmount, which is the eastern part of the Belton House estate, which is rather grand and very nice. And it really gives a lot more accessible green space on the edge of Grantham to help people experience nature right on their doorstep. And what I'm really looking forward to – look – the place is filled with an abundance of butterflies. There's grassland areas, you might even see a grass snake. There's the great spotted woodpecker and even, you might see, a kestrel. Interestingly, also cattle are also put to work on the site as part of a program of conservation grazing. Of course, you don't see all of that at this time of year, but you never know what I might find. There's ash, there's oak, there's horse chestnut, there's beech, there's rowan, there's… oh I don't know!... sycamore, there's a whole bunch of stuff and I'm going to meet one of the Woodland Trust staff who's responsible for really bringing the site together. Heather: So, my name is Heather Cook and I am the project manager on this, reconnecting Grantham to its historic landscape project. Adam: Right, so, Heather I have to say, I left London, it was pouring down, I'm wearing my warmest clothes and get to Grantham and the weather is lovely. So, I apologise if I'm going to be very sweaty during this walk [Laughter], I've come overly dressed, overly dressed. Anyway, we are in Grantham very near the Woodland Trust headquarters, so this must be the nearest woodland to the Woodland Trust. Heather: It is. Adam: Why is this so important? Heather: So, well, because Londonthorpe Wood, as you say, is closest to our head office, but it's also situated right next to a beautiful historic landscape at Belton House. And erm so, the project that we're working on here is really about reconnecting the landscape. So… Adam: So, what does reconnecting the landscape actually mean? Heather: So, Londonthorpe Wood, Londonthorpe the site was originally part of the original Brownlow estate. I mean it was sold off years ago, Woodland Trust planted it up as a woodland, but it was very separate then from the Belton Estate. Adam: Right. Heather: So, we are now working in partnership with the National Trust on this project and opening up access for the people of Grantham. So, they've now got access to the entire landscape to the east of Belton House and Londonthorpe Wood. Adam: And when you talk about reconnecting the landscape then, is that reconnecting pockets of ecology so that nature has a bigger place to thrive? Or is it about sort of connecting a lovely house with a lovely bit of greenery so people can wander around? Heather: It's a bit of both. So, it's mostly to do with the physically reconnecting the two sites, so it's not actually connecting to the Belton House park, it's a section of Belton House that sits to the east of their estate where the Bellmount Tower is. It's freely accessible, there's no paved area. People can come in. So, it's a physical connection – we've opened up kissing gates and put in a bridge and all of that between the two sites. But then also very much around improving biodiversity, opening access from a wildlife point of view as well. Adam: And how long has that project been going on for then? Heather: So, the development phase was a few years, but the actual delivery of the project started just over two years ago. Adam: And what have you managed to achieve then? Heather: [Laughter] Adam: Sorry, that wasn't my inner Jeremy Paxman [laughter] ‘come on and justify what you've done!' No, no, so what has actually happened there? Heather: So, I think one of the biggest things you can see physically on the site is that we have majorly upgraded the car park. It was a small, very wobbly, difficult-to-get-around, little car park and we have upgraded that with a beautiful, big overflow space for when we have events. But I think the most exciting part for me is that we've been able to put the surface path in. So that has opened up the site to a much bigger group of people. It used to be that people would drive in, park their car, 20 minutes around the park with their dogs, back in the car and off they went. Whereas now we've got people in mobility scooters, baby buggies, wheelchairs coming to the site because it's surfaced and relatively level. It makes, that obviously makes it a lot easier. And also, in the winter this section that we're in now, it can get incredibly muddy and that puts off a lot of new users who aren't used to that. So, it makes it very much more accessible. Adam: I mean, it's interesting. I mean, this is a very, you know, well-kept path, a lovely path which we don't often see or don't always see in woodlands and you've clearly gone to a lot of effort to improve access. Is there a sort of tension between your duty to safeguard the natural world and your duty to allow access, to encourage people to engage with it? Heather: Absolutely. It's, one of our big sort of priorities for the project is to create, to find that balance. Adam: Is there a trade-off? I mean, I mean, I just wonder whether that's an easy balance to achieve or do you have to lose on one side to gain on the other? Heather: I don't think so. You know, Londonthorpe is not an ancient woodland, it's… this we're walking through now was planted in the early 1990s, so it's about 30 years old. So, it hasn't, you know, we weren't doing any damage necessarily to anything. I can't say it wasn't of value, it is of value, but it's not, we weren't losing anything dramatic. It was… we were quite careful when we put the paths in, they were all… these, you know, through the woodland sections were no dig, so, it's not disturbing any of the tree roots, you can see them right up against the path. So no, I don't think it has been too much of a battle. Adam: and encouraging people to engage in woodlands and places like this – what is your hope? I mean, I mean, it's a very nice sort of thing for people to do to wander around. There's no charge, especially in these days – that's a lovely free thing for the family to do… go in, you know, investigate a Woodland Trust wood. But do you think there's a greater purpose in trying to encourage that engagement? Heather: I think so, I think one of the things that we found so interesting was that, you know, our project actually got off the ground right as the pandemic started. But during the development phase we had done some number count… you know, some people counters on the site counting how many people are coming through and during the pandemic, those numbers more than doubled. And I think that what we have found… you hear it all over the show… the value and the benefit of wildlife to people's mental health and I think that that has, that's a very big deal for us, is that, there's not a lot of green space available in Grantham and it's, a big part of our project is trying to tell people that we're here, that it's free to visit and that it's a huge benefit to them in so many ways. Adam: Well, we've just come out of this woodland area very densely packed woodland area to a lovely sort of open, open bit, which is fantastic. I mean, tell me a bit about the landscape here and the sort of different varieties we're seeing. Heather: So, it's one of the things that I love so much about the site is that every 10 minutes you walk into a different landscape [laughter] it changes all the time. But just to our right on that side of the site is where the Belton estate is and when we get around the corner, you'll see that this landscape is very similar to that and it was actually planted, as I mentioned in the 1990s, to reflect that landscape. So that's why we've got these big open grassland areas, some more densely packed woodland. Further on in the south, there's a lot of scrubland. So very much trying to keep it in keeping with the Belton estate. Adam: And how important, you talked about trying to offer this as a facility for the local community. How, how engaged are they? Heather: Very much more since we've done the… made the changes to the site. As I said, we've seen the numbers go up a lot. We've had a really, really positive response to the changes. And our project is funded by the National Lottery Heritage Fund, so we've got two full-time staff on the project, me being one of them. And we've got a community development officer on the site as well. And a large part of his job is to promote the project in the town, engage with community groups, invite them out to show them what we've got and so that, that's making a big difference, that people, more people know about it. Adam: And in terms of local volunteers, is there a sort of army of people willing to come and help or is that is that just a hope at the moment? Heather: No, we've got a group, a couple of groups are really, really engaged fantastic volunteers. So, we've got a group that do guided walks for us. So, they do different themed walks. We do walk from the Belton House to Bellmount Tower on a regular basis and we do military history walks. And then we've also got a really active group of wildlife monitor volunteers. So, they've been monitoring birds, butterflies, doing transects all over the site. Adam: And are we meeting someone who's one of those volunteers? Heather: Yes, that's Edd! Edd Cullen. He's been with us now, I think he'll probably have to tell you, but about a few months now. Adam: Right. So early start. [laughter] Early start. Fresh blood, fresh blood. Well, look and to the left, well, that looks like a golf course or something. It's a very well-manicured bit of land… maybe not a golf course, is that just someone's private garden? Heather: No, that's also part of the Belton House estate. It is a golf course. They're on a long-term lease. Adam: Right, okay. Fantastic. Well, I'm gonna go off and meet Edd who is just lurching. He's not lurching. He's lurking. That was the word I was looking for. He's lurking. He's lurking by a tree down the path here. Edd, who is one of the volunteers. I'm going to talk to him about the work that they do here. Pause Hi. So, you're one of the volunteers. Is that right? Edd: I am yeah. Adam: So, what do you volunteer with? What, what do you do? Edd: Well so, currently this year we've been doing weekly butterfly surveys and monthly bird surveys. So, each, each week we come to do a butterfly survey. It's just the end of the season now that's finished. But we carry on with the monthly bird surveys throughout the year. Hopefully in the future when we get more volunteers, we'll look to expand that to dragonfly surveys or nesting birds, breeding territories, and that sort of thing. Adam: And how do you do those surveys? I mean, is it literally just wandering around going oh that's a nice butterfly? [Laughter] Edd: For the butterfly survey we follow a set route around the… transect around the site, made up of several legs, and we walk along, and we observe 2.5 metres either side of us and monitor and note any butterflies we see as we go along the, along, along the transect. We walk at a steady pace and go all the way around and see what we find in each leg. Adam: Butterflies are quite small. I mean, how difficult is it [Laughter] I mean I do see a butterfly, but I think if I went out looking for one, I probably wouldn't find one. How hard is it actually? Edd: It's quite tricky to begin with. But then you sort of after a while, you know what to look for certain flowers they like to be around and certain movements you see near the vegetation. So, after a while, you do sort of get the hang of it. Adam: And did you know this site before the Woodland Trust sort of got heavily involved. Edd: I've been here quite a lot before, before I became a volunteer, and I really liked to, enjoyed walking around it. So now I'm a volunteer here. It's quite good to be able to have a reason to visit every week. And even if we don't see many butterflies, it's still a nice walk. Adam: Have you noticed much of a change in the landscape here in the past few years or indeed how many butterflies and birds you've managed to see? Edd: Well, I've just been doing it, this is my first year volunteering. Volunteers tell me this year butterfly numbers were lower than they had been in previous years. So, I'm not quite sure if that's due to the climate or, or something like that, but in peak season, when we were doing the surveys, I think the most we saw was a couple of hundred on the transect, but it can be much more than that. Adam: Wow, sorry, I thought you were going to go, oh I saw ten! Over a couple of hundred butterflies! Edd: Yeah, we can do on the busiest days. Yeah. Adam: Okay. That's very cool. Why did you get involved as a volunteer? What attracted you to that? Edd: Well, my goal is to work in the conservation sector, and I recently graduated from doing a master's degree in biodiversity conservation. So, I was looking to get some more experience doing some sort of hands-on survey work. Adam: What would you say to other people who are listening to this and say oh I quite fancy spotting butterflies? I mean, what would you say about the joys of doing that or whether that's something you'd recommend? Edd: Oh yeah, I definitely recommend it! It's really, really enjoyable, and it's always exciting when you see a species you haven't seen before. There's quite a few different ones. Yeah, it's always really exciting. Adam: And how did you apply then? You just went to the website, or you stood outside headquarters? Edd: Well, I saw information about the reconnecting project on social media. So, I emailed to find out more, see if there's any volunteering going on. And I got an email back saying that there's a wildlife monitoring team and I thought that sounds great. It sounds just like I want to do. So yeah, I got, I got involved. Adam: So, if you're interested, have a look at the website and follow them on Twitter and… Edd: Yeah, absolutely Adam: Brilliant. But in terms of butterflies then are there any, any special to this site, or do you have favourites? Edd: I'm not sure there's any that's special to this site, but my favourite I've seen is the painted lady. I've seen quite a few of those this year. They're really really, really vibrant. Really really nice to see. I saw quite a few species though… about… I think about a dozen species I've seen so far. We've had small and Essex skippers and common butterflies, red admiral, common blue. So, lots of different kinds. Adam: Did you have to learn what those butterflies were? Did you come fully armed with butterfly knowledge? Edd: Well, my butterfly knowledge… didn't have… wasn't extensive when I started. But luckily I'm paired up with a more experienced volunteer and was able to learn a lot from them and learn more as I go as I spot them, and doing it every week you see the same butterflies every week, and you sort of pick up what species they are. Adam: Brilliant. Well Edd, thank you very much. I'm gonna leave Edd there and go back to Heather for, sort of, a final word really on what she hopes the future for this site will hold. Heather: So, the project runs for four… is gonna run for four years. We've got another two years left on the project and we hope that by the time we get to the end of the National Lottery Heritage Fund funding that that will, we will have engaged really successfully with a number of community groups in the town. So, my hope really is that that will continue indefinitely after the life of the project and that this will become a really special valued place for the people of Grantham. Adam: Well, it's lovely, lovely. And lovely weather as ever on these walks. I'm always blessed with good weather… shouldn't jinx it. But thank you Heather, that's brilliant. Thank you Heather, thank you very much. Heather: Thank you. Adam: Do remember you can find a wood near you by looking at the Woodland Trust website, which is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, or indeed you can just type in find a wood into your search engine of choice and it will direct you to that Woodland Trust page. But until next time and another wood somewhere in the country I look forward to walking with you then. Until then, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners, and volunteers and don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walks special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Join us for an episode of virtual time travel to visit Hatfield Forest, Essex and explore over 2,000 years of rich history. As we journey through this outdoor museum, we chat to Tom Reed, a Woodland Trust ancient tree expert, and Ian Pease, a National Trust ranger, who explain why the wildlife and cultural value of these trees makes them irreplaceable. Discover why ancient trees are so important, what makes a tree ancient, how people have lived and worked with them through the centuries and the urgent need to better protect them. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, today I am off to Hatfield Forest, which is the best-preserved medieval hunting forest in Europe, which has a very rich history stretching back, well, a very long time, some 2,000 years or so. Now, the forest itself is actually managed by the National Trust, but the Woodland Trust works very closely with them. In particular, the reason I'm going there is to look at and talk about ancient trees, their importance to people and landscape, and of course, how old you have to be to be ancient. Ian: My name is Ian Pease, and I'm one of the rangers here for the National Trust at Hatfield Forest. Adam: And so how long has your association been with this forest then? Ian: Well, it's getting on for 30 years. Adam: You're looking good on it. Ian: Thank you. Thank you. [Laughter] Adam: That's very cool. Now look I have met you by this extraordinary, well, is it a tree or is it two trees? Inaudible just describe where we are standing. Ian: So, we are standing just to the left of the entrance road as you come into the forest and this is a magnificent hornbeam, er and although, like you say Adam, it looks like it's two trees it is actually one. Adam: How do you, how do you know? Ian: Well, it's done what's called compartmentalise. So, what happens when trees get to this age –and this tree is without a doubt probably around 700 years old – is the heartwood falls away and you're left… Adam: The heartwood's in the middle? Ian: The heartwood, the heartwood in the centre falls away, and what you're left with is the living part of the tree, which is the sapwood and what you can see there is that what trees do, trees are very good at adapting when they get older. And they are generally very good at adapting throughout their lives. So, what has happened here is this tree has stabilised itself by compartmentalising, so sealed off these two halves to stabilise itself and you can also see what we call aerial roots starting to come down from the canopy which gives the tree the rigidity and strength. Adam: So, where is that? I can't see, let's have a look, what do you mean? Ian: Yeah, so let's have a closer look. Adam: I've never heard of aerial roots. Ian: You can see these structures… Adam: Yes, I see. Ian: …these structures are what we call aerial roots. Adam: Yeah, they do look like… but they're not in the ground, they're in the air. So where are they...? What function are they serving? Ian: Well, they're basically supporting the tree and what's happened here, this is an old pollard, so originally, they'd have been what we call bowling in the top there, and the roots would have gone down into that sort of composted material that was captured in the bowling, and as that's gradually fallen away that's what you're left with at the top there. Adam: So, these roots are supporting the tree as opposed to bringing it nutrients or anything? Ian: Well, they are supplying nutrients for it from this compost material… Adam: Oh, I see, which is still there. Ian: You can still see some of it there. What's happened obviously is as the trees aged, it's fallen through. Um and you can see the compartmentalisation on the edges there. A sort of almost callous effect. Adam: Well, amazing, well look I gotta get a photo of you by this which I will put on my Twitter account. Do you have a Twitter account? Ian: I haven't, but I've got Instagram and Facebook. Adam: I'm sure we'll put it on all of those things so you can see what Ian is talking about. Fantastic, well look, this is just the beginning. And you said it was the ancient way, the ancient tree way? The road? Ian: Er no this isn't the ancient way. This is, this is the vehicle accessway into the forest. But having said that Adam, there is stagecoaches who used to travel from the east heading to Bishop… sorry, heading down to London, would cut through Hatfield Forest to cut out Bishop Stortford. Adam: [laughter] Okay right. An ancient cut-through. There we are. Ian: That's it. Adam: There we are. Not quite up-to-date traffic news, [laughter] but if you're a time traveller, that's a bit of traffic news for you. Look, my first visit here, we've come on an amazing day, I'm very, very lucky. What would you suggest I look out for here? Ian: Well certainly if you go for a walk through… what I, what I sort of advise people to do is to go for a walk around the lake area to start with because that way as you go down to the lake area you go through the medieval landscape. And what's nice about the lake area is you've got the 1740s landscape, so that's the Capability Brown heart to the forest. He was employed here in the 1740s before the National Trust had the forest. It was owned by the Houblon family, and he developed, formed the lake down there and built a shell house next to the lake. So, you could almost go on a bit of a time travel, you know virtual time travel, by walking through this wood pasture where we are now amongst these stunning ancient trees. Take yourself into the 1740s and walk around the lake and then and then go from there. Adam: Brilliant. I'm heading off to the 1740s, what a fantastic bit of map reading that will be. Thank you very much, Ian. Really, really nice to see you. Ian: You're welcome, you're welcome. [Walking noise] Adam: Well, I'm just walking out actually, into a bit of open field here. Ooh look wild mushrooms… must avoid that. Don't want to trample on those. And beneath one of these trees is Tom from the Woodland Trust, and he is going to be my guide to the rest of this amazing forest. [Walking noise] Adam: So, Tom, I assume? Hi! What an amazing place, amazing place isn't it? Tom: An amazing place Adam, hi, nice to meet you. Adam: First of all, this is an unusual forest in terms of the Woodland Trust because it's actually the National Trust, but you sort of… this is a joint project or, explain the relationship? Why this is different? Tom: So, the National Trust and the Woodland Trust are both really passionate about seeing the protection of ancient and veteran trees, are interested in studying them and knowing where they are. So, when… we're here today because the National Trust and the Woodland Trust have been working together, well, for quite a few years actually, we've been working together to map ancient and veteran trees to our Ancient Tree Inventory. And also, in the past year and a half, we've also been working with the National Trust on a project called the Green Recovery Project, which was a Challenge Fund that we, both organisations, were working on. This was actually one of the sites, in fact, I was here just six months ago where I got to see first-hand some of the restoration work that was being done to some of these trees, some of the historic pollarded hornbeams for example. We got to see how they are now being managed and cared for here by the Trusts. Adam: And it is an amazing place. I mean we're lucky to be here on a great day. Oh! You can hear… we're near Stansted, so you might hear an airplane in the background there. Oh, but we've come out of this lovely, sort of, bit of woodland into this amazing open area here and it's, it does feel a very mixed sort of landscape doesn't it? Tom: Absolutely, I think if, if you're walking here with your dog or just on a fun day out, you might just think to yourself ‘ah this is a field or some nice trees here'. But actually, when you stop and look around you can see these living links to the past, and what we, walking through here is a medieval landscape where you've got a mixture of ancient trees, we can see some decaying oaks in the background over there. We've actually just walked past some large hornbeam pollards. So, these are trees that were working trees, hundreds of years ago that were managed as part of this landscape to provide timber for those who manage them, worked and lived in the area. So, to be able to walk past trees like that and, you know, to touch them – these living monuments – is just a real privilege. Well, we've got a mix here, we've got a mix of young trees, mature trees, ancient trees, and this area that we're stood on now is called, referred to as wood pasture because it was historically a wood landscape, where you had both a mix of livestock agriculture and also tree management as well. Adam: Well look, it's amazing just to our left there's two lovely trees, and I… I don't know what they are… but they're so lovely two people have stopped to take photos of them and I mean just a measure of how beautiful some of these, this landscape is. What… just a quick test… do you happen to know what that tree is? Tom: Yeah. So, we've got two, sort of, mature hawthorns there, so erm elsewhere in the forest there are actually some much older hawthorns… we have some ancient hawthorns here that would be several hundred years old. These are probably mature, probably over 100–150 years old… Adam: And they got lovely sort of red, red splattering over them. It just looks like someone's painted that, it's quite, quite an amazing sight. So, you talk about ancient trees. So what? What classifies a tree as ancient then? Because if [laugh] these were young and they're like 100 or something. So, what's ancient exactly? Tom: So, it's a great question. So ancient trees are those that are in their third and final life stage essentially. So, the sort of, the age at which we call different species ancient is different because different species have different life expectancies, and they have different growth rates. So, for example, if we look at yew trees, we make all those ancient from around about 400 to 500 years plus. If we look at hawthorn, for example, we would say they're probably ancient from around about 200 years of age. So, it does vary depending on which species you are referring to, but essentially the ancient phases, the third and final life stage… and very few trees actually live old enough to become ancient. It's only sites like this where the trees have been retained where, you know, these trees not been disturbed, they've not been felled, there's been no development here. So, these trees have survived in the landscape and been allowed to survive and that's why we can enjoy them today. So yeah, that's what an ancient tree is. Adam: And I mean, obviously there's almost a sentimental reason you, you don't want to destroy something which is 700 years old. But from an environmental perspective, do ancient trees offer the environment, do they offer animals something more than a younger tree does? Tom: Absolutely. I mean, I like to think of ancient trees as being like a living oasis for wildlife essentially. So, these are areas where you've got a huge variety of habitats both, you know, within like the tree structure, in the roots, in the canopy, even within like the heartwood and the hollows. So, ancient trees offer huge benefits for wildlife. Adam: But sorry, you're saying that's more… a 700-year-old tree would offer more environmental benefits than a 100-year-old tree. Is that what you're saying? Tom: Yeah, if you are comparing trees of the same species. Adam: So why is that? What is happening in that period that offers that benefit then? Tom: So, the reason really is owed to the decaying wood habitat. So as a tree ages, you get natural decay that's often caused by special heart rot fungi that can decay the tree. So, as it's standing it's decaying slowly over time, and by – that decaying wood – it kind of creates a load of microhabitats, so you get huge benefits for invertebrates. In fact, the site we're on today is one of the top ten sites in the UK for rare invertebrates because of the decaying wood habitats that are here. If you imagine a decaying tree with hollows and cavities and water pockets… imagine if you're an invertebrate, you know, you're such a small organism and you've got this huge ancient tree with all this variety of habitats. I mean you've essentially got… your whole world is in this tree, it's a whole universe of habitats. So, that's why they're important. Adam: So, it's quite poetic, isn't it? In its decay… the very fact it's decaying offers new life. Tom: Absolutely, exactly. So, they become, you know, just… they just transform into these oases for wildlife and it's owing to the decaying habitats that they have. Adam: And what's the oldest trees that you've got around here then? Tom: Yeah. Well, so some of these trees may well be in excess of 700 to 800 years of age. Adam: And are they yew? Because yew trees tend to last the longest don't they? Tom: Yeah. So, a lot of the oldest trees on this site will be pollards. So pollarding is where you cut the branches of a tree above head height. This was a historic, sort of, tree management practice – essentially the people who used to live and work here wanted to farm their livestock, and in order to make sure that they didn't, sort of, graze on the trees that they also used to harvest timber from, they were able to cut the tree above head height, typically above two metres in height. And what that does is quite two things. For the people managing these trees, it means that they can easily harvest the timber because in absence of power tools… imagine they were using hand tools and as the tree gets cut back it regrows into sort of finer, smaller stems that can be more easily harvested. Adam: And that's the sign of pollarding, isn't it? If you're a tree detective and you see these, sort of, small stems all coming up it's a sign it's been a pollarded tree. Tom: Absolutely, typically it will have, like, a fluted form cut around about two metres at head height and you'll see like a typical pollard knuckle, which is where you see all of these stems converging on the same point. But pollarding does actually bring some benefits to the tree as well and that's why some of the oldest trees here will be pollards because it has the effect of almost stabilising the tree. It means that the tree doesn't get too top-heavy and then collapses and dies. Instead, it keeps the trees more typically smaller and if they're regularly cut that keeps the tree in that stable form. So even the sort of the trees here which are, you know, extremely hollow, they look like, you know, how are they even still standing, because, like, what's supporting them? Because they're being managed as pollards. And then, you know, there are some sites where pollarding has stopped, you know, for example at Burnham Beeches is a site where you can see a lot of the pollards have not been pollarded for a long time and they've started to become top-heavy now, so and that presents a risk that you get greater wind loading and then they fall. So going back to what we were talking about the Green Recovery project that we are working on with the National Trust. And like I said, I was here six months ago, and we got to see some of the tree management here and we got to see some pollarding essentially. So, they were sort of cutting back the… some branches in the canopy to basically continue the pollarding management to try and replicate what was being done hundreds of years ago to make sure that these trees can survive for many years to come. Adam: Amazing that. Ian. Ian promised me some time travel. He pointed me towards the Capability Brown landscape. Do you know which way that is? Tom: Yeah, that would be straight back down the track. Adam: I was going to say, it's going the other way. Okay, but do you think we should head this way first? Tom: Yeah. Well, I mean, we can. We can go. Adam: I'm going with you. I'm going with you and will… I'm definitely going to see the Capability Brown later, but you lead me on. Tom: We can certainly make our way back there. Adam: So, tell me about where we're heading. Tom: So now we're just, we're walking through a sort of former medieval landscape. So, we've got a variety of trees here, we've got some oaks, we've got hawthorns, we've got field maples, we've got hornbeams. And if we're walking here, we can just see the sheer variety of trees in the landscape. So, when I'm walking through this landscape and I can't help but think about, you know, the people who were working here and living here and the way that this, the site, was managed. We can hear overhead planes are leaving Stansted Airport and I can only imagine what those people would have thought about that [laugh]. And it just, it just makes you think about the changes that this landscape has seen. And erm obviously the reason that we have ancient trees here is because this part of the landscape has remained unchanged. So, whilst there's been a lot of change around this site, this area has survived and that's ultimately enabled these trees to survive as well. Adam: Now you look after a lot of woodland. What separates this from lots of the other things that you've got an association with? Tom: So, I suppose what's really interesting about this site is that it's a former forest and then when we think about forests, people typically think about trees and they probably picture woodland, but actually… Adam: That's fair enough, isn't it? Tom: It's fair enough, but forest actually has a very different meaning in terms of the medieval sense. So, a forest was essentially an area of land that was subject to special hunting laws and these new areas were preserved really for the royals and, well, the royals and their sort of associates to hunt deer and enjoy riding through the landscape and they liked this kind of open landscape where the trees were kind of scattered. So, when you think of forests, like people typically think of dense woodland, but actually, it's more like this. It's big trees in a sort of sparse landscape where deer are allowed to run around, and the royals could be… were there on horseback sort of chasing them and hunting them. It was sort of a sport for them. And in a lot of sense, the commoners, if you like, were kept away from sites like this. An erm, but then the kind of, the legacy has been preserved. Adam: And it's interesting, isn't it, that because we think of these as natural places, they are natural places, that's what's important about them. But they're not unmanaged. It's not like the hand of man has not had a role in shaping this has very much been a man-made, a man-shaped environment. Is that fair? Tom: That's absolutely fair, yes. If I was… what's interesting when we look at ancient tree distribution more generally, there is a clear link between humans and where ancient trees are. So, for example, you might find ancient yew trees often in a churchyard setting, coz often…, well, ancient yews were respected by sort of earlier civilizations, the early Christians, even before that, the Druids respected ancient yews, which is why they've kind of been retained and associated with places of religious worship, you know, so there's always those kind of links between where humans have been and where ancient trees are now. And it just shows that really throughout history we've respected our trees, you know, other civilizations and cultures have respected these trees and you know, now we need to respect them too and continue their legacy. Adam: And I suppose one of the things that's striking for me is that although we are near Stansted, although it hasn't taken me long to drive from London, as far as you can see, you can't see anything. It's sort of trees for as far as you can see. It's a remarkable oasis in a rather heavily developed part of the UK. Tom: Absolutely. You know, to be able to come to this site only like an hour away from London is quite remarkable really, that places like this have survived. It's like a living outdoor museum almost. You know, you can go up to some of these trees, put your hand on them and these were the same trees that were being worked on over 500 years ago. You know… how many elements of nature can you say that about? You know, it's a remarkable privilege to be able to go and visit trees like that. That were managed hundreds of years ago. Adam: OK, now there is a suitable bench almost shaped fallen branch, so maybe we can head over there for a sit down and a chat. Tom: Sounds good. Hey, got some good sort of… at the top of the tree there, you've got something called retrenchment which is basically where the tree is dying back essentially. Adam: Right. Tom: So, over time like the canopy sort of reorganises itself. And then the tree kind of grows downward eventually. So, trees don't grow infinitely up and up and up, they tend to get… they die down and they get broader over time. Adam: So that's the sign of a change in its lifestyle… life stage sorry? Tom: Absolutely. Adam: So, we can see some sort of dead branches at the top that means it's coming into another stage, it's probably going to thicken out a bit. Tom: Exactly. Yeah. So, what I mean… what's happening essentially as the tree reaches a sort of theoretical maximum size… eventually, the tree can't transport that water from the roots. That kind of hydraulic action becomes limited. It can't pump water to the very top of the tree and so it, kind of, stops investing in those branches. It's grown to a good height, it doesn't need to compete with other trees around it, so it starts to reorganise itself. And those branches at the top start to die back and instead the tree invests in some of those like low… what were lower branches and they become more dominant, and the tree becomes broader in profile. The trunk becomes much wider as well. So, it's a typical sign of an ancient tree that they will typically have a large girth for their species. Like the trunk will have a large circumference for its species. That's like a key sign. Adam: Alright, look, this isn't… I can't quite sit on this one, but this is a very very pleasant place to stop. So, one of the big projects from the Woodland Trust is this Ancient Tree Inventory and I think you're sort of… you're in charge of that. So, what is that? Why is it important? Tom: So, the Ancient Tree Inventory is a citizen science project. So it's something that anyone can take part in and essentially what it seeks to do is to map ancient, veteran and notable trees across the UK to an online interactive map that everyone can, sort of, see, use, and enjoy. It started as a project called the Ancient Tree Hunt and essentially it was just to get ancient trees on the radar really, to get people inspired by them, to get people out there recording them. And in that project alone they mapped over 100,000 trees. But since then, it continued under the name of the Ancient Tree Inventory, and we're continuing to map trees on a daily basis. So, we have a network of volunteers around the UK who are more expert volunteers who are called verifiers, and what they are doing is going out and checking trees that members of the public have added. So, if people have been on a walk and have seen a big tree or a tree that looks like it's old – might be ancient, might be veteran – they add it to the map, that gets recorded as an unverified tree and then one of our volunteer verifiers comes along, they'll visit the tree and they'll assess whether they think it's an ancient tree or a veteran or a notable. They'll also maybe take some extra measurements of the tree, they'll check that it's been recorded in the right place and that the species has been identified correctly, things like that. Essentially what we're trying to do with the Ancient Tree Inventory, as well as raising awareness about ancient and veteran trees, is also, erm, our role in terms of research and understanding their current distribution. But also, from their protection point of view, the Ancient Tree Inventory is actually a really useful resource for the likes of people doing environmental impact assessments. So, we get a lot of requests for data from ecological consultants, from arboriculture consultants, even the local authorities that want to know where are the most significant ancient and veteran trees in their county or on a particular site, so that that can then be used to help inform, you know, planning decisions and, you know, we'd like to think that that is going to grow more that when, for example, there's a development or, you know, some sort of proposed change to an area that people will consult the Ancient Tree Inventory and they'll consider, sort of, changing plans if ancient or veteran trees are going to be harmed. We really just want to make sure that there is no loss… further loss of ancient and veteran trees essentially. Adam: And what sort of protection do ancient trees have? Do they have… like a listed building you get listed protection so you can't mess around with it. You can't knock it down, can't alter it. Does a 700-year-old tree get the same protection as a 700-year-old piece of brick? Tom: Well, I'm afraid to say the answer to that is no. So, none of the ancient trees, don't have any legal protection in the UK. As you say, some of our most treasured monuments and buildings benefit from scheduled monument status, but for ancient trees which may be of, at least the same age if not older, they don't have any protection. In fact, I remember on a recent visit to a churchyard where we went to see a really remarkable ancient yew tree, I think someone jokingly said at the time that the wood in the beams of that church are probably more protected than the wood in the trunk of that ancient yew tree. And that, kind of, really opened my mind to that whole debate on making that comparison between built heritage monuments and ancient trees. And we really want to see ancient trees be more considered as features of our cultural heritage, archaeological heritage, you know, they really are these living monuments and we need to look after them. Adam: Do you get a sense that public opinion is swinging in that direction to support ancient trees? Tom: Yeah, I think it is. I mean, you know, based on my role of working on the Ancient Tree Inventory, I've the fortune of speaking to members of the public about their ancient trees. And we do get lots of concern expressed to the Woodland Trust about, you know, what's happening to ancient and veteran trees in their area. But there is actually something that we're doing at the moment at the Trust which is our Living Legends campaign that launched earlier this year. So, we're actually making an attempt to gain stronger protection for ancient and veteran trees. We have a petition that's live at the moment and the campaign has a lot of different activities happening at the moment, but one of the headline things anyone can do is sign our petition where we're calling for stronger legal protection, for that to be reflected in policy so that there is basically legal protection to stop any harm to the trees. Adam: Okay. So, if someone's interested in being a volunteer and, sort of, adding to that inventory, how do they go about it? Tom: Yeah, so anyone can take part in the Ancient Tree Inventory. All they need to do is go to the Ancient Tree Inventory website where they'll be able to register, and they'll be able to create a free account. Essentially that means that when you sign into your account, you can just record the trees. The main things that you'll need to record are things like, you know, where the tree is so you take like a grid reference. Erm, if you can record the girth of the tree – so, this is the circumference of the tree – of the trunk itself… Adam: So, you need a long tape measure? Tom: Yeah, we typically suggest having a tape measure around about 10 metres where you can often get like a surveyor's tape from your local hardware store for example. And you can measure the trunk, normally about one and a half metres from ground level for consistency. You're really looking for the narrowest girth of this trunk. So, if the tree has like a big, sort of, burr, or if there's like a low hanging branch, then just record underneath it to try and get the narrowest measurement. So that… and that's essentially the most technical elements. If you can just record as well the species of the tree, whether it's on public or private land, do make sure to record some photos as well. The key things that we're really interested in looking at with a tree when we're assessing whether it's ancient or veteran is our veteran features or decay features. So, these are the kind of decaying wood habitats, for example, if the tree is hollowing, if the tree has decaying branches… so the tree behind me here has some deadwood in the top of the crown – this is what we call retrenchment. And any other kind of deadwood cavities, water pockets, holes, that sort of thing is all great to capture, both in the record itself, but also in the images too. Obviously, the more that people can tell us about trees, the more we know. And then it makes it a much more valuable resource. So, we always encourage people to submit as much information as they can. Adam: And if I mean like me, I'm very bad at spotting tree types. If you don't, if you see an old tree and you think I wanna record that, but I don't know what sort of tree it is, is that a problem or can you just go look, here's a photo, you'll probably know better than I do? Tom: Yeah. So, it is possible to record the species as unsure. It might be that you know that it's an oak, but you're not sure if it's pedunculate or sessile, so you can just record it as oak. We have a network of volunteer verifiers who are sort of ancient tree experts who will check… Adam: Check your homework for you. Tom: Yeah, exactly. Adam: And if you can't spot the tree type, there is actually a Woodland Trust app, isn't there? Tom: Yeah, that's right Adam, we have a… the Woodland Trust has a species identification app that you can use as well. The good thing is that for our ancient trees, most of the time they are actually native. So, the common native species are typically going to be, you know, oaks, beech, ash, hornbeam, yew trees. So, you know, these are species that most people are quite familiar with cause they tend to be native. Adam: We should do a podcast on that, sort of, how to spot the top five native UK trees. An idea for another podcast… you may be dragged back into this. Fantastic. Tom: Sounds good. [Pause] Adam: So, we've been walking through a beautiful sort of woodland glade, a very covered area. And what is typical of this particular site is that you do come out into so many different landscapes and so we've come out into this very open area, all of a sudden with this extraordinarily large lake. I think there's something suspiciously like a tearoom next door which might attract my attention in a moment… and a couple of seats finally to sit down. So, Tom, now… It's a beautiful place. I mean we're, we're... The weeds rustling in the wind, framing the lake in front of us… There's some ducks and some rowing boats and this is a wonderful place. But I… the feature here is ancient woodland, so is there a way of sort of measuring the value of a particular tree? Do you… is it very just sort of thumb in the air, sort of thing, in the wind… or is there a more scientific approach you can take? Tom: Yeah, I think there are lots of ways in which different people value their ancient trees and so one acronym we tend to use to capture, sort of, the main themes of why we value our ancient trees, can be thought of as ABC. So that stands for aesthetic value, biological value and cultural value. There is also historical value, which I'll talk about in a moment, but think about, sort of, aesthetic value and why our ancient trees are important, you know, can you imagine, sort of, walking through the landscape that we're walking today without the ancient trees? They do provide, like the character of this site, you know, walking and seeing these big hollowing living monuments – they're almost like sculptures. And, you know, not just on these sorts of sites, but if you think of what would our churchyards look like without our ancient yews? Or what would our hedgerows look like without those old hawthorn trees? Or what would our, sort of, the Highlands of Scotland look like without those, kind of remarkable lone standing-proud alders, and rowans and hollies that are like really typical of that landscape? So, because ancient trees form, like, a really important part of the overall character of our landscape that's one way in which we value them. The other way, of course, is biologically, so they provide immense habitat variety for wildlife and a single tree can support thousands of species and that's owing to the decaying wood habitats that they have. So as a tree ages it naturally hollows, starts to break down, you get hollowing in the branches, in the trunk, you get hollowing around the base of the tree – what we call buttressing. All of these create pockets and habitats and even microhabitats for wildlife, so it can be used by a range of organisms from birds to reptiles, to mammals like squirrels, badgers. For example, with birds, as well, owls will use them, they will actually use the cavities found in the canopies of ancient trees, they make their nests. Same for woodpeckers, which will use decaying wood to make their nests and bore for invertebrates. And of course, the invertebrates themselves – the opportunities provided to invertebrates by ancient trees is remarkable. There's a special term to describe invertebrates that depend on decaying wood, and that word is saproxylic. So, saproxylic invertebrates are those which depend on this decaying wood for a part of their life cycle. And then there is also the cultural value that we place on our ancient trees. Adam: So, that's the C. Tom: That's the C in our ABC. Adam: So, tell me about the cultural values. Now actually… that must be a hard thing to measure? Tom: Absolutely so, it's not always clear, in fact, that some trees you may walk past and not know that that tree has been, or you know what it's seen in its life and how other people in the past have interacted with it. For example, ancient trees in the churchyards, so it is often that you find ancient yew trees linked with former sites of religious worship because the… our early ancestors, the druids, and the sort of, early Christians had a… they saw, essentially, ancient yew trees as a deity, they worshipped them, they respected them. And as a result, those ancient yews persisted in that landscape. Adam: The cultural aspect, there's a cultural aspect, but there is also, it doesn't run from the alphabet [inaudible] ABC H, there's an H isn't there? A historical reference here, because these trees have been around for 700 years, 1000 years – kings and queens will have wandered under these trees, important decisions would have been made. Historic really, really historic decisions would be made. And under the boughs of these trees. Tom: Absolutely. And so, there are some trees around UK which we refer to as heritage trees that have… that we know have bared witness to some important historical moments. Or that well-known historical figures that visited those trees. For example, we have the Queen Elizabeth Oak or we have the Tolpuddle Martyrs' Tree which is thought to bear witness to the start of the trade union movement in the 1800s, and we have the Ankerwycke Yew that bared witness to the signing of the Magna Carta by King John, under that very tree. And it's still there today, a tree that is over 2,000 years old has, you know, such important historical values – irreplaceable in fact. That is probably the one word that we would like people to associate with trees – is the word irreplaceable. Because if that tree was to be lost, you would lose all of that historical reference. Adam: Fantastic. You know this site well, I mean you've come a long way to see me today, so I'm super pleased and very grateful for the guide. But I know you love this place, don't you? Tom: Absolutely. I need no excuse to come here. I think it just feels like walking back in history essentially. And there's just an amazing variety of trees. Yeah, I could just spend the whole week here. Adam: I think my family might miss me in a week, but who knows? They might not… they might not notice. But they're certainly not going to notice for the rest of day, so I'm going to take the rest of the day here. Thank you very much. Well, my thanks to Ian from the National Trust and Tom from the Woodland Trust but most of all, I suppose, thanks to you for listening. Now do remember if you want to find a wood near you, well, the Woodland Trust has a website to help. Just go to woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Now you can find a wood near you. Well, until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners, and volunteers and don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walks special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Much as I love a woodland walk, my tree identification skills leave a lot to be desired, so I travelled to Londonthorpe Wood, Grantham for a lesson from the experts. We join tree ID guru Sally to learn how to recognise common trees from their leaves, catkins, bark and berries. From apple and ash to hawthorn and hazel, she also tells us more about the trees' value for wildlife. I learned so much during this episode, and I hope you do too. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Do you know what? I have been wandering around woods for many years and I've been doing so rather ignorantly. I mean, I like it and everything, but I actually don't know the names, or the histories, or the importance of a lot of the trees I am passing. So, I've tried to correct that, and to do that I'm taking a little lesson. I'm going back to school, and I'm doing that with the assistance of Sally Bavin, who is the assistant conservation evidence officer at the Woodland Trust. And we're going to Londonthorpe Wood, which is near Grantham, which is in fact near the headquarters of the Woodland Trust. And she's going to run me through some of the key things to look out for in trees. Now, of course, we're coming to the end of the easy season to identify trees because leaves are a big clue. Leaves are falling off the trees, as is their wont at this time of year. But nonetheless, there are still enough of them around for me to make a good guess and I thought it was high time I learn something and hopefully have a bit of fun and share that insight with you. So, off to Londonthorpe Wood, it is! And I'm gonna meet Sally Bavin from the Woodland Trust. So, Sally, hi! We've met under a tree. Look at… I can tell straight away it's an apple tree because it has apples on it! [Laugh] Sally: Yes! Adam: But I come for some lessons – gone back to school. You know, how to identify trees when they don't have apples on them, so they are not as easily identifiable. So, is this what you do at the Trust? Go around identifying trees? Is this what you do normally? Sally: [Laugh] Not all the time, but a small part of my role is, erm I lead a tree ID course. So, it's just an afternoon, we run it about every six months. Adam: Yes, I have to say, I mean I was very keen to do this, well, because I've gone to lots of woodlands, I am very ignorant about identifying trees. And I was thinking, we've gotta rush before all the leaves fall off, because then it's a lot harder, but they're still, there are trees that have got lots of leaves.  So, before we start the course. Why is it important to know what a tree is – what species of tree you're looking at? Sally: Yeah, well, I think it depends. It depends on who you are as to what your interest is in the trees. I think generally for just the public it's a nice thing to note, help you understand your surroundings of a lot better and it's a sort of the first step into connecting with nature, at a bit of a deeper level than just enjoying the greenery. Because you can then look for the specific things about different species that changed throughout the seasons, and you can be expecting the apples and looking out for them in summer when they're only just appearing. That sort of thing.  So, it's good for helping people to connect with nature on a more personal level. Because the type of trees in a woodland can tell you a lot about the sort of story of the woodland. So, it could help indicate whether it's ancient woodland. It could tell you about what sort of soil types underlying the sites are and that kind of thing. What ground flora, therefore, you're likely to sort of expect and indicate the condition of the woodland in terms of ecological health. So, if you've got lots of non-native tree species there that could tell you that the woodland's perhaps degraded and in need of restoration, that kind of thing. Adam: Okay, fantastic, and you're going to take me on a little journey and we're going to identify some trees. Now, I have to say first of all, about me personally, and I think others as well might find this whole thing rather daunting because there are probably thousands of tree types, and you think how on earth am I going to get to know any trees? Really as I'd have to go back to university really. Is it as daunting as it sort of first sounds? Sally: No, definitely not. There's only a handful really of really common species. So, for example, maybe sort of ten of the most common would be oak, ash, hawthorn, birch, beech, Scots pine, rowan, hazel, blackthorn and willow. And then you get to know those and then you sort of gradually pepper some more interesting species in between.  Adam: Right, so that's very manageable. Super! There are sort of 10 of some of the most popular, well-known, widely dispersed UK native trees, the list of which I've already forgotten. But if you know those ten you can sort of work your way around the woodland fairly well. Sally: Yeah. And it depends on where you are coz you won't necessarily see all of those even. Adam: No, okay, very good. Well, let's not where we are. This is clearly an apple tree because it's got nice… got a very good harvest of apples on it. If it didn't, how do you spot an apple tree? Sally: Okay, so yeah, so first of all it is important to note that this is an apple tree, it is a domesticated apple variety of some description, this one, and the reason why it's here at Londonthorpe, though it's not a wild tree, is to help with the sort of engagement with visitors.  So, I think the idea when this wood was planted back in the 90s, was for it to, be very much, to engage people. That people could have a snack as they went around and have that sort of engagement with nature. If you wanted to have a taste of one, although they are a bit higher up [laugh], you'd know that it tastes a lot different to the crab apple that we'll see later on, which is very much… Adam: The crab apples are tiny, aren't they?  Sally: mmmm. Adam: I didn't think they were edible?  Sally: Well, the wild ones are, yeah, I think that they're edible, they're just not very palatable…  Adam: Not very nice, okay.  Sally: So, our ancestors bred them to be different [laugh]. Adam: Okay, alright. So, but anything about the sort of branches or leaves one could look out for. Sally: So, yes, so. A lot of fruit trees are members of the Rosaceae family, so the Rose family. And quite a feature of those is that they tend to grow these sort of short woody spurs from the twig, which then have a spray of leaves all emerging from a kind of cluster. Adam: Right, right. Yep. Sally: Which is one characteristic of an apple tree. The leaves are simple leaves that are oval, and they have some tooth edges as well. So, they're generally kind of slightly glossy and darker on the top than they are on the bottom. Adam: Right. Sally: So, in the spring, obviously you wouldn't have the apples on there. Adam: No. Sally: You'd have the blossom which is a white, with a slight… Adam: It's beautiful isn't it, apple blossom, it's beautiful.  Sally: Yeah. A slight tinge of pink to the petals. Adam: Okay, well, wonderful. And [inaudible] to be honest, I never eat anything in the wild because I'm terrified of killing myself and I don't think I should. Because I'm with an expert, I feel much safer, so is it okay if I grab… Sally: You can grab… Adam: I mean neither of us are particularly tall, but there are a couple in about stretching height here, so hang on a second…  Sally: Yep, go for it. Adam: I'm getting stuck on this already. Sally: I have to say, I definitely agree that if you're not 100% confident, definitely don't eat anything. But this is definitely okay. This is definitely an apple tree. Adam: Oh ooo look I've got one, I've got one. Sally: [laugh] Go on. Adam: Okay. Sally: Not the biggest. [Laughter] Adam: It's not, it's, I haven't had breakfast. And I don't think lunch is on the menu, so this might be it, okay, hold on a second, you'll hear this. [Chomp] Sally: Fresh as anything! Adam: Mmmm [chomping] – I can tell you it's lovely. Mmmm okay that was very good, very good. Okay. So, that's our first tree, lead on and we shall find our second! Sally: Let's go this way So yeah, you're tasting the sweetness that our ancestors bred into it. [Chomping] Adam: Do you know what type of apple this is? Sally: [Laughing] I've no idea.  Adam: No idea.  Sally: No. [laugh] Adam: It's a tasty one that's all. Mmmm very nice! Sally: Okay, we've come to a… Adam: Well hold on hold on a second, I've gotta finish this mouthful. [Laughter] Sally: We'll see lots more, so carry on chewing. Adam: Okay, Let me just finish this before – I'll spit apple all over you otherwise. [Chomping] Sally: So, we're reaching another tree here, that's again one of the really common ones that you'll see in lots of woodlands across the UK. So, this is an ash tree. Adam: Okay. So first, well can you describe it for us? Sally: So, this one's a fairly young tree. It's only maybe seven centimetres in diameter on the trunk. It's got really quite pale bark, which I would say is quite characteristic of ash, a sort of ashen colour.  Adam: Also, as opposed to the apple tree, which is really broad, had lots of leaves. It was really sort of dense-like bush-like.  Sally: Yeah.  Adam: This one, you see the main trunk, which is very thin and only a few branches and a few leaves. It's much more minimalist. Sally: Yes. So, these, so, ash trees are one of the most common trees in this area that you find in hedgerows. When they're mature, they can be, you know, really have a good size trunk on them…  Adam: Right…  Sally: and a real spreading crown. But this one's young, it's not reached that size yet, but the main ID feature at this time of year I'd say is the leaf, which is very characteristic. So, experts describe it as a compound. They're a bit far away, but we can get the idea from here. So, it's a compound leaf because each of those leafstalks has pairs of leaves coming off it.  Adam: Right. One to the left, one to the right. Sally: So those, what look like small leaves, are actually leaflets and the whole thing is a leaf. So each thing is um, each whole leaf emerges from the stem and has a green leafstalk. The whole thing is shed in the autumn and then comes back. Adam: Right, we've gotta go back over this. So, what I think is a leaf, you're telling me is not a leaf, it's a leaflet. Leaflet, have I said that right?  Sally: A leaflet, yep. So, you've got pairs of leaflets. Adam: So actually, there's sort of one, two, three, four… four pairs and one at the end. So, there's eight, nine leaves, what I think of as leaves. You're saying technically that's one leaf actually.   Sally: Exactly. And that's because the whole thing emerges from one bud. And is shed as a whole thing in the autumn. Adam: I see. Now, the ash, obviously one hears a lot about this, ash dieback. So, this tree looks quite healthy though. Sally: Oooer Adam: No, well okay, it doesn't look healthy. Sally: No, if you look at the top you can see the leaves the left on it are only really in a sort of central area. All of these branches which are extending to the edge, to the extremity, of the tree are bare already. Adam: Yes, so it's not healthy. I'm a complete idiot. It doesn't look healthy at all. It looks very sick. Sally: Sadly, the fact that it has dieback is now one of the key, sort of, features to ID ash, which is very sad. [Adam: right] If you see a tree that looks like, you know even in the height of summer, that it's lost quite a lot of its leaves, quite often that will be an ash tree with ash dieback. [Break] Adam: So, you've stopped underneath, this tree, much darker bark. So, what is it? Sally: So, this is a wild cherry. Adam: Okay, so, no cherries on it. So, before you sort of explain the defining feature, can you just describe the tree generally? Sally: Yes. So, it's another member of the rose family. So, leaves are kind of similar to the apple in that their ovals and they sort of emerge in these sprays, but they're a lot more pointed. And the teeth around the edge, I would say, are a lot more defined. And this one's sort of a medium-aged tree, I would say – like many in Londonthorpe as they were planted in about the 90s, so. Um, the bark has these, sort of, horizontal lines across it which are very characteristic of cherry. And as you say, it's a dark colour. This one's not as red as they come – they sometimes look a bit redder than this.  Adam: Right. You can see, I think some of the branches have been cut off, haven't they? And there it looks red. Sally: Yeah, yes, you can see the sort of red tinge to the wood inside there. So, you mentioned it doesn't have any cherries on it – we're a bit late for cherries, ‘cause they're something that's in season in the midsummer. That time of year, and the birds absolutely love them, so they get hoovered up as soon as they're on the tree, basically as soon as they're ripe. And that's reflected in the name, the scientific name of the trees. Prunus – so that means they're part of the plum and cherry family – and then avium is the species name, obviously referring to birds there – so how much they love the cherries. Adam: So, so it's a good thing for the wildlife. Sally: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Adam: Very nice. And then, so the leaves now. So, I know that you were previously telling me what I thought was a leaf was a leaflet – these, each individual one here is a leaf? Sally: Yeah, these are simple leaves. So, yeah as you'd expect the stalk joins directly to the woody stem and the whole leaf beyond that is one single leaf.  Adam: So, the definition of a leaf is something that, sort of, sprouts from a bud? [Sally: Yes, yeah] So each leaf will come from its own individual bud on this cherry. Brilliant! Sally: Let's head on. [laugh] [Walking, crunching of twigs under foot]  Sally: We're coming up to the crab apple here. Adam: Oh, oh, ok. So, this is a tree loaded with fruit – these tiny, tiny, mini apples. So, this is, this is [Sally: this is a crab apple] a crab apple.  Sally: So, if you look at the leaves again, they're very similar to the apple tree that we saw before, not much difference in the leaf. Pale on the underside, and glossy on the top [Adam: right] and arising in these little sprigs, but the apples are tiny. Um, and if we try one [laughter] they're… I'll try one, I'll take one for the team.  Adam: yeah, you take one for the team [laughs]  Sally: and you'll tell by my reaction… Adam: Oh okay, go on then… [Laughter, inaudible]  Adam: It's a lifetime of going ‘never eat anything', well together. Sally: Together. Adam and Sally: Okay. One, two, three… [Crunch, chomping] Adam: Urgh, not keen on, I dunno its unusual.  Sally: It's the aftertaste.  Adam: It's unusual. It… hmmm.  Sally: It gets more sour, I think, the more you chew it.  Adam: It does. It does a bit.  Sally: Not as nice as the one that has been bred.  Adam: It's not as nice. It's a bit odd in a sense that no one ever sells crab apples. You know, I mean. Sally: Yeah. You can make this jelly.  Adam: crab apple jelly, I've heard of that.  Sally: Anything tastes nice when you bung a load of sugar on top.  Adam: Yes, that's true, that's true. [Laughter] Adam: [joking] You could just eat the leaves, take the leaves and chuck a load of sugar on, I don't know why. Now, I think I've had my fill… Sally: Strangely morish.  Adam: No, not for me. I'll stay with my apple. [Laughter] Sally: They've definitely got a bitter sour kick, haven't they?  Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sally: Not as sweet.  Adam: Is it okay if I just throw this into the verge for the animals?  Sally: There's lots of windfall ones down there anyway.  Adam: I can see. Yeah, you don't have a cup of tea to take away the taste, do you? [Laughter] No, no. So, there we are.  Sally: So, that was to demonstrate the difference between a domestic apple and the crab apple. Which of course, is one of the ancestors of the domestic apple. Adam: Is it? [Laugh] I've been offered a polo to take away some of the taste. Oh, go on, go on, I will have one. I said no, I will have one. That's very kind, thank you. [Unwrapping a polo, laughter] [Walking] Adam: Right, we've come up to a very different looking one, which has got very particular leaves and tiny little red berries. I know that you don't like to reveal the tree at the beginning because we love the drama of it! Go on then, you talk me through this tree.  Sally: Okay, so this one's hawthorn. [Adam: Ahh right.] A common component of hedgerows up and down the country. Also known as quickthorn, sometimes, because it does grow very quickly. This shows an example of how they can grow if they're not kept trim into a hedgerow. So yes, there's that shrubby growth habit, even though it's not being cut. And the leaves are very small. Yet another member of the rose family and the leaves are, we describe as lobed, so it has these, sort of, sticking out sections.  Adam: They're much smaller. How ignorant a statement is it that there's a similarity between this and an oak leaf?  Sally: Yeah, not too ignorant.  Adam: Not too ignorant.  Sally: Not too ignorant because they're both lobed, both lobed leaves, but the size is very different. Adam: This is much smaller. Sally: Um. So lovely autumn colour as you can see, they're going yellow in colour. So, if you're thinking about managing a hedgerow for wildlife. You want to make sure that the tree is allowed to produce its flowers and then later in the year produce berries. And hawthorn and another hedgerow species in the UK, like blackthorn, which we might see some later, they produce their flowers only on the previous year's growth of wood. Which means if they're flailed annually – every year that new bit of growth gets chopped back to where it was at the beginning of the year, and therefore it's never allowed to flower and therefore set berries. So, the pollinators suffer from that, and the birds suffer because they don't have the berries. The berries are a really important winter food. Adam: So, it's important actually, from a nature point of view, for this to be a bit untidy. If you keep it too manicured, it'll never flower, it will never have berries. Sally: Yeah, and you can. The advice is that hedgerows – if you cut them every three years, but you don't have to let them go out of control, you can cut one side one year, and then the top and then the next side, so that every year there's always some availability for wildlife. Adam: Okay that's a good idea. [Voices] Adam: I think there's a dog called Ian that's got lost [Laughter]. So, if you've just heard that? Come here, Ian. Either it's a wayward husband or a wayward dog [Laughter]. Either of which we're going to pass them shortly… Ian, Ian looks like a dog! What an unusual name for a dog… Hello Ian! [Laughter] No, Ian's not interested, he's off!  [Laughter, voices, walking] Adam: So, we've made another stop. So again, very different look. So, do you want to describe it before we get to what it is? Sally: Okay, yeah, this might be one. This is a very common one. I'd say this is in the top two, top three. Adam: It's so embarrassing, I don't even know what it is.  Sally: You haven't got a clue, no? Adam: I'm an idiot, so no… Sally: So, if I if I say it's silver does that give you an idea? Adam: Birch! Sally: It's a silver birch! Adam: Aww, yes, that helps me along, if only you were there during my O levels. [Laughter] Adam: So yes, so it's got a very, it's got this very slender, it's got one very small, sort of, main trunk, which is silver. It's got, are they called catskills?  Sally: Catkins!  Adam: Catkins! Sorry! Catkins, how would you describe these then? Sally: Yeah, I guess it's like a little sausage shape hanging down. The ones that we're looking at are from the previous year so they're very, sort of, dried up. Adam: And these are the seeds are they or… Sally: Yes, yes. So, they're the flowering part. In the spring they look, sort of, yellow and fresh. They release their pollen, so we've got a little gust of wind to demonstrate how the seeds disperse, and how the pollen is dispersed as well in this species. So, a wood that is dominated by a lot of young, densely populated birch trees - you can kind of get the idea that's probably a naturally regenerated woodland because it's a good pioneer at covering new ground. Adam: And again, does it fruit or anything? Is it good for wildlife if there's something for birds and wildlife to eat off this? Sally: It's a really popular one with blue tits because… not because of the fruit, but because it's really popular with insects. So, after oak, birch supports lots and lots of different insect species. Oak supports the most, and ash as well, and birch is definitely up there. Adam: But why? Why is it? Why is it so supportive if there…? I mean, if there's no fruit on the thing? Surely something like cherry or apple – that would support most because it's easy to eat? Sally: Yeah. Well, the insects are after the leaves and the sap and that sort of thing. So like aphids, caterpillars… [Adam: They like this.] So, for the birds that eat aphids, caterpillars – like blue tits – especially in the spring when they're feeding their chicks it's a really important species. Adam: Okay, onward. [Walking] Sally: Hello again, so you can't see a huge amount of acorns on this one. Adam: Oh well, you've given it away! You always like keeping us in suspense, but I know therefore we are looking at an oak. So, the oak leaf is, sort of, our national symbol. I mean it's a symbol of Woodland Trust anyway. [Sally: Exactly] You might as well describe them though, for those that don't know much about the oak.  Sally: So, in this part of the country, we're in the East Midlands, you're likely to see English oak, and that's characterised by a leaf, which goes all the way up to the woody stem. There isn't any exposed bare leafstalk in between. And on the acorns – the acorn comes with a stem. Which is, that is the peduncle. Hence peduncular oak. [Laughter] Adam: That just reminded me of my French and German lessons. I'm feeling a bit lost, but okay, but lots of other people won't be lost.  [Walking] Adam: So, we've come across a clump of trees that are very similar. Ah, they've all got little red berries on. An erm, I'm trying to see. Ah, lovely little leaves. Now! Hold on a second. Hold on a second here, see I am already learning. I would say this was ten leaves, but actually, this is one leaf, and these are leaflets, aren't they?  Sally: Indeed, yep, you got it!  Adam: I've jumped to the top of the class! Okay, so that's very good. So, there's a, there's a stem leading from the main woody, woody branch and on that has a little collection of little leaves, which are called leaflets. So what tree is this? Sally: So, as you really correctly described that it's very similar in leaf shape to the ash that we saw before. Which gives rise to one of the common names of this species, which is mountain ash, sometimes people describe it. But the most commonly used name is rowan. [Adam: Right] So, it's a small tree. As we looking around here, it's kind of, it's really standing out as part of the understory here, under these taller ash and birch trees, because they've all gone this really lovely orangey russet colour in their autumn glory. [Inaudible] Adam: Yes, they're turning quicker than the other trees, aren't they?  Sally: Mmm. And their really bright berries stand out as well in these lovely clusters of red… Adam: I've seen, I've seen rowans that looks a lot nicer. These look a bit bedraggled. Is that part of this particular tree or is that the nature of the rowan?  Sally: I think it's because of the situation they've grown in here. They're under quite a bit of shade under other trees. Adam: So, we've got these leaves, they have little red berries on them and the main trunk thin, and well here, it's sort of, a rusty green colour. Is that fairly typical? Sally: Mmm. Quite a pale, sort of, colour, and quite smooth. Erm but, they never grow into a big tree I would say, is one of the key features of them.  Adam: And er, good for nature? Sally: Yeah, so we can see all the berries here, loved by blackbirds. They are quite a common tree for people to plant in their garden coz they don't grow too big. So yeah, lovely for attracting the birds.  Adam: Very good. [Gap] OK, so we've come to another oak – very low. Now, this is interesting, isn't it? So, you can tell it's an oak – very big substantial leaves.  Sally: Mmm, it looks very healthy, doesn't it?  Adam: It does, except what's odd is that all the branches start really low down. [Sally: yeah] It feels like, I dunno, has man got involved here, so has it been cut back? This is odd! Sally: Yeah, well, it's a really interesting point that you make because it shows how the situation that tree is growing in really affects its growth habit. So, the oak that we saw before was growing in woodland in dense situation with other trees in. Adam: So, you have four, five foot at least of tree trunk before you got any branches?  Sally: Yep.  Adam: This branch starts about ten centimetres off the ground. Sally: Yeah. So, because that one that we saw before was growing in the woodlands. It's grown competing for light. So, it's put all its energy into growing upwards – tall and thin – which is good for timber. That's what a forester would appreciate in a tree.  Adam: This has grown out. Sally: Whereas this one, because it's in an open space, it's had space to spread its wings as it were, to spread its branches out and to really create this kind of bushy habit. And although this is, this one's quite young, this is almost, I would describe it as like a proto-ancient tree. It could, this one has the potential because it's grown in this open situation and with a real sort of broad base, stocky, stout growth habit, it has the potential to get a lot older.  Adam: This is gonna be very stable.  Sally: Yeah. Adam: It's also a fun tree, to go… I mean I could climb to the top of this tree, almost… just, because it's about five foot high. [Laughter] This is sort of fun. I could imagine kids hiding in there, really lovely.  So, I didn't realise, so, if you happen to be planting trees, you know, if you're lucky enough to have a garden where you can plant trees, and you wanted this sort of thing, you'd put it in by itself. And it'd grow nice and short, big round and lots of bushy sort of stuff, because it's not competing, it's putting its energy elsewhere. Sally: That's it. It's, sort of, characteristic of a type of habitat that we call wood pasture, which is often… you'll see at stately homes like in the nearby Belton estate, you get a scattered collection of usually oak trees in an open grazed landscape, and they're… usually, they're very old because they were planted or established a long time ago. And because they grow in the open area, they've withstood the test of time, so if they're tall and spindly they get blown over a lot more easily. But they last a lot longer when they're grown in the open.  Adam: Fantastic, okay, I'll… I'm just going to take a photo of this as well. [Gap] There we are. You've gotta stand there so I've got something to scale [laughter]. Otherwise, it could be thirty foot high! There we are, there we are, got it. [Laughter] [Pause] So, loads of trees, you've stopped by another one, which is very, I mean it's very low. I can't even see the trunk here because of the leaves. But it also stretches quite high, very bush-like, quite large leaves. I'll, I'll let you do the rest [laugh]. Sally: Mmm, do you have any clue on it? Adam: It's got these things that I'll mispronounce, I'm going to mispronounce again. Catkills?  Sally: Catkins.  Adam: Catkins. So, these are the seeds, but these are much prettier. Very small, delicate ones, umm err, there are individual quite large hand-shaped leaves. [Sally: They're broad.] Yes broad leaves.  Sally: Shall I put you out of your misery? Adam: Yeah, go on then… [laughter] Sally: It's hazel, this one [Adam: Right] So, you're very correct to observe that it's growing in, again, a shrublike habit. Adam: That's normal… that's not just because of the way this tree is?  Sally: Yeah, they have the habit of growing in that, kind of, [Adam: Very low down] shape. They're quite often coppiced and if you go to an ancient woodland the traditional management practice of managing a woodland would be coppicing the hazel.  Adam: Don't you get hazel that you make fences out of and stuff? Sally: Yes. Yeah, that's it! Adam: Is it very bendy, the wood?  Sally: Yes so, the young… the reason why they would coppice it is to get the regrowth that sprouts back. It's then in narrow, sort of, poles [Adam: Right] and has that flexible property. Um, yeah, so also good for hazelnuts – your Ferrero Rocher [laugh]. I don't know if we are allowed to advertise on this [laugh].  Adam: Yes, that's fine… The ambassador likes them, and other nut-based chocolates are available, I suppose we should say. Okay no hazelnuts at the moment, too early for that, or too late?  Sally: I would say that it already is probably, you have to look on the bottom of the branches… Adam: It's the right time but someone has nicked them all.  Sally: It's the right time but it could be the squirrels.  Adam: The squirrels have been here before us.  Sally: Yeah! Grey squirrels will take them even before they are ripe. They will take them when they are still green. So, it's quite often a bit of a challenge to actually find any nuts, but if you do, they're in a little cluster, usually of three and they have a kind of, little frilly outer case to them and then a hazelnut, well you know what a hazelnut looks like?  Adam: I do know what a hazelnut looks like! Well look, I think you promised me ten trees, but we're just not going to have time to do them all. So, we might have to do another podcast. We won't get another one in this year. We'll have to wait until the next leaf season.  Sally: We could do a winter, a spring… Adam: I'd have to say I'd love to do a winter one, but aren't you just looking at bare trunks? Sally: Winter is, yeah, next level up [laugh]. Adam: Could you identify the trees in winter?  Sally: Yeah, [inaudible] Adam: Ah you see now; you see you shouldn't have said that! [Laughter] You shouldn't have said it, because I will come back then, and we'll see how good you are at identifying completely bare trees. I'd think that'd be quite an interesting thing to do. Sally: I'd have to brush up. There are keys and guide that can help you do it. Adam: Well, and you say that, and of course the Woodland Trust has its own tree identifier app [Sally: it does] and there are others out there, there are books as well, you can use… as well as the blog that goes along with this – photos will be on there!  Sally: In fact, um, if you become a member of the Woodland Trust, you get a free little swatch book, which is like a pocket guide with the most common trees that you are likely to see on there, so you'll be always armed, always armed! Adam: Do you know I'm not sure I got that? Maybe, I don't know! An outrage! [Laughter] I probably got it and lost it is the truth! Probably got it and lost it. [Laughter] Anyway, well look…  Sally: Perhaps we'll try and find you a new one.  Adam: Okay, that will be very kind. Okay good, so look I have learned a properly enormous amount, I'm not just saying this, a properly enormous amount today. I'm gonna listen back to what you say and make some notes as well, because I don't know, I don't have a professional interest in this at all, but I think it's quite nice not to wander around ignorantly, and just go ‘oh that's a hazelnut, that's ash and there were lots of things you were saying about why that's good for birds'. And it's, I mean your background is science and you work for the Woodland Trust, but how difficult is it for people to get a working knowledge of this stuff?  Sally: I don't think it's too difficult to get to a point where you feel familiar with your local collection of trees that you see on a regular basis in your landscape and I think even if you take from this session that we've done – if you take a couple more that you knew before that's getting you towards know a higher proportion of them and then you'll know which ones you can rule out if you're looking at something different, erm so yeah I think it's very doable, and I agree that it makes it a lot more… your walks, they have an extra layer of meaning and you can read the landscape a bit more.  Adam: [inaudible] And of course, I mean if you are new to the Woodland Trust or not a member, new to woods, and you want to find a woodland near you, you can go to the Woodland Trust website, which is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, and you can find a wood. Thank you very much, it's been a fantastic, fantastic day out.  Sally: You're very welcome, Adam I'm pleased you've learned something.  Adam: Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners, and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating.  And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walks special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Charity Wakefield's passion for the natural world shone through when we caught up at her local green space. I met the actor, environmentalist and Woodland Trust ambassador at Peckham Rye Park to talk about trees, wildlife and acting. Charity explains how nature has made her happy since the tree-climbing, den-building days of her childhood. She is concerned that people have lost their connection with the environment, but is hopeful for the future and encourages us to recognise that we can all make a difference. She believes in ‘people power'. We also talk eco-friendly fashion, filming comedy-drama The Great and climbing a tree to learn her lines in Lewisham! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Charity Wakefield is an actor, environmentalist and Woodland Trust ambassador. She starred in BBC One's production of Rapunzel, Constance in The Three Musketeers at the Bristol Old Vic, and Elaine in the Graduate at the New Vic. She had a lead role as Marianne Dashwood in Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility and has been in Doctor Who, the Halcyon, Bounty Hunters, amongst other productions. And she's now starring in the TV series, The Great about Catherine the Great. Well, I met her at her local park to talk about acting and the importance of the natural world. Charity: So now we are at Peckham Ride Park, which has been my local park for most of my time in London. I now have a baby so there's lots of kinds of mother and baby groups around the area. I have lots of friends here still. Adam: Are you a country girl or did you grow up in the city, or? Charity: Erm, I, I never thought of myself as a country girl. I did grow up though in and around East Sussex. I used to live in a couple of different places down there. We moved a bit as a kid. Adam: Sorry, why don't you, you grew up in the country, why did you not think of yourself as a… Charity: I don't know Adam: You know you thought of yourself as you felt your inner urban woman early on? Charity: I just don't think I grew up with any sense of identity if I'm honest, because I also live a little bit in Spain when I was very small. And like I said we moved around quite a lot. So actually I'm an actress and I trained at drama school and going to drama school at the time of going to university for most people if you do that, that was the first time I really had this interest to work out where I was from, or you know you kind of try to identify yourself by telling each other, and also drama school, in particular, you're looking at different kind of life experiences and personality traits, because it's material for you, right? So, you start kind of realising ‘oh I that this background or that background'. Yeah, for me, being from the countryside just meant desperate driving as soon as I can. I could drive about a week after my birthday because I had secret driving lessons with friends and my dad and stuff. Yeah, I guess I have always loved the countryside and I sort of you know had friends you know the family were farmers and we used to go and make camps in the woods. Adam: Well, that's good, and talking of woods we seem to be, what's down there? That's a very wooded area, shall we go, you lead on, but shall we go down there? Or Charity: This is the Common, this is Peckham Ride Common, and erm I think it was, has been around for at least a couple of hundred years and it's a really big open space with some really huge trees in the middle. They're probably like, lots of them are London planes and oak trees, and I think this section we're about to walk into was actually sort of closed off at the beginning I think it was a big common and this was owned by an estate. A sort of family estate and then opened a bit later which is why as you can see it is much more formal Adam: I was going to say, so we are leaving a sort of really a very large green area with the Shard poking its head above the trees, so your urban environment, but walking into this much more formal sculptured… Charity: And actually you can walk the whole perimeter of this, and this is quite close to the road here but the other side is as you can see really big open and free, so it must have been quite weird at sort of the end of the 1800s, I suppose that kind of bridge between a really rich family that owned this huge part of the park in the middle, so this is yeah, now we are under these beautiful red-leaved trees, you probably know what that tree is? [Laugh] Adam: No, no, no, no, let's not embarrass each other by [Laugh] Charity: [Laugh] Okay no tree testing Adam: No tree testing [Laugh] Charity: Okay Adam: Well, this is, this is beautiful, so let's… there's a lovely, lovely bench with a dedication actually, some flowers connected to that. So why don't we have a sit down here and just have a chat? So, first of all, you mentioned you went to drama school, what drama school was it? Charity: I went to the Oxford School of Drama, which was the smallest, most obscure place I could have probably have found [Laugh] but it probably was the best place for me actually. It's funny, sometimes what's for you won't pass you as they say, erm a tiny drama school in the middle of the north of Oxfordshire. Acting is really hard and part of it is the marathon of it and the difficulties of getting jobs and everybody says this but failing continually and feeling like you haven't actually achieved things perfectly. In the theatre that means doing a show and there being some moments during the night where you think ‘uh that didn't work out right' and you have to be that kind of person that is interested in those kinds of faults and failures and wants to try different things and fix things and part of gaining that resilience is what I think drama school is all about. Adam: I mean apart from, I do want to talk to you more about your acting, but apart from that you do have what I see as quite a close connection to nature, reading a lot of your social media and learning about your activities, so tell me a bit about that, what is it? What is that connection and why do you feel it? Charity: I think growing up, albeit in a kind of little village or a town, but kind of in the countryside it was quite… it was a bit freer back then, I think it was different days, the early 80s. being allowed to sort of wander off, with friends and go into kind of woodlands and stuff. I think, I just feel very happy when I am in nature and I am interested in the differences, everything is growing and changing all the time. And it was interesting I went to LA once, and I thought this is so strange to me because the seasons aren't so apparent. Particularly when you live in the countryside your so kind of affected by those changes and erm I really love animals and I love knowing the circle of life, like where those animals came from, how they're are fed, what they do naturally, and then getting older you start to understand a bit more about the history and human history and how we have you know got to where we are today the kind of beginnings of farming and how society functions and unfortunately we are at a point now where we've outgrown ourselves, and how do we kind of pair that back? How do we get back? Adam: When you say we've outgrown ourselves what do you mean? Charity: I think humans have outgrown ourselves in a sense I think Adam: In what sense? Charity: In the sense that we've lost track I think of the essence of how you, I think yeah, we've lost track of how life is interconnected with nature. Because we're pushing technology further and further and some people are saying the answer is to eventually get into space rockets and go and start a new community on Mars and to me that's mad because I feel like we have everything that we need on this planet. And we just need to reconnect everything. Adam: Why do you think that disconnection has happened then Charity: Yeah well, I think it's a big question. Because I think it happens on so many levels. I think that there is a disconnect with people who are very very fortunate and have a hell of a lot of money, and in some ways don't notice the effect that their companies or their personal lives might be having on the environment because they are so loaded that they get given their food people and they probably never see plastic packaging to know that it exists because they are just delivered things Adam: Right Charity: and they don't really realise the impact that they're having, they're living kind of you know the high life Adam: Sure, do you think we're all living that sort of life? Charity: No, I don't Adam: Or it's just the 1%, or the quarter of the 1%? Charity: No, I don't, I think there are lots of people that are the absolute opposite. They haven't got the time, the money and the education to be able to do anything about it even if they did notice that there is an issue. Adam: And yet it is curious that isn't it, because and yet David Attenborough the national hero, his television programmes are all watched, and you know Charity: But they're not watched by everybody. Adam: They're not watched by everybody but there seems… I mean I get the feeling that you know there's this weird thing where everybody's talking about the environment and very concerned about it, even if perhaps if we're not changing our lifestyle, but my, my sort of view is that people do get it even if they're not changing their behaviour. You, you feel differently, I think. Charity: I think that there's, I think there's lots of people on those both extremes that don't get it at all and I also see lots and lots of people living on the poverty line, particularly where I live in the Borough of Lewisham, who are, and I know some people are working crazy hours and don't have time to think about it. About any kind of impact, and certainly don't have time to do complicated recycling or and they don't have the budget to be able to shop in a kind of, what we would probably on our middle-class wage perceive as a kind of eco conscious way. And because what's difficult is even if you do do that it's very hard to sort of balance what is the best consumer choice to make. As we all know, so we're in a difficult way, but what I do believe is that I believe in people power, and I as you say David Attenborough has made a huge impact and it is much more in the mainstream, hugely so in the mainstream in the last couple of year, and I do think its down to kind of lockdown and people staying at home and having the chance to stop and think and reconnect with their immediate environment but whether that's in a high-rise flat looking out listening to the lack of airplanes, being able to hear nature more, or somebody that's got, you know, fifty acres and has decided to buy a diamond Jubilee woodland for the Woodland Trust, you know, that there, I think we are kind of you united as we are the people who had a chance to stop and listen and look and then it's about people that are in positions of power and money to give us a direction to go in. to give us a positive idea Adam: So, apart from being intellectually being engaged with this, you're worried about it, you're clearly worried about it, you do a lot of things. Charity: mmm Adam: actually, so tell me about the lots of things you do Charity: err well I really love… I've always…So, fashion is a part of my job in the sense that I have to wear lots of different clothes, and um for my work Adam: well then you were recently in The Great Charity: That's right so I do a TV show, period TV show, and so I Adam: So, there's lots of costumes Charity: there's lots of costumes, I don't really have control over where those costumes are made and bought, but sometimes I do so, for example, if I'm producing a film or if I'm in a low-budget theatre production, I might provide my own clothes for that theatre production, and if producing then I am certainly in charge of deciding where we can get clothes, so for example, we go to charity shops and second-hand places because there is so much stuff in the world already. And I try to do that in my personal life. Adam: But do you have a label, a fashion label? Charity: No, nothing like that no Adam: But you, but you talk a lot about conscientious fashion on social media Charity: Yeh, I do because erm, …. Erm I am looking for the word, influencers! And stuff like that because I get approached for things like that and so I'm very conscious that If I am going to be in front of any kind of camera people are going to make a judgment or think that might be a good idea to wear, so I try to conscious about what I'm wearing if in the public in any way. And really that's just an extension of my real life, I've always shopped in charity shops, when I was growing up that was because we didn't have any money, so my clothes were given to me by other families, or when I first started to work, which was around fourteen, I worked in a strawberry farm – that was my first job! And my second job was in another strawberry farm, picking strawberries and my third job was the same strawberry farm but in the grocery shop. Adam: Okay, you got promoted! Charity: Promoted Adam: Promoted out of the fields! Charity: Absolutely, literally up the hill Adam: and Charity: I've become extremely aware of how difficult it is to manage woodland, and I didn't even know that as a concept, I just thought that big areas or parkland or woodland or farmland, I had not concept really of how that was looked after, and that's one thing that I think is I don't know, its both inspired me and made me realise what a huge challenge it is to be able to reforest large areas and the other fact of everything being so slow – trees reaching their maturity at such a slow rate – and that being a very difficult kind of challenge to sort of ask people to become involved with because I think when you're asking people to you know kind of sympathise with a charity or donate money to a charity in some ways its more difficult to say this is an extremely slow process but we need your help urgently… so it has been interesting to learn about that side of things. And I've also been deeply shocked and saddened about how many of our ancient woodlands and hedgerows and trees that are still being cut down in this country, partly for huge roadways but partly for new buildings and farmland and that does feel quite urgent to me. But yeah I've learnt a lot. I think one of my favourite things has been seeing the tree listening which I put on my Instagram if anyone wants to have a look Adam: So, tell me about tree listening. Charity: so, there's a way to hear the water being filtered up and down trees and it's the most beautiful sound and to me, it's a sound that I could go to sleep to. I keep thinking, I must try and find if there's a recording online that I can grab and put on my phone to listen to at night-time. And it gives you that sense of the tree being alive in the here and now. Trees grow so slowly it's sometimes quite difficult to think if the as, as kind of, living in the same time zone as us. So, hearing that, that's a very present sound really, I don't know, it makes you… it makes you want to hug the tree even more [laugh] Adam: Are you a bit of a tree hugger? Charity: Yeah, yeah, I am! Adam: Do people spot you in Peckham? Strange woman hugging trees? Charity: I do sometimes do that, the weird thing is, this was, I was in a different park in Lewisham, and I'd actually climbed the tree because I just felt like it and I also had some lines to learn. And it was quite an empty park and I thought well this is fine, and I was in a tree learning my lines and a lady came and she saw my bags on the floor and she was so freaked out she just looked up and saw me in this tree, and I have to say it was a weird sight. I have to really say Adam: [Laugh] Charity: This is so weird, I'm an actress and I don't know what I'm doing, sorry Yeah, I just, yeah, I love…I think it was also, when I was growing up, a bit of a place to kind of go and hide, you know if you're kind of stressed out or worried as a kid, and rather than run away, go and climb a tree and be up really high – it completely changes your perspective. Adam: Has having a child changed your perspective at all? Charity: I think it just strengthened my love of nature because it's the first thing that you teach kids about. All of the books that people give you are all about spotting different animals and trees, and the sunshine and the bees, everything he loves is related to outdoors, I mean that's, it's his first summer, he's fifteen months old and erm I've moved to a new house recently and been trying to work the garden a bit because it was very very overgrown. So, it's been my great pleasure to be outside and doing lots of digging and his first proper words has been digging, dig, dig, because he heard me say digging and he just started saying dig, dig, dig. [Laugh] Adam: Fantastic Charity: He said that before mummy or daddy. Adam: So, are you optimistic, I mean all those things you talked about erm are you optimistic that the world for your child will actually, things will get better during his early life? Or not? Charity: I feel burdened with the worry of it, and I try to not think about it, because the world is huge and there's only so much, I can do. I do feel optimistic in the human endeavour and human invention and ingenuity. But I am sad that it's going to get to a point of huge environmental catastrophe before real change is made by our governing bodies. But then if you look back at the pictures just pre-industrial revolution of these thousands and thousands of huge billowing chimney pots in London and you know, they're not there now, and the world is a lot greener than it was then, at least in cities. So, I kind of, yeah, I have hope otherwise you know… what's the point? Adam: I mean it's interesting isn't it, there's… I often think about how to shape the narrative here because I think often the narrative of ecology and the environment is one of ‘there's an impending disaster' you know ‘it's all terrible' and I'm not saying that's not true, but I think it's hard for people to engage with because it's like ‘well what, what can I do about that?' and I think it was, hopefully, I got this right, I think it was Barrack Obama who wrote a book on it called the Audacity of Hope and you talked about hope and it is this sort of weird thing, actually to be hopeful is an extraordinary thing, it is audacious to be hopeful and that might be, might be a better message actually, that there is this big challenge and actually the audacity of hope in what can, can we do, individually? Individuals can make a difference. You know yes joining the Trust and what have you, and doing other things, and planting a single tree Charity: I think you also have to look after yourself as a human in the world. Try to give yourself time and love and energy. Then you'll be in a really good spot to be able to help other things and other people and the environment. It's very difficult like I say if you're on the breadline and you're exhausted to actually have the headspace and the energy to do stuff. And you know, and so those people that are unable to do that we need to, I do believe, socially we need to enable people to be able to care for the environment. If you're in a position where you do have enough money, and you do have enough time, and you still feel worried, then there's tons you can do on a day-to-day level. And I actually think that action is much more infectious than talking. I know we're talking here today, but the best thing that I have probably ever done is about two or three years ago I just wrote on Twitter I'm giving up plastic for the month of January, this was before it was kind of fashionable to that and rather than saying everyone should do this, everyone should do that, I just said ‘this is what I'm doing'. I didn't even talk about it. I just said ‘I'm gonna do this' and so many of my friend's a couple of months later said ‘oo you said that and actually, I tried it as well', they didn't even talk to me about it they just kind of tried it. They started, whenever they came over, they said ‘we I didn't bring, I didn't buy any plastic because I knew you weren't interested' I thought wow! You just actually have to put a stick in the mud sometimes and say this is what I'm doing, and try to have the energy to stick to it, and of course, we have… we can't be perfect… the world is set up in a certain way at the moment as consumers, as everything is wrapped in plastic, it's very difficult to get around without, you know in lots of places, without a car because public transport has a lot to be desired and it's expensive, but if you can try to support things that are doing the right thing, that will slowly, slowly build, and if you can have joy in that, that builds as well. Adam: It is interesting to me, we tend to do what our friends do, or people we know do, so, and that's why a single person can make a difference isn't it because, a friend will copy you. And suddenly what you do isn't a single thing, it's a big thing. That's, that's amazing. So, look we're in this park which is very nice. I'm not sure I've met one leaf yet; we're meant to be walking around and I lazily dragged you to this chair! But, have you, I mean there's lots of Woodland Trust places outside of London, they are quite close but also quite far. Have you been to many? Are there any that stick in your mind? Charity: I've been to Hainault, and I've been to Langley Vale. What I would love to do is go to Scotland, I know there's lots of work happening there at the moment and I'd really like to visit, it's really interesting to see the difference between a very very ancient woodland and something that's quite newly developed, and I know that there are some places that the Woodland Trust are trying to connect two different forests, and I think, is it the pine martin (?) that they are trying to get to, sort of, repopulate? And it's very difficult to do that because they like travelling and so you have to have a long distance in between, you know, one dense forest and another dense forest for them to actually want to stick around. So, I would kinda like to see that in action. Adam: Well, the Langley Vale Forest, I have just been to, and it features in our previous podcast. All the commemoration of the First World War. Which I think was one of the most interesting and sort of, I don't know, shocking, I don't know, because there's a lot of… it commemorates really terrible events, but in a sort of, living memory, which I thought was really forceful. And that's I think one of the more interesting podcasts so if you listen to this one, but also that one, I also thought that one was great. So, it's amazing to sort of talk to you about this, but as you were saying, you are an exceptionally busy actor as well, so you're doing… is The Great still in production? Charity: It is, we're filming season three at the moment. Adam: Wow, so how many programmes in a season? Charity: so, there's ten episodes in each season, and the first two have come out via Hulu, and, in America and STARZPLAY, the first season was out on Channel 4 a couple of years ago and the second season is coming out this summer, on Channel 4, and we're filming season three. So, um, it's a lot of fun, it's very silly and it was lovely to be doing something, I was so lucky to be working during the last lockdown, albeit with really rigorous Covid protocols in place, we managed to get it done. Adam: Well fantastic, I will watch out for the next season! And all of your stuff on social media and everything. It's been a real pleasure talking to you Charity, thank you very much! Charity: Thanks. Well thanks to Charity for taking me on a tour of her local small, wooded area in South London, and do remember if you want to find a wood near you, well the Woodland Trust has a website to help. Just go to woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners, and volunteers and don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walks special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Langley Vale Wood is a really special place. Created as part of the Trust's First World War Centenary Woods project, it's a natural living legacy for the fallen that symbolises peace and hope. Memorials offer space to remember in an evocative and moving tribute. As well as these important reflections on the past, the site has a bright future. Previously an arable farm that became non-viable, nature is now thriving, with butterfly, bird and rare plant numbers all up. Join site manager Guy Kent and volunteer David Hatcher to explore the ‘Regiment of Trees', the ‘Witness' memorial and Jutland Wood. Discover too how the site is being transformed into a peaceful oasis for people and nature and why some of these fields are internationally important. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Hello! I've got to start by telling you this. I have driven to Langley Vale today and I've been driving through suburban London, really not very much aware of my surroundings, and you come up this hill and suddenly everything falls away and you burst out onto the top of the hill and it's all sky and Epsom Downs. And the racecourse is just ahead of you! And it dramatically changes. So, it's quite, it's quite an entrance into the Langley Vale forest area. I've come to meet, well, a couple of people here. I've drawn up next to a farm, I don't really know where they are, but it gives me a moment to tell you a little bit about the Langley Vale project which is amazing. It's a lovely thought behind it, because it is about honouring those who died in the First World War, and of course, there are many ways in which we honour and remember the people whose lives were changed forever during that global conflict. There are war memorials, headstones, poetry and paintings – and those man-made accolades – they capture all the names, the dates, the emotions and the places. And of course, they are vital in recording and recounting the difficult and very harrowing experiences from that conflict. But, what this venture, I think, wanted to achieve with its First World War Centenary Woods Project was a natural, living legacy for the fallen. Flourishing places that symbolise peace and hope, as well as remembering and marking the dreadful events of war, but doing that in the shape of nature and hope for the future. Both now and for many, many generations to come, providing havens for wildlife and for people – and I'm one of those people – and so it's a great project, it's in its very early stages, but it's a great opportunity, I think, to have a look around today. So, oh! There's two people wandering down the road there in shorts, I think they're hikers, I don't think they are who I am seeing. [Pause] Adam: So, Guy you're the site manager here, just tell me a little bit about the site. Guy: So, we are on the North Downs here in Surrey. It's a huge ridge of chalk that runs along southern England and down through Kent, it pops under the channel and pops up again in France. And this chalk ridge has got very special habitats on it in terms of woodland, chalk grassland, and we're very thrilled here that we've been able to buy, in 2014, a formerly intensively managed arable farm that was actually not very productive. The soils are very thin here on the hills the chalk with flints, so, pretty poor for growing crops, and we were very lucky to buy it as part of our First World War Centenary Woods project as England's Centenary Wood. Adam: So, tell me a bit about the Centenary Woods part of this. Guy: So, the idea of the project was to put a new woodland in each country of the United Kingdom, that being Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England. This is the England site, and it is the largest of the four sites. We've actually planted 170,000 trees here. We did go through a full Environmental Impact Assessment and this enabled us to find out where we could plant trees because there are some special habitats here, and there is a national character to the North Downs – national character being that much of the woodland is planted on the high ground and much of the lower land is actually open space, be that for arable use or pasture. Adam: This is a Centenary Wood, so, is this just an ordinary woodland planted in the name of those who died during the First World War? Guy: Yes. The difference is… one of the reasons this site was selected was because we do actually have history here from the First World War. We've got a number of memorials that I hope to show you today. One of which commemorates a day in January 1915. Lord Kitchener inspected 20,000 troops here that had gathered and recently joined, taking up the call to join his new army. So, there were many sorts of civilians here in civilian clothing. They got up at 4am in the morning, I'm told, to all assemble here for him arriving at 10am with his equivalent French minister, and they inspected the troops for a very short period of time because they had other troops to go and inspect nearby. But many of those 20,000 actually then ended up going over, obviously, over to the frontline and many were not to return. Adam: Shall we have a walk down? And what is there then to commemorate that? Are there, are these just trees planted in memory of that occasion, or have you got a sort of statue or something? Guy: Yeah, well, the Regiment of Trees as we're just about to see, as you go around the corner… An artist, we commissioned an artist called Patrick Walls who has actually created some statues for us replicating that event. So, we have men standing to attention carved out of sandstone… Adam: Wow, yes. Just turning around the corner here and you can see this, yes, individual soldiers standing proud of a field of, actually, white daisies just emerging made from that sandstone you say? Guy: Yes sandstone. Adam: Sandstone soldiers. We are just walking up to them now, but behind that is all, I mean, I'm assuming this is a statue, but a statue made of trees. Guy: Indeed, what you're looking at there Adam is a memorial that we've called Witness. It's actually created by an artist called John Merrill and it is made up of parts of oak trees that have been assembled and it's inspired by the World War One painter Paul Nash, who was a cubist artist, and a particular painting of his called ‘Trees on the Downs' and that's inspired by that. And we're very lucky to have included within the memorial part of an oak out of Wilfred Owen's garden. Adam: Wow! Guy: Yeah so it's constructed to look like trees that have been obliterated, effectively, on the frontline, very evocative. Adam: Yes, you get very evocative pictures of a single tree either, you know, scarred black or sometimes actually still alive in a field of chaos. Guy: That's right yeah. And that's kind of trying to illustrate that in our memorial here, and what you can do, the public can actually walk through it. We've got a couple of benches within it, actually, where people can sit and contemplate, and actually written on the inside of some of these beams that go up are actually excerpts from poems from First World War poets. Adam: So, this first statue we're actually standing by it's sort of transformed in the flow of the statue – so it comes out of the ground as a sort of textured rock and as you go up 5 foot, 6 foot the statue also transforms into a man, but this man is wearing a suit and flat cap, so is a civilian. Guy: Indeed, and that's kind of trying to illustrate the fact that many of them are just joined up and a number of them haven't even got their uniform yet. Adam: So, let's move on, ahead of us, there's this sort of city gent on the left but looks a bit grander, but on the right, there are obviously… these look like officers. Guy: Yeah, the best, how I can best describe this is, that we've actually got 12 statues here and they're actually sitting among standard trees that were planted. So, we've got birch here, we've got beech, we've got whitebeam and we've got maple. But, these statues, the twelve of them, are in four lines. The guys at the back have only just joined up and they haven't had their uniform yet. And what the artist wanted to illustrate was the fact that all classes joined up at the same time. So, we have a working-class guy with his flat cap down the end there, we have our middle-class guy here with his hat on, and then we have the upper classes as well – it's meant to illustrate that everybody was in it together and joined in. Adam: I thought this was an officer, but I can see from his insignia he's a corporal. Guy: Indeed, and if you look at the statues Adam, as we go nearer the front to where Kitchener would have inspected, they all put the guys at the front who had all their webbing, all their uniform already, and as we move back through the lines it was less and less uniform and equipment. Adam: It's very evocative, I have to say, it's much more emotional than I thought it would be. Shall we go over to the sculpture? Guy: Yes let's. Adam: So, this is called ‘Witness'. Guy: So, this is ‘Witness' yes, and this is… John Merrill created this, he's got a yard in Wales where he works wood of this size. As you can see, it's quite a structure. Adam: So, yes as you say this size… So, I'm very bad at judging, six… I am trying to think, how many six-foot men could you fit under here? Six, twelve, I dunno thirty foot high? Was that fair? Guy: I tend to work in metres, I don't know about you, but I'm going to say about six metres at its highest point. Adam: So, it's made of, sort of, coming into it… it's… actually, it's quite cathedral-like inside. Small but is that a fair description? Guy: Yeah, I think so. Adam: *inaudible* Now, every second tree here has a line of First World War poetry etched into it rather beautifully. Do you want to read just a couple out for us? Guy: Yes… so here we have one saying: “And lying in sheer I look round at the corpses of the larches. Whom they slew to make pit-props.” [editor: Afterwards by Margaret Postgate Cole]. “At evening the autumn woodlands ring with deadly weapons. Over the golden plains and lakes…” [editor: Grodek by Georg Trakl]. Adam: Amazing, it's an amazing place. There are a couple of benches here and these are… Guy: These are the names of the poets. So, we have W Owen here, we have E Thomas, J W Streets, M P Cole, amongst others. Adam: Very moving, very moving. Okay, well it's a big site isn't it, a big site. So, where are we going to go to next? Guy: Well, we can walk through now Adam, we can see a new community orchard that we planted in 2017. Adam: So, we've come into, well a big part of, well there are a huge number of trees here. So, is this the main planting area? Guy: Yes, this is the main planting area. There are approximately 40,000 trees in here. Adam: We're quite near a lot of urban areas, but here they've all disappeared, and well, the field goes down and dips up again. Is that all Woodland Trust forest? Guy: That's right, what you can see ahead of us there is actually the first planting that we did on this site in 2014, on that hillside beyond. Adam: 2014? So, eight, eight… Guy: Eight years old. Adam: [laughs] Thank you, yes mental maths took me a moment. So, the reason I was doing that, is that they look like proper trees for only eight years old. Guy: It just shows you that obviously, you think that when we're planting all these trees now – that none of us will perhaps be here long enough to enjoy them when they're mature trees, but I think you can see from just by looking over there that that woodland is eight years old and it's very much started to look like a woodland. Adam: Very much so, well, brilliant. Well, very aptly I can see, starting to see poppies emerging in the fields amongst the trees. They do have this sort of sense of gravestones, in a way, don't they? They're sort of standing there in regimented rows amongst the poppy fields. So, where to now? Guy: So, we'll go to Jutland Wood, which is our memorial to the Battle of Jutland. Adam: The famous sea battle Guy: Yes, it was the largest battle of the First World War which raged over two days, the 31st of May to the 1st of June 1916. We're going to meet our volunteer, lead volunteer, David Hatcher now, who's been working with us on the site for a number of years, and he's going to tell you about this memorial that we've got to the Battle of Jutland. Adam: Right, I mean, here it's, it's different because there are these rather nice, actually, sculpted wooden stands. What are these? Guy: Yeah, these are… actually commemorate… we've got what we call naval oaks. So, we've got a standard oak planted for each of the ships that were lost in that particular battle and we've also, between them, we've got these port holes that have been made by an artist called Andrew Lapthorn, and if I can describe those to you, they are sort of a nice piece, monolith of wood with a porthole in the middle of…, a glass porthole, that indicates how many lives were lost and it has the name of the ship. Adam: So, this is HMS Sparrowhawk where six lives were lost, 84 survivors, but HMS Fortune next door, 67 lives lost, only ten survivors, and it just goes on all the way through. Guy: As you walk through the feature Adam, the actual lives lost gets a bit more, bigger and bigger, and by the end it's… there were very few survivors on some of the ships that went down, and they are illustrated on these nice portholes that commemorate that. Adam: And this is all from the Battle of Jutland? Guy: Battle of Jutland this is yeah. Adam: And just at the end here HMS Queen Mary, 1,266 lives lost, only 20 survivors from 1913. Very, very difficult. [Walking] Guy: This memorial, actually illustrates…, is by a lady called Christine Charlesworth, and what we have here is a metal representation of a sailor from 1916 in his uniform. And that faces the woodland here, where you can see ancient semi natural woodland that would have been here in 1916. So, this sailor is looking to the past and our ancient woodland. If we look to the other side of the sailor, we have a sailor from 2016 in his uniform and he's looking in the opposite direction, and he's looking at our newly planted trees – looking to the future. Adam: Let's walk through here, and at the end of this rather… I mean it is very elegantly done but obviously sombre. But, at the end here we're going to meet David who's your lead volunteer. So, David, so you're the lead volunteer for this site? And, I know that's, must be quite a responsibility because this is quite a site! David: That's very flattering - I'm a lead volunteer - I have lots of brilliant colleagues. Adam: Really? So, how many of you are there here? David: About seven lead volunteers, there are about one hundred volunteers on the list. Adam: And what do you actually do here? David: Ah well it's a whole range of different things. As you know this was an intensively farmed arable site. And there were lots of things like old fences and other debris. It was also used as a shooting estate, so there were things left over from feeding pheasants and what have you. Adam: Right. David: A lot of rubbish that all had to be cleared because it's open access land from the Woodland Trust, and we don't want dogs running into barbed wire fences and things like that. Adam: And it's different from, well I think, almost any other wood. It has this reflection of World War One in it. What does that mean to you? David: Well, it actually means a lot to me personally, because I was the first chairman of the Veteran's Gateway. So, I had a connection with the military, and it was brilliant for me to be able to come and do something practical, rather than just sitting at a desk, to honour our veterans. Adam: And do you notice that people bring their families here who have had grandfathers or great grandfathers who died in World War One? David: Yes, they do and in particular we have a memorial trail in November, every year, and there's a wreath where you can pick up a little tag and write a name on it and pin it to this wreath, and that honours one of your relatives or a friend, or somebody like that, and families come, and children love writing the names of their grandpa on and sticking it to the wreath. Adam: And do you have a family connection here at all? David: My father actually served in the, sorry, actually my grandfather served at the Battle of Jutland. Adam: Wow and what did he do there? David: He was a chief petty officer on a battleship, and he survived I am happy to say, and perhaps I would never have been here had he not, and all of my family – my father, my mother, both my grandfathers were all in the military. Adam: And do you remember him talking to you about the Battle of Jutland? David: He didn't, but what he did have was, he had a ceremonial sword which I loved, I loved playing with his ceremonial sword. Adam: Gotcha. And you are still here to tell the tale! [Laughter] David: And so are all my relatives! [Laughter] Adam: Yes, please don't play with ceremonial swords! [Laughter] That's amazing. Of course, a lot of people don't talk about those times. David: No. Adam: Because it's too traumatic, you know… as we've seen how many people died here. David: Yes. Adam: Well look, it's a relatively new woodland and we're just amongst, here in this bit, which commemorates Jutland, the trees are really only, some of them, poking above their really protective tubes. But what sort of changes have you seen in the last seven, eight odd years or so since it's been planted? David: It's changed enormously. It's quite extraordinary to see how some trees have really come on very well indeed, but also a lot of wildflowers have been sown. We have to be very careful about which we sow and where because it's also a very valuable natural wildflower site, so we don't want them getting mixed up. Adam: So, what's your favourite part of the site then? David: Ah well my favourite part…, I'm an amateur naturalist, so there's the sort of dark and gloomy things that are very like ancient woodland. We call them ancient semi-natural woodland. So there is Great Hurst Wood which is one of the ancient woodlands. Adam: Here on this site? David: Yes, on this site. It's just over there, but we have another couple of areas that are really ancient semi-natural woodland, but actually, I love it all. There's something for everybody: there's the skylarks that we can hear at the moment; the arable fields with very rare plants in; the very rare fungi in the woods. Actually, that line of trees that you can see behind you is something called the Sheep Walk, and the Sheep Walk is so-called because they used to drive sheep from all the way from Kent to markets in the west of the county, and they've always had that shelterbelt there – it's very narrow – so they've always had it there to protect the sheep from the sun, or the weather, or whatever. And it's the most natural bit of ancient woodland that there is, even though it's so narrow and it's fascinating what you can find under there. Adam: And I saw you brought some binoculars with you today. So, I mean, what about sort of the birds and other animals that presumably have flourished since this was planted? David: It's getting a lot better. The Woodland Trust has a general no chemicals and fertiliser policy and so as the soil returns to its natural state then other things that were here before, sometimes resting in the soil, are beginning to come up. We, I think, we surveyed maybe 20 species of butterflies in the first year… there are now over… 32! And there are only 56 different species over the country, so we have a jolly good proportion! We have two Red List birds at least here – skylarks and lapwings nesting. It's all getting better; it's getting a lot better under new management. Adam: [chuckle] Fantastic! Well, it's a real, a real joy to be here today. Er so, we're here in the Jutland woodland. Where, where are we going to next do you think? Where's the best place…? David: We're going to have a look at one of the wonderful poppy fields. Adam: Right. David: Because the poppies come up just as they did in Flanders every summer and it's, it really is a sight to behold. Adam: And is this peak poppy season? David: It's just passed… Adam: Just passed. David: So, we hope they are still there and haven't been blown away. Adam: It would be typical if I have got here and all the poppies have gone. Forget it, alright, let's go up there. So, well this is quite something! So, we've turned into this other field, and it is a field, well never in my life have I seen so many poppies! Mainly red poppies, but then there are…, what are these amongst them? Guy: Yeah. So, what you can see is a number of species of poppies here. The main one you can see, it's the red Flanders poppy. Adam: And is this natural or planted because of the First World War reference? Guy: No, it's mostly…, we did supplement this with some…, we've actually planted some of these poppy seeds, but most of them are natural and it's a direct result of the fact that we continue to cultivate the land. One of the most important conservation features we have here on site is rare arable plants. Bizarrely, these plants were once called arable weeds, but when intensification of farming began in the mid-20th century, the timing of ploughing was changed, the introduction of herbicides, all these things meant that these so-called arable weeds actually became quite rare and they were just hanging on to the edges of fields. What we've been able to do here is to continue to cultivate the land sympathetically for these plants and we now have much, much better arable plant assemblages here. We have rare arable plants here now, that mean that some of these fields are of national importance and a couple of them are of international importance, but a by-product of cultivating the land every year for these is that we get displays of poppies like this every year. Adam: And when you cultivate, you're talking about cultivating the land, you're planting these poppies, or what does that mean? Guy: No, it's almost like replicating the fact…, it's as if we're going to plant a crop, so we actually plough the field and then we roll it as if we're going to prepare a crop. Adam: But you don't actually plant a crop. Guy: No, no exactly. And then we leave it fallow and then naturally these arable plants tend to actually populate these fields. Poppies are incredibly nectar-rich, they're actually quite short-lived… Some of you may know poppies that grow in your garden, and they could be out in bloom one day and completely blown off their petals the next day. They don't, like, last very long, but they do pack a powerful punch for nectar, so definitely invertebrates… Because we don't use chemicals here anymore which would have been used constantly on this farm – and what that means is that many of these arable plants, they require low fertility otherwise they get out-competed by all the things you'd expect like nettles, docks and thistles. So as the land improves so will hopefully arable plant assemblages making them even more impressive than they already are. Adam: But actually, as the, as the soil improves isn't that a problem for things like poppies ‘cause they'll get out-competed by other plants which thrive better? Guy: It's a fair point, but what is actually crucial – is that to actually increase biodiversity in these fields it actually requires low nutrients. In terms of a lot of these fields, as well, we have, from years of chemical application, we have a lot of potassium, we have a lot of magnesium in them, and they have a lot of phosphorus too now. Magnesium and potassium tend to leach out of the soil so they will improve naturally, phosphorus tends to bind the soil and sticks around for a long time. So, we're trying to get these chemicals down to acceptable levels to make them more attractive for rare plants and therefore increasing biodiversity. Adam: Well, it is, it is like a painting and I'm going to take a photo and put it on my Twitter feed. I just, [gasp] so if anyone wants to see that, head over there. But it is beautiful, properly beautiful. I mean, so we were walking by this extraordinary painting of a poppy field to our right. It's a site which has been revolutionised because it was all arable farming less than a decade ago. What has that done for biodiversity here? Guy: Well, as we can imagine these fields, it's quite difficult to imagine them as we walk through them now, but these would have all been bare fields that were basically in crop production and there's clearly been an explosion of invertebrate activity here. We've got increasing butterfly species every year, our bird numbers are starting to go up, but also importantly we've got certain areas where habitats are being allowed to develop. So, we have a former arable field here that is now developing, it has been planted up with hazel coppice in a system we call ‘coppice with standards', where we plant… Adam: Coppice with standards? Guy: Coppice with standards yeah. Adam: Oo, well very grand! Guy: It is! It's an old forestry practice where they planted lots of hazel trees that would have been worked and then periodically in amongst them, there will be oak trees that would be allowed to grow longer and then harvested at a later date. What this has meant is that we've got long grass now that is growing between these trees and that's making it much more attractive for small mammals on site. Adam: Like what? What sort of small mammals? Guy: Things like voles, wood mice, field voles, these sort of things that make sort of tracks and sort of tunnels within the grass. And what that has meant is, as we go up the food chain is, that that's become more attractive now on the site for raptors. A nice story from two years ago - we have a volunteer that works with us who is a BTO bird ringer, and he sort of approached us to say “you've got barn owls nearby and your site is starting to develop nicely. How do you fancy putting up some raptor boxes to see if we can attract them in?” So, which was great, and we managed…, the local bird club donated some barn owl boxes, we put the barn owl boxes up in this field we have just talked about – the hazel coppice field – and the expert said “well they probably won't nest in it this year. They'll come and have a look…” Anyway, we put it up…, two months later… it was being used and we were able to ring those three chicks that came from that and they've been breeding ever since. Adam: Wow, how amazing! Must be very heartening to be working on the site which is growing like that so quickly. Guy: It is, it's amazing and when you consider that we're within the M25, we're very close to London, but we've got this site that is growing and it's only going to get better as we manage it sympathetically for the wildlife that it hosts. Adam: We're just coming round the bend and back to almost where we started into this field of standing soldiers amongst the growing trees, and the cathedral-like tree sculpture there which will take us back to the beginning. So we've just done a little tour… Guy: Yeah, Adam: So, I dunno half an hour, 40 minutes or so. Presumably, we skirted the edges of this… Guy: You certainly have Adam! It's a fraction of the site. We are 640 acres in size and we're just at the top part of it. This area that we've largely walked around today is very much focused on World War One and our memorials, but much of the rest of the site is, actually, is quite a bit quieter, there are fewer people around and the focus is definitely more on wildlife. Adam: Yes, well, it has been an amazing trip, I have to say, I've been to lots of different Woodland Trust woods all the way up the country, to the far stretches of Scotland. I have to say I think this is my favourite. It's quite, quite a site! And the memorial is done really tastefully and fits in with the landscape. I think this is quite, quite a site for you to manage, it's quite a thing. Guy: It's incredible and we are just so proud of it and we just can't wait to be able to open our car park and invite people from further afield, and not just locals who get to enjoy it as is the case at the moment. Adam: Absolutely. Well look, thank you! It started this morning, bright sun, it looked like I shouldn't need to bring a coat then all of a sudden, I thought “Oh my goodness”, we're standing under a completely black cloud but it has not rained, it is not raining, we're in running distance of the car so… Guy: Somebody's looking down on us Adam, at least for a couple of hours. Adam: They are indeed, well thank you very much! Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers and don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Join us at Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Wood, Leics to discover a thriving 10-year-old wood, chat royal trees and celebrate the Platinum Jubilee. We meet with site manager David Logan to explore the site's connections with the royal family, its special art features and some of the wildlife, sights and sounds you might encounter on a visit.  Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk. Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, like all good podcasts let's start with a story and this one obviously is about a tree. It stands in a quiet part of central London called Lincoln's Inn Fields – the centre of the legal profession. It sits, well, just outside of a gated 11-acres of parkland in one of the otherwise busiest and noisiest parts of the country. It was planted in 1953 and since then the well-heeled men and women of the legal profession, who worked there, often sheltered under its branches, passed it by, both ignoring it and perhaps enjoying it. In the 70 years that tree has been growing, there have been many monumental events and world figures who have both entered and left the stage. When it was first planted, Winston Churchill was Prime Minister. Since then, entering and often leaving the limelight – Elvis Presley, Martin Luther King, Yuri Gagarin, The Beatles, Marilyn Monroe, John F Kennedy, video players were invented, personal computers and mobile phones were created, and there have been 15 prime ministers. But in all that time, as a living witness to that history of the new Elizabethan Age, there has been only one monarch – Queen Elizabeth II. No one has played such a long-lived part in the nation's history as the Queen. The tree that still stands by Lincoln's Inn Fields is one of literally millions that have been planted in the name of the Queen. Trees, of course, have an even longer perspective on time than Her Majesty but both stand as witnesses and part of history stretching back and reaching forward far beyond the timescales most of us live by. It's very fitting, therefore, that on this Platinum Jubilee the Woodland Trust has partnered with the Queen's Green Canopy Project to invite everyone across the UK to plant a network of trees, avenues, copse, and whole woodlands, in honour of the Queen's service and legacy From a single sapling in a garden to a whole wood, the aim is to create 70 Platinum Jubilee Woods of 70 acres each – every tree bringing benefits for people, wildlife and climate – now and for the future. And so, I took this opportunity to visit the Trust's Diamond Jubilee Wood in Leicestershire, where I met the man responsible for looking after the woodland, David Logan. David: So, this is Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Woods and it's a flagship site of a scheme that the Woodland Trust has to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. So, what we endeavoured to do, and we've successfully done. We created 75+ woods of 60 acres or more and they were the Queen's Diamond Jubilee Woods. And, this is the flagship one of those woods, making it the largest single-owned block of native broadleaf woodland in the National Forest area. Adam: What immediate, I mean, we've not really gone in yet, but what immediately surprises me is this is really quite, well, it's a very young wood. Yet, it already but quite mature I mean, were these species, was this all planted? David: You're looking at a hedgerow and beyond that are the trees at the same height as the hedgerow. So yeah no, it is to me, you know, a refute to people who say 'why bother planting woods because you never get to walk under the bows of the trees' but these, only ten years ago this was planted and when you get into the site, you're definitely in a wood now 10 years later. Adam: those trees are all on the quite tall… David: They must be 10-12 feet tall. Adam: Yeah, looks even taller to me but then I'm unsure. Okay, go on, lead on. Tell me a bit about then what this site sort of is, why it's special, you know, biologically special? David: Because of, it's big! You get that really wild feeling when you're here. So, you know, 267 hectares are completely devoted to nature. There's not, well, I don't think there's anywhere else particularly like that in this part of the country. And, so yeah, it does stand out. We get lots of different wildlife: lots of birds, lots of invertebrates, butterflies and a really good show of wildflowers as well. We will see some of them. Adam: And what was here before? Was it just an empty field? David: No. So, it was an open cast coal mine. So, the whole lot was owned by UK Coal and then the central part of it where the lake is was the largest hole in Europe! When it was done 750,000 tonnes of coal came out. Adam: Wow! So, I mean, there's no sign of that at all, because open cast mining can be a real scar on the land, can't it? I mean, it doesn't look pretty and then yet is there still a hole, was that all backfilled? David: That's all backfilled yeah so all of the substrate that wasn't coal will have been stored around the site and then all put back in the hole. Adam: How long have you been here then? David: So, I've been site manager for three years now, so.... Adam: Right. David: Yeah, seen it develop.  Adam: So, what sort of, I mean, three years is not a long time, especially in the life span of trees, but what sort of changes have you seen over that period? David: I think the biggest one recently is we took away all of the tree tubes and the fencing that the original kind of planting scheme relied on to protect it from deer and rabbits. Yeah, which has completely changed the way the site feels. So, no more sea of plastic tubes and no more fences to get in the way. So, you can get to walk where you like now, as well as the wildlife can get around the site a bit easier, and it really has changed the way it all feels Adam: In terms of the local community engagement and their use of this wood, what's that like? David: It's been great. Yeah, been great right from the outset, so, we had a lot of community involvement with the original planting and then again with extensions, voluntarily. Adam: And how well used is it by the locals then? David: Yeah, yeah, very well used, very rarely do you ever come to the car park and there's less than five cars in it. Adam: We're coming to, I can see... what's that building over there? That looks very pretty! David: So, that is what we call the welcome barn. So, I've got two buildings I've got on this site. I've got the welcome barn and I've got bird hide as well. Adam: Wow! So, what happens? Is there someone with tea and crumpets in the welcome barn for us? David: Unfortunately not no, but there are some interpretation panels that tell you the story of the site and a nice mosaic that was made by the volunteers as well, at the beginning of the site. And then a little compost toilet round the back! Adam: Laughs Okay that's good, good to know, good to know! And tell me about the bird hide then. David: So, the bird hide is yet another lovely building overlooking a lake. So, the lake was kind of formed by the sinking of the coal mine and the soil around it, and yeah, so just a nice bird hide, we'll go and look at it. Adam: What sort of birds do you get? David: The most exciting bird that we've had here is a hen harrier.  Adam: Right! Wow! And look, and this welcome barn, this also seems to be unusual for a Woodland Trust site? You don't normally see these things. David: Don't normally get a building no, I'm lucky to have two! Adam: And look at... really, really lovely sort of mosaic on the floor – Woodland Trust mosaic which sort of looks quite 1950s like... Do you know how long this…? This can't be that...? David: No no, that was built when the barn was built and the site was created in 2012 and it's meant to, kind of, reflect the Roman history of the site. So, we've got a Roman road that we just crossed over there, and then we've got two areas of our underlining archaeology which we know are Roman on the site. And so, we know there's certainly a lot of Roman activity, hence a Romanesque kind of mosaic. Adam: So, just explain a bit about where we are. David: So, these are called the groves – The Royal Groves – as part of Royal Groves Walk, and as part of the creation of the site. There was a royal Grove created for each year of the Queen's reign, so, they're in a series of circles and each one has a post and people can sponsor the grove and the post and then they get their little plaque added to the grove post for their year. I believe that certain years become more popular than others for various reasons and, but yeah, you'll see all these names. My favourite one, I think, is just this one. This grove is dedicated to the dahlia. Adam: That's fantastic laugh dahlia appreciation society sponsors. So, tell me a bit about the trees we're seeing here, there's clearly a whole mixture. David: Yes. So, they're all native broadleaf trees. We have got birch and oak going round. There is no ash in this part of the wood because ash dieback was kind of discovered just as the planting was going ahead and so we're lucky. There is a compartment in the north which got ash put into it. You might see the occasional ash tree that's self-set. So, we've got a Jubilee Grove Trail going on at the weekend for the... to celebrate the Platinum Jubilee that's coming up, encouraging people to, kind of, wander around the trails, and we're going to have these tree rings, sections of a tree... one per decade of the Queen's reign and with various large events that happen within that decade there will be a tree ring. Adam: Will that be permanent? David: No, it'll just be for the month of June and there will be a large wicker crown somewhere onsite as well. Adam: That's all happening next weekend? David: Well, late this week, next weekend. Adam: You've got a lot of work to do. I'm amazed you've got the time spare to wander around with me. David: Yeah well. Yeah, yeah there's always... it's always a rare commodity time I'm afraid Adam. Adam: Now you didn't design this here? You're a new boy! David: I am a new boy here! Adam: So, who actually designed it? David: So, it was a lady called Kerrie who is here, here now. She knows lots more about the groves than me as the designer and helped put it all in. Adam: Brilliant, hi Kerrie! Kerrie: Hi Adam. I think I don't think I want to say that I designed the wood but... Adam: I was building you up! Kerrie: You were, thank you, but the layout of the groves and... I was certainly involved in the design of the concept and then how we spoke to individuals about whether they would like to be involved in this. So, it was an opportunity for families to dedicate their own acre of woodland and help us develop this wood, as well as being part of a feature that enables you to walk through the Queen's reign. Kind of, physically walk through every year of the Queen's reign, so it's really special. Adam: Which is amazing, isn't it?  Kerrie: Yes, it is.  Adam: Tell me a bit about this royal connection because this wasn't, sort of, just a random, sort of, marketing idea. There's a really good basis for this royal connection isn't there? Kerrie: Absolutely, yeah so, at the Woodland Trust in 2011 we started a project to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee – so, sixty years of the Queen's reign – and we wanted to enable people across the country to plant trees and create woodland. We did that in a number of ways. So, we had this aspiration to create sixty Diamond Woods each of 60-acres in size, which is a big, really big commitment! And we also encourage people to create Jubilee Woods which were much smaller copses of trees in community spaces. And we distributed trees to schools and communities all across the country. Actually, it was hugely successful so the wood we are here at today is the Woodland Trust's flagship Diamond Wood. And then we had landowners and organisations and local authorities who also wanted to be involved. We needed to create 60-acre woods, we didn't know if we'd get to sixty actually inaudible we did get to sixty, we surpassed that, we had seventy-five woods at that scale created! Adam: So, seventy-five 60-acre wood Kerrie: Plus woods yeah, amazing, so, it's the first sixty of the Diamond Woods and then we have fifteen woods that we call the Princess Woods. Adam: Amazing, and so this was to commemorate that reign, and this is a lovely theme though! You can wander through the years of the Queen's reign. But the royal connection to woods is long and deep, isn't it? Kerrie: It is yeah. So, we were really fortunate that Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal was patron of that project. But there's a long and well-established connection between the royal family and tree planting, and as part of the project that we did we wanted to map all the woods that were created, and the trees that were planted. So, we copied... Adam: So, for the, for the queen? Kerrie: For the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. So actually, we took inspiration and sort of copied the Royal Record that had been done previously to mark a coronation. So, we actually have physically created and produced, published a Royal Record which is a huge red tome and that charts where all those trees are. And this is something that had already been done before the Queen's father. It's actually very heavy and so we have a copy at our office in Grantham, there is a copy in the British Library, and we gave a copy both to the Princess Royal and to the Queen.  Adam: There are lots of royal connections to trees and tree planting even beyond Queen Elizabeth. So, tell me a bit about that. Kerrie: That's right, yes. So, in the 1660s Charles II commissioned several avenues of sweet chestnut and elm in Greenwich Park and in 1651 he hid from pursuers inside an ancient oak during the English Civil War. and I think that's one of the reasons actually that you see so many pubs called the Royal Oak. Adam: Right okay because he hid in one? Kerrie: He hid in one yeah. Adam: Now you came... when did you see the hole in the ground? This was an open cast mine? Kerrie: Yes. Adam: You saw that? Kerrie: Yes, before any trees were here. So, I can't believe it's been several years since I've been here today, and it is now it's a wood! Adam: Yeah, there is no sign of that is there? Kerrie: No absolutely not, a complete transformation. Adam: It is amazing, isn't it? How quickly really that the natural world can recover. I mean, it needs a bit of help obviously and certainly in this circumstance. But no sign of what must have been really quite horrific bit of landscaping. Kerrie: Yeah. I think given how stark it felt at the beginning and when we first saw all trees grow in the ground here. It is genuinely remarkable for the transformation in a ten-year period of time! You can hear the birds, the trees are overhead, you know, we've seen butterflies, caterpillars... It really feels like nature has reclaimed this space it's really really exciting Adam: And when you start, I mean, look it's already done! It's a success! It looks fantastic, but when you started was this always a ‘this is gonna work' or at that stage did you think ‘this looks horrible, this might be a disaster, no one might come, no one might get on board with this project'? Kerrie: Well. I think we all had the vision, we all had hope. There are colleagues of mine that have been working at the Trust for longer than me who knew how this would look. I just didn't know that. This is one of the first projects I worked on so, to see it within ten years, the change that's the thing that I find you know really amazing! I thought I would have to wait much longer, and I'd be coming back with grandchildren to say look at this, but actually, here we are within a decade and it is transformed. Adam: Brilliant! Alright, well let's move on, let's find David again. Kerrie: Well, David on a previous visit has actually shown the Princess Royal around this wood. So, in terms of royal connections David has been a royal tour guide. Adam: Okay, so we have a living royal connection here? Kerrie: We do. Adam: Look here's a little bench, I might just sit here for a while. Brilliant, ah there's a dedication, what does it say? 'In honour of Sally Whittaker who believed in the beauty of wildlife and protecting it'. I have to say I always do like stopping at a bench and reading those dedications. Brief pause So, David, I'm not the only super important person you've taken around this woodland, am I? David: You're not the only super important person maybe, you are charming Adam! Adam: Ahhh thank you that's very sweet, very sweet laughs come on tell me about the even more important people you've taken around! David: So, yeah well, the most important person I guess would be Princess Anne, the Princess Royal, alongside Darren [Moorcroft] the CEO of the Woodland Trust. So, I was pretty nervous that morning, to be honest. The CEO, I'd never met him before and obviously a member of the royal family! But yeah no, I remember being nervous at the beginning, and then by the end of the day when I finally said goodbye to Princess Anne I was longing to spend a bit more time with her. She is incredibly charming, yes. Adam: Yeah. So, we come to a waymark, which? It's left, is it? David: Follow the blue and white arrows. Adam: Right so, if there are... there two different paths? Does blue and white mean anything or? David: Yeah. So, there's three waymarked trails around the site and we just happen to be happening on a little bit that's on two of those. So, there's the woodland walk which is the longest walk around the whole of the wood, and then there's the Royal Groves Walk. And then there's the lake walk as well Adam: Right so, explain a bit about where we're heading off to. You're taking me into the centre of the woods, it feels like? David: Yeah. So, we're continuing along the groves and eventually, we will get to a broad open vista, and you will be able to see most of the features of the site. Adam: So, we are already walking out to what looks like a less wooded area. David: Yes, we're kind of skirting the western edge of the site now and then... Adam: It's a big site, isn't it? how long will it take to walk over the whole thing do you think? How long are these paths? David: Like a good tour of every feature of the site here's looking at half a day really, probably, and that's with a bit of pace on. Adam: I've only got short legs laugh so I'd add a few hours. So, there's another one of these posts. Shall we just have a look? 1985 were through to, anyway so... David: Green woodpecker there, did you hear? Adam: Oh no wow! I missed out, I've been looking out for posts, I missed the green woodpecker. So, we're just coming out of a rather wooded area into – it suddenly opens up very dramatically – and look at that it's a very different view! So I can see a lovely wildflower meadow almost and then at the bottom a huge lake! A huge lake. So, this is where the old open cast mining just sunk down a bit and has since got naturally filled? David: Yeah. So, what you're looking at now is the epicentre of the open cast coal mine and obviously the wider landscape around it. So, yeah that's our lake and the end of the groves walk. So, you can just see the final three or four grove posts just heading off down the hill. And then this was an open area left to retain the view and then on the other side of the lake we've got a 5-hectare exclusion zone so there's no paths in that area. Just, no paths in the area, just to allow nature to completely have five hectares for resting birds et cetera. Adam: Let's go down because I think... David: We've got something else to show you. Adam: Sorry go on, rushing ahead, what is it? David: So, we got this piece of land sculpture that was created by an artist called Rosie Levitan and there are calls every now and again. We get somebody asking if we can put some kind of panel up to explain what it's all about, but the artist herself expressly asked that not to happen. So, I think she is more inclined to allow you to kind of figure it out for yourself or come to your own conclusions as to what it's all about. So, it was created with money from the Arts Council at the inception of the site. So, no money that could have gone into conservation went into creating this piece of art. But yeah, I'll leave you to... Adam: Sorry, this is it? This is it? David: This is it; I'll leave you to come to your own conclusions. Adam: So, when you said a piece of art, I thought you meant like a large statue of something out of wood, but actually, this is a sort of an earth tiered... almost like amphitheatre going downwards counts I think 5 tiers there. David: It's in a spiral so you can walk around the outside which takes a lot longer than you think! Adam: Laughs Yeah right I think I might take the direct route down, but to be honest, it seems like a brilliant place to put on a play! David: Yes! That's my thoughts as well, yeah I'd love to get a play here. Adam: Yeah! Have you ever gone down then done a soliloquy? David: Errr not, well, do you want me to? Adam: Yes, if you if you've got a piece ready laughing David: Unfortunately, I haven't. I mean I could maybe do a jaunty jig or something like that? Adam: Yes, well look, we're recording. David: Yes, well, no let's not! Adam: That's a shame laughing I think you probably come down when there are not many people around. So, if you ever do see a man in Woodland Trust clothing doing a jaunty jig at the bottom of this amphitheatre-like piece of art you know who it is and that he just wouldn't do it for us laughter very nice, very nice. Adam: So, you're gonna take me down to the lake now? David: Yeah, take you down to the lake. Adam: And it's there that we are going to meet one of your volunteers, is that right? David: That is right yep, a chap called Gerald. So, he's been volunteering with us on the site since the site was created and in various different roles Adam: And I've just gotta say it is beautiful walking down here because there are just huge numbers of buttercups aren't there? David: Yes, it is stunning, isn't it? Adam: It is stunning, it's like a sort of it's like a painting! It's like a painting, brilliant! David: This is our pond dipping platform. Adam: There's a cuckoo Bird song Adam: That's very good, so Gerald, sorry, we're distracting you. I can see you distracted by some swans coming over with their little babies. They're coming over to investigate you think? Gerald: I think they are yes! It's good to see it, I, they must be relatively young because a few weeks ago they were they weren't about so it's... Adam: Right. We'll let these swans investigate us as I chat to you so tell me. I'm told you do tonnes on this site. What was the local community's feeling when the trust took over this site and sort of explained what it wanted to do? Gerald: Generally, really good because you can imagine if you've got an open cast colliery on your doorstep a wood is a big improvement! Adam: Well, that's what I was going to say, because sometimes there is, sort of you know, some resistance or sort of misunderstanding about what is trying to happen. But here you go ‘surely this is going to be better for everybody'? Gerald: Yeah, so I think, overall, the mood was very good. There will be people who say yes but why don't you do this because this is better? We had some debates about whether we could put in some fruit trees, for example, and because we're in a sort of prime growing area in Leicestershire here. And there were debates about whether that was acceptable, whether they were native trees or not. But it was all good healthy discussion and it's interesting to see how the trees have grown and they have particularly grown well on this area here which was the open-cast. When you think – this all was disturbed ground that was put back – the trees have grown probably better here than they have in parts of what was the agricultural land. Adam: I have to stop because the swans have properly come up to us now. There they are! How involved do you get now, now it's well established what do you actually end doing? Do you come down here most weeks or? Gerald: It's a couple of times a month at least now. During the pandemic, it was sort of very limited of course, and well before that time, I used to do a monthly walk which was really... Adam: This is your guided monthly walk? Gerald: Yes guided, with a series of friends and colleagues. Adam: Do you have a favourite part of the wood? Gerald: Actually, probably near the bird hide just along from there. Adam: Why? Gerald: I don't know really. It's gotta mix, you got a mix with the water, you got the mix of the trees, a bit of the open meadowland here, and yes, the bird hide does add a bit of character to the place. I think we're lucky to have that there. Adam: I think David's waiting for me there. Shall we go over and have a chat with him? We've paused for a moment because we're just passing a black Poplar and a little plaque next to it saying it was planted by BBC Breakfast on 1 June 2012 in celebration of Her Majesty the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. Gerald: Yes, we have the two black poplars here. Adam: There's another one here. Was that planted by ITV for balance? Laughter Gerald: Oh no much more prestigious. Adam: Oh sorry, yes it was planted by Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal who is patron of the Jubilee Wood Project on the 1 of June 2012. And doing very nicely! Gerald: Yes, they are indeed! They've both grown quite a bit in the last year, I think. Adam: Very nice! So, what's the way to the bird hide? Is it round here? Gerald: Just go up to post on turn left. It's at the moment, hidden by a willow screen. It's a piece of willow art, although it's not particularly obvious Adam: You can see they've been bent over at the bottom haven't they to form a sort of willow fence. Gerald: If you were to look down on it from a drone it will be an outline of a skylark. It's a little bit overgrown and that's on our task list for next winter to prune that and try and weave in the lower bit. So, it's going to task our skills! Laughter Adam: We're going into the bird hunt now. We're in the bird hide. David, ironically having seen lots of birds the moment I get in here actually I can't – oh I think there is one over there – but do people, is this a good actual spot to be watching birds from? David: Yeah, yeah because it gives you that cover so the birds don't necessarily know you're here. It is quite a light bird hide though but it was created in conjunction with the Leicestershire Wildlife Trust, so they must have built a few bird hides, but yes. Adam: To be honest it's lovely weather today. But if it was raining a little bit this would be a fantastic place just to sit down for a while, wouldn't it? David: Yes, it would yeah. Just get out of the rain, I've done that a couple of times! Adam: Right, fantastic, alright well where are we going to next? David: So, there's just one last thing I would like to show you onsite which is just a short walk back up the hill. Adam: Okay, what is that? David: It is called the photographic plinth and so it's basically some encouragement for people to keep on visiting the site year after year. So, what we've got is we've got a plinth that you put your camera on and then a brick area that you supposedly stand on so you can get exactly the same photograph every year. You can visit the site and you can watch your family grow as the wood grows around you Adam: What a brilliant idea! What a brilliant idea. Okay, okay so David so there is a plinth. David: Yes, this is our photographic plinth. What it needs is updating, because obviously when this was made smartphones didn't exist and now you wouldn't really get a smartphone balanced on that! Adam: Yes, that's true David: It needs a little block bit putting on so you can rest a phone on it. Adam: So, it's not only the trees which have changed, it's the technology that it's referring to. I'll tell you what, I mean, obviously I'm going to have my photo taken aren't I? Can I give you my, I haven't got a camera, I do have my smartphone, so I'll go stand... I'll go stand here, and in a couple of years I'll come back and I'll have even less hair. Hold on a second – do I look better with my hat off or on? Pause Neither. I feel that was an undiplomatic pause I felt. David: What I was thinking is that I need to see both to answer correctly, that's why I was thinking. So, I'm gonna take it from the correct position. Click There you go Adam: I'm not confident that looked any good from the look on your face. I'm not going to look at it now I'll check it when I'm home. There is clearly a lot more to it than I've managed to explore today but what a wonderful treat, on a lovely, beautiful Monday, in this very special royal year! To come and celebrate that here! thank you very much David. David: that's quite alright Adam it's been a pleasure Footsteps Adam: Well, that was a great walk and thanks of course to everyone who arranged that. It's a fantastic place to visit especially in this Royal Jubilee year. If you know about these things, you can find it at grid reference SK 390132. The nearest train stations are Burton, Tamworth and Loughborough, although they're all a bit of a car journey, I have gotta say, from each of those stations. But if you're looking for a woodland perhaps nearer to you do have a look at the Woodland Trust website which has a special site to find a wood near you it is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. I do recommend you do that until next time happy wandering. Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. Why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast. Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special, or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Lying next to the River Avon just inside the Cotswolds, Avoncliff Wood is no ordinary wood. The site hosts one of the biggest trials in the UK to find biodegradable alternatives to plastic tree guards. As if that wasn't enough, it's also a living laboratory, revealing how ash dieback will really affect nature. Site manager Joe gives us a special behind the scenes tour to learn more. We also meet volunteer wardens Kay and James, and catch up with TV presenter Alice Beer who lives nearby. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, I've changed trains at Bath Spa for what appears to be a very small train which is taking me to Avoncliffe. Now, in fact, the train conductor has told me the platform is so short when I get there only one door is going to open. He came through asking “Is anybody getting off?” and I'm the only one, the only one. Well, I have to tell you, the station here is straight out of a 1930s style Agatha Christie film, that's what it screams to me. Beautiful signs, beautiful flowers, the River Avon just almost next door to the station, a great looking pub and down at the end of the platform one single man who I'm assuming is Joe Middleton with the Woodland Trust, site manager here and the guy who's going to show me around. Joe: So, welcome to Avoncliffe Wood in the Avon Valley just in between Bath and Bradford-on-Avon. We just crossed over the famous Avoncliffe Aqueduct and just followed the River Avon until we hit even Avoncliffe Wood which carpets the side of the valley across this area of the Cotswolds AONB, Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, right at the southern end of the Cotswold AONB. Adam: There's very little woodlands right here, so what's going on in this first field? Joe: So, we're just at the edge of our woodland creation. So we bought 20 hectares, about 40 football pitches, of ancient woodland – untouched for generations – and to buffer that, to try and expand carbon storage and fight climate change and the ecological decline we're seeing we actually bought another 10 hectares, another 20 football pitches, worth of agricultural fields essentially and meadows which were very intensively grazed and we've planted that up with over 5,000 trees to try and get the next generation of trees in here. Adam: Wow, okay so shall we go through, have a look? Thank you. Joe: So just next to us as you can hear the birds singing away, there are blackbirds, robins and blackcaps in there. There's one acre, here, just on the right-hand side, which was actually planted up 25 years ago by a neighbour. So, the very small one acre square now 25 years later is teeming with you know 30-40 foot birch trees, willows, hazels and hawthorns, full of cherry blossom and hawthorn blossom, and birds nesting, tweeting, and insects buzzing all around us! It's quite rare these days! So hopefully we think everything we planted up here, all 5,000 trees would look like that in 25 years. A proper young woodland. Adam: And you've clearly, I mean, they're not uniformly planted so there's a big patch in the middle which you've got nothing and they seem to be done in clumps, so why have you done it like that? Joe: Do you want to know what that patch in the middle is? That's a sledging lane. Right well so we carried out community consultation when we first bought the woodland. We asked all the locals, we said look there's this really lovely kind of big expanse of fields all around the wood, we want to buy it, we want it to, you know, fight climate change, we want to try and do our bit for wildlife. And they said whatever you do leave us a sledging lane because when it snows here this hill is perfect for tobogganing down. Adam: laughs you see I thought it was going to be for some really technical reason! You need to do that for a very specific reason, I didn't realise it was gonna be sledges. Joe: There are also wide rides, you know, big areas that people can walk through. We've created a really good path network in here as well in some areas and natural regeneration so there are areas unplanted and there are areas purely for tobogganing fun in the middle of snowy winters. Adam: And why not? It's very important. Now, the thing that we can see in this immediate field is a lot of tree guards and well I'm also standing by a little sign which says biodegradable tree shelter. I always call them tree guards, but this was called tree shelter. Now that is not by coincidence. The tree guards are a huge issue, aren't they? Joe: Yeah, I mean with governments pledging to plant millions if not globally billions of trees to fight climate, you know hold onto carbon, stop floods, we have to be able to do it without using oil-based plastics. For the last 35 years people have just, every tree that's gone in you know, not every one, but most trees that've gone in have been planted with a giant plastic tree guard which doesn't biodegrade, it litters, it causes microplastics, and people… Adam: And are they reusable those plastic guards? Joe: They are to a certain degree, they're not easy to recycle, there are some better recycling schemes now just starting. But actually, probably one in three are reusable. But a lot of places are too far to go and get them, people don't bother they get left and derelict and are expensive to go and collect every single one, especially when you're planting hundreds of thousands. So the biodegradable alternative is the absolute key. Find something that naturally, you know, biodegrades away back into the soil, doesn't harm anything, it doesn't use oil. Adam: Right, I'm just going to go up to… So, this is a biodegradable one? Joe: Exactly. Adam: It looks sort of yellowish and quite canvas-like but it's very it's very firm, it doesn't feel, I mean that feels a sturdy old thing this. Joe: Yeah so, we've got 5,000 trees we put in. We are using some old recycled plastic ones, so we've been given a few, but actually we've got 16 different types of biodegradable alternatives to plastic here. So, they range from cardboard, you know, made from paper or mulch to biodegradable plastics, which the jury is out on at the moment, to actually resins and oils from things like cashew nut shells and pine resin. We've got a train coming past us! Train noise Two and a half years ago, when we planted the 5,000 trees in all these biodegradable guards, we launched something called Big Climate Fightback, a big Woodland Trust campaign to bring people out to help plant trees and do their bit. And actually, we ended up with over 250 people arriving one Saturday – spades in hand – on the trains in all the train stations. And the people in Bath, and Bristol and Bradford-on-Avon must have thought “what on earth is going on?”, with over 250 people arriving with spades on the platforms. And they came in here, they planted trees en masse – school kids, families, local groups. Everyone came here to try and plant trees and with that we, you know, told people about the problem of plastics and we've basically now got one of the biggest sites in the UK for trialling an alternative to plastic – to try and protect these trees so they get to five, seven years to get to a good height where they're no longer susceptible to browsing by deer, by rabbits, by voles, which is the main reason the shelters and guards are here to protect them. Adam: And correct me if I'm wrong but there is a sort of school of thought saying well don't use any guards. I mean it's now sort of established practice that you've got to use a guard otherwise the tree won't survive, but there is this sort of vague thought we never used to use guards in the distant past, so why have we suddenly got obsessed with them? Joe: I mean deer numbers are higher than they've ever been, it's a huge amount of browsing by deer with no natural predators, so it's complicated, that is the simplest answer, but putting up a giant 6-foot fence is probably you know the other solution which is in a lot of cases, depending on size, it can be much more economic, more practical. Very small areas – probably not massive areas, but medium sized – deer fencing is probably the answer, but then you've still got rabbits and voles you've got to fence out. So, doing nothing, over-planting, natural regeneration – we've got an area if you look up to the edge of the woodland we've left the buffer zone of about 20-30 metres around lots of this woodland, all around it, with nothing, we've just fenced it off and we're just going to allow the woodland to expand – every one of those berries and those nuts and seeds that drops into the ground will hopefully just have a, you know, wild natural generation. Like Knepp with a huge rewilding – that hope of what happens there doesn't happen as easily here but can take a long time. Hopefully that will establish woodland itself, but it may take 50 years. At the moment we've got a climate emergency on us and amongst us, so we have to do something now so planting trees is a very good quick solution. Adam: A huge issue because if we are planting for ecological reasons what we don't want to do is every tree comes with its own polluting plastic. I mean that's not the future. So, the answer to that question may well lie in the thousands of experiments you're carrying out in this field we're standing in. Joe: Absolutely. Adam: Right, well I've stopped us walking. We better… I better get my steps in. So, let's carry on. Where are we heading to now? Joe: So, we're gonna go and find our two volunteer wardens in a minute. Adam: So, we've got two volunteers hard at work. I can see just up the hill a bit. Joe: So, this is James and Kay who are both our two volunteer wardens. They've been working now replacing broken, rotted, fallen biodegradable tree guards, replacing the trees as they die as well, and these two have been working hard to help keep an eye on them for the last few years for us. Adam: It's got them hard at work! Joe: They are incredibly hard at work. Hey guys how you doing? Kay and James: Alright? Hi! Hello. Adam: They do have you hard at work! So Kay and James, so first of all before we get to what you're actually doing, why have you been doing it? What's your interest? Why did you volunteer to do all of this? Kay: Well, you've been a volun… a member of the Woodland Trust for about 25 years. James: Well, it's about 35 years now. Kay: Since this is really on our doorstep, this is a perfect opportunity to get really involved with the Woodland Trust. Adam: James, I mean, you've been a Woodland Trust member for a very long time. And, ah the debate around trees has changed enormously. Hasn't it? James: It has, and I am glad that people have suddenly valued trees. I was in the military but, before that, I was out of Kent, out near Canterbury and my uncle was a farmer with orchards and basically from the earliest days I knew about the trees, the names of trees. The pollards at the end of the field as windbreaks, the various wetland trees down in the floodplains around the Romney Marsh area. But I already had a fascination for the massive oaks, the spectacular deciduous trees on the horizon I think made this this countryside look like it does, so British, and so English, with these gorgeous round shapes, compared to a lot of conifers you see in all the European places I've been to. Adam: Okay, talk me through a bit about what you're actually doing here – I mean, you know, hammer in hand I can see. Kay: Hammer in hand, we're replacing some of the tubes that haven't stood up to the wind and the rain. We found that circular rather than rectangular and… Adam: works, circular works… Kay: circular works, because otherwise if it's square they act as a flag, especially cardboard ones. When they get wet, they just disintegrate – as you can see there's lots of bare sticks around here, so yeah, we're going through and replacing them with circular ones. Adam: Fantastic, now I know that the local community were very involved with the Trust, sort of when the Trust took over and sort of designed this site. Tell me a bit about what the local community feel. Kay: That was a great day. We had two schools frog marched in, and yeah, with their teachers and staff and they planted the whole area, which was lovely – they were naming the trees as they were planting them. I know the whole village got involved with planting 5,000 trees over a progressive few weekends and subsequently James and I have been replanting the failures. Adam: And James I mean very clear how engaged you are with this sort of issue but to tell me about the feelings then of the local community and what they what they felt when Woodland Trust first came here and how involved others are apart from you two. James: So, I'm very pleased that people are actually accepting, on the whole, that their backyard has been filled with trees and shrubs which are growing up for their children's lifetime. Kay: We have had some objections to this, but they haven't given their reason why. I assume it's because it's used when we do get snow, which is very rare, it's the sledging field. The Woodland Trust have kindly left a gap for sledging but then they moan that the grass is too long so you can't please everyone all of the time. Adam: But when it was first thought about, and I think it's really interesting isn't it, that you say the community are largely behind this, but I think if others are listening to you now where they may be talking about a woodland on their doorstep created by the Woodland Trust or their own sort of organisation – I wonder what people's first reaction, what were their concerns and hesitancies that you heard about that may have been overcome? Kay: People don't like change do they? And at the moment it's, yeah, it doesn't look picture perfect with the stakes and the guards on, but you've got to envisage what it will look like in 10-15 years' time. You've only got to look at the hedgerow, which is behind us now, and at this time of year which is beginning of May, it's absolutely gorgeous. The blossom's out, the fresh burst of the leaf is so colourful and vibrant, what's not to like about having a wood on your doorstep? And we were very lucky. Adam: Okay, well brilliant, well thank you very much. Look I don't want to disturb you anymore but that's brilliant. Thank you very much. Kay: Thank you! Adam: So, we're gonna head up now to the ancient woodland. Now this is certainly unique in any of the Woodland Trust sites I've been to, because normally the Trust actively encourages people to come in, but this is the only site I've been to where the ancient woodland bit you stop people from coming. Oh, look this is… Joe: This is our nifty little fenced area which… Adam: We're going through the barbed wire so just be careful going… So, explain to me why you've unusually actually kept the public out of the ancient woodland. Joe: Ash dieback really is becoming a huge problem across a lot of woodlands I manage. I manage about 30 woods across the West Country and every one of them has large amounts of ash that really grows really well on these sort of limestone soils and in these hills around the Mendips, the Cotswolds. Gosh there's a huge Buzzard just soaring over the edge of the woodland there. So, ash dieback is killing off essentially all our ash trees. Estimates vary at the moment. You know recently it was about 95% and then people said it was around 60%. So, the latest estimate is that about 60% of our ash trees will die over the next 50 years. How fast they die is the worrying thing but when we bought the wood in 2019 ash dieback was blowing across the landscape. It is a fungal disease. It naturally spreads. It came over from Asia originally in infected stock of nursery trees being planted out. So, no one's been able to plant any ash for the last three years. It's now being reported all the way from the east of Great Britain, all the way to the west, every year, until it's spread and spread and spread now our mature ash trees – whether they're in a hedgerow, along roadsides and country lanes, whether they're in woodlands – ash trees are essentially dying en masse, and this is killing off everything that lives and breathes on those ash trees. Adam: And the reason you're keeping the public out is because the trees are dangerous, are they? They might fall? Joe: Yeah exactly, so where you have a path or road or property you have to maintain, you know, what's reasonably practical safety for people to be able to walk under it. We realise if we were to create a load of paths, allow a load of people into now what is a fantastic ancient woodland, but it has never really had any paths in, it's been undisturbed for generations – over 100 years now – we don't think anyone set foot in it. So, we didn't want to create any paths because we didn't want to fell any trees, so we've kept it shut and all the locals have seemed to have bought into that and are really pleased this is just a woodland for wildlife. They're happy enough to walk around the fields where we've created woodland. Adam: And is it also something of a laboratory to see what happens to ash dieback? If you really don't step in and try and do anything? Joe: Exactly yeah, so, in so many woodlands across Britain because of the large amount of public footpaths, people are having to fell for health and safety reasons, so there's not very many examples where if no one goes in and nothing happens, what happens to that wildlife? Does it also dramatic- dramatically decline, with the trees losing? Or are there some winners? So, are there some decay species? Some fungi species? Some insects, beetles that love decay rotting wood that increase? So we don't really know. So, this site we've turned into a living laboratory, this is a unique case of where we are monitoring the species within the wood, how they react to ash dieback over time. Adam: We're now going into the bit of ancient woodland which the public are locked out of and so we have got this big “keep out, closed due to ash dieback” (sign). Joe: You have exclusive access! Adam: Brilliant, now I gotta say, I mean I've got to take a photo of this because this is a sea of amazing plants. I'm really, I want to be careful where I tread, I don't want to disturb anything. Because I'm completely ignorant, what are these plants? Joe: Can you smell it? Adam: Yeah sure, it's extraordinary! Joe: This is wild garlic. Adam: Is that what it is? Joe: Ramsons are all in flower at the moment and now we can see for literally, well, hundreds of metres is the white snowy tops of these wild garlic flowers that are just coming up across the thick green leaves and when there's no path in sight you have to be careful where you tread. So, luckily wild garlic's quite prolific, so we'll tread carefully, but an undisturbed wood looks like this. It's like a sea, or a carpet of sort of snow. Adam: That is extraordinary, isn't it? Yes it is a sea of snow and that's the advantage of actually having undisturbed places. Is that it, I mean, yeah sea is exactly what it looks like. These sort of white foaming tops to the rolling green waves of vegetation. Quite amazing. Joe: All you can make out are the occasional tracks of foxes, badgers, stoats, weasels, that have gone through it, maybe the odd deer as well. But insects seem to be declining catastrophically. The ideal analogy is, you know, people used to drive around even in the 80s and you get windscreens splattered with bugs and insects. It just doesn't happen anymore and that massive decline of insects, it's unknown the reason, it probably doesn't help with, you know, when people are using lots of pesticide sprays across the countryside, along with climate change, but as all those insects decline so do our birds that feed on them, so are our bat species – so they're not fat enough to basically get through the hibernation and then when they come out of hibernation and the young are born there are just not enough insects so they don't make it through the summer essentially, and they don't have another generation that makes it. So, yeah, bat species are declining at the moment, so that's one of the first things we've noticed, and well ash are declining en masse. There were a lot of these species of ash that we're monitoring that are all dying en masse. Adam: I mean so that, I mean, …you're telling me all these terrible things Joe: Yes, I know. Adam: But I mean that's important it's still amazing landscape still isn't it? Joe: Absolutely. Adam: And that's always been true with woodlands. That decay brings its own new life and decaying trees are very important parts the of the ecosystem, but even given all of those challenges that you talk about are there any, are there any high points, any reasons for optimism? Joe: Well, wild garlic's obviously doing really well in this particular wood! But there will be some species that do, really, there will be some species of butterfly that you know do really successfully with the increased amount of light. But one of the best success stories, the best things you can do to feel positive about it is to go back out into those fields, plant the trees, the next generation, so that if some of these woodlands do suffer for whatever reason then we've got far more woodland habitat. We need to increase our woodland cover from about 13% to 20% fast and then if we get 20% – we've got the shrubs, we've got the tree species, got the rewilding areas – to be able to provide those homes for the species that aren't doing so well. That's the key I think is to plant the next generation, get there quickly. Our woodlands have a fantastic history and have been managed over time. This is just the next phase in the management to basically keep an eye and ensure our guardianship secures for that next generation in the next 50-100 years. Adam: Well I'm going to leave Joe to smelling his wild garlic, because TV presenter and journalist Alice Beer, who I used to work with, I know lives not that far from this woodland. Now I know she's out and about today so I'm going to call her on her mobile to discuss what the countryside around here means to her and her family. Okay, so just Alice first of all we should explain a bit about our history, so everybody… Alice: Oh must we tell everybody? Do you think we should? Adam: I think we should share a little bit. I used to open letters on Watchdog which was a massive massive programme at the time and I can't, do you remember how many people watched it? I can't Alice: Well I don't know I'd come to watchdog from That's Life and That's Life, which was before you were born Adam I'm sure, had 15 million viewers in its heyday and I think Watchdog was around 7 million viewers, which now is completely unheard of, but then you know it was just 7 million people watching it and more importantly 7 million people putting pen to paper. No emails, pen to paper, and thank God Adam Shaw was in the post room! Adam: Yes I was opening the 7 million letters with one or two other people and Alice was much more senior, so we would come to pass those stories onto Alice and of course, you are now, what's your official title? Alice: I suppose I'm actually probably daytime television presenter but I'm far too much of a snob to say that! I kind of dip in and out of various things trying to still help the little guy or pass on information. Adam: You have a regular spot on a very big programme, This Morning? Alice: Well, This Morning, yes, it's every day, it's now two and a half hours, they keep extending it! I am waiting for it to bump up against the Six O'Clock News soon! But This Morning it was, “can you do a piece on brisk walking and the health benefits”, as a result of some survey that came out, so here I am for the second time today brisk walking and broadcasting at the same time which is fantastic! Adam: Very good! Don't trip over! You've got a couple of dogs with you haven't you as well? Alice: I have, I've got Stanley who's my five-year-old schnoodle and his girlfriend Tilly and there are times when they become quite amorous in the long grass but I'm going to try and keep it clean for your sake! Adam: I knew you when we used to work in Shepherd's Bush in London, but you are now a country girl aren't you? Alice: Yeah, wellies welded to my feet! I grew up in suburbia and in North London suburbia and the countryside wasn't really important to me, but my parents took me out, took me and my sister out walking quite a lot. There was always “shall we do the walk through the woods”, “should we do the walk through the bluebell woods” which is slightly longer or “should we go up and round” which involved the hill. So, there was always a consciousness of walking in the countryside as a pleasant thing to do, but as we've got older, the countryside has become more important to me and we have been doing that thing, my partner and I have been doing that thing where we're trying to move out of London and we've settled on this beautiful village, beautiful functional village not far from Malmesbury in Wiltshire, which is where I am now, walking alongside the River Avon. So not too far from Avoncliff and the same body of water sort of flowing past me which is rather nice. Adam: How lovely. I know, I've seen you on This Morning as you're talking about wellbeing, and in terms of actually, with your consumer journalist hat on talking about the gadgets you could buy to help with wellbeing and having lights I think that show, sort of, natural light. I mean, how important do you feel it's been for you and your family during these rather difficult times to have access to nature and the outside? Alice: It's been everything to me. Everything. I've got teenage girls in fact it's their birthday today, their 19th birthday today, so for them probably it spells isolation for them because they didn't grow up in the countryside, or this this particular part of the countryside, so you know this means being away from their friends, but for myself and my husband it's been, it's been really important. For me to leave the house and walk in space because in London everything has felt very close and very claustrophobic and I'm mentally not good at that at all! So, I'm incredibly lucky to be able to breathe and give myself sort of mental and physical space away from other people. I was able to work from here, so I did sixty live broadcasts from, in effect, my back garden during lockdown. Adam: It's really interesting that you talk about your girls sort of feeling a sense of isolation because they came from the city and now are in a very rural area. I often find that it's a curious thing to get one's head round because really the nature debate about sustainability and trying to be better for the world is often very strongly led by young people. Alice: Oh it's theirs, it's completely their campaign! But I'm not sure that they associate it with, I mean, I feel like I'm treading on dangerous territory speaking, you know, putting words into their mouths because they're both very eloquent, quite passionate girls. I feel that I'm not sure that they would stand out in a field and say “we must protect this”. Probably coming from the city, they feel more that they see stuff, they see things going into bins, they see landfill, smoke, pollution. So, they see the big preservation of our world from a city perspective, probably more than standing in a field and thinking “oh this must never have, you know, thousands of houses built on it”, which is what probably makes me panic as much as anything. Adam: Do you get a sense of a change in people's attitudes in the way they behave, I mean, I think people talk about the need for ecological sustainability. I see amongst my friends and family, I have to also be careful about what I'm saying, I see less actually willingness to change personal behaviour than a willingness to say it's important, but they don't do an awful lot. Do you see that real difference? Alice: I'm a huge hypocrite, but I am now suddenly, it was probably about six months ago I was putting something in the bin, and it sounds like a strange Greta Thunberg epiphany, but it slightly was. I was putting some plastic in the bin, and I was trying to clear out a room and I was thinking this is going nowhere! This can't be recycled. This has to go underneath the ground, and this is not going to break down. I had a sort of panic about the fact that well if I was doing this and everyone was doing this and though I sort of have had that epiphany and I am changing my behaviour, and nothing particular triggered that, apart from me clearing out a bedroom and realising I had too much stuff. You know, which is odd, but you know, in terms of the big picture in the world I think it's very hard to make individuals feel responsible when we see big companies not taking responsibility. It's that sort of, well what difference is little me gonna make? And I've sort of had that, well I'm going to make a difference, so I will. I've had that moment and I think we have to all have that moment and I'm just about to fall into the River Avon, which could be interesting! I'm trying to encourage the dogs to have a drink. There you go guys, come on, look Tilly have a drink! Yeah well they're sort of having a drink, but I'm the one that's most likely to go in here. Adam: Well look, Alice, I feel split because I quite like the sound effect of you going in to end this, it'd be a great end wouldn't it! But on the other hand not a great way of re meeting after all these years. Look I will let you get on with your walk but thank you very much, thanks a lot. Alice: Thank you, thank you. Adam: Well, let's leave Alice Beer there and indeed all our friends at Avoncliff Woods. I do hope you enjoyed that and if you want to find a wood near you, you can go to the Woodland Trust website, woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood and you can find a wood that's local to you. So that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. I do recommend you do that. Until next time happy wandering! Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. Why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast. Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special, or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Today's conversation with Adam Kawalec on Income follows Impact fits under the P of Pricing of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Adam is a former top-level manager turned life & business coach, co-founder of a unique and internationally recognized personal trainer school, who has built a thriving business based on referrals only. With over 16 yrs of experience in change management, leadership and mental training Adam helps heart-centered coaches and consultants get paid doing what they love without having to sacrifice their life; work; or bank balance. Adam is also a founding member of the Humane Marketing Circle and I got to reference his work in the Selling Like We Are Human Book! Adam's favorite quote: "If you could only love enough, you would be the most powerful person in the world - Emmet Fox In this episode, you'll learn why income follows impact and... How can we move the pay line, give before we get? How do we avoid over-giving and burnout? Is money the only form of income? How else can we define success? What do we do with our ambition, our ego? Adam's Resources   Adam's Website For being a listener get access to the top 3 expert interviews from the Authentic Business & Marketing Summit hosted by Adam Connect with Adam on: Instagram Facebook YouTube LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hi, Adam, how are you today?  Adam: I am great. Thank you so much for, for having me here today.  Sarah: Yeah, I w we've been planning this for, we can say over a year, because it only has been over the span of a year, so I'm so excited to have you here with us today and talk about yeah. And intriguing topic. So you so graciously, let me share. Your concept of, you know, moving the pay line or you'll have to explain whether they are different concepts. This idea of Income follows impact or moving the pay line, whether they're the same or different [00:08:00] ones. But yeah, we do, we did share them, include them in the selling like we're human book. And so I'm just excited to expand on this concept a little bit. So maybe you start off by yeah. Telling our listeners. Maybe how you came up with this and, and then explaining the different ones, or if they're all the same, just going into details there.  Adam: Absolutely. Well, thank you. Well, so we, we, you and I, we decided to talk a little bit more about the income follows impact, which is just a really clever way I think, to kind of get people's attention. And we'll expand on that shortly and I, you know, for anyone who picked that up there is there is an exercise. There is a mind set thing that I often do, which I call move the pay line, which is. Which you graciously shared in your book. And I'd love to expand on that as well. And and th they, it goes hand in hand. It demonstrates how you actually deliver on the [00:09:00] promise of income follows impact. So if I, if I jump into it and start to kind of define. Impact means is, is really, if you listen to it, what we're saying is if you make an impact, if you make a big enough difference in someone's life and or business, there is a way for you to make a good living or you know, find some form of revenue at the end of that. And this really comes from the idea of, I think I picked this up from Seth Godin where this, like, people are only willing to pay for something they see as. Like, so they, they, they, they, you know, they need to see value. And throughout my career, working with, with clients and, you know, having conversations and sales conversations and enrollment calls and all of that, what I notice really makes the difference is to give people an experience versus explaining the concepts. So, for example, if, if I'm doing business coaching or if I'm doing something around life, coaching [00:10:00] me avoiding just to explain what it could do for them, me instead showing them what that could do for them always moves them closer to that decision of. Let's let's do this. Let's continue. And so through the work I did with my coach anchors Jane, at that point, we came up with that idea, that income follows impact. The more impactful you can be as a coach, the less you will struggle as a coach. Because a lot of times we spend, we spend time on creating content. We spend time in being in conversations, and we're talking about coaching. We're talking about. The outcome what's possible. And this applies to anyone. If you're a trainer healer consultant, we're talking about, about the things that we can create, Moses actually giving them some form of experience of that. So that's what I applied to my [00:11:00] business. It's what I try to help my clients see as well that wherever you can Well, let's not just say let's wherever you can, but, but rather say where you can try to give the experience before the concept trying to give content before the concept, like give them context because then they will actually know. So that's kind of the income follows impact. And to be honest, Anytime. I feel a bit anxious about my bank accounts or the growth of my business. I can, I can go back and I can self-reflect and I can say, well, how much of a difference are you making? How much of an impact are you making? Right. And to be honest, it actually always puts me in a more creative mode when I go like, Let's focus on impact here. Let's focus on making a difference versus right. Let's make more money. I, I just happen to believe, you know, be part of that group of people who are not necessarily driven by money. But impact, I mean, you, you talk about impact pioneers, [00:12:00] right? That's, that's definitely the, the, the tribe I subscribed to. And, and so, yeah, I think that's quick and easy explanation of income follows. Yeah,  Sarah: I love that. And what you just said, there's such a different energy to it. When you say, you know, when you're kind of in this scarcity thinking, feeling mode and you're like, well, Should I hustle more to, you know, get more clients and then that feels like more scarcity, or should I look at how can I make more impact? And that just kind of has this opening energy. And it feels like, wow, that is very, very different. So I love that. I love that. Obviously that. Another kind of marketing concept that comes to mind is, is this idea of the know like, and trust factor, right? So I think that plays into it because if we are just talking about [00:13:00] things, Well, how will people know, like, and trust us. And so by really experiencing you and what you can deliver that helps with that know like, and trust factor. Maybe. Maybe we could give some examples because in the typical marketing you know, path or funnel where we usually think of the typical e-book or the free audio download or things like that. So yes, that could be an option, I guess, to, you know, work with your impact or, or trust factor, but you are talking about experiences and, and. I think that an ebook would count as an experience of podcast may count as an experience, baby. But yeah. Tell me more of what you mean by experiences.  Adam: Mm, good. Yes. So I think you're right. [00:14:00] There are degrees to facilitating an experience and really what I mean when I'm saying experience. We want to go for trying to give an experience of what it looks like to work together. So now obviously an ebook can sort of do that. And I would even say if it's an ebook, you do want to make sure, I think my personal recommendation is make sure that it's about. What I mean by that is like, don't try to prop yourself up too much, like make, make your clients, your customers, the hero of that story, because it gives the, it gives the experience of working with you where it's like, you're going to put them in the center and you're going to focus on them so it can work because they can feel like, wow, he's, he's, he's really committed to my growth, our growth. Wow. She really sees the individual. That alone can shift things right away. And then obviously we can move up the ladder and we can go to podcasts, [00:15:00] which is probably even better because you get to listen to the you know, the, the tone of the boys the pacing, the expressions the warmth or the, you know, the depth to whatever we were able to convey. So that's another way Actually I just  Sarah: get in there and ask something because I was just listening to a podcast today and I made this reflection where I think the last. The less kind of, you know, bells and whistles a podcast has to me. So, you know, how we all kind of got used to the super intro with Barbara, like you hired this voice and it sounds like really, whoa, look at this show and here is Sarah athletic coach. So the less kind of professional, almost, maybe the word is it is. The more, I feel connected to the host. And I was wondering [00:16:00] about that because I, I kind of given myself permission over the years to do these muse episodes where it's just me talking and, you know, they're way easier for me to create. I just hit record and do some audio editing. You know, not cutting out any words, but just kind of improving the audio and, and then off, off I go. But it was a big struggle to think. What are people going to think? This is not as professional as all the other ones, but then today I noticed, you know, what I love does podcast host, but yet I feel so detached because I don't feel like I'm having a real experience with them. I just feel like. Talking to a huge audience. What do you think  Adam: about that? Well, I think you're really onto something here. And especially going back to what you represent with the humane marketing and humane selling, I think authenticity is, is what comes up for me, right. That [00:17:00] we want to have real authentic connections to the people we surround ourselves with. And it is part of what I actually think is. What I talk about when I talk about impact, because one of the, I think misunderstandings or myths possibly in our industry of, of being a helper is that we need to be gurus. We need to be put on pedestals and we need to be. Celebrities and you know, for anyone who can't see this, I'm smiling, as I'm saying it, there's a little bit of a, like, you know, a bit humor in this, of course there's nothing wrong with having a following or something like that. It's just I believe that the power in, and I'm going to refer to coaching we're helping the power of the helping happens through the relationship. Because I can give you all the best tools in the world. And if our relationship is off, most likely you're not going to receive them. Like you're not going to receive them the way I intended for them to be received. Because we're, we're having an [00:18:00] issue with how we're listening to each other, how we're connected. And if we start our relationship where you look at me and put me on a pedestal, meaning that you're looking at. At me a chance to solve we're already in an unbalanced relationship. If you're looking up at me, you might be afraid of making mistakes. You might be afraid of confessing that you didn't do your homework that you failed. And all of a sudden we could go as deep as we need to for your sake, because you're not being honest. So my faith. My celebrity status is actually damaging the relationship and therefore the potential of my clients right now. You also don't want to have them look down upon you, like, which is really weird if they did. But what I mean by that is we don't want to be, and this might be a touchy subject, but I'm going to go ahead and say, we don't want to overshare. We don't want to be over vulnerable [00:19:00] vulnerabilities are powerful. And I just think we, we want to be mindful around that. And what I mean then is we, we want to avoid role reversals where our clients, all of a sudden feel like they need to comfort. That creates a very weird dynamic. And yet I see this happen. I see this happening group programs. I see this happen in conversations where we overshare something that we are simply not in a, in a space to share yet. It's to rule now where we do want to be is really human to human. I leveled. If that's how you say it, right? Because at that point it's a more mutual, respectful human connection. And I think anything that we can to provide that kind of expensive. In an ebook, a podcast, a video, even in our emails, right? The more we do that, the, I think that's strong with the relationship [00:20:00] becomes and the better for, for the client in terms of the potential. So what that looks like is probably very individual based on who you are and what your brand is about. And as you said, perhaps it is about less bells and whistles and more connection. Sarah: Okay, thanks for exploring that side. Tangent. It's just, yeah, it kind of was brought up today. So I was like, oh, let me ask him that. So let's go back to the, the idea of yeah, we were talking about podcasts as being one of the things that we can offer. What would be some other experiences?  Adam: Well, another thing you brought up as an example in your book selling like we're human. You, you went on to explain a little bit about when I hosted my summits and the beginning of last year, where I, as far as I could, as much as I could, I was sending personal video messages to everyone who signed up [00:21:00] and it was a free event to sign up for. There were quite a few messages to go, go out. And I sent a video message where I would S you know, wave and say mentioned the name and say, I'm glad to have you here. I hope you find this interesting. And I used to add something personal based on that day. And, and, you know, the mood I was in I add some software to help me with arts. So that made it easier. Cause it might be a bit tricky to figure that out otherwise. And that was just something that I wanted to commit to as a way to already give people way before they even joined the, the the summit or way before they even start to reaching out to me, they are hearing my voice. They're seeing my body language. They're seeing my, my, my facial expressions. They're getting an experience. So that's yet another way. So again, give the experience a way before people even start working.  Sarah: Yeah. And they, they really feel, and I think they felt [00:22:00] those people who signed up for your summit, they felt heard and seen as, you know, participants of the summit. It's not just a, you know, here's a mass email that we all know by now. Okay. Yeah. He's not really talking to me personally. So having that personal touch it's of course. Yeah. It's, it's one of the ways to, to create impact. I, I couldn't agree with you.  Adam: I guess would it be helpful for me to expand on the move, the pay line concept? So you kind of give people an idea of what can they do for, for themselves. So the idea that I was fortunate enough to Shane in your book move the pay line is is this idea that. Well, w we had that analogy in the book. So let me start with that. So you picture yourself on a beach where you got your bare feet in, in, in the sand, and you have a stick in your hand and you, you draw a line from top to bottom towards your feet. So there's like two columns there, two [00:23:00] sides beyond that, that line in the sand and to the right of that. And the right column. You start writing things that you do with your clients. Once they sign up with you on state pay you and they start working with you in, in some form of container, you start adding, like I'll send out a, a workbooks. I'm sending out my, my ebook that I wrote two years ago. I give them. Access to my oh, summits that I used to run. We create strong agreements. I give them access to me via WhatsApp and of course we have conversations and all of that, just just a few examples right now, if we've listed an exhausted our resources or ideas to what we do, once someone becomes our class. We can then move on to the left side of that line, to the left column. And on this side, we're asking ourselves, what could I borrow from the right side onto [00:24:00] the left side, left side being, how can I give people an experience before they pay me? So now the line symbolizes a before and after payments. So all of a sudden. I can look at all the things I provide as a part of the experience of being a pain client. Other versions of that I can share already way before they become my clients. Maybe I could give access to parts of my summit. Maybe I can get out my e-book. Maybe there are ways for me to send messages that are really directed to that individual justice. I would, once they become my clients. And so all of a sudden we're moving the pay line in, in terms of. It was kind of moving it up into what we already offer as as for our pay paying client. Again, this way, it just helps. We don't have to come up with something new. We can just revise and review what we have and go, how can I put this out? How can I give [00:25:00] people access to this? How can I provide an experience before they have to pay?  Sarah: Yeah. As you know, in the selling like we're human book, I'm calling the signposts. That that's what a signpost is to me is this idea of, you know, gently leading your ideal client along the path to maybe eventually end up in your serene garden, where you do have a sales conversation, but in the meantime, you give them all these benches where they can. And they can sit down and, and yeah. Kind of you know, listen to your podcast or to your summit and whatever, not you're sharing with them. And what I like also, what you said is. That it doesn't have to be a, you know, something new, a new, a whole course that you're creating or, you know, how we get into, like, there's a lot of talk about funnels and how we come up. People come up with these really complicated funnels and [00:26:00] it doesn't have to be complicated. It can really just be, well, what am I already doing? And pull some things to the other side. So I love this concept of just saying. Well, what. Do I do already that, you know, doesn't cost me anything, obviously we're not wanting you to, you know, necessarily spend, you know, free coaching or, or any of that. That's up to you if you decide to do that. But, but that's not the idea here. It's like, what do I have already that I can give for free and help with that, you know, guidance towards the serene garden. Yeah. I love that.  Adam: If I can expand just quickly on this. This is actually something that was really is really current for me. And I've, I've been fortunate enough now to be in really strong conversations around this. I have noticed, and it's something that I've taken for granted for quite some time. And I've noticed that [00:27:00] asking questions. Is is definitely the way. I mean, especially in my case, I'm a coach. So asking questions is kind of what I do. So. When I slow things down and now we're talking about people who are reaching out or coming in by email or WhatsApp, there's an introduction being made and I'm connected with someone. Normally the typical thing that perhaps I would do or anyone else would do is just because that person came in. We know there's an interest. We say, fantastic. Here's my Calendly link or here's my Yeah. Any, any calendar link that we use to schedule something or something exactly. Sign up. Hey, and let's get on a call, right? That's a typical thing. Cause we're really quick on it. If we, first of all, I think pre-qualifying can be useful. And especially because this is the side I'm seeing right now, the really cool thing is because I've been really busy. So I've been having to pre-qualify people I've been having to extend some of them [00:28:00] time I spend with people. And so I've been asking more questions and the really cool thing happened just a couple of weeks ago, where someone came into my sphere and. I started asking questions and I kept asking questions and I had her come up with, well, it seem deeper and deeper. And as like, even the first message I sent her, she was like, oh my God, those are great questions. And this is also a coach. So I found that really humbling that she felt like, oh, those were really good questions. And we kept going the day after. I receive randomly from my website, someone going through my application form to sign up for a free conversation with me. They went through, they scheduled a conversation with me and usually I have an idea of who's coming in and who's not. So this was a random person. I couldn't recognize the name. And we were starting having a conversation because of the email coming in. And she, she told [00:29:00] me, well, I came in because of. You're in conversation with another woman and she recommended me to reach out to you and that's the woman I'm texting with. So she's already having an experience of the possibility that's on offer here so much so that she's willing to even say to someone she knows, you know what? You produce, probably have a look at his website. She'd probably look into this guy and that that woman then goes through and kind of comes out the other side of. In my calendar right now, I'm sharing that just to say, kind of highlight the power of again, giving the experience. So even before I'm accepting anyone before we get on a call before those money exchanged, she's experiencing the possibility of work together through the questions through me, having her see. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah, that is powerful. And instead of, you know, maybe increasing the filters and saying, no, let me [00:30:00] block you out. We can just engage in the questions. And from there still then decide, you know, is this a good fit or not yet?  Adam: And you mentioned this thing that it doesn't have to cost a lot. And I just want to say that, that part of what I tend to do is I send other people's resources. I've sent your book to people. I've made sure that they listen to episodes of your podcast. I have a list. I got a long list. I call the ultimate resource list. Right. And I just keep adding things there. If I watch a really good YouTube video, I'll add it to that. Now we can send other people's results. And we can say, Hey, if you enjoy that, we should get on a call and explore that. Right? So already asking questions, sending them useful resources, having them do some homework, even before they start working with us, having them experience transformations way before they stopped paying us is a beautiful way to introduce the idea of the experience rather than the concept.[00:31:00]  And I'm not going to say any more because clearly I can talk about this forever, but it's, I hope we're giving some ideas to the, the audience, the listeners on how they can start doing pieces of this themselves.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, I liked that a lot. This, this idea of experience versus I guess transaction, I, the word that comes up, so yeah. Yeah. I want to steer you in another direction. I think a lot of the listeners they are. And you notice you're in the circle, we're you know, heart-centered entrepreneurs where impact pioneers. So we are, you don't need to tell us, you need to give before you get usually that's, you know, we're good at that. And so I think that is a great advantage. And it can also get to the point where it becomes a disadvantage or it becomes a challenge. I know I share about the, my over-giving [00:32:00] burnout in the marketing, like where human book. And I know that you had kind of have a, an over giving or, or just kind of a burnout moment as well in. Previous career. So maybe tell us about the, that burnout story and what it was linked to you. And then. Yeah, how do we, how do we deal with that? How do we still give, and yet also make sure that we are, you know, safe and healthy and happy.  Adam: Yeah. Th this is an important topic, especially for us. You said heart centered entrepreneurs. So my own personal experience and I I've, I've had it several times. Like it's, it's, you know, I think it's, to me, it was just, it's a tendency, it's a strength. And it's also one of my. Greatest. Potentials. So in, in my corporate career I had a burnout because I've just continuously saying if only I have X, then things will be better. And I kept saying that it [00:33:00] was like the carrot on a stick just dangling in front of me. And I was continuously saying like, I'll just get to that point. Then everything will be fine. I got to that point, but something else was now not, not good. And I continued and I continued and finally, I just couldn't get out of bed. I had clearly. Went way beyond my boundaries. So that was part of what I needed to understand. And I did come up with an idea after that w which has been really helpful in, in, in my coaching and my personal life as well. And it is this to kind of fill your own cup first. And, and I, I call this energy management. So. I have this idea that, and we all know this, like recharging our batteries and filling our own cup is often a really powerful way to do, especially for helpers because we're, we're far more effective when our cups are full or our batteries are full. The challenge though, is that we tend to feel that. And then we start giving again and, you know, because we're giving the [00:34:00] levels decrease and now we're down to 30, 30%. And all of a sudden we only have a maximum capacity of 30 to give. Whereas if I would have been back on hundreds, I could have given much, much more. So my personal insights, my, my solution to that became to fill my cup up and keep. Because it's the overflow that I then share freely. And so for me, it was about figuring out what fills my cup. And once I figured that out, make sure that it never gets turned off. So I start my day. I make sure that parts of my agenda is to fill my cup and keep it full because then if I move into a space of service, there's no depletion because it's an ever flowing. Sarah: Yeah, I love that picture. It's just like the minute it's empty, it's filling again. And then you share whatever is, you know, [00:35:00] dripping over and it has a lot to do with, you know, abundance. Like that's what abundance is, is that that's when you. Can really share from this energy of abundance, because the minute you feel like, oh, there's less. And you know, I'm not feeling great and there's not enough for me. Well, guess what? You're not in abundance anymore. You're now in scarcity. And so that's also where this stressed and comes from. The other term. You mentioned boundaries. So I think that's an important part of it, right? Like we're not, we're not inviting you to just give without limits. Yes. You know, first of all yeah. Have your cup always full, but even then there's boundaries. Like if someone asks you, do you work for free? Well, no, of course not. You know, there, there are boundaries that you need to put in place. Do you work on the [00:36:00] weekend? No. If, if, if you don't want to work on the weekends, then that's a big, no. So there is a yeah, a big importance on, on boundaries and, and, and working on those and the I'll let you in, in a second, the other term I wanted to throw at you was ambition. So talk to us about boundaries and and then also ambition.  Adam: Perfect. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to make that connection. So it's W with the, with the boundaries. The ID I like to talk about around that is really when it comes to our us being heart-centered entrepreneurs helpers, we want to understand that there is a distinction here. There is being passionate about what you do, and also being a pro. And in, in early days when I started things, I was just passionate. I was, I was on a mission. I had a purpose and I was giving again. I told you I've [00:37:00] burned out several times, not just at my corporate career, but also doing what I'm doing today. So I've, I've, I've had to learn that and relearn that. And part of that is when things shifted for me, I was working with a coach who helped me see. There is a distinction by turning into a pro. One can, one can argue. It's, it's a question about the social self and the professional self. The social self wants to be liked and is afraid of saying no, we're putting boundaries in the professional self is the side that says, well, actually, I realize when I'm depleted, I'm doing a far less less impactful work than I otherwise could. So because of that, I limit the number of calls, the number of hours I work per week, so that I can guarantee to people to always show up on our high frequency, for example. Right. So that, so that's the distinction I'm trying to allow people to see is really. [00:38:00] Turn pro like stop treating this as a business, not as a hobby, not as just a passion project. I mean, if, if that's what you want, of course, to turn this into a business. And if we do, we are professionals be proud of that. And, and honor that, and it does tie into this idea of ambition and defining your success. But. If we don't define what success looks like to us, it is easy to overdo it. It is easy to think. Well, five clients are pro is probably better than, than. So let's go for fine. Well, that's the whole thing, right? Is it really, to you for you, maybe for clients is perfect for you because it allows you to have that time, that space to recharge and always make sure that you're coming from a place of full, maybe gives you time to grow, learn and stay on top of things and so on and so on. So you want to take charge of that.[00:39:00]  Ambition is a tricky thing. Like we could probably have a whole conversation about this, because that was my key, key learning. When I shifted away from, from where I was there is like in human beings, we have this amazing ability to be ambitious. It is, it is an amazing ability because you don't see this everywhere else. Like. If you look at animals, for example, they're not very ambitious. They're very concerned about the present moments, surviving humans, though. We put away money today so that we possibly can use that when we retire. That's very ambitious. That's very how do you say that for forward thinking? Yeah. And at the same time, if all you have is ambition, you will struggle with actually living in the present moment. And to be honest, life really happens only in the present moment. So we're missing out on a big piece of, of life. So [00:40:00] the opposite of ambition is enthusiasm, according to me. So we, it's one thing to use. And we also want to balance that with enthusiasm, meaning the excite excitement we feel in the present moment. Right? And so again, what can help us not to go to fall? Which is a typical thing. When we measure money, we measure followers. We measure tangible metrics is that 10 is good. 11 is good. 15 is even better. And then we just like, kind of start rolling because the ambition takes over. That's where we can start going. What's my upper lip. What's the limit that I would be happy to reach without necessarily sacrificing or crossing my boundaries, sacrificing my boundaries so that I can make sure to come from a place of abundance. First does this tidy all together, Sarah? [00:41:00] Yeah.  Sarah: No, it's so good. I'm so glad you, you mentioned this upper limit. I think it's. We are so. Brainwashed to always think about growth and more growth and more growth that, you know, the conversation of what if there was an upper limit. And what if, and obviously we're talking about money here as well. Right? What if I reached that upper limit and then I can really just. Do the things that fill my cup and then if it would still brings me joy then yeah. Maybe, maybe I can do some more because obviously we've also all chosen work that we love doing, but that's also where the danger is. I think, in, in our work, I mean, yes, it's great that we get to work and love it. And at the same time you can fall so much in love with your work. That in the end, you're still working all the time. Me now. And then [00:42:00] yeah, I think it's, it can be addictive. So, so I think it's a, it's worth having a conversation. You know, especially if you have a partner and loved ones and you're like, well, actually, yeah, I do love my work, but you know, how do they fit into the equation as well? So, So yeah, so good to have this and yeah. Enthusiasm. Isn't, that is a great word and curiosity as well. You know, where, where it's like, well, yeah, I have this ambition, but I have all this curiosity for other things that I want to do that maybe don't have to do with work. And, you know, Maybe if I do have this upper limit, then I have more time for following my curiosity. So honesty is one of my core values. So it's just like, yeah, I do want to do all these other things as well. So so good. Yeah. Is there anything that we haven't talked about [00:43:00] yet that you wanted to bring up with this idea of moving the pale paler?  Adam: Well, I was thinking about one other thing. Once we, you know, as I was preparing in my mind about this and it was this not to make this a big things, a very small distinction that can sometimes help to understand what it means to focus on the impact. And it is, it is this idea of don't don't look for clients, look for ways to be helpful. So. Whenever someone feels stuck. Like I can't find clients, where do I find clients? Well, let's not focus on clients. Let's focus on helping people being helpful. And, and again, obviously going back to what we just shared about boundaries and turning pro and defining success so that it actually makes sure to support your lifestyle goals when we start looking for ways to be helpful The spin off effects. The side effect of that is often [00:44:00] a poster becoming a client. It just, it sort of happens by itself. And to me, I found that to be quite. Helpful when, when the anxiety of, oh, I need clients. When that comes up, I just go like, hang on. Let's be helpful. Where can I be helpful? Because it's easy to find that then finding clients, I don't walk around seeing dollar signs above people's heads. Right. It's just not what I do.  Sarah: Yeah, that brings up. This is when I used to call organized LinkedIn local events here in, in Lozan. We maybe organize that with a friend and people came to these networking events, like you said, looking for clients. And I always told them don't your clients are not here. These are people, humans that may just know other humans who need you know, what you have to offer, but it's never a good idea to go to a [00:45:00] networking event and think those are all my potential clients. Like you give off the wrong energy, if you go into a room like that. So yeah, just thinking, oh, these are humans who may know other humans who have. Then yeah, potentially gonna have want to work with me, but, but also don't think, oh, I'm going to tell them, you know, tell all your friends about me. No, that's not planning  Adam: their.  Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Adam. I want you to share two things. First of all where people can find you, how they can find out how to work with you in a second. I think you have something where you walk your talk and people can really experience What it would be like to be in your circles. So tell us about, yeah,  Adam: exactly. Well, the easiest way, I guess, is you can just visit my website, which is Adam koala. K a w a L E c.com. And they, you can get in [00:46:00] touch with me. You can read more about the things that I do together with my clients. And you can send me an email from there as well. I am on social media. But I'm not a huge, huge fan or like a very, very present person there. So it can take some time before I see something, if you really want to make sure to get in touch with me send me an email and that's the that's the best way. And yes. So I, I really, I mean, I enjoy. Our conversations. And we started getting to know each other a year ago. And I was so happy when you decided to you were accepting my invitation to be part of my summit that I did last year, calling the authentic business building and marketing summit and authenticity to me like that. I just needed you to be part of that. So, and I'm so glad I did. And you said, yes. So to honor that kind of, I, I, I wanted to offer all the listeners a way to access the, the interview I did with you. And two additional interviews that are really on the topic of authenticity and connection [00:47:00] and providing experience for people. So and they can go again to my, my home website and it's Adam koala.com forward slash humane marketing. Human marketing protocols and that's where they can basically sign up for, for taxes, those three videos. And I'm sure that you'll link that somewhere around this episode as  Sarah: well. And the show notes and in the description of your, of your app, where you're listening to this podcast. So, yeah. Wonderful and generous offer. Thank you. And that summit was just so great. So thank you so much. And the final question, Adam, what are you grateful for today or this week?  Adam: I am going to say that I'm back running that I'm really grateful for, for being back running it's I took a bit of a, a pause during holidays and all of that, and today was my first day back running. And I'm really grateful for that. Like, it's, it's one of my, that's one of the things that [00:48:00] really feels like. And I can tell because the last few weeks slowly, slowly been some early drippings happening, happening for my, my refilling my cup. So I wouldn't say that. Yeah. Running nature moving the body. Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the show, Adam. Really  Adam: appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

How to turn your passion for visiting yard sales and thrift stores into a profitable side hustle. - FREE WORKSHOPWhat's up, guys? Today, we have the honor of introducing and interviewing Adam Smith, who has just recently within the last year jumped into flipping, but he's made some, sweet flips and he's made some awesome progress towards this reselling a side hustle, or profession, whatever you want to call it. So we're very honored, very glad to have Adam to the show. Adam, welcome. Thank you so much for jumping on here.Adam: Oh, thank you, Rob and Melissa. It's great to be [00:01:00] here.Melissa: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little background of you.Adam: Well, sure. I'm 41 years old. I have two young children, and two and four months, and I work a boring corporate job.And about a year ago, I, got into flipping, with the help of my mother who's been selling on eBay for years and years as a hobby and having fun. And she came and visited, for the holidays and we've said, well, let's sell some of this stuff around the house. And that's how I kinda got going, just selling stuff around the house.And, I had so much fun with it that I said, well, I'm going to start going to the thrift store. And I started selling stuff from the thrift store. And then, you know, I like to research stuff and I started a, what the heck is this reselling stuff? What the heck is flipping? And then that's how I found you guys and your videos on YouTube.And then that's really where it [00:02:00] launched, there. You know, a couple months after I started with my mom, I had found you guys. And I said, wow, we can really, I can really make some extra money at this. And this is really super fun. So that's probably more than you wanted in introducing myself, but...Rob: No, that was great. That's exactly what we want. We want your backstory, what you're doing, kind of how you found this career, this side hustle, whatever it is for everybody. So no, that's great. And you said one thing that throws a wrench into anybody's flipping business. You have young kids, you have a full-time job and you're still out there and you're doing amazing at flipping.So, yeah, that's awesome. Very, very exciting that, that is part of your journey and that's where you're at right now. So, yeah. Awesome. Awesome.Melissa: The kids take a lot of time. We know, very well, how much they take from your time, and we love it obviously, but it there's a lot less time left in the day to do anything else. So.Rob: The other thing I liked about what you said is you started from the stuff that's in your house. And a lot of people they find out about flipping and they think they have to go out and invest all this money, and then they have to have [00:03:00] all this inventory that they're not sure if it's going to sell, but you started with stuff that you had. That's kind of the way we teach people as well, stuff that you have sitting around the house, that you're not using anymore and start selling it, learn how to do the flipping and then you can actually expand and get bigger and go buy stuff that, you know, that's going to sell. So, yeah. That's awesome that that's how you started, for sure.Adam: Yeah, like I...Melissa: Go ahead. Sorry.Adam: Yeah, just having, you know, when I started, we had one, our first child, who was about two. And so I had quite a bit of extra time still, compared to what I have now. Now we have a four-month-old baby around the house, so it's really put a crunch on the amount of time, free time that I have to go out, you know, yard saling or thrifting, or just, you know, searching on Facebook marketplace for items. But I'll say it, it's still, I think the max I put in on a weekly basis would be 10, you know, 15 hours at the most. And I'm able to squeeze that in, you [00:04:00] know, after everyone's in bed, I'll, you know, do some listing of items or packaging up of items and stuff at night.So I, and I still get to bed at a reasonable hour. And then of course the kids have me up at 5:00 or 6:00 AM or something. So yeah, I think my sales in the first month, half of the year, we're really, really strong before baby came in June. And then it really tanked from June, July, and August. I really didn't have a lot of time cause baby was so young.But now that we've kind of settled into a routine and I can have that time at night and a little bit in the early morning to do flipping stuff, I'm right back to where I was in the beginning part of the year.Melissa: Awesome. So when you, you're saying around 10 to 15 hours, when you're on your kind of normal schedule, so what is that usually average a month when you're on the normal schedule?Rob: Income wise, that, that brings up a great point because a lot of people want to know if I can throw an extra 5 hours, 10 hours at this business, what can I expect? And you're like you said, you're [00:05:00] a new flipper within the last 12 months you've been actually doing this. So, kind of give us some numbers, you know, maybe averages, that you've been able to do on the selling side of it.Adam: Yeah, my average sales per month are around I think between $5,000 and $7,000 a month, I would say.Rob: That's awesome. I love it.Adam: Some months are better than like I said, June, July, August was a little, a little slow just because I didn't have a lot of time to list and, and stay on top of it. But I have, I have no doubt that if I, if I went full time at this, I could completely replace my corporate income and more. So like, this is my first year.I think I will end up around $70,000 to $80,000 in total sales and that's with just starting slow too. Cause I didn't find you guys until January or February of this year and that's when things really took off.Rob: Dude, you're you're, you're blowing my mind and I have so many questions [00:06:00] right now about just this $5,000 to $7,000 a month. The next question is kind of what's your niche? What, how are you getting to that's a substantial amount of money for a side hustle. What exactly are you doing? Like, what is your niche that you're doing to get to move the mountain on that? To make that money?Adam: I would say the two categories I do the most are appliances, you know, cooking cooktops, ranges, and then Sleep Number beds is probably the, the second category where I do really, really well. And what I've kind of moved into now, especially after, baby came in June is it's been harder to move larger items like ranges and stuff like that. So I started parting out cooktops and ranges and stuff that, cause it's so much easier to ship, you know, a small switch or a burner, and the money, the return is really good on those. Cause you can [00:07:00] often pick up a little bit older appliances that all the components still work, but you know, they're not the newest model or whatever, all the switches and valves and stuff like that still work on them.And I just part them out in the garage at night and then I list all those items and I sell them for a really good profit, you know, so I can take a range that I pick up for free or for less than a hundred dollars and, you know, flip it and make $500 to a thousand dollars on the parts off that range. So that's where I'm really kind of niching down into right now is, is, is the parting out appliances.Melissa: That's funny. We actually just went to dinner with one of our other course members the other day, and she brought up a point. She had a cooktop and it was or a range, I don't know if it... was it a range? She got it and it was missing one knob. She's like, it's fine. I'll go. I'll just purchase the knob. And she went to go purchase the knob and it was $300.Rob: $300.Melissa: And I think that's what she paid for the whole thing. And she's like, all right, well now, but then she ended up selling the [00:08:00] other three knobs for $300 or $400 each. So she was like, she just parted it out. It's like that. There you go.Rob: And I want to call attention to this. This is a great point. Some of you guys that do know Melissa and I, we do large items and it sounds like Adam does some larger items too, but he's also found a niche where he can part out items, sell smaller items and still make great, great money at it. So, yeah, that that's really, really an awesome point.Melissa: Sky's the limit.Rob: It is. You do not have to do super large items. And that's the big thing Melissa and I found with what we do, it's less time than selling tons and tons of small items. But if you're getting into these smaller items that have a higher profits on them, because...Melissa: Your knob is worth $300.Rob: Exactly. Adam's probably talking about appliances there, you know, maybe anywhere from 5 to 10 years old and people have one thing goes bad on it and Adam's got the replacement for it for a good price underneath what it would be for a retail price, if they had to go and order it from Whirlpool.Melissa: And half the time you can't find them anymore because they're older.Rob: Exactly. Exactly. So that's a great, great piece of advice, Adam. I love that, that you're actually thinking [00:09:00] outside the box and you're making some great money on smaller items, but higher profit, smaller items. So that's awesome. Great tip.Adam: Yeah, it's kind of enabled me to, to also limit the amount of time you spend listing and cleaning up some of those older items. And so now with the appliances, if I'm going to sell it and flip the larger cooktop or a full range, I pretty much will, I want to make sure they're in good condition when I buy them. So I still go for that, whatever profit I want to make, you know, 10 times profit is kind of what I look for, based on your advice.But if it's going to take me five or six hours to clean up that older thing, it's, it's just, doesn't become worth it. So I'll just part it out, it's easier to just tear it down. I can do that in an hour. I can tear down range an hour and, you know, to spend less time on it. I don't know if that makes sense.Rob: It does. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Categorize it and take it that tear down. There's only so many pieces to these, these appliances that you're working with. You, you know, you have wires, you have boards, you [00:10:00] have knobs. So there's only so many pieces that are really worth the money to flip. And it's another point to it that you didn't even say you, once you do it, you tear it down.You can get rid of the big components. You're not even storing that stuff. You take it to the scrap yard. You throw it away, whatever you do. So it is a lot easier in some aspects to do that. So, yeah. That's awesome. I love how your brain's thinking and working this whole, this whole process out. Cause you're doing yeah, you're doing amazing. So I'm super excited.Melissa: That's funny.Adam: That's another fortunate thing is my local community has a waste diversion center where I can recycle all the other components for free. I just dropped them off, you know, all the big metal components. So that's, that's worked out really well.Rob: I love it. I love it. That is that's amazing.Melissa: So if you have to reflect all the way back for this last year, I think it's awesome that you've only been at it for a year. What would you say are a couple of things that have contributed to your finding success, maybe like habits?Rob: Great question.Adam: That's a good question. I think [00:11:00] just kind of the discipline of, of even though when you're tired and, and, and don't want to go out to the garage and tear down a range or whatever, just making sure I, you know, you set goals of, I want to list one item per day. That's one thing the group has been really helpful with holding me accountable. We have a lot of challenges in the group, you know, we have the 30-day listing challenge, so that sticks in my head. I'm like, well, I got it. I don't want it, but okay. I gotta go out and do that cause I want to be able to post in the group that I made my listing for the day. Staying positive too, because there are challenges that have come up this year where, you know, for example, I had someone return a thousand dollar cooktop.They returned a different one than I had sent them. And, you know, they had, you know, it was a big scam. They were trying to, you know, it was fraudulent of course. And that was really stressful because it was, you know, I had paid the shipping. I had had to pay for them to ship it back to me cause I, [00:12:00] and so there was a lot of money on the line.So working through that, staying positive, knowing that everything can be kind of figured out and like it'll work out, in the right way in the end. That's not really a habit though. You can take that part out.Rob: But it's good. No, no, no, I like that. That's good. That's honest. We're working through a return right now, and that's one of the things that people, it does happen. There's bad parts to business. There are, there are bad parts that you do not want to deal with. And we're doing the same thing right now and you have to figure out the best way to do it, the best way to do it ,the best way to work it. And then you learn from every single situation.So even that return that you did, I guarantee you learn some stuff out of that return that you're not going to do the next time around. You're going to do it differently. So sometimes, I mean, we call it. It's not our coined phrase, but stupid tax to where you maybe acted quick out of something or you did something you learn from that, and I do the same thing every time I have something like this happens and you learn for the next [00:13:00] situation, how to handle it better.Melissa: To know is that those things they don't happen very often. Unfortunately, that's what keeps people from doing a reselling side hustle, because they'll think, oh, I don't want you know, to lose money on returns, but like that's the first return we've had in a year and a half.Rob: Yeah.Melissa: You're going to have that part of business in any business you do.Rob: And I'm sure you're the same way as a $1,000 cooktop, if you're making $5,000 $7,000 a month, you're not dealing with these all the time.Same with us. We've made probably $150,000 and ours was the same thing. A thousand dollars. A $1,300 that we're dealing with. And we'll come out okay with ours because I'll have insurance claim on it because it was damaged. But at the same time, it's just a little bit of red tape that you have to go through.So, I think that's great advice for people listening. This is not all hunky-dory. You still will have to work in there's some, some situations that will come up. It's how you shine through those situations and how you learn from them.Adam: Yes. Yeah. I would agree with that. That maybe the discipline or the habit there is just treating each situation as a, as a learning. You know, really, [00:14:00] since I'm in my first year, It's really, I've done a lot of stuff like that, where I'm going to just going to try this because I want to learn what it's like. You know, I want to learn how to do this. I obviously, I didn't try to do a return or a, a scam, but,Rob: You learn how to handle it though. You learned that it is, that stuff happens. Not that often. Trust me. I've never had,Melissa: I've never heard that with that big of a cooktop.Rob: No.Adam: It was a pretty gutsy move by them to return a completely different, it was the same model. Thankfully, I, I had taken pictures of the serial number and those were in the posting and, you know, we had to go, I had to go through the whole thing of filing a police report and all of that.And eBay did refund me. I did, I do think the buyer did probably, he got refunded automatically, you know, when, when he returned the thing. So, I don't know if he got flagged in the eBay system or not, and taken out, but they did refund me as well after I filed the police report and gave them the evidence. It all worked out in the end, you know, it was, you know.Rob: And that's, [00:15:00] that's a good lesson. It's a good lesson. You might've done a couple of things different than you did, but you had the proof that it was a different cooktop that he returned. You filed a police report, you got to the end of it. And you got your money back on the situation, on the, on the sale. Trust me, it's a headache, but everything is a learning experience. So like I said, you probably would do a couple things different or you probably know next time it happens.Melissa: But he had the pictures that was a big part of it.Rob: Exactly, it's huge to be able to have that. So, no, I, I kudos to you. I think that's awesome.And you're in your first year. A lot of people will roll over when something like this happens and go, oh, I'm outta here. I'm not flipping anymore. I can't do it when this is the result. And, it doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen sometimes. You have to be able to roll with the punches.You have to learn from it and you have to move forward. So, that's awesome that that's, that's your mindset and that's where you're at right now. I, yeah, I applaud you for sure.Adam: Yeah. I did feel that way that week, you know, I had several returns that we could, another damaged cooktop and it was, it was pretty low point and it was thanks to the group too, you know, Stacy,I don't know if I can [00:16:00] say her name on this public... Stacy really helped me through both of those events. And if it weren't for the group, I think, you know, I really would have considered like, maybe this isn't for me, but yeah, she really supported me a lot of time on Facebook messenger. Like, this is how you do that.This is, you know, this is what you should do, a lot of great advice. So, I'm Immensely grateful for not only Stacy but the whole group too on getting through stuff like that.Rob: Good, andMelissa: something to say about having a like mind, like just encouraging people to do it at the same time. So when you do something like that, or have something like that happen, then you do have people alongside of you and you can figure it out.Rob: And some of you guys not know the group he's talking about. We actually have Flipper University. We have a core members, a members group Flipping For Profit, that everybody who goes through our university, we have a free members only group, and that's what he's talking about. We have close to a thousand people in there. Like-minded people that do exactly this, [00:17:00] they're flippers. So it's really, really cool just to be able to interact and I'm sure there's other groups out there like this, guys. Well, ours, isn't the only one, but get involved in one, if you can. That's, that's one of those things is being around like-minded people who can help you. You know, we have all different stages in our group, people that are just starting, and then professional flippers, like us, that are doing it full time. So you have great advice from everybody, which is awesome.Melissa: Yeah, so let us know what is one of your more memorable flips aside from maybe that cooktop?Adam: Let me see. More memorable flips. I think you guys have asked me this question before, too. I don't know that this is a great one for me, because everything seems so boring. You know, it's all like,Rob: Yeah, maybe a high profit, one of your highest profit flips. That, I mean, that's what sticks out to me when I think about stuff.Adam: Well, I think you guys both know about this one, but, one of, one of a more recent one that was really fun is I picked up a cooktop for a hundred dollars on a [00:18:00] Sunday afternoon. And it was in great shape, hardly had any use. I, I brought it home, wiped it down, took my 12 photos, posted it on eBay. It sold the next morning for $1,300. I shipped it out like two days later. So like turning around $1,200. Well, it wasn't all $1,200 profit, but turning that around, within like a couple of days, it was pretty amazing. That was one of my fastest flips I've ever seen.Rob: I love it. That is a great one. And it is memorable that when you make those flips, yeah. You're, you're proud of yourself. I mean, you found a good deal you got it on, you gave somebody else a really good deal for the cooktop. So, no, that's awesome. I love it. And yeah, cooktops, are they're a lot of fun you, if you know what you're doing, and you find those right cooktops to flip, you can make some serious, serious money as Adam's showing us right now, for sure.Melissa: If you had to have, like, if you wanted to give a tip or two, like for somebody just getting started in this, like what would be like one thing that you maybe wish you would've known when you first started that like, [00:19:00] okay that you would give to somebody?Adam: A good tip, I think it just, you know, find the reseller community online, whether that be Flipper University and the group that we're in or whatever it is. There's so many resources out there available for free to get you going. That would be my first bit of advice, beyond the standard of, you know, start with stuff that's in your house and that will help you learn the process of eBay or whatever platform you're using to sell on. And it's low, really low risk. And then, but finding that online community of support. It is priceless. It's gonna, they're going to help you through everything from listing to shipping, to dealing with difficult customers or difficult returns and, all of that stuff. So, that would be my, if someone's serious about it and really wants to do it, it's find the community.Melissa: Awesome.Rob: That is great advice because it is, it's not, you're not doing this alone. And you've learned that. When you have people around you who are there to [00:20:00] build you up, when you're having that bad day of, hey I had a return or even a bad week of I had a couple returns and I'm trying to figure out what's the best, what's the next step in these returns, you have those people around you that are building you up and helping you stay focused and work through these situations. So you get past them, you get through them and then you just can keep going on. So a community is a huge thing and that's really cool that you've seen that.Because it does, it helps a ton in this business, if you have the like-minded people around you. For sure. So a great, great tip. Great advice for sure.Melissa: I'm not sure if we asked this though, before, what are your major platforms that you're selling on?Adam: Pretty much, I would say 90% on eBay. I do sell a little locally off of Facebook Marketplace so or OfferUp, and that's mostly items I don't want to ship, or it's just easier to flip locally. So yeah, 90, 90%, 95% on eBay.Melissa: Yeah. That's about ours, same.Rob: Awesome, same as us. Yeah. eBay's our main go just because of the people that it reaches, that's it. And then local. So awesome. Well, [00:21:00] Adam, thank you so much for jumping on here and giving us all this great information. You are, you know, you are, you're a year into it, but you have so much wisdom and knowledge in that year.I'm super excited to watch your, your journey unfold, and all the flips that you're gonna make in the next year. So. Congratulations. Thank you so much for, just giving, everybody, some great, great tips and some great advice on how to, how to further their reselling business. So thank you, thank you.Melissa: Thank you.Adam: Thanks Rob and Melissa. It was great to be on. Thanks for all you've done for me too.Rob: Of course, of course. All right. Have a great day, Adam. Thank you so much.Yup. Thanks guys. Bye.

About AdamAdam Zimman is a start-up Advisor providing guidance on leadership, platform architecture, product marketing, and GTM strategy. He has over 20 years of experience working in a variety of roles from software engineering to technical sales. He has worked in both enterprise and consumer companies such as VMware, EMC, GitHub, and LaunchDarkly. Adam is driven by a passion for inclusive leadership and solving problems with technology. As an Advisor he works with a number of startups and nonprofits. His perspective on life has been shaped by a background in Physics and Visual Art, an ongoing adventure as a husband and father, and a childhood career as a fire juggler.Links:Twitter: https://twitter.com/azimman TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at VMware. Let's be honest—the past year has been far from easy. Due to, well, everything. It caused us to rush cloud migrations and digital transformation, which of course means long hours refactoring your apps, surprises on your cloud bill, misconfigurations and headache for everyone trying manage disparate and fractured cloud environments. VMware has an answer for this. With VMware multi-cloud solutions, organizations have the choice, speed, and control to migrate and optimizeapplications seamlessly without recoding, take the fastest path to modern infrastructure, and operate consistently across the data center, the edge, and any cloud. I urge to take a look at vmware.com/go/multicloud. You know my opinions on multi cloud by now, but there's a lot of stuff in here that works on any cloud. But don't take it from me thats: VMware.com/go/multicloud and my thanks to them again for sponsoring my ridiculous nonsense.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and periodically I like to talk to people about different aspects of the industry. One that I think is interesting that doesn't get spoken about a lot directly is the idea of leadership. My guest today is Adam Zimman, who's a startup advisor providing guidance on—as mentioned—leadership, platform architecture, Product Marketing, and GTM Strategy—GTM, of course, standing for go-to-market. Who goes to market? That's right, little piggies. Adam, thank you for joining me.Adam: Thank you, Corey. It's a pleasure to be here.Corey: I imagine that you usually don't advise your clients to call their GTM execs, little piggies?Adam: Well, I mean, I guess it depends. You know, if you're actually a bacon manufacturer then that might be actually a reasonable thing to do.Corey: Yeah, that's a level of investment in the product that you usually don't see in most environments, but we take what we can get. So, snark and cynicism aside, what is it you do?Adam: Ultimately, I look for ways in which I can add value. And I've had the privilege in my career to be exposed to a lot of amazing companies, and I look for ways to be able to take the lessons that I've learned, mainly through mistakes and failure, and be able to translate those into success for others.Corey: Most recently, you were at LaunchDarkly for a while, taking a number of different VP roles. While you were there we spoke, back in 2017, briefly while you were in that environment. And in fact, my first guest on the show was one of the folks on your team, Heidi Waterhouse, who has been back at least once since then, and hopefully more than that. But it's been an interesting ride there. Before that you were at places like GitHub—or JIF-ub as I insist on pronouncing it—EMC-slash-VMware—where does one start and the other stop? Hard to say, it's sort of a giant corporate shell game—but you've spent a lot of time in large companies and small ones as well, and now you're effectively hanging out your shingle as a strategic advisor.Adam: This is true. I mean, I think that one of the things that I've found is that doesn't really matter what size of company you're at; you're going to find new and interesting challenges, and you really don't have to look that hard. And so one of the things that I found consistently, and I would say that this was most pointedly phrased for me by Emily Freeman in the context of, “DevOps is this amazing thing of people, process, and technology. And the reality is, is the only one that's complicated is the people.” And oddly enough, small companies, you still got people; big companies, you still got people. So, therein lies some of the challenges.Corey: And people are inherently non-deterministic; you never know what you're going to get by applying the same input, even to the same person just separated out by time. It's a challenge, and the problem that I see across the industry is that very often, you'll have a team of engineers and you'll pick the best and brightest one of those engineers, and, “Congratulations, you manage the team now.” Now, management's inherently orthogonal skill, and what you've simultaneously done is gotten rid of a great engineer and introduced a terrible manager. And that's through no fault of this person's own. But when I started managing teams, I got surprisingly far by just doing the exact opposite of all the stuff that my previous terrible bosses have done.And that works really well right up until it doesn't in a variety of probably fairly easily predictable ways. And the challenge that I'm seeing is that there is no book on how to do these things. If you want to climb an engineering ladder, great; there's a bunch of very qualified people who will tell you how to go from wherever you are technically, to where you want to go, and what you have to demonstrate, and what you have to do. Leadership is squishy, in that sense. At least it always has been to me.Adam: The interesting part that I would challenge you a little bit on is that there are thousands of interesting books on leadership, even smaller subsection on management specifically. I think one of the challenges there is that they're not well circulated within tech as an industry. I think that there are a few that people come back to, like Andy Grove's book on his experience building Intel. There are a lot of books out there that have done a lot for talking about how to manage people and how to think about what are the specific tactical things that you do. It's having one-on-ones, it's having meetings with clear agendas, it's being able to look for ways to set expectations with your organization.I think one of the challenges that I see pretty consistently, is the fact that that effort to be able to go out and find that information or to learn those skills is something that is put on to, as you said, this individual who is coming to management through punishment. They've been extraordinarily successful and now you will punish them by putting them in a role where they can no longer do all the things that they enjoyed, that made them successful. And I think that you see time and time again, where organizations put people in these roles, but they don't do anything to either prepare them for it or do anything to continue that notion of professional development or training for those individuals once they're in those roles.Corey: There are a lot of books out there for any discipline under the sun; some are good, some are terrible, most are somewhere in the middle of the road law of averages winds up working out. I think a key difference, on some level, is I can take to Twitter, or a forum, or something like that, and complain about software; the computer isn't doing the thing I think the computer should be doing. And that's great. I can't very well go and complain about managerial issues while actively having a team and not find myself no longer having managerial issues, if you catch my meaning. It's hard to find communities around this stuff.Adam: I think that you're right. And I think that this is one of those things where not only that, but I think that we also in tech have predominantly taken a very hierarchical structure to the way that we think about management and leadership, to the sense where oftentimes, it is not only discouraged but downright forbidden for an individual contributor to challenge their manager if they want to continue to have gainful employment. And I think that this is a cultural thing that, you know, it's funny; I know that you recently did an episode with John Allspaw and were talking about incident remediation. And I think that one of the things that I've always tried to do as a manager, as a leader, is think about opportunities for being able to do that type of incident response, for people. If you have a person that leaves, whether that is forced attrition, whether that is voluntary attrition, whether that is something that you wanted to happen, something that you didn't want to happen, what are you doing from a perspective of kind of a post-incident assessment to learn from that? And I think that the next level that is, how do you do it so that you actually, in some way, incorporate that for the individual that's actually leaving. Because ideally, they're learning from that experience, as well.Corey: Back when I was a generally terrible employee, I decided at some point, I was tired of dealing with computer problems and wanted to deal with people problems instead. Now, let's be clear, I found a path to do that in a very different direction than I expected at the time, but at the time, it was, “Great. I'm going to go ahead and become a manager of a team.” And I talked to a number of folks about all right, what is the path to go from decent technical engineer—I was a senior SRE type at most of these places—into management. And not just talking to people at the companies I was at, but talking to people in the larger community, and every engineering manager who I respected and talked to about, it always seemed like they got this lucky break at just the right time and that made them a manager for the first time.And once you have a track record of having managed people, then you're in. You can go back and forth between IC and management roles. But, “Well, you've never managed people before, so we're not going to take a chance on you to manage people.” The way that I did it, honestly, was I—a few times—I wound up joining startups where I was effectively the only ops person; we suddenly started scaling and having fun problems, and well, I did negotiate for that director title, so all right, I have teams now. I was more of a team lead than most things, in some cases.But it led to a really pretty interesting evolution in how I approach these things. I find now that the right answer is for me not to manage people at all because what I fundamentally do here at The Duckbill Group is basically become the loud, obnoxious center of attention. And I think that what managers need to do is showcase their people instead. And those two things, at least in my view, are opposed. And it's very challenging to do both of them, let alone well. For me at least, I tend to back away from the management side of things almost entirely and abdicate the role. Which is great. People self-manage, right?Adam: Well, I mean, I think that there are individuals who definitely will take—have the ability to self-organize and self-manage to a degree. I think that the challenge that you run into is, as the organization scales, as the nature of their role tends to change with that scaling organization, it becomes more challenging for them to navigate through those changes. A great example would be, I have had the pleasure and the privilege a number of times in my career of managing extraordinarily senior individuals; these are individuals who, to your point, don't need a whole lot of care and feeding. But what they do sometimes need is they need someone who is able to be in rooms that they're not in, whether that's from a higher-level leadership meeting understanding larger organizational goals, or they need someone that's going to check them; they need someone that they can trust, someone that they can bounce their ideas off of to know is this something that's going to be perceived value or something that's going to actually take me in the wrong direction, or somebody that's, kind of like, paying attention to the work product that they're doing and giving them some coaching, whether that's cheerleading or whether that's connecting of saying, “Hey, there's also this other person you should talk to.” Those types of things are really valuable for those individuals who are, to your point, a little bit more self-sufficient.Corey: On some level, I ran into this trap a lot, and having over drinks conversations with a bunch of people who went on similar paths, it's blindingly obvious that it's a dumb move in hindsight, but an awful lot of us did it, where we're sitting there as engineers with the belief of, “Ah, if I can make my manager—or beyond, several skip-levels up—look incredibly foolish in the middle of a large meeting, they will inherently see the value of what I have to say and will thus elevate me to management.” As it turns out, they elevate you to customer because you're not working there anymore, in many cases. And when I talk to people about this, it usually has that lightbulb coming on moment of as soon as you hear it, of course, it is blindingly obvious that you aren't going to sarcastically obnoxious your way into being management. Instead, the path there—in hindsight, also blindly obvious—is act as if: act managerial; help to effectively carry on your manager's message to the rest of the team, and when you have reservations or whatnot, talk to them in private rather than calling them out. And it's the obvious stuff of who gets promoted to management? Well, the people that look managerial. And that is what that looks like, in many respects.Adam: And this is one of the reasons why, when I talk about management I like to separate the notion of management from leadership. Because I think that anyone can be a leader. You don't actually have to be the administrative manager of an individual to be a leader to them.Corey: I saw a great poster once when I was younger. “Leaders are like eagles. We don't have either of them here.”Adam: [sigh]. Yeah, yeah. Ugh. I do miss good motivational posters.Corey: Oh, yeah.Adam: You know, I think that there's some truth to it. I think that finding people who are genuinely invested in being able to enable the success of others—which is how I define leadership—is challenging. I think that, especially in rather capitalistic-type industry like we're in, there is a lot of measurement of people's success by their own personal achievements and by their ability to beat their own drum. And I think that it's something that is, frankly, a failing of our industry, where we don't do a better job of encouraging folks, and rewarding folks that actually look out for others and enable the success of others. Because I think that's something that is—ultimately you think about how you build strong teams, and it's not about getting a bunch of individuals who can do amazing things individually. It's about getting individuals who are capable of working together and being able to do more than they would be able to if they were simply working individually.Corey: Do you ever find that people are chasing management in many respects because they think that it's something very different than what it is, and then find themselves in situations where well, I'm the dog that caught the car that I was chasing and only now do I realize that I have no idea how to drive the thing?Adam: Oh, absolutely. So, this is something that has been interesting me a lot recently, in the sense that I think we as an industry also do a very poor job of measuring management, measuring leadership. We give a lot of power to managers through performance reviews to measure their individual contributors, but there are very few companies who actually efficiently do things like 360 reviews, which has always confused me because I think that implies that you're getting feedback from all around you, as opposed to what you really want is you want feedback pointed back at you, which would be 180. But maybe that's just—Corey: Let's be clear, that was also pioneered by the German [Wehrmacht 00:13:48] in World War II, which is yeah, basically how some people I've worked with do tend to manage.Adam: Yeah. I think that if we can think about how do we measure the success of a manager, is it simply a function of the output of their team, or are there other efficiency metrics that you should be looking at? Very obvious one is how efficient is a manager from a perspective of the utilization of their resources? And when I think about that, I think about are they actually able to effectively hire? Are they able to effectively retain the people that they hire?What does it look like for the people on their organization from a promotion perspective in terms of skill growth? Do they become more valuable over time? Those are ways in which we can think about how we measure the manager, potentially, directly. And then there's indirect things like what's the qualitative aspect of those individuals that work for them? Are they people who are enjoying the work that they're doing?Are they motivated to continue to work towards the company's vision and mission, to be able to actually make their manager look good, but also make the company successful?Corey: A challenge, too, because I've seen this myself is, all right, you're not elevated to manager. Congratulations. It's not really a promotion. It's a lateral move. However, a lot of companies don't treat it that way.They don't compensate it that way, et cetera. And oh, okay, management, it turns out is not for me. There's no real good way to say, “I'm going back to being an IC,” especially at the same company, without it being perceived by many—rightly or wrongly—as a demotion or a failure.Adam: This question of, like, motivation to people, why do they want to go into management? I think that oftentimes this is misplaced. A lot of times the number one motivation that I've heard has nothing to do with wanting to actually help people or solve people problems, as you said earlier; it has to do with I want a bigger paycheck, I want more seniority, I want more responsibility, and therefore the only path available to me is management. In fact, many career ladders at organizations require an individual contributor to go to a management position before they can become a principal or a staff-level engineer, which is nonsense. First of all, why would you torture the individual to do something that is so completely and utterly outside of where their interests are? Secondly, why would you just decimate your lower-level individual contributors, your newer individual contributors by having someone who is completely non-inclined towards management be responsible for them? Oh.Corey: Oh, yeah. Used to be your peer; now they manage you, and great. I think people underestimate exactly how broad the blast radius of a manager is.Adam: Yeah. Talk to anyone, and they'll be more than happy to tell you the worst manager that they've ever had. At the same time, they'll also probably be able to tell you the best manager they've ever had.Corey: Oh, yeah. I called both of those out—only one the one of those by name, by the way—in conference talks that I've had because it's—yeah, you can probably guess which one I would call out and which one I would not name publicly—yeah—Adam: It depends on the conference, I guess. But yeah.Corey: Oh, yeah, absolutely. If it was you-know-what-your-problem-is con, yeah, it went super well.Adam: [laugh].Corey: It was fun. And management, especially in the current era is getting interesting, as we're seeing the heating up of the market in a bunch of different ways. And I understand, to be clear, that Twitter is not a perfect microcosm of the industry, but there's a recurring theme that I'm seeing among a number of engineering types that seemed to get—and again, I don't want to get letters for this, so if I misstate it, audience, please go ahead and be kind—but there seems to be a certain thread running through engineering communities that the purpose of a company is to provide a utopian work environment for its staff. Now, as someone who runs a company myself, yeah, I absolutely want to provide the kind of working environment I wish I'd had in a bunch of different environments. And that's not going to work for everyone, but that's okay.But fundamentally we're here to make money, and ideally, enough monies that we can keep the lights on. And that does mean that, however, we want to treat our staff that has to be subordinate to can we continue as a going concern? So yeah, it turns out, we can't—sustainably—outbid Netflix on every hire that we make and we aren't able to wind up having three catered meals a day as a full remote company delivered to everyone's house. Now, I'd like to, in a world where money flows like water, but it doesn't. For better or worse, there are constraints, and constraints shape us.But there's a thread that I'm starting to see of… I hesitate to call it entitlement, but it trends slightly toward the direction of folks who are in tech, and in some ways seem very far removed from business realities—now, let's be clear in the FAANG world, yeah, it's pretty attenuated. And in startup land where well, we're the VC backed, so we're losing money by the billion but we're making it up in volume. Great. That is not necessarily what I'm talking about here. I'm seeing a thread where, oh, engineers are clearly the smartest people in any company, which means that every other department should defer to them. I disagree with that position.Adam: I want to follow that thread a little bit with regards to engineers. So, I've worked as a software developer—Corey: My condolences.Adam: Yeah. I've worked as a technical salesperson. I've had the opportunity to work in pretty much every department with the exceptions of HR and finance. So, that has been part of my career of jack of all trades, master of none, but it has given me some interesting insights in terms of the value that different organizations, different individuals, bring to a company. And I think that—one of the things that I will say is that for the longest time, in large organizations, especially non-tech industry organizations, the engineer or the developer was at the same expectations or the role as someone in the janitorial staff.It was basically, “You're part of the plumbing. You just do the things so that the tech just works, and we're going to have the other business folks that are more responsible for actually making decisions that are going to make our business money.” The quintessential example is someone like Kraft Foods or someone like John Deere, right, where you're building tractors; for the longest time, the guy who ran the website wasn't going to be the guy who was going to make or break John Deere's quarterly earnings. Now, you've got tractors that literally are more computers than they are mechanical devices and so you suddenly have this change in dynamic with regards to the importance of that developer. But I think that something that's interesting, also, is that those other people who worked at the company didn't go away.They're still there; they're still important. In fact, they're still oftentimes making the buying decisions on behalf of the developers. The developers aren't the ones that are making those choices. And so you need to figure out, how do you actually make the technology choices and the technology outcomes accessible to individuals that are in roles that were, historically, had nothing to do with tech.This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build.With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: I've always been a big believer in the idea that if you're going to transition into a new field, be it into tech, out of tech, et cetera, great. In almost every case, you should find ways to do that laterally. I think that this idea that, oh, you're going to go ahead and just start over with an entry-level job after you've been in a field for five years—no. Find the position that's halfway between where you are and where you think you want to go next and start getting exposure there. In time, it's those niches that add value that distinguish you from other folks.It turns out that they don't generally want to hire someone in almost any role that comes from Central Casting, where it's alright, give me a standard MBA with the following pedigree and drop them in as my new executive, whatever. No. They want to see things like industry experience; they want to see things that distinguish folks, and having experience in industries that are not traditionally, purely what this role is, is super helpful in a lot of different ways. What I do pretty clearly blends finance and tech; that goes reasonably well. Increasingly it starts to blend media, which is something I don't pretend to understand. But here we are, he said into the microphone.Adam: Yeah. Well, as long as you're not starting the next Fox News, I'm fine with that.Corey: No, no. Generally not.Adam: Okay, fair enough. But I think that you're right. This is one of the things where, trailing back, we've throughout this conversation to the notion of leadership, this is something that I found extraordinarily rewarding and empowering that I've done with individuals that I've brought into new organizations, either through initial conversations during an interview process, or during, as part of their onboarding, is I sit down, and I actually talk to them about what are their plans? What are their expectations? What are their goals, not only for the next 30, 60, 90 days in this role that we're talking about but what are they thinking about from a perspective of what do they want to do in the next year? In the next three years? Five years? Ten years? What are those checkpoints of what do you want to do in this role? What do you want to do at this company? What do you want to do with your career? Like, where do you see it headed?And it doesn't mean that you're writing this in stone, or that I'm going to hold you to it, but I think that one of those things that's really empowering for a leader is to be able to help those individuals find those connective threads that tie one position to the next and help them get there. If they're somebody who is saying, “Hey, look, I'm currently a developer, but I really wish that I could give more talks.” Okay, well, that's great for me to know. Let's put you on some projects that maybe actually would result in great content for a talk that you could give at a conference. And then we'll figure out, how do we work with the marketing department to be able to help you bring that to fruition?There's a lot of ways to be able to leverage this experience that you have as a leader, as a manager, to an individual who's coming up in their career and saying, “Hey, look. This is how some more ancillary things are connected.” And being able to bring those back to them.Corey: I really wish, on some level, that there was a more defined path toward a lot of these things, where the stuff is explained to folks. So often, I had terrible managers that, in hindsight, weren't that terrible. Because I didn't understand where the role started and stopped, I tended to view the role of the manager is there to protect the team. The end. And be our advocate in the organization, and get us the thing that we want, and what do we want? Comfy chairs.And it turns out that isn't ever how it really works. If I had to define management, it would basically be, balancing competing priorities more than it is almost anything else. And counterintuitively, the higher you rise in an organization, the more responsibility you have, and the less you can actually directly do. Everything you do drives influence. And that's it. That's how it distills down.Adam: You talk about the engineer that wants to move into management role because that's how they see their career progressing. This is a close corollary to the engineer that wants to move into a product management role because they want to have greater oversight into the decisions that are being made about what's getting built. And what you come to realize, for any engineer who successfully made that transition, is it's really complicated and difficult to be able to have that mental switch take place between this is how I'm going to build it versus this is the priority of what needs to get built next. And all too often you see engineers that land in product management roles that are dictating how something should be built, and suddenly the engineers are just like, “No, I have no respect for you. Because that's not your job.”And likewise, in a management role, oftentimes people view that as an opportunity for them to make all the choices, make all the decisions, and suddenly lose sight of the fact that they used to be on the other side of that outcome themselves, and were disappointed when they weren't included in some way, shape or form, or their priorities weren't taken into consideration.Corey: As you look at your own career, what is the worst job experience you've ever had? Or the worst job you've ever had? Or the worst boss you've ever had? That's always a good one to do.Adam: [laugh].Corey: Pick a superlative and not the good kind. Hit me.Adam: Yeah, no, I mean, look, I think that probably the worst… experience that I ever had with a manager, with a boss, was actually when I was first a software developer. And my manager would occasionally just come up behind me and just stand and watch me code. And we're not talking about peer programming, where it was just like, we're working together. No, it was, literally would come up, stand behind me on my shoulder, and just stand there. Not saying anything; just watching me write Java code. And that was probably the most disconcerting experience that I've ever had in a job ever. I lasted about six months and then I was just like, “I need to move on to something else.”Corey: It turns out one of my failure modes was that I was great for the first three months in new ops roles because things were invariably a fire, and—Adam: [laugh].Corey: —I know how to solve those things. And then it becomes a maintenance role, and I'm bad at that. For longest time, I thought I was just a crap employee. And I am, but for different reasons. Instead, though, for me, it turned into a, I need to find the thing that I'm good at and embrace that. And I have to say, it was not being, basically, a cloud comedian on Twitter where my primary means of communication is shitposting. But you know, here we are, and this is how we've gotten there.Adam: I mean, know your strengths, man. Know your strengths.Corey: Yeah, lean into it. I mean, you went to college in Maine; you know what it's like there. It's dark and cold nine months out of the year, so all we do is sit inside and develop personality disorders. And well, here we are.Adam: Well, hey, I mean, I took a break from tech after that first job in software development and I actually went back and worked for a guy that I met while I was in school, and I worked for him, he was a general contractor. So, I have an appreciation for Maine winters in a way that I never gained as a privileged college student, when I was actually digging snow out of ditches to be able to pour concrete at six in the morning and then later in the day, I got to go up and use 80-pound weight shingles to reshingle the roof in 20-degree weather. So, it was an eye-opening experience. But I'll tell you, I learned pretty much everything that I know about how to build infrastructure from that eight months that I spent doing everything from framing, ditch-digging, to electrical, and plumbing, and roofing.Corey: Kind of fun how often is that we wind up trying other things. And this is part of it, too. As much fun as it is to complain about various jobs and whatnot that we have, let's be very clear here for a minute that I'm not dealing with hot tar, being paid seven bucks an hour. There are advantages to the [unintelligible 00:28:08] jobs I have.Adam: I mean, that was a number of years ago, but I still got ten bucks an hour.Corey: My first job at the University of Maine call center working in tech, in those days, I think I was being paid something like $5.35 an hour. To answer phones, which again, not that hard of a job. I made a lot more money a couple years later when I moved to construction. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend any of those things for me these days, but it was instructive.Adam: But at the same time, I would argue that you also have benefited from those experiences in the way that you approach the things that you do now. And I think that's one of the things that I've tried to bring forward in my career is look for those opportunities to make those connections, and understand the value of those experiences, and be able to help to enable other people because I've had those experiences.Corey: To me at least, the answer is to turn whatever you've done or whatever happened to you into some form of empathy. The idea of well, I had to struggle coming up, so you should, too. Let's instead focus on making it better for people who follow us. Send the elevator back down, as it were.Adam: I mean, I think that's great advice, and I think that it's something that's done far too infrequently. One of the things that I've noticed is that that aspect, unless somebody has actually been through the experience where somebody has done that for them, it is oftentimes something that is a lot harder for people to see. This goes to your earlier statement around the expectations that maybe are changing, and they're not such great ways with regards to what people are expecting from companies, what people are expecting from managers. I think that there is a distinct lack of expectation setting that takes place at companies in terms of what is the role of the company, what is the role of an employee, and how can those two come together to still have a positive interaction, but aren't overstepping on either side? Because that's really where you get into problems. That's where all of a sudden you have these companies that are looking to fill the role of, I will take care of all aspects of your life, when in reality that's not a very healthy relationship for an individual to have with a company.Corey: So, I want to thank you for coming and speak to me. What are you up to these days, and where can people find you? And why should people find you?Adam: Well, I don't know that anybody should find me.Corey: “I hope this email finds you never. I hope you're free.”Adam: Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, I would love to find folks that I can add value to and help out. It's easy enough to find me on Twitter. It's just @-A-Z-I-M-M-A-N—azimman. And they're welcome to reach out to me there. My DMs are open—much to my displeasure sometimes—but happy to help people who are looking for help. I'm particularly interested in spending my time with those individuals who maybe are coming from underrepresented backgrounds in tech and looking for ways to be able to either get into tech or to move up within leadership roles in tech.But I'm spending a lot of my time doing a lot of coaching, doing a lot of advising for small startups, and then also just as a small side project have been working pretty extensively with James Governor and a woman by the name of Kim Harrison on this little thing called Progressive Delivery, which is, as far as we're concerned, it is the next iteration of the software development lifecycle that we've written about and talked about pretty extensively. James and Kim and I are working on a book together to be able to capture all those ideas and bring them and coalesce them for people, to make more consumable. But ultimately, we're trying to say, “Hey, look. The way that we've done things leading up till now, moving from waterfall to agile to continuous delivery into what's next?” And look at some of the market conditions that have changed. A lot of stuff that you talk about. I think that you would be the first to point out how things have changed since the launch of AWS.Corey: Oh, yes. It's more confusing now.Adam: Oh, way more confusing. And the ways in which people consume cloud-based services has radically changed. And so I think that the way that we are building software and the way that we're consuming software is something that we need to put some serious thought into. And the players that are—you know, as I spoke about earlier on this talk with you—are different. It's no longer just your developers that care about your AWS choices or care about the cloud service choices that you're making.You've got other individuals, whether it's the finance side you focus on or thinking about it from the perspective of the marketing team, or the HR team that's thinking about which cloud service HRIS are they going to use. There's a lot of people that need to be party to those choices that you're making and how you build out your company stack, as it were. And the Progressive Delivery model looks to take into consideration that changing and evolving group of people.Corey: And we will, of course, have links to that in the [show notes 00:32:46]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.Adam: Corey, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.Corey: Adam Zimman, startup advisor, and oh, so much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a scathing comment telling me why you as an engineer are best suited to be the manager of everything.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

01:25 - Teaching, Learning, and Education 06:16 - Becoming a Data Scientist * Opportunities to Create New Knowledge * Data Science Science 19:36 - Solving Bias in Data Science * Weapons of Math Destruction (https://weaponsofmathdestructionbook.com/) 23:36 - Recommendations for Aspiring Data Scientists * Hire a Career Coach * Creating and Maintaining a Portfolio * Make a Rosetta Stone * Make a Cheat Sheet * Write an Article on a Piece of Software You Dislike * A Few Times, I've Broken Pandas (https://towardsdatascience.com/a-few-times-i-managed-to-broke-pandas-d3604d43708c?gi=7c2404551ab3) * Kyle Kingsbury Posts (https://aphyr.com/) * Contribute to Another Project * Post On Project Contribution (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-6800974518308478976-4YqK) * Spend $$$/Invest on Transition * Bet On Yourself 45:36 - Impostor Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) * Immunity Boosts * Community * Know Your Baseline * Clance Impostor Phenomenon Test (http://impostortest.nickol.as/) * Dr. Pauline Rose Clance (https://paulineroseclance.com/) * The Imposter Phenomenon: An Internal Barrier To Empowerment and Achievement by Pauline Rose Clance and Maureen Ann O'Toole (https://paulineroseclance.com/pdf/ip_internal_barrier_to_empwrmnt_and_achv.pdf) * Disseminate Knowledge * Confidence Leads to Confidence * Dunning-Kruger Effect (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/dunning-kruger-effect) * Johari Window (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window) Reflections: Mae: Checking out the metrics resources on Impostor Syndrome listed above. Casey: Writing about software in a positive, constructive tone. Mando: Investing in yourself. from:sheaserrano bet on yourself (https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3Asheaserrano%20bet%20on%20yourself&src=typed_query&f=live) Adam: Talking about career, data science, and programming in a non-technical way. Also, Twitter searches for book names! This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDO: Good afternoon, everyone! Welcome to Greater Than Code. This is Episode number 241. I'm Mando Escamilla and I'm here with my friend, Mae Beale. MANDO: Hi, there! And I am also here with Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I am Casey! And we're all here with Adam Ross Nelson, our guest today. Welcome, Adam. ADAM: Hi, everyone! Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here. CASEY: Since 2020, Adam is a consultant who provides research, data science, machine learning, and data governance services. Previously, he was the inaugural data scientist at The Common Application which provides undergraduate college application platforms for institutions around the world. He holds a PhD from The University of Wisconsin: Madison in Educational Leadership & Policy Analysis. Adam is also formerly an attorney with a history of working in higher education, teaching all ages, and educational administration. He is passionate about connecting with other data professionals in-person and online. For more information and background look for his insights by connecting with Adam on LinkedIn, Medium, and other online platforms. We are lucky we have him here today. So Adam, what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? ADAM: I spent so much time thinking about this question, I really wasn't sure what to say. I hadn't thought about my superpower in a serious way in a very long time and I was tempted to go whimsy with this, but I got input from my crowd and my tribe and where I landed was teaching, learning, and education. You might look at my background with a PhD in education, leadership, and policy analysis, all of my work in education administration, higher education administration, and teaching and just conclude that was how I acquired the superpower. But I think that superpower goes back much further and much deeper. So when I was a kid, I was badly dyslexic. Imagine going through life and you can't even tell the difference between a lowercase B and a lowercase D. Indistinguishable to me. Also, I had trouble with left and right. I didn't know if someone told me turn left here, I'd be lucky to go – I had a 50/50 chance of going in the right direction, basically. Lowercase P and Q were difficult. For this podcast, the greater than sign, I died in the math unit, or I could have died in the math unit when we were learning greater than, or less than. Well, and then another one was capital E and the number 3, couldn't tell a difference. Capital E and number 3. I slowly developed mnemonics in order to learn these things. So for me, the greater than, less than pneumonic is, I don't know if you ever think about it, but think of the greater than, or less than sign as an alligator and it's hungry. So it's always going to eat the bigger number. [laughs] It's always going to eat the bigger quantity. So once I figured that mnemonic out and a bunch of other mnemonics, I started doing a little bit better. My high school principal told my parents that I would be lucky to graduate high school and there's all kinds. We can unpack that for days, but. MANDO: Yeah. ADAM: Right? Like what kind of high school principal says that to anybody, which resonates with me now in hindsight, because everything we know about student learning, the two most influential factors on a student's ability to learn are two things. One, teacher effectiveness and number two, principal leadership. Scholarship always bears out. MAE: Whoa. ADAM: Yeah. So the principal told my family that and also, my household growing up, I was an only child. We were a very poor household; low income was an understatement. So my disadvantages aside, learning and teaching myself was basically all I had. I was the kid who grew up in this neighborhood, I had some friends in the neighborhood, and I was always exploring adjacent areas of the neighborhoods. I was in a semi-rural area. So there were wooded areas, there were some streams, some rivers, some lakes and I was always the kid that found something new. I found a new trail, a new street, a new whatever and I would run back to my neighborhood and I'd be like, “Hey everybody, I just found something. Look what I found, follow me and I will show you also. I will show you the way and I'll show you how cool that is.” MAE: Aw. ADAM: I love this thinking. [laughs] MAE: I love that! CASEY: Sharing. ADAM: I'm glad because when I'm in the classroom, when I'm teaching – I do a lot of corporate training now, too. When I'm either teaching in a traditional university classroom, or in corporate setting, that is me reliving my childhood playtime. It's like, “Hey everybody, look at this cool thing that I have to show you and now I'm going to show it to you, also.” So teaching, learning, and education is my superpower and in one way, that's manifested. When I finished school, I finished my PhD at 37. I wasn't 40 years old yet, if you count kindergarten had been in school for 23 years. Over half of my life, not half of my adult life, half of my entire life I was in school [chuckles] and now that I'm rounding 41—that was last week, I turned 41. Now that I'm rounding 41 – MAE: Happy birthday! ADAM: Thank you so much. Now that I'm rounding 41, I'm finally a little more than half of my life not in school. MANDO: Congrats, man. That's an accomplishment. [laughs] So I'm curious to know how you transitioned from that academic world into being a data scientist proper, like what got you to that point? What sets you down that path? Just that whole story. I think that'd be super interesting to talk about and dig into. ADAM: Sure. I think context really matters; what was going on in the data science field at the time I finished the PhD. I finished that PhD in 2017. So in 2017, that was that the apex of – well, I don't know if it was, or maybe we're now at the apex. I don't know exactly where the apex was, or is, or will be, but there was a lot of excitement around data science as a field and as a career in about 3, or 4 years ago. MANDO: For sure. ADAM: So when I was finishing the PhD, I had the opportunity to tech up in my PhD program and gain a lot of the skills that others might have gained via other paths through more traditional computer science degrees, economics degrees, or bootcamps, or both. And then I was also in a position where I was probably—and this is common for folks with a PhD—probably one of the handful of people in the world who were a subject matter expert in a particular topic, but also, I had the technical skills to be a data scientist. So there was an organization, The Common Application from the introduction, that was looking for a data scientist who needed domain knowledge in the area that I had my PhD and that's what a PhD does for you is it gives you this really intense level of knowledge in a really small area [chuckles] and then the technical skills. That's how I transitioned into being a data scientist. I think in general, that is the template for many folks who have become a data scientist. Especially if you go back 3, or 4, or 5, or 6 years ago, before formal data science training programs started popping up and even before, and then I think some of the earliest bootcamps for data science were about 10 years ago. At least the most widely popular ones were about 10 years ago to be clear. And then there's another view that that's just when we started calling it data science because the skills for – all of the technologies and analytical techniques we're using, not all of them, many of them have been around for decades. So that's important to keep in mind. So I think to answer your question, I was in the right place at the right time, there was a little bit of luck involved, and I always try and hold myself from fully giving all the credit away to luck because that's something. Well, maybe we'll talk about it later when it comes to imposter syndrome, that's one of the symptoms, so to speak, of imposter syndrome is giving credit for your success away to luck while you credit the success of others to skill, or ability. But let me talk about that template. So the template is many data scientists become a data scientists with this three-step process. One, you establish yourself as an expert in your current role and by establishing yourself as an expert, you're the top expert, or one of very, very few people who are very, very skilled in that area. Then you start tackling business problems with statistics, machine learning, and artificial intelligence. You might not be called a data scientist yet, but by this point, you're already operating as a data scientist and then eventually, you be the data scientist, you become the data scientist. If it is a career path for you, you'll potentially change roles into a role that's formerly called, specifically called data science. But one of the articles I wrote recently on Medium talks about the seven paths to data scientist and one of the paths talks about a fellow who really doesn't consider himself a data scientist, but he is a data scientist, been a data scientist for years, but he's really happy with this organization and his role as it's titled as an engineer and he's great. He's good to go. So maybe we'll talk about it a little bit later, too. I think as we were chatting and planning, someone asked about pedigree a little bit and one of the points I like to make is there's no right, or wrong way to do it. There's no right, or wrong way to get there just once you get there, have fun with it. MAE: I love what you said, Adam, about the steps and they're very similar to what I would advise to any traditional coder and have advised is take all of your prior work experience before you become a programmer. It is absolutely relevant and some of the best ways to have a meaningful impact and mitigate one's own imposter syndrome is to get a job where you are programming and you already have some of that domain knowledge and expertise to be able to lend. So you don't have to have been one of the rarefied few, but just having any familiarity with the discipline, or domain of the business you end up getting hired at, or applying to certainly is a way to get in the door a little easier and feel more comfortable once you're there, that you can contribute in lots of ways. ADAM: And it gives you the ability to provide value that other folks who are on a different path, who are going into data science earlier—this is a great path, too don't let me discount that path—but those folks don't have the deep domain knowledge that someone who transitions into data science later in their career provides. MAE: Exactly. Yeah, and the amazing teams have people with all the different versions, right? ADAM: Right. MAE: Like we don't want a team with only one. Yeah. ADAM: That's another thing I like to say about data science is it's a team sport. It has to be a teams – it has to be done in tandem with others. CASEY: I just had a realization that everyone I know in data science, they tend to come from science backgrounds, or maybe a data science bootcamp. But I don't know anyone who moved from web development into data science and that's just so surprising to me. I wonder why. MAE: I crossed the border a little bit, I would say, I worked in the Center for Data Science at RTI in North Carolina and I did do some of the data science there as well as just web programming, but my undergrad is biochem. So I don't break your role. [laughs] MANDO: [chuckles] Yeah. I'm trying to think. I don't think I know any either. At the very least, they all come from a hard science, or mathematics background, which is interesting to me because that's definitely not my experience with web application developers, or just developers in general. There's plenty that come from comp side background, or an MIS background, or something like that, but there's also plenty who come from non-traditional backgrounds as well. Not just bootcamps, but just like, they were a history major and then picked up programming, or whatever and it doesn't seem to be as common, I think in data science. Not to say that you couldn't, but just for my own, or maybe our own experience, it's not quite as common. ADAM: If there's anybody listening with the background that we're talking about, the other backgrounds, I would say, reach out probably to any of us and we'd love to workshop that with you. MAE: Yes! Thank you for saying that. Absolutely. MANDO: Yeah, the more stories we can amplify the better. We know y'all are out there; [chuckles] we just don't know you and we should. MAE: Adam, can you tell us some descriptor that is a hobnobbing thing that we would be able to say to a data scientist? Maybe you can tell us what P values are, or just some little talking point. Do you have any favorite go-tos? ADAM: Well, I suppose if you're looking for dinner party casual conversation and you're looking for some back pocket question, you could ask a data scientist and you're not a data scientist. I would maybe ask a question like this, or a question that I could respond to easily as a data scientist might be something like, “Well, what types of predictions are you looking to make?” and then the data scientists could respond with, “Oh, it's such an interesting question. I don't know if anybody's ever asked me that before!” But the response might be something like, “Well, I'm trying to predict a classification. I'm trying to predict categories,” or “I'm trying to predict income,” or “I'm trying to predict whatever it is that –” I think that would be an interesting way to go. What's another one? CASEY: Oh, I've got one for anyone you know in neuroscience. ADAM: Oh, yeah. MAE: Yay! CASEY: I was just reading a paper and there's this statistics approach I'm sure I did in undergrad stats, but I forgot it. Two-way ANOVA, analysis of variance, and actually, I don't think I know anyone in my lab that could explain it offhand real quickly really well because we just learn it enough to understand what it is and why we use it and then we have the computer do it. But it's an interesting word saying it and having someone say, “Yes, I know what that means enough. It's a science, or neuroscience.” ADAM: I would be interested in how neuroscience is used two-way ANOVA because I'm not a neuroscientist and two-way ANOVA is so useful in so many other contexts. CASEY: I'm afraid I can't help today. Maybe 10 years ago, I could have done that. [laughter] CASEY: It's just something that you don't work with and talk about a lot. It's definitely fallen out of my headspace. I looked up the other day, I couldn't remember another word from my neuroscience background. Cannula is when you have a permanent needle into a part of the brain, or maybe someone's vein, same thing. I used to do surgeries on rats and put cannulas and I was like, “What's that thing? What was that thing I did?” I have no idea! It's just like time passes and it fades away. I don't do that anymore. [chuckles] ADAM: So sometimes folks will ask me why I'm a data scientist and I love that question by the way, because I'm a major proponent of knowing what your why is in general, or just having a why and knowing a why, knowing what your why is. Why do you do what you do? What makes you excited about your career, about your work, about your clients, about your coworkers? One of the main reasons I am a data scientist is because it's an opportunity to create new knowledge and that's the scientific process, really. That's the main output of science is new knowledge and if you think about that, that's really powerful. This is now at the end of this scientific process, if you implement it correctly, we now know something about how the world works, about how people in the world work, or something about the world in general that we didn't know before. I get goosebumps. We're on podcast so you can't see the goosebumps that I'm getting. But when I talk about this, I actually get goosebumps. So for me, being a data scientist and then there's also the debate is data science, science and I say, absolutely yes, especially when you are implementing your work with this spirit' the spirit of creating new knowledge. One of the reasons I am very adamant about keeping this why in the forefront of my mind and proposing it as a why for others who maybe haven't found their why yet is because it's also a really powerful guardrail that prevents us from working on problems that we already have answers to, that have been analyzed and solved, or questions asked and asked and answered. I'm a major proponent of avoiding that type of work, unless you have a really good reason to replicate, or test replication, or you're looking for replication. That would be an exception, but in general, questions—analytical questions, research questions, and data science problems—that lead to new knowledge are the ones that excite me the most. And then this goes back to what I was talking about a moment ago, my superpower teaching and learning. One of the reasons I really enjoy teaching data science in the classroom, or statistics in the classroom, or at corporate training is because then I can empower others to create new knowledge. That feels really good to me when I can help others create new knowledge, or give others the skills and abilities to do that as well. MAE: I love that. Yeah. I do have one angle on that, but I hope this doesn't feel like putting you on the spot, but especially in the not revisiting a established—I'm going to do air quotes—facts and from undergrad, the scientific definition of fact has not yet been proven false. But anyways, there is a growing awareness of bias inherent in data and we so often think of data as the epitome of objectivity. Because it's a bunch of numbers then therefore, we are not replicating, or imposing our thoughts, but there is the Schrodinger's cat, or whatever in place all the time about how those “facts” were established in the first place, where that data was called from? Like, the Portlandia episode where they ask where the chicken is from and they end up back at the farm. [laughter] The data itself, there's just a lot in there. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that accordion. ADAM: There's a lot. That's a big question. I will say one of the things that keeps me up at night is this problem, especially when it comes to the potential for our work in data science, to perpetuate, exacerbate social inequity, social inequality, racial inequality, gender inequality, economic inequality. This keeps me up at night and I am, like most, or like everyone – well, no, I don't know if everybody is interested in solving that problem. I think a lot of data scientists are, I think a lot of researchers are; I think many are interested in solving that particular problem and I count myself among those. But I would be ahead of myself if I purported to say that I had a solution. I think in this format and in this context, one of the best things to do is to point folks towards others who have spent even more time really focusing on this and I think the go-to is Weapons of Math Destruction. Weapons of Math Destruction is a book. If you're on a bad connection, that's M-A-T-H. Weapons of Math Destruction and especially if you're just getting started on this concern, that's a good place to get started. MAE: Thank you. Thanks for speaking to that, Adam. CASEY: There's a piece of the question you asked me that I always think about is the data true and I like to believe most data is true in what it measured, but it's not measuring truth with a T-H. ADAM: That's true. MAE: Whoa. ADAM: I think you could spend a lot of time thinking this through and noodling through this, but I would caution you on something you said it's true as to what you measured. Well, you have measurement error. We have entire – actually, I happen to have social statistics handbook handy. In any statistics handbook, or statistics textbook is going to have either an entire chapter, or a major portion of one of the introductory chapters on error, the types of error, and measurement error is one of them, perception error, all of the – and I'm on the spot to name all the errors. I wish I could rattle those off a little bit better. [chuckles] ADAM: But if you're interested, this is an interesting topic, just Google data errors, or error types, or statistical errors and you will get a rabbit hole that will keep you occupied for a while. MAE: Love it. I will be in that rabbit hole later. [laughs] ADAM: Yeah. I'm going to go back down that one, too myself. MANDO: So Adam, we have people who are listening right now who are interested in following one of your paths, or one of the paths to becoming a data scientist and maybe they have domain expertise in a particular area, maybe they don't. Maybe they're just starting out. Maybe they're coming from a bootcamp, or maybe they're from a non-traditional background and they're trying to switch careers. If you were sitting there talking to them one-on-one, what are some things that you would tell them, or what are some starting points for them? Like, where do you begin? ADAM: Well, one, admittedly self-serving item I would mention is consider the option of hiring a career coach and that's one of the things that I do in my line of consulting work is I help folks who are towards the middle, or latter part of their career, and they're looking to enter into, or level up in data science. So a career coach can – and I've hired career coaches over the years. Back to, Mando, one of the questions you asked me earlier is how did you end up in data science? Well, part of that story, which I didn't talk to then is, well, I went into data science route when the faculty route didn't open up for me and I'm a huge fan. I had two career coaches helping me out with both, faculty and non-faculty work for a while. So having been the recipient and the beneficiary of some great career coaching, I have also recently become a career coach as well. Probably something more practical, though. Let me give some practical advice. A portfolio, a professional portfolio for a data scientist is probably one of the most essential and beneficial things you can do for yourself in terms of making that transition successfully and then also, maintaining a career. If you're interested in advancing your career in this way, maintaining a career trajectory that keeps you going so having and maintaining a portfolio. I'll go through four tips on portfolio that I give folks and these tips are specifically tips that can help you generate content for your portfolio, because I know one of the hardest things to do with the portfolio is, well, let me just do some fictional hypothetical project for my portfolio, so hard to do and also, can end up being sort of dry, stale, and it might not really connect with folks. These are four ways you can add to, or enhance your portfolio. I wouldn't call them entire projects; maybe they're mini projects and they're great additions to your portfolio. The first one is: make a Rosetta Stone. This one is for folks who have learned one computer programming language, and now it's time for them to learn another computer programming language, or maybe they already know two computer programming languages. In fact, the Rosetta Stone idea for your portfolio doubles as a way to build on and expand your skills. So here's what a Rosetta Stone is. You have a project; you've done it from start to finish. Let's say, you've done a project from start to finish in Python. Now port that entire project over to R and then in a portfolio platform—I usually recommend GitHub—commit that work as git commits as a Rosetta Stone side-by-side examples of Python and R code that produce the same results and the same output. I love this piece of advice because in doing this, you will learn so much about the language that you originally wrote the program in and you will learn a lot about the target language. You're going to learn about both languages and you're going to have a tangible artifact for your portfolio and you might even learn more about that project. You might encounter some new output in the new language, which is more accessible for that language, that you didn't encounter in the old language and now you're going to have a new insight about whatever your research project was. The next piece of advice I have is make a cheat sheet and there's tongue in cheek opinion about cheat sheets. I think sometimes folks don't like to call them cheat sheets because the word cheat has negative connotations, but whatever you're going to call it, if it's a quick reference, or if it's a cheat sheet, a well-designed cheat sheet on any tool, platform, tool platform, language that you can think of is going to be a really nice addition to your portfolio. I recommend folks, what you do is you just find the things that you do the most frequently and you're constantly referencing at whatever website, make a cheat sheet for yourself, use it for a while, and then polish it up into a really nice presentable format. So for example, I have a cheat sheet on interpreting regression. I also have a cheat sheet that is a crosswalk from Stata, which is a statistical programming language, to Python. So actually there, I've put the two of them together. I've made this cheat sheet, which is also a Rosetta Stone. If you're looking for those, you can find those on my GitHub, or my LinkedIn, I have cheat sheets on my LinkedIn profile as well and you can see examples. I do have on YouTube, a step-by-step instructional video on how to make a cheat sheet and they're actually really easy to do. So if you even if you consider yourself not graphically inclined, if you pick the right tools—and the tools that you would pick might not be your first choice just because they're not marketed that way—you can put together a really nice cheat sheet relatively easily. The third tip is to write an article… about a piece of software that you dislike. So write an article about a piece of software that you dislike and this has to be done with, especially in the open source community, do this one carefully, possibly even contact the creators, and also, be sure not to blame anybody, or pass judgment. Just talk about how and why this particular project doesn't quite live up to your full aspiration, or your full expectation. I've done this a couple of times in a variety of ways. I didn't in the title specifically say, “I don't like this,” or “I don't like that,” but in at least one case, one of the articles I wrote, I was able to later submit as a cross-reference, or an additional reference on an issue in GitHub and this was specifically for Pandas. So there was a feature in Pandas that wasn't working the way I wanted it to work. [chuckles] MAE: Pandas. ADAM: Yeah, Pandas is great, right? So there's a feature in Pandas that wasn't working in quite the way that I wanted it to. I wrote an article about it. Actually, I framed the article, the article title is, “How I broke Pandas.” Actually, several versions of Pandas back, the issue was it was relatively easy to generate a Pandas data frame with duplicate column names. Having duplicate column names in a Pandas data frame obviously can cause problems in your code later because you basically have multiple keys for different columns. Now, there's a setting in Pandas that will guard against this and it's an optional setting—you have to toggle it on and off. This article, I like to say, helped improve Pandas. So write an article about software you dislike and also, like I said, be diplomatic and in this case, I was diplomatic by framing the article title by saying, “A few times, I managed to break Pandas,” and then – MANDO: This reminds me a lot of Kyle Kingsbury and his Jepsen tests that he used to do. He was aphyr on Twitter. He's not there anymore, but he would run all these tests against distributed databases and distributed locking systems and stuff like that and then write up these large-scale technical explanations of what broke and what didn't. They're super fascinating to read and the way that he approached them, Adam, it's a lot like you're saying, he pushed it with a lot of grace and what I think is super important, especially when you're talking about open source stuff, because this is what people, they're pouring their heart and soul and lives into. You don't have to be ugly about it. ADAM: Oh, absolutely. MANDO: [chuckles] And then he ended up like, this is what he does now. He wrote this framework to do analysis of distributed systems and now companies hire him and that's his job now. I'm a big fan of the guy and I miss him being on Twitter and interacting with him and his technical expertise and also, just his own personality. Sorry, your topic, or your little cheat there reminded me of that. We'll put some links—thanks, Casey—and in the show notes about his posts so if people haven't come across this stuff yet, it's a fascinating read. It's super helpful even to this day. ADAM: I'm thankful for the connection because now I have another example, when I talk to people about this, and it's incredible that you say built an entire career out of this. I had no idea that particular tip was so powerful. MAE: So cool. MANDO: [chuckles] So I think you said you have one more, Adam? ADAM: The fourth one is: contribute to another project. One of the best examples of this is I wrote an article on how to enhance your portfolio and someone really took this fourth one to a whole new level. I'm sure others have as well, but one person—we'll get links in, I can get some links in the show notes—what he did was he found a package in R that brings data for basically sample datasets for our programmers and citizens working and data scientists working with R. But he was a Python person. So he suggested, “Hey, what about making this?” I remember he contacted me and he said, “I read your article about adding to my portfolio. I really think it might make sense to port this project over to Python,” and so, he was combining two of them. He was making a Rosetta Stone and he was contributing someone else's project. Now this data is available both in R and in Python and the author of this project has posted about it. He posted about it in May, early May, and it's constantly still a month and a half later getting comments, likes, and links. So he's really gotten some mileage out of this particular piece, this addition to his portfolio and the original author of the original software also has acknowledged it and it's really a success. It's really a success. So contribute to another project is my fourth tip. Oh, one more idea on contributing to another project. Oh, I have an article on that lists several projects that are accepting contributions from intermediate and beginners. The point there is identify specific projects that are accepting beginner and immediate submissions on contributions, mostly via GitHub. But if you go to GitHub and if you're newer to GitHub, you can actually go to a project that you like, go to its Issues tab, and then most projects have tags associated with their issues that are identified as beginner friendly. That is an excellent place to go in order to get started on contributing to another project, which makes the world a better place because you're contributing to open source and you have an addition to your portfolio. MANDO: Oh, these are fantastic tips. Thank you, Adam. ADAM: I'm glad you like them. Can I give another one? Another big tip? This one's less portfolio, more – MANDO: Yeah, lay it on us. MAE: Do! By all means. ADAM: And I'd be interested, Mae, since you also made a similar career transition to me. I made an investment. I think I know what you might say on this one, but I spent money. I spent money on the transition. I hired consultants on Fiverr and Upwork to help me upgrade my social media presence. I hired the career coaches that I mentioned. Oh, actually the PhD program, that was not free. So I spent money on my transition and I would point that out to folks who are interested in making this transition, it's not a transition that is effortless and it's also not a transition that you can do, I think it's not one that you can do without also investing money. MAE: Yeah. [chuckles] Okay, I'm going to tell you my real answer on this. ADAM: Okay. MAE: Or corollary. I had a pretty good gig at a state institution with a retirement, all of these things, and I up and left and went to code school. I had recently paid off a lot of debt, so I didn't have a lot of savings. I had no savings, let's just say that and the code school had offered this like loan program that fell through. So I'm in code school and they no longer are offering the ability to have this special code school loan. I put code school on my credit card and then while in code school, my 10-year-old car died and I had to get a new car. ADAM: Ah. MAE: In that moment, I was struggling to get some fundamental object-oriented programming concepts that I'm like, “Holy cow, I've got a mortgage. I no longer have a car.” Now I'm in a real bind here, but I be leaving myself. I know I made these choices after a lot of considered thought and consultation. I, too had hired a career coach and I was like, “I've already made this call. I'm going to make the best of it. I'm just going to do what I can and see what happens.” I really have a test of faith on that original call to make those investments. I would not recommend doing it the way I did to anyone! [laughter] MAE: And I went from a pretty well-established career and salary into – a lot of people when they go into tech, it's a huge jump and I had the opposite experience. That investment continued to be required of me for several years. Even still, I choose to do things related to nonprofits and all kinds of things, but it takes a lot of faith and commitment and money often, in some form, can be helpful. There are a lot of, on the programming side, code schools that offer for you to pay a percentage once you get a salary, or other offsetting arrangements. So if somebody is listening, who is considering programming, I have not seen those analogs in data science, but on the programming side, especially if you're from a group underrepresented in tech, there's a number of different things that are possible to pursue still. ADAM: Here we are talking about some of the lesser acknowledged aspects of this transition. MAE: Yeah. ADAM: Some of the harder to acknowledge. MAE: Yeah. MANDO: Yeah, I really liked what you said, Mae about the need to believe in yourself and Adam, I think what you're saying is you have to be willing to bet on yourself. ADAM: Yes. MAE: Yeah. MANDO: You have to be willing to bet on yourself and sometimes, in some forms, that's going to mean writing a check, or [chuckles] in Mae's example, putting it on your credit card, but. [laughter] Sometimes that's what it means and that's super scary. I'm not a 100% convinced that I have enough faith in my ability to run the dishwasher some days, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do that today, or not. This is going to be really silly and stupid, but one of my favorite cartoons is called Avatar: The Last Airbender. MAE: Yes! MANDO: It's a series on Cartoon Network, I think. No, Nickelodeon, I watched it with my kids when they were super little and it's still a thing that we rewatch right now, now that they're older. There's this one episode where this grandfatherly wizened uncle is confronted [chuckles] by someone who's trying to mug him [chuckles] and the uncle is this super hardcore general guy. He critics his mugging abilities and he corrects him and says, “If you stand up straight and you change this about the way that you approach it, you'll be much more intimidating and probably a more successful mugger,” and he's like, “But it doesn't seem that your heart is into the mugging.” [chuckles] So he makes this guy a cup of tea and they talk about it and the guy's like, “I don't know what I'm doing. I'm lost. I'm all over the place. All I want to do is become a masseuse, but I just can't get my stuff together.” Something that the uncle said that really, really struck with me was he said, “While it's important and best for us to believe in ourselves, sometimes it can be a big blessing when someone else believes in you.” MAE: So beautiful. MANDO: “And sometimes, you need that and so, I get it. You can't always bet on yourself, or maybe you can bet on yourself, but sometimes you don't have that backup to actually follow through with it.” That's why community is so important. That's why having a group of people. Even if it's one person. Someone who can be like that backstop to be, “You don't believe in yourself today. Don't worry about it. I believe in you. It's okay. You can do it. You're going to do it.” ADAM: Community is just massive. Absolutely massive. MANDO: Yeah. ADAM: Having a good, strong community is so important. Also, I think I could add to what you're saying is about betting on yourself. I don't know if I love the analogy because it's not a casino bet. MANDO: Right. ADAM: The odds are not in favor of the house here. If you have done the right consultation, spoken with friends and family, leveraged your community, and done an honest, objective, accurate assessment of your skills, abilities, and your ambition and your abilities, et cetera. It's a bet. It's a wager, but it's a calculated risk. MAE: Yes! That is how I have described it also. Yes, totally. I loved that story from Airbender and it ties in a few of our topics. One is one of the things Adam said originally, which is being deeply in touch with your why really helps. It also ties in the whole teaching thing and often, that is one of the primary roles is to offer faith and commitment to your pursuits. If I had had different code school teachers, the stress of my entire livelihood being dependent on my understanding these concepts in week two of bootcamp that I was struggling with, and I had made a calculated bet and I thought I was going to be awesome, but I was not. It was like the classic Peanuts teacher is talking, “Wah wah woh wah wah.” I had to lean into my teachers, my school, my peers, believe in me. I believed in me before, even if I don't in this moment and I just have to let that stress move to the side so that I can reengage. That was really the only way I was able to do it was having a similar – well, I didn't try to mug anybody, [laughs] but I had some backup that really helped me make that through. MANDO: Yeah, and those credit card folks call like, it's tricky. MAE: Yeah, and then I had to buy a car and those people were calling me and they just did an employment verification. They said, “You don't have a job!” I was like, “Oh my god. Well, you [inaudible] get my car back, but I have really good credit. How about you talk to your boss and call me back?” So anyway, these things all tie into, if we have time to talk about something, I was hoping we would cover is this thing about imposter syndrome and believing in oneself, but also not believing in oneself simultaneously and how to navigate that. I don't know, Adam, if you have particular advice, or thoughts on that. ADAM: I do have some advice and thoughts on that. Actually, just yesterday, I hosted a live webinar on this particular topic with another career coach named Sammy and she and I are very passionate about helping folks. When we work with clients, we work with folks intentionally to evaluate whether imposter syndrome might be part of the equation. Actually, in this webinar, we talked about three immunity boosts, or three ways to boost your immunity against imposter syndrome and in one way, or another, I think we've touched on all three with the exception of maybe one of them. So if you're interested in that topic reached out to me as well. I have a replay available of that particular webinar and I could make the replay available on a one-on-one basis to folks as well, who really want to see that material, and the section – MANDO: [inaudible] that. ADAM: Yeah, please reach out and LinkedIn. Easiest way to reach me is LinkedIn, or Twitter. Twitter actually works really well, too these days. MANDO: We'll put both of those in the show notes for folks. ADAM: Okay. Yeah, thank you so much. I look forward to potentially sharing that with folks who reach out. The community was the second immunity boost that we shared and actually, Mando and Mae, both just got done talking extensively about community. And then the first immunity boost we shared was know your baseline. We called it “know your baseline” and I know from our planning that we would put in this program notes, a link to an online assessment that's named after the original scientist, or one of the two original scientists who really began documenting imposter syndrome back in the 70s and then they called it imposter phenomenon. Oh, the history of this topic is just fascinating. Women scientists, North Carolina, first documented this and one of the two scientists is named Pauline Clance. So the Clance Imposter Phenomenon Scale, that'll be in the show notes. You can take the Imposter Phenomenon Scale and then objectively evaluate based on this is imposter syndrome a part of your experience, if it is what is the extent of that, and just knowing your baseline can be a really good way, I think to protect you from the effects of the experience. It's also, I think important to point out that imposter syndrome isn't regarded as a medical, or a clinical diagnosis. This is usually defined as a collection of thoughts and actions associated with career, or other academic pursuits. And then the third immunity boost is disseminate knowledge and I love the disseminate knowledge as an immune booster because what it does is it flips the script. A lot of times folks with imposter syndrome, we say to ourselves, “Gee, if I could get one more degree, I could probably then do this,” or “If I got one more certification,” or “I can apply for this job next year, I could apply for that permission next year because I will have completed whatever certification program,” or “If I read one more –” MANDO: One more year of experience, right? ADAM: Yeah. One more year of experience, or one more book, or one more class on Udemy. Especially for mid and late career professionals and we talked about this earlier, Mae the bank of experience and domain knowledge that mid and late career professionals bring, I promise nobody else has had your experience. Everybody has a unique experience and everybody has something to offer that is new and unique, and that is valuable to others. So I say, instead of signing up for the seminar, host the seminar, teach the seminar. [laughter] ADAM: Right? Again, there's nothing wrong with certifications. There's nothing wrong with Udemy classes, I have Udemy classes that you could should go take. There's nothing wrong with those, but in measure, in measure and then also, never, never, never, never forget that you already have skills and abilities that is probably worth sharing with the rest of the world. So I recommend doing that as a boost, as an immunity boost, against imposter syndrome. MANDO: Yes, yes, and yes! [chuckles] CASEY: Now, I took the Clance Imposter Phenomenon Scale test myself and I scored really well. It was super, super low for me. I'm an overconfident person at this point, but when I was a kid, I wasn't. [laughter] I was super shy. I would not talk to people. I'd read a book in a corner. I was so introverted and it changed over time, I think by thinking about how confidence leads to confidence. MANDO: Yes. CASEY: The more confident you are, the more confident you act, you can be at the world and the more reason you have to be competent over time and that snowballed for me, thank goodness. It could happen for other people, too gradually, slowly over time the more you do confidence, the more you'll feel it and be it naturally. MAE: Yes! MANDO: I think it works the other direction, too and you have to be real careful about that. Like Adam, you were talking about flipping the script. If you have a negative talk script of just one more, just this one thing, I'm not good enough yet and I'm not you know. That can reinforce itself as well and you just never end up getting where you should be, or deserve to be, you know what I mean? It's something that I struggle with. I've been doing this for a really, really long time and I still struggle with this stuff, it's not easy. It's not easy to get past sometimes and some days are better than others and Casey, like you said, it has gotten better over time, but sometimes, you need those daily affirmations in the morning in the mirror [laughs] to get going, whatever works for you. But that idea, I love that idea, Casey of confidence bringing more confidence and reinforcing itself. MAE: And being mindful of Dunning-Kruger and careful of the inaccuracy of self-assessment. I like a lot of these ways in which making sure you're doing both, I think all the time as much as possible. Seeing the ways in which you are discounting yourself and seeing the ways in which you might be over crediting. ADAM: Right. Like with a lot of good science, you want to take as many measurements as possible. MAE: Yeah. ADAM: And then the majority vote of those measurements points to some sort of consensus. So the IP scale is one tool you can use and I think to your point, Mae it'd be a mistake to rely on it exclusively. You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, but there's also the Johari window. MAE: Oh, I don't know. What's that? ADAM: Oh, the Johari window is great. So there's four quadrants and the upper left quadrant of the Johari window are things that you know about yourself and things that other people know about yourself. And then you also have a quadrant where things that you know about yourself, but nobody else knows. And then there's a quadrant where other people know things about you that you don't know. And then there's the complete blind spot where there are things about you that you don't know that other people don't know. And then of course, you have this interesting conversation with yourself. So that quadrant that I don't know about it and nobody else knows about it, does it really exist? Does the tree falling in the woods make a sound when nobody's there to hear it? You can have a lot of fun with Johari window as well and I think it also definitely connects with what you were just saying a moment ago about accuracy of self-assessments, then it gets back to the measurement that we were talking about earlier, the measurement errors. So there's perceptual error, measurement error—shucks, I had it, here it is—sampling error, randomization, error, all kinds of error. I managed to pull that book out and then get some of those in front of me. [laughter] CASEY: There are some nice nicknames for a couple of the windows, Johari windows. The blind spot is one of those four quadrants and façade, I like to think about is another one. It's when you put on the front; people don't know something about you because you are façading it. MAE: Hmm. MANDO: So now we'll go ahead and transition into our reflection section. This is the part where our esteemed panelists and dear friends reflect on the episode and what they learned, what stuck with them, and we also get reflection from our guest, Adam as well, but Adam, you get to go last. ADAM: Sounds good. MANDO: You can gauge from the rest of us. Who would like to go first? MAE: I can! I did not know that there was an evaluative measure about imposter phenomenon, or any of that history shared and I'm definitely going to check that out. I talk with and have talked and will talk with a lot of people about that topic, but just having some sort of metric available for some self-assessment, I think is amazing. So that is a really fun, new thing that I am taking away among many, many other fun things. How about you, Casey? CASEY: I like writing about software you dislike in a positive, constructive tone. That's something I look for when I'm interviewing people, too. I want to know when they get, get feedback, when they give feedback, will it be thoughtful, unkind, and deep and respectful of past decisions and all that. If you've already done that in an article in your portfolio somewhere, that's awesome. That's pretty powerful. MANDO: Oh, how fantastic is that? Yeah, I love that! CASEY: I don't think I've ever written an article like that. Maybe on a GitHub issue, or a pull request that's longer than it feels like it should be. [laughter] Maybe an article would be nice, next time I hit that. MANDO: Oh, I love that. That's great. I guess I'll go next. The thing that really resonated with me, Adam was when you were talking about investing in yourself and being willing to write that check, if that's what it means, or swipe that credit card, Mae, or whatever. I'm sorry, I keep picking on you about that. MAE: It's fine. [laughs] It's pretty wild! MANDO: I love it. I love it, and it reminded me, I think I've talked about it before, but one of my favorite writers, definitely my favorite sports writer, is this guy named Shea Serrano. He used to write for Grantland and he writes for The Ringer and he's a novelist, too and his catchphrase—this is why I said it earlier in the episode—is “bet on yourself.” Sometimes when I'm feeling maybe a little imposter syndrome-y, or a little like, “I don't know what I'm going to do,” I click on the Twitter search and I type “from:sheaserrano bet on yourself” and hit enter and I just see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of tweets of this guy that's just like, “Bet on yourself today.” “Bet on yourself” “Bet on yourself today, no one else is going to do it.” “No one's coming to save you, bet on yourself,” stuff like that and thank you, Adam for that reminder today. I needed that. ADAM: You're welcome. I'm so happy that you've got that takeaway. Thank you so much for sharing the takeaway. I have, I think two reflections. One, what a breath of fresh air, the opportunity to talk about life, career, but career in data science, and programming in a non-technical way. I think the majority of our conversation was non-technical. [laughter] We briefly went into some technicalities when we talked about how you can sometimes have duplicate heading names in a Pandas data frame. That was a little bit technical. Otherwise, we really just spoke about the humanistic aspects of this world. So thank you so much for that and I got a research tip! Mando, what a brilliant idea. If you're ever looking for more background on a book, do a Twitter search for the book name and then anybody who's been speaking about that book – MANDO: Oh, yes! ADAM: Yeah, right? You could extend that to a research tip. [overtalk] MANDO: That's fantastic! Absolutely. Yeah. ADAM: So today, I learned a new way to get additional background on any book. I'm just going to go to Twitter, Google, or not Google that, search the book title name, and I'm going to see what other people are saying about that book. And then I can check out their bios. I can see what else they're sharing. They might have insights that I might not have had and now I can benefit from that. Thank you. Thank you so much for the research tip. MANDO: Yeah, and I think it dovetails really well into what you were talking about earlier, Adam, about publishing data. Like building out this portfolio, writing your articles, getting it out there because someone's going to go to Google, or Twitter and type into the search bar a Pandas data frame, column, same name, you know what I mean and now they're going to hit “A few times, I managed to break Pandas,” your article. But it could be about anything. It could be about that stupid Docker thing that you fought with yesterday, or about the 8 hours I spent on Monday trying to make an HTTP post with no body and it just hung forever and I couldn't. 8 hours, it took me to figure out why it wasn't working and it's because I didn't have one line in and I didn't call request that set body. I just didn't do it. I've done this probably more than a million times in my career and I didn't do it and it cost me 8 hours of my life that I'm never getting back, but it happens. That's part of the job is that – [overtalk] MAE: Yeah, sure. MANDO: And you cry about it and you eat some gummy worms and then you pick yourself back up and you're good to go. ADAM: Yeah, another common one that people are constantly writing about is reordering the columns in a Pandas data frame. There's like a hundred ways to do it and none of them are efficient. MANDO: [laughs] Mm hm. ADAM: So I love [inaudible], of course. MANDO: Yeah, you hit the one that works for you, write a little something about it. It's all right. ADAM: Exactly, yeah. MANDO: All right. Well, thanks so much for coming on, loved having you on. Special Guest: Adam Ross Nelson.

Adam & Thora introduce the show and tell their origin stories. Enjoy! Socials: Twitter & Facebook Transcript: Adam: 00:00:08 Hello! And welcome to the Adam show. Adam: 00:00:10 It’s not the Adam show. You said it was all about me. You said if I joined you, it would be all about me. Just kidding. Welcome people. Thora: 00:00:19 This is Autism On Shift. Uh, today we’re just going to tell you about our show. Uh, introduce ourselves. Adam: I’m obviously Adam. Thora: I'm Thora. We are your hosts. We’re married and we run the show for funsies. Adam: We run the show. Thora: So the title of the show is Autism On Shift. So we are actually talking to autistic people at work about, yeah, well, not at work, they’re usually not at work when they’re talking to us. Adam: 00:00:47 It’s better than being on Facebook. We know you people out there. Thora: 00:00:51 Me. I’m on Facebook. Adam: At work? Thora: Oh no! Adam: Well. Don’t listen…. Dave Thora: So basically we talk to autistic people about their jobs, what they do for work. What is fun about it? Um, and how being autistic, uh, makes a difference at work. Adam: 00:01:13 Yep. Hence “on shift”. Also on shift is sort of the wordplay, you know, where we want to change the perspective that, uh, anybody can do anything. There’s a staggering statistic that Thora: 00:01:29 84% of autistic adults are unemployed or underemployed. Adam: 00:01:35 Right. And so we want to, uh, we want to change the employer’s idea of what people can do. We want to, um, on a lot of the, uh, sites you go on, people are always asking, uh, Thora: 00:01:47 Yeah, what do you do for work? What can I do? What am I capable of? And it’s a, it’s a huge conversation in the autistic community. Adam: 00:01:53 Right. So we thought we’d talked to some people and, and just put it out there and, and, and answer those questions Thora: 00:01:59 And make a shift in that social conversation, uh, you know, about what, uh, autistic people are capable of. So that’s why we’re here. Adam: So we’re witty. Thora: I don’t know about all that. Adam: I’m sure we are. Thora: Uh, so I’m Thora T H O R A Thora like the thunder god, but within an A. Adam: The A is for Adam. Thora: So my story is, I was late diagnosed. I was diagnosed almost two years ago at age 42. And I’m sure, like many of you, it had me kind of looking back at my life and understanding more things. Adam: 00:02:43 I’m not so weird. Thora: 00:02:46 Yeah. Well, I am weird of course I'm weird. Adam: That's what I like about ya. Thora: But that, there’s a reason for it as opposed to just, um, Adam: So

What You'll Learn From This Episode: How to deal with 'overwhelming complexity' Knowing when 'trying something different' will work for your business What is 'strategy of conversational relationship marketing' Related Links and Resources: I have a book called "Conversation Relationship Marketing" which essentially breaks this entire process down. And you can get that for completely FREE; I don't even ask for an optin for that. There's also an audio book version that you can get there. You can go to thinklikeafish.co.uk/sbs and you also see a few other things on that page as a little surprise, as an 80-minute training on how to use pawn chips to grow your business. There's a few other things you can do and listen to B2B Growth Think Tank podcast on there. So many things there to connect with me and I'd love you to come and pick the things that make the most sense to you. Summary: Adam King is "The Captain of The Ship” at Growth Consultancy Think Like a Fish, where he helps established B2B and Professional Service Firms implement a simple, scalable business development system he's developed from over 18 years in marketing called The Growth Accelerator Ecosystem, that gives them the platform to grow their business from 6 to 7 figures (and beyond). He's also the Host of The B2B Growth Think Tank, where each week he and his expert guests discuss growth strategies, ideas and insights, as well as helping another business owner on the “Virtual Hotseat” by masterminding actionable solutions to a specific challenge they're currently trying to solve in their business. Here are the highlights of this episode: 1:47 Adam's ideal Client: It's essentially the owners and Directors of firms that sell high ticket, high value, high trust B2B or professional services. And they're generally generating between mid 6-figures to low 7-figures on annual revenue and they're just committed and motivated to implement the system that you described there or a form of system, business development system that will help generate more revenue, less time, lower marketing cost. And to be honest, they're a bit sick and tired of all the hype and false promises and they prefer to work with a partner that actually guarantees' results. 2:42 Problem Adam helps solve: I think the real problem that I solve is 'overwhelming complexity' but I think the people generally think that it isn't their core problem and they generally come to me thinking that they need to be able to full or top their pipeline, they're struggling to generate enough demand that will really help them consistently generate those quality sales opportunities that we all need to grow. So, I give them that clear part. 3:26 Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Adam: Well, the most common thing that I hear or maybe hear this in yourself and some of the listeners out there, they come to me saying something along the lines of "look, we're really good in front of prospects and we win clients when we can talk to them but we're just not talking to enough of them to reach our growth goals." And, I get a lot of my clients come to me at some form of crossroad because their business has been successful, it's been established for a number of years and they got an amazing track record or providing a great service, they have the results to prove it and all that kind of thing but they're realizing that what they've done to get them to this point is not enough to get them to the next level. They know they need to do something different but they're just overwhelmed with all the options of how to do it. 4:35 What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding Adam and his solution: Well, I guess the first thing isn't necessarily a mistake, it's just trying to do what they're already been doing as a sort of reference there, and they built their business on referrals, hard work, hassle, that kind of thing. Maybe one or two sales rain makers in the business.

What You’ll Learn From This Episode: How to deal with 'overwhelming complexity' Knowing when 'trying something different' will work for your business What is 'strategy of conversational relationship marketing’ Related Links and Resources: I have a book called "Conversation Relationship Marketing" which essentially breaks this entire process down. And you can get that for completely FREE; I don't even ask for an optin for that. There's also an audio book version that you can get there. You can go to thinklikeafish.co.uk/sbs and you also see a few other things on that page as a little surprise, as an 80-minute training on how to use pawn chips to grow your business. There's a few other things you can do and listen to B2B Growth Think Tank podcast on there. So many things there to connect with me and I'd love you to come and pick the things that make the most sense to you. Summary: Adam King is "The Captain of The Ship” at Growth Consultancy Think Like a Fish, where he helps established B2B and Professional Service Firms implement a simple, scalable business development system he’s developed from over 18 years in marketing called The Growth Accelerator Ecosystem, that gives them the platform to grow their business from 6 to 7 figures (and beyond). He’s also the Host of The B2B Growth Think Tank, where each week he and his expert guests discuss growth strategies, ideas and insights, as well as helping another business owner on the “Virtual Hotseat” by masterminding actionable solutions to a specific challenge they're currently trying to solve in their business. Here are the highlights of this episode: 1:47 Adam’s ideal Client: It's essentially the owners and Directors of firms that sell high ticket, high value, high trust B2B or professional services. And they're generally generating between mid 6-figures to low 7-figures on annual revenue and they're just committed and motivated to implement the system that you described there or a form of system, business development system that will help generate more revenue, less time, lower marketing cost. And to be honest, they're a bit sick and tired of all the hype and false promises and they prefer to work with a partner that actually guarantees' results. 2:42 Problem Adam helps solve: I think the real problem that I solve is 'overwhelming complexity' but I think the people generally think that it isn't their core problem and they generally come to me thinking that they need to be able to full or top their pipeline, they're struggling to generate enough demand that will really help them consistently generate those quality sales opportunities that we all need to grow. So, I give them that clear part. 3:26 Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Adam: Well, the most common thing that I hear or maybe hear this in yourself and some of the listeners out there, they come to me saying something along the lines of "look, we're really good in front of prospects and we win clients when we can talk to them but we're just not talking to enough of them to reach our growth goals." And, I get a lot of my clients come to me at some form of crossroad because their business has been successful, it's been established for a number of years and they got an amazing track record or providing a great service, they have the results to prove it and all that kind of thing but they're realizing that what they've done to get them to this point is not enough to get them to the next level. They know they need to do something different but they're just overwhelmed with all the options of how to do it. 4:35 What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding Adam and his solution: Well, I guess the first thing isn't necessarily a mistake, it's just trying to do what they're already been doing as a sort of reference there, and they built their business on referrals, hard work, hassle, that kind of thing. Maybe one or two sales rain makers in the business.

Adam: Alright, hi! I'm Adam, and I'm with Jin today, and we're talking about your home country, Nepal.Jin: Yes, that's right.Adam: Very cool. I know that the Himalayas and even Mt. Everest is in Nepal, which is amazing. What else can you tell us about the geography of your country?Jin: Yeah, well actually, when people think about Nepal, they just talk about the mountains, but then there are actually three regions. There is the mountain region, and then there is another hilly region, and then the Terai region, so then in the Terai region, the earth, like the surface is really flat, and that's where people grow crops. That's where like we get all the grains from, and then there is the hilly region, which is in the middle part Nepal, and that's where I am from, the capital, Kathmandu, and it's like, the temperature is really good there because it's not really hot, not really cold. Ah, in the Terai region it's really hot, but in the hilly region, like it's perfect, and then there's the Himalayas, where it's super cold, and that's where there are like a lot of mountains, which divides us from China.Adam: So in the south it's kind of the farming area?Jin: Yeah, in the south, yeah, like everyone's ... the main job is farming.Adam: That's next to India?Jin: India, yeah.Adam: What kind of farming do they do in Nepal in the south?Jin: They usually grow rice there, and since the land is so fertile, there a like a lot of vegetables, rice, and like a lot of fruits. Everything that grows in hot temperatures.Adam: Oh, so you have a lot of fruits in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, we do. We have a lot of fruits, like of different kinds, like I told you, since it's cold, hot and moderate as well, so like we get fruits from all different places and it's amazing.Adam: Yeah, that's really cool. I didn't know Nepal had so many different climates in one country.Jin: Yeah, for a small country, it's a lot, I know.Adam: Well, thank you so much for telling us about Nepal today.Jin: You're welcome. You can ask me anytime.

Adam: Alright, hi! I'm Adam, and I'm with Jin today, and we're talking about your home country, Nepal.Jin: Yes, that's right.Adam: Very cool. I know that the Himalayas and even Mt. Everest is in Nepal, which is amazing. What else can you tell us about the geography of your country?Jin: Yeah, well actually, when people think about Nepal, they just talk about the mountains, but then there are actually three regions. There is the mountain region, and then there is another hilly region, and then the Terai region, so then in the Terai region, the earth, like the surface is really flat, and that's where people grow crops. That's where like we get all the grains from, and then there is the hilly region, which is in the middle part Nepal, and that's where I am from, the capital, Kathmandu, and it's like, the temperature is really good there because it's not really hot, not really cold. Ah, in the Terai region it's really hot, but in the hilly region, like it's perfect, and then there's the Himalayas, where it's super cold, and that's where there are like a lot of mountains, which divides us from China.Adam: So in the south it's kind of the farming area?Jin: Yeah, in the south, yeah, like everyone's ... the main job is farming.Adam: That's next to India?Jin: India, yeah.Adam: What kind of farming do they do in Nepal in the south?Jin: They usually grow rice there, and since the land is so fertile, there a like a lot of vegetables, rice, and like a lot of fruits. Everything that grows in hot temperatures.Adam: Oh, so you have a lot of fruits in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, we do. We have a lot of fruits, like of different kinds, like I told you, since it's cold, hot and moderate as well, so like we get fruits from all different places and it's amazing.Adam: Yeah, that's really cool. I didn't know Nepal had so many different climates in one country.Jin: Yeah, for a small country, it's a lot, I know.Adam: Well, thank you so much for telling us about Nepal today.Jin: You're welcome. You can ask me anytime.

Adam: Alright, hi! I'm Adam, and I'm with Jin today, and we're talking about your home country, Nepal.Jin: Yes, that's right.Adam: Very cool. I know that the Himalayas and even Mt. Everest is in Nepal, which is amazing. What else can you tell us about the geography of your country?Jin: Yeah, well actually, when people think about Nepal, they just talk about the mountains, but then there are actually three regions. There is the mountain region, and then there is another hilly region, and then the Terai region, so then in the Terai region, the earth, like the surface is really flat, and that's where people grow crops. That's where like we get all the grains from, and then there is the hilly region, which is in the middle part Nepal, and that's where I am from, the capital, Kathmandu, and it's like, the temperature is really good there because it's not really hot, not really cold. Ah, in the Terai region it's really hot, but in the hilly region, like it's perfect, and then there's the Himalayas, where it's super cold, and that's where there are like a lot of mountains, which divides us from China.Adam: So in the south it's kind of the farming area?Jin: Yeah, in the south, yeah, like everyone's ... the main job is farming.Adam: That's next to India?Jin: India, yeah.Adam: What kind of farming do they do in Nepal in the south?Jin: They usually grow rice there, and since the land is so fertile, there a like a lot of vegetables, rice, and like a lot of fruits. Everything that grows in hot temperatures.Adam: Oh, so you have a lot of fruits in Nepal?Jin: Yeah, we do. We have a lot of fruits, like of different kinds, like I told you, since it's cold, hot and moderate as well, so like we get fruits from all different places and it's amazing.Adam: Yeah, that's really cool. I didn't know Nepal had so many different climates in one country.Jin: Yeah, for a small country, it's a lot, I know.Adam: Well, thank you so much for telling us about Nepal today.Jin: You're welcome. You can ask me anytime.

There are some big-ticket items that most people have and need, but absolutely hate shopping for. Mattresses fall into that category. In fact, studies have shown that people would rather go to the dentist than buy a new mattress. Helix Sleep is trying to take the pain out of that experience. Adam Tishman is the co-founder and co-CEO of Helix Sleep, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he explains why his DTC mattress company is different from the rest, and why those differences matter. He explains the reason it was critical to spend time researching, testing, and perfecting a product before bringing it to market and how that upfront effort created priceless brand equity. Adam also dives into personalization, but he takes it beyond the need to simply give customers a personalized experience, and explains why data-collection and a personalization strategy that includes personalized products can help you expand your business more successfully when you are ready.Main Takeaways:Slow And Steady: With a physical product that is dependent on reviews, rushing to market could spell disaster. Take the time to do the research, test, iterate, and develop a product that is review-ready before you present it to your customers.You’re Not Me: With certain products, there is a specific customer set or type of person for whom the product is made. With mattresses, every person has unique needs, so the product has to be personalized as much as possible. Finding the best way to understand your customers’ needs should be a top priority, and through multiple touchpoints and quizzes, you can gather the data necessary to provide the best experience and product.The Beginning of a Beautiful Friendship: By cultivating data and delivering personalized products and experiences for your customers, you are inherently forming a stronger relationship with them than a typical brand. Not only are you collecting insights that can be used to help you expand into new product lines, you are also creating a network of previous customers who are more likely to trust the brand and try something new.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. This is Stephanie Postles. Co-founder at mission.org, and your host. Today, we're chatting with Adam Tishman, the co-founder and co-CEO at HelixSleep. Adam, welcome to the show.Adam:Hey Stephanie, thanks so much for having me.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm excited to have you. so I have never said co-CEO before, which I kind of want to start there. Tell me a bit about being a co-CEO at a company.Adam:Yeah, definitely. So we founded the business, myself and two other co-founders, out of business school. And over the sort of evolution of the company and where we've been over the past five years, we actually run it with myself and one of the other co-founders as sort of the two headed dragon as co-CEOs. And then our third founder is our CFO and COO. And it works really well because it allows us to sort of manage different areas of the business at the CEO level and also work really collaboratively together as well.Stephanie:Awesome. So you co-founded HelixSleep and that was back in 2015, right?Adam:Yeah. So it was founded by myself and, as I said, two other co-founders back in business school, back in 2015. The three of us had moved to a new city to go to school, went through the process of buying a mattress just for ourselves. And it was sort of uniquely terrible in many ways, whether it was really confusing pricing and really expensive pricing in the store, really just bad in-store buying experience. We actually found out later doing research that buying a mattress is actually rated as a worse experience than going to the dentist. And the last thing was, it was just really confusing. If you don't buy mattresses all the time, which no one really does, and it's something that you buy somewhat infrequently, people have a really hard time understanding how to buy it. And so for us, we sort of saw the problem, saw some of the solutions that others in our category were trying to fix this problem, and felt like we could sort of come in and solve it in a much better, more efficient way.Stephanie:Got it. So five years ago it feels like so long ago, what was the market like back then? I mean, who were some of the up and coming people and what kind of unique angle did you guys see in the market at that time?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So five years ago, I would say the direct to consumer, or just generally buying mattresses online, was pretty nascent. It was predominantly, people were going into stores. There was actually a while where people were buying beds on phones, but we sort of saw the market, which is very consolidated at the traditional brand retail level. So you have sort of Simmon's, Tempur Sealy, Sleep Number, Casper, which is the most well known and largest player of the D to C mattress brands head launched recently and had really done a good job at showing that this was a category that could generate interest online, somewhat of an atypical category with low, as I mentioned, low ecommerce penetration. What we saw as the issues that I mentioned earlier, we felt that Casper and a lot of the other brands that were starting to pop up were sort of maybe filling in one friction, but replacing it with a different friction.Adam:So all of us, including Helix, offer products directly to consumers at much better price points, helping out that value chain issue with traditional retailers. Everyone tries to provide a much better buying experience through a really good user experience on the website, 100 night trial, free shipping, et cetera. The issue where we really differentiate at Helix is around the product itself. So what Casper did and what pretty much every other planner space did was said, "It's really challenging to choose a mattress. So we're going to just get rid of choice altogether, and offer one type of mattress for every single person."Adam:And what we found doing a whole ton of research and talking to people, and it sort of makes sense that if you think about it implicitly, is that there really is a wide variety of needs and preferences as it relates to your mattress and to the way that you sleep, the same way that we all don't fit in the same clothing. We all don't have the same exercise routine that works best for us, the same diet. Sleep is quite personal. Adam:So one of our missions was effectively, could we help customers understand the right products for them through a sleep quiz that asks questions about things that you knew about yourself? So your body type, your height, your weight, do you tend to sleep on your back or your stomach? Do you get hot at night? Do you get cold? Do you have back pain? Do you like a bed a little bit firmer or softer? And then we take that information and effectively translate it into the best mattress for you. So the order of the layers in the mattress, the density of those layers, the types of materials, the density of those materials, are all really important for getting the best night's sleep and effectively that's what we're doing. So we like to think of it as sort of providing a technology enriched solution as a salesperson. So instead of going into the store and sort of hanging out with sales person, we do that online through our quiz.Stephanie:Very cool. And yeah, what I love about what I read about you guys was that you did a ton of research. I think I read that you went through 100 plus page PhD dissertations, and you partnered with researchers in Europe to make sure you really understood how to create this algorithm and this quiz. Tell me a bit about your thought process there, because I think that's so different than a lot of D to C companies right now who are just trying to get that quick launch, take advantage of the market, and are just going really quickly instead of taking a step back and doing the research and figuring out how to solve the problem.Adam:100%. I think for us, none of the three of us came from a traditional mattress background, right? And so we did what three nerdy guys would do, which is we started to do research. And we actually had this idea and stumbled across a PhD dissertation on sleep ergonomics, which is the study of the sort of spinal alignment of your back while you're sleeping. You hear a lot about spinal alignment and ergonomics and sort of office chairs, but this was really the first PhD dissertation on that, with bodies lying down. And we actually noticed that at the bottom of the PhD dissertation, the head author had left his email address. And so we emailed him.Adam:A couple of days later, we got on a Skype call with him. They were located in Europe and then about a week and a half later, we actually flew to Europe and met with them and effectively worked with them to translate their initial science into the crux of our initial algorithm, which over the last five years, we've sort of wholly taken ownership of, and refined quite a lot. And so it was sort of a funny story because it really was, we got on a plane and went to Belgium and had to figure out where we were going and all those types of things. But it was really important because we felt like we had a scientific base for the hypothesis that we were making.Adam:I think to your second part of the question, it's really interesting, this tension around, do I want to get to market as quickly as possible, or do we want to take a step back, feel really confident in the research, the development, the product testing? As you mentioned, we went through many, many versions of the mattress, many, many versions of the algorithm on how we matched people. And the approach that we took was that you really only get to come out to the world and present your product once, at least in physical products, that's sort of our belief as differentiated, perhaps, from a more technical product where you can have an MVP. We couldn't really sell a mattress that was only 50% as good as we wanted it to be one day, because we would get terrible product reviews, and we couldn't sort of build brand equity that way. And so we did a lot of work upfront to make sure that the product is where we wanted it to be.Stephanie:That's great. I mean, it seems like there's a lot of room to partner with researchers around a bunch of different topics, but what was that partnership like? I mean, when you went over to Belgium and you're essentially building out a model or an algorithm based on this person's research, were they like, "I want a piece of the pie, I want a little equity," or were they ready to give you all the information for free?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So we ended up working out a deal with them where effectively, they provided consulting services in exchange for equity in the business. Of course, that could have been consulting services for money. At the time, this was literally very, very early days. It was actually before we started working with them before we had raised our seed round. So there wasn't any money to pay them really. And so we went ahead with an equity relationship, which we felt made sense at the time. We still feel like it makes sense today. We don't really work with them at all and have not for a while, but it was really helpful to sort of supercharge our learning and understanding in terms of the development of the product and the algorithm.Stephanie:Very cool. I mean, have you had to iterate the model? Do you see people requesting different sleeping habits or behaviors? Have things changed for the past five years where you've actually had to change the model a couple times?Adam:Yeah, a lot actually. It's one of the biggest, from a consumer perspective, our differentiation is about providing personalization and a more custom mattress buying experience, but from a business bottle perspective, our ability to look at our algorithm or our model and effectively improve it is a really big lever to what makes us unique. And so if you think about what we're doing, is we're taking, as I said, information about yourself, matching it to a mattress. And so over the years, we've effectively, having sold hundreds of thousands of beds, we just have a lot more data. So we've been able to improve both the way that we match you, so person A with these attributes, are you getting matched to bed XYZ, and sort of edit, that as well as making physical product improvements to the beds themselves.Adam:So a lot of people talk about AB testing and talk about opportunities with using data to improve your product as it relates to your digital product, right? Your onsite conversion or your UX or something like that. We have taken that mentality to the physical product as well. And we've actually been able to reduce our return rate, improve customer satisfaction, improve average order value, all the main metrics associated with product and product satisfaction, by effectively looking at it in that light.Stephanie:Got it. And I also it was reading that the return rate, if you overemphasize how you have free returns and the 100 day, night guarantee and all that, if you overdo that, you'll be able to sell a lot more just because people have peace of mind. Even though I think I saw at least, I mean, it was a Casper stat, but it was only 10% of the people or less actually returned their mattress. Do you guys go about that same way of thinking of overemphasize things to make people feel like it's a risk free purchase?Adam:Yeah, I think there's two things there. I think that in our category, offering a fairly long return period, it's typically 100 nights, is kind of necessary, because you need to make someone feel confident in purchasing such a large, but really expensive item, right? Average order values in our category are really high. And so people want to feel really confident in the product that they're ordering. And that's why all of these brands are offering free returns, free shipping. In many cases, or in most cases, really generous policies around warranties, et cetera. It's just offering more opportunity to make someone feel comfortable with spending those dollars. So we definitely approach it that way.Adam:I wouldn't say that we necessarily overemphasize it. The reality is, most people need around two to four weeks to get used to a new mattress. And then after that, you don't really need another 70 days, but people tend to like that process. And in terms of return rates, you're right that return rates, they're honestly, I mean, Casper's return rate is probably higher than that number you said, but they're not as bad as retail, traditional apparel or something where return rates are 40, 50% or something like that.Stephanie:Yep. What happens when a mattress is returned? Where does it go?Adam:Yeah, that's a good question. So we do a few things. So when customers want to return a product, first, we work with them to see why, because there are ways we actually can improve the product experience after the fact. So we can send you a topper that adjusts the feel or other things along those lines, but in cases where mattresses need to be returned,, at Helix, at least we actually donate the vast majority of them. So we have a network of donation partners across the country where we will donate them. In some cases, we cannot donate them, either because there's state laws against it, or city laws against it, or if someone's located in a somewhat remote area. And in which case, we work with junk removal partners that end up recycling them. So all of our beds are technically, in the 100 night period, considered lightly used. So they're eligible for donation.Stephanie:That's great. So I was reading there's about over 100 companies now that sell mattresses online. How do you show how different your mattresses are and the algorithm that you have going on? How do you showcase that value proposition on your website or your advertising?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So it's a good question. And it's funny. That quote comes up a lot, the 100 plus mattress companies. It's one of those weird categories where there is a very long tail of players. So you probably have 10 to 15 players that have reached any semblance of scale, and then 80 that are very, very small. I mean, you would almost consider them, the equivalent would be like a mom and pop shop in retail world. What I will say is that buying a mattress is a long lead process. So when you decide you want to buy a bed, you're typically in market for it for a week, a few weeks, months even.Adam:And what that means is that you have many touch points with multiple brands, right? And you can imagine it's like buying a car, it's like buying anything that's expensive. And so across that journey, we feel like we do a really good job of sort of elevating our brand proposition and really personalizing our messaging specifically to consumers in ways that really speak to them so that our differentiation shines. The other thing is that, because of the way that we customize beds, and also that we really spend a lot of time on making sure that the product quality is excellent, is we just win a lot of awards. So we were named GQ's best mattress, Wired best mattress, whole host of others. And then we also get awards for specific affinity groups. So best mattress for back sleepers, best mattress for plus size consumers, or something like that. And we're able to elevate those messages on individual mattresses.Stephanie:Got it. Yeah. I saw, I think it was your organic line that won an award. How did you guys think about developing a new product that was organic materials? And also, launching like that, does it make your other products maybe not look as good? Or how did you guys think about that? Will it help or hurt us putting out an organic line? Because when I looked at it and I look at any organic products, it always makes you think, "Oh, well, what's in the other one if this one's made of natural materials and no chemicals?" So how did you guys think about that balance?Adam:Yeah, that's a great question. So we actually thought about that question a lot, and where we ended up and it's almost the core strategy of Helix is that throughout the first three and a half years of our business, we were holistically a single D to C brand Helix, right? Started out as just mattresses and then extended into other sleep products, pillows, sheets, box springs, adjustable bases, et cetera. And then about a year and a half ago, we took a step back, saw what we were building, which was this really fast, growing profitable brand, and in a category that we were sort of one of the leaders in, but what we saw under the hood was this really excellent collection of skillsets across our team, across our technology, some in-house built technology, across our supply chain capabilities and relationships. Could we view ourselves less as a single brand and more as a platform on which we could build a portfolio of home good brands?Adam:And that is the strategy that we are currently on. And so Helix is our sort of most well-known largest brand, but Birch, which is our organic line, or our organic brand, was launched about a year ago. And it is actually a sort of related, but completely separate brand. So if you were to go to birchliving.com, you would effectively see an entirely organic ecosystem with the goal of really feeling, I mean, truthfully feeling authentic to consumers that care about organic products, that supply chain is 100% sustainable. It's just a much different consumer. And so we want to make sure we talk to that niche consumer in a specific way that is perhaps different than a typical Helix consumer. And we've extended that process out more recently with the launch of All Form, which is our actually our first step out of the bedroom into the living room, which is a modular furniture brand.Stephanie:I love that. I mean, that seems so smart because it's different consumers are looking for different things and like you were just mentioning, if you're comparing the two, then you might actually walk away feeling bad if you went with the one that wasn't organic, but when you have it on a completely different site, you're really meeting the needs of the person who's coming there instead of trying to put everything on one site. So I love that.Adam:Yeah. I think it's certainly a slightly different strategy, but we just feel like consumers, especially online consumers, want niche experiences and want experiences that really speak to who they are, and their preferences. And we were sort of already doing that on the product side with Helix, but it made sense to do it in this scenario on the brand side with Birch as well.Stephanie:Yep. How do you keep track of everything that's happening under the different brands and the different websites? I mean, how do you make sure any learnings that happen at Birch are maybe transferred over to Helix and over to the furniture line? How do you keep it cohesive when you essentially have now three or four different businesses running?Adam:Yeah. It's hard for sure. I think we're currently operating under a shared services model, so we don't have a team that just does Helix and a team that just does Birch or a team that just does All Form. We're just not there. The other two brands are just not at that scale yet, but so that makes this actually a little bit easier because you have the same people that work in a functional area,, working across all of the brands, but it's certainly challenging, for sure. And we've been able to take a lot of learnings from Helix specifically, which is an older brand. It just has a lot more data. It has more customers on a daily and monthly basis, and leverage those learnings across the other brands, which it's typically in that direction from a [inaudible 00:22:02].Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, there seems like there's a big opportunity to also re-target prior customers because you already know how to talk to them. You've already sold to them before, and then showing them your new furniture line or the pillows or bed frame, even if it's on a different website, you kind of already know how to communicate that to them in a way that has converted in the past.Adam:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the core business case, right? And from a business perspective, we like that because it allows us to acquire a customer, build a lot of good will with that customer, and then sell them more products, right? Obviously, but from a consumer perspective, we also think it adds a lot of value to the customer journey because customers that are in market for things like mattresses tend to be in market for other home good products. Maybe you're moving, maybe you're renovating, maybe you got married, maybe you had a kid. Something is predicating your reason for being in market. And in many cases, if we can sort of create a lot of good will with you and then offer you more products, it's not just good for our business. It's also good for the customer because it makes shopping easier, right? it makes your purchase cycle and shopping and all of that a lot easier. And so that's what we're starting to do now. And where we're excited to move in the future.Stephanie:Okay, cool. So I also saw that you guys, I don't know if you still have showrooms, but you did have some showrooms in New York. And the process was that a customer would come in and they would take the quiz and then they would go to the showroom and maybe hang out for an hour, take a nap, try out the mattress. How has that model changed? And what's going on with maybe not having the ability to bring people into a showroom and try it out?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So we had a showroom in New York. It's obviously been closed for the last nine months. It was a really unique experience because it felt extremely personal, because it was really personal. It almost felt more like you were getting a piece of clothing tailored because you would show up, in many cases you would actually make an appointment in advance. We would have your information. We would actually build the bed for you on the spot. You'd be part of that process. And then you could hang out, test it, et cetera. And we tried to make the experience really, really great. It's unfortunate that we've had to close it. We have plans of moving into a more aggressive thoughts around potentially showrooms or retail units going forward.  Stephanie:And so when thinking about your marketing toolkit, what are some of your favorite channels to get in front of new customers right now?Adam:Yeah, so I think that we approach marketing extremely holistically. We have a very, very diversified marketing approach. Part of the reason for that is we think it just mitigates risk. It's very scary when 80% of your marketing budget is in one single channel, especially if one of those channels is a technology marketplace, or if it's Google or Facebook, and all of a sudden the Google algorithm changes, or Facebook gets rid of a targeted audience and that's it. And that actually happened in the home goods category a few years ago on Facebook.Stephanie:What did they take away?Adam:Yeah, I think it was 2018. They took away, there was a way that Facebook could help identify new movers, and they took that away, and we weren't super hit by it, but I know a lot of home goods brands and a lot of mattress companies, it was overnight, 30% of your ads disappeared, that kind of thing. So we don't do that.Stephanie:That's interesting that we're even talking about new movers because I'm in the process of moving right now and thinking about, "Do I just want to buy a new mattress, so when we get there, it's already set up?" Because it's going to take maybe a week or so to get all my stuff there. That's very smart to target people like me.Adam:Yeah. And so we try to avoid that just being too aggregated in a single channel. And so we're really diversified. The other thing is we operate almost all of our channels in house. It's just really important to us to be internal and holistic about it. So yeah, I mean in terms of channels that we love, it's nothing crazy. We're obviously across all the digital channels, radio, podcast, direct mail, all of those. I think if there is magic, the magic for us is really around thinking through the customer funnel holistically and making sure we understand and attribute accordingly with a pretty diversified marketing stack.Stephanie:Cool. So when thinking about 2021, what kind of trends are you most excited about, or new behaviors that you've seen occurring that you guys are excited about?Adam:Yeah. I think there's a lot. I think obviously just in general, COVID has really accelerated ecommerce adoption in atypical categories. And so I think that's pretty exciting to see where that settles once, hopefully, the world gets back to normal. I think a few areas that we're particularly interested in is there's a lot of movement on payment options and better opportunities for people to pay, which is sort of exciting. Another one is really around blending products and services. So sort of offering services and attaching them to products and using those as ways to better convert customers, and the tools available to do that are pretty interesting.Adam:Yeah, and then just for us, it's really around continuing to personalize our web experience, provide better customer experience, and those types of things. So I think 2021 is going to be a really interesting year. I think it's actually going to be two distinct years in one, the first half and the second half will be just completely different for a lot of businesses. And I actually would encourage anyone that's thinking about either starting a business or budgeting for a business to think about the world that way, you might actually want to have budgets for a beginning of the year plan and a second half of the year plan, because it's just really hard to know where we'll be. I feel confident in knowing where we'll be for the next three to four months, but after that, it's going to be a completely new experience.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. So I want to dig a bit more into, you were just mentioning about merging products and services, and I haven't heard anyone talk about that yet. So I want to hear more, what are you thinking around that? What kind of tools are popping up that you have top of mind?Adam:Yeah, so I think for us, merging products and services, there's a few forms of it. One, which is at its most face value, it's just offering more services as if they were products. So that would be things like white glove delivery, things like old mattress removal, those types of services, which technically aren't really physical products, but they help convert customers into buying your physical products. Perhaps the more interesting areas as it relates to customer experience, and can you empower your customer experience team to provide service as opposed to just being an answer center? Right?Adam:So I think a lot of people view customer experience or customer service as an area where people go and ask questions, but can you be more proactive in providing service, whether that service be design consultation, be helping think through answering questions, or whatever it might be that really activate almost a little bit more a sales channel. I think that that's really interesting as well for us. And then I know a lot of other people are thinking about other types of services they can offer. Obviously, this is just what we're thinking about. But I think that you're going to see a lot more web experiences that are trying to provide a service-like experience to a consumer in addition to a product.Stephanie:Got it. Yeah. And it seems like once some of those services start happening, though, a lot of times, they can become commoditized where then the consumer just starts to expect it. I mean, I'm even thinking about contactless delivery and things like that, where it might cost some businesses extra money to be able to do that, or take a mattress away or whatever it may be. But I think eventually it will become standard, and that businesses need to start planning for, what are the consumers looking for now? And what will eventually have to be absorbed into the margin because it's commoditized?Adam:Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that if what you're adding is something that can be easily commoditized, it certainly will be. If what you're adding is differentiated, unique, and valuable, then you should be able to charge for that value, right? It's sort of that simple. And so I think the example I use, white glove delivery, that's not unique to us. We're not the only people that can do that obviously.Adam:And so offering that, perhaps, could be something that becomes table stakes, or something that consumers come to have a level of expectation, but offering really niche opportunities to engage with someone on our CX team to help you through the buying process, that's not a commodity, right? That's something that you can really get to an amazing place through training and through branding and through just the entirety of your ecosystem, in my opinion. And so I definitely agree that some of these things could be monetized, but if you're doing them right, you should be able to, either, it should show up in your financials somewhere, whether it's you can charge more, your conversion rate is better, et cetera.Stephanie:All right. Let's move over to the lightning round, brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Adam?Adam:I hope so.Stephanie:All right. First up, if you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Adam:If I had a podcast, I mean, this is a boring answer right now. It would be on effectively what I was just talking about, which is the future of D to C. And my first guest would probably be Jeff Raider from Harry's.Stephanie:Oh, that's a good one. Awesome. What's up next on your Netflix queue?Adam:I'm about to finish the last episode of Queen's Gambit and I love it. It's really cool. I like it a lot.Stephanie:So good. I like that too, it's awesome. What topic or trend do you not understand today that you wish you did?Adam:I dabbled in high-level cryptocurrency a year and a half ago and I just don't understand it at all. So I wish I knew it better because I think there's opportunity there, but I'm not sure I'm the guy that's going to find it.Stephanie:What's the nicest thing someone's ever done for you?Adam:Wow. The nicest thing someone's ever done for me?Stephanie:I get that response a lot. "Whoa, deep."Adam:Yeah, I mean that's deep. I don't know. I mean, my wife married me. That was pretty nice. I'm pretty happy about that.Stephanie:What a nice lady.Adam:I know, right? What a nice... I guess that the nicest thing... I'll just bring it back to Helix. I don't know if that's a boring answer or not, but we had some pretty awesome early advisers that really didn't need to give the time that they gave, and it was just immensely valuable. So I'll go with that.Stephanie:That's a good one. All right. And then the last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Adam:Well, the real answer is COVID and the vaccine, that is the answer. And I think that anyone that tells you it's not macroeconomic facts is lying. From an internal standpoint, I'll go back to something I said earlier. I think that the movement in payment processing is a pretty big deal and not a lot of people are thinking about it, and I think that's going to be a big deal.Stephanie:Yep. Cool. All right, Adam. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Helix?Adam:Yeah, definitely. So come check us out. It's HelixSleep.com for Helix. For Birch, it's BirchLiving.com. And for All Form, the modular sofa brand, it's AllForm.com. Yeah. And that's sort of the best place to check us out and learn more.Stephanie:Awesome. All right. Well, thanks so much and have a great night.Adam:All right. Thank you so much.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about do-overs. So if you had a time machine and you could go back to your college years, is there anything that you might change or do differently?Sarah: I really wish that I would have had the chance to study abroad. I chose the wrong major initially. I was a nursing major for two years, and worked really hard at a major I was really bad at. And then after two years, I switched schools and switched majors. And because of that, I had so many credits to take that I couldn't study abroad or do really any extra classes that were fun.Adam: Hmm, that must have been challenging. Where would you have liked to study abroad?Sarah: Really, anywhere. I've always loved to travel, so I would have been open to going anywhere.Adam: So you said you studied nursing, what would you have studied otherwise?Sarah: Well, I first went into nursing because everyone since I was really little told me that I would be a good nurse. So I thought it was my calling in life. And then after taking lots and lots of science classes, which I'm really bad at, I decided to switch majors to education. And then I ended up liking that major, so I'm really happy that I switched.Adam: Was there any other major that you would find interesting that you might study if you went back or you're satisfied with education?Sarah: I'm glad I did education because I really liked that work wise. But if I had to go with things that I'm interested in, I probably would have been some sort of art major. Both of my siblings are artists, so it kind of runs in the family a little bit.Adam: What kind of art do you like?Sarah: Mainly dance, but I also was really into music growing up, so musical instruments and singing.Adam: So, do you have any friends that were interested in art or dance that you had in those times?Sarah: Not really. No, actually.Adam: Do you wish that if you were in a group of people that like the similar things that you might have pursued different interests.Sarah: Hmm, definitely. I wish I would have done more with dance. I was a ballerina for 12 years. And I gave up on that when I was 14. So I got to the level where I either had to train professionally to do that for a job or stay in a class where the younger girls would keep moving up. And so at that time, I quit.And although I don't wish I was still doing ballet, I wish I would continued some kind of dance.Adam: Interesting.Adam: So Sarah, any funny haircuts or anything like that?Sarah: Actually, yes. One week before I moved away to college, I cut my hair boy-short. And then after that, like during my first semester, I'd dyed it all different shades of red. And my hair has actually been pretty much every link and every natural-ish color.Adam: Wow. How did your friends and family respond to your red hair?Sarah: My mom didn't like it so much. She thought I was going to die like a natural red color, but it was more of fuchsia red color. So she didn't like it very much. But my friends and like siblings understood because I've always been very different and didn't really care what other people thought about how I looked.Adam: How long did you like it?Sarah: For a while until I wanted change. I love change, so I'd always switch it to something else.Adam: Well, that's great. Thanks, Sarah.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about do-overs. So if you had a time machine and you could go back to your college years, is there anything that you might change or do differently?Sarah: I really wish that I would have had the chance to study abroad. I chose the wrong major initially. I was a nursing major for two years, and worked really hard at a major I was really bad at. And then after two years, I switched schools and switched majors. And because of that, I had so many credits to take that I couldn't study abroad or do really any extra classes that were fun.Adam: Hmm, that must have been challenging. Where would you have liked to study abroad?Sarah: Really, anywhere. I've always loved to travel, so I would have been open to going anywhere.Adam: So you said you studied nursing, what would you have studied otherwise?Sarah: Well, I first went into nursing because everyone since I was really little told me that I would be a good nurse. So I thought it was my calling in life. And then after taking lots and lots of science classes, which I'm really bad at, I decided to switch majors to education. And then I ended up liking that major, so I'm really happy that I switched.Adam: Was there any other major that you would find interesting that you might study if you went back or you're satisfied with education?Sarah: I'm glad I did education because I really liked that work wise. But if I had to go with things that I'm interested in, I probably would have been some sort of art major. Both of my siblings are artists, so it kind of runs in the family a little bit.Adam: What kind of art do you like?Sarah: Mainly dance, but I also was really into music growing up, so musical instruments and singing.Adam: So, do you have any friends that were interested in art or dance that you had in those times?Sarah: Not really. No, actually.Adam: Do you wish that if you were in a group of people that like the similar things that you might have pursued different interests.Sarah: Hmm, definitely. I wish I would have done more with dance. I was a ballerina for 12 years. And I gave up on that when I was 14. So I got to the level where I either had to train professionally to do that for a job or stay in a class where the younger girls would keep moving up. And so at that time, I quit.And although I don't wish I was still doing ballet, I wish I would continued some kind of dance.Adam: Interesting.Adam: So Sarah, any funny haircuts or anything like that?Sarah: Actually, yes. One week before I moved away to college, I cut my hair boy-short. And then after that, like during my first semester, I'd dyed it all different shades of red. And my hair has actually been pretty much every link and every natural-ish color.Adam: Wow. How did your friends and family respond to your red hair?Sarah: My mom didn't like it so much. She thought I was going to die like a natural red color, but it was more of fuchsia red color. So she didn't like it very much. But my friends and like siblings understood because I've always been very different and didn't really care what other people thought about how I looked.Adam: How long did you like it?Sarah: For a while until I wanted change. I love change, so I'd always switch it to something else.Adam: Well, that's great. Thanks, Sarah.

Adam: Hi Sarah.Sarah: Hi.Adam: Today we're talking about do-overs. So if you had a time machine and you could go back to your college years, is there anything that you might change or do differently?Sarah: I really wish that I would have had the chance to study abroad. I chose the wrong major initially. I was a nursing major for two years, and worked really hard at a major I was really bad at. And then after two years, I switched schools and switched majors. And because of that, I had so many credits to take that I couldn't study abroad or do really any extra classes that were fun.Adam: Hmm, that must have been challenging. Where would you have liked to study abroad?Sarah: Really, anywhere. I've always loved to travel, so I would have been open to going anywhere.Adam: So you said you studied nursing, what would you have studied otherwise?Sarah: Well, I first went into nursing because everyone since I was really little told me that I would be a good nurse. So I thought it was my calling in life. And then after taking lots and lots of science classes, which I'm really bad at, I decided to switch majors to education. And then I ended up liking that major, so I'm really happy that I switched.Adam: Was there any other major that you would find interesting that you might study if you went back or you're satisfied with education?Sarah: I'm glad I did education because I really liked that work wise. But if I had to go with things that I'm interested in, I probably would have been some sort of art major. Both of my siblings are artists, so it kind of runs in the family a little bit.Adam: What kind of art do you like?Sarah: Mainly dance, but I also was really into music growing up, so musical instruments and singing.Adam: So, do you have any friends that were interested in art or dance that you had in those times?Sarah: Not really. No, actually.Adam: Do you wish that if you were in a group of people that like the similar things that you might have pursued different interests.Sarah: Hmm, definitely. I wish I would have done more with dance. I was a ballerina for 12 years. And I gave up on that when I was 14. So I got to the level where I either had to train professionally to do that for a job or stay in a class where the younger girls would keep moving up. And so at that time, I quit.And although I don't wish I was still doing ballet, I wish I would continued some kind of dance.Adam: Interesting.Adam: So Sarah, any funny haircuts or anything like that?Sarah: Actually, yes. One week before I moved away to college, I cut my hair boy-short. And then after that, like during my first semester, I'd dyed it all different shades of red. And my hair has actually been pretty much every link and every natural-ish color.Adam: Wow. How did your friends and family respond to your red hair?Sarah: My mom didn't like it so much. She thought I was going to die like a natural red color, but it was more of fuchsia red color. So she didn't like it very much. But my friends and like siblings understood because I've always been very different and didn't really care what other people thought about how I looked.Adam: How long did you like it?Sarah: For a while until I wanted change. I love change, so I'd always switch it to something else.Adam: Well, that's great. Thanks, Sarah.

For more than 20 years, EB Medicine has been producing peer-reviewed, evidence-based emergency medicine treatment guidelines for doctors on the front lines. It’s important to stay abreast of the latest trends and discoveries in any industry, but when your job is caring for people who are gravely sick or injured, up-to-date information on best practices and advancements is all the more vital. So even in a normal year, the service that EB Medicine provides for its subscribers is critical. But 2020 is not a normal year, and with emergency room physicians on the front-lines of the pandemic, CEO Stephanie Williford and the team at EB Medicine had to rise to the occasion to support their members. Stephanie mentions that, because her team is made of experts and medical professionals, her editors were flagging the growing need to cover the coronavirus way back in February—long before it was on the general public’s radar. The challenge was that the editorial team at EB Medicine is not in the business of breaking news. They typically operate on a longer cycle—about nine months to one year—to produce their content. But with coronavirus, their timeline became condensed. Doctors who saw their emergency rooms filling up with ailing patients needed immediate guidance on how to best provide care. Stephanie and her team worked long nights and weekends to rapidly disseminate information to their subscribers. They also reconsidered how they gated their content, not wanting to bar any medical professionals or hospital groups who had financial concerns from being able to access the content. As the team has adjusted to this new pace and workflow, they now look towards the future. Stephanie notes that, contrary to what some outside the industry may think, the medical profession is hurting financially right now. With most elective surgeries and procedures paused for months during the first surge of the virus, some hospitals and medical groups are in dire straits. How will this affect EB Medicine’s subscriber base moving forward? That’s certainly something Stephanie is thinking a lot about. Members of the Chat’s audience chimed in with some creative solutions to finding the middle ground between continuing to serve the company’s audience while securing revenue growth for the long run. In the end, what Stephanie and her team remain most committed to is making sure that their members feel supported so that they’re well-positioned to care for their patients. Episode Transcript Rob Ristagno: Many emergency physicians are going through the most challenging year of their careers. The ER is a high pressure environment in normal times. The coronavirus has only amplified that reality. On this episode, we sit down with the CEO of a publisher in the emergency medicine industry. When the pandemic hit, her organization had to accelerate processes and innovate quickly to provide our healthcare heroes with the vital information they need to stay ahead of the curve. Announcer: This is the CEO Campfire Chat, with your host Rob Ristagno. Taped in front of a live studio audience, join us to hear successful growth stories for middle market companies, just like yours. Sponsored by the Sterling Woods Group. Rob Ristagno: Welcome to the CEO Campfire Chat. I'm your host, Robert Ristagno and I'm honored to introduce my friend, Stephanie Williford, the CEO of EB Medicine. Thanks for coming on the show today. Stephanie Williford: Thanks Rob. Rob Ristagno: For those of us not familiar with EB Medicine, tell us a little bit about what you do. Stephanie Williford: Sure. EB Medicine is an evidence-based education provider and CME provider. We've been around since 1999. The EB in our name stands for evidence-based. It reflects our philosophy that that should be the guiding force in medicine. And all of our content is written by practicing emergency physicians and peer-reviewed by practicing physicians as well, because our goal is to provide really practical, relevant information that practicing clinicians can use on their next shift after they use our content. Rob Ristagno: Sounds to me like your customers, emergency physicians, are on the front lines of all things coronavirus. Before we jump into how you manage that, let's rewind the clock. Let's rewind it back to January 1, 2020. No one had any idea that the pandemic was on its way. What were your goals for 2020? What were you hoping to accomplish? Stephanie Williford: Yeah, so well that feels like about a million years ago at this point, but we really start every year with the same guiding principle, which is focusing on our customers and what their needs are. We do regular surveys and the number one thing that our customers have been asking us for, for a couple of years, is a mobile app. We came into this year really wanting to develop that, figure out exactly what they were looking for and how that would add value to our content and to their clinical practice.  We also were looking at developing or expanding our content so that it would be more accessible and usable at the point of care. And then we were looking at some, I guess you could call operational areas. We wanted to implement an auto renew program just to make it easier for customers to continue getting access to their content and developing curricula for practice providers was also on our radar. And a big focus as well that we wanted to work on was our brand. We, I mentioned, we launched in 1999, we really haven't done anything since then to update even the look and feel of our journals or our brand message and positioning, and we felt like that was something we really needed to focus on and make sure that we had a clear and consistent message that we're putting out there and that we're reaching and appealing to the younger audience because we found that we really not attracting as many of the younger folk as we would like to. Rob Ristagno: Got you. Big slate of initiatives, very optimistic, lots of customer driven ideas, as you mentioned. You had a full plate, I'm sure you're very busy, and then COVID strikes. Tell us a little bit, what's going through your mind when things start? Let's say we're in early March and things start to look like, oh wait, this is serious. This is something that's just not going to pass us by kind of, what were your initial inklings? Stephanie Williford: Honestly, I did not expect it to have the impact that it's had it. Maybe I just was naive, but in terms of literally across the globe in every industry and every person in the world has been impacted by this in some way. And I just, I didn't quite anticipate that, but I will give credit to our editorial team who did and understand how important it was going to be for us to cover this. Obviously emergency physicians were impacted probably more than most and we're not in the news business. We don't normally rapid-fire turn out content or new information. It often takes nine to 12 months for us to produce an article. It's not normal for us to say, "Oh, this is something we need to cover." But actually in early February, our team said, "No, we really need to do this and our customers are going to need this information and it's really important that we be there. And even though there's not a lot of evidence yet, because this thing literally just happened, there is some evidence that is available already and there is a lot of expert advice and there's a lot of experience with it internationally that we can learn from." And we were lucky that we had an editorial board member from Italy who was able to give us recommendations and lessons learned from that. We did start producing content very quickly and very early on. Rob Ristagno: Did you have to change any of your processes there to get, you said it usually takes several months, you're working months ahead and you're not used to quote unquote “reporting the news.” Kind of, how did you have to change some of your processes? And how did that go over? Stephanie Williford: I don't know that we changed things so much because we still think it's incredibly important to have the vetting process and have the content peer-reviewed, make sure that it's accurate and relevant and practical. The biggest change was just accelerating it to an incredible degree. And we were lucky that the physicians that we worked with, we had several, our editor-in-chief is at Mount Sinai in New York and he had several people on his team that were willing to put the time in to create the content.  And then we, our editorial team worked nights and weekends to get it done and our online content team to get it posted and then the marketing team to get the messaging out there. And so it wasn't, I don't know that we changed the process so much. It's just everybody really dove in, all hands on deck and let's get this done and make it happen, which was really amazing and I'm very proud of our team for what they did. Rob Ristagno: It's good to see when everyone gets, I love the all hands on deck situation. And it sounds like this actually was initiated from your editorial team thinking about the customer first. You had a bit of an advanced warning system built in there because you're good at listening to your customers and figuring out their needs.  Okay let's fast forward again a little bit now, it's becoming not only serious to your team, but serious to the world at large, what's going on? What are you thinking? What are you reprioritizing? What are you focused on? Stephanie Williford: Focus, my team would love it if I could focus on one thing. There's still so much to do. No, we were actually able to proceed with a lot of the things that we wanted to work on. We did put our auto-renew program in place, took longer than expected, but we kept kind of working on that in the background.  We are still investigating mobile app options and that. We back-burnered a couple of things - so the advanced practice clinician group curricula we put on hold. We had actually wanted to pilot that at a hospital this year and obviously they were like, we have no ability to do that right now. That's been put on hold, but we are still focusing on a lot of the things that we wanted to.  We did pivot quite a bit in terms of wanting to capitalize - kind of hate to use that word in this situation, but - on the traffic that we were getting from COVID, because we had over a 100,000 visitors to our COVID article, which in comparison to maybe five to 10,000 visitors that we would get for a regular article. Rob Ristagno: Okay, wow. Stephanie Williford: Then we said, "Okay, well, now these people are coming what do we do with them? How do we get them to sign up for an email list or subscribe? And so we had a lot of conversations about that and we made changes to our website and our marketing strategy to take advantage of that situation. Rob Ristagno: You had a big surge in traffic. I want to actually pause here for a second, just maybe some other people in the audience here have some thoughts on things that you had to shelve, things going into 2020 you thought were high priority but you had to shelve some them because of COVID and other priorities took precedence. Any stories to share there? Any similar stories? Audience Member 1: I will add on the second part is nothing that we shelved, but we accelerated the launch of a number of new products. We were just launching them as fast as we could this spring, because they were working and the market, other than a very brief three week period, the stock market was strong and investors were interested in buying and we didn't know how long it would last so we thought, things we are going to be launching in the fall, we launched in the spring. It was a very busy spring for us. Rob Ristagno: Got you. It sounds like another example of all hands on deck, everyone chipping in, going above and beyond. And this for anyone in the group, how do we bottle that magic? It seemed like we got everyone rallied against the cause, doing new things much more quickly than expected and outside their comfort zone and learning and growing. Unfortunately took a crisis. Any lessons here, stuff we can note and try to inspire this in other ways? Fred: It's hard to maintain a sense of urgency. Very hard. Audience Member 1: The only thing I think is being prepared. I just remember a professor in college and grad school used to say, "Never waste a perfectly good crisis." And so, to Fred's point, I don't think you can artificially stay sustain that for very long at all, but being ready to jump on it as quickly as possible gets you the most mileage out of it I think. Rob Ristagno: There's some adage about preparation and luck and I'm going to botch it if I try to say it, but if you're prepared and ready and had a good culture already in place, I think that allows you to, I also hate to use the word capitalize, Stephanie, but allows you to respond quickly when there's a crisis.  Okay, great. Back to Stephanie, your traffic windfall, 10 to 20 times increase in the number of people coming to your website. What are some things you tried that worked? And maybe what are some things you tried that didn't pan out as you'd hoped? Stephanie Williford: That's a really good question. One thing that we did that has worked well, which seems obvious, but we implemented, we just took out a step in our checkout process. It's something that we had thought about doing for a while, because the quicker and easier it is for them to get through that, the better, but we just never got around to it. And we were looking at our abandoned cart rate and thinking, well, shoot, we're getting more people than we've ever gotten, if just a few more of them could complete the cart process, then the revenue potential was huge. We cut a step out, that's worked very well. We also implemented a pop up in the cart. I think, can't remember if it was an on exit pop up or I think it was just a time delay. We looked at how long people typically were in the cart and left. And then we had the pop up occur a little bit before that so the people that we were likely to lose, we were keeping and the ones that were likely to continued anyways, didn't get the additional discount because why give away the money if they were going to order anyways? One thing that we tried that did not work well was attempting to gate some of the COVID content. I will say we did that rather late because we didn't have an easy mechanism to make that happen on our site where you enter your email address and then get access to it. We ended up doing it on some content that was more specific than our audience generally likes because it was in a very focused area, administrative and less clinical type thing.  It didn't get as much traffic as some of the other content anyways. And then the traffic that it did get, most of them didn't end up getting to see the content and the conversion rate actually was very good on the email sign up form. I guess it worked and it didn't work at the same time because we had a good conversion rate, but there wasn't enough traffic to the page to really make it worth it so we ended up ungating that content. What I think I would do differently, and hindsight being 20/20, is I would have been reluctant to have gated all the COVID content, even just asking for an email address because people were so insistent that they needed access to it quickly and they didn't want any barriers to that. We also got a lot of international exposure and associations and organizations reaching out to us because it was free. And I think if we had even asked for an email address, they would have been less likely to link to it and share it and things like that. But I think we could have played around with that a little bit more, maybe had portions of it in front of the paywall and then other portions not paywall, but at least gating it and requiring an email address to collect email names, to collect more earlier on. Rob Ristagno: Got you. Got you. Okay. You had this surge in traffic. What other changes did you experience from a sales and marketing perspective? Stephanie Williford: Well, we were worried that it would have a big impact on our larger group sales and site license sales - so we have about 70% of our revenue comes from individual practicing clinicians and the other 30% comes from hospitals or groups that are purchasing it on behalf of their clinicians. And we were very worried that the hospitals, since they were taking a big hit financially, were going to just pull the plug on everything, that we wouldn't be able to close any new deals, that renewals would struggle. And our account executive was really great about reaching out to the customers that we had and staying in touch with them. We made sure that we were just sending them a lot of resources and information, things about COVID and to help their team trying not to push the sale, but just be there for them and provide value. And we were very glad and very lucky that we didn't see the big decrease that we expected. We actually re-forecasted, anticipating that it could go away. And so far that has not happened. Although I will say we tend to feel the impact of economic downturns, recessions a lot later than other industries.  Even going back to ’08 and the crisis that occurred then, we didn't really feel it until ’09. It took so much longer to get through it and medicine and healthcare is relatively stable. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop, but the plan we use then and that we're using now as sort of a hope for the best, but expect the worst. To your poll earlier, we're cautiously optimistic and I'm watching things carefully. Rob Ristagno: This episode of the CEO Campfire Chat podcast is brought to you by the Sterling Woods Group. Middle market executives and private equity investors need to achieve rapid revenue growth, but face limited resources and time. We've developed a proven system to quickly and confidently uncover your best opportunities for growth so that you can scale up and maximize exit value. To learn more about our proprietary data driven approach, check out sterlingwoods.com. Rob Ristagno: Anyone else in the audience here - sounds like Stephanie took care of her best customers. There were some customers affected. Actually, by the way, I don't think it's common knowledge that hospitals are in bad shape. People might falsely assume that hospitals are doing well, but it's really all the elective stuff that's been put on pause and so they really aren't doing very well. Anyone else in the audience had a segment of their customer base really negatively affected? And how did you stay ahead of the curve, work on building that relationship and help them out? Adam: Well, just a question. I have a, this is probably not very good data, but I have one client who's an emergency room physician who was cut back by 30% and so did you feel an impact from those smaller hospitals? I don't know if he's a subscriber. I have no idea, but he may, I don't need to do this now because I'm cutting back on my expenses? Stephanie Williford: Yeah. It has been a challenge. To Rob's point, the elective procedures getting essentially eliminated had a huge financial impact on the hospitals. And the other side is actual ED volumes, non COVID-related have been down and still have not returned. And they don't anticipate them returning soon.  Hospitals have been reducing shifts, significantly cutting back their CME budgets or eliminating them. And we've had customers that have reached out to us and said, "I can't afford this anymore. I don't have a budget, I need this, I want the information." And we work with them, if it's okay, let me give you a three months free extension or let's do a monthly billing option or we can offer a discount. We've tried to be really flexible and understanding with that to meet their needs and keep providing them with the information that they really do need. It helps them improve patient care and they realize and recognize that. But yeah, it's definitely been something we've had to address. Audience Member 2: Can I ask you two questions? Stephanie Williford: Sure. Audience Member 2: Do you have an ad revenue model at all? Is there no advertisement? Stephanie Williford: We do not have any advertisements. Audience Member 2: And printed content is the only delivery that you have? You don't have video, you don't have podcasts, you don't have anything like that? Stephanie Williford: We do have a monthly podcast and we are starting to do more video content. We don't produce a lot of it ourselves. We partner with organizations and other individual physicians. Audience Member 2: Video can give you tremendous legitimacy, with some of that - and my son is involved with something that has completely radically changed, particularly the COVID environment. Changed by doing training, if you will. And I don't know how it's applicable as to what you have, but creating subject matter expertise that they connect the videos a lot more than they do with printed word. And it has worked out marvelously for them. Stephanie Williford: Yeah, that's a great point. And actually, one of the things I didn't mention, our marketing director really advocated for doing a webinar series because she said, "Well, if ever there was a time to launch that it would be now when they can't go to conferences." And we did two in June that we were very successful. We got great attendance. We offered them for free. We wanted to see if people would show up. Because previously our audience hasn't really been interested in a webinar format, they do like video content, but more focused on short procedural or how to.  But that worked well and now we're looking at what we want to do next with that. And we just did a survey this week about video content and what they're looking for. You're a 100% on target with that. Audience Member 2: Well, the last thing is, do you have the ability for somebody to search by voice versus typing in what they want through your content? Do you rely on other people to do the search mechanism? Stephanie Williford: I'm still trying to get the type in search correct so no, we're not at the voice level yet. Audience Member 2: Well, that's where the future is going. That's why I bring it up. Rob Ristagno: Did you do any paid advertising during COVID? And if so, how did that work? Stephanie Williford: Yes, well, we were doing paid Google ads before and continued that. We've increased the budget for that. We also started doing social media ads just in the last month. Actually, I was on this Campfire Chat a couple months ago when Mark presented their successes with social media and I ran back to my team and was like, "We should do this." And they did make it happen. We had good success with Facebook ads when we started those in June.  We're now on LinkedIn and Twitter and experimenting with those. And so far we've seen really good ROIs. Actually it does not cost a lot of money. Well, I guess it depends on your industry, and keywords, at least for us in the space that we're in. And we've been able to see pretty good returns on that. We've mainly been promoting and selling the actual subscription. We might test doing lead generation efforts. A little bit more reluctant to do that because it's harder to measure over time whether or not they actually convert and the cost can be a lot higher. But I know that's very effective for others so we're looking at that. Rob Ristagno: It's terrific to hear your team stepped up, completely maintained a sense of urgency. Are you seeing any fatigue now? And if so, how are you managing it? Stephanie Williford: Yeah, they're incredible. They work really, really hard and there's definitely a sense more often than I would like to admit of feeling overworked and overwhelmed. We talk a lot about that as a management team of how do we better focus our energy and our time? We need to not take on so much. It's a conversation we have on a regular basis. I honestly, I have to take responsibility for that because I can be a bit of a shiny object chaser at times and want to capitalize on every new opportunity that walks in the door. Rob Ristagno: I think that's in the job description for any CEO. Stephanie Williford: Yeah, we've worked on creating criteria, how to evaluate a new partner opportunity or something like that, so that we're not just going after it. We've gotten really good, or much better at strategizing and then staying focused on that. We meet every month as a management team to look at what our big initiatives and priorities are. And I am trying to make a point every time of crossing something off the list, rather than adding to it. I cannot say that I do a great job of that, but I try. Rob Ristagno: Anyone have to have some advice or wisdom to share in terms of avoiding this shiny object? Because on one hand you don't want to have FOMO [fear of missing out]. You don't want to, oh, I missed, it wasn't really shiny object, it's the future. But on the other hand, there's something about focus and deploying your resources in an effective way rather than spreading them too thin. Wisdom, thoughts, experiences people want to share? Adam: This is Adam. I feel like you should set aside a specified time and number of hours during the week for stretch, crazy, bonkers, left field thinking goals, whatever you want to call it. And whether it's putting your feet up on your desk and staring at the ceiling and letting ideas flow or networking with someone you haven't talked to in 10 years and getting ideas that way, whatever it is, but pick out time dedicated to not doing your normal work and then let your mind go and then get back to the grindstone. Glen: This is Glen. I struggle with this a lot too, so I don't have any good data except to tell you there's a great book called Deep Work and another called Essentialism, which I'm trying to learn how to use. Rob Ristagno: The books are there. We just need to figure out how to put it into use. Glen: Right. That's a little bit harder to do. Audience Member 1: Stephanie, you've told me before, I think you actually have a good system for kind of keeping that in check. And so you didn't get to answer that question, but I wanted to throw that to you because I think you have a good perspective on it. Stephanie Williford: Thank you. Well, we've tried to get better at it. We created a few years ago, what we call our vision criteria, which is how we measure new ideas against the vision and mission of the company. And the three kind of pillars are that it has to be high quality, high value and high impact. And we define what each of those things mean for us. We do try to use that as a vetting process, but even sometimes I forget to use it myself, but it can be very effective when we do. Rob Ristagno: Hey, Stephanie, what are some things that you think have changed your business forever? Things you were dealing with a surge in demand, dealing with a spike in traffic, dealing in changing customer preferences. What's going to stick versus what's going to go back to normal if there ever is a normal again? Stephanie Williford: That's a good question. In a lot of ways, everything changes and everything stays the same. I think we still will be focused on providing evidence based content that's really practical and useful. We still want to continue evolving our formats and the interactivity and the usability of our website.  I honestly don't know that we've made some huge change that that forever will stick. I think a lot of it, some of it is culture wise. We're capable of doing things that we might not have thought we could do to produce content that was that important that quickly. And really, I think I want to build on a lot of those successes and keep the team motivated and moving forward, continuing to think about innovation and focusing on the customer. I think that's still going to stay front and center for us. Adam: This Adam again, have you considered moving to a model specifically addressing the crazy COVID times, which is if you're able to continue your current payment plan, please do so but for those who are struggling, we want to support you. Pay what you can, pay what you want and then we'll revisit in six months, 12 months, what have you. We're still showing you our customers the love, but you're not over quote unquote overcharging based on their budget.  You could also marry that to a gift sponsorship program. Hey, you got a few extra bucks in your pocket, help offset our costs, help your colleagues in the industry to still maintain and receive this information. Create a sense of camaraderie amongst your membership base. Stephanie Williford: We have not talked about that, but I love that idea. I'm definitely going to put some thought into that, how we could do that. I think that's a really smart approach. Audience Member 1: Adam, have you done something like that that's worked? Adam: Take the example from a number of restaurants and other businesses I've seen do this, which is pay what you think is right. I personally did that with a consulting project in Australia once and I just had the guy, you can pay me anything or something, it is totally up to you. They actually paid me more than I was expecting. Great, but I said, "I want to be fair to you. You tell me what value you've received." And it worked out, I think very well for both parties. Audience Member 1: My concern for that with in a restaurant, if you know the owner and the chef and you love the food and you walk in and they know your name and know your table, there's a strong bond there.  These are hospitals. Some are private equity-backed and some are not for profit. It's hard for me to see them of their own, stepping up to help Stephanie. But if you put the message out there to everybody, "Hey, we're open to taking less than full fare," rather than waiting for them to say, "I can't do it anymore." I've got to lapse and then we talk, I'd just be concerned that you're going to take everybody stepping up and saying, "Yeah, I can't pay the full freight right now." And that you could take a massive hit there. That would scare the heck out of me to go that route in your environment. But I could be wrong. Stephanie Williford: They may be trusted on a small basis first. Let's see how it goes. Audience Member 1: I could be wrong, I just wouldn't jump in with both feet. Yeah. Rob Ristagno: It reminds me of, from an HR standpoint, companies who move to unlimited vacation, they actually find that fewer people take vacation. It could go either way. There's always a risk that no one shows up in August or you can see that. It's probably a lot in the execution and the nuances of it. But sounds like something that's worth a test. Audience Member 3: Stephanie, is there any way, if you had clients that couldn't pay the fare and you're going to be losing them, is there a task they could provide to you to reimburse you in some way? A new topic, an experience? I agree with Ed completely. In any of our consulting practices, we do that, we would decrease our margin by 50% overnight. Just, we wouldn't lose them, but we'd certainly cut our margin. But if you provide them with the dignity of doing something to continue to get your valued services, then they're contributing in it. I think he got a chance to build a stronger longterm relationship with them. Stephanie Williford: Yeah, it's interesting. I was thinking about too, for the customers that have lapsed, but there's less risk there as well. And I am also thinking it could work better for individuals, particularly those that have been with us for a long time, which is a question, if you've been a subscriber for five or even 10 years and all of a sudden didn't renew, really, we should be reaching out to them and asking what's going on? And how can we help you? It's a good opportunity to open that door for discussion. Audience Member 4: I feel like a referral code to work well there. Refer a friend and get. Audience Member 3: Bring us a new customer and you get a 25% discount for your own subscription. Stephanie Williford: Yeah, that's a great point. We have a large percentage of our new orders are referrals already and that's without even asking or encouraging them to do it. That seems like an easy win for sure. Rob Ristagno: I have one more, Stephanie. I understand in your limited spare time, you're launching a brand new association organization. I think it would be of a lot of interest to a lot of people in the listening audience and the folks in the live audience today. You want to tell us a little bit about it? Stephanie Williford: Yes. I would love to. Thank you for asking. It's called SME Meetup. It stands for Subscription Membership and Events. We are really aiming to bring a community of people together to very much like this, discuss ideas, share what's worked, what hasn't, new opportunities, challenges and questions. We started with a Slack channel where there's daily discussions about these kinds of topics. And we just kicked off this month, a webinar series and round tables on different topics. We have one for marketing, another for events and then there's one for strategy and growth for executives and owners.  We're just, we're building it out. We have over a 160 members already on the Slack channel and it's totally free. We're open to everybody. Would love for people to join and participate in the discussions online, register to attend the webinars. It's so new I don't even have a website to tell you to go to yet so if you're interested, you can email me at sw@ebmedicine.net. I can say that slower. It's S-W, my initials, Stephanie Williford @ebmedicine.net and I will send you the link and get you signed up. Rob Ristagno: And what about people in the listening audience who happen to be emergency physicians or maybe are related to or friends or loved ones with emergency physicians, ebmedicine.net, anything else that you want to call their attention to? Stephanie Williford: Yes, we would love to connect with emergency physicians and their friends and family, so ebmedicine.net is our website. Tells all about us and there is a lot of free content that's available. You can check it out and share resources with colleagues as well. Rob Ristagno: Right. Well, please join me in giving a virtual round of applause to Stephanie Williford. Thanks for spending time with us. We learned a lot from you and your story and congratulations in all the successes you've had. This has been the CEO Campfire Chat podcast with your host Robert Ristagno. Be sure to check out ceocampfirechat.com to subscribe for the email companion, listen to past episodes and to take a two minute assessment to see how you can grow your business. That's all for now. See you at the next chat. Rob Ristagno: Go with your gut, follow your heart, trust your intuition. We've heard this kind of advice before, and sometimes it works. Like when you're trying to decide what movie to binge tonight. Or you're on the fence about asking her out for that second date. Or you have a sneaking suspicion about which neighborhood dog keeps digging up your lawn.  But it's not the way to make major business decisions. When you're facing challenges with growing your revenue, it's not enough to rely on instinct. That's why we've developed a data-driven solution to help you easily unearth your best opportunities for growth. No guesswork required. To learn more about our system, go to sterlingwoods.com.

If you’re looking for insights into the trends of the eCommerce industry, look no further than Adam Rose, the Chief Talent Officer, of eCommerce Placement. Adam has had a long career as a recruiter, including the last decade at eCommerce Placement, the company he founded to focus on the industry he believed was the future. That bet has paid off, and as the eCommerce industry has grown and changed, Adam has been in the middle of it all. What are the skills eCommerce based businesses are looking for? Where are eCommerce leaders focusing their attention and investing in growth? How is consumer behavior leading the shifts we’re seeing in the industry and how can those working in the industry be successful using analysis of that behavior? Which industries and companies are emerging as big-time players in the eCommerce landscape? Adam has the answers to all of those questions, and he shared them with us on this episode of Up Next in Commerce.   3 Takeaways: Ecommerce offers positions of the future, and right now very few colleges are offering programs that prepare students for them. Those who want to get into the industry need to be lifelong learners and seek out new knowledge Consumer behavior has completely changed, and industries are seeing a shift that they thought they would have years to prepare for, happen in just a few months. That has led to a movement to build Ecommerce teams quicker than ever before CPG companies are starting to heavily invest in Ecommerce, which presents an opportunity for people who want to work in Ecommerce the ability to work in a newly-entrepreneurial environment but with more resources For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postals. And today I have Adam Rose on the show. How's it going? Adam: It's going great. Thank you. Really happy to be here. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you here too. Tell me how did you first get involved in the world of e-commerce? What led you to create this company? Adam: Yeah. So eCommerce Placement, we are a leading e-commerce recruitment firm and what we do is we work with online retailers, e-commerce technology companies, really anyone that touches upon e-commerce. And we're recruiting across the full spectrum of e-commerce functional areas. So that's leadership roles, strategy and management, digital marketing across the whole channels, site merchandising, operations, analytics, logistics and fulfillment, creative technology, the entire gamut. And we've been doing this for 10 years and e-commerce as you know has been growing year after year. So we're just very fortunate to be in this space and one that's really interesting. Adam: Yeah. So, well I've actually been in recruitment my entire career. It is all I know and all I can do. But I went to school and I have a bachelor's degree from Rutgers in psychology and realized I didn't really want to be a psychologist, but I minored in labor and employment relations, which is essentially HR. And that got me into thinking about recruitment or HR as a career. And I ended up getting my masters in HR manager at Rutgers as well. And when I got out of school, I started in more of a generalist HR role at a financial services company doing benefits and compensation and recruitment. And the recruitment piece is what I really liked and decided that's what I wanted to stick with. So I was doing recruitment for several different financial services companies and then a little bit of pharmaceutical as well. And it wasn't until I landed a corporate recruiting position at Borderfree that I got into e-commerce. And Borderfree was a startup e-commerce software as a service company. Adam: And what they did was they allowed US-based online retailers to sell their products overseas to international customers seamlessly. Just like if they were here within the US, yes. And we had about 50 employees at the time when I joined and I grew that company to about 350 before it was sold to Pitney Bowes, much larger organization. Yes, but it was there that I saw that e-commerce was a really hot industry, that folks were still figuring it out. It was a really cool industry if you're an entrepreneur, if you like startup environments, which I did, very different from financial services and pharmaceutical. And I saw that there was a huge need for e-commerce specific recruiting agencies out there. We were working with some of the larger recruitment firms that were just very generalists. They didn't focus in e-commerce, but they were trying to help us regardless. Adam: And I saw that they just didn't have a good understanding of what we did, the types of candidates that we needed, where they'd be coming from, what they'll be doing. And after a while I said to myself that I could do that. I see what these agency recruiters are doing on their end and honestly it seems better than what I'm doing on the corporate side because they're not having to deal with a lot of the paperwork that I have to do, a lot of the internal struggles that I have. And they were doing the best part of recruiting, in my opinion, which is just proactively going out there and sourcing top talent. And that's what got me into recruiting in the first place and got me excited about it. I think it's one of the most strategic parts of business is bringing in the right talent, without that talent that your business may not be so successful. So that's really what got me thinking about making the switch and 10 years later I'm really glad that I did. Adam: And what we're really good at right now is just the fact that over the past 10 years, we've built this huge e-commerce talent network. We have our proprietary database of candidates, we utilize LinkedIn where we have a huge network and following there. And that's a differentiator that a lot of other recruitment firms don't have. And we're also building very longterm relationships with prospective candidates, following them throughout their career. Just being there for them, regardless of whether or not we have opportunities for them in providing advice around their resume, around their career goals and that playing the longterm game is, in this business, I think very important. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, that's exciting. So how do you vet talent? Because it seems like, at least when I was at Google Day's interview questions were kind of hard to rely on because people would get through and you'd be like, "How did you get here? You definitely don't belong here." So what are some good tips that you could give to other e-commerce brands who are looking to hire? What kind of interview questions or tactics or strategies do you do to vet candidates to make sure that they're the right fit for the company and actually have the knowledge that's needed? Adam: Yeah. So the first thing is that the company itself really has to have a good idea of what their needs are. And that's our job too, is working with them initially to make sure that we're all on the same page. And a lot of times our clients don't even have job descriptions created. And then we have to work with them directly to create that job description and make sure that everything's buttoned up so that when we are going out there and trying to identify the right candidate and speaking with them, we have really good sense of what they're looking for. And I'm talking to them about what their day to day job looks like, the responsibilities, where these people should be coming from and what their soft skills are needed for these positions, everything. And then we go out there and we take a look and do some research to what similar companies, what are some of the competitors out there that maybe we should be tapping into? Adam: Job titles may differ between organizations too. So we'll make a list of all the different job titles that could potentially match this position. And then we'll do an extensive search on that end. And then once we get them on the phone, it's really just conversational. We don't do very hard hitting questions. Our goal is just to make sure that A, the candidate is interested, that this would be something that they could potentially see themselves doing in the future and that they also have the right skillset for it. And that comes out during a conversation when you're just asking them, tell me a bit about your experience. Walk through your background with me. Do you have experience on this side of the business? And if not, is that something that you think you could tackle in your next role? So it's really just getting to know the person. Adam: And then what we do is we send a summary of their experience, their resume, their compensation expectations over to the client and they decide from there whether or not they think this person might be the right fit and they'll get them on the phone and usually to do an initial phone interview and go from there. But what we aim to do is really focus on quality over quantity. There are a lot of recruitment firms out there that kind of give us a bad rap by sending over 100 candidates for a position and- Stephanie: These people I Googled and they're looking for work on LinkedIn. Adam: Exactly, exactly. And hoping that one of them sticks and they're just throwing them at the wall. But we don't do that. We send over three, four, maybe five candidates and these are all people that we feel you would at least benefit from by getting on a call with them. And our resume to hire ratio is insanely high. Our interview to hire ratio's insanely high and we're really proud of that. Stephanie: That's awesome. So are there any skills that these e-commerce company companies specifically are looking for that are hard to kind of find right now? Like there was a shortage and people who knew... engineers always refer to engineers out here, is there a skill where all the companies want this right now and if you had the skill you would get scooped up but I can't find it. Adam: You're totally right about engineering. Any technology position is incredibly valuable right now for e-commerce organizations. And that's everything from engineering to product management, which is a really interesting field for a lot of people to get into that really makes this business strategy and technology that I try to steer people into because they're always needed. Stephanie: And that's not actually a career path that you're told about in the early days. I know I heard about product management, I'm like, "What does that actually mean?" And then, well you kind of should be a little bit technical and you should also have a strategic hat on when you're thinking, I'm like, "I've never heard of this when I came out of college. Why not?" Adam: That's right, that's right. These are roles that people really just fall into. And that's across all of e-commerce. There are very few colleges out there that offer any type of program in e-commerce. So when you get a degree in marketing, you may not be thinking about e-commerce marketing. It's a very vast field and that's just an example. So these are positions of the future that I try to steer new grads into or those that are looking to make a career change because this is an incredible field. But getting back to your question, our hottest positions right now are anything related to Amazon. Companies are really doubling down on their Amazon business, whether it be a marketing or sales, channel management, Amazon is huge. It's the elephant in the room, right? So- Stephanie: It seems obvious, but when I hear that I'm like, "Oh, I wouldn't think about hiring for a role specifically focused on Amazon," but it makes. Adam: Yeah, Amazon, other marketplaces, retailer.com channels. If you're a brand or manufacturer of products that are sold on Overstock, Wayfair, Zulily, you need to manage your online sales strategy and execution on those sites. So there are roles that are specifically focused on doing that as opposed to their direct to consumer channel off their own website. It's a very vast and complex e-commerce industry. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's really interesting. How would someone develop skills for an Amazon specific role? It seems like you would have to maybe be a seller on Amazon and to know all the ins and outs. You would actually have to have been there, done that to be able to help another company? Adam: Yeah. So, yes. And part of what we get tasked to do is go out there and find individuals that have very relevant skill sets that can come in day one and hit the ground running. And that's what we're good at. But when I advise people on how to get that experience, you have to start small. You have to take on additional responsibilities. If you're in a direct to consumer role right now and you're specialist, start taking on more general generalist responsibilities, start dipping your feet into Amazon and just start asking questions and learn because this is the future and this is how you grow in your e-commerce career. E-commerce is really cross-functional. You need to work across all different departments. Across marketing and merchandising and promotions and fulfillment in no matter what role you're in. And you're going to have to deal with e-commerce metrics and web analytics in almost every role that you're in. Adam: So that's another question I get for individuals that are looking to get into e-commerce and they don't know how to do it and they don't know how to differentiate themselves. Maybe they've been working on the retail side, the retail brick and mortar side, and they're seeing everything that's going on now and they're like, "Oh, Adam, I really want to get into e-commerce. How do I differentiate myself? What do I do to get my foot in the door?" And one of the things I always recommend is get certified in Google Analytics. It's free. Google, they allow you to do this on their site. They have a program. And that's something that is incredibly important for you to know. Almost every company uses Google Analytics in some way even if they do have a more sophisticated web analytics software and it's free and you can put it on your resume and it's great to talk about during interviews. So things like that and I think are really important. Stephanie: Got it. Well, how do you see the industry changing? Seems like e-commerce, of course, is changing really quickly and when I think about having... I mean, I love Google, I work there. But I think having Google Analytics as a certification, what's next? Because I know at least on our side, when it comes to marketing campaigns and things like that, Google Analytics isn't somewhere that we utilize anyways even if we're not e-commerce. But I'm thinking about what's coming next after that? What are the next platforms or tools or technologies or focus areas maybe that would come after that that someone could dive deep into along with Google Analytics because they are a force used by everyone in the industry too. Adam: Yeah, no, it's a good question. And there are new platforms coming out all the time. There are platforms that are getting acquired left and right. There are tons of different marketing technologies out there, whether they're related to paid search or email marketing. What I find is that companies, for the most part, don't really care what you have experienced in as long as you have some sort of experience in these technologies because you can pick it up. It doesn't take a genius to figure these out, but it does take someone that has a digital mindset or somebody that really could tackle the complexities of these different programs. Adam: But if you've mastered one, it's really not that hard to master others. So yes, there are new platforms and new technologies coming out all the time and you really should do your best to update your skillset. But from my perspective, companies, in terms of what they're requiring, you don't need to have experience across all of these different tools. Which is good because how are you going to get your hands on Adobe Analytics if your company is not using it? It's very difficult, right? So I think it's important to demonstrate your ability to learn these new programs first and foremost. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. That's what we look for when... whenever I'm going through the hiring process here, I look for more of like, do you have the ability to learn something and you have experience showing that you've tried new things and learn new things. You don't have to know exactly how to use Adobe Audition, but could you pick it up because you've tried it? A different tool or something. Adam: Yes. Yeah, it's a bit of a balance and sometimes a bit of a fight when we're working with our clients and they want skill sets that are so specific and experience that is very specific to what they're doing currently. Where it's like, "Hey, do you really need that or can this person learn that?" And then they start thinking about it and we come to a bit of a compromise there. Stephanie: Yep. Cool. So I'm sure with all the companies that come to you for hiring right now, you might be seeing a different trend. Whether maybe it's online grocery picking up and people asking you for help there. What industries do you see growing the fastest right now with everything going on? Adam: Yeah. You're totally right and online grocery is huge right now and these are industries that were just novel, they were new. Online alcohol delivery, very new and that has been accelerated during these current times. And you look at pet food, you look at children's toys, you look at home improvement, furniture. These are areas that are doing very well. Consumer health and beauty. We're working with clients that are in these spaces right now that they're e-commerce volume is where they wanted it to be a year from now, but they haven't hired accordingly because who knew? And they're scrambling and that's very common right now. But they know that things are going to continue to spike even after everything's back to normal and digital transformation is going to be accelerated more so than ever before. Adam: There's going to be increasingly heavy investments in e-commerce and omni-channel. So we're still in a really good spot. Everything is still really new. E-commerce as a whole is surprisingly a very small percentage of overall revenue for a lot of retailers and every point that jumps up is a lot for these companies and we're going to continue to see that. So think about online furniture where consumer behavior has just completely changed where in the past people wouldn't do it. They wanted to go to a store and sit on a couch or try out a bed and now you don't need to do that. People are way more comfortable shopping online for these types of products without ever seeing it, without ever feeling it in person. And we're going to see that across many industries at this point. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. Do you think things will stay the same post pandemic because some things I'm thinking like furniture anyways, I would still want to try out and sit, whereas beds, I'm pretty used to buying a mattress and being able to send it back. But furniture, a lot of companies, anyways, you can't just send it. Are there certain industries that you think will kind of go through a dip period again after everything calms down and then maybe ramp back up or you just think everything's going to stay elevated at where it's at now? Adam: Well, some of the elevation right now is severely elevated just because of everything that's going on so we'll see a dip for sure. But overall across the board I do think e-commerce activity is going to remain... the volume is just going to be extremely high. And to your point with wanting to shop for a couch but still sit on it, yes. But companies are getting way better at returns, making that an easy process and deliveries. Consumers are demanding faster and faster and they're expecting faster and faster deliveries and companies are really working on that. And there are a lot of vendors out there that are 3PLs and similar to that are supporting them in getting those items up to these customers as fast as possible. And you're going to see an increase in online volume just due to the fact that it's becoming much easier. The barriers are breaking down. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. I just wanted to order something off Amazon, and I saw now that you don't have to bring a box back, you just bring it back to the UPS store and will ship it out with no box. And I'm like, "Oh, this is awesome." Because that is actually what has held me up from returning things is not being able to find a box and being lazy. But I can definitely see a lot of industry's changing and making that return process a lot more seamless. So then I will feel comfortable buying furniture or other things like that. Adam: That's right. Stephanie: Yeah. Very cool. So do you see any technological patterns or trends coming down the pipe that you're excited about because of this? Because I'm sure the underlying tech will have to change for a lot of these companies who, like you said, they weren't expecting this this year. They're maybe expecting a year, even five years down the line. Adam: Yeah, I'm a bit of a technology nerd, especially consumer technology, just personally. And what had really excited me prior to the pandemic was everything that was going on in regard to augmented reality and virtual reality and e-commerce. That was another field that was kind of teetering. We didn't know if it was going to be successful. We didn't know if that was going to be adopted. But now with people not going into stores as much, it makes a lot of sense. If you want to see what your beauty product looks like on you without even going into a store and you are able to do that just by holding your phone up. That is amazing. You can see your different hair colors, you can, going back to furniture, you can place that furniture in your room using your phone without even going into a store to see it. So there's a lot of really neat things that they can do on that AR, VR side that can make customers a lot more comfortable shopping online than ever before. Stephanie: Yeah, no, no. That's a really exciting space right now. Have you seen companies embracing that now? Companies who were not embracing it before actually starting to think about embracing it now? Because it still feels like a field that feels a little bit hard to break into right now, because it's like, "What tech do I need? How do I get started?" Adam: It is very, very new. And I think that most companies that are thinking about it are mostly in just the very early development stage where they're talking about it. They're putting in into some strategic plans, but still need to work out the kinks. There are very few companies that do it right, right now, but I it's I think an interesting field to watch. Stephanie: I'm still trying to think about too how the difference between how a company can use AR versus VR. Because VR feels easier to me because you're in that world and things don't have to be perfect. AR still has to be perfect. So I'm trying to think about, at least when we were trying to get things to work on Google maps in an AR version and it was really hard. I mean, it was snowing in Zurich and then the whole time the app would go down and some will change a piece of a building and put a sign on it and then the localization would be wrong and then it'd go down again. So I'm trying to think about which one would come first or maybe at the same time. Adam: So it's certainly not perfect and the technology is getting better every year. VR is very expensive. You need to have a complete headset and there are not a lot of freestanding headsets either. So it needs to be connected to a computer as far as I'm aware. AR is a lot easier. You can utilize your smartphone and the technology is a little bit more limiting, but it does allow you to do a lot more with it. So I think companies are probably better off investing in augmented reality to start seeing how that grows because consumer adoption of virtual reality headsets, it's just not there yet. But everybody has a smartphone. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. And I think I just saw maybe Magic Leap, I mean, other than having to lay off a bunch of people, they're shifting to enterprises now and they're not focusing on consumers. They're also wondering if there's going to be a hiccup there with the companies who were producing the big headsets that were more expensive if they're going to be there after all of this. Adam: Yeah. For consumers, I'm not really sure. But other industries, for the medical field, I can imagine Magic Leap being huge, right? So there's a lot of potential there and we'll see how it grows on the consumer side. Stephanie: Got it. Are there any industries in e-commerce that you're most excited about right now other than the ones that are popping up now. But before all this started, are there industries that you were focused in on? Adam: So it's interesting. When we first started, our business was very much comprised of fashion apparel companies, consumer electronics companies. It wasn't until the past two, three years that CPG companies started investing very heavily in e-commerce. They were a little bit late to the game and they realized it. They started figuring out e-commerce and we're talking food and beverage companies, we're talking consumer health companies. And it's very exciting times for them where they're figuring out direct to consumer, they're figuring out marketplace, they're figuring out retailer.com and did they have very large complex businesses. Adam: A lot of these are very omni-channel too where they have stores and they're incorporating their mobile application into their omni-channel strategy. So we're working with a ton of these and I think that the opportunity there is really interesting as they really focus more on the customer journey as well. That they can the customer... if you're going into a store, you don't really have the ability to customize an experience for that customer as they walk into a store and look at your product on the physical shelf but on a digital shelf you can do that. So there's a lot of opportunity there for emerging CPG companies to provide a really interesting customer journey to their experience that they otherwise couldn't. Adam: And that is beneficial if your product is a subscription based, right? How do you maintain loyalty in a subscription environment? How do you differentiate yourself from a lot of other CPG brands out there? Maybe even ones that compete on price. So these companies are really trying to figure it out and hiring very large e-commerce teams to do so. So for us it's been a lot of fun working with them and for candidates, it's if you want to work in a very entrepreneurial startup like environment, but still for a very large company that has a ton of resources to make it successful, CPG is the way to go. Stephanie: That's the most fun when you have resources to actually try something [inaudible 00:29:03]. Adam: Yeah, yeah. A little less risky, but still you get the benefits of that startup environment. Stephanie: Yeah, no, that's fine. Are there any companies that you either hear your clients looking to as leaders to watch or that you advise them like, Hey, you should check out maybe this company because they're a leader with this, this and this. Is there anyone that we should look to either mimic or follow? Adam: Everybody wants to be the next cool startup in e-commerce. And everyone's like, we want to be the next Casper. We want to be the next- Stephanie: Dollar Shave Club. Adam: Dollar Shave Club or Harry's or whatever it might be. But this is where you have to level set with early stage startups and entrepreneurs. They think many times that they're going to be able to acquire top talent just because their idea is so cool. And that's often not the case and they're oftentimes looking to pay them more heavy on the equity side than base compensation. And they think that because of their idea's so cool that people are going to see the potential on this and that's going to be okay for them. The truth is that's not the case. That if you're an early stage startup or an entrepreneur, you have to pay market rates. You just do. That's the only way to be competitive. If you want top talent in the marketplace, you're going to have to do that on top of providing equity. So we have to level set sometimes and make sure that they understand that and it's a challenge, but you're talking about their baby when you do that but that's just what we see in the marketplace. Stephanie: Yeah. Very cool. Have you seen salaries grow over the past 10 years when it comes to what people are willing to pay e-commerce talent? Adam: Yeah. Yeah. E-commerce it pays well, it does because this is a huge revenue area for companies. They have a lot at stake here and these are roles that are highly specialized and there's not a huge talent market out there. If you want to remain competitive, you have to pay highly competitive rates. So companies know this, they get it, they understand it. We work with companies that are based outside of major cities, but for their e-commerce talent, they really want to pay city rates, city market rates just to remain competitive and for not just acquisition but for retention too. They don't want them jumping to another company. And this is going to be a significant factor going forward too with all these companies investing heavily in e-commerce and e-commerce teams growing and every company looking to hire e-commerce talent, how do you remain competitive? Adam: And that is, first and foremost in my opinion, compensation. And then companies are going to have to start thinking about remote or flexible work arrangements because this is what everybody wants. People reach out to me daily asking me if we have remote opportunities. This was before everything happened. And now I think that this is going to be front and center in people's minds and on their wishlist going forward and companies are either going to need to adjust to this or be okay with losing out on top talent. Stephanie: Yeah. And I think this might've been a good forcing function to get those companies to a place where they feel more comfortable as long as they see good results. A lot of people have been working from home now, I could see some companies seeing bad results and some seeing good ones so it all depends. Adam: I'd hate for them just to base it on this time right now because it is such an unprecedented time that people are... their kids are home. It is very difficult to get things done and have to figure out how to work remotely maybe when they haven't in the past. And it's just a very unique environment right now. Test it when everyone's back at work and things are a bit back to normal. That I think would be the true test. Stephanie: Yeah. Have you seen any of your clients adapting quickly to try and create good work from home type opportunities where maybe they're like, "Okay, I'm going to shift that job req to be remote now instead?" Or are they a little bit slower with that? Adam: Yeah. So certainly a lot of our clients have said, "This is the final straw. These roles are going to be remote. Don't worry about having people work in house for this or onsite." But what's happening now is that everything is remote where candidates are being interviewed over the phone and over Zoom. They're being hired over Zoom. They are getting onboarded over Zoom. They're going through orientation over Zoom. So everything is virtual and it's a learning curve for everybody. It's a learning curve for these companies. It's a learning curve for candidates. I've had candidates that had to do presentations, interview presentations over Zoom, and that's very unique and different and- Stephanie: Awkward. Adam: Very awkward. There are a lot of new challenges there. Stephanie: It's like, "Are you laughing over there? Oh, it's just frozen. Okay. Oh, awkward." Adam: Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. So we're all figuring this out at the same time. And I think that in a more normal environment that companies will see that this is the future, you can't stop it. Stephanie: All right, so towards the end of the interview here we do this thing called a lightning round sponsored by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where you can quickly answer whatever comes to mind and you have one minute and you have about five questions here. Adam: Okay. Stephanie: Are you ready Adam? Adam: I am ready. Stephanie: Okay, I'll start with the easier ones first and then we'll have a harder one last. All right. Since we were talking with you and our producer Hillary, that it's lunchtime for you guys. What's up next for lunch? Adam: Oh. So I am a big granola fan and I will eat granola for every meal of the day. And that's what I will probably hit up for lunch. Stephanie: Yum. I haven't heard your stomach rumbling yet so amazing. What's up next on your Netflix or Hulu queue? Adam: Interesting. I have had Ozark on there the new season for a long time. I just have not had the opportunity to watch it. But that is a really interesting show and I've been looking forward to it. Stephanie: Awesome. I see our producer, Hillary is in my dock right now in all caps saying, "I love granola too." That's good. Adam: I'm glad. Stephanie: That is a fan favorite. What's up next in your travel destinations? When you are allowed to travel? Adam: Oh man. I can't wait to get out of the house, first and foremost. But assuming we can get out this summer, Maine has been our favorite destination for summer trips. We go to Portland, Maine. Love it there. The restaurants are fantastic. It's on the water, there tons of parks to go to. We bring our kids, our dogs and the whole family goes and just they have a great time. So I'm hoping to still get there at some point. Stephanie: Awesome. Yeah, it sounds really pretty. What's up next on your reading list or podcast list other than this podcast or [inaudible 00:37:46]? Adam: So my favorite podcast probably have to be How I built This with Guy Raz. So I listened to that pretty religiously and I love hearing the stories of these entrepreneurs and how they get started and what they did to scale and the challenges that they did face. And one of my favorite questions that Guy likes to ask is how much of your success can be attributed to luck? And surprisingly, almost everybody says a lot. And I find that just a really interesting. And, again, we talked about being in the right place at the right time and I think that's really interesting. Of course, you make your own luck by getting yourself out there and working hard but the luck is certainly is a big factor. Stephanie: Oh yeah, completely agree. A lot of the reason we're here is because of luck for sure. And timing and being like, "Oh, glad that happened when it did, because if not, we might not be at this company right now." Adam: That's right, that's right. Stephanie: So completely agree. All right. The harder question. In your opinion, what's up next for e-commerce pros? Adam: For individuals in e-commerce? Stephanie: Yeah. Adam: What's up next? I think that we're going to be seeing a lot of activity, a lot of companies doubling down on e-commerce like I mentioned. And what they're going to be looking for are people that can understand the entire e-commerce ecosystem and that may be everything from retail, brick and mortar to omni-channel to direct e-commerce. Companies are going to look for people that can integrate their strategies and everything is becoming more integrated. There may not be different channels anymore. They're all blending together. So for people that understand the business, that is going to be critical for these companies, and that's where you should be really focusing on your skillset. If you're a specialist right now, start learning outside of your box and start thinking about the business and how it operates and how everything ties together, because that's what's going to be most important. Stephanie: Love it. Great answer. All right. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Adam. This is fun. Adam: Is great. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.

RDSP (H1) Rob: We're talking about RDSPs today, Registered Disability Savings Plan. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com. Head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisor Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Today we're here with Adam Buss, Wealth and Estate Planning Specialist here at Canaccord Genuity, to talk about the RDSP. The RDSP, so where do we begin? Adam: Well, it is specifically designed for those who qualify for the DTC, the disability tax credit. We do have another video on the disability tax credit, so please click and enjoy that one as well. But the RDSP is a savings plan to basically save for the financial future. For somebody who has a qualified disability,  it's a plan the government throws a pile of free money towards. So comparable to the RRSP and the RESP, because we love acronyms, we're going to throw all those out. But  basically, the contributions that you make towards this plan are not tax deductible. For example, you put $1,000 in, you don't get a tax receipt, unlike the RRSP's case. It's a bit like the RESP in that way. The government does throw in some matching grants on that, which can be quite favorable depending on your income level. Rob: Let's talk about those grants. Could I open an RDSP in theory, for a beneficiary, I would imagine? Adam: Yeah, maybe a parent opening one for a child who's a beneficiary, or an individual who has a qualified disability opening one for themselves. Rob: Okay, and then there's grants for the first $3,500, there are matching grants. So basically 300% for the first 500 dollars. Adam: You bet. 300% return on your first $500 of contribution. Rob: That means you're getting $1,500 not bad, 200% on the next thousand, that's another $2000. And then 100% for the last thousand. That is a lot of grants. There is a lot of grant money coming out and there's some family income rules with respect to that. You must be making less than $93,000 per year.  Adam: That's to qualify for those grants. Anything above that income level I'm pretty sure it's 100% matching only, which dollar for dollar on the first thousand dollars is still a pretty good deal. Rob: It's a pretty good return. That's not bad. Most portfolio managers would be thrilled with that return. Let's talk about the bonds themselves. I understand there could be even more money thrown at you if you make less than another threshold. Adam: Yeah. If a family has a lower income level, you can get additional bonds that are thrown into the account even without you having to put a dollar in. I think it's $1,000 per year up to a maximum of $20,000. Rob: Wow, that's very, very good. Okay, now we open this account. Maybe I had the DTC now for five years. Can I go back?  Adam: You can. Absolutely. Let's say for a couple of years, maybe you're in low income, you can't afford to put a lot of money into there. And you come into some money or you get a gift at some point and you can put a large amount in and make up for some of those unused years of room. You can get a big pile of grant money in one lump sum and carry forward up to 10 years. Rob: Okay. Now the DAP, the disability assistant payment, that's for age 60 and beyond. And then would that be taxable on the way out? Adam: Any money that you put into the plan you can take out tax free. It's your money. Any money that the government put in, or growth on the account, is all taxable when the money comes out essentially. It does provide you with an income for your retirement time. Rob: That's very similar to the RESP. Very similar in that regard for the grant and the growth are taxable in the individual who pulls it out in their name. Now, I guess the idea here for planning wise is that one, you're getting a ton of money upfront from the government. Two, It's growing tax free inside the account. That's a big part, right? You're not paying tax on the income that's being generated inside the RDSP. And I guess finally in theory, as you're withdrawing this money, you could potentially be in a lower tax bracket at that age, you've had all those years of deferred growth. Adam: Yeah, generally, maybe some individuals with a qualified disability don't have the same potential of earnings throughout their lifetime, but their family wants to make sure that they have the money come retirement to look after themselves. This is a great way to try to protect their benefits that they're receiving from the government on a regular basis, which is why all that income is sheltered within the plan. Rob: If you get started early here, I could just see these accounts could get fairly large. I would imagine. Adam: Which is probably why the government did put a cap on the contribution limit of, I think it's $200,000 for a lifetime contribution and up to $70,000 of grant money. Rob: Right. And the contributions, you can make them up until you're 59 and no more grants after you're 49. Adam: Yeah, you don't have to weigh the pros and cons. Does it make sense to put money in past the age of 49 or not, as you aren't getting any free government money? There are situations where it does make sense. Rob: Yeah, you're putting $2,500 and you're getting $3,500 in matching. That's pretty neat. Now do they count, do they affect any future government sponsored benefits? Adam: Typically not. I mean, every province does set their own rules as to what qualifies and what doesn't qualify as income for reducing the government benefits. But the idea behind it is hopefully that it doesn't affect your government benefits. Always recommend checking with your provincial governing body. Rob: Now they talk about bonds. Does that mean that in the investment account you have to have bonds or could you put whatever you want in that investment account? Adam: Now you have a few more investment options. It's not an actual bond. It's basically just a gift of money that the government's giving, but you do have a lot of investment options at your disposal. Rob: You open an RDSP, you can put effectively stocks, bonds, debentures, preferred shares, alternatives, equities, ETFs, mutual funds. You could put whatever you want in that portfolio. Adam: There's a certain limitation. There's a few providers out there that don't provide services for RDSPs. But the best place to get the answers is to come to Rob Tétrault and figure out what is the investment options that are available for your RDSP account. Rob: And to do that, you'd go to www.speaktorob.com, to book a no obligation free consultation. Adam, it's been a pleasure, a real pleasure chatting with you today about the registered disability savings plan.

How does a Harvard-trained digital marketer use statistical analysis to improve the results he's getting from pay-per-click advertising? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Nerds Do It Better (how great is that company name?!) founder Adam Lundquist pulls back the curtain on the process he uses to build, execute and test high-performing PPC campaigns. Adam started his career as a shock jock and when he saw the business of radio giving way to digital, he embarked on a new career path that had him attending Harvard to study digital media and teaching himself how to do everything from social media to digital advertising. In this episode, Adam shares the exact process he uses to create high performing ads. He covers everything from his tech stack to the frequency with which he reviews and adjust ad performance. It's a replicable process that any business can copy, so check out the full episode or the transcript below for details. Highlights from my conversation with Adam include: Adam says that the key to success with digital marketing is to understand statistics and human psychology. The work he does is inspired by the story behind the movie Moneyball and he believes that most marketers don't use data correctly so those who are able to do it right have a competitive advantage. Marketers need to understand the difference between digital marketing-based goals and profit-based business goals. Marketing goals are leading indicators - things like the number of clicks or the conversion rate, whereas profit-based goals have to do with sales and revenue. Adam focuses on profit-based goals. When developing an ad strategy, Adam suggest starting by going to the Google Ads search query report to look at what you're actually showing for. If there are search queries there that are not relevant, add them to your negative keyword list. When you have your list of desired search terms, put them each in their own ad group. Adam uses a combination of Zapier and Unbounce to do attribution reporting on his ads, but says you can use other tools like Click Funnels as well. Because he sets his ad campaigns up as single keyword ad groups in Google Ads, Adam is able to pull the keyword that drove a visit or conversion into Unbounce using a hidden form field. He then uses Google sheets to track and report on ad performance, and automatically pulls data in to Google sheets in real time using Supermetrics. This system allows Adam to track the return on ad spend (ROAS) of individual keywords. When he finds a keyword that is yield a 3x or 4x ROAS, he puts that keyword into its own campaign and sets the budget to unlimited (because he knows, with confidence, he'll see a positive return on that investment). Adam uses Unbounce's dynamic keyword insertion functionality to create multiple, customized landing pages from a single template. Adam reviews and adjusts the performance of his ads on a weekly basis. He recommends starting your ads with a top of funnel offer such as an ebook that people will be more likely to convert on. This leverages the principles of compliance psychology which dictate that once someone says a small "yes," they are more likely to say a bigger "yes" after that. All of Adam's ad groups are single keyword and set to exact match. Resources from this episode: Visit the Nerds Do It Better website Follow Adam on Twitter Read Adam's article in Search Engine Journal Listen to the podcast to learn how to create high performing Google Ads. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth and my guest today is Adam Lundquist who is the founder of, and I love this agency name, Nerds Do It Better. I just have to take a moment and tip my hat to you Adam for the best company name I've had on this podcast to date. It's awesome. Adam Lundquist (Guest): I mean, we do. You know, you got to be a nerd to be in this business. Adam and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: I love it so much. So much. I kind of wish I had thought of it myself. But you're interesting to me and I'm excited to chat with you about some of the things that you guys are working on, specifically with pay-per-click advertising and leveraging, like, statistical analysis and, you know, all that nerdy stuff because nerds do it better. About Adam and Nerds Do It Better Kathleen: But before we get into that, can you do me a favor and just tell my audience a little bit about yourself and who you are and how you wound up where you are and what exactly Nerds Do It Better does? Adam: Sure. So, hi, my name is Adam. I recently moved to London, England but I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts. Pretty average childhood, but in Boston, it's a little bit of a different area. Have you ever been to Boston? Kathleen: I have, I grew up in southern New Hampshire, so. Adam: Okay, so you know. Oh, by Salem? That's where I got my first car, I don't know if you knew that. Beautiful, tax-free Salem. But so it's not like in California where I ended up moving to, and Boston, really, the two big things were sports and radio. Like, when I was growing up either you wanted to be on the Patriots or the Bruins, which definitely was not going to happen for me. Or you could be on radio, were like kind of the two big dreams. So, I wanted to be on radio. I kind of wanted to be the next Howard Stern, was a person that I really idolized growing up. And kind of I was going to school in the mountains of Massachusetts in a place called North Adams and I just basically got tired of the cold and I moved to Santa Barbara and I kind of applied six or seven times to be an intern at the local rock station. Got the internship, worked my way up there and eventually got my own radio show. My morning show, just like I thought, would be awesome, and it was awesome. We became number one rated and things were going really well, but around 2006 or 7ish I started to see that our advertising revenue was going down despite the fact that we were the number one rated show. So, I kind of knew that there was a death knell of radio because radio was supported by ads. Public radio, terrestrial radio, whatever, it's all ad supported. I started to see that the ads were actually going towards more of the internet and this was still very early on. I think YouTube came out like 2006. So, I thought well, I better get involved in this internet thing and I wanted to have a viral video. I thought that would be a cool thing to do and I thought it would be easy and it was not easy at all. So, I tried my hand in it. I had an interview with this guy called Sam Cassell on the Clippers and like, just to let you know where I was at, like, I know eventually I learned all this stuff, but at the time, like, I knew nothing about the internet or really marketing. I had no money at all because the pay was terrible. I couldn't pay to promote it. And I was in like pretty much the most expensive place I've ever lived and keep in mind, I'm living in London, but Santa Barbara is incredibly expensive. I mean, I did have my successful radio show but, so I did this interview, I put it on YouTube and nothing happened. Literally, two, three views maybe. So, I started to learn how to work the internet basically. I learned about email marketing, finding the right blogs, getting in front of the right audience, compliance psychology. So, at first I was saying, "Hey, would you put this video on your website?" Which was way too big an ask. I had to kind of go down and use an easier thing saying, "Hey, would you watch this video?" And when people start watching it, they would then post it on their site. Eventually, the video got picked up. Its number seven on Sports Illustrated's Viral Videos of All Time. It's on VH1s Best Week Ever. It really blew up, which was great. I needed to use the internet. I then got picked up to run six radio stations on the Central Coast internet presence. Wasn't even on the air for much, just running their internet presence. And I just basically got tired of radio. They were asking for stuff that could definitely happen in the 70s but could not happen in the 00s/10s, like a country station asked me to get them a team of horses which is just not going to happen in this day and age. So, I went back to school. I got accepted into Harvard. I got a master's degree from it and then went to a start up and from there, it was a very small start up. I was maybe the fourth employee or fifth. We became the second fastest growing start up in San Diego. Our biggest client was a water proof cell phone case company. We took them from about 20,000 in monthly revenue to over a million. But at some point I realized I needed to start my own company because basically I'm just a control freak and I kind of have an independent streak. But my company has grown quite a bit. You'll see us run at PPC Hero, Search Engine Journal. I spoke at Philly Tech Week maybe a year or two ago and Hero Conf, whatever. And you know, things are pretty good. I mean, I live in South Kensington, England. Kind of travel wherever I want. My wife and I were just in Bali and it's just a very comfortable way to live. As long as you can understand statistics and human psychology, you can pretty much run your part of the internet. Kathleen: Yeah. Your story is so interesting to me for a number of reasons. I mean, when I read your bio and it talked about you being a shock jock, I was like, "Oh I want to talk to him so much about that." But I feel like we won't have time. That's like a whole other podcast. But now I'm curious because I have a theory and I want to see if it turns out to be true. What did you major in at Harvard? Adam: What was it? Digital Media Arts and Instructional Design. I thought that I was going to be part of those massive online open courses. And I actually did, one of my teaching fellows pulled me aside and wanted to do something with it, but the pay for those is pretty bad. You'd be surprised. So, they're prestigious like it's definitely prestigious, but it was not the pay that I was looking for. Kathleen: Yeah. No, I've had this theory that many of the best marketers are not actually trained marketers. You know what I mean? I have a graduate degree in marketing so maybe I'm taking myself out of the running for this, being one of the best marketers, but a lot of the greatest marketers I've talked to, they didn't study marketing. They came from other backgrounds but they are super driven learners. Like, they have this sensational curiosity and so they wind up in marketing because there's a challenge they're trying to figure out like you with your viral videos. And they kind of like sink their teeth into that challenge, they figure it out and then they kind of like follow the thread and that takes them into marketing. And it sort of sounds like that's what happened to you with like trying to figure out the video, leveraging the statistical analysis, trying to figure out pay-per-click and solve for this changing landscape of radio and such and such. It's just interesting to me that that's what your background is. And just how you kind of rolled your sleeves up and figured it out. I love that. Adam: Yeah, I mean, I kind of had to. I saw the writing on the wall. So, at the point I was doing radio, I was teaching a course at a city college and working the newspaper like, might as well have been working the silent film era. Like, I was like, "I am in some really bad industries. I need to get in some really good industries real quickly." You know, a lot of my radio friends have wanted to transition into this, but at this point it's a little bit late and they don't really, the background doesn't move as much as it used to, right? So, if someone comes to you and they say, "Hey, I'm in the radio. I can make you have a great internet presence," you know, maybe they can do good on the radio. They're probably good at podcasting but yeah, for me it was the challenge and then seeing how it could scale. Like, just taking that first company from like 20,000 to over a million and it probably took me two months. Like, I could not even believe how this stuff scales. It's worldwide, it's incredible. Kathleen: Yeah. Now, shifting gears for a minute. You're doing some interesting work at Nerds Do It Better with pay-per-click and again, when I read your bio, it talked about leveraging statistical techniques developed at Harvard to get better results with pay-per-click marketing. Can you just start by kind of giving an overview of that and then maybe we can dig a little deeper into exactly what you're doing? Using statistical analysis to get better marketing results Adam: Sure. So, a little bit of this comes from that movie and book, did you ever see Moneyball by Michael Lewis? Kathleen: Oh yeah. Yeah. Adam: One of my favorite authors, but also a really good book. So, the book was about how the Oakland A's -- they're like a major league baseball team -- how their front office hired this big nerd status statistician who kind of noticed market inefficiencies and how players were value based. I mean I won't get too, too into it but it was basically like batting average versus on base percentage. What you do need to know is that they took people who are undervalued and using that, were able to make the, I think it was like the ALCS, and they were able to basically, like, win way more games than the Yankees. That's the basic premise of it. Kathleen: And now all of baseball uses those same techniques, is my understanding. Like, that's not only baseball, but like, many sports have essentially adopted that approach of like, looking at the data and using more data-driven decision making because of that situation, that case. And it was so successful. Adam: Yeah. That's exactly right. They ended up hiring the guy for the Red Sox and he won the 2004 World Series. Football does it. I mean, Amazon does it. A lot of my friends who are stock brokers or financial people do it. Like, data is kind of like the new oil. Like, if you can really look at it and look at it correctly, which is what I want to talk a bit about, you can do amazing things because so many people are looking at it incorrectly. So, I kind of want to talk about the difference between a digital marketing-based goal and a profit-based business goal. So, a lot of times I'll have a sales call and people will be like, "Well, how many clicks can you get me?" Like, you really can't pay your workers in clicks or Facebook likes. So, what I try to look at and optimize towards is towards profit-based business goals rather than digital and marketing-based conversion goals. So, what I mean by that is a couple of things. So, a lot of what I do is lead generation for lawyers, hormonal therapy doctors, just a lot of lead generation. But every lead isn't created equal, right? So, I might have say a search query in Google which gets me 10 leads at a cost per acquisition of say 10 bucks a lead versus another one that will get me a CPA of 30 buck a lead, however if we're optimizing towards profit-based business goals, which is really what we want to be optimizing towards, you can handle the higher cost per acquisition because you're actually optimizing towards your return on ads then return on investment, whatever you want to call it. So, I really try to look at the gap between digital and the real world because well, for one, my clients wouldn't be around all that long if I wasn't actually tying it to real world profit. But also, people need to realize that the internet is amazing but it's not magic. Like, you still have to have good solid business principals and look at the statistics that way. Does that make sense? Kathleen: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and I love when you talk about shifting your focus with pay-per-click to having that more profit-driven approach because one of the questions I get all the time, all the time, and I come from many years in the agency world. I owned an agency for 11 years, I then worked in another one for two. And I can't tell you how many times people have said, "What should my budget be for pay-per-click?" And they think that there's some magic like aggregate number like oh, you should spend $3,000 a month, right? And you're right, it's exactly the opposite approach that you should be taking. It should really be how much are you willing to spend to get a new customer, and if it's working, and you're getting new customers, then your budget should really be limitless because there's that return baked in. So, I don't know, I've always thought that was really interesting that people think in terms of budgets instead of cost per acquisition and return on ad spend. Adam: Yeah. I do, too. And with some of the bigger companies I work for, like, it has to be because people have to sign off on it. But I did want to say, because I promised you when I came on I'd tell you how to make this actionable, so, let's talk about this in AdWords because there's a whole, obviously, variety of networks, Facebook, AdWords. But I want to at least give people something to walk away with. Getting better results from Google ads Adam: So, in AdWords, your keywords aren't actually like what you think they are. So, your keyword that you tell Google that you want to search for might be "DUI lawyer." That's an example, I have a lot of lawyers. But if you don't have the match type, that could match for things like "cool movies about DUI lawyers." So, the first thing you want to do is in AdWords, go to the search query report to look at what you're actually showing for. So, that's the first step and if you do that alone, you're probably going to save yourself a lot of money. Now, what you want to do is you want to take the search queries, which again are not keywords, and if they're bad, make them what's called a negative so they don't show. So, say you're a DUI lawyer and your keyword is matching for "cool shows about DUI lawyers." That is not going to be a profitable keyword ever. That's just not going to work. So, you want to negative out shows, you might want to keep cool, like, that's fine. Usually for my lawyers they want "cheap" removed or "free" removed. And then you want to put it in its own ad group. So, if it's a good one, say "best DUI lawyer," now you can show up for that. Of course you can't put that in your ads. Anyone who is a lawyer knows that any claim has to be verifiable. That's a tip for you. Don't put "best" in there. Kathleen: Don't lie. Adam: Don't get disbarred. Yeah. I mean you can say "best plumber" but you can't say that for a lawyer because lawyers will get disbarred. Kathleen: Right. Adam: Okay but so then you do that and what you can actually do, which is really cool, and a bit more advanced, but I know you have more of an advanced audience, is if you use something called Zapier, and I use Unbounce but I believe you can just use Click Funnels as well. You can pull the actual name with the actual search query and then follow it through. Now this works really well for, one, seeing the quality of the leads. But if you have a client who you can track to the end, which you can't do with the DUI lawyer or really any of my lawyers, but you can do that with other types of clients. you can see the return on ad spend on an individual word. So, what I do then, is what's called alphabeta. If you have a keyword that's, say, delivering you like a three or four times return on ad spend, I make its own campaign, which is where you allocate budget and basically set it on unlimited. You know, you obviously want to talk to your clients about it, but if it's coming in at four times, and you have the individual search query and you know that that's the case, I say that's a great series of steps to do to look at statistical analysis to then increase your actual real world profit. How to track attribution for your PPC campaigns Kathleen: So, I want to back up for a second. You talked about using Zapier and following the keyword all the way through to profit. Can you just get, like dig a little bit deeper in there and explain exactly how you do that? Adam: Sure. So, Zapier is a way to connect different apps. And anything I recommend on this program, I don't get a cut of any of it because- Kathleen: And Zapier is great by the way. I will second that. I've used it a lot. Adam: Yeah. I want people to know that if I recommend something, I don't think I get a cut of any of these. It'd be cool if I did. I once got a free Unbounce t-shirt. Zapier connects different apps. So, the way that I do it is I use Unbounce, which you can pull in the keyword from a hidden form field. And, if you have your single keyword ad groups, which is what I recommended from the search query report when it's good versus bad, it'll pull it into a hidden form field in Unbounce. Now, I do all my reporting in Google Sheets. I love Google Sheets. Again, don't get a cut of it but I just think it's the most amazing program. I use a program called Supermetrics to pull in data in real time. Clients love that. I guess not exactly real time, it pulls it hourly because that's the max Google's API will let you and Facebook. But that way you're not filling out things all the time. Now, Supermetrics or Zapier can pull in the keyword, the name which will typically be an email, which you want to use as the unique identifier into Google Sheets. Now, what I- Kathleen: And this is assuming so they've converted on the form. So, you said you have a hidden form field which, I've done that before with some things but I want to make sure I'm understanding directly and that listeners are understanding correctly. So, you have an ad that's associated with a single keyword. Adam: Right. Kathleen: Are you directing them back from that ad to a landing page that has a form and that form is specific to that keyword and that's why you're able to have that hidden form field that says, "this is the keyword"? Or is it somehow using the referral URL to populate that? Adam: Yeah. So, in AdWords when you have, well, really any ads, and they're auto-tagged, which it's set to by default, it has something called a GC, I think it's LID. Or GCID, I can't remember off the top of my head. But that pulls in the keyword. It's actually how Google does it with analytics. You might wonder how where do they get these keywords from. That's how. And then in Unbouce, I have that just pull in. Now, one of the cool things in Unbounce you can do is called dynamic keyword insertion. So, if I don't know, like, I have a long distance medical transportation company as an example, as a client. If someone types in "Alzheimer long distance medical transportation", that will show up in the headline just because it pulls in from the keyword which is a really cool trick to do. That way you don't have to make a million different landing pages. Also makes it easier to split test. But the keyword itself, you can pull in variables from the URL into your form field. SO, I mean, if you've ever filled out a form like on the, say, the first page like, "Hey what's your name?" And I put Adam. The next page is like, "Hey Adam. We'd like to know whatever, x, y, z." That's how it does that. Kathleen: Cool. So, they convert on the form, there's a hidden field that's the keyword that associates their conversion with the keyword that first brought them in. So, sort of that first touch attribution modeling. And you're then dumping that data into Google Sheets, from there you're automatically pulling it into Supermetrics which by the way, if you're listening and you want to learn more about it, I did just interview Anna Shutko from Supermetrics. I think that's my last episode actually. So, check that out if you want to learn more about Supermetrics. We're bringing it all full circle. So, you pull it into Supermetrics and then where does it go from there? What happens next? Adam: Well, actually, so Supermetrics pulls into Google Sheets. Kind of think of it like a database. So, everything I do is a hub-and-spoke model which, I don't know how much you want to get into that but that's a business model where these hubs and then little spokes that come out of it for a reporting basically. So, as far as Supermetrics, that's just really going to tell you your ad spend. It can also tell you how much that actual cost per click is if that's something you're needing to know. With lawyers it is, you know it can be 40, 60 buck a click. So, you would see, all right, so this single keyword ad group which is what we started with, let say it spends, I don't know, you want to look at things in a two week period generally, $40 just as an example and you see you got three leads and two of them signed up or a $3,000 product. Probably a pretty good keyword. And you're probably not going to be blasting through Google's entire search inventory with whatever it was, 10 clicks, whatever the example was. So, what you would do then is looking at that, and what you again want to do is use the email as the unique identifier because people use different first names, you know, Mike, Michael, whatever. If it's the kind of, say, software as a service, you can track lifetime value of that. So, if someone is on for a long period of time, you can track lifetime value to a keyword. And you really just want to stay on top of the value versus just the digital part. And the digital part matters, right? Like it's not coming into your funnel otherwise. But you just, from the point where it's in a Google Sheet, you just look at the data. It's simple but hard to do if that makes sense. Like, kind of like doing a bunch of pushups. Like, you know you could do this but you have to stay on top of it. How often should you adjust your ad strategy? Kathleen: So, what does that look like? When you say "stay on top of it," is there a certain cadence that you maintain as far as, like, how frequently you're watching the data? How long do you let an ad run before you make a decision to, like, keep or cut? And based on whether it's working or not and how often are you making changes? Adam: We usually make changes weekly. Depends a little bit on the size of the account and the size of the keyword. So, what I try to do is have multi ad group testing so that there'll be two ads but they'll be variations. So it will be just two variations but the headline will be dynamic based on the keyword. And generally two landing pages as well. Now one thing to think about is a local maximum verses a, I forget what the other one is called. But local maximum is like, I could change the font, I could change the color, whatever, I can do these little minor changes. The other one is I can change the actual offer. Now, where you're going to see the biggest change is when you change the offer. So, if you're looking at someone coming in through the display network versus the search network, you're going to want a very different offer, right? So, the search network you can go right for a consultation, it's not problem at all. For the display network, I typically recommend you start off at least your funnel with an e-book or something directly of value that's a low threat. Because while you think, and I like to think as well that my sales calls are full of value, and they kind of are, realistically the person seeing is like, "Oh, I don't want to like stop what I'm doing to get on a stupid sales call." But they may want to do it for an e-book and again, this is a bit of compliance psychology. I don't know if you have show notes but I wrote an article in Search Engine Journal for this a couple of weeks ago. Click here to read Adam's article in Search Engine Journal   Kathleen: Yeah, I do, so I'll put the link in for sure. Adam: Perfect. And that article did really well because it makes a lot of sense. So, again we're talking about compliance psychology. So, if someone takes a small step, they're much more likely to take a bigger step. It's like, BJ Fogg out of Stanford is doing this really interesting study on tiny habits. If you floss one tooth, you're much more likely to floss all your teeth. Intuitively that makes sense. I don't know if, intuitively, it makes sense to have someone downloads an e-book they're much more likely to sign up for a consultation, but they are. So, I mean I don't know how else to say it. Like, that's the basic gist of what I do. So, I would look at if I was going to be changing, which I do change. I tend to change the offer much more readily than I would change say something small like the copy of an ad. Kathleen: It makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. There's a great book called Influence and if people are listening and they want to learn more about compliance psychology, like that book is fascinating. It's not really about marketing, it's about how to get people to do the things you want them to do and all the different ways you can approach it. And they talk about that kind of like the little yes before the big yes. They also talk about the principal of reciprocity. It's a fascinating story in there about the Hare Krishnas and how they were struggling to get donations and when they started giving out, I think it was flowers, all of a sudden their donations sky rocketed because people felt obligated. They got a flower they felt then obligated to donate. Even if they then threw the flower in the trash right after getting it, they would still donate. So, you're absolutely right. There's concrete scientific evidence that these strategies work. We just don't always apply them in marketing. Adam: They're like timeless strategies. So, that's what certain people ask me. They're like, "What network should I use?" They can all work if you look at the strategies. I actually noticed this, so I was in Santa Barbara for my wife's 40th and there are people on the streets with clipboards, you know? And they say, "Hey, do you have a second just to sign something that says you care about the environment?" And I watched this and people would sign it and then once they signed it, which is the small commitment step, the next step is well, will you donate money? So, at that point they can't say no they don't care about the environment because they've already signed it and taken the small steps. If you start to learn this stuff, you start to see it all around you. And it's like seeing the matrix, it's really cool. And you're right, that book is like when I'm not doing good in marketing and I need to really think things through, I almost always come back to that book and I say all right. He had like six principals. I'm like what is it? Is there not enough authority? Is there not enough reciprocity? And that's usually what the issue is, or it's too big a step which is an internet thing. But is it too big a step is usually the other problem. But I mean those are the ones I look out for. Adam's results Kathleen: Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah, I could talk for hours about that book and just, you hope people are using it for good, right? And not evil because it is so persuasive, some of those tactics. So, let's talk a little bit about this in practice. You've discussed, kind of, how you do this and how often you watch it and make changes. Can you give me some examples of how you've used this strategy with pay-per-click to improve results and how quickly those results maybe happen? Adam: Yeah. So I'll give you actually an example with that last client I was talking about. So, they do long distance medical transportation. So there's a lot of ways to phrase that. So, the first thing I did is I asked, "What is your definition of long distance?" Right? Because for me it might belike whatever, Massachusetts to New Hampshire or even within Massachusetts because I don't like driving all that much. But for them it was 300 miles, right? So, that's the first thing we did is define. And then we started looking at the keywords. So, for them, there's two different options for a lead because we're only running the AdWords search network. So again, Google has a whole bunch of networks, but this is the one that you type in and it will say, you know, your ad will show up based on what you type in. So, they can either have a phone call which they would prefer because we're talking about business metrics again. And phone calls are statistically much more valuable. That's because someone's right there ready to answer, right? So, sometimes if you write back to someone they'll be like, "I don't even remember filling this out." And I don't know what to tell you. Tough luck, that happens. So, try to get back to people as quick as you can. Or you can also do chat. But in their case, it is not a chat thing. It is either a form fill or a call. So, what we did is we ran this for about two months as it was. I cleaned up their pages and we looked at it coming in. So, because it's in Google Sheets, and essentially everyone knows Google Sheets, right? So, this isn't like when it comes into Salesforce and you have to show someone Salesforce which is such a pain. I just have them put was it a good lead, was it a bad lead and why? This is good for me for a couple reasons. One, it keeps them honest about their follow up. I say if you don't follow up with someone four times before they're a dead lead then we need to talk because leads aren't magic. But it also lets me know, right? So, if somebody types in say "long distance ambulance transportation," is it a better or worse lead? If someone types in "state to state medical transportation," is it a better or worse lead? So, we did that for about two months and then we took the search queries that were the most valuable and by that we decided which ones produce the most good leads. We took those, we added them as negatives to one campaign and we created a separate campaign called an alpha campaign and that alpha campaign essentially had an unlimited budget. And we had very specific single keyword ad groups in them that went to very specific landing pages and basically all of those leads are good leads. Now, we ran into search inventory issues because I believe the top one was in fact "long distance medical transportation" kind of like you'd expect. But that's fine. Like, if we cap out in Google, then there's really not too much we can do about that. We can move to Bing possible. But we're still getting them all sorts of really good leads with that. And then we just repeat the cycle. So, we continue looking and mining. Getting granular is really important with this. So, we wouldn't do a multi keyword ad group, it's all single keyword ad groups in what's called exact match. When it's an exact match it has to be that, it has to be in that order. The ads are very specific, they'll say in the headline, it'll say in the display link, the display URL which people don't always know is actually, I guess I would call like a vanity URL but you can put in "long distance medical transportation" actually send it somewhere else. And then for the actual landing page, that also says "long distance medical transportation" in the title tag as well as the headline. Kathleen: So, okay, so you did these ads, you looked to see what was working, you implemented, you refined the campaigns to really focus on the things that worked the best. What kind of results did they see from that? Adam: The return on ad spend has been very nice and I mean, I guess I don't really know off the top of my head. I mean, I could tell you- Kathleen: Like what would be a good return on ad spend? Benchmark that for me. Adam: That's tough to say. So, I guess like kind of anything else, it's tough to say. So, my job stops once they get a good lead, right? So, I do help people with sales training sometimes but if you can't close the leads that we both agreed are good qualified leads, then you need sales training or something along those lines. So, there have been cases, I think I have the quotes on my website where I've gotten people like six times the amount of leads within the first month, triple the amount of leads within the first month just by cleaning it up. But those ones who were definitely quotes up on my website were really good at closing. Like, they're lawyers who are just, they know how to do it. So, I guess my answer is, I would want to define that with a client. For me, anything over what your getting, like what you pay is a fine return on ad spend but you know, people do see two, three, four. In the case of contested divorce lawyers, it's much more than that because contested divorce, not that I am, but I know this from doing this for so much, is incredibly expensive. So, I try to find niches for me where the return is very good for the client because then they stick around for a while. Like, my first client sold cookies online. So, basically every click had to be sale and that was just, it was untenable. I couldn't do that. So, that's why I work with lawyers, long distance medical transportation, hormonal therapy doctors. The return for them can be very, very high, in the thousands. Kathleen: So, you're focused on how you can increase lead flow. Can you give me an idea of like how quickly lead flow increases and by what volume? Is it like 2x, 3x, 10x? Adam: Kind of depends on what I'm inheriting. So, typically I take over accounts. People come to me because their accounts aren't doing well. They either read something I wrote or of course I run my own ads, too. But typically they've already tried it. Like, it's very rare, when I started this people would be like, "I've never tried it before." But that's just not the case with most businesses now. So, it can be definitely two or three, sometimes even six or seven times if I can see immediately, look, your offer is just we use a letter F, and if we simply just change your offer, then you're going to do much better. Like, that's a slam dunk. If it's something more along the lines of like, "Hey, look, we need to dig in and we need to see is it the ads? What's going on here?" It can be a bit murkier because often times when people come to me they say, "Look, I feel like this isn't working." It's a red flag. It's probably not because they're not tracking it appropriately. I mean, and this stuff can be a pain to track, right? Tracking phone calls, how do you do that? Kathleen: Right. Adam: How do you track your leads? I mean, we're essentially doing the whole show on that. And it is, it's hard. It's really hard and I'm not taking anything away from anyone, like it is really hard to do. But it's really necessary to do. Kathleen: Yeah. It's so funny, listening to you talk about like how you deliver the leads and it's up to the client to close it. I have a funny kind of anecdote around that. As I said, I owned an agency for 11 years and I actually had a second start up for a little while that was an online sales training business. And I started it because it was all inspired by this one client who I worked with for six months and he was early stage. And in a very short amount of time were able to deliver a very large volume of marketing qualified leads, his definition. And he didn't close a single one of them and he called me really angry and fired us. And I was like, "Wait, I delivered the leads you asked for. Like you still have to close them." And he was like, "I didn't get any customers." Like I can't deliver customers. I'm just your marketer. And so, I actually had this other company that I started that was to train people on how to follow up on those kinds of leads. So, I just want to say amen that that is totally true, that marketing is not a magic bullet for revenue, you still have to understand how to sell. Adam: And I tell people, and this is really important. Like, I sucked at sales calls, too at first. Like, my first couple sales calls were like George Costanza level awkward. Like, I got off and I was like "oh, that was bad for everyone." I took courses and courses and courses and courses and now they typically close but I think a lot of times people are used to hot leads coming in. So, say as an example, like I have dentists, you know, it's very easy to close someone when their friend is like, "Hey, you should check out my dentist," right? And that's what they're used to. But that's a really small, like you're' not going to get that many clients. Whereas cold leads which are what essentially paid search is, you have to do it differently and you have to really kind of see where the problem is and get them talking. And it's just like you said, like yeah, when that client cans you, it sucks, right? That's definitely happened to me. And that's kind of why I'm so paranoid. Not paranoid, what's the better word? So upfront about it where I say, "Hey, look, I'll get you the leads," I won't take on anyone I don't really think I can do it. And at this point I've done it so many times. But if you can't close them then like what's the point of even doing this? Kathleen: Yeah. Adam: You know, you need to follow up. And I found that in the bigger companies, maybe the person I'm interacting with isn't the person who follows up. Like, as an example with the lawyers, a lot of them are, what are they called? Paralegals at the front desk and they're not incentivized. Like, they don't want to call back people. So, it's a matter of really tracking it and having people fill in, like literally fill in, like I call them back at 1pm. Because I found if I didn't do that, well once I did do that rather, all of a sudden the leads got a lot better. Kathleen: Right. Adam: Which means they were calling them back. Kathleen: Yeah. I have a friend who is in the sales training world and he always talked about, like, you referred to them as hot leads. He always called those layups. He was like, "That's a layup, not a lead." Like, you have to work your leads. Adam: That's exactly right. Kathleen: Layups come to you and they want to buy from you and if you don't close them, shame on you because it's really easy. But yeah. Adam: I mean that's exactly what I talk about with the internet not being magic. Like, people think that look, we're going to post this, it always starts with, "Hey, I'm going to make a web page and everyone is going to come." Then everyone doesn't come. "Well, I'm going to spend money on Facebook." And then nothing happens. And then you know, I get them the leads and then if they don't know how to close them, or if no one warns them ahead of time, it kind of does them a disservice. Like, you know, that's why I'd rather work with a good business that wants to be great than like a business that's essentially bombing and I'm like their only hope. So, yeah, that's exactly it. If they're used to layups, you kind of got to get used to a jump shot from my sporty analogy. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, I love this whole approach and I appreciate you sharing a lot of these details. Shifting gears for a minute, there's two questions I always ask my guests and I'm really curious what you're going to say about them. The first is, we talk a ton about inbound marketing on this podcast. Is there a specific person or company that you think is really knocking it out of the park with inbound these days? Adam: Yeah, I think Drift is. And I will say, like, this is fair. I did just write an article for them, but I wrote an article for them because I found out about them and their book Conversational Marketing blew me away. So, I wrote to the head guy Dave, who actually just exited. I was like, "This is incredible. Like, I want to write an article about it." And again, they're a company I don't get a cut of, but the idea of it is that you should be hitting people basically as fast as you can. So, they're all about this chat bot which I actually have on my site. But their inbound marketing is just like mind blowing. It's just such good articles and such good content. Kathleen: They are the company that is named the most when I get answers to that question. And we actually had Dave Gerhardt as a guest on the podcast so I'll put a link to that interview in the show notes for anybody listening who wants to check it out. It's a really interesting story about leading with brand and some of the backstory on how Drift has used marketing to grow. Adam: Yeah, he's the guy I was referencing who actually just left. Kathleen: Yeah. Adam: I don't know what he's doing but he left. Kathleen: He hasn't said yet. He's starting somewhere new in January. Keeping it on the DL. I know. Second question is the world of digital marketing is changing so, so quickly. How do you personally stay up to date on everything? Adam: I'm kind of obsessed with education so I get here at five in the morning everyday and my first hour and a half is education always. And that's what I think is something really important just like, Adam piece of advice, right? I don't have any kids but if I did, I would tell them this. You know, you might have all the advantages and disadvantages in the world, right? But you can always show up on time and you can always learn stuff. Like, the only difference between me and everyone else is that I got obsessed with learning this stuff and I just do it. Like, you know, people are like, "It's so hard." I don't see anyone else here at five in the morning. So, it's like, you know, you're going to have as many advantages or disadvantages as you want, but like you can always learn the stuff. And I've spent more money on education than I would ever recommend anyone else to do actually. Kathleen: Same here. Adam: But it's worth it. Kathleen: Yeah. And the good thing actually in the world of marketing is that there are so many free educational resources. Like, so many that I don't think it's possible to exhaust them all. So, I don't think budget is ever a deterrent as far as staying up to date. There's so much you can do with no money if you just put the time in. Adam: Yeah. You got to put your excuses aside and just think of them as a challenge. So, you might say, "Look, I don't know how to make a landing page." Well guess what? I didn't either at one point. So, I went to the Unbounce Academy or whatever they called it years ago and learned how to make a marketing page. Like, I didn't know how to do things on any of the networks at one point. Like, I wasn't born on Facebook. When I was born I don't even know if the internet existed. I'm 37 so like it probably didn't. Adam: So, yeah, I would say to anyone who's interested, like, first read that book by Cialdini, we were talking about Principals of Influence to learn marketing. Like, that's basically a marketing degree. And then just do it. Be willing to lose some money, be willing to look stupid, and do it. Like, that's the only way to do it is to do it. Kathleen: Yeah. I love it. Just do it. It's like the Nike slogan but for marketing. Adam: Exactly. Exactly. How to connect with Adam Kathleen: Well, Adam, if somebody wants to learn more or connect with you and ask a question about this, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Adam: You can always go to NerdsDoItBetter.com. Like I said, we got that little Drift bot there. Or you can reach out to me on Twitter, it's definitely where I'm most active is @AdamLundquist. I also got a bunch of articles coming out to look out for in Search Engine Journal, PPC Hero, Drift. Kathleen: You're a busy guy. Adam: One more but I can't remember. There are more. You know what to do next... Kathleen: That's awesome. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes. So, definitely head there to check it out and connect with Adam. And if you're listening and you liked what you heard or you learned something new please head to Apple Podcasts and leave the podcast a five star review because that's how more people discover us. And I would be grateful for that. Kathleen: And if you know somebody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, as always, tweet me @workmommywork because I would love to interview them. Thank you so much Adam. This was really fun. Adam: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

 Discover how having a solid follow-up system still is the best way to increase sales Know the areas, and actions you need to focus on as a salesperson, rather than that soul-crushing entry typing of your client's CRM data Learn why proactive relationship management is going to kill CRM Resources/Links: Download The 44 Best Sales Tips of All Time: https://spiro.ai/blog/ Summary As Spiros CEO, Adam Honig is focused on the company's overall market strategy and vision. He is passionate about helping sales teams make more money using artificial intelligence and is the driving force behind Spiros'proactive relationship management. In this episode, Adam shares how he helps sales teams make more money using artificial intelligence and shares their mission is to help sales teams spend more time selling rather than spending time in sorting out their CRM manually. Check out these episode highlights: 01:16 – Adam's ideal client: We work mostly with small and medium-sized businesses who have a sales team. And often the sales team is field-based, meaning that they travel from client to client. 01:32 – Problem he helps solve: A lot of business owners would like to understand what their sales teams are doing, their own activity, but doing the manual work of data entry in a CRM is just a soul-sucking experience 02:11 – Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Adam: Well, there are usually two symptoms, either you don't know what the sales team is doing, or they're spending too much time updating CRM. 02:52 – Common mistakes people make when trying to solve that problem: Well, the traditional way to solve this problem is to bring up everybody who's involved in the sales process or perhaps have a large meeting. Where you force every person in the company or in the group to sit around and talk about all of your different potential customers, and it's a big waste of time. And the sales team hates that and everybody gets really bored. 03:39 – Adam's Valuable Free Action(VFA): The advice that I would give, which relates to that is to make sure that people are doing enough follow-ups. I know it feels like when you have a lead coming in that you're reaching out a lot to somebody. But reaching out a lot, even more, is really required to convert them into a customer. So, don't feel like you're not reaching out too much. You push through that and reach out more. 05:44 – Adam's Valuable Free Resource(VFR): Download The 44 Best Sales Tips of All Time: https://spiro.ai/blog/ 06:24 – Q: "what's the number one thing that I can do to increase sales?" A: Really trying to be authentic with people is super important. And when things are not right for your company, qualify people at quickly, but just really, you really want to make sure that people understand that you're coming from a point of view of trying to help them the most. That's, in my view, the best way to increase sales. Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: Info about our correspondent host: Travis has a background in sales, marketing, and strategy, and left the corporate world several years ago to start his own agency. As a copywriter by trade, his biggest skill is putting the right words, in front of the right people, at the right time. Travis has developed go-to-market strategies for grassroots apps to Fortune 500 and helped optimize up to $50k per day in Facebook Ad spend for one of the biggest startups in Asia. Transcript (Note,

 Discover how having a solid follow-up system still is the best way to increase sales Know the areas, and actions you need to focus on as a salesperson, rather than that soul-crushing entry typing of your client's CRM data Learn why proactive relationship management is going to kill CRM Resources/Links: Download The 44 Best Sales Tips of All Time: https://spiro.ai/blog/ Summary As Spiros CEO, Adam Honig is focused on the company's overall market strategy and vision. He is passionate about helping sales teams make more money using artificial intelligence and is the driving force behind Spiros'proactive relationship management. In this episode, Adam shares how he helps sales teams make more money using artificial intelligence and shares their mission is to help sales teams spend more time selling rather than spending time in sorting out their CRM manually. Check out these episode highlights: 01:16 – Adam's ideal client: We work mostly with small and medium-sized businesses who have a sales team. And often the sales team is field-based, meaning that they travel from client to client. 01:32 – Problem he helps solve: A lot of business owners would like to understand what their sales teams are doing, their own activity, but doing the manual work of data entry in a CRM is just a soul-sucking experience 02:11 – Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Adam: Well, there are usually two symptoms, either you don't know what the sales team is doing, or they're spending too much time updating CRM. 02:52 – Common mistakes people make when trying to solve that problem: Well, the traditional way to solve this problem is to bring up everybody who's involved in the sales process or perhaps have a large meeting. Where you force every person in the company or in the group to sit around and talk about all of your different potential customers, and it's a big waste of time. And the sales team hates that and everybody gets really bored. 03:39 – Adam's Valuable Free Action(VFA): The advice that I would give, which relates to that is to make sure that people are doing enough follow-ups. I know it feels like when you have a lead coming in that you're reaching out a lot to somebody. But reaching out a lot, even more, is really required to convert them into a customer. So, don't feel like you're not reaching out too much. You push through that and reach out more. 05:44 – Adam's Valuable Free Resource(VFR): Download The 44 Best Sales Tips of All Time: https://spiro.ai/blog/ 06:24 – Q: "what's the number one thing that I can do to increase sales?" A: Really trying to be authentic with people is super important. And when things are not right for your company, qualify people at quickly, but just really, you really want to make sure that people understand that you're coming from a point of view of trying to help them the most. That's, in my view, the best way to increase sales. Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “Make sure that your sales people are doing enough follow-ups.” -@spiroai Click To Tweet Info about our correspondent host: Travis has a background in sales, marketing, and strategy, and left the corporate world several years ago to start his own agency. As a copywriter by trade, his biggest skill is putting the right words, in front of the right people, at the right time. Travis has developed go-to-market strategies for grassroots apps to Fortune 500 and helped optimize up to $50k per day in Facebook Ad spend for one of the biggest startups in Asia. Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast) Travis Bennett: 0:09 Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of Marketing The Invisible. My name is Travis Bennett and I'm rocking it to you out of Yangon in Myanmar,

Why You Should Get Life Insurance    Rob: Why should you get life insurance? Today I'm chatting with you with none other than our Senior Wealth and Estate Planner, Mr. Adam Buss. First of all, tell me about the different types of life insurance that exist. Obviously, the question today is why should you own life insurance?   Adam: Well, there's two major types of insurance that we'll kind of cover. There is term insurance and there is permanent insurance and there are a variety of different contracts under each of those. A term insurance generally is meant for those who want to replace their income, to make sure that their surviving spouse is taken care of, their families are taken care, and their debts paid off if they pass away. And then there is permanent insurance. Permanent insurance is designed for a long-term need, leaving money for your estate, your beneficiaries, charitable donations covering large tax bills such as a family cottage, as an example. These are a few of the different types of things we often see.   Rob: Okay, now why should you have life insurance?   Adam: Why not? That's probably the better question. But it's probably the most selfless thing you can purchase in your lifetime is to make sure that your family's taken care of in the event that you pass away. Let's say, Rob, you had an ATM in your house that spit out $60,000 a year. Would you put insurance on it?   Rob: Absolutely.   Adam: Who wouldn't put insurance on it? You are that ATM. You are the one that has that earning power every year. Whether it's $40-100k dollars a year of salary, if you were to pass away prematurely, that just disappears. Who wouldn't want to make sure that that continue to make sure that your family's taken care of financially?   Rob: Now what about someone who says that, you know what, I'm just going to save that money and I'm just going to of a self-insure. Why would you not want to do that?   Adam: Some people may have a large amount of wealth and be self-insured, but you know, do they want to transfer that wealth to their family? Or do they want to have to spend it all just to afford to put food on the table and have nothing left for their family long-term to accomplish their goals.   Rob: Okay. Let's start with the term insurance. Term insurance as I understand, is effectively renting, right?   Adam: Precisely. Yeah.   Rob: Who would that typically be suited for?   Adam: That would be suited for, again, anybody who's looking to replace their income coverage, shorter term need – you are renting the coverage; therefore, it is cheaper than owning it long term. It is fairly affordable, and a great way to protect your family, while also covering your debt in a very affordable manner.   Rob: Okay. And then the permanent coverage, there's a few different types of that as well?   Adam: There are a few different types. There's the universal life and participating life. The idea is that it's a whole life, meaning it's around for your entire life. It is guaranteed to pay out at some point in time, hopefully many years down the road. But it is there to ensure that the long-term needs are there as a protection. I like to consider it a part of your investment component. It is a piece of the puzzle. You're investing in that long-term growth of that policy.   Rob: We do that here. It is part of the complete holistic investment picture. And if you're not sure about that, please don't hesitate to go to speaktorob.com and to book a consultation. Let's get back to this. The whole life that pays when I die. Correct?   Adam: Correct.    Rob: Does it also pay if my wife dies before?   Adam: It depends on how you structure the policy. You can have one just on your life. You can have a joint one with your spouse. Often for those for estate planning purposes, we're going to set it up as a joint last to die policy. There, both husband and wife are insured on one policy and it pays out when the second person passes away. Full Video & Blog Article on Financial Help for Widows – Top Things to do After Spouse Passes Away    Rob: What about a joint first to die policy? When would you be using that?   Adam: Those are often used for making sure that either surviving spouse is looked after financially, and there's money to pay off debt. Those are often things that we kind of see that when the first person passes away that those needs are looked after.   Rob: Okay. And the joint first to die versus the joint last to die, which one would be more expensive?   Adam: First to die would be more expensive.   Rob: Alright. Now we're insured. We're protected until we die. Now the permanent insurance you talked about – we talked earlier about cottages and stuff. Give me an example of how insurance could be potentially used to protect a cottage, or to make sure that a cottage can stay in the family.   Adam: Sure, great question. Often cottages have a large capital gain at the time when the second person passes away. Let's say you bought it for $100,000 20 years ago and 30 years from now it's going to be worth half a million dollars. That's a $400,000 gain in value that the government is going to want their share of tax on. Do you want to leave your kids a financial burden by having to either get a mortgage on that property just to pay the tax bill or having to sell the property just to pay the tax bill? Often a cheaper way is to use a permanent life insurance policy to pay out to the estate to pay that tax bill. Full Video & Blog Article on Inheritance Tax  That way the family cottage and all the memories that go with it can stay in the family   Rob: Because otherwise, if mom and dad pass away and the cottage goes to a younger child who might not have the net worth to be able to pay the tax bill, because the tax bill's payable. Whether or not the cottage is sold or not, the tax bill is payable.   Adam: Yeah.   Rob: It is a deemed disposition. I mean, whether or not they want to put a mortgage on it, maybe they can't get a mortgage on it. All of a sudden now you're left with a situation where, you've got to sell the cottage because you can't pay for it.   Adam: That's right.   Rob: Now what about individuals who built up assets and value through real estate?   Adam: That'd be a very similar concept. We do come across a lot of clients that have large rental portfolios, where they bought them at a great deal. They've grown in value over time and now there's a very large capital gain at the time of death because the real estate has also grown in value. They've also depreciated along the way to help offset some of their income tax on annual basis. Those are all things that we want to look at to come up with a solution, which is often life insurance as a way to create the liquidity for the estate instead of a having to go and sell the entire rental portfolio or have to go and get the additional unnecessary debt on that.   Rob: Okay. The one you rent, a term insurance, and the one you own permanently permanent insurance, whole life, et cetera. A lot of times this will be used in tax planning, if I understand correctly, right?   Adam: Yeah. Often one of the overall most overlooked, but most valuable tax tools is using a whole life insurance policy as a tax strategy. Those policies grow tax exempt behind the scenes. It's a great place to park money, surplus non-registered money using as a strategy within the corporation, which is a much bigger topic. But those are things that we work with our clients on a daily basis, coming up with the right strategies to put in place to save them the most tax.   Rob: It's not just to protect the risk of you or me dying. It's not just to pay a tax bill potentially or debt. That's not just to make sure the cottage stays in the family. It could also be used as a tax planning tool.   Adam: Exactly. Is absolutely a tax tool as well.   Rob: Okay. Adam, real great to chat with you. We appreciate the time today talking about life insurance and why you should have life insurance. If you do have further questions on this aspect or anything involved in financial planning, please go to speaktorob.com and schedule a free, no obligation consultation.  

What is Financial Planning? Rob: Financial planning; why it makes sense for you, what to make sure you have, and what are the pitfalls to avoid? I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, Head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. I'm here with Adam Buss. He's a CFP wizard with this kind of stuff. Senior Wealth and Estate Planner here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Adam, thanks for being here.   Adam: Thanks for having me, Rob.   Rob: All right. Adam financial plans. Who needs to have a financial plan?   Adam: Well rob in my opinion, I think everybody needs to have a financial plan.   Rob: Is your opinion biased?   Adam: (Chuckles) Well, because I do the financial planning it's automatically biased, but yes, as a financial planner, I believe everybody needs a financial plan, but everybody needs one for different reason. Everybody's at different stages of life. The ones that we often come across are those approaching retirement.   Rob: They're approaching retirement. You're thinking, oh my goodness, do I have enough cash for where am I going and do I have enough cash for retirement?   Adam: That is often the biggest question – can I retire? Sometimes it's us giving the client permission saying, yes, you have enough financial resources or cash at your disposal to retire comfortably and live that lifestyle.   Rob: The financial planning process is all about giving the client peace of mind that they can accomplish their retirement goals. Let's talk about the actual financial planning process here at the Tétrault Group for example. How does it go?   Adam: Well, we have a fairly dedicated process. It generally involves a couple of different meetings with the client. We want to sit down, we want to get to know you. We want to know what your unique goals and objectives are. There's no cookie cutter approach here. There's no one size fits all when it comes to financial planning, because unless I sit down with you and learn what's important to you, I can't try to accomplish those goals for you. We first want to do a fact finding and we want to sit down. We want to gather as much information as possible from the client. Then I go back and I work on building the financial plan. Perhaps I need to get some additional information, coordinate with the client's accountants, lawyer, anybody else that's important in that decision making process. And then I have the plan ready. We'll sit down with the client. We're going to go through everything step by step, educate them on the entire process. What's important. And then of course, it's not just simply done at that point. We want to do annual reviews. We want to make sure that we're keeping up with any changes that happen in the client's life.   Rob: If someone sells an asset perhaps, or there's a death, or maybe there's a new grandchild – those are goals that would for sure form part of the review portfolio.   Adam: We call it major life events. A death in the family and inheritance, or retirement and birth of somebody, all of those different things may change how the client views their financial goals going forward.   Rob: Okay. Let's take a look at the kind of questions on people's minds. Cashflow, or do I have enough to retire? What are some of the other questions that you would look at when you're doing the financial plan?   Adam: Often, nobody wants to pay more tax than necessary, and everybody wants to pay the least amount of tax possible. We always take that approach with clients, whether it's an incorporated individual that asks the question if they should take dividends or salary, or draw down their corporation, or start taking money from my RRSP. That's a very common one that we get. Often, it's how much money is left for my beneficiaries down the road? Can I leave more money to the family? What's my tax bill when I pass away? Those are all some of the aspects that we look at.   Rob: What are some of the pitfalls that you've seen that you're able to avoid or you're able to advise people to avoid? I'm imagining income splitting and taking money from the wrong corporation. I'm taking dividends instead of salary. What are some of those other ones that you sometimes see?   Adam: Well, those are certainly a lot of the big ones, but another is not planning ahead of time. Coming to us after you've already retired and then wondering, well, did I make the right choice? Should I have waited to retire? Should I have waited to take my Canada pension plan?   Rob: The world-famous - "Should I take my CPP" question?   Adam: That is a world-famous question and one that we see multiple times per day.   Rob: Sometimes it's too late. Once you've made that decision,   Adam: Once you decide, that's it. You're stuck with whatever choice you made.   Rob: We would take a look at that. We would take a look at income splitting. We would take a look at the tax efficiency in corporations. We would take a look at to see, I would imagine if there's any life insurance that can be used to kind of optimize wealth and what does the actually look like? So what do you actually do in a plan - it's number crunching and it's cashflow projection? Full Video and Blog Article on Income Splitting   Adam: That's the basis of it. Maybe we come back with a nice detailed report saying, okay, what does your cashflow look like in retirement? That's great. You want $6,000 per month, but where do we take that from? We're going to look at your Canada pension plan, your old age security, your work pension, your corporate dollars, your RRSP or RRIF or your tax free. Where is the most logical and efficient way that we can get to that goal of $6,000 per month   Rob: And then you will build that year by year.   Adam: Yes.   Rob: Until you're 90-95 something like that.   Adam: Yeah. We generally try to use fairly conservative planning projected out until mid-nineties to ensure that the client does not run out of financial resources.   Rob: What about this comment I hear all the time that you need 70% of your income in retirement to live? What do you think about that?   Adam: I would view that as a common misconception. If I'm working today and retire tomorrow, my lifestyle and expenses are probably the same. I can't say that I need 70% of my income. Perhaps I want to travel more in retirement time. My expenses may actually go up. There is no one size fits all. It's about us getting to know the client, their goals, their objectives, their cashflow needs to make sure that we are achieving their target number that they want to spend.   Rob: The great thing is, is that it's truly a year by year breakdown. If there is a year where you would maybe sell the home or sell the cottage or get an inheritance, that can be factored into the plan.   Adam: Absolutely. We want to update it as time goes on as well. You may know that you're going to get an inheritance down the road, but we don't build it in. We wait for it to have actually happened. If we have a real dollar, we'll factor it in. We can estimate when you're going to sell the cottage or when you're going to sell the house. Perhaps you want to downsize, or you want to sell the family cottage down the road.   Rob: I imagine that there are some years where there's going to be less expenditures potentially down the line. These plans are very nimble and you're able to front load them for some clients, with more cashflow needed in years 1 to 10 and less cashflow needed potentially at the back end.   Adam: We see that very often with clients. They have a higher need for the first 10 to 15 years of retirement. They're more active years, they want to travel more. You want to do a lot of fun things while you're healthy and able to do these. You need more cash to do that. We want to add more cash to the budget for the first couple of years and then reduce that down over time.   Rob: See, at the end of the day, our goal here is to protect the wealth. Makes sure that we can answer the question as to can I retire? Like the financial planning process is initially is going to be, can I retire? That's the question. And then it's going to be optimized.   Adam: Absolutely.   Rob: Which accounts? Tax efficiency, leaving more to the estate, protecting the wealth. It truly is a fun process. We've gone through it so many times with clients and I find that it brings me great joy because when we do deliver that plan to the clients, they are so thrilled. They're so excited, they have an answer, they know they have peace of mind and they tell us how unbelievable it is for them to get this peace of mind. Thanks for, thanks for coming Adam today. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with us about financial planning and how important it is for clients.

Corporate Owned Life Insurance (H1)   Rob: Corporate owned life insurance is a neat way to save some taxes inside of your corporation while also protecting any and all risk inside your corporation. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. This is Adam Buss. He's a really smart guy and we're thrilled to have him here.   Adam: Thanks for having me.   Rob: A bit of a superstar. All right, Adam - corporately owned insurance. Where do we begin?   Adam: Well first of all, who doesn't love talking about life insurance; it doesn't get any more exciting of a topic than that! But there's a variety of reasons that somebody may want to have corporately owned life insurance. Often, we see buy/sell agreements, which are a great way of kind of protecting the corporation.   Rob: Okay. So, you and I are partners in a business. We put in our shareholders' agreement, and there's an agreement where if I pass or if you pass, you're buying out my shares.   Adam: I'm going to buy your shares from you. It's pre-agreed upon that this is what's going to happen. But I don't want to go to the bank and borrow, let's say half a million dollars to buy you out from the corporation.   Rob: Right.   Adam: I'm going to put life insurance on you, and if you pass away, that guarantees that there is cash in place for me to buy your shares …     Rob: And then that money goes?   Adam: To your estate.   Rob: To my estate, to my family, and that just comes out?   Adam: Yeah. It's guarantee that that is going to happen. It gives the liquidity; your family has the peace of mind knowing that the cash is there for that transaction.   Rob: Okay. For that, I assume you'd have to factor in growth of the company and that would be like the corporation would pay for both of our policies. I understand.   Adam: Yeah. It's much more efficient if you have the corporation own the policies, as it's paid with after tax corporate dollars instead of after-tax personal dollars. As we all know, the corporate tax rate is a lot lower than the personal tax rate if you had to pay for that policy yourself.   Rob: We're chugging along, we're running our business, and the corporation has a monthly expense or an annual expense for insurance. But you and I don't suffer as a result in our day to day salary or anything. And if ever anything happens to me heaven forbid, you get the company; you get ownership of it and my family gets the wealth.   Adam: Exactly.   Rob: It's a neat way to structure something to protect ourselves and our interest. Because you know, if there's no USA in place, maybe my wife now gets the shares or my partner or my estate gets the shares. Maybe they don't know anything about our business. It could be complicated. That's very important to look at.   Adam: Absolutely, it's a key component.   Rob: That's one. You could do buy/sell agreement. What else could corporately owned insurance cover?   Adam: Well, a lot of corporations have debt within the corporations; whether it's buying real estate or operating loans, it's nice to have that debt paid off in in case of one of the key owners of the corporation passing away. Often banks require that the loans have adequate insurance coverage on it as well to give them the peace of mind that if the key employee, let's say Rob, passes away, that they're going to get their money to pay off that loan.   Rob: Okay. You're covering the debt much like you would like on a mortgage or personal debt.   Adam: Yes.   Rob: Okay. You're covering the debt now. What about a key person - you hear that term a lot for sure?   Adam: Yeah. A key person is basically there to make sure that any lost income for that corporation could be replaced if that key individual was to pass away. There's also such things as key person for critical illness or disability coverage. It's a way of the corporation protecting its earnings in the event that that key individual passes away or experiences and unfortunate illness.   Rob: That would likely be for a corporation where there's potentially one or two individuals that are driving most of the revenue in the corporation.   Adam: Yes.   Rob: A trade perhaps, or a consulting business where one individual is driving a lot of the revenue.   Adam: Absolutely.   Rob: Okay. And then you insure the protection. That person's no longer to drive the revenue. You insure that. And then the corporation still has the assets. And the estate benefits from that.   Adam: You bet.   Rob: Okay. What about these tax planning strategies that I hear about where you're using corporate dollars to pay for a policy to effectively protect some wealth long-term, and to pull some money out of the corp effectively tax free?   Adam: Absolutely. It is a great strategy we talk to clients pretty much every day about which is using a whole life insurance policy owned by the corporation, paid for by the corporation. Again, it's paying for it with after tax corporate dollars. And the idea is to try to get some of that cash out to the beneficiaries tax-free, or maybe to pay a tax liability on the disposition of your corporate shares when you pass away, maybe a large real estate tax liability, or you just have far too much money in your corporation, which is a good problem to have. But we want to try to get that out tax free to your beneficiaries as much as possible. And whole life insurance is one of the best strategies to do that.   Rob: Okay. So let's talk about that last scenario. You've got too much money in your corp; great problem to have by the way. Super fun problem. So you've got a ton of money in your corp. You're not going to be able to spend it all. You're in the kind of high net worth ranking - you would consider yourself to be high net worth. There's a lot of money built up in the corp, but you do it through an operating company or a holding company. So, you've made profits in your operating company. Maybe it's moved to the company. Now there's wealth that's accumulated there. You're never going to spend it. You've got RRSPs, you've got TFSAs. Is that a situation where you could potentially consider a whole life policy?   Adam: It's certainly something that we take a deep dive into every client's unique situation. I want to address and see, okay, how much of this corporate cash is actually needed to fund your lifestyle over time? Is any of it earmarked for a particular corporate project? Maybe the person wants to go and buy a new rental property in the near future, but we want to look at how much of that cash is surplus and is just sitting there. You're having to pay tax every year on the investment growth and we want to see how we can try to make that a bit more tax efficient moving forward. We're basically going to take some of that corporate cash every year and shift it from pocket A to pocket B into a tax-exempt life insurance policy where all of the growth is tax sheltered. Down the road when you pass away, it pays out to the corporation 100 percent tax free and then it pays out to the beneficiaries of your estate through the CDA credit.   Rob: The CDA would be the capital dividend?   Adam: The capital dividend account, which is a tax-free amount that can come out of the corporation.   Rob: The corporation pays the insurance policy, correct? I pass away the corporation gets it tax free. Yes, the million or 2 million or whatever it may be. Absolutely. And then it also comes out of there completely tax free through the CDA.   Adam: Yes. So generally it is going to be completely tax free. There may be a portion which is taxable, but it's very minor by comparison and generally the tax savings is huge by comparison to not having the strategy put in place.   Rob: This would not be a situation like we've done in some other videos where we've talked about protecting risk through insurance. This would not be a situation where you're trying to protect the risk. This would be a situation where you're trying to optimize your estate for...   Adam: Optimizing your estate. You're optimizing your tax efficiency for your corporation. Some people will use it as a tool to avoid the small business deduction. The grind on the small business tax rates since they implemented the passive income changes. Any income generate within the life insurance policy does not apply towards the passive income.   Rob: It's exempt from that $60 grand rule?   Adam: Yes.   Rob: The passive income grind, if you make more than $50 grand of passive income annually in your corporation, your small business tax rate exemption gets grinded away. And this income would exempt that.   Adam: That's correct.   Rob: Okay, so just another way to shelter income. All right, we've talked about a whole bunch of different things – we talked about protecting debt, we talked about key person insurance, we talked about the tax efficient strategies, and we've talked about the buy sell agreements. Anything else you can think of that would make sense for a corporately owned policy? Full Blog Article and Video on How to Prepare a Sound Retirement & Estate Planning Strategy  I guess the key thing we're taking away from all this is you're not paying this with after tax dollars, right?   Adam: Yeah. You're paying it with after tax personal dollars. It's maybe costing you, you know, 90 cents on the dollar instead of more because you're using after tax corporate dollars and you have a fantastic low corporate tax rate. The other thing we often look at is which corporation, if you have multiple, should these policies be owned. Again, that's something we look at with our clients to make sure we find the right fit.   Rob: Many times, we'll meet a client and their insurance is either not owned by the right corporation or we're being paid by the wrong corporation or its own personal when it should be owned corporately.   Adam: Yep.   Rob: This is stuff that I feel is fairly high level and you probably need really good advice on this. If that's something that's on your mind, make sure to go to speaktorob.com to get a free consultation with us. Adam, I thank you for your time today. We looked at a lot of really neat things. I'm Rob Tétrault from robtetrault.com, head of the Tétrault Wealth Advisory Group here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management. Today I had with me Adam Buss, Senior Wealth and Estate Planner here at Canaccord Genuity Wealth Management.  

Adam: Hello everybody. This is Adam Evers. I am the CEO and founder of Believr, and this is Inside Believr, building an LGBTQ plus Christian dating app.Adam: All right everybody, this is Adam, and I have a special guest with me, Brandon Flannery. Brandon is like-Brandon: Hello. (Laughs).Adam: Brandon would you like to describe in ... Like, who are you? Who is Brandon Flannery?Brandon: Who ... That's such a, um, what's the word I'm looking for, like existential question (laughs).Adam: I can't go that deep on the podcast.Brandon: (Laughs). Um, yeah. I am Brandon Flannery. Um, I've known Adam since I was 14. Um, I, we've had some years together, and um, I am one of the co-founders of Believr, and I work with ... Kind of anything words within Believr as itself, and I also keep Adam in line (laughs).Adam: Fair, fair statement (laughs).Brandon: (Laughs).Adam: Cool. So, today, uh, what I wanted to do on the podcast is actually, um, so Brandon and I, actually the entire team, went through this massive process of really like digging through what we valued as a company. So right now, it's myself, Brandon, um, Pascal, Erika, and, uh, and Noah as well. And we all kind of went through values to figure out, like, what we wanted as our values as a company. Um, so we came together as a team, kind of talked and spit balled about all the values that we all like individually hold, and what we want, like Believr to stand for. Um, and there was like five main ones that kind of bubbled, and surfaced to the top.Adam: Um, and we're going to go through the first one today. Um, on the podcast, and kind of talk about it. Um, and then we can kind of talk to this. And like just, as a side note, Brandon and I have like, we have argued literally about probably every single word in every single one of the sentences that I'm about to read you. Um, we stayed up very late multiple nights talking about this, so these being like a tremendous amount to us.Brandon: And I'm on Mountain Time, so it was a lot later for me (laughs).Adam: (Laughs). That's fair. Brandon's like up until 3:00 a.m. in the morning, and I'm like, "We must finish Brandon." So, yeah. Um, yeah. Would you, would you add anything Brandon?Brandon: No, let's uh, well, I, I will add one thing. Um, as we go through the, the words, um, so we'll have our different values, you will notice that there are actually going to be verbs. And, the intention there is just that we wanted action around what we stand for it. Not just something like, uh, abstract idea, or um, or an adjective describing something. We really wanted to put movement, and um, action to every single thing that we're standing for. So you'll notice that as we go through these, you'll notice that within each of the words. Um, so yeah. But, w-, with the first one, as Adam said it'll be believe, and it's ... We'll be following that, um, format.Adam: Yeah, cool. Uh, and just FYI, we're only going to do believe today, Brandon. We're going to wait, we're going to build other ones, do the rest of them, just so you know. Great.Brandon: No [inaudible 00:02:54] worth, are we Adam? (Laughs).Adam: Yes. Podcast, every time. Get people excited. You got to release them, we have to get people excited, you know? One a week. One a week. We're not going to just divulge everything right now.Brandon: This is where he also keeps me on my knees, I want to say, "Here is everything."Adam: Yeah, and I'm like, "No. Build up the suspense."Brandon: Also though, I, I honestly think the one, the last one is probably the best, but that's just me. Um, and I think fourth is my favorite. Go ahead.Adam: I know, that's interesting. Yeah, fourth we fought on a lot too. Okay, anyways. Sorry. Sorry listeners.Brandon: (Laughs).Adam: Okay, uh, so the first one is believe, um, and I will read it to you now. So believe. We believe in love, we are a people of faith, and we trust that what we are doing has purpose. We believe that every person is worthy of love. We believe that God loves everyone, regardless of how they identify, and we believe what we are doing will create positive change within ourselves, the community, and in the world.Brandon: Uh, it's so good. (Laughs).Adam: I just whatever ... I don't know, I just like whenever I hear these, these values, I just get chills. Um, and I really like this one. Um, so yeah, let's talk about it. Brandon. Why was this one important to you?Brandon: I think the reason It had to be first, and the reason why it came to the surface to begin with is we knew that the pri-, uh, there'll be a lot of things that I'm really excited about with Believr, and what it's standing for, but really this came out of a need. Um, and a need was for LGBTQ people who have a faith in Jesus Christ, and so that, oh, can you still hear me?Adam: Yeah.Brandon: Sorry. My little old thing. It popped up. But, were people of faith, and um, uh, and, I, I wanted to be the, at the forefront, not just for the sake of sh-, showcasing that we are a platform that does put faith first, but more than that, um, we believe that we do believe in love, I do appreciate that Pascal really, rea-, really fought for that part of it. Because it is true that it's something that we, we do believe in, it's what we are fighting for. Um, and the fact that making a statement that says, "You are worthy of love," because I think so many of us within the community, especially growing up in, um, places of faith, um, and religious backgrounds were told that we weren't.Brandon: Um, and I think it was so important to remember every LGBTQ persons of faith. I mean, not everyone, we all have different stories, and it's nuanced, but to put that at the forefront of everything that we do, of our history, and what we are trying to, um, change, and what we believe, truly, uh, is possible, in spite of what other people have told us.Adam: Yeah. No, uh, that was good. Um, the only thing I would add is like for me, believe is, is really about like aligning just all the things that I think about Believr, so love, everyone has value. Everyone is worthy, and deserves love. Like, that's really important to me, and I think that's a big value that I'm glad that has like come through across the team. Um, the other one is like just that we want to create something different within the community, with this application. Like, we're not, just, we don't want to be like other apps, we don't want to be like other communities.Adam: We want to be different, um, and create a positive change in like society, and in ourselves, and in the community, and in the world ultimately. You know and I, what does that change, and what does that look like? I don't really know, but I think we're fighting for at least a positive change, um, moving forward and what does that, what does that look like? I think, like, we're i-, we're in this adventure, and we're going to find out, like, I think the thing that I think about first and foremost is like reconciliation with faith communities, and like the LGBTQ plus family.Adam: Um, what does that look like? I honestly, I don't know, but I think there is a growing movement, um, in progressive Christianity, and there's a growing movement just in Christianity in general to be more accepting, and, and have a broader theology than one that has been passed down, I think, for generations. Um, and I think this believe verb, if you will, kind of encompasses that a little bit, where it's like, "Hey, we believe that this is, has a purpose, and we believe that everyone is worthy of love, and that regardless of how people identify, like they are value. They are valued, excuse me.Adam: Um, that's just really important to me. So-Brandon: Yeah. I, I think also something that I'm realizing as we're chatting about it is, um, I know for us, um-Adam: Who's us?Brandon: Because we've had convers- ... Me and, you and I (laughs).Adam: Okay.Brandon: Um-Adam: Making sure.Brandon: Yeah. Uh, h-, i-, in the birthing moments of Believr, and all the way up 'til today, well there's been moments where both of us have been like, "l-, is this what we should do?" Or, "Is this right?" Or, "I got a life to live. Ow." And um-Adam: As we record this podcast, the technical [crosstalk 00:07:42] at night.Brandon: (Laughs).Adam: Or, a lot of your time 10 via my time.Brandon: Um, as life, you know, s-, the stressors of life come through, and we're trying to build this thing, I think there's been times where we're, we've been, are we ... Does this matter? Um, you know, and, um, is it worth it? Um, all the energy that we're putting into it. And, I just think of our time at GCF this past year, and the amount of people that approached us, and said how needed a platform like this is, and so it's just a reminder to me that yes, we're excited about it for ourselves, yes, we believe in the product, and we have a great team building something really beautiful. But, at the end of the day it is ... We believe that it, it really, um, is something that is needed, and we want to, we want to provide that, so-Adam: Yeah. Well, and it's the ... It's funny you say that, because I actually got a direct message on our Twitter account earlier today. Um, I won't name who the person is, because they're closeted, but I'll say, I'll read their direct message real quick. Um, the person says, "As a gay, or, as a closeted gay Christian, this means a lot to me. A community where I can be loved for who I am." And then they asked, of course, the burning, the most burning question that everyone asks, "When are you launching?" Uh, which I always think is funny. Um, but yeah. I think-Brandon: 10 (laughs).Adam: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think like, um, uh, Brandon knows this but like, I don't think the rest of the community does, but like, um, whenever I get messages like that, or whenever we get messages like that, I, I, I screen shot them, or take them, and um, put them into our internal slack channel. Um, and, with a channel that's just called, "The why." Um, and the reason for that is because I think it helps all of us just really center on like why we're doing this. U, and why this matters.Adam: And why I think, um, you know this, this is just bigger than ourselves, and I think both of us probably ... Brandon and I both feel the weight of that. I know I do. Um, for sure, because it's just how many people have reached out, and said things, and mentioned things, and so I think believe, the verb there, actually encompasses a little bit about that too. Like, we're believing in ourselves, we're believing in the community, we're believing in something that's way bigger than either of us possibly could have imagined. (Laughs).Adam: Like, even the people that have just like reached out, or like, um, like encouraged us, or have been like, "Hey, I'm like rooting for you," and the text messages that I get, and the messages and everything it's, it's so, it's really cool.Brandon: And our, and our team, like I'm blown away by the, the people that have been sent our way. Because I am the product that is being created is amazing (laughs), and great job Erika and Pascal (laughs).Adam: I know, seriously. So, like-Brandon: It is, it is gorgeous. So-Adam: Brandon and I, we uh, we had a, we have a weekly meeting on Wednesdays, and we're recording this on a Wednesday right after, not right after, but we had a team meeting earlier this morning, and like, I, after our meeting I was just blown away with how, like good, the designs were, and like we're looking at screen designs today, and like how just smart, and how, um, thoughtful I think everybody is about like just every interaction, what we include, what we don't include, why we do it, why we don't do it. Um, I think that's just super, super cool. Um, oh, let's do something, let's do something fun.Adam: Um, what's something today that like, we talked about in the product, that we can talk about on the podcast, that we like debated on?Brandon: (Laughs). I mean, we debated about the profiles (laughs).Adam: We did. We did. So, actually this is in-, really interesting. So, one of the things that we talked about was like, how do we, how do we display people, and how do we do, um, profiles, and do them well. And like, one of the things that we thought about was like ho-, um, m-, uh, making the profile image, or the profile, like whatever, like really big in the f-, in the forefront.Adam: And so what we actually ended up deciding is, uh, making it so that you can either show your bio first, so your, like, you know, short, uh, 240 character like bio, or, um, you're able to show a picture. So it's up to you if you want to show either a bio or a picture. Which we came to ... Brandon do you want to talk to you, like how we came to that kind of decision?Brandon: Yeah. Um, I think that virtual spaces offer a unique nuance, versus being in person. So this is a point of contention with Adam and I (Laughs).Adam: (Laughs).Brandon: Uh, Adam said when you want to ask someone out, y-, y-, the first thing you notice is, is them, like how they look and things like that, and I'm just like, "You're not wrong." But, um, one thing I do love about virtual spaces is the fact of you get to, um, get to some deeper things, um ... I want to, maybe not, yeah, I'll take deeper things like than just the skin. Um, and so I wanted more data to appear more quickly about a person. Because I want to be able to read about who they are, and, um, what are, what are they passionate about? And, the, you know, within Believr, one of our number one things that we're excited about is the value space matching, you know. We wanted to see those, those values like first thing.Brandon: So, um, yeah. It was a point of contention, because I really wanted those things, and Adam really wanted a picture to be the very first thing. And so, um, I think it, what's really nice is where we're at now is you will have this really nice large picture of the person, you do get a percentage of, of values match, and then you do see the values, and then you can easily start scrolling, um, or you can do, or do the bio. So, yeah.Adam: Yeah. No, I, I think, uh, we, we definitely worked through that all together, and I really appreciated the conversation, and why, like Brandon's points, and my points, and I think we came to a good solution. And I think we'll be really, really, work really, really well for our users. So I'm excited about that. And we're doing user testing, which is kind of cool, so they can, they'll tell us whether or not it's a good idea or not. They're like, "That was stupid," and we'll be like, "Okay." (Laughs). Well, back to the drawing board. (Laughs).Brandon: (Laughs). Oh yeah.Adam: Well, I think that's about it. Anything else you would say, Brandon, before we wrap up?Brandon: Uh, thank you for your support. It means a lot, so ... To all of our listeners.Adam: Yeah. No, that's good. That's really good. Yeah. Thank you listeners, we appreciate it. Um, that's it for now. We'll be back next week with our next value. Um, I hopefully will relea-, will release it like sometime Monday or Tuesday, um, and then we'll get rolling. Uh, thanks so much for listening, and supporting us. Really appreciate it. Please feel free to, if you have any questions or comments, whatever, uh, feel free to email us, just hello at Believr.app. Just hello at Believr.app, and we'll get back to you. Awesome. Thanks guys. Bye.Brandon: Bye bye.

My Guest this week is Adam Wiggins, the cofounder of Ink & Switch — an independent industrial research lab working on digital tools for creativity and productivity.   The topic of the conversation is the future of product-focused R&D, the Hollywood Model of work in tech, Ink & Switch’s unique organizational structure, and whether it can be extended to other areas of research.   Links Adam Wiggins’ Home Page Adam on Twitter Ink & Switch's Home Page A presentation on Ink & Switch's Structure Sloan Review Article on Applying Hollywood Model to R&D (Paywalled)   Transcript   How the idea came about Ben:  How did you come up with this idea? Like wait what what originated that I'm just really interested in the thought process behind there Adam: sure, you know, I think me and my partner's we come out of the sort of the startup kind of school of thought on Innovation, I think. There's a lot of way to think about there's the more academic research minded approach to Innovation. There's made which get a bigger companies. So yeah, we come out of very much from the yeah. I don't know what you want to call it ad Jolene startup y combinator or whatever that you know mix of elements is which is really about build a thing really quickly get it in front of customers minimal viable product innovate, but at least my thinking is that the startup model has been so successful in the last let's say decade. Particularly with the kind of mass production of the startup that you get through groups like y combinator such that I feel like the problems the space of problems that can be solved with that kind of, you know group of 25 25 year old Founders spending three months to build a thing not say it's let's say saturated. Yeah to some degree in that maybe the more interesting problems are like bigger or longer in scope. And so then we thought about okay. Well, what's a what's a model that is more possible for going after bigger things. And that's when I kind of fell down the rabbit hole of researching these Industrial Research Labs. I know that you spent a lot of time on as well, you know, these big famous examples like Bell labs and Xerox Parc and arpa and so forth. And of course many other examples when we thought okay, well, You know, we're not at the we're not in a position to you know, be setting up a multimillion-dollar research arm of a government or commercial institution. But what can we do on a smaller scale with a small Grant and it's kind of a scrappy band and people and that's kind of what led us to the Incan switch approach.    The Thought Process Behind the Model Ben: can you go one step further where it's  you have the constraint that you can't do  a straight-up corporate research lab, but I think there are a lot of unique ideas in terms of a model that are sort of just unique and. In that like how did you cope that Lee idea that like, okay, we're going to like have our principles. We're going to pull in people temporarily. We're going to  build this network that that seems sort of to come out of the blue. So what was what was the thought process behind that? Adam: Well, maybe it came out of the constraint of do it with very little money. And so part of that is we're trying to work on a big problem. Hopefully and I can talk about that if you want, but the in terms of the the model that we're using we came at it from do it with very little money and that in turn leads to okay. Your big costs are usually sort of like office space and then the people right, but if we can do these really short term projects, we called the Hollywood model and I can explain about that if you want the basically we have like a four or six or eight week project. You can bring in some experts on a freelance basis and you don't necessarily need to commit to paying salary is over the longer term and you couple that with no office. We have an all distributed team. We're not asking people they don't need to pick up. Move somewhere to even temporarily to work on a project. Right? And so we what we can offer them as a lot of flexibility. And so the I think there's certain there's benefits for the people to participate in these projects join, but from the lab point of view again, it was we were embracing this constraint of do it really really cheap. Yeah and that basically boiled down to very short projects people on a freelance basis only no office and that that's kind of what what led us there, but I think there actually is a lot. Benefits to doing things that way there's some big downsides as well but there's some benefits as well. So the constraint led us to the model you might say got a desire to work on a big problem in the same with a longer time Horizon like you would for a you know, a classic R&D lab, but trying to do that with a lot less money. Let us to this kind of short-term project model. The Hollywood Model in Tech Ben:  There are three things that I want to take into from that the three things are going to be  how the Hollywood model works and sort of the difference between the Hollywood model in Tech versus in Hollywood  and then like those those pros and cons and then it feels like there's a tension between working on a really big long term projects via very short term sort of Sprint demos. So. So let's let's start with the Hollywood model because in Hollywood I like after after I learned about. You doing that I sort of dug into it and it's it seems like the Hollywood model Works partially because all of Hollywood is set up so that even the best people work on this temporary basis. Whereas in Tech, it feels like you sort of have to get people who are in very special life situations in order to get the best people. So like, how do you how do you juggle that? Adam: Yeah, yeah, that is those are really good point. Well just to I guess briefly explain. The Hollywood model is please the idea. There is I actually lived in Los Angeles for a time and have a lot of friends who are trying to break into that industry and got a little exposure to that. I don't pretend to be an expert but and you can read about this online as well, which is that most movies are made by forming a an entity usually an LLC for the duration of the movie Project. You know, I might be a year or two. Here's whatever the shooting time is and everyone from the director or the camera people the whole cast the entire crew are all hired as essentially short-term contractors for whatever the duration of time their services are needed. But even someone like director who's there throughout. It's essentially a one or two-year gig for him it yeah, and everyone's fired right things right expanded and it's and it's an interesting accounting model because it means the sort of earnings from the movie in the and how that connects to the studio. And then the way the studio is invest is almost more like maybe Venture Capital invest in startups to some degree. So that's that's my understanding of it. So we kind of borrowed this idea for saying okay part of what we like about this is you get a situation. Any given person and a cameraman a crew member a member of the cast doesn't isn't guaranteed some long-term employment. They don't sign on for an indefinite thing. They sign up for the duration of the project. Right and the end everyone leaves. But what you see is that the same directors tend to hire the same crew the same. You probably noticed this most dramatically in directors that bring the same actors on to the same onto their future films because if working with them before worked, why wouldn't you bring them back? Right and so it's but it's it inverts the model of instead of we're going to keep working together by default. It's more every time a project ends. We're all going to disperse but the things that work will kind of bring back together again and just inverting the model in a subtle way. I. Produces better teams over the long term. But yeah, you get this sort of loose network of people who work and collaborate together to have more of an independent contractor gig mindset and I think that was yeah it was inspired by that and like you said, can we bring that to kind of Technology Innovation?    How do you incentivize the hollywood model? Ben: Most people in Tech don't do that. So, how do you sort of generate? How do you get the best people to come along for that model? Adam: That was definitely a big unknown going into it and certainly could have been a showstopper. I was surprised to discover how many great people we were able to get on board maybe because we have an interesting Mission maybe because me and some of the other. Core people in the team have you know just good networks good career Capital. Yeah, but actually it's that more people are in between spaces and you might guess so quite a lot to work with us on projects. Certainly. There's just people who are straight. You know, they made freelancing or some kind of independent Contracting be their business, right so that those folks are to work with a lot of folks that do open source things, you know, we work a lot of people from the DAT Community, for example, a lot of folks there. They actually do make a livelihood through some degree of freelancing in this space. So that's an easy one. But more common I think is you think of that. Yeah full-time salaried software engineer or product design or what have you and they. You know, maybe they do a new job every few years, but they're expecting a full employment salary HR benefits, you know the lunch on campus and the you know, the massages and you know yoga classes and so I was worried that trying to you know compete to get Talent like that when all we have to offer these very short term projects would be difficult. But as it turned out a lot of people are in some kind of in-between space. We're really interesting. Project with an interesting team good sort of in between things maybe a palate cleanser in a lot of cases turned out to be quite interesting. So we got a lot of people who are you know, they're basically looking for their next full-time gig but then they see what we have to offer and they go oh, you know, that's actually quite interesting and they can keep looking for the next job while they're working with us or whatever. Yeah their Habits Like do this thing is like an in-between thing onto the way that are to their next. Employment or we have situations like, you know one person we were able to get on the team with someone who is on Parental. Leave from their startup and so basically wanted to be like getting the mental stimulation of a project but couldn't really go into the office due to needing to take care of an infant, right? Um, and so by working with us was able to get some nice in that case part-time work and some mental stimulation and a chance to build some skills in the short term in a way that was compatible with. Needing to be home to for childcare. So the a lot of cases like that. I think so it granted, you know people that are looking for full-time gigs. We can't give them the best offer in the world. But there's a surprising number of people that are willing to take a weird interesting kind of cool learning oriented project in between there. May be more conventional jobs. Building from scratch with the Hollywood Model? Ben: Yeah. Because one of the things that I'm constantly thinking about what I'm asking these questions is how do we have more things using the same model in the world? Because I think it's a really cool model that not many people are using and so it's like what like could there be a world where there are people who just go from like one to the other and then would be an interesting shift in the industry to be a little more gig oriented or Independent. Contractor oriented versus the sort of the full-time job expectation that folks have now. Yeah and another sort of difference between I think Hollywood and Tech is that Hollywood you're always sort of Reinventing things from scratch. Whereas in tech there is code and and things that sort of get passed on and built on top of . Do you do you run into any problems with that or is it just because like every every experiment is sort of its own its own thing. You don't you don't have that problem. Adam: Yeah, the building on what came before is obviously really important for a lot of our projects. We were pretty all over the place in terms of platforms. And that was on purpose we built a bunch. Projects on the iOS platform we bought built from on the Microsoft Surface platform. We've done in various different web Technologies, including electron and classic web apps and so in many cases there is not a direct, you know, even if we had written a library to do the thing we needed in the other thing. We actually couldn't bring that over in that kind of build it all from scratch each time or or the the mic slate of it. I think is part of what makes it creative or forced to rethink things and not just rely on the. Previous assumptions that said. You know for certain tracks to research you might call it a big one for us is this world of like CR DTS and essentially like getting a lot of the value of getting a lot of capabilities that you expect from cloud Solutions real time collaboration Google Docs style of being able to do that and more peer-to-peer or less centralized oriented environment. And so we in an earlier project. We built a library called Auto merge just in JavaScript and it was being plugged into our electron app and. And in future projects, we wanted to build on top of that and we have done a number of subsequent projects some of which were but obviously they needed to like use the JavaScript runtime in some ways. So if we were doing another electron project, yes, you can do that but that and then another case, you know, we wanted to go with tablet thing. All right. Well that limits us because we can't use that library in other places. And in one case is we chose to build for example in the Chrome OS platform because we can get a tablet there and partially because we already had this investment in kind of. Script ecosystem through these libraries. But yeah again that comes with comes with trade-offs to some degree. So so we're always trying to balance build on what we made before. But also we're really willing to kind of start over or do the blank canvas because we really feel like at this. Level of early Innovation. What matters is the learning and what lessons you learn from past projects and you could often rebuild things in a fraction of the time in some cases we have actually done that is rebuilt an entire project sort of like feature complete from what on a completely different platform. But if you can skip past all the false turns and you know Discovery process and to build what you where you ended up it's often something that can be done in just a tiny fraction of the time or cost Knowledge Transfer in the Ink&Switch Model Ben: Got it. And  do you have a way of transferring learning between  different groups of temporary people that things like would be one tricky piece. Adam: Absolutely. Well an important thing here is we do have core lab members both. We have some principal investigators who are people that are around long-term and are the people that drive our projects and their, you know, carry a lot of those learnings both the Practical ones, but also like culture. Cultural elements and then a lot of the folks we work with they'll come back to work for a future project. But yeah, absolutely every given project is a new combination of people some existing people in the lab. They carry forward some of those learnings and then some people who are new and so we've had to do we tried a variety of approaches to kind of. Do a mental download or crash course and you know, none of it's perfect. Right because so much knowledge. Is that even though we take a lot of time to do a big retrospective at the end of our projects try to write out both raw notes, but also like a summarize here's what we learn from this project even with that and sharing that information with new people so much of what you learn is like tacit knowledge. It's somehow, you know more in your gut than in your head. And so to some degree we do count on the people that are more standing numbers that go project project in some cases. We do have to relearn small lessons each time. And again that that somewhat is a you know, if you start over from scratch and you kind of start from the same premises then you often discover some of the same same learnings. I think that's okay as long as we get a little faster each. Each time and then yeah combine that with learning documents and I don't know for example, we're actually the point now we have enough projects under our belt. We actually have a deck that is like here's all our past projects and kind of a really quick crash course summary, at least here's what they're called and least when people reference. Oh, yeah. That's the way we did things on Project number five right was called this and you can be like at least have some context for that. And so short answer is we haven't solved the problem but here's some things that at least have helped with that. Yeah, and how many projects have you done in total? Yeah. Well depends on exactly how you count. But when it comes to what we consider the sort of the full list called formal projects, which is we spend some time kind of wandering around in a in a period of time to call pre-infusion named after the the espresso machine for the sort of record time. You put in the water to kind of warm up the grounds. So the version of that and once we have basically a process where once principal investigator finds a project with egg, I think there's a really promising area and we should fund this. Okay. Now we're going to go actually hire experts that are specific to this area. We're going to commit to doing this for again six weeks or eight weeks something on that order. There's a project brief we present basically present that to our board to basically give like a thumbs up thumbs down. I'm so if you count stuff that has been through that whole process we've now done 10 projects cool. That's over the course of about three years. Ink&Switch Speed vs. Startup Speed Ben: Yeah, that's that's really good compared to. Like I start up where you do one project and takes three years. Adam:  I need to maybe feels sometimes it feels slow to me. But honestly, we spend as much time trying to figure out what it is that we want to do as actually doing it and then suspend a really good bit of time again trying to retrospect pull out the learnings actually figure out. What did we learn? You know, we usually come out with strong feelings and strong Instinct for kind of this work. This didn't work. We'd like to continue this. There's more to research here. This is really promising. This was a dead end but actually takes quite a bit of time to really digest that and turn it into something and then kind of the context shift of okay. Now, let me reorient and switch gears to a new project is really a whole skill, too. To be doing such a rapid turnover, I think and I think we've gotten decent at it over the last few years, but I think you get a lot better if you wanted to keep at it. Ink&Switch's Mission and Reconciling Long Term Thinking with Short Term Projects Ben: Yeah. And I've actually like to step back real fast to the bookmark in terms of  a the big picture long-term thinking like what is in your mind the real Mission here and B. How do you square these? Like, how do you. Generate  a long-term result from a whole bunch of short term projects. Adam:  right. Yeah, really cool problem. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah and one again, I don't pretend to have answers to we're still in the middle of this experiment will see if it actually actually works. Yeah, let me start by just briefly summarizing our our mission or a theme. I like to think of it a little bit right like typically these and these great examples of successful Industrial Research Labs, you know for Bell Labs or theme was this Universal connectivity that has Bell had this growing Communications Network and they wanted to like solve all the problems that had to do with trying to tie together an entire nation with Communications technology or Xerox Parc. Of course, they had this office of the future idea. It's. How many papers and copier what is it going to be? I think you need a theme that is pretty broad. But still you're not just doing a bunch of random stuff that people there, you know think it's cool or interesting new technologies. It's tied together in some way. So for us our theme or a research area is Computing for productivity and creativity. Sort of what the digital tools that let us do things like write or paint or do science or make art are going to look like in future and we were particularly drawn to this and. And our investors were drawn to this because so much of the brain power and money and general Innovation horsepower in Silicon Valley certainly the tech industry broadly and even to some degree in Academia computer interaction research and so on it really pointed what I would call consumer technology. Right, it does social media It's Entertainment. It's games. It's shopping. Yeah, and and that's really a phenomenon just the last five or ten years, right the successful smartphones the fact that sort of computing has become so ubiquitous and mass-market its health and fitness trackers yet wearable, and you know, that's all great, but. I think that the more inspiring uses the more interesting uses of computers for me personally. I things that are about creativity there about self-improvement there about productivity and when you look at what the state of I'm going to look like a spreadsheet, right if you look at Excel in 1995 and you compare that to Google Sheets in 2018 the kind of looks the same. Yep, you know, it's at a Google Sheets as real-time collaboration, which is great. Don't get me wrong. But basically the same kind of program, right? Yeah. And I think you can say that same thing for many different categories Photoshop or presentation software note-taking software that sort of thing. There's some Innovation to give me to go get me wrong, but it just feels very out of balance how much again of that Innovation horsepower of our industry broad. They could go into Super Side. So for us the theme is around all right. We look forward five or ten years to what we're using to be productive or created with computers. What does it look like and you know, the reality is desktop operating systems or more and more kind of advanced mode because that's not where apple or Microsoft revenue is anywhere. But at the same time I don't think it's you know, touch platform particularly, you know are built around phones and consumer Technologies and sort of the pro uses of them tend to be kind of attack on afterthought. And so it sort of feels like we're in a weird dead end which is like what are we going to be doing 10 years from now to yeah do a science paper or write a book or make a master thesis or write a film script? It's hard to picture and but actually picturing it is that's that's sort of our the job of our research here. Ben:  and  that is a really long term project because you sort of need to go  back down the mountain a little bit to figure out what the what the other mountain is. Adam: Absolutely. Yeah the local Maxima of some kind and so maybe you need to yeah be a little. Out of the out of the box and go away from basically make things worse before they get better. Aside on AI Enabled Creativity Tools Ben: Yeah, just aside on that. Have you been paying attention to any of the sort of like a I enabled creativity tools? This is just been on my mind because Neurosis is coming up and there's some people who have been doing some like pretty cool stuff in terms of like. Enhance creativity tools were like maybe you start typing and then it starts completing the sentence for you and and or like you sort of like draw like a green blob and it fills in a mountain and then you sort of like just adjust it. Have you been paying any attention to those tools at all? Adam: Yeah. Absolutely. Some of the follow sir pokes on Twitter that post really interesting things in that vein that hasn't been an area of research for us partially because maybe we're a little contrarian and we like to kind of look where. You are looking and I feel like Ai, and that kind of Realm of things is very well. Or I should say a lot of people are interested in that that said yeah, I think to me one of the most interesting cases with that is usually we talk about with like generative design or things like. Sot great Target Range Loop last year by an architect who basically uses various kind of solvers we plug in like here's the criteria we have for like a building face, you know, we need the window has to be under the, you know can't because of the material dimensions and the legal things and whatever it can't be here's the constraints on it. But here's what we want out of the design. You can plug that in and the computer will give you sort of every possible permutation. And so it's a pretty natural step to go from there to then having some kind of. Algorithm whether it be here a stick or something more learning oriented, which is then try to figure out from that superset of every possible design satisfies the constraint which of them are actually sort of the best in some sense or fit what we said that we like before where we use, you know, the client or the market or whatever it is you're looking for. So I think there's a lot of potential there as I think it was more of an assistive device. I get a little skeptical when it gets into the like let's get the computers to do our thinking for us. Yeah realm of things. I would say, you know, I think you see with the fit and of the sort of auto complete version of this, but but yeah, but then but then maybe I you know, I love that artisanal Craftsman, you know, some kind of unique vibe that humans bring to the table and so yeah tools as. Assisting us and helping us and working in tandem with us and I think yeah, there's one probably a lot of potential for a eye on that that said that's not an area where researching. Ben: Yeah. I just I wanted to make sure that was on your radar because like that's that's something that I pay a lot of attention to him very excited about. More Reconciling Long Term and Short Term Ben: Yeah, and so for the long-term Vision,  the thing that I always worry about in the modern world is that we are so focused on  what can you do in a couple months these little Sprint's that if there's a long-term thing you just wouldn't be able to get there with a bunch of little projects. So I'm really interested in like how you resolve that conflict. Adam: Yeah, well you could say it's one of the biggest Innovations in Innovation, which I know is the area your study medication to get into this iterative mindset this what he called agile whether you call it. Yeah, iterative that the idea of kind of breaking it down into small discrete steps rather than thinking in terms of like I don't know we're going to go to the moon and let's spend the decade doing that. But instead think of and I didn't even see that difference in something like the space program right the way that the modern. Space exploration stuff that's going on is much more in terms of these little ratcheting steps where one thing gets you the next rather than that one big Mega project. It's going to take a really long time the super high risk and super high beta so I in general. I think that's a really good sort of shift that's happened. But yes, it does come at the expense of sometimes there are jumps you can or need to make that are not necessarily smaller steps. And so I certainly don't propose to have the answer to that. But at least for what we're doing the way I think of it is, you know, starting with a pretty Grand Vision or a big Vision or a long time Horizon. If nothing else and trying to force yourself first and foremost into the bigger thinking right? But then going from there to okay, if that's you know, where we want to go. What is the first step in that direction? What is the thing that can give us learning that will help us get there and one of the metaphors I always love to use for I guess research in general or any kind of Discovery oriented process is the other Lewis and Clark expedition, you know, this was commissioned by the Thomas Jefferson was president at the time and it to me was really crazy to read about. Holly you know they hadn't explored the interior of the continent they believe there might still be willing - running around and actually one of the things Thomas Jefferson Wander from the he's like, I really loved a, you know get a while you're out there they just had no idea they knew that the Pacific Ocean was on the other side that had ships go around there. But other than that it was this dark interior to the continent, but they sat out you know that expedition set out with the goal of reaching the Pacific Ocean and find out. What's on the way right and they did they took their best guess of what they might encounter on the way and put together Provisions in the team to try to get there. But then the individual sort of you might wait, you might call the iterative decisions. They need to make along the way to be go up this mountain rage. And we divert this way to be cut across this River. Do we do we follow this for a while do we try to befriend these tribes people who run away etcetera. Those are the sort of the iterative steps for the important thing is keeping in mind that long-term strategic goal. Um and defining that goal in such a way that it doesn't say go west, you know, it's not a set of directions to get there because you can't know that you have to start with here's what our vision is. Let's connect the two coasts of this country and then we're going to take whatever whatever iterative steps seem to be most promising to lead us in that direction. Also realizing that sometimes the most iterative step leads us in a way even away from our goal. So hopefully that's what we're trying to do it in can switch is picking individual projects. We hope carve off a piece of the bigger thing that we think will increase our learning or build our Network or just somehow illuminate some part of the this problem that we want to we want to understand better again, what is the future of you know, productive and creative Computing and then hopefully over time those will add up in the trick is not to get lost for me. I think the trick is not to get too lost in. Detail of the project right? And that's where the Hollywood model is. So important because you got to end the project and step away to truly have perspective on it and to truly return to looking at the bigger thing and that's what you don't get in my experience working in a startup that has operations and customers and revenue that you know goals. He need to hit us according to those things which are absolutely you know, the right way to run a business but then. Keeping that that that bigger picture view and that longer term mindset is very difficult. If not impossible in that setting. So that's our approach. Anyways, see how about in longer term? Loops around Loops: The Explicitly Temporary Nature of the Whole Lab Ben:  and in terms of of your approach and ending things is it true that you're actually going to  at the end of a certain amount of time. You're going to step back and look reevaluate the whole. Is it like you're sort of doing like loops loops around Loops Adam:  indeed? Yes. So individual projects have this sort of you know, we'll end it and and step back and evaluate thing. And then yeah, the whole thing is basically, you know, we have a fixed Grant when that's how it's out and right and it's up to us to deliver invest to investors the learning you might call the intellectual property. We're not patenting things or whatever, but the. See protect the things that offer commercial potential and could potentially be funded as startups. Basically. Yeah, that's you know, that's that's what we'll do. And actually that will happen next year. Wow. And when that does happen will hopefully do you know will do the same process? Like you said that the the bigger loop on the smaller Loop which that we've done on the smaller Loops which is retrospect at the end write down everything we've learned and then we do go ahead and let the team. Part of that may be when you've done put all this hard work and getting a team together, but my experience is that if there's really some great opportunity there. You'll recall us it in some new form. What Comes out of the Lab? Ben:  I can see it's  going multiple ways. Where you. You ended and then you could either say  there's another five-year research thing in this or there's some number of sort of more traditional startups to come out of that to try to capture that value are those sort of the the two options. What what do you see as the possibilities that come out of this? Adam: Yeah, those are those are both pretty key outcomes and they're not mutually exclusive right so it could be that we say, all right, great, you know we generated sort of five interesting startup options one of them. You know an investor decided to pick that up and you know, maybe take a team that is based on some of the people in the lab that worked on that and those folks are going to go and essentially work on commercializing that or making a go to market around that but then some other set of people who were involved in things and want to come back to this. He's promising tracks research and we're going to take another grant that has another time duration, I think. The obviously money is your ultimately all of them in limiting factor it yeah in any organization, but but I like the time boxes. Well, I think we use again we use that for our short-term projects and and some degree. We used it for the lab overall. I think thinking that it's like that Star Trek, you know, what is it or three-year Mission our five-year Mission, whatever it is. It's something about the time box that kind of creates clarity. Yeah, maybe in some is and yeah, you might decide to do another time box another chunk of time. In other chapter actually investors do this as well. If you look at something like the way that Venture struck funds are structured they often have sort of multiple. Entities which are you know, it's fun one fun to fund three. Yeah, right and those different funds can have different kind of buy-ins by different partners. They have different companies in their portfolio, even though there is like a continuous. I don't know if you want to call a brand or culture or whatever the ties them all together and I think that approach of like having these natural chapter breaks time or money based chapter breaks in any work is like a really useful and valuable thing for. Productivity and I don't know making the most of the time. Human Timescales - 4-5 Years Ben:  I completely by that. I have this theory that human lives are kind of divided up in like these roughly five year chunks. We're like that's that's the amount of time that you can do the sort of the exact same thing for the most time and if you if you like if you don't have. You can reevaluate every five years but it's like you look at like school. It's like you really like maybe it's like five years plus or minus like to but beyond that it's really hard to like sustained. Intense and tension on the same thing. So that makes that makes a lot of sense   Adam: agree with that. I would actually throw out 4 years as a number which does I think Max match the school thing it also matches the vesting schedules are usually the original vesting schedule and most startups is a four-year window. And if I'm not mistaken, I think that is the median length of marriages think there's something around. Well, you know, maybe it's something around, you know, there's renewal in our work life is what we're talking about here. But there's also renewal in a personal life, right? And if you're yeah if your employee at a company. Maybe something around for years as a feels like the right Tour of Duty. No not say you can't take on another Tour of Duty and maybe with the new role or different responsibilities, but there's something about that that seems like a natural like you said sustained attention, and I think there's something to goes about as well as inventing. Or Reinventing yourself your own personal identity and maybe not connects to you. Marry. Someone for years goes by you're both new people. Maybe those two people aren't compatible anymore. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that's figure that's reaching a little bit far. I mean the other yeah Investors, Grants, and Structuring Lab Financing to Align Incentives Ben: that makes a lot of sense and you mentioned investors a couple of times but then also that it's a grant so  how did you something something that I'm always interested in is sort of like how to. He's up. So the incentives are all aligned between the people like putting in the money the people doing the work and people setting the direction and so like how did you structure that? How did you think about sort of coming up with that structure? Adam: Yeah, I've used maybe investors and Grant sort of a little Loosely there again, the model we have is a little different. So when I you know went to pitch the private investors on what we were going to do with this, I basically said look. Me and my partner's we had been successful in the past producing commercial Innovations. We want to look now at something that's a little bigger a little longer term and wouldn't necessarily fit as cleanly into some of the existing funding models including things like the way that the academic research is funded and certainly Venture funding and so take a little gamble on us. Give us a pics. Amount of money a very small amount of money by some perspectives to deliver not profits, but rather to deliver again this kind of concept of learning intellectual property in the loose sense not in the legal sense, but in the sense of intellectual Capital, maybe might be another way to put it and more explicitly. Yeah spin out potential right but the but but no no commitment to make any of these things. It's just we've evaluated all of these opportunities. Here's what we think the most promising ones are and that includes both. Let's call it the validated findings. We think there's a promising opportunity here at technology. That's right to you know, serve serve some marketing users well, but also some things that we got negative findings on we said well look we think there's a really interesting Market of users to serve right here the technology that would be needed kind of isn't ready yet and still five years out or maybe the market is actually tough for an early not very good for sort of early adopter type products and so in some way that would be valuable to. There's as well to have this information on why actually is it is not wise to invest in a particular Market a particular product opportunity. So that was that was what we asked for and promised to deliver and obviously we're still in the middle of this experiment so I can't speak to the whether they're happy with the results. But at least that's the that's the deal that we set up.   Tension between Open Knowledge Sharing and Value Capture Ben:  I just I love the idea of investment not. Necessarily with a monetary return and it's like I wish there were more people who would think that way and. In terms  of incentives. There's also always the question about value capture. So you you do a really good job of putting out into the world just like all like the things that you're working on and so it's like you have all those the great articles and like the code. Do you  hold anything back specifically for for investors? So that because I mean it would make sense, right because you need to capture value at some point. So it's like there's there's got to be some Advantage. So like how do you think about that? Adam: Yeah. I don't have a great answer for you on that, you know, certainly again, you know, there's conventional conventional ideas there around yet Trade Secrets or patents or that sort of thing, but I kind of. Personally, I'm a little bit more of a believer in the maybe comes back to that tacit knowledge we talked about earlier, which is you can in a way. I feel like it's almost misleading to think that if you have the entire project is open source that somehow you have everything there is to know I feel like the code is more of an artifact or an output. Yeah of what you learn and the team of people that made that and the knowledge they have in their minds and and again in. To some degree in there. There are sort of hearts and souls. Yeah is actually what you would need to make that thing successful. Right? And I think a lot of Open Source people who work on open source for a living rely on that some degree, which is you can make a project that is useful and works well on its own but the person who made that and has all the knowledge about it. They have a they have a well of. They have a lot of the resources that are really valuable to the project. And so it's worth your while to for example go hire them. And so that's that's the that's the way I think that we think about in The Way We pitched it to investors. If I were to do this again, I might try to look for something a little more concrete than that a little more tangible than that. The other part of it that I think is. Pretty key. Is that the networking? Yeah, and so you could say okay. There's the knowledge of the people who worked on in their heads. It may be that that kind of ties together. But there's the knowledge we transferred directly by like here's a here's a document that tells you everything we learned about this area where we think the opportunities are but then it's also by the way, we had a bunch of people to work on this some of whom are now in some cases where we were pushing the envelope on a particular Niche e sub technology. We end up with people on the team who are in many cases of the world's experts or we're in touch with the few experts in the world on a particular topic and we have act we have that network access. And so if someone wants to go and make a company they have a very easy way to get in touch with those people not the really impossible for someone else to take that. Bundle of information or take even a code based on GitHub and pick through the contributors list try to figure out who worked on it and go contact them. You know, I think that's possible Right, but I think it's quite different. You would be the pretty substantial disadvantage. There's someone that actually had the worm Network and the existing working collaboration. Extending the Ink&Switch Model to Different Domains Ben: Yes, the I like that and in terms of using the model in different places. Have you thought about how well this applies to  other really big themes the things that you're working on our nice because it's primarily software like the capital costs are pretty low. You don't need like a lab or equipment. Do you think that there's a way to get it to work for maybe in biology or other places where  there's higher friction. Adam: Yeah, I think the fact that we are in essentially purely in the realm of the virtual is part of what makes the sort of low cost. By all remote team and not asking people to relocate that's what as part of what makes that possible. We do have some cost. We've certainly purchased it quite a bit of computing Hardware over the course of the of the course of the lab and ship those to whoever needs it. But that said, you know, we can do that. I think this model would best apply to something that was more in the realm of knowledge development and not in the realm of you have to get your hands physically on something. Whether that's a DNA sequencer or a hardware development or something of that nature, but on the other hand as certainly as cameras get a more of the quickest and high-speed internet connections get better and certainly we've learned a lot of little tricks over the time. I think we were talking about the start of the call there about. Our use of document cameras is basically screen screen sharing for tablets doesn't work great because you can't see what the users hands are doing. So we learned pretty quickly that you got to invest in document cameras or something like that in order to be able to kind of effectively demo to your teammates. One of the quick or as a kind of a sidebar but related to that is one of the learnings we had in making the distributed team thing work is you do have to get together in person periodically so we can to support early team Summits got it. Making Watercooler Talk and Serendipity  Work with a Distributed Team Ben:  I was actually literally just thinking about that because one of the things that I always hear about. Great research places like whether it's like Bell Labs or DARPA is sort of like the the water cooler talk or the fact that you can just sort of like walk down the hall and like really casually hop into someone's office. And that's the problem with distributed teams that I haven't seen anybody saw well, so so you just do that by bringing everybody together every once in a while. Do you think that generates enough? Adam: Yeah. I mean the to your right like. That problem is very big for us. And there's there's a number of benefits we get from the distributed team, but there's also a number of problems. We haven't solved and so I'm not sure how this would balance against the sort of the spending the same amount of money on a much shorter term thing where people could be more in person because that water cooler talk you get some of with a slack or whatever but. It's just not the same as being co-located. So yeah, the the one of the mitigating things we have that I think is works pretty well as about about quarterly or so. We got everyone together and it's actually kind of fun because because we don't have to go any place in particular. There's no central office. We try to pick a different city each time someplace that's creative and inspiring we tend to like interesting Bohemian Vibe, you know in some cases urban city Center's been in some cases more historic places or more in nature. Ideally someplace close to International Airport that it wouldn't fly into and for really a fraction. I mean offices are so expensive. Yeah, and so our fraction of the price of maintaining an office. Actually fly everyone to some pretty interesting place once a once a quarter and so for a week, we have like a really intense period where we're all together in the same physical space and we're working together. We're also getting the human bonds more that casual conversation and we tend to use that time for like a lot of design sketching and kind of informal hackathons are also some bigger picture. Let's talk about the some of the longer term things lift our gaze a little bit and that helps a lot. Again, it is not as is demonstrably not as good as being co-located all the time, but it gets you I don't know 30 to 40 percent of the way there for, you know a fraction of the cost. So yeah over the over the longer term again, I don't know how that would Stack Up Against. Collocated team, but that's one good thing to getting product review so far. Where to find out more Ben:  I see that we're coming up on time and I want to be very respectful of your time.  I'm going to make sure people know about the website and your Twitter. Is there anything else any other places online that people should learn more about and can switch to learn more about you and what you're working on. Adam: Ya know the the website and the Twitter is basically what we got right now. We've been really quiet in the beginning here not because you know, I'm a big believer in that, you know that science approach of Open Access and you know, it's about sharing what you've learned so that humanity and can build on each other's learnings that said it, you know, it's a lot of work to to package up your ideas, especially when they're weird and fringy like ours are in a way that's consumable to the outside world. So we're trying to do a lot more of that. All right now and I think you're starting to see that little bit to our to our Twitter account where in including publishing some of our back catalogue of internal memos and sketches and things which again very itchy things you got to be really into whatever the particular thing is to find find interest in our internal memo on something as well as taking more time to put together demo videos and longer articles that try to try to capture some of the things we've learned some of the philosophies that we have some of the technologies that were. So yeah, there's she spots a great Thinking About  Extending The Model Ben: So freaking cool.  the. That I'm doing is just putting together the ideas and  trying to almost make a more generic description of what you're doing so  say like, oh, what would this look like if it goes into biology or it goes into something? What would this look like for nanotech? could you do the distributed team  using University resources? Right? Like could you partner with a whole bunch of universities and  have someone in different places and they just like go in and use the lab when you need to I don't know like that's  one Bay action item based on learning about this is like oh, yeah. I think I think it could work. Adam: That sounds great. Well, if you figure something out, I'd love to hear about it. I will absolutely keep you in the loop. Ben: awesome. Cool. Well, I really appreciate this.  I'm just super excited because these new models and  I think that you're really onto something. so I really appreciate you  bringing me in and going into the nitty gritties. Adam: Well, thanks very much. Like I said, it's still an experiment will we get to see? But I feel like I feel like they're more Innovation models than just kind of start up. Corporate R&D lab and Academia. Yeah, and if you believe like I do that technology has the potential to be an enhancement for Humanity then you know Finding finding new ways to innovate and a new types of problems and you new shapes of problems potentially has a pretty high high leverage impact the world.  

Adam Keith: I think it’s one of those things to where let’s boil it down to the root of this of saying, “Okay, here’s my best pitch for you of why should you plant a food plot,” or you’re weighing that out in your head and you say, “Okay, how much money are you willing to spend? Because to actually have a successful food plot, one that’s beneficial and your work is actually rewarded, it’s going to take this amount of dollars.” And if they’re like, “I don’t know if I have that…if I’ve set aside that much,” well, then we can take what you do have set aside and do something probably just as beneficial. Bruce: And so that… You know, and we’ve been talking about the land management plan. And sometimes the native browse and forbs and everything you have on your property today, enhance it and that will be bettering the food plot. Now don’t yell at me, X, Y, Z seed companies, for saying that, but that’s the truth. Adam: Well, let’s look at it like this, Bruce. When did food plots originate? And maybe it was 30 years ago. Okay, 30 years ago, what were the deer surviving on before that? Well, then let’s go back before we introduced things like alfalfa and soybeans and say, okay, deer were doing just fine before we settled America. I mean they were here, it wasn’t like we introduced them, and then we had to provide food plots so they could survive. They were doing just fine without us. So how do we replicate what was going on during that time frame, and then use food plots to our advantage? So basically for us it’s, okay, if we replicate nature pre-settlement and what was going on before we moved in, if you will, a lot of the things that were there, you look at it, Great Plains comes to mind, there was diversity, it wasn’t just native grass, it was all kinds of wildflowers and forbs. So there was tons of food. We had approximately 75 million buffalo living here in North America, that’s a lot…I mean that’s a lot of forage to have to just feed the buffalo. And then there was an estimated about 15 million elk. And then there was all the whitetail deer. So there was plenty of food available without any food plots, but the problem is now we don’t have that same type of habitat. So replicating that habitat by a lot of prescribed fire, opening up the canopy and getting back to woodlands and savannas to where you have this undergrowth, managed with prescribed fire to where you have food available year-round, and then you can add the food plots on top of that. And for us food plots come in as a hunting destination or a way to pattern deer. So maybe you’re not hunting on the podcast, I think this was the first segment, maybe you’re hunting off of it, but you still have a more consistent pattern of deer going to and from, and a specific area. Bruce: And, you know, all through this whole series I’ve been talking about transition plots, I call them kill plots, because I just want that buck to stop, I want that doe to stop. Adam: That’s right. Bruce: And between bedding and where they’re going to feed I want them just to stop. And they do that anyway. If you… Here’s one thing I would challenge everybody to do this year. Go out to your favorite place, play the wind, just as if you’re going to hunt. Leave your bow at home, take your camera. And just watch how deer move through the woods. You’re not going to kill them, you’re just going to sit there and watch. And just watch how they move. Because, unless chased, you know, they don’t gallop or run through the woods, they just kind of mosey and they slip their toe underneath the leave and they do this and they much here and have a munch here. And that’s what they do. And so many times we don’t get that. And so 365, you know, food plots, my idea of small food plots is simply you’re going to get them to come along their trail in a …

Well, the marketing people. I was stumbling over my words, but, you know, it’s the greatest thing in the world and we all fall for marketing. You know, a huge buck, gorgeous green field, and you got too have X. If you have X in this bottle, if you put this on your thing, or you plant with Y, you’re going to have…you know, you’re going to have Booners, you know, out the network. I’ll guarantee you if there’s no sperm, there’s no studs in the forest that have 180-class genes, you ain’t going to have it. Adam: That’s right. That’s right. And, you know, I’ll add to that. You got to give them what they want, but you also got to give them what they need, and then you got to give them what you can provide them. I mean if they need carbs and you don’t have any open ground, as far as you can’t give them corn or you can’t give them soybean. So we’ll digest this, I guess, the best we can from you got to give them what they want and you got to give them what they need. And, as we talked pre-recording, I think one of the biggest things we see with our Land & Legacy consulting business is looking at something and going, “Okay”… When we look at food plots, 9 times out of 10 we’re planting food plots because we want to have more hunting success. We want to be able to at least attract more deer on the property. Maybe we’re not hunting over it, but we know that there’s more deer in the area because that food plot is there. 9 times out of 10 that’s why we’re planting food plots, is just so we can increase our hunting success. Now when it comes to “give them what they want,” let’s look at it and say, “Okay, what do they want? What do they need?” And when we look at what’s in the neighborhood, that’s one of the biggest things. I hunt…one of the properties I hunt is a working cattle farm and there is alfalfa fields, I don’t know how many acres. Lots and lots and lots and lots of acres devoted to alfalfa because the farmer bales it for hay. So it’s food for the cows, but it’s also a great lagoon so it’s great forage for the deer. But if I was to plant a clover food plant, which is right there providing the same thing, it’s providing protein, I’m not going to have very good success hunting that because they have 200-plus acres of alfalfa that they can go eat on. And so coming in that little clover patch isn’t doing them any good. So look at what’s lacking in the neighborhood as far as what the deer need, and then try to fill that void. Don’t look at it as, “Well, this is just what I’m going to plant and let’s hope that it’s fantastic,” and expect to see the same food plot that you see on the bag and the same buck standing in it that you see on the bag. Bruce: Because that just doesn’t work. And, as we said before… It might work, I better put a comment in there. Adam: It might work. Bruce: It might work, it might work. That was my disclaimer, it might work. But, you know, you think, about things and, you know, every…you know, July comes and everything has grown and Deer are out there, their coats are slick and they’re looking good, and the fawns are romping and stomping, and some bucks are starting to, you know, grow out. And you’re getting some, you know, what’s coming along and you start dreaming about your hit list and August comes, and then all of a sudden something changes. And in your opinion what changes? It’s at that magic time all of a sudden, “Where did all the deer go?,” sort of kind of. Adam: Well, I think I know where you’re going with this because we talked about it a little bit, but for me in the Ozark Mountains of Southern Missouri, notorious…I mean just as the sun comes up every morning, the same thing happens almost every single year. Every single year, I guess I should say and clarify that. But every single year, early fall

HOW OFTEN DO YOU GET A WELL DONE? Ever got a compliment or an encouragement and felt a little buzz from it? Maybe we ache for it more than we realise. Adam shares on Jesus leaving heaven being just as much a sign of love as His death was, and how we can get the ultimate 'well done'.

Debbi Mack interviews crime fiction author Adam Maxwell. The transcript is below, if you'd like to read it. Or download the PDF copy and read it later. Debbi: Hi everyone. This is the Crime Cafe. Your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host, Debbi Mack. Before we get started and I introduce my guest, let me remind you that the Crime Cafe Nine Book Set and Crime Cafe Short Story Anthology are on sale at my website, and all major retailers; Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, you name it, they're there. Just go to debbimack.com and click on “Crime Cafe” to find the buy links. You can also subscribe to the podcast there. Plus, I'm going to be making a big announcement. It's coming up soon, so stay tuned for the big announcement about the show. I guess what I've done is just made a big announcement about the big announcement! So, if that's not from a Monty Python skit, I don't know what is! And on that note, I'd like to introduce my guest, the very funny crime author, Adam Maxwell. It's so great to have you here, Adam. Thanks for coming on. Adam: Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Debbi: Awesome! So, your books seem to run the gamut from children's to adult mystery and caper. How would you describe yourself as an author in one sentence? Adam: Eclectic! Debbi: Eclectic…fair description. Adam: Constructed perhaps [laughs]. Debbi: [laughs] Adam: I think there's definitely two sides. The main two sides would be the crime writing, which it goes from crime to detective and a lot of little bits and bobs. Writing for kids was kind of an accident because I have a daughter and when she was maybe about 5 years old, I wasn't entirely satisfied with the sort of books that were available and thought, well I can do better than that. And I've ended up writing five kids novels. Four have been published and one, Pirates vs. Ninjas, which is going to come out early next year. But, that's kind of … it's a destruction almost. It's fabulous. It's wonderful to do, but it's not really where my heart is. It was rather where my heart for my daughter is and being terribly vain I obviously published them as well [laughs]. But, yeah the majority of the work I'm doing, at the moment I've got sort of the next two or three books in the series, the crime series I'm working on at the moment. That's everything. I'm not sure. My daughter is getting to be kind of big, where she's starting to read the Percy Jackson's and The Hunger Games and I'm not sure…I'm not interested in writing that sort of thing so I think that's probably it for the kids books for me. It will just be crime from now on, which I'm sure anybody who's watching will be glad to hear [laughs]. Debbi: [laughs] It sounds like your writing career sort of started with your daughter. Adam: Yeah, I mean certainly I was doing a lot of stuff before then that was much, much shorter but the crossover between the crime and the longer works started to come with the kids' books and then sort of now everything's too long, so everything is novel length. You can't have short ideas anymore because that's when they turn into these enormously long plot ideas that you have. Debbi: Well, I think you could probably write short stories and novellas? Adam: Well, the next one that I've got coming out, it did turn into a novella, but it almost ended up as a novel. I think writing sort of heist-caper style plots; the level of complexity in there, it lends itself really well to having much longer, convoluted, to-and-fro sort of plots. Yeah, that's how my brain works I suppose, so [laughs]. Debbi: [laughs] Well, I like it. I'm reading Cat Chaser and it makes me laugh out loud at points. The way your protagonist just stops when he falls asleep. I'm like, oh my god. What inspired you to write a mystery about a detective with narcolepsy? Adam: [laughs] Well I think…that was one that I had for a long time.

Inform Fitness Founder, Adam Zickerman, welcomes Clinical Psychologist and InForm Fitness Strength Training Instructor, Joshua Cagney to discuss the varied psychological and emotional aspects encountered by both clients and trainers and how high-intensity strength training can be a cathartic experience.We want to reward you for listening to the InForm Fitness Podcast by offering a free training session at an InForm Fitness location nearest you plus an opportunity to qualify for an InForm Fitness Prize Pack.Earn one FREE SESSION when you leave a review for InForm Fitness in iTunes, Yelp, Google+, Facebook,  & Amazon! Simply write a review and send a screenshot to podcast@informfitness.com - that's it!  For each review you leave, you will receive and entry for the GRAND PRIZE!One lucky listener will receive a personally autographed copy of Adam Zickerman's book,  Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution. That listener will also get decked out in InForm Fitness apparel including an InForm Fitness T-shirt, hat, and a hoody jacket. And we'll top off the prize pack with an Amazon Echo! Click here to see the Amazon Echo in action:http://bit.ly/2InFormFItnessGrandPrizeContest ends May 31st, 2017.  Listen for more details!To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.comIf you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com. Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. To purchase Adam's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTenIf you would like to produce a podcast of your own just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards at tim@InBoundPodcasting.com28 The Psychology of the Trainer/Client RelationshipJosh: The truth is that if we're doing our jobs effectively as instructors, that's entirely placing the clients' needs ahead of our own. We each have an innate need to want to sympathize, to want to offer our sympathies whenever someone suffers a loss or a stressful period of time emotionally, but the longterm consequence of that is we blur those lines. The goal is making sure that you know the client well enough to understand what is going to be most conducive to getting her through a really productive workout. That's when an instructor is really showing his or her metal, when they're able to put the clients' needs ahead of their own.Tim: Hey InForm Nation, can you believe it? We are already at episode 28 of the InForm Fitness Podcast: Twenty Minutes with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman and friends. I'm Tim Edwards with the InBound Podcasting Network and I'm a client of InForm Fitness, and in just a moment, we'll hear from the founder of InForm Fitness, Adam Zickerman. Sheila Melody, the co-owner of the Toluca Lake location is back with us, and still on vacation is Mike Rogers. Looking forward to having Mike back with us next week, as we interview one of his clients from the Manhattan location, Gretchen Rubin. Next week's episode is bound to be one of our most popular episodes, and I'll explain that at the end of this one. Also at the end of the show, I will remind you of our May 2017, exclusively for InForm Nation. We have a really cool prize pack, valued at over two hundred bucks, but let's not get ahead of yourselves. Remember that voice you heard at the top of the show? That was InForm Fitness trainer/instructor, Joshua Cagney from the Restin, Virginia location. Joshua also happens to be a clinical psychologist, which is why Adam invited him to join us here on The Psychology of the Trainer/Client Relationship. Sometimes after a period of time, those who are being trained become so comfortable with their trainers, they might start to share some intimate details of their life, and the trainer, in essence, becomes their therapist. So where do we draw the line? Can this type of relationship actually help, or hurt the progress of your strength training? Let's join the conversation with Joshua Cagney, Adam Zickerman, Sheila Melody, and myself, with The Psychology of the Trainer/Client Relationship.Adam: So first of all, I've had this conversation with Josh in person, a resident clinical psychologist/exercise instructor. I was talking about — I was there giving a certification course, and many times when I'm talking with trainers, we talk about how to motivate, how to inspire, how to keep people on track. How to make them feel that, I know this is hard but you can do it anyway and stick with it. During that conversation, we were talking about the relationships that develop over time and that there is a definitely a psychology involved in maintaining these relationships and motivating your client. Then lines start getting blurred, and I hear very often, it's kind of a pet peeve of mind, and maybe it's a pet peeve of mine because I've been doing this for twenty years now and I've seen the damage, I guess. The pet peeve is when I hear that you're more like my therapist, the client would say. I come here and it's like a therapy session, or the trainer would say, I feel like I'm a therapist sometimes or I act like a therapist. People come to me, they talk about their problems, they lay it all on me, they can tell me things that they can't tell anybody else, and I get all that, but when I hear that, the hair on the back of my neck goes up a little bit. Maybe because it's my twenty years experience, and the reason that the hair goes up on my neck is just because there's a psychology involved in motivating and working with your clients, doesn't mean that we're psychologists, and that's when Josh said, unless you are a psychologist. I realized that Josh is not only an exercise instructor, which was what I was talking to him as, but I then realized that he's actually a clinical psychologist. So I guess that doesn't apply to him, he is a psychologist when he's dealing with psychology of training clients, and we have to be careful, both as clients and trainer, to make sure we're not blurring those lines, and the instructor doesn't get all full of himself or herself, thinking that they can actually solve these people's problems. I think that the client themselves needs to know what their boundaries are as well, and as much as you connect with your trainer, as much as you appreciate your trainer, as much as this trainer builds you up, not just physically but mentally, as much as all of that happens, they're not their therapist. The reason this is important to me and the reason the hair goes up on the back of my neck is because we end up, both client and instructor, we end up not doing our jobs. What we find happens during the exercise session is a lot of chit-chat going on, there's a lot of wasted time, and the workout suffered. It's a twenty-minute workout, and there's no way you can be a therapist and a trainer in twenty minutes. So then you lose a client, and this is where my twenty years experience comes in. What ends up happening is one day, the client wakes up and says, what the hell am I going there for. I'm getting bored, I'm not feeling the results, I'm feeling a plateau. It's becoming a chore to go there. Maybe the time before that, the quote unquote therapist trainer said something they didn't like, the way therapists sometimes do, and then you've got your patient not wanting to come back anymore, when they weren't your patient in the first place. They were your client, the person you were supposed to train, and now that they don't like you as their therapist anymore, they don't want to come back. So it's a slippery slope, and if you've been a trainer long enough, you've been there. If you're listening to this and you're not a trainer but you're a client of a trainer, and if you've been doing this for any amount of time, you might also relate to this trap that we tend to fall into. If you're listening to this and you've never hired a trainer, when you do, or if you do, this is an important thing to keep in mind. So Joshua, being both an instructor and a clinical psychologist, am I making sense? Am I right?Josh: I think you are absolutely right. From a clinical perspective, one of the things that's important for a therapist to understand is that we each specialize in something that's unique. So if I specialize in trauma based therapy, it does not mean that I'm a good marriage counselor, doesn't make me a good family counselor, and the inverse is true. So when we look at what the specific goal is for any kind of relationship that we have with a client, we need to keep that goal premiere in mind when we develop that relationship. There's blurred lines that come to play when, based on vulnerability and the relationship that you've built, and this is something that you commonly see in a clinical environment when you're dealing with long-term therapy, where clients will be opening themselves up in ways that make them vulnerable, exposed, and it's very easy to misassociate or misassign feelings that a client will have towards a therapist based on that vulnerability. Being in the studio isn't a whole lot different in that regard. You're in physically compromising positions, you're in incredibly intense situations under a lot of physical and emotional stress, so you feel incredibly vulnerable for those twenty, thirty minutes at a time. So the net result is, people tend to feel, when they're working out, open and extremely emotional and extremely anxious and stressed at different points, and the one person that they have contact with is their strength trainer, their instructor. So it's easy for those lines to get very blurry and it's absolutely critical for the strength training instructor to be in a position where they have clear boundaries and clear guidelines about what's appropriate, what's not, and leading that relationship. I think that you're actually really on target, I think that's pretty insightful. Whether it's twenty years of experience or whether it's something you're able to impart to people, it's important.Tim: Speaking from the client's perspective, as a client of InForm Fitness, as you mentioned Josh, it's a very intimate relationship and connection with that trainer. As you said, we're vulnerable, we're hitting muscle failure, but also the environment at InForm Fitness is conducive to building that relationship with your trainer because it's not a crowded gym. It's a very private, one-on-one situation so I guess it's incumbent on the trainer to manage where those lines are, where that blurred line stops.Josh: It is important, and those boundaries again, they're not always very clear, and there are certainly things that are critical for the client and the trainer to both bare in mind. Ultimately that is what is contributory and what is conducive to achieving the goal that my client is here for in the first place. If you have a client who walks in after having been thrown out by their spouse the night before, they're not going to be in a position, chances are, to exercise. So that may be an appropriate time to say, you're just not ready for today, and that's alright. Take a day, take as much time as you need to be able to put yourself in a position where you're ready to focus, but that's part of the boundary. Not saying, please talk to me about what it is that is going on and how can I help, but instead, staying focused on the goal and supporting the client back to what the real mission is.Sheila: Yes, people come in and they may have gone through something or they may have just received a very disturbing email or phone call or something like that, but they want to continue on their schedule because it helps them to stay feeling normal. I have had people come in and they're not revealing to me what happened, but then in the middle of the workout, you're in that really intense position, and after a couple times of exerting that, they can't hold it in anymore and they start crying because they cannot hold that emotion in anymore, because you're letting all of that energy go.Adam: This workout definitely brings out, for me and I've seen it with others, it definitely brings out your emotions. It's an emotional experience with such intensity, and if you have something going on in your life like you just mentioned Sheila, that's going to pull right on out.Sheila: We do need to be prepared to deal with situations like that, and understanding the difference between being a therapist and just being encouraging or being able to tell the difference of this person shouldn't be working out right now. Sometimes just quietly allowing them to move to the next exercise and get through it, we've had people say, thank you so much. For instance, after the last election, it was very emotional for a lot of people, and some people came in the day after. Especially in L.A, and it was like, we just took people through. They were all saying thank you, thank you for helping me to do something good for myself even though I'm really upset right now, but maybe because in L.A, everybody already has a therapist. Josh: That's different than Washington D.C. where everybody needs a therapist.Tim: For somebody who has been working out at InForm Fitness for quite some time, say with one trainer in particular. You can't help but have that relationship build. You're seeing that person every single week, you're vulnerable with them. There is a little bit of time between some of the machines and the exercises, and a good trainer, I believe, will find their client's interests and use those interests to motivate them through those exercises, so there's a connection that's made there. As in any relationship, it grows, there's ebb and flow, but do you think after a certain period of time, where it gets too comfortable, maybe it's okay or you should shift to a different trainer to kind of mix it up a little bit or start over again? What do you think about that?Josh: I think that's a healthy question to ask, but I think there is no one size fits all answer. This is really entirely dependent upon what the client is like, what their disposition is, what their needs and goals are, and then what the trainer is able to give them. So when we're talking about someone who is developing a relationship and a degree of trust, that's not really something that is easily transferable to another trainer, because we personalize that. So outside of that, when you're looking for something that's ultimately going to be most enhancing component of a relationship for a specific client, maybe it is breaking away from that personal relationship and creating something that's much more concrete and core.Adam: When you're a sole practitioner and you don't work for a company like InForm Fitness and you're the trainer, it's hard to give them to somebody else, one of your colleagues, and kind of swap out. So that's not even always an option.Josh: Particularly if your income is based on client retention.Adam: That's what you mentioned earlier before, Josh, the mindfulness of knowing when to speak, when not to speak. Knowing what to say, what not to say. They're coming in in a very emotional state. It reminded me of a client that I have whose sister passed away, and she's a client for a year. When I first met her, her dog had passed away, and I remembered how as soon as it brought it up with her, how are you doing with the dog, she'd get all teary eyed and the workout kind of suffered. Now her sister passed away about a year later, and I knew better this time. So it was interesting how I didn't say anything to her. Now here's somebody whose sister died, she comes to her workout, and I don't even give her a hug like hey, sorry, because I just know how that sets her off. It might have seemed insensitive but I think she really appreciates it because she comes in, we go in there, we work out. I don't say much, and she leaves and every once in a while, we'll talk after the workout, and I'll say next week, we'll talk about the future of her plans and stuff like that because we are friendly, and she says I'm not quite ready for this or that, she'll say. I've had a tough year. She knows I know what she's talking about, yet I've never even sent her a condolence. I know when I see it in her eyes, she looks at me when we talk about these things, that she appreciates the fact that I'm not talking about it. Sheila: I know I can be like that.Adam: This is one of those cases where you just don't bring it up. She knows you know, she knows you care, and because you care, she knows this is why you're acting this way.Tim: Well that's because of the relationship that you've build with her through the last year or so, but there might be some others that think how insensitive for them to act as though nothing has happened.Adam: Including me. I'm listening to this conversation with us right now, and I'm finally — this is like therapy for me, because I'm realizing I'm even judging myself. Like I can't believe I didn't say anything, but I just didn't feel right to say something, I don't know. Maybe it's just my own discomfort that I didn't say anything and my own avoidance. So if you're listening to this and you just listen to this podcast because you want to learn about techniques of training and health, and how exercise is related to that, so why this conversation? How is this going to help me, you might ask yourself, if I'm not a trainer or I don't have a trainer. At first, I think Josh hit on something, and that is knowing whether you should work out or not. We have somebody come in here after some kind of bad news or tragedy, and it might be too soon. I know they want to keep their schedule, I know they want to keep their routine, maybe but maybe not, you have to make that judgment as a trainer, to say to somebody, maybe today is not the day. Let's sit down, let's have a cup of coffee, no charge, let's just sit down and talk for a second and I'll see you next week. Other times, you might say to yourself as an instructor who is confronted with this particular person, say you know what, let's go in there, let's workout, let's not talk, let's just get this thing over with and do it. Let's just focus on the workout, that'd be the best thing for you. Let's face it, this is meditation. A high-intensity workout done properly — I had one client who I loved to death, he's definitely somebody I admire and has influenced me in a lot of ways. Very successful business man, has a great mental fortitude, discipline, and he knows himself, a guy I admire, and I remember him saying to me, I love this workout because it's the only time in my week that I'm concentrating on just one thing for twenty minutes, it's amazing. It's freeing for him, and I was like wow! Here's a guy who is very disciplined in his life always. He always has his stuff together, and he's saying that this is the thing that he has that keeps him totally focused on one thing and one thing only. So coming from him, that was like a big statement. So I get sometimes you might want to just do that with somebody who has all this stuff going on. I remember during a financial crisis, especially in Manhattan, I had guys that worked for [Inaudible: 00:18:53], guys that worked for Bear Sterns, coming in and I'm thinking these guys are going to cancel left and right, and gals for that matter, and they weren't. Matter of fact, they looked crappy, they looked beat up, but they came in and said, thank god I have this.Sheila: I also think it's very important to maintain — to remember that it's good to make people laugh and to feel like they're having a good time. That's how we kind of — we're like a family environment in Toluca Lake, and make people have a good time because I've recently heard, even in that Secret Life of Fat book and in some things that Gretchen Rubin's podcast and things they've done, studies that they've done about people who watch a funny movie or laugh about something, and they actually become stronger. They can maintain a little longer, so I think it's important to keep that mood fun and happy, and that's kind of what we try to do, and then the clients are competing with each other and things like that. So we try to keep that environment like a fun place so that they want to come in and they know they'll be uplifted.Adam: Good point. Levity in the face of a very intense workout can be very helpful, just not while they're in the middle of a set.Tim: Agreed. When I'm in failure, I do not need to laugh.Adam: I'm guilty of that. I think we might all be guilty of that. I am so guilty of like saying something to a client when in the middle of a set, it cracks them up and they laugh and I'm like, why did I just say that, that was the dumbest thing I just did.Tim: Agreed though. As a client coming in, I love the levity, I love the family atmosphere, that can only be achieved through connection. That's one of the reasons that I like to keep coming back, is because of that connection, those friends, that community that you instill over there at Toluca Lake and I'm sure at all of the other locations as well.Adam: Well it's important, but it's a bit of irony because it is a very intense, serious workout. Twenty minutes in and out, we're not wasting your time. It's not necessarily a coddling thing, but at the same time, we should all be excited that — first of all, as instructors we're doing incredible work and for me, it's very fulfilling to do this kind of work, very rewarding, but also it's fun. In a way, even though it's a serious workout, we're rejoicing in this fact, this idea, that we're getting incredibly strong and healthy from a twenty-minute thing. Whether it's InForm Fitness or any of the other great practitioners out there who are understanding brief intense workouts are where it's at. There is joy in that, that there is rejoicing, there is fun. We have lightening in a bottle and I almost feel like to a lot of people, it's still a secret in a way and I don't want to it to be this way, I want the whole mainstream to be understanding. In the mean time, I feel like I'm in an exclusive club, that we know something that nobody else does, but there's too much at stake to keep this a secret. So many people are not working out at all because they think they have to do everything. There's people working out too much, and listening to your advice that intensity at all costs and more is better and you got all those problems. So not only are we helping one person at a time, but wouldn't it be unbelievable if all of a sudden, as a society, the paradigm shift is what we're doing and everyone understands less is more? That would be fantastic. For the person who is listening to this that doesn't have a trainer, who is not a trainer, your emotions are important. Your emotions when you go into a workout are really important and it's okay to miss a workout if you're just not mentally up for it, that's okay. It's a once or a twice a week thing anyways, so it's not like you're not going to lose all your gain so to speak if you miss your Monday workout. As a matter of a fact, if you're an emotional wreck and you try to do it, you might lose focus, you might get hurt because you don't have the focus. It'll be a sub-par workout, it's just not something that you necessarily have to do just because it's your day and you want to keep your routine, and you don't want to think about it.Tim: So how much of this do you bring into your training when people are being certified, this component of managing the relationship.Adam: I end up talking about this stuff a lot, sometimes to the detriment of what it needs to be taught also. Sometimes two days of the workout will go by and I'll find that we talked a lot about these types of things, and then I realize oh darn, I didn't go over glycolysis with you guys did I?Sheila: One of the number one things you tell us —Adam: And that's on the test, so you need to know glycolysis here.Sheila: One of the number one things you tell us and teach us is to connect with that client. We have to connect with the client in order to understand what their needs are and to be able to design the workout for them, to make it work for them.Tim: The client, I can just speak for myself, we don't want a robotic experience so again, that's where the lines come in, the blurred lines. How close are the InForm Fitness trainers supposed to get to the clients? Would you encourage outside activities between the trainer and the client, is that something that shouldn't be approached, or is there a definite yes or no answer to something like that?Josh: I think honestly that one of the most critical things that we have to embrace at InForm Fitness, and I think this is more true than it is for conventional exercise personal trainers, is that I work with every client to teach them about mindfulness and self-awareness. This isn't just about a philosophical abstract idea of mindfulness, it is about being conscious of what is going on so that your mind controls the pattern of thought, throughout a stressful situation. So that there is judgment removed from what's going on associated with pain or discomfort, and instead, the mind is able to be focused purely on breathing. Focused on what muscles are being used, focused on the position of the shoulders relative to the hips. The goal ultimately is to create maximized performance. There's just a tremendous amount of research that's been done in the last 30 years or so about mindfulness training for top performance and top athletes. The relationship between the head and the body is overwhelming. That's something that I think we commonly understand to be true, but the mental gain, the metal component, the mental skill set of what we're trying to help InForm Fitness clients achieve is the level of awareness of what their body is doing, and a level of calm, devoid of anxiety, when they start to feel the anxiety build. When they start to feel the tension to build in their body, to be calm in the moment, to focus on letting go of the results and instead, let the results be what they are, and instead just be calm and focused on breathing, presence, and that's about it. So outside of that, I would suggest that the relationship that we build and the sort of contact that we build with our clients as Adam talks about is something that is being very conscious of the fact that we are instructors. I sort of pull back a bit when somebody refers back to me as a trainer. I'm not training anyone, I'm instructing someone on how to be calm in a time of high stress and tension. Outside of that piece, the physical benefits follow, but the mental piece has to be there at least at a basic level in order for them to build to a point, because without that, intensity can't come. In every consultation, I encourage clients to follow what I have found, and that is, this is a purely meditative and monastic time. You're in a very intimate environment where it's very calm and very peaceful, so to connect yourself with the environment such that you are focused entirely on just a handful of things, the phone, the iPad, the computer, the children, the family, the job, the dead car, all the things that are bothering us emotionally when we walk into the door, they stay at the door of the studio. They do not come in, they're not allowed. Everything in the studio is purely the relationship between the instructor and the client, and what the client is focused on doing at any given exercise.Adam: The idea of staying focused, the idea of working out when the conditions are good. Don't use the excuse not to work out every time you have a little bit of strife, then you can very easily say, I'm not in the mood today and Adam said it's okay if you're not in the mood, if you're emotionally — and then use it as an excuse not to work out. Obviously,  sometimes you have to kick yourself in the pants and pull yourself from the bootstraps and say Adam, go work out. Right now. Do it, and focus, and try to be meditative. Try to block out all of that stuff, which is exactly what meditation is supposed to be also. You're focusing on one thing, and understanding that while you're working out or while you're meditating, things break through that you don't want to have break through. Acknowledge it, move on, and keep going. Bring it back, bring it back to what you're there for. Sometimes, as a trainer, we have to understand that the best thing we can do is get out of our client's way and I think sometimes we are too empathetic. We try to be more empathetic, and we end up not giving them what they need which is a really good, kick butt workout that doesn't allow all these distractions to come in, and helping them to really focus.Josh: Adam, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think what we're really looking at when we look at the example you spoke about earlier with the client who had suffered a death in the family, where you were judging yourself by not being more empathetic, not offering your sympathies for the loss. The truth is that if we're doing our jobs effectively as instructors, that's entirely placing the client's needs ahead of our own. We each have an innate need to want to sympathize, to want to offer our sympathies whenever someone suffers a loss or a stressful period of time emotionally, but the long term consequence of that is we blur those lines. When those lines and those boundaries stay clear is when I'm placing the client's needs ahead of my own, as you did by recognizing that your client is going to most benefit from not talking about something, that she talks about probably the other twenty-three and a half hours out of the day.Adam: My wife has to know this. I have to put somebody else's needs ahead of mine.Josh: The goal is making sure that you know the client well enough to understand what is going to be most conducive to getting her through a really productive workout. That's when an instructor is really showing his or her metal, when they're able to put the clients' needs ahead of their own.Sheila: And luckily, our workout is only the twenty minutes or the thirty minutes, so you can completely focus, you don't have to think about — I have to go in there for an hour and not think about this or not think about that email, phone call, or terrible thing that just happened. So that's what's so great about our workout for anybody who is listening and want to give it a try. It's just as effective and yes, it's a very cathartic thing to just say okay, for the next twenty minutes, I'm just going to focus on me.Josh: The truth is that when we talk about — rest is a good segway — when you talk to clients that you only have to work out once or twice a week, I actually suggest to clients that you may only work out once or twice a week. It's not that you don't have to do it once a week, you may not do it more than once or twice a week. So then when they walk in with any kind of emotional stress or whatever it is that's bothering them when they walk in the door, I tell them you may not bring it in here with you. This is your opportunity to not think about it, I am absolutely demanding of you that you leave this at the door. You can pick it up on the way back out, but for the thirty minutes that you're here, you're focused solely on what it is that we're doing together.Adam: Question that comes up very often with me and clients of ours. When we talk about how you shouldn't be working out so often, like once or twice a week, and each workout is twenty or thirty minutes. How do you respond to the client that says, but I need exercise for stress relief and I'm afraid once a week for that purpose is not enough. How do you respond to that saying, I want to come three, four times a week but you're telling me not to. Part of it for me anyway, they'll say, I need more exercise for stress relief. You're telling me that I shouldn't do anything else, and I can't come here more than once and it's only twenty minutes. I don't know if this is for me.Josh: I think a that's healthy question to ask, but I think that the simple answer is something that we preach very heavily at InForm Fitness and that is creating a very clear line between constitutes exercise versus what constitutes recreation. With every client, I encourage them to walk, run, bike, swim, whatever it is that they enjoy doing that provides them some physical benefits, but that's not the primary purpose behind why they do it in the first place. People who run regularly, at some point, they cease to do it purely for the physical benefits, they do it for the endorphin rush, they do it for the stress management, they do it because they disconnect from the world around them. That's good stress management, so stress management from the physical manifestations, how it builds up our blood pressure, how it builds up muscle tension. Those are all things that we can address concretely here at InForm Fitness, but recreationally, those are the things I encourage clients to deal with. If they really want to do some good stress management techniques, get outside. Go for a walk, take your dog out, take your kids out to a park. Do something that is going to provide stress management and be recreational in the process, that's good mental health.Adam: Josh, do you have trouble separating the different hats you wear? Do you find yourself acting like a psychologist with your clients from time to time, do you catch yourself?Josh: Well yes, but having said that, I think it's more of an asset for me in the long run, simply because I'm relying on my clinical expertise and education to be able to keep clients focused on what it is that I want them to do. I let my expertise and my experience influence the way that I navigate a relationship with a client, but I never sit down and say, step into my office and tell me about your mother. That's not what we're trying to do here, but I think that the point simply is in any environment, when you're working as a therapist or as an instructor, the goal is going to be to keep the client focused on the specific set of goals. In the studio with InForm Fitness, that specific set of goals is entirely about getting the absolute best performance that I can get out of the client for a thirty minute stretch at a time, so that they're deeply fatiguing the muscles and achieving a level of intensity that is appropriate for what it is that I'm asking them to do. That environment is totally different in a correctional setting or in a therapist's office or something like that, but ultimately the drive to achieving those goals, whatever those goals may be, is the same.Adam: Like I've always said, there's definitely a technology involved in training people. Like Sheila pointed out, it's so important as an instructor to make that connection. I know plenty of instructors that are technically very good, they can put somebody through an incredible workout, but the experience overall for the client is left flat. They don't feel a connection to the person that may just seem like they're just dialing it in. As good as they are. So you can be the greatest technical instructor in the world, if you're not making that connection, if you're not figuring out how to motivate, to inspire this person to do what is arguably a very, very hard thing to do, even for just twenty minutes, you're not going to succeed. You're not going to be able to really help these people because they're not going to stick with it, they're not going to want to see you. So there's definitely that psychology that's really important, so I don't want people to misunderstand that psychology isn't involved in being a good instructor. Knowing people listening, being a good listener and hearing what they're saying, but also knowing what not to say sometimes is also very important, and just to be a listener. Not to be so full of yourself, and think that you're going to be able to solve all of their problems. The best thing you can do for them, the best thing that I think I can do for them in times is like that is to really, even more so, double down on the quality of the workout at that moment, and even pull back more from a friend position. Almost like a tough love type of thing saying hey, let's go there. This is for you right now, let's just go in there and do it. Even if you're training yourself to maybe have that same attitude sometimes and let it go. When you sit down at that machine or you pick up that barbell, take a deep breath, visualize, let it go, and do the job, be in the moment and do the job.Tim: Many thanks to InForm Fitness trainer and clinical psychologist Joshua Cagney for joining us here on the InForm Fitness podcast. Hey, if you're in or around the Washington D.C. area and would like to have Joshua as your high-intensity strength trainer, head on over to informfitness.com, click on the Restin, Virginia location, and request Josh. You'll also find six other InForm Fitness locations across the country, and you'll see Adam's blog, InForm Fitness Videos, and every single episode of the InForm podcast there at informfitness.com. Okay, next week: author, award-winning podcaster, and happiness expert, Gretchen Rubin joins us here on the show. Gretchen has a new book coming out titled The Four Tendencies: Learn How to Understand Yourself Better, and Also How Influence Others More Effectively. Utilizing the Four Tendencies framework as mentioned in Gretchen's book, we'll discuss how those tendencies might affect how you approach your workout, and why exercise is an important component to happiness. And one last thing before I let you go. Remember, here in May 2017, we are giving away a personally autographed copy of Adam's book, Power of Ten: The Once a Week Fitness Revolution, InForm Fitness apparel in the form of a hat, T-Shirt, and a hoodie jacket, and a device to listen to all the InForm Fitness podcasts, Amazon books, Audiobooks and more, using the Alexa voice service. I'm talking about the Amazon Echo, and if you haven't seen the Amazon Echo yet, check out the link in the show notes for a full description and even videos explaining what it does and how it works. This is a really cool prize pack, worth over two hundred bucks. Okay, so what do you have to do? Step one, leave InForm Fitness a review here in iTunes or on Facebook, Google Plus, Yelp, and even Amazon. If you do, you'll receive a free training session at an InForm Fitness location nearest you. Step two, take a screenshot and email your review to podcast@informfitness.com. That will be your entry into the grand prize drawing for the all the items I just mentioned, so here are the rules. You can only receive one free training session for your review, however, you can get an entry into the grand prize drawing for each review that you submit, thereby dramatically increasing your chances to win. For instance, if you leave us a review here in iTunes and then one in Yelp and Facebook, you only get one free training session, but three free entires into the grand prize, but you better get on it. You must emails to us by 11:59PM Eastern Time on Wednesday, May 31st to qualify for the free session and the grand prize. The winner will be announced on our Monday, June 5th episode here on the InForm Fitness podcast. So good luck, and thanks again for joining us. For Sheila Melody, Mike Rogers, and Adam Zickerman of InForm Fitness, I'm Tim Edwards with the InBound Podcasting Network.

Adam Zickerman discusses his 90-day journey of religiously dedicating himself to following a ketogenic diet here in Episode 25 of the InForm Fitness Podcast.  Adam reveals the challenges of sticking to the ketogenic diet along with some misconceptions and the dramatic results.Here is a link to the website Adam mentions in this episode:  http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i Don't forget Adam's Zickerman's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution.  You can buy it in Amazon by  clicking here: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTenTo find an Inform Fitness location nearest you to give this workout a try, please visit www.InformFitness.com.  At the time of this recording we have locations in Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg and Reston.If you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com. Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. For information regarding the production of your own podcast just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards at tim@InBoundPodcasting.comThe transcript to the entire episode is below: Adam: You know when you're wearing clothes, my lean muscular build, it's hard to know that I was getting a little bit of a spare tire underneath them, but I was getting a little bit of a spare tire, but besides that, there were two things. One, my chronic back problems which you covered last episode, and I wanted to do whatever I could to ameliorate these back issues. Consistent and safe back exercises are one of them, and the other thought I had was maybe my diet is affecting my back, because I was reading a lot about the typical American diet and it's inflammatory. I'm thinking I might have an inflammation issue going, my back keeps going into spasm, it's probably chronically inflamed. If I can not only exercise my back properly but maybe reduce my chronic inflammation, that might be my answer. Tim: InForm Nation, welcome to episode 25 of the InForm Fitness podcast. Twenty minutes with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman and friends. I'm Tim Edwards with the InBound Podcasting Network and a client of InForm Fitness. Joined as always by Sheila Melody, Mike Rogers, and of course Adam Zickerman. Okay team, at the time of this recording, spring has just sprung, summer is just a few months away, and I'm sure a good portion of InForm nation is already thinking about summer which means they're thinking about slimming down a little or in some cases a lot, so dieting is on their minds. We've all heard of, and I'm sure participated, in at least a few nutrition plans, like the paleo diet, the Atkin's diet, or the one that I really enjoyed a few years ago was the slow carb diet from Tim Ferris. Most recently I had tremendous success by just eating cleanly as you describe Adam in chapter three of your book, Power of Ten: The Slow Motion Fitness Revolution.So Adam, you visited LA. just a few months ago when we recorded the Adam in LaLa Land episode and frankly, you looked extremely fit. So in the last episode, you mentioned that we're going to talk about a diet that you've been on for the last X amount of days, and my question is why did you even consider going on a diet in the first place because you don't look like you need to go on one.Adam: I picked up a few lessons from my female friends and I know how to dress to hide it.Tim: You wear Spanx, that's what you're telling me?Mike: Spanx and New York black. Everyone in New York knows how to hide it.Adam: Hide our emotions.Tim: You don't hide your emotions in New York, come on.Adam: The people in L.A want to hide their emotions.Tim: We're the passive aggressive ones.Sheila: Oh no, we want to talk about our emotions.Tim: That's down in the south where they're passive aggressive, but anyway, we digress. You mentioned the diet, and here's a guy, the guru, the InForm Fitness and you're fit. So what prompted you to go on a diet?Adam: I'm so glad you asked me that question, because you know the other question I get asked in a similar vein is why do you work out Adam, you look great. Sheila: You say because I never want to look like you.Adam: That just reminded me of something Yogi Bear once said. Nobody goes to that restaurant anymore, it's always too crowded. So listen, why did I go on this diet. Well first of all, diets are not always about weight loss, fat loss. Diets are about health, or they should be. Now I know that anyone who goes on a diet, their number one concern is I want to lose body fat, which is a noble goal because being overweight has health problems associated with it. Now I did want to lose a little weight first of all, because I always said that I hide it well half-jokingly, because the other half, I did need to lose a couple of pounds and it is true that when you're wearing clothes, my lean muscular build, it's hard to know that I was getting a little bit of a spare tire underneath them, but I was getting a little bit of a spare tire, but besides that, there were two things. One, my chronic back problems which you covered last episode, and I wanted to do whatever I could to ameliorate these back issues. Consistent and safe back exercises are one of them, and the other thought I had was maybe my diet is affecting my back, because I was reading a lot about the typical American diet and it's inflammatory. I'm thinking I might have an inflammation issue going, my back keeps going into spasm, it's probably chronically inflamed. If I can not only exercise my back properly but maybe reduce my chronic inflammation, that might be my answer. So for years, I've been reading about the ketogenic diet, and for years I was poo-pooing it.Tim: Why?Adam: Because I had a vast misunderstanding about what a ketogenic diet was. Basically using ketones for fuel. I'll get into what a ketone is a little bit later, but my understanding of ketones was when your body is using ketones for fuel, or if you're producing a lot of ketones, I always understood that to be very dangerous. In my mind without realizing it, I was really thinking about what they call ketoacidosis, which is much different than nutritional ketosis, using ketones for fuel from a nutritional point of view, as opposed to something very dangerous called ketoacidosis. That was where the confusion comes in. Whenever you talk to a doctor or a nutritionist and say I want to go into ketosis, they say it's dangerous, and being in ketoacidosis is very dangerous but you cannot go into ketoacidosis just by eliminating carbohydrates or going to what they call nutritional ketosis. Ketoacidosis, let me explain what that it is. It usually afflicts people with Type I diabetes. Type I diabetics cannot produce insulin, and when you cannot produce insulin, when you eat carbohydrates, the sugar starts building up and building up, and what happens is the body can't utilize that sugar, because the insulin is not there to use that sugar and bring it into the fat cells and the muscle cells, or bring it into any cell that needs that for energy. So the body, if it can't get glucose for energy, it starts metabolizing fat for fuel. That's where it's going to get it's energy from, and it starts going crazy producing these ketones. You see ketones come from fat, the metabolism of fat. An alternative sense of energy for the body are ketones, fat gets broken down into ketones, carbohydrates get broken down into glucose and when the body breaks down carbohydrates for glucose and those glucose molecules can't be used, the body will say okay, let me go break down some body fat, get some ketones out of it, and utilize that for fuel. So it's another source of currency if you will, and if you're a Type I diabetic, your body goes crazy producing these ketones and you end up having so many ketones that you go into an acidic state, a dangerously acidic state where basically all functions of the body cannot produce and cannot function when you're in such a high acidic state. In other words, we have to have a pH level that's very, very stable, like about normal, about 7. Our pH is about 7, that's the normal functioning pH of the human body. When you start having all these ketones that start going through the roof — ketones are acidic by the way, and ketones that are not being checked or regulated, start going through the roof and you are in a very dangerous state. So a Type I diabetic can very often go into ketoacidosis and they have to go the hospital, they have to get the injections, and usually it's a diabetic that's not taking care of themselves. You cannot go into that acidic state being in what I have been in the last ninety days which is called nutritional ketosis. Nutritional ketosis is a state in where you body instead of using glucose for fuel, not because there's no insulin, but because you're not eating anything that's going to produce a lot of glucose, your body says well I need energy, so I'm going to start using fat for fuel. Every cell cannot use actual fat for energy, they have to break down the fat. Just like we have break down carbohydrates for glucose, we have to break down fat, and we're breaking them down into fat and these ketone bodies are being used for fuel. Well there's a lot of evidence right now that's showing that these ketogenic diets which are to break it down into macronutrients about 70-75% fat, about 10% protein, maybe 15% protein, and then the rest which is about 5% carbohydrates.Tim: Now immediately, red flags are flying all over when you say the diet is made up of 75%  fat. Now let's drill down on that a little bit more. We're not talking cheeseburgers.Adam: Well we're not talking cheeseburgers with the bread, but we are talking cheeseburgers. I will have red meat, I will have cheese. Red meat has to be grass fed, not this factory raised cow. So the quality of the foods that you're eating is also very important, so I eat grass fed beef and beef, the fat in the beef is very good for you. What you have to be careful of, this is what I realized and this is a very common mistake that people make on ketogenic diets, that they think it's a high fat, high protein diet, but it's not really high protein. Having too much protein can actually produce an insulin response or produce sugar, because protein can be converted into glucose, it's called gluconeogenesis, and it can be almost as bad as actually eating carbohydrates. A lot of people will eliminate their carbohydrates and they'll end up having tons of red meat, which is a lot of protein.Tim: That sounds like the Atkin's diet to me.Sheila: That's what I was just going to say.Adam: The Atkin's diet, in essence, a ketogenic diet and the misinterpretation of the Atkin's diet of a ketogenic diet is that the image is like a bunch of caveman sitting around gnawing on a dead animal or something like that and just eating fat and bacon and protein all day long. It's not like that, it's mostly vegetables that are saturated in fat like olive oil, or coconut oil or avocado oil. Salads that are doused in that kind of fat, so getting vegetables or other types of oils and avocados in general, grass fed meat, pasture raised chickens, eggs, and of course wild fish. That is my diet, and it's not like I'm eating tons of meat. I'm eating six ounces of a steak, I'm eating tons of brussel sprouts that have been roasted in coconut oil.Tim: All sounds good to me so far.Sheila: Probably 85% of the time I eat exactly what you just described.Adam: I committed to eating this way without exception for ninety days. I started at the beginning of this year.  Here we are. Tim: Where are you now at the time of this recording?Adam: It's a coincidence but I am literally, today, on my 90th day. It started January 3rd, which is a Tuesday. So I don't know if it's the 90th day, but I just finished my twelfth week starting January 3 and this is a Tuesday. So today is the last day of my twelfth week.Mike: I don't think 90 is divisible by seven.Tim: Well he's close.Mike: I've got my advocates in the corner there.Tim: So nonetheless, let's review.Adam: By the way, at the beginning I said why I did this. I thought it'd help my back, anti inflammatory. Ketogenic diets are well suspected to be anti-inflammatory. The second reason why I wanted to do this diet was because I had my annual checkup and I'm in my early 50s now, but 50s nonetheless, and my blood work is creeping the wrong way. They're starting to get on the high side of normal.Tim: Let me ask you, is that prior to going on the diet?Adam: Prior to going on the diet, I had my annual checkup and the results came in and he said to me hey, nothing to be alarmed about at this point but you're trending the wrong way. You're C-reactive protein is creeping which is an inflammatory marker, and he said your cholesterol is creeping up, it's not too high per se but it's on the higher side of normal. My A1C which is an indicator of your blood sugar was creeping up again on a high side of normal. I was like wow. These are all things that indicate that I'm going towards what many Americans go towards which is metabolic syndrome. It reminded me the same situation that Dr. Peter Attia, his story when he started his quest on ketogenic diets, and he was in the same situation. He worked out all the time, he thought he ate well most of the time. We think eating well is eating whole grain breads, and fruits, and occasionally what's so bad about having a beer here and there, and next thing you know, in a day you're still ingesting 250 grams of carbohydrates without even thinking about it. So he started taking control of it as well, and when I saw that my blood numbers were going up and then I read what Dr. Attia went through as well, I was like holy cow that's me. So that also prompted me, I wanted to see if going on a ketogenic diet would change these numbers. Well this is the 90th day so I'm about to get those numbers checked, so I'm going to report back on this but when I can talk about now is how I feel. Tim: Let's start with your back.Adam: And what has happened. First of all my back, in combination with what I've been doing with my lower back exercises and staying consistent with that, my back has never felt better. I can sit for hours in a car, or I can sit for hours at my desk, and get up sideways.Tim: And you're giving this ketogenic diet credit for assisting with that.Adam: First of all, I'm a sample size of one, so this is scientific at all, but I am giving it credit. That in conjunction with taking care of my back with the exercises. So I don't know where the cause and effect is because I've been doing a couple of things at once, but the big teller is going to be obviously the blood work that I get done soon. Besides that and besides the fact that my back feels better, I've lost fifteen pounds of weight that you didn't think that I needed to lose. So I look a lot better naked now, so I don't have to wear clothes anymore. I don't have to wear a T-Shirt to the pool anymore.Mike: You know when your body gets a little bit smaller, it gives the illusion that other things are bigger.Adam: You have that as well. Big thing that I noticed was my digestion. My digestion changed dramatically. I don't have upset stomach, my elimination if you know what I'm talking about has been undramatic, it's been beautiful.Sheila: It's a beautiful thing.Tim: Well your good friend Dr. Oz would be proud of that.Mike: Maybe this will get edited out, maybe it won't, but I'm just curious. What does beautiful mean? Tim: That actually is so it will not be edited out, so describe beautiful? You mean like one clean long — Adam: Exactly, tapered on both ends, perfect.Tim: Dr. Oz was his thing right?Adam: It's embarrassing, especially since you're talking about me.Mike: You don't sound like you're embarrassed.Adam: I am. You've got to remember that this is someone who is too shy to urinate in front of his wife. Mike: I'm going to remind you that you're the one who is talking about himself right now. Tim: So nonetheless there's a lot of fiber in this diet and it's really helping Adam a lot, so good.Sheila: That's really, really very interesting and I want to ask a question about is there a difference in how women react to this diet as opposed to how men react to this diet? Coming off that interview we had a few weeks ago with Dr. Sylvia Tera and The Secret Life of Fat, and how different men and womens' makeup is and how we process fat and everything. It sounds like something I'd like to try, and I feel like I've been kind of doing this for the most part.Tim: I think she's committing, I think she should jump on 90 days.Adam: I'm not sitting here saying everyone should jump on the ketogenic diet bandwagon first of all. I need to make that disclaimer. First of all, women are different and we're all different. I'm different from another man, and women certainly have their issues. When you talk about nutrient partitioning and that no matter what you eat, some of it is going to be partitioned to fat. Hormonal issues with women as they get older, all kinds of things. Genetics for men and women are different amongst ourselves and all these things play into it for sure, but having said that, sugar is bad. Sugar is bad, sugar is inflammatory. There is nothing good that comes out of sugar and excessive carbohydrates. I don't believe being in ketosis is dangerous anymore, and this idea of eating a lot of fat, even if it's saturated fat, especially if it's saturated fat, is not bad for you. It's been shown over and over again that dietary fat does not raise your cholesterol, so just check that box off. It's not true, it is just not true that eating egg yolks and eating red meat raises your cholesterol, that is not what is raising your cholesterol. The last ten, fifteen years have been really showing that. My blood work will show this, if I go to my blood work and my cholesterol is through the roof I'm going to have to eat my words. It might even be another cause of it, but the thing is if all my triglycerides are good and inflammatory makers are lowered and my cholesterol happens to stay on a higher side, and everything else is really, really good, I'm not going to worry about high cholesterol. High cholesterol, high LDLs are not a very good marker on heart disease.Mike: On its own.Adam: On its own. Now there's this other test that Dr. Attia actually told me to get which is an NMR, nuclear magnetic resonance test, to test for your LDLP. See when you go to the doctor and you get your cholesterol and blood work done, you're getting blood work for your LDLC. LDLC is how much cholesterol, low density cholesterol is in your blood, whereas the LDLP is showing you how many LDL proteins are in your blood. I'm getting technical right now, but it's a different marker and a much better marker and indicator of potential heart disease, this LDLP. So I'm going to get that done, and see if my LDLP is nice and low, and if that is, regardless of what my LDLC is or total cholesterol is, I'm not going to be worrying about it. Again, my A1C, my C reactive protein, these markers, if they stat going down after ninety days of eating, I'm not kidding you, 70% of my diet being fat, I'll be pretty convinced. At least for myself. Let me tell you about my experience psychologically.Tim: I'm curious how you managed this, because it seemed like a lot of drastic changes.Adam: This is why I'm not necessarily telling people to just go on this ketogenic diet. First of all, I'm not a nutritionist, I just play one on TV. So I'm a nutritionist, secondly, I'm not going to lie, it's not easy to adjust to this type of diet. If you're used to eating grains and carbohydrates — I'm essentially a vegetarian that is saturating their vegetables with saturated fat and all kinds of fats, and having small portions of animal protein, whether it be a chicken or a fish or a cow, all well raised, but they're small quantities. I'm not eating a lot. I'm also intermittent fasting. I'll go at least two or three times a week, I'll go anywhere from eighteen to twenty four hours without eating. I'll be drinking lots of liquids, I'll be drinking homemade beef broth or chicken broth, and that's it. So that's all I eat, one meal all day.Tim: So tell us your schedule Adam. So with this intermittent fasting, what time are you stopping eating at the end of the day?Adam: I'll eat dinner.Tim: At what time?Adam: Anywhere between five and seven most days. So let's say I finish eating seven. I won't eat again until at least two or three o'clock the next day. On some cases I won't eat again until dinner the next day.Mike: When you work as much as we do, I've got to be honest with you, time flies and you sometimes forget about food. I'm not as strict as Adam is, but I'm probably doing about 85% or 90% of what he is doing in regards to the ketogenic model, and the fasting model without even trying to.Adam: We work a lot and that speaks to one of the techniques that people recommend to help you through these intermittent fasts and that's distraction techniques. So when your mind keeps saying eat, eat, eat, distract yourself, pick up your guitar, write a letter, do something else. Distract yourself. A lot of this hunger by the way, is psychological, we're just not used to it mentally, but besides that, at the beginning, your body is physically wanting that food but once you start utilizing your fat for fuel and you become what they call keto-adapted where your body is primed to really use fat for fuel, and that takes a couple of weeks. Three weeks, four weeks sometimes. The first there or four weeks was the toughest because I was not adapted yet, so I was very hungry. Now, well it's 4:30 and I haven't eaten yet today. Last time I ate was dinner time around five yesterday.Mike: That's a lie, he had two celery sticks from me.Adam: That's true, it's two celery sticks so I broke my fast. Honestly I grabbed them because they were there, it was not because I was dying to eat something, and if I was dying to eat something, I certainly wouldn't have picked that.Sheila: When you say you're fasting, so you mentioned the broth though. So you have that when you're fasting, or you just have nothing, you have water.Adam: I have water mostly, but yeah, we serve bone broth here, we're making our own bone broth now. We can talk about that at a later date, but yeah, that doesn't count as cheating. It's 99.9% water, it just has the minerals and the amino acids in it. So I don't consider that really cheating, but come on. Even if I was to have a small meal, the gist of it is going long periods of time without eating, and that from my understanding is the real anti-inflammatory aspect. I mean sugar causes inflammation, and eating a lot also causes inflammation because you're breaking down all this stuff and getting all these free radicals and all this oxidative work going on, and that's what causes a lot of the inflammation. Now I'm reading and I'm learning that intermittent fasting forces the body to regenerate its cells at a lot faster of a rate. There's something to that.Sheila: I also read that an easier way to do the intermittent — well, for a sixteen hour fast that you can basically do is just stop eating at seven, and then don't eat again until eleven AM. That's sixteen hours.Adam: Basically skipping breakfast.Tim: A lot of people do that anyway.Adam: But this is the problem with intermittent fasting. When I go 24 hours, I'm hungry by then. A lot of people say they can go days without eating and these are people that are really and truly keto-adapted, maybe they've been doing it for a year or more. I don't know, but so far, I haven't been able to go more than seventeen hours without all of a sudden having all those hunger pains, and at that point I just deal with it for another few hours. At that point, when I do eat, this is the hard part. You have to eat a regular, small meal. Tim: No binging.Adam: It's so easy when you're famished like that and you've gone all day without eating, it's like you want to eat lunch, breakfast, dinner, and snacks all at one time in one sitting. You have to stop yourself from doing that.Mike: That's probably one of the differences to what was going on even before you did this 90-day thing. Our lifestyle really lent itself to — none of us eat that many carbohydrates ever. Adam hasn't for a while, but when you were, you probably — I'm just guessing because you're like me, I do these all day fasts also. If I don't have some snacks or prepare my food throughout the day as I did this week, I will come home and I will eat like seven pieces of chicken and I'm not proud of it afterwards. Unless you can control that voracious urge, you're not going to get what Adam is talking about here.Tim: So Adam, as we come to end of this episode, I really would love you to encourage you to get those tests done quickly, and if you don't mind, share some of them with our audience so that we can gauge your success. The question that I have for you right now as we put the wraps on this is okay, we're close to or at day 90. Are you going to continue and forge ahead with the exact same plan that you've had for the last three months or so, are you going to augment it a little bit, what are your plans?Adam: I'm going to continue, I'm going to stay on this. I might eat a little bit more often at this point, because I don't really need to lose anymore body fat. I've got the six pack going for the summer, that's all good.Tim: Look at you, he's in his 50s and he has a six pack, that's impressive.Sheila: Do you drink coffee, can I ask that?Adam: I drink coffee. Let me speak to something Mike just said. He was saying that we're generally very good about not eating carbs, and that's partially true, with me anyway. What I mean by that is I have two young kids and I grab the M&Ms. My wife buys five-pound bags of them so she can make pancakes for the kids. Don't get me started, my wife will not let me put my kids on a ketogenic diet.Mike: My wife is a nutritionist and she would never let it happen either.Adam: Because they're afraid of ketoacidosis, but anyway what I wanted to say was this. My diet before I started this, yes, I'd go three or four days really good, and then I'll eat a whole pizza. I would never really string along many consistent weeks or days. I'd eat well one day, not very much the other day, summers come, barbecue, hotdogs, hamburgers, I just went for it. I can get away with it. You said at the beginning of this piece, Adam you don't look like you need to lose weight, why'd you start this diet? I was creeping up, and even though it appears that I eat very well, and I obviously eat well most of the time. I certainly eat good foods but I also supplement them with not such good stuff. This last 90 days, I made a commitment not to deviate from that, to be really consistent with it. Yes it's higher fat than I would normally do when I did eat well. Less protein than I would normally — that's what I learned about a ketogenic diet, that most people make the primary mistake of eating too much protein on a ketogenic diet, and so this has been the first time in my life that I've been this disciplined in my eating. I'm older now, I can't get away with what I used to get away with. The other thing that I want to say before we wrap this up is about cravings. I always hear about how you go on these low carb diets and when your body starts getting used to and primed for utilizing fat for fuel, they say you eliminate all your cravings. Bullshit. To me anyway. Maybe the physical cravings aren't there and I told you I could go all day and not really be hungry, but the truth of the matter is, I'm craving the foods that I've been giving up nonstop. To this day, 90 days into it give or take, I still crave the pizza. I still see my kids eating the pizza, I still see the buns on the hamburgers and I want it, I want it bad. I say no, the cravings are there. Maybe the physical cravings aren't there as much.Tim: What do you mean by physical cravings, define that.Adam: My stomach growling and saying man you're hungry, you've got to eat. Or feeling a little lightheaded, or physically feeling the effects of hunger. Now that I'm keto-adapted I don't have those physical — when I'm 24 hours in I start to feel them, but eighteen hours fasts, it's a no-brainer for me, it's as easy as it could be. Even though those physical things aren't there, I pass a pizza place, I pass chicken wings at the Superbowl, hot dogs at the baseball game. Beer, alcohol, I want it all, those cravings have not subsidized. I don't look at them and say ew. I want it badly, but I don't do it.Sheila: It's easier to not do it.Adam: So going forward, I'm going to continue my strict ketogenic diet for at least another 30 days. I might eat a little bit more food, but not the foods I'm not supposed to be having on a ketogenic diet. The foods I can have, add a little bit to my portions, but that's the extent of it for the next thirty days. By that point, I'll have my blood work done and we'll talk about this some more.Mike: I just think before we wrap up, I think blood tests aside, that's data that we all need. It's great to get all that stuff, but the bottom line is you've taken an educated approach to selfexperimentation and troubleshooting your body to figure out how to improve it, and your back has felt better. Do we know it's because of the ketogenic diet, maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but regardless you're in a trend where you feel so much better. Your body feels better, your back feels better. You like the way you look, you feel, it's like I almost want to say — if the tests are completely negative or there's no improvement or any markers have been changed, who cares. Looking at someone who looks healthy also. They say that they feel great but they don't look healthy, but this is not the case.Adam: Like vegans. First of all, I want to say that this is not a ringing endorsement or a push for people to go ketogenic. I'm not going to be that bull at this point to say something like that. It's definitely a viable option, and before you go into something like this, check with your doctor and do a lot of research, because compared to the recommendations by the ADA, the American Diet Association, this is not what's recommended. I want to make this disclaimer. Look into it for sure, do your research. If it sounds like you, if I sounded like you, definitely look into it. Like Mike just said, I'm very well researched. I have a background in biochemistry, I know how to read these things. I'm a little bit different than your average bear when it comes to this type of thing. If you're not in that world, you should get advice when you do something like this.Sheila: Can you give us a starting point?Adam: Yeah, I do, I recommend the doctor that I mentioned earlier. Dr. Peter Attia, and his website is called the eating academy. Read everything this guy writes, and he also refers you to other things he reads so that is a great start. The eating academy by Dr. Peter Attia. So if you're interested in possibly doing this for yourself, well pay attention to our podcast, we're going to be reporting back on this in a little while when I get my blood work back and we'll take it from there. Good luck.Tim: Okay. So don't forget to check out the show notes for a link to the website that Adam referenced, spotlighting the research done by Dr. Peter Attia. That's eatingacademy.com. Looking forward to the results of Adam's blood work to gauge the success of his three-month ketogenic dietary journey, and we should have that for you coming up in the next few weeks. Also on the way, we have a couple of interviews that we're really excited about here at the InForm Fitness Podcast. In two weeks, we'll be speaking with happiness expert, Gretchen Rubin. Gretchen has authored several books and has sold more than two million copies in thirty different languages. She has been a client of InForm Fitness for many years, and she has a popular podcast of her own, titled Happier with Gretchen Rubin. So give it a listen and even subscribe to her podcast so you can become more familiar with Gretchen before she joins us here on the show, and in the process, pick up some valuable tips on being, well, happier. Next week, we'll be talking to Dr. Martin Gaballa, the author of the One Minute Workout. Adam and Dr. Gaballa will contrast and compare high-intensity strength training like we do here at InForm Fitness, and high-intensity interval training, as described in Dr. Gaballa's book, The One Minute Workout. If you'd like to find an InForm Fitness location nearest you so you can give this high-intensity strength training workout a try for yourself, please visit informfitness.com and at the time of this recording, we have locations in Manhattan, Port Washington, Danville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg, and in Restin. If you aren't near an InForm Fitness location, you can always pick up Adam's book via Amazon: Power of Ten, The Once a Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution. Included in the book are several exercises that support this protocol that you canIf you aren't near an InForm Fitness location, you can always pick up Adam's book via Amazon: Power of Ten, The Once a Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution. Included in the book are several exercises that support this protocol that you can actually perform on your own at a gym nearest you. We'll have a link to Adam's book in the show notes as well. Thanks again for listening, and for Sheila Melody, Mike Rogers, and Adam Zickerman of InForm Fitness, I'm Tim Edwards with the InBound Podcasting Network.Thanks again for listening, and for Sheila Melody, Mike Rogers, and Adam Zickerman of InForm Fitness, I'm Tim Edwards with the InBound Podcasting Network.

Original Airdate:  April 13, 2016 “Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you limp.” –Adam Well, consider the title a bit of a content spoiler.  With Kevin getting back from a brutal work bender, this was the first time we’d been together in over a month.  A catch up was in order.  What are we doing.  How are we BUSY and what’s going on in the DADDY world.  We then make the leap into the SCI-FI part of the podcast title. We watched the listener suggested flick COHERENCE, Kevin breaks down the current state of Chinese Sci-Fi with THE THREE BODY PROBLEM, and we talk about how Cronenberg influenced William Gibson with VIDEODROME. SPOILER POLICY:  We take a “fly on the wall” approach to our listeners.  As such, some of what we discuss falls into the realm of SPOILERS.  Consider yourself warned. WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY TALKING ABOUT? BOOKS: THE THREE BODY PROBLEM by Liu Cixin MOVIES:  COHERENCE, 2014, Dir by James Ward Byrkit MEET THE FEEBLES, 1989, Dir by Peter Jackson DEAD RINGERS, 1988, Dir by David Cronenberg TELEVISION: DAREDEVIL, 2016, Netflix VINYL, 2016, HBO   If you enjoyed BUSY DADDIES DO SCI-FI, please take the time to rate and review us on iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you may find your podcasts.  You can follow us on Twitter or Instagram at BDDSCiFi. Thanks for listening and keep coming back.

The secret to losing 20 pounds? You have to work with your fat, not against it.  Here in Episode 22 on The Inform Fitness Podcast, Adam Zickerman and his team are joined by biochemist and author of The Secret Life of Fat, Dr. Sylvia Tara.Dr. Tara explains how you can outsmart your body fat, with cutting-edge research and historical perspectives to reveal fat's true identity.   Once you understand it…you can beat it. For The Secret Life of Fat audio book in Audible click here:  http://bit.ly/TheSecretLifeofFat_IFF_PodcastTo purchase The Secret Life of Fat in Amazon click here: http://bit.ly/TheSecretLifeofFat_AmazonDon't forget Adam's Zickerman's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution.  You can buy it from Amazon by clicking here: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTenTo find an Inform Fitness location nearest you to give this workout a try, please visit www.InformFitness.com.  At the time of this recording, we have locations in Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg and RestenIf you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com. Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. For information regarding the production of your own podcast just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards at tim@InBoundPodcasting.comThe Transcriptions for the entire episode is below:22 The Secret Life of FatTim: Hey InForm Nation, thanks for joining us once again here for episode 22 of the InForm  Fitness Podcast, twenty minutes with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman and friends. I'm Tim Edwards with the InBound Podcasting network, and a client of InForm Fitness, and after some time off, excited to finally get back behind the mic with our team. Let's start with Sheila Melody, the co-owner and general manager of the Burbank location. Sheila, nice to see you again.Sheila: Hey Tim, great to be back with everybody again!Tim: It's been a while, and the rest of our team as always, still joining us via Skype from the Manhattan location in New York City headquarters for the InForm fitness empire. General manager Mike Rogers and the founder of InForm Fitness, Adam Zickerman. What's up gents, good to see you again!Adam: Hey guys.Mike: All is good.Tim: Adam, in your book Power of Ten: The Once a Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution, you described the three pillars necessary to achieve maximum success with the slow motion, high-intensity strength training system. For those who are just joining us for the first time, Adam please remind us of those three pillars.Adam: Exercise, rest, and nutrition.Tim: And nutrition. We spent a lot of time on this podcast discussing pillar one, exercise, and our special guest today also joining us via Skype, will allow us to dive deeper into pillar number two, which as you just mentioned Adam, is nutrition. We're pleased to welcome our guest who has a PhD in biochemistry and is the author of The Secret Life of Fat, Dr. Sylvia Tara. Glad to have you with us today.Sylvia: Great, thank you. It's terrific to be here.Tim: All four of us have spent the last couple of weeks digesting this book. I think Adam and Mike read the book, and Sheila, we listened to the book via Audible. It really helped us all change the way we look at fat, which I know is the point of the whole thing, but before we get started, Adam, I know you were the one who introduced this topic to the team here. What is it Adam that made you want to bring Sylvia on, to discuss The Secret Life of Fat?Adam: Well it was back in 2007 that I read this Scientific American article, that was called, if I remember correctly, What Fuels Fat, and it was then that I saw that Scientific American article that I realized how complicated fat is, and how complex it is. It was the first time that somebody had referred to fat as an organ, and then, recently, I'm listening to NPR and there's Dr. Tara talking about this book, which I thought the title was amazing. The Secret Life of Fat, and it reminded me of back in 2007, ten years ago, about this article I had read in Scientific American, and I was like oh my god. I had forgotten all about that, I've got to get this book and read it. You did such a great job, Dr. Tara, as far as breaking down such a complex subject and making us understand, quite honestly, how difficult it is to understand fat and we're in the personal training business, high-intensity exercise business, and all of our clients, most of them, are struggling with fat loss. I thought maybe we can use your book to prompt conversation and be honest with our clients and basically tell them what the facts are. What to expect when it comes to battling the bulge.Mike: What they're up against.Sylvia: That's a great idea, and that's also why I decided to go and do all this research, because I'm one of those people who has a lot of trouble managing weight. I always gain weight very easily, even as a child, I packed on pounds much easier than my friends who ate candy and ice cream all day long, and as I got older, it just got worse. Some of my old tricks stopped working, I had all these tricks in my twenties where I could take weight off pretty quickly if I had to, but then after having two kids, after launching a career and getting very busy, being stretched and traveling, my old tricks weren't working anymore. I went on a number of diets, there's always this new diet, and I tried a number of them every year, and sometimes they would work, they would work temporarily. Sometimes I could even gain weight on some of these diets, and I'd worked with personal trainers too, and they're all really — just [Inaudible: 00:03:59] their dogma, they have a certain philosophy they follow and one of them is you have to eat enough calories to lose weight. They were always stunned at how little I actually had to eat, and even then, I wasn't skinny, so I was about to go on yet another diet; I think paleo was all the rage and I said let me try this, and I started reading about just how complicated it was and I thought you know what, forget it. I said before I go on even one more diet, I'm going to understand everything there is to know about fat. I'm a biochemist by training, and if anyone can understand fat, I can. So I read everything, I think I pulled over a thousand articles out of the scientific literature, I read them all, and I talked to over fifty thought leaders, leading researchers around the world about this, their cutting edge research on fat. What I was finding out, which was so interesting, so astounding; it turned out that fat wasn't anything I thought it was, it's not just a reserve of calories, it's not just holding energy, waiting for us to use it. It has a whole life of its own underneath there. It can fight back when we try to lose it, it controls our thoughts about food, it controls metabolism. It can divert blood supply to itself, it's doing all these really strange things. It's as if it's another person inside of you, and if you're not equipped, if you don't understand what fat really is, you're just about bound to keep going on diets and regaining and regaining. The diet industry tends to make you think you're doing something wrong. If this diet doesn't work for you, it's really simple to follow, and then it's your fault; surely you're not staying on it, surely you're not adhering, and that's not the case. Having people feel that guilt isn't helping them, it's causing frustration and then it's leading to binging, it's leading to depressed feelings and things like that. So I think once we just educate ourselves on fat, what it is exactly, why it's so hard to lose, the better equipped we are to stay very persistent. So knowledge is power, and in this case in particular, I think just having that knowledge helped me stay on something. It also helped me not just follow siren songs, like with the new diet fad of the year, let me try that. It's like now I've got it, I know what works for me now, I can tailor my own diet. I really just felt empowered, and hopefully, some of that is what I'm trying to do with people. You don't have to follow my diet that worked for me, and I did something pretty extreme in my own experience to get off weight, but you can tailor something to work for you, depending on what you need psychologically, biologically, and for your lifestyle as well.Adam: That's a great introduction, and so while we're talking about your quest to find out exactly what fat is, why don't you explain what exactly is fat, and why is it called an organ?Sheila: Like I said, fat, the way we think of it is like this blubber. It's like this excess, greasy yellow stuff, and it's funny because I have this plastic model of fat, and when I show it to people, their first reaction is like ew, that's disgusting. We just have this whole image of what it is, but it's doing so much more tha n just sitting there as this greasy, yellow substance. It actually produces hormones that our body depends on, and these are hormones, mostly only produced by fat. So you can think of fat as not just a reserve of calories, it's an endocrine organ, like your adrenal cortex, it's like your thyroid gland, it's like any other endocrine organ we have. One of these hormones is leptin, and leptin has vast influence all over our body, I mean you'd be shocked at how much we defend on our fat for this hormone. Our brain size is linked to healthy fat, our brain size and the way we think, cognitive abilities even, is linked to an adequate supply of leptin which comes from fat. Our reproductive organs, particularly in women; if we get too low levels of fat, or if we have defective fat that's not producing leptin, we can't reproduce. Then there's bones, bone strength is reliant on fat as well. Even wound healing, this was really interesting, that leptin binds within our veins and so people that have anorexia or, again, defective fat, they don't heal as quickly. We're just at the tip of this, I think leptin was really in the 90s when it came out, and we're just discovering more and more how important it is in our body, and how much we're dependent on our fat for good health. One of the things too, is that leptin, because it does control our mind to some extent and it controls appetite, when we lose a lot of fat, like say 10% of our body weight, it has a big effect on us. Actually, our appetite will go through the roof, so leptin is released from fat cells, it goes into the blood, and it binds to the  hypothalamus region of our brain, and there's an appetite center there. So with lower levels of leptin after losing quite a bit of weight, we actually get very, very hungry, we're driven to eat. So our fat in a way is controlling itself, it's driving us to actually come back. It will also lower our metabolism, so skeletal muscle during exercise, 25% fewer calories is what we'll end up using, and 15% fewer during rest. So overall, you need 22% fewer calories after you've lost about 10% of your weight or more, compared to someone who has never lost weight. So to make that a little clearer for people, if someone is 150 pounds and they've been at that weight naturally for a good part of life, compared to someone who has lost 20 pounds, who was 170 pounds and lost 20 pounds to get to 150 pounds; the person who has lost weight to get to 150 will have 22% fewer calories than someone who is naturally there, and that's because of the effect of lowering leptin, and the reduction in metabolism we get. So a diet is not just for six months, this effect I just talked about, higher appetite and lower metabolism, it's been studied for six years, it's seemed to last for six years. I think it can even last longer, I've talked to some people who have lost weight and they say they still feel like this, they still have to eat a lot less. So don't pick a diet for six months, pick a diet that you're going to stay on for years and years, that you like. It works with you, works with your lifestyle, works with what you like to eat, and in having its effect, it's helping you lose weight. Just knowing that I think has helped people a lot. I know my editor, when he read my manuscript for the book, he actually lost 15 pounds because he actually understood fat. He knew what was going on, he understood why he was hungry at night and all these other things, biochemically what fat was doing, and it's just helped us all persist a little bit more.Tim: Dr. Tara, for our audience, of course, they're listening to the InForm Fitness Podcast because they participate with this high intensity, strength training system through Power of Ten. Let's talk about exercise for a minute, and tell us how fat is affected with high-intensity strength training, like we do at InForm Fitness.Sylvia: There's a bunch of things, so what we can do really to get smarter about fat and how we manage it, is it's one thing to not just manage it and be able to persist for long periods of time because we now understand fat, but you can start using hormones to your advantage. One of the hormones that's been talked about all the time is insulin, lots of books on insulin and fat, and making sure we have low sugar. We're not provoking too much insulin because insulin helps store calories into fat tissue, and that's all good and fine. Two other hormones to know about, one is growth hormone, that's a great fat burning hormone, and we get less of it, we have less of it as we age, and so one thing is that it peaks at night. So what you can do is extend that overnight fasting part, and that will actually extend the release of growth hormone, really important as we age. Testosterone is another great fat burning hormone, and that also decreases as we age. Now high intensity interval training is good for a number of things: one is that is associated, exercise in general is associated with the release of growth hormone and testosterone, so some strength building exercise is good for growth hormone and testosterone, and even jogging is good for both hormones. Then [Inaudible: 00:11:32] is another hormone fat releases, and this is a hormone made by fat, and it actually helps clear our blood of triglycerides and put fat, circulating fat into fat tissue where it belongs. High-intensity interval training three times a week is associated with some of these hormones as well, and it decreases visceral fat, and so how I think of it is that you're really affecting your hormones when you do HIIT. You're increasing some of these fat-busting hormones, you're helping get adiponectin, and you're reducing your visceral fat. I think it's one of the reasons that works very well, because when you think about it, you're not exercising for long, you're doing it for a short period of time but extremely intensely, and that's affecting your hormones and how your body is reacting to it. It's a great trick, I think, to just help remove stubborn fat.Sheila: I was so inspired by your book Dr. Tara because I totally related to your personal story, and I'm middle-aged, and I'm suddenly going what in the hell is going on here? So it was really nice, even being in the fitness business, being a personal trainer, being involved in all of this for my entire life basically, so I was very encouraged by your story, to make some changes and to understand why you want to add certain exercises in. The diet thing is one thing, but for me, what was a real a-ha moment was when you described why you would exercise. The hormones are listening, your fat is listening to you, so can you talk a little bit more about how your fat listens to you, and the messages you send to it. It's way more important than just the calories you're going to burn by doing that cardio or whatever exercise you're doing.Sylvia: That's exactly right. So your fat can talk and it can listen, so it'll talk by sending out hormones. It can talk to your brain and tell you how to think about food, and it can talk to your muscles and have it lower metabolism, so it's a way of communicating, and a lot of different organs in our body will emit hormones, and it has a whole communication system inside that you've never even considered and thought about. So it can talk by releasing leptin, adiponectin, and even other hormones. It can also listen, our fat, it can listen to other hormones coming from other organs. It has receptors for estrogen and testosterone on them, a number of other receptors too, so when other parts of our body starts releasing those hormones, our fat grabs it, it listens to it. It has ears if you will, and those hormones will tell fat what to do. So testosterone will help fat liquidate itself, even estrogen will, growth hormone certainly will. So when we're exercising, we're changing the communication signals in our body in a number of ways. Not only is our fat listening, but our muscles, our bones, we have a lot of different communications between these different organs, and so I think that's the smart way to fight fat. Calories do matter, I wouldn't say they don't, but more importantly is what are you doing with your hormone levels, and very small changes can actually have a pretty good effect. That's shown, I do a little writing about hormone replacement therapy which is really big here, especially in California, and it works wonders for people. I'm not ready for that yet, I wasn't ready to get external hormones injected in, but I did really work hard at ways to naturally increase some of these hormones that decline with age, including growth hormone and testosterone in particular, and adiponectin, just releasing that from fat. You did bring up women, and women in particular, we battle fat much more. I don't think there's a single woman in the world who wouldn't agree that men have an easier time losing weight than women do.Sheila: That's the other thing I got from this book, I was like oh my god, it's true! It's just the hard truth though, it's the way it is, and understanding that helps us to — what about even the way that we eat and the nutrition partitioning? Also if you could speak a little bit about the cardio, when you said women exercise and when it goes over beyond 4-600 calories, how it's different between men and women.Sylvia: Sure. Just to make everyone feel better, women are fatter, we think even in utero, compared to — from the time they exist, girl babies have more fat than boy babies, and the single best predictor is gender when it comes to fat in infants. It's not age, it's not length, not any of those things, it's gender, so many reasons for why women do gain more weight than men, but we can go over a few of them. One of them is nutrient partitioning, so when we eat something, say like a hundred calories or so, we'll actually partition more of those nutrients into fat, compared to what men will do. So as an example, if we eat about a hundred calories, we'll put about thirty calories say, for example, compared to men who might put 15 calories of those into their fat, compared to their lean tissue. So we put more in, and women actually utilize their fat differently as well. So after a time of energy depletion, like after an overnight fast, after we've slept for a long time, or after we've exercised intensely and we've depleted some energy, women's bodies will reach for fat as a source of energy, whereas men will reach more for glycogen and for protein. You would think this was a great thing because we're using our fat and we're going to lose all this weight now. The issue is that after we've replenished and after we went to energy depletion, we're actually storing fat much more efficiently than the men, two to three times more efficiently than men do. So for the one hour we're exercising or whatever, yeah, we're burning more fat off, but the rest of the day, we're packing more fat away. There's some good news for women in all of this, that even though we tend to be a little bit softer, a little bit fatter than men, the good part is that we are clearing those triglycerides out of our blood and putting it into some subcutaneous fat tissue where it belongs. So subcutaneous fat tissue is that fat tissue right underneath our skin, compared to visceral fat, which is fat underneath the stomach wall, which is less healthy. Women are very good at clearing triglycerides, fats, out of our blood and putting it into subcutaneous fat, and that keeps us more safe from cardiovascular disease, from metabolic issues, that tend to run a little bit higher in men. Men actually are not as efficient at this, and it's one of the reasons why they have more visceral fat, and more cardiac disease as well. So just take some solace in that, although we're softer, we don't fit into jeans as well, we can't eat as much, overall our bodies are doing what they're supposed to do, which is putting fat into our blood and storing it into safe deposits where it belongs. So when we burn off, say, around six hundred calories, so a really good bout of exercise, we release more ghrelin, 33% more ghrelin than men do, and ghrelin is a hunger hormone that comes out of the stomach. So we respond more to exercise, and then it also leads to more compensation. If you put a buffet out in front of us after we've done that exercise, we'll eat more than men do, and the interesting part is even after we eat more, we still have 25% higher ghrelin, and so that's a lesson learned for women I think. Either keep the exercise a little bit more moderate, or really distract yourself after you exercise. Go watch TV or go shopping, in fact go shopping for jeans and you'll see how much you don't want to eat. Just do something, be aware that you're hungrier and you have to really control the reaction to want to fill yourself up.Sheila: Does it pass after a certain amount of time?Sylvia: I haven't seen research on it but I can tell you my experience, no, it'll be all day. My own little trick is I exercise at night, so I'll exercise between 7, even up to 10 o'clock, and I'll just go to bed. If I sleep on it, it'll disappear, I'm not as hungry the next day as I am during the day.Adam: Dr. Tara, to change the subject a little bit, because there's so much in your book that you touch on, and one of the most fascinating things about fat and how we retain fat is this biome in our stomachs. It turns out, as you say, people have different biomes in their stomach, and depending upon their bacterial content if you will, the types of bacteria that make up their biome, that will depend on whether you're obese or not, or whether you're thin or not.Sylvia: That's a really interesting field, and a quickly changing field, I feel like they're learning new things all the time. The thinking, the standard thinking was that if you have a higher proportion of [Inaudible: 00:19:59] in your gut compared to [Inaudible: 00:20:02], that those people tended to extract more calories out of food, they tended to be heavier, and it's a cycle. So what we eat also affects the bacteria that we have, so people who are eating higher fats, higher carbohydrates, they were having the type of phyla associated more with extracting calories and having a heavier body type. People who were eating more fruits and vegetables had a different phyla, they had more diversity, and so I think what they're seeing now, there's a little bit of movement away from that type of thinking of [Inaudible: 00:20:33] and more thinking about diversity in our gut. People who have higher diversities of bacteria tend to have a leaner body type, and it's all really interesting because another observation was that the bacteria we have in our gut, it tends to run in families. So they're wondering if this is how obesity is growing, because once somebody has someone's bacteria that is associated with a thicker body type, is it spreading to children, is it having something to do with childhood obesity? This is moving, so there are things we can do though. One is what I just said, when you eat more fruits and vegetables, it's tougher to digest those. So one way bacteria works is that it helps us digest foods that our normal body could not, things like polysaccharides and fibrous foods, plants. It helps turn all those starches into glucose, something we can easily absorb. It also helps with fat storage as well, so the more we're giving our microbiome a run for the money, really nice tough salads and things like that, more is passing into waste than would be getting absorbed into our gut. Also just keeping your gut healthy, I think some of these probiotics and like artichokes, bananas, legumes, also keep a nice gut lining, a healthy mucous lining, that also fosters a good diversity of bacteria. So there's a lot of diet books on this in no field alone, but it is a quickly changing field scientifically. I think the best advice we can take from it right now is just try to eat more fruits and vegetables; it's very trite advice, I'm aware of that, but part of it is that I just wanted to understand how the microbiome was working. It's viruses too that do have an effect, and I write about being able to catch fat in a way. There's some viruses associated with higher weight gain and obesity, and I write about that pretty much at length in the book, but I think it's not all bad news. We just have to work harder, so if you have a microbiome that's tilted towards gaining weight, you will have to work harder, you'll have to eat a little less, you'll have to eat more salads versus more fats and high carbohydrates. If you have the virus, I mean that's tough too, and I write about one patient who did have the virus and he gained weight excessively easily. He just has to eat less, it's harder for him, he'll eat about 1200 calories a day and he's 6'1”, he's a big guy. It's just the way it is, and I think part of what I want to do in my book is let's just face facts. Let's not pretend this is easy, let's not say it's the simple diet of 1, 2, 3, and you'll lose weight. For some of us it's just harder, and at least know why it is harder, and then there are some small tweaks you can make that will help you fight your fat in a smarter way.Tim: Dr. Terra, I've got to tell you one of the many things I enjoyed about your book is how you not only provided all of us with a very detailed science lesson regarding fat, but how you describe both the harm fat can cause, and its usefulness in the form of the patient stories, one of which you just referred to right now. So it's a great read, it's very informative, I think it's changed the four of our lives in how we look at fat and it'll do the same thing for our audience as well too. I know we're short on time but I do want to, if we can, add one more element to this. You mentioned genetics. We're all victims of our genetics, but exercise can help us fight what we've inherited negatively through our genetics.Sylvia: That's right. So for genetics, what they do find is that exercise can attenuate some of the effect of these genetics, so if you increase exercise by six times or more over resting metabolism, which is achieved by running four to six miles an hour, or cycling about twelve to sixteen miles per hour, it actually attenuates some of the effects of those genes. It's like even at some point your genes have to just give up and give in, and admit that you're using a lot of energy and it can't hold on anymore. Again, it's one of these instances where we just have to work a little bit harder, there's one gene, FTO, that actually causes a higher desire to eat energy dense foods, so things like cookies and brownies, and with kids who have this variation, when we test them, they'll actually go to a buffet and compare them to normal kids who don't have this FTO variation, they found that kids with the FTO variation, they actually will load up much more on things like chips and cookies, compared to the other kids. It affects appetite as well, so it still gets down to the things that we can do, and that includes food, it includes eating smart, eating for your hormones, exercising for your hormones. Just being a little smarter about it, don't quite think of it as calorie in, calorie out. There's certain times of the day that you can eat or not eat and it'll help you release more of that growth hormone, more of those fat busting hormones. Certain types of things that you can eat that will affect your hormones, and I'm not just talking about insulin, but growth hormone and testosterone too. So think very holistically about it. There are some treatments coming out in the future that I'm hopeful will help people lose weight. One of them is leptin injections, if that will ever get approved. So like I said, we lose leptin when we lose fat, and what they've done is actually inject leptin back into people who have lost 10% of their fat or more, and they find that their metabolism improves, and their quest to eat is not as strong anymore. So it helps them maintain the lower weight, but that's way off in the future I'm sorry to say; that's going to be another ten years, minimum, before that would ever reach consumers. There's other things too, there's injecting brown fat, brown fat is a type of fat which will actually burn calories versus white fat, which the main function is to store, and that will is also far into the future. In the meantime what we can do is just be smart, customize a diet that works for you. Really keep a log of what you eat, when, what type of food it is, and then weigh yourself every day, and you'll start to see where the correlation is. Everybody is really different, and in The Secret Life of Fat, I write about this research from Israel actually, where they've studied a large number of people and they look at their blood sugar after they eat various foods. What they noticed is that some people can eat chocolate and they can have alcohol and they don't get a blood sugar spike; other people can't, they react, and so they're storing more fat as well because the blood sugar spike leads to insulin, that will help store all of that into fat. So we're all really different, and it varies based on a lot of things that we talked about, like the genetics, microbiome, gender, etc. So some things will work for you that don't work for your neighbor and vice versa, so just be very attentive. Watch what you can eat versus can't, I know there's some things I can't believe I can get away with, everyone will tell me I'm crazy for eating this but it doesn't make me gain weight. I can have small amounts of chocolate in the middle of the day, nothing bad happens to me, thank god because I really can't live without it.Tim: You just made a lot of people mad, Dr. Tara.Mike: And happy. They'll have to troubleshoot for themselves. I have one last quick question, Sylvia. We talked about nutrition, we talked about fitness and the troubleshooting processes with regulation of your fat, to either gain or to lose. I know you mentioned in your book a little bit about cortisol and stress management, and what we know about as far as weight gain or weight loss. I know we have a lot of clients who are under stressful times in their life, and I'm not sure if the correlation is directly related to that or other things or whatever, but I've seen people gain a lot of weight or lose a lot of weight as a result of stress.Sylvia: I know there's news about cortisol, I actually think too much might be made out of cortisol. Cortisol has a link to abdominal fat, so when we're stressed out, we have more cortisol which is linked to some amounts of fat. I think more the issue is how we psychologically react to stress. So being on a diet, maintaining a good, healthy regimen, it actually takes an application of willpower, and when people have stress in their lives, like even during the recession or a bad economic time, or they lose a job or are going through a divorce, they are less able to stay with something else that requires stress. It's like all the stress is being focused on this one event, and they can't absorb more. So in a way, our willpower is like a muscle and it can be depleted. In fact, in the recession that we had more recently around 2008, candy sales soared. So people didn't feel like being on a diet, they just want to indulge, they're stressed out, so I think psychological factors are more of it than even cortisol. Those are things that are important to note because we never get rid of stress in our lives, I mean I get stressed out just sitting in traffic. There's stress all around us, so one thing is if you're going through a really stressful time, it's not a great time to start a diet honestly. You'll just feel like a failure if you do try because it gets hard. So choose a diet at the right time and then manage to stay on it. Two important things to know when you're staying on a diet and really giving a good effort is that you actually need to reward yourself. Our willpower gets depleted at times, and they find that hospital workers who are told to wash their hands all day, towards the end of the day, they'll just stop. They just don't feel like doing it, but if they give them longer breaks between their shifts, they'll continue to wash their hands during the day. So there's something around being depleted, feeling like you've had enough of a break in between that you can stay on a regimen. So give yourself a break either by going off your diet every once in a while, or going off and doing something fun, but make sure that you're entering in some happiness. Another study I talk about is people who have a hand exerciser for a long time, a hand gripper, and they divide them into two: they have one watch a sad movie for a while and then another group watch a happy movie, and then they give them the hand exerciser back, the hand gripper back. They find the people who watched the happy movie can stick with that hand gripper a long time, so scientifically, you actually need to recharge, you need to come off and have some fun. The important thing is to get right back on, and this is where dichotomous thinking can come on. So people sometimes when they go off a diet, they go down this slippery slope where they can't get back on. Like I've had ice cream, I've completely failed, and now I'm just going to go off, it doesn't matter. That's called dichotomous thinking, and people who have that problem are actually more prone to depression, they're more prone to eating disorders, so it's a really bad thing to have, and women have it much more than men do. I've read about that in studies —Adam: Add that to the list.Sylvia: So the self love element is really important, and it's funny, I write it about in the book. There's one researcher from Mayo who said that women get something out of food that men don't; when men come off their diet, they're like yeah I had a beer, so what? I'm going to get back on and women are going to be like I had all these problems and I gave up, and I feel really badly now. The successful weight coaches or weight loss coaches, they're very good at coaching people back on. So if you can do that for yourself, you'll have so much more success than if you just beat yourself up every time you come off. You're going to have come off, you can't stay on, you need to recharge yourself, and then be forgiving. You came off, but you had 30 great days ahead of that, so now you're just going to have another 30 great days going forward. So tons of advice in the book, and as you can see from all my talking, there's a lot of research in it, a lot of points to know.Tim: The book is The Secret Life of Fat, it brings together cutting edge research with historical perspectives to reveal fat's true identity, and this episode, like you just said, we've just scratched the surface of all of the valuable information contained in this book, which is available Walmart, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Audible, and other locations as well. Dr. Sylvia Tara, thanks so much for joining us here at the InForm Fitness Podcast. We certainly wish you the best of luck with your book, and really appreciate you being with us, thank you.Sylvia: Great, thank you so much. It was great to be here.Tim: We'll include links in the show notes to Dr. Sylvia Tara's book, The Secret Life of Fat. Just scroll down past the description in your podcast app, and you'll find links to purchase the hard copy of her book in Amazon, or if you're like me and you like to listen to your books, we'll have a link to the book in Audible. You'll also find the link to pick up Adam's book, Power of Ten: The Once a Week, Slow Motion Fitness Revolution. Included in Adam's book are several exercises that support this protocol that you can actually perform on your own if you don't happen to live near an InForm Fitness location. For those that do live in Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg, and Reston, good news, there's an InForm Fitness to you. Pop on over to informfitness.com to get a glimpse of each location. Better yet, set up a consultation to begin your own journey with the Power of Ten. Be sure to join us next week, because Adam has a confession he would like to make to all of us who are a part of InForm Nation. I'll tell you this much, it's something that he's been struggling with most of his life, and something that a lot of us might have in common with him. To guarantee that you don't accidentally miss an upcoming episode of the InForm Fitness Podcast, just subscribe, it's very simple. Hit the subscribe button and every single Monday morning, we'll have a new episode waiting for you. For Sheila Melody, Mike Rogers, and Adam Zickerman of InForm Fitness, I'm Tim Edwards, with the InBound Podcasting network. 

After 9 years of slow motion, high intensity, strength training at InForm Fitness in Manhattan, client Hence Orme decided to change up his workout and leave InForm Fitness.  After a year and a half away Hence decided to come back.Why did Hence leave Inform Fitness in the first place, what type of exercise program did he do, and why did he come back.?Join InForm Fitness founder, Adam Zickerman and Hence's trainer Mike Rogers for their interview with The Prodigal InForm Fitness Client.To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you to give this workout a try, please visit www.InformFitness.com.  InForm Fitness has locations located in Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg, and Resten.  If you aren't currently near an InForm Fitness grab a copy of Adam's book, Power of 10, The Once a Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution, click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen  Adam breaks down the three pillars necessary to achieve maximum benefits of this workout along with simple to follow exercises you can do at home or in a gym near you. If you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com.  You can also call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. To produce a podcast of your own just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards a tim@InBoundPodcasting.comThe transcription for Episode 21 - Return of the Prodigal Client is below: __________________________________________________________________Adam: Well Hence, welcome to our show. I'm very excited to have you here.Hence: Thank you, it's great to be here.Adam: The reason that I'm excited to have Hence here is because he is a client that started here many years ago —Hence: 2006.Adam: 2006, was here for many years. He's experimented his whole life with exercise, and then he took a hiatus and he started experimenting with some more things after here, and now he has come back. Then Mike said to me, guess what Adam, Hence is back and I said oh great, and Mike started to tell me what you've been doing Hence, and then what led you to come back. I was like wait, wait, don't tell me yet, let's get this fresh on our podcast, because I think a lot of our listeners would appreciate to hear about your journey. How you came full circle so to speak.Mike: I was enormously excited when Hence came back — I think it was about three months ago. He started in 2006, in September, and ten years, we're enormously proud to have clients have been here for that long, and I just looked on the system, 351 sessions you've done with us over that time.Hence: Is that right, wow.Mike: That's an incredible thing, and once a week, it's actually — it averages, over the eight and a half years, it's about forty-one sessions per year, which is… that's pretty good, it takes into account vacations, time away for business trips or something like that, but yeah, it's been really exciting.Adam: Let's start the beginning, like what brought you here in the first place, back in 2006.Hence: Sure, I think to start off with, Adam is right that I've been interested in exercise and fitness and health for a very long time, and have been training since I was a teenager, mostly weight lifting and running, and along the way, have done a fair amount of reading and research, and going back to 2006, at that point in time, I was doing a lot of running. Or at least a lot of running for me, somewhere in the range of 25-35 miles a week, and I had ramped up to that level pretty quickly, and what I was finding was that, at the age of, I guess at that time 42, 41 actually, a lot of little things were starting to break down. Nothing major, but the running was starting to take a toll, and I was starting to notice, for example, that I was having trouble walking the stairs up out of the subway. It was starting to bug me, so my family and I were on vacation in San Diego, so I was out of New York, I was out of the routine, and I could get a little time to think. At the time, I happened to just be leafing through the local San Diego magazine, and they profiled some local trainers. One of whom focused on high-intensity training, and I called her up and just said tell me about what you do and can I come train, and she did, but said I'm sorry, I can't train you while you're here, where do you live? So I told her that my family and I lived in New York City, and she practically jumped through the phone at me and said oh wow, well Adam Zickerman is the one that I follow. You should read his book and you should go talk to him. Adam: I forgot that story.Mike: I looked it up on the sheet, I was like oh San Diego.Hence: It was a really random occurrence, so I read the book, it made sense, and at this point I really started to say to myself look, I've been pushing running for me, in my context, fairly aggressively, and it's having some negative results that I didn't anticipate and I certainly don't want. At the end of the day, I don't want to run so much I can't walk.Mike: Did you have a goal in mind when you decided to start running aggressively, 35, 40 miles a week? Were you going to do a marathon or something?Hence: I was never really thinking about doing a marathon, I was thinking about being able to run maybe a fast 10k or maybe a half marathon.Mike: Did you feel like you had to lose weight at the time, or you wanted to lose weight at the time?Hence: No, not particularly, that wasn't really in the parameters at that point, but the negative effects were really starting to pile up and so I said alright, I'm going to do something different. I'm going to go cold turkey, I'm going to stop running. I talked with Adam, we had a great conversation, what he said made a ton of sense and so I made a big leap, a big experimental leap and said alright. I'm done with running for now, and I'm just going to train once a week at InForm. The results were fantastic.Adam: I remember you telling me that you just gave up running cold turkey.Mike: I remember it too.Hence: I did, and I like running, I'm not somebody for whom running was — or even is a chore, I still like it, but I had to balance that versus the wear and tear that I was accruing. So I stopped, and started training once a week, very high intensity. It required something completely different of me which is to be highly focused for a short period of time and with really no possibility of oh okay, if I don't give a hundred percent, I'm going to train in another couple days anyway so it really doesn't matter. I really had to focus, and over the next several months, all my running aches and pains went away, which is fairly predictable. If I just stopped running, I'm sure a lot of those aches and pains and issues would have resolved themselves, but I did get stronger…Mike: Did it make sense to you immediately that the idea of a once a week workout was going to be effective, or did you actually have to take a leap of faith into that?Hence: There was definitely a leap of faith. I had done enough reading, not just Adam's book, but some other authors, to have the seed planted that maybe we all have been taught about high frequency exercise is really not the whole story. There's a lot of damage that can be built up over time that is understated from higher frequency methods of exercise, but I still had to make that leap, and again, I came to InForm as an experiment. Adam: How long did that experiment last?Hence: The initial phase of the experiment really started in September of '06, ran for about nine months where I really did nothing other then train once a week at InForm. I did no running, I did no weight lifting.Adam: What was your conclusion after the nine months?Hence: My conclusion was that it was just shockingly effective. The aches and pains from running went away, my ability to climb stairs came right back, I got a spring in my step again. Certainly got stronger, and sort of the most counterintuitive finding for me was that I lost weight. Now when I was running, I wasn't thinking about my weight, I hadn't weighed myself in a long time, but I did what I think happens to many other runners which is because I was running, call it 30 miles a week, I thought I could eat everything. When I finally stepped on the scales, I was pretty shocked at how heavy I had gotten. What happened over the next nine months is because I was only training once a week, I couldn't deceive myself that oh you're going to click off six miles tomorrow so you can go ahead and eat that extra piece of pizza or cake. I couldn't fool myself that way, so my diet improved and I don't remember the numbers right off the hand, but I did start to steadily lose weight. Which was an unanticipated benefit, and clearly just all around felt better.Mike: I was looking at his consult form, and what he put down for his regular dinner was PB&J sandwich and ice cream.Adam: Did that change too, did you change your eating when you started working out?Mike: Well first of all, this is New York so it's a very glamorous lifestyle, so this is dinner in New York.Mike: Hence is a portfolio manager, pretty busy, schedule.Hence: Pretty busy, not unlike most people, but pretty exotic and elaborate meals. Certainly, my diet changed, and I attribute it to finally, in my early 40's, coming to understand that you cannot out train a bad diet, and by decreasing the frequency of training, I couldn't deceive myself that I could just eat all I wanted. So that was an unanticipated benefit of moving to a high frequency, or high intensity, lower frequency form of training.Adam: Okay, so you had the nine-month experiment and then you were here for many years after that, so the experiment was over. You were kind of convinced and you stuck this out, you did it for once or twice a week, so I'm dying to know. When you left, what did you do?Hence: I didn't just say I'm out. I continued to do a fair amount of reading and research. What I was really doing was experimenting with something else, so reading McGuff, very helpful, learned a lot. I also learned to start to read some of what people had been writing about regular, old school weight lifting. The power lifts, dead lift, back squat, bench press. I though their claims were interesting —Adam: You're talking all free weights?Hence: Exactly, so Olympic bars, and I thought the claims of the school of thought were interesting. That these exercises are very functional, and if you think about it, there really isn't very little that doesn't revolve around a squat or a deadlift, or an overhead press or a bench press in one way or another. So I thought well this is interesting, and it seems to make some sense. Going in, I thought there were some issues that I would have difficulty with, such as barbell on your back, or lifting a barbell off the ground, and there's also just the time involved, because this method of exercise, the free weight training method of exercise does demand several days a week. So these were issues that I knew going in, but I was interested in the so-called functional benefits of this form of exercise. For some period of time, period of weeks I believe, I did some weight training away from InForm. Then I'd come to InForm and do my normal workout.Mike: I remember, you were splitting it up a little bit.Hence: I was splitting it up, and I was not going to learn what I wanted to learn by doing that, so I said alright. Let me take a break from InForm, let me see what I can learn in the free weight world and so I did. I was cognizant of the risks, so I made sure to learn how to do the more dangerous exercises the right way, really did invest quite a bit of time.Mike: I remember that I didn't even discourage Hence. I loved our conversations, I loved the exploration. It really forced me to even evaluate and think about all the other ways of doing things, and I remember just encouraging you to just be very mindful to what you were doing in regards to range of motion… I remember when we were working together and you were doing your workouts independently and coming into InForm, and you were showing me how you were doing some squats with weights, and you were going really deep into it. I said I'd be very careful about going that far down, almost where his butt was below the level of his knees.Hence: Like sumo wrestler low.Mike: Exactly, and I was like I need you to be very mindful about doing that because it could be — you're going to an extreme range of motion with a lot of resistance and those are usually what causes those breaking points.Adam: It's hard to bite your tongue, because when you hear somebody say that they're going to do a dangerous exercise safely, that's like — you know what I hear when I hear that? When someone says that, to me, it's like saying I'm going to play Russian Roulette safely. There is no safe way to play Russian Roulette, you are eventually, or could eventually, get hurt and regardless of how careful you are — only because, the nature of let's say a barbell squat is you have this long lever with weights at the end of it, being supported by a structure, a skeletal structure, a spine in particular. If you go to the left or right a little bit too much, it's all over and it's just hard to defend against that long term that you can get away with that. There's no reason to do it if you can get the same effect of an exercise like that from a leg press or something where you don't take those kind of spinal risks, but I'm digressing.Hence: Right, well what I found from switching over to free weights is that the exercises are very effective. I felt like I definitely got stronger in some really basic movements, I learned how to squat, I think about as safely as one can, and I learned how to deadlift actually quite safely, and I enjoyed the movement of those exercises. They were pleasant to do, but — and I was able to progress and move the weight up and all that, but over a period of — I guess it was a total of about eighteen months, I got to the point where I had gotten more capable of lifting heavier weight, but to the point where I really believed that I was starting to get to a tipping point. Where yeah, I had gotten stronger and yes my technique was pretty good, but if I were going to get stronger from there, I was going to be taking some risks. It really took me that long also to really understand that even as the weight got heavier and even as my technique stayed pretty solid, that I could not generate the intensity safely that I wanted to achieve. I would feel like maybe I have another —Adam: What happens when you have a barbell on your shoulders and you're reaching muscle failure?Mike: Or after you've failed on let's say, doing dumbbell flys, how do you safely put those weight down? There's a lot of different scenarios.Adam: So you didn't have a trainer Hence?Hence: Well I did early on just to get the technique right, but then I was really training myself. It became really clear that there were times when I might have, let's say, half a rep left in me but I had to rack the weight, just for safety's sake. After getting — I never really got injured, I got a little tweaked once in a while, but I never got truly injured. Certainly witnessed a couple things in the gym that were a little disconcerting, but never myself got hurt, but after I got to a certain level at the major exercises, it was just really clear that I just couldn't safely progress. Mike: Like an intense stimulus, to go forward with it.Hence: Right, just could not generate the intensity with the safety that I wanted.Adam: It makes total sense. So I guess that's when you started thinking about InForm again.Hence: Right, so I went back, I reread the Power of Ten, I reread McGuff, and I think as with any discipline, it's one thing to read the book once or twice. It's another thing to read the book and then go experiment, try something, live it, and then go back and reread it and say oh, that's what McGuff meant. Now I understand what he's talking about, or that's what Adam meant. Mike: Real understandings, I think is a process like that often times. To read it you get the information, but as you said, to live it and then to go back and look at the text and what it's all about, that's when it really seeps in when you've done that a little bit.Hence: The time I spent training with free weights is absolutely not wasted at all, I learned a lot from doing it, I'm glad I did it. I saw some tremendous athletes workout, and I got a sense of what that world was all about but there's a difference between training for a particular sport, whether it's Olympic weight lifting, whether it's power lifting, versus training for health and strength and general well being. I think one of the things that comes through in McGuff and that Adam tried to tell me ten years ago and I wasn't really ready to understand it, is the difference between fitness for a particular activity — whether that's a big bench press or whether that's a fast 10K, and health. The two really are quite different, and I certainly have known people who are tremendously fit at a given activity, marathon running be a prime example.Mike: Or football players, they are extremely fit and being able to run and jump and sprint and tackle, but they're dealing with a tremendous amount of pain.Hence: Health issues —Adam: Well that's the thing, fitness is not — being really fit does not guarantee being very healthy. You can become fit and not undermine your health, or based on how you determine the choice of how you get fit, the whole reason I chose to practice a form of safe, high intensity training is because why in the name of fitness, or really why in the name of health should your — I mean it's ironic that a fitness program would undermine your health in the long run. Sports are one thing, if you want to play a sport and excel at a certain skill and activity, recreational pursuit, and it happens to make you strong and fit, so be it, but do it because you love the sport. Not because you think it's going to make you fit. The idea of choosing a sport to get fit is a little bit backwards. You should choose a sport because you love that sport and some sports, depending upon the sport of course, and the intensity of that sport, can get you very fit, can get you strong. But if your idea is just to get strong to live a healthy, long, strong life, choosing a sport for that purpose is probably not the best idea. Choosing an exercise program that is going to make you strong and is going to delay that aging process, truly delay that aging process, and not at the same time undermine your health in the process and the things that I'm talking about is that you were talking about before. The arthritis, the pain in the joints, all those kinds of overtraining injuries that can occur. It's not worth it. Sports are worth it if you love sports, but if you just want to get fit, again, sports are not necessarily the best choice.Mike: It's tough because often times those things are insidious. They don't happen on day one, they happen on day 400, and you're like oh wow. That little tweak which you can tolerate on the 20th day of doing something, and even on the 80th day, all of a sudden comes something that's like wow, now my shoulder is really bothering me. Those are the type of things that kind of sneak up on you. One of the things that I really admire and I try to continue to apply to my life as a trainer and everything is the idea to explore and to try things out. I feel like that's how everything, even the power of ten evolved, is seeing what else out there. Obviously you want to have a good head on your shoulders and make sure you're trying to take relative precautions and just reasonable sense over whatever you're trying to do. Going back to power of ten, you can achieve the intensity, we know that the intense stimulus on the muscles is really what makes the adaptation a meaningful adaptation, and if you can do that in a safe way, then why wouldn't you try.Adam: Consistently.Hence: I mean I think the — whether it's running, the weight lifting, both of which I've experimented with to quite an extent, they don't generate the intensity that we get through this form of exercise, and if you read through McGuff, there are tremendous metabolic benefits that come from achieving that level of intensity. Adam: McGuff is talking about a lot of research that has been going on out there about how intensity is what is driving these health benefits, these physiological adaptations. It's the intensity, it's not the duration of the exercise. You can eventually get these adaptations with slow, steady state activities,  but the risks to do so add up. For the same adaptations, you don't need to take those risks by just increasing the intensity and shortening the time of the workout, and doing it in a safe manner.Mike: And also the time in-between workouts. It seems like it is still very contrary to what people think about exercise. Like more is better, but if you do things intensely, whatever the activity is, whether it's boxing or running, weight training, yoga. The more intense the stimulus, the more time your body needs to recover in order for it to actually adapt and change.Hence: I thought the number that you mentioned earlier was interesting. So you said that I've logged, what 341?Mike: 351, yeah.Hence: So 351 — over eight and a half total years. So 351 sounds like a large number, and I think it should be actually to be considered a large number but if you're doing a conventional type of workout, you would triple that workout.Mike: Well you think about if it's —Adam: Well how many workouts a year does that turn out to be?Mike: It was 41 a year on the average.Adam: There are people that think you should do that in two months.Mike: Well the prescription and like the American Heart Association says three moderate or two high-intensity a week, or actually, some people prescribe even more than that. They say four or five days a week, but let's say three days a week, over three years, you do 350.Hence: I think also there is a psychology there too that I've found, that I have trouble with. If you believe that you have to run four or five days a week, at first it's kind of a cool challenge. It's like oh I'm going to go do this, it's going to be awesome, but then you start to realize okay, what am I having to not do. I'm having to — I'm not able to help my family the way I should, I'm not able to — it really takes a lot of time.Adam: We've got lives to live.Hence: And then that understanding of effectively the opportunity cost of what I am not able to do because I'm doing this, it starts to erode at least my willingness to do that exercise, whereas here, look, training once a week is great. Going back to when I first started training with Adam ten years ago, I asked the question a lot of clients ask which is well what should I do on vacation, and Adam said nothing. I'm as Type A as anyone and I was like, what do you mean nothing? I took him at his word and I actually did go away for a week and did nothing, and was shocked to then come back and find that that extra rest resulted in my strength that following workout being quite a bit better.Mike: It's consistent almost in every case when people take — when people come back from their vacation. They make their personal best or they make a jump, just by having that extra rest, it's amazing how counterintuitive that is. Adam: That's why I always like to tell people to not do anything on vacation, just enjoy your vacation. Don't stress out about where you're going to exercise. Besides usually the gyms at the hotel suck anyway. So that was great, Hence, you know, I learned a lot, it was great to hear that story. I'm glad you're back, and I hope — and Mike you did a great job, you two as a team did a great job over the years, and I love the communication. So kudos to you Mike, and to you guys, and how you work through that. There's no defensiveness, it was truly an attempt to discover what was best and it's a great story. I hope for those listening out there, whether you exercise all the time and used to do what Hence does, or want to experiment with free weights or realize that maybe less is more, there's something for everybody in this I think. So thank you very much Hence for joining us. It's been a great help.Mike: It's great Hence that you were on the podcast. Thank you very much for being here.